September 20, 2022

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Lucas Banzoli is a very active Brazilian anti-Catholic polemicist, who holds to basically a Seventh-Day Adventist theology, whereby there is no such thing as a soul that consciously exists outside of a body, and no hell (soul sleep and annihilationism). This leads him to a Christology which is deficient and heterodox in terms of Christ’s human nature after His death. He has a Master’s degree in theology, a degree and postgraduate work in history, a license in letters, and is a history teacher, author of 25 books, as well as blogmaster (but now inactive) for six blogs. He’s active on YouTube.

This is my 27th refutation of articles written by Lucas Banzoli. As of yet, I haven’t received a single word in reply to any of them (or if Banzoli has replied to anything, anywhere, he certainly hasn’t informed me of it). Readers may decide for themselves why that is the case. I use RSV for the Bible passages unless otherwise indicated. Google Translate is utilized to render Lucas’ Portugese into English. His words will be in blue.

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I’m replying to Lucas’ article, “Breve refutação a dez calúnias católicas sobre a Reforma” [Brief refutation of ten Catholic slanders about the Reformation] (8-19-17).

I am writing a book on the Protestant Reformation, which I intend to have ready by the 500th anniversary of the Reformation on October 31st.

Yes; I like anniversaries, too. I prepared 55 refutations of John Calvin on the occasion of the 500th anniversary of his birth (2009), including a complete reply to Book IV of his Institutes of the Christian Religion. I have more such material in my books, Biblical Catholic Answers for John Calvin (March 2010, 388 pages), and A Biblical Critique of Calvinism (Oct. 2012, 178 pages). I’m sure he was smiling from purgatory when he found out about those “birthday gifts.” If he made it to heaven, we’ll play a few chess games and I’ll assure him it was nothing personal: simply a old-fashioned, “quaint” concern about truth and accuracy.

I was busy on the 500th anniversary of the Protestant Revolution, too, and put out two appropriate new articles and a revision:

Critique of Ten Exaggerated Claims of the “Reformation” [10-31-17]

Catholic Church vs. the Bible? Exchange w Protestant [10-31-17]

Luther on the Deaths of Zwingli, St. Thomas More, & St. John Fisher [11-30-07; expanded on 10-31-17]

I also had some fun on the next day:

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To that end, I have been reading as many books as possible on the subject for months, as I intend it to have at least one hundred bibliographic references, which is the minimum required in any serious academic work in history (this is the main reason why I have updated the blog so little lately).

I would have never suspected that, given the uniformly low quality of this article. I can see it if he was simply reading ultra-biased, bigoted anti-Catholic tripe of little scholarly value.

Here I will not argue extensively upon every point that uneducated Papists blatantly distort and lie about: which I will leave to do in depth in the book, with specific chapters referring to each issue below and many others.

Lucky for him, because I would have systematically dismantled it, just as I am going to do with his pathetic existing material now.

In this article I will only give a summary of the rebuttals to each Romanist slander or slander on the history of the Reformation, as many people have asked me to write a brief and to the point explanation of these matters. This article will be the answer to those questions.

I understand the inherent limitations of brief treatments; nevertheless, they ought not contain blatant falsehoods: a thing this article is chock-full of.

Enjoy reading, as this will probably be the only text written by someone who has actually read and studied these topics in depth, instead of just copying and pasting from other sites, as they only know how to do.

Most of my replies, as the reader will soon find out, come from exhaustive existing research of my own. If Lucas thinks my research is shoddy, too, then let him refute it. Unfortunately, he chose not to make any reply whatsoever to my previous 26 installments. I’ll be careful not to hold my breath waiting for him answer to this, because I like being alive.

Slander 1: There was a “Protestant Inquisition”, which killed more than the Catholic Inquisition.

Answer: “Protestant Inquisition” is a term that is completely absent in history books written by reputable historians or in serious academic publications.

This is untrue (on all four counts), and it took me about three minutes to discover that in a search. It turned up in a 362-page scholarly book that I have in my own library: Inquisition, by Edward Peters (University of California PressApr 14, 1989). It contains this excerpt:

The execution of Michael Servetus became the symbol of the dangers of a “Protestant Inquisition” and was used by many supporters of religious toleration as a counterpoint to the Spanish Inquisition. (text for Plate 14 [painting of Servetus]: between pages 218 and 219)

Dr. Peters was a professor of medieval history at the University of Pennsylvania and author of seven more related books about the Middle Ages and religious toleration (or lack thereof).

A bit of friendly advice to Lucas, so he won’t further embarrass himself: try not to ever make “universal negative” statements. They will come back to “bite” and haunt you every time. At least qualify it if you insist on making a sweeping claim.

Another irony is that it is fairly well-known to students of Calvin’s history (I’ve known it for over thirty years), that he was willing at one point to deliver Servetus up to the Catholic inquisition. How ironic, huh? Here is a reference to that in a Protestant source:

Calvin and Servetus corresponded for a time before the former gave up in frustration. He warned that if Servetus came to visit him in Geneva, ‘I would not let him leave alive’.

He wasn’t exaggerating. Calvin informed the Catholic Inquisition of Servetus location – they decreed that he be burned, though the lucky heretic escaped his capture. He was caught out when he came to Geneva however, where he was spotted and the local council had him arrested and sentenced to death. To give some credit to Calvin, he encouraged Servetus to repent, with no success. He also unsuccessfully lobbied for some (relative) leniency for the prisoner, suggesting beheading instead of being burned alive.

But various correspondence shows that even though Calvin didn’t sentence Servetus, he still believed it was right for him to die for his heresy. As for those who criticised his enthusiasm for Servetus’ death, Calvin revelled in their opposition – and said they were just as guilty as the heretics.

One contemporary of Calvin’s, Sebastian Castellio, said that his hands were ‘dripping with the blood of Servetus’. Even though Servetus would have probably faced death without Calvin’s help, it’s not an unfair assessment. (“The dark side of the Reformation: John Calvin and the burning of heretics”, Joseph Hartropp, Christian Today, two typos corrected)

Lucas later admits in this article:

We are not justifying the execution of Servetus, which was arguably a black and extremely regrettable stain on the history of the Reformation.

This myth was recently invented by American Catholic apologetics blogs in an attempt to assuage the Catholic Inquisition (ie, the one that existed), and “imported” by Brazilian Catholic apologetics.

Actually, I myself probably came up with the term that has circulated online, in the first draft of my book, A Biblical Defense of Catholicism: this portion completed on 3 June 1991 (portions of which would turn up online after 1996). One of my original book chapters (later discarded for a shorter book and only used online) was called “The Protestant Inquisition (‘Reformation’ Intolerance and Persecution).” Follow the link to see an archived version of the chapter, dated 17 August 2000. And of course it includes a ton of information precisely about what the title alludes to. As to the supposed “myth” of Protestant persecution, I cited well-known secularist historian Will Durant, who stated:

The principle which the Reformation had upheld in the youth of its rebellion — the right of private judgment — was as completely rejected by the Protestant leaders as by the Catholics . . . Toleration was now definitely less after the Reformation than before it. (The Reformation, [vol. 6 of 10-volume The Story of Civilization, 1967], New York: Simon & Schuster, 1957, p. 456. He was referring to the year 1555, the time of the Diet of Augsburg)

Why did I use this term? It was “turning the tables” on Protestant anti-Catholic polemicists who pretended that Protestant persecution either didn’t exist, or was far less than Catholic persecution. That is the myth here. All religious groups persecuted, as soon as they had the power to do so. And they did because it was believed that heresy was more harmful to a soul than even murder was to a body. And it had some rationale: particularly in the Old Testament, where capital punishment was used for many crimes and violations of the Mosaic Law.

I used the term in order to be provocative and to “tweak” the Protestant into understanding that there are two sides to every story, and that Protestants don’t come out totally clean on this score, either. I would prefer to let the past alone about all this, but because Protestants insist on either willful ignorance or a blatant double standard (i.e., only talking about Catholic persecution and intolerance), I document their own sordid past in this respect, too. Lucas seems intent on playing the same self-deluded game. Readers of his will be thoroughly disabused of it if they read this reply.

Lucas stated later in this article:

While hundreds of thousands of people were murdered in a variety of ways in Catholic countries purely for religious reasons, only one was in a Protestant country – and one that wasn’t even Catholic.

This is sheer nonsense: that only Servetus was a victim of Protestant intolerance. There were tens of thousands, as I substantiate immediately below:

Type “Protestant Inquisition” into any search engine and you will only find Catholic blogs . . . 

That’s not what I found. I found the above reference. I have had to spend time refuting ultra-ridiculous claims, such as in this article of mine: Catholic Inquisition Murdered “50-68 Million”? [5-23-17]: that lame-brained anti-Catholic Protestant ignoramuses crank out. On page 87 of his book, Peters states:

The best estimate is that around 3000 death sentences were carried out in Spain by Inquisitorial verdict between 1550 and 1800, a far smaller number than that in comparable secular courts.

Henry Kamen, a Fellow of the Royal Historical Society and professor of history at various universities, including the University of Wisconsin – Madison; author of The Spanish Inquisition: A Historical Revision (London and New Haven: Yale University Press, 1998; fourth revised edition, 2014), gave his professional opinion as to these estimated numbers:

Taking into account all the tribunals of Spain up to about 1530, it is unlikely that more than two thousand people were executed for heresy by the Inquisition. (p. 60)

[I]t is clear that for most of its existence that Inquisition was far from being a juggernaut of death either in intention or in capability. . . . it would seem that during the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries fewer than three people a year were executed in the whole of the Spanish monarchy from Sicily to Peru, certainly a lower rate than in any provincial court of justice in Spain or anywhere else in Europe. (p. 203)

For copiously documented facts and figures, see:  “Beyond the Myth of The Inquisition: Ours Is ‘The Golden Age’”, by Fr. Brian Van Hove, S. J., Faith and Reason (Winter, 1992).

But Lucas made the following absurd statement in another paper of his: “Catholic apologists, . . . when they speak of the Inquisition, usually only mention the death toll taken out of their heads” (Brief rebuttal to five tactics of Catholic revisionists on the Inquisition, 8-30-17).

They are not able to cite a single book other than Catholic proselytizing that defends this concept. Speak of “Protestant Inquisition” in an academic setting and you will be completely laughed at. In short, the infamous “Protestant Inquisition” is completely unknown to historians, although ubiquitous on Catholic blogs.

See Inquisition by a medieval scholar above. The “last laugh” is on Lucas. But even if I couldn’t have found the term, I certainly have found the tactics and the intolerance that the term represents. And that’s the whole point. I have massively documented Protestant intolerance (with an entire web page devoted to it).

As if the creation of the myth of the “Protestant Inquisition” were not enough, they still invented another one: that this Inquisition “killed more than the Catholic”!

That may have been the case, seeing that England was the most powerful Protestant country, and (14 years ago) I documented at least 1375 Catholic martyrs by name:

444 Irish Catholic Martyrs and Heroic Confessors: 1565-1713 [2-27-08]

Secondly, it’s rather well-known by historians also that the persecutions of witches was mostly a Protestant phenomenon. Law professor Douglas O. Linder wrote about this in 2005:

St. Augustine argues witchcraft is an impossibility . . . The late medieval Church accepted St. Augustine’s view, and hence felt little need to bother itself with tracking down witches or investigating allegations of witchcraft. . . .

The Reformation sends kill rates up . . . Over the 160 years from 1500 to 1660, Europe saw between 50,000 and 80,000 suspected witches executed.  About 80% of those killed were women.  Execution rates varied greatly by country, from a high of about 26,000 in Germany to about 10,000 in France, 1,000 in England, and only four in Ireland. (“A Brief  History of Witchcraft Persecutions before Salem”)

Jamie Doward, in an article in The Guardian, in which he cites the research of two economists, Peter Leeson and Jacob Russ of George Mason University in Virginia, observed:

The great age of witch trials, which ran between 1550 and 1700, fascinates and repels in equal measure. Over the course of a century and a half, 80,000 people were tried for witchcraft and half of them were executed, often burned alive.

And then trials disappeared almost completely.

Their appearance was all the more strange because between 900 and 1400 the Christian authorities [Catholics!] had refused to acknowledge that witches existed, let alone try someone for the crime of being one. . . .

They reach their conclusion after drawing on analyses of new data covering more than 43,000 people tried for witchcraft in 21 European countries.

The data shows that witch-hunts took off only after the Reformation in 1517, following the rapid spread of Protestantism. . . .

Germany, ground zero for the Reformation, laid claim to nearly 40% of all witchcraft prosecutions in Europe. Scotland, where different strains of Protestantism were in competition, saw the second highest level of witch-hunts, with a total of 3,563 people tried.

“In contrast, Spain, Italy, Portugal and Ireland – each of which remained a Catholic stronghold after the Reformation and never saw serious competition from Protestantism – collectively accounted for just 6% of Europeans tried for witchcraft,” Russ observes. (“Why Europe’s wars of religion put 40,000 ‘witches’ to a terrible death”, 1-6-18)

Looks like the Protestants easily beat Catholics for the most persecution deaths, since they accounted for the great majority of so-called “witch” executions, in the numbers described above, whereas Catholic Inquisition deaths were only a few thousand. No contest . . . Thus, the documented facts are the exact opposite of what Lucas pretended them to be.

In other words: Protestants created an Inquisition more deadly than the Catholic one, but since all the historians on the planet are very bad and are all in a worldwide anti-Catholic conspiracy, they only talk about the Catholic Inquisition, and it took amateur Catholic bloggers of the 21st century who have never opened a book in their lives to show the whole “truth” to the world! Yes, and Santa Claus exists.

The above information puts the lie to this slop. Protestants did precisely that. It was called “witch-hunts.”

In fact, for a Protestant Inquisition to exist, there would have to be a Protestant ecclesiastical court of that name, which would try people for the “crime” of heresy and condemn them as “heretics”. That, of course, never existed.

Who needs courts, if you whip the public up into a paranoid frenzy and have ridiculous trial rules and tactics, designed to always end up in yet another burning of some poor terrified woman.

Slander 2: Luther is to blame for the death of peasants in the “Peasants’ War”.

Slander 3: The peasants were Protestants, who only revolted because of Luther.
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I already dealt with this complex topic in an earlier reply to Lucas: “Did Luther Cause the 1525 Peasants’ Revolt? (vs. Banzoli)” [6-20-22].

Slander 4: Protestants persecuted Anabaptists.

I disposed of the lie that this didn’t happen already, too, in reply to Lucas: Protestants Executed Peaceful Anabaptists (vs. L. Banzoli) [6-20-22].

Slander 5: Evil Protestants made the “Sack of Rome” in 1527.

I totally agree that other Catholics did this, so we have no disagreement here. I’ve never seen anyone argue that it was Protestants.

Slander 6: Henry VIII was a Protestant who persecuted Catholics in England.

Answer: Nothing more false. Henry VIII was a Catholic who received the title of “Defender of the Faith” by the pope before the Schism, and who even after the Schism continued to “defend the faith” Catholic, with the same rigor as before. Both his “Ten Articles” and his “Six Articles” were entirely Catholic in essence, and provided, in addition to all the traditional Catholic doctrines of the time, the death penalty for those who rejected these doctrines, such as transubstantiation.

Sure, he was a Catholic (so were Luther and Calvin). But he certainly wasn’t anymore, however, when he divorced his wife (what St. Thomas More became a martyr for) and was willing to take an entire country with him, while he satisfied his sexual lusts and made himself head of the supposed “Anglican” church and rejected the universal headship of the pope.

That’s no kind of traditional “Catholic” (as the term had been known prior to Butcher Henry) that I am aware of. Nor was he any kind of Catholic (or moral person whatever, when he started murdering nuns and priests in the many hundreds for simply desiring to retain the same religion that was the norm in England for the previous 1000 years (often tearing their hearts out, pulling out their intestines, cutting of their limbs, etc.).

I already documented by name many of the Catholics that he murdered, above.

That is why Protestants were severely persecuted by this king and burned as heretics in heaps. Catholics were also punished, but not for heresy, but for “high treason,” that is, for denying the supremacy of the English king over the pope.

And Lucas thinks this is “Catholicism”: where a king is over a pope? It may be like Orthodoxy (which had been sullied over and over by Caesaropapism), but it was not Catholicism. Lutherans and Calvinists also went for the State-Church. But this was not the Catholic view.

Henry VIII was fully willing to murder anyone who opposed him for any reason, so I’m quite sure some Protestants were included in that sad group; but relatively few.

What Henry VIII did was not to introduce Protestantism in England, but only to detach the Catholic Church from the power of the Roman Pope, that is, to create a “national Catholicism”, where the king took the place of the Pope, but preserving the same Catholic doctrines. as before and with the same rigor.

He didn’t. Divorce was never a Catholic teaching. Soon, Anglicanism settled into the chaotic, relativistic mess that it has been ever since.

Protestantism only took place in England in the brief reign of Edward VI, then went through a setback in the following reign of “Bloody Mary”  (who restored Catholicism in communion with the Pope), and was consolidated only in the following reign, of Elizabeth I.

It’s simply a more extreme Protestantism under Elizabeth. It doesn’t follow that Henry’s new religion that he pulled out of a hat (or something else) was not Protestantism at all. I’m saying that if it clearly wasn’t Catholicism as previously defined, and not Orthodoxy, then there is only one other choice: some form of Protestantism. Oxford historian Susan Doran noted that Henry VIII accepted sola Scriptura: the Protestant “rule of faith”: and one of the two “pillars” of the so-called “Reformation”:

Although Henry rejected Martin Luther’s theology of justification by faith alone, he did accept the German reformer’s insistence upon the supremacy of Scripture. After all, the ‘Word of God’ (Leviticus 20.21) had justified the annulment of his first marriage. (“Henry VIII and the Reformation”, Discovering Sacred Texts / British Library, 9-23-19)

Attacking and then plundering and stealing hundreds of monasteries ain’t a very Catholic thing to do, either, is it? The same author noted:

Henry and his newly-appointed ‘Vice Gerent in Spiritual Affairs’, Thomas Cromwell, immediately embarked upon a programme of reform. Cromwell’s Injunctions of 1536, and 1538 attacked idolatry, pilgrimages and other ‘superstitions’. The lesser monasteries were closed in 1536 and the remaining monasteries were dissolved over the next few years. Those men and women who resisted the closures were imprisoned or hanged.

Slander 7: Catholics suffered “terrible persecution” at the hands of Elizabeth I.

Answer: This is probably the greatest of all slander. Elizabeth reigned for nearly fifty years, and only 180 Catholics were executed. That’s an average of four people executed a year, in a Kingdom that was Catholic before her. If she really wanted to kill Catholics for religious reasons, she would have carried out a real massacre, killing thousands or millions of people throughout her reign.

She actually reigned about 44 1/2 years (ironically, I am writing this on the day of the funeral of Queen Elizabeth II): (17 November 1558 – 24 March 1603). Elizabeth was arguably even more intolerant and bloodthirsty (towards Catholics) than her father, the Butcher-Tyrant Henry VIII. During her reign (17 November 1558 – 24 March 1603), there were 312 executions (most involving horrible prolonged tortures) or confessors’ deaths rotting away or starving to death in prisons for the “treasonous crime” of being Catholic. Lucas himself, in referring to the numbers of deaths in the Inquisition in a related paper, acknowledged that deaths in prison should be included in calculations:

The problem with this is that it completely disregards . .. (1) all those who died in prison, awaiting trial or after being sentenced to life imprisonment; . . . (Brief rebuttal to five tactics of Catholic revisionists on the Inquisition, 8-30-17).

Now here he is committing the very same thing that he decried if Catholics do it.

So far we have been counting Elizabeth’s English victims only. There were also about 210 Irish victims, for a grand total of 522 martyrs of the Catholic faith under “Good Queen Bess”.

Henry VIII averaged about 16 executions or horrible starving deaths of Catholics a year, after he started murdering them in 1534. Elizabeth averaged almost 12 per year for her entire 44 years and and 4 months reign. So she showed herself on average to be about 75% as savage and vicious as her illustrious father, in terms of the frequency and rate of the butchery.

Elizabeth was just getting warmed up for the real bloodbath. After 1585 it was “treason” to be a priest and to set foot in England at all. If we do the averages for 1580-1603 it comes out to 20 martyrdoms a year, which rate puts even Henry the Butcher to shame. Here are some delightful examples, from my comprehensive description of all of the English martyrs:

Blessed John Felton was taken to the Tower on 26 May 1570, where he was thrice racked. He was condemned on 4 August and executed in St. Paul’s Churchyard, London on 8 August, 1570. He was hanged but cut down alive for quartering, and his daughter bore witness that he uttered the name of Jesus once or twice when the hangman had his heart in his hand.

Blessed John Story was a member of the English Parliament in 1547. In 1560 he opposed the Bill of Supremacy , and incurred the ire of Queen Elizabeth. In August 1570, he was locked in the Tower of London and repeatedly tortured (including racking). He was hanged, drawn, and quartered at Tyburn on the 1st of June 1571.

Blessed Thomas Woodhouse was a Catholic priest who was executed at Tyburn on 19 June, 1573, being disemboweled alive.

Blessed John Nelson was a Jesuit priest, who was executed at Tyburn on February 3, 1578. He was hung and cut down alive, his heart cut out, then quartered.

Blessed Thomas Nelson was a Jesuit student who was hanged, drawn, and quartered at Tyburn on the same day of February 3, 1578.

Blessed Thomas Sherwood was hanged, drawn, and quartered at Tyburn on February 7, 1579.

St. Alexander Briant was a priest who was arrested on 28 April 1581, sent to the Tower and subjected to excruciating tortures. To the rack, starvation, and cold was added the inhuman forcing of needles under the nails. He was hanged, drawn, and quartered on 1 December 1581.

St. Edmund Campion, the famous Jesuit priest, was subjected to repeated tortures and was questioned in the presence of Elizabeth, who asked him if he acknowledged her to be the true Queen of England. He replied in the affirmative, and she offered him wealth and dignities, but on conditions which his conscience could not allow (rejection of his Catholic faith), so he was hanged, drawn, and quartered on the same day of 1 December 1581. He stated at the end of his “trial”:

In condemning us, you condemn all your own ancestors — all the ancient priests, bishops, and kings — all that was once the glory of England, the island of saints, and the most devoted child of the See of Peter. For what have we taught, however you may qualify it with the odious name of treason, that they did not uniformly teach?

St. Ralph Sherwin was a priest who was imprisoned on 4 December 1577 in the Tower of London, where he was tortured on the rack and then laid out in the snow. He was personally offered a bishopric by Elizabeth I if he forsook his Catholic faith, but he refused, so he was hanged, drawn and quartered at Tyburn on the same day as St. Edmund Campion and St. Alexander Briant.

Blessed John Slade was hanged, drawn, and quartered on 2 November 1583 at Winchester, England.

Blessed George Haydock was hanged, drawn, and quartered at Tyburn on 12 February 1584, and was still alive when he was disemboweled.

Blessed Thomas Hemerford, Blessed John Munden, and Blessed John Nutter were all priests who were hanged, drawn, and quartered at Tyburn on that same blasphemous, murderous day.

St. Richard Gwyn (or, White) was murdered by Good Queen Bess in Wrexham on 15 October 1584. When he appeared dead they cut him down, but he revived and remained conscious through the disemboweling, until his head was severed.

St. Margaret Clitherow: on Good Friday of 1586, for the crime of harboring priests, was laid out upon a sharp rock, and a door was put on top of her and loaded with an immense weight of rocks and stones. Death occurred within fifteen minutes.

This will suffice to show the pattern. Many more gory examples are in my paper where I document all this.

Catholic Bloody Mary killed many more in much less time (almost three hundred burned in just five years).

According to Eamon Duffy, Fires of Faith: Catholic England Under Mary Tudor (New Haven: Yale University Press: 2009, p. 79), she executed 283, most by burning. That’s terrible; I don’t condone it at all (as a passionate defender of religious toleration), and it was a higher rate than Elizabeth,  but the fact remains that Elizabeth’s overall totals were higher (at least 522 Catholic martyrs). If the points being made were that she was tolerant, as a good Protestant over against the wicked bloodthirsty Catholics (and/or represents a supposed typical early Protestant tolerance), they all totally fail. She was no more humane, either. Being racked, disemboweled, or having one’s heart cut out is not exactly a Sunday picnic, either.

Furthermore, in Elizabeth’s first ten full years, no one was killed, which challenges the thesis that she was out to “persecute Catholics”.

This is untrue, since at least twelve died in prison in abominable conditions up to 1568, as I documented (including six Catholic bishops and two priests). If you put someone in prison with little or no food and atrocious living conditions and they die, the one who did that murdered them (this is what the Nazis did in their camps, after all). Lucas himself acknowledged this in another paper of his, as I documented above. But it’s true that she didn’t persecute Catholics as much till 1870. The Elizabeth.org site explains why

It was only as the Catholic threat against Elizabeth from Europe heightened as the reign progressed, that the Elizabethan government had to take a harsher stance against Catholics than they had initially anticipated. Some of Elizabeth’s ministers, such as Sir Francis Walsingham, were zealously committed to the Protestant cause and wished to persecute Catholics in England, but their ambitions were always held in check by the Queen. For the first decade of the reign, the Catholics suffered little. It was not until the Papal Bull of 1570 that the situation changed.

The new pope, Pius V, did not like Elizabeth. Like all Catholics, he believed she was illegitimate, and thus had no right to the throne of England. Catholics believed that the true Queen of the land was Mary Queen of Scots. In 1570 he issued a bull “Regnans in Excelsis” (a papal document) against Elizabeth, that excommunicated her and absolved all her subjects from allegiance to her and her laws. This was a drastic step, and one that was not approved of by Philip II of Spain, or some English Catholics, who knew that this would make things difficult for Catholics in England. (“Queen Elizabeth I and Catholics”)

Lucas also noted this factor in his article. It hardly gets her off the hook or proves the imaginary fiction that Protestants never hurt a flea in those times. But at least it helps explain the increase.

