According to an article yesterday on Mashable, Ebay has basically banned the sell of witchcraft from it’s site. Specifically it’s 2012 Fall Seller Update Information article states that it’s banned the sale of “advice; spells; curses; hexing; conjuring; magic; prayers; blessing services; magic potions; healing sessions” as of August 30, 2012. Online rumors indicate that Etsy might not be far behind enforcing a similar ban, though there’s no proof I can offer on that one as of yet.
In various online discussions I’ve viewed, there is much focus on the idea that this is intentional religious discrimination against Pagans. I’ll be honest, I don’t use Ebay. The few times I’ve tried it, I either received something completely not what I ordered, or received nothing and had to fight to get my money back. I have, however, wasted a few minutes of my life browsing the site and shaking my head over ads for listings for “POWERFUL FEMALE SUCCUBUS LOVER SPELL nympho sex love lust nymph magic genie FAST” and “Haunted Sexual Vitality ULTIMATE PENIS ENLARGEMENT SPELL MAKE HER BEG FOR MORE” (100% guaranteed to work!).
Crap like this makes any legitimate spell caster come off looking like a crook. It’s the difference between a tarot reader who helps counsel someone on an issue in their life, and the reader who tells a client that they can remove the curse on them for $20,000 (right before they have to mysteriously leave town). Given the huge number of these kinds of ads, and with no ability for a buyer to prove it was or wasn’t successful to get their money back, I sort of see Ebay’s point for banning them.
A quick search for “I will pray for you” only brings back one hit, a clearly Christian ad to pray to the seller’s God, the Virgin Mary, or a saint for $5-$10 dollars, so this ban will effect, in some small amount, more than just Pagan practitioners. I’m somewhat more upset about the ban on magical potions, as at least a buyer is getting something tangible for their money, though again, whether it’s legit or not is almost impossible to tell. Same with “healing sessions”, which will ban all Reiki ads.
So does this ban actually constitute religious discrimination? It certainly doesn’t narrow the ban down to “Pagan prayer” or “Wiccan spells”. I admit I’m a bit torn on the subject. While I see the possible beginning of the end for sellers on sites like this, I won’t be sad to see the sham “spell casters” go, and the end of taking advantage of desperate people with promises of something that can’t possibly be delivered. As I sell products of a magical variety, I definitely don’t want to lose my Etsy shop.
But are magic spells and potions actual religious items? As both a Pagan and a witch, there is a line for me between my religion and my magical practice. All I need for my religion is my faith in deity. I can pray with no accouterments, speak with my deities with nothing but my words or thoughts. Spells, potions and magic are a separate thing that I do to incite change in my world, or the world of a client.
I might not be thrilled at the limiting of my ability to do these things on a certain online site, but I’m not convinced that it’s religious discrimination. Thoughts?
I feel that goods being sold online should be tangable. Things like prayers, spells, removing curses… dont belong.. However I am all for these things being offerred on Private web sites.
I don’t see a problem as long as they are not banning the sale of tangible items, related to witchcraft and Paganism. I love that Etsy has handmade candles, and other items that could be used for an alter or just decoration. If anything remotely Pagan is banned then that would be a problem, but intangible things that you can never physically receive I can understand banning that.
The ban probably has more to do with selling a good that is intangible than with selling a good that is related to witchcraft. Ebay offers things like “Buyer Protection” and sanctions people who do not ship within a period of time. They face a much greater liability if they allow people to sell things that aren’t tangible. Also, I wouldn’t have any trouble with someone selling a face to face tarot session, for example, it’s similar to a massage package, but conducting these things remotely invites crooks of many kinds. It doesn’t sound like this ban would impact people selling services provided face to face appointments. It’s an attempt to reduce liability make shopping safer for stupid people.
When I clicked on this article I was thinking the ban was on ritual tools which I have often browsed on both sites. If they are simply getting rid of bogus promises that are hurting consumers then I am all for it as long as it crosses all religious fields.
Yay that they’re banning the things which are clearly hoaxes meant to deprive people of money at a time of crisis. However, it’s sad that some people may find themselves bereft of legitimate advice from a tarot reader when they may not be fortunate enough to have one in their town they can refer to. (Hey, some towns still have fortune-telling bans.) I hope the best of the Ebay and possibly Etsy tarot readers will set up their own sites if they haven’t already. After all, Paypal hasn’t put the kibosh on it yet.
The tricky part is that they aren’t “clearly hoaxes.” The potential for hoax is very high, but I am sure at least some of the offerings come from people who are perfectly sincere. A lot of Reiki people, for instance, are very committed to the idea that they can do long-distance healing. However, in my opinion at least, the sincere people would be in the small minority.
I think it’s important to remember that neither Etsy nor eBay were conceived as places to sell non-tangible goods. One could look at this as a step towards returning to their core mission.
The thing that concerns me is that there is a very fine line, if one at all, between magical and religious items. What if there was a scrying mirror for sale? It might be a great addition to your altar for communications with your gods, but if it’s listed as specifically a scrying mirror, it may not pass the eligibility of items that you can sell on these sites. However, I do understand the reason behind these bans. Someone should be talking to the people upstairs in these companies and explain why this makes our community a little nervous.
