Complementarians see women and ‘gag’

Last week we discussed a vicious, hateful diatribe by Gospel Coalition blogger Thabiti Anyabwile, who argued that the best way to defend his idea of morality was by nurturing disgust for and toward gay men and lesbians. (See “50 Shades of the Gospel Coalition” and “The theology of assholes.”)

A couple of terrific posts this week — neither directly related to Anyabwile’s rant — can help us to understand why Anyabwile and his fellow “Gospel Coalition” complementarians thought posting his nasty argument was worth doing.

The first is from Kendra Weddle Irons, who blogs at Ain’t I a Woman? In a post titled “On Submission,” Irons discusses the household codes of 21st century anti-feminists, which are derived from the household codes of a handful of New Testament passages, which are a response to the household codes of the first century.

It’s a good discussion of what those passages originally meant and of what they should mean for us today, but the part of Irons’ post I want to highlight comes from the beginning, where she describes what’s at stake, in their view, for the anti-feminist Christians preaching their gospel of anti-feminism:

Any woman who rejects her God-ordained role as a submissive wife diminishes the glory of God because her clear divine calling [as] a wife is to honor and affirm her husband’s leadership and to carry through on his direction. To do any less than this or to doubt this is God’s designed plan is to reject the notion of womanhood and also to disobey not only to her husband but, by extension, God.

Gender differences and roles are not peripheral aspects of faithful living but are instead essential in the life of a good Christian because without a wife duly submitting to her husband the sacrificial love of Christ for the church is not appropriately conveyed. It is only through the perfect model of a Christian marriage that God’s honor is reflected and Jesus’ sacrifice is clearly understood.

You see, this is critical stuff. Most likely the continuation of Christianity as we know depends almost entirely on how well women submit to their men and given the devil’s successful campaign against biblical womanhood waged through the secular feminist movement, all truly Christian women need to return to their own Edens (homes) eager to repair the damaging work Eve started.

That’s not an overstatement. It’s an accurate and fair summary of “the argument put forward by Nancy Leigh DeMoss and Mary Kassian in their True Womanhood conferences and materials and of John Piper of Desiring God, not to mention a host of others ranging from Mark Driscoll to those associated with Focus on the Family and Vision Forum.”

For these folks, men’s authority over women and women’s submission to that authority is a central, essential keystone to their whole understanding of Christianity. Take it away and everything falls apart.

It’s very much the same view as the one we discussed earlier regarding Tim Keller’s litmus test of condemning homosexuality. Change that, Keller said, and you require these Christians to “Completely disassemble their whole approach to authority. You are basically going to have to ask them to completely kick their entire faith out the door.” They regard “complementarianism” — the anti-feminist reassertion of “traditional” gender roles — as an essential component of their faith. (“Essential” is their word — see this Wartburg Watch post on “The Gospel Coalition’s Complementarian Conundrum.”)

Given that, people like Keller, Piper, Anyabwile and the rest of their colleagues at the Gospel Coalition cannot allow themselves to be any less extreme than the fringe-y whackjob Bruce Garrett discusses in the second post I want to highlight. Garrett responds to comments from some guy named David Usher of the anti-gay AA religious-right affiliate Council for Marriage Policy.

It would be overly generous to describe Usher’s argument as a “slippery slope” reasoning — his prediction of feminist calamity is far more paranoid than even that. Marriage equality, Usher says, will lead inexorably to the enslavement of men:

Usher’s dystopian screed warned that the Supreme Court will create multiple classes of marriage. In a section called “Class 1: Mother-Mother marriages,” he predicted that “[w]hen two women marry, it is a three-way contract among two women and the government. Most women will bear children by men outside the marriage – often by pretending they are using birth control when they are not.”

… Gay men, he said, will have the worst time of it under legalized same sex marriage because “[i]n most cases, these men will become un-consenting ‘fathers’ by reproductive entrapment,” although how the devious Class-1 lesbians will accomplish this is left to the reader’s imagination.

After having some fun at the expense of Usher’s notion that gay men will somehow be lured into unwitting sex with women, Garrett cuts to the heart of the matter. David Usher hates women:

Usher might well be a closet case but I suspect he’s a straight male supremacist who really hates how a pretty girl can make him all hot and bothered. The homophobia of men like that is really misogyny; gay males draw his contempt for making themselves into woman. That his libido recoils at the thought of having sex with another man makes him feel justified in that contempt.  But really, that contempt, or fear, or loathing, or all of it mixed together, is directed at women.

Usher writes:

Progressive terminology morphed from “gay marriage” to “same-sex marriage” over the past five years because the feminist power-agenda is not attached to orientation. The feminist goal has always been to create an institution where any two women can marry each other, have children out of wedlock, and force individuals who cannot be part of the marriage to support it economically, with government as a statutory guarantor.

Look at that — really look at it.  This isn’t about lesbians — it’s not about homosexuality — it’s about women.

And that, ultimately, is also true of Thabiti Anyabwile’s contemptuous disgust for, and horrified fascination with, the mechanics of gay sex.

Look at it. Really look at it. It’s not about homosexuality. It’s about women.

Anyabwile is disgusted by women. He hates them.

– – – – – – – – – – – –

A few more links to other good posts reacting to Anyabwile’s swirling miasma of homophobic misogyny and misogynist homophobia:

 

 

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  • MikeJ

    It seems like the he-man woman haters club would leave women tow options: submit to men or, as Paul urged be celibate. Lysistrata may have to be called in to the battle of the sexes (which decent people don’t see as a battle to begin with.)

    Although I wonder if some of the hatred is in reaction to the fact that the universe of women who want to have sex with a person who demands submission is a subset of all women. If fewer women will have sex with you, women that don’t want to be dominated must be evil.

  • Samantha C.

    I…….I love the implicit assumption that women married to women will have all the kids by “pretending to use birth control” and sleeping with men.

    The point of gay marriage……you’ve missed it.

  • http://kingdomofsharks.wordpress.com/ D Johnston

    Read the article. Usher isn’t directing his conspiracy theory at gay women, but at women period. He sees a world in which sinister cabals of women will have fake marriages, leeching off the government, robbing men of their money and sperm, and then forcing the poor souls to serve as indentured servants in their femme-harems.

    Ugly up the grammar a bit and add some cracks about “fat chicks”, and it would look like something from the Spearhead.

  • http://www.nicolejleboeuf.com/index.php Nicole J. LeBoeuf-Little

    I think Usher doesn’t actually believe in lesbians. Scratch that – he doesn’t believe in female sexuality at all. The idea that a woman can be sexually attracted to anyone seems beyond him. What he seems to believe in is that women are all biologically driven to have babies, but not that women want to share their lives – sexually, romantically, intimately – with anyone.

    So in his logical framework the only reason he can see for two women marrying is this scary new political structure in which women rear the babies and the government, funded by men, carries the cost.

  • banancat

    That actually comes close to FLDS rationalization for polygyny. They think women don’t care at all about men, but just want babies and special friendship with other women to raise their babies together in blissful innocence while a big strong man provides money and sperm for them to live out their idyllic farm lives.

  • Carstonio

    No accident. In every debate I’ve encountered about polygamy, opponents essentially endorse the attitudes of the societies that have polygyny as the norm. They pay lip service to the control and brutalization of the wives, focusing instead on the sad state of beta males allegedly turning to crime because they can’t get laid. They seem to be really arguing for every man being issued a wife as an entitlement like Social Security.

  • http://kingdomofsharks.wordpress.com/ D Johnston

    Oh no, he believes in female sexuality – otherwise his dystopic vision wouldn’t involve the “bi-maternal” couples keeping little harems. No, what he denies is any romantic inclination among women. In his worldview, women want only money, babies and sex, in more or less that order. Check out his weird comments on “redlining” – he honestly believes that so many straight women would abandon their husbands and boyfriends that it would write men out of the marriage equation altogether.

  • Panda Rosa

    I’ll admit, watch too much Maury/Povich even Dr.Phil and it can seem like that. Sometimes I wonder how hetero couples can stay together at all.

  • Baby_Raptor

    Wouldn’t sex have to be before babies, since that’s how babies are made?

    Or does this weirdo think that we’d go around stealing other womens’ babies given half the opportunity?

  • John Alexander Harman

    Well, if all the men he knows with wives and girlfriends are as vilely misogynistic as he is, he might just have a point as far as the women in his social orbit are concerned.

  • John Alexander Harman

    My reading was that he thinks the women will use the strong arm of government to extract child-support payments from the men; paranoia about child-support is an extremely popular trope among Men’s Rights Assclowns, who have a good deal of ideological overlap with complementarians.

  • http://blog.trenchcoatsoft.com Ross

    The idea that “If we let two women get married, normal straight woman, who as we all know do not actually enjoy sex, will simply enter into marriages of convenience to platonic friends, leaving straight men unable to get wives, because come on, we all know no woman would ever actually want to be with a man if it weren’t for the fact that we’ve designed our society such that there is significant cost for a woman opting not to pick the least objectionable man she can find and ensnaring him in marriage” is, sadly, not an uncommon one.

    It was basically my mom’s position about ten years ago (She seems to have given up on being curmudgeonly about same-sex marriage and has gone on to obsessing over how any kind of decent treatment of trans folk will lead to men in drag spying on women in bathrooms.)

  • AnonaMiss

    So… your mom is ace?

  • Seraph4377

    The implications of your story make me feel sorry for your mother.

  • Cythraul

    Because the pilot of “The L Word” was actually a well-researched sociological documentary! Duh.

    (/sarcasm)

  • BaseDeltaZero

    I think there may be something ‘interesting’ here, and by interesting I mean terrifying. Like Samantha C said, Usher makes the assumption that gay women will, naturally, want to have children by sleeping with men (gay men, at that, because ??)… which, well, what? Sure, some lesbians want children. But it doesn’t, fundamentally, make sense. Why? Because, and I’m guessing here a bit… he cannot conceive of homosexuality as a concept. In his mind, the only reason a woman would claim to be attracted to women – or anyone, for that matter – is to win the support of a man by having babies.

    Note that in this, he’s assuming that a lesbian couple can *only* exist via the entrapment of men. He innately presumes that women only have value in reproduction, even in his ‘feminist’ dystopia…

  • Susan Paxton

    Apparently he’s never heard of the good old turkey baster.

  • banancat

    Or women in general who don’t want children.

  • Jenny Islander

    Or lesbian adoptive moms.

  • Sue White

    Or lesbians with kids from a previous relationship.

  • Seraph4377

    No, no, he’s counting on those – he’s assuming that the “previous relationship” was a sham that existed purely for the purpose of having babies and entrapping a man into child support payments.

  • Sue White

    He could say the same thing about single mothers… never mind, he probably does.

  • http://anonsam.wordpress.com/ AnonymousSam

    Or the possibility in the near future that women will be able to have skin cells transformed into sperm, so that two women can conceive together without any involvement of a man whatsoever.

    In fact, I think that idea might terrify him because it would mean there would be no need for men at all in this dystopian future. Men, now considered worthless to the outside world, would be forced to be stay-at-home fathers, cooking and cleaning and bearing children…!

  • http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

    You know, back when I was a teenager I used to fantasize being the biologist that figured out how to turn eggs into sperm or sperm into eggs so two men or two women could have a baby without the need for a sperm-surrogate or an egg-surrogate.

    I probably would have given all of those folks a collective heart attack had I stated such an ambition back then. X-D

  • bekabot

    For these folks, men’s authority over women and women’s submission to that authority is a central, essential keystone to their whole understanding of Christianity. Take it away and everything falls apart.

    It’s very much the same view as the one we discussed earlier regarding Tim Keller’s litmus test of condemning homosexuality. Change that, Keller said, and you require these Christians to ‘Completely disassemble their whole approach to authority. You are basically going to have to ask them to completely kick their entire faith out the door.’

    Just goes to show ya: the thing to never do is to make the coolness of your club depend on the attitude of the persons you exclude from it. You have a chance of swaying those to whom you can provide some incentive for doing your bidding. The rest, you’re going to have to write off. That’s one of the faulty aspects of the approach this contingent adopts. They want be able to write off LGBT folks and women but at the same time they want to claim the (unquestioning) loyalty of both groups. However, that isn’t the way it operates: even the humblest people will claim some return on or for their devotion. Trying to get them to do otherwise is like trying to get people to work for free. (By which I don’t mean “it’s like trying to get people to work for reasons other than money”, I mean “it’s like trying to get people to work totally gratis“.) That never procures the planned effect. None of this is rocket science; even junior high school kids know it; full-grown theologians ought to.

    Never mind the Holy Writ about the stone which the builders rejected being the head of the corner. This crowd collectively doesn’t believe that and (IMO) hasn’t done so for quite some time, if ever. They need to step up and act on the basis of what they do believe, which is: “it’s all fine and dandy to illustrate the lessons with these decorated book-marks…but when it comes down to real he-hustling, getting out and drumming up customers — or members, I mean, why, you got to make it worth a fellow’s while.” Let them adhere to that set of precepts and they will do fine.

  • Turcano

    It would be overly generous to describe Usher’s argument as a “slippery slope” reasoning — his prediction of feminist calamity is far more paranoid than even that.

    I believe the technical term is parade of horribles.

  • lawrence090469

    All fundie theology seems to be built on the mirror opposite principle of graceful degradation. Any failure point initiates self destruct.

  • Lunch Meat

    Yes, all the desire for equal pay, education, birth control and economic opportunity has been a giant xanatos gambit for us to put into action our cunning plan of having all the responsibility for kids and being supported by men! Congratulations, you figured us out. The only way to stop us now would be for you to ensure we all have the opportunity to work so that none of us have an excuse to stay home. In fact, if you make it socially acceptable for men to be the primary caregivers of children, then we won’t be able to be in charge of all the kids. That’s definitely not want we want. Don’t do that. Please, oh please don’t do that.

  • http://www.nicolejleboeuf.com/index.php Nicole J. LeBoeuf-Little

    Briar patches come to mind. O, please, whatever you do, do not throw me in there!

  • Rakka

    Please accept this shiny new internet and box of chocolates!

  • http://www.nicolejleboeuf.com/index.php Nicole J. LeBoeuf-Little

    OM NOM NOM

  • mcc

    “and given the devil’s successful campaign against biblical womanhood waged through the secular feminist movement,”

    Wait

    Which campaign is this?

    Does the devil need volunteers? I have a lot of phonebanking experience

    I notice Ain’t post and its comments go on a diversion concerning the phrase “drag of normalcy”. That is a *FANTASTIC* phrase. Unfortunately they are not using the word “drag” in the sense my brain immediately jumped to

  • http://www.nicolejleboeuf.com/index.php Nicole J. LeBoeuf-Little

    Does the devil need volunteers? I have a lot of phonebanking experience

    I lol’d.

  • bekabot

    …the phrase ‘drag of normalcy’. That is a *FANTASTIC* phrase. Unfortunately they are not using the word ‘drag’ in the sense my brain immediately jumped to…

    It’s part of the Parade of Horribles…it’s either horribleness in Normal Drag or normality disguised in Horrible Habiliments, take your pick.

  • Baby_Raptor

    It kind of amazes me that they turn “Most women don’t want to live their lives by our abusive views” into “SATAN IS TRYING TO DESTROY US!”

    Equating people who don’t share your views with an ultimate evil simply because they don’t share your views (and them not sharing your views hurts nothing) is whack. Like, “Cool story bro, now how about you go with these nice men in white lab coats?” whack.

  • Matri

    Demonizing 101. They covered this in Chapter 1.

  • http://www.aeryllou.tumblr.com/ Aeryl

    Over at Libby Annes’ there’s been discussion over the fact that, for complementarian’s, a woman’s “natural” place is to serve a man, but yet somehow, WE MUST BE INSTRUCTED, often, on how to do such “natural” things.

    The answer is always SIN! That because women sinned, we are divorced from our God-intended natures. So disagreeing with them, is continuing our Devil driven rebellion against God’s intentions.

  • Baby_Raptor

    If god’s glory can be diminished by people refusing to live out a given interpretation of a few bible verses, then glory diminishing is humanity’s special talent. Get us a species-wide cutie mark.

    If god really did half the stuff the bible claims he did (focusing on the good stuff for the sake of this paragraph) then his glory is in his accomplishments. It has nothing to do with whether or not women allow themselves to be treated as floor mats.

  • Meruror

    And now I’m trying to imagine what a “glory diminishing” cutie mark would look like. A puff of logic perhaps, but how to depict that in way that doesn’t just look like a bit of smoke?

  • Baby_Raptor

    Do something akin to the Darwin fish eating the Jesus fish, but with Logic and Glory, maybe?

  • Lurker
  • auroramere

    They’re trying to make women feel guilty because we’re injuring the Eternal, blessed be he? The Omnipotent is helpless?

  • Baby_Raptor

    They claim that a lot, actually. I mean, god apparently cannot be present in school buildings now that teachers can’t force kids to pray, nevermind that kids can still pray of their own volition, and then there’s that “god resides in every Christian” thing.

    God can’t work in peoples’ lives unless they ask him to…Let’s check with Saul about that one.

    God can’t affect the world unless his followers take over the government and make everyone follow his rules. Nevermind that he supposedly created the world, and the bible says that he sets up governments according to his will.

    They really don’t think that god can do much without a tiny human’s help.

  • banancat

    Also, within the Quiverfull movement it is believed that God managed to impregnate a virgin against her will, and yet he is completely helpless when it comes to a condom or pills or even the rhythm method.

  • BaseDeltaZero

    impregnate a virgin against her will

    Uh, no? I mean, I can totally see the Quiverfullers thinking that, because they are terrible, but… I’m pretty sure that’s not actually how it went.

  • http://algol.wordpress.com/ SororAyin

    “[T]o impregnate a virgin against her will….”
    WTF did I just read. As a woman and as a former Catholic, words completely fail me here.

  • http://anonsam.wordpress.com/ AnonymousSam

    Can it be proven that Mary was able to give meaningful consent?

  • Lori

    Proven? Obviously not. I think it’s implied though. If she hadn’t been willing to be Jesus’ mother she would have been unfit sort of by definition. Part of what made her the chosen one was that she was so good and so obedient that she was willing to take on the job.

    Luke 1:38

    And Mary said, “Behold, I am the handmaid of the Lord; let it be to me according to your word.” And the angel departed from her.

  • http://anonsam.wordpress.com/ AnonymousSam

    Or… she might not have wanted to be completely eradicated, like the long list of everyone else who pissed off God in the past, so “complete obedience” and “having any desire to not be turned into a pillar of salt, immolated, beset by plagues or just struck dead of mysterious causes” could have a large amount of overlap. And much of this being written by men to empower men because men are awesome would leave me wondering if even one word written on Mary’s behalf could be trusted.

  • Lori

    God the all-knowing could read her mind so presumably faking it to avoid punishment would not have been effective.

    There is no indication that God punished all the other Jewish virgins for not measuring up.

  • http://anonsam.wordpress.com/ AnonymousSam

    God as omniscient seems like a later concept and not necessarily supported by all scripture. Adam and Eve were able to hide from him in Genesis 3, which seems difficult to do from an all-knowing deity; and Moses is also forced to correct God when God makes a mistake in Exodus 19.

  • Lori

    Eh, I suspect that any non-corporal being powerful enough to impregnate a virgin with his physical offspring could spot a faker, even without actual mind reading abilities. There’s enough obviously appalling shit in the Bible that I don’t see the point in stretching to create more.

  • http://anonsam.wordpress.com/ AnonymousSam

    You have a point, but given how much rape happens throughout the Bible, I just don’t find it that unlikely if it happened to be here as well, sadly. Wish for the best, be open to interpreting the worst, I guess?

  • Lori

    Also, I never thought that God actually had to look for Adam & Eve. They tried to hide because they didn’t get that he was all-knowing. He sort of played along because he wanted to force them to admit out loud why they were hiding.

    I also don’t recall Exodus 19 having anything to do with God making a mistake. Isn’t that where he offers to come down Mt Sinai in a cloud and speak to the people so they’ll stop giving Moses shit?

  • http://anonsam.wordpress.com/ AnonymousSam

    Near the end, Exodus 19 has a part where God issues a warning against coming near the mountain, the penalty for which is death (of course). He says that when priests climb the mountain, they must consecrate themselves or God will destroy them. Moses politely points out, “You yourself told us that no one can approach the mountain, including the priests.” So then God says “The priests must not approach the mountain,” completely the opposite of what he just said.

  • Lori

    I don’t think so.

    God says that everyone, including the priests, must consecrate themselves to come near the mountain for His cloud show, but that no one can actually touch the mountain or they’ll die.

    God reiterates the rule and Moses responds by basically saying, “Yeah, they got it the first time. You should put up some kind of barrier so they can’t get too close.”

    God doesn’t seem to go for that, but he does say that Aaron can join Moses on the mountain, so Moses goes down and tells everyone again not to touch the mountain.

  • http://anonsam.wordpress.com/ AnonymousSam

    It doesn’t explicitly say they would climb the mountain, but it does say the priests “approach” God (or “come near to” him), which sounds like physical proximity to me, like they were originally intended to ascend the mountain with Moses…

  • Lori

    Maybe, but I don’t think so. I think the approaching was coming to the base of the mountain and everyone was supposed to do that, not just the priests. The gist seemed to be that they should get as close as they could without actually being on the mountain. Because arbitrary lines are sort of God’s thing.

  • http://blog.trenchcoatsoft.com Ross

    Honestly, it seems like you’ve framed the question so as to make it logically impossible to get any answer other than the one you started out assuming.

  • http://anonsam.wordpress.com/ AnonymousSam

    Well, it’s a moot point when I don’t believe in the immaculate conception in the first place (I think the theory that it was a misinterpretation of almah, which can mean ‘virgin’ or can simply mean ‘young woman’ is probably the case), but given the social position of women in the Bible, yes, it doesn’t strike me as at all likely that Mary’s consent would be asked or would have meant anything in the slightest.

  • Emcee, cubed

    I usually hate being picky, but this is one of those things I actually know. I think you mean you don;t believe in the virgin birth. Immaculate Conception has to do with Mary’s birth, and the idea that she was born without Original Sin, so as to be fit to carry the Christ child. (I think I have that right.) Now, you can certainly still not believe in the Immaculate Conception, but it would rather be a non sequitur based on what you were discussing.

  • http://anonsam.wordpress.com/ AnonymousSam

    *Facepalm* You are correct.

  • banancat

    I don’t remember any part of the story where God asked Mary. Lack of consent isn’t only about an explicit “No”. I’m pretty sure Mary’s opinion of the whole matter was never even considered enough for her to even try to refuse. Honestly though, there are plenty of more offensive things in the Bible. Even people like Fred who are very devoted to Christianity can admit that some parts are problematic.

  • http://algol.wordpress.com/ SororAyin

    I was speaking of the Catholic understanding of Mary. Remember, ‘sola scriptura’ is a Protestant thing. Sacred tradition plays as much a role in Catholicism as the Bible does. And in Catholic tradition, Mary’s willing consent–her fiat– is given a lot of emphasis.

  • Carstonio

    What I get from Usher and Anyabwile is not just hatred of women but also fear of men becoming irrelevant. Usher doesn’t say this explicitly, but he appears to believe the old myth that women trick men into raising children sired by other men.

    With due deference to the Kinsey scale, I have a tough time imagining that many gay men would find a woman arousing enough to be able to impregnate her. What would she have to do, offer to bring in her brother like on Game of Thrones?

  • http://www.aeryllou.tumblr.com/ Aeryl

    “He wanted to do….things. Things that would not give me a baby”

    -Best improviser EVER, Margaery Tyrell.

  • Carstonio

    The idea that one’s role or place in society should be determined by one’s genitalia doesn’t fit any rational concept of justice. Perhaps Anyabwile and Usher reject justice entirely.

  • http://www.fordswords.net/ Ford1968

    Aaarrrrrggggghhhh!!!!
    I know this adds nothing to the conversation. But it makes me feel better.

    Mr. Anyabwile responded to me that his moral certitude was not graceless and hurtful, but necessary if we are going to call *anything* good and right. It must be nice to know with absolute certainty the heart of God Himself.

    BTW, did I say: Aaarrrrrggggghhh!!! ?

  • Baby_Raptor

    My response to that would probably have been several pages long. And none of it would have been polite. Not only is there no polite way to respond to it, someone with that kind of attitude doesn’t *deserve* the decency they refuse to give to anyone else.

  • Lana

    The fact that he wrote for the gospel coalition already had me under suspicion

  • Joseph

    “Gender differences and roles are not peripheral aspects of faithful living but are instead essential in the life of a good Christian because without a wife duly submitting to her husband the sacrificial love of Christ for the church is not appropriately conveyed. It is only through the perfect model of a Christian marriage that God’s honor is reflected and Jesus’ sacrifice is clearly understood.”

    I’ll uh…I’ll be sure to let the likes of Saints Anthony, Benedict, and Bernard of Clairvaux know that, who as far as I can tell did not engage in said model, perfect or otherwise.

  • Ivkra

    From what I recall, hard-right protestants like Southern Baptists, etc, tend to believe that 1) the idea of “saints” in and of itself is sinful, a form of idolatry, 2) it is unnatural and wrong that those who wish to minister/preach must abstain from marriage, and 3) with regards to 2, pastors must be married (and have an orderly/godly family).

    So some of those folks would actually say outright that yes, those saints were neither saints nor holy or good, and some would say they were not, in fact, even Christians.

  • Joseph

    I’m pretty certain that even hardcore evangelical Protestants are down with St. Anthony. I mean, he was highly individualistic and existed in a time before the Catholics got properly *Catholic*. You may be right about Benedict and Bernard, though. They founded monastic orders, and that is certainly not kosher, for a very specific definition of “kosher.” This is the point at which we ignore that Marin Luther was an Augustinian monk.

  • Inquisitive Raven

    Assuming that the person you’re talking to is at all informed, zie can point out that Luther left the order and got married.

  • Carstonio

    I’ve always found it strange that a sex-can-lead-to-dancing ideology wouldn’t also advocate celibacy for its clergy.

  • P J Evans

    Not to mention a dancing-leads-to-sin church, which is typical of the more fundamentalist churches..

  • chgo_liz

    “At my party, there will be no necking on the dancing floor;
    Booooo!
    And no dancing on the necking floor;
    Yayyyyyyy!
    Salvation Army, Salvation Army, put a nickel in the drum….”

  • themunck

    Which is why Jesus himself never married…wait….

  • LoneWolf343

    He seems to hate children too. He seems to operating under the assumption that gay men won’t want children of their own. You know, because they’re men, and men don’t really want kids. Kids are accidents.

  • Carstonio

    I think it’s more a belief that all women desperately crave motherhood, like their wombs pulsate when they’re around babies. That seems to be one major assumption behind the claim that same-sex marriage will deprive children of fathers.

  • Lunch Meat

    I think it’s more a belief that all women desperately crave motherhood, like their wombs pulsate when they’re around babies.

    So that’s what that feeling is!

  • OriginalExtraCrispy

    To think, all this time I thought it was menstrual cramps.

  • Lori

    It is.

  • http://anonsam.wordpress.com/ AnonymousSam

    This actually resembles the flip side of the classic argument that the only thing a woman has to hold a man to herself is virginity, children and marriage — without them, the man would have no reason to support a woman and she would be worthless. Now we see that the only thing holding women to men are the rules of marriage and child support.

    Added together, there are some people with very, very dismal beliefs about humanity, and they preach these beliefs as if they were completely, expected human behavior in the absence of restraint. The same sort of people also seem to be the ones who say things like “If God were not objectively moral, then there would be no morality and what would people from killing each other and going on sinful rampages?” … which always seems to imply, “Like I wish I could!”

  • bekabot

    This actually resembles the flip side of the classic argument that the only thing a woman has to hold a man to herself is virginity, children and marriage — without them, the man would have no reason to support a woman and she would be worthless.“You’re right. According to this understanding of the world, women all start out worthless. If a man proposes to pay for a woman, she’s worth what he’s willing to shell out but not more. If no man proposes to pay for the woman, she stays worthless. Marriage is not the only form of male payment but in this society it’s still the pre-eminent type. Women are understandably desperate not to be worthless and so they will go to any length to get a man to pay for them. That’s why, according to this estimation of the way things work, every woman is gasping with frenzy after the contents of every man’s wallet. It’s also why men retain the power of ultimate judgement as to women’s worth: a man can pay for a woman or he can choose not to pay and either way, his is the last word.It’s not a vision of the way things are which is restricted to evangelical Christianity, alas.

  • Sue White

    …without a wife duly submitting to her husband the sacrificial love of Christ for the church is not appropriately conveyed.

    *boggle* Really? I must have missed that part of the gospel.

  • Lunch Meat

    They’ve even found a way to turn metaphors into commandments. I’m almost impressed. What’s next? “Without you purposefully losing sheep and then abandoning the rest of them to chase after the one you lost, the desire of Christ to save everyone is not appropriately conveyed”?

    (I was going to use the parable of the sower as an example, but I couldn’t make “wasting your seed by scattering it indiscriminately” not sound dirty.)

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    Maybe if you get to Heaven what Moses thought about the “metaphor” of speaking to the rock the second type instead of striking it. Do you think that their is a reason that God made sure to tell us He hates divorce? Maybe that it is an important symbol of how Jesus Christ relates with His Bride? If anyone looks at many of the marriages “christians” are involved in I think that they would RUN from Jesus. How is that for a “metaphor”?

  • Lori

    Dang, is there anything more arrogant than a man who has the gall to equate himself to Christ this way?

  • John Grotenhuis

    Probably, but any more arrogant than this and it tips into campy silliness. Any worse and I’m going to start typing his posts with the word “MONGREL(s)” at the end of every time he addresses someone.

  • John Grotenhuis

    This, of course, supposes that every valid Christian hermeneutic regards the Bible as infallible and the product of direct divine revelation, not flawed human dictations of the same.

