2020-12-27T16:30:37-04:00

How are we taught to act with regard to Jesus’ birth and Christmas, according to Scriptural models? We do definitely have those. An angel of the Lord told the shepherds in the field near Bethlehem: “I bring you good news of a great joy which will come to all the people; for to you is born this day in the city of David a Savior, who is Christ the Lord” (Lk 2:10-11, RSV).
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Then a “multitude” of angels were “praising God and saying, ‘Glory to God in the highest'” because of the birth of Jesus (Lk 2:13-14). The shepherds, after finding Jesus and worshiping Him, were “glorifying and praising God for all they had heard and seen, as it had been told them” (Lk 2:20). Likewise, the wise men, along with their worship, “rejoiced exceedingly with great joy” (Mt 2:10).
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So we see how both angels and men reacted to the birth of Jesus, and it would seem to be a perfectly obvious response for Christians (we who follow and worship Jesus) to have. But an oh-so-pious extreme fringe of Calvinists wants to tell us that it’s wrong and unbiblical and immoral — against God’s will (and actually a form of idolatry!) — to celebrate the birth of Jesus our Lord and Savior and Redeemer. This is not only ridiculous in the highest degree, but wicked and blasphemous: to believe such a thing.

These are natural human emotions, and we can and should express them on holidays, with celebrations and happiness and joy and merriment. This is how King David acted before the ark of the covenant, which contained God’s special presence:
2 Samuel 6:5, 14-16, 21 (RSV) And David and all the house of Israel were making merry before the LORD with all their might, with songs and lyres and harps and tambourines and castanets and cymbals. . . . [14] And David danced before the LORD with all his might; . . . [15] So David and all the house of Israel brought up the ark of the LORD with shouting, and with the sound of the horn. [16] . . . King David leaping and dancing before the LORD . . . [21] And David said to Michal, “. . . I will make merry before the LORD.”
How much more do we and should we show joy and “make merry” and dance and play music to celebrate God becoming man? If we can’t be joyful and demonstrative about that (the Good News!), then we should about nothing at all.
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Facebook friend Arjay Alejo helpfully suggested the following related biblical passages:
I was just thinking maybe we can also use some passages from the Book of Esther as one of the biblical models of Christmas celebration. It is written in Esther chapters 8 and 9 that the Feast of Purim was established to commemorate “…the saving of the Jewish people from Haman, an Achaemenid Persian Empire official who was planning to kill all the Jews…” (Wikipedia). This feast was celebrated by the Jews in the way that we Christians celebrate Christmas or any holiday/ holy day as seen in the following passages:
Esther 8:15-17 And the city of Susa held a joyous celebration. For the Jews it was a time of happiness and joy, gladness and honor. In every province and in every city to which the edict of the king came, there was joy and gladness among the Jews, with feasting and celebrating.
Esther 9:17-18 This happened on the thirteenth day of the month of Adar, and on the fourteenth they rested and made it a day of feasting and joy. The Jews in Susa, however, had assembled on the thirteenth and fourteenth, and then on the fifteenth they rested and made it a day of feasting and joy.
Esther 9:19 That is why rural Jews—those living in villages—observe the fourteenth of the month of Adar as a day of joy and feasting, a day for giving presents to each other.
Esther 9:20-22 Mordecai recorded these events, and he sent letters to all the Jews throughout the provinces of King Xerxes, near and far, to have them celebrate annually the fourteenth and fifteenth days of the month of Adar as the time when the Jews got relief from their enemies, and as the month when their sorrow was turned into joy and their mourning into a day of celebration. He wrote them to observe the days as days of feasting and joy and giving presents of food to one another and gifts to the poor.
We can see that the Feast of Purim was not established by God but by a human being. Also, there are feasting, merrymaking, giving gifts to one another and other stuff people do during the Christmas season.

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Photo credit: geralt  (10-22-15) [PixabayPixabay License]

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2020-09-19T14:07:54-04:00

[SEE PART I]

TABLE OF CONTENTS

PART II

VI. Back to New Testament Tradition (and a Rabbit Trail of “Absolute Assurance”)

VII. Zapping Church History and Bashing the Church Fathers


VIII. Paul, Pagans, Prophets, Plato, Patristics, and Protestant Pastors


IX. Pastor Bayack’s Word vs. the Word of God, Calvin, & Luther (Gospel and Baptism)


X. Parting Shots From Pastor Bayack


XI. Postscript: Why Pastor Bayack Decided to End This Debate

* * * * *
VI. Back to New Testament Tradition (and a Rabbit Trail of “Absolute Assurance”)
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However, Stephen Ray remains undaunted. Catholic Tradition must survive and to prop it up he appeals to passages like 2 Thessalonians 2:15 and 3:6 where Paul exhorts the Thessalonians to keep the traditions that he gave them. It may seem as if he has found the support he needs. But are these verses part of the structure of Catholic Tradition or are they part of the explosion that brings it down? Let us look at each. In 2 Thessalonians 2, Paul is writing to this church to let them know that the day of the Lord has not yet come and that Jesus Christ has not yet returned for His bride (verses 1-2).
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He then goes on to explain in verses 3-12 what must first happen before the Lord returns which includes the frightful revelation of the “man of lawlessness . . . the son of destruction” (verse 3) and all of the chilling activity that comes with his advent. And lest believers think that somehow they will be in peril because of these future events, Paul gives them a marvelous word of comfort in verses 13-14, “But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth. And it was for this He called you through our gospel, that you may gain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ” (italics added). Finally, in light of these word Paul gives his command in verse 15, “So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught, whether by word of mouth or by letter from us.”
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What is the point? Simply this—Paul calls them to follow these traditions in light of their calling, election, and absolute certainty of their salvation, a teaching which is directly contradicted by Roman Catholic doctrine! This assurance is reinforced by what he said to them in his first letter, “For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ” (1 Thessalonians 5:9). In other words, whatever these traditions were, they were in harmony with the doctrine of the believer’s assurance which Catholicism has long rejected. The traditions of this verse are in direct conflict with the Tradition of Rome.
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First of all, this proves nothing at all with regard to the meaning of tradition because Pastor Bayack introduces a completely different subject matter. If he wishes to engage Catholics on the issues of soteriology, justification, assurance, etc., many of us Catholic apologists would be more than happy to oblige him, but to introduce that here is illogical and improper. Pastor Bayack’s burden is to show precisely what Paul means by his constant (not merely one-time) usage of tradition, and its being received and delivered.
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I have shown, by much exegetical and linguistic biblical evidence, presented above (and directly below), that he and other New Testament writers mean by this the gospelthe word of God, the faith, etc. They are all the same entity. This can be clearly shown by a dozen of St. Paul’s statements to the Thessalonians alone:

1 Thessalonians 1:5 for our gospel came to you not only in word, but also in power . . .

1 Thessalonians 1:6 . . . you received the word in much affliction . . .

1 Thessalonians 2:2 . . . we had courage in our God to declare to you the gospel of God . . .

1 Thessalonians 2:8 . . . ready to share with you not only the gospel of God but also our own selves . . .

1 Thessalonians 2:9 . . . we preached to you the gospel of God.

1 Thessalonians 2:13 . . . you received the word of God, which you heard from us, . . .

1 Thessalonians 4:1 . . . as you learned from us how you ought to live and to please God . . .

2 Thessalonians 1:8 . . . vengeance upon . . . those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.

2 Thessalonians 2:14 To this he called you through our gospel . . .

2 Thessalonians 2:15 . . . hold to the traditions . . . taught . . . by word of mouth or by letter.

2 Thessalonians 3:1 . . . pray for us, that the word of the Lord may speed on and triumph . . .

2 Thessalonians 3:6 . . . the tradition that you received from us.

Paul uses the words and phrases gospeltradition, and word of the Lord interchangeably even in the space of just five verses (2 Thessalonians 2:14-3:1)!!! So it is quite biblical and Pauline to say, “we must proclaim the saving tradition,” since “tradition” and “gospel” and “word of God” are synonymous in Paul’s mind and that of the Apostles. Therefore, this broad application can’t be reduced to a single usage and limited in its meaning, as the good pastor foolishly tries to do here.

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I’m sure Pastor Bayack would agree with me that a fundamental (characteristically Protestant) rule of hermeneutics, is to compare Scripture with Scripture. I have done that, where tradition (paradosis) is concerned, and quite comprehensively. Pastor Bayack has not. But if he wishes to do so now, I’d be absolutely delighted to interact with his response to my exegesis.
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Secondly, the argument he gives concerning “absolute certainty of salvation” is clearly logically fallacious (I shall treat it in passing, even though we stray from our subject). In 2 Thessalonians 2:13, Paul writes that God chose you from the beginning to be saved . . . Well, sure: God chooses and elects who is saved. And it is “present” to God, not future, as He is outside of time. Welcome to Christian Theology 0101. This is Catholic doctrine, and we believe in predestination (of the saved, but not the damned) as well.
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It is a binding dogma of the Church (for proof of this assertion, see related papers on my Salvation & Justification page). But Paul here does not teach that the believer himself is “absolutely” assured of his own salvation. The passage teaches nothing of the sort (only eisegesis forces it to); it merely states that God chooses his elect. God’s foreknowledge and omniscience are quite distinct from our fallible and sin-infected knowledge, as I’m sure Pastor Bayack would readily grant.
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Thirdly, does Pastor Bayack wish to argue that every person in the Thessalonian church was amongst the elect, so that we should take this verse absolutely literally? That would hardly be a tenable position. This is a corporate address, and cannot be applied literally to each and every person in that church. Communities are always a mixed bag; we know this from Paul’s letters to the Galatians and Corinthians, and Jesus’ reprimands of the “seven churches” (note that He still regards them as “churches” despite most being pitiable examples of Christianity at best) in the book of Revelation (and any Christian’s own experience). If there are a few Christians to be found even in the lowly Catholic Church, according to our friend, then certainly there were a few reprobates who hung around the Thessalonian church . . .
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Fourthly, the Apostle Paul himself possesses no such “absolute assurance” at all. Paul was not Luther, the one who was neurotically obsessed with figuring out whether God loved him or not. Paul is rather confident of God’s love, yet he never speaks of having already attained the prize of salvation:
1 Corinthians 9:27 but I pommel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified.
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1 Corinthians 10:12 Therefore let any one who thinks that he stands take heed lest he fall.
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Galatians 5:1, 4 . . . stand fast therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery . . . You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace.
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Philippians 3:11-14 that if possible I may attain the resurrection from the dead. Not that I have already obtained this or am already perfect; but I press on to make it my own, because Christ Jesus has made me his own. Brethren, I do not consider that I have made it my own . . . I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.
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1 Timothy 4:1 Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by giving heed to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons.
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1 Timothy 5:15 For some have already strayed after Satan.
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[See also 1 Samuel 11:6, 18:11-12, Ezekiel 18:24, 33:12-13, 18, Galatians 4:9, Colossians 1:23, Hebrews 3:12-14, 6:4-6, 11-12, 10:23, 26, 29, 36, 39, 12:15, 2 Peter 2:15, 20-21, Revelation 2:4-5]
Catholics believe that every person can have a moral assurance of salvation, provided we examine ourselves honestly and thoroughly to determine if we are in right relationship to God and not engaged in gravely sinful activities. We assert that this is the biblical view, seeing that it is often stated that “fornicators, adulterers, idolaters, liars, thieves,” etc. will not inherit the kingdom (salvation).
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Fifth, even John Calvin does not hold that someone other than God (I say, even the Apostle Paul, especially since he wasn’t even absolutely sure of his own election) could know whether another person was amongst the elect (though indeed he taught that one could be personally sure of their own election):
[W]e are not bidden to distinguish between reprobate and elect – that is for God alone, not for us, to do . . . (Institutes of the Christian Religion [McNeill / Battles edition, Philadelphia: Westminster Press, 1960], IV. 1. 3.)
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We must thus consider both God’s secret election and his inner call. For he alone “knows who are his” [II Tim. 2:19] . . . except that they bear his insignia by which they may be distinguished from the reprobate. But because a small and contemptible number are hidden in a huge multitude and a few grains of wheat are covered by a pile of chaff, we must leave to God alone the knowledge of his church, whose foundation is his secret election. It is not sufficient, indeed, for us to comprehend in mind and thought the multitude of the elect, unless we consider the unity of the church as that into which we are convinced we have been truly engrafted. (Ibid., IV.1. 2.)
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Of those who openly wear his badge, his eyes alone see the ones who are unfeignedly holy and will persevere to the very end [Matt. 24:13] – the ultimate point of salvation. (Ibid., IV.1. 8.)
Sixth, right in 2 Thessalonians 2:15, in the immediate context of Pastor Bayack’s citation, Paul speaks of the traditions being passed by word of mouth; oral tradition, which is anathema to the Protestant position. So our friend will say that this was to cease when the Bible was completed. That’s a nice opinion, but that is all it is: Pastor Bayack’s own arbitrary opinion. It is nowhere stated in the Bible; therefore it must be dismissed as an extrabiblical notion; therefore contrary to sola Scriptura and certainly not an indisputable tenet of belief (even granting Protestant premises). So, indeed, the tradition referred to here is no Protestant tradition, as it includes authoritative oral proclamation, which is never regarded as temporary by the Apostles.
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Seventh, if we wish to play this game of defining tradition by immediate context, rather than repeated usage, then Pastor Bayack’s argument will eventually backfire, simply by finding a context which goes against (much) Protestant teaching. For instance:
1 Corinthians 11:2 I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the traditions even as I have delivered them to you.
Following our friend’s method, let us see what the very next verse states (and how it will “define” this tradition):
1 Corinthians 11:3 But I want you to understand that the head of every man is Christ, the head of a woman is her husband . . .
Now, any evangelical Protestant who takes any sociological note at all of what is going on in his own theological circles knows full well that feminism and unisexism is launching an all-out assault and infiltrating evangelical circles left and right. And no biblical doctrine is more despised by a certain “enlightened” feminist outlook as outdated, “patriarchal,” and oppressive, than the headship of the husband. The point is that, once again (as always), Protestantism (even at official denominational levels) is caving into the zeitgeist and fads of our time.
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Apart from the ongoing ecclesiological and doctrinal chaos that has always typified Protestantism, there is certainly no present-day agreement about the meaning of this teaching of Paul, even in supposedly “orthodox” conservative evangelical circles. Yet (again, using Pastor Bayack’s own methodology against us), this is part and parcel of New Testament tradition! Paraphrasing our friend, and turning the tables:
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    Are these verses part of the structure of Protestant tradition [substitute the more accepted word “doctrine” for the faint of heart] or are they part of the explosion that brings it down?
If the example of 2 Thessalonians 2:15 and its context “brings down” Catholic Tradition, then by the same token, 1 Corinthians 11:2-3 must bring down all the liberalized, compromised, secularized, “feminized” churches which are present by the thousands even in the evangelical Protestant milieu. There is no denying the problem. Francis Schaeffer (whom I greatly admire; and whom Steve Ray once studied with, at L’Abri in Switzerland) was “prophetically” writing about it for several years before his death, which was in 1984.
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The same argument can be made concerning acceptance of divorce, abortion, premarital sex, female clergy, even homosexuality and euthanasia, in many evangelical circles today (not to mention contraception, which Luther and Calvin regarded as murder, and which all Christians opposed as gravely immoral before 1930). It is obvious that official, unchanging Catholic teaching on these and many other ethical, gender, sexual, and life issues, is far more in line with New Testament teaching than any particular brand of Protestantism is.
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Thus, I submit that it is Pastor Bayack’s argument (and by extension, his theological/ecclesiological system) which is “brought down” by an “explosion” of New Testament (and even internal Protestant) logic. Not that incoherence or moral and doctrinal relativism in Protestant thought and theology is a rare thing . . . But let’s go on and see what else he attempts to come up with in his ongoing mission to “explode” the Catholic acceptance of the tradition of the New Testament and the Apostles.
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Catholicism fares no better with a proper understanding of 2 Thessalonians 3:6. In that verse, Paul states, “Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you keep aloof from every brother who leads an unruly life and not according to the tradition that you received from us.” He then goes on to explain beginning in verse 7 how he, Silas, and Timothy all led disciplined lives and worked for their own bread. The tradition that Paul speaks of here deals with the work ethic that “if anyone will not work, neither let him eat” (verse 10), and has nothing to do with things like the Perpetual Virginity of Mary, the bodily assumption of Mary into heaven, etc.
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The Christian, apostolic, biblical tradition obviously includes ethical and behavioral elements. Does that mean, therefore, that it excludes various doctrinal elements (setting aside for the moment what exactly they might be)? This is an astonishingly weak and absurd and utterly irrelevant argument, especially coming from a trained minister of the gospel and student of the Bible. We obviously determine the complete extent of New Testament tradition by studying it as a whole. What Paul and Jesus teach in the New Testament books constitutes the tradition and gospel and word of the Lord. It is comprehensive; hence Jesus commands His followers, shortly before His Ascension, to baptize and make disciples, “teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you . . . ” (Matthew 28:20).
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But beyond that, we also look to the early Church to determine what the gospel and tradition and “deposit of faith” was. The Apostles and other early Christians went out to preach to the world, and they didn’t simply stand and read Scripture to the crowds (though they certainly used it). What the early Church and early Fathers believed gives us a clue as to the whole extent of this New Testament tradition. They didn’t forget everything (at that early stage, they even had firsthand memory of what Jesus or His disciples had told them) as soon as the Bible was complete, c. 100. And memory was much better in that culture. It was an oral culture, where memory was cultivated from an early age. This has been documented time and again.
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And of course we find virtually all the Catholic distinctives present from the beginning (episcopal church government – bishops – , a literal Eucharist, baptismal regeneration, a priesthood, infused — not imputed — justification, apostolic succession, adherence to Tradition as well as Scripture, penance, prayers for the dead, the papacy, the communion of saints, Mary as the ever-virgin, Mother of God, and New Eve, a visible Church with councils {Jerusalem Council of Acts 15}, etc.). Doctrines develop, but they are present in kernel or fuller form from the beginning, whereas dozens of Protestant distinctives are nowhere to be found until more than 1400 years later (which scarcely suggests that they were apostolic).
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Three Protestant Bible Dictionaries agree with my basic contentions with regard to the nature of biblical tradition:
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Apostolic teaching – which included facts about Christ, their theological importance, and their ethical implications for Christian living – was described as tradition (1 Cor 11:2; 2 Thess 2:15). It had divine sanction (1 Cor 11:23; Gal 1:11-16) . . . Jesus rejected tradition, but only in the sense of human accretion lacking divine sanction (Mk 7:3-9). (J. D. Douglas, editor, The New International Dictionary of the Christian Church, Grand Rapids, Michigan: Zondervan, revised edition, 1978, pp. 981-982)
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Appeals to authoritative Church tradition are found already in the earliest New Testament writings, the letters of Paul. Occasionally explicit reference is made to some material as traditional, including a particular set of ethical instructions (2 Thess 3:6), a set eucharistic formula (1 Cor 11:23-6), and a standardized recital of the death, burial, resurrection, and postresurrection appearances of Christ (1 Cor 15:3-7). Also recorded are more generalized references to Church traditions (1 Cor 11:2; Phil 4:9; 2 Thess 2:15; cf. Rom 6:17; Gal 1:9). . .. . The New Testament writings were first valued not as inspired Scripture but as deposits of apostolic tradition in fixed written form, to be interpreted authoritatively by the bishops and according to the rule of faith . . .
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Jesus did not totally reject the oral tradition . . . His own interpretation of the Torah in the Sermon on the Mount employs the scribal principle of ‘building a fence about the Torah’ – not simply by restricting external behavior more than the written law, but by pointing out that sinful interior urgings in themselves violate what the Torah seeks to control (Matt 5:21-2,27-8, 38-9). (Allen C. Myers, editor, Eerdmans Bible Dictionary, Grand Rapids, Michigan: Eerdmans, 1987; [English revision of Bijbelse Encyclopedie, edited by W.H. Gispen, Kampen, Netherlands: J.H. Kok, revised edition, 1975], translated by Raymond C. Togtman & Ralph W. Vunderink, pp. 1014-1015)
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Christian tradition in the New Testament therefore consists of the following three elements: a) the facts of Christ (1 Cor 11:23; 15:3; Lk 1:2 . . . ); b) the theological interpretation of those facts; see, e.g., the whole argument of 1 Cor 15; c) the manner of life which flows from them (1 Cor 16:2; 2 Thess 2:15; 3:6-7). In Jude 3 the ‘faith . . . once for all delivered’ (RSV) covers all three elements (cf. Rom 6:17). Christ was made known by the apostolic testimony to Him; the apostles therefore claimed that their tradition was to be received as authoritative (1 Cor 15:2; 2 Thess 2:15; 3:6). . . This combination of eyewitness testimony and Spirit-guided witness produced a ‘tradition’ that was a true and valid complement to the Old Testament Scriptures. So 1 Tim 5:18 and 2 Pet 3:16 place apostolic tradition alongside Scripture and describe it as such. (J. D. Douglas, editor, The New Bible Dictionary, Grand Rapids, Michigan: Eerdmans, 1962, p. 1291)
The context of these verses deals a crippling blow—not a support—to official Catholic Tradition. However, Stephen Ray conveniently ignores the context of these verses as he must.
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The above arguments show how ludicrous these contentions are, I think (especially the gratuitous “must”). If anyone is “ignoring context” (and proper exegesis), Pastor Bayack is. I’ve given at least ten times more biblical support for our view than he has given for his (if he wishes to counter-reply, then great). Even Protestant biblical scholars and commentators would not accept such a simplistic understanding of New Testament tradition, as just seen.
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They are far more in accord with my viewpoint than Pastor Bayack’s (i.e., concerning what tradition is, not, of course, with regard to its particulars, or our claims that it contains what are now “Catholic disctinctives”). But here we are discussing tradition generally, or generically. What it includes in all its particulars is another entire discussion. That requires biblical examination of each and every doctrine, and I do just that on my website, which is called Biblical Evidence for Catholicism.

