The Essence of Quiverfull

The Essence of Quiverfull October 6, 2019
Smashed china is still broken china at the end of the day. You cannot rename it something like a mosaic unless it is one. Just like Quiverfull cannot claim that it does not exist. It is what it is.

Recently I have received messages, emails and comments here claiming that Quiverfull is not a real thing, that it does not exist. That it’s a buzz word made up for Vyckie Garrison and endlessly perpetuated by me. That this is all some enormous scam of some sort instead of a lifestyle.

I lived it for some years. So did Vyckie and many others. It has many names, not just Quiverfull. That’s the name we knew it by, but I’ve seen it called the Replenishment movement, and a handful of other names. If you attend a church, or believe that you are supposed to eschew birth control and have as many arrows as the Lord will provide no matter the health realities you face, even death, then guess what, you ARE Quiverfull.

The Duggar family denies they are Quiverfull, yet they line up with each and every one of it’s beliefs. They follow Bill Gothard of IBLP who teaches Quiverfull. They are Quiverfull no matter what name they call themselves.

It crosses denomination boundaries and seems to leave a pile of those harmed by it in its wake. It’s a movement that seems to be dying down some. But there are enough people still promoting it to provide plenty of fodder for NLQ. Like Steven Anderson of Faithful Word Baptist Church and his wife Zsuzsanna, who, at times, has seemed to resent the constant childbearing.

Zsuzsanna Anderson wrote this recently on her Facebook page in honor of her eldest child Solomon’s 18th birthday. Notice it’s all about the hardships and wonders of Quiverfull more than it is about Solomon. Poor kid used again as a prop to promote their religious theology.

I have to wonder what happened to his recent courtship and engagement.

What happens if you don’t use birth control?

I got married at age 21. A little over a year later, our firstborn, Solomon, was born.

Tomorrow, he turns 18, while my youngest is 6 days old.

That means that in almost exactly 18 years, I have birthed 11 babies, which works out to an average 21.6 months age gap between each of the kids. This is due to extended and exclusive breastfeeding, which naturally spaces pregnancies at healthy intervals.

Of the 230 months I have been married, I have spent approximately 100 months pregnant. If you have any experience at all with pregnant women, I think that fact right there deserves a trophy, both for myself as well as my husband!

No, it isn’t always easy. In fact, every day has its challenges, and the more kids there are, the more directions I’m being stretched. But with that stretching comes growth, strength, and resilience. Parents grow as much as their kids, if not more. Life is not meant to be easy, but through God it can be blessed and prosperous nonetheless.

I am thankful for our oldest kids, who patiently put up with us when we parents were barely more than kids ourselves. Happy Birthday, Solomon! My youngest changes every couple of years, but you have always been my big guy.

“And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.” 2 Corinthians 12:9

Yes, God’s grace might be sufficient for Zsu, but so much of what she’s posted about the day to day reality of having enough children to staff a baseball team sounds like things not to aspire to.

Kids that horde food even as she writes up menus and cookbooks on providing meal plans for a large family. The food hording situation is possibly the most worrying thing about the Anderson family. Children horde food when they aren’t sure they’ll be fed. We see this particularly in unstable families where the parents have proven to be either too controlling, or unable to consistently feed the kids. They learn to avoid hunger they must take every advantage to hide food when it can be sneaked.

Children in a family that does not always put their safety first. Sure, anyone can have issues with their home, but the mold situation that took so long to resolve, and went unnoticed by Zsuzsanna risks their future health.

Denial of vaccinations and possibly even timely medical care. In nearly all of the Anderson family births the babies experience a tongue tie. To the point where several of her babies seemed to struggle to gain weight for quite some while before she has the tongue tie dealt with.

Living crammed together in a tiny home. It’s not quite as bad as when Jim Bob and Michelle Duggar lived in the three bedroom brick house before the tin mansion was built, but looking at the Anderson house it does not seem possible that it contains the recommended square footage per person. Many articles I have seen about this issue recommend anywhere from 400 to 700 square feet per person to make a home comfortable for everyone. Not to say you cannot live on less, but it’s not optimal.

And there are many more things that the Anderson’s fail to do to make sure their children have the best chance at a healthy adulthood. What else do you think they need?

This is the reality of Quiverfull and some of the problems that go along with it. It promotes some rather unhealthy scenarios and realities. It does exist!

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Comments open below

NLQ Recommended Reading …

Quiverfull: Inside the Christian Patriarchy Movement by Kathryn Joyce

I Fired God by Jocelyn Zichtermann

13:24 A Dark Thriller by M Dolon Hickmon

About Suzanne Titkemeyer
Suzanne Titkemeyer went from a childhood in Louisiana to a life lived in the shadow of Washington D.C. For many years she worked in the field of social work, from national licensure to working hands on in a children's residential treatment center. Suzanne has been involved with helping the plights of women and children' in religious bondage. She is a ordained Stephen's Minister with many years of counseling experience. Now she's retired to be a full time beach bum in Tamarindo, Costa Rica with the monkeys and iguanas. She is also a thalassophile. She also left behind years in a Quiverfull church and loves to chronicle the worst abuses of that particular theology. She has been happily married to her best friend for the last 33 years. You can read more about the author here.

