February 9, 2018

“The executioner could not find the martyr’s heart, and the butchery with appalling cruelty was prolonged for nearly half an hour. After this the Puritans played football with his head.”

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[biographical information was obtained in most cases from Wikipedia and/or the Catholic Encyclopedia. The martyrs are listed chronologically by date of execution]

[See a gruesome description of the English punishment of being hanged, drawn, and quartered]

See related papers:

Total of all documented martyrs and heroic confessors for the Catholic faith, persecuted by English “head of the Church” royalty and its minions, in these four papers:

1375

Blessed Robert Grissold 

Born c. 1675. Layman. He refused the offer of freedom if he would attend Anglican services and was condemned for assisting Blessed John Sugar. Hanged at Warwick on 16 July, 1604. Going up the ladder he said to the people, “Bear witness, good people, that I die here not for theft, nor for felony, but for my conscience.” Then he forgave his persecutors and the hangman, made an act of contrition, and called on the name of Jesus. Lastly, he commended himself into the hands of Almighty God and was turned off the ladder.

Blessed John Sugar

Born 1562. Ordained in 1601. Hanged, drawn, and quartered at Warwick on 16 July, 1604. His head and quarters were set up on the gates of the city.

Venerable Lawrence Bailey

Layman. Executed on 16 September 1604 at Lancaster.

Venerable John Fulthering

Layman. Executed at York on 1 August 1605. See next entry.

Blessed Thomas Welbourne

Layman. Bishop Challoner wrote: “Thomas Welbourne was a school-master, . . . and John Fulthering was a layman of the same county, who being zealous Catholics, and industrious in exhorting some of their neighbours to embrace the Catholic faith, were upon that account arraigned and condemned to suffer as in cases of high treason” (II, 12). Executed at York on 1 August 1605.

Blessed William Brown

Layman. Executed at Ripon on 5 September 1605.

Blessed Ralph Ashley

Jesuit lay-brother. Arrested at Hindlip, near Worcester, in connection with the Gunpowder Plot, and committed to the Tower on 3 February 1606. He was terribly tortured, and the reticent answers and trembling signatures of Ashley’s extant confessions bear eloquent testimony to his constancy. He was hanged, drawn, and quartered on 7 April, 1606, giving an admirable example of heroically faithful service.

Blessed Edward Oldcorne

Ordained as a Jesuit in 1587. Condemned to death at Worcester for alleged complicity in the Gunpowder Plot, and executed on 7 April 1606.

Henry Garnet (or, Garnett)

Born c. 1554. Ordained as a Jesuit in 1575. Though he generally lived in London, the hotbed of persecution, neither he nor any of his subordinates, who often came to see him, were captured in his lodgings, though perilous adventures were numerous. The conclusion of Garnet’s life is closely connected to the Gunpowder Plot. After the plot had been discovered, and Garnet had been arrested, he thought it best in his peculiar circumstances to confess the whole truth about his knowledge, and for this he was tried and executed at the west end of Old St. Paul’s, 3 May, 1606.

St. Nicholas Owen

Born c. 1550. For several years he built hiding-places for priests in the homes of Catholic families. He was arrested in 1594, and was tortured, but revealed nothing. He continued his work, and is said to have contrived Fr. Gerard’s escape from the Tower of London in 1597. Early in 1606, Owen was arrested again in Worcestershire. Under English law, he was exempt from torture, as he had been maimed a few years previously, when a horse fell on him. Nevertheless, he was tortured on the rack until he died, having betrayed nothing. The exact date of his death is not known; some sources give 2 March, while others place his death on the 12 November 1606.

Blessed Robert Drury

Born 1567. Ordained as a priest and returned to England in 1593. King James I soon proved that he would not be satisfied with any purely civil allegiance. He thirsted for spiritual authority, and, with the assistance of an apostate Jesuit, a new oath of allegiance was drawn up, which in its subtlety was designed to trouble the conscience of Catholics and divide them on the lawfulness of taking it. It was imposed 5 July, 1606, and about this time Drury was arrested. He was condemned for his priesthood, but was offered his life if he would take the new oath. But he felt that his conscience would not permit him to take the oath, and he was executed at Tyburn, 26 February, 1607.

Blessed Mathew Flathers

Born c. 1580. Ordained 1606. He was brought to trial, under the statute of 27 Elizabeth, on the charge of receiving orders abroad, and condemned to death. By an act of unusual clemency, this sentence was commuted to banishment for life; but after a brief exile, the undaunted priest returned to England in order to fulfil his mission, and, after ministering for a short time to his oppressed coreligionists in Yorkshire was again apprehended. Brought to trial at York on the charge of being ordained abroad and exercising priestly functions in England, Flathers was offered his life on condition that he take the recently enacted Oath of Allegiance. On his refusal, he was condemned to death and taken to the common place of execution outside Micklegate Bar, York [21 March 1607]. The usual punishment of hanging, drawing, and quartering seems to have been carried out in a peculiarly brutal manner, and eyewitnesses relate how the tragic spectacle excited the commiseration of the crowds of Protestant spectators.

Blessed George Gervase

Born 1571. Ordained as Benedictine priest in 1603. Refusing to take the new oath of allegiance on account of its infringing on spiritual matters where Catholics were concerned, he was tried, convicted of the offense of merely being a priest, and was hanged, drawn, and quartered at Tyburn on 11 April 1608. 

St. Thomas Garnet

Born c. 1575. Because English colleges had been turned over to Protestants, English Catholics had to go to the continent for their education. Thomas, at age 17, was amongst the first students of Saint Omer’s Jesuit College in 1592. In September, 1607, he was sent back to England, but was arrested six weeks later by an apostate priest called Rouse. This was the time of King James’ controversy with Cardinal Bellarmine about the Oath of Allegiance. Garnet was offered his life if he would take the oath, but he steadfastly refused, and was executed at Tyburn [23 June 1608], protesting that he was “the happiest man this day alive”.

Nicholas Atkinson

Priest. Died in 1610.

Blessed Roger Cadwallador

Born 1568. Ordained as a priest in 1592. Arrested on Easter, 1610 and brought before the Bishop, Dr. Robert Bennet, who committed him to Hereford gaol where he was loaded with irons night and day. On being transferred to Leominster gaol he was treated with the greatest inhumanity. He was condemned, merely for being a priest, some months before he suffered. A very full account of his sufferings in prison and of his martyrdom is given by Challoner. He hung very long, suffering great pain, owing to the unskilfulness of the hangman, and was eventually cut down and butchered alive at Leominster, on 27 August 1610.

Blessed George Napper (or, Napier)

Born 1550. By December, 1580, he had been imprisoned. He was still in the Wood Street Counter, London, on 30 September, 1588; but was liberated in June, 1589, on acknowledging the royal supremacy. Ordained by 1603. He was arrested at Kirtlington, four miles from Woodstock, on 19 July, 1610. As late as 2 November it was believed that he would have his sentence commuted to one of banishment. As he refused the oath of allegiance, which described the papal deposing power as a “false, damnable, and heretical” doctrine, it was decided to execute him, and so he was hanged, drawn, and quartered on 9 November 1610 at Oxford, England and his body parts hung on the city gates as warnings to other Catholics.

St. John Roberts

Born c. 1576. Ordained as a Benedictine priest in 1602. He was captured on 2 December 1610; the arresting men arrived just as he was concluding Mass and took him to Newgate in his vestments. On 5 December he was tried and found guilty under the Act forbidding priests to minister in England, and on 10 December 1610 was hanged, drawn, and quartered at Tyburn.

Blessed Thomas Somers (or, Sommers)

Priest and schoolmaster. Hanged, drawn, and quartered on 10 December 1610 at Tyburn.

Blessed Maurus (or, William) Scott (or, Scot)

Born c. 1579. Benedictine priest (ordained in 1510). He had been firmly of the position that Catholicism and its claims were both false and treasonable, however, while visiting a Catholic friend, he began casually flicking through a book of theology and was struck by the force of an argument he read there. This caused him to enter into a period of intensive study and prayer, and it was only after two years of intellectual and spiritual struggle that he finally decided to be received into the Catholic Church. He was executed on May 30th 1612. He appeared wearing his Benedictine habit and declared himself once again a loyal subject of the King, before being tied to a horse and dragged through the streets to the gallows at Tyburn. Before being executed, he made a declaration of his life, his faith and his conversion to the Catholic Church, and gave the small number of gold coins he had in his purse to the executioner, saying, “Take these, friend, for love of me. I give them to you with good will and gladly do I forgive you my death”. He was then hanged, drawn and quartered.

Blessed Richard Newport

Ordained in 1597. Hanged, drawn and quartered at Tyburn on May 30th 1612.

St. John Almond 

Ordained in 1598 and returned to the dangers of England in 1602 as a secular priest. He was arrested in 1608, and then again in 1612. In November of that year seven priests had escaped from prison, and this may have sharpened the zeal of the persecutors. He displayed to the last a great acuteness in argument, and died with the Holy Name upon his lips. He was hanged, drawn, and quartered on 5 December 1612 at Tyburn, London.

John Mawson

Layman. Died in 1614.

Robert Edmonds 

Benedictine. Died in prison in 1615.

St. John Ogilvie

[Scottish] Ogilvie, the son of a wealthy laird, was born in 1579 into a respected Calvinist family near Keith in Banffshire, Scotland and was educated in mainland Europe where he attended a number of Catholic educational establishments, and decided to become a Catholic. Ordained as a Jesuit in 1610. After ordination he made repeated entreaties to be sent back to Scotland to minister to the few remaining Catholics in the Glasgow area (after the Scottish Reformation in 1560 it had become illegal to preach, proselytise for or otherwise endorse Catholicism). He returned to Scotland in November 1613 disguised as a soldier, and began to preach in secret, celebrating mass clandestinely in private homes. However, his ministry was to last less than a year. In 1614, he was betrayed and arrested in Glasgow and taken to jail in Paisley. He suffered terrible tortures, including being kept awake for eight days and nine nights, in an attempt to make him divulge the identities of other Catholics. Nonetheless, Ogilvie did not relent. Consequently, after a biased trial, he was convicted of high treason for refusing to accept the King’s spiritual jurisdiction. On 10th March 1615, aged 36 years, John Ogilvie was paraded through the streets of Glasgow and hanged at Glasgow Cross.

His last words were “If there be here any hidden Catholics, let them pray for me but the prayers of heretics I will not have”. After he was pushed from the ladder, he threw his concealed rosary beads out into the crowd. The tale is told that one of his enemies caught them and subsequently became a lifelong devout Catholic. After his execution Ogilvie’s followers were rounded up and put in jail. They suffered heavy fines, but none was to receive the death penalty. He is the only post-Reformation saint from Scotland.

Christopher Dixon

Priest (O.S.A.). Executed in 1616.

Venerable Cuthbert Tunstall 

Priest. Died in 1616.

Blessed Thomas Atkinson

Born c. 1546. Priest. Served in England from 1588 until his martyrdom 28 years later. Hanged, drawn, and quartered on 11 March 1616 at age 70. He suffered “with wonderful patience, courage, and constancy, and signs of great comfort”.

Blessed John Thulis (or, Thouless)

Born c. 1568. Ordained in 1592. Hanged, drawn, and quartered at Lancaster, 18 March, 1616. He was imprisoned with thieves, four of whom he converted. These were executed with the martyrs. His quarters were set up at Lancaster, Preston, Wigan, and Warrington.

Blessed Roger Wrenno 

Born c. 1576. Layman. Executed at Lancaster, 18 March, 1616. When Wrenno was being hanged, the rope broke, and he was once more offered his life for conformity, but ran swiftly to the ladder and climbed it as fast as he could, saying to the sheriff, “If you had seen that which I have just now seen, you would be as much in haste to die as I am now.”

Blessed Thomas Maxfield

Born c. 1590. Ordained in 1614. 1 July 1616 at Tyburn. Within three months of landing in England in 1615 he was arrested, and sent to the Gatehouse, Westminster. After about eight months’ imprisonment, he tried to escape by a rope let down from the window in his cell, but was captured on reaching the ground. This was in June, 1616. For seventy hours he was placed in the stocks in a filthy dungeon at the Gatehouse, and was then on Monday night (17 June) removed to Newgate, where he was set amongst the worst criminals, two of whom he converted. On Wednesday, 26 June, he was brought to the bar at the Old Bailey, and the next day was condemned solely for being a priest, under 27 Eliz., c, 2. The Spanish ambassador did his best to obtain a pardon, or at least a reprieve; but, finding his efforts unavailing, had solemn exposition of the Blessed Sacrament in his chapel during the martyr’s last night on earth. The procession to Tyburn early on the following morning [1 July 1616] was joined by many devout Spaniards, who, in spite of insults and mockery, persisted in forming a guard of honour for the martyr. Tyburn-tree itself was found decorated with garlands, and the ground round about strewn with sweet herbs. The sheriff ordered the martyr to be cut down alive, but popular feeling was too strong, and the disembowelling did not take place till he was quite senseless.

Blessed Thomas Tunstall

Ordained by 1610. On reaching England he was almost immediately apprehended and spent four or five years in various prisons till he succeeded in escaping from Wisbech Castle. He made his way to a friend’s house near Lynn, where is was recaptured and committed to Norwich Gaol. At the next assizes he was tried and condemned (12 July, 1616). He was executed at Norwich on 13 July 1616. The saintliness of his demeanor on the scaffold produced a profound impression on the people.

Blessed William Southerne 

Born c. 1579. Priest. Executed at Newcastle-under-Lyme, 30 April, 1618.

St. Edmund Arrowsmith

(Portrait above). Born 1585. His family was constantly harassed for its adherence to Roman Catholism, and in 1605 Edmund left England and went to Douai to study for the priesthood. He was ordained in 1611 and sent on the English mission the following year. He ministered to the Catholics of Lancashire without incident until about 1622, when he was arrested and questioned by the Protestant bishop of Chester. Edmund was released when King James I of England ordered all arrested priests be freed, joined the Jesuits in 1624 and in 1628 was arrested when betrayed by a young man. He was convicted of being a Catholic priest and sleeping with the king. He was sentenced to death, and hanged, drawn and quartered at Lancaster on August 28th 1628. Brought to execution, he prayed for everyone in the kingdom, then said, “Be witnesses with me that I die a constant Roman Catholic and for Christ’s sake; let my death be an encouragement to your going forward in the Catholic religion.”

Blessed Richard Hurst (or, Herst)

Layman. Hurst was indicted on a trumped-up murder charge. Through Hurst’s friends a petition was sent to King Charles I, which petition was also supported by Queen Henrietta Maria. But the Government was successful in procuring the judicial murder of Hurst, by grossly tampering with the very palladium of English liberties. The jury were unwilling to convict; but the foreman of the jury was actually told by the judge, in the house of the latter, that the Government was determined to get a conviction, that a foul murder had been committed, and that the jury must bring in a verdict of guilty. Hurst was accordingly convicted and sentenced to death; on the next day, being commanded to hear a sermon at the Protestant church, he refused and was dragged by the legs for some distance along a rough road to the church, where he, however, put his fingers in his ears so as not to hear the sermon. At the gallows he was informed that his life would be spared if he would swear allegiance to the king, but as the oath contained passages attacking the Catholic Faith he refused and was at once executed [on August 28 or 29, 1628].

Thomas Dyer

Benedictine. Died sometime between 1618 and 1630.

John Gerard

Jesuit. Died in 1637.

Richard Bradley 

Born 1605. Jesuit. Seized, imprisoned, but died before trial at Manchester, 20 January 1640.

Thomas Preston (or, Roger Widdrington)

Benedictine. Spent many years in prison and died in the Clink prison, 5 April, 1640.

Laurence Mabbs 

Benedictine. Died in a prison in 1641.

Blessed William Ward (or, Webster)

Born c. 1560. Ordained in 1608. Imprisoned for three years in Scotland. On obtaining his liberty he came to England where he laboured for thirty years, twenty of which he spent in various prisons as a confessor for the Faith. He was in London when Parliament issued the proclamation of 7 April, 1641, banishing all priests under pain of death, but refused to retire, and on 15 July was arrested in the house of his nephew. Six days later he was brought to trial at the Old Bailey and was condemned on 23 July. He was hanged, drawn, and quartered at Tyburn, 15 or 26 July, 1641, uttering the words, “Jesus, Jesus, Jesus, receive my soul!”

St. Ambrose (Edward) Barlow

Born 1585. Until 1607 he adhered to the Anglican church, but then turned to the Catholic church. Barlow was educated at the Benedictine monastery of St. Gregory in Douai, France, and entered the English College in Valladolid, Spain, on September 20, 1610. He later returned to Douai where his elder brother (William) Rudesind Barlow was a professed monk. Barlow also professed in 1614 and was ordained a priest in 1617. After his ordination to the priesthood in Douai, Barlow was sent to England on the mission in South Lancashire. Pursued by anti-Catholic mobs and Anglican officials, Barlow was imprisoned at least five times for his proselytization. He was caught for the fifth and final time on Easter Sunday, 25 April 1641 and was arrested by the Vicar of Eccles. He was paraded at the head of his parishioners, dressed in his surplice, and was followed by some 400 men armed with clubs and swords. Although he had been preaching at the time of his apprehension, and could possibly have escaped in the confusion, he voluntarily yielded himself to his enemies. He was taken to Lancaster Castle and, after four months’ imprisonment, was tried on September 6th or 7th, and sentenced the following day after confessing to being a Catholic priest. On Friday September 10 [1641] he was hanged, drawn and quartered at Lancaster.

Francis Quashet

Priest. Died in a London prison in 1642.

John Hammond (or, Jackson)

Layman. Died in a London prison in 1642.

Edward Wilkes

Priest. Died in York Castle before execution, in 1642.

Blessed Thomas Green (or, Reynolds)

Born c. 1562. Ordained in 1592. Spent 14 years in prison. He was hanged, drawn, and quartered on 21 January 1642 at Tyburn at age 80, amidst great demonstrations of popular sympathy.

St. Alban (or Bartholomew) Roe

Born c. 1583. Benedictine priest and convert. He was imprisoned twice, for a total of 22 years, meeting his end at Tyburn, where he died by hanging, drawing and quartering on 21 January 1642, amidst great demonstrations of popular sympathy.

Blessed Edward Catherick (or, Huddleston) 

Born c. 1605. Ordained c. 1635. Catherick was dragged through the streets of York on a hurdle to the place of execution and hanged, drawn, and quartered on 13 April 1642. His head was placed on Micklegate Bar, and what fragments remained, after the hangman’s butchery, were buried at Toft Green.

Blessed John Lockwood

Born 1561. Ordained in 1597. He was dragged through the streets of York on a hurdle to the place of execution and hanged, drawn, and quartered at age 81 on 13 April 1642.

Venerable Edward Morgan

Welsh. Ordained c. 1621. He seems to have laboured in his fatherland, and in April, 1629, was in prison in Flintshire, for refusing the oath of allegiance. Later about 1632 he was condemned in the Star Chamber to have his ears nailed to the pillory for having accused certain judges of treason. Immediately afterwards he was committed to the Fleet Prison in London, where he remained until a few days before his execution at Tyburn, on 26 April, 1642.

Blessed Hugh Green

Born c. 1584. Convert. Ordained in 1612. On 8 March, 1641, Charles I, to placate the Puritan Parliament, issued a proclamation banishing all priests from England, and Green resolved to obey this order. Unfortunately the news had been late in reaching him, and when he embarked the month of grace given for departure was just over. He was therefore arrested, tried, and condemned to death in August. Hanged, drawn, and quartered in Dorchester on 19 August, 1642. As the executioner was quite unskilled, he could not find the martyr’s heart, and the butchery with appalling cruelty was prolonged for nearly half an hour. After this the Puritans played football with his head, a barbarity happily not repeated in the history of the English martyrs.

Blessed Thomas Bullaker

Born c. 1604. Ordained Franciscan priest in 1628. On the 11th of September, 1642, Bullaker was seized while celebrating the Holy Sacrifice in the house of the pious benefactress. He was condemned to be drawn on a hurdle to Tyburn and there hanged, cut down alive, quartered and beheaded [carried out at Tyburn on 12 October 1642].

Blessed Thomas Holland

Born in 1600. Ordained as a Jesuit in 1624. He was arrested on suspicion in a London street 4 Oct., 1642, and committed to the New Prison. He was afterwards transferred to Newgate, and arraigned at the Old Bailey, 7 December, for being a priest. There was no conclusive evidence as to this; but as he refused to swear he was not, the jury found him guilty, to the indignation of the Lord Mayor, Sir Isaac Pennington, and another member of the bench named Garroway. On his return to prison great multitudes resorted to him, and he heard many confessions. He was executed at Tyburn, on 12 December, 1642. There he was allowed to make a considerable speech and to say many prayers, and when the cart was turned away, he was left to hang till he was dead.

Placid Peto

Benedictine. Died in prison in 1642 or 1643.

Blessed Henry Heath

Born 1599. Franciscan priest. He was indicted under the 1585 “Act against Jesuits, Seminary priests and other such like disobedient persons” (27 Eliz. c. 2) for being a priest and present in the realm of Queen Elizabeth. While imprisoned at Tyburn he reconciled in the very cart one of the criminals that were executed with him [on 17 April 1643]. He was allowed to hang until he was dead.

Venerable Brian Cansfield

Jesuit. Executed on 3 August 1643 at York Castle.

Blessed Arthur Bell

Born 1590. Franciscan priest. In 1637 he returned to England, where he laboured until November 1643, when he was apprehended as a spy by the parliamentary troops at Stevenage in Hertfordshire and committed to the Newgate prison. The circumstances of his trial show Bell’s devotedness to the cause of the Catholic faith and his willingness to suffer for the faith. When condemned to be drawn and quartered it is said that he broke forth into a solemn Te Deum and thanked his judges profusely for the favour they were conferring upon him in allowing him to die for Christ. Executed in London on 11 December 1643.

William Middleton (or, Heathcote) 

Benedictine. Died in prison in 1644.

Venerable Richard Price

Colonel. Executed on 7 May 1644 in Lincoln.

Idlephonse Hesketh (or, William Hanson) 

Benedictine. O.S.B. Died as a result of the persecution of Puritan soldiers in Yorkshire, around July 1644.

Boniface Kempe (or, Francis Kipton)

Died as a result of the persecution of Puritan soldiers in Yorkshire, around July 1644.

Blessed Ralph Corbie (or, Corby, or, Corbin, or, Corbington)

Born 1598. Ordained as a Jesuit, c. 1626. His imprisonment at Newgate was characterized by cheerfulness and sanctity. Hanged, drawn, and quartered at Tyburn in London on September 7, 1644.

Blessed John Duckett

Born 1603. Convert. Ordained in 1639. His imprisonment was characterized by cheerfulness and sanctity. Hanged, drawn, and quartered at Tyburn in London on September 7, 1644.

Walter Coleman

Franciscan. Died in prison in 1645.

St. Henry Morse

Born 1595. He converted to Catholicism, studied for the priesthood in Rome and joined the Jesuits in 1626. Worked as a covert priest in London, and among plague victims in 1636, he caught the plague himself but recovered from it. Betrayed to the authorities by an informer, he was briefly imprisoned in 1638. He ministered to people around the countryside of southern England for years. He was arrested and convicted for practising as a Catholic priest and hanged, drawn, and quartered on 1 February 1645 at Tyburn, London.

John Felton

Jesuit. He was seized and so badly used that, when released (for no one appeared against him) he died within a month, 17 February, 1645.

Venerable John Goodman

Welsh. Born in 1590. Ordained as a Protestant minister but converted and ordained as a priest in 1624. He worked with unremitting zeal for some years, was twice apprehended and twice released. Once more a prisoner in 1642, he was brought to trial and condemned to death, but at the queen’s intercession was reprieved. When this act of Clemency on the part of Charles I excited the anger of Parliament, Goodman, with great magnanimity, protested his unwillingness to be a cause of dissension between Charles and his subjects, and begged that he might be sacrificed to appease the popular displeasure. This heroic act of generosity made a considerable sensation, and probably suggested to Wentworth, Lord Strafford, the idea of doing the same. Goodman, however, was left to languish in Newgate, but the hardships soon put an end to his life on Good Friday, 8 April 1645.

Blessed Philip Powel

Born 1594. Ordained as a Benedictine in 1618. He was captured on 22 February, 1646 and denounced as a priest. On 11 May he was ordered to London by the Earl of Warwick, and confined in St. Catherine’s Gaol, Southwark, where the harsh treatment he received brought on a severe attack of pleurisy. His trial, which had been fixed for 30 May, did not take place till 9 June, at Westminster Hall. He was found guilty and was hanged, drawn, and quartered at Tyburn on 30 June, 1646.

Blessed Edward Bamber

Priest. Arrested for a third time, he was committed to Lancaster Castle, where he remained in close confinement for three years, once escaping, but recaptured. Executed at Lancaster 7 August, 1646. He suffered with great constancy, reconciling to the Church a felon executed with him, and encouraging his fellow-martyrs to die bravely. His conduct so enraged the persecutors that they urged the executioner to butcher him in a more than usually cruel and savage manner.

Blessed Thomas Whitaker 

Born 1614. Ordained in 1638. He was committed to Lancaster Castle, 7 August, 1643, being treated with unusual severity and undergoing solitary confinement for six weeks. For three years he remained in prison, remarkable for his spirit of continual prayer and charity to his fellow-captives. Before his trial he made a month’s retreat in preparation for death. Though naturally timorous, and suffering much from the anticipation of his execution, he steadfastly declined all attempts made to induce him to conform to Anglicanism by the offer of his life, saying to the sheriff: “Use your pleasure with me, a reprieve or even a pardon upon your conditions I utterly refuse”. He was executed at Lancaster, 7 August, 1646.

Blessed John Woodcock

Converted to Catholicism in 1622. Ordained as a Franciscan priest in 1631. On 7 August 1646, in an attempted execution at Lancaster, he was flung off a ladder, but the rope broke. He was then hanged a second time, was cut down and disemboweled alive.

Thomas Foster (or, Forster) 

Jesuit. Died in prison in 1648.

Matthew Brazier (or, Grimes)

Jesuit. Died in prison in 1650.

Robert Cox

Benedictine. Died at the Clink Prison, 1650.

Edmund Cannon
Andrew Fryer (or, Herne, or Richmond)

Priests. Died in London prisons between 1640-1651.

James Brown

Benedictine. Died in prison between 1640-1651.

Blessed Peter Wright

Born 1603. Jesuit priest; ordained in 1636. Wright was condemned under the statute 27 Eliz., c. 2. for being a Catholic priest in England and sentenced on Saturday May 17 to being hanged, drawn and quartered. His execution at Tyburn, London on a hot Whit Monday, May 19, 1651, took place before over twenty thousand spectators. In the period of the trial and the days after his execution, Wright was if not popular, at least a respected figure in public opinion. The sheriff’s officers also seem to have been relatively well disposed to him and he was allowed to hang until he was dead, being thus spared the agonies of being eviscerated alive.

St. John Southworth

(Portrait above) Born 1592. Fr. John Southworth came from a Lancashire family that chose to pay heavy fines rather than give up the Catholic faith. He was arrested under the Interregnum and was tried at the Old Bailey under Elizabethan anti-priest legislation. He pleaded guilty to exercising the priesthood and was sentenced to be hanged, drawn and quartered. At his execution at Tyburn, on 28 June 1654, he was not “drawn and quartered” as sentenced.

Thomas Horsley

Layman. Died in a York prison in 1677.

Blessed Edward Coleman

Layman and convert. He became a suspected character, and on the discovery of the Titus Oates Plot, conceived in 1678 for the ruin of the Duke of York whose Catholicity was suspected Coleman was named as one of the conspirators. Conscious of his innocence he took no steps to protect himself, allowed his papers to be seized, and gave himself up for examination. He was tried 28 Nov., 1678, being accused of corresponding with foreign powers for the subversion of the Protestant religion, and of consenting to a resolution to murder the king. His defense was that he had only endeavoured to procure liberty of conscience for Catholics constitutionally through Parliament, and had sought money abroad to further this object. He denied absolutely any complicity with the plot against the king’s life. His foreign correspondence of 1675 and 1676, when examined, proved him to be an intriguer, but contained nothing that could connect him in any way with designs on the king’s life. However, in spite of the flagrantly false testimony of Oates and Bedloe, he was found guilty, drawn to Tyburn, and there executed, on 3 December, 1678.

Venerable Edward Mico

Jesuit. Died or was executed in Newgate prison on 3 December, 1678.

Venerable Thomas Beddingfield (or, Bedingfield)

Died or was executed on 21 December, 1678, in Gatehouse prison.

Placid Aldham (or, John Adland)

Benedictine and convert. Chaplain to Queen Catherine of Braganza. Died under sentence in 1679.

Robert Green
Lawrence Hill 

Laymen. Died in 1679.

William Lloyd

Died under sentence of death, Brecknock, 1679.

Blessed John Grove

Layman. Executed at Tyburn, on 24 January, 1679, saying: “We are innocent, we lose our lives wrongfully, we pray God to forgive them that are the causes of it.”

Blessed William Ireland

Born in 1636. Ordained as a Jesuit in 1673. Found guilty in a kangaroo court and executed at Tyburn, on 24 January, 1679.

Venerable Francis Nevil

Jesuit. Died in February 1679, in Stafford jail.

Venerable Francis Levinson (or, Levison)

Franciscan. Died on 11 February, 1679, in prison.

Blessed Thomas Pickering

Born c. 1621. Lay Benedictine. In 1678, Titus Oates made claims of Catholic plots against the King’s life, and Pickering was accused of being part of this conspiracy. No evidence except Oates’s word was produced and Pickering’s innocence was so obvious that the Queen publicly announced her belief in him, saying that she could not accept that he was a risk to the royal family: “I should have more fear to be alone in my chamber with a mouse”. Nonetheless, the jury found him guilty. The king was divided between the wish to save the innocent men and fear of the popular clamour. However, on 26 April 1679, the House of Commons petitioned for Pickering’s execution. Charles yielded, and on 9 May 1679, Pickering was hanged, drawn and quartered at Tyburn.

Blessed John Fenwick

Ordained as a Jesuit in 1656. Hanged, drawn, and quartered on 20 June 1679 at Tyburn.

Blessed John Gavan (or, Green)

Born 1640. Jesuit. Hanged, drawn, and quartered on 20 June 1679 at Tyburn.
Blessed William Harcourt (or, Barrows)

Jesuit. Hanged, drawn, and quartered at Tyburn on 20 June, 1679.

Blessed Anthony Turner

Convert. Ordained as a Jesuit in 1661. Arrested in the Titus Oates Plot, he was convicted of treason based on perjured evidence; one of the trial rules was that no Catholic could be believed in court. Hanged, drawn, and quartered at Tyburn on 20 June, 1679.

Blessed Thomas Whitbread

Born in 1618. Jesuit priest. He refused to admit Titus Oates as member of the Society of Jesus, and shortly afterwards the celebrated plot was fabricated. Father Whitbread was arrested in London on Michaelmas Day, 1678, but was so ill that he could not be moved to Newgate till three months later. He was first indicted at the Old Bailey, 17 December, 1678, but, the evidence against him and his companions breaking down, he was remanded and kept in prison till 13 June, 1679; later, he was again indicted, and with four other fathers was found guilty on the perjured evidence of Oates, Bedloe, and Dugdale and hanged, drawn, and quartered at Tyburn on 20 June, 1679.

Blessed Richard Langhorne

Born c. 1635. Layman. He was arrested on 15 June, 1667, in connection with the great fire. Arrested a second time on 7 October, 1678, and committed to Newgate without any previous examination, he was kept in solitary confinement for eight months. On 14 June, 1679, he was brought to the bar at the Old Bailey; Oates, Dugdale, Bedloe, and Prance gave evidence against him, and he was found guilty. He was offered a pardon, if he would confess his guilt and also make a disclosure of the property of the Jesuits with which he had become acquainted in his professional capacity. This last he did — probably with the consent of his fellow-prisoner, the provincial, Fr. Whitbread — but, as he persisted in declaring his ignorance of any conspiracy, he was executed at at Tyburn, on 14 July, 1679. His last words were to the hangman: “I am desirous to be with my Jesus. I am ready and you need stay no longer for me.”

St. William John Plessington

Born c. 1637. he was ordained in Segovia on 25 March 1662. He returned to England in 1663 ministering to covert Catholics in the areas of Holywell and Cheshire. He was imprisoned for two months, and then hanged, drawn and quartered for the crime of being a Catholic priest, on 19 July 1679. From the scaffold at Gallow’s Hill in Boughton, Cheshire he spoke the following:

But I know it will be said that a priest ordained by authority derived from the See of Rome is, by the Law of the Nation, to die as a Traitor, but if that be so what must become of all the Clergymen of the Church of England, for the first Protestant Bishops had their Ordination from those of the Church of Rome, or not at all, as appears by their own writers so that Ordination comes derivatively from those now living.

St. Philip Evans

Born 1645. He joined the Society of Jesus, 7 September 1665, and was ordained at Liege and sent to South Wales as a missionary in 1675. In November 1678 a John Arnold, of Llanvihangel Court near Abergavenny, a justice of the peace and hunter of priests, offered a reward of £200 (an enormous sum then) for his arrest. Despite the manifest dangers Father Evans steadfastly refused to leave his flock. He was charged with being a priest and coming into the principality of Wales contrary to the provisions of the law. The execution took place in Gallows Field, Cardiff on 22 July 1679.

St. John Lloyd

Father John Lloyd, a Welshman and a secular priest (ie, a priest not associated with any order) was a Breconshire man, who had taken the missionary oath at Valladolid in 1649 and had been sent to minister in his own country. He was charged with being a priest and coming into the principality of Wales contrary to the provisions of the law. The execution took place in Gallows Field, Cardiff on 22 July 1679.

Blessed Nicholas Postgate

Born c. 1597. Ordained in 1628. Hanged, drawn, and quartered at York, 7 August 1679.

Blessed Charles Meehan (or, O’Meighan, or, Mahoney)

Born c. 1640. Irish Franciscan (ordained in 1671). On the way to Ireland from Rome, his ship was wrecked off the coast of Wales in a storm in 1678. Charles was able to swim ashore with some of his belongings, coming upon land near Milford Haven in Wales. He was arrested, while traveling North on foot, in an effort to find a ship heading for Ireland. His offense was that he did not speak the Welsh language. During his questioning it became known that Charles was a Catholic priest. He was therefore handed over to a cruel man named William Shaw, who beat him and spit upon him, saying “say Mass for us priest.” Charles escaped for a short time but was recaptured. Upon his return, he was treated even more brutally. Eventually, he was tried for treason. There was little reason to punish Charles further, but the Welsh court found him guilty. On August 12, 1679, Charles was taken from his prison cell, and tied to a wooden sled so that he could be dragged outside the town by a horse. There (in Ruthin, North Wales) he was hanged, and drawn and quartered. His last words were a prophesy of King Charles II’s conversion to Catholicism. “Now Almighty God is pleased I should suffer this martyrdom. His Holy Name be praised since I die for my religion . . . God forgive you, for I do and I shall always pray for you, especially for those who were good to me in my distress. I pray God to bless our King, Charles, and defend him from his enemies and convert him to the Holy Catholic Faith. Amen.” King Charles II was received into the Catholic church on his death bed on the 6th of February, 1685.

St. John Kemble

Born 1599. Kemble was ordained a priest at Douai College, on 23 February 1625. He returned to England on 4 June 1625 as a missioner in Monmouthshire and Herefordshire. Little is known of his work caring for the sustenance of his flock for the next fifty three years. The conditions for Catholics had eased from the ferocious persecution of the Elizabethan period, but the priest performed his ministry discreetly. Father Kemble was staying at his brother’s home, Pembridge Castle, near Welsh Newton, when he was arrested. He was warned about the impending arrest but declined to leave his flock, saying, “According to the course of nature, I have but a few years to live. It will be an advantage to suffer for my religion and, therefore, I will not abscond.” He was arrested by a Captain John Scudamore of Kentchurch. It is a comment on the tangled loyalties of the age that Scudamore’s own wife and children were parishioners of Father Kemble. Father Kemble, now 80, was taken on the arduous journey to London to be interviewed [and] was found guilty of the treasonous crime of being a priest. He was sentenced to death, with the punishment for this being hanged, drawn and quartered [on 22 August 1679]. Before his death Father Kemble addressed the assembled crowd: “I die only for profession the Roman Catholic religion, which was the religion that first made this Kingdom Christian.” Kemble was allowed to die on the gallows before drawn and quartered, thus he was spared the agonies suffered by so many of the other martyrs. Miracles were soon attributed to the saintly priest. Scudamore’s daughter was cured of throat cancer, while Scudamore’s wife recovered her hearing whilst praying at the Kemble’s grave.

St. John Wall

Born 1620. Ordained as a priest on 3 December, 1645. He was declared innocent of all plotting and offered his life if he would abjure his religion. Brought back to Worcester, he was executed at Redhill on 22 August 1679.

St. David Lewis

Born 1616. At sixteen years of age, while visiting Paris, he converted to Catholicism and subsequently went to study in Rome, where in 1642 he was ordained as a Catholic priest. Three years later, he became a Jesuit. In 1647 he returned home and, for over thirty years, worked in South Wales. He was arrested in November 1678, at Llantarnam in Monmouthshire, and condemned as a Roman Catholic priest and for saying Catholic masses, at the Assizes in Monmouth in March 1679. He was brought to the bar on a charge of High Treason – for having become a Catholic priest and then remaining in England. He was finally brought back to Usk in Monmouthshire for his execution, and was hanged, drawn, and quartered on 27 August 1679. After the Titus Oates affair (1679–80), the remaining Welsh-speaking Catholic clergy were either executed or exiled.

Thomas Jennison 

Jesuit. Died after twelve months’ imprisonment, 27 September, 1679. He had renounced a handsome inheritance in favour of his brother, who, nevertheless, having apostatized, turned king’s evidence against him.

David Joseph Kemys (or, Kemeys)

Dominican. Died in prison in 1679 or 1680.

Richard Birkett 

Priest. Died in 1680 under sentence in Lancaster Castle.

Richard Gerard 

Layman. Died in 1680.

John Penketh

Jesuit. Died in prison in 1680.