VII. Zapping Church History and Bashing the Church Fathers
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Just about anything can be proven when Scripture is taken out of context and the old saying, “a text without a context is a pretext” applies very well to him. In fact, he is quite adept at ignoring the context of Scripture if an allegorical interpretation supports his point. When I challenged him about using extensive allegory, especially in reference to the Old Testament, he stated, “I have often used Old Testament passages in the same ‘patristic’ manner as the earliest Church Fathers” (11) and “If you mean by allegory that I interpret them patristically, I plead guilty” (11).
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I agree totally about the supreme importance of context. But I would contend that Pastor Bayack, too, is guilty of neglecting this (whether or not Steve Ray is). I’ve now spent many hours refuting his false claims, utilizing tons of Scripture in the process (and I have enjoyed it immensely, because I always love studying Holy Scripture). Let the reader judge who is being more “biblical” in their analyses and exegesis. General hermeneutical principles and the place of allegory are beyond my purview here. I refer Pastor Bayack and readers to my paper: Dialogue: Clearness (Perspicuity) of Scripture and the Formal Sufficiency of Scripture (with Carmen Bryant). That dialogue deals with hermeneutical issues (including the history of same).
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In this paper, one learns, for example, that the early heretics tended to believe in a hyper-literal interpretation of Scripture, to the exclusion of allegory, whereas the orthodox Catholic Chalcedonian trinitarians accepted allegory (though not denying a primacy of the literal interpretation). So this is yet another instance of Protestantism being analogous to the heresies in their theological method (just as in the case of sola Scriptura and in the tendency to reject apostolic succession and the crucial, indispensable function of history in Christianity).
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The Gnostics, for example, rejected the Incarnation (the Apostle John was already refuting them in John 1), so it was entirely predictable and logically consistent that they would reject Church history as well, since the Church is the embodiment of Christ and the continuation of His mission in time and space. Christianity is not a disembodied, ethereal religion. It takes in the physical world as well. In the Christian view, the body is good, sensory pleasure is good, and hence the Church and history are good, and sacraments bring together spiritual graces and physical means, just as God took on flesh and became man, thus raising human flesh and mankind to previously unknown sublime levels. This is the incarnational principle.
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Statements like this reveal another crutch that Stephen Ray must lean upon to support Catholic Tradition—the Church Fathers.
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Indeed, as any legitimate Christian system should, because Christianity is intrinsically historical. Many Protestants seem to take this dim view of Church history and the Fathers. But Christianity is historical at its very core, as Judaism before it was. It was confirmed by eyewitness testimony of miracles, and Jesus’ Resurrection; very much historical criteria of proof, credibility, and plausibility.
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What Pastor Bayack calls a “crutch” is absolutely essential to self-consistent Christianity, even in terms of getting the Bible itself into the good pastor’s hands. Without the Catholic Church and Tradition and Fathers we would not have the Bible we have today. Canonization (just like the authorship of the Bible) was a very human process. But the history of the Church is a continuation of Jesus’ Incarnation. God took on flesh and became man. After our Lord’s Ascension, the Body of Christ, the Church, continued the physical presence of Jesus on the earth, in a sense. God works with men; men are physical; the Church they belong to is physical in many ways (this gets into sacramentalism as well: another huge discussion, but see the many biblical proofs in my paper: Heartfelt Sacramentalism (Not Mere Charms).
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In my review I stated that he quotes them as though they were infallible and that nowhere in his book does he consider that they may contract Scripture to which the humble Mr. Ray responds, “With all due respect the above comment is nothing but stupid. Come on Mr. Bayack, of course some of the Fathers contradict Scripture some of the time” (16).
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I assumed that you believed as much, Mr. Ray, but that is not what I said, if indeed you truly read my review. I said that you treat them as though they are infallible, not that you believe them to be infallible. He continues, “Do I have to attach a disclaimer for each citation?” (11). No. But where do you give any disclaimer, even one, that the Church Fathers were prone to error? Judging by the way you so authoritatively referenced them, how is a simple mind like mine to conclude otherwise? 
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It is common knowledge (with the slightest study on the subject) that in Catholic, and Orthodox theology, the Fathers are not regarded as individually infallible. Even popes are infallible only when they authoritatively proclaim, not always. So I must agree that even the question and the distinction without a difference drawn betrays yet another lamentable instance of Protestant ignorance, which is never surprising to those of us who deal in Protestant misconceptions all the time, in the course of defending the Catholic Church. And, admittedly, it can get irritating and frustrating to us, so that we may not always respond as charitably as we should.
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I’m not sure if Steve makes a precise statement in either of his two books of exactly how patristic authority is regarded in the Catholic Church. I couldn’t locate one myself. If he doesn’t, I think it was an unfortunate omission, given the multitude of patristic citations in each book. He has, however, written an article which I have had on my Church Fathers page for some time (and it is available on his website): Unanimous Consent of the Fathers. In this paper (included in the Catholic Dictionary of Apologetics and Evangelism — Ignatius Press) Steve states (emphasis added):
The Unanimous Consent of the Fathers (unanimem consensum Patrum) refers to the morally unanimous teaching of the Church Fathers on certain doctrines as revealed by God and interpretations of Scripture as received by the universal Church. The individual Fathers are not personally infallible, and a discrepancy by a few patristic witnesses does not harm the collective patristic testimony. The word “unanimous” comes from two Latin words: únus, one + animus, mind. “Consent” in Latin means agreement, accord, and harmony; being of the same mind or opinion. Where the Fathers speak in harmony, with one mind overall – not necessarily each and every one agreeing on every detail but by consensus and general agreement – we have “unanimous consent.” The teachings of the Fathers provide us with an authentic witness to the apostolic tradition. . . .
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A fine definition of Unanimous Consent, based on the Church Councils, is provided in the Maryknoll Catholic Dictionary,
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When the Fathers of the Church are morally unanimous in their teaching that a certain doctrine is a part of revelation, or is received by the universal Church, or that the opposite of a doctrine is heretical, then their united testimony is a certain criterion of divine tradition. As the Fathers are not personally infallible, the counter-testimony of one or two would not be destructive of the value of the collective testimony; so a moral unanimity only is required. (Wilkes-Barre, Penn.: Dimension Books, 1965, pg. 153)

VIII. Paul, Pagans, Prophets, Plato, Patristics, and Protestant Pastors
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Anyone who yokes his interpretation of Scripture together with the Church Fathers is often building on a perforated foundation—its appearance belies its strength. If Stephen Ray truly believes the Church Fathers to be fallible, then he should examine them as the Bereans did Paul in Acts 17:11 (cf. 1 Thessalonians 5:21 also). If the great apostle’s teaching was subject to examination, then that of lesser men should be as well. What most people fail to realize about the Church Fathers is that many of them often embraced a syncretistic approach seeking to harmonize Greek
philosophy and Biblical truth.
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“It was argued by some Christian apologists that the best doctrines of philosophy were due to the inworking in the world of the same Divine Word who had become incarnate in Jesus Christ. ‘The teachings of Plato,’ says Justin Martyr, ‘are not alien to those of Christ, though not in all respects similar. . . . For all the writers (of antiquity) were able to have a dim vision of realities by means of the indwelling seed of the implanted Word.” (Edwin Hatch, The Influences of Greek Ideas and Usages Upon the Christian Church [London: Williams and Norgate, 1895; repr., Peabody, Ma.: Hendrickson, 1995], 126-27, parenthesis in original)
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The intent was to make Christianity appeal to the Greek mind. However, this approach is fatally flawed. Worldly wisdom is “earthly, natural, [and] demonic” as we read in James 3:15 and is directly at odds with divine wisdom as we read in 1 Corinthians 2. The carnal mind will never believe due to intellectual reasoning alone. He will not accept the things of God until the Lord opens his eyes and draws him to believe (cf. John 6:44). Thus the oil-and-water mix pursued by many of the Fathers often yielded hazardous interpretations of the Word of God. Poison plus water
equals poison.
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This is another huge subject, and Pastor Bayack is now revealing the common, most regrettable and unbiblical evangelical Protestant distrust of the mind and reason, and of selective truths which may have been (and often were) present in the nobler pagan minds such as that of Socrates, Aristotle and Plato. He wishes to contend that this “syncretistic” attitude is foreign to Christianity and the New Testament. It is not. Elsewhere I have written:
We observe the Apostle Paul “incorporating paganism” in a sense when he dialogues with the Greek intellectuals and philosophers on Mars Hill in Athens (Acts 17). He compliments their religiosity (17:22), and comments on a pagan “altar with the inscription, ‘To an unknown god.’ ” (17:23). He then goes on to preach that this “unknown god” is indeed Yahweh, the God of the OT and of the Jews (17:23-24). Then he expands upon the understanding of the true God as opposed to “shrines made by human hands” (17:24-25), and God as Sovereign and Sustaining Creator (17:26-28). In doing so he cites two pagan poets and/or philosophers: Epimenides of Crete (whom he also cites in Titus 1:12) and Aratus of Cilicia (17:28) and expands upon their understanding as well (17:29).
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This is basically the same thing that the Church does with regard to pagan feasts and customs: it takes whatever is not sinful and Christianizes it. To me, this is great practical wisdom and a profound understanding of human nature. The frequent Protestant assumption that this is a wholesale adoption of paganism per se, and an evil and diabolical mixture of idolatry and paganism with Christianity is way off the mark . . . After all, the Apostle Paul is clearly guilty of mixing paganism and Christianity also. :-) Remember, it was Paul who stated:
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To the weak I became weak, so that I might win the weak. I have become all things to all people, that I might by all means save some. (1 Cor 9:22; NRSV; read the context of 9:19-21)
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In my opinion, the Church’s practice concerning Easter, Christmas, All Souls Day, All Saints Day, etc. is a straightforward application of Paul’s own “evangelistic strategy,” if you will. That puts all this in quite a different light, when it is backed up explicitly from Scripture. The early Church merely followed Paul’s lead. Furthermore, skeptics of Christianity trace the Trinity itself to Babylonian three-headed gods and suchlike, and the Resurrection of Christ to Mithraism or other pagan religious beliefs, but that doesn’t stop Protestants from believing in the Triune God or the Resurrection. So this whole critique eventually backfires on those who give it. (Is Catholicism Half-Pagan?)
Let us continue. Stephen Ray is not finished in his support of Catholic Tradition. In his section “Questions for ‘Bible Christians’” on page 26, he draws upon Jude 9, 14-15 as support for oral Tradition being authoritative and even treating it as God’s Word. Is it?
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Jude 9 discusses the dispute between the archangel Michael and the devil over the body of Moses. While this event is not found in the Old Testament, it is found in the apocryphal book The Assumption of Moses. Verses 14-15 discuss a prophecy of Enoch which is also not found in the Old Testament but is found in the apocryphal Book of Enoch. Do these references support oral Tradition as being authoritative or that the Catholic Apocrypha is also part of the inspired Word of God?
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No, they do not. God at times allows His writers to quote truths from non-inspired sources to make a point. For example, Paul quotes ancient poets three times in inspired writings. In Acts 17:28 he quotes Aratus’ poem Phaenomena when he says, “Even some of your own poets have said, ‘For we also are His offspring.’” Does this mean that Phaenomena is inspired or that the oral tradition which transmitted it is the Word of God?
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Is the same true of Menander and Epimenides because he quotes them in 1 Corinthians 15:33 and Titus 1:12 respectively? Man in his pursuit of knowledge occasionally intersects God’s truth. After all, even a stopped clock is right twice a day.
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But didn’t Pastor Bayack just say, above: “Worldly wisdom is ‘earthly, natural, [and] demonic’ as we read in James 3:15 and is directly at odds with divine wisdom as we read in 1 Corinthians 2.” ? Is this not contradictory to his present (true) point that pagans and other non-Christians may possess snippets of truth, even “God’s truth”? Perhaps he can return and inform us as to which of his two contradictory opinions he prefers. No one is saying that to merely quote some source makes it inspired per se, but it would seem to imply a considerable authority and trustworthiness of the source. Catholic apologist David Palm elaborates:
Jude relates an altercation between Michael and Satan:
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When the archangel Michael, contending with the devil, disputed about the body of Moses, he did not presume to pronounce a reviling judgment upon him, but said, ‘The Lord rebuke you.’ (Jude 9).
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As H. Willmering says in A Catholic Commentary on Holy Scripture,
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This incident is not mentioned in Scripture, but may have been a Jewish oral tradition, which is well known to the readers of this epistle.
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Some versions of the story circulating in ancient Judaism depict Satan trying to intervene as Michael buries the body. Several of the Church Fathers know of another version in which Moses’ body is assumed into heaven after his death. Jude draws on this oral Tradition to highlight the incredible arrogance of the heretics he opposes; even Michael the archangel did not take it on himself to rebuke Satan, and yet these men have no scruples in reviling celestial beings.This text provides another example of a New Testament author tapping oral Tradition to expound Christian doctrine—in this case an issue of behavior. In addition, this text relates well to a Catholic dogma that troubles many non-Catholics—the bodily Assumption of Mary. There is no explicit biblical evidence for Mary’s Assumption (although see Rev. 12:1-6), but Jude not only provides us with a third biblical example of the bodily assumption of one of God’s special servants (see also Gen. 5:24, 2 Kgs. 2:11), he shows that oral Tradition can be the ground on which belief in such a dogma may be based. (“Oral Tradition in the New Testament”)
In my extensive and very enjoyable dialogue with a Baptist (who henceforth was never to be heard from again): Sola Scriptura, the Old Testament, and Ancient Jewish Practice, I drew the following conclusions from my numerous analogical and biblical arguments, which have some relevance to our present discussion. My friend was contending that the Old Testament Jews believed in sola Scriptura (i.e., their views on formal principles of authority were more consistent with Protestantism). I denied this (with many arguments), and maintained that they were much more similar to the Catholic “three-legged stool” of Scripture, Church, and Tradition.
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The same is true of events and quotations that God uses from apocryphal sources even if these sources were not inspired. (By the way, if Catholicism appeals to these verses in Jude as support for apocryphal inspiration, then why is neither The Book of Enoch nor The Assumption of Moses found in the Catholic Apocrypha?
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Because it’s an argument from analogy and methodology, not exact equivalence. The important and relevant point here is that there are many thinly-veiled references to the so-called “apocryphal” books which are in the Catholic OT canon in the New Testament, yet Protestants never think that suggests canonicity of those books; all the while they state over and over that when any of the 39 Old Testament books accepted by Protestants are cited, that this suggests their canonicity. Here are three examples of clear (though not technically “direct”) references to the “Apocrypha” in the New Testament:
Revelation 1:4 Grace to you . . . from the seven spirits who are before his throne. (cf. 3:1; 4:5; 5:6)
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Revelation 8:3-4 And another angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God. (cf. 5:8)
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Tobit 12:15 I am Raphael, one of the seven holy angels who present the prayers of the saints and enter into the presence of the glory of the Holy One.
St. Paul, in 1 Corinthians 15:29, seems to have 2 Maccabees 12:44 in mind. This saying of Paul is one of the most difficult in the New Testament for Protestants to interpret, given their theology:
1 Corinthians 15:29 Otherwise, what do people mean by being baptized on behalf of the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized on their behalf?
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2 Maccabees 12:44 For if he were not expecting that those who had fallen would rise again, it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead.
This passage of St. Paul shows that it was the custom of the early Church to watch, pray and fast for the souls of the deceased. In Scripture, to be baptized is often a metaphor for affliction or (in the Catholic understanding) penance (for example, Matthew 3:11, Mark 10:38-39, Luke 3:16, 12:50). Since those in heaven have no need of prayer, and those in hell can’t benefit from it, these practices, sanctioned by St. Paul, must be directed towards those in purgatory. Otherwise, prayers and penances for the dead make no sense, and this seems to be largely what Paul is trying to bring out. The “penance interpretation” is contextually supported by the next three verses, where St. Paul speaks of Why am I in peril every hour? . . . I die every day, and so forth.
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And Hebrews 11:35 mirrors the thought of 2 Maccabees 7:29:
Hebrews 11:35 Women received their dead by resurrection. Some were tortured, refusing to accept release, that they might rise again to a better life.
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2 Maccabees 7:29 Do not fear this butcher, but prove worthy of your brothers. Accept death, so that in God’s mercy I may get you back again with your brothers. [a mother speaking to her son: see 7:25-26]
How is it that these non-inspired books could support Apocryphal inspiration?)
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The Catholic argument here is not so much to support the Deuterocanonical books, as it is to support the normative nature of an authoritative, non-canonical oral Tradition. We say that the “Apocrypha” is Scripture because it was declared so at the Councils of Hippo and Carthage (393, 397), along with the other books which Protestants accept. Our friends have the inconsistent principle, once again. The seven books they dispute were arbitrarily ditched in the 16th century because they contained clear proofs of doctrines (such as purgatory) which Luther rejected. But who gave Luther the authority to determine by himself what constituted Sacred Scripture? Who anointed him as God’s Holy Prophet or some sort of “pseudo-Moses”?
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Furthermore, in verse 14 Jude writes “Enoch . . . prophesied”. By contrast, notice how Matthew referred to the prophecy of Micah 5:2 in Matthew 2:5, “For so it has been written by the prophet.” Enoch’s quote is inspired while Micah’s writings are inspired. Never is it said, “It is written” concerning The Book of Enoch nor any other apocryphal writing. Jude references Enoch’s prophecy, not the book. Neither the document nor its word-of-mouth transmission have the same authority as Scripture.
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See the above arguments and links. This paper is long enough. One can’t conquer the world in a single paper. Now we are engaged in extensive arguments about the biblical canon . . .
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And neither does Roman Catholic Tradition.
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I agree. The Catholic Church is the Guardian and Custodian of the Bible and Tradition. It is not equal to it, nor does it have any right or power to change God’s Tradition, the Gospel, or the Bible. Protestants, on the other hand, thought nothing of overturning doctrines which had been continuously believed and passed-down for 1500 years. This is indeed the usurpation of Scripture and harmonious Apostolic Tradition, so I suggest that Pastor Bayack examine his own Protestant house (all the hundreds of rooms in it).

