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This is the strangest conversation I have ever been a part of. I am pretty flabbergasted.
From my Facebook page:
It goes on. And on. And on.
What do you guys think? Am I way off base here?
Well for starters he’s clearly a misogynistic troll and doesn’t deserve any attention.
That being said, it’s Hinduism 😛
Of course there are people like him who deny the divine being present in human females…
and then there are people literally worshipping human females. In the context of Navratri in particular, Kumari or Kanya Puja is conducted in parts of India, and let’s not even begin to talk about Nepal and its worship of the royal Kumari.
I’d say the majority of Hindus fall somewhere in between, leaning towards the “female energy in human females” side, rather than… whatever his position is.
Also, he’d have to define what exactly he counts as “vadik” (sic), because 90% of what modern Hindus do or believe isn’t in the Vedas but rather developed from Vedic principles later on. If we accept all types of both Shruti and Smriti, then it really just becomes a matter of whose book you read and how you read it.
As said above: it’s Hinduism 😛
Miriam, I appreciate your efforts to dismiss Ghosh’s concerns (not gneuine, mostly) but what did you mean when you wrote “it’s Hinduism :P”?
Also, as far as 90% ‘modern’ Hindus not doing or believing what is in the Vedas but doing what you think are Vedic principles is concerned, I hope you know the difference between interpretation of the Vedas and evolving new principles from them. If you referred to the latter in the comment, then your statement about 90% ‘modern’ Hindus is fallacious and is probably false too.
Wow, that guy is incredibly rude. He’s probably just a woman-hater. While he accuses you of being wrong, he doesn’t explain his position on what is ‘right’. I agree with Miriam Grimm that it’s likely a troll. Just ignore him.
Hello Guys, this blogs is quite informative and interesting. The quality of information and experiences shared is really good. I have also shared my point of view and experiences being hindu in my blog “https://atuldixit87.blogspot.com/”
so what do you think of the big brouhaha over this temple and women of menstruating age? that seem pretty strange to me.
The big brouhaha is the brouhaha of the Clash of Civilisations, which is precisely why it is BIG.
On one side, there is the Hindu civilisation and on the other hand there is the Western civilisation, representing a contemporary Battle of Kurukshetra between the forces of Dharma and Adharma.
Hindus, for whom the threads of sacred traditions have not been severed due to Westernisation, know the legend of Lord Ayyappa and they insist that the youthful celibate deity has refused to see women aged between 10 and 50. Traditional Hindu ladies love and honour Him for what He is and are willing to wait for decades to visit Him; they love Him THAT much.
Hindu ladies who believe in Lord Ayyappa have started a campaign #ReadyToWait to prevent the destruction of Hindu traditions under the (un)holy names of “Social Justice” and “Feminism”
On the other side, are the Westernised elites who rule us. They look like us but their manners, tastes and ethos are Western. These people consider themselves to be the inheritors of the British Empire in India, and they are piling on the White Man’s Burden in civilising the Hindoo half-children half-devils. Of course, “women’s rights” and “gender equality” being nice good Western values, nice good White women would like to partake in their menfolks Burden too, so, our elites come in both sexes.
The author of this blog had earlier written a piece to that extent, expressing her displeasure at the blindness of the Hindoo heathen.
This latter group, as a part of their civilising mission, have declared that not letting women between 10 and 50 is according to Lord Ayyappa’s wishes, is “misogyny” and “patriarchy” and “superstition” and “violations of gender equality”; in other words, Lord Ayyappa is a “false god”, honouring whose wishes amounts to practising a “false religion”.
Hindus are no longer taking assaults on our traditions and way of life, by our Westernised elites, lightly. Hence the big brouhaha.
Watch out for this space… this Clash of Civilisations is going to get worse.
so you support the practice of banning women [of menstruating age] from temples?
I oppose Christian iconoclasm masquerading as “women’s right” and “gender equality” so as to destroy the ethics, the traditions, the culture, the social fabric and the civilisation of my forefathers and my people. And so do hundreds of millions of Hindu ladies.
And yes, I am against the practice of women entering men’s restroom or vice-versa and the practice of throwing severed cow heads inside Hindu temples.
ok. so are you against women of menstruating age entering temples?
I am against those who view Sabarimala temple in Kerala as a Social Justice crusade or a Civilising mission instead of the place where Lord Ayyappa is found.
As for smashing idolatry or patriarchy, they can continue to do it in social sciences department in all major universities…..
ok. so are you for women of menstruating age being banned.
it is a simple question. why can’t you just say yes or no?
It is not a simple question, as your original post as well as each and every single your replies indicate. I guess the latest fad in the West is obsession about menstruation, hence you keep repeating it.
