2018-09-13T14:30:42-04:00

I received the following letter from a fellow Catholic and asked permission to post it and discuss the issue on this blog. He wanted to remain anonymous, and so will be known as “JS” here. His words will be in blue.
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Background: Catholic theologian Ludwig Ott provides a brief but very technical definition of Molinism (not for the faint of heart), which is my own position:

Most of the Molinists, and also St. Francis de Sales (+1622), teach a conditioned Predestination (ad gloriam tantum), that is, post and propter praevisa merita. According to them, God by His scientia media [middle knowledge], sees beforehand how men would freely react to various orders of grace. In the light of this knowledge He chooses, according to His free pleasure a fixed and definite order of grace. Now by His scientia visionis, He knows infallibly in advance what use the individual man will make of the grace bestowed on him. He elects for eternal bliss those who by virtue of their foreseen merits perseveringly cooperate with grace, while He determines for eternal punishment of hell, those who, on account of their foreseen demerits, deny their cooperation. The ordo intentionis and the ordo executionis coincide (grace-glory; grace-glory). (Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, Rockford, IL: TAN Books, 1974; originally 1952, 242-245)

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I noticed on your web site, regarding the paradox of predestination and free will, you seem to lean in the direction of Molinism. 

Correct.

I was wondering what bases- scriptural, logical, traditional- your understanding of Molinism rests on. 

As for the logical basis, I’ll simply appeal back to Ott’s description of the position above, and I’ll interact with your critique below. I’d be happy to discuss further anything you find in those which you would like to talk about. As one would expect for such a highly abstract hypothesis, there is not much direct biblical indication. But one very interesting passage I am aware of is Matthew 11:21,23 (RSV):

Woe to you, Chorazin! woe to you, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes . . . And you Capernaum, will you be exalted to heaven? You shall be brought down to Hades. For if the mighty works done in you had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.

As I wrote elsewhere: “This has to do with what Tyre, Sidon, and Sodom would have done had they received more preaching like the first three. This is middle knowledge: knowledge of possible, conditioned responses that didn’t actually happen due to differential circumstances.”

Middle knowledge is possible as part of God’s omniscience. Knowing everything — so the Molinist argues — entails knowing not only what men will do in what to us is the future (but to God is already present — He being out of time) but what they would have done had they been in different circumstances. Note, then, that the above passage contains the two essential components necessary for middle knowledge:

1) Theoretical circumstances that did not actually happen, but may have happened.

2) Knowledge of how people would have reacted had this alternate state of affairs occurred in actuality.

Since God cannot make statements that are merely probable (since this would indicate a lack of knowledge and therefore omniscience), He must know these merely possible and not actual occurrences with the certainty that He possesses with regard to all knowledge. Therefore, middle knowledge is proven from Scripture. Now, whether He chooses to exercise scientia media in His decrees of predestination to glory is not so easily proven from Scripture, but it seems to me a quite permissible speculation based on other revelations of God from the same Bible.

Ott writes about further possible biblical evidence for Molinism:

The Molinists invoke the passages which attest the universality of the Divine desire for salvation, especially 1 Tim 2:4, as well as the sentence to be pronounced by the Judge of the World (Mt 25:34-36), in which the works of mercy are given as ground for the acceptance into the Heavenly Kingdom. But that these are also the basis for the ‘preparation’ for the Kingdom, that is, for the eternal resolve of Predestination, cannot be definitely proved from them . . .

Ott also gives the following proposition as a de fide dogma: “GOD, BY AN ETERNAL RESOLVE OF HIS WILL, PREDESTINES CERTAIN MEN, ON ACCOUNT OF THEIR FORESEEN SINS, TO ETERNAL REJECTION.” It seems reasonable, then, that if God takes into account forseen sins in deciding who is to be eternally lost, that He would also take into account foreseen positive actions and beliefs, held or done as a result of His freely given grace, in deciding who to save. I don’t totally understand God’s mind, of course (no one does), but this seems plausible from human reason and what we do know about God. Ludwig Ott wrote in another section of his book:

While exhaustively knowing His creative causality He also knows therein all the operations which flow or can flow from this, and indeed, just as comprehensively as He knows Himself. 1 Jn 1:5: ‘God is light and in Him there is no darkness.’ . . .

GOD KNOWS ALL THAT IS MERELY POSSIBLE BY THE KNOWLEDGE OF SIMPLE INTELLIGENCE (scientia simplicic intelligentiae). (DE FIDE)

. . . Holy Writ teaches that God knows all things and hence also the merely possible [cites Est 14:14, 1 Cor 2:10, S. Th. I, 14,9] . . .

GOD ALSO KNOWS THE CONDITIONED FUTURE FREE ACTIONS WITH INFALLIBLE CERTAINTY (Scientia futuribilium). (SENT. COMMUNIS.)

By these are understood free actions of the future which indeed will never occur, but which would occur, if certain conditions were fulfilled. The Molinists call this Divine knowledge scientia media . . . The Thomists deny that this knowledge of the conditioned future is a special kind of Divine knowledge which precedes the decrees of the Divine Will.

That God possesses the certain knowledge of conditioned future free actions (futuribilia) may be positively proved from Scripture. Mt 11:21: ‘Woe to thee, Corozain! Woe to thee, Bethsaida! For if in Tyre and Sidon had been wrought the miracles that have been wrought in you, they had long ago done penance in sackcloth and ashes.’ Cf. 1 Sam 23:1-13; Wis 4:11.

The Fathers assert Divine foresight of conditioned future things when they teach that God does not always hear our prayer for temporal goods, in order to prevent their misuse; or that God allows a man to die at an early age in order to save him from eternal damnation [cites St. Gregory of Nyssa] . . .

Speculatively, the Divine foreknowing of conditioned future things is based on the infinite perfection of the Divine knowing, on the infallibility of the Divine providence, and on the practice of prayer in the Church . . .

Molinism, deriving from the Jesuit theologian Louis Molina (+ 1600) explains the infallible Divine prescience of future free actions by recourse to scientia media, which precedes the Divine decrees of will conceptually, not in time, and which is independent of them. Through scientia simplicis intelligentiae God knows from all eternity how every creature endowed with reason will act in all possible circumstances. Through scientia media He knows how it would act in all possible conditions, in the case of new conditions being realised. In the light of scientia media He then resolves with the fullest freedom to realise certain determined conditions. Now He knows through scientia visionis with infallible certainty, how the person will, in fact, act in these conditions . . .

The mode of the scientia media, which is the basis of the whole system, remains unexplained. (pp. 40-43)

Here is some of the patristic evidence (citations from William A. Jurgens, The Faith of the Early Fathers, Collegeville, Minnesota: Liturgical Press, 1979):

OrigenCommentaries on Genesis, 3, 6 [ante 232]:

When God undertook in the beginning to create the world, for nothing that comes to be is without a cause, – each of the things that would ever exist was presented to His mind. He saw what else would result when such a thing were produced; and if such a result were accomplished, what else would accompany; and what else would be the result even of this when it would come about. And so on to the conclusion of the sequence of events, He knew what would be, without being altogether the cause of
the coming to be of each of the things which He knew would happen. (vol. 1, 200, #461)

St. Gregory of NyssaOn the Untimely Deaths of Infants, Migne, PG 46, col. 184 [c. 381]:

It is a reasonable supposition that God, who knows the future just as well as the past, checks the advance of an infant to perfect maturity of life so that the evil which, by virtue of His foreknowledge, He has detected in the future, may not actually develop . . . This, we suspect, is the reason for the deaths of infants; He who does all things rationally withdraws the material of evil in His great love for men, granting no time for the actual doing of evil works to one whom, by virtue of his foreknowledge, He knows would indulge a propensity for evil. (vol. 2, 57, #1059)

St. Augustine, The Gift of Perseverance, 9, 22 [c. 429]:

[C]ertainly God, foreknowing that certain men would fall away, was able to take them from this life before that would happen. (vol. 3, 174, #1996)

I have strong reservations about Molinism- as did the Post-Tridentine Church which first confronted it. 

Not, however, to the extent that it was prohibited.

It would seem to me that the critical issue with Molinism is the assertion that God predestines in accordance with foreseen merits. This opinion of Molina, would seem to me to imply as a corollary the scientia media. However, is there really any basis in the Scriptures for the assertion that God predestines in accordance with foreseen merits? What scriptural texts would you appeal to in order to support this position? 

I provided those above. By extension, all the many passages which discuss the importance of works in whether one is saved or not, might be thought to apply here. They seem to indicate that God regards these as highly important in salvation, and therefore, it is reasonable to suppose that they may have played a part in His decision to damn some people and save others. On the other hand, I don’t think you can provide texts which absolutely rule this out and allow for predestination in a way which is distinguishable from Calvinist forms which deny human free will.

Would this not make God’s grace dependent upon our free will, as if there is passivity in God?

No, because He is still the ultimate cause of any good thing that we do. He would simply be considering what we actually do (still caused by His grace) in relation to His salvation. If He knows that we will accept and act upon His grace, He could therefore choose to elect the person who does so. It still all goes back to God, so I don’t see any problem.

As if the will is absolute in juxtaposition with God’s will?

The Bible often expresses ideas which suggest that our will and God’s become one and the same. We “work together” with Him; are His “co-laborer’s,” etc. Philippians 2:12-13 puts both things together: “Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; for God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.”

I have three main issues with Molinism:

1. Its conception of freedom: freedom is understood as an absolute in juxtaposition with God’s will, rather than dependent on God’s will. Since, according to Molina, God dispenses grace based on foreseen knowledge and consent, his will becomes dependent on ours. I find this almost blasphemous.

I don’t think (though I’m not absolutely sure, and don’t claim any expertise at all in this whole complicated area) that grace is dependent upon foreseen consent, but rather election to salvation. In other words, God gives the grace that all need in order to be able to choose Him and salvation. Some act in the right way upon that enabling grace; others do not. God would then take into account how men are going to act, in His election of some and not others to salvation.

If I’m right about that, how He distributes grace is not dependent on man’s will over against His own. I would never hold that God’s will is dependent upon ours. If that is what Molinism entails, and you can prove this to me, then I will change my position. But I will have to see some solid documentation for that to happen.

2. The scientia media: this places both the knowledge and the will of God as regards our salvation entirely dependent on our will- 

No, not at all. I think the objection is based on an unnecessary dichotomy: because we work together with God’s grace, it is thought that we are the final cause rather than God, because God must do all and we, nothing. This is the same exact objection that protestants have about Catholic soteriology in general (which they mistakenly characterize as semi-Pelagianism and refer to derisively as synergism).

Just because God takes into account our response (in Molinism) does not prove that “salvation is entirely dependent on our will.” This couldn’t possibly be the case anyway, since Trent rules out Pelagianism. Therefore, there is no such thing as “man’s will for good” without God’s enabling grace. That being the case, it is a matter of definition that a will towards accepting God’s grace and salvation cannot possibly be :independent” of God and somehow self-originated by man. Therefore, your difficulty vanishes, as an instance of false dichotomy.

how we would respond in various circumstances- rather than on God’s omnipotent will and the gratuity of his grace. 

I’ve already shown from the Bible that God has middle knowledge about how we might respond in different circumstances.

It is already implied in the above notion of freedom. Thus, grace ceases to be absolutely gratuitous- which appears to contradict the Apostle- “What do you have that you have not first received?” (Romans 9)

I agree; this is not at issue.

3. It’s determinism: seeking to avoid external determinism, I see Molinism as falling into the trap of that which it fears. Circumstances, pre-arranged by God, infallibly carry out his plans.

The existence of true human free will means that determinism is ruled out. In my opinion, Molinism squares better with both free will and God’s desire for universal atonement (rather than the Calvinist limited atonement). That’s why I believe it. It makes the most sense to me based on what we know about God.

Therefore, properly speaking, external circumstances determine the fate of each person, even though it is said that each is given sufficient grace so that they, rather than God are responsible for their sins. To me, this greatly compromises man’s freedom, if not destroys it all together by reducing his actions to the necessity of circumstance.

You’ll have to explain this further. I don’t think I understand the argument you are making on this point.

I believe it is a false dilemma to state: 1) either determinism or 2) freedom; which (albeit a brief summarizing) you seem to assert in your dialogue with Dr. Alex Pruss. [link]

I agree. I think reality is a paradox of cooperation of man with God’s enabling grace and His predestination. We cooperate in our salvation; we know that from the Bible, so why wouldn’t God consider that in electing to save us?

It is clear, both from reason and revelation, that God determines the human person, as a first cause determines a second cause (though not in the order of time, but in that of causality).

Yes, of course.

Especially since our free will is clearly the creation of God himself. Yet as God determines each being according to its nature, so too God determines man according to his nature. In man’s case, God determines man in a non-necessitating manner, since man is free. Mysterious, no doubt, but I believe it to be logically sound. God is the creator of man. Man is free. Therefore, God determine’s man’s will in a non-necessitating manner.

If it is non-necessitating, how can it be determined? Please elaborate. It could very well be that I am missing some crucial distinction.

By analogy, God’s grace- eternally decreed- determines the elect infallibly toward salvation, since God’s will is omnipotent. But God’s grace determines the elect in such a non-necessitating manner, so that while it is really possible for them to fall and remain in sin unto death, they do not. Indeed God wills the salvation of all, in the sense that God wills that it is possible for all to be saved. In doing so- in God’s antecedent will- God concommitantly wills the possibility that some will not be saved. Yet as regards his consequent will- God decrees that some will be saved and then dispenses graces accordingly- in an absolutely gratuitous manner. I believe the Scriptures, especially Saint Paul are clear on this issue, and if you would like to continue this dialogue I will furnish a summary of the principle texts for you.

The problem I have with this is that it is hardly distinguishable logically from Calvinist double predestination. Ott wrote:

 

POSITIVE REPROBATION

Heretical Predestinationism in its various forms (the Southern Gallic priest Lucidus in the 5th century; the monk Gottschalk in the 9th century, according to reports of his opponents, which, however, find no confirmation in his recently re-discovered writings; Wycliffe, Hus, and esp. Calvin), teaches a positive predetermination to sin, and an unconditional Predestination to the eternal punishment of hell, that is, without consideration of future demerits. This was rejected as false doctrine by the Particular Synods of Orange, Quiercy & Valence and by the Council of Trent. Unconditioned positive Reprobation leads to a denial of the universality of the Divine Desire for salvation, and of the Redemption, and contradicts the Justice and Holiness of God as well as the freedom of man.

According to the teaching of the Church, there is a conditioned positive Reprobation, that is, it occurs with consideration of foreseen future demerits (post et propter praevisa demerita). The conditional nature of Positive Reprobation is demanded by the generality of the Divine Resolve of salvation. This excludes God’s desiring in advance the damnation of certain men (cf. 1 Tim 2:4, Ezek 33:11, 2 Pet 3:9) . . .

NEGATIVE REPROBATION

In the question of Reprobation, the Thomist view favours not an absolute, but only a negative Reprobation. This is conceived by most Thomists as non-election to eternal bliss (non-electio), together with the Divine resolve to permit some rational creatures to fall into sin, and thus by their own guilt to lose eternal salvation. In contrast to the absolute Positive Reprobation of the Predestinarians, Thomists insist on the universality of the Divine Resolve of Salvation and Redemption, the allocation of sufficient graces to the reprobate, and the freedom of man’s will. However, it is difficult to find an intrinsic concordance between unconditioned non-election and the universality of the Divine Resolve of salvation. In practice, the unconditioned negative Reprobation of the Thomists involves the same result as the unconditioned positive Reprobation of the heretical Predestinarians, since outside Heaven and Hell
there is no third final state.


I would say, based on the above, that the Thomist position on predestination of the reprobate is not distinguishable from the heretical Calvinist view, whereas the Molinist position is more in line with what Ott states is Church teaching on conditioned positive reprobation. God takes into account foreseen demerits and merits, so that Molinism has a certain parallelism which (to me, anyway) has a ring of truth, which the Thomist position lacks. I suppose this could be described as an argument from analogy.

Clearly, God does not predestine anyone to hell; yet he permits some to fall and remain in sin, either for a greater good, or in just punishment for previous sins. However, why God does not elect some, but does others- this indeed would seem to be a truth only known in the next life, as St. Paul confesses in Romans 9 and St. Augustine advises- “Why God elects some, and not others, do not judge, lest you err.” 

I think the deeper mystery lies in explaining why some choose salvation and others do not, based on the same grace potentially available to all. I think that mystery makes more sense to accept as a probable reality than to assert a scenario where God “passes over” some while electing others, without regard to their actions. That’s too close to heretical double predestination for me, thank you. I think Molinism better squares with God’s mercy and justice.

Further, God cannot command what is impossible; therefore, of those who are damned we can say two things: 1) It was really possible for them to keep the divine commands, and they failed to do so of their own free choice and 2) God’s decree of damnation was inflicted from all eternity but only in view of their demerits, not prior to their actual demerits in contrast with election. Therefore, reprobation and predestination seem to operate in an inverted fashion- one by election prior to foreseen merits- so that the gift is absolutely free; the other on the basis of demerits witnessed from all eternity.

This is what I deny. I think it is parallel, not “inverted,” as you say. But just because God considers merits in electing the saved does not mean that He didn’t cause those merits. It’s the same argument that we have with the Protestants over merit itself (I just had a big debate about that with a Lutheran), extended to election. God considers our merits but that is only “crowning His own gifts,” as Augustine says. Hence, Molinism is merely extending the principle which all Catholics already accept regarding merit per se.

In closing, I am curious as to your deeper thoughts on this issue. Undoubtedly, it is among the most controversial and mysterious of Church mysteries that the mind can probe. 

Absolutely. And because I agree that this is the case, I am not in the least dogmatic about my position. It is what I have come to in my own mind, based on what I know (and feel). But both positions are allowed by the Church, and this is my sincere conclusion and opinion, based on my existing knowledge of theology and much reflection through the years.

Ultimately it is a mystery, I believe of God’s infinite mercy, justice, and freedom all coming together at a point that is too bright for us to perceive in this life.

Yes, for sure. I have given my reasons for being a Molinist, to the best of my ability.

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(originally 4-15-06)

Photo credit: image by DavidZydd  (7-12-17) [PixabayCC0 Creative Commons license]

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2018-09-13T13:33:54-04:00

Daniel Morgan (atheist) responded in my comments boxes, with regard to my critique of John Loftus’ deconversion story. This is my reply. His words will be in blue; my older cited words in green.

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Hi Daniel,

Thanks much for the rational response. It’s good to know that at least one atheist who comments here has his wits about him [see, e.g., John Loftus’ astounding display of hostile non sequiturs, in “response” to my critique] . Y’all are generally a pretty sharp group.

generally this indicates a less-than-stellar foundational Christian teaching

So him being in trouble is worse than you losing faith? 

Losing faith is bad, though I really didn’t do that. I didn’t have any decent religious instruction or any informed faith to lose. I was abysmally ignorant. It was a sort of vacuum, rather than an active rejection. I was only ten years old at the time we stopped going to church. But I was still interested in spiritual things, which is precisely why I became fascinated with the occult.

But my point in context was that John’s account did not suggest to me that he had any good religious instruction or example himself. There’s always exceptions to the rule, but generally that great of a rebellion lends itself to a deficient upbringing as the cause or partial cause. Just ask about the childhood of criminals if you doubt this. Take a survey.

Seems odd to claim, esp given some Biblical characters, whose troubles were always overcome by faith, rather than vice versa.

See my last comment.

Even that won’t suffice to prevent apostasy if there are other deficiencies because the mind is only one aspect of a well-rounded faith.

Do you think that belief is not a completely mental affair?

That’s correct. Grace and faith (and the soul itself) are supernatural in character. The intellectual aspects of Christian faith are only one aspect of it.

Much philosophy can make one go astray as well, if too much skeptical and fallacious philosophy takes hold on one’s brain. But in the end it comes down to God’s grace and whether we accept it and continue to live by it, or reject it.

I can honestly say that this is why I no longer believe – atheological and philosophical arguments.

It seems you have an interesting change-up in views – before you are emphasizing the integral issue of apologia, now you are cautioning those who may want to build defenses not to allow “much philosophy” to “take hold”

Obviously in context I meant “bad philosophy”; not philosophy per se. I love philosophy. But there is plenty of it that starts from false premises and goes from there.

. . . how can a Christian interested in answering doubts and such know which philosophical ideas will “take hold”, and does this “taking hold” indicate that the philosophical arguments are actually strong?

It may or may not. If a person isn’t equipped to answer a bad (but clever and prima facie plausible) philosophical argument, then he is dead meat. There may be excellent Christian replies. But obviously they do little good if one is totally unaware of them.

