And You Wonder Why I See the Right as Anti-Woman . . .

I recently spent several hours arguing about abortion. The conversation started when a man I’d known during college scoffed at the idea that Republicans are anti-woman and said “actually, it’s the progressives who have the truly anti-woman position, what with their support of the abortion industry that harms so many women.” I read that statement and couldn’t just leave it.

I explained to him that what harms women are the situations to at they find themselves in, not abortion itself, and that if abortion were banned women would still find themselves with unplanned pregnancies and still be unable to afford to properly raise the resulting children. I told him about studies of abortion walkaways, and explained that women who want abortions and can’t get them end up disproportionately in poverty and more likely to stay with abusive partners.

I told him that the prevalence of abortion correlates not with where it is banned but rather with things like widespread birth control access and a strong social safety net. I explained that if he wants to decrease the number of abortions, he should not ignore these things and opt for a narrow focus on banning abortion. I explained that even if it was the case that banning abortions would decrease the number of them (something I’m not sure I’m entirely willing to grant), banning abortions without addressing things like unplanned pregnancies and the expense and difficulty of raising children would result in increased suffering and decreased quality of life for both women and children.

I told him that seven in ten women who have abortions say cite their inability to afford to raise a child as a reason for doing so, and that if he wants to cut down on the number of abortions he needs to address poverty. I told him that women often have abortions because they feel they can’t have another child and properly care for the children they already have. I told him he should support programs that would make it more affordable to raise children through things like childcare subsidies, universal healthcare for children, and more widespread welfare provisions for low-income women raising children.

I told him that if he wants to decrease the number of abortions he should support greater access to long-term methods of birth control, which are the most effective at preventing pregnancy but are also the most effective up front. I told him that offering long-term birth control free of charge has the potential to decrease the number of abortions by as much as 75%. I explained that if we can improve women’s ability to plan when and if to become pregnant, thereby cutting down on the number of unplanned pregnancies, the number of abortions will go down.

I explained to him, in summary, that if he wants to reduce the number of abortions, rather than narrowly focusing on banning the practice he should support comprehensive sex education, affordable access to effective birth control (especially long-term methods), social programs to make raising children more affordable, protections for pregnant workers, and reducing the stigma of unwed motherhood. I explained that we know that all of these things would reduce the number of abortions, and would do so without harming women in the process, and while increasing the quality of life of children born to these women. This, I said, was the truly pro-life solution.

I said all this, and yet he told me he was against increased birth control access (he suggested women just use abstinence or NFP if they don’t want to get pregnant). He told me he was against lifting the stigma for unwed motherhood (quite the opposite—he said he thinks there need to be more shame associated with unwed motherhood). He told me he was against programs like welfare and childcare assistance (he said women have to “take responsibility for their mistakes”). He compared abortion to the Holocaust and to slavery and spoke of innocent babies murdered and came back again and again to calling for abortion to be banned.

And all I could think is, and you wonder why I see the Right as anti-woman? This is why I see the Right as anti-woman! Because people like you care more about the legal act of banning abortion than you do about taking a moment to give a damn about women—or children, for that matter!

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What Are Your Thoughts?leave a comment
  • myintx

    You DARED and I produced….

    “Perhaps we should make it illegal to have kids?” No.. but killing born kids is illegal (with rare exceptions, such as pulling the plug).. SO, it makes sense that killing an unborn child should be illegal too.

    • purr

      Yes you did.

      *pats myintx on the head*

      However, this is not the norm, and you know it.

      This woman had a troubled history, and should not be the type to be getting pregnant, or having kids, or being around kids, or anything of that sort.

      SO, it makes sense that killing an unborn child should be illegal too.

      Funny, you don’t seem to care about 1) unborn ivf babies in petri dishes 2) ‘unhealthy’ parasitic twins.

      • zoey

        Of course not! This is about punishing the woman for being so audacious to have sex for HER OWN SELFISH PLEASURE

      • Olive Markus

        Anybody with a vagina experiencing… shhhh… pleasure is the ultimate sin, you know.

        Dangerous stuff.

      • myintx

        Since when does your side talk about the ‘norm’…

      • purr

        91% of abortions occur before 13 weeks

        61% before 9 weeks

        And I show you the photo of one of those typical abortions at least 2x a day.

      • zoey

        Way to add something intelligent to the discussion.

    • Olive Markus

      Forcing people into slavery is illegal.

      Forced organ donation is illegal.

      Rape is illegal.

      Therefore,…

    • Olive Markus

      If anything, this example that you produced is proof that what we really need is extensive help for mentally ill individuals and loads of research into brain function. These things are extremely rare and very few doctors will do this, but a crazy person will do what they will…

      If you want to play this game: My cousin is extremely mentally ill. She conceived two children (after trying since she was 12 years old – seriously). She gave birth. She gave LIFE, which, according to you, makes her BEAUTIFUL.

      Then she proceeded to abuse, neglect, starve and beat the living fuck out of her children. One of them is now permanently brain damaged and once her grandmother dies (who is the only one caring for these children), I’m not sure what will happen to her.