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What Are Your Thoughts?leave a comment
  • Melissa

    Surely this cannot be your response to me, correct? This does not even hardly cover all my issues.

    You are very busy, I understand. I will be patient.

  • Suzanne Harper Titkemeyer

    The most you will ever get out of me after your nasty email. Be gone! You only want to fight and blame no interest in learning anything. What did you expect after calling me a “”Cult Leader”.? Take your offended derrière elsewhere

  • Melissa

    That is UNFAIR! And that is NOT what I said! My email was NOT nasty!

    I said THIS!
    Curiously, and with all due respect: Your website matches up more along the lines of what a cult is more than Quiverfull does. You are the head leader. No dissent allowed, you just repeatedly delete and threatened to ban me. Clearly a lot of group think is taking place. How dare I dare criticize the founder!

    It was a commentary about how “cult” is a meaningless term and can be haphazardly applied!

    Why do you keep lying about me and calling me rude when I am being anything but such!?

  • WallofSleep
  • Melissa

    Also unfair.You are not even aware of the original email, so how would you even know?

  • Melissa

    You do realize that your website has actually helped me, no? I am no longer a devotee of Lori Alexander thanks to you criticisms of her. Other matters as well. But I still insist that I have a legitimate criticism to make, and you just cannot seem to accept that.

    Thus, telling me that I refuse to learn, whilst you yourself HAVE taught me things: Unfair, and a falsehood.

  • Anri

    Was what you posted above the entire email, or just a portion?

    If the former, then I’m not sure how you can claim the responder wasn’t familiar with the material.
    If the latter, well, you can give us the whole text for appraisal any time you care to, can’t you, and ask for an opinion on the whole.

  • WallofSleep
  • Melissa

    The post was not even close to being a proper response, by any stretch of the imagination. The post is merely a dismissal, coupled with a COMPLETE twisting of my words over at the Jerks 4 Jesus site.

    Look: I understand. I am your enemy. I get this. Okay? I GET THIS. But can we PLEASE try and remain composed and discuss what I genuinely feel are legitimate criticisms?

    The email was rather lengthy, and I do not fully understand how it relates to the rules here. I will just be banned again for another misunderstanding, no?

  • Anri

    I certainly don’t consider you my enemy, as I apparently don’t even know what your actual thought are, as I haven’t been able to read them yet.

    I like to feel I have remained composed – I’m not typing angrily, if that’s what you’re concerned about – and am asking for you to note your criticisms so they can be discussed.

    Let me put it to you this way – would you like me to tell you what I think of your criticisms when I haven’t read them?
    Would that have any value at all? I would suggest it wouldn’t.

    If you don’t want to post your email, that’s fine, you’re under no onus whatsoever to do so. But please don’t ask me to be able to discuss something I haven’t read.
    If you expect the discussion to occur just between you and the person who had read your message – our host – that’s also completely fine, but then why air it on a public forum?

    If you feel other users are being rude or dismissive, well here’s the thing – you are not obligated to respond to them.
    It’s entirely your call as to who you’d care to engage with.

  • Melissa

    Respectfully, you are actually being completely unhelpful, and totally unconstructive. You are posting broken links to images; mocking me with movie GIFs; and you actually downvoted me for praising this site as having helped me realize how useless and toxic Lori Alexander is.

    I made a suggestion that groupthink might be at play here: You are literally confirming such.

  • Melissa

    I’m trying to juggle home duties and replying here. Please pardon any mistakes.

    Normally, yes, I would ignore anything that happens here. I do read, but always skip the comments – and, yes, I disagree with much

    Something happened in real life to me – involving CPS – that I can *directly* link back to this site.

    My initial posting to this site was, admittedly, very much fueled by anger. It also didn’t help that the host mistook me for a different person; when I explained I was not that person I was then deleted, banned, and dismissed. I was also just recovering from acute bronchitis at the time.

    It was an AWFUL lot, understand?

    Since I was banned, I *very politely* emailed the host about what my concerns are about this site, telling her that it was all triggered by something that had DIRECTLY impacted me in real life.

    Her response: A total litany of falsehoods; twisting of my words; and an outright dismissal.

    She can dismiss me all she wants, and laugh me off as just a “fundy critic” who needs to get lost. But, no matter what she says: What is said here, on her public blog, DOES HAVE IMPACTS ON REALITY. She *DOES* have a responsibility to make sure what she says is actually correct.

    The criticisms that I gave her, I genuinely feel, are LEGITIMATE criticisms. They perhaps can improve the quality of content. Her response to that? Well, you can see.

    I could perhaps, when I have another moment, try and clean-up the email I wrote her. Not sure exactly how.

    But, again: I suspect I will merely be deleted, banned, and mocked.