The more realistic view is that this is a war has forced upon Hindus for last 500+ years, and it is only now Hindus are fighting back.
Of course, as a “White Male Atheist” you’ll never admit this, so I began with Clash of Civilisations and I stand vindicated.
yes, it is a clash of civilizations, so why can’t you answer the question. who cares if the west is ‘obsessed’ with menstruation. it is still a simple question.
do you support banning women of menstruating age from temples?
I must say this is not as simple as you would like to think. It may be conceptual concern for you, not for us.
so you are for the ban?
No, I am not. You don’t need to show me a video to let me know the practices here.
However, I am not for using the Court’s judgment as a tool for solely antagonizing the sentiments of a religion and nothing else. To that extent I agree with Mr. Ghosh.
I don’t think you appreciate the difference between the belief that menstruating women are impure and that Lord Ayyappa’s vow of celibacy may waver because of menstruating women (hence, sexually active too) coming near Him. The two seem to look same to you. They are not.
“I agree with Mr. Ghosh.” that sounds about right.
so if the courts don’t force the old religious guard to change its way, why and when will it. you are trying to stand on both sides of the fence.
” for solely antagonizing the sentiments of a religion and nothing else” isn’t the point to allow the women in the temple? not ‘antagonizing’ the religion? aren’t the women the same religion? your statement makes no sense.
“I don’t think you appreciate the difference between the belief that menstruating women are impure and that Lord Ayyappa’s vow of celibacy may waver because of menstruating women (hence, sexually active too) coming near Him. The two seem to look same to you. They are not.” yeah i don’t appreciate that difference. so you are saying the women may temp your god to break his vow of celibacy? rotflmao.
***so if the courts don’t force the old religious guard to change its way, why and when will it.***
There is a chance that will happen… as long the White race and its Brown slaves keep on trying. When these two demographics perish, there will be no civilising mission. We intend to remain subhumans.
This is NOT a religious problem. This is an racial problem.
***isn’t the point to allow the women in the temple? not ‘antagonizing’ the religion? aren’t the women the same religion? your statement makes no sense.***
The women belong the same religion but not to the same god. We polytheists have many gods. White Indians may choose their own, may Sabarimala be exempted from what the insect Churchill called “a beastly people with a beastly religion”.
One day we will have our revenge.
***yeah i don’t appreciate that difference. so you are saying the women may temp your god to break his vow of celibacy? rotflmao.***
Yup. Un-civilised and un-Christianised false gods of the Browns.
Go Muslims refugees in Europe and America!!!
Rape the White bitches!
I don’t see how those two are mutually exclusive though :/
Did you just compare menstruating women entering Sabarimala with women entering men’s restroom? Did you even stop to think of difference between question of spiritual requirements and that of physical requirements?
The distinction between affairs “spiritual” and “temporal” is a Christian (and consequently Western) concept, as they “render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar’s and unto God the things that are God’s”. This God is, of course, the Biblical God as opposed to Ishvara.
Hence, in medieval Europe, the spiritual head of state was the Bishop of Rome (aka the Pope) and the temporal head of state was the monarch (king/emperor/prince/duke et al).
Thus, they have “Sunday schools” and “Sunday services” because among the days of the week, Sunday is left for the Biblical God as a Christian “Sabbath”. Jews observe Sabbath on Saturday.
Interesting to note that in French, Sunday is called Dimanche, from the Latin Dominicus (meaning “of the Lord”). Dominicus was the day reserved for the Pagan Roman God Sol Invictus (meaning “Unconquered Sun”). Christian church slowly appropriated the day to both destroy Paganism and to draw a distinction between themselves and the Jews.
The same thing is happening here in India, where Hindus are fed de-Christianised Christian propaganda in schools where they are taught Gospel of Matthew 21:22, but now under the name of “modernity” and “rationality” and “secularism”.
Congratulations, Mr. Singh, for buying into Christianity.
I don’t think most of the people here (including you Mr. Ghosh) really understand the intricacies of Hinduism. As a practicing Vaishnavite all my life and having lived in India rather than some other country and commenting on how good/bad a practice is, I agree with the premise that every religion should be given some space let it evolve its practices with time. However, there are some practices that shake you to the core and they require to be done away with. Who gets to decide whether a practice needs to be erased is to be decided by the practitioners of that religion of course, not someone who got to know about myriad forms of Hinduism through some ISKCON temple or a guru several seas away from the land where it all was born. It is for the (progessive, Indian) Hindus to decide whether they want the practice to continue.
