2020-05-11T10:10:02-04:00

Mother's day (640)

*****

The Ideal Mother

Many’s the guy who’s wished for a wife
Who measured up as the perfect “other”.
Yet how rare a thing to experience in life:
A soulmate who’s also the ideal mother.

I watch my children learn week after week
And marvel at your attentive loving care.
Teaching, instructing, patient, and meek
Your time and love always willing to share.

How blessed our children, with a mom like you
I couldn’t be more proud; nor one bit fonder.
Raising four Christian disciples, God’s will to do.
So that when grown, they’ll not falter or wander.

So I thank you, dear Judy, my love and my life
For all that you do: heart and soul of our home.
Sacrificial service without demand or strife,
The “Lord’s work,” lest children stray or roam.

I thank God every day to have found such joy:
A lovely time and place all six of us can share.
Seeing spiritual growth of a girl and three boys
And feeling great happiness, because you’re there.

Written on Mother’s Day: 11 May 2008, 11:42 PM

*****

Related Reading

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34th Anniversary Greetings Back and Forth [Facebook, 10-6-18]

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(originally posted on 5-11-08)

Photo credit: Mother’s Day 2015. Left to right: yours truly, Anna Loftus, son Michael (they were married on 5-21-16), Judy’s mother Joan Kozora, wife Judy, and daughter Angelina (sons Matthew and Paul not in the picture) [family photo]

***

 

2017-03-24T14:12:26-04:00

. . . Persecuted by English Royalty, Anglicans, & Cromwellians: 1565-1713

CelticCross12
High Cross at the Rock of Cashel (County Tipperary). Photograph by Jon Sullivan (15 June 2002)
[released into public domain / Wikimedia Commons]
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(2-27-08)

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 [names not linked are found on the Irish Confessors and Martyrs page, from The Catholic Encyclopedia]
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[ adding the 269 Irish martyrs during the reign of Butcher Henry VIII, we arrive at a grand total of 713 documented Irish martyrs and confessors ]

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Total of all documented martyrs and heroic confessors for the Catholic faith, persecuted by English “head of the Church” royalty and its minions, in four papers of mine:

1375

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For much more information along these lines, see my index page: Protestantism: Historic Persecution and Intolerance
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Conacius Macuarta (Conn McCourt) Franciscan. Flogged to death in Armagh, 16 December 1565, for refusing to acknowledge the queen’s supremacy.

Roger MacCongaill (McConnell)

Franciscan. Flogged to death in Armagh, 16 December, 1565, for refusing to acknowledge the queen’s supremacy.

Edmund Fitzsimon

Franciscan. Hanged on 21 January, 1575 in Downpatrick.

John Lochran

Franciscan. Hanged on 21 January, 1575 in Downpatrick.

Donagh O’Rorke

Franciscan. Hanged on 21 January, 1575 in Downpatrick.

Edmund MacDonnell (or, O’Donnell)

Jesuit priest. Died on 16 March 1575 in Cork.

Fergall Ward

Franciscan guardian, Armagh — hanged, 28 April 1575, with his own girdle.

William Walsh

Born c. 1512. Bishop of Meath (Cistercian). When Queen Elizabeth introduced a Protestant liturgy into Ireland, Walsh resisted strenuously in Convocatio, and preached at Trim against the Book of Common Prayer. On 4 Feb., 1560, he refused the oath of supremacy, was deprived of his temporalities, and by the Queen’s order committed to custody and was later committed to Dublin Castle in July 1565, in a dark and filthy cell. At Christmas, 1572, his friends contrived his escape to Nantes in Brittany. After six months of destitution he was aided by the nuncio in France to proceed to Spain. He reached Alcalá almost moribund through privations, fatigues. Afterwards he removed to the Cistercian convent and died on 4 January 1577, among his former brethren, esteemed a martyr to the Faith.

Thomas Courcy

Vicar-general at Kinsale. Hanged on 30 March 1577.

David Hurley

Dean of Emly — died in prison in 1578.

Thomas Moeran

Dean of Cork — taken in the exercise of his functions and executed in 1578.

John O’Dowd

Franciscan priest. Refused to reveal a confession, put to death at Elphin by having his skull compressed with a twisted cord, in 1579.

Thomas O’Herlahy

Bishop of Ross. Consecrated about 1560, he was one of three Irish bishops attending the Council of Trent. He incurred such persecution through enforcing its decrees that he fled with his chaplain to a little island, but was betrayed to Perrot, President of Munster, who sent him in chains to the Tower of London. Simultaneously with Primate Creagh, he was confined until released after about three years and seven months on the security of Cormac MacCarthy, Lord of Muskery. Intending to retire to Belgium, ill health contracted in prison induced him to return to Ireland. He was apprehended at Dublin, but released on exhibiting his discharge, and proceeded to Muskery under MacCarthy’s protection. Disliking the lavishness of that nobleman’s house, he withdrew to a small farm and lived in great austerity. Relieving distress to the utmost of his power he made a visitation of his diocese yearly, and on great festivals officiated and preached in a neighbouring church. Thus, though afflicted with dropsy, he lived until his sixtieth (or seventieth) year, dying exhausted by labours and sufferings, in 1579.

Thaddæus Daly and Companion

Franciscans. Hanged, drawn, and quartered at Limerick, 1 January 1579. The bystanders reported that his head when cut off distinctly uttered the words: “Lord, show me Thy ways.”

Edmund Tanner

Born c. 1526. Bishop of Cork and Cloyne, Ireland, 1574-1579. In May, 1575, he set out for Ireland with exceptional faculties for his own diocese and for those of Cashel, Dublin, and its suffragan sees in the absence of their respective prelates. Not long after his reaching Ireland he was captured while exercising his functions at Clonmel, and was thrown into prison; here, as Holing tells, he was visited by a schismatical bishop whom he reconciled to the Church. A few days later he was himself released through the influence of a noble earl. Thereafter he did not venture into his own diocese but as commissary-Apostolic he traversed the other districts assigned him, administering the sacraments and discharging in secret the other duties of his office. Four years he laboured thus in continual peril and distress, and at length succumbed to his privations and fatigues in the Diocese of Ossory, 4 June, 1579. Bruodin states that he died in Dublin Castle after eighteen months of imprisonment and cruel torture.

Blessed Patrick O’Healey (or, O’Healy, or Pádraig Ó Héilí)

Born c. 1545. Bishop of Mayo (Franciscan). Denied the royal supremacy, replying that he could not barter his faith for life or honours; his business was to do a bishop’s part in advancing religion and saving souls. To questions about the plans of the pope and the King of Spain for invading Ireland he made no answer, and thereupon was delivered to torture. As he still remained silent, he was sent to instant execution by martial law. The execution by hanging took place outside one of the gates of Kilmallock, on 22 August 1579.

Blessed Cornelius (Or, Conn) O’Rourke

Franciscan priest. Tortured and hanged in Kilmallock, on 22 August 1579.

Prior at the Cistercian monastery of Graeg

Killed in 1580.

Daniel O’Neilan (or, O’Duillian)

Franciscan priest. Fastened round the waist with a rope and thrown with weights tied to his feet from one of town-gates at Youghal, finally fastened to a mill-wheel and torn to pieces, 28 March 1580.

Daniel Hanrichan
Maurice O’Scanlan
Philip O’Shee (O’Lee)

Franciscan priests. Beaten with sticks and slain, 6 April 1580, before the altar of Lislachtin monastery, Co. Kerry.

Laurence O’Moore

Priest. Tortured and hanged, 11 November 1580, after the surrender of Dun-an-oir in Kerry.

Oliver Plunkett

Gentleman. Tortured and hanged, 11 November 1580, after the surrender of Dun-an-oir in Kerry.

William Walsh (or Willick)

Englishman. Tortured and hanged, 11 November 1580, after the surrender of Dun-an-oir in Kerry.

John Clinch
John Eustace
Thomas Eustace
Robert Fitzgerald
Walter Lakin (or, Layrmus)

Matthew Lamport
Thomas Netherfield (or, Netterville)
Nicholas Nugent (Chief Justice)
David Sutton
Robert Sherlock
John Sutton
William Wogan

Executed on a charge of complicity in rebellion with Lord Baltinglass, in 1581.

Richard French

Priest, Ferns Diocese. Died in prison in 1581.

Blessed Patrick Cavanaugh (or, Cavanagh, or, Pádraigh Caomhánach)
Blessed Edward Cheevers
Blessed Robert Meyler (or, Tyler)
Blessed Matthew Lambert
John O’Lahy
Anonymous Sailor

Matthew Lambert was a Wexford baker who had arranged with five sailor acquaintances to provide safe passage by ship out of Wexford for Viscount Baltinglass and his Jesuit chaplain Robert Rochford when English troops were pursuing them after the fall of the Second Desmond Rebellion (1579-83). The authorities heard of the plan beforehand and Matthew was arrested together with his five sailor friends. Thrown into prison, they were questioned about politics and religion. Lambert’s reply was: “I am not a learned man. I am unable to debate with you, but I can tell you this, ‘I am a Catholic and I believe whatever our Holy Mother the Catholic Church believes.’” They were found guilty of treason and hanged, drawn, and quartered in Wexford on 5 July 1581.

Nicholas Fitzgerald

Cistercian. Hanged, drawn, and quartered, September 1581 at Dublin.

Maurice Eustace

He secretly took Holy Orders. His servant, who was aware of the fact, told his father, who had his son immediately arrested and imprisoned in Dublin and put on trial for high treason. During his imprisonment Adam Loftus, Protestant Archbishop of Dublin, offered him his daughter in marriage, and a large dowry if he would accept the reformed religion. Yielding neither to the bribery nor persecution, Eustace was sentenced to public execution, and hanged, in November 1581.

Henry O’Fremlamhaidh (anglicized Frawley)

Died in 1582.

Thaddæus O’Meran (or O’Morachue)

Franciscan. Guardian of Enniscorthy. Died in 1582.

John Wallis

Priest. Died, 20 January 1582, in prison at Worcester.

Cahill McGoran
Peter McQuillan
Roger O’Donnellan
Patrick O’Kenna
James Pillan

Franciscan priests. Died on or near 13 February 1582, Dublin Castle.

Roger McHenlea (or, O’Hanlon)

Franciscan lay brother. Died on or near 13 February 1582, Dublin Castle.

Henry Delahoyde
Phelim O’Hara (or, O’Corra)

Franciscans of Moyne, Co. Mayo. Hanged and quartered, 1 May 1582.

Æneas Penny

Parish priest of Killatra (Killasser, Co. Mayo). Slain by soldiers while saying Mass, 4 May 1582.

Donagh O’Reddy

Parish priest of Coleraine. Hanged and transfixed with swords, 12 June 1582, at the altar of his church.

Blessed Margaret Birmingham Ball

Born in 1515. When she was fifteen years old Margaret married Alderman Bartholomew Ball of Ballrothery. Margaret had ten children. Her husband was elected Mayor of Dublin in 1553, making Margaret the Mayoress. She had a comfortable life with a large household and many servants, and she was recognised for organising classes for the children of local Irish families in her own home.

Margaret’s eldest son, Walter Ball, embraced the “new religion” and was appointed Commissioner for Ecclesiastical Causes in 1577. Margaret was disappointed with her son’s change of faith and tried to change his mind. On one occasion, she told him that she had a “special friend” for him to meet. Walter arrived early with a company of soldiers, and found that the “special friend” was Dermot O’Hurley, Archbishop of Cashel. He was celebrating Mass with the family. Walter had his mother arrested and locked in the dungeons of Dublin Castle.

When the family protested, Walter declared that his mother should have been executed, but he had spared her. She would be allowed to go free if she “Took the Oath”, which probably referred to the Oath of Supremacy. Her second son, Nicholas, who supported her, was elected Mayor of Dublin in 1582. However, Walter was still Commissioner for Ecclesiastical Causes, which was a crown appointment. He outranked Nicholas and kept him from securing the release of their mother. Nicholas visited her daily, bringing her food, clothing, and candles.

Margaret died in 1584 at the age of sixty-nine, which was an advanced age at the time. She was crippled with arthritis and had lived for three years in the cold, wet dungeon of Dublin Castle with no natural light. Margaret had lived in the dungeon when she could have returned to a life of comfort at any time by simply “taking the oath.” Although she could have altered her will, she still bequeathed her property to Walter upon her death.

John O’Daly

Franciscan priest. Trampled to death by cavalry in 1584.

Blessed Dermond (or, Dermot) O’Hurley

Born c. 1530. Archbishop of Cashel. He was committed to Dublin Castle in October, 1583 and tortured. Early in March, 1584, the archbishop’s legs were thrust into boots filled with oil and salt, beneath which a fire was kindled. Some groans of agony were wrung from the victim, and he cried aloud, “Jesus, son of David, have mercy on me!,” but rejected every proposal to abandon his religion. Ultimately he swooned away, and fearing his death, the torturers removed him; as the boots were pulled off, the flesh was stripped from his bones. In this condition he was returned to prison. Queen Elizabeth approved of the torture, and execution by martial law. He was secretly taken out at dawn, and hanged with a withe on the gibbet near St. Stephen’s Green, Dublin, on 20 June, 1584. He spoke to the crowds before he was killed:

Be it therefore known unto you . . . that I am a priest anointed and also a Bishop, although unworthy of so sacred dignities, and no cause could they find against me that might in the least deserve the pains of death, but merely for my function of priesthood wherein they have proceeded against me in all points cruelly contrary to their own laws . . . and I do enjoin you (dear Christian brethren) to manifest the same to the world and also to bear witness on the Day of Judgment of my Innocent death, which I endure for my function and profession of the most holy Catholic Faith.

Thaddæus Clancy

Died on 15 September 1584, near Listowel.

Gelasius (or, Glaisne) O’Cullenan

Cistercian Abbot of Boyle. Tortured and hanged on 21 November 1584 at Dublin.

Eugene Cronius (or Hugh or John Mulcheran, or Eoghan O’Maoilchiarain)

Either Abbot of Trinity Island, Co. Roscommon, or a secular priest. Tortured and hanged on, 21 November 1584, at Dublin.

Blessed Maurice Kenraghty(or, McKenraghty)

Priest. In September, 1583, he was handed over to the Earl of Ormond. By Ormond’s command he was chained to one Patrick Grant, and sent to prison at Clonmel. Here he lay in irons, exhorting, instructing, and hearing confessions at his prison grate until April, 1585. His jailer was then bribed by Victor White, a leading townsman, to release the priest for one night to say Mass and administer the Paschal Communion in White’s house. The jailer secretly warned the President of Munster to take this opportunity to capture most of the neighbouring recusants (those refusing to take the Oath of Supremacy) at Mass. In the morning an armed force surrounded the house, arrested White and others, seized the sacred vessels, and looked for the priest everywhere. He had hidden under straw at the first alarm, and, though wounded when the heap was probed, ultimately escaped to the woods. Learning, however, that White’s life could only be saved by his (Kenraghty’s) surrender, he gave himself up, and was at once tried by martial law. Pardon and preferment were offered him if he agreed to conform, but he resolutely maintained the Catholic faith and the pope’s authority, and was hanged as a traitor at Clonmel on 20 April 1585. His head was set up in the market-place.

Patrick O’Connor, Cistercian
Malachy O’Kelly
, Cistercian

Hanged and quartered, 19 May 1585, at Boyle.

Maurice (or Murtagh) O’Brien

Bishop of Emly. Died in prison at Dublin in 1586.

Donagh O’Murheely (or, O’Murthuile, wrongly identified with O’Hurley) and Companion

Franciscans. Stoned and tortured to death at Muckross, Killarney in 1586.

John Cornelius

Franciscan of Askeaton. Died in 1587.

Walter Farrell

Franciscan of Askeaton. Hanged with his own girdle in 1587.

Peter (or Patrick) Meyler

Native of Wexford, executed at Galway in 1588.

Patrick O’Brady, Franciscan Prior at Monaghan, and Six Friars

Killed in 1588 by soldiers.

Dermot O’Mulrony (Franciscan priest)
Brother Thomas (Franciscan)
Franciscan of Galbally, Co. Limerick

Put to death in Limerick on 21 March 1588.

Thaddæus O’Boyle

Guardian of Donegal, slain there, 13 April 1588, by soldiers.

Patrick Plunkett

Knight. Hanged and quartered, 6 May 1588, Dublin.

Peter Miller

Diocese of Ferns. Tortured, hanged, and quartered, 4 October, 1588.

Geoffrey Farrell
John O’Molloy
Cornelius O’Dogherty

Franciscan priests. Hanged, drawn, and quartered, 15 December 1588, at Abbeyleix.

Christopher Roche

Layman. ied on 13 December 1590, under torture, Newgate, London.

Matthew O’Leyn

Franciscan priest. Died on 6 March 1590, at Kilcrea.

Terence Magennis
Magnus O’Fredliney (or O’Todhry)
Loughlin og Mac O’Cadha (or, Mac Eochadha, Keogh)

Franciscans of Multifarnham. Died in prison in 1591.

Andrew Strich

Priest, Limerick. Died in Dublin Castle in 1594.

John Stephens

Priest, Dublin province. Hanged and quartered, 4 September 1597, for saying Mass.

George Power

Vicar-General of Ossory. Died in prison in 1599.

John Walsh

Vicar-General of Dublin. Died in prison at Chester in 1600.

Nicholas Young

Priest, died in Dublin Castle in 1600.

James Dudall (or, Dowdall)

He was a merchant of Drogheda, Ireland. In the summer of 1598, when returning from France, his ship was driven by stress of weather onto the coast of Devonshire, and he was arrested by William Bourchier, Earl of Bath, who had him under examination. Dowdall publicly avowed that he rejected the queen’s supremacy, and only recognized that of the Roman pontiff. The earl forwarded the examination to Sir Robert Cecil, and had Dowdall committed to Exeter jail. Whilst in prison he was tortured and put to the rack, but continued unchanged in his fidelity to the ancient faith. He was hanged, drawn, and quartered at Exeter, England, 20 September, 1600.

Patrick Hayes (or, O’Hea)

Shipowner of Wexford and layman, charged with aiding bishops, priests, and others. Died in prison on 4 December 1600 (possibly after at least twenty years of incarceration).

Donagh O’Cronin

Clerk. Hanged and disembowelled in Cork, in 1601.

Bernard Moriarty

Dean of Ardagh and Vicar-General of Dublin. Having his thighs broken by soldiers, died in prison, Dublin, in 1601.

Redmond O’Gallagher

Bishop of Derry. Slain by soldiers, 15 March 1601, near Dungiven.

Daniel (or, Donagh) O’Mollony

Vicar-General of Killaloe. Died of torture, 24 April 1601, Dublin Castle.

John O’Kelly

Priest. Died on 15 May 1601, in prison.

Two priests and seven novices of Limerick and Kilmallock, assembled in 1602 with forty Benedictine, Cistercian, and other monks, at Scattery Island in the Shannon to be deported under safe conduct in a man-of-war, were cast overboard at sea.

