Josiah and Lauren Duggar – Quiverfull and Miscarriage

Josiah and Lauren Duggar – Quiverfull and Miscarriage May 22, 2019
Screen cap from YouTube clip

A couple of days ago there was an article in the Duggar family mouthpiece, People magazine, announcing another impending Duggar birth. Josiah and Lauren Duggar are five or six months pregnant with a baby after a miscarriage.

They sensibly waited until well past most chance of miscarriage before announcing the pregnancy to the public. I wish them well, Hoping everything goes well with the birth and subsequent pregnancies.

Why? Because one horrible thing about following the Duggar’s Quiverfull theology is what happens when you are either unable to conceive a child, or if you have more than one miscarriage. Eventually you, as the woman, are blamed for this lack of fecundity.

This is one of those things in Quiverfull that is hidden, that we must talk about. I’ve listened to the stories of the many women out there with fertility struggles in Quiverfull. They’ve been made to feel less that, treated like the lowest of creatures, or openly blamed for what happened.

It might not be overt. It could be as simple as someone from your church sidling up next to you to whisper in your ear that you drinking coffee, or soda, or exercising, or doing literally anything caused your miscarriage. The implication being that it’s all your fault.

Or perhaps someone refers to you out of your hearing as their ‘heathen’ friend for having a few or no children. Even if you’re a member of that same church, believing the same thing as they do, doing all the exact same things as them but unable to have a child.

One of the worst reactions is when someone comes up with their idea that you have no children or have had a miscarriage because there is unconfessed sin in your life.  Likely you will not hear this one until you’ve had a long stretch of infertility or multiple miscarriages. It starts as a hateful whisper going around your group before someone decides to ‘speak the truth in love’ about your possible imaginary sin problem.

Here’s the problem with all of it. It’s not you, no matter how much those in Quiverfull try to blame you for the lack of multiple children. You aren’t being punished, it’s not because you drink coffee or use the wrong facewash.

Miscarriage is surprisingly common. The numbers show that it happens, and sometimes there are no reasons anyone can find. It’s not sin, or punishment. It just happens.

Which makes many of the new anti abortion laws so frightening. Many of these laws are trying to add in laws criminalizing miscarriage. There is a push to add into the law the idea that if it is determined you did something wrong and they determined it may have caused the miscarriage you might be prosecuted. So far this has not come about, but it is being discussed as an option by the pro life people.

Adding to the pain of people who desperately want children by blaming them for their lack of childbearing is just sick.

The Duggars seem to be extraordinarily fecund, but what happens when someone in their group suffers miscarriage after miscarriage, or when no amount of attempting to have a baby succeeds? Will they say some of the more ugly things listed above, or will they shrug and figure it’s not their business. This is one of the problems with constructing your entire theology around a biological process that not everyone can do.


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NLQ Recommended Reading …

Quiverfull: Inside the Christian Patriarchy Movement by Kathryn Joyce

I Fired God by Jocelyn Zichtermann

13:24 A Dark Thriller by M Dolon Hickmon

About Suzanne Titkemeyer
Suzanne Titkemeyer went from a childhood in Louisiana to a life lived in the shadow of Washington D.C. For many years she worked in the field of social work, from national licensure to working hands on in a children's residential treatment center. Suzanne has been involved with helping the plights of women and children' in religious bondage. She is a ordained Stephen's Minister with many years of counseling experience. Now she's retired to be a full time beach bum in Tamarindo, Costa Rica with the monkeys and iguanas. She is also a thalassophile. She also left behind years in a Quiverfull church and loves to chronicle the worst abuses of that particular theology. She has been happily married to her best friend for the last 32 years. You can read more about the author here.
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  • Jennny

    I have 3 adult children. It took us 11years to conceive our first child. We were very energetic youth leaders in our church and had big numbers at our kids and teens clubs – as well as both having full time secular jobs. It wasn’t a QF situation, but more than one x-tian suggested god was wanting us to carry on converting kids rather than giving us our own family. Then there was always the story of Hannah, I understood her despair at being barren but was secretly fearful that if I prayed for a baby, god might then want more, like he did of Hannah who gave Samuel to the temple and only saw him once a year. Cot death was beginning to be talked about and – OK maybe I wasn’t thinking clearly – but I did worry so much when I gave birth, god would take her away just to test our devotion to him…just one of the dissonances it took years to confront, this loving god’s mysterious and cruel ways I wasn’t supposed to question. So I empathise so much with barren QF women who must feel like something you scrape off the bottom of your shoe to their cult.

  • Tawreos

    Adding to the pain of people who desperately want children by blaming them for their lack of childbearing is just sick.

    The only three options are to blame their god, the husband, or the woman and for those people there really is only one option. Of course, they will never care about the pain they cause because they are speaking out of “love”. Will it ever be possible to hear a story about this group that isn’t horrifying in one way or another?

  • Saraquill

    Suzanne, the article you linked to says that criminalizing miscarriage is a big question mark, not a fact.

  • Saraquill

    Someone I was friends with fancied himself as bright and superior to others. His reaction to reading an article on one woman’s miscarriage was to call her unsympathetic and blame her for the tragedy.

  • Friend

    OK, how about this 2018 series by the New York Times?

    https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/12/28/opinion/abortion-pregnancy-pro-life.html

    Harper’s (with some overlap, and sorting out prediction from actual cases):

    https://www.harpersbazaar.com/culture/politics/a27454956/what-does-georgias-abortion-law-mean-women-who-miscarry/

  • Suzanne Harper Titkemeyer

    I know that. Posted that it was being considered, not that it was fact right now. Buzzfeed seems to think it’s unlikely, but we’ve seen this thinking before. Most of the anti abortion bills out there right now have a miscarriage prosecution clause. It hasn’t happened, but it is coming.

  • Friend

    The Indiana law has NOT yet gone into effect, but here’s a 2016 piece about requiring an Indiana woman to sign a form that mentions a memorial service for a blighted ovum:

    https://www.huffpost.com/entry/pences-legacy-indiana-law-requires-burial-or-cremation_b_582cc387e4b0d28e552149a4

    We have been here before. In the olden days, some churches forced women to have burial services for their stillborn children. If they want that, fine. If they don’t? Not fine.

  • I had to endure a lecture from “an older woman” a few days after I miscarried, quite early on. People have no clue sometimes. I’m sure that I asked God (more than they did) about what I did wrong and why God didn’t open my womb more often and why I couldn’t carry beyond the first few weeks. And I’ve never been given a look of compassion when facing this scrutiny in church when I answer that God’s grace is sufficient, and if God is sovereign and opens the womb, I had to say, “Be it unto me according to Thy will” to God. Was He not sovereign over my womb? If He opens them, I think that it has to be Him who closes them, too.

