Marriage Equality and Hinduism

You may have guessed from some of my previous posts that I am a liberal Hindu. I don’t like to draw strict lines of division, make battles of “us v.s. them” or dictate how anyone else should live. I err firmly on the side of letting others make their own mistakes and sorting it out with God and karma themselves.

As with any other hot-button issue, there are Hindus on both sides of the marriage equality question. When Hinduism Today interviewed various swamis about their opinion of same-sex marriage, they gave a wide range of opinions both positive and negative. Because Hinduism has no central authority, it is possible for teachers to debate and discuss without needing to claim that his way is The Hindu Way.

What is the purpose of marriage according to Hinduism?

It joins two people for four purposes:

  • dharma —> duty, harmony, balance
  • artha—> worldly possessions/wealth
  • kama—> passion, lust, desire
  • moksha—> spiritual liberation, enlightenment

{For the average Hindu, it is expected that he will fulfill different duties for different times in his life. Most are expected to be householders and work to build wealth and security for the family in the middle of their lives and then towards the end to become dedicated to spiritual development.}

I see nothing in those four purposes that would forbid same sex unions.

In my research of this subject I encountered some very interesting points:

  • A liberal view is presented by Mathematician Shakuntala Devi, in her 1977 book, The World of Homosexuals, in which she interviewed Srinivasa Raghavachariar, head priest of the Srirangam temple. He said that same-sex lovers must have been cross-sex lovers in a former life. The sex may change but the soul retains its attachments, hence the love impels these souls towards one another.
  •  In 2002, Ruth Vanita (writer/reporter for GALVA – The Gay and Lesbian Vaishnava Association, Inc.) interviewed a Shaiva priest who performed the marriage of two women; having studied Hindu scriptures, he had concluded, “Marriage is a union of spirits, and the spirit is not male or female” (p. 147).

Both these quotes from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_views_on_same-sex_marriage#Liberal_Hindus

For the most part I think Hinduism is stuck a bit in the past with this issue. The culture around Hinduism is used to a world where procreation is critical. That is not the world we live in today where over population is an enormous threat. (Then again those who argue that 1) procreation is super important and 2) “it’s unnatural” to be gay seem to not know that 1) society has always had members who did not have children and 2) gay behavior is found in many animal species. We might not understand the purpose for either of those things, but that doesn’t mean that nature doesn’t have a purpose for it).

If we have fewer children, there is no problem within Hinduism because those souls will have other births and eventually make their way to human embodiments  but not all thought has caught up with this fact of modern life.

Gender identity within Hinduism can be quite fluid. Gods have female aspects, Arjuna the great warrior was turned into a woman for a year. The stories abound of people switching genders in mythology.

Hinduism has also long acknowledged a “third gender”:

To expand further, in Hinduism there is a belief of the third gender. This is a category outside male and female, it is one which includes a wide range of people with mixed male and female natures such as transgender, homosexuals, transsexuals, bisexuals and so on. Such persons are not considered fully male or female in Hindu tradition but being combinations of both. They are mentioned as third sex by nature and are not expected to behave like ordinary men and women. They often keep their own societies or quarters, perform specific occupations (such as masseurs, hairdressers, flower-seller, domestic servants, etc.) and are generally attributed with a semi-divine status. -http://spiritualityireland.org/blog/index.php/2011/07/asia-and-hinduism-makes-hallmark-with-first-same-sex-marriage/

You will often see transgendered men called hijras at Hindu festivals and events. It is considered auspicious by some to have them there. Hijras do struggle, from what I understand, being at or near the very bottom of the social totem pole of Indian life.

I’m sure you will not be surprised to hear that my opinion is that love is more important than anything else. Love is the cause and the reason for all of creation. Acts done in pure love will not have negative consequences. 

This is another issue that I was raised to believe differently. I was taught that acting on homosexuality was wrong. I was taught that someone with these feelings would have to be celibate or marry an opposite-gendered person in order to break the karma that made him gay so he could be born straight in the next life.

I no longer agree with these teachings. I had some of my own experiences that I don’t wish to go into, but they led me to realize what an enormous and unfair burden it is to ask someone to deny that part of himself for his entire life. If he himself believes that he must, then I wish him luck. I would never ask that sacrifice of another human being.

I have also come to believe that this sacrifice is unnecessary. The goal of life is not to be born straight. It is to attain unity with God. Being gay does not in any way stand in the way of that, in my opinion. The love that one feels for a partner is a very helpful stepping stone to help us begin to understand and to love God. Love for a partner can be a transcendent and spiritual experience. I see God in my soon-to-be husband. I see God in many people, male and female alike.

I do not feel that people of the same gender marrying in any way diminishes or harms my own upcoming marriage.

Bodies are just bodies, it is the soul that matters most and that soul should be experiencing love and giving love and embodying love. Practicing hating yourself will never lead you to find God within your soul. Hating yourself for being gay would be hating God. Whatever your nature is, it is an aspect of God. Hating others will never lead you to happiness or peace either. Hate has no place in my faith.

Some more voices:

Again turning to the wonderful Hinduism Today magazine, here is the result of their discussion on marriage equality: http://www.hinduismtoday.com/modules/smartsection/item.php?itemid=1300

The Hindu: The third gender’s right to dignity

The Gay and Lesbian Vaishnava Association

“Hindu views of homosexuality are varying and diverse, in part because the accepted Hindu religious texts do not explicitly mention homosexuality.” -http://www.religionfacts.com/homosexuality/hinduism.htm

 

{Featured image from http://www.contemporarynomad.com/2009/06/the-curse-of-the-hijra/}

About Ambaa

Ambaa is an American woman of European ancestry who is also a practicing Hindu. She is fascinated with questions of philosophy, culture, and the meaning of life. Join her in the journey to explore how a non-Indian convert to Hinduism experiences her religion.

  • Pratheesh

    I think if a person’s sexual inclination is totally personal and the society at large should leave them to live their life with their choice.I haven’t seen anything wrong in being a gay or lesbian or even bisexual.

    • Ambaa

      Agreed!

  • Syed

    Humans Beings are not capable of determining everything that is good or bad for them. The Almighty guides us in such matters. What you imply from you post is Hinduism is not complete and it is not a relegion it is just a culture. When there is no central autority governing the beleifs then it leads to anarchy, it is not rational. Anybody can claim their opinion as being a Hindu belief/something.
    This is just how I see it is.

    • Ambaa

      I certainly don’t mean to imply Hinduism is not complete or is in some way lacking. I’ve had a few posts about what Hinduism is and how we can determine if someone is a Hindu. I’d love to get your take on those: http://www.patheos.com/blogs/whitehindu/2013/01/what-makes-me-a-hindu/ , http://www.patheos.com/blogs/whitehindu/2013/03/why-i-am-a-hindu/ , http://www.patheos.com/blogs/whitehindu/2013/01/the-branches-of-hinduism/

    • HARRY

      @ Syed

      Hinduism is not govern by fear. You don’t need fear to make you a good human being. And those who turns to anarchy are not religious. Hinduism is about self discovery on ones spirituality.

      • Doug

        Can we end this idea that all Christianity governs with fear? True some of the more vocal “Christians” preach damnation and hell fire but I, as a Catholic, have never once in my life been told by a religious teacher or leader that if I do/don’t do something I’m going to Hell. We preach loving others and doing good to them. I also don’t believe in condemning people, even non Christians, because ultimately I believe it is between them and God. Hell is a choice, not a consequence.

        • Ambaa

          No one said anything here about Christianity, but I do see your point that it is sometimes thought that Christianity uses fear to keep people in line. It certainly does sometimes. I think all religions fall victim to that in some places. It’s too tempting for men in power to try to control their followers using fear. But it is not the true faith for Hinduism or for Christianity.

          • Doug

            Yeah I know Christianity wasn’t actually mentioned but Harry said “Hinduism does not govern by fear” which is an implied contrast to Christianity. I wouldn’t have commented if it weren’t for the fact that similar things were said multiple times on the other posts too so I thought I’d say something.