  • phatkhat

    Enemy? Not at all. Merely… irrelevant. “Enemy” sort of connotes some power on your part to harm me. You have none at all.

  • Suzanne Harper Titkemeyer

    Sweetheart, you think you have any sort of power here you are very mistaken. Calling me a ‘cult leader’ is just the kind of hysterical hyperbolic thing that Fundamentalist do and seals your fate here. This site is not for you. I do not give a quivering rats behind what you think. You are just one of many over the last three weeks. I can always tell when some hateful denizen of fundytown has complained about this place because people like you come crawling out. You’ve willfully violated the comment policy again and again. I allowed you back in because you seemed repentant. Clearly that was a huge mistake on my part. Welcome to ignore. Your email is blocked, you are blocked here and I suspect you’re the same hideous little troll I had to recently block on Facebook.

  • Suzanne Harper Titkemeyer

    She mistaken thinks she has rights here, and power, fundy Jesus power which is no power at all.

  • Suzanne Harper Titkemeyer

    It’s cute you think I was responding to you instead of the 7, 302,860 other rude people who have ended up in the toxicity filter. You’re not that powerful.

  • Suzanne Harper Titkemeyer

    And please sue me! I want you to waste roughly 100K getting me served here in Costa Rica.

  • Raging Bee

    Which issues does it not cover? It looks like a pretty good response to all those denials the author mentions.

  • Suzanne Harper Titkemeyer

    Here’s what she said:

    Quiverfull is a name that Vyckie Garrison just made up and does not really exist.

    I am a cult leader for having NLQ.

    Everything else was “I AM SO OFFENDED AND MAD AT YOU!!!”

    Make no mistake about it her original comments and email violates everything about the comment policy here.

    Will paste the entire correspondence along with the floods over others over this last month at Jerks4Jesus when I get time. She was merely the most persistent. Someone, maybe a Tim Titty2Baby Bayly or a Lori Alexander type must have been griping about this place because I have been dealing with a tidal wave of sheer stupidity2 for weeks now.

  • karmacat

    You can’t throw words around like cult leader and group think without complete examples. I have seen that people who throw around these terms have usually lost the main argument

  • Saraquill

    If this blog is a cult1, it’s an incredibly laid back, low demand one. Almost like the accuser lacks a dictionary.

  • Ann Kah

    OK, I appear to have wandered over here in the middle of a cat fight, with someone who insists that the host of a public opinion site drop everything and respond to HER personal criticism, preferably with a big kissy-faced apology right NOW or she will hold her breath until she turns blue. That isn’t the way things are done, Melissa. Did you take your charm-n-diplomacy degree at Trump U?

  • Lizard

    I just drop in every couple of weeks to catch up. Chillest cult ever.

  • igotbanned999

    Reminds me of how racists insist they are ‘race realists’ or ‘white nationalists’.

  • WallofSleep

    “… you are actually being completely unhelpful, and totally unconstructive.”

    Phew! Glad to see we’re finally on the same page.

  • Odd Jørgensen

    well there you go groupthinking again, wanting examples and whatnot. Sheesh.

    /s

  • Polytropos

    Personally I think one of the biggest problems with the Andersons is that they deny their kids real education. On her blog I’ve seen Zsu brag about using science materials she claimed were 60 years old (but that’s okay, because they’re “doctrinally sound”), and no evidence she provides her poor kids with anywhere near the quality of education they would get in a real school. Some of her posts strongly imply that if she doesn’t feel like teaching for the day she doesn’t bother, and thinks running errands or volunteering at church are an acceptable substitute for learning. Isolated and uneducated as they are, those kids’ chances of escaping the family cult are not good.

  • Raging Bee

    Well, as the author’s conduct on this form proves, your statements about her acting like a “cult leader” are just plain wrong. So that’s strike one against you.

  • Suzanne Harper Titkemeyer

    In the interests of transparency here are the comments caught in the toxicity filter and the emails exchanged. I have been more patient than usual because of the Mel mix up. Her first comment was marked “Mel” and landed right between two Mel comments. I don’t look at IP addresses and emails unless I have reason. Figured Mel from When Cows and Kids Collide was having a moment, thought I’d shoot her an email asking if she was okay when I got back from my yearly U.S. shopping trip. Notice she violates comment policy right away. Comment ended up in the toxicity filter, meaning I could not approve it.

    “How to be an attention whore2(Oh NAUGHTY WORD!) on the net: Invent a fake cult. Start a blog on Patheos. Get bored with it. Hand it over to somebody else. They too start to get bored with it. Re-define this fake cult to include every Evangelical family with 4+ kids so that you’ll have plenty of fresh content to keep the blog dragging on. Livestream from hotel rooms in Costa Rica. Start blogging about even wider random stuff such as MGTOW, which not even your regular readers know the meaning of.

    THE PALINS ARE NOT QUIVERFULL.

    Get a life, Suzanne. Seriously.”