Blessed Dominic Collins

Born in 1566. Ordained as a Jesuit in 1589. After the Battle of Kinsale he retreated with O’Sullivan Beare to Dunboy Castle in west Cork, where after a siege he was captured, bribed to change his religion and tortured. No effort was spared in the attempt to break Dominic’s resolution. We are told that he was savagely tortured, though the form of torture is not mentioned. He was promised rich rewards and high ecclesiastical office if he would accept the doctrines of Anglicanism. Ministers of religion were sent to persuade him of the error of his beliefs. Even some of his own family visited him, urging him to save his life by pretending a conversion which he could afterwards repudiate. He was in his middle thirties with much to live for. But he rejected all the offers, and chose a martyr’s death.

Taken to his hometown of Youghal on 31st October 1602, he was marched by a troop of soldiers through the streets to the place of execution. It was the first time he had seen his home town in fifteen years. He wore the black gown of his order, which he had desired so long and loved so greatly. He knelt at the foot of the gallows and greeted it joyfully: “Hail, holy cross, so long desired by me!” Then he addressed the crowd in a mixture of Spanish, Irish and English, telling them that he had come to Ireland to defend the faith of the Holy Roman Church, which was the one true path to salvation and for which he was about to die. He was so cheerful that an English officer remarked, “He is going to his death as eagerly as I would go to a banquet”. Dominic overheard him and replied, “For this cause I would be willing to die not once but a thousand deaths”.

His words and demeanour so touched the crowd that the hangman refused to do his work. The soldiers eventually seized on a passer-by, a poor fisherman, and forced him to accept the office. He asked the victim for forgiveness, which Dominic gladly granted before mounting the ladder with the rope around his neck. Reciting a psalm, he had just reached the words “Into your hands I commend my spirit”, when the fisherman pulled away the ladder; and so he died. In his life and in his death he remains one of the most attractive and lovable of all the Irish martyrs.

The following Dominicans suffered under Elizabeth (1558-1603), but the dates are uncertain:

Father MacFerge, prior of Coleraine
24 friars of Coleraine,
32 members of the community of Derry, slain there the same night.

Eugene O’Gallagher

Abbot of the Cistercians of Assaroe, Ballyshannon — slain there by soldiers in 1606.

Bernard O’Trevir

Prior of the Cistercians of Assaroe, Ballyshannon — slain there by soldiers in 1606.

Bernard O’Carolan

Priest. Executed by martial law, Good Friday, 1606.

Sir John Burke

From Brittas, County Limerick. Rescued and defended with arms a priest seized by soldiers, and so was executed at Limerick, 20 December 1606.

Dermot Bruodin

Franciscan. Tortured at Limerick and died as a result in 1607.

Francis Helam (or, Helan)

Franciscan priest. Apprehended saying Mass in Drogheda, and died in prison in 1607.

Patrick O’Derry

Franciscan, priest. Hanged, drawn, and quartered at Lifford in 1607.

John O’Luin

Dominican. Hanged at Derry in 1607.

Niall O’Boyle

Franciscan. Beheaded or hanged, 15 January 1607, Co. Tyrone.

Donagh (or, William) O’Luin

Dominican prior of Derry. Hanged and quartered there in 1608.

John Lune

Priest, Ferns Diocese. Hanged and quartered, 12 November 1610, Dublin.

Blessed Cornelius (or, Conor) O’Devany (or, Conchobhar O’Duibheannaigh)

Born c. 1532. Franciscan Bishop of Down and Connor. In 1588 he was committed to Dublin Castle. Failing to convict him of any crime punishable with death, Lord Deputy Fitzwilliam sought authority from Burghley to “be rid of such an obstinate enemy of God and so rank a traitor to her Majesty as no doubt he is”. He lay in prison until November, 1590, being then released ostensibly on his own petition but doubtless through policy. He was protected by O’Neill until 1607, and escaped arrest until the middle of 1611, when, almost eighty years old, he was taken while administering confirmation and again committed to Dublin Castle. On 28 January, 1612, he was tried for high treason, found guilty by the majority of a packed jury, and sentenced to die.

He was drawn on a cart from the Castle to the gallows beyond the river on 1 February 1612, in Dublin; the whole route was crowded with Catholics lamenting and begging his blessing. Protestant clergymen pestered him with ministrations and urged him to confess he died for treason. “Pray let me be”, he answered, “the viceroy’s messenger to me here present, could tell that I might have life and revenue for going once to that temple”, pointing to a tower opposite.

On reaching the top step of the scaffold the bishop prayed aloud for all who were present. He prayed for the Catholics of Dublin and of Ireland, urging them to persevere in their faith. He prayed for all heretics and for their reunion with the Church and he forgave his persecutors. He kissed the hangman’s rope, placed it around his neck, drew the veil over his face and held out his hands to be tied.
It was at this moment that an event occurred which was recorded by almost all the sources and evidently was remembered by all the witnesses. The sky had been dark and overcast all that day. Now as the sun was setting the clouds parted and the scaffold was bathed in the red glow of the setting sun. While the bishop hung on the gallows the clouds closed over again. After the bishop had been hanged the executioner cut off his head and held it up with the customary cry: ‘Look on the head of a traitor’.

Blessed Patrick O’Lochran (or, Loughran, or, Pádraig Ó Lochráin)

Born c. 1577. Priest, Cork Diocese. Hanged, drawn, and quartered, on 1 February 1612, Dublin.

William McGillacunny (MacGiolla Coinigh)

Dominican. Executed at Coleraine in 1614.

Michael Fitzsimon, layman
Conn O’Kiennan

Hanged, drawn, and quartered in 1615.

Lewis O’Laverty

Priest, hanged, drawn, and quartered, 1615.

Thomas Fitzgerald

Franciscan priest. Died in prison, 12 July 1617, Dublin.

John MacConnan (or, John Oonan, or Conan)

Priest, executed by martial law, Dublin, 1618.

John Honan

Franciscan priest. Tortured, hanged, and quartered, 14 October 1618, Dublin.

Blessed Francis Taylor

Born c. 1550 in Swords, County Dublin, he was elected Dublin’s mayor in 1595. Later he was imprisoned for his Catholic faith, and died in the Castle on 29 January 1621, after seven years of refusing to accept his freedom by giving up his religion.

James Eustace

Cistercian. Hanged and quartered, 6 September 1621.

Edmund Dungan

Bishop of Down and Connor — died, 2 November 1628, Dublin Castle.

Paul (or, Patrick) Fleming

Franciscan, priest. Put to death by Protestants, 13 November 1631, at Benesabe, Bohemia.

Matthew Hore

Put to death by Protestants, 13 November 1631, at Benesabe, Bohemia.

Arthur MacGeoghegan

Dominican priest. Hanged, drawn, and quartered, 27 November 1633, Tyburn.

John Meagh

Jesuit priest. Shot, 31 May 1639, by the Swedish army near Guttenberg, Bohemia.

Philip Clery

Priest. Died in 1642.

Cormac Egan

Dominican lay brother. Died in 1642.

Raymund Keogh

Dominican priest. Shot while hearing confessions on the battlefield, in 1642.

Francis O’Mahony

Franciscan. Guardian at Cork — tortured and hanged, regaining consciousness, he was again hanged with his girdle, in 1642.

Stephen Petit

Dominican prior at Mullingar — shot while hearing confessions on the battlefield, in 1642.

John Clancy Edmund Hore

Priests, Waterford Diocese — put to death, March 1642, at Dungarvan.

Blessed Peter O’Higgin (or, Higgins)

Born 1600. Ordained as a Dominican before 1627. During the Rebellion of 1641 when the Irish Ulstermen came south of the Boyne, the Catholic Lords of the Pale opted to join them while the Governor of Dublin, Sir Charles Coote, opted for a policy of “exterminate all Catholics”. Law and order collapsed and plunder became a daily occurrence. Both Protestant landowners and even Catholics known to be government supporters were looted by the rebels.

Peter Higgins as Prior of Naas made efforts to restrain the violent and sheltered the homeless. He intervened to save the Protestant rector of Donadea, William Pillsworth, who was about to be put to the gallows by Catholics and upbraided the Catholics for their unchristian behaviour. In January 1642 the Earl of Ormond mobilised a Protestant force in Dublin to strike back at Catholics. Among those taken into custody was Peter Higgins, who in fact did not resist arrest, knowing he had done so much to save and protect Protestants and that he was innocent of any crime. Ormond tried to intervene on Higgins’s behalf presenting petitions from at least twenty Protestants who had known Higgins urging that the priest’s life be spared. But Ormond was amazed when on the morning of 23rd March 1642 he heard that Higgins’s body was hanging from a gallows in Dublin; Sir Charles Coote had executed him without trial. At the gallows Higgins was offered a chance to deny his faith, but declined saying: “I die a Catholic and a Dominican priest. I forgive from my heart all who have conspired to bring about my death. Deo gratias.” Among the crowd stood William Pillsworth, rector of Donadea. He cried out: “This man is innocent, this man is innocent. He saved my life.” His words fell on deaf ears. The soldiers hacked his body to pieces so that it could not be given an honourable burial.

Angelus of St. Joseph

O.D.C. Hanged, 4 May 1642, Newry.

Robert (or, Malachy) O’Shiel

Cistercian priest. Hanged, 4 May 1642, Newry.

Thomas Aquinas of Jesus

Priest, O.D.C., hanged, 6 July 1642, Drogheda.

Cornelius O’Brien

Hanged on board ship in the Shannon, by parliamentarians, October 1642.

Fergal Ward

Franciscan. Hanged on board ship in the Shannon, by parliamentarians, October 1642.

Peter of the Mother of God

Lay brother, O.D.C. Died in 1643.

Christopher Ultan (or, Donlevy)

Franciscan priest. Died in Newgate prison, London, 1644.

Cornelius O’Connor Eugene O’Daly
O.SS.T. — drowned at sea by a Parliamentarian commander, 11 January 1644.

John Flaverty

Dominican priest. Died in 1645.

Hugh MacMahon, layman, and Conor Maguire, Baron of Enniskillen — executed for complicity in the outbreak of the Confederate War, 1645.

Thaddæus O’Connell

Priest, O.S.A. — executed by Parliamentarians after the battle of Sligo in 1645.

Henry White

Priest — hanged at Rathconnell, Co. Meath, 1645.

Edmund Mulligan

Cistercian priest. Slain in July 1645, near Clones, by Parliamentarians.

Malachy O’Queely (Maolsheachlainn O Cadhla)

Archbishop of Tuam; executed at Ballipodare, 27 October, 1645.

At the storming of the Rock of Cashel by Inchiquin, 15 September 1647, Richard Barry, priest, O.P., William Boyton, priest, S.J., Richard Butler, priest, O.S.F., James Saul, lay brother, O.S.F., Elizabeth Carney, Sister Margaret, a Dominican tertiary, Theobald Stapleton, priest, Edward Stapleton, priest, Thomas Morrissey and many others, priests and women, were slain in the church.

Gerald FitzGibbon, cleric, and David Fox, lay brother at Kilmallock, Dominic O’Neaghten, lay brother, Roscommon, Peter Costello, priest, sub-prior, Straid, Co. Mayo, all Dominicans; Andrew Hickey, priest, O.S.F. — hanged near Adare in 1648.

Dominic Dillon, Dominican prior at Urlar
Bernard Horumley (or, Gormley), Franciscan priest
Richard Oveton, Dominican prior at Athy
Peter Taaffe, O.S.A., prior at Drogheda
John Vath, Jesuit priest
Thomas Vath, secular priest

Slain in Drogheda massacre, 1649.

Didacus Cheevers, lay Franciscan
John Esmond, priest
Joseph Rochford, lay Franciscan
Peter Stafford, priest
Raymund Stafford, priest
Paul Synnott, priest

Slain in Wexford massacre, 1649.

William Lynch

Dominican priest. Hanged in 1649.

James O’Reilly

Dominican priest. Slain near Clonmel in 1649.

Robert Netterville

Jesuit priest. Died at Drogheda, 19 June 1649, of a severe beating with sticks.

Hilary Conroy

Franciscan, priest. Hanged at Gowran in 1650 by the Cromwellians.

Walter de Wallis

Franciscan priest. Hanged at Mullingar in 1650.

John Dormer

Franciscan. Died in prison, Dublin, 1650.

Boetius Egan

Franciscan Bishop of Ross, celebrated for exhorting the garrison of Carrigadrehid Castle to maintain their post against Broghill — dismembered and hanged in 1650.

Francis Fitzgerald

Franciscan priest. Hanged, Cork, 1650.

Miler Magrath (Father Michael of the Rosary)

Dominican priest. Hanged at Clonmel in 1650.

Antony Musæus (or, Hussey)

Franciscan priest. Hanged at Mullingar in 1650.

Thomas Plunkett, Eugene O’Teman, and Twelve Other Franciscans.

Flogged and cut to pieces by soldiers in 1650.

Nicholas Ugan (or, Ulagan)

Franciscan. Hanged with his girdle, 1650.

Dominicans: John Wolfe, priest, hanged, Limerick; John O’Cuilin (Collins), priest, beheaded; William O’Connor, prior at Clonmel, beheaded, and Thomas O’Higgin, priest, hanged, Clonmel; Bernard O’Ferrall, priest, slain, his brother Laurence O’Ferrall, priest, hanged, Longford; Vincent Gerald Dillon, chaplain to Irish troops in England, died in prison, York; Ambrose Æneas O’Cahill, priest, cut to pieces by cavalry, Cork; Donagh Dubh (Black) and James Moran, lay brothers; all in 1651.

Franciscans: Denis O’Neilan, priest, hanged, Inchicronan, Co. Clare; Thaddæus O’Carrighy, priest, hanged near Ennis; Hugh McKeon, priest, died in prison, Athlone; Roger de Mara (MacNamara), priest, shot and hanged, Clare Castle; Daniel Clanchy and Jeremiah O’Nerehiny (Nerny), lay brothers, Quin, hanged; Philip Flasberry, hanged near Dublin; Francis Sullivan, priest, shot in a cave, Co. Kerry, December; William Hickey, priest, hanged; all in 1651.

Laymen: Louis O’Farrall, died in prison, Athlone; Charles O’Dowd, hanged; Donagh O’Brien, burned alive; Sir Patrick Purcell, Sir Geoffrey Galway, Thomas Strich, mayor, Dominic Fanning, ex-mayor, Daniel O’Higgin, hanged after surrender of Limerick; Henry O’Neill, Theobald de Burgo; all in 1651.

Blessed Terence Albert O’Brien

Born in 1600 or 1601. Dominican Bishop of Emly. During the Irish Confederate Wars, like most Irish Catholics, he sided with Confederate Ireland. The bishop would treat the wounded and support Confederate soldiers throughout the conflict. O’Brien would sign the declaration against Inchiquin’s truce in 1648, and the declaration against Ormond in 1650. In 1651 Limerick was invaded and O’Brien urged a resistance that infuriated the Ormondists and Parliamentarians. Following surrender he was denied quarter and protection. Major General Purcell, Father Wolf and O’Brien were brought before a court martial and ordered for execution by General Henry Ireton; carried out on 31 October 1651. As he went to the gallows, he spoke to the people: “Do not weep for me, but pray that being firm and unbroken in this torment of death, I may happily finish my course.” After his death by strangulation his body was left hanging for three hours and treated with indignity by the soldiers. They cut off his head and spiked it on the river gate where it remained fresh and incorrupt.

Bernard Fitzpatrick

Ossory Diocese. Died in 1652.

Hugh Garrighy
Roger Ormilius (or, Gormley)

Secular priests. Hanged, Co. Clare, 1652.

Cornelius MacCarthy

Died in Co. Kerry in 1652.

Anthony Broder, deacon
Sliabh Luachra
Eugene O’Cahan, guardian at Ennis
Bonaventure de Burgo
Nielan Locheran, priest

Franciscans hanged in 1652 (first three near Tuam; last two at Derry).

Edmund O’Bern, Dominican priest
Anthony O’Ferrall, priest, Tulsk
John O’Ferrall;

Beheaded after torture, Jamestown, 1652.

Edmund Butler, Dublin
Brigid D’Arcy
Bernard McBriody
Thaddæus O’Connor Sligo, Boyle
John O’Conor Kerry, Tralee
Thaddæus O’Conor of Bealnamelly in Connaught
Conn O’Rorke

Laymen hanged in 1652.

Dominicans: Thaddæus Moriarty, prior at Tralee, hanged, Killarney; Bernard O’Kelly, priest or lay brother, Galway; David Roche, priest, sold into slavery, St. Kitts; Honoria Burke and her maid, Honoria Magan, tertiaries, Burrishoole; Daniel Delany, P.P., Arklow, hanged, Gorey; all in 1653.

Blessed John Kearney

Born 1619. Ordained a priest in 1642 after his studies in Louvain, he was captured on his return to Ireland, but managed to escape. He ministered as a priest first in Cashel and later in Waterford. In 1653 he was captured again, taken to Clonmel and charged with functioning as a priest in defiance of the law. Witnesses testified that he had celebrated and administered the sacraments. He was hanged on 11th March 1653.

Augustinians: Donagh O’Kennedy, Donagh Serenan, Fulgentius Jordan, Raymund O’Malley, John Tullis, and Thomas Deir, at Cork; all in 1654.

Bernard Conney, O.S.F., died in Galway jail
Mary Roche, Viscountess Fermoy, Cork

Died in 1654.

Blessed William Tirry

Born 1608. Augustinian priest. He returned to Ireland in 1641, and in 1649 was chosen as Prior (local superior) of the Augustinian house in Skreen. This was the same year that marked the beginning of the Cromwellian conquest of Ireland. A law was enacted on January 6, 1653 declaring that any Roman Catholic priest in Ireland was guilty of treason. Tirry was forced into hiding alongside other priests, but was captured when three men reported his whereabouts for money. William was imprisoned at Clonmel and refused to adopt the Protestant religion. He was executed by hanging on May 12, 1654. An account told by a friar who had been tried with William supplies some details of the day: “William, wearing his Augustinian habit, was led to the gallows praying the rosary. He blessed the crowd which had gathered, pardoned his betrayers and affirmed his faith. It was a moving moment for Catholics and Protestants alike.” Many miracles were reported after this death.

Luke Bergin, Cistercian
James Murchu
Daniel O’Brien, dean of Ferns

Hanged on 14 April 1655.

Raymund O’Moore

Dominican priest. Died in 1665 in Dublin.

Felix O’Conor

Dominican priest. Died in 1679 in Sligo.

Gerald Fitzgibbon

Dominican priest. Died in 1691 in Listowel.

Patrick Russell

Born 1629. Archbishop of Dublin. After harrassment and arrest following the defeat of the Jacobite army at the Boyne, died in a filthy underground prison in Dublin in 1692.

John O’Murrough

Dominican priest. Died in 1695 in Cork.

Donchus O’Falvey (or, Daniel Falvey)

Priest or friar, at Kerry in 1703.

