Only Debt-Free Tattoo-Free Virgins Can be Good Christian Wives?

Only Debt-Free Tattoo-Free Virgins Can be Good Christian Wives? July 17, 2018

Wow, that’s a really oddly specific bar that Lori Alexander of The Transformed Wife has installed. Odd metric to measure by. Lori is saying that only debt-free (translation from Fundy meaning no college at all) and tattoo-free virgins are desired by men for wives.

Where is she getting this from? Did she survey a thousand guys to come up with this? Nope, Lori did like she always does, pulled it from her derriere, ooops I meant Bible, but really the same thing.

This is another piece Lori didn’t write or bother to research. She’s quoting from an email she received with her own thoughts in parenthesis. I would venture to say that the original writer has never lived in the ‘real’ world. Her only interactions are filtered through fear mongering and whatever her daddy and daddy-husband has told her. Here are a few choice selections from the demented advice:

I don’t know what this gal is talking about. Everyone leaving my home for college knew how to work in the garden, cook meals for an entire family AND do their own laundry and simple clothing repair.

Not everyone is as interested in sabataging a birth control device to stay home with their children as Lori clearly is.

And this nonsense about husbands training wives is just wrong on so many levels. Women are not animals that must be whacked on the nose with rolled up newspaper to remember to do things *HIS* way. (not that I condone using any physical violence to train an animal!)

So now women and girls cannot read the Bible and possibly understand it without a male relative doing interpretation for them? Funny, that’s not mentioned anywhere in the Bible, or at least the New Testament. Jesus never said to make sure your husband or father led you to Him! More layers of man-made authorithy that just tends to screw everything up!

Nowhere in any of this does Lori’s correspondent mention tattoos. That was cobbled on by Ms. Alexander herself. I have to wonder why she suddenly jumped to tattoo hatred.


On the plus side remember the lady that wanted Lori to remove the photo she personally thought might lead her husband astray into lust? Lori’s other commenters told her to tell her husband to grow up.

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What Are Your Thoughts?leave a comment
  • Carstonio

    Lori sounds like she’s terrified of losing her husband to the type of woman she rails against.

  • Anri

    I will never understand how women prefer careers over having precious babies.

    Yes, Lori, that’s the crux of the matter. You will never (not can never, but will never) understand that.
    Personally, I have trouble understanding the opposite, but then I don’t really care for kids.
    The difference is that I credit women with the capacity to make that decision on their own. I don’t think I, or you, or anyone, has the right to determine that decision for them.

  • Tawreos

    Why would anyone marry a person that they would have to spend years teaching how to do everything according to their wishes? I get older pound puppies so that I only have to teach a few tricks and maybe break a bad habit or two rather than a puppy that I have to teach everything to. If I won’t go through it with a puppy why would I want a relationship with an adult that needs a puppy’s training? So many of the people that write to people like Lori need to spend some time with a therapist to get over the self hate.

  • Nightshade

    Was Kennie-boy ogling a woman with tattoos? Because that doesn’t seem to fit with the rest of Lori’s bitching this time around.

  • I find all this interesting.

    Re: “debt free” means “no college”

    What do they think of those who graduate college debt free? On the Debt Free Muslims podcast, I heard of a young woman, Ayesha Ahmed, who graduated college debt free. (In Islam, riba, or interest, is haram [forbidden], as it is seen as exploitive.) It is also interesting that even though there is encouragement of early marriages in Islam, college is still encouraged. I once heard a cleric suggest marriage in college, and claimed that the days of studying in the school library with his wife were some of his best memories.

    I say all this to observe the irony that so many people (inc Fundamentalist Christians) are terrified that Muslims will impose Sharia, but ignore the bad things fundies do in the name of Christianity.

    A Muslim asked me why I have a Malcolm X quote pinned to my Twitter bio and find it meaningful, since I am a Christian. (The quote is how after his haj to Mecca, Malcolm made friends with a variety of people, of diverse racial, religious, and political identities.) I explained that I was raised in a very bigoted Christian Fundamentalist bubble, and this was a way of rejecting that bigotry. I also mentioned my old church opposed college. He was surprised, because even more conservative Muslims send their kids to college (and evidently they often send the daughters as well).

  • Astreja

    Ah, but would we lower our standards to marry a complementarian Bible-thumper? Personally, I’d rather be single for eternity.

