Can Genuine Christians Be Trinitarian or Non-Trinitarian?

Yes. I was a Trinitarian for twenty-two years until God enlightened me through scripture that being a Christian has nothing to do with being Trinitarian. Contrary to church dogma, you don’t have to be a Trinitarian to be a Christian. And being a Trinitarian doesn’t disqualify you from being a Christian. I can prove these things from the Bible.

I was born and reared in Seattle, Washington, where I attended church Sunday school in my youth. When I was thirteen years old, one day after class I asked my teacher a theological question. He then led me in private prayer to receive Jesus into my life as my “Lord and Savior.” I was born-again.

I never heard of the doctrine of the Trinity until five years later, when I went far from home to attend college in Houston, Texas. There, at my new church, I was taught that God is a single essence existing as three co-equal and co-eternal Persons: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Like most Christians, I believed it because my pastor taught it. (I now think back and am certain I never would have believed that merely by reading my Bible.) And, like most Christians, I was taught that you must believe in the doctrine of the Trinity in order to be a real Christian. This determination was made long ago by post-apostolic church fathers, and both the Catholic Church and the Protestant Church made it official.

As a young Christian, I was concerned that Christianity had so many church denominations and that most of them had been formed due to theological disagreements between them. Plus, I was aware of other religions in the world besides mine. Because of all of this religious diversity, I concluded that people should try to learn and think for themselves about religion and do it objectively as much as possible, thus scrutinizing what they have been taught. But objectivity can be difficult to attain since it requires humility and self-critical thinking. So, I’ve made it a primary prayer request throughout my life that God would humble me and teach me his truths in the Bible. And I’ve constantly asked him that if I believe some theology that is wrong, especially if it is important, that he would show me the truth.

I never questioned my belief that God is three Persons, in which Jesus is God, until one day when I was reading Jesus’ Olivet Discourse in my Bible. I came to the place where he said concerning his second coming, “But about that day and/or hour no one knows, neither the angels of/in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father” (Matt. 24.36/Mark 13.32). I knew that verse quite well. Along with the doctrine of the Trinity, I also had been taught that Jesus had both a divine nature and a human nature, called “the hypostatic union,” and when he said in his Olivet Discourse that he didn’t know the time of his return, he was speaking only from the perspective of his human nature. Thus, he really did know it in his divine nature because he is God and God knows everything. But for the first time in my life I said to myself, “that makes Jesus look like a liar. He said he didn’t know, but he really did know.”

That caused me to undertake a very serious, in-depth study of the identity of Jesus in the Bible that lasted for decades. Besides studying scripture, praying, and reading many Bible commentaries, I estimate I eventually read about a thousand volumes on the identity of Jesus. Most of these books were authored by distinguished Bible exegetes or theologians. During this intense quest, I concluded that the Bible does not teach that Jesus is God or that God is three persons; rather, it declares only the Father is God.

So, I was a saved, born-again Christian for five years before I ever became a Trinitarian. And in being a Trinitarian for twenty-two years, I didn’t stop being a genuine Christian. Jesus was still my Lord and Savior. Thus, I still tried to live by his teachings.

Some people who believe like I do now–that only the Father is God–do like Trinitarians. They contend that a person who believes in the doctrine of the Trinity believes in three Gods and therefore is not a real Christian, but a polytheist. Some even insist that Trinitarians are idolaters. Two of my favorite Christians who believed much like I do now—the martyr Michael Servetus and the scientist Sir Isaac Newton, who discovered gravity—alleged in their writings that Trinitarians are idolaters. But what does the Bible say? Trinitarians and anti-Trinitarians deem it the final arbiter. Does the Bible allow a Christian to be Trinitarian or not?

Jesus Said that to Believe in, Receive, and Love him Is to Do likewise Regarding God the Father

  • “he who receives me receives the one who sent me” (Matt 10.40 NIV).[1]
  • “anyone who hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life” (John 5.24).
  • “My sheep hear my voice. I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life” (John 10.27).
  • “Whoever believes in me believes not in me but in him who sent me” (John 12.44).
  •  “whoever receives me receives him who sent me” (John 13.20).
  • “those who love me will be loved by my Father” (John 14.21).
  • “Those who love me will keep my word, and my Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them” (John 14.23).

Evangelistic Messages and Definitions of the Gospel in the New Testament

  • “these are written so that you may come to believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that through believing you may have life in his name” (John 20.31).
  •  “‘Sirs, what must I do to be saved?’ They answered, ‘Believe on the Lord Jesus and you will be saved’” (Acts 16.31).
  • “if you confess with your lips that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved” (Romans 10.9).
  • Paul – “I handed on to you as of first importance … that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the scriptures, and that he was buried, and that he was raised on the third day” (1 Cor 15.3-4).
  • “God abides in those who confess that Jesus is the Son of God, and they abide in God” (1 John 4.15).
  • “Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God” (1 John 5.1).

Christians Living Right and Loving One Another Proves they are Genuine Disciples of Jesus

  • Jesus said of false prophets, “you will know them by their fruits” (Matt 7.16, 20).
  • Jesus said to his disciples, “By this is my Father glorified, that you bear much fruit, and so prove to be my disciples” (John 15.8).
  • “you may be sure that everyone who does right has been born of him [Jesus]” (1 John 2.29).
  • Jesus said to his disciples, “I give you a new commandment, that you love one another…. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another” (John 13.34-35).
  • “Beloved, let us love one another, because love is from God; everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. Whoever does not love does not know God, for God is love” (1 John 4.7-8).

Many church divisions are due to too much narrowing of theological doctrine. Churches often require belief in these peculiar teachings for church membership, and some make them essential to believe for salvation even though the Bible doesn’t. The New Testament criterion, much of it quoted above, is that a person is saved by (1) believing God sent Jesus as the Christ, the Son of God, and Savior who died for our sins and arose from the dead, and (2) confessing Jesus as Lord and living for him.

So, with this biblical criterion established, it is evident that being a Trinitarian or not being one does not disqualify a person from being a real Christian if he or she professedly believes all of the above bulleted items.

This is very important. Why? The New Testament says that after loving God and Jesus the next most important thing Christians are to do is “love one another.” But, if Trinitarians condemn anti-Trinitarians who believe in Jesus, and anti-Trinitarians condemn Trinitarians who also believe in Jesus, both are condemning their spiritual brothers and sisters and thereby not proving to be Jesus’ disciples by loving one another. And the most sobering words we can read on this subject in scripture are these: “Those who say, ‘I love God,’ and hate their brothers or sisters, are liars; for those who do not love a brother or sister whom they have seen, cannot love God whom they have not seen” (1 John 4.20).


[1] All scripture references are from the New Revised Standard Version–which is preferred by scholars–unless otherwise noted.

"I think this is an overall good review of the movie, however I think you ..."

Review of the Film “The Case ..."
"Of course, the concept of unconditional love is biblical. The progressive revelation of Jesus is ..."

Is Unconditional Love a Biblical Concept?
"Greg, we certainly are together on this. It's just that we may have a small ..."