If you take a relatively ignorant (in things of faith and also other subjects he is, after all, there to learn), inexperienced, idealistic, (usually) herd-mentality young person of 18-21 and throw him into an environment where it seems like the “smart” people (the professor and other smart alecky non-Christian students) mock Christianity and Christian morals, then what would you expect?

He isn’t presented with both sides, generally (I took about eight philosophy courses; I know what goes on, and psychology and sociology are the same). It is oftentimes the best atheist arguments against the worst, or caricatured Christian or theist arguments. Really fair, ain’t it?

So is it any surprise that the Christian student often loses his faith? Usually he had no apologetic background with which to counter this utterly slanted onslaught. This is why I do what I do! Lots of young kids read my stuff. I’m delighted to be able to help them through this ordeal of relentless, almost forced secularization at college.

Your answer seems to waver here as you indicate God’s grace, something that always seems difficult to flesh out from free will. Do you think God’s grace may be lessened or withdrawn if someone is reading “bad” philosophical ideas? 

If one accepts false ideas, that may counter grace, yes. But it’s complex. It would depend on how much one really knows. If he deliberately rejects a God and a Christianity that he truly knew, then the consequences for lack of grace would be worse. But if he is simply ignorant (as I was, up to age 18, in matters of theology), then I think it is a very different situation.

Do you liken such reading to going into a strip club and expecting God to protect you from it?

Any false idea has (somewhat like lust and sex, but on a totally different level) an attraction to one who is predisposed to accept it or too ignorant to counter it, or lacking a superior alternative. It should frighten all of us. Truth is oftentimes difficult to attain in our society.

The philosophical arguments are as “seductive”? Is it perhaps because they are sound and difficult to reply to?

The ideas are received in an environment which is strongly weighted against theism and faith. That’s supremely important to understand and take into consideration. We’re not all calculating rational machines. We accept things usually because everyone around us, or some respected figure does first. Some are “good” arguments as far as they go. This is why we home-school our children: not because we want to insulate them from reality, but because we refuse to leave them open to the distinct possibility of being brainwashed in the overwhelmingly secularized, literally anti-Christian public school system (as I was in the Detroit schools).

By the time they go to college they will be equipped with apologetics and solid Christian philosophy and the ability to think critically and to be able to spot false premises and ideas when they see it, with the knowledge to withstand them when necessary. I hasten to add that I don’e believe every parent must home-school. It’s impossible in some cases. But every Christian parent must provide some Christian counter-weight to the onslaught of secularism and profound anti-Christian bias in the schools.

If the student never sees any alternative, then what would you expect? On my website, I give people the alternatives. They can read both sides and decide for themselves which is more worthy of belief. I don’t just present the Christian view and ignore all the other ones. That’s why I have almost 360 dialogues posted. I’m a totally committed Socratic in method.

There is a reason many Christians lose their faith in college.

I wrote a post on this phenomenon. Do you think it possible that it is because many Christians are insulated from the most serious objections to faith, and evidence that damages their conception thereof? 

That’s part of it; absolutely. The atheist “evidence” damages only insofar as a student is unfamiliar with the best Christian replies. Christians need to know not only how to defend their own belief, but how to refute competing ideas, of varying levels of respectability. Young Christians usually have neither skill when they go to college. And the skeptical or atheist professors (the ones who deliberately — and I would say, unethically — try to undermine the faith of their students) know this full well and cynically exploit it to their advantage.

I certainly do. I think this is a huge reason for it – the whole reason for going to college is to enlarge your borders/perspectives/knowledge, but this is dangerous to any religion. 

It’s dangerous if the situation is abominably unfair and extremely biased to one side only. Very few young people, who want to be accepted by their peers and thought to be intelligent by their professors, can withstand that. It’s a stacked deck.

All religions work via identifying “us/them” and most have a protective effect (purge “them” if they infiltrate “us”).

All belief-systems whatsoever do that, I would contend. Atheists do the same exact thing. Hence, we have blogs with names like, oh, how about Debunking Christianity? LOL It looks like I may soon be banned from commenting there myself, judging by John’s current hysteria and profound hyper-sensitivity to critique. If so, then that is an atheist “purge” of the oddball Christian “them.” I mustn’t be allowed to mess with the status quo of atheist profundity and skepticism by giving cogent answers and rational alternatives to misguided atheist rhetoric (I hope I’m wrong about that, but we’ll see soon enough). I made a point somewhere about how John Loftus puts up a site like that, whose purpose is almost entirely negative. He doesn’t put up a blog called The Joys and Rewards of a Life of Atheism. Christianity at least offers some positive, constructive vision.

lest we get duped by truly stupid, utterly unnecessary dichotomies such as this “dogma vs. philosophy” or “faith vs. reason” claptrap

Responding to this adequately would take a lot of time, 

It was a very general statement.

so I would just quote Aquinas and Gregory the Great: Aquinas said, “If our opponent believes nothing of divine revelation, there is no longer any means of proving the articles of faith by reasoning, but only of answering his objections – if he has any – against faith.” 

Yep; I agree. Apologetics (particularly with atheists) is largely about the removal of “roadblocks” or obstacles. Once those are disposed of, then the apologist can defend Christian doctrines that ought to be accepted in faith, with a rational (and not at all irrational) basis, as far as reason can take one.

He admits this directly after quoting Gregory the Great, “faith has no merit in those things of which human reason brings its own experience.”

St. Thomas Aquinas believes that faith and reason can be totally harmonized. I agree with him. Are you claiming that he is teaching otherwise here? You provide no reference for the sake of consulting context.

Surely you will admit that a careful handling of dogma, philosophy, faith and reason does lead to some dichotomies? Esp the problem of revelation v reason?

I meant irreconcilable dichotomies. There are different kinds of knowledge. The atheist wants to rule out that one can attain knowledge in certain ways (e.g., revelation) and that certain things can happen (miracles), or (often) that anything non-material can exist. But that is not a real dichotomy; it is an artificial one.

in the end, belief-systems must be analyzed of their own accord.

I agree, but we must keep in mind that Xianity has a particular truth claim to evaluate and analyze that involves the indwelling, sanctification, etc., of the believer. One of the few truth claims that we can evaluate just from observation.

No particular reply . . .

The fact that my wife or child may die or that my reputation is ruined, or that I go bankrupt or get a fatal disease, or become handicapped due to an assault has nothing to do with, that I can see, of whether the truth claims of Christianity are acceptable or not.

It certainly depends upon your interpretation of Xianity, doesn’t it? 

Not really. What is it about a person dying or going through problems that disproves Christianity? Nothing. Just like the problem of evil doesn’t disprove that God exists. Atheists tried for centuries and had deluded confidence in that, but now it is in shambles and they are left with far less impressive, highly subjective plausibility arguments.

Some going through such tragedies would point to the covenant nature of Xianity, and question if God was involved in another “bet” with the devil. Some would question the idea that God speaks to them at all, if they spend hours each day “communing” yet had no warning whatsoever that their child had an advanced stage of cancer and that no one knew until it was too late . . . etc., etc. Surely you can see how the question of the relationship of the believer to God falls under this category? 

Yes, but I thought we were talking about how this supposedly is a disproof of Christianity (related to John’s deconversion).

There are many teachings about the “covenant”, and so I would think you could see some falsification potential here.

One particular theology may be proven wrong and that disproves Christianity? Again, you lost me.

People know that’s not possible on merely human power alone. It contradicts everything we know about ourselves.

Ah, so you believe in Allah now?

How so?

He shows poor hermeneutical skills here.

And this is what Steve Hays would say to you. (Steve is a YEC) And AiG, and ICR, and etc., they all have their “experts” who would disagree with your interpretation of Genesis and its exegesis.

Every movement has its fringe groups. YAWN Even atheists!

That’s the view of many of us Christians, and we’re not all losing faith like John. Quite the contrary. I’ve been doing Christian apologetics for 25 years now, and I’ve never been caused to doubt my faith as a result of further study (and I’ve done tons of that). I’ve always had my faith strengthened, in defending the faith, seeing how solid it is on rational grounds, and observing the weakness of attacks upon it.

Up above, you cautioned those who would delve into “much philosophy”. Do you see how one could read your words before, and these words, and see a bit of a contradiction? 

No, because you took that completely out of its context. I meant “bad philosophy.” I have entire web pages on philosophy, and excruciatingly long debates on heavy philosophical issues with atheists and scientists. You have simply misunderstood my meaning, in your zeal to find a contradiction somewhere.

Either you can admit that there are rational grounds for rejecting Christianity or not, 

Conceivably, but I’ve yet to see one in my rounds as an apologist. The Problem of Evil is instructive. For centuries atheists strutted around like poeacocks thinking that was the Knockout Punch. Turns out it wasn’t. I suspect this is the case for all the other currently fashionable arguments too.

but you seem to admit there is some sort of grounds that people do, upon having “too much [secular] education” . . . 

They have grounds for rejecting a caricature for a seemingly plausible view in an atmosphere thoroughly hostile to Christianity. I was saying that in the context of Christian college students losing their faith. Like I said, it’s a “stacked deck” and they don’t have a chance in that situation, if they are inadequately equipped. Belief systems and reasons for adopting them are exceedingly complex. I’ve always thought that: at least as far back as my first philosophy course in 1977 as a freshman in college, if not before.

No, but they could explain how a person would be more open to thoughts of a contrary nature to Christianity, if one is going through a period when he wonders about why God might do thus-and-so, or not do this or that, and if Christians are not being particularly consoling or understanding of his crisis. We don’t develop in a vacuum.

Ah, now we’re back to the catch-all factor: God’s grace.

I don’t see that I was talking all that much about grace in this particular remark. I was talking about hostile environments that one may find oneself in. That can explain loss of faith on a personal, emotional, human level, but that doesn’t disprove Christianity. That was my point.

There is no question that this happens, and that intellectual rationales are only the merest facade for the real or far more important reasons.

Sometimes it does, just as many people merely believe out of tradition, fear or hope, and not serious rational analysis.

Exactly.

One thing to keep in mind though is that freedom does not necessitate atheism. Rejecting Christianity is just that, and it leaves one with quite a number of options for “freedom” if that is all they want – from Buddhism to Krishna to any other Eastern philosophy, then to a sort of open/loose theism or deism, then agnosticism, etc.

Of course.

Everyone wants others to think that they made these big changes in opinion based on complete rationality and objectivity.

I agree – we all want to at least THINK that we’re rational, and appear that way to others.

But any look at ourselves quickly disabuses us of that notion: at least in any pure sense.

That’s a difficult claim to back up. First, looking inward is subjective, definitionally. Now, we all act irrationally at times, and often in retrospect we can even see it and admit it. But to say what you’ve said, bereft of argument, is, well, just another assertion.

Okay; so I am to view you as this perfectly rational, objective thinking machine, immune from all human influences, emotions, biases, pressures of friends and admired ones, family, any number of possible false premises, possible unsavory motivations, pride, jealousy, etc., etc., etc.? I dont think so.

I wonder if he still does, and if not, why atheism would change a respect for the rights of the most defenseless and innocent of human beings? It seems to me that the pro-life position is almost self-evidently right and moral, without the necessity of any theological basis.

I will admit you will find some sympathies with me, esp regarding late-terms. However, in the end, it comes down to a question of value – what makes human what they are, what gives them rights, and what rights does one have over their own body?

A male child is not the same body as his mother, unless you want to argue that females possess male sex organs. Nor is a female baby, for that matter, because she has an entirely different DNA. A human being is the offspring of two other human beings. This ain’t rocket science! It is what it is, genetically, from the moment of conception. A preborn child has rights from simply existing, according to every system of human ethics there is, if it is regarded as a person and a human being (that’s what it boils down to).

There is no good argument that would deny personhood to a preborn human being. What you are now began at the time you were conceived, and cannot possibly have any other logical starting-point. Anything after it is arbitrary; anything before is senseless since the DNA that you possess was not in its present combination. This stuff has to be argued with a graduate student in chemistry? It’s practically self-evident.

I choose to place someone’s legal right to decide whether they will abort a 2-3 month old fetus above any presumed “rights” of something which can rightly be described as less complex, less value-laden in the biological and psychological sense, than a mouse. 

Then you have adopted absurd and monstrous ethics, to regard something you can’t rationally argue is not a human being as of less value than a mouse. This is what atheist (as well as liberal Christian) ethics usually amounts to in practice: animals considered more valuable than human beings. We can’t kill a protected species without penalty, but we can legally slaughter a human being and be patted on the back for it by people like you.

I wanted to know if John changed his mind on abortion, and if so, why? He knows what goes on in abortion, if he used to oppose it.

I think the difficulty in separating this from theology lies in the concept of value – Xians believe the soul itself is an embuement of value.

And atheists believe it is perfectly just to deprive this human being being slaughtered in its mother’s womb of the only life it will ever have. This is the same mentality that ruled the Nazi Holocaust: the notion that there is such a thing as a human life unworthy to be lived, due to inconvenience, or someone else’s lousy science and even more atrocious and selfish ethics.

It did? Not if it doesn’t exist!

He certainly should’ve stated this (and the next statement) otherwise here. The only way to make sense of it, in light of his perspective now, is to inject, “What I thought of as…”

A bad habit of speaking; a remnant of his past fantasies?

But Christianity (rightly understood) is the remedy of that, not its cause.

Hardly. Christianity creates guilt for normal and biological urges and behaviors. It is a source of much guilt where there is no moral argument contrariwise, especially with respect to doubt, sex, self-interest-first behavior, etc.

Not going down that huge rabbit trail . . .

Want a speculation? I’ll bet it’s because there are far fewer “true Christians” than you’d want to believe, and most just go through the motions out of tradition, to keep up appearances, and because of family. Just a speculation.

It depends on how you are defining “Christian” and “true Christian.” The first can be defined doctrinally and discussed in an objective manner. The second: who really is a Christian (really eschatologically saved, or of the elect, etc.), — apart from doctrinal considerations — cannot be determined with any certainty by human beings, only God. But that there are many “wolves in sheep’s clothing” is undeniable. The Bible clearly teaches that.

Does John give far less to charity than he used to, because he is free from guilt?

Speaking for me only, I now see the huge waste in tithing that could be going to real charities –

I wasn’t talking about tithing, but about charity in general. I think it was a good and fair and relevant question, given his rhetoric about guilt. Lots of people give money at church out of guilt or dead, begrudging obligation, not with joy.

places that use >90% of their resources to actually help people, rather than provide infrastructure and etc. for their organizations.

Like pro-life groups? They help real little people . . . to live and be allowed to have a life in the first place.

I see. So the more we can sin, the less guilt we feel? That couldn’t be more opposite of the truth than it is.

Perhaps the better way to see this is, “Why adopt ridiculous notions of perfection that don’t comport with reality, which induces guilt, rather than building an ethical system that actually comes into contact with real life, and living by it, so that you don’t have to deal with guilt?”

Guilt (and the related conscience) is a necessary part of any ethical system and any normal human being. To attempt to get rid of it simply because one has an extreme, distorted sense of guilt (and false attribution of this to God) is as foolish and irrational as trying to get rid of all automobiles because the one you had didn’t run properly.

I’d lay my “sins” on the table next to anyone else’s, any time. I’m a quite transparent kind of guy. People know when I feel bad, and I am a terrible liar.

That’s how I (admittedly, probably cynically) read this. So he has simply gone from overscrupulosity (one extreme, and a distortion of Christianity and discipleship), to another (a marvelously “guilt-free” existence: so he says, anyway). But I don’t believe it. I believe guilt is there, down deep, and knowledge of God is there too (buried and suppressed).

You believe that, and maybe you’re right, although you have no evidence, but you also should consider that people are the products of their environment, and John was a minister for a very very long time. You don’t “shake off” deep-seated convictions overnight, nor the guilt response you’ve held since you were 18. [assuming you’re right]

That’s true, too. But I am saying that he had an incorrect notion of the place and function of guilt as a Christian. He rejected (in that respect) a gross caricature of the proper Christian view and went to the other extreme.

Two considerations:

1) Do we justify Jesus’ words that it is the same to hate someone as to murder? Was this merely a metaphor to point out that bad thoughts are bad? Ditto with adultery/lust?

The thought is that the interior disposition precedes the act and is the essence of the bad act. To murder, one must have a motive, and that motive is immoral and unethical. The hatred is the key to the act.

2) His point is that overscrupulosity can be avoided by saying, “How silly is it to think that we can control our thoughts!”

Of course we can control our thoughts, with God’s help. This is the whole point. I’m not saying it’s easy. It’s a perpetual struggle. But it is possible. When I fall into lust or jealousy or greed or pride or any number of sinful thoughts and feelings, it’s me; it ain’t God doing that. We cultivate and coddle sin when we fall prey to it. The proper response to lust (something I’ve struggled with a lot through the years, as have most men) is to run, as Joseph did from Potiphar’s wife.

That’s the only thing that works. Run! Otherwise we can quickly become consumed by it. But it’s our free will. The response to jealousy is to recognize that we are no better than anyone else under God, and to rejoice if someone else has some blessing we don’t have; not to dwell on ourselves and what we don’t have, etc.

All these things are cultivated by force of habit. Jealousy and slander and malice develop in group gossip situations. It’s obvious how lust is fostered everywhere in our culture. Greed flows from the excessive materialism of our society, and the selfishness that we all must fight constantly. But to just throw in the towel and think that we are at sea with regard to our wills and controlling decadent and immoral habits: that’s asinine and absurd. It’s no more true within an atheist ethical framework than a Christian.

But I have never doubted the fact that God loves me and that He is merciful and all-loving.

Never doubted that, eh? 

That’s what I said. And the Christian believes this is only possible itself by God’s grace, not our own power.

I guess some of us can believe easier than others. I always had doubts, and fears of going to hell, ESP as a devout Christian.

I think a lot of that has to do with our innate temperaments, as I alluded to in my critique. A worrier by nature will obviously worry about matters of faith, or worry that he is good enough, etc. There are many different temperaments. The trick for us is to understand when some objection or feeling we have flows from that rather than the nature or necessity of our belief system.

My temperament is very even keel, easy-going, not moody at all (though I did suffer a serious six-month depression as a one-time event in my life, so I understand that firsthand). It obviously grates upon someone like John, who has a different temperament, and so he has to call me names. But we need to learn to live with and accept (without senseless knee-jerk reactions) human beings who are different from us in gender, age, temperament, culture, politics, religion, worldview, IQ level, class, body type, etc. . . .

Nor do we see even a trace in this in someone like the Apostle Paul, who has a confident, almost boasting faith.

The least of the apostles? The guy who appealed to people he knew in order to make his case that he was authoritative in knowing what God wanted?

The guy who said he was “a Pharisee of the Pharisees” and killed Christians earlier in his life?

Exactly. He was very confident as a Jew and again as a Christian.

Perhaps he just wasn’t as well-endowed (conscience-wise) as some of us, huh?

Before his regeneration, certainly not. But this is what we teach, so no big deal.

So this becomes a major factor. Personal elements that made John feel this excessive guilt and inability to accept God’s mercy and forgiveness, are neither Christianity’s nor God’s fault.

I’ll agree with you on this – guilt and community should have very little to do with our analysis of Christianity.

Good.

Personal elements aren’t determined or caused by God? 

I would say they are largely caused by genes and early upbringing.

So the density of one’s conscience (a cultural and mental phenomenon) has nothing to do with God? How sovereign is your God?

Conscience is only one aspect of temperament of self-aware personhood. We can cultivate conscience just like anything else or gradually cause ourselves to be dead to it. We all have it originally, but it can clearly be abused.

***

(originally 10-16-06)

Photo credit: Demolition of the Sydenham Heritage Church (New Zealand) in February 2011 (Bob Hall) [Wikimedia CommonsCreative Commons Attribution-Share Alike 2.0 Generic license]

***

2018-09-12T12:54:25-04:00

vs. Dr. Alexander Pruss

The following is my friendly dialogue (from 1997) with Dr. Alexander Pruss [an orthodox Catholic with Ph.D.’s in mathematics and philosophy] on the subject of middle knowledge (or, scientia media). He had obtained his doctorate in mathematics the year before and would also earn one in philosophy in 2001. His dissertation was entitled, his dissertation, Possible Worlds: What They Are and What They Are Good For. He is one of the leading orthodox Catholic philosophers today. See some of his papers and essays and Curriculum Vitae (August 2018). I’m honored and humbled to have had the chance to engage in such a dialogue with this very distinguished scholar.
*
I’m quite aware of my limitations in this area, not having directly studied this particular question (I have, however, taken my share of philosophy courses, and have studied much theology). If I botch basic or crucial distinctions, the more philosophically or theologically trained reader has been forewarned. But I am very interested in this topic, so I will rush in where angels fear to tread, hoping for the best. Dr. Pruss’ responses will be in blue. My older cited words will be in green.
**********

I would state very broadly that middle knowledge (as an attribute of God’s omniscience) must indeed be possible and perhaps even logically necessary for two things to coexist:

1) God’s omniscience and providence;
and:

2) Man’s free will, encompassing both freedom of contrary choice and voluntary action.