      Should I be able to use this as an example to outlaw birth? Or as an example that mentally ill, shitty people are mentally ill and shitty and we need to find a way to deal with it?

  • myintx

    Citation – http://datacenter.kidscount.org/data/tables/6270-children-entering-foster-care-by-age-group?loc=1#detailed/1/any/false/867,133,38,35,18/1889,2616,2617,2618,2619,122/13037,13038

    Also, about 52% of kids in foster care had a case goal of being reunited with their families.

    In Somalia, it would be wise to use birth control or abstain to avoid getting pregnant. Of course, that might require changes in their culture, education and funding. From what I’ve read, “Some believe that limiting family size goes against the will of God” – so birth control isn’t an option, and neither is abortion for them

    • fiona64

      Yep. A little over half had a goal of repatriation — and that still leaves 100K+ children available for *adoption.*

      In Somalia, it would be wise to use birth control or abstain to avoid getting pregnant.

      Thanks for demonstrating, once again, that you have no idea of what life is like in a third world country — particularly a war-torn one like Somalia.

      “Laissez-les manger le gateau,” quoth myintx …

  • Olive Markus

    Just because a man is paying child support, it doesn’t mean he didn’t want the baby to begin with, you know…

    Most men I know who didn’t want the baby just walked away without having to do or pay a thing. Try again.

  • myintx

    And, the patient at PP is a medical professional???? 😉
    The way the PP rep said it indicated that the unborn baby doesn’t have a heart beat at all until 17 or 18 weeks – that is a LIE.

    • fiona64

      You’ve been disproven in this assertion many, many, many times — by your own link.

      Just give it a damn rest. You’re trolling at this point.

  • myintx

    Abortion is much worse. In every abortion there is a DEATH.

    And, there are complications from killing your unborn baby too. And, there are reports that say these complications are often underreported.

    http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2011-06-16/news/ct-met-abortion-reporting-20110615_1_abortion-providers-fewer-abortions-national-abortion-federation

    • purr

      Already been debunked

      Abortion is much worse. In every abortion there is a DEATH.

      so now you are saying that you support forced organ donation? and forcing people to put their lives and health at risk to save others?

      my my, aren’t your views very pro-slavery and pro-torture

      and since you consider blindness, diabetes, ruptured vaginal wall and all of that to be ‘worth it’ to give life, then I have to ask, WHY AREN’T YOU GESTATING THAT PRECIOUS IVE EMBRYO?

      • myintx

        It’s your views that are pro-death.
        What I support Is RESPONSIBILITY. In 99% of cases the pregnancy resulted from consensual sex – that means the PARENTS have a duty to take care of their offspring. They have that duty when their children are born (they can’t kill them), they should have that duty before they are born too. The LIFE of the unborn baby outweighs the convenience of the mother.

      • purr

        I will ask again..

        and since you consider blindness, diabetes, ruptured vaginal wall and all of that to be ‘worth it’ to give life, then I have to ask, WHY AREN’T YOU GESTATING THAT PRECIOUS IVE EMBRYO?

  • myintx

    Nope, unborn babies are HUMAN.. Way to avoid answering my question. LOL

    • purr

      So then why do you support the slavery and torture of women? they are human too?

      why do you support the senseless killing of parasitic twins just because they are ‘unhealthy’? These twins are alive AND HUMAN too.

      EDIT: and apparently, you support the senseless killing of little toddlers – as long as they are asleep.

      • myintx

        What I support is parents taking responsibility for their offspring – born and unborn…
        Notice you STILL haven’t answered my question.

      • purr

        What question?

    • purr

      And I answered your question. Niemand and Fiona answered it for me, which is, your question is invalid, because you don’t understand how medically induced comas work, and how hospital evacuations work.

      Your 90 year old guy in a coma = already dead.

  • myintx

    The point is that a woman isn’t going to go blind before she even realizes she is pregnant. She can go to prenatal checkups and be monitored for hypertension or anything else that could lead to blindness…. Got any stats on the number of women in the US that go permanently blind because of being pregnant?

    • purr

      She can go to prenatal checkups and be monitored for hypertension or anything else that could lead to blindness….

      Not gonna happen if you are too poor to afford a doctor, let alone GET TO ONE.

      Oh, and regular checkups aren’t gonna prevent blindness – if it’s gonna happen, it’s gonna happen.

      You havent yet told us your solution for pregnant Nepalese women who have to travel 20 miles through the bush to even see a doctor. People who make no more than 100dollars a year. When the doctor will cost half of that, or more :)

      Got any stats on the number of women in the US that go permanently blind because of being pregnant?

      It is not up to you to decide how much medical RISK someone should expose themselves to. Just because YOU THINK BLINDNESS IS A JOKE does not mean someone else will share your views.

      Hey myintx, would you let someone poke your eyes out if it could save the life of an ivf embryo? After all, blindness AIN”T A THING, so you should be willing to go blind to ‘give the gift of life’.

      Makes me wonder why you won’t gestate an ivf embryo – since you think physical disability resulting from pregnancy iS WORTH IT

      • myintx

        Did I say blindness was a joke? NO…

        Got any stats on the number of women in the US that go permanently blind because of being pregnant?

