A Story We Must Tell

You won’t believe this story.  It’ll break your heart.

A medical student, who was firmly pro-abortion, had the opportunity to witness an abortion.  This is what he saw:

When I entered the operating room, it felt like any other I had ever been in. On the table in front of me, I saw a woman, legs up as if delivering a child although she was asleep. Next to her was a tray of instruments for the abortion and a vacuum machine for suctioning the fetal tissues from the uterus. The doctors put on their gowns and masks and the procedure began. The cervix was held open with a crude metal instrument and a large transparent tube was stuck inside of the woman. Within a matter of seconds, the machine’s motor was engaged and blood, tissue, and tiny organs were pulled out of their environment into a filter. A minute later, the vacuum choked to a halt. The tube was removed, and stuck to the end was a small body and a head attached haphazardly to it, what was formed of the neck snapped. The ribs had formed with a thin skin covering them, the eyes had formed, and the inner organs had begun to function. The tiny heart of the fetus, obviously a little boy, had just stopped — forever. The vacuum filter was opened, and the tiny arms and legs that had been torn off of the fetus were accounted for. The fingers and toes had the beginnings of their nails on them. The doctors, proud of their work, reassembled the body to show me. Tears welled up in my eyes as they removed the baby boy from the table and shoved his body into a container for disposal.

He’s been pro-life ever since.  Though this is a tragic, terrible story, it’s important that we tell the truth about this horrific practice!

Read his testimony here.

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  • celestiallady

    So very sad but yes it needs to be told. I only hope it reaches those who need to see it.

  • cezzwho

    If we took pregnant dogs & publicly aborted a litter every week, how many weeks before the public would become outraged? I don’t think it would last til the 2nd week.

    • Lindsay

      Vets abort pregnant animals all the time. My friend adopted a stray cat. When she found out it was pregnant, the vet “took care of it” and spayed the cat all at once.

      • Jeff

        Yep. Its part of nature. Clearly every “life” is precious to them until it exits the womb. Then who cares…not my problem!!!

        • S_O_T_A

          Who says you can’t do both? But nobody is dismembering children en masse outside the womb so where do you think the priority should be? Prove to us you are not simply diverting attention away from what matters more.

  • http://www.youtube.com/channel/UCJBG9zqKlqSMeoGWk8Sabog iizthatiiz

    was tuff to read that .. prolly harder to print .. thanks for your courage B

    • Jeff

      Who is B?

  • Shen Gill

    sick,when you have no regard for life…..the most innocent….

  • EdMallory

    What kind of sick, heartless humans could do this? God will abort them from his eternity.

  • Richard Smit

    Abortion is murder and shouldnt be legal at all!!

    • Joan

      Great to hear your opinion Richard, now how about that adoption process? How soon till you get your new child?

  • jduncan395

    Thanks Bristol for posting this! I’m so glad that pre-med student was changed by witnessing this horrific procedure.
    Love your blog,
    Janice
    (I was a single pregnant woman in 1981, was told I had “options” but i knew abortion was NOT an option for me, I gave birth to a beautiful baby boy with Down Syndrome and have never regretted not choosing one of those options! Tyler will be 32 on Monday, he’s a blessing!)

  • https://youtu.be/h82D5ZvcALM CrustyB

    Pro-abortion people kid themselves that murder is OK. They’re murderously delusional.

    • Joan

      we as a country cant even agree on killing convicted murderers, There is no way anyone will agree on the abortion issue either.

  • $3838536

    Wow, scary & sickening. Thanks for helping us understand the horror of infanticide, Bristol. God bless you.

  • https://youtu.be/h82D5ZvcALM CrustyB

    Yes, it’s a lie to cover up how harmless abortion really is!
    Nitwit.

  • southernCAbelle

    Stupid? I have a good friend who years ago used to work for an abortionist. She’s told me several stories just like this, and even some more gruesome. She’s now very pro-life. How in the world do you think an abortion is performed? We also have the technology we didn’t have many years ago and can see for ourselves how early a baby is formed and what they are like. I think it’s ridiculous you are calling other people stupid when you are obviously misinformed. Thanks Bristol for posting this.

  • CzarOfTruth

    Alice please seek help with the issues you are dealing with. Whether this story is true as written is not the question. It states the procedure of abortion as it happens. A American tragedy.

  • Linda Knoll

    Heartbreaking! Thank you for sharing this!

  • carleen gowen

    It made me a little sick but a lot angry at the cruel things the goes on to murder a baby, animals treat their babies well , so these people cant even be call animals, thank you Bristol for sharing this story, I wonder if the people who do this ever think about their moms giving birth to them instead of aborting them?

    • seastar80

      Actually, some animals eat their young…

      In other scenarios, animals may reject their young after they are born, perhaps sensing genetic abnormalities that will prevent them from surviving in the wild. This ultimately leads to starvation for the young animal or death from exposure to the elements. The paradox of mother nature is that it can be both beautiful and cruel.

      • Jeff

        Only the liberal, godless animals do that!!!

  • David

    I had no idea about how the procedure was performed.
    It would be rough to witness something like that.
    Thanks for sharing, Bristol.

  • dmac8889

    He had a RIGHT TO LIFE, and it was taken from him. Somebody needs to define these actions other than me, because I know what it is.

  • $70129662

    I can’t believe there are people who still do not know how an abortion is performed. That is why the media, IRS and Dems so desperately want to silence pro-lifers, because if we don’t tell the truth about abortion, who will? Thank you Bristol, keep up the good work.

    Liberals are outraged about a picture of a dead animal (hunting), but a picture of a newborn baby’s spinal cord snipped, that does not offend them, they looked at the Gosnell pictures and went ahead (Obama) and said “God bless Planned Parenthood”.

    In 2009 when an abortion doctor was killed Obama warned that kind of thing will not be tolerated (I agree), but when Gosnell was exposed, thousands of newborn babies slaugthered at his clinic, not a word from the president..

  • Kristy Patullo

    So heartbreaking, Bristol. Very powerful testimony. Every man and woman should have to witness an abortion (on tape) before making that final decision. A visual speaks volumes. God bless this man for coming to his senses.

  • otlset

    Relax people. According to Bob Sideswiper’s “Spectrum of Personhood”, the baby didn’t even qualify as a real person yet! So all those gory details don’t matter. No harm, no foul!

  • 2C714

    Thank you for posting this, Bristol.
    EVERYONE should be aware of HOW these precious babies are literally — murdered.

    • Joan

      How many unwanted children have you adopted? I think the answer to that is … none. It is easy to say you are against abortion when you do not have to solve the problem of unwanted children spending their lives looking for forever families.

      • sarah5775

        If you see a homeless man about to get hit by a car, and you personally don’t have the money or resources to give him a place to live and a job, should you stand aside and let the car hit him? Abortion is killing a baby. Everyone should be against it, if they are in the position to adopt or not.

        • Joan

          The belief that abortion is “killing a baby” is subjected to ones belief system. The argument you propose about a homeless man about to get hit by a car, makes no sense in this situation. Unless you find homes and financial support for all these babies you plan to prevent from being aborted, how is society going to deal with it? Like they are doing now? Orphanages like those in Romania? Foster homes that are no more than factories? All I am saying is that you cannot only look at one part of this problem. It has to be looked at as a whole. If you do not have the money or resources to take care of all these unwanted children, what is your plan for them? Who is going to take care of them? welfare? Can you with good conscious leave them with the women who did not want them to begin with?

          How can anyone promote pro-life without offering a viable solution? saying abortion should be illegal isn’t enough. Go the extra mile and offer solutions to fix the broken system. Otherwise it is like Marie Antoinette telling the hungry villagers who complain they have no bread, to eat cake.

          • otlset

            Hmmm, I guess you’re right. Go ahead and kill them then.

            No wait, here’s an idea. How about having teenager’s tubes tied until they’re 21 to help prevent unwanted pregnancies? Big government could spearhead such a program through local school districts, and of course the unlimited funds of the federal government will pay for what will undoubtedly be a big success a’ la Obamacare!

          • Joan

            Taking away the right of a woman to have an abortion is big government intervention, hiding under the guise of ” God says”. Everyone has the right to do what they see fit for themselves. otiset, how many unwanted children have you adopted?

  • Charlotte Nader

    Bristol, You are looking amazing and like you are thriving in life. I am so happy for you! Can you share you’re diet and exercise plans if you have any you follow. I’d love to know how you keep yourself looking so well and happy. I’m so proud all your hard work has paid off over the years. You are such an inspiration!

    Charlotte

  • Cheryl

    If you really want to know how it is done, perhaps you should see it for yourself instead of reading the bull crap that people post. Regardless of the commercial…not everything on the internet is true. I worked in a clinic, and this story is SO EXAGGERATED, but getting the attention that it was intended to. Believe nothing that you hear/read and only half of what you see…or you are surely easily lead down the wrong road. And judge NOT… lest ye will be judged.

    • JoAnn

      To YOU it may be “so exaggerated”. He may have paid more attention to every single detail than you did. Everyone has their own way of seeing things if they truly pay attention. Don’t knock his story because it was a different experience than yours.

      • Cheryl

        I assure you that he did not. No snaping necks. No limbs ripped apart. It is instaneous & painless. With the fetus in tact. Far cry from his version. I was in those rooms day after day. Im not saying it to be a “party type” experience. But its not inhumane or cruel torture.

    • jesshermiller

      I really hate when people say judge not lest ye be judged out of context. You’re making that verse fit your own ends. What that verse is actually talking about is hypocrites not judging others whom are engaged in the same sinful behavior they are. If Christians did not judge how would you know what behaviors were right or wrong? We are most certainly called to judge but not condemn. They don’t mean the same thing so Christians should truly stop using them out of context.

      • guest

        Well said! The culture throwing about the “don’t judge me” slogan now days is just a fear tactic to try to get people to be quiet about standing up for what is right and wrong. There are absolutes of right and wrong…people don’t have to follow them..and they want an excuse to just do whatever they feel like doing.

      • Cheryl

        I hate it as well. It does not say you may not judge only if you do the same. Learnibg right from wrong is taught not by anyones authority to judge as long as they arent being hypocrytes. Judgement is given to 1 & 1 only. Mans judgement is not approved as teaching tool. So i used it in context.

    • jesshermiller

      By the way if you truly think that just because this wasn’t the experience where you worked you must be very naive. Look up Kermit gosnell and his abortion clinic house of horror for which he is now serving 3 life sentences.

      • Cheryl

        Naive. Doubt that. If hes serving 3 life sentences for a legal procedure, then its OBVIOUS that he was NOT preforming the LEGAL procedure. Giving no credance to what really does or doesnt happen during legal abortions.

    • Methadras

      I will judge and stand up to judgment. In that regard, I welcome the judgment of fighting abortion. The wanton, cowardly, unnatural, and senseless deliberate destructive murder of an unborn human being. Even if this story is an exaggeration, the idea that it even occurs should be a clarion call for those that wish to see it stopped. Can I ask you how you have been affected by working in such a clinic knowing that life is being extinguished deliberately? I ask this in good faith. Are you numb to it? Do you ignore it? Do you shove any feelings aside as you walk the halls of the clinic? How do you cope or not cope with it? I’m genuinely curious.

    • sarah5775

      At seven weeks, an unborn baby has arms, legs, feet and toes. What do you think it looks like when subjected to a high powered suction machine?

      Here is a site about fetal development (unaffiliated wtih the pro-life movement or any religious group) where you can see a baby moving around at seven weeks in the womb.

      Anyone can see that stories like this are what really happens in abortion clinics.

      • Joan

        Sarah, if you do not like the idea of an abortion, do not have one. Everyone has the right to make that decision for themselves. Everyone has their own moral compass and the intellect to figure out their own lives. No one needs someone else to guide their decisions, we are all adults.