    Okayyyyy. Then the second one arrives, but does not end up in the filter. It goes through:

    “Melissa4 days agoedited
    m*************@gmail.com***.***.***.219

    Hm. Speaking of mental illnesses. I wonder if Mrs. Titkemeyer’s little fanbase here is aware that she just leaps to incorrect conclusions about comments made here? I made an (admittedly) harsh comment the other week about something, and she mistook my name for another person – said she was disappointed in that person whom she always “highly regarded”, and contemplated banning her.

    Merely because her name is Mel. Same as mine. Name is short for Melissa.

    Not making this up. It is all over at the little “Jerks 4 Jesus” blog. 🙂

    Oh, and the comment is not from some secret place at Free Jinger. It was merely my exasperation at the overwrought drama of this faux “recovery space”.

    Merely curious if you have banned other members, or judged them thusly because of your haphazard leaps of logic?

    And I still stand by my assertions: It is a non-existent, made-up ”cult”. Vickie Garrison is a known drama seeker; she loves her little “causes”. Even a daughter of hers said as much. She has a desire to be relevant, and be in the spotlight. When she gets bored of her current “cause”, like she thusly did with this blog, she hands it off to somebody else and finds a new “cause”. It is quite easy to see her pattern.

    Also: Yes, I do still stand by my claim that your absurd notion that the Palin’s are Quiverfull was nothing more than a content-grab for this blog. Quiverfull is an IFB theology based on 7 specific scriptures. It is NOT what is oft claimed here as being what any Christian family of 4+ children is.

    But, again, since it is a made-up “cult”, you do get to arbitrarily decide what all it is, and who all is part of it, hm? Rather convenient that.

    Finally: I do SO dislike being lied about, Mrs. Titkemeyer. Let’s NOT do that, shall we? Quite vexing to see us going off on our tirades on the other blog, writing all manner of falsehoods about little me. The statement I made was, and I quote: “Livestream from hotel rooms in Costa Rica.” Perhaps I did misunderstand the video, but was it not shot in a hotel room? Hm?

    Now, this all does not seem to merit the rather grossly exaggerated response you clearly typed-up in a fretful mood, does it dear? I mean, me jealous of your lifestyle? I am upper-middle class, hon, let us not be silly. 🙂

    Perhaps an apology?”

    Apologize for what? Because I mistook her for someone else at first? More comment policy violates and enough readers flagged her comment that it automatically kicked back into the filter, turning her status to shadow ban.

    Then I get a message saying she wants to apologize. Here’s the email.

    “Oct 2, 2019, 7:21 PM (4 days ago)

    Is this the proper email to contact you at? I am confused.

    I… humbly apologize. I have just overcome a bad case of acute bronchitis. Something has happened over here to make me angry at you, and I presented myself to your blog in a very poor manner. Husband pointed out to me that I rudely violated what is supposed to be a protected space, and it is thusly my fault. 🙁

    I sincerely am sorry. I know you have “shadow banned” me. I deserved such.

    Can I have a second chance? Can I explain myself to you so you will understand why I am so angry? You were so confused as to who I even am, I sincerely do not think you understood what I was trying to say.”

    Because I can see I am dealing with someone rather young with issues I decided to forgive and forget, not poke the badger with the spoon. This is what I said:

    “Sure you can have a second chance. Even when I thought you were someone else I thought something was going on with you. Happens to all of us. I am pretty sick right now myself.

    You should just not believe everything said about people online. I am always amazed at the rumors about myself that get back to me, and usually laugh them off.

    I’m sorry we got off on such a wrong foot.

    Suzanne”

    and then I get this. The minute she called me a cult leader Melissa sealed her fate with me and is blocked from contacting me in any form. Ain’t nobody got time for this, and like I said she is only one of a handful I’ve been dealing with all month. Someone somewhere rallied their fundy troops to attack:

    “Melissa

    Oct 4, 2019, 11:52 AM (2 days ago)

    to me
    You have blocked marriedinbliss@gmail.com

    New messages from this sender will be sent to Spam.

    Upon reflection, my issues are likely best delivered via email, not your website.

    This blog of yours I have ignored for many years now. But, much like that “PizzaGate” scandal, something has happened over here in which accusations from your blog have DIRECTLY come off the screen and DIRECTLY impacted my life. It has made me very, very mad at you.

    Allow me to lay out all my complaints.

    NO: Quiverfull is not a cult. It is a made-up “cult”, explicitly started by Vyckie Garrison after she escaped from an abusive marriage. She called her marriage a “cult” because – as one of her own daughters has gone on record as saying – she is an attention-seeking type who is fond of the latest “cause” to grab her fancy. She gets bored with these causes quickly, and then dumps them for the next shiny one to grab her attention.

    You can view this as an “attack” on Mrs. Garrison, but understand my viewpoint: I am not dismissing her as an abuse survivor. Being a survivor of abuse does not give one unlimited license to engage in bad behavior. My husband was abused as a child, and he does not engage in such behavior.

