2020-07-10T15:50:09-04:00

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St. John Henry Cardinal Newman fully accepted (indeed, was pleased with) the decree on papal infallibility, defined at Vatican I (lest anyone would try to deny this, as many Protestants erroneously attempt to do). See my paper: John Henry Newman on Papal Infallibility Prior to 1870 (Classic Anti-Catholic Lies: George Salmon, James White, David T. King et al) [8-11-11].

 

There seems to be a lot of misconceptions and confusion about Ultramontanism. That strain of thought did indeed seem to be in a numerical majority at Vatican I (if we are talking about counting heads of bishops). At any rate, it was a powerful influence. The actual dogmatic decree on papal infallibility, however, was not Ultramontane at all. It was actually a defeat of Ultramontanism, and Newman himself stated as much. Despite this fact, the nature of the decree is often wrongly conflated to represent a manifestation of that which it actually opposed. Newman biographer Ian Ker describes the true relationship of Ultramontanism, the First Vatican Council, and Newman’s thought (blue emphasis added):

[I]n a letter of March 1870, . . . he pointed out that however infallible the Pope might turn out to be, his pronouncements would still require interpretation. The same was true of a Council’s definitions, which – just as ‘lawyers explain acts of Parliament’ – had to be explained by theologians. Obvious as the fact might be, the conclusion to be drawn from it had serious consequences for the fantasies of extreme Ultramontanism. ‘Hence, I have never been able to see myself that the ultimate decision rests with any but the general Catholic intelligence’ . . . (Later, in the Letter to the Duke of Norfolkhe was careful to emphasize that he simply meant that the whole Church ratified a definition as ‘authentic’, not that the ‘subsequent reception’ actually entered into the ‘necessary conditions’ of a dogmatic decision.) In the same private letter he also noted that abstract definitions could not ‘determine particular fact’: the doctrine, for example, that there was no salvation outside the Church did not apply to people in ‘invincible ignorance’ . . .

He continued to insist after the definition that ‘the voice of the Schola Theologorum, of the whole Church diffusive’ would ‘in time make itself heard’, and that ‘Catholic instincts and ideas’ would eventually ‘assimilate and harmonize’ it into the wider context of Catholic belief . . .

In defining doctrines, Popes and Councils enjoyed an ‘active infallibility’, but more was involved in the infallibility of the Church than that, since a ‘passive infallibility’ belonged to the whole Catholic people, who had to determine the force and meaning of these doctrinal definitions . . . (Ian Ker, John Henry Newman: A Biography, Oxford University Press, 1988, 681-682, citing Difficulties of Anglicans, II, 372; further references: The Letters and Diaries of John Henry Newman [LD], edited by Charles Stephen Dessain [London: 1961-1972], XXV, 71, 284, 447; XXVII, 338)

In his diary, Newman wrote in 1870, after the definition was passed (which he had opposed, as an “inopportunist”) that all Catholic theologians had always held:

. . . that what the Pope said ex cathedra, was true when the Bishops had received it – what has been passed, is to the effect that what he determines ex cathedra is true independently of the reception by the Bishops – but nothing has been passed as to what is meant by ‘ex cathedra’ – and this falls back to the Bishops and the Church to determine quite as much as before. Really therefore nothing has been passed of consequence. Again, the degree is linked to ‘faith and morals’ – whereas what the Ultra party wished to pass was political principles. (LD, XXV, 219, in Ker, ibid., 658; blue emphasis added)

Biographer Ian Ker continues:

Closer study of the definition showed that the Council had only taught the moderate view of infallibility which Ryder, for example, had maintained against Ward . . .

There was no doubting the Ultramontane party was deeply disappointed that the definition could not be used, in particular, to enforce rigorously the Syllabus of Errors . . .

As usual, too, Newman refused to ignore what was true and acceptable in a development which he deplored for other reasons. Disgust with Ultramontame excesses should not be allowed to obscure the original, valid, Ultramontanism of, for example, Montalembert, who had opposed Gallicanism as allowing the state to interfere with the spiritual independence of the Church. The freedom of the local Church from political domination depended on Rome’s central authority.

. . . He was sure that it was divine intervention which had prevented the extreme Ultramontanes, including the Pope, from getting through a much stronger definition. It was a pity that Dollinger and others persisted in exaggerating what actually had been defined . . .

The Ultramontanes had not achieved all that they wanted at the Council.

[Newman thought] It was simply playing into the hands of the extremists to exaggerate the terms of the definition, which in fact had been a ‘defeat’ for the Ultramontanes. (Ker, ibid., 658-660, 662, 665; for the last statement, see LD, XXV, 438)

This hardly represents a scenario whereby Pastor Aeternus is somehow “Ultramontane” whereas similar proclamations of Vatican II are not, and are supposedly instances of (you guessed it) what some might call “rectification” of earlier dogmatic statements. In fact, Vatican II is perfectly harmonious and not contrary to Vatican I in this regard (or any other).

It merely clarifies what came earlier, as we should fully expect, and as Newman himself would both expect and predict. It wouldn’t have surprised him in the least. Nor should it surprise anyone else who knows the history of doctrine in this regard. This is how it works. This is how the Mind of the Church operates. Ian Ker describes how Newman would have likely viewed the developments of Vatican II. Newman practically prophesied Vatican II:

In the event, however, of ‘a false interpretation’ of the infallibility definition, then ‘another Leo will be given us for the occasion’. The reference is to Pope St. Leo’s Council of Chalcedon, which, ‘without of course touching the definition’ of the preceding Council of Ephesus, ‘trimmed the balance of doctrine by completing it’. The warning is an exact prophecy of the theology of ‘creeping infallibility’ that came in the wake of the First Vatican Council, and of the Second Vatican Council, which Pope John XXIII convoked nearly a hundred years later. (Ker, ibid., 683-684, citing Difficulties of Anglicans, II, 307)

Ker points out how Newman’s orthodox Catholic position disagreed with the excesses of the Old Catholic “left” (who wanted to deny papal infallibility) and the Ultramontanist “right” (who wanted it to be far broader than was decided by the Council):

As regards the relation between history and theology, Newman is unequivocal in his criticism of Dollinger and his followers . . . ‘I think them utterly wrong in what they have done and are doing; and, moreover, I agree as little in their view of history as in their acts.’ It is not a matter of questioning the accuracy of their historical knowledge, but ‘their use of the facts they report’ and ‘that special stand-point from which they view the relations existing between the records of History and the communications of Popes and Councils’. Newman sums up the essence of the problem: ‘They seem to me to expect from History more than History can furnish.’ The opposite was true of the Ultramontanes, who simply found history an embarrassing inconvenience. . . .

Newman’s carefully nuanced judgement mocks both the intransigence of Pio Nono and the inconsistency of a politician like Gladstone. (Ker, ibid., 684-685, citing Difficulties of Anglicans, II, 309, 311-312)

 

Vatican I and Vatican II had different emphases, of course, but “exclusively” is too exaggerated of a description. This is merely one of the frequent distressing Protestant false dichotomies, when discussing the Catholic Church. For Pastor Aeternus also states:

We condemn and reprobate the opinions of those who hold that the communication between the supreme Head and the pastors and their flocks can lawfully be impeded . . . (Chapter III)

Also:

[T]he Roman Pontiffs, according to the exigencies of times and circumstances, sometimes assembling ecumenical councils, or asking for the mind of the Church scattered throughout the world, sometimes by particular synods, sometimes using other helps which divine Providence supplied, defined as to be held those things which with the help of God they had recognized as conformable with the sacred Scriptures and Apostolic traditions. For the Holy Spirit was not promised to the successors of Peter, that by His revelation they might make known new doctrine, but that by His assistance they might inviolably keep and faithfully expound the revelation or deposit of faith delivered through the Apostles.

Therefore, the notion of collegiality and interaction between popes and lessers in the Church was already present, and was nothing new. It had been there all along. But obviously, in a decree, the purpose of which is to define the exact nature of the infallibility of the pope, the infallibility of the pope will be the main focus! That much is clear, but in any event, Vatican II simply developed what came before.

Pope Pius IX, an Ultramontanist himself, nevertheless relied upon extensive surveys of the bishops and priests and religious of the world before defining the Immaculate Conception of Mary as dogma in 1854, 16 years before Vatican I.

That is hardly “functioning apart” from the faithful. The same thing occurred after the definition, in 1950, when Pope Pius XII did the same thing prior to declaring as irreformable dogma, Mary’s Assumption. So the popes and the Church have understood this. It happened before 1870, and it happened before 1965, when Vatican II ended. But at no time was the pope “bound to the faithful,” if by that is meant the ability of the faithful to overturn infallible papal decrees.

 

It’s true that additional insights have been gained over a nearly hundred-year span of time. But the notions were already present in Vatican I. The development proceeded exactly as Cardinal Newman would have envisioned it. But the historical continuity and utter consistency of Vatican I and Vatican II is plainly evident in Lumen Gentium itself.

For example, in an explicit discussion of collegiality (Chapter III, section 22), complete with many ancient references, the Council casually reasserts papal primacy, headship, and infallibility. There is no possibility of the sensus fidelium, or even united bishops (as in heretical conciliarism) overturning a truly infallible papal decree:

The college or body of bishops has for all that no authority unless united with the Roman Pontiff . . . For the Roman Pontiff . . . has full, supreme and universal power over the whole Church, a power which he can always exercise unhindered . . . Together with their head, the Supreme Pontiff, and never apart from him, they have supreme and full authority over the universal Church; but this power cannot be exercised without the agreement of the Roman Pontiff.

Far from watering down papal primacy, Vatican II asserts it with far more force than even Vatican I did, over and over, in many different ways. No one can have any doubt as to relative power of bishops and the pope. The pope can act unilaterally and in an irreformable fashion (after consulting with bishops). The bishops cannot do so without the pope. Therefore, the pope’s authority is supreme and final in the Church. Nothing has changed.

This is Vatican I teaching. And it is ancient practice, merely developed through the centuries. Papal supremacy and infallibility is nothing new; neither is collegiality and the sensus fidelium and Mind of the Church. But the latter elements received a fresh “hearing” and explication at Vatican II, which is an absolutely delightful turn of events, in my opinion, and which creates more common ground with other Christians.

I profoundly disagree again. No “correction” occurred at Vatican II, unless it is regarded as strictly referring to emphasis (insofar as one emphasis chosen over another may be regarded as a “correction” — it seems to me much more a matter of prudence and timing rather than doctrine). Doctrine was not rectified, but emphases were, and that is a common occurrence throughout Church history; not exclusive to Vatican II at all.

Secondly, the mature developmental principles of Newman were those of his Essay on Development, written as an Anglican, but almost entirely consistent with his later Catholic beliefs. Nothing in either Vatican I or Vatican II contradicts those principles. Therefore, one might discuss Newman’s ideas as those of his Anglican period; yet in this instance they do not differ from his Catholic period (at least if we are talking about his classic 1845 expression of his theory of doctrinal development).

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(originally 12-10-05)

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2020-05-11T10:53:15-04:00

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Words of Bishop “Dr.” [???] James White will be in blue.

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In an article on his blog, dated 10-31-09 [linked below], he attacked Dr. Francis Beckwith:
 
We get the distinct feeling that despite spending 90 days doing the study that led him back to Rome, Dr. Beckwith somehow missed the best works from the non-Roman Catholic viewpoint. I see no reason to believe he worked through Chemnitz or Whittaker [sic] or Goode or Salmon. It seems most of his reading was in secondary, pro-Roman sources, or at least fuzzy ecumenical ones.
 
 
One will scan his notes in vain for any reference to any classical works on, say, sola scriptura, such as William Whitaker’s late 16th century classic, Disputations on Holy Scripture, or William Goode’s mid 19th century work, Divine Rule of Faith and Practice.
 
And again, about someone else on 9-3-07:
 
Of course, these issues have been addressed many times, so I wonder if this writer has, in fact, read Goode or Whitaker . . .?
 
 
Have you listened to both sides? That is, have you done more than read Rome Sweet Home and listen to a few emotion-tugging conversion stories? Have you actually taken the time to find sound, serious responses to Rome’s claims, those offered by writers ever since the Reformation, such as Goode, Whitaker, Salmon, and modern writers?
 
I see. Now, Dr. Beckwith is a professional philosopher (i.e. — very unlike Mr. White — , a professor, with a real doctorate, not a fake one bought with cereal boxtops: like White’s). That’s his life’s work. I doubt that he would even have a tenth of the time that full-time Christian apologists like myself and Bishop White have, to deal that fully in primary anti-Catholic or contra-Catholic Protestant sources.
 
I do have that time, and lo and behold, when I wrote one of my three books on sola Scriptura (the 310-page Pillars of Sola Scriptura: Replies to Whitaker, Goode, & Biblical “Proofs” for “Bible Alone” from 2012), it was a point-by-point refutation of the two men whom White and many other Protestants consider the best historic defenders of the false doctrine of sola Scriptura (absolutely central to Protestant thinking).
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I devoted pages 13-186 to the 1588 work, Disputation on Holy Scripture: Against the Papists, Especially Bellarmine and Stapleton, by the Calvinist Anglican William Whitaker (1548-1595). And I devoted pages 187-236 to the 1853 tome, The Divine Rule of Faith and Practice, by the evangelical Anglican William Goode (1801-1868).
 
How’s that for “work[ing] through” the “best works from the non-Roman Catholic viewpoint”? This is what White constantly demands, yet when a Catholic actually does it, it’s crickets on his end: no response whatever from him or any other Protestant apologist.
 
He also mentions Martin Chemnitz (1522-1586), the Lutheran theologian, as one of these “best” sources. I haven’t written a book about him, but I’ve read his main polemical book and have done three lengthy examinations of his highly flawed arguments regarding the Church fathers and their supposed quasi-Lutheran leanings:
 
Moreover, I read George Salmon’s book against infallibility back in 1990 when I was fighting against the Catholic Church (infallibility was my biggest objection), and I have addressed it twice as a Catholic:
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It contains atrocious and rather easily refuted argumentation, too. White has utterly ignored all of that material, too. I not only was familiar with Salmon’s polemics; I heavily utilized it when I was fighting against the Catholic Church an particularly infallibility in 1990. In a portion of my longest (75-page) conversion story I wrote (links added presently):

I quickly found some of the leading polemics against Catholic infallibility, such as the Irish Anglican anti-Catholic George Salmon (1819-1904), author of The Infallibility of the Church (1888) and Johann Joseph Ignaz von Döllinger (1799-1890), the German historian who rejected the ex cathedra declaration of papal infallibility and formed the Old Catholic schismatic group. His books, Letters of Quirinus and Letters of Janus, were written during the First Vatican Council in 1870.

Salmon’s work has been refuted decisively twice, by B.C. Butler, in his The Church and Infallibility: A Reply to the Abridged “Salmon” (New York, Sheed & Ward, 1954), and also in a series of articles in The Irish Ecclesiastical Record, in 1901 and 1902 [see p. 193 ff., March 1901] (probably able to be found online).

Yet Protestant apologists Norman Geisler and Ralph MacKenzie still claimed in 1995, in a major critique of Catholicism, Roman Catholics and Evangelicals: Agreements and Differences (Grand Rapids, Michigan: Baker Books, p. 206; cf. p. 459) that Salmon’s book has “never really been answered by the Catholic Church” and is the “classic refutation of papal infallibility.”

Prominent professional anti-Catholic James White, in the same year, claimed that I must have never been familiar with the best Protestant arguments against infallibility and Catholicism in general — hence my eventual conversion on flimsy grounds.

The truth was quite otherwise: the above works are the cream of the crop of this particular line of thought, as evidenced by Geisler and MacKenzie’s citation of both Salmon and Küng as “witnesses” for their case (ibid., pp. 206-207). Church historian Döllinger’s heretical opinions are also often utilized by Eastern Orthodox apologists as arguments against papal infallibility.

Using these severely biased, untrustworthy sources, I found the typical arguments used: for example, Pope Honorius, who supposedly was a heretic. I produced two long papers containing difficult “problems” of Catholic history and alleged contradictions and so forth (just as atheists love to do with the Bible), to “torment” my Catholic friends at the group discussions.

George Salmon revealed in his book his profound ignorance, not only concerning papal infallibility, but also with regard to even the basics of the development of doctrine:

Romish advocates . . . are now content to exchange tradition, which their predecessors had made the basis of their system, for this new foundation of development . . . The theory of development is, in short, an attempt to enable men, beaten off the platform of history, to hang on to it by the eyelids . . . The old theory was that the teaching of the Church had never varied. (The Infallibility of the Church, Grand Rapids, Michigan: Baker Book House [originally 1888], pp. 31-33; cf. pp. 35, 39)

Here Salmon is quixotically fighting a straw man of his own making and seeking to sophistically force his readers into the acceptance of a false and altogether logically unnecessary dichotomy. He contended that development of doctrine implies change in the essence of a doctrine and therefore is utterly contrary to the claims of the Church to be the guardian and custodian of an authoritative tradition of never-changing dogma.

But this is emphatically not the Catholic notion, nor that of Cardinal Newman, to whom Salmon was largely responding. Nor is it true that development was a “new” theory introduced by Cardinal Newman into Catholicism, while the “old theory” was otherwise. This is proven by the writing of St. Vincent of Lerins, one of the Church fathers, who died around 450 A. D., in his classic patristic exposition of development, The Notebooks:

Will there, then, be no progress of religion in the Church of Christ? Certainly there is, and the greatest . . . But it is truly progress and not a change of faith. What is meant by progress is that something is brought to an advancement within itself; by change, something is transformed from one thing into another. It is necessary, therefore, that understanding, knowledge and wisdom grow and advance strongly and mightily . . . and this must take place precisely within its own kind, that is, in the same teaching, in the same meaning, and in the same opinion. The progress of religion in souls is like the growth of bodies, which, in the course of years, evolve and develop, but still remain what they were . . . Although in the course of time something evolved from those first seeds and has now expanded under careful cultivation, nothing of the characteristics of the seeds is changed. Granted that appearance, beauty and distinction has been added, still, the same nature of each kind remains. (23:28-30; cited from William A. Jurgens, The Faith of the Early Fathers; Collegeville, Minnesota: The Liturgical Press, 1979, vol. 3, p. 265)

St. Augustine (354-430), the greatest of the Church fathers, whom Protestants also greatly revere, expressed similar sentiments in his City of God (16, 2, 1), and On the 54th Psalm (number 22). The (explicit) concept predated Newman by at least fourteen centuries, Salmon’s claims notwithstanding.

George Salmon thus loses much credibility as any sort of expert on Christian history, papal infallibility, or development, for this and many other reasons, as demonstrated by his Catholic critics. Yet Geisler and MacKenzie, while presenting a fairly accurate picture of Newman’s (and Catholic) development of doctrine, state that Salmon’s book is “a penetrating critique of Newman’s theory” (ibid., p. 459).

It is beyond our purview here to examine the faulty and jaundiced reasoning employed by the above-cited “anti-infallibility” works, and my own ambitious and zealous adoption of them, in my effort to refute the Catholic Church on historical grounds. Suffice it to say that it is largely a matter of misunderstanding or misapplying the true doctrine of infallibility, as defined dogmatically by the First Vatican Council in 1870, or else a conveniently selective and dishonest presentation of historical facts and patristic citations.

I thank James White for the unintended compliment.
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(originally posted on Facebook on 11-11-19; expanded on 5-11-20)

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2020-04-19T12:05:25-04:00

This is a reply to anti-Catholic Protestant polemicist Jason Engwer’s paper, Dave Armstrong and Development of Doctrine, which was in turn a response to my paper, Dialogue on the Nature of Development of Doctrine (Particularly with Regard to the Papacy). Jason’s words will be in blue.
 

TABLE OF CONTENTS

I. Introductory Remarks

II. William Webster and Development

III. Deductive vs. Speculative Developments (the Holy Trinity vs. the Immaculate Conception)

IV. Development and the New Testament Canon (Difficulties for Protestantism)

V. The Development of the Papacy

 


I. Introductory Remarks
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In replying to Dave Armstrong’s article addressed to me, I’m not going to respond to every subject he raised. He said a lot about John [Henry] Newman, George Salmon, James White, etc. that’s either irrelevant to what I was arguing or is insignificant enough that I would prefer not to address it.

If I didn’t think what I wrote was relevant, I wouldn’t have written it. In any event, those remarks stand unrefuted. Mainly I cited these men as a sort of “review of the literature,” to demonstrate how misinformed many Protestant apologists are as to the definitions and historical progression of doctrinal development (and how they don’t seem to recognize the double standards routinely applied, where Protestant developments are fine, but Catholic ones which are operating on the same principle are “excessive”).

I ask the reader, whether he’s Catholic or non-Catholic, to try to think about what he’s reading as objectively as possible. I think that if we approach these things more from a rational and evidential standpoint and less from an emotional and speculative standpoint, we’re more likely to arrive at the truth.

This is well-stated, and I couldn’t agree more. I always wish and hope that readers will react in this fashion.

These are important issues with a lot of temporal and eternal consequences. They should be taken more seriously, by Catholics and non-Catholics alike, than they usually seem to be. If there are some problems in how you’re perceiving the issue of development of doctrine, you should be more concerned with correcting those problems than with trying to avoid the difficulties involved in changing your position on the issue.

Amen!

[ . . . ]

II. William Webster and Development
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Dave raised the possibility that William Webster asked me to reply to his (Dave’s) article. He didn’t. I decided myself to reply to Dave, and I haven’t had any discussions with William Webster on the subject.

Fair enough. I thought this might be the case, since I have yet to hear from William Webster in a year-and-a-half, as of this writing. I did inform him that I wrote my paper. I remain very interested in seeing his response, if he should ever change his mind.

[deleted citation of my words]

In my first reply, I specifically quoted Dave saying that people like William Webster and James White are “anti-development”.

Mr. White certainly is to some serious degree, judging by his words in a personal letter to me, cited in our last exchange (emphasis and note added):

You said that usually the Protestant misunderstands the concept of development. Well, before Newman [who lived in the 19th century] came up with it, I guess we had good reason, wouldn’t you say? . . . Might it actually be that the Protestant fully understands development but rightly rejects it?

Dave cited Vincent of Lerins, and he repeatedly referred to how the First Vatican Council accepted “development” . . .

As Newman drew directly from the 5th century work of St. Vincent of Lerins, it is exceedingly strange that Mr. White (and George Salmon) seem to think that Newman was the originator of “the concept of development” 1400 years later.

. . . Dave considers George Salmon to have rejected all forms of development of doctrine. (I’m not going to be addressing George Salmon in this article.)

He seems to, yes, as I think I showed near the beginning of my paper.

In his first article, Dave repeatedly associates William Webster with George Salmon. Yet, in his second article, Dave distinguishes between Webster and Salmon, explaining that he’s not accusing Webster of rejecting all forms of development. If you’re not making that accusation against Webster, Dave, then why repeatedly tie him together with Salmon in your first article,

Because their methodologies are quite similar. Neither understands development of doctrine, and both think that Newman was a special pleader who used his theory of development to rationalize away Catholic “problems” with regard to the history of doctrine. Mr. White implied that Salmon’s book (now well over a hundred years old) was the last word on the subject, and asked me if I had read it. Actually, I had consulted it when I was warring against infallibility as an evangelical Protestant in 1990. I’m quite familiar with this way of thinking because it was my own in those days. Webster and White argue on this topic much like I would have in 1990.

why cite Vincent of Lerins,

Because he so obviously, clearly, espouses so-called “Newmanian” development in the 5th century. He came up because William Webster stated that Vatican I rejected development of doctrine. I showed how the Council cited the very work in which St. Vincent’s explicit treatment of development appears.

and why make unqualified references to how Vatican I accepted “development”?

Because it did! Webster denied this in his original paper, with statements like the following:

The papal encyclical, Satis Cognitum, written by Pope Leo XIII in 1896, is a commentary on and papal confirmation of the teachings of Vatican I. As to the issue of doctrinal development, Leo makes it quite clear that Vatican I leaves no room for such a concept in its teachings. Leo states over and over again that the papacy was fully established by Christ from the very beginning and that it has been the foundation of the constitution of the Church and recognized as such from the very start and throughout all ages.

It is true that Mr. Webster is a bit unclear in his choice of words. I see that more clearly now, with the benefit of Jason’s clarifications. I think I was assuming that he couldn’t have been so misinformed as to think that the Catholic Church would rule out development of doctrine on one issue (the papacy), and allow it in others, when in fact, we hold that all doctrines develop over time. Webster’s arguments about the papacy and what Vatican I supposedly taught about it vis-a-vis development were so wrongheaded that I may have assumed wrongly that he was trying to deny all development (I’d have to re-read it to get inside of my specific train of thought once again).

But Webster — without a doubt — badly botches the facts of the matter with regard to what Vatican I’s teaching on the papacy, and how it relates (or doesn’t relate) to development of doctrine. One has to read my paper itself to see how he does this. It is much too complicated to summarize here.

Webster’s confusion pertaining to the development of doctrine is revealed in statements like, “Leo states over and over again that the papacy was fully established by Christ from the very beginning . . . ,” as if this is a contradiction of development. Of course the papacy was there from the beginning; we believe all Catholic doctrines were present in the apostolic age, whether explicitly or in kernel form (the “apostolic deposit” of Acts 2:42 and Jude 3). The early papacy was very much a kernel, but that is no argument whatever as to its somehow not being capable under the same premises of much subsequent development, or not established by Christ Himself.

As I explained in my first reply, William Webster seems to object to Catholic apologists appealing to development on some specific issues, not on any and every issue.

I can understand that, and agree that this shouldn’t be done (though I would disagree with his assessment as to how often Catholic apologists commit this error).

If Dave now agrees with me about this, then much of his first article was inaccurate and irrelevant.

Not really, because it would be limited to a discussion of papal development only, rather than development in general. But since the former subject was the main topic of discussion in both his article and Vatican I itself, my points still stand. I believe Mr. Webster was shown to be in great error with regard to the fact of what was taught by the Council.