  • Nea

    I’d be very curious to know the numbers on second or third generation quiverfulls; it strikes me as a sect that would have an especially high number of walkaways considering its high demands and low return. Especially considering the physical toll on children raised with the attitude that needs are mere wants that God needn’t provide, like, say, proper nutrition to grow on.

    Certainly I’ve noticed that the Duggar daughters struggle hard to even attempt their mother’s famous fecundity; has any of the married daughters not had a high-risk birth and accompanying NICU stay?

  • I’m so concerned that women who are ill will not get timely and appropriate care. I’ve seen it happen in the South in the Bible Belt, and there were no (elective) abortions at that hospital. I didn’t particularly like wrapping pregnant mothers for the morgue or sending them out because they stroked and were now brain dead because everyone waited to intervene. It is heart wrenching.

  • The Bofa on the Sofa

    The numbers show that it happens, and sometimes there are no reasons anyone can find.

    That’s an understatement. RARELY are there any identifiable reasons for a miscarriage. Usually because there are so many possible reasons why it could happen that identifying a single one is either impossible or not worth the effort. In the case of repeated miscarriages, they might be investigated moreso, but even then, the solution might be to take a supplement of something and hope that helps.

    Unfortunately, miscarriages happen. I usually attribute it to the fact that it takes a lot to go right to grow a baby, and if the body detects that it isn’t working, it stops the process so it can start over (one could say, it “aborts” the process). It’s kind of a hard truth, but the most important thing is that there isn’t anything that anyone did wrong. It’s not the father’s fault, the mother’s fault or God. It’s that nature is imperfect, and if there is a flaw in the process, it stops. That flaw, however, could be something as esoteric as an important protein misfolds and fails to send the appropriate signal to a cell. Suddenly, things are all off. That’s not anybody’s fault, it just happens (hell, if we knew how to control misfolding of proteins, we could cure Alzheimers)

  • The Bofa on the Sofa

    I’d be very curious to know the numbers on second or third generation quiverfulls; it strikes me as a sect that would have an especially high number of walkaways considering its high demands and low return.

    Yeah, but if only 10% of them will do it, that is still 1 – 2 kids per family that go on to do it themselves….

  • Suzanne Harper Titkemeyer

    I find their attempts to criminalize miscarriage the most frightening. I had, while I was quiverfull, nine miscarriages. Later after leaving it was discovered that I had an undiagnosed bleeding disorder and my uterus was tilted the wrong way. None of this was discovered in my days in quiverfull because doctors, hospitals and testing was considered idolatry. It took an emergency hysterectomy to discover these things. Should I go to jail for not knowing how flawed my body is?

    I really had to restrain myself writing this piece because I didn’t want all my experiences, or those of my friends who struggled with infertility, like Cindy Kunsman to color what I was saying. I am seriously worried for anyone in the Duggar system that might have any challenges having children, or have medical issues.

    It gave me a frightened pause to read in that People article about Lauren talking about gluten giving her stomach cramps. This is not a belief system that helps chronic illness, it blames it on unconfessed sin.

  • Suzanne Harper Titkemeyer

    Good point.

  • Suzanne Harper Titkemeyer

    I had one lady sidle up to me after my 7th miscarriage and tell me I caused them because I drank the occasional diet coke. She seriously believed that nutrasweet, for all its testing, caused fetal tissue death (not true) and MS (also not true). For all the testing and things it might cause these have never been part of the provable side effects.

  • Martin Penwald

    I wanted to know too. Michelle Duggar was exceptionally fecund, but what about her daughters? Even if it’s a genetic trait, I doubt all of them inherited it. I hope that they’ll be able to exit their parents sphere of influence.

  • Martin Penwald
  • As you note well, we don’t need any extra blame or questions about what we did. We do a fine job of that on our own, wondering why and how, wishing that you could turn back time for a few weeks to see if you could have another chance. The first time, I reached down toward my lap and grasped at the air as if I could catch that baby’s spirit to coax it back into my body. I’ve never felt anything quite like that emptiness and fullness and a mix of so many emotions — all in an instant that seemed like a lifetime of depth that lasted as long as one breath.

  • Martin Penwald

    Barf…

    A higher court later ruled that Carder’s rights had been violated – scant comfort to her grieving family. The dissenting judge in that ruling, however, gave some frightening insight into what women are up against: he argued that the viable unborn child is a person with rights separate from the pregnant woman, and that an expectant mother by “undertaking to bear another human being places herself in a special class of persons”

  • My struggle with infertility is not anything compared to the rejection and cruelty and alienation that other Christians showed to me. The closer that I got to 35 and 40, the more painful it became. I needed encouragement and compassion. The only thing good about it was the joy that I shared with other moms who loved me and didn’t care and shared their family life with me.

  • Viability has become a slippery slope. How much intervention will be available to save a preemie? There is extra-corporeal mechanical oxygenation, but will that be offered to the indigent? Who will pay for the care that those babies need for the long NICU stays? Who decides if it’s viability with intervention or viability without intervention? What about drug addicted or mothers with high risk pregnancies? Do they get special consideration? If you have gestational diabetes and deliver too early, will you be prosecuted for not managing your blood sugar well enough, resulting in problems for the baby? There are a million things to consider.

  • Friend

    There are many, many cases of women being jailed for using drugs during pregnancy, and having their newborns taken away immediately after delivery.

    It sounds simple to say that people should not use meth and heroin during pregnancy. In real life, women are also prosecuted for taking prescription medications. In real life, addicts get pregnant, and might conceal the pregnancy out of a well-founded fear of arrest. Prosecution has been expanding for years. The NYT series explores a couple of these cases.

    What pregnant women need is medical care. That’s the best way to help both the pregnant woman and the baby. Shackling her to a bed? Not such a great plan.

    ETA: I see the arrest trend as an extension of the nosy “don’t drink that soda” mentality.

  • Martin Penwald

    Not really. The goal is to punish women who have sex. Either by jailing them in case of miscarriage/abortion or by forcing them to take care of a child they didn’t want. The republic of Gilead is their model.

  • Friend

    Separate but equal, eh?

    special class of persons

  • Mel

    TBF, only Jill’s youngest….Sam, I think, is his name …. is known to have been in the NICU after what I suspect was an attempt at a home birth after C-section that went terribly wrong.