        Here in the US, there are places women can go to and work with to get the help they need during their pregnancy. If a woman went to PP and said I want to keep my baby but cant get to the clinic for my checkups, can someone drive me, would PP help the woman??? I know other places that would 😉

        And YES, regular checkups can prevent hypertension – which is often a cause of blindness.

      • purr

        Did I say blindness was a joke? NO…

        Yeah, you did.

        You said women facing blindness and other health risks should just ‘see a doctor’ while completely ignoring the fact that if you’re too poor to afford a doctors visit IT ISN’T GONNA HELP YOU.

        Hell, you could give two shits about the women in Nepal who are facing blindness from malnutrition and have to walk 20 miles in -30 temperatures just to see a doctor. And you say they should get better nutrition. Yeah that’s easy, on less than a dollar a day.

        And for that matter, you’ve been mocking women who would commit suicide if they were faced with a forced pregnancy. You couldn’t give two shits if some of the people here killed themselves if they couldnt’ get an abortion.

      • Shayna

        Regular checkups won’t do anything for hypertension. That requires medication, altering diet, etc. And that medication? You might not be able to take it while you’re pregnant. And that hypertension? It might be caused by your pregnancy, in which case there is only one cure…wanna guess what it is?

        PS – If a woman is at PP, she doesn’t need to go anywhere for checkups…she is already there.

      • fiona64

        Got any stats on the number of women in the US that go permanently blind because of being pregnant?

        Already provided … no one’s fault but your own that you didn’t bother reading the materials presented.

    • fiona64

      Got any stats on the number of women in the US that go permanently blind because of being pregnant?

      Thanks for proving that you don’t bother reading peer-reviewed scientific links when they’re provided to you. I gave you the link *days ago* that studied exactly that.

  • myintx

    So, it sounds like you’re only for abortion when the unborn baby is a blastocyst. I’m sure there are plenty of pro-lifers that would take that compromise.

    • purr

      You consider blastocysts to be ‘unborn babies’ do you not?

    • fiona64

      So it sounds like you’re creating another straw man …

  • myintx

    And abortion does what??? Oh yea – it KILLS an human being!

    • purr

      Actually, it separates a clump of cells from the uterus.

      Big difference.

      • myintx

        In most cases, abortion is done on more than just a clump of cells. Abortion KILLS a human being.

      • http://itsmyworldcanthasnotyours.blogspot.com/ WMDKitty — Survivor

        It’s still more moral than slavery…

    • zoey

      Human and human being are not the same

    • fiona64

      No, it doesn’t. In the vast majority of cases, abortion removes an embryo from a woman’s body. An embryo is not a human being — no matter how many times you scream otherwise.

    • http://itsmyworldcanthasnotyours.blogspot.com/ WMDKitty — Survivor

      Self defense.

      Checkmate.

  • purr

    So basically, you are saying you’d rather Rosie kill herself if she was denied an abortion.

    So your apparent viewpoint is “pro-death” – for women.

  • myintx
    • fiona64

      So, you use one desperate young woman to try to make your case that everyone who seeks an abortion is committing infanticide? She clearly was not seeking medical assistance — which is what we are all talking about.

      You really are reaching …

      Truth is, if you were to have your fantasyland wishes come true, there would be hundreds of thousands of cases like this.

      Not that you care …

  • myintx

    “Consenting to sex means 2 people participate in an act that could cause pregnancy” is hateful? really? Would you like to tell me the politically correct phrase I should have used in this context? If you were that sensitive you think you’d be a just a tiny bit concerned about the millions of unborn children killed every year.
    S

    • zoey

      Millions of unborn children aren’t killed ever year. Zygotes, embryos and fetuses are.

      I’m more concerned about the actual living pregnant person. Notice that I said person, and not woman. Not all people who can become pregnant identify as a woman. Part of that whole “gender being non-binary” thing you don’t seem to know or care about.

      But sex is not a contract for pregnancy—people have a right to non-procreative sex. Legalized birth control implicitly provides the right to have sex without reproducing. ‘This right is constitutionally-protected (U.S. Supreme Court cases: Griswold v. Connecticut, 1965; and Eisenstadt v. Baird, 1972.) Most abortions are caused by failed contraceptives, but regardless, consent to sex does not entail consent to pregnancy, any more than consent to swimming implies consent to drown”

    • fiona64

      You might want to look up the word “heteronormative,” as suggested.

      And … I call BINGO. Again.

    • purr

      Rape also means pregnancy.

      And you would force a slave woman to carry a rapist slaveowners ‘unborn baby’ to term.

      Tell us, myinty, do you not realize that forcibly impregnating a woman and then forcing her to give birth IS slavery?

      Do you not understand that?

      Or do you think that female slaves are just as evil as the slaveowners who forcibly impregnated them? What if one of Ariel Castro’s victims had chosen to abort the pregnancy he forced on her – would you consider her to be just as evil as him?

      I predict that you won’t answer this question. You never do when I ask you.

    • http://itsmyworldcanthasnotyours.blogspot.com/ WMDKitty — Survivor

      It’s hateful because it promotes the reproductive slavery of female-bodied people.

