John MacArthur accuses half-a-billion Christians of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit

See also the following posts: 

Today one in four of the two billion people who identify themselves as Christians are Charismatics or Pentecostals (ref).  I want to be absolutely clear that I am very happy to identify myself as one of their number.  Do I have concerns about some charismatic leaders? Of course!  Do I believe that abuses have occurred in many places? YES.  There are some who call themselves charismatics, but their beliefs and practices are frankly unbiblical. Surely there are extremes in every movement.

Unapologetically, I do believe that much good is coming out of our movement. The Charismatics and Pentecostals are acknowledged by experts to be  proliferating like no other previous movement in history. It seems to me that the movement contains many  vibrant, faith-filled people who have a deep trust in God, a sense of a relationship with God, and a strong desire to share the gospel.  Outside of the West the Charismatic and Pentecostal Movement dominates the Evangelical church.  Whether you are Charismatic or not yourself, I hope you agree that these hundreds of millions of people are our brothers and sisters in Christ, and that we share in salvation together as one Body.

You can imagine then that I was a bit disappointed  when I first heard that John MacArthur was hosting a conference entitled “Strange Fire,” about what he feels are the errors of the Charismatic Movement. It seems pretty clear from this title and the use of Leviticus 10:1–2 that this is likely to be a conference hostile to the ideas I hold dear. But, of course I accept that there are cessationsts who think differently on these issues. I concluded that there was nothing I needed to say about it at the time.

What has totally shocked and appalled me now, however, is viewing the brief clip with which I end this post. In it John MacArthur accuses the charismatic movement as a whole of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit:

Here is a transcript of the relevant portions:

“Why don’t evangelical leaders speak against this movement?  Why is their such silence? Look When somebody attacks the person of Christ the Evangelical world rises up and says “no, no, no!”  . . . the Holy Spirit has been under massive assault for decades and decades, and Ive been asking the question ‘where are the people rising up in protest against the abuse and the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit?‘ The only thing I can suggest is that they have been literally backed up into a corner by intimidation that they need to be loving and accepting and tolerant and not divisive in the body of Christ, thats been the mantra. . .”

This clip does not appear to limit the accusation of blasphemy but applies it the whole movement. This is very serious and concerning since Jesus describes  blasphemy against the Holy Spirt as the unforgivable sin (Mark 3:28-29).  Christians should not accuse one another lightly of this sin.

I have reviewed the other other media clips by MacArthur and in various places he speaks of  “aberrations, heresies, terrible manipulation and deception,”  claims that in the Charismatic Movement an implanting of the Word of God into people “just doesn’t happen,” and that the movement has a “wrong understanding of Scripture.”

Its clear that MacArthur is an extreme cessationist as he even states in one of these clips that he believes that we cannot bind Satan, something that I am surprised to hear, since even traditional denominations have exorcism rites.

In the clip “Why is it important to warn people against charismatic error?” he assumes that all charismatics teach that if you give them money you will get health and wealth.  He then states,“people caught up in any kind of error are cut off from God’s blessing.”  I really feel that is again going too far.

For example, take baptism. I presume that since we are both baptists, MacArthur and I would agree that, if what we believe turns out to be correct, those who teach and practice infant baptism are in error.  But I would definitely not argue that every pedobaptist is cut off from God’s blessing!

It seems to me that MacArthur has made a fundamental error: He is confusing primary gospel issues with secondary issues. Surely we all believe in the centrality of Christ, in the gospel, in the authority and trustworthiness of Scripture, and in all three persons of the Trinity. Charismatics are definitely Evangelical. These are the things we should contend for, and we have enough enemies already without taking up arms against each other.

I have many friends on both sides of the charismatic debate. I do know many who are solidly reformed and calvinistic, and may even describe themselves as cessationists but would find MacArthur’s tone and generalising unfortunate. There are many in the new reformed movement who would go further and describe themselves as theologically if not experientially charismatic. However, in one video MacArthur seems to take aim against those who are “open but cautious” about these things, claiming certain well known pastors are giving “cover” to true charismatics.

We can have different perspectives on disputable matters. But lets do so as brothers who are one in Christ. Lets be like the elder Arminian John Wesley who shared fellowship with Calvinist Simeon and gladly preached at George Whitefields funeral despite previously describing his doctrine as damnable heresy.

There is a complex spectrum of views on Calvinism and Arminianism which leads to disagreements that will probably never be resolved, and yet many today do not oppose each other on this issue so angrily.  There is a similar specturm on Charismaticism vs cessationism.   These days I generally see a softening of these arguments however. It seems to me that MacArthur’s intervention may have its aim at stoking these fires.

I believe that whatever your view on the charismatic issue you should not be called a blasphemer and heretic.  Do you agree?

UPDATE

A reader has kindly pointed us to a previous sermon in which MacArthur expands on what he means by charismatics blaspheming the Holy Spirit:

“Mostly this comes in the professing church from Pentecostals and Charismatics who feel they have free license to abuse the Holy Spirit and even blaspheme His holy name. And they do it constantly.

How do they do it? By attributing to the Holy Spirit words that He didn’t say, deeds that He didn’t do, and experiences that He didn’t produce, attributing to the Holy Spirit that which is not the work of the Holy Spirit. Endless human experiences, emotional experiences, bizarre experiences and demonic experiences are said to come from the Holy Spirit…visions, revelations, voices from heaven, messages from the Spirit through transcendental means, dreams, speaking in tongues, prophecies, out of body experiences, trips to heaven, anointings, miracles. All false, all lies, all deceptions attributed falsely to the Holy Spirit . . .

The Charismatic Movement has stolen the Holy Spirit and created a golden calf and they’re dancing around the golden calf as if it were the Holy Spirit. It is a false form of the Holy Spirit. They’ve exploited the Holy Spirit and demanded to be able to do that in an uncriticized manner. Nobody can say anything against them. That’s divisive, unloving, cantankerous . . . So the Charismatic version of the Holy Spirit is that golden calf who is not God, not God the Holy Spirit, but a false creation, an idol around which they dance in their dishonoring exercises.

From “The Modern Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit”

 

 

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  • Daniel Philip Calder

    “people caught up in any kind of error are cut off from God’s blessing.”

    It’s clear that John MacArthur only believes this concerning people other than John MacArthur. He had previously rejected eternal generation and then decided he was in error and decided to embrace it yet does not seem to think that he was unregenerate the whole time.

    • http://adrianwarnock.com/ Adrian Warnock

      Interesting about that eternal generation thing. To be honest I’ve not followed him closely for a long while if ever.

      • BJ Stockman

        Thanks for posting this Adrian.

  • Peter Kirk

    Farewell, John MacArthur? If anyone is blaspheming against the Holy Spirit, surely it is him.

    • http://adrianwarnock.com/ Adrian Warnock

      Peter, I really want to be careful about making any such accusations. After all, it’s what Jesus calls the unforgivable sin.

      • BrendtWayneWaters

        Adrian, while I recognize the caution you provide regarding Peter’s second sentence, it should be noted that his first sentence is brilliant and stunningly accurate. Piper’s accusation of Bell leaving the ranch is no less applicable here for J-Mac.

        • Daniel Philip Calder

          I don’t believe John MacArthur’s departure is anywhere near as serious as Rob Bell’s, but I still think it’s clear he should have stepped down a while ago.

          • BrendtWayneWaters

            Not “near as serious”? Assuming for the moment that the accusations of universalism against Bell are accurate (I remain unconvinced), both men have done the EXACT SAME THING — they have made specific declarations of the irreversible salvific condition of others.

          • Daniel Philip Calder

            I certainly believe that both are extremely irresponsible, but I think with respect to Rob Bell, we have someone who is an absolutely transparent charlatan who simply does not take the Bible seriously. I believe MacArthur is sincere but has repeatedly transgressed the command that pastors be beyond reproach and therefore should step down (as he ought to have done many times before).

          • BrendtWayneWaters

            This is not merely (yet another) incident where MacArthur said/did something that should cause him to step down. This is pure heresy he is spouting. Do not let your distaste for Bell give MacArthur even a partial pass on this one.

          • Ed Dingess

            Heresy? Really? Because he smashes the prosperity gospel? Because he refuses to just accept your false prophets? Because he challenges your claim that there are miracle workers still alive? Because he rightly calls your tongues a joke, nothing supernatural whatsoever, something that even a 4 year old can mimic? Get real.

          • BrendtWayneWaters

            Ed, I’ll not respond to all of your comments to me, but this one boils down the entire issue.

            Jesus stated that blasphemy of the Holy Spirit would not be forgiven. According to orthodox Christianity (which MacArthur alleges to embrace), someone who dies with their sin unforgiven goes to hell, no questions asked. MacArthur has stated DEFINITIVELY that all Charismatics blashpeme the Holy Spirit. If MacArthur believes in anything approaching orthodox Christianity, then he is saying that all Charismatics are irreversibly going to hell. In other words, he is claiming to KNOW the salvific condition of others. In other words, he is claiming to be the only One Who knows this information. A man claiming to be God is nothing short of heresy.

            But let’s cut him some slack and say that he doesn’t REALLY believe that all Charismatics are irreversibly going to hell. That means (based on his statement) that he doesn’t believe that all blasphemers of the Holy Spirit are going to hell. Which either means that he doesn’t believe that the unforgiven are going to hell or that Jesus was wrong (about that sin being unforgivable). Both of those views are equally heretical.

            And please cut it with this “your” baloney; you don’t know me from Adam. I’ve been of Charismatic belief less than 10 of the 47 years that I’ve been on this planet, and my evaluation of MacArthur would have been much MORE stern before then. But my statements are tempered now, because I’ve learned a thing or two about grace, something that (ironic radio show titles notwithstanding) doesn’t appear to be on MacArthur’s radar lately.

          • Ed Dingess

            Brendt, nowhere has MacArthur asserted that every single person in the Charismatic movement individually has ipso facto blasphemed the Holy Spirit. The comments are a sweeping generalization. That is my first point. JM is seeking to stir the Church up to respond to a parasite in her midst and he is right. Secondly, JM uses two adjectives: abuse and blaspheme. Not all abuse is blasphemy. He then lists a number of perversions that range from error to abuse to blasphemy. So please try to be fair in your attacks. The facts about the PC movement are pretty straightforward. Few movements have spawned as many dangerous heresies as this movement has. One has to wonder if the movement is so filled with the Holy Spirit, why is it so prone to produce the kinds of errors and heresies that it does? And why do heretics continue to excel and prosper in its ranks if it is, for the most part, so Spirit-filled? T.D. Jakes is a heretic yet prospers as some great man of God. And MOST PC adherents endorse him. Benny Hinn, Hickey, Olsteen, Hagin, Copeland, and on and one I could go. Seems to me that if the movement, as a whole were sound, that such men would have a very hard time being SO extremely successful among its proponents. How odd! We excommunicate people when they teach heresy and we make sure everyone else knows to avoid them. They do NOT prosper. The become the object of public scorn and shame. Your tongues are not biblical tongues, your prophets are either false prophets or superfluous at best, your miracles workers are frauds and proven themselves to be so for decades now, your healing campaigns are scandalous swindler opportunities, etc. The gifts you claim to be gifts of the Holy Spirit are counterfeit gifts. Your tongues are not Pauls. Your healings do not resemble Christ’s. Your miracles are just not miracles. Your promises of health and prosperity based on powerful faith are techniques designed to part the naive and greedy from their own money. MacArthur has rebuked error and rightfully so. He has not for a single moment offended the Holy Spirit. It is the PC movement that guilty of offending the Holy Spirit every time they claim He is working in their midst and it is actually a hyper-emotional experience devised from a human being who is more interested in the dramatic than they are the truth of God which lives eternally.

          • BrendtWayneWaters

            Really, Ed? **That’s** what you’re going to go with? That the *number* of people about whom MacArthur has passed judgment regarding their salvific condition is not as large as I imply? So where’s the cut-off before it becomes heretical to claim divinity? Is it OK if it’s about 10 people but not 100? 1000 but not 10,000? 100,000 but not 1,000,000?

            I guess I shouldn’t be surprised, though, that you would defend claims to divinity, since you deign to definitively tell us MacArthur’s motives (“JM is seeking to stir the Church up …”).

            Also, what part of “please cut it with this ‘your’ baloney” are you having trouble with?

          • Ed Dingess

            The point is, Brent, that MacArthur does not say that EVERY SINGLE Pentecostal is guilty of abuse or blasphemy. If you don’t understand that, I can’t help you. I attend the Shepherd’s Conference each year or try to at least. I listen to JM every day. I have most of his books. My pastor is a TMS grad. My knowledge of JM’s teachings is pretty solid. While I do not always agree with him on everything, this is one that I do. And yes, he asks the question why the Church tolerates the error. Why doesn’t the Church take a stand against these people professing to hear God talking to them all time, professing to speak in biblical tongues, professing to be miracle workers, professing to speak for God, professing to be specially gifted just like the NT Church. Then we see lie after lie after heresy after heresy coming from the movement that is supposedly the one movement that still has the gifts. It is utter nonsense. One would think that since the movement is so gifted that it would be far less prone to error and heresy than it is. I think about Katheryn Kuhlman, Amie Semple McPherson, Benny Hinn, Earnest Angsley, A.A. Allen, W.V. Grant, Jr., Joel Olsteen, T.D. Jakes, Paul Crouch, Ken Copeland, Ken Hagin, Rodney-Howard Browne, etc. I think about the miracle crusades of Allen, or Roberts, and the Kansas City Prophets, the blasphemy that was the Toronto Blessing, The Brownsville Revival, the Laughing Revival and I wonder why the movement has ANY followers left. The fact is, Brent, that unless the movement were in the general widespread condition that MacArthur says it is, these ministries and others would not have the kind of status and success that have had and continue to have over the decades. Sure, they are tiny pockets here and there that have a good head on their shoulders. The error is not nearly so outrageous. But those pockets are not the problem. The problem is the visible PC movement. The one we all see when we go to the bookstore or flip on the TV. THAT is the movement that JM is targeting. And he is right in what he says about it. THAT movement is predominantly characterized by foul abuses of God’s Spirit, arrogant and presumptuous blasphemy of God’s Church, and a radical and psychopathic obsession with the supernatural, with the materialistic and lavish life, and with hearing from God outside His word in dreams, visions, and a absurd fascination with and attraction to the miraculous, such as healings and miracles. How many times do faith healers have to be debunked before the galactically naive will stop throwing money at them and smarten up? The Pentecostal-Charismatic movement enable men like I mention above and promulgate the errors, abuses, heresies, and blasphemies they bring with them. If it were not for the millions of people buying into the prosperity gospel, it would have died long ago. Apply that principle to every abuse and blasphemy that exists among the highly visible personalities of the movement and it is easy to see that defenders like you have nowhere to run. There is no defense for it. There is an unusually high correlation between the majority of those “operating in the gifts” with these errors, abuses, heresies, and blasphemies. So, if you boys are going to claim that the names I mentioned are examples of abuses, then you need to provide some criteria for what are abuses and what is the Holy Spirit working. Then perhaps we can discuss your criteria. For now, your only defense is to cry abuses and to say not all of us believe this. Why not tell us how you determine what is an abuse and what is not. For instance, if causative faith is truly biblical, then at what point does it become abusive to claim that it will heal the sick, work miracles, and create financial blessings? Where is that line? That would very appreciated by us cessationists. At least I would appreciate it.

          • BrendtWayneWaters

            The point is, Ed, that you already made the point that MacArthur hasn’t condemned every single Charismatic to irrevocable hell. I can only assume that this means that you are OK with the fact that he has claimed divinity regarding SOME, then. If you don’t understand how that is wrong, I can’t help you.

            I’ll not respond to the rest — MacArthur’s heresy (as yet, unaddressed) is enough of an issue without getting into secondary stuff.

          • Ed Dingess

            It is unethical to say that someone claimed divinity when they have done no such thing. It is called lying. It is a violation of the Christian ethic to misrepresent another’s position. Saying that JM is guilty of heresy is not proof of such and it is exaggerated nonsense. This is the standard reply coming from most of those in the PC movement. We should all be jealous for the credibility of Christ and His Church. When wolves make Christianity to look like we are brainless with their slain in the spirit, their dancing in the spirit, their false healings and fake miracles, their filthy lucre, their unintelligible pseudo-tongues, etc., someone must step up and defend God. None of this nonsense reflects God’s glory, power, or beauty. We cannot sit back and allow people to think THIS is what Christ was all about. Thank you John MacArthur for rallying the Church to such a noble and worthy, though very unpopular, cause! We salute your courage.

          • BrendtWayneWaters

            Your strong feelings regarding how Christianity “looks” to others are very telling, considering the Scriptural passages that speak of the blindness of the lost and how God’s ways (including Christianity) LOOK like utter foolishness to the unsaved person.

            I’ll not even bother to address the contention that “someone must … defend God.” We apparently serve different G/gods (mine can handle Himself quite well, thank you, and doesn’t need me for squat — some dude in Athens said that a couple thousand years ago). Given that great chasm between us, it’s obvious that the disconnect is too great for meaningful dialogue on that topic.

            But what I find utterly fascinating is that this exchange goes on for a week before you address its most important part — my charge of divinity claims by MacArthur. I have clearly laid out the parameters of this in previous comments (that you allegedly read, since you responded to them). I’ll not repeat them here.

            Actually, there *is* one other way that I’d drop the charge. I don’t know his heart (seeing as how I’m not God), but I guess it’s possible that he wasn’t saying that he *is* God, but was merely saying, “I will be LIKE the Most High.” But, of course, the last guy to say that didn’t fare too well.

          • Je Fa

            JM is very tough but he is correct. The “gifts” charismatics claim to receive were dead, or dying, before the OT had reached completion. Those who read/study/ and know The Word know that divine revelation is done. God is unchanging and has given us His word. He will not reveal any new Truths.

            JM needing to step down is ridiculous. Perhaps Moses, John the Baptist, and John should have stepped down as well. They did not put up with much either.

          • Brokenit

            What has the gifts of the Spirit got to do with new Truths. Are you an infant ? Jesus said wait, and you will receive power, not new truths. Amazing how carnal man manages to twist the Scriptures and say what the Scriptures are not saying !

          • Allan Hutton

            Thank God for Grace. Lets not be on our soap box condemning J Mac for his position, Dr Michael Brown is right let not create another division, we are brothers in Christ, We all have some heresy in us. We must all support our leader in the church to condemn heretics like Benny Hinn, Joel Osteen and many others to warn and steward the body. J Mac overshot the mark, maybe to many of us have done even worst by not saying anything.

          • BrendtWayneWaters

            Allan, While I agree with Dr Brown that one should not create division, it is laughable to think that anything could be said or done that would exacerbate the division that J-Mac has caused, nay, delineated.

            Please show me where in Scripture that we are commanded to “support our leader[s]” when they commit heresy. And if you somehow disagree that J-Mac committed heresy, please understand that there is no question whatsoever that he specifically violated Jesus’ explicit command: http://csaproductions.com/blog/?p=3231

            Also please stop with the irrelevant citing of names like Hinn and Osteen. J-Mac’s analysis goes light-years beyond such people.

            He “overshot the mark”? Really? So we are to applaud him for using a nuclear warhead to kill that fly, and ignore the 500,000,000 people that were collateral damage?

          • Allan Hutton

            Thanks for your comment and agree with a number of your points. I was obviously not clear but I did not say we should “support our leader[s]” when they commit heresy” I said we should support leaders that stand against heresy. There has been to much silence over a number of obvious and condemnable heretics that work under a Christian banner from Mormons to word of faith movements. The leaders that stand up and call these groups for what they are, we should support them. So let me make it clear I was not saying you should support J Mac over the strange fire conference comments but you may support him for condeming for example Mr Dollar.

            I appreciate the link I will read over it again but it’s probably not in the same context and J Mac conference that Jesus was talking. Firstly I Would let a Mormon know he has it wrong, he is not a Christian. I would tell a Prosperity Gospel believer they are not a Christian. I would tell a Roman Catholic they are not a Christian because these are core heresies. this is not pulling the weeds this is seperating the chaff from the wheat. Paul did the same in most of his writings , we are called to test everything and to hold onto our faith that it is not our works but God’s wonderful gift of grace that God lavished on us so undeservedly.

            On your final point you said numbers are not imoortabt. I would agree condeming one person unjustly is deplorable and ungodly. The point here is he was simply wrong to group all spiritual expressions in the same group. All “spirit filled” expressions are not from God. Many are false, many lies, many just emotions but this does not mean all are lies. Even Jesus was accused of working with the devil for his miracles. Sometimes our cultural and social expectations cause us to fear the work of God because he does not allow us to continue in our sin where we think we can box God in and say this is his limitations.

            Finally walk carfully that you don’t do the same thing J Mac did and condemn where you have not first forgiven. Jesus judges righteously because he forgave us first.

            Peace and God bless.
            P.s. if any of that is not clear my appologies but I’m writing on a small screen and predictive text.

          • BrendtWayneWaters

            I, by no means, misinterpreted your comment. I did not think that you were *explicitly* saying that we should support someone when they commit heresy. But in implying that we should support J-Mac simply because his motives were allegedly good in allegedly attempting to point out alleged heresy, you were *implicitly* saying that we should support someone when they commit heresy — because as sure as God made little green apples, J-Mac committed heresy.

            As I stated in my last comment, the names and groups that you cite are a drop in the bucket compared to the millions that J-Mac threw under the bus. His comments have put him so far afield, that I cannot, in good conscience, “support” him on anything, even if I completely agree with him on something. He has basically become, as Twain put it, the stopped clock that’s right twice a day.

            I would encourage you to at least re-read the Matthew passage that I cited in that link before you classify it as inapplicable. Given the very explicit “decoding” that Jesus gave, I am really at a loss as to how you can conclude anything except that Strange Fire is *exactly* what Jesus was talking about.