IX. Pastor Bayack’s Word vs. the Word of God, Calvin, & Luther (Gospel and Baptism)
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ii. The Word of God
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Stephen Ray’s ability to handle the Word of God has also been weighed in the balance and found wanting. He is as obligated to follow Rome’s handling of Scripture as he is her Tradition, even if it means throwing himself into a vortex of error.
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But what does the Protestant do in this regard? Well, Joe Q. Protestant is an atomistic individual who (when all’s said and done) follows his own theological inclination wherever it may lead. There are plenty of “vortex’s of error” in Protestant ranks. There must be, because the mere existence of contradiction and competing theologies and Christianities logically requires that someone is in error. At least individual Catholics such as Steve Ray and myself consciously acknowledge and submit to an entity and Tradition far greater than one frail and fallible human being. At least Catholics acknowledge that the Holy Spirit has been talking to a lot of holy men and women for 2000 years (not just “me”), and that they may have learned a few things, a little bit in all that time that we can spiritually benefit from.
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G. K. Chesterton stated that “tradition is the democracy of the dead.” Protestantism, on the other hand, is more like the “dictatorship of the individual.” The wheel (theoretically, following the principles of private judgment and sola Scriptura) could be re-invented with every Protestant. Every Protestant is his own pope, and assumes more authority for himself than any pope ever dreamt of in his wildest dreams.
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Not surprisingly, Mr. Ray views this as a badge of honor. “Ignorant people like to claim Catholicism contradicts the Bible, but it was actually the great fidelity of the Catholic Church to Scripture and the teaching of Jesus and the Apostles that eventually caused me to convert to the Catholic Church” (7). “One of the nice things about being a Catholic is that there are no longer any verses that don’t fit or make sense, such as 1 Peter 3:31, John 20:23, Colossians 1:24, John 3:5, etc.” (11). He holds to the same line that I was taught in fourth-grade Parochial school, namely, that
since Roman Catholicism is supposedly an infallible Church, she possesses an infallible interpretation of Scripture.
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If this is so, then where is the official, infallible set of commentaries whereby I might look up the meaning of any and every verse? Surely a simple mind like mine would benefit from that. Yet none exists. Wouldn’t such a set be the invincible fortress which no heresy could assault? Why does Rome not give us the authoritative, once-for-all, verse-by-verse exposition of the Word of God which would forever silence her critics?
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Because the Church is concerned with guarding the apostolic deposit in its entirety, not requiring its members to believe a certain way about particular Bible verses. The Church declares infallible doctrines, not infallible interpretations of individual verses. Another case of the Catholic not being able to win, where its more vehement critics are concerned . . . We observe Pastor Bayack’s impassioned complaint and mocking tone above. Yet we can be sure that if there did exist a Catholic document giving a binding, dogmatic opinion on every verse in the entire Bible, that this would be considered the most tyrannical, oppressive, dictatorial phenomenon ever seen in world history.
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We should not hope for such a commentary anytime soon. And if Stephen Ray’s capability with the Bible reflects that of his Church, it is understandable why such a commentary will never exist. For example, he states, “Paul taught the churches many things . . . [including] how to ordain priests” (10). I am want to find such a passage! If Stephen Ray had any proficiency in Greek, he would know that the word for “priest” is the word hiereus (or archiereus for “chief/ruling priest”) and nowhere does Paul ever ordain a hiereus or teach a church to do the same. He did appoint elders in some churches (e.g. Acts 14:23) but the Greek word for “elder” is presbuteros from which we get our word “presbytery”. Never is the New Testament church office of presbuteros ever equated with hiereus.
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I will defer to a link (Visible, Hierarchical, Apostolic Church), as I am rapidly tiring (after now more than 15 hours) of answering this paper, and its multitude of errors:
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Yet Mr. Ray’s exegetical skid does not stop there. When I made some remarks about the issue of baptism, he stated, “Paul’s converts were all baptized immediately upon belief in Christ (e.g. Acts 16:31) as he was himself (Acts 9:17-18)” (12).
Apparently he has never read Acts 13:12, 13:48, 17:4, 17:12, and 17:34 which make no mention of baptism accompanying belief among Paul’s converts. No doubt these believers were eventually baptized but contrary to Stephen Ray there is nothing in the text to suggest that it immediately followed belief. Several other passages also show us that not all converts were immediately baptized such as Acts 4:4, 6:7, 9:35, 9:42, and 11:21.
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But these are not the only blunders he makes regarding baptism. As I mentioned earlier he devotes over ninety pages of his book to supposedly prove baptismal regeneration, pages which include attempts to rebut Evangelical arguments opposing it. I pointed out that nowhere does he address 1 Corinthians 1:17 where Paul says, “For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel.” To this he responded, “I really don’t see what the above verse has to do with anything” (12).
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I am amazed at this statement! Surely Mr. Ray would realize that simple minds like mine would latch on to verses like this. And if my argument is so easy to refute, then doing so in his book would only strengthen his. Yet he ignores this verse, as he must, since it is one of the most potent against his position. If baptism was necessary for salvation, then Paul erred grievously by not baptizing everyone immediately upon belief. Why would he leave his listeners in eternal peril if they merely believed but had to wait for someone else to come along and finish the evangelistic job? What surgeon would shut down the operating room half way through a heart transplant?
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In 1 Corinthians 1:17 where Paul says, “For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel” the Greek word for “but” is not the simple conjunction de but the adversative particle alla which is the plural of allos, meaning “another”. Anyone with even basic competence with Greek knows that alla denotes a sharp contrast. Paul’s distinction between baptism and the gospel could not be clearer.
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Again, since this is another major discussion, I will defer to my many papers on the topic on my Baptism and Sacramentalism page.
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Speaking now of the gospel, Stephen Ray continues his Biblical and theological ambiguity as he writes, “I am thankful to be part of the Church that has consistently taught the true Gospel from the very beginning. She has gone neither to the right nor to the left but stayed the course so that two thousand years later the Gospel is still proclaimed with truth and accuracy” (18).
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What is the gospel according to Rome, Mr. Ray? Interestingly enough, for your boast about the Catholic Church preserving the true gospel, you give no definition of it. Is it, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you shall be saved” as Paul told the Philippians jailer in Acts 16:31? Is it the same definition that Paul gives in 1 Corinthians 15:3-4, which I remind you again contains no mention of baptism or communion, the two sacraments your book so frantically tries to prove are essential to saving faith?
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The core and essence of the gospel is the death, burial, and Resurrection of Jesus Christ on our behalf, as our Redeemer and Savior. This is a biblical definition, as explicated in the papers:
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Many anti-Catholic Protestants, however (strangely enough), wish to go beyond the Bible’s own definition of “gospel” and define it in terms of the peculiar and exclusivistic Protestant sense of sola fide and imputed, extrinsic, external justification and instant assurance of salvation. In so doing, they deny that Catholicism possesses a true gospel.
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It cannot be this simple as Rome’s gospel is much more complex. It goes something like this, “Believe in the Lord Jesus and be baptized and receive communion, together with receiving as many of the other five sacraments as possible (in addition to praying to Mary and the saints for extra intercession), in the hope that you might go to heaven after you spend an indefinite period of time in that half-way hell of Purgatory.”
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Well yes, as shown above, since Tradition and Gospel seem to be synonymous in Paul’s mind, and since he seems to include all of Christian teaching in the category of tradition, and since Jesus commanded His disciples to teach all that He taught them, there is a sense in which “gospel” and “tradition” are all-encompassing, taking in the whole of Christianity. Words are often used in more than one sense in Scripture, as Pastor Bayack well knows.
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Now I am not passing judgment on individuals nor am I making a blanket statement that all Catholics are going to hell. “The Father . . . has given all judgment to the Son” as Jesus said in John 5:22 and we all do well to leave it with Him. However, we are to “Be diligent to present yourself approved to God as a workman who does not need to be ashamed, handling accurately the word of truth” (2 Timothy 2:15) and nowhere is this more crucial than the gospel.
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Indeed. Then how can so many Protestants get the biblical definition so wrong, and in so doing, read one billion Catholics out of the Christian faith because they supposedly lack the simple gospel?
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These irreconcilable differences in understanding the gospel mean that Stephen Ray and I cannot be on the same team (as he well knows) in spite of his statement, “It is sad when I have to lock horns with someone who claims the name of my Savior Jesus Christ—one with whom we should lock arms in love to take a united stand for Christ in the midst of a pagan culture” (1, italics in original).  
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So Martin Luther, because he believed in baptismal regeneration, is on a different team than Pastor Bayack (a non-Christian team?) and all the Protestants who take a different view of baptism? After all, Luther (always the great super-hero and Protestant champion whenever he disagrees with the Catholic Church) wrote:
Little children . . . are free in every way, secure and saved solely through the glory of their baptism . . . Through the prayer of the believing church which presents it, . . . the infant is changed, cleansed, and renewed by inpoured faith. Nor should I doubt that even a godless adult could be changed, in any of the sacraments, if the same church prayed for and presented him, as we read of the paralytic in the Gospel, who was healed through the faith of others (Mark 2:3-12). I should be ready to admit that in this sense the sacraments of the New Law are efficacious in conferring grace, not only to those who do not, but even to those who do most obstinately present an obstacle. (The Babylonian Captivity of the Church, 1520, from the translation of A. T. W. Steinhauser, Philadelphia: Fortress Press, revised edition, 1970, p. 197)
Likewise, in his Large Catechism (1529), Luther stated:
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    Expressed in the simplest form, the power, the effect, the benefit, the fruit and the purpose of baptism is to save. No one is baptized that he may become a prince, but, as the words declare [of Mark 16:16], that he may be saved. But to be saved, we know very well, is to be delivered from sin, death, and Satan, and to enter Christ’s kingdom and live forever with him . . . Through the Word, baptism receives the power to become the washing of regeneration, as St. Paul calls it in Titus 3:5 . . . Faith clings to the water and believes it to be baptism which effects pure salvation and life . . .When sin and conscience oppress us . . . you may say: It is a fact that I am baptized, but, being baptized, I have the promise that I shall be saved and obtain eternal life for both soul and body . . . Hence, no greater jewel can adorn our body or soul than baptism; for through it perfect holiness and salvation become accessible to us . . . (Edition by Augsburg Publishing House [Minneapolis], 1935, sections 223-224, 230, pp. 162, 165)
Even John Calvin, though he denied baptismal regeneration, believed in a host of extraordinary effects from baptism. He certainly wouldn’t wish to minimize it at all (or the larger concept of sacramentalism itself), like Pastor Bayack does. He also accepted the validity of Catholic baptism, so that all he describes below applies to all baptized Catholics. Calvin stated in his Institutes of the Christian Religion, IV.15.16 (McNeill / Battles edition, Philadelphia: Westminster Press, 1960), that:
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    Such today are our Catabaptists, who deny that we have been duly baptized because we were baptized by impious and idolatrous men under the papal government . . . baptism is accordingly not of man but of God, no matter who administers it. Ignorant or even contemptuous as those who baptized us were of God and all piety, they did not baptize us into the fellowship of either their ignorance or sacrilege, but into faith in Jesus Christ, because it was not their own name but God’s that they invoked, and they baptized us into no other name. But if it was the baptism of God, it surely had, enclosed in itself, the promise of forgiveness of sins, mortification of the flesh, spiritual vivification, and participation in Christ.
Calvin’s biographer Francois Wendel writes (probably referring to this very passage):
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The Anabaptists repudiated the baptism that they had received at the hands of Roman Catholic priests, on the ground that the latter were unworthy and unable to confer true baptism. Calvin replies that what matters is that we should have been baptized in Christ, and that notwithstanding any errors or unworthiness in him who administers baptism the divine promise is fulfilled towards us. (Calvin: The Origins and Development of His Religious Thought, translated by Philip Mairet, New York: Harper & Row, 1963 [originally 1950 in French], pp. 322-323)
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So (according to John Calvin) all Catholics are indeed brothers in Christ, and Christians. He states, e.g., in Institutes IV.15. 1:
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    Baptism is the sign of initiation by which we are received into the society of the church, in order that, engrafted in Christ, we may be reckoned among God’s children.
And in IV.15. 3:
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    But we must realize that at whatever time we are baptized, we are once for all washed and purged for our whole life . . . we may always be sure and confident of the forgiveness of sins . . . For Christ’s purity has been offered us in it [baptism]; his purity ever flourishes; it is defiled by no spots, but buries and cleanses away all our defilements.
To nail this point down (like Luther and his 95 Theses), I again summarize what Calvin writes about the effects of all Catholic baptisms, as well as Protestant ones:
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    1. “forgiveness of sins”2. “mortification of the flesh”3. “spiritual vivification”4. “participation in Christ”5. “received into the society of the church”6. “engrafted in Christ”7. “reckoned among God’s children”8. “washed and purged for our whole life”9. “sure and confident of the forgiveness of sins”10.”Christ’s purity has been offered us in it [baptism]”11.”his purity ever flourishes; it is defiled by no spots, but buries and cleanses away all our defilements”
Therefore, utilizing the reasons of Luther and Calvin themselves, I assert that Pastor Bayack and all Protestants (whether temperamentally anti-Catholic or no) ought to accept Catholics as Christians and brothers in Christ, and to not place them in an inherently inferior spiritual category. Argue points of theology, yes, but exclude from the Body of Christ? May it never be . . .
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Did Paul “lock arms” with the Judaizers who infested the churches of Galatia? Think of all the beliefs they shared. Both were Monotheists. Both believed the same Old Testament Scriptures. Both had a similar morality and were repulsed by the rank paganism around them. Both esteemed the Ten Commandments and the rest of the Law. They had many important, fundamental beliefs in common. But there was one difference in belief which would never be bridged—the nature of justification.
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Paul embraced justification on the basis of faith alone but the Judaizers also believed that keeping the Law was necessary. Imagine how they could have appealed to Paul: “Paul, our differences aren’t so great. Look at all that we have in common. We really just disagree in this one area. You believe in justification by faith alone, and we believe in faith plus keeping the Law and the traditions practiced by our fathers and their
successors and are still proclaimed nearly fifteen hundred years later with truth and accuracy. Let’s pull together that we might fight as one.”
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But how did Paul react to the Judaizers? “We did not yield in subjection to them for even an hour, so that the truth of the gospel might remain with you” (Galatians 2:5). Regardless of whatever beliefs they may have had in common, their differences on this one vital issue would keep them forever apart.
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How, then, can both Calvin and Luther accept Catholic baptism? Furthermore, we know Luther allowed those who still believed in Transubstantiation to join his party in 1543, only three years before he died (Letter to the Evangelicals at Venice, June 13, 1543). Writing about the Elevation of the Host in 1544, Luther stated:
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“If Christ is truly present in the Bread, why should He not be treated with the utmost respect and even be adored?” Joachim, a friend, added: “We saw how Luther bowed low at the Elevation with great devotion and reverently worshiped Christ.” (Mathesius, Table Talk, Leipzig, 1903, p. 341)
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In 1545 Luther described the Eucharist as the “adorable Sacrament,” which caused Calvin to accuse him of “raising up an idol in God’s temple,” and of being “half-papist.” Hadn’t the Founder of Protestantism, restorer of the “gospel,” co-originator (with Calvin) of sola fide and sola Scriptura read about Paul and the Judaizers?! Why didn’t he know what Pastor Bayack knows?!
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And what are we simple-minded folk to believe, with such confusion and counter-claims swirling all around us, courtesy of our ever-competing, ever-dividing, mutually-anathematizing Protestant friends? I think now — at any rate — I can sympathize with Pastor Bayack’s plea, as a simple-minded pilgrim; a somewhat tortured and tormented soul, trying so hard to comprehend all this. It took 15 hours, but I am here, and we now have that in common, if little else.
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So it is forevermore with those who embrace the gospel of faith alone and those who embrace faith plus works of any kind.
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The biblical doctrine is grace alone through faith, with inevitable good works resulting, as part and parcel of the nature of saving faith. See my web page: Salvation and Justification for many biblical proofs. Another very long discussion . . .

X. Parting Shots From Pastor Bayack
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Conclusion
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My opinion about Crossing the Tiber remains the same—it is a masterpiece of tangled, selective scholarship which will only widen the path of many on the already broad road to destruction. It’s that simple.
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So Steve Ray is in effect leading people to hell as a deluded “Pied Piper” himself. What a monstrous and unfounded thing to say. I think Pastor Bayack should think very seriously about his own words, in light of our Lord Jesus’ warning:
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Matthew 5:22 But I say to you that every one who is angry with his brother shall be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother shall be liable to the council, and whoever says ‘You fool!’ shall be liable to the hell of fire.
I need not say anything more. Mr. Ray, though, is sure to say plenty more and I concede the last word to him, as I must. When it comes to who can shout the loudest, I’m no match for him. He is sure to have the last word that he might triumph over every critic. Yet Scripture will have the ultimate last word and will triumph over every error that threatens the gospel of grace by which we are saved through faith alone in Jesus Christ.
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Note that Pastor Bayack conveniently bows out of the dialogue with a gratuitous parting shot (as opposed to a legitimate biblical rebuke); most unseemly, coming from a man of the cloth. This means I won’t — sadly and disappointingly — expect him to respond to my paper (an outcome not altogether unexpected, though). If he does I will be delighted and pleasantly surprised, but I won’t hold my breath. The good pastor says that Scripture will have the last word. Indeed it will, and it has — I think — in this paper. I haven’t “shouted” to the best of my knowledge, but I have offered an awful lot of Scripture. I apologize upfront for any excess of language or undue judgment or rashness.
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If my esteemed Protestant brother truly respects that Scripture which he expounds upon every week from his pulpit (to much good effect, no doubt – and I mean that sincerely), then surely he will return and interact with this massive presentation of it, and not disappear like so many others I have dialogued with, under the pretense and empty excuse that his Catholic opponents can only special plead, eisegete, make personal attacks, and offer no cogent biblical arguments. I will be anxiously awaiting Pastor Bayack’s decision.
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Praise God for sending His Son to fully pay the price for my sin. Praise God because salvation is a totally free gift which we merely receive. And praise God for a gospel so simple that a mind like mine can understand it.
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Amen! Would that Pastor Bayack could understand that Steve Ray and I both wholeheartedly concur with him in this particular statement, and so does the Catholic Church. What he intended to be a stark dividing line between us instead turns out to be a refreshing area of agreement (if only he knew that).
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May Stephen Ray “become foolish that he may become wise” (1 Corinthians 3:18).
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He is an extraordinary fool for Christ, I can assure anyone, having known him for 17 years and having observed his many labors for the gospel and the kingdom, both as a Protestant and as a Catholic. No doubt Pastor Bayack accomplishes much good as well in his ministry. We hope and pray that he can remove the present slanders and misunderstandings of the Catholic Church from his thoughts and writings, so as to foster more unity and respect among fellow Christians.
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And no, I have not as of yet observed Pastor Bayack being convinced by the least jot or tittle of any of Steve’s arguments, so I don’t need to modify an earlier statement I made tentatively, in which I noted a certain (and possibly hypocritical) double standard in the pastor’s numerous stern personal judgments of Steve Ray, and highly doubted whether Rev. Bayack would do any better with regard to the sort of behavior for which he indignantly excoriated Steve. My suspicions in that regard have now been wholly confirmed and unchallenged, having reached the end of Pastor Bayack’s critique.

James 3:1, 6, 9-10 Let not many of you become teachers, my brethren, for you know that we who teach shall be judged with a greater strictness . . .

    . . . And the tongue is a fire . . . With it we bless the Lord and Father, and with it we curse men, who are made in the likeness of God. From the same mouth come blessing and cursing. My brethren, this ought not to be so.

XI. Postscript: Why Pastor Bayack Decided to End This Debate 
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The following is my response: “Rev. Bayack Bows Out of Debate With Steve Ray & I, But Why?” (22 August 2000) to the posted letter of Pastor Bayack (21 August 2000) on Steve Ray’s Catholic Convert Message Board. As his letter was public, so is mine. His response follows. His words will again be in blue:
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Dave Armstrong informed me of his response and I appreciate him doing so.
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You’re welcome. I will send this counter-reply directly to you also.
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Just as I mentioned in my second article, I have neither the time nor need to address every point that Stephen Ray made concerning my initial review.
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Then why did you write a second lengthy reply, if time was an issue? You could have easily bowed out then, for ostensibly the same reasons you are giving now. I would hope that such dialogues are not based on a “need” to engage in them, but rather, on truth (on both sides). The latter is my motivation, pure and simple.
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You accused Steve of leading people down the path of destruction. As a pastor and one who is so opposed to Catholicism as a false, counterfeit version of Christianity, isn’t it incumbent upon you to refute its errors, so as to save multitudes from hell? Here is your opportunity to appear on my website, to reveal truth to all those caught in the clutches of darkness, and this is the reason you give to bow out of the discussion now?
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The same is true with Mr. Armstrong’s response.
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I figured there would be no answer. I’m well-used to that routine. It seems that anti-Catholic Protestants love to “dialogue” with Catholics who are ignorant of their faith, because that serves their purposes. But as soon as one offers a vigorous challenge back, then suddenly time becomes an issue, and even “family,” as we see below.
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You brought up a number of new issues in the portion of your reply I dealt with, including the perpetual virginity of Mary. Don’t you think it is a matter of intellectual honesty that you now deal with the counter-arguments I gave (including many citations from Luther and Calvin)? Aren’t you even interested in doing so, apart from whether or not you have the time?
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I conceded the last word to them and plan no further website writings regarding Crossing the Tiber.
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Why are you doing this, since you started the exchange in the first place? Why do you not want to follow through with the discussion until some real progress towards the attainment of truth is made in either a concession on either side, or at least an increased understanding? Isn’t that one of the purposes of such discussion and the seeking of truth?
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Or were you simply seeking a “mutual monologue” scenario and a chance to preach to the choir on the “Proclaiming the Gospel” website? Having gotten to some real “meat” and legitimate, worthwhile issues, now it is all over? Then send someone else along who does have time to defend your propositions against a lowly Catholic critique. Surely any first-year Protestant seminary student could run rings around a Catholic, right?
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This happens so often that it reminds me of Jehovah’s Witnesses who grace all our doorsteps (invariably in the middle of some pleasant or necessary activity). I have witnessed to hundreds of these people. They are very interested in discussion as long as they have a person willing to gullibly accept all that they say as gospel truth. But as soon as one raises a few objections, or mentions the contradictions of their past history (as I do, having studied them), then all of a sudden they start glancing at their watch and remember that they were supposed to be somewhere 10 minutes ago.
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Likewise, I cannot guarantee individual responses to those who seek to contact me.
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I understand that, and do it myself, but a dialogue that you started and promulgated on a public website is something else again, I think. I think that if you were truly confident of your position, that you would not stop the discussion once some hard questions are asked of you.
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Jesus Christ, the Man who had more to say than anyone else who ever lived, actually said very little in terms of recorded content. Truth does not require a voluminous defense. Error does.
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The history of opposition to all the heresies and errors in history would mitigate strongly against this ludicrous opinion. It was always the case that when the Church Fathers were challenged by the heretics, that they developed their thought and it became more complex. Arianism brought us the Nicaean formulations of the Trinity; likewise, Monophysitism brought us the Chalcedonian formulations, etc. Furthermore, if you were correct, why, then, are there scores of anti-Catholic websites and ministries and books, making quite a voluminous defense (and attack on us) indeed? Why do they not simply proclaim the simple gospel?
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While the differences between Stephen Ray/Dave Armstrong and me are of eternal significance, I nevertheless respect their time as family men and do not wish to detract further from their legitimate time demands. It was never my intention to provoke an endless debate over Crossing the Tiber.
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This illustrates the rampant contradictions in your stated reasons for ceasing debate. If these issues are of “eternal significance,” and since you started the dialogue by your critique, then should you not follow through and refute all our errors, for the sake of the lost?
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Why would you pass up the golden opportunity, e.g., of refuting me on my own website? I will upload each and every word you write, along with my response, just as I did with my reply. This is a mystery to me. It’s one thing to say Steve and I are simply fools who don’t deserve a reply in the first place, but having decided Steve was at least worthy of a reply, now you bow out, just as it gets truly interesting.
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As for family matters, this is a moot point as well. Obviously, Steve’s lovely wife Janet approves of what he does, and he spends many, many hours devoting himself to this sort of thing. True, he asked me to help, but that doesn’t get you off the hook. My beautiful wife Judy is equally willing to let me spend all the time I need for the sake of defending Christian truth and the Catholic Church: the one Jesus founded. This is a non-issue. No doubt your wife (I’m assuming you are married; I don’t know) is well-used to you having many duties in the course of your pastorate. If not, then you should have remained single, no?
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Even my very spiritually-aware 7- and 9-year-old sons would happily allow me to answer a man who tells lies about the Church they love to attend every Sunday. My 3-year-old recently came to understand that he ought to love God more than me. So if I told him that a man was attacking the Church that God set up for the purpose of helping us follow Jesus and get to heaven to be with Him eternally, even he would understand to some extent that this was important work.
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Again, I say that if time and respect for Steve’s family responsibilities (and now mine) were an issue, you should have never responded the second time. You speak in these very cordial and respectful terms now, but you weren’t very kind to Steve in your last response. Here (to refresh your memory) is how you described the reason for your bowing out, even before I entered into this thing:
My opinion about Crossing the Tiber remains the same—it is a masterpiece of tangled, selective scholarship which will only widen the path of many on the already broad road to destruction. It’s that simple. I need not say anything more. Mr. Ray, though, is sure to say plenty more and I concede the last word to him, as I must. When it comes to who can shout the loudest, I’m no match for him. He is sure to have the last word that he might triumph over every critic. Yet Scripture will have the ultimate last word and will triumph over every error that threatens the gospel of grace by which we are saved through faith alone in Jesus Christ.
How quickly opinions change! First, it was because Scripture is able to defend itself, with no need for anyone else to fight error, that you decided to stop the dialogue. Then it was out of respect for Steve Ray’s and my family (which is no issue of concern at all for us). But above we see what I believe is the real reason: more personal attacks against Steve Ray, which typified your entire letter. For those who haven’t seen your reply, this is the sort of rhetoric which appears in it:
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It is amazing how everyone (e.g. William Webster, James White, myself, etc.) who crosses him is an arrogant mental midget, his spiritual inferior and intellectual doormat. Mr. Ray deals with them only as one is forced to deal with a pesky gnat since he considers them to be about as potent and intelligent. Quite naturally he makes no concessions to me, simpleton that I am.
If you now regret such statements, then I hope you have the decency and honesty to say so. Meanwhile, I haven’t forgotten the type of language you used against Steve, and I’m sure he hasn’t. He doesn’t regard it as a matter of personal “woundedness” or sensitivity any more than I do. For both of us, it is a matter of Christian ethics, charity, and an unfortunate straying from the serious subjects to be discussed.
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I challenge you to find someone else to finish your own counter-reply to Steve for you, if you are unable or unwilling to do it (for whatever reason). We will not sit idly by as our Church and the Ancient Faith is attacked with falsehoods, half-truths, revisionist history, double standards, etc., peppered with all sorts of personal attacks on those of us who believe with all our heart, soul, strength, and mind that Catholicism is the fullness of apostolic Christianity and spiritual truth.
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But there is a big difference between Steve and I, and you. When we talk to our children about you, we will respect you as a sincere Christian, follower of Jesus, and brother in Christ. We won’t say that you are leading people to hell, or special pleading, etc., etc. At worst we would say that you hold to some erroneous views, yet that you still had much more in common with us than not.
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What would you tell your children about us, or Catholics in general? That is a major difference here. But also, that Steve and I will not run from an attack on those truths which we believe and hold dear. We will defend them as long as we have opportunity, or else concede the argument and change our own opinion (as we both did when we converted). Steve’s website is aptly named.
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You, however, will defend your views only until they are seriously counter-challenged from Scripture, history, and Tradition, at which point you will appeal to the Bible’s ability to withstand all error without human aid, and family and time considerations, even though you state outright that the issues involved are of “eternal significance.”
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I don’t mean to pile on you, personally. Part of my frustration and passion, no doubt, is due to seeing this same sort of pattern over and over again. I get tired of it, and so some of that shows. But I stand by what I say, and I will always defend any of my papers against all critiques, or else concede when my opinions have been overthrown in a debate.
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Since your words and this reply were both posted on a public bulletin board, I will add this to the end of my critique, along with any further comments you wish to make.
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May God bless you and your ministry,
Dave Armstrong
It must have taken you a couple of hours to draft this post. Perhaps not. At least it would have taken me that long and it is time that I simply do not have. You may be able to devote several hours per day to Catholic/Protestant polemics but I am not.
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In case you didn’t notice, Stephen Ray had his initial response to my book review posted for nearly two-and-a-half years before I posted my second article. Sure I was guilty of procrastination and indecision whether or not to respond, but once I got started with my response, it took me over two months to complete, not two hours. And to be perfectly honest, I haven’t even finished reading your response. I’ve only scanned it and don’t know when I will read it entirely, if ever. I don’t know what you do for a living but my main ministry is being the Pastor of a small church which requires more time than I can give. And as passionately as I feel about these issues, they remain a secondary ministry for me, at least for now. As I stated previously, should I make any changes to my articles, I will inform you and Stephen Ray.
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I am neither apologetic of my beliefs nor unable to defend them. However, I have found that no matter whatever exegesis I may offer, it is met with the most egregious eisegesis imaginable. If this is to be the nature of debate, then it is not worth the time of either of us. I must focus my time on those who are interested in truth.
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I express my appreciation to Stephen Ray for acknowledging the gracious nature of my e-mails to him, even though we are both very direct in our writings. His e-mails to me are typically the same. I wished that I could say the same about your post.
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And I am eternally grateful to men like James White, James McCarthy, Mike Gendron, et al., who are able to give their full-time efforts to the gospel of grace through faith alone. (How blessed to understand the precious truth of “you have been saved” [Gk. “sesasmenoi”, Ephesians 2:8].) It is an honor to be counted among them and to share in the insults they receive, of which there will be plenty.
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Praise God that He chose me from eternity past to be among His elect! Praise God for delivering me from self-righteousness! Praise God for the free gift of eternal life! Praise God that I have been justified by the work of Christ alone! Praise God that salvation is totally of faith and nothing of works! Praise God for the assurance that I will go to heaven when I die! “How blessed is the one whom Thou dost choose, and bring near to Thee, to dwell in thy courts.” (Psalm 65:4)
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Sola Fide, Sola Gratia, Sola Scriptura, Sola Christus,
Chris Bayack
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Nothing needs to be said in reply to this. I think it speaks for itself, and virtually affirms my stated opinions.