[N]early all of those 180 who were killed in Elizabeth’s reign were Jesuit missionaries

There were plenty of commoners or laymen, too, as I documented. But I don’t have data about the affiliation of all the known priests.

Slander 8: Calvin gave rise to state totalitarianism in Geneva, with its regulations against dancing, drunkenness, gambling, luxury, etc.

Answer: These laws existed long before the Reformation came to Geneva. The Geneva archives of the early 16th and 15th centuries show the existence of these laws and of condemnations in function of them when Calvin and the Protestant Reformation did not yet exist, and Geneva was still a Catholic state.

I’ll take Lucas’ word for it on this issue, because it’s not my topic, anyway. But I want to quibble with one thing in this section:

[T]here was a reason why both the Catholics of old and the Protestant Calvinists maintained such regulations: the extreme immorality of the Genevans, which sometimes led to excesses of laws like these, in a desperate attempt at social control. This immorality was not created by Protestants, but rather a “cursed inheritance” left by Papists from ancient times.

This is inaccurate, and we know so for sure, because Calvin himself (as in many similar letters from Luther) told us so in a letter of 1543 (Letter #100), where he specifically states that the people who had received the “Evangel” (i.e., the Gospel, or Protestantism, from his perspective) were till quite unworthy in behavior:

We acknowledge that point of your letter to be very true, that the plague which we have in our town is a scourge of God, and we confess that we are justly punished on account of our faults and demerits. We do not doubt also, that by this mean he admonishes us to examine ourselves, to lead and draw us to repentance. Wherefore, we take in good part what you have said, that it is time for us to return to God, to ask and to obtain pardoning mercy from him. . . .

[W]e who know by his Evangel how we ought to serve and honour him, do not make strict account in our discharge of duty, so that the word of life is as if it were idle and unproductive among us. We have no wish to justify ourselves by condemning others. For in so far as it has pleased God to withdraw us out of the horrible darkness wherein we were, and to enlighten us in the knowledge of the right way of salvation, we are so much the more blamable if we are negligent in doing our duty, as it is written, “The servant knowing the will of his master, and not doing it, shall be severely punished.” (Luke xii.) So that we ought not to be astonished if our Lord should visit us twofold, on account of our ingratitude which is in us, when we do not walk as children of the light, and produce no fruit of that holy calling to which he hath called us. Moreover, he threatens that judgment shall begin at his own house; that is to say, that he will correct his servants first of all. (1 Pet. iv.) . . .

Calvin had returned to Geneva on 13 September 1541, but here he was in 1543 (probably early in that year) talking about how the Protestants there are “negligent” and guilty of “ingratitude” and “justly punished on account of our faults and demerits.” So this can’t be blamed as a “leftover” from the previous Catholicism of the town.

Slander 9: Protestants “stole” ecclesiastical property in countries that joined the Reformation, and so became rich.

Answer: First, nobody had consulted the people if they wanted to pay tribute to Rome for the maintenance of these “ecclesiastical lands”, which basically were good for nothing other than pilfering the money earned from the hard-earned and honest work of peasant workers. At that time, there were two “tithes”, that of land and that of products, and peasants had to pay the Church obligatorily (in addition to taxes to the government), and not voluntarily, as is the case today in evangelical churches. This generated poverty and popular indignation, not without reason. When Henry VIII took possession of these Church lands in England no one complained, as they reverted to the benefit of the people, since these lands were granted to nobles who allowed the poorest people to work on them.

Lucas is promulgating myths that are the exact opposite of the truth, as I have shown many times:

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The German Lutherans were already acting in this way by 1530 before Henry began his dirty work. The Holy Roman Emperor Charles V noted this at the Diet of Augsburg in 1530:
Early in July the bishops presented their complaints to the Diet of the plundering and destruction of churches, seizure of monasteries and hospitals, prohibition of Masses, and attacks on religious processions by the Protestants. When Charles called upon the Protestants to restore the property they had seized, they said that to do so would be against their consciences. Charles responded crushingly: ‘The Word of God, the Gospel, and every law civil and canonical, forbid a man to appropriate to himself the property of another.’ He said that as Emperor he had the duty of guarding the rights of all, especially those Catholics unwilling to accept Protestantism or go into exile, who should at least be allowed to remain in their homes and practice their ancestral faith, specifically the Mass; the Protestants replied that they would not tolerate the Mass . . . (Warren Carroll, The Cleaving of Christendom; from the series, A History of Christendom, Volume 4, Front Royal, Virginia: Christendom Press, 2000, 103-107)

Finally, it is a complete daydream to attribute the wealth of Protestant countries solely to the confiscation of Church lands.

It’s a known fact that the Protestants stole all of the monasteries in England and with all that land and wealth the new upper glass “gentry” commenced. Previously, the monasteries — among many other wonderful things — had been the primary welfare system for the poor in England (just as many Catholic social services thrive all around the world today). After they were stolen, no such system replaced that and the lower classes were much worse off: reduced essentially to serfdom. This is common knowledge among historians and anyone with a rudimentary knowledge of 16th century English history. See, for example, the excellent and comprehensive Wikipedia article: “Dissolution of the Monasteries”:

The dissolution of the monasteries, occasionally referred to as the suppression of the monasteries, was the set of administrative and legal processes between 1536 and 1541 by which Henry VIII disbanded monasteries, priories, convents, and friaries in England, Wales, and Ireland, expropriated their income, disposed of their assets, and provided for their former personnel and functions. Although the policy was originally envisaged as increasing the regular income of the Crown, much former monastic property was sold off to fund Henry’s military campaigns in the 1540s. He was given the authority to do this in England and Wales by the Act of Supremacy, passed by Parliament in 1534, which made him Supreme Head of the Church in England, thus separating England from papal authority, and by the First Suppression Act (1535) and the Second Suppression Act (1539). While Thomas Cromwell, Vicar-general and Vice-regent of England, is often considered the leader of the Dissolutions, he merely oversaw the project, one he had hoped to use for reform of monasteries, not closure or seizure. The Dissolution project was created by England’s Lord Chancellor Thomas Audley, and Court of Augmentations head Richard Rich.

Professor George W. Bernard argues that:

The dissolution of the monasteries in the late 1530s was one of the most revolutionary events in English history. There were nearly 900 religious houses in England, around 260 for monks, 300 for regular canons, 142 nunneries and 183 friaries; some 12,000 people in total, 4,000 monks, 3,000 canons, 3,000 friars and 2,000 nuns. If the adult male population was 500,000, that meant that one adult man in fifty was in religious orders. (“The Dissolution of the Monasteries”, History: The Journal of the Historical Association, 9 September 2011, p. 390)

This Wikipedia article has a wealth of information. I highly urge anyone who thinks Lucas’ portrayal of what happened to the monasteries in England is accurate, to read it. It’ll be a huge eye-opener. Secular historian Will Durant gave an apt summary of how a Catholic would have viewed all these sorts of scandalous events:

Your emphasis on faith as against works was ruinous . . . for a hundred years charity almost died in the centers of your victory . . . You destroyed nearly all the schools we had established, and you weakened to the verge of death the universities that the Church had created and developed. Your own leaders admit that your disruption of the faith led to a dangerous deterioration of morals both in Germany and England. . . .

You expropriated Church property to give it to the state and the rich, but you left the poor poorer than before, and added contempt to misery . . . You rejected the papacy only to exalt the state: you gave to selfish princes the right to determine the religion of their subjects . . . You divided nation against nation, and many a nation and city against itself; you wrecked the international moral checks on national powers, and created a chaos of warring national states . . . You claimed the right of private judgment, but you denied it to others as soon as you could . . . (The Reformation, ibid., 936-937)

Slander 10: Protestants are to blame for the wars of religion of those centuries.

I don’t make this argument, either. There was plenty of blame for all parties concerned with regard to the endless wars that occurred in these times.

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In summary, I’d like to cite Protestant church historian Roland Bainton, who wrote the most well-known biography of Martin Luther, Here I Stand (1950), from his book chapter, “Luther’s Attitudes on Religious Liberty”: from the book, Studies on the Reformation (Boston: Beacon Press, 1963). Bainton (1894-1984) was a congregational minister and Titus Street Professor of Ecclesiastical History at Yale University, where he taught for 42 years. He authored more than thirty books on Christianity. Here is what he thought about Luther’s views and general early Protestant intolerance:

The Protestant Reformation itself has at times been credited with the rise of religious liberty but such a statement can be made only with distinct reserve . . . The outstanding reformers of the sixteenth century were in no sense tolerant. Luther in 1530 acquiesced in the death penalty for Anabaptists and Calvin instigated the execution of Servetus, while Melanchthon applauded. The reformers can be ranged on the side of liberty only if the younger Luther be pitted against the older or the left wing of the Reformation against the right . . . The opinion of the dominant group was expressed with pithy brutality by Theodore Beza when he stigmatized religious liberty as a most diabolical dogma because it means that everyone should be left to go to hell in his own way. . . .

We may sum up Luther’s attitude to the Catholics during this period by saying that in his sober moments, at least, he objected to taking their lives. He was opposed to mob violence, would have the magistrate confine himself to the elimination of abuses, and would leave the work of positive reformation to the clergy. At the same time Luther indulged in incendiary utterances likely to inspire the very lawlessness which he deplored. . . .

By the beginning of March 1530 Luther gave his consent to the death penalty for Anabaptists, but on the ground that they were not only blasphemers, but highly seditious.

[“Seditiossimi.” BR, 1532 (end of Feb. 1530). Luther to Menius and Mykonius commending their plan to write against the Anabaptists. When the work appeared, Luther wrote a preface, WA, XXX, p. 211 f. Neither Menius nor Luther was specific as to penalties. Menius’ tract is in the Wittenberg edition of Luther’s works, Vol. 2, pp. 299b-301a (1551) ]

Those who rush into the temple and blaspheme, should, on a second offense, receive the penalty of sedition. Here blasphemy seems to constitute the sedition. [BR, 1578 (June 1, 1530) ] In August he was pleased with the rumor of the execution of Campanus. [BR, 1672 (Aug. 3, 1530) ] In The Exposition of the Eighty-second Psalm in the same year blasphemy was put on a par with sedition. [WA, XXXI, 207] Nothing was said definitely as to the punishment, but death was almost certainly intended, for Luther had long recognized it as the current penalty for blasphemy. [WA, VI, 229. Cf. Volker, p. 91 and Paulus, p. 36, note 4] A direct appeal was made to the example of Moses, who commanded blasphemers to be stoned. [WA, XXXI, 209 (1530) ] Luther was no longer deterred because the Jews persecuted the true prophets. That was no reason for not stoning the false. [WA, XXXI, 213] The executioner should dispose of unauthorized preachers even though orthodox. [WA. XXXI, 212] It is not likely that the unorthodox would fare better, however authorized.

[ . . . ]

Any doors which Luther might have left open in the second period from 1525 to 1530 were closed by Melanchthon in the memorandum of 1531. Rejection of the ministerial office was described as insufferable blasphemy, and destruction of the Church was considered sedition against the ecclesiastical order, punishable like other sedition. Luther added his assent,

for though it seems cruel to punish them with the sword, it is more cruel that they damn the ministry of the Word, have no certain teaching, and suppress the true, and thus upset society. [CR, IV, 739-740 (1531). Wappler, Inquisition, 61-62; Paulus, 41-43]

The second memorandum composed by Melanchthon and signed by Luther in 1536 is of extreme importance in making clear what was involved. The circumstance was that Philip of Hesse who steadfastly refused to go beyond banishment and imprisonment in matters of faith, invited the theologians in a number of localities to give him advice. One of the most severe among the replies was that which came from Wittenberg. In this document the Anabaptists were declared to be seditious and blasphemous, but in what did their sedition consist? The answer was: not by reason of armed revolution, but on the contrary, by reason of pacifism.. . .

This document makes it perfectly plain that the Anabaptists were revolutionary, not in the sense of physical violence, but in the sense that their program entailed a complete reorientation of Church, state and society. For this they were to be put to death.

Luther himself took the initiative in treating absence from Church as blasphemy, to be met with the threat of banishment and excommunication. [BR, 2075 (1533) ] In 1536 he had come to regard imprisonment and death as preferable to banishment, which simply spread the infection elsewhere, [BR, 3034 (June 7, 1536) ] and in 1538 he himself revised the Visitation Articles, omitting the passage which gave consideration to the weak. [WA, I, 625]

There is much, more more, including massive documentation of Luther’s own words, in my abridged (but still very lengthy) version of this article. It was written by a man who loved Martin Luther; one who had no motivation whatsoever to exaggerate or distort Luther’s views in this regard. I can relate. Luther was a huge hero of mine, too, when I was a Protestant, and I still admire several things about him (while detesting many others). Bainton was greatly saddened and disappointed to learn of these things (he could no longer believe the prevalent myths), as he wrote near the beginning of this essay:

My first study of Luther was a paper dealing with his attitude to religious liberty in 1929. It was written at a time when I felt intense resentment against him because he spoke so magnificently for liberty in the early 1520s and condoned the death penalty for Anabaptists a decade later. Having worked eight years on a biography of Luther in the 1940s, anger changed to sadness through the discovery that in this case, as often elsewhere, it is the saints who burn the saints. This essay has been thoroughly rewritten.

Non-Catholic historians and other scholars who have actually studied the period concur with this assessment. Here are two examples:

If any one still harbors the traditional prejudice that the early Protestants were more liberal, he must be undeceived. Save for a few splendid sayings of Luther, confined to the early years when he was powerless, there is hardly anything to be found among the leading reformers in favor of freedom of conscience. As soon as they had the power to persecute they did. (Preserved Smith, The Social Background of the Reformation, New York: Collier Books, 1962 [2nd part of author’s The Age of the Reformation, New York: 1920], 177)

The Reformers themselves . . . e.g., Luther, Beza, and especially Calvin, were as intolerant to dissentients as the Roman Catholic Church. (F. L. Cross  & E. A. Livingstone, editors, The Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church, Oxford: Oxford University Press, 2nd edition, 1983, 1383)

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See my web page: Protestantism: Historic Persecution & Intolerance.

***

Practical Matters: Perhaps some of my 4,000+ free online articles (the most comprehensive “one-stop” Catholic apologetics site) or fifty books have helped you (by God’s grace) to decide to become Catholic or to return to the Church, or better understand some doctrines and why we believe them.

Or you may believe my work is worthy to support for the purpose of apologetics and evangelism in general. If so, please seriously consider a much-needed financial contribution. I’m always in need of more funds: especially monthly support. “The laborer is worthy of his wages” (1 Tim 5:18, NKJV). 1 December 2021 was my 20th anniversary as a full-time Catholic apologist, and February 2022 marked the 25th anniversary of my blog.

PayPal donations are the easiest: just send to my email address: apologistdave@gmail.com. You’ll see the term “Catholic Used Book Service”, which is my old side-business. To learn about the different methods of contributing, including 100% tax deduction, etc., see my page: About Catholic Apologist Dave Armstrong / Donation InformationThanks a million from the bottom of my heart!

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Summary: Brazilian Protestant apologist Lucas Banzoli came up with ten “Catholic Slanders of the Reformation”. I refute with facts the many myths & whoppers therein.

 

September 15, 2022

Lucas Banzoli is a very active Brazilian anti-Catholic polemicist, who holds to basically a Seventh-Day Adventist theology, whereby there is no such thing as a soul that consciously exists outside of a body, and no hell (soul sleep and annihilationism). This leads him to a Christology which is deficient and heterodox in terms of Christ’s human nature after His death. He has a Master’s degree in theology, a degree and postgraduate work in history, a license in letters, and is a history teacher, author of 25 books, as well as blogmaster (but now inactive) for six blogs. He’s active on YouTube.

This is my 26th refutation of articles written by Lucas Banzoli. As of yet, I haven’t received a single word in reply to any of them (or if Banzoli has replied to anything, anywhere, he certainly hasn’t informed me of it). Readers may decide for themselves why that is the case. His words will be in blue. I use RSV for the Bible passages unless otherwise indicated. Google Translate is utilized to render Lucas’ Portugese into English.

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I’m replying to a portion of Lucas’ article, “Os Pais da Igreja e a transubstanciação – Parte 1” [The Church Fathers and Transubstantiation (Part 1)] (8-22-12).

If the substance and nature of the bread were literally transformed into the body of Christ, then Christ would be physically present in a piece of bread(!), which is clearly unfounded. This is why the Church Fathers understood Christ’s statements, that the bread was his body and the wine his blood, figuratively rather than literally. As Tertullian (160 – 220) said: [cites Against Marcion, III, 19]

Tertullian asserted that God called his body “bread”, and then did not suggest that the bread is literally the body of Christ in a physical and material sense, but that it was in a figurative sense, as he says shortly afterwards: “ …that you may understand that he gave the figure of bread to his body”. If it was a figure, then the bread was figuratively the body of Christ, not literally. On another occasion Tertullian reiterated that the bread being a body was a “figure”, and not something to be taken literally: [cites Against Marcion, IV, 40]

In other words, the bread being the body of Christ was “a figuration,” and Christ figured the body in the bread, and did not literally make it the body itself!

Okay; duly noted. Lucas has played the usual polemical anti-Catholic Protestant game of citing a few snippets out of context, with a “wishful thinking” interpretation: trying to desperately, somehow, magically transform a Catholic Church father into a proto-Protestant. Now let’s see what actual (Protestant, not Catholic) patristic scholars think about Tertullian’s eucharistic theology:

In the West the equation of the consecrated elements with the body and blood was quite straightforward . . . Tertullian regularly describes [E.g. de orat. 19; de idol. 7] the bread as ‘the Lord’s body’. The converted pagan, he remarks, [De pud. 9] ‘feeds on the richness of the Lord’s body, that is, on the eucharist’. The realism of his theology comes to light in the argument, [De res. carn. 8] . . . that . . . in the eucharist ‘the flesh feeds on Christ’s body and blood so that the soul may be filled with God’. (Early Christian Doctrines, San Francisco: Harper & Row, 1978 edition, pp. 210-211)

Occasionally these writers use language which has been held to imply that, for all its realist sound, their use of the terms ‘body’ and ‘blood’ may after all be merely symbolical. Tertullian, for example, refers [E.g. C. Marc. 3, 19; 4, 40] to the bread as ‘a figure’ (figura) of Christ’s body, and once speaks [Ibid I, 14: cf. Hippolytus, apost. trad. 32, 3] of ‘the bread by which He represents (repraesentat) His very body.’ Yet we should be cautious about interpreting such expressions in a modern fashion. According to ancient modes of thought a mysterious relationship existed between the thing symbolized and its symbol, figure or type; the symbol in some sense was the thing symbolized. Again, the verb repraesentare, in Tertullian’s vocabulary [Cf. ibid 4, 22; de monog. 10], retained its original significance of ‘to make present.’ All that his language really suggests is that, while accepting the equation of the elements with the body and blood, he remains conscious of the sacramental distinction between them. In fact, he is trying, with the aid of the concept of figura, to rationalize to himself the apparent contradiction between (a) the dogma that the elements are now Christ’s body and blood, and (b) the empirical fact that for sensation they remain bread and wine. (Ibid., 212)

Tertullian defines [De virg. vel. 9] the priestly function as one of ‘offering’ (offerre); the ‘offering of the sacrifice’ [De cult. fem. 2, 11] . . . (Ibid., p. 214)

The word he [St. Ambrose] employs (transfiguratur), as Tertullian had pointed out [C. Prax. 27, 7] long before, connotes the actual change of something from what it previously was to a fresh mode of being. (Ibid., p. 446)

During this period, as we might expect, the eucharist was regarded without question as the Christian sacrifice. (Ibid., p. 449)

Philip Schaff observed in his History of the Christian Church, Vol. 2 (§ 69. The Doctrine of the Eucharist):

Tertullian must not be understood as teaching a merely symbolical presence of Christ; for in other places he speaks, according to his general realistic turn, in almost materialistic language of an eating of the body of Christ, and extends the participation even to the body of the receiver.

[Footnote:  De Resur. Carnis, c. 8.”Caro corpore et sanguine Christi vescitur, ut et anima de Deo saginetur.” De Pudic. c. 9, he refers the fatted calf, in the parable of the prodigal son, to the Lord’s Supper, and says: “Opimitate Dominici corporis vescitur, eucharistia scilicet.” De Orat. c. 6: “Quod et corpus Christi in pane censetur,” which should probably be translated: is to be understood by the bread (not contained in the bread).]

***

Practical Matters: Perhaps some of my 4,000+ free online articles (the most comprehensive “one-stop” Catholic apologetics site) or fifty books have helped you (by God’s grace) to decide to become Catholic or to return to the Church, or better understand some doctrines and why we believe them.

Or you may believe my work is worthy to support for the purpose of apologetics and evangelism in general. If so, please seriously consider a much-needed financial contribution. I’m always in need of more funds: especially monthly support. “The laborer is worthy of his wages” (1 Tim 5:18, NKJV). 1 December 2021 was my 20th anniversary as a full-time Catholic apologist, and February 2022 marked the 25th anniversary of my blog.

PayPal donations are the easiest: just send to my email address: apologistdave@gmail.com. You’ll see the term “Catholic Used Book Service”, which is my old side-business. To learn about the different methods of contributing, including 100% tax deduction, etc., see my page: About Catholic Apologist Dave Armstrong / Donation InformationThanks a million from the bottom of my heart!

***

Photo credit: Anglican scholar J.N.D. Kelly’s classic summary of the views of the Church fathers, 1978 edition, from the Amazon book page.

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Summary: Brazilian Protestant apologist Lucas Banzoli tries to argue that Tertullian believed in a symbolic Eucharist. Anglican patristic scholar J.N.D. Kelly totally disagrees.

 

 

September 14, 2022

+ An Overview of St. John Chrysostom’s Catholic View of the Eucharistic Sacrifice

[see book and purchase information]

Lucas Banzoli is a very active Brazilian anti-Catholic polemicist, who holds to basically a Seventh-Day Adventist theology, whereby there is no such thing as a soul that consciously exists outside of a body, and no hell (soul sleep and annihilationism). This leads him to a Christology which is deficient and heterodox in terms of Christ’s human nature after His death. He has a Master’s degree in theology, a degree and postgraduate work in history, a license in letters, and is a history teacher, author of 25 books, as well as blogmaster (but now inactive) for six blogs. He’s active on YouTube.

This is my 25th refutation of articles written by Lucas Banzoli. As of yet, I haven’t received a single word in reply to any of them (or if Banzoli has replied to anything, anywhere, he certainly hasn’t informed me of it). Readers may decide for themselves why that is the case. His words will be in blue. I use RSV for the Bible passages unless otherwise indicated. Google Translate is utilized to render Lucas’ Portugese into English.

*****

I’m replying to a portion of Lucas’ article, “Os Pais da Igreja e a transubstanciação – Parte 1” [The Church Fathers and Transubstantiation (Part 1)] (8-22-12). Citations of St. John Chrysostom (in Lucas’ text and my own) are from the standard Schaff collection of the Church fathers, unless otherwise indicated.

The position adopted by Gelasius in the 5th century goes against what current popes accept on the subject. Pope Gelasius I believed that bread and wine remained like bread and wine in the same substance and nature; today’s popes claim precisely the opposite: that the bread and wine go through a process called “transubstantiation”, where the bread and wine are transformed in substance to literally become the body and blood of Christ.

Who was right? Pope Gregory I, who in the 5th century was against transubstantiation, or Pope Innocent III, who by decree instituted transubstantiation in 1215 CE? One way or the other, Catholics are not on good terms.

Both were right, because Pope Gelasius I didn’t deny it, as I proved in my paper, Did Pope Gelasius (r. 492-496) Deny Transubstantiation? [3-24-21] This article of mine was in response to Protestant apologist Matt Hedges. He never responded (in the spirit of Lucas!); and I notified him of my response in the combox under his article, as anyone can see for themselves.

John Chrysostom (349 – 407) was another who made it clear that while the bread may be called the “body of Christ”, it is not because it literally changes its nature or substance, as the nature of the bread continues in it:

Before the consecration we call it bread, but afterwards it loses the name of bread and becomes worthy to be called the Body of the Lord, although the nature of the bread remains such in it (Chrysostom, Epistle to Caesarion)

I can’t find this citation, and Lucas doesn’t adequately document it. Maybe that’s because Protestant Church historian Philip Schaff believed that the “authenticity of the letter of Chrysostom to Cæsarius is doubtful” (he cites it in footnote 90 for St. John Chrysostom, On the Priesthood, Book III, in his famous 38-volume collection of the Church fathers). So that’s impressive: Lucas provides us with one disputed alleged letter from St. John Chrysostom and expects informed readers to then believe as a result that he rejected the Real Presence and the transformation of the bread and wine into the literal Body and Blood of Jesus Christ.

Even if we take it at face value and assume for the sake of argument that it’s genuine, and intends to mean what Lucas claims it means (consubstantiation), it’s by no means a compelling proof, because of the following reasons:

[I]t is assumed wrongly that by the words “nature” and “substance” the Fathers cited, writing centuries before heresies had made accurate definition and precise terminology necessary, intended to mean what the Tridentine Fathers meant by them. This is demonstrably untrue. The words ‘substance’ and ‘nature’ are synonymous with what at Trent were called the ‘species’ or ‘accidents.’ This is surely evident (a) from the context of the various passages, where a conversion (metabolen), to use Theodoret’s word, of the bread and wine into the Body and Blood of Christ, is mentioned; (b) from the fact that they constantly and uniformly speak of such ‘nature’ and ‘substance’ as symbols; (c) from Leibnitz’ (a Protestant authority) well-known observation that the Fathers do not use these terms to express metaphysical notions. (W. R. Carson, “The Antiquity of the Doctrine of Transubstantiation”, in American Ecclesiastical Review, Dec. 1903, pp. 421-439)

The doctrine of transubstantiation, of course, developed just as all other doctrines develop. It is a particularly mysterious mystery: up there with other exceedingly complex doctrines like predestination, the two Natures of Christ, and trinitarianism (all quite difficult to express in any language whatever). Therefore, we would especially expect in this instance some imprecision and more primitive forms of language and expressions and descriptions (i.e., more than usual) in the Church fathers.

