Dialogue w Protestant on Purgatory

The following exchange took place in the combox of the video by Kenny Burchard, “Purgatory is 100% BIBLICAL!!” (Catholic Bible Highlights, 8-29-24). I provide the biblical research for this series of videos. Our Protestant friends’ words will be in blue. I cite all of them. I added a few little tidbits just for this article. I use RSV for biblical citations.

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I love the way you articulate your position, and it is easy to see your loving heart for seeking God’s Truth. As a lifelong disciple of Our Lord Jesus Christ, I have something that I would like to offer as another position to you and your followers. As you put forward your beliefs, and that of the Catholic doctrine I hear you say that we can define “the act by which we are purified” after death as “Purgatory.”

I believe that the Bible is very clear, stating in Romans 6:23, “For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.”

We do know that if we are under the blood of Christ, that He has paid out debts in full, and we can miraculously receive the Holy Spirit in this current life. Even being made into a new creation, we still must suffer the penalty of death, ending our Earthy lives. Having salvation, abiding, and being sanctified through the Holy Spirit inside of us is happening while in this life.

We actually do individually pay the penalty for sin at our death, and yet the insurmountable amount of punishment we deserve is satisfied through Jesus Himself covering over our multitudes of debt. The Holy Spirit testifies for us as sons and daughters under his blood!

The mode by which the punishment due us is dealt with is explained in scripture by “The Passed Over” in Exodus. If the blood was over the door posts, “God’s wrath passed over and saved those inside” hence “covered by the blood,” despite the sinfulness of those inside! The same goes for all those who look to Christ and abide with him. This all leads to an even more beautiful picture of Grace! The undeserved gift!!! That is the Gospel!

It is with brotherly love and a humble spirit that I say the following: Your portrayal of the Catholic position takes away from the power and beauty of what God did for us on the cross and His Grace! By saying we must still go through a painful process of burning away our sins till Jesus comes back is saying He didn’t pay our debts in full on the cross.

We actually are accused and found wanting at the moment of our death, but like you stated, we will be able to have right communion with God at that very moment! That would be impossible if we had not been purified by his Holy Spirit.

When we die, we will be outside of the limitations of time and this current physical world. Your example of John in Revelation having his lips touched by the fire is odd because he hadn’t died yet, so it is strange to apply that situation to all of us from that one moment. I agree that God does burn away our sins and for some it will be a lot more than others, if you want to title that moment “Purgatory” that is fine, but it will be the most humbling and joyful moment of our lives.

The great “White throne Judgment” is when the true evil will be dethroned and cast down, bringing about the “Second Death.” All those, not written in the book of life, are and will be awaiting that final Judgment during the “Day of the Lord.” That is when all those who chose to fully rebel against Him will be cast into the lake of fire.

If you want to call the process that God purifies us at death. “Purgatory,” that is fine with me, I guess, but like you said, it is not a place. Not only that, it is not a person. Christ is the Righteous Judge, He is the One on the throne, and He is the refining fire, but there is nothing tangible or clear that says He is still going to be purifying us after death until His second coming. That process does not continue since He technically paid it once and for all.

That passage was talking about “The Church” which is something that goes beyond all our little lifetimes and is the bridegroom of Christ. He is continuing to purify the church despite how many of us live and die. Perhaps that is why you thought it continues.

I pray this comment comes across in the right light, and I’m sure you get lots of messages that contradict your videos. I almost never have commented on videos, but felt called to share how I see sound doctrine. Keep up what you are doing, and I appreciate your loving spirit for the lost. I would be happy to discuss this further and give you far more contextual verses that Prove this case. Thank you so much,

Your brother in Christ,

Timothy

Thanks for your comment. It’s fine to make critiques. You have the right spirit, and civility and charity, and it’s great to see that. All we require here is civility and the right spirit. People can disagree all they like, provided they properly “behave.” Kenny and I are well familiar with Protestant doctrine, including in this regard. He was a pastor, with a Masters degree in theology, and I was an apologist and missionary as an evangelical, and have intensely studied apologetics and the Bible for now 43 years, including almost 23 years of full-time apologetics). So none of this is new to us. We understand the Protestant view; we simply have an honest and respectful disagreement, where it differs from the Catholic (and we would say, biblical) outlook.

I’ve often used what I call the “nutshell” argument for purgatory: we must be without sin to enter into God’s presence (Eph 5:5; Heb 12:14; Rev 21:27; 22:3, 14-15). Therefore, God must purge or wash away our sin to make us fit to be in heaven with Him (actual, infused holiness; not merely imputed or declared). All agree so far. The only disagreement is whether this “divine cleansing” takes place in an instant or is more of a process. This is merely a quantitative difference; not an essential one.

Protestants agree that sanctification in this life is a lifelong process, although (unlike us) they remove it categorically from any direct connection (alongside faith and grace) salvation itself. Be that as it may, it stands to reason that if sanctification does indeed occur after death (as it must in order for us to be sinless and fit for heaven), that it would be — by straightforward analogy —  a process there, too, and it would resemble in particulars what the Bible describes as refining and purifying processes in this life. Catholics agree that purgatory has nothing to do with determining salvation, which is already attained (everyone in purgatory is already saved). In that sense, we agree that it is non-salvific, yet necessary (just like works are in the Protestant view).

