Force Your Wife to do Things Your Way – More “Red Pill” Silliness

Force Your Wife to do Things Your Way – More “Red Pill” Silliness January 30, 2020

One thing is for sure, Larry Solomon of Biblical Gender Roles as taken up the flag of the men’s rights activists and is trying to shoehorn their views into his own. Larry is talking of “Frame” today – translation for regular folks, the established framework you do not have to keep discussing that happens in most marriages. The agreed upon direction of your lives. Fundies love to call it “World View” But most marriages do not run “Frame” like  some sort of weird, weak, wimpy guy feeling threatened by every aspect of his wife, like these guys  do.

We start with this  quote from the red pillin’ blogger Rollo Tomassi:

In psych terms, frame is an often subconscious, mutually acknowledged personal narrative under which auspices people will be influenced. One’s capacity for personal decisions, choices for well-being, emotional investments, religious beliefs and political persuasions (amongst many others) are all influenced and biased by the psychological narrative ‘framework’ under which we are most apt to accept as normalcy…

One important fact to consider, before I launch into too much detail, is to understand that frame is NOT power. The act of controlling the frame may be an exercise in power for some, but let me be clear from the start that the concept of frame is who’s ‘reality’ in which you choose to operate in relation to a woman. Both gender’s internalized concept of  frame is influenced by our individual acculturation, socialization, psychological conditioning, upbringing, education, etc., but be clear on this, you are either operating in your own frame or you’re operating in hers

Wow, living in a life where you have to control others in order to get your way, calling it ‘Frame’ sounds exhausting. While boundaries are important in marriage and these are all things you need to work out as a couple before you marry, one person controlling the other just leads to disaster, be it husband or wife. These silly immature tantrumming males are unsafe at any speed for anyone.

“Later in the same post he states “Her genuine (unnegotiated) desire for you hinges upon you covertly establishing this narrative for her”.   Basically, he is saying the man should bring the woman into his frame without her knowing he is trying to bring her into his frame.  Essentially Tomassi is calling on men to perform the Red Pill equivalent of Jedi mind tricks on women. “

As opposed to Christian Funda-Gelical Jedi Mind tricks involving brow-beating that same wife into submission with Bible verses?

“According to Red Pill, if a man attempts to bring a woman into his frame (i.e. worldview) by overt or coercive measures he defeats the central focus of Red Pill ideology – to get a woman to have “genuine (unnegotiated)” sexual desire toward him.”

That is not how sexual desire works! It’s not a matter of manipulating a woman in any way. Part of it is chemistry and attraction and the other part is DO NOT BE A MALE SEXUAL ORGAN IN YOUR BEHAVIOR  TOWARDS HER! It really is that simple. You want regular sex? Don’t act like an anus.

More Tomassi:

“In most contemporary marriages and LTR arrangements, women tend to be the de facto authority. Men seek their wive’s “permission” to attempt even the most mundane activities they’d do without an afterthought while single. I have married friends tell me how ‘fortunate’ they are to be married to such an understanding wife that she’d “allow” him to watch hockey on their guest bedroom TV,…occasionally

What these men failed to realize is that frame, like power, abhors a vacuum.  In the absence of the frame security a woman naturally seeks from a masculine male, this security need forces her to provide that security for herself.”

Here is the thing I do not ‘get’ The most obvious thing. Why are these people not talking to each other? Why no basic consideration for each other? In this egalitarian household if I come into the bedroom to watch tv and the husband is laying on the bed reading, or napping I will ask “Hey, do you mind if I watch ‘World’s Dumbest Gringos’ or ‘My Big Fat Jailhouse Bar Mitzvahs’?” and if he says yes he minds I shift my television viewing to another room.  I get the same question from him, “Would it bother you if I watch ‘The Three Stoogies’ or the Impeachment hearings?” and he also will abide by my wishes.

This is basic human respect for the other person. It’s not linked to genitals. It’s having consideration for your partner. Basic, basic stuff that these clueless guys do not understand.

Larry goes on to state that Tomassi is wrong only in one thing, using covert means, manipulation to bring the  woman in line with the weak male’s wishes. But then he goes here, and it sounds like more of the same garbage just dressed up in a different gift wrap. This is also manipulation, Larry-style:

I have a friend of mine whose son recently married. But before he married his wife, they had kind of a rocky dating relationship. They actually broke up twice before getting back together a third time and then getting engaged and eventually married.

