2022-03-28T17:00:40-04:00

Jesus “Scarcely” Talks About Himself in the Synoptics? No Parables At All in John?

Bart Ehrman is one of the most well-known and influential critics of traditional Christianity and the inspired Bible (“anti-theists”) writing today. Formerly, in his own words, he was “a fundamentalist for maybe 6 years; a conservative evangelical but not extreme right wing for maybe 5 years more; and a fairly mainstream liberal Christian for about 25.” The primary reason he gives for having lost his faith is the problem of evil (a very serious topic I have dealt with many times). He stated on 3-18-22 in a comment on his blog: “I could no longer explain how there could be a God active in this world given all the pain and misery in it.” I don’t question his sincerity, good intentions, intellectual honesty, or his past status as a Christian; only various opinions which Christians must (in consistency) regard as erroneous.

Dr. Ehrman “received his PhD and MDiv from Princeton Theological Seminary, where he studied textual criticism of the Bible, development of the New Testament canon and New Testament apocrypha under Bruce Metzger.” He has written 30 books, which have sold over two million copies and have been translated into 27 languages.

Ehrman explains that the purpose of his blog is “to disseminate scholarly knowledge of the New Testament and the earliest periods of the Christian church to a non-scholarly audience, . . . Every post is rooted in scholarship – not just my own but that of thousands of scholars who have worked for centuries on understanding the historical Jesus, the New Testament, and the origins of Christianity.” Well, the conclusions of scholars are only as good as the solidity and truthfulness of the premises by which they are operating.

This is one of a series of reply-papers, in which I will address many of his materials from the perspective of archaeology, history, and exegesis.

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I am responding to his article, Is This the Same Teacher? Jesus in John and the Synoptics. (10-4-17). His words will be in blue.

In the Synoptic Gospels, you will have noticed that Jesus scarcely ever speaks about himself. There his message is about the coming kingdom of God and about what people must do to prepare for it. His regular mode of instruction is the parable. 

To the contrary, He massively speaks about himself, by using the method of referring to Himself as the “Son of Man.” Elsewhere (in many posts), Ehrman tries to vainly argue that Jesus thought the Son of Man was someone else. But this won’t fly. His use of the phrase clearly is referring to Himself, as countless clues from immediate context prove. See Him doing this 82 times.

Even Ehrman concedes that this appears to be the case several times, but then he argues from Mark 8:38 (which he believes is actually Jesus’ words: a rare case!), that the passage (“For whoever is ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, of him will the Son of man also be ashamed, when he comes in the glory of his Father with the holy angels” [RSV] ) cannot possibly be understood in and of itself as referring to Him.

This is also untrue. Seven verses earlier He clearly applies the title to Himself: “And he began to teach them that the Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected by the elders and the chief priests and the scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again.” Moreover, there is the parallelism: “ashamed of me [?] . . . [I’ll] the Son of man will be ashamed of you . . .” Verses can’t be read in total isolation.

But there is much more reference to Himself in the Synoptics, which proves that it is false to claim that Jesus “scarcely ever speaks about himself” in these three Gospels:

Matthew 4:19 (RSV) And he said to them, “Follow me, and I will make you fishers of men.” (cf. Mk 1:17)

Matthew 5:17 Think not that I have come to abolish the law and the prophets; I have come not to abolish them but to fulfil them.

Matthew 10:22 and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved.

Matthew 10:32-33 So every one who acknowledges me before men, I also will acknowledge before my Father who is in heaven; [33] but whoever denies me before men, I also will deny before my Father who is in heaven. (cf. Lk 12:8-9)

Matthew 10:34-35 Do not think that I have come to bring peace on earth; I have not come to bring peace, but a sword. [35] For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law;

Matthew 10:37-38 He who loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; and he who loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me; [38] and he who does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me.

Matthew 10:40 He who receives you receives me, and he who receives me receives him who sent me. (cf. Lk 10:16)

Matthew 11:6 And blessed is he who takes no offense at me. (cf. Lk 7:23)

Matthew 11:27-29 All things have been delivered to me by my Father; and no one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and any one to whom the Son chooses to reveal him. [cf. Lk 10:22] [28] Come to me, all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. [29] Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me; for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.

Matthew 12:30 He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me scatters. (cf. Lk 11:23)

Matthew 13:15 For this people’s heart has grown dull, and their ears are heavy of hearing, and their eyes they have closed, lest they should perceive with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and turn for me to heal them. (cf. Mt 13:13-14 and Is 6:9-10) [Jesus is citing an Old Testament passage about God and applying it to Himself]

Matthew 15:32 Then Jesus called his disciples to him and said, “I have compassion on the crowd, because they have been with me now three days, and have nothing to eat; and I am unwilling to send them away hungry, lest they faint on the way.”

Matthew 16:16-17, 20 Simon Peter replied, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” [17] And Jesus answered him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven.”… [20] Then he strictly charged the disciples to tell no one that he was the Christ. (cf. Mk 8:27-30; 9:41; Lk 4:41; 9:18-21; Jn 4:25-26)

Matthew 16:24 Then Jesus told his disciples, “If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. (cf. Lk 9:23)

Matthew 16:25 For whoever would save his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it.

Matthew 18:5-6 Whoever receives one such child in my name receives me; [6] but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a great millstone fastened round his neck and to be drowned in the depth of the sea. (cf. Mk 9:37, 42; Lk 9:48)

Matthew 18:20 For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

Matthew 24:5 For many will come in my name, saying, `I am the Christ,’ and they will lead many astray. (cf. Lk 21:8)

Matthew 24:35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away.

Matthew 26:31 Then Jesus said to them, “You will all fall away because of me this night; for it is written, `I will strike the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock will be scattered.’

Matthew 26:32 But after I am raised up, I will go before you to Galilee. (cf. Mk 14:28)

Matthew 26:53 Do you think that I cannot appeal to my Father, and he will at once send me more than twelve legions of angels?

Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me

Matthew 28:20 . . . I am with you always, to the close of the age.

Mark 9:39 But Jesus said, “Do not forbid him; for no one who does a mighty work in my name will be able soon after to speak evil of me.

Mark 10:29-30 Jesus said, “Truly, I say to you, there is no one who has left house or brothers or sisters or mother or father or children or lands, for my sake and for the gospel, [30] who will not receive a hundredfold now in this time, houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and lands, with persecutions, and in the age to come eternal life. (cf. Mt 19:29; Lk 18:30)

Mark 10:38 But Jesus said to them, “You do not know what you are asking. Are you able to drink the cup that I drink, or to be baptized with the baptism with which I am baptized?

Mark 14:7 For you always have the poor with you, and whenever you will, you can do good to them; but you will not always have me.

Mark 14:61-62 . . . Again the high priest asked him, “Are you the Christ, the Son of the Blessed?” [62] And Jesus said, “I am; and you will see the Son of man seated at the right hand of Power, and coming with the clouds of heaven.” (cf. Lk 22:70)

Luke 2:49 And he said to them, “How is it that you sought me? Did you not know that I must be in my Father’s house?”

Luke 5:32 I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Luke 6:46 “Why do you call me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not do what I tell you?

Luke 9:18 Now it happened that as he was praying alone the disciples were with him; and he asked them, “Who do the people say that I am?”

Luke 9:26 For whoever is ashamed of me and of my words, of him will the Son of man be ashamed when he comes in his glory and the glory of the Father and of the holy angels.

Luke 12:49-50 I came to cast fire upon the earth; and would that it were already kindled! [50] I have a baptism to be baptized with; and how I am constrained until it is accomplished!

Luke 13:35 Behold, your house is forsaken. And I tell you, you will not see me until you say, `Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord!'”

Luke 14:27 Whoever does not bear his own cross and come after me, cannot be my disciple.

Luke 22:15 And he said to them, “I have earnestly desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer;

Luke 22:19 And he took bread, and when he had given thanks he broke it and gave it to them, saying, “This is my body which is given for you. Do this in remembrance of me.”

Luke 22:32 I have prayed for you that your faith may not fail; and when you have turned again, strengthen your brethren.

Luke 22:37 For I tell you that this scripture must be fulfilled in me, `And he was reckoned with transgressors’; for what is written about me has its fulfilment.”

Luke 24:25-27 And he said to them, “O foolish men, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken! [26] Was it not necessary that the Christ should suffer these things and enter into his glory?” [27] And beginning with Moses and all the prophets, he interpreted to them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

Luke 24:44 Then he said to them, “These are my words which I spoke to you, while I was still with you, that everything written about me in the law of Moses and the prophets and the psalms must be fulfilled.”

Jesus teaches in His own authority (“I say to you”) in the Sermon on the Mount (Mt 5:18-34, etc.), and many other passages. The prophets, in contrast, spoke as God’s messengers in the second person (“The Lord says…”). He often talks in a way in which only God could speak, and distinguishes Himself from the prophets (Mt 13:17). Perhaps the most striking example of this occurs in Matthew 23:

Matthew 23:34, 37 Therefore I send you prophets and wise men and scribes… [37] O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, killing the prophets and stoning those who are sent to you! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you would not! (cf. Jud 6:8; 2 Ki 17:13; 2 Chr 24:19; Jer 7:25; 25:4; 26:5; 29:19; 35:15; 44:4; Hag 1:12; Zech 7:12)

Luke 13:34 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, killing the prophets and stoning those who are sent to you! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you would not! (cf. Mt 23:37; Dt 32:11-12; Ruth 2:12; Ps 36:7; 57:1; 63:7; 91:4)

That’s an awful lot of material to be described as something Jesus “scarcely ever” did, ain’t it? I guess Christians and Ehrman live in alternate universes. We don’t even see the same things. Where we see green, he sees red. Go figure . . .

In John, however, Jesus does not speak in parables (which he never uses)

He rarely does, but “never” (one of Ehrman’s unfortunately frequent “universal negatives”) is woefully inaccurate. In John 10:1-5, Jesus taught about the shepherd and the sheep. Then John 10:6 states (very similar to many instances of His parables): “This figure Jesus used with them, but they did not understand what he was saying to them.” Then He proceeds to explain that He was the “good shepherd” (Jn 10:7-16).

Moreover, in John 16:20-22, Jesus compares a woman about to deliver a child to the agony and joy of the disciples after they would see Jesus risen. This is parabolic technique as well. Jesus uses a parable-like analogy in John 3:8: “The wind blows where it wills, and you hear the sound of it, but you do not know whence it comes or whither it goes; so it is with every one who is born of the Spirit.”

In John 4:32-38 Jesus makes two quick parable-like analogies to food and the harvest (“Do you not say, ‘There are yet four months, then comes the harvest’? I tell you, lift up your eyes, and see how the fields are already white for harvest.”: 4:35). In John 12:24, Jesus compares His death and resurrection to a grain of wheat dying, but then bearing much fruit as a result. His teaching on the vine and the branches is very much like a parable:

John 15:1-8 “I am the true vine, and my Father is the vinedresser. [2] Every branch of mine that bears no fruit, he takes away, and every branch that does bear fruit he prunes, that it may bear more fruit. [3] You are already made clean by the word which I have spoken to you. [4] Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me. [5] I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in me, and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing. [6] If a man does not abide in me, he is cast forth as a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire and burned. [7] If you abide in me, and my words abide in you, ask whatever you will, and it shall be done for you. [8] By this my Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit, and so prove to be my disciples.

In the early part of John 6 (not the latter part, which is literal and eucharistic), Jesus compares Himself as savior and deliverer of “eternal life” to the manna in the wilderness:

John 6:47-51 Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life. [48] I am the bread of life. [49] Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died. [50] This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that a man may eat of it and not die. [51] I am the living bread which came down from heaven; if any one eats of this bread, he will live for ever; and the bread which I shall give for the life of the world is my flesh.”

Once again, this contradicts the description of Jesus “never” supposedly making parable-like utterances in John. It’s the same Jesus, and He teaches generally or broadly in the same way (if not in all minute particulars): using massive analogies or word-pictures.

nor does he proclaim the imminent appearance of the kingdom (which he never mentions).

Again, it appears that Ehrman reads a different Bible than we do:

John 3:3, 5 Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born anew, he cannot see the kingdom of God.” . . . [5] Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

Moreover, Jesus is described as a “king” in John, which is part and parcel of the “kingdom of heaven.” He’s the king. He doesn’t reject the title when someone applies it to Him (1:49), nor during Palm Sunday, when people say this, and the text sees it as fulfillment of Old Testament prophecy (12:13-15). And He explicitly affirms that He is the “king” under questioning from Pilate (18:33-37).

In the Fourth Gospel, Jesus has come down from the Father and is soon to return to him. His message alone can bring eternal life. He himself is equal with God. He existed before he came into the world. . . . He says that he is the one sent from God to bring life to the world, and he does signs to show that what he says is true.

His preexistence is strongly implied in the Synoptics, which also use the terminology of the Son being “sent” by the Father (Mt 10:40; 15:24; 21:37 [same notion in a parable; cf. Mk 12:6]; Mk 9:37; Lk 4:18, 43; 10:16) and the equation of folks receiving Jesus, which also means that they receive God the Father (Mt 10:40; Mk 9:37; Lk 10:16). I have gathered the abundant overall evidence of the deity of Christ in the Synoptic Gospels at least four times:

Deity of Jesus: Called Lord/Kurios & God/Theos [10-24-11]

Seidensticker Folly #55: Godhood of Jesus in the Synoptics [9-12-20]

9 Ways Jesus Tells Us He is God in the Synoptic Gospels [National Catholic Register, 10-28-20]

Ehrman Errors #2: Jesus is God in the Synoptics (With Emphasis on the Term “Son of God” Applied to Jesus in Matthew, Mark, and Luke, and Its Implications) [3-19-22]

He reveals God’s glory. Only those who receive his message can partake of the world that is above, only they are in the light, and only they can enter into the truth.

We see similar passages about disciples being the bearer of “light” in several passages in the Synoptics (Mt 5:14-16; 6:22; Lk 11:33-36; 16:8). As always, the four Gospels are complementary, not contradictory. They are fully consistent with each other. Ehrman mentions Jesus saying “I am the light of the world” (Jn 8:12). But the Synoptics teach the same thing about Him (Mt 4:16; Lk 1:79; 2:32).

Yeah, John has a lot more “stuff” and different and unique things (absolutely): to which the Christian says: “so what? Ho hum. It’s all there in the Bible for our instruction. Different books highlight different things.” Ehrman seems to find this the most inexplicably curious and foreign notion. We see it as common sense and wisdom from God.

He presents other arguments of a similar nature that are able to be shot down as well, but I have put more than enough time and effort into this reply already, and it is sufficient.

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Ehrman replied in the combox:

So when the prophets of the OT were sent from God, or John the Baptist, does that mean they pre-existed? (3-27-22, 3:43 PM)

I counter-replied:

No. I’d appeal to your own words above, which seem different from what you are now saying. You wrote:

In the Fourth Gospel, Jesus has come down from the Father and is soon to return to him. … He existed before he came into the world…. He says that he is the one sent from God to bring life to the world, … How does one belong to the world that is above? By believing in the one who has come from that world, Jesus (3:31). … it is an appeal to believe in the one sent from heaven so as to have eternal life in the here and now.

With these comments you appear to think that when Jesus says He was “sent” in John, He was referring to His preexistence. I agree! My point is that He also does so in the Synoptics (Mt 10:4015:2421:37Mk 12:69:37Lk 4:184310:16).

Did you read my article? Obviously, no dialogue of much substance can occur here, with a two-comment, 400 word-per-day limit. I had barely enough words allowed to me to make this reply, and it’s my second comment of the day. But thanks for the 20-word reply!

No, I didn’t read your article. And yes, in John Jesus clearly states he pre-existed, as does the Prologue. That is precisely what we don’t have in the Synoptics. “Sent” language is common in the prophets of Scripture, with no reference to pre-existence.

I agree that pre-existence is not explicit in Mark, but it is in Matthew and Luke, as I already noted in my article:

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Jesus teaches in His own authority (“I say to you”) in the Sermon on the Mount (Mt 5:18-34, etc.), and many other passages. The prophets, in contrast, spoke as God’s messengers in the second person (“The Lord says…”). He often talks in a way in which only God could speak, and distinguishes Himself from the prophets (Mt 13:17). Perhaps the most striking example of this occurs in Matthew 23:

Matthew 23:34, 37 Therefore I send you prophets and wise men and scribes… [37] O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, killing the prophets and stoning those who are sent to you! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you would not! (cf. Lk 13:34; Jud 6:8; 2 Ki 17:13; 2 Chr 24:19; Jer 7:25; 25:4; 26:5; 29:19; 35:15; 44:4; Hag 1:12; Zech 7:12)

Prophets don’t send other prophets. Only God sends prophets. Since Jesus is speaking in the first person of sending prophets, it’s a claim to be God. This proves His pre-existence in two ways: 1) only God does this, and he says He does it; and 2) John the Baptist was the last prophet, and he was born before Jesus; therefore, if Jesus “sent” him, He was pre-existent.

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Photo credit: Christ and the young rich ruler (1889), by Heinrich Hofmann (1824-1911) [public domain / Wikimedia Commons]

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Summary: Agnostic Bible skeptic Bart Ehrman writes about the topic of “Jesus: Synoptics vs. John?” & argues incorrectly that John is fundamentally different & contradictory.

2022-03-13T00:48:55-04:00

Atheist anti-theist and “philosopher” Jonathan M. S. Pearce runs the blog, A Tippling Philosopher. He has encouraged me to visit his site and offer critiques, and wrote under a post dated 12-14-21“I even need to thank the naysayers. Some of them have put up with a lot of robust pushback and still they come. Bravery or stupidity – it’s a fine line. But they are committed, and there is something to be said for taking that commitment into the lion’s den. Dave, you are welcome at my new place. Come challenge me. . . . thanks for your critiques of my pieces. Sorry I couldn’t get to more of them.” This echoes his words about me in a post dated 7-20-17, where he said, “well done . . . for coming here and suffering the slings and arrows of atheists’ wrath. . . . I commend him for getting involved and defending himself. Goodonya, mate.” 

Under a post dated 1-27-22, he stated: “I do welcome disagreements because I don’t want [my blog] to [be] just an echo chamber. . . . [S]omeone like Armstrong does give me ammunition for some of my pieces!” Likewise, on 3-18-14 he proclaimed: “Dissenting views are utterly vital to being sure that you are warranted in your own beliefs and views.” And on 7-20-17“I put my ideas and theories about the world out there for people to criticise. . . . I want to make damned sure that they are warranted. I can’t stand the idea that I could . . . believe something that is properly unwarranted. . . . What’s the point in self-delusion? . . . I put something out there, people attack it, and if it still stands, it’s pretty robust and I am happy to hold it. If not, I adapt and change my views accordingly.”

I’m delighted to oblige his wish to receive critiques and dissenting views! The rarity of his counter-replies, however, is an oddity and curiosity in light of this desire. He wrote, for example, on 11-22-19“[I can’t be] someone who genuinely is not interested in finding out the truth about philosophy, God and everything. If I come up against any point that is even remotely problematic to my worldview, I feel the absolute necessity to bottom it out. I need to reconcile at least something; I have work to do. I cannot simply leave it as it is. . . . I would simply have to counter the arguments, or change my position.” Whatever; this hasn’t been my experience with him; only in short and infrequent spurts. I continue to offer critiques / defenses of Christianity in any event, because they aren’t just for his sake.

Here’s what he thinks, by the way, of Jesus: “The Jesus as reported in the Gospels is so far removed from the real and historical figure of Jesus, overlaid with myth, story-telling, propaganda and evangelist agenda, that the end result is synonymous with myth. . . . I’d take mythicism over Christianity any day. And they call mythicists fringe as if the position is absurd? Now that’s crazy.” (8-2-14)

Jonathan’s words will be in blue.

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This is a reply to his article, Why Noah’s Flood Is Utter Nonsense (12-20-19).

I have long maintained that this is a ridiculous story at even the most superficial of analyses. 

When one doesn’t properly understand something, indeed it might seem “ridiculous” as a result.

The theology behind the flight is that God was so repulsed by the sinful activity of humans on Earth that he decided to decimate humanity, bar eight, and start again.

Yes; it’s called judgment. That is God’s prerogative as creator, and we mimic it every day with our laws and legal systems. People are punished and go to jail if they violate laws that society deems fit to enact and enforce. Since God gave us our lives and expects us to act in the right way with the intelligence and will that he gave us, He can decide that we have not done so, and judge.

Now, assuming this scenario for the sake of argument, it seems to me that there are two primary choices:

1) the people judged were wicked enough (“the earth was corrupt in God’s sight, and the earth was filled with violence. . . . all flesh had corrupted their way upon the earth”: Gen 6:11-12, RSV) for it to be perfectly just for God to judge them: even with a penalty of death;

or

2) the people judged were not as sinful and rebellious as the biblical texts prior to the Flood make out, so that God’s judgment was unjust.

Most atheists, of course, will casually assume #2, but they have no objective basis on which to doubt the profound sinfulness of the people judged prior to the Flood.

But it was a local Flood, in any event, and so didn’t destroy all of humanity, save eight.

This is a story of gods supposed love, grace and creation,

God is also a judge, just as we have judges on earth to enforce laws. We act no differently than God does. He simply has much more power and knowledge and is transcendent, and as the Creator, He has the prerogative to both take away as well as give life, just as a painter or sculptor can create or destroy works of art as he or she pleases, or as an author does with writing.

after which he realised he should never destroy the world again in this manner.

He didn’t “realize” anything (as if He made a mistake, as Jonathan implies) because an omniscient, immutable God doesn’t change at all. Jonathan assumes this because — like so many — he merely projects human emotions and other creature attributes onto God when they aren’t there at all. God simply stated: “the waters shall never again become a flood to destroy all flesh” (Gen 9:15). “All” in the Bible is often used in a non-literal fashion.

I will now list a few reasons why this story is patent nonsense:

1)  OmniGod did it because we were a sinful world. We still are; therefore, it didn’t work.

The first sentence is true. The second doesn’t follow. God never claimed or thought that the Flood would wipe out sin once and for all, leading to a paradise earth (or, more correctly a paradise Mesopotamian floodplain) as it was before human beings chose to rebel against God. Again, being omniscient, He knew that it wouldn’t before it happened. It wasn’t a “pragmatic” act, but rather, a judgmental one. He simply chose to judge a certain number of human beings at this point and also chose not to do so by water again.