          • Ambaa

            Looks like you have been proven correct! I thought that was coming out of no where, but I guess I was wrong :-/

    • Arjun

      ‘When there is no central autority governing the beleifs then it leads to anarchy, it is not rational.’

      oh really maybe you think living under a dictatorship is rational but its not for normal people

  • Arjun

    ‘Yeah I know Christianity wasn’t actually mentioned but Harry said “Hinduism does not govern by fear” which is an implied contrast to Christianity’

    actually Christianity does govern by fear it may have softened its approach now but anyone reading the bible can clearly see the fear factor of not accepting Christ will end up as sundays roast in a place called hell.The chatholic church doesnt even accept Protestants as proper Christians so what chance have other religions got..

    • Ambaa

      From my memory of reading the Bible in college, I don’t think hell is mentioned. Maybe once obliquely referred to as the “place of gnashing of teeth.” I don’t believe the Bible has any of the “hell and brimstone” preaching that some Christian sects have become known for. Please, Christians, let me know if I’m wrong on that!

  • Arjun

    Biblical Terms for Hell
    The Hebrew word Sheol occurs 65 times in the Old Testament. It is translated “hell,” “the grave,” “death,” “destruction,” and “the pit.” Sheol identifies the general abode of the dead, a place where life no longer exists.

    Example of Sheol:

    Psalm 49:13–14
    This is the path of those who have foolish confidence; yet after them people approve of their boasts. Selah. Like sheep they are appointed for Sheol; death shall be their shepherd, and the upright shall rule over them in the morning. Their form shall be consumed in Sheol, with no place to dwell. (ESV)

    Hades is the Greek term translated “hell” in the New Testament. Hades is similar to Sheol. It is described as a prison with gates, bars, and locks, and its location is downward.

    Example of Hades:

    Acts 2:27–31
    ‘For you will not abandon my soul to Hades, or let your Holy One see corruption. You have made known to me the paths of life; you will make me full of gladness with your presence.’ “Brothers, I may say to you with confidence about the patriarch David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. Being therefore a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that he would set one of his descendants on his throne, he foresaw and spoke about the resurrection of the Christ, that he was not abandoned to Hades, nor did his flesh see corruption.” (ESV)

    The Greek word Gehenna is translated “hell” or “the fires of hell,” and expresses the place of punishment for sinners. It is usually associated with the final judgment and depicted as being an eternal, unquenchable fire.

    Examples of Gehenna:

    Matthew 10:28
    And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. (NKJV)

    Matthew 25:41
    “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels …’ ” (NKJV)

    Another Greek term used to indicate hell or the “lower regions” is Tartarus. Like Gehenna, Tartarus also designates the place of eternal punishment.

    Example of Tartarus:

    2 Peter 2:4
    For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to chains of gloomy darkness to be kept until the judgment … (ESV)

    With so many references to Hell in the Bible, any serious Christian must come to terms with the doctrine. The passages are grouped in sections below to help us understand what the Bible has to say about hell.
    Punishment in Hell is Eternal

    Isaiah 66:24
    “And they will go out and look upon the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; their worm will not die, nor will their fire be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind.” (NIV)

    Daniel 12:2
    Many of those whose bodies lie dead and buried will rise up, some to everlasting life and some to shame and everlasting disgrace. (NLT)

    Matthew 25:46
    “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.” (NIV)

    Mark 9:43
    If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It’s better to enter eternal life with only one hand than to go into the unquenchable fires of hell with two hands. (NLT)

    Jude 7
    And don’t forget Sodom and Gomorrah and their neighboring towns, which were filled with immorality and every kind of sexual perversion. Those cities were destroyed by fire and serve as a warning of the eternal fire of God’s judgment. (NLT)

    Revelation 14:11
    “And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.” (NKJV)

    Hell is a Place of Separation from God

    2 Thessalonians 1:9
    They will be punished with eternal destruction, forever separated from the Lord and from his glorious power. (NLT)

    Hell Is a Place of Fire

    Matthew 3:12
    “His winnowing fan is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clean out His threshing floor, and gather His wheat into the barn; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.” (NKJV)

    Matthew 13:41–42
    The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will remove from his Kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. And the angels will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. (NLT)

    Matthew 13:50
    … throwing the wicked into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. (NLT)

    Revelation 20:15
    And anyone whose name was not found recorded in the Book of Life was thrown into the lake of fire. (NLT)

    Hell Is for the Wicked

    Psalm 9:17
    The wicked shall return to Sheol, all the nations that forget God. (ESV)

    The Wise Will Avoid Hell

    Proverbs 15:24
    The way of life winds upward for the wise, that he may turn away from hell below. (NKJV)

    We Can Endeavor to Save Others from Hell

    Proverbs 23:14
    Physical discipline may well save them from death. (NLT)

    Jude 23
    Rescue others by snatching them from the flames of judgment. Show mercy to still others, but do so with great caution, hating the sins that contaminate their lives. (NLT)

    The Beast, False Prophet, Devil and Demons Will Be Thrown into Hell

    Matthew 25:41
    “Then the King will turn to those on the left and say, ‘Away with you, you cursed ones, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his demons.’ ” (NLT)

    Revelation 19:20
    And the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who did mighty miracles on behalf of the beast—miracles that deceived all who had accepted the mark of the beast and who worshiped his statue. Both the beast and his false prophet were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur. (NLT)

    Revelation 20:10
    … and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. (ESV)

    Hell Has No Power Over the Church

    Matthew 16:18
    Now I say to you that you are Peter (which means ‘rock’), and upon this rock I will build my church, and all the powers of hell will not conquer it. (NLT)

    Revelation 20:6
    Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years. (NKJV)

    • Ambaa

      Wow, you certainly know a lot of Bible for disliking Christianity.

      What’s it to you? My belief is focus on Hinduism and being the best Hindu I can be. The Christians who behave rottenly will get their just desserts. Karma is perfect in its justice.

      • Arjun

        Thats because ive been dealing with all their insults and activities against hinduism all my life and im very aware of their plans to destroy india with all the separatists groups they are backing from Nagaland down to South of India.In Nagaland hindus are banned from celebrating their hindu festivals because of christian militant groups.I know all their missions which are active from each denomination of Christianity.Karma works in many ways but the most important fact is Hindus are meant to stand up against adharma and not walk away from doing their duty..

        • Ambaa

          And what is that duty?

          To kill them? To hate them? To complain about them?

          My heart breaks for these atrocities. And if I am face to face with injustice, I do my best to stand against it.

          But I also trust that Hinduism is much stronger than these hateful individuals. It can survive any attack. It is the Eternal Truth. Such a thing can never be destroyed.

          • Arjun

            ‘And what is that duty?To kill them? To hate them? To complain about them?’

            when did i say that ? so dont please put words in my mouth when all i did was bring up some truths of Christianity.Im talking about the truth and the duty to bring it up.Maybe its easy for you to ignore whats happening in india against Hindus and Hinduism but for the rest of us its not.

          • Ambaa

            I’m honestly trying to understand what you feel our duty in this situation is.

            In the position that I’m in, I feel like ignoring it is a good strategy. Attention hungry religions don’t like being ignored.

            Maybe I’m wrong. What do you think I should be doing?

  • Arjun

    ‘I think all religions fall victim to that in some places. It’s too tempting for men in power to try to control their followers using fear. But it is not the true faith for Hinduism or for Christianity.
    Reply’

    Aamba, true but show me where Hindus have done the same crimes against humanity all around the world on the level of Christianity for the last 2 thousand years.Just by equating both when Hinduism has done nothing at like that but itself has been a victim of Christianity itself shows you dont know much about the history of Christianity let alone the history of the Hindus.You should watch the movie Agora to get an idea how all ancient religions were destroyed with only Hinduism surviving..

    • Ambaa

      I believe in peace. I do not want to start pointing fingers and blaming people for the behavior of others who claim their religion. What Christians have done in India is NOT Christian. I am disgusted by their behavior. But Doug is right that he is not those Christians. He is practicing a much more authentic version of Christianity which does preach love. Christians who are deceitful to get conversions or are violent are not true Christians. I hate to make statements like that, but they simply are not.

      Please do not insult me by claiming that I don’t know my history. I most certainly do.

      • Arjun

        Well Aamba its not about insults but you do seem to want to ignore facts for some very odd reason.Hinduism is about discovering the truth objectively and not selecting what you want to hear.