    Jill and Joy each had an attempted home birth that ended in a C-section due to massive breech babies for Izzy and Gideon. Jessa’s had two home births, but she ended up having a major postpartum hemorrhage after Spurgeon (how I hate that name) was born and needed a transfusion.

    Jinger – on the other hand – went through the song-and-dance of ‘preparing’ for a home birth or birth at a unregulated center – but happily was induced at 39 weeks with her daughter which leads me to think there was a real medical professional involved in the process.

    Ironically, if they had chosen to use medical professionals, they’d be more likely to have larger families. A lot of the number of babies a woman can have is simply luck of genetics – but laboring for 72 hours followed by 40 hours on a C-section scar is a great way to mess up the uterus.

    I have a cousin who married 8 years ago. Since then, they’ve had six children with no multiple births. One of the kids was in the NICU for a few days when he was born at 34-35 weeks. Having that many small children is not my cup of tea – heck, most days Spawn feels like three kids – but some women can pull it off with the help of obstetrics.

  • Mel

    Women certainly have the right to choose how much of their bodily autonomy they are willing to give up to keep a pregnancy. I was quite willing to accept a much higher risk of death or disability for myself to give my son a better chance of survival – but that was a choice I made, not a choice forced upon me by a judge who will never face that kind of decision.

    That’s a completely different idea from claiming that any woman who gets pregnant automatically signs away her rights.

  • Martin Penwald

    Interestingly, I heard an archive from 1946 from Radio-Canada a couple of weeks ago on a related subject. It was the recording of a conference given by an unidentified guy who pointed classes of people with less civic rights than standard people. He listed children, mentally disabled people, convicts and MARRIED women.
    He pointed how absurd it was that women were losing rights after getting married. Even if the subject was divorce, it’s the same mentality at work.

  • Friend

    There are still news stories about women who postpone treatment of cancer diagnosed during pregnancy: they CHOOSE to put themselves at risk for the sake of the baby. The stories are about voluntary actions.

    But under these newly passed laws, voted in by legislators with complete ignorance about science, will all newly diagnosed patients be allowed to start cancer treatment during pregnancy? I am not sure that oncology would be a guaranteed service in every hospital in every state.

  • Nea

    doctors, hospitals and testing was considered idolatry

    But that MAKES NO SENSE! On one hand, they demand endless babies; on the other, they discourage the experts who could help you have the highest number of healthy babies. Did nobody see how contrary that was, or were they all just secretly itching to shit all over anyone who couldn’t do the impossible?

  • Nea

    Not only is there a genetic crapshoot that the girls could inherit their mother’s fecundity, said mother and father essentially deliberately undercut their daughter’s health and therefore their own ability to bear. Feeding kids nutritional shit all their life like “tater tot casserole” is one form of undercutting them; leaving them in a high-stress environment is another. And what about those girls’ childhoods wasn’t high stress? They’re in a high-demand cult and keep getting sent off to abusive “retraining” centers. Before TV there literally weren’t enough pots to piss in; after TV there were cameras in their faces, and during it all there was a sexual predator preying with impunity on them.

  • Friend

    I have read your story four times now. So much pain. Thank you for finding the words to share.

  • Nea

    Considering how hard their lives have been, I would be willing to bet cash money that all of those girls is willing to have a “goddidit” reason for fewer babies to deal with themselves.

  • I am one of the few women I personally know who hasn’t had a miscarriage. I always felt bad for my mother-in-law who had 3 live births, 3 miscarriages, a stillbirth, and who had to have her uterus removed for medical reasons. Her mother had 6 kids and her mother-in-law had 11, both large Catholic families. She received a lot of comments, hurtful, painful comments.

  • SAO

    Let’s not forget the issue of the mother’s life. I read a story about a doctor whose patient’s pregnancy threatened her kidneys. Yes, there are kidney transplants and there’s dialysis, but the waiting list for kidneys is long and dialysis seriously shortens someone’s life. He could be jailed for doing an abortion that wasn’t to save the mother’s life. So, his question was, what legally counts as “saving the mother’s life.” It was clear to him that the abortion was necessary to preserve the mother’s long-term life, but the situation was not immediately life-threatening. So, he called the hospital attorneys who got him on the phone with the legislator. The mother got the abortion, but the doctor complained about vague language that was not helpful for doctors dealing in the real world.

  • Martin Penwald

    So, basically, they’ve been set up for failure, and it is their fault. I so much hope they can flee this toxic environment.

  • Jennny

    Yes, in the UK, for centuries, unbaptised and stillborn babies were not allowed to be buried in their local churchyard with the rest of the deceased in their family. Parish priests were on call 24/7 to rush to baptise a dying neonate so that it didn’t have to suffer the disgrace of burial in unconsecrated ground and the belief it was in hell.(Occasionally, my anglican priest daughter tells me, she’s been called out in the middle of the night to perform the ceremony for a very sick newborn…and whatever our faith or lack of it, one can’t deny anything that comforts parents in that horrific situation even though anglican rules got changed on that some years ago.)

  • SAO

    Yes, but how will the nanny state know if you had a miscarriage? When I had mine, it was a slow moving thing. Took weeks of spotting, no spotting, less spotting, more spotting. As I stopped believing my pregnancy would end in a healthy baby, I became tense and miserable, particularly when the subject of pregnancy, babies and kids came up, which it frequently did, as I worked in a department of women. At some point, my doctor told me if I did miscarry, I needed to have a check, as if it was not a complete miscarriage, I’d need to have a D&C, because dead fetal tissue lingering in the uterus causes sepsis. Imagine how cheerful I felt on hearing my wanted, planned pregnancy might end in a D&C. Then, the miscarriage happened and the doctor said 1) it was complete and 2) about 30% of first pregnancies end in miscarriage, and a future pregnancy was likely to be normal (it was) . It was a HUGE relief.

    Some acquaintances noticed that I’d been tense and miserable when pregnant and became much happier when the pregnancy was over and drew some conclusions about what had actually ended my pregnancy and it wasn’t miscarriage.

    I’d been to the doctor several times, so had “proof”. But a friend who had only conceived after years of fertility treatment and IVF got pregnant when her insurance didn’t cover maternity benefit (ah, the lovely days before Obamacare!) because why pay for it. She’d had a number of previous miscarriages, so she didn’t go to the doctor when she miscarried. It would only be paying for him to tell her something she already knew.

