2018-09-13T13:33:54-04:00

Daniel Morgan (atheist) responded in my comments boxes, with regard to my critique of John Loftus’ deconversion story. This is my reply. His words will be in blue; my older cited words in green.

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Hi Daniel,

Thanks much for the rational response. It’s good to know that at least one atheist who comments here has his wits about him [see, e.g., John Loftus’ astounding display of hostile non sequiturs, in “response” to my critique] . Y’all are generally a pretty sharp group.

generally this indicates a less-than-stellar foundational Christian teaching

So him being in trouble is worse than you losing faith? 

Losing faith is bad, though I really didn’t do that. I didn’t have any decent religious instruction or any informed faith to lose. I was abysmally ignorant. It was a sort of vacuum, rather than an active rejection. I was only ten years old at the time we stopped going to church. But I was still interested in spiritual things, which is precisely why I became fascinated with the occult.

But my point in context was that John’s account did not suggest to me that he had any good religious instruction or example himself. There’s always exceptions to the rule, but generally that great of a rebellion lends itself to a deficient upbringing as the cause or partial cause. Just ask about the childhood of criminals if you doubt this. Take a survey.

Seems odd to claim, esp given some Biblical characters, whose troubles were always overcome by faith, rather than vice versa.

See my last comment.

Even that won’t suffice to prevent apostasy if there are other deficiencies because the mind is only one aspect of a well-rounded faith.

Do you think that belief is not a completely mental affair?

That’s correct. Grace and faith (and the soul itself) are supernatural in character. The intellectual aspects of Christian faith are only one aspect of it.

Much philosophy can make one go astray as well, if too much skeptical and fallacious philosophy takes hold on one’s brain. But in the end it comes down to God’s grace and whether we accept it and continue to live by it, or reject it.

I can honestly say that this is why I no longer believe – atheological and philosophical arguments.

It seems you have an interesting change-up in views – before you are emphasizing the integral issue of apologia, now you are cautioning those who may want to build defenses not to allow “much philosophy” to “take hold”

Obviously in context I meant “bad philosophy”; not philosophy per se. I love philosophy. But there is plenty of it that starts from false premises and goes from there.

. . . how can a Christian interested in answering doubts and such know which philosophical ideas will “take hold”, and does this “taking hold” indicate that the philosophical arguments are actually strong?

It may or may not. If a person isn’t equipped to answer a bad (but clever and prima facie plausible) philosophical argument, then he is dead meat. There may be excellent Christian replies. But obviously they do little good if one is totally unaware of them.

If you take a relatively ignorant (in things of faith and also other subjects he is, after all, there to learn), inexperienced, idealistic, (usually) herd-mentality young person of 18-21 and throw him into an environment where it seems like the “smart” people (the professor and other smart alecky non-Christian students) mock Christianity and Christian morals, then what would you expect?

He isn’t presented with both sides, generally (I took about eight philosophy courses; I know what goes on, and psychology and sociology are the same). It is oftentimes the best atheist arguments against the worst, or caricatured Christian or theist arguments. Really fair, ain’t it?

So is it any surprise that the Christian student often loses his faith? Usually he had no apologetic background with which to counter this utterly slanted onslaught. This is why I do what I do! Lots of young kids read my stuff. I’m delighted to be able to help them through this ordeal of relentless, almost forced secularization at college.

Your answer seems to waver here as you indicate God’s grace, something that always seems difficult to flesh out from free will. Do you think God’s grace may be lessened or withdrawn if someone is reading “bad” philosophical ideas? 

If one accepts false ideas, that may counter grace, yes. But it’s complex. It would depend on how much one really knows. If he deliberately rejects a God and a Christianity that he truly knew, then the consequences for lack of grace would be worse. But if he is simply ignorant (as I was, up to age 18, in matters of theology), then I think it is a very different situation.

Do you liken such reading to going into a strip club and expecting God to protect you from it?

Any false idea has (somewhat like lust and sex, but on a totally different level) an attraction to one who is predisposed to accept it or too ignorant to counter it, or lacking a superior alternative. It should frighten all of us. Truth is oftentimes difficult to attain in our society.

The philosophical arguments are as “seductive”? Is it perhaps because they are sound and difficult to reply to?

The ideas are received in an environment which is strongly weighted against theism and faith. That’s supremely important to understand and take into consideration. We’re not all calculating rational machines. We accept things usually because everyone around us, or some respected figure does first. Some are “good” arguments as far as they go. This is why we home-school our children: not because we want to insulate them from reality, but because we refuse to leave them open to the distinct possibility of being brainwashed in the overwhelmingly secularized, literally anti-Christian public school system (as I was in the Detroit schools).

By the time they go to college they will be equipped with apologetics and solid Christian philosophy and the ability to think critically and to be able to spot false premises and ideas when they see it, with the knowledge to withstand them when necessary. I hasten to add that I don’e believe every parent must home-school. It’s impossible in some cases. But every Christian parent must provide some Christian counter-weight to the onslaught of secularism and profound anti-Christian bias in the schools.

If the student never sees any alternative, then what would you expect? On my website, I give people the alternatives. They can read both sides and decide for themselves which is more worthy of belief. I don’t just present the Christian view and ignore all the other ones. That’s why I have almost 360 dialogues posted. I’m a totally committed Socratic in method.

There is a reason many Christians lose their faith in college.

I wrote a post on this phenomenon. Do you think it possible that it is because many Christians are insulated from the most serious objections to faith, and evidence that damages their conception thereof? 

That’s part of it; absolutely. The atheist “evidence” damages only insofar as a student is unfamiliar with the best Christian replies. Christians need to know not only how to defend their own belief, but how to refute competing ideas, of varying levels of respectability. Young Christians usually have neither skill when they go to college. And the skeptical or atheist professors (the ones who deliberately — and I would say, unethically — try to undermine the faith of their students) know this full well and cynically exploit it to their advantage.

I certainly do. I think this is a huge reason for it – the whole reason for going to college is to enlarge your borders/perspectives/knowledge, but this is dangerous to any religion. 

It’s dangerous if the situation is abominably unfair and extremely biased to one side only. Very few young people, who want to be accepted by their peers and thought to be intelligent by their professors, can withstand that. It’s a stacked deck.

All religions work via identifying “us/them” and most have a protective effect (purge “them” if they infiltrate “us”).

All belief-systems whatsoever do that, I would contend. Atheists do the same exact thing. Hence, we have blogs with names like, oh, how about Debunking Christianity? LOL It looks like I may soon be banned from commenting there myself, judging by John’s current hysteria and profound hyper-sensitivity to critique. If so, then that is an atheist “purge” of the oddball Christian “them.” I mustn’t be allowed to mess with the status quo of atheist profundity and skepticism by giving cogent answers and rational alternatives to misguided atheist rhetoric (I hope I’m wrong about that, but we’ll see soon enough). I made a point somewhere about how John Loftus puts up a site like that, whose purpose is almost entirely negative. He doesn’t put up a blog called The Joys and Rewards of a Life of Atheism. Christianity at least offers some positive, constructive vision.

lest we get duped by truly stupid, utterly unnecessary dichotomies such as this “dogma vs. philosophy” or “faith vs. reason” claptrap

Responding to this adequately would take a lot of time, 

It was a very general statement.

so I would just quote Aquinas and Gregory the Great: Aquinas said, “If our opponent believes nothing of divine revelation, there is no longer any means of proving the articles of faith by reasoning, but only of answering his objections – if he has any – against faith.” 

Yep; I agree. Apologetics (particularly with atheists) is largely about the removal of “roadblocks” or obstacles. Once those are disposed of, then the apologist can defend Christian doctrines that ought to be accepted in faith, with a rational (and not at all irrational) basis, as far as reason can take one.

He admits this directly after quoting Gregory the Great, “faith has no merit in those things of which human reason brings its own experience.”

St. Thomas Aquinas believes that faith and reason can be totally harmonized. I agree with him. Are you claiming that he is teaching otherwise here? You provide no reference for the sake of consulting context.

Surely you will admit that a careful handling of dogma, philosophy, faith and reason does lead to some dichotomies? Esp the problem of revelation v reason?

I meant irreconcilable dichotomies. There are different kinds of knowledge. The atheist wants to rule out that one can attain knowledge in certain ways (e.g., revelation) and that certain things can happen (miracles), or (often) that anything non-material can exist. But that is not a real dichotomy; it is an artificial one.

in the end, belief-systems must be analyzed of their own accord.

I agree, but we must keep in mind that Xianity has a particular truth claim to evaluate and analyze that involves the indwelling, sanctification, etc., of the believer. One of the few truth claims that we can evaluate just from observation.

No particular reply . . .

The fact that my wife or child may die or that my reputation is ruined, or that I go bankrupt or get a fatal disease, or become handicapped due to an assault has nothing to do with, that I can see, of whether the truth claims of Christianity are acceptable or not.

It certainly depends upon your interpretation of Xianity, doesn’t it? 

Not really. What is it about a person dying or going through problems that disproves Christianity? Nothing. Just like the problem of evil doesn’t disprove that God exists. Atheists tried for centuries and had deluded confidence in that, but now it is in shambles and they are left with far less impressive, highly subjective plausibility arguments.

Some going through such tragedies would point to the covenant nature of Xianity, and question if God was involved in another “bet” with the devil. Some would question the idea that God speaks to them at all, if they spend hours each day “communing” yet had no warning whatsoever that their child had an advanced stage of cancer and that no one knew until it was too late . . . etc., etc. Surely you can see how the question of the relationship of the believer to God falls under this category? 

Yes, but I thought we were talking about how this supposedly is a disproof of Christianity (related to John’s deconversion).

There are many teachings about the “covenant”, and so I would think you could see some falsification potential here.

One particular theology may be proven wrong and that disproves Christianity? Again, you lost me.

People know that’s not possible on merely human power alone. It contradicts everything we know about ourselves.

Ah, so you believe in Allah now?

How so?

He shows poor hermeneutical skills here.

And this is what Steve Hays would say to you. (Steve is a YEC) And AiG, and ICR, and etc., they all have their “experts” who would disagree with your interpretation of Genesis and its exegesis.

Every movement has its fringe groups. YAWN Even atheists!

That’s the view of many of us Christians, and we’re not all losing faith like John. Quite the contrary. I’ve been doing Christian apologetics for 25 years now, and I’ve never been caused to doubt my faith as a result of further study (and I’ve done tons of that). I’ve always had my faith strengthened, in defending the faith, seeing how solid it is on rational grounds, and observing the weakness of attacks upon it.

Up above, you cautioned those who would delve into “much philosophy”. Do you see how one could read your words before, and these words, and see a bit of a contradiction? 

No, because you took that completely out of its context. I meant “bad philosophy.” I have entire web pages on philosophy, and excruciatingly long debates on heavy philosophical issues with atheists and scientists. You have simply misunderstood my meaning, in your zeal to find a contradiction somewhere.

Either you can admit that there are rational grounds for rejecting Christianity or not, 

Conceivably, but I’ve yet to see one in my rounds as an apologist. The Problem of Evil is instructive. For centuries atheists strutted around like poeacocks thinking that was the Knockout Punch. Turns out it wasn’t. I suspect this is the case for all the other currently fashionable arguments too.

but you seem to admit there is some sort of grounds that people do, upon having “too much [secular] education” . . . 

They have grounds for rejecting a caricature for a seemingly plausible view in an atmosphere thoroughly hostile to Christianity. I was saying that in the context of Christian college students losing their faith. Like I said, it’s a “stacked deck” and they don’t have a chance in that situation, if they are inadequately equipped. Belief systems and reasons for adopting them are exceedingly complex. I’ve always thought that: at least as far back as my first philosophy course in 1977 as a freshman in college, if not before.

No, but they could explain how a person would be more open to thoughts of a contrary nature to Christianity, if one is going through a period when he wonders about why God might do thus-and-so, or not do this or that, and if Christians are not being particularly consoling or understanding of his crisis. We don’t develop in a vacuum.

Ah, now we’re back to the catch-all factor: God’s grace.

I don’t see that I was talking all that much about grace in this particular remark. I was talking about hostile environments that one may find oneself in. That can explain loss of faith on a personal, emotional, human level, but that doesn’t disprove Christianity. That was my point.

There is no question that this happens, and that intellectual rationales are only the merest facade for the real or far more important reasons.

Sometimes it does, just as many people merely believe out of tradition, fear or hope, and not serious rational analysis.

Exactly.

One thing to keep in mind though is that freedom does not necessitate atheism. Rejecting Christianity is just that, and it leaves one with quite a number of options for “freedom” if that is all they want – from Buddhism to Krishna to any other Eastern philosophy, then to a sort of open/loose theism or deism, then agnosticism, etc.

Of course.

Everyone wants others to think that they made these big changes in opinion based on complete rationality and objectivity.

I agree – we all want to at least THINK that we’re rational, and appear that way to others.

But any look at ourselves quickly disabuses us of that notion: at least in any pure sense.

That’s a difficult claim to back up. First, looking inward is subjective, definitionally. Now, we all act irrationally at times, and often in retrospect we can even see it and admit it. But to say what you’ve said, bereft of argument, is, well, just another assertion.

Okay; so I am to view you as this perfectly rational, objective thinking machine, immune from all human influences, emotions, biases, pressures of friends and admired ones, family, any number of possible false premises, possible unsavory motivations, pride, jealousy, etc., etc., etc.? I dont think so.

I wonder if he still does, and if not, why atheism would change a respect for the rights of the most defenseless and innocent of human beings? It seems to me that the pro-life position is almost self-evidently right and moral, without the necessity of any theological basis.

I will admit you will find some sympathies with me, esp regarding late-terms. However, in the end, it comes down to a question of value – what makes human what they are, what gives them rights, and what rights does one have over their own body?

A male child is not the same body as his mother, unless you want to argue that females possess male sex organs. Nor is a female baby, for that matter, because she has an entirely different DNA. A human being is the offspring of two other human beings. This ain’t rocket science! It is what it is, genetically, from the moment of conception. A preborn child has rights from simply existing, according to every system of human ethics there is, if it is regarded as a person and a human being (that’s what it boils down to).

There is no good argument that would deny personhood to a preborn human being. What you are now began at the time you were conceived, and cannot possibly have any other logical starting-point. Anything after it is arbitrary; anything before is senseless since the DNA that you possess was not in its present combination. This stuff has to be argued with a graduate student in chemistry? It’s practically self-evident.

I choose to place someone’s legal right to decide whether they will abort a 2-3 month old fetus above any presumed “rights” of something which can rightly be described as less complex, less value-laden in the biological and psychological sense, than a mouse. 

Then you have adopted absurd and monstrous ethics, to regard something you can’t rationally argue is not a human being as of less value than a mouse. This is what atheist (as well as liberal Christian) ethics usually amounts to in practice: animals considered more valuable than human beings. We can’t kill a protected species without penalty, but we can legally slaughter a human being and be patted on the back for it by people like you.

I wanted to know if John changed his mind on abortion, and if so, why? He knows what goes on in abortion, if he used to oppose it.

I think the difficulty in separating this from theology lies in the concept of value – Xians believe the soul itself is an embuement of value.

And atheists believe it is perfectly just to deprive this human being being slaughtered in its mother’s womb of the only life it will ever have. This is the same mentality that ruled the Nazi Holocaust: the notion that there is such a thing as a human life unworthy to be lived, due to inconvenience, or someone else’s lousy science and even more atrocious and selfish ethics.

It did? Not if it doesn’t exist!

He certainly should’ve stated this (and the next statement) otherwise here. The only way to make sense of it, in light of his perspective now, is to inject, “What I thought of as…”

A bad habit of speaking; a remnant of his past fantasies?

But Christianity (rightly understood) is the remedy of that, not its cause.

Hardly. Christianity creates guilt for normal and biological urges and behaviors. It is a source of much guilt where there is no moral argument contrariwise, especially with respect to doubt, sex, self-interest-first behavior, etc.

Not going down that huge rabbit trail . . .

Want a speculation? I’ll bet it’s because there are far fewer “true Christians” than you’d want to believe, and most just go through the motions out of tradition, to keep up appearances, and because of family. Just a speculation.

It depends on how you are defining “Christian” and “true Christian.” The first can be defined doctrinally and discussed in an objective manner. The second: who really is a Christian (really eschatologically saved, or of the elect, etc.), — apart from doctrinal considerations — cannot be determined with any certainty by human beings, only God. But that there are many “wolves in sheep’s clothing” is undeniable. The Bible clearly teaches that.

Does John give far less to charity than he used to, because he is free from guilt?

Speaking for me only, I now see the huge waste in tithing that could be going to real charities –

I wasn’t talking about tithing, but about charity in general. I think it was a good and fair and relevant question, given his rhetoric about guilt. Lots of people give money at church out of guilt or dead, begrudging obligation, not with joy.

places that use >90% of their resources to actually help people, rather than provide infrastructure and etc. for their organizations.

Like pro-life groups? They help real little people . . . to live and be allowed to have a life in the first place.

I see. So the more we can sin, the less guilt we feel? That couldn’t be more opposite of the truth than it is.

Perhaps the better way to see this is, “Why adopt ridiculous notions of perfection that don’t comport with reality, which induces guilt, rather than building an ethical system that actually comes into contact with real life, and living by it, so that you don’t have to deal with guilt?”

Guilt (and the related conscience) is a necessary part of any ethical system and any normal human being. To attempt to get rid of it simply because one has an extreme, distorted sense of guilt (and false attribution of this to God) is as foolish and irrational as trying to get rid of all automobiles because the one you had didn’t run properly.

I’d lay my “sins” on the table next to anyone else’s, any time. I’m a quite transparent kind of guy. People know when I feel bad, and I am a terrible liar.

That’s how I (admittedly, probably cynically) read this. So he has simply gone from overscrupulosity (one extreme, and a distortion of Christianity and discipleship), to another (a marvelously “guilt-free” existence: so he says, anyway). But I don’t believe it. I believe guilt is there, down deep, and knowledge of God is there too (buried and suppressed).

You believe that, and maybe you’re right, although you have no evidence, but you also should consider that people are the products of their environment, and John was a minister for a very very long time. You don’t “shake off” deep-seated convictions overnight, nor the guilt response you’ve held since you were 18. [assuming you’re right]

That’s true, too. But I am saying that he had an incorrect notion of the place and function of guilt as a Christian. He rejected (in that respect) a gross caricature of the proper Christian view and went to the other extreme.

Two considerations:

1) Do we justify Jesus’ words that it is the same to hate someone as to murder? Was this merely a metaphor to point out that bad thoughts are bad? Ditto with adultery/lust?

The thought is that the interior disposition precedes the act and is the essence of the bad act. To murder, one must have a motive, and that motive is immoral and unethical. The hatred is the key to the act.

2) His point is that overscrupulosity can be avoided by saying, “How silly is it to think that we can control our thoughts!”

Of course we can control our thoughts, with God’s help. This is the whole point. I’m not saying it’s easy. It’s a perpetual struggle. But it is possible. When I fall into lust or jealousy or greed or pride or any number of sinful thoughts and feelings, it’s me; it ain’t God doing that. We cultivate and coddle sin when we fall prey to it. The proper response to lust (something I’ve struggled with a lot through the years, as have most men) is to run, as Joseph did from Potiphar’s wife.

That’s the only thing that works. Run! Otherwise we can quickly become consumed by it. But it’s our free will. The response to jealousy is to recognize that we are no better than anyone else under God, and to rejoice if someone else has some blessing we don’t have; not to dwell on ourselves and what we don’t have, etc.

All these things are cultivated by force of habit. Jealousy and slander and malice develop in group gossip situations. It’s obvious how lust is fostered everywhere in our culture. Greed flows from the excessive materialism of our society, and the selfishness that we all must fight constantly. But to just throw in the towel and think that we are at sea with regard to our wills and controlling decadent and immoral habits: that’s asinine and absurd. It’s no more true within an atheist ethical framework than a Christian.

But I have never doubted the fact that God loves me and that He is merciful and all-loving.

Never doubted that, eh? 

That’s what I said. And the Christian believes this is only possible itself by God’s grace, not our own power.

I guess some of us can believe easier than others. I always had doubts, and fears of going to hell, ESP as a devout Christian.

I think a lot of that has to do with our innate temperaments, as I alluded to in my critique. A worrier by nature will obviously worry about matters of faith, or worry that he is good enough, etc. There are many different temperaments. The trick for us is to understand when some objection or feeling we have flows from that rather than the nature or necessity of our belief system.

My temperament is very even keel, easy-going, not moody at all (though I did suffer a serious six-month depression as a one-time event in my life, so I understand that firsthand). It obviously grates upon someone like John, who has a different temperament, and so he has to call me names. But we need to learn to live with and accept (without senseless knee-jerk reactions) human beings who are different from us in gender, age, temperament, culture, politics, religion, worldview, IQ level, class, body type, etc. . . .

Nor do we see even a trace in this in someone like the Apostle Paul, who has a confident, almost boasting faith.

The least of the apostles? The guy who appealed to people he knew in order to make his case that he was authoritative in knowing what God wanted?

The guy who said he was “a Pharisee of the Pharisees” and killed Christians earlier in his life?

Exactly. He was very confident as a Jew and again as a Christian.

Perhaps he just wasn’t as well-endowed (conscience-wise) as some of us, huh?

Before his regeneration, certainly not. But this is what we teach, so no big deal.

So this becomes a major factor. Personal elements that made John feel this excessive guilt and inability to accept God’s mercy and forgiveness, are neither Christianity’s nor God’s fault.