However, in the present case the Supreme Court of India, has, after hearing the concerned parties (including TDB), declared the Sabrimala practice to be violative of Article 14 & 21 of the Indian Constitution. It is amusing to see devotees coming to streets in protest against the decision of the apex court of the same judicial system they would readily take recourse to if anything untoward were to happen to them. Practice of Sati (Self immolation by widows on their husbands’ funeral pyre) was considered to be an essential one for the woman to be considered a ‘Pati vrita nari’. However, I don’t think anyone today would consider it to be ‘normal’ enough to be allowed to be practiced.
As far as care and concern about Lord Ayyappa is concerned, I just wish He were here to whisper in the ears of all those protesting what sinful act they have been committing all the time against all those women who they worship as Durga and Kali. Women don’t need to be put on a pedestal, they deserve basic human treatment that they deserve. Frankly, I never fully understood the argument of the devotees. One the one hand, they say Lord Ayyappa is ‘Naishtik Brahmachari’ which means one who is celibate and is not swayed by carnal desires, on the other hand, they say His vow will be broken if women enter the temple. Isn’t Lord Ayyappa Himself not powerful enough not to be swayed by presence of some lowly, earthly creatures?
***I don’t think most of the people here (including you Mr. Ghosh) really understand the intricacies of Hinduism.***
Let me tell you an anecdote:- I was reading an Indian magazine one day when I came across an article written by a Sanskrit name-bearing Indian woman. I know that the article was written for an American audience because Americanisms such as “color” and “period” were rife throughout it, instead of the “colour” and the “full stop” which are more familiar to Indians.
As the author (not an NRI) began the article with “India is a land of mysteries, full of contrasts….”, I had a fit of cognitive dissonance as having lived all of my life in the land of my forefathers in the company of my people, I never had such feeling even remotely.
But then I remembered my own short stint in the US, where I was bewildered seeing cigarettes in pharmacies, seeing 18 year olds buy rifles and then wait for 3 years to take a sip of mild ale, and getting to know that the criminally punishable offence of having sex for money can be made legal by filming the act and selling it online.
America seemed to me as “a land of mysteries, full of contrasts….”
I realised that the woman’s amazement was the result of deracination and alienation from her roots. She was saying the things she was saying because she was seeing India with non-Indian eyes.
Your characterisation of Hinduism as an intricacy reeks of the same, at least, to me.
*** Who gets to decide whether a practice needs to be erased is to be decided by the practitioners of that religion of course***
Exactly, then please explain to me as to why Supreme Court Justice Chandrachud, in his verdict of yay to the petition of civilising the Hindus, referenced Sujatha Gidla – Evangelical Christian missionary and Nivedita Menon – a JNU feminist whose attitude towards Hindus come from Marx, Gramsci and Derrida?
Also, please explain to me as to why Christian women (like MC Josephine) and Muslim women (like Rehana Fathima) – adherents of the two “One True Religion”s seem so obsessed in forcing women into “False Religion” temple of Sabarimala?
Furthermore, please tell to me whether Justice Chandrachud is a devote of Lord Ayyappa or not? And whether a supposedly “secular” state can or should become a “social reformer” of “Hinduism”?
*** Practice of Sati (Self immolation by widows on their husbands’ funeral pyre) was considered to be an essential one for the woman to be considered a ‘Pati vrita nari’.***
Yes, and the practice of Seppuku/Harakiri (Self disembowelment by male Samurai on their Daimyo’s defeat/death) was considered to be an essential one for the Samurai to be considered an exemplar of ‘Yamato-damashii’. Yet the Japanese don’t flagellate themselves because of it and subject Shinto shrines and Zen Buddhist monasteries to court led reform, ahem, civilising mission. Why should we?
Let’s take this reform of “Hinduism” to its logical conclusion:
Let’s smash our temples and our idols because “God is inside all of us” and because National Highway Authority needs land.
Let’s erase the names and rites of our gods because “We are monotheists too!!!” and because Lord Ayyappa is a misogynist anyways.
Let’s stop Hindu funerals because “Our body is an instrument only” and it’ll stop air pollution as well.
Let’s name our children “Ezekiel George” or “Abdul Hamid” because Sanskrit is Brahmanical hegemony and learning other languages will expand our horizon.
Let’s burn our Shastras and the Brahmins who have memorised them to smash the “caste system” and to celebrate freedom of expression.
Let’s feed our dying grandmother beef soup because “cow worship” is superstitious and we are modern.
Let’s get baptised and circumcised because “Sarva Dharma Sama Bhava”.
Let’s keep on peeling away each and every single layer of the onion until nothing is left but tears.
