2021-02-01T14:02:04-04:00

This came about when radical Catholic reactionary Steven O’Reilly (who thinks the pope is a heretic) made a reply to me, in an effort to press me to comment further on Amoris Laetitia: Pope Francis’ encyclical from 3-19-16. Previously, yucking it up with fellow pope-basher and advocate of ecclesial defectibility Steve Skojec (who opined that I was “intentionally stupid”) on Twitter, O’Reilly had referred to me  as a purveyor of “crazy labels” and “in denial” and an “apologist” only in quotation marks (that is, not at all) and (my favorite) a member of the club of “Francis toadies”. Can I be a “Jesus toady” too? Sounds about right to me!

Merriam-Webster online defines “toady” as “one who flatters in the hope of gaining favors.” The synonym provided is “sycophant”: defined as “a servile self-seeking flatterer.” The obvious problem with this is that I have gotten back only misery and no end of problems, by defending Pope Francis (in everyday terms, I have “caught hell”), because the fashionable and chic myth and fairy tale today is this false notion that he is a flaming liberal, subversive against the Church, enemy of Catholic moral and theological tradition, and indeed, a heretic.

So by opposing all these lies (and they assuredly, undoubtedly are lies, and I can back my assertions up), I somehow gain “favors” or have any remote “hope” of gaining same? My advocacy of what is the plain dogmatic teaching of Vatican I — not II — (that the pope can never even fall into heresy, let alone promulgate it) has certainly harmed my apostolate, in terms of followers, contributors, online visibility, etc. I clearly gain nothing by this. I’ve paid a big price. But that’s fine with me. I’m happy to do so. It’s my duty and privilege to do it.

If anyone is gaining favors and self-seeking (and I don’t assert this; only rhetorically state it), it is the legion of reactionary pope-bashers like Taylor Marshall, Steve Skojec and One Peter Five, The Remnant, Lifesite, Rorate Caeli, Peter Kwasniewski et al, ad nauseam, who get tons of attention (hits, shares, book sales), and sometimes, tons of money as well (book royalties), for their despicable and harmful efforts. I am simply defending the Holy Father and the institution of the papacy, which I have always thought — in my 30 + years of Catholic apologetics –, was part and parcel of my field; in fact, obligatory.

I defended Pope St. John Paul II when he was attacked and bashed (and he assuredly was), Pope Benedict XVI when he was also trashed (reactionaries now detest him or at least his resignation: feeling a bit like jilted lovers), and I defend Pope Francis when he is lied about and slandered as well. And I will defend the next pope who will also (mark my words) be lied about. The devil is very active in this respect. He knows who to go after.

But now all of a sudden doing that is a “controversial” thing. I’ve been told in a gossipy, cowardly fashion that “many” people (of course not mentioned by name) have a “lower” opinion of me because I defend the Holy Father and the papacy. That’s how low we have sunk in our pathetic time. So insult away! We’ll see in the end (including on Judgment Day itself) who was on the right side of this. I’m happy to let God be my judge, rather than hundreds of thousands of fawning “fans.” Mere filthy lucre or fame and accolades have never been my motivation, and never will be.

Thanks, dear reader, for indulging me and letting me get that off of my chest! Despite these rank insults, a few days ago O’Reilly decided he would become serious and try to engage in actual dialogue (albeit of an obsessive and “one-note tune” nature) with me. The problem was that I had already reiterated over and over (in my counter-reply) that:

I leave those fine-tuned questions mostly to theologians. . . . Fine points are for moral theologians, and neither you nor I are that. . . . I stand by everything he [Dr. Fastiggi] argues. He’s a personal friend of mine, and of unimpeachable orthodoxy. . . . Dr. Fastiggi is editor of the revised Denzinger and Ott both. He’s the man for systematic theology, in my opinion.

In other words, he picked the wrong topic to engage with me. I then linked Dr. Robert Fastiggi’s articles defending the theological and moral orthodoxy of Amoris Laetitia: (one / two / three / four). Undaunted, O’Reilly kept trying to goad me all the more in his combox underneath it:

[Y]our ‘go read Dr. Fastiggi’ is not a sufficient answer. Anyone with common sense can see that. After all, if one were to ask you, a professional apologist, about your opinion of the Petrine Office and the views opposed to it, I assume (and hope) your answer would go beyond simply telling one to ‘go read Karl Keating’ or ‘go look at Matthew 16:18, that is all I need to say.’ If that is your approach to honest, good-faith, apologetical questions; my surprise is not that you have written “2,800 papers and 50 books,” it is that you have written any.

These juvenile tactics don’t work with me. I gave my answer: deferring to a respected theologian. It wasn’t good enough for O’Reilly. That’s his problem, not mine. I have no qualms in expressing that I am not sufficiently qualified to delve into the depths of a particular controversial and complex issue, and that it is best left to the expertise of theologians, canonists, and bishops gathered in synod, as it were. But Amoris Laetitia happens to be a virtual obsession with O’Reilly, by his own report:

I contented myself with wearing out my local archbishop, pastor, friends and family with my screeds over developments in the Church, especially during these past few years following the issuance of Amoris Laetitia. (his “About” page)

Note how he even wore out his own “family.” This is the mark of a fanatic, for sure. But apart from his own overly aggressive shortcomings, we understand that there are a lot of folks out there like O’Reilly who think that Amoris Laetitia is a terrible, heretical document, that sought to overthrow constant Catholic moral and theological tradition. They’re confused and disheartened, yet they need not be at all. We totally disagree with their assessment. There is plenty of clarifying material out there.

In my own effort to soothe fears and hysteria, I have collected many substantive articles from others, who defend the orthodoxy of the document. A search of my collection of 266 pro-Francis articles yields fifteen with “Amoris” in their titles. And there are others in the same collection that deal with the same topic (without “Amoris” in their titles), such as:

Pope Francis’s New Document on Marriage: 12 Things to Know and Share (Jimmy Akin, National Catholic Register, 4-8-16)

Pope Francis Shatters Reformers’ Dreams with ‘Modern Family’ Document (Thomas D. Williams, Breitbart, 4-8-16)

Pope Affirms Traditional Marriage (Bill Donohue, Newsmax, 4-8-16)

Pope Francis’s revolution has been cancelled (Damian Thompson, The Spectator, 4-8-16)

Pope Francis on love in the family (Archbishop Charles J. Chaput, CatholicPhilly.com, 4-14-16)

Pope Francis is a social conservative (Tim Stanley, The Telegraph, 4-18-16)

Pope okays Argentine doc on Communion for divorced and remarried (Inés San Martín, Crux, 9-12-16)

What Pope Francis said about Communion for the divorced-and-remarried (Catholic News Agency, 9-13-16)

Not heretical: Pope Francis’ approval of the Argentine bishops’ policy on invalid marriages (Dr. Jeff Mirus, Catholic Culture, 9-15-16)

Cardinal Schönborn: Pope Francis follows John Paul II’s teaching on communion (Catholic Herald, 4-8-16)

Recent Comments of Pope Francis Should Help to Quiet Papal Critics (Robert Fastiggi, La Stampa / Vatican Insider, 11-28-17)

Pastoral Charity is the Key to Pope Francis’s Endorsement of the Buenos Aires Bishops’ Document (Robert Fastiggi, La Stampa / Vatican Insider, 11-28-17)

So that is at least 27 in-depth articles regarding Amoris Laetitia and closely related issues, that I have provided for my readers. But it’s not good enough for Steven O’Reilly. All he appears to care about is my opinion. Well, just because I appealed to others more knowledgeable than myself on the issue (which is what I always do as an apologist if I feel that others have points to make that are above my pay grade), it doesn’t mean I have completely ignored it, either. A perusal of my own collection of my own 184 defenses of Pope Francis yields eight relevant articles:

Amoris Laetitia: Pope Francis’ “1968 Moment” [4-8-16]

Defenses of Pope Francis’ Amoris Laetitia [4-9-16]

More Defenses of Amoris Laetitia & Pope Francis [4-26-16]

Satan Loves Divisions Re Amoris Laetitia [5-2-16]

Dialogue: Amoris Laetitia: Confusing or No? [5-3-16]

Amoris Laetitia, “Trads” & Reactionaries [5-4-16]

Buzzing, Mosquito-Like Trashers of Amoris Laetitia [5-6-16]

Amoris Laetitia Has Already Been Clarified Many Times, Including by High-Ranking Cardinals [11-16-16]

So now we’re up to 35 articles about Amoris Laetitia, hosted or prominently linked on my site, including eight of my own, and Steven O’Reilly is still trying to figure out what I believe on the issue, and why? It is a very odd thing. But this is what people do when they are obsessed. Nevertheless, in a sincere and charitable attempt to deliver Mr. O’Reilly from his existential misery (and others, too, who are of the same opinion, and read this article), I did contact my good friend, Dr. Robert Fastiggi, and he was kind enough to clarify his opinions (and the pope’s as an extra bonus). What follows are his letter to me last night, and accompanying material from then-Cardinal Ratzinger that he sent with it.

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I thought that I would offer some brief thoughts.
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Steven O’Reilly seems to be on a crusade to show that defenders of Amoris Laetitia hold contradictory positions and, therefore, the Pope cannot be defended. I can only offer my own understanding, and it seems that Mr. O’Reilly is familiar with my articles on the subject. The best interpreter of Amoris Laetitia, however, is Pope Francis himself. In his recent book, Let Us Dream, The Path to A Better Future (New York: Simon & Schuster, 2020)—written in conversation with Austen Ivereigh–Pope Francis explains how he decided to deal with the question of whether divorced and civilly remarried Catholics could receive Communion ([see] pp. 87-89 in which he discusses his approach).
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He notes that the media tried to make this question the focal point of the Synod on the Family, and it led to some unfortunate divisions among the Synod fathers, which Pope Francis believes manifested the influence of the “bad spirit.”  The Holy Father then states that “the Spirit saved us in the end, in a breakthrough at the close of the second (October 2015) meeting of the Synod on the Family. The breakthrough came from those with a deep knowledge of the true moral doctrine of St. Thomas Aquinas, especially Cardinal Christoph Schönborn.
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The teaching of Aquinas was his insight that, “because of the immense variety of situations and circumstances people found themselves in …no general rule could apply in every situation.” This Thomistic insight “allowed the synod to agree on the need for a case-by-case discernment.” As Pope  Francis explains “there was no need to change Church law, only how it was applied.” It was a matter of discerning how “God’s grace was operating in the nitty-gritty of people’s lives.” Thus, there was “neither a tightening nor a loosening of the ‘rules’ but an application of them that left room for circumstances that didn’t fit neatly into categories.”
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The key texts of Aquinas are cited in the footnotes to AL, 304. I had noticed the importance of AL, 304 and the citations of Aquinas before. This is why in my Vatican Insider article on answering the dubia, I stated that “in principle” divorced and civilly remarried Catholics cannot receive Holy Communion unless they are living in continence. Pope Francis is also aware of the need for “general principles” since  they are mentioned by Aquinas in the passage cited, viz. Summa theologiae  I-II, q. 94, art. 4. Pope Francis is also aware that discernment “can never prescind from the Gospel demands of truth and charity, as proposed by the Church” (AL, 300). He also insists on the need to avoid “every occasion of scandal” (AL, 299).
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The approach taken by Pope Francis is very traditional and in perfect harmony with Catholic moral teaching. There must be adherence to the general principles and rules but also discernment of how these rules apply in particular cases. I’ve attached a file showing possible cases that might apply to footnote 351 of AL noted by three Cardinals: Ratzinger, Müller, and Vallini. [Dave: see “attachment” below]
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There are other documents of the Magisterium that note the need for discernment of culpability. For example, the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, in its 1975 Declaration on Sexual Ethics (Persona Humana), states that with regard to homosexuals, “their culpability will be judged with prudence” (no. 8). The Catechism of the Catholic Church, when addressing the sin of masturbation, takes note of various factors “that can lessen, if not even reduce to a minimum, moral culpability” (CCC, 2352).
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In light of what the Holy Father says in “Let US Dream,” it’s clear that in Amoris Laetiia there is no change in Catholic moral teaching. Pope Francis simply wishes pastors to handle difficult cases with discernment, which priests do all the time as confessors.  He also wishes “every occasion of scandal” to be avoided.
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To my mind, Catholics who accuse Pope Francis of heresy are guilty of objective grave sin and scandal because they are contradicting the teaching of Vatican I about the charism of truth and never failing faith enjoyed by the successors of Peter.  The Catholics who accuse Pope Francis of heresy, however, might be misled or misinformed. Their culpability must be judged with prudence, discernment, and charity.
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I hope these reflections help.
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Attachment: Difficult cases possibly intended by Amoris Laetitia, footnote 351
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1). From Cardinal Ratzinger’s 1998 essay, “CONCERNING SOME OBJECTIONS TO THE CHURCH’S TEACHING ON THE RECEPTION OF HOLY COMMUNION BY DIVORCED AND REMARRIED MEMBERS OF THE FAITHFUL”

3 c. Admittedly, it cannot be excluded that mistakes occur in marriage cases. In some parts of the Church, well-functioning marriage tribunals still do not exist. Occasionally, such cases last an excessive amount of time. Once in a while they conclude with questionable decisions. Here it seems that the application of epikeia in the internal forum is not automatically excluded from the outset. This is implied in the 1994 letter of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, in which it was stated that new canonical ways of demonstrating nullity should exclude “as far as possible” every divergence from the truth verifiable in the judicial process (cf. No. 9). Some theologians are of the opinion that the faithful ought to adhere strictly even in the internal forum to juridical decisions which they believe to be false. Others maintain that exceptions are possible here in the internal forum, because the juridical forum does not deal with norms of divine law, but rather with norms of ecclesiastical law.

This question, however, demands further study and clarification. Admittedly, the conditions for asserting an exception would need to be clarified very precisely, in order to avoid arbitrariness and to safeguard the public character of marriage, removing it from subjective decisions

This essay is found in the third part of Cardinal Ratzinger’s Introduction to Volume 17 of the series produced by the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, entitled “Documenti e Studi”, On the Pastoral Care of the Divorced and Remarried, LEV, Vatican City 1998, pp. 20-29. It’s posted on the Vatican website after the 1994 letter of the CDF on this matter.

2). This same difficult case is mentioned by Cardinal Gerhard Müller in his introductory essay (Saggio introduttivo) to Rocco Buttiglione’s book, Risposte amichevoli ai critici di Amoris Laetitia (Milano: Edizioni Ares, 2017), 23–25. With respect to cases in which the nullity of the prior bond is impossible to prove, Cardinal Müller writes:

If the second bond were valid before God, the marital relations of the two partners would not constitute a grave sin but instead a transgression against the public ecclesiastical order for having irresponsibly violated the canonical rules and therefore a light sin. This does not obscure the truth that relations more uxorio with a person of the other sex, who is not the legitimate spouse before God, constitute a grave fault against chastity and against the justice owed to the proper spouse.

3). Cardinal Agostino Vallini, the former Prefect of the Apostolic Signatura under St. John Paul II and the Vicar of the Archdiocese of Rome, issued some guidelines on Amoris Laetitia on Sept. 19. 2016, as the Vicar of Pope Francis for the Archdiocese of Rome. These guidelines were by means of a relazione (relation or report) entitled “La letizia dell’amore”: il cammino delle famiglie a Roma” (“The joy of love”: the way of families in Rome”). In his guidelines, Cardinal Vallini refers to footnote 351, and he notes that the footnote (in Italian) uses the conditional and reads: “In certain cases there could (potrebbe) also be the help of the sacraments.”

The use of the conditional shows that Pope Francis is not saying that divorced and civilly remarried Catholics must be admitted to the sacraments. The Holy Father is only noting that they are not excluded from the sacraments in some cases and under certain conditions. What are these conditions? Cardinal Vallini mentions the case in which there is moral certitude that the first marriage was null but there are no proofs to demonstrate this in a judicial setting. In such a case, the only opening to the sacraments would be with a confessor who, at a certain point—in his conscience and after much reflection and prayer—must assume responsibility before God and to the penitent and request that access to the sacraments take place in a reserved manner (in maniera riservata).

4).The philosopher, Rocco Buttiglione, in his 2017 book, Risposte amichevoli ai critici di Amoris Laetitia [Friendly responses to the critics of Amoris Laetitia], notes that Pope Francis is not admitting the divorced and remarried to communion but to confession (p. 68). The confessor must use discernment to decide whether to give absolution, which allows the penitent to receive communion.

Buttiglione—who was a friend of St. John Paul II and an expert on the late Pontiff’s thought—recognizes that absolution can only be given when there a resolve not to commit a sin that is materially grave (pp. 180–181). The confessor, though, must be aware of mitigating factors that might limit the responsibility of the penitent for committing acts that are gravely sinful. Buttiglione gives the example of a woman who is in a condition of total economic and psychological dependence on her civil partner, and this man imposes sexual relations on her against her will (p. 171).