If you’re selling a scrying mirror, it seems that would be fine. If you’re offering to do a scrying for cash, that seems to be where the line is currently being placed.
Services with intangible results are being banned currently, not products that are sold.
I’m actually hoping that this encourages more sellers to move off eBay to other platforms. eBay is a terrible place to be a vendor – they can (and do) force refunds without the customer returning the item, force refunds when the item has been destroyed by the customer, and they always side with the buyer in disputes. If you sell on eBay, you have no protection, regardless of what you sell.
On the other hand, I don’t think it’s religious discrimination. I think it’s eBay further narrowing down the items that they will sell, and refusing to sell intangibles, which they have every right to do. The fact that they’re also refusing to sell items that people make outlandish, unprovable claims about (“This lamp will give you three wishes! Bidding starts at $500!”) goes along with that.
I will be interested to see what they ban next. Etsy has already changed it’s list of prohibited items to include some very nebulous language that will make things difficult for sellers of herbs to remain on that platform.
I would be bummed, even if I haven’t gotten anything for a while, I’m going to be refilling my supplies as soon as I start making money on my yarn stuff again-oddly no one wants to buy a scarf or hat when it’s 100f, go figure. But I’m not convinced it’s religious discrimination either. There are so many people out there who will do their level best to take advantage of the unknowledgeable and it’s a real shame, as that also puts the ethical people under the same suspicion. They do it in emails, on TV, on the internet, in person-there’s sadly no lack of people out there looking to take advantage of another if they possibly can. I think this is what Ebay and possibly now Etsy are trying to ban, not the legitimate practice, but the scam, of which there are many.
This news is tragic and depressing. I already hated ebay/paypal. I want to know where the line is. Are the Virgin Mary candles banned just like pagan money candles? Are they allowing for workable solutions/compromises such as removing claims for “increased health/love/money/etc” but listing by god/goddess name? I think it’s a witchhunt. Hate is a terrible feeling. I don’t want this feeling but I hate these companies.
It’s my understanding at this point that actual physical candles will not be banned, but only those who would do a spell on your behalf, without sending you a tangible product.
Someone mentioned on another thread that, after calling ebay, they basically told her just to move her stuff to different categories, that products will not be banned, just intangible “items”.
I would say set up ur own site like ebay strictly for spellcasters call it spellbound or magicbay there will always be someone who discrimates against the craft its not fair but thats how it is
From what I understand, a pagan money candle can still be sold. I can still sell you magical supplies. The issue is that I can’t sell you a spell. For example, when you see the listings that say “I’ve been Wiccan for 20 years. I will cast a powerful spell which will make you lose 20 pounds for the highest bidder” THOSE listings are banned.
There are so many crazy listings in the “other” category I gave up looking for anything there. You find a much better supply of herbs and altar tools in the “collectables>religion and spirituality>wicca and paganism” category. Less Miss Cleo, more legitimate herbs. In a way it’s a good thing. Those new to the craft or just looking to get even are going to have a difficult time getting what they want. An experienced practitioner, serious about her (or his) practice will research what she needs instead of having it handed to her. This path isn’t easy and simple like that. So in a way, they are actually doing all of us a favor. The general public won’t have to see the imposters and newbies may be required to do the research and work if they want a spell. Maybe they will learn about the rest while they’re looking!
I see a lot of listings that make no claims as to what the herb will do, but have folklore and historical uses listed. “Native Americans used sage for cleansing”, etc. I hope this is still allowed because that’s how I shop!
I sell on Etsy too, but not pagan items yet. I was hoping to open another store specifically for my portable altar kits and willow pentacle wreaths, but I’ll have to do more research now!
Can’t tangible goods like potions and oils and things be OK for sale with a disclaimer that the vendor makes no claims of efficacy, or some such legal megillah?
I read the statement from eBay. I agree that these things should not be sold on the internet. I am for paying a spiritual counselor because they need to eat too. But some of the things sold as potions and spells just makes legitimate Pagan spiritual counselors look bad. Unfortunately, our community doesn’t have organized groups that can support our clergy financially like the Christian community.
I think they’re probably going for a number of things – the foremost being cutting their losses on cases where someone bought services and then the might didn’t “come through”, I suppose, for them. The other would be keeping people from being upset that such services are offered from other religions. I don’t think it’s discrimination because I honestly think they would consider the Christian aspect almost immediately after the Witchcraft one.
I also would comment that I really dislike these kind of services – I have nothing against people who purchase them, but those who sell them in such an impersonal manner seems cold and alien to the way I practice. And I am aware of cases where people sold “spells” and whatnot, to grift money from people with no intention of doing anything actively to help anyone. So, while all sides might not be happy, they are most likely considering that this is protecting themselves and their customers as well.
I’m ok with this. I’m a little iffy on the potions but I can see where they’re coming from if the so-called potion is being sold with an intangible end result in mind. And then there’s the small issue of not being able to tell what is really in it and running the risk of poisoning, especially if it is supposed to be worn or consumed.