The Word Wasn’t God, Oh Heaven ..."
"Kermit - I s/note - the issue is not one of model - our models ..."

The Word Wasn’t God, Oh Heaven ..."

Browse Our Archives

Follow Us!


What Are Your Thoughts?leave a comment
  • Julius Pious

    Perfectly said :)

  • karin

    Do you fellowship with other like-minded Christians?

    • kzarley

      Good question. I’ve been a Christian, in the sense of being “born again” (Jn 3.3), for 59 years. Largely due to my life as a vagabond pro golfer on the PGA Tour, I’ve had thousands of Christian friends in my life. In 1965, I co-founded the PGA Tour Bible Study and thereafter gave leadership to it for next 17 years. So, I was among the pioneers who brought the Christian gospel to American professional sports.
      I was a Trinitarian from ages 18 to 40. I then changed to being a Christian who did not believe in the doctrine of the Trinity. But I kept it almost entirely to myself until I published my RJC book and went public with my testimony about it in 2011. Until then, all of my thousands of Christian friends were Trinitarian. I lost at least half of my closest Christian friends because of it.
      Yes, I do now have some Christian friends who are not Trinitarian and believe as I do–that only the Father is God and that Jesus is our Lord and Savior, but not God. Bu I don’t have very many. It’s not in the thousands as before. I do minister among some of them. Anthony Buzzard is one, who is professor emeritus of Atlanta Bible College. He has written books about this and has been the leading voice in the U.S. He is with the Church of God General Conference, a small church denomination. Another group is the Philadelphians, which has about 100,000 people mostly in Australia and UK. There are a few Bible scholars who agree with us but don’t go public since they’d lose their jobs.

  • Petran Baskos

    Yoy are right that only one God exist but this Got is Jesus!

    http://www.onenesspentecostal.com/father.htm

  • solitairecat64

    Scripture is very clear on the importance of sound doctrine (1 Tim 4:16, 6:3, 2 Tim 4:3) which is only the doctrine of Christ (2 John 1:9) – no other. The trinity is “different doctrine” which we are warned of the dangers of repeatedly in scripture. How can we have the Father and the Son with the trinity teaching that they are both one? Sadly many “Christians” try to be accepting of different doctrine but this is the broad road that leads to destruction. All of us need to be testing all doctrine to ensure that it agrees with the Bible which is the inspired word of GOD. It states in Gal 1:6 to 9 the importance of preaching ONLY the true gospel or “be accursed”. We must use our Bible, the inspired word of GOD, to “examine everything carefully” (1 Thes 5:21).

    The danger of following doctrine other than the inspired WORD of GOD is that you could receive “another spirit” from Satan that Paul warn of in 2 Corinthians 11: 3 & 4 “as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or [if] ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with [him].” Many will think they have Jesus Christ but won’t and at the end they will be denied access to the Kingdom of GOD as we see in Matthew 7: 21 to 23 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. “Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ “And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’ and in Matthew 15:9 “BUT IN VAIN DO THEY WORSHIP ME, TEACHING AS DOCTRINES THE PRECEPTS OF MEN.” There are quite a few religions that have their own doctrine which is something to be wary of.

    We should not downplay the importance of testing all doctrine and holding fast to the truth. Jesus’s followers are those that test everything ensuring they have the truth because only the truth will set them free (John 8:32). “No lie comes from the truth” 1 John 2:21, and “all will be condemned who have not believed the truth” 2 Thes 2:12. We are living in an age where analyzing doctrine is easier than ever. For every doctrine – the trinity, preterism (futurism, historical, modern & hyper), Israel of God, etc. – read scripture and pray for understanding because your salvation is at stake.

    • bibletruthvstradition

      Would you explain the doctrine “Israel of God”? The Bible uses this phrase once, and it refers to a group of people rather than a doctrine. Thanks!

      • solitairecat64

        Paul was very clear that Israel was not all descendants of Abraham, but those with the faith of Abraham. In Gal 6 he is talking about the circumcision party trying to mislead followers of Christ into believing circumcision was a requirement to be saved. Paul clarified saying “Those who desire to make a good showing in the flesh try to compel you to be circumcised, simply so that they will not be persecuted for the cross of Christ” v12. I guess it seemed like a good idea to some, to be circumcised to avoid persecution, yet it is returning to the flesh when we need to be of the spirit so Paul confirmed that he only boasted in “the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ” v14 stating that we are “a new creation” v15. In verse 16 when he was referring to “Israel of God” it was about those who “walk by this rule” which is the rule of the spirit not that of the flesh.

        This is the theme of the entire Gospel – only those that die to the flesh and are born again in the spirit are Israel. As Paul states in Romans 9:6 “not all who are descended from Israel are Israel”, in Gal 3:7 “those who have faith are children of Abraham”, and in Gal 3:29 “If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise”. This is similar to Paul calling New Israel the “commonwealth” in Eph 2:15 and “one new man” v15. This is also described in Paul’s description of the olive tree with natural branches (Jews) and wild branches (Gentiles) being grafted to the root which is Christ in Romans 11: 17 to 24. Paul clearly taught that the New Israel is comprised of faithful, born again believers in Jesus Christ.

        Jesus spoke of calling “all nations” in the wedding feast parable in Matthew 22: 9 & 10 where he said “’Go therefore to the main highways, and as many as you find [there], invite to the wedding feast.’ Those slaves went out into the streets and gathered together all they found, both evil and good; and the wedding hall was filled with dinner guests”. This was after the Jews had rejected him v5, and mistreated and killed his follower’s v6 and Jesus said of the Jews “those I invited did not deserve to come” v8. The calling of “all nations” was prophesied many times in the Old Testament. In Psalm 72:17 it says that “all nations be blessed through him” meaning Christ. Of Abraham it says in Gen 18:18 that “all nations on earth will be blessed through him”. Paul, being a Pharisee having an excellent understanding of bible prophecy stated “The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, ‘ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU’” In Gal 3:8.

        • bibletruthvstradition

          Thanks for all the scripture! Were you referring in your original post to a doctrine of the “Israel of God” other than this?

          • solitairecat64

            Doctrine about Israel of God is any teaching about who God’s people are. Understanding who God’s people are and the equality within the body will protect us from teachings that deny these basic truths. Mankind is being separated into two groups – wheat and weeds (Matthew 13: 24 to 30) or sheep and goats (Matthew 25:32 & 33), and the only way to tell what side a person is on is by their fruit (Matthew 12:33).

            God’s people are found in “every nation, tribe and tongue” Rev 5:9, 7:9, & 14:6. Consider how many people today believe that the Nation of Israel are God’s people and as a result have blindly supported them, politically and financially, in their persecution of the Palestinian people. If we desire to be worthy of eternal life in the New Jerusalem then we mustn’t support people that are murderers and thieves because we are guilty by association in their crimes. Think of the ignorance required to be a Zionist – ignorance of who God’s people are and his commandment to love your neighbor, and ignorance of what the Nation of Israel is doing to the Palestinians, stealing their land, murdering them and denying them basic human rights. When we see people that support murder, lies and stealing we know they are weeds or goats and on Satan’s side so we mustn’t associate with them in any way, shape or form.

