There Are No Reasons to Not Submit to Your Husband?

There Are No Reasons to Not Submit to Your Husband? February 23, 2018

Lori Alexander of The Transformed Wife is on a tear this morning. She’s trying to claim that there are no exceptions in the submission of women to their husbands. Take a quick look this morning.

A pile of beaten, abused, financially-abused, starved women would beg to differ. Submitting harder is no protection if you are married to an abusive man. You just enable him to abuse you even more. I am guessing that Lori has never really been physically abused in her life or she’s realize that her advice might end up with someone dead.

Even that walking meat bag of bad ideas Biblical Gender Roles is less toxic and criminal than Lori now.

If you are submitting and your husband orders you to do something that is criminal, immoral or harmful it is not upon you to obey no matter what she says.


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What Are Your Thoughts?leave a comment
  • She’s a walking contradiction of toxic ideas. She tells women it’s their choice to submit then also says women must submit in everything. She conveniently leaves out verse 21 calling all Christians to submit to one another because it doesn’t fit in her ideology. Her ideology is not only toxic, it’s also a bunch of legalistic man-made rules. She’s missing out on a real and personal relationship with God.

  • Tawreos

    I can’t see how there would be a problem in submitting, the people of Jonestown submitted to Jim Jones and everything turned out…oops never mind.

  • Tom Holliday, Rick Warren’s son-in-law, even accused those who ask about exceptions to submission of being “selfish”.

    Another problem I have noticed with this style of submission is that it promotes tribalism, in that the narrative of whomever you submit to dominates, and thus those of those outside the bubble must be dismissed. This means that, if the authority is racist, racism must be supported.

    I will also note the Milgram experiment: evidently, according to Lori, wives should apply the maximum “danger” voltage.

  • Nea

    Good one. I’m trying to google the name of the woman who went to jail for submitting to her husband’s order to speed home… while nursing… and in possession of a handwritten driver’s license. To be fair, her husband did admit he ordered her not to pull off to nurse (“I directed [her] to do what I thought was in [her] best interest”) and offered to go to jail for her because he’s the only one “allowed” to punish her. But the judge pointed out that she’s the one who actually committed the reckless act.

    Oh, here we go! She’s Catherine Nicole Donkers. http://old.post-gazette.com/localnews/20030808donkersp4.asp “When she eventually stopped at a Streetsboro toll booth, troopers said she refused to cooperate until she called her husband for permission.” Lori would be so proud!

  • Tawreos

    Feel so sorry for that woman and her baby

  • Nea

    it promotes tribalism, in that the narrative of whomever you submit to
    dominates, and thus those of those outside the bubble must be dismissed

    This dovetails with the personal experience I have had with a couple who believes this. The husband seemed to be of the opinion that all “good women” submitted to men, that it was then the men’s job to protect the women from a cruel, vicious world.

    If you were not a woman in submission to someone, he therefore felt entirely justified in being cruel and vicious to prove his point.

  • Annerdr

    I wonder if going to jail will broaden her horizons.

  • Jennny

    My knowledge of psychology is small, but isn’t it true that spousal abuse is about power and domination, getting your kicks from causing both physical and emotional pain? Submitting more and more just feeds the abuser’s addiction to it and it’s never going to stop. The personality of the abuser won’t change magically or miraculously through prayer, some lengthy in depth, therapy may do it. If there are children, their lives will be affected for decades by seeing and experiencing abuse in their powerless early years.

  • AFo

    She never explains what she means by “submit more” or “submit harder.” How exactly do you quantify submission? What is the unit of measurement? I don’t mean to sound like I’m making light of it, but if you’re already obeying your husband’s every command and submitting to him in every way, and he’s still abusing you, how do you even begin to “submit more?” This has nothing to do with God or Jesus, and everything to do with one petty woman’s quest to make herself seem better than everyone else.

  • Cynthia

    Hopefully she could get some decent counseling there, although I might not hold my breath.

  • Cynthia

    Yes.

    It can also be about bullying. Bullies don’t respect weakness. I’ve had a number of cases where someone who treats his wife like garbage will suddenly act meek and submissive in court.

    In some cases, it can also be something that they thought was acceptable and that nobody ever challenged.

    In all those cases, properly and safely confronting the issue will end the problem, but ignoring it won’t.

  • Almost a chimp

    God’s Word doesn’t give the exceptions so why should I?