      • Cheryl

        Yes, you can see the arms & legs. As well as the mostly developed skelatal system including fingers & toes. I didnt dispute that. What I dispute, as being as an employee, is the gruesome description of snapped necks & reconstruction of body parts. These arent done in backalleys with coat hangers. They equipment expands the cervix. The vac QUIcKLY expells the fetus IN TACT. No limbs being ripped apart leaving living fetus to suffer. Its instantaneous & painless. Not the cruelty as described.

  • Becky Hamshar

    When I was a senior in High school (many years ago) I had the opportunity to research abortions for a speech class. That research affected me to the very core of my being and has stuck with me ever since. Thank you for the candid picture of what a procedure can bring about. I am pro-life, with the exception of abortions only in very extreme circumstances. Keep being strong, Bristol. Hold your head high and reach beyond the stars. Much love, Becky Hamshar: beckyhamshar.blogspot.com.

    • guest

      I’d always said I was against abortion except in the case of rape or incest..right? But then the daughter I adopted was born. A case of both rape and incest. Something beautiful can come out of something so horrific! That bio mom has such courage and didn’t punish an innocent life because of a tragedy beyond words. Someday my daughter will tell her story and people will see that beauty can come from ashes.

  • Ron Gilmer

    I was speaking with a neighbor in 2008 about abortion and how could a Christian condone such! The reply was “it is in the constitution?” Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness was the answer! Thank you Bristol so very much! I think I will place this on my web page when I get it finished! And what is so frightening is the ignorance of all of the liberals supporting people who support out and out murdering of the innocent!

  • LuAnn Holleman

    I am equally as saddened by your ignorance, Joan. So, in your opinion, it is better to murder a baby than to have it LIVE in any condition other than wealth. I’m sorry, but wealth does not create happiness or intelligence. More people have succeeded coming from poverty than being born to wealthy parents. Those of you who are pro-abortion(murder) have one thing in common, you were given life.

    • Joan

      LuAnn, your comment indicates a misinterpretation or a significant lack of understanding of my comments. I said that without having any experience seeing unwanted children living in the horrid conditions of abuse and mind numbing poverty, Bristol’s opinions are based on a lack of reality. In reality, being against abortion does not fix the problem. Being pro-adoption, does. It is ignorant to take the stand that abortion is murder, when so many children are abused, murdered and tormented by their parents and caregivers, that there are horrid conditions in orphanages where babies are never picked up or cuddled or receive the basic needs humans deserve.

      So when I see someone making blanket statements that abortion is murder without showing any interest in dealing with the abused tossed away children that are on this earth, I shake my head, at their ignorance and am disgusted by their lack of service to those in need. Women do not want to hear they should not have an abortion, they need to hear what can be done with a child they can’t care for. Wake up LuAnn, very few people are adopting children with disabilities, I guess it is ok for you to not pay attention to that very real need, and just assume someone else is doing it. Not a christian attitude at all.

      • Methadras

        Joan, I am and was a product of mind numbing poverty. I could have easily been one of the 40 – 50 million unborn American children. You cannot and should not equate as a moral equivalence that abortion as murder being tied to the horror of abuse and unwanted children. The two are not synonymous. One is done without regard to the unborn child, the other is done with either deliberate or undeliberate regard to an already living child. One never had a choice, the other may find its circumstances changed. I can say I am one of those changes. Even for disabled children, what is more merciful than being alive even if it is with an infirmity. Do they not deserve a chance to affect their lives and the lives of others? If they were aborted, you would never know. Again, this isn’t about being a Christian, but rather a simple argument about whether we as a people or as individuals should give life a chance to become something more.

        • Joan

          Abortion is merely a lesson for the two spirits involved in it. The one who aborts, the one who is aborted. When the spiritual lessons are given and learned, that spirit will return in another incarnation. There is no death and there is no end of life, it continues infinitely.

          Merciful? It is merciful to find homes for all the children that have been thrown away and to ensure that every child that has been put into “the system”, finds forever families. when that job has been completed, then address the issue of abortion, because then you will be offering those who would otherwise abort, a viable alternative.

          it is not a moral issue, as morals are subjective and dependent upon those who believe certain ideals or not.
          It is an issue about fixing a broken system so that women have viable alternatives. Remembering of course that they did not get pregnant alone. There are men involved here too, making them more accountable would also be helpful.

      • guest

        I’ve met MANY people in the foster care system who are the most loving wonderful people who ONLY foster and/or adopt children with disabilities! It’s hard work and a challenge and they do it with grace and honor. These people do exist – just because society doesn’t hear about all the good people doesn’t mean it’s not happening. It is! Media selectively chooses what we hear about and it sure isn’t this side of it. I’ve seen it! I was absolutely amazed at what these foster/adopting families do for disabled children!

        • Joan

          I agree there are loving foster families, but there are not enough. There are still orphanages worldwide filled with unwanted children, and foster homes are no replacement for “forever homes”, our focus needs to be placed on finding families for the children that are already here, before worrying about fetuses that are sent back to spirit.

  • Vicki Smyth Douglas

    An Opinion, is Just that… and Everybody has one…I really don’t see how putting DOWN a person for not “experiencing” a Situation in life makes that person Ignorant. We are faced with many challenges and Choices in our life time, and if ONE person can help ONE other person in a challenge they are facing, then Kudos to them…
    Continue your mission Bristol…..I’m sure you’ve REACHED a few and opened their eyes…
    and… HAPPY BIRTHDAY to YOU!!

    • Joan

      Taking a stand on pro-life without having a means to care for the children that are left unwanted, abused and without forever homes, does not help anyone. Not everyone has the means to afford to care for their grandchildren because their teenage daughter got pregnant. What happens to those babies? An opinion is useless unless it offers concrete assistance. Ms Palin’s time would better be served helping to make the adoption process easier so people that are looking to give a child a forever home can do so!

      • Lisa M.

        Very well said, on all counts (and posts).

      • Methadras

        Adoption is always an option. There are laws on the books that allow mothers to give up their children with no questions ask to a Hospital, a fire station, a police station, or a school. At least the law in this regard has a merit of compassion. Young girls get pregnant, but we as a society must make sure that if in the event that they choose to have their children that we are their to support them, not by government fiat, but as a society and if they choose so, that adoption is there for them. You are right, adoption in the US should be as easy as possible. Unfortunately it isn’t and that has been a chief complaint of mine considering stories that are in the news and in the media of people seeking children outside of the US because it’s cheaper, faster, and generally relegated to people of means. This must change, but what must more fundamentally change is that the idea of abortion is a means to simply snuff out the life of an unborn child. Life must be given a chance to flourish and grow.

        Joan, would you be willing to help Ms. Palin in the process of making the adoption process in your area easier? Be of good cheer, you aren’t alone in your sentiment, but also remember that people who are pro-life are not the enemy. We want to see life given the opportunity that it deserves to be born and grow. That’s it. No need for religious diatribes. No need for faith based arguments. Let life have a chance. Let an unborn child have a shot at being something if not great.

        • Joan

          Pro-lifers generally are content to picket and spew their religious venom to everyone who will listen, complete with doctored pictures and sad little stories about abortions. But where are they in the aiding and assistance of all the thrown away children?
          Ms Palin is not interested in finding homes for these children. She waves her flag, tells her sad stories, and does nothing else. She is part of the problem. Raising money to protect the unborn while ignoring the abused and abandoned children that are already here. That disgusts me. Take care of the ones in need first, show women there are ways to find good homes for their children and abortions will be reduced. By not providing an alternative, you cannot fix the problem.

          Some of these children are treated horribly, left unloved and undernourished, to live a life without love and comfort. Where are the pro-lifers? Where are their answers to the questions regarding adopting these children? They fall silent, no answers, no help. I have helped. I have adopted. I have raised children that no one else wants. I have seen children who do not grow because they lack love in their lives, who hide bread under their pillows because they often go hungry.

          While pro-lifers stand there and try to make rules for everyone else. Hypocrites!

      • sarah5775

        If you are walking down the street and see a homeless man about to get hit by a car, and you pull him out of the way, and save his life- is the act of heroism decreased by the fact that you may not have the resources to hire him and give him a place to live?

  • guest

    I’d always said I was against abortion except in the case of rape or incest..right? But then the daughter I adopted was born. A case of both rape and incest. I”ve changed my opinion. Something beautiful can come out of something so horrific! That bio mom has such courage and didn’t punish an innocent life because of a tragedy beyond words. Someday my daughter will tell her story and people will see that beauty can come from ashes.

    • Joan

      The beauty is YOU, “guest”, you are the one that gave an unwanted child a forever home. You are the one that took action and not just ranted about the evils of abortion. YOU are the true hero and I applaud you. You have shown God’s Grace by loving your daughter. If more people followed your lead, the world would be a much better place. Blessings to you!!

      • guest

        It was EASY to adopt by beautiful daughter! For her bio mom to carry that child to term and give birth as a 15 year old girl raped by her half brother. She was the hero! That is the story to be told to encourage more girls not to abort but to find loving homes for these cases.
        My daughter is being photographed for a modeling book, she works with children, she is strong and bold in her faith and is the most kind, tenderhearted 16 year old girl you would ever meet. Truly great beauty can come out of ashes!

        • kc102

          I wish I could love this not just like it! God Bless You and your beautiful daughter!

  • Randall Haugen

    Abortion IS a womans choice,,FREEDOM Remember????

    • DavidSayre

      Claiming the Freedom to own another person and the Freedom to kill that other person, is not Freedom. This is not, all that different, from the Freedom slave owners claimed 150 years ago. I believe that 150 years from now, we will look back on this alleged freedom in the same way we look back on slavery. When a law, so fractures thousands of years of civil ethics, as abortion laws have done… such laws become juridically invalid, in fact, the cease being laws at all, they become barbaric acts of violence.
      In all cases, when your choice is between civilization and savagery, it is always wise to choose civilization!

      • Joan

        David, that would depend on whos’ version of civilization you are looking at. The native americans had a beautiful and powerful civilization, that the white man crushed because they felt their ideas were better. There are many beautiful indigenous tribes ruined by so called, civilization. I am wary of anyone telling me their way is more “civilized”. Telling people what they can, or cannot do, does not always work so well, look at Hitler…. Freedom is a balancing act. Not everyone has the same belief system. Not everyone believes in the same religion. Those that do not wish to have an abortion, do not have to, but making it a law for everyone, seems communistic. What next? Burning witches?…. oh yea, that has been done too….

        • DavidSayre

          Joan, Who brought up religion? For some people, their faith beliefs system see abortion as bad, but there are other faith beliefs that sacrifice their young on alters.

          The abortion debate, like slavery, is a matter of civil rights. In parts of the Middle East and in North and Central Africa, there are Islamic groups that to this day support slavery, honor killing, banning women from driving, voting, etc. These are civil rights issues, as is abortion. Abortion boils down to a pseudo fractured idea that an unborn child is the property of the woman, to be cherished
          or brutally murdered at her discretion.

          As is clearly spelled out in our founding documents. Our civil rights do not come from government, but from “our creator”. … I did not write the Declaration of Independence, but like most Americans, I agree with it. Our Western culture is the product of thousands of years of primarily Judo-Christian ethics that, like it or not, historically form the bases of our laws. These are the forces that formed the civil society. There has always been counter forces wishing to undermine, that which is. Our culture is based in the truth of our history and our founding. The left’s feeble attacks may seem at times to be succeeding, but it only seems that way.
          Truth, crushed to the ground. Will always rise again.

          • Joan

            David, your views are frightening. Your opinion of women is archaic, and your interpretation of civil rights has little to do with reality. It is really not a discussion about abortion vs forced pregnancy, but a matter of what the pro-lifers plan to do with all the unwanted children that are already alive, and living in situations of abuse and neglect. None of you seem to want to address that issue, as it is easier to give your little fire and brimstone speeches without having to do the real hard work, and adopt any of these homeless children. Until you can offer that kind of help, your motivation can only been seen as adding to the enslavement of women, and abuse of children.