If Webster would agree with Dave that Vatican I and Pope Leo XIII would accept some forms of development of doctrine, while rejecting other forms (and Webster thinks modern Catholic apologists are advocating some of those other forms), then what’s the point of Dave citing Vincent of Lerins, Cardinal Newman, etc.? What’s the point of making unqualified references to “development”, as though Webster would deny that Vatican I and Pope Leo XIII accepted development on any issue? I think my argument that Dave misrepresented William Webster’s position has yet to be refuted.

I have no problem admitting that Webster accepts some forms of development and rejects others. That is no big deal, and I accept your word on that. I continue to maintain that he neither understands the true nature of development, nor what Vatican I taught about papal development; and I say he accepts or denies developments arbitrarily, based on Protestant axiomatic presuppositions of which are “proper” and which are not. And Webster seems not to know that the Catholic Church thinks all Christian doctrines undergo development.

The issue isn’t: “Mariology develops but the papacy does not,” but rather: “by what principle do we determine what is a proper development of doctrine x and what is a corruption of doctrine x?” For the Catholic (to offer an example), transubstantiation would be a “proper development” of patristic views with regard to the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist. The Zwinglian purely symbolic presence would be a corruption of same.

III. Deductive vs. Speculative Developments (the Holy Trinity vs. the Immaculate Conception)
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As this article addresses specific issues such as the Immaculate Conception and the papacy, I want the reader to keep something in mind. We ought to distinguish between possibilities and probabilities. When an evolutionist ignores the probable evidence for creation in favor of highly unlikely possibilities regarding how life may have evolved, conservative Catholics and evangelicals alike condemn that.

When a skeptic of Christianity proposes a highly unlikely alternative theory to the resurrection, such as that all of the witnesses were either lying or hallucinating, and that the corroboration from non-Christians was either forged or reliant on Christian sources, conservative Catholics and evangelicals alike condemn that. When Catholics are responding to skeptics of Christianity, they’re careful in distinguishing between possibilities and probabilities. They ought to do the same when responding to evangelicals, but they often don’t.

I agree with the abstract principle Jason sets down here, but I’m sure we will disagree on its application in individual instances.

Let me cite an example I referred to in my first reply to Dave. According to Dave and other Catholic apologists, Roman Catholic doctrines rejected by evangelicals have developed in a way comparable to how Trinitarian doctrine developed.

Yes. There is no difference in principle. Protestants will always argue, of course, that distinctive Catholic doctrines have no biblical support (and I imagine you will do that here), but that is a separate issue. One can quibble about relative support from the Bible, and then one can wrangle over the actual historical process of development. Sola Scriptura itself is false on other grounds (not the least of which are strong biblical arguments), and the canon of the New Testament is utterly without biblical support, yet Protestants accept it as a legitimate development. That flaw and blatant inconsistency in their system has never been adequately overcome.

Let’s compare the development of a Trinitarian doctrine, the co-existence of the three Persons, with the development of a Roman Catholic doctrine, the Immaculate Conception. Can it be said that the concept of the co-existence of the three Persons developed over time? Yes, if what’s meant is that people’s understanding of the concept and its importance, as well as its presence in various passages of scripture, expanded over time.

However, as I explained in my first reply to Dave, the difference between something like the co-existence of the three Persons and something like the Immaculate Conception is that the former is logically necessary and non-speculative in what Jesus and the apostles taught, whereas the latter is logically unnecessary and speculative.

Okay; how is the canon of the New Testament logically necessary and non-speculative like the Trinity? If you can’t give any support for that, your argument collapses, since Protestants would then be accepting a notion which is parallel logically and in terms of “solid biblical evidence” with the Immaculate Conception, and you would then have to explain your own arbitrariness in accepting the canon on a different logical basis than something like the Holy Trinity.

When a passage like Matthew 3:16-17 refers to all three Persons of the Trinity existing at once, or some other passages refer to all three Persons raising Jesus from the dead, meaning that they had to have existed at the same time, the co-existence of the three Persons is unavoidable. Might it take a while for a person to realize this, and might his views be said to have developed in that sense? Yes. But does that make this Trinitarian doctrine comparable to a doctrine like the Immaculate Conception? No, it doesn’t. Let me explain why.

I agree that the Holy Trinity is the only possible deduction and consistent interpretation of all the biblical data (and I have two lengthy papers on my website presenting the hundreds of biblical proofs for the Godhood of Jesus and for the Holy Trinity). I also agree that the biblical evidences for the Trinity are far, far stronger than for the Immaculate Conception (though the latter are not entirely lacking, as Protestants suppose). But that is not relevant to the truthfulness of the Immaculate Conception; it is only relevant as to the extent and type of biblical proofs which can be given.

We don’t believe that every Christian doctrine has to be found whole and entire in the Scriptures, because Scripture itself does not lay that concept down as a principle for believing something or not. Protestants simply assume that sola Scriptura is true (thus making many of their arguments about doctrine circular), but, as I said, that is another argument. This discussion is about development of doctrine.

When a passage like Luke 1:28 is cited in favor of the Immaculate Conception, is it logically necessary to conclude that the passage is teaching the concept that Mary was conceived without sin? No, and not only is it not logically necessary, but it’s also highly speculative. The passage doesn’t say anything about sinlessness, much less sinlessness since the time of conception. The “full of grace” translation is an old one, and it’s widely rejected today.

But even if we assume that it’s the best translation of the passage, the Greek just can’t carry the weight that Catholic apologists want to place on it. There’s nothing in the Greek that leads to the conclusion of conception without sin. Even if we just consider the English translation, could “full of grace” be a reference to sinlessness? Yes. Could it also be a reference to sinfulness (Romans 5:20)? Yes. And however we interpret “full of grace”, it doesn’t tell us anything about how Mary was conceived.

One mustn’t claim too much for one’s argument. The Catholic apologist cannot possibly assert that the entire concept of the Immaculate Conception is included in Luke 1:28; only that that verse is entirely consistent with Mary being sinless, which itself is a prerequisite for the Immaculate Conception (and, we say, the kernel of the doctrine). That the verse strongly suggests sinlessness, however, can be shown by examining the linguistic considerations and cross-referencing.

Clearly, it’s false to claim that a concept like the co-existence of the three Persons developed in a way similar to how the concept of the Immaculate Conception developed. I’ll give further evidence to that effect in my section below that specifically addresses the Immaculate Conception doctrine.

I agree with this, but I don’t see how it renders the Immaculate Conception unworthy of belief, except under the assumption of sola Scriptura, which is a falsehood. You can’t simply assume sola Scriptura as some Eternal, Unquestioned Principle Etched in Stone when arguing with a Catholic apologist (because you are assuming what you are trying to prove; thus begging the question). We reject the notion as unbiblical and unworkable and illogical. Your comparison would be like saying:

“The Trinity has far more biblical support than does the canon of the New Testament [which has none whatsoever]; therefore, we gladly accept the Trinity but reject the New Testament canon.”

Obviously Protestants don’t do that, and therein lies their logical dilemma. But with regard to the Immaculate Conception, there is indeed an argument which I have developed from the Bible Alone:

1. The Bible teaches that we are saved by God’s grace.

2. The Bible teaches that we need God’s grace to live a holy life, above sin.

3. To be “full of” God’s grace, then, is to be saved.

4. Therefore, Mary is saved.

5. To be “full of” God’s grace is also to be so holy that one is sinless.

6. Therefore, Mary is holy and sinless.

7. The essence of the Immaculate Conception is sinlessness.

8. Therefore, the Immaculate Conception, in its essence, is directly deduced from
the strong evidence of many biblical passages, which teach the doctrines of #1 and #2.

The logic would seem to follow inexorably, from unquestionable biblical principles. The only way out of it would be to deny one of the two premises, and hold that either (1) grace doesn’t save, or that (2) grace isn’t that power which enables one to be sinless and holy. In this fashion, the entire essence of the Immaculate Conception is proven (alone) from biblical principles and doctrines which every orthodox Protestant holds.

Note again that I do not say the entire doctrine can be deduced from Scripture, but only its essence, which is sinlessness. That is already quite enough for Protestants to be alarmed about . . . The argument is fleshed out to a greater extent in the above-cited papers.

So, then, I ask the reader to remember the difference between a possibility and a probability as you read the rest of this article. Is Dave, along with other Catholic apologists, showing a preference for highly unlikely possibilities over far more likely probabilities? If a skeptic of Christianity did the same thing with regard to the issue of creation or Christ’s resurrection, how would you respond?

And I ask the reader to remember how Jason absolutely will not be able to show that the canon of Scripture has any more support in the Bible than the Immaculate Conception does. In fact, it undeniably has no support at all (whereas I have given support for the Immaculate Conception and have provided much more elsewhere). Everyone admits that the canon is not in the Bible itself.

Yet the Protestant never doubts it. It is as indubitable to him as the Trinity, even though it has not a shred of biblical evidence in its favor, and was, in fact, a decree of a Catholic local synod (a rather late development, coming in the late 4th century; more than 350 years after Jesus’ death), authoritatively accepted by two popes.

If Catholic apologists want to argue that the authority of the Catholic Church makes otherwise unlikely doctrines likely, isn’t that just the point that evangelicals are making? Evangelicals accuse Catholics of accepting doctrines that aren’t supported by the evidence, because the Roman Catholic Church teaches those doctrines.

I vigorously deny that they have no evidence. And I assert that they have much more biblical evidence than the canon of the New Testament and sola Scriptura, which have absolutely no biblical support, yet are bedrock fundamentals of the Protestant system of authority and theology. And since biblical support is made a requirement for every Protestant belief (excepting the two concepts above, though), that is quite a greater internal difficulty in your position than anything you can come up with in our system.

If Catholics are going to admit that concepts such as the Assumption of Mary and the seven sacraments are speculative, and that they can’t be traced back to the apostles historically, that’s an admission of what evangelicals have been saying.

We don’t admit those things in those terms (much as you would love us to, to make your job much easier). All the sacraments are indicated in Scripture, and even the Assumption can be deduced from it (though the historical evidence is weaker than that of perhaps any other Catholic doctrine).

As we’ll see in the section of this article that addresses the papacy, the concept that the Roman Catholic Church has the authority to develop doctrine for us is itself an unlikely and speculative development.

Authority, too, is a very complex (and separate) issue. It seems that Jason’s ambitions in this paper are rather grand. I find that dialogues are more constructive, however, in proportion to how narrow the subject matter is. I will have to limit my answers on all these side issues, having written about all these things at length elsewhere.

[deleted citation of mine and Jason’s reiteration of his argument]

Before going on to some specific doctrines, I want to respond to a comment Dave made in his reply to me. This is an argument that’s made by a lot of Catholic apologists, despite how irrational it is:

In Catholicism, it is not the individual who reigns supreme, but the corporate Christianity and ‘accumulated wisdom’ of the Church (itself grounded in Holy Scripture);

Relying on your own personal judgments is impossible to avoid. Evangelicals trust the Bible as their rule of faith because of their personal interpretation of the evidence. Catholics trust their rule of faith as a result of their personal interpretation of the evidence. So if Dave is referring to reliance on personal judgment, he’s criticizing something that every person does, including Catholics. If Dave wants to argue that he was criticizing something else, then what was he criticizing?

He can’t say that he was criticizing evangelicals for ignoring the conclusions reached by most of professing Christianity, because it seems that most of professing Christianity actually disagrees with Dave on some issues, such as transubstantiation and papal infallibility. According to polls, even many Catholics oppose some of what the Catholic Church teaches. So if Dave’s criticism of “the individual reigning supreme” isn’t a criticism of personal interpretation (which Catholics also rely on), and it isn’t a criticism of ignoring majority conclusions (some of what the Catholic Church teaches is rejected by the majority), then what is Dave criticizing?

I’ve dealt with this vexed issue of private judgment (yet another rabbit trail) many times . . .

[ . . . ]

In my first reply to Dave, I explained that the most straightforward reading of passages like Luke 1:47 and John 2:3-4 is that Mary was a sinner. Just after quoting me saying that, Dave made the following comment regarding Luke 1:47:

The Immaculate Conception was a pure act of grace on God’s part, saving Mary by preventing her from entering the pit of sin as she surely would have, but for that special grace.

Is this interpretation of Luke 1:47, that God is Mary’s Savior in the sense of keeping her from ever sinning, a possibility? Yes, it is. But remember what Dave was responding to. He was responding to my argument that viewing Mary as a sinner is the more straightforward interpretation of the passage. And is it? Yes, it obviously is. There’s no scriptural precedent for Dave’s interpretation of Luke 1:47, whereas there are all sorts of scriptural examples of God being a Savior to a person by saving him from sins actually committed.

In other words, Catholics are appealing to an unlikely interpretation of scripture in order to reconcile scripture with a Roman Catholic doctrine that wouldn’t be dogmatized until about 1800 years later. The point I made, that the more straightforward reading of Luke 1:47 is that Mary was a sinner, is valid.

On the face of it, yes, but this is an overly simplistic reading, without the proper exegesis. I agree that talk of a “Savior” most plausibly (and normally) refers to the need of redemption from sin. But there are exceptions to every rule, too. Just 19 verses earlier than Luke 1:47 we have a statement that Mary is “full of grace” (the Greek word is kecharitomene — which includes the root word charitoo — Greek for grace).

I made a deductive biblical argument above showing that she is sinless, based on the straightforward meaning of this verse. If she is sinless then she wouldn’t have sinned! That being the case, then in order to harmonize two seemingly contradictory statements in one passage, one must either reinterpret “Savior” or “full of grace.” The Catholic reinterprets the first; the Protestant reinterprets the second.

The difference is that the linguistic considerations for kecharitomene are fairly strong arguments favoring the Catholic position, whereas the Catholic argument with regard to “Savior” does not attempt to deny that Mary is saved; we are only saying that she was saved by grace in a different fashion than those who fall into actual sin.

She needed a Savior by the simple fact that she was a member of the fallen human race, just like every other creature. Yet the essence of being a human being is not sinfulness. If that were true, then Jesus wasn’t truly man; nor were Adam and Eve ever sinless at any time, nor was God’s creation originally “good.”

[deleted further material on the Immaculate Conception, private confession, the seven sacraments, and transubstantiation, so as to concentrate on the underlying premises of development itself, not specific doctrines dealt with elsewhere in my writings and website — all of which deserve their own in-depth treatments]

IV. Development and the New Testament Canon (Difficulties for Protestantism)
*
[N]otice how the term “essence” is being used. It’s important that you understand what’s going on here. What’s the primary “essence” that’s objected to by evangelicals in the concept of the seven sacraments? The numbering of the sacraments at seven. The Council of Trent anathematized anybody who says that there are less or more than seven sacraments. Can Dave and other Catholic apologists make an argument that the concept of sacraments is Biblical? Yes, they can. But can they make a rational Biblical argument for numbering the sacraments at seven? No, they can’t.

Can Jason and other Protestant apologists make an argument that the concept of biblical books is biblical? Yes, they can. But can they make a rational biblical argument for numbering the New Testament books at twenty-seven? No, they can’t.

Notice, then, what’s going on here. Dave is taking something not being disputed in this context (that the concept of sacraments can be defended as Biblical), and he’s saying that it represents the “essence” of what is in dispute (numbering the sacraments at seven).

I may have been unclear in my wording. What I was intending to argue was that (biblically established) sacramentalism itself is the essence of having seven sacraments, just as charisms in Scripture form the basis of spiritual gifts, no matter how many gifts are determined to exist. Having seven sacraments is, of course, not any bit more arbitrary than Luther’s and Calvin’s two, or Baptists having none.

Likewise, the essence of the biblical books is that they are all inspired. But determining exactly which and how many books possess this characteristic, and why, is another matter entirely, just as the determination of the number of sacraments must necessarily rely on human authority (guided by the Holy Spirit into all truth).

The same sort of thing is done by Catholic apologists on other issues. For example, the concept that Mary is a Second Eve is portrayed by Catholic apologists as an expression of the “essence” behind the Immaculate Conception, the “essence” that hasn’t changed over the years. But is that accurate? No, the concept of a Second Eve doesn’t have to involve an immaculately conceived Mary.

That’s right, but it is irrelevant, because no one is saying that it does. The Immaculate Conception is the development of the Second Eve concept, so by definition, the latter wouldn’t fully contain the former, else there would be no development at all to speak of. This is such an elementary consideration that Jason seems to have completely overlooked it.

The essence in this instance is sinlessness. That is what doesn’t change through the years, with increased understanding. So the Second Eve (as advanced by Church Fathers such as St. Irenaeus) doesn’t have to be without sin from conception, but the Immaculate Mary has to be sinless.

Upon reflection of what it means to be sinless and to be the Theotokos, or “God-bearer,” and — following the parallelism — how original sin stands in relation to the First Eve and the Second Eve (itself an analogy to the Pauline motif of “in Adam all men fell / in Christ all men are saved”), the mind of the Church arrived in due course at the Immaculate Conception, which amounts to no more than God bringing Mary to the place that Eve was before the Fall and the introduction of original sin.

It is really quite simple. Protestants make it much more complicated than it has to be, because of their prior hostility to a sinless creature, and what they falsely think this means with regard to the inherent nature of Mary (i.e., they suspect that Catholics are raising her to an idolatrously exalted position that no human being can attain).

To say that the concept of a New Eve is an expression of the “essence” that Roman Catholics still believe today, and to act as though that proves that the Immaculate Conception has always been a doctrine of the Christian church (as Pope Pius IX taught), is fallacious.

Jason’s reasoning is what is “fallacious” here. He doesn’t understand how the Catholic Church applies development in individual instances. When the Church states that something has “always been believed,” what it is saying is that the kernel or essence has always been believed, not the entire developed doctrine (just as St. Vincent of Lerins combined his famous “canon” or “dictum” — “what has been believed everywhere, always, and by all” – with a superb exposition on development, in the very same writing).

In other words, it is not a matter of the Church being intellectually dishonest with history and engaging in self-serving historical revisionism (as is the charge from the contra-Catholic critics of development); rather, it is the Protestant polemicist who has only a dim understanding at best of how we view development of doctrine.

Catholic apologists are taking concepts that aren’t in dispute and are calling them expressions of the “essence” of what is in dispute, even when there’s nothing that logically requires the disputed concept to be part of the undisputed concept that allegedly has the “essence”.

But again, this is a non sequitur. Apparently Jason is looking at Second Eve without taking into consideration that sinlessness is part and parcel of that concept, by its very nature, and can’t be separated from it. Eve was originally sinless. This is the whole point of the Second Eve analogy in the Fathers. Mary is a “second chance,” so to speak, for the human race to do the right thing, rather than rebel against God.

Mary’s “yes” at the Annunciation undoes Eve’s “no” at the Fall. They both had to be without sin for their acts to have the significance that they both did, and for the parallelism to apply. Therefore, the initial concept or “kernel” (New Eve = Mary’s sinlessness) is disputed by Protestants, just as the development (Immaculate Conception) is, and Jason’s point has no force, based as it is on a misunderstanding once again.

The example I used earlier was the fact that somebody like Tertullian could see Mary as a New Eve, yet consider her a sinner at the same time.

There are always exceptions to the rule. Catholics don’t say that all Fathers agree on any given point; only that there was a great consensus; precisely as with the canon of Scripture. Protestants minimize the dissenting opinions on the canon of Scripture, whereas they maximize them when it comes to Mary’s sinlessness and the Second Eve patristic motif. The only difference is that one involves a notion they accept, and the other, one that they reject; hence the historical bias and conveniently selective historical emphasis.

But that’s not fair, open-minded inquiry. It is special pleading. Rather than acknowledge the patristic consensus on Mary, Protestant polemicists dwell on the exceptions to the rule, as if this disproves anything (as the Catholic Church already agrees that exceptions will and do occur).

I could just as easily make a vacuous, specious argument that the 27-book New Testament canon is illegitimate because, up to 160 A.D no one seemed to acknowledge the canonicity of the books of Acts, Hebrews, James, 1 and 2 Peter, 1, 2, 3 John, Jude, and Revelation (that’s 10 out of 27 books). Justin Martyr (d.c. 165) didn’t recognize Philippians or 1 Timothy, and his Gospels included apocryphal material. Clement of Alexandria and Origen (before the mid-3rd century) seemed to think that the Epistle of Barnabas was inspired Scripture.

They thought the same about the Didache, and the Shepherd of Hermas (along with Irenaeus and Tertullian, in the latter instance). Clement of Alexandria (d.c. 215) also thinks that The Apocalypse and Peter and the Gospel of Hebrews were Scripture, and Origen accepted the Acts of Paul. No Father got all the books right (and excluded others later decided to be uncanonical) until St. Athanasius in 367, more than 300 years after Christ’s death.

The famous Muratorian Canon of c. 190 excluded Hebrews, James, and 1 and 2 Peter and included The Apocalypse of Peter and Wisdom of Solomon. The Council of Nicaea in 325 questioned the canonicity of James, 2 Peter, 2 John, 3 John, and Jude. James wasn’t even quoted in the West until around 350 A.D.! Revelation was rejected by Cyril of Jerusalem, John Chrysostom, and Gregory Nazianzen, and the Epistle of Barnabas and Shepherd of Hermas were included in the Codex Sinaiticus in the late 4th century.

By Jason’s reasoning process, then, we ought to reject the New Testament canon, as there were so many anomalies in lists of the books well into the 4th century (people didn’t know what the essence of the canon was, and later interpreters anachronistically imposed their views back upon the earlier Fathers). Some local Catholic Councils make an authoritative list in 393 and 397 (which are authoritatively approved by two popes as binding on all the faithful), and this is accepted pretty much without question by all Christians subsequently, as if the list itself were inspired.

Yet when it comes to something like the Immaculate Conception, the fact that some altogether predictable anomalies in the Fathers can be found is proof positive to Jason and many Protestants that the doctrine is illegitimate and to be discarded, on that basis alone, not to mention alleged complete lack of scriptural proofs. Here is some of the evidence which is present in the Fathers for the Second Eve concept and Mary’s sinlessness, and kernels of the later fully-developed Immaculate Conception:

In the second century, St. Justin Martyr is already expounding the “New Eve” teaching:

Christ became man by the Virgin so that the disobedience which proceeded from the serpent might be destroyed in the same way it originated. For Eve, being a virgin and undefiled, having conceived the word from the serpent, brought forth disobedience and death. The Virgin Mary, however, having received faith and joy, when the angel Gabriel announced to her the good tidings . . . answered: Be it done to me according to thy word. (Dialogue with Trypho, 100:5, in Graef, Hilda, Mary: A History of Doctrine and Devotion, combined ed. of vols. 1 & 2, London: Sheed & Ward, 1965 — as are all patristic quotes following unless otherwise noted)

St. Irenaeus, a little later, takes up the same theme: “What the virgin Eve had tied up by unbelief, this the virgin Mary loosened by faith.” (Against Heresies, 3,21,10) In the third century, Origen taught Mary as the second-Eve (Homily 1 on Matthew 5) Eusebius, the first Church historian, calls her panagia, or “all-holy.” (Ecclesiastica Theologia) St. Ephraem is thought to be the first Father to hold to the Immaculate Conception: “You alone and your Mother are good in every way; for there is no blemish in thee, my Lord, and no stain in thy Mother.” (Nisibene Hymns, 27,8) He invokes the Blessed Virgin in very “Catholic” fashion:

O virgin lady, immaculate Mother of God, my lady most glorious, most gracious, higher than heaven, much purer than the sun’s splendor, rays or light . . . (“Prayer to the Most Holy Mother of God”)

St. Gregory Nazianzen, still in the same century, frequently refers to Mary as “undefiled.” (Carmina, 1,2,1) St. Gregory of Nyssa calls her “undefiled,” (E.g., Against Appolinaris, 6) and develops the Mary-Eve theme. (Homily 13 on the Canticle / On the Birth of Christ) St. Epiphanius, like all the Fathers, he places Mariology under the category of Christology and states: “He who honours the Lord honours also the holy vessel; he who dishonours the holy vessel, also dishonours his Lord.” (Panarion, 78,21) St. Epiphanius also teaches the parallelism of Eve and Mary (which was the common belief of Eastern, Greek Christianity, and concludes that Mary is “the mother of the living.” (Panarion, 78,18).

He identifies the Woman of Revelation 12 with Mary and suggests that she may have been assumed bodily into heaven (Panarion, 78,11). St. Ambrose contended that she was sinless. (Commentary on Luke, 2,17 / Commentary on Psalms 118, 22,30) St. Jerome, in the late fourth and early fifth century, continued the Second Eve motif. St. Augustine affirms the sinlessness of the Blessed Virgin Mary:

The holy Virgin Mary, about whom, for the honour of the Lord, I want there to be no question where sin is mentioned, for concerning her we know that more grace for conquering sin in every way was given to her who merited to conceive and give birth to him, who certainly had no sin whatsoever — this virgin excepted, if we could . . . ask all saints, whether they were without sin, what, do we think, would they answer? (Nature and Grace, 36,42)

Just as Catholics argue for seven sacraments, somebody else could argue for two, three, six, or twelve.

Precisely my point earlier. It obviously rests on human ecclesiastical authority. That Calvin and Luther (or Zwingli) would possess this necessary authority, rather than the Fathers or the Council of Trent and other Ecumenical Councils, or popes, are different questions entirely, and ones which cause innumerable problems for the Protestant position vis-a-vis any consistent notion of Church history and the biblical basis of authority.

In fact, before the Middle Ages, there were all sorts of numbers given to the sacraments. The concept that there are no less and no more than seven is a concept of the Middle Ages that cannot in any rational way be traced back to the apostles.

In fact, before 367, there were all sorts of books considered to be inspired and part of the New Testament (and a lack of acknowledgment of certain inspired books). The notion that there are no less and no more than twenty-seven is a concept of the mid-4th century at the earliest (St. Athanasius), that cannot in any rational way be traced back to the apostles.

Therefore, the New Testament canon is every bit as arbitrary as the seven sacraments of Catholicism (and Orthodoxy).

What if some group was to declare dogmatically that there are nine sacraments, the seven of the Roman Catholic Church, along with foot washing (John 13:5-15) and taking offerings (1 Corinthians 16:1)? What if this group would anathematize anybody who disagrees, and would claim that its tradition of nine sacraments had developed no differently than Trinitarian doctrine has?