  • myintx

    And, you think PP never lies. lol

    • zoey

      As much as you have? Impossible!

      • fiona64

        Examiner.com is not a reliable source because the reporters are no longer required to verify facts and are allowed to editorialize (it’s one of the reasons I resigned from the reporting staff). So, she’s essentially posting two anti-choice blog articles and trying to use them to prop up her anti-choice position.

        Risible.

    • http://itsmyworldcanthasnotyours.blogspot.com/ WMDKitty — Survivor

      They don’t. PP gives medically accurate information, unlike your precious CPCs.

  • myintx

    Yes I do… I can vote for lawmakers that decide to make stiffer penalties for people who kill their children… I can vote for lawmakers that decide to further restrict killing of unborn children too.

    • fiona64

      Lizzie writes: “You don’t get to decide what is a convenience for anyone but yourself.”

      And myintx responds “Yes I do.”

      What hubris.

    • purr

      What kind of punishment should a woman, once abortion is illegal, get for selfishly murdering her unborn baby? You know, the one she is enslaving.

    • http://itsmyworldcanthasnotyours.blogspot.com/ WMDKitty — Survivor

      Haha NO.

  • fiona64

    Here’s a pro-tip for you. Examiner.com has, unfortunately, turned into what amounts to a blog. The reporters used to be required to report facts and not editorialize (my source is primary; I was one of them). Now they are allowed to post whatever bullshit they want. Not a good source.

    Neither is an anti-choice blog.

  • fiona64

    Is that your new bumper sticker slogan?

  • myintx

    What I am saying is that an unborn child should not be treated like a piece of property (that can be discarded) – it should be treated like the human being that it is and given a right to life.
    Women AND unborn children are human and both deserve a right to LIFE.

    • purr

      What I am saying is that an unborn child should not be treated like a piece of property (that can be discarded)

      You STILL haven’t told us what punishment antebellum slave women should have got for MURDERING their unborn children. You know, after they were raped by the slaveowners.

      Surely you believe that female slaves from that period = slaverowners too, right? After all, they cruelly ‘discarded’ their rape babies.

    • http://itsmyworldcanthasnotyours.blogspot.com/ WMDKitty — Survivor

      What you are saying is that women should be slaves.

    • Niemand

      If the “unborn child” is treated like a person then abortion would be legal up to transition. No person is allowed to use the body of another without his or her consent. Go ahead, look for a precedent. It is not there or, rather, the opposite precedent is there: it is legally established in the US that one person does NOT have the right to use another’s body, even if they will die otherwise.

      You don’t want the fetus to be treated like a human, you want it to have special rights beyond those that any actual person has.

    • Olive Markus

      No. What you are saying is that a woman’s body is not hers. It belongs to whatever and whomever wants to use it, whether that be a fertilized egg, a man, a pregnancy center or a religious order.

      Either the fetus is given full bodily “autonomy” (as we’ve already gone over, it isn’t autonomous, but whatever) or the woman is. You’ve chosen the fetus at the expense of women. Bravo.

      • purr

        It all makes perfect sense if you reduce women to mere objects that were ‘designed’ to make babies.

        Making babies is what women are for

      • Olive Markus

        And that is exactly what religion does. Women exist as sex toys for men and incubators for babies, but the sex is only holy if she doesn’t feel pleasure and if she’s punished with pregnancy.

  • fiona64

    senseless killing of about 1 million unborn babies

    It’s probably a good thing we’re not doing the drinking game … this was a “full beverage” item on the card.

    I think it should probably be the free spot on the BINGO card, just to save time.

  • myintx

    If the father has no money he still should have to pay child support or risk jail time (at least in jail he can’t be makin’ no more babies). A responsible father would get a 2nd or 3rd job to support his child. And, as has been mentioned multiple times before, there are options for pregnant women if they don’t have money.
    And, most problems with pregnancy are avoidable – with proper prenatal care. And, there are complications from abortions too.. except, they are often underreported.

    • zoey

      “And, there are complications from abortions too.. except, they are often underreported.”

      Convenient that evidence that supports your case is underreported. If it’s underreported how do you know about it?

    • purr

      If he has fathered multiple children, even if his wages are garnished, he won’t be able to afford much of anything.

      Sorry, you need to wake up and pay attention to the real world, dear.

      And, most problems with pregnancy are avoidable – with proper prenatal car

      From the articles I have linked, you would find out that a lot of things are NOT avoidable.

      Post partum hemorrhage, even with top notch medical care = not avoidable

      obstetric fistula and other birth injuries = not avoidable

      And you keep forgetting, the very women who need abortions the most, the ones you think should be denied the opportunity BECAUSE THEY ARE TOO POOR, are the ones who will NOT BE ABLE TO AFFORD DOCTOR VISITS

  • fiona64

    Yep. The vast majority of psychotropic meds are not compatible with pregnancy. And since psychotropic meds are not a “one size fits all” deal, the doc can’t just say “Well, we’ll put you on this other one for the next 10 months, since it’s compatible with pregnancy.”

