Hinduism and Abortion

Yesterday we had a comment from our friend Doug asking for more information about Hinduism’s moral stances:

Can you do a post on Hinduism’s stance on relavent moral issues (at least in America) like abortion, same-sex marriage, contraception, etc.? From your older posts, it sounds like Hindu morality is rather subjective and varies from person to person. If that’s case, what’s the point? Is Hinduism even concerned with/have a stance on these issues?

The first thing to address is whether Hinduism has a morality. The trouble here is that the word “Hindu” is covering an enormous range of schools, practices, beliefs, etc. When you say “Do Christians believe that abortion is never okay?” Well, you have to then ask, which Christians? Unitarian Universalists are likely to be pro-choice where Catholics are likely to not be. And it’s easy to say that your brand of Christianity is the only one that counts, the only one that speaks for all of Christianity, but someone from another branch is busy saying the same thing.

So individual Hindu branches and schools may teach slightly different beliefs or even sometimes vastly different beliefs. It’s all going to depend on who your guru is or what lineage your tradition comes from. But it’s a religion thousands of years older than Christianity, so yeah, of course it’s got some thoughts on moral and ethical dilemmas of humanity!

In general Hindus tend to be very life affirming. Peace and non-violence are huge parts of Hinduism. The principle of “Ahimsa” which is “non-harm” is absolutely central to Hindu teachings. However, at the same time, the scriptures have examples of righteous and necessary war.

 ***

Because of the very high reverence for life, abortion is not considered okay by Hindus. In cases where it is necessary to save the life of the mother, it can be utilized.

Because of the law of karma, that baby has a role to play in this world. To kill a fetus before it has the chance to experience and work on its karma is a problem.

The human embodiment is the most sacred possible birth. It is only human beings who have the self-awareness to attain enlightenment. The stories say that souls wait for very long periods of time to experience the human embodiment. Hindus avoid taking that away from anyone.

However, the mother’s life is also precious. It is said that though abortion is wrong, it is worse for a child to kill his mother.

Again, this is my understanding of it from my background and history. I was taught to be “pro-life”, as it is called, but I have found in the course of living that I could not be rigid in that. I myself will never and would never consider getting an abortion for any reason, but at the same time I found that I could not judge my friends who have done it. They have their lives and karma to go through and I can’t decide their choices for them. I still respect them and know they did the best they could. One friend prayed for the soul of her child to have a good future embodiment.

***

Our friend Agni offered an article from Hinduism Today to address Hindu ethics when it comes to medical debates. As he points out, this is an article from the point of view of a Shivite school, so that is something to keep in mind.

How Hindu Dharma Addresses 25 Controversial Medical Issues Frequently Encountered by Physicians.

The entire article from Hinduism Today is very good and you should read the whole thing, but here is the section on abortion:

Hindu scripture and tradition clearly prohibit abortion, except to save the life of the mother. It is considered an act against rita (universal order) and ahimsa (noninjury). In the words of Swami Omkarananda, “Imagine, through millions of abortions around the world, day in and day out, how many wonderful scientific and spiritual geniuses—doctors, men of excellence of every kind, sages, saints, benefactors of mankind, builders of a better culture and civilization—are destroyed even before they can take a breath of fresh air here on Earth!” Hindu ethics also do not justify aborting a fetus because of actual or potential deformity or mental retardation, for each birth, normal or not, is revered as having a divine purpose to be understood, not manipulated. Nevertheless, abortion is performed today by Hindus in India and elsewhere—particularly selective termination of female fetuses following ultrasound examination. Professor Crawford called that practice “a perverted use of modern science, a scarcely concealed form of female infanticide.” Sivaya Subramuniyaswami summarized in sutra 34 of Living with Siva, “Followers know abortion is, by Vedic injunction, a sinful act against dharma fraught with karmic repercussions. Scripture only allows it to prevent the mother’s death, for it is a greater sin for a child to kill the mother.” “In the modern context,” Swami Tejomayananda advised, “attention must be focused on the prevention of pregnancy by educating and creating awareness in the parents.” Abortion, should it occur, creates a karma to be faced in the future, but is not regarded as an unforgivable “sin.” A penance could mitigate the karma, such as adopting a baby who might otherwise have been aborted if no home was provided.

The issue of using abortion in order to murder girl babies is a cultural problem and not a result of the religion that has equal love and respect for both male and female. We are all God.

Here are some more resources to take a look at:

Wikipedia adds:

According to the Hinduism Today website, “Several Hindu institutions have shared their positions on abortion recently. The Brahma Kumaris World Spiritual University does not take a formal unchanging political or religious stance on the issue of abortion. They advise that each case requires unique consideration… The Brahma Kumaris view the body as a physical vehicle for the immortal soul, and therefore the issue is not “pro-life” or “anti-life” but a choice between the amount of suffering caused to the souls of the parents and child in either course, abortion or motherhood” and later states that “ISKCON calls the 1.3 million abortions done in America last year “a kind of doublethink,” whereby people deny the status of humanity to the fetus…According to Vedic literature an eternal individual soul inhabits the body of every living creature…The soul enters the womb at the time of conception, and this makes the fetus a living, individual person.” -“Hindus In America Speak out on Abortion Issues”Hinduism Today. 7 September 1985. Retrieved 14 September 2010.

Nothing I say here should be taken to mean that I will judge or condemn anyone who does have an abortion. Yes, I think it’s the wrong choice 99% of the time. But the beauty of Hinduism is that it is never too late. Maybe it was a mistake and if so, your baby will find another embodiment eventually. You will work through whatever karmic consequences there are. If I am wrong and it is not a mistake, then that’s fine too. My decisions about my life, my body, and my karma are not affected by yours. That is my take on it. I’m sure not all Hindus will agree!

***

This issue came up for Hindus recently when a young Indian mother died in an Irish Catholic hospital that refused to abort though it would be the only way to save her life and the child was not going to live. This is an excellent example of when Hinduism does accept abortion. Savita Halappanavar was 31 years old and only 17 weeks pregnant when she died. The hospital refused to take her family’s religious beliefs into consideration and imposed theirs instead.

Abortion Refusal Death: The Guardian

Huffington Post

After Savita Halappanavar’s death, the brutal irony of ‘pro-life’ is exposed

{Featured Image for this post from http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/indian-womans-death-in-ireland-sparks-debate-over-abortion/1/229242.html}

About Ambaa

Ambaa is an American woman of European ancestry who is also a practicing Hindu. She is fascinated with questions of philosophy, culture, and the meaning of life. Join her in the journey to explore how a non-Indian convert to Hinduism experiences her religion.

  • Doug

    I think it’s cool that the Hindu stance is the same as the Catholic stance (even if it’s for slightly different reasons)! Anti-abortion except if the mother’s life is in danger. I do have to disagree with your view that even though you believe it’s wrong, it’s okay if someone else has an abortion. True that we shouldn’t hate on someone who’s had an abortion but if you could do or say something that could save the life of the baby, wouldn’t you? Is it okay for a mother to kill her child as long as the mother isn’t you?

    • Ambaa

      I want you to keep in mind whenever you read my blog that it is not necessarily “The Hindu Stance.” When you see ambiguity a lot of times that’s not Hinduism, that’s me.

      I happen to have a very hard time with declaring any kind of absolutes.

      I feel deeply that I am responsible for my actions and others are responsible for theirs. I’ve expressed concern to friends, but sometimes I know that what they need is my support, not my judgment. They can sort it out with God.

      Even though Hinduism is against abortion, from a legal perspective, I still vote for pro-choice. I feel that options do need to be available to women. If it is completely forbidden, what happens to the young mother who will die?

      There are cases of justified murder accounted for in our laws. Cases of self defense. The law allows for that. I am not in the situation these women are in and I will not make their choices for them. But when I make my choice to never have an abortion, I do that from a place of CHOICE but not COERCION. Because I have the option. And I choose life. I think it’s more meaningful when we have the options of how to handle a situation we find ourselves in and we are not forced by someone else’s rules to do a particular thing but choose right anyway.

      But I also just don’t think I can know what’s right for someone else.

      That’s me. I can’t stand making judgment calls on anyone else’s situation but my own.

      • Doug

        Less than 1% of abortions are for dire reasons (rape, incest, mother’s life). The rest are just used as contraception. Is the holocaust of 44 million babies since Roe v Wade worth a woman’s “choice?” How is it even her choice, God is the only one that has the right to give and take life? Don’t you agree that abortions should ATLEAST be illegal for non-dire reasons? What gives a baby born premature a greater right to life than a baby aborted days before it is due (perfectly legal)?

        • Ambaa

          There are some very difficult situations that are not rape or incest. To say that women are just blithely skipping along and aborting babies at a whim is absurd. I’m a woman and I know many women. Abortions are a very hard decision for a woman to come to. If there are a very remote few who don’t take that responsibility seriously, then we should work on educating and working with them to understand the gravity of the responsibility that having sex is. But I will always side with the women who are already here living and breathing and doing their best over those who have not yet drawn a breath. To say that 99% of women getting abortions are doing so as contraception is just absolutely untrue.

          • Jdog

            Of course abortion is no light matter and women are for the most part not namby-pamby about having one, but degree of difficulty does not make a wrong a right. All I really want to say is 99% is probably about right for being contraception; Ambaa is just reading contraception as “willy-nilly contraception”. It is what it is whatever the reasons. UNplanned or UNwanted pregnancy.