We would show that such a group has neither the authority of the Catholic Church, nor the historical or biblical arguments which we have in support of our notions of development of doctrine.

This [the canon] is an issue that Catholic apologists consider one of their greatest strengths.

Indeed. We are seeing a demonstration of the weakness of opposing arguments unfold before our very eyes. :-)

It’s actually one of their greatest weaknesses.

We shall see as the discussion unfolds. It is always to a person’s “tactical” advantage if their dialogical opponent greatly underestimates the strength of their arguments. It’s like the old Chinese maxim about warfare: that one must always start with a proper respect for their adversary, in order to prevail in battle.

Unfortunately, most evangelicals, even well-known evangelical apologists, haven’t thought through the issue enough to realize its potential for disproving Roman Catholicism.

The first part doesn’t surprise me at all; the second part is simply untrue, as will be shown.

. . . I’m aware that Irenaeus, Clement of Alexandria, and other church fathers held a different New Testament canon than I hold today. And I would add, . . . that there were disagreements on the New Testament canon even beyond the fourth century.

Okay.

1. True developments must be explicitly grounded in Scripture, or else they are arbitrary and “unbiblical” or “antibiblical” — therefore false. Dr. James White (a la Confucius) says: “The text of Scripture provides the grounds, and most importantly, the limits for this development over time” (Roman Catholic Controversy, p. 83).

*

2. The Trinity and the Resurrection of Christ and the Virgin Birth, for example, are thoroughly grounded in Scripture, and are therefore proper (but Catholics also hold to these beliefs).

3. The canon of the New Testament is (undeniably) not itself a “biblical doctrine.” The New Testament never gives a “text” for the authoritative listing of its books.

4. Therefore, the canon of the New Testament is not a legitimate development of doctrine (according to #1), and is, in fact, a corruption and a false teaching.

5. Therefore, in light of #4, the New Testament (i.e., in the 27-book form which has been passed down through the Catholic centuries to Luther and the Protestants as a received Tradition) cannot be used as a measuring-rod to judge the orthodoxy of other doctrines.

6. #5 being the case, the Engwer/White criterion for legitimate developments is radically self-defeating, and must be discarded (along with sola Scriptura itself).

The Roman Catholic rule of faith doesn’t list its own canon either. There is no allegedly infallible ruling of the Roman Catholic Church that lists every oral tradition, every papal decree, every council ruling, etc. that’s infallible.

We’re talking about the canon of the New Testament at the moment. Switching the subject does not alleviate internal Protestant difficulties and inconsistencies (in fact, Catholic views – whatever one thinks of them – obviously have nothing to do with alleged Protestant inconsistencies). We’re not discussing at the moment which system is preferable, but rather, whether Protestantism is logically consistent with regard to the canon and other developments which proceed on (we hold) scarcely any different principles. These are two separate discussions. At the moment, I hope that Jason will deal with my critique of his system, per the lengthy citation of my words he has posted above.

At least evangelicals have a specific canon for their rule of faith, which is more than can be said for Roman Catholics.

That is not at issue here. We know what the Protestant measuring-rod is. We want to know the process by which it is arrived at within Protestant presuppositions, and how and why this (epistemological) process is self-consistent and supposedly different in kind than the same sort of processes we would cite pertaining to the development of doctrines with which Protestants disagree.

There is no “measuring rod” in Roman Catholicism that’s specifically defined. That’s why the path is wide open to whatever speculations and heresies Roman Catholic theologians can convince their hierarchy to teach.

This is simply evasion of Protestant difficulties by switching the topic over to Catholicism.

Do you want to claim that Mary was immaculately conceived? How about calling her the dispenser of all grace?

This is even further removed from our topic (perhaps we could also take up the subjects of plate tectonics or how to improve the fortunes of the Detroit Lions next season?). The Mediatrix issue is complex in and of itself, and involves a huge discussion (and many elements vastly misunderstood by Protestants).

Maybe you want to proclaim her the incarnation of the Holy Spirit, as I’ve heard some Catholic theologians have proposed?

Name them . . . and explain what you think they mean (in another exchange, where it is on the subject).

There is no specific canon for the Roman Catholic rule of faith. The sky is the limit, and it seems that even the sky can be removed if it gets in the way of elevating Mary, for example. Catholics claim that “Sacred Tradition” is part of their rule of faith, but the term is so unspecified as to lead to all sorts of speculative and unverifiable conclusions. If the absence of a specific list of canonical books in scripture has been a fault in evangelicalism, then the absence of a specific list of all “Sacred Traditions” in Catholicism has been an even worse fault.

Why do I say that it’s been even worse? Wouldn’t it just be an equal problem? I say that it’s been worse because at least evangelicals have used specific principles to define a specific canon, whereas Catholics leave their canon undefined and ripe for abuse. (The reader may want to see my article titled “A Question for Those Who Oppose Sola Scriptura“)

This is all perfectly irrelevant to my immediate critique, as succinctly summarized in my six-part argument that Jason cited above. The only relevant part is the half-sentence: “at least evangelicals have used specific principles to define a specific canon.” I hope that Jason will expand upon that and actually deal with my arguments. It is sort of like the child’s taunt, “well, well, . . . well, your dad’s uglier than my dad!” “At least my dad doesn’t do so-and-so like yours does!” This sort of “reasoning” is also often applied to political matters and (as we see) to religious issues as well.

The primary canonical criterion of evangelicals is the same as that of the church fathers: apostolicity. And the concept of the unique authority of the apostles is undeniably Biblical. The Protestant historian J.N.D. Kelly explains in Early Christian Doctrines (San Francisco, California: HarperCollins Publishers, 1978) that “the criterion which ultimately came to prevail was apostolicity. Unless a book could be shown to come from the pen of an apostle, or at least to have the authority of an apostle behind it, it was peremptorily rejected, however edifying or popular with the faithful it might be.” (p. 60)

This is fine, but it has no bearing on the arguments I have presented with regard to Protestants and the canon, according to their own principles of authority, and in relation to other developments. We agree on this general notion of apostolicity, so it is not at issue.

The criterion of the early post-apostolic Christians was whether a book was apostolic (John 16:13-15, Acts 1:8, 1 Corinthians 12:28, 2 Peter 3:2), not whether a hierarchy in Rome approved of the book.

How come no one in the early period seemed to know that the book of Acts was apostolic then (written, as it was, by Luke, whose Gospel was accepted early on)? We don’t hold that a book is apostolic simply because Rome says so. The Church merely recognizes what is inherently what it is: an inspired document. But there still must be some authoritative recognition. This is part of my point.

To the contrary, Eusebius tells us in his church history (3:3) that most churches accepted the canonicity of Hebrews even while the Roman church was not accepting it. And individuals and churches accepted and rejected other books that were not accepted and rejected by the Roman church. The early church’s approach toward the canon contradicts the Roman Catholic approach.

Be that as it may, it doesn’t affect my argument one way or another. You have to answer to my specific arguments, both in the original paper, and elaborations in this one. So far you haven’t touched them with a ten-foot pole.

It will do no good to argue that the Roman church allowed people to follow whatever canon they wanted to follow early on.

I agree, which is why I didn’t make such an argument.

The early writers cite books of scripture as Divine revelation, and they hold all people responsible for obeying those books as the word of God. They didn’t view this as a matter of freedom that was allowed by a Pope. Rather, they personally evaluated the evidence for which books should be considered canonical, and they arrived at their own conclusions.

They were just as confident in and reliant upon personal judgments in these matters as evangelicals are today. They obviously didn’t agree with the modern Catholic apologists who argue that we can’t be confident about whether a book is scripture unless we have an infallible ruling from the Roman Catholic Church.

More non sequiturs . . .

I referred to personally evaluating evidence to arrive at a canon. And here I want to quote a comment Dave made:

So I guess that means Jason thinks he has “replied” to my six-point argument and is now content to “move ahead.”

On what basis can you absolutely bow to (Catholic) Church authority in that one instance, while you deny its binding nature in all others, and fall back to Scripture Alone, the very canon of which was proclaimed authoritatively by the Catholic Church?

Elsewhere at his web site, Dave argues that one of the regional councils in Africa late in the fourth century settled the canon. How can a regional council in Africa settle the canon for Roman Catholics? The council of Carthage in 397 doesn’t even correspond with the canon of Roman Catholicism. For example, it apparently defined 1 Esdras differently than the Roman Catholic Church does. (Different groups have defined 1 Esdras in different ways over the centuries. The term “1 Esdras” refers to different books in different contexts.) Getting back to the main point, though, how does a regional council in Africa settle the canon for Dave and other Catholics?

Because it was granted the authority of papal approval, just as Ecumenical Councils historically were. Pope Innocent I concurred with and sanctioned the canonical ruling of the councils of Hippo and Carthage (Letter to Exsuperius, Bishop of Toulouse) in 405 (he also reiterated this in 414). Carthage and Hippo were preceded by a Roman Council (382) of identical opinion, and were further ratified by Pope Gelasius I in 495, as well as the 6th Council of Carthage in 419.

The Protestant reference work, Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church (2nd edition, edited by F. L. Cross & E. A. Livingstone, Oxford Univ. Press, 1983, 232) states:

    A council probably held at Rome in 382 under St. Damasus gave a complete list of the canonical books of both the Old Testament and the New Testament (also known as the ‘Gelasian Decree’ because it was reproduced by Gelasius in 495), which is identical with the list given at Trent.

I’ve noticed an inconsistency on the part of Catholic apologists. When discussing papal infallibility, we’re repeatedly told that we must be careful to realize just what is infallible and what isn’t. In fact, we must be so careful that perhaps only two or three documents in church history qualify as representing an exercise of papal infallibility. But, on the other hand, when discussing an issue like the canon, it seems that just about anything will do. Does a regional council in Africa agree with most of the Roman Catholic canon, but not all of it? Close enough! We thereby have an infallible ruling on the Roman Catholic canon.

I have explained it sufficiently above, I think. This will suffice for fair-minded and open-minded readers.

The truth is that the Roman Catholic canon was settled for Catholics at the Council of Trent.

In the highest level of authority, yes. But that was simply a stronger statement of what had occurred more than 1100 years earlier.

But, if you’re a Catholic apologist, try telling people that Christians for over 1500 years had no reason for being confident in what is and isn’t scripture.

Note that Jason is again (maybe he is unaware of his tendencies) speaking about alleged Catholic internal inconsistencies (and in a factually-incorrect manner at that), rather than dealing with my critique of the Protestant system. and what I contend is internal incoherence and radical inconsistency.

Actually, we can go back more than 1500 years. James White has made an argument on this subject for years now, and I’ve never seen a Catholic apologist respond to it intelligently. Jesus and the apostles repeatedly held people responsible, in the strongest terms, for knowing the Old Testament scriptures and obeying them. How did a man living at the time of Christ or earlier know that a book like Psalms or Isaiah was scripture, the word of God? Did he have some infallible ruling on the matter comparable to how Catholics view the Council of Trent? No, he didn’t.

There was no significant disagreement as to the books (unlike that of the New Testament canon, for over 300 years), excepting the deuterocanonical books, which might be regarded as a “post-canonical” dispute. These books were included in the Greek Septuagint, which was the one the apostles were most familiar with, but Protestants later saw fit to exclude them from their canon. This by no means overcomes my objection, and is only barely relevant.

The practice of people living in the Old Testament era was to accept books as scripture as a result of a personal judgment of the evidence, without any infallible hierarchy passing an infallible ruling on the matter. The people of Jesus’ time, the apostolic Christians, and the early post-apostolic Christians did the same. Modern evangelicals do that as well.

Quite the contrary: the Jews had an authoritative oral tradition, and rejected sola Scriptura. They were far more similar to Catholics in terms of authority-structure, than to Protestants. I demonstrated this at length in the chapter, “The Old Testament, the Ancient Jews, and Sola Scriptura,” on pages 52-60 of my second book, More Biblical Evidence for Catholicism.

On the other hand, we have modern Catholic apologists. (Some modern Anglicans, Eastern Orthodox, and other groups make similar arguments, though there are some differences.) Who do you think is right? The people mentioned in the paragraph above? Or the people mentioned in this paragraph? I side with the former, and I see no rational argument for doing otherwise.

I think both are right, because they operate on a largely analogous principle, whereas Protestants have adopted a radically different principle.

And just what am I referring to when I say that evangelicals arrive at their canon by means of examining evidence? Are Dave and other Catholic apologists correct in saying that I’m just referring to “Sacred Tradition”? No, that’s a false label. When a manuscript of the gospel of John is discovered that dates to the early second century, using such evidence to reach your conclusion about the dating of the gospel of John is not equivalent to relying on Roman Catholic “Sacred Tradition”.

Of course it isn’t. Who ever stated otherwise? But I fail to see how this has anything to do with what we are (supposedly) talking about.

What Catholics call “Sacred Tradition” didn’t even exist during the earliest centuries of Christianity. The church fathers who referred to “tradition” in one way or another defined it in different, and sometimes contradictory, ways. They never defined it just as Catholics do, with a Pope, a magisterium, and concepts like the seven sacraments and the Assumption of Mary.

So now we are off to the dog races of the nature of Tradition (a gigantic topic in and of itself), and indeed, the papacy, the magisterium, seven sacraments, and the Assumption (practically every topic except the kitchen sink). This is most unimpressive.

Do evangelicals rely on post-apostolic Christian documents as part of the evidence that leads them to their canon? Yes, they do. They also rely on internal evidence within the New Testament documents, archaeology, manuscript evidence, non-Christian writers, etc. To say that doing this is equivalent to “absolutely bowing to (Catholic) Church authority”, as Dave claims, is irrational. Agreement isn’t equivalent to submission. I agree with the monotheism of Islam, but that doesn’t mean that I submit to the Moslem hierarchy as my infallible guide in matters of faith.

And I agree with the New Testament canon of the Roman Catholic Church, but that doesn’t mean that I submit to the Roman Catholic Church as my infallible guide in matters of faith. It doesn’t even mean that I submit to the Roman Catholic Church on this one issue. I agree with the Catholic Church’s New Testament canon. I disagree with its Old Testament canon. Both conclusions are the result of my personal evaluation of evidence.

And this entire paragraph does nothing whatsoever to soften my critique of Jason’s position, because it never deals with my critique. I already knew that Jason didn’t submit to the authority of the Catholic Church. Nothing new or surprising there.

In closing this section of my article, I want to address the claim that the canon is a development of doctrine comparable to the seven sacraments, the Assumption of Mary, papal infallibility, etc. We have specific evidence for the authenticity of the New Testament books. Even most liberal scholars date all of the New Testament books, or the large majority at least, to the first century. The arguments against the authenticity of a book like 1 Timothy or 2 Peter are, in my view, unconvincing.

The grammatical arguments can reasonably be answered on the grounds of the use of a secretary (1 Peter 5:12). The internal arguments for authenticity, along with the external evidence, outweigh the arguments against authenticity. 2 Peter is the most doubted book in the evangelical canon. Yet, I think even the evidence for that book is more than sufficient. (See, for example, the discussion of this issue in D.A. Carson, Douglas J. Moo, and Leon Morris, An Introduction to the New Testament [Grand Rapids, Michigan: Zondervan Publishing House, 1992], pp. 433-443.

Also, see Glenn Miller’s article at http://www.webcom.com/ctt/ynotpeter1.html.) The New Testament books are written documents that we can examine by means of internal evidence and early and widespread external evidence. The same cannot be said of a doctrine like the Immaculate Conception, the seven sacraments, or private confession of all sins to a priest.

Interesting, and Catholics agree with this assessment of the canon, but (as always, thus far) this doesn’t deal with my critique. It is no dialogue to simply write about things concerning which both sides agree.

The canon is just a collection of books. When the specific collection we accept today was recognized as a collection is, in a sense, irrelevant.

Maybe that is the key to why Jason continually avoids interacting with my actual arguments.

What matters more is whether each individual book is authentic. Being given one long string of books, a canonical list, isn’t the only way to arrive at a canon. You can also arrive at a canon by stringing the books together one at a time, without a list.

Then why wasn’t anyone able to do that for more than 300 years after Jesus’ death and Resurrection? It’s easy to talk about abstractions and theories from our armchairs 1600 years or more after the fact; quite another to explain why it didn’t quite work out that way in the actual history of the process by which the Church arrived at the present canon.

Protestantism, however, has an inherent a-historical tendency, hence Jason’s assertion that historical “difficulties” are “irrelevant” because now we have archaeology and the Holy Spirit, etc. I suppose that if Jason takes the route of fideism and a-historicism, then that might be construed as his “reply” to my criticisms (not by me, but by some people who are themselves of the same general mindset).

The evidence for the 27 books of the New Testament canon is early, widespread, and specific.

367 (the first complete list, from St. Athanasius) is “early”? The evidence was “widespread and specific” prior to that, yet there were many, many anomalies, as I have outlined, and no one able to “get” what every Protestant with a black leather Bible in his lap “knows” today? This “argument” of Jason’s just gets more and more distant from both historical reality and logic.

In comparison, the alleged evidence for something like the Immaculate Conception or the Assumption of Mary is late and not widespread until even later, and is often vague and highly questionable. To say that the evidence for a collection of first century documents is similar to the evidence for a concept like the Assumption of Mary, which first appears hundreds of years after the time of the apostles in an apocryphal, heretical document, is absurd. It’s spurious to argue that the canon developed in a way comparable to the development of something like the Immaculate Conception or the seven sacraments.

For the 15th time, citing Catholic doctrines and the usual garden-variety objections to them will not overcome alleged internal difficulties of Protestantism. I’ve carefully replied to the numerous charges made, insofar as they were remotely related to the subject matter, and time-permitting (and referred readers to other papers where appropriate). But Jason will not respond to my various arguments which charge that Protestantism is internally-inconsistent.

I think anybody open-mindedly and honestly considering the canon and the issues related to it would have to conclude that the subject is far more problematic for Catholics than for evangelicals.

I submit that the opposite is true, judging by this dialogue . . .

Roman Catholic apologists have repeatedly proven that they don’t even understand the issue, much less can they use it to refute evangelicalism.

Well, we make the same charge towards Protestants, so I can’t fault Jason for the mere charge. I think the record of this present exchange demonstrates that I have given careful answers to Jason’s on-subject arguments, whereas he has not reciprocated. One can only hope that he will in his presumed counter-reply. The record of what has occurred speaks for itself and I believe I have accomplished my task of defending the Catholic position and revealing difficulties in the Protestant one.

V. The Development of the Papacy
*
The papacy is the most important doctrinal development Catholics have to defend.

It’s pretty high up on the list; I agree.

The papacy is the development that’s used to defend other developments that aren’t supported by the historical evidence.

???

A Catholic may not be too concerned when he realizes how historically groundless the Immaculate Conception is if he’s been convinced that the papal authority behind that doctrine is authentic.

As a momentary aside: I don’t see how such an approach of accepting authority without looking into the evidence is all that different from how a Calvinist approaches Calvin’s authority, or an historically-minded Protestant, Luther’s authority in those aspects in which he differs from the Catholic Church. Of course I deny the “groundless” charge.

If the Immaculate Conception isn’t convincing on historical grounds, it’s at least convincing on the basis of papal authority. But what if the papacy is itself an unverifiable development? What if it’s not only unverifiable, but even contrary to the evidence?

What if, indeed?

Dave Armstrong wrote in response to me that “the papacy is explicitly biblical”. That’s a strong claim. It’s also a false claim and an inexplicable one, given that the New Testament doesn’t say anything about Peter having jurisdiction over the other apostles,

It shows him as the preeminent apostle in many ways. See my 50 NT Proofs for Petrine Primacy and the Papacy.

having successors with that same authority,

That is just common sense. Why establish an office (Peter was, in effect, was made the prime minister of the Church by Jesus, as the exegesis of the “keys of the kingdom” establishes – as shown in my last exchange with Jason, with much Protestant support), only to have it cease with the death of Peter. That makes no sense. The very nature of an office is to be carried on; to have a succession. One doesn’t start a business, e.g., with a president, and then after the first president dies, the office ceases to exist and everyone is on their own. His former office is made into a lounge . . .

or Roman bishops exclusively being those successors.

That makes sense too, as Peter was the bishop of Rome, and the Roman See had prominence with both Peter and Paul being martyred there.

In fact, the Bible doesn’t mention Roman bishops at all.

So what? It doesn’t mention the canon or sola Scriptura at all, either. But it certainly does mention bishops and mentions distinct churches. It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to put two and two together.

Most likely, the earliest Roman churches were led by multiple bishops, and none of them were perceived as Popes. I agree with the late Roman Catholic scholar Raymond Brown, writing in his Responses to 101 Questions on the Bible (Mahwah, New Jersey: Paulist Press, 1990):

Obviously, first-century Christians would not have thought in terms of jurisdiction or of many other features that have been associated with the papacy over the centuries. Nor would the Christians of Peter’s lifetime have so totally associated Peter with Rome, since it was probably only in the last years of his life that he came to Rome. Nor would their respect for the church at Rome have been colored by the martyrdom of Peter and Paul there, or by a later history of the Roman church’s preservation of the faith against heresy. (p. 134)

I see no problem with this, as it was very early in the development of the papacy. Cardinal Newman has already ably answered this fatuous charge that the early papacy didn’t exist at all because it was different than today, etc.:

Let us see how, on the principles which I have been laying down and defending, the evidence lies for the Pope’s supremacy.

As to this doctrine the question is this, whether there was not from the first a certain element at work, or in existence, divinely sanctioned, which, for certain reasons, did not at once show itself upon the surface of ecclesiastical affairs, and of which events in the fourth century are the development; and whether the evidence of its existence and operation, which does occur in the earlier centuries, be it much or little, is not just such as ought to occur upon such an hypothesis.

. . . While Apostles were on earth, there was the display neither of Bishop nor Pope; their power had no prominence, as being exercised by Apostles. In course of time, first the power of the Bishop displayed itself, and then the power of the Pope . . .

When the Church, then, was thrown upon her own resources, first local disturbances gave exercise to Bishops,and next ecumenical disturbances gave exercise to Popes; and whether communion with the Pope was necessary for Catholicity would not and could not be debated till a suspension of that communion had actually occurred. It is not a greater difficulty that St. Ignatius does not write to the Asian Greeks about Popes, than that St. Paul does not write to the Corinthians about Bishops. And it is a less difficulty that the Papal supremacy was not formally acknowledged in the second century, than that there was no formal acknowledgment on the part of the Church of the doctrine of the Holy Trinity till the fourth. No doctrine is defined till it is violated . . .

Moreover, an international bond and a common authority could not be consolidated, were it ever so certainly provided, while persecutions lasted. If the Imperial Power checked the development of Councils, it availed also for keeping back the power of the Papacy. The Creed, the Canon, in like manner, both remained undefined. The Creed, the Canon, the Papacy, Ecumenical Councils, all began to form, as soon as the Empire relaxed its tyrannous oppression of the Church. And as it was natural that her monarchical power should display itself when the Empire became Christian, so was it natural also that further developments of that power should take place when that Empire fell . . .

On the whole, supposing the power to be divinely bestowed, yet in the first instance more or less dormant, a history could not be traced out more probable, more suitable to that hypothesis, than the actual course of the controversy which took place age after age upon the Papal supremacy.

It will be said that all this is a theory. Certainly it is: it is a theory to account for facts as they lie in the history, to account for so much being told us about the Papal authority in early times, and not more; a theory to reconcile what is and what is not recorded about it; and, which is the principal point, a theory to connect the words and acts of the Ante-nicene Church with that antecedent probability of a monarchical principle in the Divine Scheme, and that actual exemplification of it in the fourth century, which forms their presumptive interpretation. All depends on the strength of that presumption. Supposing there be otherwise good reason for saying that the Papal Supremacy is part of Christianity, there is nothing in the early history of the Church to contradict it . . .

Moreover, all this must be viewed in the light of the general probability, so much insisted on above, that doctrine cannot but develop as time proceeds and need arises, and that its developments are parts of the Divine system, and that therefore it is lawful, or rather necessary, to interpret the words and deeds of the earlier Church by the determinate teaching of the later. (Essay on the Development of Christian Doctrine, 1878 edition, Univ. of Notre Dame Press, 1989, 148-155; Part 1, Chapter 4, Section 3)

[deleted material about Newman, a Catholic historian, and Tertullian’s writing from his heretical Montanist period]

The Roman church is one apostolic church among others. Its importance is due not to a Divinely appointed papacy, but to practical factors, such as having been the location of the persecution or martyrdom of Peter, Paul, and John. Can you imagine a modern Catholic referring to the Roman church the way Tertullian does above, naming it as one apostolic church among others, recommending that you could consult it if you want to, since you’re geographically close to it?

Yes, because there were many apostolic churches. So what? We think the Orthodox have apostolicity, and they are not in communion with us at all.

The early Roman church was one of the most prominent of all the churches, sometimes even the most prominent. It was prominent, not papal. And it was the Roman church that was prominent early on more than the Roman bishop. (Dismissing Tertullian as a heretic won’t work in this case, since the above quotation is taken from something he wrote before becoming a Montanist, and it’s obvious that he held a positive view of the Roman church when he wrote the above. It’s just that his positive view of the Roman church didn’t have a thing to do with any papacy.)

That is all adequately explained by the Newman citation above, and perfectly consistent with his theory of development and the standard Catholic view of the nature of the developing government of the Church Universal.

. . . I’m familiar with Dave’s list of 50 alleged proofs of Petrine primacy. A lot of them are insignificant, despite his claim to the contrary. If he can see evidence of a papacy in the fact that Jesus preached from Peter’s boat or in the fact that Peter was the first disciple to enter Jesus’ tomb (John got there first, but stopped at the entrance), he has a much lower standard for “proof” than I have.

As I said, Jason is highly encouraged to actually offer reasonable replies to all 50 evidences, as opposed to merely belittling and dismissing them out of hand.

