November 3, 2016

GayFlag

– Photo credit: ‘Theodoranian’, CC-BY-SA-3.0, via Wikimedia Commons

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This exchange came about in response to comments underneath my National Catholic Register article, “History of the False Ideas Leading to Same-Sex ‘Marriage'” (11-2-16). Mark  is a lawyer (actually a former one and currently a PhD student). I love tangling with legal minds, so that makes it all the more fun. But I think I demonstrate below that even great legal minds somehow miss the most crucial details in opposing views, and hence argue fallaciously or irrelevantly. Mark’s words will be in blue.

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I highly doubt the National Catholic Register will publish my comment so I decided to send it to you personally. 

It is obvious that NCR allows free speech and dissent against expressed opinions, isn’t it? One of the respondents wrote personally to me, in fears that his comment wouldn’t be printed here. It was.

I am at least one of the commentators who emailed you personally (perhaps there are others, I do not know). And yes I did assume that the NCR would not post my comment. I applaud the fact that they did so. They deserve credit for allowing a discussion and I should not have assumed that they would shrink from it.

I appreciate your fair-mindedness.

If someone actually interacts with the arguments I have made (rather than phantom ones that I have not made here), I’ll be happy to interact with that. This is my standard policy on my blog, Facebook page, etc. I have neither time nor desire to contend about everything under the sun. I make specific arguments and am committed to defending those against scrutiny, not to wrangling about  straw men and caricatures of caricatures and stereotypes that were never my arguments in the first place.

Marriage has never been solely about pro-creation. We have always allowed elderly couples to marry. We have always allowed the infertile to marry. Not once have we ever revoked a marriage because a couple decided not to procreate. Not once have we even bothered to ask an engaged couple if they intended to procreate. You can repeat this line as much as you like but repetition will not make it true.

To clarify one thing that has been brought up which is at least somewhat related to my argument: There is nothing in Catholic teaching which forbids sex at times when it is determined that the woman is infertile, or in the case of a post-menopausal woman, or one who cannot bear children at all, or a sterile man. That’s fine, because it doesn’t involve a deliberate decision to ignore fertility and frustrate its natural course.

Sex during pregnancy or post-menopause is fine, because no one is deliberately trying to avoid conception. That has been taken out of the equation by God’s will for the ending of the reproductive capacity in the post-menopausal woman and the inability of a pregnant woman to conceive during that time.

Being open to life means there is no contralife will, wherein the evil lies. The Church has never opposed sex during menstruation or other infertile times in the woman’s cycle (Natural Family Planning incorporates all those things), or between a man and a woman who is infertile, or between a man with an inadequate sperm count and a woman, or for older couples (i.e., post-menopausal women). These situations do not involve the deliberate artificial suppression of what might or could happen, because fertility is rendered impossible or highly unlikely due to reasons other than the couple’s deliberate acts of artificial prevention. We hold that one must be open to life in the sexual act, or else abstain if the woman is fertile and a child is not desired at that particular time.

This claim has been shot down in dozens of courts.

Mine was not essentially a legal argument, though it touched upon legal decisions such as Griswold and of course Roe v. Wade. So this is a non sequitur in terms of my argument, which was exactly what the title conveyed.

Your claim that homosexuality leads to bad health outcomes has been roundly debunked, but even if we accepted your claim: so what?

Really? Here is a list of some of the diseases found frequently and disproportionately among male homosexual practitioners:

Anal Cancer
Chlamydia trachomatis
Cryptosporidium
Giardia lamblia
Herpes simplex virus
Human immunodeficiency virus
Human papilloma virus
Isospora belli
Microsporidia
Gonorrhea
Viral hepatitis types B & C
Syphilis
hemorrhoids
anal fissures
anorectal trauma
retained foreign bodies

See:

Anne Rompalo, “Sexually Transmitted Causes of Gastrointestinal Symptoms in Homosexual Men,” Medical Clinics of North America, 74(6): 1633-1645 (November 1990)

“Sexually Transmitted Diseases and Infections” (Remedy’s Health.com Communities) [7-31-01]

“Anal Health” (Remedy’s Health.com Communities) [7-31-01]

“Anal Sex Safety and Health Concerns” (WebMD)

“Anal Sex,” Dr. David Delvin / NetDoctor (11-25-13)

See much more related medical data about increased health risks entailed in homosexual sex, in one of my many past papers on the general topic. As for your “so what?” reply, it’s loving to inform people of behaviors that may subject them to serious health risks, not loving to pretend that they aren’t there, and to refuse to inform people of what they are entitled to know.

Yet invariably, folks are blasted for mentioning these factors. So be it. I don’t stop being loving stop telling the truth because I get called names and am despised for it.

Soldiers and coal miners also fare worse than the average individual. Do we deny them the right to marry? Children raised by the poor fare worse than those raised by the rich. Do we deny them the right to marry? Would you ever even consider such an argument – so why do you consider it when homosexuals are involved? I think I know the answer.

Non sequiturs all. As I said, I’m not arguing about rights in this immediate context. I’m simply recounting the evolution of the ideas leading to “gay marriage”: from a Catholic perspective. I understand many don’t agree. That doesn’t change Catholic teaching and certain indisputable facts as to how the current cultural-legal situation came about. The essential element of the discussion is, of course, the definition of marriage. Until just last year, that meant a legal (and for Catholics, also sacramental and mystical, as well as physical) union between a man and a woman. So, call me a bigot or whatever you like, for holding what US law maintained its entire history until last year; for holding what even President Obama and Bill and Hillary Clinton held till just a short time ago (or were they lying and being insincere, as so often?), and for holding to Catholic teaching.

I believe the Catholic Church has always required the ability to procreate for marriage to be allowed (though they routinely look the other way with elderly couples and the like). At least that’s what the Jesuits taught me.

They require the willingness to be open to children and to not contracept, if fertility is present. But if a couple is involuntarily infertile, that is no impediment to marriage. Thus, for example, the Church has no objection to two 80-year-olds marrying (say if both are widowed). It doesn’t object to the marriage of a man or woman who (after marriage) become infertile due to disease, etc.

The idea that any God would give a damn how two consenting adults express love towards one another, when that expression doesn’t harm a solitary soul, should be absurd on its face.

First of all, it does at least potentially harm people: both those who engage in the forbidden activities, and possibly others, due to the health risks, some of which are contagious. Secondly, of course if there is a God Who created sex, then it is altogether to be expected that He will have something to say about what proper / natural and improper / unnatural sex is. That gets into natural law and the very nature of things. What’s ridiculous is the notion that (granting God’s existence), God couldn’t care less about how human beings behave, He cares very deeply, which is why He gave us rules for conduct, for our own good and fulfillment.

If I actually thought that God was obsessed over consensual love, and determined to torture human beings eternally for expressing it,

People choose to reject God in their own free will, and that is why they end up in hell, not because God is supposedly some Divine Sadist. Do you really think I’d be stupid enough to get sidetracked in a discussion about hell? I only give it these three sentences in passing.

then I sure as hell wouldn’t worship that God. A God like that would be an immoral monster by any definition. You might as well tell me that God will torture people eternally for liking basketball because he likes baseball. It makes equal sense.

Basketball doesn’t violate natural law. A denial that marriage is exclusively between a man and a woman, and a denial of procreation as the most important essence of that union is a denial of natural law. You would agree (I assume) that rape or pedophilia are wrong and/or violate the natural order. We simply believe that of more acts than you do, and we have many reasons for why we believe so.

As for your comment that you would engage non-straw-man arguments, I don’t know if you were referring to my arguments specifically –

Some of them, as I have noted above. Virtually none of the comments I have seen, have directly dealt with my particular argument. It’s mostly boilerplate pro-homosexual polemics, that I have seen a million times, and know backwards and forwards by now.

but I do note that you have seemingly not responded to any critiques of your argument.

Precisely because I have seen almost none . . .

My concern, however, is with my critiques.

Naturally so!

I claim you have argued that the ability to procreate is “primary and essential” to the institution of marriage. If you consider that a straw-man please explain how I have miss-characterized your claim.

I didn’t argue it here; I assumed it (“The primary, essential purpose of marriage is procreation: producing of children as the fruit of the sexual oneness of a married couple.”). I have argued and defended it many times, elsewhere. This particular piece was written in a Catholic magazine primarily to Catholics. When one is targeting a specific audience (by and large), they need not defend and detail every commonly held premise. And so I did not. And I also had just 1000 words to make my fairly complex and multifaceted historical argument.

I responded that the legal conception of marriage has never considered the ability to procreate to be primary or essential because that ability has never been required for marriage at any point in our nation’s history, either at the licensing phase or thereafter:

And that was perfectly irrelevant to my argument, which was not primarily a legal one, but an analysis of how false ideas evolve, from a Catholic and broadly “traditional marriage” perspective. Legally, I agree, but if we talk in terms of culture, it was understood and assumed that the married couple would produce children. No one had to argue that. In the past, the average number of children was considerably higher than it is now. My father had five siblings. My mother-in-law had four. My wife has five. I had two. Now the average children per couple is about 1.8 or so. My wife and I (believing in the goodness of procreation and Catholic teaching) have four children, and would have had more, but for miscarriages and other health problems, and a low income.

If you are referring to your particular, religious conception of marriage, as I said previously I do not care.

Yeah, I know, but this page is about my argument, not yours. I’m talking about a Catholic conception of the history of ideas concerning marriage, and you only care about the legal history, which is an entirely distinct topic.  This is totally to be expected: you being a lawyer, and me being a Catholic apologist. But the topic remains mine, not yours. I defend my arguments. I don’t follow every rabbit trail just because someone wants to do that. In another time and place, fine, but here the topic is what the title of my paper says it is.

This debate concerns the legal institution of marriage.

That’s your concern, not mine in this paper, except for tangentially (because law necessarily reflects — as well as influences — the surrounding culture). My argument here is not, “why same-sex unions should not be legal” but rather, “how same-sex unions came about.” It’s an historical survey, and throughout I assume many Catholic views, rather than contending for them at every turn.

You can have whatever religious conception of marriage you like. My claim is that the ability to procreate has never been considered primary or essential to the legal institution of marriage.

I don’t dispute that, if we mean solely a civil legal perspective. It has nothing to do with my article.

Your argument – as it applies to the legal institution of marriage -is not new. As I noted it has been offered to, and rejected by, dozens of courts. It has been rejected because it is demonstrably false.

You just can’t get away from law . . . I think if you try hard enough, you really can walk and chew gum at the same time. I think you have it in ya.

. . . I do not believe that there was ever a point in our nation’s history where the majority of the population would look at a childless couple and claim: they are not truly married. I do not believe there has ever been a point in our nation’s history where the majority of the population would point to the marriage of an elderly couple and say: they are not truly married. Nor do I believe that there has ever been a time in our nation’s history when a married couple has announced their intent to not have children and the majority thus concluded: they are not truly married.

In the past, it was understood that married couples should have children; that this was fundamental to it. One rarely found a (fertile) couple who expressly decided not to have children. Now it’s common. My brother did this, and two of my wife’s brothers have also. And that is because up till the 60s our society was a more or less Christian culture, and contraception was regarded in those circles as gravely sinful. That was true of Protestants, Orthodox, and Catholics alike. The first time in history any Christian body accepted contraception as permissible (and only in hard cases) was the Anglicans in 1930. That very fact, when I was informed of it, was a bombshell to me, and was the first area where I changed my mind, in my conversion from evangelical Protestant to Catholic, in 1990.

As time has gone on, Protestants have largely accepted contraception and a certain anti-child mentality, leading to most of their major denominations being in favor of legal abortion. Thus, today, Catholics alone fully preserve the older outlook as regards marriage and children (procreation), and this is why you think my view is strange and a cultural backwater: thoroughly antiquated and non-mainstream. In our secular culture of today you are, of course, correct. As I already noted, elderly couples, etc., do not pose any contradiction to Catholic teaching. The fact that you think it would only shows that you are unfamiliar with our actual teachings on the life issues and procreation.

Your argument, frankly, is awash in logical fallacies and falsehoods.

That’s funny; this is what I think of yours: at least in part.

It fails to understand constitutional jurisprudence in ways that I can’t even begin to catalog (and yes, I am a lawyer).

I wasn’t dealing with constitutional jurisprudence. I only mentioned some of the legal highlights on our way to legal abortion and same-sex “marriage.” That’s your area. Mine is Catholic apologetics and the history of ideas (which I happen to love as an area of study).

It also seethes with the tendency to treat homosexuals differently than any other group. There is a reason that 64 of 65 courts that have considered the matter within the last 40 years have found no legal reason to deny homosexuals the right to marry (and the solitary exception, the precursor to Obergefell, did not find merit to the anti-SSM marriage arguments; it merely stated that it was bound by precedent).

The Supreme Court certainly wasn’t thinking this way in Bowers v. Hardwick in 1986, when it upheld anti-sodomy laws. That’s 30 years ago, not 40. But we would fully expect the Christian notion of marriage to be progressively broken down over time, because secularism is at war with most tenets of Christianity and many tents of traditional morality.

This is not a fight you are going to win. I think you know that.

Legally, no, but in terms of what is true and right, one “wins” by proclaiming it.

But your loss is not a valiant defeat in the pursuit of the good fight. It is a failed attempt to solidify bigotry and injustice.

Right; I’m a hateful troglodyte bigot. I expected more from you. But it really doesn’t surprise me, because this is so common, and indeed I predicted it in my paper: “Today, no one can disagree with what anyone else does without being accused of being “hateful” and “intolerant.” To disagree is to be a bigot and a bad person. That is the fruit of moral relativism.” You have now made civil, constructive dialogue impossible. But I’ll answer what you have stated so far. Then we’re through, because I refuse to continue on with someone who is convinced I am a bigot and hateful person.

And like those who enlisted religion in the defense of segregation before you, history will not look kindly upon your efforts. I truly hope you reconsider.

I am not likely to reconsider Catholicism. I’ve been a Catholic for 26 years and I only become more and more convinced of its truthfulness across the board, as I defend its doctrines.

I’m probably  going to far afield here but this post also resuscitates what I like to call the “solitary purpose” fallacy. It essentially rests on the notion that sexuality has one purpose, procreation, and no other.

That’s news to me. You seem to have some difficulty reading (and/or comprehending views not your own. I made it clear enough in my article (2nd paragraph): “That’s not to deny the unitive/pleasurable function of marriage, but it [procreation] is the most important purpose.”

This simply makes no sense. Things can have more than one purpose. My mouth has the purpose of both breathing and eating. Likewise sexuality can have the purpose of procreation and pleasure. Catholic theology, from Aquinas to George, has never squared this circle.

We agree totally. That’s why Pope Paul VI in his famous 1968 encyclical, Humanae Vitae, which reiterated the Catholic prohibition of contraception, talked about the unitive and procreative purposes of marriage. Every time a man has sex with a pregnant or menstruating, or otherwise non-fertile, or post-menopausal woman, the primary purpose is unitive and pleasure.

It could also rest on the related argument, the primary purpose argument. It goes like this, the PRIMARY purpose of sexuality is procreation -thus using it for pleasure alone is wrong. This also makes no sense.

At least here you present actual Catholic teaching, rather than a straw man distortion of it. Congratulations!

The mere fact that one uses something for a function outside of its primary purpose does not make it wrong. The primary purpose of my hands is most certainly not to walk upon them. And yet no one here would declare it “morally wrong” for me to walk upon my hands. This is what the author is arguing here. He asserts that the primary purpose of sexuality is procreation and thus using it for pleasure alone is wrong.

There are various arguments that can be made, and I have made many of them. One analogy I like to use is to eating. Eating has two components: health, and the pleasure of the taste buds and flavor. Most would readily agree that the primary purpose of food is nutritional. But they also acknowledge that the pleasure of taste is also a key component, if not the most deeply essential one.

Now, let’s examine for a moment how people regard eating; how they casually think about it, without thinking too much about it. How do we regard folks who deliberately separate the two functions? How do we regard a guy who only eats terrible-tasting food, like bark or something, and avoids good taste altogether? Well, we think he is very eccentric, and, um, unnatural. Conversely, what do we think of the person who eats only for pleasure: the junk food junkie? We think he or she is very weird, too, and doesn’t “get” it. That’s one example of two things relating to one activity that we assume without thinking ought to go together and not be separated.

It doesn’t mean that we never have a banana split. It means that we know that a human being does not properly only eat banana splits and Butterfinger candy bars and cotton candy at every meal.

That does not logically follow no matter how you slice it. You have to establish WHY using sex for pleasure is wrong.

That’s a long discussion (about why sex for pleasure to the exclusion of procreation, and with a contralife will is wrong), and most in today’s culture cannot grasp it: at least not at first exposure to traditional natural law moral reasoning. Pope Paul VI told us in Humanae Vitae (read it!) what would happen if society went down this path, and almost all of it has come to pass. The bad fruit indicates that the thing itself is bad and evil. I’ve debated and dialogued about contraception many times through the years (asterisked papers mean that they are from Internet Archive and take a minute or two to load):

Contraception: Early Church Teaching (William Klimon) [1998] *

Dialogue on Contraception [1998] *

Dialogue on the Ethical Distinction Between Artificial Contraception and Natural Family Planning (NFP) [2-16-01] *

Books by Dave Armstrong: Family Matters: Catholic Theology of the Family [Dec. 2002]

Why Did God Kill Onan? Luther, Calvin, Wesley, C.S. Lewis, & Others on Contraception [2-9-04] *

Contraception and the “Fewer Children is Better” Mentality: the Opposition of Martin Luther, John Calvin, and Other Protestants [2-21-04] *

Biblical Evidence Against Contraception [5-3-06]

Dialogue on Contraception & Natural Family Planning (NFP) (vs. Grubb) [5-16-06] *

Secular Social Science Vindicates Catholic Moral Teaching / Important Evangelical Protestants Rethinking Contraception (W. Bradford Wilcox) [12-12-06] *

Dialogue: Why Did God Kill Onan? Why is Contraception Condemned by the Catholic Church? [3-15-07] *

Protestant Compromise, Radical Secularism, and Racist Eugenics: The Contraception Debate: 1900-1940 [5-19-07] *

Replies to Questions on Catholic Teaching Regarding Contraception and Sexual Morality [1-1-08] *

Critique of the “Quiverfull” and “Divine Family Planning” Positions on Childbirth (That Oppose Catholic Natural Family Planning) [9-20-08] *

Bible on the Blessing of [Many] Children [3-9-09]

Discussion Thread About NFP, Contraception, and Marriage [Facebook, 8-3-11]

Protestants, Contraception, the Pill, & NFP [8-12-11]

Demographics, Large Families, and Spiritual Revivals [3-24-12]

NFP and “Contraceptive Intent” [Facebook, 8-28-13]

Biblical Data Against Contraception: Onan’s Sin and Punishment: a Concise “Catholic” Argument  [3-7-14]

Catholics Reproducing Like “Rabbits”: The Essential Silliness of the Clueless Perceptions of Pope Francis’ Perfectly Catholic and Orthodox Remarks [1-21-15]

Was Pope Francis Correct in Publicly Rebuking as “Irresponsible” a Woman Who Had Had Seven C-Sections?  [1-23-15]

Why for instance, is masturbation morally wrong? Merely stating that masturbation is not the primary purpose of the parts involved does not cut it.