    Proving yet again that Lori is incapable of independent thought. How much careful analysis of scripture would be required for her to simply say “A possible exception would be if obeying the husband’s command meant breaking one of the 10 commandments.”? But, because the Bible doesn’t specifically link spousal obedience to the commandments it doesn’t occur to Lori to make the connection for herself.

  • Cynthia

    This post sounds oddly like Ken’s words. He has a distaste for exceptions and likes to throw arbitrary numbers, like 0.1%, around.

    Problems don’t have to involve anything illegal or outright sin. How about a husband saying “please sign the papers to put a second mortgage on the home and don’t ask me any questions about it”? I’ve seen that situation more than once.

  • Almost a chimp

    I assume that she considers questions about exceptions to submission to be nothing more than women seeking ways to be disobedient because, sinful wenches that they are, they really want to defy the God of the Bible and the god of the home (I felt queasy just typing that!). Therefore, those women just aren’t entering into the spirit of the game and need to put such independent thoughts out of their minds and instead focus on obeying God, home god, and Lori, without question.

  • Taya

    And those who didn’t submit were forcibly made to. Your think the long history would be warning enough yet..

  • Taya

    As a practical question… in today’s day and age, how the hell do you find a woman willing to put herself in such a situation? Did she grow up in a fundi cult? Were her family hard core religious adherents? Otherwise how do you mold yourself to such ideas? I understand the lesser cases, even my family and in-laws tried to get me to submit and for peace I did for awhile… right until I was out of their hands. But to put ones child at risk, being out of physical control of the other people, is a dept of belief I find hard to understand but believe is an important issue to study.

  • Taya

    Maybe something about controlling your thoughts to be happy about that submission..

  • Taya

    I applaud your willingness to be queasy for the sake of furthering knowledge. Not sarcasm either.

  • Taya

    That’s partly the point here, that children are raised to think the parents beliefs are unshakable… daughter’s are raised to be “good wives” for “godly men” who obey dad until dad finds a mate to order them about. It’s partly what makes the whole thing that much worse, children are reared on it so it’s not just bad or damaging to two… err consenting? … adults. If you can get a few generations to follow the ideas then you have essentially a culture with horribly ingrained ideas that essentially cripple the chance of the offspring joining society or leading any semblance of a healthy life. Kinda how so much awful shit has survived so long in our culture and will continue to survive long after we are dead.

  • SAALPC

    It struck me today in Lori’s world how much submission is about control. If you submit hard enough, you will “make” your husband do what you want him to do. (She calls it “win him without a word”.) Problem is, in my almost 9 years as a professional counselor I’ve never seen that work. What does work? Communication between adult, non-abusive partners. Strangely enough.

  • Suzanne Harper Titkemeyer

    It’s absolutely about control, women controlling their husbands by submission. It never works, but people like Lori like to pretend it does. The one time I was around Jim Bob and Michelle Duggar I observed exactly that dynamic in action.

  • Mary Hannah bates

    Prayer is not a financial plan.

  • Suzanne Harper Titkemeyer

    That is the sad part. Her walk and life could be joyous, but she openly chooses exactly that which will only bring misery.

  • Mary Hannah bates

    “win him without a word” The whole concept reeks of manipulation. I remember growing up that women were accused of manipulating men to get what they wanted. Manipulation was their only choice if they did not have money of their own to just go and do or buy what they wanted.

  • Mary Hannah bates

    I think spousal abuse is more than power and domination because marriage is no longer necessary socially. The abuser can now just walk away unless they have a shit load of kids, mortgage etc.. Those things will cost the abuser even if they are out of the marriage.

  • Nea

    This happened several years ago, so I have no idea if it was a wake-up call or not. Likely not; like the Pearl girls, she seemed too beaten down to even grasp life outside her cult.

  • Nea

    Especially if it’s a girl baby.

  • Nea

    She and hubby certainly belonged to a cult which seemed to mix sovereign citizen and religion. I assume she’d have to grow up in one to make any of that crap, from homegrown license to child endangerment.

  • Nea

    I’ve had a number of cases where someone who treats his wife like garbage will suddenly act meek and submissive in court.

    Wouldn’t that tie in to authoritarianism, where you bully people “below” you in the chain, but roll over and suck up to a higher authority?

  • Taya

    Fair assumption, I couldn’t begin to figure out what would be involved in creating that level of indoctrination in a person who married into such a group rather than growing up in one. Truly, I fear for the children.. perhaps it sounds cruel, but she made a choice, the children however will have no say.

  • Raging Bee

    Even that walking meat bag of bad ideas Biblical Gender Roles is less toxic and criminal than Lori now.