          • DavidSayre

            How are my view frightening? It’s the pro-abortion camp that has slaughtered 50+ million children in the USA alone. In my little central Iowa pro-life group, about a third of our families have adopted children. Abortion is the ultimate child abuse. The statistical rates of child abuse, both pre
            Roe v Wade and post, demonstrate absolutely no statistical correlation with child abuse. Attempting to connect child abuse and abortion rates is just another pro-abortion, false flag claim, not supported by any facts or studies.

            As for my views on woman being archaic, you don’t know my views on women, other than my objection to granting the private right of one human being to claim ownership property rights on another human being, including the private right to order the death of that person. I thought that foolishness ended with the civil war.

            The first civil right of any person in the United States, is the right to live. The right to not be murdered without due process involving serious criminal guilt. I say the “first” right, as spelled out in our first founding document. The very document we celebrate every year, on the 4th of July! “… endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.” For if we do not have a basic civil right to
            be alive, what good are any other rights?

            As I said earlier, I don’t insert religion into this debate
            whatsoever. I’ve based everything I have said on our founding documents and the civil rights they afford all Americans. So I don’t understand your accusation that I gave some “fire and brimstone speech” .. I did not. I spoke only of civil rights. Life is a civil right, and it is one that
            should be protected by law, as it was for 197 years of American history. As it has in most Western cultures for 5000+ years of world history. I’m not saying there has not been a few pockets of barbarism, here and there… mostly in Socialist states that traditionally don’t respect anyone’s rights. Oh well….

          • Joan

            fetuses do not have civil rights because they are not considered viable outside the host body, therefore they are not a person. Your arguments do not make any type of legal sense.
            you still have not answered my question as to who will take care of all these unwanted babies? who will pay for them? who will raise them? You are so busy making your case for your point twisting the constitution to fill your needs that you have made no statements on how to fix the problem.

          • DavidSayre

            So, your argument is, “fetuses do not have civil rights because they are not considered viable outside the host body, therefore they are not a person.”

            A wise person once observed that if a person does not learn from the mistakes of history, they will be doomed to
            repeat them.

            The Dred Scott decision of the United States Supreme Court, in 1857, is look back upon today, as likely the worst decision in the history of the court. As now, the Supreme Court decision of Row v Wade has way too much in common with Dred Scott.

            In Dred Scott, the decision favored slavery by a vote of 7-2, as in Roe, a vote of 7-2 on the court in favor of abortion.

            In Dred Scott, the court ruled Blacks were not persons… as in Roe, the court ruled the unborn are denied personhood.

            In Dred Scott, the court ruled Black were the property of their owners, and could be sold, traded or killed at the owner’s discretion… as in Roe, the court ruled the unborn is the property of the mother, to be kept, adopted out, or killed at the mother’s discretion.

            In Dred Scott it was argued that abolitionist should not impose their morality on slave-owners.. In Roe we are
            told pro-lifers should not impose their morality on mothers who choose to kill their children.

            As to pro-life people not caring for these untimely children, the left feels free to kill them, that is bunk. When you consider the tens of thousands of people on hopeless waiting list to adopt, but there are no children to be had…
            unless of course you leave the United States to find them. You want to witness real discouragement? Call, any social services office in the United States, secular, catholic charities and Lutheran charities as these are the largest
            services, and see how many people are on their hopelessly long waiting list to adopt. As to this debate, we are getting too far into the weeds here as adoption and fostering is a discussion for another time.

            Abortion, being one of the sacred sacraments of the false religion of progressivism, socialism and communism. We must never loose track of the reality of this unholy triumvirate. History is replete with examples of mega-death that is produced by these failed systems.

          • Joan

            I believe that fetuses that cannot live outside the womb are not subject to civil rights. As civil rights pertain to human beings, and a fetus is not one until it is born. but That is not the real problem, the problem with pro-lifers is that they have no solution to the problem of what to do with unwanted children.

          • DavidSayre

            “I believe…” You are welcome to your own beliefs, but not your own facts. When a forensic pathologist finds a hair at a crime scene and can genetically determine it is from a human being and not a dog or woolly mammoth, the definition of humanity is clearly related to genetics. Every cell of an unborn child’s body is genetically human, but even more than that! It has a genetic code different from both the father and the mother. The unborn child is a separate individual human being that has never existed in the history of the world, and will never exist again… a true individual.

            All you seem to be debating, are a matter of law. Matter of personal property. Your debate, is frightenly close to the same debate, used by slave owners in the mid 1800s.

            As to what we do with a child born, who is not desired by the child’s mother… again, there are tens of thousands of people on waiting list to adopt. (not so unwanted, after all), Bringing up what happens to the child after it’s born, is really, a diversionary tactic, a distraction from the real issue. There are millions of poor people in this world. Unfortunately, history is replete with examples of how the political south paws of the Fabian stripe have dealt with what they call “useless eaters,” and history has shown the million murdered, I guess, for their own good? History has shown, over and over, just how disastrously dangerous the path of the death culture is.

          • Joan

            The real issue is that there are millions of children alive in this world without families. Many are abused by the people that gave birth to them, more than a few have been murdered by parents that did not want them in the first place. This is the real issue. Adoption costs way over 20K, and it takes years to get a child. Your idea that there are many people waiting for children, and therefore easy to get a baby is ridiculous, you have no idea what you are talking about. Fix the adoption system. then talk about the abortion issue, as you have it backwards.
            Being a man, you can never understand this issue. Being a man, you just want to control women. Do you have any idea how many deadbeat dads are out there? Impregnating women and then refusing to take the financial responsibility for them? why should the women be left with the burden? Abortion gives women back the power that men have desperately tried to take away.

          • DavidSayre

            There has always been children without families, there has
            always been poverty… and there always will be. I reject the term unwanted, maybe unwanted by some, maybe just
            untimely. Here we go again with the utterly undocumented linkage of an unplanned child and child abuse. Planned Barronhood and their blood thirsty cohorts have, without success, tried for years to prove this. They can not, as it is difficult to prove something real, that isn’t. If a person tells a lie over and over, some may be mislead into believing it, but it is still a lie.

            Adoption isn’t that expensive if you have honest attorneys
            and not gold digging ambulance chaser. Fix the adoption system, then talk about abortion. I have nothing turned around, to prove it… go find ten foster kids and ask how many of them would rather be dead. You use the foster system, the adoption argument as a straw man debate that is utterly without substance. As to my knowledge and experience with the adoption system, foster system and child abuse, issues, you have no idea my experience or interaction with these subjects.

            “Being a man, you can never understand”… so you are a sexist bigot too? Tell me, since I’ve never beat my wife, does that mean I have no standing, to say, spousal abuse is bad? Oh my, how about since I’ve never been a junkie, maybe I should stop talking about the vice of drug abuse. And you know, I’ve never been, in a gang either, so maybe I should not object to all the gang murders in Chicago. You said, “.. you just want to control women.” At times, I may want too, but I’ve been married long enough to know that’s not ever going to happen.

            There are a great many dead beat dads out there, irresponsibility is alive an well, and always has been. As for them “impregnating women and then refusing to take financial responsibility,” I’m assuming you are not talking about rape, because if not, this impregnating thing takes two, and so does the responsibility. If people wish to play, as adults, then be adults. Incidentally, adulthood is best defined, not by age, but by the accepting of personal responsibility.

            “Abortion gives women back the power”.. to do what? Murder a baby… I know that sounds harsh and rather blunt, but so is abortion to the innocent child. You know, abortion does not make a woman unpregnant, it makes her the mother of a dead baby. I find that, to be much more harsh, than being jilted by some irresponsible man.

            As to my view on woman. They are special, all of them, even those I disagree with. They are to be cherished, and given every opportunity to be the happiest people on earth. But, there are limits. The greatness of our nation is found in the level of freedom and liberty unknown in thousands of years of civilization, but our liberty and freedom, ends, where someone else’s begins. We do not end incontinent marriages with shotguns, and we do not end incontinent pregnancies with abortion, for the same reason.

          • Joan

            “there have always been children without families?”
            That is NOT ok.
            Have you ever been to a Romanian orphanage? Have you ever been to a foster home that is nothing better than a kid mill?

            There are not enough people willing to take care of the unwanted children that have been abandoned by birth mothers who cannot or will not care for them.

            There is a broken adoption system that is not working for the betterment of all.

            Again you put the blame on women. It is a male problem. If they kept it in their pants there would not be unwanted pregnancies. I say, if a man gets a woman pregnant and then does not step up to care for the child, lets neuter him. It is his fault she is pregnant, and we as a society cannot allow him to continue to do this.

            That will fix the problem totally. No more need for abortion if the perpetrators are neutered.

          • DavidSayre

            I said “there have always been children without families?” and you replied.. That is NOT ok.

            Of course it is not okay. But it is also not the fault of the innocent baby either. It seems you are attempting
            to somehow say it is okay to kill a child here, because there is suffering in the world. All things considered, abortion is not some horror movie version of mercy killing. Pain and suffering are an integrated part of the human condition. Much of a person’s character is defined, and refined in how that person deals with adversity, pain and suffering… By no means, am I inferring that pain and suffering are a good thing, but I am also not blind to its reality.

            In fact, I have been in some pretty bad foster homes. I’ve also been in some very wonderful loving foster homes.
            I’ve also been in some pretty bad family homes, and some really great ones too. There are a great many people who used the force of government in a vain attempt to establish utopia on earth. In every case, they created hell. Reference the USSR, People’s Republic, etc.

            I do NOT blame women. You seem to think this to be exclusively a male problem; and, as you so colorfully referred to men keeping it in their pants… With the exception of rape, which is totally the mans fault, so rape excluded, he should keep it in his pants, as maybe she should cross her legs…. It takes two!… to make a baby. This idea of neutering, and seeing men alone as the problem reveals a real negative view of men, and an overly broad brush to paint them with. If some man hurt you, I’m sorry, but the Lorena Bobbitt solution seems a bit harsh.

          • Joan

            Pain and suffering are not an integrated part of the human
            condition. It is something people choose to accept in their lives. Adversity is not part of being human. People have
            been taught that they must suffer. It is the birthright of every person to be joyous, not suffer and manifest all of
            their needs. We as a society have allowed the clergy to make us believe suffering gets us into heaven. It is such a screwed up concept, it amazes me that more people do not question it.

            We as a society are setting up lifelong suffering of others,
            when we do not care for the living. Whether abandoned children or abandoned elderly, homeless and mentally
            infirmed. These are the real issues of being human.

            I do not understand how people can get so fired up over the unborn when there are so many people suffering that are already on this earth.

            Using the excuse that there will always be suffering is a copout. Human greed creates suffering. Human apathy creates pain, it is not something that God hands to us.

            We do not need to suffer through adversity to show good
            character. We are born pure and compassionate.

            Utopia is only created from within. When individuals are balanced and content from within their own being, connecting to the universe and the earth, can there be true utopia. It does not come in the form of a government, but in the form of individuals. One by one, understanding the true meaning of their existence on this planet. Loving
            themselves as the Creator loves them.
            Only then will compassion win out over greed and selfishness.
            For every person that is homeless, hungry, and without a family, it is due to the selfishness of society, and that can only be healed one heart at a time.

            My point about the men, was to illustrate that for so long
            in our society, unwanted pregnancy, and single motherhood has been seen as a female problem. Deadbeat dads can disappear leaving the female to singlehandedly raise the child. This is also an example of a society based on selfishness and greed. Of course
            neutering anyone is not the solution. But at this point in our evolution, abortion is a viable answer
            for a woman left with an unwanted pregnancy.
            I do not see many men stepping up to volunteer to raise the child on their own.

            My point is that a balance must be reached. Let us leave religion out of it, as everyone has their own belief system, and I am not so arrogant as to believe that mine
            should be forced upon anyone else.

            The problem is that society as a whole treats symptoms not the causes.
            Abortion is a symptom of a larger cause. Fix the cause, you heal the symptoms.

            Oh and to clarify for you, the Lorena Bobbitt solution was
            not a vasectomy…..