***I just wish He were here to whisper in the ears of all those protesting what sinful act they have been committing all the time against all those women who they worship as Durga and Kali.***
I have much better idea. Let’s destroy the “hetero-patriarchal” “gender binary” “misogynistical” “male chauvinist” devil called Ayyappa, and start worshipping The One True God whose Apostle declared “There is neither Jew nor Greek, neither slave nor free, neither man nor woman, for you are one in Christ”.
This is where we are finally headed. Isn’t it?
I never meant Lord Ayyappa is ‘hetero-patriarchal” “gender binary” “misogynistical” “male chauvinist” devil’. I meant devotees believe that the practice is all important. If Lord Ayyappa Himself could come down onto our place, He would have told us that the idea of equality between men and women triumphs a belief that many devotees have, is what I really meant.
I am unable to understand how you conclude that we destroy the temples etc. and start following monotheism just because of present case. You are really good at making illogical extensions to arguments, aren’t you?
What about Reshma Nishanth? She isn’t a follower of “One true religion”, she observed 41 days’ fast. But how convenient for you to not include her from the list of examples you gave.
As regards the Supreme Court, don’t you need a final arbiter on disputes? Oh, I think you want to roll back to system of pandits deciding on issues. Like ulemas do for Islam, but with official backing. You would love that, won’t you?
What you want is the Constitution go away. And no, I have not “bought into” “One True Religion”, I just referred to the Constitutional values and the need to reconcile religious practices with Constitutional values. If you have a problem with that, perhaps you may want to ask the State to revoke the FRs including Art. 21 for you.
***If Lord Ayyappa Himself could come down onto our place, He would have told us that the idea of equality between men and women triumphs a belief that many devotees have, is what I really meant.***
Lord Ayyappa Himself lived in this place, and He said that “men and women are equal, but for personal reasons, I won’t be giving darshans to women between 10 and 50 here at Sabarimala, even though the ladies can do aradhana for Me elsewhere”.
This is what the devotees of Lord Ayyappa believe. If you don’t believe that, then take a short walk on a long pier, because you and your opinions don’t belong there.
***I am unable to understand how you conclude that we destroy the temples etc. and start following monotheism just because of present case. You are really good at making illogical extensions to arguments, aren’t you?***
You are so intensely ideologically against the logic of Hindu traditions and culture that I am putting my arguments in a different way:
You want to have sex with your wife one fine night, but she says she’s very sick causing you to relent. But why do you relent?
To prove your feminist credentials OR because you empathise with her and honour her wishes?
Think about it. Right now, you belong to the first type.
***What about Reshma Nishanth? She isn’t a follower of “One true religion”, she observed 41 days’ fast. But how convenient for you to not include her from the list of examples you gave.***
Hindu name-bearer Pinarayi Vijayan, Kerala CM with impeccable Communist credentials, has unleashed the police upon Sabarimala protesters, leading to injuries, damages to property and over 1000 incarcerations of Hindus. People who posted #SaveSabarimala in FaceBook were arrested from their homes in the middle of the night.
I’ll include the old comrade in the list too, along with Reshma Nishanth and yourself.
***As regards the Supreme Court, don’t we need a final arbiter on disputes?***
Final arbiter is either Truth or Power. Sabarimala protesters got State-sponsored terrorism because they spoke Truth to Power.
*Oh, I think you want to roll back to system of pandits deciding on issues. Like ulemas do for Islam, but with official backing. You would love that, won’t you?***
Nice Strawman argument! You’ve learnt the technique well from your college professors. The people protesting at Sabarimala aren’t Pandits but ordinary devotees, majority of whom are women.
As for Ulemas, they DO legislate for Muslims in “Secular” India through Muslim Personal Law Boards. So much for your “Constitutional values”. May the Supreme Court will pass verdicts on duplicity and hypocrisy too. Oops sorry, SC is very much a part of the system.
***And no, I have not “bought into” “One True Religion”, I just referred to the Constitutional values and the need to reconcile religious practices with Constitutional values.***
I have Hindu values. You have Constitutional values.
My Dharma is Eternal. Your Constitution is 68 years old.
I am non-Constitutionalist Hindu. You are a Constitutionalist non-Hindu.
As someone said, “East is East, and West is West, and never the twain shall meet.”….
***If you have a problem with that, perhaps you may want to ask the State to revoke the FRs including Art. 21 for you.***
Krishna did something like that in the Battle of Kurukshetra when He deprived the Kauravas of the kingdom they earned in the game of dice, which was lawful at that time.
As a self-proclaimed so-called “practising Vaishnava”, you should know that.
“My Dharma is Eternal. Your Constitution is 68 years old.”
This one really caught my attention. Lol.