So if the Chrysostom citation is actually authentic, I submit that “nature of the bread” very likely was intended to mean (as W. R. Carson  explained above), what we now mean by “accidents” or the outward physical qualities of a thing. In other words, it still looked outwardly like bread, tasted the same, smelled the same, got moldy when old, etc., while at the same time being in essence “the Body of the Lord”: which the citation also stated.

We know beyond a doubt that St. John Chrysostom believed in the real, substantial bodily presence of Jesus in the Eucharist, from many of his statements. Fortunately for me, I had already collected them in my book pictured at the top of this article (this allowed me to go hiking in the woods today instead of laboriously looking for what turned out to be some dozen or so citations):

Oh! what a marvel! what love of God to man! He who sitteth on high with the Father is at that hour held in the hands of all, and gives Himself to those who are willing to embrace and grasp Him. (Treatise Concerning the Christian Priesthood, Book III, 4; NPNF1-9)

In that what was more precious to Him than all, even His only-begotten Son, Him He gave for us His enemies; and not only gave, but after giving, did even set Him before us as food . . . (Homily XXV on Matthew 7:28, 4; NPNF1-10)

Let us also then touch the hem of His garment, or rather, if we be willing, we have Him entire. For indeed His body is set before us now, not His garment only, but even His body; not for us to touch it only, but also to eat, and be filled. . . . much more will He not think scorn to distribute unto thee of His body. . . . That table at that time was not of silver nor that cup of gold, out of which Christ gave His disciples His own blood . . . (Homily L on Matthew 14:23-24, 3-4; NPNF1-10)

And He Himself drank of it. For lest on hearing this, they should say, What then? do we drink blood, and eat flesh? and then be perplexed (for when He began to discourse concerning these things, even at the very sayings many were offended), therefore lest they should be troubled then likewise, He first did this Himself, leading them to the calm participation of the mysteries. Therefore He Himself drank His own blood. (Homily LXXXII on Matthew 26:26-28, 1; NPNF1-10)

Look therefore, lest thou also thyself become guilty of the body and blood of Christ. They slaughtered the all-holy body, but thou receivest it in a filthy soul after such great benefits. For neither was it enough for Him to be made man, to be smitten and slaughtered, but He also commingleth Himself with us, and not by faith only, but also in very deed maketh us His body. What then ought not he to exceed in purity that hath the benefit of this sacrifice, than what sunbeam should not that hand be more pure which is to sever this flesh, the mouth that is filled with spiritual fire, the tongue that is reddened by that most awful blood? Consider with what sort of honor thou wast honored, of what sort of table thou art partaking. That which when angels behold, they tremble, and dare not so much as look up at it without awe on account of the brightness that cometh thence, with this we are fed, with this we are commingled, and we are made one body and one flesh with Christ. “Who shall declare the mighty works of the Lord, and cause all His praises to be heard?” What shepherd feeds his sheep with his own limbs? And why do I say, shepherd? There are often mothers that after the travail of birth send out their children to other women as nurses; but He endureth not to do this, but Himself feeds us with His own blood, and by all means entwines us with Himself. (Homily LXXXII on Matthew 26:26-28, 5; NPNF1-10)

Ver. 16. “The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not a communion of the Blood of Christ?” . . . Very persuasively spake he, and awfully. For what he says is this: “This which is in the cup is that which flowed from His side, and of that do we partake.” But he called it a cup of blessing, because holding it in our hands, we so exalt Him in our hymn, wondering, astonished at His unspeakable gift, blessing Him, among other things, for the pouring out of this self-same draught that we might not abide in error: and not only for the pouring it out, but also for the imparting thereof to us all. “Wherefore if thou desire blood,” saith He, “redden not the altar of idols with the slaughter of brute beasts, but My altar with My blood.” (Homily XXIV on 1 Corinthians 10:13, 3, v. 10:16;  NPNF1-12)

Let us draw nigh to Him then with fervency and with inflamed love, that we may not have to endure punishment. For in proportion to the greatness of the benefits bestowed on us, so much the more exceedingly are we chastised when we show ourselves unworthy of the bountifulness. This Body, even lying in a manger, Magi reverenced. Yea, men profane and barbarous, leaving their country and their home, both set out on a long journey, and when they came, with fear and great trembling worshipped Him. Let us, then, at least imitate those Barbarians, we who are citizens of heaven. For they indeed when they saw Him but in a manger, and in a hut, and no such thing was in sight as thou beholdest now, drew nigh with great awe; but thou beholdest Him not in the manger but on the altar, not a woman holding Him in her arms, but the priest standing by, and the Spirit with exceeding bounty hovering over the gifts set before us. Thou dost not see merely this Body itself as they did, but thou knowest also Its power, and the whole economy, and art ignorant of none of the holy things which are brought to pass by It, having been exactly initiated into all. . . . Make thy soul clean then, prepare thy mind for the reception of these mysteries. For if thou wert entrusted to carry a king’s child with the robes, the purple, and the diadem, thou wouldest cast away all things which are upon the earth. But now that it is no child of man how royal soever, but the only-begotten Son of God Himself, Whom thou receivedst; dost thou not thrill with awe, tell me, and cast away all the love of all worldly things, and have no bravery but that wherewith to adorn thyself? (Homily XXIV on 1 Corinthians 10:13, 8, v. 10:23-24;  NPNF1-12)

But what is it which He saith, “This cup is the New Covenant?” Because there was also a cup of the Old Covenant; the libations and the blood of the brute creatures. For after sacrificing, they used to receive the blood in a chalice and bowl and so pour it out. Since then instead of the blood of beasts He brought in His own Blood; lest any should be troubled on hearing this, He reminds them of that ancient sacrifice. (Homily XXVII on 1 Corinthians 11:17, 5, v. 11:25;  NPNF1-12)

Thou hast tasted the Blood of the Lord . . . having partaken of the Blood, . . . thou hast been counted worthy to touch His flesh with thy tongue. (Homily XXVII on 1 Corinthians 11:17, 6-7, v. 11:27;  NPNF1-12)

But why doth he eat judgment to himself? “Not discerning the Lord’s body:” i.e., not searching, not bearing in mind, as he ought, the greatness of the things set before him; not estimating the weight of the gift. For if thou shouldest come to know accurately Who it is that lies before thee, and Who He is that gives Himself, and to whom, thou wilt need no other argument, but this is enough for thee to use all vigilance; unless thou shouldest be altogether fallen. (Homily XXVIII on 1 Corinthians 11:28, 2, v. 11:29;  NPNF1-12)

. . . as many of us as partake of that Body and taste of that Blood, are partaking of that which is in no wise different from that Body, nor separate. Consider that we taste of that Body that sitteth above, that is adored by Angels, that is next to the Power that is incorruptible. . . . I observe many partaking of Christ’s Body lightly and just as it happens, and rather from custom and form, than consideration and understanding. . . . Consider those who partook of the sacrifices under the old Covenant, how great abstinence did they practise? How did they not conduct themselves? What did they not perform? They were always purifying themselves. And dost thou, when thou drawest nigh to a sacrifice, at which the very Angels tremble, dost thou measure the matter by the revolutions of seasons? and how shalt thou present thyself before the judgment-seat of Christ, thou who presumest upon His body with polluted hands and lips? Thou wouldest not presume to kiss a king with an unclean mouth, and the King of heaven dost thou kiss with an unclean soul? It is an outrage. (Homily III on Ephesians, v. 1:21-22;  NPNF1-13)

From the mouth that has been vouchsafed such holy Mysteries, let nothing bitter proceed. Let not the tongue that has touched the Lord’s Body utter anything offensive, let it be kept pure, let not curses be borne upon it. (Homily VI on 1 Timothy, v. 2:1-4;  NPNF1-13)

[I]t is necessary to understand the marvel of the Mysteries, what it is, why it was given, and what is the profit of the action. We become one Body, and “members of His flesh and of His bones.” ( Eph. v. 30.) Let the initiated follow what I say. In order then that we may become this not by love only, but in very deed, let us be blended into that flesh. This is effected by the food which He hath freely given us, desiring to show the love which He hath for us. On this account He hath mixed up Himself with us; He hath kneaded up His body with ours, that we might be a certain One Thing, like a body joined to a head. For this belongs to them who love strongly; this, for instance, Job implied, speaking of his servants, by whom he was beloved so exceedingly, that they desired to cleave unto his flesh. For they said, to show the strong love which they felt, “Who would give us to be satisfied with his flesh?” ( Job xxxi. 31.) Wherefore this also Christ hath done, to lead us to a closer friendship, and to show His love for us; He hath given to those who desire Him not only to see Him, but even to touch, and eat Him, and fix their teeth in His flesh, and to embrace Him, and satisfy all their love. (Homily XLVI on John, v. 6:52;  NPNF1-14)

Ver. 55. “For My flesh is true meat, and My blood is true drink.” What is that He saith? He either desireth to declare that this is the true meat which saveth the soul, or to assure them concerning what had been said, that they might not suppose the words to be a mere enigma or parable, but might know that it is by all means needful to eat the Body. (Homily XLVII on John, v. 6:55;  NPNF1-14)

Anglican patristic scholar J. N. D. Kelly explains Chrysostom’s eucharistic views:

Chrysostom . . . states [De prod. Iud. hom. 1, 6] that the priest, standing in the Lord’s place, repeats the sentence, ‘This is my body’, and its effect is to transform the elements on the altar. (Early Christian Doctrines, San Francisco: Harper & Row, 1978 edition, p. 426)

Chrysostom exploits the materialist implications of the conversion theory to the full. He speaks [In Ioh. hom. 46, 3] of eating Christ, even of burying one’s teeth in His flesh. The wine in the chalice is identically that which flowed from his pierced side. the body which the communicant receives is identically that which was scourged and nailed to the cross. [In 1 Cor. hom. 24, 1-4] Thus the elements have undergone a change, and Chrysostom describes [In prod. Iud. hom. 1, 6; in Matt. hom. 82, 5] them as being refashioned (μεταρρυθμιζειν) or transformed (μεταοκευαζειν). in the fifth century conversionist views were taken for granted by Alexandrians and Antiochenes alike. (Ibid., p. 444)

Chrysostom . . . [refers] [De sacerdot. 6, 4] to ‘the most awesome sacrifice’ . . . , and to ‘the Lord sacrificed and lying there, and the priest bending over the sacrifice and interceding’. [Ib. 3, 4] He makes the important point [In 2 Tim. hom. 2, 4] that the sacrifice now offered on the altar is identical with the one which the Lord Himself  offered at the Last Supper. He emphasizes this doctrine of the uniqueness of the sacrifice . . . [In Hebr. hom. 17, 3] . . . ‘Do we not offer sacrifice daily? . . . it has been offered once for all, as was the ancient sacrifice in the holy of holies. This is the figure of that ancient sacrifice, as indeed it was of this one; for it is the same Jesus Christ we offer always, not now one victim and later another. The victim is always the same, so that the sacrifice is one. . . . It is one and the same Christ everywhere; He is here in His entirety and there in His entirety, one unique body. Just as He is one body, not many bodies, although offered in many places, so the sacrifice is one and the same. . . . The victim Who was offered then, Who cannot be consumed, is the self-same victim we offer now. . . . We do not offer a different sacrifice, but always the same one . . .’ . . . the whole action of the eucharist takes place in the heavenly, spiritual sphere; [In Hebr. hom. 13, 1; 14, 1] the earthly celebration is showing forth of it on the terrestrial plane. (Ibid., pp. 451-452)

‘It is not in vain’, remarked [In 1 Cor. hom. 41, 4] Chrysostom, ‘that we commemorate those who have gone from us at the divine mysteries and intercede for them, entreating the Lamb Who lies before us and Who bore the sin of the world.’ (Ibid., pp. 452-453)

Protestant historian Philip Schaff, in his History of the Church, cites St. John Chrysostom: “The wise men adored Christ in the manger; we see him not in the manger, but on the altar, and should pay him still greater homage.” [Hom. 24 in I Cor.] Schaff writes generally of the period including the time of Chrysostom, in the same work: vol. 3, A.D. 311-600, rev. 5th ed., Grand Rapids, Michigan: Eerdmans, rep. 1974, originally 1910, rather dramatically backing up Catholic claims for the Church fathers of this time:

The Catholic church, both Greek and Latin, sees in the Eucharist not only a sacramentum, in which God communicates a grace to believers, but at the same time, and in fact mainly, a sacrificium, in which believers really offer to God that which is represented by the sensible elements. For this view also the church fathers laid the foundation, and it must be conceded they stand in general far more on the Greek and Roman Catholic than on the Protestant side of this question.

. . . In this view certainly, in a deep symbolical and ethical sense, Christ is offered to God the Father in every believing prayer, and above all in the holy Supper; i.e. as the sole ground of our reconciliation and acceptance . . .

But this idea in process of time became adulterated with foreign elements, and transformed into the Graeco-Roman doctrine of the sacrifice of the mass. According to this doctrine the Eucharist is an unbloody repetition of the atoning sacrifice of Christ by the priesthood for the salvation of the living and the dead; so that the body of Christ is truly and literally offered every day and every hour, and upon innumerable altars at the same time. The term mass, which properly denoted the dismissal of the congregation (missio, dismissio) at the close of the general public worship, became, after the end of the fourth century, the name for the worship of the faithful, which consisted in the celebration of the eucharistic sacrifice and the communion.

. . . We pass now to the more particular history. The ante-Nicene fathers uniformly conceived the Eucharist as a thank-offering of the church; the congregation offering the consecrated elements of bread and wine, and in them itself, to God. This view is in itself perfectly innocent, but readily leads to the doctrine of the sacrifice of the mass, as soon as the elements become identified with the body and blood of Christ, and the presence of the body comes to be materialistically taken. The germs of the Roman doctrine appear in Cyprian about the middle of the third century, in connection with his high-churchly doctrine of the clerical priesthood. Sacerdotium and sacrificium are with him correlative ideas,

. . . The doctrine of the sacrifice of the mass is much further developed in the Nicene and post-Nicene fathers, though amidst many obscurities and rhetorical extravagances, and with much wavering between symbolical and grossly realistic conceptions, until in all essential points it is brought to its settlement by Gregory the Great at the close of the sixth century.

. . . 2. It is not a new sacrifice added to that of the cross, but a daily, unbloody repetition and perpetual application of that one only sacrifice. Augustine represents it, on the one hand, as a sacramentum memoriae, a symbolical commemoration of the sacrificial death of Christ; to which of course there is no objection. But, on the other hand, he calls the celebration of the communion verissimum sacrificium of the body of Christ. The church, he says, offers (immolat) to God the sacrifice of thanks in the body of Christ, from the days of the apostles through the sure succession of the bishops down to our time. But the church at the same time offers, with Christ, herself, as the body of Christ, to God. As all are one body, so also all are together the same sacrifice. According to Chrysostom the same Christ, and the whole Christ, is everywhere offered. It is not a different sacrifice from that which the High Priest formerly offered, but we offer always the same sacrifice, or rather, we perform a memorial of this sacrifice. This last clause would decidedly favor a symbolical conception, if Chrysostom in other places had not used such strong expressions as this: “When thou seest the Lord slain, and lying there, and the priest standing at the sacrifice,” or: “Christ lies slain upon the altar.”

3. The sacrifice is the anti-type of the Mosaic sacrifice, and is related to it as substance to typical shadows. It is also especially foreshadowed by Melchizedek’s unbloody offering of bread and wine. The sacrifice of Melchizedek is therefore made of great account by Hilary, Jerome, Augustine, Chrysostom, and other church fathers, on the strength of the well-known parallel in the seventh chapter of the Epistle to the Hebrews.

. . . Cyril of Jerusalem, in his fifth and last mystagogic Catechesis, which is devoted to the consideration of the eucharistic sacrifice and the liturgical service of God, gives the following description of the eucharistic intercessions for the departed:

When the spiritual sacrifice, the unbloody service of God, is performed, we pray to God over this atoning sacrifice for the universal peace of the church, for the welfare of the world, for the emperor, for soldiers and prisoners, for the sick and afflicted, for all the poor and needy. Then we commemorate also those who sleep, the patriarchs, prophets, apostles, martyrs, that God through their prayers and their intercessions may receive our prayer; and in general we pray for all who have gone from us, since we believe that it is of the greatest help to those souls for whom the prayer is offered, while the holy sacrifice, exciting a holy awe, lies before us.

This is clearly an approach to the later idea of purgatory in the Latin church. Even St. Augustine, with Tertullian, teaches plainly, as an old tradition, that the eucharistic sacrifice, the intercessions or suffragia and alms, of the living are of benefit to the departed believers, so that the Lord deals more mercifully with them than their sins deserve. (§ 96. “The Sacrifice of the Eucharist”, pp. 503-508, 510)

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Summary: Brazilian Protestant apologist Lucas Banzoli pitifully provides one “citation” re St. John Chrysostom’s eucharistic theology, and even it is of dubious authenticity.

September 13, 2022

Lucas Banzoli is a very active Brazilian anti-Catholic polemicist, who holds to basically a Seventh-Day Adventist theology, whereby there is no such thing as a soul that consciously exists outside of a body, and no hell (soul sleep and annihilationism). This leads him to a Christology which is deficient and heterodox in terms of Christ’s human nature after His death. He has a Master’s degree in theology, a degree and postgraduate work in history, a license in letters, and is a history teacher, author of 25 books, as well as blogmaster (but now inactive) for six blogs. He’s active on YouTube.

This is my 24th refutation of articles written by Lucas Banzoli. As of yet, I haven’t received a single word in reply to any of them (or if Banzoli has replied to anything, anywhere, he certainly hasn’t informed me of it). Readers may decide for themselves why that is the case. His words will be in blue. I use RSV for the Bible passages unless otherwise indicated. Google Translate is utilized to render Lucas’ Portugese into English.

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I’m replying to Lucas’ article, “Justino Mártir sobre a Eucaristia” [Justin Martyr on the Eucharist] (April Fool’s Day, 2011). Citations of St. Justin Martyr (c. 100-c. 165) are from the standard Schaff collection of the Church fathers.

Lucas claims, citing Justin’s First Apology (65-67) and Dialogue with Trypho (41 and 117):

In his writings there are several references to the Eucharist, how it was practiced and what its meaning was. Bread and wine, which are capable of nourishing the body, also nourish souls as they are consecrated by thanksgiving. It is precisely this thanksgiving that constitutes a sacrifice pleasing to God (Dialogue with Trypho, 117). . . . 

The idea here is that in the same way that, through metabolism (“transformation”), that is, through the physiological process of digestion, absorption and incorporation of substances, bread and wine are a source of physical nourishment, by being sanctified these elements through prayer and thanksgiving have a similar effect in the spiritual realm. Justin says that they nourish our bodies, and therefore retain their chemical properties; but he asserts that by virtue of their consecration the bread and wine become more than ordinary bread and wine. This view of the Eucharist, called metabolic, seems to have been the most common at first.

The translator and editor of Apology in the Ante-Nicene Fathers series quotes Pope Gelasius I of the late fifth century: “By the sacraments we are made partakers of the divine nature, and yet the substance and nature of bread and wine do not cease to be in them…” It is not surprising that this statement of Gelasius was not included in the Denzinger… Nor does his decree (against the Manicheans) ratifying the reception of the Eucharist under both species [mentioned in The Catholic Encyclopedia, s.v. Gelasius I, pope]. On the other hand, yes, other documents from him appear.

The statement about Denzinger (Enchiridion symbolorum, or Compendium of Creeds) is simply ignorant and out to sea. It’s not required to include every utterance by every pope (nor could it possibly do so, for lack of space: that would require maybe 100 long volumes). It includes statements that are deemed to be part of the magisterium, and therefore, binding on Catholics (which is its purpose). That’s not everything; it’s selective, based on what the Church decides is magisterial.

That said, it’s not beyond argument that Pope Gelasius I opposed transubstantiation. Typically of Protestant polemical arguments from the Church fathers, a brief snippet is cited and then it’s assumed that it supports Protestantism (or opposes Catholicism). There is no depth or deeper, substantive analysis. I provided that, when I wrote at length on this issue: Did Pope Gelasius (r. 492-496) Deny Transubstantiation? [3-24-21] This article of mine was in response to Protestant apologist Matt Hedges. He never responded (in the spirit of Lucas!); and I notified him of my response in the combox under his article, as anyone can see for themselves.

As can be seen [citing Trypho, 41], Justin in no way denies, but rather affirms, that what is offered in the Eucharist is not bread and wine, although he believes that after the Eucharistic prayer these elements should not be taken for ordinary bread and wine (with the which I fully agree). . . . 

Here [Trypho, 117], as in the previous text (Dialogue with Trypho 41) it repeats that what is offered in the name of Christ is bread and wine. There is not the slightest hint of the idea of ​​repeating the Lord’s sacrifice on the cross. . . . 

What Justin says here conforms to the metabolic interpretation already mentioned. Precisely prayers and thanksgiving (which means “Eucharist”) are the valid sacrifices; the eucharist is, moreover, synaxis (gathering) and anamnesis (memory) of the passion of Christ. Nothing about the Eucharist as an “actualization” of Christ’s sacrifice; of transubstantiation, even less!

Alright. We’ve heard and noted Lucas’ opinion. Now let’s see what actual patristic scholars think of Justin’s views. J. N. D. is a very well-known Anglican church historian. Here’s what he believes:

Justin speaks [Dialogue with Trypho, 117, 1] of ‘all the sacrifices in this name which Jesus appointed to be performed, viz. in the eucharist of the bread and the cup, . . .’. Not only here but elsewhere [Ib., 41, 3] too, he identifies ‘ the bread of the eucharist, and the cup likewise of the eucharist’, with the sacrifice foretold by Malachi. (Early Christian Doctrines, HarperSanFrancisco, revised edition of 1978, p. 196)

Here are the two passages from St. Justin Martyr referred to:

Accordingly, God, anticipating all the sacrifices which we offer through this name, and which Jesus the Christ enjoined us to offer, i.e., in the Eucharist of the bread and the cup, and which are presented by Christians in all places throughout the world, bears witness that they are well-pleasing to Him. But He utterly rejects those presented by you and by those priests of yours, saying, ‘And I will not accept your sacrifices at your hands; for from the rising of the sun to its setting my name is glorified among the Gentiles (He says); but you profane it.’ Malachi 1:10-12 (Dialogue with Trypho117, 1)

Hence God speaks by the mouth of Malachi, one of the twelve [prophets], as I said before, about the sacrifices at that time presented by you: ‘I have no pleasure in you, says the Lord; and I will not accept your sacrifices at your hands: for, from the rising of the sun unto the going down of the same, My name has been glorified among the Gentiles, and in every place incense is offered to My name, and a pure offering: for My name is great among the Gentiles, says the Lord: but you profane it.’ Malachi 1:10-12 [So] He then speaks of those Gentiles, namely us, who in every place offer sacrifices to Him, i.e., the bread of the Eucharist, and also the cup of the Eucharist, affirming both that we glorify His name, and that you profane [it]. (Dialogue with Trypho41, 3)

Kelly continues his lengthy commentary on Justin’s views:

It was natural for early Christians to think of the eucharist as a sacrifice. The fulfilment of prophecy demanded a solemn Christian offering, and the rite itself was wrapped in the sacrificial atmosphere with which our Lord invested the Last Supper. The words of institution, ‘Do this’, must have been charged with sacrificial overtones for second-century ears; Justin at any rate understood [1 apol. 66, 3; cf. dial. 41, 1] them to mean, ‘Offer this’. . . . Justin . . . makes it plain [Dial. 41, 3] that the bread and wine themselves were the ‘pure offering’ foretold by Malachi. Even if he holds [Ib., 117, 2] that ‘prayers and thanksgivings’ are the only God-pleasing sacrifices, we must remember that he uses [1 apol. 65, 3-5] the term ‘thanksgiving’ as technically equivalent to ‘the eucharistized bread and wine’. The bread and wine, moreover, are offered ‘for a memorial of the passion’, a phrase which in view of his identification of them with the Lord’s body and blood implies much more than an act of purely spiritual recollection. Altogether it would seem that, while his language is not fully explicit, Justin is feeling his way to the conception of the eucharist as the offering of the Saviour’s passion. (Kelly, ibid., pp. 196-197)

Justin actually refers to the change [cites 1 apol. 66, 2] . . . Like Justin, too, he [St. Irenaeus] seems to postulate a change . . . (p. 198)

Here are the passages in Justin Martyr that Kelly cites in the above two portions of his book:

And this food is called among us Εὐχαριστία [the Eucharist], of which no one is allowed to partake but the man who believes that the things which we teach are true, and who has been washed with the washing that is for the remission of sins, and unto regeneration, and who is so living as Christ has enjoined. For not as common bread and common drink do we receive these; but in like manner as Jesus Christ our Saviour, having been made flesh by the Word of God, had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so likewise have we been taught that the food which is blessed by the prayer of His word, and from which our blood and flesh by transmutation are nourished, is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh. For the apostles, in the memoirs composed by them, which are called Gospels, have thus delivered unto us what was enjoined upon them; that Jesus took bread, and when He had given thanks, said, This do in remembrance of Me, Luke 22:19 this is My body; and that, after the same manner, having taken the cup and given thanks, He said, This is My blood; and gave it to them alone. Which the wicked devils have imitated in the mysteries of Mithras, commanding the same thing to be done. For, that bread and a cup of water are placed with certain incantations in the mystic rites of one who is being initiated, you either know or can learn. (First Apology, 66, complete)

And the offering of fine flour, sirs, which was prescribed to be presented on behalf of those purified from leprosy, was a type of the bread of the Eucharist, the celebration of which our Lord Jesus Christ prescribed, in remembrance of the suffering which He endured on behalf of those who are purified in soul from all iniquity, . . . (Dialogue with Trypho, 41, 1)

Yet even now, in your love of contention, you assert that God does not accept the sacrifices of those who dwelt then in Jerusalem, and were called Israelites; but says that He is pleased with the prayers of the individuals of that nation then dispersed, and calls their prayers sacrifices. Now, that prayers and giving of thanks, when offered by worthy men, are the only perfect and well-pleasing sacrifices to God, I also admit. For such alone Christians have undertaken to offer, and in the remembrance effected by their solid and liquid food, whereby the suffering of the Son of God which He endured is brought to mind, whose name the high priests of your nation and your teachers have caused to be profaned and blasphemed over all the earth. (Dialogue with Trypho, 117, 2)

There is then brought to the president of the brethren bread and a cup of wine mixed with water; and he taking them, gives praise and glory to the Father of the universe, through the name of the Son and of the Holy Ghost, and offers thanks at considerable length for our being counted worthy to receive these things at His hands. And when he has concluded the prayers and thanksgivings, all the people present express their assent by saying Amen. This word Amen answers in the Hebrew language to γένοιτο [so be it]. And when the president has given thanks, and all the people have expressed their assent, those who are called by us deacons give to each of those present to partake of the bread and wine mixed with water over which the thanksgiving was pronounced, and to those who are absent they carry away a portion. (First Apology, 65, 3-5)

When referring to the second century in general, Protestant scholars familiar with the topic concur that eucharistic beliefs concerning the Real Presence and eucharistic sacrifice (the sacrifice of the Mass) were thoroughly Catholic, even at that relatively undeveloped period in the history of theology (remember: St. Justin Martyr died around 165 AD):

1) Otto W. Heick, A History of Christian Thought, vol. 1, Philadelphia: Fortress Press, 1965, 221-222:

    The Post-Apostolic Fathers and . . . almost all the Fathers of the ancient Church . . . impress one with their natural and unconcerned realism. To them the Eucharist was in some sense the body and blood of Christ.