Here it’s not a matter of judging a sinful act not to be sinful but of discerning whether the penitent is fully culpable for the sin. Buttiglione notes: “This does not imply that the unmarried can legitimately engage in sexual acts. The acts are illegitimate, but persons (in some cases)—through the absence of full awareness and deliberate consent—can be free from incurring mortal sin” (p. 172). For absolution to be given there must be the resolve to leave the situation of sin even if the penitent (in the case mentioned) cannot promise to avoid immediately the objective act of sin because she’s living in a situation that exposes her to the irresistible temptation to commit the act (p. 172).

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Photo credit: cover of book by Pope Francis [GoodReads.com]
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2020-11-24T19:20:56-04:00

Atheist and anti-theist Bob Seidensticker runs the influential Cross Examined blog. He asked me there, on 8-11-18“I’ve got 1000+ posts here attacking your worldview. You just going to let that stand? Or could you present a helpful new perspective that I’ve ignored on one or two of those posts?” He added in June 2017 in a combox“If I’ve misunderstood the Christian position or Christian arguments, point that out. Show me where I’ve mischaracterized them.” Delighted to oblige his wishes . . . 

Bob (for the record) virtually begged and pleaded with me to dialogue with him in May 2018, via email. But b10-3-18, following massive, childish name-calling attacks against me,  encouraged by Bob on his blog, he banned me from commenting there. I also banned him for violation of my rules for discussion, but (unlike him) provided detailed reasons for why it was justified.

Bob’s cowardly hypocrisy knows no bounds. On 6-30-19, he was chiding someone for something very much like his own behavior: “Spoken like a true weasel trying to run away from a previous argument. You know, you could just say, ‘Let me retract my previous statement of X’ or something like that.” Yeah, Bob could!  He still hasn’t yet uttered one peep in reply to — now — 62 of my critiques of his atrocious reasoning.

Bible-Basher Bob reiterated and rationalized his intellectual cowardice yet again on 10-17-20: “Every engagement with him [yours truly] devolves into pointlessness. I don’t believe I’ve ever learned anything from him. But if you find a compelling argument of his, summarize it for us.” And again the next day: “He has certainly not earned a spot in my heart, so I will pass on funding his evidence-free project. Like you, I also find that he’s frustrating to talk with. Again, I evaluate such conversations as useful if I can learn something–find a mistake in my argument, uncover an error I made in Christians’ worldview, and so on. Dave is good at bluster, and that’s about it.”

Bible-Basher Bob’s words will be in blueTo find these posts, follow this link: Seidensticker Folly #” or see all of them linked under his own section on my Atheism page.

*****

I have noted Bob’s bizarre and irrational intellectual cowardice when dealing with my critiques on at least four occasions:

Atheist Bob Seidensticker Ain’t Afraid to Debate, and I Am? Really?! [10-3-18]

Atheist Bob Seidensticker: Intellectual Coward (My 32 Critiques) [7-20-19]

Seidensticker Folly #43: Intellectual Cowardice & Hypocrisy [8-28-20]

Seidensticker Folly #46: Ridiculous 5-Minute Exchange (Atheist Neil Carter Promptly Banned Me During the Discussion on His Blog) [8-30-20]

Today I was struck by his absurd double standards, in repeatedly addressing a Christian apologist that he appears to have an equally low opinion of, compared to yours truly. Yet he replies to him and has utterly ignored my 62 refutations as of this date. There are only so many ways to explain such a discrepancy. I think many readers would conclude the same thing I do.

His four-part series in response to the New Zealand minister and evangelist Ray Comfort was originally posted in July 2016 and has now been posted in installments in November 2020 (one / two / three / four). Note how even the titles immediately express Bob’s opinion that Comfort is flat-out not “honest”: “Fat Chance: Pigs Will Fly Before Ray Comfort Writes an Honest Critique of Atheists.”

So let’s do a quick run-down of Bob’s opinion of Comfort’s intellectual prowess (right or wrong — I’m not addressing that, and it’s not my topic –; I’m merely recording Bob’s view for the record):

In the third installment, he calls Comfort “an obnoxious moron” and refers to “how little he understands the issues he talks about.” He gets more and more scathingly insulting as the article proceeds:

Ray keeps using his simple platitudes, . . . He’s been corrected by the best—Richard Dawkins, PZ Myers, and other biologists have pointed out his errors. And yet he pops back up like a Weeble with the same stupid arguments. . . . 

Ray, what do you call someone who makes a mistake, has it corrected by a reliable authority, and then deliberately repeats that mistake? You [call] him a liar. . . .

Does it worry you that you lie? Or maybe you have some rationalization like it’s okay to lie for Jesus or you can lie as long as you ask for forgiveness afterwards.

Bob continues his ranting in part 4, with this preface: “I’ll wrap up with a few more claims from the book that I can’t let stand without rebuttal.” Oh, the pathetic irony! And:

I can understand Ray’s motivation, though—it’s a lot easier to simply make statements like this and ignore that whole evidence-and-good-arguments thing. What a hassle that is. . . . 

As for Ray’s pig book, I’m amazed that he can consider this mindless and insulting tract to be an evangelistic tool.

Okay! Now, the obvious question is: if Ray Comfort’s book is so “mindless and insulting” and he is an “obnoxious moron” who understands “little” regarding what he is writing about, with “stupid arguments” that amount to him being a relentless “liar” and having a leading characteristic of ignoring “evidence-and-good-arguments”, then why does Bob bother responding to him at all: let alone with four lengthy screeds?

And if he responds to a person he has such a rock-bottom opinion of: why does he utterly refuse to reply to my critiques: which now number 62? He seems to hold Ray Comfort in even less regard than he does me. He wrote about me on October 17 and 18, 2020:

Every engagement with him devolves into pointlessness. I don’t believe I’ve ever learned anything from him. . . . I will pass on funding his evidence-free project. Like you, I also find that he’s frustrating to talk with. . . . Dave is good at bluster, and that’s about it.

That’s not too bad, all things considered. You would think, since Bob literally pleaded with me in emails to engage in May 2018 and later specifically challenged me, almost months later, on 8-11-18:

I’ve got 1000+ posts here attacking your worldview. You just going to let that stand? Or could you present a helpful new perspective that I’ve ignored on one or two of those posts?

. . . that he would be delighted to have a golden opportunity to refute my critiques and counter-arguments. He wasn’t forced at gunpoint to say that. He voluntarily did. I started my “Seidensticker Folly” series the very next day: which is a systematic refutation of Bob’s anti-theist and anti-Christian / anti-Bible arguments. The series now numbers 62 installments, and as of this date (after two years and three months), not one peep in reply has been heard from Bob. It’s crickets and ZZZZzzzzz all-around (except for the obligatory personal insults if anyone brings up my name). Yet he will write and repost a four-part response to a guy he thinks is “moron” and “liar” and obviously a clueless idiot on many fronts, who habitually makes (so Bob sez) “stupid arguments.”

I think there is only one reasonable and quite plausible explanation for this. He thinks he can provide a good and convincing reply to Comfort but he must not think so as regards my critiques: or else he would respond to me, too. We can’t be too careful in debate about whom we choose to wrangle with.

I’m  in very good company, as to being a recipient of insults from Bob. Dr. William Lane Craig is widely considered (by theists and atheists alike) one of the very best philosophical defenders of theism. But that doesn’t stop Bob from trashing and bashing him in all sorts of ridiculous ways:

unhealthy relationship with facts and evidence . . . sloppy thinking [in the title] . . . dark and tangled recesses of the thinking . . . bizarre reply . . . He ignores the problem, assumes that he is right, and then shapes the facts to fit. . . . The mental masturbation continues. . . . It’d be a pain to have to, y’know, do all that research and stuff. I mean, who’s got the time? Using reason would be inconvenient, so let’s not. . . . drunken reasoning . . . So much for apologetics to raise the intellectual content of the conversation. (7-21-14 / reposted on 3-23-18)

His potshots sent my way are veritable high praise compared to this! When you discover this masterpiece on Google (I did by simply searching “Craig is” on his site), the little blurb (first one up) reads: “William Lane Craig is the insane gift that keeps on giving, a cornucopia of crazy. Let’s look at more of the nutty thinking . . .” The description for another post dated 7-29-14 is: “World famous Christian apologist William Lane Craig is well known for his hilariously inept defense of the savage excesses of his God . . .” On 5-7-19 he said of Dr. Craig: I suppose if Craig is smart he knows what he is peddling is false. It’s a living for him.”

You get the point. Filthy lucre . . . (which certainly can’t explain away my 39 years of apologetics: the last 19, full-time, as a profession). Yet Bob replies to Dr. Craig over and over and over. Granted, he should, because of Dr. Craig’s academic stature. But we see what he thinks of him. Yet that doesn’t stop him from repeatedly replying to his arguments. I should be short work next to Dr. Craig, right? One would think so. I’m a nobody in the overall scheme of things . . . But Bob has chosen to utterly ignore me. One might say, “well — completely aside from the disputes — , he obviously dislikes you personally.” Yes, I’m sure that’s true. I’m not overly fond of him, either. But doesn’t it seem obvious that he also greatly dislikes likes Ray Comfort and William Lane Craig on a personal level? So that won’t fly (like the pigs), either.

If you, dear reader, have a better explanation of his Utter Silence as regards Yours Truly, please do let me know. I think it’s because I systematically dismantle his arguments in a way that opponents usually don’t do (influenced by my socratic leanings and literally 39 years of debates and apologetics). I believe he simply doesn’t know how to process that, let alone attempt a reply. After all, Christians are never supposed to get the better of atheists in any argument, so he concludes that in fact it hasn’t happened in my case because it’s impossible.

See how the [circular reasoning] mentality works? Thus, he chooses to make out that I have absolutely nothing to say — no arguments whatsoever –, leading to him fleeing for the hills and acting like he has no time at all for someone so supposedly stupid and content-less as I am. Bishop “Dr.” [???] James White: the anti-Catholic Reformed Baptist apologist, has also used precisely this tactic for about ten years with me (as have several other anti-Catholics). It only makes him look like a pompous ass and a coward: just as in Bob’s case. They’re not doing themselves any favors. But Bob wants to lecture others about supposedly lying to themselves and being intellectually dishonest? Spare me.

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Photo credit: [public domain / Creazilla]

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2020-04-20T18:01:17-04:00

This interesting and cordial discussion occurred in a combox on the Green Baggins website (starting from my first comment at #205). Rev. Lane Keister (“greenbaggins” in the thread: words in blue) — citing from his own profile — is a PCA (Presbyterian Church in America) pastor currently serving a CRC (Christian Reformed Church) and an RCA (Reformed Church in America) church. He graduated from Westminster Theological Seminary in Philadelphia with an M.Div. Andrew McCallum’s words will be in in green; Jeff Cagle’s in purple.

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Bryan [Cross] has been for quite a while one of the few Roman Catholic commenters on this blog,. . .
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I would be willing to add myself to that small list, if it could be clarified what the “official” stand of this blog is with regard to Catholicism. I have a policy of not interacting with anti-Catholics: i.e., those who classify Catholic theology outside of Christianity in a way that sets it apart from Protestantism, so that the Catholic who consistently follows his Church’s teachings in all respects is thought to be little better than a Jehovah’s Witness, Mormon, or any other heretic (and these “cults” deny the Trinity, which we, of course, do not do: since Protestants pretty much derived their own trinitarianism and Christology from us in the first place: Nicaea, Chalcedon, etc.).
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Basically, the important question, for the sake of dialogue and ecumenism, insofar as possible without violation of anyone’s principles, is whether Catholicism as a whole is to be regarded as a Christian entity or not. It is entirely possible to take such a position within a Reformed framework, as, for example, Charles Hodge did, and as many Reformed Protestants today do (the ECT agreements, etc.).
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Socrates held that good, constructive dialogue was only possible if folks understood the views of their opponents, had some measure of respect for them (including recognizing things in common), and preferably if those in a dialogue were actually friends or at least not hostile to each other.
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My interest lies in Protestants who regard Catholicism as a Christian theological system, albeit with many serious flaws, as they see it. It’s fine if someone has an honest disagreement with Catholicism. It is the recourse to denying that orthodox Catholics are Christians and brothers in Christ that I think is ridiculous and indeed, intellectually suicidal, once we examine all of the questionable premises involved and the ludicrous notion of Church history that is necessarily entailed by such a view.

Dave, the definition of “Christian” here is very slippery and difficult.

Where would you derive your definition? I’m curious.

If all you mean is that we accept Catholic baptisms as valid, then yes I do.

So did John Calvin, so that is not unexpected.

If you mean that I have to view Catholic doctrine as basically non-heretical, then no I don’t.

That’s beside the point. It is not deeming certain aspects as heretical that is the problem (we do that with all strains of Protestantism, too), but a classification out of Christianity altogether.

I view Catholicism as apostate.

From what? Christianity? This is what I am trying to determine. Can one believe in Catholic soteriology and be saved in doing so, or must one deny it and become a Protestant to have any chance of being saved?

That doesn’t mean that I hate Catholic people (I have a dear Catholic friend who was my roommate in college), or that I would be rude to them.

I accept your word. I disagree with folks all the time as an apologist, and have no personal hostility towards them whatever. In fact, I went to a meeting with eleven atheists recently and spoke Christian truth to them, and we got along fine.

Anyone who believes that they get to heaven partly on the basis of their own works, even if grace is involved, is not a Christian in the stricter sense of the term.

Catholics deny Pelagianism and Semi-Pelagianism. We believe in an organic unity between faith and works, just as taught in the book of James, and as taught by Luther and Calvin, though they formally separated sanctification from justification as categories. It is incorrect to assert that Catholics believe in “works-salvation” or to deny that we believe in sola gratia. The Tridentine canons on Justification (particularly 1-3) make that clear.

So, it depends on how you define the word “Christian.”

My nutshell definition is: one who is a trinitarian, accepts the gospel (defined by the Bible itself) and the saving work of Jesus Christ on the cross on his behalf, and accepts the Nicene Creed. What’s yours?

Many people I deeply respect hold the views that you call “ridiculous” and “intellectually suicidal.” I wonder why you would use such rhetoric, if indeed you are interested in unity.

I was simply making my own views clear, so there is no misunderstanding. I understand that this might offend some, but of course it is also offensive for Catholics to be characterized as we are by many who hold anti-Catholic views. I need not go through the laundry list. In fact, “Romanism” itself is usually regarded as an outdated, pejorative term, and you use it yourself. It is understood in most circles that folks ought to be called what they call themselves. We call ourselves “Catholics.” We are happy to call you “Reformed” or “Calvinists” or “Protestants” or whatever you like. There must be a certain leeway in titles, for the sake of courtesy and respect.

As I said, though, firm Romanists are welcome to comment on my blog, and I try to keep the rhetoric to a minimum, and instead concentrate on substance. I don’t have any idea where this places me in your reckoning.

Your further replies will help me to better understand where you are coming from. Thanks.

P.S., Dave, all true Catholics should regard someone like me as apostate, as well.

That’s not true. We regard Protestants as fellow Christians and part of the Body of Christ. Vatican II makes this abundantly plain. In one of my papers I extensively cite the Decree on Ecumenism, where this is made crystal clear.

So it should go both ways, if Catholics are to take Trent seriously. After all, it pronounces an anathema on me for believing that a person is justified by faith alone without my works playing any part whatsoever. 

No; it is not pronouncing an anathema on you personally (in fact, it never names Luther or Calvin or any Protestant group, as I recall). It is condemning a bare, antinomian faith alone of a sort that was renounced by Luther and Calvin (and the most thoughtful Reformed minds today), who do not disparage the necessary role of good works in a Christian’s life at all.
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The “Trent anathema” issue is complex, and often highly misunderstood. Trent has to be understood in light of subsequent development in Catholic thought. Many things have improved in Protestant-Catholic relations over 450 years.
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I wouldn’t regard any Catholic as having a personal vendetta against me just because their church’s official position is that I am condemned.

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Again, personal vendettas have nothing to do with it. I have many, many close Protestant friends and we get along fine. But too often, in practice (all of us being sinners), folks’ theology make them hostile and uncharitable and they take the lowest possible view of the integrity of those who differ. You and I may not do that, but many do, and this is part of the reason that I no longer bother interacting with anti-Catholics. My experience has been what it has been. I can’t change that. Paul commands me to avoid the fruitless dispute and vain controversy and I take that very seriously.

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So, it’s [a] mirror image both ways, in my opinion.

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Again, I respectfully disagree. Official Catholic teaching holds that Protestants are fellow Christians and separated brethren, whereas official confessional Reformed teaching often classifies us as “antichrist” and Pelagian, idolatrous, semi-pagan, etc. The Lutheran confessions (in at least one place) literally equate the Mass with “Baal-worship.” Many Protestants do not follow those characterizations today, of course, but they are in the documents. But Vatican II has clarified what we think of Protestants. It is not a “mirror image” at all. But the majority of Protestants today are not anti-Catholics in the sense of denying that Catholicism is Christian.