I’ve dealt with that also, but not nearly as much as contraception and abortion:

Dr. James Dobson Sanctions Masturbation (+ Part II) (with E. L. Hamilton) [3-14-04 / 9-7-05] *

Debate on Masturbation (vs. Steve Hays) [1-6-07]

Response to Steve Hays’ Further Defense of (Oops, Sorry, “Neutral” Stance on) Masturbation [1-6-07] *

Masturbation Reference in Sermon on the Mount? [10-18-11]

You’re a self-described apologist. Maybe you can take a stab.

As you can see, I have. Many hundreds of people have informed me that my writings played a role in their becoming Catholics, so I have been fairly successful at what I do, too.  I’ve defended the Catholic faith, and have persuaded (by God’s grace and with the necessary primary influence of the Holy Spirit) those people to become Catholics.

If you want to see how I argue about homosexuality, I have plenty of those interactions, too, listed on my Sexuality and Gender web page. Thus, I’m the last person you can sensibly protest against for not having explained and defended my positions (at the greatest length). You know from my sidebar blurb that I am a Catholic apologist. This is what I have been doing for the last 35 years. I have 49 published books and 2000+ papers online (counting the older Internet Archive ones).

Ok. First of all, I really don’t give a damn about your theology. Your theology is your own and you’re entitled to it (I would strongly defend your right to it as well). If you want to claim that your article was not attacking the LEGAL recognition of same sex marriage then fine. As I said in my response I am only concerned with the legal institution of marriage. I think I made that clear. Though we should be honest with one another, I strongly suspect that you oppose the legal recognition of same sex marriage as well. Am I wrong? 

No. That’s quite obviously presupposed throughout my entire article. I deny that it is “marriage” at all, which is why I refuse to give it the title, and always put it in quotation marks if the word “marriage” is in the description. Quite obviously, then,  I can hardly favor legal same-sex “marriage” if I deny that it is marriage at all. 

I was merely noting (in reply to your constant “legal-only” emphases) that my approach in the article was not a legal approach (only tangentially at best), but rather the history of ideas, which is much more philosophy and ethics (with theological underlying assumptions) than law.

As for your response to the “dire health consequences” of homosexuality: that entire list appears to apply to heterosexual conduct as well. And you are aware, I hope, that heterosexuals also engage in anal sex.
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The argument is exactly the same in either case, and is actually part of my overall argument: sex that is non-procreative by its very nature (whether heterosexual or homosexual) is wrong, unnatural, and unhealthy. Catholic theology condemns it, no matter who does it: gay or straight. That’s why I built my whole case against homosexual “marriage” from the building block of contraception, because that seeks to separate sexuality from the procreation which is its essence. 
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Moreover I assume, by your logic, that you’re just fine with lesbian sex; many of the maladies you cite would not apply to them (while they would apply to heterosexual sex).
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Again, since it is entirely non-procreative, it is mortally sinful according to Catholic teaching.
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In fact I believe they are far less likely to contract or pass STDs then even heterosexual couples. So you’re cool with that right?
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I’m glad they have less risk of serious disease, but that doesn’t make the behavior moral or natural. Many lesbians, we know, are promiscuously bisexual, so they expose themselves to much risk in that way
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Because obviously, what’s at issue here isn’t just that you find homosexuals gross, it’s that you’ve conducted a fair assessment of the risks involved and made an objective cost-benefit analysis.
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You assert natural law. You have no basis to do so (that which is presented without evidence can be dismissed without evidence). It sure as hell doesn’t have any LEGAL relevance which, again, is all I care about. 
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Legally, I agree, but if we talk in terms of culture, it was understood and assumed that the married couple would produce children. No one had to argue that.
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I literally have no idea how you can argue that. Where in God’s name are you getting this from?  It’s also not even supporting your point, which was: the ability to procreate is considered essential to marriage (culturally). As I pointed out earlier, we have always allowed the elderly to marry. No one at any point considered their marriages false, and they sure as hell didn’t expect them to have children.  Sorry but you can’t get out of this one; the ability to procreate has NEVER been considered essential to marriage. Not legally, and not culturally either (religiously perhaps – but again, don’t care). Your assertion that people assumed most married couples would have children in no way proves that the ability to procreate was culturally considered to be essential to marriage.  The example of the elderly couple quite clearly disproves your point. 
 
As for the bigotry. I don’t think you’re a bigot, but if you believe that legal marriage should be denied to homosexual couples then I certainly find that belief bigoted. Just as I would consider the belief that blacks could not marry whites racist. 

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See ya. You say I’m not a bigot, yet you say I defend beliefs that you find bigoted. Isn’t that what we call a distinction without a difference? I simply say that we have an honest disagreement. Why isn’t that sufficient anymore? Why must the bigot card be played every time? But in any event, we’re done because of that. I don’t put up with it.

You’re not even following my arguments, and seem to be increasingly exasperated. I don’t expect anyone to understand Catholic reasoning anymore (especially in the realm of procreation), because they have had so little exposure to it. You abundantly show that here.

Lastly (it just occurred to me right now), as you kept commenting, you increasingly challenged me to explain my views in more depth: to — in effect — be an apologist and argue like one. You wrote: “You have to establish WHY using sex for pleasure is wrong.” And: “Why for instance, is masturbation morally wrong? . . . You’re a self-described apologist. Maybe you can take a stab.” So I did that, which necessarily involves theology, because that forms much of the basis for my objection (along with more secular or “theologically neutral” arguments such as health risks and analogies such as the one to eating).
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Then you come back with,
“I really don’t give a damn about your theology.” Okay! That’s clear! But then, why ask me about it? You can figure that out. I can’t . . . In any event, I’ve always found thoroughgoing secularism to be self-defeating and ultimately incoherent upon any scrutiny, so it doesn’t surprise me that your analysis would suffer from the usual deficiencies of that worldview.

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Meta Description: Debate on various aspects of “gay marriage” with a secularist lawyer.

Meta Keywords: Gay marriage, homosexuality, lesbianism, LGBT, Marriage, same-sex marriage, same-sex unions

April 27, 2016

. . .Including Replies to Reformed Baptist Anti-Catholic Polemicist James White

TempleHerod

Reconstruction of Herod’s Temple (at the time of Jesus), with Robinson’s Arch in the foreground [Wikimedia CommonsCreative Commons Attribution-Share Alike 2.5 Generic license]

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(9-2-04)
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This is a continuation of my series of responses to anti-Catholic luminary James White’s response to a talk I gave on Sola Scriptura on the radio show, Catholic Answers Live. [I offer a free download of this interview from 10-10-03]

I have decided to provide a lengthy response to White’s “rebuttal” of just one of the ten points I presented in that appearance. Remember (as I noted before), my talk was a mere summary. I estimated that I had about three minutes to elaborate upon each point, due to radio time constraints. So this was no in-depth analysis (which the extremely multi-faceted and complex topic of sola Scriptura ultimately demands). It doesn’t follow, however, that I am unable to provide a much more in-depth treatment of the topic.

White, after dodging my critiques of his work for nine years now, seized upon this great “opportunity” of my introductory talk on the radio to pretend, on his Dividing Line webcast, that I have “no clue” what I am talking about and “not a bit of substance” (his stock “responses” and insults where I am concerned). In his eyes, I am a complete ignoramus, a pretender, and utterly over my head in this discussion. White was trying to turn this into a half-baked “oral debate” and (as always, as with all his Catholic opponents) to embarrass me as a simpleton and lightweight apologist. We know he thinks this, because he made a statement like the following on his second show:

The problem, of course, is that this is, quite seriously, one of the things I’ve said about Mr. Armstrong and about many Catholic apologists, from the very beginning. They don’t do exegesis, and they don’t know how to. Um, of course, I could argue that they’re not allowed to.

Be that as it may, for my part, I replied that I have dealt with most or all these points (agree or disagree) in lengthy papers elsewhere, which he is most welcome to attempt to refute as he pleases. This one point is no exception. Here is the material upon which I based my radio presentation (I added just a little on the air, but rather than do more tedious transcription, I will cite the original “notes”: indented):

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In the Jerusalem Council (Acts 15:6-30), we see Peter and James speaking with authority. This Council makes an authoritative pronouncement (citing the Holy Spirit) which was binding on all Christians:

Acts 15:28-29: For it has seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things: that you abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols and from blood and from what is strangled and from unchastity.

In the next chapter, we read that Paul, Timothy, and Silas were traveling around “through the cities,” and Scripture says that:

. . . they delivered to them for observance the decisions which had been reached by the apostles and elders who were at Jerusalem. (Acts 16:4)

This is Church authority. They simply proclaimed the decree as true and binding — with the sanction of the Holy Spirit Himself! Thus we see in the Bible an instance of the gift of infallibility that the Catholic Church claims for itself when it assembles in a council.

That’s it! Obviously, this is a bare-bones summary of one argument, that can be greatly expanded, with many aspects and facets of it examined. Also, it is important to note that I was writing a refutation of sola Scriptura, not an apologia for the full authority of the Catholic Church, and papal infallibility, etc. The two things are logically and categorically distinct. One could easily reject sola Scriptura without accepting the authority of Rome and the pope. Many Christians, in fact, do this: e.g., Anglicans and Orthodox. The subject at hand is “whether sola Scriptura is the true rule of faith, and what the Bible can inform us about that.” I made a biblical argument that does not support sola Scriptura at all (quite the contrary). But White, using his usual illogical, wrongheaded, and sophistical techniques, which he has honed to perfection, tried to cleverly switch the topic over to Catholic ecclesiology. 

Beyond that, he also foolishly (but typically) implied that my intent in this argument was some silly notion that I thought I had demonstrated all that (Catholic ecclesiology, the papacy and magisterium, etc.) by recourse to this reasoning. This is part of his opinion that I am so stupid that I am unaware of such elementary logical considerations. Vastly underestimating one’s opponent makes for lousy debates and embarrassing “come-uppances” when the opponent proceeds to demonstrate that he is not nearly as much of a dunce and clueless imbecile as was made out. The Democrats have used this tactic for years in politics. It is disconcerting to see anti-Catholic Baptists follow their illegitimate model in theological discourse.

He is way ahead of the game, of course, and this is a straw man, since I believe no such thing at all. Sola Scriptura means something. It has a well-established definition among Protestant scholars. In the next excerpt, we will see it defined by the well-known, influential Reformed Presbyterian R.C. Sproul. The question at hand is whether sola Scriptura is indicated in the Bible. I gave ten reasons in my talk which suggest that it is not. This particular case, in fact, offers not only non-support, but also direct counter-evidence.

This argument concerning the Jerusalem Council was used in expanded form in my book, The Catholic Verses: 95 Bible Passages That Confound Protestants. Here is that portion of the book, in its entirety (indented):

THE BINDING AUTHORITY OF COUNCILS, LED BY THE HOLY SPIRIT

Acts 15:28-29: “For it has seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things: that you abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols and from blood and from what is strangled and from unchastity. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well. Farewell.”

Acts 16:4: “As they went on their way through the cities, they delivered to them for observance the decisions which had been reached by the apostles and elders who were at Jerusalem.”

These passages offer a proof that the early Church held to a notion of the infallibility of Church councils, and to a belief that they were especially guided by the Holy Spirit (precisely as in Catholic Church doctrine concerning ecumenical councils). Accordingly, Paul takes the message of the conciliar decree with him on his evangelistic journeys and preaches it to the people. The Church had real authority; it was binding and infallible.

This is a far cry from the Protestant principle of sola Scriptura — which presumes that councils and popes can err, and thus need to be corrected by Scripture. Popular writer and radio expositor R.C. Sproul expresses the standard evangelical Protestant viewpoint on Christian authority:

For the Reformers no church council, synod, classical theologian, or early church father is regarded as infallible. All are open to correction and critique . . .

(in Boice, 109)

Arguably, this point of view derives from Martin Luther’s stance at the Diet of Worms in 1521 (which might be construed as the formal beginning of the formal principle of authority in Protestantism: sola Scriptura). Luther passionately proclaimed:

Unless I am convicted by Scripture and plain reason – I do not accept the authority of popes and councils, for they have contradicted each other – my conscience is captive to the Word of God. I cannot and I will not recant anything, for to go against conscience is neither right nor safe. God help me, Amen. Here I stand, I cannot do otherwise.

(in Bainton, 144)

One Protestant reply to these biblical passages might be to say that since this Council of Jerusalem referred to in Acts consisted of apostles, and since an apostle proclaimed the decree, both possessed a binding authority which was later lost (as Protestants accept apostolic authority as much as Catholics do). Furthermore, the incidents were recorded in inspired, infallible Scripture. They could argue that none of this is true of later Catholic councils; therefore, the attempted analogy is null and void.

But this is a bit simplistic, since Scripture is our model for everything, including Church government, and all parties appeal to it for their own views. If Scripture teaches that a council of the Church is authoritative and binding, then it is implausible and unreasonable to assert that no future council can be so simply because it is not conducted by apostles.

Scripture is our model for doctrine and practice (nearly all Christians agree on this). The Bible doesn’t exist in an historical vacuum, but has import for the day-to-day life of the Church and Christians for all time. St. Paul told us to imitate him (see, e.g., 2 Thess. 3:9). And he went around proclaiming decrees of the Church. No one was at liberty to disobey these decrees on the grounds of “conscience,” or to declare by “private judgment” that they were in error (per Luther).

It would be foolish to argue that how the apostles conducted the governance of the Church has no relation whatsoever to how later Christians engage in the same task. It would seem rather obvious that Holy Scripture assumes that the model of holy people (patriarchs, prophets, and apostles alike) is to be followed by Christians. This is the point behind entire chapters, such as (notably) Hebrews 11.

When the biblical model agrees with their theology, Protestants are all too enthusiastic to press their case by using Scriptural examples. The binding authority of the Church was present here, and there is no indication whatever that anyone was ever allowed to dissent from it. That is the fundamental question. Catholics wholeheartedly agree that no new Christian doctrines were handed down after the apostles. Christian doctrine was present in full from the beginning; it has only organically developed since.

John Calvin has a field day running down the Catholic Church in his commentary for Acts 15:28. It is clear that he is uncomfortable with this verse and must somehow explain it in Protestant terms. But he is not at all unanswerable. The fact remains that the decree was made, and it was binding. It will not do (in an attempt to undercut ecclesial authority) to proclaim that this particular instance was isolated. For such a judgment rests on Calvin’s own completely arbitrary authority (which he claims but cannot prove). Calvin merely states his position (rather than argue it) in the following passage:

. . . in vain do they go about out of the same to prove that the Church had power given to decree anything contrary to the word of God. The Pope hath made such laws as seemed best to him, contrary to the word of God, whereby he meant to govern the Church;
This strikes me as somewhat desperate argumentation. First of all, Catholics never have argued that the pope has any power to make decrees contrary to the Bible (making Calvin’s slanderous charge a straw man). Calvin goes on to use vivid language, intended to resonate with already strong emotions and ignorance of Catholic theology. It’s an old lawyer’s tactic: when one has no case, attempt to caricature the opponent, obfuscate, and appeal to emotions rather than reason.

Far more sensible and objective are the comments on Acts 15:28 and 16:4 from the Presbyterian scholar, Albert Barnes, in his famous Barnes’ Notes commentary:

For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost. This is a strong and undoubted claim to inspiration. It was with special reference to the organization of the church that the Holy Spirit had been promised to them by the Lord Jesus, Matthew 18:18-20; John 14:26.

In this instance it was the decision of the council in a case submitted to it; and implied an obligation on the Christians to submit to that decision.

Barnes actually acknowledges that the passage has some implication for ecclesiology in general. It is remarkable, on the other hand, that Calvin seems concerned about the possibility of a group of Christians (in this case, a council) being led by the Holy Spirit to achieve a true doctrinal decree, whereas he has no problem with the idea that individuals can achieve such certainty:

. . . of the promises which they are wont to allege, many were given not less to private believers than to the whole Church [cites Mt 28:20, Jn 14:16-17] . . . we are not to give permission to the adversaries of Christ to defend a bad cause, by wresting Scripture from its proper meaning.

(Institutes, IV, 8, 11)

But it will be objected, that whatever is attributed in part to any of the saints, belongs in complete fulness to the Church. Although there is some semblance of truth in this, I deny that it is true.

(Institutes, IV, 8, 12)

Calvin believes that Scripture is self-authenticating. I appeal, then, to the reader to judge the above passages. Do they seem to support the notion of an infallible Church council (apart from the question of whether the Catholic Church, headed by the pope, is that Church)? Do Calvin’s arguments succeed? For Catholics, the import of Acts 15:28 is clear and undeniable.

Sources

Bainton, Roland H., Here I Stand, New York: Mentor Books, 1950.

Barnes, Albert [Presbyterian], Barnes’ Notes on the New Testament, 1872; reprinted by Baker Book House (Grand Rapids, Michigan), 1983. Available online.

Boice, James Montgomery, editor, The Foundation of Biblical Authority, Grand Rapids, Michigan: Zondervan, 1978, chapter four by R.C. Sproul: “Sola Scriptura: Crucial to Evangelicalism.”

Calvin, John, Calvin’s Commentaries, 22 volumes, translated and edited by John Owen; originally printed for the Calvin Translation Society, Edinburgh, Scotland, 1853; reprinted by Baker Book House, Grand Rapids, Michigan: 1979. Available online.

Calvin, John, Institutes of the Christian Religion, translated by Henry Beveridge for the Calvin Translation Society, 1845 from the 1559 edition in Latin; reprinted by Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Co. (Grand Rapids, Michigan), 1995. Available online.

Now let’s examine White’s reply to my argument on his Dividing Line webcast, and see if it can stand up under scrutiny. Let’s see how cogent and biblical it is, and how well the good, exceedingly-wise Bishop White can survive (what he calls a) “cross-examination” (he, of course, claims that I would utterly wilt under his sublime, brilliant questioning, which is supposedly why I refuse to debate him orally). I have given my argument in summary, in depth; I’ve responded to some historic Protestant objections to it; the argument is in print in a published book from a reputable Catholic publisher: Sophia Institute Press) and now I will counter-reply to White’s own sophistical commentary. Whether he wants to respond back, or flee for the hills as he almost always has before, for nine years, when I critique him, remains to be seen. Let his followers closely note his actions now, if they think he is so invulnerable and unable to be “vanquished.”

[White’s words below will be in blue. I am directly citing his words from the Dividing Line webcast of 8-31-04]:

[start from the time: 23:00. This portion ends at 25:00]

Hello, Mr. Armstrong! Acts 15, apostles are there; the Holy Spirit is speaking; the New Testament’s being written; hellooo! This is a period of inscripturation, and revelation! The only way to make that relevant is to say, “you still have apostles and still receive revelation,” but you all believe the canon’s closed, so that doesn’t work. This isn’t some extrabiblical tradition! This is the tradition of the Bible itself! It’s revelation! Uh, again, see why, as long as you don’t allow anyone to cross-examine you; remember Proverbs 18. The first one to present his case always seems right, until his opponent comes along and questions him. That’s what live debate allows to take place. [mocking, derisive, condescending tone throughout]

This is White’s entire answer. On the next Dividing Line of 9-2-04, which I just listened to live, he also added a few brief comments about the same argument:

. . . [the Jerusalem Council is binding] “as a part of Scripture.”

“The Church does have authority; not infallible authority.”

Now let’s see how this stands up, when analyzed closely. I shall respond to each statement in turn:

Hello, Mr. Armstrong!