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(originally posted on 22 August 2000)

Photo credit: official portrait of Catholic apologist, author, and tour guide Stephen K. Ray, from his website [Wikimedia Commons / Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike 3.0 Unported license]

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2020-09-19T14:12:27-04:00

Chris Bayack (12 days older than I am) was pastor of the independent Copperfield Bible Church in Houston from 1994 to 2002. He graduated with an M. Div. from The Master’s Seminary. Pastor Bayack was raised as a Catholic and left the Church at age 17.

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Pastor Chris Bayack’s posted response is called “Book Review: Crossing the Tiber (+ Pt. II)” and is still available online at the Proclaiming the Gospel website.[original introduction] Steve has asked me if I could assist him with his reply to this critique, in which Pastor Bayack responded to his counter-reply. Pastor Bayack seems to me a worthy and able opponent, so I am happy to do so. Steve Ray is a good friend of mine (we go back to 1983, long before we both converted). I have worked with Steve in such projects before, most notably with regard to my paper: William Webster’s Misunderstanding of Development of Doctrine [2000]. Pastor Bayack’s words will be in blue.

TABLE OF CONTENTS
PART I

I. Opening Shots From Pastor Bayack

II. Church (and) Tradition and Sola Scriptura


III. Weak and Insubstantial Alleged Biblical “Proofs” for Sola Scriptura


IV. Tradition II


V. Recurring Ad Hominem Attacks and Charges of Special Pleading

PART II [Link]

VI. Back to New Testament Tradition (and a Rabbit Trail of “Absolute Assurance”)

VII. Zapping Church History and Bashing the Church Fathers


VIII. Paul, Pagans, Prophets, Plato, Patristics, and Protestant Pastors


IX. Pastor Bayack’s Word vs. the Word of God, Calvin, & Luther (Gospel and Baptism)


X. Parting Shots From Pastor Bayack


XI. Postscript: Why Pastor Bayack Decided to End This Debate

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I. Opening Shots from Pastor Bayack

Crossing the Tiber is Stephen Ray’s experience into Roman Catholicism and it is largely an experience in search of a text.
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I think this is a silly, groundless comment, which implies that Steve Ray puts experience above biblical text and reason. He most certainly does not (though I have personally known many Protestants who do just that), as anyone who reads his thoroughly-footnoted books or articles can readily observe. This is the familiar charge of special pleading, as if Catholics (and particularly converts — thus I am well-acquainted with it as well) couldn’t possibly have adequate reasons for their change of heart and mind; therefore they go out and find biblical texts which they think prove what they already espouse on irrational, experiential grounds.
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But this is itself a circular argument. Pastor Bayack simply assumes that the Bible couldn’t possibly support Catholicism, so he conveniently concludes that anyone who believes it does must be special pleading and rationalizing; engaging in eisegesis (i.e., reading into the Bible one’s own prior assumptions or theological systems).
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Furthermore, this charge could just as easily be levied against any number of Protestant sects, since they can’t manage to agree with each other (strange, if Scripture is so self-evidently clear, as they all claim). That might be due to poor scholarship or special pleading on their part as well (or any number of possible additional reasons). So in the end, charges like these become meaningless; both sides must present their biblical and historical arguments in favor of their own positions, which is precisely what both Steve and Pastor Chris have done. It isn’t necessary to second-guess motives and to charge that a person is in effect dishonest (as professional anti-Catholic James White has in fact asserted about Steve Ray — without grounds, of course; I have received the same unethical treatment from the man).
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Thus, Pastor Bayack, fresh from two sections detailing what he feels to be Steve’s ad hominem attacks, lobs one of his own in his very first sentence. Sure it may have been subtle, but Steve and I know full well what he is referring to, as experience vs. biblical grounding is a longstanding discussion within the evangelical community itself (particularly concerning charismatics). Steve (like myself) has always chosen the Bible as the standard of experience (not vice versa), both as an evangelical and as a Catholic. This is a non-issue.
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He must justify Catholic doctrine if he is to justify his conversion as evidenced by his own words, “Roman Catholic tradition does not contradict Scripture or frankly, I wouldn’t be a Roman Catholic” (7, italics in original),
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All adherents of a Christian view who attempt to defend it utilize Scripture in that regard. I don’t find that this is some sort of novel or objectionable practice. Such assertions don’t move the discussion along at all. They are merely showy rhetoric, and thus, unworthy of true dialogue. For someone might object in turn: “okay, then, for what reason do you think Steve Ray is eisegeting Scripture?” And then we get right back to the biblical arguments, which should have been the starting-point of discussion in the first place, as both parties reverence Holy Scripture and accept its inspiration and unquestioned authority.
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The Catholic can’t win, no matter what he says or does, in the eyes of an anti-Catholic. I have long experience of this myself. If he doesn’t cite Scripture to support his opinions (or change of heart, in the case of a convert), then it is said that Catholics hate the Scripture to such an extent (or are so ignorant of it) that they don’t even cite it as evidence for their side, etc., and that the person is obviously a pawn and slave of this hideous, anti-biblical and tyrannical system; the Beast, the Whore of Babylon, blah blah blah. Then it is maintained that the Catholic Church has always suppressed the Bible and vernacular translations, etc. (false charges also, as I document on my Bible and Tradition page).
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But if a Catholic holds to the infallibility of Scripture (as they should, since their Church teaches this), and believes that the Bible is entirely consistent with Catholic doctrine (as all Christians who value Scripture believe about their own views), then we hear this gratuitous and vapid charge of eisegesis and special pleading, because (when it comes right down to it), the anti-Catholic knows (and assumes that everyone else “knows”) that Scripture doesn’t support Catholicism!
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But what does that prove, anyway? Exactly nothing. It is a form of the “your dad’s uglier than mine” tactic of schoolchildren. It is obvious that the discussion boils down to competing interpretations of Scripture. Protestants ought to respect such a biblical and hermeneutic discussion, given that they are perpetually arguing amongst themselves over that very thing (and sinfully splitting into further factions when they can’t agree). So why pick on Catholics who hold to a different interpretation of various biblical passages, as if they are especially prone to eisegesis and an alleged “tortured hermeneutic”?
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I suppose Pastor Bayack could reply that he does in fact try to show the faults of Steve’s exegesis subsequently in his paper. Fair enough. But it is still unnecessary to take the pot shot right at the beginning of his arguments. It cheapens the debate and takes away much of the enjoyment and chance to learn and understand (for both parties).
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and to do so he is often forced to employ a tortured hermeneutic. He must also depend on the other leg of authority—Church Tradition—for the same reason, regardless of how much it may contradict Scripture. I will deal briefly with each.
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Whether it is “tortured” will be determined as the discussion proceeds below. I would submit that the standard Protestant views involve much more biblical difficulty and contradiction, and I will support that in no uncertain terms as we go along. As for Catholics depending on Church Tradition; well, of course we do; it is part of our system (and the Bible’s outlook — so we would argue — far from contradicting it). But we are consistent in our own views, whereas Protestants supposedly eschew all “tradition” and stick to the Bible Alone, all the while accepting (consciously or not) all sorts of strictly man-made traditions handed down to them by their fathers Luther or Calvin or the Anabaptist Founders.
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Scripture Alone and Faith Alone themselves fall into this category. There is nothing more “merely traditional” or arbitrary or less apostolic than beliefs which spring into existence 1500 years after Christ, whose exponents have the chutzpah to describe as “apostolic” and “biblical” viewpoints and doctrines, even though it can’t be documented that anyone of note believed them for those intervening 1500 years. This forces many Protestants to assert the quasi-Mormon notion of a very early and widespread – almost completely victorious – apostasy or “falling away” or “radical corruption” of Christendom, until such time as Herr Luther broke through the darkness and brought the glorious gospel back again.

II. Church (and) Tradition and Sola Scriptura
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i. Church Tradition
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Stephen Ray appears to be as infallible as his Church as he hardly concedes even the least point to those who challenge him.
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Oh, so Pastor Bayack does concede points — minor or no — to the Catholic (or to Steve’s) position? I will be watching closely to see whether he does or not. If not, then this is a clear example of what I call “log-in-the-eye disease.” If he does, I will come back and concede this point myself, and change this particular answer. So if this section doesn’t read as it does now, the reader will know that I stand corrected, and that Pastor Bayack’s charge was not immediately hypocritical.
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It is amazing how everyone (e.g. William Webster, James White, myself, etc.) who crosses him is an arrogant mental midget, his spiritual inferior and intellectual doormat.
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I think this is a grossly unfair and inaccurate characterization of Steve’s remarks. Perhaps he “crossed the line” of ad hominem-type comments a time or two (as virtually all of us do in the heat of substantive discussion, Pastor Bayack included). But to this extent? I think not. This is a sweeping judgment of Steve’s inner attitudes and opinions which is absolutely unwarranted. Pastor Bayack greatly minimizes the rhetorical effect of his own criticism against personal attacks by making statements such as these.
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James White (since he was mentioned) has recently accused Steve Ray of deliberate misrepresentation (not merely inaccuracy or botched facts), with regard to a certain famous statement of St. Augustine’s. That is a personal attack if there ever was one – getting right to motives and honesty and overall character. I haven’t seen Steve doing that at all (and if he did I myself would rebuke him for it). At worst he is perhaps excessively sarcastic and harsh at times. That, too, can be a fine line for all of us. There is a biblical form of ethical sarcasm, which both Jesus and Paul utilized. I think William Webster is much more diplomatic and cordial (he was with me, though he never answered my paper against his, cited above), but in any event, I vigorously object to this portrayal.
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Mr. Ray deals with them only as one is forced to deal with a pesky gnat since he considers them to be about as potent and intelligent. Quite naturally he makes no concessions to me, simpleton that I am.
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This is a clear example of the sort of unconstructive, unethical sarcasm and judgment which Pastor Bayack purports to be rebuking Steve Ray for. As such, it requires no further comment. But I am still looking for our pastor friend’s own “concessions,” since he makes such an issue of this. Or is there some sort of double standard from the get-go, which Steve is subjected to, but not Pastor Bayack?
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Nevertheless, I seek to contend for the truth which God has revealed exclusively in His Word for everyone who has ears to hear. How liberating for me to hear the clear voice of God through His Word alone! How blessed I am to understand and embrace the precious doctrine of Sola Scriptura. Mr. Ray, of course, has no choice but to reject this. According to him, “Sola Scriptura is never taught or even alluded to in the Bible itself; in fact, it itself is unbiblical” (5, italics in original).
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Again, this remains to be proven. We deny it. I understand the propriety of summary statements, but if they are found wanting due to the dearth of evidences justifying them, they ought to be removed. As for “Mr. Ray’s . . . choice,” well, it is a very biblical choice, since the Bible in fact does not teach sola Scriptura. Pastor Bayack claims that it does indirectly, as indeed is the case with the Holy Trinity, but I think his case is exceedingly weak, as I will attempt to demonstrate in due course.
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Sola Scriptura is unbiblical? Sola Scriptura is no more unbiblical than the Trinity. Where does the Bible teach that God is a triune Being?
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Well, we agree that the biblical argument for the Trinity is largely an indirect, deductive one. That is clear in the very structure of my extensive paper on the subject (largely written in 1982, as an evangelical): Holy Trinity: Hundreds of Biblical Proofs (RSV edition) [1982; rev. 2012]. At least it is stated in a cursory way in Matthew 28:19 (not a disputed passage in terms of manuscripts, as far as I know):

(NRSV) Go, therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.

But when it comes to sola Scriptura, no similarly descriptive verse can be found – not even anywhere close. I think the equivalent (if it in fact existed) would read something like:

Do not take heed of any written or oral traditions, as sufficient for the purposes of doctrine or action, since the written word of God in Holy Scripture is your ultimate and final authority, above any church or tradition.

No such verse even remotely approaching this can be found (and many directly contradicting it, can be cited). Why would such a direct statement not be in the Bible, if this principle is so supremely important? Verses simply reiterating the trustworthiness and goodness of Scripture are not enough to prove this case. They are only compelling in a logically circular way: they harmonize with a sola Scriptura outlook, but they do not establish it or provide any evidence in favor of it, for they are just as harmonious with the Catholic view also. Instead, Scripture informs us (RSV; emphases added):
1 Corinthians 11:2 I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the  traditions even as I have delivered them to you.
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2 Thessalonians 2:15 . . . stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth, or by letter.
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2 Thessalonians 3:6 . . . keep away from any brother who is living in idleness and not in accord with the tradition  that you received from us.
Tradition in the Bible may be either written or oral. It implies that the writer (in the above instances St. Paul) is not expressing his own peculiar viewpoints, but is delivering a message received from someone else (see, for example, 1 Corinthians 11:23). The importance of the tradition does not rest in its form but in its content.
1 Thessalonians 2:13 . . . when you received the word of God which you heard  from us, you accepted it not as the word of men, but as what it really is, the word of God . . .
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1 Timothy 3:15 . . . the church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth.
Other Bible translations render bulwark alternately as groundfoundation, or support. In his two letters to Timothy, St. Paul makes some fascinating remarks about the importance of oral tradition:
2 Timothy 1:13-14 Follow the pattern of the sound words which you have heard  from me . . . guard the truth which has been entrusted to you by the Holy Spirit who dwells within us.
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2 Timothy 2:2 And what you have heard  from me before many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also.
St. Paul says that Timothy is not only to receive and follow the pattern of his oral teaching, in addition to his written instruction, but to teach others the same. The Catholic Church seeks to do this with regard to the entire “Deposit of faith” (or, the apostles’ teaching – Acts 2:42), in accordance with St. Paul.
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Furthermore, the concepts of traditiongospel, and word of God (as well as other terms) are essentially synonymous. All are predominantly oral, and all are referred to as being delivered and received:
1 Corinthians 11:2 . . . maintain the traditions . . . even as I have delivered them to you.
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2 Thessalonians 2:15  . . . hold to the traditions . . . taught . . . by word of mouth or by letter.
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2 Thessalonians 3:6 . . . the tradition that you received from us.
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1 Corinthians 15:1 . . . the gospel, which you received . . .
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Galatians 1:9 . . . the gospel . . . which you received.
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1 Thessalonians 2:9  . . . we preached to you the gospel of God.
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Acts 8:14 . . . Samaria had received the word of God . . .
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1 Thessalonians 2:13 . . . you received the word of God, which you heard from us, . . .
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2 Peter 2:21 . . . the holy commandment delivered to them.
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Jude 3 . . . the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints.
In St. Paul’s two letters to the Thessalonians alone we see that three of the above terms are used interchangeably. Clearly then, tradition is not a dirty word in the Bible, particularly for St. Paul. If, on the other hand, one wants to maintain that it is, then gospel and word of God are also bad words! Thus, the commonly-asserted dichotomy between the gospel and tradition, or between the Bible and tradition is unbiblical itself and must be discarded by the truly biblically-minded person as (quite ironically) a corrupt tradition of men.
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All of this seems to be very difficult to get across to our esteemed Protestant brethren (I’ve engaged in many online debates about these alleged proof texts, and they never go more than one round). Protestants are so entrenched in their sola Scriptura presupposition (like a fish in water) that they oftentimes cannot — literally – grasp any critique of it. Yet it is logically elementary. The Bible simply does not pit itself against either Church or Apostolic Tradition.
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All are clearly of a piece, as unarguably seen above. Everyone must try to step outside their own premises momentarily, if they are to hope to understand an opposition viewpoint. That is just as true of Catholics as it is of Protestants or any other view, religious or otherwise. It may be painful and difficult, but this is the necessary requirement of logical, constructive discourse, including biblical discussion.
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(Even the Catholic Jerusalem Bible is forced to admit that the expanded version of 1 John 5:7 is “not in any of the early Greek MSS, or any of the early translations, or in the best MSS of the [Latin] Vulg. itself” and is “probably a gloss that has crept into the text” [The Jerusalem Bible, s.v. 1 John 5:7 notes].) It is taught all throughout the Bible even though we don’t find the Trinitarian definition in one isolated verse. We understand the doctrine of the Trinity based on the deductive teaching of Scripture as a whole.
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I agree with this (and Catholic Church authority in the Councils was what finalized the Trinity for all Christians henceforth, just as was the case with the canon of Scripture), but Matthew 28:19 is at least as explicit in a trinitarian sense as 1 John 5:7, so the textual argument is neither here nor there, for the purposes of this discussion. We deny that sola Scriptura is taught even indirectly, analogously to the Trinity, as I will demonstrate (and as I already have in about 25 papers and dialogues on this topic on my Bible and Tradition page).

III. Weak and Insubstantial Alleged Biblical “Proofs” for Sola Scriptura
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So it is with Sola Scriptura. God has promised, “The grass withers, the flower fades, but the word of our God stands forever” (Isaiah 40:8).
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Indeed it does, but this passage does not say that it stands alone, in alleged dichotomy against Church and Apostolic Tradition. That is the hidden assumption which makes Protestants think such verses are compelling for their viewpoint. They are not. I could state that “the Washington Monument stands forever.” Would that mean that there are no other monuments or edifices? I could say that “the [United States] Constitution stands forever [as an American legal document].” Would that therefore mean that there would be no Congress to enact new laws in accordance with it, or President to preside over the executive branch of government, or a Supreme Court to interpret whether such laws are harmonious with the Constitution? Of course not.
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Likewise, Scripture does not rule out a Church and Tradition, by which it is interpreted as well. That’s why the Church Fathers always appealed not solely to Holy Scripture, but to the history of doctrine and apostolic succession, which for them was the clincher and coup de grace, in arguments against the heretics. Groups such as the Arians, on the other hand, believed in Scripture Alone, precisely because they couldn’t trace their late-arriving doctrines back past Arius (d.c. 336). So if there is an analogy here it is as follows:
Arians ——–> Protestants
Fathers ——-> Catholic Church
Reasoning such as this (his own, in fact, having previously written a book about the Arians) was what led John Henry Cardinal Newman to accept the Catholic Church as the Church established by Christ, because its formal, authoritative principle had never changed, whereas Protestantism involved a radical, a-historical change of principle, which he deemed a “corruption” rather than a legitimate development. And reading his book Essay on the Development of Christian Doctrine was what led me (and many, many others) to the Catholic Church as well.
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Jesus said, “Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words shall not pass away” (Matthew 24:35).
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This is clearly fallacious in terms of sola Scriptura, because Jesus’ words are not confined to Scripture, according to that same Scripture, and — I would say — common sense itself. Jesus was not a “talking Bible machine” (verses: RSV):
John 20:30 Now Jesus did many other signs in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book.John 21:25 But there are also many other things which Jesus did; were every one of them to be written, I suppose that the world itself could not contain the books that would be written.
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Acts 1:2-3 . . . the apostles . . . To them he presented himself alive after his passion by many proofs, appearing to them during forty days, and speaking of the kingdom of God. (see also Luke 24:15-16, 25-27)
Paul writes to Timothy, “All Scripture is inspired by God” (2 Timothy 3:16).
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Again, there is no disagreement from us that Scripture is inspired. That is a non sequitur in Catholic-Protestant discussions (except where theologically liberal parties are concerned, on both sides). The official Catholic record in upholding that truth is far better than the Protestant one, I dare say. It was liberal Protestantism which gave us the legacy of Higher Criticism and scholars mercilessly tearing down the Bible (now even to the extent of asserting that it sanctions sodomy, abortion, etc.). This verse proves nothing whatsoever in terms of sola Scriptura, as I have noted in my book, A Biblical Defense of Catholism (verses: RSV here and throughout in my response unless noted otherwise):
2 Timothy 3:16-17 All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.