    The Georgia laws say if a woman goes out of state for an abortion, she can be prosecuted for murder on her return. How are they going to know? Without being intrusive? If the conceptus/embryo/fetus is a person, then a prosecutor might make the case that a “murderer” might “murder” again and should be held in jail pending trial.

    Oh, and, fun fact — fetal heartbeat bills don’t actually measure the heartbeat, but electrical activity in fetal cells, as most abortions are performed before the embryo has a circulatory system or a heart.

  • SAO

    Because a loving God would certainly deny heaven to a baby who failed to survive until baptism. No, off to hell they go. Or, in the fun Catholic version, to purgatory.

  • States will have to police pregnancy tests. You can buy them at Dollar Tree. Can you imagine having to sign a registry to get a pregnancy test? What if you weren’t pregnant, but your your coworkers skewed your cycle? If they’re really going to enforce this, they’ll have to require that you demonstrate that your test was negative.

    Unless all of this is just smoke and mirrors to make it look like state legislatures are actually doing something but are, in fact, doing nothing. It looks good for reelection, but they may not enforce it. I think that it will put too great of a burden on the system — providing healthcare for high risk pregnancies and indigents, policing to see who is pregnant, prosecuting cases, and then the cost to keep prisoners. Oh, and medicaid and welfare and SSI….

    How far are they going to take it?

    Is birth control outlawed as well?

  • Saraquill

    “Something something purity, something something don’t question us” is the likely answer.

  • Saraquill

    In an ethics textbook I had, it compared two women in the news at around the same time for having babies. One was a PoC drug addict arrested for endangering her fetus. The other was a married white woman celebrated for having septuplets, despite putting a large number of fetuses in danger.

  • Nea

    What class of persons would that be, chattel slave?

  • Nea

    Several forms of birth control are listed in at least one of these trap bills, on the basis that it’s some form of stealth abortion. IUDs because they might prevent implantation of a zygote, and I think the pill because the lawmakers don’t or won’t grasp that it prevents ovulation, not implantation. Completely unmedical, but so’s the rest of the bullshit.

  • bekabot

    Adding to the pain of people who desperately want children by blaming them for their lack of childbearing is just sick.

    These people aren’t interested in saving babies; they’re interested in condemning women. That’s the way it’s always been. It’s just that recently, it’s become undeniable, probably because they’ve quit trying to deny it. They focus in on a woman who’s pregnant or a woman who’s having a difficult pregnancy or a woman whose pregnancy failed for the same reason any abuser or predator would — because it’s then that she’s at her most vulnerable and because it’s then that she can most easily be run to earth. An abuser who kicks a pregnant woman in the stomach is kicking her because she’s pregnant; he’s attacking because her enhanced vulnerability is a target of which he wants to take advantage. The pregnant woman’s vulnerability is an opportunity: he isn’t kicking her in spite of the fact that she’s pregnant; he’s kicking her because of it. These people operate in exactly the same way and they do know what they’re doing. They’re too good at it not to know. I have no use for them.

  • Mel

    It’s slippery – and not that slippery at the same time. See, a lot of the most gung-ho pro-lifers turn out to be squeamish about micro-preemies and children with disabilities. They claim that they would LOVE to adopt the flood of babies because there are so few adoptable kids right now – but that’s a load of horse-shit. There are a lot more adoptive parents than there are white babies who have no prenatal drug exposure, excellent prenatal care and born at term. If you are willing to adopt a baby of color whose mom might have drank and didn’t realize she was pregnant until 4-5 months, the wait in my area is measured in weeks to months, not years. Plus, there’s all the kids who are in foster care – and they need parents, too.

    Side note: ECMO isn’t much help for most preemies. It’s usually used for kids are close to term that are born with lung issues that can be fixed by giving the kid’s lungs some time to heal. My son was born at a Level 4 NICU (one of two in Michigan). During his 4 months he was there, they had two kids on ECMO out of around 10 micro-preemies and floods of near-term babies.

    Practically, survival rates are <10% for 22 weekers, upto 30% for 23 weekers, 50% by the beginning of week 24, 75% by week 25 and around 90% by week 26. The bit that pro-lifers do not like to hear about is that 26-weekers like my son have something like a 50-75% chance of having a moderate or severe disability – and that means that the family will have at least several years of outpatient medical or therapy appointments that make holding a full-time job for one parent nearly impossible. And 26-weekers are at the 'lucky' end of the spectrum of micro preemies. We saw parents who were having to commute to and from jobs while their 23-weeker was hospitalized for six months or longer.

  • Saraquill

    In her memoir, Cupcake Brown details the abuse she suffered during the one pregnancy she wanted. She was forced to live with someone eager to slut shame the girl and end Cupcake’s pregnancy by any means possible.

  • bekabot

    My point would be, not that all this stuff happened, but that it happened while she open to attack, because that’s the time during which she could be gotten to, and her attackers knew it. The anti-abortion laws which have recently been passed are guaranteed to precipitate crises in countless women’s lives, even in the lives of women who don’t want an abortion and aren’t looking for one, and you’d have a hard time convincing me that they weren’t written to do precisely that. Women who are undergoing a crisis can be pounced on. Women who are undergoing a crisis can be laid low. That’s the reason and the purpose behind all of this. Of course and as per usual, that’s only my opinion, but I’m pretty darned sure I’m right.

    Added: they’re called ‘trap bills’ for a reason.

  • AFo

    Poor Lauren. I feel like she’s way too young to have fully processed the miscarriage before getting pregnant again. Not to mention that the “support” she probably got was nothing more than “We’ll pray for you!” I truly hope it works out for them this time.

  • nmgirl

    can’t remember from the book. Does the actual wife raise the child or does the handmaid?

  • bekabot

    I am not one of the few women I personally know who’s never had a miscarriage, and what that says to me is that it’s more common than people think.

  • AFo

    I remember after Sam’s birth, there was lots of speculation on what went wrong and why he was in the hospital for longer than the other babies. I’ve also heard that the “real” reason Jill and Derek were fired from the show is that she can’t conceive anymore, and therefore provides no storylines for them. Whatever happened, it’s clear that Jill herself was basically an afterthought.

  • nmgirl

    That was part of Texas’ plan to require all miscarriages to have funeral services. They wanted ‘someone’ to decide if it was a real miscarriage.

  • nmgirl

    I did some google-fu and found out at that at 18 days after conception, the potential fetus is less than 1/2 inch long. Why don’t these a-holes put THAT on a billboard.

  • nmgirl

    Same question about all the so-called True Christians that are afraid of death.