Clement O’Colgan

Dominican priest. Died in 1704 in Derry.

Daniel McDonnell

Dominican priest. Died in 1707 in Galway.

Felix McDowell

Dominican priest. Died in 1707 in Dublin.

James O’Hegarty

Priest, Died in the Derry Diocese around 1711.

Dominic McEgan

Dominican priest. Died in 1713 in Dublin.

Uncertain Dates

Forty Cistercians of Monasternenagh, Co. Limerick
Dominicans: John O’Loughlin, and Two Others, at Kilmallock.
Franciscans: James Chevers, James Roche, John Mocleus (or, Mockler), Daniel O’Boyle
Thomas Fleming, layman
Dermot MacCarrha (MacCarthy), priest
John O’Grady, priest
Daniel O’Hanan, layman, died in prison.


Further Irish Martyr and Confessor Resources

Irish Catholic Martyrs (Wikipedia)

The Irish Martyrs (CatholicIreland.Net)

Chapters towards a History of Ireland in the Reign of Elizabeth (book by Philip O’Sullivan Beare)

The Martyrs of Ireland (four DVDs from Bob and Penny Lord)

Irish Martyrs (New Catholic Dictionary: long listing of names)

Lives of the Irish Martyrs and Confessors (book by Myles O’Reilly)

2017-03-25T15:32:06-04:00

MikeAnna0715-1 - (640)
 My son Michael and his fiancee Anna (July 2015). To be married in May 2016.
* * *

(12-8-06)

 * * * * *

This topic always generates all sorts of controversy; never fails. This took place in a thread at Debunking Christianity. I was foolish enough to think I could get somewhere with sociological data, in dealing with sex and societal trends regarding same. It seems not. But you never know. Some seed of doubt may have been planted in one or two readers. If so, my frustration and weariness with the continual misrepresentation of traditional Christian views on sexuality will have been worth it .

The atheists’ words will be in the following colors:

John W. Loftus: orange
Martin Wagner: blue
Daniel: brown
trinity: green
Bruce: purple

Christians feel guilty about their sexual fantasies, and are afraid to bring them up to their spouses, so their sex life goes dull after about seven years of being married.

Is that so? Wow, I never knew that. I’ve been very happily married 22 years and to my knowledge sex is still pretty fun and passionate for now three times your predictions, and still going strong.

And it’s not just me. Many studies have shown that strongly Christian couples are among the most sexually happy marriages: a lot more than those of the swingers and advocates of free sex and so forth. It’s a known fact that promiscuity before marriage tends to adversely affect monogamous relationships, because one is always fantasizing about the others and comparing them, etc.

God designed sex for one couple, married for life. That is what works best, and there is much secular sociological data to support this.

Likewise, all the things Christians believe in (stable marriages, two-parent families [i.e., male and female!], no divorce, mother staying at home if at all possible, etc.) are now known to be far healthier for children (studies on the adverse effect of day care are now coming out).

* * *


As for this “secular sociological data” which you don’t cite, I can cite the Barna Research study that showed divorce rates for conservative Christians were higher than those of other faith groups, as well as atheists and agnostics.

Yeah, I know. I’ve written about that myself: even in my last published book.

But you have to control for seriousness of religious fervor. When you do that, and you look at couples who, e.g., pray together, do devotions or Bible studies together; go to church every week, etc. the divorce rates go down to 5% or 10%. That’s a very significant statistic indeed.

Without trying to refute your correlation, just pointing out something important: people who do any activity very regularly show the hallmark(s) of devotion and discipline. It could be thought, and I am not aware if such studies are done, that the same correlation may also hold between X and low divorce rate, where X = exercising together regularly, eating at least 4x a week together, setting aside “date nights”, being Buddhist and doing yoga together, being Hindu and praying to Shiva, being atheists and attending a UU church…etc.

I think this is an important consideration in evaluating the likelihood of divorce by criteria that demonstrate the ability of the couple to maintain discipline in their routine and a degree of devotion to each other.

Just a thought.

I agree that many factors could contribute to happy marriages. Common interests are obviously one (whatever they are). When I said regular prayer and Bible study and so forth, I meant that more in the sense of “indication of strong religious commitment” rather than “shared activity” (though it is that too).

As a general observation I would point out that Christian moral teaching fits in perfectly with how we feel ourselves to be; our needs and wants.

Most of us feel that one partner is best for us. That’s Christian teaching.

No one thinks divorce is a good thing. That’s Christian teaching.

Adultery seriously injures the wronged party. Christian teaching says to not do it, as one of the most serious sins.

Try to talk to your wife or husband about numerous sexual conquests or escapades before you met; see how well that goes over. Christian teaching opposes fornication and restricts sex to marriage.

You men: go suggest to your wife that swinging or wife-swapping might be fun. See how well that goes over. Women want you to be devoted to THEM, and them only, and for this to last forever. Christianity opposes that; but “open marriage” says otherwise. who says that marriage is to death? You know who. Everyone wants that, ideally, yet when we come along and try to make it binding, so it can have every chance of succeeding, everyone thinks it’s legalism and unreality. No; it is exactly reality, to make binding what everyone claims they want and want to try to achieve.

I was watching a special on the Beatles’ wives, and it said that George had a crush on Ringos’s wife Maureen and suggested one night that they swap wives. Everyone was shocked, and this documentary said that contributed to the downfall of Ringo’s marriage (Maureen died of leukemia at age 47, by the way).

Everyone knows that George’s wife Patti was the cutest by far of all the Beatles wives. :-) :-)

And likewise, John told his wife Cynthia in 1968 that he had slept with about 300 women. That went over great. Why is that? why is it that premarital or extramarital sex is glorified by our culture, yet if someone tries to DO it they often get in big trouble with their spouse? Christianity is the belief-system that says that we should stick to one person (of the opposite sex: a whole other discussion). It’s almost self-evident that this works out best. Everyone knows it.

People may choose divorce if their marriage is a failure, but no one wants this, and no one sets out in a serious relationship with separation as a serious option. Almost all of us have that yearning to find one person and make it work forever (as a million love songs are about).

So Christianity simply says what we already know (part of a larger argument I’ve been having with DagoodS: that Christian morals build upon natural law and morals, and what every human being knows within himself).

I could go on and on with this, but you catch my drift . . .

* * *

And certainly if you controlled for premarital sex, that would be highly significant, too (there is no doubt in my mind). In other words, for those who truly believe and consistently live out Christian morality (for the most part: as we all fail now and then), there will be an impact on marriage as in all other parts of life.

Those who don’t do that shouldn’t surprise us if they fall prey to all the prevailing societal trends. Christians are famous for that. But it makes no sense to critique Christianity for failures that occur precisely because folks aren’t following the very Christian teaching that would make a difference if it was faithfully followed.

Baby – bathwater . . . .

* * *

What exactly is this “Christian morality” of which you speak,

Traditional Christian values: that the secular world is so furiously against these days.

and is there any reason to suspect that it’s any more conducive to marital bliss than a non-religious ethical system based on reason and humanism?

I don’t know. I was simply responding to John’s claim that Christian morality made scarcely any difference and that sex in Christian marriages fizzles after seven years (dunno where he got that). I was repeating the studies I have seen many times through the years that this isn’t the case; quite the contrary.

E.g., there is related research that shows how cohabitation before marriage is statistically more likely to coincide with later divorces than ton lower them (as the fallacious “try before you buy” sexual outlook would have us believe). I can’t help it that the studies back up traditional Christian morality. They show what they show, whatever any of us may think about the results.

* * *

In my baptist upbringing we was always told that sex is naughty, dirty, etc. Whenever people were kissing on TV, we’d have to cover our eyes. After being told that your whole life, you believe it. Then all of a sudden on your wedding night, something formerly so bad becomes something you are supposed to share with your life partner. That’s really messed up.

Yes it is. It’s asinine, stupid, and idiotic in the extreme. I was never taught these ridiculous things in the circles I moved in (which incorporate many parts of Christianity).

It’s not Christian or biblical teaching, which holds that sex is good and great, and was created by God for procreation and pleasure, but under certain limited conditions, due to the human propensity for selfishness and lust and destructive tendencies.

To merely limit something is not to equate it with wickedness. No one thinks hot dogs are wicked because everyone should limit how many they eat at a time. Conversely, no one argues that kissing is a good thing and so consequently sets out to kiss every female in a stadium of 40,000.

There are limits to every good thing. Sex is no exception. Human experience has shown that faithful monogamy works best. If you doubt this, then go cheat on your husband or wife and see how they feel about it. It’s instinctive; innate. We all feel this. Yet Christians get a bum rap because we teach that sensible limits to sexual expression are binding, and their violation sin.

But in any event, the real Christian teaching on sex is not what these clowns you grew up with teach. Every belief system (including atheism) has its fringe elements and corrupters, too.

* * *

Of course there are all sorts of reason for happy (and bad) marriages. I’ve always been an advocate of multiple causation for most things. I was responding to John’s running-down of the Christian marriage ethic, as if it makes no difference. I didn’t claim that no one besides Christians could possibly have a happy marriage.

* * *

Sacred implies that it is some sort of gift from God, overriding the biological basis for our sex lives. It is also used to coerce women (and men as well,

Yeah, right. Okay, try this with your wife (if you’re married): tell her that you think sex has no higher ontological meaning or mystical essence of uniting people and making them feel an indescribable oneness (let alone sacredness). Rather, it is simply a biological need and she serves as a convenient biological conduit to fulfill your need to have nerve endings feel wonderful and to give you physical pleasure.

That’s all it means. It has no meaning beyond that. See how well that goes over.

Now I happen to think that if these feelings are so strong and well-nigh universal, that there truly is some basis for them besides mere coincidence or supposed social conditioning.

We’ve had now 40 years of the sexual revolution and 200-300 years of increasing secularization of western civilization, but I see no sign of human nature changing, or acceptance of promiscuity and so forth. Women still feel exactly the same as they always have. Men, too, are just as hurt by adultery as they always were.

Promiscuity and sexual conquest may be glorified in male locker rooms or basketball courts or when women are acting ridiculous and going to see the Foxy Frenchmen or a Brad Pitt movie or something, but at ground level it is still as ugly and as dreaded as ever.

Christianity is trying to spare people tremendous pain by enforcing the rules of common sense morality. You would think that people could figure out just from reason and experience that there is something to this: that Christians and other “traditional” religions were onto something profound and right, and have some wisdom to give to humanity. But the sexual drive and secular societal conditioning is far too strong for many people to get over. So they go and make the same mistakes. And they mock Christian values because, in my opinion, they know down deep that they are right, but find them difficult to live by.

That’s why G. K. Chesterton famously said: “Christianity has not been tried and found wanting; it has been found difficult and left untried.”

* * *

But the act of having sex outside of marriage is not in itself immoral, does not make one impure, does not damage any future marriage(s) . . .

Ah, but it does do damage; this is what you don’t understand. Setting traditional Christian sexual morality aside for a moment (it’s not required for my argument here to succeed), there are known consequences to lots of premarital sex and cohabitation. It tends to lead to (strictly based on scientifically-controlled polling) less stable marriages, more sexual dissatisfaction and a higher likelihood of divorce.

This is almost my entire present point. The mounting sociological, psychological, societal, and experiential evidence is great testimony that traditional sexual morality works best: even for those aspects that all you sexual libertines [by this I did not mean to imply all atheists: only those who recognized themselves in the description] pride yourself on for being so superior to us fuddy-dud, killjoy, puritanical Christians: like longterm enjoyment of sex.

Disagree with him on any part of his recipe for marital perfection, and you’re a “sexual libertine”.

Is there any reason we shouldn’t categorically dismiss you as an idiot from here on out?

Christian morality: lived out consistently, with understanding and dependence on God for the grace to carry it out, works. It works because it is true (not the opposite, or mere pragmatism). If you want a happy marriage, be very selective, keep your pants on till marriage, find a mate who feels the same way, be sure you are temperamentally compatible (and as many other ways as possible), and that is the recipe for success.

In other words, “Be perfect! Like Dave!”

Okay Dave, find me one of these studies you’re not citing which shows that no marriage in history in which both partners remained virginal until their wedding day has ever ended in divorce, and that no marriage in history in which at least one partner had at least one premarital sexual experience has ever not ended in divorce, and maybe we’ll take your bizarre notions about human relationships seriously. Until then, you just sound like a weirdo with some major sexual hangups to us. But then, we’re all libertines, so that figures, eh?

Of course it has to be consistently lived. One could do all that and later, someone falls into lust or irresponsibility or substance abuse, or someone has a serious mental breakdown, and then factors other than Christian influence are introduced and everything can change. But the traditional morality by itself can only be a positive force for lasting, fulfilling relationships.

* * *

So explain why Christians get divorced more. You’re avoiding this like a kid who doesn’t want to brush his teeth.

Hardly; I already answered it; one has to control for the variable of how vigorous and serious the commitment to Christianity is: then the divorce rates go WAY down.

These ideas are hardly unique to Christianity, Dave.

Didn’t say they were, so this is neither here nor there.

Try to talk to your wife or husband about numerous sexual conquests or escapades before you met; see how well that goes over.

Clearly no sensible person would, Dave. Most adults go into a monogamous relationship with the understanding that their new partner has a history, and has had previous partners. If you’re starting a new relationship with someone, why would you talk about past relationships? You clearly don’t have a good grasp of how people outside your little circle conduct relationships,

That had nothing to do with my line there, which was rhetorical and challenging to non-Christian sexual mores and ethics.

I was taking the question a step further: not dwelling on the obvious, as you want to do, making out that I am some backwoods naive simpleton. I was at least as sexually liberal in my past as many of you are. I’ve been around the block. I’ve lived and believed all that nonsense.

So what I’m doing is asking, “why is this a problem if in fact, promiscuity and lots of free sex is such a good, wonderful thing? Why is it that it can potentially become a problem in later marriages, and it is a no-no subject if it is so wonderful? Why is it that we all have that drive to be the lone loved one of our mates, yet at the same time liberal sexual morality does everything it can to undermine that goal, by promoting free, irresponsible sexuality?”

and like many religionists you have a skewed, black-or-white version of the world in which everyone exists at the end of one of two extremes. Here, you’re either a blissfully happy monogamously married sexual saint, or a wild and uncontrollable libertine into wife-swapping and sex with anything that moves. You don’t seem to have much experience with actual, you know, people.

Good grief. It just never ends, does it? It doesn’t matter what we Christians argue; how nuanced we present things; how many times we make clear that we don’t think all atheists are wicked and evil; you’ll still accuse of the same idiotic attitude.

Some Christians hold to this position, but they are in the minority, and I am not among them, as I repeat till I’m blue in the face around here. But you seem new, so it’s the same old nonsense: you meet a Christian and assume he is exactly like the fundamentalist wacko stereotype that does exist, but which is not representative at all of Christianity as a whole. I ain’t a fundamentalist; never have been. I was raised in a liberal Methodist home, became a secularist for ten years, then an evangelical Protestant, and then a Catholic. At no time was I anything like a “fundamentalist.”

You clearly don’t even understand my argument, because (typically of a certain kind of atheist) you casually assume that I am an idiot who lives in a naive Christian bubble. If you could get past all your stereotypes, I think you’d discover that we actually have a lot more in common than you imagine. I know it’s tough but I believe you can do it. You have it in you. You just need a little encouragement to do better.

And yet people who adhere to this belief system have less success with their marriages than people who don’t. Ahh, the cognitive dissonance. If Dave won’t address it, maybe it will go away.

I already did. In charity, I will assume that you simply didn’t read my post where I stated that.

Just keep telling stories about crazy promiscuous rock stars as if that proves a point. Also, keep trotting out false choices and either-or fallacies like this one: . . . Again, you seem to have little experience with how men and women actually interact sexually, outside of your own marriage that is.

That’s untrue, as already explained. But even if I lived in Antarctica and never saw a woman in my life, that wouldn’t change the fact of scientific polling data, which is what it is regardless of the past sexual history and understanding or lack thereof, of the person who presents it.

The more you keep cheerleading for the alleged moral superiority of your belief system the more it sounds like you’re doing so in an effort to hide from uncomfortable facts. I believe it’s called “whistling past the graveyard”, or in this case, “bedroom”.

Right. Why is it that I wrote in my most recent published book, The Catholic Verses (look it up on amazon): “[D]ivorce rates among Evangelical protestants are virtually as high as that of the general public” (p. 205)?

The only ignoring going on here is your butchery or confused noncomprehension of my argument.

Do you agree with the statement that all instances of divorce and remarriage constitute adultery?

Of course not. That’s why we Catholics have annulments to look into what the situation was, that may have been a serious mitigating circumstances.

Do you believe wives should always be submissive and accept an inferior role to that of their husbands?

The same Paul who taught that also taught (in the verse just before): “Be subject to one another out of reverence for Christ” (Eph 5:21-22), and three verses later that the husband should love his wife the way that “Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her.” Being willing to be crucified for someone else doesn’t exactly strike me as a totally dominant superior-slave relationship. It is not at all, rightly-understood. I’ve never forced my wife to do anything. We decide things jointly.

And do you agree with Paul that ultimately, sex is just a really really bad thing to do,

I don’t agree, because Paul never taught this. It’s a gross distortion; typical of atheist “exegesis.”

but people should marry anyway, only to avoid going to hell for fornication?

Lust is not the same thing as sex. Premarital sex is different from married sex. The same act can be good or bad depending on circumstances. You think not? Okay, then why is rape wrong? Why would incest be wrong, or sex with an eight-year-old. That’s all the same act, but it is wrong in one instance and right in others. We simply say sex outside of marriage is another time that sex is immoral.

I don’t see much “common sense” in that “morality”.

It would help considerably if you actually understood it in the first place, rather than lash out at it before you even know what the opposing view holds. It’s easy for me, on the other hand, to critique the usual secular view of sex, because I used to hold it myself. Nothing like firsthand experience to make one understand something.

2020-12-16T12:59:04-04:00

Reply to Atheist John W. Loftus’ Irrational Criticisms of the Biblical Accounts

Mary22

(2-3-11)

Atheist and former Christian John W. Loftus runs the Debunking Christianity website. I hung around there quite a bit a few years ago. Many attempted interactions with him and his positions can be found on my Atheism, Agnosticism, and Secularism web page.

In recent months I have been particularly interested in submitting refutations of claims that the Bible is internally contradictory. Loftus’ post, “Was Jesus Born in Bethlehem?” (originally 12-16-06 and charmingly re-posted on Christmas Eve, 2010) offers one such golden opportunity. His words will be in blue.

* * * * *

Consider the other problems inherent with the story:

Jesus was not born in Bethlehem, if Luke is taken literally, according to E. P. Sanders [The Historical Figure of Jesus (Penguin Press, 1993, pp. 84-91)].