As I see it (provisionally, to be sure), there are essentially two choices vis-a-vis the relationship of God’s infallible providence and man’s freedom:

1) God absolutely determines everything and man must respond accordingly, just as physical matter is bound to the laws of nature (in other words, fatalism);
or:

2) God, by virtue of scientia media (middle knowledge), foresees even possible, conditional acts of His free creatures, and acts accordingly to bring about His perfect will for the course of human history. So He still causes and determines what will happen, yet in a way which allows true freedom of action and participation on the part of His creatures.

Thus, if men are truly free, it seems to me that #2 follows (at least as a possible theory, if not a necessity), since the contrary would lead to a scenario whereby either men are not free (#1), or God is not sovereign, and unable to bring about His desires for world and salvation history. Once evil and the power of contrary choice are brought into the picture, God has to “work around” our too-common “counter-wills” in order to orchestrate His providential designs. Thus He must have knowledge of conditional actions so that He can still cause to occur the “best of all possible worlds” (given the existence of sin).

Since we know that “all things work together for good” (Rom 8:28) — at least for the believer — I think God must providentially and sovereignly act according to what He foresees our free response would be in any given circumstance. Otherwise, we would be able to put a monkey wrench in the divine plan and the world would end up in a mess, rather than as the “new heaven and earth” which it is destined to be. Since this cannot happen, middle knowledge must not only be possible, but necessary.

As one might guess, I am a Molinist (at least as far as I understand it). I believe free will can be maintained in such a way that it does no violence either to God’s sovereignty, predestination of the elect, or the doctrine of non-Pelagian, non-semi-Pelagian grace. And the solution to that – in my humble opinion – is precisely what the Molinists have proposed. This is not the only possible theory, but personally I think it is the best one, which solves the problem quite satisfactorily for me.

As to the question of whether such notions are infallibly binding for all Catholics, I have found a few citations:

Fr. John A. Hardon, in his Pocket Catholic Dictionary (New York: Doubleday, 1980, 296), states:

The secondary objects of divine knowledge are . . . the purely possible, the real, and the conditionally future. He knows all that is merely possible by what is called the knowledge of simple intelligence. This means that, in comprehending his infinite imitability and his omnipotence, God knows therein the whole sphere of the possible.

Likewise, the ubiquitous Ludwig Ott writes in his Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma (Rockford, Illinois: TAN, 1974 [orig. 1952], 40-43):

While exhaustively knowing His creative causality He also knows therein all the operations which flow or can flow from this, and indeed, just as comprehensively as He knows Himself. 1 Jn 1:5: ‘God is light and in Him there is no darkness.’ . . .

GOD KNOWS ALL THAT IS MERELY POSSIBLE BY THE KNOWLEDGE OF SIMPLE INTELLIGENCE (scientia simplicic intelligentiae). (DE FIDE)

. . . Holy Writ teaches that God knows all things and hence also the merely possible [cites Est 14:14, 1 Cor 2:10, S. Th. I, 14,9] . . .

GOD ALSO KNOWS THE CONDITIONED FUTURE FREE ACTIONS WITH INFALLIBLE CERTAINTY (Scientia futuribilium). (SENT. COMMUNIS.)

By these are understood free actions of the future which indeed will never occur, but which would occur, if certain conditions were fulfilled. The Molinists call this Divine knowledge scientia media . . . The Thomists deny that this knowledge of the conditioned future is a special kind of Divine knowledge which precedes the decrees of the Divine Will.

That God possesses the certain knowledge of conditioned future free actions (futuribilia) may be positively proved from Scripture. Mt 11:21: ‘Woe to thee, Corozain! Woe to thee, Bethsaida! For if in Tyre and Sidon had been wrought the miracles that have been wrought in you, they had long ago done penance in sackcloth and ashes.’ Cf. 1 Sam 23:1-13; Wis 4:11.

The Fathers assert Divine foresight of conditioned future things when they teach that God does not always hear our prayer for temporal goods, in order to prevent their misuse; or that God allows a man to die at an early age in order to save him from eternal damnation [cites St. Gregory of Nyssa, which will be cited below] . . .

Speculatively, the Divine foreknowing of conditioned future things is based on the infinite perfection of the Divine knowing, on the infallibility of the Divine providence, and on the practice of prayer in the Church . . .

Molinism, deriving from the Jesuit theologian Louis Molina (+ 1600) explains the infallible Divine prescience of future free actions by recourse to scientia media, which precedes the Divine decrees of will conceptually, not in time, and which is independent of them. Through scientia simplicis intelligentiae God knows from all eternity how every creature endowed with reason will act in all possible circumstances. Through scientia media He knows how it would act in all possible conditions, in the case of new conditions being realised. In the light of scientia media He then resolves with the fullest freedom to realise certain determined conditions. Now He knows through scientia visionis with infallible certainty, how the person will, in fact, act in these conditions . . .

The mode of the scientia media, which is the basis of the whole system, remains unexplained.

William A. Jurgens, in his The Faith of the Early Fathers (Collegeville, Minnesota: Liturgical Press, 1979), offers three passages from the Fathers on this particular point:

Origen, Commentaries on Genesis , 3,6 [ante 232]

When God undertook in the beginning to create the world, for nothing that comes to be is without a cause, – each of the things that would ever exist was presented to His mind. He saw what else would result when such a thing were produced; and if such a result were accomplished, what else would accompany; and what else would be the result even of this when it would come about. And so on to the conclusion of the sequence of events, He knew what would be, without being altogether the cause of the coming to be of each of the things which He knew would happen. (vol. 1, 200, #461)

Then what was the cause, if it was not God, and if each thing has a cause? This is my greatest puzzlement.

God is the First and Primary Cause, and man in a vastly inferior, secondary sense. Without the former, theism and Christianity collapse; without the latter, fatalism results, and God becomes the author of evil. They both must be held together in paradox. And the free will of man entails middle knowledge on God’s part, in my opinion.

St. Gregory of Nyssa, On the Untimely Deaths of Infants, Migne, PG 46, col. 184 [c. 381]:

It is a reasonable supposition that God, who knows the future just as well as the past, checks the advance of an infant to perfect maturity of life so that the evil which, by virtue of His foreknowledge, He has detected in the future, may not actually develop . . . This, we suspect, is the reason for the deaths of infants; He who does all things rationally withdraws the material of evil in His great love for men, granting no time for the actual doing of evil works to one whom, by virtue of his foreknowledge, He knows would indulge a propensity for evil. (vol. 2, 57, #1059)

St. Augustine, The Gift of Perseverance, 9,22 [c. 429]:

. . . certainly God, foreknowing that certain men would fall away, was able to take them from this life before that would happen. (vol. 3, 174, #1996)

Thus, this opinion would seem to be firmly entrenched in the Catholic faith, with even St. Thomas Aquinas giving assent to it (unless I am missing some of the subtleties in this difficult discussion, which is entirely possible).

I agree that God knows all the actual future actions of people—that is obviously de fide. I agree also that He knows all the possible actions that people could commit. But I am not sure if middle knowledge is necessary to God’s sovereignty. There are also two possible kinds of middle knowledge:

(1) the knowledge of what persons whom God chose not to create would have freely done, and

(2) the knowledge of what persons whom God did create would have done under different circumstances.

I do not think type (1) middle knowledge is absolutely necessary to God’s sovereignty. As to type (2) I am not sure.

Personally, with regard to (1), I don’t see any logical distinction between possible (but not actual) actions of real people and those of uncreated “people.” In both instances there are non-existent, purely theoretical “possible actions.” I think the non-created “possible people” enter into the equation in the sense that in working out His plan, God could have involved others which He chose not to involve by not allowing them to be conceived (!). He knows how their lives would have changed things as well, and in that sense they are as “involved” in God’s providence (indirectly) as the created people are.

In these scarcely comprehensible speculations, a non-life is not that distinguishable (as a potentially-causative agent) from a greatly shortened life or a vastly different one (as in, e.g., that marvelous movie about providence, It’s a Wonderful Life). In other words, I don’t see how the lack of existence, compared to potential acts of existent creatures, is significantly different vis-a-vis sovereignty and providence (but I could very well be confusing things). So then, I would conclude that the non-created group falls under the category of the “possible,” which you have already accepted. If not, I would be very interested in your logical distinction between the two concepts.

As for (2), again, I don’t see any particularly compelling distinction between the “possible” and the “conditional” or “circumstantial.” I was a bit fuzzy on this point with regard to Ott’s two categories as well. Perhaps you can elaborate on this a bit. Therefore, I accept both propositions as flowing from the notion of the “possible” within the sphere of God’s omniscience. I may be all wet. Basically, I’m just thinking out loud. :-) “His ways are above our ways . . .”

Once evil and the power of contrary choice are brought into the picture, God has to “work around” our too-common “counter-wills” in order to orchestrate His providential designs. 

Yes. However, it is not clear to me that God cannot arrange things so that He can work around our counter-wills with just simple foreknowledge, without middle knowledge. I agree that it might be difficult. But I do not know if it is a logical impossibility or not.

I continue to suspect that it is logically impossible (not that I’m supremely confident or anything! — after all, Thomists disagree, and that definitely makes me quake in my boots).

It is a matter of what comes “first” conceptually in the plan of providence and God’s decrees: foreknowledge (i.e., seeing but not causing) or predestination (efficient causation). I think granting human free will, which is the crux of the issue, in my opinion it is the former, and once one accepts that, then it seems to me he must accept Middle Knowledge and Molinism (or Arminianism of some sort if one is a Protestant).

If the latter, then isn’t free will in some way seriously hindered (as Ott admits), and is not God causing all our actions without our “input” at all (or at least a greatly reduced participation)? That was the whole point of Luther’s thesis in his seminal work The Bondage of the Will, I think: that God does all, causes all. He denied (as far as I can tell) our “secondary, participatory causation” (i.e., relative to our appropriating salvific grace). And almost all Protestants deny any notion of “merit” on the same basis.

After all, could not God always miraculously ensure that His ends should be realized in ways that do not rely on middle knowledge? I don’t know for sure…

Two things: first, as for the “miraculous,” that is always the exception to the rule, by definition. I don’t see that miracles are normatively necessary to ensure the working-out of providence. Second, I think this would affect adversely the true freedom of will which is dogmatic Catholic belief (and also the majority Protestant view – though not of its Founders).

Thus He must have knowledge of conditional actions so that He can still cause to occur the “best of all possible worlds” (given the existence of sin).

But do we really have the “best of all possible worlds”? After all, God was free not to create a world (Vatican I, definition). It would seem, thus, that He would also be free to create a world that is not optimal. I am not saying He did that: but He could have done it. Did God create the best of all possible worlds? Maybe He created the best world possible for the believer. But must this be absolutely the best world?

Of course, God is not bound by any limitations other than logical impossibilities and evil actions contrary to His essence. So this doesn’t have to be the best world, but I tend to think it is (i.e., post-Fall, which itself resulted from free will) because of both God’s infinitely merciful love and His omnipotence (in concert with His omniscience).

Cannot God in His condescending love something inoptimal, and choose to create it in order that He might be able to lavish even more grace on it?

Certainly. I would say He indeed did that by allowing the Fall. But I still tend to think it is the best possible world post-Fall, given our freedom.

. . . I would be wary of saying what God must know in order to accomplish His ends.

Yes, good point. I meant it in the sense of whatever logical necessity entails, since Christians can devoutly believe God is “bound” by the law of non-contradiction, just as we are.

Otherwise, we would be able to put a monkey wrench in the divine plan and the world would end up in a mess, rather than as the “new heaven and earth” which it is destined to be.

Could we? How? I presume God would prevent it in some way.

I meant this in the purely hypothetical sense of us having a radically free will that God couldn’t “work around.” He can prevent eschatological disaster either by eliminating our free wills or working His divine plan taking them into consideration in some way, albeit in a fashion which doesn’t undermine Himself as the ultimate Supreme, Sovereign Cause of all. There will always be paradox in this area of speculation.

I am not sure if there is anything we can do that would upset His plan in a way in which He would need middle knowledge to fix up. After all, suppose I wanted to blow up the world in a nuclear explosion, and I had access to the requisite button. God could still, surely, prevent me physically from pressing it or prevent the current from flowing along the wire, even without middle knowledge (indeed, in this case even without foreknowledge).

Certainly.

What I am trying to say is that without middle knowledge, God could still do much arranging in omniscience. And certainly He could, if He so willed, know what we would likely do in any given circumstance, and in the cases where He would foreknow that in some actual circumstance we would not do what was likely, He could always will in His omnipotence to miraculously prevent our action from bringing fruit contrary to His will.

But isn’t that still middle knowledge, being, as it is, a case of potential and circumstantial action? Maybe I am confused . . .

I am very sympathetic to your argument. I have a very hard time seeing how without middle knowledge God could arrange the universe in the way in which we believe He does. But at the same time, I do not want to make an inference from “I have a very hard time seeing how” to “It is impossible that.” God is beyond what I know. 

I’m the first to admit that we should not speak lightly or over-confidently of God’s prerogatives, actions, will, or other attributes. Thus — in this area particularly — I hold my opinions completely provisionally, always subject to overthrow by counter-argument or Church teaching to the contrary. The very fact that there are competing schools of thought in Catholicism lends itself to that interpretation. Thus, I have in all likelihood already overstated my case! A bad habit of mine . . .

My problem with middle knowledge is that I still do not know what it would mean to say something like “If A was not bitten by a dog at age ten, then he would have freely chosen to not be studying philosophy now.” I was bitten by a dog at age 10, and I am freely studying philosophy now. What does it mean to say that I would not have made a given free choice in different circumstances? 

Well, to us intellectually-finite and fallen beings in time it means precious little. But to an omniscient, perfect Supreme Being Who sees everything — actual and possible — at once in its fullness (being out of time), it has a considerable and evident meaning. We just can’t grasp it, given our manifest limitations. So we can posit these things of God under the broad category of omniscience (which we sort of, half-comprehend), but we can’t understand the full meaning of these things, according to the Bible’s teaching of God’s transcendence (I think, e.g., of the ending of Job), just as the flatlander can’t comprehend a third dimension.

Let me be more precise. If an agent acts freely, then it seems to me that it is the agent himself who determines the action. So if we take an actual (past, present or future) free action that I commit, the action is as it is because of me. I am responsible for it.

Yet God as Final Cause is “wrapped up in it” as well (cf. Acts 17:28, Col 1:17, Heb 1:3). E.g., we know that whatever good things we do are prompted by God’s grace: indeed must be. And even our evil acts are allowed by God, whereas He could have eliminated their occurrence altogether, by a number of means, as you mentioned.

But who is responsible for hypothetical actions?

No one, because they aren’t actual. But they can still be a meaningful construct of omniscience.

Suppose we want to say that if I weren’t bitten, then I would have chosen not to study philosophy (though of course it is not clear what connection, if any, there is between the antecedent and the consequent here). Who is responsible for the truth of this statement?

If true, it would seem to be God in His omniscience, in my opinion.

Since this statement is about a free act, it seems only a free agent can be responsible for it. What free agent is this statement about? Is it about me?

Yes.

If so, then this would mean I may be responsible for hypothetical sins I never committed, and also for hypothetical meritorious acts that I never committed.

No , not at all, because you are unnecessarily mixing foreknowledge and middle knowledge with human responsibility, the human and divine perspectives, and the potential and the actual. It is meaningless to link together things which really cannot be, by the nature of things.

I cannot see how I could be responsible for the truth of the statement “If I weren’t bitten, I would not have chosen to study philosophy” (assuming that this would indeed have been the case). But if I am not responsible, who is?

God, in some fashion. He would know the statement, if it is true. But I’m not sure it makes sense to say He is “responsible” for it.

I don’t want to say God, because that would make God responsible for my hypothetical sins. 

No, just as He was not responsible for the Fall and evil, which were as much a part of his sovereign plan as anything else.

So who? Chance? No, we are not fatalists or hazardists. I suppose the only one that is responsible is “my hypothetical self”, i.e., the self that I would have been had I not been bitten. But I have some trouble with placing responsibility on “my hypothetical self”. This trouble probably is not insurmountable, but it does make me uncomfortable with the notion.

One simply doesn’t have to make such a choice. The logic here doesn’t require it. You clearly aren’t responsible for acts you haven’t committed, and neither is God. He merely sees them, or else anticipates their possible occurrence and works His sovereign will in consideration of, and “around” them, if He should so desire.

A more difficult problem is with what I call type (1) middle knowledge, the knowledge of what persons who were never created would have done had they been created. This kind of middle knowledge is probably not needed for divine sovereignty, so perhaps there is no theological problem in denying it.

Yes, it’s hard to find any “practical application” for this stuff, isn’t it? At least from our severely limited point of view.

Here is a major part of the problem. There are presumably many, many (infinitely many?) possible people whom God has never created. Consider such a person. What determines God’s knowledge of what this person would have done? (A) Is it something inherent in God’s idea of this person? (B) Is it something inherent in God? (C) Or is it perhaps something contingent outside this hypothetical person?

All of the above?

In case (A), it seems (though maybe not necessarily, and if not, then this solves the whole problem) that by willing to actualize this person God would be actualizing a person who is logically necessitated (by the idea of him that God actualizes) to do what he will, contra free will. (One solution would be to say that these are persons who never will be actualized, and thus truths about them are qualitatively different from truths about persons who would be actualized; that’s a possibility that does not seem contradictory.)

Yes, I suppose I would take the course you have proposed, for lack of anything better!

In case (B), again free will contradicted.

I don’t think so, because God’s foreknowledge and our free will are not unalterably opposed to each other. Our free wills “work” within the bounds which God creates for them, much like characters in a novel. In other words, a hypothetical free will is not qualitatively different from an actual one (like ours).

Same for case (C).

Again, not if one accepts the paradoxical notion of a limited free will operating within the transcendent boundaries of the Divine Supreme Will, and also necessarily subject to the contingencies of the actions of other free agents and the course of nature.

Another solution is to suppose that these hypothetical persons do exist, but in some diminished sense. This seems unattractive.

Well, they don’t exist from our perspective, but just by virtue of the fact that they are hypotheticals in the “mind of God” makes them quite real indeed in some mysterious way.

. . . is there such a thing as the conditionally future? Does the very notion mean anything? I agree that God knows all actual truths and all possible truths, but can we even predicate truth and falsehood about futuribles?

I’m still having a difficult time differentiating between “possible truth” and “conditionally future.” To me they seem logically and essentially the same, so until they are distinguished to my satisfaction, I will treat them as identical propositions. As for truth or falsehood, I think it is meaningless to for us to apply that judgment to non-existent hypotheticals, but from God’s “vantage point” perhaps even these logical limitations vanish or are transformed.

[Ott]: “. . . Holy Writ teaches that God knows all things and hence also the merely possible [cites Est 14:14, 1 Cor 2:10, S. Th. I, 14,9] . . . “GOD ALSO KNOWS THE CONDITIONED FUTURE FREE ACTIONS WITH INFALLIBLE CERTAINTY (Scientia futuribilium). (SENT. COMMUNIS.)

What is “sent. communis.”? The common view of Catholic theologians? Is this binding on faith? If so, I will believe it. If not, I am not sure if I will.

Ott defines sententia communis as “doctrine, which in itself belongs to the field of the free opinions, but which is accepted by theologians generally.” (p.10) I don’t think this teaching could be binding, given that both Thomism and Molinism are acceptable and variant solutions to the “problem” of predestination and free will.

[Ott]: “That God possesses the certain knowledge of conditioned future free actions (futuribilia) may be positively proved from Scripture. Mt 11:21: ‘Woe to thee, Corozain! Woe to thee, Bethsaida! For if in Tyre and Sidon had been wrought the miracles that have been wrought in you, they had long ago done penance in sackcloth and ashes.'”

I forgot this text. But I am not completely sure that this judgment requires middle knowledge proper. After all, God could in His omniscience examine the reasoning that the inhabitants of Tyre and Sidon went through when they chose not to repent, and maybe a part of their reasoning was an implicit, “Ah, if only a good God would work for us a miracle, then we would repent, but since He didn’t, we won’t.”

Well, I think that’s stretching it a bit! Not as plausible as middle knowledge, in my opinion.

Cf. 1 Sam 23:1-13;

Here, if the people chose not to do what the prophecy said they would have done in the hypothetical case, presumably God could have forced them to do it, no?