        • Ambaa

          I believe in focusing on being the best Hindu I can be. I am not interested in spreading hate, fear, and anger (see Thursdays post for more on that!). Other religions can do what they want, I will continue to be a Hindu and I will love and forgive as necessary.

          • Arjun

            but who is talking about spreading hate, fear, and anger .For example you mentioned you haven’t hardly come across any quotes in the bible apart from one that mentions hell.I gave all the quotes but you ignored that but started pointing the finger at me for my dislike of Christianity .So who is being truthful here me for bring direct quotes or you for ignoring them.? Hinduism is about pursuing the truth and thats exactly what im doing so whats wrong with that under Hinduism.

          • Ambaa

            I just don’t really understand why we’re debating about Christianity. Neither of us is Christian. It’s certainly not an area of expertise for me.

            You showed me the passages about hell. I am inclined to think they were translated inappropriately or some other explanation, but that is because I lean towards believing that Christianity is a valid path up the mountain to enlightenment. It makes a lot of people very happy. Good for them. It does not make me happy. I am grateful that I have another option. It would take a lot of time and effort to examine the Biblical concept of hell. I have no interest whatsoever in doing that.

            But I am here to talk about Hinduism. I am not here to condemn Christianity.

            So again, I will work on being the best Hindu I can be and if certain Christians want to go hang themselves by being jerks, that’s up to them. Karma is perfect. I don’t really understand what it is that you want me to be doing differently.

  • Arjun

    Here is some of the activities of christian groups in india who have killed several Hindu swamis and gurus trying to protect Hinduism from being wiped off

    The Murder of Two Swamis

    http://www.hinduhumanrights.info/the-murder-of-two-swamis/

  • Ray Kaye

    Ambaa~

    I’m sure I will comment on the topic as soon as I can get away from juggling several things that are in the air for me at the moment. But suffice to say, you sure have posted some hot topics of late, and I wholeheartedly thank you for having provided the forum. I also thank the participants for having added both to the discussion and the differing viewpoints that, at the very least, make us think. This is one of my most treasured forums.

    However, can you once again post your address so one can contact you. I had it, but it was one of those juggling balls that I dropped… :(

    • Ambaa

      Definitely! Let me send you an email to the one that you have registered here, if that’s okay!

  • Arjun

    ‘I don’t really understand what it is that you want me to be doing differently.’

    Well im not telling u to do anything different but the only thing i will request dont equate Hinduism with the crimes of Christianity over the last 2 thousand years as something that all all religions fall victim to now and then which you said on this thread.If only you knew how Hinduism survived in the first place and its struggling against same forces then you would know be more fair in in your comments then just digressing it to just my dislike of Christianity.

    • Ambaa

      I think I will have to ponder this further and do a post about this idea of fighting adharma v.s. trying to focus on love and peace. It’s something that deserves some more thought.

      I definitely believe in fighting against injustice in front of me, but I feel rather helpless about injustice done thousands of miles away.

      I will continue to say that none of us are blameless. Bad things have been done in the name of Christianity. Bad things have also been done in the name of Hinduism. Maybe not to the same scale, but is does happen. I love Hinduism, but I’m not going to say that everyone who has ever claimed to be a Hindu has followed dharma correctly. They haven’t.

      I’ve said all I can say on this subject for now. I feel like I’m going in circles. So I will think about it some more and post something next week about what our duty in such cases is.

  • Doug

    Ambaa,

    You are right, the actaul Christian (or at least the Catholic) concept of Hell is not like it is depicted in movies and by radical preachers as a place of fire and torture. Hell is a realm that is purely absent of God. It is an eternity without God and the pain of that eternal separation can be compared to that of a “fiery furnace.” We believe that those who die in a state of mortal sin have chosen to go to Hell by not asking for forgiveness. Heaven is the opposite, a realm where you are eternally united with God. Heaven is an invitation, but you must choose to accept it. Catholics also believe you can be sent to Purgatory which is a temporary realm to purify you from venal sins (minor sins) if you aren’t quite yet ready for Heaven. The reason Christians say that Jesus is the way to Heaven is because sin is death and Jesus paid for sin by dying on the cross and he defeated death once and for all by rising from the grave. Jesus destroyed eternal DEATH (Hell), making Eternal LIFE (Heaven) an option. Although the Catholic Church does teach that Jesus is the true way to Heaven, she acknowledges that ultimately only God knows the state of your soul and it is between you and Him. Just to let you know, I’m not “shoving my religion down your throat” I’m simply clarifying and summarizing the Church’s actual teaching on Hell. :)

    Arjun,

    I do not understand why you are such a hateful person, or atleast coming across as one. If you want to have a true discussion you have to be open and polite. I cannot find one instance of you being polite. Even when I made a gesture of peace to resolve the discussion on the other post, you still remained snarky and hateful and continued to attack my faith. Amidst my heated debate with Ray, he continued to be polite and respectful aside from a few (understandably) snide comments. :) I understand that people who claim to be Christians have done some horrible things over the centuries but every religion has people who twist it’s message for their own personal motives. Christianity is NOT responsible for the actions of people claim they follow it. Their actions alone show that they are not true followers.

    • Pratheesh

      “Christianity is NOT responsible for the actions of people claim they
      follow it. Their actions alone show that they are not true followers.”
      Doug,Please tell me then how can you justify that Catholics considering Francis Xavier who was responsible for numerous murders of Hindus in Goa just to spread Catholicism as a saint.So is he a true follower of God and if not by your own statement,then why he is still considered as saint and worshiping him.

  • Arjun

    Here we go so its become more about me than the facts.Its about my manners or how polite i should be or not.That trick of ignoring that facts is not going work with me because ive debated with many christians before…Like I said before ive not even started on Christianity because that will totally digress this whole thread into a total different direction.So tell me which God are you talking about that decides if you soul is prepared to go to heaven ? the one in bible or Lord Krishna or Lord Rama ? What happens with Hindus who believe deities ect

    And what if you dont believe christ died for any sins or even existed then what does this God do ? And dont tell me its between god and you as the answer because i always hear that one to get out of it

  • Arjun

    And lets forget Doug it was you also trying to promote that myth of a st thomas being killed by hindus and ignoring facts that have long debunked that myth.But that’s a standard myth thats often used by christian missionaries in India active in trying to convert hindus.so that makes me wonder why you are hanging around on this hindu site anyway trying to white wash Christianity’s past and its true beliefs whats your real agenda ? Do believe Krishna and Durga are the same God as the one you believe in ?

  • Ray Kaye

    Testing, one, two, tree. Hello, this thing on? Can you hear me now? Yello?

    • Doug

      Looks like this page switched over to the comment system the other blogs have… but now our conversation is gone. Arjun? Wanna rant again? :)

      • Ambaa

        Oh dear. They told me that things would not be lost in the move to the new system. Let’s give it a day or two and see if it comes back. If not, I can contact the admin.

      • Arjun

        There’s nothing to rant about when one just can pick up the bible and see the rants themselves against other gods and religions.So tell me is God in the bible as the same as Krishna and lord Rama or Durga mata ?

      • Arjun

        as this thread is about marriage equality then this makes interesting
        read on gays from the bible.im sure doug will entertain us with his
        spins and cover ups lol

        Genesis

        “And Noah awoke from his wine, and knew what his younger
        son had done unto him.”

        What did Ham do? Did he just look at his naked father or was there something more to it than that?
        Some commentators have suggested that Ham committed homosexual rape on his drunken father, and that
        this was why Ham’s descendants were eternally punished with slavery. 9:24

        This verse doesn’t say what the Sodomites did to make them such exceedingly
        great sinners, though most bible believers equate “Sodomite” with homosexual. (But
        see Ezekiel 16:49, which claims the sins of Sodom were pride,
        gluttony, sloth, greed, and failure to help the poor.) 13:13

        The two angels that visit Lot wash their feet, eat, and are sexually irresistible to Sodomites. 19:1-5

        God kills everyone in Sodom and Gomorrah. This was because, so say the
        Christian Right, some homosexuals lived there (See 19:4-5). 19:24-25

        “And Sarah saw the son of Hagar the Egyptian, which she had born unto Abraham, mocking.”

        What did Sarah see that disturbed her so much?