    Also if Christ’s relationship with His Bride is so damned important, you’d think the emphasis would be on the thing itself, not on symbols and sacraments relating to it. They didn’t crucify a loaf of bread and a bottle of Merlot.

  • VMink

    Of *course* they must occasionally lose sheep. It’s right there in the Bible. They are comfortable with losing sheep, and decry our efforts to not lose sheep. You can kill people with sheep, you know which is why we ask people not to. They think we want all sheep accounted for. They think we want SHEEP CONTROL. Today we come for their sheep, tomorrow we come for their Bibles. The Progressive Atheist Socialist Sheep Empire* will know no bounds!

    Baaaaaaaaah.

    * – Acronymic pun intended.

  • frazer

    And poor Paul, wasting all that time writing letters about the sacrificial love of Christ for the church when he just should have been getting hitched. Never mind that “I wish you all were as I am [single]” stuff.

  • rizzo

    Well duh that’s been the plan for like 150 years now. First, get the vote. Next, get jobs and careers, then birth control. Finally, marry each other, trick men into getting us pregnant and then live on welfare. Yep, that’s the ticket to…er…something?

  • http://www.aeryllou.tumblr.com/ Aeryl

    MISANDRIST MATRIARCHY!!!!!!!

  • Baby_Raptor

    It’s a ticket to something, but not happiness or security. You know, the things that people actually want.

  • LL

    Yeah, hatred of gay people and hatred of women pretty much go hand in hand. Well, OK, not hand in hand, because that would be an abomination unto God, they don’t hold hands like homosexuals, they’re just really good friends. But not in a gay way.

  • Guest

    Once upon a time, long, long ago, if a woman seduced a man and got pregnant, her father would show up with his shotgun and force them to get married. Nowadays, if a woman seduces a man and gets pregnant, he will have to pay child support. Usher seems to fear that if we legalize SSM and a woman seduces a man and gets pregnant — he will have to pay child support. Why is this so much worse than a shotgun marriage (or what we have now, for that matter).

  • mcc

    More to the point why is a father having to pay child support apparently inherently worse than a mother (legally; child endangerment is a thing) having to pay to support a child to adulthood?

    I mean if we have a system where the parent of one particular gender is always automatically wholly financially responsible for the wellbeing of the child that sounds non-ideal (though I don’t believe we have such a system)…

    But one way or another, once the baby exists, SOMEBODY has to pay for it, if the father doesn’t the mother has to

  • auroramere

    What I want to know is why men can’t take the advice women have been given for as long as I can remember. Don’t have sex with people who might not have your best interests at heart. If you don’t know someone well enough to be sure she won’t lie about birth control, her age, or whether the sex you had was consensual, *don’t have sex with her*. Don’t even be alone with her. See how simple?

    Of course, this doesn’t always work. Manipulators, abusers, and serial killers can be patient, persuasive, and convincing actors. But if men just renounced the principle that nothing must get in the way of an opportunity for sex, they could avoid a lot of the situations MRA types complain about.

  • Baby_Raptor

    We can’t expect men to think with their brains, Aurora. That’s just silly! Men think with their peni!

  • mcc

    “If you don’t know someone well enough to be sure she won’t lie about birth control, her age, or whether the sex you had was consensual, *don’t have sex with her*. Don’t even be alone with her. See how simple?”

    Consistently, the thing that most terrifies privileged people turns out to be having to live and feel the way non-privileged people do for even a moment.

    If you are XX-chromosomal and you have sex with an XY-chromosomal person, sex is a risk. You could be stuck with a sentient living thing for the rest of its life, have to rearrange your entire life to feed, clothe, care for it. Biology simply forces this.

    If you are female and considering getting close with a man, sex is a risk. He might go further than you want. He might not listen to “no” or “wait” or “later”. Maybe some women don’t worry about this, maybe some men don’t need to be worried about, doesn’t matter. In our culture this is a thing that being female means worrying about.

    You *have* to manage these risks. You have to worry about them, plan for them, act to prevent them,

    A privilege of being male is that you don’t have to think about these risks. Maybe you do think about them! You’re not necessarily being forced to.

    What seems to terrify what I suppose we’re now calling “MRA”s is that law will create a situation where these *are* things they have to worry about. They are terrified of “pregnancy is a risk of sex, plan for it” being a situation men must share instead of being exclusively a risk borne by women. They are terrified of “consent violations are a risk in sex, make sure it doesn’t happen” being a situation men must share rather than being something women are exclusively expected to ensure prevented. Most of these people probably don’t actually need to worry about these situations. Preventing a pregnancy is not *that* hard. Preventing rape is not hard either. Most of the people upset about this stuff probably have never gotten anyone pregnant, or (hopefully) raped anyone. That’s not the point. This isn’t actually about pregnancy or rape. It is about threatened privilege. They have the special privilege of Not Having To Think About This and they are horrified to feel this privilege taken away.

  • FearlessSon

    Or as my girlfriend likes to put it, “If you don’t trust it, don’t stick your dick in it.”

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    In feminist “rape culture” circles this would be known as “victim blaming”. But you are fundamentally right.

  • Lori

    You know the buzz words, but you clearly don’t actually know what they mean.

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    Clearly! /snark

    Okay, lets flip this one line.

    Instead of “Don’t even be alone with her.””.

    we say: “Don’t even be alone with him.”

    “See how simple.”

    I can render all types of advice on how women can reduce the risk of rape. If I did what would YOU call that? (Don’t say “victim blaming”)

  • Lori

    The point is that sexist men have no trouble making all kinds of rules for how women should behave and what they have to do to protect themselves from being harmed by predatory men and yet they refuse to have any rules made for them. In the view of MRAs it is natural for women to be hemmed in by rules, many of which are essentially arbitrary, but totally unthinkable for men to be expected to exercise even minimal judgment. In MRA world if a man wants to hit that he must be able to, with no fear of any negative consequences. This is what is known as hypocritical bullshit.

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    “Rules” such as not walking down dark alleys dressed as a hooker after drinking a fifth of tequila? Man, how repressive and hypocritical men are. They should be able to make sure that nothing bad will happen to that woman or they are “sexist”, right? Common sense and the reality that there are evil people in the world is “sexist” too no doubt.

    We should be able to give everyone our Social Security numbers, our doors unlocked at night and leave our keys in the ignition too. Who do we get to blame and browbeat for those “rules”?

  • smrnda

    Yeah, totally, all rapes are committed by strangers in dark alleys on drunk women dressed like hookers. Sober women are *never raped* by *men they know who seem respectable.*

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    Well, let’s start eliminating the ones that are just completely idiotic first mkay? Instead of whining about “taking back the night” and “slut walking”.

    “Men who they know that seem respectable.” Ahahahaha!

  • Lori

    Focusing on your sexist imagination isn’t going to prevent any women from being raped. Of course, preventing women from being raped is clearly not your goal, so I guess that figures.

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    Nope, they are their own problem, they took that into their own hands. How am I supposed to prevent rape, follow women around with a Taser? Wouldn’t that be sexist of me too, restricting her and all?

    Oh, you mean help enacting laws so that anyone she accuses of rape goes straight to the gas chamber? Nah, pass.

  • Lori

    So, rapists aren’t the problem and aren’t responsible for rape. Rape is the fault of rape victims, who are their own problem.

    It’s so good to see how much more moral Christians are than non-believers. The way you demonstrate God’s love and goodness and grace is truly a thing of beauty. If Jesus was here he’d obviously join you in throwing those stones.

  • http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

    Now you’re just being deliberately over the top and absurd.

  • http://blog.trenchcoatsoft.com Ross

    In other words, “First let’s take care of the 1% of rapes I can comfortably blame the victim for. We can deal with the 99% of rapes where blaiming the victim will reveal obviously what a piece of human refuse I am later”

  • chgo_liz

    Except the numbers are closer to 99.99 and 0.01.

  • Lori

    Thank you so much for proving my point.

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    You want women to be “*BIG GIRLS!” (* high pitched squeaky shout) maybe you should also expect them to use good judgment and know how to live in a real world with bad people in it instead of being perpetual victims and whining about having to maintain their very own security.

    Or you can be a card carrying “victim” and try to wrest the vestiges if civilization from teh ebil menz. To wit, it will be a steaming pile of feces at that point.

  • Lori

    Proving. My. Point.

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    You don’t have a point to prove. Women are fully equal and all men are responsible for any one woman’s bad decisions is not a “point”.

  • Lori

    No one but you has suggested that all men are responsible for anything. Women are not raped because of bad decisions they make. Women are raped because of bad decisions that rapists make. Namely, the decision to rape. You fail to understand this because you’re a sexist asshat, not because of anything I have or have not said.

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    Yet I’m somehow supposed to “prevent women from getting raped”?

  • smrnda

    I’ll acknowledge I can’t ask you do control the behavior of anyone except yourself. How about you just place the blame for rape *on rapists and not on their victims?* That would be a big help :-)

  • chgo_liz

    Every time you post one of your little arguments on a public site like this one, you are enabling rapists and potential rapists to think of sexual assault as supported by public opinion. Stop posting this nonsense and you will actually (in a small way) be part of the solution….maybe not helping to prevent rape but at least no longer helping to support rape culture.

  • smrnda

    Most men can be around a drunk and provocatively attired woman without raping her.

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    Yep. Nearly all of them. That doesn’t stop feminists from blaming the rest.

  • smrnda

    So…. women are responsible for getting raped because they don’t take enough precautions around men, but being cautious around men is horrible and misandrist since I’m sending *nice guys* the message that I’m worried they might potentially rape me?

  • http://anonsam.wordpress.com/ AnonymousSam

    I just spent the weekend seeing proof of that a hundred times over (September Crown), and next weekend (Autumn Wars) is going to be more of the same. If anything, conflict and crime are rather infrequent at these events, despite the abundance of alcohol, scanty outfits and opportunity to abuse trust.

  • http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

    They can even manage to keep their hands off her, too. It’s called self-control. A pretty radical concept….

  • http://blog.trenchcoatsoft.com Ross

    No woman decides to get raped. No “bad decision” causes a woman to be raped other than the bad decision of a rapist to commit rape. Rapists aren’t boner-werewolves. Even if your false and debunked claims held any truth, all that would happen if a woman avoided your “bad decisions” is that a different woman would be the victim. Is that your argument? “You can’t stop rape, but you can make sure it happens to someone else?”

  • http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

    Ah yes, the old cry from men suckered into the MRA paradigm: such people seem to believe that civilization rests on the need to have men pursue acceptably male-centric activities while at the same time hampering women at every step of the way by telling and re-telling horror stories of men who were “trapped by pregnancies”, etc.

    You want to have your cake and eat it too. You want to have what you claim women have: the right to fuck anyone you want without having to answer to the consequences, because you can always blame the other person and make it stick due to social conventions.

  • http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

    It is perfectly acceptable to decry the fact that women have to be told such things as “check all your drinks; if you didn’t see it move from the bar to you, even if it’s someone you know”, and still need to invent such rules as a stopgap in our lopsided gender-power society.

  • Lee B.

    I once saw in a discussion about shitty Reddit MRA threads where an MRA had posted a set of recommendations for how to avoid being ‘falsely accused’ of rape, prefacing it with something like, “It’s too bad that it’s come to this.” The most disturbing part is that his suggestions were mostly about how not to be a rapist, things like verifying consent before every step, or not having sex with anyone who’s intoxicated—basic things that any decent person should already be doing.

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    Yeah, because nobody EVER accuses someone of rape without it being so. Sure!

  • Lori

    Your ability to consistently miss the point while making our point is truly amazing.

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    Your persistent solipsism is more amazing.

  • Lori

    You are apparently unclear on what solipsism means.

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    Nope, not in the least.

  • http://anonsam.wordpress.com/ AnonymousSam
  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    Never heard of a false rape allegation I guess.

  • chgo_liz

    1. False reporting rates for sexual assault are lower than any other crime.

    2. Reporting rates are so low that the vast majority of sexual assault is never reported, making the numbers of a few false reports pale in comparison.

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    And you know this how? By consulting your Magic 8-ball?

  • chgo_liz

    For those watching at home, notice the line of attack: no response to the statistics, just a nasty dig suggesting I am incapable of rational thought. Guess GIL realized from my screen name that I’m probably female, so of course my source for factual information would have to be something that everyone, no matter their religious or philosophical beliefs, would agree is ridiculous.

  • http://blog.trenchcoatsoft.com Ross

    GiL actually thinks he is God. (He changed his handle from “I art laughing” to “God is laughing”). He doesn’t give reasons for things. His bible interpretation is right because he says so and nothing else. His views on rape are right because he says so and nothing else. His views on women are right because he says so and nothing else.

    He doesn’t have statistics. He doesn’t have evidence. He doesn’t have logic. He doesn’t have the weight of tradition. He doesn’t have any sane reading of scripture. His argument boils down to “BECAUSE I SAID SO.”

    He thinks he speaks for God.

  • http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

    That actually is kind of surprising. Most of the “LOL DON’T STICK YOUR DICK IN CRAZY” MRA types usually come up with such specious things as “Get a vasectomy and a notarized affidavit of such so you can make the gold-digging bitch run home in tears when she can’t pin a pregnancy on you.”

    Or when it comes to the omgfalserape thing they usually make sure to come up with ways to make the woman look bad rather than owning up to the fact that men need to behave properly around women.

  • Lee B.

    Oh, there was a bit of that crap in there too, of course.

    I would guess that this particular guy thought that the False Rape Accusation has become such a clear and present danger that men might actually need to modify their behavior (oh, the horror) as a desperate last step to avoid it.

  • http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

    So… right thing, wrong reasons? I’ll take what I can get, I guess.

  • FearlessSon

    That actually is kind of surprising. Most of the “LOL DON’T STICK YOUR DICK IN CRAZY” MRA types usually come up with such specious things as “Get a vasectomy and a notarized affidavit of such so you can make the gold-digging bitch run home in tears when she can’t pin a pregnancy on you.”

    Or, you know, get a vasectomy and a notarized affidavit and just be upfront about your sterility. It is what I do. That way any women for whom having a baby is a deal-breaker knows the score from the beginning and we can both avoid relationships which will end in tears for both parties. Why bother with deception when honesty will serve you better?

  • http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

    It’s because MRAs believe the hivemind view of women and assume that every woman treats every encounter with a man as a battle to be won.

    In battles, of course, deception and trickery are accepted tactics, so MRAs believe that women will “trap” them with pregnancy or rape accusations, so they perforce will counter with “whip out the affidavit at the last possible moment”, or “make sure the cops know how easily she gives it up”, etc.

    Oh yes, I totally forgot about the mythology around divorces with MRAs practically reciting it as an article of faith that their wives will “take them for everything they’ve got” and all that.

  • smrnda

    I’d call it the same old shit I’ve been hearing since I was a kid. Every time a man opens his mouth to tell women how to avoid being raped, there’s not one single original remark he can make that women haven’t already heard a million times before. The problem is that most of the advice is often infeasible – “never be out alone at night” – great advice when, thanks to working hours and such you’re kind of stuck being alone at night. “Don’t be alone with a man you can’t trust” – great, how the hell do we figure that out, particularly when along with a lot of the ‘don’t get raped’ advice there’s the implicit message that finding the ‘right sort of guy’ to use for protection is a magic talisman against rape?

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    I don’t give that advice. That’s a serious straw man you’ve constructed. How about not being drunk while alone in public (which is not a good idea for anyone), not taking strange people home with you, not approaching complete strangers while drunk, alone, and dressed provocatively. Those would be a good start, but of course suggesting any of those is completely off limits (according to sensible feminists everywhere).

  • John Grotenhuis

    Hi. My name’s Scarlet. I have two beautiful younger sisters. Are you suggesting that if either of them had a lapse in judgment, walked into a dangerous situation, and got hurt my first response should be to criticize them and not, you know, the bastard who did it?

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    Nope, not in the least. Are you suggesting that giving them advice on how not to end up victims by having said “lapse in judgement” is off limits? That is increasingly the preemptive argument against common sense.

  • John Grotenhuis

    But that isn’t the argument at all. The point of exposing rape culture isn’t to tell people not to take precautions against rape, it’s about making the world safe from rapists. It’s about blaming perpetrators rather than victims, teaching people about informed consent so that fewer men begin to rape, and moving away from a narrative that treats women as ‘bringing things upon themselves’ and exonerating criminals in the process.

  • Lori

    The straw man in this discuss is your drunk woman dressed like a hooker walking down a dark ally at night.

    The reality is that blaming rape on women being drunk or dressed provocatively is garbage.

    The reality is that men are not told from childhood to never go anywhere alone and not to trust anyone and not to walk here or wear that and if they do they deserve to be victimized.

    Again, you a proving the point we’re trying to make.

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    Maybe you could explain the purpose of a “slut walk”. Or maybe you could spare yourself the typing.

  • Lori

    A slut walk is about making the point that clothing doesn’t cause rape. Which is does not. The fact that you can’t grasp this says a great deal more about you than it does about the people who participate in slut walks.

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    Really, how does it make that point? Are you suggesting that unchaste and immodest behavior prevents rape?

  • Lori

    To you and other people as sexist and thick-headed as you? Apparently with great difficulty.

  • smrnda

    The idea that clothing is a factor just gives a rapist the ability to argue that, had his victim been wearing something different, he wouldn’t have done it. Do you have any information that actually suggests clothing is EVER a factor in rape? Are you really sure of that?

  • http://shiftercat.livejournal.com/ ShifterCat

    If scant clothing were a factor in rape, sexual assault rates would quadruple in the summertime. They don’t.

    I also seem to recall reading that when alcohol was involved in a rape, it was actually more likely to be the rapist who’d been drinking, but I can’t find the article at the moment.

  • http://blog.trenchcoatsoft.com Ross

    Are you claiming that unchase and immodest behavior causes rape? Because I can assure you that there is less than zero evidence that it does.

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    “Slane-girl” would suggest otherwise.

  • http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

    http://www.herald.ie/news/slane-girl-tells-gardai-that-she-was-assaulted-29539826.html

    Ok, what does the fact that she seems to have consented to sex at one point have to do with that she may not have consented to a different sex act later?

    Consent is not something that becomes a magic blame-her bullet. It can be withdrawn at any time. In fact, in Canadian case law it is considered to have been automatically withdrawn if a person becomes unconscious, which means the “she was drunk” defence has even thinner ground to stand on than in the past.

  • FearlessSon

    That reminds me, I am sad that I missed the most recent Seattle Slutwalk, due to being out of town at the time.

  • http://anonsam.wordpress.com/ AnonymousSam

    Fearlesssssss, you often strike me as the kind of person who’d enjoy SCA events. Any chance that you attend?

  • FearlessSon

    No, I have never been in any SCA stuff. Too much a perfectionist, and too little time to make all the chain mail I would need.

  • http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

    The fact that men can unselfconsciously say things like “LOL WHAT’S HER PROBLEM IF I LOOKED LIKE THAT I’D LOVE GETTING MY TITS GROPED” and not understand what a basic violation of personal space that is which is nevertheless given some social “permission” due to the paradigm of men who are fundamentally incapable of controlling themselves around hot women–

    I think that says it all.

  • http://anonsam.wordpress.com/ AnonymousSam

    The majority of women I know who have been raped (which is a painfully large number of the women I know period) were raped by people they had known for years, or in the case of several, family members.

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    Feminism is far and away the thing most responsible for “rape culture”. That is my informed opinion.

  • http://anonsam.wordpress.com/ AnonymousSam

    Your informed opinion is of a close inspection of your colon and you are a blatant troll.

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    Whatever. Just because I don’t match the wallpaper in what I didn’t realize was a feminist echo chamber doesn’t make me a “troll”. Bye now.

  • http://blog.trenchcoatsoft.com Ross

    All feminism is is the belief that women are human beings. So the entire world decomposes into “feminists” and “assholes”

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    Yeah, that nearly matches my belief system.

    For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
    (Rom 8:6)

    Want to guess where “human beings” measure on the carnality scale?

  • Lori

    Oh yeah. They could almost be twins. It’s amazing.

  • http://anonsam.wordpress.com/ AnonymousSam

    No, that you take pleasure in being an antichrist makes you a troll. Most people who do so are only sons of clay to be taught repentance. The ones who knowingly side with the oppressors against the oppressed have a special place prepared for them.

    But by all means, disregard this old bird and enjoy it while it lasts.

  • Lori

    Because no women were ever raped before feminism came along, right?

    Truly, your intellect is breath-taking.

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    So is yours. And no woman were raped after it came along right? You can’t even parse a sentence.

  • smrnda

    Feminism is responsible for acknowledging that rape can happen within marriage, which is reflected in an actual change in the law. Agreed that rapes within marriage prove difficult to prosecute in practice, but it at least is a huge shift.

  • Lori

    I can parse it just fine. It’s still stupid. The fact that women continue to be raped doesn’t disprove my point and it most certainly doesn’t lend credence to yours.

  • http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino
  • smrnda

    Women get raped while totally sober by men who they have no reason to mistrust – pastors, friends of your family, nice guys women study with in class. Police officers have raped women while on duty – look it up, you can find a few cases of that. Ever heard of the term ‘social offender?’ People who don’t really *look like criminals* which enables them to get away with crimes and avoid setting off alarms in potential victims?

    If rape is about women having bad judgment, how on earth do rapes happen in Muslim countries with strict modesty rules for clothing and bans on alcohol?

    You’re seriously a walking repository of rape myths.

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    Are these married women? If not, I have a simple solution.

  • Lori

    Are you under the impression that married women are never raped?

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    Do you know anything about “risk management”.

    See in the real world there are risks, and these through proper strategies can be minimized………

  • Lori

    So you know that married women are sometimes rape victims but you don’t care. You only want to talk about the rape victims that you feel justified in blaming.

    You also apparently consider marriage a risk management strategy. How romantic.

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    I don’t blame rape victims. I blame rapists and I blame feminists who have a motivated self interest in women becoming rape victims.

  • smrnda

    Nice straw girl you’ve built there. Feminists, unlike you, base their conclusions on rape on facts and not cultural myths, like rapes have something to do with what you’re wearing.

  • http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

    Felicity Smoak is unimpressed with your bullshit.

    For when a full and proper facepalm is unnecessary, as in your case.

  • http://blog.trenchcoatsoft.com Ross

    There seems to be a problem with your respiration.

  • Lori

    You mean that it continues to occur?

  • Lori

    You seem to be losing track of your own bullshit now. This:

    Nope, they are their own problem, they took that into their own hands.

    is not blaming rapists, it’s blaming victims.

    I blame feminists who have a motivated self interest in women becoming rape victims.

    Do tell. Why do you think feminists have a motivated self interest in women becoming rape victims?

    I can’t wait to hear this.

  • Lori

    Ah man, I hate disqus. That picture is actually a gif and it’s the movement that makes it funny.

    Disqus is such a buzz kill.

  • Lori
  • http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

    Eh, I’m trying to avoid using GIFs because they can be distracting. But popcorn.gif is fun :D

  • Lori

    I try not to over use them, but Gus eating popcorn is classic.

  • smrnda

    I am sure I know more about this than you do, and I know that all the ‘how not to get raped’ advice is useless given actual statistics about rape.

  • John Grotenhuis

    So:

    When I don’t lock my door even once after leaving my car, it’s my fault it was stolen.

    If I make one person mad, it’s my fault if they murder me.

    And if I’m female and I step outside of a little wall of ritual precautions at all, it’s on me that I got raped?

    (To say nothing of the fact that my car can be stolen whether I lock it or not, or the fact that I can be murdered no matter whether someone is mad at me or not).

    I certainly believe in risk management. I’m rather fond of Mr. Mace and his brother, Iron Taser (badum-tish pun). But Risk management isn’t some kind of magical Ritual Against Rape. The world isn’t a game of Magic the Gathering where married women or women with male relatives nearby or wearing conservative clothing or who are sober get “Protection Against Rape”.

    Hell, they don’t even get “Protection Against Idiots”. You’re still talking.

  • smrnda

    Please, let me know your solution for
    1. if they are married and
    2. if they are not.

  • smrnda

    Also, which women? The women raped by on duty cops in the US? Women raped by men they have no reason to mistrust? Women in Muslim countries?

  • smrnda

    (eagerly awaiting a response on these questions….)

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    Why? You know that you are going to hate and dismiss them. Then you’ll label me a misogynistic knuckledragger with a head full of rape myths but I will humor you this last time before I depart this feminist echo-chamber.

  • John Grotenhuis

    Conjecture: Multiple people with the same position on a single issue does not invalidate their arguments.

    Further Conjecture: That an “echo chamber” has formed across gender, sexuality, and religious lines on these issues says a lot about the power of the argument for not being an asshole to women.

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    If not “being an asshole” means shelving the message that they need to be a “living sacrifice holy to the Lord” when it applies to women, then color me brown.

  • John Grotenhuis

    And being colored brown would be bad because…

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    I wasn’t talking about skin color if that is where you were going. When in doubt try reading the context.

  • http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

    You know, usually we say “color me shocked”, “color me confused”, “color me (non-color)” when phraseology like that is employed in that context.

  • Lori

    Don’t interrupt him. He just admitted to being a shit.

  • http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

    People like Art are so literal-minded they don’t understand the very context they claim one should read for. I’m not sure that’s what he was going for when he wanted to be colored brown though, heh.

  • chgo_liz

    I literally lol’ed.

  • smrnda

    What I ask is – how is this call to sacrifice meaningful when depending on a person’s level of privilege, some won’t ever be called to actually sacrifice at all, and others will be forced to all the time? It’s like saying “don’t steal” but you give one group of people control over all the property (by definition they cannot steal then) and the other group gets to sit around and beg or die.

  • smrnda

    You seem to be keen on demanding that other people become living sacrifices, and fairly eager to promote yourself as a paradigm of virtue.

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    Rape on the brain much?

    Clearly not all rapes are preventable but having a trustworthy male family member is a security if the woman want’s to avail herself of their protection. The “social offenders” are also going to lend themselves to social pressures if there is a husband, brother, or father in the nearby picture.

    But that sounds far too much like ebil “patriarchy” to work so I’m sure that is just silly,

  • John Grotenhuis

    So what you’re saying is that women should never walk around unaccompanied if they’re single and that’s an okay world to live in. And as a concerned older brother my goal shouldn’t be to actively fight against a world where my sister can’t live in a student apartment and walk to the grocery store after dark for milk without being in danger.

    Did it hurt when they removed your empathy? Or was it just a dull feeling of confusion?

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    You want to fix the world? We have a recipe. It’s call the “good news”. Exchanging it for feminism is not very empathetic, nor is it being obedient to Christ.

  • John Grotenhuis

    I don’t think you know what that word means.

    …I don’t think you know what words mean.

    (Also where in the Gospels did Christ say to his disciples “I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life, but so help me if you show any concern for women or treat them as anything but subservient to men I will turn my face away and stop inviting you to Sunday dinner”)

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    You missed the exclusionary part there just like Rob Bell does: “no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.” That’s usually where post-modernists rattle apart and start embracing “another Gospel”.

    “Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God. Do ye think that the scripture saith in vain, The spirit that dwelleth in us lusteth to envy? But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble. Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded. Be afflicted, and mourn, and weep: let your laughter be turned to mourning, and your joy to heaviness. Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.”
    (Jas 4:4-10)

    There is no such thing as socializing people into Christ.

  • John Grotenhuis

    So what you’re saying is that in order to believe in the sacrifice of Christ I have to disavow any ideologies that are helpful, beneficial or good. In order to love my neighbor I have to stop practicing tolerance, in order to take up my cross I must ignore everyone else’s, and in order to be humble I must never rebuke the proud?

    Fuck, you have real promise as an apologist.

    For other religions, I mean. As a follower of Christ you… I….

    …how do I put it.

    Please stop, you’re making the rest of us look bad?

    (Not all Christians are like this, not all Christians are like this, I apologize for this guy)

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    You have apologized the message of the Cross completely away. Telling people that are fighting for their “rights” to die to self isn’t going to win you any brownie points though, nope.

    Do you recommend to “Christian” feminists that they obey the Bible and submit to their husbands? Or is that just too hard too?
    You look bad all on your own.

  • Lori

    You think Jesus is going to give you brownie points for blaming women for the behavior of rapists and then claiming He taught you that?

  • smrnda

    Yeah, because it’s wrong for slaves to fight for liberation, because the burden to ‘die to self’ is *exactly equal* both for the slaves and for their master. Totally, a gospel that can change the world is best accomplished by deciding that the status quo is just fine.

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    Let every man abide in the same calling wherein he was called. Art thou called being a servant? care not for it: but if thou mayest be made free, use it rather. For he that is called in the Lord, being a servant, is the Lord’s freeman: likewise also he that is called, being free, is Christ’s servant. Ye are bought with a price; be not ye the servants of men. Brethren, let every man, wherein he is called, therein abide with God.
    (1Co 7:20-24)

  • smrnda

    Wow, a perspective like that would put us right back in the dark ages. We’d have more oppression, more brutality, but somehow things would be better?

    You should read James Cone’s “God of the Oppressed.” His take is that passages like this are exploited to enable some people to be both oppressors and Christians at the same time.

    Let’s also keep in mind that the guy who wrote that was a Roman citizen when that was a pretty privileged position to have.

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    Whatever happened to the Roman Empire anyway???

    The fact that carnal minded men used this to justify their atrocities does not diminish the truth of the peace that resides in this verse. Putting the truth in the mouth of a mass murderer doesn’t make it less true.

  • http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

    What the H E double hockey sticks does the fall of the Roman Empire have to do with the discussion of rape culture and its consequences?

  • Lori

    It fell after Christianity was made the official religion.

  • smrnda

    Lasted for quite a long time, in the end decaying because the law of diminishing returns – new conquests weren’t bringing in enough tribute to make the empire profitable. All said, I’m sure many died in wars and suffered as slaves under the heel of the decaying empire, and the fact that it *eventually fell* doesn’t mean shit to those who suffered under it.

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    If that was all there were it would have been a great tragedy.