God, being God, can and does do whatever He wants. And what He does is both loving and just. We don’t blame earthly judges for sending people off to jail. We don’t say they are wicked and vindictive and power-hungry or lack love and mercy in doing so. No; we place the blame where it should be: on the lawbreaking criminal.

2)  The account is a reworking of Tablet XI of the Gilgamesh, written some 1000 years before the Bible. Some verses are verbatim, or close to.

There could be, and are, some similarities. If so, it’s no big deal. Christians don’t deny that the Bible and Christianity often borrow from what existed before them. It’s a non-issue. But atheists tout the similarities with the Epic of Gilgamesh. One could just as easily highlight the glaring differences:

The Babylonian ark was 262 feet wide, deep, and long (a giant cube), whereas the biblical ark has similar proportions to actual ocean liners in our time. The biblical Flood lasted over a year, and the waters subsided over seven months’ time. But the Babylonian Flood lasted 14 days. The Epic gives no reason for the Flood; the Bible says it was judgment for man’s sin. The Epic ark has seven levels; the biblical ark, three. The Epic ark is steered; the biblical ark is not. In any event, this is no basis for rejecting the truthfulness of the biblical account.

3) If the deluge destroyed all, why do we have the writings and journals of people before, during and after the deluge?

Because the flood was local, not global, and because people were able to write after it ended.

4) There is internal contradiction from the spliced accounts – 2 of each or 7?

Not t all, as I have written about: Seidensticker Folly #49: Noah & 2 or 7 Pairs of Animals [9-7-20].

5)  8 people looking after the world’s biggest zoo is ridiculous.

Why would it necessarily be? Again, since it was a local Flood, it would only be the animals from that region. As long as they had proper cages and enough food and water, it wouldn’t be impossible to look after them. Wild animals (by definition) are quite capable of taking care of themselves.

6) The ark is physically bigger than a wooden vessel can be made, apparently by 50%.

It may very well have been smaller than a literal reading would suggest, because the numerical system in those days was different than ours. See my articles, for example: 969-Year-Old Methuselah (?) & Genesis Numbers (7-12-21), and Pearce’s Potshots #31: How Many Israelites in the Exodus? [5-27-21].

The Wyoming was the largest wooden schooner ever built. It was 329 feet between perpendiculars. Built in 1909, it sailed until 1924, when it sank. A literal reading of the size of the ark in the Bible (incorporating differences in the length of a cubit) is 525-624 ft x 87.5-104 ft x 52.5-62.4 ft. But since the Sexagesimal numerical system was different in Babylonia in c. 2900 BC, these are likely larger figures than the ark actually was. Geologist Carol A. Hill explained this different system in her article, “Making Sense of the Numbers of Genesis” (Perspectives on Science and Christian Faith, Volume 55, Number 4, December 2003). She stated:

We find the same kind of symmetry and symbolism in other chapters of Genesis in the original Masoretic Hebrew text. Some examples that show the numerical “tightness” and regularity of the text are: in Gen. 2, Adam is mentioned 28 (7 x 4) times; in Gen. 4:15, . . .; the names listed in Cain’s family, counting from Adam to Naamah are 14 (7 x 2); and Cain’s name is mentioned 14 (7 x 2) times. In the story of Noah and the Flood in chapters 6–9, there is also a numerical symmetry and parallelism to the text. The number seven is used repeatedly; seven days (Gen. 7:4, 10; 8:10, 12), seven pairs of clean animals and birds (Gen. 7:2–3); the number of times that God spoke to Noah was exactly seven. Repetitions (such as the “waters prevailed and increased”; Gen. 7:17, 18, 19, 20, 24) are included for the sake of parallelism in accordance with the customary stylistic convention of the time. Noah’s age of 600 (60 x 10) was considered to be a perfect number in the sexagesimal system, and was symbolic of Noah’s perfection as a person (Gen. 6:9). The size of the ark was 300 (60 x 5) cubits by 50 (10 x 5) cubits by 30 (6 x 5) cubits—numbers that also probably should be taken symbolically (numerologically) rather than literally.

7) Clearly the gathering of all the animals is impossible – micro-organisms, polar bears, penguins, condors, glow-worms (how did they get there?).

It’s not likely that God was requiring such minute accuracy; rather, just a gathering of all the animals they could find in their local region; “all” again not being literally understood at the time (whereas Jonathan operates under a stunted, uninformed “the Bible must always be interpreted literally methodology and mentality). Since it was not a global Flood, many animals would survive in the different locations other than the Flood (which was most of the earth). With this understanding, rounding up polar bears and penguins would be unnecessary, apart from the fact that they were thousands of miles away.

8) Ark’s reported dimensions would have to be considerably larger to fit the animals.

See my reply to #7.

9)  Population of 8 could not rebound in the fashion claimed. Simply not possible.

What is the claim? Since the Flood was local, it wouldn’t take long to repopulate the local region. If Jonathan has in mind the whole world, that’s irrelevant to the perspective of a local Flood.

10)  Rainfall would have to be 6 inches per minute. Again, not possible. A category 5 hurricane gives 6 inches per hour which is impossible to sustain over 40 days.

He is making many debatable assumptions, including a global Flood. There was more than enough “natural water” to create the conditions of a local Mesopotamian Flood. See Alan E. Hill’s article, “Quantitative Hydrology of Noah’s Flood” (Perspectives on Science and Christian Faith, Volume 58, Number 2, June 2006). Dr. Hill is the Distinguished Scientist of the Quantum Physics Institute at Texas A&M University. He has spent some forty years inventing and developing evermore-powerful lasers of the Star Wars variety. In the early 1960s, while at the University of Michigan, Alan was the first person to discover nonlinear optics.

11)  The weight of the water would have disastrous consequences on the earth’s crust, emitting noxious gases and eruptions, leading to potentially, a boiling sea! In all probability, it would have imploded in some way.

This is again assuming a global Flood: a position that has not been held by mainstream Christianity for at least 110 years. See the Catholic Encyclopedia article, “Deluge”, from 1908, and the International Standard Bible Encyclopedia from 1915 (“Deluge of Noah”).

12)  There is no geological evidence for any of this.

Not for a global Flood, because it never happened.

13)  There are reefs that have been undisturbed in the world for 100,000 years. These would have been crushed and destroyed. They were not.

Irrelevant in the local Flood model . . .

14) Lots more evidence of fossil, radiometrics and isotopes etc. mean that the flood clearly never happened.

Irrelevant in the local Flood model . . .

15)  How the hell did Noah actually get all the animals on the ark without them trying to eat each other / the family etc?

I imagine in the same or similar way that zookeepers since time immemorial have managed to gather up disparate animals. Zoos go back to at least 3500 BC (600 years before my proposed date of the Flood). One in Egypt at that time “included hippopotami, hartebeest, elephants, baboons and wildcats.”

16)  Asexual animals and hermaphrodites not accounted for.

See my reply to #7.

17)  Ventilation/food/faeces problems on the ark.

Lots of windows. Lots of stored food. Lots of shoveling poop out of the windows. I don’t see that this would make it absolutely impossible.

18)  Carnivores?

Yeah, I wrote about that: Do Carnivores on the Ark Disprove Christianity? [9-10-15].

19)  DNA pool? no trace of this through DNA analysis (ie we know we came from Africa).

A local Mesopotamian Flood would have nothing to do with Africa and whatever happened there in this regard.

20)  All sea fish would have died from the influx of fresh water.

Locally, yes. Globally, no; so it’s a non-issue.

21) All plants that do not rely on the seeds of Noah to survive would die. There are many plants that reproduce in many ways other than seeds.

They would save whatever they could in the local area. It’s not a matter of rescuing absolutely every plant in the entire world.

22)  Explaining it away as a local flood is contradictory to Genesis,

So he claims. But he is not prepared to enter into the reasoning by which it’s completely compatible with Genesis.

and would also not kill all the humans who were so evil.

“All” here is not literal.

Liquids find their own level, and so a local flood of that magnitude and description is physically impossible.

Not at all, as the Dr. Hill article I cited above illustrates. See also my article, Pearce’s Potshots #47: Mockery of a Local Flood (+ Striking Analogies Between the Biblical Flood and the Great Mississippi Flood of 1927) [9-30-21].

23) This is like using napalm to clear some weeds in your back garden. Is this the best way God could think of for exercising some sin in the world? Could there not be a more precise mess method of locating and ridding the world of these individual sinners? Innocent children, unborn foetuses, all animals, old ladies, pregnant mothers – these were all wiped out in the most slapdash of manners.

That’s his merely subjective and arbitrary opinion of what God did. See my general comments at the top about God’s judgment. Fancy Jonathan suddenly being compassionate about “unborn foetuses” while he is a passionate supporter of childkilling in abortion. God can give or take away lives, being the Creator. Human beings do not have that prerogative.

24) There are literally not enough water molecules on Earth to account for the flood waters.

See my reply to #11.

25) Theologically speaking, it is nonsensical. if OmniGod had full divine foreknowledge and creative power and responsibility, then creating people in the full knowledge of what they would do, and punishing them for features and behaviour you had designed into them, is totally incoherent. God is actually morally culpable for that which he is punishing them for.

Not at all. They had a free will to obey moral strictures and God or to rebel against both. If they rebelled, God was perfectly just in judging them for doing so. Jonathan, of course, thinks everything is deterministic and that free will doesn’t exist, so of course in that ridiculous hypothetical state of affairs, then even God would only be doing what He “must” do, so how could He be blamed?

And so on.

Yes; all fallacies or non sequiturs, as I have shown, and I’m sure any others that Jonathan came up with would be the same. It’s a massive straw man pseudo-“argument” that counts on his readers own ignorance of the many factors I outlined.

Seriously, who believes this nonsense?

Well, only the relatively tiny umber of biblical fundamentalists believe in a global Flood, not the vast majority of Christians, and virtually all theologically educated, “thinking” Christians. So why waste any time on it at all? Jonathan keeps misrepresenting what the Bible actually teaches.

It is not only historically and scientifically indefensible,

That’s right: a global Flood is those things.

but it is also theologically naive 

What’s naive is, rather, Jonathan’s ignorance of the Bible and general history of Christian thought and relation to science. Until he figures this out, he’ll keep caricaturing and exposing his own intellectual deficiencies.

and horribly retributive in the most barbaric way.

See my comments on judgment at the top.

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Photo credit: DevizK (11-6-20): ocean water at New York City [Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike 4.0 International license / Wikimedia Commons]

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Summary: Atheist Jonathan MS Pearce comes up with 25 criticisms of the biblical Flood: either the actual one or (mostly) his falsely imagined global flood. I systematically reply.

2022-03-07T17:16:14-04:00

Atheist anti-theist and “philosopher” Jonathan M. S. Pearce runs the blog, A Tippling Philosopher. He has encouraged me to visit his site and offer critiques, and wrote under a post dated 12-14-21: “I even need to thank the naysayers. Some of them have put up with a lot of robust pushback and still they come. Bravery or stupidity – it’s a fine line. But they are committed, and there is something to be said for taking that commitment into the lion’s den. Dave, you are welcome at my new place. Come challenge me. . . . thanks for your critiques of my pieces. Sorry I couldn’t get to more of them.” This echoes his words about me in a post dated 7-20-17, where he said, “well done . . . for coming here and suffering the slings and arrows of atheists’ wrath. . . . I commend him for getting involved and defending himself. Goodonya, mate.” 

Under a post dated 1-27-22, he stated: “I do welcome disagreements because I don’t want [my blog] to [be] just an echo chamber. . . . [S]omeone like Armstrong does give me ammunition for some of my pieces!” Likewise, on 3-18-14 he proclaimed: “Dissenting views are utterly vital to being sure that you are warranted in your own beliefs and views.” And on 7-20-17“I put my ideas and theories about the world out there for people to criticise. . . . I want to make damned sure that they are warranted. I can’t stand the idea that I could . . . believe something that is properly unwarranted. . . . What’s the point in self-delusion? . . . I put something out there, people attack it, and if it still stands, it’s pretty robust and I am happy to hold it. If not, I adapt and change my views accordingly.”

I’m delighted to oblige his wish to receive critiques and dissenting views! The rarity of his counter-replies, however, is an oddity and curiosity in light of this desire. He wrote, for example, on 11-22-19: “[I can’t be] someone who genuinely is not interested in finding out the truth about philosophy, God and everything. If I come up against any point that is even remotely problematic to my worldview, I feel the absolute necessity to bottom it out. I need to reconcile at least something; I have work to do. I cannot simply leave it as it is. . . . I would simply have to counter the arguments, or change my position.” Whatever; this hasn’t been my experience with him; only in short and infrequent spurts. I continue to offer them in any event, because they aren’t just for his sake.

Here’s what he thinks (by the way) of Jesus: “The Jesus as reported in the Gospels is so far removed from the real and historical figure of Jesus, overlaid with myth, story-telling, propaganda and evangelist agenda, that the end result is synonymous with myth. . . . I’d take mythicism over Christianity any day. And they call mythicists fringe as if the position is absurd? Now that’s crazy.” (8-2-14)

Jonathan’s words will be in blue.

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This is part of a series of replies to Jonathan’s book, The Nativity: A Critical Examination (Onus Books, 2012). I am utilizing a text from Barnes & Noble (Nook Book) which has no page numbers, so I can only cite chapter names.

I. Fact or Fiction?

[T]he infancy narratives are (at least mainly) fictional. (Introduction)

This is just to let my readers know what Jonathan thinks of these biblical texts. As we start to closely examine the rationale and arguments he makes, that form his “cumulative case” that he thinks is “water-tight”, we’ll see how flimsy and pitiful it really is. I’ve already strongly critiqued his related arguments several times and never found any significant difficulty in doing so. One can have fifty weak strands of rope or weak links that won’t become any stronger, just because they are collected together.

II. Incidents That Couldn’t Possibly Have Been Recorded?

Pearce marvels at incidents recorded in the Bible “to which there were probably no witnesses (Jesus talking to Herod) available to the Gospel writers. All these speeches seem to have been remarkably well-preserved . . .” (Introduction to the texts)

What an odd choice of example, since “chief priests and the scribes stood by” (Lk 23:10) as did Herod’s “soldiers” (Lk 23:11). All it would take was one or two of these to report about this encounter, which entered into either oral tradition or directly into one of the Gospels. But as it is, Luke records not a single word that Herod said; it only notes that “he questioned him at some length” (Lk 23:9).

Since only Luke reports this incident, there was no secret or “miraculous” knowledge involved. All that is reported is that Herod questioned Jesus. We’re supposed to believe that no follower of Jesus could have possibly known that that happened? It’s ridiculous. It took only one follower to follow the irate persecuting crowds with Jesus from a distance and see them enter into Herod’s palace.

III. “No” Extra-Biblical Corroboration of the Gospels?

[T]he Gospels . . . are not attested by extra-biblical sources. This means that no other source outside of the Bible, and contemporary with the events or with the Gospel accounts, reports and corroborates the events claimed within the Gospels. (Introduction to the texts)

Nonsense! Jonathan also claimed that Christians can produce a few extra-biblical historians, who only proved that Christians “existed.” What?! I recently completed articles in which I demonstrated that there were fifty such corroborations for Luke’s accuracy in the Gospel of Luke and the Book of Acts, and another 17 for the Gospel of John. That’s 67 more than none.

Jonathan gets in trouble here with his mindless “universal negatives”: as so often. I appreciate enthusiasm for a cause (even a well-intentioned bad one), but when it leads to utter misrepresentation and lies because one’s extreme bias is so out of control, it’s no longer worth very much.

IV. Jonathan Unable to Distinguish Between a Newborn and a Toddler

We have [in Matthew] . . . Herod massacring children in the search for this newborn ‘usurper’: (The Gospel of Matthew)

The huge error here is that Jesus wasn’t a newborn when the wise men visited Him. He was most likely between 1-2 years old, but definitely not a newborn. I explained this at some length in my article, Bethlehem Joseph / Census Issues (2-28-22).

So we have the deliciously humorous and ironic circumstance of Jonathan — in the midst of carping on and on about supposedly profound Gospel inaccuracy — not even knowing that this passage is not about the newborn Jesus. It’s quite unimpressive to observe him ignorantly distorting the biblical text wholesale in order to mock and “reject” it (i.e., a straw man of the real thing).

V. Ruth Was a Harlot or Adulterer? And Maybe the Virgin Mary, Too, According to Matthew and Jonathan?

Tamar, Rahab, Ruth and Bathsheba . . . were all known adulterers and harlots. With Mary included as a female in this list [a genealogy], perhaps Matthew is hinting something covertly. (The Virgin Birth)

Tamar (Gen 38:13-24) and Rahab (Josh 2:1) were indeed harlots, and Bathsheba an adulterer (famously with King David). Jonathan got some biblical facts right! Stop the presses! But Ruth? One looks in vain throughout the book bearing her name for any hint of harlotry. She was widowed and got married again. That‘s harlotry (or adultery), according to Jonathan?

Having insulted her with one of the worst accusations that can possibly be hurled at a woman, he then makes the blasphemous charge that the Blessed Virgin Mary herself might be in one of these categories [blasphemy is a category that includes much more than just God], and that Matthew was “perhaps . . . hinting” such an unthinkable thing. This is as ridiculous as it is outrageous. Lying blasphemy is never far from skepticism. This is a prime example of that.

VI. Was “Virgin” Mistranslated from Isaiah 7:14?

Jonathan devotes an entire chapter to this question, claiming that “Matthew misappropriated the passage from Isaiah for his own theological ends.” I already refuted his contentions over three years ago: Reply to Atheist Jonathan MS Pearce: “Mistranslation” of “Virgin”? (Isaiah 7:14) (with Glenn Miller) [7-26-17].

He also claimed in this chapter (“The mistranslation of virgin”) that “dual prophecies have no precedent — there are simply no other examples of such a thing.” Nonsense (and more of his clueless universal negative claims). I refuted that idea, too, over a year ago: Dual Fulfillment of Prophecy & the Virgin Birth (vs. JMS Pearce) [12-18-20].

VII. Do Matthew and Luke’s Genealogies Contradict Each Other?

Next up is Jonathan’s chapter, “The contradictory genealogies“. I dealt with this topic already as well: Reply to Atheist Jonathan MS Pearce: “Contradictory” Genealogies of Christ? [7-27-17].

VIII. Micah 5:2, Bethlehem, and Nazareth

Matthew and Luke . . . mistranslate the prophecy [of Micah 5:2] . . . (To Bethlehem or not to Bethlehem)

Once again I have offered a thorough refutation already: Reply to Atheist Jonathan MS Pearce: Bethlehem & Nazareth “Contradictions” (Including Extensive Exegetical Analysis of Micah 5:2) [7-28-17].

[I]t seems that Jesus was born in Nazareth . . . The Gospel of Mark seems to indicate that Jesus was from Nazareth. . . . Mark 1:9 declares: “Jesus came from Nazareth . . .” (To Bethlehem or not to Bethlehem)

His “argument” is that Mark calls Him “Jesus of Nazareth” and calls Nazareth His “hometown.” So what?! It was His hometown from the age of 1 or 2. It doesn’t follow that He was born there or that Mark’s simply not dealing with His birth means that He denied that Bethlehem was where He was born. This is the well-known “argument from silence” fallacy, and it’s always a flimsy, nonexistent pseudo-“argument” whenever it’s desperately trotted out. I dealt with this nonsense in the above paper:

In all appearances of “Nazareth” in conjunction with Jesus, never once does it say that He was born there. The Bible says that He “dwelt” there (Mt 2:23), that He was “from” there (Mt 21:11; Mk 1:9), that He was “of” Nazareth (Mt 26:71; Mk 1:24; 10:47; 16:6; Lk 4:34, 18:37; 24:19; Jn 1:45; 18:5, 7; 19:19; Acts 2:22; 3:6; 4:10; 6:14; 10:38; 22:8; 26:9), “out of” Nazareth (Jn  1:46), “brought up” there (Lk 4:16), that Jesus called Nazareth “his own country” (Lk 4:23-24), . . . Not one word about being born in Nazareth occurs in any of those 28 references. . . .

Take, for example (by analogy), the singer Bob Dylan. He was born in Duluth, Minnesota, but lived in Hibbing, Minnesota from the age of six (I happened to visit this house on our vacation this year: being a big fan). That‘s where everyone who knows anything about him says and understands that he was raised and where he spent his childhood. Consequently, no one ever says that he is “from” Duluth or “of” Duluth or was “brought up” there. Even many avid Dylan fans don’t even know that he wasn’t born in Hibbing.

All of those things are said about Hibbing: precisely as the Bible habitually refers to Nazareth in relation to Jesus. It’s talking about His hometown, where He was always known to live, prior to His three-year itinerant ministry. In the Bible, people were generally named after the places where they were from. Yet Jonathan seems to expect that the Bible should say that Jesus was “of” or “from” Bethlehem, rather than Nazareth, because He was born there. It doesn’t. It says that He was “of” or “from” Nazareth because that was His hometown. And it says that He was born in Bethlehem; never that He was born in Nazareth. All the biblical data is on my side of this contention. All Jonathan has is silence and empty speculation.

IX. Returning to an “Ancestral” or a Present Tribal Town for a Census?

Luke 2:3-4 (RSV) And all went to be enrolled, each to his own city. [4] And Joseph also went up from Galilee, from the city of Nazareth, to Judea, to the city of David, which is called Bethlehem, because he was of the house and lineage of David,

Luke does provide a reason for Joseph to go —  because Bethlehem is his ancestral town. [typo corrected; he had Luke instead of Joseph] (Why return to an ancestral town for a census?)

What Luke actually writes is that Bethlehem is Joseph’s “own city”; i.e., he lived there (or at least his family did). The last clause above need not be interpreted as “everyone had to go to their ancestral city.” It could simply mean that Joseph went to Bethlehem and lived there because he was descended from David, who also lived there. But “house and lineage of David” could also refer to one’s tribe.

It doesn’t have to be some convoluted calculation going back 41 generations (as Jonathan has fun with: only making himself look ridiculous). First century Jews knew what tribe they were part of. David and Joseph his descendant were of the tribe of Judah, and Bethlehem was in the northern part of that.