    Ditto hypertension meds (e.g., Lisinopril — which has a very specific warning saying that it should not be taken if a person is, or is planning to be, pregnant) and a whole host of others.

  • myintx

    Nice rebuttal.. NOT

  • purr

    A woman’s reproductive system produces sex hormones and functional
    gametes and also must be able to protect and support a developing embryo
    and nourish the newborn infant.

    The woman’s body tries to protect itself from the embryo by developing a thick uterine lining and, through something called genetic imprinting, her body tries to dampen the effects of the father’s genes which, if left alone, will create a fetus so large THAT IT WILL KILL THE WOMAN. If the woman’s body is unable to dampen the father’s genes, she can also get a nasty uterine cancer.

    I have never said a woman’s LIFE was less important than her unborn child.

    The woman’s HEALTH, however, is less important. Right? This is why we FORCE people to go into burning buildings to save others, right? because the right to life always trumps the right to health?

  • Niemand

    You’re in a hospital and it catches fire. There are only 2 people left
    in the hospital. A toddler and a 90 year old in a medically induced
    coma with no chance of recovery (i.e. would not feel pain of death).

    1. A neurologically healthy person in a medically induced coma never has “no chance of recovery” unless you mean that the coma was induced intentionally to cover the pain of dying of something else and they had no chance of surviving that “something else”. Is that what you meant?
    2. What’s wrong with the toddler? If xe is brain dead and simply on life support as a potential donor I wouldn’t bother trying to save xer. What would be the point?
    3. If the 90 year old really had no chance of recovery (maybe they had a massive stroke and that’s why they’re unconscious) then it was entirely inappropriate of the medical staff not to have a discussion about withdrawal of care with the family. What’s the point of keeping someone’s body alive if their brain is gone?

  • Niemand

    Again, why that distinction?

    Because blacks, jews, and women have brains, thoughts, feelings, and the ability to live independently. Fetuses have none of the above.

    If a fetus should be protected, why shouldn’t an animal with a similar level of neural function be eligible for rights as well? No eating mammals (or wearing their skin) if you believe that third trimester abortion should be illegal. No eating birds or fish if you’re going down to second trimester. No swatting mosquitoes or poisoning cockroaches if you think embryos deserve protection and no antibiotics for you if you’re willing to sacrifice women to save blastulocysts.

  • http://gamesgirlsgods.blogspot.com/ Feminerd

    No. Just no. Women are fully informed- they know an embryo or fetus will probably continue developing and be born eventually. They don’t need unnecessary medical procedures (at their own expense) to try to guilt-trip them and shame them away from something they deem necessary. You’re hiding behind informed consent, but informed consent is a discussion of risks and benefits, not emotion-laden language designed for any specific outcome. The ultrasound before abortion does happen for medical reasons sometimes, but you force it to happen all the time, even when unnecessary. Women never had to look before- now you literally capture their eyes. Doctors never had to describe before- now you literally steal their tongues. How can that not be coercion?

    And yes, a requirement that a woman take a pamphlet on fetal development (especially one as inaccurate at many states require) is indeed coercive.

    It’s not a “rape card”, you smug little privileged brat. 1 in 6 women will be raped. Possibly 1 in 4. A lot. A whole lot. Millions upon millions of women in the United States. You know women who’ve been raped, though they probably haven’t told you thanks to your attitudes. It is a threat every single woman in this country lives with, and the ones most likely to do it are the ones you trust the most- husband, lover, boyfriend, friend, friend-of-a-friend, uncle, family friend, etc. If that rape were to end up in pregnancy, there is absolutely no reason other than pure hatred of women to force a woman to bear the offspring of her rapist, watching his action twist her body and control her life more and more every day. Abortion is healing for many survivors of rape- it lets them regain control over their lives and their bodies. And yes, some rape survivors do keep the child, and they can heal from that too. The point is they chose, and it is the act of choosing that helped them heal. If abortion wasn’t available, it wouldn’t be much of a choice, now would it? I know I linked you the satiric letter from Scalzi- why do you side with the rapists over their victims?

  • purr

    If fiona was all about ‘abortion’ she would have aborted her much WANTED pregnancy after suffering through 9 months of constant vomiting and possible death from the dehydration.

  • Richter_DL

    Aw crud. I am SO devastated. How am I supposed to LIVE now.

    Duely earned, by him. Good to see his taillights.

    • purr

      We’ll always have myintx.

  • fiona64

    Once again, since you appear to be stuck on stupid:

    I support *all* women’s reproductive choices: use or non-use of contraception, gestation or termination, adoption or rearing alone or with a partner of her choice.

    I have said this at *least* 20 times *directly to you.* Once again, it appears that I can explain it to you (repeatedly) … but I cannot understand it for you.

    • http://itsmyworldcanthasnotyours.blogspot.com/ WMDKitty — Survivor

      Unfortunately, you can’t fix stupid…

  • fiona64

    More offensive comparisons between embryos, slaves and Jews during the Holocaust. How many times do you need to be told to knock it the hell off before you actually listen?