I’ll agree with you on this – guilt and community should have very little to do with our analysis of Christianity.

Good.

Personal elements aren’t determined or caused by God? 

I would say they are largely caused by genes and early upbringing.

So the density of one’s conscience (a cultural and mental phenomenon) has nothing to do with God? How sovereign is your God?

Conscience is only one aspect of temperament of self-aware personhood. We can cultivate conscience just like anything else or gradually cause ourselves to be dead to it. We all have it originally, but it can clearly be abused.

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(originally 10-16-06)

Photo credit: Demolition of the Sydenham Heritage Church (New Zealand) in February 2011 (Bob Hall) [Wikimedia CommonsCreative Commons Attribution-Share Alike 2.0 Generic license]

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2018-08-13T12:41:16-04:00

Taneli Huuskonen asked these on my blog. His words will be in blue.

*****

[M]y own deconversion essentially consisted of finally being able to take seriously the possibility that Christianity was entirely false. Once I stopped mentally recoiling from that idea, I could see how much sense it made. At that point, I didn’t need to do any elaborate reasoning any more, as I’d already been doing it for years as a Christian while trying to find intellectually satisfying answers to all kinds of tough questions about my faith. I’d been reading lots of books on apologetics and always felt dissatisfied, finding the arguments weak at best and outright ridiculous at worst – yes, while being a Christian and very much wanting to get rid of my recurring doubts, but not willing to knowingly compromise my intellectual integrity.

You did at least read and pursue apologetics. I commend you for that. Most who deconvert don’t seem to do so. You have honest difficulties and questions, and I admire the fact that you struggle with them and seek intellectual integrity. We all must do that.

Here are some of the questions I’d been grappling with, just off the top of my head:

Why is there evil in the world? If the answer is something complicated about free will and sin and so, why is there so much suffering in the animal world, and why are there natural disasters?

The problem of evil is the most difficult objection to Christianity, but not at all insurmountable, in my opinion; and there is also a corresponding “problem of good” for the atheist to grapple with. I’ve written a lot on both topics: posts found on my Philosophy & Science and Atheism & Agnosticism web pages.

Why does Jesus say that we will get whatever we ask in prayer, as we obviously don’t?

Because prayer is conditional upon being consistent with God’s will. So if we pray (to use an extreme example) for a difficult neighbor to be struck down and not able to talk or walk, that wouldn’t be in God’s will and God wouldn’t answer it.

1 John 5:14 (RSV) And this is the confidence which we have in him, that if we ask anything according to his will he hears us.

James 4:3 adds: You ask and do not receive, because you ask wrongly, to spend it on your passions.

Even something not immediately immoral or amoral wouldn’t necessarily be in God’s will, because He knows everything and can see where things might lead; thus may refuse some requests. When Jesus says “ask and you shall receive,” etc., it’s in a familiar Hebrew proverbial sense, which means that it is “generally true, but admits of exceptions.”

Why do Matthew’s references to Old Testament prophecies seem so farfetched?

Prophecy is an involved topic. How the NT cites prophecy is a complex sub-topic itself, but often it’s a paraphrase or a “free use” according to the established rules of language and thought in the Hebrew culture of that time.

Why does the historical record of how the Bible was put together look like a totally human affair, and how exactly did God inspire it?

The Bible looks like it was produced by humans because it was! But that doesn’t rule out its also being inspired and guided by God. Inspiration is another huge topic, but it’s not dictation.

If the original manuscripts are the real God’s Word, why didn’t God preserve them?

I imagine that God didn’t preserve the original manuscripts because He generally lets things be, and lets mankind be responsible for them. Atheists often exhibit a certain double standard or unreasonable demand. On the one hand, they demand all kinds of miracles in order to believe in God (like God writing “John 3:16” in the stars and suchlike). On the other hand, when they put on their science hats they act as if miracles are impossible or have never occurred in fact, or are unable to be proven / substantiated. Well, we Christians think miracles are very rare. So this was an instance where God chose not to miraculously preserve the original manuscripts. But He did preserve enough of the Bible to be able to present all of the theology necessary to know in Christianity, for salvation. He preserved it from error enough to accomplish His purposes.

Why is it so difficult to understand the Bible?

I wrote a paper directly on that topic:

Why “Bible Difficulties” Should be Fully Expected

Why are there so many different Christian denominations and sects, with so radically different ideas of what the Bible teaches?

Because Protestantism introduced a new principle of authority or rule of faith, called sola Scriptura, which I think is unbiblical and even illogical, and this false principle brought this sad state of affairs about; whereas the more traditional Christian groups (Catholicism and Orthodoxy) have remained quite unified, for the most part. This is one reason why I became a Catholic in 1990.

How can you tell which one is right?

By comparing its teachings with what the Bible and the Church fathers and apostles taught (apostolic succession). When they all line up, it’s plausible and sensible to believe that that group is the “fullness of the faith” (as we Catholics say Catholicism is).

Why did God order the Israelites to commit genocide?

See:

“How Can God Order the Massacre of Innocents?” (Amalekites, etc.)

God’s Judgment of Humans (Sometimes, Entire Nations)

. . . and explicitly allow slavery?

Very complex topic. See: The Bible, Church History, & Slavery (Resources).

Thanks, but I was telling about my past. I haven’t been struggling with those questions since my deconversion 26 years ago, as they got answered in one fell swoop. Sometimes I read some religious apologetics for fun, but I find it all equally unpersuasive, no matter whether it argues for any flavor of Christianity, Islam, New Age, Scientology, or whatever else I forgot to mention.

ETA: I think the main point of my original comment may have been somewhat unclear. I wanted to say that there are many ex-believers like me, who have spent years doing intellectual counterapologetics while seeking intellectual clarity of their faith, only to come to the conclusion that their faith is false. When that happens, you already know the answer long before you can emotionally accept it, so a description of the climax is likely to sound pretty unintellectual. 

Yes, I readily acknowledged that I appreciated the fact that you read apologetics. So in your case you were unpersuaded. I am equally unpersuaded by the arguments against Christianity. Thus, it would have to be examined more deeply to determine why you were unpersuaded, and what false premises (from our perspective) you adopted, and why, to explain your rejection of all the apologetics arguments, and your unbelief. Atheists believe we are burdened by bad thinking; we feel the same about them.

The main reason I gave some sort of answer to the questions you listed, was to help those who still may be grappling with some of them, and to show that there are good answers and explanations to be had.

***

Photo credit: 3dman_eu (9-27-12) [PixabayCC0 Creative Commons license]

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2018-08-16T14:18:11-04:00

Elzbieta Kraszewski, who was raised Catholic, wrote in one of my comboxes (words in blue henceforth):

The Bible is much more understandable (and actually more relevant) if we view it in light of the authors’ time and culture. Of course they didn’t denounce slavery because, like every known ancient civilization, slavery was a major part of their economy. Saying that God justified capturing, owning, and selling slaves was simply (and obviously) a man-made attempt to enshrine the right to own other human beings into law. We shouldn’t be shocked that Biblical law does not differ significantly from that of other ancient Near Eastern tribes; it is simply a product of them. If Christians, Jews, and Muslims would just acknowledge this fact rather than claim divine guidance, atheists would be much less likely to harp on these issues.

But of course, Christians also believe the Bible is inspired revelation from God. So slavery is one of the difficult issues that arise as a result, because the Bible seems to present it in accepting terms and to not denounce it (or not as much as it should). We’ve worked through that, just like we’ve worked through all of the tough issues concerning the Bible and Christianity, like the problem of evil, etc.

Every viewpoint has problems that have to be worked through. That’s simply “grown-up” thinking and “intellectual reality.” It would be foolish to think that a document as long and complex (and old) as the Bible would not present thorny issues to be grappled with and agonized over.

Your solution is the simplistic and easy one, but it’s not one that orthodox Christians can take.

For further reading, see: “The Bible, Church History, and Slavery (Resources)”.

“Did the Church Ever Support Slavery?” (Steve Weidenkopf, Catholic Answers Magazine, 9-18-17)

I wrote in another paper: “As to the Flood, so what if other cultures mentioned it? We would fully expect that.”

I don’t see how that casts into doubt the Scriptural story [or biblical inspiration]. C. S. Lewis makes a similar argument about how pagan precursors to Christianity were how God planned it, in His providence. Far from being disproofs of Christianity, they confirm it:

What light is really thrown on the truth of falsehood of Christian Theology by the occurrence of similar ideas in Pagan religion? . . . Supposing, for purposes of argument, that Christianity is true; then it could avoid all coincidence with other religions only on the supposition that all other religions are one hundred percent erroneous . . . The truth is that the resemblances tell nothing either for or against the truth of Christian Theology. If you start from the assumption that the Theology is false, the resemblances are quite consistent with that assumption. One would expect creatures of the same sort, faced with the same universe, to make the same false guess more than once. But if you start with the assumption that the Theology is true, the resemblances fit in equally well. Theology, while saying that a special illumination has been vouchsafed to Christians and (earlier) to Jews, also says that there is some divine illumination vouchsafed to all men . . . We should, therefore, expect to find in the imagination of great Pagan teachers and myth makers some glimpse of that theme which we believe to be the very plot of the whole cosmic story — the theme of the incarnation, death, and re-birth. And the difference between the Pagan Christs (Balder, Osiris, etc.) and the Christ Himself is much what we should expect to find. The Pagan stories are all about someone dying and rising, either every year, or else nobody knows where and nobody knows when. The Christian story is about a historical personage, whose execution can be dated pretty accurately, under a named Roman magistrate, and with whom the society that He founded is in a continuous relation down to the present day. It is not the difference between falsehood and truth. It is the difference between a real event on the one hand and dim dreams or premonitions of that same event on the other. (The Weight of Glory, New York: Macmillan / Collier Books, revised and expanded edition, 1980, edited by Walter Hooper, New York: 83-84, from “Is Theology Poetry?”: originally read to the Oxford University Socratic Club on 6 November 1944 and published in The Socratic Digest, vol. 3, 1945)

G. K. Chesterton makes an elaborate argument along these same lines in his Everlasting Man (a marvelous book, and the one that Lewis said was his biggest influence).

Thank you for the civil reply. I know that the discussion on religion can be quite heated, so I appreciate it. From my perspective (of that as someone born and raised in the Catholic Church), it seems that one of the greatest aspects about the Catholic faith which differs from more fundamentalist forms is that it does not take the Bible literally. Yes, some events (Jesus being born of a virgin and rising from the dead) are to be accepted literally, but others may be viewed within the context of the culture of the writers and used as metaphor. For example, we know from multiple branches of science that Noah’s flood did not happen as the Bible says (the entire world was flooded). In the scientific community, this is beyond debate. However, if one considers the prospective of the Biblical writers, their world was flooded because there was a huge flood in the Ancient Near East which destroyed many cities and ravished the area. Using that prospective, one does not have to reject either science or religion; he/she is free to accept both on their own terms. Catholics have embraced evolution, the Big Bang (discovered by a Catholic priest, no less), and blood/organ transplants whereas a fundamentalist reading of the Bible would denounce all of these.

Thanks for your detailed and civil reply as well. I agree with this, and in fact, I understood and believed that the Flood was not universal over thirty years ago when I was a Protestant, after reading The Christian View of Science and Scripture by Bernard Ramm. We believe this not only because science indicates the position, for various reasons, but because the Bible — rightly understood — never required it in the first place. Even the 1913 Catholic Encyclopedia (“Deluge”) stated that the Flood didn’t have to be interpreted as literally universal:

Neither Sacred Scripture nor universal ecclesiastical tradition, nor again scientific considerations, render it advisable to adhere to the opinion that the Flood covered the whole surface of the earth.

I’ve also argued vigorously against young earth creationist flood geology (which presupposes a universal Flood).

Whether something is literal or not in the Bible depends on the literary genre and context. Early Genesis (first eleven chapters), for example, has both literal (a real Adam and Eve and a real fall and original sin) and symbolic elements. The days are not literal, and the trees and the talking snake need not be literal. I recently wrote about the serpent. The choice need not be “totally symbolic / mythical Genesis” vs. “completely literal Genesis, meaning a young earth and no evolution.”

While I certainly appreciate the prospective of those wish to view the Bible solely under the lens of the divine, historical documents (and the Bible is perhaps the greatest one in Western civilization, if not the world) must be viewed in practical terms as to the culture and socio-economic needs of those who wrote them in order to fully understand them. For example: when Paul decided not to enforce Jewish dietary laws and circumcision upon the Gentile population, we can view it in part from his own detailed account as to his belief that Christ’s sacrifice fulfilled that portion of the law and made it no longer necessary. However, we must also be practical and admit that Paul, whose mission in life after his conversion was to attract converts to the faith, most likely knew that few Greeks would clamor to embrace a faith which required cutting delicate body parts and giving up a meat which was a staple in the region. To ignore that obvious point is to ignore the rational.

Once again, you imply that cultural influences in the Bible are somehow logically contrary to inspiration. I don’t see how that follows at all, as I have already argued. Your point about Paul and circumcision is an interesting one, and I think it has some validity. But I could just as easily argue that God in His providence understood the same factors you reference, and so it was decided (with God’s guidance at the Jerusalem Council: Acts 15) that circumcision was no longer required. Christianity has shown itself adaptable to particular cultures, without compromise of principle, to a large degree throughout history.

Thus, I’m not required to deny anything that is rational or a cultural explanation in this respect (or many others), but at the same time I need not deny biblical inspiration or the notion (held in faith) that the whole thing was the “plan” in God’s providence. God, being omniscient, would know that circumcision wouldn’t exactly go over big in non-Jewish cultures; nor would the extensive dietary and ritualistic requirements of the Mosaic law; so it turned out that they weren’t in fact required. If that change hadn’t occurred among early Christians (most of whom were Jewish at first), arguably, Christianity wouldn’t have spread to become the world’s largest religion and the most culturally transformative one.

There is irony, however, in the fact that circumcision is still widely practiced anyway (one in six males worldwide), often for [controversial] medical and not religious reasons.

Slavery, from all appearances, is like the kosher issue. Slaves were needed in the extremely hierarchical ancient Judea and later throughout the Mediterranean world. If early Christians had demanded that all new Christians must release their slaves, few powerful men would have been attracted to the faith and it would, in all likelihood, resulted in far more persecutions of Christians by the Roman authorities due to how disruptive it (abolitionism) would have been to the economy. Rational explanations, rather than diminish the Bible, help the modern reader to understand why the ancients could justify such repugnant acts in the name of God.

You make valid points here as well. I continue to note that slavery in the Bible and throughout Christian history is a complex issue, and that the ideal was always eventual abolition; but Christianity in its infancy was not completely revolutionary, in terms of every cultural and/or economic factor. Thus, Jesus said “render unto Caesar what is Caesar’s” and respected the authority of the Pharisees, even when they were being hypocritical (Matthew 23), and Paul respected the Jewish high priest’s authority during his trial and said that the government (then led by persecuting monsters like Nero) was the agent of God, and to be obeyed as such (Romans 13).

If it’s difficult to understand how slavery was so widely tolerated and practiced in the ancient world, I understand that by analogy to how we Americans treated Native Americans: attempting to virtually wipe them out by genocide, and how we maintained slavery till 1865, and continuing abominable treatment of black people until very recently, when our society has finally, for the most part, rejected racism, legally and culturally.

And now, of course, most of the western world has accepted legal abortion. We look down our noses at those who had the gall to believe that one human being could own another and keep them in bondage, while we — in our “enlightened” and “progressive” wisdom — believe that every mother owns the child in her womb and can kill him or her at will. That’s fine and dandy, yet we condemn Christians in past ages for having a blind spot regarding slavery.

Thus, the more things “change” the more they stay the same. It’s easily explained by the Christian doctrine of original sin and the human tendency towards actual sin (concupiscence). The things that human beings do are so irrational and so wicked, that the Christian explanation of their origin makes perfect sense and is entirely in accord with observation. Someone said that original sin is the one doctrine of Christianity that is so utterly obvious, it needs no defense.

Thanks again for your reply.

***

Hello, Dave. Thank you again for the very detailed response. Of course, I would be thrilled to be included in your blog paper. Now to your points:

1) I was truly shocked to hear that the Bible did not necessarily present the flood as global or universal. Thank you for sharing this. My sons and nephews, like many Millennials, express that their number one reason for rejecting religion (and Christianity in particular) is how so much of the Bible contradicts our modern knowledge of the world achieved via science, and Noah’s ark is always one of the top three unbelievable stories cited. I will pass on your links and see if it alters their understanding a bit.

I think that one of the issues with a literal Adam and Eve is that, if one accepts evolution, a new species doesn’t simply come about with only two new members as a literal reading of Genesis suggests. Knowing what we know of Neanderthals and the incredibly strong evidence that, not only did we interbreed, but they have also been reclassified as a sub-species to Homo sapiens, I wonder how they fit into the whole Adam and Eve story. Do you think that there is some Biblical character who could have been a Neanderthal/Neanderthal hybrid? I’ve heard theories that in the Epic of Gilgamesh, there is a character who is described as being more akin to beasts in nature but to man in form, and this may be an allusion to the Neanderthals.

I suppose my struggle with taking Adam and Eve as more than an allegory revolves around the soul and species issue. The Bible appears to make it clear that only humans have souls, but one wonders whether the earlier hominids did as well. There were beings like the Neanderthal who were so closely related that we almost certainly interbred but were they human enough for a soul? Since evolution is so gradual, did the soul evolve as well or were humans only given souls once God deemed that they had evolved “enough”? I’ve read Francis Collins’ concept of Biologos and it never truly clarifies this issue. I completely understand why some literal Adam and Eve story is so important to the Bible: without their misdeed, there is no Original Sin, and no reason for Jesus to die on the cross. It just is incredibly difficult reconciling our understanding of how species come into existence with the story of Genesis.

As to Adam and Eve, we believe that God supernaturally put rational souls into them (as we believe He does with every new conceived human being), and made them in His image. That is the crucial dividing line, but it wasn’t biological; it was supernatural / immaterial. Thus, Adam and Eve could have come from preexisting hominid stock. Here are two articles (one in two parts) by Catholic philosophers that discuss this genetic aspect [one / two / three].

2) I can completely understand why a total symbolic approach to the Bible (a large Jordan Peterson or Joseph Campbell) essentially neuters its importance as a religious document, especially as one that acts as a guide to salvation. Years ago, a professor had recommended the works of Bishop Shelby Spong to me, and I found it bizarre that anyone would embrace Spong’s message. Essentially, he ascribed to the same philosophy as Jefferson and gutted the Gospels of any Divinity claims, virgin birth, and literal resurrection. I have to agree with St Paul: without the resurrection, there is truly no point to the faith. I fully agree with you that there are certain points in the Bible and Christianity which define one’s belief as Christian, the aforementioned chief amongst them. Allegories are fascinating, but no one is going to dedicate his life or possibly die for belief in them. That’s the downside to the Spong/Peterson/Campbell school of Biblical reading.

To be honest, I think that both sides (the Christian and the atheist) have much to learn in debates with each other. For example, I don’t believe that most atheists truly give the cosmological argument a fair hearing. In the days of Bertrand Russell, it made sense to debates whether the universe had always existed and had no beginning, hence no need for a creator. We now know it certainly did beginning and once there was no matter in our universe. The force which created/formed time and space must be, by its very nature, outside of time and space, hence the concept of God. To argue as many do, “Well, what created God?” seems to miss the entire notion of this being existing outside of time and space, therefore needing no creation.

Bible interpretation comes down to each text, its context, the literary genre used, the cultural milieu, linguistic aspects, and the author’s intent (as best we can determine it). The Bible has all sorts of literature. The liberal theological impulse is to spiritualize away or make symbolic everything they are inclined to reject as supposedly “antiquated.” That’s wrong, because it is arbitrary and (I would contend) doesn’t take the Bible seriously as inspired revelation.

Likewise, the opposite fundamentalist error is to interpret with a wooden literalism, almost always (except when it comes to John 6 and Jesus talking about His body; i.e., transubstantiation), and without regard to the other factors above.

The orthodox, sensible, “literary” way is to interpret is to examine each passage to determine the genre, cross-reference, and proceed from there. It’s not either/or.

Likewise, I wish that more Christians denounced the obviously disproved young earth theories with their “museums” featuring Adam riding on a dinosaur. I appreciate that you do and wish that more people would read Christian rebuttals to this nonsense, but Ken Ham and company are usually the first people used to cast all religion as the purview of the ignorant and the foolish.

I have not noticed any particular love among most of the people I know (several thousand people online) for young-earth creationism. That view is confined to a small minority of (mostly) fundamentalist, sectarian-type Protestants and a few reactionary Catholics (some of whom espouse geocentrism also). Even if the number is larger than what has been my impression, these folks are marginalized in larger Christianity and easily able to be dismissed.

3) I know I’ve already taken quite a bit of your time, so I’ll attempt to be briefer here. I found your concept that perhaps God Himself influenced Paul into rethinking the adherence to the Jewish law in order to achieve the end goal of converting the Gentiles to be fascinating to say the least. That is something to consider. However, that begs the question of why require such laws in the first place? Maybe the Philistines and Ammonites would have been more likely to convert to Judaism had it begun as a faith devoted to the Jewish God but without the requirements of circumcision and kosher diets. I’ve heard Bart Ehrman’s take that Paul saw those who pushed such requirements upon Gentile Christians as rejecting the salvation made by Christ’s sacrifice in favor of self-salvation via the Law and harshly condemned them. Either way, it’s a fascinating debate. In addition, Ehrman posits that one of the main reasons why Paul does not condemn slavery and demand that Christians free their slaves is because he is certain that Jesus is due to return within Paul’s lifetime. Therefore, one’s status within the community is of no matter since all will be free in the Kingdom of Heaven. This apocalyptic vision colors much of Paul’s message and almost certainly dissuaded him from being more revolutionary in worldly affairs. Understandably, if one truly believes that he only has a brief time to save souls for eternity, he will focus on spiritual matters rather than secular. Still, it is pitiful that these verses have been used to justify such cruelty for centuries.