This is the most often-used supposed proof text for sola Scriptura –– yet a strong argument can be put forth that it teaches no such thing. John Henry Cardinal Newman (1801-1890), the brilliant English convert to Catholicism from Anglicanism, shows the fallacy of such reasoning:

It is quite evident that this passage furnishes no argument whatever that the sacred Scripture, without Tradition, is the sole rule of faith; for although Sacred Scripture is profitable for these ends, still it is not said to be sufficient. The Apostle requires the aid of Tradition (2 Thessalonians 2:15). Moreover, the Apostle here refers to the Scriptures which Timothy was taught in his infancy. Now, a good part of the New Testament was not written in his boyhood: some of the Catholic Epistles were not written even when St. Paul wrote this, and none of the books of the New Testament were then placed on the canon of the Scripture books. He refers, then, to the Scriptures of the Old Testament, and if the argument from this passage proved anything, it would prove too much, viz., that the Scriptures of the New  Testament were not necessary for a rule of faith. It is hardy necessary to remark that this passage furnishes no proof of the inspiration of the several books of Sacred Scripture, even of those admitted to be such . . . For we are not told . . . what the Books or portions of inspired Scripture are. (“Essay on Inspiration in its Relation to Revelation,” London: 1884, Essay 1, section 29. Emphasis in original. In Newman, On the Inspiration of Scripture, edited by J. Derek Holmes and Robert Murray, Washington, D.C., Corpus Books, 1967, p. 131)

In addition to these logical and historical arguments, one can also differ with the Protestant interpretation of this passage on contextual, analogical, and exegetical grounds. In 2 Timothy alone (context), St. Paul makes reference to oral Tradition three times (1:13-14, 2:2, 3:14). In the latter instance, St. Paul says of the tradition, knowing from whom you learned it. 

The personal reference proves he is not talking about Scripture, but himself as the Tradition-bearer, so to speak. Elsewhere (exegesis), St. Paul frequently espouses oral Tradition (Romans 6:17, 1 Corinthians 11:2,23, 15:1-3, Galatians 1:9,12, Colossians 2:8, 1 Thessalonians 2:13, 2 Thessalonians 2:15, 3:6). The “exclusivist” or “dichotomous” form of reasoning employed by Protestant apologists here is fundamentally flawed. For example, to reason by analogy, let’s examine a very similar passage, Ephesians 4:11-15:

Ephesians 4:11-15 And his gifts were that some should be apostle, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers, for the equipment of the saints, for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ; so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the cunning of men, by their craftiness in deceitful wiles. Rather, speaking the truth in love, we are able to grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ,

If the Greek artios (RSV, complete / KJV, perfect) proves the sole sufficiency of Scripture in 2 Timothy, then teleios (RSV, mature manhood / KJV, perfect) in Ephesians would likewise prove the sufficiency of pastorsteachers and so forth for the attainment of Christian perfection. Note that in Ephesians 4:11-15 the Christian believer is equippedbuilt up, brought into unity and mature manhoodknowledge  of Jesus, the fulness of Christ, and even preserved from doctrinal confusion by means of the teaching function of the Church. This is a far stronger statement of the perfecting of the saints than 2 Timothy 3:16-17, yet it doesn’t even mention Scripture.

Therefore, the Protestant interpretation of 2 Timothy 3:16-17 proves too much, since if all non-scriptural elements are excluded in 2 Timothy, then, by analogy, Scripture would logically have to be excluded in Ephesians. It is far more reasonable to synthesize the two passages in an inclusive, complementary fashion, by recognizing that the mere absence of one or more elements in one passage does not mean that they are nonexistent. Thus, the Church and Scripture are both equally necessary and important for teaching. This is precisely the Catholic view. Neither passage is intended in a exclusive sense.

These are but the tip of countless verses that support the unique nature of Scripture as God’s enduring and only authoritative revelation.
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These “countless” verses are of the sort that prove absolutely nothing with regard to sola Scriptura, as seen from the examples Pastor Bayack thought so compelling above. The reader may or may not be familiar with these “countless” verses, but I have seen a great many brought forth myself, and refuted them (with little difficulty, as they almost always involved the same elementary logical fallacy) when they were used to allegedly “bolster” the self-contradictory position of sola Scriptura. The Bible certainly is a unique revelation — again, no argument from us there — but it is not the only authority for the Christian.
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It guides the Church and Tradition, which in turn preserve it, but they are all harmonious, and do not contradict each other (as is plainly evident in reading Fathers such as St. Augustine or St. Irenaeus). Christian truth and authority is a three-legged stool; take any one leg away and it falls over. Apostolic Tradition is true and biblical precisely because it is protected from error by God just as Holy Scripture itself is. The Protestant believes, in faith (and quite rightly) that Scripture is inspired; God-breathed, and therefore preserved from error by God, even though he used fallible, sinful men to write it.
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The Catholic agrees, but also asserts and believes that God can protect His Church from error as well, even though he uses fallible, sinful men for that purpose also. And if sinful men such as David and Peter could write inspired Scripture: the very words of God, then it is utterly plausible that God could grant the gift of infallibility (far lesser in degree and kind than inspiration) to men in certain well-defined situations. The second scenario is easier to believe than the first. Yet somehow Protestants have no problem adhering to the first, while vehemently denying the second proposition as “impossible,” “implausible,” “unbiblical,” etc. But papal, conciliar, and ecclesiological infallibility is another discussion altogether. The reader can consult my Church and Papacy pages (or Steve Ray’s book Upon This Rock) for discussion on those closely related, yet distinct topics.

IV. Tradition II
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If Church Tradition supposedly shares the same authoritative attribute as Scripture then we should expect it to share other common attributes. Yet where does God ever say that Tradition stands forever or that it will not pass away or that it is God-breathed? How is it that Tradition can presumably possess one unique attribute with the Word of God and not the rest?
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In effect, it is presented as immutable (in the sense that all truth is immutable) since it is spoken of as delivered “once and for all” to the saints (Jude 3). Likewise, 2 + 2 = 4 stands forever, does it not? Or a = a, or the theory of gravity (as long as this present universe exists)? Every created soul, for that matter, “stands forever,” as they will never cease being. The preached gospel stood forever as truth before it was ever encapsulated in Scriptural form. As I have shown, “tradition,” “word of God,” and “gospel” are synonymous in Paul’s mind.
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It is foolish and unbiblical to even try to separate them. Yes, we have the magnificent, extraordinary Bible and it is written down, and uniquely inspired, and has been maintained in its textual purity (so we know from evidences like the Dead Sea Scrolls), yet its interpretation in a doctrinal sense is obviously an ongoing process, as indicated by verses such as John 16:13a: “When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all truth . . .”
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And Jesus has promised that His Church will always prevail, and will not defect from the truth (Matthew 16:18), and Paul has stated that it is the “pillar and bulwark of truth” (I Timothy 3:15). That ought to be sufficient to establish our contentions, but since Protestants can’t even agree as to what the Church is, let alone which variant amongst themselves (if any) can lay claim to being the Church, they must — of necessity — downplay the notion of the (visible) Church, because it only condemns their own lack of unity and true ecclesiastical authority.
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Therefore, they adopt Scripture Alone (for what other choice do they have, given their internal chaos?), and the unbiblical notion of a merely invisible church of the elect and regenerate. That might be fine and dandy if these were scriptural concepts to begin with, but since they are not, then Protestants — ironically — have adopted unbiblical man-made traditions as their guiding principles. The pathetically weak and groundless nature of their “proof texts” for sola Scriptura bears this out more than a thousand essays like this ever could.
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While God undoubtedly used oral tradition to initially disseminate truth, the nature of human frailty demanded that such truth inevitably be captured in a written, inspired form.
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We did need the written form, but we also need the authoritative interpreter, just as all written documents require. The self-evident “clearness” of Scripture is a myth. Nothing illustrates this better than the 24,000 + Protestant sects. That same “frailty” Pastor Bayack refers to is what necessitates a real, binding teaching authority. Yet Protestants still insist on proving this claim that the self-evidently “clear” Scripture can serve as this supposedly sufficient “authority.” I have engaged in many debates on this (important and crucial) sub-topic as well.
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Errant men cannot be trusted to indefinitely pass on inerrant truth via word-of-mouth.
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It was not strictly word-of-mouth because inspired, revelational Holy Scripture was there from the onset of Christianity (though its exact parameters were disputed for 350 years) as the Guide. All things worked together. The Fathers appealed to Scripture (just as all Protestants do) but also (and finally) to the apostolic Tradition (as Catholics do), since all the heretics appealed to Scripture too. The deciding factor was the history of Christian doctrine, since history and Tradition had always been a central element of both Judaism and Christianity (this was nothing new).
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But on the other hand, “errant” and sinful men certainly could pass on inerrant truth, if indeed that was God’s intention (He being all-powerful and Sovereign over His creation), just as sinful and errant men managed to write an inspired, inerrant Bible, as God’s “agents,” as it were. Protestants just don’t have enough faith that God can preserve anything beyond His Bible. When it comes to a collective and ongoing body of men (the Church), the average Protestant balks and in effect accepts the absurd notion that God couldn’t preserve and protect that, simply because sinful men are involved. Yet they accept that very premise (sinful men being involved) concerning the Bible. So the self-contradictions multiply . . .
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Respected Old Testament scholar Gleason Archer states this very well:
May not the inerrant truth of God be handed down from mouth to mouth through successive generations? Yes, indeed, it may be, and undoubtedly portions of the Bible were preserved in this way for a good many years before finding their authoritative, written form. But oral tradition is necessarily fluid in character and in constant danger of corruption because of the subjective factor—the uncertain memory of the custodian of that tradition. . . . While it was of course true that the words which Moses, the prophets, Jesus of Nazareth, and the apostles spoke were divinely authoritative from the moment they were uttered, yet there was no other way of accurately preserving them except by inscripturation (i.e., recording them in writing under the guidance of the Holy Spirit). (Gleason Archer, A Survey of Old Testament Introduction [Chicago: Moody Press, second edition, 1974], 21-22, parentheses in original)
God knew the obvious need to preserve His truth in a clear, objective, and unchanging manner and thus He gave us His written Word.
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But that is not at issue here; we agree with that. We simply deny that Scripture is exclusive of Church and Tradition, because it itself denies this, as shown above! The Bible needs to be interpreted. So the Catholic accepts in faith Catholic dogmatic pronouncements from popes and Councils. Now how is that essentially different from the role of Creeds and Confessions in Protestantism? The Calvinist, e.g., accepts the Westminster Confession as an extremely authoritative document, which possesses a practical infallibility, if not in a strict sense. Calvinists still refer to it (along with Calvin’s Institutes) in a magisterial. almost reverential fashion, and I don’t see them disputing it’s authority. Likewise with the Lutherans and the Augsburg Confession and Book of Concord, etc.
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Now, how is this intrinsically different in principle (or at least in practical outcome, at the very least, which is more what I am referring to) from the Catholic’s adherence to Trent and Vatican I and II? All Christians have their authoritative traditions and a lens through which they view Scripture. It is foolish to deny this. We are up-front about our first principles. Many Protestants, however, seem to want to play epistemological and hermeneutical games, as if no one else can see the evident logical fallacies and lack of biblical support involved in their so doing.
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As for oral tradition, and tradition generally, I must refer the reader to more of my papers. Each sub-topic here is a complete discussion in and of itself, and one can’t deal with all subjects in any one essay. Hence the beauty and utility of websites and links. Catholic answers (whatever one may think of them) are there to be had, only the click of a mouse away.
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However, this simple truth prompts another question altogether—if Roman Catholic Tradition is an infallible safeguard of God’s revelation, then why the need for the New Testament at all?
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This is absolutely classic in what it reveals about Pastor Bayack’s prior assumptions, since it presupposes in the first place a Protestant fallacious premise: viz., that Tradition and the Bible are inherently opposed to each other, so that if one exists, the other is unnecessary and disposable (one of many many Protestant false and unbiblical dichotomies). In other words, the Protestant axiomatically assumes the (false) premise that the Bible precludes Tradition. Therefore, they reason that in the opposite scenario of Tradition being present and authoritative, the Bible therefore necessarily becomes unnecessary.
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But that is no more true or biblical than its logical opposite. We crush this false dilemma by asserting that the Bible itself presupposes both Tradition and the written revelation (as well as the Church) as normative at all times, and not in any way, shape, or form opposed to each other at all. I believe that I have shown this above, in more than sufficient detail – allowing Holy Scripture to speak for itself. And it does so, in this instance, very loudly!
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It is now the burden of Pastor Bayack to stop his proverbial and fallacious, timeworn, garden-variety Protestant rhetoric and deal with the very Scripture he places in an exclusive position. Let him show how we have misinterpreted the Scripture’s teachings above. Let him render an alternative interpretation to every instance of the Bible mentioning “tradition.” It’s all biblical material, after all, and that is supposedly the “Protestant’s territory.” So I assume there is some answer (however insubstantial and insufficient in our eyes).
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My Protestant dialogical opponents have never stuck around long enough to give me their counter-replies to my arguments in this regard (and many others) — so often they seem to have more important things to do –; therefore, I have no choice but to retain my present views, as any honest inquirer after truth is bound to do. I can hardly adopt an alternate view if my opponents fail to offer me any answer to my proof texts, let alone an ostensibly superior interpretation, can I? Steve Ray (or any Catholic) can do no differently, as a matter of principle and intellectual honesty or duty. So we both anxiously await Pastor Bayack’s rebuttal of this argument.
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Oral tradition existed before the New Testament and if the Catholic Church is the repository of God’s truth as she boasts per 1 Timothy 3:15, then her Tradition should be sufficient to protect and communicate all future divine revelation.
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I’m not sure what this means, but at any rate, we believe that public revelation ceased with the apostolic age and the completion of the Bible. We claim that the Catholic Church is the Guardian and Custodian of the apostolic tradition, or apostle’s teaching (Acts 2:42), passed down ever since, through apostolic succession. The Church has no power to change this Tradition, only to teach it and to “oversee” its development (not evolution).
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Why not “Sola Traditio”?
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Because that is not a biblical doctrine (any more than sola Scriptura is), and we desire to follow the biblical teaching, and its apostolic interpretation, as passed down faithfully for now 1900 years; preserved most fully in the Catholic Church (and incompletely to various degrees elsewhere).
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The New Testament, therefore, would be redundant.
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Only for one accepting Pastor Bayack’s false premises, as just shown above. They are not our premises, so this is a non sequitur. His argument and attempt to trap us in the horns of a logical dilemma doesn’t succeed because (as far as I can see; with all due respect) he comprehends neither our view nor its thoroughly biblical basis in the first place. The first prerequisite in order to refute an opposing view is to understand it. Don Quixote is considered a tragi-comic figure in literature, since he engaged in similarly futile and foolish endeavors. But it was oral tradition that became redundant for the reasons Archer states above. Just as Jewish tradition could not sustain God’s initial revelation, neither could that of the early church sustain God’s later revelation.
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Apart from the biblical arguments I have already presented, I must refer the readers to the papers and links above, concerning oral tradition, particularly in this regard one which deals with the Jewish perspective on authority: Sola Scriptura, the Old Testament, and Ancient Jewish Practice [1999]. St. Paul did not indicate anywhere that either oral or written tradition were to cease, and – again – it was a simple-enough matter to underline if he had wished to emphasize such a teaching, supposedly so central and crucial for every Christian to understand, so as to avoid the “pitfalls” or Rome and “Romanism,” etc.
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The problems with Tradition do not end here. If Tradition is presumably of equal authority with Scripture, then whose do we accept? The Eastern Orthodox can supposedly make the argument for apostolic succession with the same credibility as Roman Catholicism, however, each does not fully agree with the other’s Tradition. Which is correct? Why must Catholic Tradition supplant that of the Orthodox? How can both make an equally “legitimate” claim to be authoritative and yet be contradictory?
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This is a fair enough question. Briefly, we accept the sacraments and ordination of Orthodoxy because it followed the same line of apostolic succession as the Western Church for the first 1000 years, then separated ecclesiologically (yet retained far more of the previous doctrines than the Protestants did when they split off). Therefore it can trace itself back to the common early Church heritage, just as feuding cousins can trace themselves back to the same grandparents, or great-grandparents, as the case may be (i.e., common ancestry). Catholics have immense respect for our Orthodox brethren. Many of them reciprocate; some (so-called “traditionalists” and more exclusivistic jurisdictions) do not.
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The difference is papal authority and the history in Rome of spotless orthodoxy through the centuries, over against all the heresies, which was not the case in the East, even before the split. Readers can peruse our arguments for the papacy if they so choose. But validity of apostolic succession through validly ordained priests and the presence of valid sacraments is a different question from who possesses the fullness of the apostolic deposit. Each side claims that they do, of course. I have plenty of dialogues with Orthodox and Catholic arguments on my Eastern Orthodoxy web page.
*
This is a brief support for Sola Scriptura and far more can be said in its defense and has been by those more capable than me.
*
Granted, it was a brief treatment, but in the course of my own apologetic endeavors I have dealt with all the biblical arguments that have been thrown my way – not ignoring a single one -, in many debates (see the links above), and I can testify that I have yet to see a single compelling biblical argument for sola Scriptura. Most were immediately and easily answerable, as they involved a simple logical fallacy or were part of a circular argument which was really no argument at all.
*
Perhaps that is my Catholic bias (I sincerely acknowledge that possibility because I think all people have biases and presuppositions: both “good” and “bad” ones), but it is my heartfelt and firm opinion nonetheless. So I am not overly impressed by this so-called “abundance” of biblical support for this position. And — as stated previously — there are many biblical arguments against sola Scriptura which (in my humble opinion) are far more compelling than the “proofs” set forth in favor of this strange, peculiarly Protestant and a-historical idea.

V. Recurring Ad Hominem Attacks and Charges of Special Pleading
*
Yet no amount of truth will persuade Stephen Ray. An infallible Church cannot repent and he will dutifully follow even if it means marching behind the Pied Piper. For example, when I stated that he never addressed the problem of Catholic Tradition contradicting Scripture he patently replied, “The Catholic Church does not contradict the Bible so there was nothing I needed to address” (7).
*
Here we go again with this subtle ad hominem implication that Steve Ray is special pleading and ignoring contrary evidence: sticking his head in the sand, whereas (again, by implication), Pastor Bayack is not (I still look in vain for any hint that Pastor Bayack is persuaded by any of Steve’s arguments). I was discussing with my wife as I took a break from writing this response how humorous it is for a Protestant to be lecturing a convert to Catholicism like Steve Ray or myself that we are so unwilling to change our minds! We are converts, for heaven’s sake! By definition, that means that we changed our mind in the most profound ways, dealing with many of the most heartfelt beliefs a person can have. And it was not easy, I assure everyone, and I’m sure Steve would agree.
*
So the very charge of some sort of profound closed-mindedness and reactionary resistance to change in our cases (wholly apart from the subject matter involved) is absolutely ludicrous. And I have gone on record many times saying I am fully willing to convert again, to Orthodoxy, or back to Protestantism, if the facts of history and the biblical evidences warrant it (I think both intellectual honesty and open-mindedness demand this). Yet I have been convinced over and over of the strength of our case in so many ways, as I attempt to defend it against all comers. This is the blessing of being an apologist — provided one is defending the true belief. The mountainous rock of truth can easily withstand all the pebbles of untruth flung against it.
*
It is fundamentally silly to make this charge, as if it couldn’t be asserted with equal vigor against the one making it (though I wouldn’t do so), since we all naturally believe strongly in our own Christian views, and think them to be the most biblical. This is par for the course. Why then, must Pastor Bayack single Steve Ray out, as a Catholic, and imply that he is special pleading (insinuating, I think, an intellectual dishonesty and disregard for the Bible)?
*
Again, I speculate (not assert) that it arises out of his prior anti-Catholicism, whereby it is so revolting and offensive to him spiritually and intellectually for a former committed Protestant to actually espouse Catholicism as the more biblical view, that he must somehow explain it in terms of psychology, experience, and some ulterior motive (“smells and bells,” a love of Gothic architecture, a mindless predisposition to submit oneself to arbitrary ecclesial authority in order to attain an ersatz, illusory “certainty,” etc.) which causes such a one to embrace such a “ludicrous” concept (anything but Scripture and reason, which were Steve’s real criteria).
*
Otherwise, the double standard and hypocrisy of the charge is so obvious that I don’t know how anyone could make it, but for their blinders and the “certainty” that they assume about their own position, thus making their charges ridiculous, as they espouse the same idea (a certainty of belief and unwillingness to change one’s mind) that they supposedly see and despise in their opponent.
*
Mr. Ray must state this even if it requires turning the Bible inside out.
*
Sigh. Is there no end to this silliness, obviously borne of anti-Catholic intolerance of non-Catholic views? At least Pastor Bayack makes his case against Mary’s perpetual virginity in some detail below, unlike his abridged, failed, and admittedly “brief” treatment of sola Scriptura. But we shall see that it, too, is profoundly flawed, even out of step with the very “Reformers” from whom all Protestants historically derive (whether they acknowledge this or not).

GO TO PART II
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(originally posted on 22 August 2000)

Photo credit: official portrait of Catholic apologist, author, and tour guide Stephen K. Ray, from his website [Wikimedia CommonsCreative Commons Attribution-Share Alike 3.0 Unported license]

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2020-06-06T12:56:17-04:00

Mike Frost is Antiochian Orthodox and has earned an MBA degree.  I first learned of him when my Facebook friend Roger Gaw Ang posted my article for National Catholic Register14 Proofs That St. Athanasius Was 100% Catholic (6-4-20) in a Facebook group called “Protestant, Orthodox and Catholic Debate” (7,560 members). Mike’s words will be in blue.