As I said in my first reply to Dave, there are a lot of unique things said or done by or about Peter. But there also are a lot of unique things said or done by or about other apostles. Why is it that when I ask a Catholic apologist whether John being referred to as “the beloved disciple” is evidence of a papal primacy of John, he responds as though the thought never occurred to him?

Probably because this was John’s description of himself. It was a form of humility, in referring to himself, in his Gospel (John 19:26, 20:2, 21:7,20). No one else in the Bible referred to him in that fashion, to my knowledge, but I might be wrong about that.

Why is it that a Catholic apologist can see the unique reference to John in John 21:22, the fact that only John called himself “the elder”, the fact that John lived the longest among the apostles, etc.,

Great age? Gee, that’s a new one on me.

yet never see any papal implications in any of those things?

Well, if Jason works up a list of 50 Biblical Proofs Suggesting that John, Not Peter, Was Pope, I will reply to it, point-by-point, even though Jason won’t grant me that courtesy.

Why can they see Paul publicly rebuking and correcting Peter,

That is perfectly irrelevant, and I addressed it in my paper, “Dialogue: Is St. Paul Superior to St. Peter?”

referring to his authority over all churches, referring to the gospel as “my gospel”, etc., yet not draw any papal conclusions from such things?

Well, for one thing: Paul wasn’t given the keys of the kingdom or chosen by Jesus to be the Rock upon which He chose to build His Church. This was Peter’s role.

Yet, let just about anything unique be said or done by or about Peter and it’s a significant “proof” of Peter being a Pope.

It is a cumulative argument. The main things, far and away, were Jesus’ own words to Peter. That’s where the whole notion originated. It didn’t come from nowhere, or “vain Romish imaginings and wishful thinking.” And that’s a pretty good place to start (with our Lord and Savior Jesus). Jason can mock the paper all he wants. The fair-minded reader who seeks truth may wish to take a look at it and see whether the evidences presented, taken together, are as extremely weak and insignificant as he makes them out to be.

Is it just me, or does referring to your authority over all churches (1 Corinthians 4:17, 7:17, 2 Corinthians 11:28) sound more papal than being the first disciple to walk into Jesus’ tomb after the resurrection?

An apostle certainly does have such authority. Peter exercised plenty of authority, and, e.g., exhorted all the other bishops (1 Peter 5:1), but since Jason has chosen to not reply to my paper, he has basically forfeited that particular argument by refusing to engage it from the outset. My job as an apologist would be a piece of cake if I concluded that all other arguments were without any merit; not even worth spending any time at all on. I could sit on my hands all day and revel in the superiority and unbreakable strength of my own position. That’s very easy.

If, however, Jason wishes to truly be acknowledged as an able apologist and respectable critic of the Catholic viewpoint, he will have to, at some time in the future, decide to engage opponents’ arguments in the depth which is required to qualify as a true, comprehensive rebuttal, as opposed to merely spewing out rhetoric, far too many topic-switching non sequiturs, and subtle mockery. He is even claimed to be an expert on the papacy on the prominent contra-Catholic website where he is now an associate researcher.

But if he refuses to adequately interact with my material (e.g., tons of citations in my last exchange with him, from Protestant scholars on Peter, which he has pretty much ignored in terms of direct interaction), I certainly won’t spend any more of my time in the future interacting with his writing, because I am interested in dialogue, not mutual monologue.

So much of what occurs with Peter is related to his personality. He didn’t open his mouth more often than other people, try to walk on water, cut off Malchus’ ear, etc. because he was a Pope. When he did these things, the disciples apparently had no concept of Peter being their ruler (Luke 22:24). Could Peter’s aggressive, risky behavior have something to do with him having an aggressive, risky personality rather than having to do with him being the Pontifex Maximus and the Vicar of Christ on earth? Could Jesus’ special care for Peter have something to do with him needing it rather than Jesus viewing him as a Pope?

Rock, possessor of the keys of the kingdom . . .

Maybe John didn’t need to have a triple affirmation of his love for Christ (John 21:15-17) because he hadn’t falsely boasted about how he would never betray Christ, only to give a triple denial of Christ shortly thereafter (Mark 14:66-72).

Without doubt this is a parallelism, but that no more proves that Peter wasn’t pope, than David’s sin with Bathsheba and murder of her husband proved that he wasn’t king, or the subject of a covenant with God, or the writer of most of the Psalms. Paul killed Christians before God knocked him off his high horse. So what? What does the fact that a person sins have to do with anything? Isn’t that what Christianity is about? To redeem sinners? If sinners can write an inspired, inerrant, infallible Bible, they can certainly be used as infallible popes as well.

Jesus took a personal, unique approach toward Thomas (John 20:26-29), toward Peter (John 21:15-17), toward John (John 21:22), and toward Paul (Acts 9:3-16). To read papal implications into any of those relationships is absurd.

I agree. Now perhaps Jason can enlighten me as to where I did that?

Peter was obviously the foremost of the 12 disciples, but he fades into the background once Paul comes on the scene. And Peter is the foremost of the 12 disciples even during Jesus’ earthly ministry, when he wasn’t perceived as any sort of Pope (Luke 22:24).

It was a growing understanding, just as the Bible was. The Bible and sola Scriptura are even more central in Protestantism than the papacy is in Catholicism, yet the New Testament wasn’t known in its final form for 300 years, and hence, sola Scriptura couldn’t have been exercised fully in all that time, either (and not by illiterate folks for another 1100 years until the printing press made widespread literature available, and widespread literacy was finally achieved). If that doesn’t sink Jason’s position, then a slowly-growing understanding of the papacy doesn’t sink ours.

Even before Matthew 16 was spoken, we see Peter as unique among the disciples in some ways. To attribute these things to a papal primacy is speculative and irrational.

I don’t see how that follows. Once one admits that Peter was the leader of the apostles, then that is perfectly consistent with our argument that this is an indication that he would be the leader of the Church Universal.

. . . It’s possible that the First Vatican Council meant what Dave thinks it meant, but the context suggests otherwise. If the papacy is a “clear doctrine of Holy Scripture”, as the First Vatican Council calls it, and is “explicitly biblical”, as Dave calls it, where are we to see that if not in passages like Matthew 16 and John 21? If it’s not clear and explicit there, where is it? In Jesus preaching from Peter’s boat? In Peter being the only disciple to try to walk on water?

It certainly is clear in Matthew 16. I gave a host of exegetical arguments in our last exchange, but Jason refuses to interact with them. So this is not a dialogue, as far as I am concerned. I decided to answer his reply, because he is the only person I am aware of who had produced a response to one of my papers that I hadn’t counter-replied to (it is my policy to always do so). But I won’t reply again unless my material is directly interacted with.

If the church fathers didn’t see a papacy in passages like Matthew 16 and John 21, where did they see it?

They saw it. It took a little time, just like the canon and trinitarianism and Mariology did. Faith alone and imputed, forensic justification took a lot of time, too, didn’t they? Protestant scholars Norman Geisler and Alister McGrath both essentially admit that such doctrines were absent from the Christian Church between the time of Paul and Luther (the same is certainly true of a symbolic Eucharist and baptism, and many other novel Protestant doctrines).

1500 years for one of the pillars of Protestantism to be understood as the “plain” teaching in Scripture that it is claimed to be? That has a full development and understanding of the papacy beat by a good 900 years (if we date the fully-developed papacy from Pope Gregory the Great’s reign (590-604). Yet Jason is quibbling about the short timespan of two or three centuries? This is what I call “log-in-the-eye disease.”

We know that the early post-apostolic writers admired the Roman church for its faith, its love and generosity, Peter and Paul having been martyred there, etc. But they don’t say anything about the Roman bishop being a Pope. Is Dave going to argue that they believed in a papacy without mentioning it, and that they believed in it for reasons that are unknown to us today? If they didn’t believe in it because of what’s described in Matthew 16, John 21, etc., why did they believe in it? (Dave can give me some speculations if he wants to, but I would prefer something he can document.)

I will stand by the Newman quote above. As for “documentation,” I gave a great number of exegetical arguments previously, citing mostly Protestant Bible scholars. Jason has seen fit to ignore almost all of that, for some strange, curious reason. Why should I do any more work for his sake? It’s all there. He may not be convinced, but many more people will be, due to the blessing of the Internet.

In his reply to me, Dave spent a lot of effort documenting that most modern Protestant scholars view Peter as “this rock” in Matthew 16. I agree with his perception of a scholarly consensus on the issue. That’s my perception also, though I haven’t done any counting. One of the reasons why I wouldn’t make the effort to count is because of how irrelevant the issue is. The fact that so many non-Catholics can view Peter as “this rock”, yet not arrive at the doctrine of the papacy, should tell Dave something. The doctrine just isn’t taught in Matthew 16, even if you conclude that Peter is “this rock”. Where do you get concepts such as authority over the other apostles, successors, Roman bishops, etc., even with Peter being “this rock”?

Jason misses the point. As it is a cumulative argument, showing that the consensus today is that Peter was the Rock is one aspect of that. It isn’t the whole ball of wax. We also show what was meant by having the keys of the kingdom, etc. We support our positions one-by-one and then conclude that the evidence is strong. It is irrelevant whether the scholars cited accept the papacy or not. If anything, they are important as “witnesses” for our biblical “case” precisely because they are ultimately “hostile” witnesses, who cannot be accused of Catholic bias.

Dave tried to make a lot out of the keys of Matthew 16:19, far more than the text itself says. I address the issue of the keys in my debate with Mark Bonocore See specifically the Opening Remarks and Rebuttal sections. To summarize here, I’ll point out that the scriptures repeatedly associate keys with binding/loosing and opening/shutting. To try to separate these things, as though Peter is being given one power in Matthew 16 and the other disciples are being given some lower power in Matthew 18, is spurious. Nobody would argue that there was some power Jesus didn’t have in Revelation 1:18, just because keys are mentioned without reference to binding/loosing, opening/shutting. It goes without saying that Jesus had those latter powers if He possessed the keys.

Likewise, if you have the latter powers, it goes without saying that you have the keys. They’re all part of the same imagery. Thus, in Matthew 23 we see the religious leaders of Israel criticized for abusing the power of opening and shutting, whereas the parallel passage in Luke 11 criticizes them for abusing the power of a key. (Notice also that these religious leaders could have a key without having unique papal authority. To equate “authority” with “papal authority” is fallacious.) I address Isaiah 22 and some other issues related to the imagery of keys in my debate with Mark Bonocore. The reader can consult my comments in that debate if he’s interested in reading more about my views on this subject.

Well, good. I’m delighted to hear that Jason has done some in-depth exegesis of the passages. I still contend that it is significant that Peter as an individual was given the power to bind and loose, whereas the other disciples received it corporately. To me that signifies a leadership or preeminence. That is the Hebrew and biblical mindset. He is also given the keys of the kingdom, which cannot be without great import. And no one else is called the Rock, upon which Jesus builds His Church. There is no way out of that uniqueness. We agree that others bind and loose as well (they even “loose” the pope from sin, as he regularly confesses his sins to another priest). Bishops and priests also have granted prerogatives from God.

Even if we assume that Peter is “this rock”, and that the keys of Matthew 16 were unique to him, we’re still far from a papacy. Peter could be unique without being uniquely a Pope. He could have fulfilled Matthew 16 by his unique role at Pentecost, for example. In fact, that’s how some of the earliest interpretations of Matthew 16 saw the passage.

It is clear that no biblical indications will suffice. Jason doesn’t want to believe this doctrine, so he will not. At the same time, he is quite content to accept the myth and pipe-dream of sola Scriptura, which is nowhere taught in Scripture, and the 27 New Testament books. He accepts those things as axioms, with no biblical evidence whatever, yet is hyper-skeptical and never satisfied with the many biblical arguments which can be adduced for the papacy. It is a very odd phenomenon, which fascinates me to no end.

Speaking of the earliest interpretations, the reader ought to ask himself why Dave focused so much on modern scholarly consensus about Matthew 16 rather than church father consensus.

Because they were “hostile witnesses,” and because, formerly, Protestant scholars often took a diametrically opposed position. Why shouldn’t I focus on this? Is Jason opposed to modern conservative Protestant biblical scholarship?

The most popular interpretation of “this rock” among the church fathers was that Peter’s faith is the “rock”.

It was both. This understanding developed, just as the papacy itself did. No big deal.

The Protestant historian Oscar Cullmann explains that the interpretation of Matthew 16 advocated by the Protestant reformers:

was not first invented for their struggle against the papacy; it rests upon an older patristic [church father] tradition (Peter: Disciple – Apostle – Martyr [Philadelphia, Pennsylvania: Westminster, 1953], p. 162)

This makes sense to me. Protestants, having chucked huge elements of the historic faith arbitrarily, would reasonably be expected to hearken back to the earliest centuries, before all the developments which they loathe had taken place. That gets back to the sort of anti-incarnational a-historicism, so typical of Protestant thought.

Even among the church fathers who saw Peter as “this rock”, assuming that they therefore believed in a papacy is bad reasoning. For example, Origen saw Peter as “this rock”. He was one of the most influential of the early church leaders, as well as one of the most prolific, having authored thousands of works. Yet, as Catholic historian Robert Eno explains, “a plain recognition of Roman primacy or of a connection between Peter and the contemporary bishop of Rome seems remote from Origen’s thoughts” (The Rise of the Papacy [Wilmington, Delaware: Michael Glazier, 1990], p. 43). Here’s Origen commenting on Matthew 16:

And if we too have said like Peter, “Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God,” not as if flesh and blood had revealed it unto us,  but by light from the Father in heaven having shone in our heart, we become a Peter, and to us there might be said by the Word, “Thou art Peter,” etc. For a rock is every disciple of Christ of whom those drank who drank of the spiritual rock which followed them, and upon every such rock is built every word of the church, and the polity in accordance with it; for in each of the perfect, who have the combination of words and deeds and thoughts which fill up the blessedness, is the church built by God. But if you suppose upon the one Peter only the whole church is built by God, what would you say about John the son of thunder or each one of the Apostles? Shall we otherwise dare to say, that against Peter in particular the gates of Hades shall not prevail, but that they shall prevail against the other Apostles and the perfect? Does not the saying previously made, “The gates of Hades shall not prevail against it,” hold in regard to all and in the case of each of them? And also the saying, “Upon this rock I will build My church”? (Commentary on Matthew, 10-11)

The same Origen also wrote:

Peter, upon whom is built the Church of Christ . . . (Commentaries on John, 5,3)

Look at the great foundation of the Church, that most solid of rocks, upon whom Christ built the Church! (Homilies on Exodus, 5,4)

The two sentiments are not necessarily mutually-exclusive. Origen might be emphasizing the collegiality of the Church in the one statement, and the Head of the Church in the other. Catholics believe in both, so this is no problem for us. Remember Vatican II? Remember the Council of Trent?

Do you see how irrelevant it is to say that a church father viewed Peter as “this rock”?

No.

Even if he did, that doesn’t equate to belief in a papacy. And the most popular view of “this rock” among the church fathers was to see it as Peter’s faith, not as Peter himself. The earliest interpretations (Tertullian, Origen, Cyprian, Firmilian, etc.) were either non-papal or anti-papal.

So what? Why does Jason expect to see everything early in Church history? Why cannot he see that development doesn’t require that? The canon, as always, is the thorn in the Protestant’s flesh, revealing the double standards applied to these discussions.

[deleted assertions by Jason and the liberal Catholic historian that St. Augustine was a conciliarist rather than a “papalist”]

Are we really to believe that the bishop of Rome was by Divine appointment the standard of orthodoxy, the Vicar of Christ, the ruler of all Christians on earth, yet people like Paul, Tertullian, Origen, and Augustine never mentioned it? They even denied it?

Are we really to believe that the 27 books of the New Testament were by Divine appointment the standard of orthodoxy and the rule of faith, the Word of Christ, the final authority of all Christians on earth, yet people like Paul, Tertullian, and Origen never mentioned them all together, with no other books? They even denied the canonicity of some of the New Testament books?

I know Dave believes that a doctrine can be true even if some church fathers don’t mention it or reject it, but doesn’t it stretch credibility way beyond the breaking point to argue that people like Origen and Augustine, in hundreds of works spanning thousands of pages, would not only not mention a papacy, but even contradict the concept? (I know that Augustine’s Letter 53 might be cited here by some Catholic apologists, but Augustine is addressing something that specifically happened in Rome. In that context, what Petrine successors would you expect him to mention? The ones in Antioch? We know from other passages in Augustine’s writings that he considered all bishops to be successors of Peter.)

Alright; enough of this nonsense that St. Augustine had a weak view of the papacy at best:

If the very order of episcopal succession is to be considered, how much more surely, truly, and safely do we number them from Peter himself, to whom, as to one representing the whole Church, the Lord said: Upon this rock I will build My Church, and the gates of hell shall not conquer it. Peter was succeeded by Linus, Linus by Clement, Clement by Anacletus, Anacletus by Evaristus . . .(Letter to Generosus, 53, 1, 2 [c.400] )

The succession of priests, from the very see of the Apostle Peter, to whom our Lord, after His resurrection, gave the charge of feeding His sheep, up to the present episcopate, keeps me here [in the Catholic Church]. (Against the Letter of Mani Called The Foundation, 4,5 [written in 397] )

Protestant historian J. N .D. Kelly states:

[Augustine] . . . regarded St. Peter as the representative or symbol of the unity of the Church and of the apostolic college, and also as the apostle upon whom the primacy was bestowed (even so, he was a type of the Church as a whole). This the Roman Church, the seat of St. Peter, ‘to whom the Lord after His resurrection entrusted the feeding of His sheep’ [C. ep. fund. 5], was for him the church ‘in which the primacy (‘principatus’) of the apostolic chair has ever flourished’ [Ep. 43,7]. The three letters [Epp. 175-177] relating to Pelagianism which the African church sent to Innocent I in 416, and of which Augustine was draughtsman, suggested that he attributed to the Pope a pastoral and teaching authority extending over the whole Church, and found a basis for it in Scripture. At the same time there is no evidence that he was prepared to ascribe to the bishop of Rome, in his capacity as successor of St. Peter, a sovereign and infallible doctrinal magisterium. (Early Christian Doctrines, San Francisco: HarperCollins, rev. ed., 1978, 419)

This is perfectly in accord with what we would expect at that time, in that period of development.

Would the office of the papacy be the sort of thing that people like Paul, Clement of Alexandria, Origen, etc. wouldn’t mention, even when specifically addressing all sorts of matters of church government and doctrine?

Would the 27-book canon of the New Testament be the sort of thing that people like Paul, Clement of Alexandria, Origen, etc. wouldn’t mention, even when specifically addressing all sorts of matters of church government and doctrine?

I think Dave, along with conservative Roman Catholic apologists in general, has taken the development of doctrine argument much further than it can credibly go. The doctrine of the papacy as cited as the development that authenticates all other Roman Catholic developments. But the development of the papacy itself is spurious.

Dave, in his original article that I responded to, quoted Cardinal Newman saying that the acceptance of the papacy as a valid development depends on the assumption that God wants a monarchical form of church government. In other words, you have to assume the Divine intention for a papal office in order to see the development of such an office as authoritative. But as I explained in my first response to Dave, not only is such an assumption speculative, but it’s also contrary to how God carried things out during the Old Testament era, and it’s contrary to what Jesus and Paul teach in Luke 9:49-50 and Romans 11, respectively.

To refer to organizational unity not being necessary (Luke 9:49-50) and to refer to God working through independent remnants (Romans 11) isn’t consistent with the claim of conservative Catholic apologists about how everybody should belong to one organizational structure headed by a Pope. There’s to be one faith, not one denomination (Ephesians 4:5). Cardinal Newman and others may like the idea of one worldwide denominational structure that everybody belongs to, that has all of the authority the Roman Catholic Church claims to have, but such a philosophical preference (Colossians 2:8) doesn’t weigh as much as the historical facts that are against it.

I think I’ve more than sufficiently documented that modern Roman Catholic claims about development of doctrine are unverifiable, sometimes contrary to what the Catholic Church has taught, and sometimes contrary to the facts of history. What seems to be at the heart of these Catholic arguments isn’t a concern for truth as much as a concern for a philosophical ideal that Catholic apologists want to exist, an ideal expressed in an institution that can do everything from infallibly interpreting the scriptures for you to administering a system of sacramental salvation. I think Roman Catholicism is one of the worst examples the world has ever seen of just what Jesus and Paul were warning against in Matthew 15:9 and Colossians 2:8.

Sometimes getting what we want, or thinking we’re getting what we want, isn’t good. Our desires might be misguided, or we may be pursuing a good intention in the wrong place . . .

*****

(originally posted on 2-26-02)

Photo credit: Christ’s Charge to Peter (1515), by Raphael (1483-1520) [public domain / Wikimedia Commons]

*****

2020-02-12T11:59:25-04:00

Debate with Five Atheists. Are Christian Women Abused as “Sheep”?

This is an exchange I had on a semi-private discussion list (starting on 31 August 2010), connected with an atheist group that I was invited to (I’ve attended in-person, twice) and one I have been interacting with in writing. A thread began, where negative comments were made about the Bible and Christian women. I chimed in, and of course it was off to the dog races, then. Very little actual dialogue occurred, and I vociferously complain about that later in the dialogue. But assuredly there is a lot of substance and food for thought.

I don’t name any names, provide no link to the original thread, and have asked permission to post this, stating that if anyone didn’t want their words to be part of this, to just say so and that I would be glad to comply. But this amazing exchange is not to be missed.

Color Code:

Woman #1: words in orange

Woman #2: red

Woman #3: blue

Man #1 (head of the group): green

Man #2: purple

Me: black

* * * * *

I also had an idea you could also present (if you had not already). I know its a mostly men group, but it amazes me so many women are Christians but are treated so badly in the bible…Just an idea to do a study on how women are treated in the Bible.
* * *
Women are always second class citizens in the bible. It is probably one of the reasons many educated women steer clear of it. I have not studied religion to a great degree other than being raised Catholic. The old time nuns cured me of any religious interest ;-) Fear, punishment, retribution are things I try to avoid. I suppose one of the reasons women are viewed in such a lowly position is a sign of the times the bible was written in. Women only received the right to vote in the good old USA less than 100 years ago. I used to be viewed as property of my husband’s…..can’t even imagine that. Thank god/allah/buddha for the fearless women that went before me!!!!
* * *

Women are always second class citizens in the bible.

Really? Funny, I hadn’t noticed that after 33 years of intense Bible study. The Bible I read has Paul stating that there is no male or female in Christ. Husbands are to honor their wives and love them like Christ loved the Church (i.e., He died for us). The Bible I read shows women with great courage, being at the crucifixion, while all the male disciples except for John, were a bunch of wimps and cowards, and fled in terror (Peter having denied that he even knew Christ). Mary Magdalene was the first to see the risen Christ, and several women were in the forefront of that event, too, while the men were slow to believe. Jesus saved a woman from being stoned for adultery, on the grounds that her sin was not — in the final analysis — greater than anyone else’s. Even Rahab the harlot is honored, because she helped the Israelite spies. Jesus greatly honored the woman who wiped His feet with her tears and rebuked his male host.

Mary the mother of Jesus is, in fact, the very highest of all God’s creatures: far higher than any man. We Catholics believe she is sinless and immaculate (preserved from original sin from the moment of her conception; Martin Luther, the founder of Protestantism, actually believed the same thing, too). She is so exalted that Catholics are falsely accused of worshiping her all the time (we venerate her, which is essentially a high honor, but not worship). I am working on a book about Mary this very day. Catholics believe that God even channels the grace of salvation through Mary. Many other women are treated with great dignity and honor (e.g., Judith, Esther).

“Liberated” women have really come a long way recently, haven’t they? They learned to smoke like men, and started dying of lung cancer at the same rate that men died. Real liberation there. Now they have accepted men’s selfish lies about abortion and have learned to slaughter their own offspring before they can even get out of the womb, and call that outrage a “choice” and a “right.” Real progress there too.

The Bible, in elevating marriage to a lifelong commitment and a sacrament, protected women from much abuse. But now we have gone beyond all that. Now we are liberated and see women as sex objects and mere playthings that can be jettisoned if they are too old or undesirable. That is what our wonderful sexual revolution has brought us. Generally, it is women who suffer to a much greater extent economically after divorce (along with children). We know that; there is no question about it. It is the “puritanical” Christians who are in the forefront of the fight against pornography: the very thing that promotes these views. But the secular society thinks pornography is great: everyone has a right to indulge in it. Anyone who protests is a prude and opposed to “free speech.”

I’ll take the biblical and Christian view of women any day, thank you.

I have not studied religion to a great degree

Yeah, I can see that. Why, then, do you feel confident making uninformed statements about the supposed low biblical view of women? That is what I find quite odd and curious: the simultaneous admission of profound ignorance with, nevertheless, confident statements about what the Bible (that one has never studied much) teaches.

I used to be viewed as property of my husband’s…..can’t even imagine that.

That’s not what the Bible teaches. A lot of stupid, selfish men may have thought that, but it isn’t biblical teaching. You object to that (biblical) myth; why not also object to women regarding their own preborn children as their property, to dispose of as they wish? It’s gotten so absurd that the child is even thought to be part of the woman’s body, despite having separate DNA and (in the case of a male child) a penis. The father has no legal say at all in the life of his own child. And that is because in our mentality today, the mother “owns” the child as property: precisely as slavery functioned. The child has no rights whatever. It is even denied that he or she is a person. So the outrages and the genocide of our time are ignored, while we war against a mythical straw man “Christianity” of our own making.

You wanna go after the Bible and Christianity? There is plenty in our own secularized, “enlightened” time to critique also. But I have told the truth about that. I didn’t have to distort the facts. They are all around us: broken homes and broken women and children, and men (equally broken) reaping the dire consequences insofar as they reject traditional teachings on marriage, sexuality, and childrearing.

You wanna go down in inner-city Detroit (where I grew up) and see what the sexual revolution and the “Great Society” has done to families down there? Is that to be blamed on Christianity, too: that illegitimacy is now 75% or so and single-parent families are the overwhelming norm? We’re the ones who promoted marriage and waiting to have sex till marriage. Society wanted to reject that; so check out what is going on in the cities now to see how well secular ideas and the rejection of traditional religious morality have worked out. That’s the cutting edge.