            But the whole idea of neutering males made you wince just a little, didn’t it….

          • Zack

            If your argument is that the fetus must be born…how then, is a cesarean-section different from vacuuming a fetus out? Both brought into this world by trained professionals…except one is ripped apart and the other is helped.

          • Itarion

            Abortion boils down to the question of whether or not that fetus is a person, and to be granted a person’s rights.

          • DavidSayre

            In medical terminology fetus is a straight forward term,
            when applied to a human being, to describe an unborn child. But in a more sinister way, it is a word used to confuse, or to dehumanize an unborn child. History is replete with examples of regimes playing word games the cost lives.

            As to whether a fetus is a person, that is pretty much
            established by medical science, and only the more medically naive even go there. As to personhood, that is the same debate that was argued before the Supreme Court in the “Dread Scott” case. Unfortunately, the court ruled Black people were not persons, but property… that one did not work out so well either. But Dred Scott is worth looking at, as the pro slavery folks used nearly identical arguments to support their views as today pro-abortion crowd does.

            It seems science, justice, ethics and history are firmly on
            the side of life. A lot of good Democrats, like, that pro-slavery dude Douglass, who debated Lincoln, were not that much on the side of justice, or liberty then, as the pro-aborts are not today.

          • Itarion

            As to whether a fetus is a person, that is pretty much established by medical science, and only the more medically naive even go there

            You mean to say that all medical professionals admit that embryonic and fetal humans are people? I would love to have some quotes from them on the topic.

            …that is the same debate that was argued before the Supreme Court in the “Dred Scott” case. Unfortunately, the court ruled Black people were not persons, but property… that one did not work out so well either.

            There is a difference between a fully developed human who happens to have a lot of melanin, and a not fully developed human. There are often analogues drawn between the slavery debate and the abortion debate, but they gloss over or outright ignore the fact that fetuses are not fully developed, independent humans. [as an aside, it’s probably helpful for you to spell Supreme Court cases correctly every time you mention them. Makes you look like you know what you’re talking about, and certain of spelling.]

            Here is an interesting argument that I came across on another Patheos blog, and I will share it with you.
            http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined/2012/01/a-defense-of-abortion-rights-the-spectrum-argument/

          • DavidSayre

            Of course, not all medical professionals consider the unborn,
            persons. Especially those who earn millions killing these children. dr. Kermit Gosnell comes to mind, small d on purpose.

            As to the other things you mentioned. Let me get this right, if a person is not fully developed, maybe mentally or physically disabled, you can kill them? So you love only pretty babies, right? Such a callused disregard and utter bigotry against a person based on their age and condition of dependency is appalling! I mispellled something? Must have been line noise across the net!

          • Itarion

            Especially those who earn millions killing these children. dr. Kermit Gosnell comes to mind,

            Inflammatory, disregarded.

            Let me get this right, if a person is not fully developed, maybe mentally or physically disabled, you can kill them?

            No. There is a difference between being unformed and formed differently. Handicaps of grown persons do not remove their personhood.

            Such a callused disregard and utter bigotry against a person based on their age and condition of dependency is appalling!

            I agree entirely. I don’t condemn people for having different and more difficult lives than my own. To my eyes, I am not condemning people by supporting abortion, which is the critical difference between our positions.

          • DavidSayre

            “Inflammatory, disregarded” ??? I agree! Kermit Gosnell
            is inflammatory, but his case is also important, as it’s the tip of the iceberg. Every once in a while, the dirty business,
            that is abortion spills into the public view, and all it’s supporters come rushing in to get it back into the darkness of their back alley offices and death chambers, nearly always, with the line, nothing to see here! When you look at the big bucks Planned Barronhood makes in the business of death… Well, society has always had people willing to kill if the price is right. It sometimes skives me out, that there are so many of these medical mercenaries of malignant compassion around us.

            “There is a difference between being unformed and formed differently” How so? Specifically, unformed and formed? At the moment of conception, everything is there. Do you think arms and legs somehow form and float over and attach? At conception, there is a complete genetic code, the only thing added from conception to death is nutrition. Whether this person dies at 3 months post conception by being murdered by a hired killer or has a heart attack at 74…. Nothing at all added but nutrition. People need to understand, there is a whole world of the real, beyond their fingertips.

            “Handicaps or grown persons do not remove their personhood.” Back to age discrimination are we? If a test indicates a child has a disability prior to birth, we can kill them, but not after being born? How convenient, but
            unfortunately, not anything new. Despots have made such lame excuses for murder for thousands of years. Even the Left’s tin-god Obama, while in Illinois, supported infanticide…

            In most subjects of political difference, we can agree to disagree. But when we agree to disagree on something
            that involves the traumatic death and violation of the civil rights of an innocent third party… There is an imperative in society to defend those who cannot defend themselves. You know, if the unborn could conduct boycotts, or picket, or deny campaign contributions, there would be no abortion. But they can’t, they can only die.

          • Joan

            I do not understand why a man is even allowed an opinion on abortion. I would rather see his time and energy put toward getting dead beat dads to support the children they have abandoned, then tell women what to do with their own bodies.

          • Joan

            David, and to all the other pro-lifers, what are your plans for all these unwanted children? Who is going to take care of them? pay for them? give them homes? When you have answered that question, and grown a vagina, then you will have a right to an opinion,

          • otlset

            Call the personhood expert Bob Sideswiper! Bob knows. He knows when a person is a person, and he knows when they ain’t. He’s got a whole spectrum to explain it. Calling Bob Sideswiper…!

          • manikajo

            That’s a lame argument. Of course it’s a person, unless you have sex with animals and then, well…maybe

        • Itarion

          Don’t be hatin’ on communists, they wanted everyone to live together harmoniously. Fascists are the ones who really imposed on freedoms the heaviest.

    • Richard Smit

      no it is murder!! you liberals love it to kill childeren!

  • Brad Webb

    No, spreading her legs was a choice. Beyond that choice, to be a fornicator, she is given the “choice” to add ‘murderer’ to the list of her abominable acts before Creator God. That’s hardly freedom, but enslavement to sin.

    • Joan

      @ Brad: a fornicator? whoa, Brad, what century do you live in?

      • Brad Webb

        Pardon me… sexually immoral.

        • Itarion

          Please excuse me as I make judgements of a life that I know nothing about.

          “Judge not, that ye be not judged” Matthew 7:1.
          Read your frikkin’ Book, because I hate having to read it for you.

          • guest

            When a woman was caught in adultery the religious leaders of the day were ready to stone the woman…Jesus was not. Jesus told her that he did not condemn her and to go and sin no more. She did. John 8:1-11 Jesus is all about loving, forgiving, and helping people change their lives.

          • Itarion

            Ex-Christian atheist. I know the story, but don’t especially care. Just so you know.

          • guest

            Atheist? hmmm, seems like you care enough to respond or quote the book and correct Brad.

          • guest

            Itarion either you were never a real Christian, just a religious person or church goer, or you aren’t a real atheist now.
            If a person’s life has been changed by the love of Jesus and REAL Christianity…not just “religious” people who are all about judgment, religion and no compassion for people….their is absolutely NO WAY to become an atheist. Because you would KNOW love and peace and joy….so real, could never turn your back on it.

          • Itarion

            If you truly believe what you just said, then I have three things to say:

            1) I am insulted by your opinion of my honesty.
            2) I pity you.
            3) Take some time to learn how others think.

          • guest

            No person who has had their heart changed by Jesus coming to live in him could ever become an atheist! “If any man be in Christ he is a new creation, old things have passed away and all things become new.”….”God’s kingdom is righteousness, peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost”.
            I have no doubt that you mentally agreed to being a Christian or something to do with religion…but real Christianity isn’t mentally agreeing to the Bible or Jesus…Real Christianity is a heart change where God’s love fills you! You are Changed! You would never want to leave it because life is now abundant ! John 10:10
            I’m sure that as you say you had some form of religion…but you never knew Jesus to live in your heart and change you. It would be turning your back on real life!!!

          • Joan

            beware of those who call themselves christians, for they will murder others in the name of their religion and will do horrific things to other people in the name of their religious beliefs. Run, do not walk, from them while you still can.

          • Guest

            Not sure what your post means, Joan. Hitler called himself a “Christian” and murdered millions of Jews. Just because a people call themselves something doesn’t mean they are! Hitler certainly was not a “Christian”. Jesus said “by their fruit you would know them.” Another words by their actions you’d know if they were the real deal. Jesus said you would know that someone was a Christian by their love! Too late for me…I’m hooked on the real deal!

          • Joan

            Many christians that I have come in contact with, are so judgmental of everyone else that does not believe as they do. To tell others that they are going to hell if they do not agree with their beliefs is ridiculous. Many simple go through the motions without living the life. That whole preaching thing is something I find repugnant. I do not need anyone coming to my door telling me I should believe as they do.

          • Mary Buerkley

            Joan, you are so simple. Christians kill? Muslims kill? Leaders of countries kill? Soldiers kill? So, why just pick on christians who you say kill? The crusades were a long time ago, and I happen to believe that history is distorted from the reality of it and the reasons for their actions. Christians went to war against the Muslims in the early history of Europe, etc…….If they had not, (and they won), we would have a different world today if there was one left…..

          • Joan

            So you think it was ok for Christians to war against Muslims? and you are saying if that did not occur, there would be no world today? wow, such sanctimonious fodder. War for the sake of religious domination is wrong. How can a religion that preaches peace, feel it is ok to kill others in the name of it? Christians are still prosecuting the non-believers. the fact that you think that is ok, is very scary.
            God gave us all free will. He did not say that right winged christians were the moral compass of the world. Learn to manager yourself and allow others to do the same, that is Christlike behavior. All the rest of the stuff you are spewing is pretty evil.

          • Itarion

            My admission of disbelief is not an invitation for you to begin preaching at me. Think what you will of me, but know that you are wrong.

          • Guest

            haha…I am posting here, just like you are. If you are happy and have no need of God, well, that is your choice. I guess one day we’ll see who was right and who was wrong.

          • Itarion

            Even so, even so.

          • Joan

            I never said I do not believe in God, I just have no need for self-righteous individuals who try to control other peoples behavior in the name of God. That is not Godlike in any way, shape or form.

          • Joan

            Itarion, that is the typical christian response, to tell everyone else they are wrong and to preach. It seems it isn’t enough for them to have “found Jesus”, but they have to try to prove themselves right by attempting to convert everyone else. and by the same token if they cannot convert you, will attack you.

          • Joan

            You are insulted by the idea of love, peace and joy coming from within ourselves? and you pity me for being balanced, grounded and feeling a sense of inner peace. Wow, dude, that is so messed up!

          • Itarion

            If you look closely, you can see that “If you truly believe…” was not directed at you, and in fact predates your “love peace and joy…” by nearly two full days.
            Although, I will say that the structuring Disqus uses is at times confusing, so I understand the error.

          • Joan

            love, peace and joy comes from within. It comes from a place inside ourselves when we are grounded, balanced, and connected.

          • Denise Rogers

            I’m sad for you…..So lost that you are., and alone. Go ahead nd say that you’re not… liar… I know the truth….lost and alone. with a big hole that the wind blows through. Absence of GOD. Like it or not.

          • Itarion

            You simply must be an extrovert, to equate alone with lost. Beyond that, you pity him, whom does not deserve it. You declare that you know the truth, yet you know nothing of me. You declare that i am a liar, yet all I have said is that I do not need your god. I maintain that life has only what meaning is given to it, by the owner of that life, and the lives of those around it. The meaning you have given to your life is that of god. My life is given meaning by my decisions, and by my family, friends, and girlfriend. There is nothing more I need for these are enough for me.