  • Jennny

    Ah, but what about x-tian tattoos? My friend’s teenagers tried that one on their mother. My 3 teen daughters got put off the idea when one, aged 15, got a weekend job in a Care Home. She had to bathe elderly sailors (it was mainly sailors who got tattos back in the day). She said the wrinkly skin of 90yos, scarred by leaky ink and ugly mis-shapen tattoos was just ‘Eww’. I bet there are fundies with John 3v16 written on their arms, sure it will lead someone, or several someones to faith!

  • Mirella222

    Women with post-secondary education are the most likely to get married and to STAY married than their less educated counterparts. There are a lot things that seem to contribute to this (having a degree generally results in a higher income so there is less stress about money matters in the relationship, college delays marriage which gives people time to get some more life experience before choosing their partner, etc). But in any case, as it stands getting an education does not hinder women in getting married, but seems to increase the likelihood of a long, happy marriage. As for having fewer kids, yes, going to college generally means that you won’t be having kids during those years. However, even if you started having kids at 22 right out of college, you could still hypothetically have 1 child per year until you reach your mid-late 30s (some women can continue to have kids into their 40s as well). So you could still have over a dozen children! The reason women don’t generally have so many kids in wealthy countries is that a) infant and child mortality rates are low enough that if you only have a few kids, you can still be safe in the knowledge that they will survive to adulthood and b) raising children is incredibly expensive! Sure, you can cut costs by using hand-me down clothes and toys. But the real expenses come in the form of medical care (even in countries with universal healthcare systems, you often have to have insurance or pay out of pocket for things like dentists, orthodontists, prescription medication, etc), school supplies (whether you homeschool or public school), food, water usage (lots of kids means lots of showers and lots of dishes), and general wear and tear (kids have a tendency to stain the carpet and the couch, accidentally break windows in baseball games, drop dishes, etc). And then there is the cost of childcare. Babysitters are expensive, daycare even more so, and having the mom stay at home is not cheap either! Not only do you lose out on her income, but also on any pension and benefits that she may have received at her job.
    TLDR: going to college is good for marriage, and most people don’t want dozens of kids because it is not affordable for the average family.

  • Foxglove

    OK, this may be a bit off-topic, but perhaps not since the theme of many of these blogs is the control exercised over women. I’ve just come across something of interest (to me at least) in Einhard’s “Life of Charlemagne”.

    When Einhard started talking about Charlemagne’s (Charles the Great’s) family life, straightaway I got a bit annoyed. The Alpha Male is always going to have a harem, right? The information given is a bit confusing, but I think I’ve got it sorted out. Charles had four wives in his time. This fact in itself is nothing reprehensible, given that he lived a good long life (742-814). He divorced his first wife after a year and soon remarried, but it appears his third and fourth marriages occurred only after the death of the previous wife. It seems he also had four “concubines”, one while he was still married and three others after the death of his last wife. Finally, he had 3 sons and 5 daughters by his wives and 2 sons and 3 daughters by his various concubines.

    Einhard tells us that he did educate his daughters just as he did his sons in their early years. When they got older, he moved his sons on to the usual occupations of riding, fighting and hunting and his daughters to those of sewing and spinning wool. So we are talking about high-born women with some education.

    And this is where things get a bit odd: because it appears that Charles only allowed one of his daughters to even get engaged–his first daughter that he promised to the Byzantine emperor, although that engagement was broken off for reasons no one is certain about. Then Einhard tells us this about the other daughters:

    Strange to say, although they were very handsome women, and he loved them very dearly, he was never willing to marry any of them to a man of their own nation or to a foreigner, but kept them all at home until his death, saying that he could not dispense with their society. Hence, though otherwise happy, he experienced the malignity of fortune as far as they were concerned; yet he concealed his knowledge of the rumors current in regard to them, and of the suspicions entertained of their honor.

    “The malignity of fortune as far as they were concerned” means that they were sleeping around. Hardly surprising: we’re talking about normal, healthy, intelligent women, and naturally they might go after some of the things that normal, healthy, intelligent women would be interested in, and sexual relations would be included among those things. Does a man really think he can keep women cloistered for a lifetime and nothing will come of it?

    Right, so there were some rumors and suspicions about them, regarding which, the editor of one of the editions I’m looking at had this to say:

    If scandal is to be believed, the Court of Charles, in spite of his devotion to the Church and his anxiety to maintain a high standard of morals, was the scene of much licence and disorder.

    If there was “scandal”, we might ask what exactly the scandal here was. And if you don’t like “licence and disorder”, there is a way to avoid it. Like maybe allow women to live their lives.

  • Chiropter

    That’s the biggest dog whistle because very few people can get through college debt free. Those that do are likely either working full time, have someone else paying, or going through the program incredibly slowly.