As long as it includes ALL religious blessings and such, then I wouldn’t think of it as religious discrimination. I do a lot of business on Ebay, and can see where they are coming from. They don’t want to be accused of backing bogus sellers. For the people who do legit blessings they just need to adjust their wording. Ther are soooo many ways around restrictions with different word usage.
Spells and prayers for sale have long fallen under fraud laws. This is the reason so many things (like Miss Cleo’s Psychic Friends readings — remember those?) have the disclaimer “for entertainment purposes only.” Sounds like ebay is just catching up.
I still love the lead FBI investigator’s comment on that, “She should have seen this coming”. Guy should have been a comedian!
I’m thinking that it’s just intangible, subjective results that are banned. Who is to say you did or didn’t get what you paid for? EBay sure as heck can’t tell. If it’s an item, you’ll be fine. Except for potions, it seems, but… how do you know what they put in it? What if they tell you to drink it, and it turns out to be poisonous?? Plus, potions… it’s another promise of what it will do, and how can you prove it didn’t?
Well I used to buy from eBay quite a bit & still do buy gobs of things from Half .com and if all they’re doing is banning intangible “items” I have nothing wrong with it. They are quite frankly a business & need to protect themselves. I would also think they’re protecting legitimate sellers as well.
Personally I never dreamed you could buy something like a prayer or tarot reading from eBay. There are some many more “respectible” places I would look for such things. I agree with the other comment that a true seeker will have no issue finding those services. I know of several bloggers who offer tarot reading that I’ve found just as part of my spiritual path. Plus I “know” them & would have much more faith In them than some random stranger on eBay.
I agree that eBay listings sound like they are there more to take advantage of the gullible & those who want easy answers. Also how hard would it be for a buyer to say “I didn’t like what that reader told me” & demand their money back even after getting a legit reading? Again this protects true readers instead of those scamming in bulk & giving fantasticly positive readings to everyone.
I’d love to go into the issues I have with those who claim “well Pagan clergy needs a way to make a living”. Firstly, it seems all Pagans are clergy so why do some seem to feel more entitled to this money than others? This seems more like an excuse for not having to get a full time job in a different field yet not having a Pagan related product that is in demand enough to make money from it, yet still feeling entitled to payment. It seems tons of artists would love to do their art full time, or actors, or poets. But we all have to, unfortunately, live in the real world. Again, here’s that idea that those upset by this are not real seekers & just want Paganism/witchcraft to give them easy answers and quick fixes.
While they’re at getting rid of pagan stuff they might as well ban people claiming they can perform exorcisms for certain pricing and airfares “they” claim that they need
I’m of a mind to agree with Ebay’s decision. I’m sorry, if you want to charge for services, advertise on Craigslist, in the paper, or somewhere else. Leave auction sites like Ebay and Etsy for people selling products. As long as Ebay doesn’t stop people from selling witchcraft related paraphernalia, I’m cool. Now, on the “potions” note…are they including blended oils, magical waters, powders, and other misc magickal stuff? Those things are a big part of magickal practice for some people…I know I use a lot of blended oils and powders and some of them I do get off ebay because that’s where people I know sell it.
If they remove those things, that’s not cool. However, if there’s a way around it, like labeling an oil as an Essential Oil Blend for Protection, rather than Protection Potion..well then I guess people can just get more creative with their names.
I’m not sure how I feel about this, exactly. On the one hand, banning the sale of intangible “items” makes good business sense. On the other hand, the way it’s stated it could potentially lead to problems for purveyors of legitimate services (and who’s to say what’s legitimate anyway?). It could also lead to problems with tangible products.
The only actual opinion I have is that if you choose to pay cash money for a nympho-succubus spell, you probably deserve what you get whether it works or not. The phrase “caveat emptor” comes to mind, particularly for a place like the global yard sale that is ebay.
I’m actually a bit fond of this idea. An old friend of mine had contacted me a while ago, and was excited to tell me that she had converted to Paganism, and wanted to exchange ideas and rituals with me. It came to be very obvious, though, that many of the things she had encountered and invested in were bogus and made up, every bit as fake as those books sold at Barnes & Nobles about Dragonology and such. She even showed me a picture of an altar she set up, and it looked like it came from some lame video game (one of her ‘wands’ was that of Sailor Moon’s). Soon after this, I found an entire community of people who had bought into the same junk, buying plastic lumps that they believed to be magic crystals, and talking of spells to transform themselves into mermaids and such. This scam needs to end now, as I am finding myself short of patience when seeking out Pagan companions.
well obvisly your looking in the wrong places,go to paganspace.com and sign up! lovly ppl there.
couldnt agree more. this happened to me a lot in high school ppl would come to me for advice but when they saw that i wasnt practicing the made up crap they proceeded to call me the fake. ugh.
