How I Lost Faith in the “Pro-Life” Movement

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The spring of my sophomore year of college I was president of my university’s Students for Life chapter. The fall of my junior year of college I cut my ties with the pro-life movement. Five years later I have lost the last shred of faith I had in that movement. This is my story.

I was raised in the sort of evangelical family where abortion is the number one political issue. I grew up believing that abortion was murder, and when I stopped identifying as pro-life I initially still believed that. Why, then, did I stop identifying as pro-life? Quite simply, I learned that increasing contraceptive use, not banning abortion, was the key to decreasing the number of abortions. Given that the pro-life movement focuses on banning abortion and is generally opposed advocating greater contraceptive use, I knew that I no longer fit. I also knew that my biggest allies in decreasing the number of abortions were those who supported increased birth control use – in other words, pro-choice progressives. And so I stopped calling myself pro-life.

My views on fetal personhood and women’s bodily autonomy have shifted since that day, but when I first started blogging a year and a half ago I was nevertheless very insistent that the pro-life movement should be taken at its word when it came to rhetoric about saving “unborn babies” from being “murdered.” I insisted that the pro-life movement wasn’t anti-woman or anti-sex, and that those who opposed abortion genuinely believed that a zygote/embryo/fetus was a person with rights in need of protection just like any other person. I believed that the pro-life movement’s actions were counterproductive, but that they were merely misinformed. I wrote a post with practical suggestions for opponents of abortion. I believed that the pro-life movement was genuine in its goals, but simply ignorant about how its goals might best be obtained.

I have come to the conclusion that I was wrong.

As a child, teen, and college student, I sincerely believed that personhood, life, rights, and the soul all began at fertilization. I was honestly opposed to abortion because I believed it was murder. It had nothing to do with being anti-woman or anti-sex. I thought that the pro-life movement writ large – the major pro-life organizations, leaders, and politicians – were similarly genuine. I thought that they, like myself, simply wanted to “save the lives of unborn babies.”

I have come to the conclusion that I was a dupe.

What I want to share here is how I came to this realization. And if you, reader, are one of those who opposes abortion because you believe it is murder and you want to save the lives of unborn babies, well, I hope to persuade you that the pro-life movement is not actually your ally in this, that you have been misled, and that you would be more effective in decreasing the number of abortions that occur if you were to side with pro-choice progressives. If this is you, please hear me out before shaking your head.

Changing Tactics and Breaking Ties

My journey began one blustery day in October of 2007 when I came upon an article in the New York Times. This article completely shook my perspective. It didn’t change my belief that abortion was murder or my desire to save the lives of unborn babies. Instead, it simply completely overhauled my tactical focus and made me realize that the current efforts of the pro-life movement are extremely backwards.

Banning Abortion Does Not Decrease Abortion Rates

The first thing I learned from that New York Times article shocked me: it turns out that banning abortion does not actually affect the abortion rate.

A comprehensive global study of abortion has concluded that abortion rates are similar in countries where it is legal and those where it is not, suggesting that outlawing the procedure does little to deter women seeking it.

Moreover, the researchers found that abortion was safe in countries where it was legal, but dangerous in countries where it was outlawed and performed clandestinely. Globally, abortion accounts for 13 percent of women’s deaths during pregnancy and childbirth, and there are 31 abortions for every 100 live births, the study said.

The results of the study, a collaboration between scientists from the World Health Organization in Geneva and the Guttmacher Institute in New York, a reproductive rights group, are being published Friday in the journal Lancet.

“We now have a global picture of induced abortion in the world, covering both countries where it is legal and countries where laws are very restrictive,” Dr. Paul Van Look, director of the W.H.O. Department of Reproductive Health and Research, said in a telephone interview. “What we see is that the law does not influence a woman’s decision to have an abortion. If there’s an unplanned pregnancy, it does not matter if the law is restrictive or liberal.”

But the legal status of abortion did greatly affect the dangers involved, the researchers said. “Generally, where abortion is legal it will be provided in a safe manner,” Dr. Van Look said. “And the opposite is also true: where it is illegal, it is likely to be unsafe, performed under unsafe conditions by poorly trained providers.”

I was flabbergasted upon reading this. I followed the link to the summary of the study, printed the entire thing out for reading over lunch, and then headed off to class. As I perused the study over a taco bowl in the student union later that day I wondered why I had never been told any of this. I was shocked to find that the countries with the lowest abortion rates are the ones where abortion is most legal and available, and the countries with the highest abortion rates are generally the ones where the practice is illegal. It’s true.

Highly restrictive abortion laws are not associated with lower abortion rates. For example, the abortion rate is 29 per 1,000 women of childbearing age in Africa and 32 per 1,000 in Latin America—regions in which abortion is illegal under most circumstances in the majority of countries. The rate is 12 per 1,000 in Western Europe, where abortion is generally permitted on broad grounds.

Banning abortion does not actually affect abortion rates. I was could not have been more shocked. I learned that all banning abortion does is make abortion illegal – and unsafe. I found that almost 50,000 women worldwide die each year from unsafe abortions, and that many more experience serious injury or infertility. These deaths happen almost entirely in countries where abortion is illegal – and thus clandestine. In fact, when abortion was made legal in South Africa, the number of abortion related deaths fell by over 90%.

Overturning Roe, I realized, would not make women stop having abortions. Instead, it would simply punish women who have abortions by requiring them to risk their health to do so. This is all well and good if the goal is to punish women for seeking abortions, but if the goal is to keep unborn babies from being murdered, this is extremely ineffective.

The Real Solution: Birth Control

But if banning abortion does not decrease abortion rates, what does? Why do some countries have low abortion rates while others have much higher rates? The answer, I found, was simple.

Both the lowest and highest subregional abortion rates are in Europe, where abortion is generally legal under broad grounds. In Western Europe, the rate is 12 per 1,000 women, while in Eastern Europe it is 43. The discrepancy in rates between the two regions reflects relatively low contraceptive use in Eastern Europe, as well as a high degree of reliance on methods with relatively high user failure rates, such as the condom, withdrawal and the rhythm method.

As I sat there in the student union reading over my lunch, I found that making birth control widespread and easily accessible is actually the most effective way to decrease the abortion rate. Even as I processed this fact, I knew that the pro-life movement as a whole generally opposes things like comprehensive sex education and making birth control available to teenagers. I knew this because I had lived it, had heard it in pro-life banquet after pro-life banquet, had read it in the literature. The pro-life movement is anti-birth-control. And opposing birth control is pretty much the most ineffective way to decrease abortion rates imaginable. In fact, opposing birth control actually drives the abortion rates up.

As I mulled this over, I realized how very obvious it was. The cause of abortions is unwanted pregnancies. If you get rid of unwanted pregnancies the number of people who seek abortions will drop like a rock. Simply banning abortion leaves women stuck with unwanted pregnancies. Banning abortion doesn’t make those pregnancies wanted. Many women in a situation like that will be willing to do anything to end that pregnancy, even if it means trying to induce their own abortions (say, with a coat hanger or by drinking chemicals) or seeking out illegal abortions. I realized that the real way to reduce abortion rates, then, was to reduce the number of unwanted pregnancies. And the way to do that is with birth control, which reduces the number of unwanted pregnancies by allowing women to control when and if they become pregnant.

I realized that the only world in which opposing birth control made any sense was one in which the goal was to control women’s sex lives. After all, birth control allows women to have sex without having to face the “consequences” of sex. But I had never opposed abortion in an effort to make women face the “consequences” of having sex. I had always opposed abortion out of a desire to save the lives of unborn babies. As a child, I had been moved to tears by the image of millions of babies murdered by abortion each year. If making it easier for women to have sex I personally believed was sinful was the price I had to pay to save the lives of unborn babies, it was a price I was more than willing to pay.

As my next class approached, I put the printout back in my backpack and walked out into the October sun. My mind was in turmoil, but there was one thing I knew for sure. I could no longer call myself pro-life, because I could no longer support the policies advocated by the pro-life movement and the major pro-life organizations. I no longer wanted to see Roe overturned or abortion banned. Instead, I wanted to work towards a world in which everyone has access to affordable birth control and unplanned pregnancies are reduced to a bare minimum. That day I became pro-choice.

What about the Zygote?

In the five years since that day in October, I have rethought many things. I no longer believe that abortion is murder because I no longer hold that a zygote, embryo, or fetus is a “person.” I also came to realize that the focus on personhood ignores the fact that a zygote, embryo, or fetus is growing inside of another person’s body. For a variety of reasons, I see birth as the key dividing line. But even as my position shifted, I was still willing to give the pro-life movement the benefit of the doubt. Why? Because I believed that the pro-life movement’s opposition to birth control stemmed not from a desire to control women’s sex lives but rather from the belief that the pill was an “abortifacient.” This meant that the pro-life movement could oppose abortion as murder and yet also oppose birth control without actually being inconsistent. But in the last few months I have read several things that have shaken this belief.

Does the Pill Kill?

Let me preface this with a quick biology lesson. Every month, a woman’s body releases an egg into the Fallopian tubes. If there is sperm there waiting, the egg becomes fertilized, and this fertilized egg has its own unique DNA. This is when I was taught life – including personhood and the bestowing of a soul – began. This fertilized egg, or zygote, then travels from the Fallopian tubes to the uterus, where it implants in the uterine wall. That is when pregnancy begins.

Now, the birth control pill works primarily by preventing ovulation in the first place, and also by impeding sperm so that it can’t get to the Fallopian tubes to fertilize the egg. But leading organizations in the pro-life movement argue that there is some chance that women on the pill will have “breakthrough ovulation,” and if this occurs and sperm somehow make their way into the Fallopian tubes, you could technically end up with a fertilized egg. Pro-life organizations further suggest that because the pill also thins the uterine lining, this fertilized egg would be flushed out of a woman’s body through her vagina rather than implanting in her uterus.

Here is how a Life Issues Institute article describes this:

The estrogen level is so low that it doesn’t suppress ovulation all of the time …, and sometimes there is what we call a breakthrough ovulation – ovulation which breaks through the effect of the drug and is simply a plain old ovulation. It just happens. Fertilization, then, can occur. But if fertilization occurs, implantation within the nutrient lining of the womb is prevented by another action of the same pill. That action is a hardening of the lining of the womb. What occurs, then, is an induced micro-abortion at one week of life.

How frequent is breakthrough ovulation in a woman taking a low-estrogen contraceptive pill? Well, let’s take a high estimate – 20%. Probably lower than that. How frequently does pregnancy occur when an egg or an ovum is waiting? Probably not much more than two or three times out of the twenty.

So if we use a high figure, a 20% breakthrough ovulation, that would mean a two or three percent fertilization rate. But, as a matter of fact, pregnancy occurs only about 1% or less of the time, so, in the other 1 or 2%, fertilization does occur, implantation cannot occur, and the little embryonic baby dies.

The bottom line, then, for the commonly used contraceptive pill is this: in 97 or 98% of the time, the effect is one of preventing pregnancy. But, in perhaps two or more percent of the time, the effect is abortifacient. There is no way in the normal clinical practice of knowing which is happening, or when.

When I learned that birth control, not banning abortion, was the best way to decrease abortion, I knew about this argument. However, I concluded that the small number of times this might happen was outweighed by the number of abortions the widespread use of birth control would prevent. Yet even though that was my conclusion, I could at least understand why those in the pro-life movement almost universally opposed the pill and other forms of hormonal birth control. I was willing to give them the benefit of the doubt and assume that, even though I thought they were misguided in their tactics, they really did simply want to “save the lives of unborn babies.” And give them the benefit of the doubt I did.

I later learned that an increasing pile of evidence suggests that the pill does not actually result in fertilized eggs being flushed out of a woman’s body. I began to feel that the pro-life movement had no qualms with twisting the scientific evidence if need be, which was confusing because there didn’t seem to be a motive for insisting on the belief that the pill causes abortions if scientific evidence indicated the contrary. I also found that the pro-life movement is not afraid of twisting the evidence when it comes to things like the supposed harmful side effects of abortion, such as depression and breast cancer. Cooking up “scientific facts” in an effort to scare women out of having abortions rather than working to encourage birth control use in an effort to reduce the number of unintended pregnancies seemed extremely backwards, and I became increasingly troubled by the way the pro-life movement treated science and their constant willingness to play fast and loose with the facts.

The Biggest Killer: A Woman’s Own Body

Because I knew that the pro-life movement believed that the pill causes abortions, though, I could on some level understand why they opposed it, and I continued to give them the benefit of the doubt on that score. That is, until I read this blog post by Sarah.

The anti-birth control crowd leaves out one very important fact: a woman’s body naturally rejects at least 18% of fertilized eggs. This means that if you have unprotected sex that leads to the fertilization of an egg (30% chance of successful fertilization), the resulting zygote has an 18% chance of being rejected by the uterus. The human body naturally performs “abortions” almost 20% of the time. So does taking birth control actually increase the chances of zygote abortion, or does birth control actually reduce the chances of this occurring? Let’s do the math.

Without Birth Control:

  • Out of 100 fertile women without birth control, 100 of them will ovulate in any given month.
  • Out of those 100 released eggs, 33 will become fertilized.
  • Out of those 33, 18% will be rejected by the uterus.
  • In a group of 100 women not on birth control: 6 zygotes will “die”

With Birth Control:

  • Out of 100 fertile women on birth control, around 6 of them will ovulate in any given month.
  • Out of those 6 released eggs, only 2 will become fertilized.
  • Out of those 2, 100% will be rejected by the uterus.
  • In a group of 100 women on birth control: 2 zygotes will “die”

So let’s get this straight, taking birth control makes a woman’s body LESS likely to dispel fertilized eggs. If you believe that life begins at conception, shouldn’t it be your moral duty to reduce the number of zygote “abortions?” If you believe that a zygote is a human, you actually kill more babies by refusing to take birth control.

I have to be honest, this blog post totally shocked me. I wondered about the numbers Sarah used, so I went looking for verification. As I did this I opted to use the pro-life movement’s own numbers on the rate of fertilized eggs that fail to implant for women on the pill. Remember, once again, that scientific studies have found again and again that the pill does not result in fertilized eggs failing to implant. However, I felt that if I used the pro-life movement’s own numbers I could not be accused of simply using studies with a liberal bias. And so I explored the numbers. What I found was that Sarah’s numbers were off. What I found was that for every 100 fertile women on birth control each month, only 0.15 fertilized eggs will be flushed out. In contrast, for every 100 fertile women not on birth control in a given month, 16 fertilized eggs will be flushed out. In other words, Sarah’s numbers were far too conservative. She was more right than she knew. It is the people not using birth control that are “murdering” the most “children,” not women on the pill.

After reading Sarah’s article and doing the math using the pro-life movement’s own numbers, I concluded that the idea that the pill is an abortifacient is used as a smokescreen. It has to be. If the pro-life movement believes that even a very small chance of a zygote being flushed out is enough reason to oppose the use of the pill, then there should be an extreme amount of concern about the much, much higher number of fertilized eggs flushed out of the bodies of women not using the pill. Anyone who really thinks about it cannot help but come to the conclusion that if your goal is to save “unborn babies,” and if you truly believe that a zygote – a fertilized egg – has the same value and worth as you or I – the only responsible thing to do is to put every sexually active woman on the pill. Sure, according to the pro-life movement’s figures a few fertilized eggs would still fail to implant and thus “die,” once again according to their own figures, an enormous number of these “deaths” would be prevented.

And yet, the pro-life movement still up the pill as a great evil. Pro-life doctors often refuse to prescribe the pill, and pro-life pharmacists refuse to fill prescriptions for it. This makes utterly no sense unless the point is not “saving unborn babies” but rather making sure that women who dare to have sex have to face the “consequences,” i.e. pregnancy and children. As I thought through all of the implications of Sarah’s article, the benefit of the doubt that I had been giving the pro-life movement began to falter. How could they justify opposing the pill when putting sexually active women on the pill would actually save the lives of unborn babies?

Why No 5K to Save the Zygotes?

A few months after reading Sarah’s article I came upon one by Fred Clark. In it, he argues that if those who oppose abortion really believe that every fertilized egg is a person we ought to see 5K fundraisers to save these zygotes. This is very much like what I said above, except that the focus here is whether the 50% of all zygotes – 50% of all fertilized eggs – that die before pregnancy even begins could be saved. Fred suggests that if the pro-life movement really is about saving unborn babies, and if those in the pro-life movement really do believe that life begins at fertilization, then pro-lifers really ought to be extremely concerned about finding a way to save all of these lives. But they’re not.

Name a disease and there’s a charitable research foundation committed to finding a cure, and for just about every such foundation there’s a corresponding 5k race or walkathon, lemonade stand, bake sale, golf tournament, banquet, concert, gala or festival to raise funds.

But for the biggest killer of them all, there’s nothing.

No 5k or 10k. No walkathon. No foundation promoting research. No research.

The deadly scourge that claims half of all human lives ever conceived is completely ignored.

Here’s Jonathan Dudley discussing this killer in his book Broken Words:

Due to hormone imbalances, genetic anomalies, and a number of unknown factors, between 50 percent and 75 percent of embryos fail to implant in the uterus and are passed with the monthly menstrual flow. If we agree with pro-life advocates that every embryo is as morally valuable as an adult human, this means that more than half of humans immediately die. This fact provides pro-life advocates with an opportunity to follow through on their convictions. Surely, a moral response to a pandemic of this magnitude would be to rally the scientific community to devote the vast majority of its efforts to better understanding why this happens and trying to stop it. Yet the same pro-life leaders who declare that every embryo is morally equivalent to a fully developed child have done nothing to advocate such research. … Even if medicine could save only 10 percent of these embryos — and we don’t know because no one has cared enough to ask — it would be saving more lives than curing HIV, diabetes, and malaria combined. One could say that this massive loss of human life is natural, and therefore, humans are under no obligation to end it. But it is not clear why the same argument could not be used to justify complacency in the face of AIDS, cancer, heart disease, and other natural causes of human death.

For anyone who genuinely believes the pro-life argument that “every embryo is morally equivalent to a fully developed child,” the sort of research Dudley describes ought to be an inescapable obligation.

And yet there are no charitable events to support the foundations funding such research. No such foundations exist to be supported. No such research exists to be funded.

Reading Fred’s article compounded what I had felt reading Sarah’s article. The pro-life movement is not about “saving unborn babies.” It can’t be. As someone who as a child and teen really did believe that life – personhood – began at fertilization, and who really was in it to “save unborn babies,” this is baffling. If I had known all this, I would have been all for this sort of research. I would have been all for sexually active women using the pill to cut down on “deaths.” But I didn’t know any of this. The adults of the anti-abortion movement, though, and certainly the leaders, they surely must know these things. This isn’t rocket science, after all. They must know these things, and yet they are doing nothing.

The Ultimate Hypocrisy

Reading Sarah and Fred’s articles and then thinking them through and doing some research made me realize that those in the pro-life movement, or at least the leaders of the pro-life movement, are incredibly inconsistent. You simply can’t be against the pill for fear that it will result in flushed out zygotes and yet not concerned at all about the vastly greater number of zygotes flushed out naturally every day. At least, not if you really truly believe a zygote has the same worth as an infant, toddler, or adult, and not if you’re truly motivated solely by a desire to save the lives of these “unborn babies.” Fresh off of these thoughts, I came upon two news articles on the subject in the last week that have completely shattered the last bit of faith I had in the pro-life movement.

Barack Obama, Pro-Life Hero?

Those who oppose abortion are all set to vote for Romney because he has done things like voice approval for the personhood amendment, which would ban abortion, but what they don’t seem to realize is that, as I found out for the first time last week, Obama has already done more to reduce the number of abortions than any other president ever has or ever will.

On October 3, researchers at the Washington University School of Medicine published a study with profound implications for policy making in the United States. According to Dr. Jeffery Peipert, the study’s lead author, abortion rates can be expected to decline significantly—perhaps up to 75 percent—when contraceptives are made available to women free of charge. Declaring himself “very surprised” at the results, Peipert requested expedient publication of the study, noting its relevance to the upcoming election.

As most observers surely know, the Affordable Care Act (a.k.a. “Obamacare”) requires insurance coverage for birth control, a provision staunchly opposed by most of the same religious conservatives who oppose legalized abortion. If Peipert is correct, however, the ACA may prove the single most effective piece of “pro-life” legislation in the past forty years.

In the Affordable Care Act’s contraception mandate, we have a previously unimaginable opportunity for satisfying compromise on abortion. In accordance with liberal demands, the procedure will remain safe and legal, and reproductive choices will be extended to those who have been unable to afford them in the past. In exchange, conservatives will see abortion rates plummet, achieving a result comparable to that of illegality but without the fierce controversy or government imposition in the lives of individuals.

I am not so naïve as to believe that this conclusion is likely to be reached soon, or without further contest. Nor do I anticipate that Tom Minnery or Bryan Fischer will embrace President Obama as a pro-life hero. But it seems to me that, if conservatives really believe in the evil of abortion, they are morally obligated to embrace a policy that stands to limit it so impressively.

Obamacare stands to cut abortion rates by 75%. And yet, the pro-life movement has been leveraged in opposition to Obamacare, and most especially in opposition to the birth control mandate. They don’t believe women should be guaranteed access to free contraception even though this access is the number one proven best way to decrease the number of abortions. That access would, to use the rhetoric of the pro-life movement, prevent the murders of 900,000 unborn babies every year.

When I was pro-life, I truly believed it was about saving unborn babies. If I had seen a study like the one above – that making birth control available free of charge would cut the number of abortions by 75% – I would have immediately supported the requirement that all insurance companies offer birth control without copay. We’re talking about hundreds of thousands of lives. I cried about this as a child, cried about all the deaths. I felt guilty that I was one who had survived the abortion “holocaust.” Saving hundreds of thousands of these lives a year? I would have jumped at the idea!

And yet, the pro-life movement is fighting tooth and nail to repeal the very act they should be praising to the rooftops. In fact, some of them don’t even just think birth control shouldn’t be covered without copay, they don’t think birth control should be covered at all. When I read this study and thought about the pro-life response to Obamacare, I was baffled. Dumbstruck. But it gets worse.

Making It Harder to Afford Children

One thing I realized back in 2007 is that, given that six in ten women who have abortions already have at least one child and that three quarters of women who have abortions report that they cannot afford another child, if we want to bring abortion rates down we need to make sure that women can always afford to carry their pregnancies to term. Maternity and birth is expensive, adding your child to your health care plan is expensive, daycare is expensive, and on and on it goes. Raising children costs money, and women who have abortions know that.

The reasons women give for having an abortion underscore their understanding of the responsibilities of parenthood and family life. Three-fourths of women cite concern for or responsibility to other individuals; three-fourths say they cannot afford a child; three-fourths say that having a baby would interfere with work, school or the ability to care for dependents; and half say they do not want to be a single parent or are having problems with their husband or partner.

I realized, then, that if the goal is to cut the abortion rate, the pro-life movement should be working to make sure that women can afford to have and care for children. After all, a full three quarters of women who have abortions say they could not afford a child. If we found a way to offer more aid to parents, if we mandated things like paid maternity leave, subsidized childcare, and universal health insurance for pregnant women and for children, some women who would otherwise abort would almost certainly decide to carry their pregnancies to term. But the odd thing is, those who identify as “pro-life” are most adamant in opposing these kind of reforms. I knew this back in 2007, because I grew up in one of those families. I grew up believing that welfare should be abolished, that Head Start needed to be eliminated, that medicaid just enabled people to be lazy. I grew up in a family that wanted to abolish some of the very programs with the potential to decrease the number of abortions. When I shifted my position on this issue, I was in many ways simply becoming consistent.

With the advent of the Tea Party movement and new calls for a small government and for cutting things like welfare and food stamps, those who claim to believe abortion is murder, who claim to want to bring abortion rates down, have only done further damage to what credibility they had left in my eyes. And lately, it’s gotten worse. You see, in some cases conservatives are actively working to make it harder for poor women to afford to carry unintended pregnancies to term.

A Pennsylvania House bill seeks to limit the amount of TANF assistance that low-income women receive based on the amount of children they give birth to while covered under the program.

Despite the fact that low-income women who give birth to children would logically need increased assistance to care for their larger family, Pennsylvania lawmakers — State Reps. RoseMarie Swanger (R), Tom Caltagirone (D), Mark Gillen (R), Keith Gillespie (R), Adam Harris (R), and Mike Tobash (R) — don’t want their state’s welfare program to provide additional benefits for that newborn. If a woman gives birth to a child who was conceived from rape, she may seek an exception to this rule so that her welfare benefits aren’t slashed, but only if she can provide proof that she reported her sexual assault and her abuser’s identity to the police

In other words, this bill would make it so that if a poor woman gets pregnant, she has to decide whether to have an abortion or whether to carry to term, have the baby, and see her welfare benefits slashed, taking food out of the mouths of the children she is already struggling to feed. I want to say I’m surprised, but I’m really not, because I’m remembering rumblings underneath the polished surface of the things I was taught. This idea that women shouldn’t “spread their legs” if they’re not ready to raise the results of their promiscuity, that the government shouldn’t be expected to pick up the tab for some slut’s inability to say no. As a teen and a young adult, I never thought about how inconsistent these ideas were with the “saving unborn babies” pro-life rhetoric I so strongly believed in. But they are. If it’s all about “saving unborn babies,” it shouldn’t matter how those unborn babies are conceived, or whether their mothers are rich or poor, married or not.