        Jonathan Kirsch suggests in The
        Harlot by the Side of the Road that the “play” between Isaac and Ishmael may have been of a
        sexual nature, noting that the same word is used to describe the behaviour of
        Ishmael and Isaac as is used in 26:8 to describe Isaac’s fondling of Rebekah. 21:9

        After God killed Er, Judah tells Onan to “go in unto thy brother’s wife.” But “Onan
        knew that the seed should not be his; and … when he went in unto his brother’s wife … he
        spilled it on the ground…. And the thing which he did displeased the Lord; wherefore he slew
        him also.” This lovely Bible story is seldom read in Sunday School, but it is the basis of many
        Christian doctrines, including the condemnation of masturbation, homosexuality, and birth control.
        38:8-10

        Leviticus

        Homosexual acts are an abomination to God. 18:22

        If a man has sex with another man, kill them both. 20:13

        Deuteronomy

        Women are not to wear men’s clothing and vice versa — it’s an “abomination unto the Lord.” 22:5

        God says not to bring any whore, sodomite, or dog into the house of the Lord. For “these things are an abomination
        to the Lord.” Sodomites and dogs are biblical names for homosexuals. 23:17-18
        Ruth

        Ruth loved Naomi as Adam loved Eve. (Or so say the folks at WouldJesusDiscriminate.org)
        1:14

        1 Samuel

        Were David and Jonathan gay? 18:1-4, 19:2, 20:41

        The special relationship between Jonathan and David. 20:3-14

        Saul is angered by his son’s homosexual affair with David and says, “do not I know that thou has chosen the son
        of Jesse to thine own confusion of thy mother’s nakedness?” 20:30

        Saul sets an example for Christian parents that discover
        that they have a homosexual child: try to kill the child and his or her
        lover.
        20:31-33

        2 Samuel

        David loved Jonathan more than women. (And he loved a lot of women!) 1:26

        1 Kings

        “There were also sodomites in the land: and they did according to all the abominations….”

        God shows his homophobia by calling gay people “sodomites” and their sexual relations “abominations.” 14:24

        Asa “did that which was right in the eyes of the LORD” by expelling homosexuals (or “sodomites”, as the
        good book calls them). 15:12

        Jehoshaphat “did that which was right in the eyes of the Lord” and “took” the homosexuals (sodomites) “out
        of the land,” or as the RSV says, “he exterminated” them. 22:43, 46

        2 Kings

        Were Jehu and Jehonadab gay? 10:15-17

        Josiah, with God’s approval, broke down the houses of the sodomites. 23:7

        Isaiah

        “They declare their sin as
        Sodom, they hide it not. Woe unto their soul!”
        The biblical god just doesn’t seem to care
        much for homosexuals. And he gets especially upset when “they hide it not.”
        3:9

        Daniel

        “Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire
        of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all.”

        Matthew

        What was the relationship between the centurion and his slave? Were they a gay couple? If so, Jesus didn’t seem to mind.
        8:5-13

        “There are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother’s womb.”
        Is Jesus talking about homosexuals here? 19:12

        Luke

        Increase your chance of being raptured:
        Pray to be gay! 17:34-35

        John

        Was Jesus gay?

        “There was leaning on Jesus’ bosom one of his disciples, whom Jesus loved.” 13:23-25

        “The disciple standing by, whom he loved” 19:26

        “The disciple whom Jesus loved following; which also leaned on his breast at supper” 21:20

        Acts

        Was the eunuch that Philip baptized gay? 8:26-38

        Romans

        With his usual intolerance, Paul condemns homosexuals (including lesbians). This is the only clear reference to
        lesbians in the Bible. 1:26-28

        Homosexuals (those “without natural affection”) and their supporters (those “that have pleasure in them”) are
        “worthy of death.” 1:31-32

        1 Corinthians

        Paul lists ten things that will keep you out of heaven, including homosexuality and being
        “effeminate.” 6:9-10

        1 Timothy

        Homosexuals (those “that defile themselves with mankind”) are included on
        the list of lawless, disobedient,
        unholy, and profane people. 1:10

        2 Timothy

        In the last days people will become evil, “without natural affection.” Fundamentalist
        say that this refers to homosexuals. 3:3

        Jude

        God sent “eternal fire” on the people of Sodom and Gomorrah for “going after strange flesh.”
        7-8

        Revelation

        Are the 144,000 men that are “not defiled by women” homosexuals? Are only gay men to be saved? 14:1-4

        “Dogs [homosexuals?], sorcerers, whoremongers, idolaters” and along with anyone who ever told a lie will not enter
        the heavenly city. 22:15

        • Doug

          Is the God of Israel the same as Lords Krishna, Ram, and other pagan gods? Short answer: no. Longer answer: There is only one God. I know some Hindus claim they’re “henotheists” and that their many gods are different aspects of one supreme god and I suppose that’s more plausibly the same God but there is still a major heresy in that ideology. But generally when both of us refer to “God” I’d imagine we’re referring to the same concept.
          I’m defending Christianity, not trying to make it compatible with Hinduism because it’s not. Truth is not subjective, therefore it makes no sense to regard other religions as equal to your own.

          Most of these quotes seem to simply affirm the fact that homosexuality is condemned and I don’t deny that. Homosexuality is a sin, but so is masturbation, pornography, contraception, divorce, polygamy, fornication, etc. We’re all sinners and the Catholic philosophy is to hate the sin but love the sinner. I have gay friends and their sexual orientation and my beliefs in no way get in the way of our friendship.

          The sin of Onan is at times used to defend the condemnation of sexual sins but is not the “basis” for them.

          You seem to have a twisted perception of what “love” actually is. Love is not sexual. Sex is an EXPRESSION of love meant for a husband and a wife. The love between David and Jonathan was not sexual, a version of the contemporary “bros before hoes” you could say ;).

          What in the world would make you believe that the centurion and his servant were gay? Look up the definition of love dude, do you love your mother? I suppose that’s incestual?

          The beloved disciple is John. Jesus loved all of His apostles as they were chosen by God. John being the youngest, may have gotten more of Jesus’ attention than did the others. He was not “gay for him.” The nerve of you… Jesus loves us all including you. That does not mean He wants to stick it to you Arjun. I feel sorry for a man who does not know the meaning of love.

          Paul does not condemn homosexuals, he condemns homosexuality. The idea of sexual identity and declaring that “I am a homosexual” or “I am a heterosexual” is a modern concept and would’ve been foreign to Paul and everyone else of the time. Acts were considered homosexual, not people.

          Not everything Jesus ever said and did are recorded in the Gospels (John 21:25). Just because Jesus wasn’t documented to have ever explicitly said anything on homosexuality doesn’t mean he condones it.

          Lastly, you need to understand WHY the Church is against gay marriage. Modern society has forgotten what marriage it and views it as a bond of love and love alone. Gay marriage is a contradiction in terms. Marriage is between one man and one woman (something Jesus DOES explicitly affirm). Marriage must be free, total, faithful, and fruitful, if all 4 elements aren’t present (as in gay marriage), it isn’t marriage. It is a gift from God as a foretaste of Heaven, it’s not a civil right. I refer you to another Patheos blog post: http://www.patheos.com/blogs/badcatholic/2013/04/the-difficulty-with-engaging-gay-marriage.html

          In terms of legal marriage you could say I support civil unions as I do believe gay couple should get the tax breaks and legal benefits of a marriage but it still shouldn’t be a marriage in and of itself.

          Don’t bother accusing me of “hating gays” or being a “homophobe” and a “bigot.” I love everyone, my gay friends are amazing, and having a differing opinion is not what makes someone a bigot.

          • Arjun

            There is only one god? What a laughable comment! No there are not. This is typical monotheist arrogance. If monotheism is superior to polytheism, then atheism is superior to monotheism. Right?

            If homosexuality is a sin then that’s hardly good news for Christianity since ‘celibate’ Catholic priests are known to have this orientation. Indeed Christianity itself encourages homosexuality with its misogynist attitude, right back to when it blames Eve for being tempted (well if Adam was such a man he didn’t have to listen to her did he?). It is no wonder that in more recent years Jesus has become a gay icon. And who can forget the eunuchs who were an essential part of that first Christian superpower, the Byzantine empire? Or right into the castrati who pioneered opera? Yes that’s right, these men without testicles existed right into the twentieth century and while they are known for singing opera, the institution actually began in singing praises to that angry monotheistic demiurge known as god, who cannot decide whether Jesus is his son or if god and that equally non-existent Jesus (who is just a myth, revamped version of Mithras, Dionysus and Osiris) is the same as the father. DNA test maybe?