He can always do whatever He wants to do, but I think, by and large, these instances are cases of foreknowledge and not predetermination. God knows the future whether or not He directly, absolutely, and singlehandedly causes it, or if we help to bring it about by our free choices. Many people (not referring to you) seem to casually assume that foreknowledge and predetermination are identical, but they are not. I think they need to ponder more about what it means for God to be outside of time, and also on the nature of secondary, subordinate causation. Too many unnecessary dichotomies (or linkages) are created.

Wis 4:11.

The text does not in the NAB say that the man would certainly have sinned had God not snatched him away. It seems that a reasonable interpretation is that he would have been sorely tempted and would likely have sinned.

Yes, I agree that is an equally plausible reading.

[Ott]: “Speculatively, the Divine foreknowing of conditioned future things is based > on the infinite perfection of the Divine knowing . . .

By itself this does not prove things, because the perfect divine knowing only knows those things which make sense. . . . So there is still the question whether “If X, then Y will freely do Z” is a meaningful sentence. If so, then God knows it. If not, then God simply knows that it is meaningless.

Well, I agree with Ott here, and I don’t believe it has been demonstrated that knowledge of such conditional things is meaningless, any more than knowledge of the possible is.

The case you paint shows me that more likely than not, God having middle knowledge is a part of our faith. But not having any authoritative reason to believe it, and finding the doctrine difficult, I am not sure if I should believe it.

Well, it is clear that you have every right as a Catholic to adopt an alternative scenario which you find more plausible. And no one is to look down upon you for doing so.

. . . I incline towards middle knowledge because it does seem as if Catholic devotion may well assume it. But I am not completely sure if it does.

I commend you for grappling with the issue and for making a conscientious, thoughtful decision.

Hmm. You build an impressive case. I just don’t know for sure if the opinion really is a part of the faith, something that we are required to believe.

Not required, but apparently it is the consensus, majority view.

I worry that the Patristic view (and I do not know if it was unanimous—if it really was unanimous, I will accept it) . . .

I don’t know. Ott appears to think that it was.

. . . may have been based on the simple syllogism: For every proposition P, God knows if it is true or false. [major] Sentences of the form “If X happens, then Y will freely do Z” are propositions. [minor] Therefore, God knows for every sentence of the form “If X happens, then Y will freeely do Z” if the sentence is true.

Again, I don’t know, but I would accept the above syllogism. The minor premise is true, I think, because God’s knowledge of these potentialities is infinite and infallible. Thus, such things are indeed propositions in the mind of God. And Scripture, especially in its conditional prophetical scenarios, appears to me to concur with this opinion.

If this was the reasoning that the Fathers were engaging in, then I agree with the major premiss, and it seems that it is the major premiss which is the theologically heavy one, but my whole difficulty is whether the minor premiss is true.

Perhaps I have persuaded you?

Like I said, on the basis of your case I incline towards middle knowledge.

Well, this has been some of the most enjoyable, thought-provoking philosophical theology I have engaged in for a long, long time. It’s much more fun to do it in a true, open-minded spirit of inquiry, rather than accompanied by the animosity and bigotry I was subjected to in my last, similar debate with a Calvinist, on supralapsarianism and the consequences of Calvinism vis-a-vis God’s character attributes (not that all Calvinists are that way!).

***

(originally 1997)

Photo credit: In January 2002, a dull star in an obscure constellation suddenly became 600,000 times more luminous than our Sun, temporarily making it the brightest star in our Milky Way galaxy. The mysterious star, called V838 Monocerotis, has long since faded back to obscurity. But observations by NASA’s Hubble Space Telescope of a phenomenon called a “light echo” around the star have uncovered remarkable new features. These details promise to provide astronomers with a CAT-scan-like probe of the three-dimensional structure of shells of dust surrounding an aging star. [public domain / Wikimedia Commons]

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2018-09-11T16:22:16-04:00

 

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The Catholic Church, following St. Augustine (e.g., Grace and Free Will, 1, 1; Sermon 169, 11, 13), accepts predestination of the elect to heaven, but also affirms the freedom of the human will, thus staking out a position distinct from Calvinism. Predestination to hell, in Catholicism, always involves man’s free will, and foreseen sins, so that man is ultimately responsible for his own damnation, not God (double predestination is rejected).

God is sovereign, in our view, every bit as much as in Protestantism (particularly Calvinism), as will amply be demonstrated below. All that is disputed are the intricacies of the grace / free will antinomy, which is one of the most mysterious and difficult questions in the history of both Christian theology and theistic philosophy. Of course, the allowance of free will is also present in Lutheran, Anglican, Methodist, most charismatic, non-denominational and Baptist theologies, etc.

The Catholic Church affirms predestination as a de fide dogma (the highest level of binding theological certainty), while at the same time affirming free will and the possibility of falling away from the faith. The following material (excepting my bracketed interjections) is from Catholic theologian Ludwig Ott’s Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma (Rockford, Illinois: TAN Books, 1974 {orig. 1952}, 242-245) ought to be most helpful for Protestants seeking to understand what Catholics believe about this ever-mysterious, controversial, complex, highly abstract theological question:

* * * * *
1) GOD, BY HIS ETERNAL RESOLVE OF WILL, HAS PREDETERMINED CERTAIN MEN TO ETERNAL BLESSEDNESS (De fide)

De fide = “of faith” – dogmas are absolutely binding on all Catholics]
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This doctrine is proposed by the Ordinary and General Teaching of the Church as a truth of Revelation. The doctrinal definitions of the Council of Trent presuppose it . . . The reality of Predestination is clearly attested to in Rom 8:29 et seq: . . . cf. Mt 25:34, Jn 10:27 et seq., Acts 13:48, Eph 1:4 et seq. . . . Predestination is a part of the Eternal Divine Plan of Providence.

2) BASIS OF PREDESTINATION

a) The Problem

The main difficulty . . . lies in the question whether God’s eternal resolve of Predestination has been taken with or without consideration of the merits of the man (postorante praevisa merita).

Only incomplete Predestination to grace is independent of every merit (ante praevisa merita), as the first grace cannot be merited. In the same way, complete Predestination to grace and glory conjointly is independent of every merit, as the first grace cannot be merited, and the consequent graces, as well as the merits acquired with these graces and their reward, depend like the links of a chain, on the first grace . . .

b) Attempts at Solution

The Thomists, the Augustinians, the majority of the Scotists and also individual older Molinists (Suarez, St. Bellarmine) teach an absolute Predestination (ad gloriam tantum), therefore ante praevisa merita. According to them, God freely resolves from all Eternity, without consideration of the merits of man’s grace, to call certain men to beatification and therefore to bestow on them graces which will infallibly secure the execution of the Divine Decree (ordo intentionis). In time God first gives to the predestined effective graces and then eternal bliss as a reward for the merits which flow from their free cooperation with grace (ordo executionis). The ordo intentionis and the ordo executionis are in inverse relation to each other (glory-grace; grace-glory).

Most of the Molinists, and also St. Francis de Sales (+1622), teach a conditioned Predestination (ad gloriam tantum), that is, postand propter praevisa merita. According to them, God by His scientia media, sees beforehand how men would freely react to various orders of grace. In the light of this knowledge He chooses, according to His free pleasure a fixed and definite order of grace. Now by His scientia visionis, He knows infallibly in advance what use the individual man will make of the grace bestowed on him. He elects for eternal bliss those who by virtue of their foreseen merits perseveringly cooperate with grace, while He determines for eternal punishment of hell, those who, on account of their foreseen demerits, deny their cooperation. The ordo intentionis and the ordo executionis coincide (grace-glory; grace-glory).

Both attempts at explanation are ecclesiastically permissible. The scriptural proofs are not decisive for either side. The Thomists quote above all passages from the Letter to the Romans, in which the Divine factor in salvation is brought strongly to the foreground (Rom 8:29; 9:11-13, 9:20 et seq.) . . . The Molinists invoke the passages which attest the universality of the Divine desire for salvation, especially 1 Tim 2:4, as well as the sentence to be pronounced by the Judge of the World (Mt 25:34-36), in which the works of mercy are given as ground for the acceptance into the Heavenly Kingdom. But that these are also the basis for the ‘preparation’ for the Kingdom, that is, for the eternal resolve of Predestination, cannot be definitely proved from them . . .

While the pre-Augustinian tradition is in favour of the Molinistic explanation, St. Augustine, at least in his later writings, is more in favour of the Thomistic explanation. The Thomist view emphasizes God’s universal causality while the other view stresses the universality of the Divine salvific will, man’s freedom and his cooperation in his salvation. The difficulties remaining on both sides prove that Predestination even for reason enlightened by faith, is an unfathomable mystery (Rom 11:33 ff.).

3) PROPERTIES OF PREDESTINATION

a) Immutability

The resolve of Predestination, as an act of the divine knowledge and will, is as immutable as the Divine Essence itself. The number of those who are registered in the Book of Life (Phil 4:3, Rev 17:8; cf. Lk 10:20) is formally and materially fixed, that is, God knows and determines with infallible certainty in advance, how many and which men will be saved . . .

b) Uncertainty

The Council of Trent declared against Calvin, that certainty in regard to one’s Predestination can be attained by special Revelation only . . . Holy Scripture enjoins man to work out his salvation in fear and trembling (Phil 2:12). He who imagines that he will stand should take care lest he fall (1 Cor 10:12). In spite of this uncertainty there are signs of Predetermination which indicate a high probability of one’s Predestination, e.g., a persevering practice of the virtues recommended in the Eight Beatitudes, frequent reception of Holy Communion, active love of one’s neighbor, love for Christ and for the Church . . .

[For scriptural proofs against absolute assurance of salvation I submit the following passages: 1 Cor 9:27; 10:12; Gal 5:1, 4; Phil 3:11-14; 1 Tim 4:1; 5:15; Heb 3:12-14; 6:4-6; 2 Pet 2:15, 20-21. These I consider the most compelling, but there are many others as well: e.g.: 1 Sam 11:6; 18:11-12; Ezek 18:24; 33:12-13, 18; Gal 4:9; Col 1:23; Heb 6:11-12; 10:23, 26, 29, 36, 39; 12:15; Rev 2:4-5.]

[Many evangelical Protestants claim to have an absolute “assurance,” but when all is said and done, both biblically and epistemologically, they simply can’t attain to this certitude, and are no more “certain” than a devout Catholic or Orthodox is. Such claims are simply unproven and unprovable. In other words, Protestant “assurance” involves the following “argument” in a vicious circle: in order to possess assurance of salvation you must believe that you have salvation. This has been called “fiducial faith,” and is completely subjective, every bit as much as the Mormon “burning in the bosom.” Martin Luther himself illustrates the incoherence of this innovation:

We must day by day struggle towards greater and greater certainty . . . Everyone should therefore accustom himself resolutely to the persuasion that he is in a state of grace . . . Should he feel a doubt, then let him exercise faith; he must beat down his doubts and acquire certainty . . . The matter of justification is difficult and delicate, not indeed in itself, for in itself it is as certain as can be, but in our regard; of this I have frequent experience. (In Hartmann Grisar, Luther, London: 1917, vol. 4, 437-443) ]

4) CONCEPT AND REALITY OF REPROBATION

By Reprobation is understood the eternal Resolve of God’s Will to exclude certain rational creatures from eternal bliss. While God, by His grace, positively cooperates in the supernatural merits, which lead to beatification, He merely permits sin, which leads to eternal damnation.

Regarding the content of the resolve of Reprobation, a distinction is made between positive and negative Reprobation, according as the Divine resolve of Reprobation has for its object condemnation to the eternal punishment of hell, or exclusion from the Beatific Vision. Having regard to the reason for Reprobation, a distinction is made between conditioned and unconditioned (absolute) Reprobation, insofar as the Divine resolve of Reprobation is dependent on, or independent of the prevision of future demerits.

GOD, BY AN ETERNAL RESOLVE OF HIS WILL, PREDESTINES CERTAIN MEN, ON ACCOUNT OF THEIR FORESEEN SINS, TO ETERNAL REJECTION (De fide)

The reality of Reprobation is not formally defined, but it is the general teaching of the Church.

5) POSITIVE REPROBATION

Heretical Predestinationism in its various forms (the Southern Gallic priest Lucidus in the 5th century; the monk Gottschalk in the 9th century, according to reports of his opponents, which, however, find no confirmation in his recently re-discovered writings; Wycliffe, Hus, and esp. Calvin), teaches a positive predetermination to sin, and an unconditional Predestination to the eternal punishment of hell, that is, without consideration of future demerits. This was rejected as false doctrine by the Particular Synods of Orange, Quiercy & Valence and by the Council of Trent. Unconditioned positive Reprobation leads to a denial of the universality of the Divine Desire for salvation, and of the Redemption, and contradicts the Justice and Holiness of God as well as the freedom of man.

According to the teaching of the Church, there is a conditioned positive Reprobation, that is, it occurs with consideration of foreseen future demerits (post et propter praevisa demerita). The conditional nature of Positive Reprobation is demanded by the generality of the Divine Resolve of salvation. This excludes God’s desiring in advance the damnation of certain men (cf. 1 Tim 2:4, Ezek 33:11, 2 Pet 3:9) . . .

6) NEGATIVE REPROBATION

In the question of Reprobation, the Thomist view favours not an absolute, but only a negative Reprobation. This is conceived by most Thomists as non-election to eternal bliss (non-electio), together with the Divine resolve to permit some rational creatures to fall into sin, and thus by their own guilt to lose eternal salvation. In contrast to the absolute Positive Reprobation of the Predestinarians, Thomists insist on the universality of the Divine Resolve of Salvation and Redemption, the allocation of sufficient graces to the reprobate, and the freedom of man’s will. However, it is difficult to find an intrinsic concordance between unconditioned non-election and the universality of the Divine Resolve of salvation. In practice, the unconditioned negative Reprobation of the Thomists involves the same result as the unconditioned positive Reprobation of the heretical Predestinarians, since outside Heaven and Hell there is no third final state.

Like the Resolve of Predestination the Divine Resolve of Reprobation is immutable, but, without special revelation, its incidence is unknown to men.

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(originally 1996)

Photo credit: image by uroburos (8-18-15) [PixabayCC0 Creative Commons license]

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2018-09-10T11:58:35-04:00

A Reformed Protestant friend of mine, “Pilgrimsarbour” (OPC), asked some questions, and I clarified and made other relevant comments. His words will be in blue.

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Catholicism sees justification as an ongoing process (synergistic) which does not cease even after the death of the individual (purgatory). Protestantism sees justification as a one-time declaration by God which does not involve our work to attain it (monergistic). The Protestant would call the entire process, including justification, salvation, the component parts being: 

1) justification

2) sanctification 

3) glorification (consummation)

The Catholic, from what I can tell, refers to the whole process of what we call salvation as justification, that is, a “making just,” which is hardly distinguishable from their understanding of sanctification. However, Protestantism does see sanctification as synergistic once the heart has been made anew in and by Christ, without our “help.” Once resurrected the formerly dead sinner’s will is drawn to Christ and enabled by His Holy Spirit to grow in grace, which does, in fact, require our cooperation to produce the best results. So there are synergistic elements in Protestant theology, but just not in that initial step of justification.

To use (mostly) pilgrim’s words:

Catholicism does see initial justification as monergistic and sanctification as synergistic once the heart has been made anew in and by Christ, without our “help.” Once resurrected the formerly dead sinner’s will is drawn to Christ and enabled by His Holy Spirit to grow in grace, which does, in fact, require our cooperation to produce the best results.

Not a whole lot of difference, is there?, when put this way. Yet anti-Catholics would place us in a position of having a false, non-salvific gospel and a theology not even fit to be called Christian.

Many Protestants (and especially the anti-Catholic ones) are prisoners of “either/or” false dichotomies and false premises and thus cannot comprehend Catholic teaching, which is based on biblical / Hebraic paradox and “both/and” thinking. For them, that equates to “synergy” which in turn is Pelagian and a false gospel of supposed works-salvation. John Calvin did the same thing.

I wasn’t aware that there is anything monergistic in Catholicism. As far as I knew, everything the Catholic believer does must be in cooperation with the Father, including justification. If I have been wrong about this, please direct me to something in the catechism which will help me to understand what you’re saying. My edition is the Doubleday/Image publication 1995, although I just purchased it new last year.

A non-Pelagian position on grace is necessarily monergistic at the outset. The person with grace then has the power to cooperate with grace by working together with God, including for salvation (as I recently wrote about). Everything is caused by this grace; without it we could do no good thing. Catholics and Protestants agree on that. It is only the cooperation aspect and how we classify stuff where there is disagreement.

I have made a handy chart of Trent’s teaching on justification, with summaries. Pelagianism is strictly ruled out:

CANON I.-If any one saith, that man may be justified before God by his own works, whether done through the teaching of human nature, or that of the law, without the grace of God through Jesus Christ; let him be anathema.

CANON II.-If any one saith, that the grace of God, through Jesus Christ, is given only for this, that man may be able more easily to live justly, and to merit eternal life, as if, by free will without grace, he were able to do both, though hardly indeed and with difficulty; let him be anathema.

Man can do absolutely nothing to obtain initial justification (a position that is also contrary to semi-Pelagianism); therefore, at this point it is monergistic:

CANON III.-If any one saith, that without the prevenient inspiration of the Holy Ghost, and without his help, man can believe, hope, love, or be penitent as he ought, so as that the grace of Justification may be bestowed upon him; let him be anathema.

[see also Decree on Justification: chapter 5]

Man’s free will to do any good is “moved and excited by God”: at which time man can then cooperate, in this grace:

CANON IV.-If any one saith, that man’s free will moved and excited by God, by assenting to God exciting and calling, nowise co-operates towards disposing and preparing itself for obtaining the grace of Justification; that it cannot refuse its consent, if it would, but that, as something inanimate, it does nothing whatever and is merely passive; let him be anathema.

Justification is by grace alone (sola gratia): Decree on Justification: chapter 8; Canon 10:

CANON X.-If any one saith, that men are just without the justice of Christ, whereby He merited for us to be justified; or that it is by that justice itself that they are formally just; let him be anathema.

Good works and merit proceed wholly from the grace of God through the work of Jesus Christ on our behalf (not from ourselves). They are necessary but they do not earn salvation, which is by grace alone: Decree on Justification: chapter 16; Canons 18, 19, 20, 24, 26, 32, 33.

Vatican I expressed our doctrine in a beautiful way:

Wherefore faith itself, even when it does not work by charity [Gal 5:6], is in itself a gift of God, and the act of faith is a work pertaining to salvation, by which man yields voluntary obedience to God Himself, by assenting to and cooperating with His grace, which he is able to resist (can. v). (Dogmatic Constitution on the Catholic Faith, ch. III, “Of Faith”)

Catechism of the Catholic Church:

1987 The grace of the Holy Spirit has the power to justify us, that is, to cleanse us from our sins and to communicate to us “the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ” and through Baptism: . . .

Since most Catholics are baptized as infants, insofar as the infant is concerned, this justification and regeneration is completely monergistic: an action of God alone. One could say others are standing in for the child — I believe that Reformed would agree — , but that is scarcely different from a Protestant praying that someone would be “saved / justified” — God uses human beings somewhere in the process.

1989 The first work of the grace of the Holy Spirit is conversion, effecting justification in accordance with Jesus’ proclamation at the beginning of the Gospel: “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.” Moved by grace, man turns toward God and away from sin, thus accepting forgiveness and righteousness from on high. . . .

Grace comes first, causing conversion. Man is “moved by grace.” At that point it is monergistic.

1992 Justification has been merited for us by the Passion of Christ who offered himself on the cross as a living victim, holy and pleasing to God, and whose blood has become the instrument of atonement for the sins of all men. Justification is conferred in Baptism, the sacrament of faith. . . .

1996 Our justification comes from the grace of God. Grace is favor, the free and undeserved help that God gives us to respond to his call to become children of God, adoptive sons, partakers of the divine nature and of eternal life.

1998 This vocation to eternal life is supernatural. It depends entirely on God’s gratuitous initiative, for he alone can reveal and give himself. It surpasses the power of human intellect and will, as that of every other creature.

Again, monergistic in its initial stage . . .

1999 The grace of Christ is the gratuitous gift that God makes to us of his own life, infused by the Holy Spirit into our soul to heal it of sin and to sanctify it. . . .

2001 The preparation of man for the reception of grace is already a work of grace. This latter is needed to arouse and sustain our collaboration in justification through faith, and in sanctification through charity. God brings to completion in us what he has begun, . . .