If those who oppose abortion really believes that abortion is murder, they should be supporting programs that would make it easier for poor women to afford to carry pregnancies to term. Instead, they’re doing the opposite. Overwhelmingly, those who oppose abortion also want to cut welfare and medicaid. Without these programs, the number of women who choose abortion because they cannot afford to carry a given pregnancy to term will rise. Further, they are working against things like paid maternity leave, subsidized daycare, and universal health insurance for children, programs which would likely decrease the number of women who choose abortion because they cannot afford to carry a pregnancy to term. And in this specific case, conservatives want to penalize a poor woman who chooses to carry a pregnancy to term by making it harder for her to make ends meet.

This makes utterly no sense if the goal is to save babies.

Conclusion

After reading that last article just a couple days ago, I realized something. I am done making excuses for the pro-life movement. I am done trying to explain that the movement is not anti-woman. I am done trying to insist that the movement really is simply trying to “save unborn babies.” I’m done because it’s not true. The pro-life movement supports the exact policies that will keep abortion rates high. It is those who believe in choice who support policies that will bring the abortion rates down.

I was a dupe. I’m ready to admit it now.

The reality is that so-called pro-life movement is not about saving babies. It’s about regulating sex. That’s why they oppose birth control. That’s why they want to ban abortion even though doing so will simply drive women to have dangerous back alley abortions. That’s why they want to penalize women who take public assistance and then dare to have sex, leaving an exemption for those who become pregnant from rape. It’s not about babies. If it were about babies, they would be making access to birth control widespread and free and creating a comprehensive social safety net so that no woman finds herself with a pregnancy she can’t afford. They would be raising money for research on why half of all zygotes fail to implant and working to prevent miscarriages. It’s not about babies. It’s about controlling women. It’s about making sure they have consequences for having unapproved sex.

But I am very sure that there are other dupes out there. If you’re sitting there reading this thinking “but I really am in it to save unborn babies,” I am sure you’re not alone. After all, I was one of you.

If you are one who has been a part of the pro-life movement because you really do believe in “saving unborn babies,” it’s time to cut your ties with the movement. You may be an honest and kind-hearted person, but you’ve been had. You’ve been taken in. It’s time to let go. It’s time to support Obamacare’s birth control mandate, it’s time to call off opposition to birth control, and it’s time to get behind progressive programs that help provide for poor women and their children. It’s time to make your actions consistent with your motives. While I am myself no longer morally opposed to abortion, I and others like me share your desire to decrease the number of unplanned pregnancies and to ensure that every woman can afford the option of keeping her pregnancy.

We’d love to have you join us.

Addenda:

Before commenting, see my comment policy. If you liked what you read here, have a look at my welcome note for new readers.

For followup posts on issues addressed here, see: 

A Response to Objections on my Pro-Life Movement Post

More On Laws And Abortion: A Response to Bad Catholic

If You Don’t Want a Baby, Just Don’t Have Sex?

Okay Then, Let’s Talk about Natural Family Planning

 A Paradigm Shift: My “Aha” Moment on Abortion

On Married Women and Separating Sex from Procreation

  • Joe

    Finally, this is a conclusion I’ve reached without all of the number-crunching!

    First, let me say that I hope you pro-lifers keep on amping up the rhetoric. You will lose elections! Second, all of you armchair activists who “say” abortion=murder don’t really think that. If you did armed assaults on clinics/abortion docs/Planned Parenthood would be way more common. Third, if you are a Catholic and you join forces with sexually frustrated, greying patriarchs who REALLY, REALLY want you to focus on abortion then only altar boys will suffer.

    Why doesn’t Tim Dolan attack the Republican Party for its support of capital punnishment? Isn’t that RC teaching? Why doesn’t the Republican Party attack Benny XVI for his “rampant capitalism” rebuke? Why did Tim Dolan support Mitt Romney when his Prophet Joseph Smith called the Catholic Church an “abomination”? Why did nobody attack the Reverend Moon who claimed to finish what Jesus failed to accomplish: unification of all religions under him? The answer to all of these questions is: HYPOCRACY. The Religious Right uses their own limited Biblical isogesis to punnish political dissenters but forgive/ignore the pecadilloes of their own political confederates.

    No wonder the “nones” are growing in number.

  • Michelle

    Libby, thank you for sharing your story and your journey. I can relate to a lot of what you said, as I too was raised in an evangelical pro-life circle. In fact, I’d be surprised if our parents didn’t know eachother! I too have gone through a transformation of thought and have asked many of the questions you are asking. I’d love to collaborate ideas!

  • anita

    “With the advent of the Tea Party movement and new calls for a small government and for cutting things like welfare and food stamps, those who claim to believe abortion is murder, who claim to want to bring abortion rates down, have only done further damage to what credibility they had left in my eyes. And lately, it’s gotten worse. You see, in some cases conservatives are actively working to make it harder for poor women to afford to carry unintended pregnancies to term.”

    Bingo!

  • Bluebird

    The article and some comments discussed the zygotes (fertilized eggs) that get flushed out of the body. Zygotes are not life. Life can not be frozen. You can’t freeze a fetus, human, or animal and then revive them but you can freeze a zygote indefinitely. A zygote is potential for life just like an egg or a sperm and nothing more (you can freeze eggs and sperm also). Thinking that zygotes are equivalent humans, I am sorry, is irrational. A zygote being flushed out is natural, normal. Tthe conditions in the uterus were wrong or the zygote itself had a defect, either way nature is most likely eliminating an undesirable pregnancy – call it God’s will if you like. Unless a woman is dealing with fertility issues, zygotes being lost to the menstrual cycle should not be a concern. You start on this road of talk, it makes me think if abortion is murder, then a miscarriage is involuntary manslaughter. Not only can a woman not terminate a pregnancy, take birth control, but she must at all times make sure her womb and hormones are prefectly balanced for pregnancy, even if she doesn’t want to get pregnant. If the body flushing a zygote, is ending a human life, then why not random uterine tests to make sure women aren’t unintentionally killing human life? Fines if they aren’t monitoring their hormones.

    I enjoyed the article (and winning one over to the darkside… bwhahaha). Seriously, no pro-choice person likes abortion, many even think it is immoral, and no woman wants to have an abortion. Pro-choice people do want reduce unwanted pregnancies and birth control is the most rational way. Since the topic is so divisive, I wish there were no unwanted pregnancies and the topic was moot.

    • puzzled_one

      “Call it God’s will if you like.”

      But that’s exactly what it is.

      ” You start on this road of talk, it makes me think if abortion is murder, then a miscarriage is involuntary manslaughter. ”

      Well, abortion is murder – make no mistake about it. You only have to read about Kermit Gosnell.

      As regards manslaughter, why are you playing word games with your conscience?

      Here’s more on manslaughter from Wikipedia – neither of these description apply to a unfortunate woman suffering a miscarriage:

      “It is normally divided into two categories; constructive manslaughter and criminally negligent manslaughter, both of which involve criminal liability.”

    • Anat

      I like abortion. I like it the way I like root canals and heart surgery – really not pleasant, better not needed, but grateful they exist for those who need them.

      • Kennedy

        Go be witness to a late-term abortion and let us know if you still “like abortions”.

      • Alix

        I do!

  • greenpersephone

    Here is a response from a woman who went the other way — a bit lazy of me, but a far more effective way of answering this. Her reasons, and yours, centre around contraception. http://www.lifesitenews.com/news/why-my-support-for-abortion-was-based-on-loveand-lies

  • K. Grady, PhD

    I was given this link to Libby Anne’s blog on Pro-Life in a facebook post by my son’s girlfriend, who is particular about her posts. While I have been aware of the broad strokes of issues involved in this subject, I will admit a good deal of ignorance on its specifics, as so well elucidated by the writer, although I have always supportive of women being in charge of their bodies.
    However, like Libby Anne prior to her transformation, I admit that I did not like the act of abortions, most notably after the later stages of development when the fetus so strongly resembles a person. While I still dislike abortion at this stage, I cannot logically argue that prohibiting it reduces the overall abortion rate, as her reporting of the research on this issue by sources that would seem to reliable. Moreover, her research would seem to show that women will continue to have abortions, even in countries where it is illegal, and that such “illegal” abortions commonly endanger the lives of the women, which I believe, was a central force moving the legislation to legalize abortion in this country.
    Rather than seeking to control us, as those behind the Pro-Life Movement seem focused on, through distortions and propaganda, Libby Anne’s article informs the reader of the facts and perspectives on the relevant political and ethical issues surrounding women’s rights to their bodies, freeing people from prejudice and misinformation, so that they might work to improve conditions for all involved in the human endeavor of living life in a loving and ethical manner.
    Thank you Libby Anne for helping me better understand these issues.

    concerning women’s rights and so that the reader may better understand the issues and determine their own solutions to a difficult issue.
    Thank you Libby Anne for helping make me aware of the nuances involved in the Pro-Life Movement!

  • K. Grady, PhD

    I was given this link to Libby Anne’s blog on Pro-Life in a facebook post by my son’s girlfriend, who is particular about her posts. While I have been aware of the broad strokes of issues involved in this subject, I will admit a good deal of ignorance on its specifics, as so well elucidated by the writer, although I have always supportive of women being in charge of their bodies.
    However, like Libby Anne prior to her transformation, I admit that I did not like the act of abortions, most notably after the later stages of development when the fetus so strongly resembles a person. While I still dislike abortion at this stage, I cannot logically argue that prohibiting it reduces the overall abortion rate, as her reporting of the research on this issue by sources that would seem to reliable. Moreover, her research would seem to show that women will continue to have abortions, even in countries where it is illegal, and that such “illegal” abortions commonly endanger the lives of the women, which I believe, was a central force moving the legislation to legalize abortion in this country.
    Rather than seeking to control us, as those behind the Pro-Life Movement seem focused on, through distortions and propaganda, Libby Anne’s article informs the reader of the facts and perspectives on the relevant political and ethical issues surrounding women’s rights to their bodies, freeing people from prejudice and misinformation, so that they might work to improve conditions for all involved in the human endeavor of living life in a loving and ethical manner.
    Thank you Libby Anne for helping me better understand these issues.

    • e_lizabeth

      Ugh. The NYT is not a reliable source. Why? Because like most media the majority of stories report ONLY what conforms to their agenda. If it doesn’t conform to their agenda, we won’t see it in the Times — or the spin will be so extreme you won’t even recognize the story.
      As the mother of 3, it is obvious to me that unborn children are people.
      It is obvious that abortion kills a baby.
      Less than obvious is the claim of abortion as a right has reduced women to objects of sexual gratification for men, who are more than happy to have sex and abandon their partner if she conceives. Of the children born to women who are unmarried, 41% will grow up in poverty. WHY would anyone want women to endure this kind of existence? Why would anyone WANT to replace a father in the home with a welfare check? I guess you cannot have socialism unless you have government replace dad, and you can’t have the government controlling people’s lives if you do not create a permanent underclass of people who will always look to someone else to be responsible for their actions.
      In practice, prolifers tend to donate extravagantly to supporting unwed mothers. However, in an ideal world, babies would be born to married couples. I do not see how sexualizing 9 to 14 year old girls, for example, helps them in life, although it does make pharma, government, Planned Parenthood, and a host of other parasites much more wealthy, and greatly contributes to the creation of a permanent and dependent underclass of people.
      Having me pay for abortions? No, I don’t think so. Having others pay for your contraception? No. It simply amazes me to see what lengths the lefties will go to steal food from my kids mouths so their lifestyle choices and leftist institutions can be subsidized.

      • Anat

        As the mother of one it is obvious to me that a fetus, even close to birth, isn’t a person, and an embryo (which is what most abortions kill) is even further from being one. How convincing is the argument from ‘it is obvious to me’? Don’t forget that many women who have abortions are already mothers. If motherhood makes it so obvious that abortion kills a person that is evidently not universally obvious.

        Some men have been using women for sexual gratification since the emergence of our species. Women being abandoned by their sexual partners have always been around. It is absence of abortion that would send these abandoned women into poverty (or into deeper poverty than they were already in). Not having abortion as an option will not keep men who do not want to commit around, and families formed not because people want to spend their lives together but out of desperation are not what I would call a good outcome.

        It is better use of the taxpayer’s money to pay for contraception and abortion than for raising children their parents can’t support.

      • Christine

        As someone who intentionally got pregnant, there is no way I can believe that a first trimester pregnancy termination is murder. Otherwise I would never have dared to stop using contraception, because of the large number of deaths that would result naturally.

      • latetotheparty

        “In practice, prolifers tend to donate extravagantly to supporting unwed mothers.”
        do tell, e_lizabeth. where are statistics/documentation of unwed mothers receiving this extravagant aid?

      • Fitz

        “As a mother of 3″. Right, because the simple act of gestation and parturition confers immediate understanding of all things biological and scientific. You know, it boggles my mind how society has changed so that apparently any random personal fact about oneself mitigates and even supercedes scientific and rational arguments. As a scientist and medical doctor, first trimester pregnancies are NOT “children”, for the sole fact that at that gestational age, the embryo/fetus can not survive outside of the human body. Heck, even at a GA of 28 weeks, the baby, if expelled from the body, requires extensive time in the NICU. And before the mid-1900s, we did not have that technology, and the baby would have died. So tell me, how is an 8 week old group of cells (because that is what it is, really, since it can not survive outside of the body, and is still developing) considered a separate life?

        I am religious, and don’t believe (FOR MYSELF) in premarital intercourse. However, I understand that that’s not realistic for the vast majority of the population. Basically, your entire argument is founded upon the fact that if anyone gets pregnant outside of wedlock, it is because they are a dirty slut, and you, who is oh, so virtuous should not have to pay for their mistakes. “Taking food out of your kids’ mouths” indeed! It is not about lifestyle institutions or being a leftie – it is simply about caring for another human being! It amazes me that you, who claim to care about a clump of cells, are so cavalier about a living being human being who is in dire straights simply because they have made choices that you did not or with which you disagree. That is the epitome of hypocrisy.

      • Rosie

        It’s a small thing, but I want to point out that “married” in no way automatically confers the ability, desire, or willingness to become a parent. I’ve been married for a dozen years now, and am no more ready or willing to parent now than I was when I was 17 and single.

  • mhckxpor

    We have found the source of evil… and it is you!

  • Kayla

    it is my body, and with it i will do as I please. It is not up to any organization or government to make decisions about what I do with it for me. I appreciate that some people believe the things the bible says, and i do not wish to disrespect those beliefs, but i do request the same respect to be given to me and my beliefs. My beliefs do not happen to coincide with those who are catholic or christian. I do not believe in heaven and hell… and so abortion and birth control do not bother me in the least. A woman has every right to choose for herself what is right for her, it should not matter in the slightest what some one else who does not even know her thinks she should do.

    What about all the sperm that are lost on a regular basis to masturbation?? should that be illegal too? No, because that is ridiculous.. but it is a sin right? Where are the campaigns against ejaculation? Shouldnt there be pickets outside teenage boy’s bedroom windows to shame them out of touching themselves? Why is it that if they don’t masturbate they will inevitably ejaculate anyways? Don’t you think that is a little flawed? and so by the rules they are going to hell right? But why is it that they get to choose and women don’t?

    there are arguments for either side in this, and the only thing that makes any of those things right are the personal beliefs of those reading and writing them. No one person is more right than the other.. we can argue until we are blue in the face and still there will be some thing that can be used as an opposition to the other side. It is pointless.

    Like the article states, it is not about the unborn babies it is about controlling how women use their bodies and I am not interested in those who feel they can appoint themselves the authority on my body or anyone else’s , who gives them the right?

    To be pro-life seems to me the same as assuming that you are then also the authority on what others should believe and that your beliefs are right while their’s are wrong. Like i said before, i do not care what you believe, but at least do me the same courtesy.

    • latetotheparty

      brava… but your last sentence falls a bit flat, because most if not all of those you are addressing actually _do_ extend ‘the same courtesy’ – of not caring what you believe…

  • Chuck

    You are intelligent and obviously concerned for and involved in the ultimate goal of improving the lives of people. That said, you still have to answer the question of when does a human life begin. When does a child have the inalienable right of life. If I understand you after a complete
    reading, it appears that you would by law protect those rights beginning when the umbilical cord is cut. Have I understood you correctly regarding the legal beginning of life? Thank you in advance for your response. gpacharlie@gmail.com

    • phantomreader42

      Chuck, did you notice that you completely erased the WOMAN from the situation? Did you even consider HER rights for an instant? No, of course you didn’t, because you know that denying the humanity of women is the only way to enforce your vile agenda.

      I don’t believe the fetus-fetishist bullshit that an embryo is somehow magically a human being at the instant of conception, and I see no reason to take that delusion seriously, especially given the fetus-fetishists dismal failure at being honest or consistent about it. But when it gets right down to it, I don’t really give a flying fuck if a fetus is a person or a parasite or a magical unicorn. Because an actual, living, breathing WOMAN is UNAMBIGUOUSLY A PERSON WITH FULL HUMAN RIGHTS! If a woman is not a person, then the term has no meaning or relevance. And as a person, she has the right to decide who uses her organs, and whether or not she wants to spend nine months risking her life and health for a parasite. That is HER decision, not something a pack of delusional old men and their imaginary god get to choose for her. There is no way for the fetus-fetishists to get their way other than erasing the rights of the WOMAN (just like Chuck just did). And no, they don’t get to do that.

      BTW, any fetus-fetishists who think human beings have the right to hijack the organs of other human beings without consent, please feel free to post your location and blood type. I know some people who could use a kidney. :P

      • Christine

        phantomreader42, may I point out that comparing having an abortion to refusing to donate a kidney isn’t a very good argument. “The law can’t force you to do the right thing here either” doesn’t affect the “abortion is wrong” argument…

        And I’d offer to help, but I’m O+.

      • phantomreader42

        Christine, if a human being has the right to hijack the organs of another human being without consent, at great pain and risk to the owner of said organs (as the fetus-fetishists claim when they pretend a fetus is a human being but a woman isn’t), then anyone who wants a kidney (or any other organ) should have just as much right to kidnap any random fetus-fetishist and harvest their organs without asking permission or providing anesthetic (though I still would recommend anesthetic because without it they’re likely to struggle and risk damage to the organ). The fact that fetus-fetishists think THEY should be allowed to keep control of their own organs, but women shouldn’t, just proves that fetus-fetishists are full of shit.

        I know that a human being does not have the right to hijack the organs of another human being without consent, but Chuck and his fellow cultists apparently do not.

  • best internet forum

    I really appreciate this post. I’ve been looking all over for this! Thank goodness I found it on Bing. You’ve made my day! Thank you again! “That which does not kill us makes us stronger.” by Friedrich Nietzsche.

  • Caitlin

    Science is on the side of the prolife movement. I am genuinely prolife bc I believe that every person has a right to life and that women deserve better than abortion. I came to this conclusion on my own through a deeply personal and sad experience as a child. Science has proven that an unborn child/fetus can sense pain as early as eleven weeks. That means that while their bodies are being mutilated in their mother’s womb, they can feel it. It is torturous for them. Also, insulting my motives and implying that to be prolife is to be deceived does not convince me of the validity of your views. There’s one fact you cannot ignore…. Abortion stops a beating heart. That’s huge and I’m sorry you have come to the point where you can overlook that biological FACT, but I cannot.

    • Rosie

      “Abortion stops a beating heart”…though at 5 weeks gestation, when I had my abortion, even that’s somewhat iffy. (I saw the ultrasound; the pregnancy looked like a pea.) A chicken sandwich stops a beating heart for sure, and a chicken has enough neurological function to actively fight its own death besides. That hasn’t stopped me from eating meat though, because I need to do so to survive (some people can be vegetarian, or mostly so, with no ill effects, but I am not one of those). You can argue that abortion is inherently inhumane (I disagree, based on my knowledge of human development and on the fact that most abortions occur in the first trimester, when the embryo has less neurological function than the aforementioned adolescent chicken), but that won’t stop women from choosing that option if they feel they need to do so for their continued survival. No more than it stops most of us from eating meat.

    • Anat

      What is your evidence that an 11-week-ol fetus can feel pain? this is not the medical consensus.

      See Fetal pain: a systematic multidisciplinary review of the evidence.

      From there:

      EVIDENCE SYNTHESIS:

      Pain perception requires conscious recognition or awareness of a noxious stimulus. Neither withdrawal reflexes nor hormonal stress responses to invasive procedures prove the existence of fetal pain, because they can be elicited by nonpainful stimuli and occur without conscious cortical processing. Fetal awareness of noxious stimuli requires functional thalamocortical connections. Thalamocortical fibers begin appearing between 23 to 30 weeks’ gestational age, while electroencephalography suggests the capacity for functional pain perception in preterm neonates probably does not exist before 29 or 30 weeks. For fetal surgery, women may receive general anesthesia and/or analgesics intended for placental transfer, and parenteral opioids may be administered to the fetus under direct or sonographic visualization. In these circumstances, administration of anesthesia and analgesia serves purposes unrelated to reduction of fetal pain, including inhibition of fetal movement, prevention of fetal hormonal stress responses, and induction of uterine atony.
      CONCLUSIONS:

      Evidence regarding the capacity for fetal pain is limited but indicates that fetal perception of pain is unlikely before the third trimester. Little or no evidence addresses the effectiveness of direct fetal anesthetic or analgesic techniques. Similarly, limited or no data exist on the safety of such techniques for pregnant women in the context of abortion. Anesthetic techniques currently used during fetal surgery are not directly applicable to abortion procedures.
      ——————-

      Very few abortions are performed in the third trimester, mostly because of serious complications or late-discovered fetal defects. If access to abortion in early pregnancy were easy for all the demand for later abortions would decrease even more.

      Can you please explain the relevance of fetal heartbeat? The heart is just a muscle that pumps blood. It is not the seat of emotions, the ‘soul’ (what is that anyway?) or anything else.

  • Caitlin

    And btw….. I have no desire to control anyone’s sexuality and I, along with the vast majority of crazy prolifers, am not again birth control. Only destroying the body of a living human.

    • Monimonika

      So… you would be against abortions for ectopic pregnancies, right? Since you place so much emphasis on fetal heartbeat, you must logically be in complete agreement with laws that prevent abortions of any kind (even for clearly doomed pregnancies) being performed unless the heart of fetuses stops beating on its own. Even if the pregnancy is or will be harming/killing the pregnant woman/girl.

      Order of importance: Heart muscles > body of the incubator

  • Kim McLilith

    I really enjoyed reading this. I am a sex-positive, polyamorous, pansexual feminist and I see a lot of crap from repressed and ignorant people all over the internet. As someone who NEVER wants to have children (a growing trend) The prospect of “waiting until marriage” is utterly lost on many of my kind.
    1. How does one avoid pregnancy AFTER marriage?
    2. Why should I HAVE to marry one person if I love ALL my partners equally?
    3. Would marriage be required for my same-sex partners as well?

  • Just Wondering

    I have a question: Why are other forms of birth control (like a condom, for one) not ok with those people who think preventing implantation with hormones is an abortion? The sperm never even comes in contact with the egg in this case. If we had widespread sex education and ONLY PROMOTED CONDOMS it would still prevent a lot of unwanted pregnancies. A lot of times, however, these organizations don’t like ANY form of birth control. Why? It doesnt make any sense and doesnt support the argument at all. Unless, of course, it TRULY is about CONTROLLING a woman’s sex life.

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  • Bubs

    If contraception is the answer, why then do we have a mass slaughter of unborn children every year in an age of modern medicine with a plethora of contraceptives at hand?? It is obvious contraception/education is not working. What we are told is that the embryo, foetus is a bunch of cells and is not human but a potential person. Why is that? Because we are taught in biology that the ‘clump of cells’ goes thru various evolutionary stages – similar to our ancestors. Therefore abortion cannot be baby killing can it? Just removing a product of conception – a blob ‘science’ tells us is part of an evolutionary process. Right?
    WRONG!
    The human fetus and embryo do not go thru any so-called evolutionary process. This idea was coined by the 19thC German zoologist Ernst Haeckel – a rabid supporter of Darwin. He produced a set of drawings trying to show that the human inside the womb is no different to other animals at the same stage of development in their respective wombs. This nonsense was shown to be a fraud soon after Haeckel published his work. In 1995, photos were taken of the same embryos all at the same stage of development in the womb. There is no similarity with us – no infamous ‘fish stage’ or ‘gill slits’ etc. The false world view of evolution underpins pro-abortion thinking. It is the main reason why we have such a mass genocide of baby killing. In evolutionary thinking, there are no absolutes, other than personal opinion & the collective opinion of many. Truth can therefore be redefined. Humanity can and has been redefined, no longer created in the image of God, but a product of re-arranged pond scum over millions of years. Atheism says there are is no God, no ethics, no ultimate moral authority, no purpose to existence other than to pass on our DNA.