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Dave, we can agree on many things: the Apostles’ Creed and the Nicene Creed for starters. I will cheerfully admit also that you and I have much more in common than I would have with Mormons and JW’s. As a result, if you wish to dialogue with me, I am more than willing. For myself, you can expect respect, lack of rhetorical flourish (done in order to belittle opponents), and a desire to stick to the logical points. However, if you’re waiting for an admission that Catholics are Christians, that won’t come from me, because of the ambiguity of the word. 
I cannot agree with your interpretation of Trent. Pope Leo X excommunicated Martin Luther for his doctrine of justification. If all Trent did was reject something that Luther also rejected, then Leo had no need of excommunicating Luther.
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You neglect to see that there were far more considerations and factors in play here than only the issue of justification. Luther had in fact departed from at least 50 Catholic doctrines and practices by 1520, before he was excommunicated. I have documented this from the three great treatises of 1520 alone.
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Luther had, for example, also rejected papal and conciliar infallibility and asserted Scripture alone by that point (thus logically ruling out apostolic succession as well). All these positions were radical innovations. The consensus of patristic and medieval scholars of all stripes (despite the polar opposite opinions of some in this thread [subtly referring to David T. King] who are not patristic scholars) is that the fathers and medievals did not believe in sola Scriptura as Luther and subsequent Protestants understood the notion.
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It is rather easy to understand (and accept), I think, that any institution has the right to expel from its ranks those who no longer believe in its teachings. Protestants do the same for far less reason than we had with Luther. The analogy I always use is a scenario whereby I went into a staunch confessionally, traditionally Reformed seminary and denied all five tenets of TULIP, yet asked to be retained on staff as a teacher. That would never do. I’d be booted out (literally) virtually as soon as the words came out of my mouth.
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At the Synod of Dort, the Arminians were in fact expelled from Reformed-dom in rather unsavory terms, for denying TULIP. Yet on the other hand it is thought to be the height of outrage that we excommunicated Luther for consciously having denied at least 50 of our beliefs (far beyond merely soteriology), as if that is not the most predictable, sensible thing in the world to do.
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He was no longer a Catholic. Period. End of story. We did not bring that about. He did, by his own free choice. Things aren’t endlessly malleable, as if Catholic theology and tradition were a wax nose, to be molded at whim by anyone (including a pugnacious Augustinian monk known to be prone to rhetorical, emotional, and scrupulous extremes). We had an established theological tradition just as y’all did and do. And we have parameters for orthodoxy just as y’all do.
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To say now that all it does is reject an antinomian version of justification does not do justice to the historical situation. If Vatican II wants to change relations with Lutheranism (and one can certainly argue that it does), then it should retract Trent, not redefine it.
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Thanks for your reply. I am enjoying our exchanges, and I appreciate your gentlemanly demeanor.
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First of all, how could one who accepts the Nicene and Apostles’ Creed not be a Christian? I think that is something you should ask yourself.If those do not help clarify who is and who is not a Christian, what in the world does? This is the very purpose of creeds and confessions: to determine in a concise manner who is within and outside of the fold.
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I don’t see how you can argue on the one hand, that “Christianity” is an “ambiguous” and slippery term, and on the other hand, be reluctant to apply it to Catholics. If it is so difficult to define, wouldn’t it make more sense to extend it in charity to Catholics: a case you find difficult and complex, rather than refuse to outright call Catholics Christians (in the doctrinal, creedal, confessional sense)?
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That makes little sense to me. I would say that it is fundamental in all rational discussions (and I think we can readily agree on this) to define terms: especially ones that are central. In this case, one must define “Christian.” It is surprising to me that you would stress the “ambiguity” of the very word “Christian.” Clearly, you regard yourself as one, so you must have a reason to do that (or so I strongly presume). Yet you wonder if Catholics are, and lean against proclaiming that they are.
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I don’t think that is coherent. Without a clear, concise definition from the outset, I don’t see how you could even withhold a judgment with regard to Catholics. You should, I submit, remain strictly neutral at worst, until you nail down the meaning of “Christian.” The thing to do is define “Christianity” and then go from there and figure out who fits into the category.
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For myself, it is quite clear, and always has been, as an evangelical cult researcher in the early 80s and now as a Catholic. Those who deny trinitarianism and the deity of Christ are not Christians. Period. Pelagians are not. Those who worship someone other than God are not. Catholics are, by all these criterion.
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As to the the Tridentine anathemas and related issues, I dealt with this in a paper of mine: The Catholic Understanding of the “Anathemas” of Trent and Excommunication. First of all, I corrected the common misunderstanding that “anathema” means “damned.” This is untrue. The Catholic Church does not make pronouncements on the eternal destiny of individuals, including Luther, Calvin et al (I believe this even includes Judas). In fact, in one of my fictional dialogues I portrayed Martin Luther quite favorably as now in heaven (and I am as orthodox a Catholic as they come). Calvinists are the ones who proclaim folks to be damned; not us (even though Calvin stated more than once that it is not known for sure who can be said to be of the elect or not).
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Those who are interested in this topic and in Catholic-Protestant relations and ecumenism (and soteriology in general) might want to read my entire paper above. Along these lines, I myself have written several papers trying to illustrate the common soteriological ground between Catholics and Protestants: a thing vastly misunderstood, sadly, on both sides of the dispute.
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It was stated above in this thread that Catholics have anathematized all Protestants or all who adhere to sola fide. That is simply not the case, as I have explained. It’s not just myself saying this. The discussion noted above was spearheaded by the present pope, and this is his own interpretation of what the Tridentine anathemas mean, and how they apply (or don’t apply). That is highly significant.
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The pope certainly is a more authoritative interpreter of Trent (some of the doctrines he himself upholds as pope) than Protestants who come to it with a very negative inclination from the outset, just as y’all would expect some renowned Reformed theologian to understand his own theology better than I would.
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I should think this is a positive thing. I love ecumenism because it brings Christians together, rather than separating them. There is so much misinformation and cynicism on both sides that such efforts are often doomed before they even begin. People refuse to accept that there is common ground. I dispute with Catholics who don’t accept their own Church’s teaching, and with Protestants who think the differences are greater than they actually are.
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I have shown, I think, how John Calvin misinterpreted and misunderstood Tridentine soteriology. It’s extremely common in Protestant circles. And Catholics just as often misunderstand Protestant teachings (especially in light of the fact that there are so many varieties of them). Having been in both camps, I try to be a bridge and clear these myths up as best I can.
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Many, many Protestants make the same mistake that Calvin did, insofar as they claim that Trent denied Grace Alone and the gospel or asserted Pelagianism (or even semi-Pelagianism). A lot of it stems from an unbiblical “either/or” reasoning.
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There are mountains of disinformation. I know: I’ve been dealing with it for almost 20 years now, as a former Protestant Catholic apologist.
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But the bishops at Trent didn’t necessarily misunderstand Protestant faith alone totally. They were opposing antinomian distortions of it that were rampant by that time, just as Luther and Calvin themselves did. The mistake perhaps (a quite understandable one in that environment) was in painting with too broad of a brush.
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What was condemned was not Lutheranism or Calvinism by name, but false views such as an antinomian bare assent masquerading as true biblical faith: something both Catholics and (most) Calvinists vehemently deny: as seen in the debates over Lordship salvation in our times.
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You guys continue to fight amongst yourselves about what sola fide truly means, yet you expect us to have gotten it perfectly right in the emotionally-charged 16th century? The earliest Protestants anathematized, and (more than that) damned and killed each other from the get-go, and you expect us to understand all the finest points of the myriad Protestant theologies, right from the outset of Protestantism? Luther condemned antinomian distortions of his teachings (and I’m sure Calvin did the same), just as Catholics condemned the same sort of false doctrines.
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So again, there is an encouraging, heartening common ground to be found here, if only folks are willing to do that and get past all the historic myths and lies on both sides about the “other” guys.
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This is why I came here in the first place: to see if constructive discussion can be had. I think it can be with those here who aren’t already anti-Catholic.
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I still await clarification from greenbaggins (going way back to #212 and #215) on what exactly he thinks “Christianity” is, and how he can conclude that Catholics are apostates before first figuring out the definition of the thing we supposedly left: on the logical principle that one cannot know if x is a species of y or not without first determining the precise nature of y.
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In other words, if one claims that something is outside the parameters of something, one must first have a clear grasp of the thing that is the category in question; otherwise (given the proclaimed “ambiguity”) it makes sense only to hold an agnostic position, not an exclusionary one.
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Way back about 50 posts or so you were asking about whether we believed Catholics were Christians and Lane responded that the term “Christian” is “slippery and difficult.” I would agree with that comment.
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We’re back to my original counter-reply which has not yet received an answer. You and Lane both say the word “Christian[ity]” is ambiguous, yet I highly doubt that either of you despair about whether you are included in the category. So it isn’t ambiguous when you think of yourselves or your tradition.
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Nor is it when Lane claimed that Catholics are apostate and that he hesitates to describe the system as “Christian.” This is plainly incoherent. The definition must be nailed down first. It’s not that difficult at all, really. But to say one isn’t sure what it is, yet at the same time, be “sure” that Catholics can’t be classified therein without hesitation, just won’t do. It is internally incoherent. And I think it illustrates that many Protestants have not properly thought the issue through, to have such uncertainty on a basic definitional issue. Nothing personal at all; I’m simply discussing ideas and theology.
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I’ve thought about these issues myself for almost thirty years, because in the early 80s I specialized in cult research (particularly regarding JWs). We had to be very clear what was Christian and what was not.
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but would also add that the term “Catholic” is slippery and difficult as well. All of us Reformed folks know lots Catholics who are faithful to their religion as best as they know how, but still come to very different conclusions on theological and practical matters. I remember watching a documentary where some film makers were interviewing folks coming out of a Catholic church. They asked them about their hope for salvation. One of the first interviewees said that she trusted in God’s grace and that Christ’s sacrifice alone was sufficient. But the others talked about trying to be good and keep the Ten Commandments and so on. So my take away here, while of course not knowing these folk’s hearts, is that the first interviewee was likely a Christian and the others probably were not. They may all have been faithful Catholics as best as they had learned to be, but it seemed to me that the light of the gospel had only been impressed upon one of them.
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But this is completely irrelevant. The nature and content of Catholic theology is not determined by interviewing often relatively uneducated Catholics or an old Catholic lady in purple tennis shoes (anymore than it is determined by interviewing the usual 80% or so proportion of even evangelical and Calvinist churches, who never crack a Bible study), but by consulting Catholic dogmatic sources. It’s as easy as going to the Catechism.
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Why would anyone think that determining a group’s beliefs was a matter of head count rather than official sources? I think this is fashionable because in fact there are very many Catholics ignorant of their own theology (why that is, is another long discussion). But there are also plenty of Protestants ignorant of their theology (i.e., one of many variant Protestant theologies) as well. It proves nothing. All it proves is the level of ignorance that obtains in the typical common member of a group and that the teachings of said group have not been properly passed down.
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On the other hand, saying that works have something to do with salvation, insofar as they exhibit genuine faith (per James and many many Pauline passages that I would be happy to produce if someone doubts this), and in a non-Pelagian fashion, is quite biblical. The problem is that it becomes a very subtle discussion, to make all the proper distinctions and draw all the fine lines, in both Catholic and Protestant theology.
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As we would expect, then, many relatively uneducated, unsophisticated Christians of all stripes (indeed, even many sophisticated, educated ones) get these distinctions wrong and incorrectly understand. And so the average uneducated Catholic will tend to think they are saved by works and discount faith, while the average evangelical or Calvinist Protestant will tend to go to the other extreme and adopt a radical faith alone that has no place for works (even though Luther and Calvin expressly eschewed such a notion).
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The basic gospel is communicated literally in every Catholic Mass, as I have shown in one of my papers. If someone doesn’t “hear” it, it is because of their own inattention and apathy, not because it isn’t there to be heard and received and appropriated in their own lives.
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A Christian in Scripture was first called so by those in Antioch who observed that this sect followed the teachings of Christ. But what does it mean to follow Christ? 
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It has both a devotional / relational and doctrinal component. The Christian devotes his life to Christ and resolves to follow His teachings and way of life. But the Christian must also have correct theology on the “non-negotiables” (back to the Nicene Creed, etc.). One can’t simply say that they are following Christ without the doctrinal component. Any Mormon or Moonie or Christian Scientist says that, but they follow a different Christ.
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Nor can or should one express a perfectly orthodox theology (in whatever framework) while being cold and unloving and ignoring the ethical / moral aspects of our Lord Jesus Christ’s teaching. We know that such a person would be rejected by God on the Last Day, because we have express biblical teaching that this is the case.
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The somewhat different answers to this question underlie the point that Lane made about definitions of the term “Christian” being rather difficult.
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I don’t think it is; I think the definition has these different components that I have outlined, and that many Protestants (and Catholics) are confused by that and confuse the two and don’t nail it down. They simply need to ponder it and think it through. I think if that were done, with informed participants on both sides of the debate, that much could be accomplished.
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My impression is that most of the Catholics that frequent blogs such as this one are Thomists and thus do believe that salvation is by grace alone. 
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Both Thomists and Molinists (I am in the latter camp: as a “Congruist”) believe in Grace Alone, because the latter is dogmatically asserted in Trent, and both are equally bound to it. Questions of predestination are distinct, and we are allowed to have some disagreement on that in Catholic dogmatic theology.
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But before Trent and even after Trent not all Catholics were Thomists. I would say there are relatively few in the Catholic world who even care about such distinctions and for those really serious Catholics, Thomism is not the only option open to them.
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One can always find ignorance in any camp, just as one can always find sin. To me that is totally uninteresting and irrelevant to the questions at hand. It’s a piece of sociological analysis (my major in college) and not theological analysis. I’m all for sociology and understanding all those things better (I love surveys and demographics), but (with all due respect) it is beside the present point (“what is a Christian?”).
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Personally I don’t like the term “Romanists” and “Papists” and I don’t use them. I do use the term “Roman Catholic Church” or RCC for short. I think this is apt and descriptive term, although I know my Catholic friends don’t particularly like it.
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Cheers…
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Thanks very much, Andrew, for your comments and their irenic tone. I enjoyed interacting with them, and I hope I didn’t state anything that would offend you (or anyone else). It was assuredly not my intention. I’m just talkin’ theology.

Just as Protestants (then and now) misunderstood Catholic teachings. This is the human condition: especially in times of great controversy and change.

 The difference, however, is that Protestants do not claim infallibility for their doctrinal pronouncements. Calvin might have been wrong, and my faith will not have been in vain. 
 
By contrast, Trent cannot have been wrong in your view. Thus, if it now appears that Trent was incorrect, your only possible move is to reinterpret Trent so that it doesn’t apply to Luther and Calvin.
 
I’m not a Reformation history scholar, nor a betting man, but I would bet a beer that the Roman Catholic church in the 17th century understood that the canons of the 6th Session were directed against mainstream Protestants and not merely antionomian extremists.
 