Richard Lacey

Jesuit. Died in Newgate prison, 11 March, 1680.

Blessed Thomas Thwing

Born in 1635. Ordained in 1665. On October 23, 1680 Thomas Thwing was drawn from York Castle to the place of execution. He was the last of the “”seminary priests”” to be martyred for his faith in England.

Blessed William Howard

Born 1614. On 25 October, 1678, he was committed to the Tower, and it was more than a year before it was decided to try him. Then the resolution was taken so suddenly that he had little time to prepare. The trial, before the House of Lords, lasted from 30 November to 7 December, and no attempt was made to appraise the perjuries of Oates, Dugdale, and Tuberville, and the viscount was of course condemned by 55 votes to 31. It is sad to read that all his kinsmen but one voted against him. His last letters and speeches are marked by a quiet dignity and a simple heroism, which give us a high idea of his character. He was beheaded on Tower-Hill, London, on 29 December, 1680.

William Allison 

Priest. Died in York Castle, 1681.

Thomas Molineux 

Jesuit. Died in 1681.

William Atkins

Jesuit. Condemned at Stafford, was too deaf to hear the sentence. When it was shouted in his ear he turned and thanked the judge; he was reprieved and died in bonds, 7 March, 1681.

Edward Turner

Jesuit. Died on 19 March, 1681, in Gatehouse prison.

St. Oliver Plunkett

Irish. Born at Loughcrew near Oldcastle, County Meath, Ireland, 1629. Archbishop of Armagh and Primate of all Ireland, his is the brightest name in the Irish Church throughout the whole period of persecution. Plunket lingered for some time in London, using his influence to mitigate the rigour of the administration of the anti-Catholic laws in Ireland, and it was only in the middle of March, 1670, that he entered on his apostolate in Armagh. From the very outset he was most zealous in the exercise of the sacred ministry. Within three months he had administered the Sacrament of Confirmation to about 10,000 of the faithful, some of them being sixty years old, and, writing to Rome in December, 1673, he was able to announce that “during the past four years”, he had confirmed no fewer that 48,655 people. To bring this sacrament within the reach of the suffering faithful he had to undergo the severest hardships, often with no other food than a little oaten bread.

The storm of persecution burst with renewed fury on the Irish Church in 1673; the schools were scattered, the chapels were closed. Dr. Plunket, however, would not forsake his flock. His palace thenceforward was some thatched hut in a remote part of his diocese. As a rule, in company with the Archbishop of Cashel, he lay concealed in the woods or on the mountains, and with such scanty shelter that through the roof they could at night count the stars of the sky. He tells their hardship in one of his letters: “The snow fell heavily, mixed with hailstones, which were very large and hard. A cutting north wind blew in our faces, and snow and hail beat so dreadfully in our eyes that up to the present we have scarcely been able to see with them. Often we were in danger in the valleys of being lost and suffocated in the snow, till at length we arrived at the house of a reduced gentleman who had nothing to lose. But, for our misfortune, he had a stranger in his house by whom we did not wish to be recognized, hence we were placed in a garret without chimney, and without fire, where we have been for the past eight days. May it redound to the glory of God, the salvation of our souls, and of the flock entrusted to our charge”.

Writs for the arrest of Dr. Plunket were repeatedly issued by the Government. At length he was seized and cast into prison in Dublin Castle, 6 Dec., 1679, and a whole host of perjured informers were at hand to swear his life away. In Ireland the character of those witnesses was well known and no jury would listen to their perjured tales, but in London it was not so, and accordingly his trial was transferred to London. There was no secret as to the fact that his being a Catholic bishop was his real crime. Lord Brougham in “Lives of the Chief Justices of England” brands Chief Justice Pemberton, who presided at the trial of Dr. Plunket, as betraying the cause of justice and bringing disgrace on the English Bar. This Chief Justice set forth from the bench that there could be no greater crime than to endeavour to propagate the Catholic Faith, “than which (he declared) there is not anything more displeasing to God or more pernicious to mankind in the world”. Sentence of death was pronounced as a matter of course, to which the primate replied in a joyous and emphatic voice: “Deo Gratias”.

On Friday, 11 July 1681, Dr. Plunket, surrounded by a numerous guard of military, was led to Tyburn, to be hanged, drawn and quartered. Vast crowds assembled along the route and at Tyburn. As Dr. Brennan, Archbishop of Cashel, in an official letter to Propaganda, attests, all were edified and filled with admiration, “because he displayed such a serenity of countenance, such a tranquillity of mind and elevation of soul, that he seemed rather a spouse hastening to the nuptial feast, than a culprit led forth to the scaffold”. From the scaffold he delivered a discourse worthy of an apostle and martyr. An eye-witness of the execution declared that by his discourse and by his heroism in death he gave more glory to religion than he could have won for it by many years of a fruitful apostolate.

St. Oliver Plunket’s martyrdom closed the long series of deaths for the faith, at Tyburn. The very next day after his execution, the bubble of conspiracy burst. Lord Shaftesbury, the chief instigator of the persecution, was consigned to the Tower, and his chief perjured witness Titus Oates was thrown into jail.

Benedict Constable (or, Counstable)

Benedictine. Died on 11 December, 1683, in Durham Jail.

Lord William Petre

Layman. Died in 1684.

William Bentney (or, Bennet) 

Born 1609. Jesuit; ordained by 1640. He was sent to the English missions in 1640, and labored there with great zeal and success for forty-two years. He was then arrested, at the instigation of a nobleman to whose sisters he was administering the sacraments, and was taken to the Leicester jail. No one in those parts being willing to bear witness against him, Bentney was at once transferred to Derby, where he was tried and sentenced to death at the spring assizes of 1682. His execution was delayed for unknown reasons, and on the accession of James II he was released. He was rearrested, however, tried and condemned after the Revolution, but the sentence remained suspended, and on 30 October 1692 he died in Leicester jail.

Paul Atkinson

Franciscan. One of the notable confessors of the English Church during the age which succeeded the persecution of blood. Having been condemned to perpetual imprisonment for his priesthood, starting around the year 1699, he died in confinement in Hurst Castle, after thirty years’ imprisonment, on 15 October, 1729. He joined the English Franciscan convent at Douai in 1673, and had served with distinction on the English mission for twelve years, when he was betrayed by a maidservant for the 100 pound reward.

* * * * *

Priests Who Died in London Prisons: Unknown Dates

Austin Abbot (or, John Rivers)
Richard Adams
Thomas Belser
? Gretus
Richard Weston (Jesuit)
William Wood
John Young

Laymen Who Died in London Prisons: Unknown Dates

Alexander Bales
Sandra Cubley
Anthony Fugatio (Portugese)
Richard Hart
? Lingon (widow)
? May
? Reynold
Edmund Sexton
Francis Spencer
John Thomas
Peter Tichborne

Priests Who Died in York Prisons: Unknown Dates

William Bannersley
James Gerard
John Pearson
Thomas Ridall
James Swarbrick

Laymen Who Died in York Prisons: Unknown Dates

Anthony Ash
John Chalmer (or, Chalmar)
Isabel Chalmer
Agnes Fuister
Thomas Luke
Alice Oldcorne
? Reynold? Robinson
John Stable
Margaret Stable
Geoffrey Stephenson
Christopher Watson
Frances Webster

Margaret Webster
Hercules Welbourne
Alice Williamson

Priests or Monks Who Died in English Prisons: Unknown Dates

Thomas Blount
Humphrey Browne (Jesuit)
Thomas Brownel (Brigittine laybrother)
James Gerard
Germain Holmes (Franciscan)
John Hudd (Jesuit)
John Pearson
Cuthbert Prescott (Jesuit)
Ignatius Price (Jesuit)
Charles Pritchard (Jesuit)

Thomas Rede (Benedictine)
Francis Simeon (Jesuit)
James Swarbrick
John Thompson (Jesuit)
Charles Thursley (Jesuit)
Thomas Vaughan

Sister Isabel Whitehead (Benedictine)
Boniface Wilford (Benedictine)

Laymen Who Died in English Prisons: Unknown Dates

Richard Hocknell
William Maxfield
Alice Paulin
Edmund Rookwood
Richard Spenser
? TremaineRobert Tyrrwhit
Edmund Vyse
Jane Vyse

***

(originally 2-16-08)

Photo credit: part of the gruesome process of being hanged, drawn, and quartered (removal of the intestines). Unknown date [public domain / Wikimedia Commons]

***

February 6, 2018

Discussion with a Catholic woman. Her words will be in blue.

***

1. Something occurred to me about your argument against people saying that God can interfere with artificial contraception if he really wanted you to have kids. You said, I could hold my breath and choke myself and say God would intervene if he wanted me to live, but that would be ridiculous. I’m paraphrasing. Remember?

Yep.

Isn’t it pretty much the same thing when you practice NFP and think, if you are in an infertile period and have sex, you’re still being open to life because if God really wills you to have a child, he’ll let it happen. To me that sounds every bit as superstitious for some reason.

God can always do a miracle. To act as if He is even remotely likely to do so in the above situation would be silly and perhaps superstitious as well (because miracles by definition are extremely rare and “non-normative”). But short of that, “openness to life” is not a particularly relevant consideration during the infertile periods (in a certain sense), because there is no need to contracept then anyway.

The evil of contraception lies in the “contralife will,” and that is primarily exercised (in a practical sense) by frustrating the natural state of things during fertile periods. That’s why, when I first became convinced of the wrongness of contraception in 1990, while still a Protestant, the first thing we did was abstain during the fertile periods. There was no need to during the non-fertile times. But it doesn’t follow that artificial contraception becomes moral during infertile times, because it is intrinsically a grave sin; contrary to the nature of things and the natural law (as, for example, we would say homosexual acts also are).

Having sex during non-fertile times in the context of NFP is entirely different. That involves no frustration of nature or natural law, but rather it is acting “naturally within nature,” when nature happens to be such that no conception will take place. The Catholic Church has never said a couple can’t do that. If that were true, then couples would have to abstain after the woman’s menopause, or always, if she were infertile (or if the man had a low sperm count). But that has never been a Church teaching either. You are interpreting this far too hyper-literally. Couples do not need to have ten kids to be good Catholics, as there are permissible reasons to limit the numbers (financial, emotional, and physical).

2. Why would preventing transmission of life be so grave anyway?

The answer is complex and multi-faceted, and I am afraid I will have to ultimately refer you back to the many links on my Life Issues page. But the “short” answer is the attempted deliberate frustration of the primary essence of sexuality (procreation), and of placing our own “contralife” will above God’s possible will. The will is central in the Catholic notion of what is a sin, and in considerations of degrees of culpability for sin. NFP (rightly understood and practiced) does not entail this “contralife will.” It is essentially different, though the method can be abused and used in a contraceptive fashion, for the wrong motives.

It is just as wrong to have sex for procreation alone (sort of the stereotypical Victorian outlook, where couples wouldn’t even see each other naked, as if that were “wicked”) as it would be to engage in it for pleasure alone (which is the prevailing opinion today), because God designed things so that the two elements should be together. We don’t eat purely for pleasure, do we? Or purely for health reasons, to the exclusion of good taste. If someone does that, we think they are weird, because, well, “it is unnatural.” We don’t go around sticking our elbows in someone’s nose, or our toe in their ear (what would you think of a guy who did that on your first date?). We instinctively know this is “weird” and unnatural.

Likewise, we don’t use balloons and rubber cups and pills which mess around with the natural functions of the female reproductive system, in relation to something as sacred and beautiful as moral sex, within marriage. Christians used to instinctively know this, too, but we have bought into the Planned Parenthood / Overpopulation / children are a burden pagan mentality. Margaret Sanger (the founder of Planned Parenthood) was a eugenicist who wanted to have less black people around. She was also quite promiscuous as well, so her motives for contraception were quite clear, I think.

Read Humanae Vitae itself. The fact that all the predictions in it have come true is yet another verification of its profound truths. Also, it has been demonstrated sociologically, legally, and historically, that legal abortion inevitably follows a societal and moral relaxation of the prohibition of abortion. Ever hear of the Griswold v. Connecticut case? That had to do with contraception, and was a direct forerunner to Roe v. Wade.

Am I being anti-life and sinning because I do not join the Peace Corps and save people (who already exist) from dying a horrible unnecessary death? No.

That’s right, but this has nothing to do with a “contralife will” so it is a non sequitur. You are not willing that these people die, or that they never should have existed. You are simply not engaging in one particular good (because it is impossible for one person to do every conceivable good thing).

There are many opportunities to be generous in this world and God does not hold it against us that we can’t do all of them. So why would I necessarily be sinning if I decided my generosity should not be expressed in the form of bearing children?

That would be fine if you wanted to remain single, as your calling in life. That’s what nuns and monks do. But part of the primary function and essence of marriage is to bear children. Sex with no intention of ever having children is unnatural and perverted, short of extreme physical problems, etc. It is part of Catholic marriage vows, in fact, to bear children. If one doesn’t want to do that at all, then it’s not even a valid marriage, according to Catholic teaching.

For the Church to tell us that there are most likely going to be times when we’re going to have sex because God has it in mind to give us a child, so we’d better not practice artificial contraception, smacks of the notion of predestiny.

That is not the basis for the reasoning behind this moral teaching, which is the contralife will and perversion of the natural law and function of sexuality, not abstract notions of predestination with regard to when God might act to cause a child to be created (as if it were routinely supernatural rather than natural).

But Catholics declare the notion of predestiny as heretical.

Not exactly. We believe in predestination. Unlike Calvinists. however, we do not oppose it to human free will, or accept predestination of the damned to hell, with no choice in the matter at all on their part. Those beliefs are heretical, not predestination per se.

Anyway, if we do assume the premise that God wills a particular child on us,

We can’t know that. What we can know, though, is that if we contracepted all the time, we would definitely not have a child. If everyone in the world did this all the time (quite hypothetically, obviously), then God’s decree to “be fruitful and multiply” would be entirely frustrated, wouldn’t it? (and the earth would be barren of all people in a 110 or so years). Conception is in His Providence, as all things are, even though it is natural, and the “miracle of life” is, technically, a metaphor or a synonym for “wondrous and marvelous.”

any abstinence out of fear of pregnancy when you are really in the mood to do it would seem to be tantamount to telling God, “No, not now, I am not open to life at this moment”.

This confuses things. It depends on whether the couple has legitimate reasons to limit children or not. If they do (as in our case), then they abstain, no matter how they feel, during fertile periods. Such is the discipline of a virtuous life, where the assumption of the “freedom of unlimited sex at all times” is denied. We just went through a 9-day period of abstention ourselves. It’s not easy. No one ever said it was. But the good thing is that it actually helps to keep the “spark” in marriage, by simulating the “waiting” and the drama and tension which was present before marriage (i.e., in those who didn’t sin by fornicating). Catholic apologist and convert Steve Ray (a friend of mine) has a cute saying. He says: “I had a lot harder time accepting the prohibition of contraception than I did accepting the pope, because I don’t have to sleep with the pope.”

If they don’t have a legitimate reason, then they ought to have sex whenever they like, enjoy it (without having to adhere to the disciplinary “strictness” of NFP), and joyfully accept any child that is conceived.

I’m talking when things get really heated up and sex looks like it’s going to happen, and then you say “No.” If you did have sex, then you’d be pregnant with Joe or Jessica. We can never know, but God does. We would have said after the fact that it was God’s will that we had Joe or Jessica.

All children who are conceived are “God’s will,” because they are beautiful and made in His image, and intrinsically infinitely valuable. They have an eternal soul. That’s why slaughtering them is so wrong. And it’s why thinking they are a “burden” is also wrong (though not as evil as abortion).

But in reality, we chose not to have sex. Did we commit sin? It would sound like by Catholic logic, yes.

We are never compelled to have sex at any particular time, so it is not a sin to abstain. This is not “Catholic logic” at all. It’s fallacious “logic.”

We didn’t know that we were to be pregnant, but we knew that we could have. Maybe this is too hypothetical to really be a real argument, though :-)

Yes, it is too abstract, and it doesn’t illustrate Catholic ethics or morality on the subject, because I don’t think you fully understand the rationale behind that, which I am trying hard to explain (most inadequately, I suspect and fear).

3. Natural law = procreation?

During fertile periods, quite possibly yes. :-)

Catholics say something like, is it any accident that the female body has these cycles of fertility? It’s natural law to procreate.

Yes, I would say that it is natural to expect that if you have sex, that sooner or later a baby will result. It’s self-evident (as the delightful Dr. Laura would point out). And a baby should eventually result from sex, or else we should not engage in it (again, excepting an infertile or post-menopausal woman or man with inadequate sperm, where “contralife will” is not relevant).

But that backfires. Is it any accident that females are infertile most of the time?

No; nothing in God’s creation is an accident, ultimately. It all has a purpose.

Pregnancy can be seen as an aberration to the usual order of things if you take that stance.

But that would be pure paganism, not Christianity, let alone Catholic Christianity. And that is where our culture is at today. Pregnancy is an “abnormality.” Childbirth is a sort of disease, and treated as such by many (most?) doctors, rather than as the natural, beautiful thing it is (even with all the pain). It has to be “induced” so that everything can be on schedule, etc. Many more C-sections occur than need to. Don’t get me goin’ on the great faults and sins of the medical profession . . . :-)

4. Just because I can do something, does that mean I should do it? No. Just because we’re given certain organs might not mean we need to procreate with them. (I’ll address abstinence later though).

Hmmmm. Again, it is permissible to limit children, for sufficiently serious reasons. A desire for an extravagant, materialistic, narcissistic, self-centered lifestyle, e.g., is not one of these sufficient reasons. To have sex with no intention of ever having children, which are regarded as a “hindrance” and a “burden” and an “inconvenience” is wicked. Sex is supposed to be essentially an act of giving oneself totally to another, within the context of total commitment and love, not “taking” and “abusing” the other solely for lustful or “conquest” purposes. As such it is natural that it produces children, where the love of the couple can be expressed also outward to others who came from them, as a result of their love and unity.

5. Is a couple being “anti-life” if they do have kids but desire to practice contraception some of the time, too?

Yes. They must abstain when necessary, if they have sufficient reason to not have more children.

Why does every act have to be open to the transmission of life?

Because that is the essence of things, and the “ontology of sexuality,” and because breaking down this natural state in fact leads to the horrors of abortion and the appalling lack of respect for life that we see today. As I noted in my conversion story, I figured out in 1990 that if a couple feels they can thwart a possible conception, then they can — by a diabolical logical progression — come to regard an unplanned conception as unwanted, therefore able to be killed, by the same reasoning which concludes that they “own their own bodies,” etc., rather than being stewards of God’s gift, as the Christian view holds. The same reasoning applies to “assisted suicide.” Read Humanae Vitae, and articles about it, particularly by Janet Smith. Many people explain these things far better than I do.

Why couldn’t being “open to life” be regarded as a general attitude, and not something to take issue with each and every time sex is performed?

Because it violates natural law, each and every time we engage in contraception. Abstention during fertile periods doesn’t do that, because there is no deliberate separation of the procreative and unitive functions of sexuality. The couple acknowledges that nature is what it is, and that if they have legitimate, moral reasons to not have a child at the time, that they must abstain, so as not to violate natural law and mess around with goofy devices, which even animals would not stoop so low as to use.

I don’t eat three meals a day because I need to live. If I skip a meal, it does not mean that I want to kill myself. I don’t need every meal that I eat. It’s the general attitude that yes, I must nourish myself adequately. That is sufficient.

You’re not violating the essence or nature of food and nutrition by skipping a meal, just as you’re not violating the purpose of sex by abstaining for some valid reason or other. This bolsters my case. The true analogy to food is the one I gave above: an attempt to separate the pleasure of taste buds from the nutritional aspect by absurdly following one path to the exclusion of the other. Why do we think that is “weird?” Because we instinctively know it is unnatural. Same thing with contraception (or homosexual acts, for that matter).

If I lived solely on Twinkies and cotton candy, you would think I was weird; an oddball. If I wanted to eat bark and cow’s intestines and slimy, filthy tarantulas and dog vomit and nothing else (say they had excellent nutritional value), you would think I was weird too (and I don’t think you would have me as a boyfriend if we were both single). It used to be that the playboy and philanderer or loose woman was considered a wicked, abnormal person, because they separated sex from commitment and childbirth, and joined it to profit or ego and the manipulation and cruelty of selfish conquest.

And we think Victorian prudery (or that of some strains of Christian fundamentalism today) and refusal to enjoy the pleasure of sex in its proper bounds is equally odd and abnormal. All these things are of a piece. Nutrition and taste buds were designed to go together by God. So were sex (as pleasure) and procreation, and male and female sexual organs (just by looking at how bodies are designed, one can readily see that).

But being open every time, because God has a child in mind for you, seems to go back to the notion of predestiny.

This is not the rationale, as I’ve explained.

Why can’t sex only be unitive sometimes?

Literally speaking, it is that during infertile periods. One accepts nature as it is at those times. But one tries to pervert nature (i.e., God’s creation, which is good) by contracepting during fertile periods, and to separate what shouldn’t be separated.

Why do we say sex needs to be unitive and procreative? They say it’s because sex is procreative by nature (natural law).

Exactly.

But most completely natural sex that we have will not result in procreation no matter what we do. Therefore some sex is completely not procreative, no matter how “open to life” we are in our mind.

Being “open to life” means not deliberately trying to prevent it from occurring. That is where the evil lies.

Yet it says something, that we are still able to have sex during those times. What could the message be? That God is emphasizing that sex is always unitive, but not necessarily has to be procreative? Looks like it to me. If God meant for sex always to be procreative as well as unitive, he probably would have made us only able to have sex when we were fertile, as some other species of animals are. The fact is, there is a lot of non-procreative sex going on out there. And therefore to say that sex = procreative = natural law (which we must follow) is false. Sex is proven not to be procreative at times, by nature. But we can prove that sex can always be unitive (unless we’re talking abuse or rape).

All of this rhetoric presupposes the false assumption that Catholics supposedly teach (by logical implication) that one must always have sex during fertile periods, or have as many kids as they possibly can (leaving it completely up to nature, etc.), or that all sex must be literally procreative. Rather, it is a matter of accepting nature as it is and being “open” in spirit to a new life which might result (rather than being hostile to it, being willing to exterminate a precious child as an “inconvenience”).

The evil lies in attempting to “mess with nature.” Therefore, it’s not “anti-procreation” to have sex during infertile times because procreation isn’t an issue then. We aren’t saying that it is wrong to have sex unless procreation is possible; rather, we are saying that it is wrong to make pleasure an end in itself, or the other person the means to an end (purely selfish pleasure), or to separate the procreative and unitive purposes for this evil goal by a deliberate act of the will.

Why God made the female reproductive system and menstrual cycle as it is might have any number of possible (but speculative) explanations. Scientists used to think that the appendix had no function, then they figured out that it did. There is a reason for everything in nature. We didn’t have a clue about DNA or sub-atomic particles or black holes 150 years ago. Why is a woman pregnant for nine months instead of one? Why can’t the child be born at one month gestation so it wouldn’t hurt as much, then grow rapidly once born (maybe in a pouch, like a kangaroo)?

For that matter, God could have made men and women so that they only desired to have sex with exclusively decent, loyal, committed people, or after they were married, or only till the age of 25, etc. We can’t answer any of these questions with finality, as to why God did or didn’t do this, that, or the other.

Oh, you can say but “Generally, sex is procreative, though, since it is how we do get pregnant sometimes”. But then I could say, “Oh, okay, so then ‘Generally’ is good enough; therefore it’s enough to (see above) have a generally pro-child attitude, but I don’t need to be open to life every single time I have sex!”

It is the contraceptive “anti-child” mentality which is evil.

6. Procreation keeps the species going. But does that mean everybody should do it?

No; some ought to be celibate. That’s also God’s plan.

We need food. Do we condemn everyone who is not a farmer?

Again, it’s not the refraining from certain goods which we all do in one way or another (the priesthood is good, but I’m a married man, so I haven’t participated in that good — i.e., in the Latin western rites, where celibacy is required –, etc.) which is at issue, but the positive commission of the sin of contraception.

I realize there are many other complex arguments, but these ones really get me.

You ask good, probing questions. I respect that. But I think you have enough information with this, and all the links on my site to fully understand this position, and to have all your questions answered adequately (it might take a little time to read all that you need to read). The bottom line is (if you are a Catholic): are you willing to accept the authority of the Church on this matter (and it is infallible) and render assent whether or not you fully understand it?

It’s good to understand as much as we can (don’t get me wrong, and my whole purpose on the Internet is to help facilitate such understanding in my own feeble manner), but we all have to accept things we don’t understand in many areas of life. In this instance, it is a matter of authority and what Christ intended for His Church, and its “claim” over the lives of His followers.

I have as much fun with this as you do. If I’m bothering you, just say so. I’m not trying to antagonize you, but as you said of yourself, “I love this stuff!” I feel as if I need to know why I believe something; otherwise I don’t really call it a true “belief”.

As long as you are seriously inquiring after truth and morality (as I believe you are) and not playing some sort of “intellectual game,” as some do, then I think it is both fun and educational. We can both learn and sharpen our arguments. Thanks again for the stimulation and good conversation.

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(originally 2-16-01)

Photo credit: image by Vargklo (uploaded on 8-28-07) [public domain / Wikimedia Commons]

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January 22, 2018

SmithJoseph2

Mormonism holds to “another Jesus” (2 Cor 11:4) and many gods (polytheism).

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PART ONE

GO TO PART TWO

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Dr. Barry R. Bickmore holds a Ph.D. in Geological Sciences from Virginia Tech, and is the author of Restoring the Ancient Church: Joseph Smith and Early Christianity. Currently he is a professor in the department of geological sciences at Brigham Young University. In the Mormon Church he has been a seminary teacher, ward clerk, elder’s quorum president, and quorum teacher, among other things.

This dialogue is a response to his 2001 article, “Doctrinal Trends in Early Christianity and the Strength of the Mormon Position” (cited verbatim), which is found at the website for The Foundation for Apologetic Information & Research (FAIR), a non-profit organization dedicated to providing well-documented answers to criticisms of Mormon (LDS) doctrine, belief and practice. The first section is a reply — with his permission — to a portion of Dr. Bickmore’s personal letter of 9 December 2001. Dr. Bickmore’s words will be in blue.

 

TABLE OF CONTENTS

I.The Book of Mormon Compared to Historic Biblical Christianity

1. GOD’S ETERNAL EXISTENCE AND IMMUTABILITY

2. QUASI-SABELLIAN HERETICAL TEACHING: IS JESUS GOD THE FATHER?

3. OSTENSIBLY TRINITARIAN PASSAGES

4. “THE FULNESS OF THE EVERLASTING GOSPEL”

II. The Evolution of the Evolving “god[s]” of Mormonism

1. THE “GREAT SECRET” OF MORMONISM: POLYTHEISM

2. “PREMORTAL EXISTENCE” AND JESUS THE ETERNAL UNCREATED “FIRSTBORN”

3. MORMON STATEMENTS ON POLYTHEISM

4. “GOD” AND MARY HAVE SEX TO PRODUCE JESUS, WHO WAS A POLYGAMIST

III. Theology Proper: The Nature of God the Father

1. PRELIMINARIES: MORMON VS. CATHOLIC SCHEMAS OF CHURCH HISTORY

2. DOES GOD THE FATHER HAVE A BODY, OR IS HE AN INVISIBLE SPIRIT?

3. THE MEANING OF THE “IMAGE OF GOD”

4. THE “SEEN / UNSEEN” PARADOX AND THEOPHANIES (APPEARANCES) OF GOD

5. DR. BICKMORE AND THE BOOK OF MORMON ON THE UNCHANGEABILITY OF GOD

6. TERTULLIAN, ST. PAUL, AND THE “GOD OF THE PHILOSOPHERS”

7. ORIGEN AND ST. JUSTIN MARTYR ON THE NATURE OF GOD

8. COMPARISON OF THE TEACHINGS OF ST. IRENAEUS AND MORMONISM ON GOD

9. WHAT WAS THE “STANDARD JEWISH CONCEPT” OF GOD IN THE FIRST CENTURY?

10. MORMON CONFUSION CONCERNING CHRISTIANITY AND PHILOSOPHY

11. BIBLICAL/HEBREW ANTHROPOMORPHISM DEFINED AND EXAMINED

12. ACCORDING TO THE LOGIC OF MORMON ANTHROPOMORPHIC LITERALISM, GOD HAS WINGS, FEATHERS, IS A ROCK, A FIREBALL, BLEW HIS NOSE TO DROWN THE EGYPTIANS IN THE SEA, AND CARRIED THE ENTIRE HEBREW NATION IN HIS GIANT HAND

IV. Mormon Historian Lance Owens’ Hypothesis Concerning the Occultic, Kabbalistic, and Gnostic Origins of Mormonism

V. Creation Ex Nihilo (From Nothing)

VI. Response to Mormon Claims About Trinitarian Subordination, Subjection, and the Creator/Creature Distinction in Early Christianity

VII. Reply to Dr. Bickmore’s Critique of Catholic Development of Doctrine

 

I. The Book of Mormon Compared to Historic Biblical Christianity

1. GOD’S ETERNAL EXISTENCE AND IMMUTABILITY

One word of caution before you proceed. You said you have lots of material on your site defending the deity of Christ and the Holy Spirit. We believe in both, so that is a non-issue with us.

“Deity” means that Jesus Christ is God and the Holy Spirit is God, because deity means God. Let the reader note well that Dr. Bickmore states that this is what Mormons believe. Now, God has a well-defined and unchanging meaning throughout Church history, consistent with the definition and attributes of God found in the Holy Bible. These were summed up in the Nicene Creed and (in greater detail) in the Athanasian Creed.

One of the fundamental, “non-negotiable” traits of God is that He is eternal and uncreated. This aspect of the theology of God is crucial to the overall Catholic-Mormon discussion, and Dr. Bickmore’s particular arguments below, so I shall treat it at some length.

The Book of Mormon is regarded by Mormons as Scripture:

The Book of Mormon is the word of God. It is scripture. It is not a replacement for the Bible. On the contrary, it is a supplement to the Bible . . . Like the Bible, the Book of Mormon was written by prophets of the Lord. (What is the Book of Mormon?, published by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, Salt Lake City, Utah, 1982 [Corporation of the President], 1)

The Book of Mormon teaches the orthodox Christian doctrine that God does not and cannot change, and is eternal:

For I know that God is not a partial God, neither a changeable being; but He is unchangeable from all eternity to all eternity. (Moroni 8:18; an epistle written by Mormon to his son Moroni, claiming direct inspiration from the “Lord” and the “Holy Ghost” – 8:7,9, cf. 3 Nephi 24:6)

About Moroni, the angel who — it is claimed — appeared to Mormonism’s founder, Joseph Smith in 1823, the above-mentioned pamphlet states:

. . . Moroni . . . was a resurrected being who had once lived as a mortal on the earth. This angel was the last prophet of the Nephite nation; that is, he was the last prophet of a group of ancient inhabitants of America. He was the last person to write in the Book of Mormon; it was he who had buried that record in a hill in a region that was later to be known as northwestern New York. (What is the Book of Mormon?, 4)

I shall not here examine the dubious archaeology of Mormonism, nor the question of the status and integrity (let alone divine inspiration) of the Book of Mormon (see, e.g., its claim that steel and breakable windows existed in the time of Abraham — c. 2000 B.C.: Ether 7:8-9, 2:23, or that Jesus was born in Jerusalem: Alma 7:10; the same verse teaches the Virgin Birth of Jesus — denied by Brigham Young and subsequent Mormonism). I am simply demonstrating that the Christian doctrine of God’s immutability is found — unarguably — in several places in this book, purporting to be additional divinely inspired revelation:

For do we not read that God is the same yesterday, today, and forever, and in him there is no variableness neither shadow of changing? And now, if ye have imagined up unto yourselves a god who doth vary, and in whom there is a shadow of changing, then have ye imagined up unto yourselves a god who is not a God of miracles. (Mormon 9:9-10; Moroni again writing; cf. 9:19, 1 Nephi 10:18, 2 Nephi 29:9, Hebrews 13:8, Doctrine and Covenants, 20:12)

This is orthodox, historic Christianity. So far so good.

For behold, God knowing all things, being from everlasting to everlasting . . . (Moroni 7:22 [Moroni] )

. . . Jesus is the Christ, the Eternal God. (2 Nephi 26:12)

Indeed. So we see that The Book of Mormon, believed to be God’s Word by Mormons, asserts the deity and eternal existence of Jesus Christ, which is harmonious with historic orthodox Christianity. If this were all that Mormons taught about Jesus, and not in logical opposition to other equally binding teachings of theirs, we Christians would have no beef with them on that score, but alas (and sadly), it is not all, as we shall see below. The Mormon difficulty (when all the facts are in) is internal inconsistency and incoherence, and departure from historic Christian theology proper (doctrine of God) and Christology.

. . . the Lord Omnipotent who reigneth, who was, and is from all eternity to all eternity . . . (Mosiah 3:5, cf. 1 Nephi 12:18, 15:15, 2 Nephi 4:35, 9:8, Alma 34:9, Helaman 1:11, 12:8, Ether 8:23, Moroni 10:28)

. . . the Lamb of God . . . the Son of the everlasting God . . . (1 Nephi 11:32)

Good . . .

. . . the Son, the Only Begotten of the Father, who is without beginning of days or end of years . . . (Alma 13:9)

This appears to teach the truth of the eternal existence of Jesus (i.e., that He was not created, and always existed, being God, who cannot not exist).

2. QUASI-SABELLIAN HERETICAL TEACHING: IS JESUS GOD THE FATHER?
 

. . . Christ the Lord, who is the very Eternal Father. Amen. (Mosiah 16:15; cf. 7:27)

Now Zeezrom saith again unto him: Is the Son of God the very Eternal Father? And Amulek said unto him: Yea, he is the very Eternal Father of heaven and earth, and all things which in them are; he is the beginning and the end, the first and the last. (Alma 11:38-39; cf. 11:26-30,32-33,35)

And because he dwelleth in flesh he shall be called the Son of God, and having subjected the flesh to the will of the Father, being the Father and the Son — The Father, because he was conceived by the power of God; and the Son, because of the flesh; thus becoming the Father and Son — And they are one God, yea, the very Eternal Father of heaven and earth. And thus the flesh becoming subject to the Spirit, or the Son to the Father, being one God . . . (Mosiah 15:2-5a)

. . . Jesus Christ, even the Father and the Son . . . (Mormon 9:12)

. . . Behold, I am Jesus Christ. I am the Father and the Son . . . (Ether 3:14)

Now we see serious heretical difficulties begin to appear (even while the truth of the eternal existence of Jesus is asserted). In the orthodox Christianity of all three major Christian communions: Protestant, Catholic, and Orthodox, trinitarianism is a fundamental tenet. Within the Trinity there is distinction of Person, even though the Three Divine Persons are one God, equal in power, essence, and glory.

Thus, one cannot say in that demonstrably biblical schema that the Father is the Son, or that the Son is the Holy Spirit, or that the Holy Spirit is the Father, so that distinction of Person is hopelessly confused, or that one or more of the Divine Persons transform themselves into another. This is the ancient heresy known as modal monarchianism, or Sabellianism, whereby God assumes different modes, according to the need of the moment, rather than existing at all times as Three Persons; recently re-invented as “Jesus Only” or “Oneness Pentecostalism” or so-called “Apostolic Christianity” (see links about those heresies at the very end of this paper). Yet this is what we find in the Book of Mormon, in these passages.

3. OSTENSIBLY TRINITARIAN PASSAGES
 

. . . Christ the Son, and God the Father, and the Holy Spirit, which is one Eternal God . . . (Alma 11:44)

. . . the only and true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which is one God, without end. Amen. (2 Nephi 31:21)

. . . the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Ghost are one; and I am in the Father, and the Father in me, and the Father and I are one . . . the Father, and I, and the Holy Ghost are one. (3 Nephi 11:27,36)

. . . unto the Father, and unto the Son, and unto the Holy Ghost, which are one God . . . . . (Mormon 7:7)

These verses “sound” trinitarian, but as seen above, the Mormon understanding (assuming it at least attempts to coherently exegete various passages of the Book of Mormon, so that we don’t have trinitarianism — or Sabellianism — here but not there) is apparently Modalistic or Sabellian. Nevertheless, it does once again (at least ostensibly) establish the teaching of the eternal existence of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, which is our immediate subject. And it refers to all three of them as God in some sense.

To adequately engage LDS theology, you will have to address the following questions. 1) What is God? 2) In what sense is there only one God? (I.e. how is it that more than one “person” can be God?).

As the Book of Mormon addresses those questions in the citations above, I will throw the question back to Dr. Bickmore to answer, given the later Mormon doctrines which I shall consider shortly. The last four passages above seem to teach that there is one God (monotheism), whether this be viewed in a trinitarian or Sabellian fashion. Whatever these passages teach, then (and they are Scripture to Dr. Bickmore and all Mormons); they reveal that God can have more than one Person, yet remain one God (and other passages show that He is eternal and immutable). This is even proclaimed by the “three witnesses” whose words appear at the beginning of every Book of Mormon:

And the honor be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost, which is one God. Amen. (Oliver Cowdery, David Whitmer, Martin Harris)

3) Is there a hierarchy within the Trinity?

Only in the sense of the willful subjection of the Son to the Father, as in the kenosis (“emptying”) referred to in Philippians 2:5-11. But this does not imply an inferiority or lack of equality as God, any more than Jesus’ subjection to Mary and Joseph (Luke 2:51) meant that He was intrinsically inferior to them, or that a wife’s subjection to her husband (Ephesians 5:22-24) implies that women are inferior to men (Galatians 3:28, Eph 5:21,28-33). To be God the Father’s only begotten Son is to be God (John 5:18). But they remain two distinct Divine Persons, and not merely modes of the one God, or synonyms or parallel terms for the same Being. See the section on Jesus’ subjection to the Father, in my paper on biblical proofs of the deity of Jesus.

Too much breath, ink, and electrons have been wasted arguing all the wrong questions. Mormons typically think mainstream Christians are all Modalists (although many are!) . . .