As for why God required the Mosaic Law, I’m afraid that is above my pay grade. As a generality, Catholics believe that God had to be strict in the early part of salvation history, in order to “get the message across.” As it is, the ancient Jews continually drifted into idolatry and away from God, even given the strictness of their laws (which sort of proves that point, I think).

Paul’s relation to the Law (and Law / grace in general) is another huge issue, and I will have to defer to Pauline scholars and experts on the relation between Judaism and Christianity. I have dealt quite a bit in a more general way with the latter topic, though.

I have three articles critiquing Ehrman listed in one of my papers:

Debate: Is There Historical Evidence for the Resurrection of Jesus? (William Lane Craig vs. Bart Ehrman, March 2006)

Disunity and Diversity: The Biblical Theology of Bart Ehrman (Josh Chatraw, 2011)

Review Article of Misquoting Jesus by Bart Ehrman (Daniel B. Wallace, 2006)

Lastly, I do wonder how future generations will view the practice of abortion, especially as it has been presented as a positive thing by the extreme Left. Whatever someone’s views on the matter, science does show that the fetus is alive, is human, and does have separate and distinct DNA from the mother. There is no other medical procedure in which someone is allowed to end the life of someone else without his/her consent. I find the various comedians who jest about it and ghouls like Gloria Steinem who proclaim that “If men could get pregnant, abortion would be a sacrament” to be truly foul and just demeaning to human life. I honestly don’t know what the solution is to this problem, but it seems that society has become so coarse and just uncaring. Incredibly sad.

I’m very glad to see that we agree about abortion.

Thanks again for reading and sorry to take so much of your time. Please know that I own one of your books (The Catholic Verses: 95 Bible Passages That Confound Protestants [link] ) and regularly use it when arguing why certain Catholic traditions are far more Biblical than most people know. Excellent work.

It’s been a great pleasure dialoguing with you, and I hope you will keep hanging around my site! Thanks so much for buying that book of mine and even mentioning it to others, too!

God bless,

Dave

***

Photo credit: Ishtar Gate from ancient Babylon, Pergamon Museum, Berlin. Photograph by Rictor Norton & David Allen (5-17-06) [Flickr / CC BY 2.0 license]

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2018-07-24T16:10:47-04:00

This is a follow-up to “Predestination and Salvation: Q & A with an Atheist”. Words of atheist Grimlock will be in blue.

*****

[replying to my answers to his #1 and #2 questions in the previous exchange] If I’ve understood it correctly, your position is something like this: God created everything, including free beings. God also knows whether a being will end up in Hell, yet still created everything so that those beings would exist.

Yet what I struggle with is how this differs in any significant ways from God predestines someone to Hell. In either case God knowingly creates beings that ends up in eternal suffering.

  1. I know that the sun will come up tomorrow.
  2. I know that tomorrow, someone will die in a car accident, or of cancer.
  3. I know that my daughter will text her friends tomorrow.
  4. I know that, tomorrow, Hillary Clinton will offer Reason #41,390 for why she lost the 2016 US presidential election. Poor thing . . .
  5. I know that our beloved guinea pig will pee in her cage tomorrow.

*

It doesn’t follow from any of this [virtually certain] “knowledge,” that I caused any of these five things. You seem to be confusing knowledge with causation. God knowing that someone is to wind up in hell doesn’t mean that He caused it (let alone predestined it from all eternity).

One could argue, I guess, that in the case of your view, God merely creates a system which has regularities that unfortunately has the consequence of some people ended up in Hell.

Yes: the cause of that (according to the Bible, and Catholic and Orthodox and non-Calvinist Protestant theology and philosophy) is the free will choices of human beings to accept God and His grace and mercy for salvation, or, conversely, to reject same.

Whereas on the Calvinistic view (which I hope I’m not misrepresenting too badly here), God knowingly focuses on individuals and decides that these people are going to Hell. This seems plausible when applied to, for instance, human politics, but the distinction seems irrelevant when considering an omnipotent and omniscient God. This is because such a God would inevitably know which specific individuals are the “victims” in a certain system. Is there something I’m missing?

Calvinists argue that the whole human race fell and are in rebellion against God. This is original sin, and other Christians fully agree, so far (though the Calvinist degree of fallenness is higher: what is called total depravity). Calvinists then contend that God in His mercy selects from among human beings so many to predestine from all eternity to heaven (the elect), and “passes over” the rest. But they say this is just because we all deserve to go to hell. Why He does this remains unexplained, and is regarded as a deep mystery and troubling: but not troubling enough to cause a questioning of the hideous and false and unbiblical doctrine of “double predestination.”

The rest of us Christians deny this scenario as outrageous and contrary to the merciful, loving, and just nature of God and also human free will. Blessedly, it has always been a minority view among the set of all Christians combined.

[replying to my answer to his #3 question] This seems to me to lead rather straight to a proposition: There are some people who go to Hell in some possible worlds, but not in others. Meaning that I find it highly probable (within this framework) to assume that there are some people who in our world behaves in such a way as to end up in Hell, but in at least one other possible world ends up in Heaven.

First of all, these are only hypotheticals, so they are not compelling. But it’s fun to think about. In theology, we have to primarily deal with the actual world we are in. Catholics (and most other Christians) believe that God gives every person enough knowledge and opportunity to be saved (by His free grace and mercy), and that no one who is not saved has any “case” against God of unfairness on His part.

While this strikes me as rather unfair, there is, I think, a more subtle challenge. Let’s say that A goes to Heaven/Hell in our world, and Hell/Heaven in another possible world. But A has the same essential characteristics in all worlds (otherwise A wouldn’t be A), including having free will.

He or she might very well not have the same characteristics (even essential ones), since environment plays a huge role in everyone’s development, and that would be different in another world, likely leading to differences in the theoretical Person A. So, for example, if I had been raised in your Norway, I’d likely be significantly different than what I am. I might actually be an atheist like you, because Norway is more secular, and “we are what we eat”. Etc. ad infinitum . . .

Yet it seems to follow that there are factors not related to the free will that determined whether A goes to Heaven or Hell. These factors could be lots of stuff, such as cultural upbringing and whatnot. But common to all of these factors? God knows about them. God created the circumstances external to A’s free will in such a way that lead to Heaven or Hell. But in this case, A’s circumstances overruled his free will and made A end up in Heaven or Hell.

No, circumstances did not (in the final analysis) “make” A end up in either heaven or hell (wherever it is that he or she did wind up), though they may make it relatively easier or harder to end up wherever. I already answered that by saying that “God [in His overruling providence] gives every person enough knowledge and opportunity to be saved.” That’s what we believe. Every person possesses enough knowledge to decide and to have been given a “fair chance.”

Now if in fact God didn’t do (or bring about) that, I think you would have a point, and it would seem quite unjust and unfair and unequal, and I myself would be quite troubled about it, too. This is one of many reasons why I was never a Calvinist: besides simply not finding those doctrines in the Bible. And of course I have many papers tackling Calvinism, too, and three books [one / two / three].

But as you noted in response to Q6.1, then God is morally responsible for the choice, and A did not deserve to end up in Heaven or Hell.

But you are not taking into account my qualifiers, that I also provided (anticipating where you were going with this line of reasoning): “He could [overrule human free will], but not in the matter of final (“eschatological”) salvation. That is ultimately their own choice (though His grace is always absolutely required for them to choose Him). . . . He would do so for a benevolent purpose, in His sovereignty and providence.” [my bolding added now]

Now the reasoning there is a bit convoluted. Let me put in it a pseudo-formal format.

1. In every possible world there are people who go to Heaven/Hell, who go to the other alternative in a possible world.

You didn’t ask me the question in those terms, but rather, if there are people who always go to heaven in all possible worlds. Therefore, I didn’t address this scenario. I basically now have in some of my answers above. You are sort of switching horses in mid-stream here; apparently trying to “trap” me. That will be unsuccessful. :-)

2. The being A is such a being as defined in (1) and has some set of essential characteristics in every possible world, making A be A and not some other being. One of these characteristics is having free will.
3. As A ends up in either Heaven or Hell in different possible worlds, and the free will is the same, this result is due to circumstances external to A’s control (e.g. cultural upbringing). Not free will.
4. God is the ultimate source and cause of the circumstances external to A’s control.
5. God is morally responsible for whether A ends up in Heaven or Hell. 
6. A did not (morally) deserve to end up in Heaven or Hell in either world. Yet he did.

Near as I can tell, both 3 and 5/6 is rather awkward for most Christian theists. But I don’t see any obvious or immediate flaws in the reasoning. But then again, spotting flaws in one’s own reasoning is tricky, so perhaps someone can help me out.

The flaw is as I have already explained. You don’t take into account God’s benevolent mercy, desire for the salvation of all (stifled by the human free will that prevents that) or His omnipotence, sovereignty and providence). He simply brings about circumstances causing every human being to know enough to be saved, in any possible world (for instance, bringing people along our path who will share the Good News of the Gospel). Or is your theoretical God in other worlds of a different nature?

Atheists generally don’t want to talk much about God’s providence because they generally don’t comprehend it. It’s a very complex thing to grasp: akin to predestination itself.

God is not morally responsible or unjust or some sort of capricious tyrant for anyone ending up in hell, because they chose it. And He gave them enough knowledge to know the way to salvation and the undesirability (to put it very mildly) of the alternative.

It’s like someone saying, “here is a million dollars for you. All you have to do is come and claim it.” The skeptic may resist that for several possible reasons:

1. He may think it is altogether a lie and con job.

2. He may think there are strings attached, so that it becomes undesirable.

3. He may think it is an illusion (he is drunk or hallucinating).

So he rejects it. Is the cause of his declining to take the money the person offering it? No; it’s the man’s who refused.

People who reject God and salvation are like prisoners who reject a pardon of a government official who has the power to pardon. All they have to do is sign the pardon decree and walk out free, but they like it better there. For some reason (who knows what?) they think the outside world is inferior to prison. Or they think more danger awaits them there than in prison. So they refuse. Multiply that by a trillion, and that is the stupidity and folly and senselessness of human beings rejecting God’s free offer of salvation.

[replying to my answer to his #5 question] Curious. Let’s see…

(i) In any given possible world, W, there can be the following sets of people: (Also other sets, but these are the relevant ones.)
H^: Beings that end up in Heaven in W.
H_: Beings that end up in Hell in every possible world
H*: Beings that end up in Hell in W, but not every other possible world.

In that case, God could do the following: In a given world W, instantiate H^, and replace H_ and H* with philosophical zombies.

Then rinse and repeat for every possible world, until every possible being that can go to Heaven has been instantiated. At which point, no beings has ever been condemned to eternal suffering, and every one who could go to Heaven, has made such a choice.

I see some options here. One is that I’m wrong about something in the reasoning above. Another is that I’m right, and everyone who doesn’t end up in Heaven from our world is in fact a philosophical zombie. A third option is that this is a fun little argument ad absurdum (in the sense of an absurd but not contradictory conclusion).

(Credit where credit is due: The core of this idea can be traced back to Justin Schieber.)

A fourth option is that it is a stupid and irrelevant supposed reductio ad absurdum. I deny that God would create philosophical zombies, which masquerade as human beings. These are the sorts of games that atheist philosophers get into.

The problem is that you failed to take into account God’s nature and particularly His providence. You have several false premises, leading inexorably to false conclusions, and you ignore other necessary and relevant premises. It’s not just one monolithic CAVSE that saves anyone who is saved (GOD’s all-powerful WILL that ignores human will and choice), but thousands of individual opportunities for he or she to discover the truths and information necessary for salvation. God arranges those in His providence, just as He has created the marvels of nature that we see.

Atheists are so preoccupied with looking at the odd, bizarre (untrue) aspects of predestination (as held by Calvinists) that they fail to see that all Christians agree that God predestines those who are saved. He brings about circumstances and then those who are saved freely choose to cooperate with Him (which is a paradox and a mystery but not a contradiction: we cooperate freely with what He ultimately makes possible and enables). You want to major on the “bad news” based on false doctrines in Calvinism: a minority position amidst a much larger Christianity, and ignore the “good news.”

[replying to my answer to his #4.2 question] I assume you made the connection from this question to Plantinga’s Free Will defense (FWD),

Not at all (though I love Plantinga and am presently reading his masterpiece, Warranted Christian Belief). I had more in mind (if anyone) C. S. Lewis, who has dealt with the question of possible extraterrestrials and other worlds.

but if any readers are not familiar, here’s a (really, really) quick recap.

Plantinga’s FWD relies on the concept of “transworld depravity”. This can be interpreted in (at least) two possible ways. One is that a being is transworld depraved if in every possible world, that being would of their own free will do something wrong. The other interpretation (which I think is the “correct” interpretation) is a bit more convoluted (but Ex-Apologist has a nice summary here, though the article is probably somewhat out of date. No matter. My point is that on the interpretation I mentioned above seems to clash with Catholicism.

I’ve seen nothing in your analysis so far that overthrows any aspect of Catholicism or its soteriology (doctrine of salvation) in particular.

How so? Consider the general case in the Q&A above: It seems to concede that it is indeed possible for some beings, in some possible worlds, to not be transworld depraved, as there are some worlds where they don’t do wrong. Specifically, it also means that Mary never did wrong.

Thus is seems to me that Catholicism can’t go with that interpretation of Plantinga’s FWD. (Which might not bad such a huge loss, as I don’t think that’s the best interpretation.)

The free will defense is devoted to overcoming the problem of evil, not to deal with the deep mysteries and “problems” of predestination and free will. The free will is necessary to defeat the defeater of the problem of evil. But the argument is not primarily dealing with the nature of free will. It assumes it.

Yes, there are conceivable worlds where human beings decided not to rebel and sin, just as there is indeed in our present world created beings who decided to never sin and rebel (the unfallen angels, or all present angels, as the fallen ones are now known as demons). Then there wold be no need for salvation, no need for Jesus to come suffer and die for our sins, and “no hell below us” (as John Lennon happily sang about in the anti-religious song, Imagine).

Catholics refer to Mary as “the second Eve” because she reversed Eve’s rebellion. Eve said no to God at the dawn of the human race. Mary said yes at the Annunciation.

But what all these other real or hypothetical beings did is irrelevant to each of us. We have to make our own choice for or against God. We will all have enough information to do so by the time we die. God will see to that. Thus if we go to hell, it’ll be our fault, not His. We like to play games with philosophy and with God: clever ways to avoid the obvious and our duty as created human beings, made to serve and love God.

God is interested in concrete action. That’s why, in Scripture, when it comes time for judgment, all God talks about is good works: what have we done? We’re saved by grace through faith, but we also must necessarily do things. “Faith without works is dead”: as it says in the book of James.

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Photo credit: “Sacred Geometry” fractal, by spirit111 (October 2017) [Pixabay / CC0 Creative Commons license]

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2018-07-24T11:54:20-04:00

Grimlock (a Norwegian) is a regular (and rather inquisitive and provocative) contributor on my blog. He was responding underneath my paper, “Do Catholics Believe in Predestination? Yes! But . . .” His words will be in blue.

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Not finding this very intuitive to grasp, so I’ve got some questions to clarify. I tried to make them yes/no questions. Let me know if any of the questions need to be clarified.

1. Does God know before a person is created whether that person will go to Heaven or Hell?

Yes (knowing everything and being outside of time).

2. Does God create someone intending for that person to go to Heaven or Hell?

He desires that none perish, so He wants everyone to go to heaven, but He knows that because of the free will He chose to allow human beings to have, a portion will reject Him and His grace and choose to spend hell in eternity without Him. C. S. Lewis famously stated that “the doors of hell are locked on the inside.”

It’s in Calvinist Christianity (not Catholicism or even the vast majority of Protestant theologies) that God actually predestines the damned from all eternity to hell. Some say this was determined “logically” even before the fall of man (supralapsarianism); others that it was logically after the fall: taking it into consideration (infralapsarianism). The great majority of Calvinists today are infralapsarians, but I have argued that John Calvin and the initial Calvinists were supralapsarians.

3. [Are] there people in our world that end up in Hell who would go to Hell in every possible world in which they are instantiated?

I have no way of knowing that for sure, but it seems plausible to me that there are such people (rebels to the end and so damned in all possible worlds which are not universalistic [all being saved in the end] ).

4. Are there people in our world that end up in Heaven in any possible world in which they are instantiated?

I don’t know, but again it seems plausible that at least some people inclined to follow God in this world would do so in all worlds, and thus be saved in the end.

4.2 Are there people in our world that would always freely choose to do the right thing in some possible world? (And so no matter how high the bar, they would always end up in Heaven.)

This is a little different; asking if sinlessness is possible. It’s always possible but rarely attained. Such is our deep-seated rebellion against God. Catholics believe that Mary was sinless, and all Christians believe that Adam and Eve were created good and were sinless until they decided to disobey God. Theoretically then, it is quite conceivable and possible to envision another world where the original created people never rebelled and never sinned, and would as a result blissfully live with God for eternity (with hell not even able to be conceived). This would include the category of angels, who also chose unanimously to not rebel (i.e., no Lucifer / Satan figure).

5. From the discussions about Adam and Eve I suspect the answer is yes: can there be such a thing as a philosophical zombie – i.e. a being indistinguishable from the outside to a human, but without a soul?

Yes. If evolution is how God created, then there would be thousands, perhaps millions of such creatures prior to Adam and Eve: in whom God placed a rational soul: making them in His own image.

6. Has it or will it at some point in time happen that God overrules someone’s free will?

He could, but not in the matter of final (“eschatological”) salvation. That is ultimately their own choice (though His grace is always absolutely required for them to choose Him).

6.1 If yes, who bears the moral responsibility for those actions where God overruled someone?

God. He would do so for a benevolent purpose, in His sovereignty and providence.

I don’t expect you to agree with or fully comprehend all or most of these answers, but so it goes with atheists and Christians trying to explain our views to them.

Maybe you will, though. Why don’t you pleasantly surprise me! :-)

I should add, though, that questions of predestination and free will are almost universally considered by Christian thinkers to be among the most difficult in all of theology (up there with the problem of evil).

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Photo credit: Image by kalhh (12-14-16): an obvious take-off of Michelangelo [PixabayCC0 Creative Commons license]

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2018-06-28T18:29:04-04:00

Follow-up to Part I. Words of Anthrotheist will be in blue.

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“To the contrary, there is a unified set of moral principles common to all societies at all times.”

The example given (Lewis) basically seems to boil down to: don’t murder, don’t steal, don’t break vows (marriage or otherwise), don’t lie, respect authority, and take care of the sick, the elderly, and children. I think it would be difficult to find a stable, enduring society without these basic behaviors encoded in their morality.

Yep. That’s what we would expect (with differences in particulars and  details), and that’s what we indeed find.

Instead, if the Christian God is the one true god, why don’t more societies around the world and through time have rules like, “Have only one God”, “Don’t use God’s name the wrong way”, or “Keep one day of the week holy”?

As to the first thing: because there is also falsehood widely promulgated, including polytheism or atheism. So one can see some trends in agreement, but also other due to all the usual reasons that human beings believe in any falsehoods. Thus, the common ground is religiosity, but not in all particulars. The second and third are more tied to actual revelation in Holy Scripture, so that those unfamiliar with it wouldn’t know of those things.

Those are not strictly necessary for any society to be stable, are particular to Christianity, and as far as I am aware are pretty much entirely unseen outside of Abrahamic religions.

Yes, because the Abrahamic religions are monotheistic, which included setting aside one day of the week for a focus on worship.

In fact these consistent requirements for human societies, and vast variations in the less essential moral traditions, are exactly what I would expect to find in a world where every culture needed to survive; but where none of them shared any particular revelation of the universe at large.

They differ in aspects having to do with revelation and inspired holy books. Otherwise, they share a lot in common.  This is exactly what I would expect to find. But I don’t think the shared moral sense would be there without a God to ground it. We don’t have a very good idea what a world with no God would be like: the abject horror, hopelessness, and meaningless of it, since the world we live in does include God. I think that’s one reason why hell is so horrible, because hell is a world without God.

As for the problem of evil; from what I can tell, it boils down to me saying, “I makes no sense to me at all why a perfect God would set things up this way or allow them to continue”, to which you naturally respond, “If you were as perfect (smart, good, eternal, etc.) as God it would make sense to you, but since you are not it doesn’t.”

That’s a big part of the response, since if such a God exists, obviously, He would be infinitely wiser than we are, and we would fully expect to not understand many things that He does or allows. But that’s not all of it. We also provide plenty of suggested scenarios and reasons as to why God would allow evil, or the amount of it that we observe.

I feel like such a response is an appeal to a perfect solution: we can never know the mind of a perfect God because we can never be perfect, so therefore we can never question anything about how God made the universe or how he oversees it now.

The Bible doesn’t tell us to blindly accept, but to question and to understand with reason as well as faith. I don’t think one atheist in a hundred understands this, so repetition is the best teacher.

It’s a conversational dead end. If that isn’t your response to such challenges, I apologize and look forward to being corrected (though responses like, “What He thinks is “unnecessary” and what you do may be two very different things.” points me in this direction).