The reason they broke up is because his son was establishing his frame during the dating relationship, his Christian world view, including his belief in Biblical gender roles and the man being the head of the woman in all things. If she would rebel against his leadership on any issue, he would send her away and wait for her to come back and repent. Each time she attempted to take control of the frame or really the worldview under which their relationship would operate, he would remind her that as a couple they would operate in his worldview or they would not be a couple at all.

Red Pill is right that women deep down want men to establish the frame of their relationship. Some women will of course test the man’s resolve but eventually submit to his worldview. But where Red Pill is wrong is that this is not true for all women. There are some women who will constantly battle to control the frame of their relationship with a man. And some will not reveal their true intent to control the frame until after marriage.

And just like that I cannot take any more toxic Larry for today.

Please, if you take nothing else away from this just talk to your partner, learn to be considerate of each other and get the heck away from controlling and manipulative men.

~~~~~~

Updates from yesterdays Lori Alexander drama:

Today there has been subtle racism:

and a number of folks calling her out for lying over the entire thing:

Kind of says it all. Lori lies.

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Suzanne Titkemeyer went from a childhood in Louisiana to a life lived in the shadow of Washington D.C. For many years she worked in the field of social work, from national licensure to working hands on in a children's residential treatment center. Suzanne has been involved with helping the plights of women and children' in religious bondage. She is a ordained Stephen's Minister with many years of counseling experience. Now she's retired to be a full time beach bum in Tamarindo, Costa Rica with the monkeys and iguanas. She is also a thalassophile. She also left behind years in a Quiverfull church and loves to chronicle the worst abuses of that particular theology. She has been happily married to her best friend for the last 33 years. You can read more about the author here.
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What Are Your Thoughts?leave a comment
  • Friend

    wive’s

    Look, I know typos happen, but this is not something I’ve seen before.

  • Tawreos

    I am terrible at relationships and I am deeply grateful for the red pill guys and people like Larry, because at least there are people worse than I am at them. It seems the problem with all of them is that everything is all or nothing. Either you are in control or you are being controlled. Either she is seeing things your way or you are seeing things hers. It never occurs tot hem that a relationship is about sharing. Sharing control, and outlooks. If you can’t do that then you shouldn’t be in a relationship.

  • Raging Bee

    Wow, that’s a lotta big words and a lotta abstractions when they could have just said “gaslighting.”

    You want regular s3x? Don’t act like an @nus.

    What if I want regular @nal s3x? (Asking for a friend.)

  • Raging Bee

    Lot’s of peep’s make such mistake’s.

  • Callace

    Seems to me that what these guys really need to do to have any hope of fixing (or getting) a marriage is to take a good hard look at their own authoritarian frame, and realise that it doesn’t have to be that way.

  • ThatGuy

    I’m convinced that “frame” is why so many straight marriages fail.
    My husband and I can’t rely on gender stereotypes or half the work wouldn’t get done. So we talk. All the time.
    It’s not a burden to talk to the man I love. Nor is it unnecessary or silly. This isn’t his marriage, it’s ours. All of it. So we both have to give our input. Nobody has any assigned roles. That’s silly. We both have things we gravitate toward: he’s a way better cook than me, but I’m not helpless in the kitchen. I’m better at managing bills than him, but he’s not an idiot2 when it comes to money.

  • Tawreos

    I can ask my own questi….never mind me, what was that you were asking for your friend? =)

  • Friend
  • AFo

    People are not programmable. They will not respond to every situation the same way. Personality, temperament, context, and so many other factors affect a person’s reactions and responses. This “frame” nonsense won’t work, just like their “pickup artist” bs2 didn’t work, because women are humans and not interchangeable cogs in a machine.

  • Polytropos

    Same here. I’ve long since accepted I am not relationship material, but these red p&#8203ill specimens keep me reassured that I’m a functional adult.

  • Tawreos

    I will say that I am ready to feel bad for my awful relationship abilities if we can get rid of all the mind sets that they represent. little pain for me, a lot of relief for so much of the whole planet. =)

  • Polytropos

    We are making progress as a culture, but unfortunately progress is like the future. It’s not evenly distributed.