            As to your warning not to “do the same thing J Mac did and condemn where you have not first forgiven”, I would reference Paul’s attitudes. If you remove the over-sanitation that the KJV language puts in our way, you find that he wanted those who preach another gospel to go to hell, and for the Judaizers to castrate themselves. My accusations of heresy pale in comparison.

          • Jaymer Divinagracia

            amen!

          • Rev.Cary Kent

            Im of Cephas, Im of Paul. Or we not forgetting Christ. Experiences are subjective. The New Birth is a Miracle. Were in the Book of Acts the History of the Early church is there a the end at. Also, I’ve been healed of bad heart at 25, healed of cancer tumor of right kidney, seen a Dad delivered without medicine from an insane asylum in Florida, they made a movie off of it; Tell all my baptist friends, Methodist, etc. and Doctors have they ever seen a Miracle after someone prayed. If you don’t believed it you don’t get it. Let the Wheat grow with the Tares..I think Christ said the Angels would do the separating not a conferemce that will have no effect on the above. Have we arrived…some in arrogance are puffed up because of there knowledge. Should we start a Christian war. Why didn]t start a long time ago. to late…to late…to late….

          • Je Fa

            JM is very tough but he is correct. The “gifts” charismatics claim to receive were dead, or dying, before the OT had reached completion. Those who read/study/ and know The Word know that divine revelation is done. God is unchanging and has given us His word. He will not reveal any new Truths.

            JM needing to step down is ridiculous. Perhaps Moses, John the Baptist, and John should have stepped down as well. They did not put up with much either..

          • Brokenit

            More straw man arguments. Dishonest !

          • Jaymer Divinagracia

            hes rigth

          • Rev.Cary Kent

            Cary Kent,
            Baptised in the Southern Baptist Church. Attending methodist, baptist, episcopal, about all fundamental, and charsmatic, and pentecostal. At 68yrs. I think were throwing out the baby with the bathwater. To ask a Baptist, Methodist, or any major charismatic church’s does God Heal and still do miracles today, is a contridiction to the Bible People, ages of saints personal experience. When people that didn’t attend the confenrence. They arrive at different conclusions and may defeat or cause confusion. Don’t preach against a church or movement, preach the Gospel…if people are accursed, take heed lest you be the accursed one. He said he would lead into all truth. I doubt that anyone has arrived. But think God the The Church is without spot or wrinkle. You can’t do anything against the truth but for it Paul the apostle said. The conference is from the Present Hero of the Truth so to speak. It will pass.

          • Ed Dingess

            Why? Because you disagree with him?

          • Ed Dingess

            You are assuming you wildly exaggerated emotion nonsense is really the Holy Spirit and that you unintelligible broken syllables really is biblical tongues…both of which are false.

          • Ed Dingess

            Okay….now we are getting exactly what I would expect from Charismatics. The call for a man of God like John MacArthur to step down.

        • Ed Dingess

          What a silly remark. Just plain silly.

      • Peter Kirk

        Understood, Adrian. That’s why I started with “If anyone”. I don’t say that he is doing this, but I do think people should consider whether they are before they say such things about what many claim that the Holy Spirit is doing.

  • Mark Byron

    MacArthur has a blind spot in this area. He’s been that way for a long time; I recall an exchange of letters my charismatic Dad had with him a couple of decades ago over this issue, and he had the same general stance then. Thus, any farewells were done a generation ago, unlike the relatively recent heterodoxies of Rob Bell.

  • bereansearch

    I believe it is easy to be misrepresented when you have said volumes on a particular subject and a person takes some soundbites for a blog. Dr. MacArthur made it clear that this conference was to point out “the abuses within the Charismatic movement.” His desire to do so stemmed from the silence of leaders within the Charismatic movement in speaking out against the TBN types that pervert God’s word. His point is that they should be the ones speaking out the loudest against false teachers and false doctrines within their movement. He even made a video to encourage Charismatic pastors regarding this series, calling them his brothers in Christ. Dr. MacArthur has shared pulpit venues with Charismatics such as C. J. Mahaney and Matt Chandler and has even had endorsements from some on his books. Pastor MacArthur may disagree doctrinally with Charismatics on some gift issues, but he has not, to date, disassociated himself with all those within this movement. As far as binding up Satan, Dr. MacArthur’s point is that the passage on binding relates to church discipline, as the context displays. I think we would all agree that there is no intrinsic power in man but it is only the power of God that can limit Satanic power.

    • http://adrianwarnock.com/ Adrian Warnock

      I will be delighted to make an addendum to this post if he issues a clarification of his comments.

      To my reading and listening tho it is “the movement” that is referred to as blasphemers. I’d love to be wrong on this.

      • nick

        I find it funny how wrong your article could be… I agree with bereanearch… for if you have ever spent time listening to Macarthurs sermon or read his book, he speaks multitudes about his brothers in Christ (who claim to be charasmatic)… he even allows groups such as Sovereign Grace (who is charamatic) to play at his church. You attack a man completely out of context. Read the inscriptions about what This confrence is all about… Then you understand that when he speaks about the charasmatic movement he is speaking about thing such as TBN, Vineyard, Jesus Culture, IHop etc. (the people who claim to be apostles and prophets of today —which by their definition, if you have ever read any of their books, they describe themselves as the true charasmatics and most likely you as a ceasationist because you probably don’t believe Apostles exist today)…

        • http://adrianwarnock.com/ Adrian Warnock

          Check out the updated quote about

          • Allan Hutton

            Adrain thanks for your review and comments they have been very helpful in exploring a very challenged topic. This seems like the case that Satan is welding confusion in the church by confusing terminology, as he did in the garden. This is causing division, just as in the garden. I’m with you that we need to be looking at what scripture says, whether we like it or not. I’m not a charismatic sensationalist nor a Presbyterian cessationist, I sit somewhere in-between trusting that my Father is good not looking to lead me astray. It seems these terms are causing such confusion between believes. It would seem like we are not trying to understand each other just express our anxiety toward those outliers, for example at the Strange fire conference there where many good things said. However there seems to be a number of statistics that refer to TBN, God TV, iHop and other groups that have a number of dubious religious dogmas that they would find hard to defend with sound biblical exegesis. However should all people that believe in the “manifestation” of the spirit be placed in the same group. Do we not find the same thing in politics when Christians are thrown into the same group as “Other faiths”. What similarities are there between these generalised groups of believers. A Muslim is not a Christian. So should we discard all faiths because a larger group is false. Its a ridiculous conclusion to stand on. I cant limit the working of God in our age just because I have not experiences mega miraculous events. We are commissioned to test everything before scripture, not lazily look for others to defend our comfort zone. I think that there is a expression of the spirit that John MacAuthor would support, scriptural interpretation “prophetically” bring the word of God to people. Is it not prophetic to encourage the body with recited scripture, is it not a gift when that person brings a word that challenges or encourages the body. Do elders not pray for healing faithfully submitting themselves to the will of God that He is good and our desire may not fulfil Gods ambitions. I think the event Strange fire caused many to be so exasperated with the false spiritual expressions, focused mainly at the word of faith community, and prosperity gospel that it has decided to through the Spirit out with the bath water. Surely we should take the same stand and say we are the same body in Christ but those outliers are actually preaching another gospel. These outliers may claim that there are Apostles like “Paul” with his authority but do reformed Christian’s commonly believe this, unlikely. Does any reformed Christian really think that Benny and TBN crowd are part of the Body,I hope not. John was right to condemn their actions but lets not discard the Spirit just as the Galatians wanted to discard the grace of Christ for reformed Jewish law.

        • Mark Simpson

          I hear a lot of people here making strong accusations against the church of Jesus Christ. I am saddened by the loveless hearts of so many. Here, you make a accusation against some, and I don’t understand. Such as Jesus Culture. I have been led into the presence of the Lord so many times listening to their music. If you don’t like them, keep it to yourself. But don’t criticize the music they put forth as though it is satanic. I was raised Catholic, never heard about the Holy Spirit, but when I was 19 and gave my heart over to Christ, I soon afterward received the Holy Spirit and had no idea what was happening. To all who want to refuse that the offices and the gifts tath were present in the early church are no longer in effect in the church, tell me, by what power do you fight against the forces of hell when they attack you. Oh, and don’t say I give it to Jesus. Wrong answer. Before Jesus left, he said I am going away, but I will send the helper to you, and when He has come, the works that I have done, you also will do. And as Peter said, for you and for all generations to come is this Holy Spirit you see happening here before you today going to happen. Did we become so much like Christ without the Holy Spirit’s power working through us so He left us alone. I look around, and I see we have not become so much like Him at all, but as we learn to die to ourselves, and allow Christ, (which is the anointing of God, hence, the HS) to live in us. It is time we heed the voice of Paul, and learn from His writings to us in the scriptures, when he says that all I do, I only do because of Christ that lives in me. We need to stop seeing what all we can do for God, but allow God to do in and through us what He so desires. And if that is speaking in tongues, then speak it until the HS gives you the stop. If it is prophesying then prophecy what the HS gives you to say. If you are called to be an apostle, then go forth and build plant new churches. And when you are busy doing only what the HS is doing in and through you, you won’t have the time to be sitting so idle and cursing so many of those that are out there, bringing forth what they feel God is leading then to bring. There being many false teachers is not a new thing, for even Paul spoke of those that were doing the same thing in the church in His day. But, it is God’s Church, and Jesus is the head, Let Him be the one that will cut from it that which is not of Him, and just go about doing what He wants to do through you. Once we do that, then the church will grow world-wide, and the name of Jesus will be glorified.

          • Adam Cummings

            Mark… I’m confused… so, the Lord will be glorified when there is unity and everyone agrees with you? I don’t mind people taking different views (though I think yours are misleading). But, you’ve just spent a whole post correcting other Christians, and then you end it by saying to stop going around correcting other Christians.

            You also accuse people of “loveless hearts” because of things like the Jesus Culture. I can tell you that I’m a musician. I love songs by groups put out by Hillsong, but I’m slowly having to move away from that (Cornerstone moves my heart every time I hear it). Here’s the deal. Jesus Culture stems from Bill Johnson’s “fire tunnel” church. That’s where they came from. We have to be Bereans and warn others when there is a trap set. And many of these groups will devour new Christians by drawing them in with music first.

            I’ve always thought it a little interesting that charismatics love to talk about tongues and the like. Yet, with all of our technology and with all of our connectedness today, there isn’t one video, or something, to show how exactly “tongues” are done biblically today.

            John MacArthur lovingly addressed this issue, as those know who have actually listened to any of the conference. He expressed love for those within the movement, such as Wayne Grudem, and Piper. He was hounded by Driscoll and, like the godly man that he is, we saw no immature come back or poking back, something Driscoll and his camp would have done in a heart beat. He has had misrepresentations of his conference by countless charismatics (except for one Pentecostal pastor on a blog, who caught a lot of flack for merely saying he was saddened by the conference because MacArthur actually said a lot of true things about his movement). Yet, still, we have blogs that, instead of thinking through the issues in a loving and biblical way, will hound the person of MacArthur, who only cares about Scripture being honored.

            That’s why I love that man. You can hound him to eternity. And, as long as he has preached what he believes God’s Word says, he doesn’t care.

            I hope some people, despite all my failings, will be able to say that about me, at least in some small way, some day when I’m gone.

          • gateway2

            So well said!

      • Ruth

        ‘Charismatics’ do not preach the full, pure Truth. They are part of the huge ‘external’ church, not the ‘invisible’ church (the elect)…..and the elect can ‘see’ it quite clearly.

        • Portra777

          Say more about this.

          • Ruth

            What do you wish to know Portra777

          • Portra777

            Would you please support your comment with scripture?

          • Ruth

            Hello Portra777. Here are just some of the Charismatic teaching I’ll touch upon and scriptures that show their dangerous errors.

            1. Speaking in tongues: their satanic babble which is chaotic in some of their meetings.

            For God is not the author of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints. (1 Cor 14:33)

            ‘Tongues’ in the Bible were languages, NOTunintelligible gibberish:

            “Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak IN HIS OWN LANGUAGE. And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans? And how hear we every man IN OUR OWN TONGUE, WHEREIN WE WERE BORN? Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia, Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes, Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak IN OUR TONGUES the wonderful works of God” (Acts 2:6-11).

            Charismatics (and others) say that ‘Tongues’ is an evidence. Yes it is, but an evidence that they are in dangerous error/unbelief:

            “Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men. In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord. WHEREFORE TONGUES ARE FOR A SIGN, NOT TO THEM THAT BELIEVE, BUT TO THEM THAT BELIEVE NOT: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe” (1 Cor.14:20-22).

            The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. (2 Thessalonians 2:9, 10)

            Tongues (LANGUAGE) are finished with:

            “Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away” (1 Cor.13:8-10).

            We must beware of the ‘spirit’ we’re believing in:

            For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no
            great thing if HIS MINISTERS also be transformed as the ministers of
            righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works. (2 Corinthians 11:13-15)

            Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because MANY false prophets are gone out into the world. (1 John 4:1)

            2. Slain in the Spirit or to use other terms….. “falling under the Spirit’s
            power”, “falling before the Lord”, “slain under the power”, “carpet time”, “drunk in the Spirit”, or “resting in the Spirit” etc. This writhing, falling down, falling backwards/forwards, moaning, screeching, bouncing up and down on the floor, demonic ‘holy laughter’ etc IS NOT BIBLICAL AND NOT FROM THE HOLY SPIRIT BUT FROM SATANIC SPIRITS. Many Charismatics believe this phenomenon brings both physical and emotional healing and/or an anointing by the Spirit……. ‘But I am afraid that, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, your minds will be led astray from the SIMPLICITY AND PURITY OF DEVOTION TO CHRIST.’ 2 Corinthians 11:3. Beware….. ‘Now the Spirit speaketh EXPRESSLY, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, GIVING HEED to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; ’ 1 Timothy 4:1,2.

            But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, SELF-CONTROL. Against such there is no law. (Galations 5:22, 23)

            I will also repeat: ‘For GOD IS NOT THE AUTHOR OF CONFUSION but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints’. (1 Cor 14:33)

            3. Wealth: Notice how all these ‘ministers’ are so wealthy…..and want you to buy, buy and buy!! They have week-long ‘telethons’ where they want more and more and more of your money. They ‘personally’ invite you to take their cruises. look at all the things, ‘events’, partnerships they use to extort even more money out of you. They’re always wanting more money; are never satisfied or content with what they have. It is all…..THEY are all WORLDLY, CARNAL….OF THE FLESH…NOT of the Spirit.

            And through covetousness shall they with FEIGNED WORDS make merchandise of you: WHOSE JUDGEMENT now of a long time LINGERETH NOT, and THEIR DAMNATION slumbereth not. (2 Peter 2:3)

            Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is NOT in him. For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, IS NOT OF THE FATHER, BUT IS OF THE WORLD. (John 2:15,16)

            For the love of money is a root of all sorts of evil, and some BY LONGING FOR IT HAVE WONDERED AWAY FROM THE FAITH and pierced themselves with many griefs. (1Timothy 6:10)

            No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to one and despise the other. YOU CANNOT SERVE GOD AND MAMMON. (Matthew 6:24)

            And the worries of the world, and the deceitfulness of riches, and the LUST OF OTHER THINGS ENTERING IN and CHOKE THE WORD, and it becomes unfruitful. (Mark 4:19)

            Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me. But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions. (Matthew 19:21-22)

            Fear not, LITTLE flock; for it is your Father’s good pleasure to give you the kingdom. Sell that ye have, and give alms; provide yourselves bags which wax not old, a treasure in the heavens that faileth not, where no thief approacheth, neither moth corrupteth. FOR WHERE YOUR TREASURE IS, THERE WILL YOUR HEART BE ALSO. (Luke
            12:32-34)

            4. Prophecy:

            For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall ADD UNTO THESE THINGS, GOD SHALL ADD UNTO HIM THE PLAGUES THAT ARE WRITTEN IN THIS BOOK: And if any man shall TAKE AWAY from the words of the book of this prophecy, GOD SHALL TAKE AWAY HIS PART OUT OF THE BOOK OF LIFE, AND out of the holy city, and from the things which
            are written in this book. (Revelation 22:18, 19)

            Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. MANY will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And THEN WILL I PROFESS TO THEM, I NEVER KNEW YOU: DEPART FROM ME, YE THAT WORK INIQUITY. (Matthew 7:21-23)

            Then the LORD said unto me, The PROPHETS PROPHESY LIES IN MY NAME: I SENT THEM NOT, NEITHER HAVE I COMMANDED THEM, NEITHER SPAKE UNTO THEM: they prophesy unto you
            a FALSE vision and divination, and a thing of nought, and the deceit of their heart. (Jeremiah 14:14)

            5. Women Preachers:

            Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness. I DO NOT PERMIT A WOMAN TO TEACH OR TO EXERCISE AUTHROITY OVER A MAN; RATHER SHE IS TO REMAIN QUIET. For Adam
            was formed first, then Eve; and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor. (1 Tim 2:11-14)

            Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is NOT PERMITTED unto them to speak; but they are COMMANDED to be under obedience as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church. (1 Corinthians 14:34)

            But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God. (1 Corinthians 11:3)

            And you, O desolate one, what do you mean that you dress in scarlet, that you adorn yourself with ornaments of gold, that you enlarge your eyes with paint? In vain you beautify yourself. Your lovers despise you; they seek your life. (Jeremiah 4:30)

            6. Casting out demons:

            Then some of the itinerant Jewish exorcists TOOK IT UPON THEMSELVES to call the name of the Lord Jesus over those who had evil spirits, saying, “We exorcise you by the Jesus whom Paul preaches.” Also there were seven sons of Sceva, a Jewish chief priest, who did so. And THE EVIL SPIRIT ANSWERED and said, “Jesus I know, and Paul I know; BUT WHO ARE YOU?” (Acts 19:13-15)

            MANY will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And THEN WILL I PROFESS UNTO THEM, I NEVER KNEW YOU: DEPART FROM ME, YE THAT WORK INIQUITY. (Matthew 7: 21-23)

            About the ‘External Church’ and the ‘invisible’ (elect) church:

            For MANY are called, but FEW are chosen. (Matthew 22:14) (The ‘called’ is the external church and the invisible church all together; the ‘chosen’ are only the elect, the ‘invisible’ church ‘hidden’ within that large group).

            Enter ye in at the strait gate: for WIDE is the gate, and BROAD is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and MANY there be which go in thereat: Because STRAIT is the gate, and NARROW is the way, which leadeth unto life, and FEW there be that find it. (Matthew
            7:13-14)

            And guess what immediately follows:

            Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. YE SHALL KNOW THEM BY THEIR FRUITS. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A GOOD TREE CANNOT BRING FORTH EVIL FRUIT, NEITHER CAN A CORRUPT TREE BRING FORTH GOOD FRUIT. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. (Matthew 7:15-20)

            Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, THE LORD KNOWETH THEM THAT ARE HIS. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, BUT ALSO OF WOOD AND OF EARTH; AND SOME TO HONOUR, AND SOME TO
            DISHONOUR. (2 Timothy 2: 19, 20)

            They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: BUT THEY WENT OUT, THAT THEY MIGHT BE MADE MANIFEST THAT THEY WERE NOT ALL OF US. But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things. (1 John 2:19, 20)

            Also this article (found here
            http://www.mountainretreatorg.net/faq/The_Book_Of_Life.shtml) is a very good one to help someone understand more easily about the visible and invisible church of God.

            I can go on and on with many more scriptures….but I’ll leave that for you to do yourself.

            Lastly Portra777:

            •”PROVE ALL THINGS; HOLD FAST THAT WHICH IS GOOD.” 1st Thessalonians 5:21

            God’s Word is spiritual NOT carnal!! These ‘preachers’ are carnal
            Christians….which is proven by their actions and by their dilution and wresting of the scriptures. ‘Test the spirits’ Portra777. (Just as you have done with me here in your reply, which was: Would you please SUPPORT YOUR COMMENT WITH SCRIPTURE). In anything I’ve written here, any articles/books you read, or hear people speak: don’t believe ME, don’t believe THEM…..believe ONLY our Lord Jesus Christ and His Word; especially in these very dangerous end times where ‘lying and seducing spirits and doctrines of demons’ ABOUND. Ultimately Portra777, if you’re really seeking the truth…..GOD’S TRUTH….NOT MANS; you go to HIM and His Word, and pray for Him to show you His Truth!! And if His Spirit is truly in you…HE will indeed ‘teach you all things’. Be like the Bereans; search the scriptures!! But a word of kind advice. I don’t know which Bible version you use but
            ALWAYS check the scriptures from other new versions against the King James Bible. I’ve been shown, and now notice myself, that scriptures are being changed; and usually changed in favour of
            ‘man’ and NOT God. They are changing HIS Word!!! Remember that scripture I included here: Revelation 22:18, 19. This is very dangerous indeed. Don’t ever forget; everything must always come back to what GOD says, not what MAN WANTS God to say.

            I pray my dearly loved Holy Father draws your heart to His oh so precious Son; the great Lord Jesus Christ..the ‘Altogether lovely One’. Amen….and Amen.

          • Portra777

            It seems to me that your grievance is not against the scriptures, which clearly outline the importance of the spiritual gifts in 1 Cor. 12, 13 and 14, but against the abuses seen within the Charismatic/Pentecostal movements. Just remember that dichotomous thinking is a very dangerous thing. Not all Charismatics/Pentecostals are blaspheming the Holy Spirit, just as not all non-Charismatic evangelicals are blaspheming the Holy Spirit. Not all Charismatics/Pentecostals are speaking gibberish. Not all Charismatic/Pentecostals are going to hell. Not all Charismatic/Pentecostals agree with the more extreme of their movements. It’s important to hold a balanced view, and always make sure that the spirit with which you are speaking is love, and not hatred. Do not be so quick to judge, condemn or destroy your brothers and sisters.