    The traditional definition of what a cult is more traditionally aligns with signs as (merely as an example) are given at this website: https://carm.org/signs-practices-of-a-cult

    Me being a SAHM; not using birth control; homeschooling; and being all traditional and skirty is absolutely NOT a cult.

    Curiously, and with all due respect: Your website matches up more along the lines of what a cult is more than Quiverfull does. You are the head leader. No dissent allowed, you just repeatedly delete and threatened to ban me. Clearly a lot of group think is taking place. How dare I dare criticize the founder!

    Again: Please understand that this is me trying to be respectfully critical. Even other survivors of this alleged Quiverfull cult have, en masse, told Mrs. Garrison to be silent on the matter, one even quoting “you don’t speak for us”. I am not alone in feeling this.

    My request would be to stop tossing the word “cult” around at every twist and turn merely because you have encountered a particular person or religion that you dislike.

    In just one day of reading the comments posted there on your site somebody even mentioned that Bill Gothard had started a “bread making cult”. The utter absurdity!

    When this ridiculous notion of what a “cult” is clearly not withstood scrutiny, you all moved the goal post and said we were all a “cult-like” religion. And when that failed to stick you moved the goal post yet again and called us a “high-demand religion”.

    CLEARLY your claims of me being in a cult do not withstand any sort of rigorous criticism.

    Quiverfull is a cult. Me having Apostolic interests in long hair is a cult. IBLP/ATI is a cult. Making homemade bread is a cult. Us attending an IFB church is a cult. My Complementarian marriage is a cult.

    I am apparently involved in 6 cults as far as I can ascertain! The absolute nonsense of it all!

    And then, when all of your initial material dried-up, you loosened the definition of what “Quiverfull” is to make it seem like it is as common as a soccer mom found on every street: You now imply that any Christian family with 4+ is a Quiverfull family in this “explosively growing cult”.

    Mrs. Titkemeyer, please understand my perspective: This is obviously, to me, you casting your nets wide, dredging the bottoms for any and all content you can muster in order to keep your blog seem relevant.

    Quiverfull is 7 core verses in my family; church; and understanding. If anybody is not within these verses: They are NOT Quiverfull.

    Ephesians 5:23, which places the husband as head of the household; Colossians 3:18 which tells wives to submit to their husbands; Psalms 127 which says to not use birth control; Titus 2:3 instructs the mother to stay home; Deuteronomy 6:7 tells us to homeschool the children; Ephesians 6:1 tells us to have obedient children; and 1 Peter 3:3 tells us to have modest dress.

    THIS IS QUIVERFULL.

    No, the Palins are NOT this. It was so obvious (to me) that you were grasping at straws by even attempting to include them in this belief system! I could not even believe my eyes!

    I would genuinely appreciate a response to all this, no matter the method.

    And thank you for unbanning me.

    Sincerely,

    Melissa”

    Knittah please! Just go away. There is nothing for you here.

  • WallofSleep

    Dang. I spent all that money on a TitkemeyerTM Sacrificial Altar for nothing?!?

  • WallofSleep

    Well… that one’s not unhinged at all. No siree.

    http://i.imgur.com/S3D3Qgx.gif

  • Suzanne Harper Titkemeyer

    Hey! I could use that to bbq iguanas!

  • WallofSleep

    Oh, you can’t fool me. I’ve already been down that road with Bob’s Iguana Bits shack…

    https://66.media.tumblr.com/236157cf440d9e0006f2c21e263e2827/tumblr_mlawo3OtjD1soqfxpo1_500.png

  • Suzanne Harper Titkemeyer

    I fear for those kids. No education. Parents with weird beliefs. No proper nutrition or medical care. None of which spells a good outcome.

  • WallofSleep

    … and likely no documents/records showing they were born anywhere, let alone born American citizens.

  • If this blog is “a cult”, I wonder what will be the nuttiest among Fundies -I’m reminded of them claiming again and again that they do not practice a religion-.

    To raise a disproportionated number of children as if we were living centuries ago when infant mortality was skyrocketing -I know this still sadly happens on developing countries-, lacking the resources to raise them, and shielding them for the world using texts written millennia ago for very different audiencies sounds to me like a cult. And a nasty one.

    EDIT. Even the evil RationalWiki on its article about that movement gives a link to a so-called Quiverfull official website.

  • Saraquill

    Though they’ll fare much better than PoC kids without documentation.

  • Friend

    Quiverfull exists. The founders of the movement named it Quiverfull, and now the adherents have abandoned the name in a dish0nest and c0wardly fashion.

    Check out the cover design for this book:

    https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/6746297-the-bible-and-birth-control
    The Bible and Birth Control
    by Charles D. Provan

    If you don’t want to click the link: The cover shows a fist full of arrows, and the book is an extrem1st screed against contracept10n.

  • WallofSleep

    True, but it will still be a pita.

  • TickledPinkPanties

    Suzanne, please be careful with that “Melissa” person. I know who she is & she will continue to berate you & attack.