  • ephemerol

    There’s an undercurrent out there of male culture, of paternalism, of “traditional values,” that’s predicated on low self-worth in which the assumed basis for any relationship between them and the opposite sex is power, control, and manipulation. It assumes that no one, on their own, would want to stay with them voluntarily, or at least that it’s unreasonable to risk letting something like that be out of one’s direct control.

    You can’t just be a reasonable, tolerable human being who seeks to relate to others on the basis of mutual self-respect. And it’s just not “manly” to be equal, and be put in the position of having to negotiate. You have to establish a power structure, that you are above her, that you dictate down to her, and that her role is to submit and accept her lot. So it’s your job as a “man” to be d1ckish.

    It’s a very unhealthy view of how to relate to a significant other, but it requires an even more jaundiced view of oneself than of women. You would think that this kind of narcissistic behavior would arise from a sense of superiority and entitlement, and it does, to be sure, but it can also come from an opposite sense as well, one of inferiority, scarcity, and profound neediness.

    But these are the assumptions that underpin Red Pill, incels, the pick-up community, etc. And you find no pushback within the religious community, because all of this stuff is part of traditional, paternalistic, religious values, going all the way back to antiquity, when the second-class citizenship of women was systematic and normative for all the same reasons back then, too, I have little doubt. Religious people are blind to abusive relationships because it’s normal, and they’ve been taught that god engineered it to be that way in the garden of Eden.

  • “Lori lies.”

    And in other news, water is wet.

  • Tawreos

    I have a new one if there comes a time when water is wet isn’t cutting it for you. I saw an ad on patheos this morning that said: “The British Royal Family Tree Reveals Some Members Are Related To One Another.”. It made me laugh, but it did destroy my hope for the future of humanity.

  • Tawreos

    Sadly, this is not the dumbest ad I have seen today as I saw an ad for whole grain, gluten free popcorn.

  • ephemerol

    Here is the thing I do not ‘get’ The most obvious thing. Why are these people not talking to each other? Why no basic consideration for each other?

    What? Are you crazy? If you “talk,” if you just ask for what you want, then that’s doing things above board. The point of the game is that everything has to be done covertly. If you reveal to your opponent what you want, then you’ve just given the whole game away. Now you’ll never get it, because the whole point of the game is keep your opponent from getting anything they want. Don’t you know that love is war? /s

    “Love is a battlefield.” —Pat Benatar

  • Janet Freiheit

    Well, I’ll give Larry one thing, he’s predictable, not to mention wordy to the point of insanity. This is a man truly in love with himself. I shudder what it must be like to be in his august presence and listen to his pompous, verbose tirades on proper gender relationships. Pass the cyanide please!

  • persephone

    I got put in twitter jail over a tweet regarding the royal family’s family tree that looks like Charlie Brown’s Christmas tree, although with slightly more colorful language.

  • persephone

    A man who controls9 his wife by withholding her pain9 medic9ation, then admits to rap9ing her when she refus9es due to her pain9, is someone that should be tarred9 and feathered9 and run out of town on a rail9.

  • Ruthitchka

    Wow to all of this. That newly married couple Larry mentions–the poor girl should have stayed away when her on-and-off boyfriend sent her away. I am afraid he’ll start hitting her eventually.

    As for all this “Frame,” stuff, it reminds me of the premise of “The Quiet Man,” starring John Wayne and Maureen O’Hara. Essentially, she won’t respect him until he bosses her around. I, on the other hand, love and respect people who treat me with love and respect. Maybe I’m too “modern!”

  • Suzanne Harper Titkemeyer

    LOL That would have been worth twitter Jail

  • Suzanne Harper Titkemeyer

    He’s so utterly “average” at best I am betting he is meek and mild around everyone but the wife and kids

  • Suzanne Harper Titkemeyer

    I have to laugh when I’m at the store and see something that has never had gluten marked “Gluten Free” suddenly, like a bag of white sugar.

  • Raging Bee

    We should be passing the cyanide — to Larry, not you.

  • Martin Penwald

    The good ol’ way!

  • Martin Penwald

    Is there anything with Marion Morrison in it that is not despicably toxic?

  • Saraquill

    I once saw gluten-free mouthwash for sale.

  • Saraquill

    Once again, I hope they marry one another. Even Rosie Palm and the five sisters deserve better.

  • Allison the Great

    This comment is the most accurate description of Larry, Tim Bayly and all of the others that I have ever read. Well put.