2008 The merit of man before God in the Christian life arises from the fact that God has freely chosen to associate man with the work of his grace. The fatherly action of God is first on his own initiative, and then follows man’s free acting through his collaboration, so that the merit of good works is to be attributed in the first place to the grace of God, then to the faithful. Man’s merit, moreover, itself is due to God, for his good actions proceed in Christ, from the predispositions and assistance given by the Holy Spirit.

2009 Filial adoption, in making us partakers by grace in the divine nature, can bestow true merit on us as a result of God’s gratuitous justice. . . .

2011 The charity of Christ is the source in us of all our merits before God. Grace, by uniting us to Christ in active love, ensures the supernatural quality of our acts and consequently their merit before God and before men. The saints have always had a lively awareness that their merits were pure grace. . . .

2017 The grace of the Holy Spirit confers upon us the righteousness of God. Uniting us by faith and Baptism to the Passion and Resurrection of Christ, the Spirit makes us sharers in his life.

2020 Justification has been merited for us by the Passion of Christ. It is granted us through Baptism. It conforms us to the righteousness of God, who justifies us. It has for its goal the glory of God and of Christ, and the gift of eternal life. It is the most excellent work of God’s mercy.

2022 The divine initiative in the work of grace precedes, prepares, and elicits the free response of man. Grace responds to the deepest yearnings of human freedom, calls freedom to cooperate with it, and perfects freedom.

2023 Sanctifying grace is the gratuitous gift of his life that God makes to us; it is infused by the Holy Spirit into the soul to heal it of sin and to sanctify it.

2027 No one can merit the initial grace which is at the origin of conversion. . . .

1266 The Most Holy Trinity gives the baptized sanctifying grace, the grace of justification:

– enabling them to believe in God, to hope in him, and to love him through the theological virtues; . . .

1250 . . . The sheer gratuitousness of the grace of salvation is particularly manifest in infant Baptism. . . .

1727 The beatitude of eternal life is a gratuitous gift of God. It is supernatural, as is the grace that leads us there.

The terminology of men “earning salvation” is false if by it we mean Pelagianism or works-salvation. It is true in terms of cooperative merit. God gives us the grace to participate and work together with Him. Merit is God crowning His own gifts, as Augustine says. He wants us to participate in the thing, but it is all by grace and never without it.

Entirely biblical . . . but many Protestants can’t grasp this because they are in bondage to “either/or” unbiblical thinking and inability to grasp biblical paradox. Protestantism (but especially Calvinism) is shot-through with this annoying deficiency.

I get very tired of it, and I reached that stage long ago, because it was so clear to me what caused the problems in discussing this whole area: false and unbiblical “either/or” assumptions, and inability to accept patently obvious biblical paradox and synergy.

If man does anything, in the “either/or” mentality, God does nothing, and it is works-salvation. It’s all or nothing. God must do all. The problem is that the Bible says many times that we do do stuff, in and under God’s grace. It doesn’t dichotomize men’s actions and God’s grace, as men do, following the traditions of men. The Bible supports Catholic positions again and again, and systematically.

***

(originally 1-7-10)

Photo credit: image by Maxpower148 (Feb. 2018) [PixabayCC0 Creative Commons license]

***

2018-09-08T18:58:55-04:00

This dialogue took place on the Lutheran blog Three Hierarchies, underneath the post, “Reformed and Roman Catholic doctrine as compromise platforms.” Professional historian CPA’s words will be in blue; Eric Phillips’ words in green, and Tom R’s in purple.

* * * * *

So apparently, Catholic teaching explicit states that those are justified who merely believe, as a set of facts that has nothing to do with their lives, the church’s creed, as long as they sincerely try to be a good person (as defined by Christian moral teachings) and avoid mortal sin.

It does? That’s news to me. You flip it around so that we Catholics are the ones who believe in imputed justification (“those are justified who merely believe”) and then hint that we are semi-Pelagian?

I don’t know where you get this. A snippet from the Catholic Encyclopedia is not Trent. Why is it that you never cite the very thing you are ostensibly talking about (Trent)? I find this to be very shoddy reasoning; well below your usual high standard.

Going back to my initial point: this line of reasoning is also beyond silly in light of the simple fact that Catholic soteriology explicitly joins justification and sanctification, so that it is impossible to make out that they can be separated in the sort of “imputation / easy believism with a Catholic works twist” that you try to unsuccessfully pull off.

It seems to me such an elementary point that I am truly baffled how you could have missed it. You didn’t trouble yourself to cite Trent itself with regard to how it is supposedly a “compromise platform,” but, tell ya what, since you are a nice guy, I’ll save you the trouble and do it for you:

Decree on Justification

CHAPTER VII.

What the justification of the impious is, and what are the causes thereof.

This disposition, or preparation, is followed by Justification itself, which is not remission of sins merely, but also the sanctification and renewal of the inward man, through the voluntary reception of the grace, and of the gifts, whereby man of unjust becomes just, and of an enemy a friend, that so he may be an heir according to hope of life everlasting.

Of this Justification the causes are these: the final cause indeed is the glory of God and of Jesus Christ, and life everlasting; while the efficient cause is a merciful God who washes and sanctifies gratuitously, signing, and anointing with the holy Spirit of promise, who is the pledge of our inheritance; but the meritorious cause is His most beloved only-begotten, our Lord Jesus Christ, who, when we were enemies, for the exceeding charity wherewith he loved us, merited Justification for us by His most holy Passion on the wood of the cross, and made satisfaction for us unto God the Father; the instrumental cause is the sacrament of baptism, which is the sacrament of faith, without which (faith) no man was ever justified; lastly, the alone formal cause is the justice of God, not that whereby He Himself is just, but that whereby He maketh us just, that, to wit, with which we being endowed by Him, are renewed in the spirit of our mind, and we are not only reputed, but are truly called, and are, just, receiving justice within us, each one according to his own measure, which the Holy Ghost distributes to every one as He wills, and according to each one’s proper disposition and co-operation. For, although no one can be just, but he to whom the merits of the Passion of our Lord Jesus Christ are communicated, yet is this done in the said justification of the impious, when by the merit of that same most holy Passion, the charity of God is poured forth, by the Holy Spirit, in the hearts of those that are justified, and is inherent therein: whence, man, through Jesus Christ, in whom he is ingrafted, receives, in the said justification, together with the remission of sins, all these (gifts) infused at once, faith, hope, and charity. For faith, unless hope and charity be added thereto, neither unites man perfectly with Christ, nor makes him a living member of His body. For which reason it is most truly said, that Faith without works is dead and profitless; and, In Christ Jesus neither circumcision, availeth anything, nor uncircumcision, but faith which worketh by charity. This faith, Catechumen’s beg of the Church-agreeably to a tradition of the apostles-previously to the sacrament of Baptism; when they beg for the faith which bestows life everlasting, which, without hope and charity, faith cannot bestow: whence also do they immediately hear that word of Christ; If thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. Wherefore, when receiving true and Christian justice, they are bidden, immediately on being born again, to preserve it pure and spotless, as the first robe given them through Jesus Christ in lieu of that which Adam, by his disobedience, lost for himself and for us, that so they may bear it before the judgment-seat of our Lord Jesus Christ, and may have life everlasting.

CHAPTER VIII.

In what manner it is to be understood, that the impious is justified by faith, and gratuitously.

And whereas the Apostle saith, that man is justified by faith and freely, those words are to be understood in that sense which the perpetual consent of the Catholic Church hath held and expressed; to wit, that we are therefore said to be justified by faith, because faith is the beginning of human salvation, the foundation, and the root of all Justification; without which it is impossible to please God, and to come unto the fellowship of His sons: but we are therefore said to be justified freely, because that none of those things which precede justification-whether faith or works-merit the grace itself of justification. For, if it be a grace, it is not now by works, otherwise, as the same Apostle says, grace is no more grace.

Now of course the Lutheran goes on to quibble with merit and perseverance in said justification, lest it be lost. But the quibble is ultimately not with Catholics, it is with the likes of St. Paul, who expresses these things in far more Catholic terms than Lutheran. He doesn’t seem to think that his justification is in the past, and his salvation already attained. For example:

1 Corinthians 9:27 but I pommel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified.

1 Corinthians 10:12 Therefore let any one who thinks that he stands take heed lest he fall.

Philippians 2:12-13 Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; for God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.

Philippians 3:11-14 that if possible I may attain the resurrection from the dead. Not that I have already obtained this or am already perfect; but I press on to make it my own, because Christ Jesus has made me his own. Brethren, I do not consider that I have made it my own . . . I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.

The Apostle Paul doesn’t arbitrarily separate justification from sanctification, or man’s works from God’s grace that enables them (as Lutherans arbitrarily do, creating unbiblical false dichotomies):

1 Corinthians 3:8-9 He who plants and he who waters are equal, and each shall receive his wages according to his labor. For we are God’s fellow workers; you are God’s field, God’s building.

1 Corinthians 15:10 But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace toward me was not in vain. On the contrary, I worked harder than any of them, though it was not I, but the grace of God which is with me.

2 Corinthians 6:1 Working together with him, then, we entreat you not to accept the grace of God in vain.

St. Peter agrees (as we would expect the first pope to do):

2 Peter 1:10 Therefore, brethren, be the more zealous to confirm your call and election, for if you do this you will never fall;

Former Lutheran Louis Bouyer highlights the Lutheran biblical difficulty here:

The further Luther advanced in his conflict with other theologians, then with Rome, then with the whole of contemporary Catholicism and finally with the Catholicism of every age, the more closely we see him identifying his affirmation about ‘sola gratia’ with a particular theory, known as extrinsic justification. That is to say, he himself unites two statements so closely that they become inseparable – one an affirmation, grace alone saves us; the second a negation, it changes nothing in us in so doing. To recall a simile he himself popularised, the grace of God envelops us as in a cloak, but this grace leaves us exactly as we were. The sinner, after receiving grace and so saved, is no less a sinner than before . . .

Justification by faith is not nearly so important to St. Paul as to Luther, but has been forcibly crammed by the latter into texts which in fact do not mention it . . . Without the least doubt, grace, for St. Paul, however freely given, involves what he calls ‘the new creation’, the appearance in us of a ‘new man’, created in justice and holiness. So far from suppressing the efforts of man, or making them a matter of indifference, or at least irrelevant to salvation, he himself tells us to ‘work out your salvation with fear and trembling’, at the very moment when he affirms that ‘. . . knowing that it is God who works in you both to will and to accomplish’. These two expressions say better than any other that all is grace in our salvation, but at the same time grace is not opposed to human acts and endeavour in order to attain salvation, but arouses them and exacts their performance . . .

Extrinsic justification, a justification independent of any interior change, of any new capability given to man to perform acts pleasing of themselves to God, is so far from being a Pauline doctrine that it is quite irreconcilable with the whole body of his teaching.

Calvin . . . was quite conscious of this, and applied himself with some success to correcting Luther on this point. None the less, the clear-cut distinction he tried to draw between justification and sanctification, while willingly admitting that they are inseparable in fact, cannot be maintained in a scientific exegesis. Scripture, even St. Paul alone, apart from the evidence of the four Gospels, sweeps aside the last dialectical device for safeguarding the theory of extrinsic justification . . .

The uneasiness felt by Protestant systems opposed to Catholicism is nowhere so evident than in the long controversy on the meaning in St. Paul of the word ‘dikaioo,’ to justify. All Protestant exegetes, anxious to safeguard the expressions used by Luther and Calvin, set out to show that it can only mean ‘to declare just’, not ‘to make just’; that is, it applies merely to extrinsic justice, which has nothing real to correspond with it in the person justified. Nevertheless, modern scientific exegesis unanimously acknowledges that the word can only mean ‘to declare officially just someone who is so in reality’. Even the idea of the Word of God creating what he says by the act of saying it – so well drawn out by Barth from the entire Bible – would be enough to show that God makes just whom he ‘declares just’, even if he were not so beforehand, by the very fact of his declaration, so the opposition set up is without meaning. (The Spirit and Forms of Protestantism, translated by A. V. Littledale, London: Harvill Press, 1956, pp. 170, 175-176, 180-181)

I’ve put together a “a handy summary of Tridentine soteriology” that may be helpful for Lutherans to actually grasp what Trent teaches about justification and salvation (which would be a nice change). 

Of course God makes us just. Forensic justification isn’t the only thing we ever get; it’s just the thing that gives us confidence of salvation here and now, while we are still sinning. At present we wear the white robe. In eternity, we will be like Him.

[ . . . ]

One interesting line of argument that I’ve noted sometimes emerges in theological debates with Catholics who have fallen away from Evangelical Christianity: here’s a summary…

Thanks for the qualification and nuance.

“Even when I was a Protestant, I gradually became aware that only the Catholic Church had preserved the Apostolic teaching in its fullness. So I converted.”

“What then would you do if, after you became Catholic, you realised that the Catholic Church in fact had fallen into some heresy, or if it espoused some novel doctrine that you couldn’t reconcile with Scripture? Would you leave the Catholic Church?”

“Of course not. Instead, I would submit my own private judgment to that of the Magisterium. To think that I, a mere layperson, could accuse the Church itself of error is laughable.”

Again, this doesn’t apply to me, or, I would say, any thinking Catholic. What you describe is a blind faith that isn’t worth the “ink” to write “blind faith”.

If the Catholic Church truly fell away and became radically unbiblical (say, like the Episcopalians now have), I would leave it if there was something better (I’ve written about this before). I imagine I would become Orthodox as the next best choice. But I don’t see that there is any perfect choice. I think that the Orthodox compromise the received apostolic and biblical teaching on contraception and divorce. Who among Protestant denominations have preserved those thngs? There might be some dinky storefront one somewhere.

So: the ex-Prot is arguing both that (a) individuals are equipped to pronounce that a Protestant church’s teachings don’t fit with the Apostles’ teachings, but also that (a) individuals are not equipped to pronounce that the Catholic church’s teachings don’t fit with the Apostles’ teachings.

We are equipped enough to understand what a documented received teaching passed down from the apostles is. Take, again, the issue of contraception. It is widely known that all major denominations opposed it as grace sin until 1930, when the Anglicans started allowing it in “hard cases” (gee, that sounds like familiar rhetoric! Where have we heard that before?).

Now, does it take a Th.D. in theology to grasp that fact? No; it’s rather simply ascertained. It is historical fact. This was apostolic teaching. This was patristic and medieval teaching. It was “Reformation” teaching. It was post-“Reformation” Protestant teaching till 1930. It is what it is. A = A. So to deny this is to depart from apostolic doctrine.

Newman as an Anglican says “to be deep in history is to cease to be Protestant”, but if as a Catholic he ever started wondering “Hey, where was the Papacy for the first 700+ years,

Are you saying that people like Pope St. Leo the Great and Pope st. Gregory the Great weren’t popes? That would be about as ahistorical as I have ever seen. Even rabid anti-Catholics date the “papacy proper” from one of these two men, whose teaching on the papacy was very explicit.

and how come the New Testament writers got the Marian Doctrines so wrong?”,

They did? Where?

he would have had to suppress such heretical thoughts on pain of damnation. (It’s actually a very effect meme – the “lockout principle”.)

Of course, Protestantism is no different. If you are a conservative Lutheran, go to your pastor and say you think baptism and the Eucharist are purely symbolic and see how well that goes over. You would have to suppress such “heretical thoughts” also and if your pastor was consistent, you would find your formerly Lutheran butt out on the pavement in front of St. Stephen’s Lutheran Church in Missouri or Wisconsin.

So when a Catholic argues that Catholicism best fits with history and Scripture, it’s like someone telling me that his house is red, not grey…. but then also saying that he’s colourblind and can’t tell red from gray.

Very interesting. Folks can either back up their views from history or they can’t. I think I can, or at least I can to an extent that I don’t see that any other claims to be heirs of apostolic and patristic Christianity are nearly as plausible as the Catholic claims.

As for the semantical discussion about the definition of “faith”: that bores me (as “straining the gnat” semantics generally do). I’m much more interested in the entire Catholic soteriology vs. the entire Lutheran soteriology: the concepts, not the words. We’ve already been over how Catholics generally define the word “faith” differently, and that our “hope” is roughly equivalent to your use of “faith.” Your claim had to do with the overall soteriology, and you misrepresented ours. I countered it with a long passage from Trent, that I don’t believe you or anyone else has since interacted with.

I have long argued, that in a very real practical concrete sense, Lutheran, Calvinist, and Catholic soteriologies are largely the same. When one gets away from the abstractions and word games, all agree on the following:

1) We are saved by grace alone.

2) Good works must follow in the Christian life.

3) Those who persist in extremely serious sin and show no fruits of repentance will quite potentially be damned.

Period. We can define the relationships differently, separate sanctification from justification, discuss imputation and infusion, bring the Holy Spirit and regeneration into it, wrangle over merit and the nature of divine-human cooperation, argue about whether human nature is intrinsically sinful, etc., etc. In the end, the above simple, non-theological, non-philosophical scenario still applies.

The Catholic says that if good works aren’t present, then the person isn’t justified, because “faith without works is dead.” The Lutheran at some point, I believe, would question someone who showed no fruits of good works, too, based on sentiments such as the following, from Martin Luther:

We must therefore certainly maintain that where there is no faith there also can be no good works; and conversely, that there is no faith where there are no good works. Therefore faith and good works should be so closely joined together that the essence of the entire Christian life consists in both. (in Paul Althaus, The Theology of Martin Luther, 246)

Accordingly, if good works do not follow, it is certain that this faith in Christ does not dwell in our heart, but dead faith. (Althaus, ibid., 246; also Luther’s Works, 34, 111; cf. 34, 161)

Reformed theology says much the same, and Wesleyan theology is very much Catholic, in how it merges or at least brings in very close affinity, sanctification and justification.

This is what I like to emphasize, and I wish we all could do that, rather than wrangle about all the abstractions. The Christian life can bring all the diverse Christian theologies together in the very practical, “Jewish” way above.

This is why all the passages about Judgment that I have ever found, where God says anything, involve works, not justification by faith alone. God doesn’t say, “did you BELIEVE in Me with faith alone?” He says, rather, “you are saved because you DID this and didn’t do that.”

I say the excruciating analysis of the word “faith” is much ado about nothing. We believe largely the same (whatever words are used), in the sense that I outlined above. Do you agree with at least that practical, concrete point of mine?

It reminds me of the time a Baptist pastor friend of mine, who had a bookstore that I frequented, once said that Catholics don’t believe in a personal relationship with Jesus.

I looked around on his shelves and noticed Thomas a Kempis’ The Imitation of Christ. So I asked him if he had ever read that? If one can read that marvelous book and conclude that Catholics know nothing of a relationship with Jesus Christ, then what else can we do? One might just as well conclude that birds don’t fly or that elephants don’t have trunks.

People will believe what they want to believe about Catholics, unfortunately. All we can do is try to educate and disabuse people of false notions. I think the common ground is far more profound than what divides us.

As for the similarity uniting the Reformed, Lutheran, and Roman Catholic soteriologies, they’re all Augustinian and all affirm sola gratia, so there’s something to what you say. You are underestimating the importance of sola fide, however.

Glad to see the extensive agreement, and thanks to you and CPA and Tom R for the great discussion. Let me disagree with one point, though, if I may. The last sentence above makes no sense in the context of an acknowledgement of similarities, because it isn’t a similarity in the first place.

That would be like saying, “turquoise, aquamarine, and teal all have in common the characteristic of “containing the color blue” and then someone comes along and says “ah, but you’re underestimating the importance of red.”

It doesn’t apply if the topic is common ground. It wouldn’t even apply if purple (which contains red) were one of the three colors listed, because it would only be one of the three, which is the point. “Common ground” must refer to “that trait held by all in common.”

Moreover, in the practical, non-abstract sense in which my initial “common ground” scenario functioned, “faith alone” (or any other abstract theological concept) is ultimately irrelevant, precisely because the commonality was on practical, not ultra-theological, or broadly intellectual grounds. It works with and applies to the practical fruit and lived-out-experience of all truly Christian (non-Pelagian, trinitarian) systems.

But if your last sentence was simply a sort of stand-alone editorial comment, you could say that in the sense that I ultimately reject sola fide as a biblical doctrine, and as applied as one of the pillars of Protestantism. That said, I still see a lot of common ground even with regard to sola fide considered separately (more than is usually supposed by Protestants and seemingly still not grasped by CPA). 


Dr. Howell (former Presbyterian) makes the point that the Catholic beef is not with any imputation whatsoever, but rather, with the radical concept of “faith alone” to the exclusion of works.

But as I have shown, practically-speaking, it comes out the same, anyway (which is why I consider so many discussions on faith and works as tedious and missing the point. When Lutherans and Calvinists go on to say that works better follow justification or else one can question whether it even occurred, the practical result is the same: faith and works are joined. The only difference is in the fine -tuned abstractions and the way concepts and doctrines are categorized and related to each other.