(my wife and I do bet Rita’s water ices with each other. Oddly enough, the net payout is always 0).
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You miss the point. Trent (to my knowledge; I’m pretty sure about this) never named Calvin or Luther, or even Calvinism or Lutheranism. If it had done so, and had condemned them by name and misrepresented them in particulars (as the Catholic Church routinely is misrepresented in Protestant confessional documents) then you would have a point. That would have been a documentable and established factual error.
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What it condemned (e.g., a truly bare assent of faith, and/or antinomianism) was indeed false, and mainstream magisterial Protestantism agrees that it is (since Luther and Calvin condemned the same extremes that occurred among those who claimed to be their legatees or who broke away from them. It was correct in what it condemned. That’s not an error; rather, it is a question of what exactly was intended to be covered by any given particular condemnation.
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The error, therefore, lies in your logically flawed analysis, not in Trent. :-)
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I haven’t studied the matter personally, but I have heard many times that, e.g., a great many of Luther’s 95 Theses were perfectly orthodox by existing Catholic standards.
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Another way to look at it is as follows:
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Suppose as a hypothetical,that I create an “infallible” document wherein I state, among many other things: “those who deny that 2+2=4 are hereby anathematized as dunces and arithmetically-challenged.”
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That is the statement in the document, and it is undeniably true in terms of its mathematical accuracy.
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Suppose also that I as the author mistakenly believe that this state of affairs (mathematical duncehood) is true of PCA, CRC, and OPC Reformed Protestants, and also of Wisconsin Synod Lutherans and the Podunk Storefront Fundamentalist Church at 245 Elm Street in Ashtabula and those in Joel Osteen’s mega-relevant,with-it, hyper-trendy church.
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The latter is an error of fact. But (here’s the bottom line) it is not stated in the infallible document. Therefore, to implicate the infallible document as not infallible because of something not in the document itself is irrelevant; a non sequitur in the fullest sense of that word.
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This is exactly what a few of you are attempting to do with Trent. I have explained the logic of it and how the Catholic Church (including the pope himself) interprets the matter. Like I said, it should be an encouraging thing to you, that the dreaded anathemas are not as sweeping as you had supposed. But instead, you want to hang on to the old tired divisions and timeworn rhetoric of nearly 500 years. You can’t accept the report even of a Catholic pope, about what an ecumenical Catholic council entails with regard to Protestantism.
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People do understand things better as time goes on. This is an instance of that. It is not required to believe that every Catholic alive in the 16th century (including the bishops at Trent) had exhaustively accurate knowledge of every jot and tittle of every Protestant sect of the time. Nor is this necessary in order for the dogmatic statements of Trent to be true.
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They could very well have been wrong about what applied to whom. But this has no bearing on the truth or falsity of doctrinal statements in the infallible Tridentine documents, as shown above, by analogy.
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[see Jeff Cagle’s entire comment #268 regarding Luther’s excommunication]
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Nevertheless, Dave, it is true that Luther was excommunicated for his doctrine of justification: specifically as we see above, for teaching that man is simul iustus et peccator, and that man’s penalty for sin is remitted along with the guilt (so that indulgences are of no weight).
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Lots to reply to, but I am immensely enjoying the exchanges and challenges. Thanks to the hosts for allowing me the privilege and pleasure of interacting with the many thoughtful folks here. I appreciate the opportunity very much.
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Hi Jeff,
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You haven’t overthrown my original contention at all. I claimed that many more issues were in play with Luther and his excommunication besides justification. You even helped bolster my point by providing a few examples. How this disproves what I stated is, I confess, a great mystery to me.
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There is a misunderstanding here. I agree with the factual content of your statement and was not attempting to disprove it, but to qualify it. 
 
The fact remains that Luther was excommunicated for, among other things, his doctrine of justification, which is what Lane originally stated.
 
If we can agree on this point, then it seems reasonable to close the book on the matter.
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No offense taken, I take it that you are just giving us your straightforward impressions of what I say.
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Indeed. I’m glad you understand that. I argue very passionately and sometimes (so I am told!) quite pointedly and in a “hit between the eyes” fashion; it is never intended to be a personal attack. I always try to stick to the ideas, doctrines, and logic involved. My argumentative passion (honed over 30 years of apologetics and debates) is often misinterpreted as emotional excess. It is not at all. I’m a very easy-going sort and am said to be “soft-spoken.”
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In person that would be immediately obvious, I think (again, so I have been told many times). I just want to nip this “issue” in the bud before it possibly becomes a problem here, because I am enjoying myself and hope I can hang around a bit, if you guys are willing to put up with my challenges and perhaps sometimes “provocation,” as it were. I come on like gangbusters, sometimes. It is simply my aggressive debating style. I love true debate and dialogue. Sometimes others do not share my love and find my particular consciously socratic style offensive or off-putting.
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In #205, you asked about the official stance of of this site on Catholicism. I’m not the owner nor a moderator, so I cannot comment here. I was just chipping in on a comment or two that Lane made. You said that you did not want to interact with those who you deemed to be “anti-Catholic” and I understand this and certainly don’t blame you.
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It’s wonderful that this is understood. No one likes to try to interact with folks who are persistently hostile, and often, unfortunately, in a directly personal, ad hominem fashion. I’ve been personally called every name in the book over 14 years online: virtually every calumny imaginable. I won’t bore you or anyone with those details. Like I said, my experience is what it is, and I can’t change it.
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I think that you will find most all of the Protestants who interact here are fair-minded and careful in the way they interact.
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I have indeed found that to be the case and overall I like this place and the people here. I think there is an excellent, refreshing mix of thoughtfulness and cordiality. I’m delighted that I haven’t been 1) personally attacked, or 2) kicked out yet. :-) Surely we all are aware of how rampant such things are on the Internet. I gave up on discussion boards way back in 2003 because of it.
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Frankly, I still marvel, however, that there is no clear definition of “Christianity.”
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Dave, it’s not that we cannot define Christian. That is easy enough. But you are were asking about the individual Catholic in #205 (when you said that Protestants would often liken the faithful Catholic to a Mormon, etc). A Christian is one who knows Christ because Christ knows him. When you ask about the faithful Catholic and whether we would consider him a Christian our response is we that cannot say this because we cannot know the heart of the individual nor can we know the mind of Christ. 
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I find that to be a remarkable, astounding thing. My questions in that area have ultimately been left hanging (I assume that there are competing time demands in some cases). You have grappled directly with them at some length (thanks) but as of yet you don’t seem to have offered a clear answer, either. Do you acknowledge that you should reasonably have a clear answer?
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So my response to you in #262 could be summarized in a sentence to say that we are not going to assume that someone is a Christian just because they are a member in good standing in the RCC, but we are not going to deny that there are many Catholics who are truly Christian. 
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Good, but what is a Christian in the first place? My position is that there is a lot of ignorance. We can’t determine what Catholicism teaches by taking head counts of usually under-educated, too often misinformed or compromised collections of Catholics on the street. We can’t do that with Protestants, either. We have to look at “the books” in both cases. I don’t see how that is even arguable.
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Again, I say that any “ambiguity” comes from the second aspect of the definition: that of one’s personal position in relationship with God. You guys say one is either justified or not. We follow that to a large extent but we also look at it more as a process. The Catholic examines himself right now to see if he is in a state of mortal, grave sin, or separation from God. If I’m in bed with a prostitute as I type this, then I am not in a good place with God. We say that this is a mortal sin and that death minus true repentance could quite possibly land one in hell for eternity.
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You guys say that it proves that a person never was justified or regenerated in the first place; lest he wouldn’t be indulging in such serious sin. It is a formal difference but a practical agreement. In both instances the person is clearly in a bad spiritual place, is seen to be a rank hypocrite, and is in distinct danger of damnation.
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So you look at the “good” Catholics and the “bad” ones and determine who may or not be a Christian in that behavioral sense. You still incorporate behavioral aspects. This is what I find informative. You don’t separate — in the end — the aspect of good works and behavior and avoidance of sin anymore than we do. You simply categorize things differently.
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But we don’t say that someone who is an obvious state of rebellion ever was Christ’s sheep. Christ says that He knows His sheep and they will never perish. They cannot be His sheep at one point and then slip through His fingers later.
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But — that said — I would contend that in the final analysis, a person’s state of soul is known only to God. As fallible, limited, finite human beings, we can only determine who is a Christian (as a practical matter of categorization) by a doctrinal analysis. That’s why I always ask Protestants if they think Catholicism is Christian as a system of theology. And I say, “can a Catholic who believes all that his Church teaches be saved?,” or, “does one have to be a bad Catholic in order to be a good Christian?”
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It’s the doctrinal, creedal emphasis. Protestants normally extend this charity of category to all other Protestants (with some exceptions), but for some odd reason there is reluctance to do this in relation to Catholics (and often Orthodox as well).
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Now I’m sure there are some Reformed folks who may interact here that disagree with the last statement, but I think it is generally true of most of the Reformed folks who come here.
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I’ll take your word. The tone of this site is plainly very different from most Reformed sites I have seen (that tended to be anti-Catholic and often extremely uncharitable, sad to say).
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You need to understand that we are not generally going to try to differentiate between Catholics who do hold to official RCC theology and those who don’t.
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Why not? I submit that you wouldn’t like it much if I made no differentiation between the most wacko Protestants out there (some not even trinitarian, some antinomian, some compromised on various moral issues or liberal in theology, some off on wild hyper-faith delusions, etc.) and a solid, traditional, confessional, morally conservative Presbyterian or other Reformed Christian. If we are expected to be aware of all the fine distinctions and to categorize properly, why are we not owed the same thing in return? The only objective way to do this (on both sides) is to consult official theologies.
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Someone is “Catholic” if they are a member in good standing of the Catholic Church. But worldwide this allows for a massive breadth of belief systems. 
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I dispute that. It is easily said, but it is never proven. Many Catholics, for example, dissent on contraception. But that no more disproves the official stance of the Catholic Church than cohabiting evangelicals disprove the traditional Protestant stance against fornication. You guys look and see dissenters, but note that this is exactly what they are: “dissenter” implies that there is something solid that is disbelieved: not that there is no ascertainable belief merely because there is a dissenter. Our beliefs are plain and clear. If you have doubts, I’d be happy to clarify any given one for you.
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We’re not Episcopalians (or any number of other Protestant denominations who decided to overturn moral teachings with a majority vote at a gathering). Our teachings don’t change. We don’t decide that all of a sudden homosexuality or masturbation or abortion or contraception suddenly becomes moral after centuries of being understood as immoral.
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But Protestants actually change those things. Everyone here is certainly aware of the problem of liberal dissent. Catholics have plenty of liberals attempting to undermine our dogmatic teachings, too. But in our case, they have not changed any dogmatic teaching. In many Protestant scenarios, teachings have been changed. This is the essential difference. Please don’t project your internal problems onto us.
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So when you ask us what we think of a given Catholic 
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I don’t believe I asked that (if I happened to in one place, it has not been my emphasis at all). You’re the one bringing up individuals. I asked what you thought of the system as a whole, that can easily be understood in all its dogmatic particulars by simply consulting official sources, just as we are referred to the Westminster Confession or what not in order to learn what an orthodox Reformed Protestant believes.
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We’re not sent to the local Reformed drunk down at the bar at the corner to learn that. Nor should you consult a high school dropout Catholic construction worker or 90 year old lady playing Bingo to determine the nature of Catholic theology. Your responsibility is to consult the best Catholic sources you can find, just as I have the same responsibility in charity and intellectual honesty, towards any given Protestant tradition.
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we are not going to answer you without some further qualification. And even for the conservative Catholics who can spout Ott and Denzinger and so on, the fact that they possess a certain body of knowledge does not make them a Christian. Again, we would need more information.
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So your position is that espousal of a creed or confession thought to be orthodox has no bearing on whether one can properly be called a Christian? You don’t know the state of a person’s soul (what might be called the spiritual or “metaphysical” dimension of being a Christian). John Calvin taught that no one knows who is elect, with certainty. You claim no one can ever fall away from salvation, but you can’t know who is or isn’t a Christian on a behavioral basis, because you don’t know the future.
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If someone is caught stealing or whoring or lying in your circles, you immediately conclude they were never among you. But you didn’t know that the day before. In many cases, such people were thought to be upstanding members of the local church. Therefore, because we don’t have certainty in these respects, a doctrinal criterion of what a Christian is, is in the end, the only reasonable and possible way to categorize and classify. And this is why you have creeds and confessions and mandatory dogmas, just as we do.
One other thing to note that I have often reminded the conservative Catholics who post here and other such loops is that outside of these Internet forums we rarely meet conservatives like them. 
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That’s right. And I rarely meet conservative Protestants, either. So what? We committed, educated Christians of all stripes are a rare breed. Always have been, always will be. Why should this surprise anyone?
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I agree here, Dave. I think you and I have both gravitated to relatively small segments within Catholicism and Protestantism. But one of the issues that we have with Catholicism is that the liberal, heretics, and syncretists are still called “Catholics.” In the Reformed communions we don’t call those who deny Christ by any sort of Christian name. We remove those who deny Christ (or they remove us).
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Jesus talked about the narrow way, and “few are chosen,” etc. All the more reason to evangelize and share what we have found: the pearl of great price. I have devoted my life to it.
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Catholicism is what it is, not what the conservatives would like it to be. 
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It is what it is; right! And I am saying it is simple to find that out. Go read the Catechism. Go read Trent and Vatican II. Read Ott and Denzinger.
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I have read quite a bit of the CCC and Trent and a little of Ott. But the heretics and the liberals read the same Church tradition as Ott, etc but come to different conclusions. The conservatives believe that Ott, etc’s understanding of the tradition of the Church is the correct one, but so do all the other groups within (and outside of ) Rome. So why should I conclude that the conservatives such as yourself have gotten it right?
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By the same method that I can conclude that the conservatives such as yourself have gotten it right within the Reformed tradition. Things are what they are. It’s not difficult to identify the mainstream of any given Christian tradition, and it is usually easy as pie to spot the so-called “progressives” and dissidents and liberals. They always make it easy because they are so extreme. The Catholic liberal denies Catholic dogmas. It’s really no more complicated than that.
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Dave – That’s fine, we see this. But the Catholic liberal is Catholic just like the Catholic conservative.
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Unfortunately, on a local level, too many liberals are going around speaking for the Church and wreaking havoc. But there comes a point when discipline is imposed. Hans Kung, e.g., is no longer to be regarded as a Catholic theologian.
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As for dissenters; someone thinks PCA [Presbyterian Church in America] is free from all such problems? That ain’t what I saw in the thread, “Problems in the PCA?” (from Reformed forum) — filled with anecdotes of all sorts of internal difficulties. Or how about: “The Gospel Crisis in the OPC and PCA,” by Brian Schwertley?
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I was in the Protestant world, too, you know. I know what goes on. Liberalism is a problem almost everywhere, and where it isn’t, there are other problems of being too insular and exclusionary, anti-intellectual, and so forth, due to being too isolated and sectarian.
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You asked us originally what we think of Catholicism and faithful Catholics, and I am responding with a question for further qualification as far as what part of Catholicism you are speaking of. 

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Historic orthodox Catholicism, of course.

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If one wants to know what it is, one reads the Catechism, councils, papal encyclicals; aided (if necessary) by summaries and outlines like Denzinger, Ott, popular works of apologetics, Q&A Internet forums, etc.
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I’d be happy to tell you what we believe on any given thing. It’s not rocket science. It’s no different than my asking you what Presbyterians believe about such-and-such. You cite your sources and you tell me the answer (unless the question involves an extraordinarily difficult matter like the definition of “Christianity” :-). But you have far more internal division than we do, as proven by the endless disputes y’all are in now, as always (Federal Vision, Reconstructionism, Auburn Avenue, N. T. Wright and works of the law, Lordship salvation, etc.).
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Our beliefs are clear. Dissidents dissent from them, by definition. You guys have dissidents and liberals; so do we. It’s a fact of life. They don’t define what the belief-system is. The fact that there were Arians in the 4th century did not “prove” that, therefore, orthodox trinitarian Christianity was not able to be known and identified. People forsake historic Christian beliefs because they lack faith and the grace of God and/or are sinning (esp. in all the sexual areas).
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And then as Lane said, if you ask us to speak of who is and who is not a Christian we want to know what YOU think is a Christian before we answer. The problem is not our coming up with a definition, but rather understanding what YOUR definition is.
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I already gave my definition several times above, long before any of you gave yours. For example, in #210:

My nutshell definition is: one who is a trinitarian, accepts the gospel (defined by the Bible itself) and the saving work of Jesus Christ on the cross on his behalf, and accepts the Nicene Creed.

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The Protestant liberal (as in Machen’s analyses) denies Protestant dogmas. Are you saying you can’t figure out what the Catholic dogmas are? Jeff above certainly knew that the perpetual virginity of Mary was one such dogma, didn’t he?
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There are lots of liberals and gross sinners in our ranks (just as in yours) but that doesn’t change a whit what a thing is. It only shows that folks are hypocrites and sinners and inconsistent, and I should think that any thinking, self-reflective Christian already knows this from experience (and looking in the mirror).
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And the conservatives such as yourself are a relatively rare breed from what we can see. 
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Just as conservatives like you are in your ranks. You are in your cozy little sub-stratum and social club, just as I am (we must pick our mates very selectively these days). It’s no different. Outside of our small enclaves of traditionalism or orthodoxy there are many heterodox people.
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Do you understand what I’m getting at? 
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I do fully, and I disagree in large part on the grounds that I am explaining. One can only sensibly define “Christianity” doctrinally. You do it in your confessions; we do it in our councils and dogmatic proclamations. So I continue to press you guys to tell me why Catholic theology isn’t Christian in a way that you would not say of any traditional Protestant denomination? Why are we “apostate”? What is the gospel? These are fundamental questions but they are not being answered. Eventually I’ll give up asking, but I think it is only for your good if you work out answers to crucial presuppositional questions.
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We generally are not going to analyze the “official” theology of Rome to see who is in accord with it and who is not. 
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Alright; then I’ll ignore all your confessions, too, and act as if any Protestant Tom, Dick, or Harry on the street represents your beliefs as a Reformed Protestant.
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Do you really mean this? If it is on record that a given preacher in the PCA is a minister in good standing in the PCA will you take this on faith or will you analyze his confession and practice to determine if he really is in accord with the WCF and other standards?
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I was flipping your own treatment of Catholicism back on you, doing a reductio ad absurdum. You see it is unacceptable; therefore, you shouldn’t be so skeptical of what is Catholic orthodoxy, as if it is difficult to figure out. You illustrated my point perfectly in your reply. Thanks! :-)
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Arminians are the same as Calvinists. Hyper-faith Pentecostals are in your camp and no different from you. Jimmy Swaggart and Jim Bakker are “your guys.” I won’t make any crucial distinctions among Protestant groups even though we Catholics are constantly excoriated for supposedly being so stupid and clueless about such things. See how it works? I’m only applying your own reasoning back to you, as a reductio ad absurdum.
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We are going to assume that someone is Catholic if they are a member in good standing of the RCC.
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And in return I will assume everyone is a good Protestant who says they are a Christian or a Protestant, no matter how ridiculous their beliefs may be: KJV-only, denial of the Trinity (UPC, Christadelphian, Unitarians), denial of the necessity of baptism (Salvation Army, Quakers), etc. I’ll assume they’re all the same in the big, happy family of Protestantism!
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Can you not see how impossible (and unfair) such a chain of reasoning is? I owe it to you as a Reformed Christian to get your beliefs right, just as you owe it to me as a Catholic to have at least a rudimentary understanding of what orthodox Catholicism is. And we both ought to know that we know what a Christian is.