Biblical linguist Marvin Vincent, in his Word Studies in the New Testament, concurs: “According to the Jewish mode of registration the people would be enrolled by tribes, families or clans, and households. Compare Joshua 7:16-18.” Even Roman citizens — as Jonathan notes in his next chapter — “were registered by tribe and class.” So Joseph was going to where his tribe (and he himself) lived.

Joseph was taking his betrothed to a home in Bethlehem, where they lived for 1-2 years after Jesus was born (as we know from the visit of the magi). He happened to live in Bethlehem which just happened to be where his illustrious ancestor David was known from Scripture to have been from. This ain’t rocket science.

X. Pearce Embarrassingly Botches the Meaning of the Immaculate Conception  

. . . Mary becoming pregnant via the Holy Spirit . . . she had immaculately conceived . . . (Heavily pregnant? On your donkey!)

As any minimally educated Catholic knows, the Immaculate Conception refers to Mary’s conception and grace received from God, causing her to be free from both actual and original sin. It does not refer to the virgin birth of Jesus. Yet a man this ignorant deigns to sanctimoniously lecture Christians about the supposedly hopelessly contradictory Gospels (that they are almost totally myths). It’s embarrassing. He can’t even get right what they teach in the first place.

XI. “Heavily Pregnant” Donkey Ride?

Jonathan (in the same chapter and its title) describes Mary as “heavily pregnant” on the journey. How does he know that, pray tell? All the text says is that she was “with child” (Lk 2:5). So he makes it up (one of his many fairy tales), to make it look really really bad and callous and cruel on Joseph’s part. At least he restrained his hyper-polemics to some small degree. By the time of his article, Summing up the Nativity as Concisely as Possible (12-2-16), his amazing powers of seeing in Scripture things that aren’t there became exaggerated to describing Mary on this journey as a “9 month pregnant partner.”

XII. Jonathan Still Can’t Figure Out the Difference Between a Newborn and a Toddler

In his chapter, “No work for you, Joseph!” Jonathan finally seems to figure out that the magi visited a 1-2 year old Jesus; not the newborn Jesus. He writes: “These two events . . . appear not to happen concurrently . . . (and many claim that Jesus was a toddler by this time).” He actually got something in the Bible right: just as an unplugged clock gives the correct time twice a day. But alas, as soon as he stumbled into the truth, he went back to the falsehood in his next chapter (“The magi are copied from Daniel and are clearly a theological mechanism“):

They were sent to Bethlehem to praise the newborn king . . . 

Then he cites the ubiquitous Richard Carrier spewing the same error: “Matthew alone depicts Magi visiting Christ at birth . . .”

In his chapter 20 (“The magi and shepherds as evangelists are strangely silent“), he reiterates the error: “The magi . . . had undergone a huge effort just to drop some presents off and praise a baby . . .”

XIII. Mary Doubted That Jesus is the Messiah?

[W]hat could have possessed Mary . . . to doubt the messianic qualities of her son? (Any other business)

There simply is no evidence that this was the case, as I have written about several times (perhaps that’s why Jonathan doesn’t even try to document it):

Jesus’ “Brothers” Were “Unbelievers”? (Jason also claims that “Mary believed in Jesus,” but wavered, and had a “sort of inconsistent faith”) (vs. Jason Engwer) [5-27-20]

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XIV. Nazareth Maybe Didn’t Exist in Jesus’ Time Because a Supposed Catholic Pawn (Actually Jewish) Archaeologist Said it Did?!

Jonathan starts sowing the seeds of doubt and then mentions an archaeological dig in 2009 and concedes (?), stating: “we can see that the Myth of Nazareth theory . . . falls apart.” (Any other business). Having arrived at this ray of truth he immediately qualifies it in the next sentence: “However, things aren’t so simple. . . . Firstly, the dig was being carried out by the Catholic Church . . . We have no evidence, just the word of an archaeologist employed by the Catholic Church.”

I recently tackled this subject: Pearce’s Potshots #64: Archaeology & 1st Century Nazareth (2-25-22). Jonathan is outdoing himself in his fanatical cluelessness this time: more dumbfoundedness and “polemical desperation” than he usually exhibits (and that’s really saying something). The archaeologist in question, that he mentions by name, is Yardenna Alexandre, a British-Israeli Jew, and she was digging for the Israel Antiquities Authority (hardly a Catholic pawn), according to a report in The Times of Israel (7-22-20). Jonathan lays out bullet points as to why he thinks these findings are “suspect”:

Alexandre has not published any of the findings or verified any of the claims.

In volume 98 of ‘Atiqot (2020): the publication of the Israel Antiquities Authority, her 68-page article, “The Settlement History of Nazareth in the Iron Age and Early Roman Period” is found (fully accessible as a PDF file at the preceding journal link).

The Israel Antiquities Authority published a short statement, only to take it off the web soon after.

I see. Sounds like some kind of conspiracy, doesn’t it?! Be that as it may, since its own publication now hosts a 68-page description of the findings (complete with copious photographs and diagrams), it’s a rather moot point, ain’t it?

The Church remains the only port of call for verifying the claims.

That would come as big news to the Israel Antiquities Authority, who sponsored the dig.

The Church (rather conveniently) proceeded to build over the remains meaning it can never be verified.

Really? Oooh: more nefarious conspiracies by those wicked, devious, science-hating Catholics!

No materials exist in any scholarly record.

Well, if they didn’t in 2012 (since the excavation had only finished up the year before, and these things take time: as anyone familiar with the rigorous method of archaeology knows), they certainly do now, and there is additional evidence noted in my article above.

[I]t clearly shows the levels to which the Catholic Church (or any religious organisation) are willing to go to support their worldview. These points make the entire house claim thoroughly dubious. . . . The evidence has since been destroyed, it seems, without any independent and professional corroboration. . . . I remain agnostic as to whether Nazareth existed or was inhabited at the time of Jesus.

Some folks are slow and reluctant to follow the scientifically ascertained facts. Some might say that Jonathan wrote his book in 2012, and that he might change his mind by now, in early 2022. Not so! I pointed out that I had verified the archaeological excavations of early 1st-century Nazareth on his blog, and (rather than thanking me for the update) he became angry at me and stated that I had misrepresented his view and should read his book to see what that was. Now I have done so. At the time (just a week ago as I write), I was going by his own statement on his blog, from 10-29-12:

In my book, The Nativity: A Critical Examination, I think I give ample evidence that allows one to conclude that the historicity of the nativity accounts is sorely and surely challenged. All of the aspects and claims, that is. There are problems, for sure, if one accepts that some claims are false but others are true. But the simple fact of the matter is that all of the claims are highly questionable.

Here are the hoops that a Christian must jump through. They are flaming hoops, and the Christian can do nothing to avoid being burnt, it seems. From my book: 

In order for the Christian who believes that both accounts are factually true to uphold that faithful decree, the following steps must take place. The believer must: . . . 

• Believe that, despite archaeological evidence, Nazareth existed as a proper settlement at the time of Jesus’ birth.

As he said, the last two paragraphs there were from his book. And I see them now, on the very next two pages in the Nook Book version. I did nothing wrong in interpreting his words as I did. It was just “the Christian always has to be wrong in a dispute with an atheist, no matter what!” canard.

As it is, Jonathan wants to play the game of talking out of both sides of his mouth. He pokes fun of the Christian belief in the existence of first-century Nazareth (based on both the historically reliable Bible and archaeology), but falls short of asserting that it definitely didn’t, and remains “agnostic” on the question. How intellectually brave and courageous!  He covers his rear end, to please whoever he happens to be with at any given moment.

He plays the same game regarding Jesus mythicism, as we see in his words cited near the top of this article. He’s not a mythicist himself, but he mocks and derides anyone who thinks it is a fringe position in academia (as it certainly is: believed by no more than 1% of historians: if even that many). He has to “kiss up” like this because of the ever-growing ranks of mythicists among the atheist crowd these days. It’s an utterly pathetic and a disgraceful performance, from someone who refers to himself as a “philosopher.”

XV. Postscript: Jonathan’s Increasing Mockery and/or Silence in the Face of Legitimate and Substantive Critique

Jonathan doesn’t exhibit much of a desire to interact with substantive critiques anymore: such as the many I have lately been offering and posting on his blog. Here is how he responded to me there, on 3-1-22:

STOP IT STOP IT STOP IT. Please stop this. All you are doing is spouting the absolutely debunked drivel apologetics that my book takes to task. . . . I welcome your comments, but these are totally off-topic and you show absolutely no desire to interact with my own material . . . [capitalized “yelling” is his own]
And a day earlier, he waxed: “Oh very dear. This is rather embarrassing for you.” 
As anyone can see, my replies are almost solely devoted to direct interaction with his material. He mostly insults me now, all the while falsely claiming — almost in a semi-paranoid fashion — that my critiques are merely personal attacks on him; and he refuses to offer any intelligent counter-reply.
In other words, he’s melting down, after previously inviting me to come to his blog and offer critiques: see his words at the top of this article. If you persistently refute an atheist’s attacks on Christianity and the Bible (this is my 70th critique of Jonathan), this is what you eventually get. My friend, Paul Hoffer summed up the incongruity of his manifest attitude very well:
If Pearce were a real skeptic, he would thank you for your critical analysis, reexamine his own premises and conclusions and then either defend them if he still thinks he is in the right or adjust his thinking to fit the evidence. Instead, he comes across like a mutton-chopped millennial yelling at the barista at Starbucks who got his latte wrong.
He’s become progressively more hostile and rude. Despite all that sad display, however, I do think he’s basically a nice guy who is a much better person than his putrid, flatulent ideology. I think we’d have a great time in a pub over beer. He simply can’t handle being refuted. He’s like lots and lots of people of all stripes in that respect. And it’s the bane of my existence (as an apologist and lover of socratic dialogue), to see so few people willing to enter into the pleasure of true dialogue.
*
This is the fruit of the widely held atheist notion that all Christians are idiots, simply by virtue of the fact that they are Christians. They can’t possibly be honest, either: so tens of thousands of atheists think and express. So the more I replied to him, the more hostile he became, because this just ain’t supposed to happen, you see: that a lowly, imbecilic Christian can actually prevail in a debate (and many debates) over a smarter-than-thou atheist.
*
His blog is supposed to be a place for civil, ethical discussion between atheists and Christians. The new venue where it is hosted (OnlySky) — to its credit — has made a huge and sincere, commendable effort to foster civil discussion. Yet massive insults sent my way are freely allowed on Jonathan’s site, and even the guy who co-runs the blog with Jonathan (Bert Bigelow) made the following comment, congratulating a fellow mocker: “Huzzah! For the best, most articulate, and most detailed put-down of Dave A that I have seen. Thanks for taking the time to do it.” (3-3-22).
*

See how it works? An atheist blog is a place where the “moderators” [choke] literally encourage the commenters to engage in extended “put-down[s]” of Christians who dare to object to the cynical, lying misrepresentations of Christianity and the Bible. Yet Jonathan and his buddies, almost to a person, are scared to death of coming to my blog and commenting, even though they are treated courteously, and I would disallow personal insults from anyone sent their way.

*
They keep lying over there and claiming that I ban everyone as soon as they disagree with me, which is laughably ludicrous and manifestly, patently false. My interactions with Jonathan alone (who is most welcome on my blog, but rarely appears there) disprove the tired slander.
Proverbs 9:8 (RSV) Do not reprove a scoffer, or he will hate you; reprove a wise man, and he will love you.
Proverbs 14:6 . . . a fool throws off restraint and is careless.
Proverbs 29:9, 11 If a wise man has an argument with a fool, the fool only rages and laughs, and there is no quiet. . . . [11] A fool gives full vent to his anger, but a wise man quietly holds it back.
The only person who engaged in a perfectly normal, courteous, serious, substantive, enjoyable, charitable, sustained dialogue with me at Jonathan’s blog (i.e., after Jonathan stopped doing so) was “Lex Lata” (see our two-part dialogue [one / two] on the demoniacs and the pigs, Gerasenes and Gadarenes, etc.). People like Lex give me faith in the continuity of dialogue. I know it’s possible, and I’ve engaged in great dialogues with atheists many times (my very favorite of all of my 1000 + dialogues — way back in 2001 –, was, in fact, with an atheist).
*
But it’s rarer than a needle in a haystack, and the patience required to wait until one finds such an ultra-rare golden opportunity (and the willingness to be a “pin cushion” and a “dart board” for months on end) is scarcely humanly possible. But for the grace of God . . .
*
I will continue to critique Jonathan’s articles if I find something I haven’t dealt with yet: as opportunity arises. He’ll come to regret his contemptuous attitude, sent in my direction, in full view of all his back-slapping cronies and sycophants, because it only makes me more determined to spend time refuting his (and other atheists’) endless, relentless calumnies and slanders against the faith and the Bible and Christians.
*

But to end on a positive note: I do sincerely thank Jonathan for the relatively few times that he did actually offer a substantive counter-response to my critiques of his work (see a listing of those, under my name, in a search on his blog). That’s much more than I can say about his fellow well-known online anti-theist atheist polemicists Bob Seidensticker, Dr. David Madison, and John Loftus, who have never done it even once, after literally 80, 46, and 24 critiques (respectively) sent their way: adding up to 150 unanswered critiques.

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Photo credit: Cover of Pearce’s book on the GoodReads site.

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Summary: I take on anti-theist atheist Jonathan MS Pearce’s Nativity book errors. As always (sorely lacking grace), he demonstrates that he is relentlessly clueless & out to sea.

2022-02-01T11:32:37-04:00

Atheist anti-theist Jonathan M. S. Pearce is the main writer on the blog, A Tippling Philosopher. His “About” page from his former site states: “Pearce is a philosopher, author, blogger, public speaker and teacher from Hampshire in the UK. He specialises in philosophy of religion, but likes to turn his hand to science, psychology, politics and anything involved in investigating reality.” 

He has encouraged me to visit his site and offer critiques. Before he departed his former site at Patheos, he wrote under a post dated 12-14-21“I even need to thank the naysayers. Some of them have put up with a lot of robust pushback and still they come. Bravery or stupidity – it’s a fine line. But they are committed, and there is something to be said for taking that commitment into the lion’s den. Dave, you are welcome at my new place. Come challenge me. All the best to you and thanks for your critiques of my pieces. Sorry I couldn’t get to more of them.”

Again, at his new site (under a post dated 1-27-22), after a vicious attack by a commenter, calling for me and indeed all Christians to be banned, Jonathan offered an honorable and principled refusal: “I do welcome disagreements because I don’t want [my blog] to [be] just an echo chamber. As long as it is good faith . . . someone like Armstrong does give me ammunition for some of my pieces! As long as they aren’t trollish.” 

His words below will be in blue.

*****

This is a reply to his post, Christian apologetics and defending Matthew’s guards (1-31-22), which in turn is a response to my articles, Pearce’s Potshots #57: Matthew & the Tomb Guards (1-28-22) and Pearce’s Potshots #58: Paul & Jesus’ “Empty” Tomb (1-29-22).

There’s something meta going on

Oooh! More conspiracies underfoot?

when a Christian apologist takes aim at a biblical account of mine with some typical apologetics, claiming I am making stuff up out of whole cloth when I myself accused the Gospel writers (or apologists) of making stuff up out of whole cloth to defend themselves against Jewish accusations 2,000 years ago.

Or perhaps this is not meta, but hypocrisy, as you will see.

Yes it is not only hypocrisy, but high irony, that Jonathan does what he falsely accuses Matthew of doing, or — to put it more mildly — offers no proof or evidence whatsoever that Matthew was doing what he accuses him of doing.

This all concerns a small section of narrative—a pericope—that is only found in one Gospel (Matthew) and looks very much like the author made it up to serve a purpose. 

Where is the hard historical evidence that he did this? And lacking same, why is the hostile claim made in the first place? Does Jonathan claim to be able to read the mind and discern the interior motivations of a Jewish writer from 1900+ years ago? If so, I hope he explains to all of us how that works. Simply stating something and assuming it is compelling is not an intellectual argument.

I’m sure many — like myself — are waiting with baited breath to see this revelation of how Jonathan can read minds and motives at a distance. But don’t hold your breath, folks, because you’ll be waitin’ a long, LONG time.

Christians don’t like such claims because, of course, it all has to be true!

Merely silly and useless comment. He believes very strongly what he does; so do I. My view “has” to be true as long as I believe there is sufficient epistemological reason and reason in general (of many sorts) to believe it to be true (along with a reason for religious faith itself). That’s how I’ve always lived my life and how I have approached disputes of fact and clashing beliefs: which is why I’ve changed my mind in many major ways throughout my life.

First let me again present the thesis I am proposing which is, just to confirm, constructed from the Gospel data and is drawing on a lot of pre-existent biblical criticism,

. . . which is itself almost always arbitrary and pulled out of thin air. This is a major point I make throughout.

and not pulled out of thin air, my posterior, or constructed from whole cloth:

Yeah, he gets it from theologically liberal or skeptical or atheist academics. Atheist arguments are almost always recycled and regurgitated and parroted from others. Very few of them are brand new. But these arguments from the big-name, fashionable academics among atheists must be substantiated on their own, not just accepted because they have an axe to grind that Jonathan also happily wants to grind along with them.

  1. Paul does not mention the empty tomb narrative at all in the passion sequence concerning Jesus’ death and resurrection. This is bizarre because we would have expected him to do so (perfect reasons for so doing to defend his arguments in 1 Corinthians, for example).

As I wrote at the end of my previous reply to Jonathan:

Paul is under no moral, logical, or “literary” obligation to replicate all that the Gospels have about the empty tomb. They already covered that. Paul did mostly systematic theology, not recounting of events.

Knocking him for that is yet more of the silly argument from silence. I say that Paul stated pretty much what he should have been expected to say, given his purpose in his writing. The epistles were written for theological instruction and exhortation, not to reiterate the facts of the life of Jesus that Christians were already well familiar with.

From this perspective, I don’t see why we should “expect” him to mention it. He referred to the “tomb” once, as I showed last time (Acts 13:29) and to Jesus’ “burial” three more times in his epistles. It’s much ado about nothing. He mentioned it. Because I dared to submit Acts 13:29 for Jonathan’s consideration, he immediately upped the rhetoric and polemics a thousand-fold and melted down in his combox:

Wow, you are being willfully disingenuous. Please show me where Paul mentions the empty tomb or any of the narrative the gospels include about the empty tomb. You are being really dishonest here and skating close to the mark.

Lacking any compelling reason to question to question the authenticity of Acts 13:29 and Luke’s record of what Paul preached in that instance, he immediately did what atheists almost always do when their particular claims are shown to be false: 1) make a huge fuss, and 2) arbitrarily and with no provided compelling reason, deny that Acts 13:29 is a truthful accurate record of Paul’s words. How do we know it’s not accurate? As I wrote in my second reply back to Jonathan:

Luke’s trustworthiness as an accurate reporter of all kinds of things in the book of Acts has been rather dramatically verified by archaeology, again and again. . . . This is the criterion for any other ancient historian: are the things they report independently verified or substantiated?

That’s objective, hard evidence: the opposite of what Jonathan is offering. One can quibble about how relatively strong each individual instance of this archaeological confirmation is, but it is evidence.

2. Mark, the first Gospel (written 40 years after the death of Jesus and some decades after Paul), mentions the empty tomb. But he adds an odd sequence at the end of his narrative that no other later Gospel writer adds. Indeed, they outright contradict the claim. He and his Gospel (later versions interpolate further details) with the women witnesses to the empty tomb leaving and specifically not telling anyone about the empty tomb and what they had seen. [five typos corrected]

3. This very much appears to act as an explanation as to why his audience has not heard about the empty tomb—because the women kept it a secret, of course! After all, we need to explain why he mentions this secret-keeping but all the other Gospels contradict this.

This is old ground that I have already covered. Word-search for the section “Jesus: Resurrection” in my Armstrong’s Refutations of Alleged Biblical “Contradictions”  to find fifteen articles about all the alleged “difficulties” in the biblical accounts.

4. Matthew admits that Jews had been arguing that a better explanation of the empty tomb was that someone had stolen the body: “and this story was widely spread among the Jews and is to this day.” (Matthew 28:15)

Yes, it’s a perfectly plausible thing to believe actually happened. They didn’t believe in Jesus’ Resurrection and so they had to make up an alternate explanation for the empty tomb: precisely as atheists do today: including this very “stolen body” rationalization. We have Matthew’s report. Is it something that seems plausible or not? I think it clearly is. People hostile to one explanation of a purported event provide a contradictory one to explain the same thing. When folks didn’t like Jesus’ miracles, they tried to claim that they were done under the inspiration of the devil and not God (to which Jesus replied with his “a divided house cannot stand” discourse).

5. Matthew is the next Gospel after Mark, some 15+ years later, and is the only Gospel to include the narrative of their being guards at the door. This is odd, and is part of a slew of good evidence that it was made up by Matthew.

Saying there is “evidence” (hard, concrete, historical evidence) is not the same thing as demonstrating it. It remains the case that Jonathan has provided no such evidence that Matthew made up a whopper, save the conspiracy theories that emanate from his head and the heads of atheists whose ideas he parrots. The idea underlying this silliness seems to be, “if a nefarious plot to deceive readers is possible from the Evangelists, then it must be plausible or actual.” That doesn’t follow.

[An] eminent Catholic exegete admits that Matthew’s guards are “almost unintelligible” and that “there is neither internal nor external evidence to cause us to affirm historicity.” (The Death of the Messiah, Raymond Brown, 1994, p. 1311) [two typos corrected]

I’m delighted that Jonathan brought up Fr. Brown. I’ve been doing apologetics for 41 years: the last twenty as a full-time, published (11 books) Catholic apologist. I have observed a zillion times that the enemies of Christianity always bring up liberal or skeptical scholars who claim the name “Christian” in order to fight against various things in Christianity that they disbelieve. Atheists and cultists like Jehovah’s Witness, and Muslims, all use precisely this same technique. And I’ve debated them all.