            Also: “But it’s a religion thousands of years older than Christianity” – Christianity is rooted in Judaism, so not quite.

          • Ambaa

            It is older than Christianity by thousands of years. Judaism and Christianity are not the same religion. But yes, the roots of Christianity are almost, but not quite, as old as Hinduism. That isn’t to argue over whose is older and maybe more important or whatever, just to point out that OF COURSE we have a position on issues. It’s not like it’s some twenty-year old religion, barely even formed!

          • JoFro

            There are women going for their 5th and 6th abortions in the US. Believe me, education is not the issue here. They are using abortion as their contraception.

          • Ambaa

            I’m sad to hear that. I think we should put more energy and effort into education so women understand better ways of not getting pregnant.

    • First Lady

      The last paragraph of the article is so incorrect and inaccurate. If it is so far from the truth about this Irish case, how can I treat this article’s information with respect in any area it discusses.

      • Ambaa

        Sorry, which are you referring to? My post or one of the articles that I posted links to?

        If you mean my post, I did my best to summarize the case as I understood it. What is your understanding of the facts of this case?

  • http://koenraadelst.blogpost.com Koenraad Elst

    Abortion is one of the major sins according to the Dharma scriptures. As a religious doctrine, Hinduism explicitly forbids it except to save the mother’s life. However, there is a caste angle to this. The effective authority lies not with scripture (a preserve of the Brahmin caste) but with the autonomous decisions of the caste council. In some castes, therefore, practices forbidden by scripture have a long history. Thus, sati (widows’ self-immolation) was forbidden by Brahmin scriptures but practised by Kshatriyas since prehistory and revered by the masses. Similarly, some agricultural castes practised pre- and postnatal abortion, esp. female infanticide, for ages. So, the present problem of female feticide follows an existing Hindu template. Ultrasound diagnosis also gives Muslims, to whom their scripture explicitly forbids postnatal female infanticide, the opportunity to practise prenatal female feticide, as abortion in the first 4 months is allowed to them. In spite of a few cases of doctors who get caught while administering sex-selective abortions, people will continue to find ways of practising these. The only way to stop this is to convince people that daughters are of equal worth. Andhere, truth to tell, Hindu tradition needs some correction. The prenatal ritual to ensure that the fetus is male, while only a ritual and by no means murderous, bespeaks a preference for male
    children.

    • Ambaa

      Yes, I’m not sure how to go about showing that women have equal worth to men. Or making that true within society. That’s going to be a long battle, I think.

      It breaks my heart to know that some people do not value girls just because they are girls. I’m a girl and I think girls are amazing and wonderful creatures! Definitely just as much God as boys are. I always wonder how such people think the human race can continue if girls are not valued :(

  • navin1

    The difference between Hindu ethics and the abrahamic ethics is the lack of eternal damnation. Without eternal damnation, ethics is a process of learning rather than a ends oriented choice. Also, our relationship to each other is not of other but of self. Thus, in advaita, the soul of your enemy is your own soul which is one with the totality of being. The soul being eternal can not be harmed, thus, even in the setting of temporal harm, it is not a permanent injury. On the other hand, the choices we make affect our process of realization and thus “good” moral choices uplift us to realization. Hence, killing is what Arjuna and Rama must do. It is not the killing itself that is wrong, it is the reasoning of the killer (detached, renunced, deontology…) that decides the moral /karmic implications/results. hariaum

    • Ambaa

      Agreed! Ethic is a process of learning for sure!

    • JoFro

      Eternal damnation? Have you ever heard of Confession?

  • Pingback: Hinduism and Abortion – Patheos – Patheos (blog) | Christian World News

  • Ray Kaye

    One has to remember that most religions are steeped in old ways and old teachings, and those doctrines are difficult to break with. Some staunch religions will say one thing, like upholding their pro-creation status on the one hand, yet keeping a good supply of rubbers and the morning after pill, handy.

    Part of the topic touched upon same-sex marriage. First, I’ve got to say this, I don’t know if deep down inside people and the media do this on purpose, but they love to call the issue “same-sex marriage or gay marriage”. It’s neither. The issue is marriage equality. There is no gay marriage and there is no straight marriage. One day, this will come to pass.

    I’ve talked with many of my fellow Hindu folks about homosexuality, and the majority have told me in quiet terms that basically, it’s not condoned, but unlike the Westboro Baptist Church, the Hindu folks will never be seen holding ” Vishnu Hates Fags” signs. They don’t seem to have that type of outward hostility in their hearts and more over, they simply have more important things to do with their time.

    While I’ve watched and have witnessed more than a few Hindu folks do some underhanded and hurtful things, I’ve not encountered outward group bigotry and hostility on the scale of other religions on this subject. Kind of like Ambaa says, we all have to do our own Karma.

    Personally, looking at the entire world as a whole at the moment, we sure could stand a whole lot more loving. I’m not for abortion as a birth control method, but on the other hand, I as a man, simply do not have any right to tell a woman what to do with her body. There is no right answer on this topic, no matter how loud we sccream, no matter how blue in the face we become. I surely do not want to go back to the days of abortion by coat-hanger. Even while abortion is legal, we’ve already seen a number of babies dropped from the womb into toilets, found in lakes or buried in shallow graves, when any firehouse or hospital would have gladly accepted these babies.

    Homosexuals, or LGBT people reportedly make up less than 10% of the population, so I can’t see how roughly 90% of the rest of us can feel threatened, as if the whole earth population will suddenly perish somehow.

    Like my guru says, center yourself, find yourself, then get over yourself.

    • Ambaa

      Thank you for that information! I do want to do a post on marriage equality too and this will help.

      I really agree that the world desperately needs more love.

    • Doug

      I hate this notion of “it’s the woman’s body so she can do what she wants.” After conception, it’s no longer just her body, there is another body inside her. A body with no rights who we must stand up for. I also hate the notion that men cannot speak of abortion because they can’t have babies. As long as men irresponsibly impregnable women, as long as men (boyfriends, husbands, other family members) pressure women into abortion, and as long as baby boys can be murdered in the womb, this is not just a “women’s issue.” I don’t understand you and Ambaa’s stance at all. How can you accept that the fetus is a human life and also think a woman’s “choice” is worth more than that. That like saying “rape is bad and I’d never do it but it’s okay if other people do because it’s their choice.” “I think it’s wrong to bomb a preschool but it’s okay for others to do it because it is their choice.” No offense, but to me, this is a worse stance than saying the fetus is just a “clump of cells” and being straight up pro abortion.

      • Doug

        *impregnate

      • Ray Kaye

        Um… your first issue is that… you “hate” to begin with…that’s why there is so much hostility on this subject between people. I certainly do not hate your position, I respect it, but your presentation leave much to be desired.

        I’m certainly not going to speak for Ambaa, nor anyone else. However, you seem to be trying to justify your position by both scrambling the argument and putting words in peoples’ mouths, in order to prove your point as valid. I never spoke about ” after conception”, at all, so you have absolutely no idea how I feel about “after conception”.

        I certainly did not say a thing about A FATHER not being able to speak about the issue of impregnation. In order to prove your point, you gleaned the “father” and “impregnation” idea out of thin air as if it were something I argued. If neither you nor I impregnated the woman, then we have no right to tell her what to do. Please get my stance correctly.

        “… as long as baby boys can be murdered in the womb…” Ah, I’ve seen that shock and awe tactic before, but it doesn’t work with me. The unborn fetus is not a “baby-boy” and therefore, can not be “murdered.”

        You go on to put words into our mouths with this statement, ” … I don’t understand you and Ambaa’s stance at all. How can you accept that the fetus is a human life and also think a woman’s “choice” is worth more than that. ” I accept that the fetus is a POTENTIAL human life. As I’ve said, there is no right side to this issue, what is correct for one, is not correct for another, ergo, the ever continuing back and forth. None of us can draw the line between this issue, so we take an individual stance based upon our best knowledge that we have. Unless you are willing to adopt the unborn if it comes to term, and feed all the little one’s, then quietly do so. But I fail to see many on your side of the issue willing to step up to put their money where their very vocal mouths are.

        “…That like saying “rape is bad and I’d never do it but it’s okay if other people do because it’s their choice.” “I think it’s wrong to bomb a preschool but it’s okay for others to do it because it is their choice.” No offense, but to me, this is a worse stance than saying the fetus is just a “clump of cells” and being straight up pro abortion….”

        Well, your actual words betray your obvious intentions to offend, by putting words on print as if we said them, then having a ghost argument against us. I could easily do the same thing to you, spit roast you and have you served for dinner, but I don’t need such silly tactics. You may have some legitimate feelings about this subject, but your skill in bringing them forward is lacking and rather juvenile, to say the least.

        • Doug

          First of all, I wasn’t talking about specifically what you said but the notions you and Ambaa implied but since you accuse me of “putting words in your mouth” I’ll focus on what you actually just said.

          “I accept that the fetus is a POTENTIAL human life.”
          Ok if by “potential” you mean that it could be a life but you can’t know for sure, consider this scenario: I am a construction worker and I am told to blow up a home. I don’t know if there are people in the home or if it’s lifeless but I’m gonna blow it up anyway. There could be life in there but I’m not sure so I’ll just blow it up because it’s more convenient for me.

          Now do you see anything wrong with that and can’t you see how that situation can be compared to abortion? Science has proven that the fetus is living, has a heartbeat, and may even feel pain, denying the life of the fetus is foolishness.