    Have you noticed our western society, once founded on biblical principles has now deteriorated – primarily because the Biblical world view was replaced by a Godless one – humanism, along with all its adjunct evil and misery. Survival of the fittest – if you don’t fit in we will eliminate you from society. Here is an example of how the anti-God thinking goes. Unborn baby is substituted for 2year old (2yo) to show how horrific pro abortion arguments are:
    A 2yo is so disruptive and causing such heartache for his solo mother that she wants him killed, and people support her “right to choose” to kill her own child in the following ways (paralleling many “pro-choice” arguments):
    1.How dare you pass judgment on the woman, when you have no idea what she’s going through?
    2.You’re a male, so you have no right to comment.
    3.It’s the right of every 2yo to be wanted.
    4. No one’s forcing you to kill your own 2yo.
    5.Keep your church out of my home!
    6.We’re not pro–killing-2yos, we’re pro-choice.
    7.We want to make 2yo-killing safe, legal and rare.
    8.If we make laws against this, then those who are rich enough will be able to hire a hit man to kill the toddler, while the poor could not afford this, so such laws would discriminate against the poor.
    9.Unless you are prepared to adopt this child, you have no right to tell the mother that she should not kill her.
    10.If we don’t make it possible for the mother to kill her 2yo safely, then she’ll do it unsafely and possibly put her own health in danger.
    11.Laws against 2yo-killing would violate the woman’s right to privacy, which judges tell us is in the US Constitution.
    12.It’s speciesist to give a Homo sapiens 2yo so much more protection than a chimpanzee 2yo.
    13.You’re opposed to killing 2yos only because you’re a religious fanatic.
    14.The child was conceived by incestuous rape, and her existence is a continual reminder to her mother of what happened, so she should die because of her father’s crime.
    15.Stem cells could be harvested from this 2yo that could help cure many horrible diseases and disabilities—you religious fanatics want to stop this scientific research and cut off all hope of a cure for Alzheimer’s, heart disease, Parkinson’s, quadriplegia and diabetes.
    Reference for these arguments and Heackel’s fraud can be found at creation.com

    Trust this sheds some light on the subject

    • Nea

      It sheds light on your ability to come in very late and miss the point by miles, certainly. I think you miss the point of your talking points too: I notice that two of them do not address “killing a 2yo” and are actually basic statments of human rights. Can you figure out which two?

  • Chris Noonan

    Who cares who says its wrong, the fact remains and you can cover it anyway you want, abortion is murder, if it makes you feel better to say its only a bunch of cells or its a womens right to have control over her body, what about rape and incest, well what about!!! it only 2 percent of abortions are because of rape/incest, so lets talk about the other 98% so women have to have rights but what about responsibilty??? oh thats right he forgot the condom and we went too far, oh I can take the pill, I am allergic to condoms, I was too drunk, I thought it was a safe time, I can’t have a baby now its not the right time for me , Familiar???, but it doesn’t matter does it if you fall pregnant , no matter just exercise your rights and flush that bunch of cells down the toilet, what about if your 1/2 way along no problem you can just have the “Foetus” dumped in a cold metal dish to fight for breath and eventually die. Dont like what I have just said??? well as Nicholson so succinctly put it “you cant handle the truth” and for those reading this that have had an abortion many of you will suffer guilt and loss your whole life, so have your rights with your body but for your own sake as well as the babies take responsibility for your body as well

    • FlSam

      Let me guess….you’re against the Pill as well. So really, you are NOT pro-life, you are pro-forced birth. You can cover that little bit of misogyny up any way you want, but it won’t change reality.

  • http://lakeblrlantleyhomes.com Cassi Dupuy

    I loved the blog post! I SO agree with what you’ve said, and found some really useful tips here as well.

    • Sharon Campbell

      What you saying is very surprising considering the fact that 56,000,000+ million babies have been aborted in the United states since the 1973 Roe vs. Wade decision an and over 1.3 billion worldwide since 1980. Compare to about 1, 5000,000 soldiers that gave their lives in all the wars combined in the entire history of the United States of America and the 50-70 million people from many nations that died worldwide during World War Two. After 30 years she (Norma McCorvey known as Roe) left the pro-choice movement to tell the truth and the horrors of abortion; she just couldn’t do it anymore so she travels the nation to tell of her experiences. The pro-abortion movement can say that they reduce abortion! Of the fifty-six+ million babies who lost their life about a half of them would have been females that would have, had the ability to grow up and re-produce, but they are not there to reproduce or for that matter have abortions. Of course there will be fewer abortions since there are fewer people as a result of years of abortions, especially in Black community.
      Therefore the science does not work to say, that the pro-abortion or pro-choice movement reduce abortions. How do you figure that out when you are decreasing the amount of females that would be there to have babies or choose to have abortions because they never had a chance to live themselves?
      Have you wondered why is it that the nation is only 11-12% black but 35% of all babies aborted are black? Well everyone needs to watch the series “The Black Holocaust on YouTube and read up on all the materials presented there”. Abortion didn’t just happen; it was a planned assault on the less desirable of society, not just of the former black slaves but also the diseased, the cripple and the mentally ill. Much more to say but I will save it for another time.

      • Jenn

        …What? Did you even read her article?

        Pro-life is actually pro-choice. It’s choosing ignorance. I wonder if available contraception might have been able to play a part in the 56,000,000 lives lost to abortion, or perhaps you think that illegalizing abortion would have brought the number down. I would bet that more Black children are aborted because Black communities had/have less available contraception and therefore more unwanted pregnancies. But birth control is evil to you, isn’t it?

        Again, I don’t believe you read this article because it doesn’t refute any of your claims, it just shows how your claims are completely inconsistent with reducing abortions. Yes, there have been lots of abortions since 1973, LOTS of them, but illegalization is not the answer. Birth control is the answer.

        In addition, individuals make the choice to have abortions. The practice is not a “planned assault.” It is called “unplanned pregnancy” and it is a tragedy for women who find themselves in such a circumstance. Banning abortion is like closing your eyes, plugging your ears, and screaming “Nah nahnah nah naaah, now it’s not happening!” When in reality it is. In an alley, with a coat hanger. You aren’t saving lives, you are destroying the lives that are already here.

    • Mike

      More contraception results in more sex which results in more pregnancies and therefore more abortions. This link part 3 shows it http://www.patheos.com/blogs/badcatholic/2012/11/how-i-lost-faith-in-the-pro-life-movement-rebuttal-up-in-hurrrrr-part-1.html
      Also, the statistics Libby Anne used on abortion rates are based on the number of abortions per woman, not per unborn child. Plus, common contraceptive devices like IUDs, plan Bs, and ellas cause abortions directly and were likely not counted in her statistics. I also find two other interesting things. For one, many people who support the contraception and abortifacient mandate (which covers abortion inducing drugs and devices as well, not just birth control pills) are people who claim to be Pro-Choice. How does forcing employers to give out abortifacients and not giving them a choice mean these people are being Pro-Choice and giving them a choice? Also these people claim to want to keep the government out of people’s bedrooms despite forcing businesses to give out items like birth control pills and IUDs that are used in the bedroom. Libby Anne also shows support for Obamacare, which forces people to pay for abortions with their taxes and not giving them a choice. So much for being Pro-Choice.

      • Michael Busch

        >>More contraception results in more sex which results in more pregnancies and therefore more abortions<<

        No. That is offensively inaccurate bullshit.

        The failure rates of effective contraceptives are _independent_ of how often people have sex. IUDs, implants, and pills work by suppressing ovulation and fertilization. No zygote.

        And even for condoms, which have a failure rate proportional to the amount of sex people have, your statement is incredibly wrong. Demographics: 85% of women having unprotected intercourse become pregnant within 12 months. That rate typically drops to 15% for women whose male partners use condoms. So you are off by a factor of six in the worse case, and a more than a factor of 1000 in the best case. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_birth_control_methods

        Contraceptives are not abortifacients, and a business is _not_ a person. Cut the bull.

      • Michael Busch

        @myself: To clarify: that should be the failure rate “typically drops to 15% for women whose male partners use condoms, when no other contraceptive method is being used”. The best results are obtained by stacking different methods of contraception. 0.05%/year failure rate for implants and 0.2%year for IUDs can be reduced by another factor of 6 or more with condom use. And of course condoms are also used to reduce STI transmission.

      • Nea

        How does forcing employers to give out abortifacients and not giving them a choice mean these people are being Pro-Choice and giving them a choice? Also these people claim to want to keep the government out of people’s bedrooms despite forcing businesses to give out items like birth control pills and IUDs that are used in the bedroom

        The First Amendment says my employer cannot force me to live according to my employer’s religion if it conflicts with my own. That means my employer cannot use a religious reason to deny me any part of health care under law. “Obamacare” closes the loophole that allowed a pro-life employer to deny me birth control, a privilege no other religious belief has ever been afforded anyway – a Jehovah’s Witness employer never could deny me a blood transfusion and a Christian Scientist employer could never deny me health insurance in the first place. You are claiming a special privilege that no other religious employer has ever had, the “right” to force your religion on another person, and whining that you’re being persecuted when you’re being stopped from violating other people’s First Amendment rights.

  • Tina B

    I am and have always been pro-choice, though the idea of abortions saddens me. As a teeneager I witnessed the case of a catholic woman having multiple abortions because the pope said that contraception was sinful and just couldn’t get my head arund the idea that abortion was less ‘sinful’. As I have matured, I have known women for whom being forced to carry a pregnancy to term would have been a terrible mistake, both for themselves and for the resulting, unwanted child. I have never had an abortion, I am glad I was never in a position to need one, but do not condemn those who do so even as I wish it weren’t happening for purely emotional reasons. Your post was eye-opening to me too. I am horrified that this issue is being batted about like a political ball and that the religious right are attempting to impose their ignorant dogma onto an entire population in this way.
    Thank you for having the courage to post the truth. I hope that many pro-lifers also read this and take it on board, but I sadly feel that all too many will refuse to open their eyes as they cannot deal with information which conflicts with their heavily embedded belief system.

    • adriene

      So this “catholic” women obeyed the pope and did not used birth control yet went ahead and engaged in sex and abortions?? That makes no sense..

      And I completely disagree with this article.

      • Sarah

        This is exactly the problem with patriarchy. Women are always the ones who get stuck between the double standards: The Church says sex in sinful, while the rest of society encourages it”. In the end, it’s the woman that gets blamed, although she often has no say in either institution; not the church, not the main stream media, both of which capitalize on and encourage “slut-shaming.”

      • Malitia

        What? If the sex was not extramarital she was adhering to the dogma. Being married doesn’t makes every child magically wanted, you know.

      • Mahndisa

        This is a misguided point of view that shows the author has been taken in by the wiles of the wicked. If the zygote isn’t a human being, what is it? A tadpole? I actually believe that women should be able to take birth control pills if they want but I am avidly pro life. This has caused some friction in the movement but so what? Rare is it when you have 100% agreement with anyone or any organization. What matters is that women are shown that abortion is murder and that there are other alternatives to it. Open adoptions are occurring with increasing frequency and Christian adoption agencies tend to recommend them so the child(ren) will at least know who their parents are and there is a possibility of having some type of relationship with them. Don’t be fooled people. Look at Gianna Jesson and tell me that abortion is okay.

      • Anat

        A human zygote is not a person. It is an entity that if implanted in a woman’s womb and if the woman were to make the effort to support and sustain it, may eventually develop into a person.

        Abortion is not murder, it is the refusal to allow oneself be used against one’s will.

        Adoptions, open or otherwise, do not solve the risks that women endure by remaining pregnant. Nor are adoptions equally available to all who might want to go this route – minority babies and babies with birth defects are not particularly in demand.

  • Mark

    You said:

    “Given that the pro-life movement focuses on banning abortion and is generally opposed advocating greater contraceptive use, I knew that I no longer fit.”

    So, this is about “fitting in with one side or another”, instead of going it alone and thinking for oneself?

    You continued:

    “I also knew that my biggest allies in decreasing the number of abortions were those who supported increased birth control use – in other words, pro-choice progressives. And so I stopped calling myself pro-life.”

    Sorry, this is just garbage.

    Let’s go back to the key reason why you went from prolife to pro-abortion.

    You said that you found the “pro-life movement” to be disingenuous in it goals. You make out like it’s the “pro-life/anti-contraception” side versus the “pro-abortion/pro-contraception” movement.

    Excuse me, but can’t you think for yourself? Isn’t their a third way? So you were a pro-lifer who felt that contraception was a way to help reduce the number of abortions? Great! Then why couldn’t you remain pro-life AND hold on to your beliefs in regards to contraception (not necessarily all forms, but at least some)?

    This is just more prattle from somebody who needs to choose a side and hang with a group to validate her opinion. Me? I’m an atheist pro-lifer, and I know that confuses BOTH of the “traditional” sides of the issue (the evangelical pro-lifers and the church-hating pro-abortionists). I’ve had religious fanatics regard me with suspicion just as I’ve had ardent pro-abortionists reject the idea of an atheist pro-lifer. But if the concept of an atheist pro-lifer is too much for them to handle, so be it. I’m me and that’s what counts.

    • http://gamesgirlsgods.blogspot.com/ M

      Well, Libby Anne also talked about how, while the pro-life side is disingenuous, she realized that they wanted to control women instead of saving babies. When she realized that pro-life is in fact all about controlling women no matter how you feel about the babies, she called herself pro-choice. You cannot be pro-life and also Humanist. You cannot be pro-life and a feminist. Every woman has the right to choose for herself whether she wishes to temporarily donate an organ to a parasite that might turn into a human being, just as you have the right to decide whether to donate your organs to save another’s life.

      • KFla

        I honestly do not understand when people say you can’t be pro-life and a feminist. In reality, the pro-life movement is protecting the life of not only the unborn child, but also of the mother. Think about it. Abortion hurts women (yes it can help in cases where the woman’s life is at risk–>8% of cases according to the Guttmacher Institute) in that it can lead to depression (42% according to this study done in New Zealand http://www.lifenews.com/2006/01/02/nat-1941/), anxiety, and other mental health risks. The pro-life movement looks far beyond a temporary crisis and worries about the well-being of the mother far beyond the year of pregnancy. It offers dignity and love and resources from women’s care centers with free prenatal screenings to a year’s worth of free diapers to free cribs and baby toys. This is far more than the pro-choice side does: it offers abortions and not much else in terms of resources and information (at least unbiased information). Be careful equating pro-life with anti-women. Pro-life pro-women is more accurate.

      • Nea

        I honestly do not understand when people say you can’t be pro-life and a feminist.

        Because some of us think Savita Halappanavar’s life and health was more important than preserving a fetal heartbeat against her will.

        Don’t complain about people not looking for “unbiased” news and then cite LifeNews as factual, especially when there are studies that prove the exact opposite of what you want to see. Don’t try to convince anyone who knows anything about childbirth that 1 year of diapers and toys constitutes “dignity and resources” “far beyond the year of pregnancy.”

      • Michael Busch

        KFla >>In reality, the pro-life movement is protecting the life of not only the unborn child, but also of the mother. Think about it. Abortion hurts women <<

        No.

        Risk of death from a normal uncomplicated pregnancy: 8.8/100,000 pregnancies.
        Risk of death from an 1st-trimester clinical abortion: 0.6/100,000 procedures.

        By that measure, abortion is _14_ times safer than pregnancy. I give references: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion#Safety

    • Beutelratti

      And you also seem to be a man so tell me again how you should have any right to tell a woman what she does with her body?

      “Excuse me, but can’t you think for yourself?” This is also utter ridiculous because Libby Anne showed quite clearly how thinking for herself made her distance herself from the pro-life movement. I think you’re the one who needs to do some thinking and maybe read this atircle again without your “BUT ABORTION!!! THE HORROR!!!”-glasses.

      • Sharon

        My God this is so…..scary when 56,000,000 babies have been aborted in the United States since 1973 and 1.3 billion worldwide since 1980 and people are speaking as if babies are just disposable. What if someone says I have too many children I am going to get rid of the youngest one: “she is only 5 days old and not too far from a late term partial birth abortion.” Would you anything to say? What is the difference between an abortion at 25 weeks, and a baby that lives after being born early at 25 week, only to have the mother say five days later: “well I didn’t really want any more kids, she is only 25 week and has only been born for 5 days, I don’t want her just get rid of (kill) her. I bet you would think that was wrong? What about the babies being killed by a deadly vacuum, pulling apart its body, limb by limb, until it is dead and not breathing. Oh we shouldn’t talk about the reality of abortion; we should lie and pretend as if it harms no one but shoot a pregnant deer and see what the government will say. The American eagle that is no longer near extinction is protected to a fault; if you are found with a feather you’re in trouble. A person will be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law with a charge of murder for killing a 1 day old baby, a five year boy or a sixty year old woman but it is her right to get pregnant as many times as she wants to and to kill all of her babies as long as she does it before it is born and is considered born and human. May God help us and have mercy upon us and forgive our land as the blood of fifty-six million+ babies cry out from the soil as did the blood of Abel in the Garden of Eden.
        They are human: who will protect them and what about their rights, both males and females.

      • Malitia

        Sharon:
        Emotional manipulation brings you nowhere, so “What’s your solution?”.
        The facts:
        1) Banning abortion just creates higher maternal-mortality rate (if I remember correctly Romania’s tripled), more infanticides, abandoned children and crime (desperate parents, abandoned bigger children, back alley doctors etc.). And would also just make the rich practice abortion tourism (as in Ireland) because where is demand there will be supply (Capitalism 101).
        2) Homo Sapiens is not an endangered species but one with a serious overpopulation problem (as we have no natural predators to regulate our excessive population growth). We would be seriously screwed (humanitarian catastrophe level screwed) if there were 1,8 billion more of us and we would probably not only kill but eat each other.

    • Malitia

      I just want to know where those pro-abortionists they keep talking about are as I never saw any and I was pro-choice all my life. And by pro-choice I mean: “Abortion is morally ambiguous but sometimes necessary or the lesser evil, so it should remain legal and accessible until someone comes up with a better solution.”
      Which (“What’s your solution?”) was by the way my question to all the pro-life people I ever met. To date all either dodged or refused to answer altogether. Almost as if they were only concerned about unborn people and never thought about the possible effects of an abortion ban or about the motivations behind abortion (outside of generic slut shaming).

      • Anat

        The pro-abortion people are in this thread and elsewhere. I am one. I don’t consider abortion morally ambiguous, from the aspect of the fetus. I see it as a medical procedure like any other, which should be performed as needed like any other. It would be good to reduce the need for abortion like it would be good to reduce the need for heart surgery – not because there is anything morally ambiguous about heart surgery but because being healthy in the first place involves more happiness and less suffering than being sick, having surgery and recovering. Similarly not getting pregnant when one doesn’t wish it is healthier and less stressful than having one’s contraception fail and having an abortion, but there is no moral reason not to use abortion as a means to get one’s life back where one wants it to be going.

    • ladyvanda

      Well, if you’d read the post, you would know the point isn’t about “sides”, she couldn’t call herself pro-life (as in “in favour of criminalizing abortion”) because she had read that legal abortion did not increase abortion rates.
      You can look at the study and decide for yourself if you find it compelling, and argue your point. If you reject it, you can explain why, if you accept it, you are pro-choice (unless you have some sort of messed up “criminalize abortion to increase abortion rate” position, which I will assume you do not).
      It’s not about sides, it’s just about accepting or rejecting a claim. People may have different reasons why they accept or reject that claim, but if a person believes legal abortion reduces abortion rates, that person is called pro-choice. Same as with atheism. If you do not accept God propositions, you are an atheist. There’s no “I’m half a theist and half an atheist”.
      In this case, the only person seeing pre-packaged “sides” seems to be you, not the writer.

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  • Alice

    Great article. The comments are also interesting and indicative of a debate that is so tired and ridiculous, and uncuriously led by lots of swinging dicks. I feel terrible for Libby Anne that she grew up in a radical pro life household. All this endless internal dialogue and soul searching to come to what is such an obvious conclusion. FYI Jesus is pro-choice. Clowns.

  • Sarah

    The pro-life/pro-choice issue is so massively complicated and often gets boiled down to defensive, oversimplified arguments. This article did an amazing job of looking at not just what we think about this topic, but WHY: what institutions have influenced our thoughts, and what are their motives? This should really be what we are all asking ourselves.

    You did an incredible job of taking both sides into account, relying on facts, and thinking up complex solutions that match the complexities of this issue. There has to be a division between God and human corruption for the sake of power, and I think you did an excellent job of articulating this in an honest but non-threatening way.

    Hurrah for educated opinions! Hurrah for good research and critical thinking! Keep up the good work!

  • Pingback: Why No 5K to Save the Zygotes? | 20 Times Around the Block

  • Skarlet

    “The reality is that so-called pro-life movement is not about saving babies. It’s about regulating sex.”

    I read your article, and I understand how you came to this conclusion, but the conclusion itself is entirely wrong. The point of banning abortion is the same as banning murder or rape: those things still happen a lot, but the law about it clarifies that it is believed to be wrong; it clarifies that this culture does not condone rape, and does not see some types of people as “okay to murder.” The point of banning abortion would not be to make more abortions happen, or to make abortion dangerous (it already is dangerous for the woman, by the way, hardly a day goes by that I don’t see an article about a new case of a woman being injured through “safe and legal” abortion techniques) – the point of banning abortion would to say that the society does not think that murdering babies is any more moral than murdering a full grown human.

    “…leaving an exemption for those who become pregnant from rape.” Most don’t believe in the rape exception. I mean, I myself know an 8-year-old boy who was the product of a rape. I don’t think that makes it okay to kill the boy. He’s a sweetheart.

    “They would be raising money for research on why half of all zygotes fail to implant and working to prevent miscarriages.” But you see, there is a difference between trying to prevent all natural deaths (including death by old age) and trying to say that intentional killing should be outlawed. Natural deaths are natural, and physicians work on ways to prevent death by anything from gun shot to miscarriage to cancer to old age, and everything else inbetween. That’s their job, and everyone supports them. ProLifers, on the other hand, are not primarily doctors trying to prevent natural deaths (though they support that), but are primarily trying to take a stand against intentional killings.

    I mean, back in the days of the Nazis, you could tell a German, “Why bother hiding Jews? Your time is better spent working on a cure for cancer! You need to prevent THOSE deaths.” And they could rightfully say, “the doctors are working on finding a cure for cancer, but in the meantime, I can’t just let the Nazis kill these Jews here. We need to protect them.” That’s what the ProLifers stand for: stopping the unjustified taking of a innocent life. And yes, all scientists agree that babies in the womb are A-Human and B-Alive. They have the right not to be murdered as much as any human does.

    “It’s about controlling women.” Well sure. Laws against theft also “control” men and women, to try to prevent them from harming each other. If controlling people is always wrong, we should make everything legal and let people make their own choices about who to rob, and who to hurt.

    • phantomreader42

      Skarlet, your lies have all been debunked, months ago. Regurgitating fetus-fetishist propaganda on a months-old thread won’t magically make your sick death cult’s lies true. Your cult stands for denying the rights and humanity of women, nothing more. You don’t really think of fetuses as human, except in the sense of human shields you can hide behind when you get called on your foul agenda of rape, torture, and child abuse.

    • phantomreader42

      Here, Skarlet, try this link. It shows how your cult reacts to any suggestion of helping living women or born children: by recoiling in horror.

      http://www.patheos.com/blogs/lovejoyfeminism/2013/03/a-difference-in-perspective.html

  • Tamar H.