As I said, I have dealt with the problem of evil many times, so I am doing what you suggest (see my Philosophy web page): so have hundreds of other Christian apologists and philosophers of religion. Most agree with me that it is the most difficult problem that Christians need to try to explain to nonbelievers.

As for the problem of good, the issue seems to be, “Nobody is sure to be punished for their evil or rewarded for their goodness without an afterlife, which should be a terrible and disturbing thought.” Agreed. It is terrible and disturbing; it is also no coincidence that many atheists are progressives, striving to improve the world as it is now exactly because we believe that this is the only time and place where wrongs can be righted and rights can be elevated. I can’t really see the notion of justice-after-death being useful for anything but wishful thinking (which isn’t necessarily useless or dishonest) or rationalizing behaviors like forced conversions (which I find necessarily are monstrous).

Which is it? First you say you agree that no justice after death for Hitler et al “is terrible and disturbing” then you say such a view isn’t “useful for anything but wishful thinking.” It all depends whether there is  god to administer such justice. But I think that universe makes much more sense, and I think all the evidence points to it being the actual state of affairs..

Regarding the ‘atheist worshiping atoms/time’ vs ‘theists not really believing’ analogy, I admit that I regret pulling the ‘cancer card’. Normally, I try to avoid using examples like that due to the emotional impact involved, which does nothing for my argument and usually sours the conversation. It seemed to spiral this conversation downward a bit, and for that I am sorry.

I appreciate your gracious consideration but I have no problem with it. I agree that it did nothing for your argument. It also gave me the opportunity to address one of my pet peeves: blaming God for what is clearly largely human fault and blame. So in my opinion it was a double gain for my position.

Back to the point, I think your analogy overstates the atheist’s position to the point of it being inaccurate. Theism invariably involves agency and reverence (otherwise it would be deism wouldn’t it?); atheists’ views on time and matter is causal and without expectations of the presence of intent, and is explanatory and not reverential (though the contemplation of deep time can easily inspire awe and wonder). The best that an atheist is likely to grant is some type of deism, where something put the universe into motion and has allowed it to play out ever since; that doesn’t seem to be what you are characterizing by your analogy.

Your problem remains: how to explain that matter has all this amazing capability: from whence did that come? No one has answered it yet, to my knowledge, and that includes you (thanks for yet another verification). And as long as that remains the case, it’s just as plausible and reasonable to posit a God Whop created the potentialities and marvels that we see in the universe.

The final two points I see are where theism would not be accused of invoking the “God of the gaps”, and the trust that God is not a malevolent tyrant by whom a person could unwittingly find themselves cursed. The second point is perhaps simpler for me: unlike the theist who — after rejecting all presentations of God except one — can accept their one belief as truth, I am an atheist who has rejected all presentations of God, so once I begin to contemplate God’s nature I am faced with any of the possibilities of God that exist in the world; and not all of those Gods are so nice (arguably even the one found in the Old Testament!).

I don’t think you properly understand the nature of this God. If you did, perhaps you would reconsider that He exists, because your mistaken belief that He is something that He is not appears to play a role in your rejecting Him, or His existence.

As for the “God of the gaps” issue, it seems to me to come down to saying, “I don’t know, therefore God.”

Some people do that, and I agree; it’s inadequate. What more educated, apologist-types like me are saying is, rather: “Since science has no explanation whatever for things like the origin of life, the cause of the Big Bang, origin of DNA, and consciousness (let alone plausible step-by-step Neo-Darwinian explanations of the alleged evolutionary progression), it is as at least as (if not much more) rational and plausible to believe that God caused these things, as to think that matter alone did.”

That’s not God of the gaps; it’s simply a rejection of tunnel vision materialism and incorporation of the theistic arguments proposed by intelligent philosophers for at least 2500 years now. I just went through a runaround with a rather consdescending agnostic who held to a foolish “science-only” view of reality (scientism). He was a physicist. I asked him how much philosophy he took in college. It turns out that he took none whatsoever. I had five philosophy courses, including philosophy of science, and of space and time. After I pointed that out to him, he was no longer interested in discussion. He also stopped expressing his dripping disdain and intellectual snobbery real fast.

Honestly, I have no problem with that (my dad was an alcoholic, and even as an atheist himself he found some comfort in the phrase “Let go and let God”). What I have a problem with is, “I don’t know, therefore God . . . but I do know for sure that God also approves/disapproves X, Y, and Z and therefore everyone else should too.” If God’s truths are discoverable, then we don’t need to invoke him as the mysterious answer to the unknown; if God’s truth is mysterious, then we cannot know it with enough certainty to demand that the world conform to our imperfect understanding of it.

I have explained my theist / Christian point of view. You can have the last word.

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Photo credit: [Max PixelCreative Commons Zero – CC0 license]

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2018-06-26T15:41:43-04:00

Anthrotheist made comments underneath my post, Dialogue with an Atheist on “God of the Gaps” (which was a response to him). This is my counter-reply. His words will be in blue.

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Regarding my thought experiment, I rather expected that the baseline expectation from your side would be a universe in chaos or no universe at all. That’s consistent with the belief that God created the world and without him it would have no reason to be here.

Correct.

Your response to a godless world in which people manage to exist seemed interesting to me, because that seems to be pretty much the world we seem to live in. There is no universal sense of purpose or morality, only people figuring things out as we go.

To the contrary, there is a unified set of moral [principles common to all societies at all times. Christian apologist C. S. Lewis compiled these and called them “The Tao”. See the end section of his book, The Abolition of Man (word-search, “Illustrations of the Tao”). That’s the world as it exists, which I think is perfectly consistent with what we would expect in a world with God, Who put these common moral impulses into mankind.

There is copious suffering, confusion, and uncertainty.

To the extent that there is, and it is tied up with conflicting moral outlooks, I would contend that it is due to massively, rapidly increasing secularization: which is essentially the rejection of Christianity (or other religions) and moral traditionalism. Suffering itself is, of course, the topic of the famous “problem of evil”: that I have written a ton about (see my Philosophy page). I don’t think it has disproved God in the slightest, because the “problem of good” is an [at least] equally difficult objection to atheism.

On a global level, with all the conflicts between nations and peoples and religions, is it really all that less awful than any (purportedly) atheistic totalitarian state? Seems we come back inevitably to the problem of evil again. :-)

I simply noted the worst examples of states that had utterly rejected God and traditional morality (Stalin’s Soviet Union, Mao’s China, and Hitler’s Germany). Those examples show the full extent of what a complete rejection of God looks like. The world as a whole is a mixture of religiously committed people, the far greater number of lax or inconsistent religionists, and atheists. It’s a mixed bag.

Taking a stab at my own question(s) is a bit difficult because I am coming from the belief that there are no gods, and must imagine a world in which there is some God. Which God exactly is the issue; I grew up Methodist but deconverted before I entered into more complex conversations regarding its theology (though I am trying to make up for that nowadays). 

I’d like to read your story sometime. Every deconversion story of atheists I have seen so far (and I have examined many) made it clear that the true nature of Christianity was very inadequately understood (meaning that what was rejected was at least in part, a straw man or imaginary image of what Christianity supposedly is). Atheists — in my experience — are extremely uncomfortable with having their deconversions critiqued. But hey, if God and Christianity are fair game, so are deconversions. If you can’t stand the heat, don’t put such things up on the Internet. Just keep it private; or else someone like me will come around and it may become a bit embarrassing when I poke holes in reputed “facts” about the Bible and Christianity.

Describing a world created by God would reveal what I believe to be God’s character. Let’s say that God can do anything, and is all-good. Assuming that he wants people to have free will, he would have to allow them to do things that are evil. Being capable of anything and being good though, God could allow people to harm themselves with their evil deeds but shield others from being harmed. Thus evil could exist in the world, free will would be preserved, but God would protect people from evil that they do not deserve. Assuming that death and misfortune are not ‘evil’, people would still have struggles and hardships; what they wouldn’t have is powerlessness against malice.

I don’t think such a scenario scenario is “workable” or that it makes sense in the final analysis, when closely examined, as I have written about.

Similarly, if God created everything and wanted humanity to know of Him, I would expect the world to know of him.

As indeed it does, which is why the vast majority of the people in the world are religious and believe in either a personal God or some extraordinary power beyond mere materialistic nature. Atheists are always a tiny minority.

He would have revealed himself to the world, in whatever way.

Exactly! Revelation. And that is what we believe the Bible is. The same Bible records historic manifestations of God and His power and character. Most importantly and notably: Jesus of Nazareth.

The religions and myths across cultures would converge on a common similarity, not vary from animism, to polytheism, to monotheism, and countless more very different categories of beliefs.

That doesn’t follow. I have provided evidence that mortality is largely the same, but we would fully expect differences of opinion, just as we find in every other field of thought or inquiry. Some people are right, others wrong, and most of us are a mixture of the two. None of that implies that there is not one truth or one God out there; none of it disproves either thing. All it proves is that people don’t agree on a lot of things.

Ultimately, the problem of evil makes it difficult for me to believe that there is a good God.

I think it fails, as I have written about, but I’ve always regarded it as the most serious objection, and so I’ve written about it a lot and debated it.

Assuming that God did not have to create the world, then he could have chosen not to do so.

We agree.

If he chose to create the world knowing that he would have to create evil at the same time, then his voluntary creation of unnecessary evil flies in the face of his supposed goodness.

What He thinks is “unnecessary” and what you do may be two very different things.

If he couldn’t make us without making evil, his goodness should have precluded him making us at all;

Again; according to you. I happen to think it’s a good thing that I exist, and am here typing this, and that you do. I think it’s worth it, and that human beings can experience an amazing joy and peace that doesn’t wipe out suffering, but makes it all bearable. That has been my Christian experience, and that of millions of others. I’m happy to bear witness to it, so that others can share in the Good News. It’s what I do for a living. Life has meaning! It has the utmost purpose! God will make all things right in the end. This world (and this life; an individual’s life) is not all there is.

his eternal solitude would have been a profound sacrifice for goodness, one that he apparently chose not to make.

I’m glad He made that choice, and I’m ecstatic that the destiny of all who choose to serve Him and allow His grace to work in their lives is an eternity of bliss in union with Him. I can’t wait to get there. In the meantime I will do all that I can to help others to see that this is the truth and that they can live happy, fulfilled lives on this earth, and have that fantastic future awaiting them in heaven.

A couple of clarifications may be in order. First, atheists are actually theists revering time and atoms as gods in the same manner that Christians are actually atheists when they don’t act like their prayer will cure a loved one’s cancer.

The analogy doesn’t follow. The atheist believes that matter, on its own, based on its inherent capabilities or potentialities, can create the universe out of nothing, and everything in it, which is exactly what theists believe God does. You have simply substituted matter for God. My analogy is almost a perfect one.

Christians believe that there is suffering in the world, for various reasons. Some of it (“natural evil”) is arguably just the way the world is, by the laws of science, and it is difficult to envision a world with no laws of science, where Oswald’s bullet (God predetermining it) would have turned into jelly just before it entered President Kennedy’s head.

That’s the sort of world that atheists apparently require in order to get rid of evil and believe in the possibility of God’s existence. I don’t think it makes sense in the end (when thought through), or is plausible. As I argued way back in 2002, in such a world it would be impossible, for example, to do science (because uniformitarianism would be overthrown), and I think that would be a tremendous tragedy.

As for cancer (which both my parents, my brother, and a very beloved aunt — and recently a sister-in-law — died from), Christians believe that their prayers won’t usually cure cancer because (as we understand) miracles are very rare and the exception to the rule: by definition. It doesn’t follow that we don’t believe in any miracles (like atheists); we simply think they are rare (and that God is not bound to fulfill any given prayer). For the most part, God lets the world operate on natural principles and laws.

We want to blame cancer on God? Well, He has given us brains to figure out how to prevent it in the first place (and eventually, I believe, to cure it). We know that smoking causes lung cancer. That explains my father and my aunt. My brother did drugs back in the 60s and early 70s, and that may account for his early death (just as it has in the case of many rock stars). He had already had mononucleosis and hepatitis. It was only my mother who didn’t abuse her body in this way. And she was 89 as it was.

Cancer, then, is one case among many, where oftentimes we bring misery upon ourselves by engaging in unhealthy behavior. Then we want to turn around and blame God for letting people die because of it. He has given us the knowledge to avoid at least some forms of cancer (notably, lung). Alcoholics develop liver problems, junk food junkies get diabetes, rock stars die in their 50s because of substance abuse (e.g., Carl Wilson of the Beach Boys and George Harrison: both died at a younger age than I am now: 59), etc.

That’s what comes with free will. Many people make wrong choices, and that’s not God’s fault because He allowed them to have free will. The knowledge was freely available for them to make better, more healthy choices. It’s their fault because they made bad choices in their lives. I get very tired of God being unjustly blamed for everything (Christians tend to do it, too; not just atheists).

Neither of those are fair representations of the opponent’s beliefs.

Mine is perfectly fair. If you don’t believe as an atheist that matter brought about / created everything in the universe, then please explain to me what else did?

Also, many atheists are rabid science proponents that claim that science is the perfect epistemology in much the same manner that many Christians claim that the Bible is literal and infallible. Again, neither of those represent a more thoughtful view on the respective subject; I may believe that science is a wonderful epistemological method and you may believe the Bible to be infallible, but the rest doesn’t apply.

I believe in both. I don’t see why they must be opposed to each other. It’s illogical and completely unnecessary. Some atheists go too far with science (scientism), and some Christians get dumb and extreme with the Bible. We agree about that.

I still can’t help but feel like the attribution of phenomena to God is a stopping point of inquiry, more than it is a starting point.

Explain to me, then, a scenario in which we can posit God as some / any sort of explanation. If you think every time we do it’s a cop-out and “god of the gaps” then that is simply arbitrary atheist dogmatism. Otherwise, there is some conceivable time where we can do so without hearing this silly charge (in which case you have to explain to us what it is; when that conceivably can occur).

At the outer extremes of each position, one set of presumptions (no God) leads to the belief that anything that we can encounter can be understood; at the other end (with God), it must be assumed that there will be things that we encounter that cannot ever be figured out.

Again, we need not talk only of extremes. Both science and theology have mysteries and unknown things, that we can’t fully explain. We appeal to God’s omniscience as a thing inherently higher than ourselves, and expect this. The atheist science appeals to time, chance, the omnipotent qualities of matter, and the wondrous assumed future development of science.

I don’t object to any particular person finding themselves concluding that God is necessary to explain their world to their satisfaction.

Excellent! That’s more than many atheists are willing to go. They have to characterize us as gullible, infantile, and believers in fairy tales and silly things like leprechauns. You show yourself to be quite tolerant and sensible!

At a larger societal level though, I don’t see the conclusion “God did it” as being conducive to expanding human knowledge (and the benefits that it brings, limited as they often are to material technological conveniences).

Once again: Explain to me, then, a scenario in which we can posit God as some / any sort of explanation, where we are not accused of “God of the gaps.”

I’ll be honest, one of the things I find comforting about believing that there are no Gods is that within that belief system, two things must be true about the universe: it must be consistent in its behaviors and it must be impartial toward humanity. The idea that God is continually doing the things that make the world work, and is only doing so consistently at his whim, is frankly terrifying to me; perhaps I could be more comforted with the thought if it wasn’t for the fact that pretty much every account of God portrays him as taking sides in human affairs. The notion of being on the wrong side of God, especially if it could be done in ignorance, is far more troubling to me than the notion that the universe is never kindly nor wrathful toward me.

If God was malevolent or some sort of dictator or tyrant as many atheists (including you?) falsely perceive Him to be, I’d be terrified, too. I’m saying that He is not that way, and that what we see in the world that is bad is largely explained by sinful human behavior, and that which is not caused by humans couldn’t be vastly different than what it is without chaos ensuing.

Atheism means that this “consistency” of the universe that you refer to brings to nought all human efforts. We all die and that’s it. Now you can argue that a life can produce great good and have fulfillment and meaning, and that it’s good in and of itself, regardless of the absence of an afterlife. I agree with that, as far as it goes, but the larger problem is evil, wicked men. In the atheist worldview, they die like all the rest of us and receive no punishment for their great evil.

They can laugh about and scorn their victims all the way to the grave. There is your “consistency.” Hitler and Mother Teresa both have the same ultimate fate: nonexistence. Hitler was never punished for his evil, and Mother Teresa wasn’t rewarded for her saintly service to the poor. You may think that is a wonderful or preferable state of affairs; I do not (especially with regard to Hitler).

In the Christian view, all the scales are evened out in the end, and there is justice, and therefore, ultimate meaning. Whatever evil men did and did not repent of (God will forgive anyone for anything if they repent) will be judged, up to and including an eternal hell of torment.

No one has to be on the “wrong side” of God if they know what His side is. If someone is merely ignorant, God takes that into consideration. If it is deliberate rejection of God and His moral laws, then it’s different. But God provides the way out, so I don’t see why He should be condemned. He ought to be rapturously praised for His goodness and love.

Good discussion! Thank you for the time and effort you put into it. And we’ll keep talking about this, if you wish.

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Photo credit: God the Father: attributed to Cima da Conegliano (1459-1517) [public domain / Wikimedia Commons]

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2018-06-16T14:04:21-04:00

Including the “Armstrong Ontological Argument” (First Tentative Attempt)

The ontological argument, originally formulated by the 11th-century Christian philosopher St. Anselm, is fascinating and ingenious, has a long and illustrious history, and involves more than might be apparent at first sight. This paper collects some materials favoring the ontological argument — which I (as a Catholic apologist) now respect to a far greater degree than when I began this research –, including a tentative presentation of my own version of it. The reader is urged to read more than once any section which is difficult to grasp at first; and some sections may be easier to understand upon a second reading, once other sections are read. The argument is very subtle and requires one to think in ways which are not the usual, everyday modes of thinking and analyzing. But it is not impossible to grasp, and I have taken pains to edit out philosophically difficult or overly abstract or symbolic logic portions of the philosophers I have cited.
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TABLE OF CONTENTS

I. Alvin Plantinga’s “Possible Worlds” Ontological Argument

II. Charles Hartshorne: Introduction to St. Anselm: Basic Writings

III. St. Anselm (c.1033-1109): the Original Ontological Argument

IV. Charles Hartshorne: Man’s Vision of God (1941: excerpts)

V. Richard Taylor: General Remarks on the Ontological Argument

VI. Norman Malcolm: “Anselm’s Ontological Arguments” (excerpts)

VII. The “Armstrong Ontological Argument” (First Tentative Attempt)

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I. Alvin Plantinga’s “Possible Worlds” Ontological Argument
Here is Alvin Plantinga’s presentation (slightly abridged, for more compact presentation, with ellipses deleted, and numbers changed to letters; the primary source is given below). From: God, Freedom, and Evil, New York: Harper & Row, 1974, 111-112, 85-88:

 

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We can restate the ontological argument in such a way that it no longer matters whether there are any merely possible beings that do not exist. Instead of speaking of the possible being that has, in some world or other, a maximal degree of greatness, we may speak of the property of being maximally great or maximal greatness. Maximal greatness is possibly instantiated:

(A) There is a possible world in which maximal greatness is instantiated.(B) Necessarily, a being is maximally great only if it has maximal excellence in every world.

(C) Necessarily, a being has maximal excellence in every world only if it has omniscience, omnipotence, and moral perfection in every world.

Notice that (B) and (C) do not imply that there are possible but nonexistent beings — any more than does, for example,

(D) Necessarily, a thing is a unicorn only if it has one horn.

But if (A) is true, then there is a possible world W such that if it had been actual, then there would have existed a being that was omnipotent, omniscient, and morally perfect; this being, furthermore, would have had these qualities in every possible world. So it follows that if W had been actual, it would have been impossible that there be no such being. That is, if W had been actual,

(E) There is no omnipotent, omniscient, and morally perfect being

would have been an impossible proposition. But if a proposition is impossible in at least one possible world, then it is impossible in every possible world; what is impossible does not vary from world to world. Accordingly (E) is impossible in the actual world, i.e., impossible simpliciter. But if it is impossible that there be no such being, then there actually exists a being that is omnipotent, omniscient, and morally perfect; this being, furthermore, has these qualities essentially and exists in every possible world.

What shall we say of this argument? It is certainly valid; given its premise, the conclusion follows. The only question of interest, it seems to me, is whether its main premise — that maximal greatness is possibly instantiated — is true. I think it is true; hence I think this version of the ontological argument is sound.

But here we must be careful; we must ask whether this argument is a successful piece of natural theology, whether it proves the existence of God. And the answer must be, I think, that it does not. An argument for God’s existence may be sound,after all, without in any useful sense proving God’s existence.

[With regard to] the ontological argument we’ve been examining, it must be conceded that not everyone who understands and reflects on its central premise — that the existence of a maximally great being is possible — will accept it. Still, it is evident, I think, that there is nothing contrary to reason or irrational in accepting this premise. What I claim for this argument, therefore, is that it establishes, not the truth of theism, but its rational acceptability. And hence it accomplishes at least one of the aims of the tradition of natural theology.

. . . At first sight Anselm’s argument is remarkably unconvincing if not downright irritating; it looks too much like a parlor puzzle or word magic. And yet nearly every major philosopher from the time of Anselm to the present has had something to say about it; this argument has a long and illustrious line of defenders extending to the present. Indeed, the last few years have seen a remarkable flurry of interest in it among philosophers . . .