  • Suzanne Harper Titkemeyer

    The weirdest one I saw was here, gluten free intimate wash

  • Allison the Great

    One of my aunts is married to a guy like that. I have always hated the man, so I’d never call him my uncle. In the workplace he’s a whiny infant, at home, he’s a tyrant. He knows how insignificant he is in the outside world and he takes his dissatisfaction with this knowledge out on his family.

  • Allison the Great

    I met a guy who worked at a meat counter at Whole Foods and had someone ask if steak was gluten free.

  • Mimc

    My husband asks me before going out and I ask him for one very simple reason. We have a toddler. We can’t both make plans on there same evening without arranging a babysitter. It has nothing to do with control or “frame”. Everything is a weird power game to guys like this isn’t it?

  • Friend

    When our schedules got super complicated, we started using an electronic calendar on our phones. Turns out I’ve been undermining him by entering my hair appointments. Who knew?

  • Jennifer

    Ohh my gosh, Rollo. When Roosh was mentioned here a couple weeks ago or so, I was picturing Rollo the whole time, have been ever since and didn’t realize my mistake until now. But now my memory’s cleared up: Roosh wrote a comedy-type book about a real vacation he took (where he was actually disastrous with a foreign woman) and I remember he DID mention his sister, who it was clear he was very close with. I didn’t realize he ever wrote about rape in a bad way until it was mentioned here, and I REALLY hope he had a real conversion and repented of that. A mainstream comp guy is typically much less toxic than the stuff peddled in the manosphere.

    Rollo, on the other hand, was a big smart-mouth 3doosh who acted like he was an expert at dating and sadly, last time I saw any profile of his about a decade ago, was with a woman. Hope he’s not anymore.

  • ephemerol

    Putting that down in writing got me to thinking. There’s a few other things I’ll never understand. First, how do you know just how sh1tty you have to treat her? If you treat her too sh1tty, she’ll start making plans to escape, and you can’t have that, but not sh1tty enough and then she might start to remember she used to have some self-esteem before she met you, and you can’t have that either. Seems like it must be a very fine tightrope you have to walk all the time. That must be exhausting. Next, how do you sleep at night knowing you’ve given her every reason she needs to want to murdеr you in your sleep? Oh yes, I almost forgot, and how do you sleep at night knowing you’re such a sh1tty excuse for a human being? So first you’re exhausted, and then you can’t even get a decent night’s sleep? How do these guys manage it? Isn’t it easier to just not be trash?

    Along the lines of a cross between Fleabag and Monty Python, I’m sure there’s an amazing British comedy lurking in this somewhere.

  • Jenn H

    So the Larry / Tomassi approach to relationships is “I reject your reality and substitute my own.”

  • Astrin Ymris

    I’ve reached the point of viewing every unsolicited phone call talking about computer security as a scam, And when I Google it, I’m almost always right.

  • Astrin Ymris

    I’m hoping she’ll grow a spine and divorce him.

  • Astrin Ymris

    It’s possible that he’s meek and mild at home, too. Remember, people lie on the internet. It may be that his online persona is his wish fulfillment fantasy.

    Good, I hope so!

  • Friend

    It’s amazing how many calls I get from “Bill1 from Wind0ws.”

    Actually, “Beeeel fraam Veeendohs.”

    Which is not what Bill1 Gates1 sounds like.

  • NoOne of Consequence

    Ugh. Seriously, dude? Seems to me Mens Rights Activists need a political movement because they’re too weak to stand up for themselves individually. Don’t blame women, kid, this is all you. Side note, are there gay MRAs? I’ve never heard of one. Who would they project all their faults on, twinks?

    Personally, I learned the importance of communication the hard way. I was in a relationship for 9 years and we never once had an argument until the last year of it. In retrospect, clearly bad. On the other retrospect it turns out she has BPD so communication wouldn’t have helped much. But I did learn some valuable lessons I will be sure to remember if I ever find a woman to date here in the boons.

  • Susan Montgomery

    LISTER: That’s rich, you know. I mean, coming from the man who’s favourite book is “How To Pick Up Girls By Hypnosis.”
    RIMMER: There’s nothing wrong with that, Lister. It’s a good book. Full of handy hints as well, and it works.
    LISTER: Get outta town.
    RIMMER: That’s how I met Lorraine — by hypnotising her.
    LISTER: You hypnotised a girl into going out with you?
    RIMMER: Yes. I gave her the old “there’s something in your eye technique, fixed her with a mesma-stare, and bingo — she agreed to come on a date.
    LISTER: You’re a sad weasel of a man, you know that, Rimmer?
    RIMMER: No, it’s just that I’m ill at ease with the opposite sex.