  • Saraquill

    She has way too much free time. And apparently thinks Suzanne and I are the same person. (See the rambling over the word “cult.”)

  • Friend

    Oh look, more proof that Quiverfull exists:

    A Full Quiver: Family Planning and the Lordship of Christ Paperback – February 1, 1990
    by Rick Hess (Author), Jan Hess (Author)
    https://www.amazon.com/Full-Quiver-Family-Planning-Lordship/dp/0943497833

  • WallofSleep
  • Suzanne Harper Titkemeyer

    She already tried on Facebook. I will take out a restraining order if I have. Thanks for letting me know how unbalanced she is.

  • Friend

    Hmm, this title seems rather aspirational, but here goes nothin:

    Quiverfull: Having Children Guaranteed
    Elizabeth Adefunke Adegbiji
    https://www.abebooks.com/9780956490001/Quiverfull-Children-Guaranteed-Elizabeth-Adefunke-095649000X/plp

  • Friend

    Sorry, WallofSleep. I promise my motives are pure. 😉

  • WallofSleep

    “Brand new, perfect condition. And we promise you email confirmation within 24 hours of your order! Ships from Tulsa, Oklahoma”

    Well, that’s nice. Nobody want’s a pre-owned child from Tulsa.

  • WallofSleep

    I was trying to impersonate another commenter on this post. Guess who?

  • Friend

    Thanks, I suspected as much. But I’m having serious gui1t pangs about pointing out the can0n of Quiverfulliana.

  • WallofSleep

    Test: canon.

  • Friend

    Worked with a zero, but always worth checking. 😉

  • WallofSleep

    Works with an “oh” as well. Probably because it’s spelled different than the weapon, which has 3 N’s IIRC.

  • TickledPinkPanties

    Anytime boo!

  • Friend

    Ah, except the tr1cksters who put together the swe@r list deliberately included some common misspellings. I really h@te defens1ve spelling, but I also don’t enjoy watching comments vanish.

  • Polytropos

    I fear for them too. The odds really aren’t in their favour.

  • Mel

    I’m far more worried about the fact that the science materials were “doctrinally sound” than the fact that the science books were written in the 1960’s. The nuts and bolts of the scientific method and the broad ideas of physics, chemistry, biology and most of Earth Science will be in books written after 1950 or so – although some of the finer details have changed. But what Zsu is actually objecting to is the fundamental ideas of science (and history and language arts) that prioritize factual truth and lived experience over Biblical inerrancy – so instead she’s given her kids a sub-par education under the guise of religion.

  • Debbie HOFFPAUIR

    Yep, we had this one and “The Full Quiver” and were all ‘Vision Forum’ and Quit You Like Men, for the folks who remember that.

    https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/rTkAAOSwy69Zp9k8/s-l640.jpg

  • I very much doubt these will care about that, but 60 years ago we did not know Venus is a hellhole below all those clouds, still thought Mars could have a thicker atmosphere as well as life (plants, etc), and the less one talks about the outer Solar System the better.

    Not to mention the Big 69Bang theory was much less supported by evidence than now, as quasars or the cosmic microwave background were not discovered until the ’60s and the prefered theory was the “Steady State” or that even neutron stars -like black holes to a larger extent- were at best the product of theoretical physics.

  • WallofSleep

    That’s so unfair of you. I mean yeah, the place could use a little sprucing up, but hellhole?

  • Debbie HOFFPAUIR

    Oh My!! Vickie’s page and Suzannes blog were created in RESPONSE to a movement (in some cases cult) that women were seeking to get out of. The nickname for the movement is Quiverfull, and the term has been in use FOR A WHILE. I was in the group of women in the original group Vickie created, have 9 children and began my divorce in 2009. Our family and church of origin bore all the symptoms of a cult, complete with many control mechanisms.

    If your church or family believes that God is in control of the womb2 and we should trust him to plan our family, and raise our children to be ‘culture warriors’ it is basically quiverfull. It is a form of Christian Dominionism, if you are familiar with that term.

    There is NO WAY Suzanne’s blog is a cult. It is a blog where she has every right to control the content.

  • Polytropos

    Yeah, the “doctrinally sound” part is the most worrying thing. She’s much more interested in whether her school materials agree with her religious beliefs than whether they are accurate, up to date, or help her kids develop the skills needed to navigate 21st century life. Because she homeschools, she isn’t stuck with whatever textbook her school uses. She could use any materials she wants, and these days there are some good materials available. But she chooses to use outdated stuff because, as you say, religion is more important to her than education.

  • paganheart

    Zsu had some pretty serious complications with her more recent pregnancies, if memory serves, so her more recent births, at least, most likely took place in hospitals. Here in AZ, if you have a baby in the hospital it’s nearly impossible to get discharged without filing the paperwork for a birth certificate and Social Security number first. So the youngest kids at least should have documents and records…I hope…

  • Astreja

    Melissa, you’ve had the opportunity to say what you wanted to say, and getting obsessively upset about how your words were received is not going to magically engender any respect or agreement from us. This is clearly not a place where you will be taken seriously, so cut your losses and walk away.