Individual self-professed “trinitarians” may be, of course, in ignorance, not even knowing, let alone understanding, the teaching of their own church or denomination. The United Pentecostal Church and a few other heretical sects actually are Modalists, officially. That is one thing. But it is a far more thorny problem to have a supposed “Scripture” which plainly teaches this heresy, as the Book of Mormon does. Yet that was only primitive, relatively undeveloped Mormon doctrine: the earliest heresy of Joseph Smith, as we shall soon learn, before he moved even further away — much further — from Christological orthodoxy.

4. “THE FULNESS OF THE EVERLASTING GOSPEL”
*
Joseph Smith proclaimed about the Book of Mormon:

He [the angel Moroni] said there was a book deposited, written upon gold plates . . . He also said that the fulness of the everlasting Gospel was contained in it, as delivered by the Savior to the ancient inhabitants . . . (“Testimony,” in copies of the Book of Mormon. Cf. Doctrine and Covenants 27:5, 135:3)

I told the brethren that the Book of Mormon was the most correct of any book on earth, and the keystone of our religion, and a man would get nearer to God by abiding by its precepts, than by any other book. (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 194 / History of the Church, Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1978, vol. 4, 461)

Indeed, this alleged new revelation states the same, in an entire chapter devoted largely to itself and its own momentous significance:

And the day cometh that the words of the book which were sealed shall be read upon the house tops; and they shall be read by the power of Christ; and all things shall be revealed unto the children of men which ever have been among the children of men, and which ever shall be even unto the end of the earth. (2 Nephi 27:11; cf. 27:35)

II. The Evolution of the Evolving “god[s]” of Mormonism
*

1. THE “GREAT SECRET” OF MORMONISM: POLYTHEISM

. . . and mainstream Christians typically think we are pagan-style polytheists. Neither assessment is correct, and we end up arguing past each other. I have tried to give Mormons a better understanding of what the mainstream Trinity doctrine is all about, so that we can cut down on the number of stupid, unproductive conversations.

I highly commend Dr. Bickmore in his quest for accurate representation of others’ differing theological beliefs. That is a goal I share. But I am truly baffled as to how a Mormon can present a coherent doctrine of God, given the citations above from one of their “Scriptures,” the Book of Mormon. There, God was immutable, and monotheism was preserved, albeit in a Sabellian sense. It gets quite confusing. Patrick Madrid, a Catholic apologist who specializes in Mormonism, among other areas, offers, I think, the key to the confusion that is Mormon theology:

Mormonism’s teachings on the nature of God metamorphosed dramatically over time, much like the continuously evolving god whose nature they supposedly explain . . . Among the things that needed restoring, [Mormon founder Joseph] Smith said in The King Follett Discourse, was the proper understanding of God’s nature:

Open your ears and hear, all ye ends of the earth, for I am going to prove it to you by the Bible . . .

God himself was once a man as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens! That is the great secret.

It’s also the great dilemma of Mormon theology: If God was once an ordinary man who evolved into exaltation, or godhood, then he is merely a contingent being, reliant upon a god above himself both for his own making . . . and for approbation . . . Smith continued in his Discourse:

My Father worked out his salvation with fear and trembling, and I must do the same; and when I get to my kingdom, I shall present it to my Father, so that he may obtain kingdom upon kingdom, and it will exalt him in glory. He will then take a higher exaltation, and I will take his place, and thereby become exalted myself.

. . . This amounts to infinite regress, an endless series of contiongent beings, something manifestly impossible . . . someone had to have been “the first god” from whom all the other gods got their start . . .The record shows that as time passed Smith’s theology changed . . . When Smith organized his church in 1830, eternal progression was not in his theological repertoire, at least not in any explicit form. The best evidence of this is the Book of Mormon, published in 1830 . . . the Book of Mormon reveals that Smith’s theology metamorphosed. In his early days Smith’s theories about God were closer to orthodox Christianity than to the polytheistic strain of theology he was to expound in later years. He promulgated a modalistic monotheism . . .

(From “Mormonism’s god(s),” This Rock, July 1992, 12-14 / The King Follett Discourse, ed. B.H. Roberts, Salt Lake City: Magazine Printing Company, 1963, 4-5. This was a sermon preached at the funeral of Elder King Follett in April 1844 — two months before Smith’s murder at the hand of a mob in Carthage, Illinois. It was published in the Mormon newspaper Times and Seasons on 15 August 1844, 613-614, and is included in many contemporary Mormon sources)

Why, then, in a revelation, described by its founder and restorer as containing “the fulness of the everlasting Gospel” and “the most correct of any book”; referred to by an angel as “these last records” (1 Nephi 13:40) — an extraordinary golden document delivered by an angel from God’s throne, which would reveal “all things . . . which ever have been among the children of men” — is the elemental, fundamental, supremely important doctrine of God not laid out for all to see?

The purported revelation did not teach it, but we are supposed to believe that Joseph Smith, in a burst of inspiration, was ordained to reveal it to men, blatantly contradicting that Book which he presented to the world fourteen years earlier as the final revelation? Surely, this is a considerably implausible notion for anyone to accept.

Beyond that, Harry Ropp lists thirteen Mormon doctrines not taught in the Book of Mormon:

(1) the organizational structure of the church, (2) the Melchizedekian priesthood, (3) the Aaronic priesthood, (4) the plurality of gods, (5) God as an exalted man, (6) a human being’s ability to become a god, (7) the three degrees of heaven, (8) the plurality of wives, (9) the Word of Wisdom, (10) the pre-existence of the human spirit, (11) eternal progression, (12) baptism for the dead and (13) celestial marriage. (The Mormon Papers, Downers Grove, IL: InterVarsity Press, 1977, 55)

Yet “prophet” Joseph Smith continues in his Discourse:

The mind or the intelligence which man possesses is co-equal with God himself . . . I might with boldness proclaim from the housetops that God never had the power to create the spirit of man at all . . .. . . we should understand the character and being of God and how he came to be so; for I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea, and take away the veil, so that you may see . . . I say, if you were to see him today, you would see him like a man in form — like yourselves in all the person, image, and very form as a man.

So I say to Dr. Bickmore: if this is how you define “God” and this is the sense, therefore, in which Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit are “God” and possess the attribute of “deity,” then I must reply that (from a biblical and orthodox perspective) this is no “God” at all. Words mean things, and historic Christian theology has never defined “God” in this fashion, nor does even the Book of Mormon, as we have seen. Yet Mormons continue to insist that they are entitled to adopt the word Christian for themselves, as a paper on the apologetic website where this paper of Dr. Bickmore appears, vainly argues.

2. “PREMORTAL EXISTENCE” AND JESUS THE ETERNAL UNCREATED “FIRSTBORN”
A recent LDS publication, in an almost unbelievably uninformed caricature of the orthodox Christian theology of God, asserts (by inescapable negative logical implication) that God was created (!):

When one believes God to be impersonal, uncreated, incorporeal, incomprehensible, unknown, unknowable, a mystical three-in-one spirit that fills immensity, it is not possible to accept him as the literal Father of our Lord. (What Mormons Think of Christ, published by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, Salt Lake City, Utah, 1976, 7)

This publication goes on to explicate the Mormon heretical doctrine of “premortal existence”:

. . . all men lived in a premortal estate before they were born into this world; all were born in the premortal existence as the spirit children of the Father. Christ was the firstborn spirit child . . . Christ, the Word, the Firstborn, had, of course, attained unto the status of Godhood while yet in premortal existence.In modern times he has said: “I was in the beginning with the Father, and am the Firstborn; And all those who are begotten through me are partakers of the glory of the same, and are the church of the Firstborn. Ye were also in the beginning with the Father. (Doctrine and Covenants 93:21-23 [regarded by Mormons as Scripture] ) (What Mormons Think of Christ, published by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, Salt Lake City, Utah, 1976, 25)

There are a number of biblically unthinkable errors here. Premortal existence cannot be found in the Bible. Christians believe that the individual soul is created by God at the moment of physical conception (e.g., Isaiah 44:2,24, 49:5, Jeremiah 1:5). Christ was not created, and did not have to “attain unto the status of Godhood,” since He is (and always has been) God; therefore He is eternal and uncreated, as the Bible and Book of Mormon teach. Nor do we human creatures partake of the glory of God, who is one Lord with no other, not one of many, and one whom we can supplant in due course, attaining Godhood ourselves. This is all — frankly — blasphemy and idolatry from the biblical and historic Christian perspective.

ISAIAH 42:8 I {am} the Lord: that {is} my name: and my glory will I not give to another, . . . (cf. 48:11) (KJV)

Lastly, whoever wrote this pamphlet as some sort of official publication of Mormonism, has an exceedingly weak understanding of the biblical concept of Jesus as the FirstbornDoctrine and Covenants thoroughly distorts the meaning of Colossians 1:15-19. I dealt with this issue at length in my paper presenting biblical proofs for the Deity of Christ:

COLOSSIANS 1:15-19 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: (16) For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether {they be} thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: (17) And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. (18) And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all {things} he might have the preeminence. (19) For it pleased {the Father} that in him should all fulness dwell. (KJV)

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The Greek for “firstborn” is prototokos, which means “preeminence” and “eternal preexistence,” according to Greek lexicons. It does not mean “first-created.” Apart from being untrue linguistically, this heretical interpretation is contradicted in the next two verses, which inform us that Christ “created all things,” and that He “is before all things.” The Hebrew usage of “firstborn” is also instructive, since it illustrates its meaning as “preeminent.”

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David is called “firstborn” in Ps 89:27, not because he was the literal first child of Jesse (for he was the youngest), but in the sense of his ascendancy to the kingship of Israel. Likewise, Jeremiah 31:9 refers to Ephraim as the firstborn, whereas Manasseh was the first child born (Gen 41:50-52). The nation Israel is called “my firstborn” by God (Ex 4:22). The Jewish rabbinical writers even called God the Father Bekorah Shelolam, meaning “firstborn of all creation,” that is, the Creator. This is precisely how St. Paul uses the “firstborn” phraseology in Col 1:15.

If Jesus created “all things,” then He Himself cannot be a thing (i.e., a creation); ergo, He is not created, but eternal. For this very reason, Jehovah’s Witnesses (with no justification in the Greek text whatever), add “other” to the passage, in order for Jesus to become a creation, as they imagine, according to their Arian heretical views. Mormons (though not the Book of Mormon) also deny that Jesus was eternal and immutable, so they set forth some of the same fallacious and unbiblical arguments towards that end. As for being “in the beginning” with the Father, this, too, is in an absolutely unique sense, not applicable at all to created human beings:

God the Father

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ISAIAH 44:6 Thus saith the Lord the King of Israel, and his redeemer the Lord of hosts; I {am} the first, and I {am} the last; and beside me {there is} no God.

REVELATION 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

REVELATION 21:6-7 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end . . . (7) He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. [cf. Is 41:4, 48:12]

Jesus the Incarnate God

REVELATION 1:17-18 . . . Fear not; I am the first and the last: (18) I {am} he that liveth, and was dead; . . .

REVELATION 2:8 . . . These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;

REVELATION 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. {identified as Jesus in 22:16}

REVELATION 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; these things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

The Greek for “beginning” is arche, from which we get our word “architect.” Its literal meaning, according to Greek scholars, is “origin, active cause, source, uncreated principle.” So the above verse is describing Jesus as the “architect,” or Creator of the Universe. In Rev 21:6 arche is applied to the Father, so it can’t possibly mean “created being,” as Jehovah’s Witnesses and other heretics maintain.

So, the long and the short of it is that neither firstborn nor beginning — once the original Greek words are taken into account — imply a creation of Jesus or an equivalency between the Lord Jesus and us creatures in that regard. Nothing could be further from the meaning of these biblical passages. These are all concepts related to the unique eternal existence (pure Being) of God, in contradistinction to our created, finite natures. And God the Father and God the Son, Jesus, are both presented as eternal, everlasting, and uncreated in the Bible (as in the Book of Mormon):

God Alone is Eternal and Uncreated

GENESIS 21:33 . . . the Lord, the everlasting God.

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EXODUS 3:14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

DEUTERONOMY 33:27 The eternal God {is thy} refuge, and underneath {are} the everlasting arms: . . .

PSALM 90:2 . . . even from everlasting to everlasting, thou {art} God.

PSALM 93:2 Thy throne {is} established of old: thou {art} from everlasting.

ISAIAH 40:28 . . . the everlasting God, the Lord, the Creator of the ends of the earth, . . .

ISAIAH 57:15 For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name {is} Holy; . . .

HABAKKUK 1:12 {Art} thou not from everlasting, O Lord my God, mine Holy One? . . .

MALACHI 3:6 For I {am} the Lord, I change not; . . .

ROMANS 16:26 . . . the everlasting God, . . .

1 TIMOTHY 1:17 . . . the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, . . .

Jesus’ Own Words

JOHN 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

O.T. Prophecy and N.T. Apostolic Witness

ISAIAH 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty God, the everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

[God the Father is called “Mighty God” (the same phrase in Hebrew, El Gibbor) at Deut 10:17, Neh 9:32, Is 10:21, and Jer 32:18. Likewise, the word for “everlasting,” ad, is applied to God the Father in Isaiah 57:15]

MICAH 5:2 But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, {though} thou be little among the thousands of Judah, {yet} out of thee shall he come forth unto me {that is} to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth {have been} from of old, from everlasting.

[The Hebrew word for “everlasting” here is olam, and it is often used in the most explicit way to describe God the Father’s eternal existence (e.g., Ps 41:13, 90:2, 93:2, 106:48, Is 40:28). If this word means “eternal and uncreated” when applied to God the Father (YHWH), then it must mean the same thing when it is applied to Jesus]

JOHN 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

HEBREWS 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

I could go on and on in presenting the hundreds of biblical evidences which refute Mormon theology (itself hopelessly self-defeating before we even start critiquing it), but they are available elsewhere, in my papers on biblical proofs for the deity of Christ and for the Holy Trinity. Dr. Bickmore claimed, remember, that Mormons believe in the “deity of Christ.” But we have seen what sort of “deity” this is, and how Jesus and God the Father have almost entirely lost their uniqueness and the very things which define God. He also claimed that Mormons are not “pagan-style polytheists.” Well, I’m not exactly sure what he means by “pagan-style” (probably the worship of stone and wooden idols), but Mormons are certainly polytheists, and certainly not monotheists.

3. MORMON STATEMENTS ON POLYTHEISM
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Mormon leaders plainly admit that their teaching is indeed polytheism (lit., “many gods”):

When our father Adam came into the garden of Eden, he came into it with a celestial body, and brought Eve, one of his wives, with him . . . He is our Father and our God, and the only God with whom we have to do. (Brigham Young, successor to Joseph Smith, The Journal of Discourses, Vol. 1 [Liverpool: F.D. Richards, 1855], 50)

Young proclaimed that “God revealed unto me . . . that Adam is our father and our God” — a doctrine since repudiated by the LDS: Deseret News, June 18, 1873. The second “prophet, seer, and revelator” of the LDS also thought that the moon was inhabited and that, “no question of it,” the sun [!!!] was also inhabited by life, as “it was not made in vain”: Discourse delivered in the Tabernacle, Salt Lake City, July 24th, 1870, Journal of Discourses, vol. 13, 271. Joseph Smith had also made false prophecies in Doctrine and Covenants [84, 101:17:20] that the New Jerusalem and the Mormon Temple would be built in Jackson County, Missouri [“Zion”] in his generation. Neither prediction occurred.

Gods exist, and we had better strive to be prepared to be one of them. (Brigham Young, The Journal of Discourses, vol. 7, 1860, 238)

. . . you have got to learn how to be gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all gods have done before you . . . to sit in glory, as do those who sit enthroned in everlasting power. (Joseph Smith, History of the Church, VI, 1844, 306)

[Commenting on Genesis 1:1] It read first, “The head one of the Gods brought forth the Gods,” that is the true meaning of the words . . . Thus the head God brought forth the Gods in the grand council. (Joseph Smith, Times and Seasons, August 1, 1844 [King Follett Discourse], 614)

As man is, God once was. As God is, man may become. (Lorenzo Snow, fifth president of the LDS churchMillennial Star, vol. 54)

We were begotten by our Father in Heaven; the person of our Father in Heaven was begotten on a previous heavenly world by His Father; and again, He was begotten by a still more ancient Father, and so on, from generation to generation. (Apostle Orson Pratt, The Seer, 1853, 132)

These viewpoints of “mature” Mormonism contradict one of their Scriptures, the Book of Mormon, which allegedly derived from the very throne of God (and they also go against the word of the angel who told the lie, which must make it a demon, I suppose):

Now Zeezrom said: Is there more than one God? And he answered, No. Now Zeezrom said unto him again: How knowest thou these things? And he said: An angel hath made them known to me. (Alma 11:28-31)

4. “GOD” AND MARY HAVE SEX TO PRODUCE JESUS, WHO WAS A POLYGAMIST

Christ was begotten by an immortal Father in the same way that mortal men are begotten by mortal fathers. (Bruce McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, 547)

The birth of the Savior was a natural occurrence unattended with any degree of mysticism, and the Father God was the literal Parent of Jesus in the flesh as well as in the Spirit. (Joseph Fielding Smith, Jr., Religious Truths Defined, 44)

Students of Scripture will also be surprised to learn from “prophets” and “apostles” that Jesus had several wives and several children:

. . . Jesus Christ was married at Cana of Galilee, that Mary, Martha, and others were his wives, and that he begat children. (Apostle Orson Hyde, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 2, 210)

The Scripture says that He, the Lord, came walking in the Temple, with His train; I do not know who they were unless His wives and children. (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 13, 309)

III. Theology Proper: The Nature of God the Father
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1. PRELIMINARIES: MORMON VS. CATHOLIC SCHEMAS OF CHURCH HISTORY

[Note: the location of the footnotes in the text was unfortunately lost during the change from Microsoft Word to html format — they don’t transfer in a cut-and-paste –, but the footnotes themselves have been retained. Readers can always consult Dr. Bickmore’s original paper (linked at the top of this page) if they seek specific footnote information]

(This paper was originally presented at a FARMS brown bag lecture, 7 November 2001)

Christianity as a whole is a historical religion. That is, its truth claims are based on the historical reality of certain events, such as the resurrection of Jesus Christ. In addition, each Christian denomination is bound to a particular view or range of views of Christian history that tie into its reason for existence. These views range from direct continuity with the New Testament Church among Catholics and Orthodox, to some measure of apostasy and reformation back to New Testament Christianity among Protestants. Latter-day Saints believe there was a total apostasy from New Testament Christianity, and a complete restoration of primitive Christianity was necessary, although we believe elements of the true faith from all past dispensations have been included, as well as things which have been “kept hid from before the foundation of the world.” To some degree, these propositions can be tested.

I agree with everything here except, of course, the alleged fact of a total apostasy.

My intent here is to outline a brief historical argument for the proposition that the Latter-day Saints represent, in the main, a restoration of primitive Christianity.

This is precisely the opposite of the truth. Mormons depart from biblical, apostolic, and patristic orthodoxy, especially (and quite spectacularly) with regard to the doctrine of God, here under consideration.

I am going to do that by showing that in some of the most important areas of theology, early trends in Christian doctrine point from something very like LDS doctrine and toward the doctrines of later Christianity. Finally, I will examine how different Christian traditions try to deal with these facts, and show that the meaning we attach to early Christian doctrinal development follows quite naturally, while other interpretations are usually very forced.

[2 Doctrine and Covenants (D&C;) 124:41]

I will demonstrate that this — however sincerely held by Dr. Bickmore and Mormons — is untrue.

2. DOES GOD THE FATHER HAVE A BODY, OR IS HE AN INVISIBLE SPIRIT?
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DOCTRINAL TRENDS IN EARLY CHRISTIANITY

I have chosen three areas of doctrine to illustrate my point. They are the nature of God, the relationship between God and the material universe, and the nature of the Divine Unity.

THE NATURE OF GOD

The question of the nature of God is absolutely fundamental to any theology. Joseph Smith preached that “if you were to see [God] today, you would see him like a man in form,” and that “the Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s; the Son also.” (3) On the other hand, mainstream Christians generally accept definitions such as that of the First Vatican Council of 1869-1870, where God was said to be “eternal, immense, incomprehensible — who, being a unique spiritual substance by nature, absolutely simple and unchangeable, must be declared distinct from the world in fact and by essence.” (5) The implications of this difference in doctrine are enormous. For instance, if the Father and Son both have their own anthropomorphic bodies, it doesn’t make any sense to postulate that they are “one Being,” as mainstream Christians do. Also, it doesn’t make any sense to speak of God creating matter from nothing, if God Himself has a material nature. I’m going to talk more about both of these issues later, but from the outset I wanted to point out the importance of differences in assumptions about the nature of God.

I thank Dr. Bickmore for straightforwardly outlining the profound, irreconcilable differences between the Mormon and biblical, Christian conceptions of God. The Bible (verses below: KJV) teaches that God the Father: the YHWH / Jehovah / Elohim / Adonai of the Old Testament, is an invisible Spirit:

JOHN 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time . . .

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JOHN 5:37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.

JOHN 6:46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.

1 TIMOTHY 1:17 . . . the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, . . .

1 TIMOTHY 6:16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: . . .

1 JOHN 4:12 No man hath seen God at any time . . .

Jesus said:

JOHN 4:24 God {is} a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship {him} in spirit and in truth.

After His Resurrection, He defined the relationship of a spirit to matter:

LUKE 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

The inescapable logical conclusion, therefore, from the mouth of our Lord Jesus, is that a spirit has not flesh and bones. God the Father is a spirit; ergo: God the Father has no flesh and bones, as Joseph Smith says He does. Now, whom are we to believe?: Joseph Smith, with his evolving “man-god” of flesh and bones, or the God-Man Jesus Christ, who taught that the Father was a non-material spirit? “Ya pays yer money and ya makes yer choice” . . . Or one can adopt the following curious metaphysical viewpoint:

There is no such thing as immaterial matter. All spirit is matter, but it is more fine or pure, and can only be discerned by purer eyes; We cannot see it; but when our bodies are purified we shall see that it is all matter. (Doctrine and Covenants 131:7-6)

3. THE MEANING OF THE “IMAGE OF GOD”

The idea that God has a body in human form stems from the first chapter in Genesis, which says, “And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. So God created man in his [own] image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.” (6)

Image as used in Genesis is easily (and quite biblically) explained in a theological or spiritual sense, as meaning the unique relationship between God and man, over against the animals; man’s personality, rationality, self-consciousness, self-determination, conscience, ability to fellowship with and know God, etc. This is made very clear in the repeated spiritual use of image (Greek, eikon) in the New Testament:

COLOSSIANS 3:10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him. (cf. 1 Cor 11:7)

In context (e.g., 3:1,3,5,8,12-16), this is obviously a spiritual, not a physical, meaning or application of “image.” The “new man” is not getting a new face and body which look more like God the Father’s alleged body, but a new spirit, power, and outlook. The same general notion (using a different Greek word) is conveyed in Ephesians 4:24:

EPHESIANS 4:23-24 (RSV) And be renewed in the spirit of your minds, and put on the new nature, created after the likeness of God in true righteousness and holiness.

Obviously, then, putting on the “likeness” of God here does not mean going from an ethereal, invisible spirit to a physical body, but rather, becoming more like God in His essence (i.e., righteousness and holiness). St. Paul — notably — even utilizes the metaphor of creation to express this spiritual notion:

2 CORINTHIANS 5:17 (RSV) Therefore, if any one is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has passed away, behold, the new has come.

Further instances of eikon demonstrate this point:

ROMANS 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son.(see the entire chapter for the spiritual and theological context; Paul was not talking about looking more like Jesus, but acting like Him)

2 CORINTHIANS 3:6,17-18 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life . . . (17) Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord {is}, there {is} liberty. (18) But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, {even} as by the Spirit of the Lord.

This passage is notable in that the Lord is equated with a “Spirit,” and then Paul proceeds to teach that we are “changed into the same image” — obviously again a spiritual rather than physical imaging of God.

Gerhard Kittel, in his Theological Dictionary of the New Testament (abridged and translated by Geoffrey W. Bromiley, Grand Rapids, Michigan: Eerdmans, 1985, 206), considered one of the most scholarly and authoritative biblical linguistic aids, writes of the NT use of eikon in the sense which we have been considering:

In 1 Cor. 11:7 Paul can also apply Gen. 1:27 to the male so as to bring out certain practical consequences for daily conduct. A little later, however [1 Cor 15:42-50; esp. 15:49], on the basis of Gen. 5:3, he contrasts our present bearing of the image of the earthly man with our future bearing of the image of the heavenly man. The idea here is that our being as the eikon of God is restored by union with Christ as eikon. This comes out plainly in Rom. 8:29, where our being conformed to Christ is given its distinctive emphasis by the fact that this means participation in his divine likeness. Those who are in Christ’s image are in God’s image in the true and original sense of Gen. 1:27. This likeness is the goal. 2 Cor. 3:18 carries the same message. Seeing the Lord’s glory means sharing it and thus being changed into his likeness. The concern of the Christian life is already the putting on of the new being that is renewed after the image of its Creator (Col. 3:10) . . . the restoration is also a goal of ethical action . . .

Furthermore, we find in the New Testament the familiar notion of Christ as the eikon of the invisible God. This factor, in and of itself, destroys the false idea that eikon must mean a representation of a physical entity. An image of an invisible being must be an image of qualities and characteristics other than physical. This is patently obvious. Yet Mormons somehow can overlook all these passages and (amazingly) claim that the non-Mormon view of God as Spirit has no biblical basis whatever.

JOHN 1:18 . . . the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared {him}. [RSV, NIV: “made him known”]

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JOHN 12:45 And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me.

JOHN 14:7-9 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him. (8) Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us. (9) Jesus saith unto him, have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou {then}, Shew us the Father?

2 CORINTHIANS 4:4 . . . Christ, who is the image of God, . . .

COLOSSIANS 1:15 . . . the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

(cf. Mosiah 7:27, Ether 3:15-17, which attribute the image to the body of Jesus, as Tertullian and Irenaeus did, but with the heretical Sabellian overtones that Jesus was the Father, as taught more explicitly elsewhere in the Book of Mormon)

HEBREWS 1:3 Who being the brightness of {his} glory, and the express image of his person, . . .

REVELATION 22:1,3-4 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb . . . (3) And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him: (4) And they shall see his face; . . .

4. THE “SEEN / UNSEEN” PARADOX AND THEOPHANIES (APPEARANCES) OF GOD
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The seeming contradiction of God being “seen” (as in theophanies, and in other passages such as Gen 17:1, 33:11, Num 12:7-8, Deut 34:10, Jud 13:22, Is 6:5), and “not seen” (in passages such as Ex 33:20, 1 Tim 6:16, and 1 Jn 4:12), has been explained variously. One can take the position (as several Church Fathers did) that all or some of the theophanies and appearances of the Angel of the Lord (as God Himself) are pre-incarnate appearances of Christ, or direct representatives of God, which would solve the paradox. The Apostle John (Jn 12:41) appears to interpret Isaiah’s vision of God (Is 6:1-8) as precisely such an appearance. Or, it is possible to maintain that God created visual manifestations of Himself which were not identical with Himself. In these instances what is being seen are the effects of God’s unmediated presence.

Theophanies, in any event, are not always personal appearances of God. For example, non-personal theophanies include the burning bush (Ex 3:1-6), the pillars of cloud and fire (Ex 13:21-22), the cloud and fire of Mt. Sinai (Ex 24:16-18), and the Shekinah glory cloud (Ex 40:34-38). No one would hold that the non-personal appearances represent a direct experience of God’s essence. In the same fashion, the personal theophanies can be considered as manifestations one step removed from the actual Father Himself.

Whenever God the Father is “seen,” it must either be in the sense of one of these manifestations, or else a beholding of the Son, Jesus, who reveals the Father, as in the verses directly above (or else God miraculously making Himself appear to human eyes). In this way, the passages about the invisible God are explained in a non-contradictory manner. Only trinitarianism can make sense out of, and harmonize all the biblical material. Arian, Sabellian, and other heretical hermeneutical schemas always — inevitably — run into insuperable difficulties.

We might add that in every case where a theophany was reported by biblical prophets, God was described as having human form in passages such as Ezekiel 1:26, Revelation 4:23, and Acts 7:56.

This is untrue, as I just gave four examples of non-human or man-like theophanies, a few paragraphs above.

Christopher Stead of the Cambridge Divinity School summarized, “The Hebrews pictured the God whom they worshipped as having a body and mind like our own, though transcending humanity in the splendour of his appearance, in his power, his wisdom, and the constancy of his care for his creatures.” (7)

This exhibits a fundamental misunderstanding of both theophanies and the Hebrew conception of God, where He was regarded as absolutely other, a spirit, and indeed a spirit who could not and would not become a man (hence the majority Jewish rejection of the very notion of an incarnate God as Messiah, let alone Jesus as Messiah and the God-Man).

It is true that the Jews’ understanding developed through the centuries (and especially in the post-biblical or post-exilic period), with the help of progressive revelation, just as Christian thought after it did (particularly with regard to trinitarianism). But it does not follow from this that the Jews held at any period to the notion of God with a body: a sort of pop-religion “God as an old man sitting in a rocking chair in the clouds” viewpoint. In fact, the several OT and NT indications of God’s omnipresence demolish — by themselves — the concept of a spatially-limited God-with-a-body:

1 KINGS 8:27 But will God indeed dwell on the earth? behold, the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain thee; . . . [cf. 2 Chron 2:6]

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PSALM 139:7-8 Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence? (8) If I ascend up into heaven, thou {art} there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou {art there}.

JEREMIAH 23:24 Can any hide himself in secret places that I shall not see him? saith the Lord. Do not I fill heaven and earth? saith the Lord.

ACTS 7:48-49 Howbeit the most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands; as saith the prophet, (49) Heaven {is} my throne, and earth {is} my footstool: what house will ye build me? saith the Lord: or what {is} the place of my rest?

EPHESIANS 4:6 One God and Father of all, who {is} above all, and through all, and in you all. [cf. 1 Cor 15:28]

The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia (ed. James Orr, Grand Rapids, Michigan: Eerdmans, 1956, vol. 2, 1253), a massive, scholarly, extremely in-depth five-volume reference work, details the Jewish conception of God in its article on “God”:

Men express their consciousness of God in the earliest periods in language borrowed from the visible and objective world. It does not follow that they thought of God in a sensuous way, because they speak of Him in the language of the senses, which alone was available for them.

5. DR. BICKMORE AND THE BOOK OF MORMON ON THE UNCHANGEABILITY OF GOD
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On the other hand, the mainstream Christian doctrine of God is nowhere attested in the Bible, and appears in Christian writings by the mid-second century.

One makes such sweeping statements at one’s own peril. The claim, “nowhere attested in the Bible” is refuted with a single contrary biblical proof-text, and I have offered many, many counter-examples. It’s too easy to refute this sort of “not a single proof” argument (though it is time-consuming — I can attest). It’s like shooting a plastic duck off a pedestal with a shotgun or a cannon.

The definition of God as an indivisible, simple, immaterial, unique, and eternally unchangeable spirit essence appears to derive from the Greek philosophical schools popular during this period.

This is quite odd for Dr. Bickmore to assert, given the clear teaching of one of his own Scriptures, the Book of Mormon:

For I know that God is not a partial God, neither a changeable being; but He is unchangeable from all eternity to all eternity. (Moroni 8:18)For do we not read that God is the same yesterday, today, and forever, and in him there is no variableness neither shadow of changing? And now, if ye have imagined up unto yourselves a god who doth vary, and in whom there is a shadow of changing, then have ye imagined up unto yourselves a god who is not a God of miracles. (Mormon 9:9-10; Moroni again writing; cf. 9:19, 1 Nephi 10:18, Hebrews 13:8,Doctrine and Covenants, 20:12)

6. TERTULLIAN, ST. PAUL, AND THE “GOD OF THE PHILOSOPHERS”
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Some Christian writers frankly admitted this correspondence, and in fact promoted the doctrine as a ready defense against the attacks of pagan critics. Around the turn of the third century, Tertullian wrote, “Whatever attributes therefore you require as worthy of God, must be found in the Father, who is invisible and unapproachable, and placid, and (so to speak) the God of the philosophers.” (8)

It so happens that this work was from Tertullian’s Semi-Montanist period. In any event, it is of little significance to our discussion. Many (probably most) of the Fathers were apologists, and sought common ground with philosophy in order to make the gospel more acceptable to them. We observe the Apostle Paul “incorporating paganism / Greek philosophy” in a sense when he dialogues with the Greek intellectuals and pagan Epicurean and Stoic philosophers on Mars Hill in Athens (Acts 17:16-32). In fact, Paul in this discourse seems quite proficient in understanding the concepts of pagan philosophy.

He compliments their religiosity (17:22), and comments on a pagan “altar with the inscription, ‘To an unknown god.’ ” (17:23). He then goes on to preach that this “unknown god” is indeed Yahweh, the God of the OT and of the Jews (17:23-24). Then he expands upon the understanding of the true God as opposed to “shrines made by human hands” (17:24-25), and God as Sovereign and Sustaining Creator (17:26-28). In doing so he cites two pagan poets and/or philosophers: Epimenides of Crete (whom he also cites in Titus 1:12) and Aratus of Cilicia (17:28) and expands upon their understanding as well (17:29).

So, according to Dr. Bickmore’s (and overall Mormon) reasoning, the Apostle Paul is clearly guilty of mixing Greek pagan philosophy and Christianity. In other words, he exhibits the disturbing and distinguishing marks of what they claim was a primary cause of the Great Apostasy. After all, it was Paul who stated,

To the weak I became weak, so that I might win the weak. I have become all things to all people, that I might by all means save some. (1 Cor 9:22; NRSV – read the context of 9:19-21).

In the same work, Tertullian stated:

In so far as a human being is able to formulate a definition of God . . . God is the Great Supreme Being existing in eternity, unbegotten, uncreated, without beginning and without end. (1:3:2; from William A. Jurgens, editor and translator, The Faith of the Early Fathers, vol. 1 of 3, Collegeville, Minnesota: The Liturgical Press, 1970, 138)

This is no different from several verses of the Book of Mormon already recounted, including the most recent two above (not to mention a host of biblical passages). Tertullian merely says of the Father what the allegedly uniquely-inspired Book of Mormon says about Jesus:

. . . the Son, . . . , who is without beginning of days or end of years . . . (Alma 13:9)

7. ORIGEN AND ST. JUSTIN MARTYR ON THE NATURE OF GOD
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In the mid-third century the Christian philosopher Origen wrote, “The Jews indeed, but also some of our people, supposed that God should be understood as a man, that is, adorned with human members and human appearance. But the philosophers despise these stories as fabulous and formed in the likeness of poetic fictions.” (9) As Origen indicated, anthropomorphism seems to have been the standard Jewish interpretation during the first centuries of Christianity,

I shall comment at length on the somewhat complex topic of anthropomorphism later, but as for Origen himself (whom, I am happy to see, is regarded as a “Christian” by Dr. Bickmore, as Tertullian was), he, too, writing around 230 A.D., believes God to be a spirit:

. . . our mind is in itself unable to behold God Himself as He is . . . God, therefore, is not to be thought of as being either a body, or as existing in a body, but as a simple intellectual Being, admitting within Himself no addition of any kind . . . He is the mind and source from which every intellectual being or mind takes its beginning. (The Fundamental Doctrines, 1, 1, 6, in Jurgens, ibid., vol. 1, 193; cf. 1, 1, 8)

and we find the Christian philosopher Justin Martyr making the same generalization about Jewish teachers in a discussion with his Jewish acquaintance, Trypho, in the mid-second century:

And again, when He says, “I shall behold the heavens, the works of Thy fingers,” unless I understand His method of using words, I shall not understand intelligently, but just as your teachers suppose, fancying that the Father of all, the unbegotten God, has hands and feet, and fingers, and a soul, like a composite being; and they for this reason teach that it was the Father Himself who appeared to Abraham and to Jacob. (10)

Of course, Justin Martyr’s own view (c. 155) was also orthodox:

God alone is unbegotten and incorruptible, which is why He is God. Everything else after Him is produced and corruptible. (Dialogue With Trypho the Jew, 5, in Jurgens, ibid., vol. 1, 58)

He himself attributes the OT theophanies to the pre-incarnate Jesus:

. . . Jesus Christ . . . appearing at one time in the guise of fire, and at another time as an incorporeal image . . . Although the Jews were always of the opinion that it was the Father of all who had spoken to Moses, it was in fact the Son of God . . . they are, therefore, justly accused by both the Prophetic Spirit and by Christ Himself of knowing neither the Father nor the Son. (First Apology, 63, in Jurgens, ibid., vol. 1, 54-55)

8. COMPARISON OF THE TEACHINGS OF ST. IRENAEUS AND MORMONISM ON GOD
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During the period when the philosophical concept of God was being adopted in Christianity, a moderate position was adopted by some writers, who tried to harmonize a literal interpretation of biblical anthropomorphism with the new doctrine. For instance, Irenaeus, who wrote during the late second century, explicitly stated belief in a philosophical concept of God the Father (11), but stated that the Son was the one who appeared in human form to Moses and the prophets. (12) Irenaeus also said this:

But man He fashioned with His own hands, taking of the purest and finest of earth, in measured wise mingling with the earth His own power; for He gave his frame the outline of His own form, that the visible appearance too should be godlike — for it was an image of God that man was fashioned and set on earth. (13)

I’m delighted that Dr. Bickmore brought up St. Irenaeus (fl. late 2nd cent.), whom he claims takes a “moderate position” — as if his view were at all inclined towards the Mormon heresy. This will provide a classic case study of the selective and fanciful presentation (whether deliberate or not) of a patristic (or biblical) view according to a preconceived bias, when in fact — demonstrably, upon closer examination — no such view existed on the part of the one cited.