    If they work, that disqualifies them from being a “good girl” by Lori’s standards. If someone else is paying, it’s likely a parent or grandparent who supports education, ergo the girl does not have a sufficiently “godly” family by Lori’s standards. If they are going slowly, they likely work and possibly intend to put off having kids until they’re done. That’s definitely unacceptable!

    Other types of debt such as car loans, credit cards, or a mortgage indicate a degree of financial and social independence. Those aren’t good traits to have in a submissive sex slave who stays locked in the house or church.

  • Brian Curtis

    I’d love to meet someone debt-free, but I live in post-Reagan America.

  • AFo

    I think this is Lori’s way of excusing how lazy, and frankly, useless she is. She’s scared of anything outside her bubble, hates doing anything with a shred of difficulty, and can’t function if something doesn’t go her way. Instead of acknowledging her faults, she’s decided it’s the women who go to college and work and adapt to difficult situations who are wrong. I fail to see how a woman like Lori is more attractive to men.

  • SAO

    Sounds like Charlemagne was rumored to have committed incest.

  • Cynthia

    I’m listening to it now and cringing.

    As a tot, Girl 1 had trouble sleeping on her own and was a fussy eater. We consciously rejected the idea of treating it like an attitude or discipline problem, because it was obvious that she wanted to please us. Turns out that she was particularly sensitive, and was recently diagnosed with IBS which is triggered by a variety of foods. She was often in pain, but had no way to tell us or even to know that it wasn’t normal.

    Meanwhile, we used gentler techniques. She learned to take responsibility for her own eating and meals. That is what adults need to do, they don’t need to eat everything in their plate at a set speed. For bedtime, the rule was that I would lie beside her for a set time, we could talk and cuddle, but she needed to be in PJs and lying down. If a child who is tired is ready for bed and lying down quietly with eyes closed in bed, it doesn’t take long to fall asleep. Meanwhile, this was our time to cuddle and connect and get rid of the stress from the day. If something was bothering her, this was when she would talk about it. By the teen years, kids will sleep without any problem, so it is an issue that solves itself. The parent-child bond, though, and comfort telling a parent anything, is important in the teen years and many teens don’t have that. Girl 1 still cuddles with me (not every night! She goes to university out of town) and talks to me and turns to me when she is stressed or worried. To have a 19 yr old who wants to be close and confide in me now is more important than policing the eating and sleeping habits of a tot.

  • Foxglove

    I don’t know anything at all about that. I’d have to look into it. But the question does naturally arise, doesn’t it? And it does kind of remind you of a certain somebody, doesn’t it?

  • Cynthia

    Once again, Lori lives in a world where everyone has a garden and she can’t conceive of the idea that some people live in apartments.

  • Morgan Lefaye

    Anyone who thinks another adult needs to be trained to do everything according to their wishes has no business getting married.

  • SAO

    The idea that college interferes with having children is total nonsense. Most people enter college at 18 and graduate at 22. Michelle Duggar was 22 when she had her first child. So, a woman who graduated from college before marrying and having her first child would be 23.

    Also, the reason a bible-reading girl or young woman needs her father, husband or older woman to explain submission to her is that she won’t find it in the bible without someone to twist the words for her.

  • Cynthia

    Good. Honestly, how many neurotypical 20 yr olds can’t feed themselves, use the bathroom or go to sleep? How many will stick forks in electric sockets or fall down ungated stairs? These things are not character issues. They are developmental, and a parent’s job is simply to teach skills and keep a child safe and healthy as they grow into being able to do the skills.

    I once read that parents should really focus discipline (that means more than punishment, BTW – more like shaping behavior) on what will matter when a child is 20.

  • Aloha

    Babies are cute — but then, so are kittens. So are flowers, and so are house spiders.

  • The Bofa on the Sofa

    My 9 yo son just did cake decorating for the county fair.

    He did a great job. Now he gets to make cakes for every family event.

  • Saraquill

    Thomas Day had very particular ideas as to what he wanted in a spouse. After deciding women weren’t up to snuff, he adopted two girls to raise as he saw fit. One he left, the other, Sabrina Sidney, he subjected to physical and emotional abuse in the name of molding her into his ideal wife.

    Life thankfully had other plans for her, but it was still a sucky upbringing.

  • MadScientist1023

    I wouldn’t quite call it nonsense. When you’re looking at the population level, the biggest predictor of how many children a woman will have is her education level. The better educated women are, the fewer kids they tend to have. If you look at countries where female education starts becoming more normal, you can see the trend pretty clearly. The older generation, where the women are less educated, tend to have 5-6 kids, while the younger women, who actually go to school and can get jobs, have more like 2-3. So if you are promoting a religion that converts barely anyone, and that only grows because of women having kids, discouraging female education is a good way to bolster your religion’s numbers.