    I have a lot of sympathy with your feelings. I also think that the pro-life movement’s opposition to greater birth control access and failure to promote policies that would make motherhood more affordable for women in crisis rightly discredit it among many people, including those who truly wish to see fewer abortions.
    However, I have a few problems with your rationale. First, I’ve seen the “Abortion still happens at the same or higher rates in countries where it’s illegal–it’s just unsafe” argument before, and I really think that’s comparing apples and oranges. Of course abortion still happens in developing countries that prohibit it–like in Sub-Saharan Africa and Latin America. The actual ability of the government to enforce law in those countries is sporadic at best. Of course abortions in those countries end in death or injury to the woman more frequently. There has always been a shortage of trained medical personnel and supplies in those countries and legalizing abortion alone isn’t going to change that.
    On the other hand, there are countries that have established rule of law which prohibit or severely restrict access to abortion to certain cases (e.g. the woman’s life is at risk.) Generally these countries have lower abortion rates than countries with broad legalization on abortions–at least within their own borders. Examples include the Republic of Ireland and several Middle Eastern countries. And realistically, even in countries that offer abortion on demand (yes, including the U.S.) there are many cases of women suffering severe injury and even dying from abortions—much more than pro-choicers would like us to believe.
    Secondly, you cite this article to establish that the weight of scientific evidence suggests the birth control pill does not prevent implantation. When most people refer to “the birth control pill” they mean the combined oral contraceptive. But the article is actually about the “Plan B” pill (emergency contraceptive)—which, although made using similar hormones is intended to be taken in a very different manner. (A one-time use after sex, not daily use prior to sex). The article actually says that “daily birth control pills” are more likely to cause the zygote to slip through than Plan B because taking the hormones consistently over time is more likely to affect the endometrial lining than just a one-time dose.
    I was also kind of confused by the change from “6-16% of zygotes slip through without birth control, depending on whose statistics you use” to “50% of all zygotes – 50% of all fertilized eggs – die before pregnancy even begins.” Where did that last statistic come from?
    In principle, I agree that people who claim to want to prevent abortion should be in favor of greater access to birth control and better safety nets for women who face unplanned pregnancy. I still think that legally prohibiting abortion can have benefits and is a worthy, though somewhat unrealistic, goal. And counseling men and women to refrain from having sex until they’re in a position to potentially have children is also a worthy goal.

    • Nea

      I’ll leave someone else to correct your statistics and focus on this: counseling men and women to refrain from having sex until they’re in a position to potentially have children is also a worthy goal.

      No. No it isn’t. It’s none of your business why other people have sex. It’s none of your business to monitor fertility. It’s none of your business how people define if they are ready for children. None. Of. Your. Business.

      Counsel men and women to *mind their own business!* THAT is a worthy goal!

    • j

      “counseling men and women to refrain from having sex until they’re in a position to potentially have children is also a worthy goal”. I don’t think so. That’s really unrealistic and intrusive. Annoying the snot of out of people would be the main outcome of such counseling. We already know from longitudinal studies of abstinence-only counseling of minors that counseling yields increased rates of pregnancy (presumably because it demonizes contraception). Even if sex could somehow be limited to married people, a sizable fraction of younger newly married folks aren’t, in their own opinion, in a good position to have children. It would be ridiculous, and absolutely not a worthy goal, for someone to counsel such folks to refrain from sex. And, who would the counselor be? You? An employee of a nanny state? An employer? A university official if the married folks are students? The Dept. of Defense if they are military service members? Parents of the married adults? Someone with self-perceived religious or moral authority? If so, why would you think someone could impose her/his religious beliefs on another? Ughh… there is just so much wrong with your reasoning from a moral perspective, a human dignity perspective, and an empirical “decreasing the number of abortions” perspective. On the last point, please re-read the article reflectively.

    • Anat

      To whom can the legal prohibition of abortion provide benefit? Not to women who seek abortion. Maybe to busybodies like you who think they have a right to meddle in other people’s bodies. People who prohibit abortions kill women. ‘Life of the mother’ clauses are fig leaves. When a woman has to prove her life is in danger the vagina-monitors start bargaining that the danger isn’t imminent enough. By the time the woman is endangered enough to their taste it is too late and the woman dies.

      FYI, childbirth has a greater risk of death than abortion when the latter is performed according to proper medical standards.

    • Cynthia

      http://www.npr.org/blogs/health/2013/02/22/172595689/morning-after-pills-dont-cause-abortion-studies-say

      Check this out. Morning after pills prevent ovulation, just like daily birth control.

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  • SRoot61

    Pro-Lifers who know their facts aren’t actually saying the pill kills (with the exception of the <2% of cases when it does because the zygote can't implant correctly). The issue with the pill is that it creates sterile sex when an ovum is not released for months at a time. Studies show that sterile sex often results in a deterioration of sex as a way to love the person you're with, and is replaced by feelings of wanting sex as purely a selfish desire – to get a high while using the other person's body very conveniently to do so. Using a person is always a degradation of their dignity. Sterile sex includes sex with contraceptives (such as the pill), sex between same-gendered couples, and any form of masturbation. This is why the Catholic Church has always taught that contraceptives are not good for us, because the Church is believed to be inspired by God, a God who wants only the "best" for people – "best" meaning what will make the human person happiest and most fulfilled of their deepest, truest desires in the long run of their life, and not for the pleasure in the short term. Continual short term gratification is realistically unsustainable; delayed gratification brings much greater joy and achievement in the long run, and this is often the philosophy of the Catholic Church, and much of why today's world does not agree with the tough-loving ways of the Church. Please feel free to email any legitimate questions. sroot61@gmail.com

    • http://gamesgirlsgods.blogspot.com/ M

      There are absolutely zero studies showing this. Zip. None. Nada. If sex to you is only using someone else to get a high, instead of doing mutually pleasing things to each other, I feel quite bad for you and your partner(s). I’ve had sex with people I love, I’ve had sex with people who I was friends-with-benefits with, and neither was more or less selfish than the other. They just scratched different itches. I didn’t wind up with the guy who was, um, technically best but I don’t regret anything I learned from him either :D .

    • Nea

      Studies show that

      Please cite sources, including use of blind trials.

    • me.all

      what about those married couples who are sterile by God’s hand? What about men who choose to have a vasectomy to save their wives life after being told that the next birth will kill her? What about couples that cant have children because post menopause? What about ABRAM and SARAI in the Bible? do they all fall into that category? Your theory has some holes.

      • SRoot61

        The idea is that humans shouldn’t be making their relationship sterile, but if God so makes it or allows it to be that way, then the couple is still encouraged to love each other with totality and true selflessness (making a gift of one’s self, as wholesome and holy and admirable as one can be, so that the gift to their spouse can be complete). The difference then is that the couple is no longer conflicted with bipolar intentions. That is, wanting to be a total gift to the other, and withholding their fertility from their spouse. The true love of marriage means being open to whatever fruits of their love may come. A child is a blessing – the fruit of a union that is so true and full of love that it creates a whole new creation, that 9 months later you give a name to and get to care for and be in love with for the rest of your lives.
        So for all of the instances except the vasectomy, humans did not seek out that infertility, and so the couple is still free to love each other entirely.
        The issue of a vasectomy in this instance, where another’s life is predicted to be in danger, is where systems like Natural Family Planning become a great option instead of getting the vasectomy done. NFP is 99% effective in avoiding pregnancy if it does not seem in the best interest for the family to have another child, while at the same time, they still leave it open to God’s will, Who may wish that the couple have more children – and Who will bring great good out of the situation, no matter what. Additionally, even when doctors give expectations that someone has x days to live, there are many cases where the amount of time the person lives is, in fact, different from the “x.” This is in no way to insult doctors, but simply to show that human minds, as intelligent as the sciences have facilitated us to be, are never going to be 100% accurate. So when a doctor says, “The next pregnancy will kill her,” we can at least take some hope in the idea that this may not be 100% the way the situation plays out, but in fact that an all-loving God has it in His hands, even if the outcome is not what we would call good.

      • Surroundedbyfanatics

        And this viewpoint is another reason that I have left the Catholic Church and am a happy practising Methodist.

    • Michael Busch

      >>Studies show that sterile sex often results in a deterioration of sex as a way to love the person you’re with, and is replaced by feelings of wanting sex as purely a selfish desire – to get a high while using the other person’s body very conveniently to do so. Using a person is always a degradation of their dignity. Sterile sex includes sex with contraceptives (such as the pill), sex between same-gendered couples, and any form of masturbation. <<
      _
      You have not provided any evidence to support your assertions.
      _
      You are also _wrong_. It happens that sexual satisfaction for _both_ partners is in general higher for opposite-sex couples when using contraceptives; although there is some variation between different contraceptive methods. I give a reference: http://paa2008.princeton.edu/papers/81018 .
      _
      Nor is there anything wrong with masturbation or homosexuality or bisexuality.

  • Kellen

    You have no idea how liberated this makes me feel. How long I’ve struggled with knowing that there were terrible, distressing, destructive inconsistencies with the Pro-Life movement’s policies and their rhetoric. Knowing, somehow, knowing for YEARS, that powerful lobbyists were twisting my beliefs into tools for their political agenda. Yet unable to articulate anything that I felt. I’ve waited so long for what my heart was telling me to make sense. Thank you. Thank you for everything in this article. For the confirmation of much I suspected, for the facts that I never even guessed at, and for the perspective I couldn’t reach on my own. Thank you so much.

  • Jen

    I was raised by pro life protestors. My father was a catholic lawyer and my mother a catholic nurse. I had an unplanned pregnancy at 18 and at first wanted an abortion but then was told I would be expelled from the family. I not only suffered the fact my father was already dead and I had no income, but my mother didn’t either and had four kids to raise. On top of that I was black listed from employment after I did eventually finish college/university as I was raised praying outside abortionists’homes etc and made a pro life speech at uni. After living the reality, being single for ten years, no money, debt and a child who misses out on the basics I think your post is not only informative but holy in a strange way. I love my son and don’t regret him bit oh man do I wish I was given birth control lessons with meaning, not just “take this”but why I should take it. God bless x

  • http://www.autocreditexpress1.com/lk3jlkj3 Ervin Minichiello

    I really like getting the letters, but please really don’t go telling folks they are going to get about one particular a week. I’ve been lucky to have one a month. You need to do a little better than that….or quit the pinocchio stories at the extremely least. If 1 a month is what it is, then that’s what it is.

  • ricky

    My Name is RICKY.I will love to share my testimony to all the people in the forum cos i never thought i will have my girlfriend back and she means so much to me..The girl i want to get marry to left me 4 weeks to our weeding for another man..,When i called her she never picked my calls,She deleted me on her facebook and she changed her facebook status from married to Single…when i went to her to her place of work she told her boss she never want to see me..i lost my job as a result of this cos i cant get myself anymore,my life was upside down and everything did not go smooth with my life…I tried all i could do to have her back to all did not work out until i met a Man when i Travel to Africa to execute some business have been developing some years back..I told him my problem and all have passed through in getting her back and how i lost my job…he told me he gonna help me…i don’t believe that in the first place.but he swore he will help me out and he told me the reason why my girlfriend left me and also told me some hidden secrets.i was amazed when i heard that from him..he said he will cast a spell for me and i will see the results in the next couple of days..then i travel back to US the following day and i called him when i got home and he said he’s busy casting those spells and he has bought all the materials needed for the spells,he said am gonna see positive results in the next 2 days that is Thursday…My girlfriend called me at exactly 12:35pm on Thursday and apologies for all she had done ..she said,she never knew what she’s doing and her sudden behavior was not intentional and she promised not to do that again.it was like am dreaming when i heard that from her and when we ended the call,i called the man and told him my wife called and he said i haven’t seen anything yet… he said i will also get my job back in 3 days time..and when its Sunday,they called me at my place of work that i should resume working on Monday and they gonna compensate me for the time limit have spent at home without working..My life is back into shape,i have my girlfriend back and we are happily married now with kids and i have my job back too.This man is really powerful..if we have up to 20 people like him in the world,the world would have been a better place..he has also helped many of my friends to solve many problems and they are all happy now..Am posting this to the forum for anybody that is interested in meeting the man for help.you can mail him to OGBONISPELLCASTER @ GMAIL.CO M i cant give out his number cos he told me he don’t want to be disturbed by many people across the world..he said his email is okay and he’ will replied to any emails asap..hope he helped u out too..good luck ogbonispellcaster @ gmail.co m

  • Molly

    I don’t know if anyone will see this or not or quite honestly care to read it at this point, but I am in love with this article.
    For a long time I’ve considered myself “pro-life” and the argument you’ve provided here is just amazing. It really all is true and couldn’t have been better put together. I don’t exactly view a one week old fertilized egg as a human being but once the heart starts beating and everything else, I do consider it a life still, but that’s just my personal feelings.
    However, I’ve never been against birth control and I was aware of pro-lifers being against birth control, I just ignored it when I shouldn’t have. I’m not sure if I can quite call myself pro-choice yet, but if I don’t want people to have abortions, then easy birth control availability is the best possible solution. Plus, all those programs you just stated that help women who have children who can’t afford it sound amazing honestly and I’m not sure why people would be so against that.
    I just wanted to say this article is amazing and it really changed my perspective on calling myself a pro-lifer. I don’t think I can call myself that anymore seeing how contradicting they are.

    • SRoot61

      What about Natural Family Planning as a form of safe and 98% effective birth control?
      Just reading some studies recently about a lot of the other forms of birth control that show a lot of negative effects for women, and this one, though comprehensive, really doesn’t get into a lot of the psychological/depression often associated with most forms of birth control.
      http://www.virginiahopkinstestkits.com/everywomanbc.html

      • Christine

        Non-hormonal methods of birth control don’t have issues with depression.

      • Michael Busch

        It is misleading to say that fertility-awareness based birth control is “98% effective”. What matters is the failure rate.
        _
        The appropriate statement is that given a group of 10,000 women using fertility-awareness (requiring careful daily monitoring of body temperature and cervical mucus), ~200 will become pregnant every year. Other methods branded as “natural family planning” have much higher failure rates.
        _
        And for comparison, of a group of 10,000 women using copper-based IUDs only ~80 will become pregnant every year. For progestogen IUDs, ~20. For subdermal impants, ~5.
        _
        As noted, the copper-based IUDs are non-hormonal. So is are permanent surgical methods (essure, tubal ligation). The hormonal methods of contraception do have side effects, particularly irregular periods. There were concerns that high doses of estrogen and progestin in the early versions of oral hormonal contraceptives could increase the severity of depression, although they did not increase the incidence. Low-dose hormonal contraceptives do not have this problem.
        _
        There are side effects associated with all means of contraception, but what is missing from the article you linked is the counter-point: the health risks associated with any pregnancy, planned or unplanned. By avoiding those risks, contraceptives improve health overall (i.e. if 1 woman out of that cohort of 10,000 has a serious side effect, but 180 avoid an unwanted pregnancy, that’s a good trade to make).
        _
        I give references:
        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_birth_control_methods
        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combined_oral_contraceptive_pill#Major_side_effects

      • http://www.facebook.com/myrlyn.biffle Myrlyn Biffle

        Pregnancy does more harm to your hormones than birth control does. Post-partum depression, anyone?

      • Niemand

        What about it? Even assuming that the 98% figure is correct, that means that about 2 women per 100 using this method consistently will become pregnant each year. If the average woman’s fertile lifetime is about 35-40 years, she has a decent chance of getting pregnant at least once using this method consistently and properly. Then she should…what? Die if she is in poor condition for pregnancy? Have a child that she doesn’t want and ruin both lives? Have an abortion?

  • AbigailT

    I applaud this article. You did a very great job n your research as well as becoming a more educated, compassionate person.

    To all of you self-righteous so called “pro-lifers” trying to deny the LOGIC and TRUTH in this article–SHAME on you! You guys just can’t handle reasoning do you? Take your fetish fetish cult some where else. Your pious excuses are completely out-of-touch in America.

  • Bullshitopia

    Yeah.

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  • Teresa

    They can abortions as legal or not and it still won’t keep women from having them. My goodness abortion has been around since I can remember old folks when I was little talking ( I am 56 now ).
    I use to hear them talk about women having them due to not wanting more babies – the men just did not want to keep their peckers in their pants. Some had them due to the fact that they just could not afford them and or to feed the ones that they already had. I mean that I had heard it said about this during the times of my great – grand parents , and to be sure it went on before that. The main reason they started to make abortions legal was due to the conditions of the places and people that women would have to go to in order to get an abortion. If a woman wants an abortion she will find a way to get it. That same woman will have to live with that choice and believe me she will think about it for the rest of her life, and she will have to answer for it.
    I once thought that it was not a human being either – till I was 8 weeks pregnant with my son and I saw him on the ultra sound monitor when I had to go to the hospital for spotting. That was a person – I saw his hands, feet , body, head and face – yes human. And believe me when I tell you this I had to have 2 abortions due to medical reasons and if I had know then what I know now — seen how those little babies look after ward and seen how they would be torn apart one limb at the time I would not have never signed the papers.Yes, it was my fault I signed the damned papers.If more people could see that and see that even the ones that they do with the salt – which just burns the hell out of them it would make a difference. And partial birth abortion – I don’t know who the sick puppy was that came up with that one — all should see what really happens….. Education and knowlege is the way to cut down on abortions …. the bickering back and forth sure does not work.

    Been there , done that , bought the Tee Shirt –
    Teresa

    • Caravelle

      @Tess :

      And partial birth abortion – I don’t know who the sick puppy was that came up with that one

      A sick puppy who wanted a safer way to do late-term abortions that allowed grieving women (and if it’s late-term they’ll be grieving) to have a non-dismembered body to hold and bury ?

      Hands, feet, body, head and face do not a person make. It may look that way to you and you clearly have a strong emotional reaction (which is I share and is absolutely understandable given our human ability to anthropomorphize and feel empathy for anything; of course we’ll feel very strongly about a proto-baby, regardless of whether it’s a person or not), but it’s not a basis for policy.

      • Caravelle

        I mean Teresa, not Tess.

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  • William J. Green

    It is ABSOLUTELY Insane & Inane to think for a minute that if abortion was made ILLEGAL AGAIN and anyone convicted of Filicide was incarcerated for similar crimes that 1,211,000 abortions would continue to occur annually. Balderdash. Incarceration is a real if imperfect deterrent. The number of abortions would plunge by more than 90% once a couple women were featured on the news entering prison for 1st degree Filicide. We don’t resist punishing murderers because not everyone is deterred. No. We incarcerate them so they can’t commit more murder in the public square while behind bars, to serve as a deterrent to others considering murder, and to ensure they pay their debt to society!

    • Christine

      Given the ineffectiveness of incarceration as a deterrent measure with other crimes, can you provide links to the studies which support your assertion that this would not be the case with abortion?

      • http://gamesgirlsgods.blogspot.com/ M

        Especially considering the fact that WHO studies suggest the abortion rate in countries with legal abortion is actually lower than in countries with illegal abortion. Apparently criminalizing abortion actually makes women get more of them!

        Actually, it’s that places that criminalize abortion make women’s lives harder in many other ways too, leading to more unwanted pregnancies and more women unwilling/unable to bring additional children into shitty situations. But figuring that out requires understanding context and nuance, so I have little hope for William J. Green.

      • Christine

        M, you had me worried there. I was convinced that you’d managed to get causation and correlation mixed up and was very disappointed in you until I pried the toddler off my lap and managed to finish reading your comment.

    • Michael Busch

      You are wrong.

      In reality, as documented in the sources Libby Anne gives above and many others that Google will provide to you, banning abortion _does not_ decrease abortion rates. What it does do is make women obtain abortions in secret, very often in unsafe conditions. The number of abortions is the same. What changes is that a large number of women die.

    • Mogg

      I’m puzzled – what kind of debt to society is there for an abortion? If anything, in many situations an abortion is *reducing* the burden on society. Bringing a child into a situation where it can’t be cared for properly and raised to be a functioning, contributing member of society, or removing the mother from education or the workforce when she is unprepared and therefore likely to require long-term assistance, is a huge burden on society.

    • http://www.facebook.com/david.c.dickson.1 David Carlton Dickson

      Abortion is illegal throughout much of Latin America. The abortion rate there is significantly higher than in the United States, where it is legal.

    • Surroundedbyfanatics

      Your argument is nonsense. Once again a man is insisting his will and beliefs be imposed on all of the women in this country. Control your own body and by all means, use a condom. Do not tell the rest of us that we must do and believe as you do. God is the one who may judge, not you.

    • http://www.facebook.com/myrlyn.biffle Myrlyn Biffle

      So, silly question, but what about the flushed zygotes and their “mothers” that miscarried? They’re called natural abortions, even. Do we punish them, too?

      • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=21708336 Joe

        The body did it naturally because something was wrong with the pregnancy. Not chemically altered to destroy and end any possible or healthy pregnancy. There is a major fundamental difference.

  • Maddie

    This article has obviously sparked up a lively debate, and for all the pro-life people (even the ones who have slammed the article or disagreed) I congratualte you on reading something which might have material which you knew you might be opposed to. It shows an open mind. The article itself is very well written and I congratulate Libby Anne on including facts and other references. Often the pro-life/pro-choice debate boils down to what people believe- but that is far too over simplified for such a complex issue. A great blog!

  • Tamara Levin
    • Niemand

      Um…you’re posting on the blog of a woman who was raised fundamentalist and is now and atheist and arguing that religion is genetic? Also, at least in the US, the number of people of no particular religion is growing source. It’s religion that looks to be dying, not atheism.

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  • http://WoodcuttersRevival.com Jerry Slauter

    Are any abortionists even somewhat glad that your mother was not an abortionist wile she was carrying you?
    Any way you define the situation, a baby is a human, born or unborn. Begin the argument from that premise.

    • tsara

      I am pro-choice, which means that you would probably call me an ‘abortionist’. My mother is also pro-choice, which means that you would probably consider her to be an abortionist as well. The thing is, though, that her position on abortion is the same now as it was when she became pregnant with me.
      I was an accident, and when I was conceived, my mother was a poor, unmarried student just beginning her career. But guess what? My father was (and is) a decent human being who felt prepared to become a father but was not overly invested in the possibility, and both my parents had decent support systems, and laws where and when they were living were such that neither they nor I would suffer from the circumstances (i.e., they went on welfare). The result was that my mother felt that she had a free and uncoerced choice about whether or not to have a child; she decided to keep me. I am quite thankful for this, but I can guarantee you that if my mother had been — or even felt — forced to keep me, my life would have been very different (and not in a good way). One of my best friends has a mother who loves to tell her exactly how much her life was ruined because she didn’t terminate the pregnancy when she had the chance. I could not live like that; in that situation, I would not be thankful at all that my mother did not abort me.

      And you’re wrong: an unborn baby is not unequivocally *a* human, even if it is unequivocally human. An unborn baby is not even (technically) a baby, though I won’t correct people who are expecting children on that point because, to them (i.e., emotionally), it is a baby. An unwanted fetus, though, is harming the person carrying it. Any reasonable legal system will allow me to remove a thing from my body if I do not want it in my body; it isn’t my problem if the fetus can’t survive being detached from my body. Or do you advise me to carefully consider the safety of someone raping me before I try to fight back?

    • Anat

      I am pro-abortion. The only thing that bothers me about my mother’s situation when she was pregnant with what became me is that where and when that took place safe and legal abortion was not available to her, so regardless of her views, she was stuck with carrying full term and giving birth. As things happened, the pregnancy was wanted (though not planned) so she didn’t face the dilemma, and I am happy for her for that. My aunt wasn’t as fortunate, she ended up carrying an unwanted pregnancy to term and ended up very ambivalent about my cousin for many years. Now that he is an adult and has left home many years ago they worked things out, but his childhood and youth were a miserable time for both of them.

    • Niemand

      Are any abortionists even somewhat glad that your mother was not an abortionist wile she was carrying you?

      Given that my mother’s not a doctor, much less an OB, yes, I’m glad she didn’t set up an illegal and probably dangerous practice as an abortion provider while she was pregnant with me or at any other time.

      OTOH, she was pro-choice since long before I was born and I’m glad of that too. I’d hate to think that she went through all she went through being pregnant with me against her will.

    • http://equalsuf.wordpress.com Jayn

      I’m glad my mother had a choice. I’m glad that she had birth control available to her to prevent any unwanted pregnancies, and that if any had occurred that abortion was an option for her. And as much as I wanted a sibling as a child, I’m glad to know that my parents weren’t forced into having more children than they wanted.

      Mostly, I’m just glad to know that my parents didn’t have to have me and they still chose to. And when my child is born, I’ll be glad to be able to tell hir the same thing.

    • Conuly

      No. Actually, my life has been a vale of tears and sadness. I had almost managed to put that out of my mind until I read your comment. Thanks a lot!

    • Michael Busch

      Jerry,

      You appear to not understand what the word “abortionist” means – the dictionary lists it as “one who induces abortions”. And that ideally only applies to the medical staff of properly supervised and licensed health care providers (it happens that my mother could have been on the nursing staff of such a provider, but she went into geriatrics rather than OB/GYN).

      “Any way you define the situation, a baby is a human, born or unborn. Begin the argument from that premise.”

      Abortion _does not deal with babies_. It deals with embryos and in a small fraction of cases with fetuses (and those are usually medically necessary or because the fetus has serious genetic or developmental abnormalities). And even if you would count an embryo as a human – which makes little sense since most embryos spontaneously abort anyway – giving anyone other than the woman concerned decision powers over if she should terminate her pregnancy or not is equivalent to giving someone else decision powers over you repeatedly donating bone marrow.

    • FlSam

      That’s such a stupid argument. If I had been aborted I would never have existed, and therefore would NOT CARE. You people really need to get over yourselves and realize the world does not revolve around YOU.