Hello, Your Eminence, the Right Reverend Bishop Dr. James R. White, Th.D.!

apostles are there

So what? How does that change anything? Are not apostles models for us? Of course, they are. St. Paul tells us repeatedly to imitate him (1 Cor 4:16, Phil 3:17, 2 Thess 3:7-9). White would have us believe that since this is the apostolic period and so forth, it is completely unique, and any application of the known events of that time to our own is “irrelevant.” He acts as if the record of the Book of Acts has no historical, pedagogical import other than as a specimen of early Christian history, as if it is a piece of mere archaeology, rather than the living Word of God, which is (to use one of Protestants’ favorite verses) “profitable for teaching . . . and for training in righteousness” (2 Tim 3:16-17). So now the historical passages of the New Testament are “irrelevant”? Only the straight-out doctrinal teaching can be used to ascertain correct doctrine? If so, then where is that taught in Scripture itself, etc.? Passages like Hebrews 11, which recount the deeds of great saints and biblical heroes, imply that they are a model for us.

White’s viewpoint as to the implications of the Jerusalem Council is theologically and spiritually naive or simplistic because it would force us to accept recorded, inspired apostolic teaching about the Church and ecclesiology (whatever it is), yet overlook and ignore the very application of that doctrine to real life, that the apostles lived out in that real life. We would have to believe that this council in Jerusalem had nothing whatsoever to do with later governance of the Church, even though apostles were involved in it. That, in effect, would be to believe that we are smarter and more knowledgeable about Christian theology than the apostles were. They set out and governed the Church, yet they were dead-wrong, or else what they did has no bearing whatsoever on later Christian ecclesiology. Since this is clearly absurd, White’s view that goes along with it, collapses.

Moreover, this is a foolish approach because it would require us to believe that Paul and other apostles were in error with regard to how Christian or Church authority works. The preached a certain thing in this instance. If they believed in sola Scriptura (as models for us), then they would have taught what they knew to be Scripture (in those days, the Old Testament), and that alone, as binding and authoritative (for this is what sola Scriptura holds). If they didn’t understand authority in the way that God desired, how could they be our models? And if the very apostles who wrote Scripture didn’t understand it, and applied it incorrectly in such an important matter, how can we be expected to, from that same Scripture? A stream can’t rise above its source.

Lastly, White implicitly assumes here, as he often does, that everything the apostles taught was later doctrinally recorded in Scripture. This is his hidden premise (or it follows from his reasoning, whether he is aware of it or not). But this is a completely arbitrary assumption. Protestants have to believe something akin to this notion, because of their aversion to authoritative, binding tradition, but the notion itself is unbiblical. They agree that what apostles taught was binding, but they fail to see that some of that teaching would be “extrabiblical” (i.e., not recorded in Scripture). The Bible itself, however, teaches us that there are such teachings and deeds not recorded in it (Jn 20:30, 21:25, Acts 1:2-3, Lk 24:15-16,25-27). The logic is simple (at least when laid out for all to see):

1. Apostles’ teaching was authoritative and binding.
2. Some of that teaching was recorded in Scripture, but some was not.
3. The folks who heard their teaching were bound to it whether it was later “inscripturated” or not.
4. Therefore, early Christians were bound to “unbiblical” teachings or those not known to be “biblical” (as the Bible would not yet be canonized until more than three centuries later).
5. If they were so bound, it stands to reason that we could and should be, also.
6. Scripture itself does not rule out the presence of an authoritative oral tradition, not recorded in words. Paul refers more than once to a non-written tradition (e.g., 2 Tim 1:13-14, 2:2).
7. Scripture informs us that much more was taught by Jesus and apostles than what is recorded in it.
8. Scripture nowhere teaches that it is the sole rule of faith or that what is recorded in it about early Church history has no relevance to later Christians because this was the apostolic or “inscripturation” period. Those are all arbitrary, unbiblical traditions of men.

One could go on and on about the falsehood of White’s opinion here. His view is simply wrongheaded and not required by the Bible at all. It is an unsubstantiated, unbiblical tradition within Protestantism, that has to exist in order to bolster up the ragged edges of another thoroughly unbiblical tradition: sola Scriptura. As the latter cannot be proven at all from Scripture, it, and all the “supports” for it such as this one, are all logically circular.

. . . the Holy Spirit is speaking . . .

Exactly! This is my point, and what makes the argument such a strong one. Here we have in Scripture itself a clear example of a Church council which was guided by the Holy Spirit. That is our example. It happened. White can go on and on about how these were apostles, but the apostles had successors. We know from Scripture itself that bishops were considered the successors of the apostles.

There was to be a certain ecclesiology. The New Testament speaks of this in relatively undeveloped ways (just as it speaks of fine points of Christology and trinitarianism in an undeveloped sense, which was developed by the Church for hundreds of years afterwards).

If the Holy Spirit could speak to a council then, He can now. Why should it change? This doesn’t require belief in ongoing revelation. That is another issue. The disciples were clearly told by our Lord Jesus (at the Last Supper) that the Holy Spirit would “teach you all things” (Jn 14:26) and “guide you into all truth” (Jn 16:13). This can be understood either as referring to individuals alone, in a corporate sense, or both. If it is corporate, then it could apply to a church council. And in fact, we see exactly that in the Jerusalem Council, after Jesus’ Resurrection and Ascension.

Of course, if white wants to assert that the Holy Spirit can’t speak any more, after the apostolic age and the age of revelation, that is up to him, but that is equally unbiblical and unnecessary. He can give us non biblical proof that this is the case, anymore than some Protestants (perhaps white himself) are “cessationists,” who believe that miracles and the spiritual; gifts ceased with the apostles also.

. . . the New Testament’s being written . . . This is a period of inscripturation and revelation!

So what? What does that have to do with how these early Christians regarded authority and how they believed that councils were binding? Where in the Bible does it say that this period is absolutely unique because the Bible was being written during it? The inspired Bible either has examples of historical events in it which are models for us, or it doesn’t. If it does, White’s case collapses again. If it doesn’t, I need to hear why someone would think that, based on the Bible itself, which doesn’t even list its own books, let alone teach us that we can’t determine how the Church was to be governed by observing how the first Christians did it .

The only way to make that relevant is to say, “you still have apostles and still receive revelation” . . .

On what basis is this said? I don’t see this in the Bible anywhere. Why do we have to still have apostles around in order to follow their example, as we are commanded to do? What does the ending of revelation have to do with that, either? Therefore, it is (strictly-speaking) an “extrabiblical tradition.” If so, then it is inadmissible (in the sense of being binding) according to the doctrine of sola Scriptura. If that is the case, then I am under no obligation to accept it; it is merely white’s arbitrary opinion. Nor is White himself. He contradicts himself, and this is a self-defeating scenario, involving the following self-contradiction:

In upholding the principle which holds only biblical teachings as infallible and binding, I must appeal to an extrabiblical teaching.

This is utterly incoherent, inconsistent reasoning, and must, therefore, be rejected.

You all believe the canon’s closed, so that doesn’t work.

The question of the canon is irrelevant to this matter as well. Protestants and Catholics agree as to the New Testament books. So what is found in the New Testament is inspired, inerrant, and infallible. That’s why I cite it to make my arguments about ecclesiology and the rule of faith, just like I defend any other teaching I believe as a Catholic.

This isn’t some extrabiblical tradition! It’s the tradition of the Bible itself! It’s revelation!

Bingo! Why does he think I used it in the first place?! Exactly!!! Dr. White thus nails the lid on the coffin of his own “case” shut and covers it with a foot of concrete. This “tradition of the Bible” in Acts 15 and 16 teaches something about the binding authority of church councils, and it is not what sola Scriptura holds (which is the very opposite, of course). Case closed. White can grapple with this portion of what all agree is inspired revelation all he wants, and offer pat answers and insufficiently grounded, circular reasoning all he likes; that doesn’t change the fact.

Then White stated that the Council is binding “as a part of Scripture.”

This is equally wrongheaded and off the mark. It was binding, period, because it was a council of the Church, guided by the Holy Spirit (a fact expressly stated by inspired Scripture itself). It would have been binding on Christians if there had never been a New Testament (and at that time there was not yet one anyway). Whether this was recorded later in Scripture or not is irrelevant. If Dr. White disagrees, then let him produce a statement in the New Testament which teaches us what he claims: that it was only binding because it later was recorded in Scripture. If he can’t, then why should we believe him? I am the one arguing strictly from Scripture and what it reveals to us; he is not. He has to fall back on his own arbitrary opinions: mere extrabiblical traditions of men.

Of course, the Church later acts in precisely the same way in its ecumenical councils, declaring such things as that those who deny the Holy Trinity are outside Christianity and the Church, or that those who deny grace alone (Pelagians) are, etc. They make authoritative proclamations, and they are binding on all Christians. The Bible and St. Paul taught that true Christian councils were binding, but Martin Luther, James White, and most Protestants deny this. I will follow the Bible and the apostles, if that must be the choice, thank you.

The Church does have authority; not infallible authority.

Sorry to disagree again, but again, that is not what the Bible taught in this instance. Here the Church had infallible authority in council, and was led by the Holy Spirit. This is clearly taught in the Bible. Period. End of discussion. I think White senses the power of this argument, which is why he tried to blithely, cavalierly dismiss it, with scarcely any discussion (an old lawyer’s trick, to try to fool onlookers who don’t know any better). Knowing that, he has to use the “this is the period of inscripturation and the apostles” argument, but that doesn’t fly, and is not rooted in the Bible, as shown. We are shown here what authority the Church has. If White doesn’t like it, let him produce an express statement in the Bible, informing us that the Church is fallible. One tires of these games and this sort of “theological subterfuge,” where the person who claims to be uniquely following the Bible, and it alone, invents nonsense out of whole cloth, when directly confronted with portions of that same Bible that don’t fit into their preconceived theology and arbitrary traditions of men. Our Lord Jesus and the Apostle Paul dealt with this in their time. Sadly, we continue to today.

Addendum: Dividing Line of 9-2-04

This was more of the same silliness, with even less solid reply. It was remarkable (even by White’s low standards) in its sustained juvenile, giggly mocking of Catholics, especially as White sat and listened to the advertising on the Catholic Answers Live show. I found this to be a rather blatant demonstration of the prejudiced mindset and mentality of the anti-Catholic. But as I have known of this tendency in the good bishop for many years, it came as no surprise at all. He started out with the obligatory digs at me:

[derisive laughter throughout]

Dave’s just playin’ along with the game; you know what I mean?
How can you self-destruct two times on your own blog?
. . . I feel sorry for old Dave . . .
We didn’t have a postal debate . . . absolute pure desperation . . .

White even went after Cardinal Newman later on:

[Newmanian development of doctrine is a] convenient means of abandoning the historical field of battle.

He went on to state that this involves a “nebulous” notion of doctrine whereby it can be molded and transmutated into almost anything, no matter how it relates to what went before. Of course, this is a complete distortion of Newman’s teaching (which is an organic, continuous development of something which remains itself all along, like a biological organism), and shows profound ignorance of it by Dr. White, but that is another topic. Those who are familiar with Newman’s thought will see how bankrupt this “analysis” is. But this comes straight from the 19th-century Anglican anti-Catholic controversialist George Salmon (it is almost a direct quote from him). Nothing new under the sun . . .

I hope readers have enjoyed another installment of my writing which has, of course, no substance whatsoever, and where I exhibit yet again my marked characteristic of not having a clue concerning that of which I write. And I’m sure you will enjoy White’s lengthy written reply, too (just don’t hold your breath waiting for that, please!).

*****

Meta Description: Discussion about the relationship of Church authority to inspired Scripture; + exchanges with anti-Catholic polemicist James White. 

Meta Keywords: Anti-Catholicism, apostolic succession, apostolic tradition, Bible Only, Catholic Tradition, Christian Authority, development of doctrine, James White, Rule of Faith, Scripture Alone, Sola Scriptura, Tradition

April 20, 2016

(aka John Q. “Deadhead” Doe)

crybaby2

[public domain / Pixabay]

***

Many of the papers below are archived versions from Internet Archive. Select from July 2015 or earlier, and allow a minute or two for them to upload.

Mr. Swan is of the Reformed Protestant persuasion, and does quite a bit of research on Martin Luther.

*****

Counter-Reply: Martin Luther’s Mariology (Particularly the Immaculate Conception): Has Present-Day Protestantism Maintained the “Reformational” Heritage of Classical Protestant Mariology?(+ Part II | Part III) [4-26-03]

Second Reply Concerning Martin Luther’s Mariology [6-28-03; massive rebuttal! After this, Swan personally despised me]

Dialogues With James White (+ Questions About My Editing of Dialogues) [3-1-04]

Dialogue on My Critique of James White’s Book, Mary — Another Redeemer? (+ Part II) (particularly with regard to the differing views on early Mariology of Protestant Church historians J.N.D. Kelly and Philip Schaff) (vs. James Swan and “BJ Bear”) [3-15-04 and 9-7-05]

“The Lost Liguori”: The Nefarious Protestant Conspiracy to Conceal St. Alphonsus’ Christocentric Mariology [3-26-04]

My Use of Luther Biographer Roland Bainton: Does it Exhibit an Undue, Unfair Bias?: Part I: Introduction and Questions About the Older Luther (Including His Nasty Language & Intemperance) [9-19-04]

My Use of Luther Biographer Roland Bainton: Does it Exhibit an Undue, Unfair Bias?: Part II: Luther and the Artist Lucas Cranach [9-21-04]

My Use of Citations From Luther Biographer Roland Bainton: Part III: Luther’s Views on the Death Penalty and Persecution [9-22-04]

My Use of Citations From Luther Biographer Roland Bainton: Part IV: Luther and the Bigamy of Philip of Hesse [9-23-04]

James Swan’s Opinion and Suggestions Concerning “Lengthy Papers” [9-24-04]

Anti-Catholic James Swan’s Unique, Ambiguous Use of Religious “Anti” Language [12-29-05]

Dispute Over the Word “Ass” as a Supposed “Swear Word” (Even Though it is in Calvin, Shakespeare, & the Bible)  (+ Part II / Part III[April 2007]

Swan vs. Historical Fact: Luther’s Advocacy of the Death Penalty for Anabaptists & Mixed Record in the Peasants’ Revolt of 1525 [Nov. 2007]

The Ghost of Martin Luther Interviews James Swan About Dastardly, Wascally Luther-Basher Dave Armstrong (satire related to Swan’s critiques of my use of Luther biographer Roland Bainton) [3-26-08]

My Comments Deleted from the Boors All Blog For No Reason / Doe’s Ludicrous Double Standards Regarding “Banning” Documented [6-8-10]

Four Open Letters to Doe, Proposing Mutual Removal of Posts (+ Documentation of His Avalanche of Insults) [6-30-10]

How Anti-Catholic Apologists “Argue” (James Swan) [6-30-10]

“Book Reviews” (Alleged) With No Book Title or Author’s Name? More Eccentric and “Erratic” Doe’s Anti-Catholic Goofiness [6-30-10]

Luther and the “Immaculate Purification”: Tao & John Q. Doe Score Some Points In-Between Attacks But Luther & Doe Adopt Blasphemous Semi-Nestorianism [10-2-10]

Doe Still Obsessed With My Work (98 Posts!): Pretense of a “DA-Free” Blog, Removal of My Name, & Anonymous Book Reviews [11-18-10]

Doe Insults Catholic Apologist Scott Windsor, Then (When It Suits His Polemical Purposes) Sez He is a “Man of Integrity” (Esp. Compared to Me) [11-23-10]

Doe Thinks His Cronies “Turretinfan”, Phil Johnson, & Frank Turk “Crave Popularity” Due to Their Blogger “Followers” Widgets [12-16-10]

Blistering Anti-Catholic Attack on Lay Catholic Apologetics (Matthew D. Schultz & all the Usual Suspects at Boors All) [1-22-11]

Humorous Interlude at the Anti-Catholic Boors All Blog [4-11-11]

Luther’s Lie About the Supposed Utter Obscurity of the Bible Before His Translation and Luther “Expert” John Q. Doe’s Usual Erroneous, Revisionist Opinions [6-15-11]

Doe’s Tired Intellectually Dishonest Sophistry (His Anti-Catholic Luther Research and its Nefarious Methodological Tactics) [6-15-11]

Swan’s Glaring Double Standards Regarding “Self-Published” Books (Such as Those by Cronies William Webster & David T. King) [7-18-11]

“Luther / Esther / Canon” Polemics and Swan’s Attempts to Solely Blame Catholics for a Questionable Luther Citation Passed Down by Three Protestants: an Editor, Major Compiler of Luther Works, and Admiring Biographer [8-20-11]

Swan Continues His Ridiculous Blaming of Catholic Apologists for Protestant Mistakes or Honest Scholarship, With Regard to Luther’s View of the Canon [8-27-11]

Am I a Psychotic Madman? (James Swan Sez Yes) [2-8-13]

Viral Anti-Catholic Cluelessness: A Classic Example [Facebook, 4-14-13]

John Calvin’s Flimsy and Unbiblical Objection to the Term, Mother of God and Swan’s Vapid Swipes at Catholic Apologists [5-19-13]

Did the Older Luther’s Illness and Frustration Significantly Impact His Negative Rhetoric? Four Major Luther Historians, Calvin, Bullinger, and I Say Yes; Swan Says No  [6-12-13]

Reply to James Swan’s Request for Documentation of Executions of Anabaptists Sanctioned by Luther, in the 1530s [8-17-14]

James Swan’s Swipes at Paul Hoffer, Ethical Hypocrisy, and the Catholic Answers Forum Suspension Controversy [Facebook, 9-9-14]

Satire on Swan’s Banning Policies: A Must to Avoid [9-10-14]

Martin Luther’s Acceptance of the Perpetual Virginity of Mary, Including “In Partu” Virginity (“at the birth of Christ”): Documentation (+ James Swan’s Belittling Contempt of Luther) [Facebook, 9-23-14]

Did John Calvin Believe in Mary’s Perpetual Virginity? (Debate with Tim Staples + Swan’s Usual Unsavory Tactics and Nonsense) [10-12-14]

James Swan Bolsters His Reputation as a Dense Amateur Church Historian and Hypocritical Nitpicker Yet Again [Re: Melanchthon and the Bishops and Princes / Facebook, 2-4-15]

The James Swan Insultapalooza Post [Facebook, 2-17-15; the massive hypocrisy of his condemning insults: many of which are actually, rather, true statements about his own inveterate lying about Catholics and Catholicism]

Luther & Veneration of Mary: James Swan’s Revisionism: His Anti-Catholic Nonsense with Regard to Martin Luther’s Mariology & Also My Related Research [4-22-16]

*****

Meta Description: James Swan is one of the more colorful, tempestuous anti-Catholics. He’s out to sea when he tries to debate, as repeatedly shown.

Meta Keywords: Anti-Catholic, Anti-Catholicism, Anti-Catholics, antichrist, Catholic Church, Catholicism, damned, idolaters, pagans, papists, Pelagians, reprobate, James Swan, John Q. Doe, John Q. “Deadhead” Doe, Roman Catholic Church, Romanism, totally depraved, unregenerate, unsaved, Whore of Babylon

February 11, 2016

Cover (555 x 831)

(31 March 2004)

* * *

Reply to a post from James White’s website.