          And damn right I have legitamate feelings on this. This is the largest genocide in human history with over 44,000,000 babies slaughtered and counting. This number is just in the 40 years of legal abortion in America alone. It is a Holocaust not only condoned but funded by the government. Even Roe, the women whose case made abortion legal in US is now prolife, saying she never intended for her lawsuit to make legalize abortion for any reason.

          To be lukewarm or not care about abortion is the worst stance you can take.

          • Ray Kaye

            Any possible chance that you’ll be adopting and taking care of any one of these “babies”?

        • 5w_haul

          i reckon doug absolutely right on this matter
          you can’t destroy a life for no apparent reasons just because you wanted to enjoy a momentary pleasure and created a life now don’t want to take responsibility.
          “People tend to forget their duties but remember their rights.” – Indira Gandhi

          • Ray Kaye

            What we really need to do is hold all those masturbator’s accountable for killing all the baby swimmers! Swimmers have rights too!!

          • JoFro

            Ray Kaye – proof you can’t come up with a logical response!

            Sperm and eggs is not a distinct human person. The fusion of the two creates a distinct human person with its own distinct DNA that is neither its mother nor its father.

            Unless you can show me that a sperm is a living distinct human person with its own very unique DNA or the egg is a distinct human person with its own distinct human DNA, you don’t have an argument against Doug or 5w_haul.

    • Jdog

      “Even while abortion is legal, we’ve already seen a number of babies dropped from the womb into toilets, found in lakes or buried in shallow graves, when any firehouse or hospital would have gladly accepted these babies.” – yup, no one is really helped by abortion’s legalization. Response: improved access…No, that will not help. You know that, and already said any hospital would be willing to take them. And for all who suggest we cannot tell others what to do/no absolutes/relativism, do you realize what you’re saying? That would allow murder, racism, sexism, whatever anybody wants, because it might be “right for them”. Your gender does not matter, you can still tell someone when it is wrong to kill. A man can tell a woman not to kill her baby, who in being a baby capable of being killed, without therefore depriving the woman of life or her body later, is not a part of her body but a separate individual.

  • Pingback: Hinduism and Abortion – Patheos (blog) | Christian World News

  • Doug

    Ray,

    On the adoption thing, I’m not at that point in my life but I’m actually open to the idea yeah.

    And that stupid comment at the end, no it isn’t a human life until conception, the fact that you tried to play that card only shows that you’ve given up.

    • Ray Kaye

      That’s what I thought, all talk but no show. It’s like those folks standing outside the prison walls with candles, protesting capital punishment, but not wanting to take home a death-row inmate, themselves.

      If you don’t like an abortion, then please, by all means, don’t have any. It’s legal, get over it, or change the law.

      It’s only human life at conception, in your mind. Other’s don’t see it that way, however, your mind is slammed shut, so one can not argue with that, you are correct.

      • Doug

        What are you talking about “all talk but no show?” I said I would be willing to adopt in the future, did you expect just get up and and head to the nearest foster home right after you typed that?

        And it’s not just in my mind, it’s scientific fact. Just like gravity isn’t a reality only “in my mind.” Those who deny that are the ones with their minds slammed shut because admitting the truth would be admitting that they murdered their own child which would cause some major cognitive dissonance. Abortion is murder. Period. That’s the only point I’m trying to make here. You can justify it anyway you want but supporting abortion or “choice” is supporting murder.

        • Ray Kaye

          So, you are all adamant about your stance for your position, but you don’t wish to do anything about it, just yet. Yes, I expected you to live up to your convictions. You don’t have to adopt yet, but you could volunteer to council. Are you doing that? Or do you arm-chair quarterback and simply offer your opinions?

          There are still folks out there claiming to have scientific proof that the USA never landed on the moon, too. Even some who still believe that the earth is flat. However, because there are so many people on both sides of the issue, we have the SCOTUS who have decided what the law will be on this, and I stand by them as the supreme law of the land and their decision based upon fetus viability.

          You can claim that legal execution is murder, but the law says it’s capital punishment. You and I may not like it, but that’s the law. Case closed.

          You know, I shake my head every time I come to a three-way stop in a certain neighbourhood near me. How utterly stupid to have this obscure stop, when hardly anyone is ever at the stop when I get there. Yet, in other areas where traffic and speeders have near misses and an occasional tip over, there is no stop at all. But, in the end, I obey the law, it is what it is, and despite the obvious silliness, I go on with my life.

          If you really believe in what you say you do, then put up or shut up. Take on the law, or take up counselling. Until you can personally change things, a woman has a right to do what she wants, within the given law at the time.

          • Doug

            The government’s law will never change God’s law. We follow authorities whether the government, bosses, teachers, or parents unless their rules contradict those set forth by God.

            I participate yearly in the March For Life in DC where over half a million people march to defend life. Seen it on the news? Very minimally because the liberal media dominates the US. As a Man of God, I also offer my prayers.

            The Supreme Court judged Roe v Wade in a time when public opinion on the issue was a lot more uneducated but now the tables have turned and the majority is pro life. There are currently 6 Catholic justices on the SCOTUS and if they are faithful to Church teaching they will overturn Roe v Wade the first chance they get.

            Capital Punishment (which I am against) is still against the guilty and not the innocent, not to mention babies (like abortion).

            And if you want scientific proof you don’t have to ask nutjob conspiracy theorists, just ask your local University’s biology professor.

            Abortion is a horrible travesty, but fortunately it’s days of legality are numbered. Everyday more and more people come to their senses and realize that their choice ends when another life begins. I pray that one day you may too brother…

          • Ambaa

            Something very interesting I found out recently. Did you know that in places where abortion becomes legal, 15-20 years later there is a tremendous drop in the crime rate? Turns out that unwanted babies don’t tend to have happy childhoods and often grow up to be criminals.

            Just a new layer to it that I was fascinated to find out.

            Your politics are your own. Do whatever you like. I will vote pro-choice because that is important to me as a woman and for the sake of the many women I know and care about.

            I pray for understanding and guidance but I do not think I know all the answers as of yet.

          • 5w_haul

            @ray kaye well mate your comments are getting rubbish by every post you are writing heaps of things without holding any logic.
            this post is about hindu stance on abortion not for battle rubbish people argue about pro life and pro choice. common sense should prevail but The Funny Thing About Common Sense Is That It’s Not Very Common.

          • Ambaa

            True, the post is about the Hindu position on abortion. But that seems to be fairly clear, so I guess we may as well fight and scream at each other about our personal stands :) Same as on Facebook, I don’t expect anyone’s mind is going to be changed.

          • JoFro

            Ambaa – ah yes! Lets take it up a notch then – lets go and shoot dead all those poor people in the projects committing all those crimes! Abort and help bring down crime rates! Solve poverty, by killing the poor!

            By the way, it will be interesting to see what the stats are with the black community in America. They have the highest abortion rates in the country and they seem to also have the highest criminal rates in the country

        • Pratheesh

          I think you are looking into this issue from the angle of religion.My opinion is abortion should not be used as a method for birth control but it is acceptable in other circumstances.Religion can give any stupid rules and laws to follow but it is up to the humans to analyze it before adopting those blindly.
          And what happened in Ireland is totally condemnable and i give a damn to such stupid religious decrees.

      • Ambaa

        That’s where I am. If you don’t believe in abortion, don’t get one. Let other people deal with their lives and their choices.

        But I think Christians feel like their God is going to be disappointed with them if they don’t prevent every single perceived sin in everyone else, which is what tends to make most Christians so irritating.

        • Doug

          That philosophy may be fine with other things but with this issue it isn’t. Christians don’t fight for life because abortion is a sin. Everyone sins and the only sins you can control are your own. We feel the need to take action because abortion is taking the life of a child. It is more than just a personal sin between the sinner and God, it affects someone else.

          You can’t predict the quality of someone’s life just based on who they are born to. You can’t just say that this baby will be born to impoverished family, therefore it’ll become a criminal, therefore it is okay to kill it.

          This is more than politics, it’s a matter of life and death. If you deny the fact that the fetus is a human life like Ray, then I see more of a reason to be pro choice. But Ambaa, I just don’t see how you can believe that the fetus has a soul and abortion is wrong yet still think women should have the “right” to kill their child. Why should they have this same right after the baby has exited the womb? The womb should be the safest place in the world, and if a baby isnt safe there, where are they safe?

        • Jdog

          Yeah the truth and morality can be irritating, you know, not letting you have your own way, even when it kills people. — “Did you know that in places where abortion becomes legal, 15-20 years later there is a tremendous drop in the crime rate? Turns out that unwanted babies don’t tend to have happy childhoods and often grow up to be criminals.” I doubt your sources, are we talking U.S. as a whole. I wonder how many other factors there are…no single fact brings about that change in crime rate. Let’s not be naive. and so should we kill all criminals? We need to fight for the children being aborted, because you don’t let them fight for themselves–talk Ahimsa. Christians unlike self-aggrandizing “equality” peddlers fight for justice.

          • Ambaa

            Darn it, now I can’t find the documentary where I watched that. I’ll update when I think of it. NYC’s dramatic reduction in crime was studied and another country also. The only factor in both cases that could account for the amount of the reduction was the timing of abortion becoming legal. It’s a fascinating watch. I just thought it was an interesting tidbit.

            This has nothing to do with me getting my own way. I will never have an abortion. But I do think it is important that I CHOOSE not to. As I said before, our law allows for times when murder is appropriate. Abortion is also sometimes appropriate. It is not me who decides when that is.