  • Mel

    Biology has found that a whole lot of relationships between various animals were just plain different than we had previously thought. Depending on the publishing date, plate tectonics was still a minor hypothesis rather than accepted fact. Chemistry has entire sections of the periodic table with names and some data about those elements that were empty in the 1960’s.

    But honestly – most of both of our examples are either 1) not major topics prior to college or advanced HS studies or 2) easily remedied using a book or two from the library or the internet as a basic supplement for areas that are out of date.

    I taught from about 2005-2014 in poor urban districts. My physics texts had been published in the late 1980’s – and yeah, it fell apart around the edges of some topics. So…we didn’t use them for those topics; I either made totally illegal copies of up-to-date books or used the interwebs. On the flip side, the Newtonian physics and optics sections were glorious; challenging enough with lots of practical examples. I could spend my time building projects for the students instead.

    I think the bigger problem is that Zsu has no interest in making sure her materials are accurate – and more broadly – how many homeschooling moms of huge families have the experience and time to adapt curricula that is outdated? I taught 3 science courses my first year and 4 courses each year after that and I barely had time to breathe even as I became more experienced because by that point I was writing a semester long new project-based learning course yearly. That was insane…and rewarding….but it’s the closest to the amount of effort a homeschooling parent would need to place to really dial in their curriculum

  • SAO

    A cult controls the lives of its followers, by saying God or some other diety/authority requires adherence to the rules. Having rules for a blog is like having rules for your home. All Suzanne says is basically, `no rude words in my living room.’ She’s not saying you’re a godless sinner if you regularly swear and she’s not saying you can’t swear like a sailor in your own living room or anywhere else.

    So, basically, the argument that NLQ is a cult is ridiculous.

  • Precisely experience. I can’t see how homeschooling can work if you know absolutely nothing of, say, mathematics even if you can remediate it with external help assuming it’s available.

  • SAO

    When you did the series on a homeschooling curriculum, I was struck by the extent to which all science work could be distilled down to the same basic essay about Jesus. Biology: how eyes work — eyes help us see Jesus. Physics: gravity is like the force that draws us to Jesus. Chemistry: a chemical reaction is like what happens to your life when you add Jesus to it. Etc. No need to demonstrate having learned a scintilla of science if you could spout a few platitudes about Jesus.

  • Mel

    Alas, no. She’s only had Solomon at a hospital. She’s had multiple scary postpartum hemorrhages with several of her kids – including Solomon. I can’t entirely gauge how she feels deep inside about her home births. She’s clearly pro-natural childbirth – but her birth stories sound horribly painful and drawn out. She also looks wan and badly drawn for weeks after a baby is born.

    She used to post the stupid argument that ‘babies die in hospitals, too” – and then she lost Jacquim (Boaz’s twin) due to twin-to-twin transfusion syndrome. I think she found out the hard way that the “babies die everywhere” argument only works if you are in complete denial about the idea that your baby might die.

    Also – and I am a broken record on this topic – losing a term baby who is alive at the start of labor in a hospital is very rare and usually due to a catastrophic malformation of the placenta/umbilical cord. Most of the babies who die in hospitals are terribly premature, have major organ2 malfunctions that are incompatible with life and/or have been heartbreakingly compromised from severe problems during the pregnancy. Hospitals also send home babies who were very premature, have major organ2 issues and major pregnancy complications as fairly healthy babies every day – and a home birth can’t do that for those babies.

  • SAO

    I’m working on my second master’s degree. So, I’m better educated than 90% of Americans. I found by the time my kids were in middle school, I needed to put in a hour or so of research to help them with their homework. I’ve taken graduate-level calculus and matrix math, but did I remember that formula in the homework or exactly when or how to apply it?

    Sure, the research was on-line and easily found, but a half hour of my help cost me 1.5 hours of time. And my kids usually learned the material in class, so I was neither the primary teacher nor helping them every day.

  • Suzanne Harper Titkemeyer

    2nd masters! Color me impressed because the first one is enough of a struggle that I would never want to repeat it.. and you’re quite right on how much prep time it takes just to help out with homework. It was never my strength.

  • B.E. Miller

    Sorry, two thoughts….

    1) But why not a pre-owned child from Tulsa? Babies are soo fussy, and how can you tell a “my diaper needs changing” cry, from a “I’m hungry” cry?

    2) They’re Real True pagan injun2′ kids, who need to be raised by Real True Christians(tm) to be ‘saved’. (Okay that last one isn’t really that funny.)

  • B.E. Miller

    I keep thinking someone could do a ‘remake’ of “Born in East L.A.” but with a white quiverfull fundie kid as the center role. It would be a combination of “fish out of water” trope, with whatever trope “Born in East L.A.” was.