Right. Let me see if I understand this correctly: the text in Luke (2:4, 15) states that He was born there, but somehow, if we take the account “literally,” He actually wasn’t, according to the Wise Men of our time. I wonder, then: if a text makes an assertion, but the very assertion supposedly proves the thing is false, then how do we know when something is true? The text has to deliberately not assert it; then we know it is true? That makes a lot of sense, doesn’t it? About as much sense as a hole in the head . . .

Loftus, following Sanders’ eisegetical methodology, arbitrarily charges interpolation or text alteration when he finds anything in the Bible difficult to reconcile with anything else. This is the game that Bible skeptics have been playing for two thousand years now. Hence, Sanders writes in his book (music to Loftus’ atheist ears):

The two gospels [Matthew and Luke] have completely different and irreconcilable ways of moving Jesus and his family from one place to the other . . . It is not possible for both these stories to be accurate. It is improbable that either is. . . .

People resort to such alterations of the text in order to save it: the text must be true, and if we revise it we can still claim that it is true. Revision, however, overthrows the principle.

(pp. 85-86; hardcover edition available at amazon)

This is classic “higher critical” mentality (going back in this case to famous “higher critics” David Strauss [in an 1839 work] and Ernest Renan [1863]): if there is any “problem” in interpreting the biblical text, then immediately we resort to cynical and ungrounded speculation about unsavory motivations of the writers and their desire to modify texts regardless of the actual facts of any given matter. This, of course, cannot be proved. It’s all sheer speculation. It all has to do with how one approaches the issue from the outset: with openness and at least attempted objectivity, or with hostility and a sort of paternalistic cynicism. Loftus openly admits in the combox (12-23-06) that his hostile presuppositions and premises determine virtually everything:

I state how I see things. That’s all I can do. For me it’s all about seeing things differently. It’s not about more and more knowledge. It’s about viewing what we know in a different light. . . . For me it’s not about more and more knowledge. It never has been. It’s about seeing the knowledge we already have in a different light. So I shed light on how I see things. That’s all I can do. You’ll either see it, or you won’t. . . . No one sees things differently in bits and pieces. It’s an all or nothing happening. But before you can see the whole, I must share how I see things on a wide variety of the bits and pieces. So just add this bit and piece to the other bits and pieces I’ve shared here (that make no sense to you whatsoever), but at some point, if I keep on doing this, and if it’ll happen at all, you will catch a glimpse of how I see the total set of things. I don’t know what you know, and you don’t know what I know. But how we view that which we know is the difference that makes all the difference.

It’s all in the interpretation and the premises one has, and these can suddenly change. As Loftus correctly puts it: “It’s an all or nothing happening.” I’ve been arguing this for years, myself, so it is gratifying to see an atheist so eloquently verify my critique (and theory) of how atheism somehow comes about in a Christian mind.

What husband would take a nine-month pregnant woman on such a trek from Nazareth at that time when only heads of households were obligated to register for a census when the census would’ve been stretched out over a period of weeks or even months?

Obviously, there must have been some necessity or compulsion for Mary to also be present. But that makes no sense to Loftus: he would rather impugn the character of the Gospel writers, by having them drum up an account with a nearly-due pregnant wife subject to grueling discomforts, that he, in his infinite atheist wisdom, can immediately figure out is implausible. Thus, recourse to desperate fictional accounts seems far more likely to Loftus than the first scenario.

Luke 2:3 refers to Joseph being “enrolled with Mary, his betrothed.” Perhaps the impending marriage was an additional factor requiring her to also be there. The New Bible Dictionary (1962 ed., “Census,” p. 203) observed:

It is . . . widely agreed . . . that it could have involved the return of each householder to his domicile of origin, as Lk. ii. 3 states.

But if he did, why did he not take better precautions for the birth? Why not take Mary to her relative Elizabeth’s home just a few miles away from Bethlehem for the birth of her baby?

Probably because the baby chose to arrive at the time He did, when they were going to register for the census! I guess Loftus isn’t familiar with the process of childbirth. I’ve witnessed all four of my children being born. One time we made an entire trip some 12 miles away to the hospital, only to be turned away, as it was too early. There is no need to be cynical about this aspect of the story. Babies are born when the “time is right,” and often we have no idea when that will be.

According to Luke’s own genealogy (3:23-38) David had lived 42 generations earlier. Why should everyone have had to register for a census in the town of one of his ancestors forty-two generations earlier? There would be millions of ancestors by that time, and the whole empire would have been uprooted. Why 42 generations and not 35, or 16? If it was just required of the lineage of King David to register for the census, what was Augustus thinking when he ordered it? He had a King, Herod. “Under no circumstances could the reason for Joseph’s journey be, as Luke says, that he was ‘of the house and lineage of David,’ because that was of no interest to the Romans in this context.” [Uta Ranke-Heinemann, Putting Away Childish Things, (p.10)].

Lineage and past history were very important to Jews. Being from the lineage of David was obviously a point of pride for a Jew. Distance in time was as irrelevant then as it is to Jews even now (even atheist Jews: I’ve talked to at least one), who celebrate Passover: commemorating an event that is now well over 3000 years ago. Hannukah celebrates an event that happened in approximately 165 B.C.: over 2000 years ago.

The time from David to Mary and Joseph was a mere 1000 or so years. I fail to see the validity of this lightweight objection. It was probably determined, anyway, by whatever the Roman law entailed: registration in ancestral lands. It may have been a matter of voluntary Jewish (or local Roman) custom, or a sort of combination of both things. Hence, the liberal Catholic scholar Raymond Brown suggested:

One cannot rule out the possibility that, since Romans often adapted their administration to local circumstances, a census conducted in Judea would respect the strong attachment of Jewish tribal and ancestral relationships.

(The Birth of the Messiah: New York: Doubleday, 549)

According to Jewish census customs (assuming for the sake of argument, that Roman Palestine took them into account), ancestral home was highly important, and both the husband and wife would travel: especially in this instance, since Mary was also of the lineage of David).

Conservapedia“Luke and the Census” offers similar plausible scenarios:

A final set of objections has nothing to do with the date of the census, or the translation of the passage in question, but instead aims to launch a flurry of speculative attacks at the details provided by Luke. Perhaps the most common is the objection that a census would not have required travel. Adding to the difficulty is a misunderstanding of Luke’s text, whereby it is believed that Saint Luke is describing a decree that required the taxed to return to their ancestral townships.

This formed the backbone of the set of criticisms leveled by E. P. Sanders, who stated that it would have been the practice for the census-takers, not the taxed, to travel. Moreover, he added that such a decree would require people to keep track of millions of ancestors; tens of thousands of descendants of David would all be arriving at Bethlehem, his birthplace, at the same time; and Herod, whose dynasty was unrelated to the Davidic line, would hardly have wished to call attention to royal ancestry that had a greater claim to legitimacy.

[Footnote 28: E. P. Sanders, The Historical Figure of Jesus, Penguin, 1993, p86; see also Bart Ehrman, A Brief Introduction to the New Testament, p 103.]

The simple fact is that Luke does not, in any place, state that the census required people to travel to the home of their ancestors. Instead, Luke says simply that “all went to their own towns”. When Luke mentions return to one’s ancestral town, he is speaking only of Joseph.

[Footnote 29: Mark D. Smith ‘Of Jesus and Quirinius’, in Catholic Biblical Quarterly, vol. 62, no. 2 (April 2000), p. 289.]

In other words, people were required to travel to their township, but only this. Joseph chose to journey to his ancestral town, and to be registered there, rather than to his town of residence.

Mark D. Smith gave two reasons why Joseph would have made such a choice. As historian S. L. Wallace and others observed, some censuses gave up to a 50% tax reduction if one registered in a metropolis.

[Footnote 30: S. L. Wallace, Taxation in Egypt from Augustus to Diocletian (Princeton University Studies in Papyrology 2; Princeton University Press, 1938); cf. N. Lewis, Life in Egypt Under Roman Rule (Oxford: Clarendon, 1983), p. 170; Derrett, Further Light on the Nativity of the Nativity p. 90-94.]

Because Bethlehem, Joseph’s ancestral home, was close to Jerusalem, he could qualify for the reduction.

[Footnote 31: Smith, ibid., p. 297]

This incidentally answers another objection; namely, why Joseph would have brought the very pregnant Mary along – he could have been motivated to register his firstborn son so that Jesus would qualify for the reduction when he came of age.

[Footnote 32: Smith, ibid., p. 297]

Census records from Egypt record an unusual number of houses listed as having no resident, and this may be evidence for the practice of registering in a metropolis (if one could make such a claim) rather than a town of residence.

[Footnote 33: Brook W. R. Pearson, ‘The Lukan Census, Revisited’, in Catholic Biblical Quarterly, vol. 1, no. 2 (April 1999), p. 276.]

The second reason given by Smith is that Joseph may have owned property in his ancestral home, Bethlehem, and thus would need to register there. This property could have been as simple as farmland or a threshing floor, and need not imply any sort of wealth on Joseph’s part.

[Footnote 34: Smith, ibid., 289-90]

Against this, it has been argued that Joseph and Mary would not have needed to stay in an “inn”, as Luke records, if they had property in Bethlehem. The obvious weakness of this argument is that the property need not have constituted a suitable dwelling place, or a structure at all.

Radically questioning the text and/or the historicity of what is recorded there (leading to the foregone conclusion of questioning Jesus’ birth in Bethlehem) is obviously, then, not the only explanation any thinking person can give. But Loftus presents it that way; precisely because his skeptical game has no concern whatever for Christian explanations of the “difficulties” that atheists and other Bible skeptics love (almost more than anything) to toss abouit and chuckle over.

Loftus himself inadvertently concurs with one theory presented above (Joseph owning something in Bethlehem):

The fact is, even if there was a worldwide Roman census that included Galilee at this specific time, there is evidence that Census takers taxed people based upon the land they owned, so they traveled to where people lived.

If in fact Joseph owned some land in Bethlehem, then that was a different location from his current residence. Therefore, rather than making a censor travel to two places for one person, it stands to reason that the person with multiple properties would travel to at least one of them, especially if property directly tied into the census, as explained above (just like today: I use a business expense of home deduction, which ties property into income tax).

According to Robin Lane Fox, “Luke’s story is historically impossible and internally incoherent.”

That’s sheer nonsense. There is no impossibility in it at all. That is an extraordinarily silly claim for anyone to make: to try to assert a negative proposition like that.

But he says, “Luke’s errors and contradictions are easily explained.

That presupposes that they are there in the first place (which skeptics always do, rather than make any serious attempt to explain ostensible “difficulties”).

Early Christian tradition did not remember, or perhaps ever know, exactly where and when Jesus had been born. People were much more interested in his death and consequences.” “After the crucifixion and the belief in the resurrection, people wondered all the more deeply about Jesus’ birthplace. Bethlehem, home of King David, was a natural choice for the new messiah. There was even a prophecy in support of the claim which the ‘little town’ has maintained so profitably to this day.” So, “a higher truth was served by an impossible fiction.” [The Unauthorized Version: Truth and Fiction in the Bible(Knopf, 1992), p. 31-32]. “Luke’s real source for the view that Jesus was born in Bethlehem was almost certainly the conviction that Jesus fulfilled a hope that someday a descendant of David would arise to save Israel,” because the Messiah was supposed to come from there (Micah 5:2). [E. P. Sanders, The Historical Figure of Jesus (p. 87.)].

How quaint and (un)imaginative. Note what has happened here. This is the very essence of irrational special pleading. The text came about because of wishful thinking and the desire of the writers to cynically, deceitfully align with Old Testament messianic prophecy. But how does one possibly prove such an outlandish accusation? There is no hard evidence (let alone indisputable, ironclad) for such a thing! Our choice is to believe that:

1) The NT writers believed Jesus was born in Bethlehem because in fact He was born there, and they had evidence to substantiate the fact.

2) The NT writers knew that Jesus was not born in Bethlehem because they had no evidence to substantiate the fact, but they “wrote it in” anyway because of the need for Jesus as Messiah to fulfill OT prophecy that named the town (Micah 5:2).

3) The NT writers mistakenly but sincerely believed Jesus was born in Bethlehem and reported this as fact, even though they had no hard proof of it.

Now, how would one go about proving the second or third scenarios? If in fact the NT writers were lying through their teeth and didn’t believe their own words, how in the world would one establish that? If indeed Jesus was born in Bethlehem, as a point of actual fact (thinking purely theoretically for a moment), and if indeed the NT writers knew He was born there, and reported it, then there would be no deception, and this would in fact be a fulfillment of OT prophecy (i.e., for the person who believes in faith that Jesus is the Messiah, based on many considerations).

It all comes down to what is deemed to be fact and non-factual or of dubious historicity (from the historiographical perspective). But we can’t simply pull skeptical ideas out of a hat and assert them as if there is good reason to state such scenarios of alleged deliberate lying.

I can just as well fault skeptics who argue in such a way (that I think is circular special pleading) because they don’t believe in prophecy in the first place. Loftus obviously does not and cannot, since there is no God to give the revelation that is prophecy. If the thing is impossible, then obviously an alleged “fulfillment” of it is a sham as well.

So (given that hostile premise) it is thought that the Gospel writers were simply playing games by naming Bethlehem because of Micah 5:2: wholly apart from real knowledge of the event. But all they had to do was ask Jesus about it, or His parents. They were there. They knew what happened. They can’t change or manufacture their own lineage, which is why they were in Bethlehem in the first place. Even Jesus can’t change the fact of who His earthly parents were, as a point of fact.

It gets rather silly. As an analogy, to illustrate the foolishness of such “argumentation,” take the famous case (for baseball fans) of Babe Ruth calling his home run in the 1932 World Series. The fact is that he hit a home run in that game, and eyewitnesses swear to the fact that he “called the shot.” Now, let’s go ahead 2000 years from now and imagine how a skeptic would “reason”. The choices are again as follows:

1) The sportswriters believed Babe Ruth called and then hit the home run because in fact he did do both, and they had eyewitness evidence to substantiate the fact.

2) The sportswriters knew that Babe Ruth didn’t call and then hit the home run because they knew it didn’t actually happen, but they “wrote it in” anyway because of the need to create the myth of Babe Ruth as the greatest baseball player ever: larger than life.

3) The sportswriters mistakenly but sincerely believed that Babe Ruth called and then hit the home run and reported this as fact, even though they had no hard proof of it.

Now, would someone 2000 years later be acting reasonably in believing #1? Yes. Could they reasonably take position #2? Yes, provided they produced some documented evidence for the assertion. They could also believe #3, but would need evidence for that, too. But the problem is that biblical critics don’t require (let alone use or produce) any hard evidence to start questioning anything in the Bible. With their mentality, they could simply deny that Babe Ruth called the home run. Or they could deny that he actually hit it. Why believe 50,000 spectators in the park and the box scores? They could all have been made up for the purpose of myth-making. If 500 eyewitnesses in the Bible can make up a Resurrection appearance, why can’t 50,000 make up a legend of Ruth predicting his homer?

So that is how they would reason, if they were subject to the irrationalism of Loftus and a pitiable multitude biblical skeptics who think, clone-like, just like him. But the fact remains that the home run was hit, and that (by most accounts) it was called. That is the fact. And Jesus’ birth in Bethlehem can just as easily and conceivably also be a fact. He had to be born somewhere. Why should the Bible lie about it? To fulfill prophecy, so we are told, but that reasoning is ultimately circular: merely assuming without argument or evidence what it needs to prove.

In many other places we read that the people of his time called him “Jesus of Nazareth” (Matthew 26:70-72; Mark 1:23-25; Mark 10:46-48; Luke 4:34; Luke 18:37; Luke 24:20; John 1:45; John 18:6-8; John 19:19; Acts 2:22; Acts 6:14; Acts 10:38; Acts 22:9; Acts 26:9), so scholars conclude it’s more likely that Jesus was born and raised in Nazareth. They think this because the NT writers quoted OT verses from Psalms and the prophets out of context to point to Jesus. The NT writers were intent on making Jesus’ birth, life, nature and mission to fit anything in the Old Testament that could be construed to speak of him, as proof he was who they claimed him to be.

This is delicious. I think it utterly backfires as an argument. Why and how it does is almost so obvious that one could miss it. We have just been told that it is intelligent to believe that the NT writers made up Jesus’ birth in Bethlehem because they were deliberately making it fulfill the prophecy of Micah 5:2, even though they knew it was untrue or didn’t know where Jesus was born. Hold that thought.

Now we are told that the title Jesus of Nazareth somehow suggests that Jesus was not born in Bethlehem because He was raised in Nazareth. That clearly doesn’t follow. My father lived in the Detroit area for over sixty years. But he was born in Canada: about sixteen miles over the border. One can easily be associated with a town without having been born there. So that in itself is a gratuitously false premise.

But the massive biblical use of Jesus of Nazareth actually works against Loftus’ argument, because if the writers of the New Testament “were intent on making Jesus’ birth, life, nature and mission to fit anything in the Old Testament that could be construed to speak of him,” why in the world would this title be featured, since the messianic prophecy about birth was about Bethlehem? The skeptic can’t have it both ways. If the writers were trying to lie and make out that Bethlehem was the place then why was it mentioned so few times, while Nazareth was mentioned many times? It makes no sense. The skeptical scenario doesn’t have the ring of truth.

The mention of Nazareth is taken at face value (so it is concluded that Jesus not only lived, but was born there), while the occurrences of “Bethlehem” are scorned simply because of the connection to Micah 5:2. Nazareth is not even mentioned in the Old Testament at all! So if they were trying to lie, this would be one of the last choices of location to use. Matthew 2:23 ties “Nazarene” to the prophets, but these prophecies were not in the Old Testament. They were either from an extrabiblical source or oral tradition. Therefore, if the goal was to find Old Testament references, “Nazareth” is an inscrutable choice, whereas Bethlehem was indisputably mentioned there and connected to the Messiah.

But any Christian today who uses the Bible to argue for their views without taking into consideration the context of the passages in question, would be laughed at even in their own academic circles!

Yes, and when atheists do this all day long and incessantly in their endless rants against the Bible, those of us who actually study and revere the Bible think very little of their efforts, too. But it’s very time-consuming to tediously show how they distort things. That’s why there are full-time apologists like myself, who can take the time to do the necessary work to show the fallacies and lay bare the cynical folly and irrationality of these efforts.

Matthew’s account of Jesus’ birth fares no better. Robin Lane Fox: “Bethlehem was not Jesus’ birthplace but was imported from Hebrew prophecies about the future Messiah; the Star had similar origins (Numbers 24:17). Matthew’s story is a construction from well-known messianic prophecies (Bethlehem; the Star), and the Wise Men (Magi) have been added as another legend.” “Where the truth had been lost, stories filled the gap, and the desire to know fabricated its own tradition.”

More circular reasoning and unsubstantiated nonsense, as explained above.