            Sex is an expression of love between man and wife? Hmm I’m not sure how that helps Christianity. Abraham took Hagar as his wife because Sarah wouldn’t conceive. Admittedly he could hardly have used IVF but then he sent her and Ishmael away into the desert. God had no problem with that! Jacob married Leah and then Rachel. Both were daughters of his own uncle Laban. If these behaviour patterns are so incompatible with Christianity why are they not ripped out of the Bible?

            If Jesus never explicitly condemned homosexuality, then it’s a bit far fetched to say he didn’t condone it. Even Judas kissed him, hardly much evidence to say that Jesus had a problem with men sharing their saliva with each other. Jesus never explicitly condemned spicy food but would that mean we could infer he would castigate chicken vindaloo? In any case Jesus never existed. There is no evidence for his existence. The gospels cannot even agree on where he was born. The Gnostics (original Christians before they were wiped out by the Literalists) realised he was a myth just like Mithras. The findings at Nag Hammadi show that portions of the Bible were not even put into the final text as agreed by Council of Nicea. What sort of joke religion is this that has to burn and destroy inconvenient facts like the Gospel of Thomas?
            If gay marriage and homosexuality would have seemed strange to the apostles so would modern concepts of human rights. I mean nowhere does Jesus condemn slavery. Indeed he urges slaves to obey masters. He came to preserve the Law which mean the legal codes of the Old Testament where slavery is taken as normal. The idea of democracy and human rights would have seemed very odd to the writers who invented the Jesus myth. You are right in saying marriage is not a civil right. The inventors of Jesus did not even believe in civil rights. What were they going to do? Start a CND style protest march against the gladiators in the arena? They didn’t even have a problem with polygamy which is why Paul tells women to keep their mouths shut.

            As to loving someone’s mother making them incestual well we all know what Sigmund Freud thought, and before that what Oedipus did with his own mother Jacosta. It depends on interpretation and what is in the original Greek text, which is even more funny because the non-existent Jesus spoke Aramaic. When we look at Christianity one is struck at just how much the celibate priesthood was rife with homosexuals, how nuns competed for sex work with prostitutes and the disgusting misogyny which culminated in a craze of with burning right into the nineteenth century.

          • Doug

            I’ve debated lots of people with many different ideologies on a wide range of religious topics but you are the most hateful. Even the atheist who despises religion is more decent than you. You’re making the nice Hindus look bad, no religion preaches hate Arjun, and I mean that in the nicest way possible.

            There is plenty of evidence of Jesus’s existence, boatloads more than the existence of your blue, effeminate, friend Krisna who lifts mountains with his many arms. Way more evidence than Mr. Elephant-Head Ganesha, who curses the moon for laughing at him when he broke his stomach from falling off his pet rat. I’m glad there’s no such thing as the bloodthirsty demon goddess, Kali. I’m glad I don’t find satisfaction in praying to anything from cows to coconuts.
            If Jesus never died on the cross and rose from the grave, then an even “greater” miracle happened: 12 relatively uneducated fisherman changed the world forever and were eventually martyred all to protect a “lie.”

            Congratulations on spending time to study up on every Christian conspiracy known to man. Just remember to thank the Catholic Church next time you go to the doctor, for starting the world’s first hospitals. Also thank her for your treatment which was likely a product of the scientific method, a development of the Catholic Church. If you ever send or have sent your kids to college, remember to thank the Church for creating the college system.

            The Truth can be uncomfortable, Arjun, so continue studying those crap theories of yours while I praise the God who gives you that option. You are loved (even if I have hard time doing it right now), loved so much that you will never comprehend. The day you realize that may be too late. Good bye.

          • Comrade Ray

            Doug, you wouldn’t know truth if it ran up and bit you on the ass. Your only truth comes from the form called brainwashing.

            There may be proof of Jesus, but there is more myth than proof. Your attempt to inflame the conversation with hate towards the whole of Hinduism, reveals the true you and lays great doubt as to your claims of having debated “lots of people”… Your vitriol has simply taken the vile turn that is the real makeup of you. You thought that you could come here and roll over everyone with your myopic hate for everything un-Christian, un-Catholic, but you got your pants taken down and soundly spanked. You wear an evil disguise, indeed, but you are your own satan.

            Ah, the “Catlick church this, the catlick church that”…except I grew up in one, so I know that truth, very well. We all can sit and boast about this religion and that religion, sure, but when you come right down to it Dougie my boy, you can’t hide the hate.

          • http://www.facebook.com/people/Zoe-Ellen-Brain/1036085884 Zoe Ellen Brain

            One question – how many gods are Christians supposed to believe in? One big-G “God” obviously (though even then with 3 aspects), but what about all the lesser gods? The principalities, thrones, powers, seraphs, cherubs, archangels, angels,, demons… there must be thousands of them.

            Look at the first commandment – but even then, there’s 2 versions:

            “You shall have no other gods before me” under the Philonic division used by Hellenistic Jews, Greek Orthodox and Protestants except Lutherans.

            “You shall have no other gods before me. You shall not make for yourself an idol” under the Augustinian division used by Roman Catholics and Lutherans.

            So obviously there are other gods, it says so in the Bible. You’re just not supposed to worship them. You must still believe they exist.

          • Doug

            There is only One God. All of the “lesser gods” you listed are essentially different ranks of angels. Angels are lesser creatures than humans because they don’t have free will. Catholics get accused by Protestants of “worshiping” Mary and the saints but we don’t worship them, we venerate them and pray WITH them, not TO them.

            The text of the 10 Commandments is the same, Catholics, Protestants, and Jews all have different NUMBERING for them.

          • http://www.facebook.com/rajeshkumar.r.14 Pratheesh

            Hey Doug, I need a reply from you regarding the below statement made by one of your saint.

            “St.
            Francis Xavier, after whom many educational institutions are named in
            India, feverishly declared, “When I have finished baptizing the people, I
            order them to destroy the huts in which they keep their idols; and I
            have them break the statues of their idols into tiny pieces, since they
            are now Christians. I could never come to an end describing to you the
            great consolation which fills my soul when I see idols being destroyed
            by the hands of those who had been idolaters,” (from The Letters and
            Instructions of Francis Xavier, 1993, pp 117-8).”

            tell me this
            guy deserves to be called as a saint.if yes is your answer then i should
            say catholic church and Christianity in general are intolerable and
            this is the they are spreading love.love of hatred.

          • Doug

            Looking past all the miracles and great works of Francis Xavier that made him a Saint, yes, St. Francis Xavier is absolutely right in this statement. I don’t see anything wrong or “hateful” in asking new Christians to destroy the false idols of their former faith. He didn’t force people to convert. It fills his soul with consolation because it means he succeeded in bringing those hearts to Christ.

          • Comrade Ray

            Oh, this is just like the taliban playbook….hmmmm…..what a coincidence……….

          • http://www.facebook.com/rajeshkumar.r.14 Pratheesh

            Doug,If you want I can give you a lots of facts regarding the methods of torture this fake saint had adopted to convert the people.The people who had fled from Goa because of murderer Francis still keeps the history intact of that torture.Nobody had converted to christanity voluntarily.

          • http://www.facebook.com/rajeshkumar.r.14 Pratheesh

            Taliban and Catholic church has everything similar when it comes to intolerance.you people had spread christ love by killings of numerous innocents.what a love??

          • Doug

            “Most people don’t hate what the Catholic Church teaches… they hate what they think the Catholic Church teaches.” -Archbishop Fulton Sheen

          • Arjun

            yeh true what think they hate but if they knew what it really teaches the would even hate it more

          • Arjun

            At last the cat is out of the bag! You have just proven that beneath the sweet sickly smiles the Church is nothing more than the same vampire parasite it always was. AS Nietzsche said:

            “Not every one may be a Christian: one is not “converted” to Christianity—one must first be sick enough for it.”