    For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day. For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory; While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.
    (2Co 4:16-18)

  • Lori

    You’re just dropping in random scriptures now, aren’t you?

  • John Grotenhuis

    “Jesus Wept”

  • http://anonsam.wordpress.com/ AnonymousSam

    Sadly inaccurate. That should be in present tense, as he will only stop when the tears are wiped from every eye.

  • John Grotenhuis

    Point.

    (Also “My love’s breasts are like twin melons, delicious and sweet…um… goats… uh…” fuck I completely forgot how Song of Solomon goes, that was my next out of context choice. That’s what I get for low-hanging fruit.)

  • Lori

    Uh, huh.

  • http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

    For reference: Song of Solomon (Revised Standard Version)

    [5] Your two breasts are like two fawns,
    twins of a gazelle,
    that feed among the lilies.

    Not quite as impressive-sounding, but I guess he couldn’t get away with the “tracts of land” line. ;-)

  • http://anonsam.wordpress.com/ AnonymousSam

    Oh, if we’re quoting dirty, no love for Ezekiel?

  • http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

    Emissions of asses and the size of donkeys, indeed.

  • smrnda

    Because fluffy rhetoric is what you give someone when they’re suffering. Isn’t there some verse that says faith without works is useless? That if you see someone suffering and you offer religious motivational speaking instead of what they need it’s pure BS?

  • http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

    But works is icky and annoying and bleh. It’s so much easier to just have faith and bask in the feeling of how awesome you think God has made you.

  • smrnda

    Or pretend that your ritual self-loathing as a horrible sinner is somehow better than actually doing something.

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    You know this to be so? I have counseled rape victims and abuse victims and people suffering immediately after accidentally killing their own loved ones, and picked up the dead and twisted bodies. You have no idea. Is someone here suffering? The best advice I can give here is to turn it over to God.

  • http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

    O_O

    *faint voice*

    You…. counselled rape victims?

    Words cannot express the sudden horror that crossed my features at the mental image. You’re a walking hazard in that profession.

  • Lori

    I hope that you’re making that up. No one who is suffering that way deserves to have you “counseling” them.

  • smrnda

    I know several victims of rape and sexual abuse who were basically told that their biggest problem was not forgiving the person who did it and moving on. Both of them left their churches and got secular counseling instead.

    I’m not saying you would say that, just that plenty of religions (not just or necessarily) your particular brand of Christianity) offer platitudes and victim blaming, or talk about ‘purity’ so much that victims (male and female) feel like damaged goods.

  • chgo_liz

    I think you may have hit it on the head: this poster was not a trained counselor but someone who provided “therapy” as part of a specific congregation’s tenets.

    As far as I know, all real rape counselors (the kind who are legally allowed into the ER, police station, and courtroom with a victim) are required to go through formal training. My training (I did this work for nearly 5 years….yes, it’s hell, most people don’t make it that long) required about 3 months of coursework as well as ongoing continuing ed seminars and monthly support sessions, and the acceptance rate to even start the program was about 1 in 10.

  • John Grotenhuis

    So basically, if you’re suffering: God will make it better, pray away the pain.

    If you’re in danger: Remember, it’s on you to protect yourself and nobody is going to do anything to change the world to make it a better and safer place for you to live in.

    And faith? That’s an abstract thing you lay all your insecurities on and doesn’t do shit for you here and now.

    Also remind me to never recommend any victims I meet to you for counseling.

  • smrnda

    Actually, depending on person and context some statements would be true in some cases and false or at least misleading in others. Let’s take ‘fat is a necessary nutrient.’ In a human nutrition class, it’s just a true observation likely to be later followed up with more information. As a random message to an obese American on their way to McDonalds, it’s definitely misleading.

  • John Grotenhuis

    …..

    PFFFFFFFFFFFFFT

    Oh. Oh, you’re uh, serious.

    Um… fuck. Wow. I don’t even… no. Just, no. I… no.

    Can someone else rebut that? I can’t believe I actually have to discuss Chattel Slavery being an immoral concept with someone.

    …I don’t even. It’s like you’re doing everything possible to remove any redeeming quality you could have had as a person from my perception of you. Are you testing my ability to have compassion for my enemies by pushing my ability to feel empathy for you as a fellow human being to its absolute limit?

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    Any other portions of the Bible that you are too modern for you there “Christian”?

    That is your carnal mind taking something as understood that you have no concept of and erasing it without a thought.

    Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
    (Rom 8:7)

    Try using some scripture there to refute it and quit leaning on secular humanism while pretending at “faith”.

  • Lori

    Given your highly selective quoting this is probably not a fight you want to pick.

  • John Grotenhuis

    Well, I’m not usually all that big on mass genocide or kidnapping of women, and I wear polyester and eat shrimp.

    I’m also in a long distance relationship with this really cute guy who looks like a lost member of One Direction. Oh, and I use the word “fuck” a lot but scripture doesn’t actually say anything about that, so I’m probably covered there.

    Really you’re banking on my faith being about looking at the Bible as a book written directly by God, not as a set of writings about the God I actually believe in filtered through human experience and context.

  • http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

    Aside: this really cute guy who looks like a lost member of One Direction

    Jelly. :P

  • John Grotenhuis

    Pride goeth before a fall but

    Yeah, you should be. Cutest boyfriend. Cutest. eeeeeeee.

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    I don’t have a problem with “fuck” or “shit” or really much of any language whatsoever, although sometimes what gets communicated will be an issue (filthy communication isn’t 4 letter words as I understand it but perversity in a topical sense).

    I’m not banking on your faith looking like anything. I know what “in Christ” looks like and how it behaves. His sheep hear His voice and even when they miss it He calls them back around. I know I’ve been called back around more than I care to admit.

  • Lori

    You’ve apparently got a bit of a hearing problem.

  • John Grotenhuis

    Well, so have I. It’s common to examine your faith, leave it, and return to it for a time. It’s also common to return to the faith with a renewed understanding of it.

    The difference between you and me is that you see your faith as calling you to run away from every opportunity to use that faith to do any sort of good for anyone else. And I see that as being the opposite reason to embrace faith at all.

    I don’t profess faith in Christ because of his divinity, though I believe in the Divine and the Transcendent. I profess faith in Christ because in the gospels he’s primarily portrayed as both understanding and encouraging his followers to work for the good of humanity. Being “set apart” does not mean arcane purity rituals and rejection of all that is new or apart from the status quo or not of ‘good stock’, we threw that away when God With Us became not a dream but a reality. Christ is with those who are with the least of these.

    And in my culture, that’s women, gay people, people of color, and the needy (and anyone else I haven’t thought of). So I stand with them. If this is somehow unchristian, then I apologize for hijacking the name of a rather poor religion and must search for a better one.

  • http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

    *cough* The B in the QUILTBAG would like to note that “gay people” implicitly assumes that he does not exist. :)

  • John Grotenhuis

    Ironically that’s me too, I’m just in the habit of using “gay” as shorthand to cover the way-too-wide spectrum. Apologies, I’ll try to be better about that in the future.

  • http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

    Have a lovely fluffy QUILTBAG. :D

  • John Grotenhuis

    I ACCEPT!

    (Yay, quilts!)

  • http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

    It’s really my favorite descriptive phrase for members of humanity that aren’t cisstraight. :)

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    Try reading your Bible and asking God to give you understanding. That is usually a good start. If you don’t understand something, set it down and pray about it some more.

    If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed. For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord. A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.
    (Jas 1:5-8)

    I lack wisdom all the time.

  • Lori

    Try reading your Bible and asking God to give you understanding.

    You deciding that the Bible says that you should be a jerk is not God giving you understanding. It’s just you being a jerk.

    I lack wisdom all the time.

    Truer words were never spoken.

  • John Grotenhuis

    I think my favorite thing about your advice is that I could literally attach it to anything else I’ve said and it would make just as much sense as a response, which is none. Because you didn’t actually respond to what I was talking about.

    Since you’re bent on having the conversation you want to have with me though rather than saying anything that remotely makes sense in context, I’ll just do the same thing.

    Now please explain what the ever-loving fuck you were thinking when you based Will from Umineko’s modus operandi on the creator of Philo Fucking Vance, Japanese doujin author Ryukishi07? Seriously, Philo Vance mysteries suck!

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
    (1Co 1:18-19)

    and with that:

    Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.
    (Mat 7:6)

  • John Grotenhuis

    So what you’re saying is that my response was so crushing it’s like being “rent” by a boar? Damn man, I didn’t think it was that funny.

  • smrnda

    The carnal mind apparently desires meaningful actions be done to benefit one’s neighbor, while the ‘spiritual’ mind is indifferent to actually preventing suffering.

  • smrnda

    Because it is so spiritually minded to stand idly by while others are being pissed and shat on. It’s spiritually minded to *suggest* that slavery is bad while telling the slaves to shut up.

  • http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

    Do you seriously quote these things as a substitute for a considered self-examination of your worldview?

  • Lori

    Yes, he does.

  • http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

    I have a serious question. Are you quoting from the KIng James?

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    Prefer the Geneva 1599?

    Let every man abide in the same vocation wherein he was called. Art thou called being a servant? Care not for it: but if yet thou mayest be free, use it rather. For he that is called in the Lord, being a servant, is the Lord’s freeman: likewise also he that is called being free, is Christ’s servant. Ye are bought with a price: be not the servants of men. Brethren, let every man, wherein he was called, therein abide with God.
    (1Co 7:20-24)

  • http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

    The reason why I ask is because in my experience the King James is unduly imbued with exalted-text status, and that kind of text-absolutism is characteristic of people who tend to treat the Bible as a kind of grab-bag of clobber verses.

  • http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

    Also, I use the Revised Standard Version exclusively when I quote Bible verses.

  • John Grotenhuis

    I respectfully request that as someone in a position of relative power, prestige, and privilege you die to yourself first before telling other people how to. That plank in your eye must hurt something awful

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    How about this, how about you start advocating for the truth instead of trying to compromise it so hard. Maybe having the world on your side should indicate something to you.

  • smrnda

    The world has about 6 billion people now, so it’s hard to know what ‘the world’ is for or against.

  • Lori

    Maybe being on the side of rapists should indicate something to you.

  • John Grotenhuis

    Compromising would require me to stop being a decent person and defending what I know is right and just and good.

    So basically taking every position you have over the entire course of this discussion.

    Also, they’re not the World. They’re people. They have names. They have concerns. They are fighting for good things. If Christ wants them, that’s Christ’s business and not mine. I, for one, figure if they’re fighting for the same goals I’m fighting for, care for the lost and the weak, and stand against assholes like you who make a mockery of everything I believe in? They are as Christian as I am in all the ways that matter.

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    What is a “decent” person? By whose standards are you “decent”. Is that something like weaseling your way towards “good”?

    And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God.
    (Luk 18:19)
    Sure we can forgo collectively calling them “the world” and use another term Jesus called them, the dead, if that will make you happier. And as far as what “the dead” thought was an important thing to do (to “fight for” as it were):

    But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.
    (Mat 8:22)

  • Lori

    Jesus also said, “Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.” There seem to be quite a few verses you’ve missed in the book you claim to follow.

  • John Grotenhuis

    Well, in the context of this discussion? “People who aren’t saying that they’d blame my sisters if they got raped and who will stand as their allies” seems like a pretty concrete good.

    As for what constitutes “decent” and “good” overall, I’m inclined to base that around those who treat other human beings as if they would, themselves, enjoy being treated: With respect, consideration, and love. People who love justice and turn away from the abuse and allure of power and oppression. People who stand for The Least of These.

    I live in a fallen world. The good, the just, and the true are those who do not accept the world as it is, and try to rise above it. We’re rising, my friend. Where are you?

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
    (2Ti 4:3-4)

    For he put on righteousness as a breastplate, and an helmet of salvation upon his head; and he put on the garments of vengeance for clothing, and was clad with zeal as a cloke. According to their deeds, accordingly he will repay, fury to his adversaries, recompence to his enemies; to the islands he will repay recompence. So shall they fear the name of the LORD from the west, and his glory from the rising of the sun. When the enemy shall come in like a flood, the Spirit of the LORD shall lift up a standard against him.
    (Isa 59:17-19)

    Men’s hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
    (Luk 21:26-28)

    I have answered with scripture and you have answered with ????

  • Lori

    You’ve answered with scriptures that you think are convenient to you and ignored the parts that don’t back you up. That’s not actually all that impressive.

  • smrnda

    Because totally, loving your neighbor with ACTIONS is useless. God wants more SCRIPTURE CUT AND PASTE!

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    I’m taking it that you meant to say “without ACTIONS”, correct? Which I would answer that I do a whole lot more than type on the internet, read my Bible and “cut and paste”, just as I’m sure you do more than what we see here.

    Is this where I’m supposed to tell you all the ways I enrich the lives of others?

    I realized some time ago that if I’m going to preach the Gospel to feminists or exhort a sister who has adopted feminist heresy that based on the nature of feminist claims have to address the feminism up front. That is because feminism as an ideology is diametrically opposed to the teaching of the Cross. Dying to self and giving your life over to God is the opposite direction that most humans are going, particularly those that are trying to change the world with an agenda of their own.

    It makes a rough gap to speak (or type) across but that is the lay of the land.

  • smrnda

    Your style of Christianity is the same as the one that saw no problem with slavery, as opposed to the other styles that saw destroying slavery as an imperative, that any talk of ‘dying to self’ is bullshit when one guy is holding the whip over another, because one person in that situation is clearly required to do so while the other is not, and unless you address that situation first, all ‘die to self’ means is ‘slaver masters rules you all!’

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    Thank you. That is the “type of Christianity” that Jesus Christ exemplified:

    Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.
    (Joh 18:36)

  • smrnda

    You do understand that Jesus is a special case? IF I understand it correctly, was’nt there something special gained by his death?

  • Lori

    13 Once again Jesus went out beside the lake. A large crowd came to him, and he began to teach them. 14 As he walked along, he saw Levi son of Alphaeus sitting at the tax collector’s booth. “Follow me,” Jesus told him, and Levi got up and followed him.

    15 While Jesus was having dinner at Levi’s house, many tax collectors and sinners were eating with him and his disciples, for there were many who followed him. 16 When the teachers of the law who were Pharisees saw him eating with the sinners and tax collectors, they asked his
    disciples: “Why does he eat with tax collectors and sinners?” 17 On hearing this, Jesus said to them, “It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners.” (Matthew 2: 13-17)

    The fact that Jesus’ kingdom wasn’t of this world didn’t seem to stop him from being concerned about this world.

  • cyllan

    I think it’s a Poe. I can’t be positive, but I think it’s a Poe. If so, my hat’s off to you, sir. Well done.

  • http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

    I realized some time ago that if I’m going to preach the Gospel to feminists or exhort a sister who has adopted feminist heresy that based on the nature of feminist claims have to address the feminism up front.

    Wat.

  • smrnda

    Yeah, he’s totally proven to this feminist that he loves me so much and so wants to show me sacrificial love that he wants to tell me that the biggest problem I have is being unwilling to accept blame if I get raped .

  • http://shiftercat.livejournal.com/ ShifterCat

    A handy chart:

  • John Grotenhuis

    In a striking plot twist, someone who uses Scripture as a tool for understanding past thoughts and conceptions of God isn’t using it to debate a random asshole on the internet.

    Also I’ve made several contextual allusions. “What you did for the least of these, you did for Me” being one of the more prominent ones. In a shocking twist you can use scripture without ever directly quoting it.

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
    (Mat 7:21-23)

  • Lori

    41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’

    44 “Then they also will answer Him,[a] saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’ 45 Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ (Matthew 25: 41-44)

  • John Grotenhuis

    Lost track of all these comment threads, but I just wanted to let you know: That was beautiful. Thank you.

  • Lori

    There are parts of the Bible of which I’m quite fond.

  • John Grotenhuis

    I note that those who “profess” are the ones in danger there. So that means Lori, smrnda, Neutrino, Anon etc. should all be fine?

    I mean, if you’re trying to clobber me for siding with them using that verse…

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    Maybe.

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    Again a butchered quote by the quote mining post-modernist.

  • http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

    Oh for God’s sake, knock it off.

  • http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

    Are you quoting from the King James?

  • http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

    People like you are what make me happy I’m not a Christian.

  • John Grotenhuis

    He’s working really hard to undo all the reparative work Fred’s writing has done for my faith over the years.

  • http://shiftercat.livejournal.com/ ShifterCat

    Not just a facepalm, but an…

  • http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

    As I like to say, “There is no palm that can encompass the magnitude of my facepalm.”

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    Consider it an education in just how strange someone can seem when you are completely encased in an all demanding ideology. Now you can honestly say that you have conversed with someone who has raised several barns with the Amish. That should give you some credit toward a feminist merit badge of some sort.

    You are very welcome.

    (And as an aside, for any believers that didn’t realize that feminism is an ideaology diametrically opposed to the teaching of the Cross, here is Exhibit F.)

  • http://shiftercat.livejournal.com/ ShifterCat

    You failed the Eliza test a while ago.

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    Dare I ask?

    If by that you mean that I cannot be Amish because I’m using a computer sitting under an electric light bulb, I would point out that I never claimed to be plain, nor Amish.

  • http://shiftercat.livejournal.com/ ShifterCat

    Troll’s Google-Fu is weak.

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    I might have had some idea if you had used the term Turing Test or ELIZA. You’re* lack of proper usage or any type context does not bear on my intelligence or reading comprehension.

    *and despite of the use of “you’re” instead of your everyone amazingly knew exactly what I was referring to. Unlike the poorly veiled stupid insult I am referring to.

  • http://shiftercat.livejournal.com/ ShifterCat

    And now you’re trying to pretend you knew it all along. But nobody believes you.

    *headpats* Run along now.

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    I suppose professing my ignorance in the first place isn’t proof against this “point” from the likes of you.

    I have heard of the Turing test and would have understand your comment if it had actually made any sense, oh smug one.

    Eliza? Do a little less poorly worded commentary and maybe you won’t be mistaken for a dysfunctional version of DOCTOR yourself.

  • http://shiftercat.livejournal.com/ ShifterCat

    This about sums up my reaction:

    http://replygif.net/i/538.gif

  • http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

    ShifterCat… wrote… the… word… Eliza.

    You’re a complete and utter blockhead if you can’t read for context.

  • Lurker

    …”You’re lack of proper usage…”
    Ow. Seriously.

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    Pedant much? Although I will grant that the irony is pretty humorous.

  • http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

    Says the person that actually claimed to need a word spelled in ALLCAPS to know what they ~really~ meant.

  • Lurker

    Yup.

    But I would have let it slide except that I like the taste of bitter, bitter irony.

  • Lurker

    …hmm. Edits are invisible? I’ll have to remember that one.
    *files away under potentially useful information*

  • http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

    Yeah, they aren’t re-emailed out. Some people who depend on emailed comments (as they can’t access Slacktivist from work) run into problems with this, unfortunately.

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    Maybe I just prefer to respond out of my Disqus account rather than sifting through 30 separate and flattened threads in all this mess. But think whatever you like.

  • Lurker

    Pfft! You edited your comment, which made mine look odd. I don’t particularly care where you edited it from. I don’t care that you edited it. I don’t care about you at all, actually.
    It’s just weird that disqus didn’t have a tag showing the fact that it was edited.

  • chgo_liz

    In some systems, if you edit within a short time frame (such as under 60 seconds after hitting “send”) the posted isn’t tagged as edited.

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    Dragoncon convention elves are some type of expert on identifying trolls? Is there a particular reason for that? On second thought, forget I asked.

    Now to hop out off the bandwagon, my weak geekspeak-fu has me at a disadvantage.

  • http://shiftercat.livejournal.com/ ShifterCat

    You guys, buddy here thinks he’s insulting me by calling me a convention-going, cosplaying geek!

    That’s just… wow. I don’t think I could find enough laughter .gifs to reflect how this makes me feel.

  • http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino
  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    Did you think that was an attempt at an insult? Really?

    Eliza Doolittle.

  • John Grotenhuis

    Given I managed a Fate/Zero reference and a sorta-two-fer for things Ryu07 wrote I’m shocked he hasn’t called me a weeaboo yet.

    Also the obligatory “Yu-Gi-Oh vs. Mark Driscoll” joke.

  • http://anonsam.wordpress.com/ AnonymousSam

    That’s a bad thing? And here I thought Mr. ShifterCat deserved a nod of respect. :D

    (If being a cosplaying convention geek is a bad thing, what does hanging around a coffee shop in medieval Romani garb with a 58 year old drag queen make me? Satan? Oh, wait…)

  • http://blog.trenchcoatsoft.com Ross

    Diametrically opposed? I missed the bit where Jesus yelled down from the cross “By the way, the whole point of this is to prove that women are not full human beings!”

  • Guest

    Well if clawing and screeching for the temporal benefit of perceived equality isn’t diametrically opposed to dying to self I’m not sure what is.

    You can engineer social justice or you can put on Christ, you cannot do both.

  • http://anonsam.wordpress.com/ AnonymousSam

    Or you can have spoken to God and understand that the whole business of all are one under Christ directly refers to equality. Your limited imagination proceeds this false dichotomy.

  • http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

    And Peter opened his mouth and said: “Truly I perceive that God shows no partiality,

    Or more commonly if obscurely stated “God is no respecter of persons”.

    Square that with your insistence that the equality of women is prohibited.

  • http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

    And “screeching and clawing”? Oh, you’re classy.

  • http://blog.trenchcoatsoft.com Ross

    Bull. Fucking. Shit.

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    Yes, screeching and clawing for social change in our own strength IS diametrically opposed to the message of the Cross. It is selfish and carnal (wanting to do things in ourselves always is) and Romans 8 makes clear what the end of that is. You can dress it up how you like but when man tries to fix something with a fix besides the Cross that “fix” is in opposition to the Cross, diametrically so.

    Trying to affect equality through social engineering is a completely different approach than dying to self and being found in Christ. Paul calls it the spirit of anti-Christ. If anyone mistook the ministry of Jesus Christ as being some type of social justice movement they have ignored His death on the Cross as a means of obtaining resurrection life. The two might look similar for a while but the flesh (carnality) always makes itself known (it reeks of death).

    Oh, oh, I know! Slut-walks for JESUS!

  • http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

    ‘social engineering’ another right-wing code word

    For all that you like to think you’re being funny with “I Art Laughing” as a riff on Laffer (as if you srsly had a beef with his taxation ideas, if you did your focus would be far more on the economic justice bits of the Bible), you are solidly, unreservedly a member of the Religious Right.

    I also see how you have implictly taken the stance that you don’t think any inherent injustices in this world are ethically or morally wrong.

    Republican.

  • http://anonsam.wordpress.com/ AnonymousSam

    Oh you son of clay. Shame on you.

  • http://blog.trenchcoatsoft.com Ross

    Oh, right. I forgot the part where Jesus said “If you help the downtrodden by actually feeding the hungry or stuff like that, it pisses me off; what you do for them is just spitting in my face. What I really want is for people to make a big theatrical show of how much they worship me.”

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    Despite yourself your mockery reflects the Bible better than you probably had imagined:

    “Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.”
    (Mat 7:21-23)

    Doing our own will such as in advocacy, what we think is right, is called “missing the mark”, also known as sin.

    We can do all types of what we presume to think are good deeds but we are not the ones holding the standard.

  • http://blog.trenchcoatsoft.com Ross

    Wow. It takes a special level of stupidity to take the exact passage I was alluding to and think that it’s a clobber text against me, you dumb fuck

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    No, by your complete twisting and incongruous method of approaching that passage shows how seriously you don’t get it. Jesus is saying that good works apart from Him don’t matter. I also understand that anything that you find that disagrees with whatever your life philosophy happens to be today is a “clobber text”. How convenient, crooked walls hate plumb lines.

  • http://blog.trenchcoatsoft.com Ross

    You just love making shit up and claiming that other people believe it, don’t you? You’re so insecure. Are you scared that you might be forced to face the fact that your position boils down to “Fuck you I got mine”? One might suspect that deep down, you know full well that your petty little tyrant god is just a big baby like you are, and has absolutely zero to do with the cross, with Jesus, or with the creator of the universe, but is just a projection of your petty hatreds, bigotries, and smug superiority.

    Jesus wept.

  • http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

    There is something to be said for avoiding looking like a sanctimonious pious hypocrite.

    “Beware of practicing your piety before men in
    order to be seen by them; for then you will have no reward from your Father who is in heaven.

    (Matthew 6:1 Revised Standard Version)

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    So *abracadabra you’ve inoculated yourself against anyone pointing you to Biblical truth? And doing so makes me evil?

    How do you suppose Jesus meant for his followers to preach to all the world without being seen by men?

    False context is clearly a projection you’ve grown comfortable with.

  • http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

    I have a working mind and I can decide for myself whether or not I want to study the Bible and gain its truths. I do not need you to do that thinking for me, nor do I require your unsolicited advice on the subject.

  • http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

    We can do all types of what we presume to think are good deeds but we are not the ones holding the standard.

    And what makes YOU so cock-sure you’ve got the golden ticket to the everlasting hereafter?

  • smrnda

    You are so generous. As a privileged person (male, and do you happen to be white?) it is so unselfish of you to tell less privileged people that the important thing is that they stop demanding to be equal to you.

  • http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

    Oh, oh, I know! Slut-walks for JESUS!

    I wonder what your wife would say if she knew you regularly pooh-pooh the efforts of women to gain greater social protections for themselves against the insistence that what they wear means they deserved to be forced into having sex.

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    By walking around mostly naked? You people are Sodom and Gomorrah absurd.

  • http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

    You didn’t actually answer the question. See the picture? That’s the kind of thing slutwalk wants people to think about: how much does rape culture influence who they think is truthful?

    http://madmikesamerica.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/this-is-what-i-was-wearing-tell-me-i-asked-for-it.jpg

  • http://blog.trenchcoatsoft.com Ross

    Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were
    arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy.

    Oh, right, but God doesn’t want people dispensing social justice, I forgot.

  • dpolicar

    “when man tries to fix something with a fix besides the Cross that “fix” is in opposition to the Cross, diametrically so.”

    Were that the case, the Cross would be well worth opposing.

    Fortunately for pretty much everybody, that turns out not to be the case.

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
    (Rev 13:8)

    And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
    (Rev 20:14-15)

    Do you have any other Biblical way to get into the book of life besides the Cross? Maybe you’ll picket you’re way into glory?

    By the way it didn’t work for Nimrod:

    And they said, Go to, let us build us a city and a tower, whose top may reach unto heaven; and let us make us a name, lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth. And the LORD came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of men builded. And the LORD said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do. Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another’s speech. So the LORD scattered them abroad from thence upon the face of all the earth: and they left off to build the city.
    (Gen 11:4-8)

    There is a reason why Revelation talks about the whore of Babylon, that’s what the world is constructing under the guise of social justice.

    Also, if any of you mockers care to note. I don’t mind so much that you mock me or the Bible that I’ve shared here. I know that one day soon we are going to be tested and all of our worldviews will be shaken. Our ego’s and bravado won’t support us. In that day some of what I said here may convince some. Besides that you won’t be able to point at God and say that you were not warned.

  • http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

    You assume that everyone has the same goals as you do.

    Assumption is the brother of all fuck-ups.

  • dpolicar

    Had you said “when man tries to get into the book of life,” or “when man tries to find his way into glory,” I would not have responded. I don’t have any opinion there

    What you said, though, was “when man tries to fix something.” People are most certainly capable of fixing things with things other than the Cross. And if the Cross opposed that, as you asserted, then the Cross would be well worth opposing, as I replied.

    That said, if you’d like to back away from what you said initially and replace it with what you’re saying now, that’s fine.

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    Did you miss the part of Rev 13:8 where it talk about the fact that it is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the worlds book of life? Maybe you’re forgetting that He was slain on the Cross and why.

    But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.
    (Gal 6:14)

    For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent. Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom: But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God. Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men. For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called: But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: That no flesh should glory in his presence. But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.
    (1Co 1:18-31)

    (And white men in a time when they are universally despised, especially if they believe in God).

  • dpolicar

    Yup, missed all of that in your initial comment. I don’t see it there now, either.

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    The Cross is the way into the Lamb’s book of life. If you don’t read the Bible for yourself how do you know I’m not prooftexting. You disputed my claim and I want and dug up more text, something that would have been better had you done it yourself.

  • dpolicar

    If the claim I quoted was intended to be solely about ‘fixing’ the problem of getting into the Lamb’s book of life, then I retract my objection.

    If it was about fixing problems more generally (e.g. feeding the hungry, healing the sick, teaching the ignorant, etc.) then I stand by my objection.

    I agree that it would have been better if you’d left me to do my own reading, rather than digging up more text.

  • phantomreader42

    I realize this fact will shock you, and I doubt you’ll ever be capable of fully comprehending it, but there are people who do not worship your personal interpretation of your preferred selection of out-of-context quotes from your cult’s book of mythology! Yes, I know it’s a surprise, but there really are actual real things in the actual real world that actually really happen without any reference at all to your imaginary friend and its magic book written in lamb’s blood and bound in human skin!
    I, for one, simply do not give a flying fuck what you imagine your sadistic imaginary friend is writing or not writing about me in your silly made-up “Book of Life”. It has no more relevance to my existence than what is supposedly written in The Book of Night With Moon or the Tibetan Book of the Dead, or the Necronomicon, or the Book Of Exalted Deeds, or the motherfucking Silmarillion.
    Of course, if you’re such a stupid asshole that you think you can get away with treating me and my friends and family like shit because your imaginary friend supposedly gave you ermission, then we have a bit of a fucking problem here. And you obviously ARE that stupid an asshole.

  • http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

    It may surprise you to realize that people have been thinking in such Manichean apocalyptic terms about the possibility of an End Times since at least the 1970s.

    Don’t hold your breath.

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    I also suspect that you don’t know how right you are:

    Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
    (Mat 7:13-14)

  • http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

    At the same time, purposely impeding it by being your truculent self is not on:

    Leviticus, ironically, has things to say, such as not purposely putting obstacles in the way of someone who isn’t going to see them.