  • SAO

    The uterus being tipped the “wrong” way is not a hindrance to pregnancy. Something like 20% of women have tipped uteri and as a pregnancy progresses, the uterus straightens, regardless of which way it started out.

    That a uterus is “backwards” is more of an issue for diagnosing problems, because it a doctor can’t feel it through the abdomen. Further, diagnostic tests assume it’s the more common way.

  • SAO

    The support in this country for people with disabilities is abysmal. My brother was on a waiting list for housing for probably 10 years. My parents sued the state over it. After my mother died, when my father was grieving, lonely AND struggling with chronic heart failure, he failed to fill out the forms to renew my brother’s Medicaid on time. It landed in my sister’s lap with a little less than 2 months to spare, which should be plenty of time, but her first application was rejected and no one could tell her what she needed to do. She said she was on hold for a total of 20 hours in the process of getting it done. None of the people in the agency could rush something. In the end, my brother got kicked off Medicaid and couldn’t get reinstated for a few months. In other states, they make you wait a year.

    In the mean time, his housing, his transportation to work, and his SSDI require recertification that he’s handicapped, which generally requires a neuro-psych evaluation, as he doesn’t neatly fit into any categories.

    My sister, a successful entrepreneur commented that she’d borrowed millions of dollars with less hassle and documentation than my brother needs to get a subsidized apartment that is saving him a few thousand/year.

    And, my brother lives in a state with some of the best services for the handicapped and in a town with plenty of resources, too. Without family support, he’d be homeless. In my state, handicapped homeless people tend to end up in jail. The Corrections Department cares for more of the mentally ill than the Department of Mental Health.

  • SAO

    Actually, abortion pills will be available on the internet or from the people who sell men steroids. If they ban pregnancy tests, those will be mail order or black market, too.

  • persephone

    Women aren’t really human. We’re a knock-off, not the genuine article. You don’t have to take care of a knock-off, since it’s so cheap and easily replaced.

  • persephone

    The wife. The handmaid is just the incubator. I don’t remember, but I think they would return the handmaid to the nunnery after the birth, so the handmaid would not have physical contact with the child.

    ETA: Also so the husbands wouldn’t get attached.

  • Mel

    The Wife had complete control over raising the child – but the handmaiden was kept around for the first year to breastfeed the child – on paper at least. One of the servants (I think) mentioned that everyone knew that the Handmaiden never made it to the end of the year because the Wife generally got too jealous before the end of the year.

  • Mel

    I totally believe you. Anything involving my son requires hours of time on the phone. We ended a partnership for a family farm with several million dollars in assets a whole lot faster than I’ve been able to do anything involving the state and my son.

  • B.A.

    I hope you’re not friends with him anymore. He sounds like an asshole.

  • persephone

    IMO, the kids grew up malnourished, especially the older kids, before the TV show money. They lived on starchy foods, very little protein, and I don’t remember seeing vegetables or fruit. Their stomachs may have been full, but necessary vitamins and minerals weren’t in their diet, and I doubt they bought supplements to make up the difference. I doubt they’ve had one true healthy meal in their lives. I’m sure they’re cooking the exact same way that Michelle did, with lots of corn and potatoes, and not much else.

  • Mimc

    There version of tatter tot casserole sounds pretty bad too. Turkey instead of bed, no mushrooms, no green beans, talk about bland.

  • persephone

    They’re pushing to overturn Roe, but the extremism of the laws may be too much. They can be fought on any number of grounds.

  • persephone

    I think they’re even small than that at 18 days. I just looked up a photo series, and it appears that around 22 days, they’re about 5 millimeters long.

  • persephone

    I’ve asked that several times and I NEVER get a response, just as when I point out that the Bible makes clear that God is pro-abortion.

  • Mimc

    There are a lot of incompatible genetic combinations. Most of the time miscarriages are that kind of thing and have nothing to do with anything anyone did. But ignoring science is right up there with judging others is on the list of fundies favorite things so I don’t expect them to ever acknowledge that.

  • paganheart

    Derek going on social media to whine about TLC not offering any help with Sam’s medical bills probably didn’t endear him to producers, either. (Though as I recall, the official reason for his firing was his shameful social media attack on the transgender star of another TLC show.)

    My sister needed an emergency hysterectomy when her VBAC attempt went horribly wrong, and I’ll bet at some point, we find out that the same happened to Jill.

  • But can we drive in the car pool lane? It might be the only upside.
    https://i.redd.it/0cbi7ri1glx21.jpg

  • Those stats are another factor to consider. How do you allocate resources and who gets what? If there’s money to be made, someone will exploit it. Are they going to throw technology at saving babies that they sought to preserve? Are the neonatologists going to be the next in line to face the heat? Or will that be passed on to OBs and midwives to figure out? (Who do they make an effort to save and how much of an effort will be made? And who pays for not only the efforts to save babies as soon as their born as well as the policing and prosecution for non-compliance?). It’s not enough just to save the unborn baby if you are only going to boost the infant mortality rate.

    This may not be a large percentage of people, but it is a significant population. I’m afraid that as we seen in Quiverfull that accepts and embraces only the very healthy breeders, are they also going to have the same attitude towards the bungled and botched babies, too? They are already focused on preserving their own brood to let others fend for themselves. Not everyone is, but the people who push the hardest for it tend to fall into that category. And then, you have the ultra fringe like Wilson who says that the non-elect should just execute their babies, and it’s a good thing. It weeds the non-elect out of the gene pool. (Shesh). The sick babies were made ill because their parents weren’t good enough.

  • I think the randiness of the husband has a lot to do with it, too. I wonder if that’s part of Daddy Duggar’s interview, but then the male suitor isn’t supposed to have any experience exploring his attractions and sex-related inclinations. Either way, the girls will be blamed.

  • I don’t know about the Neo-Reformed Baptists today, but most Anabaptists and Dispensationalists espouse a belief in the age of accountability.

    ETA: Statement about Calvinists — I did a search of a bunch of New Calvinists, and several do claim “age of accountability” and argue that since God is just, those babies who die are elected by God to be in heaven. I think that it’s likely more of an idea among Theonomists. http://disq.us/p/21zp71n

    Calvinists believe that there is no “age of accountability.” No one knows who they are but God, but only the elect babies go to heaven. The non-elect babies whom God specifically chose to be vessels unto destruction go to hell.

    This (partially) explains why men like Doug Wilson call for paedobaptism to ensure that they receive all of the benefits that God bestows upon the ‘covenant community.’ If the parents aren’t part of the community (not actively attending church at the time), the child is at risk for going to hell. It may also (partially) explain his opinion that Christians should not worry too much about stopping the non-elect from having abortions.