Good, but what is a Christian in the first place?

Acts 11: So for a whole year Barnabas and Saul met with the church and taught great numbers of people. The disciples were called Christians first at Antioch.
 
We actually have a stipulated definition for the word “Christian”: disciples of Christ. In the terms of the Confession, then, a “Christian” is anyone who belongs to the invisible Church.
 
In terms of our identification of Christians, it would seem reasonable to call a Christian anyone who belongs to the visible Church.
 
And that church is more or less visible in different congregations; and some congregations have degenerated so as to be no longer churches.
 
So the question of whether or not Catholics are “Christians” is really two-fold:
 
(1) Are Catholics members of the invisible church? (I would answer: In many cases, yes.)
 
(2) Is the Catholic church still a part of the visible Church, so that Catholics are identifiable as Christians? (I would answer: It appears to be just on the boundary).
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I heartily thank Jeff Cagle for the most concise, sensible answer to my queries about who is a Christian. See, it wasn’t that hard to do (which is what I’ve maintained all along).
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Thanks [Jeff] for your further comments. I suspected you would take the umpire analogy in the direction you did [see comment #314]. The Catholic Church arbitrarily creates dogma, just like the umpire “created” a fake hit and ruined the perfect game . . . It’s simply not true.

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(originally posted on 6-5-10)

Photo credit: jeffjacobs1990 (1-24-19) [Pixabay /  Pixabay License]

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2019-12-24T13:14:46-04:00

I’m not simply giving my opinions, but seeking to always represent the Catholic Church’s teachings. Paraphrases of actual questions asked are in blue.

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Why would Onan be killed for the sin of contraception, and why was this such a rare occurrence?

The problem of the contraception advocate (and believer in biblical inspiration, and one who assumes that God is not an arbitrary, capricious, cosmic tyrant) lies in explaining why Onan was killed at all, if contraception is so innocent of any wrongness. I’ve dealt with the Onan passage at length:

Why Did God Kill Onan? (The Bible on Contraception) [2-9-04]

Dialogue: Why Did God Kill Onan? (Contraception) [2-13-04]

Biblical Data Against Contraception: Onan’s Sin and Punishment: a Concise “Catholic” Argument  [3-7-14]

Celibacy is not “natural”.

Priestly celibacy is not a matter of renunciation of the natural per se; it is an embracing of the spiritual higher calling of total consecration to God. The latter is an explicit biblical concept: dealt with at length by St. Paul in 1 Corinthians 7. That is not anti-natural in a Manichaean or Gnostic sense because no priest is saying that marriage or sexuality is evil in and of itself. It is heroic renunciation of what is good, for the sake of following God with undivided commitment, as the Apostle Paul explained.

Contraception, on the other hand, involves another human being: the one who might exist but for the selfish and deliberate act to engage in sex without being open to the possibility of what sex was designed by God to produce: a new human being. So there is no ethical equation between the two things at all.

Is getting pets fixed a sin?

I don’t believe so. Animals do not have rational souls. That makes them fundamentally different from human beings. They are not made in God’s image. That is why killing a deer to eat meat is not an act of murder.

Can Catholics morally decide when to have children and how many?

Blessed Pope Paul VI said “yes” in Humanae Vitae. It is reasonable to space and limit children for the appropriate reasons. To use my own example: my wife has had six miscarriages, two seriously problematic pregnancies (we’re talking bed rest for months, etc.), very serious post-partum depression, and we’ve never had much money (apologetics not being a lucrative profession, and she home-schools, so we don’t have two incomes). Those are all quite sufficient reasons to limit further children. So we tried not to after two, but lo and behold, God had other plans. He gave us two more, including our first daughter (our fourth of four). And praise God that He did!

The difference between artificial conception and NFP may be subtle, but it is crucial and essential. I have described it as follows:

1. Contraception:

A) Deliberately willing the nonexistence of this possible child that might be conceived as a result of this act of intercourse, and the regarding of such a child as an “accident” rather than part of God’s will and providence.

B) This mentality is what led inexorably to legal abortion (not inevitably as an opinion in every individual case — I was always a strong pro-lifer when I contracepted — , but as a general principle of applying the notion of a child being an “accident” or “unwanted”).

C) Even in terms of legal case law precedent, legal contraception led to legal abortion.

2. Natural Family Planning:

A) The decision to not conceive a child at a given time, for legitimate, grave reasons, without refusing the possibilities of a child being conceived in a particular conjugal act (the non-willing of a particular child), since that act did not take place.

B) A refusal to separate the pleasure of sex from its deepest purpose, and willingness to always keep them together, or else to abstain in order to maintain the natural pairing and unity of the two aspects.

C) Acceptance of any children conceived as a result of improper practice of NFP as a gift of God (i.e., God knows more than we do about the future and our circumstances).

Again, this is very subtle, but it is a real and important difference. If anyone has difficulty understanding the above distinction, just read it a few times and think about it. For further reading along these lines:

Contraception: Early Church Teaching (William Klimon) [1998]

Dialogue: Contraception vs. NFP: Crucial Ethical Distinctions [2-16-01]

Luther and Calvin Opposed Contraception and “Fewer Children is Better” Thinking [2-21-04; published at National Catholic Register, 9-13-17]

Biblical Evidence Against Contraception [5-3-06]

Dialogue: Contraception & Natural Family Planning (NFP) [5-16-06]

Humanae Vitae: (1968): Infallible Teaching Against Contraception [12-31-07]

Bible on the Blessing of [Many] Children [3-9-09]

Natural Family Planning (NFP) & “Contraceptive Intent” [8-28-13]

Dialogue on NFP: Anti-Sex and Anti-Pleasure? [1-23-17]

Is Natural Family Planning a ‘Heresy’? [Catholic teaching as far back as 1853] (Fr. Brian W. Harrison, Roman Theological Forum, January 2003)

The Church does not require Catholics to simply “leave everything to God” or to “let nature take its course.” No; God includes human beings in important choices. We are not obliged to have 20 kids. We are obliged to abstain from sexual activity during fertile periods if in fact we have appropriate reasons to limit children. This is a huge difference. What is prohibited is the contralife will and thwarting of natural law. Simple abstention does not do that. See:

“Divine Family Planning” (Unlimited Children / Anti-NFP): Critique [9-20-08]

Unlimited Children for Catholics? Reply to a Slanderer [2-3-18]

Is this not an instance of the Church unduly interfering with people’s private lives?

The conception of life is an extremely serious matter. It is within the Church’s purview to protect innocent life and to uphold the dignity of both new life and of the act of marriage. Our society has taken an extremely beautiful thing and made it selfish pleasure. This has in turn led to the denigration of women because they have been made into objects. NFP is beautiful because it creates oneness and understanding in the marriage relationship. Marital chastity is a great virtue to cultivate. I do not own my wife. She is not some sex slave every time I get in the mood. This is why the theology of the body is such a timely topic today. It’s a sorely needed message.

Can you explain the logic of never allowing a separation of the unitive and procreative functions of sex?

The point is not that intense pleasure has to be present every time a couple have sex. Any married couple knows that is not the case. The point is the prohibition of deliberate separation of sex from procreation, so that the latter is rendered naturally impossible or nearly so. It is referring to the immoral deliberate separation of the two functions, not making a positive pronouncement.

So if you don’t intend to have sex at the right time, according to the Church, don’t hug or touch your spouse!

There is plenty of affection that can be had without it intending to “go all the way”, as anyone who has managed to succeed in a chaste premarital relationship knows firsthand.

Why assume that God can’t overcome the obstacle of birth control if He wants a child conceived?

God can do whatever He wants. This isn’t about God, but about the human contralife will. God gave us a free will to do evil and also to understand why something is evil and to stop doing it (with the necessary aid of His wonderful enabling grace).

Is NFP acceptable because it is natural, as opposed to artificial contraception?

The ethical difference is not “natural vs. unnatural” but rather: “contralife intent vs. openness to life.” The contracepting couple has sex whenever they want, with little chance of becoming pregnant. The NFP couple abstains during fertile periods if they have a proper reason to not have further children. That doesn’t separate the two functions because it honors God by not having sex anyway during fertile periods, and making it virtually impossible to conceive (as contracepting couples do). NFP is in accordance with the natural rhythms of the reproductive cycle and natural law. The ethical distinction has been put as follows:

1) Contraception: avoiding this child that would be conceived if one had been open to life, and seeking to block any possible conception.

2) NFP: avoiding conception by abstention, while accepting an unplanned conception that occurs as God’s will for the couple and the new life.

Used correctly and properly, NFP is as effective statistically as the Pill in avoiding pregnancy, and does not cause early abortions, as the pill does. It’s not contralife. If a couple learns it and uses it properly, it is extremely trustworthy, because it is based on the physiological signs of when a woman is fertile, which can be learned.

Why is sex during pregnancy or post-menopause okay, since there is no chance for procreation?

Because no one is deliberately trying to avoid conception. That has been taken out of the equation by God’s will for the ending of the reproductive capacity in the post-menopausal woman and the inability of a pregnant woman to conceive during that time.

The evil lies in the “contralife” intent and goal.

The sin lies in deliberately having sex when the woman is fertile but frustrating what would possibly happen naturally, by contracepting. This is having sex purely for pleasure’s sake. The NFP couple will abstain during those times if they are planning not to have more children.

So at times sex for pleasure is okay, when the woman is infertile and there is complete openness to the small possibility of conception?

Yes. Being open to life means there is no contralife will, wherein the evil lies. The Church has never opposed sex during pregnancy, or menstruation, or between a man and a woman who is infertile, or between a man with an inadequate sperm count and a woman, or for older couples (post-menopausal women). These situations do not involve the deliberate artificial suppression of what might happen, because fertility is rendered impossible or highly unlikely due to reasons other than the couple’s deliberate acts of artificial prevention.

 

But isn’t this a bunch of unreasonable legalistic rules? It takes all the fun and spontaneity out of sex! Isn’t good intention and being loving more important than legalistic rules?

If one goes this route without examining and pondering the reasons for why the Church forbids certain acts then I don’t see how or why homosexual acts or bestiality or masturbation (or adulterous intercourse, for that matter) wouldn’t also be allowed as permissible, by the same token. People who advocate those things have all sorts of defenses based on how loving they are and with what pure motivation they engage in the acts. We also have to examine the thing itself. Now, I’m not saying that everyone who reasons in such a fashion advocates these other things. I’m saying that the reasoning used reduces to a state of affairs where it seems that those things would be sanctioned by the same reasoning. It’s what is called in logic a reductio ad absurdum, in other words.

Many respond to these teachings and restrictions emotionally (understandably so). It is a serious ethical issue that cannot be approached purely on an emotional level, but has to be carefully thought about and reasoned through.

But wouldn’t these teachings cause many to leave the Church or choose to sin in order to preserve the happiness in their marriage?

That is never the only choice. If one believes that the Church’s teachings are true, one is duty-bound to follow them. And whether the teachings are true does not depend on emotional reaction to the truths. That must be based on faith and reasoning and examination. And if what is included in that truth is sexual morality and ethics, then one must follow that, too. Many folks think this is too difficult? I don’t think so. Longtime Christians have read in the Bible that “I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me” and understand enabling grace.

Christians have the Holy Spirit living within them. They have the benefit of the sacrament of baptism. It is amazing what people can do with the power of faith and a loving God giving them the ability to do so. So this is also a test of faith. But what it is not is merely an emotional question that can be decided on those grounds alone.

No one said Christianity was easy. The sexual teachings are very difficult. If one is in a situation where an annulment is required, that is not the Church’s or God’s fault. Arguably it may not be the fault of the person seeking it, either, depending on the situation, but it is certainly not the fault of the Church that a person gets into such a situation in the first place.

But God does promise that we can endure virtually anything with His help and aid. We’re all faced with this in a variety of ways, not just sexual. We mustn’t buy the devil’s lie that we have no choice but to sin. That is never the case. People have chosen to die rather than deny the truths of the faith or God Himself. If they could do that, certainly we can go through far less difficult things, compared to being eaten by a lion, or starving to death in a dungeon.

What does “unitive function” mean in Catholic teaching?

In Catholic sexual teaching it means the pleasure of moral (marital) sexuality and the intense, beautiful bonding and oneness that occurs between a man and wife as a result: a picture of the unity and love between Christ and His Church.

Is this not a type of Puritanistic or Victorian disdain of sexuality?

The Church is not “puritanistic” or prudish or somehow against the pleasure of sex or against anyone enjoying it (though this is a very widespread stereotype). Part of the joy of moral sex is that it involves no guilt brought on by some sin involved. In fact, it is known now through several scientific polling studies that so-called more “progressive” or “promiscuous” couples who “played the field” quite a bit are actually less sexually fulfilled in the long term than a Christian couple who goes to church every week and are serious about their faith and walk with Jesus. Catholic morality is the means to obtain a truly fulfilling sexual happiness for life. That sure ain’t the stereotype, but it is based on the facts, that can be verified.

What about having to abstain from sex and living like a brother and sister while awaiting an annulment of a previous marriage? Surely this is an unreasonable and impossible demand, no?

If one is in a relationship situation while a previous ostensible “marriage” in all likelihood going to be proclaimed not a marriage at all, according to Church teaching (i.e., annulled), then before the actual decision, if the couple believes that the Church is correct in its assessment, they would have no choice but to abstain from sexual relations; otherwise it would be objectively adultery. They would even be duty-bound in conscience to do so. Cohabitation involves the same type of sin for never-marrieds: sex outside of a properly-determined bond of marriage.

Such a couple should abstain precisely because it has been determined that they are not properly married. Once that is settled then there is no problem. The Church only suggests abstinence in cases where there is an irregularity of a previous (civil) marriage or when there has not yet been a marriage (i.e., it prohibits cohabitation).

The Catholic Church tries to follow God’s morality as best as is possible, by God’s grace. What God teaches us is always best for us, no matter how difficult it may be. We cannot deliberately choose sin; knowing it to be sin.

There is no overemphasizing the extreme importance of wisdom and discretion in choosing a spouse. One’s entire future life will be affected by that decision. It should be soaked in prayer and consultation.

How should Catholics and other Christians discuss sex in mixed company?

It can easily cross the line into impropriety (and quite possibly an occasion of sin for some), to discuss the topic in certain “overly inquisitive” ways. We can talk about it within certain bounds. Catholics and those with a healthy Christian view of sexuality are not (or should not be) prudes and Puritans. But we want to avoid going too far in the other direction, too. Openness and frankness is good to a point, as long as the discussion doesn’t cross certain lines of violation of privacy and titillation. I think we all pretty much know where that line lies.

Christians are different from our larger culture, which we know is sex-crazed. That doesn’t mean we cover it up and don’t talk about it. Not at all. Quite the contrary: we need to “reclaim” sexuality from pagan, selfish culture. This was, in fact, a significant goal of the late great Pope St. John Paul II, in his teaching on theology of the body, which was a wonderful and much-needed development in theology. But we must always keep in mind certain precautions and prudential matters in discussing it that are appropriate for a Christian. We don’t want to cause anyone to stumble (definitely a biblical principle, from St. Paul).

Sexual talk has a way of crossing that line very quickly, just as us weak men can look at a beautiful woman, and before long, we can easily be in moral trouble with lust. We need to strive for a balance between an open, positive discussion of sexuality: God’s great gift, and elements that many would not consider edifying.

What can be done about the widespread problem of pornography?