2) Williston Walker, A History of the Christian Church, 3rd edition, revised by Robert T. Handy, New York: Scribners, 1970, 90:

    By the middle of the 2nd century, the conception of a real presence of Christ in the Supper was wide-spread . . .

3) F. L. Cross and E. A. Livingstone, editors, The Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church, Oxford Univ. Press, 2nd edition, 1983, 475-476, 1221:

That the Eucharist conveyed to the believer the Body and Blood of Christ was universally accepted from the first . . . Even where the elements were spoken of as ‘symbols’ or ‘antitypes’ there was no intention of denying the reality of the Presence in the gifts . . .

It was also widely held from the first that the Eucharist is in some sense a sacrifice, though here again definition was gradual. The suggestion of sacrifice is contained in much of the NT language . . . the words of institution, ‘covenant,’ ‘memorial,’ ‘poured out,’ all have sacrificial associations. In early post-NT times the constant repudiation of carnal sacrifice and emphasis on life and prayer at Christian worship did not hinder the Eucharist from being described as a sacrifice from the first . . .

From early times the Eucharistic offering was called a sacrifice in virtue of its immediate relation to the sacrifice of Christ.

4) Jaroslav Pelikan, The Emergence of the Catholic Tradition (100-600), Chicago: Univ. of Chicago Press, 1971, 146-147, 166-168, 170, 236-237:

By the date of the Didache [anywhere from about 60 to 160, depending on the scholar]. . . the application of the term ‘sacrifice’ to the Eucharist seems to have been quite natural, together with the identification of the Christian Eucharist as the ‘pure offering’ commanded in Malachi 1:11 . . .

The Christian liturgies were already using similar language about the offering of the prayers, the gifts, and the lives of the worshipers, and probably also about the offering of the sacrifice of the Mass, so that the sacrificial interpretation of the death of Christ never lacked a liturgical frame of reference . . .

. . . it does seem ‘express and clear’ that no orthodox father of the second or third century of whom we have record declared the presence of the body and blood of Christ in the Eucharist to be no more than symbolic (although Clement and Origen came close to doing so) or specified a process of substantial change by which the presence was effected (although Ignatius and Justin came close to doing so). Within the limits of those excluded extremes was the doctrine of the real presence . . .

Liturgical evidence suggests an understanding of the Eucharist as a sacrifice, whose relation to the sacrifices of the Old testament was one of archetype to type, and whose relation to the sacrifice of Calvary was one of ‘re-presentation,’ just as the bread of the Eucharist ‘re-presented’ the body of Christ . . .

5) Carl Volz, Faith and Practice in the Early Church, Minneapolis: Augsburg, 1983, 107:

    Early Christians were convinced that in some way Christ was actually present in the consecrated elements of bread and wine.

6) J. N. D. Kelly, Early Christian Doctrines, San Francisco: Harper & Row, 1978, 447:

    One could multiply texts like these which show Augustine taking for granted the traditional identification of the elements with the sacred body and blood. There can be no doubt that he [Augustine] shared the realism held by almost all of his contemporaries and predecessors.

Now the ball’s in Lucas’ court. He can (pray hard, folks!) interact with the above information and knowledge and exhibit the courage of his convictions, or he can flee to the hills in terror yet again, as he has, the previous 23 times that I have offered critiques of his dubious anti-Catholic contentions, since 25 May 2022 (almost four months ago, as I write).

***

Practical Matters: Perhaps some of my 4,000+ free online articles (the most comprehensive “one-stop” Catholic apologetics site) or fifty books have helped you (by God’s grace) to decide to become Catholic or to return to the Church, or better understand some doctrines and why we believe them.

Or you may believe my work is worthy to support for the purpose of apologetics and evangelism in general. If so, please seriously consider a much-needed financial contribution. I’m always in need of more funds: especially monthly support. “The laborer is worthy of his wages” (1 Tim 5:18, NKJV). 1 December 2021 was my 20th anniversary as a full-time Catholic apologist, and February 2022 marked the 25th anniversary of my blog.

PayPal donations are the easiest: just send to my email address: apologistdave@gmail.com. You’ll see the term “Catholic Used Book Service”, which is my old side-business. To learn about the different methods of contributing, including 100% tax deduction, etc., see my page: About Catholic Apologist Dave Armstrong / Donation InformationThanks a million from the bottom of my heart!

***

Photo credit: Lucas Banzoli, Facebook photo as of 5-3-22, dated 15 January 2018.

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Summary: Brazilian Protestant apologist Lucas Banzoli deals in a cursory & insufficient way with the data concerning what St. Justin Martyr believed about the Real Presence.

 

September 12, 2022

Lucas Banzoli is a very active Brazilian anti-Catholic polemicist, who holds to basically a Seventh-Day Adventist theology, whereby there is no such thing as a soul that consciously exists outside of a body, and no hell (soul sleep and annihilationism). This leads him to a Christology which is deficient and heterodox in terms of Christ’s human nature after His death. He has a Master’s degree in theology, a degree and postgraduate work in history, a license in letters, and is a history teacher, author of 25 books, as well as blogmaster (but now inactive) for six blogs. He’s active on YouTube.

This is my 23rd refutation of articles written by Lucas Banzoli. As of yet, I haven’t received a single word in reply to any of them (or if Banzoli has replied to anything, anywhere, he certainly hasn’t informed me of it). Readers may decide for themselves why that is the case. His words will be in blue. I use RSV for the Bible passages unless otherwise indicated.

*****

I’m replying to a portion of Lucas’ article, “Os Pais da Igreja e a transubstanciação – Parte 1” [The Church Fathers and Transubstantiation (Part 1)] (8-22-12). Citations of St. Ignatius of Antioch (in Lucas’ text and my own) are from the standard Schaff collection of the Church fathers, unless otherwise indicated.

It is common to see Catholics citing Ignatius, Justin, Augustine and others in favor of “transubstantiation”. But what they said was only what Christ himself said: that the bread was his body and the wine was his blood, just as He said He was the true vine, the door, the way, the light, etc. Nothing in the statements indicates or implies any sign of literalism or materialism. 

The Church Fathers sometimes repeated the same truths that Christ taught, but likewise did not believe that the statements were literal, but rather, that they were symbolic and figurative statements. To quote Ignatius [of Antioch], for example, to “prove” transubstantiation because he said that the bread is the body of Christ is as illogical as to believe that faith, the gospel, and himself are the flesh of Christ(!), for he said:

I flee to the Gospel as to the flesh of Jesus, and to the apostles as to the presbytery of the Church. (To the Philippians [should be Philadelphians], 5:1)

Wherefore, clothing yourselves with meekness, be renewed in faith, that is the flesh of the Lord, and in love, that is the blood of Jesus Christ.  (Ignatius to the Trallians, 8:1)

Ignatius affirms that the gospel is the “flesh of Jesus” and faith is the “flesh of the Lord”. These are evident proofs of symbolism, of metaphor. If we were to grant his words literally, we would have to assume that he himself was the “bread of Christ,” for he said:

Allow me to become food for the wild beasts, through whose instrumentality it will be granted me to attain to God. I am the wheat of God, and let me be ground by the teeth of the wild beasts, that I may be found the pure bread of Christ.  (Ignatius to the Romans, 4:1)

The fact that Ignatius said that he would be presented as “the clean bread of Christ” does not mean that he would literally “transubstantiate” himself into the form of bread. All language was merely symbolic.

These three utterances are symbolic (I agree). The question then becomes: is this the only sense in which St. Ignatius uses eucharistic language or talks about the Holy Eucharist? And of course it’s not, as I will prove. The two things aren’t mutually exclusive. In his epistle to the Philadelphians, in the chapter before the one Lucas cites (4), he also writes (seemingly literally):

Take heed, then, to have but one Eucharist. For there is one flesh of our Lord Jesus Christ, and one cup to [show forth] the unity of His blood; one altar; as there is one bishop, . . .

The great Anglican scholar J. B. Lightfoot (pictured at the top) translates this passage as: “Therefore take care to keep the eucharistic feast only; for Christ’s flesh is one and His blood is one . . . so that all may be one by partaking of His own blood” (The Apostolic Fathers: Clement, Ignatius, and Polycarp, five volumes, 1890; reprinted by Baker Book House [Grand Rapids, Michigan, 1981]; I cite Part Two, Volume 2, pp. 257-258)

Therefore, Catholic attempts to interpret certain statements of the Church Fathers literally when they said that the bread was the body and the wine the blood of Christ fail, since very similar statements were clearly symbolic, and they were metaphors, without necessarily requiring any allusion to literalism.

We must, therefore, be very careful with what Catholic websites and blogs have to pass us on from patristic statements that apparently resemble Catholic belief, but which actually apply perfectly to symbolism and figurative expression, as the Church Fathers id not have in mind the Catholic cannibalistic thesis of the transubstantiation of the elements in the Supper. . . . 

Lucas’ problem, which is extremely common in Protestant treatments of the Church fathers (as I know, from 25 years of online debates with them), is to select only certain statements from the fathers that appear to support (but don’t actually support) their view, while ignoring other equally relevant ones that do not support their late-arriving Protestant position.

Thus, he presents the three examples above where Ignatius writes symbolically (and I agree that he does), while ignoring his literal eucharistic statements, and also scholars‘ opinions of his eucharistic theology. I provide both, so that readers will have the full picture, not a “half-truth” and propagandistic presentation.

St. Ignatius expresses eucharistic realism in no uncertain terms here:

They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they confess not the Eucharist to be the flesh of our Saviour Jesus Christ, which suffered for our sins, and which the Father, of His goodness, raised up again. (To the Smyrnaeans, ch. 7 [or, 6 in some sources])

I desire the drink of God, namely His blood, which is incorruptible love and eternal life. (Ignatius to the Romans, 7:3)

Lucas cuts off the beginning of Ignatius’ thought, so that it appears less “realistic” than it would otherwise have seemed. Here’s the whole thing:

I have no delight in corruptible food, nor in the pleasures of this life. I desire the bread of God, the heavenly bread, the bread of life, which is the flesh of Jesus Christ, the Son of God, who became afterwards of the seed of David and Abraham; and I desire the drink of God, namely His blood, which is incorruptible love and eternal life.

Renowned Anglican patristics scholar J. N. D. Kelly writes about this passage and the one in the letter to the Smyrnaeans, above:

The bread is the flesh of Jesus, the cup His blood. Clearly he intends this realism to be taken strictly, for he makes it the basis of his argument against the Docetists’ denial of the reality of Christ’s body. (Early Christian Doctrines, HarperSanFrancisco, revised edition of 1978, p. 197; he refers to: “he . . . blasphemes my Lord, not confessing that He was [truly] possessed of a body”: Smyrnaeans, ch. 5 in Schaff; Kelly says it is in ch. 6)

Again, St. Ignatius teaches the substantial Real Presence of Jesus in the Eucharist:

. . . breaking one and the same bread, which is the medicine of immortality, and the antidote to prevent us from dying, but [which causes] that we should live for ever in Jesus Christ. (To the Ephesians, ch. 20, 2)

Kelly comments:

Because the eucharist brings Christians into union with their Lord, it is the great bond between them, and since it mediates communion with Christ, it is a medicine which procures immortality, . . . an antidote against death which enables us to live in the Lord forever. (Ibid., 197-198)

Eminent Protestant Church historian Philip Schaff summed up Ignatius’ eucharistic theology:

Ignatius speaks of this sacrament in two passages, only by way of allusion, but in very strong, mystical terms, calling it the flesh of our crucified and risen Lord Jesus Christ, and the consecrated bread a medicine of immortality and an antidote of spiritual death. This view, closely connected with his high-churchly tendency in general, no doubt involves belief in the real presence, and ascribes to the holy Supper an effect on spirit and body at once, with reference to the future resurrection, but is still somewhat obscure, and rather an expression of elevated feeling than a logical definition. (History of the Christian Church, § 69. The Doctrine of the Eucharist; my italics)

“Real presence” is not mere symbolism. St. Ignatius — in the first century, not long after the death of Christ — clearly had a Catholic view: one entirely consistent with transubstantiation, although the full development of that doctrine came a little while later, as we should expect and see in the case of all Christian doctrines.

Jaroslav Pelikan, writing at the time as a Lutheran, concurred in his scholarly opinion concerning St. Ignatius’ eucharistic theology. Citing Smyrnaeans, ch. 7 [or, 6], he stated:

In some early Christian writers that presupposition [“special presence” in the previous sentence] was expressed in strikingly realistic language. Ignatius . . . assert[ed] the reality of Christ’s presence in the Eucharist against docetists, who regarded his flesh as a phantasm both in the incarnation and in the Eucharist . . .

The theologians [in the 1st and 2nd centuries] did not have adequate concepts within which to formulate a doctrine of the real presence that evidently was already believed by the church even though it was not yet taught by explicit instruction or confessed by creeds.

As Irenaeus’ reference to the Eucharist as “not common bread” indicates, however, this doctrine of the real presence believed by the church and affirmed in its liturgy was closely tied to the idea of the Eucharist as a sacrifice. (The Christian Tradition: A History of the Development of Doctrine: Vol. 1 of 5: The Emergence of the Catholic Tradition (100-600), Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1971, p. 168)

Ignatius of Antioch (35-107) . . . stated:

Nothing that is visible is good. Indeed, our God Jesus Christ, being now with his Father, becomes even more manifest. (To the Trallians, 3:3) [Google translation of Lucas’ Portugese original:  “Nada do que é visível é bom. De fato, nosso Deus Jesus Cristo, estando agora com o seu Pai, torna-se manifesto ainda mais” (Inácio aos Tralianos, 3:3) ]

Lucas has the incorrect citation here. It’s actually Letter to the Romans, ch. 3, 3:

Nothing visible is eternal. For the things which are seen are temporal, but the things which are not seen are eternal. For our God, Jesus Christ, now that He is with the Father, is all the more revealed [in His glory].

Ignatius certainly would not have said that “nothing that is visible is good” if he believed that Jesus physically changes himself into a piece of bread at the Supper. If that were so, Ignatius would be saying that Jesus himself is not good! The fact is that he believed that Jesus is “now with his Father,” and not physically on earth.

Schaff translates the phrase as “Nothing visible is eternal” but Lightfoot has “Nothing visible is of any worth” (Ibid., p. 202). If Ignatius had intended this as a universal, literal statement, it would have been expressing flat-out docetic or gnostic heresy: as if matter is evil. Ignatius opposed the Docetists, as was noted above by two patristic scholars. In fact, it couldn’t have been an absolute statement because Ignatius goes on to say that “Jesus Christ, now that He is with the Father, is all the more revealed.” He‘s certainly eternal.

St. Ignatius seems to have had in mind 2 Corinthians 4:18: “because we look not to the things that are seen but to the things that are unseen; for the things that are seen are transient, but the things that are unseen are eternal.” Schaff inserted the passage in italics. If in fact this were the case, “eternal” is the better translation because it parallels this Scripture. “Nothing visible is eternal” corresponds to “the things that are seen are transient.” They’re not bad per se; they’re simply not eternal. They pass away. But not all of them pass away, because Jesus is still seen in heaven.

So Lucas’ argument here about Ignatius: Romans 3, 3 is absurd, proves too much, and is therefore its own refutation. St. Ignatius had a Catholic view of the Eucharist, not a low-church Protestant symbolic view. All the reputable scholars and Church historians agree with this opinion: which is likely why Lucas cited none. Out of sight, out of mind . . . 

***

Practical Matters: Perhaps some of my 4,000+ free online articles (the most comprehensive “one-stop” Catholic apologetics site) or fifty books have helped you (by God’s grace) to decide to become Catholic or to return to the Church, or better understand some doctrines and why we believe them.

Or you may believe my work is worthy to support for the purpose of apologetics and evangelism in general. If so, please seriously consider a much-needed financial contribution. I’m always in need of more funds: especially monthly support. “The laborer is worthy of his wages” (1 Tim 5:18, NKJV). 1 December 2021 was my 20th anniversary as a full-time Catholic apologist, and February 2022 marked the 25th anniversary of my blog.

PayPal donations are the easiest: just send to my email address: apologistdave@gmail.com. You’ll see the term “Catholic Used Book Service”, which is my old side-business. To learn about the different methods of contributing, including 100% tax deduction, etc., see my page: About Catholic Apologist Dave Armstrong / Donation InformationThanks a million from the bottom of my heart!

***

Photo credit: Joseph Barber Lightfoot (1828-1889): Anglican biblical scholar, translator of the early Church fathers and Bishop of Durham. He was a key advocate of the authenticity of the epistles of St. Ignatius of Antioch [public domain / Wikimedia Commons]

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Summary: Brazilian Protestant apologist Lucas Banzoli wrote about Ignatius & eucharistic real presence, and claimed that he held a purely symbolic view. He was dead wrong.

September 11, 2022

Including Extensive Biblical Analyses of Exceptionally “Righteous” and “Holy” People, and Merit

Lucas Banzoli is a very active Brazilian anti-Catholic polemicist, who holds to basically a Seventh-Day Adventist theology, whereby there is no such thing as a soul that consciously exists outside of a body, and no hell (soul sleep and annihilationism). This leads him to a Christology which is deficient and heterodox in terms of Christ’s human nature after His death. He has a Master’s degree in theology, a degree and postgraduate work in history, a license in letters, and is a history teacher, author of 25 books, as well as blogmaster (but now inactive) for six blogs. He’s active on YouTube.

This is my 22nd refutation of articles written by Lucas Banzoli. As of yet, I haven’t received a single word in reply to any of them (or if Banzoli has replied to anything, anywhere, he certainly hasn’t informed me of it). Readers may decide for themselves why that is the case. His words will be in blue. I use RSV for the Bible passages unless otherwise indicated.

*****

I’m replying to Lucas’ article, “Maria era uma mulher qualquer?” [Was Mary just any woman?] (3-24-17).

[In another “closely related” article] I unmask the Catholic trick that consists of saying that we “hate Mary” just because we don’t believe in the ridiculous and late Marian dogmas invented by Rome.

I chose my title very carefully. I didn’t (and don’t) claim that Protestants “hate” Mary. Nor do I think that most Catholics believe this (though there certainly are some). I contend that they simply don’t understand the importance and crucial nature of Mariology in the overall framework of Christianity. They haven’t been properly taught. Their theological formation was deficient and insufficient. They have become spiritually impoverished or stunted. This wasn’t true — I’m delighted to report — of the original Protestants. It crept in later, as a result of the corrosion of early manifestations of cynical, skeptical theological liberalism.

Accordingly, I chose the word “denigration” to describe Lucas’ stated opinions. He regards the Blessed Virgin Mary as far “lower” in significance and holiness than she actually is. Although he does (happily) concede several points about her blessedness (even singular blessedness), due to her being the mother of Jesus, He doesn’t present her as the Bible does (sinless). And he takes a few classic supposed “anti-Mary” texts and distorts them in order to try to make this failed, miserable case for Mary’s “ordinariness.” I also describe his pathetic effort as “mindless” because it’s literally groundless and unbiblical, as I will show. It has no substance. It’s simply spiritual ignorance.

So: “hatred”? No. I don’t claim that Protestants (generalizing) hate Mary. But rank ignorance of both the Bible and traditional Catholic and Orthodox and early Protestant Mariology? Yes! Absolutely . . .

In the present article I will dismantle another papist charge, that we assert that Mary was “an ordinary woman.”

That is, in fact (much as he denies it) the conclusion that Lucas argues for in this article.

Usually this accusation is the fruit of a straw man created in debates where the Protestant debater didn’t say anything about it. For example, this occurs when an evangelical claims that Mary was a human being and not a goddess, and then the enraged, teeth-baring papist hurls abuse at the believer and accuses him of saying that Mary was “an ordinary woman.”

I can see why a “papist” might very well react that way, since the premise contains a lie: that is, that we supposedly regard or classify Mary as a “goddess.” That’s a notion smuggled in from Greek or Roman pagan religion and mythology. Catholics regard Mary as God’s greatest creature and the holiest created human being, because God chose her to bear the incarnate God: Jesus. Protestants like Lucas simply collapse that into the category of “goddess” because they seem constitutionally unable to grasp the fact that different folks have different levels of holiness; therefore, that there can be a “holiest” among those who are exceptionally holy, and can do that without becoming God, and remaining quite human.

That’s high and exalted indeed, and worthy of honor and reverence (not worship or adoration), but it has nothing to do with being an alleged  “goddess.” If in fact Catholics believed that Mary was a “goddess” then surely the term would appear in official [magisterial] Catholic documents somewhere. But of course it does not. If Lucas or any Protestant denies that, let them produce the documented evidence. “Put up or shut up!” Best wishes in that endeavor!

Mary was simply exceptionally holy: so much so that she was holier than any other created human being: and that as a result of God performing a special miracle of removing original sin from her at conception. Most Protestants don’t or can’t or won’t accept that, since they have this mistaken and unscriptural idea that all human beings are more or less the same, and exhibit no differences of degree of holiness and righteousness (which ties directly into their denial of merit). The Bible doesn’t teach that, but Protestant extra-biblical tradition unfortunately does.

But after all: was Mary just any woman? My answer is: Yes. And not. Let me explain. The crucial point behind this accusation is not in Mary, but in “any”. The “any” is the emphasis of the sentence. So, it is first necessary to define what “any” is, what the debater understands by the term. When a Protestant claims that Mary was an “any woman”, he is not saying that Mary was an ordinary, despicable or insignificant woman, as the Catholic debater purposely distorts the term. He is merely maintaining that Mary was not “more” a woman than other women, that is, that she was only a woman and not a goddess or demigoddess, as Catholics think.

That is, the “any” is not in a pejorative sense, it is not diminishing the person of Mary; it is simply emphasizing that she was as human as any other woman. In the Bible, all women were created equally in the image and likeness of God as His creatures.

Since we have no disagreement with this whatsoever (as far as it goes), it’s a non sequitur (irrelevant). Lucas again constructs a straw man and knocks it down: impressing no one but those as profoundly ignorant about these matters as he is.

All human beings are of equal value before God, and if anyone denies this, he will descend to Nazi thinking, that held that there were superior and inferior types of people. God loves all men and women equally, regardless of race, nation, age, or role in life.

Of course He does. The marvel here is that Lucas thinks Catholics would deny this. More rank ignorance on display . . .

If a viewpoint strays from this understanding, it’s not Christianity: it’s idolatry, when one human being is placed above all others, sometimes even sharing the focus with God.

Again, the Bible refers to holy people: ones who are holier than others. Therefore, in that scenario there can be one person who is in fact, holier than all other created people: up to and including sinlessness. This person we Catholics believe to be the Blessed Virgin Mary. Let’s take a step back and first establish the premise that Lucas appears to deny: that there are differences in holiness among human beings.

James 5:16-18 . . . The prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects. [17] Eli’jah was a man of like nature with ourselves and he prayed fervently that it might not rain, and for three years and six months it did not rain on the earth. [18] Then he prayed again and the heaven gave rain, and the earth brought forth its fruit.

It’s all right there. The prophet Elijah was just a person like all the rest of us, with a “like nature” (just as was true of Mary also), but he was exceptionally righteous, and here we learn that the prayer of such a person has more powerful effects than that of a less holy person. See a similar verse:

1 Peter 3:12 For the eyes of the Lord are upon the righteous, and his ears are open to their prayer.

The Bible teaches that grace is given in different degrees to different people. See my paper, Degrees of Grace / Quantifiable Differences in Grace [5-4-17].