    People in the IFB will also say that babies go to hell — even telling that to bereaved parents at a funeral. I don’t know how they get around King David writing that he knew that his son with Bathsheba would be with him one day in heaven.

    Doug Phillips told families that if a woman had surgery for an ectopic pregnancy (the majority of which are tubal), the baby automatically went to hell. He was not astute enough to realize that by the time a woman had symptoms of shock from a ruptured tubal, those babies that are generally not viable because of altered growth due to confinement anyway had died at the time of the mom’s first symptoms. All kinds of people who followed him believed that they’d unknowingly sent babies to hell. And of course, all aborted babies go to hell.

  • Yeah, and oral contraceptives actually save more babies from dying, if you play it out that way. A sexually active woman who does not use contraception for a year actually has 4-5 conceptions, but because implantation doesn’t take place at the same rate, those conceptions never become pregnancies. If you take OCs that are known to effectively suppress ovulation (which they can tell from ultrasound studies in drug trials), a woman on OCs has under 5 conceptions in five years. By the strict definition of all conceptions counting as pregnancies, the woman who uses no contraception for five years and has no babies has 20-25 babies in heaven that didn’t implant.

  • Note that I am pro-life, and it is argued that “life begins at conception” because there is no truly definitive or mutually agreed upon moment of life for that unborn baby. A fertilized ovum is not a pregnancy. They happen all the time, and it’s the pregnancy that is harder to achieve. The “life at conception” argument only applies to established pregnancies (“the opening of the womb”). But most people can’t process any of that and apply the same arguments that concern established pregnancies to all reproduction issues like contraception. Though related, they are two different issues.

  • As will DIY terminations. (Made available but not on the internet)

  • Jennifer

    So sorry, Jennny. People need to seriously mind their own and I so understand that awful fear of God taking people away. Calvinists like John Piper just confuse matters more; at one point he wrote a mostly beautiful epic poem about Job, with one very toxic paragraph with God pondering out loud to Job if He might take his children so he could “know Him more” (!!!) That was never in the Bible and the addition of it sickens me beyond words. As awful as the world can be and as confusing as struggles in faith are, hard-core Calvinists like him make it ten times worse IMO.

  • Jennifer

    Nailed it!!

  • Jennifer

    Another sign of evil from Wilson.

  • Jennifer

    Yup, and the maids would be re-assigned.

  • Jennifer

    Who else was sent to a retraining center besides Josh??

  • Falconlights

    I was in a straight marriage for a few years and had three miscarriages. Luckily, my husband was not a Quiverfull nut and didn’t blame me. The Quiverfull people are idiots. Sometimes a miscarriage occurs because of serious genetic damage to the blastocyst and it fails to implant or implants but then is cast loose. It is a blessing for the blastocyst. Sometimes there are no reasons at all. Just leave the couple alone. Don’t opine on why there may be few or no children from a marriage. A certain percentage of marriages produce no children. That is life. Deal with it. Don’t take it out on someone who’s already feeling bad as it is.

  • Jennifer

    I’m so sorry you lost those children, Cindy. I can only be grateful they didn’t suffer in the womb like some, and that you eventually got away from those who caused you nothing but pain.

    Of course Christians mourn their dead like anyone else, and that includes women suffering great pain after miscarriages. Because we still don’t like losing people we love even with the wonderful comfort of heaven. Because a mother who loses her unborn child would still have loved to hold them, raise them and know them. Because we still have things on earth we very much want to do and people we love and don’t want to leave yet. I lost my third aunt last month and I’m glad she’s free from ALS and in heaven, but I wish like hell she was still here.

  • Jennifer

    Oh my Lord..I knew that bastard said horrible things about women who allowed ectopic babies to be removed, but he ALSO said those babies’ souls were doomed??

  • Jennifer

    How ironic, how things have changed. I understand laws that require any dead to be handled with respect, but enforcing funeral services is different.

  • Jennifer

    Most of us are still not eager to die. We have families we love and death is an unknown thing to us.

  • Jennifer

    I read a Quiverful article once opining about the presence of birth control, and how people outside the marriage used to wonder what was up if there were no children because they could be proof things were ok in the marriage (since they mean sex is taking place). That was considered a barometer of how healthy a marriage was, which most people now know is foolish and nosy thinking to boot. But the author of that article considered the latter MAJOR nosiness of old a GOOD thing, indicating it was regrettable that people no longer think this way, and man I blew a freaking gasket. It is NO ONE’S business how often a couple has sex, and NO ONE’S business if the couple is fecund or deliberately not; the neighbors and church members don’t NEED to know how hunky-dory things are or are not.

  • Nea

    Weren’t all of the molested girls sent away to the female version of retraining? I thought they were.

  • Nea

    So they’re basically unhealthy and raising their generation equally unhealthy – unhealthier, as presumably their own parents weren’t, say, anti-vax.

  • Falconlights

    I agree with you 100%. It is the couple alone who should decide if they want children, or don’t how often they have sex, and all the rest of it.

  • Nea

    “I don’t understaaaaaand why people are leaving my religion in droves! I ooooonly told a grieving woman her baby was in hell, I didn’t do anything wroooooong!”

  • gimpi1

    Part of the risk in these bills is the simply staggering amount of ignorance and misinformation surrounding them. The (mostly) men writing these laws don’t understand how human reproduction works, or how it goes wrong. If one counts the failure of a fertilized ovum to implant as a miscarriage (and the ‘life begins at conception’ croud does) the miscarriage is the most common result of conception. Over-zealously applied, these laws could make most women into criminals. If I were still in my reproductive years and lived in Alabama or Georgia, I’d either get a tubal ligation or move

  • gimpi1

    To me, that’s a perfect example of new justification for old rules. In days gone by, when people had no expectation of a just society, nobody expected a just afterlife. Stillborn babies wereconsidered consigned to hell, and while people mourned that, they didn’t rail at the injustice of it.

    That belief also explained the emphasis on the baby over the mother in childbirth; the mother was presumed to be baptized and saved. She was (likely) bound for heaven. If the baby died before it went through the proper rites, it was damned, so it was of paramount importance that it survive long enough for those rites to take place. The unbaptized before the baptized.

    Then, beliefs changed. Societies in general because more just. Basic justice became an expectation, even if it was seldom lived up to perfectly. As an expectation of justice became common, the injustice of condemning infants to supposedly eternal suffering for the ‘sin’ of dying before they could be baptized began to grate on the senses of believers. Over time, a new doctrine, the “age of accountibility” was born.