I can see both sides… I totally understand wanting to “ban” huxters and shysters for taking money for SAYING they’ll pray for you, or for potions that usually end up being colored water. Ebay has to keep it so that they can’t be implicated in a crime (ie: sending alcohol/tinctures/elixers) through the mail system… In the end.. it’s their business.. Ebay is there to make money. WE do *not* have a *RIGHT* to use it’s services…it’s a priviledge.. and as a money-making business..we can’t dictate to them what they can and cannot sell… only the Government can, really.. and TBH.. even that is going too far
Reading this is does sound as though it’s mostly to stop the gullible types buying love potions and get rich quick spells etc etc… Provided it crosses all religions then there shouldn’t be an issue. Its just a shame that there are people that would take advantage of others and make us actual followers, believers, practitioners look just as bad to those who don’t ‘get it’ :-/
After further reading I do not disagree with this at all. The first time I located spell recipes & prayer on etsy & ebay I was actually fairly appalled. From what I have learned by myself and been taught by older pagans is that these things are to be given freely, as well as things such as magic love potions and things like this… have these ppl lost their way and what they have been taught. This is against the code I know of!
Blessed Be!
http://ElementalKarma.Etsy.com
Your code is not universal. There is no one true flavor of Paganism. Not all Pagans are Wiccans, not all Pagans believe things ‘come back threefold’, and not all Pagans follow the tenets that you have been taught.
That doesn’t mean they’ve ‘lost their way’ – no more than Buddhists are misguided Hindus, no more than Lutherans need to find their way back to Catholicism, no more than Pagans need to find Jesus… And so on.
I totally agree!!!!!
absolutely! the decision to ban “all magic” from ebay is on the face of it a generalization of all magic. in the comments there is a woman who used to provide distance reiki sessions, something I would never purchase and still… if it worked for her customers then how can anyone else ban the sale of a service provided?
I’m hoping that this highlights for small business owners as well as the grifters that it is time to move on from eBay and find or create other more appropriate sites for their services.
I’m also hoping that some amount of tolerance and temperance is learned both inside of and outside of the pagan community that has so many beliefs and faiths and practices. Discrimination isn’t new, it’s uglier from within than from without.
How is my selling of a spell kit, in which I’ve used my knowledge, skill and talent to craft any different from your selling of your crafts in your Etsy store?
I’m not aware of any “code” that states “though shalt not make a living”.
Having looked into what catagories are being banned, Everything Else > Metaphysical > Wicca > Candles and Everything Else > Metaphysical > Wicca > Kits are not up for discontinuation. I read this to mean that spell kits are still able to be sold, just in this category instead of the >spells one
I agree
because spells are and should be shared freely! There is a difference in me spending my money to MAKE a product and sell it than you selling a piece of paper with a “SPELL” or Ingredients list for a “Potion”….. In what religion is KNOWLEDGE paid for…. there is a difference from a product to knowledge….. just as if someone asked how to MAKE one of my products I would freely give them the information
So should we boycott authors who write spell books because they are selling knowledge?
I have never bought a book with spells and never will! Always was freely given my information & knowledge as a Pagan and even when I grew up in a Christian household every Bible I owned I was given by a minister or other church official. What you do is your own damn business is your opinion and I stated mine and apparently caught hell from ppl who dont like ppl with other opinions… and really could care less …. Blessed Be and have a Good Day!
I don’t see where anyone has given you “hell” over anything, but simply asking questions about your take on it. That’s how people learn, by having discussions with other folks about differing opinions.
If you don’t care to purchase books by Pagan authors, that’s absolutely your choice. I was merely asking a question.
For me, I love supporting the folks who go out of their way to collect information, taking months, if not years, researching, experimenting and writing out books for others. Though I write most of my own works, I love getting new ideas from different faiths, different traditions and from creative people who are able to expand my mind and give me new things to think about.
I suppose that’s not for everyone, however, and that’s fine.
You are confusing Pagan and Wiccan. Traditional Wiccan ethics do not allow for the sale of spells/potions. This does not apply to all Pagan belief systems.
Over on Etsy, I’ve seen readings listed that state they will email you a photo of your reading. Etsy’s policies already state that you can only sell tangible items. By offering a digital photo, do you all think this would this fall under the “Digital delivered goods policy”, which can be listed under Everything Else>Information Products with the Classified Ads format?
No. I would flag a listing like that.
“ legitimate spell caster”
you are delusional.
Then I’m happily delusional. At least I’m not a troll.
but… there’s no such thing as magic. to believe so, shows your mind is broken.
Aw2g, Magic is real. When you walk into a church, and you feel at peace, it’s because of the people who pray there, add candles, music and insense, that is what magic is. Because you can’t feel anything your mind is broken.
I guess it depends on whether or not the seller is selling something real. For example I could see a shaman (I use the term because everyone understands it) selling a retrieval. As for spells, meh – its really what you put into it, honestly a body should do the work themselves rather than rely on someone elses intentions. Its a very fine line between what is religious and what is not, the communion plate for example is not religous although used in religous services. The wafer however is because of the inherent symbolism. Altar plates for pagans would be much the same, as would chalices, clothing etc.
I have an instinctive dislike of someone telling me I can’t do something, makes me want to do it, however; I do think somehow we as a community have to do something to stop the whole caveat emptor relationship between “some” sellers and buyers. The problem is for every one real pagan selling a genuine good or service there are ten I am in it for the money I can bilk you for’s.
I do agree that selling “majic” promises for love and money are wrong. I think this is good, however I am thankful that the tools used in my practice are not banned. I do buy some of my items online.