            I do not make choices for other people. I’m reluctant to make any law that encroaches on people’s abilities to make their own choices, even when it comes to killing.

            That’s just how I am. So you can vote and choose in your way and I will vote and choose in my way.

        • Pratheesh

          Amba,

          The problem with Christians and Muslims are, they are looking into each and every issue through the prism of religion and rationality has no place in their thought process.

          • Doug

            If you truly had a conviction for God ever aspect of life should be looked at through the “prism of religion.” Your faith should define you, not just be a hobby or simple world view. Believing and following the Church’s teachings does not mean abandoning rational thought, if you actually knew something about what the Church teaches you would know that it is incredibly rational.

          • Ambaa

            Mmmm. Indeed.

  • Ray Kaye

    Doug says:
    April 12, 2013 at 11:24 pm
    The government’s law will never change God’s law. We follow authorities whether the government, bosses, teachers, or parents unless their rules contradict those set forth by God.

    I participate yearly in the March For Life in DC where over half a million people march to defend life. Seen it on the news? Very minimally because the liberal media dominates the US. As a Man of God, I also offer my prayers.

    The Supreme Court judged Roe v Wade in a time when public opinion on the issue was a lot more uneducated but now the tables have turned and the majority is pro life. There are currently 6 Catholic justices on the SCOTUS and if they are faithful to Church teaching they will overturn Roe v Wade the first chance they get.

    Capital Punishment (which I am against) is still against the guilty and not the innocent, not to mention babies (like abortion).

    And if you want scientific proof you don’t have to ask nutjob conspiracy theorists, just ask your local University’s biology professor.

    Abortion is a horrible travesty, but fortunately it’s days of legality are numbered. Everyday more and more people come to their senses and realize that their choice ends when another life begins. I pray that one day you may too brother…

    ******************************************************************

    I love that argument about God’s law. But here in the United States, we have secular laws. So despite everything good or bad, we have no Sharia Laws that govern us.

    I can see your deep desire for religious laws. The SCOTUS can be as religious as it wants to, but it must rule in a secular manner and not in a Catholic, Hindu, Muslim or any other religious manner.

    While a majority may or may not be the talk of the day as far as being pro-life, a clear majority are for abortions. As far as scientific proof goes, for every scientist you find, I’ll find two, as well. That tactic has been tried over and over, and so far Roe V Wade stands as the law of the land.

    I can’t wait until the the LGBT debate is raised here. :)

    • Doug

      I’m not saying that the US should all religious based laws, I’m saying that the government’s definition or opinion doesn’t change whether something is right or wrong.

      The majority is pro life now, look it up yourself.

      • Ray Kaye

        Well, you sure act like the US should be religious laws…I get the distinct impression that everyone must come under your particular umbrella of religious outlook or be damned. What if some folks don’t believe in God, must they be damned because you believe?

        A majority of people in the US were once for slavery and a majority was once against a woman’s right to vote and to own property. Thank goodness for the SCOTUS and the Constitution. Some folks just have to educate themselves about where majority/minority mob rule votes stops and civil rights begins.

        If the SCOTUS wanted to wipe out Roe V Wade, they had their ample opportunity, it’s not going to happen, prayers or no prayers.

        • Doug

          Incase you didn’t know, the whole concept of democracy is majority/minority. The majority once supported slavery, which is why it was illegal, but then they came to their senses and realized how wrong it was and the majority flipped. The same is happening now, the majority was once pro abortion but now they are realizing the horrible truth about abortion and the majority is flipping again. It has nothing to do with the fact that some people don’t believe in God, it has to do with murdering babies and that fact that it is wrong. And if you don’t think butchering babies is wrong, then idk what to tell you… learn humanity.

          • Ray Kaye

            Doug says:
            April 13, 2013 at 8:43 pm
            “….Incase you didn’t know, the whole concept of democracy is majority/minority…..”

            *** Ah, no. The whole concept is about freedom with the law. You really don’t seem to grasp civil rights, at all.

            “…The majority once supported slavery, which is why it was illegal, but then they came to their senses and realized how wrong it was and the majority flipped….”

            *** They “flipped” because after the SCOTUS finally decided to uphold the Constitution. Civil rights are not supposed to be at the behest of any majority or minority, and certainly not by a vote by either.

            “…. The same is happening now, the majority was once pro abortion but now they are realizing the horrible truth about abortion and the majority is flipping again….”

            *** And our legislators can indeed be bent by the will of the people, and also by lobbyists. As you can already see that many legislator’s are quaking in their boots right now, despite the force of the anti-gun folks.

            “…. It has nothing to do with the fact that some people don’t believe in God, it has to do with murdering babies and that fact that it is wrong. And if you don’t think butchering babies is wrong, then idk what to tell you… learn humanity….”

            *** As Ronald Ray-gun once said, ” Ah… there you go again” with them murdering babies song. I tell you, I’m so ashamed of myself! But, I’d be more ashamed to stick my nose in the business of a woman by gripping her uterus and telling her what to do with it. Learn civil rights and the Constitution…..

          • JoFro

            Doug – don’t dwell on this so called “pro-life” crowd – they are pro-life in name only! If you look at the stats, this so called pro-life crowd claims the name but ask them if they will seek to make abortion illegal or if a woman has the right to do whatever the hell she wants to do with her body, the answer is a big huge as “NO” for the first question and a big fat “YES” to the second question!

            Hardly pro-life

  • Ray Kaye

    5w_haul says:
    April 13, 2013 at 2:01 am
    @ray kaye well mate your comments are getting rubbish by every post you are writing heaps of things without holding any logic.
    this post is about hindu stance on abortion not for battle rubbish people argue about pro life and pro choice. common sense should prevail but The Funny Thing About Common Sense Is That It’s Not Very Common.

    ***************************************************************

    I may be your brother, but I am surely not your mate. My comments are only rubbish to those who have no grasp of common sense, you are quite correct. And, talking about common sense, this post talked briefly about Christianity from the very start, and your friend brought tried to imply that the Hindu stance mirrored the Catholic position. So, all of a sudden, then, since your ideas don’t mesh with my ideas, it’s not ok to mention Christianity? You blokes need to learn about the Constitution and rights.

    But, perhaps you could allude to these “heaps of things without any logic” that you spoke of but forgot or neglected to back up………

  • Ray Kaye

    Doug says: “… If you deny the fact that the fetus is a human life like Ray, then I see more of a reason to be pro choice…..”

    So, what is it, a baby or a fetus, already? You seem to quiver between the two, just like a bicycle rider, who uses the road when it’s convenient, then changes to being a pedestrian and using the sidewalk, if the traffic begins to build.

    Try as you may, you can’t kill anything that has not been born, and you surely can not murder the unborn. The SCOTUS, in it’s infinite wisdom, even chose 22 weeks instead of the 24 weeks of viability, proposed early on. So, at least they’ve accepted your rational compromise and gave you that gift. But, you are still not happy.

    Those 44 million murders of yours, anyone serve any jail time? Anyone arrested? Ah, it must be the law. And we all know that politicians are the law givers, so I guess politics are indeed involved, especially at voting time!

    • Doug

      Incase you didn’t know, the whole concept of democracy is majority/minority. The majority once supported slavery, which is why it was illegal, but then they came to their senses and realized how wrong it was and the majority flipped. The same is happening now, the majority was once pro abortion but now they are realizing the horrible truth about abortion and the majority is flipping again. It has nothing to do with the fact that some people don’t believe in God, it has to do with murdering babies and that fact that it is wrong. And if you don’t think butchering babies is wrong, then idk what to tell you… learn humanity.

      Just because it is a fetus doesn’t mean it isn’t a baby. They are interchangeable. That’s like saying “Oh that isn’t a person, that’s a human!”

      Seeing that you seem to worship the SCOTUS and human law, here’s some law for you: If someone were to murder a pregnant woman, they would be charged with double homicide. In that case the fetus is a human yet in abortion it is just a “clump of cells.” Sounds like a contradiction to me…

    • Doug

      Just because it is a fetus doesn’t mean it isn’t a baby. They are interchangeable. That’s like saying “Oh that isn’t a person, that’s a human!”

      Seeing that you seem to worship the SCOTUS and human law, here’s some law for you: If someone were to murder a pregnant woman, they would be charged with double homicide. In that case the fetus is a human yet in abortion it is just a “clump of cells.” Sounds like a contradiction to me…

  • Doug

    sorry for the multiple comments, my computer is screwing with me… haha :)

  • http://nil ramanan.pg

    Hinduism is not a religion per se. It has in it the residual rituals of tribes preceeding Rg Veda; It has in it some vedic rituals and practices and some have been abandoned ( viz: Fire sacrifice continues but has abandoned the ‘horse sacrifice’ and meat-eating; and has embraced Jain/Buddist ‘Ahimsa’ and vegitarian food ). For every vegitarian there is a non-vegitarian . The term Hindu was coined by Persians to indicate people living east of Indus(Sindhu) river ( Persian language subsitutes “ha” for “ca/sa”. ) Historically Hidu is a geographical term. All the practices including that of Indo-Iranian speakers, which is a subsect of Indo-european languge, is included. Ther is no single god acceptable to all. There is no single religious head acceptable to all. It is hard to find uniform opinion.There are as many opinions as there are practices.

    • Ambaa

      Very true. Hinduism was a name given to a wide variety of beliefs and systems. It is very difficult to say “This is Hindu/This is not Hindu”!