            I would like to ask you another question. Is there any instance where an appropriate expression of the spiritual gifts would be acceptable? If the answer is yes, then your grievance is not with the “gifts of the Spirit,” but with those who misuse them. Blessings to you.

          • Ruth

            Your reply speaks volumes. There is so much more there in it than you even realise. You aren’t even aware of what you’ve shown of yourself.

            Sadly……VERY sadly, it seems I got things very wrong. I thought, just for a tiny moment there, that here could be, MAYBE one of the Lord’s TRUE people reaching out from the wilderness, but alas, I was wrong. I need to remember, to NEVER forget that the Lord’s flock is but a little one (as HE says), and the external church is massive (as HE also says). It is very rare indeed to ‘find’ one of His; which is understandable considering His are but FEW. My mistake.
            And please, do not call them MY brothers and sisters. They are not, in any way, shape or form MY ‘brothers’ and ‘sisters’ IN CHRIST!!!

            I am no longer interested in you; now I that I know where your heart lays.
            As my beloved Lord Jesus Christ said to warn His people (one of the MANY warnings):

            Matthew 7:6
            Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, LEST THEY TRAMPLE THEM UNDER THEIR FEET, AND TURN AGAIN AND REND YOU.

            Goodbye Portra777. I sincerely hope, that one day the Lord shall give you eyes to see and ears to hear; and a heart that will love HIM and HIS truth only; if it is HIS will!!

          • Portra777

            Ruth, I will pray for you. God bless you.

          • Ruth

            I apologise if my words were harsh Portra. May God bless you also.

  • bereansearch
  • Joey Elliott

    Adrian,

    This is very interesting. I wonder, what do you make of Joni Eareckson Tada as a speaker at this conference?

    I am starting to know of and respect more and more pastors and authors who identify themselves as both reformed and charismatic. I would personally not identify myself as either charismatic or cessationalist (that is possible isn’t it?). But I also greatly respect MacArthur, Sproul, Conrad Mbewe, Steve Lawson, and Tada who are speakers at this conference. So I’m torn and will follow closely. Thanks for posting.

    • http://adrianwarnock.com/ Adrian Warnock

      If any of my readers know any of the other speakers perhaps they could ask them to comment on these latest remarks. I’m concerned that this seems to be trying to rehash the battles of the 1960s and 1970s

  • Bob Cleveland

    If someone flatly denies a particular gift, when in fact that gift was sovereignly bestowed by the Holy Spirit, would not that denial constitute the attribution of that (allegedly false) gift to the satan? As he is the author of lies, and of confusion?

    Would not then Dr. MacArthur be guilty of the blasphemy of which he is accusing others?

    It’s been said, and I believe it here, that some people believe “If it hasn’t happened to me, it doesn’t happen”. And that’s just plain false.

  • Daniel Arguelles

    When I think of the millions in Africa and other very poor places who are exposed to the prosperity “gospel” instead of the true Gospel it breaks my heart. The charismatic movement has done much damage, and that is why I left it.

    • http://adrianwarnock.com/ Adrian Warnock

      Its wrong to imply that the charismatic movement and the prosperity movement are one and the same. Thats like saying that all presbyterians are part of the PCA

      • Philip

        Aren’t you reinforcing MacArthur’s point with this statement? If charismatic Christians would speak out against the abuses of the Word of Faith/Prosperity movements you would not be lumped together. But those heretical movements sprang out of the charismatic movement and most charismatics will not speak out against their false theology. MacArthur has stated repeatedly that he knows that are faithful Christians in charismatic churches. What he’s calling for is the faithful to rise up and speak out against the abuses and false doctrine.

        We can disagree about whether what is called speaking in tongues today is the same thing that was taking place in the Bible. We can have some disagreements on whether or not prophecy is still ongoing. We cannot disagree and still embrace as Christians the alterations to the gospel taking place in the extreme charismatic movements such as Word of Faith and Prosperity teach.

        It is the silence of faithful charismatics as the charlatans and conmen use their same terminology that results in all charismatics being lumped together. Charismatics above all groups should speak out against the unBiblical teaching and behavior taking place in some camps today because it is your movement that is being disgraced by the frauds.

        • Dan Edelen

          As a blogger who has blogged against charismania repeatedly, called out charismatics who have terrible doctrine, and done just about everything I can do as some small voice amid all the shouting, I can say with no hesitation that most of the charismatic bloggers I know are CONSTANTLY decrying charismania.

          In short, this silence you speak of does not exist.

          Given that there are many charismatics who actively oppose error within charismatic ranks, how is it that those who are not charismatics are not siding with us but are still pitting themselves against us? If it were truly just about dealing with charismaniacs, why do I still see disparaging remarks about those of us who are decrying error?

          No, it seems to me that all charismatics, whether they are clearly out of control or clearly smart, solid people, are all being lumped together. While the rhetoric is toward correcting charismaniacs, I don’t get the feeling that the “correction” is being limited to them alone.

          I would like to be wrong on that, but I don’t think I am. The Strange Fire conference is not making that distinction evident enough, and I think that’s clearly intentional.

          • Ed Dingess

            How many vile doctrines can one movement produce before people, good people write it off? The healing revivals, the prosperity gospel, the laughing revival, the new-age speak it into existence garbage. Come on. You talk like the errors are isolated to small fringe elements. They are NOT. All you have to do is read the Doctrinal Statements of the oldest and largest Pentecostal denominations in the world to see the error. Church of God, Cleve. and Assemblies of God.

          • docmacdvet

            Oh c’mon Ed you sound as though John McArthur is the solid infallible basis of Evangelical Christian Orthodoxy? It should be scripture that will refute a person’s claim or any denomination. I am decidedly charismatic and was genuinely healed from an Intra-craniaL HEMORRHAGE and severe headaches you have never experienced!!! Why dont you read scriptures and find scriptural support for Rev. McArthur’s cessationist views. Also, give me just one verse that supports his cessationist stand.

          • Ed Dingess

            Cessationists do not deny that God still heals when it is His will to do so. What we deny is that there are healers running around like Benny Hinn and Ken Copeland. I am curious is a doctor diagnosed you of an intra-cranial hemorrhage or if that is what your faith claimed that you had and then pretended to heal you. Why would a doctor make such a diagnosis and not immediately operate? That would require a CT scan and would also be classified as a medical emergency. The treatment is immediate surgery. It is that serious.

        • http://www.facebook.com/people/Bro-Juntunen/100001252637004 Bro Juntunen

          There are those who are speaking out regularly against such foolishness as what you see on TBN and all the other idiocy… but maybe you are not listening because it does not pertain to you. MacArthur is placing himself in the position of an apostle who would have the authority to rebuke the whole church when he is only one pastor of a distant congregation far away on the west coast of the United States of America, he is a nothing.

          • Ed Dingess

            MacArthur is one of the most humble men you could ever meet. Obviously you do not know him. Any elder has the same authority to speak out in rebuke of any error he sees. Your comments are very confusing.

          • Brian Juntunen

            If I am confusing you, it is because you have bought into something that clouds your ability to reason.

          • Ed Dingess

            No confusion here. Just amusement.

      • Ed Dingess

        How small your LARGE numbers would be if you took out the number of Charismatics who deny the prosperity gospel. They would shrink to near non-existence.

  • Dianna Wood

    MacArthur preached a sermon at his church entitled, “The Modern Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit” in October 2011. You can read the entire transcript on his website here:

    http://www.gty.org/resources/sermons/90-415/the-modern-blasphemy-of-the-holy-spirit#.TqiziGD39D4

    In it he states” The Charismatic Movement has stolen the Holy Spirit and created a golden calf and they’re dancing around the golden calf as if it were the Holy Spirit. It is a false form of the Holy Spirit. They’ve exploited the Holy Spirit and demanded to be able to do that in an uncriticized manner. Nobody can say anything against them. That’s divisive, unloving, cantankerous. That’s why Benny Hinn said about me, “If I had my way, I’d take my Holy Ghost Machine Gun and blow his brains out. You’re not allowed to question anything they say about the Holy Spirit. They have co-opted the Holy Spirit and demanded to do that without being criticized, without being confronted, and they go on with their exploitation and so prove testimony concerning the Holy Spirit as pushed and repressed, underground because it’s going to be divisive, they’re not going to like it. It will offend somebody.”

    Please keep in mind that MacArthur tends to be somewhat careless with words. If you ask him directly, “Do you mean ALL Charismatics” he would undoubtly say, “No, no, no! I just mean the false teachers”.

    • http://adrianwarnock.com/ Adrian Warnock

      Thanks I’ve added this quote and a bit more from it to the post.

  • Maurice

    I agree 100% with Mr. MacArthur. There are so many errors in the Pentecostal and Charismatic theology that it borders on heresy and leads untold thousands astray. I was a Pentecostal for four years and during those years I was subjected to all kinds of things that had no Scripture basis. That being said, there are many in this movement that have a heart for God and want the Truth of God but are hindered by bad theology and unsound doctrine.

    • http://adrianwarnock.com/ Adrian Warnock

      The thing is that you really can’t lump all charismatics into the same pile. There are so many groups who have different styles and doctrines. A bit like evangelicalism as a whole really.

    • Brokenit

      A some cults methodically use and twist the scriptures. There are many errors from people masquerading as being the church. Bad theology and unsound doctrine is as endemic in all branches who claim to be “Christians” but are not and don’t have any gifts of the Spirit. If they had, they would have sound doctrine and actually know God.

  • John B

    MacArthur and his camp are almost impossible to talk to on this topic. They are smug, sarcastic, and resort to tactics like this. My suggestion is would be to ignore them, since they can’t seem to be able to have fellowship with other believers

    • http://adrianwarnock.com/ Adrian Warnock

      Every now and them i try to reach out to them in Christian love but it feels ever more futile so those attempts are less and less frequent.

      • Margot Murray

        Adrian – I spent 22 years in a Pentecostal church that condoned all sorts of excesses that I willingly participated in. This same church movement and its leader continues to endorse the likes of Joel Osteen and TD Jakes, at the same time sitting down like an “elder statesman” interviewing our former prime minister and putting it out all over the internet as some sort of endorsement. It was reading John Macarthur’s “Charismatic Chaos” that finally set us free, free to repent and truly understand His sovereign grace towards us. Am I charismatic anymore? No – and the passion to know and to spend eternity with Him has only deepened…..

        • manotab

          Don’t you think Rev. MacArthur will be saying the same thing against Peter and Paul if they were around today?. After all, Paul boasted he spoke in tongues more than you all and Peter healed the sick with his shadow. I don’t know about you, but I’d rather be on Paul and Peter’s side than on Rev. MacArthur’s side on matters pertaining to the Holy Spirit.

  • Dan Edelen

    Perhaps my understanding of the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is mistaken, but it seems to me that such blasphemy is to take works of the Holy Spirit and ascribe them to the Enemy. What MacArthur accuses charismatics of is taking works of the Enemy (or possibly man) and ascribing them to the Holy Spirit. He seems to be coming at this backwards.

    If anything, it seems to me this Strange Fire conference is actually dancing closer to the blasphemy issue itself than anything, as it is sourcing all contemporary charismata outside of the Holy Spirit. The conference proponents can claim only two possible sources for those expressions then, man or the Enemy.

    Perhaps we need to think of this conference’s perspective in a most startling way:

    “…having the appearance of godliness, but denying its power. Avoid such people.”
    —2 Timothy 3:5 ESV

    Who here is actually denying the power of God?

    All this said, interpreting the “blasphemy of the Holy Spirit” as an unforgivable sin that stands apart from failing to respond to the Holy Spirit and therefore rejecting Christ, poses it’s own set of problems. It becomes that exception to Christ’s saving us from ALL sins. Suddenly, there exists a sin that leads to eternal death that is distinct from the one way we know for certain leads to eternal death. We now have two means of damnation.

    The upshot then is that we must now add an asterisk on all justification and grace doctrine UNLESS this blasphemy is tied completely to the one thing we know separates us from God forever: failing to repent and come to faith in Jesus.

    I guess MacArthur could claim that charismatics have followed a different gospel anyway, so they can’t possibly have repented and come to faith in Christ; perhaps if he takes this perspective on the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, then he finds his justification for his position, but the way he is saying it doesn’t seem to support that interpretation.

    Sad.

    • http://adrianwarnock.com/ Adrian Warnock

      The sad thing here is that the natural implication of what he’s saying is that charismatics aren’t saved. Surely if that’s what he means that’s adding to the gospel.

    • Peter Kirk

      Dan, thank you for going into the detail behind what I was saying. It is those who call works of the Holy Spirit “demonic experiences” (quoting MacArthur) who are likely to be blaspheming against the Holy Spirit. Again, I am not saying that MacArthur did this. After all, he also said that some charismatic experiences are “human experiences”, which I would not dispute, and no doubt there are cases of people presenting themselves as charismatic Christians who are actually doing demonic things. But, as you say, it is words along the same lines as MacArthur’s, rather than the experiences which he criticizes, which are the genuine blasphemy.

  • http://adrianwarnock.com/ Adrian Warnock

    I bet you didn’t tell him…..!

    • Margot Murray

      @ Justin & Adrian – it would not have made any difference to John Macarthur. He has already proved he has great (ongoing to this day) fellowship over the years with Piper, Grudem, Mahaney etc. Adrian, your response to Justin? A little unkind perhaps?

      • http://adrianwarnock.com/ Adrian Warnock

        Was just teasing my good friend Justin! I’m not sure if MacArthur still has fellowship with charismatics any more. If he did you’d have thought hed have invited one to speak. Am now even more sure he is taking aim at the whole movement not just the excesses

  • http://adrianwarnock.com/ Adrian Warnock

    Someone who believes the gifts of the Holy Spirit are available today. See http://www.patheos.com/blogs/adrianwarnock/2011/12/how-charismatic-are-you-a-spectrum-of-belief-and-practice/

    • John Sharpe

      Wow, what a vigorous discussion! Personally, I think that the beginnings of the apostolic charismatic movement in the UK are ripe for a fresh scrutiny. In my view and personal experience, Bryn Jones, Gerald Coates, Terry Virgo, Bob Mumford, George Tarleton, John Noble and the rest were badly born, deeply flawed and hermeneutically challenged. They were a self authenticating group who foisted their unbiblical doctrines on others by sheer force of personality.. The litany of disasters, both corporate and personal that they actively presided over is testament enough to this, as is the present state of their charismatic downline which is now the main breeding ground for deception and heresy worldwide.

  • charlesspurgeonjr

    Before giving a “provocative comment” about what Dr. MacArthur has to say about Charismatic Chaos, did you look a bit farther than your driveway? Maybe you should also read Dr. Conrad Mbewe on the damages done by the “Charismatics” in Africa. The Charismatic Chaos is killing the Church in Africa, South America… Once people have been washed away from their money and discovered that no “spiritual unction” will ever get them rich, they reject the Gospel
    entirely. And NO I don’t think a Benny Hinn cultists are Christian. I
    guess in the “500 millions” you include the millions of Nigerians who
    every Sunday give away close to 90% of their income at some of Lagos
    mega-churches (just in case you didn’t know: one of the largest can
    accommodate up to ONE MILLION people at the same time! that’s one in 8
    inhabitants of Lagos) hoping that by receiving a “spiritual unction”
    they will be blessed, protected from diseases, get jobs, educate healthy
    children, be spared injuries etc. etc. or the millions of Americans who
    listen or watch the gibberish streamed 24/7 by TBN or the millions of
    others around the world who are gratified by a smile from Meyer, Osteen,
    Jakes and other luminaries. These new Messiahs who come to town to give
    their “good people” a paid-for share of their “teachings”. Dr.
    MacArthur isn’t speaking about the traditional pentecostal movement he
    is speaking of the fraudsters, liars, cheaters, adulterers who have made
    of God’s House a House of Prostitution. I have very much respect myself
    for Wesleyans and the Vineyard movement, but I have only contempt for
    followers of the charismatic cult leaders (you know the ones who have
    started to call MacArthur a “heretic”, a “destroyer of the Church’s
    unity” and blah blah blah, while they haven’t read one line of
    MacArthur’s books or listen to one of his sermons on the subject) and
    REALLY, really pray for their victims to see the truth about who they
    are really following and giving to. You are named Bill Gates and want to
    give a billion dollars to Jakes: I DON’T CARE. If you are a single
    mother living with less than a dollar a day in some part of Africa then
    it becomes my problem as a responsible Christian and I have to speak out
    against these haters of God’s Word who make a mockery of the Holy
    Spirit and think they can manipulate for their own benefits people who
    have no or little education.

    Jean-Christophe HENEL

    • http://adrianwarnock.com/ Adrian Warnock

      What you are describing has nothing whatsoever to do with the charismatic churches I’ve spent my entire Christian life in.

      • charlesspurgeonjr

        At least you are lucid about your shortcomings regarding what you are talking about! Thank God for that.

        • gmonzeglio@mweb.co.za

          the charismatic movement described and which exports heresies is primarily americanand joined at the hip with WOF teaching – I have been seeing it firsthand for 25 years. The english charismatic movement adrian is referring to is miniscule in proportion. I live in south africa and its influence is endemic. however the teaching that there is a subsequent baptism that must be evidenced by tongues speaking is at the root of both and the start of the whole movement over 100 years ago. all WOF money preachers are charismatic/pentecostal and mostly non-reformed if they even know or care about what that means. The sovereign grace/new frontiers movements etc are blips on the screen of what is going on globally.

      • Gregory

        So did Judas. So watch our brother.

        • Brokenit

          So the Accuser of the brethren opens his mouth and wants to be recognised as an angel of light.

  • bereansearch
  • http://theologic.us/ Joe Louthan

    As a Charismatic, I totally 100% agree with MacArthur’s statement in the excerpt under the update.

    Bravo, Johnny Mac. You’re my boy.

    • John B

      SO your the charismatic that doesn’t believe in tongues?

      • http://theologic.us/ Joe Louthan

        Do I believe in tongues/interpretation according to 1 Cor 12? Yes.

        Do I believe in “speaking in tongues” according to 1 Cor 14? Yes.

        Growing up AoG/Charismatic/Non-denom, I have seen tongues given a LOT of emphasis–too much emphasis for it being a tertiary doctrine. Lately,I have seen AoG and many other Evangelical Charismatic churches correct itself, ease up off the doctrine and present it Biblically.

        Although I believe in it, I do not speak in tongues. Go figure.

    • Brokenit

      You realise of course that pride is a terrible sin ?

      • http://theologic.us/ Joe Louthan

        Screw it, I’ll bite.

        Where is the pride?

  • manotab

    Rev. MacArthur does not know what he is talking about. His knowledge of the Person and ministry of the Holy Spirit is shallow. If Paul and Peter were here today, he will be making the same assertions against them. I think we should dismiss his views on the Holy Spirit. He does not know it all and in regard to the Holy Spirit, he needs to humble himself to be taught by the greatest teacher, the Holy Spirit.

    • Vic Christian

      manotab – that is the point. Peter and Paul were apostles, and used these as signs. There was no record of any of these in the church until very recently.

      • Rev.Cary Kent

        Wrong Vic…….how old are you and what’s recent to you…..read church history and the history before you were born. If it don’t happend in your life, doesn’t mean that in this world that jesus is the same….yesterday…..today……and forever. The gifts of the spirit has never ceased for Paul said the first Gifts that Christ gave upon his Ascention was the ministry of Pastors, prophets, teachers, evangelist……if there is no succession. How do you no that your Pastor is really sent of God. All this confuscion will cause somebody to get a good whipping from God. Young christian will be son confused that they will fall back not knowing who to believe; Just…….take a look at the CONFUSCION ALREADY ON THIS POST BOARD.

  • Dan Edelen

    I consider myself a “Welsh Revival-style charismatic” rather than someone who identifies with the Azusa branch or those of the Sovereign Grace variety. I actually came to understand the charismata through a charismatic Lutheran, and I grew up in the Lutheran Church.

    So I’m not a Calvinist or Reformed. I currently attend an independent Pentecostal church in a rural area in the U.S., but I’m not a fan of some of the excesses that have existed within that stream either.

    As a longtime blogger, I’ve been watching this eventual breakdown coming, and I’m really not surprised that charismatic Reformed/Calvinists are being thrown under a bus. And let’s be honest–that seems to be what’s happening here.

    As much as charismatic Reformed/Calvinists wanted to be aligned with the most dynamic parts of the whole Young, Restless & Reformed movement, who often look to MacArthur as one of their primary leaders, it doesn’t seem to me as if any supposed acceptance was ever real. Sites like Pyromaniacs, which often spoke most loudly for the YRR, stressed a strict cessationist viewpoint and held charismatics at arm’s length. That the former leader of that site was Phil Johnson, right-hand man to John MacArthur, accurately reflected how that majority within the YRR truly felt. I suspect the general feeling of that group is a hope that the Sovereign Grace Churches and any other “continuationist-sympathetic” Calvinists would just go away.

    With the Strange Fire conference, it seems that “go away” is now complete, with the continuationists now officially out, whether they wanted to be out or not. No one should be surprised, though; it had to come to this sooner or later.

    That’s an “outsider’s” view. Feel free to disagree.

    • Ed Dingess

      They are being returned to the place from whence they came, with their claims that God is talking to them, that God is still calling miracles workers into ministry who are regularly healing the sick and such. It is the Charismatics who claim that you have to speak in unintelligible broken syllables in order to be baptized with the Spirit. Utter nonsense. It is about time someone started calling for their rejection again.