I am extremely happy to see eBay FINALLY taking action on this issue. People CLAIMING to cast spells or otherwise do magickal work for customers on eBay do NOT help the cause of the Pagan community! We already have enough propaganda and ignorance working against us, why would ANYONE be upset that eBay is cutting Fraud out of the picture. The ONLY thing these auctions did was give credible Witches and Pagans a bad name! I’m ashamed to see such a negative article or even a mention of “religious discrimination” on this issue here. It’s NOT a negative thing, it’s a good thing as it stops innocent people from being ripped off in the name of witchcraft. And it’s NOT discrimination as it also applies to Prayer and other similar Non-Pagan services of this kind. If they were specifically banning PAGAN items or sales, it would be discrimination, but the fact is, they aren’t! Tangible items are still for sale, and are NOT being banned! Instead they are banning “services” which are most often not reputable in the first place. I bet if they had banned “prayer” instead of “spells” the Pagan community wouldn’t be bothered… which saddens me! As Pagans we should be working not only for the good of our own community, but of others as well, which includes supporting actions which stop fraud and theft!
I can see why they’d be banning spells or prayers, although if you do buy a spell or prayer over ebay…I have to question your intelligence to begin with. I hope, however, that wouldn’t include such tangible items such as prayer or spell candles.
As long as they aren’t banning things like wands, pentagrams, cauldrons, stones, incense, herbs, etc, etc, I don’t see how it’s religious descrimination. Anyone who takes advantage of another to make money definitely isn’t Wiccan… and I, for one, wouldn’t be sad to see people like that kicked off of the site.
This is bull. Just because we aren’t mainstream doesn’t give them to deem us bad. I alot of Christians that break every commandment every day. IF they ban us then ban Christian sales. Wicca is even acceted by the military as a true religion. Stand strong.
As long as it’s ALL religious intangible services, I don’t
see a problem.
I have been casting spell for others for over 35years and have Never asked for cash! I guess Im very old school,I have been given gifts (Not Cash) once and awhile.But that was all up to them.I feel it is totally wrong to feed on others!I understand asking to be reimbursed for ingredients but that is it.
I respectfully have to say that I think there’s a difference between “feeding on others” and making a reasonable profit for your work and talents. I do think that there are people who take advantage, and that work should never take advantage of those who can’t afford it, but I also think that crafting something that someone else might not have the knowledge or skill to create is legitimate work.
i don’t want tools or apparel banished but hoax stuff ya fine
I don’t see this as discrimination against Pagans or Witchcraft specifically, as the author mentions the ban includes such intangibles as “prayers” or “blessings”, which could just as easily apply to non-pagans. It seems a shame though to ban “potions” – what if they are totally legal essential oils or something like that? Maybe better labeling is the key to that.
Martin Luther started the reformation by critiquing the selling of indulgences, why would this be different?
Ignorance cubed.
I have long thought that the bs surrounding paganism and witchcraft and these amazing spells for falling in love and getting revenge, etc needed to be cleaned up, but as usual, sounds like they are taking it one step further than is necessary…..
Ignorance to the fifth power. If ebay is going to bar what they feel are “bogus” products, it should be across the board and not pick on “witchcraft.”
The problem is that many pagan shops have been forcibly closed as well. The ban also does ritual tools and various other items we pagans use in our practice of our faith. eBay is trying hard to get rid of the bogus people who are out for a buck, but banning ALL isn’t the way to do it.
It also has to go across ALL religions, so if we can’t buy an altar on eBay any longer or altar bells or candle then likewise I would expect that Christians cannot buy statues of Mary or Joseph or Jesus. Otherwise regardless of how nicely they wrap it up in rhetoric it is still a war against pagans.
How do you distinguish between legitimate, intangible magical services and products and illegitimate, intangible magical services and products? For that matter how do you distinguish between legitimate and illegitimate tangible magical services and products?
My options is probably at odds with many folks but here it is… People have been selling snake oil for centuries, I have no sympathy for people who punches such things. Nor really for folks who sell them. Magick is the power of change in whatever form it takes. If people adults I mean are so gullible that they buy a potion that makes them beautiful, or someone fall in love with them or makes them rich, then so be it. I personally don’t buy from EBay because of the risk of encountering such fraudulent sellers. I think they would be better served by a simple disclaimer of “Buyer Beware”. It’s a sad fact that people have been mislead about Wicca, Witchcraft, and Pagans in general that they believe almost anything that has the name attached. Perhaps a lesson in reality would teach them to be more cautious. Now, where I draw the line and where the real risk lays.. Potions, elixirs, herbs, etc can pose real risks to people if they are allergic or if they a not mixed correctly. Such things rarely fall under the purview of a monitoring agency. This can pose serious health risks for the unwary. Buyer beware indeed….
I absolutely agree, spells do not belong to eBay. What I do hope though is that eBay won’t stop allowing items for sale, e.g. herbs, alter things, books and so on.
I don’t shop Ebay often, but in looking at it from thier point of view, I would have to agree, as long as it would be for any religion such as the example of prayers costing 5-10.00 on a Christian ad. That type of thing should be banned also.