            We also need to understand that God’s people are all equal members in the body (Matthew 23:8, 1 Peter 3:7, and 1 Cor 12: 12 to 31). This prevents us from marginalizing members based on their gender, age, race or financial position (James 2: 1 to 7). As Paul states in Gal 3:28 “There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.” By understanding this equality we can more easily identify false doctrine because it denies this basic truth.

  • Jesse Vick

    Yahweh declared that we should not have any other God’s before him. Calling Jesus God is basically slapping the Father in the face and being an idolater. No surprise that in todays world it is the trinity or nothing because the Devil certainly wasted no time in perverting God’s word and manipulating a Roman Emperor to push for this satanic idea of a trinity. There is nothing holy about the idea of a “trinity” either. It is pagan in origin.

    • Kris Bellemare

      Jesse I agree that God said not to have any other gods before Him, and that He would not yield or share His glory with another, and that He is a jealous God.

      How does this square with the Father sharing His glory with the Son before the world began? John 17:5

      How does this make sense in light of the fact that the the Father commanded the angels to worship the Son? Hebrews 1:6

      The Father called the Son “Oh God” in Hebrews 1:8.

      Jesus accepted worship as God without rebuke by Thomas and in the book of Revelation.

      If God created the heavens and the earth, why does Scripture say Jesus did it? John 1:1-3, Hebrews 1:2, Colossians 1:15-20.

      • http://twitter.com/natemup Nate Tinner

        I don’t think worshipping Jesus necessarily means the worshipper takes him to be God. I don’t know Kermit’s personal beliefs, by I should think a Unitarian like himself can still very much hold Jesus and the Father to be inextricably linked to one another in such a way that Jesus’ own words ring true, that he “and the Father are one” (John 10:30). Thus, Jesus can be said to have been the Father’s agent in creation and also can receive worship. “Anyone who has seen [him] has seen the Father” (John 14:9), he even said. But neither Trinitarian nor Unitarian confess Jesus to actually *be* the Father, and yet Trinitarian language often obscures that fact. Such is how many begin to drift from the latter to the former.

        I honestly don’t think Trinitarians are idolaters, but rather mistaken adopters of a system of speaking about God that is neither Jewish nor Biblical, but rather heavily influenced by pagan thought (like the contextualization of John’s Gospel on steroids).

        As for translation issues, let the record show that there are other ways to translate the Hebrews (and virtually all other “Jesus is God”) passages.

        • Kris Bellemare

          Nate, if God is a jealous God, and will not allow another to be worshiped, and every time someone worships someone that is not God is severely rebuked, and we understand that only God is worthy of worship (he ought to be!), then you are either worshiping Jesus as God, or you are committing idolatry.

          A Jesus that is God and a Jesus that is not God is not the same Jesus. It’s impossible, anymore than a person can say they know the same “Nate”, and one says he is a man, and the other says she is a woman. Nate can’t be a man and not a man at the same time and in the same way. That is too integral to your nature.

          To a unitarian, a Trinitarian MUST be an idolater if they call someone God that is not God.

          Right, neither confess Jesus to BE the Father, that is modalism. But Trinitarians clearly teach Jesus to be a person distinct from the Father, but the same God as the Bible teaches. The deity of Christ is a Biblical fact.

          You can translate any word any way you want, but that doesn’t change the original intent and meaning of the text. Thomas worshiped Jesus as “my Lord and my God”. God created, Jesus created all things, nothing was created without Him, heavens, the earth, visible, and invisible.

          Translating the Bible to say what it does not say sounds like you are changing the Word of God to mean what you want it to mean rather than taking it for what it says. I think the points I made above were very clear.

          Furthermore, Jesus of the New Testament is called the Yahweh of the Old Testament in Hebrews 1 as well. You just can’t get around what the Bible makes plain. Not unless you are spiritually blind.

          • http://twitter.com/natemup Nate Tinner

            I see your point, but I think the typical assumption that lies behind “Jesus is God” is more complex (and, probably, obtuse) than can be thereafter fit into the categories of idolatry and true worship in Scripture. After all, Jesus was indeed worshipped (“proskuneo”-ed, if you will) throughout the New Testament, and typically after doing something characteristic of God, his Father. Thomas exclaimed “My Lord and my God”, but that can obviously mean a number of things (such as when we might use that exclamation in today’s world to express shock and/or awe). Also, Jesus is never called Yahweh; the Greek never uses the tetragrammaton and Hebrews 1 quotes verses in a way that precludes Jesus being Yahweh by explaining that God is speaking to him, though obviously calling him (a?) “god” as well; again, this could mean a number of things and Unitarians have their positions and they are at least somewhat coherent.

          • Kris Bellemare

            I think it is QUITE a stretch to imagine Thomas meaning something other than what he said, without using eisegesis to force your interpretation into the text. The entire Biblical text declares Jesus to be God.

            For instance, if you read Psalm 102:25-27, it says, “Of old you laid the foundation of the earth,
            and the heavens are the work of your hands. They will perish, but you will remain; they will all wear out like a garment. You will change them like a robe, and they will pass away, but you are the same, and your years have no end.28 The children of your servants shall dwell secure; their offspring shall be established before you.”

            Who does this speak of? Who is the “You”? Go back and you can see David name the “you” several times in the passage. “But you, O Lord, are enthroned forever; you are remembered throughout all generations.”

            David speaks of “Yahweh”, using His divine name.

            Now let’s look at Hebrews, Chapter 1:

            “8 But of the Son he says,

            “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever,
            the scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your kingdom.
            9 You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;
            therefore God, your God, has anointed you
            with the oil of gladness beyond your companions.”

            10 And,

            “You, Lord, laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning,
            and the heavens are the work of your hands;
            11 they will perish, but you remain;
            they will all wear out like a garment,
            12 like a robe you will roll them up,
            like a garment they will be changed.[a]
            But you are the same,
            and your years will have no end.””

            As you can see, the writer of Hebrews refers to the Son as the Yahweh spoken of in Psalm 102.

            Furthermore, you can see in John 12:41 where John refers to Jesus as the one Isaiah saw, and gives us a quote of Isaiah 6 to show exactly what he is talking about. When you read Isaiah 6, you are blown away by his vision of God and His holiness.

            Sorry, but there is far too much Scripture twisting to evade how clearly the Bible demonstrates that Jesus is God, which is why the Pharisees wanted to kill Him. He is called “God” by the Father in Hebrews 1:8 (not “a God”), He is called God as the Word in John 1:1, He is called the Creator of all things in John 1:3, Hebrews 1:2, Colossians 1:16, He shares glory with the Father, who will yield His glory to NO ONE else in John 17:5 prior to Creation, and He is worshiped as God all over the New Testament and in Revelation, when in EVERY other single instance, any being other than God being worshiped immediately corrects and rebukes the person.