    You are acting like such an obstacle to those who you want to adhere to your faith.

    I said before people like you make me glad I am not a Christian.

  • dpolicar

    I often don’t know how right I am.

  • smrnda

    Correction – demanding social change is selfish, but supporting the status quo is *never selfish* since it’s okay for privileged people to be selfish and demand that everybody else carry their crosses, too.

  • smrnda

    You don’t seem to be demanding the same ‘die to self’ from yourself, and I haven’t seen you make a call for self-denial from people who are actually privileged. It’s like you’re just asking marginalized groups to ‘take up a cross’ while they’re still expected to carry the crosses of the privileged.

  • http://anonsam.wordpress.com/ AnonymousSam

    Most of us know better, and wouldn’t associate you with him despite sharing base elements of your faiths. There’s a reason we congregate here, despite (and in many cases, because of) our host’s Baptist beliefs.

  • John Grotenhuis

    Oh, I know. It’s just that I’ve taken some of Fred’s words to heart and have decided that until minorities don’t have to apologize for their really weird atypical members, I should apologize for our really awful and far-too-typical members.

    Also I am genuinely embarrassed to share anything with this guy.

  • http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

    You show by your words that you believe in the absolutist gender-essentialist construction of male-female relations as quoted in the Bible.

    Am I wrong?

  • Lori

    There is nothing in either of those quotes that proves that anyone who doesn’t agree with your view of God is going to be punished for eternity.

  • http://blog.trenchcoatsoft.com Ross

    If you come to the bible without your misogyny and bigotry, you’ll find something other than your own misogyny and bigotry reflected back at you.

    You see, I know that the bible reflects an ancient society and is chock full of material that reflects that misogyny. But you don’t find the misogyny of first century Judea when you read the bible. You find support not for the kind of misogyny the writers of the bible had, but for your own particular breed of outdated mid-20th century bullshit. This should be a clue.

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    That is the interesting thing about the combination of “faith” and “truth”, they shouldn’t change with the times else they are neither faithful nor true.

    The lens that humanists have adopted registers their thoughts and understanding above Gods. God opposes the proud.

  • http://blog.trenchcoatsoft.com Ross

    Which one of us is acting very, very proud, I leave as an exercise to the reader.

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    I suppose that anyone preaching that salvation comes exclusively through the Cross and telling proud people to repent from their wicked ways would generally be considered proud themsleves. As a matter of fact I’m pretty sure that is why John the Baptist died, and Jesus, Paul, Peter, Stephen and the rest of the disciples as well. Not communicating a popular message, and the Gospel isn’t despite feminists an their ilk trying to co-opt it, often leads to martyrdom.

    “For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
    (1Co 1:17-19)

    I would also note that Christ’s body is not advocating feminism, the MRA, social justice or political affiliations.

    And it came to pass, when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted up his eyes and looked, and, behold, there stood a man over against him with his sword drawn in his hand: and Joshua went unto him, and said unto him, Art thou for us, or for our adversaries? And he said, Nay; but as captain of the host of the LORD am I now come. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said unto him, What saith my lord unto his servant?
    (Jos 5:13-14)

    It’s not that He doesn’t care, it’s that the only way to achieve social justice is by the grace of God and by resting in Him. Not beating our own chests, pridefully.

  • http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

    Oh, so now you do believe that there are inherent inequities in the world that need to be rectified.

    I submit that your particular suggested method is redundant to the task, and neither helps nor hurts the goal of the equality of all, male and female alike.

  • smrnda

    “Proud people to repent from their wicked way”

    Yeah, because a man telling women that it’s *their job to keep from getting raped* is so humble, and women who think it’s important to blame rapists and not how women dress for rape are just so arrogant. Totally, a guy who’s been telling everyone *ELSE* how they need to ‘die to self’ while holding himself up as a paragon of virtue owing to some sort of hyper-Calvinism is *so meek and humble.*

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    One of us has a standard of behavior outside of ourselves, the other makes it up as THEY see fit. Do we need to redefine the word proud too?

  • Baby_Raptor

    Using a strawman to attack people isn’t going to get you anywhere. That’s lying, which is something your god really doesn’t like.

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    You’ll have to do more than spout the term “strawman” to convince me of the error of my ways. When one person thinks that a moral standard is something besides themselves and one thinks THEY themselves ARE the moral standard who would you call proud? How is that a “strawman”, please explain.

  • http://blog.trenchcoatsoft.com Ross

    The only god he believes in is himself. He’s just deluded himself into thinking that the face he sees in the mirror has something to do with the god of christianity.

  • http://blog.trenchcoatsoft.com Ross

    No, you seem to have it down. You make up standards of behavior by projecting your own bigotries and hatreds onto the bible, while I have a standard of behavior based on treating other human beings as human beings and on following the teachings of Jesus Christ.

  • David S.

    If truth doesn’t change, why does it change so much? Holding to Victorian attitudes does not mean you’re being eternal.

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    The only things that are changing are the excuses of the sinners:

    “Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
    (Rom 1:21-23)

  • http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

    Oh my god I can’t believe you actually take such an absurdly absolutist view of faith and truth. There are “moral” truths in the Bible that are no longer necessary to obey because of progress.

    Have you any idea how society has evolved over the last two thousand years or more?

    We do things the ancients of the Bible era never thought remotely possible. We know things, like what causes disease, and how our bodies work, and how to prepare food safely in such a routine manner most people today don’t even know how to slaughter a cow or a pig.

    In short, things like the dietary laws originally honored by the ancient Jews are unnecessary, not because Jesus Christ said so, but because we can make those foods safe and can mix them together without raising the risk of disease. For example, cheese can now be treated so as to be of utterly no consequence when mixed with meats. Ham and pork are not required to be ritually unclean because we can treat those meats to be safe for human consumption.

    So too are the laws that required men and women to destroy or otherwise especially treat their clothing as unusable due to various emissions from the body. We even know why they happen now, and we understand that actually as long as one follows most standard clothes-washing procedures, the resulting cleaned clothes are perfectly acceptable to wear with no “period of uncleanness”. The same is true, particularly of menstruating women. They need not shut themselves away as part of ritual uncleanness laws, because there is nothing mysterious about it; menstruation is simply a biological function that can result in blood flow that can exit a woman’s vagina, and with appropriate precautions now available because of modern medical knowledge, women can do whatever they please unhindered by such rules, however legitimate they were at the time.

    So already, you see, religion and its observance has been transformed by the incredible leaps of knowledge humanity has made, in particular in improving the status of women compared to men.

    When women are not made prisoner to their bodies and are invited to be full and equal partners in society, that can only be to the benefit of everyone.

    Except perhaps hidebound grackles who fancy themselves Renaissance Men who quote Bible verses as a substitute for rational thought.

  • Lori

    The news you’re spreading isn’t good.

  • smrnda

    I dunno. At least the feminist ally men I hang around don’t think the acceptable way to handle rape is to complain that the victim isn’t being forgiving enough. Not that the teaching of forgiveness has to be warped like that, but in too many churches it is.

  • http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

    I love how special you think you and your faith-fellow-travellers are that you and your telephone line to God and Jesus are the only way to fix the planet.

    You’d go over well in a Shinto country. Not.

  • http://shiftercat.livejournal.com/ ShifterCat

    Erm. Mr. ShifterCat is Shinto, actually.

  • http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

    I was trying to make the point that G.I.L.’s insistent mulish Rayfordish tendency to claim he is the only one with the necessary access to perfect goodness and righteousness is not something that would go over well in any milieu that does not share his starting assumptions about which religious faith has unstated social imprimatur of primacy over all others.

  • http://shiftercat.livejournal.com/ ShifterCat

    Ah, gotcha. :)

  • http://anonsam.wordpress.com/ AnonymousSam

    *Raises hand* Not all people without empathy are this blind. Some of us sociopaths did the math intellectually and found the status quo intolerable.

  • John Grotenhuis

    My apologies.

    Did it hurt when they removed your empathy AND your logic?

  • http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

    I’m not sure that Art noticed. :P

  • John Grotenhuis

    I suppose if they removed his logic, he might notice but wouldn’t be able to do anything meaningful with that information.

    “My ability to reach rational conclusions does not appear to be functioning. I should go oppose feminists to protect women from rape.”

  • Lori

    You can’t miss what you never had.

  • Lori

    Well sure. Because relying on male family members has worked out so well for so many women.

    You’ve created a category you call “social rapes”. What is that exactly?

    What are women supposed to do if they don’t have trustworthy male family members?

    It’s also really interesting that you’re telling us that women have to rely on men for protection in the same thread where you’ve complained that it’s ridiculous that anyone should suggest that you can prevent rape.

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    “Social rapes”, fixed it to reflect the quote properly. (It now says “social offenders”) If you have a problem with that term ask “smrnda” to explain it to you. And now it’s pretty clear that you have missed the point.

  • smrnda

    It’s obvious, from your quote, that you have no idea what a social offender is.

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    Who shat in your oatmeal this morning Sunshine?

    Out.

  • smrnda

    Nobody, just if you’re going to read a post by me and you encounter a word or phrase you don’t understand, you could have actually looked it up before Mr All Wise and All Knowing expresses an opinion. Didn’t they teach you that in grade school? If you can’t even bother to square away what words mean before you go foaming at the mouth, why should anyone take you seriously?

    Or… are you so convinced you know everything that you don’t need to actually make sure you understand what other people write before you pontifcate?

  • http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

    Actually I think smrnda mentioned “social offenders”…

  • smrnda

    Wow, mansplaining man who complains that women don’t take enough responsibility for avoiding getting raped has the nerve to ask a women “rape on the brain much?”

    What you present as a solution is pretty much proven useless. When women get raped in patriarchal cultures, the woman is usually blamed by the men in her own family and is seen as having compromised the family ‘honor’. Often, to avoid having ‘damaged goods’ on their hands, the male family members decide to pawn off the woman to her rapist since after all, you broke it you bought it.

    So, your solution has been proven not to work in the type of patriarchal cultures where you *think* men would be protecting women.

    Also, I’m not sure if you’re aware but economic and social change means that most of us aren’t living within close proximity of male family members. The only 2 male family members I have still living are on other continents, and I have to travel often for work.

  • chgo_liz

    And the fact that most women are raped by trusted insiders: family members, friends, co-workers. Statistically speaking, a dark alley is SAFER for a woman than her own home, neighborhood, and workplace.

  • Shaenon K. Garrity

    Why would lesbian couples automatically need welfare? Oh, right, because on top of being evil, women are totally incompetent and can’t work for a living.

  • P J Evans

    And guys who think that women are like that don’t make good employees when there are a lot of women in the workplace.

  • FearlessSon

    For these folks, men’s authority over women and women’s submission to that authority is a central, essential keystone to their whole understanding of Christianity. Take it away and everything falls apart.

    In the words of Grumpy Cat, “Good.”

    If they are going to turn their faith into something so toxic, I want that faith ripped apart.

  • bekabot

    I’m giving this a like in Grumpy’s honor.

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    Driscoll is pro-submission? In what reality?

  • FearlessSon

    Have you seen Driscoll’s complimentarian crap? Mars Hill is full of this kind of toxic assignment of gender roles. All the stuff he spews about how men should be, and conversely how women should be. Some of the excepts from the book he and his wife wrote together about marriage make me pity Mrs. Driscoll and wonder what could have happened to her to make her so damaged. Hell, I would rather see their children taken into protective custody than let people like the two of them raise any.

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    I’ve seen Driscoll’s white knight crap. He likes to trash men in front of their spouses and tell’s them to “man-up” whilst practically pretending that women are without sin. Nudge him a little and he’ll start channeling Ken Nair or Joel and Kathy Davisson. If that is “complementarian” I’d hate to see what people would say about Biblical marriage.

    Maybe if someone started taking Eph 5:23, Col 3:18, Titus 2:3-5, 1 Peter 3:1-2 and 1 Cor 7:3-5 a whole lot more seriously we wouldn’t have the divorce rates we have today in the “Church”. Funny thing about not preaching the whole Gospel, you don’t achieve the same results without it.

  • Lori

    The only women Driscoll treats that way are “Godly women” who know their place and fulfill their role. And yes, that’s “complementarian”. “Complementarian” is just a thin modern gloss on what fundamentalists call “traditional marriage”.

    Driscoll doesn’t harangue men because he gives a crap about women. He harangues men in order to inflate himself and gain/maintain control. It’s one of the ways he makes sure he’s the Alpha dog. The man is running a cult or the next best thing to it.

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    I wouldn’t disagree with the cult part.

  • FearlessSon

    One of these days, I am going to attend one of Driscoll’s “male retreats”. When he tells me to “man up”, I am going to punch him in the stomach and yell, “Man enough for ya’!?”

    When someone tries to be an “alpha dog”, the most effective way of undermining them is to make them look weak in front of the pack they are trying to control.

  • http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

    Just ask him if he’s willing to lift a hundred pounds or something. Make sure you can lift said weight though. :P

  • FearlessSon

    The sad fact being, I probably cannot lift that much weight.

    No, what I need is speed and surprise. Even the strongest person can be hurt if caught unawares. I will probably be dragged off him and beaten into a pulp by his followers immediately after I get my first couple of blows in, but so long as I can bloody his lip first it will be worth it.

  • http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

    The point is to embarrass, not hurt physically. You hit him, all you’ll do is get his security guards all over your ass. But you prove you can man-up to something he can’t do, that’s worse.

  • John Grotenhuis

    Alas that real life doesn’t directly conform to the shows I used to watch when I was a kid.

    “Mark Driscoll! I challenge you to a public bout of this highly-marketable trading card game!”

  • http://blog.trenchcoatsoft.com Ross

    Not so fast! For you see, my sword drill proof texts have ANOTHER secret ability!

  • John Grotenhuis

    Curses, the effect of Disqus’s layout caused me to miss them! But never fear, I can always counter with C.S. Lewis!

  • FearlessSon

    I think hurting him physically is the best way to get to him. I want to see the look of surprise on his face just before my knuckles intersect with it. I want to see the rage in his muscles when he strikes back, feel his fury as the pain of his strikes lance up my body. It lets me know that I really got to this guy, I pissed him off in a very primal way.

    I managed to take this group and make them hate me, and feeling that hate in my body is totally worth it.

  • smrnda

    Just remember, fighting is a skill sport, and who can punch hardest isn’t measured by your bench press.

  • smrnda

    The increase in divorce rates are probably a result of a change in what people think makes a good marriage. It’s changed into things that can’t be fixed with a simple ‘try harder.’ Love as ‘devotion and sacrifice’ no longer means much to people who care about compatibility, which is a kind of you have it or you don’t quality.

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    Or it could be because someone is trying to make bread without flour.

  • Lori

    I don’t know about someone trying to make bread without flour, but I know you’re trying to make points without a clue.

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    Troll harder.

  • Lori

    Seriously? You’ve never posted here until you came to complain in this thread and you’re calling someone here a troll? Are you that arrogant or do you just not understand how the internet works? Your performance here would seem to suggest “that arrogant”.

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    Saying I’m ignorant, without a clue, and otherwise name-calling after each and every comment I make is a hint. The length of time we’ve been here respectively doesn’t really pertain to who is behaving like a troll and hence me calling you on your behavior hardly makes me “arrogant”.

  • http://shiftercat.livejournal.com/ ShifterCat

    He has no idea how to do a simple Google search, so of course he doesn’t know what “troll” actually means.

  • FearlessSon
  • smrnda

    I wish I could upvote that a million times. TROLL 2!

  • smrnda

    If this is a Biblical metaphor, you might want to explain the lower divorce rates among atheists then, as reported by the Barna group (a Christian organization?)

    Success in marriage seems to have very little to do with one’s beliefs about whether divorce is okay or not.

  • http://blog.trenchcoatsoft.com Ross

    Yes. People think that it actually matters whether both partners are happy or fulfilled or not being abused. If we’d just give up that silly notion, everyone could stay married forever.

  • FearlessSon

    Pretty much what Lori said.

    Patriarchy enforces certain gender roles, and that applies to men and women, regardless of the suitability for the particular person. In Driscoll’s case, part of “manning up” he tells guys to do involves being assertive over the women in their life. The trash-talking is kind of like the thing they do at boot-camp, tearing down someone’s ego so they can build it back up in a manner more suited to their liking.

    If Driscoll is at all a white knight, he is a “White Knight” in the classical sarcastic sense or someone who apes chivalry to cover a gender-inequitable world view.

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    Not a lot of Bible believing members of Christ in this thread.

  • Lori

    By “Bible believing” you clearly mean people who agree with your views.

    That’s not arrogant at all.

  • FearlessSon

    I would caution you, this kind of thing is only an invitation to derailment. It prompts a dovetail into a discussion of who is and who is not a “true Scotsman”.

    Frankly, I do not see what that has to do with it.

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    Not really, nobody is referencing the Bible as the truth. They aren’t even proof-texting or pulling out the definition of “hupotassō”. So far it’s 0 for about 10.

  • FearlessSon

    That strikes me as a bit of a non-sequitor. I do not follow your train of logic from my last post to your last post.

  • http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

    Art’s just showing off and thinks you’ll be totally impressed that you think proof-texting is cool, or that you know what “submit” means.

    http://www.bibletools.org/index.cfm/fuseaction/Topical.show/RTD/cgg/ID/3956/Hupotasso.htm

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    Generally people who are Bible-believing will use the Bible as their pole star. People who are knowledgeable about the Bible will use it to prooftext and poke holes in a believers arguments. I don’t even see the latter represented so far.

  • http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

    So you actually expect someone like me to trawl through the Bible and whip out verses to buttress my points?

    As opposed to using multiple references and common sense?

    I guess I can start, but I want to know if you’re using the King James.

  • FearlessSon

    I am not fond of the proof-text method because I find it often divorces the verse from the context. I tend to prefer a more analytic style, taking multiple verses that from the various stories and examining them in the light of their setting and (where applicable) the subject’s other actions and references elsewhere in the Bible.

    I feel that when you boil it down to a single point, you rob it of a lot of the meaning and risk going off-base with the lesson it is trying to impart.

  • FearlessSon

    I Art Laughing does bring up something that I have been mulling over in my mind for a while now though.

    Jesus condemned divorce, the Bible is clear on that. But what I had been thinking about was why did he condemn it? He demonstrates elsewhere that he was perfectly willing to brake any set of arbitrary rules if they conflicted with loving your neighbor as you love God, so why is he so concerned with upholding this particular one?

    It reminded me of what Fred said a bit ago about the message of Onanism being not about sex so much as it is about depriving someone of their mandated safety net? I get the feeling that Jesus was saying something similar there. In those days, a woman who was not claimed by a family pretty much had no recourse in respectable society, nothing to fall back on, and little hope for the future, especially if she had children (and therefor was “impure” to sire more offspring by remarrying.) Divorce in those times was practically throwing helpless women out on the street.

    It was not about the rule or God’s plan for a perfect family, it was about compassion and justice, in line with everything else Jesus preached.

  • Lori

    Folks like I Art Laughing do always seem to focus more on the submission part of that teaching than the part that says that men are supposed to treat their wives well, right up to the point of being willing to die for them.

  • smrnda

    The problem is that, when it comes to the ‘die for your wife’ part of the deal, that never comes up in the real world. The submission part does though.

  • Lori

    Husbands loving their wives does come up all the time though. Notice that’s one of the verses he conveniently left out of his cut and paste job.

  • smrnda

    The problem is that ‘love’ gets redefined by fundamentalists to be ‘anything I do, if I claim I’m doing it out of love , IS love.’ A woman can’t question that her husband loves her since he’s the Spiritual Head – if his behavior seems unloving or confusing, the woman just doesn’t get it, and that’s her problem, at least as interpreted by some.

  • Lori

    To which I say, “I am submitting. You just don’t get it.”

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    Yeah, I’ve seen that all the time. That is not nearly good enough. Legalists like to define away their own responsibility and that is the typical example. We are supposed to be obedient to the Holy Spirit, and He calls us on legalism all the time. Being convicted and cut off from God as a believer is never much fun:

    Likewise, ye husbands, dwell with them according to knowledge, giving honour unto the wife, as unto the weaker vessel, and as being heirs together of the grace of life; that your prayers be not hindered.
    (1Pe 3:7)

    (Remember what I said about feminism and the Gospel).

  • smrnda

    I’m not sure that what you said there and here really have any clear meaning. The obligations within marriage under this model are not symmetric, and therefore, one party is less than the other.

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    It isn’t symmetrical (with is an egalitarian beef) but in Christ ALL are equal. Nothing in this world is symmetrical everyone is a “special snowflake”, isn’t that a good thing?

  • http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

    Somehow I doubt you really mean what you say. “Special snowflake” is a right-wing derogatory dog whistle for people who believe in 1940s-style “back to basics” education that treat all children as interchangeable cogs in a one-size-fits-all education system with little room for individualized learning styles.

  • smrnda

    You mean like animal farm? “Some animals are more equal than others.”

    In an asymmetrical world, part of morality is correcting the asymmetry. I’m disabled, and a law called “The Americans With Disabilities Act” provides me with some accommodations since life and employers are already unfair towards me. The problem with your view is that you’re saying ‘it’s asymmetrical, and well, some people are just going to be on the bottom, and they had damn well better submit properly!’ Next you’re tell me about the horrible burden of privilege…

  • Lori

    Jinx

  • http://anonsam.wordpress.com/ AnonymousSam

    The best part about this post is that it came up before the post to which it is a reply in my email notifications, as if you guessed what smrnda was about to say and jinxed at the same time. +1 Internet for Internet accidents!*

    (Edited to remove HTML-bork, which apparently happened because I copied and pasted smrnda’s name.)

  • smrnda

    Whoa, I DID THAT?

  • http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

    No longer relevant to AS’s post.

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    No, it’s not exactly that. When you impose a hierarchy like many men have done that is what it looks like, but it isn’t supposed to. That’s why Paul wrote that to be carnally minded is “death”. The carnal (sinful) man/woman is going to lord it over whoever they can. Instead Jesus taught by example to serve (even the Samaritan women, which was considered taboo):

    But ye shall not be so: but he that is greatest among you, let him be as the younger; and he that is chief, as he that doth serve. For whether is greater, he that sitteth at meat, or he that serveth? is not he that sitteth at meat? but I am among you as he that serveth.
    (Luk 22:26-27)

    and Paul wrote about asymmetry to the Corinthians:

    For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. For the body is not one member, but many. If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body? And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body? If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling? But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him. And if they were all one member, where were the body? But now are they many members, yet but one body. And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you. Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary: And those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness. For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked: That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another.
    (1Co 12:13-25)

  • http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

    I thought the wages of sin was death.

    And are you quoting from the King James?

  • smrnda

    Nations everywhere, throughout history, suffered under lousy kings, emperors etc. I’m sure plenty of people thought “wow, what we need is a benevolent dictator instead of a power-mad egotist!” This dream failed to materialize, so the hope for a better authority was abandoned and replaced with the idea of governments that were in some sense democratically elected and accountable to the public.

    Benevolent authority – something that does not really happen in real life.

  • http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

    Some people say Josip Broz Tito got close.

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    Democracies are the graveyards of civilizations. “Accountable to the public” is akin to saying accountable to the mob. In Revolutionary France your child could get their head removed to satiate the blood-lust of a crowd. Consider what Themistocles might have to say about democracy.

  • smrnda

    You mean right now, things are worse than under an empire? You realize that knights could rape peasant women with impunity, that Roman paterfamilias could legally kill their kids or sell them into slavery? You need to read Pinker’s “The Better Angels Of Our Nature” proof is that today is less violent and less brutal than in the past. Revolutionary France is hardly a modern democracy, that’s like saying air travel is dangerous since the Wright brothers didn’t stay airbourn very long.

    Civilization did not exist before democracy, all that was there was power for a few and slavery for the many. You can easily bash something that’s been incredibly good for you (and all of us) and put on the rose colored glasses, but it doesn’t match the facts.

    You also have religious freedoms under democracies that certainly did not exist in the past. Care to live under a regime where the Pope can have you executed for disagreeing with the party line?

    You also might want to check the fact that a famine has not happened in a functioning democracy, but has under totalitarian regimes.

    So… slavery is okay, democracy is bad, the only problem is those people demanding rights… and you wonder why some people think Christianity is an oppressive religion?

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    Our modern democracy is going to fall apart ugly. Read “Democracy in America” by de Tocqueville and consider what the founding fathers had to say concerning republic vs. democracy.

    Here are some from Benjamin Franklin:

    “Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote.”

    “When the people find that they can vote themselves money, that will herald the end of the republic.”

  • http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

    Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote.

    Widely attributed to Franklin on the Internet, sometimes without the
    second sentence. It is not found in any of his known writings, and the
    word “lunch” is not known to have appeared anywhere in English
    literature until the 1820s, decades after his death. The phrasing itself
    has a very modern tone and the second sentence especially might not
    even be as old as the internet. Some of these observations are made in
    response to a query at Google Answers.[8]

    The earliest known similar statements are:

    A democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch.

    Gary Strand, Usenet group sci.environment, 23 April 1990. [9]

    Democracy is not freedom. Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to eat for lunch. Freedom comes from the recognition of certain rights which may not be taken, not even by a 99% vote.

    Marvin Simkin, “Individual Rights”, Los Angeles Times, 12 January 1992:[10]

    Democracy must be something more than two wolves and a sheep voting on what to have for dinner.

    James Bovard, Lost Rights: The Destruction of American Liberty (1994), ISBN 0312123337, p. 333

    Also cited as by Bovard in the Sacramento Bee (1994)

    http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Benjamin_Franklin

    Try doing more research.

  • smrnda

    One way of getting around this problem was to ensure that people would have some rights that cannot be voted away – this is why we have a judicial branch of the government.

    On the ‘voting themselves money,’ our real problem is that people with lots of money can buy the government and basically make sure that the US is just a tax haven for rich people. Franklin’s quote assumes (which was as false when he said it as it is now) that poor people are just lazy and looking for a handout. Poor people tend to work the hardest. I already read On Democracy, and on the vision of the founding fathers, the opinions of pompous white male property and often slave-owners as to the danger of giving ordinary people a say in government is just the whining of privileged people who think if they can’t rule over others civilization is doomed.

    Republics can work because they ensure that everybody has rights, but they can also just mean ‘only aristocrats can participate in government,’ which just means you end up with a permanent underclass with no way out, which is getting to be the case in the US.

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    “Poor people work the hardest”, true, until they become Marxists, and then they can whine until we have a “disaster of the commons”.

  • smrnda

    Are you going to tell me next that the only sustainable economic model is chattel slavery, since it’s the only way to make sure those lowly proles work?

  • http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

    Well, you’re free to move to the nearest dictatorship of your choice, since many of the North and South American and European nations are democracies….

    Oh, what’s that? You don’t like being suddenly subject to the whim of the guy in charge?

    You want all the benefits of living in a country whose political and economic system delivers the kind of lifestyle that lets you say things like that on a forum like this, but you want none of the responsibilities.

    Republican.

  • Lori

    Those verses are rendered meaningless when women are told they must keep silent and submit to men.

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    You don’t like the Bible very much? Is it because you are too self-righteous and proud to submit to an authority besides what YOU want? Your God is your own ego, complete solipsism.

  • http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

    It may surprise you to know that this atheist, who does believe in a fundamentally solipsistic construction of reality, nevertheless also believes that there are objective constructs of reality that exist outside oneself.

    It’s just that I don’t think God is a very good example of an objective construct.

  • Lori

    There are a great many things in the Bible that no decent person would like. Genocide. Slavery. Cruelty of all sorts carried out by those who are supposed to be the good people.

    There are other parts of the Bible that I like just fine, but don’t consider a perfect guide for life. That’s in no small part because of people like you. Jerks for Jesus are not a good witness. You use the Bible to justify what you want and then accuse me of not following it because it doesn’t say what I want. This is, and always will be, hypocritical bullshit. You bring shame on the name you claim to love. When it comes to the truth of the Bible you better hope I’m right and you’re wrong. Because if the Bible is true and the Christ described in it is the final judge of human lives you are totally screwed because you are nothing like him.

  • chgo_liz

    Stop looking in the mirror when you pontificate.

  • Lori

    Everyone is equal in Christ, some Christians are just more equal than others. The ones with penises. The ones who equate their opinions with the mind of God and think everyone who disagrees with them is going to hell for eternity.

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    You’ll never get anywhere with God if you insist on always grinding your “equality” axe. It. Just. Won’t. Work.

  • AnonaMiss

    Just like Martin Luther King, amirite

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    I suspect you are. The adoration of the modern humanist is likely small compensation.

    Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?
    (Mat 16:24-26)

  • David S.

    Because Dives, or the Rich Man, got so far with God grinding his superiority axe. Only person actually seen in Hell in the Gospels; perhaps that means something

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?
    (Mat 16:24-26)

  • http://anonsam.wordpress.com/ AnonymousSam

    Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do …

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    What are you suggesting? Get killed by a bunch of self-righteous intolerant bigots? That should be easy with folks like these.

  • http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

    You really are astounding in the way you actually believe you’re going to be a martyr for your faith.

  • http://anonsam.wordpress.com/ AnonymousSam

    Christians are so persecuted in this day and age, aren’t they?
    https://sphotos-a-sea.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/1184933_624077877625136_2085957675_n.jpg

  • phantomreader42

    No, you’d be the one hiding behind the self-righteous intolerant bigots, gleefully handing them stones to throw at anyone who dared to suggest that True Christianity™ is about anything but treating everyone except straight white male christians like shit. You’d be too much of a coward to actually throw any stones yourself, until the victim was too weak to have any hope of fighting back, but you’d puff yourself up as a brave warrior for god all the same. Then you’d go home and jerk off fantasizing about watching your monstrous imaginary friend burn everyone who disagrees with you alive forever.

  • http://blog.trenchcoatsoft.com Ross

    I do not think the word “self-righteous” means what the person who keeps attributing his own hate to God thinks it means.