* * *

Religion and holy books were created by MEN to control various sections of the population including women. It’s very amusing to see religious women act like sheep even in this day and age. Here are some priceless Bible quotes regarding women:

“And the daughter of any priest, if she profane herself by playing the whore, she profaneth her father: she shall be burnt with fire.” (Leviticus 21:9)

“When men strive together one with another, and the wife of the one draweth near for to deliver her husband out of the hand of him that smiteth him, and putteth forth her hand, and taketh him by the secrets: then thou shalt cut off her hand, thine eye shall not pity her.” (Deuteronomy 25:11-12)

“Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, If a woman have conceived seed, and born a man child: then she shall be unclean seven days; according to the days of the separation for her infirmity shall she be unclean.” (Leviticus 12:2)

“But if she bear a maid child, then she shall be unclean two weeks, as in her separation: and she shall continue in the blood of her purifying threescore and six days.” (Leviticus 12:5)

“But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.” (I Corinthians 11:3)

“For the man is not of the woman; but the woman of the man. Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man.” (I Corinthians 11:8-9)

“Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds. And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.” (Revelation 2:22-23)

“Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live. Whoever lieth with a beast shall surely be put to death. He that sacrificeth unto any god, save to the LORD only, he shall be utterly destroyed.” (Exodus 22:18-20)

“Behold, here is my daughter a maiden, and his concubine; them I will bring out now, and humble ye them, and do with them what seemeth good unto you: but unto this man do not so vile a thing. But the men would not hearken to him: so the man took his concubine, and brought her forth unto them; and they knew her, and abused her all the night until the morning: and when the day began to spring, they let her go.” (Judges 19:24-25)

“Let the women learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.” (I Timothy 2:11-14)

“If a man be found lying with a woman married to an husband, and a man find her in the city, and lie with her;” (Deuteronomy 22:22)

“Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel, because she cried not, being in the city; and the man, because he hath humbled his neighbour’s wife: so thou shalt put away evil from among you.” (Deuteronomy 22:24)

“Therefore the LORD himself shall give you a sign: Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.” (Isaiah 7:14)

“If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found; Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel’s father fifty shekels of silvers, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days.” (Deuteronomy 22:28-29)

“Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in everything.” (Ephesians 5:22-24)

“Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.” (I Corinthians 14:34-35)

“Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.” (Genesis 3:16)

“Samaria shall become desolate; for she hath rebelled against her God: they shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up.” (Hosea 13:16)

“Give me any plague, but the plague of the heart: and any wickedness, but the wickedness of a woman.” (Eccles. 25:13)

“Of the woman came the beginning of sin, and through her we all die.” (Eccles. 25:22)

“If she go not as thou wouldest have her, cut her off from thy flesh, and give her a bill of divorce, and let her go.” (Eccles. 25: 26)

“The whoredom of a woman may be known in her haughty looks and eyelids. If thy daughter be shameless, keep her in straitly, lest she abuse herself through overmuch liberty.” (Eccles. 26:9-10)

“A silent and loving woman is a gift of the Lord: and there is nothing so much worth as a mind well instructed. A shamefaced and faithful woman is a double grace, and her continent mind cannot be valued.” (Eccles. 26:14-15)

“A shameless woman shall be counted as a dog; but she that is shamefaced will fear the Lord.” (Eccles.26:25)

“For from garments cometh a moth, and from women wickedness. Better is the churlishness of a man than a courteous woman, a woman, I say, which bringeth shame and reproach.” (Eccles. 42:13-14)

* * *

Thank god/allah/buddha for the fearless women that went before me!!!!

And, of course, the early feminists, like Elizabeth Cady Stanton and Susan B. Anthony (just like most of the abolitionists), were Christians of some sort, and pro-lifers also. Ironically, though, Stanton, while campaigning for woman’s suffrage, early on wanted to oppose black men having the right to vote. Everyone has their blind spots . . . But Stanton made the same general analogy to abortion that I made above:

When we consider that women are treated as property, it is degrading to women that we should treat our children as property to be disposed of as we see fit.

(Letter to Julia Ward Howe, October 16, 1873, recorded in Howe’s diary at Harvard University Library)

Susan B. Anthony referred to abortion as “child murder.”

* * *

Well, Dave it is your lucky day! I am one of the few atheists out there that are going to agree with you on the Pro-life issue, although for a slightly different set of reasons. Abortion is not a matter of “choice” and it is indeed child murder and the worst form of violence a human can commit . A woman has choice in weather or not she has unprotected sex and if she makes a ‘choice’ at that point she should be ready for the consequences such as pregnancy.

The arguments such as ‘it is not life unless it can survive on its own’ do not make any logical sense because fetuses can not protect themselves especially from their own mothers. And abortion is against evolution/nature. You don’t eat/kill your own and still expect your genes to survive and flourish.

I am not talking about the extreme cases of mother’s life in danger, rape and incest type of situations but the more general use of abortion that liberals intend to use it for…….. as a method of contraception. One thing that puzzles me the most is why and how this issue became a Left or Right and heavily politicized aspect of American life.

* * *

Bravo, [name]. That was a magnificent statement about abortion. I remember you and [name; group leader] saying you were pro-life, and I was delighted to hear it.

Generally, when I argue against abortion, I don’t quote the Bible, and use reasoning much as you have done. In fact, I actually did that in a courtroom once when I and many others were on trial for blocking abortion clinic doors. In my little speech I appealed to ancient pagan Greek ethics and Hippocrates (the father of medicine) and said that the debate goes far beyond religion and Christian views.

I spent one night in a nice jail . . . . we were sentenced to a week, but they let me out in the morning. That was my entire punishment for five arrests and about 25 times breaking the law in civil disobedience.

* * *

To take one example from the laundry list (and unfortunately I have to get back to my regular work at the moment):

“Of the woman came the beginning of sin, and through her we all die.” (Eccles. 25:22)

But whoever came up with this chart forgot to include these passages also:

Romans 5:14 Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sins were not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come.

1 Corinthians 15:21-22 For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead. [22] For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.

And we Catholics believe that Mary was the means for the incarnation to be possible, which made salvation possible, and that God channels the grace of salvation through her. If that is “anti-woman” then let me proudly be part of that thinking!

At some point when I have time I’d love to explore the other passages and comment on them. It takes a ton of work and labor to interpret things properly in context and in light of overall biblical teaching (which also develops over time as well). It’s a lot like the alleged biblical contradictions thing. A million passages are thrown out: copied from some atheist (or otherwise skeptical) source. It takes ten times more labor and time to refute them (and to no avail anyway; the atheist generally disdains any such effort and simply moves on to other arguments). But I’ve done it in the past and will do so again. Only so many hours in a day . . .

Many turn out like the “prooftext” above did. By selectively citing the passage above about Eve and neglecting cross-references about Adam, a distorted picture is given. I knew this immediately, because I know the Bible, and I know this was not the whole picture.

And by the way, the very reference was incorrect. It is Ecclesiasticus (or Sirach) 25:24, not 25:22. The same book (typical of Jewish proverbial literature) also praises “the good wife” starting three verses later (26:1-4, 13-16).

* * *

Just one more before I go (couldn’t resist):

“And the daughter of any priest, if she profane herself by playing the whore, she profaneth her father: she shall be burnt with fire.” (Leviticus 21:9)

Nice try. Of course, men get burnt, too. Here are examples:

Leviticus 20:14 If a man takes a wife and her mother also, it is wickedness; they shall be burned with fire, both he and they, that there may be no wickedness among you. [this one occurred just 22 verses earlier than the one above, but damn the context . . . ]

Joshua 7:15, 24-25 And he who is taken with the devoted things shall be burned with fire, he and all that he has, because he has transgressed the covenant of the LORD, and because he has done a shameful thing in Israel. . . . And Joshua and all Israel with him took Achan the son of Zerah, and the silver and the mantle and the bar of gold, and his sons and daughters, and his oxen and asses and sheep, and his tent, and all that he had; and they brought them up to the Valley of Achor. [25] And Joshua said, “Why did you bring trouble on us? The LORD brings trouble on you today.” And all Israel stoned him with stones; they burned them with fire, and stoned them with stones.

Stoning was also an “equal opportunity” punishment.

The only burning females in “Christian” society today (with full consent of the law and the people) are the preborn female children (about one in two) who are scalded to death by saline abortions. But we would rather talk selectively about ancient punishments . . .

* * *

Getting back to some of the “shock-quotes” from the Bible:

“When men strive together one with another, and the wife of the one draweth near for to deliver her husband out of the hand of him that smiteth him, and putteth forth her hand, and taketh him by the secrets: then thou shalt cut off her hand, thine eye shall not pity her.” (Deuteronomy 25:11-12)

An odd passage to be sure. But the claim above (now made by three women) is that the Bible is anti-woman through and through. If that is so, then why is the law against adultery and fornication (when men commit it) so strict? If it was really about letting men do whatever they want and only punishing women for free sex (the old double standard) then why is there a Leviticus chapter 18 at all? It’s almost solely devoted to blasting men who want to have sex with everyone under the sun except their wives:

1) Mother (18:7-8).
2) Sister (18:9, 11).
3) Granddaughter (18:10).
4) Aunt (18:12-14).
5) Daughter-in-law (18:15).
6) Sister-in-law (18:16, 18: “rival wife to her sister”).
7) Any kinswoman and her daughter (18:17).
8) Kinswomen’s granddaughters (18:17).
9) Neighbor’s wife (18:20).
10) Male homosexual sex (18:22).
11) Bestiality (of a man or a woman: 18:23).

The punishment for any of these transgressions is stated in 18:29: “For whoever shall do any of these abominations, the persons that do them shall be cut off from among their people.”

* * *

“Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, If a woman have conceived seed, and born a man child: then she shall be unclean seven days; according to the days of the separation for her infirmity shall she be unclean.” (Leviticus 12:2)

“But if she bear a maid child, then she shall be unclean two weeks, as in her separation: and she shall continue in the blood of her purifying threescore and six days.” (Leviticus 12:5)

This was a matter of ritual cleanliness or purification, or the ceremonial law. Why was there a difference for the period of “uncleanness” with regard to bearing male and female children? One explanation is that the male children were circumcised on the eighth day (Gen 17:12): another matter of purification and the ritual of the law. The female children were not; therefore, the mother underwent purification longer than for the birth of a male child.

Purification does not directly or intrinsically have to do with sin. Jesus Himself underwent ritual purification when He went to the temple, and He was also baptized, even though He was without sin and had no need of it whatever. He did it because it was an accepted ritual according to Jewish Law. Mary did various ceremonies, too, even though we Catholics believe she never sinned, either and was preserved even from original sin.

* * *

“But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.” (I Corinthians 11:3)

Headship is not a matter of inequality but of differential roles. Jesus was subject to His father in a sense (“the head of Christ is God”: meaning God the Father, since Jesus is also presented as God in the NT), yet they were equal: both were God. He was even subject to Joseph and Mary as a child: yet they were creatures and He was God. There is no basis for inequality in this, let alone domination or subjugation. The entire teaching is a very beautiful thing:

Ephesians 5:25, 28-30 Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, . . . [28] Even so husbands should love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. [29] For no man ever hates his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, as Christ does the church, [30] because we are members of his body.

A friend of mine has a cute saying with reference to men who are stupid and dense enough to say something to their wives like “submit, woman!” He says that, according to the Bible, the wife is completely within her rights to say back to him, “get crucified, buddy!”

The wife is told simply to respect the husband and be in a certain submission to him. But the husband has to love his wife like Christ loved the Church, meaning that he has to die for her and cherish her as he does himself. This is far more difficult and more of a burden and responsibility. Inequality? I don’t see it, but if there was any present here, I submit that it is more plausible to say that the man is being treated “unfairly” since he is given a far greater burden in marriage, and a sublime goal to attain.

* * *

“Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds. And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.” (Revelation 2:22-23)

This is simply dumb exegesis, if it is supposedly some proof of chauvinism and oppression of women, because the passage is metaphorical in the first place, or an instance of personification. Jezebel had been dead for centuries. Her name was used because the Jews understood her sort of sin. The warnings were for the the church in Thyati’ra. The judgment is not solely for women (I highly doubt that this church consisted solely of women), but men and women who sin in this fashion. Hence, even the passage itself indicates this in 2:23: “I will give to each of you as your works deserve” (RSV).

“Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live. Whoever lieth with a beast shall surely be put to death. He that sacrificeth unto any god, save to the LORD only, he shall be utterly destroyed.” (Exodus 22:18-20)

Bestiality and idolatry here applied to both sexes, so we are left with the death penalty against witches (females). But this is no big deal because lots of categories were subject to death or severe penalties (necromancers, sorcerers, [mostly male] false prophets, etc.): not just women, by any means:

Deuteronomy 18:10-12 There shall not be found among you any one who burns his son or his daughter as an offering, any one who practices divination, a soothsayer, or an augur, or a sorcerer, [11] or a charmer, or a medium, or a wizard, or a necromancer. [12] For whoever does these things is an abomination to the LORD; and because of these abominable practices the LORD your God is driving them out before you.

Malachi 3:5 Then I will draw near to you for judgment; I will be a swift witness against the sorcerers, against the adulterers, against those who swear falsely, against those who oppress the hireling in his wages, the widow and the orphan, against those who thrust aside the sojourner, and do not fear me, says the LORD of hosts.

Revelation 21:8 But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the polluted, as for murderers, fornicators, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their lot shall be in the lake that burns with fire and sulphur, which is the second death.

Revelation 22:15 Outside are the dogs and sorcerers and fornicators and murderers and idolaters, and every one who loves and practices falsehood.

In fact, four verses later, the death penalty is applied to men only:

Exodus 22:22-24 You shall not afflict any widow or orphan. [23] If you do afflict them, and they cry out to me, I will surely hear their cry; [24] and my wrath will burn, and I will kill you with the sword, and your wives shall become widows and your children fatherless.

And elsewhere in the law, mediums and wizards, whether male or female, were to be stoned:

Leviticus 20:27 A man or a woman who is a medium or a wizard shall be put to death; they shall be stoned with stones, their blood shall be upon them.

“If a man be found lying with a woman married to an husband, and a man find her in the city, and lie with her;” (Deuteronomy 22:22)

“Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel, because she cried not, being in the city; and the man, because he hath humbled his neighbour’s wife: so thou shalt put away evil from among you.” (Deuteronomy 22:24)

How is this “against women,” since both the man and the woman are stoned for the adultery? This is a married woman, so the woman is expected to scream for help. Her not doing so implied consent; therefore she was deemed guilty of adultery.

* * *

The Bible is not particularly sexist against women—it is a product of its times. When the prevailing Israelites took 32,000 female virgins as booty [pun definitely intended] in a war (Numbers 31) —this was not a slam against women per se…it was simply recognition of how things were done.

Captured people became slaves.

When the author of 1 Timothy was prohibiting women from wearing gold, it was a reflection of what it meant for a woman to wear gold in that culture. 1 Tim. 2:9. Similarly, when Paul (1 Cor. 14:34-35) indicated he didn’t want women to speak in church, this reflected his Roman preference of a woman’s place in assembly.

The problem, of course, is when someone holds these writings as providing some prescription on our society, some 2000 years later, that we see conflict appear. Unfortunately there have been many, many people who have successfully utilized these ancient cultural norms to exert power over other people—including females.

* * *
There is another humorous irony here that I can’t resist pointing out. Note that this thread began with three women bashing not only the Bible as a supposedly chauvinist, misogynist, sexist, anti-female set of documents, but (far beyond that) also bashing some one billion or so Christian women, in the most sweeping terms:

“it amazes me so many women are Christians but are treated so badly in the bible”

“Women are always second class citizens in the bible. It is probably one of the reasons many educated women steer clear of it.”

“Religion and holy books were created by MEN to control various sections of the population including women. It’s very amusing to see religious women act like sheep even in this day and age.”

[Name] even made the accusation far more broad, and extended it to virtually all religious women of any sort (so that the total number of women being criticized is in the several billions). At least [name] made some sort of qualification (but not much of one in context).

So we have the amazing spectacle and irony of toleration and equality being touted in the name of intolerance and looking down female noses at one billion (or several billion) women! In falsely condemning Christianity on an altogether flimsy basis, y’all end up committing the same exact shortcoming that you condemn: you look down on a billion (or billions) of women at the same time you excoriate religion for supposedly doing so.

Thus, here I am, a male practitioner and follower of one such holy book (the Bible) that is unjustly accused of being so anti-female, defending a billion (or billions) of women from the outlandish charges being leveled against them by three “enlightened” women: that they are gullible dumbbells who don’t know any better; sheep, mindless followers of patriarchal religion; too dense and clueless to even know that they are doing so (and educated women know better and so avoid being religious). Yet my religion — and I as a follower of it — are supposed to be the ones who are anti-women?

Huh???!!!!!

* * *

Your passion on this subject is very much appreciated.

Cool! There is something to be said about that, but I’m much more interested in truth than passion for its own sake. If I’m passionately wrong (or if you are), it does little good.

However, it would be useful if it is directed towards the very religious system that you defend so vehemently and improve the lives of the billions of women that you seem to be concerned about rather than direct it at us who merely made observations of your system abusing those women for centuries.

This is a circular argument. You haven’t proven anything of the sort. The original claim was that the Bible itself is the cause of such abuse. You brought out a laundry list (and I’d love to learn the original source of it) to try to “prove” that. I have been a vocal critic of men who abuse Christian teachings in order to abuse women, for many years now. But note that I don’t think that Christianity itself or the Bible is the cause of it. It has to be distorted. Anything can be distorted or misunderstood, but we have to make the necessary distinctions. Case in point: I have already shown with several of the passages that you brought forth, that they were being taken out of context and poorly understood.

“committing the same exact shortcoming that you condemn”? “look down on a billion (or billions) of women”? “outlandish charges being leveled against them by three “enlightened” women”. Anyone can use caustic language to deflect the evils committed by the religion they believe in.

You have it exactly backwards. I’m using (what I sincerely believe to be) truthful language to defend the religion I believe in, that is not the way you are portraying it. If you want to oppose sin or abuse or neglect or cruelty or any number of unsavory things along those lines (including abortion, in your case), I’m right along with you. But I don’t agree that Christianity itself causes any of the things you detest (as I do). You seem to see the root cause as institutional religion. I see it as the sin that is present in each and every human being’s heart. The only difference is in degree.

It remains true that all three of you took a very low view of the integrity of Christian women, and (for you) religious women, period. I think this is most unfair, and a sort of prejudice. Sorry; that is how I sincerely see it. It doesn’t mean I think you are “bad” people. I’ve met you, and I think you’re very friendly. I have nothing against you. I’m referring solely to the statements made at the beginning of the thread.

Imagine, for example, my wife (or even [name’s] Christian wife) reading the things that were written about Christian women. Do you think they would offend her? It’s not even necessary to make these kinds of statements in the first place, about gigantic groups of people, as if they can apply to that many as a generalization. It’s absurd. Then when I object to them and defend millions upon millions of Christian women you say I am trying to “deflect the [supposed] evils” of Christianity? You see nothing wrong whatever with the sort of sweeping language that you three used?

But this type of counter allegation is totally new and extremely entertaining to me :-)

I’m glad I made you smile. I love it when people can take criticism graciously. That reflects well on you.

So you put our “enlightened” criticism on the same level as the oppression of women by religion?

No; I think secularism and so-called “enlightened” thought is far worse than what you think religion does. I’m defending Christianity. I’m not defending Hinduism or Islam or any other religion. So whatever goes on there is not my task to defend. If you want to go after the Untouchables and the caste system of Hinduism, then we are in agreement. Gandhi did the same. If you want to detest and abhor women being stoned when they refuse to abide by a prearranged marriage, as in some Islamic societies, then I am as outraged at that as you are. But I’m not defending that. I can even agree that many religious systems literally enshrine or institutionalize evil. But I disagree that Christianity is one of those.

Very clever strategy

That’s odd. I didn’t see it as a “strategy” at all, let alone “clever.” I simply spoke what I feel is the truth.

but it doesn’t follow logic because our criticism did not result in millions of deaths and starvation and bodily injury where as religion did and still does.

On what basis do you make these claims? What religion did this? Starvation in the present time usually results from political despots who are quite secularized. We know that Stalin starved ten million Ukrainians in the 1930s. That didn’t flow from “Christianity” but from personal evil and Communism. Mao wasn’t acting in the name of religion when he murdered 60 million. We agree on abortion. That is upward of 100 million worldwide. Those are actual documented figures. Where are yours?

Yes, I can speak in ‘broader’ terms than most Americans because I have lived amidst more than a billion (seems to be your favorite number) people and been exposed to many more religions besides Christianity. I have seen the tears of religious women that were frequently abused by their spouses and in-laws physically and mentally but would not divorce because their religion would not approve of it.

Christianity teaches that any woman in such an abusive situation is not obliged to stay there. That’s what we teach. If Hinduism or something else teaches differently, then let them defend that. I think it stinks. You claimed that the Bible taught this . . .

I heard the agony of the women who had to undergo a forced abortion of a female fetus because her family and religion considered the birth of that child a bad omen.

And you claim that that is somehow Christian and biblical teaching, too? You seem to be forgetting what the original claims were, that I am objecting to. You’re switching horses in mid-stream.

I keep hearing from women that have husbands that cheat on them and even indulge in incest but are too afraid to change the situation for fear of religious consequences.

And how does that have anything to do with what I as a Christian and Catholic believe? How is that extrapolated to the entire class of Christian and other religious women, because you have seen these horrid cases?

You don’t have to be an expert on religion and its texts to see how it is affecting the lives of people following it.

I wish you would meet some Christian women who are very happy and fulfilled in their lives. I’d love for you to meet my own wife sometime, so we can start changing these negative stereotypes that you appear to be laboring under. But she is pretty shy. I don’t know if I could convince her to attend a meeting. Maybe sometime just us three could meet, and have a good heart-to-heart conversation. If you think Christianity is so terrible for women, you need to talk to someone like her. And I know scores and scores of women friends and acquaintances who are as fulfilled in their Christianity as she is. You need to meet some of them. It’s not good to believe inaccurate things about folks.

Even the most well-intentioned religious text can be misinterpreted and misused by people for their own advantage.

Exactly. Then you fight the abuse, and don’t throw the baby out with the bathwater, as you three did. We can agree on most things that are bad or evil or undesirable, and agree in opposing them and doing something about them. And we can do so without blasting entire groups of human beings. I don’t see what good comes of that. It creates ill will and discord. People have to be approached on an individual basis.

It is self destructive if you allow yourself to be a victim of such a system by continuing to follow it even after experiencing the negative effects first hand.

The thing in dispute is what the “system” is in the first place. You say Christianity is institutionally responsible for much of this, and I am denying that and giving reasons and providing facts for why I do.

To point this aspect of the lives of religious women out doesn’t make it an outlandish charge.

The outlandishness wasn’t in decrying bad stuff but in wrongly identifying the cause and in characterizing religious women in sweeping terms. No one deserves to be treated like that. It’s just as wrong as when black people are negatively characterized, or Jews or Arabs or Mexicans, or Chinese: this kind of thing does no good at all. It’s as silly as it is destructive of good relations and good will.

* * *

A couple of thoughts, Dave, with regards to your claims about “looking down noses” and intolerance.

Okay, shoot.

A person can honestly believe that religion is crafted in a way to serve the interests of those in power without being snooty or intolerant. You can debate whether IN FACT the Christian religion was crafted by powerful people to serve powerful interests (largely male dominated societies). But I see no point in talking about the internal mind states of anybody that might hold to that view. It’s a legitimate opinion. Challenge it, but what does being snooty have to do with it?

Okay, so when [name] writes, “It’s very amusing to see religious women act like sheep even in this day and age” or “your system abusing those women for centuries” or about “religion” causing “millions of deaths and starvation and bodily injury” (undocumented), you don’t see that as the slightest bit prejudicial language? You . . . see nothing whatever objectionable in that sort of language?

You don’t comprehend that a Christian (especially a Christian woman) would see these as somewhat bigoted statements? This goes far beyond a reasoned critique of a thought-system. She is judging millions of people who accept the system and charging them with profound mindlessness. Even the touch of noting that it was “amusing” adds to the condescension. Go ahead and defend what was written, then. I’d love to see what you come up with.

I’m not saying that [name] or the other two women are bigots! NO! I’m saying they are better than this, and ought to admit that the statements were extreme and unreasonable. We all make statements that are too extreme. I made some, you called me on it, and I admitted it and apologized. They don’t have to stoop to that level to engage in critiques of Christianity or other religions: by attacking the women in them en masse as gullible dumbbells.

I wrote about this weeks ago when the notorious former member was saying that no scientist could possibly be a theist, and then putting up comics saying that most or all Catholics are child molesters. You agreed and asked him to leave. So I know you are open to considering these issues of perception and relationship with theists. It’s part of what your group is about. That’s one reason I was invited, and why you are also having a Muslim apologist be a guest speaker.

And I wrote around that time, that Christians tend to see atheists as evil people, and atheists tend to see Christians as dummies. The former member even said what I wrote almost made him cry. Both are wrong; both are unreasonable and prejudiced attitudes. Reality is not nearly that simple. And people from the two groups won’t even be able to be friends (the only way anything good will ever be accomplished) as long as these stereotypes and prejudices prevail on both sides. It’s always tough to admit that we may have a part in some of those, but that’s the only way progress can be made.

I asked my wife at dinner how these statements made her feel, and whether they were examples of “prejudice.” She immediately laughed and agreed. She laughed (rather than becoming angry) precisely because the statements are so ridiculous. We Christians hear these things all the time, and Christian and pro-life and conservative women are routinely mocked by the media and academia. Look, for example, how Sarah Palin is treated. It’s old news, and we get used to it and laugh it off, but that doesn’t make it any less wrong.

I genuinely do not feel superior to religious people as a result of my lack of religion because I recognize as a person that fully embraced religious beliefs until only recently, that smart well-meaning people can be persuaded of religious claims.