      • docmacdvet

        Perhaps Ed you should pray that you experience the direct and immediate witness of the Holy Spirit. I am referring to the Lords promptings as you recall scriptures that you read. I don’t even speak in tongues nor do I emphasize prophecy. So what is it with this broadsweep? Are you able to defend your condemnation or your cessationist stand with just ONE VERSE THAT ALL GIFTS, POWERS GIVEN TO THE APOSTLES AS HAVING CEASED. I AWAIT YOUR REPLY. AND PLEASE DO NOT QUOTE 1COR 13:13! THAT IS ABOUT THE SUPREMACY OF LOVE OVER ANYTHING ELSE OF THE FAITH!!!

        • Ed Dingess

          What makes you think I do not experience the witness or illumination of the Spirit? Because I think Benny Hinn is a demon in the flesh? The claims of these charlatans have been proven false for years. Their teachings are clearly out of step with the most basic exegesis of Scripture. Their lifestyles demonstrate a profane love for money, power, and fame. They are as far removed from Christ as the devil himself. How is that for a response?

          • Brokenit

            Your argument is again dishonest and you have not answered docmacvet and again inserted an irrelevant statement that has nothing to do with the scripture that he referenced and asked for your response to. You do realise that dishonesty is not a fruit of the Spirit ?

          • Ed Dingess

            Dishonest? That is an odd way to put it. The argument is simple. There are no miracle workers today. Everyone claiming to be a “miracle worker” also, oddly enough, teaches a false gospel and engages in deceitful practices. There miracles NEVER check out. How many of these men have to be exposed before you people will stop following them in the hopes that God is your key to financial windfalls and American success?

          • Brokenit

            Again you have NOT answered the question with regard to the scriptures and have offered your own opinion, which God regards as idolatorous. Bowing down and worshipping at the altar of your own opinion is merely an argument and a pretension that has set itself up aginst the knowledge of Jesus.

            Q: Where in the in SCRIPTURES is there (quoting docmacvet) ” just ONE VERSE THAT ALL GIFTS, POWERS GIVEN TO THE APOSTLES AS HAVING
            CEASED. I AWAIT YOUR REPLY. AND PLEASE DO NOT QUOTE 1COR 13:13! THAT IS
            ABOUT THE SUPREMACY OF LOVE OVER ANYTHING ELSE OF THE FAITH!!! “

          • Ed Dingess

            Scripture describes tongues as real, understandable languages. Interpretation of tongues is a poor English translation. It should be translation of tongues. I compare what you do with what Scripture describes and they are not even close to being the same. Not even a slight resemblance. So, I conclude that what your doing is not the gifts of the Spirit because of the major differences. You don’t actually work real miracles, or really heal really sick people, or speak in foreign languages supernaturally or translate them supernaturally, or give true future prophecies, or any of that. Then I wonder why didn’t the gifts continue. And a study of Scripture helps me understand the transitional nature of NT history and that leads me to a better understanding of the nature and purpose of Scripture as God’s final, closed, self-attesting, all sufficient, authoritative revelation. Then I realize I do not need those gifts any longer because I now have God’s fixed inscripturated revelation as my only guide and standard.

            Either Scripture is sufficient or new revelation is superfluous. Which is it Broke. If new revelation is necessary, then Scripture is NOT sufficient. If new revelation is not necessary, then it is superfluous. Pick one pal.

      • Brokenit

        “It is the Charismatics who claim that you have to speak in
        unintelligible broken syllables in order to be baptized with the Spirit.”

        You are making a completely erroneous statement and then attributing it to people who have the gifts of the Spirit. It is the classic straw man method of argument, which is actually very dishonest and quite frankly a lie. I have some gifts of the Spirit and that statement is wrong in so many ways that it is obvious that you do not have a clue what you are talking about.

        • Ed Dingess

          Your are simply ignorant of what Scripture teaches. Unless it is a genuine language, it isn’t tongues of the NT. It is a fake. The Tongues spoken in the NT were a real language. If you deny that, you deny the NT description of this experience. Every understanding of NT tongues has to hold that it is real languages. Even Pentecostals thought it was a real language until their missionaries went out and looked like buffoons speaking gibbering. Then they came up with some new interpretations to try and make it work.

          • Brokenit

            The NT teaches that it is the language of angels and of men for the private edification of the person speaking it’s and not to go out and to use it to preach the gospel to people whose language you don’t know. What madness are you referring to when missionaries go out speaking “gibbering” ? Let me know when some genius also knows what language angels speak. You misquote scripture and leave out the parts that don’t fit in with what you want to believe and then refer to some fallacious rumour that you attribute to Christians.

            Your arguments are exactly the same as atheists who say that Christians and the bible are evil and malign the character of God by referring to some abuses by people who are either not Christians or when one goes back to verify the horrific accusations, one finds there is no thread of evidence for the stories and these are merely lies that have been perpetuated by the enemy. Repeating a lie is as bad as lying yourself !

          • Ed Dingess

            The NT does NOT teach that tongues is the language of angels. Paul’s teaching in 1 Cor. 13 is about the superiority of love, not the mechanics of tongues. He was speaking hypothetically. He did not speak in the tongues of angels just like he had not given his body to be burned, etc., etc. Luke describes what happened in Acts 2 as real languages. Unless you are speaking in a real language, you are not speaking in NT tongues. And yes, you should NOT speak in that language in Church back then unless someone could interpret it, or unless you could interpret it. And if you could understand your language by way of gifting as well, it would NOT edify you. How could it? You don’t even understand what you are saying. If gibberish does not edify your brother because he cannot understand it, it cannot edify you either. 1 Cor. 14 is far more complex than you realize because it is speaking about a practice that we have never experienced. But it MUST be interpreted through the lens of Acts 2.

            I am a trained apologist. My arguments resemble atheists arguments not even in the slightest. You come to Charlotte and raise someone from the dead and then we will have something to talk about. Or get one of your Pentecostal power preachers to come over here…ANYONE of them and work some real miracles and then we will have something to talk about. Until then, you fellows will continue to be marginalized as full of hot air, fascinated more with experience than with Scripture and truth. So far, not one Pentecostal has stepped up to the challenge of ending this debate by showing us they can do as Jesus and the Apostles did and empty a hospital. Not ONE! My response is put up or shut up. This isn’t a theoretical debate. It is an empirical one. The claim that miracle workers still exist is not a matter for abstract doctrine to settle. It is a matter for empirical observation. Put your miracles where you mouth is.

          • Anthony

            The Acts 2 kind of tongues were spoken to men from other nations, (so they could hear the wonders of God in their own languages). Paul says explicitly that the 1 Cor. 14 tongues are NOT spoken to men, but to God (14:2). The 1 Cor. tongues require a SUPERNATURAL gift of interpretation – NOT A NATURAL INTERPRETER – the gift of interpretation which Paul refers to in ch. 14, is, in the flow of the letter, clearly one of the 9 so-called supernatural sign gifts of ch. 12. If the 1 Cor. tongues require a supernatural gift of interpretation, that causes us to question whether they are the Acts 2 kind of natural languages, supernaturally learned. It seems two types of tongues ARE taught in the scriptures.
            My more general point about the supernatural life of believers is this… if we love the word of God, then we’ll believe what Jesus said in Matthew 28:20, when he commissioned his first disciples to teach new disciples to obey EVERYTHING He had commanded his first disciples. Jesus not only commanded radical things like forgiveness and love of enemies – He also clearly commanded His first disciples to glorify Him by other radical means, such as healing the sick, raising the dead and casting out demons (Matthew 10:8). He gave them the power to do this – it was not their own – but they were clearly commanded to walk in this power and later clearly commanded by Jesus to teach others to do the same. That part of the Great Commission hasn’t ceased, unless you want to say that the other parts of it have ceased too? What is the basis of cessationist theology? Is it really a love for the word of God, as cessationists so readily proclaim? Or could it be that fear and/or unbelief form the real basis of their interpretation of clear texts? Why, for example, do many cessationists teach that the works referred to by Jesus in John 14:12, are not miraculous works, when they so obviously are, from the context of the preceding verse and many other references to Jesus’ miraculous works in John’s Gospel? Could the real reason be a fear of the implications of Jesus teaching that all believers will be able to walk out the same kind of supernatural life that He had done, to bring Him glory? Instead of their continuous references to charismatic excesses, the guardians of “sola scriptura” should make their arguments from scripture ALONE. The fact that they spend at least as much time pointing to charismatic excesses, as they do to their perplexing interpretation of certain Bible passages, perhaps reveals the paucity of biblical support for their position. It is very dangerous to formulate doctrine from experience – which can be lethal for the cessationist as quickly as it can be for the charismatic. This is equally dangerous in other areas of doctrine too – for example, you wouldn’t want to argue that the doctrines of the final judgement and hell have ceased because we haven’t had tangible experience of them, or because they are so poorly represented by Westboro “Baptist” “church”. Ditto any negative experience (or lack of any experience at all) of charismatic practice. We should never lower the word of God to the level of our personal experience, and that applies to the clear scriptural teachings on the miraculous dimension of the preaching and teaching of the Gospel. Having said all that, I have a number of cessationist friends and I consider them true brothers and sisters in Christ. However, I believe they are badly mistaken on this topic. We’re much better off humbly receiving and seeking to practise what Jesus so clearly taught in this area, however scary that may be for all of us, than doing all kinds of intellectual gymnastics to escape it. Sorry if that sounds harsh, but if it’s the truth then it needs to be said. It’s not said with anger, and I pray you will hear it in love. God bless.

          • Ed Dingess

            Your interpretation has no biblical warrant and no exegetical support whatsoever. Wanting 1 Corinthians to be a different “kind of tongues” in order to claim your unintelligible gibberish is biblical won’t make it so. Scripture interprets Scripture. This is not to deny that supernatural gifts of translation existed. They did. But if one knew that language, no such gift was necessary. Your understanding of Matt. 28:20 is also implausible because it seeks to build on a system of theology that you cannot defend from a biblical perspective. There is no hint anywhere in the NT that the gift of languages should be understood as unintelligible broken syllables spoken really fast. Anyone can fake that nonsense. Yet, it is supposed to be the power of God. When the disciples were filled with the Spirit, they spoke in real languages. When Pentecostals started this nonsense 100 years ago, they thought they were speaking in real languages. Your interpretation is a Johnny come lately, rescuing device that falls flat on its face.

          • Anthony

            I don’t “want 1 Corinthians to be a different kind of tongues”, as you put it. You’re assuming that the gift of tongues is especially important to me, which it’s not. There are actually other gifts of the Spirit which are of greater importance in my personal walk with the Lord than tongues, so I don’t need scripture to say anything to me about tongues. My understanding, which I’m happy to be corrected, is based on a close reading and comparison of the texts of Acts 2 and 1 Corinthians 12-14. Paul has talked about the tongues of men and of angels in 1 Cor. 13, which I could accept as a poetic device, if it were not for the statements he goes on to make in 1 Cor. 14. The kind of tongues he mentions here are for personal edification, when not interpreted (v. 4), so how can they edify the speaker if they are natural languages he doesn’t himself speak or understand? That sounds like a supernatural edification provided through a heavenly language to me. Then verse 2 tells us that the speaker of such tongues speaks NOT to men, but to God. This is the opposite flow to Acts 2, when the speakers spoke FROM God TO men. I can totally understand why the Holy Spirit gave the apostles the languages they spoke in Acts 2 on that day of Pentecost – because there were foreigners there whose first languages were the languages that God had given the apostles. On the other hand, I can’t see why the infinitely wise Holy Spirit would give other earthly languages to people in Corinth when it seems nobody from those other language groups was attending their meetings! Then verse 2 adds that a person speaking in the kind of tongues Paul is talking about, “utters mysteries in the Spirit”. They would not be mysteries if earthly languages were in view – because earthly languages can be translated with the mind and with the understanding, even if that takes some work and research. I don’t think you fully understood my point about supernatural translation, which may be my fault – what I was trying to say was this: if the gift of interpretation was for earthly languages, the whole exercise just doesn’t make sense to me. I’m not telling the Holy Spirit what to do, and of course if He wants to reveal a higher wisdom to me on this that I don’t understand, I’ll listen – but why would He give another earthly language to a believer, who then has noone from that other language group to share the Gospel with, which seems to have been the case at Corinth? And why set up a gift of interpretation of that earthly language to edify the wider church? It just doesn’t make sense to me. On the other hand, if an “in the Spirit” heavenly language is in view, strengthening believers in their personal walk with God, even though they don’t understand it, and edifying the wider church when the heaven-given interpretation is brought, then that joins the dots much better as far as I can see. Regarding my comments on the more general exercise of God-given supernatural power (not just tongues, and contrasted with any demonic counterfeit), then I’m all ears if you want to explain from the Bible why my interpretation of Matthew 28:20, in conjunction with the other scriptures I brought, is wrong. I would also like to hear your understanding of what Jesus was saying at John 14:12. If you can show me from scripture why I shouldn’t be taking those statements of Jesus literally, then I will gladly listen and discuss. God’s richest blessings to you.

          • Ed Dingess

            1 Corinthians MUST be interpreted through the greater light of Acts 2. Tongues of men and angels are both a hypothetical statement to the supernatural. What Pentecostals do is NOT supernatural and the claim that it is proves that it isn’t because supernatural acts are self-evident…you know, like raising the dead, or speaking in fluent French when i was never taught it in my life. Now, if I spoke or prayed in French in my church, no one would be edified. Only I would be edified seeing that I am praying. If the whole church had various language gifts and everyone spoke them all at once, it would be chaos. I come from a Pentecostal background. I was a licensed Church of God (Cleveland, TN) pastor. Try this if you really want to get it right: try interpreting 1 Cor. 14 with the understanding that Paul is talking about genuine languages and see if you can find circumstances back then that would make what Paul is saying make sense. One thing is for sure: unbroken syllables that can be mimicked by a 3 year old without any effort is not a supernatural sign. That thinking is simply implausible on every level.

          • Anthony

            Hi Ed, hope you’re having a blessed weekend :) I’m not sure on what basis Acts 2 is the greater light? Is it because it’s the first mention? If that’s the case then there’s a whole host of doctrines we could get confused on. If what God says about obeying the law in Deuteronomy 28 is the greater light for interpreting what Galatians has to say about it, we could get into some theological trouble quite quickly! Even if you contest my point on the grounds of Covenant, I still don’t see why 1 Cor must be interpreted in the light of Acts 2, or why Acts 2 is necessarily the greater light. It is entirely possible for later scriptures to add to our understanding of earlier scriptures on any given topic – it is not a hard and fast rule that later scriptures must simply repeat earlier statements about the same topic. God will never contradict His word, but He is at perfect liberty to contradict our understanding of it. I won’t engage with your experiences of hearing utterances that you say are gibberish. They may or may not be, but experience counts for nothing. There will always be claimed experiences that are not real, or demonic counterfeits, or, conversely, wrong accusations from cessationists against Holy Spirit experiences that ARE real. I’d much rather hear your biblical defence of cessationism in general, and your biblical response to even the few scriptures I’ve raised (and there are many others I could highlight). As for tongues in particular, I’ve raised some particular points of comparison / contrast between Acts 2 and 1 Cor which I haven’t seen you address – general unexplained sweeping statements featuring questionable methods of interpretation won’t do, and nor will general accusations of my poor exegesis (again, without explanation) – you’ll need to show biblically, with particular analysis of verses and passages, in context, why continuationism is false doctrine, and why I’ve misunderstood what Jesus was really saying in this area. If you can do that, we can have a proper discussion. As I said before, I’ve got cessationist friends who I believe are true brothers and sisters in Christ, so I’m more than happy to “agree to disagree” without questioning anyone’s salvation, but it would be nice to have a biblically based discussion and leave out arguments based on experience. God bless :):)

          • http://reformedreasons.blogspot.com/ Ed Dingess

            Hi Anthony,

            I do not think it is appropriate to look at Acts as if it is the “greater” light. But it is certainly the “clearer” light. When we look at the word γλωσσα, we must look at how other NT passages describe that word to see if we can better understand more about it. So the principle that obscure passages are to be interpreted in light of clearer passages is an age-old principle of biblical interpretation that serves the Christian well in his study of Scripture. It is surely superior to the modern Pentecostal method of anachronistically imposing their modern mystical and hyper-emotional experiences on the ancient text.

            Actually, the NT is the light through which we would usually interpret the OT since it is the nature of divine revelation to be progressive. However, Acts and 1 Corinthians are included in the same final act of God revealing and so your analogy fails. Acts 2 gives a very detailed account of what tongues, or better, the gift of languages, actually is. 1 Corinthians assumes a background on the part of the reader than neither you nor I possess. Therefore, we must look for help and we begin that search in other places within the NT documents. In this case, we have that help in the form of Acts 2. If you want to claim that 1 Corinthians 14 is a different kind of gift than the one defining the Christian movement in Acts 2, then the burden of proof is squarely on you. I have demonstrated that 1 Corinthians 14, while a difficult chapter to interpret, can be interpreted quite consistently with my position. And at the end of the day, my reasoning is grounded in Scripture from start to finish. The modern Pentecostal interpretation was initially the very same position that I hold but when they discovered that their sounds were not real languages, but rather, unintelligible, irrational gibberish, they revised their entire approach to interpreting 1 Corinthians 14 and invented things like private prayer languages and such. Outside the experience of Pentecostalism, it is difficult to take their reasoning seriously.

          • nicholas

            and then we say…what would a non-believer think while reading all this. I think the number one reason for people refusing to be Christian and come to the faith is because of us Christians ourselves.

            The true church consists of people from every movement. Baptists, Charismatics, Anglicans. People who have recognized their need for a Saviour and who have been transformed in Christ by doing so. Too many of us today based our salvation on whether or not we have ”correct doctrine”. NO ONE has perfectly correct doctrine. Of course there are fundamental doctrines we CANNOT disagree upon but, there are so many other doctrines are not essential. We need to strive for unity. Agree to disagree on certain topics and move forward in our testimony and spiritual growth. I personally have seen such amazing, Spirit-filled people who are strongly devoted to Jesus within the Charismatic movement but also, I have found them within other movements. Unity guys, unity. This constant arguing about insignificant issues is SUCH a bad testimony to the outside world and we will be judged for leading people AWAY from Christ.

          • Anthony

            I agree with you in some of what you’ve said, Nicholas. You may have seen in my post that I have cessationist friends who I consider true brothers and sisters in the Lord. But I still believe cessationist teaching is error, as my cessationist friends know. That doesn’t stop us being friends though and we do have many edifying discussions on other topics, and some very interesting discussions on cessationism! As for this disagreement leading people away from Christ, I’m not so sure about that – no one who is truly born again will renounce Christ because of a topic like this. And I don’t think there would many people who aren’t Christians visiting a blog titled the way this one is. I do share your desire for unity, but a key part of unity is not taking offence when someone disagrees with you on, as you said, “non-essential” doctrinal issues. I can honestly say I’m enjoying the discussion, I’ve been accused of a lot worse than speaking gibberish ha ha, and probably deservedly so sometimes :):)

          • nicholas

            Hi Anthony, I agree with everything you have said. Good doctrine on the fundamentals are essential to having a saving relationship with Christ. I am a continuationist and am self-identified as a charismatic but as I got older and explored the world I met many, many friends who are staunch cessationist and very against charismatic teachings. I have friends who believe salvation can be lost, others who think contemporary worship is all wrong and self-worship, others who think we ALL have to speak in tongues. However, we are friends. However, we have the liberty to have these non-essential (in my view) convictions. I have come to understand that the charismatic movement has caused many problems, if not the majority of problems in today’s church….but, every denomination has caused problems and no-one has perfect, sound doctrine if they are going to debate over tiny, non-essential things that don’t even have to do with Jesus himself at the end of the day. What saddens me is that us Christians fighting and calling each other ”heretics” over things that are not even essential to the faith, things that the Bible doesn’t even speak clearly upon most probably because they are not important, has caused so many divisions and I see that it is the way we treat each other regarding our differences that has caused non-believers (sorry if you thought I meant those who are already Christians) to look at us and think…wow…they cant preach to us about stuff they can’t even find unity upon. Thats why I always go back to the basics. Unity is the essentials, liberty in the non-essentials and charity for all. Jesus, the Cross, the price paid on Calvary and a life chaged as a result of his sanctification. I basically, I see that we need to live this way in order to be of powerful testimony to a world that doesnt know Jesus.

            My fear is that so many Christians strive for perfect knowledge and doctrine within even the non-essentials…but…miss the point. Jesus Himself. Doctrine being perfect is not what saves. It’s a God being perfect, that saves.

            God bless, Anthony and thanks for your comment!

          • Michael Ritchie

            He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself .tongues and interpretation equal prophecy. Ed you are either purposely deceiving people or are decieved. There is no way you are being truthful with yourself.the bible says no man understands him. Do you understand me yes you do why I am speaking in english.

          • Michael Ritchie

            Ed I hope you don’t think I believe what you are saying. That would be a terrible delusion

          • Michael Ritchie

            If I pray in an unknown tongue my spirit prays but my understanding is unfruitful. He that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men but unto god. I will pray with the spirit and with my understanding. Two different things you say I don’t understand that it’s unfruitful.the natural man recieveth not the things of the spirit of god because they are spiritually discerned. You know the bible so did the pharisees . They also were convicted that the work of the holy spirit was of the devil. I asked God for bread would he give me a scorpion.

          • http://reformedreasons.blogspot.com/ Ed Dingess

            Not exactly Michael. “No man” should be understood as no man “in that specific worship” event. To think that Paul was claiming that no man in the entire world understands him is a clear and obvious contradiction of Acts 2:7-8, 7 They were amazed and astonished, saying, “Why, are not all these who are speaking Galileans? 8 “And how is it that we each hear them in our own language to which we were born? This is the very same word used in 1 Corinthians 14. To translate it tongues is not the best translation. It should be rendered languages.