. . . although the argument certainly looks at first sight as if it ought to be unsound, it is profoundly difficult to say what, exactly, is wrong with it. Indeed, I do not believe that any philosopher has ever given a cogent and conclusive refutation of the ontological argument in its various forms . . .

At first sight, this argument smacks of trumpery and deceit; but suppose we look at it a bit more closely . . . How can we outline this argument? It is best construed, I think, as a reductio ad absurdum argument. In a reductio you prove a given proposition p by showing that its denial, not-p, leads to (or more strictly, entails) a contradiction or some other kind of absurdity. Anselm’s argument can be seen as an attempt to deduce an absurdity from the proposition that there is no God. If we use the term “God” as an abbreviation for Anselm’s phrase “the being than which nothng greater can be conceived,” then the argument seems to go approximately as follows. Suppose:

(1) God exists in the understanding but not in reality.
(2) Existence in reality is greater than existence in the understanding alone. (premise)
(3) God’s existence in reality is conceivable. (premise)
(4) If God did exist in reality, then He would be greater than He is. [from (1) and (2) ]
(5) It is conceivable that there is a being greater than God is. [(3) and (4)]
(6) It is conceivable that there be a being greater than the being than which nothing greater can be conceived. [(5) by the definition of “God”]

But surely (6) is absurd and self-contradictory; how could we conceive of a being greater than the being than which none greater can be conceived? So we may conclude that

(7) It is false that God exists in the understanding but not in reality

It follows that if God exists in the understanding, He also exists in reality; but clearly enough He does exist in the understanding, as even a fool will testify; therefore, He exists in reality as well.

Now when Anselm says that a being exists in the understanding, we may take him, I think, as saying that someone has thought of or thought about that being. When he says that something exists in reality, on the other hand, he means to say simply that the thing in question really does exist. And when he says that a certain state of affairs is conceivable, he means to say, I believe, that this state of affairs is possible in our broadly logical sense . . . there is a possible world in which it obtains. This means that step (3) above may be put more perspicuously as

(3′) It is possible that God exists

and step (6) as

(6′) It is possible that there be a being greater than the being than which it is not possible that there be a greater.

An interesting feature of this argument is that all of its premises are necessarily true if true at all. (1) is the assumption from which Anselm means to deduce a contradiction. (2) is a premise, and presumably necessarily true in Anselm’s view, and (3) is the only remaning premise (the other items are consequences of preceding steps); it says of some otherproposition (God exists ) that it is possible. Propositions which thus ascribe a modality — possibility, necessity, contingency — to another proposition are themselves either necessarily true or necessarily false. So all the premises of the argument are, if true at all, necessarily true. And hence if the premises of this argument are true, then [provided that (6) is really inconsistent] a contradiction can be deduced from (1) together with necessary propositions; this means that (1) entails a contradiction and is, therefore, necessarily false.

Catholic philosopher Peter Kreeft restated this argument as follows (From: Handbook of Christian Apologetics, co-author Ronald K. Tacelli, Downers Grove, Illinois: InterVarsity Press, 1994, 71-72):
Definitions:

“Maximal excellence”: To have omnipotence, omniscience and moral perfection in some world.

“Maximal greatness”: To have maximal excellence in every possible world.

1. There is a possible world (W) in which there is a being (X) with maximal greatness.2. But X is maximally great only if X has maximal excellence in every possible world.

3. Therefore X is maximally great only if X has omnipotence, omniscience and moral perfection in every possible world.

4. In W, the proposition, “There is no omnipotent, omniscient, morally perfect being” would be impossible — that is, necessarily false.

5. But what is impossible does not vary from world to world.

6. Therefore, the proposition, “There is no omnipotent, omniscient, morally perfect being” is necessarily false in this actual world, too.

7. Therefore, there actually exists in this world, and must exist in every possible world, an omnipotent, omniscient, morally perfect being.

II. Charles Hartshorne: Introduction to St. Anselm: Basic Writings
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Charles Hartshorne, in his introduction to the second edition of St. Anselm: Basic Writings (translated by S. W. Deane, La Salle: Illinois: Open Court Pub. Co., 1962; reprinted from 1903, pp. 1-3,5-6,12), minces no words about how he feels that St. Anselm’s original argument has been very poorly presented and understood:

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The main mass of reference works, including the Encyclopedia Brittanica, the Catholic Encyclopedia, and most dictionaries, histories, textbooks, dealing particularly with philosophy . . . give scant information concerning the central Anselmian idea. Even to say this is flattery. For they present their wretched little caricatures as serious accounts of the subject. (Let the reader say what he pleases about this charge — after he has genuinely investigated the matter for himself). If Anselm is to be refuted, it should be for what he said, taken in something like the context which he provided, and not for something someone else said he said, or a fragment of what he said, torn wholly out of context.

No one should attempt to criticize or defend Anselm’s proposal who fails to read, and read carefully, at least Chapters III-IV of the Proslogium, and Chapters I, V, and IX of the Apologium (reply to Gaunilo). Compared to these, the famous-notorious Chapter II of the Proslogium, (or at least, its endlessly-quoted last two paragraphs) is, as Barth says in his book on Anselm’s argument, altogether secondary. These paragraphs represent but a preliminary try, and an unsuccessful one — elliptical and misleading at best — to state the essential point, which is first formulated in Proslogium III, and reiterated many times in the Apologetic I, V, and IX.

. . . Among the many errors which have accumulated about Anselm is the notion that the evaluation of his Argument is a simple task. He himself shared to some extent in this error . . . The Proof claims to show that one and only one property, divinity, is related by necessity to the existence of a unique individual having the property, so that to conceive the property is to conceive the necessary existence of that individual. In this case “existence” is not a mere question of fact but of logical necessity. Thus “God” is held to be an exception to the ordinary rule that affirmations of existence are contingent. To insist on the universal validity of the rule is merely to say dogmatically that what the argument claims to show cannot be correct. Moreover that the idea of God must be an exception to certain otherwise valid generalizations is obvious from any usual definition of the idea and has been asserted by many hundreds of philosophers and theologians for nearly two thousand years . . .

. . . the Anselmian problem is not simple . . . [e.g.,] the subtlety of the modal concepts of necessary truth and necessary reality, as to which there are various disagreements among the logicians and philosophers generally. To be sure, Anselm does not say “necessary”; he simply says, “cannot be conceived not to exist.” . . .

. . . we find that Anselm (or Descartes) has no need of a general principle according to which existence is a property. For there is direct reason for taking divine or necessary existence as a property (which inheres in the property of divinity as defined), and to show this no such major premise as the one above impugned about existence in general is needed. Indeed, the sense in which the divine form of existence is a property is shown to be doubly unique, neither existence nor property having here a usual meaning. The property Anselm needs is not mere existence by necessary-existence, the unique existence of the creator of all things. Is it so odd to suppose that this sense of “exist” must somehow be unique? True, there must also be a universal meaning of “exist” which applies even here; but is it this universal meaning of which it can be proved that it is “never a predicate”? Existing contingently (or as creatures exist), this indeed is clearly never (except in an innocuous sense) a predicate; but of existence in the all-comprehending meaning which includes the creator, we can, without begging the question, only say that, at least apart from the one supreme form, it is no predicate. The supreme form, however, must be judged directly, and without prejudice;for otherwise we are merely ruling out theism a priori.

One way to put Anselm’s contention is this:

A. “Divinity exists” is, though not without difficulty, or without severe qualifications, conceivable by the human mind;B. “Divinity does not exist” is strictly inconceivable (in a more than verbal sense) by any mind, being either self-contradictory or meaningless.

Thus the usual symmetry between the conceivability of existence and that of nonexistence is here upset in favor of existence. Taking this as the Anselmian position, refutation must consist in showing either that divine existence and divine nonexistence are alike conceivable, or that divine existence is inconceivable. These two ways of upsetting the asserted asymmetry, though obviously incompatible, are very commonly confused, and this is one of several defects which disfigure this prolonged controversy . . .

. . . His nonexistence must be unknowable absolutely. For, one who knows cannot know nonentity only, he must know something positive . . . divine nonexistence is unknowable absolutely, whether by divine or nondivine cognition. By contrast, divine existence is conceivably knowable, both by God Himself and also by any nondivine cognition able to connect effects with their universal Cause (not to mention able to understand the Ontological Proof). I conclude that the asymmetry to which Anselm points is quite real, and that on this main issue he is essentially correct, and his critics essentially mistaken. It is true, like it or not, that divinity, differing in this from all ordinary properties, cannot be conceived (relative to possible knowledge) unless as existent.

III. St. Anselm (c. 1033-1109): the Original Ontological Argument
Proslogion

Chapter 3: That God Cannot be Thought Not to Exist

In fact, it so undoubtedly exists that it cannot be thought of as not existing. For one can think there exists something that cannot be thought of as not existing, and that would be greater than something which can be thought of as not existing. For if that greater than which cannot be thought can be thought of as not existing, then that greater than which cannot be thought is not that greater than which cannot be thought, which does not make sense. Thus that than which nothing can be thought so undoubtedly exists that it cannot even be thought of as not existing.

And you, Lord God, are this being. You exist so undoubtedly, my Lord God, that you cannot even be thought of as not existing. And deservedly, for if some mind could think of something greater than you, that creature would rise above the creator and could pass judgment on the creator, which is absurd. And indeed whatever exists except you alone can be thought of as not existing. You alone of all things most truly exists and thus enjoy existence to the fullest degree of all things, because nothing else exists so undoubtedly, and thus everything else enjoys being in a lesser degree. Why therefore did the fool say in his heart “there is no God,” since it is so evident to any rational mind that you above all things exist? Why indeed, except precisely because he is stupid and foolish?

Chapter 4: How the Fool Managed to Say in His Heart That Which Cannot be Thought

How in the world could he have said in his heart what he could not think? Or how indeed could he not have thought what he said in his heart, since saying it in his heart is the same as thinking it? But if he really thought it because he said it in his heart, and did not say it in his heart because he could not possibly have thought it – and that seems to be precisely what happened – then there must be more than one way in which something can be said in one’s heart or thought. For a thing is thought in one way when the words signifying it are thought, and it is thought in quite another way when the thing signified is understood. God can be thought not to exist in the first way but not in the second. For no one who understands what God is can think that he does not exist. Even though he may say those words in his heart he will give them some other meaning or no meaning at all. For God is that greater than which cannot be thought. Whoever understands this also understands that God exists in such a way that one cannot even think of him as not existing.

Thank you, my good God, thank you, because what I believed earlier through your gift I now understand through your illumination in such a way that I would be unable not to understand it even if I did not want to believe you existed.

[Translation by David Burr [[email protected]]. From: Medieval Source Book]

Reply to Gaunilo (Apologion)
IN REPLY TO GAUNILO’S ANSWER IN BEHALF OF THE FOOL

IT was a fool against whom the argument of my Proslogium was directed. Seeing, however, that the author of these objections is by no means a fool, and is a Catholic, speaking in behalf of the fool, I think it sufficient that I answer the Catholic.

Chapter 1

A general refutation of Gaunilo’s argument. It is shown that a being than which a greater cannot be conceived exists in reality.

You say — whosoever you may be, who say that a fool is capable of making these statements — that a being than which a greater cannot be conceived is not in the understanding in any other sense than that in which a being that is altogether inconceivable in terms of reality, is in the understanding. You say that the inference that this being exists in reality, from the fact that it is in the understanding, is no more just than the inference that a lost island most certainly exists, from the fact that when it is described the hearer does not doubt that it is in his understanding.

But I say: if a being than which a greater is inconceivable is not understood or conceived, and is not in the understanding or in concept, certainly either God is not a being than which a greater is inconceivable, or else he is not understood or conceived, and is not in the understanding or in concept. But I call on your faith and conscience to attest that this is most false. Hence, that than which a greater cannot be conceived is truly understood and conceived, and is in the understanding and in concept. Therefore either the grounds on which you try to controvert me are not true, or else the inference which you think to base logically on those grounds is not justified.

But you hold, moreover, that supposing that a being than which a greater cannot be conceived is understood, it does not follow that this being is in the understanding; nor, if it is in the understanding, does it therefore exist in reality.

In answer to this, I maintain positively: if that being can be even conceived to be, it must exist in reality. For that than which a greater is inconceivable cannot be conceived except as without beginning. But whatever can be conceived to exist, and does not exist, can be conceived to exist through a beginning. Hence what can be conceived to exist, but does not exist, is not the being than which a greater cannot be conceived. Therefore, if such a being can be conceived to exist, necessarily it does exist.

Furthermore: if it can be conceived at all, it must exist. For no one who denies or doubts the existence of a being than which a greater is inconceivable, denies or doubts that if it did exist, its non-existence, either in reality or in the understanding, would be impossible. For otherwise it would not be a being than which a greater cannot be conceived. But as to whatever can be conceived, but does not exist — if there were such a being, its non-existence, either in reality or in the understanding, would be possible. Therefore if a being than which a greater is inconceivable can be even conceived, it cannot be nonexistent.

But let us suppose that it does not exist, even if it can be conceived. Whatever can be conceived, but does not exist, if it existed, would not be a being than which a greater is inconceivable. If, then, there were a being a greater than which is inconceivable, it would not be a being than which a greater is inconceivable: which is most absurd. Hence, it is false to deny that a being than which a greater cannot be conceived exists, if it can be even conceived; much the more, therefore, if it can be understood or can be in the understanding.

Moreover, I will venture to make this assertion: without doubt, whatever at any place or at any time does not exist — even if it does exist at some place or at some time — can be conceived to exist nowhere and never, as at some place and at some time it does not exist. For what did not exist yesterday, and exists to-day, as it is understood not to have existed yesterday, so it can be apprehended by the intelligence that it never exists. And what is not here, and is elsewhere, can be conceived to be nowhere, just as it is not here. So with regard to an object of which the individual parts do not exist at the same places or times: all its parts and therefore its very whole can be conceived to exist nowhere or never.

For, although time is said to exist always, and the world everywhere, yet time does not as a whole exist always, nor the world as a whole everywhere. And as individual parts of time do not exist when others exist, so they can be conceived never to exist. And so it can be apprehended by the intelligence that individual parts of the world exist nowhere, as they do not exist where other parts exist. Moreover, what is composed of parts can be dissolved in concept, and be non-existent. Therefore, whatever at any place or at any time does not exist as a whole, even if it is existent, can be conceived not to exist.

But that than which a greater cannot be conceived, if it exists, cannot be conceived not to exist. Otherwise, it is not a being than which a greater cannot be conceived: which is inconsistent. By no means, then, does it at any place or at any time fail to exist as a whole: but it exists as a whole everywhere and always.

Do you believe that this being can in some way be conceived or understood, or that the being with regard to which these things are understood can be in concept or in the understanding? For if it cannot, these things cannot be understood with reference to it. But if you say that it is not understood and that it is not in the understanding, because it is not thoroughly understood; you should say that a man who cannot face the direct rays of the sun does not see the light of day, which is none other than the sunlight. Assuredly a being than which a greater cannot be conceived exists, and is in the understanding, at least to this extent — that these statements regarding it are understood.

Chapter 5

A particular discussion of certain statements of Gaunilo’s. In the first place, he misquoted the argument which he undertook to refute.

THE nature of the other objections which you, in behalf of the fool, urge against me it is easy, even for a man of small wisdom, to detect; and I had therefore thought it unnecessary to show this. But since I hear that some readers of these objections think they have some weight against me, I will discuss them briefly.

In the first place, you often repeat that I assert that what is greater than all other beings is in the understanding; and if it is in the understanding, it exists also in reality, for otherwise the being which is greater than all would not be greater than all.

Nowhere in all my writings is such a demonstration found. For the real existence of a being which is said to be greater than all other beings cannot be demonstrated in the same way with the real existence of one that is said to be a being than which a greater cannot be conceived.

If it should be said that a being than which a greater cannot be conceived has no real existence, or that it is possible that it does not exist, or even that it can be conceived not to exist, such an assertion can be easily refuted. For the non-existence of what does not exist is possible, and that whose non-existence is possible can be conceived not to exist. But whatever can be conceived not to exist, if it exists, is not a being than which a greater cannot be conceived; but if it does not exist, it would not, even if it existed, be a being than which a greater cannot be conceived. But it cannot be said that a being than which a greater is inconceivable, if it exists, is not a being than which a greater is inconceivable; or that if it existed, it would not be a being than which a greater is inconceivable.

It is evident, then, that neither is it non-existent, nor is it possible that it does not exist, nor can it be conceived not to exist. For otherwise, if it exists, it is not that which it is said to be in the hypothesis; and if it existed, it would not be what it is said to be in the hypothesis.

But this, it appears, cannot be so easily proved of a being which is said to be greater than all other beings. For it is not so evident that what can be conceived not to exist is not greater than all existing beings, as it is evident that it is not a being than which a greater cannot be conceived. Nor is it so indubitable that if a being greater than all other beings exists, it is no other than the being than which a greater cannot be conceived; or that if it were such a being, some other might not be this being in like manner; as it is certain with regard to a being which is hypothetically posited as one than which a greater cannot be conceived.

For consider: if one should say that there is a being greater than all other beings, and that this being can nevertheless be conceived not to exist; and that a being greater than this, although it does not exist, can be conceived to exist: can it be so clearly inferred in this case that this being is therefore not a being greater than all other existing beings, as it would be most positively affirmed in the other case, that the being under discussion is not, therefore, a being than which a greater cannot be conceived?

For the former conclusion requires another premise than the predication, greater than all other beings. In my argument, on the other hand, there is no need of any other than this very predication, a being than which a greater cannot be conceived.

If the same proof cannot be applied when the being in question is predicated to be greater than all others, which can be applied when it is predicated to be a being than which a greater cannot be conceived, you have unjustly censured me for saying what I did not say; since such a predication differs so greatly from that which I actually made. If, on the other hand, the other argument is valid, you ought not to blame me so for having said what can be proved.

Whether this can be proved, however, he will easily decide who recognises that this being than which a greater cannot be conceived is demonstrable. For by no means can this being than which a greater cannot be conceived be understood as any other than that which alone is greater than all. Hence, just as that than which a greater cannot be conceived is understood, and is in the understanding, and for that reason is asserted to exist in the reality of fact: so what is said to be greater than all other beings is understood and is in the understanding, and therefore it is necessarily inferred that it exists in reality.

You see, then, with how much justice you have compared me with your fool, who, on the sole ground that he understands what is described to him, would affirm that a lost island exists.

Chapter 9

The possibility of understanding and conceiving of the supremely great being. The argument advanced against the fool is confirmed.

BUT even if it were true that a being than which a greater is inconceivable cannot be conceived or understood; yet it would not be untrue that a being than which a greater cannot be conceived is conceivable and intelligible. There is nothing to prevent one’s saying ineffable, although what is said to be ineffable cannot be spoken of. Inconceivable is conceivable, although that to which the word inconceivable can be applied is not conceivable. So, when one says, that than which nothing greater is conceivable, undoubtedly what is heard is conceivable and intelligible, although that being itself, than which a greater is inconceivable, cannot be conceived or understood.

Or, though there is a man so foolish as to say that there is no being than which a greater is inconceivable, he will not be so shameless as to say that he cannot understand or conceive of what he says. Or, if such a man is found, not only ought his words to be rejected, but he himself should be contemned.

Whoever, then, denies the existence of a being than which a greater cannot be conceived, at least understands and conceives of the denial which he makes. But this denial he cannot understand or conceive of without its component terms; and a term of this statement is a being than which a greater cannot be conceived. Whoever, then, makes this denial, understands and conceives of that than which a greater is inconceivable.

Moreover, it is evident that in the same way it is possible to conceive of and understand a being whose non-existence is impossible; but he who conceives of this conceives of a greater being than one whose nonexistence is possible. Hence, when a being than which a greater is inconceivable is conceived, if it is a being whose non-existence is possible that is conceived, it is not a being than which a greater cannot be conceived. But an object cannot be at once conceived and not conceived. Hence he who conceives of a being than which a greater is inconceivable, does not conceive of that whose non-existence is possible, but of that whose non-existence is impossible. Therefore, what he conceives of must exist; for anything whose non-existence is possible, is not that of which he conceives.

[From Medieval Source Book website. Translated From The Latin By Sidney Norton Deane, B. A. With An Introduction, Bibliography, And Reprints Of The Opinions Of Leading Philosophers And Writers On The Ontological Argument, (Chicago, The Open Court Publishing Company, 1903, reprinted 1926). Etext (with permission) from the Christian Classics Ethereal Library, here modernized in some spellings.

IV. Charles Hartshorne: Man’s Vision of God (1941: excerpts)
From: Charles Hartshorne, Man’s Vision of God (New York: Harper & Row, 1941), excerpted in Alvin Plantinga, editor, The Ontological Argument, Garden City, New York: Doubleday Anchor, 1965, 124-127, 129-131, 134-135:

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The ontological argument itself does not suffice to exclude the impossibility or meaninglessness of God, but only to exclude his mere possibility . . . Now, given a meaning, there must be something which is meant. We do not think just our act of thinking. What we think may not be actual, but can it be less than possible — unless it be a self-contradictory combination of factors, singly and separately possible? In short, when we think, can we fail to refer to something beyond our thought which, either as a whole or in its elements, is at least possible? Granting this, the ontological argument says that, with reference to God, “at least possible” is indistinguishable from “possible and actual” (though, as we shall see, “possible” here means simply “not impossible” and has no positive content different from actuality) . . .