  • David S.

    If “deny himself” means anything, it can’t mean that you should lord your superiority over others. And again, you ignored what I wrote. The only person seen in Hell in the Gospels was there for thinking he was superior to the man eating the scraps under his table. If you care about the Bible and not just prooftexting it, you’ve got to have some real response to that.

  • http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

    GIL actually *lives* for prooftexting: “People who are knowledgeable about the Bible will use it to prooftext and poke holes in a believers arguments.”

    Right in this here thread.

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    You all clearly think you are superior to me. But somehow after all of your goading it seems that you really must feel that you are wrong I suspect.

  • phantomreader42

    Did you whine about how everyone other than yourself thinks they’re superior before or after you changed your pseudonym to pretend you’re GOD?
    I seem to remember a story about some guy who said to deal with the log in your own eye before whining about the speck in your neighbor’s. Do you have any idea who might have said that? Oh, never mind, must’ve just been some damn godless hippie, because we all know no True Christian™ would ever dream of saying such a thing, much less living by it…

  • smrnda

    No, I just think that a person who believes that to be moral one must address injustices in this world is superior to a person who thinks morality is simply a matter of having the proper spiritual attitude.

    White guy determined to end slavery – good guy.
    White guy who thinks slaves need to just shut up about ‘freedom’ and remember ‘hey, both you and the guy who whips/rapes you are equal in Christ’ – lazy sod.

  • Lori

    In your oh-so-extensive study of the Bible did you notice that Jesus reserved his harshest criticism for those who places themselves above others and that he never bought anyone’s faux-humble crap? You’re the one employing an approach that Just. Won’t. Work.

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    Yeah, and that is somehow not a perfect description of feminists wagging their fingers under every person in the worlds noses? Who “holds” the moral high ground now, who shouts people down in the streets and on the campuses and screeches about a war on women? I’m sure that isn’t because of a sense of superior morality at all.

    You are completely irrational.

  • smrnda

    It’s not arrogant to point out facts because sometimes certain people do have the high ground. I would say that your teaching of ‘it’s against the rules to talk about being a victim’ just means that the real oppressors never have to answer for their behavior, and the people they wrong are silenced.

  • Lori

    Again you show your obsession with feminists. I have no idea why you felt the need to put the word hold in scare quotes, but the people who shout other people down on streets and on campuses are generally “Christian” men shouting about how everyone who doesn’t agree with them is going to hell and complaining in a very rude and impious manner about how female passersby are dressed. Their screeching is part of the war on women and it certainly seems to be driven by their sense of superior morality. Either that or insecurities about the size of their penises and anger over the fact that there are now a few places where they aren’t automatically in charge just because they’re white men. It’s hard out there for a bigot.

  • http://blog.trenchcoatsoft.com Ross

    Yeah, God certainly isn’t into equality. If He were, he’d have done something like turned himself into a mortal human.

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    To demonstrate to us self-denial and the way of the Cross. But you’ve clearly missed that part.

  • smrnda

    Yeah, that’s just what slave owners used to say.

  • Carstonio

    Perhaps instead of a cross, their symbol should be something else that is longer than it is wide. The two malefactors’ crosses could be objects much more rounder.

  • http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

    Are you quoting from the King James?

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    Do you need a copy of the Bible for a more thorough reading? E-sword is free, just Google it.

  • http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

    Are you quoting from the King James?

  • Lori

    Pride goes before destruction,
    And a haughty spirit before a fall. (Proverbs 16:18)

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    A verse I’m certain you and your friends will exemplify well. You’re so ready to chime in on every post I make and call me a delusional clueless troll, with your peanut gallery backing you up. You’re not proud? Funny stuff right there.

    Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls. But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves. For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass: For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.
    (Jas 1:21-24)

  • Lori

    In this context it doesn’t matter if I’m proud. I’m not the one claiming to be following the book that condemns pride and a haughty spirit.

    You have clearly not received anything with meekness and I see no evidence that you’re a doer of the word in any meaningful sense. You’re just a guy who uses the Bible as an excuse to treat other people badly and to fluff up his own ego.

    Your selective cut & past doesn’t impress anyone here. Do you usually hang out places where it does? If so, you should probably go back there. You said yesterday that you were leaving, but you couldn’t stick the flounce. Typical.

  • http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

    Oh speaking of which, the fact that you use a program that was named “E-Sword” is very telling. Fred used to write about how he would get “sword drills” when he was younger, which apparently amounted to a Bible verse recital contest and whoever could whip out the most verses the fastest got the powerup and won the game.

    The problem with that method is it decontextualizes the verses and renders them effectively meaningless except as “clobber texts” in which you bust out something you think says everything you need to say and whoever you’ve just presented it to is supposed to be so completely struck dumb by its sheer awesomeness they’re supposed to get on their hands and knees and concede that you’re totes the greatest.

    News flash: No go, buster.

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    Not if you read and try to understand it all. That’s hard for someone that hasn’t read and doesn’t understand any to tell.

  • David S.

    I love how people who are monofocused will dismiss anyone else who has a wider focus then them. Invisible Neutrino is I’m sure quite familiar with the Bible, as most of us are. And yes, surely if someone has an opinion on the Bible that disagrees with you, that’s proof positive that they don’t understand what they’re reading.

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    Are you talking about feminists again?

    When someone drives so deeply into a completely selfish ideology that they turn their only lifeline into a curse and contradict nearly every page and principle in the Bible I don’t think fiddling with a few words is going to swing things back to “Godly”. That goes for MRA’s too.

  • Lori

    You certainly are obsessed with feminists.

  • David S.

    It’s amazing how the ideology that the people in power should keep theirs, generally held by the people in power, is not considered selfish, but the concept that the poor or weak should get more is always considered horribly selfish and grasping. Very Biblical; not to beat a drum, but wasn’t Lazarus given a swift kick by Abraham and told to go service Dives?

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    In what world do you think Christians are sitting atop any type of hierarchy? Forget that you are not in the 16th Century? If we were I’d be throwing stones at the “church” right along side of you (and that goes for Calvin and Luther too).

  • http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

    So it is true. You ARE stuck in the past.

    Too bad it can’t be literally arranged for you.

  • David S.

    You mean besides the fact that Lincoln was the last president of the United States who wasn’t a church-going Christian? Besides the fact that the monarch of half the world is by law Anglican?

    In any case, I wasn’t referring to Christians. You’ve steadfastly upheld the status quo as a white male that somehow supports you on the top of the hierarchy. This is not apparently selfish at all.

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    Apex fallacy, because some man somewhere was white claimed to be a Christian and held a position of power ALL white Christian men are powerful?

    That’s a funny construction there buddy. Now read Foxe’s book of Christian martyrs and tell me how many of the early martyrs were white males. Since then most martyrs are not in the West but in places like Egypt and Syria, and what are these powerful Christian men doing to help them? Al Gore is one of these guys isn’t he? His family made a fortune in east Africa? Did he have anything to say about the millions of Christians dying in Darfur? Did the all powerful white Christian man put a stop to it?

    If white Christian men were so powerful could you explain the pile of dead martyrs throughout history? Doubt it.

  • http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

    Ah yes, the old “BUT IT TOTALLY STILL HAPPENS OUTSIDE THE USA AND WAY BACK IN THE PAST” dodge.

    News flash: Are you, personally, right now, in the United States of America, in danger of losing your life due to your faith?

    No?

    Well then!

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    Sophistry.

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    If I invest in sex-trafficking and underage prostitution in Southeast Asia, will that be okay since it will be happening “outside of the U.S.A.”?

    I mean no feminist, personally, right now, in the United States of America, is in danger of getting sex trafficked due to their ideology, right?

    Oh and by the way, gee whiz genius, if anybody is targeted for death specifically for being a Christian, and it does happen in the US, those count too. So am I “in danger”? Not much. Am I danger free? Not at all.

    Sounds like you are blaming the victim again, all those poor dead Christians of color would have to have done was move to the US under amnesty and they wouldn’t have been killed. I wonder why the powerful “Christian” men in this country didn’t move heaven and earth to make that happen?

  • http://anonsam.wordpress.com/ AnonymousSam

    I mean no feminist, personally, right now, in the United States of America, is in danger of getting sex trafficked due to their ideology, right?

    Due to their ideology, no. Sex slaves tend not to have the freedom to exercise feminism.

    Due to being female, yes. Hundreds of sex slaves in the United States have been rescued in this year alone.

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    Your bias is showing again.

    Dead people don’t have the freedom to exercise their beliefs.

    Due to being human, yes. Hundreds of Christians in the United States have been murdered this year alone.

  • http://anonsam.wordpress.com/ AnonymousSam

    Unless you’re including the ones overseas fighting battles and people killed who just happen to be Christian (as opposed to being killed for being Christian), that isn’t true. Only 111 confirmed anti-Christian hate crimes occurred in 2011 and I doubt the number has substantially increased.

  • smrnda

    You cannot claim to be oppressed for being a Christian in the US.. Christians in other nations are oppressed, but not you. You are *appropriating* other people’s misery by pretending it applies to you.

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    So are you suggesting that progressives never do precisely this?

    Also, Jesus our head looks upon this in an entirely different light:

    And when we were all fallen to the earth, I heard a voice speaking unto me, and saying in the Hebrew tongue, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks. And I said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest.
    (Act 26:14-15)

    For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. For the body is not one member, but many. If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body? And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body? If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling? But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him. And if they were all one member, where were the body? But now are they many members, yet but one body. And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you. Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary: And those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness. For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked: That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another. And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it. Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.
    (1Co 12:12-27)

    I have friends that have been nearly beaten to death in the 10/40 window, friends that have been imprisoned for their faith and counted amongst their friends people martyred. You presume a lot.

  • http://blog.trenchcoatsoft.com Ross

    Names.

    Give us some names or some links to news articles about these people you claim you know who were martyred for their faith.

    You seek to comfort the comfortable and afflict the afflicted. I’m not especially inclined to believe you’d fellowship with anyone who actually experienced earthly suffering.

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    Yeah, that isn’t going to happen. Go read “Voice of the Martyrs” and guess. I have had many foreign missionaries in my home at my dinner table. You can take that or leave it.

  • smrnda

    The question was whether you yourself were oppressed.

    I have Black friends who have been subject to pretty shitty treatment by law enforcement. However, that hasn’t happened to me.

    However, I think that my duty as a non-Black person in the States is to oppose racist policing policies and practices, not to tell my Black friends that they’re ‘blessed’ to be so oppressed. I’d imagine you’d fight for a change in the laws to make life better for Christians abroad?

    Are you suggesting that it’s only *selectively bad* to be on the side of opposing oppression?

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    And what sex is that monarch? Is their any reason you left that part out?

  • http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

    The rules about lines of succession favor men in the Royal Family. Statistically there have been more male sovereigns than female.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_British_monarchs

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    Red herring, you are a walking dictionary of logical fallacies.

  • http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

    You know, I live in a country that actually acknowledges that sovereign (I’m Canadian). I think I fucking know more than you do about the importance of the fact that historically there have been many more male rulers of the UK (and prior to that, England) than female.

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    What does that have to do with the fact that the monarch is currently a woman dipshit? Please explain instead of endlessly deflecting and dragging every insipid sophistry you can muster at everything I say.

    Is their one thing I have said that you could agree on you slackjaw halfwit? Or do you find meaning in life by being contrary?

  • http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

    [8] But now put them all away: anger, wrath, malice, slander, and foul talk from your mouth.

    Colossians 3

    This will be my last discussion with you until you apologize for your conduct towards me.

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    So you WON’T be hectoring my every comment? That’s nice.

  • http://anonsam.wordpress.com/ AnonymousSam

    So you are unrepentant of your sins because you enjoy the implicit malice? That’s wonderful. It’ll make sorting you among the goats so much easier.

  • hagsrus

    LOL – this so reminds me of Beatrix / Black Mamba. Anyone else remember her?

  • http://anonsam.wordpress.com/ AnonymousSam

    No, but I’m reminded of icemamba.

    http://i41.tinypic.com/1zwiu0j.jpg

    (Obscure inside joke. icemamba was a Christian troll personality created by a guy I used to know to troll our community.)

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    You won’t see me on another thread here. Right now I have your undivided attention because many people are finding it enjoyable to goad me. We’ll all get bored and move on I’m sure. So unless you keeping some type of a running registry on every single thread where someone intruded on your kaffee-clatch I don’t think you’ll be remembering me in a similar way. Although, it would be really nice if you did. All you scoffers trying to claim prooftexting are actually reading some very pertinent parts of the Bible.

    So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.
    (Isa 55:11)

  • http://anonsam.wordpress.com/ AnonymousSam

    That’s one of my favorite verses, because it is proceeded by a proclamation that rain and snow don’t return to Heaven — a statement so at odds with contemporary knowledge of the water cycle that translations in the 1960’s began altering the wording to imply that rain and snow do return to Heaven after accomplishing their purpose. Not that this excuses your idolatry.

  • http://blog.trenchcoatsoft.com Ross

    Right, that’s why in 200 years, we’ve never had a christian president, a christian supreme court justice, and christian senators are few and far between.

  • http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

    I love how you pay lip service to the notion that you’re criticizing Men’s Rights Activists when you all but regurgitate the kinds of ideas they are in lock-step with you on – starting with the idea that women are inherently inferior and make up for it by trying to “trap” men with false rape and pregnancy and ruinous divorces.

    I don’t see you saying a WORD about those kinds of things.

  • smrnda

    I dunno. Feminism and me have a long history, and my life has been pretty much okay. I’ve read the Bible though I find it to be about what I’d expect from a human book written by people who were a little bit ahead of their time – a useful document, but certainly not a complete ‘how to’ book on life.

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    Yeah, loving her as our own flesh does come up all the time though.

  • smrnda

    That metaphor doesn’t really provide me with any clear idea of how that works out in practice or what it entails.

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself. For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:
    (Eph 5:28-29)

  • http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

    Are you quoting from the King James?

  • smrnda

    I’m still drawing a complete blank. “Nourish” – does this mean that men do the cooking?

  • Lori

    No, that’s just an analogy.

  • smrnda

    Why not just say “don’t be an asshole to your wife?” or “don’t be patronizing, it isn’t cute?”

  • Lori

    Because a man wrote it.

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    Good one. My wife needs massages for her leg that she injured because it cramps, I do that whenever she needs it. I offer her encouragement and do the dishes and cook when she isn’t able to, so in my case, yes. I make sure the toilet stays flushing, the water stays running and that the house stays warm (even at -50F). I care for her wellbeing, because the Lord has been generous enough to show me that it is MY wellbeing. So I would say it’s more “Chicken Soup for the Soul” with feet on it kind of nourishing.

  • http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

    Oh, so you’re not doing any of that because that’s what any ordinary decent human being would do for someone he or she cares about. You’re doing it because you say God told you to.

    You’ve just basically conceded that without God holding the metaphorical gun of Hell to your head if you do something wrong, you’d happily go out and be a total jerk to everybody.

    And you would have the utter temerity to call an atheist like me depraved and in need of “saving”.

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    Classic atheist “pull yourself up by your own bootstraps out of the goo that you developed from” morality there. Congrats, well regurgitated.

  • David S.

    Classic atheist, believing that something matters besides ourselves, who don’t think that justice is irrelevant just because it “won’t get us saved”.

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    Indeed.

    However you have inferred a pretty big assumption. Maybe if you weren’t so prejudicially ignorant it would be worth having a discussion with you.

    Justice is important because God, by His nature, is a just God. If I want to understand Him and know Him more deeply I need to understand and actually do justice. If I am going to relate with a perfectly just God I need to change myself to be pleasing to Him (for he changes not).

    He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?
    (Mic 6:8)

    Abiding in Him requires that we be like Him. “Being saved” is a perk of living in a “house” that isn’t burning to the ground. Being just is a result of the transforming power of the Holy Spirit, a perk of living in the house.

    Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near: Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon. For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
    (Isa 55:6-9)

  • David S.

    All this coming from someone who said ‘”Human rights” are a corruption of the Gospel’ and showed his awesome humility on this thread. Yes, I am prejudicially ignorant for not dismissing others and their morality because of their beliefs. If I just bagged on atheists and feminists, I would be so less prejudicial and ignorant!

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    Nah, human rights aren’t a corruption of the Gospel, that is churchianity like Scarlet/John so aptly exemplifies. Specifically, The syncretism of the Gospel and human rights creates one of the heresies of churchianity. The carnal rights movement as I have stated is in opposition to the spirituality of Christ. We cannot serve two masters.

    So what is your premise that the Gospel be rejected because the feminists have stamped their feet, said their piece and counted to three? That the message of the Cross should be democratized and anyone that persists upon it be label “prejudicially ignorant”?

    Yeah, and yet I’m the one “bagging on” feminists and atheists, the evangelists of “morality” (such as derisively calling anyone they disagree with names) and “tolerance”.

  • smrnda

    You violate your own quoted Bible verse about ‘loving justice’ when you refuse to work towards justice in the world on behalf of the less-privileged.

  • http://blog.trenchcoatsoft.com Ross

    You’ve just basically conceded that without God holding the metaphorical
    gun of Hell to your head if you do something wrong, you’d happily go
    out and be a total jerk to everybody.

    He seems perfectly content to be a total jerk to everyone even with the metaphorical gun.

  • smrnda

    So you are, overall, a decent person? Isn’t ditching any notion of hierarchy likely to make that work better in more cases? You can’t abuse an authority you don’t have.

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    The authority is whatever is granted by God (not by man). I didn’t go in for ordination myself so I don’t think much of being out front like a Driscoll.

    I would say I’m a “decent person” but I know that to be false. When I examine myself I know that I am a far cry from the image of Christ, the man that God wants me to be. If it were not for His mercy and grace daily I would generally either be in unbelief or undone, both of those things occur too often for me to belief I am truly “decent”.

    I was raised in a very rigid legalistic wife abusing church, I’ve seen that up close. I’ve been pretty close to where you are, and was shown how my victimhood was a trap that I couldn’t escape on my own.

  • smrnda

    I don’t really consider myself a victim as, despite being disabled I’m pretty affluent and grew up in very affluent surroundings and learned a highly valuable skill (I develop commercial AI applications and I’ve been programming since I was about 9.)

    In some sense, I’m a victim of lousy genetics, but that’s been solved with medication and legislation, products of modernity.

    I’m a ‘decent person’ but that’s easy when you’re privileged.

  • Lori

    I’m a ‘decent person’ but that’s easy when you’re privileged.

    Available evidence would seem to argue against this. Many a privileged person clearly finds it very difficult to be decent.

  • smrnda

    I should add that there’s probably some point of diminishing benefit, and then you get a sharp decline.

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    God judges on a sliding scale.

    But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.
    (Luk 12:48)

  • P J Evans

    God judges on a sliding scale.

    And you’ve slid right off the low end of it.

  • Lori

    I was raised in a very rigid legalistic wife abusing church, I’ve seen that up close.

    This is not just your past. You blame rape victims for getting raped. Whatever church you’re currently in is an abusing church, if for no other reason than because you’re in it.

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    Show my precisely where I blamed rape victims. You are talking out your ass, per usual.

  • http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

    Considering you don’t seem to know what the term “rape culture” implies…

    Let me spell it out for you.

    Rape culture is:

    1. Assuming that women are all lying when they say they were raped.
    2. Assuming that how a woman dresses has any bearing on the culpability of a man in raping her.*
    3. Assuming that if a woman has at any time consented to sex with anyone, that implies she asked to be raped.
    4. Assuming that gender-essentialist constructions of identity of men and women are valid, with emphasis on the idea that men can’t control themselves around women and yet are also designated protectors of women.**
    5. That normalizing a certain frequency of rape incidences is a socially necessary trade-off to maintain existing power structures, such as tolerating the tendency of men to use badgering, nagging and hectoring as ways to lower resistance to having sex and also in failing to deal with the issue of prison rape plus using the implied threat of prison rape as a crime prevention and social control tool.

    —-
    * Shiftercat blew this one to pieces when she pointed out that rape incidence rates don’t spike in the summer when women on average wear less clothing.
    ** How interesting that sisters and mothers and daughters are supposed to be protected by men related to them even though men aren’t supposed to be trustable around hot chicks. This implies that a brother could rape a sister, which – surprise, surprise – does actually happen.

  • http://blog.trenchcoatsoft.com Ross

    Hey dumbfuck, saying “Women could avoid rape if they just dressed modestly and stayed under the lordship of a man to protect them” is victim blaming even though you don’t use the exact words “It is the victim’s fault”.

    People have this thing called “reading comprehension”, it isn’t cute or clever to claim you didn’t victim blame just because you avoided using the exact words.

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    Only in a sick fevered mind is offering advice on how to minimize risk to people before they are even victims “victim blaming”. You people are seriously overflowing with bullshit.

  • http://blog.trenchcoatsoft.com Ross

    Since your advice does not reduce risk, either you’re a moron, or you are lying about your reasons. Which is it?

  • Lori
  • Lori

    For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it

    This is not actually a true statement. Doesn’t that make you wonder at all?

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    I don’t think Paul was referring to perverts. He said men, not reprobates.

  • Lori

    So now you’re claiming flat out to know the mind of God and you’re pulling a No True Scotsman on Paul’s behalf, like he needs your help. You’ve certainly got an ego on you.

  • http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

    Given that there is ample proof that husbands, even Christian ones, don’t “love their wives as their own bodies”, what purpose does it serve to quote the verse?

    And is it from the King James?

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    I would die for any number of people, my wife included. I also exhort my brothers in Christ to do likewise. What “folks” were you thinking of?

  • http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

    Would you serve in the military under the current US President?

  • Lori

    I don’t believe you. I don’t believe that someone who so clearly has so little regard for women actually loves one in any meaningful sense or exhorts other people to love women in any meaningful sense.You may talk a macho game about how you’d die for your wife, but that’s just hot air.

  • smrnda

    I would also *totally be on the ball* in the event of a zombie invasion. It’s easy to be brave about situations that aren’t going to actually come up.

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    I have been in those situations, I also happen to be a decent swimmer and am not afraid of cold water and the gasp reflex. Just because YOU are sheltered doesn’t mean everyone is.

  • smrnda

    I’ve actually had to physically fight for my life in several situations, and I’m very small (5’1″ and 105 lbs.) and am legally blind, and actually disarmed someone with a gun. So when some guy talks about the whole ‘dying for his wife’ – sometimes there isn’t a guy around to do the dying for you.

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    Near my house there is a swift glacier fed river that Aleyska uses in the summer to demonstrate to workers how fast they will become incapacitated and die if the fall in it (the Tran-Alaska Pipeline spans it). I saw a drunk man fall nearly 30′ from the rail into that river one day in late October (slush in the water cold). I decided to go in after him from the shore and pull him out. I was completely prepared to die, although I had enough confidence to believe that I wouldn’t. I’ve been there before and since.

  • John Grotenhuis

    That’s nice. And I wouldn’t hesitate to die for my sisters. Or for a stranger, possibly.

    But you know what? I can’t be physically present everywhere at once, and neither can you, and some people don’t even need our protection. Why don’t we both focus on making the world a safer and better place for women and the disenfranchised in general instead of flexing our machissimo?

    Also. You can physically protect someone and that takes bravery. But not every form of oppression is physical, and not every rapist is violent- some are just emotionally abusive and manipulative.

  • Guest

    So let’s invert nature and make every man a villain that needs to be constrained from his “worst angels”. The enterprise itself is contraindicated. You are not going to transform the nature of the world, you are not going to make it safe because it is fundamentally unsafe. There will always be monsters.

    Yet, if I minister to a young man by coaching him, mentoring him, bringing him to Christ who was predisposed to psychopathy how many rapes may I have stopped? Making a society that hates boys, and ours does, medicates them and tries to emasculate them to make the “world a safer and better place for women” is in fact doing just the opposite. I see in some of the boys a rage, a hatred that our culture has instilled that if not diffused is going to bring grief. Stop drugging them, labeling masculine boys as bullies, telling them to stop behaving like boys and making a society that has no use for their interests and assets.

    Want to make a rapist, have a boy raised by a single feminist mother and send him to public school with no masculine role models, your odds will be way higher.

    Oops, I thought you were smrnda. Oh well, I’ll let the comment stand.

  • http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino
  • John Grotenhuis

    So on the off chance I have (or more likely under the circumstances, adopt) a son, it is “making him a villain” to explain how informed consent works and to tell him not to treat women as inferiors or property? To not assume women owe him anything because of his masculinity? I’d think that’s less making him a villain and more “raising him to not be awful”.

    Also “emasculation” is hardly a problem in our culture- unless by that you mean the fact that our sons are less often being raised to think “smear the queer” is a national sport or that acting, music, and dance are just for apostles of Greek Love (god damn I love being enough of a nerd to use that).

    …Also by your logic, if my boyfriend and I have a son he should be much less likely to rape than the son of a man and woman in a household where the man is usually away on business trips?

  • Guest

    Oh, you’re one of the protected variety. My bad. You claim to know God?

    Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet. And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
    (Rom 1:21-32)

  • http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

    “Protected” variety? What the hell does that even mean?

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    He can mug on about the fact that masculine boys are being repressed while concealing his schadenfreude and pretend that it’s all cool.

  • John Grotenhuis

    My boyfriend is into mixed martial arts and we’re fond of gritty crime novels and ridiculously violent thrillers. I’m not traditionally masculine but I have absolutely nothing against masculinity. I just happen to think women are people and we should treat them that way.

    (Also, implying dance is not masculine? For shame.)

  • http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

    Are you just spouting word-salad or does that actually have a meaning?

  • Lori

    It means something. I means what pretty much all IAL’s posts have meant—IAL is a horrible person who hides behind “thus saith the Lord” to excuse what a nasty piece of work he is.

  • John Grotenhuis

    Even if that wasn’t horribly offensive, quoted away from its original context, and written in the first century at a time when understanding of human sexuality was not as solid as it is now that verse doesn’t particularly account for the existence of a bisexual person. I haven’t “left women”, I just happen to enjoy my relationship with a man.

    (Also personally I think you’re just jealous cuz my boyfriend’s so cute so neener neener neener).

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    Oh my, the poor sodomite is offended? What will we ever do? The whole Bible is out of context by your standard, I wonder what that means? I think it means turn or burn.

  • http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

    Your language is abusive and you should be ashamed of yourself.

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    Yeah, according to the “moral” atheist who likes to gang up belittle and intolerantly mock anyone they please. Spare me your moral indignation.

    Oh no, the protected class has been “abused” poor poor dears!

    If Scarlet here can sodomize his boyfriend and call himself a Christian I don’t suppose that God is on his fainting coach over me calling him a hypocrite and a Sodomite.

  • http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

    You’re not required to keep hanging around here. Out there in the big broad United States of America you can easily sink into the comfortable socio-cultural milieu which implicitly grants to your religious faith the imprimatur of primacy and gives it succour and protection even to the point of placing “In God We Trust” on your currency.

    In short, you’re not being ganged up on except by your own choice and furthermore, you have as much “protection” as the “protected class” you bemoan and bewail and call sodomites.

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    Tell that to Russia, the poor dears are hitting the fainting couches because they can’t rub their crotches in the worlds faces during the Winter Olympics. Everyone has to have their face rubbed in it, did you miss that part? You shouldn’t have, they recently started teaching it in elementary school.

  • http://anonsam.wordpress.com/ AnonymousSam

    If acknowledging the existence and human needs and hopes and fears of homosexual people is “rubbing their crotches in the world’s faces,” then heterosexuality has been spurting on mankind for countless generations. I also think you missed the part where Putin has given implicit permission for people to slander and murder homosexual people. Yes, fainting couches indeed. How dare people want to be treated equally and not murdered. You fucking Antichrist.

  • dpolicar

    Just so I’m clear: when I married my husband, did that rub anyone’s face in my crotch?

    If so, then yes, everyone has to have their faces rubbed in our crotches, just as everyone has had their faces rubbed in the crotches of the straight majority for thousands of years.

    It’s called equality.

  • John Grotenhuis

    Actually I prefer the- oh wait, you’re not actually interested in details of my long-distance relationship’s sex life? Just looking for cheap words to throw at me?

    Darling, don’t talk to me about hypocrisy. Scroll up the page and all we have from you is condemnations of feminism coupled by your juvenile insistence that you know how to protect and are concerned for women.

    Also? J-E-A-L-O-U-S.

  • http://blog.trenchcoatsoft.com Ross

    The bible is about love. Making it be about love is not taking it out of context. Using it as a kugel to spread your own personal bigotry is.

    And since John hasn’t shown any sign of being full of pride, having too much food, or undisturbed peace, nor has he copped to failure to help the poor and needy, I don’t see how he can be called a sodomite.

    Now, there’s someone in this conversation who’s so proud that his very handle claims to speak for God and who’s railed against attempts to help those in need. But it isn’t John Grotenhuis.

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    How much of the first chapter of Romans did you need to wipe away the shame?

  • http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

    Oh, so you were one of those people who loudly proclaimed AIDS as God’s punishment for gay/bisexual people.

    You’re a class act.

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    You’re a class dipshit. Calling people on assumptions they haven’t made while making them ALL THE TIME.

  • http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

    Really?

    You’re the one who explicitly referred to Romans, which includes this:

    [26] For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. Their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural,
    [27] and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in their own persons the due penalty for their error.

    It’s right there.

    Dipshit.

  • http://anonsam.wordpress.com/ AnonymousSam

    How familiar are you with Romans 2:1?

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    How familiar are you with Romans 2:2? Or 1 Corinthians 6?

  • http://anonsam.wordpress.com/ AnonymousSam

    Romans 2:3. Luke 13:1-9.

  • http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

    Also, on the heels of that, Romans 14.

    [10] Why do you pass judgment on your brother? Or you, why do you despise your brother? For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of God

    As one example.

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    Is someone hear my “brother”? I think they would have to be in Christ for that to be the case.

    Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God. All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.
    (1Co 6:9-12)

  • http://anonsam.wordpress.com/ AnonymousSam

    You are no one’s neighbor.

  • John Grotenhuis

    It must really suck for you that you’re an “Abuser of mankind”, then? You’ve done nothing but insult, belittle, and deride everyone who comes in contact with you.

    God is Laughing indeed.

  • Lori

    citation needed

  • smrnda

    You seem pretty ignorant and you’ve created a straw-version of a world that exists only in your imagination and your persecution delusions.

    “Masculine boys” labelled as bullies? Yeah, totally, beating up other kids in school is good behavior and should be encouraged. Masculinity MUST be vile, violent, aggressive and status obsessed. Men *are always on the prowl for sex and only fear of hellfire can stop them.* You think feminists hate men? You’ve got a pretty low opinion of what men must be like.

    Also, keep in mind that there exist other places in the world where people don’t ascribe to the same ideas about what’s essentially ‘masculine’ – you don’t see the same macho antics in many East Asian countries, for example.

  • http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

    So would you serve in the military under the current US President?

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    Nope. Not him or any of the rest.

  • http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

    At least you’re consistent, although with that “die for” thing you’re obviously selective about who you’ll do it for.

  • Lori

    Saving people from drowning. Counseling rape and abuse victims and accidental family killers. Cleaning up accident scenes. Preaching to feminists. You are truly a Renaissance man.

  • http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

    Who was that person that seemed to have done everything and a half and was like a smarter version of Chris Hadrick who could think and talk in complete sentences?

  • Lori

    I can’t remember his ID, but I know who you’re talking about.

    On the internet no one can tell if you’re a dog, but everyone can tell if you’re an ass.

  • http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

    Rowdy was the guy’s name.

  • Lori

    I still give him half credit for not claiming to have been a SEAL.

  • FearlessSon

    If he was a SEAL, would he have been the entertaining kind that is trained to bounce a beach ball on its nose in exchange for fishes?

  • Lori

    Sadly, no. Although if pressed the military type SEAL could probably do it. Those guys tend to be hella coordinated :)

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    Thanks, now I won’t be responding to you.

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    Yes, it is the KJV.

    As I stated earlier some people are more sheltered than others.And I have volunteered as a youth leader in an Alaskan Native village for 5 years, as a USA youth hockey coach for 8 seasons, as a medic and a driver for the local EMS service for 5 years. I built my own house, chicken coop greenhouse. I was specifically asked what I did and I gave a specific answer to the expected insipid response by troll girl.

    I also have a degree AND I completed studies for ordination. I suspect the breadth of my experience has something to do with living in a rural area most of my life and not having somebody around to always bail me and my loved ones out. Or it could be that I’m not living the life of an urban/suburban weeny.

  • http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

    Well, ain’t you just the bee’s knees.

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    I was answering direct questions, but that doesn’t mean you have to let up on being a smart ass.

  • smrnda

    Yeah, us urban people just lie on the ground and do nothing. Nice way to stereotype – how would you take it if someone said rural people are culturally illiterate and have no idea what cultures other than their own are like, and that they believe all sorts of false nonsense about what life is like since they have such limited experiences and that they are unable to understand perspectives people who aren’t just like them? That they substitute ‘just so stories’ and gut reactions for well-though out positions on issues? I don’t think you’d like that much, now would you?

    Now, I wouldn’t say that since I don’t think it’s true across the board, but you do seem to think that you’ve got the best advice for all of us. As a city-dweller who understands that not everybody is exactly like me, I’m immune to the belief that the ‘simple answers’ I got when I was young work for everyone.

    Civilization is not compatible with self-reliance. Rural economies would go nowhere if there weren’t densely populated urban areas that need the stuff rural areas produce. Living in cities has shown me that self-reliance is a complete fiction, which has made me appreciate others more.

    Your ‘experience’ seems to make you think you have all the answers, even on issues (like rape) where you really don’t have adequate facts but are just working from tired cliches.

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    When I get criticized because I actually go out and do things for myself what do you suppose my reaction might be? I realize after reading some of the comments here just how rich and full my life must be. All of the real world experiences I have had.

    That’s a pick-me-up, I always get so glum because I feel like I’m leading a dull life. It’s good to know that I’m not the worst off.

  • Lori

    So you think that because the rest of us aren’t bragging the way you’ve been that we haven’t done anything or had varied life experiences like you? If so, you are delusional in addition to being a braggart.

  • http://anonsam.wordpress.com/ AnonymousSam

    Yes, I suspect it is comforting to imagine how much better you are than other people, but it’s not Christian behavior in the slightest, nor is it objectively true. Your experiences have been different, not superior, and your personal effects are pretty distasteful. Thumping yourself on the chest while proclaiming your superior morality, secure in the knowledge that the harm and pain it causes need never touch you unless you want to make yourself look empathic and magnanimous with passing acknowledgement and a puerile show of comfort and understanding? That’s what makes you inferior.

    As an urban dweller who was born and raised in the countryside, I’ve seen most of the country and a chunk of Canada through dozens of road trips east and west. I’ve lived in abject poverty, I’ve worked more than twice full time hours at less than part time minimum wage pay and I’ve had to choose between filling my stomach now or having something nutritious in a couple of days. I’ve left everything I had behind and crossed thousands of miles without a safety net. I’ve been a suspect in a criminal investigation based purely on my profile. I’d say I have a lot of experience packed into my thirty years, but that doesn’t make me superior to a person who has lived in comfort their entire lives, it just gives me a tool set which allows me to understand people from a much different perspective.

    Your need to sort the world in hierarchical categories of obedience is childish and stunted. I have seen Paradise — it is antithetical to your worldview and you would never be happy there. There is only one place where you will find the comfort you enjoy in this world; Dante Alighieri made a name for himself in describing it.

  • smrnda

    I’ve had a lot of different experiences, but I haven’t become so arrogant as to presume that people who don’t live in places like mine are ‘weenies’ nor do I believe that I necessarily have the answers to everyone’s problems just because I’ve done X, Y, Z that most people haven’t done.

    I mean, if I said ‘you can save money by taking the bus’ I know that if you live in a remote area that’s not going to work. If I told someone that it’s a good idea to live in a few different countries to gain perspective, I know that sounds elitist. I don’t appreciate men telling me how to avoid getting raped, so I don’t do things like tell members of other groups how to avoid problems common to that groups – I wouldn’t offer ‘advice’ to Black teenage males on how to avoid getting hassled by the cops, since that would probably be patronizing and obnoxious of me.

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    I was referring specifically to the people who gave me the equivalent of “good story bro”. You broadened the scope of my comment all on your own there.

    Offering any type of common sense is patronizing and obnoxious in an era that scorns moral or experiential authority.

    “In a time of universal deceit – telling the truth is a revolutionary act.”

    ~George Orwell

  • http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

    Yeah, I “cool story bro”-ed you, because I don’t need to put the equivalent of fruit salad on my chest showing off all that I’ve done.

    The room was full of men and women who had done far less than Kresh, wearing medals and ribbons that would make it seem as if they had done far more, until a chestful of medals didn’t mean anything anymore. Let everyone else wear fruit salad on their chests. People didn’t have to know about every commendation Kresh had ever received. Kresh knew what he had done, and that was enough.

    Isaac Asimov’s Inferno, by Roger MacBride Allen.

  • smrnda

    Invoking Orwell doesn’t make your false advice based on false premises true.

    “Common sense, moral and experiential authority?” Seriously, you think that you, as a man, actually have great advice for women on not just how to avoid being raped, but how to avoid getting blamed for it? I call that the height of arrogance, like a white person telling a Black person how to avoid being the victim of white racism. The fact that women are still raped and blamed for being raped while wearing burkas in places where women rarely venture out of the house without a male escort prove your advice is bullshit. It does not work in the real world, period.

    However, you might want to look up the ‘don’t be that guy’ campaign in Vancouver- it actually reduced rape and involved dispelling the rape myths you desperately cling to.

  • Guest

    Oh, in the name of all that is holy, do you not have the right to invoke Orwell.

  • http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

    So, would you serve in the military under the current US President?

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    Lack of wifely submission (goaded by feminists) is eating a hole right through this:

    For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.
    (Eph 5:23-24)

    and this

    For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones. For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh. This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.
    (Eph 5:30-32)

    But feminist “Christians” claim to have all of this sorted out, there is NO mystery in this verse for them.

  • Lori

    Once again making my point.

    Also undermining your own by quoting that inconvenient bit about how the topic is actually Christ and the Church, not marriage.

  • smrnda

    The mystery to me is why a passage where a single and celibate man is mostly using marriage as an analogy is taken to be a textbook on marriage by so many.

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    Because he was what we believers like to call “inspired”.

  • http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

    Are you quoting from the King James?

  • Lori

    What does Paul’s inspiration have to do with the fact that believers like you misuse what he wrote? You aren’t inspired.

  • John Grotenhuis

    Well, there might be a mystery but it it doesn’t follow the rules of Knox’s Decalogue, so I’ve given up trying to solve it and decided to focus on not being an asshole to women and assuming that all teachings from a first-century culture regarding the roles of husband and wife are equally applicable to my own instead.

    I’m pretty sure that the detective didn’t do it, though.

  • Carstonio

    That’s really a limited form of justice that accepted the helplessness of women in that society as a given. I would have preferred that Jesus condemned the artificial structures and customs that required women to be claimed by families to survive. Imagine if he called for, say, women having the right to own property and to be ordained as rabbis.

  • FearlessSon

    I agree, but consider the context of the society in which the message was being preached. The idea that men and women were not simply equal but fully interchangeable in their social roles was a simply alien concept to practically everyone at the time. Sexual division of labor had been around long before humans began to record history, and as far as anyone was concerned that was just the way things were. It took literally thousands more years of social and technological development before this concept was even conceivable, and even now it still has not completely displaced the older one.

    I like to think of it as being fair for its day, but we have come a long way since then.

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    And after all those many years of genetic selection for sexual dimorphism to make good use of those divergent roles we wouldn’t expect to see any psychological differences between men and women? That seems like a stretch to me. The roles of estrogen, progesterone and testosterone are going to affect day to day behavior in divergent ways wouldn’t you say?

    Looking at the traditional “testosterone” induced activities such as risk-taking in adolescent boys (especially in the presence of girls) we can see divergent behaviors. These masculine behaviors are what our feminist society would like to repress (for the sake of safety and security, not the least of which is for the girls) and control. To what end that repression?

  • John Grotenhuis

    What the fuck does teaching our children about informed consent have to do with curbing risk-taking behavior? How do you class “don’t have sex with someone unless they are willing and completely understand what they are consenting to” have to do with health and safety regulations?

    I mean, shit, I guess I shouldn’t teach kids that murder or theft are wrong- even petty theft.

  • smrnda

    Maybe you need to get out of your rural hamlet and see the world. You should observe how the type of macho, rough masculinity isn’t normal in many nations (try visiting Japan or China) so the idea that males are ‘naturally’ aggressive risk-takers doesn’t seem to hold water.

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    Yeah, I’ve lived in an apartment long enough thanks. You might read Dmitry Orlov’s “The Five Stages of Collapse” if you think that we are going to have a steady chain of unbroken successes leading to a progressive utopia. I subscribe to what I think was a principle in Asimov fiction where human society has limited elasticity and things will only stretch so far before they rebound in a highly atavistic manner.* Another demonstration of this principle is Strauss and Howe’s concept of secular cycles found in their book “The Fourth Turning”. Also Tainter’s “Collapse of Complex Societies” heavily implies that their are limits to population, centralization, specialization, structural improvements and social stratification. In my opinion the Seneca “effect” will apply at the point of rebound, that is:

    It would be some consolation for the feebleness of our selves and our works if all things should perish as slowly as they come into being; but as it is, increases are of sluggish growth, but the way to ruin is rapid.”
    Lucius Anneaus Seneca, Letters to Lucilius, n. 91

    Men will only be willing to go so far before their dissent creates a rupture, I believe that this dissent can be voluntary or (more likely) involuntary. At some point monkey wrenching what actually has worked is going to make things STOP working in catastrophic ways.

    *(Anyone that has a problem adopting concepts from science fiction should probably just go ahead and burn their Huxley, Orwell, and Bradbury collections. Oh the irony.)

  • Lori

    Yeah, I’ve lived in an apartment long enough thanks.

    Not rural =/= Apartment

    You might read Dmitry Orlov’s “The Five Stages of Collapse” if you think that we are going to have a steady chain of unbroken successes leading to a progressive utopia.

    No one here has said that they think this. You’re arguing with yourself. You’re like Grandpa Simpson yelling at a cloud.

    I subscribe what I think was a principle in Asimov fiction where human society has limited elasticity and things will only stretch
    so far before they rebound in a highly atavistic manner.

    fiction

  • smrnda

    I don’t typically go to novelist, rather than say, sociologists or historians, for information on what does or does not work in the real world. As a person who develops technology for a living, the belief that it’s made civilization more fragile is actually false – it’s just that people forget back in the ‘simpler’ days, you grew all your own food but half your kids died.

    I have read science fiction, but I don’t particularly consider it a meaningfully predictive enterprise. Authors work from their own biases – a lot of science fiction writers seem to think technology will lead to greater disconnection between people, whereas that’s really not been the case, since their imaginations weren’t quite up to the task of seeing how things would really turn out.

    Let’s take the crisis of overpopulation – it’s pretty big in sci fi, but it’s because nobody really thought that birth rates would slow down as much as they had. Orwell kept freaking out over the opposite (declining birth rate) in many essays, but we now see that immigration solves that problem while solving problems of overpopulation in the countries immigrants come from.

    The contention that things in the past ‘worked’ and that we are messing with success is just a projection by privileged people who fear a world where the less privileged might have the same rights as them. The aristocrats always try to find ways to argue that unless the masses are ‘kept down’ things will fall aprt.

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    Yeah, and what investment do you suppose I have in Monsanto, ADM, Carghill and the like? I’m not an aristocrat and I am not really hot on the social order or the fixes that are proposed. Revolution is a great principle but it rarely works out well for anyone, least of all the oppressed, the weak, or the infirm.

  • smrnda

    I’m suggesting some of the people you quote-mine were members of privileged classes frightened of social change. I’m also stating that your particular distaste for feminism may be male privileged-distress.

    Revolution/reform is a messy process I won’t generalize over, but some countries (the UK, Canada, Australia) seemed to avoid bloody revolutions in asserting independence and in obtaining rights for their citizens. The wars fought in the US such as the ‘coal miner’s wars’ were definitely violent, but overall, their result has been positive. We no longer face the prospect of indentured servitude in the ‘company town.’

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    My problem is that I identify with the minority (strait is the gate and all) and so when I see a mob forming I tend to start looking for what the bright shining gew-gaw is that has so many people transfixed. That may appear like I side with the elites, but more often than not I believe it is precisely the elite that have that gew-gaw on a string.

    Right now if the Bible clearly says X, there is an ever increasing number that say that it says anything BUT X. They then claim that anyone who actually adheres to X or calls to stop doing Y is hateful while at the same time saying that they believe the Bible just not everywhere it clearly says X. That is a bandwagon I’m not going to jump onto, the more people that do the more I’m convinced it is the broad way that leads to destruction.

    For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
    (Joh 3:17-21)

    Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
    (Mat 5:48)

  • smrnda

    “Gew gaw” – please you comprehensible adult words that have clear meanings and not weird slang. If you want to communicate, please write coherently.

    If your suggesting that elites are just creating a sense of injustice to cause chaos, and that when say, workers go on strike it’s all part of some conspiracy and that their bosses really want them to strike, that slave owners really want slave rebellions, then you’re pulling out an unlikely and implausible conspiracy rather than going with the much more likely option to justify your indifference to social justice. Every single thing you write is just meant to say ‘I’m not defending the status quo! I’m just being moral!

    The problem is the Multiple Axie of Identity problem. You say you are A True Christian, which is a minority, therefore you are oppressed by ‘the world.’ The problem is that that identity isn’t really particularly relevant to the level of privilege you have in society. I happen to be a software engineer, which is a tiny minority, but nobody who sees me is going to register that – I’m just ‘some woman’ to them.

  • http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

    “Gew gaw” – please you comprehensible adult words that have clear
    meanings and not weird slang. If you want to communicate, please write
    coherently.

    To be fair it was a somewhat common slang phrase used in the fifties through the seventies and meant the same thing as “doohickey”, “thingy”, “whatnot”, “doodad”.

  • dpolicar

    Also, Google has no trouble providing an explanation.

  • smrnda

    Though my parents are from the States, I grew up in China and India and was born in the mid 80s, so I guess I missed that one.

  • P J Evans

    It was old-fashioned even in the 60s.

  • smrnda

    So… it’s a nearly meaningless vague word like a few other nearly meaningless vague words?

  • http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

    Okay, seriously? You tried twitting him on something that really wasn’t germane to the discussion, and now you’re trying to double down by twitting me over, fundamentally, easily googleable English slang terms.

    I may not like GIL any more than you do, but you’re not helping your case by trying on this sort of thing.

  • http://anonsam.wordpress.com/ AnonymousSam

    Particularly when there are plenty of female and intersex aggressive risk-takers and males who are neither.

    Someone here once said something to the effect of “men and women have more in common than men have with men and women have with women.”

  • http://blog.trenchcoatsoft.com Ross

    Don’t you know? Asian men have all been feminized by overconsumption of soy products. (This is a real thing moron complementarians like our local batch actually believe)

  • P J Evans

    And in some cultures, men are sensitive, poetic types, and women are logical.

  • Carstonio

    A forced division of labor based on sexual identity is fundamentally unfair in any society at any level of technological development. I might understand if the society believed that, say, its survival depended on requiring motherhood for all women of childbearing age. (And even that requirement seems to assume that most women would not freely choose motherhood.) But that shouldn’t justify other rules such as barring women whose children are grown from holding leadership roles in the society.

    You seem to be suggesting that a strict sexual division of labor is automatic for all pretechnological societies in any era, and that sexual equality is possible only with a certain degree of social and technological development. With the type of society we see in the Old Testament, women don’t even receive all that much benefit in security in exchange for freedom. Instead it reminds me of a slave society where institutions and resources go to propping up a small elite, except in this case the husbands get most of the benefit.

    I’m only describing my impressions since I’m not an anthropologist, and it would be saddening indeed if women in any pretechnological society were doomed to being controlled by men.

  • FearlessSon

    From what I recall of anthropology class, a sexual division of labor is extremely common for a lot of societies, and has more to do with our common respective pasts of having been nomadic hunter-gatherer groups.

    A hunter-gatherer society tends to have a lot of social equality, by virtue of simply not having much in the way of material resources other than what the people themselves can carry with them. The way such a society feeds itself is by hunting and gathering food from the local environment (hence the designation) and they often travel over a wide range of territory to keep from exhausting the local food supply, especially when following migrating game.

    The reason for dividing labor along sex lines has to do with the practicalities of birthing and raising children in this environment. Generally it falls to women to look after small children for the simple fact that men are physically incapable of breastfeeding, and with no refrigeration there is no way to extract and store breast milk. A mother must be present to feed infants, because the infants can eat nothing else, and if the infants starve the entire society dies off.

    So if the mothers have to stay by the children, and the children need to be kept out of danger, that means that they tend to be given low-risk tasks, like tending the camp or weaving baskets (if they even have that technology.) Mothers with children old enough to take instruction will usually go out gathering herbs, fruits, berries, etc. with the kids helping.

    By contrast, hunting requires no children to be present mainly because it requires enforced discipline on the part of the hunting party (“Be bery, bery, quiet, I’m hunting wabbits”) which rules out mothers with children and most pregnant women (try chasing prey with something in your belly the size and weight of a bowling ball and the fragility of an egg.) This tends to rule out most women in general, since the attrition experienced by the group (lots of people dying from natural and unnatural causes and no medicine to speak of) means that the only way to keep the population stable is for the adult women to have lots of babies.

    Now granted, this is just a practical and situation arrangement for a society living in these kinds of conditions (and most cultures start this way, it is only after changing to other states that more complex elements begin to show up.) However, the thing about humans is that patterns which have been in place for generations tend to continue well past the reason they were established in the first place. It becomes tradition, a meme that perpetuates for its own sake more than anything else. As societies become more complex, their mores and traditions tend to become codified and enshrined in their structure, and you get issues like we have today.

  • Carstonio

    That makes sense. I admit I bristle at the idea of condemning people from birth to societal roles based on sexual identity, but that’s to be expected when survival is at a premium. My real objection is for condemning people from birth to a place in a sexual identity hiearachy. I know of no broad societal benefit from requiring women to live under the authority of men, as if women naturally rebel against bearing children. From what you describe, gender inequality seemed to arise after the hunter-gatherer period.

  • http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

    Yeah, I’ve heard that too – that societies that evolve to become semi or fully agricultural tend to experience a shifting of gender roles that imbalances, generally against women. Industrial society should have corrected that imbalance, but as FS points out, the inertia of human custom can often make it very hard to utilize the social benefits a change of societal sustenance offers.

  • FearlessSon

    I get the impression that gender inequality in a society tends to increase as material inequality increases as they become more settled. Settling allows more accumulation of resources, once a society figures out how to make staying in one place livable (figuring out how to cultivate plants or domesticate animals is a big part of that.) But as resources accumulate, inequalities tend to increase. There is no perfectly equitable way of distributing limited resources (different needs and contributions and all that) and you start to see some stratification as the society grows in both size and wealth.

    The reason women kind of get screwed by this more than the men is because for the most part they are still primarily the ones weening infants and keeping the older children out of harm’s way (these often go hand-in-hand for mothers who have several children of different ages, weening the youngest and watching the eldest.) While they are doing that, the men tend to have more opportunities to go out and gather material wealth, especially when in competition with other men (and when certain resources are limited successfully competing means the difference between your family having access to that resource and it not.) Over time this tends to give way to men seeing themselves as the ones “deserving” of those gains, and the women become marginalized.

    This is not the case with all men, obviously, but the thing is you get a few people who have an excessive “alpha” type of personality, having and seeking power and influence, and they tend to dictate the social structure for everyone else. Generally, the worst of these do not really care about anyone but themselves or if that social system is suitable to others and just impose it. Sadly, we are still living with some people like that these days, and you have seen what they tend to do to society. Fewer are as invested in status quo then those already smugly at the top.

  • http://blog.trenchcoatsoft.com Ross

    The thing is, if it’s simply a matter of what’s a good idea to keep the community surviving, you don’t actually need laws or social pressure or big wood clubs to enforce it. Whne the babies start crying, the mothers are going to congregate near them, and when there’s a choice of chasing down a gazelle or weaving a basket, the heavily pregnant woman is going to sit down and reach for the hemp — and if the occasional woman fails to have children and turns out ot be good at whacking antelope, or the occasional man has particularly nimble fingers and wants to make baskets, that’s pretty much okay. And calling it “inequality” puts the cart before the horse. The inequality comes up later, when those tribes start learning about the advantage of domesticating animals and raising crops, and some percentage of the menfolk start grousing about how much better it was back when the women stayed back at the cave making baskets and babies, and then they start introducing terms like “femme couvert” and writing holy books where the mitochondrial progenitor is personally responsible for the presence of evil in the world in order to do what angry old men have done at any point in history: use the force of law to recreate inferior conditions from the past in spite of the fact that the situations which made them necessary no longer exist.

  • Carstonio

    That’s part of my point. I’m defining inequality as laws or customs or norms that keep the sexes in certain roles. I agree that these would be unnecessary or beside the point in a society where the roles were really necessary for survival. I wonder if the stories that claimed that “the mitochondrial progenitor is personally responsible for the presence of evil in the world” originated because many men blamed women for the loss of the hunter-gatherer life – a Stone Age version of the sexist husband grousing about his wife not letting him stay out with the guys.

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    So with all the women screaming “WAAAH RAPE!” from Atheism+ to Sweden in the Western world you are suggesting that women are NOT helpless? Really?

  • AnonaMiss

    Pretty sure saying any Christian woman is helpless is blasphemy.

    Yet Christian women are raped, and are entitled to accuse their attackers, and seek justice according to God’s law.

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    “Fear not those that can kill the body”

  • Lori

    Driscoll is not pro-submission for Discoll. He’s all for it for the ladies though.

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    You could have fooled me. You haven’t heard a pro-submission message if you think that is what he is preaching. I think that most of the “Church” has taken to tickling feminist ears and that’s what people are used to. Guys like him are the reason we have the feminist rot in the “Church” in the first place.

  • Lori

    Feminist rot? You mean treating women as if they’re human beings and have purpose and value beyond the convenience of their fathers and husbands? I assure you, Driscoll and his ilk are not the reason for that.

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    Human beings? Really? You claim to be a believer?

    If so you should be a new creature in Christ, not identifying with the old nature. I think “human beings” having “purpose and value” in their own right are going straight to Hell.

    “But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.”
    (Isa 64:6)

  • Lori

    You claim to be a believer?

    No. What gave you the idea that I did?

    I think “human beings” having “purpose and value” in their own right are going straight to Hell.

    Well, that’s special.

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    I guess because you were chiming in on what constitutes the body of Christ and what constitutes a cult.

    As far as “special”, that’s about how I’d sum up your worldview as well, so I guess we’re even. For now.

  • Lori

    We’ll never be even. Your worldview is a small, mean, nasty little thing. Whatever satisfaction you get out of imagining yourself better than others is the only reward you’re ever going to get for it. You’re apparently enjoying that, so I guess that’s all that needs to be said about it.

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    Yeah, that’s about as close to an “I’m rubber, you’re glue” comment I’m going to bother sifting through here.

  • Lori

    It’s not, but I’m not surprised that you think it is. You’ve demonstrated a distinct lack of basic understanding here.

  • Lurker

    Because XKCD is always relevant!
    http://xkcd.com/1139/

  • John Grotenhuis

    I’m a believer. Does that mean I’m allowed to step in and call you out for being creepy?

    “Not identifying with the old nature” doesn’t exactly lend itself to treating large groups of people, sinful or saintly, as if they were second-class disenfranchised citizens with less intrinsic worth than men and requiring them to carry yokes that are too heavy. I think we’re called to do like, the opposite of that. Pretty sure that’s a driving narrative in the New Testament.

    Either that or I’m apparently supposed to be oppressing my family- roughly fifty percent women. And if at that point you’re saying Christianity calls for that, I’d argue that it’s the faith which needs fixing, not feminism.

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    Maybe you should give the world a big group hug. And say “Hi” to Rob Bell for me.

    “Human rights” are a corruption of the Gospel. You want to seek a temporal salvation by marching around and holding a sign, I recommend not bothering calling yourself a believer.

  • John Grotenhuis

    I’ll be sure to mention your impeccable wit, timing, and sense of humor when I do.

    Maybe I should hug the world though. I hear this Jesus guy was big on loving thy neighbor and shit.

  • Lori

    You know what they say about assumptions.

    One does not have to be a believer to recognize a cult and the fact that I’m not a believer doesn’t mean that I don’t have extensive experience with the Christian religion.

  • J_Enigma32

    “I think “human beings” having “purpose and value” in their own right are going straight to Hell.”

    As long as you aren’t there, sunshine, I see no problem with this arraignment.

  • P J Evans

    I think that if GIL were there, it would be Hell.

  • http://anonsam.wordpress.com/ AnonymousSam
  • FearlessSon

    Guys like him are the reason we have the feminist rot in the “Church” in the first place.

    Seriously? I mean, Driscoll is the one complaining about the “feminist rot” you refer to, going on about trying to reverse the “feminization” of Christianity. I have no idea where you are getting this from.

  • smrnda

    Driscoll apparently thinks ‘turn the other cheek’ and ‘those who live by the sword perish by the sword’ (actually said by Jesus!) are too ‘feminine’ so he’s had to invent a new Ultimate Fighter Jesus, since otherwise Jesus was making him feel all pink and flowery.

  • John Grotenhuis

    Mark Driscoll read that one comic Rob Liefeld drew where Jesus physically comes down from the cross to kick Zeus’s ass and thought it was awesome enough to add to the canon.

    (To be fair that particular scene is the one time I’ve ever enjoyed reading a Rob Liefeld book)

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    From his misandric, misanthropic preaching.

    Sure he’s Stoker’s Dracula to feminists in one sense, but his traditional white knightery is classic Sunday morning Evangelical Feminist fare. The word submit is always in air quotes and is hemmed an hawed around like it needs an apology. He’s evil to the radical feminist because the dares word leaves his mouth (like Dobson or Rainey). He’s just a different brand of female pedestalizer than the un-“churched” are accustomed to.

  • AnonaMiss

    Psst – ‘art’ is not a general-purpose old-timey conjugation of ‘to be’. It is specifically the second person singular informal conjugation, and should only be paired with ‘thou’, never with any other pronoun.

    Your handle is basically screaming “I am an idiot” everywhere you post. Just so you know.

  • http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

    Dobby the house-elf would say “I is laughing”. (/random aside)

  • AnonaMiss

    Technically Dobby would say “Dobby is laughing” cause he never uses first person pronouns!

  • dpolicar

    Perhaps God Is Laughing intends to use the same construction.

  • http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

    Winky did occasionally. House-elf grammar is not that rigid, though the biggest universal is that the present tense always conjugates as the third person singular.

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    Well you assume to know the origin of my handle, which you don’t so I’m not dissappointed in the least that your ignorance has brought you to the conclusion that “I am an idiot”.

    Art Laffer is a supply-side economist who worked under Reagan. He is the guy they named the Laffer curve after, I think he is a raging idiot and that the system he evinces is going to collapse in Biblical proportions. Say something in the nature of:

    He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision.
    (Psa 2:4)

    So the whole thing is intended as a neologism based on a man’s name and a Bible verse. Go figure.

  • http://anonsam.wordpress.com/ AnonymousSam

    I’ve just remembered of whom you remind me: the writers of Bob Jones University textbooks, especially the physical science texts.

  • AnonaMiss

    And yet ‘I’ is not contained within any of the things you claim to be referencing.