    Because the illegals would know more about ‘murican pop culture than the Quiverfull kid. I could just see a scene where they would be all chanting lines from American movies/TV/ Netflix and Hulu, in unison, while the Quiverfull kid would be like “????”. At that the ‘aliens’ would be like “Are you sure you’re American?” And someone would quip something about being white….

    Though I’m not sure BiELA qualified as a trope when it first came out. It was based on the fear American-born or Hispanic citizens had of “not looking like an American” and thus being picked up by INS. Which did happen. And still does sometimes.

  • WallofSleep
  • B.E. Miller

    I keep thinking of a commenter on “Love, Joy, Feminism” with the user name of Kevin, who sometimes says that his mother files certain QF things under “Crazy Things Only White69 People69 Do.” Like telling their kids no trade school or college. (Apparently his parents are black quiverfulls.)

    He said that his parents also put “cutting off adult kids who leave the faith” under that. Because of how black families were often split apart, now they really value those family connections. Plus the family connections are good for if something happens to one set of parents, other family members can step in, to keep the kids out of the system.

    I’m now thinking “Not Getting Birth Certificates For the Kids” would also go under CTOWPD heading.

  • paganheart

    I stand corrected. That’s really frightening that she’s been through all those things in a homebirth setting, and is still alive. She’s either incredibly strong, or incredibly lucky. And luck inevitably runs out. That also makes it more likely that her younger kids don’t have proper documentation (birth certificates, SSNs.) An ethical, licensed midwife will make sure those documents get filed, but not every midwife here in Arizona is licensed (or ethical), and the state is not really going after the unlicensed ones.

  • SAO

    I’m having fun and it pays for itself because tuition, fees, books + student health insurance is cheaper than insurance for a 50-something. My MBA was an intensive program, two years of classes, homework and projects from the time I got up to 10 pm. Now, I’m taking just 2 classes/semester and it’s a very different experience.

    I’m also working part-time as a graduate assistant, so between that and the degree, I’ll be able to re-enter the workforce, after having left it in the previous millenium.

  • Suzanne Harper Titkemeyer

    Sounds like a win-win!

  • Ruthitchka

    Suzanne, this is sort of a sidebar, but I’m just curious, do you consider devout Catholic couples to be Quiverfull as well? I don’t, because I haven’t heard about the Catholic Church teaching all that overly-submissive-wife stuff. Also, the Catholic Church does allow the rhythm and temperature methods of birth control, so I guess one couldn’t really consider them Quiverfull.

    I am Eastern Orthodox, and my former priest basically told us that he’d prefer we didn’t use birth control at all. He added that the only artificial methods of birth control permitted by the Orthodox Church are the barrier methods (condom2 and diaphragm). There were some extremely devout families with 5 or more children, but for many families where I lived, it just wasn’t affordable.

    Keep these interesting articles coming!

  • Suzanne Harper Titkemeyer

    I think it really depends. Back when my grandmother had 13 kids the church was teaching some pretty extreme submission. So yes and no. But now I see charismatic Catholics that embrace a lot of the same things Quiverfull does. I think the ones that are QF are an offshoot.

  • persephone

    She’s a queen of cognitive dissonance. Before the loss of Joachim, she was on her blog telling mothers that they shouldn’t get medical intervention because that interfered with God’s will. Then, well, it happened to her. Some of her readers called her on it and she mostly played it off, but deleted comments and made some edits.

    She and Steve are both nutjobs. I’ve always felt some sympathy for Zsu because I believe that Steve sort of overwhelmed her, brought her to the U.S., separating her from her family, leaving her wholly dependent on him, and continuously pushes his psychotic belief system. But her failure to stand up for her children has pretty much wiped that out. Yes, I’m sure she’s suffering the mental issues associated with emotional abuse and overwhelmed with physical demands with all the kids, but I’ve just hit the point of not caring.

  • persephone

    Seriously. Nothing like my old cult. I appreciate Suzanne’s posts, but also the great commenters here. I like to see how everyone’s doing.

  • persephone

    Not QF, but I got out of the JWs long ago, and NLQ, way, way back, became a safe place for me to work through my issues. I started following Vyckie’s original blog with her previous blog partner, followed to the forums, and then here to Patheos. Suzanne has done an amazing job, and I don’t know how she does it.

  • Debbie HOFFPAUIR

    Ah, cool persephone. My screen name was philosophia back on the original blog.

  • persephone

    The cherrypicking in that email is extraordinary. From twisting Bible verses to definitions of QF, this one is something else. I’m going to go with sleep-deprivation, poor nutrition, and lack of decent healthcare as the explanation. Doesn’t change the fact that she’s unhinged.

  • Or “western chauvinists” (see: Proud Boys).

  • …I recognize that game.

    Fallout 2.

  • Holy hell.

    You got a live one, there!

  • WallofSleep

    Actually it’s Fallout 1, but both games use pretty much the same assets so it’s easy to confuse them on first glance.

  • persephone

    I’m not sure about my original name. It could have been Persephone, but it’s been so long.