          • kzarley

            Kris, see my 600-page book The Restituion of Jesus Christ in which I cite over 400 scholars regarding the critical texts in the Bible abou this subject, including these you cite: John 1.1c, 20.28 and Heb 1.8.

            As for John 12.41, yes, it does refer to Isaiah’s vision of Yahweh seated on his heavenly throne in “his glory,” in Isaiah 6.1-3. But later, when Isaiah proclaims Yahweh’s righteous “servant,” in Isaiah 42-55, the prophet speaks on behalf of Yahweh, saying, “I am the LORD, that is my name; my glory I give to no other” (Isaiah 42.8). Since the context is his blessed, righteous “servant” in v. 1, which we Christians believe refers to Jesus, this text in v. 8 must mean that Yahweh will give his glory to Jesus, as representative head of Israel, and to no other. In John 17,5, Jesus does not mean that he preexisted, eternally or otherwise, but that God had determined before he created the world that he would share his glory with Jesus. Thus, Jesus said that at his second coming, “the Son of Man is to come with his angels in the glory of his Father” (Matt 16.27).

          • Kris Bellemare

            Thank you, but I am going to stick with the Bible and am not going to read 600 pages that tell me something different than what it teaches.

            Think about what you just wrote:

            “As for John 12.41, yes, it does refer to Isaiah’s vision of Yahweh seated on his heavenly throne in “his glory,” in Isaiah 6.1-3. ”

            Yes, that is Jesus.

            “I am the LORD, that is my name; my glory I give to no other” (Isaiah 42.8).”

            “Since the context is his blessed, righteous “servant” in v. 1, which we Christians believe refers to Jesus, this text in v. 8 must mean that Yahweh will give his glory to Jesus. “”

            So when Yahweh says He will give His glory to no other, you believe He means He will give His glory to Jesus???

            Yes, His servant is Jesus, God in the flesh. Remember those passages that spoke of Jesus being the Creator, referred to in Hebrews 1:10-12 as the Yahweh who laid the foundations of the earth? You referred me to Isaiah 42, which says, “Thus says God, the Lord,who created the heavens and stretched them out,who spread out the earth and what comes from it,”

            Sounds an awful lot like John 1:3 “3 All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.” and the other verses that speak of Jesus as Creator.

            It just stretches God too far to imagine that this jealous God, who will not share His glory with another, shared His glory with Jesus before the world was made, and commanded His angels to worship Jesus would command anyone to worship anyone other than God Himself.

            Again, the first and second commandment regard God’s jealousy and desire that He alone be worthy of all glory, honor, and praise.

            You can write as many pages as you want, and you’d probably need 600 to make the Bible say something that it so clearly does not say. I think my last post to you stands on its own and unrefuted by your rebuttal.

            “In John 17,5, Jesus does not mean that he preexisted”

            John 17:5 And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed.

            I rest my case.

            I realize this goes against the ecumenical tone of your post, but I have a really hard time imagining a Spirit-filled Christian who rejects Jesus as God along with all the Bible testimony to that effect.

          • kzarley

            What’s the difference between me expressing myself on what I think the Bible says on some subject by writing it in a book and you expressing yourself on what you think the Bible says on the same subject?

            I said above that in Isa 42.8, Yahweh says he will give his glory to none other than his righteous servant, who we Christians believe refers to Jesus as confirmed in the NT.

            I think the prepositions translated “in” and “through” in such NT texts as John 1.3, Col 1.15-17, and others mean no more than that in God’s plan for creation he had Jesus in mind to be its head. Thus, these texts do not indicate that Jesus literally preexisted. It was only God’s plan for his creation, which included Jesus, obviously, that preexisted God’s creation.

            So, I’m not Spirit-filled, or should you say Spirit-indwelt? I think there is a difference: Spirit-filled refers to a moment in time; Spirit-indwelt is the status of all Christians at all times. Well, read my next book that will be out soon, entitled Solving the Samaritan Riddle.

            Your comment about me is not “ecumenical”? It’s worse than that; it’s judgmental. If you say I don’t have the Spirit of God, according to Paul (Roman 8.9) that means I’m not a Christian.

          • http://twitter.com/natemup Nate Tinner

            I was referring to the fact that in verse 9 God is referred to as this god’s God, which suggests two beings, only one of whom can obviously be Yahweh God. Obviously the Trinitarian position says multiple beings can be the one Yahweh, but that’s obtuse and I am not convinced the author Hebrews (or any other Biblical author) intended it to be interpreted that way. Unitarians point out rightly that other beings are called “god” in Scripture without being referred to as Yahweh God (“capital-G God”, if you will), and so we shouldn’t assume that this changes just because Jesus is involved. They also point out that verse 10 may be starting a new thought entirely; I am not so convinced of that position, but I would hold to a similar position as that above, that a quotation of an OT verse that appear to call Jesus Yahweh does not necessarily force us to conclude “Jesus and the Father are both Yahweh,” but rather that Jesus can be so uniquely identified with the Father as to be called Yahweh. As such, he participated in creation, is to be worshipped, etc.

          • Kris Bellemare

            Nate, I think you have probably studied and discussed the Trinity with Trinitarians enough to not make the following statement, “Obviously the Trinitarian position says multiple beings can be the one Yahweh”. I have heard this accusation from “biblical” unitarians many times, but we don’t believe in three beings, and trying to redefine our beliefs is a straw man fallacy.

            Hebrews 1:9, among the passages that refer to Jesus as Yahweh and the Father commanding His angels to worship Jesus, simply refers to the Trinitarian God, the Father and the Son, and the Son’s subordination to the Father.

            I have read Anthony Buzzard’s and the unitarian response to verse 10, but anyone can see it doesn’t make any sense that way. What it demonstrates is a precommitment to Jesus being a lesser creation of God, and that all Scriptures, no matter how plain, must be reinterpreted by that presupposition.

            You can pick one verse, say Hebrews 1:10, in isolation and try to deal with it, but it isn’t only one verse that demonstrates Jesus is God. It is the entirety of Scripture from beginning to end, as I have made the case. John said that Isaiah saw Jesus in Isaiah 6:1-6, who is “Holy, holy, holy”.

            Jesus IS uniquely identified with the Father, because they are one. I don’t know if you are one of the extreme unitarians who deny the preexistence of Christ, like Sir Anthony Buzzard, but if you are, then how can you say He participated in Creation?

          • http://twitter.com/natemup Nate Tinner

            You don’t believe the Father, Son, and Spirit are 3 beings? I am confident that Trinitarians do in fact believe this. Hebrews 1:9 uses the Greek “kurios”, which doesn’t always mean “Yahweh”. Moreover, only the Septuagint includes the world “Lord” in Psalm 102:25 in the first place, where it would also be “kurios” and therefore ambiguous as to whether it means “Yahweh” or the more general “Lord” (“adonai” in Hebrew, as opposed to the Tetragrammaton). There are other verses that are better representatives of Jesus being called Yahweh more directly.