    • Mogg

      My mother suffered due to being the unwanted child of a mother who already had several young children to cope with. I wouldn’t wish the long-term effects of that on anyone, mother or child – effects on mental health which now manifest in the grandchildren, myself included. Certainly my grandmother’s suffering would have been reduced, and my mother’s non-existent had my grandmother had the option and inclination to have an abortion.

  • Emma

    It would be lovely if some of the pro-life supporters were forced into the situation that God placed me.
    I am a happily married woman. I have an inverted uterus and have experienced three miscarriages due to this condition. As I am of a small stature and body type, four sets of doctors have concluded that if I experience another miscarriage, it is a 90% probability that I will die. My last miscarriage was so bad that I nearly bled to death.
    The placement of my uterus and my family history of a clotting disorder, I have not found a doctor who is willing to perform a hysterectomy, citing that I will have many complications and potentially die from the procedure.
    My husband has undergone the vasectomy procedure twice in an attempt to eliminate the risk of pregnancy for me. It has failed both times and doctors are concerned for complications such as a loss of the ability to have sex if they perform it a third time.
    If I did not have access to birth control, I would not be able to continue my marriage or to be able to adopt children. If I were to become pregnant again, I would have to undergo an abortion to save my life.
    If I am to listen to God, what do you think he would say? In what good cause would the ending of my life be justified?

    • Andrea

      I am part of the pro-life supporters and I can tell you that every other member I have met has said if it endangers the mothers life and no other options are available abortion/contraception is fine.
      Then again, I’m sure there are many pro-life supporters who are very closed minded and would still give you hard time, so I thought I’d wrute a reply to say not everyone is like that.

      • Anat

        The problem with ‘if it endangers the mother’ line is the question of how much danger is enough? When Savita was first hospitalized she had not yet developed the infection that killed her. But her condition was such that chances of eventually developing such an infection were very high. And once sepsis sets in it might be too late for abortion to do the good of saving the woman’s life. So while many of those opposed to abortion agree that the woman’s life takes precedence, if in order to have such a clause apply the woman has to be in clear danger rather than in high risk it doesn’t actually help.

      • accuracyplease

        Pregnancy is a much bigger threat to the life of the mother than abortion. Also, pregnancy is a much bigger threat to the health of the mother than abortion. I’m not a fan of abortion but I am a fan of truth. The point that the writer above misses is that abortion is only one of the things the right wing lies about. If you chose to listen to lies, you chose to follow Satan. You may yell, “Jesus” or “Christ” when you pray but your are praying to the prince of lies. Newscorp and the rest of the right-wing media are servants of the prince of lies.

      • Mike

        Make sure your statistics are comparing apples with apples. If, for example, you take women with no reproductive health problems, abortion is a far greater health threat than pregnancy.

      • http://gamesgirlsgods.blogspot.com/ Feminerd

        You are incorrect.

        The mortality rate for safe abortions in the US is 0.6/100,000.
        http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22270271

        The mortality rate for all pregnancies in the US is somewhere between 12 and 15/100,000.
        http://www.arhp.org/publications-and-resources/contraception-journal/march-2011

        Considering that the most common causes of death are hemorrhage, infection, or embolism, all of which are unpredictable and can occur in low-risk pregnancies (they’re only low risk until they’re not!), I find it highly unlikely that safe, legal abortion is actually less safe than pregnancy.

      • Niemand

        Tell it to Mr. Halappanavar. Tell it to Beatriz. Tell it to the woman who nearly died because the Catholic hospital she was in considered denying her an abortion to save her life. Tell it to the people who made the sane choice and were fired or excommunicated because of it. Tell it to the people in Brazil in the same situation.

    • puzzled_one

      Just get your husband to wear a condom, for crying out loud. No fertization, no embryo destruction.

      If you’re terrified it could break, have him wear two.

      If you’re still terrified, abstain. It isn’t life ending.

      • Anat

        Two condoms? I guess you don’t actually know much about them. Wearing two increases the chance of breakage.

        Why is abstinence in marriage better than marriage with the use of contraception for someone in Emma’s situation – where neither pregnancy nor hysterectomy are safe?

      • puzzled_one

        Thank you for he correction (and you’re right, I don’t)

        What I should have suggested was ‘extra strength condoms’, as described here:

        http://www.health.arizona.edu/health_topics/sexual_health/usingtwocondoms.htm

        I have no problems with contraception which exclusively affects either the man’s, or the woman’s, body parts (e.g. condoms, spermicide) . However, contraception, like the pill, that may end up killing a a fertlised egg, is wrong (besides being harmful to the mother’s health).

        My reasoning: lets work backward from a delivery…. infant .. fetus… embryo… fertilised egg…. then the sperm and the unfertilized egg.

        At which point is the child NOT an individual human being with his OWN DNA? (i.e. At which point does this child become exclusively the mother’s, or exclusively the father’s, body part?)

        The demarkation is at the fertilization of the egg.

      • Anat

        The DNA argument is a red herring. Identical twins do not have their own DNA. In every person there are cells with different DNA from others – some as part of the body’s developmental plan (lymphocytes rearrange the genes for immune receptors), others as a result of random somatic mutations (some of these become cancers, others don’t cause problems). So is it OK to kill one of each pair of identical twins? Should we save the cancers? What about people who are chimeras, formed from 2 embryos that got naturally integrated in-utero – do they get two votes?

        If you answer the above three in the negative then it’s time to withdraw your argument from unique DNA. It was either made in ignorance or dishonestly used DNA as a substitute for something else, such as soul.

        It isn’t because of our DNA that we value human lives. For the destruction of a zygote, embryo or fetus to be wrong you need to make some other argument.

      • puzzled_one

        You seem to have misunderstood a trivial point, and hoped it unravelled what I said.

        It does not. Because in a sense, it is not my opinion, but someone greater than me.

        Regarding DNA, let me just quote something online:

        “DNA itself doesn’t do anything. DNA is like a library book that just sits there until someone (like a protein) comes along to read it and put that information to work, which creates a person. How the protein interprets the gene can vary, which is why identical twins may have different fingerprints, and even look differently. This is because their bodies are taking the same DNA and using it in different ways.”

        I don’t want to get into a discussion based on soul, God or spirit; as I don’t know if you believe or value these concepts. I would rather walk on common ground, if it exists.

        My core point is this: we value human life. It is worthy of protection. The zygote constitutes the first stage in a unique human being’s development. It is hence worthy of the same protection you and I are worthy of.

        If not, then at which point – working backward in time from now – did you or I become unworthy of the protection we now enjoy. More crucially… why?

        And when will we again become unworthy of this protection again? When we enter into a coma? Is it OK for Dr. Gosnell to come snip our spinal cords then?

        Let me also correct an initial misstatement of yours– an identical twin DOES have its own DNA – it’s DNA is it’s own. His twin has his own (very similar) copy.

        Finally, a chimera is really not more a problem than conjoined twins, or transplant recipients are. One individuals, or two; in the womb, their bodies are worthy of protection because they are no longer the mother’s body; or the father; but a new individual’s.

        Or does the ‘hideous deformity’ (as some say) of conjoined twins makes ‘humane’ to dismember them in the womb?

      • http://gamesgirlsgods.blogspot.com/ Feminerd

        AHA! It comes out. You believe women can’t control their bodies once they become host to a parasitic growth that might, if everything goes right, become a new person. After all, maybe-persons are clearly more important than women-persons.

        “One individuals, or two; in the womb, their bodies are worthy of protection — because these are no longer the mother’s body(emphasis added); or the father’s; but bodies of new individuals who cannot speak for themselves”

        A woman doesn’t lose her rights to herself when she becomes pregnant. Period. The End. We don’t force anyone to donate organs to another person, ever. Not even when the other person will die. We value bodily autonomy so highly that we don’t even take organs from dead people, preferring to respect their wishes in life over the lives of others. Isn’t it fascinating that the only time life trumps bodily autonomy is when men never have to deal with it? It’s not like they have to put their lives and livelihoods on the line to make babies, but they surely would if liver transplants were. It’s almost like women’s lives and bodies are considered less important than men’s.

      • Kennedy

        A woman has a choice to become pregnant and once she is then she is a mother and her duty is to care for and protect her child. Murdering it for nearly any reason is still murder. What happens if a person kills a pregnant woman? He or she is charged with two murders.

        Personally I cannot imagine how a mother could kill her own unborn child. I look at my three children and it brings tears to my eyes just the thought of losing any one of them or never having known them. I feel sorry for people like you who place your own petty desires over the life of a child. You are like a spoiled brat who breaks their toys because they can, only it is not toys you are destroying.

      • Alix

        A woman has a choice to become pregnant

        Not always. The choice is (or should be) in continuing the pregnancy.

        What happens if a person kills a pregnant woman? He or she is charged with two murders.

        Not always. Perhaps not even usually. But that also assumes that the pregnant woman wanted the child. Why on earth do potential kids matter more to you than the living women? Nice job erasing women from the picture – I guess anyone with a uterus is an agency-less baby incubator, not a real person like a microscopic clump of cells.

        Murdering it for nearly any reason is still murder.

        I have no problem with killing someone in self-defense. Someone inhabiting my body against my will, leeching off my bones and nutrients and traumatizing me? Killing that parasite would be killing in self-defense.

        You act like we should all be cringing at the word “murder.” Guess what? Some of us don’t see killing as an innate moral wrong.

        You wanted your kids. Great!

        I don’t want to be pregnant. Ever. And if I got pregnant? It would be against my will. Those cells would be out of there as fast as humanly possible.

        You telling me I must undergo the trauma of pregnancy for nine months, letting a parasite invade my body? That’s as offensive to me as someone telling you to abort all your children is to you.

        Not everybody agrees. Which is why there should be choice.

      • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=21708336 Joe

        Something of the same species isn’t a parasite. That is generally used in common definitions. There is a big difference then being pregnant and having head lice. One is a different species that invades your body. the other occurs because one of the organs of your body did its job. It cannot be. Please educate your self on what a parasite its and use correct information or refrain from that line of argument.

      • Alix

        I know the definition of a parasite. I chose that term for a reason. That you’d rather enslave me to something leeching off my body and committing traumatic damage says a great about you and how little you actually care about women.

        If you care so much about fetuses, implant some into your own body.

        Also, hello, self-defense. Bodily autonomy. In any other circumstance, if someone tried to use my body – say, steal an organ, force me to donate blood, a hundred other things far less traumatic – they can’t legally do so, and if they tried to forcibly take it from me I’d be morally and legally justified to shoot them dead.

        So why on earth can I not kill a (supposed) person who’s decided to set up shop inside me against my will?

      • tsara

        I just read your asexuality comment, and I have to say: are you me?

        The way I see it, if an unwanted fetus isn’t a person, there’s no reason I shouldn’t get rid of it, and if it is a person, it’s a rapist, and I’m therefore entitled to overlook its safety when removing it from my body.

      • Alix

        The way I see it, if an unwanted fetus isn’t a person, there’s no reason I shouldn’t get rid of it, and if it is a person, it’s a rapist, and I’m therefore entitled to overlook its safety when removing it from my body.

        Quoted for truth, because that can’t be repeated enough.

        It’s amazing how bodily autonomy and, well, all reasonable standards of self-defense go right out the window when we’re talking about women.

      • NoHnery Clay Compromiser

        What bitter nonsense.A child in a woman has a one in three chance of being killed by the mother without a gun. That is 3,000 times the murder rate by guns. Like it or not, the baby inside you IS a person. It is a person God is teaching and holding accountable if you are the slightest familiar with the Psalms. The whole pro-abortion movement is based upon laughable assumptions from the scientific dark ages. When women considering abortion actually SEE that they are carrying a CHILD and not a blob of tissue, they change their minds most of the time. The opposition by your side to simply showing a picture of the truth is proof that the truth is NOT in them. It is PRECISELY the way Satan works in people.

      • Rosie

        I don’t know. When I saw the ultrasound it looked more like a black pea than a person. Of course, I wasn’t exactly “considering” abortion; I was bound and determined to get unpregnant as soon as possible or die trying. I know where the poison hemlock grows. (And lest you seek to discredit me as just another slutty-slut…the pregnancy resulted from sex with my husband of 10 years. And he’s expressed some joy that I didn’t go with the suicide option over the abortion option.)

      • tsara

        What does that have to do with self-defense?

        (Also, The Silent Scream is not ‘truth’. Go pick up an embryology textbook.)

        (Also, Satan’s a pretty interesting fictional character, but I don’t think he ‘works in people’ any more than Odysseus, Sailor Moon, or The Queen of Hearts do.)

      • Anat

        It is completely besides the point whether a fetus is or isn’t a person. No person has the right to benefit from the use of another person’s body without the other person’s consent. That’s why we let people die while waiting for organ donations.

      • Alix

        1. Prove it’s a baby.

        2. Even if it is, I still have a right to defend myself against unwanted intruders.

        3. You say Satan like he’s a bad thing…

      • puzzled_one

        I’m not you tsara. But I have some experience with this topic.

        The unborn fetus is a person – just hold a wiggling, crying newborn in your arms and pretend it wasn’t a person just 5 minutes ago, when still inside the womb – rather, it was just an inanimate, tumour-like mass of flesh back then.

        You can’t!

        So by your logic, not wanting the baby makes it a rapist. The same logic makes you a rapist — I bet there were days your mum didn’t want you anymore inside of her. But she did not terminate you. So you would do well to extend the same kindness you were extended.

      • Alix

        I can. Easily. It wasn’t a baby before it emerged into the world and took its first breath. It wasn’t sapient.

        Don’t act like your opinions are some universal truth, k?

        The same logic makes you a rapist

        Uh, whah? No it doesn’t. I’m not invading a fetus’ body against its will – it would be invading mine. By your logic, if some man rapes me, I was raping him too.

        So you would do well to extend the same kindness you were extended.

        You can stop preaching at us anytime you’d like. We don’t need your condescension.

      • No Henry Clay Compromiser

        Actually, YOU need some condescension.YOU ARE GROTESQUELY evil and ignorant. A lethal combination. You really DO need preaching to – apparently you could come to understand the obvious by yourself.

      • tsara

        (this is sort of messy. my apologies.)
        Words usually mean things by general consensus and carry connotations because of how they’re used. Some of the words used here (in the pro-choice/pro-life debate) are exceptions to this: “person,” “murder,” “innocent,” “rapist,” also have very specific definitions assigned to them by an institution with a great deal of authority and power. This institution (i.e., the government) uses these words in its codification of what is and what is not a punishable offence (i.e., the law).

        When pro-life people use the words “person,” “murder,” and “innocent” in the context of trying to change laws, they should be keeping their use of those words within the limitations of the specific definitions the government assigns to the words.

        Instead, though, as your response to me neatly demonstrates, they are using less formal and more colloquial definitions; this allows the pro-life movement to use the emotions brought up by the words, while adding to that the borrowed authority and objectivity of the law — which is the only reason, by the way, to use the word “person” rather than “human being” or “murder” instead of “slaughter” — which, added together, makes for an emotion-based moral judgment that people feel absolutely no compunction about externally applying to other people (even when they don’t know the specifics of their circumstances) as though the judgment comes from some authority that can enforce it, rather than from the judgmental individual’s mind.

        1.”The unborn fetus is a person – just hold a wiggling, crying newborn in your arms and pretend it wasn’t a person just 5 minutes ago, when still inside the womb – rather, it was just an inanimate, tumour-like mass of flesh back then.

        You can’t!”I have some knowledge of human embryonics and fetal development, so I’d have some difficulty pretending that it looked any different five minutes ago, but I actually find it very easy to say — and to believe — that it wasn’t a person. Five minutes ago is a bit close (five minutes from position that could be partial-birth abortion to a stranger’s arms is a bit unbelievable), but a few hours? Easily.

        And why? Because personhood is defined by the law, first and foremost. Legally, a fetus is not a person; your argument fails on that front.

        Why else? Because, absent an external institution to apply alternate definitions and back them up with some authority, the individual gets to choose which labels apply to whatever goes on inside hir own body — particularly when the labels are emotion- or ‘value judgment’-heavy.

        If I am pregnant, I have an embryo or a fetus inside me. If the law does not define either of these as persons, my definition of “person” is the only one that matters for this fetus; if I decide that both the connotations and denotations apply? The fetus is a person. If I don’t? It isn’t.

        Emotional reasons for calling fetuses “persons” and abortion “murder” fail at being arguments; your argument is invalid on that front.

        2.”So by your logic, not wanting the baby makes it a rapist. The same logic makes you a rapist — I bet there were days your mum didn’t want you anymore inside of her. But she did not terminate you. So you would do well to extend the same kindness you were extended.”

        By my logic, an unwanted fetus is a rapist if and only if the pregnant person defines it as a person, the same way that the person attached to the body part or object that is inside of me despite my not wanting it there is a rapist, not the body part or object (simplified: If I don’t want a penis inside of me, the person attached to the penis inside of me is a rapist; the penis is not a rapist). A non-person is not a rapist, and a wanted fetus defined as a person is not a rapist. [see over here for my answer to your "your mom!" "argument": http://www.patheos.com/blogs/lovejoyfeminism/2012/10/how-i-lost-faith-in-the-pro-life-movement.html#comment-876011652. However, if my mother did feel that, while she was pregnant with me, I was a person she did not want inside of her? Then I'd take the label of "rapist," because, from her point of view, it would be true.

        Rapist is one of those words that is defined by the law, but is also used when it is less formally defined. The definition I am using is this: "A person who is or has been inside of another person when that other person does/did not want them there." (The legal definition varies; this is just the definition I would use to judge my own experiences.) By this definition, if a fetus is a person, an unwanted fetus is a rapist, no ifs, ands, or buts.

        I use the word "rapist" in this way specifically to counter the words "innocent" and "murder". "Rapist" (remember: not talking legal definitions here) is a label that carries a lot of emotion and a pretty heavy value judgment; "rape" carries connotations of an act carried out deliberately (implying volition, intent), and the act is generally agreed to be pretty terrible. "Rapist," therefore, is a label that carries very strong connotations of being a terrible person, neatly refuting the "innocence" of the fetus being called a baby. Further, remember this [Arizona]? People are generally okay with the idea that violence against someone committing or attempting to commit rape is self-defense, even it results in the death of the rapist (again, according to the casual definitions of the words, if not the legal). “Murder” is (legally and otherwise) a specific type of causing death, and one that has a high burden of proof (legally) and one that carries a lot of emotion (otherwise?).

        tl;dr: the pro-life movement, with no authority whatsoever, declares that all fetuses are persons regardless of what any particular pregnant person says. Wrong, but fine. They then extend this wrong, declaring all abortions to be murder (except maybe rape, incest, life of mother) again regardless of what any particular pregnant person says. This is not just wrong; it’s stupid, and inconsistent with reality for anyone who is less of a pacifist than Gandhi.

        Most pro-life people will agree with the statement “Aborting a fetus is always murder,” but I would be willing to bet everything I have that most pro-life people would laugh at the statement “Killing a human is always murder.”

        I use the word “rapist” to refer to unwanted fetuses to draw attention to the problems with the words pro-life people use and the things those words imply. This label is just as valid — if not more, because I’m actually consistent in my use of it — as the pro-life use of the words “murder” and “innocent”.

      • Anat

        Even if the fetus were a person it would not change the woman’s right to stop availing the person the use of her body for its survival. People are not required to donate organs against their wishes, even if it leads to the deaths of those in need of the organs. Even a person who agreed to donate a kidney, or just bone marrow, can change their mind – and they would not be required to go through. Why should a pregnant woman be treated any differently? Even if she chose to get pregnant, she has the right to stop being pregnant. It is her body, she gets to decide if anyone besides herself uses it.

      • Niemand

        Puzzled, the majority of abortions occur in the first 8 weeks of pregnancy. The embryo at that point is, in fact, an inanimate mass of flesh that looks more like a tumor than a baby. The vast majority of elective abortions occur before the 12th week (and more would occur in that time period but for “pro-life” obstacles that make abortions occur later). The fetus at that time doesn’t have major cortical activity yet. It might move a bit, but it looks more like a monster in a horror movie than a baby.

        The embryos and fetuses aborted in elective abortions don’t look like newborns. No, not even premies. Consider this picture of the products of conception after an abortion: http://www.thisismyabortion.com/ Does that look like a baby to you? It certainly doesn’t to me.

      • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=21708336 Joe

        If you know the definition of a parasite then you should use it correctly. The person that hypothetically forms in you didn’t decide anything, they formed and grew based on the actions of your organs and your actions. Newton’s third law of motion. For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. This reaction is a healthy and a natural reaction to sexual intercourse. If you choose to have sex, then the consequences of said action were implied to be acceptable. So, unless in the case of rape(which constitutes a very small portion of all abortions), it was not against your will. Your ad hominum attack isn’t appreciated nor warranted.

      • Alix

        When the only difference between a fetus and a parasite is that a fetus is the same species as me, it’s perfectly legitimate to draw an analogy. Apparently, any sort of figurative language is Right Out.

        Also, apparently you’ve missed all the places I’ve stated that any pregnancy for me would indeed be against my will. Or does that not matter?

        Wait – so you forced-birthers can come in here and insult us, call us stupid vile baby-killers, but pointing out that your positions would result in the enslavement of women is a totally unwarranted attack? Whatever, the point still stands.

      • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=21708336 Joe

        Your point doesn’t stand. Not based on a logical fallacy. Plus, Where have I attacked you? I’m sorry if you have been attacked by pro-lifers in the past but I’ve simply pointed out the logical fallacy of your statement. A different species is a BIG difference, every time new species is discovered biologists celebrate it, so your marginalizing of that fact is very telling. Your will matters to you so why you are even discussing this gives me pause to question your motives. However, those who do willfully have intercourse inherently accept any of the consequences of said actions and those actions have inherent consequences based on physics which I stated above. I came here to educate myself on why a professed pro-lifer would not only abandon the movement but then become pro abortion. I’m going to infer that you are of the liberal persuasion, if I’m wrong please correct me, and as such it education is generally deemed to be a good thing. One must know and understand both sides if one wants to make a truly informed decision. So much of either side is never truly discussed, especially when it comes to abortion and contraception.

      • Alix

        You’re rather clearly not actually listening to me.

        “Parasite” is a useful analogy. No, technically, a fetus fails to meet the definition by one point, but otherwise it fits, and the semantics of “parasite” communicate quite well the feelings of invasion, wrongness, and sheer trauma that would, for me, accompany a pregnancy. Again, it’s an analogy, not a request to alter the scientific definition of a fetus.

        Your will matters to you so why you are even discussing this gives me pause to question your motives.

        I have to admit that I am extremely confused by this statement. Yes, my will and whether or not I want to be pregnant matter to me. The will of any woman matters here, far more than the nonexistent will of the fetus does. Why would that lead you to question my motives?

      • Joe

        I am listening, and you did not use the terms of like or as. You did not pose it as an analogy hence my thread. It is a fairly large point or you and I might as well be dolphins or frogs. ;) The point of mentioning your will was your response to the hypothetical of you becoming pregnant. If your will would make it so you will never become pregnant then there is absolutely no point in your banter.

      • Alix

        Okay, I’m sorry, but my mother’s an English teacher and would kill me if I neglected to point this out: not all figurative language uses “like,” “as,” or other signal phrases. Metaphors don’t. Analogies often don’t. And I’m positive there are other kinds of figurative language that don’t – but I’m a historian, not an English teacher, so I don’t remember all the terms.

        Generally I find it works a lot better to try to see what people are saying by the use of a word, not quibbling over how the word doesn’t fit the precise dictionary definition. Few things do, really; dictionaries are always behind the times, and they rarely make fine semantic distinctions or record connotations anyway. The point I was making by using “parasite” was very clear. Arguing over the semantics of “parasite” is deliberate derailing.

        If your will would make it so you will never become pregnant

        Unfortunately, my will is not the only thing that comes into play. If women could simply will themselves to not be pregnant, things would be a hell of a lot easier.

        Also, I’d hardly characterize abortion discussions as something as lighthearted and friendly as “banter”.

      • Joe

        My wife is an English teacher and you presented the phrase and word as fact, not as an analogy. Perhaps that is not what you meant, but it’s what you wrote. “quibbling over the dictionary definition” All we have are words and there meaning in communicating if we don’t actually attempt to use them properly then I might as well be talking to you in Greek. I am a scientist, as such a science term was used and wasn’t used correctly. Hence my post. Take it or leave it. So you’re saying you don’t want to become pregnant…..and what is the purpose of intercourse? Yes it has multiple, but what is it’s main purpose? So like I said before, unless you will is taken from you, which is horrible to say the least, it is the only thing. Newton’s third law of motion.

      • Alix

        Hoo boy.