Dr. Bickmore got this extract from a work edited by Johannes Quasten. It so happens that I have in my library this great patristic scholar’s four-volume Patrology (Allen, TX: Christian Classics, n.d.). In volume 1, the question of Irenaeus’ theology of God and anthropology (doctrine of man) is taken up. Speaking of Irenaeus’ view of Genesis 1:26-27 and God’s image, Dr. Quasten writes (pp. 294-295):

. . . the words, ‘Let us make man after our image and likeness’ are addressed by the Father to the Son and the Holy Spirit, whom Irenaeus allegorically calls the ‘hands of God’ (Adv Haer. 5, 1, 3; 5, 5 ,1; 5 ,2 8,1)

In other words, the reference to bodily image was (so it would seem) a reference to Christ the incarnate God, and the image of the invisible God, precisely as in orthodox Christianity, and as I argued above. Tertullian held the same view, even as a Semi-Montanist, some 10-20 years later (The Resurrection of the Dead, 6,4), and St. Athanasius teaches it, c. 318 A.D. in his Treatise Against the Pagans, 34:3-4). Note how the “hands of God” are meant allegorically to refer to the Spirit and the Son, not literally God the Father, as Mormon exegesis would have it. St. Irenaeus writes:

When he became incarnate and was made man, he recapitulated in himself the long history of man, summing up and giving us salvation in order that we might receive again in Christ Jesus what we had lost in Adam, that is, the image and likeness of God. (Against Heresies, 3, 18,1;  from Quasten, ibid., vol. 1, 296)

Thus, “the image and likeness of God” for Irenaeus, as for St. Paul, as I think I have shown above, is a spiritual, not a physical concept. We get it back by being saved by Christ, not by merely being human and having a body which is fashioned after that of God the Father. It’s very simple: he says that we lost the image. Since we still have bodies and faces, obviously, he must mean image in a non-physical, spiritual sense. So he is not trying to “harmonize” two conflicting views, as Dr. Bickmore would have us believe; rather, he is simply being consistent with the orthodox Christian and biblical tradition concerning the true nature of the true God. There is no conflict of competing and contrary worldviews here.

Dr. Bickmore, in his footnote #13 for Irenaeus, cites the Church father’s teaching in Against Heresies, 5:6:1 as a corroborating example of the alleged “middle position” Irenaeus is supposedly trying to take with regard to the “image of God” and a physical, “anthropomorphized” god vs. a “Greek philosophical” one. Dr. Quasten describes this passage as a description of “the perfect man who is created after the image of God” (p. 309):

For by the hands of the Father, that is, by the Son and the Spirit, man, and not merely a part of man, was made in the likeness of God . . . the perfect man consists of the commingling and the union of the soul receiving the Spirit of the Father, and the mixture of that fleshly nature which was also moulded after the image of God . . . when the spirit here blended with the soul is united to the body, the man becomes spiritual and perfect because of the outpouring of the Spirit, and this is he who was made in the image and likeness of God . . . if any one take away the image and set aside the body, he cannot then understand this as being a man . . . the commingling and union of all three constitutes the perfect man. (Against Heresies, 5:6:1, in Quasten, ibid., vol. 1, 309-310)

St. Irenaeus, then, is arguing that man consists of body, soul, and spirit, and that to take away any of these components is to deprive man of his essence, as a being made in the image and likeness of God. This has nothing to do with a claim that God the Father has a physical body. We have seen that Irenaeus was referring to the incarnate Christ (not the Father) when he commented on Genesis 1:26-27, and when he refers to theophanies, as Dr. Bickmore himself acknowledged above. He holds, in the same work, that God is eternal and immutable and simple and omnipresent:

God differs from man in this, that God makes, but man is made. Surely that which makes is always the same; but that which is made must receive a beginning, a middle, addition, and increase. (Against Heresies, 4, 11 ,2, in Jurgens, ibid., vol. 1, 94)

Far removed is the Father of all from those things which operate among men, the affections and the passions. He is simple, not composed of parts, without structure, altogether like and equal to Himself alone. He is all mind, all spirit, all thought, all intelligence, all reason . . . (Against Heresies, 2, 13, 3, in Jurgens, ibid., vol. 1, 87)

Who knows the measure of His right hand? . . . that hand which measures immensity; that hand by which by its own measure takes the measure of the heavens, and which holds in its palm the earth and its depths; which contains in itself the width and length and depth below and height above of all creation; which is seen and heard and understood, and which is invisible? (Against Heresies, 4, 19, 2, in Jurgens, ibid., vol. 1, 96)

Therefore, none of this argumentation from St. Irenaeus supports the Mormon theology of God at all; not in the slightest. His is no “moderate position.” It is an orthodox Christian, biblical position.

That God the Father is a spirit was attested to by the early Church Fathers Aristides of Athens, c. 140 (Apology, 4), Tatian the Syrian, c. 165-175 (Address to the Greeks, 4), Athenagoras, c. 177 (Supplication for the Christians, 10), the Catholic-period Tertullian, c. 197 (Apology, 21,11), St. Cyril of Jerusalem, c. 350 (Catechetical Lectures, 6,11), and St. Hilary of Poitiers, c. 365 (Commentary on Ps 129 [130], section 3).

The Shepherd of Hermas (c. 155), a generation earlier than Irenaeus, expresses the orthodox and biblical view of God the Father:

God is one . . . He created all things and set them in order, and brought out of non-existence into existence everything that is, and . . . He contains all things while He Himself is uncontained. (in Jurgens, ibid., vol. 1, 34)

Likewise, St. Theophilus of Antioch, writing c. 181:

It is the attribute of God — of the Most High and Almighty and of the living God — not only to be everywhere, but also to hear all and to see all; for He can in no way be contained in a place . . . God is not contained, but is Himself the place of everything . . .You will, therefore, say to me, “You said that God cannot be contained in a place. How now, then, do you say that He walked around in Paradise?” . . . His Word, through whom He created all things, being His Power and His Wisdom, assuming the person of the Father and Lord of the universe, went to the garden in the person of God, and talked with Adam . . . And what else is this voice, but the Word of God, which also is His Son, — not as poets and writers of myths tell of the sons of gods begotten of intercourse, but, as truth recounts, the Word which always exists internally in the heart of God? For before anything was created, He had this Counsellor, being His own Mind and Thought . . . The Word, then, being God and being generated from God, is sent to any place at the will of the Father of the universe; and when He comes, having been sent by Him and being found in place, He is both heard and seen. (To Autolycus, 2,3; 2,22, in Jurgens, ibid., vol. 1, 74, 76)

9. WHAT WAS THE “STANDARD JEWISH CONCEPT” OF GOD IN THE FIRST CENTURY?
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So on the nature of God we can make the following points:

1. The standard Jewish concept of God during the early Christian period was anthropomorphic.

Only in the sense of describing Him in human terms so that He could be understood at all; not literally, especially not in this period, where — in their reaction against polytheism and idolatry — they placed extreme emphasis on their belief that God was a spirit. I’ve dug up three sources in my library which can speak fairly authoritatively to this question, from the Jewish religious, archaeological, and history of theology perspectives. First, I cite Rabbi Isidore Epstein, a very learned scholar, who also had doctorates in philosophy and literature. A prolific author, he edited the 36-volume Babylonian Talmud in English. I think we can safely say that he would know what Jews have believed about God’s attributes and nature. I quote from the standard reference work, Judaism (Baltimore: Pelican Books, 1959, 136-138):

Next to the doctrine of His unity is that of His omnipotence . . . His power has no other limit than His will. Even the forces of Nature are subject to His will, and all events, whatever their character — whether so-called natural or supernatural — are equally the immediate work of His hands. Judaism further emphasizes God’s omnipresence . . . not necessarily in the sense that God is co-extensive with creation, but that His providence extends over all creation . . .Closely connected with the idea of the transcendence of God is that of divine incorporeality. God is, in Jewish teaching, pure spirit, free from all limitations of matter and weaknesses of the flesh. The doctrine of divine incorporeality is among the oldest in Hebrew scriptures and lies at the basis of the prohibition of graven images. The anthropomorphic descriptions of God that abound in the Bible have from the earliest times been understood as mere figures of speech employed to impress upon the mind the reality and providence of God and to instruct man in the knowledge of His ways. ‘We describe God,’ in the words of the Talmud, ‘by terms borrowed from His creation in order to make them intelligible to the human ear.’ (Mekilta on Exodis 19.18).

Another attribute stressed by Judaism is God’s omniscience . . . God is also ‘living and existing to eternity’ (Midrash Leviticus Rabbah, vi, 6). He is ‘the everlasting’ (Chei-ha-Olamim) . . . His omnipotence holds out the certainty of His over-ruling power to control all things towards the ultimate triumph of His purpose. His omnipresence and omniscience carry with them the assurance that no machination, whether in thought, word, or deed, can circumvent the ultimate realization of His purpose. His transcendence and incorporeality free Him from all limitations of Nature or matter, which would prove a hindrance to fulfillment; whilst His eternity is a guarantee that His purpose, however thwarted and delayed, will in the end prevail. ‘For the Lord of hosts hath purposed, who shall disannul it?’ (Is. 14.27).

William Foxwell Albright was one of the greatest archaeologists of all time, an Orientalist, biblical scholar, and Professor of Semitic Languages at Johns Hopkins University. He received honorary degrees from Yale, and four well-known Jewish colleges, among others. In his Archaeology and the Religion of Ancient Israel (Garden City, New York: 1969 [orig. 1942], 112-113), he states:

We may reconstruct, in very broad lines, a rough picture of what Yahwism was like in the eleventh century B.C., after the process of consolidation had reached a relatively stable phase . . . We begin with the concept of Yahweh Himself, presupposing the monotheistic point of view which we have described elsewhere as consisting essentially of the following elements: belief in the existence of only one God, who is the Creator of the world and the giver of all life; the belief that God is holy and just, without sexuality or mythology; the belief that God is invisible to man except under special conditions and that no graphic nor plastic representation of Him is permissible; the belief that God is not restricted to any part of His creation, but is equally at home in heaven, in the desert, or in Palestine; the belief that God is so far superior to all created beings, whether heavenly bodies, angelis messengers, demons, or false gods, that He remains absolutely unique.

Lastly, I cite a book called The Theology of God: Commentary (edited by Edmund J. Fortman, Milwaukee: Bruce Pub. Co., 1968):

There is no trace of speculation among the Hebrews about the origin of God. Yahweh has no history, no consort . . . , no family; he is just there from the start. His preexistence and endless continuance are taken for granted. The world has a beginning, God has none [Ps 90:2-3 cited] . . . Creative power is seen to imply eternal (or better, everlasting) existence [Job 38:4 ff.; Pr 8:22 ff. cited in a footnote] . . .Once the notion of God as Creator became clear, the Israelites began to realize that God is not only present to them, but present everywhere [cites Ps 139: 8 ff.] . . .

God is “Completely Other,” Unchangeable, a Spirit . . . if the men of the Bible are aware of God’s presence, they are even more conscious of the fundamental distinction between God and man; that the distance is in fact infinite. God is, then, “completely other” or transcendent. Though many anthropomorphic expressions are used to show God’s closeness, and especially that he is a living person inviting us to a personal relationship, nonetheless he remains wholly other. he is not a man but God [Hos 11:9 in footnote]. The “otherness” of God is recognized in his unchangeableness. [Mal 3:6 in footnote] . . . Everything else is fickle and changing, but not God. [Num 23:19; Ps 102:27 ff. in footnote] . . . The real basis for this “otherness” and unchangeableness of God, this big difference between God and men, is given us by Isaiah [31:3]: namely, the one is Spirit, the other flesh. (Wilfrid F. Dewan, 3-5; from The One God [Englewood Cliffs, New Jersey: Prentice-Hall, Inc., 1963, 60-68] )

To the prophets, . . . the God of Sinai, enthroned amid clouds of storm and fire, . . . appeared rather as the God of the Covenant, without image or form, unapproachable in his holiness . . .The Jewish God-idea, of course, had to go through many stages of development before it reached the concept of a transcendental and spiritual god. It was necessary first . . . that a strictly imageless worship impress the people with the idea that Israel’s God was both invisible and incorporeal . . . Centuries of gradual ripening of thought were still necessary for the growth of this conception . . . Israel’s sages required centuries of effort to remove all anthropomorphic and anthropopathic notions of God, and thus to elevate him to the highest realm of spirituality. Yet . . . while Judaism insists on the Deity’s transcending all finite and sensory limitations, it never lost the sense of the close relationship between man and his Maker . . . God is all in all; he is over all; he is both immanent and transcendent. (K. Kohler [Jewish], 7-8; from Jewish Theology [New York: The Macmillan Co., 1923], 52-63, 72-84)

In conclusion, we see that the overwhelming, almost inexorable trend in Jewish thought about God was — contrary to Dr. Bickmore’s claim — definitely away from a crude physical notion and tendency to anthropomorphism (even though the latter is said by biblical commentators to be simply a literary device to aid in understanding, not a metaphysical blueprint for the actual appearance of God in His essence). This was already in full force, according to the biblical archaeologist Dr. Albright, as far back as the 11th century B.C. , even before the time of King David. This trend and legitimate development did not reverse itself, but became more and more decisive in Judaism as time went on.

2. We find some anthropomorphic statements such as Stephen’s vision of the Father and Son in the New Testament.

This is a common Hebrew literary device, and serves to prove my point. The “right hand” in Hebrew thought signified “power” (see, e.g., Ex 15:6,12, Job 40:14, Ps 18:35, 20:6, 31:15, 1 Kings 2:19, Is 41:10, etc.). The Hebrew yad (“hand”) is actually translated “power” in Joshua 8:20. And Jesus stated at His trial (Mk 14:52; RSV):

“. . . you will see the Son of Man seated at the right hand of Power, and coming with the clouds of heaven.”

So Stephen saw an actual or symbolic vision which was nothing more than a representation of what Jesus had already stated, before His trial, during it, and after His Resurrection:

MATTHEW 11:27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: . . . [cf. Jn 16:15, 17:10]

*

MATTHEW 28:18 . . . All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

10. MORMON CONFUSION CONCERNING CHRISTIANITY AND PHILOSOPHY
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3. The concept of God adopted by later Christians was identical in essentials to that taught by the contemporary Greek philosophical schools.

Whatever philosophy was consistent with Chrisianity would not be improper to utilize (as we saw Paul do in Athens). But to assert that none of these attributes of God were present in Hebrew thought prior to the rise of Greek philosophy, is patently false, as the abundant biblical and historical evidences presented above and below testify. What is radically new are the various false notions of the heretics. Gnostics, e.g., were far more influenced by Platonic philosophy, taken in a certain direction, than Christianity ever was.

So we are told by the LDS that there was a total apostasy. To even have a “complete apostasy,” however, by definition, there must be some trace of what was forsaken in the record of primitive Christianity and the Judaism which preceded it in God’s progressive revelation and history of salvation — in the Bible itself. I maintain that distinctive Mormon theology is absolutely absent from Scripture. All Dr. Bickmore has given us so far as a supposed compelling proof is the misinterpreted text of man being made in God’s image, and equally mistaken constant recourse to Hebrew biblical anthropomorphism, as if this proves that God the Father has a body (more on this below).

As always, Catholicism maintains the sensible ground of orthodoxy. The Gnostics, Docetics, and various other heretics taught that matter was evil, and denied the goodness of the Incarnation and creation. Mormons, in effect, seem to believe that spirit is evil (or at least far inferior), making even God the Father material and sexual (so that God is made in man’s image, rather than the biblical vice versa). Catholics take the biblical position that both matter and spirit are very good: God the Father is a Spirit, and God the Son is incarnate: “the Word became flesh.” The true Church doesn’t have to slant one way or another, according to some fashionable false philosophy which arbitrarily decries something or other in God’s creation or in God’s nature as “unacceptable.”

4. No Christian writers are known to have explicitly taught a philosophical concept of God before the mid-second century.

i) This assertion depends on the definition of “philosophical concept of God.” Who determines that, and on what basis; with what unimpeachable authority?

ii) One has to establish that philosophy is a bad and unbiblical and unChristian thing through and through, which would be quite difficult to do, persuasively or authoritatively. Jesus said that we are to love God with our “mind” as well as all our heart, soul, and strength. The nature of the historical proofs he offered for His Resurrection, and His miracles in general — though they are more properly classified as legal-type proofs — nevertheless do not suggest an antithesis to philosophy or the reasoning with which it begins and builds itself.

iii) Dr. Bickmore assumes that the basic concepts which Christian philosophy has built upon were entirely absent from pre-philosophical, practical, not particularly abstract Jewish theology, which is manifestly not the case. The concepts may have been, and indeed were, present in kernel, or in relatively undefined and unsystematic form. This gets into the inevitability of increased understanding and development of doctrine. The Greek heritage of rationality and systematic thought is a good thing, provided it is used by the Christian (and the Christian Church) with wisdom, just as the Roman genius for organization was good for the Church, which incorporated it into itself and “baptized” it for the sake of the kingdom (while Communism and Naziism also used organization for ill and evil ends).

iv) Paul arguably was “doing philosophical theology” on Mars Hill in Athens, and on numerous occasions where we are informed that he was arguing and disputing with the pagan philsophers (e.g., Acts 17:17-18, 18:4, 19:9-10). We know that he was very well-educated by the rabbi Gamaliel, and this certainly would have included some philosophy, in that Hellenic-influenced environment (in Asia Minor), at that time. Why would God have allowed the premier Christian evangelist among the Apostles to have been brainwashed by (and to engage in) damaging, diabolical “philosophy”?

v) In order to make a rational, believable argument that “philosophy is a bad thing” one must paradoxically and ironically adopt some sort of philosophy themselves, if only the syllogistic logic which itself was derived initially from the ancient Greeks, who are apparently so despised in the Mormon worldview, and siezed upon as the scapegoat for the supposed total apostasy of Christianity (until rescued from oblivion by Joseph Smith some 1700 years later). It is inescapable, and I firmly believe the proverb: “the most dangerous philosophy is the unacknowledged one.”

5. Some of the earliest Christians to adopt the philosophical definitions took Biblical anthropomorphism quite literally, but ascribed it to the Son.

True, as I would do, and as many orthodox Catholics and Protestants and Orthodox would do. This is, of course, mostly applicable to the theophanies.

6. Therefore, we can see a definite trend from Jewish anthropomorphism toward the God of the philosophers.

But Dr. Bickmore — apart from his demonstrably inaccurate characterization of the actual history — sees this as a corruption, whereas I contend that ancient and Christian-era Judaism could legitimately develop into Christianity, incorporating, among other things, philosophy as a “handmaiden” of theology (it is not an “either/or” scenario), so that Christianity could be a reasonable faith, not antithetical to the mind and the thinking person, and to be able to give reasons for itself (1 Peter 3:15-16) beyond the simplistic and epistemologically inadequate “burning in the bosom” as some sort of persuasive rationale to believe in anything.

3. Joseph Smith, Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, edited by Joseph Fielding Smith (Salt Lake City; Deseret Book Company, 1976), 345.
4. D&C; 130:22.
5. George Brantl, Catholicism (New York: George Braziller, 1962), 41.
6. Genesis 1:26-27.
7. Christopher Stead, Philosophy in Christian Antiquity (Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1994), 120.
8. Tertullian, — Against Marcion 2:27,– The Ante-Nicene Fathers, edited by Alexander Roberts and James Donaldon, 10 volumes (Buffalo, New York: The Christian Literature Publishing Company, 1885-1896), 3:319. Hereafter cited as ANF.
9. Origen, Homilies on Genesis 3:1, translated by Ronald E. Heine (Washington, D.C.: The Catholic University of America Press, 1982), 89. (From the Fathers of the Church translation series.)
10. Justin Martyr, — Dialogue With Trypho 114,– ANF 1:256.
11. Irenaeus, — Against Heresies 4:3:1, — ANF 1:465.
12. Irenaeus, — Against Heresies 4:7:2-4, — ANF 1:470.
13. Irenaeus, — Proof of the Apostolic Preaching 11, — in Ancient Christian Writers: The Works of the Fathers in Translation, edited by Quasten, Johannes, and J.C. Plumpe (Washington, D.C.: The Catholic University of America): 16:54; see also — Against Heresies 5:6:1, — ANF 1:531.

11. BIBLICAL/HEBREW ANTHROPOMORPHISM DEFINED AND EXAMINED
 

The Old Testament is filled with theophanies (literally, Godforms), instances where God spoke or revealed Himself in angelic manifestations, and it is accepted by all Old testament scholars almost without qualification that anthropomorphisms (ascribing human characteristics to God) are the logical explanation of many of the encounters of God with man. To argue, as the Mormons do, thatsuch occurrences indicate that God has a body of flesh and bone . . . is on the face of the matter untenable . . . they have overlooked one important factor. This factor is that of literary metaphor, extremely common in Old Testament usage. If the Mormons are to be consistent in their interpretation, they should find great difficulty in the Psalm where God is spoken of as “covering with his feathers,” and man “trusting under his wings.” If God has eyes, ears, arms, hands, nostrils, mouths, etc., why then does He not have feathers and wings? The Mormons have never given a satisfactory answer to this, because it is obvious that the anthropomorphic and metaphorical usage of terms relative to God are literary devices to convey His concern and association with man. In like manner, metaphors such as feathers and wings indicate His tender concern for the protection of those who “dwell in the secret place of the Most High and abide under the shadow of the Almighty” . . . Jesus was not a door (John 10:9), . . . a vine (John 15:1), a roadway (John 14:6), . . . and other metaphorical expressions any more than “our God is a consuming fire” means that Jehovah should be construed as a blast furnace or a volcanic cone. (Walter Martin, The Kingdom of the Cults, Minneapolis: Bethany House Publishers, revised edition, 1985, 207-208)

How the Holy Ghost became a god without ever assuming a body (necessary for every other male to reach godhood) has never been answered satisfactorily. The Apostle James Talmage argues that God must have a body of parts and passions, because “an immaterial body cannot exist,” yet he accepts the idea of the Holy Ghost as being a god who is pure spirit . . .The only anthropomorphic references to God in the Book of Mormon are several references to the finger of God, but as Harry Ropp points out, “This anthropomorphism does not prove that God has a physical body any more than Psalm 91:4 (KJV), ‘He shall cover thee with his feathers, and under his wings shalt thou trust,’ Proves that God is a cosmic chicken.” God is called “Great Spirit” (Alma 18:26-28) in the Book of Mormon, but he is never referred to as a glorified man . . . By the same argument Mormons should believe that the Holy Ghost has the glorified body of a dove (see Mt 3:16). Of course, they do not. (Donald S. Tingle, Mormonism, Downers Grove, Illinois: InterVarsity Press, 1981, 33-34 / James Talmage, A Study of the Articles of Faith [Salt Lake City: The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, 1975], 48 / Harry Ropp, The Mormon Papers [Downers Grove, Illinois: InterVarsity Press, 1977], 93)

This anthropomorphic procedure called forth Divine rebuke so early as Ps 50:21: “Thou thoughtest that I was altogether such a one as thyself” . . . But . . . even that rich storehouse of aparently crude anthropomorphisms, the OT, when it ascribes to Deity physical characters, mental and moral attributes, like those of man, merely means to make the Divine nature and operations intelligible, not to transfer to Him the defects and limitations of human character and life . . . It is of the essence of religious consciousness to recognize the analogy subsisting between God’s relations to man, and man’s relations to his fellow . . .It is a mere modern — and rather umillumined — abuse of the term anthropomorphic which tries to affix it, as a term of reproach, to every hypothetical endeavor to frame a conception of God. In the days of the Greeks, it was only the ascription to the gods of human or bodily form that led Xenophanes to complain of anthropomorphism. This Xenophanes naturally took to be an illegitimate endeavor to raise one particular kind of being — one form of the finite — into the place of the Infinite. Hence he declared, “There is one God, greatest of all gods and men, who is like to mortal creatures neither in form nor in mind.”

But the progressive anthropomorphism of Greece is seen less in the humanizing of the gods than in the claim that “men are mortal gods,” the idea being, as Aristotle said, that men become gods by transcendent merit. In this exaltation of the nature of man, the anthropomorphism of Greece is in complete contrast with the anthropomorphism of Israel, which was prone to fashion its Deity, not after the likeness of anything in the heavens above, but after something in the earth beneath. (The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia, ed. James Orr, Grand Rapids, Michigan: Eerdmans, 1956, vol. 1 of 5, 152-153, “Anthropomorphism”)

It looks as though the revival of Greek pagan mythology and religious philosophy is all on the side of Mormonism, rather than with Judaism and Christianity. So this turns Dr. Bickmore’s historical argument and polemical scenario upside down. If Mormon doctrine is grounded in any ancient (i.e., before Christ) historical teaching at all (as it is not found in the Bible or the Book of Mormon), this is perhaps the closest we will come to discovering it: pagan Greek polytheism.

The Bible states that humanity was created in the image of God, but what does it mean to be created in the image of God? Clearly, we are not created in the physical image of God, because Judaism steadfastly maintains that God is incorporeal and has no physical appearance. Maimonides points out that the Hebrew words translated as “image” and “likeness” in Genesis 1,27 do not refer to the physical form of a thing. The word for “image” in Genesis 1,27 is “tzelem”, which refers to the nature or essence of a thing, as in Psalms 73,20, “you will despise their image (tzel’mam)”. You despise a person’s nature and not a person’s physical appearance. The word for physical form, Maimonides explains, is “to’ar”, as in Genesis 39,6, “and Joseph was beautiful of form (to’ar) and fair to look upon”. Similarly, the word used for “likeness” is “demut”, which is used to indicate a simile, not identity of form. For example, “He is like (damuno) a lion” in Psalms 17,12 refers not to similar appearance, but to similar nature.What is it in our nature that is God-like? Rashi explains that we are like God in that we have the ability to understand and discern. Maimonides elaborates that by using our intellect, we are able to perceive things without the use of our physical senses, an ability that makes us like God, who perceives without having physical senses. (From the Jewish Torah 101 website [Mechon Mamre], “Human Nature”)

A term used in its widest sense to signify the tendency of man to conceive the activities of the external world as the counterpart of his own. A philosophic system which borrows its method from this tendency is termed Philosophic Anthropomorphism. The word, however, has been more generally employed to designate the play of that impulse in religious thought. In this sense, Anthropomorphism is the ascription to the Supreme Being of the form, organs, operations, and general characteristics of human nature. This tendency is strongly manifested in primitive heathen religions, in all forms of polytheism,especially in the classic paganism of Greece and Rome. The charge of Anthropomorphism was urged against the Greeks by their own philosopher, Xenophanes of Colophon. The first Christian apologists upbraided the pagans for having represented God, who is spiritual, as a mere magnified man, subject to human vices and passions.The Bible, especially the Old Testament, abounds in anthropomorphic expressions. Almost all the activities of organic life are ascribed to the Almighty. He speaks, breathes, sees, hears; He walks in the garden; He sits in the heavens, and the earth is His footstool. It must, however, be noticed that in the Bible locutions of this kind ascribe human characteristics to God only in a vague, indefinite way. He is never positively declared to have a body or a nature the same as man’s; and human defects and vices are never even figuratively attributed to Him. The metaphorical, symbolical character of this language is usually obvious. The all-seeing Eye signifies God’s omniscience; the everlasting Arms His omnipotence; His Sword the chastisement of sinners; when He is said to have repented of having made man, we have an extremely forcible expression conveying His abhorrence of sin.

The justification of this language is found in the fact that truth can be conveyed to men only through the medium of human ideas and thoughts, and is to be expressed only in language suited to their comprehension. The limitations of our conceptual capacity oblige us to represent God to ourselves in ideas that have been originally drawn from our knowledge of self and the objective world. The Scriptures themselves amply warn us against the mistake of interpreting their figurative language in too literal a sense. They teach that God is spiritual, omniscient, invisible, omnipresent, ineffable. Insistence upon the literal interpretation of the metaphorical led to the error of the Anthropomorphites.

. . . as mind and personality are the noblest forms of reality, we think most worthily of God when we conceive Him under the attributes of mind, will, intelligence, personality. At the same time, when the theologian or philosopher employs these and similar terms with reference to God, he understands them to be predicated not in
exactly the same sense that they bear when applied to man, but in a sense controlled and qualified by the principles laid down in the doctrine of analogy . . .

Anthropomorphites (Audians)

A sect of Christians that arose in the fourth century in Syria and extended into Scythia, sometimes called Audians, from their founder, Audius. Taking the text of Genesis, i, 27, literally, Audius held that God has a human form. The error was so gross, and, to use St. Jerome’s expression (Epist. vi, Ad Pammachium), so absolutely senseless, that it showed no vitality. Towards the end of the century it appeared among some bodies of African Christians. The Fathers who wrote against it dismiss it almost contemptuously. In the time of Cyril of Alexandria, there were some anthropomorphites among the Egyptian monks. He composed a short refutation of their error, which he attributed to extreme ignorance. (Adv. Anthrop. in P.G., LXXVI.) Concerning the charges of anthropomorphism preferred against Melito, Tertullian, Origen, and Lactantius, see the respective articles. The error was revived in northern Italy during the tenth century, but was effectually suppressed by the bishops, notably by the learned Ratherius, Bishop of Verona. (The Catholic Encyclopedia, Volume I, Copyright © 1907 by Robert Appleton Company; Online Edition Copyright © 1999 by Kevin Knight; written by James J. Fox; transcribed by Bob Elder)

We have at last found a heretical post-apostolic precursor to Mormonism: the Anthropomorphites, who arose in the fourth century. In another section below, we shall discover a few more likely candidates for background influence and origins of the peculiar, thoroughly unbiblical Mormon theology.

NUMBERS 23:19 God [is] not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent . . . (cf. 1 Sam 15:29)

ISAIAH 31:3 Now the Egyptians [are] men, and not God . . .

EZEKIEL 28:9 Wilt thou yet say before him that slayeth thee, I [am] God? but thou [shalt be] a man, and no God . . .

HOSEA 11:9 . . . I [am] God, and not man . . .

ACTS 17:29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man’s device.

ROMANS 1:20-23 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen . . . when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

. . . Behold, is not this the Great Spirit who doth send such great punishments upon this people . . .? . . . And they answered the king, and said: Whether he be the Great Spirit or a man, we know not . . . (Alma 18:2-3; cf. 18:4-5,11)

And then Ammon said: Believest thou that there is a Great Spirit? And he said, Yea. And Ammon said: This is God. And Ammon said unto him again: Believest thou that this Great Spirit, who is God, created all things which are in heaven and in the earth? And he said: Yea . . . (Alma 18:26-29; cf. 19:25-27)

And the king said: Is God that Great Spirit that brought our fathers out of the land of Jerusalem? And Aaron said unto him: Yea, he is that Great Spirit, and he created all things both in heaven and in earth . . . (Alma 22:9-10)

12. ACCORDING TO THE LOGIC OF MORMON ANTHROPOMORPHIC LITERALISM, GOD HAS WINGS, FEATHERS, IS A ROCK, A FIREBALL, BLEW HIS NOSE TO DROWN THE EGYPTIANS IN THE SEA, AND CARRIED THE ENTIRE HEBREW NATION IN HIS GIANT HAND

EXODUS 15:8 And with the blast of thy nostrils the waters were gathered together, the floods stood upright as an heap, and the depths were congealed in the heart of the sea.

PSALM 57:1 Be merciful unto me, O God, . . . in the shadow of thy wings will I make my refuge, . . . (cf. Ps 17:8, 36:7, 61:4, 63:7, Is 8:8, Mt 23:37, Lk 13:34)

PSALM 78:35 And they remembered that God was their rock, . . . (cf. Dt 32:4,15,18,37, 1 Sam 2:2, 2 Sam 22:32, Ps 18:2,31,46, 42:9)

PSALM 91:4 He shall cover thee with his feathers, and under his wings shalt thou trust . . .

DEUTERONOMY 9:26 I prayed therefore unto the LORD, and said, O Lord GOD, destroy not thy people and thine inheritance, which thou hast redeemed through thy greatness, which thou hast brought forth out of Egypt with a mighty hand. (cf. Dt 5:15, 7:8)

DEUTERONOMY 4:24 For the LORD thy God is a consuming fire, . . . (cf. Dt 9:3)

For further reading, see the superb, comprehensive, and copiously documented article: God: Incorporeal and Invisible, by William Kilgore, and Mormon Claims Answered (Chapter Two: God), from Jerald and Sandra Tanner’s profusely researched website, Utah Lighthouse Ministry.
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GO TO PART TWO

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Uploaded by Dave Armstrong on 22 December 2001, with the permission of Dr. Barry Bickmore.

Photo credit: The “Scannel Daguerreotype”: believed to possibly be a photograph of Mormon founder Joseph Smith (1805-1844) [public domain]

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January 19, 2018

Jesus3 - Copy

Very in-depth discussion on whether Jesus is God or not.

PART THREE

GO TO PART ONE

GO TO PART TWO

GO TO PART FOUR

 

11) JOHN 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

EGW EIMI is without significances, as it was a common phrase in Greek. For example, the blind man stated such in John 9:9, while Peter used the very same words in Acts 10:21.

Of course the lack of the implied predicate is the real issue (but the fact that John 8:24, 28 do have an implied predicate invalidates them as any proof text.)

Context is supremely important, as always. The relevant point is not that no one else ever said “I am” in other contexts, but that eternal existence was being described by the peculiar phrase: not “before x was, I was,” but rather, “before x was, I am.” Thus Robertson writes:

Undoubtedly here Jesus claims eternal existence with the absolute phrase used of God. The contrast between genesthai (entrance into existence of Abraham) and eimi (timeless being) is complete . . . (WPN, V, 158-159)

The Jews again immediately understood the import of the statement, which is why they tried to stone Jesus for blasphemy (8:59). Why would they do this if Jesus was merely saying something as innocuous as “I am Jesus”?! I don’t know what an “implied predicate” means. The fact remains that no predicate exists in any of these passages (Jn 8:24, 28, 58).

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You are here thinking in English, not Greek.

That would make perfect sense, since I don’t know Greek. But Roberston, Vincent, and other Greek scholars do (which is exactly why I cite them).

Greek often drops the predicate because of implication, and so in John 8:24 and 28, while it is not in the text, this is normal Greek grammar as per the implication of such. There is no theological significance. Neither is there any eternal statement within EGW EIMI as Robertson falsely states.

You are here thinking in heretical Arian categories, not orthodox trinitarian ones. I accept what the Greek scholar Robertson says about it.

There is no temporal element in it other than that there is a present state of being. EIMI is the present tense of “to be,” thus, taking the Greek construction into account; we find that Jesus was in a state of being before Abraham, though we are never told for how long before Abraham.

Just from a common-sense perspective, how is this coherent? You argue:

1. Only a present state is referred to.
2. But it also somehow refers to a time “before Abraham” (which contradicts #1).
3. So it is past and present simultaneously (????!!!!).

That’s nonsense (in the literal meaning of that word). It is contradictory and incoherent, but “timeless existence” is perfectly sensible and non-contradictory. Given the manmy biblical indications of Jesus’ eternal existence, that interpretation is the most reasonable one. The Bible doesn’t contradict itself.

We can dismiss EGW EIMI as being a name by two simple points. First, by the fact that it was simply a standard part of the Greek language. This is evident by the fact that others used it.

They said “I am” in normal discourse, but so what? They didn’t use it in the sense that Jesus did. He used it in the sense of Exodus 3:14, where God said to Moses:

I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

As usual, Jesus was claiming to be God.

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And when one translates Ex 3:14 so poorly, you can definitely get that idea. The Hebrew text here reads EHYEH ASHER EHYEH. Referencing Ex 3:12 in your KJV (or any other Bible), you will find the phrase “I will be.” This is properly translated from the Hebrew word EHYEH. It is not, and should not be translated as I AM, but as I WILL BE. For example, The Interpreter’s One-Volume Commentary on the Bible:

The meaning of is obscured by the conventional translation I am who I am., which implies that God is the ground of his own existence. The Hebrew verb denotes, not abstract being, but manifestation in a definite character, or name; and its form indicates habitual manifestation in past, present, or future. Since English requires a tense, the best rendering is ‘I will be as I will be.’

Further, Rabbi Jordan D. Cohen writes:

Moses perceived that the people would want to know which attribute of God they can expect to encounter; that is, what their experience of God will be, and what is going to happen to them. God’s answer, then, leaves things open-ended. Ehyeh-Asher-Ehyeh is based on the future tense conjugation of the Hebrew verb meaning “to be.” Often translated as “I Am Who I Am,” the phrase is more accurately translated as “I Will Be That Which I Will Be.” The people will come to know God through their unfolding experiences together.

But what of the LXX? Here it reads EGW EIMI hO WN. In this rendering, God is not claiming to be the I AM, but he is claiming to be the hO WN (THE BEING). Thus, Brenton properly renders Ex 3:14 LXX as, “And God spoke to Moses, saying, I am THE BEING; and he said, Thus shall ye say to the children of Israel, THE BEING has sent me to you.” Jesus never once identifies himself as “THE BEING,” and we can thus be certain that John 8:58 is in no way a reference to Ex 3:14.

You quote a Jewish rabbi; I will quote the great convert from Judaism: Alfred Edersheim, from his Life and Times of Jesus the Messiah:

He had spoken of Abraham seeing His day; they took it of His seeing Abraham’s day, and challenged its possibility. Whether or not they intended thus to elicit an avowal of His claim to eternal duration, and hence to Divinity, it was not time any longer to forbear the full statement, and, with Divine emphasis, He spake the words which could not be mistaken: ‘Verily, verily, I say unto you, before Abraham was, I AM.’It was as if they had only waited for this. Furiously they rushed from the Porch into the Court of the Gentiles, with symbolic significance, even in this, to pick up stones, and to cast them at Him . . . It had been the first plain disclosure and avowal of His Divinity . . . (Vol. 2, Chapter 8an)

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Second, in 8:58, but the use as a proper name simply does not fit. Let us consider:

Before Abraham came into existence, Dave.
Before Abraham came into existence, Steve.

Do these make sense? No.

Those names do not denote pure existence. “Dave” (as I should know) means “beloved.” So that sentence makes no sense. But if a timeless being calls Himself “I am,” as God did in the burning bush (precisely using the phrase as a name) and as Jesus did, it makes perfect sense, because the logical and relational contrast is between “before a certain being began, I existed. I am (I always was and always will be; I was never not existing).”

There is nothing within the verb EIMI that denotes eternal existence though. There is no linguistic basis for such a statement, only theology. It simply is the present tense of “to be.” Nothing more, nothing less. EGW EIMI does not state “I always was and always will be; I was never not existing.” That is simply a priori assumption placed on the text.