I prefer the common sense, non-philosophical, non-theological approach of someone like C. S. Lewis, who said that the false dichotomy of “faith vs. works” was as foolish as saying that one blade of a pair of scissors was more important than the other.

That last sentence was not intended to express a similarity, but rather to point out that sola gratia is only half the question.

Perhaps I’ll have time to read one or more of those papers later. For now, I’ll just say this: to me, it seems there is a big difference between viewing salvation as something already accomplished, in which I must simply maintain faith so as not to fall away, and viewing it as a goal that I can reach if I avail myself sufficiently of God’s help.

But again, there is a practical similarity, if not equation (in that specifically concrete sense). You say that you view salvation as something already accomplished, yet you can fall away. So it really isn’t “accomplished” after all, is it? It’s not because you haven’t gotten there yet. The eschatological (“being in the elect”) sense of salvation is the only one that really matters in the end: whether we get to heaven or not. And no one can say for sure that they will persevere to the end. We don’t know the future. Hence, St. Paul’s talk about “pressing on,” etc.

So the Catholic view is not really that different from yours: it’s simply looked at from a different vantage point, like a spider on the ceiling viewing the whole room differently because he is upside down, but it is the same room (and also because he is a lot smaller). It’s two ways of looking at the same thing, with different abstract theologies tacked onto them.

So the Catholic “presses on” with St. Paul, just as the Protestant does. The latter can talk as if it’s really accomplished already, but that is practically meaningless as long as one can theoretically fall away. One can only have, therefore, a “moral” assurance (precisely as we teach).

If I examine myself and am sure that no mortal sin is abiding in me, and I am doing my best to follow God, I can be morally sure now that I will be saved if I die in the next hour. I would argue (having been in both camps) that the observant, faithful Catholic is, thus, every bit as “sure” of his salvation as the Protestant is or is actually able to be; once one looks closely at both visions of the Christian life.

Now, someone might think that the Calvinist approach (with its doctrine of perseverance) solves the “problem of assurance”, but it really doesn’t. Even John Calvin stated that no one can be absolutely certain themselves, or know about others, that they are of the elect.

The problem of lack of knowledge of the future, in the end, makes the Calvinist just as uncertain of his final state as Catholics or Lutherans or Orthodox or anyone else. They simply don’t know for sure. The individual Calvinist usually assumes he is in the elect, but it’s just that: only an assumption.

He looks at others and makes a judgment: “that guy is an adulterer; he’s not in the elect.” That guy denies the Trinity; he can’t be in the elect.” Etc. Then if someone comes right out and rejects Jesus or the Trinity, or is caught with a prostitute (or worse, a little boy or girl), and was previously thought to be one of the elect, then it is simply stated that he never was regenerate or of the elect (and Baptists say he was never “saved”).

But (quite obviously) no one “knew” all that till the event happened. Likewise, no one knows for sure that they won’t later fall away. Say they endure a great tragedy that causes them to lose faith entirely (and the “bad people” we observe may always repent in the future and start following God). Well, no one “knew” what was going to happen in the future.

So we’re all in the same boat: we press on and make our election (that we can only make an educated guess that we have) more sure. It works out exactly the same in all Christian systems of soteriology. There is no “big difference” as you claim. The difference lies in someone’s level of devotion to Jesus and love towards his fellow man, or lack thereof. In other words, the only real (concrete, practical) difference comes down to who is living out the Christian life with more fervor and zeal and consistency and love, and who isn’t.

Maybe that is why God Himself talks so much about works in the scenes of judgment recorded in Holy Scripture, rather than “faith alone”?

These are a few of the areas where Catholics understand fully that it is no contradiction to say “You are X forever” but also “You are commanded not to act in a way contrary to X”.

Yes; decent analogies (in and of themselves) and a good point; however, it’s a disanalogy when you are talking about salvation, because, as I wrote above, the only sense of salvation that has any ultimate meaning is eschatological salvation: does one actually end up in heaven, thus proving he really was saved and of the elect?

So, to further expand upon your analogy, one can get married and even intend to stay together forever, but one can’t know with infallible certainty that they will do so and will never divorce. Presumably, everyone who gets divorced thought on their wedding day that they would not. But in any event, it only refers to this life, not one’s status with regard to the next.

Likewise with the priest. Indeed, he has an indelible mark as a priest. But that refers to the here and now: this life. He can act inconsistently with that, just as in 1 John it says that the essence of being a Christian is to not sin (the ideal), but also says, “if we sin, we have an advocate” (realistic appraisal of human frailty).

But the claim to some sort of assurance of salvation is with reference to one ending up in heaven. That is what being saved ultimately comes down to. And we can’t know that, short of a revelation from God: itself difficult to know with absolute certainty.

To a Lutheran, the Augustinian Evangelical view of faith/ works is like “I love my wife. Therefore (a) I will stay married to her for life, and (b) I will give her a wonderful birthday present”,

But I just showed how no one knows that for sure. You only know it now. You can’t know for sure what will happen tomorrow. You love your wife now. But say ten years from now she has an affair and also kills one of your children (perhaps by abortion). Will you feel the same? No, of course not. Simply saying, “I love Jesus and am committed to him, so I am saved [or, must be saved] only refers to current desire and willingness, not to all future sates of mind and will.

The Catholic can say exactly the same thing, with a little different lingo (taking out the past tense of salvation): “I love Jesus and have entirely committed my life to Him, and intend on serving Him the rest of my life, and to grow in sanctity and virtue, and if I continue to do so by His grace I am assured that I will eventually go to heaven.”

whereas the Catholic (or Arminian Evangelical) view looks rather too much like “I’d better get my wife a wonderful birthday present, or else I might find myself no longer married to her.”

But this isn’t true. We don’t think in such simplistic, superficial terms. We would say, rather, “those who love God (as with a wife) will naturally want to do loving acts towards Him and to get to know Him better.” It’s no different. And a rejection of God or salvation works out practically the same. The Catholic would say:

A1) “If I reject my wife utterly I might find myself no longer married to her.”

A2) “If I reject God utterly I might find myself separated from God in hell.”

Whereas the Protestant says:

B1) “If I reject my wife utterly I might find myself no longer married to her.”

B2) “If I reject God utterly I (probably or certainly) was never saved or regenerate in the first place and will find myself separated from God in hell.”

The only difference is adding in the relative abstraction of being “saved” in this life, while not knowing with certainty one’s final destination. Practically speaking, the two are identical.

Works to us are a result, not a cause, of salvation.

This is your basic fallacy. Works are no cause of salvation for the Catholic, either. We are not semi-Pelagian, as your Confessions erroneously state. We believe that all good works whatever, as well as salvation itself, must wholly originate from God’s grace.

Man merely cooperates with this grace. It is man’s works enabled by God, and simultaneously God’s works through him, as we see in Ephesians 2:9-10 and Paul’s many statements about being God’s co-workers, etc. Lutheranism makes a false, unnecessary dichotomy between God’s grace in our works and our doing the works. It falsely collapses all such cooperation with grace into semi-Pelagianism, but it is not at all.

If one is failing at works, the remedy is to return to the Gospel – “remember that you have been saved” – rather than to add on more Law.

It has nothing to do with “law” because in the first place the claim is not that we are saved by works. Even the astute OT Jew knew that the Law did not save Him; that was by faith in God. It’s all grace; all we’re doing is cooperating with that grace.

If we are failing we don’t simply reiterate an abstraction in our mind: “hey, I forgot I was saved for a moment there; now that I know I am once again, I can do better!” That accomplishes little, and is self-generated.

Right. The thing we reiterate is very concrete. “Christ Jesus died for me, and in Him I am forgiven all my sins.”

Absolutely; conditional upon our repentance. If we fall into mortal sin (1 Jn 5:16-17) we can confess to a priest (Mt 16:19, 18:18, Jn 20:23) and receive forgiveness and grace from God to become restored spiritually. It’s an ongoing process. God will forgive anyone who repents. Regeneration is a past event, but justification/sanctification is ongoing.

* * *


The Catholic says that if we are failing, we go to God and ask Him for more grace, and receive such grace through confession or the Eucharist or prayers. This in turn helps us to be better people. It doesn’t come through “faith in faith” which is a purely subjective thing, but through objective grace from God, mediated through the sacraments or sacramentals but also through other means: always from God, not our own subjective feelings and thoughts.

For both of us there is the chance of falling away, and yes, there is that for the Presbyterians and Baptists also, though they may define it away. That’s not what I was talking about, though. I’m talking about how we are saved, not whether.

We’re saved by God’s grace. We all believe in sola gratia. Any good works in any non-Pelagian soteriology are themselves initially generated by grace. Where’s the beef? Why even have any controversies about these things?

The real difference is between non-Pelagian (Protestant, Catholic, Orthodox) systems and Pelagian ones (Jehovah’s Witnesses, Unitarians, etc.). It’s a category mistake made by the Lutheran confessions, that Catholics are semi-Pelagian.

I’ve argued that the Book / Formula of Concord in its final formulation in 1580 should have understood the clarifications of Trent vis-a-vis soteriology and modified the charges of semi-Pelagianism. As it is, it stands as an institutionalized, dogmatized misrepresentation of another Christian system, which is unfortunate and doesn’t help matters any.

‘It has nothing to do with “law” because in the first place the claim is not that we are saved by works.’

Do you then reject the argument put by many Catholics that St Paul in Galatians is only condemning the idea that we are saved by obeying the Jewish Law, of Moses, and not the Moral Law?

I follow the interpretation of N. T. Wright. This general view was expressed by my friend Al Kresta in a lengthy citation in my book, A Biblical Defense of Catholicism:

Paul’s arguments against works of the law are not fundamentally arguments against human participation in or human cooperation with the saving purposes of God but arguments against Judaistic pride that sought to define membership in the covenant community by reference to Jewish marks of identity, such as circumcision, Sabbath-keeping, etc. and not fundamentally faith in Jesus as Messiah . . .

Contrary to the pronouncements of popular preachers, first century Judaism did not believe in salvation by works. They believed that they were God’s elect people by grace; lawkeeping was their response to God’s grace. Salvation was understood to be granted by God’s electing grace, not according to a righteousness based on merit-earning works. But most Protestant scholars since Luther have read Paul as saying that Judaism misunderstood the gracious nature of God’s covenant with Moses and perverted it into a system of attaining righteousness by works.

Wrong! Luther’s experience was not Paul’s. New Testament scholars, for the most part, now understand ‘works of law’ not as synonymous with human effort but as the activities by which the Jews maintained their distinct status from the Gentiles . . .

For Paul, these boundary-defining features distinguished Israel in the flesh (Romans 2:28 ) and encouraged Jews to boast in their national identity (Romans 3:27-29; Galatians 2:16; 6:13). They were obstructing the extension of God’s grace to the nations through Christ. In so doing, they were undermining their very purpose of existence: all the nations were supposed to be blessed by the offspring of Abraham (Genesis 12:3; Deuteronomy 4:6; Isaiah 66:20).

So when Paul says of the Jews that ‘they sought to establish their own righteousness’ (Romans 10:3) he doesn’t mean that they were trying to earn their salvation through human exertion but that they arrogated to themselves the authority to set the conditions by which believing Gentiles could be regarded as full members in the new covenant community. They rejected the authoritative apostolic teaching that the Gentiles and Jews constituted one body (Acts 15:1,24; Galatians 1:7; 2:12; 5:10; Ephesians 2-3:13) and they sought to thwart God’s inclusion of the Gentiles by insisting that Gentiles first become Jews through circumcision, etc., rather than through faith in Jesus, who is the ‘aim’ or ‘end’ of the law (Philippians 3:2; Galatians 5:6; 6:15; 1 Corinthians 7:19; Romans 10:4). They were retrogressive . . . (pp. 42-43)

Do you think Wright’s right in his attack on veneration of saints too?

Dunno. I haven’t seen that. Probably not, if he is attacking it. Better for Wright to be wrong, though, than for wrong to be right.

* * *
Is our cooperation grace too?

It’s enabled by grace. But we still have to be willing to do it, or can refuse, not being robots. God wants His creatures to actively participate in His purposes.

If you say that salvation is something we merit (in whatever relative, grace-modified sense) through cooperation, and that cooperation – no matter how grace-powered – depends on our own will and determination, then there’s more between us than sola fide. Your rejection of sola fide is causing a hiccup in your sola gratia as well.

On the other point, sin and repentance, and therefore the forgiveness of sins also, are indeed ongoing in the Christian life. This does not mean that justification is ongoing, however; the absolutions we receive are reiterations of the declaration God made when we were baptized: “You are forgiven in Christ.” They give us comfort and feed the faith by which we remain in Christ; they do not put us back in after some mortal sin has uprooted us. Nothing can uproot us except the loss of faith, and if faith is lost, we will not believe the absolution.

And even if we could agree on “ongoing justification” being in some sense a legitimate description of absolution, we certainly could not agree that it is an ongoing process. Being sanctified is a process. Being justified is a simple condition. There are degrees of Christ-likeness. There are not degrees of forgivenness.

And we come to the Catholic-Lutheran brick wall again. At a certain point the dialogue ceases and both parties simply state their positions to the other, who is oblivious.

My hope was to illustrate that the commonalities are a lot more than usually supposed. If I have convinced even one person of that, then it has been a net gain.

I ain’t gonna go down the muddle-headed road that equates mere biblical, explicitly Pauline cooperation with God’s grace as semi-Pelagian. If we are that, then so is the Apostle Paul, and we’re in good company.

If you reject any cooperation at all, then you reject Paul, and your problem is with the Bible and the Great Apostle, not with the Catholic Church, since we derived our doctrine on merit from him (and from St. Augustine, too).

***

I guess in the 16th century context of widespread Lutheran forcible suppression of the Mass, systematic misrepresentation of the Catholic version of sola gratia in the Lutheran Confessions is not in the least surprising.

By contrast, I (the big bad boogeyman apologist) have defended Luther on many occasions against false bogus charges, and also Melanchtonian Lutheranism against similar false accusations of semi-Pelagianism.

I don’t see how inaccuracy in describing other Christian systems does anyone any good.

Yes, there are commonalities. They cannot be understood properly, however, if the differences are excluded from the conversation. They shape each other.

I don’t know where you got the idea that I see “explicitly Pauline cooperation with God’s grace as semi-Pelagian.” What’s semi-Pelagian is 1) making this cooperation the engine of justification, and 2) making it dependent on human good will instead of divine predestination and the gift of perseverance.


It isn’t. It is simultaneously God-enabled behavior and man’s own behavior. It’s a biblical paradox: one of many. But if one disallows those and insists on dichotomizing at every turn, then it is seen as an “either/or” contrary. I maintain that Paul doesn’t see it that way, with his terminology of “fellow laborers” with God, etc.
That’s not a paradox at all. God gives the ability, man must choose to use it. It’s just simple straightforward synergism.
I understand that you cannot see it any other way from within your paradigm. We’ll have to agree to disagree. You believe that man does nothing at all, including even cooperating with a free gift. I don’t think the biblical data either suggests or requires that. There is a middle biblical ground that preserves free will and the proper dignity of regenerated, Spirit-indwelt man without descending into semi-Pelagianism. You’ve ruled it out by your categories.
No, I don’t. What I believe is 1) that man’s cooperation is not salvific, and 2) that faith, which is salvific, is not cooperation, but purely the gift of God.
It’s just playing word games, Eric. There is no difference. Either way, man’s gotta do something. You call the cooperation (exercising faith or what not) a gift. It clearly isn’t insofar as it has to be accepted and acted upon by man, and that is doing something. There is no way out of it. If you give a horse season tickets to the local NBA team, he doesn’t know what to do with it; he can’t grasp the significance of it; to the horse it is just a meaningless piece of paper.

Every gift has to be accepted by the recipient. This is how faith and grace are. They are pure gifts of God, but if we don’t appropriate them to ourselves and act upon them, they are meaningless. The acceptance is also grace. But it is acceptance and is an act, and it is not”nothing”.

If we aren’t mere automatons, we accept the gift of grace and faith, just as a prisoner must accept the gift of a pardon from the governor. He could reject it; he could hang himself the day before it came or refuse to leave the prison. Or he can accept it and choose to walk out a free man. Giving assent to God’s gift and repenting and making a change in one’s life is all doing something.

We Catholics also believe that “man’s cooperation is not salvific.” Salvation comes from God’s grace alone (sola gratia). The real problem underlying all these word games is Lutheranism’s false doctrine of man: as if man is utterly, absolutely evil (I dealt with this above, with my citations of former Lutheran Louis Bouyer).

Now, we agree, that man can do no self-generated good works, apart from God’s grace. Trent clearly teaches this. It is our doctrine and dogma too. But once grace enters in, man can cooperate with it and do good works in Christ. These, in turn, prove that justification is real, in both systems. The Apostle Paul is very explicit about this notion.

I think Dave is correct in his disagreement with Eric about the whole question of faith is or is not a work – it’s a mere logomachy – except on one thing (and that’s the thing that makes all the difference):

If we ask, why are some saved and not others, we can either answer because some cooperated and some didn’t (and we can do that immediately or else mediately by saying God foresaw their faith, etc.).

Or else we can refer the whole question to God, or in any case refuse to use human free will as an answer to the question.

That’s where the difference is.

 
Or we can take the Molinist view, as I do: God knows who will respond or not respond to His grace, by virtue of his middle knowledge (scientia media) — a function of His omniscience, and so gives more grace to those whom He knows will indeed respond to and act upon His grace.

More paradox, but not contradiction! Middle knowledge is indicated in Scripture; e.g., where Jesus said that if Tyre and Sidon had heard the gospel, they would have repented (Matthew 11:20-24). 

The Molinist “God foresaw who would repent and believe” view is popular among Catholics and Arminian Protestants (eg Seventh-Day Adventists). The problem with it is, it means St Paul (sorry, The Paulist Author[s]) wasted his papyrus writing Romans 9. Rather than explaining that the clay pot doesn’t talk back to its Maker, he should have been rushing to explain that the Maker would never do so harsh and cruel a thing as making some vessels prepared for destruction. Rather, he should have been explaining that the Maker only foresaw that some of his clay pots would crack (yet still refused to make them more soundly…)
The Molinist position is exactly what I called a mediate theodicy of free will. Right or wrong, then suddenly questions of whether faith and/or cooperation with grace are meritorious, a work, etc., are no longer logomachies, because suddenly they are being asked to carry the immense weight of deciding why some are saved and some not.

This is why I have insisted that in Bondage of the Will Luther’s principle question is not free will in the abstract, but theodicy, and why the Augsburg Confession insists that the only part of “free will” that matters theologically is the free will to turn or not to turn to God.

I for one am eagerly looking forward if and when I get to heaven, to finding out who was right on this blasted free will / predestination dispute and some others. I suspect there will be a lot of “heavenly humor” about folks being wrong and spending so much energy and time in their life fighting for things that were simply untrue. Then we’ll all forgive each other our follies and human pride and get on with the business of worshiping God together for eternity.
* * *
I mentioned N. T. Wright only in passing, and almost exclusively with regard to the interpretation of “works of the law” and the “law / grace” relationship, not all of soteriology. But Rich Lusk, in his “A Short Note on N.T. Wright and His Reformed Critics” [link now defunct] writes:

Wright stresses the “already” as well as the “not yet” of justification. Here both Rome and the Reformers must be found wanting. For the Reformers, justification was conceived almost entirely in terms of the “already”. What wounded consciences needed to hear was that God had already accepted them in Christ. Rome, of course, held the verdict of justification in suspense until the last day, making assurance impossible. For Wright (and not a few top notch Reformed theologians) justification is present and future. Initial justification is received by faith alone. But “future justification, acquittal at the last great Assize, always takes place on the basis of the totality of the life lived” [8]. Indeed, this point seems obvious, even if it has been largely missed because of our polemic against Rome. Scripture repeatedly points ahead to a final judgment in which works will play a vital role in our acquittal (though not in abstraction from faith, of course) ” [9].

8. P. 144 in Paul and the Mosaic Law, edited by J. D. G. Dunn.

9. Cf. Mt. 25:31ff, Rom. 2, etc. The Westminster divines implicitly acknowledge a future dimension to justification in WSC 38, since they spoke of “acquittal” occurring at the final judgment. Among more contemporary Reformed theologians, Gaffin and Norm Shepherd have spoken freely of the future aspect of justification.

There’s your “common ground” again: what I have been stressing in many statements above. But some folks want to keep stressing that we disagree so wildly on the whole vexed faith and works issue. We do indeed, abstractly, but not so much in terms of the practiced Christian life. 