        1. Not all figurative language is signaled by a special word. Again: metaphor, analogy.
        2. Language changes, so no, there is no such thing as a definition set in stone. Otherwise, linguists would be out of a job.
        3. You understood the point. Quibbling over the precise meaning is a technique used to avoid engaging with the point.
        4. I would be happy to communicate with you in Greek, if desired. Or Latin. My Akkadian is really patchy, but if you like, we can muddle through in that as well.
        5. You yourself admit there are multiple purposes to intercourse. Sometimes, yes, it is for procreation. Other times it is indeed for fun, or for bonding between partners, or, hell, stress relief. Sometimes it’s even a sacred rite.
        6. I have no fucking clue where Newtonian physics came into this.

      • Joe

        We could do Italian. ;) My Spanish is a little rusty. Newtonian physics is in everything as physics is in everything. Language may change but once again, you didn’t create an analogy you posted a scientific word as a fact, where it didn’t apply.

      • Alix

        …I really ought to know more Spanish than I do. And while I agree that physics is rather a major part of physical reality, I still fail to see why it is showing up in what is essentially a philosophical debate over abortion.

        I … am starting to think we’re working from very different definitions of language, here.

        This is not a formal scientific arena, and I was not writing a formal scientific paper. “Parasite” is not a word that only scientists are permitted to use, and it does indeed have usages and connotations beyond simply its scientific definition.

        All that said, I was drawing a direct analogy between the fetus and the scientific definition of parasite. Once again with feeling: it was an analogy, which is a perfectly legitimate use of language.

        I … honestly do not understand why you are so hung up on this. I used the word parasite. You looked at that and decided to quibble over one fraction of its definition, instead of pausing for just a second to think that maybe such a disconnect meant that the word was used in a less-than-strict manner, i.e. as figurative, non-literal language.

        I honest to god don’t know how you expect people to communicate, then, given that people do this all the time. Are people limited to strict dictionary definitions for everything? Must people sit there and start every analogy with “warning: this is an analogy”?

        I’m kind of baffled by why this is even a problem for you.

      • Rosie

        Joe, I minored in physics, and let me tell you your use of Newton’s laws was WAY off. You might want to brush up on what the Third Law actually says and means before you try to use it to make a philosophical point. A pregnancy is in no way equal nor opposite to the act of sex. The ski-slope analogy is much better: is anyone who chooses to ski also consenting to the broken limbs that may very well result from that choice? Should we deny them care to remedy the situation if that happens?

      • Anna

        Why do you keep saying “pro-abortion”?
        Nobody out there, not even pro-choicers is pro abortion.
        I am pro choice, but that doesn’t make me Pro-abortion. I dont go “Well its a saturday afternoon, what should I do today? I’ll go have an abortion! That’ll be fun! Damn you pro-lifers spoiling my joy!”
        Nobody wants to have to have an abortion, however we want the choice to still exist if it is necessary.
        pro choice =/= pro abortion
        If I have a child right now, their life would be screwed up due to my lack of sufficient education and support, even if that child was to a monogamous boyfriend (sex before marriage =/= promiscuity) hence why the original poster wants proper birth control to be allowed and circulated, because if we have birth control, there is a far lower chance of pregnancy until we want one.

      • http://www.facebook.com/people/Aaron-Michaux/1471255189 Aaron Michaux

        He used the definition of parasite correctly.

      • puzzled_one

        “So why on earth can I not kill a (supposed) person who’s decided to set up shop inside me against my will?”

        Remember whence you came. Extend the same courtesy you were extended. Yes, you were still you — even as a fetus, an embryo, and a zygote.

        That is the reason — basically, the Golden Rule.

      • Alix

        If I ever decide to hook myself up to your body and start living off of you, I would fully support your right to kill me.

        I don’t have to be courteous to an unwanted invader. Would you like me to offer a cup of tea to anyone who chooses to break into my house?

        I was not me as a zygote, embryo, or fetus. I did not have a soul until I drew my first breath and gained consciousness. Not everyone shares your assumptions about when people become people.

        Also, hello. Not everyone’s a Christian, and the Golden Rule is overly simplistic as a guideline to ethical behavior.

        In short: not everyone fucking agrees with you, so do us the courtesy of letting us live our own damn lives and make our own moral choices.

      • SharonM

        “Extend the same courtesy” I love my mom and would not have wanted her to suffer an unwanted pregnancy with me.
        Also, please don’t insult me by assuming I’m a Christian.

      • Rosie

        While a fetus may not entirely fit the scientific definition of the word “parasite”, it certainly fits the second definition listed here: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/parasite?s=t. And it has enough in common with the first definition to warrant consideration.

      • http://gamesgirlsgods.blogspot.com/ Feminerd

        As Anat said, not always. And remember, consent to sex is not consent to pregnancy. We don’t argue that the guy who broke his leg skiing consented to a broken leg when he got on the slope, after all. I was lucky, I was careful, and so I never got pregnant in college (well, probably not. I had a scare that might have ended in an early miscarriage; it can be hard to tell sometimes) or early in my marriage. But if I had? I was in no place to be pregnant, with all the nausea and doctor’s appointments and extra expenses and missing tests and missing classes. So I would have chosen not to be.

        Future kids? Yeah, I want them. When I’m ready for them, which is likely in the next year or two. And if I had gotten pregnant in college, and had had an abortion, those future kids would thank me for it every day of their lives, because I had made the best choice for me and for them in finishing my degree and setting up my life to be able to care for them properly. How is that petty or spoiled? I consider it responsible and mature to know what you are and are not ready for and take appropriate action.

      • Not a Henry Clay Compromiser

        All you have done is to justify your fornication in college. How sad. Your future kids will not have a mother that can teach them self control and to wait for marriage as God commanded because you jumped the gun yourself. The abortion industry is hand in hand with promiscuity and that is a fact. I have a high sex drive, but I managed to go through high school and college without screwing around. Self control builds character and it allows you to explore relationships without being tied to a bed. I have been married almost thirty-nine years and my wife and I have absolute trust in each other sexually because those who practice fornication are far more prone to adultery and we are absolute in our commitment. The epidemic of STD’s, depressed people, and general unhappiness of people who buy your logic should be ample incentive to follow God’s simple but universal truths.

      • Niemand

        I’ve had sex a number of times and never been married. Number of unwanted pregnancies: 0. Number of confirmed STDs: 0. In fact, I’m HPV negative, which in a 45 year old woman who is sexually active is so extraordinarily rare that my gynecologist concluded that there was no point in giving me the vaccine because I clearly am so low risk that it’s ridiculous. Number of messy breakups: 0.25. (I could have handled it more elegantly.) Number of times I hopped into bed with someone and regretted it or found them to be creepy in the morning: 0.

        In contrast, a relative who I will not name in more detail lest s/he become recognizable “waited” (that is, got married to have sex). His/her spouse was an abuser. They spent their entire lives trying to get out of that relationship and that dynamic but failing. Partly because each believed that they not allowed to leave a marriage. Instead they underwent attempt after attempt to separate and always ended up back together. Their children were unwanted and they know it. The couple has no grandchildren because the children found marriage and having children such a horrid option that they were unwilling to engage in it.

        So, what was that about marriage solving all your problems?

      • Rosie

        Funny how I became considerably less depressed when I ditched God and his “universal truths” and started actually living. I’ve been married for a dozen years and happily polyamorous for six of those. And lest you be concerned about the effects on my future children, I’m not having any. Because being raised in accordance with the rules of your deity rather soured me on the prospect. (For the record, I would not at all mind having never been born, even had I been conceived. My mom wanted more babies and children than she had, but I’m not at all convinced she wanted me.)

      • tsara

        Asserting that there is a correlation (and some kind of direct causal relationship) between depression and sexual activity: [citation needed].

        (From, an asexual depressive.)

      • Kirk Steel

        Hey – good for you – now quit judging the way other people live their lives. Feminerd sounds like a reasonable, rational person. Remember, God commanded a number of things – manyof which are ridiculous. ReadLeviticus – do you wear mixed fabrics? Sinner!

      • SharonM

        I hate babies and kids. If someone forced me to bear a fetus against my will I would murder it.
        Also how would you feel about being forced to get an abortion?

      • Kevin

        “I hate babies and kids. If someone forced me to bear a fetus against my will I would murder it.”
        Shame your parents didn’t feel the same way.

      • http://patheos.com/blogs/lovejoyfeminism Libby Anne

        Okay, you get to be banned. I warned you, but you didn’t listen. Bye!

      • Rosie

        I’m pretty much right there with you, SharonM. With the addition that if I could not abort, I would suicide before I got to the second trimester. (Looks like Kevin would be advocating for the suicide option there, but I’m pretty sure my husband and family feel differently.)

      • tsara

        With you 100%.

        And I find it irritating (and telling) that no pro-life person has given me an answer for what they’d want society and the law to do in those cases. I’m of the opinion that there’s some cognitive dissonance preventing them from recognizing that that is basically what all of those women who chose Kermit Gosnell-like solutions were doing: get rid of the pregnancy or die trying.

      • Anat

        An organ donor has a choice about going through with an organ donation, and if they change their mind they cannot be forced to go through. Even if this results in the death of the would-be recipient. Despite the fact that the recipient is definitely a person. Persons do not get to use other persons’ bodies without consent.

        Therefore regardless of whether the woman chose to get pregnant, if she changes her mind about continuing the pregnancy it is her right to terminate the pregnancy. The personhood of the fetus shouldn’t even be a part of the equation, just like it isn’t in the case of organ donations.

      • Kevin

        “A woman doesn’t lose her rights to herself when she becomes pregnant.”
        How about when she gives birth? Can she go on a trip to Vegas alone, leaving he house unattended after she gives birth, because she can before? And I’m glad you oppose child support, because neither the mother or father loses their rights, right? Oh wait! You’re a hypocrite!

      • http://patheos.com/blogs/lovejoyfeminism Libby Anne

        Dude. I have a comment policy: No personal attacks! Also, what the heck are you on about? A woman can give up her baby and someone else can raise it—it’s as easy as leaving it at a hospital. That baby isn’t in her body any more and its care is transferable to someone else. Also, in many states you can stop paying child support if you give up your right to see the child or have any involvement in that child’s life, which is how I think it should be in every state. Perhaps you should think your assertions through before calling someone a hypocrite!

      • Kevin

        a. First off, which personal attacks? Sociopath is not an attack. IT’s a diagnosis. I certainly could be wrong (although this is unlikeely in this case.) But if someone said they had a runny nose, bad cough, body ache, and head ache, and I suggested that they had a cold, would that be a personal attack. Further, just below this post there is a post saying “What an idiot”, with no argument attached, and no comment from you. Interesting definition of personal attacks.
        b. “A woman can give up her baby and someone else can raise it—it’s as easy as leaving it at a hospital.” She can, to a point. Doing so after a certain age is illegal. The larger point is that a child irrefutably causes a parent to give up certain rights, both in and out of the womb. And not just a baby. When another person is involved it invariably restricts liberty. I can swing my fist, but not when another person is standing in front of me. A pregnancy is the EXACT same. A woman who is not pregnant can ingest abortifaceants 24 hours a day. It is when doing so will kill an unborn child that the law comes in. This completely disproves your initial point.
        c. “Question: How does a custody decision in a divorce affect child support?
        Answer: Both parents have responsibility to support their children financially. When a divorce occurs and one parent has physical custody of the children, that parent’s responsibility is fulfilled by being the custodial parent. The other parent then makes a child support payment which fulfills that non-custodial parent’s financial responsibilities. In the case of joint custody, the amount of child support each pays is normally calculated by the court considering the percentage each parent contributes to the couple’s joint income and the percentage of time each parent has physical custody of the children.”
        “Question: If my ex-spouse doesn’t let me have visitation, can I withhold child support?
        Answer: This is one of the biggest complaints of non-custodial fathers. Unfortunately, the answer is no. Child support payments and visitation are considered by the law to be totally separate issues. If your ex is not living up to the custody decree by providing visitation as required, you will need to go back to court to enforce the court order. You have an obligation to financially support your children, regardless of any visitation issues.”
        “Question: If you were never married to the child’s mother, do you still have to pay ?
        Answer: Yes. The obligation to support a child is not conditioned by marriage. If you are a parent, you have responsibility to financially support your offspring. Your parental responsibilities can be legally determined either through your acknowledgment that you are a parent, by the fact that you had welcomed the child into your home as your own, or as established by a paternity test. State laws vary somewhat on the definition of a parent, so if there is some doubt about your parentage, you will want to consult with a family law attorney in your state.
        It also happens at times that a man who fathered a child may not be asked to pay child support until the child’s mother receives public assistance. In that case, the government may come to the father seeking back child support to reimburse the government for their assistance payments. Many fathers have been “blindsided” by these orders many years after the fact.”
        … So… I was 100% right… A parent does give up their right to property when they father/mother a child… So… I assume your apology is forthcoming?

      • http://patheos.com/blogs/lovejoyfeminism Libby Anne

        This is my blog, MY space, so knock off the attitude. If you’ll noticed, I DELETED the comment in which a commenter called someone an idiot. Also, did you actually call someone a sociopath? All I saw was you calling someone a hypocrite rather than saying they were being hypocritical. That is what I was referring to when I mentioned personal attacks. If you called someone a sociopath, that’s even worse—you’re not a doctor and you haven’t professionally diagnosed anyone.

        Also, if you can’t see the difference between a person standing in front of you and something growing inside your body, there’s no reasoning with you. I’ve been pregnant twice, and let me tell you, there is a HUGE difference.

      • ZeldasCrown

        There is a huge difference between someone who has been born and somebody who hasn’t. If I am caring for someone (and this isn’t just infants-anyone of any age in any condition) my caring for them doesn’t interrupt my bodily autonomy. They are not attached to me. They are not drawing nutrients directly out of my body. They are not inducing physical changes that I have no control over to my body. Other people can also provide care besides just myself. I can care for them and still do whatever I choose to with my body (I can donate a kidney, get a tattoo, whatever, and it’s completely independent to whatever I do with the dependents I have). While a woman is pregnant, her unborn child is totally dependent upon her body-it’s not like she can choose to use formula one day instead of supplying nutrients via the umbilical cord. The nature of dependence is completely different between the two cases.

      • http://www.facebook.com/people/Aaron-Michaux/1471255189 Aaron Michaux

        If you understood the article, then you’d know that pro-choice people are the ones trying to actually reduce the numbers of abortions. Pro-life people really just want to control sex. Ignorance is no longer an excuse.

      • Anat

        We value human life, but we value human bodily autonomy even more. That’s why we let people go back on a decision to donate organs, including blood and bone marrow, regardless of consequences to the would-be recipient. That’s why a woman who got pregnant can choose to stop being pregnant regardless of consequences to the fetus. How safe will you feel to live in a society where others can claim a right to your organs without your consent?

      • Mike

        A world renown geneticists, from France, Jerome Lejuene, recipient of nobel prize, testified in U.S. Court trials, his opinion that human life begins when the zygote divides into three cells. it is at that point that cells begin to take on separate, distinct functions in service of the whole.

      • tsara

        Congratulations for him. Your point?

      • Kevin

        And yet your demarkation is equally ridiculous and arbitrary. I am able to say that without even knowing what it is, because literally every line drawn in the sand, literally everyone, is arbitrary. Should we be able to kill the fetus at 39 weeks, 6 days, 23 hours, 59 minutes, 59 seconds? I understand almost no children are born at exactly 40 weeks, but the point still stands. There is biologically 0 difference between an unborn child during labor and after birth, if birth is your demarcation. And honestly, for several weeks after, there is no difference. Should we be able to kill a child that has been born? Because most anti-lifers think so. What if the line is when you can live on your own? Should we kill everyone with a pacemaker? When talking about abortion limits you will necessarily run into a Sorites Paradox. So if you have a problem with “puzzled_one”‘s logic, great. But if your problem is that he is inconsistant, then you are a hypocrite.

      • Clo

        In the article above, the author specifically talked about contraception. To quote, “birth control pill works primarily by preventing ovulation in the first
        place, and also by impeding sperm so that it can’t get to the Fallopian
        tubes to fertilize the egg.” Furthermore, she states that she “later learned that an increasing pile of evidence suggests that the pill does not
        actually result in fertilized eggs being flushed out of a woman’s body.”

        The “harmful to the mothers health” has confused me for quite some time… i am a teenaged girl, and because of medical needs, i have to take the birth control pill. (btw, i am not sexually active, so dont freak out.) Yes, it has side effects, but so does every medication in existence that i have ever heard of. and compared to the side effects of other common medications, birth control is not high on the “harmful” list.

        On the point of the definition of when life begins, my father once gave me a little test to show me the difference between the two sides of the argument. He said, “if a 5-year-old child and a container of 20 embryo’s were trapped in a burning building and you could only save one, which would you choose?” I, of course, told him that i would save the 5-year-old. He replied that if the 20 embryo’s really were children, then it would be better for me to save the 20 lives over the 1 life. If pro-lifers are true to their word, then they would save the 20 because the embryo’s are people and 20 lives must be more important then 1. But, even after thinking about it, i knew that i would still save the 5-year-old, because while the embryo’s would never even know that they were dying, the child would feel fear and pain and be aware of their death… and that made the child more important to me. that made the 1 child more important then the 20 “children”. I would like to hear your side of the argument, puzzled_one, and if you could please tell me, which one would you save?

      • Niemand

        The demarkation is at the fertilization of the egg.

        What do you mean by “fertilization of the egg”? Do you mean the fusion of the sperm and oocyte membranes? The alteration of the oocyte membrane to prevent further sperm from entering? The second mitotic division of the oocyte to make it an egg? The fusion of the pronuclei from the egg and sperm? One of the multiple steps I’ve left out? It’s not like fertilization is a quantum event you know. Also, if all fertilized eggs are people, then as many as 80% of people die in the first two weeks of life. Um…little public health problem, anyone? No interest? None?

      • Richter_DL

        At which point is the child NOT an individual human being with his OWN DNA?
        A child is never part of the father’s body.

        The fertilisation of an egg, however, means nothing either. DNA is not a full human being. You need a lot more than that. what’s further, even a few cells are not a complete human being. They are not viable on their own, they are dead outside the mother’s body. Unless the organism can sustain itself, giving it full rights as a human being makes no sense. And then, you have to balance a potential human’s rights with an actually existing human being’s, the mother. It’s not an easy piece of legislation, but personhood for a cell cluster certainly is nto the solution. See my post on the problems cloning brings up.

        And there are more natural abortions for a variety of reasons (knockout mutations, failed implantation into the uterine wall, fatal early embryonic developmental conditions), as stated above, than the pill produces. Unless you want to argue with natural deaths = god’s will (which has no place in legislation, unless America is now officially a theocracy), what about those? Is each of these criminal neglect? Or maybe natural neglect that has to be accepted? Do you want eugenics laws that apply this to other people, like inherited diseases or cancer, which develops of the patient’s body without (usually) outside agents causing it?

        Embryonal personhood is a poorly thought out concept that, in the end, only serves the agenda of a patriarchal, religious movement who are comparable in quality and modus operandi to muslim fundamentalists.

        On a side note, pregnancies come with a lot more health risks for a woman than the pill.

        TL;DR: your reasoning is fatally flawed. Try again.

      • Richter_DL

        At which point is the child NOT an individual human being with his OWN DNA?

        DNA does not make a human being. A few cells do not make a human being. Thought consequently, embryonal personhood, human cloning would mean all stem cells and zygotes fall under personhood rights, too. Say goodbye to cancer therapy. Think about what that would mean for men, where out of a million sperm, one – maybe – gets to merge with an egg. What about the million others? What about nocturnal emissions? This is a very poorly thought out concept and a thinly disguised instrument of a fundamentalist, talibanized Christianity in America that is so distant from Christianity’s ideals that it might just as well call itself by another name (I recomment Cult of Cthulhu, though you might run into copyright issues there).

        In fact, being a fully functional organism that can sustain itself (at least briefly) autonomously is a much better threshold. And then, you have to balance this potential organism’s interests against the interests of a fully developed human being – the mother. Who has, you know, rights, too, no matter what Taliban-Christians in America would like.

      • tsara

        You’ve inspired me. I’m going to ask for some lab time and for a DNA donation from a friend, and I’m going to take some of her DNA and some of my DNA, and do some slicing and reattaching.

        After that, I’m going to take the microtube with the end product in it everywhere. I will draw a face on it and name it Bob. Everybody will know that I am Bob’s mother. And then I’ll find a pro-life organization, and I will ask them to help me fight for Bob’s rights.

        I am confident that, within twenty years, I will be able to vote twice.

      • anon

        condoms, spermicide – of course you’re completely fine with birth control methods that allow men to control their side of the equations, but when it comes to women’s ability to control their fertility that is out of the question I guess

      • Joe

        I think you missed the point: “The reality is that so-called pro-life movement is not about saving babies. It’s about regulating sex.” Exactly like you are trying to do in your post.”
        Also, did it ever crossed your mind that some people who have sex aren’t married. Furthermore, how do you justify that a physical barrier to conception as more moral than a biochemical one? And what about those zygotes that are rejected by those who aren’t on birth control? I guess that is okay because it is God himself killing those babies! BTW, abstaince is life ending. Ever heard of the Shakers? As of 2012 there are only 3 remaining members. Celibacy does wonders to weed out stupidy. I am the one who is puzzled here!

      • puzzled_one

        I am not trying to regulate sex. Just counselling against harm (intended, or not) to third parties (the unborn child).

        “And what about those zygotes that are rejected by those who aren’t on birth control? I guess that is okay because it is God himself killing those babies!”

        Yes, ditto for when someone dies of illness, versus when you throttle him to death

        (From my post above. )

        I have no problems with contraception which exclusively affects either the man’s, or the woman’s, body parts (e.g. condoms, spermicide) . However, contraception, like the pill, that may end up killing a a fertlised egg, is wrong (besides being harmful to the mother’s health).

        My reasoning: lets work backward from a delivery…. infant .. fetus… embryo… fertilised egg…. then the sperm and the unfertilized egg.

        At which point is the child NOT an individual human being with his OWN DNA? (i.e. At which point does this child become exclusively the mother’s, or exclusively the father’s, body part?)

        The demarkation is at the fertilization of the egg.

      • http://gamesgirlsgods.blogspot.com/ Feminerd

        One of these things is not like the others, one of these things is not the same …

        And now that everyone’s singing along a little, we see how patterns change when we look at things a little different. At what point do we have a being that is not dependent on another person for its very existence? Why, it’s the infant! Thus, the infant is an independent human being because it can survive outside of another person’s body, while everything else is a biological parasite. Having unique DNA is clearly not the demarcation of a person: hydatidiform moles have unique DNA but are not people, while identical twins with identical DNA are clearly two people, not one. Further, chimaeric people (people with a patchwork of two different genetic codes) are only one person, even though they have two sets of DNA.

        Clearly, your definition of a person is flawed and unworkable. Mine, on the other hand, has the benefit of being internally consistent AND acknowledging the humanity of women, giving them full rights to control their own bodies.

        The demarcation is independent existence.

      • puzzled_one

        “The demarcation is independent existence.”

        No, the demarcation is human individuality.

        Otherwise your assumption makes it OK for Dr. Kermit Gosnell (Google him!) to enter the emergency room; where you lie comatose – and desperately dependent – after your accident; and snip your spinal cord.

        And an infant isn’t dependent on others for its very existence? You’re thinking sand tiger shark infant; not human infant :-)

        Regarding DNA: its just one – not the only – indicator of individuality. Please see my reply to ‘Anat’ above.

      • victoria

        There’s a false dilemma going on here:

        1.) Human life is valuable.
        2.) Living humans have unique DNA.
        3.) An individual gets its own unique DNA at the time of conception.
        4.) Therefore, human life begins at conception.

        The false dilemma is between propositions 2 and 3. There is an awful lot of development that happens between conception and birth, and you’ve given no reason why one of the sentinel events there shouldn’t be the dividing line.

      • http://gamesgirlsgods.blogspot.com/ Feminerd

        Oh, trust me, I’m aware of and following the Gosnell case. And the reason he’s being charged with infanticide is many of the late-term abortions he performed resulted in infants who breathed. In other words, people who could live outside the womb, on their own (well, with major NICU support and maybe not even then, but they had a chance). Additionally, he performed abortions in unsanitary and unsafe conditions- I note you didn’t mention the two women who died. Is it because you don’t care about them? After all, they’re just the slutty slut-sluts who didn’t want to be life-support systems for babies they didn’t want and couldn’t afford. And it’s not like labor and delivery is always life- and health-threatening … oh wait, yes it is.

        Dependent on others for help and dependent on another person’s body are two very different things. Everyone is dependent, to some degree or another, on other people. I am not, however, dependent on my husband for getting oxygen into my system, nor am I tied to him by tubes that he shares his blood with me through. Fetuses cannot live outside of another person’s body; thus, they are not full people. They are potential people. Once a baby is born, another person can care for hir. Ze can survive absent hir biological mother. Thus, a baby is a person.