The description “more righteous” appears four times in the Old Testament. “Righteous man” appears 22 times in the Old Testament, and “good man” seven times. Job is described as “blameless and upright, one who feared God, and turned away from evil” (Job 1:1; cf. 1:8; 2:3). The phrase “blameless man” also appears in 2 Samuel 22:26; Psalms 18:25 and 37:37. “Holy man” occurs in 2 Kings 4:9, in reference to the prophet Elisha.

The notion of merit is entirely biblical:

Catholic Merit vs. Distorted Caricatures (James McCarthy) [1997]

Merit and Cooperating with God for Salvation [7-8-07]

Catholic Bible Verses on Sanctification and Merit [12-20-07]

Our Merit is Based on Our Response to God’s Grace [2009]

Merit & Human Cooperation with God (vs. Calvin #35) [10-19-09]

Jesus Associates Works, Merit, & Heroic Sacrifice w Salvation [11-10-18]

Protestants agree with us that there are differential rewards in heaven. Why would that be? Well, it’s (I think rather obviously) because of different attainments of merit and righteousness in this life: all by God’s grace, I hasten to add (like all good things); but we have to cooperate with our free will and in doing so, we gain merit and more rewards in heaven.

Hebrews 11 is a chapter devoted to “the heroes of faith.” Are we to believe that none of the people mentioned were worthy of such scriptural honor; that they were no higher in righteousness than Joe Blow Protestant sitting in a Bible study on Wednesday night?

There is absolutely such a thing in the New Testament as a “righteous / holy person”: usually meaning in context that he or she is relatively more righteous or holy than other persons:

Matthew 10:41 . . . he who receives a righteous man because he is a righteous man shall receive a righteous man’s reward.

Matthew 13:17 Truly, I say to you, many prophets and righteous men longed to see what you see, and did not see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it.

Matthew 21:32 For John came to you in the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him, . . .

Matthew 23:35 that upon you may come all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of innocent Abel to the blood of Zechari’ah the son of Barachi’ah, . . .

Mark 6:20 for Herod feared John, knowing that he was a righteous and holy man, . . .

Luke 1:5-6 In the days of Herod, king of Judea, there was a priest named Zechari’ah, of the division of Abi’jah; and he had a wife of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elizabeth. [6] And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

Luke 1:70 as he spoke by the mouth of his holy prophets from of old,

Luke 1:74-75 to grant us that we, being delivered from the hand of our enemies, might serve him without fear, [75] in holiness and righteousness before him all the days of our life.

Luke 2:25 Now there was a man in Jerusalem, whose name was Simeon, and this man was righteous and devout,

Luke 23:50 Now there was a man named Joseph from the Jewish town of Arimathe’a. He was a member of the council, a good and righteous man,

Romans 6:13 Do not yield your members to sin as instruments of wickedness, but yield yourselves to God as men who have been brought from death to life, and your members to God as instruments of righteousness.

Romans 6:19 . . . yield your members to righteousness for sanctification.

2 Corinthians 9:10 He who supplies seed to the sower and bread for food will supply and multiply your resources and increase the harvest of your righteousness.

Ephesians 1:4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him.

Ephesians 3:5 . . . his holy apostles and prophets . . .

Ephesians 4:24 and put on the new nature, created after the likeness of God in true righteousness and holiness.

Philippians 1:11 filled with the fruits of righteousness . . .

Colossians 3:12 Put on then, as God’s chosen ones, holy and beloved, compassion, kindness, lowliness, meekness, and patience,

1 Thessalonians 2:10 You are witnesses, and God also, how holy and righteous and blameless was our behavior to you believers;

1 Timothy 6:11 But as for you, man of God, shun all this; aim at righteousness, godliness, faith, love, steadfastness, gentleness. (cf. 2 Tim 2:22)

Titus 1:8 but hospitable, a lover of goodness, master of himself, upright, holy, and self-controlled;

1 Peter 1:15-16 but as he who called you is holy, be holy yourselves in all your conduct; [16] since it is written, “You shall be holy, for I am holy.”

1 Peter 3:5 . . . the holy women who hoped in God . . .

2 Peter 2:5 . . . Noah, a herald of righteousness . . .

2 Peter 2:7-8 . . . righteous Lot . . . [8] (for by what that righteous man saw and heard as he lived among them, he was vexed in his righteous soul day after day with their lawless deeds),

2 Peter 3:2 . . . the holy prophets . . .

1 John 3:7 . . . He who does right is righteous, as he is righteous.

1 John 3:12 and not be like Cain who was of the evil one and murdered his brother. And why did he murder him? Because his own deeds were evil and his brother’s righteous.

Revelation 22:11 Let the evildoer still do evil, and the filthy still be filthy, and the righteous still do right, and the holy still be holy.

sometimes even sharing the focus with God.

That happens several times in Holy Scripture. It’s nothing unusual or controversial:

Mark 16:20 And they went forth and preached everywhere, while the Lord worked with them . . .

Romans 15:17-18  In Christ Jesus, then, I have reason to be proud of my work for God. [18] For I will not venture to speak of anything except what Christ has wrought through me to win obedience from the Gentiles, by word and deed,

1 Corinthians 3:9 . . . we are God’s fellow workers . . . (KJV: “labourers together with God”)

1 Corinthians 15:10  But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace toward me was not in vain. On the contrary, I worked harder than any of them, though it was not I, but the grace of God which is with me.

1 Corinthians 15:58  Therefore, my beloved brethren, be steadfast, immovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, knowing that in the Lord your labor is not in vain.

2 Corinthians 6:1 Working together with him, then, we entreat you not to accept the grace of God in vain.

2 Corinthians 13:3 . . . Christ is speaking in me . . .

Galatians 2:20 I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me; . . .

Philippians 2:13 for God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.

God even shares His glory with human beings, as I have documented.

Once a woman in the crowd said to Jesus: “Blessed is the womb that bore you, and the breasts that you sucked!” (Luke 11:27) What did Jesus answer? If he were Catholic, we would know very well what the answer would be, and he would exalt Mary even more. But his reply was: “Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and keep it!” (Luke 11:28) Note that Luke, the evangelist, introduces Jesus’ answer with a “But“, to make it clear that he was contradicting what the woman said. And when he quotes Jesus’ answer, he starts with a “Before”, placing anyone who hears the word of God as blessed before Mary.

I’m not sure where Lucas sees “before.”

That woman in the crowd thought Mary was special and more important than all the others for giving birth to Jesus – this is exactly the same Catholic argument! – but Jesus contradicts it and puts anyone who keeps the word of God above it.

Jesus wasn’t denying that His mother was blessed, but instead, affirming it and moving on to make a more general point (which would likely include Mary as well: as the exemplar of a general description of holiness). This is scarcely a case illustrating “Catholicism gone awry.” In fact, it is no problem at all (none, whatsoever), rightly understood. Jesus affirms His mother and her holiness, and goes on to make another point, just as he did in several other similar passages. He was referring to Mary, too, when he was extolling those who “hear the word of God and obey it” (Phillips). The Catholic Encyclopedia (in its article: “The Blessed Virgin Mary”) comments on this passage:

At first sight, it seems that Jesus Himself depreciated the dignity of His Blessed Mother. . . .

In reality, Jesus . . . places the bond that unites the soul with God above the natural bond of parentage which unites the Mother of God with her Divine Son. The latter dignity is not belittled; as men naturally appreciate it more easily, it is employed by Our Lord as a means to make known the real value of holiness. Jesus, therefore, really, praises His mother in a most emphatic way; for she excelled the rest of men in holiness not less than in dignity. . . .

Think for a moment of the implications of the interpretation whereby Jesus would be denying that Mary was blessed. Really? This is not just a question of allegedly “excessive” Catholic Marian veneration, but of clear biblical texts.

This is about a woman who was hailed by the angel Gabriel (what other human being is treated this way by an angel?), twice called “blessed” by Elizabeth (mother of John the Baptist: Lk 1:42, 45), precisely because she was the Mother of God the Son and believed the angel when she was informed of this. Mary herself says in reply: “henceforth all generations will call me blessed” (Lk 1:48). And of course, Catholics do that and almost all Protestants do not. We fulfill the prophecy.

In other words, if Mary was blessed, it was for keeping the Word of God, and therefore being as blessed as any other person who also keeps the Word, and not in a privileged and superior way just because she was his mother. That’s a harsh message, it’s true.

It’s “both/and”; not “either/or” as in the frequent unbiblical “dichotomous” Protestant mentality. Mary kept the Word so well that she was sinless. Who can keep it better than that? But she was privileged, too, by being the mother of God incarnate: an absolutely unique human accomplishment. One either grasps the sublime wonder and marvel of this or they do not. This is what I was referring to earlier, in describing many Protestants as having a “theological formation” that was “deficient and insufficient” and “spiritually impoverished or stunted” and suffering from “spiritual ignorance” and a sad state of being “oblivious to self-evident spiritual reality and manifest biblical teachings.”

Martin Luther didn’t suffer from these shortcomings at all. He “got it”: in a way that Lucas seems literally unable to comprehend:

She became the Mother of God, in which work so many and such great good things are bestowed on her as pass man’s understanding. For on this there follows all honor, all blessedness, and her unique place in the whole of mankind, among which she has no equal, namely, that she had a child by the Father in heaven, and such a Child . . . Hence men have crowded all her glory into a single word, calling her the Mother of God . . . None can say of her nor announce to her greater things, even though he had as many tongues as the earth possesses flowers and blades of grass: the sky, stars; and the sea, grains of sand. It needs to be pondered in the heart what it means to be the Mother of God. (Commentary on the Magnificat, 1521; Luther’s Works, Vol. XXI, 326)

That is the main consideration of Mary’s uniqueness. She was the Mother of God [the Son]. No one else was or is. No one had the unfathomable honor and privilege of not only bearing the Incarnate God for nine months, but living with Him and raising Him for thirty years, when the rest of the world knew Him not (they only had three years to do so). Mary thus had intimate connection with Jesus for ten times more years than anyone else, other than St. Joseph. Is that not amazingly unique as well, and anything but “ordinary”?

When I was a Protestant, I “got this” too. I believed that Mary was the greatest human being ever created. And why? Because she bore Jesus, and was so holy and humble, and appeared to be the first Christian in the new covenant (though I would have denied that she was sinless).

Lucas, in a related article, concedes this point (though it seems almost self-contradictory, given his overall argument):

Mary being the mother of Jesus, the Son of God is more than enough to consider her truly blessed and graced, as the Bible says of her. Although the Bible says that Mary was blessed among women, I affirm without hesitation that she was more blessed than all women as well, because of this unique and singular fact.

Secondly, she was full of grace (and called that by the angel Gabriel); that is, sinless: which is consistent with her Immaculate Conception. I explained how this follows, from Luke 1:28, in many articles:

Luke 1:28 (“Full of Grace”) & Immaculate Conception [2004]

The Bible: Mary Was Without Sin [4-1-09]

Mary’s Immaculate Conception: A Biblical Argument [2010]

Annunciation: Was Mary Already Sublimely Graced? [10-8-11]

Biblical Support for Mary’s Immaculate Conception [National Catholic Register, 10-29-18]

A “Biblical” Immaculate Conception? (vs. James White) [8-27-21]

Lucas agrees in his related article, that Mary was “full of grace”:

The Bible also says that Mary was “graced” or “full of grace” (depending on the controversial translation of kecharitomene), and we agree: [cites Luke 1:28-30] . . .

And while the most likely translation of kecharitomene is “graced” rather than “full of grace”, I believe without a doubt that Mary was “full of grace” as well. And that’s no retreat. I already wrote an article stating this on September 7, 2012 . . . 

Interestingly, the translation he used for Luke 1:30 is translated into English by Google: “Do not be afraid, Mary; you have been graced by God!” [Portugese: “Não tenha medo, Maria; você foi agraciada por Deus!”] This is a good rendering, because the Greek word is “grace” [charin / χάριν: Strong’s word #5485]. Many translations use “favor with God” here but “graced by God” is perfectly apt and proper. NASB translates charin as “grace” 122 times (78%) out of 156 appearances. Some non-Catholic English translations of Luke 1:30 are similar:

Amplified Bible, Classic (AMPC) you have found grace (free, spontaneous, absolute favor and loving-kindness) with God.

NEB + REB God has been gracious to you.

Expanded Bible (EXB) God has shown you his grace [you have found favor/grace with God].

Jubilee Bible 2000 (JUB) thou hast found grace with God.

New Century Version (NCV) God has shown you his grace.

New Matthew Bible (NMB) you have found grace with God.

Wycliffe Bible (WYC) thou hast found grace with God.

Lamsa You have found grace with God.

Thirdly, she was called “blessed” in an extraordinary way, and precisely because she was the mother of Jesus:

Luke 1:41-48 And when Elizabeth heard the greeting of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit [42] and she exclaimed with a loud cry, “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb! [43] And why is this granted me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? [44] For behold, when the voice of your greeting came to my ears, the babe in my womb leaped for joy. [45] And blessed is she who believed that there would be a fulfilment of what was spoken to her from the Lord.” [46] And Mary said, “My soul magnifies the Lord, [47] and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior, [48] for he has regarded the low estate of his handmaiden. For behold, henceforth all generations will call me blessed;

That’s biblical teaching. Lucas, in his related article, to his credit, again agrees:

We evangelical Christians have absolutely no problem or hesitation in asserting about Mary what the Bible actually says she was. The Bible says that Mary was blessed among women, and we agree [cites Luke 1:42] . . .

The Bible says that Mary would be called “blessed” through all generations, and we agree, and we consider Mary certainly very blessed: [cites Luke 1:46-49]

That’s all great. I would simply note that if Lucas agrees with Scripture that Mary was “blessed among women” and “certainly very blessed”, then why doesn’t he call her what we call her: “the Blessed Virgin Mary”? Catholics literally do what the Bible predicts: we call her “Blessed”: precisely as the Bible says would happen in “all generations.”

Fourthly, Catholic belief in her Immaculate Conception finds strong analogies to the prophets Isaiah, Jeremiah, and John the Baptist, and to the Apostle Paul:

Isaiah 49:1, 5 . . . The LORD called me from the womb, . . . [5] And now the LORD says, who formed me from the womb to be his servant, to bring Jacob back to him, and that Israel might be gathered to him, for I am honored in the eyes of the LORD, and my God has become my strength –

Jeremiah 1:5 “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I appointed you a prophet to the nations.” (KJV: “sanctified thee”)

Luke 1:15 for he will be great before the Lord, and he shall drink no wine nor strong drink, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit, even from his mother’s womb.

Galatians 1:15 . . . he who had set me apart before I was born, and had called me through his grace,

Fifth, we have the data from Revelation 12, which is about Mary and illustrates a strong heavenly exaltation and veneration of Mary:

Virgin Mary: Woman of Revelation 12? [4-1-09]

Dialogue on the Woman of Revelation 12 (Mary?) [8-16-11]

Blessed Virgin Mary & Revelation 12: Debate with a Protestant [5-28-12]

Defending Mary (Revelation 12 & Her Assumption) [5-28-12]

Vs. James White #12: Mary the Woman of Revelation 12 [11-7-19]

Is Our Lady the Woman of Revelation 12? [National Catholic Register, 11-27-19]

It is an affront to the ears of the most fanatical Catholics, who unduly exalt Mary with exactly the same argument used by the woman in the crowd whom Jesus antagonized. But it’s the truth, whatever the cost: Jesus doesn’t put Mary on a pedestal because she was his mother. The “pedestal” is to guard the Word of God, and in this all those who practice are together.

We venerate Mary for the above reasons: all eminently biblical. Period. It’s the Bible that “put Mary on a pedestal.” Lucas’ real beef is with Holy Scripture. Because of that, we follow that example, since we desire to ground all of our beliefs (or to have them be in harmony with) in the biblical revelation.

Another text where this thought becomes even clearer is in Mark 3:32-35, which says:

“And a crowd was sitting about him; and they said to him, “Your mother and your brothers are outside, asking for you.” [33] And he replied, “Who are my mother and my brothers?” [34] And looking around on those who sat about him, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers! [35] Whoever does the will of God is my brother, and sister, and mother.””

Here Jesus not only privileges his spiritual family over his natural family – and explicitly includes his mother in this set – but also uses the term “any”, so oppressive to the Tridentines. Yes, what Jesus was saying is that anyone [“whoever”] who does the will of God is your brother, sister and mother. If Jesus says anyone can be like Mary if they do God’s will, then Mary is like anyone who does God’s will. This is simple and basic logic. Spiritually speaking, Mary was an “any” woman, equal to all others who did the will of God.

This is not belittling Mary, but elevating all others in equal dignity.

I dealt with this groundless objection, too, at length: “Who is My Mother?”: Beginning of “Familial Church” [8-26-19]. Here are some highlights:

James Spencer Northcote comments . . .:

. . . nor can it be necessary to point out to anyone who is familiar with the Gospels, how common a thing it was with our Blessed Lord to direct His answers not so much to the questions that had been put forward, as to the inward thoughts and motives of those who put them; how sometimes He set aside the question altogether as though he had not heard it, yet proceeded to make it the occasion of imparting some general lesson which it suggested. This is precisely what He does now. . . .

Jesus took this opportunity to show that He regarded all of His followers (in what would become the Christian Church) as family. Similarly, He told His disciples, “I have called you friends” (Jn 15:15).It doesn’t follow that this is “a rebuff of this kin” (i.e., his immediate family). He simply moved from literal talk of families to a larger conception and vision of families as those who do “the will of God.” Thus, Jesus habitually used “brethren” to describe those who were not His immediate family: [I cite six examples] . . .

It’s not a rebuff of His mother and father and half-brothers and/or cousins . . . it’s simply the beginning of the Body of Christ, and the Christian Church being regarded as one large, extended family.

None of this has any bearing on the spiritual status of Mary. It’s simply Jesus “expanding the circle” of Christian believers, so to speak. Protestants like Lucas see this as an alleged denigration of Mary because they are already predisposed to do so before they read the text. Such a view is not inherently in the text.

In the mind of the Catholic apologist, Mary can only be honored if she demeans everyone else.

No informed apologist ever said any such thing. It’s absurd. But there can (indeed must be) be a human being who is holier than anyone else, just as there are people who can play basketball better than anyone else, or run faster, or understand mathematics better than anyone, etc. So there is the holiest person. Catholics say — based on the Bible and unbroken Sacred Tradition — that this person is the Blessed Virgin Mary.

In the Bible, Mary is in the same group as others who seek God, not because she is despicable, but because others are just as important as she is spiritually before God.

That’s simply not true, as I have just demonstrated in fine different ways in the Bible (and by dismantling his alleged biblical disproofs). It’s what Protestants like Lucas wish or wrongly imagine to be true, despite the Bible.

While the Catholic demeans everyone to elevate Mary in an idolatrous way,

We do no such thing. We simply say she was sinless and God’s greatest creature (which someone logically has to be; for example, maybe a Protestant would say this person was St. Paul). And we don’t make an idol of her because we don’t worship or adore her as a goddess. We venerate and honor her, which is a perfectly biblical thing:

The Imitation of St. Paul & the Veneration of Saints [2004]

Bible on Veneration of Saints & Angels: John Calvin’s Antipathy to Veneration of Saints and Angels vs. Explicit Biblical Evidences of Same [10-1-12]

Biblical Evidence for Veneration of Saints [2013]

Veneration of Saints: God “In” and “Through” St. Paul [5-7-13; slightly expanded on 5-17-21]

Veneration of & Bowing Before an Angel (Joshua 5:13-15) [9-7-13]

Venerating & Bowing Before Angels & Men: Biblical? [11-10-14]

New (?) Analogical Biblical Argument for Veneration of the Saints and Angels from the Prohibition of Blasphemy of the Same  [8-8-15]

Veneration of Human Beings: Seven Biblical Examples (Apostles Paul and Silas, Kings David and Saul, Prophets Daniel and Samuel, Patriarch Joseph) [3-4-19]

Angel Gabriel’s “Hail” (Lk 1:28): Veneration of Mary? [3-8-19]

Imitating Paul & Saints: Biblical Argument for Veneration [10-29-21]

Elizabeth’s Veneration of God-Blessed Mary [12-2-21]

the Bible elevates everyone, without exception, who does God’s will, in God’s eyes.

Yes it does. That is the basis of merit: human beings accept God’s grace and act upon it,: thereby receiving merit.

It doesn’t exalt one to debase the others; it exalts others by making everyone equal under the mercy and love of God.

God loves everyone equally, and desires that all be saved (they are not because so many reject God’s free offer of grace), but they are not equally holy or meritorious, and do not even receive equal measures of grace, as massively shown above.

. . . all this just to solely extol Mary to the detriment of all others. If that isn’t misogyny and idolatry of the highest degree, I don’t know what is.

What an odd claim, seeing that Catholics have many female saints whom we venerate, and have proclaimed four Doctors of the Church: St. Teresa of Avila (1515-1582), St. Catherine of Siena (1347-1380), St. Therese of Lisieux (1873-1897), and St. Hildegard of Bingen (1098-1179). Doctors of the Church are “saints whose writing or preaching is outstanding for guiding the faithful in all periods of the Church’s history” (Fr. John A. Hardon, SJ, Modern Catholic Dictionary).

The rest of this article that I have not directly responded to is either reiteration, or just plain stupid and silly and more straw men: ideas and opinions that never arose in any pious and educated Catholic mind. I didn’t have the patience to deal with all of it; but the heart and essence of Lucas’ argument has been dealt with and thoroughly refuted, and this article is over 5,000 words as it is.

Please keep praying for my patience, dear Catholic readers. I’ll need it as I continue to wallow through the outrageous and noxious, odious muck of Lucas’ anti-Catholic articles. The most insufferable of them all is when he battles against what he falsely imagines to be Catholic Mariology and what he wrongly believes about the Blessed Virgin Mary herself.

But someone has to refute this blasphemous slop, so here I am — only by God’s grace — engaging in that task.

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Photo credit: Istanbul: Chora Church Museum (Kariye Cami). Nartex. A mosaic showing the Virgin Mary beside Jesus. Photograph by Giovanni Dall’Orto, May 29, 2006. Released into public domain by the photographer [Wikimedia Commons]

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Summary: Brazilian Protestant apologist Lucas Banzoli engages in mindless denigration of an imagined “Mary” by not comprehending what it means to be the Mother of Jesus.

September 9, 2022

Was Mary Full of Grace and Therefore Sinless? And If So, Was This Necessary or Only “Fitting”?

Lucas Banzoli is a very active Brazilian anti-Catholic polemicist, who holds to basically a Seventh-Day Adventist theology, whereby there is no such thing as a soul that consciously exists outside of a body, and no hell (soul sleep and annihilationism). This leads him to a Christology which is deficient and heterodox in terms of Christ’s human nature after His death. He has a Master’s degree in theology, a degree and postgraduate work in history, a license in letters, and is a history teacher, author of 25 books, as well as blogmaster (but now inactive) for six blogs. He’s active on YouTube.

This is my 21st refutation of articles written by Lucas Banzoli. As of yet, I haven’t received a single word in reply to any of them (or if Banzoli has replied to anything, anywhere, he certainly hasn’t informed me of it). Readers may decide for themselves why that is the case. His words will be in blue. I use RSV for the Bible passages unless otherwise indicated.

*****

I’m replying to Lucas’ article, “Maria pecou?” [Did Mary sin? ] (2-5-15).

Yes, [Mary] sinned. If all have sinned (Rom.3:23; 5:12), Mary has sinned. Case closed.

It’s not case closed at all. I dealt with this in my article, “All Have Sinned” vs. a Sinless, Immaculate Mary? [1996; revised and posted at National Catholic Register on 12-11-17]. I addressed the issue that “all” in Scripture often does not mean “absolutely every, without exception.” Mary’s sinlessness is not a logical impossibility, or absolutely ruled out based on the meaning of pas [“all”] alone.

To give three quick examples of what I am talking about: Paul writes that “all Israel will be saved,” (Rom 11:26), but we know that many will not be saved. And in Romans 15:14, Paul describes members of the Roman church as “filled with all knowledge”, which clearly cannot be taken literally. 1 Corinthians 15:22 states: “For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.” As far as physical death is concerned (the context of 1 Cor 15), not “all” people have died (e.g., Enoch: Gen 5:24; cf. Heb 11:5; Elijah: 2 Kings 2:11). Likewise, “all” will not be made spiritually alive by Christ, as some will choose to suffer eternal spiritual death in hell.

But I think an even more effective explanation is the following:

Mary was included in the “all” in the sense that she certainly would have been subject to original sin [and almost certainly would have actually sinned] like all the rest of us but for God’s special preventive act of grace – a “preemptive strike,” so to speak. This is why she can rightly say that God was her Savior too (Lk 1:47). . . .

[This] allows one to take “all” here in its most straightforward, common sense meaning, but with the proviso that Mary was spared from inevitable sin by means of a direct, extraordinary intervention of God, . . .

1. Mary never sinned, because her womb gave birth to an immaculate person.

And? If Mary is immaculate, then Mary’s mother’s womb also produced an immaculate person, but Catholic apologists do not claim that Mary’s mother is immaculate either. If this “logic” were minimally followed, it would lead us to Eve:

• Every immaculate being can only be generated by another immaculate being.

• Mary is immaculate for generating a sinless being.

• Mary, as a sinless being, could only then be generated by another sinless being.

• Mary’s mother, therefore, was also immaculate.

• But if Mary’s mother was immaculate and only sinless people can beget immaculate beings, then Mary’s mother’s mother was immaculate too.

• But if Mary’s mother’s mother was immaculate, then…

We already know what this will lead to, in papist “logic.” Do not try to reason with papists too much; otherwise the heads of these “apologists” will explode. This is the sort of reasoning we see from someone who lets the pope reason for them.