  • purr

    Yes, you did say it was totallly acceptable to kill a parasitic twin because, and I quote ‘it isn’t healthy’

    I’m just saying an unborn baby is NOT a parasitic twin

    A
    ZEF has about the same sentience as a parasitic twin. Along with arms
    legs bones hair teeth skin and brain matter. The parasitic twin has
    *everything* that an ‘unborn baby’ has.

    It is healthy and, if not killed or miscarried, will be born.

    Actually,
    there is no proof that the ZEF is ‘healthy’ until it’s born. 20 weeks
    can go by before you can detect that it DOESN’T HAVE A FREAKING BRAIN.
    For starters. The woman can be 24 weeks into the pregnancy and discover
    that the fetus has potter’s syndrome and is slowly dying.

    This
    is why birth has traditionally been the dividing line. Until the ZEF is
    fully formed, it is incomplete – and literally *anything* can go wrong
    while it is being built. Parts get left out – all the time. Genetic
    instructions get misinterpreted and go awry.

    You’re the one who supports killing a healthy human.

    Inflammatory statement.

    And all your posts get flagged before i can comment lol

  • purr

    Health issues amounts to a very small percentage of abortions anyway..

    Because you lie and pretend that pregnancy is the same as a kid eating pizza on the couch.

    CITATION NEEDED for that btw

    Yet you keep bringing it up.. to detract from the fact that women use completely avoidable reasons most of the time to kill their unborn children.

    Yeah..you think 1) health

    is an avoidable reason

    You think 2) poverty

    is an avoidable reason

    You are privileged, and have zero empathy for those less fortunate than you.

    You still haven’t explained to me how someone in the middle of the Congo 100 miles from a doctor, and living in abject poverty IS SUPPOSED TO GET BETTER NUTRITION AND PRE-NATAL CHECKUPS

  • purr

    Is that why you support forced pregnancy through rape?

    Is that why you support the forced pregnancy of female slaves during antebellum slavery?

    Yes, you’re all about ‘human rights’

    /spit

    And as Olive so eloquently stated, you want to give rights to a fetus that no BORN HUMAN has. You want to give the fetus slaveowner’s rights, and turn women into slaves.

    • zoey

      don’t say slave! now she’ll just say that z/e/f is the slave again.

  • purr

    Science on fetus as parasite:

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/7081298.stm

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8115596?dopt=Citation

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17958926

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/37515

    Hitler referred to the Jews as parasites. Pretty sickening isn’t it?

    And the Nazis routinely raped those ‘parasites’ and they were forced to give birth against their will. Looks like YOU have something in common with Hitler:)

  • zoey

    No one deserves a chance at life. We deserve to treat the people who already have life with dignity and respect.

    “FYI: Hitler referred to the Jews as parasites. Pretty sickening isn’t it?”

    ATTENTION YOU PRIVILEGED WASP: you don’t get to tell me SHIT about the holocaust.

  • zoey

    YAAAAWN

  • zoey

    ” The unborn HUMAN should have it’s own right – the right to live and not be killed.”

    Well it doesn’t. If it gets born then it receives its rights — just like you did.

    “To my friends it wasn’t a minor setback. It wasn’t like they waited one week, the mother had the baby and then decided they wanted it back. The process took years. ”

    You don’t get to decide what a minor setback is — I DO.

    “Declaring fetuses to be legal persons with rights would generate countless legal and social dilemmas. Fetuses would have to become dependents for tax and estate purposes, be counted in official census-taking, and be subject to many other laws affecting persons. Wouldn’t every zygote have to have a Social Security Number, as well as a Certificate of Conception? The sheer absurdity of this proposal reveals that society does not think of fetuses as persons in the normal sense at all, and would have great difficulty trying to treat them as such.”

  • Anat

    The continuity between the embryo that gave rise to me is the same as the continuity between myself and the corpse that will arise from me. That doesn’t mean the three should be treated the same way.

  • purr

    What I want is for rape victims to get counseling

    What if they cannot afford counseling? What if counseling won’t make a difference? What if they live in the congo and were kidnapped as 12 year olds and kept as sex slaves and then released huh? What’s your solution to that?

    Tell me, would ‘counseling’ have also been your solution to the problem of antebellum slave women wanting to abort their forced pregnancies?

    . And, then they have that trauma on top of the rape trauma. Many women who were raped decide to keep their babies.

    And it didn’t dawn on you that forced pregnancy and birth from rape can create even MORE trauma.

    And good for the women who decided to keep their babies. However, this does not mean that all rape victims should be FORCED to keep theirs just because some women were allowed the CHOICE to give birth.

    Interesting how you bring up something that accounts for less than 1% of all abortions

    I bring it up because you keep talking about how consent to sex is consent to pregnancy, but we both know you don’t really believe that, you believe that being born with a uterus is consent to pregnancy.

    And, you appear to have more hatred for the unborn baby than for the slimeball of a rapist.

    Yeah, which is why I support COMMUNIST PLOTS SUCH AS OBAMACARE which will provide women with free healthcare so they can GIVE BIRTH TO HEALTHY BABIES.