If all tangible items that could be construed as Pagan were banned than it would be discrimination. A slight change in the titles of items that are potions and spells could eliminate a ban on those particular items. To this point, and at this time, no, I don’t feel it is discrimination. Being a Pagan/Witch, I wouldn’t shop Ebay for potions etc anyway. You just don’t know what you are getting.
Sounds like a good idea to me.
Selling prayers and spells, etc. shouldn’t be allowed on Ebay. It’s just an open field for fraudsters. Disallowing this kind of thing certain is not religious discrimination.
Selling something like a spell kit is different though. That’s something tangible that people can receive in the mail and perform the spell however they wish. It’s not my kind of thing, but there’s nothing wrong with selling such things.
I do however, think that selling “potions” should not be allowed. Incense, oils, etc. sure, but something like a homemade “potion” could be potentially dangerous. Is it supposed to be ingested? Burnt? Bathed in? Ultimately, if the safety of it’s ingredients and use aren’t monitored or regulated, it’s best not bought and best not sold.
An open letter to eBay-
To whom it may concern
I am writing to eBay to express my dismay over your recent decision to remove certain categories under the metaphysical heading. While I understand some few sub-par sellers may have caused charge back issues, this is certainly not the norm among sellers in the Metaphysical categories. Most have exemplary feedback and many happy and satisfied repeat customers. In fact, the feedback of metaphysical sellers as a whole is probably far better than sellers of electronics and other like merchandise.
There has also been the statement made that many sellers are dealing in ‘intangible’ items. While we understand this poses an issue with eBay/Paypal dealing with refunds and charge backs when nothing is mailed, selling an intangible item has long been against eBay policy anyway. Many sellers know this and DO mail items to their customers. Those that do not should be educated in eBay rules to cease this practice which has long been against policy.
What is alarming now is that the blanket term of ‘intangilbe item’ is being used to ban actual ITEMS. Jewelry, crystals, stones and other items with ADDED energy work or yes, what is commonly called ‘spells’, are being targeted. What concerns me is your purposed selective enforcement of what you(eBay) terms ‘intangible’. It seems you only have targeted those sellers who offer items of a certain occult or esoteric nature, ie. pagan beliefs and witchcraft. Magic, Spells, items of a paranormal or psychic nature, etc….
Sellers have also been told (via EBay’s Facebook) that the prices of their tangible items can not reflect any significantly added value put on by any intangible addition. What a nightmare for eBay to enforce since many items listed every day are priced subjectively by the sellers in many categories such as art, antiques, jewelry, vintage items and collectibles. The market determines the price and people will pay the price or they won’t. Again this seems like only sellers of certain occult natured items are being singled out for selective enforcement if the Facebook statement is true.
EBay has not disallowed Feng Shui items or ‘New Age’ items like Crystals used in healing and crystal work, both of which have ‘intangible’ properties that are believed in by MANY millions and millions around the world and add to their value in the eyes of many. You have not banned rosaries, crucifixes or religious medals, all of which have perceived ‘intangible’ abilities and energies associated with them. You have not banned items like Aromatherapy products which people use to gain certain ‘intangible’ benefits from. Magnetic therapy jewelry. Radionic devices and the entire category of natural and homeopathic remedies are items that people must subjectively get ‘intangible’ and unverifiable benefits from. The list of items with ‘intangible’ benefits goes on and on. I ask HOW are these any different than spells, blessings, magic and energy work placed upon items? How do these items differ in dealing with any Resolution Center disputes?
I am saddened and deeply concerned that eBay’s new policy may appear to some as a form of religious or ideological discrimination against occult and esoteric metaphysical beliefs. Something that I’m sure eBay does not want to imply.
Various Pagan, Neo-pagan, Alternative and Wiccan beliefs are ages old and actually a rapidly growing segment of our world population. Not everyone subscribes to the ‘Big Three’ religions, four if you include Buddhism.
in fact according to religioustolerance.org:
“A second important statistic is the rate of growth of the Wiccan community. “In May, 1998, the Chicago Tribune reported that, though difficult to quantify due to lack of formal organization, neo-paganism is the fastest-growing religion in North America with the Internet being the prime means of proselytizing.” 1 Ms. Curott estimates a doubling in size every 18 months. This growth rate seems quite high, but appears to have some credibility in the Wiccan community. The ARIS survey of the American adult population indicates a growth in the Wiccan community of 17 fold between 1990 and 2001 – the highest of any faith group monitored. This would indicate a doubling in numbers of adherents about ever 30 months. 2 Maria Alupoaicei, who co-authored the book “Generation Hex” claims that “The numbers of [Wiccan] adherents are doubling every 30 months.” We suspect that she derived her estimate from this essay. She notes that there are over 700,000 websites for Wiccans on the Internet.
If the latter growth rate is accurate and if it continues, then Wicca would be the third largest religious group in the U.S. by about 2012, behind Christianity and Judaism, and ahead of Islam.”
If this is all a misunderstanding, I apologize but there have been many mixed messages coming from eBay Customer Service reps who tell sellers who call in that not only are readings of all types and direct cast spells(non mailed item) being prohibited, but that ANY item, TANGIBLE ITEM, that mentions a spell or magic anywhere in the title or listing is now prohibited. Sellers are told that the use of certain WORDS are banned and listings will be scanned for these certain keywords like magic, prayer, blessing, psychic, spell, haunted, etc… I can only imagine what a nightmare this will become if that is true, with listings being pulled just for using a certain keyword picked up by a computer bot.