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And such a simplistic silly piece by a mediocre hack RC apologist. Take just “councils”. He doesn’t appear to even be aware of the big Semi-Arian councils of the late 350s and early 360s. Nicea was only an “ecumenical council” as it was later received. By future councils. But its core holding was still being argued over in councils. And its creed would be replaced in toto by that of Constantinople in 381 AD, after his death.

Why would I waste my time with such polemical mediocrity, Roger Gaw Ang? All you get from him and his ilk are the same old ideological slants. Terrible exegetics. Bad history. I doubt he even realizes that the first “pope” by title is Heraclas of Alexandria in 248 AD. Which is why Athanasius is Pope & Patriarch of Alexandria. He knew of no supreme or infallible bishop of Rome. ;)

His little piece isn’t serious systematic theology or serious history, so STOP pretending that he is some heavyweight, Roger Gaw Ang. He is a RC who advances his RC polemic and ideology. YAWN. Show us some first-rate historical and theological scholarship!

This is childish rhetoric: juvenile potshots that don’t interact with the material; they merely insult.

The article was simply a 1000-word summary piece that didn’t even contain my own words, except for the section titles and one sentence as a footnote. One can’t do everything in every paper. I write on many different levels and styles, depending on the audience and my intentions. I write many short pieces like this one, and also very long, in-depth articles and dialogues and debates.

There is not enough space for exhaustive research in 1000 words (which is 3 1/2 pages). Mr. Frost certainly he knows that. It would be like expecting the listing of the Ten Commandments to be in-depth moral theology. Apples and oranges . . .

If he is serious about debate, he would have to be willing to take on my material point-by-point, which is what serious debate is. My blog (online for 23 years now) has almost 3000 articles, and I now have 50 published books (21 of them by “official” publishers). He is free to challenge any of them.

But again it has to be point-by-point. I don’t play “Bible hopscotch” or the “101 topics at once” games. I engage in serious debate and dialogue. I deal point-by-point with opposing views and I expect the same courtesy in return.

But there has to be at least minimal mutual respect for a true dialogue or debate to take place and accomplish anything. Oftentimes people tone down a bit after the original polemical / insulting flourish.

Mr. Frost challenged me (with insults) in a public venue; now I have returned the favor (minus the personal insults; I only negatively characterized the nature of his polemics sent my way).

Any discussion of Athanasius and Councils must discuss these historical events: Council of Seleucia [359], Council of Ariminum [359], and Council of Constantinople [360].

Mr. Frost then linked articles concerning the views of St. Gregory Nazianzus and St. Cyril of Jerusalem on the canon of the Bible: which have nothing to do with the subject at hand. Then he posted one (thanks!) about St. Athanasius and the canon., and described my reflections on the same topic as “intellectual dishonesty.”

Mr. Frost then found my Literary Resume and attacked my credentials:

Please see his UNIMPRESSIVE CV: “Bachelor of Arts, Sociology (cum laude) from Wayne State University, Detroit, 1982″. And this: “(no formal training in theology)”. He is NOT a recognized expert in systematic theology or the history of Christian doctrine. Compare to say a [Jaroslav] Pelikan.

In other words, I have precisely as much formal theological education as the two men who are considered the greatest Protestant and Catholic apologists of the 20th century: C. S. Lewis and G. K. Chesterton (i.e., none whatsoever). Chesterton didn’t attain a college degree of any sort at all. He took a year or two of a smattering of courses, focusing on art classes. Lewis was a professor of literature. Peter Kreeft, arguably the greatest living Catholic apologist, also has no theological education that I’m aware of. He is a philosopher. The same was true of Malcolm Muggeridge (journalist like Chesterton) and Thomas Howard (English professor). There are many other examples: including the first historic Christian apologist, St. Justin Martyr, who had a philosophical background and was converted to Christianity by talking to an old man by the sea.

Mr. Frost has a degree in business. Looks like he has no more theological education than I do. He cites scholars and academics and experts in various fields; so do I. Same difference. I have never claimed to be a scholar (a quick search of “scholar” on my blog will quickly yield many examples of my explicitly denying that I am one). But it’s not required to do lay popular apologetics, which is an altogether different thing from academic work per se. This being the case, and seeing that Mr. Frost is as formally theologically educated as I am (informally, I would, no doubt, be far more educated than he), his attack is merely a subterfuge and variation of the genetic fallacy.

***

Here is the portion of my NCR article about St. Athanasius and the deuterocanon:

7. Deuterocanon (So-Called “Apocrypha”) Athanasius cites both Baruch and Susanna along with Isaiah, Psalms, and other books, making no distinction between them (Four Discourses Against the Arians, Discourse 1.12). He describes Wisdom 14:21 as “Scripture” (Against the Heathen, Part 1, sec. 11). He cites  Sirach along with several other protocanonical Scriptures (Life of Anthony, 28 and Apology Against the Arians, 66), and does the same with Tobit (Defense of Constantius, 17). He describes Judith as “Scripture” (Four Discourses Against the Arians, Discourse 2.35).

It was a condensed version of part of the much longer article of mine: “St. Athanasius Was a Catholic, Not a Proto-Protestant.” Here’s the similar section from that, which I posted to the discussion group:

Deuterocanon (So-Called “Apocrypha”)

St. Athanasius did seem to lower the status of the deuterocanonical books somewhat, but not to a sub-biblical level, as noted by my good friend Gary Michuta, in his excellent book, Why Catholic Bibles are Bigger (Port Huron, Michigan: Grotto Press, 2007, 110-112; bracketed footnote numbering my own):

Athanasius quotes both Baruch and Susanna right along passages from Isaiah, Psalms, Romans, and Hebrews; he makes no distinction or qualification between them [1]. Wisdom also is used as an authentic portion of sacred Scripture . . .:

But of these and such like inventions of idolatrous madness, Scripture taught us beforehand long ago, when it said, ‘The devising of idols, as the beginning of fornication, and the invention of them, the corruption of life . . .’ [Ws 14:12] [2]

And later in the same work:

For since they were endeavouring to invest with what Scripture calls the incommunicable name . . . [3]

This reference to the “incommunicable name” comes from Wisdom 14:21 . . .

Athanasius quotes another passage from Wisdom as constituting the teachings of Christ, the Word of God. He undoubtedly uses it to confirm doctrine. [4] In another argument against Arians, he calls both the Protocanonical Proverbs and the Deuterocanonical Wisdom “holy Scripture” . . . [5] . . .

Athanasius also quotes the book of Sirach without distinction or qualification, in the midst of several other scriptural quotations. [6] . . . Athanasius calls the Book of Judith Scripture. [7] Tobit is cited right along with several Protocanonical quotations [8] , and even introduced with the solemn formula “it is written.” [9]

[1] Four Discourses Against the Arians, Discourse 1.12.
[2] Against the Heathen, 11.1. Emphasis added.
[3] Against the Heathen, 1, 17.3.
[4] On the Incarnate Word, 4.6; 5.2.
[5] Defense Against Arius, 1, 3.
[6] Life of Anthony, 28 and Apology Against the Arians, 66.
[7] Four Discourses Against the Arians, Discourse 2.35 . . .
[8] Defense of Constantius, 17. Tobit is cited after Matthew and Isaiah.
[9] Defense Against Arius, Part 1, 11.

The great Protestant Bible scholar F. F. Bruce confirms Michuta’s analysis:

As Athanasius includes Baruch and the ‘Letter of Jeremiah’ in one book with Jeremiah and Lamentations [in his list of the OT canon], so he probably includes the Greek additions to Daniel in the canonical book of that name, and the additions to Esther in the book of that name which he recommends for reading in church [but doesn’t list as a canonical book] . . .

In practice Athanasius appears to have paid little attention to the formal distinction between those books which he listed in the canon and those which were suitable for instruction of new Christians. He was familiar with the text of all, and quoted from them freely, often with the same introductory formula — ‘as it is written’, ‘as the scripture says’, etc. (The Canon of Scripture, Downers Grove, Illinois: InterVarsity Press, 1988, 79-80)

What is the claim that Mr. Frost is making as regards Athanasius and the councils of Ariminum, Seleucia, and Constantinople (360)? Is the claim that St. Athanasius espoused Arianism or Semi-Arianism, or that he placed any of these on the level of Nicaea: as ecumenical councils? If so, kindly document. Thanks! As it is, no one knows the point he is trying to make. Vagueness and obscurantism are the friends of empty polemics and special pleading.

David M. Gwynn, Lecturer in Ancient and Late Antique History at Royal Holloway, University of London, in his book, Athanasius of Alexandria: Bishop, Theologian, Ascetic, Father (Christian Theology in Context), 1st edition: Oxford University Press, U.S.A.; (April 7, 2012), p. 52, writes:
“Athanasius . . . upholds the supremacy of Nicaea against those who defend the Council of Ariminum . . . ”

See also, John R. Tyson, professor of church history and director of United Methodist Studies at Colgate Rochester Crozer Divinity School, Rochester, New York. He wrote the book, The Great Athanasius: An Introduction to His Life and Work (Cascade Books: April 17, 2017). See p. 163 (link to a Google Books scan).

The Orthodox agree with Catholics about the first seven ecumenical councils, so I don’t know what he is talking about or what point he is trying to make. Time will tell, I guess, as he answers further (assuming he does). I will keep replying and posting his responses here. Eventually it’ll be seen (as always with anti-Catholics) that he isn’t dealing with my arguments (just as he really hasn’t so far), and I’ll tire of it. But I’ll play along long enough to drive home the point that he is simply firing blanks: against me as a person and honest thinker and qualified apologist, and against my arguments.

He is gonna come to regret the day that he chose to insult and challenge me. He picked the wrong person.  If he wants to insult and evade more, that’s his choice. Thousands will see it.  If he can’t argue his positions, then he will continue to be exposed as a fool and sophist on my blog and in that discussion group. His choice.

Pointing out what he said about his own lack of relevant education on the topic is hardly an “insult.”

Why would I waste my precious weekend arguing with a Sociology major about theology when he has no formal theological education? What’s the point? And IF he thinks anything I’ve said is in error, then he can make the counter argument with his own evidence.

. . . which, of course, I have already done, and he is ignoring it, as predicted. These anti-Catholic clowns always act the same.

And we both know that NOTHING will come from any such silly “debate” since this is NOT an actual “debate” forum [how odd, for a group called, “Protestant, Orthodox and Catholic Debate”]. So who cares?

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Photo credit: [Pikrepo / public domain]

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2020-05-19T16:48:47-04:00

Ward Ricker is an atheist who (as so often) was formerly a self-described  “fundamentalist”. He likes to poke holes in the Bible and “prove” that it is a terrible and “evil” book, not inspired, hopelessly contradictory, etc. He put together a 222-page book called Unholy Bible (2019): available for free as a pdf file. It contains 421 couplets of passages that he considers literally contradictory, and 256 more couplets of not technically contradictory but “problem” passages (according to him). Ward wrote in his book: “I . . . am including here only what I consider to be the more firm examples of contradictions. . . .  I do not want to include examples that are ‘weak’ and will be easily refuted. I have made my best judgment.” Ward also wrote to me:

[M]any Bible critics (“atheists” or otherwise) will use some pretty ridiculous arguments . . . I have screened out those bogus claims that some critics make and have published my own book . . . of contradictions that I and others have found in the Bible that are clearly contradictions. (letter to National Catholic Register about one of my articles there; reproduced in my first reply)

He issued a challenge for anyone to take on his alleged contradictions. After my first reply, he wrote a 5 1/2 page article suggesting in-depth dialogue. I responded, explaining in depth why I thought dialogue between us would be unfruitful, for many reasons. He then accused me (among other things in his two replies) of “hypocrisy” that “knows no bounds.” This is, of course, against my discussion rules, which forbids such rank insults, so he was promptly banned from my blog, and I replied: “I was exactly right in my judgment that no dialogue was possible. It never takes long for the fangs to come out if they are there.”

But I had already stated: “I may still take on several of your proposed contradictions, just so I can have opportunity to show how very wrong atheist contentions are (which is one thing Christian apologists do).” This series represents that effort. Mr. Ricker can respond on his page as he sees fit. He can still see my posts. His words will be in blue. To search any of this series on my blog, paste “Ward’s Whoppers #” in the search bar on the top right of my blog page. He uses the King James Version for his Bible verses. I will use RSV in my replies.

*****

106.
1 Samuel 17: 50 So David prevailed over the Philistine with a sling and with a stone, and smote the Philistine, and slew him; but there was no sword in the hand of David.

Vs:

1 Samuel 17: 51 Therefore David ran, and stood upon the Philistine, and took his sword, and drew it out of the sheath thereof, and slew him, and cut off his head therewith. And when the Philistines saw their champion was dead, they fled.

Q: With which weapon did David kill Goliath?

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This alleged difficulty is satisfactorily resolved, I think, by one of the apologists at the Domain for Truth website: “Bible Contradiction? How did David kill Goliath?” (9-20-16):

[W]orking with the Hebrew language is important because we must ask in what sense are the Hebrew verbs “kill” being used in both verse 50 and verse 51.  . . .

In verse 50 the verb וַיְמִיתֵ֑הוּ for “kill” is in the Hiphil form.  For those who know Hebrew it is common knowledge that Hiphil  forms often convey the causative idea.  Thus what the verb in verse 50 is telling us is that David caused Goliath’s death.  The means that David used which began Goliath’s death is of course the slingshot.

In verse 51 the verb  וַיְמֹ֣תְתֵ֔הוּ for “kill” is in the Polel form.  It appears less frequently than the other verbal forms of מוּת.  According to Old Testament scholar Robert Chisholm this verbal form has “a specialized shade of meaning, referring to finishing off someone who is already mortally wounded” (Chisholm, Interpreting the Historical Books, 172).

In light of the above understanding of the Hebrew verbal forms, we don’t have a contradiction.  Again the Hiphil form of the verb “kill” in verse 50 tells us that David began the cause of Goliath’s death by means of the slingshot.  Then in verse 51 the Polel form of the verb “kill” tells us how David finished off an already mortally wounded Goliath, namely with the sword. [my links to article about the two verb forms added]

The article also provides parallel verses. 2 Samuel 1:9-10 is about the death of Saul, who was mortally wounded in battle and then asked a soldier to kill him, to put him out of his misery. The two instances of “kill” in the passage also use the Polel form in the same sense as in the David and Goliath situation. Further verses that utilize the Polel form with regard to killing are 1 Samuel 14:13 and Judges 9:54. In the latter instance, a man’s skull was crushed with a big millstone (9:53), but someone thrust a sword into him to kill him.

Moreover, the scholarly work, 4QSamuela and the Text of Samuel (Jason Driesbach, 2016) verifies the above argument and the use of Polel form in 1 Samuel 17:51 and cites (in agreement with the above) further examples (on p. 84) of its use in 1 Samuel 4:13 and 2 Samuel 1:9-10, 16. Compare another biblical commentary (footnote 9a) on this very question.

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Photo credit: David Slaying Goliath (1616), by Peter Paul Rubens (1577-1640) [public domain / Wikimedia Commons]

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2020-04-23T16:07:12-04:00

David Palm’s words will be in blue. He is a traditionalist and friend of mine for some 25 years now. Words of James Scott will be in green. This discussion took place on my Facebook page.

*****

One thing I can’t get over is the blatant hypocrisy of the Radtrad crowd. They hate Vatican II because of its alleged “ambiguity” but their complaints about it are often ambiguous. Where in the text is the blatant doctrinal error? In thirty years I have never received a good answer.

Quiet James! You’ll expose the foolish game they have now been playing for 55 years . . .

I think this is a misrepresentation. If the claim was “blatant” doctrinal error then it couldn’t be at the same time “ambiguous”. We’ve already discussed the ambiguity in Dei Verbum 11 which even Cardinal Pell and Fr. Fessio take to mean there can be errors in Scripture. Likewise there are ambiguities with regard to ecumenism, religious liberty, the liturgy, etc. As mainstream a Catholic priest as Msgr. George Kelly wrote in Battle for the American Church that “The documents of the Council contain enough basic ambiguities to make the post-conciliar difficulties understandable.” What many of us have been asking for is simply an official interpretation of those conciliar texts in harmony with past magisterial teachings, along the lines of what was done by the CDF in the controversy over the phrase “substitit in”. It seems it shouldn’t be too much to ask that after all this time we have magisterial rulings rather than having to rely on theologians or even lay apologists to propose unofficial harmonizations.

I defended Vatican II in twelve lengthy papers (vs. reactionary Paolo Pasqualucci). You’re welcome to interact with any of those (maybe you could actually be persuaded of a thing or two), but you rarely want to do that with me. I’m with James. I have yet to find any insurmountable “problems” in the documents. I’m not claiming to be an expert; just sayin’ that I don’t see the problem.

Dave, we don’t need any more amateur attempts to explain the ambiguities. We need official, magisterial harmonizations with prior magisterial teaching. It’s about time.

I see. So you think these difficulties are so beyond any doubt that you refuse to even discuss them unless popes and high-ranking bishops give official interpretations . . .

Of course (almost needless to say), I cite important figures all through my twelve defenses. I never reply on my own reasoning alone in such weighty matters. Why should anyone care what I think? So I cite folks with much more credentials and authority.

I remember reading The Battle for the Bible (1977) by Harold Lindsell, back in the day when I was a fervent evangelical, and his making the point in the book that the Catholic Church had a doctrine of the inspiration and infallibility of Scripture that was as “high” as any Protestant view (it really struck me at the time, and I was delighted to learn of it). And that was well past Vatican II. So even Protestant scholars can see this, but not our beloved traditionalists and reactionaries.

The text in question is from Dei Verbum, III, Article 11:

Therefore, since everything asserted by the inspired authors or sacred writers must be held to be asserted by the Holy Spirit, it follows that the books of Scripture must be acknowledged as teaching solidly, faithfully and without error that truth which God wanted put into sacred writings (5) for the sake of salvation. Therefore “all Scripture is divinely inspired and has its use for teaching the truth and refuting error, for reformation of manners and discipline in right living, so that the man who belongs to God may be efficient and equipped for good work of every kind” (2 Tim. 3:16-17, Greek text).

[Footnotes: 5. cf. St. Augustine, “Gen. ad Litt.” 2, 9, 20:PL 34, 270-271; Epistle 82, 3: PL 33, 277: CSEL 34, 2, p. 354. St. Thomas, “On Truth,” Q. 12, A. 2, C.Council of Trent, session IV, Scriptural Canons: Denzinger 783 (1501). Leo XIII, encyclical “Providentissimus Deus:” EB 121, 124, 126-127. Pius XII, encyclical “Divino Afflante Spiritu:” EB 539.]

This conciliar passage contains a fundamental ambiguity which has misled even normally trustworthy churchmen such as Fr. Fessio and Card. Pell into limiting Scripture’s inerrancy to only those parts of Scripture which were written “for the sake of our salvation”. I submit that that sort of evidence indicates that the ambiguity is real and genuinely problematic. In light of that sort of confusion, am I wrong to state that an official, magisterial clarification is called for?

It tells us the Bible was written for salvation, not that only that which discusses salvation is true. There is no way to get from this to the error of limited inerrancy because all that is asserted to be true by sacred scripture is to be taken as true: regardless of whether it pertains to salvation. Of course that doesn’t eliminate the possibility of relative error in the text, but there is no true error.

Is Footnote 5 for this passage, which cites two works of St. Augustine, St. Thomas Aquinas, the council of Trent, Pope Leo XIII, and Ven. pope Pius XII, suspect, too, or did Vatican II distort their thoughts?

What am I missing here? The text says that “everything asserted” (i.e., all of Scripture) . . . [teaches] “truth which God wanted put into sacred writings for the sake of salvation.”

Then you say that Pell and Fessio are somehow talking about “only those parts of Scripture” that do this stuff. But Dei Verbum didn’t state that. So if this is the sort of the fabled “ambiguity” you are trying to establish, I must say it is a completely failed example, and rests on a total distortion of the interpreters, not the document.

I thoroughly demolished this false interpretation in one of the series of twelve articles I referred you to, in reply to Pasqualucci (that you won’t debate and maybe won’t even read [?], either): #6: Dei Verbum & the Bible [7-16-19]. In this article I relied on the argument from Fr. Brian W. Harrison (who is now a reactionary, too, I believe), in his article: “The Truth and Salvific Purpose of Sacred Scripture, According to Dei Verbum, Article 11″ (Roman Theological Forum, July 1995).

He demolishes interpretations of the sort you reference. But if you refuse to read what he says, then you will remain uninformed. In this case, ignorance is not bliss. You remain conflicted and troubled about Vatican II, by attempting to ignore orthodox defenses of it, by excellent scholars like Fr. Harrison: who clearly can’t be accused of liberal bias, whether at the time he wrote it (25 years ago), or now, with his current reactionary inclinations.

Fr. Harrison and the late Fr. Most ran point on this, but for some reason traditionalists today (I mean the sane loyal ones) want to pretend none of that has been written? Weird?

Jim Blackburn wrote an excellent article, “Is Scripture Inerrant?” (Catholic Answers, 1-1-14). He recounts the constant tradition of “unrestricted inerrancy”:

In 1893 Pope Leo XIII issued the most comprehensive treatment of Scripture interpretation the world had seen. Providentissimus Deus was a landmark encyclical that sought to correct the plethora of error about Scripture then circulating the world. In it, the pontiff traced the history of Scripture in the Catholic Church, addressed challenges, and defended the truth of Scripture. Pope Leo affirmed an unrestricted understanding of the inerrancy of Scripture:

For all the books which the Church receives as sacred and canonical are written wholly and entirely, with all their parts, at the dictation of the Holy Ghost; and so far is it from being possible that any error can co-exist with inspiration, that inspiration not only is essentially incompatible with error but excludes and rejects it as absolutely and necessarily, as it is impossible that God Himself, the supreme Truth, can utter that which is not true. . . . It follows that those who maintain that an error is possible in any genuine passage of the sacred writings either pervert the Catholic notion of inspiration or make God the author of such error (Providentissimus Deus, 20-21).

Pope St. Pius X in his 1907 Lamentabili Sane condemned the proposition “Divine inspiration does not extend to all of Sacred Scriptures so that it renders its parts, each and every one, free from every error” (LS 11).

Pope Benedict XV re-affirmed Pope Leo XIII’s teaching in his own encyclical Spiritus Paraclitus in 1920:

But although these words of our predecessor leave no room for doubt or dispute, it grieves us to find that not only men outside, but even children of the Catholic Church—nay, what is a peculiar sorrow to us, even clerics and professors of sacred learning—who in their own conceit either openly repudiate or at least attack in secret the Church’s teaching on this point (SP 18).