    LISTER: It’s because you see them as some alien species that needs to be conquered with trickery. They’re not — they’re people. You don’t need your book on hypnosis and, and… what’s the other one? “1001 Fabulous Chat-up Lines.”

    Red Dwarf

  • Raging Bee

    LISTER: The reason you need hypnosis to get laid is that you’re a TOTAL SMEGHEAD!

  • Raging Bee

    “…because men are real and women are just too emotional.”

  • Iain Lovejoy

    I’m guessing Tomassi is not, in fact, married?
    I’m with Raging Bee below when they say that “gaslighting” would be a decent summary of the entire scree of psychobabble above. The aim seems to be to create and operate an entirely fake persona that you think a woman might like in order to get her to sleep with you. As a “pick up” technique, so long as you try it often enough, it is going to occasionally work, since once in a while someone is bound to fall for it (although I suspect simply trying being friendly and pleasant to enough people and seeing if you get on with any of them might actually have a higher success rate overall).
    Tomassi seems to be then applying his “expertise” to actual relationships, an area I somehow doubt he has any experience in or success at. The psychobabble about “frames” I think hides that he really doesn’t understand how people or relationships work. Firstly, the gaslighting fails at the point where he realises the woman is attracted to the fake persona, not him, and there is no actual relationship there. Secondly, I don’t think he understands that what he’s trying to run is a “bait and switch” con. He’s got a woman attracted to or even in love with the fake persona he has created for the purpose, and is then trying to substitute for this the controlling [expletive deleted] that is actually him. He’s probably right that the kind of personality his fake persona is going to attract will most likely prefer someone else to take the lead, but his mistake is in thinking that it is his manly male manliness that that’s the attraction, rather than that his fake persona actually appears to like her and be considerate and nice.
    This to me will end up with the kind of dynamic where the poor sap he has managed to hook is constantly trying to work out what happened to “the man she fell in love with” (to use a rather sexist cliche) and, not realising he never actually existed in the first place, sticking around in the hope he’ll come back, whilst he is over and over again having to bring back the fake persona to hook her again, because every time he tries to abandon it and use his assertive manly manliness to get things to how he wants, he finds it doesn’t work and she doesn’t actually even like the real him.
    Larry’s method is the same, although with added abuse and intimidation as well when the assertive manly manliness fails.
    Taking a guess at Larry’s couple (in so far as it’s not just made up) I’m guessing the the incidents of “rebelling against leadership” is where the man tried to dump the fake persona and be what he was really like, and the “repentance” when the woman came back trying to rekindle the fake relationship they had before he did so.

  • texassa

    These people are mentally ill.

  • lady_black

    The “Framer Dude” has apostropheitis. He wrote “who’s” which is a contraction of “who is” when I think he meant “whose” which is a possessive form of “who.” He also writes “gender’s.” LOL. Gender’s WHAT??? Finish the sentence, Dude.
    Sorry. That’s a pet peeve of mine. Unneeded apostrophe use changes the entire meaning of language, making an otherwise intelligent (but not in THIS case) comment appear to be ridiculous.

  • Brian Curtis

    Gee, and here I was thinking that all relationships involved people starting from different viewpoints and assumptions and then working toward common ground, or else calling it quits if it seems like too much effort and compromise on both sides would be required. You know, like sensible people who view and treat others as fully human. Shows what I know! (Of course, I am single, so maybe I should have been trying to seize control all this time like the geniuses cited above?)

  • Brian Curtis

    Hey, unfair! You can’t accuse these guys of being dishonest. Not a one of them is “acting.”

  • Brian Curtis

    Sure, he made a couple guest appearances on Laugh-In.

  • Kay L.

    gay1 mras are extremely rare because they have no need of a false victim1 complex as a means of self-comfort (because they’re legitimately oppressed1) and they have no resentment of women voters n the basis of sexual1 rejection. those things are pretty much the cornerstones of the ideology.

  • Kay L.

    mentally ill people are a lot more likely to be the victims of abuse than the perpetrators. this is fundamentally a problem with values and male entitlement.

  • Kay L.

    ‘women voters’ i mean there’s a non-zero number of mras who are against female suffrage but i obviously meant ‘women on the’. thanks autocomplete.

  • katiehippie

    I saw little packets of Kool aid labeled “low sugar”. Well yeah, until you put in all the sugar you need to stand drinking the stuff.