    If Lori’s got worse, it’s probably because her own family situation is getting worse, so now she has more and worse abuse to rationalize and justify for others. This is really starting to sound sad and scary, as well as pathetically batshit-stupid.

    I wonder if Lori’s ISP might have good reason to take that toxic stuff down…

  • Snowflake

    Yeah, I know, right? My sisters and I were raised in a somewhat traditional household, but there was respect and communication between our parents, and mum did not submit.

    I don’t know how my sister ended up in a fundy lifestyle. Anyway, she told me of an incident between her and her husband. She was frustrated her husband would lay in the sofa in his dirty barn clothes, but didn’t say anything. Several years, yes years, later their son did the same thing, laid on the sofa in his dirty barn clothes. Her husband, the dad, yelled at him for it and my sister pointed out that he does the same thing. She seemed proud of this, or pleased. I thought a few seconds, and then risked to ask, if laying on the sofa with dirty barn clothes bugged her, why didn’t she say anything. Her answer was “I wanted to be a good wife.”

  • Taya

    Yeah, that time when girls were actively taught how to manipulate men and that it was ethical. To me, it seemed you were trading your dignity and your soul for the HOPE of surviving in life.

  • Snowflake

    Huh, I was like that when I was in high school.

  • Taya

    I’d be interested in hearing more about your experience, I’m very interested in these cult dynamics mainly because I’m trying to understand them on a personal level. So far, no dice.

  • persephone

    Only about 42% of men pay the full support ordered by courts. They walk away all the time.

  • persephone

    It’s more like 30% of women are abused in relationships. I think that’s actually really low. Women will put up with a lot of crap and not label it abuse, because they’re brought up to dismiss their needs, bodily autonomy, and own thoughts.

  • Cynthia

    Yup. I remember one guy sending me an over the top letter calling me “your excellency”. They only respect power and authority.

  • persephone

    Her name is unusual, so I’m getting some great hits searching it. She and the husband (apparently they had a Pearl type marriage ceremony, no state involved) were foreclosed on. She filed suit against a sheriff’s department (it was dismissed) for being arrested, because the deputies, per judge’s orders, told her she would have to leave the courtroom and remove her laptop, during her brother’s divorce hearing. And this is interesting: per MyLife, she’s single and living in Vegas https://www.mylife.com/catherine-donkers/catherinedonkers

    Off to explore some more

  • Almost a chimp

    Thank you.

  • persephone

    She filed suit against the TSA and Wayne County after she was arrested at the airport. Apparently, she was unhappy with her mother or grandmother being pulled aside for additional searching by TSA. It was dismissed.

    Dayum, she spends a lot of time in court. http://www.opn.ca6.uscourts.gov/opinions.pdf/06a0244n-06.pdf

    What the what?! https://lasvegassun.com/news/2003/aug/08/case-calls-attention-to-lv-activists-church/

  • Saraquill

    A long time ago on this blog, a woman detailed her life as a QF wife. She recalled a time where the hot new trend for women in her community was to cover their heads as a sign of spousal submission. Her asshole of a husband threw her a logic bomb, telling her she must submit to him by not wearing a sign of submission.

  • Cynthia

    I don’t know about other men, but my husband truly hates it when anyone is passive-aggressive. He just wants my opinion straight up.

  • IM

    I would just like to add, you don’t have to do anythingyour husband asks of you, if you don’t want to do it.

    Especially if he abuses you. Loris advice is killing women, and putting young girls in danger. They’re seeing her advice, and taking it, which will only make the vicious cycle of abuse continue. Abuse is complicated, especially when it comes from someone you love; it’s a flurry of emotions. To tell a woman (or anyone for that matter) to “submit harder” and lie down like a corpse and take abuse does nothing.

    Lori Alexander will continue to rack up the body counts with her hateful nonsense.

    If I may share and experience: When my mom abused me, everyone told me that she “loved me”, and told me to “wait until I was 18”. This could have killed me, and the neglect escalated to the point where she stopped feeding me. I was slowly dying.

    Anyone who spouts that nonsense is putting a victim through more emotional and sometimes physical turmoil.