* * * * *

“A Comparison of Exegesis”

Bishop James White quoted from my bookA Biblical Defense of Catholicism (first edition, published by 1stBooks Library, 2001, from Chapter Five: “The Sacrifice of the Mass: ‘A Lamb . . . Slain'”), pp. 69-70 (pp. 97-98 in Sophia Institute Press edition, 2003):

The theme of the Epistle to the Hebrews is Christ as our High Priest. As such, the “priestly” verses are very numerous (for example, 2:17, 3:1, 4:14-16, 5:1-10, 6:20, 7:1-28, 8:1-6, 9:11-15, 24-28, 10:19-22). The teaching here acquires much more meaning within Catholic Eucharistic theology, whereas, in evangelical, non-sacramental Protestant interpretation, it is necessarily “spiritualized” away. For nearly all Protestants, Jesus Christ is a Priest only insofar as He dies sacrificially as the “Lamb” and does away with the Old Testament notion of animal sacrifice. This is not false but it is a partial truth. Generally speaking, for the Catholic, there is much more of a sense of the ever-present Sacrifice of Calvary, due to the nature of the Mass, rather than considering the Cross a past event alone.

In light of the repeated references in Hebrews to Melchizedek as the prototype of Christ’s priesthood (5:6,10, 6:20, 7:1-3,17,20), it follows that this priesthood is perpetual (for ever), not one time only. For no one would say, for example, that Christ is King (present tense) if in fact He were only King for a short while in the past. This (Catholic) interpretation is borne out by explicit evidence in Hebrews 7:24-25:

He holds his priesthood permanently, because he continues for ever. Consequently he is able for all time to save those who draw near to God through him, since he always lives to make intercession for them.

If Jesus perpetually intercedes for us, why should He not also permanently present Himself as Sacrifice to His Father? The connecting word, consequently, appears to affirm this scenario. The very notion, fundamental to all strains of Christian theology, that the Cross and the Blood are efficacious here and now for the redemption of sinners, presupposes a dimension of “presentness” to the Atonement.

Granting that premise, it only remains to deny that God could, would, or should truly and actually re-present this one Sacrifice in the Mass. God certainly can do this, since He is omnipotent. He wills to do this because Jesus commanded the observance of the Lord’s Supper (Luke 22:19). Lastly, one can convincingly contend that He should do this in order to graphically “bring home” to Christians His Passion, Crucifixion, and Resurrection, and to impart grace in a real and profound way in Communion. The One Propitiatory Atonement of Calvary is a past event, but the appropriation of its spiritual benefits to Christians is an ongoing process, in which the Mass plays a central role.

The Sacrifice of the Mass, like the Real Presence in the Eucharist, is an extension of the Incarnation. Accordingly, there is no rational a priori objection (under monotheistic premises) to the concept of God transcending time and space in order to present Himself to His disciples. Nor is there any denying that the Sacrifice of Calvary is always present to God the Father and to Jesus Christ, God the Son. How then, can anyone deny that God could make the Cross sacramentally present to us as well?

Now let’s examine Mr. White’s reading of Hebrews 8 (his words will be in blue; to read his statement by itself, follow the above link; I have moved the footnotes to where they occur in the text).

James White, introductory exegetical comments prior to deeper exegesis of Hebrews 8:6ff.

The immediately preceding argument, leading to the key presentation of the new covenant in Heb. 8:6-13, flows from the identification of Christ with the superior priesthood of Melchizedek (Psalm 110:4, cited in Heb. 7:17, 21), leading to the description of Christ as the e;gguoj (guarantee/guarantor)[1]

[1] e;gguoj is a hapax legomena in the NT, appearing only in the Apocryphal books of Sirach and 2 Maccabees prior to this. It has semantic connections to avrrabw.n (down payment) in Eph. 1:14, for in common secular usage it refers to providing security or a guarantee, normally in a financial or business transaction. The guarantee then of the better covenant is introduced here within the context of Christ’s superior priesthood, His indestructible life, and divine ability to save to the uttermost (7:24-35).

Nothing to quibble with here . . .

of the new covenant, and also bringing the first use of krei,ttonoj diaqh,khj, better covenant, in 7:22, “so much the more also Jesus has become the guarantee of a better covenant.” Heb. 7:23-8:5 comprises a demonstration of the basis for the apologetic assertion that the new covenant is, in fact, a better covenant (part and parcel of the purpose of the letter), one that flows from the priestly nature of Christ’s work. 7:23-25 proves this by the contrast of the mortal priests with the one priest, Jesus Christ; and 7:26-28 does so in light of the sinfulness of the many priests and hence their repeated sacrifices versus the singular sacrifice of the innocent, undefiled Christ.

This is uncontroversial as well (as far as it goes). But of course White does not here deal with my own particular argument, that Jesus holds a perpetual priesthood (“He holds his priesthood permanently, because he continues forever” — 7:24; not just a one-time priestly sacrifice of Himself that has no application to His priesthood beyond the time it occurred in history).

Yes, we agree that Jesus sacrificed Himself once on the Cross (7:27). But that is a one-time act, in history. Why, then, does 7:26 continue to refer to Jesus as a “high priest” in the present tense, “exalted above the heavens”? It is this paradoxical interplay between the one act and the “present-ness” of Jesus’ priesthood that suggests a timeless nature of the sacrifice: precisely what Catholics claim is occurring at the Mass: the one-time sacrifice is being made present to us, because Jesus is a priest “forever.”

8:1-6, then, provides first a summary statement of the preceding arguments (i.e., our one high priest has entered into the heavenlies) and then provides the thesis statement for the description of the superiority of the new covenant from Jeremiah 31 with the assertion that Christ has obtained “a more excellent ministry” than that of the old priests, that He is the mediator (in contrast, in context, to Moses, v. 5, Gal. 3:19, John 1:17) of a “better covenant” enacted on “better promises.” Some brief comments should be offered exegetically on these texts.

Again, no significant disagreement, if at all. Of course the new covenant is better, and Jesus surpasses Moses, etc.

First, Christ’s role as singular and never dying high priest, and the resulting assurance of the perfection of His work, is seen by the writer as part of the demonstration of why the covenant of which He is the guarantee is “better” (7:23-25). While our English translations normally say something like, “The former priests existed in greater numbers” at 7:23, the literal reading is simply, “the priests,” contrasting[2]

[2] Using the common me.n/de. form translated “on the one hand/on the other hand.”

the plural with the singular “he” (oi` vs. o`) in v. 24. The work of the many priests is, of necessity, imperfect, for they are “prevented by death” from “continuing” or “abiding.” But, in contrast, He “abides forever,” He is no longer subject to death. Hence, He, unlike the old priests under the old covenant, holds His priesthood (which has been shown to be superior in the preceding arguments) avpara,baton, permanently, or, in some sources, without successor. Both translations fit the context, for He never lays aside this priesthood, hence, it is “permanent” in contrast to the former priests. But likewise He has no successor in His office. The entire concept is meant to be in contrast to the old priests and their inherently temporary nature. As a result of the permanence of His priestly position,[3]

[3] o[qen, “for which reason.”

Sure, but this doesn’t rule out the Catholic claim with regard to Jesus’ priesthood. It makes little sense to me to keep referring to Jesus as a “priest” in the present tense when He is (according to most Protestants) no longer doing at all what a priest does (sacrifice). Jesus sacrificed Himself as the Lamb of God. That was His priestly act (this is stated explicitly in 7:27, so it cannot be doubted).

But if that was strictly a past tense and not perpetual, why keep calling Him a priest after He is glorified in heaven? It would seem much more sensible to refer to His one-time priestly act, rather than continuing to call Him something denoting a characteristic activity that He is no longer performing.

Christ has an ability the old priests did not possess. He is able to save. The profundity of the words may deflect proper attention. The permanence of His life and position as high priest grants to Him the ability to save. He is active in saving, and He is capable of so doing.

If He is actively saving men — present and future tense — (as is undoubtedly true), but is doing so as a priest then He is presently saving by the sacrifice of Himself (i.e., the priestly act) which is an act made eternally “now”. Thus we are right to the heart of the Sacrifice of the Mass, which is the same concept. Jesus saves us as a priest. The sacrifice is of both an ongoing and salvific nature. This is the Mass! It’s heartening to see that James White can present it so clearly from the Bible despite his own lack of belief in it.

As noted above, the soteriological content of the superiority of Christ’s work as high priest and of the new covenant cannot be dismissed or overlooked.

I agree 100% That’s why I go to Mass every Sunday and partake of the body and blood of the once-for-all-sacrificed Lamb of God, my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, made sacramentally present by the sublime miracle of transubstantiation, because this sacrifice is my salvation. It’s not often that I get excited about the Mass based on the arguments of an anti-Catholic Baptist who detests the very concept. :-)

The extent of His salvific work is noted by the phrase eivj to. pantele.j, which can be translated “forever” in the sense of permanence, or “to the uttermost” in the sense of completely, similar, in fact, to avpara,baton above. Owen noted the propriety of seeing both senses in the text:

[John Owen] “Take the word in the first sense, and the meaning is, that he will not effect or work out this or that part of our salvation, do one thing or another that belongs unto it, and leave what remains unto ourselves or others; but ‘he is our Rock, and his work is perfect.’ Whatever belongs unto our entire, complete salvation, he is able to effect it. The general notion of the most that are called Christians lies directly against this truth….That this salvation is durable, perpetual, eternal… and there is nothing hinders but that we may take the words in such a comprehensive sense as to include the meaning of both these interpretations. He is able to save completely as to all parts, fully as to all causes, and for ever in duration.”[4]

[4] John Owen, An Exposition of the Epistle to the Hebrews, Hebrews 6:1-7:28, in The Works of John Owen, William Goold, ed. (Ages Digital Library, 2000), pp. 646-647.

Of course Jesus is “able to save completely.” We Catholics adhere to sola gratia just as much as Protestants do. But that doesn’t mean that the Eucharist is irrelevant as a sacramental means to receive this salvation that was accomplished at the cross. Jesus showed this when He gave His exposition recorded in John 6. He makes it clear that what He means by “bread” is His body:

. . . the bread which I shall give for the life of the world is my flesh. (John 6:51)

In this verse, even White has to concede that bread = flesh. Otherwise, it would mean that what won our salvation on the cross was literally a chunk of bread, rather than the precious body of our Savior and Redeemer. So He means this quite literally: the bread is His body. That’s why He states two verses later:

. . . unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you; he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life . . . (John 6:53-54)

And four verse later, He reverts back to speaking of “bread” as His body:

This is the bread which came down from heaven, not such as the fathers ate and died [i.e., not merely natural bread]; he who eats this bread will live for ever. (John 8:58)

It’s very clear (it could not be any clearer than it is):

1. Bread = Jesus’ flesh (Jn 6:51)
2. Eating Jesus’ flesh and blood gives eternal life (Jn 6:53-54)
3. Bread = Jesus’ body; which, partaken, causes one to live forever (Jn 8:58)

So the equation of Jesus’ body and the bread is stated outright (Jn 6:51) and then by inexorable simple deduction:

A. Jesus’ Flesh and Blood give eternal life.
B. Bread gives eternal life.
C. Therefore, Bread = Jesus’ Flesh and Blood (for how can mere bread cause one to attain eternal life?).

Just as the Father’s will for the Son revealed in John 6:38-39 demands perfection in His role as Savior, so too here the very same soteriological perfection and completion is central to the work of the eternal high priest. This is brought out with strong force in the rest of the verse, for the author indicates both the object of the salvific work and the basis thereof, and both are intensely “priestly” statements. The singular priest saves “those who draw near to God through Him.” This clearly harkens back to the people who drew near in worship to God in the temple, and their representative, the high priest on the day of atonement. There is specificity to the salvific work of the priest. He does not make a general plan of salvation available, He saves a specific people (cf. Matt. 1:21). And secondly, “He always lives to make intercession for them” points to the same perfection of the high priest. His indestructible life means He never lays aside His priestly role, hence, since the high priest interceded (evntugca,nein, Rom 8:34) for those for whom He offered sacrifice, Christ ever lives to make intercession for those who draw near to God through Him, resulting in the perfection of their salvation. The work of intercession guarantees the salvation of a specific people in this passage. This is vital to remember as we look at the key text in Hebrews 8.

No quibble here; Jesus saves utterly as a result of His sacrifice on the cross.

Similar themes appear in 7:26-28, including the perfect character of the high priest (v. 26), which establishes another element of His supremacy over the old priests, for He does not have to offer sacrifice for His own sins, and then the sins of the people. But here also appears a concept that will be expanded upon greatly at a later point, for the author says, “because this He did once for all when He offered up Himself.” Self-offering is yet another aspect of what sets the priesthood of Christ apart, for obvious reasons, from the priesthood of old. The high priest presents the offering in His own body, a concept expanded upon in chapter nine. But He did so “once for all.” The sacrifice is a singularity in time, for the author uses the temporal adverb, evfa,pax, to strongly emphasize this concept. The old priests sacrificed often for themselves, while Christ offered one sacrifice (Himself) for the people.

No disagreement to speak of here. The sacrifice was once and for all, historically-speaking. But for God, it is still “now” and there is a sense expressed in the Bible that it is constantly made “present” to us. It was intended to be a perpetual rite and remembrance, because Jesus commanded us to observe the Lord’s Supper. Paul, too, recounts a eucharistic tradition that he “received” and “delivered” (1 Cor 11:23). He noted that Jesus said, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood” (1 Cor 11:24; cf. Lk 22:20, Mk 14:24, Matthew 26:28). Martin Luther made an excellent exegetical argument pertaining to these verses:

[T]his spirit will not believe what the Word of God says, but only what he sees and feels. What a fine faith . . . The text is too clear and too powerful . . . For this word more forcefully and powerfully than any before requires that the blood is in the sacrament . . . this word of Luke and Paul is clearer than sunlight and more overpowering than thunder. First, no one can deny that he speaks of the cup, since he says, “This is the cup.” Secondly, he calls it the cup of the new testament. This is overwhelming, for it could not be a new testament by means and on account of wine alone.

(Against the Heavenly Prophets in the Matter of Images and Sacraments, 1525; Luther’s Works [LW], 40, 216-217)

In the same work, Luther makes a fascinating argument that a symbolic Eucharist turns the sacrament into a futile work of man rather than a grace and blessing from God:

He thinks one does not see that out of the word of Christ he makes a pure commandment and law which accomplishes nothing more than to tell and bid us to remember and acknowledge him. Furthermore, he makes this acknowledgment nothing else than a work that we do, while we receive nothing else than bread and wine.

(Ibid., LW, 40, 206)

Jesus’ sacrifice is not only present to us on earth, but also in heaven. In the next section of the same chapter in my book, I noted that an “altar” is mentioned as in heaven, in the book of Revelation many times (6:9, 8:3,5, 9:13, 11:1, 14:18, 16:7). Why is this, if altars and priesthood ceased with the one sacrifice of Jesus? This is after Jesus’ resurrection and ascension. Nor is it just Jesus at this altar in heaven. We are told that the “prayers of the saints” are being offered there (5:8-9, 8:3-4). Altars are also mentioned elsewhere in the New Testament.

St. Paul in 1 Corinthians 10:14-22, in an explicitly eucharistic passage, uses language suggesting that he sees the Eucharist as a sacrifice involving an altar (hence priesthood, hence the Sacrifice of the Mass): He mentions the “altar” of the Old Covenant in 10:18 and makes a direct analogy with the altar of the new covenant in 10:21:

You cannot drink of the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons. You cannot partake of the table of the Lord and the table of demons.

Even Baptists like James White (and many other Protestants) have not completely avoided the language of priestly sacrifice, since they still speak of the “Lord’s table” and even an “altar call.” What altar? That is the language of priesthood and sacrifice. So even non-sacramental Protestants can’t help retaining a remnant of New Testament eucharistic and sacrificial, priestly talk. Hebrews 13:10 states that “we have an altar.” Again, why, if the old system of priesthood is gone and the only priesthood of the New Covenant is that of Christ at Calvary? This is the New Covenant!

Lastly, I will close with the final words of the chapter here considered, from my first book, showing, I think, that the Sacrifice of the Mass is in perfect accord with the New Testament indications, and that James White has a lot of explaining to do.

He is welcome to do so. I have agreed with much of his presentation because it does not conflict with Catholic teaching (it is simply incomplete; purged of all clear-as-day New Testament sacramentalism). But he would disagree with much of my exposition above. We don’t know why he would unless he tells us.

[T]he climactic scene of this entire glorious portrayal of heaven occurs in Rev 5:1-7. Verse 6 describes a Lamb standing as though it had been slain. Since the Lamb (Jesus, of course) is revealed as sitting in the midst of God’s throne (5:6, 7:17, 22:1,3; cf. Matthew 19:28, 25:31, Hebrews 1:8), which is in front of the golden altar (8:3), then it appears that the presentation of Christ to the Father as a Sacrifice is an ongoing (from God’s perspective, timeless) occurrence, precisely as in Catholic teaching. Thus the Mass is no more than what occurs in heaven, according to the clear revealed word of Scripture. When Hebrews speaks of a sacrifice made once (7:27), this is from a purely human, historical perspective (which Catholicism acknowledges in holding that the Mass is a “re-presentation” of the one sacrifice at Calvary). However, there is a transcendent aspect of the Sacrifice as well.

Jesus is referred to as the Lamb 28 times throughout Revelation (compared to four times in the rest of the New Testament: John 1:29,36, Acts 8:32, 1 Peter 1:19). Why, in Revelation (of all places), if the Crucifixion is a past event, and the Christian’s emphasis ought to be on the resurrected, glorious, kingly Jesus, as is stressed in Protestantism (as evidenced by a widespread disdain for, crucifixes)? Obviously, the heavenly emphasis is on Jesus’ Sacrifice, which is communicated by God to John as present and “now” (Revelation 5:6; cf. Hebrews 7:24). The very notion of lamb possesses inherent sacrificial and priestly connotations in the Bible.

If this aspect is of such paramount importance even in the afterlife, then certainly it should be just as real and significant to us. The Sacrifice of the Mass bridges all the gaps of space and time between our Crucified Savior on the Cross and ourselves. Therefore, nothing at all in the Mass is improper, implausible, or unscriptural, which is why this doctrine was virtually unanimously accepted until the 16th century.

In conclusion, then, it is, I think, evident that the Book of Hebrews and the scenes in heaven in the Book of Revelation are suffused with a worldview and “atmosphere” which is very “Catholic.” The Mass, rightly understood, fulfills every aspect of the above passages, most particularly in the sense of Christ as the ultimate Priest for whom the earthly priest “stands in,” and in the timeless and transcendent character of the Sacrifice “made present” at Mass, but never deemed to be an addition to, or duplication of, the one bloody Sacrifice of our Lord at Calvary.

(p. 71 in 1stBooks edition; pp. 99-100 in Sophia edition)

January 5, 2016

BibleLuther
Martin Luther’s German translation of the Bible; 1534 edition, from his house in Wittenberg, Germany [public domain / Wikimedia Commons]
(6-5-10)

These remarks and dialogues occurred in a combox on the Reformed Protestant-dominated Green Baggins website (starting at comment #259). Paige Britton’s words are in bluerfwhite‘s in green, Jeff Cagle’s in purple. The words of anti-Catholic polemicist Ron DiGiacomo (who entered the discussion blasting with the obligatory repeated personal attacks that I won’t bore readers with below and almost immediately became a parody of himself and of a lousy Protestant apologist), will be in red.

* * * * *

If the Catholic church merely affirms what has always been canonical, does this mean that the Apocryphal books have “always” been canonical (and “authored by God”) just like the rest of the OT & NT?