  • Nea

    Don’t forget untrustworthy! She admits to tampering with her own birth control to ensure she had one more baby, her husband’s condition for her to be allowed to stop working.

  • SAO

    Countries with lots of educated women tend to be countries with good access to birth control and a general acceptance of the idea of family planning.

    Even the CPM, by talking about God doing the planning support the idea that families are planned. It’s a relatively new concept that’s far from universal world-wide.

  • smrnda

    Precious little babies cost $money$ and people who lack college educations have a harder time making enough to support their families.

    On cooking, who does she think does the cooking for college students? They have to cook their own meals. Sure, that might slide a bit from time to time when they are busy, but the accounts of what QF families eat doesn’t seem much better, and often sounds worse.

    She should also poll some college educated men – they’re all marrying women who went to college who do all the things that horrify Lori. She’s just another irrelevant whiner about ‘kids these days.’

  • Quinsha

    Best reason yet that I have heard to get a tattoo.

  • Annerdr

    It was in college that I learned to make pate and pesto and a slew of other things that my mother couldn’t have taught me because she didn’t make them.

  • Annerdr

    I don’t miss mowing the grass in July, but I do miss having a garden.

  • Annerdr

    Yes, my gentler parenting with my son has led to a 21 year old who calls and texts me several times a week to share his successes and talk about his failures and to plan for his next steps. I am thrilled he’s willing to allow me into his world.

  • Annerdr

    Yes. My son is lucky enough that his grandparents are paying for his college. He will graduate debt free. At the same time, he is working to support himself, so he recognizes the value of money. It means he is hopeful for his future. He has plenty of friends who are very, very worried about their upcoming debt payments.

  • Annerdr

    You are wrong about house spiders, but puppies are pretty good.

  • Cynthia

    My garden is a hot mess. I didn’t have one for the first 7 years of our marriage, and I never really figured out how not to kill things. In Toronto, though, land is expensive and young families today generally need to start off in apartments or condos. Even spending $1 million on a house doesn’t get you enough land to grow enough veggies to really make a difference to a family. Living farther out of the city where land is a bit cheaper might not make financial sense, because the better jobs are in the city and a family in the city doesn’t need to spend money on cars and gas if they can walk and take public transportation.

  • bekabot

    I wouldn’t quite call it nonsense.

    Yeah, but still, the hyperdramatic way she puts it is silly. “They will start having babies later in life. That is if they can still conceive naturally.” Holy moly. ‘If they can still conceive naturally?’ What the heck is that? Which women are these whose ovaries are all dried up by the time they’re twenty-two or twenty-three years old? Where do they live? Where do they come from? And are they expected to survive past the age of thirty-six? Do they measure their age in pet years, or what?

  • EbbyBee

    What are Lori’s kids like? She talks about how her entire life is being a wife and mother but I never hear much about her actual children.

  • texassa

    I don’t particularly value a career because it is fun. I value a career because it enables me to support myself, provide a good home, food, insurance, vehicle, travel, clothing, gifts, savings and retirement. My career is essential to my life and to our household. And marriage and dependency are not proper financial plans for anyone, regardless of their genetalia.

  • persephone

    Lori only had four, so I don’t know how she can be an expert on having lots of babies. Four is way more than I wanted, but pretty small for a woman claiming Biblical womanhood.

  • persephone

    I didn’t reach menopause until I was in my early 50s. Some of us are fertile Myrtles.

  • persephone

    Probably a tramp stamp and yoga pants with the top rolled down.

  • persephone

    CPM is a life lived in fear.

    I’m sure that, now they’re emptynesters, Lori is starting to freak out a bit about Ken looking around. Now, I can’t blame her too much, because it is common for men to divorce women who are ill. But the freakouts she has are not helped by her sitting around the house, watching the Hallmark channel, and coming to the realization that the only real thing she has in common with her husband is religion. She doesn’t have a job, nor does she seem to do volunteer work, so she’s a woman, who is not well, in a big, empty house, married to a man with whom she can’t even really hold a conversation, other than regarding her blog.

  • One of the most ironic comments there is “they seek out books”… do they mean like the ones written by nutjob Christians? Because those are the only “how to be a wife” books I’m aware of. These people are clueless if they think they haven’t had an influence on way too many young women.