Pornographic addiction is a huge problem. I think it should be attacked not only from a 12-step program, like other addictions, but from a searing analysis of why someone feels a need to get into it in the first place. All of us men know that it is very easy to fall into lust. That much is no mystery whatsoever. We know we have to watch ourselves and be vigilant at all times against that. Women can speak to what is difficult for them, but (speaking as a man just about men for a moment) I think both sexes know the problem that men have with the visual aspect of sexuality and getting carried away with fantasies and temptation.

It’s quite easy to explain pornographic addiction by the visual aspect of men’s sexuality, but I still think there are other and/or deeper causes that contribute to one man falling into this, whereas the next man does not. I’m no expert on what these deeper causes might be (there could be a number of them). I’m just speculating out loud.

I do know that both husbands and wives can fall into a sort of prudery or lack of interest in sex that can cause the spouse to suffer needlessly, and I think those situations need to be dealt with pronto, to correct them, before more serious problems arise (pornography, adultery, masturbation, divorce, strained relations in general). Marriage is not to be that way, but rather, the “two are one flesh.” We need to think of how to please our spouse, as an expression of love, and to be open to new life in doing so, so that the pleasure is not an end in itself.

The biology doesn’t take planning and preparation. Everyone understands the basics of that! But the larger picture of love, caring, concern, romance, commitment and expression of same, pleasing the other, appreciation, holidays and special times, getting away, creating romantic environments and atmosphere, takes a great deal of preparation, and I think they are supremely important (and strongly urge all men to ponder this if they haven’t done so much up till now).

As a guy who is approaching 50, I can testify that these things become more important the older you get. I believe this is generally true of men. We actually become more like women in that regard (which is great). As we get older, the non-physical and “psychological ” aspects of romance, etc. (or physical things like perfume, enticing lingerie, etc.) become more important. And, I understand that a woman’s sexual drive often increases, the older she gets, so they become more like men. The two genders thus become more alike as time goes on. This is great news!

These sorts of things may help to prevent a temptation to access pornography. Make your sexual life with your spouse exciting and enticing and adventurous (without sinning, of course!).

Can you talk a bit about the Catholic view regarding orgasm?

There is nothing wrong whatsoever with orgasm. It was God’s idea. It’s pleasurable by its nature, and designed by God as such, so we should not frown upon the pleasure at all. It’s a gift from God. It becomes wrong when made an end in itself (as discussed above). That rules out all forms of it that are separated from vaginal intercourse (for the male) or during or at least close in time to intercourse for the female. The Church doesn’t require female orgasm to always have to be literally during intercourse, but it should be connected to it time-wise (in proximity) and not separated so that it is an entity in and of itself, since the latter would hardly be distinguishable from masturbation, which is an objectively mortal sin. In other words, it must maintain some connection to openness to new life in sexual relations, which is intercourse.

It so happens that male orgasm is directly tied to biological procreation, but it doesn’t follow from that that the pleasure is somehow a bad or shameful thing. It’s not at all. The female orgasm has no strictly biological function. It is purely (like taste buds) for pleasure and that is how God designed it.

The emphasis above is on “strictly” and “function.” When I say “biological” here, I mean some function that perpetuates a biological organism or has a place in a hierarchy of other such biological functions. For example, digestion is a necessary function for the processing of food: without which we cannot survive. It’s not optional in terms of actual survival. Likewise, breathing, heartbeat, the immune system, etc.

One direct analogy in this respect to orgasm (as indicated) is taste buds. These are not absolutely biologically necessary, strictly speaking. If we didn’t have them, it wouldn’t make a bit of difference, in terms of being able to eat and receiving the benefits therefrom. God gave us taste buds because He likes physical things. He wanted us to have an additional sense to enjoy His creation.

If we talk in the very broadest sense, we could make an argument that taste buds and female orgasm serve a biological purpose in relaxing or pleasing a woman, which is important to psychological well-being and thus indirectly productive of health, given the mind-body relationship, etc. I realize that, which is why I was careful to throw the word “strictly” in there.

My larger (positive, not negative) point was that God likes pleasure. In other words, “He created the female orgasm strictly for pleasure, because He likes pleasure and wants us to experience it. Therefore, we ought to like such pleasure too.” This crushes the notion that God is somehow against either sex or the pleasure in sex. And it goes against the idea that pleasure is not a necessary component to the complete sexual experience between man and wife.

A man who neglects his wife’s orgasm is sinning greatly against her and causing a possible occasion of sin. This is not God’s will. If he doesn’t know what he is doing and can’t bring it about, then he ought to learn yesterday and stop exploiting his wife. If men like that were required to not have an orgasm themselves every time they didn’t care about whether they wife enjoyed one, they would learn quick enough! Likewise, a wife who shows little interest in fulfilling her husband’s legitimate needs, sins against him. This becomes especially important in the context of NFP, where communication is crucial, to know “when” and “when not to.” Communication and openness are the keys to that.

I think it is important that both husbands and wives treat their spouses with the courtesy that they extend to any stranger on the phone or at the bank or supermarket. Stuff like that creates an atmosphere where sex will be more desired and more satisfying. It begins in the kitchen or at the front door when one spouse arrives home after work, etc., etc. Look nice and act your best as much as possible for your spouse. Act like you did on your first date and you can’t go far wrong.

Orgasm on its own with no connection whatsoever to intercourse, as an end in itself leading to climax (i.e., not as a form of foreplay) is clearly condemned by the Church’s teaching on moral marital sexuality, as a species of the larger set of acts that violate the inherent bond between sexuality and openness to life. It would be essentially the same as mutual (“consummated”) masturbation, and masturbation is clearly objectively a mortal sin in Catholic teaching.

Homosexual sex would be another example of the same principle. It is wrong because it is 1) unnatural (St. Paul’s argument in Romans 1) and 2) intrinsically non-procreative. Any ejaculation outside of vaginal intercourse is prohibited. This is also the basis for the prohibitions of masturbation and sodomy.

The Catechism implies the same in its prohibition of masturbation (#2352) and homosexual acts (#2357). The latter states in part:

Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity, tradition has always declared that “homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered.” They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity.

But in any event, the Church is not against female orgasm! If it doesn’t occur during intercourse (which is quite common, I suspect), then it is fully permissible to obtain it by other means in proximity to intercourse, but not separated from it. This is important because some might misinterpret Church teaching to mean that intercourse excludes orgasm, if the latter didn’t occur during the former, and in so doing, is somehow “anti-women.” Quite the contrary. The female orgasm can be sought either before or after intercourse, as long as it is not separated from intercourse, becoming, in effect, masturbation.

The Church is not “anti-pleasure.” Nor is God, since He created taste buds that have no relation to nutrition and the female orgasm that has no intrinsic biological connection to reproduction. Biologically speaking, or in terms of survival, neither is (strictly) necessary at all. God designed them for pleasure. But both work in conjunction with things that do have practical functions: the nutrition that food is primarily intended to give and the reproduction that is the deepest purpose of sexuality.

***

Unfortunately, Money Trees Do Not ExistIf you have been aided in any way by my work, or think it is valuable and worthwhile, please strongly consider financially supporting it (even $10 / month — a mere 33 cents a day — would be very helpful). I have been a full-time Catholic apologist since Dec. 2001, and have been writing Christian apologetics since 1981 (see my Resume). My work has been proven (by God’s grace alone) to be fruitful, in terms of changing lives (see the tangible evidences from unsolicited “testimonies”). I have to pay my bills like all of you: and have a (homeschooling) wife and three children still at home to provide for, and a mortgage to pay.
*
My book royalties from three bestsellers in the field (published in 2003-2007) have been decreasing, as has my overall income, making it increasingly difficult to make ends meet.  I provide over 2600 free articles here, for the purpose of your edification and education, and have written 50 books. It’ll literally be a struggle to survive financially until Dec. 2020, when both my wife and I will be receiving Social Security. If you cannot contribute, I ask for your prayers (and “likes” and links and shares). Thanks!
*
See my information on how to donate (including 100% tax-deductible donations). It’s very simple to contribute to my apostolate via PayPal, if a tax deduction is not needed (my “business name” there is called “Catholic Used Book Service,” from my old bookselling days 17 or so years ago, but send to my email: [email protected]). Another easy way to send and receive money (with a bank account or a mobile phone) is through Zelle. Again, just send to my e-mail address. May God abundantly bless you.

***

(originally 1-1-08; minor editing and links revised or added: 7-27-18)

Photo credit: Adam and Eve (c. 1508), by Jan Gossaert (1478-1532) [public domain / Wikimedia Commons]

***

 

2019-11-06T17:32:02-04:00

A guy “Matt” appeared underneath my article,  Taylor Marshall Conspiracy Theories: Why I Ignore Them, and offered a highly imaginary and fictional opinion whereby he thinks I am almost entirely silent about theologically liberal / modernists / heterodox / dissidents in the Catholic Church. Nothing could be further from the truth. He must have been living on another planet these last twenty years. This is my reply. His words will be in blue.

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Dave, as one the Traditionalists you continually malign,

I don’t malign traditionalists (of which I am virtually one), but the false ideas of radical Catholic reactionaries. I draw a stark distinction between the two groups. If you have read for more than an hour any of my papers on these topics, you would know that. But alas . . . I love constructive criticism. But what I detest is unnecessary misrepresentation of what I believe. There’s no excuse. Do your research before you come blasting away at me or anyone else. Otherwise, you come off looking like a fool, as you do here. Do your homework!

I want to express my main objection with you’re [sic] critiques of the Traditionalist movement.

You have gotten the premise wrong, as I just explained, but we’ll see what you got.

You have claimed elsewhere that Modernism is the primary problem facing the church. Recently, you were even critical of “Extraordinary” Eucharistic Ministers. I’m sure I speak for many traditionalists when I say I was pleased to see such developments.

That’s not a recent development at all for me. I first wrote about it twice in 2008. The recent article was a re-posting of one of those. And I did because this is what I have always believed, based on attending a parish since 1991 that rarely uses such ministers, and has altar rails, etc. As I said, I am virtually a traditionalist myself (especially liturgically). Anyone who has actually followed my writing or took any time at all to figure out what I believe knows this.

However, your criticism is vastly disproportionate. You have written an entire book against “Radical Traditionalists”

Two books.

yet you’ve not written any such missive against the “Radical Liberalism.”

This is not true. I devoted half of one book to it (and you could have figured this out, too, in five minutes of searching): Twin Scourges: Thoughts on Anti-Catholicism & Theological Liberalism (2003).

You constantly malign Trads but–as far as I’m aware–have not lifted your pen once against, say, James Martin or Hans Kung or–frankly–99% of “Catholic” colleges, schools and “theologians.”

This is utterly absurd. “As far as I am aware” my foot! Again, with a minimum of effort searching my site, surely you could have discovered my web page on theological liberalism. All of two days ago, I put up a post in which I vigorously disagreed that all male priests is a “sexist” idea. I haven’t written specifically about Fr. Martin, but I have written many articles about the homosexual issue.

I recently linked an article about him in which he said the Bible was wrong about homosexuality. Recently, I’ve written a lot about masturbation as well, as seen on the same web page (very last section). And I posted about what C. S. Lewis believed (very critically) about theological liberals and the documentary theory. I constantly deal with liberal garbage in my refutations of atheists who go after the Bible. So, for example, I have an upcoming article in Catholic Answers Magazine to be published soon, about how liberals and atheists deny that Jesus was born in Bethlehem, and one soon in Catholic World Report defending the virgin birth against its liberal detractors.

In my (four) Newman and Chesterton quotations books, liberalism takes a great battering.

So I’ve done a great deal. You just didn’t know about it. I do write relatively more, though, about reactionaries for one main reason: I think they know much better (usually being orthodox in theology) and can possibly be persuaded out of their errors, whereas the modernist / liberal / dissident is fundamentally dishonest. I don’t have much patience with the latter, but despite that, I still have addressed their errors many many times.

I’ve seen you go after LifeSite, Church Militant, OnePeterFive, etc.

Yes, because they are reactionary.

Yet, there are no posts here against the National Catholic Reporter, CRUX or your fellow Patheos bloggers most of whom dissent from Church teaching or you are obviously trying to lead the church in a very heretical/homosexual different direction.

I just explained why there are relatively less, but even so, you’re wrong on the facts again. I have critiqued Mark Shea (for political liberalism) many times on my Facebook page and a few times on my blog. I have critiqued, for example, Melinda Selmys: fellow Patheos blogger, who left the Church for Anglicanism. I’m not afraid to address anything or anyone. But I do have priorities in what I want to write about at any given time. I have over 2600 blog articles, and several hundred more on Facebook, plus fifty books. I considerably oppose any heterodoxy seeking to come into the Church.

This asymmetry is quite apparent to everyone on my side of the fence.

I suspect many of these folks are as abysmally ignorant as to what I have written about, as you are.

Most folks like myself are exhausted. As someone educated by Jesuits, I can assure you that the main problem is NOT that Sedevacantists or the SSPX are teaching kids that Vatican II is a heresy or that Benedict is still the “real” Pope. It is with outright homosexual modernists who teach kids that masturbation is a-ok, acceptance of gay marriage is just around the corner (thank god for that!) that we should refer to god as “She” as my Jesuit theology professor assured me, that abortion is fine and divorce is no big deal.

I’ve written scores of articles condemning all those things. And yet here you are bitching at me! One wonders what more one can do. Who else do you know who has repeatedly taken on all these errors? You tell me. The reactionaries are far too busy bashing the pope and Vatican II these days to have any time for lowly pursuits like defending Catholic doctrines and morals, as I do every day. I just defended purgatory and indulgences in my latest paper, put up less than an hour ago. I’m here every day defending Catholic truths and refuting and opposing error.

One of our masses on campus featured a Jesuit that informed us that voting against President Obama’s healthcare was an example of the sin of greed! Another informed me that Jesus was actually not “REALLY” God (from the pulpit!), and thus Confession was not really necessary. My friends who went to Xavier and Bellarmine told me their experiences were virtually identical. My friend who went to Notre Dame had an even worse experience! I have never met a single graduate of a Catholic High School who ever had a substantial Catholic education. I personally know two priest who have informed me they were sexually solicited by other priests. (Don’t worry! They were NO priests–certainly not Trads.)

Yep, there are tons of liberals around. You should have known that, based on your education. I’ve always known it. I detested liberalism even as an evangelical, from 1977-1990. I remember reading a Presbyterian book called Christianity and Liberalism. I’ve been a political conservative since 1980.

Yet, despite these blatant heresies and crimes, the Vatican has not investigated the Jesuits since Vatican II, but they did manage to investigate the FSSP (!) for heresy in 1999. Something you probably approve of, since it is we sinister Rad Trads who are undermining the Faith.

See my foregoing proofs of my detestation of liberalism in all its guises, follies, and outrages. And if you oppose political liberalism, too, there are very few online who have defended President Trump against the multitudinous calumnies more than I have (mostly on Facebook).

I’ve written a lot also, decrying and utterly detesting the sexual scandals, on my “Catholic Scandals” page.

Inquiring minds want to know, Dave. Why the silence on these key issues?

There is no “silence.” Does that satisfy your inquiring mind? Now will you go tell your friends that all these charges against me are myths, if not bald-faced lies? You have borne false witness, which is against the Ten Commandments. Now you know better and are responsible for what you know. You have no more zealous defender of orthodoxy and Catholic moral tradition than me. Yet you want to attack me, rather than establish common cause and fight liberal rotgut together.

You just don’t like it because I also oppose the errors in your camp. I’m neither left nor right. I’m radically orthodox, and proud to be so, by God’s grace.

***

 

Unfortunately, Money Trees Do Not Exist: If you have been aided in any way by my work, or think it is valuable and worthwhile, please strongly consider financially supporting it (even $10 / month — a mere 33 cents a day — would be very helpful). I have been a full-time Catholic apologist since Dec. 2001, and have been writing Christian apologetics since 1981 (see my Resume). My work has been proven (by God’s grace alone) to be fruitful, in terms of changing lives (see the tangible evidences from unsolicited “testimonies”). I have to pay my bills like all of you: and have a (homeschooling) wife and three children still at home to provide for, and a mortgage to pay.

*

My book royalties from three bestsellers in the field (published in 2003-2007) have been decreasing, as has my overall income, making it increasingly difficult to make ends meet.  I provide over 2600 free articles here, for the purpose of your edification and education, and have written 50 books. It’ll literally be a struggle to survive financially until Dec. 2020, when both my wife and I will be receiving Social Security. If you cannot contribute, I ask for your prayers. Thanks! See my information on how to donate (including 100% tax-deductible donations). It’s very simple to contribute to my apostolate via PayPal, if a tax deduction is not needed (my “business name” there is called “Catholic Used Book Service,” from my old bookselling days 17 or so years ago, but send to my email: [email protected]). Another easy way to send and receive money (with a bank account or a mobile phone) is through Zelle. Again, just send to my e-mail address. May God abundantly bless you.