      • puzzled_one

        “Fetuses cannot live outside of another person’s body; thus, they are not full people. They are potential people.”

        Well, for a moment let us accept your whimsical and arbitrary definition of a ‘full person’.

        That means conjoined twins who share a liver and a heart, are not full people — they are dependent on another’s body after all. So, according to your logic, murdering one twin is not as serious as murdering a full person!

        If this sounds abhorrent, I pray you’d agree that the same degree of ethical soul-searching and medical care that goes into separating conjoined twins should be applied to surgically separating a woman from her unborn child.

        Regarding Gosnell, the reason I didn’t mention his unfortunate patients that he killed them by mistake / negligence, but he killed the infants intentionally. Its a tragedy in both cases.

        But it is no surprise that disrespect for one ‘type’ of life (incomplete), will eventually ‘bleed over’ to disrespect for other types (low income women).

      • http://gamesgirlsgods.blogspot.com/ Feminerd

        Um, actually, we do that quite often. If the conjoined twins start failing, we often separate the sicker twin from the healthier twin, accepting the death of the sicker twin to try to save one life out of it. The alternative would be to watch both of them die.

        Would you consider it more ethical to just let them both die? I don’t.

      • http://www.facebook.com/catherine.gearhart Catherine Vanderbilt Gearhart

        Bravo Feminerd!!

      • Kevin

        “But it is no surprise that disrespect for one ‘type’ of life (incomplete), will eventually ‘bleed over’ as disrespect for other types (low income women).”
        Unfortunately, you’re more right then you know. The anti-life movement has always gone hand in hand with the racist movement. Margaret Sanger was possibly the most racist American in the history of the United States. And her pro-abortion stance was not incidental to her racism. She viewed abortion as a means of achieving her eugenics eutopia. So not only were the two inseperably intertwined in her, but in every proponent of abortion. Robert Byrd an Grand Kleagle and Cyclops in the Klu Klux Klan (and known as the Liberal Conscience of the Senate) was not only an ardent segregationist but recieved consistantly glowing scores from NARAL. You talk of a bleed over, but those stances are in fact one and the same, and always have been and always will be.

      • Kevin

        I am really glad that the party of Jim Crow is here on this site once again re-endorsing their previous idea of “not full people”. I mean what could possibly go wrong when Democrats (or other Leftists) define certain individuals as “not full people”…?

      • http://gamesgirlsgods.blogspot.com/ Feminerd

        /sigh

        I’m so glad the vicissitudes of history have passed you by- yes, the Democrats have a shameful history of being the party of white bigots, but after LBJ passed the Civil Rights Act, the Republicans gladly “stole” all those people and their votes. The Republicans have been the party of heartless capitalism, racism, and misogyny since 1965 because they decided it would be a winning strategy, and for a long time it was. Google Lee Atwater and the Southern Strategy if you don’t believe me.

        If anyone is endorsing the idea of “not full people”, it is you. You claim women aren’t full people because they simply cannot be allowed to control their bodies. Read this thread for more discussion of forced organ donation, bodily autonomy, and humanity. I don’t feel like going into it again.

      • Kevin

        “At what point do we have a being that is not dependent on another person for its very existence? Why, it’s the infant! ”
        Unless that infant is on welfare! Then the infant (and it’s parents) exist solely by leaching off of others? Can we kill them? If not, you’re irrational!
        “Clearly, your definition of a person is flawed and unworkable. Mine, on the other hand, has the benefit of being internally consistent AND acknowledging the humanity of women, giving them full rights to control their own bodies.”
        Again, only if you consider welfare recipients not human. But I bet you do, so you’re a hypocrite and a liar…

      • http://patheos.com/blogs/lovejoyfeminism Libby Anne

        I warned you once and you wouldn’t listen. I’m banning you. Bye!

      • http://gamesgirlsgods.blogspot.com/ Feminerd

        Bad analogy is bad.

      • http://www.facebook.com/people/Michael-W-Busch/578120211 Michael W Busch

        Hormonal contraceptives don’t “kill a fertilized egg” – they suppress ovulation.

      • http://www.facebook.com/catherine.gearhart Catherine Vanderbilt Gearhart

        Hey moron, can you not read??? For the one millionth time: HORMONAL BIRTH CONTROL DOES NOT KILL A FERTILIZED EGG!! And it is NOT harmful to the woman. I used the pill for 20 years with no problem.

      • http://twitter.com/WendiKent Wendi Kent

        idiot. I just can’t believe how idiotic these 4 statements are.

      • Kevin

        Well, can’t argue with that…. Very articulate…. Way to go!

      • http://patheos.com/blogs/lovejoyfeminism Libby Anne

        Wearing two condoms actually decreases the effectiveness.

      • Conuly

        Significantly. You’d almost be better with none

      • Rosie

        Abstinence may not be life-ending, but it sure has the potential to be marriage-ending.

      • Kirk Steel

        Abstain? Obviously you and/or your partner are either poor at sex or do not enjoy it. FFS, read the article – learn from it – apply the lessons. Quit trying to run/ruin other people’s lives.

      • Chris

        Exactly! Franky, I don’t get the obsession with hetero’s and vaginal/penile intercourse if you aren’t procreating. As a gay man, I don’t engage in anal sex… which some gay men participate in. So is my sex life less exciting or unfulfilling because I don’t have anal? No. I do other things with my partner of 10 years. From what I have read, most women don’t even orgasm from intercourse, so why do it then if you aren’t going to make babies? Why? I assume because most men want it from their women; because it isn’t “real sex” unless a penis is invading a vagina. Maybe it’s time for straight women to start dictating what sexual activities are in THEIR best interests instead of doing it merely to please their men. It’s time women start asking for more oral pleasure and more clitoral orgasms and less vagina action. It will cut down on unintended pregnancies and it will put women in control of their fertility for once.

    • Anne

      In situations where the mother’s life is threatened – as it is clearly so in your case – it depends on which loss of life will bring more pain. If you die, it will bring greater pain to your husband friends, coworkers, everyone you know, more than the death of the unborn child would bring all those you care about. Tell God you are not making this decision for yourself, but for the sake of all those around you.

      • Anne

        Oh, and I should add that if you’re going to miscarry anyway (which, past evidence indicates you will), there’s no shame in putting that unborn child out of its misery earlier.

    • Kevin

      “It would be lovely if some of the pro-life supporters were forced into the situation that God placed me.”
      That bout sums it up. We’re supposed to feel so horrible for you, for having such an awful condition… and then you go and wish it on others. So you wish evil on others, and you’re in favor of the wholesale slaughter of unborn children! What a coincidence!

  • rcs

    A Pro-Life demonstration(they are in front of a girls dorm and are in the students faces) at CSU in Fort Collins, CO has made this article circulate through CSU Confessions…https://www.facebook.com/CSUconfess?hc_location=stream. Nothing like pushing fear to make people go out looking for truth. Thank you!

    • mary

      I go to CSU, please tell me what dorms are even close to the plaza. I’d also like to inform you that there are no “girls dorms” here either. The demonstration might be in your face, but don’t exaggerate what they are doing. They are also not yelling or shaming people, they just want to talk.

      • Surroundedbyfanatics

        Why don’t they mind their own business? Each individual has a constitutional right to make up their own mind about such a personal issue. Do you see Planned Parenthood picketing ob gyn offices, trying to influence the decisions of patients who have made the decision to become parents? Of course not. They could better use their time in working at community centers providing parenting classes, nutrition classes and referring parents to social agencies that can offer them the help they need to give the best they can for these children they have brought into the world.

  • http://www.facebook.com/david.c.dickson.1 David Carlton Dickson

    I’m with you. Not because I’m certain of when life begins (I’m not), but because I figure a movement’s actions should be consonant with its goals. And the pro-life movement’s simply aren’t. Most of its activists seem so cynical toward government and law in general that their goal of legally banning abortion has become completely separated from its intended effect. They just want to “make a statement”, as it were. “Return values to government”, they say. If it doesn’t have any effect on the abortion rate, well, so what. At least all of society will know we disapprove of it, etc.

    It’s ironic that a presidential action that will reduce abortions more than perhaps any other of the last forty years has become “the last straw” for pro-lifers. No wonder Democrats won a culture war victory the last election. Voters saw the contradiction.

  • Alexandra Stevens

    I think it is always valuable to point out inconsistencies with any movement, and you have done a terrific job with that. I would also like to suggest that an alternative to “switching sides” on the pro life issue would be to be a consistent pro-lifer– one that supports mothers financially and supports the government programs that do so, and one that supports contraception(but keep in mind that contraception is only part of the solution, as its effectiveness decreases over time and not all mothers can use it safely). When it comes down to it, that’s what a pregnancy care center does– support mothers with financial support and emotional support. Your argument about the zygotes dying naturally was interesting, but I would suggest that just because Nature has a way of getting rid of non-viable pregnancies does not mean that we have the right to make that determination for ourselves. If a woman cannot raise a child, she may choose to have it adopted through an agency. Many agencies exist that allow the mother to choose the couple to which to entrust the baby to at no charge for herself, which is a wonderful way to bless a couple that cannot have children of their own. A true pro-lifer does not belong to that camp because they want to restrict a woman’s sexuality (those may exist but that’s irrelevant to whether or not abortion is murder), but because they believe that God is the author of life and that He alone can decide whether or not to take it. Making moral determinations that involve killing babies to save babies is a very dangerous moral position to put yourself in– for what you are doing is putting yourself in the place of God.

  • Garrett Trotter

    The reason you came to such blows with the illogical, conservative pro-life side of things is because you did one thing that most conservatives never do: think.

  • eggers

    Thank you for posting this. I can now just print this out and hand it too the next person who wants to condemn me for being Pro-choice.

  • Dick P.

    Thanks Libby Anne for your sharing the
    path to sanity. We are all born a blank slate where life, our most
    trusted mentors, parents etc. write on this slate long before we
    develop an ability to think critically. You passed the critical
    thinking test with flying colors. I find it reprehensible that
    certain people in power actively promote the lies that you delineated
    in your piece. In my opinion it is done for political gain at the
    expense of the female population of our country.

  • plankbob

    I tried repeatedly at Catholic rosary rallies “for life” last year with my sign and my voice to convince them that birth control reduces abortions. They, or the ones who spoke up, refused to admit it. Their reasoning is: Birth control results in more people having sex, and since it’s unreliable and from the sheer numbers of people having sex, there are more pregnancies.
    Thank you for your great essay.

    • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=21708336 Joe

      The problem is her math is wrong. Based on the fact that studies have shown an increase of sexual activity due to increased contraception use, given the failure rates, the abortion rates increase.

      • http://www.facebook.com/people/Michael-W-Busch/578120211 Michael W Busch

        You are lying.

      • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=21708336 Joe

        According to the cdc’s report. http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/series/sr_23/sr23_030.pdf a large portion of sexually active individuals between the ages of 15 to 19 use condoms as the primary method of contraception so no I wasn’t lying. The failure rate of condoms is completely applicable to the conversation.

      • http://www.facebook.com/people/Michael-W-Busch/578120211 Michael W Busch

        Male latex condoms have a typical-use failure rate of 15%/year. In other words, women whose partners use condoms become pregnant at 1/6 – 1/5 the rate of women who use no form of contraception. This is explained in the Wikipedia article I linked before.

        And most women who need abortions are not teenagers, so the article you are presenting does not support your statement. Quite the reverse, actually: it says that we should make efforts to increase the use of more effective contraceptives by younger women. Condoms are far better than no form of contraceptive at all and very important to prevent STIs, but they are not as good contraceptives as other methods.

        So you were lying, or at least entirely misunderstanding the data.

      • ZeldasCrown

        Exactly. The point is that even though these various methods of birth control aren’t perfect, they all result in fewer unwanted pregnancies (compared to using nothing) and thus lower the number of abortions.

        Joe, you seem to be saying that since the typical use rate isn’t 100% effective, then it’s not worth using? That somehow, even if there’s four times fewer unwanted pregnancies using barrier methods compared to using nothing (to use Michael’s numbers above), somehow that reducing the total number of unwanted pregnancies results in the same overall number of abortions? I would think that the percentage of all women who would get an abortion no matter the circumstances is roughly constant (for the sake of argument, let’s call this 20%-I have no idea what this number actually is, but I recall reading somewhere that the current rate of abortions in the US is somewhere in that neighborhood), so if there are 100 unwanted pregnancies, that would be 20 abortions. If, due to increased use of various birth control methods, we reduce this number by four times to 25 pregnancies, this would result in only 5 abortions. Even though birth control isn’t perfect, it’s better than nothing.

      • plankbob

        I’d like to see links to those studies and know who’s behind them. I am suspicious of Republican math, by the way.

      • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=21708336 Joe

        who said I’m republican, you are making a gross assumption based on very little information. Oh and you’re wrong.

      • plankbob

        Didn’t say you were and was referring to suspicion about the studies’ math. Do you have the links to back up your contention?

      • victoria

        I’m interested to see what support you have for that claim. It didn’t square with what I’d heard about the differences in teen pregnancy in the US and various Western European nations (where the age of first intercourse is about the same on average, but Western Europe has far lower rates of teen pregnancy and STDs, believed to be due in large part to comprehensive sex education and easily available contraceptives).

        So I looked up this statement in Google Scholar & Medline & Psycinfo and couldn’t find much that supported it. There were a few studies from the 1970s that showed a (very) modest increase in sexual activity among 15 and 16 year olds who had access to contraception. However, more recent studies seem to indicate that the rates of sexual activity are not statistically different among teens who have and have not been distributed condoms and those who have and have not had comprehensive sexual education. (Admittedly, this was a really quick & dirty search!) If you have some research that shows differently I’d be very interested to read it.

      • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=21708336 Joe

        http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm6117a1.htm
        There was an increase in sexual activity in teens. This is a very complex issue but the fact remains, trying to supplant Newton’s third law of motion is never a good thing.

      • victoria

        That study shows a *decrease* in sexual activity among American teens over the last decade.

        “During 2006-2010, more than half (56.7%) of female teens had never had sex, reflecting a 16% increase relative to the 1995 estimate of 48.9%.”

      • http://www.facebook.com/people/Michael-W-Busch/578120211 Michael W Busch

        Newtonian mechanics is irrelevant here. You’re thinking of “Risk compensation”, but – as has been explained already – that doesn’t apply either.

      • victoria

        I’m interested in seeing your sources. That statement doesn’t square with what the current differences in teen sexuality and pregnancy in the US and Western Europe (age at first intercourse is about the same in both regions, but Western Europe has dramatically lower teen pregnancy and STD rates, believed to be largely due to better sex education and easier access to contraceptives.)

        So I looked up your statement in Medline, PsycINFO, and Google Scholar. Not a proper, full literature review (that would take quite awhile) but just to see what’s available. And I couldn’t find anything that really supported your statement. There are some studies from the 1970s that showed very, very modest increases in the percentage of sexually active people at different ages when teens were provided with comprehensive sex ed. But more recent studies generally show no difference whatsoever in the age at which teens begin having sex in response to contraception being made easily available. I can post links to some of those studies if you’d like.

        If you have a study to cite, I’d be curious to read it.

      • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=21708336 Joe

        Thank you for your response. There is more of an applicability in the the failure rate of condoms which is the most common form of contraceptive used among teenagers. Up to 1988 there was an increase in sexual activity but you are correct, there has seemingly been a trend in decreased sexual activity among 15-19 year olds which isn’t a bad thing. http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/series/sr_23/sr23_030.pdf

      • victoria

        And thank you back for your civil response :) . A rarity in these kinds of discussions, sometimes.

        I would assume that among the population of teens who use condoms as their primary contraception, the failure rate would be right around the typical rate (15%) — not approaching the perfect use rate (2%).

        So suppose you had a population where few people had sex, but the ones who did have sex had unprotected sex. Then you introduce condoms as the only available form of birth control and they’re used by everyone in that population that has sex, with typical use failure rates. Rates of sexual activity would have to increase nearly *sixfold* in order for you to end up with more pregnancies resulting from birth control failure than from the unprotected sex a smaller proportion were having before.

        The studies I could find that showed an increase in sex rates after making condoms available or after comprehensive sex ed showed much, much smaller increases than that — they’d go from, say, 10% to 13%. (Note also that in that MMWR study about 60% of the girls were using something like a contraceptive patch, an IUD, or an implant. Those have typical use failure rates of <1%-2%. In our hypothetical population, you'd have to have more than forty times as many people having sex than the unprotected situation for contraceptive failure to outweigh the unprotected pregnancies.)

      • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=21708336 Joe

        Interesting. though the pill’s failure rate is hardly the perfect usage failure rate of 1%. I guess my overall point would be that there is a failure rate, and as such, if you are distributing condoms, like planned parenthood does, then when a pregnancy occurs, which given the 15% rate would occur then for every 1000 there would be 150 pregnancies. Of course usage varies so that number is on the high side, but I think you get my point. Those individuals seeking to terminate the unwanted pregnancy would likely go where they received the implement to prevent said pregnancy, especially if one of the known services of said organization were to terminate said pregnancy. That is my major problem. The goal would be reduce the number of abortions, but there would be abortions that would inevitably occur. Which is why birth control doesn’t seem like the logical solution.

      • http://www.facebook.com/people/Michael-W-Busch/578120211 Michael W Busch

        There will always be abortions.

        That is a big part of Libby Anne’s point. If women want abortions, they will get them. All outlawing abortions does is drive up the number of unsafe abortions, leaving the rate roughly constant, and lead to many women dying.

        Effective contraception is the only strategy that decreases the rate of abortions, because it decreases the number of unwanted pregnancies. Ideally, everyone who wanted them would have ready access to contraceptives even more effective than we have now and almost all pregnancies would be wanted ones. But even then, there would still be a need for abortions – albeit at perhaps 5% of the current US rate.

      • victoria

        “Which is why birth control doesn’t seem like the logical solution.”

        I agree with you that contraception won’t prevent all abortions. (Not least of all because sometimes circumstances change dramatically during a pregnancy that was initially planned.) But surely it’s an important component of a balanced plan for doing so — which could include encouraging people to avoid sexual activities that can lead to pregnancy when they’re not trying to get pregnant, improving prenatal care and social services so that people who want to parent but can’t afford to do so responsibly might be able to make that work, and/or making sure that people who are good candidates for the most effective birth control methods (IUDs, implants, etc.) have access to those instead of things like condoms or the pill or withdrawal that are less effective in practice.

        Programs that encourage teens to delay sexual activity are fine (waiting at least past the early teens to start having sex is correlated with a number of positive health outcomes), but abstinence is not the solution either. Most people do end up married at some point and few want to either abstain from sex with their spouse for long periods or get pregnant every year or two. Almost one in every five women who has an abortion is currently married.

        I guess if the particular beef is with Planned Parenthood one solution would be for crisis pregnancy centers to offer free contraception for people who want it, but I can’t imaging that happening….

      • Joe

        Honestly, my biggest issue is with abortion. Plus, other forms of family planning can be just as effective as birth control, without the side effects. People make fun of NFP but the Billings method and Creighton models are both scientific and highly effective in not only abstaining but, and I can not stress this highly enough, GETTING pregnant. So actual family planning. BC can only prevent, so it doesn’t really help plan it just prevents. Unless you’re in the failure rate.

      • victoria

        I know people who use fertility awareness methods and like them. As pregnancy prevention goes I know they’re good for people who want to and can use them, which I would classify as people in monogamous relationships with good communication skills and a willingness to abstain during infertile periods, and who don’t have the kinds of health issues that make them difficult. There’s an interesting series here: http://womenintheology.org/category/women-speak-about-natural-family-planning/

        I should also disclose my own bias: I am keenly aware that my own pregnancy would not have been prevented by most of the common NFP methods — Creighton yes, Marquette no, etc. — and after the complications I had with that pregnancy I did not consider NFP sufficiently effective for my needs. A 3% failure rate in typical use isn’t bad in absolute terms but someone at the age I was after I had my daughter would stand a roughly even chance of getting pregnant at some point during their reproductive life using it.

      • http://www.facebook.com/people/Michael-W-Busch/578120211 Michael W Busch

        “other forms of family planning can be just as effective as birth control”

        That is not true. Symptoms-based fertility awareness, requiring regular monitoring of basal body temperature and cervical mucus, has a failure rate of 1.8%/year. That is better than some contraceptive methods (barriers, oral pills) but a factor of 10 to 30 less effective than hormonal IUDs and implants and a factor of 3 less effective than non-hormonal IUDs.

        The Billings method has a typical-use failure rate of up to ~5%/year and the Creighton one ~3%/year, because they do not include all of the same data as the more carefully-monitored versions.

        So if you are really serious about reducing the number of abortions, you should be advocating for everyone who wants them having access to the most effective contraceptives possible. That includes men, by the way – ideally, Vasalgel or something similar will prove out and failure rates will drop by another order of magnitude or more.

      • victoria

        Sorry for the double post — it looked like the previous one hadn’t come through.

  • jcst

    Just found this. I feel like you have spoken for me on so many levels. Thank you for giving words to the nagging thoughts in my head.

  • Kennedy

    Great way to rationalize murder, just call an unborn child something else and delude into enlightenment. And how easy it is to pick out the fringe of the pro-life movement to better align yourself with the pro-death side. What a pathetic person you are.

    • Alix

      I’ll kill anything that tries to co-opt my body and use it to its own ends. Happily. If that makes me a murderer, I’m cool with that.

      A fetus is not a child. It’s not independently alive, and I don’t believe it even has a soul. Killing it is no different than cutting off my hair, or cutting out a tumor.

      But you’re pathetically trying to rationalize forced-birthing and the enslavement of women to their uterus, so.

      • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=21708336 Joe

        The problem with that is that there are consequences for every action, most unintended. So while you will destroy the “fetus” that is “co-opting your body”, you are doing damage, perhaps unfix able to your body for an entirely natural and healthy process.

      • Alix

        And if I let the fetus co-opt my body, it will spend nine months making serious changes to my body, some permanent, that can lead to permanent damage and trauma.

        Pregnancy may be a natural process, but it’s hardly benign.

      • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=21708336 Joe

        I never said it was.

      • Alix

        It seemed implied in the “healthy process” part.

      • Beutelratti

        In what universe is a pregnancy healthy?

      • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=21708336 Joe

        This one.

      • Beutelratti

        Certainly not.
        Stretch marks are not healthy, nausea is not healthy, CRACKS IN MY FRIGGIN VAGINA are not healthy.

      • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=21708336 Joe

        but hopefully the baby is.

      • Beutelratti

        This is not about a hypothetical baby. This is about what pregnancy does and can do to a woman’s body and none of that is healthy. So stop evading. A pregnancy is not healthy for any woman’s body.

      • Beutelratti

        This is not about a hypothetical baby. This is about what pregnancy does and can do to a woman’s body and none of that is healthy. So stop evading. A pregnancy is not healthy for any woman’s body.

      • Joe

        I’m not evading and neither is the baby, it is a normal and natural occurrence based on a chain of events that more than likely occurred through the consent of two adults.

      • Alix

        By that logic, so are STIs. Should we not take steps to get rid of those?

        We do things all the time to mitigate the natural and normal consequences of our actions. I don’t see how getting rid of a clump of insensate cells is unique in that regard.

      • drumchik

        The maternal mortality rate (deaths related to childbirth) has been consistently rising – in THIS country, where we supposedly have such fine medical care – for the past 25 years. While childbirth is natural, biologically speaking, it is not necessarily a safe or healthy process.

        Your opinion on this topic is just that – YOUR opinion. And you are free to base YOUR life decisions upon that. (The fact that you don’t have a uterus means you will never face this particular life decision, however.) My opinion is very different. You don’t get to insist that I, or any other woman, should be forced to make life choices based on YOUR opinions.

  • Pingback: My humble submission to the conversation about Gosnell, abortion and hormonal contraceptives | The Weakest Reed

  • Serina

    I always wanted to stop and ask the “stop abortion” protesters at the Planned Parenthood clinics how many unwanted children they have taken in. The logic is that if they are going oppose the abortion, are they going to guarantee the mother her job through the pregnancy and birth (yes, many have lost their jobs even today because of pregnancy) and care for the child after the birth. Of the groups I saw most often – I’m betting the answer is – none.

  • http://gamesgirlsgods.blogspot.com/ Feminerd

    Health problems? Like well-regulated menstrual cycles, less painful menstrual cycles, control of polycystic ovarian syndrome (PCOS), control of severe acne, and other health benefits? I can see why you’d get confused ….

    Oh wait, no, I can’t. Yes, hormonal birth control has a small risk of raised blood pressure, heart attack, or stroke. That’s why it’s still prescription-only instead of OTC. You have to see a doctor and get a check-up every year before you get it. It’s still an extremely safe medication, safer than most on the market, and well worth the tiny extra risks. It uses the same hormones that pregnancy creates, only in smaller doses, so if it’s “dangerous” to use hormonal birth control, how much more dangerous is pregnancy?