    I reached adulthood in the 1970s. In those days, few people were telling young Christian women that they weren’t supposed to have careers and that they were supposed to be really super duper submissive to their husbands. My parents married in 1956, and the same was true then. My mother worked, and went back to work after maternity leave, until the day my sister stood up in the crib by herself — then my mother decided she’d rather stay at home. But there was no societal pressure on her to do so at that time… it was her own choice! And in those days she could afford that option. (It wasn’t easy, but it got better over the years.)

    Somehow both of my sons found wives who believed (to a greater extent than my wife or mother, at least) in being submissive to their husbands. These people think that attitude is disappearing, when, in fact, in American culture it’s a relatively new thing.

    My daughters-in-law do have degrees (one in education, the other in nutrition), but they also consider their husbands the heads of the household. I’m convinced that this attitude virtually disappeared from the US in the 1800s, and has only in the last 30 years crept back in.

  • persephone

    Oh, her children are grown and gone, but she also didn’t limit them the way she demands godly women do in her blog. One was a ballerina in a professional, Christian company, so her legs and arms were regularly on display. They appear to have worn the longer skirts, but when there are leaps and turns, those skirts go up. Someone posted a while back with a link to information on how Lori has not followed her own advice in regards to her family, but the link never worked for me.

  • Rumour has it, though, that the daughters had lovers. There is a funny story about one of them carrying her lover on her back so his footprints would not be seen on the snow which had fallen overnight.

  • lady_black

    “Is college worth having fewer babies?” Why YES. Yes it is. Any more questions?

  • lady_black

    “More babies” certainly aren’t going to benefit you if your husband dies, or decides to take a powder.

  • lady_black

    My mother wasn’t a great cook, either. So, most of the things we learned were from Dad (who was a Navy cook) and home economics classes. And of course, once you learn to follow a recipe and understand cooking terms, you can make anything.
    *Thinking of the time the young man in charge of the kitchen decided to make a cake from scratch for the residents, and asked me what “cream butter and sugar” meant. I told him, and he pulled out a wire whisk. I said “Not with that, unless you want it to take all day.” Then he got out the electric mixer, and I told him “Now you’re cooking with gas!”

  • Foxglove

    You’d know more about that than I would. I don’t actually know very much about Charlemagne. It’s one of the reasons I’m reading Einhard.

  • lady_black

    It’s still nonsense. Obviously, the college educated women are having fewer children because they have better things to do. Not because they can’t. I see that as a GOOD thing.

  • Annerdr

    Oh, Mom was a great cook, but she cooked pot roast and meat loaf and pot pie – all very delicious, middle America fare.

  • lady_black

    Do you have a patio or balcony? Try container gardening. I do have a yard, but the land is rocky here, and the soil is thin. So we grow veggies in containers.

  • lady_black

    She sounds like a real idiot.

  • Annerdr

    I have a balcony and have considered it, but it’s pretty full.

  • lady_black

    Well, there’s GOOD debt, and BAD debt. Good debt would be for a mortgage or a car so you can get to work, and in most cases, education. Bad debt is credit-card debt, where if you can only afford the minimum payments, it will take you 30 years to pay it off. Look for someone with only good debt.

  • lady_black

    You COULD have a child every year. But who wants to?

  • lady_black

    That’s a normal age for menopause. I have no idea when I went through, because I had a hysterectomy at 47. But, I’m pretty sure I’m through it now. No more hot flashes.

  • therealcie

    Well, good thing my fat, tattooed, agnostic self never wants to have any more children (not that I can have them: I’m post-menopausal), or even be in a relationship ever again. However, being agnostic and tattooed is my ticket to hell anyway, and being fat probably earns me an extra punch for good measure.

  • katiehippie

    ” Instead of learning it from their parents, they seek out books or movies on how to interpret the Bible which leads them down the wrong path”

    Books like Created to be His Help Meet, perhaps?

  • MuttsRule

    That wasn’t my experience. The 1950s-60s housewives tut-tutted over career women who were, ipso facto, bad mothers who “took away” a man’s job from him. Single mothers were pitied (and indeed wages for women’s work were generally low). Finding day care was difficult, and effective birth control was only starting to be widely used at the end of the 1960s. Everyone was nominally Christian, so there wasn’t really a religious slant to this. The thing that saved young women was that families figured out that the place to go hunting for the best (defined as having the most potential for making enough money to comfortably support 3 – 6 people) husbands was a college campus, which did not include a Bible college.