            Oh play me the world’s smallest violin Doug! How am I hatefull? You just don’t like it when Hindus argue back and refuse to acknowledge the superiority of your depressing cult surrounding the death of a non-existent carpenter boy. In any case the idea is sick. Have our sins forgiven through Jesus? What is this vicarious liability? Nothing more than pathological condition on a par with mindless uniformed automatons goose stepping through North Korea in praise of their long- dead leader. North Korean communism and Christianity after all are both obsessed with worshipping dead people, with the obvious difference that the dictator of North Korea actually existed. But don’t worry Doug. He came from a Protestant family.

            12 fishermen did not change the world. One was a tax collector. In any case they didn’t exist. 12 disciples, and 12 tribes. Notice the similarity Doug? It’s myth. It was how ancient cultures work until the oppressive Church snuffed them out through violence and forcible conversion. The world’s first hospitals. Oh excuse me but the Hippocratic oath is named after the figure from ancient Greece. You should thanks ancient Hindus for decimal numbers without which you would still be using Roman numerals which didn’t even have a ‘zero’. Try doing algebra or calculus with that. With no zero, no modern maths and engineering. So no industrial revolution. No wonder why the triumph of the intolerant faith of Christ and especially the Catholic Church is known as the Dark Ages.

            You don’t want to pray to cows or coconuts? Ok fine. We all make choices. But I don’t see how a death cult that castigated the Jews for 2000 years for killing god is much of an alternative. Let’s see now, worshipping cows or an ideology which led to the gas chambers in Auschwitz. Do you really think the cow worshipping is all that bad in comparison? And I didn’t even get onto how both Catholic and Protestant churches supported the Third Reich. Hitler the good Catholic boy paid his church dues until he shot himself (shame about the pet Alsatian). Himmler modelled the SS on the Jesuits.

            The Vatican helped Nazi war criminals escape to Argentina, where the present Pope was busy having drinks with the military junta who were torturing, raping and murdering innocent people. Then add to that the witch burning craze caused by the Vatican’s own misogynist work ‘Hammer of the Witches’, Thirty Year War, support for the prosecution of Alfred Dreyfus, rape of young Irish women in the Magdalene Homes, support for sending British orphans to Catholic care homes (where they were sodomised by Catholic priests) to boost Australia’s white population, support for General Franco, support for Salazar’s Portuguese fascist state in Africa, banning condoms so that AIDS and herpes spreads, and you have a pretty depressing ‘contribution’ to world civilisation.

            This rant against Krishna, Ganesh and Kali is a bit weird. I thought you could not bear witness to ‘false’ gods. Yet here you are all worried about them. How is Krishna effeminate. Ganesha did not have a pet rat. Is Kali any more bloodthirsty than a religion like Christianity which after all has the blood of innocent Jews on its hands through 2000 years of persecution, millions of women and girls burnt at the stake, millions of other killed by the Inquisition? How can anyone call that track record civilised? What sort of supreme being would support this behaviour?

            Yes indeed Doug, the Truth really does hurt which is why Christianity is losing so many adherents who realise they don’t need this sick fantasy any more. As Voltaire said all those years ago:

            “Down with the Accursed One” i.e. the Church

          • Comrade Ray

            Doug said—> “…”…I don’t seem to recall this “ass-whooping.” I do however remember uneducated opinions and loose morals….”

            *** Ah, Doug…perhaps you can recall the “ass-whooping” just above! Wow, you’ve got to admit, Arjun sure takes the cake, huh? Talk about uneducated opinions and loose morals….they are surly pointed out in christianity.
            Better quit while you can, Doug, you’re no match for this.

          • Arjun

            Comrade Ray, I think he’s ‘doug’ his own grave( pun intended) just hope is doesn’t have a resurrection aftewards.We dont want a zombiefied doug on the loose lol

          • Comrade Ray

            Actually, Arjun, it’s just plain ‘Ray’. (I was forced to use another address set up for Russian collectibles when this forum decided to go caddy-whompus on us a few days ago. :)

            I must say, you are a gift of knowledge to this forum, I would have to go back to college just to stay knee high to the amount of historical knowledge you’ve brought here. Clearly, Doug has been outclassed. That usually befits the average walking christian zombie, rambling on in monotones, disregarding anything non-christian. But I know this personally, being shut out by my own sister over 10 years ago who told me she can’t talk to me anymore, for I am a heathen and can’t be saved because I don’t believe in christianity. That’s proof enough for me, of christian type love for all of God’s children.

            The anti-Hindu, anti-Hindu God display hardly shakes any of my trees, as I can see the shallow roots of that mentality who simply can not delve deeply into the human mind and soul to understand any of this. It’s a real shame that some people walk the earth, totally devoid of anything resembling individual thought, instead being guided by reams of regurgitated mumbo jumbo, as if it hasn’t been disproven over and over. The christian slogan, ” we are better than you”, need not be spoken, as actions speak louder than words. These types of christian zombies are clearly on par with their muslim extremist counterparts, who be glad to talk sweetly while stabbing you in your back.

            Yay to the LGBT folks of the world who know what love really is, because they’ve had to knife through centuries of hate in order to prove it to the so far ….. blind masses…. being led by the seemingly unrelenting christian soldiers, who pour millions of dollars into roadblocks like California’s Prophate, in order to try and stop LGBT people from simply living and loving.

            God knows what this world needs right now, is more love.

            Funny how the bigots fail to realize that their mail is sorted and delivered, store shelves are stocked, groceries are bagged and carried out, food is prepared and served to us all, by LGBT people, every day. In so doing, they wake up to the same alarm clock, dress and go to work like the rest of humanity, earning a living and paying taxes. If they are paying taxes and not getting the same rights as straight folks, that’s clearly a violation of the 13th Amendment, just as the 14th Amendment. It’s amazing to this American, that even prisoners can marry, people who have violated the public trust as well as the law, and LGBT people are denied this right, not via anything illegal, but only because of who they happen to have been born as.

            The ice is slowly melting, however. And we who have marched in the past for black civil rights back in the day, will hopefully see all American’s everywhere..soon have their full and equal rights restored, as it should have been decades ago.

          • Ambaa

            My great thanks to both Arjun and Ray. You guys are quite eloquent and much better debaters than I!

          • Doug

            Just to let you know, Doug isn’t even close to my real name. It’s just the first random alias that popped in my head. Nice puns though :)

          • Doug

            I find it interesting that (against all evidence) you continue to say Jesus of Nazareth didn’t exist. Forget the divinity and miracles, this was a real 1st century Jewish Man who had a sizeable following until he was executed by the Romans. Of course, I as a Christian, see Him as much more than that. And I find it laughable that you say He doesn’t exist because I was actually with Jesus Christ, in the flesh, just Tuesday night in the Blessed Sacrament.

            I only did the spiel on the Hindu gods not because I believe or validate their existence but to point out how ridiculous I find a belief in them to be. <– I'm pretty sure I know your response to that comment so save yourself the time. :)

            P.S. Ganesha did have a pet rat.
            http://www.redbubble.com/people/ashishagarwal74/works/2579639-the-hindu-god-ganesha-with-his-pet-rat-on-a-wall-sculpture

          • Arjun

            How funny! What evidence? Even the English translation of Josephus shows that his supposed ‘evidence’ was a later insertion that is totally out of sync with the rest of the rendition.

            You were with Jesus Christ in the flesh last Tuesday? Oh please! Drinking wine and having breadcrumbs is hardly proof now is? No wonder Christianity is full of such silly ideas. It’s interesting how you now blame the Romans for killing Jesus when Christians have been blaming the Jews for the last 2000 years. Gospel of John even calls them Satan’s spawn. What a vile religion that led directly to the Holocaust. Do you find that laughable? If so how about you read the diaries of Anne Frank. Or visit Auschwitz in devoutly Catholic Poland.

            What’s this obsession with Ganesha having a pet rat? You don’t even believe in Ganesha yet you seem keen to find ‘evidence’ he has a rat. Did God have a pet snake who talked? After all how was Eve tempted to eat the fruit of the tree which this supreme being had put there and then even more stupidly created a talking snake to tempt Eve with? How is this not ridiculous. And it gets worse. God finds all mankind wicked so wiped them out in a flood. But Noah is righteous, yet he gets drunk and walks about with no clothes on. Talk about irresponsible and Saturday night ‘chav’ culture! Then Lot has sex with his daughters. Abraham disowns Hagar and Ishmael. Is this some degenerate animal civilisation? Jesus curses a fig tree for not having fruit. What an idiot! Even Neolithic farmers knew about crop cycles. But here is god manifest on earth and he cannot even understand the life cycle of flowering plants which he created along with the talking snake!