I ask that eBay consider carefully how targeting certain beliefs and practices may look to the world as a whole-a world where millions of people hold alternative and differing cultural beliefs. I think sometimes certain corporate departments can be short sighted in making changes whose widespread ramifications are not well thought out.
I am only ONE of HUNDREDS if not THOUSANDS of persons, both buyers and sellers of items in the Metaphysical Categories that are asking these same questions now.
Sincerely,
A concerned eBay member and believer in equality for all.
I think it’s a smart move.
As a Practicing & Public Witch / Daughter of The Goddess – I don’t feel this is discrimination.
But in the link you have provided the Everything Else category includes
Metaphysical: Psychic, Paranormal > Readings
Metaphysical: Psychic, Paranormal > Spells, Potions
Metaphysical: Tarot Readings
Advertising Opportunities
Memberships
With No updates taking place in September
I dont see a problem with it as long as it doesnt effect ritual tools and as long as it crosses all religions.
I used to offer hour long distant Reiki healing sessions on Ebay. I’d arrange a date/time for the session to be carried out so the person could lay back & enjoy the experience, email them 10 minutes before I started so they knew it was about to commence, then after the distant treatment I would email them on anything I picked up on during it. I offered a no quibbles money back guaruntee & offered free general weekly distant healing to everyone who asked also. The whole process would take around 2 hours & in the end I stopped offering these services because it was simply taking up too much of my time as general life got in the way. It’s a bit of a shame I wouldn’t have the option to do it again but in general I understand the reasons why. To be honest, I personaly would not purchase anything intangable on eBay, (yes, even distant healing sessions lol) as there is no way to know who is trustworthy and who is not. Maybe ebay could have just changed the rules, so any sales of this nature would always offer a no questions asked, money back guaruntee for any unsatisfied customer. That is what I offered & not one person ever asked for their money back.
The most basic definition of religion is an outward sign of inward faith so how can your religion and your magical practice be separate? I’m truly curious of the answer, I’m not just trying to be a hater.
My outward sign of my inward faith is show in deeds, not in props. I show my faith in volunteer work, in teaching and mentoring, in sharing what I know, in being kind, in standing up for my faith when it’s needed.
I don’t need a prop to speak with my god/desses. I don’t need a spell or a potion to honor them.
I know people who are Pagan who practice *no* sort of magic what-so-ever, just as I know people of no faith and of other faiths who practice magic.
My magical practice is not based on deity, though it might include deity, depending on my need. I can do magic without ever invoking a deity. They can certainly be complimentary to each other, but they do not, in my personal practice, automatically go hand-in-hand.
I have watched things go from bad to worse on Etsy over the years. It is mostly due to the youth of the administration and the inability to stop the ‘shoot first, ask questions later’ on everything to do with the site. Anyway, spells and potions are just as much of a religious items as are prayers and Eucharist. All religions have their props! I don’t see a ban on crosses, yet! LOL The slippery slope right now on Etsy is the making of medical curative claims, which is something which affects the folks who sell herbs, tinctures, cosmetics etc. This is an FDA thing. ‘Services’ are supposedly banned on Etsy (and always have been, btw), but they aren’t on ArtFire! So, even though I have an astrology section in my shop, I will probably be moving all of those offering to my ArtFire studio. And, I make sure to keep my metaphysical gemstone meanings on the bland side when I include them in my jewelry descriptions. It is all about your choice of words. But, when and if Etsy bans the practice of one religion and leaves others out, then it is class action suit time! In the meantime, just take your services to ArtFire! That site is the next big thing, and it is far more egalitarian.
Just an aside here… think in terms of SERVICE. Offering to curse someone or mix up a potion to do same is still a service, but does it really serve? We all have to take our intent as well as our business acumen to the highest place possible.
Peace.
I agree with Ebay taking this course of action, ss long as it goes across all religious fields. The sale of intangible items is nuts, and money should never be asked for to get them. But if they turn around and ban other items Wiccan( wands,amulets,clothing……,) then yes, I will be very upset. The same goes for Etsy. I used Ebay for a very short time, then my account got hacked. I closed my account with them , and I kept getting messages that my account was being used. I took action, and Ebay had to refund every last dime.
I agree charlatans are giving us a bad name and they do prey on “naive people” they should be removed from ebay on the other hand I bought my BoS and several articles on ebay the trick is to only buy from 100% good feedback and pay with paypal never had a problem with ebay been buying there since it open …also use amazon another good place to buy again watch who you by from…
I find it shocking that ebay has done something so idiotic. As far as I am concerned if someone wants to buy some silly crap that is obviously fake, then let the buyer beware. The ban extends to people selling legitimate sorcery services as well as healing sessions such as Reiki and of course Tarot readings.
It may not be religiously motivated but its certainly materialistcially motivated in the sence that it insinuates that something intangible is not of any value.
I do hope I can continue to sell my tarot art online. Got the creepies when I heard this. Like there’s an inquisition brewing. ~~ On the other hand, like you, if it’s only about stopping emotional manipulations I can dig it.