***

(originally 2-1-07)

Photo credit: Philip Melanchthon (1540): engraving by Heinrich Aldegrever (1502-1555/1561) [public domain / Wikimedia Commons]

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2018-09-07T19:44:08-04:00

Heresy can only be defined as the apostles and Church Fathers defined it, according to the ancient principle of apostolic succession. In a nutshell, heresy is that which has not been passed down from the beginning, from the apostles and our Lord Jesus. If something is novel and cannot be traced back, it is heresy, and to be utterly rejected, according to St. Paul in particular. All other definitions are ultimately circular:

X What is heresy?
Y That which is false and wrong according to the Bible (i.e., as interpreted by Calvin/Luther/whomever)
X And where do they get their authority to state that?
Y From God, but they would trace their beliefs to the early Fathers, particularly St. Augustine.
X But Catholics also trace their beliefs from St. Augustine. Who is correct?
Y If you look at Augustine’s teachings, you will find that the Reformed are his true legatees.

Applying this oft-stated Protestant principle, I then appeal to Protestant scholars Alister McGrath and Norman Geisler, with regard to the historical basis of sola fide (faith alone and extrinsic, imputed justification), one of the pillars of the Protestant Reformation:

Whereas Augustine taught that the sinner is made righteous in justification, Melanchthon taught that he is counted as righteous or pronounced to be righteous. For Augustine, ‘justifying righteousness’ is imparted; for Melanchthon, it is imputed in the sense of being declared or pronounced to be righteous. Melanchthon drew a sharp distinction between the event of being declared righteous and the process of being made righteous, designating the former ‘justification’ and the latter ‘sanctification’ or ‘regeneration.’ For Augustine, these were simply different aspects of the same thing . . .

The importance of this development lies in the fact that it marks a complete break with the teaching of the church up to that point. From the time of Augustine onwards, justification had always been understood to refer to both the event of being declared righteous and the process of being made righteous. . . .

The Council of Trent . . . reaffirmed the views of Augustine on the nature of justification . . . the concept of forensic justification actually represents a development in Luther’s thought . . . .

Trent maintained the medieval tradition, stretching back to Augustine, which saw justification as comprising both an event and a process . . . (Reformation Thought: An Introduction, 2nd edition, Grand Rapids, Michigan: Baker Book House, 1993, 108-109, 115; emphasis in original)

This spectacularly confirms that sola fide was a novelty and corruption, and that infused, intrinsic justification was the ongoing tradition, and that of St. Augustine, supposedly the great forerunner of Luther’s “faith alone.” Norman Geisler makes the exact same point:

For Augustine, justification included both the beginnings of one’s righteousness before God and its subsequent perfection — the event and the process. What later became the Reformation concept of ‘sanctification’ then is effectively subsumed under the aegis of justification. Although he believed that God initiated the salvation process, it is incorrect to say that Augustine held to the concept of ‘forensic’ justification. This understanding of justification is a later development of the Reformation . . .

Before Luther, the standard Augustinian position on justification stressed intrinsic justification. Intrinsic justification argues that the believer is made righteous by God’s grace, as compared to extrinsic justification, by which a sinner is forensically declared righteous (at best, a subterranean strain in pre-Reformation Christendom). With Luther the situation changed dramatically . . .

. . . one can be saved without believing that imputed righteousness (or forensic justification) is an essential part of the true gospel. Otherwise, few people were saved between the time of the apostle Paul and the Reformation, since scarcely anyone taught imputed righteousness (or forensic justification) during that period! . . . . . (Roman Catholics and Evangelicals: Agreements and Differences, with Ralph E. MacKenzie, Grand Rapids, Michigan: Baker Book House, 1995, 502, 85, 222; emphasis in original)

Much the same demonstration can be made with regard to sola Scriptura and other Protestant distinctives. To summarize, then: the only (biblical, logical) way to determine heresy and orthodoxy is the historical criterion of apostolic succession. Any other method is circular, with no way to resolve competing claims.

Sola fide cannot be a legitimate development, because it is different in essence from infused justification. If some Reformed Protestants claim that our view is Pelagianism or a false gospel of works, etc. because of its difference from the Reformed extrinsic, forensic, external, imputed righteousness, then how can their view be said to be merely a “development” of ours, via Augustine and others?

A development cannot proceed from an entirely false view to a true one, or change in its essence. This violates the very definition of development, on any coherent theological view of what the word means. It is not simply random evolution or change, but consistent change: consistent with what has come before it, not radically divergent.

That would be like saying that orthodox Chalcedon trinitarianism could have “developed” from Arianism, Sabellianism, or Monophysitism. Therefore, sola fide must be considered as a corruption of Augustinian (and patristic) soteriology, because it is entirely novel in essential aspects, as my two Protestant citations showed.

St. Augustine rejected double predestination, perseverance, imputed justification, and accepted free will, sacramentalism, baptismal regeneration, the Real Presence of the Eucharist, the sacrifice of the Mass, the central authoritative roles of the Church and Tradition, as well as Scripture, the papacy, purgatory, penance, intercession of the saints, an exalted role of Mary, and human merit. In other words, he was a good Catholic. As if this were some amazing revelation . . . .

How, then, can a Reformed Protestant claim on the one hand that his views are descended from St. Augustine, yet on the other hand assert that Catholics are heretics, Pelagians, and adherents of a false, idolatrous gospel, for believing the same sort of things that St. Augustine also held? If I am a heretic and not a Christian, then neither was Augustine. If he was one, then so am I.

Without too much trouble, one can find Catholic distinctives in St. Augustine’s classic, The City of God. For example, the great Doctor appears to be talking about purgatory in XX, 25-26 (“. . . at the judgment those who are worthy of such purification are to be purified even by fire; and after that there will be found in all the saints no sin at all . . . “). Cf. XXI, 13.

He clearly rejects the Lutheran/Calvinist “bondage of the will” (V, 10 and XII, 7). He teaches the sacrifice of the Mass and the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist (X, 5, 20; XXI, 25), baptismal regeneration (XIII, 7; XX, 6), development of doctrine (XVI, 2), authoritative Tradition (XVIII, 38), and prayers for the dead (XX, 9; XXI, 24).

How is it “outside” of God’s working to simply reject His working? This is absolutely illogical and nonsensical. How does a prisoner’s refusal to accept a governor’s pardon somehow make the pardon null and void, or change the essence of the fact that the governor does all: all pardon comes from him, but a free agent can reject it if he so chooses? This is what Augustine states in City of God, V, 10:

It does not follow, because God foreknew what would in the future be in our will, that there is nothing in the power of our will.

He doesn’t create a false dichotomy, which is so characteristic of Protestant thought. He accepts the paradox and mystery (not contradiction) of divine sovereignty and human will, as Scripture also does.

Let me put it in capital letters: (in Catholic, Tridentine teaching) GOD DOES THE ENTIRE WORK OF GRACE AND JUSTIFICATION. MAN MERELY GOES ALONG WITH IT, OR REJECTS IT. Even merit is God rewarding His own gifts, as Augustine accurately puts it. God’s grace is always primary and initiatory. Once one is walking in that grace, there is merit, yes, but it must also be understood as ultimately initiated and entirely caused by God.

***

(originally 11-24-00)

Photo credit: St Augustine Teaching in Rome (1465), by Benozzo Gozzoli (c. 1421-1497) [public domain / Wikimedia Commons]

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2018-09-05T07:03:12-04:00

[This material is from a short-lived e-mail exchange with a Baptist friend, in January 1997 (originally intended to be a comprehensive Bible study of Romans and later edited: on 11 August 2000). Her (selective) words will be in blue, but this is primarily my own contribution to the dialogue. Verses are from the NRSV Bible unless otherwise noted.]
*****

Romans 1b-2 . . . the gospel of God which he promised beforehand through his prophets in the Holy Scriptures.

I think often in this respect of the famous OT passage concerning the New Covenant (Jer 31:31-34), which was stressed at the Lutheran Church where I first started seriously following Christ in the late 70s. I particularly love the phrase, “I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts……” (31:33). Perhaps this is the single clearest “promise beforehand” of the coming of Christ and His gospel — at any rate, in the sense of spiritual “result.” This (i.e., Jer 31:33) is a marvelous expression of the unspeakably precious closeness of God to us, in the Person of the Holy Spirit, as I think we can reasonably conclude is the meaning intended.

In my long paper on 700+ biblical proofs of the divinity of Christ, I listed 50 OT messianic prophecies fulfilled by Jesus Christ, inc., notably: Is 7:14, 9:1, 11:2, 32:3-4, 40:3, 49:7, Mic 5:1-2, Ps 2:6-7, 16:10, 22:1-18, 68:18, 69:21, 78:2, 110:1, 118:22, Zech 9:9, 12:10, 13:6-7, Dan 9:26, Mal 3:1, and of course, the remarkable Isaiah 53 (see also my paper Old Testament and Jewish Conceptions of the Messiah). One of my commentaries says there are about 140 altogether. I’ve heard the figure 300 mentioned before, too, although it seems a bit excessive to me.

I’ve always been intrigued wondering about what Jesus would have told the disciples on the road to Emmaus (Lk 24:13-35, esp. v.27). What a study that would be if we only had the transcript!!!! Why wouldn’t God have allowed such a definitive commentary by Himself to be in Scripture, I wonder {scratching head}? Talk about infallible interpretation!!! :-) One of the many fascinating “biblical silences” . . .

Incidentally, we Catholics (following St. Augustine and many other Church Fathers), observe a Eucharistic significance in the fact that Jesus – in the Emmaus passage — right after He “broke” bread (cf. Acts 2:42, 20:7, 1 Cor 10:16), “and gave it to them,” “vanished,” immediately as they “recognized him” (Lk 24:30-31). They could have noticed the nail marks in His hands as He broke bread, too.

Luther wrote that:


The most convincing and persuasive proof of the Gospel is the fact that it was witnessed by the Law and the Prophets……. He did all this, in order that when the promise would be fulfilled, men would realize that He was dealing with them in accordance with His predetermined counsel of salvation.


In this vein, he cites Prov 8:23, Amos 3:7, Is 48:5, and Titus 1:2. St. John Chrysostom (d.417) wrote:


Since the charge of bringing in novelties was brought against the Gospel, he shows that it was older than the Greeks, and long ago shadowed out in the prophets.


F. F. Bruce informs us that:


The OT background of the NT use of euangelion is found in the LXX of Isaiah 40-66 (esp. Is 40:9, 52:7, 60:6, 61:1), where this noun……is used of the proclamation of Zion’s impending release from exile. The NT writers treat this proclamation as foreshadowing the proclamation of the release from spiritual estrangement and bondage procured by the death and resurrection of Christ.


As for OT indications of the Gospel in general, Bruce cites cross-references in Romans 1:17, 3:21, 4:3,6 ff.


Romans 1:3 the gospel concerning his son, who was descended from David according to the flesh.


The biological lineage from David is clear in many OT passages (e.g., Ps 132:11, Is 9:6-7, 11:10, Jer 23:5-6, 33:15) and need not detain us here. What most interests me personally about this is the typological use of David-as-Messiah (Jesus) in many passages where the “kingly” function of the Messiah Jesus is referred to (see section XVI of my Trinity paper), such as Jer 30:9, Ezek 34:23-24, 37:24-25, and Hosea 3:5 (cf. Dan 7:13-14, Is 11:4-10, 24:23, Mic 4:3,7, 5:2-5, Zech 9:9-10, 14:9,16).

These sorts of verses used to constitute proof for me of premillennialism, but now I’m not so sure, as I have provisionally adopted an agnostic position on most eschatological questions (Catholics are amillennial, as far as I know, although I don’t know if this is required dogmatically or if latitude of belief is allowed).

I changed my views on this before I converted to Catholicism, having read some Reformed stuff by Oswald Allis and others. But the possibility of parabolic, allegorical, typological or symbolic language is not in the least unlikely, since Hebraic poetic motifs clearly dominate the “Prophets” and the “Writings.” One adopts a wooden literalism in OT hermeneutics only at their own peril!

Finally, we arrive at the crucial question of what exactly constitutes the “gospel.” In my written responses to anti-Catholic crusaders like John Ankerberg and John Weldon, James White, R. C. Sproul, and others, and in my notorious Open Letter to Anti-Catholics, I have taken up this question, drawing (as with this paper) almost exclusively from research and beliefs from my Protestant days, completed long before I ever considered Catholicism. It’s quite curious (as well as offensive) to me that so many Protestants want to define the “gospel” in the strict sense of “justification by faith alone,” when the Bible itself is very explicit and clear that this is not the case at all.

For example, we know what the gospel is because we have a record of the Apostles preaching it immediately after Pentecost. St. Peter’s first sermon in the Upper Room (Acts 2:22-40) is certainly the gospel, especially since 3000 people became Christians upon hearing it (2:41)! In it he utters not a word about “faith alone.” He instructs the hearers, rather, to “repent, and be baptized . . . so that your sins may be forgiven” (2:38).

So, immediately after the Resurrection, at the very outset of the “Church Age,” an Apostle teaches sacramentalism and baptismal regeneration – anathema to most evangelicals. St. Paul defines the gospel in Acts 13:16-41 as the Resurrection of Jesus (vss. 32-33), and in 1 Cor 15:1-8 as His death, burial, and Resurrection. When Paul converted, straightaway he also got baptized, in order to have his “sins washed away” (baptismal regeneration again).

Biblical factors such as these caused people like Luther and Wesley and their denominations, and other communions like the Anglicans and Church of Christ to retain this doctrine. Furthermore, when the rich young ruler asked Jesus right out how he could be saved (Lk 18:18-25), our Lord, accordingly, didn’t say “just believe in Me with faith alone.” No, He commanded him to perform a “work,” to sell all that he had. Jesus also rewards and grants salvation at least partially according to works and acts of charity, rather than on the basis of sola fide (Mt 16:27, 25:30-46 – note conjunction “for” in v.35).

So then, the explicit scriptural proclamations and definitions of the gospel strikingly exclude “faith alone,” while other actions by Jesus and the Apostles contradict it by force of example. Conclusion?: The gospel is — as Paul teaches — the death, burial and Resurrection of Jesus. This is the “good news,” not some technical soteriological theory, which is why Jimmy Akin pointed out that billboards say “Jesus Saves,” not “Jesus Justifies.”

Even common sense would dictate that this “good news” is comprised of Jesus’ redemptive work for us – the great historical drama of His Incarnation and Atonement, not forensic, “legal,” imputed justification! And the Prophets foretold these events, not a fine-tuned theory of application of those events to the believer — irregardless of whoever has the correct theory. How could a mere theological abstract reasonably be called “good news”?

It seems clear enough to me, yet otherwise brilliant, scholarly. learned people like Dr. Sproul (whom I enjoy very much on the radio) are blind to this and wickedly accuse ecumenical Protestants like Chuck Colson, Bill Bright, and J. I. Packer of “betraying the gospel” by their attempts to cooperate and have fellowship with Catholics as much as possible, and to find common theological ground (which is, of course, very considerable).

For these reasons and many others, it is wicked and unconscionable for Protestants such as the aforementioned to read Catholicism out of the Christian faith, since both sides fully accept all the supernatural facts of Christ’s divinity and man’s fallenness and believe that salvation comes solely as a result of His atoning work on our behalf — always ultimately His work of grace, whether or not works enter into the equation. The contrary is Pelagianism, which was condemned by the Catholic Church in the 6th century. Also, both sides agree that good works ought to be present in every Christian’s life, whether they are required for salvation, or done in gratitude for salvation already accomplished.

Jesus said that He could summarize the law and the prophets of the Old Testament in this statement:


Mark 12:30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment. 31: And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.


Very good! I really overlooked this one.

It is significant that Jesus concurs with the scribe’s retort in the passage following, and even assures him that he is “not far from the Kingdom of Heaven”. The scribe has recognized that the two great commandments are motivated by a love relationship between God and man, and not a legalistic attempt to fulfill a prescribed act.

Yes. As I’ve said, “works” in Catholic theology (i.e., soteriology) are never intended in the sense of mere “legalism” or in isolation from God’s prevenient and enabling grace (which view is the heresy Pelagianism). Being opposed to “faith alone” is not equivalent to the denial of “grace alone.” The latter we vigorously affirm, with you, as the cause, origin, and ground of every man’s salvation. The issue between Catholics and Protestants is thus not the all-encompassing and absolute necessity of God’s grace, but rather, the relationship of justification to sanctification, and the latter to eschatological salvation itself.


Matthew 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.


In the Old Testament, salvation was not a reward for keeping the Law, it was a gift to those who, with a heart of humility and awareness of their sin, sought repentance from their sinful state, and by faith in God alone found redemption from that very sin that held them captive. Old Testament salvation involved turning from sin to God, a choice to attempt to keep God’s law out of love of Him, not a choice to keep His law out of a manipulative positioning toward His possible good favor.

Excellent. Very well said, and of course I agree.

The schoolmaster of the Law (Gal 3:24: Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster…) was given to illustrate our inability to fulfill the Law perfectly, as only Christ, The Son of God, the Word Incarnate, could, would, and did by His finished work on the Cross.

In other words, salvation by grace alone through Christ alone……..

My stomach curdles with indignation at the “accepting Jesus” baloney that is so thick everywhere nowadays.

Good for you. A. W. Tozer wrote a lot about that, and so did Bonhoeffer, with his famous phrase of “cheap grace.”

When an individual repents of sin and turns to Jesus Christ, the Son of God for salvation, depending totally upon Him and Him alone, immediately the individual is declared righteous in God’s eyes.

We differ in that we call this initial justification, the beginning of a lifelong process. We believe many of these “forensic” benefits are received at baptism, as that is where we place regeneration (e.g., Jn 3:5 and at least 6 other passages which we would produce).

As I said previously, “You nailed it on the head when you said ‘what God declares, He produces’ “.

This is the commonality. God will produce it apart from our definitional and theological endeavors to explain how He does it. And this is the ecumenical point I’ve sought to make with many of my Protestant brothers and sisters in Christ online. We think good works are technically part and parcel of justification; you guys classify them under non-salvific “sanctification.” But by far the most important thing is that we both regard them as absolutely necessary in every Christian’s life (i.e., their existence, as opposed to their effect and meaning).

So the practical effect is the same, and I think that will be (at least partially) what Jesus looks for when He judges us on the last day, as indeed seems to be indicated by the “sheep and the goats” passage in Matthew 25. And that because the truly, eschatologically saved individuals will perform good works, according to either perspective. Theological precision will be secondary at that point, I believe strongly (not to say that it is ever unimportant!).

Does God draw us to Himself irresistibly?

Not without our consent, even tho He causes that, too (Phil 2:13). A paradox, one of many in this area…….

Is mankind totally unable to perform any act that would generate favor or mercy in God’s eyes? Yes, that is clearly taught in Scripture.

Agreed, if meant in the Pelagian sense of an exclusion of God’s prevenient grace. Disagree to the extent that you intend this to exclude meritorious action. Merit is simply “God crowning His own gifts,” as Augustine put it.

Are these facts exclusive and contradictory? Only in the fallible, limited eyes of man. God says both are true in His Word, so they both are true. To insist on pushing one facet of the doctrine to the exclusion of the other is folly.

Excellent. This is a refreshing acknowledgement of paradox and mystery, which is often present in true Christianity, but lacking in many individual Christians. Catholics routinely look at things in that fashion. This is the “both/and” philosophy I talk about, as opposed to a dichotomous “either/or.” C. S. Lewis said faith without works is like talking about which blade in a pair of scissors is more necessary. I would say the same about grace and free will / human cooperation, Tradition and Bible, and many other things which are thought to be intrinsically opposed to each other.

Extreme Arminianism produces a helpless god at the mercy of sovereign man,

As in JW’s and other cults, Copeland and Hagin, and Unitarianism, among many others…….

and the Calvinistic extreme produces a despotic god . . .

Of course they deny that, . . .

***

(originally January 1997; revised 8-11-00)

Photo credit: Saint Paul (c. 1619), by Diego Velázquez (1599-1660) [public domain / Wikimedia Commons]

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2018-09-04T18:09:07-04:00

Phil Johnson is the Executive Director of popular Protestant expositor John MacArthur’s Grace to You  ministry, and ordained elder and pastor at Grace Community Church. The following dialogue took place on the public Theology List. Phillip’s words will be in blue.

*****

I’d like you to show me where the Catechism of the Catholic Church says anything about God securing our cooperation by grace.

Gladly: #1989, 1992-1993, 1996, 1998-2003, 2007-2010, 2018, 2022-2023, 2025-2027, pp. 482-487, 489-490.