    Unlike you, I happen to think that healthy babies are a good thing, which is why I support free healthcare.

    put your fingers in your ears and avoid the fact that most abortions are for selfish reasons like ‘not the right time for a baby’, ‘would interfere with my plans’ etc……. lalalalala

    IS THAT WHY YOU WON’T GESTATE AN IVF EMBRYO???????

    • zoey

      <3 thiiiiiis

  • zoey

    ” So that they don’t kill their unborn baby in haste and then realize days/weeks/months later that they killed an innocent unborn baby.”

    Are all pregnant people too stupid to know that a pregnancy turns into a baby or just people who have been raped?

    “Many women who were raped decide to keep their babies.”

    Good for them. That was their decision. Lots (if not more) pregnant people feel otherwise. You don’t get to tell people how to feel.

    “Rape and abortion are both wrong. They both involve attacks on innocent victims.”

    Abortion is wrong TO YOU. Abortion is not wrong to everyone. You don’t get to tell other people how to live.

    “Interesting how you bring up something that accounts for less than 1% of all abortions.”

    Kind of how you always bring up post viability abortions even though they’re such a small percentage of abortions?

    “La la La la… put your fingers in your ears and avoid the fact that most abortions are for selfish reasons like ‘not the right time for a baby’, ‘would interfere with my plans’ etc……. lalalalala”

    How ironic that you accuse us of not listening. Being selfish isnt the end of the world. I want every person who is pregnant to do what is right for THEIR lives. If you see that as selfish, that’s your problem.

    ANY ANY ANY ANY ANY ANY ANY ANY ANY REASON a person wants an abortion is good enough. You know, the same way you selfishly WONT get pregnant for another person via IVF.

  • Olive Markus

    They are perfectly comparable. Two unwanted things in her body. She has the right to evict anything unwanted from her body. Apologies to rape survivors: an unwanted penis does relatively little harm compared to an unwanted pregnancy. Why so much concern for the woman when it comes to a little ol’ penis but none otherwise?

    I need a shower after spitting that out.

    • purr

      Because, the penis is attached to something that isn’t ‘innocent’.

      It comes down to what fiona keeps saying – the ZEF is a blank slate. It is a nonexistent person, and a nonexistent person is composed of rainbows and unicorns.

      • Olive Markus

        True enough!

  • purr

    Raising taxes to give money to support homeless people does not biologically enslave you.

    It does not take your organs, silly.

    Oh, and helping homeless people through social programs is a good thing – unless you just loooooooove higher crime rates and disease.

    • zoey

      They can help themselves, jejune. Have they even thought about checking their wallets, maybe there’s an insurance card in there.

  • zoey

    Sounds like you’re admitting it is hypcritical to try to support abolishing abortion and forcing women into adoption without having gone through the adoption process yourself.

  • purr

    But you’re a hypocrite if you support that law without trying to alleviate the problem first by taking in some homeless people.

    As Lizzie said, you are admitting it is hypocritical to abolish abortion while refusing to 1) gestate an ivf embryo yourself 2) adopt a special needs child

    You do realize you have ZERO reason not to do either of the above right?

    You are healthy. I will assume that you are fertile. You probably make a good living. You have absolutely NO excuse not to gestate an ivf baby and adopt a special needs child.

    • zoey

      “You are healthy. I will assume that you are fertile.”

      doubtful. very doubtful. I’d assume she’s very mentally unstable (fetus obsession) and at least 50 years old. But she should at least try.

      IT COULD SAVE SOMEONES LIFE

      • purr

        Don’t be ableist!!

        mytinx should get *counseling* for her unhealthy fetus obsession!

      • http://itsmyworldcanthasnotyours.blogspot.com/ WMDKitty — Survivor

        And meds, meds will help with the anxiety and the OCD.

        /painful experience

    • http://itsmyworldcanthasnotyours.blogspot.com/ WMDKitty — Survivor

      Ugh, I wouldn’t inflict her on a poor innocent child. Kids deserve better.

  • zoey

    From the article: “The video, released by youth-led pro-life group Live Action”

    Live action is not factual. At all. Of course it’s made up, it was made by Liar-Rose.

  • Lyric

    There is a difference between your money and your person. See also all discussions of child support.

  • purr

    Again, with the dehumanization of an unborn human being

    You’re the one who thinks Nepalese women who are going blind from pregnancy and can’t get to a doc, let alone afford one (or food for that matter) should just stop being such selfish sluts and suck it up.

    No, you don’t have an argument as to why you would force other women to risk blindness, yet avoid gestating an ivf embryo yourself.

    So you fall back on the old, tired, worn out argument ‘but it’s an unborn baby’. Which, btw, isn’t an argument. And it isn’t convincing anyone of anything other than the fact that you are desperate and cannot defend your position.

  • purr

    http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_ls6w7phG8f1qi68z9.jpg

    You’ve seen this what…10x by now?

  • Olive Markus

    You asked how many abortions occurred with just one cell. Here, let me quote you:

    “And, what percent of abortions happen when its just one cell???

    That’s different than a clump of cells.

    Not that it really matters.

    By the way, IVF embryos aren’t single-celled, either. They are the same clump of cells you cry bloody murder over if a woman decides she doesn’t want it in her uterus anymore.