            In any case, neither I nor Buzzard (to my knowledge) take Jesus to be a creation at all, especially not a lesser one. We just don’t take him to be Yahweh, because someone else (the Father) already is. I would readily admit that the two beings, the Father/Yahweh and Jesus, are nearly indistinguishable and in many cases interchangeable, and I continue to wrestle with what the NT authors like John meant when they referred to Jesus as “God” or “Yahweh”, but the Trinitarian option as dogma is what I say is unnecessary. To say “Jesus is God” is the theme of Scripture throughout is an overstatement, but when it does come up it is obviously climactic, theologically speaking. I’ll grant that. But the strict Trinitarian formula (and especially its development in the Reformed world) goes beyond Scripture in my opinion.

          • kzarley

            I don’t know what the point is in your first two sentences. I believe God, who is Yahweh in the OT, is called “Father” by the man Jesus in the NT. Thus, Jesus and the Father are separate beings. But the (Holy) Spirit is the Spirit of the Father and thus not a personal being just as the spirit of man, made in God’s image, is not a personal being separate and distinct from man.

            As far as I know, Buzzard regards Jesus as a created being just as I do. We do not regard Jesus as anything other than a human being who did not have a preexistence but did have a virgin birth.

            I was a Trinitarian for 22 years. But the last 35 years I do not believe the Bible says anywhere that Jesus is God. I have dozens of posts about it on this blog. See Categories/Christology. Better yet, get and read my book about it, The Restitution of Jesus Christ.

            When speaking of what Trinitarians believe, there can be a significant difference between what informed Trinitarian scholars believe is orthodox Trinitarianism and what the average Trinitarian Christian thinks it means. Trinitarian scholars generally believe the church doctrine of the Trinity means Yahweh (=Godhead) is a triune being that subsists as three persons (Gr. hypostases) who are eternal and equal (Gr. homoouisios=same substance=Latin consubstantial). Thus, Trinitarianism gets very nuanced by distinguishing between being and person.

          • http://twitter.com/natemup Nate Tinner

            Kris, above my last comment, said that “[Trinitarians] don’t believe in 3 beings,” which I attempted to rebut. He may have misspoken, but I responded to what it appeared he was arguing. I am somewhere between standard Trinitarianism and the Unitarianism of you and Buzzard, as I agree with you that Jesus and the Father are separate (though “one” in some sense) and that the Spirit is, well, a spirit, but I do not agree that Jesus is a created being. I plan on buying your book eventually, but I do not anticipate ever making that theological leap to reduce Jesus to a mere specially-born human being. I believe the virgin birth was necessary because Jesus was preexistent, as opposed to (what I presume is) your belief that for him to be preexistent makes him too much like God. I think that’s the point.

          • http://twitter.com/natemup Nate Tinner

            Yes, I see. I have read read your background, but did not quite realize you take Jesus to be created. I appreciate many of your insights, but I do not take that to be one of them.

      • Julius Pious

        hey Kris did Jesus quote all those scriptures you did to prove the Trinity?

        • Israel Rodriguez

          Jesus said in John “If you have seen me you have seen the Father.” In Revelations 1 He identifies Himself as the Alpha and Omega. In John again He says he and the Father are one. Isaiah 9:6 prophesied there would be born one who was the Mighty God and Everlasting Father. Does this mean mean that God was born? No. God has always been but he entered this world as a man. This vessel of flesh was what was born.

          • Julius Pious

            Jesus also says “None has seen God but the Son”

            Now because of your polytheistic tendencies that you are in denial of you will say something to tickle your ear.

            but this is what he means: If you have seen me you have seen how Yahweh[who alone is God and Never Changes in form] thinks and acts and behaves. Because Jesus was a perfect example of how Yahweh wants people to think and act and behave.

            The literal being of God no man has seen. But the way in which God wants us to behave is shown in Jesus Christ.

            Jesus got on his hands, knees’, and forehead to Pray to Yahweh… Just like the Muslims do.

            Muslim in english means :One who submits to God” and jesus clearly submitted to God.

          • Julius Pious

            Take this into consideration also, Yahweh CLEARLY says he is God. Yet Jesus NEVER CLEARLY says he is God. He calls himself a prophet, the son of man, and the son of God. But never says he is God.

            Yahweh kills because he has the right to, since he created life he can take life. He killed all the 1st born sons of Egypt.

            Jesus never kills because he is not God and does not have that right.

          • Julius Pious

            Isaiah says “mighty” not “Almighty”
            Only Yahweh is referred to as Almighty.

            Jesus does not speak in Revelations, this is what John writes not what Jesus says.

            The greek word “One” used here is different than the greek word used in
            mark 10:8 where Jesus says that man and wife become “One” flesh which is what your thinking of.

            Therefore “One” here means union or like one team or purpose. Not being as in “One” used in Mark 10:8

        • kzarley

          Julius, dispense with this harsh rhetoric or I’ll have to delete you.

          • Julius Pious

            There I edited. But you should not be so soft on people who break the 1st commandment of Yahweh Almighty in Exodus 20:2-7

            The most critical truth is that there is NO god but Yahweh…

    • Jeff Grant

      True – but it was several Roman Emperors, and mostly motivated by the desire to unify their Empire.

  • Kris Bellemare

    Kermit, I appreciate your thoughtful essay on this topic.

    You said, “The New Testament criterion, much of it quoted above, is that a person is saved by (1) believing God sent Jesus as the Christ, the Son of God, and Savior who died for our sins and arose from the dead, and (2) confessing Jesus as Lord and living for him.”

    And here is where I find the problem in your argument. I have discussed this over the years many, many times, and there are many people who take one side or the other, and there are others in the middle who say as long as we trust in Jesus, we are saved. I agree that we are saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ and His atoning work on the cross and resurrection. But we don’t all believe in the same Jesus, and only the actual Jesus can save a person — not a mythical one. Does that make sense?

    In other words, Jesus is either deity incarnate, or He is not God and only the Father is God. That is a very fundamental difference, and they cannot both be true. Therefore, if I say Jesus is God, and you say He is not, one of us worships a Jesus that doesn’t exist. I am interested in reading what you think of this.

    • kzarley

      Kris, I hear you. I have a close male friend, whose Trinitarian parents had substantial Christian ministry. He himself was ministering to prisoners who he said believed in different “Jesuses.” It caused him to reexamine Jesus in the New Testament, and he strongly concluded Jesus is not God while holding firm to him as Savior and Lord. But he now views Trinitarians as believing in a different Jesus from the Jesus he now believes in. Maybe a case can be made for that from 2 Cor 11.4–“someone comes and proclaims another Jesus.” But I doubt it. Both me and my friend each believed for over 20 years that Jesus was and is God. Then we changed to believing he is not God, but still our Lord and Savior. I don’t think we now believe in a different Jesus than as we did before. We now merely believe more accurately about Jesus’ identity. I guess this really just comes down to semantics. But as far as I’m concerned, Jesus is my Lord and Savior, so that I’m saved and belong to him, but the same is true of almost all of my Christian friends who are strongly Trinitarian. Thus, I believed in the same Jesus when I was a Trinitarian as I do now as a non-Trinitarian, but I now believe more accurately about who Jesus has always been–only a man, but since his resurrection an immortal man.