***

2019-11-01T12:27:00-04:00

 

From: The Collected Letters of C. S. Lewis, Vol. II: Books, Broadcasts, and the War, 1931-1949, edited by Walter Hooper, HarperSanFrancisco, 2004:

The three ‘reasons’ for marrying, in modern English are (a) To have children. (b) Because you are very unlikely to succeed in leading a life of total sexual abstinence, and marriage is the only innocent outlet, (c) To be in a partnership. What is there to object to in the order in which they are put? . . .

[editor Walter Hooper added in a footnote: “Lewis is citing the service for the ‘Solemnization of Matrimony’ in the Book of Common Prayer: ‘First, It was ordained for the procreation of children . . . Secondly, It was ordained for a remedy against sin, and to avoid fornication . . . Thirdly, It was ordained for the mutual society, help, and comfort, that the one ought to have of the other.'”]

The Prayer Book therefore begins with something universal and solid — the biological aspect. No one is going to deny that the biological end of the sexual function is offspring. And this is, on any sane view, of more importance than the feelings of the parents. Your descendants may be alive a million years hence and may number tens of thousands. In this regard marriages are the fountains of History. Surely to put the mere emotional aspects first would be sheer sentimentalism. (18 April 1940, pp. 392-293)

As a bachelor I think I should be imprudent in attacking it [contraception]: on the other hand I should not like the job of defending it against the almost unbroken Christian disapproval. (19 August 1947, p. 798)

From: The Abolition of Man (New York: Macmillan, 1947):

As regards contraceptives, there is a paradoxical, negative sense in which all possible future generations are the patients or subjects of a power wielded by those already alive. By contraception simply, they are denied existence; by contraception used as a means of selective breeding, they are, without their concurring voice, made to be what one generation, for its own reasons, may choose to prefer. From this point of view, what we call Man’s power over Nature turns out to be a power exercised by some men over other men with Nature as its instrument. (pp. 68-69)

From: The Collected Letters of C. S. Lewis, Vol. III: Narnia, Cambridge, and Joy 1950-1963, edited by Walter Hooper, HarperSanFrancisco, 2007:

It certainly seems very hard that you should be told to arm the young against Venus without calling in Christ. . . . [N]ow that contraceptives have removed the more disastrous consequence for girls, and medicine has largely defeated the worst horrors of syphilis, what argument against promiscuity is there left which will influence the young unless one brings in the whole supernatural and sacramental view of man? (28 April 1955, p. 600)

Christians . . . of course agree that man & wife are ‘one flesh’ . . . this One Flesh must not (and in the long run cannot) ‘live to itself’ any more than the single individual. It was not made, any more than he, to be its own End. It was made for God and (in Him) for its neighbours — first and foremost among them the children it ought to have produced. (The idea behind your voluntary sterility, that an experience, e.g., maternity, which cannot be shared should on that account be avoided, is surely very unsound. For a. (forgive me) the conjugal act itself depends on opposite & reciprocal and therefore unshare-able experiences. . . .) (8 May 1955, pp. 605-606)

Related Reading:

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Why Did God Kill Onan? (The Bible on Contraception) [2-9-04]

Dialogue: Why Did God Kill Onan? (Contraception) [2-13-04]

Onan, Contraception, & Two Protestant Bible Dictionaries [2-21-04]

Biblical Data Against Contraception: Onan’s Sin and Punishment: a Concise “Catholic” Argument  [3-7-14]

Bible vs. Contraception: Onan’s Sin and Punishment [National Catholic Register, 5-30-17]

Dialogue w Several Non-Catholics on Contraception [1996 and 1998]

Contraception: Early Church Teaching (William Klimon) [1998]

Dialogue: Contraception vs. NFP: Crucial Ethical Distinctions [2-16-01]

Luther and Calvin Opposed Contraception and “Fewer Children is Better” Thinking [2-21-04; published at National Catholic Register, 9-13-17]

Biblical Evidence Against Contraception [5-3-06]

Dialogue: Contraception & Natural Family Planning (NFP) [5-16-06]

Humanae Vitae: (1968): Infallible Teaching Against Contraception [12-31-07]

Q & A: Catholic View on Sexual Morality & Contraception [1-1-08]

“Divine Family Planning” (Unlimited Children / Anti-NFP): Critique [9-20-08]

Bible on the Blessing of [Many] Children [3-9-09]

Protestants, Contraception, the Pill, & NFP [8-12-11]

Birth Control Pills Often Cause Early Abortions (Links) [8-12-11]

Natural Family Planning (NFP) & “Contraceptive Intent” [8-28-13]

Why Did Baker Books and Crossway Omit John Calvin’s Strong Remarks Against Contraception in His Commentaries (Genesis 38:10)? [9-14-13]

Dialogue on NFP: Anti-Sex and Anti-Pleasure? [1-23-17]

Unlimited Children for Catholics? Reply to a Slanderer [2-3-18]

Contraception and “Anti-Procreation” vs. Scripture [National Catholic Register, 6-6-18]

Contraception, Natural Law, & the Analogy to Nutrition [2-21-19]

A Defense of Natural Family Planning [National Catholic Register, 5-25-19]

***

Unfortunately, Money Trees Do Not Exist: If you have been aided in any way by my work, or think it is valuable and worthwhile, please strongly consider financially supporting it (even $10 / month — a mere 33 cents a day — would be very helpful). I have been a full-time Catholic apologist since Dec. 2001, and have been writing Christian apologetics since 1981 (see my Resume). My work has been proven (by God’s grace alone) to be fruitful, in terms of changing lives (see the tangible evidences from unsolicited “testimonies”). I have to pay my bills like all of you: and have a (homeschooling) wife and three children still at home to provide for, and a mortgage to pay.

*

My book royalties from three bestsellers in the field (published in 2003-2007) have been decreasing, as has my overall income, making it increasingly difficult to make ends meet.  I provide over 2600 free articles here, for the purpose of your edification and education, and have written 50 books. It’ll literally be a struggle to survive financially until Dec. 2020, when both my wife and I will start receiving Social Security. If you cannot contribute, I ask for your prayers. Thanks! See my information on how to donate (including 100% tax-deductible donations). It’s very simple to contribute to my apostolate via PayPal, if a tax deduction is not needed (my “business name” there is called “Catholic Used Book Service,” from my old bookselling days 17 or so years ago, but send to my email: [email protected]). Another easy way to send and receive money (with a bank account or a mobile phone) is through Zelle. Again, just send to my e-mail address. May God abundantly bless you.

***

Photo credit: Yjenith (3-16-12) [Wikimedia CommonsCreative Commons Attribution-Share Alike 2.0 Generic license]

***

2019-11-01T12:40:05-04:00

It’s a quite biblical theme: redemptive suffering, or joining our suffering with that of Christ (see several papers of mine on it, below); yet Protestants often do not address this scriptural theme, and claim that such a view denies the sole salvific / redemptive sufficiency of the cross and sacrifice of our Lord Jesus.

In any event, those who ignore this biblical motif and practice have to alternately explain several Bible passages that explicitly teach it. The Anglican C. S. Lewis (1898-1963): considered the most popular Christian apologist of the 20th century, did accept this notion.

From: The Collected Letters of C. S. Lewis, Vol. III: Narnia, Cambridge, and Joy 1950-1963, edited by Walter Hooper, HarperSanFrancisco, 2007:

It is very remarkable . . . that you should write about our vicarious sufferings . . .

I have not a word to say against the doctrine that Our Lord suffers in all the sufferings of His people (see Acts 9:6)

[actually, he refers to Acts 9:4-5 (RSV) And he fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to him, “Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?” [5] And he said, “Who are you, Lord?” And he said, “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting;”]

or that when we willingly accept what we suffer for others and offer it to God on their behalf, then it may be united with His sufferings and, in Him, may help to their redemption or even that of others whom we do not dream of. . . . The key text for this view is Colossians 1:24.

[Colossians 1:24 Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I complete what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church,]

Is it not, after all, one more application of the truth that we are all ‘members of one another’?

[Romans 12:5 so we, though many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another. ]

I wish I had known more when I wrote the Problem of Pain. (To Mary Van Deusen, 12 September 1951, pp. 134-135)

[S]uffering can (but oh!, with what difficulty) be offered to God as our part in the whole redemptive suffering of the world beginning with Christ’s own suffering. . . . sufferings . . . can be so taken that they are as saving and purifying as the voluntary sufferings of martyrs & ascetics. (To Mrs D. Jessup, 5 January 1954, p. 405)

Of course we have all been taught what to do with suffering — offer it in Christ to God as our little, little share of Christ’s sufferings — but it is so hard to do. . . . I suppose the great saints really want to share the divine sufferings and that is how they can actually desire pain. But this is far beyond me. (To Mary Willis-Shelburne, 26 April 1956, p. 743)

Related Reading:

*
*
*
Suffering With Christ is a Biblical Teaching [National Catholic Register, 3-27-18]
*
The Bible Says Your Suffering Can Help Save Others [National Catholic Register, 1-31-19]
*
Bodily Mortification is Quite Scriptural [National Catholic Register, 2-28-19]
*
See also other “Catholic” aspects of Lewis’ thought:
*
*
*
*

***

Unfortunately, Money Trees Do Not ExistIf you have been aided in any way by my work, or think it is valuable and worthwhile, please strongly consider financially supporting it (even $10 / month — a mere 33 cents a day — would be very helpful). I have been a full-time Catholic apologist since Dec. 2001, and have been writing Christian apologetics since 1981 (see my Resume). My work has been proven (by God’s grace alone) to be fruitful, in terms of changing lives (see the tangible evidences from unsolicited “testimonies”). I have to pay my bills like all of you: and have a (homeschooling) wife and three children still at home to provide for, and a mortgage to pay.
*

My book royalties from three bestsellers in the field (published in 2003-2007) have been decreasing, as has my overall income, making it increasingly difficult to make ends meet.  I provide over 2500 free articles here, for the purpose of your edification and education, and have written 50 books. It’ll literally be a struggle to survive financially until Dec. 2020, when both my wife and I will start receiving Social Security. If you cannot contribute, I ask for your prayers. Thanks! See my information on how to donate (including 100% tax-deductible donations). It’s very simple to contribute to my apostolate via PayPal, if a tax deduction is not needed (my “business name” there is called “Catholic Used Book Service,” from my old bookselling days 17 or so years ago). May God abundantly bless you.

***

Photo credit: Stigmatization of St. Francis (bet. 1295 and 1300), by Giotto (d. 1337) [public domain / Wikimedia Commons]

***

2019-11-01T12:37:27-04:00

The following excerpts are from: The Collected Letters of C. S. Lewis, Vol. II: Books, Broadcasts, and the War, 1931-1949, edited by Walter Hooper, HarperSanFrancisco, 2004:
[D]on’t count on any remarkable sensations, either at this [her Confirmation] or your first (of fifty first) Communion. God gives these or not as He pleases. Their presence does not prove that things are especially well, nor their absence that things are wrong. The intention, the obedience, is what matters. (To Rhona Bodle, 11 November 1949, p. 994)
More related comments are to be found in The Collected Letters of C. S. Lewis, Vol. III: Narnia, Cambridge, and Joy 1950-1963, edited by Walter Hooper, HarperSanFrancisco, 2007:

[D]on’t expect . . . that when you are confirmed, or when you make your first Communion, you will have all the feelings you would like to have. You may, of course: but also you may not. But don’t worry if you don’t get them. They aren’t what matter. The things that are happening to you are quite real things whether you feel as you would wish or not, just as a meal will do a hungry person good even if he has a cold in the head which will rather spoil the taste. Our Lord will give us right feelings if He wishes — and then we must say Thank you. If He doesn’t, then we must say to ourselves (and Him) that He knows best. . . .

For years, after I had become a regular communicant I can’t tell you how dull my feelings were and how my attention wandered at the most important moments. It is only in the last year or two that things have begun to come right — which just shows how important it is to keep on doing what you are told. (To Sarah Neylan, 4 March 1949, p. 1587)

*
It is quite right that you should feel that ‘something terrific’ has happened to you (it has) and be all ‘glowy’. Accept these sensations as birthday cards from God, but . . . it is not the sensations that are the real thing. The real thing is the gift of the Holy Spirit which can’t usually be — perhaps not ever — experienced as a sensation or emotion. . . . It will be there when you can’t feel it. May even be most operative when you can feel it least. (To Genia Goelz, 15 May 1952, p. 191)
Related Reading:
*
*

C. S. Lewis’ Views on Christian Unity & Ecumenism [6-16-03]

*

Contraception: Chesterton, C. S. Lewis, & Teddy Roosevelt [2-21-04]

C. S. Lewis’ Childhood in Belfast & Contra-Catholicism (Biographers and/or Friends Kreeft, Pearce, Derrick, and Possibly Tolkien Think This is Why Lewis Never Became a Catholic) [6-26-12]

Why Didn’t C. S. Lewis Become a Catholic? [8-29-14]

Dialogue on Why C. S. Lewis Didn’t “Pope” [9-1-15]

C. S. Lewis vs. St. Paul on Future Binding Church Authority [National Catholic Register, 1-22-17]

Why C. S. Lewis Never Became a Catholic [National Catholic Register, 3-5-17]

C. S. Lewis on Inevitable Development of Doctrine [2-17-19]

*
*
*
***
Unfortunately, Money Trees Do Not ExistIf you have been aided in any way by my work, or think it is valuable and worthwhile, please strongly consider financially supporting it (even $10 / month — a mere 33 cents a day — would be very helpful). I have been a full-time Catholic apologist since Dec. 2001, and have been writing Christian apologetics since 1981 (see my Resume). My work has been proven (by God’s grace alone) to be fruitful, in terms of changing lives (see the tangible evidences from unsolicited “testimonies”). I have to pay my bills like all of you: and have a (homeschooling) wife and three children still at home to provide for, and a mortgage to pay.

*

My book royalties from three bestsellers in the field (published in 2003-2007) have been decreasing, as has my overall income, making it increasingly difficult to make ends meet.  I provide over 2500 free articles here, for the purpose of your edification and education, and have written 50 books. It’ll literally be a struggle to survive financially until Dec. 2020, when both my wife and I will start receiving Social Security. If you cannot contribute, I ask for your prayers. Thanks! See my information on how to donate (including 100% tax-deductible donations). It’s very simple to contribute to my apostolate via PayPal, if a tax deduction is not needed (my “business name” there is called “Catholic Used Book Service,” from my old bookselling days 17 or so years ago). May God abundantly bless you.

***
Photo credit: The Seven Sacraments: Confirmation (1645), by Nicolas Poussin (1594-1665) [public domain / Wikimedia Commons]
*
***
2019-11-01T12:38:53-04:00

The following excerpts are from: The Collected Letters of C. S. Lewis, Vol. II: Books, Broadcasts, and the War, 1931-1949, edited by Walter Hooper, HarperSanFrancisco, 2004:
[H]is [Charles Williams’] death has made my faith ten times stronger than it was a week ago. And I find all that talk about ‘feeling he is closer to us than before’ isn’t just talk. It’s just what it does feel like — I can’t put it into words. (To Mary Neylan, 20 May 1945, p. 652)
*
My friendship is not ended. . . . I believe in the next life ten times more strongly than I did. At moments it seems almost tangible. . . . A month ago I would have called this silly sentiment. Now I know better. He [Charles Williams] seems, in some indefinable way, to be all around us now. I do not doubt he is doing and will do for us all sorts of things he could not have done while in the body. (To Florence [Michal] Williams, 22 May 1945, pp. 653-654)
*
It has made the next world much more real and palpable. We all feel the same. . . . I have often heard of widows and bereaved mothers who ‘felt that “he” was now nearer to them than while in the body’ and always thought it a sentimental hyperbole. I know better now. (To Sister Penelope, 28 May 1945, p. 656)
*
It has increased enormously one’s faith in the next life and I can’t help feeling him [Charles Williams] all over the place. (To Anne Ridler, 3 June 1945, p. 659)
More related comments are to be found in The Collected Letters of C. S. Lewis, Vol. III: Narnia, Cambridge, and Joy 1950-1963, edited by Walter Hooper, HarperSanFrancisco, 2007:
Mr Every (quite legitimately) gives the word invocation a wider sense than I. The question then becomes how far we can infer propriety of devotion from propriety of invocation? I accept the authority of the Benedicite for the propriety of invoking (in Mr Every’s sense) saints. . . .
*
If there is one kind of devotion to created beings which is pleasing and another which is displeasing to God, when is the Church, as a Church, going to instruct us in the distinction? . . .
*
Most of us laymen, I think, have no parti pris [‘preconception’] in the matter. We desire to believe as the Church believes. (To the Editor of the Church Times, 15 July 1949)
*
I hope Mr Every has not misunderstood me. There is, I believe, a prima facie case for regarding the devotions to saints in the Church of England as a controversial question [cites Anglicans Jewel, Laud, and Taylor] . . . I merely claim that the controversy exists. I share Mr Every’s wish that it should cease. But there are two ways in which a controversy can cease: by being settled, or by gradual and imperceptible change of custom. I do not want any controversy to cease in the second sense. (To the Editor of the Church Times, 5 August 1949)
But Hail Marys raise a doctrinal question: whether it is lawful to address devotions to any creature, however holy. My own view would be that a salute to any saint (or angel) cannot in itself be wrong any more than taking off one’s hat to a friend: but that there is always some danger lest such practices start one on the road to a state (sometimes fond in R.C.’s) where the B.V.M. is treated really as a deity and even becomes the centre of the religion. I therefore think that such salutes are better avoided. (To Mary Van Deusen, 26 June 1952, p. 209)

Additionally, Lewis reported “an instantaneous, unanswerable impression” of his deceased wife Joy’s presence. Some years earlier, he had felt “the ubiquitous presence” of his dead friend and fellow Christian writer, Charles Williams. Here is how Lewis described his experience. It makes for extremely fascinating reading:

It’s the quality of last night’s experience – not what it proves but what it was – that makes it worth putting down. It was quite incredibly unemotional. Just the impression of her mind momentarily facing my own. Mind, not “soul” as we tend to think of soul. Certainly the reverse of what is called “soulful.” Not at all like a rapturous reunion of lovers. Much more like getting a telephone call or a wire from her about some practical arrangement. Not that there was any “message” – just intelligence and attention. No sense of joy or sorrow. No love even, in our ordinary sense. No un-love. I had never in any mood imagined the dead as being so – well, so business-like. Yet there was an extreme and cheerful intimacy. An intimacy that had not passed through the senses or the emotions at all.