But if a person cannot be said to accurately represent historical Christianity, then it is improper to cite them, and it should be noted that their views are heterodox, not orthodox, according to standard, historical Christian theological categories. Fr. Raymond Brown is one of these who is always brought up. He had some good things to say, like almost all scholars do. But he was a Catholic dissident, as I have documented:

Fr. Brown . . . cast doubt on the historical accuracy of numerous articles of the Catholic faith. These articles of faith, proclaimed by Popes and believed by the faithful over the centuries, include Jesus’ physical Resurrection; the Transfiguration; the fact that Jesus founded the one, true Catholic Church and instituted the priesthood and the episcopacy; the fact that 12 Apostles were missionaries and bishops; and the truth that Jesus was not “ignorant” on a number of matters.

Not least, though, was Fr. Brown’s exegesis concerning the infancy narratives of Saints Matthew and Luke that calls into question the virginal conception of Jesus and the accounts of our Lord’s birth and childhood.

In addition to Cardinal Shehan, such eminent peers of Fr. Brown as Msgr. George A. Kelly, Fr. William Most, Fr. Richard Gilsdorf, Fr. Rene Laurentin, and John J. Mulloy were highly critical of the Brown revisionism of the Catholic Church’s age-old theology of inspiration and inerrancy. (“Traditional Catholic Scholars Long Opposed Fr. Brown’s Theories,” Henry V. King, The Wanderer, 10 September 1998; reprinted at the Catholic Culture website)

This guy is supposed to represent historic Christianity? He does not! He’s skeptical of Matthew’s guards because he was skeptical even of all kinds of Catholic dogmas (things all Catholics are required to believe as a member of the faith). And I’m quite sure that if we examined Fr. Brown’s stated reason for doubting the veracity of the guards account, we would find nothing of any evidentiary value. It’ll be — so I confidently predict — like peeling an onion: no core. Just because he was famous and wrote a big 1000-page book that atheists like Jonathan are ecstatic about, doesn’t turn a non-argument (bald statements with no substantiation) into an actual argument.

Now Jonathan (with his oft-employed broad brush) will say that I am dismissing Christian scholarship per se, which is nonsense. I am dismissing those who masquerade as orthodox Catholics, but who are not at all: which is fundamentally intellectually dishonest. He himself does exactly the same thing from the opposite perspective. So, for example, Jonathan roundly mocks archaeologist and Egyptologist Kenneth A. Kitchen, who is a profound scholar, as if he were some uneducated troglodyte whose opinions are utterly worthless.

And why does he do that? Well, it’s because Kitchen is an archaeological “maximalist” who actually believes the Bible is trustworthy in matters of historical detail, and he is a practicing evangelical Protestant. That’s more than enough reason for Jonathan to immediately dismiss him out of hand. Here is an example of him sarcastically doing this:

He [yours truly!] then lists a bunch of Jewish and Christian conservatives, many from the 50s, 60s, and 70s, throwing in archaeologist Kenneth Kitchen for good measure. Always good to see an axiomatic biblical maximalist in there for fair and objective academia. (7-3-21)

Thus, if he is justified in dismissing a scholar like Kitchen because he actually believes in Christianity and the Bible, then by the same token I can dismiss the erroneous opinions of Fr. Brown: a man who was a Catholic priest, but who denied many Catholic dogmas. Goose and gander. Jonathan thinks Kitchen was intellectually dishonest and not a “true” archaeologist. I think Fr. Brown was intellectually dishonest and not a “true” Catholic (in the full sense of the words, including acceptance of dogmas). It doesn’t mean I would never cite him ever. In cases where he made a true observation, I certainly would.

Atheist philosopher Bertrand Russell, in his History of Western Philosophy (which I read many years ago) made a statement to the effect that a Christian (even someone like Thomas Aquinas) cannot truly do philosophy. Jonathan seems to think (with no basis) that an orthodox Christian cannot do theology, either. He or she must disbelieve several required tenets of their Christian faith in order to be a “true scholar.” This is epistemological madness.

Therefore, because I am an orthodox Catholic apologist, Jonathan must accuse me of “being willfully disingenuous . . . being really dishonest” when I defend the notion that Paul mentioned the empty tomb. He seems to be unable to classify me any other way. I actually believe that which I am defending, and so my opinions must be dismissed out of hand.

6. This looks like a counter-argument against the Jewish counter-arguments that the body was stolen. Matthew even phrases it like it is. Matthew appears to be privy to a private conversation between the guards and the Sanhedrin (Matthew 28):

I recently dealt with this issue of how the Evangelists could know “hidden / secret things.” In this case, one scenario that could explain it would be that a member of the Sanhedrin privy to such discussions later became a Christian and reported what was talked about. Nicodemus and Joseph of Arimathea were two such men. There could have been others. In fact, it could very well have been one of these two men who gave Matthew the information. Note that I am simply speculating on possibilities: not making foolish “certain” proclamations of what Matthew must have done, with no evidence.

7. This Christian polemic counter-counter-argument evidences that Mark invented (or communicated a developed narrative)

Yes, the oral traditions were present right from the time of Christ’s death and could be drawn from.

that did not exist in Paul’s time because otherwise Mark would have had to be dealing with the Jewish counter-arguments.

Of course it existed before Paul’s time . . .

But he didn’t because those arguments did not exist because no one in the wider community knew about the narrative before Mark’s Gospel.

Jonathan makes yet another universal negative statement — he never tires of these! — for which he has no hard evidence. Did you notice that he gave none? He simply spouts his fantasies as if they should be received with the utmost seriousness as unarguable profundities.

8. This is also supported by the fact that later Gospels did not include the women keeping secret since everyone did know about the empty tomb as a result of the late (compared to Paul and the events) communication of this part of the story. They had no need to explain the to their audiences why they had not heard of the empty tomb as Mark had to do.

See my defenses of the scriptural Resurrection accounts, under that category in my collection. Much ado about nothing. Groundless tin foil hat conspiracy theories . . .

9. The later Luke and John did not include the guards polemic. Christians equally need to explain this. I surmise that they saw it for what it was: an obviously ahistorical polemic.

I am not compelled to enter into a conspiratorial mindset. It’s a non-issue. The four Gospels have different emphases and different intended audiences. The Christian observes that if one of them mentioned something that was unique, so what? It’s in the New Testament somewhere, and that’s all that matters. There is no obligation for all four Gospels to be absolutely identical. What would be the point?! So all of them have unique things, because that’s what happens when four human beings take up writing about particular historical events.

I did not literally construct anything out of thin air. That is, er, literally impossible.

Did I even metaphorically do this?

No. I used data that is in the Gospels, and Matthew even admits to the Jews having a prevailing counter-argument. You cannot make things up out of thin air in proposing a coherent causal theory connecting actual data (Gospel claims). This is how all theories are constructed. Can we test it? Yes, for coherence. No, since we cannot go back in time. Data can disconfirm the theory (but doesn’t), if it could be found to do so. And this is the same case for the Christian thesis.

The hypothesis of Matthew simply making it up for polemical purposes has no supporting historical evidence. Period. Zero, zilch, zip, nada, nuthin’. The fact that Jonathan thinks it has explanatory value and should be believed because of the NT we have is not such evidence. One could “prove” [choke] virtually anything by the ridiculous criteria that Jonathan is employing.

Secondly, the fact that it is a hostile interpretation of Matthew’s motives has no connection whatsoever to what can be historically known. There is certainly nothing in the Bible about that. When  Evangelist Luke explains his motivation for writing his Gospel (1:1-4) it seems perfectly respectable, honest, and above board. We have no good reason to suspect his stated motivations. Likewise, with the other three.

But of course, in the conspiratorialist mentality (which always has a quick answer for everything), that is just a ruse to fool the folks, you see . . .

This part is pretty egregious: apparently I “constructed (literally out of thin air) an entire elaborate story of deceit and intent to deliberately lie about the events surrounding Jesus’ death.”

Yes! This is his view: Matthew made up a story and pretended that it was fact when he knew it to be fiction; a fairy-tale. As I noted today in his combox: that is serious immorality according to Christian ethics. It violates one of the Ten Commandments (not bearing false witness) and is an objectively mortal (grave) sin in Catholic teaching, and a serious sin according to all Christians.

Now Jonathan is trying to make out that he didn’t do what he has stated repeatedly. If I call him on it, he is highly offended. It’s the first part of his recent article (1-27-22) on the Guards at the tomb and Matthew (my bolding):

I’ve written before on why the guards at the tomb of Jesus, included only in the Gospel of Matthew, are almost certainly invented by the author of that Gospel. . . . 

Suffice to say that Matthew’s guards are a polemic created by the author to answer criticisms . . . 

Mark made up the Empty Tomb claim. [i.e., this is the basis for the further conspiratorialist claim that Matthew made up the guards story]

Everyone loves a good fairy tale, but this is a bad fairy tale.

I am not sure if my claims are deceitful and if I am lying about the events, or whether I claim deceit and lying in the sources I am talking about.

The latter. I haven’t (and have never) accused Jonathan of being deliberately dishonest or disingenuous. He has accused me of that (see the citation above).

Either way, he needs to sort out his rhetoric and walk back the accusation or not mischaracterize or misinterpret my claims. 

I don’t need to sort out or walk back anything. I have not misrepresented Jonathan. He thinks the Evangelists are (at least in some respects, not all) a pack of liars and that the ends justified the means for them. If they had to lie and deceive to get the story of Jesus Christ out, well, that’s just what they did! There’s not the slightest historical evidence for such an outrageous charge, but that won’t stop Jonathan from making it!

We’re back to the same old desperate Christian defenses that attack me rather than the substance of my arguments.

I have done no such thing. As always in my apologetics, I make a very vigorous “bulldog” argument against what I believe to be untrue and erroneous opinions. It’s ALL about the ideas, not persons. I think Jonathan is a nice guy who sincerely believes what he does, and that he is sincerely dead wrong on a zillion things, whenever he opines about the Bible and Christianity.

I have reiterated recently that I highly admire his allowing me to comment on his site. I have nothing whatever against him personally. I’m simply disagreeing with him. He’s said some nice things about me, too, but at times he becomes acerbic and makes it personal, and this is counter-productive in terms of good back-and-forth dialogue.

I think he may be too thin-skinned and oversensitive in this particular instance, causing him to “see” things in my critiques that simply aren’t there. He’s a human being. We’ve all done that at times.

Of course, it is worth noting that I didn’t pull the idea out of my posterior: the late Gospel invention of the empty tomb narrative has been around since Rudolf Bultmann proposed it in the early 20th century, and no doubt before.

Of course. See my comments about Fr. Raymond Brown above. All this does is send the process of how one manages to believe such conspiracy theories back to Bultmann, who has to explain where it came from; what actual evidence there is for it.  As we see in the Wikipedia article on him, Bultmann was another radical skeptic:

[H]e argued for replacing supernatural biblical interpretations with temporal and existential categorizations . . . This approach led Bultmann to reject doctrines such as the pre-existence of Christ. [which is blasphemy and rank heresy according to Christianity because it denies the divinity of Christ and the Trinity] . . . Bultmann carried form criticism so far as to call the historical value of the gospels into serious question.

Why should I care what such a man thinks? He hasn’t even gotten to first base in Christianity, having rejected Jesus’ divinity. He has no credibility for any orthodox Christian on those grounds alone. So your pride in drawing from him gets a “ho hum” / “what else is new?” from me. Of course you will like a guy who has beliefs like that.

Armstrong continues in a way that makes me pretty angry:

First and foremost, arguments of this type are arguments from silence (the logical fallacy, argumentum ex silentio), and as anyone familiar with logic and/or philosophy, and/or debating strategies in general knows (and Jonathan calls himself “a philosopher”), they carry little or no force at all.

Considering he wants me to, I presume, exchange cordially and intellectually with him, he goes about this in a bizarre way. He is intellectually and existentially insulting me with passive-aggressive comments…

Really? I have no such passive-aggressiveness. I like Jonathan. I have nothing against him; tons of objections to his beliefs. Noting that someone used the notorious argument from silence is not attacking the person who did it. It’s pointing out a logical fallacy. He just doesn’t like having his views vigorously critiqued. Almost everyone is that way. He’s not alone, by any means. And many get angry when that happens, as he now admits he is. But there is not the slightest reason to be.

If anyone should be angry here, it would be me, seeing what Jonathan is saying, but I’m not, because I have a very even-tempered, easy-going personality and am well-used to people getting angry when their views are critiqued. His task is to prove that he has not used the fallacy of the argument from silence. It’s pretty clear that he has, in talking about various Gospel writers who didn’t mention things, and then poor old pitiful Matthew, who feels led to construct a lie as a result.

But he is also wrong. This is not an argument from silence, only a part of it is. The Paul claim is the only part that is, and it is valid, as I set out in an entire chapter on this in The Resurrection: A Critical Examination of the Easter Story. He can deal with that. This isn’t “pulled out of thin air” but he is certainly “skating on thin ice”.

I’m not referring to only Paul, but also the other Evangelists. He asserts their silence over and over in his previous related article (1-27-22):

Mark mentions nothing of the guards at the tomb because there is not yet a counter-argument. . . . 

Yet Mark mentions nothing. There are no Jewish counter-claims, so Mark needs no counter-counter-claims. The lack of a pre-existing empty tomb narrative is the only thing that makes sense of the lack of guards in Mark, and their addition in Matthew. . . . 

Luke and John don’t include them at all, which is a very good argument for their lack of authenticity. . . . Presumably, Luke and John omitted them because they saw it for what it was—an obvious polemic mechanism. . . . 

So now Jonathan is objecting loudly to my characterization of his argument, while not even being aware of precisely what I am arguing.

He goes on to give three definitions of an argument from silence but does not in any way explain how the above entire claim is an argument from silence. Go figure.

Well, now I have! I thought it was so obvious that I didn’t need to spell it out.

Of course, as you will notice, mention of the tomb is in Luke/Acts, not Paul’s writing. 

So what? It’s irrelevant. You claimed Paul never mentioned the empty tomb. Luke records a sermon where he in fact did do so.

And the rest, well, this is embarrassing stuff. This is taking the idea that he has died and been buried (well, yes…), and projecting his own ideas onto that. “Well, he was buried, so it must have been a tomb! And he left it, so it must have been empty! So Paul obviously mentions the empty tomb narrative!”

Nice try. This is so wearisome. I was projecting no ideas of my own. It was cross-referencing, which Bible students do all the time: interpreting one passage in light of another on the same topic and/or from the same person. So Paul states three times in the epistles that Jesus was “buried.” What should we think he meant by that? Buried in what? Well, Acts 13:29 fills that little information gap.

Now we know that Paul agreed that He was buried in a tomb, and so when he says “buried” in the epistles it’s reasonable to assume in light of this that he meant “buried in a tomb.” This is simple logic. Jonathan can fuss and protest and raise a big stink about it all he wants (much ado about nothing, and it would be at least entertaining and amusing if it weren’t so boorish), but it’s simple logic and common sense.

Yes: if a tomb is mentioned as the resting place of a dead person (Jesus, here), and then the narrative goes on to say that He was resurrected, then it follows inexorably that we have also an “empty tomb.” I didn’t invent logic. It is what it is. A=a.

Jonathan wasn’t talking in those instances (at least going by his words) the entire story of disciples seeing the empty tomb, entering it, etc., but whether Paul mentioned the tomb at all. Thus, he wrote on 1-31-21: “Paul has no mention of an empty tomb; Just Jesus was ‘buried’.” And on 11-10-21: “The phrase ‘he was buried’ is ambiguous, and does not necessarily imply an entombment.” Acts 13:29 resolves all this speculation.

Except no. Paul has a spiritual body resurrection that has no need for an empty tomb, 

This is sheer nonsense, and I have refuted it several times:

Pearce’s Potshots #56: Paul & Jesus’ Resurrection [12-10-21]

Seidensticker Folly #26: Spiritual Bodies R Still Bodies! [10-9-18]

Seidensticker Folly #52: Spiritual Bodies R Physical [9-10-20]

and there is far, far greater likelihood that Jesus was dishonorably buried in a criminal’s necropolis. See my extensive chapter and writing in this in my Resurrection book.

I’ve dealt with this as well:

Pearce’s Potshots #49: Homer & the Gospels (Mythmaking Scholar Suggests the Story of Priam in the Iliad as the Model for a Fictional Joseph of Arimathea) [10-15-21]

Pearce’s Potshots #52: No Tomb for Jesus? (Skeptical Fairy Tales and Fables vs. the Physical Corroborating Evidence of Archaeology in Jerusalem) [11-10-21]

His claim that Jesus “was ‘buried’ (i.e., in a tomb, which is how they do it in Israel)” shows a real lack of knowledge of the subject matter. Criminals—especially ones accused of high treason and blasphemy—would never have been buried in a tomb, family or otherwise, at least until after a year of ritual purification in a criminal’s graveyard, or more likely in Jerusalem, necropolis. Such a place would have been the Graveyard for the Stoned and the Burned.

That’s simply not true (and there he goes with his irresponsible “never” statements again), as I showed in the above two papers (especially the second, which documents from actual relevant Roman law records regarding burials).

It is far more likely that Jesus was stoned, then hung upon a post, as this was literally the punishment for his crime. There are plenty of sources for all of this stuff if Armstrong wants to look:

  • Josephus Antiquities of the Jews 4.8.6.
  • Christian Byron R. McCane, in ‘“Where No One Had Yet Been Laid”: The Shame of Jesus’ Burial’.
  • Mishnah Sanhedrin 6.5 and 6.6.
  • Talmud Sanhedrin 47a (amongst also the Tosefta).
  • Midrash Rabbah Numbers XXIII:13 (877).
  • On stoning: Josephus Jewish Wares 4.202, 260; Leviticus 24:14; Acts 7; Mishnah Sanhedrin 6.4…
  • …and so on.

Yet somehow, the massive majority of historians and Bible scholars (Jonathan loves to count up academic heads) — conservative and liberal alike — believe He was crucified. I concur with them (and the Bible got it right, as always). Jonathan is free to adopt an eccentric opinion (drawn largely from “hostile witnesses”) if he likes. But he can’t present it as a mainstream opinion. See, for example, the “Crucifixion” sections of the article, “Punishments in Ancient Rome” (Facts and Details).

Now why is it that all of a sudden, Jonathan won’t cite Fr. Raymond Brown when it comes to whether Jesus was crucified? It’s probably because he wrote a book entitled, A Crucified Christ in Holy Week (1986). So he’s a font of wisdom when he agrees with Jonathan’s opinion, but alas, “Needs to [like me!] do his research” when it comes to the question of how Jesus was murdered.

Armstrong needs to do his research because, and even though he is providing merely inference based on his own projection, his inferences are wholly incorrect. If he can’t be bothered to read up about it, there is this:

Yeah, been there, done that, in installments #49 and #52 answering Jonathan, which he appears unaware of, seeing that he has ignored almost all of my recent critiques. Occasionally, — often when he gets teed off (as presently) — he will attempt an answer. But his mostly ignoring my replies makes him say silly things about what I have done or supposedly not done.

Paul would surely have made reference to some aspect of the entire empty tomb narrative given he is arguing with the Corinthians about certain elements of the Resurrection.

I don’t see any compelling reason why he “surely” must do so. Again, it’s mere empty speculation. That’s all Jonathan has been giving us with this particular argument of his.

Instead, he uses Old Testament quotes to buttress his arguments, which is bizarre.

Why is it at all “bizarre”? It was standard New Testament practice to cite the Old Testament, because before the NT was compiled, that was what they meant (almost always in the NT; a few exceptions) by “Scripture”: accepted by all observant Jews and Christians as God’s infallible revelation. Part and parcel of the Gospel is that Jesus was the Jewish Messiah, Who fulfilled scores and scores of OT prophecies about the Messiah. It was regarded as evidence in support of His claims to be the Messiah and God in the flesh.

There is no reference to the women as first witnesses,

Yet another argument from silence . . .

nothing concerning Apostolic verification: “We know this, Corinthians, because X saw Y.”

This is untrue, as I have already shown:

1 Corinthians 15:5-7 (RSV) . . . he appeared to Cephas [Peter], then to the twelve. [6] Then he appeared to more than five hundred brethren at one time, most of whom are still alive, though some have fallen asleep. [7] Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles.

GO TO PART TWO

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Photo credit: Saint Paul Writing His Epistles (c. 1620), attributed to Valentin de Boulogne (1591-1632) [public domain / Wikimedia Commons]

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Summary: I critique atheist Jonathan MS Pearce’s relentless attack on the truthfulness of the Gospel texts & the honesty of the four Evangelists, i.e., fairy tale atheist eisegesis.

 

2021-12-01T12:57:28-04:00

This article came about as a result of dialogues on atheist Jonathan MS Pearce’s blog, A Tippling Philosopher. Words of atheist Geoff Benson will be in blue; those of atheist eric in green, and Jonathan MS Pearce‘s in purple.

*****

On the odd occasions I venture to religious Patheos I never fail to be surprised by how little comment they generate.

I’ve explained this several times. We’re preaching to the choir in large part and so our followers agree with what we write.

With atheists, on the other hand, they feel themselves put-upon and persecuted by the larger Christian culture (except maybe not in the extremely post-Christian UK) and so they love to get together and bolster each other’s confidence, by (largely) mocking, insulting, and caricaturing Christians and Christianity and the Bible, so as to rationalize their own disbelief.

This generates tons of comments, whereas no Christian site can be found with an analogous obsession with pummeling atheists. We’re more busy getting on with our lives.

Moreover, we readily see here and in other atheist sites that it is relatively few folks commenting over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again.

So you might have four obsessed atheists making fifty comments each in a thread (that’s already 200 in short order) and a few brave theists going back-and-forth with ’em, for another 150-200 (mostly short, tweet-like utterances) and you’re quickly up to 400, but what does this prove? The truth of atheism? Hardly. It proves that these four people have nothing better to do than to mock and caricature a Supreme Being that they don’t even believe exists.

It’s true obsession and the True Believer syndrome. And it’s mostly an echo chamber and an impervious bubble.