      • Israel Rodriguez

        I come from Trinitarian background and recently took in the oneness pentecostal view of the Godhead.
        Isaiah 43:11 KJV – I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me – Bible …
        I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.

        This is saying that only God is savior and none beside Him. Jesus must be God for us to have salvation in Him. When the Word of God uses the term Lord with a capital L, it’s common knowledge that it refers to the Divine God, so how can you day that you accepted Him as Lord and Savior, but He isn’t God?

        • kzarley

          1. I understand Isa 43.11 as God, who is the Father, being the Savior through the Lord Jesus Christ. There are many NT texts that describe God as Savior and Jesus as Savior. For example, Luke says when the angel Gabriel appeared to the virgin Mary and told her she would give birth to “Son of the Most High” (Lk 1.32), who is God, Mary said, “My soul magnifies the Lord, and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior.” Then Luke says when Jesus was born an angel appeared and said to Mary, “to you is born this day in the city of David a Savior, who is the Messiah, the Lord” (Lk 2.11). So, God and Jesus are both Savior and Lord.
          2. Trinitarians err in saying Jesus had to be God to save us. Some church fathers started saying that in the fourth century, e.g., Athanasius. But that idea came from Greek philosophy, and there is no biblical support for it. In contrast, the author of Hebrew says Jesus “had to become like his brothers and sisters in every respect … to make a sacrifice of atonement for the sins of the people” (Hebrews 2.17). Thus, Jesus had to be fully human to save us. Jesus being both human and God is not being fully human.
          3. United Pentecostals believe in one God manifested in three different modes–Father, Son, and Spirit. Thus, they believe the Father and Jesus are one being/person. I think that is quite wrong. The NT constantly diferentiates the Father and Jesus as two separate and distinct individuals.

          • Israel Angel Rodriguez

            1. Actually, modalism which is very similar to what modern day Oneness adherents believe, was the most common belief from the Apostolic age to the Greek apologist age, which is where its started dying out after the church began to bring pagan and philosophical beliefs. Arianism, which is the root of Unitarianism, is actually what paved the way to what would evolve into binitarianism and eventually trinitarianism. It all started with the philosophical belief that the impersonal logos (or reason, knowledge, word) of God became a personal distinct being. From there the belief of the wisdom as a distinct person (the Holy Spirit as Trinitarians believe) was explored. After so many years the modern Trinity doctrine came to be, but you can see from the post apostolic age writings that modalism was the original belief of the church. Even Origen and Tertullian themselves in their writings admitted that the common belief was that of monarchian modalism and that it was because common people weren’t as educated as they were. Unfortunately as sin and paganism began infiltrating the church, the empowerment and discernment of the Holy Spirit( not third person, just God in activity) in people wasn’t as common and the church let its guard down allowing the type of controversy Paul tried to prevent in 1 Timothy 3:16 to happen. The church did what Colossians 2:8-10 warns us not to do.
            2. The thing is Jesus could be fully human even if he was Human and God. The reason for this is he wasn’t half and half but whole and whole. There is a distinction of natures and to an extent persons, but not divine and divine. It is a divine and human distinction when deity was fused but not confused or united but not mixed with the human nature in Christ.

          • kzarley

            1. Well, I disagree strongly that Jesus’ apostles believed and preached modalistic monoarchianism. As I said, the NT is quite clear that God, whom Jesus called “Father,” and Jesus are two distinct, separate individuals. And Arianism is most certainly not the root of Unitarianism. Arians believed Jesus was God and that he preexisted as the Logos-Son, but that God created the Logos-Son before he created the universe, so that the Logos-Son did not preexist eternally as God did. Unitarians did not believe Jesus was God or that he preexisted. Historians agree that Arius trumpeted the view of the apologists, and the Nicene and ante-Nicene church fathers deemed it heretical. I agree with you that the Logos is not a personal being but the word of God comparable to the wisdom of God.
            2. I believe Jesus had one nature just as we do, and thus it was a human nature except that due to his virgin birth he came into this world as Adam did, without sin. Jesus still has a human nature, but his resurrection made him immortal. Deity belongs only to God.

          • http://twitter.com/natemup Nate Tinner

            Perhaps it should be said that we cannot press the notion of Jesus and the Father being “separate”, as that certainly was not an emphasis Jesus held to. I am not sure where I am on this issue, but I think I drift toward Unitarianism (or your position, if you choose not to use that language) as of very recently, but I certainly want to be able to mediate between that position and that of a Trinitarian. In the pursuit of that aim, I have to affirm that Jesus is not God in the sense that he is not the Father, but yet he “and the Father are one” (John 10:30); should not a verse like that make me cautious to say they are “separate”?

          • kzarley

            Nate, I believe, as Trinitarians do, that the NT makes it very clear that Jesus and God the Father are two distinct individuals or persons, and we are only using the word “separate” to say this. It would be like saying two brothers are two distinctly separate individuals/persons. It is Oneness Pentecostals (ancient Sabellians) who differ. Being modalistic monarchians, they believe the Father and Jesus are not two persons but “manifestations” of the one individual/person who is the one God. (No, only the Father is God.) Their chief biblical text to support their position is John 10.30, which you cite here. I believe that both them and most Trinitarians during church history have erred on this text, the latter saying the “one” (Gr. hen) means “one in essence thus referring to the Triune God. Most distinguished, contemporary Trinitarian scholars, e.g., Catholic Joseph Fitzmyer, don’t believe that anymore because it disregards the context. Verse 29 shows that the “one” in v. 30 means that the Father and the Son (Jesus) are unified in purpose and work.

          • http://twitter.com/natemup Nate Tinner

            What you have said is coherent and true, but I’m not so sure all (or most) Trinitarians are really using the word “separate” (or “one”, for that matter) so carefully.

          • Julius Pious

            The earliest Gospel was written 10-30 years after Jesus died. It is foolish to consider it as a grounds for any doctrine. Jesus didn’t quote the book of John or Romans or any of the letters his apostles wrote. EVERYTHING you need is in the Hebrew Bible. Do not ever !!!! supplant nt over ot. N.T. writings are ear candy but not doctrine. Yahweh Alone is God. Yahweh created his servant the prophet jesus.

          • Israel Rodriguez

            I never said there were two other gods. It is trinitarians who believe that three are in one. I know God is absolutely one and there is none beside Him. And you cannot live under the old covenant. The New Testament is about the fulfillment of the Old Covenant by Jesus because He is the ULTIMATE sacrifice. Jesus is the manifestation of Yahweh in the flesh and has the name which is above all names and the only name by which we can be saved. Yeshuah which is Jesus!

          • Julius Pious

            “For I, Yahweh, don’t change; …” ~Malachi 3:6
            “God is NOT a man…” ~Numbers 23:19
            “God(YHWH) is a spirit…” ~Jesus Christ John 4:24

            What you say goes against Bible teachings. Clearly Yahweh does not change, he is a spirit, and is not a man. Because he does not change he cannot become a man. Yahweh is a spirit and invisible and formless. Jesus was flesh, was a man, and was visible.