Benedict appealed to the life and teaching of St. Jerome as a model for timeless treatment of Scripture. Specifically, he noted, “Jerome further shows that the immunity of Scripture from error or deception is necessarily bound up with its divine inspiration and supreme authority” (SP 13). Also, “St. Jerome’s teaching on this point serves to confirm and illustrate what our predecessor of happy memory, Leo XIII, declared to be the ancient and traditional belief of the Church touching the absolute immunity of Scripture from error” (SP 16).

Pope Pius XII’s 1943 encyclical Divino Afflante Spiritu again affirmed the teaching of Leo XIII in light of biblical criticism and the difficulties of his own time. Of significant note, the pontiff used the incarnational analogy to compare the unrestricted inerrancy of sacred scripture with the absolute sinlessness of Jesus: “For as the substantial Word of God became like to men in all things, except sin, so the words of God, expressed in human language, are made like to human speech in every respect, except error” (DAS 37).

Thus, just as the Word took on human flesh in Jesus, the Word took on human language in Sacred Scripture. And just as Jesus is fully human yet fully divine, Scripture is authored by both human authors and the divine Author. And finally, just as Jesus is like men in all ways except he is without sin, Scripture is like human literature in all ways except it is without error.

In his 1950 encyclical Humani Generis, Pope Pius XII dealt with the issue yet again: “For some . . . put forward again the opinion, already often condemned, which asserts that immunity from error extends only to those parts of the Bible that treat of God or of moral and religious matters” (HG 22).

As we can see, popes taught the unrestricted inerrancy of Scripture over the decades leading up to Vatican II.

Then Blackburn cites Scott Hahn, who argues from the footnote of the disputed section (similarly to how I did above):

Hahn expands his view of the sentence in question in light of its footnote:

[T]he lengthy footnote attached to this sentence cites multiple sources from the tradition which speak of Scripture’s comprehensive conformity to the truth. Thus, in agreement with the document’s use of footnotes in general, the references in the present footnote underscore the continuity of the Council’s teaching with theological and magisterial positions of the past.

. . . Hahn also considers the sentence in light of its broader textual context:

[S]ince the preceding clause insists that everything (omne id) asserted by the human authors is likewise asserted by the Holy Spirit, a restricted inerrancy reading leaves no way to avoid imputing misstatements of fact to the divine author. Yet earlier papal statements declare such a proposition flatly “impossible.”

Finally, Hahn points out the absurdity of a supposed silent doctrinal shift:

[I]t borders on inconceivable that the Council fathers were introducing a development of doctrine with virtually no indication that they were doing so and no explanation as to why the time was ripe for taking such a momentous step. If this were the case, the Council could only be charged with dodging a grave responsibility to the people of God.

Hahn concludes that Dei Verbum did not change the Church’s teaching on inerrancy:

Taken together, the cumulative force of these observations supports the contention that Dei Verbum’s teaching on biblical truth stands in doctrinal continuity with previous ecclesiastical teaching on the inerrancy of Scripture. One can legitimately speak of a new emphasis on the Bible’s salvific purpose, but not of a fundamental departure from the Church’s historic position on its unlimited truthfulness.

See also: “Magisterial Teaching on the Inspiration and Truth of Scripture: Precedents and Prospects” (Pablo T. Gadenz, Letter & Spirit 6 [2010] ).

I found an article that deals with footnote 5: “For the Sake of Our Salvation”: Interpreting Dei Verbum, Art. 11, Fifty Years Later” (Robert P. Miller, Journal of Scriptural Reasoning, 11-16-16):

In order to clarify what the council’s intended meaning was in writing this paragraph, the fathers of the council placed a footnote in the hopes that any confusion would be avoided. The footnote contains citations from Augustine, Aquinas, the Council of Trent, Leo XIII, and Pius XII.

The first reference to St. Augustine is a lengthy comment from his work on the literal interpretation of Genesis. Given Augustine’s belief in the historical accuracy of Genesis, one would expect him to give a defense of this in his work, but instead of defending a scientific position, Augustine goes on to explain that the meaning of a text is more important than scientific questions. This quotation demonstrates that Augustine’s major concern was to distinguish what was important and what was not important. He is not interested in the shape of the earth even though he believes that the sacred writers knew the truth about such matters, for the Holy Spirit spoke to them only what was profitable for their salvation. Here, Augustine makes no distinction about what is or is not profitable for salvation. For him, all of scripture was profitable for salvation.

A second reference to St. Augustine is from Epistle 82.3. Here Augustine is replying to a letter from Jerome. After discussing how they might engage each other in a “friendlier” discussion, Augustine writes:

For I confess to your charity that I have learned to yield this respect and honor only to the canonical books of Scripture: of these alone do I most firmly believe that the authors were completely free from error. And if in these writings I am perplexed by anything which appears to me opposed to truth, I do not hesitate to suppose that either the manuscript is faulty, or the translator has not caught the meaning of what was said, or I myself have failed to understand it.

. . . in this text, Augustine indicates that the authors of scripture were “completely free from error.” Likewise, he indicates that difficult passages of scripture can only “appear” to be opposed to the truth, and this would be due either to errors in the transmission of the manuscript or mistranslation.

The council also quotes Thomas Aquinas’ work “Disputed Questions on Truth.” In this text, Aquinas draws directly on Augustine when addressing the question: “Does Prophecy Deal with Conclusions which Can Be Known Scientifically?”

In his answer, Aquinas says that “All those things the knowledge of which can be useful for salvation are the matter of prophecy, whether they are past, or future, or even eternal, or necessary, or contingent. But those things which cannot pertain to salvation are outside the matter of prophecy.” However, he immediately goes on to add that by “necessary for salvation,” he means “necessary for the instruction in the faith or the formation of morals.” Strikingly, he asserts that “many things which are proved in the sciences can be useful for this [that is, salvation].”…For this reason, Aquinas ultimately answers the question in the affirmative: “Conclusions which are demonstrated in the sciences can belong to prophecy.”

[ . . . ]

The next note is a reference to the Council of Trent, which wrote on the controversy surrounding the canonical scriptures:

This [Gospel], of old promised through the Prophets in the Holy Scriptures, our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, promulgated first with His own mouth, and then commanded it to be preached by His Apostles to every creature as the source at once of all saving truth and rules of conduct; It also clearly perceives that these truths and rules are contained in the written books and in the unwritten traditions, which, received by the Apostles from the mouth of Christ Himself, or from the Apostles themselves, the Holy Ghost dictating, have come down to us, transmitted as it were from hand to hand.

Here, the “saving truth and rules of conduct” (or moral discipline) is not set in opposition with truths not pertaining to salvation. While those who subscribe to the limited inerrancy of scripture could admit that the passage does not address the subject of historical or scientific truth, neither can he cite this silent witness in his favor.

The note also refers to what Leo XIII wrote in Providentissimus Deus regarding the extent of inspiration and the incompatibility of inspiration with error. His emphatic insistence on the inerrancy of scripture is evident in several passages. He writes:

For all the books which the Church receives as sacred and canonical are written wholly and entirely, with all their parts, at the dictation of the Holy Spirit; and so far is it from being possible that any error can coexist with inspiration, that inspiration not only is essentially incompatible with error, but excludes it and rejects it as absolutely and necessarily as it is impossible that God Himself, the supreme Truth, can utter that which is not true. (emphasis added)

Leo continues speaking about the incompatibility of inspiration with error saying:

It follows that those who maintain that an error is possible in any genuine passage of the sacred writings either pervert the Catholic notion of inspiration or make God the author of such error. And so emphatically were all the Fathers and Doctors agreed that the divine writings…are free from all error…

[ . . . ]

The final citation in footnote five refers to Divino Afflante Spiritu (DAS) by Pius XII who comments on the work of Leo XIII. Pius begins by declaring that the purpose for which Leo wrote was to “set forth the teaching on the truth” of scripture and “to defend it from attack.” Pius then states:

Finally it is absolutely wrong and forbidden “either to narrow inspiration to certain passages of Holy Scripture, or to admit that the sacred writer has erred,” since divine inspiration “not only is essentially incompatible with error but excludes and rejects it as absolutely and necessarily as it is impossible that God Himself, the supreme Truth, can utter that which is not true. This is the ancient and constant faith of the Church.

In addition, Pius went further in DAS by making the connection between the inerrancy of scripture and the incarnation of Christ. He writes: “For as the substantial Word of God became like to men in all things ‘except sin’ (Heb 4:15), so the words of God, expressed in human language, are made like to human speech in every respect except error.”

In effect, we already have David Palm’s requested official, magisterial clarification.” Past popes (Leo XIII, Ven. Pius XII) were cited in the relevant footnote, teaching unlimited inerrancy, and according to Catholic dogmatic theology and how these things routinely work (what footnotes mean in magisterial documents; the role they play), that is sufficient to interpret the text under question in an entirely traditional manner. In other words, it settles it, and it does so from the magisterium: right from popes. Thus, the request has already been granted.

This is perfectly legitimate, but it won’t be accepted, just as similar arguments regarding Amoris Laetitia were not. Vatican II Derangement Syndrome and Pope Francis Derangement Syndrome simply cannot be overcome, no matter how reasonable and in accord with Sacred Tradition any explanation we provide, is, because the hostility of the foundational premise is too profound.

As the saying goes, “a man convinced against his will retains his original beliefs still.”

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Photo credit: book cover from the bookseller Abe Books.com.

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2020-04-13T11:07:17-04:00

1 Chronicles 21: 1, 5-14 (RSV) Satan stood up against Israel, and incited David to number Israel. . . . [5] And Jo’ab gave the sum of the numbering of the people to David. . . . [6] But he did not include Levi and Benjamin in the numbering, for the king’s command was abhorrent to Jo’ab. [7] But God was displeased with this thing, and he smote Israel. [8] And David said to God, “I have sinned greatly in that I have done this thing. But now, I pray thee, take away the iniquity of thy servant; for I have done very foolishly.” [9] And the LORD spoke to Gad, David’s seer, saying, [10] “Go and say to David, `Thus says the LORD, Three things I offer you; choose one of them, that I may do it to you.'” [11] So Gad came to David and said to him, “Thus says the LORD, `Take which you will: [12] either three years of famine; or three months of devastation by your foes, while the sword of your enemies overtakes you; or else three days of the sword of the LORD, pestilence upon the land, and the angel of the LORD destroying throughout all the territory of Israel.’ Now decide what answer I shall return to him who sent me.” [13] Then David said to Gad, “I am in great distress; let me fall into the hand of the LORD, for his mercy is very great; but let me not fall into the hand of man.” [14] So the LORD sent a pestilence upon Israel; and there fell seventy thousand men of Israel.

At first glance, this does seem to be a very strange passage indeed, and quite difficult to understand, in light of the biblical teaching that God is loving and merciful and just in His judgments. It seems to pose a challenge to those notions. God appears to be capricious, unfair, arbitrary, and unjust: judging 70,000 souls because of the sin of David. So it’s not unusual that atheists would take this and have a field day with it, because even Christians struggle with it; such as one Methodist pastor, who wrote:

God’s anger and wrath. In the Old Testament, God’s anger repeatedly burns against his people for their disobedience. At times, the punishment he dispenses seems particularly harsh, unjust, and disproportionate. Let’s consider just one example.

In 2 Samuel 24, we find that King David decided to take a census of the men of fighting age. The prophet Gad was sent to David to announce God’s displeasure with the taking of the census. The punishment for David’s sin: “The Lord sent a pestilence on Israel from that morning until the appointed time; and seventy thousand of the people died” (2 Samuel 24:15). David makes a decision that does not please God, and God kills 70,000 Israelites for it? How could this action ever be reconciled with a God of mercy, compassion, justice, and love?

An atheist site expresses its disdain in the title of its article devoted to this: “God killed 70,000 because David did a census that God (or Satan) told him to do.”

But I think I have a plausible and satisfactory explanation, that makes sense of the seeming oddities or mysteries regarding God’s judgment. It’s arrived at particularly by examining the cross reference to the passage: 2 Samuel, chapter 24, more closely.

2 Samuel 24:1 Again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he incited David against them, saying, “Go, number Israel and Judah.”

As for the question of Satan seeming to be the instigator of this in one passage (1 Chr 21:1), but God being the cause in the parallel passage (2 Sam 24:1), see my explanation elsewhere. But why was God angry; why did He want to judge Israel? Well, it was actually only one tribe of Israel that deserved His wrath:

2 Samuel 24:15 So the LORD sent a pestilence upon Israel from the morning until the appointed time; and there died of the people from Dan to Beer-sheba seventy thousand men. (in 1 Chronicles 21 it doesn’t specify the tribe of Dan).

What sins did this tribe commit, then, to receive such a harsh judgment? Well, we know several things from Scripture. Dan abandoned God and turned to idolatry before the time of David:

Judges 18:30-31 And the Danites set up the graven image for themselves; and Jonathan the son of Gershom, son of Moses, and his sons were priests to the tribe of the Danites until the day of the captivity of the land. [31] So they set up Micah’s graven image which he made, as long as the house of God was at Shiloh.

Its downfall was predicted far earlier, in fact:

Genesis 49:17 Dan shall be a serpent in the way, a viper by the path, that bites the horse’s heels so that his rider falls backward.

The tribe of Dan is not listed among the tribes names in Revelation 7:4-8. The reasonable explanation, from what we know in Scripture, is that it was due to this described idolatry. Their captivity under the Assyrians took place in 722 B.C. (1 Ki 12:28-30; 2 Ki 10:29). That was some 240 years after King David, but Judges 18:30 tells us that they were in bondage to idolatry the entire time. Hence, it is perfectly plausible to posit that this is why they were judged during the time of David (70,000 slain).

Idolatry was one of the gravest sins, and it is repeatedly condemned throughout the Old Testament, with warnings of impending judgment, failing repentance. For example:

2 Chronicles 24:18-20 And they forsook the house of the LORD, the God of their fathers, and served the Ashe’rim and the idols. And wrath came upon Judah and Jerusalem for this their guilt. [19] Yet he sent prophets among them to bring them back to the LORD; these testified against them, but they would not give heed. [20] Then the Spirit of God took possession of Zechari’ah the son of Jehoi’ada the priest; and he stood above the people, and said to them, “Thus says God, `Why do you transgress the commandments of the LORD, so that you cannot prosper? Because you have forsaken the LORD, he has forsaken you.'”

Ezekiel 20:18-19 And I said to their children in the wilderness, Do not walk in the statutes of your fathers, nor observe their ordinances, nor defile yourselves with their idols. [19] I the LORD am your God; walk in my statutes, and be careful to observe my ordinances,

Ezekiel 36:18-19 So I poured out my wrath upon them for the blood which they had shed in the land, for the idols with which they had defiled it. [19] I scattered them among the nations, and they were dispersed through the countries; in accordance with their conduct and their deeds I judged them.

God judges target groups of people who are particularly evil (or else entire countries that have become evil). They are accountable for their own sins, as the Bible teaches:

2 Kings 14:6 But he did not put to death the children of the murderers; according to what is written in the book of the law of Moses, where the LORD commanded, “The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, or the children be put to death for the fathers; but every man shall die for his own sin.” (cf. parallel passage 2 Chr 25:4)

Jeremiah 31:30 But every one shall die for his own sin . . .

2 Maccabees 7:32 For we are suffering because of our own sins.

1 Peter 1:17 . . . who judges each one impartially according to his deeds . . .

Thus, in this particular instance, it was the tribe of Dan that was His specific target, because it had given itself up wholly to idolatry; hence, were more than ripe for judgment by the time of King David.

Lastly, it might be objected that the phrase “from Dan to Beersheba” referred to the entirety of Israel (as opposed to the tribe of Dan only). But we know that the original region of the tribe of Dan was west of Jerusalem. The Encyclopaedia Britannica article (“Dan”) confirms this:

The portion assigned to the tribe of Dan was a region west of Jerusalem. At least part of the tribe later moved to the extreme northeast and took the city of Laish, renaming it Dan. As the northernmost Israelite city it became a point of reference in the familiar phrase “from Dan to Beersheba.” [my italics]

When God was judging in this instance, in fact, He did not judge “throughout all the territory of Israel” (1 Chr 21:12). 70,000 were already judged when the angel of God came to Jerusalem (that is, the region east of the tribe of Dan’s area; “David lifted his eyes and saw the angel of the LORD standing between earth and heaven, and in his hand a drawn sword stretched out over Jerusalem”: 1 Chr 21:16), at which point God in His mercy, and apparently in part due to the intercession of David and his elders (1 Chr 21:16-17), stopped the frightful judgment (2 Sam 24:16; 1 Chr 21:15).

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Photo credit: Sacrifice of Jeroboam [i.e., to idols] (1641), by Claes Moeyaert (1591-1655) [public domain / Wikimedia Commons]

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2021-05-16T13:51:16-04:00

[Chapter Thirteen of my book, Biblical Catholic Salvation: “Faith Working Through Love” (Oct. 2010) ]

*****

Alleged “prooftexts” must also be exegeted. Appearances of ostensible strength and multiple passages in support of a position can often be deceiving. On the other hand, some doctrines need only a few direct verses in order to be believed (e.g., the virgin birth or original sin). I shall offer counter-explanations for each of the biblical passages below, which were offered on a public discussion board by a Reformed Protestant (Calvinist) apologist, as “proofs” of absolute assurance.

Perseverance of the saints, or the “P” in TULIP, is merely a tautological truism: saying that the elect (i.e., those who are eschatologically saved) will be saved (Jesus says in John 6:39: “I should lose nothing of all that he has given me”). No one disputes that. Of course they will be saved, because that is the very definition of “elect” (Romans 11:29: “For the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable”).  I am specifically critiquing the notion that we can possess or achieve absolute assurance of our own salvation or anyone else’s.

Many Calvinists would agree with my position, since even John Calvin taught that no one can know for sure that they are of the elect (Institutes, III:21:2;  IV:1:2-3, 8; IV:12:9; commentary on John 6:40). That’s basically the same as asserting that no one can be absolutely sure of their salvation because of some past proclamation or resolve or anything else.

John 10:26-29 (RSV) but you do not believe, because you do not belong to my sheep. [27] My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me; [28] and I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish, and no one shall snatch them out of my hand. [29] My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.

Jesus gives eternal life to His sheep. No one denies that. That’s different from a person “knowing” for sure whether he or she is one of His sheep, with absolute certainty. We can, however, arrive at a moral or practical assurance (after an examination of conscience) that we are presently in Christ, and following His will, as it is revealed in Holy Scripture, and in good graces with God (free of objective and subjective mortal sin).

John 5:24 Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears my word and believes him who sent me, has eternal life; he does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.

Five verses later (Jn 5:29), our Lord Jesus speaks about “those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of judgment.” No one who doesn’t do the good works will inherit eternal life (cf. Mt 25:31-46), and we can’t know now that we will always do good works.

But the Calvinist has a ready explanation; a stock answer to explain the person who seemed by all appearances to be a Christian, and then fell away or fell into extremely serious sin: they were “obviously” never saved. But this perfectly illustrates the conundrum: if such a person was thought by everyone to be saved and in the elect, but actually wasn’t, as later proved by his behavior (that no one imagined ever happening), then in fact, neither the person in question nor anyone else possessed the so-called “assurance” that he or she was saved, from the beginning.

That is true for everyone. We simply don’t know the future. All we can do is strive to follow God’s will earnestly, just as St. Paul stressed, lest we become “disqualified” (1 Cor 9:27).

Ephesians 1:13-14 In him you also, who have heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and have believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, [14] which is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.

This is initial justification. Final or eschatological justification and salvation, however, is conditioned upon walking in the good works “which God prepared beforehand” (Eph 2:10; cf. 4:22-32; 5:1-18). Paul later in his epistle emphasizes that attaining salvation is an ongoing struggle, possible only by God’s grace: “be strong in the Lord and in the strength of his might. Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil” (6:10-11).

Nothing here gives any assurance that this battle is already won; it’s not yet certain. Paul is urging perseverance: “take the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand” (6:13); “keep alert with all perseverance” (6:18).

Philippians 1:6 And I am sure that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.

First of all, we must understand that Paul is writing to a church. I doubt that any Calvinist would claim that the entire church of Philippi consisted of all elect people who would be saved and go to heaven. So the statement above must be qualified somewhat. God will do whatever He wishes (no argument there). It is only in applying it to any given individual that we have much less certainty. There is no such certainty, not even for Paul about his own salvation, for later in the same epistle, he writes:

Philippians 3:10-14 that I may know him and the power of his resurrection, and may share his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, [11] that if possible I may attain the resurrection from the dead. [12] Not that I have already obtained this or am already perfect; but I press on to make it my own, because Christ Jesus has made me his own. [13] Brethren, I do not consider that I have made it my own; but one thing I do, forgetting what lies behind and straining forward to what lies ahead, [14] I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.

One must harmonize all these verses; not simply present one strain of apostolic thought to the exclusion of the other.

1 Peter 1:3-5 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! By his great mercy we have been born anew to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, [4] and to an inheritance which is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, [5] who by God’s power are guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

St. Peter, like Paul, is writing to a group (thought to be Christians in northern Asia Minor). Unless one claims every one of them was saved and of the elect (cf. 2:9-10), then it seems apparent that the above must be interpreted as the explication of a general principle: the self-evident tautology that those who are predestined by God are predestined.

Peter goes on to spend a great deal of time dealing with good works, that exhibit the “genuineness” of faith (1 Pet 1:7). When it comes to the individual, however, all of a sudden, Peter teaches, “Like newborn babes, long for the pure spiritual milk, that by it you may grow up to salvation” (2:2). We can’t “grow up” to what is already possessed. That makes no sense. And in another writing, Peter states:

2 Peter 2:15, 20-21 Forsaking the right way they have gone astray; they have followed the way of Balaam, the son of Be’or, who loved gain from wrongdoing, . . . [20] For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overpowered, the last state has become worse for them than the first. [21] For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them.

This sure doesn’t appear to teach absolute assurance of salvation: let alone salvation as a one-time event (or justification, in the Protestant sense).

Psalm 37:28 For the LORD loves justice; he will not forsake his saints. The righteous shall be preserved for ever, but the children of the wicked shall be cut off.