            But still, you maintain that I am lost and alone. Here is a parable to show why I am not:

            Two men were given to serve another for a long time, and they served their lord faithfully for many years. Then one day their lord left. One of these men sat waiting for the return of his master, while the other went to a nearby city to live, with the agreement that he would come back upon his master’s return. In the city, this man found others similar to himself, who offered him employment, and entertainment while not working. Seeing nothing wrong with this, he accepted. And so it was for many years. The one servant sat waiting alone in the house of his lord, while the other waited in the company of others. Then the terms of their services expired. Not long after this, the lord returned, and the first man joyously accepted a new term of service, while the second man declined to do so. The second man returned to the city, but the first remained with his lord, reasoning that any life with his master must surely be as lonely as the life he spent alone waiting for his lord to return.

            So you might see how two people might have very different views of the situation, if one does not have a full and complete understanding of how the other has lived.

            But in the end, I care not overmuch what you think. By all means, sit content to wait, but do not demand I be sorrowful for the sake of your peace of mind.

          • kc102

            I care..but the God you reject cares more!

          • Itarion

            That which does not exist can have no emotion, be it care or hatred.

            You yourself care, not for my sake, for your own. The truth of the matter is that one stranger means nothing to another, as I, the one typing this, means nothing to you as a person, but as a personal affront to your world.

            And so help me, I will be the best affront you have never seen.

          • Joan

            having sex is not a sin.

          • guest

            God came up with the idea of sex! Pretty good of God! But, because of His great love for mankind he let them know how to most enjoy it – in a committed marriage. Why? hurt that comes from casual sex, breaking up families, diseases, even depression…..there is a deep physical, emotional and even spiritual bond when sex is shared with a spouse with shared commitment. People have a funny idea about “sin”….like God wants to keep all the fun from us…NOT! Anything God considers as sin is because He knows that it is something that will hurt people. See, even the term “sin” is just God’s warning and love to spare people pain!!!

          • Joan

            That would depend upon your perspective. If you choose to live with those beliefs, fine, have at it, but not everyone chooses to believe as you do, that is my point. Not everyone wants to be a christian. Some are buddists, muslims, jews etc, not everyone needs or wants to hear your version of what God wants. If you feel it is important to be in a committed relationship to enjoy sex, that is your right, just as it is other peoples right to have their own beliefs. If you think having casual sex is not something you want to engage in, that is ok, but it is not ok to judge those that do not believe the way you do. When a person is in a balanced state of being, and is detached from fear they can lead a life full of joy, and not worry about the things you mention above. People who judge, and make rules are the ones in pain.

          • guest

            You are right Joan, all may choose, and obviously…they do! God gave everyone the wonderful gift of free choice.
            From my dealings with people as well as statistics they show having affairs destroys families and bring pain, multiple partners can produce STD’s, women who have abortions suffer from depression often many years afterward, and from the young girls I deal with who have had multiple partners theirs is a long list of heartache. Is this judgment? I think it is compassion…. to want to warn people and show them a different kind of life they can live.
            If you or anyone for that matter doesn’t want to accept it…ok.
            The Bible says that there is only way one to God and to receive eternal life and it is through faith in Jesus as Lord and Savior. People don’t have to change anything about their life to come to receive. Man is sinful and needs a Savior. I view it as love not judgment to share this good news of the abundant life that is found in Jesus. .Jesus changed my life for the better, and I have peace with God and know where I will spend eternity.
            If the Bible is wrong you haven’t lost anything to believe it. But, if the Bible is right you and anyone who rejects the truth in it has everything to lose.
            with love,
            .

          • manikajo

            Enjoy Hell!

          • Itarion

            You as well, ma’am. You as well.

          • Denise Rogers

            AND IT IS NOT YOURS TO JUDGE CHRISTIANS, which is the oldest religion, by the way.

          • Itarion

            Regardless of whose it is to judge Christians, the statement that Christianity is the oldest religion is absolutely, verifiably, extraordinarily and in all other ways false. I would love to hear where you got this tidbit, because it is just so hideously wrong.

          • Michelle Erb

            The oldest religion??!! Are you out of your mind? What religion was Jesus? Hint- He was born to a religion other than Christianity and Christianity did not begin until well after his death.

            Christianity is not even the first religion to come up with a story of a god impregnating a virgin or sacrificing himself for humans.

            Did you ever hear of idol worship, polytheism? Did you ever even read part of a Bible? It refers to all of those things as well as the followers of other religions. Jesus had not even been born when the Old testament and Ten Commandments were written. Jesus was alleged to have been descended from Ruth, a Moabite, they practiced a different religion as well. Perhaps check out the “Book of Ruth” and read about that one.

            Or read the history of China, a civilization that was well established while the people who became Christians were not yet literate. How about the Greek gods? That civilization preceded the Roman Empire that killed your Jesus. All well before Christianity.

            I certainly hope you are a troll. Because the alternative is just too sad.

          • kc102

            Joan everyone will find out one day which side of belief was right until then the debate continues…I am choosing the side of God because I understand the promises and see the fruit in my life!

          • Michelle Erb

            Committed Biblical marriage? The kind with multiple wives and concubines?

          • Denise Hintz Wolfgram

            Yup, the term “biblical marriage” has certainly been wrung through the writer since we think it means we look at the actions of other sinners like us and how they screw things up, like when they don’t have multiple wives and concubines. Scriptures/Christ’s design for marriage began with Adam and Eve and is further explained in the New Testament mostly in the epistles.

          • Michelle Erb

            Following the example of the story of Adam and Eve and their children would be a prescription for incest.

          • Denise Hintz Wolfgram

            yes, their kids did marry each other, and it wasn’t until later on when Suchlike elation ships were forbidden. By that time, it was after the fall, and my guess is that this law was to not continue to reproduce offspring that would have the results of a messed up genetic code. A lot of the laws in Leviticus are purely common sense and for health reasons as well as moral.

          • manikajo

            Wrong! Ever heard of the 10 Commandments?

          • Michelle Erb

            The ten commandments say “sex” is a sin? Not my copy. No mention of rape, homosexuality or abortion in there either.

          • Denise Rogers

            It’d the abortion… The lack of respect for life that is the sin…..

          • Denise Hintz Wolfgram

            Well, Scripturally it is. The gift of sex was made for a man and woman within the blessing of marriage.

          • manikajo

            The key there is change their life. Go and sin no more. But most that are immoral enough to have an abortion don’t give a crap and go and sin again.

        • Joan

          you call a woman who gets pregnant out of wedlock sexually immoral, what about the man who impregnated her, and convinced her to have sex with him…what do you call him? Again, what century do you live in?

          • Denise Rogers

            I call him irresponsible , just like her…..If they don’t want a baby, protect themselves and the unborn from this sin of murder..

        • Sayit1

          I find the way you communicate immoral.

    • guest

      Your attitude and way of communication will hardly win anyone to the God you serve. When the religious leaders of the day were ready to stone the woman who had committed sexual sin, Jesus was the one to reached out to the woman with compassion….and she changed her life!

      • Debbie

        And Jesus said: He who has no sin, let him cast the first stone.

        • Denise Hintz Wolfgram

          He forgave her and said, “Go and sin no more.” He forgave her repentant heart but did not condone the action.

    • Mary Buerkley

      so, some say or write the ‘way it is’, without any ‘sugar coating’. Brad is correct. most abortions, (not all) happen because they, the guy and the girl. are promiscuous. They panic when they’re found ‘pregnant’, and the spiral starts downward, to get rid of the unwanted fetus, for now it’s a problem, not a pleasure……Isn’t it the promiscuous age? and the government helps to promote it thru the abortion mills? Parents, where are you?

    • Sayit1

      Wow.. this has to be one of the most ugly comments I have ever seen. This says far more about who you are than who she is. Whomever ” she” is. She is forgiven– it is called God’s grace. You might want to brush up on what that actually means.

      • manikajo

        That is the stupidest comment ever. Forgiven? So murder is okay if you ask forgiveness?

        • kaitlyn

          According to your god yes, you ask forgiveness for your sins and you shall receive redemption

        • Denise Hintz Wolfgram

          Murder is not ok, just as any sin is not ok, but it is forgive able when we repent to Christ for forgiveness.
          He will always forgive when we repent, or turn away from our sin.

          • manikajo

            The key word there is repentance. Many think they can do anything and then just ask for forgiveness. True repentance changes the heart to turn toward God’s will.

          • Denise Hintz Wolfgram

            Exactly.

      • Denise Rogers

        ONLY if the women is unaware of what she is doing……

        • Sayit1

          What are you even talking about ?

      • kc102

        To be forgiven you must first ask for it…while forgiveness is freely offered it still comes down to personal choice. If, this woman never realizes she needs a savior and his grace she will remain a sinner not saved by grace.

        • Sayit1

          Ok.. first off you know nothing about this woman other than she has termininated a pregnancy. The thief on the cross, a condemned man simply said ” we indeed are suffering justly, for we are receiving what we deserve for our
          deeds; but this man has done nothing wrong.” And he was saying, “Jesus,
          remember me when You come in Your kingdom!” And Jesus said to him, “Truly I say
          to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise.”. This man did not ask for forgiveness, he simply acknowledged Christ. Jesus had the compassion to listen to the pleas of one who had great need. There is a REASON we are not to judge others.. leave that to God. Peace Brother….

  • Methadras

    This is what leftism has brought to our society and to our children. Leftism is the most dangerous ideology ever created by man. It has killed more people than anything else short of a massive natural cataclysm. 40 – 50 million US children have died in the same way described above without a blink of an eye and we are told that this is choice. That these children growing in the womb must be extinguished forever because choice is more important than their silent lives. That is 40 – 50 million Americans that will never live, never love, never grow, never experience the universe in all of it’s majesty, never marry, never have children, never know their potential to become great people and contribute something to this world.

    That is what leftism has done and does. It squelches and kills opportunity. It kills advancement, it kills life and enslaves what it can’t kill.. Leftism is an ideology of death and we are told it isn’t. Leftism lies in the face of the truth in order to allow itself to be propagated to people who don’t know any better. Well, I know better because I’ve seen what leftism has done to my world and to my country. Liberalism is the step-child of Leftism. Leftism is truly the enemy we must fight on a global scale. Leftism and leftists will seek out anything to forward their agenda. They will corrupt and foul anything that is tradition and good to promote this horrific ideology of pernicious death. Make no mistake that what we as conservatives fight is leftism and like the Christians of old, we will be persecuted in that fight by these very leftists. Leftists in the media, leftists in politics, leftists in private industry. Leftism and leftists will vilify us, they will try to marginalize us, they will call us radicals, homophobes, xenophobes, racists, bigots, and any other pejoratives that they can use to deflect and redirect the attention away from the ideology they practice.

    Leftism is a cancerous poison in the world. Its objectification of death, subservience to the state, indentured servitude, and its unrelenting need to infiltrate all aspects of our lives through media, through legislation, and more importantly, through our children and their education. Abortion is simply an extension of this ideology and it must be stopped, but as you can see the great American holocaust has a price and just like the story above, one of it’s warriors has surrendered to the side of life because he saw, with his own eyes infanticide and the wanton and deliberate destruction of one of God’s creations, the miracle of life, the sanctity of the womb being violated. And yet we are told that this is choice. That death is a choice for a small, voiceless, defenseless human being growing in the womb of his or her mother and leftism encroaches mercilessly into that realm and rips it out in the name of choice. This is the shame of the Great American Holocaust. An institutionalized industry of infanticide that has government protection and tax payer backing. To call it shameful would be to minimize its true impact of its evil nature. To know that the spark of the divine, that a divine soul is being snuffed out is an abominable act. We as life loving Americans must see this end. This isn’t even a religious argument, but rather a plea that life must be administered to as the defacto standard by which we are judged as a people and as a society that choosing life is a virtue, not a detriment.

    The ideology of leftism would see you crushed under its heel for suggesting it. If you are a leftist, I ask you to reconsider your ideological thinking. That the fundamentals of the ideology you exercise is rooted in subjugation and death. Shun these things. Rebuke such folly and renounce this backward ideology that would see you brought under its heel if you ever cross it. Celebrate life like this person in the story has. Reject this ideology and see the misery it has caused since it’s inception. Even as you think on this remember that you are alive to ponder such a request, but also remember that 40 – 50 million Americans will never have such a luxury and the count will never stop until you decide that this act of evil must be stopped forever.