This is ludicrous: as is Lucas’ entire article; clueless, out to sea. And it is all these things because this is not how the Catholic Church understands or defends the Immaculate Conception of Mary in the first place. Hence my title. It’s a straw man. Lucas can go out and find Catholic apologists (real and credentialed or so-called / self-proclaimed) who make arguments like this, but so what? What does that prove? It only establishes that:

1) these particular people don’t know what they are talking about,

and

2) they aren’t familiar with how the Church explains this doctrine.

In other words, they’re as ignorant as Lucas is about Catholic Mariology. Consequently, all Lucas “proves” by silly pseudo-“arguments” like this is that there are misinformed or downright ignorant Catholics out there who unwillingly misrepresent Holy Mother Church and Catholic Mariology alike. One can always find such people in any religious group. And this is why one must always document from official ecclesiastical sources.

It’s easy enough to do so. Catholicism teaches that Mary’s Immaculate Conception was not necessary in order for her to bear the incarnate God in the virgin birth. She wasn’t required to be without sin in order to be Jesus’ mother. Rather, the Church teaches that it was appropriate or “fitting” for this to be the case. Mary herself became immaculate, not because of her mother or any other ancestor, but because God chose to perform a special miracle of grace in her case, at the moment of her conception.

It had nothing to do — strictly speaking — with anyone else. Mary herself couldn’t even participate in it since it was at the instant of her conception. Here are actual official, relevant Catholic documents concerning this, rather than “apologetic old wives’ tales”:

Blessed Pope Pius IX, in his 1854 declaration on the Immaculate Conception (Ineffabilis Deus) wrote:

For it was certainly not fitting that this vessel of election should be wounded by the common injuries, since she, differing so much from the others, had only nature in common with them, not sin. In fact, it was quite fitting that, as the Only-Begotten has a Father in heaven, whom the Seraphim extol as thrice holy, so he should have a Mother on earth who would never be without the splendor of holiness.

The Catechism teaches the same:

#722 The Holy Spirit prepared Mary by his grace. It was fitting that the mother of him in whom “the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily” should herself be “full of grace.” She was, by sheer grace, conceived without sin as the most humble of creatures, the most capable of welcoming the inexpressible gift of the Almighty. . . .”

This thinking goes back at least as far as St. Anselm (1034-1109). In his treatise On the Virginal Conception, he  expounded the principle on which the doctrine rests in the following words: “It was fitting that the conception of that man (Christ) should be accomplished from a most pure mother. For it was fitting that that Virgin should be resplendent with such a purity, . . .”

2. Mary never sinned, because blessed was the fruit of her womb.

[. . .]

• The law of Deuteronomy 28 says of those who fulfill it that blessed would be the fruit of her womb.

• Mary was told that “blessed is the fruit of her womb”.

• Therefore, Mary never sinned.

This is as silly and insubstantial as Lucas’ first “argument.” Being “blessed” has no intrinsic relationship with a supposed or possible sinlessness. So it’s simply one huge non sequitur (utterly irrelevant consideration), and as such, deserves no further attention. As his source for this ridiculous argument, Lucas cites a comedian (!). This is supposed to be impressive or compelling? I guess that’s highly “fitting”: since his entire article is a joke and a farce.

3. Mary never sinned because she is the perfect tabernacle.

Believe it or not, there are Catholics going around propagating the idea that Mary is the perfect tabernacle of Hebrews 9:11, which says: “But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things that have come, then through the greater and more perfect tent (not made with hands, that is, not of this creation)” (RSV)

This is yet another variant of #1 and #2. I’ve never heard of this wacko argument in 32 years of [real] Catholic apologetics. What informed Catholics argue is that Mary is the “ark of the new covenant”: based on several fascinating scriptural analogies. But even so, it would not be stated that this requires her to be immaculate; only that it was “fitting” for her to be.

4. Mary never sinned, because she is the ark of the covenant.

huh? What? repeat? Is Maria the ark? Really? Really?

I shouldn’t even waste time on this one, which is the most fun of all. Basically, the argument is that the ark of the covenant was a foreshadowing of Mary, because the ark was a symbol of God’s presence, and Mary was the one who begot Jesus.

I agree that he shouldn’t waste time battling straw men. He makes a fool and an ass of himself. But since he has now brought up at least an actual historic Catholic apologetic argument (congratulations!), why don’t we briefly take a look at the real analogical argument, as opposed to Lucas’ caricature of it, along with the obligatory mocking of the straw man. Here are the actual biblical passages where this notion was drawn from:

Luke 1:35 And the angel said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born will be called holy, the Son of God.”

The Greek word for overshadow is episkiasei, which describes a bright, glorious cloud. It is used with reference to the cloud of transfiguration of Jesus (Mt 17:5; Mk 9:7; Lk 9:34) and also has a connection to the shekinah glory of God in the Old Testament (Ex 24:15-16; 40:34-38; 1 Ki 8:10). Mary is, therefore, in effect, the new temple and holy of holies, where God was present in a special fashion. In fact, Scripture draws many parallels between Mary, the “ark of the new covenant” and the ark of the (old) covenant:

Exodus 40:34-35 Then the cloud covered the tent of meeting, and the glory of the LORD filled the tabernacle. And Moses was not able to enter the tent of meeting, because the cloud abode upon it, and the glory of the LORD filled the tabernacle. (cf. 1 Ki 8:6-11)

The Greek Septuagint translation uses the same word, episkiasei, in this passage. There are at least four more direct parallels as well:

2 Samuel 6:9 And David was afraid of the LORD that day; and he said, “How can the ark of the LORD come to me?”

Luke 1:43 And why is this granted me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?

* * *

2 Samuel 6:15 So David and all the house of Israel brought up the ark of the LORD with shouting, and with the sound of the horn.

Luke 1:42 and she exclaimed with a loud cry, “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb!”

* * *

2 Samuel 6:14, 16 And David danced before the LORD with all his might; and David was girded with a linen ephod. . . . King David leaping and dancing before the LORD . . .

1 Chronicles 15:29 And as the ark of the covenant of the LORD came to the city of David, Michal the daughter of Saul looked out of the window, and saw King David dancing and making merry . . .

Luke 1:44 For behold, when the voice of your greeting came to my ears, the babe in my womb leaped for joy.

* * *

2 Samuel 6:10-11 So David was not willing to take the ark of the LORD into the city of David; but David took it aside to the house of O’bed-e’dom the Gittite. And the ark of the LORD remained in the house of O’bed-e’dom the Gittite three months . . .

Luke 1:39, 56 In those days Mary arose and went with haste into the hill country, to a city of Judah, . . . And Mary remained with her about three months, and returned to her home.

Further reflection on “holy places” and “holy items” brings out the meaning of the striking parallel symbolism. The Temple and Tabernacle were holy, and this was especially the case with the holy of holies, where the ark was kept. God was said to dwell above the ark, between the two cherubim (Ex 25:22). The presence of God always imparted holiness (Duet 7:6; 26:19; Jer 2:3). The furnishings of the Tabernacle could not be touched by anyone, save a few priests, on pain of death (Num 1:51-53; 2:17; 4:15).

This was true of the holiest things, associated with God and worship of God. The high priest only entered the holy of holies once a year, on the Day of Atonement (Num 29:8). The Jews would tie a rope to his leg in case he perished from improper behavior (Lev 16:2, 13), so they could pull him out. This was true of the ark itself. Uzziah merely reached out to steady it when it was toppling over, and was struck dead (2 Samuel 6:2-7). Others died when they simply looked inside of it (1 Sam 6:19; cf. Ex 33:20).

This is how God regards people and even inanimate objects that are in close proximity to Him. Thus, it was altogether fitting that Mary, as the ark of the new covenant, Theotokos (“bearer of God”): the one who had the sublime honor of carrying God incarnate in her womb, would be exceptionally holy.

. . . it should be noted that nothing in the Bible indicates that the ark typifies anything or anyone . . . with Elijah-John there is still a biblical confirmation of the typology, while with the “ark-Mary” there is absolutely nothing.

Right. I provided four striking analogies above, that puts the lie to this claim.

And even if the ark did typify Mary because the ark carried the presence of God and Mary begat Jesus, we could do the exact same thing and spiritualize the biblical texts to the point where we are all “arks”, because Paul told us that, spiritually, Christ is formed within all Christians, not just in Mary: “My little children, with whom I am again in travail until Christ be formed in you!” (Galatians 4:19)

Indeed, God says that we are “God’s temple” because the Holy Spirit, and the Father and the Son as well, live within us. Lucas finally stumbles upon some truth, but (sorry!) it only helps the Catholic Mariological case:

1 Corinthians 3:16-17 Do you not know that you are God’s temple and that God’s Spirit dwells in you? [17] If any one destroys God’s temple, God will destroy him. For God’s temple is holy, and that temple you are.

1 Corinthians 6:17-20 But he who is united to the Lord becomes one spirit with him. [18] Shun immorality. Every other sin which a man commits is outside the body; but the immoral man sins against his own body. [19] Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, which you have from God? You are not your own; [20] you were bought with a price. So glorify God in your body.

2 Corinthians 6:15-17 What accord has Christ with Be’lial? Or what has a believer in common with an unbeliever? [16] What agreement has the temple of God with idols? For we are the temple of the living God; as God said, “I will live in them and move among them, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. [17] Therefore come out from them, and be separate from them, says the Lord, and touch nothing unclean;
then I will welcome you,

See how holiness and proximity to God go hand-in-hand? This is precisely the Catholic point about Mary bearing God the Son; the incarnate God. Perfect holiness is plainly highly appropriate; though not absolutely necessary, as explained. St. Paul nails down that point in his analyses of the indwelling Holy Spirit in all Christian believers, in noting that this should cause us to “shun immorality” and “glorify God in your body” and be “one spirit with him” and “come out from them, and be separate from them”: all because we are temples of the Holy Spirit.

And how is this at all inconsistent with — let alone a disproof of — the notion that it was fitting for Mary to be without sin because she bore God the Son in her body for nine months? It was because God knew that Mary would almost certainly fall into sin like all of us, but for His special act of grace at her conception, that He did that, so that she would be a perfectly holy vessel for the incarnate God: as is utterly appropriate and fitting. It’s absolutely pure “monergistic” grace. Mary knew and did absolutely nothing to receive it, because it was simultaneous with the supernatural creation of her soul and the natural, biological beginning of existence of her body. It was all God, and all grace.

Nor is it at all implausible, “unbiblical” or inconceivable. After all, it merely made Mary like Eve: without sin, and before having committed original sin. This is why the fathers and Catholics call Mary the “new Eve” or “second Eve.” The first one said “no” to God. Mary said “yes.” A sinless person or creature is not impossible. They exist on the earth today, as I write. Adam and Eve were, the unfallen angels have always been sinless, children under the age of reason (in a sense) are, as well as some who are severely mentally disabled, and indeed all of us who are granted final salvation and eternal life will be sinless in heaven.

This is the problem with interpreting the Bible in overly typological terms: we can put anything in it. Even the insanity that Mary was an ark, or that we all are.

It’s not “insanity” at all. It’s an explicit biblical analogy, expressed in several ways. Lucas thinks that is insane. Catholics take all of the Bible very seriously, rather than picking and choosing only what we personally prefer, based on an existing predisposition even before we get to Holy Scripture. And we are all “arks” in an even greater sense: being temples of God the Holy Spirit and all three Persons of the Trinity (many other passages indicate). This is all based on abundant scriptural proof.

5- Mary never sinned, because the Bible does not say that Mary sinned

Wow! What a fantastic argument! So let’s see how many people have never sinned either: [he names twenty]

It’s true that the Bible never shows Mary sinning (though various failed arguments to that end have been attempted; I have a whole section about that on my Blessed Virgin Mary web page). Absence of positive evidence would be the notoriously weak “argument from silence” (I agree). But belief in Mary’s sinlessness is based on much more than we have for these other twenty people. I have made several “Bible-Only” arguments for the sinlessness of Mary. The key is her being “full of grace” (Luke 1:28). Rightly understood, that is a positive proof that she was without sin:

Luke 1:28 (“Full of Grace”) & Immaculate Conception [2004]

The Bible: Mary Was Without Sin [4-1-09]

Mary’s Immaculate Conception: A Biblical Argument [2010]

Annunciation: Was Mary Already Sublimely Graced? [10-8-11]

Biblical Support for Mary’s Immaculate Conception [National Catholic Register, 10-29-18]

A “Biblical” Immaculate Conception? (vs. James White) [8-27-21]

As we see, Lucas gets to one of the actual Catholic arguments (Luke 1:28) next (congratulations again, for actually avoiding irrelevant and absurd straw man battles!):

6-Mary never sinned, because she was full of grace.

So Stephen also never sinned: “And Stephen, full of grace and power, did great wonders and signs among the people.” (Acts 6:8)

In that verse, the phrase is plērēs charitos [πλήρης χάριτος], not kecharitōmenē [κεχαριτωμένη], as in Luke 1:28. If the Greek terminology is different, then the argument loses most or all of its relevance and force. The perfect stem of a Greek verb [as with kecharitōmenē], denotes, according to Friedrich Blass and Albert DeBrunner, “continuance of a completed action” (Greek Grammar of the New Testament [Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1961], 66). Mary, therefore, continues afterward to be full of the grace she possessed at the time of the Annunciation.

Nor the Corinthians: “And God is able to provide you with every blessing in abundance, so that you may always have enough of everything and may provide in abundance for every good work.” (2 Corinthians 9:8)

This gets back to the generalized and non-literal meaning of “all”: as discussed above. Lucas’ translation, rendered into English, is: “And God is able to make all grace abound to you, so that, always having all sufficiency in all things, you may abound to every good work”. But here the phrase is pasan charin [πᾶσαν χάριν], so it’s not the same as Luke 1:28, which is unique.

Nor the Ephesians: “to the praise of his glorious grace which he freely bestowed on us in the Beloved.” (Eph.1:6)

Lucas’ translation (transferred to English) reads in part: “he has filled us with grace”. In looking at about 35 English translations of Ephesians 1:6, I never see the word “filled” in any of them. In any event, it’s again a different Greek construction. According to Marvin Vincent, a well-known Protestant linguist and expert on biblical Greek, the meaning is:

. . . not “endued us with grace,” nor “made us worthy of love,” but, as “grace – which he freely bestowed.” (Word Studies in the New Testament, III, 365)

Vincent indicates different meanings for the word grace in Luke 1:28 and Ephesians 1:6. A.T. Robertson also defines the word in the same fashion, as “he freely bestowed” (Word Pictures in the New Testament, IV, 518). Here the phrase is charitos autou hēs echaritōsen [χάριτος αὐτοῦ ἧς ἐχαρίτωσεν].

As for the grace bestowed here on all believers being parallel to the fullness of grace bestowed upon the Blessed Virgin Mary, this simply cannot logically be the case, once proper exegesis is undertaken. Apart from the different meanings of the specific word used, as shown, grace is possessed in different measure by different believers, as seen elsewhere in Scripture:

2 Peter 3:18 But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be the glory both now and to the day of eternity. Amen.

Ephesians 4:7 But grace was given to each of us according to the measure of Christ’s gift. (cf. Acts 4:33, Rom 5:20, 6:1, James 4:6, 1 Pet 5:5, 2 Peter 1:2)

The “freely bestowed” grace of Ephesians 1:6, then, cannot possibly be considered the equivalent of that “fullness of grace” applied to Mary in Luke 1:28 because it refers to a huge group of people, with different gifts and various levels of grace bestowed, as the verses just cited show. Grace is given in different measure to believers. The mass of Christian believers as a whole possess neither the same degree of grace nor of sanctity, and everyone knows this, from experience and revelation alike.

Nor the apostles: “And with great power the apostles gave their testimony to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus, and great grace was upon them all.” (Acts 4:33)

“Great” or “abundant” grace is obviously not the same as “full of grace.” Accordingly, different Greek words are again used, as in all these supposed “disproofs” of the Catholic argument from Luke 1:28: charis te megalē [χάρις τε μεγάλη]. So why does Lucas even bring this up? It’s dumb: as if he wants to maintain that a “glass that is three-quarters full” is the same as a glass that is absolutely full: to the brim.” It just doesn’t fly.

Neither do the readers of the gospel of John: “And from his fulness have we all received, grace upon grace.” (John 1:16)

Nice try but no cigar again. The Greek phrase is plērōmatos . . . charin [πληρώματος . . . χάριν]. If the Holy Spirit, Who inspired the revelation of the Bible, intended for all these passages to have the same exact meaning as Luke 1:28, then the same or equivalent words would have been used. But the fact remains that none of these other “parallels” read the same or mean the same as Luke 1:28. I’m happy to have this opportunity to clarify that and refute the failed analogies once and for all.

If Mary fulfilled all the law, Jesus would not be necessary

It is precisely because no one was able to fulfill all the law that God had to send His only begotten Son “that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life” (Jn.3:16). If Mary, or any human being in the world, had managed to live without committing any sin, fully fulfilling all the law, and had been born without the stain of original sin, then Jesus would be unnecessary . . . 

We totally agree. Mary would have been subject to original sin like all of the rest of us, and would very likely have committed actual sin, if God had not performed a special miracle of freeing her from original sin at conception. So He saved her as much as He saved the rest of us. One can save a person from a pit in two ways: by pulling him or her out of it, or by preventing him or her from ever falling into it in the first place. The “pit” here is a metaphor for sin. The Immaculate Conception is “salvation by prevention.”

For the rest of us who are to be saved, it comes by pulling us out of — redeeming or rescuing us from — the pit of sin that we were already in. That’s why Mary calls God her Savior, too: because His grace saved her just like it saved anyone else who attains salvation and makes it to heaven.

The rest of this section from Lucas is irrelevant, since he fails to understand this fundamental premise that has been discussed in theology for about a thousand years: the notion of “pre-redemption.” Catholics believe Mary was saved only by God’s grace, too: just in a different fashion. She is not “out of the pool” of those saved by Grace Alone. She was a human being like all the rest of us: whom God decreed and chose to make exceptionally holy because she was the Mother of God the Son; the “God-bearer” (Theotokos).

Lucas then repeats his “all have sinned” mantra. I already dealt with that. but here’s one specific (old, tired) aspect that I will directly reply to:

Paul said that there was no one who was completely perfect: “as it is written: “None is righteous, no, not one; [11] no one understands, no one seeks for God. [12] All have turned aside, together they have gone wrong; no one does good, not even one.”” (Romans 3:10-12)

Psalm 14:2-3 The LORD looks down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there are any that act wisely, that seek after God. [3] They have all gone astray, they are all alike corrupt; there is none that does good, [Hebrew, tob] no not one. (cf. 53:1-3; Paul cites this in Rom 3:10-12)

Yet in the immediately preceding Psalm, David proclaims, “I have trusted in thy steadfast love” (13:5), which certainly is “seeking” after God! And in the very next he refers to “He who walk blamelessly, and does what is right” (15:2). Even two verses later (14:5) he writes that “God is with the generation of the righteous.” So obviously his lament in 14:2-3 is an indignant hyperbole and not intended as a literal utterance.

Such remarks are common to Hebrew poetic idiom. The anonymous psalmist in 112:5-6 refers to the “righteous” (Heb. tob), as does the book of Proverbs repeatedly: using the words “righteous” or “good” (11:23; 12:2; 13:22; 14:14, 19), using the same word, tob, which appears in Psalm 14:2-3. References to righteous men are innumerable (e.g., Job 17:9; 22:19; Ps 5:12; 32:11; 34:15; 37:16, 32; Mt 9:13; 13:17; 25:37, 46; Rom 5:19; Heb 11:4; Jas 5:16; 1 Pet 3:12; 4:18, etc.).

With Adam’s death, all men sinned (note: the word anthropos denotes all mankind, obviously not excluding women when saying that “all men have sinned”): “Therefore as sin came into the world through one man and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all men sinned” (Romans 5:12)

That’s referring to original sin, which is precisely what God removed from Mary at conception. That is the miracle and essence of the Immaculate Conception.

3. The Bible only makes an exception for Jesus

Another important point is that the only person for whom the Bible makes an exception is the obvious exception: Jesus.

“For we have not a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet without sin.” (Hebrews 4:15)

“Which of you convicts me of sin? If I tell the truth, why do you not believe me?” (John 8:46)

Neither of these verses rule out the possibility of a sinless person besides Jesus. They merely assert that He was sinless. Lucas’ description of “only” is misguided. It doesn’t follow from what he presents.

Why, then, did no one make the same exception for Mary, especially considering that it was not at all obvious that she was also an exception to the rule?

One did make an exception for Mary: the angel Gabriel in Luke 1:28. He was the one who referred to her in inspired revelation as “full of grace.” And when we analyze in the Bible the notion that grace is the antithesis and overcomer of sin, we conclude that, therefore, being full of grace means being freed from and free of sin. See:

Romans 5:17, 21 If, because of one man’s trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ. . . . [21] so that, as sin reigned in death, grace also might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Romans 6:14 For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace.

2 Corinthians 1:12 . . . holiness and godly sincerity, . . . by the grace of God.

2 Timothy 1:9 who saved us and called us with a holy calling, . . . in virtue of his own purpose and the grace which he gave us in Christ Jesus ages ago,

Lucas has a section called “Mary needed a Savior”; but he exhibits not the slightest inkling of understanding that Catholics fully agree with this (since we, too, revere the Bible as God’s inspired revelation, and read Luke 1:47 just as Protestants do), and how we reason through it. Now (if he reads this) he will understand that, so perhaps he can write a much more serious and worthy analysis next time, instead of forcing me to have to “reinvent the wheel” because he is so profoundly and inexcusably ignorant of historic and Catholic and biblical theology.

In order to be an effective apologist, one must possess this sort of basic knowledge (I’ve been doing Christian apologetics for 41 years, and specifically Catholic apologetics for 32). And until they obtain it, they ought to drop the pretense of being an informed apologist: trying to educate others. Otherwise, it’s the blind leading the blind, similar to the people St. Paul described as those “who will listen to anybody and can never arrive at a knowledge of the truth” (2 Tim 3:7), or whose “god is the belly” (Phil 3:19: one of my very favorite Bible verses!).

6. Mary could not open the seal, nor look at it

In Revelation, John sees a scroll in the form of a scroll written on both sides and sealed with seven seals. He then says:

“and I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, “Who is worthy to open the scroll and break its seals?” [3] And no one in heaven or on earth or under the earth was able to open the scroll or to look into it, [4] and I wept much that no one was found worthy to open the scroll or to into into it. [5] Then one of the elders said to me, “Weep not; lo, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has conquered, so that he can open the scroll and its seven seals.”‘” (Revelation 5:2-5)

Note that no one except Jesus was worthy to open the book or even look at it! John is quite clear in saying that the reason such people could not even look at the book is because they were not worthy of it.

First of all, this doesn’t necessarily have to do with sinlessness. Being “worthy” to do something can also be related to suitability, ability, appropriateness, etc. The word for “worthy” is axios (Strong’s word #514). It has been translated also as “appropriate” (Acts 26:20: NASB) and “fitting” (1 Cor 16:4; 2 Thess 1:3: NASB).

But beyond that preliminary consideration, Jesus opened the scroll because He was God. Lucas is looking at this passage one-dimensionally. The Ignatius Catholic Study Bible (Scott Hahn and Curtis Mitch, 2nd edition, 2010) commented on it:

Christ qualifies as the executor of the Old Covenant (Rev 5:9) with divine authority to administer its blessings and curses. The sealed book refers to Sacred Scripture, for it was opened by no one except Christ, whose death, Resurrection, and Ascension opened access to all the mysteries it contained. (p. 499)

Obviously Mary has none of those divine qualities, and so she (like every other creature) was not “worthy” to open the scroll. She can’t do what only God the Son can do. This contradicts nothing in Catholic Mariology. As the above citation vaguely alludes to, the larger passage literally explains why only Jesus could open the scroll and break the seal. It “authoritatively interprets” the passage under consideration: “Worthy art thou to take the scroll and to open its seals, for thou wast slain and by thy blood didst ransom men for God” (5:9). Isn’t it amazing how much a little biblical context clarifies things? Lucas should try it some time.

The question then becomes: why is Lucas making this issue an anti-Mary polemic, when she clearly has nothing to do with it, since the Bible itself says that Jesus had to do this since only He was “slain” in order for His “blood” to “ransom men for God” (i.e., He alone was the Redeemer and Savior)? Thus all of Lucas’ mocking and tweaking histrionics and melodramatic polemics about Catholic veneration of Mary are utterly and completely irrelevant:

Queen of Heaven, immaculate, totally without any stain of sin throughout her life, the mother of God himself(!) and the wife of the Holy Spirit(!), the helper, the intercessor, the “mother” of all Christians, the perfect “ark”, the mediatrix of graces and even co-redeemer . . . full of grace and a more important person than all the saints and all the angels put together . . . 

Yes she is all that, and (duh!) none of it makes her God (not within a trillion miles), Whom alone could open this seal, per Revelation 5:9. Why does “mother of God” deserve an exclamation point, as if it is some amazing thing? Mary was Jesus’ mother and He was God. Hence, she was the “mother of God”: literally “God-bearer”: which clearly applies only to Jesus, not the Father (neither the father nor the Holy Spirit had a mother: since they are eternal and immaterial spirits). Why is this controversial? It should be only to someone who denies the Trinity or the incarnation.