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If EGW EIMI is a proper name, it is functioning exactly as Dave and Steve do in these two accounts, and this is completely ungrammatical, so we know this perspective to be invalid.

Rather, your logic is invalid, because it would also rule out “Jehovah” (that is, YHWH, as the Jews referred to God) using “I am” as a name for Himself. We know that this happened; therefore it is possible.

Jehovah does not ever use “I am” as a name for himself though. Rather, he uses EHYEH ASHER EHYEH, or EGW EIMI hO WN. Never EGW EIMI. You are removing historical context of the tetragrammaton and the divine name usage of the Hebrew text all together in your above comment.

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Does it somehow denote eternal existence though? Well taking EIMI to its root form, we simply get ES, which means “to be.” In effect, EIMI is showing a state of being. In this case, a present state of being. Now, PRIN is an adverb showing him in a prior state, that is “before Abraham,” and more specifically before his coming into existence. So, he is a state of being before Abraham. That is all that is stated by this. A specific time limit is not placed, it could be eternity or it could be one hour. It does not say.

Then Jesus should have said “I was” (which would denote existence prior to Abraham, but not necessarily eternal existence. Instead, He used “I am” — which implies eternal existence since it is a present tense applied to a distant past, and because God the Father used it, and we both agree that He is eternal. Greek lexicons agree (as always) with the orthodox trinitarian interpretation:

. . . ego eimi as a self-designation of Jesus in Jn. 8:58 (cf. 8:24; 13:19) stands in contrast to the genesthai applied to Abraham. Jesus thus claims eternity. As he is equal to the Father (5:18 ff.), what is ascribed to the Father is attributed to him, too (cf. Is. 43:10 LXX). The context and the ego formulation are both Jewish. The point is not Jesus’ self-identification as the Messiah (“I am he”) but his supratemporal being. (Kittel, TDNT, 207)

Likewise, Marvin Vincent’s Word Studies in the New Testament (Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans, 1946; originally 1887; vol. 2 of 4, 181; hereafter “WSN”) states:

Jesus’ life was from and to eternity. Hence the formula for absolute, timeless existence, I am (ego eimi).

The Commentary on the Whole Bible, by Robert Jamieson, A.R. Fausset, and David Brown (Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan: 1961; originally 1864; hereafter “JFB”) states:

The words rendered “was” and “am” are quite different. The one clause means, ‘Abraham was brought into being‘; the other, ‘I exist.’ The statement therefore is not that Christ came into existence before Abraham did (as Arians affirm is the meaning), but that He never came into being at all, but existed before Abraham had a being; in other words, existed before creation, or eternally (as ch. 1:1). (p. 1047)

Nobody is saying that the verse indicates Christ coming into being. Rather, the truth of the matter is that there is nothing implied for the amount of prior existence. It could be a month, a year, eternity. It does not say! You can quote these commentaries, but not one of these deal with the fact of the construction. John 8:58 is an established example of the Present of Past Action idiom (PPA). A number of Greek grammars can be referenced on this fact. As long as you continue to think of it as English, you will continue to make these errors because you ignore the Greek idiom. In this particular case, PRIN is setting the EGW EIMI in the past. That is, Jesus was in a state of being (EIMI) prior to Abraham. That is the only thing stated here. Nothing more.

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Regarding this, there are a variety of alternative translations to this verse. For example, C.B. Williams renders this as “I existed before Abraham was born.”

An eternal being would exist before Abraham; correct . . . but “am” and “existed” are not exactly synonyms.

Yes, in Greek they could be considered synonyms. The initial definition provided by Thayer is actually “to exist.” Liddell-Scott and many other provide “to exist” as well, so lexically, they are very much synonyms. But that said, yes an eternal being would exist before Abraham, as would angels, who are not eternal.

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On this verse, the Lockman foundation, the people behind the NASB, have stated regarding the footnote stating “I have been” as an alternate translation from the 1970 edition, that “The translation “I have been” was originally given simply as a smoother, more grammatically correct (in English) rendering…”

So that said, John 8:58 simply proves Jesus’ prior existence, nothing more.

The fact remains that “I am” is the overwhelming choice of Greek scholars. I have found 30 translations which use it: KJV, RSV, NRSV, NASB, ASV, NIV, NEB, REB, NAB, TEV, MLB, NKJV, CEV, Phillips, Amplified, Jerusalem, Confraternity, Rotherham, Barclay, Weymouth, Wuest, Douay, Darby, Knox, Geneva, Montgomery, Norlie, Jay Green Interlinear, Bible in Basic English, Young’s Literal Translation.

It is hardly the “overwhelming choice” that you make it out to be.

It certainly is among the most-used and most well-known Bible translations. Your list below contains scarcely any of those. And there is a reason for that. The “I am” rendering is indeed the best. It’s relevant to see what the majority of scholars think about that point (that’s why, after all, you and I have both been citing scholars all through this dialogue. Their opinions mean something).

You note the NASB as one translation that does it, but do not forget the 1970 ed. footnote renders it as “I have been.” Further, here are just some of the translations with alternate renderings:

New American Standard Bible (NASB) (margin 1960-1973 editions): Or, “I have been.”
The Living New Testament: “The absolute truth is that I was in existence before Abraham was ever born.”
The 20th Century New Testament: “before Abraham existed I was.”
The New Testament, An American Translation Goodspeed: “I tell you I existed before Abraham was born.”
The Complete Bible, An American Translation Goodspeed: “I tell you I existed before Abraham was born.”
New Believers Bible, New Living Translation: “I existed before Abraham was even born.”
The New Testament, C. B. Williams: “I solemnly say to you, I existed before Abraham was born.”
The Book, New Testament: The absolute truth is that I was in existence before Abraham was ever born.”
The Living Bible: “I was in existence before Abraham was ever born.”
The Four Gospels, Lattimore: “Truly, truly I tell you, I am from before Abraham was born.”
The New Testament, From the Peshitta Text, Lamsa: “Before Abraham was born, I was.”
An American Translation, In The Language of Today, Beck: “I was before Abraham.”
New Testament Contemporary English Version: “I tell you.that even before Abraham was, I was, and I am.”
The Living Scriptures (Messianic Version): “I was in existence before Abraham was ever born.”
The Unvarnished New Testament: “Before Abraham was born, I have already been.”
The New Testament, Klist & Lilly: “I am here-and I was before Abraham.”
The New Testament in the Language of the People, Williams: “I existed before Abraham was born.”
The New Testament, Noyes: “From before Abraham was, I have been.”
A Translation of the Four Gospels, Lewis: “Before Abraham was, I have been.”
The Syriac New Testament, Murdock: “Before Abraham existed I was.”
The Curetonian Version of the Four Gospels, Burkitt: “Before Abraham came to be, I was.”
The Old Georgian Version of the Gospel of John, Blake & Briere: “Before Abraham came to be, I was.”
Nouvum Testamentum AEthiopice, Platt, Lepzip: “Before Abraham was born, I was.”
The New Testament Or Rather the New Covenant, Sharpe: “I was before Abraham was born.”
The 20th Century New Testament 1904: “Before Abraham existed I was already what I am.”
The New Testament, Stage: “Before Abraham came to be, I was.”
The Coptic Version the New Testament in the Southern Dialect, Horner: “Before Abraham became, I, I am being.”
The Documents of the New Testament, Wade: “Before Abraham came into being, I have existed.”
The New Testament in Hebrew, Delitzsh: Before Abraham was, I have been.”
The New Testament in Hebrew, Salkinson & Ginsberg: “I have been when there had as yet been no Abraham.”
The New Testament of Our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, Swan: “I existed before Abraham was born.”
The New Testament (in German) Pfaefflin: “Before there was an Abraham, I was already there.”
The Authentic New Testament, Schonfield: “I existed before Abraham was born.”
Biblia Sagdrada, Roman Catholic: “Before Abraham existed, I was existing.”
The New Testament of Our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, Noli: “I existed before Abraham was born.”
The Concise Gospel and The acts, Christianson: “I existed even before Abraham was born.”
A Translators Handbook to the Gospel of John, Nida: “Before Abraham existed, I existed, or.I have existed.”
The Simple English Bible: “I was alive before Abraham was born.”
The Original New Testament, Schonfield: “I tell you for a positive fact, I existed before Abraham was born.”
The Complete Gospels Annotated Scholars Version, Miller: “I existed before there was an Abraham.”

My attempt is not to see who can provide the most translations that agree with them, but rather I go into length in providing translations that agree with this rendering to show the errors of this line of proof. One or One Hundred Translations, the issue that needs to be addressed is the grammar. It’s pure foolishness to reason that the most translations wins or establishes a point more than the other. Quoting someone when you aren’t fit to conclude if the information is accurate or not would not be a valid argument; you are disproving your witness, and not fit to quote them on any other grounds than your theological bias, and that’s circular reasoning in its purest form.

Very well, then; I’ll take up your challenge. I have allowed you to go on and on about this on my website. Now it is my turn. Since I know nothing about either Greek or Hebrew grammar and linguistics, I will cite more people who do (if what I have already cited is not enough), and I will add some relevant exegetical arguments also. Christian apologist Sam Shamoun, in a superb Internet article responding to Muslim arguments against Jesus and trinitarianism, writes:

First, in the book of Revelation Christ identifies himself as “the Being” who has eternally existed, i.e. Yahweh:

“Look! He is coming with the clouds; every eye will see him, even those who pierced him; and on his account all the tribes of the earth will wail. So it is to be. Amen. ‘I am the Alpha and Omega’, says the Lord God, ‘The Being/The One (ho on) who is and who was and who is to come, the ALMIGHTY (pantokrator)’.” Revelation 1:7-8

Jesus Christ, the coming pierced One, identifies himself as “The Being” (ho on) who eternally exists, the Almighty. The phrase “who is and who was” refers to the eternal nature of God, and hence implicitly affirms that Jesus is Yahweh:

“And the angels of the waters say, `You are just, O Holy One, who are and who were, for you have judged these things; because they shed the blood of saints and prophets, you have given them blood to drink. It is what they deserve!’ And I heard the altar respond, ‘Yes, O Lord,the ALMIGHTY (pantokrator), your judgements are true and just!'” Rev. 16:5-7 NRSV

Therefore, Jesus in Revelation 1:8 is claiming to be the eternal God Yahweh.Second, Jesus’ “I AM” statements tie in with the Hebrew Ani Hu references of Isaiah:

“Listen to me, O Jacob, and Israel, whom I called: I AM HE (ani hu); I am the First, and I am the Last.” Isaiah 48:12 NRSV

That the phrase “I AM” in Isaiah implies Deity can be clearly seen in the following verses:

“Now then, listen, you wanton creature (i.e. Babylon), lounging in your security and saying to yourself, ‘I AM (Greek Septuagint- ego eimi), and there is none besides me’… You have trusted in your wickedness and have said, ‘No one sees me.’ Your wisdom and knowledge mislead you when you say to yourself, ‘I AM, and there is none besides me.'” Isaiah 47:8, 10

God rebukes Babylon for claiming to be the “I AM”, believing herself to be a God like Yahweh. Hence, the “I AM” is used to denote absolute Deity and sovereignty, being used as a synonym for Yahweh.Compare Yahweh’s words with Jesus:

“Then Jesus, knowing all that was to happen to him, came forward and asked them, ‘Whom are you looking for?’ They answered, ‘Jesus of Nazareth.’ Jesus replied, ‘I AM HE‘ (ego eimi)… When Jesus said to them, ‘I am he,’ they stepped back and fell to ground.” John 18:4-6 NRSV

The fact that the soldiers fell to the ground when Jesus uttered the words “I AM” affirms that the phrase served to identify Christ as Yahweh God. Otherwise, there would be no reason for the soldiers’ falling down to the ground.

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Finally, Jesus applies the very title of Yahweh in Isaiah 48:12, “First and Last,” to himself in Revelation 1:17-18:

“When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. But he placed his right hand on me, saying, `Do not be afraid; I am the First and the Last, and the living one. I was dead, and see I am alive forever and ever, and I have the keys of Death and Hades’.” NRSV

Hence, from no matter what angle we look at it, there is no escaping the fact that Jesus does identify himself as Yahweh God.(“I am or I was?”)

Shamoun writes: “Greek scholars such as Daniel B. Wallace explain why John 8:58 cannot be classified as a historical present”:

The text reads: prin ‘Abraam genesthai ego eimi (“before Abraham was, I am”). On this text, Dennis Light wrote an article in defense of the New World Translation in the Bible Collector (July-December, 1971). In his article he discusses ego eimi which the New Word Translation renders, “I have been.” Light defends this translation by saying, “The Greek verb eimi, literally present tense, must be viewed as a historical present, because of being preceded by the aorist infinitive clause referring to Abraham’s past” (p. 8). This argument has several flaws in it: (1) The fact that the present tense follows an aorist infinitive has nothing to do with how it should be rendered. In fact, historical presents are usually wedged in between aorist (or imperfect) indicatives, not infinitives. (2) If this is a historical present, it is apparently the only historical present in the NT that uses the equative verb eimi. The burden of proof, therefore, lies with the one who sees eimi as ever being used as a historical present. (3) If this is a historical present it is apparently the only historical present in the NT that is in other than the third person.The translation of the New World Translation understand the implications of ego eimi here, for in their footnote to this text in the NWT, they reveal their motive for seeing this as a historical present: “It is not the same as… (ho ohn, meaning ‘the Being’ or ‘The I Am’) at Exodus 3:14, LXX.” In effect, this is a negative admission that if ego eimi is not a historical present, then Jesus is here claiming to be the one who spoke to Moses at the burning bush, the I AM, the eternally existing one, Yahweh (cf. Exod. 3:14 in the LXX, ego eimi ho on).

(Daniel B. Wallace, Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics, Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1996, 530-531)

Christian apologist Robert M. Bowman Jr., comments on a 1957 Watchtower article which asserted that John 8:58 involved the “historical present,”:

The article in question was unable to cite any scholarly writings of any kind in support of their claim that John 8:58 was an historical present. Instead, they simply quoted definitions and illustrations of the idiom from two textbooks in Greek Grammar, Hadley and Allen’s Greek Grammar and A. T. Robertson’s massive Grammar. Ironically, these two sources themselves disprove that John 8:58 is an historical present, sometimes in the very words quoted by the Watchtower! The following points prove beyond reasonable doubt that the historical present is irrelevant to John 8:58.1. The historical present is an idiom in which past events are narrated, story-telling fashion, in the present tense, as a vivid, dramatic way of projecting the reader or listener into the narrative. In John 8:58, on the other hand, Jesus’ words do not tell a story or describe a past event, but instead simply state a comparison between Abraham and Jesus.

All of the Greek grammars agree on this understanding of the historical present. Hadley and Allen are cited by the Watchtower itself as stating that the idiom is used ‘in vivid narration.’ Robertson agrees. Some Grammars distinguish between the historical present used in records (sometimes called ‘annalistic’ use) and that used in narratives (usually called the ‘dramatic’); a few divide the dramatic between the historical narratives and reports of dreams and visions. According to Robertson, the New Testament uses the dramatic form of the historical present; but in any case, Christ’s words n John 8:58 do not fit any of these categories of historical presents.

This idiom is common in all languages, including English; Funk and Wagnall’s Standard Desk Dictionary defines it as ‘the present tense used to narrate a past event.’ In English it is most common in conversation, not writing. Robert Funk gives the following sentence as an example: ‘Then these guys come in see, and I say to them, “Where do you think you’re going?”‘ In both Greek and English, then, the historical present is defined and used the same way. There is simply no valid way to define historical presents to include John 8:58.

(Robert M. Bowman, Jr., Jehovah’s Witnesses, Jesus Christ, & the Gospel of John, Grand Rapids, MI; Baker Book House, 1995, 100-101)

Bowman continues his analysis of John 8:58:

What is it about this contrast between genesthai and eimi that has led to such a solid consensus throughout the centuries among biblical scholars that the words contrast created origin with uncreated eternal existence? By itself, of course, the word eimi does not connote eternal preexistence. However, placed alongside genesthai and referring to a time anterior to that indicated by genesthai, the word eimi (or its related forms), because it denotes simple existence and is a durative form of the verb to be, stands in sharp contrast to the aorist genesthai which speaks of ‘coming into being.’ It is this sharp contrast between being and becoming which makes it clear that in a text like John 8:58 eimi connotes eternality, not merely temporal priority . . .He (Jesus) chose the term that would most strongly contrast the created origin in time of Abraham with his own timeless eternality, the present tense verb eimi… Thus, had Jesus wished to say what JWs understand him to have said—that he merely existed for a long time before Abraham—he could have said so by saying, ‘Before Abraham came into existence, I was,’ using the imperfect tense emen instead of the present tense eimi. (This point was made by Chrysostom and Augustine, and reaffirmed by such Reformers as Calvin, and is also a standard observation found in most exegetical commentaries on John and never, to this author’s knowledge, disputed in such works.) Such a statement would have left open the question of whether or not Jesus had always existed, or whether (like the angels) he had existed from the earliest days of the universe’s history. Or, had he wished to make it clear that (as JWs believe) he had himself come into existence some time prior to Abraham, he could have said so by stating, ‘Before Abraham came into existence, I came into existence’ (by using the first person aorist egenomen instead of eimi), or perhaps more simply, ‘I came into existence before Abraham.’ Having said neither of these things, but rather, having chosen terms which went beyond these formulations to draw a contrast between the created and the uncreated, Jesus’ words must be interpreted as a claim to eternality. (Bowman, ibid., 114-116)

Prominent biblical commentator D.A. Carson, writes about John 8:58 in his commentary on John (PNTC series):

Once more Jesus solemnly announces, I tell you the truth. If he had wanted to claim only that he existed before Abraham, it would have been simpler to say, ‘before Abraham was, I was.’ Instead, bringing forward the use of ego eimi found in vv. 24, 28, Jesus says, ‘before Abraham was born, I am.’ Whatever doubts may attach themselves to whether or not ego eimi should be taken absolutely in vv. 24, 28, here there can be none.

Kenneth S. Wuest, well-known Greek scholar and Bible translator himself, wrote in his article: “The Deity of Jesus in the Greek Texts of John and Paul,” Bibliotheca Sacra, July 1962, 220-221:

The AV reports our Lord as saying to the Jews, “Before Abraham was, I am” (John 8:58 AV). “Was” is ginomai, the verb of “becoming,” not eimi, the verb of being. It is ingressive aorist, signifying entrance into a new condition. Our Lord said, “Before Abraham came into existence, I am.” He does not contrast Abraham’s previous existence with His eternity of existence, but Abraham’s coming into existence with His eternal being. There is a contrast between Abraham as a created being and our Lord as uncreated, the self-existent, eternal God.

The great Bible scholar C.H. Dodd concurs:

The implication is that Jesus does not stand within the temporal series of great men, beginning with Abraham and continuing through the succession of the prophets, so as to be compared with them. His claim is not that He is the greatest of the prophets, or even greater than Abraham himself. He belongs to a different order of being. The verb genesthai is not applicable to the Son of God at all. He stands outside the range of temporal relations. (C. H. Dodd, The Interpretation of the Fourth Gospel, Cambridge: Cambridge University, 1985 [1953], 261)

The late Catholic scholar Raymond E. Brown wrote:

Against this background the absolute use of ‘I AM’ by the Johannine Jesus becomes quite intelligible; he was speaking in the same manner in which Yahweh speaks in Deutero-Isaiah. For instance, in John 8:28 Jesus promises that when the Son of Man is lifted up (in return to the Father), ‘then you will know ego eimi’; in Isaiah 43:10 Yahweh has chosen Israel, ‘that you may know and believe me and understand ego eimi.’ The absolute Johannine use of ‘I AM’ has the effect of portraying Jesus as divine with (pre)existence as his identity, even as the Greek Old Testament understood the God of Israel. (Raymond E. Brown, Introduction to New Testament Christology, Paulist Press; Mahwah, NJ 1994, 139)

For an extremely in-depth further treatment of these grammatical issues concerning John 8:58, see the helpful and informative article by Sam Shamoun, cited above (I have linked it), and two additional excellent articles delving into John 8:58, the “I AM” passages of the Old Testament, and related issues, by this same writer (one / two).

12) JOHN 10:30-33 I and {my} Father are one. (31) Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. (32) Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? (33) The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

I believe there is more to the surrounding context than what’s being presented within this verse. How can you just leave out Jesus’ response to these very charges as if they are of no importance to the issue? I can only hope you may have done this in error, not by intentional dishonesty.

No need to become alarmed; I’m happy to deal with all your objections as you raise them. “I and my Father are one” is certainly a striking statement of equality with God the Father. One wonders what sort of language it takes if this is so easily dismissed as not meaning what it plainly means.

There are a few factors that must be examined from this context. First, we must take note of Jesus’ reply.

Joh 10:34 Jesus answered them, Has it not been written in your Law, “I said, you are gods”? 35 If He called those gods with whom the Word of God was, and the Scripture cannot be broken, 36 do you say of Him whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, You blaspheme, because I said, I am Son of God?

Now the fact that Jesus quotes from Psalms 82:6 with the plural “gods” in his defense is of significant interest. This shows us that the QEOS that they said Jesus was making himself was not the definite Almighty God, but something else. After all, were he claiming to be the Almighty God, quoting this verse would be of no value in defense. And thus we find significance in the fact that QEOS is John 10:33 that QEOS is anarthrous, and can validly be translated as “a god.” This really goes to show us that contextually, Jesus’ claim was not to be God.

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First of all, this argument doesn’t work within the Arian framework of polytheism, because it would prove too much. You believe Jesus is “a god.” To my knowledge you don’t believe that all men are gods (like the Mormons) and like Jesus in that respect, for we were not all “God’s first and greatest creation” and primary ambassador to mankind. We didn’t all die on behalf of men’s sins, etc. Jesus is unique. So if all Jesus was saying that He was “a god” merely in the sense that everyone is “a god,” then we have massive polytheism, rather than the monotheism and condemnation of polytheism which is established from many biblical passages (see the section on monotheism and polytheism in my paper on the Holy Trinity for these proofs). Jesus claims that He is “one” with the Father: quite different from the rest of us.

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First of all, You may find yourself not knowing as much as you thought about the beliefs and understandings of that of Jehovah’s Witnesses, and your above comments reveal that as truth, and this is not the first time we note this within this discussion’s framework. We are not Arian and we are not polytheists.

Arians believed that Jesus was not eternal but created by the Father in order to be an instrument to create the world. It is clear that Arianism is the historical precedent for Jehovah’s Witness belief. You may think you are unique but you are not; it is just a recycling of a heresy which originated in the 4th century. There may be some minor differences (e.g., Arius believed that the Holy Spirit was a person), but in the essentials Arianism and Watchtower theology are the same.

We do not believe all men are gods (in the divine sense), nor do we believe that all become such.

And that is exactly why I wrote: “To my knowledge you don’t believe that all men are gods (like the Mormons).”

But properly, God in Hebrew denotes one being mighty and strong, nothing more. Psalms 82:6 uses ELOHIYM in a sense of ones having authority, being mighty in their authority to pass judgment. These ones called gods are not worshipped or anything of the sort. They are mighty, and so ELOHIYM is applied to them. Mountains are even called EL, but they are certainly not alive. Yet, they are mighty in size. Your quoted comments also seem to validate our understanding.

You miss my point entirely. I suggest that you read it again, very carefully. You don’t seem to grasp the implications of what you are arguing. Furst, you reduce Jesus from God to a mere man and creature (but still God’s greatest creation). Now by the above incoherent argument, you make Him no different from the rest of us, by applying Ps 82:6 to Him in a way that applies to all men (as you argued earlier). That takes away any uniqueness that Jesus has even in Jehovah’s Witness theology.

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Since the Bible teaches monotheism, exactly what, then, did Jesus mean when He said “you are gods?” We must find a meaning which doesn’t reduce to pantheism (everyone and everything is god), and which preserves Jesus’ special, preeminent role and the utter uniqueness of God. Thus I will turn to the commentators and lexicons to provide a clear answer to our “dilemma”. Robert M. Bowman, Jr., an expert on trinitarian theology, writes:

. . . there are a few passages in Scripture which seem to call men “god” or “gods” . . . In practice, the question of whether the Bible ever calls men “gods” in a positive sense focuses exclusively on Psalm 82:6 (“I said, ‘you are gods'”) and its citation by Jesus in John 10:34-35.

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The usual view among biblical expositors for centuries is that Psalm 82 refers to Israelite judges by virtue of their position as judges representing God; it is, therefore, a figurative usage which applies only to those judges and does not apply to men or even believers in general . . .

As will be seen, Irenaeus applies this to believers.

An alternative interpretation agrees that the “gods” are Israelite judges, but sees the use of the term “gods” as an ironic figure of speech. Irony is a rhetorical device in which something is said to be the case in such a way as to make the assertion seem ridiculous (compare Paul’s ironic “you have become kings” in 1 Corinthians 4:8, where Paul’s point is that they had not become kings). According to this interpretation, the parallel description of the “gods” as “sons of the Most High” (which, it is argued, is not in keeping with the Old Testament use of the term “sons” of God), the condemnation of the judges for their wicked judgment, and especially the statement, “Nevertheless, you will die as men,” all point to the conclusion that the judges are called “gods” in irony.

This is amazing then, because this totally removes the historical usage of these verses, as will be seen.

If the former interpretation is correct, then in John 10:34-35 Jesus would be understood to mean that if God called wicked judges “gods” how much more appropriate is it for Him, Jesus, to be called God, or even the Son of God. If the ironic interpretation of Psalm 82:6 is correct, then in John 10:34-35 Jesus’ point would still be basically the same. It is also possible that Jesus was implying that the Old Testament application of the term “gods” to wicked judges was fulfilled (taking “not to be broken” to mean “not to be unfulfilled,” cf. John 7:23) in Himself as the true Judge (cf. John 5:22,27-30; 9:39). Those wicked men were, then, at best called “gods” and “sons of the Most High” in a special and figurative sense; and at worst they were pseudo-gods and pseudo-sons of God. Jesus, on the other hand, is truly God (cf. John 1:1,18; 20:28; 1 John 5:20) and the unique Son of God (John 10:36; 20:31; etc.)

If this were irony, as Rob argues, then it was no defense for Jesus. In that same line of thought, the Jews would have clearly identified Jesus, in their eyes, as continuing to be worthy of death. Robertson (RWP) accurately explains this though:

The judges of Israel abused their office and God is represented in Psa_82:6 as calling them “gods” (theoi, elohim) because they were God’s representatives. See the same use of elohim in Exo_21:6; Exo_22:9, Exo_22:28. Jesus meets the rabbis on their own ground in a thoroughly Jewish way.

Thus, in their representation they are called gods, not in irony.

Neither the representative nor the ironic interpretation of Psalm 82 allows it (or John 10:34-35) to be understood to teach that men were created or redeemed to be gods. Nor is there any other legitimate interpretation which would allow for such a
conclusion. The Israelite judges were wicked men condemned to death by the true God, and therefore were not by any definition of deification candidates for godhood.If, then, the deification of man is to be found in Scripture, it will have to be on the basis of other biblical texts or themes, as Scripture gives men the title of “gods” only in a figurative or condemnatory sense. (“‘Ye Are Gods?’ Orthodox and Heretical Views on the Deification of Man,” Christian Research Journal, Winter/Spring 1987, page 18)

The deification of man is not being argued for, but simply the fact that men are indeed called gods. That is the entire point.

Jimmy Williams, founder of Probe Ministries, offers a similar analysis:

The contexts in both John 10 and the Old Testament Psalm which Jesus quoted (Psalm 82:6) are very important in understanding our Lord’s answer to the Jews which were about to stone Him . . .. . . let us look at Psalm 82 to determine its context and the theme/purpose of the Psalm. The entire psalm is a scathing rebuke aimed at unjust judges in contrast to the just Judge of all the earth. In reality, Asaph, the author of the psalm, is crying out for God to do something about the corrupt judges of his day; they show partiality, they neglect caring for the downtrodden, the weak, the afflicted, etc. Then in verse 6, God Himself speaks, and says:

“I said, ‘You are gods (Elohim),
And all of you are the sons of the Most High.”

Some observations:1. The words, “Elohim” (God),” and “Yahweh” (Lord), are the two major names of God in the Old Testament. It is Elohim that is used here in verse 6.

IF you think the divine name or YHWH means lord you are grossly in error. Have you confused the definition with adon. (Strong’s H113) ? Men are called lord in the Hebrew scriptures; if what you assume is true, where is a example of YHWH being applied to man? ELOHIYM is not a name, but a title. It is used for men (Psa. 82), angels (Psa. 8:5), Moses (Ex. 7:1) and false gods such as Dagon (Jdg. 16:2), whereas YHWH is a personal name, only applied to the FATHER.

2. Its meaning in Psalm 82:6 does not imply that men are gods. It rather refers specifically to the fact that God has appointed judges to act in a dignified, God-like manner in the discharge of their God-appointed responsibilities.

Whatever the meaning, the point remains that these men are called gods, as are angels and others.

3. Actually, the word “Elohim” is also used in verse 1 of both God and men:

“Elohim (God) takes His stand in His own congregation; He (God) judges in the midst of the Elohim (corrupt judges who are acting like Gods–said in sarcasm).”

Notice in John 10 that Jesus reminds these accusers from the first half of Psalm 82:6 that God is the one who appoints the human judges with their awesome responsibility: “Ye are gods.” He goes on in the second half of the verse to remind them that sons are supposed to resemble their Fathers: “And all of you are the sons of the Most High.” Neither the judges in the psalm nor the Jewish leaders confront Him were reflecting this.4. In jurisprudence there are two types of authority: de facto and de jure. The Most High God (Elohim Himself) has de facto authority. It is an un-derived authority. He has it because He is God. De jureauthority, on the other hand, is derived, or delegated authority. And delegated authority makes one responsible to the one who did the delegating! The second half of verse 6 is a solemn reminder that these judges are called “Sons” of God, because they are to represent faithfully a justice which reflects their “Father,” the Judge of all the earth.

5. Now the words of Jesus in John 10 make a lot more sense. If you or I had come to earth as the Messiah, we would probably have been moving about and taking every opportunity possible with people to verbally emphasize who we really were: Elohim. But Jesus didn’t do that. He chose rather to imply His identity through the miracles, through the Parables, through His actions. It was as if He was careful that a person came to the conclusion that He was Elohim solely of their own accord, and with no pressure or persuasion on His part, though He was eager for them to come to this very conclusion.

6. Notice that in the dialogue in John 10 with these angry Jews, Jesus could have taken the “bait” and said, “I am Elohim!” But He doesn’t. He claims identity with the second half of Psalm 82:6, the one that models a relationship to His Father exactly like what God is desiring from the judges in Psalm 82. Even though Christ is Elohim, He functions during the Incarnation in a de jure capacity to the Father and faithfully carries forth His responsibilities to His Father: accomplishing His mission to redeem the human race (John 3:16). (“What Did Jesus Mean When He Quoted the Scripture ‘You Are Gods’?” [link now defunct] )

All this is filled with priori assumptions that Jesus is in fact God, importing this viewpoint unto this passage. Only by doing that can one’s conclusions even remotely begin to try match with what you would like to be found. Please see the above comments Circular Reasoning.

The arguments by Bowman and Williams are quite sufficient in themselves and require no additional comment from me. I am confident that the reader will see that you have not answered them, but basically have dismissed them without serious counter-reply. This will not do.

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Jerome H. Neyrey, S.J., a learned Catholic Bible scholar, goes into extreme and fascinating depth in his treatment of this passage:

Unless Psalm 82 is used in a purely extrinsic manner in John 10:34-36, then we must investigate how it functions as an apology to a specific charge in the forensic dynamics of John 10. The starting place is 10:30, where Jesus claims “I and the Father are one (or equal).” The crowds correctly interpret this to mean that Jesus in some way claims “equality with God.” His claim leads them to a judgment, “blasphemy, because you, being a man, make yourself God” (10:33). Several questions arise: In what respect are Jesus and God “one” (or equal)? Is it true that Jesus “makes himself” God? This means that we must examine both the earlier part of John 10 to see in what sense Jesus and God are “equal” and the subsequent apology in 10:34-38 to see how Psalm 82 relates to the claims of equality . . .

First, it nowhere states here that Jesus is equal with God, as Neyrey imports into the text. Further, he overlooks the possible translation of “making yourself a god.”

In 10:28-30 Jesus makes newer and bolder claims Although formerly this Gospel claimed that believers by their own judgment come to life and pass beyond death (3:16-19; 5:24), now Jesus asserts that he himself is the giver of eternal life: “I give them eternal life and they never perish” (10:28a). He asserts that “no one shall snatch them out of my hand” (10:28b). Thus, Jesus now functions as the active agent of life, as giver of eternal life and as protector of his sheep even in death. Yet these claims would put him on a par with the all-powerful God.

But does this put him on par with God? No, because God gave him the ability to do this (John 3:35).

10:29 states two things about God. First, God is “greater than all” in virtue of God’s ruling or executive power . . . Second, of God it is said, “My Father…has given them [the sheep] to me and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand” (10:29). Concerning the latter remark, then, Jesus and God are alike, even equal.

Jesus (10:28) The Father (10:29)
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I give them eternal life My Father…has given and they shall not perish them to me forever,
and no one shall snatch and no one is able to snatch them out of my handthem out of the Fathers hand.

Again, this does not make them alike or equal. How so?

Joh 17:6 “I have made your name manifest to the men you gave me out of the world. They were yours, and you gave them to me, and they have observed your word.

So these ones are given to Christ by God. Christ did not have them, but now he does.

Joh 17:9 I make request concerning them; I make request, not concerning the world, but concerning those you have given me;because they are yours, 10 and all my things are yours and yours are mine, and I have been glorified among them.

Now while they are given to Jesus, we see that they are still God’s as well. They now belonging to both, so truly they are in the hands of both. Does this make Jesus God though? Not even remotely, because God always had them, but he had to give them to Jesus.

I’ve already dealt at length with distinctions between the Persons of the Trinity and how this doesn’t make them less than equal in essence and glory. You are again choosing not to seriously interact with the specific argument presented. You merely interject your own thoughts, which is what I call “mutual monologue”, not “dialogue.” So I need not spend time on it, given the already-excessive length of this exchange. When particular arguments are deliberately avoided, the weakness of one’s case is shown.

I would only note in passing (again) that the attribute of “having all things that are God’s” can only be an attribute of God. This is such an obvious and simple point that it can easily be overlooked (exactly what you seem to have done).

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[Neyrey continues]
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To underscore the boldness of Jesus’ claims, the text emphasizes that “God is greater than all” (10:29b), thus raising God above all other creatures, be they of no power or great power. Yet Jesus claims that he is “equal to” God who is “greater than all,” when he draws the conclusion in 10:30, “I and the Father are hen.”

Literally hen means “one.” But the context suggests that this adjective be translated as “equal to” or “on a par with.” Jesus claims far more than mere moral unity with God, which was the aim of every Israelite; such moral unity would never mean that mortals had become “god;” as Jesus’ remark is understood in 10:31-33. The very argument in John, then, understands hen to mean more than moral unity, that is, “equality with God.” By way of confirmation, 1 Cor 3:7 indicates thathen can mean “equality.” In virtue of the comparison noted above, Jesus claims equality with God, who is “greater than all,” because there is “no snatching out of their hands.” To what does this refer?

First of all, hEN cannot be translated as “equal to” or “on part with.” hEN is a numeral, it means one. It does not mean “equal to” or anything of the sort. Rather, John 17 disproves this theory completely. Consider

John 17:21 that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me and I am in you. I pray that they may be in us, so that the world may believe that you sent me.

Here we see that we are to be one, as the Father is in Christ and Christ is in the Father. But the key here is that we are to be one in them! If hEN is denoting equality, or being one in them would mean that we in fact, as Christians, are equal to God! Would we ever claim such? No, not at all.

*
Rather, 1 Co 3:7 does not denote equality, but it denotes a unity of thought towards a single goal, here in the sense of growing seeds, bringing people to the truth.

In the context of 10:28, Jesus claims both the power to give eternal life so that his sheep do not perish and the power to guard them from being snatched. “Being snatched,” then, has to do with life and death, such that Death has no ultimate power over Jesus’ sheep. Conversely, this implies that Jesus has such power from God so that he is the one who gives eternal life and rescues the dead from the snares of Death (see John 5:25, 28-29; 6:39, 44, 54; 8:51; 11:25). Since God alone holds the keys of life and death, Jesus claims an extraordinary power which belongs exclusively to God. There is substance, then, to the claim that Jesus and the Father are “equal” (10:30).

Again, where does scripture say that this is something that belongs exclusively to God? It does not, but rather the Bible clearly tells us that God gave Jesus the ability to do this (John 3:35).

I have shown at great length that the Fourth Gospel clearly and formally argues that Jesus is “equal to God” (5:18; 10:33) because God has given him full eschatological power (5:21-29). God gave him power (1) to give eternal life (5:21; 10:28), (2) to judge (5:22, 27; 8:21-30), (3) to be honored as Lawmaker and Judge (5:23), (4) to have life in himself (5:26; 10:17-18), and (5) to raise the dead and judge them (5:28-29). In fact, 5:21-29, a summary of Jesus’ eschatological power, functions as a topic statement which the Gospel subsequently develops in chaps, 8, 10, and 11. The claims in 10:28-30, then, continue the exposition of Jesus’ full eschatological power.

The key word in all of this is that “God gave him…” Jesus did not possess the power and ability in and of himself, as God always has.

. . . Our focus necessarily turns to the apology in 10:34-36. How does the Fourth Gospel understand and use Psalm 82, and does this usage have any relationship to the claims made in 10:28-30? As we begin, let us pay special attention to the form of the charge in 10:33. Jesus is accused of “making himself” equal to God, a charge that dominates the many forensic proceedings against him:

5:18 “…making himself God”
10:33 “you, a man, make yourself God”
19:7 “he made himself the son of God”
19:12 “who makes himself king…”

The evangelist distinguishes two elements of the judgment against Jesus: (1) Does Jesus make himself God or equal to God? (2) In what sense is Jesus equal to God or “god”? The distinction is important, for the Johannine Gospel denies the former half, that is, that Jesus makes himself anything, but carefully explains and defends the assertion of his equality with God.In response to the charge of blasphemy, Jesus advances an argument from scripture using Psalm 82. When he cites Ps 82:6 in 10:34, he establishes the mode of argument by comparing two things: if scripture was not in error calling mortals “gods” (Ps 82:6), then neither is there error in calling the one whom God consecrated and sent into the world “the Son of God” (10:35-36).