I know you believe that, and I commend you for it. It’s common sense and self-evident, too (“I used to be religious and I wasn’t an imbecile and a dummy when I was; therefore, it stands to reason that there are many Christians and religious people who are as I was just a few years ago”). But then on the same grounds you should object to the characterizations that were made of Christian and religious women en masse.

This despite what some might consider to be transparent errors or backwards thinking reflected in the Bible. I also understand how there are a number of causes which can compel a person to believe a proposition that perhaps is irrational. Emotional pressures, conditioning, societal pressures, etc.

You have to explain it somehow. I view almost all of these matters as primarily defects of worldview and the reasoning process somewhere along the line. You think that of Christianity; I think it is the atheist system of thought. But I try to avoid personal stuff, and I would never dream of making a statement like:

“It’s very amusing to see atheist women act like sheep [or, alternately, “like evil witches”] even in this day and age.”

That would go over real big in this group, wouldn’t it? Try to imagine for just a second how it would have been if I had stated that. But instead, Christian women are the recipients, and so here we are arguing about whether that should be said in that way or not.

I do feel fortunate that I’ve managed to extract myself from that, but I know that in a parallel universe I’m continuing on with religious thinking, and I’m not a moron. So to those that do regard themselves as superior in their lack of religion I look at them as people that do lack understanding in the human condition. If they understood humanity better they would recognize that they are not really so different.

But you see nothing in any of the statements that began this thread that are remotely of that nature, that you and I can agree is unhelpful? If there were some vocal Christian women who were part of this group, you could see what they thought of it. Instead, I have to defend them from the foolish accusations.

But calling the Bible the way that you see it is not intolerant.

It wasn’t just the Bible: it was the women who follow biblical teaching and Christianity. It was made personal and prejudicial in that fashion. The very fact that one gender was singled out and pilloried is classic prejudicial behavior. It’s as absurd as it is irrational and unfactual. One can never make a sensible generalization about a group so huge. We’re talking about maybe 40-45% of all the people in the world, if we go after “religious women” as a class, as amusing “sheep,” etc. How absurd is that?

To tolerate means to allow for views with which you disagree.

And we don’t do that by making fun of one billion Christian women and a couple more billion religious women of other faiths, do we?

So disagreement is a necessary prerequisite to tolerance. We absolutely tolerate the Bible. You do not.

No, I tolerate atheism.

You agree with the Bible, so you cannot be tolerant toward the Bible. That’s like saying I tolerate the sight of a beautiful woman or I tolerate bacon cheeseburgers. No, I think they’re both great, so tolerance does not enter the picture.

* * *

Dave, let me start by quoting George Salmon, who wrote the following in the intro a famous book that you well know:

These lectures were not written for Roman Catholics and I do not expect them to fall into the hands of any except of those who deal in controversy and who perhaps may take up the volume in order to see if it contains anything that needs to be answered. If any such there should be I beg of them to remember that they are overhearing what members of another communion say when they are quite by themselves and therefore that they must not be offended if they meet the proverbial fate of listeners in hearing some things not complimentary.

Now, I know you’re not a fan of Salmon, but let me tell you something. Leaving aside the validity of his basic arguments he makes a number of points that show simply that he understands what humans are like and what they do. When people think they are amongst themselves they might talk about those outside the group in a way that, if those outside were to hear it, would be regarded as very rude. It’s important to be gracious if you find that you overhear such a statement. The fact of the matter is we don’t always recognize that Christians are present. When I’m talking amongst liberals and/or Muslims I talk in a way that makes fun of right wing war mongers. That’s just having fun. When I’m face to face with a right winger I would speak differently. They do the same thing when talking to me, and that’s fine. I’m sure when you are amongst your Catholic apologetics friends you make fun of Protestants and atheists in a way you wouldn’t to their face. No problem. We all do it.

* * *

That is true as a “rule” of human nature. The trouble is that no one made this point when the language was objected to. They dug in (including yourself) and defended it even further. Certain things are simply wrong. I think this is one of them. If classifying 40-45% or more of the human race in a most uncomplimentary fashion is not an example of a prejudicial remark, I swear I don’t know what one is at all. And I think I do.

Moreover, [name] made her first comments after I commented, so she knew full well I was “there” and interacting with the sentiments. She even upped the ante: extending the criticisms to all religious women as a class of people, not just Christians. Thus, the notion of talking differently when not in the presence of an “outsider” wouldn’t apply there. She’s a straight shooter just as I am. This is her opinion.

Nice, job, by the way of skirting all of my direct questions.

Like I said, I like [name]. I’ll always appreciate her courtesy and graciousness at that first meeting at her house (and yours, and that of others, too. I was very impressed with the group). I don’t see this as a character issue at all, or a judgment of her as a person. I’m simply saying that such sweeping language is inappropriate and false and ought to be reconsidered. We all do it at times. I do it; you probably do, too. Everyone does at one time or another. But it doesn’t do anyone any good. Just because we all fall into it at times doesn’t make it right.

If my wife were to attend a meeting in the future, she now knows what is thought of Christian women. Is that any way to start out? It’s just bad human relations policy and bad logic, too. Christians and atheists have got to get past the stereotypes about each other if there is any hope of any mutual understanding to be achieved at all. I’m the eternal optimist and idealist. I think we can do better. I believe it is possible, with communication and friendship and mutual respect built up. But at times I do despair of it ever happening.

* * *

Can a woman administer communion in a Catholic Church?

Yes; happens every week in most Catholic churches (and there are altar girls and female readers, too). It’s called “extraordinary minister of holy communion.” Some of these ministers also give holy communion to the sick in hospitals, etc. I saw one of them when my late father was in the hospital. Women (and non-ordained men) can also administer baptism in emergency situations. And the sacrament of marriage is regarded as self-administered, so the wife-to-be participates in that as well.

Can a woman become a bishop, cardinal or pope?

No. But they can become doctors of the Church (those considered to be preeminent teachers of the faith): St. Teresa of Ávila, St. Catherine of Siena, and St. Thérèse de Lisieux; and saints. Mary is God’s highest creature, and venerated and honored above all human beings. Bishops and popes will be kissing her feet when they get to heaven. She is infinitely above them in the hierarchy. But no one cares about that, and its implications for the Catholic view of women. I already mentioned Mary early on in this thread.

What is the basis for your answers to those questions?

For the first answer, it is the fact of what happens at Masses. Simple enough . . . The second is based on difference of gender roles, but not inequality, as I have already shown. Ordained offices are not the only things for anyone to do in the Church. I’m not ordained; I’m a lay apologist. I have a different role. But it is one that the Church encourages and considers important. Women have roles that are distinct from priests, bishops, and popes.

The dumb, illogical conclusion is to arrive at the notion that role differentiation must necessarily be inequality and subjugation of women. That is the casual “deduction” of radical feminism, but it’s ludicrous. Why would we place the three doctors of the Church and Mary in the positions they are in (along with many venerated female saints) if that were the case?

When 1 Peter 3:1 says, “Wives, likewise be submissive to your husbands…”—what does ”likewise” refer to? Like….what? (The Greek is homoios meaning, “likewise, equally, in the same way.”)

Obviously, it has to refer to what came before (I know context might be a novel concept to atheist exegetes, who routinely ignore it). And that was the “example” (2:21) of Christ suffering without returning the favor. And so Peter applies the analogy to the wife who is unfortunate to find herself married to a husband who does “not obey the word,” who can positively affect him by “reverent and chaste behavior” (3:2), to “be won without a word” (3:1).

It’s like [name’s] wife! If she practices her faith and follows the example of Christ, maybe [name] can be won back one day. If she puts up with his atheism, doesn’t make a fuss, is longsuffering, prays for him, maybe one day [name] will be moved and touched by that and come back to the faith. It’s entirely possible. Stranger things have happened. I know many former atheists myself. I’m a former “practical atheist” (one who lives as if God didn’t exist or make any difference in life).

Suffering and persevering like Christ is not, of course, confined to females or wives, but is highly recommended for all Christians. Hence in 3:9 it states, “Do not return evil for evil or reviling for reviling; but on the contrary bless . . .” (cf. 3:14; 4:1). There are many more passages elsewhere along these lines (e.g., Rom 8:16-18).

Now, since I was courteous enough to reply to your questions, maybe someone will interact with the ton of counter-replies I made. That would be nice, wouldn’t it? If we did that we would actually be in danger of falling into dialogue (!!!), rather than mutual monologue. Or is it supposed to be a one-way thing: with me answering all the questions, and mine being summarily ignored? That seems to be the fashionable thing to do these days. Just talk right past the other guy . . .

But I don’t have time (at least not today) to play Bible hopscotch and ring-around-the-rosey, by going through 7000 supposed “Bible difficulties.” There is rarely if ever any serious discussion of either single passages or the biblical teaching as a whole (systematic theology). And that is because most atheists (the ones I’ve encountered anyway) aren’t interested in that. It doesn’t go with the plan. It ain’t part of the game. They merely want to poke holes and mock and scorn the Bible and Christianity. They approach the Bible like a butcher approaches a hog.

It’s self-justification and rationalization: “I reject the Bible (and along with it, Christianity) because the Bible is so patently ridiculous. It is because of passages a, b, c, d, ad infinitum, ad nauseum . . .” And then if a Christian dares to suggest and demonstrate that said passages were misinterpreted, context butchered, idioms or meanings of words vastly misunderstood, rudimentary, elementary exegetical and hermeneutical principles spat upon and and scornfully dismissed, the atheist wants no part of that conversation . . . they always know more about the Bible than the Christian who has intensely studied it for years (33, in my case).

We see that in this thread by the fact that no one gave a damn about all the counter-exegesis I provided concerning the supposed sexist texts in the Bible. That’s not according to the plan. We mustn’t learn what the Bible actually teaches. It’s more fun to proof-text and quote out of context. If one passage says that sin came from Eve, the game is to ignore the two that said that all sin came from Adam. It’s much more fun to selectively present and provide half-truths, to keep people ignorant and complacent. The goal is to prove sexism, so if I disprove supposed examples of that, it has to be ignored, because the truth of what the passage actually means in context might be revealed, and that is a naughty no-no. Then Christianity might start making sense to those who now despise it.

Then Christians might not be regarded in the following fashion (quoting an atheist blog I happened to run across):

Look, we think theism is wrong. As wrong as a geocentric solar system. As wrong as a 6000-year-old, flat earth, global-flood, demon-possessing, Mary-in-a-Grilled-Cheese, geocentric solar system. Which, like people wearing tin-foil hats to protect themselves from government rays, we would normally laugh off and let live their lives in peace.

That’s me! My theism is the equivalent of flat-earth, young earth, geocentrism, and Mary in a grilled cheese sandwich. Be gone with nuance, all fine and necessary distinctions. Just like what was said about Christian women in this thread!

The issue still remains that there were prejudicial sentiments expressed in this thread. I would like to see them either defended or retracted.

* * *

It’s been a while, huh? [we used to engage in debates some years ago now]

While I agree people may take portions of the Bible out of context, and apply it incorrectly, resulting in sexism, we cannot ignore portions that do not treat women so favorably.

This is the closest to an acknowledgment that fanatically cynical Bible citation has occurred in this thread. I’ll take it! It looks like it is the best I can hope to expect.

Again, this is applying a 1st Century Roman & Judean social system upon our modern cultural norms, and sometimes the pieces don’t fit. The Bible was written in the sexism of its time;

The time was certainly sexist; on that we agree. We disagree on whether the Bible literally adopted the immoral sexism that was prevalent.

only when we try to apply it to 21st Century do the incongruities arise. It doesn’t make the Bible itself sexist (any more than the Iliad, or King Arthur or Acts of Paul sexist)—just a human work written within its time.

Right and wrong are not culturally or time-relative. But at least you offer some refreshing nuance in a thread where there has been absolutely none, where the Bible and women are concerned.

I asked those questions to show how the Bible does list prescriptions that appear sexist to our culture.

“Appear” is the operative word.

As to my first question (who administers communion in the Catholic church)—I did not know women could do so. I thought (obviously incorrectly) only priests could. Thank you for that information. I had a different experience in my Protestant upbringing.

Protestant churches would generally not do that if they didn’t allow female pastors.

However, as to my second question (can a woman be a bishop, cardinal or pope) you gave a synonymonic (just made the word up on the spot!) argument that women aren’t bishops, cardinals and popes because they don’t have the “role” of bishop, cardinal or pope.

Right. I don’t have the role of a breast-feeding mother or a child-bearing mother. Should I go around protesting that I am deprived and unequal because I can’t do those things? My oldest son couldn’t be a priest (or join the military) because he has Asperger’s Syndrome. The same would apply to my second son because he is bipolar. Overweight or deaf people or those with bad vision cannot be in combat. There are lots of things people can’t do. And there are some things that are gender-exclusive. Why that is regarded automatically as oppression and inequality is one of the mysteries and comic farces of our peculiar age.

I was looking for something a bit deeper—why don’t they have the role? The problem here is rooted in the Bible, in that it only provides such offices to males. Women need not apply—they are not allowed.

Great. So you actually want to learn about why we believe as we do instead of just putting it down and condemning it. That’s a start. Good for you.

Worse, if (as you appear to argue) they have the intellectual chops to perform the roles—what is it specifically about being female bars them from the role?

See the resources listed in the paper above.

If Mary is venerated higher than the Pope, what prevents a female from filling the pope’s role?

The nutshell answer is that Christ was a male, and the priest literally represents Christ in the Mass (at the consecration he is like Christ at the Last Supper). That’s the main reason. To use a rough analogy, if they were to do a movie biography of you, would they get Angelina Jolie to play you, or would they get a guy? And would Angelina have a basis to complain that she didn’t land the role, and cry about how unfair and unjust that is?

1 Peter 3:1 is a particularly troubling verse.

Although spouse abuse was technically forbidden by Roman law, there are hints it occurred with little prohibition unless it was extreme. Augustine mentions seeing bruises on the mothers of his childhood friends. Herodes Atticus had his freedman kick his wife to death, and when prosecuted, got off partially because he claimed he didn’t mean the beating to be that violent. Of course, we know of Nero kicking his own pregnant wife to death.

Wife abuse was not viewed with the same social anathema as today.

That’s right, but such monstrosities were not sanctioned by Christianity.

The verse states, “Wives, in the same way, be submissive (hypotasso) to your husbands…” I agree with you—to understand why it says “in the same way” we need to look to the previous verses. Look for where the author previously talked about a person being hypotasso. (submissive).

Uh-oh. In looking a few verses earlier, we see the author telling slaves to be submissive to their masters. 1 Peter 2:18. Even if they beat the slave when the slave was “doing well.” (agathopieo) 1 Peter 2:20. (Note also, there is no honor for taking a beating if the slave “deserved it.”) Notice that in 1 Peter 3:6, the author equally tells the wife to “do well.” (agathopieo)

Christians don’t like the obvious connection…but there it is. Wives submit to husbands, just like slaves submit to masters. Even when they beat you unjustly for doing well. Nothing about leaving an abusive husband.

Not in that text, but elsewhere, it is clear that the “master” has no New Testament grounds for beating and cruelty:

Ephesians 6:8-9 knowing that whatever good any one does, he will receive the same again from the Lord, whether he is a slave or free. [9] Masters, do the same to them, and forbear threatening, knowing that he who is both their Master and yours is in heaven, and that there is no partiality with him.

Colossians 4:1 Masters, treat your slaves justly and fairly, knowing that you also have a Master in heaven.

The wife is an equal, not a slave. Submissiveness is a notion that goes beyond the master-slave relationship. We know that because, as I mentioned before, even Jesus was submissive to his earthly parents and God the Father.

Jesus’ subjection to the Father is seen in such verses as John 14:28: “. . . for my Father is greater than I,” 1 Corinthians 11:3: “. . .the head of Christ {is} God,” and 1 Corinthians 15:28: “And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.” When the Father is called the “head” of the Son (1 Cor 11:3), this also does not entail any lessening of the equality between the Son and the Father. The Bible also talks about wives being subject to their husbands (1 Pet 3:1,5), even while the two are equals (Gal 3:28, Eph 5:21-22), and indeed, “one flesh” (Matt 19:5-6).

Likewise, one Person of the Godhead can be in subjection to another Person and remain God in essence and substance (Phil 2:6-8). Luke 2:51 says that Jesus was “subject” to Mary and Joseph. Yet no orthodox Christian of any stripe would hold that Jesus was lesser in essence than His earthly parents! The same Greek word for “subject” in Luke 2:51 (hupotasso) is used in 1 Corinthians 15:28, and in 1 Peter 2:18.

I know some apologists attempt to tie 1 Peter 3:1 back to the bit about Jesus, to avoid the problem of the Master/slave comparison, but that doesn’t help, because the verses are discussing Jesus physically suffering unjustly, but still doing his duty. It is the same problem. (and amplifying the extent of the author’s meaning by how much one should submit under how much unjust suffering.)

No; that parallel is more apt because it is immediately prior, and that is how language and syntax works. Moreover, the analogy is more exact and corresponding point-by-point. 1 Peter 2:20 (suffering unjustly) is tied into the next verse, about Jesus:

1 Peter 2:21 For to this you have been called, because Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example, that you should follow in his steps.

Then the parallelism is to:

1) a person suffering heroically and unjustly,

2) bearing witness to others,

3) so that they can start to live a righteous life and be saved in the end:


1 Peter 2:23-24
When he was reviled, he did not revile in return; when he suffered, he did not threaten; but he trusted to him who judges justly. [24] He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed.

1 Peter 3:1-2 Likewise you wives, be submissive to your husbands, so that some, though they do not obey the word, may be won without a word by the behavior of their wives, [2] when they see your reverent and chaste behavior.

If Christ is the example, and the husband is to love his wife as Christ loved the Church (Ephesians), then there are no grounds for thinking that a husband can beat his wife, based on the New Testament. I don’t see Jesus going around beating anyone up. Do you?

The analogy you try to make is incomplete, because it doesn’t have element #3 above. The servant who suffers unjustly is “approved” (2:19) and has “God’s approval” (2:20). There is nothing about the master being won over. The parallel there is between Christ in 2:24 and the wife in 3:1. Therefore, the “likewise” applies more to the excerpt about Jesus Christ by virtue of proximity and also the more exact analogy.

Paul expresses the same scenario of the wife helping to save the husband, but he makes it reciprocal: it could be the husband helping to save the unbelieving wife, too:

1 Corinthians 7:12-16 To the rest I say, not the Lord, that if any brother has a wife who is an unbeliever, and she consents to live with him, he should not divorce her. [13] If any woman has a husband who is an unbeliever, and he consents to live with her, she should not divorce him. [14] For the unbelieving husband is consecrated through his wife, and the unbelieving wife is consecrated through her husband. Otherwise, your children would be unclean, but as it is they are holy. [15] But if the unbelieving partner desires to separate, let it be so; in such a case the brother or sister is not bound. For God has called us to peace. [16] Wife, how do you know whether you will save your husband? Husband, how do you know whether you will save your wife?

So, nice try, but no cigar.

If the Christian wants to claim sexism is a result of people applying the Bible improperly, I point out 1 Pet. 3:1 and wonder if they are claiming it should be applied “properly.”

I do. I just showed you how.

As to the rest of your fuss, to the extent it applied to me (awww…you quoted a portion of my blog…how sweet of you! :-),

That was you!? What a coincidence!

all I can say is, “Welcome to the Internet!”

Like I said before, I am an idealist who thinks that things can be done better. I think atheists and Christians share rudimentary ethics in common. Logic works the same for both of us. Love of facts and truth need not be different. I refuse to accept the hogwash that passes for “dialogue” on the Internet. I don’t care what the medium is. That is not a sufficient excuse. I’m a writer; an author, and write for a living. Obviously, I think people ought to be able to intelligently express themselves in writing, to be cordial with those who disagree, and to give them the courtesy of addressing their arguments. You ignored my earlier exegetical arguments (as did everyone else) and started in with something entirely different but at least we have some semblance of interaction now (for which I shall be eternally grateful).

You can’t say I didn’t directly address your argument. You may not like my answer (I predict that you won’t!) but you can’t deny that I made one, and that it had substance to it; agree or disagree.

Sometimes people don’t answer all your questions. Sometimes they present information in ways you don’t like. Sometimes you may present information in ways they don’t appreciate.

Yeah, and sometimes one who desires, as I do, a true socratic dialogue (which is as rare as a tax-cutting Democrat) gets sick and tired of that, and can therefore choose to do something else. You came the closest. This latest exchange was actually a fairly decent dialogue. You presented your case and I gave my reply, which I think is adequate to dispose of the charge.

Human differences…they sure make it fascinating.

Yep. My emphasis is on what we have in common, though. That’s why I think Christian-atheist dialogue is actually possible, by agreeing on what we do agree on and proceeding from there, as in all constructive dialogue. Dialogue is a bit more difficult when one enters into it thinking that many (all?) theists are as dumb as flat-earthers, ain’t it? You say that is “the Internet”. I say it is plain dumb and stupid. I don’t care if it is written online or in the sand at the ocean, or in braille or with spray paint. The medium is irrelevant. The opinion is stupid and untrue. That’s “harsh”? It should be. The more silly and foolish and outrageous a statement is, the more appropriate it is to harshly rebuke and refute it.

* * *

For some excellent, in-depth reading on related topics, see:

Good question…did/does God order wives to ‘obey’ their husbands? (Glenn Miller; includes exegesis of 1 Peter 3:1)

Women in the Bible (Glenn Miller, of the superbly helpful Christian Thinktank website)

Good question…Does God condone slavery in the Bible? [Old Testament] (Glenn Miller)

Good question…Does God condone slavery in the Bible? [New Testament] (Glenn Miller)

Also of note is the fact that “servants” in 1 Peter 2:18 is the word oiketes (Strong’s word #3610), or “house-servant” or “domestic” rather than “servant” with the more literal meaning of “slave” (doulos: Strong’s word #1401; translated as “servant” 120 times in the KJV, and often as “slave” in the RSV and NRSV). Oiketes appears only here and in Luke 16:13; Acts 10:7; and Romans 14:4. It is related to oikonomos, from which we get the word “economy” (the root term oikos meaning “home” or “house”). It’s not too much of a stretch to think of oiketes, therefore, as akin to “housewife.”

As Glenn Miller noted, it is never said of the oiketes that he or she “obey” (masters). Wives are not commanded to do that. The word used is “submit.” Since Jesus submits (hupotasso) to Joseph and Mary (creatures that He created) and submits to His Father (with Whom He is equal, in the Bible and Christian theology), obviously that is not a matter of inequality.

Thus, the attempted analogy (slave wife) is already greatly weakened, since it is a house-servant being referred to, rather than an outright slave. Even the latter was not the same in the ancient near east, as it was in the South in the 17th-19th centuries (i.e., chattel slavery). So a one-to-one comparison is not apt or accurate, for this and several other reasons I have noted. Marriage is not a master-slave relationship in Christianity. Miller goes into this in great detail in the two papers listed above.

And I have already shown that the analogy is not just to the oiketes but also to Christ in the section immediately preceding 1 Peter 3:1.

* * *
It’s also instructive to view the entire section of 1 Peter 2-3, in order to see the symmetrical teaching about submission and servanthood. It’s not just about wives, but about everyone (including even Jesus Himself):

1 Peter 2:13-14 (Governments and Institutions) Be subject for the Lord’s sake to every human institution, whether it be to the emperor as supreme, [14] or to governors as sent by him to punish those who do wrong and to praise those who do right.

1 Peter 2:16 (God) . . . live as servants of God.

1 Peter 2:17 (All Men, God, Emperor) Honor all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honor the emperor.

1 Peter 2:18 (Servants [i.e., domestics] and Masters) Servants, be submissive to your masters with all respect, not only to the kind and gentle but also to the overbearing.

1 Peter 2:21, 23-24 (Jesus Serves Mankind and Submits to God the Father) For to this you have been called, because Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example, that you should follow in his steps. . . . [23] When he was reviled, he did not revile in return; when he suffered, he did not threaten; but he trusted to him who judges justly. [24] He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed.

1 Peter 3:1-2 (Wives to Husbands) Likewise you wives, be submissive to your husbands, so that some, though they do not obey the word, may be won without a word by the behavior of their wives, [2] when they see your reverent and chaste behavior.

1 Peter 3:6 (Sarah to Abraham) as Sarah obeyed Abraham, calling him lord. . . .

1 Peter 3:7 (Husbands “Honor” Wives, the “Joint Heirs”) Likewise you husbands, live considerately with your wives, bestowing honor on the woman as the weaker sex, since you are joint heirs of the grace of life, in order that your prayers may not be hindered.

1 Peter 3:8-9, 14 (All Towards All) Finally, all of you, have unity of spirit, sympathy, love of the brethren, a tender heart and a humble mind. [9] Do not return evil for evil or reviling for reviling; but on the contrary bless, for to this you have been called, that you may obtain a blessing. . . . [14] But even if you do suffer for righteousness’ sake, you will be blessed. Have no fear of them, nor be troubled,

1 Peter 3:15 (Believers to Christ) but in your hearts reverence Christ as Lord. . . .

1 Peter 3:16-17 (Suffering for the Sake of Others; Turning the Other Cheek) and keep your conscience clear, so that, when you are abused, those who revile your good behavior in Christ may be put to shame. [17] For it is better to suffer for doing right, if that should be God’s will, than for doing wrong.

1 Peter 3:18 (Christ’s Dying for Mankind was the Supreme Example of Service) For Christ also died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit;

1 Peter 3:21-22 (Jesus Submits to the Father; Angels and “Powers” are Subject to Him) . . . Jesus Christ, [22] who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers subject to him.