“Wife of the Holy Spirit” should ruffle no feathers, either. It’s entirely biblical. Scripture speaks in terms of the bride being the Church, and makes analogies between marriage and Christ and His Church. So why should there be controversy about Mary being the spouse of the Holy Spirit? That Jesus’ conception was of the Holy Spirit as a sort of “Father” is plain in the Bible:

Matthew 1:18-20 Now the birth of Jesus Christ took place in this way. When his mother Mary had been betrothed to Joseph, before they came together she was found to be with child of the Holy Spirit; [19] and her husband Joseph, being a just man and unwilling to put her to shame, resolved to divorce her quietly. [20] But as he considered this, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, “Joseph, son of David, do not fear to take Mary your wife, for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit;” (cf. Lk 1:31, 34-35)

Likewise, “spouse of God” is thought to imply an equality with God, when in fact it’s only a limited analogical description based on Mary’s relation to the Holy Spirit in the matter of the conception of Jesus. This description is no more “unbiblical” or non-harmonious with scriptural thought than St. Paul saying “we are God’s fellow workers” (1 Cor 3:9; cf. 2 Cor 6:1), or St. Peter referring to men becoming “partakers of the divine nature” (2 Pet 1:4; cf. 1 Jn 3:2). These are similarly understood as not entailing equality with God. Along these lines, there are many biblical passages about Israel or the Church being the “bride” of God the Father or Jesus Christ, God the Son:

Isaiah 54:5 For your Maker is your husband, the LORD of hosts is his name; . . .

Isaiah 62:5 . . . as the bridegroom rejoices over the bride, so shall your God rejoice over you.

Jeremiah 31:32 . . . my covenant which they broke, though I was their husband, says the LORD. (cf. 3:20)

Hosea 2:16, 19-20 “And in that day, says the LORD, you will call me, `My husband,’ and no longer will you call me, `My Ba’al.’ . . . [19] And I will betroth you to me for ever; . . . (cf. 4:12; 9:1)

Matthew 9:15 And Jesus said to them, “Can the wedding guests mourn as long as the bridegroom is with them?” (cf. Mk 2:19-20; Lk 5:34-35; Mt 25:1-10)

2 Corinthians 11:2 I feel a divine jealousy for you, for I betrothed you to Christ to present you as a pure bride to her one husband.

Ephesians 5:28-29, 32 Even so husbands should love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. [29] For no man ever hates his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, as Christ does the church, . . . [32] This mystery is a profound one, and I am saying that it refers to Christ and the church (cf. Rev 19:7; 21:2; 21:9)

Given all of this biblical data, saying that Mary is the “spouse of God” should not present any difficulty at all to anyone who accepts the Bible as God’s inspired revelation. The only possible objection would come from not understanding what is meant by the phrase in the first place. And as usual, that is Lucas’ problem, and that of the legion of anti-Catholic “Know-Nothings” with whom he hangs around. Willful ignorance and bigotry apparently have a very strong hold on a great number of people. I try my best to educate folks, so they can be freed from this  intolerable burden and yoke that people like Lucas perpetuate. Truth is the liberator!

“E for effort” though, and thanks for the chuckles. I needed some comic relief at this point, having endured only by God’s grace the fathomless imbecilities and vapid, fatuous nonsense that relentlessly dominates this wretched effort from Lucas.  Some may think I exaggerate. But I think it’s an understatement. Finally — thank heavens –, I reach the final section (thanks for your prayers for my patience!):

7. Mary recognized herself as a sinner

Another New Testament evidence that Mary did not consider herself immaculate, but saw herself as a sinner, just like all other human beings, is in Luke 2:24, which says: “and to offer a sacrifice according to what is said in the law of the Lord, “a pair of turtledoves, or two young pigeons.”” 

By the law the iniquity of the woman who had given birth was atoned for in this way:

“And when the days of her purifying are completed, whether for a son or for a daughter, she shall bring to the priest at the door of the tent of meeting a lamb a year old for a burnt offering, and a young pigeon or a turtledove for a sin offering, [7] and he shall offer it before the LORD, and make atonement for her; then she shall be clean from the flow of her blood. This is the law for her who bears a child, either male or female. [8] And if she cannot afford a lamb, then she shall take two turtledoves or two young pigeons, one for a burnt offering and the other for a sin offering; and the priest shall make atonement for her, and she shall be clean.” (Leviticus 12:6-8). [Lucas mistakenly had “2:6-8”]

If Mary were immaculate, the only sacrifice needed would be that of one pigeon for the holocaust, but never of the other, which was for sins. Mary, once again, shows that she recognized herself as a sinner.

The question involves the relationship of ritual uncleanliness to sin and morality. They are two different things. A Catholic priest who goes by the name of AthanasiusOfAlex explains:

In summary, in Israel, so-called “sin” offerings were offered for transgressions against the ritual law, not so much for offenses against the moral law.

Moreover, just as Jesus submitted himself to the baptism of John, even though he did not need to repent of any sins, Mary wished to fulfill the requirements of the Jewish law out of loving obedience to God.

There is, therefore, no contradiction between Mary’s sinlessness (in the moral sense) and her offering a sacrifice to remove the merely ritual impurity associated with childbirth. . . .

In ancient Israel, women were considered ritually unclean for a few weeks after the birth of her child. (It varied according to the sex of the child; a total of 40 days for a boy, and 80 days for a girl. See vv. 2-6.) That essentially meant that they were unable to partake of the liturgical celebrations until their uncleanliness was over, at which time they were to make a sin offering, or either a lamb or a pair of pigeons or turtledoves (vv. 6-8).

But it is important to note that ritual uncleanliness had nothing to do with moral uncleanliness. Leviticus chapter 4 introduces the concept of sin offerings in this way:

And the Lord spoke to Moses, saying, “Speak to the people of Israel, saying, If anyone sins unintentionally in any of the Lord’s commandments about things not to be done, and does any one of them, if it is the anointed priest who sins … [and it goes on to spell out what each group should do] (Lev. 4:1-3).

Sin offering could only be offered for unintentional transgressions and, in general for the removal of ritual uncleanliness. There was, in fact, no provision in the Law for the forgiveness of moral offenses—and this lack was one of the constant sufferings of the People of Israel. . . .

It should be observed that the Law did not make any exceptions. The moral character of the woman was never considered; all women had to make the sin offering after childbirth. . . .

Jesus did something similar when he received the baptism of John. Jesus was also sinless and (unlike Mary) incapable of sinning; and yet he received the baptism of repentance, because it was “fitting … to fulfill all righteousness” (Mt. 3:15). (“How does one reconcile the sinlessness of Mary with her sin offering in Luke 2:24?”Christianity.StackExchange, answer given on 9-15-15)

With regard to the differentiation of moral and ritual impurities or uncleanliness in the Old Testament, in RSV, the word “unwittingly” is applied 13 times to sins where the person was unaware of having committed them. Peter Turner offered another answer on the same web page, on 5-4-18:

Archbishop Fulton Sheen addresses this in his Life of Christ. He notes that this is akin to the Circumcision of Jesus, he says these are two sides sin, one “the necessity of enduring pain to expiate for it” and the “need for purification”. He says that Jesus didn’t need to be circumcised because He was God and she didn’t need to be purified because she was conceived without sin. But, to show “this Child’s dedication to the Father was absolute, and would lead Him to the Cross” all those events took place.

Pastor Ricky Kurth, in his article, “Did Christ Offer Animal Sacrifices?” (Berean Bible Society) offers further analogies of the sinless Christ also participating in such Mosaic rituals:

[T]he Law required men to keep the seven feasts of Leviticus 23, each of which involved an animal sacrifice, and we know the Lord kept Israel’s feasts (Luke 22:15; John 7:2,10). These sacrifices were offered for the people of Israel as a whole, and He was one of the people, and so in this way He identified with them with animal sacrifices.

See also: Protestant Claim: “Mary was a Sinner Because She Offered a Sacrifice” [Kris Smith, Da Pacem Domine, 3-15-20].

I rest my case.

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Photo credit: Immaculate Conception (1635), by Francisco de Zurbarán (1598-1664) [public domain / Wikimedia Commons]

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Summary: Brazilian Protestant apologist Lucas Banzoli foolishly attacks the sinlessness of the Blessed Virgin Mary by absurdly battling several imaginary “Mariological straw men.”

 

September 8, 2022

Lucas Banzoli is a very active Brazilian anti-Catholic polemicist, who holds to basically a Seventh-Day Adventist theology, whereby there is no such thing as a soul that consciously exists outside of a body, and no hell (soul sleep and annihilationism). This leads him to a Christology which is deficient and heterodox in terms of Christ’s human nature after His death. He has a Master’s degree in theology, a degree and postgraduate work in history, a license in letters, and is a history teacher, author of 25 books, as well as blogmaster (but now inactive) for six blogs. He’s active on YouTube.

The words of Lucas Banzoli will be in blue. I use RSV for the Bible passages unless otherwise indicated.

This is my 20th refutation of articles written by Lucas Banzoli. As of yet, I haven’t received a single word in reply to any of them (or if Banzoli has replied to anything, anywhere, he certainly hasn’t informed me of it). Readers may decide for themselves why that is the case.

*****

I’m replying to a portion of Lucas’ article, “Maria pecou?” [Did Mary sin? ] (2-5-15).

4. Mary thought Jesus was “out of his mind”

If I ask you if it is a sin for a person to think that Jesus was crazy, you would certainly say yes. This is not just a sin, but one of the most grievous – even though this unbelief is temporary and not permanent. Let us read the following biblical text:

[Lucas’ Portugese translation, rendered into English] “When his relatives heard about it, they went out to seize him, for they said, ‘He is beside himself’” (Mark 3:21)

Mark 3:21 (RSV) And when his family heard it, they went out to seize him, for people were saying, “He is beside himself.”

Of course the Papists will take Mary out of the picture and say that only Jesus’ brothers (oops, I mean cousins!) were present on this occasion. But that is not what the biblical text says. Analyzing the context, we see that these family members were his mother and brothers, and not just his brothers:

Mark 3:31 (RSV) And his mother and his brothers came; and standing outside they sent to him and called him.

Therefore, Jesus’ mother was also part of Jesus’ relatives who were outside the house, sending for him because they thought Jesus was “out of his mind”, that is, crazy. If that’s not a sin, I don’t know what is!

Note the italicized and bolded word “people” above, in the RSV translation. This is key to understanding this incident and the two passages brought forth by Lucas. There is dispute even about who was making this claim of Jesus’ supposed craziness or mental instability: was it his relatives or the scribes?: whose opinion of Jesus was reported in the next verse:

Mark 3:22 And the scribes who came down from Jerusalem said, “He is possessed by Be-el’zebul, and by the prince of demons he casts out the demons.” (cf. Jn 10:20-21)

Context highly suggests to me that “people” (or “they”) in Mark 3:21 is indeed specifically referring to the scribes, since we know that they thought He was demon-possessed. They alone are described as having this utterly hostile view, not the masses, who, except in Nazareth, generally were in Jesus’ favor.  It’s not just Catholics who think the reference was not to Jesus’ family. Bengel’s Gnomen commented:

ἔλεγον, they were saying) the messengers [not the relatives] from whom his relatives heard of His earnestness.—ὅτι ἐξέστηHe is beside Himself) By this word they were attributing to Him excess of ardour, overwhelming His intellect, but it was falsely that they attributed this to Him, as Festus did to Paul; Acts 26:24Thou art mad.

Johann Albrecht Bengel (1687-1752), according to Wikipedia, “was a Lutheran pietist clergyman and Greek-language scholar known for his edition of the Greek New Testament and his commentaries on it.” So he understood the Greek text, and deemed that the reference to Jesus being crazy did not come from His family. This isn’t Catholic bias in favor of Mary, but the scholarly opinion of a Lutheran Greek scholar as to what the text is expressing in the first place.

In this understanding, the text is simply construed as His family coming out to remove Him from hostile enemies, who were massively misunderstanding Him, accusing, and perhaps becoming violent (as at Nazareth, when His critics tried to throw Him over a cliff). Hence, there would be no necessary implication (in this particular passage and incident) of His family’s (let alone Mary’s) disbelief in Him. They were concerned for His safety. Other English translations convey what I believe to be the true sense of the passage:

NRSV When his family heard it, they went out to restrain him, for people were saying, “He has gone out of his mind.”

Good News / (TEV) When his family heard about it, they set out to take charge of him, because people were saying, “He’s gone mad!”

Moffatt . . . . . . for men were saying, “He is out of his mind.”

Phillips . . . for people were saying, “He must be mad!”

NEB . . . for people were saying that he was out of his mind.

Easy-to-Read Version (ERV) . . . They went to get him because people said he was crazy.

Mounce Reverse Interlinear . . . for people were saying, “He is out of his mind.”

Methodist Drew S. Holland, Assistant Professor of Religion and Philosophy at the University of Tennessee, in a fascinating and thought-provoking 26-page article devoted to Mark 3:21 (“The Meaning of Ἐξέστη in Mark 3:21”: The Journal of Inductive Biblical Studies 4/1:6-31 [Winter 2017] ) concurs with my interpretation as to who was making the claim in question about Jesus. Holland (surprisingly) vigorously  contends that the text doesn’t even have to do with Jesus’ alleged madness, but that’s another question altogether. My concern is to identify who made the claim in the first place. He concurs with me in that respect:

[I]t is the crowd, not οἱ παρ’ αὐτοῦ, who makes this claim about Jesus. (p. 6)

I argue here for a reading of Mark 3:21b that may be translated: “And having heard, the ones near him [the disciples or his family] went out to take hold of him; for they [the crowd] were saying . . .” (p. 9)

As with Mark 3:21, there is no condemnation of Jesus by his family in 3:31, . . . we cannot say that the connection of these two verses indicate that Jesus’s family misunderstands him. (p. 14)

We no longer need to be caught up in the debate about whether Jesus’s disciples or his family make this unflattering claim about him, because neither does. Rather, it is the crowd that does so . . . (p. 15)

Dr. Holland gives his interesting opinion as to why Jesus’ family (or friends) came to “sieze” Him (Mk 3:21):

The second pattern is that Jesus’s disciples always protect him from an adoring crowd, not an upset one. This is present in Mark 3:9 [“And he told his disciples to have a boat ready for him because of the crowd, lest they should crush him”: RSV]; 6:36; 8:4; 10:48; and 14:47. Although the identity of οἱ παρ’ αὐτοῦ in Mark 3:21 is often debated, nearly all commentators agree that it is Jesus who is seized and that either his disciples or his family is protecting him from the crowd. Where scholarship has failed in this respect is the reason for seizing Jesus. But, it would not be Markan style to indicate that they restrained him from an irate crowd and there is nothing in the context to indicate this. Rather, they restrained Jesus because the crowd adored him and wanted to come closer to this miracle worker. This sets the stage for the crowd’s positive reaction to Jesus, which the scribes soon attempt to squelch. (p. 25)

I’m not sure I agree with this. I’d have to think about it a lot more. But this does again (for my present purposes) confirm that His family didn’t think He was nuts. They were simply trying to remove Him from the dangers of a crowd: whether an adoring one (that can still be dangerous) or a small (i.e., the scribes) or larger hostile portion of the crowds.

Even in the translations that have “they were saying.” etc. (as very many do), it’s a question of who “they” refers to. It can still be read as others besides the family. The 1953 Catholic Commentary, edited by Dom Bernard Orchard, has some very good commentary on the passage:

The usual interpretation is that relatives (or followers) of Christ, disturbed by reports, came out to take charge of him. The following points are to be noted. (1) The phrase οἱ παραὐτοῦ does not necessarily mean relatives (friends). It has a wider usage which would include disciples, followers, members of a household. It is not certain that the persons designated by this phrase are the same as ‘his mother and brethren’, 31. Even if they are, there is no reason for thinking that our Lady shared in the sentiments of the others, though she would naturally wish to be present when the welfare of her divine Son was in question. (2) ‘For they said’, rather, ‘For people were saying’. If this be correct, then 21refers to reports which reached Christ’s friends, not to an expression of opinion by them.

I readily grant that it’s certainly possible that some of Jesus’ relatives — thinking with the carnal mind that virtually everyone possessed before Pentecost — may have vastly misunderstood Him. If so, nothing in that contradicts what Catholics believe. We know that there was some unbelief among His relatives, whom I believe were His cousins, based on many arguments that I have repeatedly defended (“For even his brothers did not believe in him”: John 7:5). But this doesn’t include Mary, nor can any passage be found that directly implies any disbelief in Mary about her Son and His status as God Incarnate and Messiah. She knew about that from the time of the Annunciation.

“Unbelief” in Jesus — in any event — was common before the indwelling of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost, and was frequently exhibited even by His disciples, as I commented upon at length in one paper. So this ought not surprise us in the least that some of Jesus’ relatives fell into it (including possibly in the passage under consideration). In any event, there is no hint of evidence that Mary was among these nonbelievers. It’s sheer speculation based on an unimpressive argument from silence.

It would be like saying, “the twelve disciples all believed in Jesus and never ceased doing so.” We know that one, Judas Iscariot, ultimately did not. Or, “no disciple ever doubted that Jesus was risen after hearing reports that He was.” Again, we know that Thomas did doubt (John 20), though it was short-lived. One can’t determine all particulars of beliefs of those in a group, with sweeping statements or mere speculations.

Likewise, by the same logic, one can’t determine from “When his family heard about this, they went to take charge of him, for they said, “He is out of his mind” (Mk 3:21, NIV) — even if we accept this rendering of the passage (which I don’t), and Mary is mentioned as being with them ten verses later –,  that Mary was included in the opinion. There’s simply not enough information. It remains an argument from silence. We could know this for sure only as a result of a biblical passage (if there had been one) like the following: “When his mother heard about this, she went to take charge of him, for she said, ‘He is out of his mind’”.

That would be conclusive, and no one could deny its clear meaning. But that’s not what the passage (in any translation or interpretation) positively asserts, and so it remains speculation and an argument from silence: in which case anyone is equally justified in believing that she did not think that, as they are in thinking that she did. We don’t have enough information (here or anywhere in the New Testament) to decisively claim that she thought negatively about Jesus.

And that remains true about Mark 3:21 regardless of whether one thinks that Mary was sinless (as Catholics do) or not. It’s a matter of logic and exegesis. The burden of proof is on the Protestant to try to prove a “sinful Mary.” Lucas has failed to do so here, in his shoddy, epistemologically inadequate, blasphemous, and slanderous anti-Catholic thinking. Shame on him! This is bearing false witness (a grave sin), and against no less than the Blessed Virgin Mary, the Mother of God the Son.

***

Practical Matters: Perhaps some of my 4,000+ free online articles (the most comprehensive “one-stop” Catholic apologetics site) or fifty books have helped you (by God’s grace) to decide to become Catholic or to return to the Church, or better understand some doctrines and why we believe them.

Or you may believe my work is worthy to support for the purpose of apologetics and evangelism in general. If so, please seriously consider a much-needed financial contribution. I’m always in need of more funds: especially monthly support. “The laborer is worthy of his wages” (1 Tim 5:18, NKJV). 1 December 2021 was my 20th anniversary as a full-time Catholic apologist, and February 2022 marked the 25th anniversary of my blog.

PayPal donations are the easiest: just send to my email address: apologistdave@gmail.com. You’ll see the term “Catholic Used Book Service”, which is my old side-business. To learn about the different methods of contributing, including 100% tax deduction, etc., see my page: About Catholic Apologist Dave Armstrong / Donation InformationThanks a million from the bottom of my heart!

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Photo credit: The Annunciation (1644), by Philippe de Champaigne (1602-1674) [public domain / Wikimedia Commons]

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Summary: Brazilian Protestant apologist Lucas Banzoli attacks Mary, in claiming that she thought Jesus was crazy, based on inconclusive exegesis and an argument from silence.

September 5, 2022

Lucas Banzoli is a very active Brazilian anti-Catholic polemicist, who holds to basically a Seventh-Day Adventist theology, whereby there is no such thing as a soul that consciously exists outside of a body, and no hell (soul sleep and annihilationism). This leads him to a Christology which is deficient and heterodox in terms of Christ’s human nature after His death. He has a Master’s degree in theology, a degree and postgraduate work in history, a license in letters, and is a history teacher, author of 25 books, as well as blogmaster (but now inactive) for six blogs. He’s active on YouTube.

The words of Lucas Banzoli will be in blue. I use RSV for the Bible passages unless otherwise indicated.

This is my 17th refutation of articles written by Lucas Banzoli. As of yet, I haven’t received a single word in reply to any of them (or if Banzoli has replied to anything, anywhere, he certainly hasn’t informed me of it). Readers may decide for themselves why that is the case.

*****

I’m replying to Lucas’ article, “E não a conheceu até que…” [“And knew her not until…” ] (8-16-12)

Matthew 1:24-25 (NRSV) . . . Joseph . . . took her as his wife, [25] but had no marital relations with her [RSV: “knew her not”] until she had borne a son . . .

The Catholic Church traditionally teaches the dogma of Mary’s perpetual virginity, according to which Jesus was an only child and Mary never had any other children besides him, and Jesus’ brothers were merely cousins. As it will be too extensive to deal with all the points that involve this dogma and to refute one by one each of the aberrations that are preached by the Roman Church, I will restrict myself to dealing with a single biblical passage, which for me is enough to decide the subject [Matthew 1:25].

It’s not “enough” in and of itself at all, as I will prove.

If Matthew had meant to imply that Joseph never “knew” Mary, he would have simply written that “he never knew her,” not that he just didn’t know her “until” Jesus was born.

He would have this option ready, at hand, which could be perfectly utilized if he wanted to defend the dogma of the “perpetual virginity of Mary”, and he would end this question once and for all.

There is a place for speculation about “what should have been written if specific view x is to be regarded as true” or what I call humorously  “coulda woulda shoulda theology [or exegesis]”. I’ve done it myself on occasion (even in the last few days), and it’s fun. But of course, it’s always an argument from silence (argumentum ex silentio), which doesn’t carry all that much weight in argumentation and logic.

Hence, Sven Bernecker and Duncan Pritchard, in The Routledge Companion to Epistemology (Routledge, 2010) state that “arguments from silence are, as a rule, quite weak; there are many examples where reasoning from silence would lead us astray” (pp. 64–65). In the final analysis, we can only deal with what the biblical text actually asserts and the possible meaning and its interpretation of any given passage.

But, on the contrary, he makes a point of emphasizing that the time they reserved was the one determined until the birth of Jesus, as he would have to be born of a virgin, to fulfill the prophetic Scriptures (Mt.1:23; Is. 7:14).

Yes, He had to be born of a virgin (all Christians agree about that). But what isn’t often considered is the question: why did Joseph abstain from marital relations for the entire pregnancy if in fact he had marital relations with the Blessed Virgin Mary after Jesus’ birth? This wouldn’t affect the virgin birth because it would have occurred after Jesus was conceived. Nor would anyone know whether it had happened or not.

Rabbinic Judaism did not forbid sexual relations during the whole of pregnancy (especially not the final three months). I think we can safely assume that something of that sort was the custom of the Jews of Jesus’ time. So why did Joseph do this? There is no plausible reason to do so, other than the fact that he intended to never have relations with her (she being the Mother of God). Sometimes the most effective and elegant arguments are the small ones like this (that one could almost not notice at all).

Writing against Helvidius, St. Jerome provocatively asked (making precisely the present argument):

Why then did Joseph abstain at all up to the day of birth? He will surely answer, Because of the Angel’s words, “That which is born in her, &c.” He then who gave so much heed to a vision as not to dare to touch his wife, would he, after he had heard the shepherds, seen the Magi, and known so many miracles, dare to approach the temple of God, the seat of the Holy Ghost, the Mother of his Lord?

Perhaps Lucas (if he ever answers any of my critiques of his work) can offer a plausible explanation to me and our readers, as to why Joseph did that.

He could also have written the same as was said regarding Michal, who “had no children until the day she died” (2 Sam.6:23). With that, he would be making it clear that she had not generated children during her entire existential period (“until her death”).

He “could” have done a lot of things, but that’s neither here nor there, since it is the weak fallacy of an argument from silence. 2 Samuel 6:23 actually supports the Catholic interpretation of “until” in Matthew 1:25 because it perfectly illustrates that “until” can and does (in some instances in the Bible) refer to events up to certain point referred to, but not after. In this case, it couldn’t refer to events after, since Michal died and could no longer possibly have children.

That the “until” is conclusive proof that Mary had other children besides Jesus, plus the fact that the evangelist Matthew could well have written differently that was intended to defend the dogma and not put it in doubt, comes from the fact that on several other occasions this same term appears in the New Testament, and the text leaves no doubt that “until” marks the end of one event to give way to another. [he provides Rev 2:25, 1 Cor 11:26, Acts 4:3, Mt 17:9 as examples of this dynamic] . . . Again, the “until” marks the end of an event, designating its limit. 

With so much overwhelming biblical evidence that “until” sets a boundary that is passed with the end of the restriction, why should we think that it is only different in the case of Matthew 1:25? What occurs in the text of Matthew 1:25 is strictly the same structure that occurs in the texts that we have just passed.

We do because there are other examples (conveniently ignored by Lucas) where this pattern is not present. Such variation for until and the Greek it translates either exists in Scripture or it does not. I will shortly show that it does. Once that is established, then Lucas can no longer deny that it ever happens; nor can he deny the possibility that it happened similarly in Matthew 1:25.

That changes everything in the debate. Perhaps that’s why he chose to totally ignore any counter-examples: in order to keep his readers in the dark, and ignorant. I’m not impressed, and I dare say many other people won’t be, either, when they read this critique of such a pitiable, cynical “research” methodology.

The fact that Matthew also adds that Mary gave birth to her “firstborn” (v.25) also indicates that she had other children.

It does not at all. It simply means He was her first son to be born. Hence, God Himself defines the term in Numbers 8:16: “all that open the womb, the first-born . . .” (cf. Ex 13:1-2).  These children “open the womb” whether they later have siblings or not. The two concepts are distinct. When our oldest son Paul was born, he was our “firstborn.” And he would remain the firstborn, whether we had any other children or not, just as our first grandchild (a girl) remains the first and the oldest, whether or not our two married sons and their wives have any more.

Our third grandchild and first grandson (due around Halloween in a little less than two months from this writing) will remain our “firstborn [and oldest] grandson” whether or not any more are born. Additional children don’t change those facts.