. . . the tables may be turned upon those who accuse the argument of making God an exception to all principles of knowledge. The argument does make God an exception, but only in the sense that it deduces this exceptional status from a generally applicable theory of possibility together with the definition of God. Nothing else is required. The opposition, on the contrary, sets up a general principle which, but for God and the desire to avoid asserting his existence (as following from his possibility), would be without merit . . .

The old objection that if a perfect being must exist then a perfect island or a perfect devil must exist is not perhaps very profound. For it is answered simply by denying that anyone can conceive perfection, in the strict sense employed by the argument, to be possessed by an island or a devil. A perfect devil would have at the same time to be infinitely responsible for all that exists besides itself, and yet infinitely averse to all that exists. It would have to attend with unrivaled care and patience and fullness of realization to the lives of all other beings (which must depend for existence upon this care), and yet it must hate all these things with matchless bitterness. It must savagely torture a cosmos every item of which is integral with its own being, united to it with a vivid intimacy such as we can only dimly imagine. In short, whether a perfect God is sense or nonsense, a perfect devil is unequivocally nonsense . . . Clearly, again, an island is not in essence unproducible and self-sufficient . . .

It has been objected to the ontological argument that existence is not a predicate, and hence cannot be implied by the predicate “perfection.” But if existence is not a predicate, yet the mode of a thing’s existence — is included in every predicate whatever. To be an atom is essentially to be a contingent product of forces which were also capable of not producing the atom, and doubtless for long ages did not do so . . . The strength of God implies the opposite relation to existence. “Self-existence” is a predicate which necessarily and uniquely belongs to God, for it is part of the predicate divinity . . .

Description of contingent things gives always a class quality, unless in the description is included some reference to the space-time world which itself is identified as “this” world, not by description. But “perfection,” as we shall see presently, is the one description which defines no class, not even a “one-membered” one, but either nothing or else an individual. If, then, it is true, as it seems to be, that mere possibility is always a matter of class, then the perfect being, which is no class, is either impossible or actual — there being no fourth status . . .

It is often said (and with an air of great wisdom) that a “mere idea” cannot reach existence, that only experience can do that. But there is no absolute disjunction between thought and experience. A thought is an experience of a certain kind, it means through experience, even when it reaches only a possibility. A thought which does not mean by virtue of experience is simply a thought which does not mean. Therefore, if we have a meaning for our thought of God, we also have experience of him, whether experience of him as possible or as actual being the question. It is too late to assert total lack of experience, once meaning has been granted. The only doubt can be whether the experience, already posited, is such as to establish possibility only, or existence also. But in the case of God no distinction between “not-impossible” and “actual” can be experienced or conceived. Hence we have only to exclude impossibility or meaninglessness to establish actuality . . . . .

That the ontological argument is hypothetical we have admitted. It says, “If ‘God’ stands for something conceivable, it stands for something actual.” But this hypothetical character is often distorted out of all recognition. We are told that the only logical relation brought out by the argument is this: The necessary being, if it exists, exists necessarily. Thus to be able to use the argument in order to conclude “God exists necessarily,” we should have to know the premise “God exists.” This makes the argument seem ludicrous enough, but it is itself based on a self-contradictory assumption, which says, “If the necessary being happens to exist, that is, if as a mere contingent fact, it exists, then it exists not as contingent fact, but as necessary truth.” Instead of this nonsense, we must say, “If the phrase ‘necessary being’ has a meaning, then what it means exists necessarily, and if it exists necessarily, then, a forteriori, it exists.” The “if” in the statement, “if it exists, it exists necessarily,” cannot have the force of making the existence of the necessary being contingent — except in the sense that the argument leaves it open to suppose that the phrase “necessary being” is nonsense, and of course nonsense has no objective referent, possible or actual. Thus, what we should maintain is, “that which exists, if at all, necessarily,” is the same as “that which is conceivable, if at all, only if it exists.” Granting that it is conceivable, it then follows that it exists because it could not, being an object of thought at all, be a non-actual object. Or once more, the formula might be this: The necessary being, if it is not nothing, and therefore the object of no possible positive idea, is actual.

V. Richard Taylor: General Remarks on the Ontological Argument
Richard Taylor, Introduction to Alvin Plantinga, editor, The Ontological Argument, Garden City, New York: Doubleday Anchor, 1965; the remarks below are from pp. xv-xviii:

 

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The Transition From Idea to Thing

Can one, however, fairly pass from the conception of such a being, or its existence in intellectu, to either the affirmation or the denial of its real existence? The possibility of doing so is often dismissed out of hand, which amounts to dismissing the basic feature of the ontological argument.

Yet as a matter of fact all men are perfectly accustomed to making this transition when it comes to denying the existence in re of certain things. Thus, from one’s clear understanding of what is meant by a plane four-sided figure, all of whose points are equidistant from the center, one can conclude with certainty that no such being exists in reality. The propriety of doing so is never questioned by anyone, and yet it is a clear instance of drawing a conclusion concerning what does or does not exist in reality solely from the clear conception of something in one’s understanding. Nor is this a case of “defining something out of existence,” which would be the reverse of what St. Anselm is often accused of doing. It is simply a case of showing, solely from the description of a thing, that the thing in question is impossible, and properly concluding from this that it does not, therefore, exist. Critics of the ontological argument who have deemed it obvious that one can never legitimately pass from the mere description of something to any conclusion concerning the existence in reality of the thing described have simply failed to note that this is not only a legitimate inference but a very common one when it is the non-existence of something that is inferred. One might maintain that God’s existence cannot be proved by a consideration of the concept of God, but one cannot do so on the ground that no conclusions concerning what exists can be derived solely from our conceptions of things, for that is not true . . .

God as a Necessary Being

It seemed to St. Anselm that the idea of impossible non-existence, or better, necessary existence, is also perfectly comprehensible. It is but the corollary of the foregoing, though he did not put it in these terms. We can apply this notion to anything that exists by its very nature, in case the clear conception of such a thing can be formed. One can form a clear conception of God, conceived as the supreme being, or a being of such greatness that none greater can either be or be conceived. St. Anselm had no doubt that such a being exists in intellectu, for anyone but a fool can understand a clear description of God, though of course no one can comprehend such a being any more than he can comprehend the idea of a square circle. And from one’s understanding of it one can, it was clear to St. Anselm, be certain that such a being exists in re. It is eternally and ubiquitously existent, and cannot fail to exist anywhere or at any time. For the proof of this, St. Anselm maintained, one need not find such a being; one need not go beyond the conception of it. God is not thereby defined into existence, any more than square circles are defined out of existence, for He can no more gain existence than a square circle can lose it. Nor does one need, in proving the existence of such a being, surreptitiously to slip into one’s proof the premise that it exists. Its existence is perfectly evident to anyone who really understands what is being described, and only a fool, St. Anselm said, or one who has no clear understanding of what is meant by God can fail to believe in Him.

VI. Norman Malcolm: “Anselm’s Ontological Arguments” (excerpts)
Norman Malcolm, from “Anselm’s Ontological Arguments,” The Philosophical Review, Vol. LXIX (1960), excerpted in Alvin Plantinga, editor, The Ontological Argument, Garden City, New York: Doubleday Anchor, 1965; the remarks below are from pp. 141-142, 145-146, 148-149, 154-156:

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Anselm is saying two things: first, that a being whose non-existence is logically impossible is “greater” than a being whose nonexistence is logically possible (and therefore that a being a greater than which cannot be conceived must be one whose nonexistence is logically impossible); second, that God is a being than which a greater cannot be conceived.

In regard to the second of these assertions, there certainly is a use of the word “God,” and I think far the more common use, in accordance with which the statements “God is the greatest of all beings,” “God is the most perfect being,” “God is the supreme being,” are logically necessary truths, in the same sense that the statement “A square has four sides” is a logically necessary truth. If there is a man named “Jones” who is the tallest man in the world, the statement “Jones is the tallest man in the world” is merely true and is not a logically necessary truth. It is a virtue of Anselm’s unusual phrase, “a being greater than which cannot be conceived,” to make it explicit that the sentence “God is the greatest of all beings” expresses a logically necessary truth and not a mere matter of fact such as the one we imagined about Jones . . .

. . . Anselm is maintaining . . . not that existence is a perfection, but that the logical impossibility of non-existence is a perfection. In other words, necessary existence is a perfection. His first ontological proof uses the principle that a thing is greater if it exists than if it does not exist. His second proof employs the different principle that a thing is greater if it necessarily exists than if it does not necessarily exist . . .

What Anselm has proved is that the notion of contingent existence or contingent nonexistence cannot have any application to God. His existence must either be logically necessary or logically impossible. The only intelligible way of rejecting Anselm’s claim that God’s existence is necessary is to maintain that the concept of God, as a being a greater than which cannot be conceived, is self-contradictory or nonsensical. Supposing that this is false, Anselm is right to deduce God’s necessary existence from his characterization of Him as a being greater than which cannot be conceived.

Let me summarize the proof. If God, a being a greater than which cannot be conceived, does not exist then He cannot come into existence. For if He did He would either have been caused to come into existence or have happened to come into existence, and in either case He would be a limited being, which by our conception of Him he is not. Since He cannot come into existence, if He does not exist His existence is impossible. If He does exist He cannot have come into existence (for the reasons given), nor can He cease to exist, for nothing could cause Him to cease to exist nor could it just happen that He ceased to exist. So if God exists His existence is necessary. Thus God’s existence is either impossible or necessary. It can be the former only if the concept of such a being is self-contradictory or in some way logically absurd. Assuming that this is not so, it follows that He necessarily exists . . .

. . . when the concept of God is correctly understood one sees that one caannot “rehect the subject.” “There is no God” is seen to be a necessarily false statement. Anselm’s demonstration proves that the proposition “God exists” has the same a priori footing as the proposition “God is omnipotent.”

Many present-day philosophers, in agreement with Kant, declare that existence is not a property and think that this overthrows the ontological argument. Although it is an error to regard existence as a property of things that have contingent existence, it does not follow that it is an error to regard necessary existence as a property of God . . .

Kant says that “every reasonable person” must admit that “all existential propositions are synthetic.” Part of the perplexity one has about the ontological argument is in deciding whether or not the proposition “God necessarily exists” is or is not an “existential proposition.” But let us look around. Is the Euclidean theorem in number theory, “There exists an infinite number of prime numbers,” an “existential proposition”? Do we not want to say that in some sense it asserts the existence of something? Cannot we say, with equal justification, that the proposition “God necessarily exists” asserts the existence of something, in some sense? . . .

I think that Caterus, Kant, and numerous other philosophers have been mistaken in supposing that the proposition “God is a necessary being” (or “God necessarily exists”) is equivalent to the conditional proposition “If God exists then He necessarily exists.” For how do they want the antecedent clause, “If God exists,” to be understood? Clearly they want to imply that it is possible that God does notexist. The whole point of Kant’s analysis is to try to show that it is possible to “reject the subject.” Let us make this implication explicit in the conditional proposition, so that it reads: “If God exists (and it is possible that He does not) then He necessarily exists.” But now it is apparent, I think, that these philosophers have arrived at a self-contradictory position. I do not mean that this conditional proposition, taken alone, is self-contradictory. Their position is self-contradictory in the following way. On the one hand they agree that the proposition “God necessarily exists” is an a priori truth; Kant implies that it is “absolutely necessary,” and Caterus says that God’s existence is implied by His very name. On the other hand, they think that it is correct to analyze this proposition in such a way that it will entail the proposition “It is possible that God does not exist.” But so far from its being the case that the proposition “God necessarily exists” entails the proposition “It is possible that God does not exist,” it is rather the case that they are incompatible with one another! Can anything be clearer than that the conjunction “God necessarily exists but it is possible that He does not exist” is self-contradictory? Is it not just as plainly self-contradictory as the conjunction “A square necessarily has four sides but it is possible for a square not to have four sides”? In short, this familiar criticism of the ontological argument is self-contradictory, because it accepts both of two incompatible propositions.

One conclusion we may draw from our examination of this criticism is that (contrary to Kant) there is a lack of symmetry, in an important respect, between the propositions “A triangle has three angles” and “God has necessary existence,” although both are a priori. The former can be expressed in the conditional assertion “If a triangle exists (and it is possible that none does) it has three angles.” The latter cannot be expressed in the corresponding conditional assertion without contradiction.

VII. The “Armstrong Ontological Argument” (First Tentative Attempt)
The atheist asks why anyone should accept Plantinga’s Premise A. First of all, one is only asked (in this first premise) to believe in the possibility of the maximally great being, and even that only in a possible world, not the actual one. This doesn’t strike me as an extraordinary or unreasonable concession or admission at all. In other words, it is simply admitting, “God might exist in another possible world.”

We imagine that any number of things may exist (especially in other worlds) that we don’t believe exist in our world. The premise, one must always keep in mind, is only about a possibility. We posit the existence, of, for example, extraterrestrial life, even though there has been no proof of it whatsoever. We reason that there are (demonstrably) millions of galaxies, and that it is rational to believe that life may have developed in another one besides ours. Many educated people believe this (and — to note in passing — it is not incompatible with Christianity, according to so prominent a Christian apologist as C. S. Lewis), but there is no hard evidence for it.

To accept the mere possibility of a God in some other possible world does not, it seems to me, involve much more “faith” than belief in extraterrestrial life. Every book of science fiction imagines another world that doesn’t exist in fact. A book which was sheer nonsense and had no plausibility as another world whatever, would not succeed. Thus, it is arguable that most readers grant some possibility of this imagined world, even for the book to succeed as a piece of entertainment.

One could think of several reasons why it is reasonable to accept the premise of a possible God-Being: anthropological study, showing that human beings are overwhelmingly religious, and that they usually believe in one or more deities, or the fact that the existence of God has been a prominent aspect of philosophy from the beginning, and that many of the greatest thinkers throughout history have been theists or Christians (thus it would seem unreasonable to rule out the very barest theoretical possibility), or similarities in moral codes and individual consciences across various cultures (not to mention minds and consciousness themselves), which lead many to believe that there is a unifying Mind and Benevolent “Force” which lies behind all that.

To deny the premise, on the other hand, involves one in considerable difficulty, I think, because it is far too “certain” to remain plausible: it claims far too much for its own knowledge. Let’s examine such a scenario a bit:

(anti-A) There is no possible world in which maximal greatness is instantiated.

How can a person know this? By what criterion is anti-A more plausible or worthy of belief than A? For to believe this would be (it seems to me) to believe the proposition:

(anti-A2) No such thing as God exists, and no such thing can possibly exist in any possible, imaginable, conceivable universe.

Now, if that is true, then why is the topic of God and theism so prominent in philosophy? If indeed theism were as silly and foolish as belief in fairy tales, leprechauns, unicorns, mermaids, centaurs, or other fanciful, absurd mythologies, why does the question continue to occupy great minds (both in favor of theism, and opposed to it?). One doesn’t devote any time to sheer nonsense: Alice in Wonderland worlds or linguistic gibberish.

No one (with three brain cells) seriously considers as any possibility that the earth is flat, or that the moon is made of green cheese. If the notion of God is in that kind of immediately dismissible category, then it is quite strange that rational, thoughtful, intelligent people devote so much time and energy to it. Therefore, the rational person must (given all these considerations) grant the bare possibility of God in another possible world, and this is all that premise A of the argument requires.

I don’t see that it is all that big of a deal to simply admit the possibility of such a God. It would seem to follow from a healthy intellectual humility or self-questioning. We are not infallible beings. We are fallible; therefore we can’t place so much confidence in our own beliefs and mental processes that we can start ruling out possibilities of scenarios in possible worlds.

If there is no possibility at all, why do Internet lists (and philosophy clubs and associations) devoted to the question of God’s existence, exist, and draw very sharp people to them, willing to spend time on the question? How many lists and clubs and associations devote themselves to the flat earth and a moon made of green cheese? There may be such lists, but who are the members?!

The atheist might reply that they are trying to persuade the theist of the error of his ways, but does any round-earther spend time trying to dissuade flat-earthers? Do the greatest minds spend time trying to reason with the worst cases in a mental hospital? No, of course not. The very existence of the discussion proves that reasonable minds worth being reached and interacted with, believe in theism; therefore its bare possibility (and only in other possible worlds at this point) must be granted, and in effect, is granted, by the evidence of the very way that atheists (at least the more respectable and thoughtful ones) act and think, vis-a-vis theists and Christian thinkers. Actions speak louder than words (or thoughts). So let’s revisit again what denial of A involves, and develop it a little further:

(anti-A2a) No such thing as God exists, and no such thing can possibly exist in any possible, imaginable, conceivable universe.(anti-A2b) Such an inconceivable, unimaginable, impossible thing cannot have any conceivable, imaginable, possible rationales or defenses in its favor.

(anti-A2c) Things which have no conceivable, imaginable, possible rationales or defenses are not worth talking about; indeed, cannot be rationally and meaningfully discussed at all.

Conclusion: Internet lists and clubs and philosophical associations devoted to the question of God’s existence are worthless, meaningless enterprises, if we accept premises anti-A and anti-A2 (a, b, c). That being the case, we should shut such endeavors down immediately and talk only about agreed-upon concrete realities. Or atheists can admit Plantinga’s Premise A, in which case his argument can be allowed to proceed with (by his own appraisal), the largest hurdle removed.

The atheist might reply that a being could still be maximally great within its own world but not in all other worlds. But truly “maximal” greatness is greatness in all possible worlds. It is a matter of simple definition. “Maximal greatness” is not confined to one world alone. It transcends that limitation, because it is the greatest greatness imaginable.

Or the atheist might argue that it is not possible for moral perfection to exist in a morally imperfect world. But this would be a smuggling in of the notion of a morally imperfect world, too early in the game. At this point, we are discussing all possible worlds, and remain in the realm of the hypothetical (but following unarguable logical principles).

Secondly, such a criticism fails to distinguish between such a hypothetical being and the world in which it is found. The argument is far from creation, which then introduces difficulties like the problem of evil, and so forth. Moral perfection is simply one of the aspects of being maximally excellent.

Thirdly, even if creatures of said Being were imperfect, that doesn’t necessarily reflect badly upon the Being-Creator (which gets back to the thorny issue of free will of created creatures to contravene the will of their creator). These are all reasonable and important considerations, but far ahead of the actual argument as stated.

The characteristic of maximal greatness is not confined to one world. Even the laws of logic and mathematics are not confined to the actual world but (quite arguably) apply to all possible worlds. How could, for example, possible world #47 exist and not exist simultaneously, or have the property of relativity ubiquitously and also not have it, or be expanding and contracting simultaneously?

One atheist I interacted with readily admitted that “the conclusion does actually follow logically from (A).” He went on to deny (A), of course. But by his own words, if one can establish the rational credibility and plausibility of A (itself a mere hypothetical), then the argument succeeds — if the goal is to show that theism is at least as rational as atheism (as Plantinga himself states). That’s all I ever claim even for the cosmological and teleological arguments, which I consider the best ones in favor of theism.

Given what Plantinga already granted, of course the theist can also grant atheism as a logical possibility (even one which could be rationally established by modifying this very argument). The theist has no problem conceptualizing a possible world without God (the opposite of Plantinga’s Premise A in one sense). That is a humdrum, unremarkable admission. What I find extraordinary is the denial of the very possibility of A: that God could possibly exist in a possible world.

If the denial of A (or, anti-A) is easier to believe than A, then the atheist would have a point, but how does one argue that it is an easier thing to believe? Much of the point of the argument is to show that theism is every bit as plausible as atheism. Until I am shown why anti-A is more plausible than A, then I will continue to assert that this version of the ontological argument succeeds in its stated purpose.

It’s hardly possible to either prove or disprove A’:

(A’) There is a possible world in which maximal greatness is not instantiated.

or another notion opposed to A; what I called “anti-A-2”:

(anti-A2) No such thing as God exists, and no such thing can possibly exist in any possible, imaginable, conceivable universe.

But then it is also impossible to disprove A or hold that it is impossible in all possible worlds. So that places (it seems to me) theism and atheism on, at very least, equal rational ground, insofar as this argument is concerned.

One possible hypothetical doesn’t preclude another possible hypothetical. Possibility is not actuality. Only the instantiation of one or the other precludes the contrary state of affairs. But Premise A (as I keep reiterating) was only about possibility. The theist says, “sure, it is conceivable that the universe might have existed, might have been eternal, without a God to create or oversee it.” Anything is conceivable, if it isn’t inherently nonsensical or self-defeating.

Why, then, does the atheist find it so hard to conceive of a possible world (and an actual world) with God? Most atheists I know claim that they would be willing to believe in God, given what they deem as a proper, compelling amount of evidence. How can one even be willing to theoretically believe in something they claim is inconceivable? They must already have the (sensible / non-nonsensical) concept in their head to even conceive that they might conceivably believe it, given enough verification and proof and philosophical plausibility.

The way I view the argument (which is apparently Plantinga’s opinion, also) is that it shows both atheism and theism equally plausible and rational options, before anything else is considered. Of course, for me, the theist, the “anything else” is a massive amount of cumulative evidences which enter into the acceptance of Premise A. Neither side should be too confident about what philosophy or logic alone can accomplish.

One also has to take into account plausibility and the mysterious process by which one arrives at axioms and premises in the first place. It is true of virtually any argument, that the premises (almost always) have to be supported elsewhere, and can be disputed. So this is no problem unique to the ontological argument. It’s a worthy goal to show the equal rationality of theism with atheism, as this is routinely denied (and often assumed without argument).