  • SAO

    Usually, menopause is preceded by perimenopause, in which the woman is often infertile or not very fertile. The average age of menopause in the US is 51 or 52, but women who conceive naturally at age 50 or above are so rare as to be listed on a Wikipedia page. Around 10% of women can still conceive at age 45, but only 5% have been through menopause.

  • Zeldacat

    Babies are cute. Human babies and other babies. That being said, I feel much the same way about human babies as I do puppies or kittens – I enjoy them for a while and then I get to give them back to their people. I’m sure I COULD care for and love a baby but I very much do not want to!

  • Zeldacat

    My mom was in her late 50s at menopause. I do rather hope it gets here earlier for me. One of her grandmothers had a surprise baby at 47! He was a good decade younger than the rest.

  • Zeldacat

    I got mine when I was still a virgin. Yet it was several years before I finally shed that status, such as it were. Apparently tattoos don’t equal instant defloweration, who knew?

  • Mimc

    Lori seems to think I can’t love my husband, my baby, and my job (each to appropriate degrees) at the same time. What a sad narrow little view of the world she has there.

  • Mimc

    I don’t think most doctors would recommend that. Mine recommends waiting at least a year to get pregnant after vaginal birth and two for c section.

  • Mimc

    Though when they do they are more likely to have twins.

  • B.A.

    There are worse things than being single. I rather like it.

  • B.A.

    She IS an idiot.

  • lady_black

    I was HORRIFIED upon hearing that my daughter was pregnant again after only 5 months. Her body never had the chance to recover properly and build up her nutritional stores.
    The second child was born with numerous issues, including autism. I often wonder if things would have gone better if she had just waited at least a year, and I would prefer TWO years. It really takes that long to get back up to par physically. Her excuse? She wasn’t using birth control because “she hardly ever has sex.” That was one of the few times in my life I have even raised my voice. I said “Well, that would scare the shit out of me!”
    This time she wised up and got an IUD. Thankfully, and I hope she keeps using it, because she needs another kid like she needs to jump off a pier with her pockets filled with rocks. I think it helped when my sister (who babysits her children at sweetheart rates) told her if she had another child, she would need to make other arrangements.

  • Saraquill

    I learned to make yeast bread, among other things.

  • Anonyme

    I have zero maternal instinct. I’m one of those selfish women who see children as individuals, instead of trophies to appease God. I know I couldn’t give my (hypothetical) child the level of care, affection and concern they would need.
    There’s also the matter of being asexual, but I’m sure Lori thinks that’s a sin, too.

  • Anonyme

    I think most baby animals are cuter than babies, especially babies in the first few weeks of life, when they look like doughy frogs.

  • Being born in 1960 I don’t suppose I’d have heard the talk. My mother’s a Christian — Church of Christ — but I suppose she was always somewhat modern in her beliefs.

  • persephone

    I managed to conceive at 40 while on birth control. Had my tubes tied during the second C-section.

  • persephone

    I had to go read up on Day. What a psycho.

    I was thinking of that Duck Dynasty jerk who married a 15-year-old because that way she grew up into his perfect wife. Plus, ugh, all those young bride crazies, marrying off their too-young daughters.

    Men who fear women who think for themselves should really be edited out of the gene pool.

  • persephone

    The RCC wasn’t involved in marriages at that time. Next century they started on god blessing the marriage or it wasn’t official. Besides, Charlemagne was doing what they wanted him to do, so they let him have his fun.

    As to his daughters, if only the Botkins had the backbones to do what Charlemagne’s did.

  • Astreja

    It took me most of my adulthood to get there, after two attacks of monogamy, but I really enjoy being single. My favourite perk is the ability to go travelling — Three new places in three years, more trips than I’ve taken in all of the preceding 30 years. (Having 100% control of the household finances definitely helped.)

  • smrnda

    What did she do for a living? Dishonestly and laziness aren’t traits to admire Lori.

  • smrnda

    Kids are also expensive and take a lot of work. It’s better to have only enough children that you can manage.

  • smrnda

    I graduated debt free but I my family had decent enough $ and early advantages meant that I was going to have an easier time with scholarships.

    On debt – the ability to gain access to credit takes some financial responsibility in and of itself.

  • DesertSon

    Your poor husband. Guy probably hasn’t gotten laid in ages, like all husbands who agree to non-gendered household chores.

  • MadScientist1023

    I knew I should have included that aside about the myth of having kids later in life. May as well say it now.

    Most of the conventional wisdom about women having kids later in life is bull. A lot of fuss has been made about children conceived in a woman’s 40s having an increased risk of birth defects. The increase may be statistically significant, but it’s something like an increase from 1% to 2%. The absolute increase is miniscule. Yet we have women freezing their eggs in their 20s because they’ve been lead to think the eggs they make later in life are going to be useless. It’s a complete scam based on media hype about misunderstood statistics.