* * *

Of course, since from our perspective (in line with the Septuagint and the early Church), we regard them as canonical along with the rest. What is truly Scripture is so inherently, being God-breathed. We all agree on that. We disagree on certain books.
* * *

My argument would be to say that Church authority has to necessarily settle that, since the Bible itself does not, and that this has always been a thorny question for Protestants to deal with, since they don’t like binding, infallible Church authority, and a fallible collection of infallible biblical books just don’t cut it.

* * *

…Which is why I raised the original question about church authority in relation to the canon. Maybe there are some good reasons why Protestants reject the Apocryphal books (or at least reasons we think are pretty good). Whitaker gets into these in Ch. 4 of the work Lane has coaxed us to read (there is a link to the Google version at the beginning of the post that heads this thread). But the discussion always spins back around to how God set up the universe — fallible ministers, or infallible magisterium? That “fallible collection of infallible biblical books” line sounds laughable,
* * *

I agree. It was popularized by [Calvinist] R. C. Sproul (in case anyone was unaware of that).

* * *

but if, as we believe (with Luther, that heretic!), we’re in a “fallible minister” universe, then even the wisest of councils can’t give us what Jeff Cagle calls “mathematical certainty,” whether about the canon or about doctrine. But if this is the case, we should expect sufficient certainty in these areas, so that “fallible” does not necessarily always equal “wrong.” So I’ll bite the bullet and accept the “fallible collection of infallible books.”

* * *

Protestants can play games with epistemology and “mathematical certainty” if they like. I’ve heard those tired arguments a hundred times. That was never what Christianity was about, anyway, because it is a religion that requires faith, not mathematics or philosophy.[i.e., as I clarified later under strong, utterly wrongheaded criticism: “I was saying (a variant of what I have stated 100 times on my blog, though I could have stated it more precisely) that religion is not philosophy; Christianity is not philosophy. It can’t be reduced to that. It requires faith. I was not at all saying that there is no such thing as Christian philosophy: a thing I passionately love and use all the time.”]

* * *

Without strong, binding Church authority, it is quite likely that the canon question would have gone on being controversial for a long time, quite possibly up to our present day. [I have here changed some of my words, for the sake of greater precision, compared to my original post] It is a question of knowing what the Bible is in the first place, which is a necessary precursor for sola Scriptura to be able to be practiced at all (to even attempt to practice it).
* * *

Sproul recognizes the conundrum for what it is. One has to have infallible binding authority in order to get to a place where sola Scriptura (the belief that holds that only Scripture is the final, infallible authority) can get off the ground: even theoretically. But since the original premise is directly, expressly contradictory to the new one built upon it, we see that the whole procedure is viciously circular.

* * *

I’ve never seen a decent Protestant argument that resolves this, and I don’t expect to see it here. Perhaps someone will give me a big surprise. I won’t hold my breath.

* * *

One, what must the nature of the church’s authority be for its recognition of the canon to be infallible?

* * * 

 

Obviously, I think, a binding (we would say, apostolic) authority; otherwise, what good is the proclamation? It is no better than you or I saying which books are Scripture. It is clear from Scripture itself that the Church has such authority. We see it most clearly in the Jerusalem Council (Acts 15:28: RSV: “For it has seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things”).

* * *

Even Paul and Timothy proclaimed this binding authoritative pronouncement: “As they went on their way through the cities, they delivered to them for observance the decisions which had been reached by the apostles and elders who were at Jerusalem” (Acts 16:4).

* * *

“Infallibility” is simply another way of saying that something is true (and in this case, protected by the assistance of the Holy Spirit). It is because Protestants often now accept theological relativism or relativistic latitude on a host of issues, that they disparage certitude and infallibility. In other words, since y’all can’t resolve your never-ending internal differences, you relegate large areas of Christianity to mere personal choice.
* * *

That approach is, with all due respect, post-Enlightenment, postmodernist gobbledygook, not biblical or historic Christianity, nor even the Christianity of Luther and Calvin, who felt quite certain of their own beliefs and even damned those who differed from it (e.g., Luther’s opinion of Zwingli, or Calvin calling Lutheranism an “evil”).

* * *

Two, does infallibility apply to the component parts of the canon only or does it extend to the collection as a whole also?

* * *

Catholics believe that all Scripture is infallible (in its manuscripts). We also believe that the proclamation of the canon is an infallible one, since it was finalized at Trent in a dogmatic fashion.

* * *

How can the RCC authoritatively declare that certain books are God-breathed and authoritative, without undercutting their authority by playing the king-maker?
* * *
The same way it could declare that circumcision was no longer necessary for Gentiles, in the Jerusalem council. The same way it could determine that Matthias was a successor to Judas; hence an apostle (hence an operation of apostolic succession), recorded in Holy Scripture itself. It does so because it is the “pillar and foundation of the truth”.
* * *
I’d like to address some of the (rather interesting and thoughtful) questions from Jeff (from #270) that I didn’t have time for up till now.
* * *
. . . this central question has arisen:
* * *
Does the church create truth or recognize truth?
* * *
Obviously the latter in terms of the canon (or indeed, anything, I would say). The truth is what it is. The Catholic Church can create dogmas (just as the Calvinist communion creates the dogma of TULIP) but not truths themselves. And the Church can do neither out of thin air, as we are often charged. I addressed this above in one of my remarks (#254), and cited Vatican I and II to prove that this is in fact what we assert regarding the canon (contrary to many contra-Catholic myths to the contrary).

* * *

Sean’s response (#126):

* * *

Your question, “Does the church create truth or recognize truth?” leaves out a third option: “Does the Church authoritatively declare truth?”

* * *

And so now the question on the table is, What does that third option mean? What is the difference between authoritatively declaring truth and either recognizing truth (as scientists attempt to do) or creating truth (as baseball umpires do).

* * *

I think it is mainly a question of semantics and clarification. I won’t speak for Sean. That is for him to do (being the world’s greatest expert on the thoughts and intentions in his own head). But I have my own thoughts.
* * *
The Church doesn’t “create” the canon in the most technical sense because it is what it is: God-inspired revelation: a thing that is separate from and prior to the Catholic Church (or anyone) recognizing it for what it is. So we can lay that to rest. It makes no sense once we understand what Holy Scripture inherently is, and it is not our claim anyway. So bye-bye, pseudo-objection and false stereotype . . . it comes from the Protestant either/or speculation that the Catholic Church is always trying to place itself above Scripture. That is not our position at all, as I also explained in the same post above (#254).

* * *

I would say that declaring and recognizing truth are basically the same thing. Using either word in a sentence regarding a truth or a fact amounts to essentially the use of what are synonyms. But to use the terminology of “authoritatively declare” as Sean did, brings in the additional element of proclamation of a dogma, which is a different thing.
* * *
This is why I myself use the phraseology of saying that there needed to be a binding, authoritative proclamation of the biblical canon, to settle the question once and for all. It was not completely settled spontaneously in history. There was a significant consensus, granted (especially for the gospels and Pauline epistles), but there were lots of doubts about other books, and many eminent fathers thought books not now included, were Scripture.
* * *
I would disagree, by the way, that a baseball umpire “creates truth.” He does not. If anything, he creates a “dogma”: a certain pitch is now to be regarded dogmatically as a strike or a ball and a play as an out or not or a ball fair or foul, etc. The things involved are what they are: truths, prior to the umpire making a decision on them. In fact, any given thrown pitch was either a strike or not. The umpire may be correct in his assessment or incorrect. But he doesn’t create anything. He declares.

* * *

Conveniently, this was graphically brought home in the recent Detroit Tigers game where our pitcher was deprived of a perfect game because of a clearly blown umpire’s call. Replays revealed that the last base runner was in fact out. But the umpire had created the “dogma” that he was safe. He did not create a new “truth” that he was safe, because in fact he was not safe. Even the umpire knows this now. The commissioner of baseball has decided to uphold the “dogma.”
* * *
In relationship to the canon, that’s what Paige is getting at. What is the difference between “infallibly recognizing the canon” and “infallibly authoritatively declaring the canon”?
* * *
We have established that no one is “creating” anything. Now you are using the word “infallibly.” I don’t see much difference in recognizing vs. declaring. The real question is infallibility, authority, and a binding decree or dogma. Our position is consistent. We believe in the three-legged stool as our rule of faith: Scripture, Church, Tradition. None is “above” the other. They are all of a piece.
* * *
The canon is above all a practical matter: how can the Christian know which books are indeed God-breathed Scripture? The early Christians disagreed too much and couldn’t fully settle it. So the Church did, and did so authoritatively. But Protestants accept no infallible Church declaration, since their only final infallible authority is Scripture. So they are left with a radical circularity and vicious circle: they must adopt, in effect, an infallible Church authority (which they cannot do) in order to have their infallible Scripture, which they make alone the infallible authority in all Matters Christian.
* * *
If the Church was in fact, fallible when it made the decision (and Protestants do actually think this when it comes to the deuterocanon), then Protestants are left with an open canon, and cannot know with the certitude of faith what are indeed the legitimate New Testament books. A fallible collection of infallible books is a contradiction in terms.
* * *
I don’t view this at all as a game, but as the central question surrounding RC authority:
* * *
Good. It is a very serious discussion indeed, with momentous consequences, depending on how one comes down on the question.

* * *

how can the RCC make the claims that it does about authority, without usurping God’s own authority?
* * *
It is not doing so at all, because the Church was given its authority by God, and is guided by the Holy Spirit (Jn 14:26; 15:26; 16:13). Jesus commissioned Peter as the head of the Church (tons of Scriptures for Petrine primacy, that even many Protestant scholars now recognize). Paul was commissioned by the Church and possessed apostolic authority, as did the other apostles. The Jerusalem Council (Acts 15) exercised profound binding, infallible authority, as I have mentioned. Paul went around proclaiming these binding decrees (Acts 16:4). Bishops had a strong authority. Matthias was an apostle in replacement of Judas: thus showing apostolic succession in the Bible itself. The Church has the power to anathematize (Matt 18:17) and bind and loose (Matt 16:19; 18:18; Jn 20:23), forgive sins, and pronounce absolution and penances. Personal infallibility, such as we believe popes possess in certain circumstances, was already foreseen to an even greater extent in the prophets, infallible (and even inspired) Bible writers, and the apostles. It is no novel thing at all. 1 Timothy 3:15 alone, as I have argued, is sufficient to establish a sublime Church authority.
* * *
I have collected literally many hundreds of Bible passages demonstrating all these things. The Tradition, Church, and Papacy chapters of my book, Bible Proofs for Catholic Truths take up its first 161 pages: and it is 95% simply listed Scripture, like Nave’s Topical Bible.

* * *

All this, yet you can’t see ecclesiastical authority in Scripture, and feel as if any such authority must needs be in conflict with God, in classic Protestant “either/or” fashion?

* * *

Reformed churches have authority, too, you know, on a lesser scale than us, but they still do. How does that not usurp God, just as you claim our authority does?
* * *
Allow me to try further to understand your position. You write, 
* * *

If the Church was in fact, fallible when it made the decision (and Protestants do actually think this when it comes to the deuterocanon), then Protestants are left with an open canon, and cannot know with the certitude of faith what are indeed the legitimate NT books….

* * *

My question: is it your position that for the church’s recognition of the canon to be infallible, the nature of the church’s authority must be infallible? If so, why does this follow?

* * *

Fair question. It’s not strictly necessary, of course (your word “must”), for some Christian body to make a declaration (even a binding one) in an infallible way. So broadly speaking, no.
* * *
What I’m arguing is that in order to have certainty that the Bible as we know it (leaving off the question of the deuterocanon for now, and sticking to the 66 books we all agree on) contains certain books, we need a strong authority to proclaim this, so as to put the vexed question to an end and for the sake or unity and theological order.

* * *

This doesn’t have to be infallible authority, but our claim is that the Catholic proclamation was indeed that, because that is how our authority works.
* * *
The problem for you and all Protestants is dealing with this state of affairs. Even assuming such authority was not infallible (as indeed you do), this does not get you out of your epistemological conundrum because you are still relying on the ecclesiastical authority to arrive at your conclusion of the nature and parameters of the biblical canon.
* * *
So, assuming it is a non-infallible proclamation, you are still (for some reason) adhering to it, save for the seven disputed books. If one steps back and ponders that, it is a rather odd state of affairs. If it was not an infallible pronouncement, then Protestants, by the very nature of their own system and rule of faith, would have the “right” to dissent against it. Yet they rarely do. Apart from some wild mostly early statements from Luther about several books and a few liberals, by and large, there has been no dispute. This means that the authoritative proclamation was in effect, accepted, even though it is regarded as itself fallible.
* * *
Logically, if there is no binding and infallible declaration, we should see a lot more latitude of opinion among Protestants. Martin Luther was arguably more consistent on this score than almost all Protestants subsequently.
* * *

Paul Althaus, in his Theology of Martin Luther (Philadelphia: Fortress Press, 1966, pp. 85, 336) opined:

* * *

He thereby established the principle that the early church’s formation and limitation of the canon is not exempt from re-examination . . . the canon is only a relative unity, just as it is only relatively closed. Therewith Luther has in principle abandoned every formal approach to the authority of the Bible. It is certainly understandable that Luther’s prefaces were no longer printed in German Bibles.
One may characterize his attitude in this way: The canon itself was, as far as Luther was concerned, a piece of ecclesiastical tradition and therefore subject to criticism on the basis of God’s word.
* * *
Lutheran Mark F. Bartling (WELS), in his informative paper, “Luther and James: Did Luther Use the Historical-Critical Method?” [no longer online at the URL I found], although unwilling to grant that Luther’s view amounted to subjectivism, arbitrariness, and liberal higher criticism, nevertheless, stated:
* * *

It must be admitted that Luther did develop a personal criterion of canonicity that took its place along side of apostolicity and universality (those books unanimously accepted by the early church, homologoumena) . . . It was, of all people, Carlstadt who condemned Luther for this criterion. Carlstadt said: “One must appeal either to known apostolic authorship or to universal historical acceptance as to the test of a book’s canonicity, not to internal doctrinal considerations.” [De Canonicis Scripturis libellus, Wittenberg, 1520, p. 50]. This position of Carlstadt was also the position of Martin Chemnitz and of C. F. W. Walther [Compendium Theologiae Positivae, Vol. I. p. 149].

* * *

Brooke Foss Westcott (1825-1901), the great biblical scholar, strongly disagreed with Luther, too:
* * *
The freshness and power of Luther’s judgments on the Bible, the living sense of fellowship with the spirit which animates them, the bold independence and self-assertion which separate them from all simply critical conclusions, combined to limit their practical acceptance to individuals. Such judgments rest on no definite external evidence. They cannot be justified by the ordinary rule and measure of criticism or dogma. No Church could rest on a theory which makes private feeling the supreme authority as to doctrine and the source of doctrine. As a natural consequence the later Lutherans abandoned the teaching of their great master on the written Word.
(A General Survey of the History of the Canon of the New Testament, 6th edition, 1889; reprinted by Baker Book House: Grand Rapids, Michigan, 1980, 483-484)
* * *

Luther was wrong, but he was self-consistent. For much, much more on Luther’s view of the canon, see my paper: “Luther’s Outrageous Assertions About Certain Biblical Books (Protestant Scholars’ Opinions and “Debate” With John Warwick Montgomery).”

* * *

I argue that Protestants are right (excepting the Deuterocanon) but for the wrong reasons, and inconsistent, because their notions of the canon clash with their rule of faith, sola Scriptura.
* * *
I would say that most Protestants (who, I strongly suspect, never think much about the issue, just as I didn’t much when I was a Protestant) accept it uncritically. Basically, they buy a Bible and certain books are in there and they accept that without further thought.

* * *

Those who do ponder and grapple with it, have not, I think, come up with an acceptable solution to the dilemma. Either flimsy, implausible arguments for a provisional, temporary Church authority are set forth, or they anachronistically apply our present “certainty” back to the early Church, or adopt the position that all biblical books are self-attesting (which has its own host of problems, and even if true, did not lead all early Christians to agreement on the canon).
* * *

Along with the irritating fact that sola Scriptura cannot be proven from Scripture Alone (which it has to be in order to sensibly hold as worthy of belief), the canon issue makes it a double whammy against the Protestant rule of faith: a position that has more logical holes in it than a pin cushion.

* * *

Couldn’t resist turning the tables:

* * *

the fallible cannot know it has identified and received the infallible. . . . After all, if the fallible cannot identify and receive the infallible and know it has done so, then Dave (being fallible) cannot know that the Roman communion is indeed infallible on matters of faith and practice.

* * *

[first of all, this is not my position in the first place, as can readily be seen above, particularly when I plainly answered the re-cited question “no”. My view has been distorted by Ron, as usual. The man can’t get it right where I am concerned, to save his life]
* * *

the fallible cannot know it has identified and received the infallible (let alone the inspired, which is a greater characteristic) . . . . After all, if the fallible cannot identify and receive the infallible (or the inspired) and know it has done so, then Protestants (being fallible) cannot know that Holy Scripture is indeed infallible on matters of faith and practice, and all matters, let alone inspired (God-breathed).

* * *

And this amounts to the theologically liberal position: the Scriptures are fallible and full of errors, therefore we shall pick and choose from it what we deem to be true and reject what we decide is false, outdated, a later textual addition, etc.

* * *

This is what one gets when they epistemologically (for the moment) reduce Christianity and Christian faith to mere philosophy. Protestant fundamentals fall right alongside Catholic ones, should these false and wrongheaded premises be adopted.
December 2, 2015

Mary17

Madonna and Child, by Filippo Lippi (1406-1469) [public domain / Wikimedia Commons]

* * * * *

Original title: “Live Chat” Dialogue on Patristic Consensus (Particularly, Mariology) (vs. James White)
(original exchange: 29 December 2000. “Footnotes” added shortly afterwards. Revised on 4 December 2002)

The following live exchange (with an “audience”) occurred in the chat room of the website of Reformed Baptist anti-Catholic apologist James White, on 29 December 2000. White asked to dialogue with me. This was absolutely spontaneous and not pre-planned at all. I was unable to cut-and-paste excerpts from my website while I was in the room (nor did I wish to: I wanted informality and discussion as it would occur in someone’s living room, over tea and crumpets). Bishop White’s words will be in blue


The dialogue is unedited, excepting chronological changes to make it clear what question a reply was responding to, comments about time limits and rules, and inadvertent factual error (e.g., White cited Ignatius when he meant Irenaeus). I will add some commentary and links separately from the actual chat at the bottom of this paper, footnoted and hyper-linked to the dialogue text, so that later elaboration will be easily distinguishable.


* * * * *

Mr. Armstrong, care to dialogue a bit?

“no, no more than it was for the Fathers who appealed to apostolic Tradition.” 


Remember that statement Dave?

yes.
Dave: The earliest reference in all patristic writing to something “passed down from the Apostles” that is not in Scripture is Irenaeus’ insistence that those who knew the Apostles confirmed that John 8 teaches that Jesus was more than 50 years of age at his death. Rome has rejected this idea.[Footnote 1] If “tradition” can be corrupted in its first instance, upon what basis do you affirm the idea that such doctrines as the Bodily Assumption, without witness for over 500 years, is truly apostolic? [Footnote 2]

who claims that this is the first instance of Tradition passed down? Now we are in areas that require research to answer, so I can hardly do that on the spot.

Well, if you can find an explicit statement that is earlier, I’d like to see it. To my knowledge, it is the earliest example.