  • Uriel 238

    I’ve noticed a long time that the anti-abortion-access sector has focused entirely on either state obstruction, or demonstration-based obstruction to abortion, rather than any of the other fronts by which they could improve the lives of post-birth children. Surprisingly the same ideology that is against abortion access and birth-control access is also against child welfare programs and education programs, or improving our already-impacted and under-staffed foster-care program.

    One might be tempted to take unwanted infants and put them at the doorsteps of well-to-do Republicans and see how they fare.

    One solution that remains in development (but we’ll probably see prototypes in the next decade) is ectogenesis, that is, an artificial womb. With this technology and a minimally-invasive procedure to transplant a zygote or fetus, we could make sure that every child has a chance to survive independent of the mother. (Fancy commercial versions will pipe Mozart to the incubation vats.) Whether or not this causes a population explosion, or encourages pro-lifers to save even naturally-rejected zygotes remains to be seen. It will create controversies, but so long as it resolves THIS controversy, it’s a good trade off.

    Burt more and more, the “pro-life” movement seems more and more about punishing poor women who dare to have sex lives, and recent conservative hubris has propelled some of their talking heads to all but openly admit that.

    • Niemand

      Compare the “conservative” approach to preventing child abuse with preventing abortion. A fetus in utero is a precious innocent entity that must have rights and protections given to no living person (i.e. the right to use another’s body for their own benefit.) After birth…the same people want no restrictions at all on the rights of parents to “discipline” and abuse children as they see fit and see the children as “willful” monsters full or “original sin” who must be beaten for their own good. The US is practically the only country with a working government to not have signed the UN Declaration of the Rights of the Child because conservatives are so afraid that this might lead to restrictions on how hard a parent can beat a child.

      It’s clearly not about saving fetuses. The same fetuses become throw away children, good only as the parents’ property at the moment of birth. It’s about controlling women.

      I’m betting that if we had artificial uteri (and why don’t we? partly because underfunding of the NIH means that no one is working on them) then the anti-abortion movement will declare them “unnatural” and work to forbid their use. Why? Because more babies is not what they want. More control is.

      • Uriel 238

        We seem to have a difficult time calling them out on this. With the invention of the internet in which all this language is preserved, obstructionists can’t be so slippery anymore, yet it’s been clear that they (like the churches) have been all about controlling women and controlling sex lives.

        If this was Nestle, we would have banished them from the Capital long ago. Or perhaps that’s just me being naive.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Michael-W-Busch/578120211 Michael W Busch
  • victoria

    Condoms aren’t the one-size-fits-all solution for contraception. They really aren’t an ideal sole method of contraception, and for some people they’re not workable at all.

    The big difference in typical use rates and perfect use rates for condoms exists because 1.) there are several places where user error can creep in (not putting it on early enough, not pulling out properly, not using extra lubrication when conditions are dry because that can cause breakage, etc.) and 2.) it’s not uncommon for people to have sex while drunk/otherwise altered and to just not think about it.

    Some people (especially women) find that condoms irritate them physically — even non-latex ones. Some men can’t maintain an erection while wearing one.

    And even with perfect use a 2% yearly chance of pregnancy is not as effective as it looks. That comes out to a 33% chance of having at least one unintended pregnancy if condoms are your sole method of contraception over 20 years. In contrast, perfect use of the Pill over that time would yield a 6% chance of an unintended pregnancy, and with a more reliable hormonal method like Implanon you’re looking at 0.1% over 20 years.

  • CLEVEN

    Pro-life is just code for anti-sex (especially for women). If you view it under that lense all their policy choices make sense. The pro-life movement and all the rhetoric surrounding it, was invented by rich white men seeking (yet another) reason to alienate (mostly poor) white voters from the democratic party. It’s no coincidence that Roe v. Wade happened when the Republic party was reorganizing and rebranding itself.

  • Mike M

    Neither contraceptive access nor the strictness of abortion laws are primary determining factors of abortion rates. The driving factors are socio-economic. If you look at similar countries in Africa, though, those that have engaged in large “safe sex” campaigns have not had any success in reducing abortion rates, while countries with a more “conservative” approach have (the same goes for STD rates, by the way). And while the quote that you provide points to western Europe as the place with the laxest abortion laws, that’s not entirely clear. European countries generally have stricter laws regarding late term abortion than the we have in the United States. And Planned Parenthood, NARAL, et al., have fought tooth and nail against enacting the kinds of safety, sanitation, and licensing regulations that are the European standard in the United States.

    Plus, all around, you’re attacking a caricature of the pro-life movement. The pro-life movement isn’t, otherwise, politically monolithic. Few of its involved members are lobbying against TANF.

    Most people on both sides of the issue are earnest about their positions, and both sides have a number of opportunistic charlatans in their ranks. That’s the way life goes. It, unfortunately, seems that you haven’t quite learned the lesson that we all should see in your experience… it’s OK to stake out your own position… there’s no need to adopt a label and conform to its strictest elements in every way.

    I would call myself pro-life, but that doesn’t mean that I hold the complete worldview of Randall Terry. I’ll work with pro-life organizations to get the word out to women about social and charitable services that help poor women who are pregnant or have children. I won’t be participating when another group is standing outside of a restaurant with a bloody fetus picture. And if I find common purpose on something with someone who’s “pro-choice,” I’ll work with them. I don’t support the HHS birth control mandate for reasons unrelated to abortion, but I don’t think that contraception should be banned and I do think that we need to provide social assistance when necessary for women to raise healthy kids.

    It’s time to break out of the binary pro-life vs. pro-choice, Republican vs. Democrat mindset. When we adopt it, we distort our own thinking and paint ludicrous caricatures of others.

    • http://www.facebook.com/catherine.gearhart Catherine Vanderbilt Gearhart

      Texas has a VERY conservative position on sex education (abstinence only) and I have watched as our STD rates have become the worst in the nation. We also have the third highest rate of teen pregnancy as well as the highest rate of REPEAT teen pregnancy. I think that says it all with regard to conservative “safe sex” campaigns.

    • Niemand

      If you look at similar countries in Africa, though, those that have
      engaged in large “safe sex” campaigns have not had any success in
      reducing abortion rates, while countries with a more “conservative”
      approach have (the same goes for STD rates, by the way).

      Could you provide a citation? Also, you should take into account that the Catholic church, among others, has had an active anti-safe sex campaign going on in Africa, telling people that condoms don’t stop HIV and similar. (See, for example, here So there are potential confounders and simply saying that safe sex campaigns didn’t work (if you can demonstrate that claim) is potentially misleading.

  • Honour

    thank you for articulating the last piece so well………
    If pro-life advocates feel so strongly about those babies before they are born, let’s see them start to care about those children AFTER they are born.

  • Kevin

    There is a great deal that is demonstraly false or utterly incredible about this post. Since the majority of posters will shut down and scream “ANTI-SCIENCE!!!!!!!!!!!” if anyone challenges data they accept (ironic since the scientific method is based entirely upon testing beliefs or hypothesies against competing data), I will simply point out the big rig sized holes in the logic of this post.
    -Firstly, I’ll just go ahead and say what we’re all thinking. The blogger clearly was never a pro-lifer. The instances of a person doing a complete 180 in the period of a lunch period could pretty much be counted on one hand. Certainly people do come to believe things that are the opposite of what they believed their whole lives, but these changes almost exclusively take months or years to occur. Even when presented with irrefutable evidence (and no one other than a rabid ideologue would qualify the NYT as such…) an individual can take years to change their mind. Certainly this individual will most likely recognize the presentation of this evidence as the beginning of the change, but it again, almost never turns on a dime. So what is much more likely is that the poster reconizes that he seems more “reasonable” if he can empathize with the other side. This is no different that every single politican ever talking about “reaching across the aisle.” Unfortunately all this strategy does is embolden people who already agree with the poster, and stand out as nothing more than a cynical strategy by the poster.
    -So there will be an identical number of abortions whether abortions are legal or not? Now there is a large amount of data that shows that this claim is preposterous (ask yourself, are there more abortions in the US now or before Roe, and see Freakonomics, an excellent book that shows not only are there a greater number of abortions now, but some surprising side effects of the increase.) But, even thought the poster is comparing apples and oranges (comparing the US before and after legalization would be far superior to judging different countries, where culture is much more likely to influence behavior than laws… but who’s anti-science?) but I said I would avoid specific data, since it wouldn’t be believed on this site anyway. What I will point out is how ludicrous the arguments made here are. For example: ”
    Overturning Roe, I realized, would not make women stop having abortions. Instead, it would simply punish women who have abortions by requiring them to risk their health to do so. This is all well and good if the goal is to punish women for seeking abortions, but if the goal is to keep unborn babies from being murdered, this is extremely ineffective.” So making abortions illegal is ineffective except in that it punishes abortions…. I would really like to know, what does the poster think it means to “make something illegal?” Because it may have something to do with punishment of an action…. Hmmm….. With that bit of nonsense out of the way, let’s consider the logic of “There will be abortions no matter what… so let’s legalize abortion!!!!” Let’s see if I can come up with a counter-argument for that. Hmm…. Oh yeah! “There will will be abortions no matter what … so let’s criminalize abortion!!!” See, how that works? If there actually is no difference, why not make the laws as restrictive as possible? In fact why have any laws at all? Murder is illegal, but murders still happen! Also, let’s examine if this non-logic holds in other instances, and see if the Left’s viewpoint stays the same. How about guns? Everyone from Joe Biden, to Barak Obama, to the Justice Department has said that gun bans (and even more “Assault Weapon” bans) do nothing to decrease crime. And yet we HAVE to pass said bans? Will the poster acknowledge that he is inconsistant (or much more likely, lying) because he accepts that in one instance we should pass laws with no effect, and in another we should not? I bet not. The point is (leaving out how ridiculous this argument is at face value) that even if it were true that abortion laws have no effect on the number of abortions (it’s not), we still, as a society, pass laws for moral or ethical reasons. Even if abortions were not affected by laws about abortion, we may not want to implicitly endorse the wholesale slaughter of the unborn.
    -The only actual good point in here is the one about birth control. Obviously Pro-Lifers are trying to control women’s sex lives. Consider, when you add up all of the Federal, State, and local politicians calling for a ban on contraception, you get… 0. Certainly sounds like a bunch of control freaks… An interesting side note, President Obama’s Science Czar openly and enthusiastically endorsed adding sterilants to drinking water. Good thing these pro-life conservatives are trying to control contraception!!!
    -So I facetiously lauded the previous argument, but I can not, even jokingly say anything good about the utter nonsense that is this poster’s zygotic abortion “argument”. So according to the poster, there is no difference between a naturally occuring death and a death that results from someone’s action. Makes perfect sense, right!? So who will we start charging for murder in earthquakes, or lightning strikes, or natural causes. Because according to the poster, if consistant, pro-lifers should be just as outraged about natural menstruation of fertilized eggs as they are about pharmacuetically induced zygotic abortion. So according to the poster’s own standard, he should be rallying for laws against acts of God and natural causes. Since he is not, we can only assume he is a pro-death sociopath. …or he was using terrible non-logic to try and support a point he’s believed his whole life. One of the two….
    -Barak Obama, Pro-Life hero? I’ll admit this when the poster writes an article about how George W. Bush was a hero of litteracy. I mean he started two wars resulting in a large number of people who are disproportionately illiterate to be killed, thereby bringing up the litteracy rate for the region. Right? Yeah, I’ll be holding my breath waiting for that article…
    -Just when you thought the argument couldn’t be anymore illogical, we reach the height of inaneness. The argument about making pregnancies harder to afford is oh so asinine. a.) The poster assumes that all pro-lifers also oppose the welfare state. A great assumption, since it’s demonstrably untrue…. b.) It is accepted by every thinking person that if person a is being paid by person b, person b has at the very least some say in the condition of that payment. E.g. My employer is paying me to be a security guard, he can probably tell me not to sleep on the job. If we (as society) are paying people to merely exist, we should have some say in how that life is lived, SINCE WE’RE PAYING FOR IT!!!! Notice that 1.) no one is forcing these parasites to taxpayer money, and 2.) no one is calling for limiting the number of children of productive citizens. Therefore when the poster cites the proposed law as proof that pro-lifers are trying to control women’s sex lives, we see that he really is either a sociopath who has no qualms about being dishonest, or is a pathological liar, and simply can not help lying. 1 and 2 above PROVE that no pro-lifer wants to control the sex life of social parasite women. c.) Where are the proposed laws banning abortion procedures on not pregnant women? If the poster’s demonstrably untrue premise is correct, then there would be laws about women’s bodies. You legislate about the subject in question. So if legislators wanted to control women’s bodies, they would pass laws about women’s bodies. And yet they haven’t. There are no laws saying that an unpregnant woman can not stick a hanger into her uterus. Have fun. Go at it all day. Since the law 9or proposed law) applies only when the woman is pregnant, by rationality, and by definition, it is the pregnancy that is relevant. The poster’s idiotic “a-ha!” is the exact same as saying that pro-liers are anti property because they say you can’t put your children in a car and drive it into a lake. “Ha! You’re anti-car! You just want to control people’s cars!”…. And the real shame is education has diminished in this country so much that not only does the poster make such an idiotic argument, but so many on here actually praise that nonsense…..

  • http://www.thenerdnest.com/ Megan Anderson

    Thank you for such a well reasoned perspective.

  • Laura

    I find it somewhat offensive to insinuate that pro-lifers are against birth control and social programs to help women. Some are, some aren’t. I am pro-life. I am also pro- easy access to birth control. I am pro helping women prevent crisis pregnancies, and giving women support during and after their crisis pregnancies. I am pro-life because I believe that as humans we have a duty to stick up for the defenseless, I am also pro-life because I think the right not to be killed trumps all other rights.

    • Composer 99

      Laura,

      You may be pro- all these other things.

      Unfortunately, exceptions such as yourself notwithstanding, the self-styled “pro-life” movement, as an aggregate, isn’t. And it’s the aggregate form of the movement that has such traction in Republican-dominated state legislatures, among the “Tea Party” base, and so on.

    • tsara

      If I became pregnant and I could not get an abortion, I would kill myself. What would you advise the law and the people around me to do in this situation? Should they forcibly confine me and put me on suicide watch in a straightjacket for nine months?

    • Niemand

      Laura, who will you vote for: A “pro-life” politician who favors dismantling the social safety net and banning contraception or a “pro-choice” politician who supports expanded access to birth control, social programs to aid pregnant women and women with young children, and other social safety net programs? Because at least if you live in the US, you’re going to have to choose which is more important to you: banning abortion or helping the living to survive.

    • http://gamesgirlsgods.blogspot.com/ Feminerd

      So you’re absolutely fine with mandatory organ donations then, I take it? People with failing organs have the right not to die, even if it means taking organs from people who would rather not donate them (or at least not right now), because life trumps ‘convenience’ and bodily autonomy. Yes?

      • Niemand

        And must trump them no matter what the consequences to the donor may be, as (for example) the Halappanavar case demonstrates. For example, failure of the contralateral kidney is no excuse for not donating your kidney to someone who is failing dialysis. You might do better on dialysis and any way they’re definitely going to die, so might as well hop on the OR table yourself because the cops will drag you there otherwise. On the plus side, you have a chance to force someone else to give you their kidney later on…

  • Suzy

    I am sitting here truly shocked at my own ignorance. I became aware of the hypocrisy of the evangelical right a long time ago. I am a Christian Democrat primarily due to the fact that I strongly believe in social justice. Jesus was in the business of reaching out to the poor, marginalized, and hated and I try to be about the same kind of business. I have held on to my Pro-Life beliefs, though. No more. Thank you for providing the research-driven data to bring light to the darkness that lies at the heart of the Pro-Life movement.

  • Not a Henry Clay Compromiser

    Why not just admit it? You have forsaken true science and bought into the lies of the left. The fact that your transformation was relatively gradual makes no difference. The drop in abortion has been perhaps 10,000 out of 250,000. Your hero Obama has supported curricula to make children more sexually active and it appears morality has totally evaporated from your consciousness. 11 year olds on the pill. It is cursed to cause children to stumble, and believe me, your new friends are in the tick of that sin. Here in Philadelphia, Kermit Gosslein (I hate to call him Doctor) did precisely what Obama advocates – extreme abortion that amounts to infanticide. It is grotesque. He was convicted of murder while Obama roams free. My dear, you were duped, but not my those who know science and who know life, but by those who have chosen to replace God with themselves. If GOD aborts a pregnancy, that is HIS right. It is never YOURS. Murder is not our prerogative, but God will indeed judge the world and it will be the largest number of people who EVER perished at one time. I suspect that you no longer hold to the other truths of the gospel either. How very sad.

    • Conuly

      Let me clear things up – are you TRYING to convince people that anti-abortion activists have no manners, or is that just lagniappe?

    • Richter_DL

      You sound a bit like a broken record, my dear. Since when is this about Obama? And what is “true science”, anyway? I doubt you understand how science works. They don’t teach that in Madrassas.

      Your fire-and-brimstone rhetoric just reveals you for the hate-fueled, intolerant, arrogant person you are, my dear.

    • tsara

      Science: I do not think it means what you think it means.

      “Science is a method for developing true beliefs about the world. It works by developing hypotheses about the world, creating experiments that would allow the hypotheses to be tested, and running the experiments. By having people publish their falsifiable predictions and their experimental results, science protects itself from individuals deceiving themselves or others.”

      (source: http://wiki.lesswrong.com/wiki/Science)

      As a bonus:

      “[Scientific] Evidence for a given theory is the observation of an event that is more likely to occur if the theory is true than if it is false. (The event would be evidence against the theory if it is less likely if the theory is true.)”
      (source: http://wiki.lesswrong.com/wiki/Evidence)

      “Rational evidence is the broadest possible sense of evidence, the Bayesian sense. Rational evidence about a hypothesis H is any observation which has a different likelihood depending on whether H holds in reality or not.”
      (source: http://wiki.lesswrong.com/wiki/Rational_evidence)

      “Occam’s razor is a principle commonly stated as “Entities must not be multiplied beyond necessity”. When several theories are able to explain the same observations, Occam’s razor suggests the simpler one is preferable. [...] Occam’s razor is necessitated by the conjunction rule of probability theory: the conjunction A and B is necessarily less (or equally, in the case of logical equivalence) probable than the A alone; every detail you tack onto your story drives the probability down.”
      (source: http://wiki.lesswrong.com/wiki/Occam%27s_razor)

      “Faith is willfully committing (whether explicitly or implicitly) to a relationship (or relationships) of trust, loyalty, hope, and/or belief (a) beyond perceived rational warrant, (b) against perceived predominance of counter evidence of untrustworthiness, and/or (c) against all possible future counter-evidence that may undermine currently perceived evidence of trustworthiness.”
      (source: http://www.patheos.com/blogs/camelswithhammers/2013/04/why-i-define-faith-philosophically-as-inherently-irrational-and-immoral/)

      The point:

      The hypothesis “Roughly two thousand years ago, somebody died (complete cessation of electrical activation in the brain) and was reanimated (and walking an talking and apparently still himself) three days later” (which I will use as shorthand for “the truths of the gospel” in your post; apologies if you don’t believe that) has some very weak anecdotal evidence (which counts as rational or legal evidence) on the ‘yes’ side and a level of prior improbability (i.e., the complete lack of any scientific evidence suggesting that there’s even a maybe sorta kinda way something like that could have happened) that is almost absurdly high on the ‘no’ side.
      That quick and dirty Bayesian demi-analysis puts the probability that we live in a world where the above hypothesis is true at, oh, some probability indistinguishable from zero.

      (I didn’t include any mechanisms for reanimation in the calculation: note Occam’s razor above.)
      Faith in the truth of “the gospel” is not rational or scientific: the evidence we have does not support the belief, and we do not currently have any means of improving the quality of our evidence.

  • Niemand

    A propos various claims about celibacy, it appears that actually, abstinence CAN kill you.

  • Richter_DL

    And since it is possible to gain pluripotent stem cells, which can become embryonic cells, which then can develop into embryos, from bone marrow, what about those cells – those clones? Because those cells can, given the right circumstances, become full human beings. Does bone marrow have personhood right now, too? What does that say about chemotherapy? What does that say about amputations, or people working in high-risk environments that carry a higher risk of leukemia? Can they be tried for manslaughter too?

    Giving a cell personhood rights because of what it might be is idiotic. What *is* should count, not what *might be*. Everything else produces ridiculous and highly dangerous results. Like a ban on cancer treatment.

    Of course, in case the movement is actually honest. 8-ball says it’s not. ;)

  • Richter_DL

    And since it is possible to gain pluripotent stem cells, which can become embryonic cells, which then can develop into embryos, from bone marrow, what about those cells – those clones? Because those cells can, given the right circumstances, become full human beings. Does bone marrow have personhood right now, too? What does that say about chemotherapy? What does that say about amputations, or people working in high-risk environments that carry a higher risk of leukemia? Can they be tried for manslaughter too?

    Giving a cell personhood rights because of what it might be is idiotic. What *is* should count, not what *might be*. Everything else produces ridiculous and highly dangerous results. Like a ban on cancer treatment.

    Of course, in case the movement is actually honest. 8-ball says it’s not. ;)

  • Agoodwife

    Great article.

    I am constantly surrounded by conervatives who simply refuse to listen to my point of view…hell, the university I attend will pay for students to take a bus to a pro life march but wouldn’t let us havea pro-choice speaker on school grounds. Yet, I pay the same amount of tuition as the pro life students.

    There was a comment earlier about family planning being as effective as birth control pills – I’m not sure what rock people are living under but I don’t have the time to lay out a map of my ovulation cycle. I don’t plan my sex life with my husband and I certainly don’t need the added stress of trying to make sure I have every calculation perfect. I have no idea how long my husbands sperm are able to survive, and I don’t want to guess. My life doesn’t revolve around waiting to find out if I’m pregnant. I cannot feasibly have a child right now, but I love my husband and feel I should be able to have sex with him as I please, without children being in the equation.

  • http://www.facebook.com/tara.hillson2 Tara NoEnbridge Hillson

    That was a great read and well written. Kudos to you. I come from a woman who did not believe in abortions. 5 kids later, 4 ended up in foster homes. 2 were adopted young but the other two, well life has been rough for them. She wasn’t abusive, she just buckled under the pressure. She fell deeper and deeper into her depression, left alone to care for 5 kids in poverty. My childhood was rough too but I managed to let it go and move on. My brothers not so much. I am pro-choice because I have seen first hand what can happen to kids when parents are unable to provide proper care and love to children. I believe that bringing an unwanted pregnancy to term and raising a child when your not able to provide for it, resulting in a “unhappy” childhood is a far worse crime then abortion.

  • GracieW

    newsflash for you Libby…birth control fails. If you are engaging in risky sex and relying on birth control and it fails (which it does more often than people think) abortion becomes the back up. I was on Yaz and took it faithfully every day at the same time. I was not on antibiotics. There was no reason for it to fail and yet it did and I became pregnant. Thank God I knew my son’s life mattered. Today he is a happy 6 year old boy.

    You sound a lot like Hitler. He didn’t think some humans were worthy of “personhood” either. Same with the white slave owners. You find yourself in some interesting company there.

    The biological truth is that species reproduce after their own kind. So when a woman reproduces and is pregnant she is not pregnant with another species but her own. She is carrying another human. That human, by relationship, is her own child. That human is biologically living. So we have a living human child (the woman’s child) growing in her womb. This fetus isn’t some other species or a non-living entity. Birth may be the point where the child separates from the mother’s body but the child didn’t begin to exist at birth. That child existed for 9 months prior and was the SAME organism now being born.

    Where do you think babies come from? Do you think it is permissible to kill a child 10 minutes before birth since the child is inside the mother’s body?

    • tsara

      …really? Godwin so early? Newsflash for you: Hitler didn’t believe in abortion, either.

      The truth is that if someone does not want a fetus inside of them, abortion is self-defense.

      Take my case (for which I have not yet been able to get an answer): I don’t have sex. I don’t want to have sex. I am unlikely to ever consent to sex. I also have some psychological issues such that if I did become pregnant, and abortion was not an option, I would kill myself (and I’m not alone. Do you think that the women who went to Kermitt Gosnell didn’t know that they were taking their lives into their hands?).

      What would you recommend the law and the people around me do if I became pregnant?

    • Niemand

      So, Grace, are you celebrating the Salvadoran supreme court decision to murder Beatriz and remove all hope of survival from others in similar situations? Do you believe in forced organ donation? Do you think that chemotherapy is murder? Cancer has unique DNA too, you know.

      And as tsara pointed out, Hitler was profoundly anti-choice. Like you, he believed in forcing women to have children whether they wanted to or not. Congratulations on your allies.