Bert [Bigelow]‘s scorecard shows we could pretty much all do with a bit more focus on content posts and fewer snipes. However if you think the traffic difference is merely a ‘squeaky wheel’ effect of few but greater posting nonbelievers, rather than than an actual difference in what on-line folks are interested in discussing, then I think you’re engaging in a bit of wishful thinking. There’s been a roughly 12-point drop in the last 10 years in USAians who self-identify as Christian, and a corresponding growth in Nones. And young people are on line much more than older people. You don’t think the traffic trends such as the one on Patheos might be related to this very real trend? That it’s just an echo chamber effect not related to the number of real young people turning from religious to nonreligious thought? I would argue that places like here, right here, and places like your site, are where you’re losing the next generation. That traffic differences in places such as Patheos are at the very least a trailing indicator of that real trend, if not a leading cause.

Absolutely. That’s what I didn’t mention: the growth of atheism. That means lots of “young Turks” coming on like gangbusters, full of zeal and fury alike. I spoke generally. There are other factors as well. This is one of them.

Just for the record, my blog at the Catholic channel [at Patheos, the same host as Jonathan’s blog] either gets the most traffic or is near the top and has been for over six years. Also, comments don’t count as pageviews, as I understand it.

So it’s not exactly my blog that is on the leading edge of driving people into atheism. In fact, there are several hundred documented cases of folks crediting my writing for their becoming Catholics or returning to the Church.

Secularism has been growing and expanding since WWII and really took off after the Sexual Revolution. What we see today is no surprise at all. I’ve been saying for years that the US is ten years behind the secularism in Canada and 20 behind the UK. It has all come to pass. We’ll have hell to pay in the long run as a result. Western Civilization is an increasingly unpleasant place to be.

Fun fact: the nonreligious channel produces over half of the traffic to the entire Patheos site.

Exactly: for the reasons I gave. Traffic is not the end-all of significance. Thinking it is is just the ad populum fallacy, and you know better than that. Me, I prefer substantive content and quality to mostly insults and caricatures and quantity.

Porn sites no doubt have exponentially more traffic than atheist sites. Does it follow that they are better or more worthwhile or important? Of course not.

Now you’re shifting the goal posts. Your original claim was that the higher traffic on JP’s site was due to (I’ll quote you): “it is relatively few folks commenting over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again.” What I’ve pointed out is that this is probably not true. Your statement is not true.

Why: because we have statistical trend data to indicate that there is a real shift in the number of USAians expressing None-type ideology vs. traditional Catholic or Protestant theology, and this data shows that the shift is occurring predominantly in the young. Given that young people tend to be more on-line, it seems very reasonable to conclude from our statistical information that the observed predominance of None-type talk over traditional theological talk on places such as Patheos is driven by an actual predominance of None-type viewers over traditional theological viewers amongst the real posters who visit and post on Patheos. Your lower traffic is not due to JP getting ‘four people who post 50 comments each’, it’s due to a higher number of individual visitors – actual people – who would rather read JP’s stuff than yours.

I have no idea whether the traffic on porn sites is due to a few many-repeat visitors or a broader base that visits them less frequently. I’ll take a SWAG and say I bet the distribution follows the power law. But I do know that when someone starts a conversation talking about whether traffic is generated by a few individuals vs. many, and ends by saying they were discussing post quality not quantity of visitors, that that is a goalpost shift.

Well said. And you are right in linking it to trend data and demographic shifts. AFAICT all the Patheos traffic data shows this. Patheos know this too, which presents a dilemma, because they both need us and hate what we say!

Nonsense. I first made a generalized statement about actual commenter behavior (which was backed up, incidentally, by the recent criticisms of site co-operator Bert Bigelow). Then when the phenomenon of growing atheism was mentioned, I readily agreed, saying, “Absolutely. That’s what I didn’t mention: the growth of atheism. . . . I spoke generally. There are other factors as well. This is one of them.”

One generalization doesn’t rule out others, as if there is but one cause for any given state of affairs, or as if my saying the second thing (agreeing with you) contradicts my original observation. So your comment is fundamentally silly. No one is more aware of multiple causation than a sociology major, as I was. We see the results of secularism all around us in the US. My family sees it in our children’s friends: ostensibly Catholic or Protestant, but becoming obviously more secularized and leftist and sexually liberal all the time. It’s happening right before our eyes. I’m the last one to deny that.

Clearly, a rise in atheists will lead to more traffic on atheist sites. DUH! But one must also make a deeper analysis. What we see online is not representative of entire communities, whether we are talking about Christians or atheists. It’s a small sub-sector. Atheists online tend to be of the anti-theist variety: always running down Christianity and Christians and the Bible.

But atheists in real life are quite different (broadly speaking). They’re not as obsessed with Christianity. I know this, too, having been with many of them in person, in their homes (and my home), in extensive dialogue. So I can talk about online atheist behavior, while knowing full well that it doesn’t represent atheists across the board. The same is true of unsavory Christian expression online as well.

People behave very differently online, compared to in person.

*

It’s no coincidence that countries recording the highest levels of contentment and happiness are also the most secular. The US is at a strange, I think transitional, stage at the moment where it understands the enlightened world of reason and rationality, but somehow is unable to shake off the yoke of religious belief. I know you are diametrically opposed to this view, but I think I’m seeing it for what it is.

I found an article from a site called Philanthropy Roundtable, entitled, “Less God, Less Giving?: Religion and generosity feed each other in fascinating ways” (Karl Zinsmeister, Winter 2019). I shall cite it at length (because there is so much great and relevant information in this article):

When researchers document how people spend their hours and their money, religious Americans look very different from others. Pew Research Center investigators examined the behavior of a large sample of the public across a typical seven-day period. They found that among Americans who attend services weekly and pray daily, 45 percent had done volunteer work during the previous week. Among all other Americans, only 27 percent had volunteered somewhere. (See graph 7)

The capacity of religion to motivate pro-social behavior goes way beyond volunteering. Religious people are more involved in community groups. They have stronger links with their neighbors. They are more engaged with their own families. Pew has found that among Americans who attend worship weekly and pray daily, about half gather with extended family members at least once a month. For the rest of our population, it’s 30 percent. (See graph 8)

Of all the “associational” activity that takes place in the U.S., almost half is church-related, according to Harvard sociologist Robert Putnam. “As a whole,” notes Tim Keller,  “secularism is not good for society.” Secularism “makes people very fragmented—they might talk about community, but they aren’t sacrificing their own personal goals for community, as religion requires you to do.”

Religious practice links us in webs of mutual knowledge, responsibility, and support like no other influence. Seven out of ten weekly church attenders told Pew they consider “work to help the needy” an “essential part” of their faith. Most of them put their money and time where their mouth is: 65 percent of weekly church attenders were found to have donated either volunteer hours or money or goods to the poor within the previous week. (See graph 9)

Philanthropic studies show that people with a religious affiliation give away several times as much every year as other Americans. Research by the Lilly School at Indiana University found Americans with any religious affiliation made average annual charitable donations of $1,590, versus $695 for those with no religious affiliation. Another report using data from the Panel Study for Income Dynamics juxtaposed Americans who do not attend religious services with those who attend worship at least twice a month, and made fine-tunings to compare demographic apples to apples. The results: $2,935 of annual charitable giving for the church attenders, versus $704 for the non-attenders. (See graph 10) In addition to giving larger amounts, the religious give more often—making gifts about half again as frequently.

In study after study, religious practice is the behavioral variable with the strongest and most consistent association with generous giving. And people with religious motivations don’t give just to faith-based causes—they are also much likelier to give to secular causes than the nonreligious. Two thirds of people who worship at least twice a month give to secular causes, compared to less than half of non-attenders, and the average secular gift by a church attender is 20 percent bigger. (See graph 11) . . .

America’s tradition of voluntary charitable giving is one of the clearest markers of U.S. exceptionalism. As a fraction of our income, we donate over two and a half times as much as Britons do, more than eight times as much as the Germans, and at 12 times the rate of the Japanese. . . .

Other research shows that of America’s top 50 charities, 40 percent are faith-based.

An even more inclusive 2016 study by Georgetown University economist Brian Grim calculated the economic value of all U.S. religious activity. Its midrange estimate was that religion annually contributes $1.2 trillion of socioeconomic value to the U.S. economy. This estimate includes not only the fair market value of activity connected to churches (like $91 billion of religious schooling and daycare), and by non-church religious institutions (faith-based charities, hospitals, and colleges), but also activity by faith-related commercial organizations. That $1.2 trillion is more than the combined revenue of America’s ten biggest tech giants. It is bigger than the total economy of all but 14 entire nations. . . .

[M]embers of U.S. churches and synagogues send four and a half times as much money overseas to needy people every year as the Gates Foundation does! . . .

Over the last couple decades, soaring interest in the poorest of the poor by evangelical Christians in particular has made overseas giving the fastest growing corner of American charity. One result: U.S. voluntary giving to the overseas poor now totals $44 billion annually—far more than the $33 billion of official aid distributed by the U.S. government.

There are many other types of charity and social healing where religious givers are dominant influences.

  • Religious Americans adopt children at two and a half times the overall national rate, and they play a particularly large role in fostering and adopting troubled and hard-to-place kids. (See graph 13)
  • Local church congregations, aided by umbrella groups like Catholic Charities, provide most of the day-to-day help that resettles refugees and asylum seekers arriving in the U.S.
  • Research shows that the bulk of volunteers mentoring prisoners and their families, both while they are incarcerated and after they are released, are Christians eager to welcome offenders back into society, help them succeed, and head off returns to crime. . . .
  • Faith-based organizations are at the forefront of both care and recovery for the homeless. A 2017 study found that 58 percent of the emergency shelter beds in 11 surveyed cities are maintained by religious providers—who also delivered many of the addiction, health-care, education, and job services needed to help the homeless regain their independence. (See graph 16)
  • Local congregations provide 130,000 alcohol-recovery programs.
  • Local congregations provide 120,000 programs that assist the unemployed.
  • Local congregations provide 26,000 programs to help people living with HIV/AIDS—one ministry for every 46 people infected with the virus.
  • Churches recruit a large portion of the volunteers needed to operate organizations like Habitat for Humanity, Meals on Wheels, America’s thousands of food pantries and feeding programs, Big Brothers Big Sisters, the Red Cross, and other volunteer-dependent charities. . . .

It isn’t just a matter of serving and healing others. People of faith also behave differently themselves. There is lots of evidence that in addition to encouraging a “brother’s keeper” attitude that manifests itself in philanthropy and volunteering, religious participation also inculcates healthy habits that help individuals resist destructive personal behavior themselves.

A classic study by Harvard economist James Freeman found that black males living in inner-city poverty tracts were far less likely to engage in crime and drug use if they attended church. Church attendance was also associated with better academic performance and more success in holding jobs. Follow-up studies found that regular church attendance could even help counterbalance threats to child success like parental absence, low school quality, local drug traffic, and crime in the neighborhood.

Regular religious participation is correlated with many positive social outcomes: less poverty, fewer divorces and more marital happiness, fewer births out of wedlock, less suicide, reduced binge-drinking, less depression, better relationships. This is true among Americans of all demographic backgrounds.

Given all the evidence linking religious practice with both healthy individual behavior and generosity toward others, recent patterns of religious decline are concerning. . . .

It’s clear that America’s unusual religiosity and extraordinary generosity are closely linked. As faith spirals downward, voluntary giving is very likely to follow.

I’m suspicious of this study. Basically there’s a Templeton connection with one of the Board members, and Templeton connections never end well. You’ll criticise me for being so readily dismissive (probably rightly!) but I’m always suspicious of these sorts of study which, I think, run contrary to reality.

Of course this is the one that says Christians do more good stuff.

*

The link is clear, and sociology (my major in college) confirms it. It’s not just Christians saying we are better than others (circular argumentation). And to the extent we are better, in the Christian view it is all ultimately God‘s doing. God’s grace and enabling power transform our lives and make us capable of doing good and righteous and loving, charitable things. We merely cooperate with that grace. This is the teaching of Catholicism, Orthodoxy, and historic Protestantism alike: human beings (including atheists) can literally do no good thing without the enabling power of God’s grace.

But the above information from social science clearly shows that if we want a better society, we will encourage religion, not discourage it. If we want a less caring, more heartless, less charitable, less other-directed society, we will encourage atheism and neglect of church attendance. That’s not my subjective, biased opinion as a Christian; it’s the objective data of sociology. Of course, I would have predicted precisely this, and the secular science backs up what Christianity has said all along: that God (i.e., when we actually cooperate with Him and let Him be the primary purpose of our lives) produces better, more loving and caring human beings on the whole.

See also:

Secularization: Thoughts on its Many Historical Causes [9-13-03; rev. 1-20-04]

Christian Sexual Views and Support from Sociology (Discussions About Christian Sexual Morality and Marriage with Atheists) [12-8-06]

Is America a “Moral Sewer” (Due to Secularism)? [9-5-15]

Sociology: Absence of Mother or Father Harms Children [6-23-16]

Christian Civilization Self-Demolition [8-5-16]

Debate: Do Liberal Social Policies Lessen Abortion & Poverty? [4-12-17]

Gun Control & Deep-Rooted Societal Causes of Massacres [10-5-17]

Social Science: Religion Leads to Lower Suicide Rates [6-9-18]

Seidensticker Folly #1: Atheist vs. Christian Generosity [8-12-18]

Sexual Revolution: Not “Liberation” But Societal Tragedy [9-6-19]

Sociology: Devout Married Christians Have Best Sex [2-29-20]

Sociology: Undeniably, Religion Makes Us Better Human Beings [5-10-21]

It depends on what one means by “happiness” also. The UN puts out a “World Happiness Report.” According to that, here are the happiest countries (note that they are overwhelmingly first world / western countries):

  1. Finland
    2. Denmark
    3. Switzerland
    4. Iceland
    5. Norway
    6. Netherlands
    7. Sweden
    8. New Zealand
    9. Austria
    10. Luxembourg
    11. Canada
    12. Australia
    13. United Kingdom
    14. Israel
    15. Costa Rica
    16. Ireland
    17. Germany
    18. United States
    19. Czech Republic
    20. Belgium

It looks to me like it basically boils down to the richest countries producing happier people. This is the myth that money supposedly makes one happy more than any other factor. If you believe that, I have some oceanfront property in Kansas to sell you. Hence, we see a lot of overlap between this list and a listing of the highest median income in nations:

1) Luxembourg – 26,321
2) United Arab Emirates – 24,292
3) Norway – 22,684
4) Switzerland – 21,490
5) United States – 19,306
6) Canada – 18,652
7) Austria – 18,405
8) Sweden – 17,625
9) Denmark – 17,432
10) Netherlands – 17,154

No I don’t think that’s the correlation necessarily, except insofar as poverty leads to unhappiness. Having always to wonder where your next meal comes from is a miserable existence. Wondering what your next new car might be does not necessarily generate happiness. The generally accepted view isn’t one of wealth, but of social programmes. Countries that have succeeded in achieving a mutually satisfactory social contract with its citizens, whereby the state offers care and services in return for duties and responsibilities is, more probably, the answer.

So let’s run with the UN chart a bit. Finland (Sibelius!) is the happiest country in the world? How religious is Finland?:

Most Finns are Christians. The largest religious community in Finland is the Evangelical Lutheran Church of Finland (Suomen evankelis-luterilainen kirkko), to which about 70% of the population belongs. . . .

Approximately one third of the people living in Finland do not officially belong to any religious community. [source]

Doesn’t sound atheist-dominated to me. But #2 Denmark fits much better, being 68% atheist, and the tenth most atheistic country, according to a website about the most atheistic countries.

China and Japan are the most atheist (91% and 87%), and they are nowhere to be seen on the above “happiness” chart.

#3 Switzerland is 64.6% Christian and just 27.8% unaffiliated [source].

#4 Iceland fits your schema better. It has about a 75% rate of claimed religious affiliation, although it is said that “A large part of the population remain members of the Church of Iceland, but are actually irreligious and atheists, as demonstrated by demoscopic analyses.”

#5 Norway is similar to Iceland. Religious nominalism abounds. So the Wikipedia page on its religiosity states:

“Most members of the state church are not active adherents, except for the rituals of birth, confirmation, weddings, and burials. Some 3 per cent on average attend church on Sunday and 10 per cent on average attend church every month.” . . .

[O]fficially belonging to a religion does not necessarily reflect actual religious beliefs and practices. In 2005, a survey conducted by Gallup International in sixty-five countries indicated that Norway was the least religious country in Western Europe, with 29% counting themselves as believing in a church or deity, 26% as being atheists, and 45% not being entirely certain.

It’s a mixed bag so far, with three countries of the “top 5” fitting into your view and two (including the supposedly “happiest”) more into mine.

#6 Netherlands is very secular:

The majority of the Dutch population is secular. . . . In 2015, 82% of the Netherlands’ population said they never or almost never visited a church, and 59% stated that they had never been to a church of any kind. Of all the people questioned, 24% saw themselves as atheist, . . . [source]

#7 on the happy list, Sweden, is 78% atheist.

The rest is comprised mostly of rapidly secularizing countries (since this is the case in the west, as opposed to Africa, where the trend is precisely the opposite). So you could make a case for secularism leading to more “happiness” on this basis, but again, I question the premise, which seems to be basically that more money makes a person happier (a typical secularist / non-religious view, with money becoming an almost religious and idolatrous pursuit). If the criteria were different, then there would be countries other than western ones on the list. It seems rather narrow-minded and bigoted against the non-western world.

These are almost all lily-white countries, save for Israel, Costa Rica, and the US with its large black and Hispanic minorities (which themselves are highly religious, as everyone knows). Are we to believe that to be happy, you gotta be white and rich? That is essentially the thinking of the UN in this list. I vehemently deny it. Being white and having a lot of money has very little relationship to true contentment, happiness, peace of mind, purpose, etc. I think it’s a shallow and (yes) bigoted, xenophobic analysis.

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Summary: What makes for “happy” people, and how is “happy” defined? Are atheist, secularist countries filled with “happier” people than Christian-dominated ones?

2021-11-12T18:24:25-04:00

Pearce’s Potshots #53: Omniscience, Omnipotence, Foreknowledge, Judgment, Animals & Humans, Free Will, Anthropomorphism, & Anthropopathism

From dialogue on atheist and anti-theist Jonathan MS Pearce’s Tippling Philosopher blog, under his article, The Bible Shows God Is Not Omniscient (11-11-21). Words of eric will be in blue, those of Ben B in green, of Jonathan (from the original post) in brown, and words of MadScientist1023 in purple.

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I feel like triggering Dave Armstrong and what better way to do this than to get his longjohns in a twist about the Noah’s Flood story. This is from a chapter I am editing in a book I am just finishing (would be ready for proofers to look at later today – I have appealed to three previous proofers, but if anyone else wants to look at it, please let me know below):

The final story here that shows that God really doesn’t have omniscience is the Noah’s flood story. This never happened, that much is true. . . . 

We must understand that this is a story of God killing all of humanity, bar eight [He didn’t; it was not “anthropologically universal], and all of the animal kingdom bar two of each kind [He didn’t; it was a local Mesopotamian Flood] (or seven depending on which iteration of the story from Genesis you read) [I’ve addressed that issue, too]. That is an awful lot of death. Why? Because God then realised how wicked humanity had become. He either never knew this before or he is very forgetful.

In fact, the whole nature of the story is one big invalidation of his omni-characteristics. He realises that he has messed up his creation in that his designed and created humans were all wicked, destroys them all and starts over, all the while promising never to send such floods and destruction again. This is a very human – anthropomorphic – god acting in a very human, non-omniscient way.

God is clearly showing a limited knowledge of how his creation would operate going forward – he is being reactive and not proactive. Simply put, this story as told invalidates God’s omniscience and foreknowledge.

A truly omnibenevolent and omniscient god would not have knowingly designed and created something for the main components to go wrong right at the start and then have to destroy them all (you know, with healthy loving dollops of suffering and death) and start again. This is incompetence at best, malevolence at worst.

Or, the flood never happened and OmniGod doesn’t exist.

There, fixed it.

Nothing here to get one’s longjohns in a twist about.

Different Christians believe different stuff (really!!!), and there are hyperliteralist fundamentalists (no kidding!!!). Ho hum. Yawn. Truth is not determined by taking a poll of heads. That’s the ad populum fallacy.

The other stuff about God being ignorant, supposedly taken by surprise, etc. has to do with the non-literal literary devices of anthropomorphism and anthropopathism and their frequent employment by the biblical writers. I’ve explained this many times, including to you, but obviously to no avail.

For those who want to actually properly understand this aspect, so they can cease being profoundly ignorant and from saying idiotic things about the Bible and Christianity, see my articles (links are in the texts below):

Anthropopathism and Anthropomorphism: Biblical Data (God Condescending to Human Limitations of Understanding) [1-7-17]

Seidensticker Folly #33: Clueless Re Biblical Anthropopathism [7-24-19]

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Your god still either didn’t see the Fall coming, or he knew what would happen and deliberately set up Adam and Eve. Which one is it?

Neither. He knows all things. He gave Adam and Eve and all human beings free will to follow Him or go their own way. He warned them the consequences of doing the latter, but they chose to rebel, and He has the prerogative as Creator to judge them (and all the world, as the case may be), just as — by analogy — we have human judges and courts for the purpose of judging wrongdoers who break human laws (based on absolute standards of morality and right and wrong).

But the judges don’t know who is going to steal or kill or rape before it actually happens. If your god did know that it would happen and not only did nothing to stop it but actively arranged things so that it would happen, then, by definition, he set them up. Blaming Adam or Eve, who couldn’t have known any better since they had yet to eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, is as morally wrong as a judge sending a mentally ill person to the gallows.

He didn’t “actively arrange it”; He permitted it because of human free will and free choice. That’s your mistake. In some forms of Calvinism and fundamentalism derived from it He did (so they wrongly believe) what you say, but that’s a tiny Christian position, numbers-wise, now and throughout history and so can’t claim to represent Christianity as a whole.

The choice of Adam and Eve, and all of mankind with them (as Christ theology teaches) was to obey God or to go their own way and rebel against Him. They knew enough to make that choice, just as an infant knows the difference between disobeying their parents and obeying them.

Yeah but they didn’t have free will if your god is all knowing, that’s the thing. If he’s all knowing they couldn’t do anything that he did not know they were going to do. Which brings me back to my original question. Did your god create Eden thinking everything would be peachy forever, or did he know they were going to disobey?