Jesus’ reference to “Son of God” in 10:36 does not weaken the argument by reducing the claim from “god” to “son of God,” because if one continues reading Ps 82:6, the two terms are considered parallel and equivalent there (“I said, ‘You are gods, all of you, sons of the Most High‘”). In claiming to be the consecrated “Son of God,” he does not claim less than what is claimed by being “god” according to Ps 82:6. On the contrary, he claims more.

. . . The Fourth Gospel always criticizes people who take things literally, either Jesus’ word or the scriptures. Regularly we find a pattern where Jesus makes a statement, which his hearers misunderstand because they take it on a literal level, which leads Jesus to issue a clarification which exposes the spiritual or inner meaning of his words . . .

In summary, John 10:34-36 can be said to understand Ps 82:6 and use it in specific ways.

(1) According to 10:34-35, Ps 82:6 (“I said, ‘You are gods’”) is understood to refer to Israel at Sinai when it received the Torah (“to whom the word of God came,” 10:35).

(2) Implied in this understanding is the intimate link between holiness :: deathlessness :: godlikeness. The Fourth Gospel cites only an abbreviated form of this, holiness :: godlikeness

(3) Ps 82:6b (“sons of the Most High”) is cited by Jesus when he calls himself “Son of God” (10:36), and it refers to his godlikeness in terms of holiness (see “consecrated and sent”).

(4) Ps 82:6 does not touch the substance of the claims made in 10:28-30 which precipitated the forensic process in 10:31-39. It functions as an adequate refutation of the erroneous judgment of Jesus’ judges, who charged that he, “a man, makes himself equal to God,” This judgment is false because God makes him “Son of God.”

(5) According to the apology in 10:34-36, holiness is linked with godlikeness in ways that are appropriate to human beings, first Adam, then Israel. Jesus would be a mere human being even if acclaimed “god/Son of God,” as was Israel. But the forensic argument in John 10 claims much more. No mere human being, Jesus is a heavenly figure who is “equal to God.” His equality rests not on holiness but on divine powers intrinsic to him, that is, full eschatological power.

(6) Jesus’ claims in regard to power over death always remain important in John 10. In this Gospel, his deathlessness does not formally derive from sinlessness/holiness as in the case of the midrash on Ps 82:6, but from full eschatological power which God gave him over death (5:21-29; 10:17-18). In 5:18 and 10:30, Jesus may be called “equal to God” for a much greater reason than ever justified calling Israel god, namely, because of powers intrinsic to him. Power over death is the specific content of “equal to God.”

(7) If we are correct that Ps 82:6 is understood in 10:34-36 in line with its basic midrashic interpretation, then the remark in 10:28-29 that “no one shall snatch them out of my hand” probably echoes what the midrash discusses in terms of the Angel of Death whose power over God’s people was restrained. The Angel of Death will not snatch Jesus’ followers/sheep either from his hand or God’s hand.

(“I Said: You Are Gods”: Psalm 82:6 And John 10,” [much more in the article], Journal of Biblical Literature 108 [1989]:647-63)

Clearly, all this commentary, while interesting to read, does not really provide any proof. These are the simply facts:

1) Men and others are called gods
2) Jesus was accused of making himself “a god” not hO QEOS (the Almighty God, Jehovah). “A god” is clearly the most accurate translation here, as Jesus uses the plural QEOI (gods).
3) Jesus defends himself in doing such, showing that men are called gods, so he can be called such too.

Further though, commenting on John 10:34, Albert Barnes clearly concurs with this, stating:

This was said of magistrates on account of the dignity and honor of their office, and it shows that the Hebrew word translated “god,” `elohiym, in that place might be applied to man. Such a use of the word is, however, rare. See instances in Exo_7:1; Exo_4:16.

John Gill further agrees with this as well:

which is spoken to civil magistrates, so called, because of their authority and power; and because they do, in some sort, represent the divine majesty, in the government of nations and kingdoms. Many of the Jewish writers, by “gods”, understand “the angels”. The Targum paraphrases the words thus:

“I said ye are accounted as angels, as the angels on high, all of you;”

Clearly, these commentaries understand these verses correctly and in that men with a God-given authority are called gods.

Further, note what Irenaeus writes:

And again: “God stood in the congregation of the gods, He judges among the gods.” He [here] refers to the Father and the Son, and those who have received the adoption; but these are the Church. For she is the synagogue of God, which God-that is, the Son Himself-has gathered by Himself. Of whom He again speaks: “The God of gods, the Lord hath spoken, and hath called the earth.” Who is meant by God? He of whom He has said, “God shall come openly, our God, and shall not keep silence; ” that is, the Son, who came manifested to men who said, “I have openly appeared to those who seek Me not.” But of what gods [does he speak]? [Of those] to whom He says, “I have said, Ye are gods, and all sons of the Most High.” To those, no doubt, who have received the grace of the “adoption, by which we cry, Abba Father.”

Again, you have chosen largely not to interact with the specific arguments given, so there is no need for me to further elaborate. As far as I am concerned, the arguments I have cited have triumphed.

***

The fact remains that the Hebrew Elohim can be used in the sense of judges. We see this, in, e.g., Exodus 21:6 and 22:9 (KJV: “judges”). William Gesenius’ Hebrew and Chaldee Lexicon (Grand Rapids, MI: Baker Book House, reprinted 1979 from 1847 edition, p. 49), differentiates its usages, which vary according to context:

1) “of the true God” (Dan 11:38, Hab 1:11, Deut 32:15, Ps 50:22; 40 times in Job)
2) “of any god” (Dan 11:37-39, 2 Chron 32:15, Neh 9:17)
3) “of gods or deities in general, whether true or false” (Ex 12:12, 18:11, 22:19, Gen 35:2,4. Deut 29:18, 32:17, Ps 86:8, Is 44:6, 45:5,14,21, 46:9, 2 Chron 13:9)
4) “once applied to kings” (Ps 82:1, especially verse 6)
5) “Not a few interpreters . . . have regarded Elohim as also denoting angels (see Ps 8:6, 82:1, 97:7, 138:1) and judges (Ex 21:6, 22:7-8) . . . Hebrews 1:6 and 2:7,9 show plainly that this word sometimes means angels, and the authority of the NT decides the matter”
6) “of an idol, a god of the Gentiles” (Ex 32:1, 1 Sam 5:7, 2 Kings 1:2-3,6,16, 1 King 11:5

This entirely supports the point being made. Men are called gods, angels are called gods, judges are called gods, kings are called gods, etc. So to call Jesus “a god” is not polytheism, it is not unscriptural. It is entirely accurate within the historical context of scripture and you have thus entirely proven our point by this reference.

Readers can determine who has made a better and more biblical, cogent, coherent case.

***

In dealing with “I and my Father are one,” it is interesting to note that Christians are said to be “one” in the same way as the Father and Son.

Joh 17:22 And I have given them the glory which You have given Me, that they may be one, as We are One:

Further, Paul states that he and Apollos are one.

1Co 3:8 So he planting and he watering are one, and each one will receive his own reward according to his own labor.

Does this mean they are two persons in one being? No. It means they are united. Just as Jesus and his Father are united.

This again proves too much. If all Jesus meant by saying He was “one” with the Father was a sort of spiritual unity or agreement, such as might be attained on a baseball team, knitting club, or volunteer fire department, then He was not claiming much at all, and we would all be one with God. But as we have seen and will continue to see, over and over and over, that Jesus’ status is unique. He is described as God repeatedly, and calls Himself God and does nothing to disabuse others of such notions. Every essential attribute of God the Father is applied to Him. This is simply not true of human beings. One has to interpret the Bible as a harmonious whole.

***

You seem to simply dismiss the point,

I haven’t dismissed it; I have set it in its larger biblical context.

but you have no evidence. In fact, this does not “prove too much,” but it fits the Biblical view perfectly. We are one in Jesus and God, in the same way that Jesus and God are one. You again import your priori assumptions into the text, overlooking what you just stated. You just demonstrated that many are termed ELOHIYM (God/Gods). Yet, when you apply the term to Jesus, you define it as the Almighty God. There is no basis for this, but again, it is a priori assumption on your part. When you remove these assumptions from John 10:30, and accept Jesus’s clear statements in John 17, where Jesus says we are one in the same way they are one, The rational reader have no choice but to accept that it means unity.

I am happy to let the above arguments stand on their own.

***

Go to Part Two

Go to Part Four

***

(originally 11-3-03)

Photo credit: Jesus Christ, extracted from the painting Christ And The Rich Young Ruler (1889) by Heinrich Hofmann (1824-1911) [public domain / Wikimedia Commons]

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December 13, 2017

+ Reformed Apologist James Swan’s Belittling Contempt of Luther

Luther1525

1) From: That Jesus Christ Was Born a Jew [1523] from Luther’s Works [“LW”]: Vol. 45, pp. 199, 205-206; translated by Walther I. Brandt:

A new lie about me is being circulated. I am supposed to have preached and written that Mary, the mother of God, was not a virgin either before or after the birth of Christ, but that she conceived Christ through Joseph, and had more children after that.

[ . . . ]

Now just take a look at the perverse lauders of the mother of God. If you ask them why they hold so strongly to the virginity of Mary, they truly could not say. These stupid idolators do nothing more than to glorify only the mother of God; they extol her for her virginity and practically make a false deity of her. But Scripture does not praise this virginity at all for the sake of the mother; neither was she saved on account of her virginity. Indeed, cursed be this and every other virginity if it exists for its own sake, and accomplishes nothing better than its own profit and praise.

The Spirit extols this virginity, however, because it was needful for the conceiving and bearing of this blessed fruit. Because of the corruption of our flesh, such blessed fruit could not come, except through a virgin. Thus this tender virginity existed in the service of others to the glory of God, not to its own glory. If it had been possible for him to have come from a [married] woman, he would not have selected a virgin for this, since virginity is contrary to the physical nature within us, was condemned of old in the law, and is extolled here solely because the flesh is tainted and its built-in physical nature cannot bestow her fruit except by means of an accursed act. Hence we see that St. Paul nowhere calls the mother of God a virgin, but only a woman, as he says in Galatians 3 [4:4], “The Son of God was born of a woman.” He did not mean to say she was not a virgin, but to extol her virginity to the highest with the praise that is proper to it, as much as to say: In this birth none but a woman was involved, no man participated; that is, everything connected with it was reserved to the woman, the conceiving, bearing, suckling, and nourishing of the child were functions no man can perform. It is therefore the child of a woman only; hence, she must certainly be a virgin. But a virgin may also be a man; a mother can be none other than a woman.

For this reason, too, Scripture does not quibble or speak about the virginity of Mary after the birth of Christ, a matter about which the hypocrites are greatly concerned, as if it were something of the utmost importance on which our whole salvation depended. Actually, we should be satisfied simply to hold that she remained a virgin after the birth of Christ because Scripture does not state or indicate that she later lost her virginity. We certainly need not be so terribly afraid that someone will demonstrate, out of his own head apart from Scripture, that she did not remain a virgin. But the Scripture stops with this, that she was a virgin before and at the birth of Christ; for up to this point God had need of her virginity in order to give us the promised blessed seed without sin.

***

2) From: Sermons on the Gospel of St. John [1537-1540]; chapter one; LW: Vol. 22, p. 23; translated by Martin H. Bertram:

The devil is doing his worst against this article of the divinity and the humanity of Christ, which he finds intolerable. Christ must be true God, in accord with the powerful testimony of Scripture and particularly of St. Paul, who declares that in Him the whole fullness of the Deity dwells bodily (Col. 2:9); otherwise we are damned forever. But in His humanity He must also be a true and natural son of the Virgin Mary, from whom He inherited flesh and blood as any other child does from its mother. He was conceived of the Holy Spirit, who came upon her and overshadowed her with the power of the Most High, according to Luke 1:35. However, Mary, the pure virgin, had to contribute of her seed and of the natural blood that coursed from her heart. From her He derived everything, except sin, that a child naturally and normally receives from its mother. This we must believe if we are not to be lost. If, as the Manichaeans allege, He is not a real and natural man, born of Mary, then He is not of our flesh and blood. Then He has nothing in common with us; then we can derive no comfort from Him. However, we do not let ourselves be troubled by the blasphemies which the devil, through the mouths of his lying servants, speaks against Christ the Lord—now against His divinity, now against His humanity—and by the attacks which he then makes against Christ’s office and work. But we cling to the Scriptures of the prophets and apostles, who spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit (2 Peter 1:21). Their testimony about Christ is clear. He is our Brother; we are members of His body, flesh and bone of His flesh and bone. According to His humanity, He, Christ, our Savior, was the real and natural fruit of Mary’s virginal womb (of which Elizabeth, filled with the Holy Spirit, said to her in Luke 1:42: “Blessed is the fruit of your womb!”). This was without the co-operation of a man, and she remained a virgin after that. Everything else that a mother imparts to a child was imparted by Mary, the mother of God’s eternal Son. Even the milk He sucked had no other source than the breasts of this holy and pure mother.

***

3) From: Sermons on the Gospel of St. John [1537-1540]; chapter two; LW: Vol. 22, p. 214; translated by Martin H. Bertram:

Now the question may occupy us how Christ could have brothers, since He was the only Son of Mary, and the Virgin Mary bore no children besides Him. Some say that Joseph had been married before his marriage to Mary, and that the children of this first wife were later called Christ’s brothers. Others say that Joseph had another wife simultaneously with Mary, for it was permissible for the Jews to have two wives. In the Book of Ruth we hear that a poor daughter was often left on the shelf (Ruth 3:10 ff.). This displeased God; therefore He commanded that such daughters be provided for. Thus it became incumbent upon the nearest relative or friend to marry such a poor orphan girl. Mary, too, was a poor little orphan, whom Joseph was obligated to marry. She was so poor that no one else wanted her. Any children born to Joseph by other wives would have been half brothers of Christ. This is the explanation offered by some. But I am inclined to agree with those who declare that “brothers” really means “cousins” here, for Holy Writ and the Jews always call cousins brothers. Be that as it may, it matters little. It neither adds to nor detracts from faith. It is immaterial whether these men were Christ’s cousins or His brothers begotten by Joseph. In any event, they moved to Capernaum with Christ, where they took charge of the parish. We may infer from this text that they were a poor little group. After Joseph’s death they probably found it impossible to support themselves in Nazareth and for this reason left and moved to Capernaum. But just how and why this happened is a moot question. Christ was born in Bethlehem and reared in Nazareth, and now He is residing as a pastor in Capernaum. This town is His parish. He chose it as the place where He was to reside as bishop and as burgher, just as our pastor dwells here and is our bishop. Christ did not remain in Capernaum permanently. No, He wandered about. He returned to Nazareth and journeyed through all of Galilee, preaching and performing miracles; and then He would return to His abode in Capernaum. The other prophets did the same. Samuel lived in Ramah, and from there he “went on a circuit” to preach in the adjacent countryside (1 Sam. 7:16–17).

***

The evidence is so compelling that even James Swan, the virulently anti-Catholic Reformed Protestant polemicist, who writes a lot about Luther, freely admitted in a post dated 9-21-14 on his website, Boors All:

It’s certainly true that Luther believed in Mary’s perpetual virginity, and there’s no need to be embarrassed by such an historical fact. Luther never appears to waver on Mary’s perpetual virginity.

But Swan acknowledges Luther’s belief here, in effect, while plugging his nose and grimacing. He wrote in a comment, dated 1-19-07:

[T]he specific Marian doctrines put forth by Rome tend to deify Mary. Thus, I see the extra-biblical doctrines attributed to Mary as nothing other than a violation of the commandment against idolatry. The Scriptures are clear on Mary’s lack of perpetual virginity (Matthew 1:18-25).

That being said, I think the Reformers, (Luther and Zwingli) would be an example of people who held to this Marian doctrine and had “an evangelical understanding of the Gospel.” But, I think the reason they did hold this belief was the result of a well entrenched tradition, rather than exegesis of the Biblical text. Each generation comes with its own set of non-biblical traditions.

I can cut these guys some slack- because I realize that the paradigm change that Luther and Zwingli went through didn’t mean that all of sudden they were evangelicals with little fish pins on their jackets, and bumper stickers on their horses. Rooting out unbiblical traditions takes time.

On the other hand, I don’t cut any modern day evangelicals holding to this belief any slack. The Biblical exegetical material on who Mary was is vast. If a modern-day evangelical attempts to hold this view, they are clearly in error, and should be exhorted according to the clear teachings of Scripture.

This is standard, stock, garden-variety anti-Catholic polemics. Whatever the “reformers” retained of Catholic belief, they obviously did, not because these things were true, but because it was a holdover from the long tradition, and since they were transitional figures, they couldn’t fully get it out of their system.

Ironically, this is far more insulting to Luther and Calvin than what I would say (or have ever said) about them, because it belittles their understanding and almost mocks them. Luther was so stupid and uninformed, according to Swan, that he couldn’t even figure out that the perpetual virginity of Mary “tend[s] to deify Mary” and is an instance of rank “idolatry.” Luther may have been many things, but he was not stupid; nor biblically illiterate. He knew more about Scripture in his little finger than Swan (who rarely ever attempts biblical exegesis at all) could ever dream of knowing.

Yet Swan’s fertile, illustrious brain comes up with the ludicrous notion that Luther was a great exegete when it came to justification and other Protestant distinctives, but when it came to Mary, he apparently did no exegesis at all, and somehow missed the “clear” biblical teaching and was the slave of “non-biblical tradition.”

Thus, Martin Luther: the great proponent and virtual inventor of sola Scriptura and the perspicuity (clearness) of Scripture; the guy who said that even a plowboy could figure out that the Bible teaches Protestantism, falls completely flat when it came to Mary, and couldn’t grasp the “clear” teaching of Scripture. How ironic, huh?

But we can rest easy at night knowing that James Swan, in his gracious and compassionate mercy, is willing to give Luther a pass in this regard. He was blind because he had once been a Catholic.

In so doing, he treats Martin Luther with far more disrespect than I ever have: as a simpleton and a dumbbell, beholden to the worst sort of idolatry. John Calvin mocked Luther as a “half-papist” too, because Luther dared to still believe in the Real Presence in the Eucharist (in a way similar, but not identical to the Catholic view).

So if Calvin thought Luther was an absolute idiot with regard to the Eucharist, it should surprise us not at all that his follower James Swan thinks Luther was an absolute ignoramus, imbecile, and idiot when it came to Marian doctrines that most Protestants now reject as “self-evidently unbiblical.”

***

(9-23-14)

Photo credit: Portrait of Martin Luther (1525), by Lucas Cranach the Elder (1472-1553) [public domain / Wikimedia Commons]

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December 7, 2017

JesusEucharist2

(2-4-05; abridged and very slightly edited / added to otherwise, on 12-7-17)

***

This is drawn from what was originally a very extensive dialogue with a friendly and learned Reformed Protestant, Alastair Roberts. At first, he himself asked me to respond to a series that he wrote on the topic. I was happy to oblige. I feel, however, that the two-part dialogue (see parts one / two, via Internet Archive) is far too long and involved for the vast majority of readers to be willing to follow. For the few who are willing and interested, I have provided the old links. Here, I have retained what I feel is the heart and substance of my comments, stimulated by a worthy and ecumenical dialogical opponent. That is still quite long enough, as it is!

***

Catholics don’t have to make the dichotomous choice of believing that the Eucharist is real, but not also a sign or symbol as well, just as St. Augustine held. I’ve written about this false dichotomy in my paper, “St. Augustine’s Belief in the Real Presence” [see the later revised version].

What we need to appreciate is that reality dwells in the realm of symbols and symbols dwell in the realm of reality. Symbols and reality depend upon each other for existence.

I agree. In my paper just-mentioned, I wrote:

I claimed [as a Protestant] that St. Augustine . . . adopted a symbolic view of the Eucharist. I based this on his oft-stated notion of the sacrament as symbol or sign. I failed to realize, however, that I was arbitrarily creating a false, logically unnecessary dichotomy between the sign and the reality of the Eucharist, for St. Augustine — when all his remarks on the subject are taken into account — clearly accepted the Real Presence. The Eucharist — for Augustine, and objectively speaking — is both sign and reality. There simply is no contradiction.

A cursory glance at Scripture confirms this general principle. For instance, Jesus refers to the sign of Jonah, comparing the prophet Jonah’s three days and nights in the belly of the fish to His own burial in the earth (Mt 12:38-40). In this case, both events, although described as signs, were quite real indeed. Jesus also uses the terminology of sign in connection with His Second Coming (Mt 24:30-31), which is believed by all Christians to be a literal event, and not symbolic only.

. . . St. Augustine’s symbolic language can be synthesized with his “realistic” language, because realism can co-exist with symbol while retaining its realism . . . symbolic language can also (and indeed often does in Augustine) refer to other, more communal aspects of the Eucharist which complement (but are not contrary to) the “Real Presence” aspect of it.

. . . The simple fact of the matter is that Augustine speaks in both ways. But we can harmonize them as complementary, not contradictory, because Catholics, like Augustine himself, tend to think in terms of “both/and” rather than the dichotomous “either/or” prevalent in Protestantism. Thus, when some Augustinian symbolic Eucharistic utterance is found, it is seized upon as “proof” that he thereby denied the Real Presence.

This is neither logically compelling, nor scholarly, since there are many of his statements which clearly indicate that he held to the literal, Real physical Presence of Christ in the Eucharist, and the Sacrifice of the Mass, and the priesthood, which makes no sense.

The whole idea of sacramentology can be summed up as: “matter can convey grace.” That can in turn be paraphrased as “nature (including sensory data) can and does convey grace.” Put that way, obviously a nature vs. grace dichotomy is precluded. It would seem that the Incarnation would have put that false dichotomy to rest in the first place (which is why we see the Eucharist as an “extension” of the Incarnation).

If matter can convey grace, then it (in the sacrament) is being used as a channel or medium for that purpose. Scripture indicates that grace (in one definition of it, anyway) is a thing which can be “distributed,” if you will, by God. Thus, linguist W. E. Vine wrote:

. . . in another objective sense, the effect of grace, the spiritual state of those who have experienced its exercise, whether (1) a state of grace, e.g., Rom. 5:2; 1 Pet. 5:12; 2 Pet. 3:18, or (2) a proof thereof in practical effects, deeds of grace, e.g., 1 Cor. 16:3 . . .; 2 Cor. 8:6,19 . . . the power and equipment for ministry, e.g., Rom. 1:5; 12:6; 15:15; 1 Cor. 3:10; Gal. 2:9; Eph. 3:2,7 . . .

(An Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words, Old Tappan, New Jersey: Fleming H. Revell Co., 1940, vol. 2, 170, “Grace” / “Charis”)

Many biblical instances of sacramental occurrences had nothing to do with the divinely instituted symbology of the Last Supper / Eucharist, but illustrate and confirm this understanding of matter conveying grace: Elisha’s bones causing a man to be raised from the dead (2 Ki 13:20-21), Paul’s handkerchief (Acts 19:11-12) and Peter’s shadow (Acts 5:15-16) healing people, and Elijah’s mantle causing the Jordan River to part (2 Ki 2:11-14). These also constitute excellent, explicit biblical evidence for relics. Very un-Protestant, yet very biblical . . .

The old Protestant objection is that the Mass is a form of magic, with the priest uttering mysteriously powerful words to make happen what Catholics believe happens. In fact, the term hocus pocus came from the Latin words of consecration: hoc est enim corpus (“this is My Body”). But the Mass is not “magic” at all. Magic (in the occultic, not entertainment, sleight-of-hand sense) means that the person performing the magic has an intrinsic power to perform something in and of himself.

But in the Mass, the priest is merely an alter Christus. He is representing the person of Jesus at the Last Supper, following the words that He taught us to say (encapsulated in a worship and liturgical ritual known as the Mass). It is Jesus Who is performing the eucharistic miracle. The priest is merely a channel. God causes the miracle to occur, not mere words (just as God’s grace causes a conversion; not the words of the repentant sinner; citing John 3:16 or some kind of “sinner’s prayer”).

The words of consecration (repeating our Lord’s words at the Last Supper) merely give a particular time when the faithful know that the miracle has occurred. After all, if one believes in a substantial presence of Jesus at some point during the liturgy, then it is altogether reasonable to posit at which point the miracle occurs (so the worshipers can worship Jesus as substantially present; hence we bow our heads at the consecration because Jesus is truly, substantially there).

Jesus Christ is truly, substantially, actually present: Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity. That’s why we believe that the Mass is a Sacrifice, and re-presents the one sacrifice at Calvary on the Cross (transcending time and space, which is part of the miracle). That’s why we bow our heads and worship the consecrated host, because we believe it is Jesus Himself under the outward forms of bread and wine.

This “realism” is how St. Paul and the Fathers understood the Eucharist. If one wishes to adopt Calvin’s understanding, then I want to know the reason for such a massive change in understanding. Why should I accept Calvin’s belief on this if it clashes with unbroken Christian Tradition?

The Incarnation (like transubstantiation) was another great “change” — so much so that it scandalized the Jews, most of whom rejected Jesus as the Messiah. The Holy Trinity was perceived as a massive “change” and indeed, as gross idolatry and blasphemy by the Jews. Since the Incarnation was so “radical,” one would fully expect Christian rituals to be correspondingly different and new, compared to what came before; yet not without aspects of continuity.

Thus, the Mass is based on the Last Supper, which was itself a Passover dinner. The Mass re-presents the Sacrifice of Jesus on the Cross, which itself was the fulfillment of the Old Testament sacrificial system. The Catholic priest fulfills and completes the “type” of the Hebrew priest, offering the Lamb of God, Who is God, to God the Father, rather than mere lambs and other animals.

We believe the consecrated bread and wine are truly, substantially Jesus: Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity. It’s not just a word game. It’s not just a more “pungent” presence. God is omnipresent, so He is always “here” in that sense; transubstantiation is obviously a different sense of “presence” than that; lest it be entirely superfluous and unnecessary. It reproduces the Incarnation: God became man. God can become equally present in a physical sense in what was once bread and wine. If He can do one thing, the second is no less plausible.

Faith is required, of course, because the appearance will not suggest this. But then, neither did the appearance of Jesus the Man, for many who beheld Him. You couldn’t prove that Jesus was God by taking a blood test, or analyzing DNA from a skin sample. Likewise, you can’t prove that a consecrated wafer is God.

In my opinion, John Calvin dismisses biblical and patristic realism with mere (flawed, fallacious) philosophy and speculation. The burden of proof is on him and his followers to explain to us why we should believe something differently than what the Church always held previously.

God is omnipotent. It seems to me that Protestants are denying His omnipotence, in saying that there is something He cannot do, which is entirely logically possible for Him to do; namely, become truly, substantially present in the Eucharist. Since it isn’t possible to do that without sacrificing the doctrine of omnipotence, I don’t see how it is possible for a Christian who accepts that attribute of God to argue in this way.

And what is it based on, anyway? We can come up with all sorts of “logical conundrums” as objections to traditional Christianity. The Jews argue against the Trinity because it is too difficult to understand and accept. So do Jehovah’s Witnesses and Unitarians, and The Way International, and Christadelphians and a host of other non-trinitarian heretical sects. With one voice they all denounce the Holy Trinity as unreasonable, nonsensical, and unable to be comprehended or believed.

Now, because transubstantiation is difficult to believe, Calvin and his Reformed followers have also sought to set forth merely philosophical objections, so that they can reject the doctrine. I say that this is (though not intended to do this at all) putting philosophy above faith. Faith requires belief in many things that are difficult to understand. many things in Christian doctrine (things we all agree on) can never be totally proven or demonstrated.

So it comes down to deciding which doctrines are “unreasonable,” upon which we concentrate our powers of reason and attitude of skepticism. How does one decide when to do this? It’s much more reasonable to accept the traditional faith whole and entire, as received — passed-down — from our brothers and sisters in the faith. We don’t pick and choose what of that we can accept and which, reject, because that is arbitrary. I would strongly contend that this was how St. Paul viewed the matter.

But Protestants pick and choose and become skeptical of certain things precisely because they have changed the traditional rule of faith and have adopted private judgment and sola Scriptura. They had to do so, otherwise, they would have no good reason to justify their separation from the traditional Church. They had to adopt a different principle of determining which doctrines are true and which are not.

The medieval theologians largely (but not exclusively) analyzed the Eucharist in terms of the Aristotelian / Scholastic (Thomistic) philosophy then prevalent. We believe it is a miracle, but one which we can grasp to a great extent by applying human rational thinking to it.

It’s not that Jesus is “brought down” to earth, as if He is subject to human whims and magical formulas or incantations. In the Mass, the Cross is made a present reality. We are “brought up” to God’s sublime, timeless level. It is a miracle. It’s not “every time such-and-such happens”; rather, it is a transcendence of time; Jesus on the Cross as sacrifice becomes present outside of time, just as God the Father is outside of time. This is part of the great miracle. The Incarnation becomes present as well, just as the Sacrifice on the Cross. Jesus can be present to every worshiper at Mass, just as He was in those 33-or-so years that He lived among us as an historical Person in the land of Israel.

The Mass completely transcends space and time: so great is the miraculous nature of it. Jesus could walk through walls even before He ascended. Now He can become substantially present in what was once bread and wine. If you can believe one thing, it is no difficulty to believe (a priori) the other. Karl Adam, author of the marvelous book The Spirit of Catholicism (translated by Dom Justin McCann, Garden City, New York: Doubleday Image, 1954 [originally 1924 in German], p. 197), remarks upon the transcendent nature of the Mass:

The Sacrifice of Calvary, as a great supra-temporal reality, enters into the immediate present. Space and time are abolished. The same Jesus is here present who died on the Cross. The whole congregation unites itself with His holy sacrificial will, and through Jesus present before it consecrates itself to the heavenly Father as a living oblation. So Holy Mass is a tremendously real experience, the experience of the reality of Golgotha.

The Incarnation was physical; so is the Eucharist. The Incarnation transformed the relationship of God to His creation. Matter was raised to untold heights when God took on matter and became a Man. The Cross was a physical event in time; so the Mass re-presents that one-time event and make it miraculously present; transporting the worships to the heavenlies. We’re merely repeating the words of consecration from the Last Supper, as our Lord commanded us, and echoing the explicitly “eucharistic” and “sacrificial / priestly” language and described heavenly rituals in the books of Hebrews and Revelation.

He is either truly there or He is not. If so, then He should be — nay, must be — worshiped as He was when He walked the earth. If not, then it is foolish to speak of “real presence” and suchlike; it becomes simply wordplay. But the Reformed view illogically wants it both ways: to speak of being “really present,” yet refusing the next logical step of rendering worship and adoration. This makes no sense to me. If He is really there, He should be worshiped. He was worshiped and adored when He walked the earth. He is now, too. We believe Jesus is really there, and then we worship Him because He is there. Yet that somehow becomes “idolatry”?

If there is no worship of Jesus in the miracle of the Eucharist, then there is no Eucharist, by definition. It’s a hollow ritual smacking of pure Zwinglian symbolism. That brings us back to a presence no different from a spiritual (but not physical) presence that occurs at all times, everywhere.

St. Paul is simply using phenomenological language [in 1 Cor 11:26: “bread” and “wine”], just as we do when we say “the sun comes up.” It is describing something by the appearance without denying the underlying reality (see also 1 Corinthians 10:16). Paul shows his eucharistic realism in verse 27 when he refers to those partaking “in an unworthy manner” as being “guilty of profaning the body and blood of the Lord.” Furthermore, he speaks the language of sacrifice and altar in 1 Corinthians 10:14-21. This makes no sense in the context of a non-realist interpretation of the Eucharist. He refers to pagans offering sacrifice in 10:20 (see v. 14). This is contrasted to “the table of the Lord” in v. 21.

The analogy seems quite clear: the pagans offer to idol-demons at their table; Christian priests offer Jesus Christ, the Lamb of God at their “table” (i.e., altar). As the demons are falsely, idolatrously worshiped, so Jesus in the Eucharist is truly, properly worshiped and a priestly sacrifice occurs. But you want to take away this worship, or define it away as idolatry. Some Protestants want to claim that the Mass is idolatrous? I could just as easily say (only rhetorically, not actually) that their denial of worship of Jesus in the consecrated host is blasphemy, since they are going against the very essence of the ritual and miracle by denying that He is really there (therefore they refuse worship and maintain that the bread and wine are never transformed).

Catholics believe that what appears to be bread and wine, no longer is, in fact. No idolatry can occur then, because to make something an idol, you have to believe that it is something other than the true God, and worship it in place of God. We don’t believe it is anything else but God, because we hold that it has become the Body and Blood of Christ. It has changed its substance (trans [change] [of] / substantiation) Therefore, idolatry is impossible by definition and simple category distinctions.

The Church is the Body of Christ insofar as Christ is in us. Yet no one says that the Church (made up of flesh and blood persons) is to be worshiped. Jesus Christ is to be worshiped. But Jesus is not us. He is in us, and we are distinct from Him. We’re created human beings making up a Church, and He is God. This is where the contra-Catholic Protestant argument against adoration and Catholic doctrine supposedly establishing idolatry collapses, because it freely moves between the categories of Real Presence and Body-of-Christ [Church] as Christ.

Calvinists say that the bread and wine are present, yet true worship occurs, and no idolatry, in the eucharistic service. But if they can worship Jesus while bread and wine are still present, and not commit idolatry, and worship Jesus somehow in and through the Church (since the latter is also His Body), why is it that one cannot worship Jesus when they believe that no bread and wine are present? Why is it that that is considered idolatry, whereas worship of Jesus “alongside” bread and wine is not? It seems to me that if the charge of idolatry is to be slung around, that it is far more apt to those who worship according to the Calvinist view, than to those who follow the Catholic view.

The Church can be the Body of Christ without being worshiped, but (what was once) bread cannot provide a sign or appearance without bread also being worshiped idolatrously? This makes no sense at all. Calvinists could, likewise, argue (since they say that they accept the “real presence”) that “the bread is also truly the body of Christ without being a proper object of our worship.”

Then they would be admitting that it is possible to separate the sign and the created matter from our Lord, Who is being worshiped. By the same token, Catholics can just as easily separate the sign and appearance of bread from the God Whom they are worshiping. But we don’t believe that the bread is there any longer. Calvinists and other Protestants do. Yet we are supposedly idolaters and they aren’t? It’s completely incoherent and illogical; nonsensical.

The real presence is not “in the elements” (which is Luther’s consubstantiation or Calvin’s spiritual presence). Rather, the elements have been changed and transformed to Jesus’ Body and Blood. If what appears to be bread and wine are now actually His Body and Blood, they can be worshiped. Period. End of sentence.

Why is this so difficult to grasp? Protestants may not believe that, and think that they are bread and wine. But Catholics believe that bread and wine are no longer present, and Catholics are the ones being accused of being idolaters. Idolatry is an internal condition of placing some creation above God, in His place. How can one believe in transubstantiation, and worship the consecrated host, believing that it is no longer bread, but God, and be an idolater? It isn’t possible. And it isn’t, not only because the categories are confused by the critics, but because it isn’t possible to replace God with something else, if one doesn’t believe the “something else” is there at all.

The Catholic believes, rather, that God is truly present under the accidents of what looks like bread and wine, just as all Nicene Christians believe that God became a man, taking on outward qualities that look to all appearances to be no different than other men, all of whom are mere creatures; yet this man was God. If God could be 100% God and 100% man at the same time (Nicene and Athanasian Creeds), then why is it so inconceivable that He could be 100% God and only look like bread and wine?

Which is more difficult to accept, according to natural reason? I submit that the Incarnation and Two Natures of Christ are, in many ways, more difficult to believe than transubstantiation (because by raw logic it makes no sense for something to be “100% or “fully” two things at the same time). Yet Calvinists and other Protestants have no difficulty accepting that, while the latter is regarded as idolatrous, insofar as adoration of the consecrated host occurs.

Transubstantiation goes back to the early centuries in kernel form, because a transformational view of the Eucharist was the leading opinion in the Fathers, so it is foolish to try to trace (the origin of?) this so-called “strange miracle” to later times. I would argue, too, of course, that the transformational view (without technical philosophical terminology) is taught fairly explicitly in Scripture, too.

Calvinists want to maintain the realism of the terminology “we . . . eat of Christ’s body and drink of His blood,” on the one hand, but they (in effect) immediately take it away with the other, by denying that it is supernatural. There are only so many choices here. If they want to take a merely symbolic view, then that is one way to resolve the dilemma. But Calvinists want to maintain “eucharistic realism.” Yet this can’t be without some supernatural element being present.

The reason is rather obvious: bread and wine are clearly not Jesus’ Body and Blood. They are, well, bread and wine. If a Calvinist agrees that something happens during a Christian service whereby Jesus’ Body and Blood are now present in a “real” way, then either it is just word games (and thus reduces to Zwingli’s symbolism, in my opinion), or there is truly something more present (and that, more than merely “spiritually,” which is how God is with us all the time). To the extent that the “more” is physical, it must be miraculous. I don’t see how it could not be. We’re not dealing with science and natural philosophy here, but with the “metaphysical” and spiritual mysteries of the faith.

Whatever Calvinists believe with regard to the Holy Eucharist, it is assuredly supernatural or miraculous, because it involves notions and realities that transcend mere bread and wine. Any atheist would think both sides were both nuts, and perfectly irrational, and he would, precisely because he doesn’t accept the supernatural (or spiritual realities). Those categories are nonsensical to him. I think an atheist would find it rather strange that Calvinists deny the supernatural in their analysis, when to him it clearly would appear that supernatural concepts and entities are involved for either of our beliefs (which to him would probably seem to be only variations on a theme).

I find it odd that Calvinists appear inclined towards a less miraculous or non-miraculous conception, when all indications are that the New Covenant and the Eucharist instituted by our Lord Jesus Himself, have “miraculous” and “new” written all over them. Jesus referred back to the manna in the wilderness in his John 6 (quite eucharistic) discourse. Manna was miraculous. It wasn’t natural. It came from heaven, by God’s decree.