I doubt that…..the principle is explicitly biblical in the first place. If indeed the notion [Tradition passed down] is in the Bible, then that is the earliest instance, not Irenaeus.


I’m sorry, I must have been unclear: I was referring to a statement by an early Church Father concerning an alleged extra-biblical tradition passed down from the Apostles. And I believe Irenaeus’ claim is the earliest….but that point aside….


Okay, that may be (I don’t know).

I assume, then, you are not familiar with this particular issue? Okay, then let us use another example. Basil said that it was an apostolic tradition to baptize three times, facing east, forward. Upon what basis do you reject his testimony, if you do?

Patristic consensus over what period of time? For example, the “patristic consensus” through the end of the fourth century was that Mary had committed acts of sin. That is no longer
the “view” taken by Rome.

the patristic period is generally considered to go up to John Damascene, no?

That all depends. :-)

no; some Fathers thought she sinned, but I don’t believe they were the majority, by any means.

Would it follow, then, that you believe the “patristic consensus” up through John Damascene supports such doctrines as the Immaculate Conception and the Bodily Assumption?

Can you name 5 or 10 who thought that?

Yes. Origen, Chrysostom, Cyril of Alexandria, Basil. Big names. :-) Even Anselm held Mary was born with original sin.

how about western fathers? Those are all eastern guys. :-)

Anselm isn’t. :-)

Anselm was not a father.

Let’s hope not. :-) He was under orders…. just kidding.

all you’re doing now is helping to support Roman primacy and orthodoxy. The east had a host of errors. They split from Rome five times, and were wrong in every case by [the criteria of] their own later “orthodox” beliefs. 
[Footnote 3]

Hmm, so you are switching now to a Western “consensus”?

no, but your citing of only eastern fathers hardly suggests that this is overall “patristic consensus,” does it?

I would dispute that, actually, but I’d like to stick to the issue I’ve raised here. Is it your belief that these two dogmas are apostolic in origin?

first name me western fathers who thought Mary sinned, since you brought this up.


Actually, Augustine’s influence regarding the universality of original sin had to be overcome for the Immaculate Conception to be contemplated and codified, sir. :-)


but that’s a separate issue. Did Augustine think Mary sinned?

No, not in her personal life. But he did believe she contracted original sin, correct?

There is the distinction between actual sin and original sin in Mary’s case.

Do you consider Tertullian a Western?

yes.

Would you include Hilary? J.N.D. Kelly lists them both in that category. I think that makes six, does it not?

I’m not sure, but you started by discussing acts of sin, now you are switching to original sin.

Actually, for both Tertullian and Hilary, it would be acts of sin.

okay, so you have two?

Yes, two. May I ask how many you have that positively testify of the later Roman belief in the same time-period?

one second….consulting some papers.

Be that as it may, does it not follow from these considerations that there is no positive consensus upon this issue? The only relevant answer to that would be to ask, “Who wrote on the specific question of Mary’s sinlessness? Not many.”

was this in Tertullian’s Montanist or semi-Montanist period? About how many fathers were there, in your estimation?

The Tertullian citation is De carne Chr. 7. [Footnote 4]

how many say she was without sin? That’s what you are asking? Actual sin?

I think you can see my point, can you not, Mr. Armstrong? If these concepts were, in fact, passed down through the episcopate, how could such widely differing church leaders be ignorant of these things?

the same way Luther was ignorant about baptismal regeneration, and Calvin of adult baptism. :-) Neither got it right, according to you.

Well, it would seem that if you wish to substantiate a dogma of the Immaculate Conception, the task would be rather easy to demonstrate a positive witness to the belief in the patristic period, would it not?

I think this can be done, but probably not to your satisfaction.


Does it follow, then, that you parallel individual Reformational leaders with the early Fathers, the very ones entrusted with “apostolic tradition”? Or was that rhetorical?


I was making a point about noted leaders and teachers differing. We would expect that in the Fathers to an extent, being human; nevertheless, there is still overall consensus.

Have you ever listened to my debate with Gerry Matatics on the subject of the Marian dogmas, Mr. Armstrong?

no. Did you win that one? :-)


It’s on the web…..Gerry said I did, actually. :-) As did Karl Keating. Does that count? :-)


I can name names as to who believed in sinlessness, but I don’t have it at my fingertips……

Be that as it may, during the course of the debate I repeatedly asked Gerry for a single early Father who believed as he believes, dogmatically, on Mary. I was specifically focused upon the two most recent dogmas, the Immaculate Conception and the Bodily Assumption.

of course, if you are looking for a full-blown doctrine of Immaculate Conception, you won’t find it. 
[Footnote 5]

How would you answer my challenge? Did any early Father believe as you believe on this topic?

the consensus, in terms of the kernels of the belief [i.e., its essence], are there overall. I would expect it to be the case that any individual would not completely understand later developments.

So many generations lived and died without holding to what is now dogmatically defined? [Footnote 6]

Did any father of the first three centuries accept all 27 books of the NT and no others? 
[Footnote 7]

Three centuries…..you would not include Athanasius?

I think his correct list was in the 4th century, but at any rate, my point is established. How many fathers of the same period denied baptismal regeneration or infant baptism?

The issue there would be how many addressed the issue (many did not). But are you paralleling these things with what you just admitted were but “kernels”? [Footnote 8]

if even Scripture was unclear that early on, that makes mincemeat of your critique that a lack of explicit Marian dogma somehow disproves Catholic Mariology.

I’ll address that allegation in a moment. :-)[Footnote 9] By the way, would you like that specific Irenaeus reference to look up? Just in passing?

I can look it up…I have enough resources. The question of this dialogue is whether we are gonna address topics which require heavy research….. That is more appropriate for a paper. If I were answering all your questions in a paper I would have spent a good three hours already. 
[Footnote 10]A guy like Joe Gallegos could instantly address questions about particular Fathers’ beliefs……. but I’ll still give you names who taught Mary’s sinlessness, if you like.

I was thinking of the others looking on. :-) It is chapter 22, section 5, of Irenaeus’ work, Against Heresies, Book 2, I believe….


so where do we go from here?

Anyway….You seem to think that if there is disagreement on any issue, this means the Scripture is unclear, correct?

no; rather massive disagreement on many issues seems to me to fly in the face of this alleged perspicuity. I think Scripture is clear, by and large, actually, but human fallibility will lead to “hermeneutic relativism,” thus requiring authoritative interpreters.

What do you do with Peter’s words? 2 Pet 3:15-16:

and regard the patience of our Lord as salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you, as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction. (NAS)

a good description of many Protestants! How does this bolster perspicuity?


If the untaught and unstable distort the Scriptures, then what can the taught and stable do, of necessity?

it doesn’t follow logically that if the unstable distort the Scripture, that the stable will always get it right, does it?

()()() James is Away. Lord willing, he will return. :) ()()()

Footnotes
 

1. Early Patristic “Extra-Biblical” Citations Without too much trouble, I managed to find what I believe to be an earlier reference, in this instance, to what the writer describes as “Scripture” (I assume he would hold that the Bible was “passed down from the Apostles” and that Bishop White would grant the point). The writer is St. Clement of Rome, in his Letter to the Corinthians (aka First Clement), dated 95-96 A.D. In 23:3, he writes:

Let this Scripture be far from us where he says . . . .

Then he proceeds to cite a passage which is not in present-day Scripture (it is also cited in 2 Clement 11:2-4 – not considered to have been written by St. Clement, but perhaps the oldest Christian sermon extant: c.100 A.D. -, where it is described as “the prophetic word”). The famous Protestant scholar J.B. Lightfoot speculated that it was from the lost book of Eldad and Modat mentioned by Hermas (Vis. 2.3.4). Now how is it that a prominent Church Father in the first century can be so ignorant as to the contents of “Scripture,” when Bishop White and Protestants must believe Scripture to be apostolic in order for it to be inspired and the rule of faith, over against both Tradition and Church?
 

But Bishop White’s argument suffers from an additional fallacy, viz., what shall we consider to be “scriptural” or conversely, “extra-biblical” in the first place? How do we ultimately determine that? This inevitably becomes at least partially a subjective affair. In addition to not properly knowing what Scripture is, St. Clement also urges his readers to conform to the glorious and holy rule of our tradition (7:2). Bishop White, of course, rejects any “tradition” as a rule of faith; Scripture Alone is the rule of faith, according to Protestants. So St. Clement, by White’s criterion, is referring to an “extra-biblical” notion. In point of fact, however, Sacred Tradition (even oral Tradition) is indeed an altogether biblical and Pauline concept (1 Cor 11:2, 2 Thess 2:15, 3:6, 2 Tim 1:13-14, 2:2, 2 Pet 2:21, Jude 3).
Furthermore, moving on about a dozen years later to the epistles of St. Ignatius of Antioch, dated c.105-110 A.D., we find a host of doctrines which Bishop White would consider “extra-biblical.” Again, it is a matter of definition as to what is biblical, and what should be considered “orthodox” in Christianity. In our extensive 1995 debate by US Mail, Bishop White wrote:

How do you know you are in company with, say, Athanasius or Ignatius or Irenaeus? In the final analysis, is it not because Rome tells you so?

Well, I submit that my Catholic views are far closer to those of Ignatius than are Bishop White’s Baptist views. If allegedly “extra-biblical” views are so prevalent among the earliest Church Fathers, what becomes of Protestantism’s vaunted, mythical “early (quasi-Protestant and ‘biblical’) Church”? So let us briefly examine a few of the “extra-biblical” teachings of St. Ignatius (emphasis added, with my comments in brackets):
 
Denominationalism

“It is, therefore, advantageous for you to be in perfect unity, in order that you may always have a share in God.” (Eph., 4,2)

“Let there be nothing among you which is capable of dividing you . . .” (Mag., 6,2)

“Flee from divisions, as the beginnings of evils.” (Sm., 8,1)

“Focus on unity, for there is nothing better.” (Pol., 1,2)

“If anyone follows a schismatic, he will not inherit the kingdom of God.” (Ph., 3,3)

[Bishop White can’t even agree with Protestant Founder Martin Luther, concerning baptismal regeneration and the Real Presence in the Eucharist and the Immaculate Conception of Mary, or with John Calvin concerning the legitimately Christian and covenantal status of baptized Catholics, let alone attaining “perfect unity” and abolishing sinful denominational divisions. Quite unbiblical, or “extra-biblical”. . . ]

Bishops

“You must all follow the bishop, as Jesus Christ followed the Father . . .” (Sm., 8,1)

“Let everyone respect the deacons as Jesus Christ, just as they should respect the bishop, who is a model of the Father, and the presbyters as God’s council and as the band of the apostles. Without these no group can be called a church.” (Tr., 3,1)

“It is good to acknowledge God and the bishop. The one who honors the bishop has been honored by God; the one who does anything without the bishop’s knowledge serves the devil.” (Sm., 9,1) 

“It is obvious, therefore, that we must regard the bishop as the Lord himself.” (Eph., 6,1)

[Bishop White, being a Baptist, of course doesn’t believe in bishops, which is strange, seeing that it is an explicit biblical office. He can hardly call this an “extra-biblical” idea. Why, then, does his affiliation expunge it? Perhaps, then, we should invent the term “sub-biblical” or “anti-biblical” to describe the myriad subtractions and omissions of various Protestant Christianities?]
 
Bishop White later strongly objected to the paragraph above, as an inaccurate statement, in his mind proving that I knew “nothing” about either “biblical” or Baptist ecclesiology (he is not renowned for understatement) [and he claimed to be a “bishop” himself]. I, of course, offered a counter-response.

Real Presence

“I want the bread of God, which is the flesh of Christ.” (Rom., 7,3)

“They abstain from the Eucharist and prayer, because they refuse to acknowledge that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ.” (Sm., 6,2)

[Bishop White denies the Real Presence of Jesus in the Eucharist. How could St. Ignatius become so “extra-biblical” in such a short space of time from the Apostles?]

Vicarious Atonement (A Species of Penance)

“I am a humble sacrifice for you.” (Eph., 8,1)”May my spirit be a ransom on your behalf.” (Sm., 10,2)
“May I be a ransom on your behalf in every respect.” (Pol., 2,3)

[Bishop White would consider these beliefs outrageously “extra-biblical.” So here is yet another instance of such teaching occurring very early on. Were there no “evangelical Christians” to be found at such an early date?!!]
2. Development of the Doctrine of Mary’s Assumption This is a false analogy, because by Bishop White’s criteria of “orthodoxy,” “tradition” could not possibly have been first corrupted by St. Irenaeus. But be that as it may, I have dealt with the question of the slowly-developing tradition of Mary’s Assumption elsewhere. White’s rapid-fire questioning and constant switching of topics and subtle changing even of terms within topics hardly allowed me to deal adequately with such a complex subject, so I refer readers to a previous exchange with Bishop White, from 1996:

“Dialogue on Whether the Assumption and Immaculate Conception of Mary are Legitimately Part of Apostolic Tradition”

3. Eastern Heresy / Roman Orthodoxy See my paper: “A Response to Orthodox Critiques of Catholic Apostolicity.”

4. The Fathers on Mary’s Sinlessness Sure enough, The Flesh of Christ (dated 208-212 A.D.) is from Tertullian’s semi-Montanist period. Protestants often fail to note the different theological periods with regard to citing Tertullian. Many will conveniently ignore this if a Tertullian quote suits their purpose (or else some are ignorant of the dating and/or of his later heresy altogether). Whichever the case with Bishop White, he failed to answer my question during the dialogue, thus illustrating another reason why these clarifying notes are important and useful. What I suspected turned out to be true. Whether Bishop White knew this beforehand or not, we don’t know, as he didn’t say.
 
As for Hilary of Poitier’s views concerning the Blessed Virgin, in the book Mary and the Fathers of the Church, by Luigi Gambero (San Francisco: Ignatius Press, 1999, p. 186) the author (a priest with background in philosophy and also author of a 4-volume work on Marian thought) wrote:

Hilary always considered it normal for Mary to have had some small imperfections . . . Our author does not mention any specific defect or imperfection in Mary’s conduct but seems to hold that some such flaw exists, if even Mary must face the judgment of God. However, this is an isolated observation [Tractatus super Psalmum 118,12; PL 9,523], to which Hilary does not return.

So Bishop White offers one western father (who held a quite “mild” opinion on the subject – not exactly a spectacular, bold dissent), and another in his heretical period, plus four eastern fathers (which I was already generally aware of – one always finds exceptions to the rule). This is what he considers a “patristic consensus.” I consider it a pathetic argument. Ludwig Ott states that the western patristic consensus was “unanimous.” Thus, Bishop White is trapped by the facts of history, not any rhetorical brilliance on my part. 

As for Church Fathers who refer to the Blessed Virgin Mary as the New Eve (Eve was originally sinless or immaculate), Second Evesinless, spotless, purewithout stainimmaculatethe Ark of the Covenant, or (negatively) who never attributed any actual sin to her, we find the following:
 

Hippolytus, Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Gregory Nazianzen, Gregory Nyssa, Cyril of Jerusalem, Epiphanius, Athanasius, Jerome, Eusebius, Ephraim, Ambrose, Augustine, Proclus, Theodotus, Peter Chrysologus, Andrew of Crete, Fulgentius, Leo the Great, Gregory the Great, Germanus, John Damascene.
 
That makes at least 22 fathers in the affirmative, compared to 5 who attributed sin to Mary (not counting the Montanist heretic Tertullian). By this broad reckoning, that is about 81% of the fathers (and these are only the major ones), which is more than enough to achieve a “consensus,” as even the phrase “unanimous consent of the fathers” never literally meant all of them, as Catholic apologist. 
5. Development of the Doctrine of the Immaculate Conception Nor would we expect to, according to the normal course of doctrinal development.
 
 
6. Development of Doctrine in General As is, unfortunately, so often the case with Protestants, Bishop White betrays a great lack of understanding of development of doctrine.

In my book, A Biblical Defense of Catholicism, I wrote:

Doctrines agreed upon by all develop, too. The doctrine of the Godhood, or Divinity of Jesus Christ was not formally defined until the Council of Nicaea in 325, and the Divinity of the Holy Spirit was proclaimed at the Council of Constantinople in 381. The dogma of the Two Natures of Christ (God and Man) was made official at the Council of Chalcedon in 451. We’ve already seen how the Canon of the New Testament was also very much a “developing doctrine” itself, finalized only in 397. Original Sin was a slowly developed belief. Many other examples could be brought forth.

And I cited the great Protestant apologist C. S. Lewis:

Change is not progress unless the core remains unchanged. A small oak grows into a big oak; if it became a beech, that would not be growth, but mere change . . . There is a great difference between counting apples and arriving at the mathematical formulae of modern physics. But the multiplication table is used in both and does not grow out of date. In other words, whenever there is real progress in knowledge, there is some knowledge that is not superseded. Indeed, the very possibility of progress demands that there should be an unchanging element . . . I claim that the positive historical statements made by Christianity have the power, elsewhere found chiefly in formal principles, of receiving, without intrinsic change, the increasing complexity of meaning which increasing knowledge puts into them . . . Like mathematics, religion can grow from within, or decay . . . But, like mathematics, it remains simply itself, capable of being applied to any new theory.

[From:, God in the Dock, ed. Walter Hooper, Grand Rapids, Michigan: Eerdmans, 1970, pp.44-47. Originally from “Dogma and the Universe,” The Guardian, March 19, 1943, p. 96 / March 26, 1943, pp. 104, 107]

Furthermore, the “kernels” or essential elements of all the Catholic Marian beliefs can be found in Holy Scripture, to a much greater extent than most Protestants would ever imagine, and often fairly explicitly. If this is indeed the case, then these beliefs are all quite apostolic and early: all deriving from the first century A.D. or earlier. 

And to see how “Catholic” a Protestant can get, with regard to Mariological views, see my paper: “Martin Luther’s Devotion to Mary.”
 

7. Lack of Patristic Consensus on the NT Canon This is precisely the point. Bishop White thinks he has found a “patristic consensus” when a mere five Church Fathers claim that Mary sinned. That supposedly shoots down Catholic Mariology in one fell swoop. Yet when I point out that no father from 0-300 A.D. accepted all 27 books of the New Testament and no others, as inspired and part of the Bible (Bible Alone being a crucial pillar of Protestantism – one cannot have the Bible without knowing which books belong to it), he offers no reply – and for very good reason, as there is none. The canon of the New Testament is necessarily dependent on Church Authority. Even the well-respected Calvinist R.C. Sproul admits that Protestants possess a “fallible collection of infallible books.” The analogy is an exact parallel, and devastating: if five fathers disprove Catholic Mariology, then not a single father getting the NT right for 300 years refutes sola Scriptura. So Bishop White must either drop his fallacious argument, or his acceptance of sola Scriptura, and with it, his Protestantism, which rests upon that formal principle. Silence was a wise course in the midst of such a serious dilemma.
That being the case (and I think he knew it full well), he asked, rather, whether I included Athanasius in this period (the “first three centuries,” as I stated). Well, no, since he lived from 296-373. He first listed our present 27 New Testament books as such in 367 A.D. (which is more than 300 years beyond even the death of our Lord Jesus). Disputes still persisted concerning several books after that, almost right up until 397, when the Canon was authoritatively closed at the Council of Carthage, so that the present-day “perspicuous” NT canon took longer to finalize than trinitarianism and the divinity of the Holy Spirit! But I guess a “consensus of one” in the year 367 is good enough for Bishop White, provided that it is harmonious with his own largely 16th-century-derived Baptist version of Christianity. This is all doctrinal development, pure and simple. But Protestants – for some odd reason – so often wish to ignore it when it touches upon their own peculiar doctrines.
 