          • Pratheesh

            Doug,you dont have any right to call Arjun hateful.he just presented some facts which has been difficult for you to digest because it is questioning the authenticity of your religion.Arjun has the right to do it.your arrogance has been visible from the statements of yours regarding true God.

          • Comrade Ray

            Dougie, Dougie, Dougie….you are so brainwashed. I’ve really got to laugh when you first posted here (at the top), asking Arjun if he wanted to rant with you again. You’d thought you had enough of an ass-whooping from the last thread! Gotta love it when they keep coming back for more!

            Um, what happens then, Doug, when the rest of the population doesn’t give a hoot what Jesus said, or the bible said? Just like the abortion thread, you try to pull the wool over everyone’s eyes by pretending your religion is superior and the rest are pagan. Asinine assumption on your part, as well as completely arrogant.

            I understand WHY the Christians are against marriage equality and LGBT, it’s because they are bigots. THere is no such thing as gay marriage, it’s marriage equality. I know, I know…. what about marrying your chicken and multiple wives. If anyone wants to challenge that in court, more power to them, besides, chickens can consent, so that’s pretty much a draw.

            ” There is only one God”…. yeah, so long as that God walks out of your bible and no one else lays claim. As far as Jesus sticking it to anyone, it’s not Jesus doing the sticking, it’s folks like you who pretend to shake hands with one hand with the lovey-dovey attitude, all the while shoving a dagger in the back at the same time.

            “…Marriage must be free, total, faithful, and fruitful, if all 4 elements aren’t present (as in gay marriage), it isn’t marriage. It is a gift from God as a foretaste of Heaven, it’s not a civil right. .”

            *** Horseshit.

            You can define your marriage in any terms you like, but secular society doesn’t define any of that in those terms. Get real. Marriage is not a gift from God. If you read your damn history, marriage started out due to property rights. It wasn’t until later on that Christians decided to hijack it. Show me in any state contract where any of that mumbo-jumbo of yours is a requirement of marriage and I will concede. I can’t possibly explain your lame-brained notion that LGBT love, isn’t love.

            If anything, you are the one who doesn’t know what love is. So stop pissing on out shoes and try to tell us it’s raining.

          • Doug

            I don’t seem to recall this “ass-whooping.” I do however remember uneducated opinions and loose morals.

            Hinduism is, by definition, a pagan and a heathen religion… it isn’t necessarily something that should offend you.

            Bigot: : a person who is obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices; especially : one who regards or treats the members of a group (as a racial or ethnic group) with hatred and intolerance. – Merriam Webster
            ^Well I am devoted to my opinion (aren’t we all?) but I seem to be missing the prejudice, hatred, and intolerance… So how exactly am I a bigot?

            Marriage began when God created man and woman for each other’s companionship and to “be fruitful and multiply.”

            I never once said or implied that homosexual love isn’t real love. I said that sex does not equate to love as Arjun and much of society seems to think.

            I CHOSE to be Catholic, I wasn’t indoctrinated, so I don’t see how I was “brainwashed.”

            I don’t hate.

            Don’t pretend like you know me… at all.

            “I grew up in one, so I know that truth, very well.” <<< Well here's the reason why YOU got so riled up in this. You must be an ex-Catholic who unfortunately had a bad experience with the Church so now you have a grudge and you think debating me somehow makes you justified.

          • Comrade Ray

            “…I don’t seem to recall this “ass-whooping.” I do however remember uneducated opinions and loose morals….”

            I know, Doug, it must have taken you by such surprise, that much of it went right over your head. But I’ll get to the ” morals” issue a bit later.

            ” Hinduism is, by definition, a pagan and a heathen religion… it isn’t necessarily something that should offend you….”

            *** Not in the least. Considering the bulk of the ignorant fools fall on your side of the fence, anyway. Talking about loose morals, want to explain to the folks here how Adam and Eve had sons and daughters and then all of a sudden the earth became populated? Seems like a whole lotta be-gettin’ and be-gatten’ under the disguise of incest, huh? How do you manage that truth?

            “…Bigot: : a person who is obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices; especially : one who regards or treats the members of a group (as a racial or ethnic group) with hatred and intolerance. – Merriam Webster ^Well I am devoted to my opinion (aren’t we all?) but I seem to be missing the prejudice, hatred, and intolerance… So how exactly am I a bigot? …”

            *** Yes, that about sums you up, indeed. You are a bigot simply because you adhere to an opinion as defined by your church, through brainwashing and not of your own logic. Indoctrination has taken any objectivity away and has replaced it with any sense of the civil rights due individuals. Out of one side of your mouth you try to bullshit your way across these pages as one who follows a religion that is inclusive, when clearly it’s quite exclusive. I don’t see anyone except you being intolerant. May as well have come right out and said “gays can marry, so long as they marry the opposite sex.”

            “…Marriage began when God created man and woman for each other’s companionship and to “be fruitful and multiply….”

            *** Balderdash. Maybe in your limited mind, but take that to court and see how well you do with that daffynition of yours. Please, do show us where ( 2nd time I’ve asked you now) it is shown in any state law where “fruitful and multiply” is in the state interest. Once again, you are bullshitting your way through it all. SO, what about our senior citizens who can’t be fruitful and multiply? What about folks who can’t have a baby? Or don’t want to? Should all of those marriages be annulled?

            “….I never once said or implied that homosexual love isn’t real love. I said that sex does not equate to love as Arjun and much of society seems to think….”

            *** Funny you should bring that up. So LGBT love is real love, right? It’s just that in your world they can’t get married, right?

            Let’s take the sex thing for a moment. It appears as if you and your tribe object to the sex. Ok, fine. But, as I’ve said in a previous post, why is it that …. at any given moment, less than 10% of the population is LGBT….. that leaves over 90% of straight folks to be “fruitful and multiply” as they wish. ( And thank God too, for they help maintain the LGBT population by creating more! That’s one of my favourite parts!). So, what are you afraid of?

            Perhaps….. it’s the thought of…butt-sex? Ya gotta figure that some of those 90% do that a lot, aye? Maybe they’re marriages should be invalid, based upon your narrow moral judgements..

            And, still considering that 90%, how many of those straight folks own and operate the porn and the prostitution industry? Funny, you never see protester’s from the church with signs saying, “…GOD HATES STRAIGHT PEOPLE FOR PROMOTING PROSTITUTION AND PORNOGRAPHY!”

            You seem to be living somewhere near the land of the flying spaghetti monster, leaving the rest of us to live in the secular world, for as much as you’ve ignored that we’re still down here. :)

          • Lee

            Not to jump into the fray about this, but civil unions do not give the same legal benefits as marriage contracts. This is part of the problem. If people want to deny them the right to marry, then they ought to at least change the laws so that civil unions have the same benefits. However it is much simpler to just let them marry.

        • Ambaa

          Some of these seem like quite a stretch to me. O.o Jesus loving or hugging his disciples doesn’t have anything at all to do with being gay. Why would “dogs” be a reference to gayness? I’d need to go back to the original words and as I’ve said before, I have no interest in Biblical scholarship.

          I’ve heard it argued that most of the Bible’s objections to homosexual behavior was not because it was homosexual but because it was rape or violent/coerced in some way.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Zoe-Ellen-Brain/1036085884 Zoe Ellen Brain

    “Gender identity within Hinduism can be quite fluid. Gods have female
    aspects, Arjuna the great warrior was turned into a woman for a year.
    The stories abound of people switching genders in mythology.”

    However, switching genders is not approved of by the rather orthodox Hindu doctors I’ve had the misfortune to meet. It’s seen as a curse, and a mark of really terrible behaviour in a past life, by some.

    A friend of mine who’s Intersex was advised by a Hindu physician to slit their wrists and have another go at reincarnation. Then they were physically assaulted, and ejected from the clinic as being unmentionably evil and unclean.

    See http://www.usrf.org/news/010308-guevedoces.html for an example of natural sex change due to 5ARD. 17BHSD has similar, though not quite as complete, effects. 3BHSD can cause a change in either direction.