    But the rule of prioritizing the baby over the mother remained. New beliefs were created to validate the old rule. You see many of them in ‘pro-life’ arguments.

  • SAO

    It makes me angry, because the agencies that are supposed to ‘serve’ the handicapped see their role as paperpushers and gatekeepers. So, a hell of a lot of ‘support’ for the handicapped is really about making it more difficult for them to receive support.

  • Lisa Cybergirl

    Spurgeon

    REALLY? My god, they should have been investigated for child abuse as soon as the poor kid was named.

  • Saraquill

    I’m not disagreeing with you, more bringing up an example I’ve read in the past.

  • Saraquill

    The above incident happened after we stopped talking. I was reading it on a public forum, and the responses were not in his favor.

  • Friend

    Every bit of this denies the power of Jesus’ crucifixion and resurrection. Why did He bother?

  • Jennifer

    I only heard of Josh being sent, at some point getting “sternly spoken to” by someone in authority who turned out to have filth about kids on his phone. The Duggars thought J and his problem were dealt with and considered the issue fixed.

  • Covenant Theology only allows for a Penal Substitution view of the Atonement (the Cross allows Jesus to pay our price for sin), though I get the impression that some also borrow Jonathan Edward’s view of a Governmental View (which grants a special power/anointing) to the Church to change society. Jesus didn’t die for all of the sins of the world – only the sin of the elect.

    In great contrast, most Protestants believe in the Christus Victor view of the atonement which imbues believers with a power to resist sin, death (which includes health/healing), and the devil. Liberation theology also springs from the Christus Victor view.

    I see a lot of this when John Piper does his timely tear crying from the pulpit, going on about how powerless he is over sin. I don’t think that they realize that they are glorifying sin and handing more of their own power over to it which becomes justification of their free will. They would protest the idea that their doctrine facilitates freewillism in this this way, but that’s how I see it. It also explains the more subtle connection to following the Old Testament (moral) Law and why Theonomists call for a return to Old Testament civil laws. It becomes a works-driven process.

    There is also a Calvinist spinoff doctrine called Sonship Theory which laments on their powerless. Sanctification (maturation or the spiritual growth process of being made set apart from sin) doesn’t happen because of the sovereign work of the Holy Spirit. It is accomplished by “beholding God.” So if you don’t study your Bible or theology or whatever, you don’t mature. (It is human driven.).

    ETA: Please note this additional comment. While it doesn’t negate this concept, upon searching for examples, I found no examples of such an argument online. It’s interesting to me that the concept is one that needs to be explored because it presents a pitfall or weakness in this view of mankind. http://disq.us/p/21zp71n

  • Friend

    Mercy!

  • To be fair and honest, I did just review what a bunch of heavy hitters in the New Calvinist movement have written. Basically, they say that infants go to heaven because they don’t sin willingly and use a circular argument to say that God ordains babies who die in infancy to be elect. I am surprised to find that many mention the age of accountability argument and affirm the idea that God is just, not holding someone who sins in ignorance to be morally culpable. This applies to children, but they deny that it applies to adults.

    https://pulpitandpen.org/2013/08/23/what-happens-to-infants-when-they-die/

    This article (by one of the men who claimed that Rachel Held Evans went to hell) says that those who say that Calvinists believe that babies go to hell have created a straw man. I do know and have had discussions with people who argue that some babies go to hell. I also know of others who lost children and were told that their babies went to hell. I know of someone else used the death of a child to debate the idea with the bereaved parents.

  • zizania

    I find myself wondering how difficult it would be to have yourself sterilized in Alabama or any of the states with draconian abortion laws. If I had as many children as I wanted, or didn’t want any, and if I knew I’d be forced to carry an unwanted pregnancy to term and could be prosecuted (seriously?!) for a miscarriage, I’d be getting my tubes tied at the earliest opportunity. I had mine done after my son was born, as I knew I wasn’t planning to have any more. I was actually surprised at how easy it was to arrange, but that was in Canada, not the Bible Belt.

  • Saraquill

    I don’t think we want to know. Buck vs. Bell was never overturned, meaning it’s still legal to forcible sterilize “undesirables.”

  • zizania

    Dang. Now I’m even more glad that I live in Old Hippy Paradise and generally only get proselytized to by militant vegans.

  • JetGirl

    Gosh, it’s like they don’t value women as anything other than broodmares. Shocking.

  • Zeldacat

    Seven? That must have been awful on several levels. I’m sorry that happened to you.

  • The Bofa on the Sofa

    Women certainly have the right to choose how much of their bodily autonomy they are willing to give up to keep a pregnancy.

    Not really, no. In fact, their ability to choose to go through the pregnancy is do the things they do is not “giving up” autonomy, it is EXPRESSING their autonomy.

    You know what I say, Mel – “Autonomy is manifested in the ability to choose, not in the choices that are made.” Choosing to have a child is no less about autonomy than choosing to have an abortion. Both actions are expressions of body autonomy.

  • The Bofa on the Sofa

    That was Jen Gunter (not a “he”) who went through that.

    And it has been pointed out to her that, while she did what she had to do to clarify the situation, the advice she got from the legislator was actually non-binding and didn’t really get her off the hook. It would technically require a court case to resolve it. That doesn’t do much good, though, for the mother trying to decide what to do.

  • otrame

    Notice that nobody ever suggests that the lack of a baby might be because of problems with the male.

    My eldest and his wife wanted a kid, but after two years of enthusiastic unprotected sex, no kids. They went to a doc where it was discovered my kid had a low sperm count. Pregnancy was considered unlikely but not impossible. They decided to maybe adopt after college. It was another four years when his wife finally got pregnant.

    Note that low sperm count is a fairly common thing.

  • GeckoShamelessRaceMixer

    How sad. It’s sad enough if you have miscarriages, or miscarriages and no children, but at least out here in the real world you can move beyond self blame and process your grief and eventually find a cause or craft or meaning to devote yourself to instead of children.

  • GeckoShamelessRaceMixer

    Wut

  • GeckoShamelessRaceMixer

    That’s a lot of miscarriages. I’m sorry. :/

  • GeckoShamelessRaceMixer

    You know it seems our legal history has progressively pushed back against this notion of special classes of persons.

  • GeckoShamelessRaceMixer

    Yeah, they don’t stop to consider that total abortion bans mean your state is going to have considerably higher a maternal mortality, infant mortality, and birth defect rate, with a much higher Medicaid bill. Or at least that’s not what they’re selling. They’re selling bouncing healthy babies and parents who however reluctant to start, wind up blissfully happy and magically able to raise and provide for their babies.