Of course the theist believes that theism is more rational and plausible, and that atheism is ultimately irrational and implausible, but in terms of individual arguments, a rational equivalence is a good outcome. For an atheist to even admit such a thing is already a huge victory, because so much of atheist predisposition is based on the notion that Christianity is inherently intellectually inferior, “primitive” or “antiquated,” based on mythology and wish-fulfillment, etc. ad nauseam.

I acknowledge that a world without God is conceivable, if one (theoretically only) starts from scratch, with no prior axioms of God’s existence (on any grounds whatsoever). In other words, it is the provisional stance of a (non-theist, non-anything) skeptic, for the sake of argument only. Once one gets into the intricacies of the logic involved in the ontological argument and theism generally, there is a sense in which, indeed, a theist cannot admit this, because it would involve self-contradiction.

For my part, I was (above, in certain places) thinking in terms of conceptualizing possible, conceivable worlds which are other than what theists believe them to be in reality. If it is impossible for us to envision any possible realities other than the one we accept, then it follows that our view is well-nigh unfalsifiable, and amounts to an irrational fideism. As I have always opposed that, I must accept that I could be wrong and that other worlds are conceptually and actually possible. I do not believe this myself; only that things might have been other than what they are. There is a sense in which anything not logically impossible, is possible.

If we ask the atheist to do such a thing in reverse (i.e., conceive of a possible world with God, which is the requirement of Plantinga’s first premise), it seems to me that we must do the same ourselves, in the opposite direction, strictly for the sake of argument, and an acknowledgement of what “possible worlds” means, in the broadest possible sense. I think my statements were and are permissible, in the sense just explained.

When I state such things, I am momentarily stepping outside an espousal of the ontological argument or any other argument for theism, even theism itself, for the sake of argument and pure conceivability of other worlds. In fact, the ontological argument itself allows this (as I understand it) because it seems to offer the choice of God as necessary or impossible. If that is the choice that the logic of the ontological argument (viewed as a reductio ad absurdum) entails, then certainly I can conceive of the atheist state of affairs, while not accepting it myself.

Arguing for the basis or non-basis of any premise of any argument is a distinct endeavor from the argument proper itself. Therefore, in arguing for premise A of the ontological argument (however presented), one is not necessarily bound to the logic of the ontological argument itself. One is not yet “in” the conceptual and logical framework of the ontological argument (ontology and modal logic).

What one can conceive as possible is not the equivalent of one’s own belief. One can certainly conceive of a world in which a necessary being did not, in fact, exist. I can conceive of a world in which the Godhead subsisted in four persons rather than three, or one where Jesus died by drinking hemlock, like Socrates, rather than by being crucified. Therefore (if one grants this), one can also conceive other worlds and argue within those theoretical frameworks, in order to look for inconsistencies in opposing arguments.

I hasten to add that this is thought within an exclusively philosophical framework. The Christian, however, believes in attainable knowledge beyond mere philosophy (revelation, experience, legal-historical knowledge, etc.). Theologically, as an orthodox Christian, I don’t believe that God’s existence is contingent or optional at all (nor does St. Thomas Aquinas or any Thomist). The Christian believes that God is the self-existent being and could not not exist. That is (orthodox Christian) framework in which Anselm begins, because he believes in the impossibility of absolute separation of faith and reason (according to the usual medieval synthesis of faith and reason). Faith and reason exist in harmony and do not contradict each other at all.

I wholeheartedly agree, but methodologically, I think it is possible to temporarily separate the two true forms of knowledge, in making particular arguments. This doesn’t entail a suspension of one’s beliefs; it is only a methodological matter. One can play the game of philosophy as if atheism or skepticism were true, in order to examine arguments. In response to the argument against the espousal of the proposition, “God might conceivably exist in other possible worlds,” I reply that His non-existence was conceivable in some possible world.

It is not yet arguing in either the paradigm of the ontological argument or the larger Christian one, to discuss with an atheist the plausibility or non-plausibility of a premise of the ontological argument, which he himself is considering adopting or rejecting. For premises are necessarily (it seems to me) accepted on grounds other than those established by the arguments of which they are but the beginning-point. Otherwise, circularity would obtain.

I think we must distinguish between the following two sets of propositions:

1a. Necessary beings must exist. God is such a being (by definition –the very meaning of the word); therefore He exists.1b. There is such a thing (in possible worlds) as a necessary being, but whether such a being exists or not is a separate issue to be determined. Even if God is defined as such a being (even uniquely so), this does not yet prove (by reason or logic alone) that this God exists. This may be a world such that a given necessary being is not necessarily existent.

Philosopher Graham Oppy, in his paper, On “The Ontological Argument”: A Response To Makin (1991); originally published as “Makin On The Ontological Argument”, Philosophy, 66, 255, January 1991, pp. 106-114, makes the same point as my 1b above:

. . . the discussion of ontological arguments needs to be carried out in the context of a modal logic which allows that accessibility relations between worlds are not–e.g.–symmetric (so that one can say that it is possible for a state of affairs to be necessary and yet for it not to be the case that that state of affairs actually occurs).

2a. God is a contingent being Who happens to exist (just as my four children do, but wouldn’t have if I had never met and married my wife).

2b. The God Who is a contingent being does not, in fact, exist (in the same way that unicorns might, but don’t exist).

The ontological argument excludes 2a and 2b as matters of definition (God by definition cannot be a contingent being). Christianity does the same. Atheists, of course, may define even the theoretical God Whom they disbelieve in such terms. If they claim to be arguing against the God of Christianity, they cannot, of course, do so , because that would entail a fundamental confusion as to the nature of the God with Whom they claim to be dealing in their argument.

I think some of the confusion regarding the ontological argument lies in the distinction between 1a and 1b. Christians believe both that God exists, and that He cannot not exist. He is pure Being or Existence (unlike ourselves, who are His creatures, and entirely contingent upon His decision to create us). Thus, all Christians accept 1a as a matter of course. But Christianity is not philosophy. It may be consistent with true philosophy, and not irrational or incoherent at all (I certainly believe so), but it is something different from philosophy per se. Philosophy simply does not constitute the sum of all knowledge.

Thus, in a philosophical world, apart from the prior beliefs of Christians (which presuppose 1a and therefore exclude in actuality 1b — including St. Anselm, based on Christian theology and belief), one might (wrongly) deny that the being Who is by definition maximally great and self-existent, exists (on various other grounds). In other words, the atheist is not bound by Christian or theistic assumptions (that may be arrived at either philosophically or non-philosophically).

God is a perfect, necessary being, by definition, but atheists need only deny this definition of God or deny that such a God exists at all in order to escape your statement: “God necessarily exists because contingent existence . . . cannot be a property of a perfect being.” The atheist will try to deny that a maximally great being Who possesses these characteristics in the first place, exists in the first place.

I think they are dead wrong, of course, and that they cannot establish this rationally or conclusively, but they are within their “logical rights” to do so, because conceivability does not exclude even a necessary being from existing in the first place. Even the ontological argument (as stated by its advocates) establishes either that God is a necessary being or that His existence is impossible.

It is precisely for this reason that the premise of Plantinga’s ontological argument is so controversial, and why even he admits that the argument does not prove God’s existence, but only that theism is rational. The atheist’s difficulty, on the other hand, is to prove that such a being is inconceivable in actuality or in any possible world (Plantinga’s first premise). I don’t think this can be done, and — that being the case — Plantinga’s argument succeeds in demonstrating the rationality of theism, even though it is not a flat-out proof of theism or disproof of atheism.

I firmly believe that God exists, but on many other grounds. I would agree with Plantinga that belief in God is “properly basic,” and epistemologically equivalent to belief in other minds. On that basis it is entirely warranted and not opposed to reason at all. And that is how every person (of whatever intellectual capacity) can believe in God, without having to master elaborate reasoning like the ontological argument or even the more-easily understood teleological and cosmological arguments.

One can distinguish belief, logic, and conceivability. I believe in one sort of world; I can conceive of many possible worlds, including one without God (I could also conceive of many and accept none; taking an agnostic position). I don’t see how anyone can deny this. It is presupposed every time one sits and watches a science fiction or fantasy movie or reads a novel along those lines. It is assumed (consciously or not) every time one truly understands another point of view that they are critiquing.

For how could someone argue against theism if they don’t have the slightest clue what it is they are arguing against (since they can’t comprehend or “conceive” it)? That makes no sense. But one can obviously conceive situations that would be contradictory if they both existed, as long as one doesn’t assert that they exist simultaneously.

I’m not yet convinced that merely conceptualizing something and calling it by a certain defined word reaches to the level of logical necessity and existence. That’s where my evidentialist and empiricist nature stumbles. But that’s what makes consideration of the ontological argument fun, too, because it is so different from the way I (and many other Christian apologists and philosophers) usually think and analyze things.

Philosophy and faith/religion are two different things. Philosophy can only go so far. The atheist has no supernatural faith, so he is confined to the world of strict philosophical speculation (and scientific knowledge, which is also a branch philosophy, so it all reduces to philosophy). In faith, all Christians think God’s nonexistence is unthinkable, of course. The very concept of God demands this. But I don’t think that can be established by philosophy apart from faith.

I believe that St. Anselm would agree with me because his thought on the ontological argument is strictly within the context of religious faith. He is very explicit about that in his writings. St. Thomas Aquinas, on the other hand, is relatively more concerned about writing to folks who don’t share the same faith (especially in his Summa contra Gentiles). Thus, he tries to find a different epistemological starting-ground. Empiricism makes more sense in that situation, since it is something “other” which can be verified apart from a pre-commitment of some particular worldview or faith.

***

(originally 3-10-03)

Photo credit: Alvin Plantinga: the world’s greatest Christian philosopher; photograph by WhiteKnight138 [Wikimedia Commons /  Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike 4.0 International license]

***

2018-05-20T18:47:54-04:00

This factor was present in the lives of famous atheists Freud, Marx, Feuerbach, Baron d’Holbach, Bertrand Russell, Nietzsche, Sartre, Camus, Schopenhauer, Hobbes, Samuel Butler, H. G. Wells, Carlyle, Madalyn Murray O’Hair, and Albert Ellis
From former atheist Paul Vitz’s article: “The Psychology of Atheism”

The Psychology of Atheism: The Theory of Defective Father

Since there is need for deeper understanding of atheism and since I don’t know of any theoretical framework-except the Oedipal one – I am forced to sketch out a model of my own, or really to develop an undeveloped thesis of Freud. In his essay on Leonardo da Vinci, Freud made the following remark:

Psychoanalysis, which has taught us the intimate connection between the father complex and belief in God, has shown us that the personal God is logically nothing but an exalted father, and daily demonstrates to us how youthful persons lose their religious belief as soon as the authority of the father breaks down. (Leonardo da Vinci, 1910, 1947 p. 98)

This statement makes no assumptions about unconscious sexual desires for the mother, or even about presumed universal competitive hatred focused on the father. Instead he makes the simple easily understandable claim that once a child or youth is disappointed in and loses his or her respect for their earthly father, then belief in their heavenly Father becomes impossible. There are, of course, many ways that a father can lose his authority and seriously disappoint a child.Some of these ways-for which clinical evidence is given below – are:

1. He can be present but obviously weak, cowardly, and unworthy of respect – even if otherwise pleasant or “nice.”

2. He can be present but physically, sexually, or psychologically abusive.

3. He can be absent through death or by abandoning or leaving the family.

Taken all together these proposed determinants of atheism will be called the “defective father” hypothesis. To support the validity of this approach, I will conclude by providing case history material from the lives of prominent atheists, for it was in reading the biographies of atheists that this hypothesis first struck me.We begin with Sigmund Freud’s relationship to his father. That Freud’s father, Jacob, was a deep disappointment – or worse – is generally agreed to by his biographers. (For the supporting biographical material on Freud see, for example, Krull, 1979, and Vitz, 1983, 1986.) Specifically, his father was a weak man unable to financially provide for his family. Instead money for support seems to have been provided by his wife’s family and others. Furthermore, Freud’s father was passive in response to anti-Semitism.

. . . Jacob’s actions as a defective father, however, probably go still deeper. Specifically, in two of his letters as an adult, Freud writes that his father was a sexual pervert and that Jacob’s own children suffered from this. There are also other possible moral disasters that I have not bothered to note.

. . . Very briefly, other famous atheists seem to have had a similar relationship to their fathers. Karl Marx made it clear that he didn’t respect his father. An important part in this was that his father converted to Christianity – not out of any religious conviction-but out of a desire to make life easier. He assimilated for convenience. In doing this Marx’s father broke an old family tradition. He was the first in his family who did not become a rabbi; indeed, Karl Marx came from a long line of rabbis on both sides of his family.

Ludwig Feuerbach’s father did something that very easily could have deeply hurt his son. When Feuerbach was about 13, his father left his family and openly took up living with another woman in a different town. This was in Germany in the early 1800s and such a public rejection would have been a scandal and deeply rejecting to young Ludwig – and, of course, to his mother and the other children.

Let us jump 100 years or so and look at the life of one of America’s best known atheists-Madalyn Murray O’Hair. Here I will quote from her son’s recent book on what life was like in his family when he was a child. (Murray, 1982) The book opens when he is 8-years-old: “We rarely did anything together as a family. Hatred between my grandfather and mother barred such wholesome scenes.” (p. 7) He writes that he really didn’t know why his mother hated her father so much – but hate him she did, for the opening chapter records a very ugly fight in which she attempts to kill her father with a 10-inch butcher knife. Madalyn failed but screamed, “I’ll see you dead. I’ll get you yet. I’ll walk on your grave!” (p. 8)

. . . Besides abuse, rejection, or cowardice, one way in which a father can be seriously defective is simply by not being there. Many children, of course, interpret death of their father as a kind of betrayal or an act of desertion. In this respect it is remarkable that the pattern of a dead father is so common in the lives of many prominent atheists.

Baron d’Holbach (born Paul Henri Thiry), the French rationalist and probably the first public atheist, is apparently an orphan by the age of 13 and living with his uncle. (From whom he took the new name Holbach.) Bertrand Russell’s father died when young Bertrand was 4-years-old; Nietzsche was the same age as Russell when he lost his father; Sartre’s father died before Sartre was born and Camus was a year old when he lost his father. (The above biographical information was taken from standard reference sources.) Obviously, much more evidence needs to be obtained on the “defective father” hypothesis. But the information already available is substantial; it is unlikely to be an accident.

The psychology of how a dead or nonexistent father could lay an emotional base for atheism might not seem clear at first glance. But, after all, if one’s own father is absent or so weak as to die, or so untrustworthy as to desert, then it is not hard to place the same attribute on your heavenly Father.

Finally, there is also the early personal experience of suffering, of death, of evil, sometimes combined with anger at God for allowing it to happen. Any early anger at God for the loss of a father and the subsequent suffering is still another and different psychology of unbelief, but one closely related to that of the defective father.

. . . Let me conclude by noting that however prevalent the superficial motives for being an atheist, there still remain in many instances the deep and disturbing psychological sources as well. However easy it may be to state the hypothesis of the “defective father,” we must not forget the difficulty, the pain, and complexity that lie behind each individual case. And for those whose atheism has been conditioned by a father who rejected, who denied, who hated, who manipulated, or who physically or sexually abused them, there must be understanding and compassion. Certainly for a child to be forced to hate his own father-or even to despair because of his father’s weaknesses is a great tragedy. After all, the child only wants to love his father.

There may indeed be a causal relationship here if, statistically, atheists have a much higher rate of these family problems than theists do. The scientific, inquiring attitude would find this interesting and probe further to see why it is (as Vitz did).

Atheists claim that we Christians project and anthropomorphize God all the time (as, e.g., the pagan Greeks and Romans did with their various mythological gods). Well, perhaps atheists are doing the same thing, yet in the other direction. As fathers were undesirable, so God — the ultimate “father” — could conceivably take on the same characteristics.

Thus Vitz’s research could possibly shed light on why people become atheists (as opposed to the intellectual basis of atheism itself), which is a different proposition. The reasons why one might start to believe that the moon is made of green cheese are quite different from the question: “Is the moon made of green cheese?”

It’s a known fact that people’s relationships with their fathers in particular can have a significant effect on their view of God. This is true in Christian circles (if “father” has negative connotations, it would not be particularly pleasant — on a purely psychological plane — to seek after an even more powerful heavenly father), and it may be true in atheist circles as well, if Vitz is correct in his findings (biographies are quite verifiable, so I don’t see how his facts can be overcome).

It is objected that Vitz’s sample is small and non-random and too subjective. But his research is still interesting, whether or not his sample is statistically sound. The atheists he picked in the article above are certainly very famous and prominent atheists. Surely, the correlation is — by pure chance — disproportionate, just as if we found that all these men (to be Freudian and humorous for a second) had traumatic experiences in potty-training. :-)

If one’s father died when they were very young, the world might seem like a place where fathers were “optional” or “unimportant” in the overall scheme of things, since one had to fend for themselves without a father. The possible parallels with God/atheism are obvious. The cases cited were clearly traumatic and serious. It will do no good for atheists to utterly dismiss all this experiential data. They could, however, produce biographical data on other famous atheists who had wonderful fathers. That would be something interesting to see.

One atheist wrote (on the above-mentioned Internet list):

To put it bluntly and generously, this theory seems to me to be an exercise in bovine scatology. When I was in high school in my spare time I developed a theory and wrote a paper that there were flying saucers in the Bible. Vitz’s theory strikes me as about as plausible as that. Simply, the dynamics of society, culture, genetic predisposition, human physiology and conditioning are complex enough that there are probably, I’d guess, 3-6 different classes of reasons why any given atheist is an atheist . . .

I maintain that causes for belief for atheists and theists alike are various and exceedingly complex. I’ve stated as much many times. I don’t go for simple and single explanations for why people believe things, or supposed “absolute disproofs”. I’m not trying to pry into anyone’s personal life. I’m simply making observations about possible consistency or inconsistency with the proposed theory. I have always been a big proponent of multiple and complex causality, in matters concerning people and what they do and believe. I don’t deny that there are a number of factors which could affect cause and statistics.

From John A. Speyrer’s review of Paul Vitz’s book, Faith of the Fatherless: The Psychology of Atheism:

Faith of the Fatherless: The Psychology of Atheism, Paul
C. Vitz, Ph.D., Spence Publishing Co, Dallas, 1999, pps.
174, $24.95

“Lack of bonding . . . affects the development of spirituality. . . . Very often children create their image of a god or the universe based on their relationship with their parents. Cruel parents, cruel gods.”

— Charlotte D. Kasl, Ph.D., Women, Sex and Addiction

Innumerable articles have been written on the mind-set of believers — all explained by their psychological needs. Dr. Vitz has turned the tables on the atheists by using the same methodology to explain why others have become atheists . . .

A search for the truth of whether God exists does not explain why a particular person is a theist or an atheist. For this reason, the author believes that it is possible to study the origins of the mind-set of individuals who are unbelievers the very same way that atheists have always used to study the psychological reasons why some believe in God.

. . . Freud, in The Future of An Illusion, gave his opinion of the origins of belief in God — the need for security against the unpredictable forces of nature. Freud believed that a person develops a belief in a personal God because of his need for an exulted father. He wrote that when the power of the father breaks down and the child matures, belief in God automatically diminishes.

. . . To buttress his “defective father” hypothesis, NYU professor Vitz uses the biographies of famous, well known individuals, who are mostly from the fields of philosophy and the ministry. He begins with interesting short life histories of well-known atheists from the past three hundred years including, Nietzsche, Hume, Bertrand Russell, Sartre, Camus and Schopenhauer.

Under the heading of “abusive and weak fathers” he includes, Thomas Hobbes, Meilier, Voltaire, d’Alembert, d’Holbach, Feuerbach, Samuel Butler, Freud, H. G. Wells, Carlyle, Madalyn Murray O’Hair and Albert Ellis. These were all shown to have negative father/child relationships during their youth.

As a control group the author examines the lives of individuals known for both their piety and their writings defending Christianity or Judaism. Those include, Pascal, George Berkeley, Joseph Butler, Thomas Reid, Edmund Burke, Moses Mendelssohn, William Paley, William Wilberforce, Chateaubriand, Schleiermacher, Cardinal Newman, de Tocqueville, Samuel Wilberforce, Kierkegaard, von Hugel, G. K. Chesterton, Albert Schweitzer, Buber, Karl Barth, Bonhoeffer and Abraham Heschel.

These individuals were shown to have had positive father/son relationships as there were no early deaths of the father, no abandonment and recorded reciprocal love.

. . . The lives of Stalin, Hitler and Mao are studied in the “political atheists” section. The three were all known for their condemnation of religion and all had histories of having greatly abusive tyrants as fathers.

. . . The author writes that there are exceptions to his general theory of bad fathers and gives us short biographies of Denis Diderot and Karl Marx to illustrate that point. He feels that other exceptions can be readily found.

Can atheism be taught by a loving father? The author believes:

. . . it is possible that a good father who taught his child atheism would nevertheless inadvertently be a model for a benevolent Father/God. Thus, we might expect the children of good atheist fathers often to find themselves learning toward or even converting to theism.

Atheism is a recent phenomenon, but bad fathers have existed since the beginning of humanity so why is atheism a relatively recent belief? Vitz writes that it takes more than a bad father to produce an unbeliever. The culture into which one is born is an important factor. From history we know that prior to a few hundred years ago, it was physically and economically dangerous for one to proclaim his disbelief in God. Even believing heretics were, at times, severely punished.