  • Ray Kaye

    Doug says:
    April 13, 2013 at 8:49 pm
    “….Just because it is a fetus doesn’t mean it isn’t a baby. They are interchangeable….”

    *** Really? Try walking a fetus down the street. So, if you put a baby in a stroller for a walk down the street, is it still a fetus, since you claim it’s “interchangeable?

    “…. That’s like saying “Oh that isn’t a person, that’s a human!….”

    *** No, it’s not, at all. You are not making sense.

    “….Seeing that you seem to worship the SCOTUS and human law….”

    *** I RESPECT the law, there is the difference. I gave you an example of that, already. While I may not like a law, doesn’t mean I don’t obey it, or try to change it. And you bet, I love our system of laws. It prevents all sorts of irrational moon-bats from passing laws based upon invisible spaghetti monsters and ayatollahs and sorcerers. The USA may have it’s faults, but thank goodness I live here.

    “…. If someone were to murder a pregnant woman, they would be charged with double homicide.

    *** The law isn’t looking at the fetus as a human, it is looking at it as an unborn fetus. More on, it is giving weight in the favour of extra prosecution and punishment for the act. ” The murder of pregnant women represents a relatively recently studied class of murder. Limited statistics are available as there is no reliable system in place yet to track such cases. Whether pregnancy is a causal factor is hard to determine.”

    And: …

    “…The Unborn Victims of Violence Act, passed in 2004, defines a fetus as a “child in uterus” and a person as being a legal crime victim “if a fetal injury or death occurs during the commission of a federal violent crime. In the U.S., 36 states have laws with more harsh penalties if the victim is murdered while pregnant. Some of these laws defining the fetus as being a person, “for the purpose of criminal prosecution of the offender” (National Conference of State Legislatures, 2008). Currently in the North Carolina Senate, a bill called the SB 353 Unborn Victims of Violence Act is being considered for legislation that would create a separate criminal offense for the death of a fetus when the mother is murdered. The North Carolina Coalition Against Domestic Violence does not support this law for numerous reasons including failure to see violence against the mother as the cause of the fetal death.”

    As you can clearly see, not everyone agrees on this subject.

    “….In that case the fetus is a human yet in abortion it is just a “clump of cells.” Sounds like a contradiction to me…”

    *** I think the conflict stems from your choice of terms and your use of “shock-jock” words that you try to desperately impose on everyone in order to convince them of your stance, you know like “murdering” and that sort of thing.

    Even though all living things are made up of “clumps of cells”, the operative word here is “viable”, which you fail to see and use, as the law and the rest of us define it. So, I really think that the “contradiction” lies with you, not me.

    You may or may not approve of my use of wiki, but they had a real concise, simple way of putting it. :)

    • 5w_haul

      you have no idea what ”mate” means lol !

      • Ray Kaye

        mate1 [meyt] Show IPA noun, verb, mat·ed, mat·ing.
        noun
        1.
        a partner in marriage; spouse.
        2.
        one member of a pair of mated animals.
        3.
        one of a pair: I can’t find the mate to this glove.
        4.
        a counterpart.
        5.
        an associate; fellow worker; comrade; partner (often used in combination): classmate; roommate.

        Attesting to the fact that……. you and I are none of those.

        BTW, anything to contribute to the forum, topic, answers, replies?

  • Ray Kaye

    Doug says:
    April 13, 2013 at 8:49 pm
    “……..Incase you didn’t know, the whole concept of democracy is majority/minority….”

    *** No, not exactly. Especially when civil and equal rights are concerned.

    “….. The majority once supported slavery, which is why it was illegal, but then they came to their senses and realized how wrong it was and the majority flipped. The same is happening now, the majority was once pro abortion but now they are realizing the horrible truth about abortion and the majority is flipping again….”

    *** No again. If the majority of people decided that they no longer supported slavery, we wouldn’t have fought a bloody civil war over it. The end of slavery was not a result of the vote of the people. The only reason it’s accepted today is as a result of the law, not any vote or will of the people.

    “… It has nothing to do with the fact that some people don’t believe in God, it has to do with murdering babies and that fact that it is wrong. And if you don’t think butchering babies is wrong, then idk what to tell you… learn humanity….”

    *** The law does not support your conclusions nor your daffynitions. You’re so angey that you can’t see straight, no matter how many times the facts are presented.

  • Hanan

    >However, the mother’s life is also precious. It is said that though abortion is wrong, it is worse for a child to kill his mother.

    That is pretty much Judaism stance as well.

    • Ambaa

      Very interesting that so many world religions have a similar stance!

    • Pratheesh

      If abortion has to be conducted to save mothers life,then it would be the most logical stand to be taken.Once she recovers her health,she can again conceive and give birth to a baby.but if people are trying to save the child instead of mother and end up losing both,in that case what your stupid religion would suggest.
      In my opinion on some matters religious views should kept away.

      • Doug

        I don’t think any religion denies abortion if it was to save the mother’s life. Educate yourself before you voice your opinion. Otherwise you just look stupid.

        • Pratheesh

          Then why the doctors in Ireland denied to conduct abortion to save the life of Savita.The reason they had given is that their religious views wont allow them to do so and end up in losing both mother and the kid.just google it and find more about this matter and then reply me and tell me who is the real stupid.a person who is rational in taking decision or those who follows religious views blindly.

          One more thing i want to ask you Doug,In Savita’s case whether your God is happy that Doctors did not conduct abortion even though both the mother and unborn kid died.

          • Doug

            I’m not sure of the specifics of the Irish law but I can tell you with certainty that if the doctors knew that Savita life could be saved with abortion, then Catholic teaching permits it. The doctors made a mistake and it was not in line with Cathoic beliefs. Ambaa misrepresents and biases her summary of the case by saying “The hospital refused to take her family’s religious beliefs into consideration and imposed theirs instead.” Maybe they “imposed” their personal beliefs or that of Irish law but it wasn’t the beliefs of the Catholic Church.

  • Doug

    Ray, there is no point arguing with you, you are blinded. Forgive me, but I question your Hinduism, you do not come across as a man of faith to me…

    Veritas valebit…

    • Ambaa

      Please do not presume to know the faith and religious devotion of others. You cannot decide that someone is not religious because he doesn’t behave the way that you do. We understand and express our faith in different ways.

    • Ray Kaye

      Doug says:
      April 15, 2013 at 8:44 am

      “…Ray, there is no point arguing with you, you are blinded. Forgive me, but I question your Hinduism, you do not come across as a man of faith to me…”

      *** You may or may not have seen a statue of “Justice”, it’s the one with a robed female figure holding a scale of justice, and she is blinded by a blind-fold. This is the best way, in my opinion, to render a decision with no prejudice. We weigh as much as possible, but in the end, someone is pleased, someone not so. So, your refernce to me being blind…. I take it as a compliment, as I try to be as objective as possible. So thank you.

      As far as my Hinduism and faith goes, you are correct, I am not a man of faith…. I am a man of truth. I’m glad that you brought the word “faith” into it. I was originally raised under the “faith” of the Catholic brand. At that time, to question God often resulted in bodily injury for most children. Now, I can question all that I want, without fear of lakes of fire and being turned into a pillar of salt. To me personally, having faith merely means that I can lie down in ignorance and everything will be ok. Instead, I choose to shed darkenss and ignorance in search of the light of truth. I always quest and thirst for it. We do that in the Temple, as we pass our hands over the flame and bring it’s essence to our eyes. Why just do it symbolically? Why use “faith” as just a shield, hoping by chance, it will someohow save us from what we don’t know? Seek what you do not know.

      Being a mere mortal, I can now understand how Arjuna must have felt in being torn between ” his duty” and his inner feelings of guilt. And being mere mortals, we have decisions to make on this earth which may not exactly coincide with one another. I love children and I love adults as well. I also know that we, you, and me, make mistakes. All of us are on this planet-plane seeking one thing—pleasure. This abortion thing most certainly and seemingly, disagrees with an pleasure. I understand that.

      I hesitate to bring forth this next paragraph, because it takes time to deeply ponder. But it is worth taking the time to strain the concept through the whole of Hindu scripture, in order to understand it:

      After the shootings in Connecticut and in Colorado, I asked many people, priests of the Hindu religion, many gurus, learned scholars and authors…..why. Could they explain why?
      The same answer came from across the globe—- karma. I will leave that with you, to ponder.

      However, on this earth, I will continue to ask for guidance, but for now, the decison rests with the woman. There comes a point where men and women simply need to let God and karma work through these things, like it or not. In the end, as I’ve said, if you don’t want an abortion, don’t have one.

      • JoFro

        If you don’t like murder, don’t murder! Don’t take away my right to murder!
        If you don’t like theft, don’t steal! Don’t take away my right to steal!
        If you don’t like lies, don’t lie! Don’t take away my right to lie!
        If you don’t like war, don’t go to war! Don’t take away my right to start and participate in wars!
        If you don’t like rape, don’t rape! Don’t take away my right to rape!
        If you don’t like (add whatever you want), don’t (whatever the hell you added)! Don’t take away my right to (whatever the hell you want to include)

        • 5w_haul

          its a bogus idea of respecting one’s choice irrespective of right or wrong

          • Ray Kaye

            JoFro says: “..its a bogus idea of respecting one’s choice irrespective of right or wrong…”

            *** Indeed, that’s why we have laws in our nation.

            ” Don’t take away my right to murder!”