How is it that Bishop White is so concerned about five fathers attributing fairly minor and very rare sin to the Blessed Virgin Mary, while in the “late” period from 250-325, the “perspicuous” biblical books of Hebrews, James, 2 Peter, 2 John, 3 John, Jude, and Revelation were still being widely disputed in the Church Universal? Is that state of affairs not far more fatal to Protestant claims concerning Scripture Alone, than minor dissent on Mary is to the Catholic position? 
 
8. Fathers’ Unanimity on Baptismal Regeneration Bishop White cleverly avoided the issue I was raising, in terms of the live chat, but he can’t escape the logic of it, for the fathers taught baptismal regeneration with virtually literal unanimity. Yet White, of course, rejects both infant baptism (over against Calvin and the great majority of all Christians of all times) and baptismal regeneration (over against Luther and Wesley and Anglicanism, as well as Orthodoxy and Catholicism). It doesn’t seem to trouble him that no one in the whole patristic period could “get it right,” just as we saw was the case concerning the canon of the NT and the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist. On the other hand, his non-answer perhaps suggests that he is troubled – down deep – by all these “little” historical anomalies in his position, which I am discourteous and rash enough to point out.
9. The Unanswered Challenge I wish he would have. That might have been very interesting. But soon, there were some technical problems with the Undernet; Bishop White departed and never returned, even though I hung around for perhaps an hour or more after our exchange ended. But I’m thankful for the time I was able to spend with him in dialogue. I think his answers and non-answers strengthened the Catholic case considerably. :-) A few days later,Bishop White refused to debate me in any format, about anything (even though I offered to let him question me all night long, if I could question him for 90 minutes), and stated that he wanted nothing to do with me anymore (see Note #1 above – section on “Bishops”). So we’ll never know what his larger case might have been.
 
10. Written vs. “Oral”/”Live” Dialogue Indeed, I’ve spent a good many more hours than three preparing these notes, and I think they are all quite relevant to the questions dealt with in the dialogue. My point, then and now, is that the written and “oral” (or “live”) dialogue formats are vastly different. Bishop White seemed to require me to give rapid answers to his lightning-quick and ever-changing technical questions concerning particular patristic beliefs. That was not possible (I wouldn’t be able to type fast enough even if I had all the answers in my head), but I believe I managed to “de-fang” him by the use of analogy, which has been fleshed out to full effect in these notes.
December 2, 2015

Cover (555 x 838)

My book (2013, 395 pages; available for as low as $1.99).

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James White is the most influential anti-Catholic polemicist today. He’s written a ton of books (though not all about Catholicism), does lots of oral debates, and has had a website for some 20 years now. Hang around anti-Catholics much and you’ll hear his name pretty soon, and often. He’s their big champion. The anti-Catholic is one who thinks that Catholicism is not a species of Christianity; that one cannot be saved while being a good Catholic (accepting all that the Church teaches). One can be saved, however (so they tell us) by being a “bad Catholic” (i.e., picking and choosing Catholic doctrines).

In 1995 I ran across his name in a directory of cult researchers (that I was also listed in, since specializing in cults was one of my first major apologetics projects). I discovered that he was anti-Catholic, along with some others in the book, and so decided to write a form letter to several, about the issue (snail mail; I was not yet on the Internet). He responded back with a lengthy letter, to which I replied very fully. Then he wrote back again, in a far more acerbic tone, and I replied with a 36-page, single-spaced letter. At that point he resorted to severe personal insult and ceased the debate altogether. This all occurred in March-May 1995. I have the hard copies of the typewritten replies he sent me in my possession.

This was the most in-depth writing I have ever done concerning the fundamental question of the Christian status of Catholicism. I’ve never been able to get an anti-Catholic to fully deal with the issue, in an honest debate. In fact, in 2007, I was so tired of trying to get into such a discussion, that I challenged six or seven prominent anti-Catholics (including Mr. White) to a “live chat” debate on the question. They all refused: most of them with rank insults. Because of that, I decided that I would no longer seek to engage anti-Catholics in theological debate (apart from very few exceptions), since they refused to grapple with the root issue of what Christianity is, and why they think Catholicism isn’t Christian. One can’t really have a true dialogue until fundamental differences are addressed.

Ever since 1995, White would occasionally critique something of mine: especially from my books or radio interviews. It was always the same: he started out with ostensible argument. I refuted what he wrote, then he came back with personal insults. It never went more than one round. He’s simply not interested in real, substantive debate, where the two parties actually interact with each other’s arguments. In his oral debates, he merely preaches his message, and obfuscates and spins and special pleads regarding whatever the other guy says. We’ve had exactly one “live chat” debate, which took place in his venue on 29 December 2000: about Mary and the Church fathers. I immediately posted it on my site. He never has. He’s never posted or linked to this debate, either, whereas I have had it on my site for 19 years running.

My other interactions with Mr. White can be read on my web page devoted to him, and also in my 400-page book that collects the major “exchanges” (if we can even call them that. They were mostly my refutations and his insults back or heading for the hills).

The “snail mail debate” I link to below takes up 103 pages in my book devoted to Mr. White. Needless to say, he has utterly ignored the book: never said a word about it, ever (that I am aware of). I can fully understand why . . .

My good friend Phil Porvaznik has posted the entire debate in neat, presentable html-linked form on one web page on his site. Enjoy!

October 28, 2013

Cover (555 x 838)

(10-28-13)

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An anti-Catholic– in scholarly usage – is not merely a person who differs with Catholicism. Nor does it refer to someone who “hates” Catholics or opposes all things Catholic simply because they are Catholic. And it doesn’t refer to emotions or opposition to individuals, but rather, to Catholic theology.
The anti-Catholic is one who thinks that Catholicism is not a Christian system of theology and that to be a good Christian and get saved, one must be a bad Catholic; that is, reject several tenets of Catholicism that differ with Protestantism; or in the case of Orthodox anti-Catholics, with Orthodoxy.
But first let me introduce the man who is the subject of this book. James White (b. 1962) is a Reformed Baptist apologist, author, public speaker and debater, and elder at his church. He does many other things in his apologetics besides oppose Catholic theology, and many of these are good and worthwhile endeavors; for example, his critiques of Islam (his recent emphasis), the King James Only viewpoint, theological liberalism, Mormonism, and atheism.
By and large, in dealing with these topics, he does a good job, in my opinion, and I have often publicly commended him for it. When it comes to Catholicism, on the other hand, it’s quite a different story. In that domain he falls into the typical (and rather outrageous) errors of anti-Catholic thought.
Mr. White is the founder and director of Alpha and Omega Ministries, which began in 1983. In 1990 he started concentrating on critiquing Catholicism, and produced his first two books on the topic: The Fatal Flaw, and Answers to Catholic Claims (both by Crowne Publications: 1990). His other books (out of 26) that are devoted wholly or largely to Catholicism, include The Roman Catholic Controversy (1996), Mary – Another Redeemer? (1998), The God Who Justifies (2001), and Scripture Alone (2004): all published by Bethany House.
White obtained an M.A. Degree in theology from Fuller Theological seminary in 1989. During the mid-90s as the Internet began to flourish, he began devoting a lot of time and energy to that medium, and he started his weekly webcast, The Dividing Line, in September 1998. It often deals with Catholicism. He developed a website and blog, with voluminous writings, as well.
He is probably most known (and renowned) for his formal oral debates. According to his website he has done 117 of these, starting in August 1990, including 38 devoted to various Catholic beliefs: or 32% of all his debates. He engaged in more than one debate with apologists such as Fr. Mitch Pacwa (five), Robert Fastiggi (four), Tim Staples (three), and Patrick Madrid (two).
White also has challenged me to oral debate on three occasions: 1995, 2001, and 2007. Thus, he averages a request every six years (even though – oddly enough – he constantly asserts that I am a profound imbecile and ignoramus in theological and exegetical matters), and is due to ask me again before this year is out. Perhaps this book will be the impetus.
My answer was the same in every instance: I regard oral debates as vastly inferior to written debate and I don’t cultivate public speaking, in any event. I note that White is also a writer, whereas I am a writer only, so that the written medium is where we could and should best interact: the common ground.
“Debating” in the title of this volume is especially apt, as it highlights how Mr. White views himself and how he – by all appearances – especially wants to be known. I love debate and dialogue, myself, as a longtime socratic and apologist. Christian apologists (defenders of the faith: in either its Protestant, Catholic, or Orthodox forms) certainly debate; if they don’t, they are surely not apologists worth their salt.
The question at hand, however, is how to define a debate, what one’s intentions are in undertaking one, and whether the truth is being defended while debating.

Mr. White engages in habitual “boilerplate” regarding his debates and those who (for whatever reason) decline to participate in them with him. One very common theme is his notion that writers “hide behind their keyboards” – they are (he thinks) intellectual cowards and scared to death to face him — the Terrifying and Unanswerable Scourge of Catholics – behind a podium in a public oral debate. Here are three examples:

Dr. Stauffer: Brave Behind the Keyboard, Unwilling to Defend His Assertions (article title: 3-25-06 on his blog)
. . . Armstrong continues to refuse to debate man to man in person, and wishes only to hide behind his keyboard where he knows that no one, and I mean no one, can possibly force him to answer a direct question. As long as you can use the written forum, you can avoid the very essence of debate, the heart of debate, which is answering direct questions that test your position for consistency. Armstrong knows he is simply constitutionally incapable of the task, but he refuses to admit it, opting instead for this kind of rhetoric. (7-12-07 on his blog)
There are far too many folks who hide behind a keyboard on web forums . . . (2-3-09 on his blog)
Mr. White’s typical treatment of yours truly (since 1995) is clearly observed above. I will try as much as is possible in this book to avoid documenting his constant juvenile and sub-Christian resort to personal insult, so as not to afflict readers with silly tedium (I wish to stick solely to theological issues). But removing White’s ubiquitous insults of his Catholic opponents in written records is very often about as easy as removing the white stripe from a candy cane: it’s so intermingled as to be impossible to extricate from the substance. I’ll do my best! 
The other frequent and annoying theme with regard to Mr. White’s debates and his “spin” about them, is the notion that when an oral debate did occur and the other party didn’t make it available in his venue, this “proves” a tacit admission of defeat. Here’s an absolutely classic instance of that polemic, from a website article (9-18-00) reprinted on 12-28-12 on his blog:
I have seen my opponents use many tactics to cover over poor performances in debates. You will find documented on this website at least one imaginative approach taken by Catholic Answers back in 1993 when Patrick Madrid attempted to do damage control after our sola scriptura debate in San Diego by writing “The White Man’s Burden” in This Rock magazine . . . 
 
But never before have we seen such complete and utter admission of defeat than we are seeing from St. Joseph Communications regarding the July debate with Tim Staples on Papal Infallibility in Fullerton, California . . . 
 
. . . we have learned that Saint Joseph’sis still not selling the audio tapes of the debate, and that more than two months after the encounter. We have been making the tapes available since the week after the debate. We made it available as soon as we possibly could. . . . you cannot, as of today (September 18th, 2000), order the debate from Saint Joseph’s. Why not?
Of course, White has never ever linked to our own first lengthy 1995 “postal debate.” He gave me permission to post it on my website, but he has never linked to it. Thus, if we follow his reasoning above, how is that not an admission that he lost the debate (especially given the fact that he left my final 36-page single-spaced response utterly unanswered)? Otherwise, why wouldn’t he encourage folks read our exchange, so they can see how marvelously he allegedly did and how miserably I did?
White would respond that our exchange was not a debate in the first place, because it wasn’t moderated or live in front of an audience. It would be tough to argue with a straight face that a debate must always be oral and can never be in writing. That would take out, for example, many of the famous debates in the 16th century between Catholics and Protestants, such as those between Erasmus and Martin Luther, or John Calvin and Cardinal Sadoleto. It would also entail the absurd position that the ancient philosopher Plato wrote no dialogues or debates (often reconstructions of the great Socrates engaging in dialogue).
For my part, I have had a consistent track record in favor of written, point-by-point exchanges where two parties seriously interact with each other and engage in several rounds of back-and-forth response. I have participated in well over 700 of these on my blog and earlier website, since 1996 when I first went online. I wrote at length about the relative merits of oral and written debate in a website paper dated January 2001:
It is said that in a public, oral debate, obfuscation, or “muddying the waters” is minimized by the other person’s ability to correct errors immediately, and to “call” the opponent on this, that, or the other fact or argument. But this assumes that immediate, spur-of-the-moment corrections are more compelling than a correction which resulted from hours of careful research with primary sources, Scripture, etc. 
It is said that live oral debates are a better use of time; that things can be said quicker than they can in writing. But I respond that truth takes time to find and communicate. Propaganda, on the other hand (such as the norm of today’s political rhetoric) is very easy to quickly spout. Evangelicalism lends itself far more easily to shallow rhetoric and slogans; Catholicism does not. It is complex, nuanced, and requires much thought and study. And thought takes time, no matter how you slice the cake. Again, truth and the acquisition of knowledge and wisdom requires time. 
It is claimed that there is more interest in oral public debates. I’m not so sure about that, especially with the advent of the Internet, but perhaps this is true. In any event, that has no bearing on my own objections. It is not public debate per se I am opposed to, but the perversion of it by unworthy tactics and methods, which is the usual result when one is dealing with anti-Catholics. So I am actually supporting what I consider to be true debate, not the pale imitations of it which pass for “debates.” 
It is asserted that it’s harder to get away with lies and half-truths in the public arena. Quite the contrary, I would maintain; it is much easier to disinform and misinform, because one can put up an appearance of confidence and truth very easily, through rhetorical technique, catch-phrases, cleverness, playing to the crowd, etc. These things are by no means as “certain” as avid proponents of oral debate make them out to be. 
It is stated (by anti-Catholics) that Catholics don’t fare well in public oral debates. Under my thesis, I could readily agree with that. It is true that the Catholic faith is not conducive to an environment where sophistical carnival-barker, used-car salesman types try to distort, twist, and misrepresent it at every turn (and this need not be deliberate at all: it matters not — the end result is the same).
In an earlier paper (11-27-00) I wrote:
The Catholic position is not well-presented at such “debates” (i.e., public, oratorical ones) because it is complex, highly interrelated, and (in its complexity, spiritual profundity, and inner logic) much more a “thinking man’s religion” than Protestantism is. Presenting such an outlook can’t very easily be done in a time-limited debate where our opponent is playing the audience like a carnival barker or a dishonest politician. It can be done in a book or a lengthy article, or in a website which deals with all the interrelated topics (or at least links to them), so that the inquirer can learn how they are thoroughly biblical, coherent, and true to history (and development of doctrine is also another huge and crucial, necessary factor not easily summarized or even understood by many).
 
Again, it has to do with the complexity and interrelatedness of the Catholic position, and the difficulty in promulgating it in sound-bytes, as is the case in so many brands of evangelicalism. Websites are uniquely designed to teach the faith, if this complexity is granted (with the technology of links). I think the only near-equivalent to this in live debate would be a series of debates, one after the other, so that the faith can be seen in its many dimensions and in its marvelous cohesiveness: what I would call a “cumulative apologetic argument.”
 
In a debate about papal infallibility, for instance, it would be necessary to also have debates on apostolic succession, episcopacy, the nature of the Church, indefectibility, the nature of authority, NT teaching on Tradition, development of doctrine, the self-defeating nature of sola Scriptura, etc. I don’t think the average Protestant has any hope of understanding papal infallibility (and “problems” like the Honorius case) without some knowledge of these other presuppositional issues. 
 
In short, then, I think that any number of Catholic apologists could and would win such a debate on content (because our argument is true, and many apologists could convincingly present it), yet “lose” it in terms of impact on the audience, and in terms of the difficulty of persuading even those fair-minded or predisposed to be convinced of our side. We should take before and after surveys of people who attend these “debates” to see whether what I suspect is true or not (and make it a condition of the debate).
 
If we must debate these sophists and cynically clever men, at least we need to make sure they have to also defend their position and not just run ours down with the standard, garden-variety anti-Catholic gibberish, bolstered with “quasi-facts” and half-truths presented in a warped, distorted fashion. Those who don’t know any better will always be taken in by those tactics (which is exactly why anti-Catholics continue to use them, consciously or not).
 
Most public debate formats will not allow a fair exchange to occur, due to complexity of subject matter, and the stacked deck which requires us to defend complex truths, while the anti-Catholic escapes his responsibility of defending the generally unexamined absurdities and self-contradictions of his own position. Many anti-Catholics are never, ever willing to defend their own view beyond the usual trivial, sloganistic, sarcastic jibes.
 
It depends in large part on how one defines “debate” or being “good at it.” If by that is meant that a person is able to be quick on his feet and offer both objections and answers; sure, many anti-Catholics are (especially the more educated ones). If, however, one means by being a good debater, being honest with the facts and honestly dealing with one’s opponents best shots, most professional anti-Catholics are atrocious.
These are my opinions about the shortcomings of circus-like oral “debates” with anti-Catholic apologists, and the main rationale for why I don’t engage in them. If someone thinks that written debate is not debate, then this book is not for them, since it will mostly consist of written debates and point-by-point critiques. But for those who agree with me that written, back-and-forth, substantive exchanges are worthy of the name “debate,” this book will be a (hopefully helpful) close examination of the flawed theology of James White and his critiques of Catholicism. 
In fact, despite his “oral debate only” rhetoric, Mr. White has written or contributed to at least two books that consisted of debates with others: Debating Calvinism vs. Dave Hunt (Multnomah: 2004), and The Plurality of Elders in Perspectives on Church Government: Five Views of Church Polity (Broadman-Holman: 2004). He’s surely debated me, too. 
 
I’m happy, as always, to present both sides and let the reader judge. This is the beauty of dialogue or even non-dialogical exchanges where at least one person defends a true position. The truth will always shine through if one is open to following it wherever it may lead. White’s efforts at debunking Catholicism fail first and foremost because he is opposing what is true. “You can’t make a silk purse out of a sow’s ear.”
The material will be presented chronologically, and Mr. White’s words (excepting the first very long debate) will be italicized. If his position is so superior, it’ll withstand all this close scrutiny, But if not . . . 
* * * * *
 
October 10, 2013

WorksofMercy
Works of Mercy (c. 1680), by Pierre Montallier (1643-1697) [public domain / Wikimedia Commons]

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(10-10-13)

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This took place spontaneously in a Facebook post announcing a new paper of mine. Bethany is a very friendly evangelical with Calvinist leanings. Her words will be in blue.

* * * * *

We are justified by our faith and our works, and it is not of ourselves. It’s not a contradiction when James says we are justified by works, because if we are saved we will necessarily have works…

For example, you can’t control your own conception or birth, and Jesus metaphorically explained salvation as being “born again”.  A baby is born, not of his own will, but of God’s. A baby cannot will himself into existence, and neither can one dead in trespasses and sins will themselves into being made alive in Christ.

How do we know a baby is alive? By seeing if he is breathing, kicking, sucking, etc. By the baby’s works, we find evidence he has been born. This is the way we come to the conclusion that he is alive.

In the same way, our works “justify” in that they provide evidence for our rebirth. A baby can only be born once, and likewise one can be spiritually born only once.

We don’t disagree on those matters, as I noted.

So you don’t believe we in any way earn our salvation?  