            The New Testament is simply an account of what happened after The Prophet Jesus died. The apostles never intended to invent new scripture.

            And MOST certainly they didn’t intend to testify against The “Schema”. Wiki Shema. Your belief is in opposition to The Shema which Jesus testified to in Mark 12:29-32

            The Quran is the literal word of The God of Abraham.

            The Muslims have the nature of God 100%
            They too believe in The God of Abraham (i.e. Ibrahim)

            1,700,000,000 ~ billion Muslims testify to the True Nature of God Almighty.

          • Israel Rodriguez

            The fact that there are many Muslims has no value in proving its validity as the true religion (no religion is true anyways, religion doesn’t bring salvation, only a real relationship with God). Jesus said multitudes and even the elect would be deceived in the last days. This is a hidden gem that shows that Islam is false religion rising. Do you know how your “prophet” received his “revelation”? The “Angel Gabriel” brought him the “revelation.” Paul warned the church in Galatians 1:8-9 that if even an angel preached any other Gospel, let him be accursed. The Quran is simply edits of Old Testament, New Testament and the Talmud. Very bad edits if I may say, with all due respect.
            Yahweh didn’t change his form. Jesus was the radiance of His glory. Yahweh didn’t change his form from Spirit to flesh, the Spirit dwelt in the flesh, and I serve only one Lord who is Yahweh Saviour. He manifested himself in the flesh to show us how to live and to offer this flesh vessel as the sacrifice to deliver us from this present evil world.
            So here I present to you this hope. Repent, be Baptized in Jesus’ Name, Receive His gift of the Holy Ghost and you will see God and be accepted by Him.

          • Julius Pious

            “The God of our ancestors raised Jesus from the dead” ~Acts 5:30

            “The God of Abraham, and of Issac, and of Jacob hath glorified his SERVANT Jesus…” ~ Acts 3:13

            “Jesus replied, ‘The Father alone has the authority to set those dates and times” ~Acts 1:7

            Clearly Jesus is not God. Yahweh is God. But of course:

            You are an Idolator and you will probably go to Hell for hearing the truth that I preach to you yet denying.

            I understand you are an intelligent person and you try to make simple facts more complex than they actually are. You must deny this urge and accept this simple fact:

            1) Yahweh is the Only God.
            2) Yahweh has always been the Only God.
            3) Yahweh Will Always be the Only God.

            It’s that simple. Really. I know you are an idolator and want to make Jesus an idol and justify your desire by saying he is Gods’ “Spirit dwelt in the flesh”.

            Gods’ spirit is in all the true believers. This does not make us all God. God manifested himself in the flesh with All the Prophets(They were each fleshly representations of God during their intervals of time). The Prophet Isaiah, Jeremiah, Abraham, Issac, Noah, etc. This does not make them Yahweh. I am guessing you have not studied the Bible carefully which is why you are ignorant of this.

            Take this last point into account… God’s Spirit is probably significantly composed of Electricity. Electricity is all around us and in us (study Electromagnetism to learn about this) so he probably sends electrical signals through this system to our minds and bodies. The stronger our Faith the stronger these electrical connections become. Therefore I theorize that quite literally physically he is apart of us and in us and all around us. And especially in and apart of my Messiah Jesus Christ(who is not God, but a servant of God with EXTREMELY strong faith).

            I went to University for Computer Engineering just to let you know.

          • Israel Rodriguez

            First off Sir… You are stating some pretty pantheistic things right now saying those statements about God being in us and around us because He is is composed of electricity and electricity is around us. The bible never says He is made of electricity. He is Spirit and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and in truth.

            Second
            Now did you forget to mention Jesus told the Pharisees He would raise Himself from the dead?
            John 2:19 – Jesus answered them, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.”
            God didn’t dwell in Christ the same way He does to believers when baptized in the Holy Ghost. We are composed of Body, Soul and Spirit. God’s spirit was the Spirit that Christ had for he had adopted human characteristics. Hebrews 2:17 tells us He did this so that he could go through what we go through as humans and be merciful. Did God transmutate? No, He overshadowed Mary and adopted human nature.
            Romans 8 speaks about the Spirit of God raising Christ from the dead, and in verse 9 it uses Spirit of God and Spirit of Christ interchangeably.
            The problem with the things you are posting from the Bible is you only chose the verses to fit your view. Read it and view scripture in light of scripture for the Bible doesn’t contradict itself, the verses that seem to do so are to be taken in context and you’ll see they compliment each other.
            Psalm 119:160 says Thy word oh Lord is true from beginning to end and every one of thy righteous laws endureth for ever.

            Third, did you ignore what I wrote about how Islam was founded and what God’s word has to say about that?
            (Note that while I presented you The Hope, at the end of my post, you presented condemnation to hell on yours…just an observation)

            Last, do you believe that Jesus the Messiah is the Savior? Or do you deny this as well?

            P.S.
            Degrees in physical things mean nothing when it’s about God’s word just to let you know, With all due respect!

          • Israel Rodriguez

            I forgot to respond to the Jesus being a servant part…

            Phillipians 2:5-8 Tell us He is God. It lets us know He humbled himself so that we would keep this same mindset of serving others, but one day everyone will have unveiled faces and behold Him in all His Glory. We will see Him for who He truly is and every tongue shall confess JESUS CHRIST IS LORD!

          • Jeff Grant

            The OT prophets were not conceived of the Spirit of God in the womb of a virgin. I do agree that Jesus said the Spirit of God would be sent to us to guide and comfort us (John 14:16 – my paraphrase) but I note that Jesus then implies that this comforter had already been with them (in Jesus?) and that this Paraklete is perhaps the means by which Jesus would remain with his followers. (John 4:18)

          • Julius Pious

            You disrespect my God Yahweh when you say there are 2 other gods beside him. Exodus 3:14&15, 20:2-7… Duet 6:4

            hear oh Israel Yahweh our God is ONE Yahweh

          • Julius Pious

            According to the Jews exodus 3:14 is rendered in English as “I will be what I will be”
            the heretic trinitarians changed it to ” I am what I am” to tickle their polytheistic ears because that’s what Satan whisperd into their ears

            the idea ex 3:14 is trying to imply is Yahwehs’ will causes to be what will be.

          • Jeff Grant

            Hi – great discussion. I like your stance on other Christians, as I know that we belong to Jesus on the criteria stated in Scripture, not on the certainty of our person faith, much less the completeness of our knowledge.
            On the incarnation, though, you quote Heb 2.17 and I point out the word translated “become”, and the context a few verses earlier where Psalm 8:5 is referenced ” …made Him for a little while lower than the angels…”
            To me its seems that Jesus had a life before his earthly ministry, a life of glory with his Heavenly Father, which he gave up for a time to become incarnate.
            Now, I know you struggle with the whole issue then of what he knows or doesn’t know during his earthly life – all I can say on that is… so do I. I’m not a Trinitarian because I don’t see Jesus claiming to be equal to the Father, or the Spirit of God claiming anything at all.