Excerpt: Faith of the Fatherless: The Psychology of Atheism, by Paul C. Vitz [from Introduction and first chapter]:

Nothing has been more typical of modern public life than the presumption of atheism. In general, historians agree that atheism is a recent and distinctively Western phenomenon and that no other culture has manifested such a widespread public rejection of the divine. James Turner, an historian who has studied the origins of atheism in Western society and in America in particular, has pointed out that “the known unbelievers of Europe and America before the French Revolution numbered fewer than a dozen or two. For disbelief in God remained scarcely more plausible than disbelief in gravity.” America remained more or less an atheist-free nation for many decades into the nineteenth century.Even in intellectual and academic circles, atheism did not become respectable until about 1870, little more than a century ago, and it continued to be restricted to small numbers of intellectuals into the twentieth century. Not until the past half-century has it become a predominant public assumption . . .

Now some might say that the reason for the dominance of atheism is that it is true: there is no God. Whether it is possible to prove the existence of God, it is clearly impossible to prove the nonexistence of God — since to prove the nonexistence of anything is intrinsically impossible. In other words, atheism is an assumption made by certain people about the nature of the world, and these people have been, in the last century, extraordinarily successful at controlling the acceptable view on the matter.

In particular, there seems to be a widespread assumption, throughout much of our intellectual community, that belief in God is based on all kinds of irrational, immature needs and wishes, whereas atheism or skepticism flows from a rational, grown-up, no-nonsense view of things as they really are. To challenge the psychology of this viewpoint is my primary concern.

Atheism has, of course, not simply been the expression of the personal psychology of important atheists: it has received much support from social, economic, and cultural forces. Nevertheless, atheism began in the personal lives of particular people, many of them the leading intellectuals of the modern period, such as Friedrich Nietzsche, Sigmund Freud, Bertrand Russell, and Jean- Paul Sartre. I propose that atheism of the strong or intense type is to a substantial degree generated by the peculiar psychological needs of its advocates.

But why should one study the psychology of atheists at all? Is there any reason to believe that there are consistent psychological patterns in their lives? Indeed, there is a coherent psychological origin to intense atheism. To begin, it should be noted that self-avowed atheists tend, to a remarkable degree, to be found in a narrow range of social and economic strata: in the university and intellectual world and in certain professions.

Today, as a rule, they make up a significant part of the governing class. (Believers, on the other hand, are found throughout the social spectrum.) Given the relatively small number of unbelievers and the limited number of social settings in which they are found, there is certainly an a priori reason for expecting regularity in their psychology.

Nevertheless, the reader might ask if this is not unfair — even uncalled for. Why submit atheism to psychological analysis at all? Is this relevant to the issue of unbelief? Here we must remember that it is atheists themselves who began the psychological approach to the question of belief. Many atheists are famous for arguing that believers suffer from illusions, from unconscious and infantile needs, and from other psychological deficits.

A significant part of the atheist position has been an aggressive interpretation of religious belief as arising from psychological factors, not the nature of reality. Furthermore, this interpretation has been widely influential. In short, the theory that God is a projection of our own needs is a familiar modern position and is, for example, presented in countless university courses. But the psychological concepts used so effectively to interpret religion by those who reject God are double-edged swords that can also, indeed easily, be used to explain their unbelief.

Elsewhere in the book, Vitz states:

Since both believers and nonbelievers in God have psychological reasons for their positions, one important conclusion is that in any debate as to the truth of the existence of God, psychology should be irrelevant. A genuine search for evidence supporting, or opposing, the existence of God should be based on the evidence and arguments found in philosophy, theology, science, history, and other relevant disciplines.

“The Psychology of Atheism”; lecture by Dr. Paul Vitz, September 24, 1997. Notes of the lecture taken by an audience member:
He makes two assumptions about atheism:

1. major barriers to belief are non-rational, that is, psychological
2. all of us have a free choice to reject or accept God

The point is to identify factors that predispose one to atheism. First, Dr. Vitz elaborated on the simpler, more shallow reasons for atheism.

He reviewed his own personal story as an example. He was raised with a somewhat Christian upbringing in Ohio, but became an atheist in college at age 18, and remained so until the age of 38, when he converted, or re-converted to Christianity. Reflection on his own life showed him that his reasons for being an atheist were superficial.

Superficial reasons for atheism:

1. General Socialization– social unease.

E.g. Vitz is from the Mid-west, which is boring and he wanted to be comfortable in the glamorous secular world. Voltaire was embarrassed of his provincial origin cf. flight from Jewish ghetto or fundamentalist Southern background.

2. Desire to be accepted by powerful and influential professors.

He noted that his professors at Stanford animadverted on every psychological topic, but were united in two things: professional
ambition and disbelief in God.

3. Personal convenience.

Belief in God means having to give up pleasures and free time. Mortimer Adler, in his How to Think About God, leaves the impression the the main obstacle to belief for him lies in his own will.

Next, Dr. Vitz moved on to the deeper psychological reasons some people do not believe in God. He reviewed Freud’s critique of belief, his projection theory: human beings are weak and need protection so they project their need by concocting an all-powerful father figure, God. The problem with ad hominem arguments is that they also work on any other belief people might hold, such as belief in scientific theories, and can also be used to reject psychoanalysis as well. Furthermore, the projection theory is refuted by the fact that pre-Christian religions didn’t emphasize God as benevolent father.

Essentially, he summarized, the projection theory is really an autonomous argument and is not dependent on psychology. Bolstering
this assertion is the fact that Feuerbach had previously formulated the same argument in a book that Freud had read. So psychoanalysis is neutral to the projection argument.

. . . Dr. Vitz outlines his “Theory of the Defective Father,” which attempts to explain atheism:

1. father present but weak.
2. father present but abusive.
3. father absent.

Freud’s father, Yakov was weak and had trouble supporting his family and was a sexual pervert. Also he was a liberal Jew, so Freud linked his weakness to his religion.

Hobbes– his father was an Anglican clergyman who abandoned his family.

Feuerbach– his father was a famous legal theorist. At 13, his father abandoned the family to live with another woman, though he later returned when that woman died.

Schopenhauer– couldn’t stand his mother and intially (ages 8-12) was relatively close to his father. At age 16, his father committed suicide.

. . . Albert Ellis is a psychologist hostile to religion. Dr. Vitz was on a panel with him and outlined his theory of the defective father to him. Ellis said the theory didn’t fit him because he got along with his father. In casual conversation, a friend told Vitz that the theory “fits Ellis perfectly.” According to a biography of Ellis, his father abandoned the family and his weak mother was unable to support, so
Ellis and his brother ended up providing everything for themselves. In his twenties, Ellis was polite to his father, though.

Anthony Flew is a philosopher who’s an atheist and the son of a well-known English divine. At a party Flew beat on the floor
exclaiming “I hate my father!”

. . . To conclude, Dr. Vitz read a selection from Russel Baker, the New York Times columnist, describing his sadness and anger at age five when his father died, and how he then became a skeptic.

. . . The point of the profiling of atheists is to remove psychological motives from explaining religious belief. The ad hominem attack on theism posits an immature need for support, but there are psychological causes for atheism as well as theism. So when the atheist attacks a theists beliefs for being childish, the theist can counter, “and so’s your old man!”

So, this argument more or less levels the playing field as far as psychological explanations of belief/disbelief are concerned. However, no one disputes that having a loving father is better than having an unloving father. A loving atheist father will likely set up
his children for theism, just as an S.O.B. theist father will set up his children for atheism.

This is how I look at it, bottom line:

Certainly, no one can deny that atheists have often resorted to psychology to run down Christians and Christianity, as if Christians have no basis other than infantile wishes or projections, to account for their beliefs. I could easily find a few hundred quotes along these lines on the Secular Web and related sites, but why bother? Everyone knows this.

Now, one can either deny the validity of such analyses or claim that they have validity. If the former, then one can move onto serious, substantive philosophical discussions, which (though not exclusively) can give rational basis for religious belief or atheism. If the latter (i.e., if they will not refrain from such speculation), then it is not only fair, but necessary (as a sort of confident, self-respecting counter-apologetics) to apply the same sort of analysis to the atheist, as a sort of rhetorical tactic or method. I don’t see how this is arguable.

So until all atheists refrain from this warmed-over Freudian nonsense, then I will be happy to “turn the tables” and make similar arguments against atheism. I do that with the Problem of Evil and other atheological arguments as well. But the psychological thing is not a serious argument in the first place, whereas the Problem of Evil is a quite respectable and substantive one. The Christian apologist must deal with silly objections as well as solid ones, because there are people who will believe all of these.

My position has always been that such psychological arguments are essentially silly and not worth bothering about. But I agree with Dr. Vitz’s point that this is a counter-response to continued atheist psychoanalysis and insulting insinuations about the lack of brain power and sophistication of Christians. I have always maintained that there are those in either camp who are operating primarily on a psychological plane. Welcome to the reality of humanness. It’s another wash. I’m much more interested in the rational reasons people give, and in multiple causality for religious or atheist belief.

As for emotionalism in general, certainly this could play a legitimate role in one’s overall faith, and is not contradictory to more rational or philosophical reasons for belief. Emotions are part of any rounded human being, so I would expect them to play a part in any worldview which is true. I would also expect questions which are some of the deepest and most profound in life to have some element of emotionalism connected with them. If indeed Christianity is true, it certainly is comforting, and meant to be. Again, this only poses a problem if it is the entire reason a Christian believes what he or she does.

It has been said that Christians use the famous argument of Pascal’s Wager, because it is emotionally comforting, or some sort of rhetorical trick. But it must be understood that Pascal’s Wager was never intended to be an argument for God’s existence or Christianity per se. Christian philosopher and apologist Peter Kreeft explains Pascal’s intention:

. . . it is only for some people: for those who are (1) interested, not indifferent, and (2) doubtful, not certain, either by faith or by reason, concerning the existence of the God of the Bible . . . .The Wager is not an attempt to prove that God exists . . . Rather, it tries to prove that it is eminently reasonable for anyone to ‘bet’ on God, to hope that God is, to invest his life in God. It moves on the practical, existential, human level rather than the theoretical, metaphysical, theological level . . .

It is also addressed to a different audience than are Aquinas’ arguments, for instance. Aquinas’ famous ‘five ways’ of demonstrating that God exists are . . . addressed to believers, to show them that purely logical reasoning confirms the faith they already have in divine revelation. Pascal’s Wager, on the other hand, is addressed to unbelievers, to those who are skeptical of both theoretical reason and revelation . . .

If theoretical, objective, logical, scientific reason could decide this question, we would not need to ‘wager’. If we had proof, we would not need to take a chance. The Wager is addressed only to those who are not convinced that reason can prove theism (God exists) or atheism (God does not exist) . . .

Suppose you were offered a lottery ticket for free. Suppose you knew there was a 50 percent chance it was worth a million dollars, and a 50 percent chance it was worth nothing. Would it be reasonable to take the trouble to accept the gift, to hope at least in it, to trust the giver enough to accept the gift? It would be obvious insanity not to.

To the objection that such ‘belief’ is not yet true faith, the reply is: Of course not, but it is a step on the road to it . . . True faith is not a wager but a relationship. But it can begin with a wager, just as a marriage can begin with a blind date . . .

. . . it is not an argument for the existence of God but an argument for faith. Its conclusion is not ‘Therefore God exists’ but ‘Therefore you should believe’ . . . (Christianity for Modern Pagans, San Francisco: Ignatius Press, 1993, 291, 298, 301, 303 — an extended commentary on Pascal’s Pensees)

Sheer emotionalism or fideism are not biblically based ways of sharing one’s faith. Both Jesus and Paul extensively used intellectual — even theoretical — arguments of all sorts. Paul is often described in the Book of Acts “reasoning” or “arguing” with Jews and Greeks. So Christians who approach their faith on exclusively emotional terms are neither in accord with the Bible nor the mainstream history of orthodox Christianity (Augustine, Aquinas, Anselm, more recent apologists like C. S. Lewis, Chesterton, etc.). But people are people, so we should expect the corruption of any good thing.

I say that far too many Christians engage in emotionalism and irrationalism because they have been falsely taught (mostly by surrounding culture and the secular history of ideas, but often within Christianity as well) that faith and reason are diametrically opposed. But I thought atheists were supposed to be so much more educated, intellectual, and sophisticated? Why, then, do they so often utilize “arguments” that are invalid and insubstantial? Is this simply emotionalism as well? In other words: perhaps atheists are so fed up with what they consider nonsense and moral and intellectual hypocrisy or shallowness from Christians, that they say stupid things in response, out of sheer frustration or something?

Atheists have been called plenty of names by Christians, and their resentment and knee-jerk reactions are understandable. On the other hand, being called backward, ignorant, retrogressive, reactionary, irrational, anti-scientific, gullible, given to infantile psychological crutches, goodie-two-shoes, puritanistic, homophobes, women-haters, holier-than-thou, hypocrites, and a host of other things builds resentment amongst Christians too. That’s why both parties need to simply communicate more. The name-calling on both sides accomplishes nothing but resentment and ill will.

I would go further into “psychological analysis” and contend that some atheists disavow God primarily for reasons of sexual freedom. Aldous Huxley actually admitted this, concerning his own life. In Ends and Means (1937), he frankly confessed that his reasons for arguing against Christianity were not unbiased and objective philosophical ones. He ‘had an agenda’:

I had motives for not wanting the world to have a meaning; and consequently assumed that it had none, and was able without any difficulty to find satisfying reasons for this assumption. The philosopher who finds no meaning in the world is not concerned exclusively with a problem in pure metaphysics. He is also concerned to prove that there is no valid reason why he personally should not do as he wants to do.

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For myself, as no doubt for most of my friends, the philosophy of meaninglessness was essentially an instrument of liberation from a certain system of morality. We objected to the morality because it interfered with our sexual freedom. The supporters of this system claimed that it embodied the meaning – the Christian meaning, they insisted – of the world. There was one admirably simple method of confuting these people and justifying ourselves in our erotic revolt: we would deny that the world had any meaning whatever.

The flip side of this mentality is that Christianity (or the Bible, or Paul) is said to be “anti-sex”. I vehemently deny this. It is anti-sex-outside-of-marriage, which is not anti-sex, but rather, anti- what we would call (whether one agrees or not) improper or immoral or disordered sex. That is a completely different question. To say that x is to be enjoyed within proper parameters or bounds is not the same thing as saying that x is “bad” or “evil” through and through. But this is a very common misperception.

Apparently, our culture (however we wish to categorize it: I call it post-modern, post-Christian secular society) thinks it is “free” and “liberated” to commit adultery, break up homes, betray and/or kill children, write “music” which is completely degrading to women, equating them with their sexual organs and lowering them to mere objects for male lustful fulfillment (in a word, whores, or “hoes”), obtain AIDS and various venereal diseases (which were almost non-existent 40 years ago), to become addicted to pornography as another “liberation” and “casting off of ‘Puritan’ inhibition” (which has statistically been tied to pedophilia and sometimes spousal abuse), etc., etc. Wow; really “free” huh?

But are all these promiscuous folks really happier than the “straight-laced” Christians (or atheists) who remain faithful to one partner? Was Marilyn Monroe ever “happy”? Or Hugh Hefner (the “inside story” of one of his daughters, who became a Christian, is fascinating)? Wilt Chamberlain supposedly bedded 100,000 women, but later said it was much more meaningful and fulfilling to have sex with one woman 100,000 times, than with 100,000 women one time.

I’ve stated before and I will again: many, many studies have shown the sexual satisfaction of devoted Christian couples who are serious about their faith significantly higher than that of their “wild, liberated” counterparts (and they have much lower divorce rates, too). Why? Because sex with a person you really, deeply love and have a lifelong commitment to is infinitely more meaningful, and hence, exciting and enjoyable (sex being 90% psychological or non-physical), than with someone who may be gone the next week, and whom you know has done this with dozens of other partners.

You never know if they are fantasizing about some other, or thinking you are a lot worse of a sexual partner than some other. That is a recipe for disaster. We now know that co-habitation before marriage will significantly lower one’s chances for a happy, lengthy marriage as well. The sociological data is all there. One need not read the Bible to learn all of this (though it doesn’t hurt).

I’ve been told that atheists are much more “conservative” sexually than one might think. I hope so, in light of the overwhelming sociological confirmation that monogamy and abstinence before marriage works best for long-term happiness and sexual fulfillment.

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Paul Vitz’s argument is a completely justifiable rhetorical, turning-the-tables tactic along the lines of “you wish to argue that Christians are psychologically warped and in need of infantile crutches?; very well then, I submit the same sort of speculations a, b, and c with regard to atheists.” Such an argument, it should be noted, does not necessarily mean that the one making it agrees with all (or even any) of the content.

But at least in Paul Vitz’s research, he showed a clear and not-easily-dismissed contrast between the early lives of several famous atheists and those of famous theists. He had a control group. Sure, it’s neither scientific nor a properly random sample, etc., but it was interesting, and offered something objective.

It’s always easier, it seems, to dish out a particular criticism (the psychological arguments as to why Christians hold their beliefs) than it is to see its possible relevance to one’s own view. I readily admit that some Christians do indeed need psychological crutches (but so what, I say; who cares about the poorest representatives of any view?). But I have seen precious little of atheists admitting similar types of shortcomings to any extent amongst atheists. I maintain that the percentage of psychological abnormality is likely to be the same in both groups.

No one on the list explained Vitz’s control group of Christians having good relationships with their fathers, and the atheists having the opposite. How can one see no statistically significant factors there whatever; not even anything remotely interesting or thought-provoking? One doesn’t even have to agree with something to regard it as curious or interesting.

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(originally from 7-4-01. Revised 1-14-02)

Photo credit: famous atheist philosopher Bertrand Russell (1872-1970) [public domain / Wikimedia Commons]

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2018-05-10T11:35:09-04:00

This occurred underneath my post, “Does God Ever Judge People by Sending Disease?” Raymond is some sort of non-theist or atheist. His words will be in blue.

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Is there going to be a Part Two to this post? You paint a particularly repulsive picture of God here.

I have material about God’s love and mercy as well. Just because I wrote about judgment, doesn’t mean that that is all I and Christians believe about God. For example:

“God’s ‘Valentine’ to Us: Bible Passages on God’s Love, Mercy, and Compassion”

That’s “Part Two.” The Bible says that God is Love and the life of Jesus illustrates that rather dramatically. The Bible also teaches that He is the judge of the world. The two are not mutually exclusive. We don’t say that human judges are wicked and evil because they pass sentence (following jury verdicts) for someone to go to jail. We recognize that as due punishment for crimes.

Or see my paper, “Loving Ourselves According to How Much God Loves Us”.

“Does God ever judge people by sending disease?” YES! You can be judged by disease because of your wickedness, or your disobedience, or because the King was wicked or disobedient, . . .

That was true for the Egyptians (who may have been worthy of judgment as a people), but not in the case of 2 Chronicles 21:12-14, where the “unfaithfulness” of the people was judge-worthy; not just because the king was wicked. It says he led them into it, but they had a free will.

. . . or so that the works of God might be made manifest in [you], or because you are righteous(!), or even just because. AND “God presents judgment as a possibly imminent catastrophe due to an unexpected death.” So if there is a flood or hurricane or forest fire, and you are killed, it’s because you had it coming.

I never said such a stupid and ridiculous thing. You said it because you seem (in this instance) to be unable to make proper distinctions of category and logic. When I wrote, “God presents judgment as a possibly imminent catastrophe due to an unexpected death” the meaning was clear from the passages I cited: Death can come at any time for any of us, and that will be a personal catastrophe if we are not ready, because we’ll be judged, and if we are unrepentant, we’ll go to hell.

You completely misinterpreted it. The “catastrophe” was death itself, rather than saying that floods, hurricanes, or forest fires are necessarily God’s judgments.

I really really hope there is a follow up post. “Does God ever judge people by sending disease?” BOY does He ever! Do people get disease or die in a catastrophe and it is NOT a judgment? We are ALL wicked with no recovery on our own, after all.

I gave the examples of Job and Paul, which you alluded to above: “because you are righteous(!).” I also gave the passage of John 9:1-3 and observed that “it’s not the case that everyone who has a disease, has it because of 1) sin or 2) God’s judgment. This will usually not be the case.” I also wrote: “What we see above is not “normative” judgment.”

If some people are afflicted so that the works of God might be made manifest, does that mean these people, even if they are righteous, are suffering as an example for US? Forget THAT!

Suffering and the problem of evil are very serious difficulties to be grappled with and mysterious aspects of God, and require very serious treatments (which I give them in many papers). We can’t understand everything, but I don’t find that the above analysis is all that difficult to understand. God judges, as the Creator.

He desires that none perish, but He does judge folks for the sins that they willingly commit. He doesn’t cause anyone to sin, but He judges them for their sins.

This post, as it stands, justifies my lack of belief in God. Better that there is no supernatural “objective” moral authority than to think that we somehow deserve what suffering we get, and sometimes we DON’T deserve it, but a good person’s suffering is somehow a warning to US!

It’s virtually certain that your lack of belief in God is for many reasons besides this, though atheists often use a caricature of the biblical God to reject “Him.” If you can misunderstand this paper of mine this badly, I’m sure there are many other doctrines of Christianity that you have also misunderstood, leading you to (in all likelihood) rejection of a straw man and not the actual thing (Christianity).

Christianity requires a lot of study, learning, and thinking. It’s not a simple religion of slogans and trite ideas. It has complexities and mysteries (as does God). But we can understand quite a bit of we are willing and open to it.

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(originally 10-30-17 on Facebook)

Photo credit: Logo for Wikipedia policies, by Ibrahim.ID (9-1-15) [Wikimedia Commons /  Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike 4.0 International license]

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