We can’t earn our salvation by our own efforts, considered in isolation from God’s grace (the heresy of Pelagianism). We can, however merit in God’s sight by applying the gift of God that He gave us (as St. Augustine put it: God “crowning His own gifts”), and working together with Him. After regeneration and initial justification we can do meritorious works, enabled and bathed in God’s grace.

These are not abstractly separated from salvation and put in a neat little box of “sanctification only,” as Reformed and other Protestants do. Since true biblical justification is infused and transformative, works are part of justification.

Hence we find that, e.g., in 50 Bible passages I’ve found about the final judgment, only works are mentioned and never faith. One cannot help but to find that striking.

If they’re not completely separated from salvation, isn’t that saying they play a role in achieving salvation?

Yes, in the sense I said. The problem is that Protestants almost always misunderstand the exact sense that Catholics believe in. 90% of all such discussions require time spent simply explaining what we believe, because the misunderstandings are so massive and systematic.

If you read my recent paper vs. James White, I explain much of this in it. I wrote in the paper, citing one of my own books [Bible Proofs for Catholic Truths]:

For the Catholic, justification is not the same thing as salvation or the attainment of eternal life. It can be lost or rejected by means of human free will and disobedience. So, to assert “justification by works,” even in a qualified sense, is not at all the same as asserting salvation by works. Therefore, it is scripturally improper to assert either salvation by works alone or salvation by faith alone. They are never taught in Holy Scripture, and are both denied more than once. Justification by faith or justification by works can be asserted in a limited sense, as Scripture does: always understood as hand-in-hand with the other two elements in the grace-faith-works triumvirate.

Also from the paper:

Catholics believe we are justified by faith and also by grace-based works done by the regenerate believer in conjunction with faith, as a co-laborer with God (1 Cor 3:9; 15:10; 2 Cor 6:1). . . . The Bible elsewhere freely places Rahab’s faith and works together. They are of a piece: neither can or should be ignored:

Hebrews 11:31 [RSV] By faith Rahab the harlot did not perish with those who were disobedient, because she had given friendly welcome to the spies.

Notice the “because” in the verse? Moreover, it is not foreign Scripture, to expressly state that works are the cause of justification or even a central criterion for eternal life. We’ve already noted this in Paul, above. Here it is again (repetition being a good teaching device):

Romans 2:13 For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified.


So you don’t believe the works themselves in any way merit salvation, except in the sense Protestants believe… That our works are the fruit of our salvation and not our means of earning or keeping it?

I did read most of the article… Okay I skimmed it… But I do feel confused about what you’re saying because it sounds like you’re saying two things.

I have talked to many Catholics who believe that you must work in order to enter heaven… Not as a result of salvation but the cause of it. I once had a friend who I asked, if you were standing before God and he asked you why he should let you into heaven, what would you say? She replied, not mentioning Christ once, but listing her various works.

And she was very scriptural, because that is what the Bible always gives as a reason to enter heaven. I found 50 of these passages.

But in the case of Rahab the harlot, the Bible also refers to her faith, which was the cause of her works.

I will send you my book on salvation: e-book in a PM. I also have lots of material on my Justification and Salvation page that goes over all these sorts of questions.

Thanks Dave, I’ll read it.

If we can tell God that he should let us in on the basis of our works, then that nullifies, “lest any man should boast.”

Why does Scripture mention works only every time it discusses the last judgment and being let into heaven or sent to hell? Matthew 25 is the classic . . . I wouldn’t argue that this means faith is no factor, but the fact remains that it is absent in all those accounts. Therefore, works cannot be separated from the equation of final salvation. But they are always accompanied by faith and enabled by God’s free grace.

It’s not boasting about works, but showing one’s genuine faith via works, as in James; showing that it is a real faith and not dead, lifeless, unfruitful faith.

It’s showing faith that on the basis of works, and not Christs atonement, God should allow you into heaven though. The question was “why should I let you in heaven”. If the answer to “why” is “because I was good”, that is boasting in your works to enter heaven.

The Bible talks about works the same reason I say a baby is alive because of his works (breathing, crying, etc.) Could a baby boast that he breathes? Or cries? Those abilities only came through the credit of God. 

Whatever you call it; it’s scriptural. Our answer to God’s question of why we should go to heaven when we stand before Him, could incorporate any one or all of the following 50 responses: all perfectly biblical, and many right from the words of God Himself:

1) I am characterized by righteousness.
2) I have integrity.
3) I’m not wicked.
4) I’m upright in heart.
5) I’ve done good deeds.
6) I have good ways.
7) I’m not committing abominations.
8 ) I have good conduct.
9) I’m not angry with my brother.
10) I’m not insulting my brother.
11) I’m not calling someone a fool.
12) I have good fruits.
13) I do the will of God.
14) I hear Jesus’ words and do them.
15) I endured to the end.
16) I fed the hungry.
17) I provided drink to the thirsty.
18) I clothed the naked.
19) I welcomed strangers.
20) I visited the sick.
21) I visited prisoners.
22) I invited the poor and the maimed to my feast.
23) I’m not weighed down with dissipation.
24) I’m not weighed down with drunkenness.
25) I’m not weighed down with the cares of this life.
26) I’m not ungodly.
27) I don’t suppress the truth.
28) I’ve done good works.
29) I obeyed the truth.
30) I’m not doing evil.
31) I have been a “doer of the law.”
32) I’ve been a good laborer and fellow worker with God.
33) I’m unblamable in holiness.
34) I’ve been wholly sanctified.
35) My spirit and soul and body are sound and blameless.
36) I know God.
37) I’ve obeyed the gospel.
38) I’ve shared Christ’s sufferings.
39) I’m without spot or blemish.
40) I’ve repented.
41) I’m not a coward.
42) I’m not faithless.
43) I’m not polluted.
44) I’m not a murderer.
45) I’m not a fornicator.
46) I’m not a sorcerer.
47) I’m not an idolater.
48) I’m not a liar.
49) I invited the lame to my feast.
50) I invited the blind to my feast.


Where does Jesus get glory in all of that list?

It’s not boasting. We understand that it is from God. Yet we still did them, working with God’s grace, as Paul says: “working together with him . . . ” “Boasting” in the sense that Paul condemns would be saying that “I did these works with no help from God’s grace at all; therefore I have earned heaven.” That is the Pelagian heresy.

What he did on Calvary just seems ignored… And that is my main problem. He became sin for us. All of our sin was laid on him. By his stripes we were healed. Sin was inputed to him, and righteousness was imputed to us.

He gets the glory as the source of the grace that enabled all the works. This is what the Bible says: all that is straight from biblical accounts. If you say it is not giving God glory then your beef is with the Bible itself and Jesus and Paul’s and other’s words, not with Catholicism. Read Jesus’ words in Matthew 25:

Matthew 25:31-46 When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, and he will place the sheep at his right hand, but the goats at the left. Then the King will say to those at his right hand, `Come, O blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’ Then the righteous will answer him, `Lord, when did we see thee hungry and feed thee, or thirsty and give thee drink? And when did we see thee a stranger and welcome thee, or naked and clothe thee? And when did we see thee sick or in prison and visit thee?’ And the King will answer them, `Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me.’ Then he will say to those at his left hand, `Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels; for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ Then they also will answer, `Lord, when did we see thee hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to thee?’ Then he will answer them, `Truly, I say to you, as you did it not to one of the least of these, you did it not to me.’ And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.

But notice that the sheep asked him, when did we do these things? They did not recall their goodness for merit. 

I hope you know I’m not trying to be annoying with these questions. 

You’re not interacting with the biblical data . . . . this was the same problem with White’s chapter. He read into the text things that weren’t there, whereas I exegeted it and gave relevant cross-references.

When we stand before a righteous and holy God, can we really see ourselves as righteous except by his imputed righteousness? Isaiah cried, I am a man of unclean lips… Was he not a righteous man?

Yes, and now you’ve stumbled into why purgatory is so necessary. Thanks! We make it to heaven because we’ve exercised faith by God’s grace, in Jesus; accepting His death on the cross on our behalf; exhibited by works. Now we have to be made actually holy and without sin, and that’s where purgatory is necessary for almost all of us.

No; that is the reason that atonement is necessary. That is why when God asks, “why should I let you into heaven?” I can say , “thank you for providing a lamb to take place of me, taking on the full penalty for all of my sins, so that I could enter heaven. Thank you for your promise, your free gift.” Purgatory implies that Jesus payment was not enough.

You can say that; sure. My point was that whenever Scripture deals with this exact topic, that is never what it describes as being said; rather, it’s always works. And that is what you have to grapple with: why that is. The same Jesus also said:

Matthew 7:16-23 You will know them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thorns, or figs from thistles? [17] So, every sound tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears evil fruit. [18] A sound tree cannot bear evil fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. [19] Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. [20] Thus you will know them by their fruits. [21] “Not every one who says to me, `Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. [22] On that day many will say to me, `Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ [23] And then will I declare to them, `I never knew you; depart from me, you evildoers.’

Ok well I will agree to disagree for now.

Like I said, you’re not disagreeing with me, but multiple instances of inspired Scripture. All I’ve done is cite Scripture on this. James explains all of this nicely, and that was the topic of White’s chapter that I replied to:

James 2:14-26 What does it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith but has not works? Can his faith save him? [15] If a brother or sister is ill-clad and in lack of daily food, [16] and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what does it profit? [17] So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead. [18] But some one will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I by my works will show you my faith. [19] You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe — and shudder. [20] Do you want to be shown, you shallow man, that faith apart from works is barren? [21] Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? [22] You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works, [23] and the scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness”; and he was called the friend of God. [24] You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. [25] And in the same way was not also Rahab the harlot justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way? [26] For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead.

Echoed by Paul:

Romans 2:5-13 But by your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God’s righteous judgment will be revealed. [6] For he will render to every man according to his works: [7] to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; [8] but for those who are factious and do not obey the truth, but obey wickedness, there will be wrath and fury. [9] There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, [10] but glory and honor and peace for every one who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek. [11] For God shows no partiality. [12] All who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law. [13] For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified.

I’m sorry I realized that sounded abrupt. I didn’t mean it to sound that way. I had a baby crying in the background so had to tend to him.

We have both cited Scripture. You more than me since I was basically asking questions, but I agree with all the scripture you post. We have disagreement on the interpretation of those scriptures. You agree there, I’m sure.

No problem, Bethany!

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August 23, 2009

Cover (555 x 838)

[Nov. 2013; 395 pages. See full book and purchase information]
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[James White informed me in a letter dated 10 January 2001 that he was a bishop: “I am an elder in the church: hence, I am a bishop, overseer, pastor, of a local body of believers”. So I have called him that ever since [see more material giving the background and rationale for this, based on White’s own stated beliefs]. As for his supposed doctorate (hence my quotation marks and question mark), see the appropriate section below. Thus we have the double irony of his not wanting to be called what he claims he is (a bishop), while he falsely calls himself what he clearly isn’t (an academic “Doctor” with an authentic, earned doctorate degree]
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BASIC ISSUES / ANTI-CATHOLICISM / THE GREAT DEBATE


Is Catholicism Christian or Not? [“Postal Debate”: March-May 1995]

Part I: Introduction and My Initial Form Letter (23 March 1995)

Part II: Mr. White’s 7-Page Initial Reply (6 April 1995)

Part III: My 16-Page First Counter-Reply (22 April 1995)

Part IV: Mr. White’s 17-Page Second Counter-Reply (4 May 1995)

Part V: My 36-Page Second Counter-Reply (15 May 1995) and Mr. White’s One-Page “Reply” (10 November 1995)

My Four Ballyhooed Debates w Anti-Catholics (All Forfeited): My Opponent Split Before It Was Over, Every Time (!) [5-21-20]

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BIBLE AND TRADITION / SOLA SCRIPTURA / RULE OF FAITH / CRITIQUE OF MY BOOK, THE CATHOLIC VERSES

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Dialogue on “Perspicuous Apostolic Teaching” [May-June 1996]

“Moses’ Seat” & Jesus vs. Sola Scriptura [12-27-03]

Jerusalem Council vs. Sola Scriptura [9-2-04]

James White Critiques My Book, The Catholic Verses (Introduction) [12-29-04]:

Part I: Binding Tradition [12-30-04]

Part II: Rabbit Trail Diversion [12-30-04]

Part III: Ad Hominem [12-31-04]

Part IV: I’m an Ignorant Convert? [12-31-04]

Part V: Deceiver Dave [1-1-05]

Part VI: Penance and Redemptive Suffering [1-2-05]

Refutation of James White: Moses’ Seat, the Bible, and Tradition (Introduction: #1) (+Part II | Part III | Part IV | Part V | Part VI) [5-12-05]

The Catholic Verses: James White Ain’t Got a Clue [10-1-07]

St. Athanasius Was a CATHOLIC, Not a Proto-Protestant (+ Counter-Reply to James White on Tradition, etc.) [12-26-07]

Vs. James White #2: Sola Scriptura Debate w Matatics, Pt. 1 [9-17-19]

Vs. James White #3: Sola Scriptura Debate w Matatics, Pt. 2 [9-18-19]

Rome, the Biblical Canon, & Tradition (vs. Turretinfan & James White) . . . Observed in the Views of John of Damascus (aka John Damascene: c. 676-749) [11-7-19]

Vs. James White #10: Arbitrary Tradition Re the Canon [11-14-19]

Vs. James White #14: Word of God / the Lord Usually Oral (+ White’s Own Erroneous Definition of Sola Scriptura in 1990 (at the same time I got it right) [11-18-19]

Vs. James White #16: St. Basil Held to Sola Scriptura? [11-19-19]

I Refuted James White’s Favorite Defenses of Sola Scriptura [11-11-19; expanded on 5-11-20]

Hebrews 10:12, Vulgate, & the Mass (James White’s Lie) [9-3-21]

“Reformed Biblicism”: Reply to James White [8-17-22]

Jerusalem Council Disproves Sola Scriptura (vs. James White) [2-28-24]

Church Fathers & Sola Scriptura: Reply To James White Claims: Myths Regarding Cyprian, Augustine, Basil the Great, John Chrysostom, Cyril of Jerusalem, Athanasius [3-16-24]

Comment: James White vs. Tim Staples on the Rule Of Faith (Including St. Athanasius’ Rule of Faith & the Indefectibility of the OT “Proto-Church”) [5-9-24]

Debate On Sola Scriptura (vs. Bishop “Dr.” [?] James White) [5-13-24]

Reply to James White On Oral Tradition [5-13-24]

Sola Scriptura: Reply to James White (Akin Debate) [5-16-24]

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CHRISTOLOGY

Who’s Ignorant: “Schizo Jesus” or Bishop James White? [10-19-22]

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DEBATE CHALLENGES (WHITE’S PERSISTENT REFUSAL TO ENGAGE IN WRITTEN OR “LIVE CHAT” DEBATE)

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EUCHARIST / SACRIFICE OF THE MASS

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Sacrifice of the Mass & Hebrews 8 (vs. James White) [3-31-04]

Vs. James White #5: Real Eucharistic Presence or Symbolism? [9-20-19]


THE BLESSED VIRGIN MARY

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Assumption & Immaculate Conception: Part of Apostolic Tradition (dialogue) [June 1996]

“Live Chat” Debate on Mary (vs. James White) [12-29-00; “footnotes” added shortly afterwards]

Critique of Mary — Another Redeemer? by James White (Whitewashing History: By William Possidento and Dave Armstrong) [3-12-04; slight revisions and updated links: 6-12-20] 

Defense of Critique of Jame’s White’s Misinformed Mariology (particularly with regard to the differing views on early Mariology of Protestant Church historians J.N.D. Kelly and Philip Schaff) (vs. James Swan) [3-15-04 and 9-7-05]

“Marian Stains”: “Dr.” [???] James White Gets His Wish! [4-23-05] 

Mary Mediatrix and the Church Fathers (+ Documentation That White Accepts the Scholarship of the Protestant Church Historians I Cite [J. N. D. Kelly and Philip Schaff] ) [9-7-05] 

James White’s Relentless Sophistry in Our Live Chat on Mariology [12-2-07]

Perpetual Virginity of Mary Mocked by James White [3-18-17]

Vs. James White #12: Mary the Woman of Revelation 12 [11-7-19]

My Four Ballyhooed Debates w Anti-Catholics (All Forfeited): My Opponent Split Before It Was Over, Every Time (!) [5-21-20]

A “Biblical” Immaculate Conception? (vs. James White) [8-27-21]

The Queen Mother & the Bible (vs. James White) [10-8-21]

Quick Refutation of James White Re Praying to Mary [Facebook, 5-10-24]

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THE PAPACY / COUNCIL OF NICAEA / ECCLESIOLOGY / DEVELOPMENT OF DOCTRINE

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Vs. James White #1: “Papal Pretensions” & “New” Apologists [9-16-19]

James White: Hypocritical Use of “Roman Catholic Church” [11-11-19]

Vs. James White #15: Canon & “Catholic” Traditions [11-18-19]

Thoughts: James White & Cameron Bertuzzi & Catholicism (Primarily Concerning the Papacy) [5-17-22]

Odd James White View Re Matthew 16:19 & the “Keys” [8-15-22]

Yes, James White; the Pope Is Infallible, Now, Just As He Always Has Been (I Educate Him as to Where Caving on the Nature of Marriage Has Actually Occurred) [Facebook, 2-26-24]

Quick Refutation of James White Re Papal Infallibility in the Bible [Facebook, 5-10-24]

Peter the Rock: Only a Catholic View? (vs. James White) [Includes Documentation of 14 Church Fathers Who Thought Peter Was the Rock] [5-11-24]

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PURGATORY AND TEMPORAL PUNISHMENT / PENANCE
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APOLOGETIC METHODOLOGY / PRESUPPOSITIONALISM 
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SOTERIOLOGY / SALVATION / TULIP / JUSTIFICATION / FAITH AND WORKS
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CRITIQUE OF MY BOOK, THE ONE-MINUTE APOLOGIST

 

COMMUNION OF SAINTS / INVOCATION OF SAINTS
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FAKE “DOCTORATE” / TEACHING CREDENTIALS

James White’s Bogus “Doctorate” Degree (vs. Mark Bainter) [9-16-04]

James White’s Bogus “Doctorate” Degree, Part II (vs. Jamin Hubner) [6-29-10]

James White Bogus “Doctorate” Issue Redux: Has No One Ever Interacted With His Self-Defense? / White Takes His Lumps from Baptist Peter Lumpkins [2-20-11]

Doktor James White on Fudging His Teaching Assignments (by Baptist Peter Lumpkins; see also my Facebook link and further comments and documentation in that combox) [3-23-11]

James White Compared to Adjunct Faculty Members at Golden Gate Baptist Theological Seminary [3-27-11; at Internet Archive]

James White’s “Doctorate”: Dialogue w Seminary’s Rick Walston [4-5-13]

James White is Working on a Doctorate? Huh?! [Facebook, 8-16-22]

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The Fake Degree of James White, A Cautionary Tale (You Tube Video by Dr. David A. Falk, an Egyptologist)

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INSULTS AND  AD HOMINEM ATTACKS 

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BAPTISM AND SACRAMENTALISM

Sacramentalism: James White Proves Augustine & Luther Aren’t Christians [original title: “Man-Centered” Sacramentalism: The Remarkable Incoherence of James White: How Can Martin Luther and St. Augustine Be Christians According to His Definition?] [11-26-03] 

Baptismal Regeneration: Refutation of James White [8-27-21]

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Last updated on 16 May 2024
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