    • http://sherdog.com/ OutlawTorn41

      THANK YOU, BRAVO BRAVO!!!!!!

    • Cheryl Webb Clair

      One of those 40-50 million aborted children, might have grown up to discover the cure for cancer or maybe just the common cold. They were never given that chance. How sad.

  • Itarion

    My heart’s not broken. Does this mean that I don’t have one?

    *concerned

    • guest

      You have one….but, it is broken.

      • Itarion

        Did I not just say that it wasn’t?

        • guest

          If you are not moved by reading the above description….then your heart is broken.

          • Denise Rogers

            Amen

          • Michelle Erb

            I am moved by the tragic stories of courageous women who had to choose this kind of abortion either for their own health or because the fetal diagnosis was so horrible that they felt this kind of abortion would be more merciful.

            The details of the procedure while visually disturbing do not change my empathy for women in that position. Every surgery I have ever had (including a minor amputation) would have been visually disturbing. But I did not decide whether to consent to those procedures based on imagery. I certainly did not want to have an amputation, but it was the right thing to do. Likewise in the surgical setting described, this abortion may have also been the difficult but merciful choice.

            And, no I am not comparing an abortion to a minor amputation. An abortion of a wanted child is far more tragic. I am just making the point that sometimes the result is unwanted but necessary. And it is wrong for others to judge or to make things even more difficult for a woman who is already suffering.

          • Lorraine Harvey

            Are you saying that 50 million children aborted every year is because the featus is malformed or the mother’s life is in danger?? How many children do you think that is? And how many do you think out of 50 million is an inconvenience? and no one simplifies murder in any form!! But this is a sad serious problem that will only be settled between god and the women that murder their own children. For what ever reason. Don’t you think the solution would be to practice abstence if children aren’t wanted?

          • Michelle Erb

            I am saying that the type of procedure described in this blog that is performed legally in an operating room and involves dismemberment is usually performed for those reasons.

            As I have said over and over early abortions are not going to be stopped by passing laws that hurt women in more extreme circumstances, because women having early abortions will always be able to find abortion pills or pay someone to do the simple procedure.

            The way to stop those abortions is to change the conditions that cause them in the first place. Help women get out of poverty and abusive relationships, expand access to healthcare and sexual education. Don’t take those things away.

            Ask every single adult member of the Palin family how well “abstinence” works. Abstinence is not exactly an option for victims of rape or incest or those whose husbands and boyfriends do not give them much of a choice. Moreover, why should married and committed people (or those who enjoy sex) but cannot yet afford a child, practice abstinence? Wouldn’t affordable contraception be a better solution for them?

    • manikajo

      If your heart is beating, what makes yours worthy?

      • Itarion

        Nothing at all. I am here and alive by chance, same as you. That child-in-potentia was never born, and this, too, is chance. There is no meaning inherent to life, no value but that which has been placed upon it.

        Dark, perhaps, but I dare you to prove me wrong.

        • hirider

          Jeremiah 1:5 NIV
          “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart;

          • Itarion

            1) This was directed at a specific person, fairly important in Hebrew tradition. A god would not take such care in the normal individuals, just the extraordinary owned.

            2) You have failed to prove the existence of a godbeing, a position that I hold to be untenable and self defeating.

            3) You have failed to prove that such hypothetical godbeing is by necessity your Christian God, which is fairly extraordinary considering the sheer quantity of gods, demigods and immortals of legend to be sorted through.

            Summary: You have failed to show that a god exists, is your God, and thus designs every human from conception to death.

            Note: You have managed to show a very basic misunderstanding of the quote you decided to use. Not a good start.

          • Sheltzy

            What is the point of you even trolling this article only to post what you did? Just curious. You started the question only to prove what? That by asking someone on here to prove that God exists? He doesn’t need us to prove He exists. We can never do that and it’s not our job. Nature does that and I don’t have to even prove that to you. Every point you just made was aimed at shaming/humiliating or at least making someone feel inferior about their attempt at answering a question. Why don’t you seek God for yourself and prove to yourself if He’s real or not. There’s physical evidence all around. Yes, if you put your finger in a light socket you know electricity exists. That is your physical proof (providing you live to see its effects…just an example.) You’re going to say that the human body, in its design isn’t proof (as unique, absolutely unique from one person to another down to our fingerprint and DNA), or even the earth’s creatures alone…it really all came from a pop, crackle or bang? I believe there’s a lot more faith to be had by someone unwilling to believe in God creating all of this than there is in Him creating it. And if you have faith in the absence of God and that you alone rule your destiny…bravo! And good luck with that. And if you have no heart…what’s keeping you alive (metaphorically and not)?

          • Itarion

            I don’t see myself as a troll: I am sincerely interested in a good answer. An inapplicable, out of context Bible quote with no accompanying explanation is not a good answer, hence my response to it.

            I don’t ask to prove anything to anyone. I ask you to prove something to me. A question is not a proof, it is a request for such.

            If you say nature proves God, then you DO need to prove that, because there are a lot of very smart people who are discovering some wondrous things in nature, where God would make doing so difficult to the point of impossibility.

            It was an inferior attempt. There is no shame in that, provided one gets up and tries again. I will note that it was better than YOUR attempt, which takes far too long to say nothing of substance.

            There is a difference between God and electrons. One can reach out and touch electricity. One can see the direct effects of electricity, and harness the power thereof. Electrons have real and direct implications for everything I do daily. I have not seen the effects of god, have not felt him flowing into my finger. I cannot harness his power in countless ways.

            As for the human body: it’s a terrible design. Illness and death are enough evidence for that. Yet one does not see that the human body has degraded from a greater state in the past. Rather, modernity has vastly improved the quality of life, the length of life, and begun to make improvents on the human body itself.

            And since you asked so nicely: all available evidence points to an ancient universe which was initiated from a single point of space, and continues to expand to this day. Contrary to your belief, this requires little to no faith, as the evidence is laid out, writ between the stars for all who have the knowledge and tools to look for it. The same cannot be said for your god, else we would see him arise identically across the ages. The facts of science do.

            Finally, I don’t have faith in the absence of god, but an absence of faith in god. The difference appears semantic, but is fairly critical. In order for you to move to another religion, you have two steps to take: first, you lose your faith in god, then, you find faith in another. I just needs find faith in a god, but the requirement for me to find such faith is fairly high.

            Thus my challenge: can you overcome my requirements for belief, and impart your faith to me?

            (In response to your parting question: I did not say I have no heart, but implied it and let you draw the conclusion. It pumps my blood and loves my family, but is unmoved by overly exaggerated tales of conversion.)

          • Michelle Erb

            Actually that shows that we are alleged to have souls before we are formed and after we die. It certainly does not suggest that “life begins at conception.” Since more fertilized embryos actually fail to implant than ever become babies, your theory would mean that there would be more souls that never lived than that did.

            Early in pregnancy everything is chance. If two people have sex a minute later, the egg and sperm that meet would form an entirely different human being, or no being at all. Moreover, the odds of miscarriage remain high throughout the first trimester. I would hope that if there were an all powerful god, it would refrain from wasting souls on embryos that were never going any farther.

            Moreover, the Bible you rely on (and many of us do not) does not support the idea that life begins at conception or even that abortion is murder. While Orthodox Jews take the command for them to be “fruitful and multiply” seriously, Rabbis have always concluded from the Bible that true life begins with the first breath. When ever a choice has to be made between the fetus and the welfare of the mother, Rabbis will say to save the mother. Even most priests will authorize abortion if the woman’s life is in danger.

            There was ample opportunity in the Old and New Testament to call out abortion as one of the many “abominations.” But it is not there. The Bible even sets out an abortion ritual in cases of adultery. Moreover, it sets out very detailed punishment in cases where a pregnant woman is attacked and her “fruit” is lost. It specifies that the punishment should be commensurate with the specific injury caused to the woman (a burn for a burn, wound for a wound etc). It is not considered murder unless the mother dies.

            (I should note that there are modern evangelical versions that actually try to claim that this passage refers to premature births. An anachronistic view that does not fit with the rest of the text which clearly refers to the woman’s possible injuries such as burns. And makes no sense considering the nearly impossible odds of a premature baby surviving in those times. Even those agenda driven versions cannot explain away the abortion ritual for adulteresses or the lack of even a single passage, included in the 613 commandments, condemning abortion)

            But hey some people use the Bible to argue that marriage must be between one man and one woman, and we know it actually says nothing of the kind. Multiple wives and concubines anyone?

          • Lorraine Harvey

            How can u not use some common sense. How could a baby get from the size of a pinhead to an 8 lb baby if it wasn’t alive would it not stay the same size and not get bigger?? How would it grow if no life is there.

          • Michelle Erb

            Until it has consciousness, it is alive the same way that a plant is alive. It is as much a person as a fertilized egg is a chicken. It has incredible potential, but more times than not a fertilized embryo never becomes a person, for perfectly natural reasons. Is an embryo in a petrie dish that never gets implanted a person? It is not getting any bigger on its own. Not without the voluntary or forced assistance of a woman, and a heck of a lot of help from nature.

            Many women have chemical pregnancies and never even knew that they were pregnant. Claiming that every one of those embryos had a soul but never got to live is cruel nonsense.

            I see on another blog that Bristol is publicizing a bumper sticker that says anyone who had an abortion is the “mother of a dead child.” Think what you are saying to women who have early miscarriages. That they have dead children? That is disgusting. They have enough pain as it is.

            Are you one of those people who want to pass laws requiring an investigation every time a woman has a miscarriage?

          • Lorraine Harvey

            Big difference between abortion and miscarriage. one is murder the other is nature. and what you said about the life of a plant there is a huge difference between a plant and a human being. and if you have no common sense then you tend to use none.
            its like arguing with a cement slab.

          • Michelle Erb

            But you argued that an embryo is alive BECAUSE it “GROWS.” You even insulted me by stating that was just “common sense.” Well isn’t the “common sense” response to that that plants grow as well?

            An embryo that does not implant for natural reasons is biologically the same as one that is aborted. And, like an embryo in a petrie dish, they are no more aware of their own existence than a plant is. Of course the critical difference between a plant and a human embryo is the possibility of what they could become as well as the hopes and dreams of the potential family. But those hopes and dreams and the horrible disappointment when they are dashed does not change the fact that the embryo that is lost never developed any more consciousness than a growing plant. Either all failed embryos, regardless of the method, are “dead children” or none of them are.

            To be clear though, I do not subscribe to the “life begins with the first breath” philosophy. I was just explaining the Biblical definition to those who seem to think that matters. The people of those times simply had no idea how a fetus was progressing until it was actually born.

            Personally I do not live my life based on the writings of an archaic people who believed that the universe was made up of one flat earth with heavens above it. Or that advocated slavery, polygamy, subjugation of women etc. While the Bible was amazing for its time and has some great, albeit disturbing, stories, we have evolved well past it when it comes to ethics and respect for our fellow man. But if you are going to quote the Bible at least get it right. And “life begins at conception” is not a Biblical quote, no matter how many times people on this blog pretend that it is.

            My own opinion is that what makes us “alive” as humans, and not merely sperm, egg, or embryos, is consciousness. Which does begin before birth but well after the embryonic stage. I believe that a medically necessary very late term abortion does involve “death” but it is no more murder, than is removing life support from a person who is suffering.

            The modern evangelical idea that an embryo is the same as a person is foolishness. I refuse to accept the idea that a woman should go into full mourning every time she has a chemical pregnancy that does not implant. She is certainly not the “mother of a dead baby.” Moreover I think it is beyond cruel to deny the morning after pill(which merely prevents ovulation) to a rape victim, or to outlaw IVF based on foolish religious beliefs that do not even come from the Bible..