The feeding of the five thousand — closely examined — shows signs of some sacramental, eucharistic meaning (and it was a meal, just as manna provided a good many meals for the Jews in the wilderness). That, too, was a miracle: an “intersection” between a powerful Lord and His people.

When Jesus appeared to the disciples after His Resurrection, He had a Body which was capable of very “unnatural” things, such as what appeared to be “walking through walls.” That was beyond our normal humdrum experience, too. So where Calvinists see a routine meal, I see wondrous miracles and parallels to same all over the place.

Sacraments are inherently a mixing of natural and supernatural, because what they mean is “some form of matter which conveys grace.” Grace is a supernatural entity, not a natural one. So the dead guy is thrown onto Elisha’s bones (natural) and he is raised from the dead (supernatural). Paul’s handkerchief (natural) heals people (supernatural). Jesus uses mud to put into the blind man’s eyes (natural), and he sees (supernatural). The woman touches Jesus’ robe and is healed (this is what we call in Catholic theology a “secondary relic”). Water is poured on a baby’s head (natural), and regeneration occurs (supernatural). Are not all these things “sharply separated” from the natural world in general? They’re not natural at all, insofar as spiritual, supernatural elements are involved in each one of them.

If we go back to the roots of the Passover, that was as miraculous as any of the other major events in Hebrew and salvation history. The Jews were instructed to put lamb’s blood “on the two doorposts and the lintel of the houses” (Ex 12:7). God would see that and pass over each house which had it (hence the name), while He smote the Egyptian firstborn (Ex 12:12-13). This is thoroughly sacramental, and also equally supernatural and miraculous. It’s not routine or “natural” at all. It has nothing to do with “natural” except that natural means were used to produce a supernatural, sacramental effect, according to the essential nature of all sacraments and sacramentals (in Catholicism, things such as holy water, relics, blessings, crucifixes, scapulars, etc.).

The blood of lambs and goats somehow caused God to not judge sinners. Later, of course, the blood of Jesus the Lamb of God, would cover our sins and cause us to be spiritually saved, just as the Jews were physically saved from judgment (the former was a type or shadow of, and analogy to, the latter). That’s supernatural. It seems to me, then, that all indications favor a “supernaturalist” conception of both Passover and the Eucharist which was a later development of it.

The Mass is not “radically different” from the Passover. It is a consistent development of it, in accordance with general New Testament and New Covenant principles of how things developed (Sunday worship as a development of the old Sabbath is another such instance). Jews observed Passover once a year. Christians observe the Eucharist every Sunday. It’s more intense; the miraculous is made the centerpiece of worship in a way that Judaism couldn’t do (for lack of the sheer number of Lambs, for one thing). Jesus has become our Passover Lamb. The parallels are striking and most fascinating. The Mass is also similar to our “daily meals” insofar as it is a communal gathering and partaking of (what was and still appears to be) bread and wine. Families gather together as a “community” to eat dinner; so do assemblies of Christians, the Family or People of God.

[In the original dialogue I cited at this point, long potions of Scott Hahn’s famous talk, “The Fourth Cup”]

It’s not “usual” or “common” in everyday life to have Jesus walk into the room. When that happens, you get on your face on the floor at His feet, and beg for mercy (as Isaiah did when He “saw God” — Isaiah 6:1-5). Thus, Catholics worship Jesus in the Eucharist, and confess our sins before receiving Him. And we genuflect and bow our heads at the consecration. It’s the most glorious part of the liturgy, and the reason we are all there. This is “real presence.” Jesus is “really” there, just as if we were back in Galilee with Peter and the fishermen.

Calvinists want to talk about Real Presence, but they don’t want to act as they would if Jesus made a post-Resurrection appearance and stood before them. What would they do, then? Would they say, “well, my Lord, I do adore You and worship You and serve You with all my heart, but I don’t believe that this meeting with you should be regarded as separate from the rest of my life. It’s not supernatural. It’s only natural. You lived as a Man and here you are now with me.” Is that not a rather obvious reductio ad absurdum? I think so.

I think it is wrongheaded to view the matter as a continuation of daily life more so than to view it as a compelling, profound, existential experience of the central tenet of faith and greatest moment in the history of the world and of salvation history: the crucifixion and Jesus’ sacrifice and atonement for the sins of the world. That’s how we look at it: the cross is made present, and we receive our Lord. This is what Christian ritual and worship is about. It’s not abstract. It is very concrete. And that is the sacramental, incarnational essence of worship.

I’ve tried very hard to see the Reformed (and Calvin’s own) view of the Eucharist as some form of “Real Presence,” but the more I learn, the more it seems apparent to me that the two concepts cannot be reconciled. Perhaps this is why (so I hear from many of the “high Reformed”) many Reformed Christians today are practically Zwinglians with regard to the Eucharist? Calvin already took away too many essential aspects of the Eucharist. Others simply take it further, because once you depart from a received Tradition of Christianity (even a lesser denominational tradition or creed), the overwhelming tendency is for folks to become more and more liberal, and believe less and less (hence, theological liberalism itself, that we are all blessed with).

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Photo credit: Christ the Saviour, by Juan de Juanes (1510-1579); photograph uploaded by Quinok [public domain / Wikimedia Commons]

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November 30, 2017

Calvin10

(4-9-04,  9-7-05, abridged and re-edited on 11-30-17)

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[see the original series of three debates (one / two / three) with Reformed Protestants]

[John Calvin’s words will be in blue]

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Either Jesus’ body and blood are substantially present or not. If they are, then they are really there! You can’t deny that the elements are transformed (Catholic view) or joined by the true body and blood (Lutheranism) and still hold that there is substantial or “real” presence. Why? Because this is an internal contradiction. Calvin is saying that Jesus is simultaneously there and not there. Even God is bound to that sort of elementary logical distinction. God can’t be and not be at the same time. And He can’t be “here” and “not here” at the same time.

Miracles are not irrational. The supernatural is not irrational; it simply transcends natural laws governing matter or is outside of it (as spirit, since science and naturalism deals with matter). It will do no good to simply say, “it is above our understanding, and so we will construct irrational scenarios and not try to make them coherent. It’s a mystery . . . ”

The bottom line is my original criticism about this “mystical view” of Calvin: if Jesus is really there it seems that he must adopt either a Catholic or Lutheran position. If He isn’t really (substantially?) there, then the Calvinist Eucharist is scarcely distinguishable fro the omnipresence of God or Zwinglianism. So God is there but is not “really” or “substantially” there. So what? How is that particularly special or unique? It still appears to me to be a “mystical Zwinglianism.”

I don’t understand how saying Jesus is “mystically” (but not substantially) present is logically distinguishable from pure Zwinglian symbolism, or how this is a miracle at all, because Jesus is already “mystically present” at all times and even lives within us. What sense does it make to say that “He is always here spiritually and now He is here ‘in Spirit more than He was’ “? Spirits have no spatial or quantitative qualities. It reminds me of the Jehovah’s Witness “invisible” return of Jesus in 1914. No one saw anything, but it really happened!

If we take away the conversion of the elements and transubstantiation, the distinctiveness and “sacramentality” of the miracle is abolished, thus we deprive the rite of its very essence. Unless something physical is there, it can’t be a sacrament, by definition, because a sacrament is the conveying of grace by physical means. If it isn’t substantial, it reduces to symbolism, because (at least in my analysis, for what it’s worth), why should we receive a spiritual presence that we already have through omnipresence and the indwelling? So it strikes me as betwixt and between; neither fish nor fowl.

Calvin’s and the Calvinist eucharistic view involves massive self-contradiction:

1. Jesus is physically present in the Supper.

2. But He is physically present at the right hand of God.

3. We are physically present with Christ in the Supper.

4. But we are physically present with Christ at the right hand of God.

Contradictions: 1 vs. 2, 3 vs. 4, 2 vs. 3, and 1 vs. 4.

Why take this view but oppose the view that Jesus is sacramentally present in the Supper? God can perform miracles but He can’t transcend the laws of logic. If we want to restrict ourselves solely to the literal post-Resurrection body of Christ, then we can’t say that is “physically present” in the Supper while simultaneously at the right hand of God, because that is a contradiction, as much as it would be a contradiction to say that Jesus was physically present in Jerusalem during His crucifixion, but simultaneously at the Sea of Galilee.

But the Catholic view is not contradictory because the miracle of transubstantiation is an additional mode of presence of Jesus that is physical in a way approximating spiritual omnipresence (similar in a sense to His post-Resurrection body when He appeared to His disciples and seemed to walk through walls). We are not with Jesus in heaven yet but He is sacramentally and eucharistically with us, by the miracle of the transformation of the elements. In other words, one has to posit the additional miracle of transubstantiation (or at least consubstantiation) in order to have the physical presence.

If Calvin and the Reformed believe that we are actually transported to heaven to meet Jesus there (during Holy Communion), why is it so difficult to believe that He can substantially be present here under the appearances of bread and wine? Both scenarios involve something that transcends our senses, and must be believed on faith. But I think one involves a logical contradiction and the other does not.

We say it is the accidents which are spiritual and not what they appear to be. So Reformed say, “He is truly here physically, but you are not physically eating His body.” Catholics say, “He is truly here physically, and you are physically eating His body, even though it appears to be merely bread and wine.” I do see a certain symmetry between the two views because both are saying that you have to deny the evidence of your senses and believe that something miraculous is taking place. The difference is that we cannot yet be in heaven with Jesus because we are not yet glorified bodies and spirits as He is. He can make Himself physically present with us because He is God and can do anything. We can’t literally be with Jesus in heaven until we die and go there or unless we have some miraculous experience like Paul, being taken up to the third heaven.

Sure, we must all admit that God could conceivably perform a miracle like that, too, but I see no reason to believe that He in fact does, because there is no indication in Scripture that such a thing occurs at every Eucharist. Thus, I would say that the Reformed view fails the tests both of Scripture and patristic belief.

We’re told by Reformed that Jesus is physically present at the Lord’s Supper, but not in the bread (or what was formerly bread). This makes no sense, and is contradictory:

1. Jesus is physically present in the Supper.

2. Jesus is not physically present in the bread and wine.

3. But the Supper and the bread and wine are synonymous.

4. Therefore, it follows that Jesus is somehow physically present and not physically present at the same time, which is a contradiction and impossible.

If Reformed Protestants want to stress the literal human body of Jesus in heaven (and the counter-charge is that we are somehow minimizing this in our view, and obliterating Chalcedonian Christology), and want to make the Eucharist dependent on, or limited by that, then it is strange to make Jesus “physical” in the Eucharist (but not in the bread) and to hold that “the Holy Spirit, in this Sacrament, raises us to Christ where, mysteriously, we feed on his true body and blood.” It’s this constant irrational shifting between “mystical” and “physical” which is the problem. Reformed Protestants refer to a literal feeding on Christ, but He is in heaven, etc. . . . But now we are told that it is a “mystical” presence. So which is it? And how is any of this less difficult to believe than transubstantiation?

I see little (if any) indication in either Scripture or the history of doctrine prior to Calvin and Zwingli that we somehow meet Jesus in heaven (“physically”) during the Eucharist before we actually arrive there after death.

Transubstantiation is not self-contradictory. It is a difficult concept, unusual, a profound miracle which requires exceptional faith, but involves no logical inconsistency. God can do any miracle He so chooses. He can transform the bread and wine into His Body and Blood. That makes sense to me because if God could become a Man He can make Himself substantially present in consecrated elements that were formerly bread and wine.

But the view Reformed Protestants describe strikes me as quite incoherent. God became a Man, and He is omnipresent. But neither men nor heaven are omnipresent nor able to be transformed in a second. Jesus has a real body in heaven, and heaven is a place. We will go there one day if we are among the elect, or we will go to hell.

So why should we believe that we literally visit heaven when we receive the Eucharist? This sounds more like “beam me up Scotty” than biblical Christianity! Do we cease to be in the location we are worshiping in when we receive communion? We are then in heaven with the literal body of Jesus? How long do we stay there? How do we know when we have returned? Since heaven is distinct from the earth, we can’t be here and there at the same time. So this position means that we must leave the earth during communion. Apparently it has to be literal because we’re told that we truly receive Jesus’ body substantially, and Calvin restricts His literal body to heaven.

This requires a transformation of physics to the extent that a contradiction is involved. Why should I believe I am in heaven during this time when there is no outward evidence of it whatsoever? I suspect the comeback would be, “What’s the essential difference? Why should we believe bread and wine have become transformed into body and blood?” It is true that transubstantiation goes beyond the senses too, but it involves God becoming bodily present to us here on earth. We know that is both plausible and entirely possible because of the incarnation.

But in the Calvinist view, it is not God who miraculously appears; rather it is heaven and earth and man which are involved. Since heaven and earth are distinguishable, we can’t say we are in both at the same time. Men are not like God. We have no attributes like omnipresence or bilocation. And I see no compelling reason to believe that God performs these super-extraordinary miracles every time we receive the Eucharist.

What is also curious to me is the comparison in this thinking between the concern that Jesus’ body is in heaven (and if we allow His body to also be here on earth we are supposedly denying Chalcedon), with the simultaneous belief that mere men’s bodies can be taken up to heaven while we are looking at them ostensibly remaining here in a church. One idea is replaced with another (in my opinion) far more implausible and a priori unlikely one.

The same serious problem remains: if we can only receive Jesus’ body substantially in heaven, then we have to go there to receive Him, and this defies all outward appearances. It would require a miraculous transformation of our bodies, and some strange reversal of the location of heaven and earth. Calvin wrote in his Institutes (IV, 17, 12):

For as we do not doubt that Christ’s body is limited by the general characteristics common to all human bodies, and is contained in heaven (where it was once for all received) until Christ return in judgment, so we deem it utterly unlawful to draw it back under these corruptible elements or to imagine it to be present everywhere.

This is the incoherence and implausibility of Calvin’s view (as I see it) in a nutshell: Calvin limits Christ’s body to heaven, as if it is unthinkable and a priori impossible (“utterly unlawful”) for God to choose to make Himself present in the matter of bread and wine, just as He became Man. But then he turns around and grants these remarkable qualities to men, so that we can somehow go to heaven to receive Jesus’ body which can only be localized there (as if it is more likely for God to let men have these qualities rather than Himself). Is this not strange?

While denying that Jesus can perform miracles with His body and become substantially present under the appearances of bread and wine, Calvin prefers to give the miraculous, spectacular qualities to men‘s bodies. But we’re not the ones who walked on water, who walked through walls, who were resurrected from the dead (not yet) or who ascended to heaven (and came down from heaven also). Why is it “unlawful” for Jesus to become eucharistically present on earth, but totally believable for us to become present in heaven to worship God and receive Him? This makes no sense.

Furthermore, Calvin caricatures the Catholic and Lutheran Eucharist in saying that those positions require that Christ’s body is “present everywhere,” rather than the Holy Spirit. Omnipresence refers to spirit, not matter. Being present bodily in many places is not being present everywhere. If Jesus could multiply the loaves and fishes, why could He not multiply His body and blood, to be sacramentally and physically present in consecrated elements? I see (contra Calvin) no reason to believe why He could or would not do so. Calvin reiterates in Institutes, IV, 17, 30:

Unless the body of Christ can be everywhere at once [same category mistake repeated], without limitation of place, it will not be credible that he lies hidden under bread in the Supper.

Also:

. . . placing the body itself in the bread, they assign to it a ubiquity contrary to its nature . . . (IV, 17, 16)

So Christ Himself (Who is omnipotent; and Calvin accepts that, last time I checked) is limited by place, but we are not? God makes us somehow go to heaven to receive the Eucharist? If we can only receive Jesus substantially there, then we need to go there. But then we have characteristics that Calvin curiously denies even to Jesus’ body. That is odd enough. If, on the other hand, we don’t go to heaven to receive Him, then we do not receive His literal body, since Calvin (by some incomprehensible reasoning known only to himself) restricts it to heaven. Either way, it is implausible and illogical.

Calvin specifically restricts Christ’s body to heaven. But he says that we go up to heaven only “with our eyes and minds”:

But if we are lifted up to heaven with our eyes and minds, to seek Christ there in the glory of his Kingdom, as the symbols invite us to him in his wholeness, so under the symbol of bread we shall be fed his body . . . (IV, 17, 18)

So here he denies that we literally go to heaven. Therefore, how can we receive Jesus’ body substantially since Calvin has already limited Jesus to heaven? It can only (given simple logic) be symbolic, thus we are back to Zwingli again. Calvin keeps contradicting himself over and over:

This Kingdom is neither bounded by location in space nor circumscribed by any limits. Thus Christ is not prevented from exerting his power wherever he pleases, in heaven and on earth. (IV, 17, 18)

Huh??? Why, then, does Calvin rule out a local bodily presence on earth in the Eucharist, and rail against transubstantiation as if it were the devil himself?:

. . . we do not think it is lawful for us to drag him from heaven. (IV, 17, 31)

Yet Calvin thinks his view:

. . . contains nothing either absurd or obscure or ambiguous . . . (IV, 17, 19) 

I beg to differ. Calvin rails against the Catholic view, yet when it comes time to explain the incoherence and contradictions in his own view, he conveniently appeals to mystery:

Now, if anyone should ask me how this takes place, I shall not be ashamed to confess that it is a secret too lofty for either my mind to comprehend or my words to declare . . .

Those who are carried beyond this by their own exaggerations do nothing but obscure simple and plain truth . . . we are now discussing a sacrament the whole of which must be referred to faith. (IV, 17, 32)

I’m sure Calvin can’t fully explain himself, but in any event, the presence of demonstrated logical contradiction would rule out a view, no matter how much or how little we understand it. And that is my present critique. Moreover, if his view requires faith, why can’t Catholics hold to their beliefs in faith without being accused of a host of ridiculous things by Calvin?

But then I don’t know how much Calvin’s view developed after the Institutes. Perhaps these contradictions were alleviated.

Nor do I see such a thing in Scripture. God can make the Cross become present to us again in the Sacrifice of the Mass because He is outside of time and everything is “present” or “now” to Him. And so we see reference to a “Lamb slain” in heaven. But I see no indication that the Eucharist involves this “heavenly transplantation”.

Calvin and his followers provide a few biblical passages: Hebrews 6:4-8 is not about the Eucharist, but about apostasy. We can hardly deduce a heavenly eucharistic service from the phrase “tasted of the heavenly gift.” Nor is it clear that “partakers of the Holy Spirit” refers to more than the Indwelling and the Spirit’s guidance as the Paraclete.

As for Hebrews 10:19-25, Calvin himself relegates the passage to allegory, in his Commentary on Hebrews (dated 1549):

10:19: . . . he allegorically describes the access which Christ has opened to us.

He does, however, also state:

. . not only symbolically, but in reality an entrance into heaven is made open to us . . . 

But he doesn’t elaborate as to how this occurs. Nor does he seem to apply this interpretation to Hebrews 12:18-24, in the same Commentary.

***

Some elements of Calvin’s presentation seem to be quite close to transubstantiation, and others seem to me either playing with words, and smacking of internal incoherence and inconsistency (my initial impression of his eucharistic theology) or a glorified “mystical Zwinglianism,” or a system closer to that than to the Catholic and Lutheran beliefs.

St. Thomas Aquinas denies that Jesus’ body is in the Eucharist “locally” or “as in a place.” Would that overcome Calvin’s objection about Jesus being at the right hand of the Father?:

Whether Christ’s body is in this sacrament as in a place?

Objection 1: It seems that Christ’s body is in this sacrament as in a place. Because, to be in a place definitively or circumscriptively belongs to being in a place. But Christ’s body seems to be definitively in this sacrament, because it is so present where the species of the bread and wine are, that it is nowhere else upon the altar: likewise it seems to be there circumscriptively, because it is so contained under the species of the consecrated host, that it neither exceeds it nor is exceeded by it. Therefore Christ’s body is in this sacrament as in a place.

Objection 2: Further, the place of the bread and wine is not empty, because nature abhors a vacuum; nor is the substance of the bread there, as stated above (Question [75], Article [2]); but only the body of Christ is there. Consequently the body of Christ fills that place. But whatever fills a place is there locally. Therefore the body of Christ is in this sacrament locally.

Objection 3: Further, as stated above (Article [4]), the body of Christ is in this sacrament with its dimensive quantity, and with all its accidents. But to be in a place is an accident of a body; hence “where” is numbered among the nine kinds of accidents. Therefore Christ’s body is in this sacrament locally.

On the contrary, The place and the object placed must be equal, as is clear from the Philosopher (Phys. iv). But the place, where this sacrament is, is much less than the body of Christ. Therefore Christ’s body is not in this sacrament as in a place.

I answer that, As stated above (Article [1], ad 3; Article [3]), Christ’s body is in this sacrament not after the proper manner of dimensive quantity, but rather after the manner of substance. But every body occupying a place is in the place according to the manner of dimensive quantity, namely, inasmuch as it is commensurate with the place according to its dimensive quantity. Hence it remains that Christ’s body is not in this sacrament as in a place, but after the manner of substance, that is to say, in that way in which substance is contained by dimensions; because the substance of Christ’s body succeeds the substance of bread in this sacrament: hence as the substance of bread was not locally under its dimensions, but after the manner of substance, so neither is the substance of Christ’s body. Nevertheless the substance of Christ’s body is not the subject of those dimensions, as was the substance of the bread: and therefore the substance of the bread was there locally by reason of its dimensions, because it was compared with that place through the medium of its own dimensions; but the substance of Christ’s body is compared with that place through the medium of foreign dimensions, so that, on the contrary, the proper dimensions of Christ’s body are compared with that place through the medium of substance; which is contrary to the notion of a located body.

Hence in no way is Christ’s body locally in this sacrament.

Reply to Objection 1: Christ’s body is not in this sacrament definitively, because then it would be only on the particular altar where this sacrament is performed: whereas it is in heaven under its own species, and on many other altars under the sacramental species. Likewise it is evident that it is not in this sacrament circumscriptively, because it is not there according to the commensuration of its own quantity, as stated above. But that it is not outside the superficies of the sacrament, nor on any other part of the altar, is due not to its being there definitively or circumscriptively, but to its being there by consecration and conversion of the bread and wine, as stated above (Article [1]; Question [15], Article [2], sqq.).

Reply to Objection 2: The place in which Christ’s body is, is not empty; nor yet is it properly filled with the substance of Christ’s body, which is not there locally, as stated above; but it is filled with the sacramental species, which have to fill the place either because of the nature of dimensions, or at least miraculously, as they also subsist miraculously after the fashion of substance.

Reply to Objection 3: As stated above (Article [4]), the accidents of Christ’s body are in this sacrament by real concomitance. And therefore those accidents of Christ’s body which are intrinsic to it are in this sacrament. But to be in a place is an accident when compared with the extrinsic container. And therefore it is not necessary for Christ to be in this sacrament as in a place.

Here are instances of Calvin’s use of “substance” (and a few of “presence”) in his Short Treatise on the Lord’s Supper). Emphases are added:

. . . the substance of the sacraments is the Lord Jesus . . . It is necessary, then, that the substance should be conjoined with these, otherwise nothing would be firm or certain. Hence we conclude that two things are presented to us in the Supper, viz., Jesus Christ as the source and substance of all good; and, secondly, the fruit and efficacy of his death and passion. (11)

. . . all the benefit which we should seek in the Supper is annihilated if Jesus Christ be not there given to us as the substance and foundation of all. (12)


. . . in order to have our life in Christ our souls must feed on his body and blood as their proper food. This, then, is expressly attested in the Supper, when of the bread it is said to us that we are to take it and eat it, and that it is his body, and of the cup that we are to drink it, and that it is his blood. This is expressly spoken of the body and blood, in order that we may learn to seek there the substance of our spiritual life. (13)


Thus it is with the communion which we have in. the body and blood of the Lord Jesus. It is a spiritual mystery which can neither be seen by the eye nor comprehended by the human understanding. It is therefore figured to us by visible signs, according as our weakness requires, in such manner, nevertheless, that it is not a bare figure but is combined with the reality and substance. It is with good reason then that the bread is called the body, since it not only represents but also presents it to us . . . the sacraments of the Lord should not and cannot be at all separated from their reality and substance. (16)


We must confess, then, that if the representation which God gives us in the Supper is true, the internal substance of the sacrament is conjoined with the visible signs; and as the bread is distributed to us by the hand, so the body of Christ is communicated to us in order that we may be made partakers of it. Though there should be nothing more, we have good cause to be satisfied, when we understand that Jesus Christ gives us in the Supper the proper substance of his body and blood, in order that we may possess it fully, and possessing it have part in all his blessings. (17)


. . . feeding on his own substance. (18)


. . . the reality and substance of the Supper . . .  (30)


. . . the presence and conjunction of the reality with the sign (of which we have spoken, and will again speak) is well understood. (43)


Zuinglius and Œcolompadius . . . forgot to show what presence of Jesus Christ ought to be believed in the Supper, and what communion of his body and blood is `there received . . . Luther thought that they meant to leave nothing but the bare signs without their spiritual substance. Accordingly he began to resist them to the face, and call them heretics. (56-57)


. . . on receiving the sacrament in faith, according to the ordinance of the Lord, we are truly made partakers of the proper substance of the body and blood of Jesus Christ. (60)

Likewise, in the Institutes, Calvin insists on denying “local physical presence,” yet continues to insist that the recipient of communion receives Jesus’ literal “substantial” body and blood. Either he is contradicting himself right and left and simply doesn’t care (the “faith has nothing to do with logic” outlook) or he hasn’t shown how his view is at all superior to transubstantiation theologically or logically, thus making his extremely hostile rhetoric against transubstantiation and the Sacrifice of the Mass mostly empty, groundless rhetoric. Here are some more relevant quotes, from the Beveridge translation of the Institutes, available online:

The presence of Christ in the Supper we must hold to be such as neither affixes him to the element of bread, nor encloses him in bread, nor circumscribes him in any way, (this would obviously detract from his celestial glory;) and it must, moreover, be such as neither divests him of his just dimensions, nor dissevers him by differences of place, nor assigns to him a body of boundless dimensions, diffused through heaven and earth . . . But when these absurdities are discarded, I willingly admit any thing which helps to express the true and substantial communication of the body and blood of the Lord, as exhibited to believers under the sacred symbols of the Supper, understanding that they are received not by the imagination or intellect merely, but are enjoyed in reality as the food of eternal life. (IV, 17, 19)

We say that Christ descends to us, as well by the external symbol as by his Spirit, that he may truly quicken our souls by the substance of his flesh and blood. (IV, 17, 24)

Still I am free to confess that that mixture or transfusion of the flesh of Christ with our souls which they teach I repudiate, because it is enough for us, that Christ, out of the substance of his flesh, breathes life into our souls, nay, diffuses his own life into us, though the real flesh of Christ does not enter us. (IV, 17, 32 — a remarkably incoherent and contradictory statement)

***

In Douglas Farrow’s article, “Between the Rock and a Hard Place: In Support of (something like) a Reformed View of the Eucharist,” my difficulty is at least expressed (if not granted):

“Might it not be admitted that there is a fundamental problem with Calvin’s sursum corda and with his interpretation of the eucharistic mystery — viz., that the body of the worshipper, unlike his or her soul, appears to be uninvolved in the secret union and communion with Christ in the heavenlies . . . ?” (p. 4 in pdf file)

Describing Aquinas’ view on the next page, Farrow writes:

“. . . by virtue of his divine omnipresence and omnipotence as the Logos, Jesus is able to provide on earth a eucharistic form of his humanity under the accidents of the bread and wine, making present (albeit non-spatially) the actual substance of his exalted body and blood . . . Was Calvin . . . over-hasty in exchanging this account of the presence of the absent Christ for one which leaves Christ strictly in heaven, and which postulates rather a secret relocation of the worshipperthrough faith and the ministry of the Spirit? . . . If we are not permitted to appeal to the miracle of transubstantiation, how are we to conceive of a real union of soul and body with the heavenly Christ? . . . Prima facie it is by no means apparent that a simple appeal to the Spirit can justify such claims, if by them we mean to include our corporeal nature and with it the entire sphere of human culture.”

On p. 12 he states:

“The simple fact of the matter is that Calvin’s view is not unlike that of Aquinas — which is to say, it is an entirely orthodox view, however tainted by cosmological misinformation.”

See also his footnote 41 on p. 14:

“. . . one meets today relatively few Reformed theologians who take the eucharist with anything like the seriousness that Calvin did.”

[Earlier he had noted that the notable 19th-century Presbyterian theologian Charles Hodge actually had a Zwinglian view]

In good scholarly fashion, Farrow mentions these difficulties of mine in his overview of the controversy, but doesn’t really answer them (at least not to my satisfaction). So I continue to seek answers to the dilemma.

***

I disagree with Calvin’s view and find it self-contradictory, and of course I don’t care for his excessive polemical lambasting of the Catholic position, but I can appreciate the view that his theology is far more “realist” than the usual Protestant position today (even amongst his own followers, according to you guys who have commented on that).

Calvin’s eucharistic theology reminds me of Luther’s Mariology: both were much “higher” than most later Lutherans and Calvinists held. Those facts lend themselves to the view that some Protestant theological trends seem to be primarily of a negative nature” in reaction to Rome rather than proactive and proceeding from the best in Protestant internal principles, from the thought of the key figures of Luther and Calvin.

Calvin adheres to a “mystical presence.” Luther and Catholics accept substantial presence (which is a more accurate term for our view than “real presence”). I think Calvin’s view (with all due respect) is confused, and not able to be defended on solid philosophical (or for that matter, theological and exegetical) grounds. It seems incoherent and, frankly, strange, to me. He wants the presence of Christ to be real, yet he has to separate the consecrated elements by making them symbols. I don’t see how this mode of “presence” is distinguishable from God’s omnipresence. Of course, God is everywhere, and He is always everywhere. So of what additional use is a symbolic (or semi-symbolic) “reality” that is not substantial?

The whole miracle of the Eucharist is that it is an extension of the incarnation: Jesus actually became a man: a physical person, and walked among us. Transubstantiation means that Jesus is actually present just as He was when He walked the earth. But the rub is that it always requires faith to believe this, because the accidents remain the same, and it seems nonsensical to a naturalistic mind that what looks like bread and wine really aren’t. I think that causes disbelief in it: I would call it an excessive rationalism, and I say that Calvin (and Zwingli) succumbed in part to that. They can’t accept the miracle that all the Fathers accepted.

Of course the comeback is that it is not a “rational” thing, but a mystery, but I reply that even mysteries don’t have to be (indeed, should not be) contrary to reason; they can be reasonable as far as reason goes, and then require faith for those aspects which transcend (but do not contradict) reason.

This is the Catholic view: always reason and faith; not faith and reason some of the time, or reason and faith some of the time, or faith and unreason, or faith as unalterably opposed to reason, etc. We will not yield the mind or reason. The Bible doesn’t require such a thing. So why does anyone go that route? I’ve never understood it.

***

Catholic mystical theologian Matthias Scheeben wrote about the Eucharist in his book, The Mysteries of Christianity (translated by Cyril Vollert, S. J., St. Louis: B. Herder Book Co., 1952; from 1887 edition, pp. 485-486, 488):

The Eucharistic presence of Christ is in itself a reflection and extension of His incarnation, as the Fathers so often observe. The changing of the bread into the body of Christ by the power of the Holy Spirit is a renewal of the wonderful act by which, in the power of the same Holy Spirit, He originally formed His body in the womb of the Virgin and took it to His person . . .

But this presence is multiplied only that the body of Christ may grow and spread throughout the members which He attaches to Himself and fuses with Himself. For this reason alone the true body of Christ is reproduced at the Consecration, that He may unite Himself with individual men in Communion and become one body with them, so that the Logos may, as it were, become man anew in each man, by taking the human nature of each into union with His own . . .

So completely do we become one with Christ that we can say with deep truth that we belong to the person of Christ, and in a sense are Christ Himself. “Christ is the Church,” says St. Hilary, ‘bearing it wholly within Himself by the sacrament of His body’ . . .

This participation in the divine nature is at the same time a replenishing of man with the Holy Spirit and a fellowship with Him. Since the Holy Spirit dwells in the body of Christ in a quite singular way by a very real union, He must also pour Himself out upon those who have been joined to Christ in one body. That we are filled with the Holy Spirit, that the Eucharist becomes a fellowship with the Holy Spirit for those who partake of it, and that we are all joined to one another in the fellowship of the one Holy Spirit, we find indicated in the ancient liturgies as the aim and effect of the Eucharist.

***

Photo credit: John Calvin, by Georg Osterwald (1803–1884) [public domain / Wikimedia Commons]

***

 

November 16, 2017

JesusPassion3
(10-10-06)
***

I reply to the comments of “drunken tune” (never was there a more apt nickname) on the Debunking Christianity blog:

***

Here’s some short answers that most Christians will have trouble with. Us atheists need not answer them because they do not contradict with [sic] atheism, 

Well, you have plenty of your own to deal with, so I wouldn’t wish more upon you.

but they do with Christianity. 

According to you . . .

While atheism may be depressing for some, 

It should be for all, but people have a great capacity to make meaning where there should ultimately be none, given their presuppositions. One sees the dichotomy in your own comments.

it’s better than following a contradictory lie that makes you feel good.

I agree with the concept expressed here; but deny that it applies to Christianity rather than atheism.

[1] When earthquakes occur, or children are hacked to pieces, where is your god? 

Being hacked to pieces and slowly murdered on the cross.

If he’s absent, then he’s not omnipotent or all-good.

Obviously, He was willing to take on the suffering that many of us have to endure. He is there with any victim who calls out to Him (even if they don’t), but it doesn’t necessarily follow that He should prevent all suffering.

This is what I delved into, in my long paper on the problem of evil. The atheist casually assumes that God should intervene in every tragic situation and use the miraculous to do so, without stopping to consider what this would entail: what sort of weird world (in terms of the natural order) it would require.

I made the point that atheists are extremely reluctant to allow any divine intervention in matters of nature and will despise even theistic evolutionary attempts to do so in any way, shape, or form, yet if we switch over to this discussion on evil, all of a sudden, if God doesn’t do thousands of miracles per second, then He is either bad or not there at all.

I make the argument (too involved to briefly summarize) that there is, therefore, some necessity for the world being the way it is, and that God is bound to the laws of logic, insofar as natural disaster and natural evil occurs. It is unreasonable to assume that He must perform millions of miracles so we never suffer at all. Other evil is clearly a result of man’s inhumanity to man, and it is foolish to blame God for it. We have the capacity to eliminate much of that.

[2] Then is it free will? That must be why people act so horribly to each other. 

The presence of free will makes it possible that it will be abused, yes. We believe that God thought it better to allow free will and the evil that can result, rather than make robots who can do no other than what they do. God made it possible for you to be so free that He even allows you to believe foolish things like denying that He exists. That’s extremely tolerant, isn’t it? It would be like me saying, “hey, you can believe whatever you want, even that I don’t exist.” And He is the one Who created you; without Whom you wouldn’t be here at all.

Yet, how much choice does the baby born with Down’s Syndrome have? 

That is not explained by free will, but rather, by the nature of the natural world, which will (properly examined and thought through) entail such things (in this instance, because genetics is not an absolutely perfect system). C. S. Lewis wrote:

We can, perhaps, conceive of a world in which God corrected the results of this abuse of free will by His creatures at every moment: so that a wooden beam became soft as grass when it was used as a weapon, and the air refused to obey me if I attempted to set up in it the sound waves that carry lies or insults. But such a world would be one in which wrong actions were impossible, and in which, therefore, freedom of the will would be void . . . All matter in the neighbourhood of a wicked man would be liable to undergo unpredictable alterations. That God can and does, on occasions, modify the behaviour of matter and produce what we call miracles, is part of the Christian faith; but the very conception of a common, and therefore, stable, world, demands that these occasions should be extremely rare . . .

. . . fixed laws, consequences unfolding by causal necessity, the whole natural order, are at once the limits within which their common life is confined and also the sole condition under which any such life is possible. (The Problem of Pain, New York: Macmillan, 1962 [originally 1940], 33-34)

If we’re given free will by this being, and I believed in him, I’d pray every day that he’d take our free will away. Anything to stop the powerful from oppressing the weak.

He obviously thought differently, and He (being omniscient) knows better than we do, why the world is the way it is. This was essentially the perspective of the Book of Job. It makes a lot of sense, if one presupposes for the sake of argument, the theistic God. If He does exist and is all-knowing, then who are we to try to second-guess Him, no matter how perplexing we may think the world is?

[3] So then is it that we all ‘have a purpose’? 

Indeed.

When truly horrible things happen to people that do not deserve to suffer, is your god behind this? 

He allows the evil to happen for a higher purpose (often so high we cannot comprehend it). He was certainly behind the crucifixion. That had the utmost purpose, even though the thing itself was horrendous evil. God (the Father) took it and made it the means for the salvation of mankind. He used the intended evil for good.

If that’s so, stop revering a monster. If this guy’s all-powerful, then he’s nothing more than a little boy with a magnifying glass standing over his ant colony. 

But you still have to establish your assumed premise that God must necessarily intervene in every tragedy, or cease to be good or all-powerful. You seem to be unable to comprehend how a theistic world could contain suffering or that much suffering could be the result of 1) natural laws of nature, and 2) malicious human free will.

The truly amazing thing to explain is how heroism and goodness and human love, of a selfless character, and good qualities in cultures at large, continue to exist, in such a meaningless universe.

For example, there was a ton of suffering in World War II, yet it could have been prevented if Germany had not been allowed to build up its military and install a fascist regime (ditto for Japan). So that evil (itself caused by man’s stupidity and failure of foresight) caused tremendous suffering, yet at the same time there was opportunity for great, wonderful, selfless acts of love, in order to alleviate the suffering brought on by human idiocy and blindness.

And the fact remains that the bad guys were beaten. The world was not entirely meaningless and hopeless. The evil people were beaten and their plans thwarted. I could just as well say that God caused that to happen in His larger plan, rather than irrationally blame God for the origins of that tragic conflict, when it was man’s fault for not preventing it. You look at all the bad things and blame God without cause, but one can also look at how God used the evil to bring about good, in many specific instances and overall.