There are even discrepancies between the Gospels themselves:

Luke told a tale of angels and shepherds, bringing some of the humblest people in society to Bethlehem with news of Jesus’ future. Instead of shepherds, Matthew brought Wise Men, following a star in the East and bringing gifts…In one version, there are simple shepherds, the other, learned Wise Men: the contrast sets our imaginations free, and perhaps like the Wise Men we too should return by ‘another way.” [The Unauthorized Version: Truth and Fiction in the Bible (Knopf, 1992), pp.35- 36].

How is this a “discrepancy”? One mentions one thing; the other mentions another. Neither says they were the only people there. So what? But the wise men actually came two years later, according to most Bible-believing scholarship (based on the evidence of Matthew 2:16), so it is talking about two different occasions anyway: all the more reason to deny the absurd charge of contradiction.

Luke has Joseph and Mary living in Nazareth from where they traveled to Bethlehem for the Roman census (Luke 1:26; 2:4). After Jesus was born, Joseph took his family from Bethlehem to Jerusalem for up to 40 days (Luke 2:22), and from there straight back to Nazareth (Luke 2:39). But Matthew says Jesus was born in a “house” where Joseph’s family lived in Bethlehem. And after the birth of Jesus they lived there for up to two years (Matt 2:16)! After the Magi leave them, Joseph is warned in a dream to flee to Egypt and stay there until Herod died (Matt. 2:15). After Herod died, Joseph was told in a dream to return to the land of Israel, and he headed for his home in Bethlehem of Judea. But since he was afraid to go there, he settled in Nazareth (Matt. 2:21-23), for the first time!

The fabulous Protestant apologist Glenn Miller, who specializes in debunking all of these endlessly alleged “Bible difficulties” took on these charges in his post, “Contradictions in the Infancy stories?” He observed:

First, let’s look at the statement of [atheist Christopher] Hitchens that Luke and Matthew “flatly contradict one another on the Flight to Egypt”. Now, to verify this claim it is necessary first to take the two statements by each author and look at them side by side. Then, we can look into more detail about the two statements to see if they are in fact ‘contradictory without a doubt’. [cites Matthew passage] . . .

Compare that with Luke’s statement about the Flight to Egypt:–oops, there is no statement by Luke on the Flight to Egypt. In fact, he doesn’t mention it one way or the other. He doesn’t support the historicity of the Flight, nor does he disparage it.

OK, that was easy. There cannot be statements that ‘flatly contradict’ (note the ‘-dict’ part of the word… means ‘something SAID’) one another on subject X if there is only one statement about X!

But we all know what the atheist-fellow means: the accounts flatly contradict one another if you make the silence in Luke (about the Magi/Flight) mean more than silence, and if you insert the word ‘immediately’ into the silence in Matthew about WHEN the warning to Joseph came… If ‘silence about event X’ means ‘denial of event X’ or ‘immediately’ (smile), then maybe they are correct. But this is a BIG, BIG step—from silence to denial (especially in historical accounts!)—and even if it is true, it is certainly not obvious, explicit, or a case of ‘flatly contradicting’. Silence can mean many things other than ‘denial’ (e.g., lack of interest, irrelevance to the argument–even ignorance of the fact itself is not ‘denial’!). To read ‘immediacy’ into a silence is just as bad.

But you should all see by now what I mean, tooin the absence of EXPLICIT contradiction, one has to interpret the text in such a way as to CREATE a contradiction. There is no contradiction in what the text ‘presents’–at a surface level–but one has to re-create the historical scene “behind” the text, in such a way as to GENERATE a contradiction. In other words, we take textual statements and ‘visualize’ or ‘re-create in our minds’, if you will, the historical sequence BEHIND those texts. Our author has taken the gospel narratives and ‘re-created’ the historical scene as one in which the sequences are out-of-synch. But the text itself does not make that explicit at all, and the same textual data can be used to ‘re-create’ in-synch sequences as well (at least two plausible ones, as we will note toward the end of this discussion).

[all emphases and capitals and coloring his own]

Miller summarizes the two accounts and draws conclusions from them (I added a few words — in brackets –, where he used abbreviations):

Note a couple of things from Luke:

Joseph and Mary are from Nazareth

(No mention of pregnancy-crisis)

They travel to Bethlehem

Jesus is born in Bethlehem

Shepherds visit Jesus in Bethlehem

Joseph/Mary/Jesus make a trip to Jerusalem for various Jewish rituals

(No mention of Magi/Flight)

Sometime after the various rituals, they return to their own city of Nazareth.

When we compare this list with Matthew, here’s what we see:

Joseph and Mary are introduced without reference to [Bethlehem] or [Nazareth].

Pregnancy-crisis.

Jesus is born in Bethlehem

(No mention of Shepherds)

(No mention of family trip to Jerusalem for obligatory Jewish rituals)

Visit of Magi

Flight to Egypt

Family settles in Nazareth

But notice that Luke does NOT indicate a short trip from Nazareth to Jerusalem (for ritual purposes) at all. Neither [Matthew] nor [Luke] have such a trip in their respective narrative, so the blog-visitor’s statement (at least the ‘specifically’ part) is inaccurate.

But also notice that both authors are only reporting some of the events—they share the key elements (i.e., Jesus born in royal city of Bethlehem, Jesus ends up in a despised town of Nazareth), and they each select a subset of the history for their particular point (e.g., Luke has the ritual-trip to emphasize the law-biding character of the family and the acceptance of Jesus by godly Jews; Matthew has the Flight/Secret-Return story to emphasize the early rejection of—or indifference to– Jesus by the Jewish leadership)

With the various omissions of each, it is hard to really construct ‘overlapping periods’ in which to situate anything but the barest of events. The centerpiece birth in Bethlehem anchors everything, and the story ‘ends’ at [Nazareth] in both. Thus, it would take more explicit textual data to make this into a problem…

What emerges from this first-glance look at the objections, is that much is being made from the omissions and silences in the text. To be sure, one COULD CHOOSE to interpret these silences/omissions in such a way as to construe these problems, but how would one defend such choices? Developing arguments from silence is notoriously dangerous, and rarely is certain enough to carry the conclusion single-handedly! . . .

Biographical writing is notoriously selective—hence the assumption of ‘full account’ will be wrong almost all the time (especially in antiquity). And whereas the birth-in-Bethlehem and the homesteading-in-Nazareth would fit the ‘so central… automatically included’ criteria, it would be not be obvious that ANY of the other details would be so central (e.g., the pregnancy-crisis, visits by Magi, flight to Egypt, slaughter of innocents, visits of shepherds, etc could easily be considered subservient to each author’s narrative purpose).

The article continues on in extreme detail, for anyone who is interested in delving into this textual issue in the utmost depth: examined in this case by someone who believes in biblical inspiration and the integrity of the biblical text — which is also a bias and premise, but far more acceptable in doing biblical interpretation than the constant hostility of the atheist or other kind of biblical skeptics.

He examines, in turn, arguments from silence, several Bible commentaries and their takes, “the conventional and/or preferred ways of delivering historical narrative” in the literary methods of the ancient world (a factor vastly unknown or ignored by atheist and theologically liberal “exegesis”), — particularly the techniques of “telescoping” and “thematic order,” which was “fairly standard practice in the ancient world.” He then provides hard evidence of these practices from:

1) a monument of ancient Assyria,
2) Josephus,
3) Thucydides,
4) Dionysius of Halicarnassus, and
5) Jason of Cyrene and the Roman Jurists.

Then he discusses “Epitome” — which “was a genre of writing which was specifically a condensation of another’s work(s), or a group of authors’ works on a specific theme.” He notes the ancient preference for thematic rather than chronological order and shows how the Bible writers were of the same mind in that respect. Miller writes (his bolding and color):

 

What this means is that it will be very, very difficult to find a ‘chronological contradiction’ anywhere in the gospel narratives, since the gospel authors are not even trying to maintain strict chronological sequence—it just was not that important to writers of that period. They arranged their material in the interests of clarity of logical or thematic presentation, instead of chronological. And this condensation, omission, and telescoping is pervasive in all of biblical literature.

 

He proceeds to document massive examples of these techniques being used in the New Testament, and a few from the Old Testament. He then argues (quite brilliantly) that because these techniques were widely understood at the time, the first skeptics of Christianity in the pagan world did not use these issues as a point of attack. He gives extensive examples of Celsus, and shows that he did not argue in such a fashion. He then analyzes Porphyry and shows how he looked for contradictions, but ones of “contradiction between teachings, not about chronology.” He summarizes:

Remember, my thesis here is not that ancient authors didn’t find any chronological contradictions to attack, but rather that they did not argue the existence of contradictions from telescoped, condensed, high-omission-count, summarized passages. . . .

See, this is my point: modern attacks/assertions of objectors/believers alike are just often off-the-mark, given the ancient literary world. The conventions we see in OUR passages here are such that nobody should be ‘exorcising extraneous detail’ out of them, because they were not written for that purpose.

Note that this applies to ANY/ALL ‘chronological contradiction’ issues, not just our Infancy Story case. Many objections against the NT will simply be off the mark for this reason alone.

He examines arguments of Macarius Magnes, Hierocles, and Julian, whose critical work reveals the same lack of modern techniques of atheists and liberals who no longer understand how ancient near eastern literature operated. He sees some exception in Julian, but then gives a theory to explain the difference (his different upbringing and lack of understanding in certain areas and his frequent lack of scruples and principle in argument). He then summarizes a self-consistent chronology of the infancy narratives:

The ‘traditional’ sequence given in the back of many bibles, then, involves placing the Magi/Flight sequence ‘inside’ Luke 2.39. As can be seen in the ‘conservative’ commentators we cited above, one can visualize those events in a “telescopic gap” in Luke’s account (who has already telescoped 3 trips to Jerusalem into 2). The sequence then becomes:

(1) after the last trip to Jerusalem, the holy family returns to Bethlehem [Joseph perhaps supposing that the Son of David should grow up there];

(2) the proclamation by Simeon and Anna probably reaches Herod’s ears and sensitizes him to the prophetic time frame;

(3) Magi arrive at Jerusalem and travel on to Bethlehem, and then depart;

(4) warning to Joseph/Flight to Egypt;

(5) Slaughter of the Innocents–with the ‘two years and under’ clause indicating the lack of precision in the timing, but also that the Magi visited sometime AFTER the first several months of Jesus’ life;

(6) death of Herod; and finally

(7) return of the holy family from Egypt to Galilee. This easily fits the scant data we have in the gospels.

Then he provides a capsule summary of all the massive argumentation he just did (thus showing the huge fallacies and ignorance of the atheist attacks on Scripture on these grounds):

  • The initial objections are based too heavily on assumptions, omissions and alleged implications in the presenting texts, and cannot stand as currently stated.
  • Arguments from silence in historical narratives require (at least) that the author was attempting to give a full account and that the details omitted were absolutely central to the story line (as used by the author for his/her narrative aims).
  • Conservative bible commentators are not ‘embarrassed’ by the silences of Mt/Luke, and many offer plausible reconstructions of narrative intent (which explain the omissions’ roles in the ‘surface’ of the text).
  • The literary world (even today) knows of the telescoping and summarization techniques, and the ancient literary world both prescribed (Lucian) and widely used (many authors) these.
  • The implication of this for us is that we need to read ancient narratives more through thematic than chronological eyes—in cases of abridgment and telescoping.
  • The NT writers—as members of the class of ‘ancient writers’—used this technique heavily, too. [And so did the writers of the Hebrew Bible.]
  • The first major anti-Christian writers in history never seem to deny this principle—they never attack such usage as ‘where contradictions lie’. There are little-to-no attacks on chronology, and those that do appear do not conform to the pattern under study.
  • The most famous cases in the NT of telescoping are not ‘taken to task’ by any of the classically-trained ancient objectors, including Porphyry.
  • The single case of the emperor Julian—even though it is not fully in our pattern– can be understood as due to his abnormal (and imbalanced) education.

Fantastic! This reveals, as brilliantly as I’ve ever seen, the profundity of the ignorance of so many critics of the Bible, with regard to ancient literary techniques and understandings. In addition to not understanding the basics of logic (what a true contradiction is), they fall prey to not comprehending these very important and relevant factors as well.

See also the related materials:

“Solving the Census of Quirinius” (10-27-20)

“Historical Evidence for Quirinius and the Census”, Bible History.net, 2013.

“The Census of Quirinius”, The Bible History Guy, 10-16-19.

Recent Scholarship Dating Herod’s Death Matches Christian Texts About Jesus’s Birth, G. W. Thielman, The Federalist, 12-20-17. 

***

Photo credit: The Adoration of the Shepherds (1622), by Gerard van Honthorst (1590-1656) [public domain / Wikimedia Commons]

***

2018-01-04T13:08:22-04:00

 Catholic Verses (550x834)

Apologetics is disliked usually because of personal inability, or observing others doing it badly.

A Catholic wrote on the Coming Home Network [“CHNI”] discussion board where I moderate [a job I had from 2007-2010], that apologetics was “useless” and that it consisted of “people arguing their little points always taken out of context.” She proclaimed loudly that she had “no use for apologetics” and that “arguing little points settles nothing and only further polarizes.”

Well, as you can imagine, that didn’t sit well with me, so I had a bit to say about it!:

* * * * *

Most people (at least those who are here) see the self-evident value of apologetics. When someone blasts apologetics altogether, then I must speak up and show the unreasonableness of this position, especially in a forum where so many people are here in the first place because of the apologetics constantly exhibited on The Journey Home and in written conversion testimonies and the largely apologetic writings that CHNI sells precisely in order to help new and prospective converts. CHNI is essentially an apologetic enterprise (which was a big reason, I think, why I was hired).

CHNI is also quite “pastoral” and a support system on a basic human level of understanding and empathy, but apologetics works hand in hand with that. It has to, because people who are considering converting ask tons of questions (usually quite good ones) and some sort of answer has to be provided, and there is your apologetics.

You can tell a person what Catholics believe, which is catechesis, but as soon as they ask, “why do you believe that?” or “how can that belief be squared with the Bible?” and so forth, then you are in the realm of apologetics, whether you want to be or not, and whether you personally “like” apologetics or not. It won’t be sufficient to merely say, “believe it and take it on faith and don’t ask questions. Shut down your mind, because this is a faith question, not a rational consideration.” That does no one any good. That’s no better than being in a mind-control cult.

St. Paul certainly liked apologetics, since he is often described as “arguing” and “reasoning” with and “persuading” and “dialoguing” with both Jews and Greeks, and we see him most definitely doing apologetics (in a very clever and useful way) at Mars Hill in Athens (Acts 17).

A major reason people who don’t like apologetics do so, in my opinion, from long observation, is either because they are no good at it themselves (some people frown upon what they are unable to do) or because they observe other people doing it badly, and they throw the baby out with the bathwater. It’s a very common emotional response to many things: the equation of a thing with its corruption or poorly understood manifestations of same.

And so apologetics is often equated with useless quarreling and wrangling (because many indeed who claim the mantle of “apologetics” on the Internet unfortunately too often do little more than that), which approach is indeed condemned repeatedly by St. Paul.

But that isn’t what apologetics is, anymore than a calm, constructive father-to-son or mother-to-daughter discussion is to be equated with a family spat or true quarrel, filled with accusations and insults and yelling and (as the case may be) cussing.

Another, less hostile person wrote: “I think authors/apologists tend to lose credibility when they are constantly criticizing other denominations. It sort of goes against the teachings of Christ.”

Not at all (as to the latter assertion). I fully agree that folks should emphasize a positive, proactive message, but on the other hand, the Bible is filled with denunciations of false teaching. Jesus’ most “negative” utterances were directed against the Pharisees. He even called them “vipers” and “whitewashed tombs” and “the blind leading the blind.” St. Paul goes on and on about various errors and names people like “Alexander the Coppersmith” who had opposed him. I could give innumerable examples. He is constantly correcting false teaching, and states, for example:

2 Timothy 4:3-4 (RSV) For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own likings, and will turn away from listening to truth and wander into myths.

St. Peter opposed false teachings as soon as he started preaching after Pentecost. He opposed Ananias and Sapphira, accused them of lying to the Holy Spirit, and in fact they were both judged and struck dead by God (Acts 5:2-11). This is arguably the first “anathema.” He rebuked Simon for trying to buy the power of the Holy Spirit (Acts 8:14-24): what is now known as “simony”. The Apostle John is thought to be often opposing the Gnostics in his Gospel (as many commentaries note).

The Church Fathers continued this practice. They were always opposing false doctrines and heresies and sects. St. Augustine, the greatest father of all, wrote tons against the Donatists and Manichaeans (his own former group) and the Pelagians. Athanasius wrote against the Arians, etc., etc. They condemned the errors and then appealed to the Catholic Church as the truth because its doctrines had been passed down and preserved without corruption.

The Council of Trent (like all ecumenical councils) was largely devoted to correcting errors (that is, criticizing others). It had to do this, because it was condemning the falsehoods that Protestantism had brought in. The Council of Ephesus in 431 condemned Nestorianism; Chalcedon in 451 took on Monophysitism, etc. The Council of Nicaea anathematized Arianism.

It’s always been this way and always will be. A large part of the task of an apologist like myself is to correct errors as well as defend the truth (in fact, this is largely part of my specifically delegated task as a staff member of CHNI; I’m a sort of “doctrinal watchdog”). They are really two sides of the same coin. One tries to do it in as nice and non-personal way as possible, but many people are bound to be offended when they are told that they are wrong, by the standard of the Church and the Bible and apostolic tradition, etc.

But aren’t we “judging others” when we say they’re wrong? Is that not a lack of love (so the objection goes)? No we’re not “judging” in that bad sense of the word (i.e., hypocritically or uncharitably condemning), if in fact they are in error. To correct someone and set them back on the right path is, in fact, quite a loving thing to do (as every loving, concerned parent who disciplines their child understands full well).

Of course we are to exercise Christian, unconditional love. Part of that love is to rebuke someone in love, for their good, not to harm or belittle them. Love is not always touchy-feely, warm fuzzies, peaches and cream. It’s not just us, personally, who are right, but the Church, which is larger than we are.

I do agree, though, that there are a not insignificant number of apologists (real or imagined) who have a problem with tone (though the problem is often overstated or exaggerated). With the Internet, many people call themselves “apologists” but have insufficient background to do so, and give others a bad name (I had been a Catholic over six years, and published in books and several magazines and had even written my first book before I ever had a website at all).

Believe me, I know of this problem, because I often have to receive a brunt of criticism because of baggage people have, in reacting to others doing apologetics in a poor way, setting a bad example (one becomes a sort of scapegoat, I suppose). So I’m quite aware of it, and I have advised folks many times to tone it down, when I thought they were doing apologetics badly.

And others have told me to “tone it down”, too, when the occasion warranted it, as I am not perfect, and with the large volume of words that I write and number of people and different belief-systems I interact with, it is very difficult to be perfect in tone, charity, and speech (thus I have issued many public apologies when I thought I blew it). Who ever does a perfect job? We all fall often in matters of control of the tongue.

But, that said, one can know if he has enough patience and knowledge, by and large, to deal with “difficult” individuals in such debate, and those who differ, or whether to wisely refrain from doing so.