  • GeckoShamelessRaceMixer

    Exactly. Why should the requirement be imminent death? Is it somehow acceptable that the pregnancy kills that woman five years later?

  • GeckoShamelessRaceMixer

    Seven is a lot, too, sorry to hear that.

  • GeckoShamelessRaceMixer

    We’ve had people jailed for taking abortion pills without a doctor’s prescription or guidance. We’ve had people jailed for being on drugs while pregnant. It’s not a far stretch that somewhere in a state with a total abortion ban someone will get caught up in this logic and be blamed for a miscarriage and arrested.

  • GeckoShamelessRaceMixer

    Yep

  • GeckoShamelessRaceMixer

    Seriously not fine. Not anyone’s choice but the would be parents involved.

  • Aloha

    Also, infertile couples are not allowed to access anything but the most simple fertility treatments. They cannot use a surrogate, and even adoption could get looks of suspicion (per Gothard’s theory that sin is inherited.)

  • Mel

    Oh, Bofa – be very careful when you assume that autonomy is a given since excellent medical professionals rarely explain every option available to a patient.

    Let’s discuss: I had a great OB. Really nice, up-to-date, skilled woman. She was on the ball and I have no complaints about how she handled my case – but that’s not quite the same as saying I was given all the available options. My OB set up a plan of care to stabilize me and put off delivery as long as possible so Spawn could get prenatal steroids. It’s a solid plan – and worked in our case – but there were at least three other options that were never discussed:

    1) Load me up with blood products, get Spawn out ASAP to avoid a ruptured liver blood vessel, stroke, seizures or a heart attack for me, and deal with the resulting issues for Spawn as best the medical team can.

    2) Spawn had a >60% of mild or moderate cognitive, sensory, pulmonary, gastrointestinal, and/or neuromuscular disability and a higher chance developmental delays in the moderate or severe category – but at no point was an abortion offered. TBF, I was past the termination limitations for my state and probably too ill for transport – but I’m not certain on that second point because it was never discussed.

    3) Making plans based on placing Spawn up for adoption rather than raising him. “But, Mel, that’s not a medical decision!” says a random objector. Ah – but that ignores the fact that in the US women face a much higher burden of caregiving and a much higher level of social rejection for ‘abandoning’ a person who needs care – especially a child. I was making my choices based on my own risk level – but I was also trying to limit my caregiving burden in the long run at the same time. A doctor who was truly concerned about autonomy in decision making would have explained that I did not necessarily have to deal with the fallout of a child who had a severely compromised pulmonary system (as Spawn would have had if we went with an immediate C-section) if I relinquished him at birth.

    The kicker? There’s no bad person in this scenario. My doctor wasn’t purposefully excluding the other three options – she was following the best-practices for a 26 week pregnant woman with Class One HELLP syndrome – but therein the problem lies. It’s damned hard to train doctors to follow best practices AND think up every possible option for a given patient. It’s damned hard to get patients to be active participants in medical decisions AND not be overwhelmed by the decisions they are making.

  • lady_black

    I would pick my survival over a fetus, every time.

  • Suzanne Harper Titkemeyer

    Not just that, but he is also presuming all doctors keep up with all new ideas and procedures. While I was waiting for an appointment with a ENT at Johns Hopkins that treats opera singers and the like it was a lengthy multi-month wait. They wanted to evaluate me vocal cord movement syndrome to see if it was a factor in my asthma. This doctor was well known for vocal cords. I went to my local ENT guy who I knew well socially because I didn’t want to wait and I wanted a second opinion. We’d gone to college together. He told me he didn’t understand why I would be interested in ruling out VCMS because it was a disease of hysterical mentally ill women. Which is what they taught about it during the years he was in school, but has since been disproven. He was unable to make that determination, and I had to wait anyway to see the specialist. Turns out VCMS was part of my problem, exposure to allergens would make my vocal cords slam shut and I’d black out during an asthma attack. The Hopkins doc got me hooked up with a great physical therapist who taught me how to stop that from happening. My old pal was still grumbling about hysterical women. You really have to carefully select your physicians.

  • Khaleesi

    I remember when I was first diagnosed with depression and was struggling. I don’t know how many people told me that I probably had un-repented sins in my life and that I needed to trust god more to be happy. I was only 16.

    The idea of having a “sin problem” in your life causing everything bad that happens to you is just so toxic.

  • B.E. Miller

    Isn’t that a ‘thing’ in “The Handmaid’s Tale”, that it’s outright illegal to say that a Wife’s barrenness is her husband’s fault. (Which is why Commander Fred might be having issues getting a child.)

  • GeckoShamelessRaceMixer

    The idea that you can just try to be happy and you will be and that Christianity or life in general is just supposed to be non-stop happiness is toxic itself

  • Jennifer

    I can’t believe how relatively recently they taught that bullshit!

  • 24CaratHooligan

    I was brought up in that toxic environment, and although I never professed christianity enough of it lingers that to this day I fear that my one and only offspring might be taken away as “punishment”. I will never understand why the sheep think a cruel god testing you is better than random shit happening because random shit happens. ((())) for you and your children

  • And they’ll start searching the mail. That’s what they did in Ireland until recently.

  • PrettyPagan

    I believe they view women rather as they do cattle. They actually organise their ‘breeding’ in a similar way. As for the issue of “consent” again they view this as unnecessary or should I say inappropriate… In as much as you would use your car to get to an appointment or whatever they use a woman. You would not think to ask your car if it minded you taking a trip into town or whether it objected if you brought along 2 hefty companions & I think this is how the consent issue is viewed among those with such a archaic & totally inhumane viewpoint. They simply do NOT believe a woman should object to being used just as your car has no thoughts of being used. Perhaps a bit of a weird analogy to make but perhaps you can get where I’m coming from?!! The way these bible thumping hypocrites think & act fills me with absolute horror, I’ve read just about every book on this subject & have only increased in my rejection of anything Quiverful or approaching it.

  • Cynthia

    I got pregnant again fairly quickly after my miscarriages. No, I hadn’t fully processed my first loss when I got pregnant with Girl 1 – but I’m not sure what fully processing it would have looked like. I was grieving and I had feelings of shame and I wanted a baby. A lot of those feelings persisted through the pregnancy with Girl 1, but at least I knew a baby was on the way. Her birth was ultimately what improved my mood, and it did so pretty dramatically.