The child that gets run over by a speeding car had a purpose in being violently crushed to death under the wheel of a hummer? I think not.

In and of itself, it does appear meaningless, senseless, and outrageous, I admit. It certainly is in atheism, because this life is all there is. But when there is an eternal life ahead of us, tragic events like this are not the be-all and end-all. God can even use such horrors to bring about good. The parents can be a witness of hope, when all would be looking to them to be crushed under the weight of agony and sorrow. It’s not humanly possible to endure such suffering, but it is possible by God’s grace. And that can be a witness that can bring about the salvation of many, which would be a wonderful thing brought about by the bad, hence giving it meaning it would not have by itself.

In fact, my wife knows a couple who had a young child who was behind their car, then the father backed up and crushed him to death. I can’t even begin to imagine what that would have been like. I could not endure that on my own; I couldn’t even start. I would want to kill myself on the spot.

But this poor couple survived and gave the glory to God. They didn’t lose faith. They didn’t become atheists like so many of you, for far lesser reasons. And that is because we Christians believe there is a purpose and meaning to everything, no matter how incomprehensible to us, and there is another world coming, where all will be made right and just, and suffering will cease.

In any case, Christianity has just devalued life. 

Not at all; it is ultimately meaningless atheism which does that. Life has the highest meaning in the Christian worldview, which encompasses suffering and transcends it, even though it is very difficult for us to comprehend.

We’re either robots following a master plan, there’s a purpose to every horrible thing happening, 

It’s not an intrinsic purpose, but a purpose insofar as God can use tragedy brought on by evil or the natural world, to bring about a higher good. I gave two examples above. But the existence of free will of necessity entails suffering, because free beings really can rebel and cause untold misery.

or we’ve just blamed the baby for bad genes. 

Of course we don’t blame the baby.

If you believe in god, then anything is then permissible.

Quite the contrary; God is the only sensible ground for a system of absolute ethics; otherwise everything is arbitrary and relativistic. That’s why by far the greatest evils have been perpetrated by cultures that rejected Christianity and put man in the driver’s seat (Nazi Germany, Maoist China; Leninist and Stalinist Russia, etc.)

Now we slaughter children in their mother’s wombs (in America) at a 4000 a day rate. Is that God’s fault, too, or a result of human beings playing God? Yet for some reason I hear precious little protest about that in all these ghastly scenarios meant to “disprove” God. You mention a child being run over, but not having its brains sucked out upon emerging from the womb or being torn limb from limb. Is that God’s fault, or the “doctor’s” who does it, and the society which permits such monstrosities to be legalized and called “good”? Is that a result of Christianity or of secularism and the worship of unbridled sex without responsibility, which involves butchering children that inevitably result from unhindered, amoral sexuality?

John W. Loftus chimed in, with regard to the ubiquitous Hitler connection:

I have a whole section in my book devoted to the question, “What is Life Without God?” that if you really want a detailed answer to this question you should get. What I was arguing for is that if God exists then he did wrong for allowing Hitler to kill and kill and kill. 

Hitler is either “allowed” by necessity of human free will or else we have no free will. God obviously thought free will was preferable to being automatons. But in this instance, clearly, we could have prevented what happened.

In the natural world something must be killed so that some other carnivore can eat. This is the world your God set up. 

That is the animal world. If you want to directly compare that world with human beings, and make us merely an evolutionary development of it (i.e., in a completely naturalistic sense; I am not condemning theistic evolution), then you have huge problems of your own, since how can you argue that cannibalism is more wrong for human beings than for animals (especially in a eat-anything-to-survive environment, such as the famous Donner party)? Atheists will play games and make out that people are qualitatively different, but this is nonsensical within your paradigm, which has man evolving directly from this same animal kingdom, wherein survival of the fittest is the natural order of things.

Thus, e.g., eugenics was justified by the Nazis and folks like Margaret Sanger, founder of Planned Parenthood (who got a lot of her racist ideas from the Nazis) on evolutionary grounds. The real difficulties, then, lie on your side. You have to differentiate men from the animals, in order to have any rational system of ethics, but you have no basis to do so. Christianity, on the other hand, can easily make the distinction, based on the notion of a soul, which makes human beings quite different from the animals; also the fact that man is made in God’s image. The supernatural, non-material fact of a soul makes the qualitative difference

That makes him worse than Hitler by a long long shot.

Really? I don’t see how:

1) God allows free will.

2) Free will entails the possibility of rebellion and evil.

3) Hitler ushered in one such massive societal rebellion against civilization and evil campaign.

4) God is to blame for Hitler’s evil because He allowed free will.

5) Man isn’t to blame for Hitler’s evil, even though he had the capacity to prevent it altogether.

This is irrational. It makes no more sense to blame God for the evil choices of creatures He created free than it does to blame a good parent for sins of a child of his or her own volition, committed after the parent trusted the child to be responsible with its freedom. You can’t blame one being for the sins of another; at some point there is individual responsibility. That’s why it is ridiculous to blame God for Hitler.

But even if that made any sense, why do you atheists not give God any credit for all the good which comes from free will? If you want to hold Him accountable for all the bad things that men do to each other, or the natural events that can hardly be otherwise in a sensible, orderly universe, then how come you never give Him any credit for anything?

Hitler’s Germany was a Christian nation and all you can do is to ask about Hitler from my perspective? 

The people may have been, but the regime was not, by any stretch of the imagination. It was a grotesque mixture of corrupted romanticism, paganism, and occultism. The Final Solution was not justified on Christian grounds.

My conclusion (2) is that Hitler did wrong because he killed people, and I value people because I’m a person. 

Good for you. It ain’t rocket science.

I have sympathy for people who suffer like that under such a dictator. I would’ve stopped Hitler if I could, but your God did nothing. 

If He stopped Hitler by the miraculous and abrogation of his free will, then we would have a world where no one was free, and every bad, evil thing is immediately prevented: precisely the sort of world which is the utter opposite of what atheists argue must be the case in terms of naturalistic science. If you don’t allow the slightest intervention of God in the natural world (intelligent design, etc.) then why do you demand it when it comes to the problem of evil?

So in the realm of science, you argue that God can’t exist, period, simply because the natural world is what it is (i.e., assumed as a matter of unproven naturalistic dogma), and allows no supernatural, yet in order for God to be “allowed” to exist where suffering abounds, He must intervene constantly and never cease or else you will mock Him as nonexistent or a weakling or a monster, worse than Hitler, etc. And somehow these utterly contradictory scenarios coexist in one brain and one intellectual conglomeration. And we’re supposed to be impressed by such literal nonsense?

That makes my moral code better than your God’s moral code, because he let Hitler kill and kill and kill. 

No; men did that. They allowed it to start up in the first place. Then one can blame German people who refused to stand up against the evil when it came to their country, because it cost them something. We’ve far surpassed the German people in our sins of omission, because we sit idly by in America today while 4400 children a day are slaughtered. We call it “choice” or “sexual freedom” or “expedience” or “a career.”

But how is it any better for that to take place in our abortuaries than it was for Nazi atrocities to occur in concentration camps? Hitler killed six million Jews. Legal child-killing in America has now taken 44 million lives in the most hideous fashion. Again: is that God’s fault, or man’s, for allowing it to take place while doing nothing? Or is a tiny human life of less value than a grown Jewish person’s life? One unfortunate group was murdered because of ethnicity and religion; the other because of the sin of being small, helpless, and yet unborn.

I see no difference. But lots of people do. So spare me your sanctimonious tripe about Hitler and this supposedly having something to do with the morality of God, while most atheists (and some half of Christians also) wink at abortion and pretend it is not the abominable evil and outrage that it is.

You say my moral code is subjectively chosen? Well then, where does your God’s moral code come from?

It’s eternal. Therefore, it “comes from” nothing. It always existed in God. God is Love. Yours is certainly subjective because you can’t create an absolute larger than yourself and applicable to all, no matter how hard you try. That has to come from a Being Who transcends creation and mankind itself.

[ now back to drunken logic, er tune]:

Your god is behind the scenes, tapering with our genetic code, is he not? He’s in control of the whole . . . universe! Isn’t he there in every cancer cell and every quadriplegic’s broken spinal cord? Your god chooses what happens, and knows what will happen. Where is the free will when a baby is shot in the head, or your mother falls down the stairs?

. . . Now your god is allowing these atrocities to happen? How do you know he never intended to control everything? He’s all-powerful. He can’t just give up his power, otherwise he isn’t all-powerful, and is then only semi-powerful. He’s practically enabling these diabolical actions to take place. He is nothing more than a demon that allows horrible things to happen to innocent people, and deserves no submission from you or me.

Wow; you’re getting awfully angry at a nonexistent thing. I don’t spend my time getting into a lather about how unjust the man in the moon made of green cheese is or what a rascally scoundrel Darth Vader or Dracula is. Funny that you would do that with a mere fairy-tale known as “god.”

I always say that a radical feminist is someone who hates men yet tries her hardest to be exactly like them in almost all respects. You know: the identifying with the oppressor routine.

It is now clearly the time and place to define the irrationally angry atheist:

One who hates and gets all worked up against the “god” who doesn’t exist, and who desires to be the exact opposite of the imaginary being whose imaginary qualities he simultaneously vainly imagines and detests.

Man! Talk about an irrational and absurd complex . . .

There is an answer: Once upon a time we evolved, and through copulation and combination of our genes present in a sperm and an egg, we get small variations in the genes that are passed on. Sometimes an environmental factor such as a virus or germ may change the code, or a subdominant gene may be expressed through chance [about 1/4th of the time]. This repeats for a very, very, very long time. And that’s why we have genetic birth defects. The end.

Precisely! This is my argument. Lots of suffering comes from the natural world and what can result from it. It is unreasonable to absolutely demand that God must supersede all such instances in a supernatural way or else we all-wise human beings (not — unlike the imaginary “god” — known for our evil deeds at all) will reject Him and pretend He isn’t even there.

It makes much more sense to accept the natural world as it is and accept that things such as mutations and falling off of cliffs and drowning and fever epidemics will occur and that this casts no doubt on God’s goodness because there is a sense in which it cannot be otherwise. God made the natural world what it is. The laws of science and logic alike apply to it. Sometimes bad things will happen there. Lots of good stuff happens too.

But every good thing can be corrupted and become “evil.” If I get too close to that pretty orange-red-peach sunset sun, I’ll burn (I mean totally burn, not just get sunburn, but the latter is suffering, too). If I don’t watch where my head is, and how long, when I swim, I’ll drown. If I eat a poisonous mushroom, it’ll kill me. And sex (the same exact physical act) can be rape as well as the most beautiful expression of male-female interpersonal oneness and love. It’s all the natural world.

I used to love to play strikeout, where you throw a rubber ball against a brick wall with a strike zone chalked on it and have a one-on-one baseball dual (I still play with my sons, in fact, and I still hit and pitch very good at age 48). That’s pretty natural stuff too. Bats are kind of hard, and mafia hit men have used them to kill people. A guy (Ray Chapman) was killed in 1920 after being struck by a pitch in the major leagues. I had loads of fun playing that game. But the natural world being what it is, and kids being what they are (I was 10 or 11), one day I climbed up this place over a set of stairs, at the school where we played strikeout, to get a ball that someone hit up there.

I was about 20 feet off the ground, and had to go up to another level. So I put some little pieces of brick that were laying there, to step on, in order to climb up to the higher part. I was right on the edge, though, and the little pile collapsed, sending me to the concrete sidewalk below. So the same place that provided so much fun now became quite the opposite. Fortunately, I fainted on the way down and they say that is what saved me. I wound up with a concussion and a sprained wrist: not even a broken bone.

Was that God’s fault, or was it mine for sheer stupidity? Is God supposed to wipe out every child’s curiosity and adventurous spirit and devil-may-care attitude of invulnerabilty and carefree bliss because some will be killed by it? I don’t think so, because that is part of what it means to be a child. It’s easy to say “God should make every child never do stupid stuff so they won’t get hurt.” But think of a world like that:

You want to play baseball? Now you can’t because some kid may let a bat fly after he swings and hit another kid and crush his skull. Okay; better not play then, and God is evil or ain’t there at all because He allows such things. What can God do to make it better? Well, He can make bats mushy and soft. Alright, fine. But how can you hit a ball now? You can’t. So it becomes impossible because to eliminate all suffering, God must make stuff soft so no bad thing can ever happen.

So the atheist may say, “naw; God only has to turn the bat to mush if it is about to hit someone and hurt them.” Alright, so now if we grant that God must do that to be good and retain His omnipotence and existence and be given lip service by atheists, we have to allow the miraculous. Yet atheists fight tooth and nail against miracles as the most implausible, unprovable thing imaginable. Why, they violate the natural law, and this can never happen! And everyone knows that! But now they must happen all over the place so that God can be a good guy and exist after all?

The sheer absurdity of this ridiculous demand is its own refutation. Therefore I accept the contrary: for the natural world to sensibly exist, and for miracles to be rare rather than mundane and perpetually occurring, there must be the possibility of bad things happening in that same natural world. And when they do, it is not rational (let alone fair) to blame God for such tragedies. Based on the reductio ad absurdum above, I reject such a scenario on entirely logical grounds.

***

Photo credit: Flagellation of Christ, by Peter Paul Rubens (1577-1640) [Wikimedia Commons /  Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike 3.0 Unported license]

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November 12, 2017

NEWMAN6

(2013)

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Initially, I got this idea for this chapter from Blessed John Henry Cardinal Newman, Lectures on the Doctrine of Justification (1838), chapter 6. Following the lead of his analogy and exegetical argument, I expanded upon it with my usual Scripture study and comparison of words.

The argument, briefly stated, is an analogical one. “Gift” throughout Scripture means something actually imparted internally to us (as in the spiritual gifts). In the overall context of Romans 5, we see a parallel of “made sinners . . . made righteous” (Rom 5:19) — an argument I have used for years — as well as the additional double analogy of “free gift” of both “justification” (5:16) and of “righteousness” (5:17): used synonymously.

The cumulative effect is quite striking, and strongly confirms the Catholic doctrine of actually infused, imparted, intrinsic righteousness / justification and the convergence of justification and sanctification.

The classic Protestant (Calvinist / Lutheran / evangelical) doctrine by contrast, makes justification merely imputed and external and extrinsic, and formally separates sanctification from justification, while stressing that it is still necessary in the Christian life, helpful, and pleasing to God.

Cardinal Newman in the same chapter also makes a brilliant argument, whereby he virtually equates (with much scriptural proof) the Indwelling of the Holy Spirit (and Son and Father) with justification (more on that later). His book is filled with brilliant exegetical insights such as these.

Romans 5:1-21 (entire chapter)

[Bolded] = God’s actions and/or characteristics

[Bracketed] = our actions against God

[Italicized] = our cooperation with God

[Bolded and italicized] = results of God’s actions and our cooperation

Therefore, since we are justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. [2] Through him we have obtained access to this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in our hope of sharing the glory of God. [3] More than that, we rejoice in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance, [4] and endurance produces character, and character produces hope, [5] and hope does not disappoint us, because God’s love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit which has been given to us. [6] While we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. [7] Why, one will hardly die for a righteous man — though perhaps for a good man one will dare even to die. [8] But God shows his love for us in that while [we were yet sinners] Christ died for us. [9] Since, therefore, we are now justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God. [10] For if while [we were enemies] we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life. [11] Not only so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received our reconciliation. [12] Therefore as [sin came into the world through one man and death through sin], and so [death spread to all men because all men sinned] – [13] [sin indeed was in the world before the law was given], but sin is not counted where there is no law. [14] Yet [death reigned from Adam to Moses] even over those whose sins were not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come. [15] But the free gift is not like the [trespass]. For if [many died through one man’s trespass], much more have the grace of God and the free gift in the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many. [16] And the free gift is not like the [effect of that one man’s sin]. For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brings justification. [17] If, [because of one man’s trespass, death reigned through that one man], much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ. [18] Then as [one man’s trespass led to condemnation for all men], so one man’s act of righteousness leads to acquittal and life for all men. [19] For as [by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners], so by one man’s obedience many will be made righteous. [20] Law came in, to [increase the trespass; but where sin increased], grace abounded all the more, [21] so that, [as sin reigned in death], grace also might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

 

In the same way that we were “made sinners” (the fall and our unregenerate state, which are literal, actual states of being), by Christ’s death we are “made righteous” (a literal, actual state of being rather than a mere abstraction or declaration): Romans 5:19.

Free gift” is also juxtaposed against the “trespass” of Adam and Eve and ourselves as part of that rebellion (5:15-17). The “free gift” is thus equated in context with justification and being “made righteous.” The “free gift” is, or causes simultaneously all of the following:

1) A gift of grace (5:15, 17).

2) A gift given in grace (5:15).

3) Justification (5:16).

4) Righteousness (5:17).

Righteousness, therefore, cannot be separated from justification; it is intrinsic to it, and we arrive at the Catholic doctrine of infused justification (a thing vehemently opposed by Luther and Calvin and Baptists and other evangelicals today). The absolute proof is in the two related analogies: “made sinners . . . made righteous” (5:19) and “free gift of grace / justification / righteousness.”

All of the following things are asserted in this passage (as a result of Christ’s atoning death and our acceptance of it on our behalf):

1) We’re justified by faith (5:1).

2) We’re justified by His blood (5:9, 16).

3) We’re saved (5:9-10).

4) We’re reconciled to God (5:10-11).

5) We have peace with God (5:1).

6) We stand in an abundance of grace (5:2, 15, 17, 20-21).

7) We have the hope of sharing of the glory of God (5:2).

8) We have hope in general (5:4-5).

9) We have God’s love in our hearts (5:5).

10) We have God in us (the Indwelling) (5:5).

11) We are righteous — equated with justification (5:17, 19, 21).

12) We have acquittal from sin and death (5:18).

13) Eternal life (5:18, 21).

It would seem to follow then, that all of the following are synonymous in essence or at least in large part:

Justification = Salvation by Grace = Reconciliation = Peace With God = God’s Love in Our Hearts = God in Us (Indwelling) = Acquittal = Eternal Life = Righteousness.

Romans 5:21 offers a third related analogy that is akin to the “free grace” analogies of 5:15-17 and “made” analogy of 5:19:

1) Sin used to reign.

2) Now grace reigns through righteousness.

In other words, the same grace that saves and justifies is intrinsically connected with righteousness. It reigns or operates through the righteousness. Therefore, it cannot possibly be formally separated from it. The two things are essentially synonymous.

Grace and righteousness had already been closely connected in 5:17 (“the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness”). St. Paul makes another statement of salvation along these lines, connecting Christ’s work, the necessity of our perseverance and chance of falling away, faith, justification, hope, the Holy Spirit, righteousness, and works:

Galatians 5:4-6 You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace. [5] For through the Spirit, by faith, we wait for the hope of righteousness. [6] For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision is of any avail, but faith working through love.

Getting back to Cardinal Newman’s argument that inspired this chapter, I shall now examine the use of “gift” itself. Paul elsewhere uses it as a synonym of justification:

Romans 3:24 they are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus,

Romans 6:22-23 But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the return you get is sanctification and its end, eternal life. [23] For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Protestant theology (for the most part) states that sanctification has nothing to do with salvation. Yet here, eternal life is said to be the “end” of sanctification. That can’t be under Protestant premises. But it makes perfect sense under Catholic premises, whereby sanctification and justification are intertwined or synonymous. Thus, Paul wouldn’t feel any particular need to clarify one against the other. A use of either implies both. That is the case here. Being set free from sin is justification and/or regeneration.

Paul then proceeds to say that we “get” sanctification as a “return.” Therefore, it ineluctably takes place, and in turn leads to eternal life. But in the Protestant view it is optional with regard to salvation. Luther and Calvin urged actual sanctity and adherence to a code of righteousness and morality, but it is formally separated as any means of salvation.

The only problem is that this passage, and many others above and elsewhere do not fit into such a schema. Salvation and justification are free gifts, according to Paul in Romans 6:22-23, and sanctification is in the equation, right along with them. It’s not separated; it is part and parcel.

2 Corinthians 9:14b-15 . . . the surpassing grace of God in you. [15] Thanks be to God for his inexpressible gift!

Justification is, I submit, implied here.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God

Cardinal Newman argued that the word gift in the New Testament (charisma — Strong’s word #5486) always meant a real, internal thing that affected human lives (thus it is also when used for justification and salvation). He wrote in the section mentioned at the top (section 5):

For instance, in Rom. v. 17 we read, “They that receive the abundance of grace, and of the gift of righteousness, shall reign in life by One, Jesus Christ.” The word gift here used certainly must mean a thing given; implying that the righteousness of justification, whatever it turn out to be, is a real and definite something in a person, implanted in him, like a talent or power, and not merely an act of the Divine Mind externally to him, as the forgiveness of sins may be.

But the preceding verses contain a still more convincing statement, on which indeed one might not be unwilling to rest the whole question. St. Paul says, “Not as the offence, so also is the gift … the gift is of many offences unto justification.” Here, observe, he distinctly declares that justification is the result of a gift. Now the word used for “gift” in the original, is the very word used elsewhere for extraordinary gifts, such as of healing, of tongues, and of miracles; that is, a definite power or virtue committed to us. Nowhere else does the word occur in Scripture without this meaning; indeed, it necessarily has it from its grammatical form. For instance, St. Paul says, he “longs to see” the Romans, “that he may impart unto them some spiritual gift;” again, that “the gift of God is eternal life.” He enumerates as gifts, prophecy, ministry, teaching, exhortation, giving, ruling, and showing mercy. Speaking of continence, he says, “Every man has his proper gift from God.” He says, there are “diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.” He exhorts Timothy “not to neglect the gift that was in him,” but to stir up, to re-kindle, “the gift of God which was in him.” St. Peter too speaks of our “ministering” our “gifts as good stewards.” [Rom. i. 11; vi. 23; xii. 6-18. 1 Cor. vii. 7; xii. 4. 1 Tim. iv. 14. 2 Tim. i. 6. 1 Pet. iv. 10.]

If, then, by a gift is meant a certain faculty or talent, moral, intellectual, or other, justification is some such faculty. It is not a mere change of purpose or disposition in God towards us, or a liberty, privilege, or (as it may be called) citizenship, accorded to us, but a something lodged within us.

This being the case (apart from the analogical exegesis already provided above), if justification is a gift, it is infused, not simply declared in an extrinsic, external, legal fashion.

St. Paul also directly relates the indwelling Holy Spirit to justification and salvation (Newman’s additional argument, alluded to above). Protestants in this instance agree with Catholics that the indwelling is actual and experiential, not merely declared as an abstraction:

1 Corinthians 6:11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

Titus 3:5
he saved us, not because of deeds done by us in righteousness, but in virtue of his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit,

Arguably, he had something similar in mind also, in these additional passages:

Romans 15:13 May the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, so that by the power of the Holy Spirit you may abound in hope.

1 Corinthians 3:16 Do you not know that you are God’s temple and that God’s Spirit dwells in you?

1 Corinthians 6:19 Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, which you have from God? You are not your own;

1 Corinthians 12:13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body — Jews or Greeks, slaves or free — and all were made to drink of one Spirit.

2 Corinthians 1:22 he has put his seal upon us and given us his Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.

2 Corinthians 3:6 who has made us competent to be ministers of a new covenant, not in a written code but in the Spirit; for the written code kills, but the Spirit gives life.

2 Corinthians 5:5 He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.

Galatians 3:14 that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Galatians 6:8 For he who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption; but he who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.

Ephesians 1:13 In him you also, who have heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and have believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,

Ephesians 4:30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, in whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

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Photo credit: Blessed John Henry Cardinal  Newman [public domain]

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October 21, 2017

Jerome2

This is one of my many critiques of the book entitled, Roman but Not Catholic: What Remains at Stake 500 Years after the Reformation, by evangelical Protestant theologian Kenneth J. Collins and Anglican philosopher Jerry L. Walls (Grand Rapids, Michigan: Baker Academic, 2017).

*****

Kenneth Collins, in his chapter 3: “Scripture: No Greater Authority?” states:

Though Jerome had incorporated the Apocrypha into his translation [The Latin Vulgate], nevertheless he specifically cautioned against receiving this literature as sacred Scripture.

Collins cites him to the effect that he denied the canonicity of “Judith, Tobit, and the books of Maccabees.” Well, yes and no. Catholics agree that St. Jerome was the major exception as regards the deuterocanon (called “Apocrypha” by Protestants), among the Church fathers. But there are several anomalies in his treatment of the topic, and the matter of St. Jerome and the canon of the Old Testament is not quite as clear-cut as many assume it to be.

My good friend and fellow Michigander apologist Gary Michuta, in his excellent book, Why Catholic Bibles are Bigger (Port Huron, Michigan: Grotto Press, 2007), observed about St. Jerome (pp. 149-150; my own footnote numbering):

He . . . flatly denies that Tobit is part of the canon, [1] although elsewhere he cites it without qualification! [2] . . . Jerome adopts the popular convention in his Letter to Oceanus by quoting Baruch as a voice made by “the trumpets of the prophets.” [3] Sirach is both rejected and quoted as Scripture, [4] although it is formally quoted [5] and occasionally used without qualification. [6] Wisdom is also occasionally formally quoted. [7] Jerome even attributes the passages from Wisdom to the Holy Spirit. [8] Maccabees is used without distinction. [9] Jerome at times alludes to the Deuterocanonical sections of Daniel in his letters. [10] Deuterocanonical passages from Esther are likewise quoted. [11] . . . he lists Judith as one of the virtuous women of sacred Scripture . . . [12].

[1] Prologue to John.
[2] Commentary in Eccles. 8.
[3] Letter 77:4.
[4] Commentary on Isaiah, Book 2, 3:12; Letters 77:6: 108:22; 118:1; 148:2,16,18.
[5] Commentary on Jeremiah, Book 4, 21:14; Commentary on Ezekiel, Book 6, 18:6; and Letter 64:5.
[6] Commentary on Isaiah, Book 8, 24:4; Commentary on Ezekiel, Book 6, 18:6; Letter 57.1 To Pammachius; and Letter 125.19, To Rusticus.
[7] Commentary on Isaiah, Book 1, 1:24; Commentary on Zechariah, Book 3, 14:9; and Commentary on Malachi, 3:7 ff.
[8] Commentary on Galatians, Book 1, 3:2 . . . and Breviarium in Psalmos, Ps 9.
[9] Against Pelagians, Book 2:30; Letter 7, To Chromatius, Jovinus and Eusebius.
[10] Letter 3, 1 To Rufinus the Monk; Letter 22,9-10, To Eustochium; Letter 1, 9 to Innocent.
[11] Letter 48, To Pammachius, 14.
[12] Letter 65,1.

Collins also opines that St. Jerome’s view of the deuterocanon was shared by one of the giants among the Church fathers: St. Athanasius (296-373). Gary Michuta again illustrates the complexities and anomalies in his case (pp. 110-112; footnote numbering my own):

Athanasius quotes both Baruch and Susanna right along passages from Isaiah, Psalms, Romans, and Hebrews; he makes no distinction or qualification between them [1]. Wisdom also is used as an authentic portion of sacred Scripture . . .:

But of these and such like inventions of idolatrous madness, Scripture taught us beforehand long ago, when it said, ‘The devising of idols, as the beginning of fornication, and the invention of them, the corruption of life . . .’ [Ws 14:12] [2]

And later in the same work:

For since they were endeavouring to invest with what Scripture calls the incommunicable name . . . [3]

This reference to the “incommunicable name” comes from Wisdom 14:21 . . .

Athanasius quotes another passage from Wisdom as constituting the teachings of Christ, the Word of God. He undoubtedly uses it to confirm doctrine. [4] In another argument against Arians, he calls both the Protocanonical Proverbs and the Deuterocanonical Wisdom “holy Scripture” . . . [5] . . .Athanasius also quotes the book of Sirach without distinction or qualification, in the midst of several other scriptural quotations. [6] . . . Athanasius calls the Book of Judith Scripture. [7] Tobit is cited right along with several Protocanonical quotations [8] , and even introduced with the solemn formula “it is written.” [9]

[1] Four Discourses Against the Arians, Discourse 1.12.
[2] Against the Heathen, 11.1. Emphasis added.
[3] Against the Heathen, 1, 17.3.
[4] On the Incarnate Word, 4.6; 5.2.
[5] Defense Against Arius, 1, 3.
[6] Life of Anthony, 28 and Apology Against the Arians, 66.
[7] Four Discourses Against the Arians, Discourse 2.35 . . .
[8] Defense of Constantius, 17. Tobit is cited after Matthew and Isaiah.
[9] Defense Against Arius, Part 1, 11.

The great Protestant Bible scholar F. F. Bruce confirms Michuta’s analysis:

As Athanasius includes Baruch and the ‘Letter of Jeremiah’ in one book with Jeremiah and Lamentations [in his list of the OT canon], so he probably includes the Greek additions to Daniel in the canonical book of that name, and the additions to Esther in the book of that name which he recommends for reading in church [but doesn’t list as a canonical book] . . .

In practice Athanasius appears to have paid little attention to the formal distinction between those books which he listed in the canon and those which were suitable for instruction of new Christians. He was familiar with the text of all, and quoted from them freely, often with the same introductory formula — ‘as it is written’, ‘as the scripture says’, etc. (The Canon of Scripture, Downers Grove, Illinois: InterVarsity Press, 1988, 79-80; my bracketed comments, based on the larger context of Bruce’s analysis)

Collins mentions other Church fathers who “shared” Jerome’s “judgment regarding the Apocrypha.” He simply lists their names. I will actually document what they believed. Catholic apologist “Matt1618” produced a magnificent treatise, “Did Some Church Fathers Reject the Deuterocanonicals as Scripture?” I will be drawing heavily from it in the rest of this article. He states about Origen (182-254):

[H]e does put Baruch and the two Maccabees books in the canon. . . . he speaks approvingly of the Septuagint, which contains all the Deuterocanonical books. . . . Origen defends the use of the passage in Daniel 3 that Catholics have, the Song of the 3 children, Susanna, and Bel and the Dragon, as found in Daniel 13 and 14 of the Catholic Bible. He says that Bel and the Dragon and Susanna, Daniel 13 and 14 and only found in the Catholic Bible, is found in every single Church of Christ. Origen himself acknowledges that all Churches use these books. And in which way? He notes that he refers to them as Scripture. His opponent said it was a forgery. He corrects his opponent. It is not a forgery, but he notes his own use of them as Scripture. [To Africanus, 5] 

Origen protests the fact that  that these portions of Daniel now found only in Catholic Bibles, were “removed fro the Scriptures.” [To Africanus, 9]  Here are more relevant passages from Origen:

But he ought to know that those who wish to live according to the teaching of Sacred Scripture understand the saying, ‘The knowledge of the unwise is as talk without sense,’ [Sirach 21:18] and have learnt “to be ready always to give an answer to everyone that asketh us a reason for the hope that is in us.” [1 Pt 3:15]  [Against Celsus, 7:12]

[A]s is written in the book of Tobit: ‘It is good to keep close the secret of a king, but honourable to reveal the works of God,’ [Tobit 12:7]–in a way consistent with truth and God’s glory, and so as to be to the advantage of the multitude.” [Against Celsus, 5:19]

“Matt1618” comments: “He uses the phrase, ‘As is written’, in reference to Tobit. The phrase ‘It is written’ always is a reference to Scripture, both in Scripture itself as well as its use by the Fathers. Thus, Origen sees Tobit as Scripture.”

Tobias [Tobit] (as also Judith), we ought to notice, the Jews do not use. They are not even found in the Hebrew Apocrypha, as I learned from the Jews themselves.” However, since the Churches use Tobias, you must know that even in the captivity some of the captives were rich and well to do. Tobias himself says, “Because I remembered God with all my heart; and the Most High gave me grace and beauty in the eyes of Nemessarus, and I was his purveyor; and I went into Media, and left in trust with Gabael, the brother of Gabrias, at Ragi, a city of Media, ten talents of silver” (Tobias, 1:12-14). [To Africanus, 13]

But that we may believe on the authority of holy Scripture that such is the case, hear how in the book of Maccabees, where the mother of seven martyrs exhorts her son to endure torture, this truth is confirmed; for she says, ‘ ask of thee, my son, to look at the heaven and the earth, and at all things which are in them, and beholding these, to know that God made all these things when they did not exist.’ [2 Maccabees 7:28]” [Fundamental Principles, 2:2] 

And that which is written about wisdom, you may apply also to faith, and to the virtues specifically, so as to make a precept of this kind, “If any one be perfect in wisdom among the sons of men, and the power that comes from Thee be wanting, he will be reckoned as nothing ” or “If any one be perfect in self-control, so far as is possible for the sons of men, and the control that is from Thee be wanting, he will be reckoned as nothing; (Wisdom 9:6) [Commentary on Matthew, 4]

“Matt1618” summarizes: “Thus, the Protestant apologists who argue that Origen spoke against the Books and did not view the Deuterocanonical books as Scripture, are wrong. Though it is true that some of these books (only some of these books, as some are canonical) are not termed ‘canonical’, that is irrelevant. The question is whether he saw these books as Scripture. Origien clearly terms these books as Scripture, according to Origen himself. He also uses these books to teach doctrine.”

Collins claims that St. Hilary of Poitiers (300-368) also rejected the Deuterocanon. He is again wrong (it’s easy to merely claim something; much harder to prove it). “Matt1618” observes: “[I]n St. Hilary’s list of the Old Testament, he includes . . . the books of Tobit and Judith. True, he does not give a list of all the Deuterocanonical books, but he gives us an indication that his list of Old Testament books is not limited to the Hebrew Scriptures.”

As you have listened already to Moses and Isaiah, so listen now to Jeremiah inculcating the same truth as they:–‘This is our God, and there shall be none other likened unto Him, Who hath found out all the way of knowledge, and hath given it unto Jacob His servant and to Israel His beloved. Afterward did He shew Himself upon earth and dwelt among men.’ [Baruch 3:36-38] [On the Trinity, 4:42]

“Matt1618” comments: “He already describes that his listeners have already heard Moses and Isaiah. In the same way that Moses and Isaiah speak, so does Jeremiah. What book is St. Hilary referring to? Jeremiah speaks through Baruch in the same manner as he speaks through the book “Jeremiah”, but also Moses and the prophet Isaiah. Baruch is of Scriptural status, according to St. Hilary.”

Such suggestions are inconsistent with the clear sense of Scripture For all things, as the Prophet says [ref 2 Maccabees 7:28], were made out of nothing; it was no transformation of existing things, but the creation into a perfect form of the non-existent.” [On the Trinity, 4:16] 

“Matt1618”: “What is the clear sense of Scripture? What Maccabees says is clear Scripture and is the word of a Prophet, according to St. Hilary. It proves that God made everything out of nothing. This very important doctrine, according to St. Hilary, is proved through the Prophet who writes Maccabees, which he identifies as Scripture. Thus not only does St. Hilary affirm Prophet Status for a Deuterocanonical book, but Scriptural status.’

Then, while the devout soul was baffled and astray through its own feebleness, it caught from the prophet’s voice this scale of comparison for God, admirably expressed, ‘By the greatness of His works and the beauty of the things that He hath made the Creator of worlds is rightly discerned’ [Wisdom 13:5].” [On the Trinity, 1:7]

“Matt1618”: “The book of Wisdom, another Deuterocanonical book, is said to be written by a prophet, according to St. Hilary. The Prophet who writes in Wisdom proves the greatness of God. Again, Wisdom is clearly Scripture.”

Collins claims also that St. John Damascene (645-749) rejected the Deuterocanon, and is incorrect in his historical facts yet again:

And hence it is that in the Old Testament the use of images was not common. But after God (Jn 1:14, Tit. 3:4) in His bowels of pity became in truth man for our salvation, not as He was seen by Abraham in the semblance of a man, nor as He was seen by the prophets, but in being truly man, and “after He lived upon the earth and dwelt among men, (Bar. 3:37) worked miracles, suffered, was crucified, rose again and was taken back to Heaven, since all these things actually took place and were seen by men, they were written for the remembrance and instruction of us who were not alive at that time in order that though we saw not, we may still, hearing and believing, obtain the blessing of the Lord. [An Exposition of the Orthodox Faith, Book IV, Chapter XVI; he cites Baruch as Scripture again in ch. XVII]

“Matt1618” comments: “[H]e refers to Biblical events and in speaking of Jesus, he refers to Baruch in [his] description of Jesus. Baruch obviously prophesies about how Jesus would come to dwell among men. The background is St. John proving that the use of images are okay. The basis for it becoming okay is when Jesus became man. He writes that the Old Testament did not use images much, but per a prophecy of Baruch 3 fulfilled in Jesus, the situation would change.

The divine Scripture likewise saith that ‘the souls of the just are in God’s hand’ [Wisdom 3:1] and death cannot lay hold of them.” [Orthodox Faith, 4:15]

It appears then that the most proper of all the names given to God is “He that is,” as He Himself said in answer to Moses on the mountain, Say to the sons of Israel, He that is hath sent Me (Ex. 3:14). For He keeps all being in His own embrace, like a sea of essence infinite and unseen. Or as the holy Dionysius says, “He that is good.” For one cannot say of God that He has being in the first place and goodness in the second.The second name of God is o qeos, derived from qeein, to run, because He courses through all things, or from aiqein, to burn: For God is a fire consuming all evils (Deut. 4:24): or from qeasqai, because He is all-seeing (2 Macc. 9:5): for nothing can escape Him, and over all He keepeth watch. For He saw all things before they were, holding them timelessly in His thoughts; and each one conformably to His voluntary anti timeless thought, which constitutes predetermination and image and pattern, comes into existence at the predetermined time. [Orthodox Faith, 1:9]

“Matt1618”: “Here St. John Damascene is speaking of God’s immensity. He is out to prove that God is omniscient. He refers here to God as all-seeing. (This specific term is not used of God in any non-Deuterocanonical book.) The Protestant editor Philip Schaff acknowledges that it is a reference to 2nd Maccabees 9:5.”

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Photo credit: St. Jerome, by Leonello Spada (1576-1622) [public domain / Wikimedia CommonsThe first eyeglasses were invented in Italy, c. 1286 [!]

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