            The modern Pentecostal definition of tongues (languages) and interpretation (translation) is foreign to Scripture. It has its roots in extremist Pentecostal theology.

          • Michael Ritchie

            I believe no man means no man. I believe jesus used word like seed boat word. I thank thee lord that you had hidden these things from the wise and prudent and revealed them unto babes

          • http://reformedreasons.blogspot.com/ Ed Dingess

            Then you are left believing that the Bible says one thing in 1 Corinthians 14 and something completely different in Acts 2. Your view impales the Bible on an unavoidable and devastating contradiction and calls the fidelity of Scripture itself into question. And you do so, not because “no man” MUST be taken in such a wooden literal manner, but you take it that way in order to rescue your belief and satisfy your intellectual desire to keep your theology in tact. Words removed from the context in which they appear are nothing more than empty symbols detached from meaning. The context of Scripture, both 1 Cor. 14 and Acts 2 must serve as that which informs the meaning of the word “languages” (tongues) as it us used in the NT. There are things about that phenomenon we simply do not understand but we do understand enough about it that we can benefit from it as God has purposed.

          • Michael Ritchie

            Having a form of godliness but denying the(dunamis) power thereof . From such turn away. According to the bible I have to turn away from you ed.

          • http://reformedreasons.blogspot.com/ Ed Dingess

            Michael, I used to be Pentecostal and used to use that verse just like you did until I realized how wrong my interpretation of it was. I will pray for you. Try not to get carried away. I do not deny God’s power. I deny those goose pimples you feel when your pastor tells you that God wants you to be rich and powerful are the power of God. I deny that charlatans like Creflo Dollar and Benny Hinn have the power of God…etc.

  • http://www.psalm1lifestyle.wordpress.com/ Chris Madlena

    Anyone who knows anything about Dr. MacArthur and his ministry knows that he is not attacking the movement as a whole but the worst abuses found in it. He does not need to issue any clarification because the Strange Fire website and his comments about the “strange fire” he speaks of clearly denote that he is referring to the heretical and blasphemous abuses found within the movement that attack the deity of Christ and the character of God. Listen to his sermons and read his past work on the subject. These are not “secondary issues” and while it is true that he believes in the cessation of the sign gifts, the conference is going to be dealing with issues far more serious than that. Unfortunately your article stirs up a controversy where none exists. Rather than create an issue and distort the teachings of a man with a 40 year reputation of being a theological leader and pastor of Biblical truth, perhaps you should address the “abuses” you reference early in your blog. The “strange fire” being spoken of is leading many to hell. Thank God for Dr. MacArthur and the other speakers at the conference who will expose these blasphemous attacks on the very makeup and character of God.

    • Margot Murray

      @ Chris – and John Macarthur had extended an open invitation for charismatic Christians to attend the conference from the outset months ago. And quite a few charismatic Christians have expressed gratitude that this conference is going ahead, having voiced their own concerns…

    • John B

      Why would I as a Pentecostal fall under the teaching of someone who believes the gifts have ceased and has stated speaking in tongues is blasphemy of the HS? Makes no sense

      • Margot Murray

        @ John B – can you define tongues? I spoke in “tongues” for 22 years, in other words I “babbled” in large crowds of out-of-order services. Certainly not two or three and at most definitely no interpretation.
        The bible is quite clear what true tongues areand how they are to used (if applicable for today). So what we hear today makes no sense :)

        • John B

          Margot,

          ALL of what we hear makes no sense? You can account for every instance of tongues spoken?

        • http://loneprairie.net/ Julie R. Neidlinger

          I don’t see how you could possibly speak for every instance. You can only speak out of your own experience. It is not the same case for everyone. You use too broad a brush and rely on your specific experiential sphere to make a determination. It might not be true, or, at the very least, the full picture.

        • http://www.facebook.com/people/Bro-Juntunen/100001252637004 Bro Juntunen

          See, that’s what you did. I don’t do that. I pray every once in a while in tongues while I am alone with God and when I feel prompted to do so. You quite possibly abused the gift or perhaps you never had the gift. My father spoke out in tongues in church and that morning several migrant workers who were American Indians understood his words and asked me how he new the Navajo language. That is one experience. Also my father was not a perfect man but as I heard on the radio, there was a surgeon who said that God uses crooked sticks to make straight lines. I believe that.

          • tag116

            I agree. It’s so sad to see Christians speaking against this gift of the holy spirit. I was born again 14 years ago and was asked to attend a Pentecostal church. My friend who invited me gave me the heads up there might be tongues. At the time I had no knowledge of this and was very uncomfortable. I began attending services and did not accept or receive what they were doing. I began to pray to the Lord to show me if this was of him. During one service as the tongues began I became aware of what was being said. As the interpretation was made I was amazed I understood what was spoken. I felt the Lord impress upon me his word was spoken. Today I rarely speak in tongues only when I am in deep worship with the Lord and praying. I have attending churches where I have seen worship out of order but there is disorder in every church whether they acknowledge tongues or not.

      • http://www.facebook.com/people/Bro-Juntunen/100001252637004 Bro Juntunen

        Amen brother, amen! Forget MacArthur. Do not support him with your money, anyone who loves the Holy Spirit’s work. I also hate the abuses and fraud within the charismatic community, but I can’t throw out what I know for what I don’t like.

  • Vic Christian

    What a headline! Now I know which organizations and web sites to stay away from as you are obviously attempting to cause problems within the church. No – you are not just giving the news. This article is opinionated, judgmental and incorrect.

    • John B

      Vic,

      Did you read the post? MacArthur is saying speaking in tongues is equal to blasphemy of the HS. I read it, what are you missing?

      John

      • Vic Christian

        John – I appreciate your reply. No where does John MacArthur state that all charismatics, especially not half a billion, are doing this. Question – I recently posted this on another post on this subject. Can you respond? ” I see a major issue with what you refer to as “sound charismatics”. If the gifts being practiced are in fact for today, and they are being practiced in charismatic churches and not in others, then by definition the others must either be non-Christian or disobedient to the Word and the Spirit of God. You cannot have both being obedient. Therefore, I do not see how there can be unity between the two”. Thank you!

        • John B

          Vic,

          Read Johnny Mac’s quote,

          ……. Pentecostals and Charismatics who feel they have free license to abuse the Holy Spirit and even blaspheme His holy name. And they do it constantly. How do they do it? …….. speaking in tongues

          I know of no Charismatic/pentecostal group that doesn’t believe in speaking in tongues.

          DO you know of any?

          John

          • Vic Christian

            John – please answer my question. Not just you, but I am looking for an answer from anyone.Thank you!

          • John B

            VIc,

            I’m not going to accuse all cessationists of being disobedient. I am sure many are honestly convinced from scripture the gifts have ceased. But still many could be convinced they haven’t ceased but still hold to the cessationist position to protect tradition, there denomination or for other possible reasons. That would be disobedient but I can’t judge a persons heart.

            Of course I am convinced from scripture they haven’t ceased. So I don’t feel I am being disobedient.

            But why focus only on this theological issue? There are many theological issues that good Christians disagree on, do we accuse each other of being disobedient on those issues?

            John

      • Vic Christian

        John B – no, I do not see that. In the “update” he lists tongues as an example – yes. However, the original article with that headline did not have the update.

  • Margot Murray

    I go on record saying how grateful I am that John Macarthur has given a clear clarion call against “charismania excesses”. Speaking from personal experience as a former charismaniac, I was very upset when first exposed to his book “Charismatic Chaos”, did not want to believe that I could be deceived but He overcame my pride and drew me into His rest….

    By the way these issues been already extensively covered.
    http://mennoknight.wordpress.com/2013/07/27/an-update-on-the-whole-michael-brownstrange-firejohn-macarthur-hullabaloo/
    http://mennoknight.wordpress.com/2013/09/13/adrian-warnock-buys-the-strange-fire-broken-record/

  • Jonathan Poulton

    What a spurious headline! I’ve listened to the clip twice through very carefully and he says, or implies, no such thing. His words are clear, measured and true. There is a problem within the movement, abuse exists, and few within the movement are prepared publicly to acknowledge the fact. It’s a matter of discernment. Discernment is often in short supply in Charismatic circles, and it’s certainly lacking in your dishonest, inaccurate, tabloid-style headline. Instead of attacking and misrepresenting the whistleblower, it would be more beneficial for the body of Christ if you dealt with the concerns raised.

    • http://adrianwarnock.com/ Adrian Warnock

      He speaks of “the movement” needing to be opposed and the reason for this is blasphemy. In the quote from his sermon that now ends the post it is to me at least clear he feels that all charismatics blaspheme the Spirit. That seems to be pyromaniacs view to in some of their tweets. If somone finds a quote where he says its only some charismatics he is targeting I’d be happy to add that to the post.

      • mel mariner

        Did you watch #7? I believe he states in that one that it is not all charismatics and he invites those that are not part of the movement that rips people off to join him in calling out the false teachers. My paraphrase of what he said.

  • DaveTea

    As a continuationist I welcome MacArthur’s conference – it’s what us charismatics need in this hour. The only sad thing is that it’s left to a cessationist to point out what should be blatantly obvious to all those who claim to love the word as much as the Spirit. Adrian, if you and others had taken time to use your blog and platforms of influence to call out the extremes and the silliness, and warn of the blasphemous activities that have infected so many of our churches over the years then maybe we wouldn’t need a conference such as this.

    • http://adrianwarnock.com/ Adrian Warnock

      If I spent my time as a watchblogger calling out every cook, crook and conartist I’d have no time to do anything else. I’d much rather accentuate the positive and ignore the negative.

      • DaveTea

        And yet your more than happy to call out John MacArthur? Tell me, what is it about this post that ‘accentuates the positive’ ?

        • http://adrianwarnock.com/ Adrian Warnock

          The way I interpret his video it accuses the whole charismatic movement of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, to me thats about as serious as it gets.

  • stvnhthr

    John MacArthur suffers from a lack of credibility in this area since his writing of “Charismatic Chaos.” He chose in that book to focus on only the more fringe elements of the Charismatic and Pentecostal movements to paint a distorted caricature of the actual practices and beliefs of his fellow Christians in these camps. John to my knowledge has never apologized for his terribly one sided inaccurate depiction of us Charismatics in this earlier work, it is hard to put trust in the man if he now wants to offer a kinder, more inclusive critique of us spirit-filled brothers and sisters in Christ. As a militant cessationist MacArthur seems to be now stating, “All you Charismatics are wrong, but these radical practitioners are blasphemously wrong.” He is because of his history, his beliefs, and his practices the wrong man to attempt to deliver this message.

    John MacArthur is a wonderful teacher, preacher and Bible expositor, but as a cessationist he is the wrong man to point out the faults in the Charismatic wings of the Church. He seems to be issuing a call for us Charismatics to be self policing; the problem is by not regularly being around healthy spiritual gift practitioners he seems to be ignorant of the fact we already are working against misapplying the gifts; he might do well and have more credibility if he instead focused his criticisms at those in his own camp prone to extremism.

    • Ed Dingess

      I came from the Pentecostal movement and I have that book. And your characterization of Charismatics is bologna. It is NOT the fringe elements of the movement. If anything, the fringe elements are the elements that decry the nonsense. Charismatic Chaos covers a very large majority segment of Charismatic theology. I know…been there…done that.

      • stvnhthr

        Perhaps you were witnessing part of the fringe element at your previous church home? Since leaving that church have you found a more balanced church home? I too have personal experience, but it is tempered with talking to hundreds of individuals from dozens of church backgrounds and hearing what God is doing in different Countries.

        I for sure have met some individuals who represent denominations who had Charismaniac beliefs, but they aren’t the norm; they weren’t bad people just very immature and inexperienced in observing a better paradigm to fit their spiritual experiences into.

        I’m not the standard for Christianity, God may use His gifts to bless someone else in a manner very unfamiliar to me, but it will always align with the principles of scripture. Even if someone dismissed the spiritual gifts found in the Bible, they still have to recognize they are in there for a purpose. If today the gifts are used for the same purposes and result in the same fruitful ministry that should bolster the credibility of their use. What you often see in the misuse is a lack of fruit or worse a divisive nature to the use, this is what needs corrected.

        • docmacdvet

          I agree to that. So much for all the conflation of all generalizations that are too simplistic to be logically sound!

      • http://loneprairie.net/ Julie R. Neidlinger

        I, too, have been there. I couldn’t disagree with you more. So your experience tells you one thing and forms your opinion, and mine another and forms my opinion, and here we all are, certain we’re right. I grew up in the Pentecostal movement, and it was not nutty or anything remotely close to what MacArthur describes. I know…been there…done that.

      • Brokenit

        There are many cults who do not excercise the gifts of the Spirit and manage to twist scriptures to fit their own doctrine. Should we thus discard Scriptures altogether because they can be manipulated by unspiritual people, as atheists continuously demand ? This is the nature of the flesh and people who do weird things and attribute them to the Spirit of God are just as much in the flesh as people who twist scriptures.

        So thus by your reasoning, the gifts of the Spirit must be discarded and so must the Scriptures, as both could lead to error.

        You have thrown the baby out with the bathwater and your reasoning is just as carnal, fleshly and demonic, as the reaction of atheists.

        • Ed Dingess

          No one is disregarding Scripture. We are condemning and rejecting the absurd interpretation of Scripture given it by Pentecostals and Charismatics.

          • Brokenit

            Your personal experiences is irrelevant and some people misinterpret scripture, but that does not mean that you discard the truth of the Scriptures because you have been with people (who call themselves Pentecostals and Charismatics) and wrongly divide or understand the Scriptures. You are painting all Christians who have the gifts of the Spirit with same brush. I am a Christian because I believe in Christ Jesus and him crucified. It is great error to make distinction between Christians and to try to label them as Pentacostal, Evangelical, Charismatic etc instead of Christians. The nature of carnal man to try to bully people into following their opinion and to label them into a certain camp in order to isolate them, instead of addressing the failures of reasoning where SCRIPTURE is being violated and correct that and not make generalised sweeping accusations that are unspecific. Jesus gave spiritual gifts to men and they have not ceased for Christians. That is in the Scriptures and where does it say they have ceased ?

          • Ed Dingess

            No….I am denying that what pentecostals call gifts of the Spirit are actually gifts of the Spirit. Gibberish is not tongues. Tongues is a real language. There are no miracle workers running around. God is NOT giving new revelation. Either Scripture is sufficient or new revelation is superfluous. If new revelation is not superfluous then Scripture is not sufficient. There is a reason that the major confessions begin with Scripture. Pentecostals don’t get it. I was in the movement for a number of years and as I studied Scripture and observe people, I understood it to be an enormous error. Grace brought me out. Scriptures do not have to say that miracle workers ceased. We know that they must have because we don’t see anyone working real miracles. We don’t see people miraculously speaking in real languages they were never taught. Additionally, the Pentecostals completely ignore the principles of biblical leadership. The errors are more than we can count. Most pentecostals deny eternal security which reflects a lack of understanding on the basics of Christian salvation. I could go on…but we are just beating a dead, gibberish-speaking horse.

  • Devon

    Great article Adrian and spot on! I like John MacArther even though I am not reformed in my doctrine and indeed lean pentacostal but John, like some in the Reform wing of Christianity do tend to throw the baby out with the bath water! For all the excesses and goofiness that we find in the Charasmatic movement, it has on the whole been a great thing for the Body of Christ!

  • CPS

    Adrian,

    Would you say that it’s possible for someone who sits under and accepts and agrees completely with MacArthur’s cessationism is able to experience the same fullness of communion with the Triune God and the same fellowship with Christ in the Holy Spirit as might someone sitting agreeably under the teaching of a responsible continuationist as yourself or, say, Dr. Grudem, or Dr. Piper?

    • http://adrianwarnock.com/ Adrian Warnock

      Honestly? I have absolutely no idea. As I think it was Packer made the point most reformed folks today never talk about their personal relationship with God, so how could I assess it even if such a thing were wise in the first place!

      • CPS

        Come on, Adrian–no need to straddle the fence here! If MacArthur teaches that the Holy Spirit does not continue to give the gifts that He gave in the apostolic age, and Grudem teaches that not only does He continue to give those gifts, but that He does so for the necessary good and the benefit of the entire church, then one of these men is right and one of these men is wrong. So if Grudem is right, where does that leave the person who sits in agreement with MacArthur?

        Put another way, if the Holy Spirit continues to give the gifts that He gave in the apostolic age for the benefit of the church, then can it be said in any meaningful sense that the otherwise-faithful cessationist church is experiencing everything that the Holy Spirit has for them?

        • John B

          CPS,

          I Cor 12, which one of the gifts are not needed?

          JOhn

          • CPS

            That’s actually not my point. What I’m getting at is this: if the gifts of, say, prophecy and miracles in 1 Cor. 12 *ARE* needed in the church, and as everyone knows MacArthur is saying that they no longer continue to the present day, then MacArthur’s teaching is something that Adrian would NECESSARILY have to say in some measure “cuts people off from God’s blessing.”

            That’s the issue–Adrian is (unintentionally, I’m sure) engaging in a bit of a double standard, rebuking MacArthur for saying that error of this kind cuts people off from God’s blessing, when he’d actually have to say exactly the same thing about MacArthur if he were being consistent with his principles.

          • John B

            The point of Adrian’s post is Johnny Mac shouldn’t be accusing non-cessationists of blaspheming the HS, Johnny Mac is wrong in his cessationist position but we’re not accusing him of blaspheming the HS. your argument is off the point.

          • CPS

            Actually, that’s exactly what you’re doing–unfortunately, with the exception of a few people here in the comments thread, you simply haven’t been forthright enough to actually ADMIT it.

            But let’s be clear what you’re saying here:

            1. MacArthur is wrong about cessationism.

            2. MacArthur is wrong to deride the charismatic movement as a whole because of a few loonies.

            3. Many of the experiences that MacArthur says are demonic are actually legitimate acts of the Holy Spirit.

            It’s item 3 that gets you–if that’s true, then MacArthur really *IS* guilty of blaspheming the Holy Spirit; you simply aren’t being consistent enough with your arguments to actually acknowledge that. So here’s the real question: Why AREN’T you willing to be consistent with your own arguments?

            (BTW, I pointed out the issue of MacArthur’s statement that people involved in any kind of error are cut off from God’s blessing because it’s something Adrian actually DID address in his original post. So it’s really not off-topic at all.)

          • http://adrianwarnock.com/ Adrian Warnock

            Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is a technical term that Jesus uses, does not fully define, and says is the unforgivable sin. I refuse to make such an allegation about anybody and am astonished that MacArthur is so readily banding such language about. Frankly it appals me.

          • John B

            Actually if Johnny Mac believes what his friend Phil Johnson teaches about “The Blasphemy of the HS” or the “unforgivable
            sin” then the sin can’t be committed today, it only could be committed during Jesus’ ministry on Earth.

            Perhaps Johnny Mac was just trying to get some attention for his conference.

            John

          • CPS

            John,

            Thanks for casting aspersions on the character of a man you don’t know, even after deriding Pastor MacArthur for doing the same (even though he DIDN’T do that at all). By so doing, you’ve made a valuable contribution to this discussion, if for no other reason than to show everyone here you don’t have any more moral high ground than MacArthur.

            And based on Adrian’s response to me, he’d be hard-pressed as well to prove that blasphemy of the Holy Spirit can still occur on earth today (since Jesus was so unhelpful as to fail to explain to us the one sin that God will never ever forgive). I suggest you show some consistency and rebuke him for the same fault you find in MacArthur and Johnson.

          • John B

            CPS,

            Of course Johnny Mac can cast aspersions on anyone he wants to your delight, You really didn’t read what I wrote, typical of someone that is just looking for a fight. I actually agree with Phil Johnson on his understanding of the “Blasphemy of the HS”. I’m done. Fire away.

          • CPS

            Actually, John, since you’ve shown that you don’t have the capacity to interact with me in an adult way at all, preferring instead your particular blend of hypocritical self-righteousness, I think I’ll take my leave.

            Cheers!

          • Ed Dingess

            The argument is precisely spot on. It is the foolishness of saying that “unless you are speaking in tongues then you do not have the full measure of the Holy Spirit like the Pentecostals do” that is no small part of the problem. Your rambling is not the tongues of Scripture anyways. Tongues are languages, real languages.

        • stvnhthr

          MacArthur can be wrong without being blasphemous, people grow in discipleship in many different areas. John is a great Bible teacher/preacher, he is a fantastic communicator, but it would appear his growth in recognizing the movement of the Holy Spirit in gifting is not developed to the level some of his other abilities are. He is not evil or bad, simply mistaken and to be lovingly and firmly shown a better way. We model God’s grace we have received when correcting a brother.

  • BrendtWayneWaters

    Regarding the update, Adrian, we have a new definition of irony: John MacArthur accusing others of being “divisive, unloving, cantankerous”.

    Levity aside, the “clarification” doesn’t really help his case any — it just adjusts the focus. The only Biblical references to blasphemy of the Holy Spirit that I can find state that such sin is unforgivable, i.e. the committer is going to hell and not passing “Go” or collecting $200.

    The BEST interpretation, therefore, is that he is ignoring the Scriptural definition/reference of the phrase (which is extremely out-of-character for a theological conservative) and misappropriating inflammatory words to gin up outrage among his listeners. Such foolishness is far beneath someone of his level of experience. But more disturbingly, it seems that he is of the opinion that Scripture is NOT sufficient to make his point.

    So we go from the heresy of claims to divinity by condemning half-a-billion people to hell to the heresy of claiming that Scripture is insufficient. Big whoop.

  • raisedtowalk

    Well, he’s right in that just because an experience is supernatural, it doesn’t mean it is from the Holy Spirit.

    And it’s true that sometimes people who pride themselves on “flowing in the spirit” attribute their thoughts to God. I’ve had someone say, “I think God is telling me we (meaning me) should do this.”