  • Lonewolf

    It took me until my ex threatened to beat up a guy I started seeing romantically (a month after we broke up)to start realizing that some of his behavior during our relations was abusive . What made me realize more was talking with my now-fiance about our previous relationships and seeing his reaction when I said things that happened

  • MaraT

    I read an absolutely terrifying comment on her blog a few years ago. A very young wife, maybe 20 or 21 years old, wrote for advice because her very bad-tempered husband had ordered her out of their car with their little baby. He made her get out of the car on the side of an interstate because he was angry about something. Twice she had to stand by the side of the road, calling her parents from her cell phone (thank goodness she had a phone to call for help). What does Lori tell her? Just keep submitting. Horrifying. I can tell you that if I had ever called my parents because i was in such a situation, my mom would have come to get me and my father and brothers would have taken care of my “husband” in no uncertain terms. That’s why her blog is so frightening: there are women like this who feel that they have to tolerate this. They put themselves and their children in danger.

    And how is it “submitting” if someone makes you do something?? Submitting means you decide to do something. If he decides for me, I’m not submitting. I’ve being coerced and forced. My choice was taken from me. Lori does not understand the meaning of this word. How many victim are there out there because of her toxic advice she thinks is a “ministry”? Frightening.

  • Jo

    Lori doesn’t really believe in domestic violence and she believes staying will look much better for you to God – once murdered by your husband, God will give you brownie points for staying 🙁 🙁

    I am also pissed off by comments by KBDavies who believe that one MUST stay in a violent marriage because divorce is out of the question. A woman in my home town was murdered by her husband. He had only ever been emotionally and verbally abusive and shown no signs of physical violence towards her. However, the police were concerned for her safety by things he had written. The day after she visited the police, she was dead. Lori told me on more than one occasion that there is no such thing as emotional abuse one just needs to submit more. Having suffered years of emotional abuse i can tell you that it is REAL.

  • NikkiofAmystika

    Pretty sure if I were calling my parents in such a situation, my mom would kill the “husband”. Either that or my parents would race each other to do it, like some kind of action movie shootout.

  • Iain Lovejoy

    A slightly more cheerful version of the same thing: Fred Clark over on Slacktivist explaining how his mother was all into submission etc while his father very much wasn’t, and the very conservative congregation: “…trying to figure out whether it was acceptable for my mother to disagree with my father’s heretical view that it was acceptable for her to disagree with him…”
    Thought I’d share it as it made me laugh.
    His grandmother was also quite a character: here’s the link:http://www.patheos.com/blogs/slacktivist/2018/02/09/the-grandma-story/

  • Iain Lovejoy

    Lori can’t blame the Bible itself for this particular idiocy. It’s part of a section in 1 Peter where Christians are exhorted to comply with their existing legal and social obligations, which, it says in the relevant bit, includes remaining a dutiful wife even to a non-believing husband. The whole thing is a bit of word-play: the letter says if the husband is resistant to the “word” (i.e. of God), then he may be converted not with words but instead by good the example of his wife’s Christian conduct.
    It has nothing to do with submission in marriage, accepting abuse or the completely laughable idea that a husband behaving badly will somehow magically cease doing so because his wife fully cooperates and doesn’t challenge him in any way (rather than, more obviously, be actively encouraged).
    In fact, it basically says the opposite of what Lori does, that a husband may be induced to behave better by seeing the example of his wife very much not going along with any wrongful behaviour.

  • Beth Rose Gamble

    I cannot stomach Lori’s male followers…they remind me of men in the environment in which I grew up. I was convinced that deep down, all men feel this way…still hard to shake, even today, after leaving my ex and learning what true love is like, and that MOST men aren’t anything like those guys.

  • Astreja

    A woman should submit — divorce papers.

  • Taya

    Thats found in almost all authoritarian command chains, the military is famous for it and go figure, one of the worst groups for spousal abuse… when you live around the military the abuse.. at least emotional, and she’s got it good… is simply assumed by other wives. If your around it long enough it becomes nothing, only the worst cases even raise emotion and Since it’s a close Knitt group it takes a lot to drag it into the light.
    I remember in particular a night my husband was late, we had just married and I hadn’t gotten all the unspoken rules of lower command yet.growing up among cadre I called his commander, politely explained why I was calling and asked if he had left yet or been detained for punishment for something… i was worried… he didn’t get home till 10 that night and came in screaming. He’d been told by his superior very bluntly that my husband needed to control his ” stupid bitch of a wife” and put me in my place so I wouldn’t forget it. For months afterward he was hazed, I was demeaned and several other men suggested I be divorced or offered to “educate me” themselves. One of the hardest parts in helping people in abusive situations is that it is hard to get them to come forward, and often there is a network of like minded people proping up the ideals, and definitely protecting the abusers over the abused. Acting cruel one moment and sweet the next is a very common tactic to keep the abused in line. It makes you feel like your insane to think someone is abusing you, builds a tolerance to what you think of as abuse.its… painful.