            *** Murder is not a right, therefore that makes no sense.

            ” Don’t take away my right to steal! *** Ditto…
            ” Don’t take away my right to lie! *** Ditto…
            ” Don’t take away my right to start and participate in wars! ” *** Individuals have no rights to declare a war, but government may decide whether you participate in it or not.

            ” Don’t take away my right to rape! ***No one has a right to rape.

            ” If you don’t like (add whatever you want), don’t (whatever the hell you added)! Don’t take away my right to (whatever the hell you want to include)”

            *** Your examples so far have been…. dismantled.

    • Pratheesh

      Doug,

      FYI, Hinduism is a collection of several belief systems which includes monotheism,polytheism,Tantrik,Yogic and even atheism.so you cant question anybody’s Hinduism as it allows an individual to find his own path to attain Moksha.One of the revered saint of Hindus,Rishi Charvaka had started atheism long back well before Europe had actually started it.I hope you got the point.

      • Doug

        Yeah I know. When I speak about Hinduism I’m referring to mainstream Hinduism not the plethora of other religions that still call themselves “Hinduism”.

        • Pratheesh

          Still you did not get the idea of Hinduism.there is nothing like mainstream Hinduism.You should really study about Hinduism to find it.You can see people who believe in a single God.ex:Lord Krishna or Lord Shiva.you can see people believe in both.

  • JoFro

    Unitarian Universalists are not Christian! If they are Christian, we would have to include Muslims and Hindus as Christians as well! A more better example would have been Episcopalians – yeah yeah, many are no different to UUs but until their church officially changes its doctrine, we can include them as Christians despite there being scant proof of it!

  • JoFro

    This issue came up for Hindus very recently when a young Indian mother died in an Irish Catholic hospital that refused to abort though it would be the only way to save her life and the child was not going to live. This is an excellent example of when Hinduism does accept abortion. Savita Halappanavar was 31 years old and only 17 weeks pregnant when she died. The hospital refused to take her family’s religious beliefs into consideration and imposed theirs instead.

    Imposed their on instead? Do you have any idea what the Church teaches on abortion? Double Jeopardy – both the life of the mother and the child is absolutely important. Everything must be done to save both their lives.

    Savita didn’t go to the hospital to get an abortion and if the hospital didn’t do all it could to save the lives of both mother and child, they went against Catholic teaching as well. Also, this hospital has previously induced the baby when cases like Savita have come up before there. There is also the other aspect that has not been mentioned – Savita’s death may have been due to resistant bacteria strain – the e-coli strain she was suffering from was a particularly strain that is more resistant to antibiotics compared to other strains of the virus.

    If you are going to comment about the Savita case, try reading up on Patheos’ Get Religion blog – they’ve dealt with the way the media has covered that sad case and the even sadder case where her death is now being used to bring out the butchering of even more babies by trying to change Ireland’s abortion laws.

    • 5w_haul

      indians don’t get e-coli infection. i reckon her cervix was open and hospital didn’t follow protocol nurse and obs. was primary culprit.

      • Ray Kaye

        5w_haul says:
        April 16, 2013 at 12:38 pm
        “…its a bogus idea of respecting one’s choice irrespective of right or wrong,” Sorry I forgot to give credit where proper credit was due. My apology for my editing error.

  • Doug

    JoFro,

    I am in full agreement with you in all your comments.

    Fight for life and stand for truth brother!

    • Pratheesh

      If your religion is against abortion and you people are following it,let it be.but when trying to impose those rules on others who have a different view would be the real cause of contention.If an atheist wants to do abortion,whatever be the reason is even as a method of birth control(though i am not supportive),they have the right to do so.

      • Ambaa

        Exactly!

        • Doug

          That logic is sound with other issues but not this one. That’s comparable to saying it is okay for Adam Lanza to shoot down a classroom of elementary school children because he doesn’t believe killing kids is wrong. I guess civilized human beings shouldn’t impose their belief that killing children is wrong because that restricts Adam Lanza’s “rights.”

          • Pratheesh

            What Adam Lanza had done is wrong as his action had affected so many families which has no direct or indirect relation with him.and also it had caused several pain to others.now tell me how you can compare this incident with a person going for abortion because that individual’s action wont affect the society at all.
            you are trying to compare two different topics just to justify your religious views.

            About killing people,how you can justify the crusades which had resulted in numerous deaths.how can you justify the inquisition by Catholics just to spread their religion in the state of GOA(INDIA) from 1500 to 1800 which had resulted in the killings of so many people who were not interested in Catholicism.
            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goa_Inquisition
            So tell me all these killings are right as per your God or your religion.

  • Sarah
  • Doug

    Ray, your “dismantling” of JoFro’s was quite amusing considering that his comment was sarcastic. I’d imagine you’d understand sarcasm considering you use it a lot, or perhaps you simply choose to understand it when it suits you?

    • Ray Kaye

      What I find amusing Doug, is your inability to make any semblance of any debate or retort, using any logic on the topic. Other than weak attempts to equate Adam Lanza’s rights to a woman’s personal decision, you seem to have no case whatsoever.

      For the life of me, I can’t understand why a sane person would equate driving bullets into adults and school children and a woman’s right to choose, in the first place. Only a person on the losing end of the debate would try so hard to pick at straws that absolutely make no sense.

      • Doug

        It doesn’t make sense to you because you don’t want it to make sense.

        A woman has as much of a “right” to abort her baby as Adam Lanza did to slaughter those school children.

        • Ray Kaye

          Please explain to us how a whacked out, mentally unstable lunatic equates with a pregnant woman?

          • Doug

            Both have just as much a right to kill children: none. No person has the right to take the life of another.

          • Ambaa

            Except sometimes when they do. As I said before, our law does allow for cases of justified homicide.

  • Pratheesh

    What ever be the stand of religions in this issue,i would prefer individuals should be allowed to decide whether to go for abortion or not.If that person does not give importance to what religion says,then what is the problem for those who are projecting themselves as the guardians of religion.

    • Ray Kaye

      One would hope that someone’s religious convictions would serve as a guide before the process of making a child came to fruition, in the first place. But, we are a human and we all know what humans so, despite what the religious leaders or the Good books say. But that’s the beauty of karma, no matter what you do, you always end up settling up “the bill”, now or later.

      Some religions, however, feel that they must go out and conquer the world, and teach/force their way and condemn others who do not live up to their religious expectations. Some do this, all the while playing shuffle the coconuts, to see where they can hide their pedo-priests. But no matter, this isn’t part of official church teachings and therefore not condoned by the church, per se.

  • Doug

    Ambaa, yes but the law should never justify murder of innocent people, let alone babies. Also, certain homicides may be justified by law but not by God.

    Pratheesh, obviously an abortion doesn’t nearly affect “society” like the Sandy Hook shooting but that wasn’t the point of the comparison. An abortion still hurts people: first and foremost the baby, but also it has been proven that women who recieve abortions become psychologically damaged which becomes evident as they grow older or have other children and long for the one that could’ve been…

    Moving on, the crusades and inquisitions took place in a dark and regrettable period in Church history in which her religious mission was lost in political power. The Church can err in her actions, as she is made up of humans, but she is infallible in her teachings and doctrines. The Crusades/Inquisitions were the faults of men, they were not condoned or based off of Church teaching. If you can bash the Church for those wrongs then why can’t I bash Hinduism for the atrocities of the caste system, a system which I understand is political/social too but was actually backed by the doctrine of karma. And don’t act like Hindus haven’t killed plenty of Christians over history too… They even martyred St. Thomas, one of Jesus’s 12 Apostles, by lancing him on a stone as he prayed.

    But we’re getting off topic… so yeah.

    • 5w_haul

      what historical evidence you have that indians killed thomas
      oral traditions and act of thomas provide weak and unreliable evidence. so don’t speculate

    • 5w_haul

      what historical evidence you have that indians killed thomas
      oral traditions and act of thomas provide weak and unreliable evidence and even written centuries later and Christians even don’t include Gospel of Thomas and Gnostic literature . so don’t speculate

    • Pratheesh

      Even catholic church is not agreeing to the concept that Saint Thomas had come to India and there is no proof for the same.So that statement has no value and i would request you to provide me some concrete evidence of it.The story of Saint Thomas had come to India is a cleverly weaved one to proselytize.And regarding caste system I don’t support that and even one want to criticize Hinduism for it, i wont object as i believe in one’s right to criticize.

  • Ray Kaye

    Doug says:

    “…..But we’re getting off topic… so yeah……”

    *** But……. so long as you’re the one going off topic, …..then so it’s ok.

    “……the law should never justify murder of innocent people, let alone babies….”

    *** Your biggest issue is not only hatred, but one of trying to blend murder of people and that of legal abortion. According to you, women like Tina Turner, Joan Collins, Gloria Allred, etc., are on par with Adam Lanza. Given that, your fanatical position is understandable.

    “… Also, certain homicides may be justified by law but not by God…..”

    *** Hello, we covered this before, we live in the USA where the laws are secular and not in Iran where women and children are beaten or splashed with acid for merely going to school. I want no part of that here. ( Please also recall the karma parts covered. )

    “….Moving on, the crusades and inquisitions took place in a dark and regrettable period in Church history in which her religious mission was lost in political power. The Church can err in her actions, as she is made up of humans, but she is infallible in her teachings and doctrines. The Crusades/Inquisitions were the faults of men, they were not condoned or based off of Church teaching…..”