    Increasing female education is a great tool for curbing global population growth. Once women are educated and have options for their life besides raising kids, they choose to have fewer. It is something we genuinely need to do to help lift people out of poverty and keep the human population at a level the planet can actually sustain.

  • Nea

    Horrifyingly, she was a teacher.

  • Nea

    Or even just gets disabled and can’t work.

  • Nea

    That’s something I really want to work on.

  • Nea

    I think one of her daughters is not particularly fertile and thus hasn’t been the stay at home mother that Lori demands.

  • lady_black

    That happens too. Getting married is great, but it’s not financial planning.

  • lady_black

    My sister had her first at 39, and two more in fairly rapid order. Go figure.

  • SAO

    It’s not uncommon to be able to conceive in the early 40s. It’s uncommon, but not rare in the mid-40s, but by age 50, natural conception is very, very rare.

    Probably, birth year mistakes/alterations are more common than conceptions at 50. My MIL’s birth date was changed when she immigrated to the US.

  • SAO

    People vary. We all know women who are 5’2″ and women who are 5’10”. I don’t understand why the idea that fertility varies is such a surprise. Advice is designed to help the average woman so women are advised to start families by the mid-30s, but to use birth control until a full year of no periods has passed, which is usually in the 50s. In short, if you want kids, be aware you might be the equivalent of a 5’0″; if you don’t want them, be aware some women are the equivalent 6″ tall.

  • lady_black

    Fertility does vary, and not just in women. I never gave birth control much thought from the time I had my tubes tied. That wasn’t my point.
    My point is that most women, given other options, do not choose to start having babies right out of high school and continue as long as nature will allow. That’s why most families aren’t the Duggars. Getting a post-secondary education does not limit childbearing, AT ALL. Whoever wrote the post being discussed in this blog knows nothing about how women’s bodies work, and their ideas are unworthy of consideration by anyone with functioning intelligence.

  • Anonyme

    Jumping spiders are adorable, though.

  • Mimc

    I got the hormone implant that lasts three years after my c section. I think that will be good spacing for us. But I could get it removed a year early if I change my mind. I’m definitely going to follow my doctor’s advice. A ruptured uterus sounds horrifying.

  • Saraquill

    If you use 100% whole wheat bread like I did, you won’t get as much of a rise. I learned much later that whole wheat doesn’t have as much of the substances that makes gluten form while kneading.

  • therealcie

    But dontcha know, women aren’t supposed to like sex, we’re just supposed to put up with it? So, according to Lori, a woman who is asexual needs to do her saintly duty and be miserable like the rest of the Godly women!

  • lady_black

    I had roughly three years between mine. That worked well. Never had two in diapers at the same time.

  • therealcie

    I took care of a child whose mother’s uterus ruptured. This little girl had cerebral palsy and needed a tracheostomy and tube feedings. There was another little boy I knew of who ended up with similar issues when his mother’s uterus ruptured. It’s an awful thing, both for the mother and child.

  • therealcie

    I had PCOS (and other endocrine issues) and so didn’t get pregnant easily. I just got through menopause and will probably have to have a hysterectomy due to endometrial hyperplasia, endometriosis, and a uterus full of polyps and fibroids. I don’t think I’ll miss my uterus.

  • therealcie

    Better them than me!
    I had one child who is now 28. My pregnancy was fraught with complications. I am not one of those women who just loves to be pregnant.

  • MuttsRule

    Or The Stepford Wives, maybe.

  • SAO

    Exactly! Michelle Duggar had her first child at 22. Women who go to college are likely to graduate at 22, meaning if they wait to start a family until after graduation, they could easily have their first children at 23, therefore have time to have a good 15 kids.

    People who have 15 kids rarely regret not having a 16th.

  • MuttsRule

    When I was a young working woman (living at home), over the age of 21 and therefore perilously close to irredeemable spinsterhood, I was able to buy clothes, modest but nice. Various women in the congregation would say to me, “Well, when you’re married and have children, you’re not going to be able to dress like that.” These were generally women who had gotten married right out of high school and were staying home with 2 or 3 kids and only their husband’s wages. It didn’t seem to me that they were so happy with their children, only that they wanted company in their misery.

  • lady_black

    So, they wanted you signing up for dressing in rags. LOL. How charming.

  • lady_black

    I would have regretted having a fourth.