Anyway, I want to emphasize that both things are important, and are harmonious with each other:

1) We need to exercise the love of Christ and express ourselves gently and charitably.

and:

2) At times, we need to correct doctrinal or ethical error (bishops and priests and teachers and catechists and apologists all the more so), and do it in the spirit of #1. This is not contrary to #1 at all, and in fact, is an aspect of it, as error never did anyone any good. If we can’t do #2 with the spirit of #1, then we shouldn’t do it at all, in many cases, and should ask someone more charitable to do it, so as to avoid hypocrisy and possibly scandal.

I was asked if everyone is “called to be an apologist.” Obviously not all are called to apologetics as a vocation or occupation, as I have been. I think, though, that in some way every Christian should at least have a rudimentary understanding of why they believe what they believe, in order to bear witness to others if asked. That can be obtained by reading just one or two good apologetic books. This is the bare minimum, in my opinion. Reading a book or two or hearing some lectures or attending one apologetic conference certainly won’t put anyone out.

On the other hand, not everyone can become an expert on everything. That’s why people specialize and become theology professors or priests or nuns or catechists or lay apologists (or a church musician or eucharistic minister, etc.). Different parts of the Body . . .: that’s how God designed it, “each with his own gift.” Whatever gift God gives us, we ought to put to good use: whether we are in the medical profession or an engineer or janitor or baker or waitress; whatever it is: whether exalted in this world or looked down upon.

And I say the work of the mother and housewife is the most important work of all in this world; I always contend that what my wife does as a homeschooling mom is more important than what I do. All work is honorable and no one should feel any shame, but all should use their God-given abilities as best they can.

St. Paul changed his method according to his hearers (1 Cor 9:19-23). Hence on Mars Hill in Athens: the intellectual center of the world at that time, he spoke in a way we don’t see him speak anywhere else. He quotes pagan Greek poets and philosophers, talks about Greek idols, and makes an analogical philosophical argument.

In approaching issues of basic apologetics, we all have to accept the word of scholars at some point. A few books read along these lines will help our faith and our confidence in the objective facts of Christianity, and aid us in gaining more confidence. But everyone who seeks to do apologetics should be thoroughly prepared. I always tell people not to get too zealous without adequately studying up first.

Having a desire to get to the place of what might be called “apologetic confidence” is already three-quarters of the battle. So many people care little about the things of God and theology, let alone about sharing it with anyone else in a cogent fashion. If someone has the desire, they’ll get there in due course. All they have to do is read on some basic topics. And there is plenty online that can be read for free now. All of Chesterton’s apologetic books are available, etc.

Someone recounted their experience in sparring with an atheist professor: “I posted links for said [NT documentary] evidence, [but] I was laughed to scorn since I could not provide it myself. He claimed there was more evidence to the contrary, including archaeological.”

No one is required to know everything on the spot. Most people are not Bible scholars or professional apologists. Providing a link is no more laughable than a scholar recommending a book in a footnote. This atheist was acting like an arrogant ass, in my opinion. He needs to be challenged to produce this “evidence” he refers to, by all means. Most of these types of guys know very little about the Bible. I’ve always marveled at this.

I’ll be debating some professor of philosophy, and he fancies himself an expert on Scripture. But now he is on my turf, the area I’ve studied for over 30 years now, and it doesn’t go well for him when I point out some basic things that he is ignorant of (I have many such debates on my site. I’m not exaggerating at all).

Knowledge and scholarly attainment in one area doesn’t automatically transfer into another. It’s not that I have all the answers, at all (I certainly don’t): in these cases it is so often the sheer ignorance of the atheist in biblical and theological matters that makes them easy to refute. I have many papers about this. I’ve seen it again and again.

They think they know so much about the Bible and Christianity, but almost invariably it turns out that they really don’t, and it is only bluster to intimidate the Christian, and intellectual arrogance. And if you dare to critique their “deconversion” stories, as I have, to show that the reasons why they forsook Christianity fall short, to say the least, they go spastic. One such case was John Loftus, who runs the blog, Debunking Christianity, and has a book out that is selling decently for its type.

These same supposedly oh-so-smart people will deny, for example, that Jesus ever existed: a perfectly ridiculous thing to believe. Mainly, I’m trying to get across that we Christians (of whatever stripe) need not be so intimidated by these folks. They can be effectively answered more easily than is thought.

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(originally 1-27-08)

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2017-04-25T13:34:50-04:00

Haystack

Lookin’ for that elusive needle in a haystack . . .  [Flickr / CC BY-SA 2.0 license]

* * *

These exchanges occurred in the combox of my post, Theist & Atheist Burdens of Proof. JGravelle‘s words will be in blue.

* * * * *

“If you think atheism is true …”

Again, atheism = non-belief in [a] deity[s]. Period. So the premise:

“If you think not believing in God is true…”

is demonstrably absurd. Substitute any other state of “not being” (“If you think not bowling is true…”) and this sort of double-talk becomes painfully apparent.

You bear no burden of proof in denying that I have a personal relationship with the ghost of Napoleon Bonaparte (who say’s “Hi”, by the way).

The burden lies entirely with the claimant, and the more outrageous the claim, the more substantial the evidence required to justify it…

What is your worldview, if not atheism? Scientism? That, it seems to me, is the de facto religious belief of most atheists. Empiricism is embraced as the be-all and end-all epistemology. Since science is the carrier of that view, it becomes almost a religious tenet.

It’s seen as the final determinant: almost of all truth whatsoever (as if there are not other valid forms of knowledge), which is a plainly ludicrous view, since it starts with non-empirical assumptions and axioms, to even get off the ground.

Atheism isn’t a worldview; it’s a singular position on a single issue: that the case for god[s] has not been made. Not believing in Zeus is not a worldview.

“… the de facto religious belief of most atheists…” And again, a lack of belief is not a belief. Nor is bald a hairstyle.

Nor does atheism carry the “non-empirical assumptions and axioms”. My dictionary offers “factual” as synonymous with “empirical”. I sincerely hope you’re not arguing that the demand for facts is foundationally unfactual…

I asked you “What is your worldview, if not atheism?” And so you come back and talk about atheism some more. Do you deny that you have a worldview and/or a philosophy?

You can pretend all day long that you have no belief-system and merely reject other ones, but it’s impossible to do. With every word and sentence you write, and concept you express, you broadcast that you have some sort of overall view. You can’t possibly think at all and not have one.

If you truly had none you would be required to sit and say nothing, or only gibberish that no one else could comprehend.

Yeah, you did. And again (again, again) atheism is NOT a world view.

The question is on par with: What is your clothing, if not a hippopotamus…?

Everyone has a worldview. You seem to have misunderstood my question (and I see that it was not as clear as it could have been). I am saying, “okay, since you tell me atheism is not your worldview, what IS your worldview, then?”

Above, I speculated that your worldview might very well be scientism, or empiricism elevated to quasi-religious / “super epistemological” status.

I understand the question, Mr. Armstrong. Had you simply phrased it as “What is your worldview?” my answer would have been:

a) My worldview is the fundamental cognitive orientation that encompasses (in part) both my knowledge and perspective; and that

b) The discussion OF my worldview is an irrelevant “chase the tangential stick” ploy of the desperate sort used time and time again to divert from the fact that you aren’t addressing the fallacy of your original claim.

Atheism is NOT a worldview. The premise is wrong sir, rendering any syllogistic conclusions that follow dubious at best…

That doesn’t tell me what your worldview is. Everyone has a particular “cognitive orientation.” Which brand, is the question.

Which “brand” is the irrelevant question that diverts from your fallacious premise, i.e. that atheism is a worldview.

Atheists, like theists, HAVE worldviews. Atheists, like theists, HAVE underwear as well. But if I begin a thesis with the premise that theism is an undergarment, I’d be wrong, and you’d be right to challenge me.

And if my only defense were “Well then show me YOUR underwear” I hope we’d agree that it was a feeble and desperate retort…

I give up. You admit that you have a worldview, but refuse to share with us what it is.

Obviously, my own opinion is that atheism is a worldview. It has varieties, but it is one.

I was happy to grant for the sake of argument that it is not one, but continues to maintain that everyone has a worldview; and “everyone” includes you.

So I asked you what your worldview was. You won’t tell us.

Why you won’t, is for readers to decide.

* * *

atheist /ˈeɪθɪˌɪst/ noun

1. a person who does not believe in God or gods

adjective

2. of or relating to atheists or atheism

Your replies continue to be out to sea. I freely granted that for you, atheism is not a worldview, and asked you what your worldview was, since everyone has one. It’s inescapable.

Gracious of you. Nor is it a worldview for anybody, . . . 

And my first, and primary objection that “If you think atheism is true” equates to “If you think not believing in God is true” and is thus nonsensical, remains unaddressed.

You don’t like rabbit trails; nor do I. As expected, we can’t even agree on what a rabbit trail is. What else is new in the ongoing saga of Christian-atheist [cough] pseudo-“discourse” and ships passing in the night?

But I still get a new post out of this [would-be] exchange that I think is valuable for my readers.

As do I, my friend…

You have one [a worldview]. The only question is whether 1) you are aware of that, and 2) are willing to share it with us peasants who deign to lower ourselves to asking such a personal question.

I did not call you a peasant, sir. Please don’t take my unwillingness to chase tangents or accept absurd premises as haughtiness…

I guess now these “absurd premises” that I have documented five atheists [below] using about their own view, are all the more absurd. If, after all, atheists use absurd, false premises to describe what they themselves believe, that fits in quite well with what I’ve been saying for 35 years. :-) One would expect me to say that atheism is absurd, but for an atheist to actively help prove it is precious indeed.

Thanks for the humorous irony here. I did enjoy it quite a bit.

Psygn also chimed in:

I have no idea which philosophical label is closest to my personal philosophical style, nor do I care.

I find it odd that you insist on reducing individuals to a label,

It’s not about labeling (as if I’m trying to “contain” and dismiss someone); it’s about self-awareness and honesty regarding the approach to reality that one takes.

Someone famous said once: “the most dangerous philosophy is the unacknowledged one.” We all have one, but some pretend not to.

* * *

Interestingly, I have found several atheists who seem to think that atheism is a worldview, despite JGravelle’s vociferous and adamant objections. So why should I take his word as “gospel truth” over against these other atheists? And if they think this, why can’t I do so? I found five instances of it, without trying very hard:

Atheism as a Positive Worldview (Adam Lee, Patheos, 17 June 2006)

I Believe: An Atheist’s “World View” (Edward Falzon, Huffington Post, 16 Sep. 2012)

John W. Loftus, who runs the big Debunking Christianity website and writes a lot of books that are selling well, freely uses the terminology:

What counts as evil in my atheist worldview is a separate problem from the Christian problem of evil. (no page number discernible, but here is the Google Books link

(Why I Became an Atheist: A Former Preacher Rejects Christianity, Revised & Expanded version, Prometheus Books, 2012)

Alex Rosenberg, in his book, The Atheist’s Guide to Reality: Enjoying Life Without Illusions (W. W. Norton & Co., 2011), writes:

[T]hey [scientific “answers”] are a part — a positive part — of the atheist’s worldview. (Preface, p. ix)

This guy even makes the same claim that I did, above: that the worldview of the atheist is usually “scientism.” Take it from him:

[W]e’ll call the worldview that all us atheists (and even some agnostics) share “scientism.” This is the conviction that the methods of science are the only reliable ways to secure knowledge of anything . . . (p. 6)

He not only believes the same as I do in that regard, but defines it almost precisely as I did above (minus the description of “religious belief”):What is your worldview, if not atheism? Scientism? That, it seems to me, is the de facto religious belief of most atheists. Empiricism is embraced as the be-all and end-all epistemology.”

In a book about atheism (The Evolution of Atheism: The Politics of a Modern Movement, Stephen LeDrew, Oxford University Press USA, 2015), a guy named Michael, who led some sort of atheist group in his community, was cited as saying:

Again, it’s not to try to convert anyone in the public to an atheist, it’s just to say we’re atheist, this is what an atheist is, this is the atheist worldview. You know, we’re not Satan worshippers, we’re not evil, we’re not hedonists . . . (p. 157)

2017-04-25T13:45:56-04:00

Lies About What I Do from the All-Too-Common “Angry Atheist” 

AngryMan8

[public domain / Pixabay]

* * *

Pete Migdale was banned from my Patheos blog, which doesn’t allow personal insults. I think you’ll see why in the following tirades that he has launched in the last 12 hours, on an extremely popular atheist post: Jesus never existed. It also illustrates why I only rarely comment in atheist venues, because they freely allow garbage like this:

Wow! Dave the intellectual coward emerges from his “Love me or Be banned” domain to post a comment.

You don’t discuss, you demand respect for absurd positions and anyone who calls you for your nonsense is deleted, you can’t take being bettered.
You are one of the most experienced onanists I have ever encountered.

No point going there, make a clever comment and you will be banned and blocked. He is a pathetic, little, power freak who can’t cope with reality.

* * *

Dave is a very average catholic apologist who, on his own blog, blocks anyone who derails his little red wagon. Typical catholic, silence that which you can’t rebut.

What is annoying in particular about him that he initially appears interested in discourse then he just stops when challenged.

He is very self aggrandising, condescending and arrogant. He is deserving of ridicule whenever you catch him “out in the wild”.

The funniest part is that anyone can see that I am debating atheists almost on a daily basis (i.e., the ones who aren’t exhibiting relentless verbal diarrhea). Anyone can see that by going to my blog and searching “atheism” on the sidebar. Yesterday I posted a discussion with atheist and noted my dinner with six atheists in June (which we all enjoyed). The day before I posted two more debates / dialogues with atheists or agnostics [one / two].

In fact, I was debating in the last few days one of the very people that Pete was “talking” to in this thread “TheMarsCydonia”]. LOL

So go figure . . . But we shouldn’t be surprised that an atheist like this clown would be spreading slanderous myths, legends, and fables, since he is participating on a ludicrous thread called “Jesus never existed.” One myth or Lie is as good as the next, right?

I went over to this thread and posted the following fact-encumbered comment:

Nice try, Pete.

1. I’ve been debating Mars over the last few days on my site. He’s still there, as he has been for months, and not banned.

2. I hardly ever participate in atheist venues because they allow fools like you to pollute them, without any censure at all.

3. Me and Mars had this discussion in a different form in a dialogue which was posted on my site two days ago.

So much for all your lies. That’s odd behavior if (as you fancy) I supposedly avoid all sentient, breathing atheists like the plague, am scared to death of them, and flee every possible intellectual encounter in abject terror, since I am invariably “bested” etc.

The truth of the matter is that I greatly enjoy debating atheists and have been doing so almost on a daily basis at Patheos, and online generally for 17 years: including several professors, such as philosopher Dr. Theodore Drange, or lawyers, or leading figures like John Loftus of Debunking Christianity infamy and Amazon bestsellers, etc. [one / two / three / four / five]

Anyone can readily see the amount of interaction by searching “atheism” on the sidebar on my blog.

But fools like you, with verbal diarrhea, are not allowed on my site because we want constructive, amiable dialogue to take place.

So lie away; you only confirm the wisdom of banning you in the first place. You came onto my site with almost exclusively insults (just as you spew here) and so, quite consistently with my posted discussion policy, I hit the ejector seat.

Thanks for the opportunity to set the record straight and for more exposure! I do appreciate that.

He replied in that thread, with this:

LIAR, but I expected that you coward. You are an intellectual prawn!

Literally, all this clown does is insult Christians in his comments. He’s like an atheist Don Rickles. You can see that in the record of his comments on Disqus. Apparently he thinks it is “free speech” to allow his horse manure to be freely aired in a Christian venue. We must do it under pain of being mocked and ridiculed and lied about as cowards, etc., if we don’t. That game doesn’t work with me. Moreover, it’s widely acknowledged by all (Christian and atheist alike) that trolling is unethical online conduct.

It’s pretty ironically humorous, too, that in one of the recent dialogues mentioned above, with the agnostic academic JD Eveland, with whom I’ve now had many enjoyable and amiable dialogues, JD wrote in the combox this very day: “A very nice job of weaving together a couple of different strands here, Dave! You’ve certainly been quite fair to my arguments.”

So, as always, folks either “love” me or despise me. It’s always been that way, always will be. It’s the lot of the apologist who dares to take a stand on truth (in my case, defense of Catholicism and general Christianity. When you take a stand and offer any critiques, this will be the dual reaction. Many will detest you; others will respect that you are a conscientious thinker, who tries to be charitable to opponents.

Irrational opposition should never come as a surprise to the Christian, about whom Jesus said, “you will be hated by all for my name’s sake.” So why would anyone be shocked when this happens? I would say that our Christianity is highly suspect if it does not ever happen, or only rarely so. Christianity ain’t a popularity contest, and Christian apologetics certainly is not!