  • http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

    I also find it absurdly laughable that Art thinks Laffer is the bad guy and yet endorses the kind of socially conservative policies Laffer’s fellow travellers have endorsed as being appropriate to their economically conservative viewpoints. After all, if economic inequality increases and job security decreases, women will bear the brunt of that and have to stay stuck in marriages they’d rather not be in.

    Submit to your husbands, indeed. (>_<)

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    Hey dipshit, why bother discussing complimentarians at all? That sounds like a loser position from the get go for someone as obviously brilliant as you clearly are.

  • http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

    Do you speak to your mother like that? Or your father?

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    My mother and father aren’t dipshits, you are. And before you say that God doesn’t approve, you’re wrong. Do you mother and father approve of you being consumed in the lake of fire?

  • http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

    I don’t care if God approves or doesn’t approve.

    But I’m wondering if your parents would approve you using such foul language or if you would teach your children to use such language.

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    What difference does it make to you? Everything is just a point on the internet to be won. Congrats dipshit, you’ve done skeptics everywhere a great service and you can die and turn to dust with the satisfaction that you won the internet for the day 9/3/2013

  • http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

    Oh, so you’re not leaving? Too bad. It almost seemed like you flounced. If you did, you didn’t stick the flounce.

    For the record…

    What difference does it make to you? Everything is just a point on the internet to be won. Congrats dipshit, you’ve done skeptics everywhere a great service and you can die and turn to dust with the satisfaction that you won the internet for the day 9/3/2013

    TIMESTAMP IN E-MAIL: 10:28 PM (Pacific DST)

    Time now: 6:09 AM. (Pacific DST)

  • http://anonsam.wordpress.com/ AnonymousSam

    There are six things that the Lord hates, seven that are an abomination to him: haughty eyes, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, a heart that devises wicked plans, feet that make haste to run to evil, a false witness who breathes out lies, and one who sows discord among brothers.

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    That would sum up this blog categorically.

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    Which proves what you know about economics if you think a person has to fall on the Marxist/Capitalist spectrum

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    He art laughing doesn’t work either. Thou art laughing does but is silly in another sense and doesn’t begin to convey what I wanted it to. You understand what I meant even though you realized it was faulty grammar so I call that mission accomplished.

    Did you know that you misspelled “anonymous”? Badly?

  • Lori

    Isn’t it awfully early where you are? Shouldn’t you be starting the day out engaging in some feats of rural manliness so that you can go on thinking you’re special?

  • http://shiftercat.livejournal.com/ ShifterCat

    His first task might be dousing his pants. I suspect they are on fire.

  • smrnda

    I agree that supply side economics is a failure, mostly because the wealthy have the least propensity to spend on consumer goods which is the real driver of economic growth – instead, they use money to consolidate ownership, which decreases competition for both wages and prices, leading to stagnation.

    Had to say, I agree with you on something

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    It is debt and credit that are the problem. Debt is always going to increase and the oppressed will become more oppressed and the rich more rich. Debt is the problem, “growing the economy” is the delusional fix.

  • smrnda

    I’d agree, but fixing the money supply is silly since it’s based on a notion of ‘scarcity’ that is false. What we really need is a currency based on the actual quantity of good available for consumption.

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    Scarcity isn’t what is false in my opinion, money covers up the scarcity as it exists. To demonstrate this imagine a scenario where Bill Gates set’s about cornering the market on corn with the billions he has in his possession. The surplus of money and the scarcity of corn would quickly be revealed. Money is a means of trade, what we have is public debt masquerading as money. The whole structure is a fraud balanced on a house of cards.

  • smrnda

    You don’t seem to understand what I’m saying. The actual quantity of resources on the earth are sufficient to provide a decent standard of living to most people in developed nations and a huge boost to those in developing nations. (There may even really be enough food.) The ‘scarcity’ just comes from rich people controlling resource allocation, which is the same as what happens when Chairman Mao controls them only slightly less disastrous.

    Money ought to be scaled based on resources available, and the quantity can increase through increased technology. Having a fixed monetary supply ignores this fact, and enables people to up prices while wages stagnate, locking poor people in poverty with no way out.

    Scarcity of goods is manufactures by those who control resource allocation to maintain power.

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    But they also have erred through wine, and through strong drink are out of the way; the priest and the prophet have erred through strong drink, they are swallowed up of wine, they are out of the way through strong drink; they err in vision, they stumble in judgment. For all tables are full of vomit and filthiness, so that there is no place clean. Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.
    (Isa 28:7-9)

    For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
    (Rom 8:5-8)

    Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters. And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication. And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
    (Rev 14:7-11)

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets. Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
    (Mat 7:12-15)

  • Lori

    Do you follow this scripture? Do you do unto others what you would have them do unto you? If so I assume you want women to bully you and disrespect you, to ignore your legitimate concerns and side with those who attack you. Because that’s what you do to women. The straw feminists that you rail against would, if they actually existed, be giving you what you apparently want. Are you just upset that they don’t exist?

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    Correction is grievous unto him that forsaketh the way: and he that hateth reproof shall die. Hell and destruction are before the LORD: how much more then the hearts of the children of men? A scorner loveth not one that reproveth him: neither will he go unto the wise.
    (Pro 15:10-12)

  • Lori

    You certainly do seem to find correction grievous.

    If the Jesus described in the Bible is truly the final judge of human lives you are facing a very grim future. You are nothing like him. You twist his words to justify your own nastiness. You hold people to a standard you don’t follow. That makes you a hypocrite, and I assume you know what Jesus said to hypocrites. Woe unto you!

    31 “Therefore you are witnesses against yourselves that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. 32 Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers’ guilt. 33 Serpents, brood of vipers! How can you escape the condemnation of hell?

    That’s from Matthew 23

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father’s name, they bear witness of me. But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.
    (Joh 10:25-29)

    And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.
    (Joh 10:5)

  • Lori

    Not everyone who thinks they hear a voice is actually hearing Jesus.

  • phantomreader42

    The voices in your head are not jesus. Seek professional help.

  • J_Enigma32

    I’m quite convinced that him following would require something beyond “copy+paste”, which is all he seems to be capable of doing.

    On the upshot, Ellenjay should be taking notes. This is how Eli and Moishe should be talking in Left Behind. That way, everyone would know how incredibly warped those books are and how incredibly wicked the theology they’re based on is.

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    I like it when people tell me the truth. And I don’t mind having my worldview/paradigm challenged. It doesn’t even bother me that much to have a poster following me around like a yapping dog telling me all the ways I’m stupid in their ignorance.

  • J_Enigma32

    I’m shocked you even know what truth is. I may have to lay down after this revelation… maybe take some smelling salts, help deal with the sudden shock… you understand truth… the world damn near stopped…

  • Lori

    You like it when people say what you want to hear. That’s not the same thing. You very clearly don’t like it when people tell the truth, especially not the truth about you.

  • Lori

    You came here. I am not following you. Stop coming here and you’ll never hear from me again. If I’m a yapping dog then you must like being yapped at, because you’re still here when you have no reason to be.

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    In the mean time, when there were gathered together an innumerable multitude of people, insomuch that they trode one upon another, he began to say unto his disciples first of all, Beware ye of the leaven of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy. For there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; neither hid, that shall not be known. Therefore whatsoever ye have spoken in darkness shall be heard in the light; and that which ye have spoken in the ear in closets shall be proclaimed upon the housetops. And I say unto you my friends, Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do. But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.
    (Luk 12:1-5)

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.
    (Eph 5:22-24)

  • AnonaMiss

    If in Christ there is neither man nor woman, which partner in a marriage is the wife?

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed. For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord.
    (Jas 1:5-7)

  • AnonaMiss

    Sorry, I thought I was asking you, not God. Or do you see no difference?

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    I can’t give you the wisdom you need. I didn’t write the book.

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    This right here, this scoffing is the an evidence of something that you should check out. Do you hate that passage from James talking about the generosity of God so much that all you could think to do was pop off with this snarky comment? And YOU are a believer? Start acting like it instead of trying to win points on the internet.

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things; That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children, To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.
    (Tit 2:3-5)

  • J_Enigma32

    Phew. Thank you for reminding me why I’m an atheist.

    There for a second, I’d forgotten I’d even read the Bible. Now I remember – thanks a bunch!

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    That’s a whole lot better than most of the cohort around here who claim to be Christians, and then say that any portion of the Bible that relates to their sin is being taken out of context.

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away. For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts, Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith. But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as theirs also was.
    (2Ti 3:1-9)

  • Lori

    You’re certainly an expert on a man loving his own self.

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it.
    (Luk 9:23-24)

  • Lori

    You aren’t denying yourself and the only cross you’ve taken up is one you fashioned for yourself. No one is going to make you a martyr, so that doesn’t apply to you either. This is just more of your dishonest self-aggrandizement and we’re already looked at what your book has to say about pride.

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    Yeah, it says that the society you think is so wonderful is going to be destroyed along with those that don’t repent of its ways.

    And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird. For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies. And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues. For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.
    (Rev 18:2-5)

    That’s what my Bible says about pride and the fall of your little mutual admiration society.

  • Lori

    I do not believe for a moment that you have a clue what Revelation means. You misuse the easy stuff. There is no way that you understand the hard stuff.

    That said, go on ahead and go out. We’re not stopping you. You’re the one who is refusing to go. No one is keeping you here.

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    Proud huh?

  • Lori

    Unless you’re talking about yourself and your overblown sense of your own importance and knowledge, my comment has nothing to do with pride. Note that I didn’t claim to have all the answers about Revelation. I merely pointed out that there is absolutely no reason to think you do. That’s not pride, that’s true.

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
    (2Th 2:1-10)

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing? The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying, Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us. He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision. Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure.
    (Psa 2:1-5)

  • http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

    So with all the women screaming “WAAAH RAPE!”

    Just to remind y’all of what “I Art Laughing”/”God Is Laughing” said at one point.

    The sheer unclassy assholish dismissal of the very real concerns of women is just astounding in its magnitude.

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies: These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.
    (Mat 15:19-20)

  • phantomreader42

    So, you are no longer capable of addressing reality, all you can do is copy-and-paste snippets of your precious book of myths in a desperate and futile attempt to pretend you didn’t say the vile shit you said, even when presented with photographic evidence. What a worthless piece of shit you are!

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful. But his delight is in the law of the LORD; and in his law doth he meditate day and night. And he shall be like a tree planted by the rivers of water, that bringeth forth his fruit in his season; his leaf also shall not wither; and whatsoever he doeth shall prosper. The ungodly are not so: but are like the chaff which the wind driveth away. Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous. For the LORD knoweth the way of the righteous: but the way of the ungodly shall perish.
    (Psa 1:1-6)

  • Lori

    Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor
    standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful.

    Since you think we’re sinners doesn’t this mean you should stop hanging around here? Maybe find something better to do with your time? Don’t you have some manly rural chores to do or a drowning swimmer to save or a murder site to clean up or something?

    I imagine your wife needs you to help her with her leg more than we need your input. If you love her so much and care so much about her you should go attend to those needs instead of feeding your ego by spamming a blog with random verses cut & pasted from your “e-sword”.

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.
    (Mar 2:17)

  • Lori

    Jesus was speaking of himself in that verse. You are not Jesus.

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    Here is a mystery.

    And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world. I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
    (Joh 8:23-24)

  • Lori

    Still not about you.

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    Yes, it is.

    For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
    (Gal 3:26-27)

    Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.
    (Col 1:26-29)

  • hagsrus

    God is Yawning…

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    No, pretty sure He’s laughing.

  • hagsrus

    I’m sure She finds you very amusing, but even the best joke grows tedious with repetition.

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    Even that one.

  • esmerelda_ogg

    Doofus. I – like a number of others here – have been baptized into Christ. I know perfectly well that that doesn’t make me the holy and eternal son of God. You keep giving the impression that you think you are God – probably all three persons of the Trinity – and in this post, you flat out claim to be Christ. Pro tip: you aren’t.

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    Something in your own comment went over your head.

    Also, are you suggesting as Lori initially did that we are not the Body of Christ and that we are not His workmanship preordained to do good works? What might those works be? Preaching repentance to sinners? I’d say that is a safe claim to make. What do you suppose that looks like? Does a dark world like the light? Does a lying world appreciate the truth?

    The fact that this is a mystery to you doesn’t make ME the “doofus”.

  • esmerelda_ogg

    Congratulations. You started your comment with the lamest, most nonsensical insult I ever heard. Doofus.

    As for doing good works, well, I have clear instructions already about what that means: Love the Lord your God with all your mind and heart and soul and strength, and love your neighbor as yourself.

    Treating people with nothing but contemptuous arrogance is not an effective way of evangelizing, you know.

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    Love your neighbor as yourself and don’t bother to tell them that they are playing with death. If they feel that you are “arrogant and contemptuous” for doing so, you must refrain, else you are “unloving”.

    That is what postmodernism has reduced the Gospel to, nothing. No conviction for sins and no repentance because preaching them is now evil.

    Who hates the sinner?

  • John Grotenhuis

    Knox’s Second: All supernatural agencies are ruled out as a matter of course.

    Knox’s Eighth: All clues must be clearly present.

    According to one of the fathers of the mystery genre, this one is pretty shitty- oh, you mean in the gnostic sense.

    Yeah, still pretty shitty if all you have to tie yourself to Christ is “he said I’d die if I didn’t, man!”

    Edit: (In before I mixed up the order of the decalogue. Is that Knox’s fourth or eighth?)

  • http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

    Judging from the timestamps on his posts he was up until around 10 PM last night (possibly later…) and then woke up circa 4-5 AM (Pacific DST, both times) and kept going.

    Pretty busy Slacktiposting schedule for a rural miracle-worker.

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    Amazing huh? Look closer. I wasn’t up all night posting on here. Haha.

  • Lori

    He didn’t say you were up all night. Your reading comprehension seems to be somewhat poor. That could explain some of your problems with understanding the Bible.

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    Show me where I said he did. Your’s is a lot poorer, which explains a lot.

    Lori wins the internet for 9/4/2013.

  • phantomreader42

    for his wife’s sake, he should probably stay away from her, since he seems to think “love” involves setting people on fire. Then again, his “wife” is probably just another of his many lies he made up to puff up his own grotesquely bloated ego.

  • phantomreader42

    Why should anyone believe what you regurgitate from your precious book of myths? You have a rather shitty track record.

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    So much for all the dismay over taking things “out of context”.

  • phantomreader42

    So much for any pretense that you ever had any interest in discussing anything honestly.

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    Stop quoting me out of context and intentionally misconstruing everything you possibly can and get back to me.

  • Lori

    No one has to misconstrue your statements. People can see what you wrote.

  • hagsrus

    Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity*, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.

    – King James Bible “Authorized Version”, Cambridge Edition

    *Love in other translations.

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    “Love” as defined by the world? As in: “tell me what I want to hear and only what I want hear?” You don’t get to define God. God is love AND He is a consuming fire, as defined by the Bible.

    He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.
    (1Jn 4:8)

    For the LORD thy God is a consuming fire, even a jealous God.
    (Deu 4:24)

    Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear: For our God is a consuming fire.
    (Heb 12:28-29)

  • phantomreader42

    So, in your twisted delusions, “love” involves burning people alive forever for your own perverse entertainment.
    It’s lucky for everyone that your imaginary god is nothing more than a figment of your diseased imagination.

  • John Grotenhuis

    I was going to object. Then I realized that the god he believes in is nothing like the one I do.

  • hagsrus

    You’d better ask Paul what he had in mind.

  • smrnda

    Love – liberating oppressed people, helping the disadvantaged

    Hate – oppressing them.
    Indifference – doing nothing.

    The only ‘love’ your offering is empty words.

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    Are you liberating oppressed people, helping the disadvantaged or oppressing anyone on the internet? No? Empty words, that is what the internet is good for.

  • smrnda

    Actually, internet petitions have gone a long way in fixing problems at times.

    The difference is that I actually think unjust conditions must be changed. You think they’re okay just how they are.

  • smrnda

    I’ve supported striking workers a lot lately, in terms of meatspace activism.

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    No I don’t. Why do you think I volunteer? I know that the heart of Christ is to feed the poor and tend the sick, take care of the widows and visit the prisons. And He bore the sin and pain of every rape and assault upon the Cross.

    The question is how we go about fixing it, His way or our own. Many people want to co-opt Jesus as a social revolutionary, which He was, while ignoring the fact that He said that He only did those things He saw the Father doing and saying only those things he heard the Father saying. He was revolutionary because He was 100% obedient. A standard that I am far from.

  • Lori

    He only did those things He saw the Father doing and saying only those things he heard the Father saying.

    If the Father was doing and saying them then presumably Jesus wouldn’t have had to, the Father being omnipotent and all.

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    I guess He doesn’t need you either then.

  • AnonaMiss

    The question is how we go about fixing it, His way or our own. Many people want to co-opt Jesus

    And John answered and said, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name; and we forbad him, because he followeth not with us. And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us.

    Luke 9:49-50

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.
    (Mat 18:15-17)

  • AnonaMiss

    Did you seriously just tell me to not rebuke you in public? After you’ve been going off on everyone in the thread for daring to have different interpretations of scripture than you?

    Or are you trying to say that liberal Christians are ignoring “the church” and so are heathens & publicans & fair game for your ire? In which case, I must point out: the beginning of this process of ‘church discipline’ is trespass against another individual. What harm have I done to you, by considering myself your equal, without regard for the shape of my flesh?

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    Well, for one anyone that actually follows the Bible and what it teaches is labeled “intolerant”. If a person suggests that the Bible proscribes homosexual behavior they are called “homophobes”. If they recommend modest dress or chastity they are “slut-shaming”. If they suggest that the Bible means precisely what it says repeatedly that in marriage women are supposed to submit to their own husbands we are labeled “misogynists”. You have trespassed against God and I’m going to point it out (it’s called correction), if you move into calling me names for Biblical correction now you have trespassed against me. Their is no such thing as a “liberal” Christian, you are either in Christ or you are not. You are not.

  • dpolicar

    How do you tell the difference between people calling you names, and people correcting you?

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    For one, if they are correcting me there should probably be something in the Bible to support what they are saying. Correcting me for sharing what the Bible says about chastity and modesty versus lasciviousness and fornication and declaring it slut shaming is not effective. Telling me to judge not is not effective (God has already judged those things to be wrong). Telling me I’m taking those many many verses out of context is not credible (especially without refutation). And belittling my faith and intelligence while doing all of the above proves to me that you are not in the least bit interested in “correcting” me.

    I don’t have a problem with the name calling but when that is all you have you’re not likely to win the argument (and I mean that in the most metaphysical sense possible).

  • http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

    Oh, so you can’t hear anyone over the sound of how awesome you are? Well, I’m really not surprised you’re back here then. How better to play the brave martyr than to come online here?

    Zero risk, and you don’t even need to shake the dust off your feet when you finally leave.

    As opposed to, gee, I dunno, joining your church to raise funds for people who can’t qualify for SNAP but need assistance?

  • dpolicar

    Ah, so that’s what you mean by correction.

    So a statement like “hydrogen has three protons” may be false but isn’t necessarily correctable in this sense, unless the Bible can be interpreted as saying something about the atomic structure of hydrogen… yes?

    If so, OK, I understand. Thanks for clarifying your position.

  • AnonaMiss

    I’ve not called you a single name over the course of this thread, nor accused you of anything. All I have done is criticized – and, granted, mocked – your interpretations of scripture. So apparently you think any criticism of your interpretation of scripture is a trespass against God.

    And to tell someone you know nothing about that she’s not a Christian! For the record, I’m not even married, so you’re calling me not-a-Christian for thought crimes against the idea of submission to my hypothetical husband.

    Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cumin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law: justice, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone. Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel!

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    One of us is and one of us isn’t. You’re interpretation of the Bible is full of so many holes you could use it for a world record pasta strainer. This leads me to believe that you hold yourself and your opinion above what is written. Your virtually sitting here amongst the scoffers mocking a “brother” saying that I abuse the scriptures without any attempt to show me my error. That doesn’t make you my sister.

  • http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

    You have the utter chutzpah to complain about being called names.

    The utter unmitigated gall to complain about being called names!

    How dare you?

    How dare you stand on your self-righteous little pedestal, you wannabe tin-pot dictator, and sanctimoniously wag your finger at others about being called a homophobe, a victim-blamer, a misgynist, a slut-shamer, when you have availed yourself of the basest, grossest, lowest form of conduct towards another person! Did your Jesus Christ ever swear at others? Did he use rude words to others?

    Do you deny having said what you wrote in the attached picture, sir? DO YOU?

  • Guest

    You are an avowed atheist. Go fuck yourself halfwit. If you were my brother in Christ that would be a sin. Sadly you are not. Instead you are completely ignorant and you let it show clearly with every statement you make.

  • http://anonsam.wordpress.com/ AnonymousSam

    You are no one’s neighbor.

  • dpolicar

    Interesting! I’m curious as to how far that goes, on your view.

    For example, are there other rules of decent behavior that are only sinful to violate with your “brothers in Christ”? Like, for example, is it sinful to lie to an atheist? Cheat one? Steal from one? Bear false witness against one? Kill one?

    Or is insulting people a special case? (What if my mother or father is an atheist… is it acceptable to God if I insult or otherwise dishonor them?)

    “The wonderful thing about standards is there are so many to choose from!”

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    Nope, and guess what, I don’t have to conform to an atheists standard for Christian behavior. You are an idiot and a fool. You should take that as a compliment given that you work so hard at proving yourself to be one. The commands against offense are internal to the body of Christ. Jesus promised us that we would be an offense to the world and those of us who are true to Him are.

    You are going to find me offensive if I called you a silly name or if I didn’t. Now you simply have to what your mind is an excuse. You should thank me for that, but I know you won’t. Did the poh wittle afee-is get his poh poh wittle feewings hoit? Aww, poh baby.

  • http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

    I found you offensive precisely because you used an offensive epithet. Your discourtesy invites discourtesy in return.

    Were there a hell I would wish you in it.

  • http://blog.trenchcoatsoft.com Ross

    Wrong. You’re not called “intolerant” if you actually follow the bible and what it preaches, you’re called intolerant if you’re intolerant even if you pretend the bible justifies it.

    You’re not called a homophobe if you suggest the bible proscribes homosexual behavior. You’re called a homophobe if you use the bible to justify your homophobia.

    You’re not called slut-shaming if you suggest that the bible recommmends modest dress. You’re called slut-shaming if you shame sluts — even if you pretend that the bible is your reason for doing it.

    You aren’t called a misogynist if you suggest the bible tells women to subjit to their husbands. You’re called a misogynist if you try to compel women to submit to their husbands, even if you pretend the bible is the reason you’re doing it.

    If you want to pretend that those passages in the bible order misogyny and homophobia, go right ahead. Lots of atheists agree with you. But you don’t get to go around saying “the bible orders me to be misogynistic and homophobic therefore I am exempt from the rules of basic human decency that preclude that”

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    Do you think that there is safety in numbers? That your agreeing with unbelievers and dogpiling on me is an evidence that what I did was wrong? It’s not that you have a different interpretation of scripture, it’s that it is clear your ideology comes before the Bible. Anything that is inconvenient for you gets explained away or ommitted. That is why I draw your ire and get accused of taking the Bible out of context when I am pulling down multiple references with multiple verses each.

    Your interpretation looks like Swiss-cheese because you have to omit so many things, that alone should be evidence to you that you are having your ears tickled.

    When have you last gone to the Bible and had it HURT? Like, owww, God I am unholy? Such as:

    “Above it stood the seraphims: each one had six wings; with twain he covered his face, and with twain he covered his feet, and with twain he did fly. And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory. And the posts of the door moved at the voice of him that cried, and the house was filled with smoke. Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts. Then flew one of the seraphims unto me, having a live coal in his hand, which he had taken with the tongs from off the altar: And he laid it upon my mouth, and said, Lo, this hath touched thy lips; and thine iniquity is taken away, and thy sin purged. Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I, Here am I; send me.”
    (Isa 6:2-8)

    A dare say, I have never seen this in “liberal Christianity”. Never a bruised ego or a pricked conscience over deep personal sin.

  • John Grotenhuis

    That’s because most of us in “liberal Christianity” don’t pray loudly in public to draw attention to ourselves. I believe Jesus had some choice words about that, too.

    Also there’s this guy, named Jesus. He died in order that we might no longer have to worry about being unclean or unholy? Holy of holies was laid bare when he died? Started the church? Heard of that guy?

  • http://blog.trenchcoatsoft.com Ross

    I’m not sure my hermenutic is right, but I am 100% certain yours is wrong. I am 100% certain that if there’s a god, it’s not the hateful monster who exists to enforce a very specifically 21st century kind of bigotry to empower jackholes like you.

  • smrnda

    I volunteer too, but I know that in the end, it doesn’t fix social problems. How are you going to fix the fact that employers can fire workers for being pregnant by volunteering? Are you going to fix the problem of poverty wages for close to 1/4 of all Americans by slopping some soup in a cup?

    Social problems are like engineering problems – what solves them is a matter of fact and not opinion. Look at countries with low rates of crime and poverty – it’s left-wing social engineering all the way. Your allegedly ‘biblical’ solution doesn’t work.

  • esmerelda_ogg

    “I actually think unjust conditions must be changed. You think they’re okay just how they are.” – smrnda

    Well, no he doesn’t. Going on various bits of blather he posted earlier, he thinks we should bring back slavery, and perhaps feudalism, and definitely abolish democracy. GIL thinks the world isn’t nearly unjust enough and should be made worse.

  • Lori

    If this is true, then you are also not doing anything but spewing empty words. No one is forcing you to post here. You choose to do this with your time instead of doing something else, which by your own standards would be more worthwhile.

  • phantomreader42

    Okay, I know this will be very taxing on your tiny brain, but people who don’t worship your delusions aren’t some vast interchangable hive-mind. I am not the one who made the quote you are whining about. Furthermore, you have not at any point even attempted to demonstrate HOW said quote was out of context, nor what sort of magical context you think would make it okay for you to mock rape victims for not licking your feet and thanking you for raping them.
    So, where’s the context you’re whining about, asshole? Which of your idiotic assertions do you claim I’ve misconstrued, what did you really mean, and why couldn’t you just SAY what you really meant in the first place instead of spamming bible quotes? And why can’t you even keep straight who you’re talking to for one fucking hour?

  • J_Enigma32

    Holy shit, dude. You owe me a new irony meter for that. I can’t believe you have the temerity to accuse someone else of quoting you out-of-context.

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    Yeah, still haven’t come up with any references? Does repeating what you want to believe often enough make it so? Like a mantra you got going there?

  • http://blog.trenchcoatsoft.com Ross

    If you stop lying about us, we’ll stop telling the truth about you. If you stop quoting the bible out of context, we’ll stop quoting you in context. If you stop being a morally destitute bully puffed up with pride and the spirit of antichrist, we’ll stop calling you on it.

  • J_Enigma32

    Yawn.

    C’mon, dude. Try harder. At least Mabus makes his posts interesting to read.

  • http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

    Just so we’re clear that he did actually say that, y’all.

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    Lying lips are abomination to the LORD: but they that deal truly are his delight.
    (Pro 12:22)

    Maybe you don’t understand that cutting a sentence in half and stripping it out of it’s context is not “saying that”. You are dishonest.

    “Submit to your husbands”~ Invisible Neutrino

  • phantomreader42

    So, since you’ve just admitted that your lying lips are an abomination, when will you be stapling them shut?

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    More lies.

  • phantomreader42

    Yes, you keep vomiting forth more lies. The imaginary god you claim to believe in and worship supposedly dislikes that. So when are you going to stop?

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    Put up or look the fool.

  • http://apocalypsereview.wordpress.com/ Invisible Neutrino

    Your conduct towards me is an abomination of any decent person’s behavior.

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon. For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
    (Isa 55:7-9)

  • Lori

    Let the wicked forsake his way

    Yes, you should definitely do this. You should stop siding with rapists. You should also stop bringing shame on the God you claim to worship.

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven. But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven. Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
    (Mat 10:32-34)

  • Lori

    Are you saying that you think you’re justified in using violence against unbelievers? Or that you’re just justified in being pointlessly annoying?

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.
    (Joh 18:36)

  • Lori

    So, just pointlessly annoying then. Got it.

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    No, the Gospel isn’t going to make people happy or bring peace. It’s going to get precisely the response from sinners that you have given. Pure rage.

    Have a nice day.

  • Greenygal

    So the Gospel is the good news, the only thing that can possibly fix anything, but it won’t bring happiness or peace. I see. Or rather I don’t.

    (Seriously, does this mean that Christians are meant to be unhappy? Or that they have to make their own happiness and the Gospel won’t help? Or what?)

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together. For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
    (Rom 8:17-18)

  • Lori

    Have a nice day.

    Are you leaving? Are you actually going to stick the flounce this time?

  • http://blog.trenchcoatsoft.com Ross

    Seems unlikely he’d have come here in the first place if he didn’t have a deep need to suppress whatever’s left of his conscience by frutlessly trying to bully his moral superiors.

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    No, went to do my job. Thought you might miss yapping at me.

  • http://blog.trenchcoatsoft.com Ross

    You’re the one who seems to be angry. To some of us, the gospel is a source of much joy. It doesn’t cause rage in us, other than rage at how asshats like you keep working around the clock to stop the kingdom of God from coming to pass in the here and now. You, on the other hand, read the gospel and find only a weapon you can use to bully people.

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    Ocean’s “rage” are they angry?

  • J_Enigma32

    Oceans do not “rage” in the sense you mean. Your semantic games are not cute. Go back to copying and pasting the Bible; at least you were semi-competent then.

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    The Bible is chocked full of semantic “games”, it helps to keep scoffers like you clueless.

    Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind: Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.
    (Mat 13:47-48)

    Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
    (Rev 12:12)

    And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.
    (Rev 13:1)

    If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed. For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord. A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.
    (Jas 1:5-8)

  • J_Enigma32

    Look, dude, of course it’s going to be full of semantic games and people like myself will be clueless; I mean, when you’re copying and pasting random stuff out of context, it’s going to happen.

    And you have nothing to worry about being double-minded, I assure you. You’d need another three-quarters before you could even get a single one.

    That said, that Bible quote reminds me of Warhammer 40k. “A SMALL MIND IS EASILY FILLED WITH FAITH” – oh, 40k, don’t change.

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    How do you know what the context is? Where is the refutation? You talk big, I don’t see anything but smug bullshit coming out of you though. It’s not like I’m breaking up thoughts, I have posted whole chapters.

  • J_Enigma32

    You’d need thoughts to break up, first.

    Edit: Of course I don’t know what the context is, you jackass. You’re posting then out of context. Have I not highlighted this as a potential problem?

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    Thought so. You made a claim that you couldn’t back up so you deflect. And not just any deflection but an ignorant one trying to fake its way to smug. Oh, how cute.

  • J_Enigma32

    That’s a lie. You can’t think; you can just copy and past.

    I find it amusing that you think I’m going to respond to you in good faith. Keep hoping, kiddo.

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    No, I haven’t seen a scintilla of good faith in this blog and based what I know to be true of you I would never hope.

    I’m just calling you on your bullshit. You responded predictably.

  • J_Enigma32

    You haven’t a scintilla of good faith at all.

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    Your mouth is overloading your ass again there.

    Are you supposed to be some type of rational skeptic? What did you learn about talking about things you know nearly nothing about? Go big or go home?

    Go play some more WH40K, you have a mind to fill up.

  • J_Enigma32

    I deliver a stunning insult and the best you can do is rehash one of mine. I think we’re done here, folks.

    Edited to add: I’m almost sorry I wasted it on you.

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    Stunning how? Did your drool finally make connection with your USB port?

  • J_Enigma32

    Wow. I am sorry I wasted it on you.

  • http://blog.trenchcoatsoft.com Ross

    My god, the projection is strong withthis one.

    You’re the only one arguing in bad faith. You’re the one who quotes out of context. You’re the one who has no comprehension of the bible. You’re the hateful eliminationist. You’re the one whose faith is so weak that you come to someone else’s blog to take a shit all over the place, and you’re the one who’s spoken nothing but bullshit since you got here.

    But go on, respond with your usual “I know you are but what am I,” it’s all you’re capable of.

  • J_Enigma32

    Look, if I wanted to fake at being smug, I’d do what you’re doing. As it is, I have dignity.

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    So you say. You can be anything you want on the internet.

  • J_Enigma32

    Except you. I’d never want to do that to myself.

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    Likewise

  • J_Enigma32

    I keep reading that second quote from Revelation and all I can wonder is, “who the hell names their kid Blasphemy?”

  • http://blog.trenchcoatsoft.com Ross

    So before when you tried to insult us by claiming that the bible made us rage instead of making us happy, that was just you bullshitting because you totes didn’t mean “rage” in that sense, right?

    I mean, the only other possibility is that you’re trying to switch up what meaning you used in a vain attempt to score cheap points because you’re a dishonest shitbag.

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    Ironic that you use the term vain in this post, the terms “rage” and “vain” are in a couplet I quoted earlier. You think I’m trying to score points around here? No wonder you think I’m stupid.

  • J_Enigma32

    Actually, that wasn’t why I thought you were stupid. But if I had to list the reasons, we’d be here all night.

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    I find humor in the fact that you keep acting like I’m responding to you when clearly I’m not. Big IQ at work there.

  • J_Enigma32

    And yet, here you are, responding to me.

    Big IQ at work, there.

  • J_Enigma32

    Lol. You think I’m angry?

    You give yourself far, far too much credit.

  • phantomreader42

    He’s saying that he spends a lot of time sitting in a puddle of his own filth jerking off to fantasies about murdering anyone who doesn’t believe his bullshit, but he’s too much of a coward to actually DO anything violent in the real world without a lynch mob to disable the victim first.

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men. Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord. Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head. Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.
    (Rom 12:18-21)

  • Lori

    Apparently God likes cut & paste spam. Either that or some asshat has totally lost his grip. Hum, I wonder which it could be?

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind. Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but be thou partaker of the afflictions of the gospel according to the power of God; Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
    (2Ti 1:7-9)

  • Lori

    You don’t have a spirit of genuine power. People with actual power don’t brag and bully. You most certainly don’t have a spirit of love. Your cut & paste spamming makes it clear that you also don’t have a spirit of sound mind. Wherever you got your spirit it apparently wasn’t from the God you claim to worship.

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    Do you call “Slacktivist” a place of universal love and acceptance?

    The wise in heart will receive commandments: but a prating fool shall fall.
    (Pro 10:8)

    A reproof entereth more into a wise man than an hundred stripes into a fool.
    (Pro 17:10)

  • Lori

    Universal love and acceptance? No. We neither love nor accept bullies and abusers. That’s why you’ve not found a welcome here.

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    You are perverts, God loves you and calls you to repent.

    And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things? I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish. Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem? I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
    (Luk 13:2-5)

  • Lori

    You are a hypocrite. Jesus says that if you don’t cut that out you’re going to end up in hell.

    Tend to your own, little man. Tend to your own.

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    Oh but I am;

    Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.
    (Psa 2:8)

  • smrnda

    I am not a Christian. Most Christians obviously don’t give a shit about me, but Fred here and many of the people who post here clearly care more than the more “Biblical” types, who think that the whole game is just getting me to join their club and get some water splashed on me.

  • http://blog.trenchcoatsoft.com Ross

    You know,it’s tantamount to blasphemy when a monster like you quotes holy scripture in service of the spirit of antichrist.

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter! Woe unto them that are wise in their own eyes, and prudent in their own sight! Woe unto them that are mighty to drink wine, and men of strength to mingle strong drink: Which justify the wicked for reward, and take away the righteousness of the righteous from him! Therefore as the fire devoureth the stubble, and the flame consumeth the chaff, so their root shall be as rottenness, and their blossom shall go up as dust: because they have cast away the law of the LORD of hosts, and despised the word of the Holy One of Israel.
    (Isa 5:20-24)

  • Lori

    Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for
    light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for
    bitter!

    This certainly describes you.

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
    (Gal 5:19-23)

  • Lori

    Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like:

    “You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother’s eye. Matthew 7:5

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints? Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?
    (1Co 6:1-2)

  • Lori

    That verse forbids a believer from bringing a civil law suit against a fellow Christian before attempting to working it out within the church. It has nothing whatsoever to do with this discussion.

    The fact that you dropped it in here makes it clear that you either have no understanding, in spite of the fact that you’ve supposedly studied for ordination, or that you still think people here will be snowed by your spamming with random verses. Either way it’s pretty pathetic.

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
    (Mat 24:12-14)

    I don’t see an addendum anywhere that says not to preach the Gospel and repentance because it’s too “judgy”. Could you direct me to it?

  • Lori

    The problem isn’t that you’re “judgy”. The problem is that you’re nasty and hateful. The problem is that you bear false witness and side with the powerful against the weak. The problem is that you’re puffed up with pride. Does a guy who studied for ordination really need help finding the verses that condemn those things?

    The problem is also that you’ve clearly developed some weird obsession with this place. If we’re really so terrible you’re not supposed to do that.

    Finally, brothers and sisters, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things.

    Philippians 4:8

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    Keep priming the pump and asking questions like you care what the answer is. It makes me think about the Bible.

  • Lori

    I’m not pretending to care about you. You don’t deserve my interest. I suspect you thinking about the Bible is also pointless since all you do with it is use it to justify yourself. It would be much healthier for you to think instead of spamming strangers on a blog though.

  • http://blog.trenchcoatsoft.com Ross

    I doubt anything could make a man like you think about the bible.

  • John Grotenhuis

    I wonder what you think of the lines “he who is without sin, let him throw the first stone?”

    Or how about “let no one call unclean what the Lord has made clean”?

    Or Deborah the prophet, who rode into battle for Israel?

    Or David and Jonathan, who have the world’s most ambiguously phrased relationship?

    Or the fact that assholes spouting religious texts were a favorite target of Jesus’s smackdowns?

    Bible’s a big book, man. A lot of big books.

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    Your religion is advocating homosexual acts while claiming Christ and demonizing the Bible and everything written in it that you disagree with. You’re religion is “progressivism” that cannot brook dissent. You gnash your teeth at any who claim that your cries for “equality” are really cries for enslavement of everyone to what YOU think is right. Your religion is the broad way that leads to destruction and you believe by the numbers of people who are in it with you that it is so. Love says otherwise.

    “Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves: Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste. Judgment also will I lay to the line, and righteousness to the plummet: and the hail shall sweep away the refuge of lies, and the waters shall overflow the hiding place.”
    (Isa 28:15-17)

  • smrnda

    Let me get this straight – you think it’s okay for slavery to exist since there’s a Bible verse that says it’s okay, and you think it’s okay for women to be the property of men since well, advocating for rights for women is always wrong, even when men do it.

    You think that ‘equality’ enslaves everyone – exactly how does it do that? I mean, even the former masters or slaves are not enslaved by the end of slavery, nor are men enslaved if they don’t legally own women.

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    Slavery is evil. So is murder, rape, violence in general and malice. Anything else I can clear up for you?

  • J_Enigma32

    “You’re religion is “progressivism” that cannot brook dissent”

    That’s cool. I had no idea Progressive had a religion around it: “Hey, honey, I just saved a lifetime in hell by switching my religion to Progressive!”

    ” You gnash your teeth at any who claim that your cries for “equality” are really cries for enslavement of everyone to what YOU think is right.”

    I try not to, because that hurts my teeth and dental care is expensive. Also, slavery is wrong. Just one more reason not to follow the Bible…

    “Your religion is the broad way that leads to destruction….”

    Well, DUH. We’re worshiping an insurance company, right? It only makes sense that we’d be doing whatever we could so that it’d make more money, just like every religion including your own.

    “Love says otherwise.”

    Yeah, well, Flo says you’re wrong. And Flo is never wrong. So there.

    “Look you, Doubloon, your zodiac here is the life of man in one round chapter; and now I’ll read it off, straight out of the book. Come, Almanack! To begin: there’s Aries, or the Ram — lecherous dog, he begets us; then, Taurus, or the Bull — he bumps us the first thing; then Gemini, or the Twins — that is, Virtue and Vice; we try to reach Virtue, when lo! comes Cancer the Crab, and drags us back; and here, going from Virtue, Leo, a roaring Lion, lies in the path — he gives a few fierce bites and surly dabs with his paw; we escape, and hail Virgo, the Virgin! that’s our first love; we marry and think to be happy for aye, when pop comes Libra, or the Scales — happiness weighed and found wanting; and while we are very sad about that, Lord! how we suddenly jump, as Scorpio, or the Scorpion, stings us in rear; we are curing the wound, when whang come the arrows all round; Sagittarius, or the Archer, is amusing himself. As we pluck out the shafts, stand aside; here’s the battering-ram, Capricornus, or the Goat; full tilt, he comes rushing, and headlong we are tossed; when Aquarius, or the Water-bearer, pours out his whole deluge and drowns us; and to wind up with Pisces, or the Fishes, we sleep. There’s a sermon now, writ in high heaven, and the sun goes through it every year, and yet comes out of it all alive and heartyThough amid all the smoking horror and diabolism of a sea-fight, sharks will be seen longingly gazing up to the ship’s decks, like hungry dogs round a table where red meat is being carved, ready to bolt down every killed man that is tossed to them.”
    (H. Meville, 99)

  • John Grotenhuis

    But the stone the builders rejected became the capstone.

    You quite certain you want to keep up the homophobic bullying nonsense?

    I’d finish this off with a Bible quote. But I was going to use that one.

    And what’s this nonsense about love? Can you honestly say you love anyone here? That your “God” does?

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    I’m curious about your eschatology. How do you think this will end? Do you see a wave of social justice sweeping the world to a perpetual utopia? Or do you imagine a dystopic future with the jackboots of fundamentalist Christians on your throats? By everything I can see it seems like everything is going your way, and I’m just a dinosaur doomed to the boneyard. How is it that I am a threat here? How is it that you imagine a worldwide universal embrace of your ideologies and that those ideologies are those of God?

    Broad is the path that leads to destruction, that is axiomatic, if you and everyone in the world are indistinguishable would you not qualify that as a broad path?

    “That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour: Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.”
    (2Pe 3:2-8)

    How do you reconcile any of the Bible at all? How do you possibly think that you are not the scoffer that Peter was referring to? Hedonism is the broad path, just because you WANT it doesn’t make something Godly.

  • P J Evans

    How do you know that it’s intended to be taken literally? Why do you believe that you’re the one with ALL the right answers?

    WHO DIED AND MADE YOU GOD?

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    It’s not literal, its allegorical. Are we looking for a really wide wide highway somewhere? As if maybe that is what Jesus was talking about? I’m not God, but claiming to believe in the Bible while wriggling all over the place and turning truth into nonsense has left it’s imprint on you.

    For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together. For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
    (Rom 8:14-18)

  • John Grotenhuis

    You aren’t a threat, you’re just obnoxious. And “broad is the path” refers to how easy it is to fuck up, not the number of people who do. Which is everyone, by the way. Saints are sinners.

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    It’s not talking about sinners or saints, it’s talking about people entering into “life”.

    Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
    (Mat 7:14)

    Not coincidentally:

    Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
    (Joh 14:6-7)

    And seeing this worked out within the ministry of Jesus:

    Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him. As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me. This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever. These things said he in the synagogue, as he taught in Capernaum. Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it? When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you? What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before? It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father. From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
    (Joh 6:53-66)

  • http://blog.trenchcoatsoft.com Ross

    How do you think yours will end? People are going to keep being born gay, women are going to keep being born human, and even straight white men are going to keep being born not so totally devoid of empathy that they fail to notice how unhappy the world you want to live in makes a large percentage of people.

    Hate has no endgame. You just have to keep hating. Keep oppressing. Keep murdering. Keep torturing. Forever. No one can hate that perfectly, not indefinitely. You can’t persist in a hermenutic that causes only unhappiness and suffering, not forever.

    We can’t stop people like you from making yourselves unhappy, but we can damned well stop you from inflicting misery on others. Because ultimately, that’s all you want to do, inflict misery and oppression on others. And that never works in the long term; it’s just too much work.

    Your little petty power games can not be the will of God. It’s nonsense. This world makes no sense as the creation of a savage hateful bully whose primary interest is protecting the privilege of early 21st century white men (Because the things you advocate aren’t timeless, they don’t map to the things the early christians believed. They have some superficial similarities, but all your views on gender roles are based on the 20th century and your views on scripture are 19th century.).

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    You win. What people want becomes the all consuming drive and we have nothing but hedonism and selfishness everywhere (as it was in the days of Noah). They develop a terminal case of “evil hearts departing from the living God” and they kill enough of the innocent (through abortion for example) and of God’s elect that the cup and measure of God’s wrath will be filled up and then Jesus will put a stop to it and destroy you with the brightness of His coming.

    For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
    (2Th 2:7-12)

  • http://blog.trenchcoatsoft.com Ross

    What is your obsession with hedonism? It’s not about hedonism, numbnuts, it’s about love.

    You’re so obsessed with sex that you can’t even imagine that people who don’t fuck the way you fuck might actually be concerned about love.

    But then, you seem to not really have any understranding of love, do you? It’s all about power and control with you.

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
    (Heb 12:6-8)

    I’m not in control, God is. That is why He chastens me, and how I know I am His. Do you receive chastening Ross?

  • http://blog.trenchcoatsoft.com Ross

    Sure I do. I am aware of the chastening of God every time I try to be smug and superior. Every time I see inequality in the world that exists only because I and my fellow man aren’t willing to fix it. Whenever I wish harm on others. Whenever I am lacking in love. Whenever I am judgmental. Whenever I seek to chasten others. Whenever I am a bully or a bigot.

    I am most with God when I try to make the world more perfect. I am most chastened by God when I try to make the world worse.

    We can add “chasten” to the words you don’t understand if you think that God is chastening you for not being enough of a bully and not spreading hate and denial of the creation hard enough.

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    I don’t find the word “bigot” in the Bible, could you define lasciviousness to me?

    And he said, That which cometh out of the man, that defileth the man. For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness: All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.
    (Mar 7:20-23)

    This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind, Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart: Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness. But ye have not so learned Christ; If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus: That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
    (Eph 4:17-24)

    Sure, I see these verses whenever I have the misfortune to see a report on a Westboro Baptist Church protest, I also see them manifest in Gay Pride parades and Slut-walks. People reveling in their own rot.

  • http://blog.trenchcoatsoft.com Ross

    Look, you’re just quoting random bible verses that don’t have a damned thiong to do with your ridiculous beliefs. Those words do not mean what you think they mean. You’ve offered nothing but “Because I say so” as justification for why your interpretation is better than mine.

    You really do think that God is some kind of genie, contractually bound to do your bidding if you say the magic words.

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    Random? They aren’t random. You either haven’t read them or don’t understand them but that in no way reduces them to random.

  • http://blog.trenchcoatsoft.com Ross

    I’ve read them. I understand them. That’s how I know they don’t mean what you say they mean.

  • Rhubarbarian82

    What is your obsession with hedonism?

    I’m guessing it’s either a conscious or – more likely – a subconscious fear that some people out there are having a lot more fun than he is.

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season; Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward.
    (Heb 11:25-26)

  • smrnda

    “we have nothing but hedonism and selfishness everywhere”

    so… a belief that some people should not be dominated or oppressed by others, that there should be some reasonable level of equality, that the resources of the world should be used to satisfy needs first and then rich, privileged people can stockpile wealth *after* everybody gets fed is ‘hedonism and selfishness,’ but slavery and oppression and chaining workers to machines and forcing pregnant women to work in mines and is … great and *not selfish.*

    Like all proponents of oppression, you’ll look for any way to denounce the legitimate complains and needs of the less privileged as ‘selfish’ while remaining conspicuously silent on the actions of those at the top. You’ll denounce a thirst for justice as ‘selfish’ and ‘hedonistic’ but will ignore those actually wallowing in privilege and affluence. You’ll stand around and demand that those on the bottom ‘die to self’ but will not do so to those who piss and shit on them.

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    Do you propose that being equal is going to take the sting of death away from them? Do you propose that it is the answer to their separation due to their sin from God? We’re all walking corpses and the only way forward to peace and joy IS to die. There is no remedy in this world that is going to fix this but Christ. Being rich or “equal” isn’t going to fix this. Having rights is not going to fix this and that goes for my rights as much as anyone’s.

  • dpolicar

    Agreed that equality and respect for human rights don’t remove the sting of death.

    Agreed that equality and human rights don’t address anyone’s separation from God, whether due to their sin or any other reason.

    All equality does is remove the sting of inequality, and address our separation from one another. All human rights do is secure for all people a share of the blessings this world has to offer us.

    My experience of the world teaches me these things are worth pursuing.

    If you don’t consider them worth pursuing without a quote from the Bible that says so, that’s a shame. I can only hope, in that case, that you either look for such a quote until you find one, or at least that you don’t interfere with others’ pursuit of those things.

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    What I see increasingly is an abandonment of holiness and sanctity towards God and more of self-justification for holding the proper social and political positions. God wants justice, mercy, and equality. We don’t have to look farther than the ministry of Jesus to see this in action. BUT, they are His works. The reason Jesus was so effectual is precisely because of His holiness, His complete obedience to the Father. He came up in resurrection life because of it and made a way for us. If we ignore that way we are like Essau, forsaking our birthright.

  • dpolicar

    I’m glad you don’t oppose justice, mercy, or equality.

    When you say you see “increasingly” an abandonment of holiness and sanctity, what timeframe do you have in mind? E.g…. a year? Ten years? A hundred? A thousand? All of the above?

    Similarly, what’s the scope of your observation of this increased abandonment of sanctity ? Do you observe it differentially among particular nations, political groups, socioeconomic classes, etc? Are self-described Christians less subject to it, for example? Or do you observe it equally for all humans?

    While we’re at it, what is your estimation of the level of justice, mercy, and equality you observe in the world within that scope, over that timeframe?

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    I was listening to NPR the other day and they were interviewing a New York city cab driver. He had been driving cab in New York for 50 years and was talking about what it was like there when he was a child. People sleeping on their fire escapes at night because of the heat, people sleeping in Central Park because of the heat and developing “summer friends”.

    The metrics are laying all around, pick one. From the fraud that is our economy with banksters and their licenses to steal, to a government that seems prepared to pound every nation in the world into submission, to people living without basic decency or restraint (Whether it’s Fred Phelps, John Corzine, Mark Sanford, Elliot Spitzer, Jamie Dimon, Bob Filner, or “Carlos Danger”).

    Things are not getting better

  • dpolicar

    Cab drivers notwithstanding, I would be very surprised to discover that 50 years ago there were no fraudulent banksters, militaristic governments, or people living without basic decency or restraint.

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    With that type of rationalization what difference does it really make if more rapes or murders are committed? It’s not as if there weren’t rapists and murderers in the past.

  • http://anonsam.wordpress.com/ AnonymousSam

    The murder rate is significantly lower than it was 50 years ago. Number of rapes per year is difficult to determine because it didn’t used to be reported or convicted as often as it is today (which is still a small fraction of the actual number thought to be occurring), but it’s worth nothing that 50 years ago, it was considered perfectly kosher for a husband to beat and rape his wife.

    The golden age you believe existed in the past is imaginary.

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    Was it lower before the cultural revolution? Something changed in the 60’s. If you’ll notice I said he had been driving cab for 50 years not that this “golden age” had occurred 50 years ago.

    Sometimes looking back is precisely what Jesus does to warn us:

    And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
    (Luk 17:26)

    And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them. But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.
    (Gen 6:5-8)

  • hagsrus

    Whut?

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    Jesus was letting His students know that He would be returning when the world is in a similar condition to when He destroyed it the first time. 8 survived the judgement by water, again few will survive the judgement by fire.

    For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
    (1Pe 3:18-20)

    Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
    (Mat 7:14)

  • hagsrus

    Thanks, but this is what has me puzzled:

  • dpolicar

    Can you clarify the rationalization you’re accusing me of making, here?

    From my perspective we were talking about the rate of change in various things, and comparing measurements in the present in the past seems directly relevant to that subject, so I don’t see any rationalization going on at all.

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    People were fraudulent, militaristic, and lacking in decency and moral restraint then and now so what is the difference? I was pointing at the frequency, “the rate”. And you stepped over to a qualifying argument that suggested that the depth of depravity hadn’t changed. That seems very much like a rationalizing statement to me, maybe you see it differently.

    I would think that someone who was concerned with social justice would see an increase in murder, rape and an overall decay in public manners as something to be noted and measured instead of having it’s existence questioned to make a point in an argument.

    For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. All these are the beginning of sorrows. Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name’s sake. And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
    (Mat 24:7-14)

  • dpolicar

    Ah, I see. Thanks for the clarification.

    You didn’t cite any frequencies, you merely pointed to the existence of fraudulent banksters, militaristic governments, and people living without basic decency or restraint in our modern world. I inferred that you were citing qualitative metrics… these things exist now, and didn’t exist then. I responded accordingly: these things did exist then.

    To accuse me of “rationalization” for doing the same thing you did is, at best, uncharitable.

    Anyway, with respect to your apparently implicit quantitative point… the rate of many of the things you cite have declined in the last fifty years, to say nothing of the last thousand. Also, many classes of people enjoy fundamental liberties now that they did not enjoy a hundred years ago (to say nothing of a thousand). Also, many people are healed now of illnesses and injuries that would have destroyed or ended their lives a hundred years ago, or fifty years ago, or in some cases even fifteen years ago (I myself am one of those last). Also, starvation and malnutrition among the poor and elderly in my country is a small fraction of what it was a hundred years ago.

    So, no, this steady and universal decline you keep talking about? It doesn’t exist. Yes, lots of things are bad now, and we should work to make them better. We’ve been doing so, which is why they are better than they were fifty years ago, a hundred years, a thousand years.

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    You are absolutely right, it was uncharitable. I am sorry.

    On the other front, one thing that William Wilberforce focused on after the abolition of slavery in the British Empire was the reformation of manners. In what light do you think he would look upon the state of morality in Western Civilization today?

    As far as fraud, one need only look at the ever increasing size of the housing bubbles, the increasing need for government bailouts and the unfunded (current and future) obligations of governments to see that we are papering over our problems. Much of the charred veneer of civility is going to be blown away on the day those hard winds blow. We could argue about the “steady decline” forever. I tend to see things going more in accordance with the Seneca Principle and posit that there are hinge points that can be noted that will bring about catastrophe. As I said those can be disputed.

    We’ll just have to wait and see.

  • dpolicar

    I have no idea what William Wilberforce would think of the state of morality in Western Civilization today. Nor do I care overmuch. Do you think William Wilberforce’s hypothetical opinion is important, and if so why?

    With regards to the broader question… well, all right. If on your view we need only look at current events to see that a steady decline is occurring, then we simply disagree on how a conclusion like that can even be justified in the first place.

    So yes, I agree with you completely that your vision of the future and the present can be disputed; in fact, I dispute it.

    And either way, we are not actually restricted to waiting and seeing. We can also act, to make things better or worse. And we can encourage others to act, or discourage them from doing so.

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    The reason I bring up Wilberforce is because it seems that social justice Christians do not have any qualms about latching onto and appropriating the moral authority when it pertains to social justice while ejecting their other views, (Bonhoeffer is another example). I like to point at them to set a standard apart from the tennis without nets approach of moral relativists. If the highest moral authority is ourselves under the enslavement of a Hegelian dialectic I’m not very impressed.

    Soberly approaching a moral man such as Wilberforce could provide an example of more than just how much things have gotten better. He could be a benchmark for how things have gotten worse, if one were so inclined.

  • dpolicar

    So, I’m not sure I’m following you here, but what I’m getting is you think Wilberforce’s hypothetical opinion about modern life is important because he’s a moral man, and consequently a source of moral authority.

    Yes?

  • http://anonsam.wordpress.com/ AnonymousSam

    You would condemn Esau.

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    The elder is condemned if I will it or not. He is the son of the bondmaid and will not inherit.

    It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
    (Rom 9:12-16)

    Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman. So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.
    (Gal 4:30-31)

  • http://anonsam.wordpress.com/ AnonymousSam

    Enjoy your reward, Antichrist.

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    So now I perceive that you DO have some understanding.

    But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come? Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance: And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham. And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
    (Mat 3:7-10)

    Maybe you understand what John the Baptist was driving at there?

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    So what we do is selfishly take what belongs to other selfish people? How do we deal with the selfishness? How does that issue get solved? Jesus said that it would be easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than a rich man to enter into heaven. Who do YOU want to lay that curse upon?

    We’re still all going to die. Have a solution for that? Only those that “die to self” are going to have everlasting life.

    Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?
    (Mat 16:24-26)

    Claiming that the distribution of the world is unfair and that a redistribution is going to somehow fix it is ignoring the underlying condition of our soul.

    This is also why the social justice advocate is never going to be at peace. “No justice, no peace” describes both their accusation towards God and the condition of their soul.

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    Where did your daughters come from? Are you committing adultery as well as fornication? Do you think that you should maybe STOP? Or is that God just asking too much?

  • J_Enigma32

    Copying and pasting isn’t thought.

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    You are proving my point.

  • P J Evans

    You have no point.

  • Lurker

    I’m sorely tempted to go through and respond to each of the Laugher’s utterly out of context bible quotes with a quote from the Principia Discordia.

    But I’m just a lurker, and I have better things to do with my time. Like write fan fiction.

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    That would be very impressive if you could find any correlations. I’d like to see that.

  • Lurker

    Correlations? Why would I want to find correlations? XD XD XD

    “All statements are true in some sense, false in some sense, meaningless in some sense, true and false in some sense, true and meaningless in some sense, false and meaningless in some sense, and true and false and meaningless in some sense.”

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    How long, ye simple ones, will ye love simplicity? and the scorners delight in their scorning, and fools hate knowledge? Turn you at my reproof: behold, I will pour out my spirit unto you, I will make known my words unto you. Because I have called, and ye refused; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded; But ye have set at nought all my counsel, and would none of my reproof: I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh; When your fear cometh as desolation, and your destruction cometh as a whirlwind; when distress and anguish cometh upon you. Then shall they call upon me, but I will not answer; they shall seek me early, but they shall not find me: For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD: They would none of my counsel: they despised all my reproof. Therefore shall they eat of the fruit of their own way, and be filled with their own devices. For the turning away of the simple shall slay them, and the prosperity of fools shall destroy them. But whoso hearkeneth unto me shall dwell safely, and shall be quiet from fear of evil.
    (Pro 1:22-33)

  • Rhubarbarian82

    You need a better hobby.

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    How convenient it is then that I have a better hobby.

  • Rhubarbarian82
  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    Yeah, I went trolling and caught some nice silvers with a buddy of mine. We need to go out and do some hunting next and see about getting a moose. Those are better hobbies.

  • http://ragingvanity.wordpress.com/ God is Laughing

    To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David. Hear my voice, O God, in my prayer: preserve my life from fear of the enemy. Hide me from the secret counsel of the wicked; from the insurrection of the workers of iniquity: Who whet their tongue like a sword, and bend their bows to shoot their arrows, even bitter words: That they may shoot in secret at the perfect: suddenly do they shoot at him, and fear not. They encourage themselves in an evil matter: they commune of laying snares privily; they say, Who shall see them? They search out iniquities; they accomplish a diligent search: both the inward thought of every one of them, and the heart, is deep. But God shall shoot at them with an arrow; suddenly shall they be wounded. So they shall make their own tongue to fall upon themselves: all that see them shall flee away. And all men shall fear, and shall declare the work of God; for they shall wisely consider of his doing. The righteous shall be glad in the LORD, and shall trust in him; and all the upright in heart shall glory.
    (Psa 64:1-10)


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