The feminists want to have a cow about the terminology of “weaker sex” (“weaker” = asthenees: Strong’s word #772)? Is this yet more biblical male chauvinism and sexism? Hardly. It’s nothing that is not applied to men and masses of people, or even to apostles and to God Himself (!). Like the character trait of servanthood it is also widely extolled, as a positive, not a negative thing. The apostle Paul repeatedly uses it:

Applied to God

1 Corinthians 1:25 For the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

Applied Humble Origins Used by God for His Purposes

1 Corinthians 1:26-27 For consider your call, brethren; not many of you were wise according to worldly standards, not many were powerful, not many were of noble birth; [27] but God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise, God chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong,

Applied to Paul Himself (Using Sarcasm) as a Laudable Trait

1 Corinthians 4:9-13 For I think that God has exhibited us apostles as last of all, like men sentenced to death; because we have become a spectacle to the world, to angels and to men. [10] We are fools for Christ’s sake, but you are wise in Christ. We are weak, but you are strong. You are held in honor, but we in disrepute. [11] To the present hour we hunger and thirst, we are ill-clad and buffeted and homeless, [12] and we labor, working with our own hands. When reviled, we bless; when persecuted, we endure; [13] when slandered, we try to conciliate; we have become, and are now, as the refuse of the world, the offscouring of all things.

Paul uses the cognates astheneo (Strong’s word #770 — in blue below) and asthenia (Strong’s word #769 — in red below) similarly:

1 Corinthians 2:2-5 For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ and him crucified. [3] And I was with you in weakness and in much fear and trembling; [4] and my speech and my message were not in plausible words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, [5] that your faith might not rest in the wisdom of men but in the power of God.

2 Corinthians 12:9-10 but he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.” I will all the more gladly boast of my weaknesses, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. [10] For the sake of Christ, then, I am content with weaknesses, insults, hardships, persecutions, and calamities; for when I am weak, then I am strong.

2 Corinthians 13:3-4, 9 since you desire proof that Christ is speaking in me. He is not weak in dealing with you, but is powerful in you. [4] For he was crucified in weakness, but lives by the power of God. For we are weak in him, but in dealing with you we shall live with him by the power of God. . . . [9] For we are glad when we are weak and you are strong. What we pray for is your improvement.

The author of Hebrews expresses the typically Hebraic and biblical paradox of being strong via weakness (similar to the servant of all being the greatest):

Hebrews 11:32-34 And what more shall I say? For time would fail me to tell of Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, of David and Samuel and the prophets — [33] who through faith conquered kingdoms, enforced justice, received promises, stopped the mouths of lions, [34] quenched raging fire, escaped the edge of the sword, won strength out of weakness, became mighty in war, put foreign armies to flight.

Ephesians, chapters 5 and 6 offers a similar pericope devoted to universal and particular servanthood:

Ephesians 5:1 (Imitate God, as Children) Therefore be imitators of God, as beloved children.

Ephesians 5:2 (Imitate Christ, Who is God, in Love) And walk in love, as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us, a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God.

Ephesians 5:10 (Please the Lord) and try to learn what is pleasing to the Lord.

Ephesians 5:17 (Do God’s Will) Therefore do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is.

Ephesians 5:21a (Subject to One Another . . . ) Be subject to one another . . .

Ephesians 5:21b (. . . Because of Reverence for Christ) . . . out of reverence for Christ.

Ephesians 5:22-23a, 24b, 33b (Wives to Husbands) Wives, be subject to your husbands, as to the Lord. [23] For the husband is the head of the wife . . . [24] . . . so let wives also be subject in everything to their husbands. . . . [33] . . . and let the wife see that she respects her husband.

Ephesians 5:23b-24a (Church to Christ) . . . as Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its Savior. [24] As the church is subject to Christ, . . .

Ephesians 5:25 (Husbands to Love Wives as Christ Loved the Church, Dying for Her) Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her,

Ephesians 5:28-29a, 33a (Husbands to Love Wives as Their Own Bodies) Even so husbands should love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. [29] For no man ever hates his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, . . . [33] however, let each one of you love his wife as himself, . . .

Ephesians 5:29b-5:30, 32 (Analogy: Christ Loves the Church, His Body) . . . as Christ does the church, [30] because we are members of his body. . . . [32] This mystery is a profound one, and I am saying that it refers to Christ and the church;

Ephesians 5:31 (Husband and Wife Are One Flesh) “For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.”

Ephesians 6:1-3 (Children to Obey and Honor Parents) Children, obey your parents in the Lord, for this is right. [2] “Honor your father and mother” (this is the first commandment with a promise), [3] “that it may be well with you and that you may live long on the earth.”

Ephesians 6:4 (Fathers Shouldn’t Provoke Children to Anger) Fathers, do not provoke your children to anger, but bring them up in the discipline and instruction of the Lord.

Ephesians 6:5 (Slaves and Masters) Slaves, be obedient to those who are your earthly masters, with fear and trembling, in singleness of heart, as to Christ;

Ephesians 6:6-8 (Analogy: Serving Christ) not in the way of eye-service, as men-pleasers, but as servants of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart, [7] rendering service with a good will as to the Lord and not to men, [8] knowing that whatever good any one does, he will receive the same again from the Lord, whether he is a slave or free.

Ephesians 6:9 (Masters Not to Abuse Slaves / Servants, Because of God’s Love) Masters, do the same to them, and forbear threatening, knowing that he who is both their Master and yours is in heaven, and that there is no partiality with him.

* * *

Quick review for our studio audience.

The Bible is a product of books reflecting the cultural norms of their times. Those standards are antiquated and no longer applicable to our current culture. The Bible’s books are neither the demon decried by many skeptics, nor the angel ascribed by many believers. They are simply human works of their time. Unfortunately, some people hold these cultural norms continue to be applicable to our current society, causing some clashes.

We have been discussing one of those clashes—the treatment of women. Specifically, I have focused on women being denied positions in the Catholic Church, and the prescription of 1 Peter 3 not allowing an abused woman to leave her husband.

Pressing on…

Women can’t be bishops, cardinals or popes.

Dave Armstrong,

I asked what prevents women from obtaining these positions. You indicated genders have different roles; something that doesn’t really progress the conversation, leaving us with the question, what prevents women from have the role of bishop, cardinal or pope.

You indicated you were prevented from the role of breast-feeding or child birth by your “role” as a male—but the difference is obvious. You are physically limited from performing those roles. Are you saying there is a physical limitation of women preventing them from being a bishop, cardinal or pope?

[Humorously, the only limitation I could think of was the production of sperm—something women cannot do. Yet because your religion requires bishops, cardinals and popes to be celibate, you take away that possibility by your own mandates!]

I appreciated the articles you linked to—I wondered if you understood it only made your position worse. Look, I was willing to argue the reason these roles were denied women was due to an outdated adherence to the misogyny of authors who wrote almost 2000 years ago. Instead, the articles linked indicated not only was it the misogyny of the Bible, additionally the Church (through Early Church Fathers, traditions and papal declarations) has continually re-affirmed that misogyny over and over and over for the past 2000 years, up to as recently as 1994!

In other words, I was willing to leave it at the Bible, these articles say, “Oh, no—it is much more. We have introduced numerous other ways in addition, and continue to do so to prevent women from being in these roles.”

I didn’t see any physical limitation listed in these articles. However as I read through them quickly, I may have missed it. If I did, please feel free to point it out.

1 Peter 3

As you recently pointed out, the author of 1 Peter is going through a number of prescriptions for the recipients, and from 1 Pet 2:13 – 3:7 is discussing submission to authorities. He starts off talking about submission to governments (2:13-17), then talks about slaves to masters (2:18-20), gives a parenthetical statement about why one should submit—namely Jesus as an example—and concludes with wives submitting to husbands (3:1-7).

[Quick aside. Whether 2:18 is referring to slaves, servants, maids, butlers, groomsmen, landscapers, etc. is quite beside the point. It is clear whatever they are, the master can beat them, even unjustly, and they are to still submit to the master. This curious rabbit trail as to whether they were “servants” or “slaves” misses the forest for the trees—it is NOT about whether they were slaves or servants—it is about their being beaten and remaining submissive.]

The problem, of course, is the author saying, “In the same way, wives need to submit to their husbands, even if they don’t obey the word’ implying even if wives are being beaten (like the slave) they are to submit (like the slave) to their husband (like the master.)

You originally indicated (typical apologetic trick) that “in the same way” was referring to the parenthetical statement on Jesus. This doesn’t help, of course, as Jesus also was beaten and still submitted. So we have the same problem.

But then you point out the article by Glenn Miller that says…EXACTLY WHAT I SAID! He relates 1 Peter 3:1 back to the master/slave situation of 2:18! Exactly what I said. (Otherwise we wouldn’t need this whole discussion about slaves, now would we?)

Thanks for finding an article you apparently subscribe to that supports what I said.

[Another aside. The idea the woman situation correlates to Jesus as compared to Master/slave because of three correlations rather than two is another apologetic trick. Why pick only those correlations? And who says the author is even intending to have whatever has “more” numbers as to what he intends to correlate? ]

Curiously, Glenn Miller attempts to avoid this situation by stating this did not apply to “abusive situations” yet provides no support for this assertion. There is no evidence for me to address, as none is presented. (Note, he does refer to a situation where a woman divorced her husband for repeated infidelities, and correctly states women were technically allowed, under the law, to divorce their husbands for almost any reason, including abuse. But there are numerous situations where biblical books give greater restrictions than those actions allowed by law, and Glenn Miller fails to make any demonstration why this, too, couldn’t be the same.)

Dave Armstrong—there really isn’t anything more to say. I think its pretty clear; doesn’t mean it will persuade someone set against it. That’s fine—what makes horse races.

You are welcome to have the last word. Unless you say something new or that lurkers are interested in a response, I am done.

[Name]’s final post (that [name] loved and lauded to the skies) left me the choice between being an advocate of wife-beating in practice and in the Bible, or being a dishonest, special pleading sophist, because I vehemently deny that what [name] claims is clear biblical teaching is what the Bible teaches at all. When those are the choices one is given (the two cages or rubber rooms they are forced into), constructive discussion has long since ceased to exist, because the opponent in effect “demands” that one be an evil or at the least, deliberately dishonest person.

True discussion becomes literally impossible under those loaded conditions. I refuse the choice and deny and reject both things. [Name] thinks I can’t do that. Great; then [name] has exploded any possible discussion. His choice (and [name]’s), not mine. I think even he knew that because he said he was done in the thread, and that insinuates that he believes I can’t possibly give any reply that would be worth any more of his time, because, well, I’m either violently evil or dishonest, and his position is self-evidently true (or at least infallible after he states and argues it). Makes perfect sense if one adopts the absurd and fact-torturing premises involved . . . But the inconvenient fact is that I don’t accept them.

I have to argue with the teenagers I teach everyday as I try to teach them reliable vs. unreliable sources in science discussions. I was not going to do it with a grown man, supposedly educated, in my leisure time.

I often get egotistical students who like to monopolize in the classroom. I have to restrict them to a response/question limit of 3/class period. It works well. Organizers can we have a “Dave Armstrong free” thread or at least a limited one?

And no, I don’t want to tell any member not to post. Dave is welcome to post here. Dave also is courteous enough that if you tell him you’d prefer he not participate in a thread that you start I know he’d respect that.

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Related Reading

Is Catholic Male-Only Priesthood Inherently Sexist? [2007]

Woman-Hating Catholic Church?: Reply to an Atheist [10-1-15]

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Dialogue with a Traditionalist Regarding Deaconesses (vs. Dr. Peter Kwasniewski) [5-13-16]
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Unfortunately, Money Trees Do Not ExistIf you have been aided in any way by my work, or think it is valuable and worthwhile, please strongly consider financially supporting it (even $10 / month — a mere 33 cents a day — would be very helpful). I have been a full-time Catholic apologist since Dec. 2001, and have been writing Christian apologetics since 1981 (see my Resume). My work has been proven (by God’s grace alone) to be fruitful, in terms of changing lives (see the tangible evidences from unsolicited “testimonies”). I have to pay my bills like all of you: and have a (homeschooling) wife and two children still at home to provide for, and a mortgage to pay.
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My book royalties from three bestsellers in the field (published in 2003-2007) have been decreasing, as has my overall income, making it increasingly difficult to make ends meet.  I provide over 2700 free articles here, for the purpose of your edification and education, and have written 50 books. It’ll literally be a struggle to survive financially until Dec. 2020, when both my wife and I will be receiving Social Security. If you cannot contribute, I ask for your prayers (and “likes” and links and shares). Thanks!
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See my information on how to donate (including 100% tax-deductible donations). It’s very simple to contribute to my apostolate via PayPal, if a tax deduction is not needed (my “business name” there is called “Catholic Used Book Service,” from my old bookselling days 17 or so years ago, but send to my email: [email protected]). Another easy way to send and receive money (with a bank account or a mobile phone) is through Zelle. Again, just send to my e-mail address. May God abundantly bless you.
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(originally posted on 9-20-10; abridged a bit on 2-12-20)

Photo credit: St. Thérèse of Lisieux (1873-1897): Doctor of the Catholic Church [public domain]

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2020-07-12T16:27:18-04:00

St. John Henry Newman was canonized by Pope Francis on 13 October 2019 in Rome.
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MY ARTICLES
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Importance & Influence of Blessed Cardinal Newman [5-22-03]

Was Cardinal Newman a Modernist?: Pope St. Pius X vs. Anti-Catholic Polemicist David T. King (Development, not Evolution of Doctrine) [1-20-04]

Does the History of the Papacy Contradict Catholic Ecclesiology? [1-20-04 at Internet Archive]

Catholics and Reason: Reply to Certain Misrepresentations of Catholic Apologetics and Philosophy — including excerpts from Newman’s Grammar of Assent [1-20-04 at Internet Archive]

Cardinal Newman’s Philosophical & Epistemological Commitments [10-19-04]

Döllinger & Liberal Dissidents’ Rejection of Papal Infallibility [11-28-04]

Absurd Anti-Newman Rhetoric in Anti-Catholic Polemics [3-19-02 and 9-27-05]

Cdl. Newman, Vatican I & II, & Papal Infallibility (Clarification) [12-10-05]

The Certitude of Faith According to Cardinal Newman [9-30-08]

Newman on Theological Liberalism (Tracts of the Times No. 73) [3-5-11]

Anglican Newman on the Falsity of Perspicuity (Clearness) of Scripture [3-7-11]

John Henry Newman on Papal Infallibility Prior to 1870 (Classic Anti-Catholic Lies: George Salmon, James White, David T. King et al) [8-11-11]

Dialogue on Newman’s Kingsley / Apologia Controversy [11-30-12]

Part Eight (of my 75-page conversion story): Bombshell and Paradigm Shift: Blessed John Henry Cardinal Newman’s Essay on the Development of Christian Doctrine (1990) [2013]

Cardinal Newman’s Conversion Odyssey, in His Own Words (1839-1845) [3-19-15]

Blessed Cardinal Newman on Mary’s Immaculate Conception [2015]

Cardinal Newman’s Conversion Agonies: Jan. 1842 to Feb. 1844  [2015]

Implicit (Extra-Empirical) Faith, According to JH Newman [12-18-15]

Armstrong vs. Collins & Walls #1: Newman’s Mariology [10-17-17]
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Pope Francis, Cardinal Newman, & Fresh (Orthodox) Presentations [1-29-18]

The “High”, Glorious Mariology of Cardinal Newman (Foreword to The Mariology of Cardinal Newman, by Rev. Francis J. Friedel) [4-11-19]

Dr. Echeverria: Francis Wants Development, Not Revolution [5-28-19]

Blessed Cardinal Newman on Mary’s Immaculate Conception [7-31-19]

The Anglican Newman on Prayer for the Dead (1838): It was as well-attested in the early Church as the Canon of Scripture [10-11-19]

Cardinal Newman Anticipated Vatican II & Lay Participation [10-11-19]

Cardinal Newman on What Persuades People of Christianity [10-12-19]

Anglican Newman on Oral & Written Apostolic Tradition [10-12-19]

St. John Henry Newman: Photograph & Portrait Page [10-14-19]

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MY THREE NEWMAN QUOTATIONS BOOKS

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The Quotable Newman: Foreword by Joseph Pearce [9-5-12]

The Quotable Newman (2012) [10-12-12]

Available for only $2.99 in several e-book formats.

The book page contains my Introduction.

Two glowing reviews by Dr. Jeff Mirus (one / two)

Fr. Peter M. J. Stravinskas, in The Catholic Response (Vol. IX, No. 4, Jan / Feb 2013, p. 58):

Cardinal Newman does not admit of sound-bites but Dave Armstrong has done a creditable job of giving us easily digestible portions of Newman’s thoughts on a host of topics, conveniently arranged in alphabetical order with a precise citation following each entry. This is a wonderful addition to Newman scholarship.

Stratford Caldecott, Editor of Magnificat:

Dave Armstrong’s anthology of Newman is the best I have seen remarkable for the way it makes this monumental writer accessible to the modern reader.

Joseph Pearce, Writer-in-Residence, the Thomas More College of Liberal Arts:

John Henry Newman is one of the most important Catholic writers, theologians and philosophers of the past two centuries. The Quotable Newman provides highlights from his magnificent work in one easy-to-read volume. This is the perfect introduction to his thought.

The Quotable Newman, Vol. II [8-20-13]

Available for only $2.99 in several e-book formats.

The book page contains my Introduction, many excerpts (posted on Facebook) and the Index of Topics.

The Quotable Newman (Vol. I, II): Complete Index of Correspondents [8-20-13]

Cardinal Newman: Q & A in Theology, Church History, and Conversion [2-24-15]

Available for only $2.99 in several e-book formats.

The book page contains many excerpts (posted on Facebook) and the comprehensive Table of Contents.

Introduction to my book: Cardinal Newman: Q & A in Theology, Church History, & Conversion [5-23-15]

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WEB PAGES

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Development of Doctrine (Index Page for Dave Armstrong)

Blessed John Henry Cardinal Newman: “Father” of Vatican II (Links Page)

This was for many years the most extensive web page devoted to Cardinal Newman, besides Newman Reader, that contained his actual books. It was active from 1997 to 2016, when it was discontinued. At this link one can still see archived versions of the page, which show how very comprehensive it was: and many of the links are still functional even now.

Farewell to My Lewis, Chesterton, & Newman Pages [6-8-16]

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HELPFUL EXTERNAL LINKS

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Visiting G.K. Chesterton, C.S. Lewis, J.R.R. Tolkien, and John Henry Newman: An England Pilgrimage (Photos) [extraordinary web page by Brandon Vogt]

National Institute for Newman Studies: Digital Collections

Newman Reader (virtually all Cardinal Newman books for free in nice HTML format)

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2019-04-11T14:27:04-04:00

Blessed [soon-to-be-saint] John Henry Cardinal Newman (1801-1890) was a (if not the) leading figure in the Church of England prior to his conversion to Catholicism in 1845; a scholar at Oxford who possessed brilliant speaking and writing abilities. His Parochial and Plain Sermons (1834-42), are considered by many the best sermons in the English language, and had “a profound influence on the religious life not only of Oxford but of the whole country” [F. L. Cross & E.A. Livingstone, editors, The Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church, Oxford: Oxford Univ. Press, 2nd ed., 1983, 965].

He was one of the prime movers of the Oxford, or Tractarian Movement, and author of twenty-four Tracts for the Times, both of which sought to defend a view of Anglicanism which was intermediate between Catholicism and Protestantism (but much closer to the former).

His Essay on the Development Of Christian Doctrine (1845), written immediately before his conversion, is considered the seminal work on the subject, while his spiritual autobiography, Apologia pro vita Sua (1864), is a model work on conversion. A Grammar Of Assent (1870) is his remarkable study on religious knowledge and certainty. Newman was made a Cardinal in 1877. We will now cite some non-Catholic estimates of Newman’s influence, ability and importance:

His fruitful use of the idea of development . . . and his profound insight into the nature and motives of religious faith, place him in the first rank of modern Christian thinkers . . . his genius has come to be more and more recognized after his death. (Cross, ibid., 966)

A profound and subtle thinker. (Winston Churchill, The Great Democracies, New York: Dodd, Mead & Co., 1958, 92)

. . . two of his generation’s keenest intellects; Newman and Mill. (Richard D. Altick, Victorian People and Ideas, New York: W. W. Norton & Co., 1973, 189)

Newman . . . went over to the Roman Catholic Church in October, 1845. The shock was tremendous. Even Peel’s reversal of the Corn Laws the next year created no greater excitement . . . To a country . . . thoroughly Protestant . . . this dramatic act by so notable a churchman seemed a betrayal. (Ibid., 213-214)

. . . sensitive, scholarly . . . a brilliant classics scholar . . . a master of English, both written and spoken. (William P. Barker, Who’s Who In Church History, Grand Rapids, Michigan: Baker Book House, 1969, 202-203)

When his sincerity was questioned, he responded . . . in what came to be known as Apologia Pro Vita Sua (1864). He thoroughly vindicated himself in the eyes of the world, and at the same time produced one of the great spiritual classics of all time . . . Subsequent generations have agreed that Cardinal Newman greatly enriched both the Anglican and the Catholic traditions by his scholarship and his personal commitment to the one Lord of the church. (Hugh T. Kerr & John M. Mulder, Conversions, Grand Rapids, Michigan: Eerdmans, 1983, 121-122)

Probably the classic road map for this journey is the one provided by Cardinal Newman’s Apologia. (Jaroslav Pelikan, The Riddle of Roman Catholicism, New York: Abingdon Press, 1959, 207)

His friend Henry Edward Manning and nearly 875 others, of whom nearly 250 were ministers or theological leaders at Oxford and Cambridge, followed him into the Roman Catholic Church after 1845. (Earle E. Cairns, Christianity Through the Centuries, Grand Rapids, Michigan: Zondervan, revised edition, 1981, 399)

In 1838 and 1839 Newman was beginning to exercise far-reaching influence in the Church of England, . . . because he seemed so decisively to know what he stood for and where he was going, because in the quality of his personal devotion his followers found a man who practiced what he preached, and because he had been endowed with the gift of writing sensitive and sometimes magical prose . . . His was a mind of penetration and power . . . In both the Catholic Church and the Church of England his influence has been momentous. (Encyclopedia Britannica, 1985, vol. 8, 658. Written by Anglican historian Owen Chadwick)

Read in the light of subsequent development in the almost one hundred years since his death, the Essay on Development has proved to be the seminal work for the thought of theologians and historians – and, above all, of historians of theology, who, even if they have been obliged to disagree with its methods or its conclusions, have been no less obliged to accept its formulation of the central problem. Not only to his latter-day disciples, therefore, but to many of those who have drawn other conclusions from his insights, John Henry Newman has become the most important theological thinker of modern times. (Jaroslav Pelikan, The Melody of Theology: A Philosophical Dictionary, Harvard University Press, 1988, 181)

Not surprisingly, Catholic writers agree with these appraisals:

The news of Newman’s entry into the Catholic Church aroused intense excitement. “It is impossible,” says Mark Pattison, “to describe the enormous effect produced in the academical and clerical world . . . throughout England, by one man’s changing his religion.” Gladstone, the prime minister, declared: “I regard Newman’s concession as an event as unexampled as an epoch.” Later, Disraeli, another prime minister, declared “that this conversion had dealt a blow to England from which she yet reeled.” . . . The procession started by Newman has never stopped. Continuing into our own day, it has brought more than 1400 Anglican clergymen into the Catholic Church. (John A O’Brien., Giants of the Faith, Garden City, New York: Doubleday Image, 1957, 157)

There is an abundance of testimony, in print, from Newman’s close friends and associates in the Oxford years. For the most part they did not follow him in the development of his religious views . . . The writers picture for us a singular combination of sophisticated genius and genuine natural simplicity . . . a gentleman, a scholar, an artist, and something of a saint. (Newman, Apologia Pro Vita Sua, Garden City, New York: Doubleday Image, 1956 [originally 1864], 7-8. From the Introduction by Philip Hughes. In February, 1991, Newman was proclaimed “Venerable”; he was beatified in 2010, and will be canonized as a saint in 2019)

He was, by 1838, the most striking figure in the life of the university [i.e., Oxford]. (Ibid., Introduction, 22)

Newman was a national figure; he had been, and still was to some extent, the leader of a party; he had been converted to Rome when conversion to Rome was a thing almost unheard of, and the blow had struck England like a catastrophe of nature. (Ronald A. Knox, A Spiritual Aeneid, New York: Sheed & Ward, 1950 edition, xv)

A fellow Catholic (words in blue) asked some questions about Cardinal Newman:
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First, let me say that I have read Newman Essay on the Development of Christian Doctrine, some of his Apologia). He was an important thinker and his idea about development is undeniably true, at least to some degree. Nevertheless, has any orthodox Catholic theologian disagreed with Newman and come up with an alternate idea on the development of doctrine?

Not to my knowledge. Seeing that Pope St. Pius X explicitly endorsed Newman and his ideas (and he is as “orthodox” as they come, and condemned the modernists, and is the “patron saint” even of ultraconservatives who go too far and who sometimes frown on development of doctrine), his ideas are pretty much “mainstream” and accepted, and, in fact, anticipated much of the emphasis of Vatican II.

The closest to direct opposition I am aware of (apart from those who falsely branded him as a modernist) would be Orestes Brownson (also a convert), back in the 1840s. I actually “debated” his ideas a bit in my book on development. I replied to his criticisms of Newman. I think his ideas were misguided and that he had a fundamental misunderstanding of Newmanian development (which isn’t really all that different from Vincentian development, just more particularized with regard to historical examples and arguments), much as certain contra-Catholic polemicists have: such as George Salmon in the 19th century and his successors today. But to his credit, Brownson later recanted these criticisms.

To my knowledge, Rome hasn’t taken an official position on Newman, so it seems that one could be perfectly orthodox and disagree with him. I’m not saying that I do disagree with him; I don’t know what to make of all his ideas (and perhaps to be more confusing I can’t think of anything specifically offhand that I disagree with him on). Anyway, is there a “Newman school” that is opposed by another “school” in Catholic theological circles? Are Newman’s ideas a topic of debate in Catholic circles? I thought you might know since you seem to be a expert of sorts on Newman.