  • ConcepcionImmaculadaPantalones

    The Bible doesn’t mention anything about eating fruits and vegetables being good for you or grant permission to eat cereal either but I’m sure Lori doesn’t let that stop her from eating those things. Lori needs to stop trying to claim it’s ‘god’s will’ for all women to marry, submit and have babies. Just because she’s the dumb one who chose that and regrets it so much she keeps trying to drag others into doing same thing so she can tell herself it’s what God expects of women or at least have company in misery.

    Ken is probably still checking out women who are wearing yoga pants, he just has learned the only way to not be badgered by Lori over it is to be more subtle and away from the home when doing such things.

  • Lucy

    I think it’s possible that that lady grew up abused, so fundagelical indoctrination wouldn’t have been much of a stretch if that were true.

    I think that lady should have had mandatory counseling as part of her sentence (after prison, if not before) so she learns how and why she shouldn’t do that.

  • Anonyme

    This is my comment, which will never see the light of day, unless Lori wants to show her followers what a heathen, unGodly woman I am. 😛 :

    “All the prayer and submission in the world WILL NOT CHANGE a truly abusive and cruel husband. I’ve seen it in action with my own mother. My father was an emotional and verbal abuser. My mother prayed and submitted for forty years. Her sanity was literally at stake, and she (and I) saw a counselor for years. My mom realized it had gone on too far when joy was slipping out of our lives. My mother’s submitting just gave my father more and more power. I told him “no more” before she did, but it he still found ways to tear us down. My mother was lost and miserable and my self-esteem was crumbling.
    My mother, after much prayer and thought, realized, enough is enough, especially when he gave signs that he could become physically abusive.
    God would not want any of His children to suffer just for the sake of a rule; in addition, my father was not upholding HIS duty in the marriage, by loving my mother “as Christ loved the Church”. There was no equal submission, as is instructed in the Bible.
    I try not to judge people based on their beliefs, but when those beliefs cause harm to others, I can’t condone it. And I’m not just speaking up from the anonymity of a computer screen–if I ever had the chance, Lori, to say all this to your face, I would.”

  • Taya

    One can certainly hope so… normally I reserve some very harsh opinions for people like her… not being able to have children anyone who endangers one infuriates me! But in this case I can’t really muster those views, my anger and disgust is rather tempered with pity and sorrow for the woman in question. I find it hard to believe any woman with healthy self esteem and a well formed mind would go along with any of this. Not the least the slavish following of her husband. If one chooses to live a religion in submission to a man, fine, that’s an adults right and I will rarely interfere… but this is well beyond even the insanity of the typical fundi insanity with very real negative consequences for people. I really hope something is something is done to protect that little girl, from future stupid dangers but especially from having these ideas of womanhood drilled into her so deep it never lets her have a normal life!

  • therealcie

    There’s a cruder way of saying this which I heard many years ago. Men are like a linoleum floor. If you lay them right, they should last a lifetime.

  • therealcie

    I was in my forties before I realized that almost all of the relationships I’d been in were abusive. I tortured myself for being bad at relationships. It took a long time to realize that I didn’t deserve to be abused.

  • Taya

    That is such a relief, in my opinion… my husband can occasionally be the passive one.. he’s also the more emotional and sensitive of the two of us; but I do know no matter how angry I am or unpleasant my view he always wants the truth. And if I speak the truth, brutally which is a fault if mine (in some eyes, my in-laws those lovely uber Christians, tell me I need to learn to lie) he will always accept it for what it is. . Well, except when he tries cooking a new dish it’s really the only time my husband who detests lies ignores a white lie.

    He knows I love him and my honesty is a mark of respect and trust in him. Gladly I can say I trust him and he trusts me.

  • Jen (*.*)

    It takes a very inclusive indoctrinating process to get to this point. It’s all part of the fundagelical rhetoric. If wives are to submit to husbands (and children to parents) on a consistent basis there HAS to be indoctrination on every level and for every contingency. Otherwise the whole house of cards will fall. It’s sick and twisted.

  • Anonyme

    I wonder what Lori would have said if the opposite had happened and the woman left her husband on the side of the highway?
    Ok, we all know she’d say the woman was a spiteful harridan* You only get a pass if you have a penis.

    *obviously this would be abusive behavior for either gender, but this is a classic example of Lori’s misogyny