Purgatory is indicated most directly in 1 Corinthians 3:13, 15: “Each man’s work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. . . . If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.”

The Bible also often refers to this same purging process taking place before we die: the very common biblical theme of God’s chastising or purifying His people. By analogy, this shows us the same notions that lie behind the apostolic and Catholic doctrine of purgatory (methods of how God works, so to speak). When these passages are included, one can find (as I did) at least fifty biblical passages that are relevant to purgatory. Protestants can ignore, if they wish, the deuterocanonical passages (highlighted in green below), which they exclude from the biblical canon. The argument doesn’t stand or fall on them, in any event.

Scripture refers to a purging fire (in addition to 1 Corinthians 3 above): whatever “shall pass through the fire” will be made “clean” (Num 31:23); “Out of heaven he let you hear his voice, that he might discipline you; and on earth he let you see his great fire, and you heard his words out of the midst of the fire” (Dt 4:36); “we went through fire” (Ps 66:12); “For gold is tested in the fire, and acceptable men in the furnace of humiliation” (Sir 2:5); “our God is a consuming fire” (Heb 12:29); “do not be surprised at the fiery ordeal which comes upon you to prove you” (1 Pet 4:12); We also see passages about the “baptism of fire” (Mt 3:11; Mk 10:38-39; Lk 3:16; 12:50).

The Bible makes frequent use also of the metaphor of various metals being refined (in a fire): “when he has tried me, I shall come forth as gold” (Job 23:10); “thou, O God, hast tested us; thou hast tried us as silver is tried” (Ps 66:10); “The crucible is for silver, and the furnace is for gold, and the LORD tries hearts” (Prov 17:3); “I will turn my hand against you and will smelt away your dross as with lye and remove all your alloy” (Is 1:25); “I have refined you, . . . I have tried you in the furnace of affliction” (Is 48:10); “I will refine them and test them” (Jer 9:7); “I will put this third into the fire, and refine them as one refines silver, and test them as gold is tested” (Zech 13:9); “he is like a refiner’s fire, and like fullers’ soap; he will sit as a refiner and purifier of silver, and he will purify the sons of Levi, and refine them like gold and silver” (Mal 3:2-3); “Having been disciplined a little, they will receive great good, because God tested them and found them worthy of himself; [6] like gold in the furnace he tried them, . . . “ (Wis 3:5-6); “. . . your faith, more precious than gold which though perishable is tested by fire” (1 Pet 1:6-7).

God cleansing or washing us is another common biblical theme: “Wash me thoroughly from my iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin! . . . Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean” (Ps 51:2, 7); “Blows that wound cleanse away evil; strokes make clean the innermost parts” (Prov 20:30; cf. 30:12); “the Lord shall have washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion and cleansed the bloodstains of Jerusalem from its midst by a spirit of judgment and by a spirit of burning” (Is 4:4); “I will cleanse them from all the guilt of their sin against me” (Jer 33:8); “I will sprinkle clean water upon you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses” (Ezek 36:25); “cleanse them from sin and uncleanness” (Zech 13:1); “our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water” (Heb 10:22); “he was cleansed from his old sins” (2 Pet 1:9); “the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin” (1 John 1:7).

Divine “chastisement” is taught clearly in many passages: “as a man disciplines his son, the LORD your God disciplines you” (Dt 8:5); “do not despise the LORD’s discipline or be weary of his reproof,” (Prov 3:11); “I will chasten you in just measure” (Jer 30:11); “For thou didst test them as a father does in warning” (Wis 11:10); “God who tests our hearts” (1 Thess 2:4); “For the Lord disciplines him whom he loves, and chastises every son whom he receives. It is for discipline that you have to endure. God is treating you as sons; for what son is there whom his father does not discipline? . . . he disciplines us for our good, that we may share his holiness” (Heb 12:6-7, 10).

We are subject to God’s indignation or wrath, insofar as we sin: “God will bring every deed into judgment” (Ecc 12:14); “I will bear the indignation of the Lord because I have sinned against him, . . . He will bring me forth to the light” (Mic 7:9).

Purgatory is “written all over” the passages above. It all goes back to sin not being allowed in heaven. Once we get there, there is no longer mere “imputation” of righteousness. At that point it’s actual righteousness in play. Therefore, we have to transition from our present sinful life or state of being, to the sinless life we will live in heaven. So the question is: how does God bring that result about? Is it instantaneous? Zap! And we’re there! Or is it more of a process?

That’s the heart of my argument in the 50 passages: by analogy, the Bible teaches that purging of sin is a process in this life. If that’s true, then it’s plausible and reasonable to believe also that the same purging of sin in heaven is a process rather than an instantaneous “zap.” And that is the essence of purgatory. Once the analogy is understood, then all of the passages I produced are relevant to understanding (and accepting) purgatory.