    And I was thinking, “Nope, I’m not getting that at all.”

    It wasn’t a “God thing,” it was “their” thing.

    That is why we are supposed to test the spirits. It doesn’t mean that the Holy Spirit wont be speaking at all. It means other things will be as well and we are to discern, rightly dividing the word of truth.

    So one side of blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is attributing action to him that aren’t his.

    But if you agree with that, then it necessarily follows that you must also recognize that the flip side of that is true. If you deny works that are of God, you are blaspheming him as well.

    So someone who takes a cesstionisist position of the gifts, that is something they should seriously consider.

  • J M-C

    Hi Adrian, first of all I want to thank you for your post. As I read it your position seemed to be something like this: “While I admit that there are aspects of the charismatic movement that are weak in their theology, Macarthur is wrong to lump all charismatics together and denounce the whole movement.” As a Reformed charismatic, that is precisely the position that I would take, and I am deeply saddened by the tone of some of the comments that others have written – some of which did not really listen to what you are trying to say, and almost seemed to attack you personally – which is thoroughly undeserved, and not glorifying to God. I’m sorry about that.

    The one thing I really wanted to say is that when I moved from UK to Canada, I realised that the term “charismatic” has very different connotations on the other side of the Atlantic. Back home, although the charismatic church is not always as doctrinally rooted as we would wish it to be, it certainly does not intrinsically connote heterodox ideas such as the prosperity Gospel; It is much more orthodox than that. But in North America the term is often associated with the weirder, solely experience-driven, end of the movement. Thus perhaps some of this controversy relates to the fact that different people mean different things by the term “charismatic”. I think it was George Bernard Shaw that said that ‘England and America are two countries divided by a common language’.

  • maria

    Since the mid 1800’s with the introduction of emotional Christianity by Edward Irving the Pentecostal Movement has taken liberties with the Holy Spirit. In as much that the Holy Spirit is no longer recognized as the one to lead us in all truth. The Charismatics have taken it to a whole other level which pushes the Holy Spirit into manifestations that are not biblical. We are in the false signs and wonders generation and no doubt many will be deceived as Christ warned us that Satan will have power to influence if even the elect…. best you stay to the Word of God.

  • Ed Dingess

    With all due respect Adrian, what I would like to hear is how you distinguish between the abuses and the legitimate while remaining faithful to a pentecostal hermeneutic. Either this “God spoke to me” nonsense is extra-biblical revelation that no one should dare question or it is superfluous. If God gives me something new, I cannot test it with Scripture. If God reveals to me a principle already revealed in Scripture, its redundant. I know what MacArthur says about Pentecostals and you are misrepresenting him. I was a Pentecostal. I know what goes on in their churches. Islam and Mormonism are growing quite fast as well. The legitimacy of a movement is not located in its ability to attract followers.

    • stvnhthr

      Ed,
      God will not contradict Himself. God can speak to you, but it will align with the unchanging truth of the Bible. So if you today receive a message from God (ACTS 2:17) it does not replace Scripture. I find it is usually God applying a point of Scripture which is a general universal truth to a specific situation.

      For example I was lead across town to a bar (which I didn’t frequent), directed to a specific table at a specific time, and directed to talk to a particular person. As I sat down to talk to him (I was one table away working up the courage to engage in a conversation and praying for an opening) he was saying to his date, “I don’t believe in God, I don’t know really what I believe or why.” At that point the stage was set and I had an opening for a prolonged and friendly conversation with a stranger about Jesus.

      This was a specific application of a general truth of scripture, it fit with how God had used individuals in the past and it was designed to apply it in a Bible-truth honoring method.

  • Scott Reed

    Adrian, I was in a charismatic type church for 20 years, I witnessed first hand the good and bad. What he is talking about is the many, many things that are not biblical that people attribute to the Holy Spirit, for example, visions, dreams, words of knowledge, false healings, tongues that are not the true gift etc. etc. plus the rampant practice of thinking up some message and then going to the Bible to back it up with certain scripture and then presenting that as the sermon, the preacher uses the scripture instead of the scripture using the preacher, you get what i am saying. Anyway, trust me I am not one who does not know, I know what goes on from one extreme to the other. And before you even wonder about it, yes I use to speak in tongues, but that does not qualify me to say anything. I am not going to sit here and defend every little thing about John Mac, he is a man and he is not perfect, he may even be a little strong on somethings more than others, but if you look at his entire life and how he goes through the Bible verse by verse, I have to say he is a very solid Biblical teacher who teaches the word with a underline fear of wanting to get it right and not misrepresenting the Bible. I challenge you to listen to some of his sermons. Here is sermon series that made me think Hard about what I believed about Gods Sovereignty , http://www.gty.org/resources/sermon-series/280/the-doctrines-of-grace

    I hope you will take the time to listen to these, trust me I have heard the other sides take on this. I have even taken the time to listen to sermons they have asked me to listen to just to find out they never listen to the sermons i ask them to listen to. I understand why they don’t, I use to be one of them and have to admit I never really had good Bible teaching and never really gave the Bible it’s place of authority in my life. I am to blame for that, but that was the example I was given from leadership, it was more important to have a response from the crowd than to preach Gods word. Here are the words of my “Best Friend” at the time I told him I would be going to a Baptist Church, he said ” I will take an average penta movement over a great baptist sermon any day”. Trust me I would have totally been on his side a few years back, but thank God my eyes were open to many things that just don’t line up with Gods word and my family and I had to leave.

    I also wanted to say, using numbers in an effort to make him look wrong is wrong, just because what he is accusing points the finger at millions or billions doesn’t mean he is wrong, it could just mean that many people are wrong, numbers mean nothing when it comes to wrong or right. Right is right if only one person is right. The Bible said few will find the way, few means few. How many people do you think where on the earth when Noah was alive, and God choose eight to survive. Well I am sure all those other millions of people thought they were right, but they were not.

    Just so I am clear on one thing, I know in my heart the majority of Charismatics are sincere and Love the Lord and would not blaspheme the Holy Spirit on purpose. They would never do this if they knew it was wrong, never. But I also have to say that most of the wrong that goes on is done totally out of bad teaching and good intentions. I was doing many things in the name of the Holy Spirit that was just plain wrong, but I didn’t think that at the time. I pray for my brothers and sisters in the charismatic type churches, I pray that the Lord would show them the things they are doing correct and correct the things they are doing wrong.

    Christ is Truth

  • Scott Reed

    o.k. I guess I will be the one who says it, Maybe Pastor John should not have used the word “Blasphemy”, and this will sound like I am defending him, but he meant to say the terrible misuse, abuse, neglect, and disrespect of the Holy spirit. As I have said I use to go to a “Charismatic” type church for 20 years, there are certain beliefs that span the entire group, yes I am lumping together, and those beliefs do not line up with the pattern of scripture. In the 20 years I was in this sect of the church I was in a “Christian Band” and I witnessed the abuse from one extreme to the other, I did not find one “Charismatic” church who did not operate in some sort of error, I’m not talking about getting doctrine a little off, I am talking about getting doctrine way off or adding to the doctrine in order for it to conform to the service that was going on. I am sure there are “Charismatic churches who try to “operate” in the gifts without being in error, but I have never seen it. I have never been in a service where “tongues” were practice IN ORDER, ever. As a matter of fact I have never been to a “Charismatic” prayer meeting where it was not encourage that everyone speak in tongues. I have heard many preachers say, “if you see more than three people praying in tongues don’t bother them or stop it, because they just might be praying in the spirit for you, that is just plain wrong, actually using a persons selfish nature in order to keep error going, because who would want to stop the spirit if he is praying for you, see what i am saying. Listen my “Charismatic” Brothers and Sisters, this was very, very, hard for me to admit at one time, i defended the Movement like nobody else. Let me challenge you to challenge what you believe. Does it truly stand the test of scripture, is what your doing the BEST thing (Which by the way is the whole lesson in 1 Cor. 14). I battled with this for a long time and removing my family and myself was very, very hard. I have to say, I love the Lord more now than I ever thought possible, now that I have a better understanding of his grace and that my salvation had nothing to do with me and was a total work of God.

    My whole conversion started with a simple question I ask many of my Charismatic Brothers and Sisters, I asked them, do you believe miracles and healings happen today like it happened in Jesus and the Apostles time, all said yes, I then ask have they ever seen one, meaning have they ever seen a nature defying, miracle, the kind that can not be explained away by man, no explanation other than God intervened and supernaturally made it happen, kind of like throwing a ball in one direction and it goes the opposite, and the answer I got from everyone was NO, they have never witnessed a true miracle like the kind Jesus and Apostles performed, that made me start to question things, did I have true faith.

    I use to believe that I could lose my Salvation until I had a better understanding of Grace, and no i don’t believe I can go and do whatever I want and still claim to be saved, I like to use the phase “IF Saved always saved”, those who are saved will endure to the end, if anyone could have lost his salvation when it comes to those in the Bible it was Peter, but he endured, did he not? Their are 2 belief systems in the world, Works Salvation and Grace Salvation, one is wrong and one is right. If you think any of your works gets you or keeps you saved you are on the works side and that is not Grace. That ended up being one of the major flaws I encountered with the “Charismatic” church, “most” not all believe you can take control of your salvation and lose it. Jesus said we must be born again, as I recall i had no input when it came to my first birth, and therefore had no input on the second, how could i, I was Dead in trespasses and sin, and dead men can’t respond, it was a super natural work of God, he transformed my mind and gave me his spirit to guide me the rest of my days, i couldn’t continue in sin if I wanted to, the Spirit of God would not take up resident and allow sin to continue as it did before. Christ said he would lose none of his sheep, none means none and eternal salvation means eternal salvation, you are only saved once.

    Sorry, I got on a run.

    I say this with the most sincerity I can, people are saved in both “Charismatic” and non- Charismatic churches all the time, some of the most loving people come from both sides. I really wish we could talk to each other in love and speak the truth to one another without getting a chip on our shoulder, if someone comes to me and shows me in scripture and through diligent study that i am wrong about something I should grab that brother and sister and hug them as if they just told me I won ten million dollars. If what they tell me does not line up with scripture I should care enough to tell them and i would only hope they would be as happy to hear the truth. We can often measure someones true heart by how they respond to truth, truth will set the believer free and imprison the non-believer.

    Christ is Truth

  • Nancy

    I think Mr. MacArthur is simply exposing error within a particular “fellowship” that has perhaps failed to judged itself? One cannot deny the abuses that have occurred within this particular segment of believers (I have been a “charasmatic” most of my life). A woman I know of (also a charismatic) has dedicated her life to spreading the gospel as well as exposing false teaching. She states that it is better for the body of Christ to judge one another (meaning to correct when necessary), otherwise, God will have to be the One who ends up judging us. She reminds the people about what occurred in the 80’s to two well known “charismatics” to get her point across.

    Mr. Warnock, if you have never sat under a false teacher, I’m sure you are very thankful about this. Please be patient with those who have. Mr. MacArthur is simply championing their cause, I believe.

    • Brokenit

      And he does not appear to judge himself either.

  • Joe Wendling

    Wow, Mcarthur is condemning Paul the Apostle and all the Saints of his time

  • Catherine White

    Spurious headline. John MacArthur has not charged Charismatics as blasphemers. You’ve clearly not read his books or listened to his videos.

  • Sean Steckbeck

    As an outsider, charismatic, and a partial Calvinist/Armenian. Could I give a word of advice to people trying to correct JMac? I noticed that many here are trying to give an example of a proper charismatic as “Reformed Charismatics”. But I would like to say there are also any people that are not reformed and are charismatics that are also brothers and sisters. The polemic here has three divides in these discussions. Cessatioists/Continuationists , Calvinist-Reformed/Non Calvinists-Reformed, Intellectuals-Non Intellectuals……..for instance, in defending charismatics, many people say, “but there are many Reformed charismatics” as to defend the fact they are charismatic by the fact that they are reformed. How is that supposed to make your non-Calvinists brothers and sisters feel- charismatic or not? I sense that there is a lot of doctrinal pride within the reformed movement as if they have the corner on theology. Debate is great, but humility is greater. Knowledge puffs up, but love builds up.

  • Webb Mealy

    Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, biblically speaking, is the unforgivable sin of attributing to Satan the work of the Holy Spirit. Read the Gospels. When Jesus did a dramatic work of power in healing someone and freeing him from being demonized, his religious opponents attempted to destroy this testimony to the good news by attributing it to the devil. It was in response to this stubborn spiritual cynicism that Jesus said what he said about blaspheming (i.e. insulting) the Holy Spirit. See Mt. 12:22-32 || Mk 3:20-30.

    I believe that a lot of misguided stuff is promoted and practiced in the name of Jesus, both within and outside of the charismatic and pentecostal movements. But I don’t encourage people to take a blanket view that all contemporary people who claim to have experiences of powerful working of the Holy Spirit are deluded or demonically inspired. Prophecy, tongues, dramatic and instant healings, miracles, visions, revelations of the future, and revelations of things that could not be known by ordinary means, also known as words of knowledge–all these are to many people, such as myself, among the beautiful and important testimonies to the presence and power of God through Jesus Christ.

    If something like the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is possible in the contemporary world, I would say that the closest parallel to Jesus’ use of that expression would be the person who cynically insists–and attempts to persuade others–that believers in the powerful contemporary work of God (to the extent that they’re not just fantasizing or deluded by theirown thoughts) must be inspired by the devil.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Bro-Juntunen/100001252637004 Bro Juntunen

    I have had so many experiences that it is shocking to me to finally learn from a pastor in California that I am not a true Christian. I guess I wouldn’t want to be all dry and boring like MacArthur anyway, if that’s what heaven is like, I prefer punishment in hell.

  • Gareth Lowe

    Hi Adrian, my question to you is, why do groups like New Frontiers and Sovereign Grace revere MacArthur so much when he thinks
    you are of the devil, offering false fire, and poisoning the Church?
    And it’s not like anyone is surprised that he thinks that either. He’s
    never changed his tune since Charismatic Chaos. Jack Hayford tried
    incredibly hard to reason with him and reach out to him, all to no
    avail.

    Why should we (I write this as a Charismatic) listen to someone who in Jesus’ words is blaspheming the Holy Spirit (Matt 12:24-32), divisively attacking Jesus’ Church (1 Cor 3:17), accusing the brothers (Rev 12:10) and resisting the Holy Spirit (Acts 7:51)?

    While us Charismatics look for respectability and acceptance, don’t you think there is a danger that instead of Gospel-centred people becoming Spirit empowered; rather Charismatics will simply be assimiliated into the non-Charismatic world? (Judging by the hostile comments it seems so)

    I would be interested to hear what you have to say about that…

  • http://www.mompreneurmogul.com/ Lisa Cash Hanson

    Adrian I wouldn’t fight people who criticize you. It’s really wasted energy. I say this for my own benefit too.

    There is much work to be done and many lives waiting. For those of us who know how wonderful the Holy Spirit is, obviously with forces like this we know the end is near. I would focus on the lives who need and want the Holy Spirit.

    I’ve decided not to say a word against this man- I will say the HOLY Spirit He does fill people today. He always does. Healings do happen and the only deception happening is that someone is telling Christians He doesn’t.

    To me that is the biggest injustice to the Holy Spirit. But He doesn’t need me to defend HIM because all of Heaven backs everything He does :) I can tell you from first hand experience He’s been amazing. I’ve seen Him change lives and hearts as they are filled and pray in other tongues. It’s wonderful.

  • Vanessa

    For 20 years I worshiped under the Charismatic movement. Fought tooth and nail against those who dare soil the movement. Talked in tongues and believed God spoke to me directly. Bound the devil in my prayers. Till slowly the scales on my eyes began to be removed. The Holy Spirit gently showed me the error in this movement and yes it all began by me listening to John Mcaurthur. I was angry when I first herd what he said but because I had begun to see the cracks in my church (Rhema South Africa) that I began to question. I dont speak in tongues, I don’t bind Satan and I don’t think God speaks to me directly but only through his word and the Holy Spirit guides who me in all truth. I study the word all day everyday and I have an amazing relationship with God. The tongues issue did not fall away immediately till one night as I was talking in tongues I suddenly realised I did not understand what I was saying to God. Common sense kicked in and I cringed as I realised I had been putting it on all these years. It was not a heavily prayer language it was empty words. Now I speak English to God as I want to know what I say to my Heavenly Father just as I want to know what I say to my darling Husband whom I love dearly. Image going to your loved ones speaking Gibbly Garb. It never built up my faith as i had been told. Instead what builds my faith up now is trusting in God daily for my needs and health. I now check out all that I hear from man and my Bible is always opened on my desk. 20 years ago God said to me through his word “Come out of her”. I listened and I came out and I am so blessed. Thank you Jesus for for calling me out and thank you for using John Mcaurthur as an instrument to show me my error.

  • Manny Reyes

    Just think! Use your brain and search the Scriptures! Also, more importantly, pray to God (the Father and Lord of Jesus Christ) for discernment – wisdom. He will give you the thought you need. As for me, I am safe swimming in the shore of the Scriptures. It is too unsafe in the deep ocean of continuationism. The Scripture is enough for my Salvation, my Faith, and my Sanctification among others. No need for SWMs.

  • Tom

    MacArthur is a very unpleasant chap, he build his whole ministry on correcting others. If ever a man needed to look at the log in his own eye…

  • Kevin

    I can’t understand why charismatic would even care to discuss this issue with a man who’s says “nothing good has come out of the movement”. There are always people who have hangups about the supernatural power of God. Who cares.. I encourage my Charismatic brothers and sister to keep preaching the FULL gospel message as the Apostle did it, with signs and wonders following and keep healing the sick and let the self appointed theologians of our time discuss these issues amongst themselves.. There will always be skeptical people that don’t believe in the supernatural.. Leave it to God to work His work in the lives of people.. McArthur theology is not flawless nor does he understands every thing biblical.. GO talk to the people who live in this realm, the people that see the miracles that we read about in the bible.. Dont waste your time with these witch hunters.. there are too many serious issues today confronting the church, likethe homosexual agenda which is the main issue today, and how its waging a war against the word of GOD.. PS.. I am always amazed at the so called Bible theologians view on the scripture about blaspheming the spirit.. Whenever they talk about this verse they always step outside of the rules that they so call use to interpret scripture.. This is one of the most clearest text written.. Context rules..Jesus made this comment in response to the Pharisees calling the supernatural power of God in demonstration, the work of the devil.. Yet when i hear these people teach on this scripture they never say this… The reason is because they do this very same thing all the time..calling the power of God the work of the devil…. If Mc Arthur and his followers believe the gifts and signs and wonder are not for today, so what?!!! God uses weak thing to confound the wise. We see it all through scripture.

  • Keith

    There is something that I thought about as I read this. Many of us as followers of Christ who agree with charismatic teachings believe that Ephesians 6, the statement of “For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.” v.12-ESV, is not a figurative but a literal call to spiritual arms in prayer; such strong cessationist stances ignore the fact that there are those around us who would seek to harm Christians in whatever way they can, especially those who follow occult practices. Simply intellectualizing such practices as superstitious does not dispel the power behind them. The only thing that does dispel that power is the name of Jesus.

  • spearbearer1 .

    Adrian, I hope that you are not being intentionally dishonest. MacArthur is calling out the unbiblical, heretical leaders in the Charismatic movement. If that is not you then stop applying it to yourself. Just this evening he shared with his congregation that he married a woman saved in a Charismatic church. I don’t know how much more can be said to oppose what you are accusing him of.

  • Yes

    I am a former Calvinist and devoted a large part of my life to understanding teaching the defense of Calvinism. The Lord delivered me from that at 55, just as Catholics, or any other false religion. I believe there are Christians in Calvinism and Catholicism. Calvinists do have better understanding of salvation. There is also little difference with the Charismatics and other churches. All are impacted by the apostasy that we are in and really do not have a clue how far into the apostasy we really are. Jesus said that when he returns. will he find faith on the earth? Most believers do not realize the seriousness of Jesus’ words.

    FOR CRYING OUT LOUD. MACARTHUR SAYS YOU CAN TAKE THE MARK OF THE BEAST AND REPENT LATER! Yet, just as the Charismanics keep following false teachers, so do,MacArthur’s followers. They will defend him as he mocks the gifts of the Holy Spirit and denial of tongues IN THE FACE OF Paul’s command NOT TO forbid the speaking in tongues”.

    MacArthur literally denies the Word of God and still has a large following. Brothers and sisters, most people are lost. Narrow is the way. Much of these debates are between believers who will perish, hearing Jesus say “I never knew you”. These teachers have NO accountability. You have no clue who MacArthur and the false teachers really are. Satan appears as an angel of light. Do you really think we can have large churches that preach the truth when it is a time of apostasy? Watch out for your own soul and those of your families. DO NOT LOOK TO TEACHERS WHO HAVE GOTTEN RICH ON THE SHEEP AND GOATS.

    Humble yourself. Get before the Lord and plead with him to open your eyes as to the truth. For years I went slowly, line by line through the New Testament, challenging myself as to whether I believed what was written and was it evident in my life that I believed what was written. The Lord showed my I did not believe what He said, but what my teachers had taught me. You need to change translations when you do this, as your mind will read over it without thinking. It will be a war. I used God’s Word translation and constantly went back to the KJV to verify passages. God Bless.

  • Dennis Richardson

    Kenneth Copeland has disobeyed the Holy Spirit, the same Holy Spirit that directed Peter and Paul to write criticisms of fithy lucre, the fithy lucre that Copeland practices. Peter in 1 Peter 5: 2 and Paul in 1 Timothy 3: 3. The future will show Copeland to be a Freemason.

    Let me invite you to banned me from this web site as I have been by Joseph Farah of World Net Daily. My comment to him, that the CNP is controlled by the CFR.