  • Zeldacat

    We’re both related to some very lucky (as in they made it relatively unscathed through really late pregnancies and births when medical help wasn’t nearly what it is now) women! I will have to check for specifics but my great-uncle arrived in the mid 1930s.

  • MuttsRule

    Wonkette has weighed in on this article by Lori Alexander and, as usual, the comments are as funny as the Wonkette treatment. One commenter brought up Vauhn (sic) Ohlman, who in 2016 scheduled a Get Them Married retreat in Wichita (later cancelled by the Salvation Army, who owned the venue, and apparently got wind of the what they were up to). Anybody heard of this guy? From the comment:

    Vauhn Ohlman, who runs a site called Let Them Marry,
    is facilitating a family camp in Wichita Kansas this November, titled
    “Get Them Married Retreat”. The purpose of the camp? As stated on their website,
    “The Get Them Married Retreat is a 3-day retreat designed to bring
    together like-minded families (and their unmarried young men and women)
    who are committed to young, fruitful marriage …our major focus and
    priority will be bringing together unmarried young people and their
    families so they can intentionally network together with a goal of
    arriving at God-glorifying marriages.”

    So just how does Ohlman define “God-glorifying, young, fruitful marriage”?

    Ohlman is a proponent of what has been termed “betrothal”. In his words:

    The betrothal covenant is the covenant that makes a man
    and a woman into a husband and wife. It has no specific Biblical form;
    indeed it is expressed in Scripture in a whole variety of different
    ways, from fairly formal to purely physical…. The couple who are in the
    betrothal covenant, but have not yet come together physically, are said
    to be ‘betrothed’; and the time period where they are like that is
    called ‘betrothal’.

    Ohlman goes on to further explain in detail his doctrine of betrothal:

    We on our site use the word ‘betrothal’ to refer to the
    entire set of principles, which differ from those of courtship and
    dating, which are taught by Scriptures for the path to marriage and
    several related subjects. These include:

    A) The sufficiency of Scripture for the path to marriage

    B) The authority of the father over the marriage of their virgin children

    C) The continuing authority of the father after marriage

    D) The importance of the betrothal covenant versus:

    E) The problematic nature of the quasi-covenants of dating, courting, or engagement

    F) The importance of young, fruitful marriages

    G) That a ‘bad’ marriage is to be preferred over no marriage

    H) That a couple is not supposed to ‘fall in love’ before they
    are in covenant; they are to be brothers and sisters to each other

    I) That marriage is ordained for the prevention of fornication

    J) That ‘unready’ people should marry

    K) That early, fruitful marriage is normative

    L) That the gift of being successfully celibate is very rare. [emphasis mine]

  • Mimc

    *shutters* I’m really leaning towards repeat c section. I know it’s not common even with VBAC but it is kind of terrifying.

  • Suzanne Harper Titkemeyer

    You are aware that Vyckie Garrison and I are the first to out Von for his disgusting blog and behavior? Vyckie got the word out about the retreat on Raw Story first. We’d been covering Vaughn from two websites before he did his marriage retreat thing. He’s cray cray

  • B.E. Miller

    Feature, not a bug, according to fundies. This is why they want to marry teenagers because then she doesn’t have ‘worldy’ experience and won’t be too independent.

  • Annerdr
  • zizania

    I discovered back when we had cats (can’t now, husband’s allergic) that once I had too many of them I didn’t enjoy them nearly as much. At least that should stop me from becoming a crazy cat lady if my husband predeceases me. I stopped having kids after one, and I’m sure I’d feel them same way about them.

  • Jane Ravenswood

    I guess deceitful woman are just fine to marry.

  • MuttsRule

    No, I wasn’t, but good work. You probably saved some innocent 15-year-olds. Does he have any significant number of followers so he can do real harm, or is his audience just 20 lost souls meeting in an abandoned storefront?

  • smrnda

    Teacher shortages are a thing, which can lead them to take anybody. I wonder, have any of her former students commented about her?

  • Nea

    Good question. Wasn’t she like an elementary school teacher, though? Teenagers would call out her bullshit in a New York minute.

  • Sarah Flood

    Lori’s life sounds like an absolute hellscape and I can’t imagine reading anything she writes and thinking, “Yeah, that’s the life I want.” Even when I was a fundigelical, I would have rather plucked out every last one of my eyelashes than tried to live the way she thinks women have to.

  • Not necessarily, but being of French/German origin means that you hear stories about Charlemagne all the time. My father even believed he was a descendant of Charlemagne, which might even be true, considering Charlemagne’s love life. 😉