    *** You’re really serious, aren’t you? You really believe all of that? Exactly how many crusades were there before anyone took any responsibility? The standards were not only carried out on the orders of the religious nut-cases, they were condoned, as well. And, after you came back from lobbing off the limbs and the heads of those who wouldn’t conform to standards you would impose, all you need do is kneel down and ask for forgiveness and voila, all is forgiven in the eyes of the church. So, please read your history before acting the fool.

    “… If you can bash the Church for those wrongs then why can’t I bash Hinduism for the atrocities of the caste system, a system which I understand is political/social too but was actually backed by the doctrine of karma…..”

    *** Your upbringing, did it ever include something akin to this: ” Doug, two wrongs do not make a right!”? So, you feel you can simply justify tit for tat, based up your, , logic? Sounds pretty much like playground logic to me.

    ” …….. And don’t act like Hindus haven’t killed plenty of Christians over history too… They even martyred St. Thomas, one of Jesus’s 12 Apostles, by lancing him on a stone as he prayed…..”

    *** Yes, and Hindus jumped on their horses ( or was it water buffaloes?), rode hither and yon, slaughtering westerners by the cart-loads, if they didn’t convert to Hinduism. They are much like that today, save for the slaughtering. Why a couple of Hindu’s were just at my door, handing out little pamphlets with Sanskrit writing and pictures of Shiva with a spear like thing, saying how much they want me to convert, or else. I didn’t want to drown in a lake of fire, nor be turned into a pillar of vibuthi, so here I am, a Hindu!

    Please, give us a break already, my sides are aching! :)

    • Doug

      Ray,

      I have a hard time discerning whether you are actually so bad at interpreting what I type or if you are intentionally twisting my words to mean what you want. Probably a mixture of both…

      Show me where/whom I have shown “hatred” towards. Show me where in the Catechism (the official, excruciatingly detailed book of all the Catholic Church’s teachings) are the Crusades in anyway condoned. True they were condoned by individuals IN the Church but not BY the Church. Yes I do believe in all that and I’m proud to profess it. The Catholic Church is made up I men who can make mistakes like any other but it is flawless and infallible in its doctrines, which are inspired by the Holy Spirit. Don’t pretend like you know my Church’s history better than me because you clearly don’t.

      I wasn’t using “two wrongs to make a right” I was pointing out that blaming the Church for the mistakes of its people is equivalent to blaming Hinduism for its mistakes.

      Yes, Hindus did martyr St. Thomas. Feel free to look up the death of St. Thomas the Apostle.

      Lastly, pedophilia in the priesthood is a despicable reality and it is shameful that the Church leadership tried to cover it up. But it is also important to note that the percentage of pedophile priests is equivalent to the percentage of pedophiles in anyother religion’s leadership or even the general public for that matter. That still doesn’t make it okay but it is still an important fact to remember before you point fingers at the Church.

      • Ray Kaye

        Doug says:
        April 19, 2013 at 8:42 am

        Ray, I have a hard time discerning whether you are actually so bad at interpreting what I type or if you are intentionally twisting my words to mean what you want. Probably a mixture of both…”

        *** No, Doug, what you have a hard time with is understanding what you say and then running from it:

        “…Show me where/whom I have shown “hatred” towards….”

        Doug says:
        April 12, 2013 at 8:42 am
        I hate this notion of “it’s the woman’s body so she can do what she wants.” After conception, it’s no longer just her body, there is another body inside her. A body with no rights who we must stand up for. I also hate the notion that men cannot speak of abortion because they can’t have babies….”

        *** Those are your words Doug. No hokus-pokus, Doug…you’re exact words. One needs to be very cautious when using the word “hate”, Doug, as it too is a four-letter word. It’s used so often that it spreads like a cancer with hardly noticing.

        “…Show me where in the Catechism (the official, excruciatingly detailed book of all the Catholic Church’s teachings) are the Crusades in any way condoned. True they were condoned by ….”

        *** Number 1, Doug, don’t pull out your religious beliefs and expect me to use them to defend your hokus-pokus. Secondly, as we’ve seen in the modern Catholic church, words can say one thing, deeds quite another. The pedo-coconut shuffle has gone on for years, under the knowing eyes of the church leaders and the faithful, so please do not pretend to give us this tripe about doctrine and official condoning.

        “…Lastly, pedophilia in the priesthood is a despicable reality and it is shameful that the Church leadership tried to cover it up….[ But it is also important to note that the percentage of pedophile priests is equivalent to the percentage of pedophiles in anyother religion’s leadership or even the general public for that matter.] That still doesn’t make it okay but it is still an important fact to remember before you point fingers at the Church….”

        *** Oh really? Please give us the documentation where ” any other religions leadership”….come to pass? As far as pointing fingers at the church goes, we have every right and every proof to do so.

        “….I wasn’t using “two wrongs to make a right” I was pointing out that blaming the Church for the mistakes of its people is equivalent to blaming Hinduism for its mistakes….”

        *** No, you weren’t Doug, you were asking, “…If you can bash the Church for those wrongs then why can’t I bash Hinduism for the atrocities of the caste system, ….”
        Quite clearly, Doug, you were trying to ask for justification and for permission to bash Hinduism. If you want to be critical about Hinduism, then do it. No need to get all “playground” on us.

  • Arjun

    ‘Yes, Hindus did martyr St. Thomas.’

    Stop spreading false properganda when not St Thomas ever came to india in the first place.This has been exposed years ago

  • Arjun

    ‘Yes, Hindus did martyr St. Thomas.’

    Stop spreading false propaganda when St Thomas never came to india in the first place.This has been exposed years ago

    The Myth of Saint Thomas and the Mylapore Shiva Temple,
    http://ishwarsharan.wordpress.com/

  • Arjun

    ‘The Crusades/Inquisitions were the faults of men, they were not condoned or based off of Church teaching. If you can bash the Church for those wrongs then why can’t I bash Hinduism for the atrocities of the caste system, a system which I understand is political/social too but was actually backed by the doctrine of karma. And don’t act like Hindus haven’t killed plenty of Christians over history too… They even martyred St. Thomas, one of Jesus’s 12 Apostles, by lancing him on a stone as he prayed.’

    Of really what atrocities of the caste system ? I can quote hate quotes directly from the bible and the history of the church all around the world killing, destroying indigenous religions and its people, putting people to slavery and so on..So show me where in hindu scriptures are the equivalent hate quotes and historical crimes as Christianity ?

  • Arjun

    shoe me the equivalent Hindu quotes to encourage this ?

    When to Stone Your Whole Family
    13:7 Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth;
    13:8 Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him:
    13:9 But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people.
    13:10 And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die; because he hath sought to thrust thee away from the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage.
    13:11 And all Israel shall hear, and fear, and shall do no more any such wickedness as this is among you.

    Psalms 79:6: “Pour out thy wrath upon the heathen that have not known thee, and upon the kingdoms that have not called upon thy name.” This is a call to God to commit genocide against persons of other faiths who are either unfamiliar with Judaism and Christianity, or who have learned and rejected these religions.

    • Doug

      Arjun,

      First of all, what gives that article on St Thomas any merit that invalidates the countless ones that affirm the historical fact that he DID go to India? It’s just the opinion of one man who probably had some bad experience at the Jesuit university he attended and now he has a grudge against Catholics. The bias in that article is incredibly obvious.

      Do I really even need to explain what’s bad about the caste system? It’s a strict social class system in which it is almost impossible to move up. The lower castes (especially the Untouchables) are treated like crap and it’s perfectly acceptable. This all supported by “karma” and that God made them born into their caste because they deserve it. Worst of all, although it is technically illegal now, it still exists in many areas of India.

      The crimes committed by “Christians” over history were committed by people who rationalized their political and social motives with Christianity but are clearly not supported by the religion.

      You need to understand that the Holy Bible is not a book but a collection of books, a library. And like in any library you will find books on history, others on laws, others poetic, others simply songs of praise, and books that are combinations of these. You should keep in mind what book you are reading to interpret it properly. Based on the passage you chose, it is evident that you don’t know/understand the concept of the Old Covenant vs the New Covenant.

      • Arjun

        ‘First of all, what gives that article on St Thomas any merit that invalidates the countless ones that affirm the historical fact that he DID go to India? ‘

        Its factual taken from various sources.So read the link because its from a book and other many sources.
        What countless ones are you talking about from the church they have all been exposed in that link Everyone knows how thye church works and its agenda of converting people..Just read the sources and try to dispute them and i will bring the some of the the researchers here to continue that debate.

        ‘The crimes committed by “Christians” over history were committed by people who rationalized their political and social motives with Christianity but are clearly not supported by the religion.’

        Well after destroying half of the world just to excuse it as a wrong interpretations is a joke when its clearly all the bible which gives the justification,

        I know the difference of the Old Covenant vs the New Covenant very well.Jesus himself says “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.”Matthew 5.17.So trying to put the blame on the Old Covenant”,or the Mosaic Covenant when Jesus had come to fulfill it is just another neat trick trying to distance oneself from the hate quotes in the bible.If thats the case then why not dump the old testament from the bible and just keep the new testament.Like i said the crimes of Christianity around the world are totally rooted in the bible .