  • bloomingdedalus

    Pentecostalism is just an adaptation of African Voodoo – there’s nothing remotely Christian about it. There are no words for incompetence in parenting so deep that someone would put their children through this as I was put through it.

    • cowboybob

      I am no expert on this issue (I am rancher), but I have thought about this somewhat. I think that mentally ill people are attracted to Pentecostalism because of its irrationality and also because Pentecostalism condones insane and inappropriate behavior such as screaming, shouting, running, wailing, hopping, and other such things where insane people could fit right in and indulge their theatrics for attention. I think a large proportion of Pentecostal preachers are mentally ill also, given that the overwhelming majority of them are uneducated, and that there is no requirement for rigorous scholarship to become a Pentecostal “minister.” I understand that the level of education one has is not a determinant of mental illness, and that intelligent people can also be mentally ill; I am just speaking in general terms and general trends.

      I also believe, based upon my studies, that Pentecostals and many Ex-Pentecostals who have not had appropriate therapy, suffer from Post Traumatic Stress Disorder. You will find many Pentecostals suffering PTSD symptoms as follows: stomach ulcers, depression, disassociation, troubled sleep, irritability and outbursts, difficulty concentrating or remembering, hypervigilance (like extreme paranoia), exaggerated startle responses, etc.

      I encourage all who are interested in PTSD to get “The Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder Sourcebook,” by Glenn R. Schiraldi. It is available on Amazon and I have a copy, of which I have found great use.

  • Breckmin

    I attended Grace Community for years and John MacArthur is my former pastor. John taught that the Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit was a First Century sin committed by the Pharisees (in that Jesus was saying that the Pharisees were hopeless because they were seeing His miracles/signs and still blaspheming) so it makes no sense to me that John would be saying that anyone today is committing an unforgivable sin. I think what we have here is a misinterpretation of the phrase “where are the people rising up in protest against the abuse and the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit?” The abuse and blasphemy here is not talking about the unpardonable sin that Jesus was referring to but rather John is saying that sins against the Holy Spirit are being committed in a different way…. why aren’t more pastors speaking out against this chaos and abuse? sort of questioning. For the record, I do not personally agree with John’s position on the historical blasphemy of the Holy Spirit (exactly) nor am I a cessationist. I DO agree with “most” of his criticism of specific theologies being taught by Pentecostals that are being examined and discussed at the Strange Fire conferences. John is a humble servant of the Lord when you talk with him personally and there is no one living that I have more respect for (no matter how much we disagree on peripheral theology). John is doing an important work here for the Lord out of his love for the church and out of his love for Jesus. He is asking for accountability which is needed (much needed) in the charismatic movement.

    • Breckmin

      Bottom line: He wasn’t talking about THE B.o.t.H.S. or the “unforgivable sin” so this whole line of criticism is pretty much incongruous to his statements. Of all the people I have observed in this lifetime…. John MacArthur walks the talk the most consistently. His knowledge of the N.T. fills his mind and heart up with the Word of God and that enables him to live an authentic Christian life. If you understood what he meant and where he is coming from… you might be able to find more common ground with his criticism of aberrational practices in the charismatic movement/denominations (not all of them…but clearly some of them).

  • Citizen99

    If your only complaint is that MacArthur is picking “secondary” versus “primary” issues to complain about, you’re argument against him is weak. It seems he is correct. The man knows his bible. That you downplay the way the HG is used in the Charismatic movement because you fill it’s a minor offense to God….does not jive with scripture. God takes blasheming the HG very seriously…according to scripture. I suggest you do also.

  • eric

    John macrthur says blasphemy agsent the holy spirit is a final rejection of Jesus.

  • Chris Dagostino

    I don’t portend to be able to literally see spirits the way Christ did, so I don’t know if it’s the Holy Spirit or an entirely different spirit working through those who speak in tongues. If the cessationists are wrong, it could very well be the former; if they’re right, then it stands to reason that it could be the latter. Since there are intelligent men in the Church who make strong cases for and against Cessationism, I just kinda throw my hands up and say, “Come whatever may.”

    The Pentesmatic denomination is comprised of hundreds of millions of believers, so I hope for their sake that those gifts of the Spirit haven’t ceased.

  • TheQuandarer

    I realize I’m a day late and a dollar short on this issue, but I understand “blaspheming the Holy Spirit” to mean that someone attributes the work of the Holy Spirit to Satan. Am I right? If so, MacArthur essentially has his theology backwards.

    • Dominic D

      You are absolutely right. And that man is leading Christians away from the true work of Holy Spirit because he doesnt understand and probably has never asked God about it or he answered his own prayer rather than waiting on the Lord

      1 Corinthians 2:14 KJV

      But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

  • Darin

    Why can’t Christians get along? Don’t you see that the world is looking on? Doesn’t the Lord say to turn the other cheek? All of the debates and the conflicts and the arguments between the churches just causes more confusion to the gospel. Do we not know where confusion comes from? Certainly not from God….God forbid!! We must pray for those who oppose or oppress the gospel and never let them see anything but the Love of God…..do not accept the ways of the world but do not take offence when you hear someone make accusations or give you reasons to believe the way they do……your life should line up with the holy scriptures and that is it. Do what the Lord commands and you will have fulfilled the law of God……this is the free gift of salvation to mankind if we trust in the Lord and believe that he is the Savior of our life and we turn from our wicked ways and crucify the flesh, take up our cross and follow him……..do not fight and argue and debate over the church beliefs because the world is watching and they see and know everything you do. Christians are an example of Christ…..who are you representing?

  • Miguel Pereira

    Many people wonder what the “unforgivable sin against the Holy Spirit” is. In the original Greek the word sin here is “blasphemos”, which in Greek means a “profanation”, an exposure of special knowledge.
    It is obvious that in the universe everything is trying to run down to undifferentiate into nothingness, or some are being built up by that which is running down. Our person is a closed circuit in the arising reticular formation of the medulla oblongata of the brain.
    Whatever undifferentiates this circuit causes pleasure. Ultimately it can undifferentiate into nothingness. There is a veil in the brain which veils the great satisfaction of deep sleep and other common causes of unconsciousness. Pleasures override this veil.
    There is a secret sound, called the “lost word” which gives you moments of near nonexistence. If the nonexistence was total you would remain permanently nonexistent. This sound is the cylindrical sound. It induces other closed circuits which, by the attraction of confluency, causes the personal closed circuit some undifferentiation, which is that euphoria called “nirvana”. The “lost word” bypasses that veil, and shows that nonexistence will be the total satisfaction of all desires.
    There is a Hebrew word, which is called “onomatopoeic”, which means that it sounds like that which is described. It is the “lost word”, which means a “well”, a hollow cylinder, spelled “aleph yod nun”, translated, “ain”, but pronounced “eyennn…, like the German word for one, “ein”.
    Ain also means nothingness, that which is sampled by paying attention to this sound; and an eye, and a ring. When meditating upon this sound you will also see inside your closed eyelids concentric rings, like an eye, with black in the middle, then around that, rings of violet, blue, green, yellow, orange, red, and outside that, brown.
    Knowing that the satisfaction from undifferentiation into nonexistence is infinitely greater than any possible joy of a billionaire, is the special secret of the Holy Spirit. In the one substance, energy, motion can only be in closed circuitry, that there be something to move out of the way and fill in behind. Everything is ultimately composed of closed circuits.
    The true opposite polarities are the direction of this circuitry: counterclockwise (male) on one side, and, clockwise (female) on the other side. The iron in the cytochromes of every cell are magnetically polarized, facing out, counterclockwise in males, and, clockwise in females.
    Undifferentiation of circuits by the undifferentiation provided by confluency (counterclockwise and clockwise are confluent when face to face) is polarity cancellation. A very fast polarity cancellation rate is fire. A fast polarity cancellation rate is identical with a fast entropy production rate, which is an analogue of velocity in mechanics, and likewise, but without the gravitational component, accesses globally bent timespace. The Underworld is in globally bent timespace.
    So, those who “know where it’s at”, know the secret of the Holy Spirit, don’t want immortality. They are “unforgivable” for they don’t want to be forgiven. They want to delve into the Lake of Fire for the orgy into permanent nonexistence, the eternal satisfaction of all desires.

    • Brokenit

      What a lot of complete rubbish !

  • Timothy Law

    What MacArthur’s doing/has done is not surprising. He’s not condemning those who love God in the movement. Simply, it’s that the movement is not required for whatever good Christians have done, whether some identified with that movement or not. Because those good deeds are done out of the credit of non-charismatic movements, though not denying God as the source. But MacArthur and I would not agree that some Charismatic movement has any credit – if so, it is still from non-charismatic.
    Much can still be said. But as I said before, not a surprising thing by MacArthur. There are giant movements from the East (Asia) that have been emphasizing that which is similar to StrangeFire for a while now. Glad to see America has caught on a bit.

  • Lamar Carnes

    The problem is very much deeper than you are indicating. Paul the Apostle, states so clearly that the most important aspect of the Christian life is “LOVE”, not only love toward God, but love toward our fellow saints, even as the Apostle John so indicated in his short epistles. In fact, if we do not “love” the brethren who we can see how can we love God who we cannot see, so says John! And Paul speaks of the gifts of the Spirit which were being give by God to the saints in the Churches, but the message he spoke was to specifically the Corinthian Christians. They were out of order on all of these gifts issues in terms of improper teaching on the subject as well as misuse of the same. He states clearly that the most important gift anyone can have is to be able to preach the Gospel, prophesy (tell forth) the word of God to others. And in fact, just on the issue of one particular gift (languages) he states he would rather speak I a “language” people understood than having abilities to speak in all known languages. It is to bad that translators have always used the Greek term glossolalia into the English term tongues when in fact it means language. Then h speaks about NOT every person has the same gift and each has a different gift. And not only that, but GOD is the controller of a gift and by His discretion and at the time and place and person gives various gifts. So He may give a gift or He may not! He may withhold gift or gifts for multitudes of years if He so chooses. He has done that before. For 400 years folks did not hear from God on one occasion. He is in charge and not a Church or a Pastor or an individual. Yes, one can pray for God to bless with a gift but God may or may not give it. So, to be dogmatic that ALL of the gifts have to be functional in the Church all the time and everyone having the same gift also at any given time and season, is unbiblical and false teachings. I NEVER heard one true and factual person speak in a known language on this earth as a gifted ability like what took place on Pentcost and I have searched and searched and listened and waited for now 50 years and never can find one. It is time to go forward in faith and preach Christ to the lost and get busy building up the saints in the faith and exercise the gifts that we have that are authentic and observable and factual. Love, helps, preaching Christ, teaching the word of God, being kind, helping orphans and widows, giving, sharing, praying for others, sharing one anothers burdens, etc.! Yes, we pray for the sick and ill, and many times God heals folks, but many times He doesn’t, do it the way we would wish and it is not immediate. Many times folks die and it isn’t because they lack faith or the prayer hasn’t faith, but God hasn’t chosen to do so, for He wishes to take the person home to glory. Immature people get caught up in these things and do not move to maturity in the faith. They stay hung up on labels, and incorrect doctrine and preach things so strange it is totally heretical and not sustainable by the scriptures. John is much more closer to the truth that the Pentecostals will ever be and I was ONCE one of them. I know first hand. John would never say God can’t do something in the areas of miracles or a special gift display when He wishes, but John, as well as the major Church Fathers, recognized that God was not doing He hone in the beginning days of Christ and the Apostles. And remember GOD is in charge of the gifts and not people or preachers. If HE doesn’t give it no amount of wishing, hoping, and demanding will avail, and until HE does people need to quit mis-representing God on the matter! Blame toward a person or the person claiming a gift and it not function by saying they just did not have enough faith, is foolish and wrong. God doesn’t make mistakes and if He has given a gift it will function and one will know it and so will everyone else. Let’s move away from these side-line issues which keep Christians mixed up and apart, by following the word more carefully and not our own personal desires or feelings.

  • susan johnson

    I agree with some of the statements that John Macarthur made in his discussion on the charismatics but not everything. Also, no one can bind satan, only God has the power to do that. Satan is so much powerful than mankind, so anytime we need help against his deceitfulness, and lies, God Almighty is the only one who can help through our prayers. So I do agree with JM also on that. Lots of false teachings that go against scripture is being taught leading the flock astray. This binding satan is another practice in the churches where pastors are mis-leading people to do. JM is just pointing out all the errors, so that the church can be more aware and discerning of false teachers and practices that go against scripture.

  • Ajit Perera

    Adrian, you have to admit that the heresies of the New Wave/Charismatic movement are horrendous and plethora. It is true, isn’t it, that they do attribute to the Holy Spirit things He has not said; things that are clearly extra biblical and frighteningly New Age, things that He has never revealed; constructs of the preacher’s own mind and hermeneutic and a reflection of his/her materialistic desires. Have these actions and words not been amply documented by Christian authors and even secular sources? Is this NOT an insulting of the Holy Spirit? Is this NOT a feeding into His mouth things He has never said or even wanted said, judging by the context of the Scriptures? Is this not a terribly dangerous thing to do and should not those who hold to the faith once for all given in His Word and to the utter inerrancy and infallibility of the Scriptures point this out and rebuke these aberrations out of love for God and one’s neighbour?

  • Fredrik Hahn

    John McArthur is a great speaker. Maybe that is why people listen to him? He sounds wonderful but the content is so militaristic.

    We have never heard of or seen any ‘assault on the Holy Spirit’ in any church in 40 years or even read about one.

    The only thing I have seen that may be close is people that have not been baptized in the Holy Spirit criticizing Spirit-filed believers because they don’t have the power of God in their lives. It seems maybe John has the religious spirit of the pharisees to deal with?

  • https://juliadaybydaydotcom.wordpress.com/wp-admin/ Julia L. Baumann

    All I know is that …….[MOD: REDACTED AS ACCUSES MACARTHUR of wrongdoing, something that is banned from these comments see the Comment Policy]…responsible for an erroneous interpretation of the Gospel.

  • https://juliadaybydaydotcom.wordpress.com/wp-admin/ Julia L. Baumann

    It is ironic John does not even realize his own blasphemy when he judges people. We blasphemy the Holy Spirit when we sin against creation conceived by the breath of God in what we think, say and do. It reminds me of Lucifer who wanted to make himself like the Most High. This pride of being a judge of others is the very blasphemy John condemns. This thinking seems subtle and yet is so glaring as to make me turn away from the theology John teaches.

  • https://juliadaybydaydotcom.wordpress.com/wp-admin/ Julia L. Baumann

    John MacArthur also thinks making a linguistic comparison between the ancient Hebrew Chaldee and Aramaic languages is heresy. For example the words used for God in Chaldee Genesis 1 and the word used for God in Aramaic John 1 are almost identical. He does not seem to realize that Greek philosophy that permeates the rhetoric of the New Testament conflicts with the message. I realize part of the point is the juxtaposition of the political allusions in rhetoric of the translation but he should explicitly state this when he teaches.

  • john mancini

    John is a good guy but he does not know what he thinks he knows.
    The bigger abuse of the Gifts of the Spirit is not teaching them today and denouncing them as “not for today”.
    John the Baptist came announcing” Behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world”. He NEVER followed that up with ” believe my baptism and reject His (Jesus’s) baptism.
    Isn’t it a tragedy., only to teach only the baptism (repenetance and water) of John and reject the baptism of the Lamb of God. See Acts 18:24 to the end where Priscilla and Acquila rebuke Apollos for teaching only the baptism of John and Acts 19:1-6 where Paul’s is furious with Apollos.

  • john mancini

    If the Apostle Paul were to come to your church pulpit, would he be permitted to read his words from every book he has written without your pastors trying to correct him? Would he be able to read 1 Cor and 2 Cor without some degrading commentary from your intellectual pastor who thinks he knows more than Paul?
    I personally think the Apostle Paul would be thrown out and deemed a charismatic wacko from 75% of the churches in America. I would hope yours or mine isn’t one of them.

  • Bobby Gilbert

    The problem with the horse riders is they represent the Spirit. The Horses have already arrived and one is running. It is a 50 year count to 50 year count. It is like a 50 day count to a 50 day count. One week has 7 years. One week has 7 days plus one, the 8th day. Explanation will not happen here. Keep in mind the 50 divided by 3 1/2 comes up around a 14 for a day count. A normal day count has 12 hours.
    The White Horse – Jesus Movement highest point 1972 – Jesus enters Jerusalem
    The Black Horse – Sin – Abortion-Marraige-Post Modern – Jesus cleanses temple
    The Red Horse – Join to – Do you see it? – The Question about John
    The Pale Horse – Death

    We are in what is called the 2nd Pentecost. We are heading towards the 2nd Resurrection which will be seven years and can be understood by the seven years or the metaphor of the 2 witnesses.

    Have fun figuring this out. Begin with understanding the names of Rachel’s children in birth order and name. Read the incident in Shechem. You will better understand Jacob’s trouble as well.

    Understand the Passion Week. It is the Passion Paradigm. Peace

  • Bobby Gilbert

    The Adopted are up next. For people who like dates, 2020 is the date SEPA has planned to accomplish their goals. BRICS is countering the control. I guess everyone knows who the World Bank is.

    If you don’t understand how a currency can be introduced, read up on the Euro. You will know when the middle of the week is coming. If you see the middle of the week, the first day has come and gone. I don’t know how the rapture works after you reach that point. I do know that we will be called to pray like Jesus in the garden. After the garden, the middle of the week starts for the 2nd Resurrection.

    If you are figuring this out, you can see how one week, Tribulation, can cause so much confusion for two weeks. Jacob does not confuse his weeks when he fulfills them for his wives, Leah and Rachel. Laban had us pretty fooled.

    15 weeks with 70 works . . . 11 weeks are complete. 2 weeks are running and are almost done. 2 weeks to come. One is probably running, the 2nd Pentecost. One remains, the 2nd resurrection.

    The week which holds these weeks together for our sake is the Passion Week, The Passion Paradigm. Shavuot!

  • Rickyjay58

    Preach Christ crucified! All else is arguing over meat sacrificed to idols. The accuser is made happy when the body is rent.

  • Copacetic Coleman

    I can appreciate your position, but you don’t use biblical support for your argument. You can easily say, “I really feel that is again going too far.” It takes a bit more to actually apply scripture to support your response here. You also rely on inflammatory remarks like the title of this article to appeal to people on an emotional level rather than on a spiritual, or even logical, level.

  • Stephen Sponsler

    Adrian, he is correct, though this can be EQUALLY as true in any church, it is only more readily apparent in those particualr congregations that have a vice for sensationalism and emotionality which is not OF the Spirit, then at times for instances can be a reuslt of It. Most in these movements are putting the cart before the horse, ‘thinking’ themselves righteous by good deeds and bible reading when in the end none of that matters ultimately. A person can have the entire bible memorized and preach a sermon and still be totally unchanged by God. Only God knows in the end. A child of God who has Truly Be Transformed and walking The Way of Christ with discernment (One of the gifts) will readily see the fallacies arising like red flags before a hurricane approaches. I don’t know that this movement actually is taking the ‘country by storm’ but if it is, we are in a very dangerous position as it leaves open for scrutiny those of unbelief. It simply is not credible. Additionally, being ‘filled with the spirit’ is a farce. There is no such thing as a stand alone..what spirit is it? even satan (or that which is not God but appears to be godly at its best) masquerades as an angel of light and can appear and ‘feel totally godly good and warm. What better deception that to think one is in Christ when they are knocking on the doors of hell. MacArhtur is pointing out the opposite and going to extra measures to make a point since it appears so many are so willing to go to the opposite extreme and neglect Truth; the Grace based movement falls right into the ranks of the same ideology completely neglecting the Wrath of God. Isn’t it like that though with so many things? The pendulum swings back and forth, one then the other to balance out but has no Center in the Light. JOY is not an emotion but the Nature of the Light of Christ in the Life of God. In attempts to avoid suffering as a form of instruction and obedience, the whole movement seeks to avoid it and in doing so , is avoiding God in the process (that is a broad statement, and not meant to be taken as an over-generalization) I don’t think MacArthur is over-generalizing, he has made a point to not over-imply that. I just finished watching his two video series on YouTube about Deceived Christians referring to Matthew 7: 21-27. A person who merely walks into a church and starts praising God never having Truly been transformed is blaspheming the Works of the Holy Spirit by chicanery…’that person’..not all persons. This tongues movement has got to end. Paul himself said it would go away, and never once does anyone ever interpret them, without interpretation how does one even know what they are saying? How do they not know they are speaking out for a demon? What value is it. Paul spoke of that as well. It is also though a good thing we are keeping tabs on each other in all regards, but I do fear ‘those movements’ as they are referred to opens the doors to all forms of deception. Frankly, it isn’t honest. Oh, I read that additioanl statement added from John’s words. he is correct. The Holy Spirit DOES NOT plant thoughts in our heads nor give us emotions. This ‘planting of the word of God” or Seed of Faith movement is founded, it’s foundation is based on falsity. You’ve referred to is so will use as an example. ,Mark 4:13 “And he said unto them, Know ye not this parable? and how then will ye know all parables?”
    Jesus is saying that if you don’t understand this parable you won’t understand any of the parables he taught. This is a foundational teaching friends, we need to get it Right or the rest is a house built on sand. Misapplying the parable of the sower does great damage to Gods people. First, by falsely claiming that God works like some kind of cosmic slot machine. But the real damage is in the fact that believers are robbed of the true meaning of this teaching.
    The parable of the sower is at work every time Gods Word is Revealed to they who have Eyes that See and Hears to Hear through Revelation and/or a sense of Spiritual intuition. In fact it is at work right now in many of you who are reading this. I know that many of you will read this and say “I don’t believe that. I don’t believe that my favorite preacher would preach a false message” You’ll reject what I’m saying. You’ll actually be rejecting the words of Jesus. The devil has come already to steal this word . Some of will hear and say and receive it gladly. “ Glory to God” …. Hallelujah ” But won’t take the time to really meditate on this word and apply it. And then a testing will come. Testing because of the word sown in your heart. A test to see if you really believe, trust in, rely on, adhere to what you claim to believe. You’ll be challenged. God Himself will allow that challenge, that test.Will you pass the test? Or will you revert back to your traditional thinking?And of course some of you will hear and believe but you won’t give this word the proper place in your life. You’ll think about it for a while. You’ll decide that it’s right but then you’ll get on with your life. You’ll get busy with your job, your family, your daily responsibilities and it will recede further and further into the recesses of your heart until it has no real value to you.And the cares of this world and the deceitfulness of riches will have choked the truth out of your heart. But there is more, what are we to do once the word is Received into the heart. This is where it can get to the Ugly side of the Truth. When it is received that is when one will see how ungodly one has always been! This calls for the next side of Repentance, dying on the cross; He who loves his life will lose ti, and he who loses this life (his life) on account of Me will Find It”. A truly repentant person of their very life will have turned away from earthy sensationalism and emotionalism seeking preferences. In some ways, it’s glorifying ones self and not God. The wisdom of God is Justified in and by His Children.