#1996 reads:

Our justification comes from the grace of God. Grace is favor, the free and undeserved help that God gives us to respond to his call to become children of God, adoptive sons, partakers of the divine nature and of eternal life.

#2027:

No one can merit the initial grace which is at the origin of conversion . . .

But, Dave, not one of those passages teaches that God secures the sinner’s cooperation.

I disagree (what else is new?). I think #1996, 1998, and 2001 in particular do precisely that, and more, since they speak of eternal life as a gift of God, entirely unearned by man apart from God. The immediate question above had to do with God securing our cooperation, not salvation, and I answered it, 25 times. If you meant “secure our salvation” (a different proposition), then — in my humble opinion — you should have made that more clear.

Read my post again. I did not merely ask you to cite where the Catechism refers to divine grace. I asked you to show me where it describes grace as something that actually secures either 1) a positive response from the sinner, or 2) ultimate salvation for anyone.

In the immediate context above, you referred to the sinner’s cooperation, not “ultimate salvation.” In fact, we Catholics do hold that God elects persons to eternal salvation. Right now in my debate with [a Calvinist], you’ll note that he often refers to the Thomist position on predestination as very similar to his own Calvinist position (at least where the elect are concerned, I would hasten to add).

. . . and that does not demonstrate what I asked for. It doesn’t even come close. Note that it describes grace as “help.” So it’s saying grace is something that assists the willing sinner. This does not suggest that grace secures anyone’s willingness.

The Catechism wisely refrains from elaborate expositions of predestination. Catechisms are not systematic theologies. They are written for laymen attempting to understand and live out Catholic Christianity, not philosophers, theologians, or impractical people like us who have nothing better to do than sit around and discuss stuff like supralapsarianism, transubstantiation, and antidisestablishmentarianism. Even so, I think the three citations above — rightly understood — provide the stricter answer you are looking for.

Even semi-Pelagians believe that grace is a necessary aspect of salvation. No one has disputed that Roman Catholicism believes that much.

Not even Jack Chick or Tony Alamo et al?

But, Dave, the simple fact is that Rome does not believe grace actually secures the salvation, or even the willingness, of anyone.

And Bah humbug!!!!!!!!!!!! Patent falsehoods . . .

Indeed, this is a major point on which Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, Semi-Pelagians, and Arminians all agree against the Reformation: all these views deny that God has any control whatsoever in gaining the sinner’s cooperation and assent. Instead, conversion is left to “free will.” Therefore your God is helpless to save someone who is determined to pursue sin and rebellion.

This is abysmally ignorant and astonishing in one so learned and otherwise eloquent. Aside from the citations above, anyone can readily verify the outrageous falsity of these charges (at least with respect to Catholicism), by reading the following chapters from the Decree on Justification from the Council of Trent: 3, 5, 7, 8, and also the Canons 1-3. Catholic theologian Ludwig Ott states that the following proposition must be believed by all orthodox Catholics (a de fide dogma):

GOD, BY HIS ETERNAL RESOLVE OF WILL, HAS PREDETERMINED CERTAIN MEN TO ETERNAL BLESSEDNESS.

Ott says that the doctrinal definitions of Trent presuppose this.

Well, I urge anyone who really thinks I might be wrong to read those documents and see for yourself that there is nothing here to suggest that grace actually secures a positive response from the sinner. The grace described by Trent cannot ensure even the repentant sinner’s ultimate salvation. On the contrary, if you read the whole document, you will note that the Decree on Justification (chap. 15) teaches that those who receive grace can lose it by committing a mortal sin.

Of course. Just as in Calvinism, someone who goes to hell (due to mortal sin, in Catholicism) is obviously not among the elect (but even so, we can’t know that for sure, as we don’t know the eternal destiny of anyone — excepting instances such as Elijah). Calvinists have no more “assurance” than we do because when someone falls away, you simply say that proves he was not divinely elected.

We simply can’t know with certitude who is to be saved, and who damned, whatever the deluded self-confident claims are to the contrary. It reduces to an epistemological, not theological, problem. Believers in both parties, however, can certainly have a very high degree of assurance of being in right relation to God, especially if they are living righteous, upright lives, which is a sign of election in both systems.

[Snip stuff on Catholicism and predestination. I’ll leave all that to someone else.]

Very convenient for you! This is precisely what is most relevant to the discussion, and you want to “leave all that to someone else.” I assume, then, that you’ll “leave” the response to my predestination post to “someone else” too?

[he did, but no one else in a list of 100 or so Protestants — I was the lone active Catholic — ever took up the challenge]

You have in effect claimed that the Council of Trent affirmed the Calvinistic doctrine of Irresistable [sic] Grace.

No, you’re putting words in my mouth. But my predestination post ought to be of great comfort and use to you, when you see how similar we really are, just as I have been pleasantly surprised about Calvinism, the more I learn about it, from people who have been patient enough to explain it carefully.

My God [note the implication that Catholics, and even Arminian Protestants, worship a different God] on the other hand, can even effect the total turnaround of someone like Saul of Tarsus–or worse yet, Phillip Johnson.

Mine, too. We worship the same Lord.

I believe that Roman Catholicism, since Trent, has so seriously corrupted the doctrine of justification that it does not deserve to be regarded as authentic Christianity (cf. Gal. 1:8-9). I deplore Catholic doctrine, just as I deplore Mormon doctrine.

Then you are one confused individual indeed. This is self-defeating and ludicrously incoherent and thus unworthy to be adhered to by any educated Protestant.

That does not mean I dislike Roman Catholics, any more than it means I dislike Mormons. I have great love and concern for people trapped in the darkness of both systems. And for that very reason I would no more assume a Roman Catholic is a brother or sister in Christ than I would make such an assumption about a Socinian [non-trinitarian] “Protestant,” a gnostic new-age “Christian,” or anyone else who denies that Christ’s righteousness alone is the sole and sufficient ground of our justification.

What about John Wesley, or C. S. Lewis, or Dietrich Bonhoeffer, or Soren Kierkegaard? Are they equally as suspect in your eyes, on the same grounds? Mother Teresa and St. Francis of Assisi quite possibly in hell . . . ? This is so absurdly asinine, one wonders how to respond. I haven’t figured it out yet.

I believe Romans 4:4-5 makes a crystal-clear dichotomy: “To the one who works, his wage is not reckoned as a favor, but as what is due. But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness.” Verse 4 describes those who are working toward ultimate justification. Verse 5 contrasts them with true Christians, who refuse to work for any part of their justification — but instead they rest their whole confidence on a righteousness that is imputed to them. (See also Phil. 3:7-9.) I’ll leave it to you to declare which category you fit into.

I’m in the category of those who “work out” their “own salvation with fear and trembling; for God is at work in [me], both to will and to work for his good pleasure” (Phil 2:12-13 — NRSV; cf. Mt 5:20, 7:16-27, 16:27, Lk 14:13-14, Acts 6:7, 10:31,35, Rom 1:5, 2:5-13, 6:17, 10:16, 15:18-19, 16:25-6, 1 Cor 3:8-9,13, 4:5, 15:10,58, 2 Cor 5:10, Gal 5:6, 6:7-9, Eph 2:8-10, Col 3:23-25, 1 Thess 1:3, 2 Thess 1:8,11, 1 Tim 6:18-19, Titus 1:15-16, 3:5-8, Heb 11:8, Jas 1:22-27, 2:14-26[cf. Ps 106:30-31], 1 Pet 1:2,17, 2 Pet 1:10, Rev 22:12).

You think “works,” even those wholly wrought by God’s enabling grace, have nothing to do with justification and salvation. I think the Bible (per the above evidences) perspicuously teaches otherwise, which is why sola fide was unknown, according to Norman Geisler, between the times of Paul and Luther.

***

(originally from late 1996)

Photo credit: Art4TheGlryOfGod by Sharon (2-2-13) [Flickr / CC BY-ND 2.0 license]

***

2018-09-04T15:15:56-04:00

[patristic citations in blue]
*****

We are not intrinsically sinners. We were originally created without sin; baptism removes the penalties of original sin, and we will be sinless again if we make it to heaven. Righteousness comes only from God, and He transforms us, and we cooperate with him to become more holy all the time.

Grace is always primary and initial. As soon as we accept that grace we can then cooperate with it to do good works bathed in grace, and these works (and none other) are meritorious. At every Mass, Catholics examine themselves, confess their sins (venial) and acknowledge their unworthiness to receive Christ in the Eucharist, but for His grace.

The Law and the Gospel are not opposed to each other. Jesus and Paul taught that the Law by itself never saved anyone — it was always faith and grace. But that is not the same thing as saying that Law is antithetical to the Gospel. That was Luther’s error (one of many) and it is simply unbiblical. Matthew 5:17-20 is sufficient in itself to nail this point down. Salvation is a lifelong process, free will does cooperate after the initial pure act of grace by God. It can’t be otherwise.

Works alone (i.e., Pelagianism) is equally as unbiblical as faith alone. We believe in faith + works as two blades of a pair of scissors, or two sides of one coin. They can’t possibly be separated, or you can’t have either one. There is no such thing as a “scissor” with one blade. It can’t function that way.

Works, alone, in the sense of self-produced works considered as separate from God’s enabling grace, cannot save us The Law cannot save anyone without faith and grace, nor can internally generated works without faith and grace. I will now cite the Fathers, in their commentary on Romans 4.

Ancient Christian Commentary (general editor Thomas C. Oden, Downers Grove, Illinois: InterVarsity Press, 1998 – ):

Romans 4:2

Let no one think that someone who has faith enough to be justified and to have glory before God can at the same time have unrighteousness dwelling in him as well. For faith cannot coexist with unbelief, nor can righteousness with wickedness, just as light and darkness cannot live together. [Origen, Commentary on Romans]

Romans 4:4

Paul was speaking here of the way wages are given. But God gave by grace, because he gave to sinners so that by faith they might live justly, that is, do good works. Thus the good works which we do after we have received grace are not to be attributed to us but rather to him who has justified us by his grace. [St. Augustine, On Romans 21]

Romans 4:5

The root of righteousness does not spring from works; rather, the fruit of works grows from the root of righteousness, viz., by that root of righteousness by which God brings righteousness to the one whom he has accepted apart from works. [Origen, Commentary on Romans]

God makes the ungodly man godly, in order that he might persevere in this godliness and righteousness. For a man is justified in order that he might be just, not so that he might think it is all right to go on sinning. [St. Augustine, On Romans 22]

Paul, in Romans 3:28, separates faith from “works of the law,” which is different from works per se. Paul was saying that the Jews were not saved by the OT Law, but by faith all along. But that does not mean the Law is of no effect, or therefore null and void, as he points out in 3:31 (cf. Jesus’ statement in Matt 5:17-20). Likewise, when he goes on to contrast Abraham’s faith and “works” in chapter 4, he continues to refer to the Old Testament Law, not works in general (see, e.g., 4: 10, 13-16).

Now I’ll cite the Fathers in their comments on Romans 2-3 as well:

Ancient Christian Commentary:

Romans 2:2

The deeds of both a good and an evil man pass away, but they shape and construct the mind of the doer according to their respective quality and leave it either good or bad and accordingly destined to receive either punishment or rewards. [Origen, Commentary on Romans]

Romans 2:5

Now let us consider what is meant by the just judgment of God, in which he will reward each one according to his works. First of all we must reject the heretics who say that souls are good or evil by nature and maintain instead that God will reward each one according to his deeds and not according to his nature. Second, believers are to be instructed not to think that it is enough merely to believe [lacking fruit]; they ought to realize that the just judgment of God will reward each one according to his works. [Origen, Commentary on Romans]

Romans 2:7

God has given that which is good, and those who do it will receive glory and honor because they have done good when they had it in their power not to do so. But those who do not do it will receive the just judgment of God, because they did not do good when they had it in their power to do so. [St. Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 4.37.1]

Here Paul stirs up those who had fallen away during the persecutions and shows that it is not right to trust in faith only. For God’s tribunal will demand deeds as well. [St. John Chrysostom, Homilies on Romans 5]

Therefore, those who seek eternal life are not merely those who believe correctly but those who live correctly as well. [Ambrosiaster, Commentary on Paul’s Epistles]

Well-doing is for a time, but the reward is eternal . . . Paul wanted to show that there are many rewards for those who are good. [Theodoret, Interpretation of Romans]

Romans 2:10

Therefore I do not think it can be doubted that someone who deserves to be condemned because of his evil deeds will also be considered worthy of the reward of good works if he does something good [he then cites 2 Cor 5:10]. [Origen, Commentary on Romans]

It is on works that punishment and reward depend, not on circumcision and uncircumcision . . . For in this passage it is the Jews that he is mainly opposing. [St. John Chrysostom, Homilies on Romans 5]

Romans 2:11

Paul says that Jews differed from Gentiles, not in their actions but in their persons only. But it is not for this reason that one is honored and the other disgraced. It is from their works that honor or disgrace will come. [St. John Chrysostom, Homilies on Romans 5]

Romans 2:12

By ‘law’ he means the law of Moses, to which the Jews are bound although they do not believe. The Gentiles are also under the judgment of the natural law, but only insofar as they have chosen not to attach themselves to it. [Ambrosiaster, Commentary on Paul’s Epistles]

Romans 2:13

What benefit is it if, while listening each day, we neglect to practice what we hear? Hence I beseech you, let us be zealous in practicing those very deeds (by no other way, in fact, is it possible to be saved) so that we may also wash away our sins and be granted the Lord’s lovingkindness at his own hands, thanks to the grace and mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ. [St. John Chrysostom, Homilies on Genesis 47.18]

Romans 2:14

When Paul is challenging the pride of Judaism, he is careful not to appear to be condemning the law as such. On the contrary, by extolling the law and showing its greatness he makes good his whole position. [St. John Chrysostom, Homilies on Romans 5]

Romans 2:25

If the containment of evil which circumcision signifies is not matched by works of faith, it is regarded as a form of wickedness. Even in the church, if someone is ‘circumcised’ by the grace of baptism and then becomes a transgressor of the law of Christ, the circumcision of baptism is reckoned to him as uncircumcision, because ‘faith without works is dead’. [Origen, Commentary on Romans]

Romans 2:29

Paul sets aside everything which is merely of the body. For the circumcision is external, and so are the sabbaths, the sacrifices and the purifications . . . The Gentile who does right is more praiseworthy than the Jew who breaks the law. When this is agreed upon, the circumcision of the flesh must be set aside, and the need for a good life is everywhere demonstrated. 
[St. John Chrysostom, Homilies on Romans 6]

This means that the law should be understood according to the Spirit, and not according to what the letter says. [St. Augustine, On Romans 11]

Romans 3:10

I think that here the apostle is saying that no one has done good in the sense that no one has brought goodness to perfection and completion. 
[Origen, Commentary on Romans]

Romans 3:20

Once more Paul jumps on the law but this time with restraint, for what he says is an accusation not against the law but against the negligence of the covenant people. 
[St. John Chrysostom, Homilies on Romans 7]

Some think that statements like this are an attack on the law. But they must be read very carefully, so that neither is the law condemned by the apostle nor is free will taken away from man . . . The law is good because it forbids what ought to be forbidden and requires what ought to be required. But when anyone thinks he can fulfill the law in his own strength and not through the grace of his Deliverer, this presumption does him no good but rather harms him so much that he is seized by an even stronger desire to sin and by his sins ends up as a transgressor. [St. Augustine, On Romans 13-18]

Romans 3:21

The apostle mentions many different kinds of law in this epistle, and only the most attentive reader will be able to detect when he is shifting from one to another . . . Do not be surprised that the word ‘law’ is used here in two different senses! . . .

Moreover, there is a way to tell which meaning of the word ‘law’ is intended. The Greek language uses articles in front of proper names. Thus when the law of Moses is intended, the article is used, but when the natural law is meant, the article is omitted. 
[Origen, Commentary on Romans]

For when the law held them guilty, the righteousness of God forgave them and did so apart from the law so that until the law was brought to bear God forgave them their sin. And lest someone think that this was done against the law, Paul added that the righteousness of God had a witness in the Law and the Prophets, which means that the law itself had said that in the future someone would come who would save mankind. But it was not allowed for the law to forgive sin. [Ambrosiaster, Commentary on Paul’s Epistles]

Paul does not say that the righteousness of God has been ‘given’ but that it has been ‘manifested,’ thus destroying the accusation that it is something new. For what is manifested is old but previously concealed. He reinforces this point by going on to mention that the Law and the Prophets had foretold it. [St. John Chrysostom, Homilies on Romans 7]

The righteousness of God is not manifested outside the law, since in that case it could not have been witnessed to in the law. It is a righteousness of God apart from the law because God confers it on the believer through the Spirit of grace without the help of the law. [St. Augustine, The Spirit and the Letter 15]

Romans 3:22

How could Paul have promised glory, honor and peace to the good works of the Gentiles apart from the grace of the gospel? Because there otherwise is no acceptance of persons with God. And because it is not the hearers but the doers of the law who are justified, he argues that all, whether Jew or Gentile, shall alike have salvation in the gospel. [St. Augustine, The Spirit and the Letter 44]

Romans 3:28

Paul says that a Gentile can be sure that he is justified by faith without doing the works of the law, e.g., circumcision or new moons or the veneration of the sabbath. [Ambrosiaster, Commentary on Paul’s Epistles]

Paul did not say ‘we hold’ because he was himself uncertain. He said it in order to counter those who concluded from this that anyone who wished to could be justified simply by willing faith. Note carefully that Paul does not say simply ‘without the law,’ as if we could just perform virtue by wanting to, nor do we do the works of the law by force. We do them because we have been led to do them by Christ. [Theodore of Mopsuestia, Pauline Commentary From the Greek Church]

Paul says this because we cannot be justified by the works of the law but only by faith. [Pseudo-Constantius, The Holy Letter of St. Paul to the Romans]

This must not be understood in such a way as to say that a man who has received faith and continues to live is righteous, even though he leads a wicked life. [St. Augustine, Questions 76.1]

Romans 3:31

The Lord himself said ‘I have not come to abolish the law but to fulfill it.’ None of the saints nor even the Lord himself has destroyed the law. Rather its glory, which is temporal and transient, has been destroyed and replaced by a glory which is eternal and permanent. [Origen, Commentary on Romans]

Paul says that the law is not nullified by faith but fulfilled . . . . . [Ambrosiaster, Commentary on Paul’s Epistles]

[B]y freedom of choice comes the love of righteousness; by the love of righteousness comes the working of the law. Thus, as the law is not made void but established by faith, since faith obtains the grace whereby the law may be fulfilled, so freedom of choice is not made void but established by grace, since grace heals the will whereby righteousness may freely be loved. [St. Augustine, The Spirit and the Letter 52]

As for Paul’s usage of “works of the law” in a technical sense, referring primarily to the Jews (i.e., ones who misunderstood the essence of the Law, not all), I cite The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia (ed. James Orr, Grand Rapids, Michigan: Eerdmans, 1939/1956, rep. 1974, vol. 5, “Works,” p. 3105):

‘Works’ is used by Paul and James, in a special sense, as denoting (with Paul) those legal performances by means of which men sought to be accepted by God, in contradistinction to that faith in Christ through which the sinner is justified apart from all legal works (Rom 3:27; 4:2,6, etc.; Gal 2:16; 3:2,5,10) . . . Judgment is according to ‘works’ (Mt 16:27 . . . Rom 2:6, 1 Pet 1:17, etc.), the new life being therein evidenced. A contrast between ‘faith’ and ‘good works’ is never drawn in the NT. [W.L. Walker – Congregational Minister]


The determination of when this meaning of the “works of the law” occurs is fairly easily obtained by consulting context. If we examine the passages mentioned above in this vein, we can readily see the suggested technical sense by looking at surrounding indications of the Mosaic Law (i.e., relied upon over against grace and faith, which was always wrong and improper at any time; see, e.g., Romans 2:28, 10:1-4; Gal 6:13). For instance:

Romans 3:27-29: “circumcised” mentioned in v.30; mention of Jews and Gentiles in v.29; “the law” referred to twice in v.31. Paul states there that – far from “overthrowing” the law by faith -, we, rather, “uphold” it (cf. 9:30-33)

Romans 4:2: “the flesh” mentioned in v.1, in reference to Abraham; circumcision referred to in vss. 9-12. In 4:13 he states that the Abrahamic covenant came not through the law but through “the righteousness of faith” (cf. 4:14-16; 6:14-15).

Galatians 2:16: Paul rebukes Peter for his “Judaizing” actions in 2:11-12

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(originally 2-16-01)

Photo credit:  Fresco of St. John Chrysostom, lower register of sanctuary in Church of the Theotokos Peribleptos in Ohrid, Macedonia (13th century) [public domain / Wikimedia Commons]

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