    • purr

      Well, what confuses me is that they say that a zygote has the same moral value as a newborn.

      That a zygote IS A BABY.

      Then, they spend all of their time talking about third trimester abortions.

      You bring up zygotes, and they point out that abortions don’t happen at the single cell stage.

      But..why should it matter WHEN the abortion occurs, if the zygote is given the exact same value as a newborn, as a 10 year old, as 50 year old?

  • Chalkdust

    What Gosnell did was already illegal. That’s why he was arrested, tried, convicted, and imprisoned. The law did not stop him for a very long time. How do you suppose passing more anti-abortion laws is going to stop anyone else like him?

    Now, when you talk about the fact that the laws weren’t
    enforced, you almost have a point. And if the pro-life movement cared enough about women to say, “I don’t want you to have an abortion, but if you do, I want it to be somewhere clean and safe for you,” that would be great–something that both sides could agree on. The problem, though, is that regulations to protect women from people like Gosnell–something the pro-choice movement wants–have a nasty habit of getting hijacked by the pro-life movement and turned into “There is mud on the floor of the entry on a rainy day! Therefore, we have an excuse to pretend we think that the entire clinic is unhygenic! Let’s close it!” So in some sense you are blaming the pro-choice movement for…not rolling over and letting their opponents do whatever they want. The “barrier to care” argument doesn’t mean that the pro-choice movement wants to allow abortion providers to hurt women. The “barrier to care” argument happens because the pro-life movement has no interest in compromise or cooperation, even when doing so will save women’s lives and not doing so won’t save any fetal lives.

  • zoey

    Please read the thread, you’re looking quite foolish.

  • purr

    Do you consider blastocysts to be unborn babies yes or no?

  • http://gamesgirlsgods.blogspot.com/ Feminerd

    Sigh. No. Not only is it literally not capable of feeling or thinking, it doesn’t have the right to use anyone’s body. The whole personhood thing is a red herring- you’re still wrong, but it’s also irrelevant to the main point. No one gets to use someone else’s body when that person doesn’t want it. Ever. Period. Not even a fetus.

  • Lyric

    Who the hell cares if it’s less than one percent? It still bloody matters. As does Rosie, who you apparently couldn’t give two shits about. Have you even acknowledged her existence, except to dismiss her as a minority?

    • purr

      Nope!

  • Olive Markus

    Does the fetus use the woman’s body to grow or does it grow entirely on its own pulling sustenance out of thin air?

    I’ve seen the destruction of a woman’s body. It’s seen as normal that a woman’s abdominal wall splits, arteries are severed, abdomens are sliced open to pull the baby out and pelvic floors rip open. I call that destruction.

    Sorry.

    I don’t care if the sex was consensual or not, a person has a right to decide they don’t want to go through with it.

    If you care so much about taking responsibility for consensual activities, then you’ll take responsibility the next time you’re in some kind of accident, right? It isn’t anybody else’s problem that you need emergency or medical care if you procured it during an activity you consented to. It’s yours. Suck it up and deal with it.

  • purr

    Actually, we aren’t doing that at all.

    We are talking about the fact that you are so cold that you would rather see a woman kill herself because she cannot handle a forced pregnancy than see that woman get a mentally health saving abortion.

  • Olive Markus

    I will state again:

    If you don’t see any problem with the mass murder and torture of IVF embryos, then you have no right to use the word “Unborn Child” to refer to the exact same embryo in a woman’s uterus, nor do you have any right to force a woman to “protect” that “Unborn Child.” You don’t care about protecting the embryos dumped from a petri dish, so you cannot pretend to care about the embryo in a woman’s body.

    You just want women to endure certain consequences so that she is planted firmly in her “proper place.” End of story.

  • http://gamesgirlsgods.blogspot.com/ Feminerd

    Rosie. And tsara. And Alix. And a few other people on this board alone. They all would rather suicide than give birth. It’s really not that uncommon.

    EDIT: And jejune.

    EDIT 2: And wmdkitty.

    EDIT 3: And Lizzie.

    • purr

      Add me to that list.

      • http://gamesgirlsgods.blogspot.com/ Feminerd

        Done!

    • http://itsmyworldcanthasnotyours.blogspot.com/ WMDKitty — Survivor

      And me. I will happily claw my uterus out if I have to, and if that kills me, so be it, I’ll die knowing I did everything I could to get that thing out of me.

      • purr

        Aren’t you just sick and tired of the incredibly arrogant pro-lifers?

      • http://itsmyworldcanthasnotyours.blogspot.com/ WMDKitty — Survivor

        Sick and tired is the understatement of the night, man. Try absolutely disgusted at these… people… trying to dictate my choices for me.

      • purr

        It’s all my fault too.

        I made the mistake of pointing out that Norm is pro 1) forced sex 2) forced pregnancy 3) slut shaming

        And the rest is history!

  • fiona64

    Your behavior has become less and less humane over the past few days … and your dismissiveness of Rosie’s concerns is vile. Flagged for hate speech.

  • fiona64

    I’m sorry that subtle distinctions about reality are lost on you.

  • fiona64

    You are deliberately trolling at this point. And you’ve been flagged for it.