    This is not to imply however sum total, that many are not in Christ, they just have yet to break out of the shell and bear true fruit. It’s but a sad state of affairs, ‘Carnal” (Cain) Christians. Judging others in the light of these words does not help matters at all and might even make them worse, I’m well aware of that. maybe everyone needs to take some time to sit down and actually THINK and wrestling with God like Jacob and get to the root of their core issues rather than struggling to avoid them. But, we cannot judge personalities…God isn’t set out to change personalities so much as our character. I see no humility in any of these man-created doctrinal movements which we are told to avoid. Doctrines of men. This movement didn’t exist 1000 years ago…that is why it’s called a movement.

    You will know them by the fruit they bear…and the fruit of these so-called ‘movements’ which shouldn’t exist in the first place as then stemmed from sensational seeking people to begin with is frightening. Look at the history and go back to how it all started, it’s not pretty. For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart. And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are open and laid bare to the eyes of Him with whom we have to do.

  • Dominic D

    An example of True Blasphemy of Holy Spirit is a person looking at a human being who is healing others, speaking in other tongues, in a trance, vision, or doing other supernatural things, AND then calling that spirit inside them to be demonic. That’s what really breaks His heart. You can be possessed by spirits, evil or good, yet there is only ONE who is Good. God is Spirit (John 4:24)
    Jesus, living as a man was Filled with that same Holy Spirit, which is still God. It was through the Holy Spirit that the miracles were done, not by flesh, but God working Through the flesh. John MacArthur has the wrong view on charismatics and refuses to believe you can receive the Holy Spirit in that manner. Holy Spirit is tangible. It is not whipped up emotion, or euphoria. It is God himself touching your soul. That is maybe why he did not receive the Holy Spirit, because he never believed or understood what Holy Spirit is; He’s a spirit but the spirit of GOD, here, on earth. The heavens were opened when Jesus was baptised, no where in scripture has it ever closed. I have a problem with people who ‘add’ another New Testament to the bible so-to-speak, teaching people specific parts of the bible are no longer active and we no longer have access to the things that happened in the book of acts. Prove it! You can’t. The NT is still active for today, and the book of Acts is evidence of it. I suggest to read the scripture below, great stuff to support what pentecostals or charismatics believe. Either way, I prefer them to be refererenced as just Christians. :) God bless.

    Matthew 21:22
    John 3:5-6
    *1 Corinthians 2:14
    Acts 19:1-7

    • Dominic D

      The things of the spiritual realm are of value. Thieves counterfeit things of value. That’s why the enemy took it! It’s of great value, and these things are being made known to the body of Christ more and more.

      1 Corinthians 2:14 KJV

      But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

  • cowboybob

    The Pentecostals that are tongue talkers are simply deluded. It is not a language. It is not “blasphemy”, it is just childish nonsense. They are children and should be treated as such. I know that John takes himself too serious at times(I did not say that he is a Pharisee), but a person has to pick his battles. If the Pentecostals want to be super extroverts and display “holy laughter” and strange behavior, that is their liberty. Some people are turned off by their boisterous juvenile behavior, so they can go to Lutheran church.

  • cowboybob

    In browsing some Pentecostal websites with pictures of gatherings and meetings, I was struck by a strange sight of obesity. Now, we all know that some people are fat or bubbly somewhat.
    However, when it gets to the point of not being able to perform basic functions without undue stress, I think we need to take a closer look at what is going on. Are these people just a little big large or are they gluttons at the table,
    consuming food like wild hogs? Are they having some medical problems, or do
    they have a problem with self-control? And, let me be clear that I probably
    have been guilty of this myself.

    Traditionally, one can commit gluttony in several ways, according to Thomas
    Aquinas (reference Wikipedia):

    (1) Eating too soon

    (2) Eating too expensively

    (3) Eating too much

    (4) Eating too eagerly

    (5) Eating too daintily

    (6) Eating wildly

    Now, look at this list again, and tell me that Pentecostals regularly violate
    several of these guidelines. I would say I have always seen Pentecostal
    meetings where they (a) Eat too soon, (b) Eat too much, (c) Eat too eagerly,
    and (d) Eat wildly. I was among Pentecostals recently, and I was struck by
    something I never noticed before: they were devouring their food as would a
    hungry dog or a hog. Being away from that crowd for several years, and seeing
    this activity struck me as memorable.

    What is wrong with all this gluttonous behavior? Who is being harmed? Well, in
    most ethical systems, we are taught how to be good to others, but also we learn
    forms of self-control because an extreme lack of self-control in one area
    almost always signals a moral problem in many other areas. It is an outward
    sign of an inward disorder. Why do we become gluttons? Are we substituting food
    for socializing? Are we substituting food for not confronting undesirable
    situations (cowardice). Are we eating because we are lonely? Are we devouring
    food because we lack meaning and spirituality in our lives (I think this is the
    piece de resistance, myself)?

    Also, think about the prohibition of alcohol among some of the more extreme
    fundamentalists. Well, do they prohibit and police gluttony? Well, drunkenness
    is only a subset of gluttony! What is drunkenness? Consuming too much alcohol
    to the point of neglecting our duties. Again, lack of self-control is the key.

    What do you remember about the hoggish consumption of food in your Pentecostal experience?

  • Howard Gardner

    I posted the following question on John MacArthur’s website: “If spiritual gifts have ceased then it seems that you and I must now be seeing face to face while the Apostle Paul saw only through a glass darkly. Would that not make the Bible obsolete?” The answer I got totally ignored the question and drifted towards ridiculing Benny Hinn – I gather Mac doesn’t like his haircut. Eventually a woman from his church chimed in “You aren’t answering his question.” Afterwards I was blocked from posting any further on the site and I suspect she was as well.

    • Brokenit

      Yes, I also noticed the straw man argument is constantly used to malign the gifts of the Spirit instead of addressing questions in relation to Scripture. It is amazing that people who profess to be preaching sound doctrine refuse to reason from the Scriptures.

  • Evangelina Vigilantee

    Well, I hate to break it to you but he is a wolf. J.M. has also claimed that it is okay to take the mark of the beast and still be ‘saved,’ when this will land you in hell according to the bible. From that point on I tossed him out.

  • Evangelina Vigilantee

    I totally agree, I received the baptism of the Holy Spirit and gifts, (but not speaking in tongues). That is totally biblical and current. The bible says when that which is perfect has come the gifts will cease, but it goes on to describe ‘perfect’ as being with God in heaven, face to face, when the gifts are no longer needed. They argue that ‘perfect’ is the closed canon, but that is not in the bible. Then… come all the ones who, if they don’t think the gifts have ceased, they think that the only proof of this baptism is tongues, but not all get this gift. I got the baptism but not that gift. (see 1 Corinthians 12-14). Then, when I do talk about this baptism, due to all the confusion, all they can picture is senseless babble, when all I did was say I got the baptism (and not that gift, but others). That gift is real and some get it, but there are many who never had the real baptism of the Holy Spirit and just ‘fake it’ as regards the gift of tongues and talk nonsense babble to ‘prove it’ to others. I have also seen the real gift in action. Then… I constantly run into the ones who think the gifts have ceased and when I talk about these things, they accuse it of being some demonic occult based activity. Now that IS blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. They don’t even know and they call it the devil. I think of when they accused Jesus of performing miracles by the power of demons. Not a good idea…

  • Jim Lopinto

    ( From ” God’s ” Dutch Uncle ” & Bible Myth Buster on Face Book )

    What ever happened to SCRIPTURE ( rightly divided ) to Prove Doctrine with ? In most of these Posts , I see RELIGIOUS OPINIONS , I’m really getting tired , of hearing OPINIONS , with NO SCRIPTURES to back them up !

    In GOD’S sight , Religious Opinion , has about as much Authority , as a Non – Christian’s statement of unbelief , in the Bible being God’s Word !

    CHRISTIANS , of ALL Denominations , need to RETURN to THUS SAYS THE LORD
    & tell GOD’S OPINION ( Rightly Divided Scripture ) instead of their Own !
    ” Wisdom , is the Principle thing , therefore , get WISDOM ” ( Book of Proverbs )
    ” If any man thinks he knows anything , he knows NOTHING YET , as he ought to Know it . ” ( 1 Corinthians 8 vs . 2 )
    ( From a Former Catholic , Former Traditional Pentecostal , & now Charismatic / Pentecostal since 1985 – Bible School graduate , & Ordained Minister – age 67 . )
    Please study GOD’S PLAN FOR MAN by Finis Dake ( 1,000 page Bible study book , in which Dake studied the Bible for 75, 000 hours , BEFORE writing this book ! He was a True SCRIPTORIAN / MENTOR , as was KENNETH HAGIN ( dispite all of the Anti _ Charismatic Opinions ! ) WAKE UP , PEOPLE !

  • Jon Davis

    When he said all this, he did the original blasphemy. Remember that the role of the pharisees in itself was a good and proper role, it was only their attitudes and twisted views that made them out of line.

    Matthew 12:22 (sort of NIV but John MacArthurized because I personally think the shoe fits)
    Then they brought him a demon-possessed man who was blind and mute, and
    Jesus healed him, so that he could both talk and see. 23 All the people
    were astonished and said, “Could this be the Son of David?”

    24
    But when John MacArthur heard this, he said, “It is only by Beelzebul,
    the prince of demons, that this fellow drives out demons.”

    25
    Jesus knew his thoughts and said to him, “Every kingdom divided against
    itself will be ruined, and every city or household divided against
    itself will not stand. 26 If Satan drives out Satan, he is divided
    against himself. How then can his kingdom stand? 27 And if I drive out
    demons by Beelzebul, by whom do your people drive them out? So then,
    they will be your judges. 28 But if it is by the Spirit of God that I
    drive out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.

    29
    “Or again, how can anyone enter a strong man’s house and carry off his
    possessions unless he first ties up the strong man? Then he can plunder
    his house.

    30
    “Whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with
    me scatters. 31 And so I tell you, every kind of sin and slander can be
    forgiven, but blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. 32
    Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but
    anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either
    in this age or in the age to come.

    33
    “Make a tree good and its fruit will be good, or make a tree bad and
    its fruit will be bad, for a tree is recognized by its fruit. 34 You
    brood of vipers, how can you who are evil say anything good? For the
    mouth speaks what the heart is full of. 35 A good man brings good things
    out of the good stored up in him, and an evil man brings evil things
    out of the evil stored up in him. 36 But I tell you that everyone will
    have to give account on the day of judgment for every empty word they
    have spoken. 37 For by your words you will be acquitted, and by your
    words you will be condemned.”

  • Craig

    ~ The Baptism with the Holy Spirit based upon the foundation of scripture.

    ** Based upon the scriptures below, the initial result of having received the Baptism with the Holy Spirit was speaking in tounges.

    Is there any basis in the bible to show that the Baptism with the Holy Spirit has been done away with and ceased ? No. Not at all !

    1. Luke 24:49

    Behold, I send the Promise of My Father upon you; but tarry in the city of Jerusalem until you are endued with power from on high.”

    2. Acts 1:4-5

    4 And being assembled together with them, He commanded them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the Promise of the Father, “which,” He said, “you have heard from Me;

    5 for John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.”

    ** // 5 for John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.” // **

    3. Acts 2:1-4

    1 When the Day of Pentecost had fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.

    2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven, as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled the whole house where they were sitting.

    3 Then there appeared to them divided tongues, as of fire, and one sat upon each of them.

    4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

    ** // 4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. // **

    4. Acts 10:44-48

    44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word.

    45 And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also.

    46 For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God.

    Then Peter answered,

    47 “Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?”

    48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then they asked him to stay a few days.

    ** // 46 For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God. // **

    5. Acts 11:15-17

    15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell upon them, as upon us at the beginning.

    16 Then I remembered the word of the Lord, how He said, ‘John indeed baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’

    17 If therefore God gave them the same gift as He gave us when we believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could withstand God?”

    ** // 16 Then I remembered the word of the Lord, how He said, ‘John indeed baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’ // **

    6. Acts 19:1-6

    1 And it happened, while Apollos was at Corinth, that Paul, having passed through the upper regions, came to Ephesus. And finding some disciples

    2 he said to them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?”

    So they said to him, “We have not so much as heard whether there is a Holy Spirit.”

    3 And he said to them, “Into what then were you baptized?”

    So they said, “Into John’s baptism.”

    4 Then Paul said, “John indeed baptized with a baptism of repentance, saying to the people that they should believe on Him who would come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.”

    5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

    6 And when Paul had laid hands on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke with tongues and prophesied.

    ** // 6 And when Paul had laid hands on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke with tongues and prophesied. // **

  • Breckmin

    I agree with John MacArthur in what I “think” he means.. not necessarily the words he chose to describe it (how a false Holy Spirit ‘concept’ has become an Idol (I don’t think the golden calf analogy is really that helpful to the Charismatics reading it)). His church congregation and radio audience would better understand the nuances of what he means, however.

  • Breckmin

    Plus, it seems like the title for this article is extremely exaggerated.

  • Yacob Gideon

    Come to the Far East. The noises in the defiling and demonic temples are no different from that amongst those Charismatic tongues. It just that, one dressed in suit, the other in their cultural attire. Exchange places, put the temple medium in the synagogue of Satan and she will make the same sound, while the other dressed in suit will also make the same sound in the temple. Thus, the Charismatic have an accursed gospel, another Jesus and another spirit – just like the spirit in the temple and in Rev ch16, as they may do signs and wonders. One needs to look on The Pentecostal /Charismatic Movement as a demonically energized heresy to expedite the ecumenical movement (the final apostasy).

  • Portra777

    Here are some quotes from John MacArthur’s Strange Fire talk:

    “We know there are people who are in this movement who are deceivers, and they know they’re deceivers. They’re false teachers, and they know they’re false teachers. They’re in it for the money, and they know they’re in it for the money.”

    “Just want to repeat that again. The most serious crimes ever committed against God are committed in corrupt worship. That takes us to the point where we need to say the charismatic movement continually dishonors God in its false forms of worship. It dishonors the Father. It dishonors the Son. But most specifically, it dishonors the Holy Spirit. Irreverent ideas, irreverent actions, untrue beliefs, false claims, false promises, fleshly behaviors, all these things are attributed to the Holy Spirit, but they are a dishonor to Him that they would even be identified with His name. It’s more strange fire and the sad thing is it’s ground for judgment, it’s ground for judgment.”

    “It’s fair to say that the reverse has happening in many places in the charismatic movement. They are attributing to the Holy Spirit the works of Satan. Once they had attributed to Satan the works of the Holy Spirit. Now it’s reversed. God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit, the triune God is not to be trifled with. It is dangerous to all who offer strange fire. It is dangerous to all who offer corrupt worship. It is dangerous to declare things that the Holy Spirit has not done, has not said, would not participate in as works of the Holy Spirit. That is not a small matter. It is a radical seriousness in dishonoring the Holy Spirit that apparently escapes these people.”

    “I was watching the other day some behavior among Hindus who are a part of what’s called the Kundalini cult, the Kundalini cult. They have certain body movements that appear to be perhaps best explained by demon possession. And they’re the absolutely identical body movements to people in the charismatic movement in the extreme behaviors that we see in so-called revivals. This is paganism. This is the work of Satan. This is the work of the kingdom of darkness, and it is not to be attributed to the Holy Spirit.”

    “Am I discrediting everyone in the movement? No. I think there are people in the movement who desire to worship God in a true way. They may be caught up in this false worship, as well, because intention is not enough. The movement itself – listen carefully – offers nothing to true worship. Can I say that again? The movement itself has brought us nothing to enrich true worship. Why do I say that? Because the charismatic movement as such has made no contribution to biblical clarity. It has made no contribution to biblical interpretation. It has made no contribution to sound doctrine. We have had an accurate biblical interpretation long before the charismatic movement started. We have had strong doctrine long before the charismatic movement happened. We have had going back in the steady stream of faithful men, all the way to the apostles, a clear stream of truth that gives us a full rich understanding of the Word of God.”

    “Do some in the charismatic movement believe the truth? They do. They do. Do some in the charismatic movement hold a sound theology on some issues? They do. But none of those true understandings have come to them through that movement. The true understandings have always been there in the long line of godly preachers and teachers that God has used to keep the truth and to keep the church on track. The movement adds nothing to that. It detracts and it confuses. It is not a source for any advancement of our understanding of Scripture or sound doctrine.”

    “Have people truly been saved in charismatic churches and under the preaching of charismatic preachers? Answer: Yes they have, but nothing coming from that movement has been the reason they were saved. The gospel is the reason they were saved, and it wasn’t invented by that movement. In some places, it is still intact. In some it’s not.”

    “Nothing coming from the charismatic movement has provided recovery or strengthening of the biblical gospel. Nothing coming from the charismatic movement has preserved truth and sound doctrine. It has only produced distortion, confusion, and error. The faith of the biblical gospel has been intact. It has survived. It will survive because God protects it and raises up faithful men in faithful churches to pass it from generation to generation.”

    “Yes, there are people in the charismatic movement who know the truth, who love the truth, who are orthodox on the gospel, and heterodox on the Holy Spirit. Not all of them are heretics. But I say again, the contribution of the truth to people in the movement doesn’t come from the movement. It comes in spite of it.”

    “I glorify God for His grace to sinners who are in those churches and under those influences, and God has allowed the truth to reside in some of those environments. And I give Him the glory for that grace that is given to sinners who are in those churches. It is possible in spite of the movement to become a believer, but not because of it.”

    “The world over, my great fear is that people are lost, lost in the movement, chasing carnal desires and false promises, with little or no understanding or interest in the true gospel, true repentance, the true Christ, and true salvation. No movement supposedly based on an orthodox gospel, has done more damage to the church than this movement, no movement.”

    “As I said, you only have 14 million Mormons. The damage that 500 million people can do to an orthodox understanding of Scripture and divine truth is monumental, and I fear that its success comes not from its connection to the truth, but its success comes from its connection to the kingdom of darkness. It is successful because it is promising what unregenerate sinners already want. Evangelicalism has thrown its arms open and welcomed the Trojan Horse of the charismatic movement into the city of God, and its troops have taken over and placed an idol in the city of God, not the truth.”

    “You know, it does amaze me that the movement has survived the way it has. I just have to – people say to me, “Why doesn’t God strike these people down?” Because He is by nature patient and because His purposes are unknown to me. I don’t know any more about the secret councils of God than Job did. And God isn’t obliged to have to tell me everything. But I do know this. The growth of the false charismatic movement will not stop the hand of God in judgment, in God’s time.”

    “The charismatic movement has successfully demanded acceptance on the basis of love and tolerance. So it’s been welcomed, corrupting the church, cultivating emotionalism to the extreme, confusing people about prayer, worship, praise, faith, contentment, humility, sovereignty, and a myriad of other things. And another time, another part of history in the past, they would have been rejected as either heterodox, or heretical.”

    “I’ll start believing that the truth prevails in the charismatic movement when I see the leaders who are the people most exposed to its principles looking more like Jesus Christ. I can see that they really are partakers of the divine nature.”

    A final prayer for the Charismatic movement:

    “Father, we thank You that we’ve been able to gather together. Thank you for these precious people. There’s an eagerness in their hearts for the truth – not for its own sake, but for the sake of knowing You, and loving You, serving You, proclaiming Your Word. We know what the true work of the Holy Spirit is because You’ve told us.

    And where we see Christlikeness, the humility of Christ, the meekness of Christ, the gentleness of Christ, the kindness of Christ, the truthfulness of Christ, where we see the Word of God exalted and honored, we know the Holy Spirit is at work. Where we see sacrifice, where we see love, where we see a passion for holy Scripture, where we see discernment and truth reign, we know the Holy Spirit’s at work.

    Well, we don’t see that across this movement. We therefore cannot conclude that it’s a work of the Holy Spirit. We would never attribute it to Him. We would be frightened to even think of doing it. Make them truth-clear, Lord. Make the truth clear. Help us to understand so that we can be a means of helping others understand.

    Thank You for all that You have done in us. We don’t feel cheated. We don’t need to chase after any of these foolish falsehoods. We’re content because the work of the Holy Spirit is truly unfolding in genuine believers. We’re grateful that we experience that. It’s manifest in our love for You, our love for truth, our love for the people of God.

    These are the things produced by the Holy Spirit. Not only in what we love, but what we hate, a hatred of error, sin, corruption. We’re not perfect – far from it. But we love what we love and we hate what we hate because of the work of the Holy Spirit in us. We thank You for that. We bless Your name. Give us a wonderful week and fulfill in us all Your good pleasure. We pray in Christ’s name. Amen.”