The first line is clearly untrue. For example, I know that if I drop a bowl of ice cream from six feet above the ground that it will fall to the ground. Did I cause that? I partially did in terms of letting it drop, but the main reason was its being subject to gravity. In other words I know about gravity and thus knew what the bowl of ice cream would do. But I didn’t cause the gravity I know about. If I were in outer space I would know that the bowl wouldn’t fall down if I let go of it, but I didn’t cause its floating in space.

Likewise, God set the wheels in motion, and knows what will happen when human beings make free will choices, but He doesn’t control those choices. He permits them if they go against His will; He doesn’t ordain them.

So to answer your very last clause: yes, He knew they would disobey but for reasons often incomprehensible to us, He thought it was worth it to let this process take place and to give every human being enough grace for salvation, provided they accept it.

For example, I know that if I drop a bowl of ice cream from six feet above the ground that it will fall to the ground. Did I cause that? I partially did in terms of letting it drop, but the main reason was its being subject to gravity.

If you also created that gravity, you’d be fully responsible for the bowl smashing. In your theology, God created the gravity (and it’s figurative equivalents), so He’s fully responsible.

Creating something and making it possible is not the same as responsibility for each act of free will that was made possible by God allowing these people to exist and to think and act freely. It’s cause in one large, broad sense, but not in the specific sense.

God, for example, gave the angels free will to follow or reject Him, just as He gave it to human beings. Satan and the demons chose to rebel, which was not His perfect will, but He did permit it (permissive will).

Who chose the properties of the fruit? A: God, because he created it. Correct?

Could that person have chosen to make the properties different, such that eating it would not cause the fall? A: Yes, because he’s omnipotent. Correct?

Did that person know before A&E decided to eat it, that the result would be A&E deciding to eat it? A: Yes, because he’s omniscient. Correct?

Where am I getting it wrong here?

That part of the story (the fruit) is symbolic (as 99.9% of thinking, educated Christians believe). It’s simply a way of expressing obedience to God vs. disobedience.

Who chose the properties of Eve? A: God, because he created Eve. Correct?

Could that person have chosen to make Eve still free willed, but more obedient? A: Yes, because he’s omnipotent. Correct?

Did that person know before Eve chose to be disobedient, that the personality he gave to Eve would result in Eve’s disobedience? A: Yes, because he’s omniscient. Correct?

So again, what am I missing here?

I think the most likely response is that you’re going to say #2 is impossible: it is logically impossible for God to have created beings with free will but who would be ‘more obedient.’ But this is both theologically and empirically not true. Empirically, humans have a range of personality types, including people who deeply respect and adhere to authority. Theologically, 2/3 of the angels didn’t rebel, so clearly there is nothing in the theology that leads us to believe that obedience to God and free will are incompatible.

Could that person have chosen to make Eve still free willed, but more obedient? A: Yes, because he’s omnipotent. Correct?

No; incorrect. Omnipotence means the power to do all that is logically possible; not absolutely everything. There are many things even an omnipotent God can’t do:

1) He can’t make a square a circle.

2) He can’t make 2 + 2 =5.

3) He can’t make the universe exist and not exist at the same time.

4) He can’t make Himself not eternal.

Etc.

A creature with free will really is free to make voluntary (not controlled) decisions. God knew the human race would rebel, and so He devised the plan that would make possible the salvation of every human being who would accept it and believe and behave accordingly. Heaven makes all the suffering we experience here worth it, because the whole perspective is changed: eternal life in heaven in bliss vs. the tiny tiny, infinitesimal time we spend here on earth.

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It’s fun pressing Christians on that point, because none are willing to admit it was a set-up. They’ll agree that their God knows everything, but then try making excuses as to why he didn’t see the Fall coming. Which is especially funny, because any parent would know that leaving unsupervised kids in a room with a tasty treat that they’ve been told not to eat will only have one possible outcome, no omniscience required.

I agree it’s fun, but for totally different reasons than you. It is humorous (though tragi-comic) to see atheists make asses and fools of themselves in their gross ignorance of biblical literary forms and exegesis. Though I admit it does get tiresome, seeing it over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over.

In any event, it does have considerable humorous and entertainment value, which I always appreciate. One can always use more good laughs.

***

The deep spiritual message is given in the first part of the quote, which is also literally true. God saw that every living human on Earth (except Noah) was doing evil, just evil, nothing but evil. This saddened Him enough that He resolved to stop it, fix it. As the story describes in clear words, His solution was to cause a local flood to wipe out some mesopotamians…and their little dogs, too. It’s a really critical part of the solution that toto has to die. And if you critics would just stop trying to find fault with it and read it for what it means, you’d see how sensible, effective, and necessary God’s regional bambi-killing solution was to stopping human evil all over the earth. Because look, when you’re rebooting the Shang Dynasty and Olmec civilizations (and everything in between) from “evil” to “good,” how else would you do it but cause a local flood in mesopotamia?

But oh, it’s possible I’m wrong about that. It may be that the clear and obvious interpretation of “the wickedness of mankind was great on the earth” really meant “the wickedness of mankind was great between the Tigris and Euphrates rivers.” Because sometimes one needs greater expertise than what I have to understand what the clear, obvious, and logical meaning of the text is.

Just curious: do you eat meat or fish or poultry?

Yep.

Your turn: just curious, do you see a moral difference between between killing an animal for food and drowning an animal because your neighbor’s immoral conduct makes you angry?

I’ll answer first, in case you think it’s an unfair question. Yep, I see a moral difference.

Yes.

Nice try. God can kill animals, just as we can kill them for food. They have no inherent right to life, and we have dominion over them. And that’s because they are on a fundamentally different level, having no rational souls and not being made in the image of God.

At the same time, as compassionate, humane human beings, we can be against cruelty and unnecessary suffering of animals (as I certainly am).

Many atheists and otherwise politically / socially liberal folks turn all this on its head: animals become more important than human beings insofar as many of them (usually rare, almost extinct ones) are protected under penalty of law, while young human beings in their mothers’ wombs are slaughtered and butchered by the millions: all being perfectly legal (just as the Nazi Holocaust was in Germany).

That’s because non-theists and their lackeys have a theory of value based on how many of something exist. Lots of human beings, so we can butcher them at will. Few rare species of animals, so they have the highest inherent value, based on their numbers, rather than absolute values set up by a God Who is over all.

God can kill animals, just as we can kill them for food.

Then I’m not sure I understand your “yes” answer. Yes implies you see a moral difference between killing an animal for food and drowning an animal because you are angry at your neighbor for their immoral conduct.

But then you spend the next paragraph arguing, essentially, that the latter is just as moral as the former. Is it perhaps the case that for humans you see killing animals for food as more moral than drowning animals out of pique, but for God, you see drowning animals out of pique to be perfectly moral? Again, I’m trying to understand your “yes” answer in the context of your next paragraph, because that next paragraph sounds more like a “no, there’s no moral difference – morally God is on just as good footing doing the drowning as we are doing the eating” than support for a “yes, eating is more moral than drowning.”

Drowning an animal is wrong because there is no reason for it. It’s wrong because its basis (anger at a neighbor) was already wrong. And because it is cruel and unnecessary. That’s why its entirely morally different from shooting a deer for food in November (hunting season here).

Full disclosure: I have never hunted an animal or shot one in my life. Never even caught a fish. I have killed flies and mosquitoes and set mouse traps (also have had mice for pets).

God has the prerogative as Creator to grant life or take it away. That applies to human beings and animals.

I don’t expect you to grasp these distinctions in Christian theology anymore than I expect atheists here to understand biblical / Hebraic anthropopathism, that I have explained over and over to no avail. It just ain’t gonna happen. Y’all are too hostile and it affects your objective reasoning ability.

And because it isn’t understood you will attempt to show that the problem lies on our end, not in your faulty understanding.

Good ol’ blameshifting, that goes back to Adam (“the woman made me do it”) and Eve (“the serpent made me do it”).

I think I do grasp the prerogative argument.

First, you agree that it would be less moral for humans to do the drowning (vs. the eating), so for humans you see a moral difference there.

Second, for God, you disagree that the drowning is at all immoral. Leave them alive, kill them instantly and painlessly, or have them suffer and die in a flood – all three options are moral (and equally moral) for God, because He created them. That’s the prerogative argument, right?

And because it isn’t understood you will attempt to show that the problem lies on our end, not in your faulty understanding.

Right now I’m trying to shore up my “faulty understanding” of why God killed bambi as part of his decision to kill hunter Bob for Bob’s wickedness. And I admit, I still don’t understand it. Even accepting God has that prerogative, why did He choose to exercise it in this case? You say “there is no reason for it” when talking about humans, but that is true of God too: there is no reason for God to have killed animals. And when you say “it is cruel and unnecessary” when talking about humans drowning animals, at a minimum the “unnecessary” bit is also true of God’s decision: He has all sorts of ways to kill humans. It was unnecessary to have used a way that also killed lots of animals.

I’m willing to accept that you hold the “God’s prerogative” view of morality. And I understand what that is. But prerogative means a right to do something, it doesn’t provide a reason for doing it. I have the prerogative to destroy all my furniture, toss it in the dumpster, paint the walls black, and play Cher’s “Do You Believe In Love” on repeat 24/7 (at decibel levels below the legal limit). But if I did that, my friends and family would rightly ask “eric, why the frak are you behaving this way? It’s crazy.” So I’m asking you, why the frak did God drown all the animals? Because it seems crazy. Even under the prerogative moral model where he has a right to do so, there is no reason to do so, no need to do it.

I would guess that He did because that is simply the result of a massive Flood (whether local, as I believe, or global). Judgment almost always (for perhaps inexplicable reasons) entails the killing of the relatively innocent. It’s not the same as damnation. If a nation is judged by God (say ancient Babylon, which was conquered by the Persians), it doesn’t follow that every human being there will go to hell as a damned soul.

Likewise, the animals didn’t rebel against God, because they are too “low” to have the ability to do so. They are amoral. But they were killed in the Flood because that’s what a Flood does (save for perhaps fish).

I guess we can imagine a scenario whereby God simply caused every human being except Noah, his wife and sons and their wives to drop dead and to thus allow the animals to live. Why didn’t He do that? I have no idea. I can ask Him (along with many other questions) if I make it to heaven.

It still remains true, as always, that an infinitely intelligent, omniscient, all-powerful Supreme Being will do many things that we find it virtually impossible or extremely difficult to understand. Atheists say this is just a cop-out that the Christian always has. I say it is simply the nature of an omniscient, all-powerful Supreme Being. We will not understand all that He does because we aren’t anywhere near His level of knowledge and wisdom.

But we can accept in faith His revelation of what He has done, and trust that He has adequate and justified reasons, based on what we do know and understand of things whereby He revealed His goodness, love, benevolence, mercy, etc. (chiefly among them Jesus’ death on the cross).

Judgment almost always (for perhaps inexplicable reasons) entails the killing of the relatively innocent.

Not for an omnipotent being it doesn’t. For such a god, collateral damage is an intentional choice, not an inevitable consequence. He meant to kill them; it’s right there in the text of verse 7. If He’d wanted to kill the humans without the animals suffering in a flood, He could’ve used his angel of death as He did in Exodus. Or something like smallpox. Or even, given He miracled some animals to come to Noah and you believe in a local flood, He could’ve instead miracled all the unpenned animals to leave the flood zone. Same basic miracle as the one in the story, just a ‘reversed direction’ version. He meant to kill them, Dave – so, why? Why cause the unnecessary suffering?

We don’t know all the fine details. See the final two paragraphs of my last reply.

So what I’ve learned of your theology is:

1. Causing a flood to kill animals in a way that makes them suffer, because you’re angry at the wickedness of humans, is immoral…if you’re human
2. The same action however is not immoral, if you’re God. Since God created all the animals, causing them unnecessary suffering is moral for him to do. It is his prerogative to cause them unnecessary suffering and kill them whenever he wants.
3. But prerogative /= reason. So saying God’s actions were not immoral is not the same as saying He had a good reason to cause those animals unnecessary suffering or really any reason at all.
4. This lack of a reason is not resolved by the bible. You resolve it theologically by premising that since God is good, just, etc. such a reason must exist, it is just unknown or unknowable.

Is that an accurate summary?

As for 1 and 2: by analogy, we have human laws against killing other people (defining “murder” in a specific way, legally, so that it is distinct from, e.g., killing in self-defense or as a policeman taking out a madman to prevent a mass murder, etc.

On the other hand, juries or judges can determine guilt and judges have the power and prerogative to pass sentence, including the death penalty (historically, but less and less now). Thus, the judge can properly proclaim such a sentence, whereas the man on the street cannot. Analogy to God and His judgment . . .

And as I have pointed out, those of your atheist and of the liberal / leftist perspective see no problem with murdering innocent, helpless babies in the womb. Yet they will howl and protest about “Bambi” being killed in Noah’s Flood.

As for 3 and 4, I speculated briefly, but conceded that we don’t know and that the Bible (as far as I know) does not specifically give us a reason.

It’s not an accurate summary insofar as you so slant it according to your hostility to the Bible, that it is unrecognizable as my view, short of me clarifying, as I just did. :-)

How should I describe those four points in a way that is not slanted? Particularly given that you’ve not objected to any of them in substance. I’ll try again.

1. It is immoral for humans to kill animals in an unnecessary flood.
2. Because of God’s prerogative, it is not immoral for him to do #1.
3. God’s prerogative to do X is not the same thing as a reason to do X.
4. The text does not discuss the reason.

I’ve tried to parse those sentences in a completely non-normative way. No judgement words in them, just flat descriptive text as best I can. So what’s incorrect about them?

That’s fair enough. I have expressed more fully my reasoning on this already. I didn’t claim to explain why He killed the animals in the Flood (except for simply noting that this is the nature of such a massive flood).

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Yet another critic unwilling to read the text for it’s plain meaning. Verse 5’s “Then the Lord saw that the wickedness of mankind was great on the earth…” doesn’t mean he saw the wickedness just then. How dense would you have to be to read it that way. It clearly means He was always and constantly aware that humans would turn wicked. The “then” is just artistic license. Artistic license I tell you!

Yes, exactly. It is anthropopathism. Believe it or not, even the ancient Hebrews had developed very sophisticated non-literal techniques of language. We’re just too stupid (or stubborn) today to take the time and make the effort to understand them. It’s what C. S. Lewis called “chronological snobbery.”

And so instead we get this comic hyper-literalism in atheist [cough] exegesis: imported directly from an anti-intellectual woodenly literal fundamentalism (the view that so many atheists used to have).

Believe it or not, even the ancient Hebrews had developed very sophisticated non-literal techniques of language

And yet, you try and force the story into a literal flood – albeit a local one. Dave if you really think this part of Genesis is the ancient Hebrews using sophisticated nonliteral writing techniques, why do that?

It’s presented in the Bible as an actual historical event (and viewed as such in the NT and by Jesus). What I wrote about is its extent, which entails understanding how biblical language is often non-literal and hyperbolic.

[see my paper, Debate: Historical Local Flood & Biblical Hyperbole [11-12-21] for my dialogue with eric about these aspects of Noah’s Flood]

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Summary: Four atheists ask many questions about God’s attributes. I answer to the best of my ability. Please pray that their eyes will be open to spiritual and theological truths.

2021-11-09T18:31:15-04:00

This is a follow-up discussion of sorts to my post, Seidensticker Folly #75: Why a Universe at All? (11-5-21). Discussion occurred on atheist JMS Pearce’s blog. Atheist abb3w was one of many who participated in that. Some of his words originally posted in the post above are transferred here, with further dialogue. His words will be in blue.

*****

As near as I can make out, physics currently answers “Why is there something rather than nothing?” with “Because having Nothing is unstable under the first two Laws of Thermodynamics, and thus tends to explode At Once into Something.” Or at least, something like that once the math gets translated back to something resembling English. In slightly greater detail…

When you have Nothing, there is zero net mass-energy. However, under the current model and to the limits of experimental measure, the total mass-energy of the universe is zero (because the mass-energy of space-time curvature has negative sign under general relativity). Thus, going from Nothing to Something doesn’t violate the First Law.

The entropy of a system is defined as some (Boltzman’s) constant multiplied by the logarithm of the the number of possible microstates of a system — that is, the number of ways it can be arranged. There is only one way to arrange Nothing; the logarithm of one is zero; therefore, Nothing has an entropy of zero. When you have Something, there are more ways it may be arranged; the logarithm is positive; therefore, the transition from the former is favorable.

When you have Nothing, there is an absence of space-time, and therefore an absence of time. Time is “what keeps everything from happening at once” as observed by an old SF writer; therefore, in its absence, such transition would tend to happen at once.

So, in short – we apparently have Something because having Nothing is thermodynamically unstable.

More philosophically, I think the answer is instead “We only infer that we have Something as a consequence of some basic premises; if we take some of those premises in Refutation instead of Affirmation, we may instead conclude that we do not have Something after all.”

This is literally nonsense. The Laws of Thermodynamics (as part of the fundamental laws of physics) deal with matter, and “nothing” is immaterial (not matter). Therefore, they don’t apply before the universe existed (i.e., do not apply to a scenario where no matter exists).

It’s just another area where science (insofar as any physicist engages in such irrational, ludicrous mythmaking) is delving into areas which science, by definition, can say nothing whatsoever about, since all physical science has to do with the study of matter.

Christians and other theists are constantly told that we can’t introduce our non-empirical, non-physical ideas into science, since this would be basic category confusion. I don’t bow to a double standard — this being the case — whereby science can suddenly proclaim upon ideas that have nothing to do with matter. It’s the same epistemological “unlawful intrusion” in reverse.

I myself don’t believe that God must be excluded from any explanation of the universe because I don’t believe that science is the sum of all knowledge. It’s materialistic science that arbitrarily demands this exclusion in questions of origins and cosmology. Very well; the materialistic scientist, by the same token, ought to stick to matter, and let the philosophers and theologians deal with immaterial spirit (i.e., categories outside of matter).

This is literally nonsense.

This is literally incomprehensible to you. The difference seems often considered philosophically significant. The Banach-Tarski sphere dissection and its philosophical dependence on the Axiom of Choice is incomprehensible to most people; nonetheless, e pur si segue.

If indeed it is merely incomprehensible to me rather than being intrinsically absurd and literally nonsensical, then please explain to me why, as a good educator teaching a non-scientist and non-philosopher. I’m all ears. You haven’t plausibly explained the thing under consideration. The above is no argument, and if I am not simply utterly ignorant on the question, it’s also technically an ad hominem fallacy.

“nothing” is immaterial (not matter)

Zero is a number.

Yes it is, and that is in the area of mathematics, which is not matter and not science (though it is a fundamental building block of same).

Also, the laws of thermodynamics are not merely about matter, but a mathematical description of information more generally.

It appears that there is great debate on this very question. Neuroscientist Peter Århem and philosopher B. I. B. Lindahl, in Århem (editor), Matter Matters?: On the Material Basis of the Cognitive Activity of Mind (1997), contend that it is a “common objection” that “an interaction between something immaterial and something material would violate the laws of thermodynamics” (p. 238).

That would come from from the currently dominant philosophical monism or materialism, as applied to one’s view of science.  So perhaps one might say that my comment would apply only to the materialist version of science that is currently quite dominant (especially among the atheist types, though there are atheist dualists, like, for instance, the philosopher David Chalmers).  

Arhem and Lindahl cite prominent philosopher of science Karl Popper as one who would argue against the above “common objection.” I found another article about that:

The philosopher Karl Popper attempted to resolve the monism-dualism problem by proposing an “interactional dualism” to explain the relationship between mind and body, subject and object, and spiritual and material manifestations of reality. Popper considered that the process of acquiring knowledge requires some degree of separation of the whole into its parts and the consideration that different levels might have different governing principles. For example, it is not possible to derive principles of animal behavior directly from the laws of quantum physics, nor is it possible to derive political theory from molecular biology. While considering that all thought has a material basis, he hesitates by considering that science cannot capture the complexity of human experience simply by applying the laws of physics. This dualism is not ontologic (referring to existence or being), but epistemologic (referring to knowledge and understanding): to understand our world, we need to fragment it into systems and subsystems, describing their interactions, and only then can we make predictions about human experience and our relationship to the world.

The scientist-philosopher Edward O. Wilson takes exception to this idea. Wilson posits that scientific advances in the human realm are accomplished when several fields of knowledge converge, or when connections can be made between them. He refers to this larger unifying principle as consilience. Wilson believes that, in the future, science will uncover the unifying principles that transcend all levels, from the molecular to the societal, and create connections between fields that are currently separate, such as psychology and molecular genetics. In other words, he believes that the roots of human behavior are in the laws of elemental particle physics and could be predicted mathematically in the same way that we can predict the movements of the planets. Wilson´s view can be described as ontologic and epistemologic monism. (Borrell-Carrio F, Suchman AL, Epstein RM. The biopsychosocial model 25 years later: principles, practice, and scientific inquiry. Annals of Family Medicine. 2004;2:576-582. Appendix 1. Clarifying Engel’s Critique of Dualism. Monism And Dualism: An Old and Unfortunate Controversy)

I think the problem for the atheist is that if he or she adopts any sort of dualism in an effort to explain origins, that they — by the same token — leave themselves wide open to God being one of these immaterial entities that are now “epistemologically” allowed. I don’t see how He can be excluded out of hand once the very notion of immaterial entities (apart from relational abstracts like the number zero or logic) are accepted.

Scientists already manage to firmly believe in quite mysterious entities such as dark matter and dark energy, which I have argued is not much different from our believing in God without ironclad proofs.

But much more generally speaking, my initial point, that thermodynamics has to do with matter, seems to be believed by lots of folks:

Thermodynamics is the branch of physics that deals with the relationships between heat and other forms of energy. . . . Thermodynamics, then, is concerned with several properties of matter; foremost among these is heat. (Jim Lucas, “What Is Thermodynamics?”, LiveScience, 5-7-15)

As Einstein showed us, light and matter and just aspects of the same thing. Matter is just frozen light. And light is matter on the move. How does one become the other? Albert Einstein’s most famous equation says that energy and matter are two sides of the same coin. . . . [E]nergy and matter are really the same thing. Completely interchangeable. (Brian Koberlein, “How Are Energy and Matter the Same?”, Universe Today: Space and Astronomy News, 11-26-14)

Nothing there about “nothing at all” as somehow part of the material universe . . .

There’s also a more philosophical but sillier response that I’ll omit for now.