          • Lorraine Harvey

            And you are still comparing a human being to a plant. Do you really think an abortion killing a live child is no different than mowing your grass with a lawn mower? according to you the grass on your lawn is as alive as a fetus

          • Michelle Erb

            Let us be clear. A fetus is not a plant and it is not a human child. It is a fetus. Aborting or losing one is not “nothing” but it is also not “murder.”

            As I said, the plant comparison was in response to your claim that abortion must be be “murder” because an embryo is capable of “growing.” As I said, that is a worthless argument, because plants can grow as well.

            Instead of continuing to argue the point, why not just admit that you were wrong to accuse me of not “using common sense” when your argument is that it is always “murder” when something that “grows” is separated from that which was sustaining it.

            Your argument is the one that would support the idea that mowing the lawn is “grass murder.” Not mine.

          • Denise Hintz Wolfgram

            I agree with one is murder, one is nature. But yes, when you miscarry, you do end up with a dead child, but it is not because you killed it.

          • Michelle Erb

            Referring to a chemical pregnancy that a woman did not even know about or an IVF embryo that could not be implanted as “dead children” belittles the suffering of parents whose children have actually died. They are not the same thing.

            Twenty six poor quality embryos in an IVF lab do not equal the Newtown massacre.

          • Denise Hintz Wolfgram

            Both are evidences of life that has ended. I grief with those hopeful parents who lose their little ones whose lives ended sooner than than would have hoped. We will disagree as we’ve had this discussion before. I realize that you have a differnrnt definition of the beginning of life, so our discussion is pretty much futile. Just letting you know that some wil be grieving over those embryos that die. I on,y ask that you would be respectful of their feelings and loss.

          • Michelle Erb

            Denise, I agree that we should not rehash the same issues, but I do have two new questions for you.

            1) What is your position on abortion to save the life or health of the mother?

            2) On the page about the co-exist bumper sticker, I asked whether you meant to imply that you liked the alternative bumper sticker that basically says that all Muslims are evil and out to kill us and Christians never harm anyone? (Most people would view that alternative bumper sticker as ignorant and hateful)

          • Denise Hintz Wolfgram

            1) First of all, I did pose the question a few years ago (Not here) about what happened before Rove V Wade regarding when a woman’s life was at risk due to pregnancy, and what I found was that in such situations, the mother’s life took precedence over that of the fetus/embryo/baby. So, legalizing abortion wasn’t necessary in such cases.

            That being said, I can’t imagine what it would belike to have to make such a decision. I know I had to have a biopsy when I was pregnant and wondered how I would have to have dealt with that had it come back positive.

            I do think that it is too broad of question to ask, because there are so many situations to which this speaks. Can the fetus be given more time to grow before being taken via C-section, giving it a better chance rather than not giving it the chance at all by ending its life? Will both die if no action is taken? So many variables with that statement. Legally, mom is the one to live.

            2) Looking at the beliefs of the many faiths in the Coexist bumper sticker, at least from the Christian point of view, Scripture teaches us to obviously coexist even with people with whom we disagree. (I’m assuming that the opposite of co existing is to have others NOT exist, meaning the elimination of those who are not Christian.) That is not in God’s Will. God’s will is that all come to the knowledge of the truth of Him to win others to HIM. I may be wrong, but isn’t there something is the Muslim that wants to eliminate those who are not Muslim? That would be a perfect example of not coexisting.

            I am ashame of behavior (in and of myself and others) that would express wanting harm to come to those who do not agree with what Scripture expresses. I hate seeing someone post things like “Burn in hell!” (or calls someone an disgusting troll) that is the last thing I ever would want to tell someone, and that behavior, even when it comes from a Christian, is just that awful sinful nature and pride that gets the best of us all too often.

          • Michelle Erb

            To most decent people “co-exist” means more than just let others live. It means let them build their own places of worship and do not force your religion on them or their children.

            That alternative bumper sticker that you like so much is despicable hate speech. Not only do most Muslims not wish to kill nonbelievers but some Christian do and have.

            Painting all Muslims with the brush of terrorists would be like assuming that all Christians are like the Westboro Baptist Church, the KKK, or many Christians supremacist groups. To ignore Christian involvement in the Spanish Inquisition, crusades, pogroms, and the Holocaust is dangerous revisionist history.

            To label one religion as all evil and the other as pure good is ignorant and hateful.

            Here is some information from a practicing Muslim:

            “Non believers in Islam such as Jews and Christians are considered believers and people of God and can be accepted to heaven.

            Quran 2:62

            “Those who believe (in the Qur’an), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward
            with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve”

            “As for non believers such as atheist and pagans we want to show them the light. Not by a bomb,plane,missile,gun, or sword, But with
            words about Islam and the same goes for Jews and Christians.

            Killing is a sin in Islam. We are not allowed to kill unbelievers for who they are unless they are trying to kill us”

          • Denise Hintz Wolfgram

            Right–the holocaust, while set forth by a “Christian” was absolutely not a Christian activity. I’m still looking to find the absolute (like the Bible for Christians) for the Muslim faith, because I’m learning that it includes so much more than what you are exopressing. ALso, I havenot heard much outcry from the Muslim community renouncing any terrorist activity that as has been done in the name of Allah to be abhorrent to them, and not what their absolute says. The silence is quite deafening.

          • Michelle Erb

            The “silence” is because your ears are closed. There have actually been more Muslims victimized by Islamic terrorists than non-Muslims. Over and over Islamic leaders cry out against it.

            The reason we have been able to stop many terrorist plots is because of the assistance of Muslims. In fact many have turned in their own children when they realize they have been brainwashed by extremists.

            Muslims, Christian, and Jews actually believe in the same Abrahamic god of the old testament. All of their Holy books contain plenty of hateful violent language as well as contradictory language regarding love and Kindness. Your god actually punished King Saul for failing to kill all of the children and animals of his enemy “Amalek.” At least most Muslims believe that people of different faiths will make it into heaven. You cannot say the same about Christianity.

            The reality is that every single organized religion can be judged very harshly. So best to focus on being a better person yourself instead of propagating prejudices against a billion and a half of your fellow human beings.

          • Michelle Erb

            Jews have been victimized for nearly two thousand years due to the label “Christ killer” which also led to the horrendous “blood libel”(the false claim that jews kill christian children and used their blood for their rituals). The Holocaust against the jews was only able to occur with the support of the Christians of Europe who had learned to hate them so much. Many jews were led out of town with to the sound of Christian children calling out “Christ killers” and spitting at them. This is very much a part of Christian history, unpleasant as it might be.

            I see the same kind of hate in many American Christians of today. The difference is now it is directed toward all Muslims, and comes from the ignorant attitude that one and a half billion people all believe the same things as some terrorist extremists.

            Instead of learning the lessons of the Holocaust and slavery, the present trend of the American right seems to use a distorted vision of what caused the Holocaust and ignore the horrible realities of slavery to support new hateful causes.

          • Michelle Erb

            Please do not misunderstand me. I do not mention any of this to attack Christians. Many amazing Christians have stood up for Jews at their own peril. As many Muslims stand up against terrorism. Moreover, no Christian of today is responsible for what other Christians did in the past, or even do today.

            My point is that what makes that bumper sticker so horrible is that it picks and chooses- seeing only the absolute worse in Muslims and the best in Christians.

            Ignoring history and generalizing against others is dangerous. This has been shown time and time again, with tragic results.

          • Michelle Erb

            I never thought there even was question of whether a life saving abortion should be permitted. However, my eyes have been opened by posters to this blog. At least five so-called Christians have expressed the opinion that even life saving abortions should be illegal. One has even repeatedly stated that a woman who has an abortion to save her life is “worse than a Nazi.” She even said that about an actual Holocaust victim. So far not one purported Christian has said a word against her posts..

            I have to admit that coming to this blog has started to make me ill at times. I have always thought that you and a few others at least do not seem to be coming from a hateful place. That is why it was disturbing to see you admire that alternative bumper sticker.

          • Denise Hintz Wolfgram

            I guess I never thought of trying to allow a person to live as long as they could before having to end it as hateful. I’ve kinda thought letting someone live is…..actually pretty cool. And if you red what I has their are so many variables in the statement “when the mother’s life is at risk” you can’t just make a blanket statement. Also, that when it comes down to the wire, the mother’s life takes precedence. Trying to find the hate here….

          • Michelle Erb

            Not sure what you are saying here. There is nothing hateful about your position about a mother’s life versus the fetus. The only reason I asked was I was curious whether you agreed with some of the posters here that a woman who has an abortion to save her own life is still a “murderer.” Apparently you do not, and I did not really think that you would. I have just been surprised at the hateful stuff that has been said on these blogs with out being called out by Christians who seem to be reading the same stuff I am.

            On the co-exist bumper sticker you seem to be saying that your idea of “co-existing” with someone is not killing them. While to most people it means letting them live the lives they choose, as long as they are not hurting anyone else.

          • Denise Hintz Wolfgram

            Sort of like if I were a photographer, and having to Photograph a same sex union ceremony would be very uncomfortable for me since it goes against my faith, it would better to just let me coexist and respectfully decline the job and not be forced to participate in the event? Yes, I think that coexisiting in such a situation would be awesome.

          • Michelle Erb

            I agree with you and so do many Homosexuals including columnist Andrew Sullivan. There is a difference between being unwilling to serve people, merely because of their status, and being unwilling to perform certain services.

            Right now in most states, including Arizona, you can still legally refuse to allow people into your open-to-the-public establishment if you think they are gay. You can even fire them over their private sexual status. I do think that is unlawful discrimination and should change.

            The problem is that in states that have passed laws protecting against that type of discrimination, some are getting carried away when it comes to personal services and there will be blow back on that.

            For example if you are a baker you should be able to say what kind of cake you are or are not willing to make in the first place. However if you have a pre-made cake on your shelf available for sale, you should not be able to refuse to sell it to particular customers, because of their race, religion etc.

            Likewise florists and photographers need to have the ability to pick and choose which jobs they will to take for multiple reasons. As the issue moves up in the courts that will most likely be the legal conclusion as well.

          • Denise Hintz Wolfgram

            Exactly. The photographer or baker should be able to have a say in what activity or behavior they are being asked to take part in through their service.

          • Denise Hintz Wolfgram

            Same with pastors and churches who provide weddings ceremonies. Same kind of stuff. Kindly done, Respectfully declining to do so based on beliefs should alsonot be considered hate speech.

          • Michelle Erb

            You are confusing two things. Churches are certainly free to decide which marriages can and cannot be sanctioned according to their faith. But should not get any say in which secular marriages the government recognizes for purposes of inheritance, healthcare choices, child custody etc.

            Religious organizations, churches, and pastors in their official capacity, are even free to discriminate as much as they like. They can even discriminate based on race. That is separation of church and state. But if a church refuses to admit blacks, based on their own interpretation of the Bible, people will call them hateful.

            Moreover, anyone is free to say whatever bigoted thing they want to say at any time. That is freedom of speech. However, other people are also free to call them out and say that they are hateful.

            So you can say what you want and others can choose to express their opinion about you, or refuse to give you business, or even decide that they do not wish to continue to employ you as a spokesperson for their business.

          • Denise Hintz Wolfgram

            True, I agree with the freedom of speech as you explained it. Hopefully we won’t see more cases like the photographer in New Mexico who now doesn’t have the freedom to turn down same sex ceremonies, the the court ruling will be turned around to return those freedoms to her. Also, that we won’t go the way of many European countries who do not give their clergy and churches the freedom when it comes to same sex ceremonies.

          • Michelle Erb

            Please name a single European country that requires clergy to perform same-sex marriages in their churches? I have never heard of it and cannot find any such records.

            You many be confusing cases where clergy members have official jobs with the government and in that capacity are being told to recognize marriages in their official capacity. Not perform them.

            Or you may have heard about cases like one in Canada where a member of the clergy is also the person performing civic ceremonies for the province. In her official government capacity she cannot discriminate. But she certainly does not have to work there, and can stick to performing services in solely a religious capacity..