Otherwise, he would simply have written that Jesus was his “only son”, as the Bible often states in other cases, where in fact there were no other brothers in the family (Lk.7:12; Lk.9:38). , as in the case of the widow of Nain, whose “only son” (Lk.7:12) had died, and of the man who wanted to cast out the devil from his son, because he was her “only son” (Lk.9:38). ).

More arguments from silence . . . No need to dwell on them, as they have no force.

In short, Matthew neither writes that Joseph never had relations with her,

Nor did he write that he did, as we shall shortly see, in four analogous instances of “until” that carry the same meaning that Catholics maintain is the case at Matthew 1:25.

nor that Jesus was her only son.

That’s true, in terms of that phrase, but on the other hand, it’s also true that Jesus’ “brethren” in Scripture are never called the children of Mary, and Mary is never called their mother, as in the case of Jesus (e.g., Jn 2:1; 19:25). In at least two instances, these “brothers” were mentioned but Mary wasn’t called their mother; only Jesus‘ mother (Mk 6:3; Acts 1:14). Moreover, Luke 2:41-42 states:

Now his parents went to Jerusalem every year at the feast of the Passover. [42] And when he was twelve years old, they went up according to custom;

We don’t see a word about any other children, who certainly would have gone with Joseph and Mary to observe the Passover in Jerusalem. This means that if Mary had other children, there was at least a twelve-year gap, which is hardly likely, feasible, or plausible in those days, with a young married woman of approximately 16-28 years of age. Generally (as it continued to be the case up to very recent times), wives had children one after another.

Then afterwards, the text states that “he went down with them and came to Nazareth” (2:51). If the other supposed siblings had also been there, the text would have presumably read something like, “he went down with his brothers and sisters and parents and came to Nazareth”. But it didn’t, and we submit that it didn’t because those siblings didn’t exist.

Finally, we have the strong evidence that there were no siblings of Jesus at the time He was crucified, since He committed the care of His mother to John: “the disciple whom he loved” (Jn 19:26-27). This would certainly not have happened (particularly in Jewish culture at that time), had any supposed siblings been alive. Lucas argues elsewhere that this person was actually James, and a literal sibling, but the exegetical arguments for his being John are very strong.

These are all arguments from silence, too — I hasten to add –, but if someone skeptical of Mary’s perpetual virginity insists on making them, we can also return the favor. Goose and gander . . . And these things are harder to explain than the “until” Mary and Joseph scenario, where we have perfectly analogous biblical counter-examples of “until” that cast into serious doubt the Protestant skeptical position. In other words, Catholic arguments from silence in this respect (if they must be made) are much better than Protestant ones.

Just as Jesus was the “firstborn among many brethren” (Rom.8:29) in the spiritual realm, he was also the firstborn of many brethren in the natural realm (Mk.6:3). As such, Catholic claims against the validity of Matthew 1:25 are baseless, as are their attempts to defend a dogma that has no biblical framework to back it up.

It’s not just “Catholic claims.” Here are two pretty famous non-Catholics who think Lucas’ (and later — not early — Protestantism’s) theory about Matthew 1:25 and “until” is bunk, too:

When Matthew says that Joseph did not know Mary carnally until she had brought forth her son, it does not follow that he knew her subsequently; on the contrary, it means that he never did know her . . . This babble . . . is without justification . . . he has neither noticed nor paid any attention to either Scripture or the common idiom. (Martin Luther, Luther’s Worksvol. 45:206, 212-213 / That Jesus Christ was Born a Jew [1523] )

The inference he [Helvidius] drew from it was, that Mary remained a virgin no longer than till her first birth, and that afterwards she had other children by her husband . . . No just and well-grounded inference can be drawn from these words . . . as to what took place after the birth of Christ. He is called ‘first-born’; but it is for the sole purpose of informing us that he was born of a virgin . . . What took place afterwards the historian does not inform us . . . No man will obstinately keep up the argument, except from an extreme fondness for disputation. (John Calvin, Calvin’s Commentaries, translated by William Pringle, Grand Rapids, Michigan: Eerdmans, 1949, vol. I, 107)

And now, to conclude, and as promised, here are four examples of the use of “until” in Scripture that are analogous to the Catholic interpretation of Matthew 1:25:

Acts 8:40 But Philip was found at Azo’tus, and passing on he preached the gospel to all the towns till he came to Caesare’a. 

Did Philip never preach again after he arrived in Caesarea? No. In Acts 21:8 he’s called “Philip the evangelist.” So he was still doing the same stuff. But hey, Lucas contended that there is “overwhelming biblical evidence” that ” ‘until’ marks the end of an event, designating its limit.” Therefore, employing his “analysis”, Philip should have retired and set up a lemonade stand by the sea. “Till” in this verse translates the same Greek word as the “until” of Matthew 1:25: ἕως (heós): Strong’s word #2193.

Acts 25:21 But when Paul had appealed to be kept in custody for the decision of the emperor, I commanded him to be held until I could send him to Caesar.”

Was Paul, therefore, not held in jail after he met Caesar, because “until” is in this passage? No. He was to be held in custody while traveling (Acts 27:1) and also when he arrived in Rome (Acts 28:16). But Lucas has informed us that there is “overwhelming biblical evidence” that “‘until’ marks the end of an event, designating its limit.” So according to him, Paul must have been set free. Not! “Until” in this verse is, again, the same Greek word as the “until” of Matthew 1:25: heós.

1 Corinthians 15:25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet.

Will Christ’s reign therefore come to an end? Nope. Luke 1:33 informs us: “he will reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there will be no end” (cf. Rev 11:15). This verse (so Lucas thinks, if he is consistent) would entail His reign ending at some point. 

1 Timothy 4:13 Till I come, attend to the public reading of scripture, to preaching, to teaching.

Does this mean that Timothy would or should stop preaching after Paul arrives? After all, Lucas says that there is “overwhelming biblical evidence” that ” ‘until’ marks the end of an event, designating its limit.” Therefore, employing his “reasoning”, Timothy ought to have ceased preaching and teaching when Paul showed up. But of course he didn’t, and Paul later commissioned him to do precisely those things (see 2 Tim 4:2, 5). “Till” translates the same Greek word as Matthew 1:25 again (heós).

My friend and fellow apologist John Martignoni provided a good summary, in writing about the same topic:

[T]he word “until” does not always and everywhere mean a change of circumstance.  Yes, that is the most common usage – Condition A is true until this point of time then it is no longer true – but it is not the only usage.  As I have clearly shown, from the Bible, “until” can also just be referring to what happens up to a certain point in time, without implying what happens after that point in time.  It does not automatically mean that the condition changed after that point in time.  So, the fact that Joseph did not know Mary “until” Jesus was born, does not necessarily infer anything about what happened between Joseph and Mary after Jesus was born.

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Photo credit: Saint Joseph and the Christ Child (1640), by Guido Reni (1575-1642) [public domain / Wikipedia]

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Summary: Brazilian Protestant apologist Lucas Banzoli vainly makes a failed linguistic argument that the “until” in Matthew 1:25 means that Mary was not a perpetual virgin.

September 2, 2022

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Lucas Banzoli is a very active Brazilian anti-Catholic polemicist, who holds to basically a Seventh-Day Adventist theology, whereby there is no such thing as a soul that consciously exists outside of a body, and no hell (soul sleep and annihilationism). This leads him to a Christology which is deficient and heterodox in terms of Christ’s human nature after His death. He has a Master’s degree in theology, a degree and postgraduate work in history, a license in letters, and is a history teacher, author of 25 books, as well as blogmaster (but now inactive) for six blogs. He’s active on YouTube.

The words of Lucas Banzoli will be in blue. I used RSV for the Bible passages.

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I’m replying to Lucas’ article, “Quem é a Maria “mãe de Tiago e José”, que estava ao pé da cruz e visitou o túmulo vazio?” (4-30-20) [Who is Mary “mother of James and Joseph”, who was at the foot of the cross and visited the empty tomb?]. His site provides an English translation.

[F]our (?) women . . . went to the tomb early on the morning of the resurrection, namely Salome (Mk 16:1), Joan [Joanna] (Luke 24:10), Mary Magdalene (Mt 28:1) and someone named Mary who is described as the mother of James and Joseph, according to Matthew and Mark (Mt 27:56; Mk 15:40), or simply the mother of James, according to the account of Luke (Luke 24:10).

Matthew 13:55-56 (RSV)  Is not this the carpenter’s son? Is not his mother called Mary? And are not his brothers James and Joseph and Simon and Judas? [56] And are not all his sisters with us? . . .

Mark 6:3 “Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary and brother of James and Joses and Judas and Simon, and are not his sisters here with us?” . . .

Galatians 1:19 But I saw none of the other apostles except James the Lord’s brother.

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Matthew 27:55-56 There were also many women there [at the crucifixion], looking on from afar, who had followed Jesus from Galilee, ministering to him;  [56] among whom were Mary Mag’dalene, and Mary the mother of James and Joseph, . . .

Mark 15:40-41, 47 There were also women looking on from afar, among whom were Mary Mag’dalene, and Mary the mother of James the younger and of Joses, and Salo’me, [41] who, when he was in Galilee, followed him, and ministered to him; . . . [47] Mary Mag’dalene and Mary the mother of Joses saw where he was laid.

John 19:25 . . . standing by the cross of Jesus were his mother, and his mother’s sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Mag’dalene.

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Matthew 10:3 / Mark 3:18 / Luke 6:15 / Acts 1:13 . . . James the son of Alphaeus . . .

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Matthew 27:61 Mary Mag’dalene and the other Mary were there, sitting opposite the sepulchre.

Matthew 28:1 Mary Mag’dalene and the other Mary went to see the sepulchre.

Mark 16:1 And when the sabbath was past, Mary Mag’dalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salo’me, bought spices, so that they might go and anoint him.

Luke 24:10 Now it was Mary Mag’dalene and Jo-an’na and Mary the mother of James and the other women with them who told this to the apostles;

Yes, Jesus was a brother (adelphos in Greek, not anepsios, cousin) of a James and a Joseph, and, of course, he was the son of Mary. We have here, therefore, a Mary who was the mother of at least seven children (including Jesus and at least two sisters, as they are mentioned in the plural), strictly following the Jewish custom of having many children (which was seen as a blessing divine, perhaps the greatest a woman could receive, judging by the OT accounts involving Anne, Rachel, etc.).

But Catholics, believers in the dogma of Mary’s perpetual virginity, dispute this idea, claiming that James and Joseph were Jesus’ cousins, children of Mary’s sister who happened to be also called Mary. They cling to the following text from John [19:25],

That’s not all we “cling” to. Matthew 27:56 refers to “Mary the mother of James and Joseph”. Mark 15:40 references “Mary the mother of James the younger and of Joses.” Mark 16:1 and Luke 24:10 likewise both mention “Mary the mother of James.” When we consider all relevant verses together (see above), we understand that this is the same Mary as “the other Mary” (Mt 27:61; 28:1) and “Mary the wife of Clopas” (Jn 19:25), who is a different person than “his [Jesus’] mother” (also Jn 19:25).

That’s quite significant biblical data to bring to bear on the topic.  It’s not just us notorious Catholics sitting up in an old tower, making up things out of whole cloth. That’s the methodology of Protestants, who invented out of their imaginations the fairy tales of sola Scriptura and sola fide (certainly not derived from the Bible, where they never appear, and where the second notion is expressly condemned: “You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone“: James 2:24; “faith apart from works is dead”: James 2:26).

But the Catholic view on the perpetual virginity of Mary is derived from strong biblical evidence. This is why all of the original Protestant “reformers” agreed with us on the topic, as did most Protestants for a few hundred years, until theological liberalism and biblical skepticism influenced them to start doubting it without cause.

As I point out in my article on this text, the Greek presents an ambiguity recognized by any linguist: it does not make it clear whether «Mary, wife of Clopas» was just a specification of who was Mary’s sister (as Catholics argue), or if was in fact another person quoted in the logical sequence of the text. In other words, in the Catholic reading we have three women at the foot of the cross: (1) the mother of Jesus, (2) the sister of Jesus’ mother, who was Mary of Clopas, and (3) Mary Magdalene. Already in the Protestant reading, we have four women: (1) the mother of Jesus, (2) the sister of the mother of Jesus, (3) Mary of Clopas, (4) Mary Magdalene.

Catholics think additional women besides the Blessed Virgin Mary, Mary Clopas, and Mary Magdalene were at the cross, because the Bible says so: “the mother of the sons of Zeb’edee” (Mt 27:56), Salome (Mk 15:40), possibly other unnamed women (implied by the phrase “among whom” in Mark 15:40 and “many women” in Matthew 27:55), and likely other women and men who were described as a “great multitude” who “followed” Jesus as He carried His cross (Lk 23:27). And of course, St. John was there, too (Jn 19:26).

If Lucas wants to quibble about the Greek grammar, and wrangle about whether this is referring to three or four women (equally able and pious scholars of all stripes differ on the question), I would point out that it’s irrelevant to our immediate discussion, since massive biblical evidence (again, see above) proves that there was this “other Mary” who was the mother of James and Joseph, whom elsewhere are referred to as “brothers” of the Lord.

Whether this is Mary wife of Clopas or not doesn’t change the fact that some other woman named Mary, besides the mother of Jesus, had these two sons: thus proving that they were not Jesus siblings, but first cousins or more distant relatives (or possibly step-brothers) who were part of Jesus’ extended family or kin. In other words, in determining whether Jesus had blood brothers / siblings or not, the identity of Mary Clopas is not a “dealbreaker.” If she wasn’t “the other Mary” or the mother of James and Joseph the Catholic and traditional Protestant and Orthodox view of Mary’s perpetual virginity would still remain absolutely intact. 

[T]he reason why we should definitely abandon any pretense of seeing the two as sisters is the most obvious: no Jewish father would name two daughters the same . A good observer will notice that the entire Bible mentions thousands of brothers and sisters, but never two with the same name. [his emphases]

Yes, of course not. We all agree on that. The point is that “sister” has a wider latitude of meaning, as Catholics (with undeniable, unarguable support from any and all Greek lexicons) have maintained all along. Adelphe / adelphos in Greek simply is not restricted to the meaning of sibling. So the “sister” of the Blessed Virgin Mary could have been her cousin, sister-in-law, niece, step-sister, aunt, or even distant kinfolk. This was standard Hebrew terminology.

Hence, in the Old Testament, Lot, who was called Abraham’s “brother” (Gen. 14:14), was the son of Haran, Abraham’s sibling (Gen. 11:26–28); therefore, was literally Abraham’s nephew, not his sibling or blood brother. Jacob is, likewise, referred to as the “brother” of Laban, who was literally his uncle (Gen. 29:15). Eleazar’s daughters married their “brethren,” who were the sons of Kish (Eleazar’s literal sibling). These “brethren”, then, were actually their first cousins (1 Chr. 23:21–22).

Jesus Himself uses “brethren” (adelphos) in the non-sibling sense. In Matthew 23:8 (cf. 12:49-50), He calls, for example, the “crowds” and His “disciples” (23:1) “brethren.” In other words, they are each other’s “brothers”: the brotherhood of Christians.

Luke was a Greek Gentile. Paul, though Jewish, was raised in the very cosmopolitan, culturally Greek town of Tarsus. But even so, both still clearly used adelphos many times with the meaning of non-sibling:

  • Luke 10:29 But he, desiring to justify himself, said to Jesus, “And who is my neighbor?”
  • Acts 3:17 “And now, brethren, I know that you acted in ignorance, as did also your rulers.”
  • Acts 7:23, 25-26 “When he was forty years old, it came into his heart to visit his brethren, the sons of Israel.. . . [25] He supposed that his brethren understood that God was giving them deliverance by his hand, but they did not understand. [26] And on the following day he appeared to them as they were quarreling and would have reconciled them, saying, `Men, you are brethren, why do you wrong each other?’”
  • Romans 1:13 I want you to know, brethren,  . . .
  • Romans 9:3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brethren, my kinsmen by race.
  • 1 Thessalonians 1:4 For we know, brethren beloved by God, that he has chosen you;

[I]f this James was really Jesus’ cousin, he would have to be the son of this supposed sister Mary of Jesus’ mother. But the text of John is clear in saying that she was the wife of Clopas, not Alphaeus (John 19:25)! Whenever this James is mentioned in the Bible, he is referred to as the son of Alphaeus, never as the son of Clopas (Luke 6:15; Matt 10:3; Mark 3:18; Acts 1:13). . . . 

Luke would have no reason [possible related reference in Lk 24:18: “Cleopas”] to call this man Alphaeus and then call the same individual by an entirely different name, as if he were going out of his way to confuse his readers.

The great Anglican scholar and bishop J. B. Lightfoot (1828-1889), in his classic commentary The Brethren of the Lord (1865) tackled the question of whether Alphaeus = Clopas:

The identity of Alphaeus and Clopas. These two words, it is said, are different renderings of the same Aramaic name yplx or [Aramaic] (Chalphai), the form Clopas being peculiar to St. John, the more completely grecized Alphaeus taking its place in the other Evangelists. The Aramaic guttural Cheth, when the name was reproduced in Greek, might either be omitted as in Alphaeus, or replaced by a k (or c) as in Clopas. Just in the same way Aloysius and Ludovicus are recognized Latin representatives of the Frankish name Clovis (Clodovicus, Hludovicus, Hlouis).

So this is one possible explanation. Another is that one person was known by two different names [in this case, Clopas and Alphaeus], which is very common in Scripture:

Moses’ father-in-law was known as both Reuel (Ex 2:18) and Jethro (Ex 3:1)

Uzziah (2 Ki 15:32; Mt 1:9) / Azariah (2 Ki 15:1-17; 1 Chr 3:12)

Dorcas / Tabitha (Acts 9:36-40)

“Joseph called Barsab’bas, who was surnamed Justus” (Acts 1:23)

Judas (not Iscariot), one of the twelve disciples, was called Lebbeus (Mt 10:3) and also Thaddeus (Mk 3:18; Mt 10:3)

Matthew / Levi (Mk 2:14; Lk 5:27-29)

The disciple Nathanael (Jn 1:46-47), was also known as Bartholomew (Mt 10:3; Mk 3:18)

St. Peter, even before his name was changed to Peter [“Rock”] (Mt 16:19), which was [Greek] Cephas, derived from Aramaic kephos (Jn 1:40-42; used eight times by St. Paul), was known as Simon (23 times), Simon Peter (19 times), and Simeon (Acts 15:14).

“Simon the Cananaean” (Mt 10:4), one of the twelve disciples, was also known as “Simon who was called the Zealot” (Lk 6:15; Acts 1:13).

Thomas, one of Christ’s Jesus’ original disciples, was also called “the Twin” (Jn 11:16).

Note the variable names even for six of the twelve disciples!

[T]he only Mary who can be the mother of James and Joseph is the mother of Jesus, these being his brothers, exactly according to Mark 6:3.

A frequent objection to this conclusion is when one wonders why Matthew, Mark, and Luke would quote her on these occasions only as the mother of James or as the mother of James and Joseph, instead of calling her the mother of Jesus, as is often the case in the Bible. Before answering that, I have a better question: why on earth would these same evangelists have completely omitted the fact that the mother of Jesus was at the foot of the cross, as John says? Read the texts again. If the Mary mentioned in the synoptics is not the same as the mother Mary of Jesus, it means that the three evangelists simply ignored her presence on Golgotha ​​as if it were unimportant [Jn 19:25]:

The answer to Lucas’ question is easy: there is no need for all the Gospels to include everything. It’s sufficient that one does. There are many things that Scripture mentions only a few times. The virgin birth is only present twice (in Isaiah and Luke 2). Original sin appears just two or three times, and is not very explicitly laid out. The divinity of the Holy Spirit is not that easy to argue from Scripture, though it can be done (and I have done it). 

So only John mentioning this is no biggie. John’s the only one who mentions that he was at the cross, and this is significant, too: the only disciple who was there. His mentioning Jesus’ mother Mary being there is in Scripture, and that is sufficient, whether it’s once or twenty times. There is also a clear distinction to be drawn between merely not mentioning something which is described elsewhere in inspired Scripture, and stating a thing over and over that simply isn’t plausible under Lucas’ ludicrous hypothesis (i.e., the Blessed Virgin Mary repeatedly mentioned as being someone else’s mother without the text mentioning Jesus). 

Lucas’ position is so ridiculous and exegetically untenable, that it illustrates the extreme and desperate lengths that Protestants will go to ignore the obvious, if a position contradicts their own present view. Here is what one has to believe, to adopt his position:

We’d have a scenario where Mary the mother of Jesus is described five times as the mother of Joseph and/or James, and/or Salome  (Mt 27:56; Mk 15:40, 47; 16:1; Lk 24:10), with Jesus not even mentioned alongside them; downright excluded! That makes no sense, as opposed to simply not mentioning something altogether that is already noted elsewhere. Moreover, we would have the Blessed Virgin Mary referred to twice as “the other Mary.” This is asinine! The contexts in which they occur make it all the more absurd to hold such a view.

In Matthew 27:56 and Mark 15:40 we would have to believe that the text is describing Jesus’ mother watching her Son die on the cross, yet it doesn’t call her “his mother” — as John 19:25 does — but rather, Matthew decides to describe her as the “Mary the mother of James and Joseph” and Mark calls her “Mary the mother of James the younger and of Joses, and Salo’me.”

Everyone under the sun is mentioned besides Jesus, Who just happens to be saving the world from its sin on the cross, in agony, while His mother, watching with unimaginable horror, isn’t even  described as “his mother.” That stretches credulity beyond the breaking point. Wherever the truth lies here, it can’t possibly be that insane and, I would add, blasphemous. According to the Bible, and the vast majority of Christians throughout history, blasphemy doesn’t just apply to God, but also to holy people and things, as I have written about.

To draw an analogy, in order to demonstrate how utterly ridiculous Lucas’ reasoning is, suppose the mother of the great American President Abraham Lincoln (Nancy Lincoln) had been present when he was shot and killed in 1865. It so happens that she died in 1818 when he was nine, but this is just a hypothetical, anyway. She was born in 1784 and could have conceivably been there, at age 81. Lincoln had a sister, Sarah, and a brother, Thomas, who tragically died at only three days old.

Now imagine, a reporter noting after Lincoln’s assassination that “Nancy the mother of Sarah and Thomas witnessed the sad event.” That would and could have never happened! It would say, “Lincoln’s mother Nancy was sadly present.” But this way of writing is what Lucas would have us believe about how the evangelists would have described Jesus’ mother at His crucifixion (!).

Equally absurd in Lucas’ proposed scenario is Jesus’ mother being described as “Mary the mother of Joses” when she went and saw where He was buried (Mk 15:47), “Mary the mother of James, and Salo’me” when she was supposedly going to anoint her Son with spices (Mk 16:1), and “Mary the mother of James” when she allegedly reported to the disciples that Jesus’ tomb was empty (Lk 24:10). Ludicrous! It’s downright stupid and outrageous for any serious and pious person (professed Christian) to even consider such things . . .

To top it off, we have to believe that Mary the mother of Jesus would have been called “the other Mary” when mentioned as being with Mary Magdalene: visiting and being at Jesus’ tomb (Mt 27:61; 28:1). It’s claimed that Catholics elevate the Blessed Virgin Mary too much and supposedly worship her? That’s not true, but it is true — as we have just witnessed — that a Protestant like Lucas will insult and denigrate Our Lady and blaspheme against her in this unbelievable manner: all in the effort to deny that she was a perpetual virgin.

She’s so “downgraded” that three of the four Gospel writers supposedly would refuse to refer to her as the mother of Jesus (and not someone else) at His crucifixion, at His tomb, and in the context of reports about the empty tomb. Anyone who is irrational and delusional enough to believe this garbage is truly beyond all hope of persuasion about anything in the Bible or the Catholic faith.

John W. Wenham wrote an excellent article in Evangelical Quarterly in 1975, titled, “The Relatives of Jesus.” He flatly denies Lucas’ theory, and states:

The only clear reference to the mother of Jesus comes from John, who represents her as being near the cross for her son’s farewell and as being escorted from the scene before his death. The other three gospels say that the women watched from a distance and that at least two of the Marys witnessed the burial. The idea that one of these witnesses was the Lord’s mother is almost impossible to reconcile with John’s account of her being taken away “from that hour”. . . .

It has seemed natural to most readers to equate “Mary of Clopas” with “Mary the mother of James and/or Joses” and with “the other Mary”, not with the mother of Jesus. Indeed, seeing there were inescapably three Marys, it seems very odd that the Synoptists (who are quite ready to speak of the mother of Jesus) should identify her in such an obscure manner. The suggested explanations for this disguise seem laboured. In view of the fervid quest for texts to buttress the claims of Marian devotion, it is almost incredible that an appearance to the Lord’s mother on Easter Sunday morning should not have been recognized and seized upon, if such an appearance is in fact being recorded. The description “the other Mary” would provide only the flimsiest veil. That she was not so identified can only mean that there was no tradition to support such identification. . . .

If the equation of “the other Mary” with the mother of Jesus breaks down, then it is almost inevitable that she should be equated with Mary of Clopas.

I did a survey of several Protestant scholarly sources on this question (in a related article) and could find none that positively espoused this crazy theory. The closest I came was a highly tentative statement of Eerdmans Bible Dictionary about the mother of James and Joses: “It is possible but not likely that this Mary was the same person as the mother of Jesus . . .” (p. 697). Hardly a ringing endorsement, is it?

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Practical Matters: Perhaps some of my 4,000+ free online articles (the most comprehensive “one-stop” Catholic apologetics site) or fifty books have helped you (by God’s grace) to decide to become Catholic or to return to the Church, or better understand some doctrines and why we believe them.

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Summary: Brazilian Protestant apologist Lucas Banzoli suggests the most ridiculous hypotheses in order to explain Mary Clopas & to deny the perpetual virginity of Mary.


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