You could hardly surpass the silliness you’ve already shown, but whatever . . .

It’s just another area where science (insofar as any physicist engages in such irrational, ludicrous mythmaking) is delving into areas which science, by definition, can say nothing whatsoever about, since all physical science has to do with the study of matter.

Your definition of science is artificially restricted. Science is not fundamentally rooted in the study of matter, but the study of experience; matter is a sub-topic involving something consequently inferred from experience.

As I said, if you adopt this as part of your definition, then God is not a priori excluded, since there are several arguments and experiences that are purported to be a result of His actions.

I myself don’t believe that God must be excluded from any explanation of the universe because I don’t believe that science is the sum of all knowledge.

This seems to be setting up multiple straw men.

The claim that “science is not the sum of all knowledge” seems necessary but not sufficient to your inference.

It’s beyond that; it’s self-evident.

Notably, I agree that mathematics is a branch of knowledge that is independent of (or more precisely, precursor to) empirical science.

Hence, science is not the sum of all knowledge. Thanks!

I also agree that engineering is a branch of knowledge separate from (or once more, subsequent to) science, which evaluates “ought” propositions based on some basis of partial ordering of empirical possibilities. However, the philosophical demarcations of these fields of knowledge does not preclude that the question of “Does God exist?” is one within the scope of “science”. As necessary but not sufficient, it seems less “because” and more “not despite”.

Can you rephrase those last two sentences in English?

Furthermore, it’s not that God is necessarily (“must be”) excluded; rather, it’s that God is consequently excluded; roughly the “Je n’avais pas besoin de cette hypothèse-là” that Augustus De Morgan attributed to Pierre-Simon Laplace (although Hervé Faye indicates the original may have had a different nuance, and the quote and associated anecdote may have been mere contemporary popular fabrication).

Of course, that’s simply a cynical assumption of God not being necessary. People say that about evolution, but since Origin of Species came out of the theistic mind of Charles Darwin, he obviously didn’t think God was excluded, and he had many theistic evolutionist friends, like the botanist Asa Gray.

You can talk all this technical stuff and show the impressive scope of your knowledge in various philosophical and scientific particulars, but it doesn’t amount to a hill of beans in explaining the nonsensical notion of “the universe lifted itself out of non-existence and made itself actual.” That makes no  sense, whereas the idea of an eternal immaterial Being like God, Who then creates matter and the universe, is not immediately absurd. It requires more thinking and “work” to believe but at least it’s not violently incoherent and self-contradictory (at the very least). Merely using a bunch of big words and technical ideas don’t amount to an explanation. They merely cover for the lack of a plausible one.

But this sort of obscurantism is an old technique in atheist and materialist scientific rhetoric, and unfortunately ain’t going away anytime soon.

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There are over fifty philosophical theistic arguments.

All of which depend on initial axiomatic premises that may be taken (or reached from alternative axiomatic premises) in refutation rather than affirmation, or depend on inferences of conclusions that do not follow the premises.

As usual, we must battle over axioms, which are every bit as prevalent in atheist thought (as in all thought), as in theist thinking. We all have them, and almost by definition, we hold them (usually) without any elaborate prior rationale as to why they are accepted.

But my point in context was explained by the words immediately following (which you ignore: for very good reason):

How many philosophical arguments are there that defend the notion of “the universe exists because it should” or “the universe lifted itself out of non-existence and made itself actual”?

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God is “inserted” into the equation because that makes the most sense of any of the “explanations.”

Not by the mathematical measure of “makes the most sense”.

Yeah, it plainly makes much more sense to say that “the universe lifted itself out of non-existence”.

“the universe lifted itself out of non-existence” and suchlike are not explanations at all.

Actually, it kind of is. What it’s not is a particularly good explanation — which is the major defect of “God did it”. Furthermore, it’s formally more a conclusion explained from other starting premises.

Okay; please explain it now in detail if you think it explains anything. I wanna see 1) why anyone would believe such a thing, and 2) how it works, step-by-step. I understand that it is speculation, but knock yourself out. After all, atheist think God is so nonsensical and can’t possibly be believed in by rational, educated folks (upon adequate reflection); so by all means, give us your plausible alternatives. Looking eagerly forward to this . . . 

Nohow, the disagreement seems fundamentally rooted in a philosophical disagreement about what it means for some A to “explain” or “be an explanation for” some B.

Yes. So now the usual tedious analytical philosophy can be brought to bear and become so abstract that no one notices that nothing has really been explained . . . 

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Summary: Debate with an atheist & commenter on JMS Pearce’s blog about the plausibility of a universe self-created from nothing. Yes, people actually believe this.
2021-11-09T16:22:56-04:00

Jason Engwer is a Protestant and anti-Catholic apologist, who runs the Tribalblogue site. I will be responding to several of his “anti-Mary” comments, as noted. His words will be in blue.

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Simeon’s prophecy in Luke 2:35 involves a negative assessment of Mary, not a positive one. It’s about a sword of division and judgment that will adversely affect Mary. See, especially, the use of sword imagery in Ezekiel. (combox comment, 12-14-16)

Luke 2:34-35 (RSV) and Simeon blessed them and said to Mary his mother, “Behold, this child is set for the fall and rising of many in Israel, and for a sign that is spoken against  [35] (and a sword will pierce through your own soul also), that thoughts out of many hearts may be revealed.

Many Protestant Bible commentaries express not a hint of the irrational hostility to Mary that Jason blasphemously asserts here (a prophecy originating from God that contains a supposed “negative assessment of Mary”). Here is a sampling of those with a quite different take on this passage:

Ellicott’s Commentary for English Readers The announcement of the special sorrow that was to be the Virgin Mother’s portion, comes as the sequel to “the sign that is spoken against,” the antagonism which her Son would meet with. We may find fulfilments of it when the men of Nazareth sought to throw Him from the brow of their hill (Luke 4:29); . . . when she stood by the cross, and heard the blasphemies and revilings of the priests and people (John 19:26).

Expositor’s Greek Testament καὶ σοῦ, singles out the mother for a special share in the sorrow connected with the tragic career of one destined to be much spoken against (ἀντιλεγόμενον); this inevitable because of a mother’s intense love. Mary’s sorrow is compared vividly to a sword (ῥομφαία here and in Revelation 1:16, and in Sept[30], Zechariah 13:7) passing through her soul. It is a figure strong enough to cover the bitterest experiences of the Mater Dolorosa, . . .

Barnes’ Notes on the Bible  The sufferings and death of thy Son shall deeply afflict thy soul. And if Mary had not been thus forewarned and sustained by strong faith, she could not have borne the trials which came upon her Son; but God prepared her for it, and the holy mother of the dying Saviour was sustained.

That the thoughts … – This is connected with the preceding verse: “He shall be a sign, a conspicuous object to be spoken against, that the thoughts of many hearts may be made manifest – that is, that they “might show” how much they hated holiness. Nothing so “brings out” the feelings of sinners as to tell them of Jesus Christ.

Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges Almost from the very birth of Christ the sword began to pierce the soul of the ‘Mater Dolorosa;’ and what tongue can describe the weight of mysterious anguish which she felt as she watched the hatred and persecution which followed Jesus and saw Him die in anguish on the cross amid the execrations of all classes of those whom He came to save!

Gill’s Exposition of the Entire Bible  the sorrows she met with on account of her son: as he was a man of sorrows, so was she a woman of sorrows, from his cradle to his cross; and his sorrows, like so many darts, or javelins, rebounded from him to her, and pierced her soul through;

Vincent’s Word Studies A sword (ῥομφαία). Strictly, a large Thracian broadsword. Used in Septuagint of the sword of Goliath (1 Samuel 17:51). A figure of Mary’s pang when her son should be nailed to the cross.

John Calvin’s Commentaries This warning must have contributed greatly to fortify the mind of the holy virgin, and to prevent her from being overwhelmed with grief, when she came to those distressing struggles, which she had to undergo. . . . She was not overwhelmed with grief; but it would have required a heart of stone not to be deeply wounded: . . .

Adam Clarke’s Commentary [A]s this is a metaphor used by the most respectable Greek writers to express the most pungent sorrow, it may here refer to the anguish Mary must have felt when standing beside the cross of her tortured son: John 19:25.

John Wesley’s Notes on the Bible A sword shall pierce through thy own soul – So it did, when he suffered: particularly at his crucifixion.

Dom Bernard Orchard’s Catholic Commentary of 1953 offers particularly insightful commentary:

So far all has been on a note of joy and welcome; now there is a promise of tragedy, strife and the sword. Simeon thus gives a more complete picture of OT predictions. Note ‘is set’ (κεῖται) is pre-ordained; perhaps he has in mind such texts as Is 8:14.; 28:16; Ps 117:22; cf. Mt 21:44. Some have put 35in parenthesis for fear of attributing anything derogatory to Mary; Origen and some of the ancient commentators, thinking of Mk 3:21, interpreted the words as foretelling that she would be tempted to doubt her Son. But it seems more probable that 35applies to all the preceding; as Jesus will later say, contact with him reveals all hearts, i.e. the dispositions of soul in each one. There can be no neutrality; everyone must come to a decision. The same idea is in the Magnificat. But it is only natural that the heart of Mary will be pierced with sorrow by the opposition shown to her Son. Tongues of enemies are like a sharp sword, Ps 56:5; 63:4.

It’s probably not a coincidence that the incident of 2:48-50 and its surrounding context follow so soon after the account involving Simeon’s prophecy. 2:48-50 opens with a quotation of Mary’s inappropriate comments in verse 48, followed by Jesus’ rebuke of her in verse 49, and concludes with Luke’s comments about her ignorance in verse 50. . . . And that passage is likely intended by Luke to be an illustration of how the sword of division and judgment affected Mary. (combox comment, 12-14-16)

Luke 2:45-50 and when they did not find him, they returned to Jerusalem, seeking him. [46] After three days they found him in the temple, sitting among the teachers, listening to them and asking them questions; [47] and all who heard him were amazed at his understanding and his answers. [48] And when they saw him they were astonished; and his mother said to him, “Son, why have you treated us so? Behold, your father and I have been looking for you anxiously.” [49] And he said to them, “How is it that you sought me? Did you not know that I must be in my Father’s house?” [50] And they did not understand the saying which he spoke to them.

Jason seeks to attach blame to the Blessed Virgin Mary based on this text. I addressed the topic in my paper, Jason Engwer and a Supposedly Sinful Mary (11-16-20):

I don’t think “why have you treated us so?” is necessarily (wholly apart from theology and viewed logically and grammatically) an accusation of sinfulness on Jesus’ part at all. Mary and Joseph were simply (undeniably) perplexed, but it doesn’t follow that they were therefore accusing Jesus of sin. After all, all Christians believe that God is sinless, yet we are often perplexed by His words or actions or lack of answers to prayers, etc. None of that automatically means that we accuse God of sin.

We’re simply confused and lacking answers and full knowledge, while we accept certain mysteries in faith and the fact that God’s ways are much higher than ours. So they asked, “why have you treated us so?” They didn’t understand. And I’m sure they would have been the first to admit that they wouldn’t always fully understand God the Son.

The 1953 Catholic Commentary, edited by Dom Bernard Orchard, noted:

Mary and Joseph are also amazed. . . but Lk gives the reason in 48b: Jesus has never behaved so to Mary before. It is to be remembered that with her, as with others, Jesus had conducted himself as a normal child; his divinity was to her, as to us, an object of faith and not vision. . . . 51also throws light on the point. ‘They learnt only gradually what his Messiahship involved (cf. 2:34–35) and this is one stage in the process. From the point of view of her subsequent knowledge, Mary recognized that she and Joseph had not understood’ (Plummer ICC on 2:51).

Pope St. John Paul II offers further explanation:

Several early Fathers of the Church, who were not yet convinced of her perfect holiness, attributed imperfections or moral defects to Mary. Some recent authors have taken the same position. However, the Gospel texts cited to justify these opinions provide no basis at all for attributing a sin or even a moral imperfection to the Mother of the Redeemer.

Jesus’s reply to his mother at the age of 12: “How is it that you sought me? Did you not know that I must be in my Father’s house?” (Lk 2:49), has sometimes been interpreted as a veiled rebuke. A careful reading of the episode, however, shows that Jesus did not rebuke his mother and Joseph for seeking him, since they were responsible for looking after him.

Coming upon Jesus after an anxious search, Mary asked him only the “why” of his behaviour: “Son, why have you treated us so?” (Lk 2:48). And Jesus answers with another “why”, refraining from any rebuke and referring to the mystery of his divine sonship. (“Mary Was Free from All Personal Sin,” 6-26-96)

Regarding Mary’s alleged knowledge of what Jesus would do, Tertullian referred to “a want of evidence of His mother’s adherence to Him…their [Mary and Jesus’ brothers] unbelief is evident…they set small store on that which [Jesus] was doing within [the house in Matthew 12:46-50]…they prefer to interrupt Him, and wish to call Him away from His great work” (On The Flesh Of Christ, 7). He goes on to criticize Mary and Jesus’ brothers for “the importunity of those who would call Him away from His work”, and he goes on to remark, “When denying one’s parents in indignation [as Jesus did in Matthew 12], one does not deny their existence, but censures their faults….in the abjured mother there is a figure of the synagogue, as well as of the Jews in the unbelieving brethren. In their person Israel remained outside, whilst the new disciples who kept close to Christ within, hearing and believing, represented the Church, which He called mother in a preferable sense and a worthier brotherhood, with the repudiation of the carnal relationship” (ibid.). (combox comment, 12-14-16)

Matthew 12:46-50 While he was still speaking to the people, behold, his mother and his brothers stood outside, asking to speak to him. [48] But he replied to the man who told him, “Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?” [49] And stretching out his hand toward his disciples, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers! [50] For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother, and sister, and mother.”

I dealt with this in my paper, “Who is My Mother?”: Beginning of “Familial Church”. Here is the gist of my argument:

James Spencer Northcote comments on these passages:

We are quite at liberty to imagine, if we like, that Our Lord, after uttering the words which the Evangelists have recorded, rose up and proceeded to grant His Mother the interview she had asked for; there would be nothing at all strange in such a supposition; on the contrary, it is more possible than not; but it is not certain. All that we are told is that He answered the interruption in these words, “Who is My mother and My brethren? And then looking round about on them who sat about Him, He saith, Behold My mother and My brethren. For whosoever shall do the will of God, he is My brother, and My sister, and mother.”

I need not say that these words were not really an answer sent to His mother and brethren, but rather a lesson of instruction addressed to those “who sat about Him;” nor can it be necessary to point out to anyone who is familiar with the Gospels, how common a thing it was with our Blessed Lord to direct His answers not so much to the questions that had been put forward, as to the inward thoughts and motives of those who put them; how sometimes He set aside the question altogether as though he had not heard it, yet proceeded to make it the occasion of imparting some general lesson which it suggested. This is precisely what He does now.

Jesus took this opportunity to show that He regarded all of His followers (in what would become the Christian Church) as family. Similarly, He told His disciples, “I have called you friends” (Jn 15:15). It doesn’t follow that this is “a rebuff of this kin” (i.e., his immediate family). He simply moved from literal talk of families to a larger conception and vision of families as those who do “the will of God.” Thus, Jesus habitually used “brethren” to describe those who were not His immediate family [I cite Matthew 5:47; 23:8; 25:40; 28:10; Luke 22:32; John 20:17] . . .

It’s not a rebuff of His mother and father and half-brothers and/or cousins . . .; it’s simply the beginning of the Body of Christ, and the Christian Church being regarded as one large, extended family.

There is nothing in this passage to suggest unbelief of the “brothers”; let alone His mother (though there is data about the cousins’ / half-brothers’ unbelief in other passages). All it says is that they wanted to see Him. How is that unbelief? Nor is it a rebuke, as explained. So Tertullian starts with unwarranted false premises and goes on to even worse false conclusions based on them.

John Chrysostom repeatedly accuses Mary of a variety of sins, and he doesn’t seem to think she was as knowledgeable as John Mark Reynolds claims:

“For in fact that which she [Mary] had essayed to do [in Matthew 12:46-50], was of superfluous vanity; in that she wanted to show the people that she hath power and authority over her Son, imagining not as yet anything great concerning Him; whence also her unseasonable approach. See at all events both her self-confidence and theirs.” (Homilies On Matthew, 44)

“For where parents cause no impediment or hindrance in things belonging to God, it is our bounden duty to give way to them, and there is great danger in not doing so; but when they require anything unseasonably, and cause hindrance in any spiritual matter, it is unsafe to obey. And therefore He answered thus in this place, and again elsewhere, ‘Who is My mother, and who are My brethren?’ [Matthew 12:48], because they did not yet think rightly of Him; and she, because she had borne Him, claimed, according to the custom of other mothers, to direct Him in all things, when she ought to have reverenced and worshiped Him. This then was the reason why He answered as He did on that occasion….And so this was a reason why He rebuked her on that occasion, saying, ‘Woman, what have I to do with thee?’ [John 2:4] instructing her for the future not to do the like; because, though He was careful to honor His mother, yet He cared much for the salvation of her soul” (Homilies On John, 21). (combox comment, 12-14-16)

Once again, there appears to be nothing in the text to suggest all of these nefarious supposed intentions or motivations of Mary. Once Jesus’ reply is properly exegeted in light of His similar behavior and utterances elsewhere, it is readily seen to not be a rebuke at all. If it’s not a rebuke, then there is no implied sin on Mary’s part, since her alleged “sin” — in the minds of these critics — seems to be predicated upon Jesus’ reply being a censure or rebuke.

As for John 2:4, this was not a rebuke, either, as Catholic apologist Jimmy Akin has ably explained.

I note also that no Church father, in the Catholic system of belief, is believed to be infallible. That’s reserved for Scripture and what is authoritatively taught by the Church at the highest levels (by popes and ecumenical councils in union with him). A Church father being incorrect, even on a matter as important as this, is no disproof whatsoever of Catholicism. It’s not even an inconsistency.

Even Jason concedes — at least in part — concerning these negative comments of some Church fathers towards Mary: “they’re more critical of Mary than I am. I agree with them that she’s a sinner, that passages like Matthew 12:46-50 and Luke 2:35 reflect negatively on her, etc., but I think some of the fathers sometimes were overly critical of her”. (combox comment, 12-14-16)

Athanasius refers to how sinfulness dominated mankind before the coming of Christ. He mentions Mary in passing, but not as somebody who was sinless. Rather, he cites Jeremiah and John the Baptist as examples of individuals who were delivered from sin in the womb. He doesn’t seem to think that Mary was sinless before Jesus’ incarnation: . . . [cites Four Discourses Against The Arians, 3:33] (More Early Sources On Whether Mary Was Sinless, 6-13-16)

This is similar to Martin Luther’s position later in his life on Mary’s immaculate conception (what I have described as “immaculate purification”). But note that since this sinlessness would begin at the moment Jesus was conceived (taking Jason’s description at face value), then Mary would have been sinless from that moment (which would include all of the biblical accounts describing her, including the Annunciation: by which time she was sinless, having conceived the Incarnate Son of God.

John Chrysostom:

“And moreover, none of these, not even His mother nor His brethren, knew Him as they ought; for after His many miracles, the Evangelist says of His brethren, ‘For neither did His brethren believe in Him.’ [John 7:5]” (Homilies On John, 22:1). (More Early Sources On Whether Mary Was Sinless, 6-13-16)

Mary was not one of Jesus’ “brethren” but rather, His mother. The Bible never states that she in particular did not believe in Him or His mission. To the contrary, from the beginning, she knew exactly Who He was (see my paper, Mary’s Knowledge About Jesus’ Divinity), and the Bible never gives the slightest hint that she wavered from this revealed knowledge. If she had, surely that would have been made clear, as the Bible never shrinks from revealing faults of even the most eminent people (Moses, Paul, Peter, David, Noah, etc.).