I think this is eBay’s attempt to ban what they see as hoaxes. Like you I dislike the scam artists and hoaxes because they give the rest of us a bad name …
As long as you can still sell physical things on eBay that’s cool … I’m not sure its the right place for healing sessions and tarot readings anyway? I’m not a witch, but I am a healer and an intuitive and I offer “prayer circles” for my readers via Facebook. I wouldn’t list any of that on eBay to begin with as I think there are better forums where people can get to know you before they click “buy”
I do think its kinda sad that eBay positioned this as banning “witchcraft” because that’s not what they are actually doing. They are banning hoaxes. Personally I’m not a witch, but I am a healer and a lot of my sessions might be classified under that label by “muggles” as some of my friends like to call them =)
Love your posts Kris!
I never realized how some Pagans/Witches/whatever were so closed minded and judgmental. Perhaps for some divination is not part of your practice, nor prayers or spellwork. It is for many of us. Often the things we asked to do require the purchase of “tangible items” to accomplish the request. That should just come out of my pocket because…? Punish all and you’re sure to get the charlatans; along with everyone else. Sounds like a witch hunt to me. Just so long as people can still buy fabulous looking blank book, or success oil, or outrageous ritual tools…its all ok? I use Paypal for my Tarot reading charges for my time (not for the reading). The seeker is the only one who can truly validate the information. So if I type out the reading results its ok – that’s tangible? I am saddened by the overall reaction to eBay’s action by my so-called contemporaries. Saddened, but not surprised.
How long before others follow as Etsy did? How long before the snake oils, blessed candles, enchanted necklaces are also added to the list of fraud? I hope the community will understand when I could care less since I do not make these items or boast anything special about them from the trinkets mass produced elsewhere. To be truly ‘fair’ and consummate hypocrites let eBay ban any and all associated with ‘Witchcraft’ or ‘Paganism’, ‘Christian’, all religious items of all kinds…then there is no possibility of fraud. Force everyone back to business websites, in person events, or barter for purchases. That’s where this is heading and apparently that’s ok per the majority of comments I read. So be it.
If ebay is going to ban one religious sect, they need to ban all religious sects. We still have freedom of religion in the Constitiution of the USA. This is a violation of that Constitiutional Rights.
So long as tangibles that involve actual craftsmanship like handmade wands, ritual tools, and that sort of thing, I really don’t see the big deal. When I worked for the World of Witches Museum, we did sell spells and spell kits, not for us to perform for someone but for someone to use themselves, but honestly, they never sold very well on ebay. Spells are easy enough to find for free online, so there was very little market for them. We also used it to sell phone readings. But most of the other items we sold would probably pass muster. There are plenty of other services for potions and charms so I am not worried.
This has been a part of our lives and culture for a decade, and now? Someone has decided for e-bay that this is not going to be part of sales, services and communication? That seems like Restraint of Trade…and maybe a free speech issue as well as discrimination!
Interesting discussion. I’ve had the same experience with Ebay; being ripped off, it’s not fun. Still, if they’re banning “prayers and blessings” also, it doesn’t sound very discriminatory.
I think it’s a great thing! In my opinion anyone claiming to do all the work for you is full of it and would know better if they actually knew how magic worked. Tools are one thing. Spells to make your butt bigger or to force the guy that thinks you are a psycho stalker, and rightly so if you’re buying this spell, to love you are bullshit and send us all back 20 years.
Thomas Jefferson authored a law which, in part, banned Witchcraft – but it did not address the Craft as a religion, but rather as a consumer affairs problem preying upon the gullible ( http://press-pubs.uchicago.edu/founders/documents/amendVIIIs10.html). I think this is where eBay is coming from as well.
I am an eBayer. They are not banning the sell of pagan books or items. In fact, I am “watching” candles, a pagan necklace, and one of Cunningham’s books right now. What they are banning are pagan “services” such as readings and spells. But as long as their ban also includes “christian services” such as prayers then I am okay with their decision. I wouldn’t trust an eBay card reading any way.
eBay needs to get rid of intangible items, but getting rid of all spells, reading and magic is NOT getting rid of intangible items, it’s about discriminating one religious right and is very wrong. Intangible items are items that are not 100% described or is fake. But for most reading and psychic or spells, they are 100% described. What you see is what you get and you get what you pay for so those are NOT intangible items and there’s no reason for eBay to ban them all.
It is understandable they want to remove the charlatans but it appears this is a case of baby tossed out with the bathwater. I despise the exploitative nature of the ads that they are banning, surely there is a way to sort the weed from the chaff. Perhaps a herb and tincture dealer would still be able to sell, but what about new tarot card decks or ritual supplies or supplies for “cooking” potions? I dont use ebay but as any wiser person should know, caveat emptor.
Definitely not discrimination..
It’s not discrimination. Its Ebay clamping down on quacks who use peoples desperate desires to make money and rob people. There are a number of great pagan shops on Ebay (its where I have always gotten all of my pagan supplies) and I’ve never had a problem. You can still by besoms and pagan item son ebay. I am slightly concerned about the banning of potions though. That shouldn’t be llowed, its a material item.