    • Comrade Ray

      A modern person must separate myth from reality, yet understand that myths have teachings and lessons.

      While I love the Hindu way of life, there certainly is a backward way to many individual aspects, held even by modern people living in the world of 2013. There are people in my own Temple who believe that no robbing or murder will ever take place in a Hindu Temple. Well, we can only hope and pray that that is true.

      As far as your friends’ story goes, I find it difficult to believe anyone would advise suicide, especially a doctor, who knows full well the consequences upon his or her own karma and reincarnation, but……. if you say so.

    • Ambaa

      How horrible! Yes, I think it is as Ray says that the behavior of individuals does not always live up to the ideal. And I’m coming at this from the perspective of a liberal Hindu, but certainly many Orthodox Hindus would not agree with me.

    • Ambaa

      Yes, unfortunately there is still a difference between the ideal and how people actually behave.

  • Comrade Ray

    Paramhansa Yogananda’s book, “KARMA & REINCARNATION”, tells a story which I will try to briefly sum up, paraphrasing as it were, from page23:

    He once met an old man in Seattle, who was very unhappy about the wicked ways of his son. Apparently the old man had turned into a grump and stated, ” We are all sinners and the Lord will burn our souls in hell-fire and brimstone!” To that, the Yogi replied, ” How could a man in death, becoming an invisible soul and be burned by fire in the material world?” The man got really angry when he was asked by the yogi if the old man got some sort of telegram from God saying we’d all go to hell. But to smooth over the discussion, the yogi told the old man that he could remedy the situation between him and the son, but first the old man needed to get some friends to tie the son up and toss him into the old mans oven.

    The old man replied, “Who could do such a thing, even to their own flesh and blood?”, shaking his fist at the yogi in fierce anger.

    “This is exactly what I wanted to tell you,…. How could you think the Divine Father, who has infinitely greater love than you…. would burn his own children with hell-fire and brimstone?”
    ***************************************************************************************
    Doug • 3 days ago

    Ambaa,

    “…You are right, the actual (ed.) Christian (or at least the Catholic) concept of Hell is not like it is depicted in movies and by radical preachers as a place of fire and torture. Hell is a realm that is purely absent of God.”

    *** There is no realm that is absented by God. God is everywhere, in flesh, in plants, in water, in stone. Even if there were a hell, it would be part and parcel of God.

    “…It is an eternity without God and the pain of that eternal separation can be compared to that of a “fiery furnace.” We believe that those who die in a state of mortal sin have chosen to go to Hell by not asking for forgiveness.”

    *** God is always with us. Those who die unrealized, are born again until they are.

    “… Heaven is the opposite, a realm where you are eternally united with God. Heaven is an invitation, but you must choose to accept it. Catholics also believe you can be sent to Purgatory which is a temporary realm to purify you from venal sins (minor sins) if you aren’t quite yet ready for Heaven….”

    *** Same book, page 20:

    “…Man, influenced by delusion, ascribes to the all-loving God, a vindictive spirit that creates hells and purgatories.” In essence, we punish ourselves.

    “….The reason Christians say that Jesus is the way to Heaven is because sin is death and Jesus paid for sin by dying on the cross and he defeated death once and for all by rising from the grave….”

    *** The reason Hindu’s don’t believe this voodoo stuff is because we know that God never dies and neither do we. We are eternal.

    “… Just to let you know, I’m not “shoving my religion down your throat” I’m simply clarifying and summarizing the Church’s actual teaching on Hell….”

    *** Here you go with more subtle bull-loney, Doug, it’s all the church’s fault, I’m just the messenger. You’re taking a crap on our lawn, then telling us you didn’t really do it. I mean, why clarify the church’s position if you don’t adhere to it and denounce our way of life? Why stand up and glorify your religion, the same religion who marches into other countries, destroys works of art, whole libraries and lobs off heads, and then deny that you are not still cramming it down someone’s throat? It’s absurd! Do you see any Hindu missionary’s doing this? Do you see any Hindu priests landing in Uganda to tell the government to set up a death penalty for gays and their family’s?

    • Doug

      Well it seems we’ve reached an impasse. I cannot prove to you that Heaven and Hell exist, while you can’t prove to me that karma and reincarnation exist.

      Btw, God yearns for us to be united with Him in Heaven but He cannot force us to do good and follow Him. Sin keeps us from salvation, forgiveness is available through Jesus Christ, but God cannot forgive that which we do not ask forgiveness for. He does not condemn us, we, through our own free will, condemn ourselves by refusing God’s love and invitation to Heaven.

      • Comrade Ray

        The impasse is yours, Doug.

        “…Btw, God yearns for us to be united with Him in Heaven but He cannot force us to do good and follow Him….”

        *** Or her? :) I am united with God, Doug, always was. God is everywhere, but you ignore that.

        “….Sin keeps us from salvation, forgiveness is available through Jesus Christ, but God cannot forgive that which we do not ask forgiveness for….”

        *** What keeps us here, in this life, in this unbroken chain of infinite incarnations, is ignorance. We’re not here to be punished, nor forgiven, we are here to become enlightened, moksha. Forgiveness is not the absence of ignorance, forgiveness teaches nothing.

        “…He does not condemn us, we, through our own free will, condemn ourselves by refusing God’s love and invitation to Heaven…..”

        *** You continually speak out of both sides of your mouth, Doug. On the one hand, you say he doesn’t condemn us then the other side of your mouth says he puts people in purgatory and in total damnation in hell. Which is it?

        I’ll tell you, neither. You can only regurgitate what has been driven into your mind for all of these years, with little or no introspection by your own mind. You are a robot Doug, with a steel trap, rusted shut at best, covering your mind. This is what we mean by ignorance, the constant drone of the regurgitated throw-up that repels any logical thought, but drums on and on. Not stupidity, but sheer ignorance, despite the reams of truth given you.

  • facebook

    gay behavior is found in many animal species……really??? can you please tell me any(except humans).
    Hindu scriptures do’nt say anything directly about transgenders. infact indirectly it supports same sex marriage, if you connotes to many meaning from the holy books.

    but indian society at large will not support this…..and i think same sex marriage is mostly because of lust and not love.
    i have no personal or any kind of problem to any homosexual but the problem is that their love is more like lust.

    can you please @a5ec27dca4786d88c4f65f14ef5de707:disqus say anything on this.

    • Ambaa

      Where do you get the idea that it is about lust? I have several friends in loving gay marriages, so I don’t see that borne out in real life.

      http://www.news-medical.net/news/2006/10/23/20718.aspx

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexual_behavior_in_animals

      http://www.humantruth.info/homosexuality.html

      I hope that someday Indian society can learn to accept homosexuality. I know it’s a long, uphill battle, but I see no reason why it shouldn’t move in that direction.

    • Lee

      “i think same sex marriage is mostly because of lust and not love.”

      If that were true then they would feel no need to marry.

      “i have no personal or any kind of problem to any homosexual but the problem is that their love is more like lust.”

      Actually you do have a problem with them simply by placing them into a catagory different from yourself. You are saying that heterosexuals can having loving relationships but homosexuals can’t. You probably do not know any same sex couples. I do and I do not see any evidence of your assertion..

      I do not know a whole lot about Hinduism but I believe that is teaches that we are all one on the spiritual level as evidenced by the greeting of “Namaste” (which I find to be a beautiful word). I think it is a natural instinct to make a distinction between “us and them” and probably had some evolutionary benefit for our species in the past but now it has become very toxic in a world where we have to deal with a wide variety of people who are not in our “in-group”

      I think one goal of spirituality is to break down those barriers. I would urge to think more about your position.

  • Ambaa

    I know, right? Why anyone would suggest suicide is beyond me! Karmicly suicide is so much worse!

  • Y. A. Warren

    For whatever reason, humans have been taught to fear what they don’t understand. As Yoda said, fear leads to anger, and anger leads to hate. I propose that we remove the phrase “fear of god(s)” from our vocabularies and replace it with awe in whatever we worship and otherwise experience as an opening to new spirits.

    • Ambaa

      Indeed. Although Yoda was quoting the Upanishads ;)

      • Y. A. Warren

        Thank you, Ambaa, for giving me this reference.


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