. . . A Greek philosopher wouldn’t have been surprised at an experience like mine. He would have expected that if anything of us remained after death it would be just that. Up to now this always seemed to me a most arid and chilling idea. The absence of emotion repelled me. But in this contact (whether real or apparent) it didn’t do anything of the sort. One didn’t need emotion. The intimacy was complete – sharply bracing and restorative too – without it.

. . . Once very near the end I said, “If you can – if it is allowed – come to me when I too am on my death bed.” “Allowed!” she said. “Heaven would have a job to hold me; and as for Hell, I’d break it into bits.” She knew she was speaking a kind of mythological language, with even an element of comedy in it. There was a twinkle as well as a tear in her eye. But there was no myth and no joke about the will, deeper than any feeling, that flashed through her. (A Grief Observed, Toronto: Bantam Books edition, 1961, 85-88)

***
Related Reading:

C. S. Lewis’ Views on Christian Unity & Ecumenism [6-16-03]

Contraception: Chesterton, C. S. Lewis, & Teddy Roosevelt [2-21-04]

C. S. Lewis’ Childhood in Belfast & Contra-Catholicism (Biographers and/or Friends Kreeft, Pearce, Derrick, and Possibly Tolkien Think This is Why Lewis Never Became a Catholic) [6-26-12]

Why Didn’t C. S. Lewis Become a Catholic? [8-29-14]

Dialogue on Why C. S. Lewis Didn’t “Pope” [9-1-15]

C. S. Lewis vs. St. Paul on Future Binding Church Authority [National Catholic Register, 1-22-17]

Why C. S. Lewis Never Became a Catholic [National Catholic Register, 3-5-17]

C. S. Lewis on Inevitable Development of Doctrine [2-17-19]

*
*
*
***
Unfortunately, Money Trees Do Not Exist: If you have been aided in any way by my work, or think it is valuable and worthwhile, please strongly consider financially supporting it (even $10 / month — a mere 33 cents a day — would be very helpful). I have been a full-time Catholic apologist since Dec. 2001, and have been writing Christian apologetics since 1981 (see my Resume). My work has been proven (by God’s grace alone) to be fruitful, in terms of changing lives (see the tangible evidences from unsolicited “testimonies”). I have to pay my bills like all of you: and have a (homeschooling) wife and three children still at home to provide for, and a mortgage to pay.

*

My book royalties from three bestsellers in the field (published in 2003-2007) have been decreasing, as has my overall income, making it increasingly difficult to make ends meet.  I provide over 2500 free articles here, for the purpose of your edification and education, and have written 50 books. It’ll literally be a struggle to survive financially until Dec. 2020, when both my wife and I will start receiving Social Security. If you cannot contribute, I ask for your prayers. Thanks! See my information on how to donate (including 100% tax-deductible donations). It’s very simple to contribute to my apostolate via PayPal, if a tax deduction is not needed (my “business name” there is called “Catholic Used Book Service,” from my old bookselling days 17 or so years ago). May God abundantly bless you.

***
Photo credit: © José Luiz Bernardes Ribeiro (9-15-16: baptistry: Padua) [Wikimedia Commons /  Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike 4.0 International license]
*
***
2019-11-01T12:35:51-04:00

In his fictional book, The Great Divorce (New York: Macmillan, 1946, 39), Lewis portrays the damned (including some near-damned, as it were) making a trip to the outskirts of heaven. One of the spirits is told: “You have been in Hell; though if you don’t go back you may call it Purgatory.” This theme was expanded later in the book (p. 67):

“If they leave that grey town behind it will not have been Hell. To any that leaves it, it is Purgatory. And perhaps ye had better not call this country Heaven. Not Deep Heaven, ye understand.” (Here he smiled at me). “Ye can call it the Valley of the Shadow of Life. And yet to those who stay here it will have been Heaven from the first. And ye can call those sad streets in the town yonder the Valley of the Shadow of Death: but to those who remain there they will have been Hell even from the beginning.”

Here is Lewis’ most explicit, extended treatment of the topic of purgatory, followed by an interesting short exposition from his famous semi-catechetical work, Mere Christianity:

Of course I pray for the dead. The action is so spontaneous, so all but inevitable, that only the most compulsive theological case against it would deter me. And I hardly know how the rest of my prayers would survive if those for the dead were forbidden. At our age the majority of those we love best are dead. What sort of intercourse with God could I have if what I love best were unmentionable to Him? . . .

I believe in purgatory. Mind you, the Reformers had good reasons for throwing doubt on “the Romish doctrine concerning Purgatory” as that Romish doctrine had then become. . . .

The right view returns magnificently in Newman’s Dream. [1] There, if I remember it rightly, the saved soul, at the very foot of the throne, begs to be taken away and cleansed. It cannot bear for a moment longer “With its darkness to affront that light.” Religion has reclaimed Purgatory.

Our souls demand Purgatory, don’t they? Would it not break the heart if God said to us, “It is true, my son, that your breath smells and your rags drip with mud and slime, but we are charitable here and no one will upbraid you with these things, nor draw away from you. Enter into the joy”? Should we not reply, “With submission, sir, and if there is no objection, I’d rather be cleaned first.” “It may hurt, you know” — “Even so, sir.”

I assume that the process of purification will normally involve suffering. Partly from tradition; partly because most real good that has been done me in this life has involved it. . . .

My favourite image on this matter comes from the dentist’s chair. I hope that when the tooth of life is drawn and I am “coming round,” a voice will say, “Rinse your mouth out with this.” This will be Purgatory. The rinsing may take longer than I can now imagine. The taste of this may be more fiery and astringent than my present sensibility could endure. (Letters to Malcolm: Chiefly on Prayer, New York: Harcourt Brace Jovanovich, 1964, 107-109)

“Make no mistake,” He says, “if you let me, I will make you perfect. The moment you put yourself in My hands, that is what you are in for. Nothing less, or other, than that. You have free will, and if you choose, you can push Me away. But if you do not push Me away, understand that I am going to see this job through. Whatever suffering it may cost you in your earthly life, whatever inconceivable purification it may cost you after death, whatever it costs Me, I will never rest, nor let you rest, until you are literally perfect — until My Father can say without reservation that He is well pleased with you, as He said He was well pleased with me. This I can do and will do. But I will not do anything less.” (Mere Christianity, New York: Macmillan, 1960, 172)

Lewis wrote about purgatory after the death of his wife, Joy:

How do I know that all her anguish is past? I never believed before — I thought it immensely improbable — that the faithfulest soul could leap straight into perfection and peace the moment death has rattled in the throat. It would be wishful thinking with a vengeance to take up that belief now . . . I know there are not only tears to be dried but stains to be scoured. . . .

But suppose that what you are up against is a surgeon whose intentions are wholly good. The kinder and more conscientious he is, the more inexorably he will go on cutting. If he yielded to your entreaties, if he stopped before the operation was complete, all the pain up to that point would have been useless. But is it credible that such extremities of torture should be necessary for us? Well, take your choice. The tortures occur. If they are unnecessary, then there is no God or a bad one. If there is a good God, then these tortures are necessary. For no even moderately good Being could possibly inflict or permit them if they weren’t.

Either way, we’re for it.

What do people mean when they say, “I am not afraid of God because I know He is good?” Have they never even been to a dentist? (A Grief Observed, New York: Bantam, 1976, 48-51)

In a letter to Sister Penelope, C.S.M.V., written on 17 September 1963, only nine weeks or so before his death, Lewis stated:

If you die first, and if “prison visiting” is allowed, come down and look me up in Purgatory. (W. H. Lewis, editor, Letters of C. S. Lewis, New York: Harcourt Brace Jovanovich, 1966 [revised and enlarged Harvest edition edited by Walter Hooper, 1993], 509)

The following excerpts are from: The Collected Letters of C. S. Lewis, Vol. II: Books, Broadcasts, and the War, 1931-1949, edited by Walter Hooper, HarperSanFrancisco, 2004:
Of course we should pray for the dead as I’m sure they do for us. (Letter to Mrs Percival Wiseman, 20 March 1944, p. 608)
*
[Y]ou, and she, will be in my prayers. (Letter to Arthur Greeves, 20 January 1949, p. 908; referring to his recently deceased mother)
*
I have never seen any more difficulty about praying for the dead than for the living, and it is quite clear that God wishes us to do that. (Letter to Rhona Bodle, 26 October 1949, p. 989)
More related comments are to be found in The Collected Letters of C. S. Lewis, Vol. III: Narnia, Cambridge, and Joy 1950-1963, edited by Walter Hooper, HarperSanFrancisco, 2007:
Purgatory: a process by which the work of redemption continues, and first perhaps begins to be noticeable after death. (Letter to Mrs Johnson, 8 November 1952, p. 245)
*
[S]urely there is one person you very much want to pray for: your husband himself. . . . it seems to me quite possible that you can now help more than while he was alive. . . . Your present prayers for your husband are still part of the married life. (Letter to Phyllis Elinor Sandeman, 22 December 1953, pp. 392-393)
*
The doctrine of purgation after death is one of many held by the Roman Church which I consider to be intrinsically probable but which, since it is not clearly stated in Scripture, nor included in the early creeds, I do not think they have any warrant for enforcing. (Letter to Mr Allcock, 24 March 1955, pp. 587-588)
*
[Dave: I beg to respectfully differ as to whether it is “clearly stated in Scripture”; see:

Luther: Purgatory “Quite Plain” in 2 Maccabees [3-5-09]

50 Bible Passages on Purgatory & Analogous Processes [2009]

Raising of Tabitha: Proof of Purgatory (Tony Gerring) (see also in-depth Facebook discussion) [3-20-15]

50 Biblical Indications That Purgatory is Real [National Catholic Register, 10-24-16]

25 Descriptive and Clear Bible Passages About Purgatory [National Catholic Register, 5-7-17] ]

My wife died in July. I should be grateful if you would sometimes mention both her and me in your prayers. (Letter to Father Quinlan, 16 September 1960, p. 1185)

Thanks for your sympathy. I hope we both have your prayers (or don’t you pray for the dead?). (Letter to Alastair Fowler, 24 October 1960, p. 1201)

Thank you very much for your prayers for my wife. (Letter to Robin Anstey, 2 November 1960, p. 1206)

I know that you pour forth your prayers both for my dearly-longed-for wife and also for me . . . (Letter to Don Luigi Pedrollo, 8 April 1961, p. 1253)

Pray for us both. (Letter to Dom Bede Griffiths, 3 December 1961, p. 1300)

I’ve found the passage — 1 Cor. 15:20. Also 1 Pet 3:19-20, bears indirectly on the subject. It implies that something can be done for the dead. If so, why should we not pray for them? (Letter to Mary Van Deusen, 28 December 1961, p. 1307)

[actually the first passage Lewis refers to appears to be the following:

1 Corinthians 15:29 (RSV)  Otherwise, what do people mean by being baptized on behalf of the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized on their behalf?

1 Peter 3:19-20 . . . he went and preached to the spirits in prison, [20] who formerly did not obey, when God’s patience waited in the days of Noah, during the building of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through water. ]

* * * * *

[1] Here is the passage from St. John Henry Cardinal Newman’s poem The Dream of Gerontius (1865) that Lewis refers to (from “§ 4. Soul”):

Angel [partial stanza]

So is it now with thee, who hast not lost
Thy hand or foot, but all which made up man.
So will it be, until the joyous day
Of resurrection, when thou wilt regain
All thou hast lost, new-made and glorified.
How, even now, the consummated Saints
See God in heaven, I may not explicate;
Meanwhile, let it suffice thee to possess
Such means of converse as are granted thee,
Though, till that Beatific Vision, thou art blind;
For e’en thy purgatory, which comes like fire,
Is fire without its light.

Soul

His will be done!
I am not worthy e’er to see again
The face of day; far less His countenance,
Who is the very sun. Natheless in life,
When I looked forward to my purgatory,
It ever was my solace to believe,
That, ere I plunged amid the avenging flame,
I had one sight of Him to strengthen me.

Angel

Nor rash nor vain is that presentiment;
Yes,—for one moment thou shalt see thy Lord.
Thus will it be: what time thou art arraign’d
Before the dread tribunal, and thy lot
Is cast for ever, should it be to sit
On His right hand among His pure elect,
Then sight, or that which to the soul is sight,
As by a lightning-flash, will come to thee,
And thou shalt see, amid the dark profound,
Whom thy soul loveth, and would fain approach,—
One moment; but thou knowest not, my child,
What thou dost ask: that sight of the Most Fair
Will gladden thee, but it will pierce thee too.

Soul

Thou speakest darkly, Angel; and an awe
Falls on me, and a fear lest I be rash.

Angel

There was a mortal, who is now above
In the mid glory: he, when near to die,
Was given communion with the Crucified,—
Such, that the Master’s very wounds were stamp’d
Upon his flesh; and, from the agony
Which thrill’d through body and soul in that embrace,
Learn that the flame of the Everlasting Love
Doth burn ere it transform …

***

Related Reading:

C. S. Lewis’ Views on Christian Unity & Ecumenism [6-16-03]Contraception: Chesterton, C. S. Lewis, & Teddy Roosevelt [2-21-04]

C. S. Lewis’ Childhood in Belfast & Contra-Catholicism (Biographers and/or Friends Kreeft, Pearce, Derrick, and Possibly Tolkien Think This is Why Lewis Never Became a Catholic) [6-26-12]

Why Didn’t C. S. Lewis Become a Catholic? [8-29-14]

Dialogue on Why C. S. Lewis Didn’t “Pope” [9-1-15]

C. S. Lewis vs. St. Paul on Future Binding Church Authority [National Catholic Register, 1-22-17]

Why C. S. Lewis Never Became a Catholic [National Catholic Register, 3-5-17]

C. S. Lewis on Inevitable Development of Doctrine [2-17-19]

*
*
*
*
*
*

***

Unfortunately, Money Trees Do Not ExistIf you have been aided in any way by my work, or think it is valuable and worthwhile, please strongly consider financially supporting it (even $10 / month — a mere 33 cents a day — would be very helpful). I have been a full-time Catholic apologist since Dec. 2001, and have been writing Christian apologetics since 1981 (see my Resume). My work has been proven (by God’s grace alone) to be fruitful, in terms of changing lives (see the tangible evidences from unsolicited “testimonies”). I have to pay my bills like all of you: and have a (homeschooling) wife and three children still at home to provide for, and a mortgage to pay.

My book royalties from three bestsellers in the field (published in 2003-2007) have been decreasing, as has my overall income, making it increasingly difficult to make ends meet.  I provide over 2500 free articles here, for the purpose of your edification and education, and have written 50 books. It’ll literally be a struggle to survive financially until Dec. 2020, when both my wife and I will start receiving Social Security. If you cannot contribute, I ask for your prayers. Thanks! See my information on how to donate (including 100% tax-deductible donations). It’s very simple to contribute to my apostolate via PayPal, if a tax deduction is not needed (my “business name” there is called “Catholic Used Book Service,” from my old bookselling days 17 or so years ago). May God abundantly bless you.

***

(originally 6-22-10; many more selections and links to my own papers on purgatory were added on 10-8-19)

Photo credit: Praying Hands, by Albrecht Dürer (1508) [public domain / Wikimedia Commons]

***

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