St. John Henry Cardinal Newman made several penetrating comments on the question of the Church fathers, tradition, and development of the doctrine of a sinless and immaculate Mary:

You will ask perhaps, ’Why then was there so much controversy about the doctrine or about its definition?’ . . . I do not see any difficulty in the matter. From the beginning of the Church even good and holy men have got involved in controversies of words. . . . The devotion to her has gradually and slowly extended through the Church; the doctrine about her being always the same from the first. But the gradual growth of the devotion was a cause why that doctrine, in spite of its having been from the first, should have been but slowly recognised, slowly defined. . . . ’The new devotion was first heard of in the ninth century.’ Suppose I say, ’The new doctrine of our Lord’s immensity, contradicted by all the Ante-nicene Fathers, was first heard of in the creed of St Athanasius?’ or ’The Filioque, protested against by the Orthodox Church to this day, was first heard of in the 7th Century?’ Whatever principle is adduced to explain the latter statement will avail for the first. . . . The Holy Ghost’s eternity is involved in His divinity; the Blessed Virgin’s immaculateness in her conception is involved in the general declarations of the Fathers about her sinlessness. If all Catholics have not seen this at once, we must recollect that there were at first mistakes among pious and holy men about the attributes of the Holy Spirit. . . . I fully grant that there is not that formal documentary evidence for the doctrine in question which there is for some other doctrines, but I maintain also that, from its character, it does not require it. (Letters & Diaries xix; To Arthur Osborne Alleyne, 15 June 1860)

[A]s to the antiquity of the doctrine. In the first ages original sin was not. formally spoken of in contrast to actual. In the fourth century, Pelagius denied it, and was refuted and denounced by St Augustine. Not till the time of St Augustine could the question be mooted precisely whether our Lady was without original sin or not. Up to his time, and after his time, it was usual to say or to imply that Mary had nothing to do with sin, in vague terms. The earliest Fathers, St Justin, St Irenaeus etc. contrast her with Eve, while they contrast our Lord with Adam. In doing this – 1. they, sometimes imply, sometimes insist upon, the point that Eve sinned when tried, and Mary did not sin when tried; and 2. they say that, by not sinning, Mary had a real part in the work of redemption, in a way in which no other creature had a share. This does not go so far as actually to pronounce that she had the grace of God from the first moment of her existence, and never was under the power of original sin, but by comparing her with Eve, who was created of course without original sin, and by giving her so high an office, it implies it. Next, shortly after St Augustine, the 3rd General Council was held against Nestorius, and declared Mary to be the Mother of God. From this time the language of the Fathers is very strong, though vague, about her immaculateness. In the time of Mahomet the precise doctrine seems to have been taught in the East, for I think he mentions it in the Koran. In the middle ages, when everything was subjected to rigid examination of a reasoning character, the question was raised whether the doctrine was consistent with the Blessed Virgin’s having a human father and mother – and serious objections were felt to it on this score. Men defined the words ’Immaculate Conception’ differently from what I have done above, and in consequence denied it. St Bernard and St Thomas, in this way, were opposed to it, and the Dominicans. A long controversy ensued and a hot one – it lasted many centuries. At length, in our time, it has been defined in that sense in which I have explained the words above – a sense, which St Bernard, St Thomas, and the Dominicans did not deny. The same controversy about the sense of a word had occurred in the instance of the first General Council at Nicaea. The Nicene Creed uses the word ’Consubstantial’ to protect the doctrine of our Lord’s divinity against Arius, which the great Council of Antioch some 70 years before had repudiated as a symbol of heresy. In like manner great Saints have repudiated the words ’Immaculate Conception,’ from taking them in a different sense from that which the Church has accepted and sanctioned. (Letters & Diaries xxii; To Lady Chatterton, 2 Oct. 1865)

This is what is often called development of doctrine. It is no where said e.g., by the early Fathers, that Mary was without sin – but they do say that she is the second Eve, and that also she is the contrary to Eve in not having fallen; from which the Church, under the gift of infallibility, deduces her sinlessness. And this deduction nevertheless might not seem necessary to Catholic believers on the first blush of the matter . . . (Letters & Diaries xxvii, 84; Letter to J. H. Willis Nevins, 25 June 1874)

Related Reading

“All Have Sinned” vs. a Sinless, Immaculate Mary? [1996; revised and posted at National Catholic Register on 12-11-17]
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Why Would a Sinless Mary Offer Sacrifices? (vs. Matt Slick) [10-29-20]
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Practical Matters: if any of my 3,850+ free online articles and 50 books have helped you (by God’s grace) to decide to become Catholic or to return to the Church, or better understand some doctrines and why we believe them, and/or if you believe my work is worthy to support for the purpose of apologetics and evangelism in general, please seriously consider a much-needed financial contribution. 1 December 2021 will be my 20th anniversary as a full-time Catholic apologist, and February 2022, the 25th anniversary of my blog.
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Photo credit: Jjensen (8-23-08). Icon from the Mégalo Metéoron Monastery in Greece, representing the First Ecumenical Council of Nicaea in 325 A.D., with the condemned Arius in the bottom of the icon. [Wikimedia Commons / Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike 3.0 Unported license]
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Summary: I examine several biblical passages used by Jason Engwer & Church fathers Tertullian, Chrysostom, & Athanasius to opine on the question of “was Mary sinless?”
2021-10-17T23:41:32-04:00

Former Christian Dr. David Nicholls wrote his deconversion story, entitled, Real Deconversion Story #19 – David N. (10-15-21). His words will be in green. I responded to one particular claim of his, and then PsiCop picked it up from there and counter-replied to my comment. His words will be in blue.

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I lost count of how many Christians I met who presented a sickly-sweet, caring facade that suddenly disappeared once they realized their faith was being challenged, and their initial demeanour was swiftly replaced with fierce hostility and resentment.

I imagine many unbelievers who have attempted to have a meaningful exchange with Christians on the internet have witnessed this disagreeable phenomenon. Such hostility by Christians is not only apparent if their beliefs are challenged, but is also demonstrated by an intolerance of anyone of whom they disapprove.

I respectfully submit that this is not a peculiar characteristic of Christians, but of all human beings (and now more than ever, as the culture becomes more and more immersed in postmodernist subjectivism). The above attitudes are precisely how many people here (with very few exceptions; I hasten to add that Jonathan himself is generally kind and friendly) treat any Christian who dares dissent from the atheist “orthodoxy.” . You can look through a few threads to quickly verify this. I simply block perpetual insulters, so I don’t see most of them. I don’t have time for juvenile mud fights. Life is too short. But the insults are legion and the hostility palpable.

The exact atheist analogy to the Christian having their faith challenged is to have their deconversion story scrutinized (as to various claims made therein that can be challenged). You wouldn’t believe how angry atheists get: more than a match for any Christian anger and insecurity you observe, believe me! And that is my point: the contempt of facing critique is very much a human characteristic: that cuts across all social groups, and it is unfair to pin that solely on Christians, or to act as if they are uniquely sensitive, thin-skinned, and defensive when critiqued.

Other atheists simply ignore any critiques. I’ve gone through that routine literally 144 times, with Bob Seidensticker (74 times), Dr. David Madison (46 times), and John Loftus (24 times): all very active online, criticizing Christianity and the Bible in a polemical and mocking fashion on a daily basis. But question anything they assert, and they flee to the hills, while sending a few pointed insults on their way up the hill . . .

It’s interesting you’d defend Christians by portraying them as no different from other humans.

I did no such thing. What I stated was: “I respectfully submit that this [oversensitivity to criticism] is not a peculiar characteristic of Christians, but of all human beings.” And that is a true statement. No one could know this better than I do, as an apologist, with the experience of over 1000 dialogues with folks of almost all major worldviews.

Dr. Nicholls was trying to imply that somehow Christians as a social group are uniquely prone to being defensive when criticism is offered, and hostile, if it continues to be offered. My counter-point was that this is, in fact, a general shortcoming of all human beings, across all social groups. People are generally insecure, and this includes not liking much at all being told we are wrong, even about what we believe. Again, as an apologist by trade, I know this firsthand, with massive experience; since we defend certain things as true and critique things that we believe are wrong. People (all people, speaking generally) don’t like to be told that they are wrong.

And I would add that in the case of Christians, often their insecurity derives from insufficient training in what they believe (catechesis) and particularly an ignorance concerning why they believe what they do (rational defense of faith, or apologetics). This makes them insecure, sensitive, and/or angry, because they can’t answer sincere, valid questions, and they should be able to in many cases, or at least get the inquirer a source that can answer.

Doesn’t Christianity present itself as a life-changing, and person-changing, belief system?

Absolutely, but this almost always isn’t an instant phenomenon (like, e.g., St. Paul). It’s a lifelong process. Overall, there is much transformation in serious Christian, from what was before. Many of us have been remarkably transformed out of a life of perpetual serious sin.

Shouldn’t following that faith make Christians less prone to hostility after being challenged, than other sorts of people? If not, why not? Does Christianity not have the power to make its followers better human beings than they would be without it? It has a divine origin, does it not? Was it not founded by a deity who actually walked the earth and supposedly established it? If Christians are, in fact, better than other kinds of human beings, what makes them just as hostile to challenge as others?

It should, ideally make them respond in a more “healthy” way, yes, but this would normally require being educated properly in the faith and knowing how to defend the propositions and ideas / doctrines involved. Christians don’t magically receive all knowledge. We have to learn things just as anyone else does.

What’s more … assuming their faith is unassailably and incontrovertibly true, why would any of them actually be hostile to it being challenged? Veracity is its own defense. It makes no sense to be angry, or hostile, toward someone who challenges something that’s absolutely true. To use a different analogue … if someone were to say the earth is flat, or that division by zero is possible, no one would be “hostile” to, or angered by, a challenge to those items of common knowledge. Such people are laughable and pathetic, but they don’t arouse hostility or anger. Just dismissal as deluded cranks.

I totally agree, but again, this requires prior knowledge. This is why I marvel at atheist hostility to Christians, which we see constantly in this very forum. Y’all ought to be ecstatic that you have an opportunity to preach your views to us outsiders, but for some reason it ain’t that way at all.

If you want to insist that Christians are no different from other kinds of people when their beliefs are challenged, you’re tacitly saying their belief system itself is no different from other human belief systems.

Not at all, because here we are comparing one aspect concerning one situation to an entire worldview and the results it produces. I would say that even secular sociology verifies that Christians are different (more charitable and more happy and fulfilled), in, for example, how much charity we give compared to atheists, and in the happier marriages (and even more fulfilling sex lives) in committed Christian couples:

Seidensticker Folly #1: Atheist vs. Christian Generosity [8-12-18]

Christian Sexual Views and Support from Sociology (Discussions About Christian Sexual Morality and Marriage with Atheists) [12-8-06]

Sociology: Devout Married Christians Have Best Sex [2-29-20]

That in turn means it’s just as uncertain as all those other belief systems. And that, by extension, diminishes its presumed veracity and even undermines its claimed divine origin.

Not at all, because you already have a false premise that you are burdened with, as explained above.

I’m not sure what the point would be of challenging someone’s deconversion (or even conversion) story. A person’s personal experience is what it is, and a deconversion story is a narrative of that. Are you suggesting atheists’ deconversion stories are lies? That when, for example, they say they were religious, but then became non-religious, for whatever reasons … are you saying the events they relate never happened? That certainly is possible. It’s very possible, in fact. But, if you make it your business to challenge these deconversion stories, on what grounds can you ever claim any of them are fraudulent? Do you have direct knowledge of the life of an atheist, to the point where you can show his/her deconversion story is false? That too is certainly possible* … but I doubt you could do that with every one of them you come across.

I’ve explained the perfectly sensible, justifiable reasoning employed in the idea of a Christian critiquing an atheist deconversion story in my article: Why Do I (or How DARE I?!) Critique Deconversions?

I virtually never accuse someone of lying or being deceitful. My main critique has to do with lack of knowledge and getting facts wrong, or logical fallacies, which are very common.

What you’re going to end up doing, is calling atheists liars and frauds — and it’s hard to imagine you could do that, and back that up with evidence, in more than a tiny handful of cases. That certainly will arouse hostility in them. Why would it not? What human being would want to be called a liar by you? I wonder if your game is to run around calling atheists liars and frauds, then sit back and call yourself a “victor for Christ” for having done so. That has to be a hollow victory.

Well, this is an incorrect description of what I do. I say they were incorrect, in error, lacked knowledge, were led astray, not that they are liars and frauds. Even with the three men I mentioned, who have literally ignored scores and scores of my critiques, I don’t say they are liars or even that they are insincere. I say they are misinformed, and intellectual cowards, lacking the courage of their convictions. The demonization of everyone who disagrees with us is a child’s game and the ploy of mental midgets.

If this is your way of reaffirming your faith in Christianity — a religion you’ve earlier implied isn’t anywhere near as true, nor as divine, as you’d probably like to think it is — then all I have to say is, good luck to you. Because you need a lot more help than anyone else can give you.

Now your “conclusion” is based on two prior false premises. The entire chain is only as good as the links in it.

One last thing: You appear to believe that making atheists hostile or angry also means they’re wrong.

I never claimed such an idiotic thing. What I have repeatedly noted is that atheists get as angry as anyone else when critiqued, and that most of those even among your “champions” run from constructive criticism and want no part of that or a serious, civil dialogue. They are certainly no better than Christians in this regard, and I would say they are worse.

That, however, is not true. Whether or not someone is angry doesn’t, by itself, make anything they say or believe untrue. Angry and hostile people can be, and often are, right about lots of things. Don’t confuse hostility or anger with error. To do so is illogical.

I totally agree!

* Personal testimonies, memoirs, etc. are always questionable, whether they’re offered by atheists or others. The examples of Mike Warnke and Lee Strobel attest to that, along with many others.

That’s not my position. I accept people at their word, as sincere, short of overwhelming reason to question their credibility and truthfulness (such as hostile witnesses in courts could establish). So it looks like you are merely projecting your own cynicism about people’s own reports on their own lives onto me, where it isn’t present.

And I take this position because Christianity (particularly St. Paul in 1 Corinthians 13) commands us to believe the best of other people, not the worst.

PsiCop replied, but never really responded directly to my arguments. He became more and more harsh and accusatory (sadly: the same old story with so many atheists). Here’s the link if you want to read. Best wishes slogging through all that!

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Photo credit: Dean Drobot [public domain / Shutterstock / The Epoch Times]

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Summary: Two atheists argued that atheists are far less sensitive to criticism than Christians. I disagreed, and contended that all human beings tend to dislike criticism.

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2021-09-25T19:08:43-04:00

These took place in a combox on anti-theist atheist Jonathan Pearce’s A Tippling Philosopher blog. JMallett‘s words will be in blue, Traveller‘s in green, Geoff Benson‘s in brown, Erp‘s in purple.

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[I posted a link to a recent article of mine]: OT & Archaeology: 25 Fascinating Confirmations (“From Noah to Joshua”: the Hebrew Scripture is Extraordinarily Accurate & True to History).

Your blurb reads like a National Enquirer headline, Mr. Spam.

Thanx! If it’s spam, then I’m sure Jonathan will delete it.

Part and parcel of writing is a catchy, descriptive title. Mine is that, and I prove the confident claims in the article itself.

He’s too nice. Would you allow someone to do the same thing on your blog?

Of course. It’s on-topic. The OP claimed: “For Christians, they often start off with the idea of making the Bible say what they want it to say. This underwrites their confirmation bias.”

So I give him 25 arguments from archaeology and science; in other words, independent and external and objective confirmation of the biblical text, which isn’t circular at all.

Not that he’ll ever likely reply, but if he wants to actually seriously interact with a Christian viewpoint regarding this biblical text he is so often obsessed with, the opportunity is always there.

I would not only allow such a thing, but (gasp!!!) interact with it as well, and if it is false, roundly refute it.

Dave, why do you think your arguments are groundbreaking? Have you ever put yourself into the shoes of the Egyptians or any one of the cultures that were not Hebrew? What if you were born an Amalekite? Could your belief just be a product of your surroundings?

I made that exact argument several times in my paper above: the Hebrews drew from surrounding cultures: especially Egyptian. In King Tut’s tomb was found a box very much like the ark of the covenant. The Sinai Covenant was largely drawn in format from existing treaties that were typical of the 13th century BC but not long after, etc. I cite an Egyptologist who wrote three volumes just on that topic alone.

But you guys will never seriously interact with things like that because they are too objective and concrete. You stick with subjective mythology that no one can answer because it’s irrational and arbitrary . . .

It’s not about the seeking of truth here. It’s about making all Christians and Christianity and the Bible (by using relentless straw men) look stupid and idiotic so you can pretend that you have refuted Christianity. That game doesn’t work with me: never has and never will.

I was once a fundie, so you can stop the generalities. We all know that the Hebrews were influenced by the people around them. Yahweh was Baal and El and maybe a few others all rolled into one god. What if you were born an Amalekite? Or born into a Muslim family?

Yep; so many atheists were. I never was.

Then Romans 2 applies if you never heard or understood the gospel:

Romans 2:13-16 (RSV) For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified. [14] When Gentiles who have not the law do by nature what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. [15] They show that what the law requires is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or perhaps excuse them [16] on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.

That’s if you are ignorant. But there are also the obstinate ones who know the truth and reject it. Paul dealt with them in Romans 1:

Romans 1:21-23 for although they knew God they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking and their senseless minds were darkened. [22] Claiming to be wise, they became fools, [23] and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man or birds or animals or reptiles.

Your choice!

Still just words from a guy who thought Isaiah 42:6-7 was meant for him. Sorry, I’m waiting for a real god to speak for itself. I’ve heard enough of its heralds.

You have to have ears to hear. If you don’t, you won’t. Self-fulfilling prophecy. Jesus speaks loud and clear to those of us who are willing to listen to Him, and follow Him as disciples.

Some humans are just wired to believe.

And some are wired to believe nonsense. “A fool convinced against his will believes the same things still.”

It just means everyone is created equal is load of ……

Do you think people that were once believers but lost their faith are fools? I didn’t ask to stop believing. My faith left me.

It’s silly and simplistic to come up with one explanation for a huge class of people. There are a host of possible reasons, but as I alluded to, generally they come down to one of two broad categories: 1) obstinacy and rebellion or 2) ignorance and having been led astray by false ideas, coupled with an inadequate understanding of the Christianity they rejected, and of the apologetics whereby it can be rationally defended.

This leads to them being slim pickin’s for anti-theist atheists who know all the tricks and methods for talking Christians out of their faith. Thus, those like you who (I think) deny that mere obstinacy is the cause, would, it seems to me, be quite open and willing to have discussions with Christians, to try to be re-convinced of the rationality and superiority of Christianity.

But of course the opposite is the case in every atheist forum I have ever been to. The game is to mock and insult Christians and Christianity, so as to have a false assurance of the supposed vast superiority of atheism. If the latter were indeed the case, then y’all ought to calmly, cordially, rationally refute Christian counter-arguments, rather than merely insult Christians. That’s what people who are confident in their positions and eager to share them with others (share the joy) do. But again, we see the opposite.

Therefore, I suspect that many cases of former Christian atheists are indeed due to obstinacy and rebellion at bottom, because the insulting behavior is the manifestation of it.

But that’s just me speculating based on observation and reason. Only God knows the eternal fate of any given individual, and their heart at any moment of time.

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Science is the only tool we have for understanding reality. We can use other tools to decide how we live with that reality, but science is the only game in reality town.

Science is the only tool we have for understanding reality.

That statement is not itself science. It’s not even philosophy. It’s simply a bald statement offered without evidence.

Therefore, it must not be “reality.”

Therefore, it’s a false statement.

Ergo, science is not the only tool we have for understanding reality.

But of course this is logic, and you didn’t include that in your litmus test for fields of knowledge that lead us to reality. Is mathematics out the window, too? Science is a philosophy, of course, so you can’t exclude philosophy from the equation, either. You are viciously self-defeating here, any way you look at it.

And it’s blatantly obvious to anyone who isn’t taken in by the epistemological ludicrosity of scientism or science only.

I’d include mathematics as science and I’d argue that logic is science. Long words and flowery phrases aren’t going to change my point.

Neither one is empirical, and both entail axioms to get off the ground. To equate them with science is a non sequitur. They are essential building blocks of science, just as philosophy is, but not the thing itself . . .

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[E]xplain [to] me then why Genesis does not mention that the Moon has mountains, Venus has phases like the Moon, Jupiter four large moons, Saturn a ring, and the Milky Way is actually formed by countless stars. The kind of stuff that can be guessed with even a very basic telescope.

Explain also why Genesis is right and not for example Hesiod’s Theogony, as this is described by some cosmological theories as the pre-Big Bang state.

Why is Genesis required to mention all those things? Where does such a notion come from? It’s not presenting itself as a science textbook.

The OT does, however, present a remarkable knowledge of germ theory in the Mosaic Law, from the 13th century BC: some 3100 years before modern science figured it out. Why? The last time I brought this up the other person got “bored” and that was the end of that pseudo-discussion. See: The Bible on Germs, Sanitation, & Infectious Diseases.

The Genesis and biblical teaching of creation ex nihilo is backed up by science: Seidensticker Folly #42: Creation “Ex Nihilo”.

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I note he is copying some of this discussion thread over to a new post on his own channel since he can’t get people to comment there.

Christians (apart from apologists like myself whose job is to refute them) care little about atheist topics. This is news to you? We’re not obsessed with views other than our own; consequently we would never get threads of 770 comments with mostly about ten people commenting over and over. It has nothing to do with trying to get comments. I’m simply recording my public dialogues for the record for future reference on my very extensive Atheism page.

But you guys love to flock together to help make everyone feel all warm and fuzzy and peachy keen about atheism, all comfy-cozy in groupthink bliss, making fun of and savagely caricaturing any outsider who dares enter your sacred bubble, and justifying and rationalizing your (quite frequent) departures from Christianity.

Those of us who converted from Protestant to Catholic went through that phase for a year or two (hobnobbing with other converts) but it was a passing phase. We all want to feel like we’re part of a group that understand us; that we can relate to. But Christians don’t engage in the massive slanderous, mud-throwing avalanches that we observe in atheist forums.

The fact that y’all feel a great need to do that indicates, I think, something important about yourselves (seems to me a great insecurity and lack of conviction). Occasionally (breath of fresh air after the noxious stench!) I observe atheists getting over this phase and no longer being obsessed with mocking and deriding Christians 24-7. They get it, and have passed on from the anti-theist fetish.

So would you have the common courtesy to note that you will be doing so, so people can choose to opt out.

Sure: I will be doing so. All of this is public material. I am all for a free and open exchange of ideas and habitually publish dialogues with everything from both sides (a thing hardly anyone does anymore). I have well over 1000 dialogues on my blog. If someone doesn’t have confidence enough in their position to have it cited on a Christian site, then I suggest they avoid me. Almost all here avoid true dialogue with me, anyway (just as you are doing right now).

Personally I’m not sure which is worst, the Scylla of extreme mythicism of some atheists or the Charybdis of Biblical literalism of some Christians (mostly non-Catholics). Neither group knows much about the field of history.

Perhaps start with a survey of the sources and methodology such as

Grabbe, Lester L. 2007. Ancient Israel: What Do We Know and How Do We Know It? London ; New York: T & T Clark.

I’m not a biblical literalist. I seek to interpret the texts the way they were intended to be interpreted, in light of things like over 200 figures of speech used in Hebrew literature (collected in a huge volume in my library).

If you’re gonna read skeptical commentaries on the Bible, also read the best in scholarship that doesn’t play fashionable theoretical games, but rather, looks at objective, verifiable, external data that backs up the Bible:

Kenneth A. Kitchen (b. 1932), On the Reliability of the Old Testament (Grand Rapids and Cambridge: William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company, 2003)

James K. Hoffmeier (b. 1951), Israel in Egypt: The Evidence for the Authenticity of the Exodus Tradition (Oxford University Press, 1996)

James K. Hoffmeier, Ancient Israel in Sinai: The Evidence for the Authenticity of the Wilderness Tradition (Oxford University Press, 2005)

If you were so confident in your position, you would already be interacting with my article above: which follows this objective methodology; rather than Jonathan’s purely subjective, arbitrary methodology, where mythical schemas imagined in people’s heads for the sake of an agenda are forced onto the Bible. But of course you don’t want to do that! You’d rather crawl over a football field of broken glass first.

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Photo credit: Kristendawn (9-25-17) [Pixabay / Pixabay License]

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Summary: I made the point (among other things) at the atheist venue, “A Tippling Philosopher” in an exchange with three atheists, that archaeology is an independent, external verification of the Bible.

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