2018-06-16T15:55:38-04:00

Hitchens

Christopher Hitchens (1949-2011): one of the most famous of the “new atheists”; image by Surian Soosay (12-16-11) [Flickr / CC BY 2.0 license]

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Alphabetical by Author

 

ATHEISM, CRITIQUES OF 

Atheist Demands for “Empirical” Proofs of God (Dave Armstrong, 2015)

Atheism: More Rational & Scientific than Christianity? (Dave Armstrong, 2015)

On Critiquing Atheist “Deconversion” Stories (Dave Armstrong, 2015)

The Atheist Obsession with Insulting Christians (Dave Armstrong, 2015)

Atheism: the Faith of “Atomism” (Dave Armstrong, 2015)

The Atheism of the Gaps (Stephen M. Barr, 1995)

The Presumptuousness of Atheism (Paul Copan, 1997)

Cosmology – A Religion for Atheists? [Hawking] (William Lane Craig)

Theistic Critiques Of Atheism (William Lane Craig, 2007)

Is Unbelief Culpable? (William Lane Craig, 2010)

Straw men and terracotta armies [atheists & the cosmological argument] (Edward Feser, 2009)

Grow up or shut up [atheists & the cosmological argument] (Edward Feser, 2011)

The road from atheism (Edward Feser, 2012)

Clarke on the stock caricature of First Cause arguments  [atheists & the cosmological argument] (Edward Feser, 2014)

Repressed Knowledge of God (+ Part II) (Edward Feser, 2015)

There’s no such thing as “natural atheology” (Edward Feser, 2015)

My Pilgrimage from Atheism to Theism: A Discussion between Antony Flew and Gary Habermas (2004)

Answer to an Atheist: Are Humans Nothing More Than Bodies? (Hank Hanegraaff, 2000)

Christianity and Pagan Literature (James Hannam, 2003)

Ten quick responses to atheist claims (John Lennox, 2014)

Atheists and the Quest for Objective Morality (Chad Meister, 2010)

God on the Brain (Angus Menuge, 2010)

Ghosts for the Atheist (Robert Velarde, 2009)

The Psychology of Atheism (Paul C. Vitz)

 

CONCILIATORY EFFORTS / COMMON GROUND

Secular Humanism and Christian Humanism: Seeking After Common Ground (Dave Armstrong and Sue Strandberg, 2001)

Can Atheists be Saved? Are They All “Evil”? (Dave Armstrong, 2003)

Constructive, Enjoyable Atheist-Christian Discussion Perfectly Possible (Dave Armstrong, 2007)

16 Atheists / Agnostics and Me: Sounds Like a Good Ratio! Further Adventures at an Atheist “Bible Study” Group (Dave Armstrong, 2010)

Clarifications re: Atheist “Reductio” Paper (Dave Armstrong, 2015)

NT on God-Rejecters vs. Open-Minded Agnostics (Dave Armstrong, 2015)

Legitimate Atheist Anger (Dave Armstrong, 2015)

My Enjoyable Dinner with Six Atheist Friends (Dave Armstrong, 2015)

 

EVIL, PROBLEM OF 

Treatise on the Problem of Evil (Dave Armstrong, 2002)

Some Christian Replies to the Problem of Evil as Set Forth by Atheists (Dave Armstrong, 2006)

Dialogue #2 with an Atheist on the Problem of Evil (Dave Armstrong vs. “drunken tune”, 2006)

Dialogue #3 with an Atheist on the Problem of Evil (Dave Armstrong vs. John W. Loftus, 2006)

“Logical” Problem of Evil: Alvin Plantinga’s Decisive Refutation [Dave Armstrong, 2006]

Is the “Strong” Logical Argument From Evil Largely Discredited If Not Dead, Or Alive & Well? (Atheist Confusion) (Dave Armstrong, 2006)

Why Did a Perfect God Create an Imperfect World? (Dave Armstrong, 2015)

How Can God be Just and Ordain Evil? (John A. Battle, 1996)

The Connection-Building Theodicy (Robin Collins, 2012)

Debate: God, Morality, and Evil (William Lane Craig vs. Kai Nielsen, Feb. 1991)

Freedom and the Ability to Choose Evil (William Lane Craig, 2008)

Animal Suffering (William Lane Craig, 2009)

The “Evil god” Objection (William Lane Craig, 2011)

Problem of Evil without Objective Moral Values (William Lane Craig, 2011)

Molinism and the Soteriological Problem of Evil Once More (William Lane Craig, 2011)

On the Goodness of God (William Lane Craig, 2012)

The Problem of Evil Once More (William Lane Craig, 2012)

Gratuitous Evil and Moral Discernment (William Lane Craig, 2013)

God’s Permitting Natural Evil (William Lane Craig, 2013)

God’s Permitting Horrific Evils (William Lane Craig, 2014)

Law’s “evil-god challenge” (+ Part II) (Edward Feser, 2010-2011)

The Logical Problem of Evil: Mackie and Plantinga (Daniel Howard-Snyder)

How an Unsurpassable Being Can Create a Surpassable World (Daniel and Frances Howard-Snyder, 1994)

The Real Problem of No Best World (Frances and Daniel Howard-Snyder, 1996)

Transworld Sanctity and Plantinga’s Free Will Defense (Daniel Howard-Snyder & John O’Leary-Hawthorne, 1998)

Is Theism Compatible with Gratuitous Evil? (Daniel and Frances Howard-Snyder, 1999)

God, Evil, and Suffering (Daniel Howard-Snyder, 1999)

On Rowe’s Argument from Particular Horrors (Daniel Howard-Snyder, 2001)

Grounds for Belief in God Aside, Does Evil Make Atheism More Reasonable than Theism? (Daniel Howard-Snyder & Michael Bergmann, 2001)

Theodicy (Daniel Howard-Snyder, 2006)

The Magnitude, Duration, and Distribution of Evil: A Theodicy (Peter van Inwagen, 1988)

The Problem of Evil, the Problem of Air, and the Problem of Silence (Peter van Inwagen, 1991)

Probability and Evil (Peter van Inwagen, 1997)

The Argument from Particular Horrendous Evils (Peter van Inwagen, 2001)

The Problem of Evil: Preliminaries (Robert C. Koons, 1998)

Tough-minded and Tender-hearted Responses to the Problem of Evil (Robert C. Koons, 1998)

The Free Will Defense (Robert C. Koons, 1998)

God’s Answer to Human Suffering (Peter Kreeft, 1986)

Evil (Peter Kreeft, 1988)

Does the savagery of predation in nature show that God either isn’t, or at least isn’t good-hearted? (Glenn Miller, 1999)

Theodicy (+ Part II / Part III / Part IV / Part V) (Glenn Miller, 2000)

Christian Theism and the Problem of Evil (Michael L. Peterson, 1978)

The Perfect Goodness of God (Alvin Plantinga, 1962)

The Probablistic Argument from Evil (Alvin Plantinga, 1978)

Degenerate Evidence and Rowe’s New Evidential Argument from Evil (Alvin Plantinga, 1998)

A New Free Will Defense (Alexander R. Pruss, 2002)

Limiting God to solve the problem of evil (Alexander R. Pruss, 2012)

The argument from partial theodicy (Alexander R. Pruss, 2015)

Why Does God Allow Suffering? (Lee Strobel, 2001)

The Problem of Observed Pain: A Study of C. S. Lewis on Suffering (Robert Walter Wall, 1983)

 

“GOOD: PROBLEM OF”

Dialogue w an Atheist on the “Problem of Good” (Dave Armstrong vs. Mike Hardie, 2001)

 

HELL: “PROBLEM” OF

Friendly Discussion on Presuppositions and Basic Differences (Particularly, Hell), With an Agnostic (Dave Armstrong vs. Ed Babinski, 2005)

Dialogue on Hell and God’s Justice, Part II (Dave Armstrong, 2009)

Debate: Can a Loving God Send People to Hell? (William Lane Craig vs. Ray Bradley, 1994)

Bradley on Hell (William Lane Craig, 2007)

Do the Damned in Hell Accrue Further Punishment? (William Lane Craig, 2008)

Reasonable Damnation: How Jonathan Edwards Argued for the Rationality of Hell (Bruce W. Davidson, 1995)

Hell (Peter Kreeft, 1988)

What kind of a choice is THAT?!: “Love me or Burn”? (Glenn Miller)

A Traditionalist Response to John Stott’s Arguments for Annihilationism (Robert A. Peterson, 1994)

Fallacies in the Annihilationism Debate?  (Robert A. Peterson, 2007)

The Dark Side of Eternity: Hell as Eternal Conscious Punishment (Robert A. Peterson, 2007)

 

HIDDENNESS: DIVINE

Why Isn’t the Evidence Clearer? (John A. Bloom, 1994)

The Argument from Divine Hiddenness (Daniel Howard-Snyder, 1996)

Hiddenness of God (Daniel Howard-Snyder, 2006)

Why Doesn’t God Make Christianity Clearer? (+ Part II / Part III / Part IV / Part V) (Glenn Miller, 2000)

Coercion and the Hiddenness of God (Michael J. Murray, 1993)

 

INQUISITION AND CRUSADES

[see many links on my Inquisition, Crusades, and “Catholic Scandals” Index Page]

 

MORAL “DIFFICULTIES” OF GOD’S (OR HIS FOLLOWERS’) BEHAVIOR IN THE BIBLE / “DIVINE GENOCIDE”

The Judgment of Nations: Biblical Passages and Commentary (Dave Armstrong, 2001)

Debate on the Supposed Irrationality and Immorality of the Psalms (+ Part II / Part III / Part IV) (Dave Armstrong vs. Ed Babinski, 2004)

Did God Harden Pharaoh’s Heart, or Positively Ordain Evil? (Dave Armstrong vs. “DagoodS”, 2006)

Reflections on Original Sin and God’s Prerogative to Judge and Kill as He Wills (Sometimes, Entire Nations) (Dave Armstrong, 2007)

“How Can God [in the OT] Order the Killing and Massacre of Innocents?” [Amalekites, etc.] (Dave Armstrong, 2007)

Did Moses (and God) Sin In Judging the Midianites (Numbers 31)? (+ Part II) (Dave Armstrong, 2008)

Difficulties in Understanding God’s Judgment on Heathen Nations (and other “Problem Passages” in the OT) (Dave Armstrong, 2009)

Jephthah’s Burnt Offering Sacrifice of His Daughter (Judges 11:30-40): Did God Command or Sanction It? (Dave Armstrong, 2009)

Exodus 20:5: God’s “Punishing” or Descendants “to the Third and Fourth Generation”: Proof of an “Unjust” God? (Dave Armstrong, 2010)

Israel as God’s Agent of Judgment (Dave Armstrong, 2015)

Yahweh Wars and the Canaanites: Divinely-Mandated Genocide or Corporate Capital Punishment? (Paul Copan)

Is Yahweh a Moral Monster? The New Atheists and Old Testament Ethics (Paul Copan)

Hateful, Vindictive Psalms? (Paul Copan, 2008)

Slaughter of the Canaanites (William Lane Craig, 2007)

The “Slaughter” of the Canaanites Re-visited (William Lane Craig, 2011)

Once More: The Slaughter of the Canaanites (William Lane Craig, 2013)

How Could a Good God Sanction the Stoning of a Disobedient Child? (Hank Hanegraaff, 2007)

Are Generational Curses Biblical? (Hank Hanegraaff, 2008)

The Inspiration of the Hebrew Bible and the Morality of God’s Commands (Peter van Inwagen, 2010)

Killing the Canaanites: A Response to the New Atheism’s “Divine Genocide” Claims (Clay Jones, 2010)

OT Passages on what God considers worthy of ‘vengeance’ (Glenn Miller)

Is the God of the Bible morally repugnant? (Glenn Miller)

Is God Always Wrathful, Vengeful, Jealous, and Angry? (Glenn Miller, 2000)

Shouldn’t the butchering of the Amalekite children be considered war crimes? (Glenn Miller, 2001)

What about God’s cruelty against the Midianites? [Numbers 31] (Glenn Miller, 2001)

Is God harsh, unlovable, unloving, duplicitous? (Glenn Miller, 2003)

Why couldn’t Israel take in the Amalekites like they did foreign survivors in Deut 20? (Glenn Miller, 2006)

Was God being evil when He killed all the firstborn in Egypt? (Glenn Miller, 2009)

Did you overstate the case for Amalekites being accepted as immigrants into Israel? (Glenn Miller, 2010)

How could a God of Love order the massacre/annihilation of the Canaanites? (Glenn Miller, 2013)

 

NAZI HOLOCAUST AND THE CHURCH / ALLEGED “HITLER’S POPE”

Jewish Recognition of Pope Pius XII’s Support

Exposing Hitler’s Pope and Its Author (William Doino, Jr.)

In Defence of Pius XII and His Aid to the Jews (Rabbi David Dalin)

The Tragic Heroism of Pope Pius XII (George W. Rutler)

The Catholic Church and the Nazis (website)

Pope Pius XI [not Pius XII] and the Nazis (Jimmy Akin)

Hitler and Christianity (Edward Bartlett-Jones, 2009)

Was Hitler a Christian? (Dinesh D’Souza)

Pope Pius XII and the Jews (Sr. Margherita Marchione)

Nazi Policy and the Catholic Church (Karol Jozef Gajewski)

Nazis and Church Locked Horns Early (Zenit)

Hitler’s Pope? (Donald Devine)

Pius XII, co-conspirator in tyrannicide (George Weigel)

Cornwell’s Cheap Shot at Pius XII (Peter Gumpel)

Did Pius XII Remain Silent? (Fr. William Saunders)

Goldhagen v. Pius XII (Ronald Rychlak)

Blaming the Wartime Pope (Kenneth L. Woodward)

800,000 Saved by Pius XII’s Silence (Donald DeMarco)

Pope Pius XII’s Good Fight (Michael Coren)

 

“NEW ATHEISTS”

Critique of Atheist John W. Loftus’ “Deconversion” Story (Dave Armstrong, 2006)

Atheist John Loftus Reacts to My Analysis of His “Deconversion” (Dave Armstrong, 2006)

John Loftus’ Deconversion & Feuds w Atheists (Dave Armstrong, 2015)

What Michael Behe actually wrote in Time [about Richard Dawkins] (Michael J. Behe, 2007)

Richard Dawkins’ Argument for Atheism in The God Delusion (William Lane Craig, 2007)

Dawkins’ “Central Argument” Once More (William Lane Craig, 2008)

Dawkins’ Delusion (William Lane Craig, 2008)

Has Hawking Eliminated God? (William Lane Craig, 2011)

Curiosity With Stephen Hawking (William Lane Craig, 2011)

The New Philistinism (Edward Feser, 2010)

A clue for Jerry Coyne (Edward Feser, 2011)

Why can’t these guys stay on topic? Or read? [Jerry Coyne] (Edward Feser, 2015)

Red herrings don’t go to heaven either [Jerry Coyne] (Edward Feser, 2015)

From Rage to Faith: Peter Hitchens’ The Rage Against God (Joseph E. Gorra, 2011)

The Plight of the New Atheism: A Critique (Gary R. Habermas, 2008)

Village Atheists with Vengeance (C. Wayne Mayhall, 2007)

 

NON-BELIEF, ARGUMENT FROM

Dialogue on the Argument From Non-Belief (ANB) (Dave Armstrong vs. Steve Conifer & Dr. Ted Drange, 2003)

Reply to Atheist John Loftus’ “Outsider Test of Faith” Series (Dave Armstrong, 2007)

 

OBJECTIONS TO CHRISTIANITY AND THE BIBLE: MISCELLANEOUS

What about Those Who have Never Heard the Gospel? (Glenn Miller)

Did the Christians burn/destroy all the classical literature? (Glenn Miller, 1996)

How I would decide between conflicting revelations? (+ Part II) (Glenn Miller, 1997)

 

SEX SCANDALS (CATHOLIC)

[see many links on my Inquisition, Crusades, and “Catholic Scandals” Index Page]

 

SINNERS / HYPOCRISY IN THE CHURCH

[see many links on my Inquisition, Crusades, and “Catholic Scandals” Index Page]

 

SLAVERY AND CHRISTIANITY

The issue of ‘slavery’ in the NT/Apostolic world (esp. Paul) (Glenn Miller,  1999)

Does God Condone Slavery in the Bible? (Glenn Miller, 2004)

Christianity and the Slavery Question (Arthur Rupprecht, 1963)

[see many more links on my Inquisition, Crusades, and “Catholic Scandals” Index Page]

 

SOUL / CONSCIOUSNESS / LIFE AFTER DEATH / DUALISM / GENERAL RESURRECTION

 

The Possibility of Resurrection (Peter van Inwagen, 1978)

Resurrection (Peter van Inwagen, 1998)

The Case for Life After Death (Peter Kreeft)

Is there evidence for the existence of the “soul”? (Glenn Miller, 1997)

Is there evidence for the existence of “spirits” and some “spiritual dimension”? (Glenn Miller, 2001)

 

WOMEN, CHRISTIAN / BIBLICAL VIEW OF

Women: The Data From the Life and Ministry of Jesus (Glenn Miller, 1996)

Women: The Data From the Historical Literature of the Apostolic Circle (Glenn Miller, 1996)

Women: The Data From the Monarchy Literature (Glenn Miller, 1996)

Women: The Data From the Divided Monarchy Literature (Glenn Miller, 1996)

“Why do men get all the glory in the bible? Why are women only minor characters?!” (Glenn Miller, 1997)

Are the laws in the OT about rape and virginity indicative of a God who is unfair to women? (Glenn Miller, 2001)

Does female “pain-prone” reproductive physiology indicate that God apparently hates women? (Glenn Miller, 2001)

Women in the Bible: Pushbacks, Objections, Stereotypes [22 Objections] (Glenn Miller, 2001)

Did God treat women’s bodies as property, in the “rape” of David’s concubines by Absalom? (Glenn Miller, 2001)

Women: The Data From the Pre-Monarchy Literature (Glenn Miller, 2004)

Women in the Bible and Early Church (Glenn Miller, 2004)

Women’s Roles in the Early Church (Glenn Miller, 2005)

“Why was Jesus so mean and insulting to the Canaanite woman?” (Glenn Miller, 2006)

***

Bad links last removed: 6-10-18

 

 

2017-04-27T15:06:43-04:00

Original title: Are Atheists “Evil”? Multiple Causes of Atheist Disbelief and the Possibility of Salvation

churchsign

Not a real sign!  I made it up. See the “www” in it? But I contend that such a sign is actually possible, within a biblical / Christian paradigm.

(17 February 2003)

* * *

Jesus taught that those who love Him will at least attempt to follow His teachings:


Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.


(Matthew 7:21; see entire context of 7:16-27)


Also, James writes:

So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead.

(James 2:17; cf. 2:26; RSV)


You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.


(James 2:24; RSV)

As for non-Christians (religious or otherwise) their possible salvation depends on how much they truly know of Christianity, and what they do with that knowledge. If they really do know it and reject it, they cannot be saved. If not, they are judged by what they know and do, according to the teaching of Romans 2:1-24 (particularly 2:13-15):


Romans 2:11-16  For God shows no partiality. [12] 
All who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law. [13] For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified. [14] When Gentiles who have not the law do by nature what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. [15] They show that what the law requires is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or perhaps excuse them [16] on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus. 

As to the virtuous, “good” atheist, who is kind and loving, forgiving, etc., I believe that a variety of psychological, experiential, cultural, and philosophical factors come into play. The Bible’s position is actually that there are no atheists in fact; that everyone knows there is a God (at some level – perhaps unconsciously), but I would hasten to add that the factors cited above can affect a person so that they might possibly not be culpable to the extent of damnation. I sure hope so. It’s dangerous ground, in any event.

The Catholic Church has always held that there are such things as “invincible ignorance,” “implicit faith,” “baptism of desire,” and so forth. It’s in the Bible itself; Augustine, Aquinas, Irenaeus and Justin Martyr and many others all taught this. To the extent that atheists or anyone else think mainstream Christianity holds that only those who literally hear the gospel can be saved, they are incorrect. There are some Christians who believe this (some Calvinists and/or fundamentalists –the two groups overlap), but they are in the minority, even in the sub-group of Protestantism.

My impression of many atheists is that they seem to think it is a slam-dunk case for atheism; that it is very clear, and that, conversely, Christianity lacks any good evidences at all – and suffers from the effects of many counter-proofs – , and is clearly untrue. If that is indeed the case (about clearness), and further, if atheism is true, then there must be an awful lot of Christians and other theists who are resisting this “obvious” truth.

My view is somewhat intermediate: I think (as anyone would fully expect) that the theistic proofs are compelling and the atheist ones implausible and fallacious, yet I believe that the “psychological” aspects of belief (all sorts of belief, not just religious faith; i.e., epistemology) and the many many complex influences which make one believe what they do, “nullify” – in large part -, the clearness of the objective proofs qua proofs.