  • surya

    ONLY the pregnant girl or woman should be able to decide on keeping the pregnancy. Men should keep away from the debate altogether. Emotional and moral blackmail of a hapless, confused and scared recent preganat girl or woman is adharma without a doubt. Souls or Atmans are in the habit of finding bodies as per the karma sidhanta, abortion is no impediment to their journey, for the rebirth system is tamper free, human abortions are just another small whiff of wind nothing more for the freely flying atman that goes on and on for several layers of rebirth janma after janma.On the other hand slapping an unwanted child on ones life will destry more than one life, child abuse, child prostitution, child murder happen more in cases of unwanted children. Planned expansion of families have less incidence of such crimes. Dont force pregnancy on an unwilling girl, it is clearly unethical.

  • Arjun

    Its just the like the fraud of everyone being a sinner even without being a sinner because of some make believe story of adam and eve sinning thus giving the birth to the beginning of the human race but still the whole human race is still in sin so it will end up in hell but yes we have a solution accept jesus and you be saved..lol

  • Doug

    Christianity in India dates back to the first century, when St. Thomas arrived in India. Did St. Thomas just disappear. There are accurate accounts of all the other Apostle’s fates but you’re telling me St. Thomas vanished? If you want I can show you bullcrap books and articles written by “experts” about Jesus himself surviving and escaping crucifixion and running away to Nepal, where his “tomb” still exists. Heck, I can even show you a book about Abraham Lincoln being a vampire hunter.

    There is so much more, deep theology to the relationship the Old and New Testaments that I’m not gonna get into on this already off topic thread. The Old Testament is essential and there’s a reason we still keep it yet don’t adhere to the majority of Mosaic law.

    What makes Original Sin any more laughable than karma? Karma says you can born into a bad family, or even a different species, because of bad deeds you made in a past life you have no knowledge or memory of…

  • Arjun

    ‘Christianity in India dates back to the first century, when St. Thomas arrived in India. Did St. Thomas just disappear. There are accurate accounts of all the other Apostle’s fates but you’re telling me St. Thomas vanished?’

    dont you get it he never came to india in the first place just like there is no proof of any Apostle either.What you want me to believe in Abraham Lincoln the vampire hunter.Actually ive seen the movie so theres your proof lol dont give me the nonsense deep theology.The bible is what the bible is a hate book which also is the root for islam who took up the ideas from christians.Its all hate with hate god figure up in the air jealous of other gods enslaving men and hating women.You can add as much theology to it as possible to cover up the crimes of christianty as you want but its not going to make any difference to me or anyone else who does know christianty and want it really represents.Just go watch Agora the movie lol

  • Arjun

    ‘What makes Original Sin any more laughable than karma? Karma says you can born into a bad family, or even a different species, because of bad deeds you made in a past life you have no knowledge or memory of…’

    karma has nothing to with sin but least your karma is your personal actions and which you deal with the reactions either in this life or millions of lifes and not some distance fairly tale of some people running naked in some garden of eden where you only have one life to believe in jesus and thats it then its straight to hell..Now with hindus we dont have to believe in karma if we dont find it logical but unlike you who has have to believe in your original sin.

  • Doug

    You know what? Think what you want and wallow in ignorance.

    I joined this thread to stand up for life, not to have my religion attacked by those who don’t know what they’re talking about nor have an interest to educate themselves.

    Abortion is wrong in all cases except to save the life of the mother. Period. God is Love. Period.

    One day we will all be resurrected and the trumpets will sound for His coming and the skies will shine with his Gliry. At the name of Jesus, every knee will bend, including those of you, Ray, Pratheesh, Ambaa, and all of Creation. Every tounge will profess the Glory of the Father, Son, and Spirit and sing His praises. This is the wonderful reality that awaits us all, whether we are prepared for it or not. Until then brother…

    • Ray Kaye

      ………. and there you have it folks………. best kneel down now and see it Doug’s way because……….to hell what anyone else thinks or believes, Doug’s religious beliefs are far superior… and the rest of us, are going to hell in a handbasket.

      Ah, the arrogance of the christian religion never ceases to amaze me. All that brotherly love stuff is left off at the side of the road, when the anger is conjured up and the true motives step into the true light where everyone can see it. Truth is, you could’t shroud it Doug. Your true nature was simply dying to get out.

      “….One day we will all be resurrected and the trumpets will sound for His coming and the skies will shine with his Gliry. At the name of Jesus, every knee will bend, including those of you, Ray, Pratheesh, Ambaa, and all of Creation. Every tounge will profess the Glory of the Father, Son, and Spirit and sing His praises. This is the wonderful reality that awaits us all, whether we are prepared for it or not…………”

      *** One nice thing about the Hindu religion is that God never dies. The second best thing is that God doesn’t have to rule by fear, on the contrary, the light is warm and loving. The third best thing is that Hindu’s don’t have a need to go out and canvas or condemn, people have a way of finding us. The fourth best thing is, Hinduism is inclusive, as opposed to being exclusive. Truth is one, paths are many, kind of thing…. not “you better kneel down…” and all of that fear mongering.

      “…Don’t pretend like you know my Church’s history better than me because you clearly don’t…..”

      *** I Just had to resurrect that little gem, Doug. I know your church’s history because I was born into it and spent many agonising years under it’s thumb. Many of my fellow students knew the force of the belt and the slap, better than the force of the lord. Under Hinduism, when one asks questions, one gets answers or at the very least, one gets steered to someone with the answer. So please, don’t profess to know my history with your church, because you clearly don’t.

      The beauty in all of this Doug, is that karma is an individual thing. Cause and effect. What you put in, you get out. And, hopefully along the way, we all learn something.

    • Arjun

      Doug, i know very well what im talking about and the fact is ive not really even started if i could bring out all the facts and deceptions of Christianity history across all denominations through history if it came down to it..

      ‘One day we will all be resurrected and the trumpets will sound for His coming and the skies will shine with his Gliry. ‘

      yes im a very big fan of zombie movies .The walking dead series is my favorite TV series but hope your fantasy dont come true in real life with a trumpet intro or we are all in big trouble lol.

    • Pratheesh

      This is the problem of you and Christians in general.I have no belief in Jesus and hence no worried about any fictitious hell also.so bending my knee is out of question at all.

      • Ray Kaye

        Personally, I have a belief in the philosophy of Jesus, however I think there are many pages missing and in it’s place, many words were placed in the mouth of Jesus that were never there.

  • Doug

    Ray,

    Maybe you do know about Church history but I’m sorry to say that you do not know the Church, more specifically you do not understand the Eucharist. If you really understood what the Eucharist, and I don’t mean just in theory, if you REALLY understood what a profound gift the Eucharist is, something no other religion or denomination can offer you, you would have never left the Catholic Church. Even if you despised everything else about the Church, even if you hated it’s teachings, the very institution, and its followers, if you really understood what the Eucharist is, you would never leave.

    • Ray Kaye

      Doug, the communion is within me, not in some wafer. I need not to search without, but from within, so please do not preach to me. Been there, done that.

      • Doug

        Well anyways Ray, although I did get a little ticked off I still enjoyed discussing with you haha. I apologize if I at any time came across as hateful, that was not my intention, but I got carried away. I promise I’m not a bad guy in person haha!

        The central message of Christianity is love, I hope that if you really were once part of the Church you were at least told that even if you weren’t shown it. However people over history and even today have twisted it, the message is still to love one another, and to love God, because He loves us.

        Let’s set aside our differences and focus on what’s the same. I think we can both agree that we are children of God and He wouldn’t want us bickering with each other in His name. :)

        • Ray Kaye

          I fully understand how you feel, so there is no need to apologize at all, but is accepted, as you wish. We all get carried away in defense of our positions and I’m sure you’re not a bad person either. You did, after all, come here because you cared.

          I’m getting away, further and further from organized religion. It seems when mankind starts out, both women and men have the best of intentions, then presidents and boards become elected and the original concept gets somehow lost in the forest somehow. The love of God and the service to God’s devotees, suddenly become love and service to just some people and not all of God’s children. And it isn’t centered on one or two religions, either. Thats why the devotion should start inside, not in any book, not in any “house of worship”. Guruji says the Temple was never intended for worship anyway, but a place to go and re-charge the human battery/spirit.

          Our differences are petty, compared to the differences we will have to individually answer for during our lifetime or at the end. You’ve had your say, I have had mine and let God decide for each of us. I have a strong feeling that God understands quite well the fallibleness of life on this earth-plane and will make good use of it in our further lessons, should we require it.

        • Ambaa

          I agree. Love is the message of both Christianity and Hinduism in their purest forms and we are all children of God.

  • Arjun

    ‘The central message of Christianity is love, I hope that if you really were once part of the Church you were at least told that even if you weren’t shown it. However people over history and even today have twisted it, the message is still to love one another, and to love God, because He loves us.’

    hehe just had to laugh at that one after destroying half of the world it was done in the name of love all along just like the nazis who also were christians were actually spreading the message of Gandhi but the message got twisted lol

    ‘Let’s set aside our differences and focus on what’s the same. I think we can both agree that we are children of God’

    well after all the child abuse cases coming out of the church everyday .I think that type of God is best kept at a distance…

    • Ray Kaye

      Yes, I can still hardly get the swastika wrapped around my religious brain, knowing that nazi’s slaughtered so many people under that symbol, stolen from the Sanatana Dharma religion.

      I understand the bitterness. Some people continue to carry torches with blinders on and the best remedy for ignorance is the light of truth. Ignorance is to be found in every religion, the steady drone following, through brainwashing, which appears to be a normality.


CLOSE | X

HIDE | X