      • KR

        Nice response…not a different Jesus, a more accurate understanding of him.

  • James Sochacki

    When you believed in the Trinity, you believed in one God that had 3 parts – The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit. Now you believe in one God, that he has an Only Begotten Son and that God sends out His Holy Power. Are these not two completely different understandings of who the Creator of the Universe is and what His plan is?

    There was Abraham and then Isaac and then Rebecca. There was Joseph who was second in command only to Pharaoh at the age of 30 and the 70 Israelites who came to Egypt to bless Egypt and to grow into a mighty nation themselves. There is God, Jesus and the Bride of Christ and then the blessing of all the nations of the Earth as promised to Abraham.

    There is Jesus, the Son of God, who loved God with all his heart, soul and mind and who was willing to carry out His Father’s plan and die. There is God who is immortal and cannot die who raised Jesus from the dead because Jesus was faithful unto death and received the seat on the right hand of the Heavenly Father. Now through His Holy Power, God is choosing a Bride for His Son just as Abraham chose a wife for His Son through his power that loved the LORD her GOD with all her heart, soul and mind.

    Otherwise you have to have another explanation of this Glorious Plan.

    • Gabriel Baluta

      Pace on you! As you know, we were made the image of God… You say:”When you believed in the Trinity, you believed in one God that had 3 parts – The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit.”… If we asume that the Tabernacle or the Temple of OT, somehow point to the Son, so, somehow point to the human body – where exist 2 rooms: the holy and the most holy – where the Son demonstrate that is possible to live the Father spirit in the human body, can you explain how the human body have 3 parts, because we are the image of Them?!?… Anticipathed thanks!

      • kzarley

        Your analogy of three parts of a human body does not parallel the doctrine of the Trinity, which says God is three separate, individual beings or persons. Trinitarian scholars admit that people constantly make insufficient analogies to explain their doctrine. And they further admit that even the best analogies do not prove the doctrine of the Trinity as being true. I never said what you are saying I said. A human being is a single person. Since the Bible says that we humans were made in the image of God, I believe that requires that God is a single person as well.

        • Gabriel Baluta

          We don’t need more analogies to explain some doctrine… We have enough analogies in scripture between: God &His Son and the next: Sun & Moon, Man & Woman, Son & His church, Tabernacle & human body… So we not need to explain the trinity doctrine, because is a human doctrine elevated artificially to spiritual one… Therefore no exist more analogies to demonstrate it in the scriptures…

  • Logicalfallacy

    In one glorious vision, Joseph Smith received knowledge of the Godhead that shed light on thousands of years of questioning and unsound doctrine. Trinitarianism is not a correct belief. I found your information very interesting and bold. Congratulations and taking a step closer to the truth.

    • http://twitter.com/natemup Nate Tinner

      I should think Unitarians and Trinitarians are united in holding Joseph Smith to have had no knowledge of God whatsoever, a charlatan influenced by demons.

      • Debunker

        The Mormon God is flesh & bones, confirmed by a vision in the woods. “God is a Spirit”, confirmed by Jesus Christ himself. Who better would know?

  • DavidBurdick

    Jesus and His Father are God.
    They are both named Jehovah because they were both made up the Godhead, just as
    the first man and his wife were named Adam as progenitors of humanity (Gen.
    5:2). We hear of the Son of God long before He was incarnated. Daniel saw
    Messiah and as One like the Son of man; Micah knew of Him (Mic. 5:2); Jacob
    knew Him (Gen. 49:10); Paul wrote that Christ was the God of the Old Testament
    (1Cor 10:4); and John agreed (Jn. 1:1,2). Jesus was God from everlasting, but
    His Father was always greater. As God of the Old Testament, we shrink in
    comparison to Him, but when we see Him in the visions, He shrinks in comparison
    to God, His Father. This doesn’t diminish the “all power” to save
    from sin that was given to Him by His Father, and it does no damage to the
    Son’s authority and self-sacrificing love. But it magnifies the Father’s
    authority and power and love.

    The Spirit is Their Spirit, as Romans 8:9 clarifies. Laying every other reference to the Spirit (Holy
    Spirit, Holy Ghost) over Romans 8:9 we understand those other references
    correctly. It says that the Spirit is the medium of manifestation for the two
    divine Ones who rule in the army of heaven. The Spirit is not a third person of
    the Godhead. It has no personality apart from Them. It has no individuality,
    voice, power, presence, existence, apart from the Holy Father and His holy,
    only begotten Son. The Spirit we sense by faith is the Father through Jesus;
    the Spirit is Jesus by the power of His Father. That brings Jesus real close.
    He is our comforter, and His Father is the other Comforter, just as our parents
    are our earthly comforters.

    Though the mother is the
    weaker vessel, yet she does so much more for us, directly and more intimately.
    While the father also loves us and provides for us, but more indirectly. I
    believe that the Son of God (the Lord God, Prince of heaven) created Adam in
    His Father’s image, and He created Eve in His own image. Adam would have the
    final say, and at first before Eve was brought forth from him, Adam had the
    only say. Eve was made with all the machinery to birth a race through Adam, as
    “God…created all things by Jesus Christ.” (Eph. 3:9). Eve’s voice
    was in the comfortable frequency range of the children’s, as Jesus was the Word
    of God to all Their “family in heaven and earth.” (Eph. 3:15). Eve
    would have birthed children painlessly, just as the Son of God formed His first
    humans painlessly. But after sin, Eve’s birthing would greatly multiply her sorrows,
    just as the Son’s sorrows would be greatly multiplied for our second birth, and
    for His perfected intercession in our behalf.

    • Brigadon

      That is one hell of a reach. literally.

  • brotherton cat

    I love my wife regardless of what people say or think she is Oneness, but I still love her I will pray for her that the Father comes to her and reveals himself to her. I am going to love her like Christ loves the Church.

  • wangkon936

    Once you get down to the original Hebrew and Greek it’s pretty obvious that the Bible describes plurality of distinct personalities with God and that those distinct personalities are the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. There’s really no way around it. I went through the struggle when I was in my 20’s and the deeper I went into the original languages the Bible was written the more clear it was that the original Church fathers (and not the Arians) got it right the first time.

    • kzarley

      That part about Hebrew, tell that to a Jewish rabbi.

      • wangkon936

        Elohim is clearly plural in the Hebrew, but the context is always singular. Hebrew scholars don’t quite know what to make if it…

        • Brigadon

          it’s much like saying ‘the priesthood’ singular, when speaking of a very diverse group of people. Or ‘the government’.

        • kzarley

          “Hebrew scholars don’t quite know what to make of it.” I don’t think so, but that there is a consensus that it refers to God’s majesty, thus calling it “a plural of majesty.” That does not indicate a plurality of persons. And as you indicate, it consistently is accompanied by adjectives and pronouns in the singular, which do indicate that God is a single person.

          • wangkon936

            Yeah, yeah, yeah. That’s called “Royal Majesty.” The English Kings/Queens did that all the time… “We are not amused!” However, that concept didn’t really come about until the 18th century.