In effect, then, it would not be such a clear thing, either way, once these other non-philosophical influences and factors are taken into account. Nor (for largely the same reason) is it so straightforward (as some atheists seem to think), that if a person is presented with a fantastic miracle, that they automatically believe in God or Christianity. That is not the biblical teaching, nor what we have learned from human experience and history. And that is because every person comes to the table with a host of prior belief-paradigms and theoretical frameworks, and experiences, including the emotions and the will, which are not to be underestimated, either, in their effect on beliefs, in all people, of whatever stripe.

In my view God’s existence is known by the cumulative effect of evidence drawn from many, many sources and sorts of arguments (which includes the stars and conscience, as Paul argued in Romans 1 and 2). The teleological and cosmological arguments connect God’s existence to the known physical world, which is why they are my favorite theistic arguments; I love that “concreteness” about them.

And if even David Hume could accept a minimalist, deist form of the teleological argument, then I think we are on pretty solid philosophical ground (at least at a level that can’t be immediately dismissed as children’s fairy-tales). Albert Einstein looked at the universe and posited some sort of God; not the Christian God, but some sort (more akin to pantheism). He accepted something that was not atheism.

Furthermore, Christians don’t say that “regular miracles” are unnecessary. Most of us believe they still take place, though less often and less spectacularly than before. Christians believe in empirical proofs (the Resurrection and post-Resurrection appearances by Jesus are precisely that). The dispute here is whether we have reliable eyewitness testimony of same (which takes the arguments into the ground of “legal-type” evidence, rather than strictly empirical).

If one accepts the existence of biblical miracles on a legal criterion of how past events are determined to have occurred (such as a murder or robbery), then one can believe in Christianity for that reason, among others. Beliefs and belief-systems are formed by a huge multitude of contributing factors. As for Christians and scientific proof: if God was so opposed to that, He wouldn’t perform miracles at all, and the post-Resurrection appearances of Jesus wouldn’t have occurred.

If indeed there is no God, and people are supposedly “objective, truth-seeking machines” who will inexorably believe only if shown the proper amount of proof, why is it, then (I would ask an atheist) that the vast majority of mankind remain religious and don’t become atheists?

One should use the normal means of inquiry to determine truth. That’s the whole point of Christian apologetics. Christianity, rightly-understood, does not claim for itself some sort of esoteric, hidden “gnostic” knowledge, but attempts to appeal to eyewitness testimony and the tenets of philosophy. We accept natural law, known to all men (Romans 2), and upon which was built the English-American tradition of jurisprudence (Jefferson presupposed a Creator and natural law in the Declaration of Independence, etc.).

Skepticism and hard-nosed rationality and desire to see things proven is fine. I oppose excessive skepticism: the kind that is impervious to any disproof of itself, or evidences for opposing viewpoints because of prior ironclad predisposition. Some atheists may possess this attribute; some may not. Who’s to say? But it is foolish to deny the very concept or possibility of such excessive skepticism. If skepticism is a valid concept, then there is such a thing as an excessive amount of it, as well as too little of it. One must find a happy medium.

I’m not doubting anyone’s sincerity or intellectual honesty (including that of atheists). All I’m contending is that, as a Christian, we must believe that God put awareness of His existence in all men in some fashion. This should come as no surprise. If I believed that God didn’t do so I would agree with atheists that such a Being (if He exists) was unjust, and would I might doubt that He exists, or deny it outright. I don’t deny that such knowledge could be deeply hidden or lost, through no fault of the persons themselves.

I happen to believe that one can know there is a God by looking at creation, just as Paul in the Bible argues (Romans 1). Christians and atheists disagree on that. We disagree on lots of things. Certainly atheists cannot expect a Christian to not believe plain biblical teaching. It doesn’t follow that I am attacking atheists’ honesty or integrity, and I think belief (any belief) is an extraordinarily complex matter. Nor does it follow that I am advocating some sort of idiotic anti-empiricism or anti-scientism.

I do not think all atheists are inherently dishonest and willfully blind (though some might indeed be). I simply believe in Romans 1 and try to apply it to atheists in the most charitable, unassuming way I can. God has made Himself known to all men, as one would hope He would do. No discussion is possible if both sides think advocates of the other opinion are “fundamentally disingenuous.”

How silly is it to hold (like atheist advocates of the argument from non-belief), on the one hand, that because all men don’t believe in God, He obviously hasn’t made His existence clear enough, therefore He must not exist (because this is unjust), yet, on the other hand, hold that someone who does believe in God should not believe that He has made Himself known to all men? One can’t claim that one thing is unjust to the extent that it is grounds to doubt God’s very existence, yet complain loudly about a theist who merely consistently holds to its contrary. What do atheists want Christians to do?: believe in this unjust God that they so object to, and hold that He doesn’t give all people enough evidence, so that some go to hell unjustly? If I believed in that sort of “god,” I would hate him, not worship and adore Him, as I do.

To reiterate: I think that, on a very deep level, even atheists know that God exists. I am trying to be both honest and true to Christian views. In any event, I think any belief is extremely psychologically and intellectually complex, so it works out the same way. I don’t question anyone’s sincerity or intellectual honesty. That’s not the issue. Both sides have to come up with some reason why the “other guys” aren’t convinced by the same evidence. The prevailing atheist view is that Christians are gullible ignoramuses, anti-scientific, anti-rational, etc. Atheists can believe whatever they want about us. But Christians have to agree with biblical teaching about unbelief. That doesn’t mean we have to demonize every individual person. Many Christians do that, and they are wrong to do so.

I believe atheists’ self-report. I think people can get to a place where they truly don’t believe something, by various means. I have no problem with that. If all atheists were rotten rebels who know the God of Christianity exists, and reject Him, then they would all go to hell. But I am already on record, stating that I don’t believe that. I think many, many factors are involved in both Christian or theistic belief and atheist belief.

As for the Bible’s “philosophical” position on unbelief: there is no philosophy per se in the Bible because the Jews were not a philosophically-oriented society. They were much more practically-oriented and historically-minded. Parts of St. Paul come close, though (and he was a highly-educated man who grew up in a very cosmopolitan town of that era: Tarsus in Asia Minor).

Romans 1 is one such passage. It is a very primitive version of the teleological argument (or at least a statement of it, if not an argument – but not that dissimilar to what David Hume stated, as I have shown). Now, does Paul claim that all atheists are wicked people who suppress the truth? No. He seems to claim, as I have stated, that all people know there is a God by looking at creation (Romans 1:19-20). He rails against those who “suppress the truth” in 1:18, but there is no indication that this is intended to include everyone who doesn’t believe in God or Christianity.

This is quite obvious from context. For example, continuing to talk about people who suppress the truth, in 1:23, he condemns idol-worship (“images resembling mortal man or birds or animals or reptiles”). As far as I know, that doesn’t describe the ordinary atheist, so Paul isn’t talking about atheists at that point (rather, idolatrous polytheists). In verses 1:26 and 1:27 he describes these people who suppress the truth as lesbians and male homosexuals.

Quite arguably, this doesn’t include all homosexuals, either, as Paul is clearly making a very broad statement, and such utterances allow of exceptions. In verse 29 he says such people are murderers and those who commit all kinds of other sinful acts. In 1:30 he calls them “haters of God” (hard to hate a God one doesn’t believe exists). So, clearly, Paul is talking about those who know the truth and reject it. I don’t see how this can be interpreted as a blanket condemnation as utterly evil, all persons who aren’t Christians.

When St. Paul he was in Athens, he preached his famous sermon on Mars Hill (or, the Areopagus). He observed the idols in the city (Acts 17:16). He argued with the philosophers, including the Epicureans and Stoics (17:17-18). When he started preaching (17:22 ff.) he didn’t utterly condemn the religious practices as utterly evil, but utilized them in his presentation. He commended the people for being “very religious” (17:22). What he did was build upon their knowledge in order to present Christianity in terms they could understand. In so doing, he cited the pagans Epimenides and Aratus (his work, Phaenomena) – 17:28. He mentions that “the times of ignorance God overlooked . . . ” (17:30). Christians have argued from the beginning that there is such a thing as invincible ignorance and the possibility for those who have never heard to be saved.

Therefore, Paul cannot be interpreted to teach that all atheists are wicked God-haters who know the truth and reject it, nor that they cannot possibly be saved. This is a theme throughout the New Testament. For example, when Jesus talked to a pagan Roman centurion who probably knew little about Judaism, He commended him for a faith not seen in all of Israel (Matthew 8:5-13). Paul extends the possibility of salvation to all who do good, even without the law, based on their consciences, while condemning those Jews who hypocritically do not follow the greater revelation they had received (Romans 2:1-28; see esp. 2:6). God judges in the end, and He does so impartially (Romans 2:11).

Christianity holds that “to be saved by Jesus” is not necessarily identical to “knowing all about Jesus” or “hearing the gospel.” But some people are stubborn and rebellious. Many, many religious people will be damned. Jesus talks a lot about that, and states that the “Gentiles” would come in before many of the Chosen People, where the latter were hardhearted, in individual cases. Some atheists are willfully blind or obstinate or rebellious; others disbelieve for many, many reasons (philosophical, psychological, social, moral, cultural, emotional, familial, etc., etc.). Only God knows who will be saved in the end.

Generally (almost always, in fact) people don’t go through the arduous process of testing, proving, reasoning, trying to falsify, with regard to their axioms (upon which grand theories are built). I want to know, in my dialogues, why people accept certain axioms, and try to get them to see that we all have them, and that they are ultimately unprovable. All views require “faith” (in the sense that they are not airtight or demonstrable beyond any possible doubt or disproof). I do believe, however, that atheism becomes either self-defeating or purely fideistic if examined closely enough. Christianity doesn’t do that. Faith itself is neither necessarily self-defeating or fideistic (i.e., entirely devoid of all rational support).

I don’t say the primary atheist problem is intellectual dishonesty; I say it is shoddy thinking and inability to prove their starting assumptions or axioms to an extent at all superior to the theistic and Christian starting assumptions and axioms.

Belief in God is not simply an abstract proposition. If the Christian God exists, we must devote our lives to Him, do everything we do for Him, and tell others about Him. It’s not just an intellectual pursuit to be undertaken in dimly-lit, elegant libraries. It is a way of life; reality itself.

* * * * *

Here is another piece I wrote on 12-12-06; originally entitled, “Can Atheists Be Saved? Are All Atheists Immoral? The Demands of Christian Charity”

* * * 

Here, I was responding to remarks from Theresa Frasch: a former Christian who became an atheist.

* * * * *

Calvinist theology doesn’t allow that an atheist who claims to have once been a Christian ever actually was one. Catholic (and Arminian Protestant) theology does hold that folks can fall away from true faith. I never believed otherwise (thus in my critique of your deconversion I never denied that you were a Christian). I was an Arminian Protestant and am now a Catholic.

The “perseverance” / eternal security position is a minority viewpoint in historic and present-day Christianity. Catholics deny this; so do Orthodox (that’s already some 1.4 billion Christians). So do most pentecostals, Lutherans, Methodists, Anglicans and lots of non-denominational groups. It is mainly the Presbyterians, Reformed, Baptists, and smaller groups related to them theologically, who hold this (greatly unbiblical) position.

Before Protestantism arose in the 16th century, Christians virtually unanimously agreed that falling away was possible.

So argue against it; you are right when you do that, but be sure to note that this is only one position within Christianity, and a minority one at that.

Of course the downside of the opinion that you were a Christian, would be that you, therefore, rejected Christianity and the first hand experience you had with it (and with God), and are now (by definition) an apostate. The ones who claim you never were a Christian cannot really say that. They’d have to say you were a “wolf-in-sheep’s clothing.” So it’s either that or an apostate.

Either way, the future doesn’t look too bright for you, from where we sit.

But my theology and approach tries to adopt a middle way as much as possible: objectively you are an apostate, but subjectively there may be many reasons (mitigating circumstances) why you left (or that influenced your decision) that would cause God to exercise mercy on the last day. That is my hope.

The key would be if you truly knew Christianity was the truth and rejected it. That is very serious. Only God knows if you had and have full and sufficient knowledge or not.

If you didn’t, and didn’t now, there is hope that you may be saved, because you are not directly rejecting something you know to be true, but rather, mistakenly believing a falsehood that you sincerely believe to be true. In Catholic theology, this is a very large factor.

In any event, our job as Christians (of whatever type) is to convince you to embrace Jesus and Christianity again (or for the first time, so say the Calvinists, etc.). That is obviously far better than to be an atheist, from our vantage point.

You know this; it isn’t like I’m saying anything new. But what we believe on this affects how we approach people. Those who think you are unregenerate and never-saved will tend to be (but don’t necessarily have to be) more rude and presumptuous about your soul and ultimate destination.

I make no claims on either your sincerity or the state of your soul or moral character. None whatsoever. I simply critiqued the reasons you gave for your deconversion. I don’t see why that would be insulting to anyone (as it is merely entering into the arena of competing ideas), yet John Loftus blew a gasket when I examined his story.

Go figure, huh?

 

2017-05-19T16:44:08-04:00

ConcentricCircles

[Pixabay / public domain]

Philosophy can be really fun and enlightening, or it can get bogged down in endless “word games”: always trying to define every other word in every sentence, rather than deal in concepts and larger ideas; going round and round like the image above. I’ve always detested these sorts of word games, because I see them as either a cop-out or muddleheaded thinking: the very essence of being unable (or unwilling) to “see the forest for the trees.”

Much of this sort of thing is derived from analytical (or analytic) philosophy.  There are great philosophers who are actually of this school, but manage not to get bogged down in linguistic and semantic tedium. Alvin Plantinga is my favorite philosopher, and widely viewed as the greatest living Christian philosopher. In a wonderful article about him in The New York Times (13 December 2011), Jennifer Schuessler writes:

Mr. Plantinga readily admits that he has no proof that God exists. But he also thinks that doesn’t matter. Belief in God, he argues, is what philosophers call a basic belief: It is no more in need of proof than the belief that the past exists, or that other people have minds, or that one plus one equals two.

“You really can’t sensibly claim theistic belief is irrational without showing it isn’t true,” Mr. Plantinga said. And that, he argues, is simply beyond what science can do.

Plantinga writes in a very accessible style, but with many others in the analytical school, this is not the case. Recently in the combox of my post, Critique of Atheist John W. Loftus’ “Deconversion” Story, a guy who goes by Zaoldyeck (blasted Internet nicknames and anonymity!) showed up. I don’t question his sincerity, and I’m sure he doesn’t think he is merely playing word games or relentlessly dissecting minutiae, but that’s how I see it, from where  I sit.

And I don’t see how that furthers any discussion. It may be a pleasant pastime in the ivory towers of academia, in philosophy departments dominated (as usual) by atheists, but I don’t see that it does much good elsewhere. It may offer the appearance of strength, but when closely analyzed (pun intended) it’s like an onion that one peels down, revealing nothing at the core.

I won’t quote all of Zaoldyeck’s words in the thread. Anyone can read them under the link above if they wish, but only the ones that question definitions and meanings. Then at the end I submit a very simple way to defeat this type of “argument.” His words will be in blue (with key words in red). Line breaks in the text indicate different excerpts.

How exactly did you become a “skeptic of your atheism”? I don’t believe in a god, nor understand how the word itself is defined, I can’t believe in god by virtue of having no context to make sense of the concept represented by that word. So my atheism isn’t something I can be ‘skeptical‘ about until I first have a definition and concept of god that I accept as at least well defined. How can I be skeptical of myself when I say “I don’t know what you mean by the words you are using “?

I really cannot understand how skeptical people can be convinced by the truth claims of a religion. It seems so abjectly strange.

What do you mean by ‘atheistic viewpoint’? . . . being ‘skeptical of the atheistic perspectivemeans what? How do you insert a theistic answer to a set of equations?

I’m seeking to understand what other people mean by their words, including what you mean by ‘the spiritual approach to life’.

I seek to make my point of view explicit. I don’t hide my beliefs, or my rational thought process. I think in terms of ‘dryly defining the most basic words and concepts to dust’, words and concepts get their meaning from context, from definitions and communication. So I inform you when your words don’t make sense to me, such as ‘spiritual adventure and experimentation’, I really don’t know what that means. What the hell is ‘spiritual adventure’? 

I am fine admitting reality, and just tying words and ideas to reality, rather than questioning even basic reality

Or illustrate further what you mean by ‘skeptical of skepticism’, because again, that to me sounds like being ‘skeptical that reality exists’. I don’t go for Pyrrhonian skepticism, I’m fine to establish a starting ground in an ‘objective reality‘. So how much more ‘skeptical‘ could I possibly be? What postulate do I accept which should be reexamined?

When Andrew writes things like “Jesus was the divine son of god”, because I still have no concept of what ‘god’ is, nor what the ‘divine’ is, or how a ‘son’ works with relation to the ‘divine’, I have no concept, no understanding, no basis at all for that sentence. It is incoherent, it means nothing to me, so I don’t know what this ‘belief‘ is in, with or without ‘reasons’, or ‘justified belief‘.

I don’t care about ‘warranted’, or ‘a priori’ versus ‘posteriori’ or anything else if the concepts and words being used aren’t first laid out in a way that I can understand.

Forgetting if the concept is ‘well formed’, that is, ‘possible’, or if the idea or whatever else is true, if the words don’t mean anything, if the words are effectively in another language, how can you ‘believe’ anything about it?

It’s one thing to have difficulty articulating or defending a concept. It’s another thing entirely to have no ability to articulate it at all, where all definitions seem to map to fundamental contradictions, all the while asserting that belief is both in ‘something’ (whatever the hell ‘something’ means in this context) and ‘true’ and ‘rational’.

My epistemology is grounded on very few basic axioms. I accept ‘some objective reality exists’, ‘my senses allow me some access, though occasionally inaccurate measurements, of that objective reality‘, and ‘induction works in objective reality‘.

What does “understanding[ing]” mean?

What does “belief” mean?

What does “rational thought process” mean?

What the hell is a “concept”?

What the hell is “meaning”?

What the hell is “context”?

What the hell is a “definition”?

What the hell is “communication”?

What does “objective reality” mean?

What does “basic reality” mean?

What does “perspective” mean?

What does “postulate” mean?

What the hell is “epistemology”?

What the hell is “skeptical”?

What does “convinced” mean?

What does “articulate” mean?

What does “mean[s]” mean?

What the hell does “sense” mean?

What the hell does “explicit” mean?

What the hell does “ability” mean?

What the hell does “fundamental” mean?

What does “establish” mean?

What does “basis” mean?

What does “difficulty” mean?

What does “defending” mean?

What the hell does “idea[s]” mean?

I asked Zaoldyeck these questions (well, most of ’em; I have added several presently, and added them to my comment in the thread) 21 hours ago. As of yet, I have received no reply, though he was quite vociferous in the thread before I asked my question. Perhaps he has been detained (maybe with his daily dose of three hours with a dictionary).

Readers may be assured that I’ll update this paper with his answers (which I await with great eagerness and anticipation!) and my further counter-replies, if he does answer. I trust that my point has not been lost on most readers . . .

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