***This one really caught my attention. Lol.***
It should have, otherwise, I would have been mighty disappointed.
The statement was designed to extract a confession from you, where you tell me who and what you exactly are. And, I am glad that it served its purpose. 🙂
The problem is that unlike Haiti, where the the Mulattoes exterminated the Whites and were in turn exterminated by the Blacks, nothing of that sort happened in India.
On the other hand, when will you let us ni**ers fu*k your mom, sister, wife and daughter?
If you can’t then, at least, shove a tampon into a menstruating white street whore’s vagina and then pull it out and then put it into your white father’s mouth.
Then, we subhumans will listen to you.
Anyways, you whites are little more than insects….. make your worthless white lives count.
is this a sock for ‘american mulatto’?
“The problem is that unlike Haiti, where the the Mulattoes exterminated the Whites and were in turn exterminated by the Blacks, nothing of that sort happened in India.” what does that have to do with banning menstruating women from temples?
are you in support of banning women of menstruating age from temple?
“On the other hand, when will you let us ni**ers fu*k your mom, sister, wife and daughter?” well my mom and sisters are probably past the age that you would want to fu*k them, certainly my mom. i have no daughters but i have a neice who dates black guys almost exclusively. she is in her 20s, so i image she fu*k them.
“If you can’t then, at least, shove a tampon into a menstruating white street whore’s vagina and then pull it out and then put it into your white father’s mouth.” that doesn’t make any sense either. and that would expose you to all sorts of bad things.
“Then, we subhumans will listen to you.
Anyways, you whites are little more than insects….. make your worthless white lives count.” rotflmao.
***are you in support of banning women of menstruating age from temple?***
I don’t care about the disease more than I care about the pathogen.
I am in support of banning the White race along with Whitened members of the Indian race. Then most (but not all) of our problems will go away, including menstruomania.
***well my mom and sisters are probably past the age that you would want to fu*k them, certainly my mom. i have no daughters but i have a neice who dates black guys almost exclusively. she is in her 20s, so i image she fu*k them.***
Fu*k!!! Another set of mulattoes. Oh, my non-existent Yahweh!!!! When will this torture end???
***that doesn’t make any sense either. and that would expose you to all sorts of bad things.***
Makes perfect sense. PROVE that menstrual blood isn’t milk…. Well! You just proved it! Menstrual blood does “expose you to all sorts of bad things”.
It seems odd that someone claiming to be strict Vaidika would quote from Vishnu Purana; many Vaidikas consider the Puranas unreliable. But if one does accept the Puranas and Vedanta, then there indeed are many quite different positions taken in different texts and their commentaries.
I am sure that I won’t be receiving replies to this post, as that would disrupt the blogger’s “White Hindu” business, but nonetheless I’ll write it for the sake of confused Hindus who may chance upon it.
There are certain concepts in our Hindu civilisation and our languages for which there exist no word in in your civilisation (i.e. “The West”); and using words familiar to you for these concepts leads invariably to mistranslations and worse, misunderstandings.
If I were to go to the Capitol Hill, and ask the locals what the building atop it was, and got the reply, “It is where legislators make laws”, I may be tempted to say that the US Congress is the “Parliament” of the United States. The problem with this conclusion is that the US Congress is NOT a parliament in the sense it is understood in UK or India. So, if I told Indians about this US parliament, they would think that the US President is a ceremonial figurehead, that the US has a Prime Minister and that this PM is a member of the US Congress and is a leader (or is nominated by the leader) of the majority party.
What is true of the conundrum of the non-American in America, is also true of the non-Hindu looking at Hindus, and the author of this blog is the perfect example. And just as US Congress is NOT a “parliament”,
Dharma is NOT “religion”.
Shastra is NOT “scripture”
Brahma is NOT “God” (singular nominative of Brahma being “Brahman”)
Ishvara is NOT “God”
Bhagavan is NOT “God”
Deva is NOT “a God”
Devi is NOT “a Goddess”
Puja is NOT “worship”
Mantra is NOT “prayer”
Brahmin is NOT “pastor”, or “priest” or “philosopher” for that matter
Mandir is NOT “temple”
You have, because of your Western cultural baggage, re-created Christianity, but now, with an Indic veneer and you are marketing the same as “Hinduism”.
This “Hinduism” does not exist on ground.
In an earlier post, you showed the temerity as well as the stupidity of listing “core beliefs” of “Hinduism”.
If a “Hindu” was a votary in this imagined belief system that you call “Hinduism”, I doubt you’ll find even 20 million people in India who are Hindus.
females are considered as the 5fth form of devi. they are called amsamsa swaroopam of devi