This tells us nothing about how one knows for sure that he is of the elect. The only way to even speculate and have any assurance at all is to be righteous and holy: that is the biblical teaching, and why works are so overwhelmingly emphasized at the Last Judgment, as virtually the criterion of entrance into salvation and heaven.

Psalm 121:3, 7-8 He will not let your foot be moved, he who keeps you will not slumber. . . . [7] The LORD will keep you from all evil; he will keep your life. [8] The LORD will keep your going out and your coming in from this time forth and for evermore.

This is proverbial in some sense, and conditioned upon human cooperation. After all, even King David, a “man after God’s own heart,” one with whom God made an eternal covenant, committed murder and adultery. God didn’t preserve him from all evil (people had to die because of his sin). But David repented. That’s the whole point. We can fall and repent and be restored by God’s grace and mercy and boundless lovingkindness. God will preserve His elect.

Thus, many of these alleged “prooftexts” for assurance are self-evident truths that all Christians agree with, and no proof of a Calvinist position over against the Arminian or Catholic or Orthodox soteriological positions.

1 Corinthians 10:13 No temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man. God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond your strength, but with the temptation will also provide the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it.

This proves nothing as concerns a supposed absolute assurance. God gives power to overcome temptation: a completely uncontroversial truth. But what is the context? St. Paul in chapter 10 refers to the disobedience of the Jews wandering in the wilderness. He writes, “these things are warnings for us, not to desire evil as they did” (10:6). He urges against idolatry and immorality, mentioning that “23,000 fell in a single day” (10:8).

He states, “we must not put the Lord to the test, as some of them did and were destroyed by serpents” (10:9). He cautions Christians that “these things happened to them as a warning, but they were written down for our instruction” (10:11). Does he tell the Corinthians that they are “safe and secure in Christ, not to worry, since they are already saved”? No; rather, he warns:

1 Corinthians 10:12 Therefore let any one who thinks that he stands take heed lest he fall.

After that, the Apostle Paul affirms the truth that God’s power is able to withstand all temptation. None of this proves in the slightest that believers cannot fall away, or are assured of instant salvation, as if the Christian life is the equivalent of fast food at McDonalds. Paul is writing about God’s power, not our assurance that we went up to an altar on a certain Sunday and “got saved,” and “accepted Jesus into our hearts” and are therefore guaranteed a spot in heaven. Even the fabled evangelical “altar calls” are not found anywhere in the Bible.

2 Timothy 1:12 and therefore I suffer as I do. But I am not ashamed, for I know whom I have believed, and I am sure that he is able to guard until that Day what has been entrusted to me.

2 Timothy 4:18 The Lord will rescue me from every evil and save me for his heavenly kingdom. . . .

Indeed, if one is predestined for heaven (and Catholics, too, believe firmly in the predestination of the elect — it’s a dogma of the Catholic Church — just not also the damned), God will do all this. The same Paul, however, also writes the following words to Timothy:

1 Timothy 4:1 Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by giving heed to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons,

1 Timothy 5:15 For some have already strayed after Satan.

* * *

John 6:39 and this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up at the last day.

No one disagrees with this. God’s sovereignty is not in dispute, nor is God’s undeserved love for the elect, or election itself (the Catholic only disagrees with predestined reprobation). Catholics believe that Christ’s redemptive work is sufficient to save anyone, but that people have a free will to reject His work for them.

Galatians 5:1, 4 For freedom Christ has set us free; stand fast therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery. . . . [4] You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace.

Calvinists argue that people who seemingly fall away from faith are “severed from the covenant community” – like those who were severed from the olive tree in Romans 11. They never had faith to begin with, and didn’t trust Jesus alone with faith alone for justification, so they are dead branches.

The problem with such a view, however, is to explain how a branch can be severed from a tree if it was never connected to it. And how can a person be said to have “fallen away from grace” if they have never had it? We don’t say that someone “fell off the ledge” if, in fact, they never sat on it in the first place.

Why does Paul admonish the Galatians to “stand fast . . . do not submit again to a yoke of slavery,” if there is no danger whatsoever of that happening? These people were Christians and now are not: “You were running well; who hindered you from obeying the truth?” (Gal 5:7).

Paul nowhere in this epistle takes the Calvinist approach of claiming that the straying people were severed from the churches of Galatia or never were part of it (wolves in sheep’s clothing). Quite the contrary; he rebukes the “foolish Galatians” en masse:

Galatians 1:6 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and turning to a different gospel –

Galatians 3:1-4 O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified? [2] Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law, or by hearing with faith? [3] Are you so foolish? Having begun with the Spirit, are you now ending with the flesh? [4] Did you experience so many things in vain? — if it really is in vain.

But after rebuking them, he turns around and writes exhortations like the following ones (presupposing that restoration is entirely possible):

Galatians 5:10, 13, 16, 21, 25; 6:1 I have confidence in the Lord that you will take no other view than mine; and he who is troubling you will bear his judgment, whoever he is. . . . [13] For you were called to freedom, brethren . . . [16] But I say, walk by the Spirit, and do not gratify the desires of the flesh. [21] . . . I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. . . . [25] If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit. . . . [1] Brethren, if a man is overtaken in any trespass, you who are spiritual should restore him in a spirit of gentleness. Look to yourself, lest you too be tempted.

Paul’s epistle to the Galatians doesn’t seem to indicate that anyone is necessarily cut off eternally, either from the Church or from God. Romans 11:16-24 is cited as an analogy, because it is also a word picture of an olive tree and branches. But when we examine Romans 11 closely it only greatly strengthens the Catholic “case.”

The branches broken off were the unbelieving Jews. But note how Paul thinks about this. Does he casually assume that the Christians who have been grafted onto the tree are absolutely safe from falling away like some of the Jews did? No. Here is what he states:

Romans 11:20-24 . . . They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast only through faith. So do not become proud, but stand in awe. [21] For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. [22] Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off. [23] And even the others, if they do not persist in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again. [24] For if you have been cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these natural branches be grafted back into their own olive tree.

This is a remarkable confirmation of Catholic (and Arminian) soteriology. According to this passage, being a  Christian offers no further guarantee of absolute assurance of salvation than being Jewish did. People can still fall away, because people are people, and can rebel. The Jews were cut off, but St. Paul says they can be “grafted in” again.

The Calvinist might very well reply, “well, they never were saved, so, no problem.” Even if one took that position, the rub and important, relevant point here is that the Christian is no different, because they, too, can fall away. They are only secure “provided [they] continue in his kindness; otherwise [they] too will be cut off.” This makes no sense at all if a Christian can never fall away. Paul simply wouldn’t write this way. It would be nonsensical and absurd.

The great apostle also wrote: “Fight the good fight of the faith; take hold of the eternal life to which you were called” (1 Tim 6:12). The task is how to harmonize or synthesize the two strains of thought: the assurance of God, and the need for persons to be vigilant in matters of their own salvation (just as we see in this very verse).

The Catholic and Arminian can easily do so. The Calvinist cannot. Paul in 1 Timothy 6:11 is making an exhortation, not issuing a statement of metaphysical finality. He doesn’t say Timothy will inevitably do all these great things because he is saved, and it is therefore inevitable, etc.

Rather, he urges him to “shun all this; aim at righteousness, godliness, faith, love, steadfastness, gentleness.” (1 Tim 6:11) He has already stated shortly before that people can fall away from the faith. That is presupposed in this exhortation. The language of “take hold of” does not sound at all like it is something already accomplished. Paul even ends the letter with another warning (odd, if Timothy’s salvation is so irrevocably secure):

1 Timothy 6:20-21 O Timothy, guard what has been entrusted to you. Avoid the godless chatter and contradictions of what is falsely called knowledge, [21] for by professing it some have missed the mark as regards the faith. Grace be with you.

Why should Paul warn Timothy and mention people who had “missed the mark” if there was in reality no reason to make such a warning? He mentioned others who fell away near the beginning of the letter:

1 Timothy 1:19-20 holding faith and a good conscience. By rejecting conscience, certain persons have made shipwreck of their faith, [20] among them Hymenae’us and Alexander, whom I have delivered to Satan that they may learn not to blaspheme.

They had a faith to begin with, and shipwrecked it; but Paul believes it is still possible to be restored. We know this from a parallel instance in 1 Corinthians 5:3-5, where Paul commands the Corinthians to “deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.” Later, in 2 Corinthians 2:6-11, Paul urges that the man be restored to the fellowship.

Conclusion: even people who have made a shipwreck of their faith can be restored to the Christian life and status of Christian again. The warning to avoid falling away is often made in the New Testament. For example:

Hebrews 3:12-14 Take care, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God. [13] But exhort one another every day, as long as it is called “today,” that none of you may be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. [14] For we share in Christ, if only we hold our first confidence firm to the end,

Calvinists typically reply to this by citing passages that are literally irrelevant to the discussion of falling away, such as:

Hebrews 7:25 Consequently he is able for all time to save those who draw near to God through him, since he always lives to make intercession for them.

But who denies that our Lord Jesus Christ can save anyone who comes to Him? No Christian who knows anything at all about their faith does that. This is illustrative of the serious problem of many Calvinists in understanding and comprehending the Catholic and Arminian views. No one is saying that the elect fail to be saved. They will be. It can’t be otherwise, by definition.

But we don’t absolutely know whether we ourselves are among the elect. It is true that some people never were Christians at all, as 1 John 2:19 indicates. But that by no means explains a passage such as the following, from the preceding chapter:

Hebrews 6:4-6 For it is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, [5] and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, [6] if they then commit apostasy, since they crucify the Son of God on their own account and hold him up to contempt.

The elect are the elect and will be saved. Those who are predestined will go to heaven; of course. Catholics (and Arminians) don’t have the slightest disagreement with that. What the real and important issue is, is whether a person can be regenerate and justified and sanctified and indwelt with the Spirit, yet fall from God’s graces, and whether such a one can be restored.

At some level, the Calvinist or Baptist believer in eternal security has to deny this. Again and again they state that the ostensible apostate “never was saved.” The Catholic and Orthodox and Arminian affirm it, and the reason they do is seen in the many biblical evidences above, which cannot be ignored.

Indeed, a man can have a high moral assurance (through prayer and self-examination and knowledge of the Scriptures and Christian teaching) that he is right with God, so that if he died, he would be saved, but no more than that. We should concentrate on concerning ourselves with living a righteous life and trying not to sin (certainly a very strong biblical motif itself).

The knowledge we possess along these lines doesn’t reach the level of absolute knowledge: from our human perspective, which is all we have, since we have no revelation listing who is in the book of life and who isn’t.

Catholic theology and spirituality emphasizes the human effort of seeking to live a holy life, while not at all denying that God’s grace is the entire basis of anything good we do. From the human, limited (and Catholic) perspective, we do not possess “salvation” entirely until the day we die and face God at the Judgment and He declares one way or the other. It depends on whether we look at this from a human or divine perspective.

From God’s vantage-point it is quite different. The only way we could possibly say that someone “has eternal life” (presently) is to know whether they are of the elect or not. An elect person “has” it already. But Catholic, biblical theology always allow for the possibility of falling away (again, from our human perspective).

Whether a person committing a murder or adultery or other serious, mortal sin, has eternal life at the time they are doing those sins, is an absurd question from the Catholic perspective. They may be among the elect, and therefore will repent, as they must to be saved, but right then, from the purely human, temporal perspective, they are out of God’s will, not following Him, and not in possession of eternal life — as long as they remain in a state of mortal sin.

Catholics believe these are serious sins that separate a soul from God in some sense and to some degree analogous to how hell separates a soul from God. “First things first”: one must get right with God and cease sinning, and when they fall again, they must repent, get up and try to do better, with God’s help. Most of us will not attain to the infused righteousness necessary to enter heaven, and that is where purgatory (one of God’s greatest graces and mercies) comes in.

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2019-12-19T11:17:37-04:00

Dr. David Madison is an atheist who was a Methodist minister for nine years: with a Ph.D. in Biblical Studies from Boston University.  You can see (by the number in the title) how many times I have replied to his videos or articles. Thus far, I haven’t heard one peep back from him  (from 8-1-19 to this date). This certainly doesn’t suggest to me that he is very confident in his opinions. All I’ve seen is expressions of contempt from Dr. Madison and from his buddy, the atheist author, polemicist, and extraordinarily volatile John Loftus, who runs the ultra-insulting Debunking Christianity blog. Dr. Madison made his cramped, insulated mentality clear in a comment from 9-6-19:

[T]he burden of the apologist has become heavy indeed, and some don’t handle the anguish well. They vent and rage at critics, like toddlers throwing tantrums when a threadbare security blanket gets tossed out. We can smell their panic. Engaging with the ranters serves no purpose—any more than it does to engage with Flat-Earthers, Chemtrail conspiracy theorists, and those who argue that the moon landings were faked. . . . I prefer to engage with NON-obsessive-compulsive-hysterical Christians, those who have spotted rubbish in the Bible, and might already have one foot out the door.

John “you are an idiot!” Loftus even went to the length of changing his blog’s rules of engagement, so that he and Dr. Madison could avoid replying to yours truly, or even see notices of my replies (er, sorry, rants, rather).

This is one of the replies to Dr. Madison’s series, “Things we Wish Jesus Hadn’t Said” (podcast episodes 13-25). I have already replied to every previous episode. He states in his introduction to this second series:

[A]pologists (preachers and priests) who explain away—well, they try—the nasty and often grim message in many of the sayings attributed to Jesus. Indeed, the gospels are a minefield; many negatives about Jesus are in full view.

Dr. Madison’s episode 16 is entitled, “Jesus tells those present at his trial that they will see him coming on the clouds of heaven” (8-16-19).  I’ve already refuted this reasoning earlier in this series: “Dr. David Madison vs. Jesus #3: Nature & Time of 2nd Coming” (8-3-19). His episode 17 (to which I presently respond) is called, “Bad advice that Jesus gave in the Sermon on the Mount, Matthew 6:19-20 and 5:40 & 42” (8-19-19). Episode 18 (8-24-19) continues essentially the same flawed analysis, and so is also refuted below. Episode 19 (“Mark 2:1-12, Jesus heals a paralyzed man by forgiving his sins”), has already been rebutted by my paper, David Madison vs. the Gospel of Mark #3: Chapter 2 (Archaeological Support / Sin, Illness, Healing, & Faith / “Word” & “Gospel”). Since Dr. Madison has deliberately decided to ignore all my critiques, he taped his episode 19 exactly 17 days after I refuted all of its main contentions.

My patience is now exhausted with this series, and Dr. Madison is often merely spinning his wheels and regurgitating stale material that he has already presented, so I will end my critiques of this series with this post.

Dr. Madison’s words will be in blue.

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Matthew 5:40-42 (RSV) “and if any one would sue you and take your coat, let him have your cloak as well; [41] and if any one forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. [42] Give to him who begs from you, and do not refuse him who would borrow from you.”

Matthew 6:19-21 Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust consume and where thieves break in and steal, [20] but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust consumes and where thieves do not break in and steal. [21] For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.” [Dr. Madison ignores verse 21, which is the conclusion of the thought]

Is this advice you would give to young people starting out in life? Of course not. But in the mind of Jesus, or more correctly, in the mind of the cult propagandist who wrote the Gospels, there wasn’t going to be any such thing as starting out in life or saving for the future. The kingdom of God, with Jesus ruling and all governmental authorities removed, made no allowance for careers or saving for the future, or for the unfolding of 2000 more years of history, for that matter. It didn’t matter if you loaned money. It didn’t matter if you gave it all away to beggars.

The business about the supposed assumption that the world was gonna end soon was already dealt with in my past paper, mentioned above. Here I will address the subject matter of generosity, charity, benevolence, and opposition to materialism and excessive riches. The advice given is, of course, proverbial; hence it was not intended absolutely literally, as if it applied to every conceivable situation; any and all situations.

Jesus is cultivating a general unselfish way of life, a way of love and concern for other human beings. Then He makes the point that the eternal, spiritual things are more important than temporary earthly possessions. He does it by the typical Hebraic extreme contrast of one thing over against another.

To use an entirely “earthy” comparison, it would be like saying, “would you choose a very happy marriage that lasted five years, or an even happier marriage that lasted for a lifetime?” Anyone would choose the latter. Thus, Jesus draws a contrast between temporary material goods on earth, and “treasures” in heaven, that last forever, and are beyond the reach of either decay or theft. The preference is a no-brainer.

If there is a heaven, this makes eminent sense. The problem, of course, is that atheists like Dr. Madison don’t believe in heaven or any kind of afterlife. Obviously, then, such a concept is meaningless to him (and them). They just view it as what they deride as “pie in the sky.” But it’s perfectly reasonable if one accepts the premise (on many other reasonable grounds) that God exists and an eternal afterlife of bliss in heaven also awaits those who follow Him and accept His free offer of grace and salvation that is available to all human beings.

In any event, what is described in Matthew 5:40-42 is proverbial advice. Bob Deffinbaugh wrote an excellent article on the nature of biblical proverbial literature. Here are a few snippets:

Proverbs are highly compressed, carefully chosen words of wisdom. In the Bible, proverbs are found elsewhere than just in the Book of Proverbs. I cannot help but smile when I read the proverb Israel’s King Ahab cites to Ben Hadad, king of Syria. Ben Hadad had assembled his army and besieged the city of Samaria. He sent word to Ahab, conveying his demands, threatening to destroy Samaria if Ahab did not comply. Ahab sent Ben Hadad this response:

“Tell him the one who puts on his battle gear should not boast like one who is taking it off” (1 Kings 20:11).

We would have said, “Don’t count your chickens before they’re hatched.”

Proverbs may very well exist in every culture. We have many proverbs in our culture. Here are just a few:

“First things first.”
“A stitch in time saves nine.”
“Don’t cry over spilled milk.”
“Don’t throw the baby out with the bathwater.”
“Hind sight is better than foresight.”
“People who live in glass houses shouldn’t throw stones.”
“Don’t put all your eggs in one basket.”

Proverbs are words that are skillfully crafted to stick in our minds and to engage us in thought: . . .

Proverbs are not necessarily promises, but rather generalizations of what is commonly true. Generally speaking, those who work hard and are self-disciplined prosper, while those who are lazy and gluttonous become poor . . .

[W]e must be careful not to read any particular proverb as though it comes with an unconditional guarantee of being fulfilled.

See also, International Standard Bible Encyclopedia (“Proverb”). The key to understanding a proverb is to know that it is intended to be general advice, which admits of exceptions, according to situation. It’s not absolute in nature. It is not like asserting “2 + 2 = 4” or “the moon goes around the earth” or “The Empire State Building is in New York City.” It’s situational and prudential. A famous couplet from the book of Proverbs perfectly illustrates this:

Proverbs 26:4-5 Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest you be like him yourself. [5] Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own eyes.

I’ve often employed both pieces of advice in my own apologetics work. There is a time to answer a fool (as in fact I am doing right now), and a time not to, which brings to mind another famous Proverb from Ecclesiastes, which was the basis of a song by Pete Seeger, and a #1 hit song for the Byrds in 1965:

Ecclesiastes 3:1-8 For everything there is a season, and a time for every matter under heaven: [2] a time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up what is planted; [3] a time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up; [4] a time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and a time to dance; [5] a time to cast away stones, and a time to gather stones together; a time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing; [6] a time to seek, and a time to lose; a time to keep, and a time to cast away; [7] a time to rend, and a time to sew; a time to keep silence, and a time to speak; [8] a time to love, and a time to hate; a time for war, and a time for peace.

Jesus Himself proves that His advice in Matthew 5 is not absolute and to be applied in any and every situation, in His parable of the talents (Matthew 25:14-30; cf. Luke 19:11-26). It has been called a primitive description of capitalistic industriousness, in which He expressly sanctions investment with bankers, and the making of interest (Mt 25:27; Lk 19:23). In the parable the master is God, who agrees with the investment.

For Dr. Madison, who apparently cannot comprehend the nature of proverbial biblical literature, “in the mind of the cult propagandist who wrote the Gospels, there wasn’t going to be any such thing as starting out in life or saving for the future.” Wrong! Matthew 25 and Luke 19 show this to be a falsehood.

Moreover, Dr. Madison claims that Christians were not supposed to have the slightest concern about money or the practical necessities of responsible everyday life because they were allegedly taught that the world was gonna end very soon. Why is it, then, that in the introduction of the parable of the talents in Luke’s version, the narrator (Luke) expressly denies an imminent end of the world?: 

Luke 19:11 . . . he proceeded to tell a parable, because he was near to Jerusalem, and because they supposed that the kingdom of God was to appear immediately.

Dr. Madison thinks the Gospel writer “cult propagandists” were seeking to indoctrinate the gullible, stupid Christian cult members to think that the end of the world could and would occur in the next five minutes. Why, then, is the parable of the talents in two of these Gospels, and why is Luke 19:11 there: dead-set against the supposed nefarious goal and agenda? It makes no sense. Jesus Himself makes the same point: that the time of the end is not known, immediately preceding the Matthew version of the parable of the talents:

Matthew 25:13 Watch therefore, for you know neither the day nor the hour.

The parable of the ten virgins and their oil lamps, right before this portion of Matthew (Matthew 25:1-13) is making the same point: industrious preparedness and wise stewardship of the material possessions one has: the very opposite of “simply give to every beggar and take no thought of how to wisely provide for yourselves.” What one does depends on prudence and a given situation. That is biblical “wisdom”: expressed in a very specific literary idiom, with its own particular characteristics: the proverb or the parable.

So much for Dr. Madison’s imaginary nonsense and slop (for now the 42nd time!). He doesn’t have the slightest clue concerning what he is pontificating about. His atheism has made him thoroughly illogical and oblivious to facts and reason alike, when it comes to Anything Biblical. This is what extreme, fanatical bias and hostility do to an otherwise fairly rational and sensible mind.

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Unfortunately, Money Trees Do Not Exist: If you have been aided in any way by my work, or think it is valuable and worthwhile, please strongly consider financially supporting it (even $10 / month — a mere 33 cents a day — would be very helpful). I have been a full-time Catholic apologist since Dec. 2001, and have been writing Christian apologetics since 1981 (see my Resume). My work has been proven (by God’s grace alone) to be fruitful, in terms of changing lives (see the tangible evidences from unsolicited “testimonies”). I have to pay my bills like all of you: and have a (homeschooling) wife and three children still at home to provide for, and a mortgage to pay.
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Photo credit: The Parable of The Talents, by Willem de Poorter (1608-1668) [public domain / Wikimedia Commons]

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