            In this country separation of church and state is sacrosanct. Although if some on the extreme Christian right got their way they would turn us from a secular government to a theocracy. If that ever happened and you did not subscribe exactly to the the official government religion – good luck.

            What baffles me is that Christians are so offended when others just call them bigoted, but will turn around and actually stop Muslims from building a Mosque or even a community center.

          • Michelle Erb

            The majority of women who have children also know the loss of a wanted embryo or fetus, since miscarriages are so common. As I have said it is very sad and women need to take some time to grieve. But calling it a “dead child” lays a heavy burden on the woman who may blame herself for unpreventable miscarriages, and devalues the lives of living children as well as the incomparable grief of those who have had to bury them

          • Kathi J

            Abortion has never been defined legally as murder in this country — suggest you learn the actual definition of the word “murder”.

          • Lorraine Harvey

            Taking the life of another human being IS Murder! Call it whatever you like. At the end of the day there is a lifeless body. But then you probably have an excuse for that too. it’s not to be called a dead baby. after all it didn’t breathe.

          • Kathi J

            Again – murder is a legal term, a specific type of charge someone who kills another person can be charged with. The word you are looking for is “kill”. Not a baby until it’s born either and most abortions take place when the embryo or fetus is about the size of a blueberry.

          • Joshua Wilhour

            Murder is first and foremost a moral term, of which most lawyers have none.

          • Kathi J

            Again, murder is a legal definition – a specific type of killing and a killing that is illegal and unlawful.

          • Michelle Erb

            To be clear I am not in anyway implying that a plant has the same worth as fetus or embryo. However, your argument that abortion is murder because an embryo may grow is silly, since plants grow as well.

            An embryo does not have consciousness, nor does it feel pain or ever even know that it exists. What makes it special and different from a plant is its potential. But unless its potential is fulfilled, if ever, it is not the same as a child.

            The natural demise of a wanted embryo is sad and worthy of some mourning. But it should never be compared to the loss of a living child. Doing so devalues the very things that make us human.,

        • Lorraine Harvey

          I can tell you are very intelligent and a whole lot misguided. If you just read the bible it will open a new world for you.

          • Michelle Erb

            Ten to one she has read more of the Bible than most of the so-called Christians posting here. Certainly more than the ones who think that Christianity is the “oldest religion”, or that the Ten Commandments ban “sex,” or even that the Bible says either “life begins at conception,” or “abortion is murder.”

            Most people do not become atheists or agnostics because they are not well versed on Biblical teachings but rather because they are.

          • Itarion

            I read it. Didn’t especially like it. Frankly, I liked “I, Robot” better. And I simply must recommend “A First Course in Differential Equations” by J. David Logan, though you’ll need to read the prequels in order to understand what’s going on.

    • LeticiaVelasquez

      Yours might be coarsened by the culture of death. God promises to replace our hearts of stone with hearts of flesh if we repent of our sins and ask for His mercy. No matter what you have done, He loves you and will forgive you if you are sorry.

      • Itarion

        Look, please understand that I did not come here [half a year ago] looking for any sort of pity. Nor do I find myself especially inclinded to ask for mercy from a god which, by many accounts, has already given it.
        But beyond all of that, I find it especially ironic that you hold your god to be separate from the so-named culture of death, when religion is one of the number one instigators of death and a culture thereof.

    • Lorraine Harvey

      just means you are an unfeeling person that i firmly hope is never around children.

      • Itarion

        I have one request: Learn to understand the joke.

        • Lorraine Harvey

          god bless you!Do you deep in your soul think abortion murdering children is a joke????

          • Michelle Erb

            Her point is that she did not need this story to understand what abortion is. Getting overwrought about the visual details of a surgical abortion (one that is quite different from a typical early abortion) when you do not even know the medically necessary reason why it might have been performed is child-like.

            She was just pointing out in a flippant way that these are complicated matters that you guys keep trying to over simplify.

          • Michelle Erb

            Many of us have been emotionally impacted by things like Sandy Hook, children who lack homes or clean water, or who have been raped by those they trusted and ignored by everyone else. Not to mention all the death and mayhem being caused by extreme weather events due to man’s indifference to the environment.

            Some of us are hurt when we hear about children having their free lunches taken away after going to bed hungry. Or left motherless or born with birth defects because their mothers had their healthcare access taken away by callous Republicans. Do not even get me started on the unnecessary loss of hundreds of thousands of lives (including babies and children) in the for-profit Iraq war, or the condition of our wounded veterans.

            I almost left out the horrors of the Romanian institutions where after contraception and abortion were made illegal in that country, a hundred thousand orphans were abandoned and stored along with mentally ill and disabled adults. Many were horribly abused and few were ever shown even a modicum of love or kindness.

            Considering all that, visual imagery of a surgery that may have been medically necessary is not going to cause the emotional reaction some of you seem to expect.

          • Itarion

            Thank you for understanding what it was he was doing.

          • Michelle Erb

            Apologies if I made an incorrect gender assumption.

          • Itarion

            No, it is quite fine. I still maintain that English needs a pronoun for gender uncertainty. We have one, the other, none, but not an either.

            It’s no problem, and my own fault for not having a prof pic.

          • Itarion

            Not in the slightest. The joke here is on the qualities of my heart and the hyperbolic statement in the first line.

            There is also some seasonings in the radically different worldviews that we hold to, in this instance what constitutes murder.

            Murder is generally considered a willful killing of another human, or possibly person. My definition is a bit different from yours, similarly my understanding of what constitutes a “person”. You maintain that fetuses are literally children, and thus “people”, whereas I do not. This is where the difference is.

            Then there is the legal definition of murder, which is the sole provision of a criminal court. Thus, neither you nor I have the power to determine what is, in fact, murder, but rather a jury of peers [in the US].

            Regardless, though I do not maintain that abortion is infanticide, neither is a joke. I really should not have to explain that I don’t kill and eat babies for breakfast. [And THAT is a dead baby joke. Also an atheist stereotype/cannibalism joke. Black humor, you see.]

  • Michelle Erb

    The most important part of the story is missing. Which is the reason this surgical abortion was taking place. This is the type of abortion that is conducted in a hospital on women who desperately want a baby but something has gone very wrong.

    I realize that there are at least 6 posters on Bristol’s blogs who think abortion should be illegal even when the mother’s life is in danger, or when the fetus is so malformed that it will suffer horrible pain and ultimately die. However, I doubt if most of you feel this way.

    The description of this surgical abortion does not fit how early abortions are performed and it does not sound like the type of illegal abortion performed by a monster like Gosnell.

    So before you use the disturbing visual image to make bad law, think about who those kinds of laws effect. No matter what law you pass, almost anyone who wants them will be able to get the abortion pill or find the necessary money for an early abortion. But when you pass waiting periods for medically necessary abortions, or require women to look at pictures or be told how normal pregnancies would progress, pass laws prohibiting insurance from covering any kind of abortion (even expensive ones in an emergency hospital setting), or actually yell at visibly pregnant women on their way into clinics, you are probably adding salt to a very raw wound. The stories these women tell about having to make difficult choices when they planned for a pregnancy and would give anything for a child, are heartbreaking.

    I agree with Wendy Davis that we can revisit the timing of “viability” in cases where mother and fetus are healthy. But when it comes to situations involving the mother’s health or a horrible diagnosis, these difficult decisions should be left between the family and their doctor, not outsiders or male legislators.

    • LeticiaVelasquez

      Not true. The number of abortions has gone down from a high in 1990’s to an all time low today, thanks to restrictive laws, public awareness, Crisit Pregnancy Centers, Abstinence education, sonograms which tell the truth about life in the womb and the closing of thousands of abortion mills.

    • Kathi J

      I agree with everything you said — except for ‘revisiting timing of viability’ – viability is gestational and we don’t get to decide on when that happens. Even RTL’s medical expert agrees it’s 23/24 weeks. Not going to change.

      • guest

        Viability is the age when a baby can survive outside the womb. Since it does take into count medical technology, it can change. Thus if pregnancy is threatening the life of a woman past the point of viability, it is no longer an abortion it is an early delivery, and a team has to be on standby to try and save the baby.

        In cases where the procedure is medically necessary because the baby has a fatal condition, and the family has chosen a merciful painless death, the baby would still not be put on artificial life support, instead the family plan would be followed.

        • Kathi J

          Viability is when the lungs have developed enough to inflate, even if that means use of a respirator, if they cannot inflate, if there no blood flowing between heart and lungs, if certain gases are not present – then there is nothing medical technology can do to make that infant take a breath and live. Survival rates of preemies has dramatically changed, viability has not. And doctors only will perform C-sections when a woman’s life is in immediate danger – by then it’s usually too late to save her. Abortion needs to be legal for a woman’s unrecoverable and severe health not just her life.

  • LeticiaVelasquez

    Like the abolitionists, we must tell this story in all its bloody detail till everyone is sick to their stomachs and cry out for justice. There is no other way.

  • Rigina Corbitt

    The whole story is ruined within the first sentence….A medical student, who was firmly pro-abortion, ….. no one is PRO ABORTION!!!!! Some of believe that women should have a choice which involves themselves and their medical professional, but no one os pro abortion. That is ridiculous. That would mean one wants every single pregnancy aborted…and that, of course, is not the case. Some people just dont want to be forced into giving birth when they do not want, cannot afford to care for, or have a medical condition which prevents them from having a healthy pregnancy.!!!

    • Michelle Erb

      Well at least this time she did not call anyone an “abortion enthusiast.” Were Bristol and her fans really serious about wanting to bring others around to their alleged way of thinking they would not be so inflammatory and divisive.

    • Kathi J

      And how many abortions take place in hospitals? Almost zero and those that do are for very serious crisis situations. I call BS on the whole article.

  • mr

    I do not see how anyone with a clear mind can say there is a reason women have abortions! The so called fetus is a baby human being and has a heart beat around 6 WEEKS!!!! You are killing a live human being no matter when you have the abortion! I have three small children and would never have dreamed about even thinking about abortion! I wanted my three beautiful children! So what the doctor says that there might be something wrong with you baby… Have it anyway… There is always adoption! There are plenty of husbands and wives that wouldlove to conceive but can’t! I feel like abortion has become an option just because it is the convenient way out of a possible birth defect or a mistake from a one time thing that you didn’t want!

    • Michelle Erb

      What about to save your life or health so that you can be there for the children you have?

      Do you think it is “murder” to unplug artificial life support from an elderly person with a terminal illness who is suffering horrible pain?

      • Joshua Wilhour

        Both really bad attempts to justify the wholesale murdering of babies.

        • Joshua Wilhour

          By that I mean there are grey areas in any arguments of morality, but the vast majority of abortions are elective, and to those your positions are meaningless. 200 years ago the murder of Blacks, Indians and Chinese were justified as they were also not considered to be valuable humans. Your justifications belong in that era.

  • http://theconservativehistorian.com/wordpress The Conservative Historian

    As I normally write at the least Shakespearean plays and at worst, numerous sequels to Tolstoy’s “War and Peace” when replying to any political article, I will simply stated that when globally more than 1.5 billion unborn babies have been aborted since World War II – and recall that China has a state population of 1.3 billion – we have systematically condoned the slaughters of roughly 1.7 infants per every seven that is born. In the U.S. today, our figure of 54 million is an indictment upon our own systematic inconsistency with regards to our own commission of genocide via legalized abortions and the socialists on the Far Left demanding that the military be stripped of its funding past the formality of simply having one and still worse, the total abolition of public execution laws, citing violations of human rights due to the measures being “cruel and unusual.”

    Deaths by firearms comprise only a fraction of the percentage the total number of abortions performed successfully are tallied, which I believe the official Department of Health and Human Services cannot possibly know as was the case with Kermit Gosnell crimes of murdering scores of the unborn and yet Planned Parenthood was only willing to acknowledge how justice was served over the losses of the mothers killed during these operations.


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