I don’t think there is much debate, if any, among orthodox Catholics. For example, the very “traditional” Pope St. Pius X thought Newman was entirely orthodox, and defended him against charges to the contrary. Development of doctrine is accepted as a given, and there is no theory, to my knowledge, of historical particulars to rival Newman’s. Even a Lutheran-then-Orthodox scholar like Jaroslav Pelikan is filled with admiration for Newman’s genius in this regard (as we saw above). Protestant apologists Norman Geisler and Ralph MacKenzie, in their major critique of Catholicism, Roman Catholics and Evangelicals: Agreements and Differences (Grand Rapids, Michigan: Baker Books, 1995, 459 note that:

Some evangelicals, however, have overstated the case against Newman’s theory of development . . . Newman is accused of providing the historical/theological framework that would become the “warp and woof” of Roman catholic Modernism in the early years of the present century. Further, it is claimed that Newman’s theory makes any appeal to earlier sources or authorities (such as Augustine, Aquinas, Trent, and Vatican I) dated and irrelevant. This may be the view of liberal Roman Catholic theologians but it is firmly rejected by traditionalists.

They then cite Pope Pius X’s espousal of Newman’s work and notes the “similarity between Newman’s theory of development and the Protestant understanding of ‘progressive revelation'” – an argument I have been making for twelve years now. By “traditionalist,” Geisler simply means “orthodox Catholic.” I certainly consider myself a traditionalist in that sense.

Recent popes have offered glowing estimates of Cardinal Newman, and his thought and positive spiritual and theological influence. Pope St. Paul VI addressed Newman scholars on 7 April 1975:

Many of the problems which he treated with wisdom – although he himself was frequently misunderstood and misinterpreted in his own time – were the subjects of the discussion and study of the Fathers of the Second Vatican Council, as for example the question of ecumenism, the relationship between Christianity and the world, the emphasis on the role of the laity in the Church and the relationship of the Church to non-Christian religions. Not only this Council but also the present time can be considered in a special way as Newman’s hour, . . .

And in 1970 the same pope addressed a Newman Congress:

The profound change that disturbs the world and the Church and whose effects we experience more and more every day make our contact with Newman’s thought ever more precious. This thinking was deeply grounded in the faith and, at the same time, was in close harmony with the best of the demands of intelligence and modern feelings. Like St. Augustine, Newman knew what it cost in suffering to discover the full truth.. . . Today when everything is being systematically questioned, we can undoubtedly derive much profit by becoming imbued with the profound views of the “Essay on the Development of the Christian Doctrine” (See, for example, Jean Guitton, La Philosophie de Newman, Paris, Boivin, 1933) on the organic development of the Church’s doctrine, linked to the growth of her living body through the vicissitudes of twenty centuries of history, where truths not yet formulated and latent convictions gradually take on a definite expression under the influence of the Spirit. Nor can we fail to notice the value of the analyses in the Grammar of Assent for the modern man who, influenced by new philosophical trends, can hardly find the way to a verifiable certitude, that is, one not linked to a fleeting and changing sincerity, but rooted in a reasoned conviction which may well lean on interior experience, but rests first of all on an objective revelation.

Pope St. John Paul II echoed these thoughts:

The elevation of Newman to the Cardinalate, like his conversion to the Catholic Church, is an event that transcends the simple historical fact, as well as the importance it had for his own country. The two events have long since been deeply inscribed in ecclesial life far beyond the shores of England. The providential meaning and importance of these events for the Church at large have been seen more clearly in the course of our own century. Newman himself, with almost prophetic vision, was convinced that he was working and suffering for the defence and affirmation of the cause of religion and of the Church not only in his own time but also in the future. His inspiring influence as a great teacher of the faith and as a spiritual guide is being ever more clearly perceived in our own day, as was pointed out by Paul VI in his address to the Cardinal Newman Academic Symposium during the Holy Year 1975: . . .The philosophical and theological thought and the spirituality of Cardinal Newman, so deeply rooted in and enriched by Sacred Scripture and the teachings of the Fathers, still retain their particular originality and value. As a leading figure of the Oxford Movement, and later as a promoter of authentic renewal in the Catholic Church, Newman is seen to have a special ecumenical vocation not only for his own country but also for the whole Church. By insisting “that the Church must be prepared for converts, as well as converts prepared for the Church” (J. H. Newman Autobiographical Writings, ed. H. Tristram), he already in a certain measure anticipated in his broad theological vision one of the main aims and orientations of the Second Vatican Council and the Church in the post-conciliar period. In the spirit of my predecessors in the See of Peter, I express the hope that under this very important aspect, and under other aspects no less important, the figure and teaching of the great Cardinal will continue to inspire an ever more effective fulfilment of the Church’s mission in the modern world, and that it will help to renew the spiritual life of her members and hasten the restoration of unity among all Christians.

It is my hope that this centenary will be for all of us an opportunity for studying more closely the inspiring thought of Newman’s genius, which speaks to us of deep intellectual honesty, fidelity to conscience and grace, piety and priestly zeal, devotion to Christ’s Church and love of her doctrine, unconditional trust in divine providence and absolute obedience to the will of God.

I also wish to express my personal interest in the process for beatification of this “good and faithful servant” (cf. Mt 25:21) of Christ and the Church. I shall follow with close attention whatever progress may be made in this regard. (Letter of Pope John Paul II on the occasion of the Centenary of the Cardinalate of J. H. Newman, 7 April 1979)

. . . I welcome all of you and thank you for drawing attention through your celebration to the great English Cardinal’s special place in the history of the Church. The passage of a hundred years since his death has done nothing to diminish the importance of this extraordinary figure, many of whose ideas enjoy a particular relevance in our own day . . .

. . . All over the world people claim that this master of the spirit, by his works, by his example, by his intercession, has been an instrument of divine Providence in their lives.

5. In the contemporary cultural climate, with particular reference to Europe, there is an area of Newman’s thought which deserves special attention. I refer to the unity which he advocates between theology and science, between the world of faith and the world of reason. He proposed that learning should not lack unity, but be rooted in a total view. Thus he concluded his Discourses before the University of Dublin with these striking words: “I wish the intellect to range with the utmost freedom, and religion to enjoy an equal freedom, but what I am stipulating for is, that they should be found in one and the same place, and exemplified in the same persons” (Sermons Preached on Various Occasions, London 1904, p. 13).

In the present changing circumstances of European culture, does Newman not indicate the essential Christian contribution to building a new era based on a deeper truth and higher values? He wrote: “I want to destroy that diversity of centres, which puts everything into confusion by creating a contrariety of influences. I wish the same spots and the same individuals to be at once oracles of philosophy and shrines of devotion … ” (Ibid.). In this endeavour the path the Church must follow is succinctly expressed by the English Cardinal in this way: “The Church fears no knowledge, but she purifies all: she represses no element of our nature, but cultivates the whole” (The Idea of a University, Westminster, Md., p. 234). (Remarks on the Centenary of Newman’s death, 27 April 1990)

As we thank God for the gift of the Venerable John Henry Newman on the 200th anniversary of his birth, we pray that this sure and eloquent guide in our perplexity will also become for us in all our needs a powerful intercessor before the throne of grace. Let us pray that the time will soon come when the Church can officially and publicly proclaim the exemplary holiness of Cardinal John Henry Newman, one of the most distinguished and versatile champions of English spirituality. With my Apostolic Blessing. (Letter to Archbishop Vincent Nichols, Archbishop of Birmingham, 22 January 2001)

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(originally expanded and uploaded on 22 May 2003, incorporating earlier material from 1991)

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2018-10-29T18:02:14-04:00

[Cardinal Newman’s words will be in blue. Newman biographer Ian Ker’s words (heavily citing Cardinal Newman) will be in in green. I won’t indent their citations, since they are so lengthy]

Many Protestants particularly offended and scandalized by the Vatican I declaration of papal infallibility in 1870. I thought it would be interesting to note the striking similarity between remarks of Protestant critics today and those of the schismatic, ultimately liberal Old Catholic movement, post-1870, led (as a figurehead with quite ambivalent personal feelings) by the German Church historian Johann Joseph Ignaz von Dollinger (1799-1890), who was eventually excommunicated.

These strains of thought were also picked up by the anti-Catholics (on the principle of “my enemy’s enemy is my friend”); notably George Salmon (1819-1904): an Anglican controversialist whose big ax to grind against Catholicism was infallibility (exemplified in his book, Infallibility of the Church, 1888, which takes many wrongheaded, fallacious swipes at Newman).

Current anti-Catholic argumentation (whether those making them are consciously aware of this or not) shows great similarity to both of these men (Dollinger, the so-called “traditionalist” Catholic who opposed the latest ecumenical council, and the anti-Catholic Salmon: both opposing the latest Catholic ex cathedra dogma).

I shall document below what Blessed John Henry Cardinal Newman thought about this type of thinking (which might be called, somewhat cynically, “historical positivism”), by chronicling his remarks about Dollinger, the Old Catholics, and the rejection of the decree of Vatican I concerning the infallibility of the pope.

“Historical positivism” is not a merely polemical term, coined by myself or other Catholic apologists. It is a real thing, which is discussed by historians. Political scientist Jonathan B. Isacoff also offers a fascinating article about this approach and methodology, which reads in part:

Positivism views historical inquiry as similar to archeology. While the events of the past can not in any literal sense be replicated or witnessed, we are left with shards of evidence: documents, records, first-hand observations, and so forth from which an objective account of what happened in the past can be reconstructed. Employing the documentary and other materials inherited by historians over time, bits and pieces of evidence can be fitted together to produce a sum total that can be accurately and fairly called a true historical account. This understanding of historical inquiry has come under sustained critique during recent decades . . .

Positivism is the dominant ontology and epistemology of the Anglo-American tradition of historiography and social science, including its contemporary instantiation. Among the key ideas of positivism are that inquiry should be scientific; that there is an a priori scientific method; that the basic scientific method is the same for both the natural and social sciences; and that sciences should be reducible to physics. Among the cornerstones of positivist ontology is that there is a physical and historical world that definitively exists/existed with fully descriptive features. In terms of epistemology, positivists argue that the ontological features of the world are of fundamental importance because it is fully possible to attain “true” knowledge of the world as it really is/was. (“Pragmatism, Historical Inquiry, and International Relations,” 3-27-02; link now defunct)

And now on to Cardinal Newman in response to Dollinger and the Old Catholics, who rejected papal infallibility, as fully defined by the First Vatican Council (1870). Newman biographer Ian Ker recounts some of Newman’s diary entries:

[H]e continued to think Dollinger ‘wrong in making the worst of the definition instead of making the best’. It was simply playing into the hands of the extremists to exaggerate the terms of the definition, which in fact had been a ‘defeat’ for the Ultramontanes. (John Henry Newman: A Biography, Oxford University Press, 1988, 665; citing Letters and Diaries, edited by Charles Stephen Dessain et al, Oxford: 1977, Vol. XXV, 438)

Ker continues:

Towards Dollinger, whose quarrel with the Council had become a quarrel with the Church, Newman was still sympathetic, but critical. Characteristically, he diagnosed Dollinger’s crisis as fundamentally a failure of imagination. Dollinger was not a ‘philosophical historian’, in the sense that ‘He does not throw himself into the state of things which he reads about — he does not enter into the position of Honorius, or of the Council 40 years afterwards. He ties you down like Shylock to the letter of the bond, instead of realizing what took place as a scene.’ Newman could not understand how Dollinger could accept the council of Ephesus, for example, which was notorious for intrigue and violence, and not the recent one. Perhaps, he shrewdly guessed, ‘by this time the very force of logic, to say nothing of philosophy, has obliged him to give up Councils altogether’. (Ker, ibid., citing Letters and Diaries, Vol. XXVI, 120)

As regards the relation between history and theology, Newman is unequivocal in his criticism of Dollinger and his followers . . . ‘I think them utterly wrong in what they have done and are doing; and, moreover, I agree as little in their view of history as in their acts.’ It is not a matter of questioning the accuracy of their historical knowledge, but ‘their use of the facts they report’ and ‘that special stand-point from which they view the relations existing between the records of History and the communications of Popes and Councils’. Newman sums up the essence of the problem: ‘They seem to me to expect from History more than History can furnish.’ The opposite was true of the Ultramontanes, who simply found history an embarrassing inconvenience.

As the Church is a sacred and divine creation, so in like manner her history, with its wonderful evolution of events, the throng of great actors who have a part in it, and its multiform literature, stained though its annals are with human sin and error, and recorded on no system, and by uninspired authors, still is a sacred work also; and those who make light of it, or distrust its lessons, incur a grave responsibility.

But he wondered why ‘private judgment’ should ‘be unlawful in interpreting Scripture against the voice of authority, and yet be lawful in the interpretation of history?’ The Church certainly made use of history, as she also used Scripture, tradition, and human reason; but her doctrines could not be ‘proved’ by any of these ‘informants’, individually or in combination. No Catholic doctrine could be fully proved (or, for that matter, disproved) by historical evidence — ‘in all cases there is a margin left for the exercise of faith in the word of the Church.’ Indeed, anyone ‘who believes the dogmas of the Church only because he has reasoned them out of History, is scarcely a Catholic’. (Ker, ibid., 684, citing Difficulties of Anglicans, II [Letter to the Duke of Norfolk, 1875], 309, 311-312)

Cardinal Newman continues in the latter work:

In beginning to speak of the Vatican Council, I am obliged from circumstances to begin by speaking of myself. The most unfounded and erroneous assertions have publicly been made about my sentiments towards it, and as confidently as they are unfounded. Only a few weeks ago it was stated categorically by some anonymous correspondent of a Liverpool paper, with reference to the prospect of my undertaking the task on which I am now employed, that it was, “in fact understood that at one time Dr. Newman was on the point of uniting with Dr. Dollinger and his party, and that it required the earnest persuasion of several members of the Roman Catholic Episcopate to prevent him from taking that step,”—an unmitigated and most ridiculous untruth in every word of it, . . .

On July 24, 1870, I wrote as follows:—

I saw the new Definition yesterday, and am pleased at its moderation—that is, if the doctrine in question is to be defined at all. The terms are vague and comprehensive; and, personally, I have no difficulty in admitting it. The question is, does it come to me with the authority of an Ecumenical Council?

Now the primâ facie argument is in favour of its having that authority. The Council was legitimately called; it was more largely attended than any Council before it; and innumerable prayers from the whole of Christendom, have preceded and attended it, and merited a happy issue of its proceedings.

Were it not then for certain circumstances, under which the Council made the definition, I should receive that definition at once. Even as it is, if I were called upon to profess it, I should be unable, considering it came from the Holy Father and the competent local authorities, at once to refuse to do so. On the other hand, it cannot be denied that there are reasons for a Catholic, till better informed, to suspend his judgment on its validity.

. . . Also I wrote as follows to a friend, who was troubled at the way in which the dogma was passed, in order to place before him in various points of view the duty of receiving it:—

July 27, 1870.

. . . Or again, if nothing definitely sufficient from Scripture or Tradition can be brought to contradict a definition, the fact of a legitimate Superior having defined it, may be an obligation in conscience to receive it with an internal assent. For myself, ever since I was a Catholic, I have held the Pope’s infallibility as a matter of theological opinion; at least, I see nothing in the Definition which necessarily contradicts Scripture, Tradition, or History; and the “Doctor Ecclesiæ” (as the Pope is styled by the Council of Florence) bids me accept it. In this case, I do not receive it on the word of the Council, but on the Pope’s self-assertion.

And I confess, the fact that all along for so many centuries the Head of the Church and Teacher of the faithful and Vicar of Christ has been allowed by God to assert virtually his own infallibility, is a great argument in favour of the validity of his claim.

. . . The other main objection made to the Council is founded upon its supposed neglect of history in the decision which its Definition embodies. This objection is touched upon by Mr. Gladstone in the beginning of his Pamphlet, where he speaks of its “repudiation of ancient history,” . . .

But it is not every one that can read its pages rightly; and certainly I cannot follow Mr. Gladstone’s reading of it. He is too well informed indeed, too large in his knowledge, too acute and comprehensive in his views, not to have an acquaintance with history, far beyond the run of even highly educated men; still when he accuses us of deficient attention to history, one cannot help asking, whether he does not, as a matter of course, take for granted as true the principles for using it familiar with Protestant divines, and denied by our own, and in consequence whether his impeachment of us does not resolve itself into the fact that he is Protestant and we are Catholics. Nay, has it occurred to him that perhaps it is the fact, that we have views on the relation of History to Dogma different from those which Protestants maintain? And is he so certain of the facts of History in detail, of their relevancy, and of their drift, as to have a right, I do not say to have an opinion of his own, but to publish to the world, on his own warrant, that we have “repudiated ancient history”? He publicly charges us, not merely with having “neglected” it, or “garbled” its evidence, or with having contradicted certain ancient usages or doctrines to which it bears witness, but he says “repudiated.” He could not have used a stronger term, supposing the Vatican Council had, by a formal act, cut itself off from early times, instead of professing, as it does (hypocritically, if you will, but still professing) to speak, “supported by Holy Scripture and the decrees both of preceding Popes and General Councils,” and “faithfully adhering to the aboriginal tradition of the Church.” Ought any one but an oculatus testis, a man whose profession was to acquaint himself with the details of history, to claim to himself the right of bringing, on his own authority, so extreme a charge against so august a power, so inflexible and rooted in its traditions through the long past, as Mr. Gladstone would admit the Roman Church to be?

. . . [referring to the Old Catholics] Extensive as may be their historical knowledge, I have no reason to think that they, more than Mr. Gladstone, would accept the position which History holds among the Loci Theologici as Catholic theologians determine it; and I am denying not their report of facts, but their use of the facts they report, and that, because of that special stand-point from which they view the relations existing between the records of History and the enunciations of Popes and Councils. They seem to me to expect from History more than History can furnish, and to have too little confidence in the Divine Promise and Providence as guiding and determining those enunciations.

Why should Ecclesiastical History, any more than the text of Scripture, contain in it “the whole counsel of God”? Why should private judgment be unlawful in interpreting Scripture against the voice of authority, and yet be lawful in the interpretation of history? There are those who make short work of questions such as these by denying authoritative interpretation altogether; that is their private concern, and no one has a right to inquire into their reason for so doing; but the case would be different were one of them to come forward publicly, and to arraign others, without first confuting their theological præambula, for repudiating history, or for repudiating the Bible.

. . . Historical evidence reaches a certain way, more or less, towards a proof of the Catholic doctrines; often nearly the whole way; sometimes it goes only as far as to point in their direction; sometimes there is only an absence of evidence for a conclusion contrary to them; nay, sometimes there is an apparent leaning of the evidence to a contrary conclusion, which has to be explained;. . . There is nothing of bondage or “renunciation of mental freedom” in this view, any more than in the converts of the Apostles believing what the Apostles might preach to them or teach them out of Scripture.

What has been said of History in relation to the formal Definitions of the Church, applies also to the exercise of Ratiocination. Our logical powers, too, being a gift from God, may claim to have their informations respected; and Protestants sometimes accuse our theologians, for instance, the medieval schoolmen, of having used them in divine matters a little too freely. Still it has ever been our teaching and our protest that, as there are doctrines which lie beyond the direct evidence of history, so there are doctrines which transcend the discoveries of reason; and, after all, whether they are more or less recommended to us by the one informant or the other, in all cases the immediate motive in the mind of a Catholic for his reception of them is, not that they are proved to him by Reason or by History, but because Revelation has declared them by means of that high ecclesiastical Magisterium which is their legitimate exponent.

What has been said applies also to those other truths, with which Ratiocination has more to do than History, which are sometimes called developments of Christian doctrine, truths which are not upon the surface of the Apostolic depositum—that is, the legacy of Revelation,—but which from time to time are brought into form by theologians, and sometimes have been proposed to the faithful by the Church, as direct objects of faith. No Catholic would hold that they ought to be logically deduced in their fulness and exactness from the belief of the first centuries, but only this,—that, on the assumption of the Infallibility of the Church (which will overcome every objection except a contradiction in thought), there is nothing greatly to try the reason in such difficulties as occur in reconciling those evolved doctrines with the teaching of the ancient Fathers; such development being evidently the new form, explanation, transformation, or carrying out of what in substance was held from the first, what the Apostles said, but have not recorded in writing, or would necessarily have said under our circumstances, or if they had been asked, or in view of certain uprisings of error, and in that sense being really portions of the legacy of truth, of which the Church, in all her members, but especially in her hierarchy, is the divinely appointed trustee.

Such an evolution of doctrine has been, as I would maintain, a law of the Church’s teaching from the earliest times, and in nothing is her title of “semper eadem” more remarkably illustrated than in the correspondence of her ancient and modern exhibition of it. As to the ecclesiastical Acts of 1854 and 1870, I think with Mr. Gladstone that the principle of doctrinal development, and that of authority, have never in the proceedings of the Church been so freely and largely used as in the Definitions then promulgated to the faithful; but I deny that at either time the testimony of history was repudiated or perverted. The utmost that can be fairly said by an opponent against the theological decisions of those years is, that antecedently to the event, it might appear that there were no sufficient historical grounds in behalf of either of them—I do not mean for a personal belief in either, but—for the purpose of converting a doctrine long existing in the Church into a dogma, and making it a portion of the Catholic Creed. This adverse anticipation was proved to be a mistake by the fact of the definition being made.

. . . I end with an extract from the Pastoral of the Swiss Bishops, a Pastoral which has received the Pope’s approbation.

It in no way depends upon the caprice of the Pope, or upon his good pleasure, to make such and such a doctrine, the object of a dogmatic definition. He is tied up and limited to the divine revelation, and to the truths which that revelation contains. He is tied up and limited by the Creeds, already in existence, and by the preceding definitions of the Church. He is tied up and limited by the divine law, and by the constitution of the Church. Lastly, he is tied up and limited by that doctrine, divinely revealed, which affirms that alongside religious society there is civil society, that alongside the Ecclesiastical Hierarchy there is the power of temporal Magistrates, invested in their own domain with a full sovereignty, and to whom we owe in conscience obedience and respect in all things morally permitted, and belonging to the domain of civil society.

(A Letter Addressed to the Duke of Norfolk on Occasion of Mr. Gladstone’s Recent Expostulation [Certain Difficulties Felt by Anglicans in Catholic Teaching] –online; Chapter 8: “The Vatican Council”, [book and chapter both linked to the left], Volume 2, 1874; reprinted by Longmans, Green, and Co., London, 1900, 299, 301-305, 308-315, 339-340; see also Chapter 9, “The Vatican Definition,” for an excellent discussion of many epistemological and ecclesiological aspects of infallibility)

Those who follow this erroneous line of thought start with this false notion (or reasonable facsimile thereof) that historical fact is somehow sufficient in and of itself to constitute orthodoxy or some sort of “norm.” Even if this were true (which it isn’t — since theology is not sociology or anthropology), the papacy far outweighs radical conciliarism as a matter of how things actually operated throughout the history of the Church.

Such proponents have to elaborate upon how they see the relationship of the bald facts of history to orthodoxy, and further, how orthodoxy is determined (historically, and in their theological opinion of how it should be done), and why we should accept their criteria for this rather than some criteria established by councils and popes (or some other authority). So they not only have to provide a sensible, plausible criterion, but also a reason why their opinion carries force (i.e., a plausible argument for authority with regard to their claims).

Whether history substantiates something is a different claim from whether it is orthodox or not. We are also dealing with religion and faith here, not simply brute historical facts. Christianity no more reduces to history than it reduces to philosophy.

***

(originally 11-28-04)

Photo credit: Johann Joseph Ignaz von Döllinger (1799–1890): 1874 portrait by Franz von Lenbach (1836-1904) [public domain / Wikimedia Commons]

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2018-07-28T12:27:35-04:00

Words of the anti-Catholic polemicist James “Dr.” [???] White will be in blue.

*****

King of the anti-Catholics, Reformed Baptist apologist James White has issued his by now standard mocking “reply” to any reasoned criticism I offer to his work (the latest one having to do with his unfortunate and ultimately heretical claim that “vicar of Christ” can only apply to the Holy Spirit and not to the pope). [see a similar later paper of mine] There is little new here. My entire argument was dismissed (without the slightest consideration) as “inane”, “ridiculous”, “embarrassing”, “absurd”, “childish”, “laughable”, “Unworthy of anyone with the slightest modicum of concern for the truth”, “twisted argumentation”, not for “the serious reader”, “despicable”, and “Jack Chick level materials”.

Beyond that, he rendered his usual arrogant, groundless judgment against my honesty, using words like “self-deception” and “if those on the far side of the Tiber manning the defensive works actually claim to love the truth, then why are they so deathly silent in the face of the likes of Armstrong?” and “When Armstrong produces something that has any kind of accuracy to it, he is just borrowing from what he’s read from others” and “Could it be that Armstrong has deceived Sophia Institute? I suppose.”

This sort of worthless gibberish is neither here nor there. It’s a big yawn. Obviously White is threatened by what I do, since this is what folks do when they can’t answer a rational objection. Never were Shakespeare’s famous and insightful words more true: “Methinks thou dost protest too much.”

He did issue one sensible criticism, worthy of reply, though (even an unplugged clock is right twice a day, after all), in between all the obligatory potshots and ad hominem rhetoric. He cited the beginning portion of a letter sent out by Sophia Institute Press, my publisher, written about myself. Here is what he posted:

[Sophia Institute Press blurb] A lifelong Protestant Scripture scholar has recently brought forth evidence that Catholicism is the only Christian religion that agrees completely with the Bible — evidence that’s so compelling it led him to become a Catholic!

Dave Armstrong’s odyssey began decades ago when disputes among his Protestant brethren launched him on a quest to discover the true Bible-based church. The closer he looked at Scripture, the more he found key teachings that were denied by this Protestant sect or ignored by that one.

Worse: his hard-core Protestant convictions were shaken by mounting evidence that of all the Christian churches today, only one — the Catholic Church — is thoroughly biblical. Says Armstrong: “That was entirely contrary to what I had so cavalierly assumed as an Evangelical Protestant.”

Not one to make hasty decisions, Armstrong undertook nearly two-decades of study to resolve, once and for all, the core issues that divide Catholics and Protestants.

This contains several inaccuracies. I don’t know what happened here. It’s very strange. I had nothing to do with it whatsoever and didn’t even know about it till White’s article. But in any event, it should be corrected. Sophia has been nothing but a class publisher, and a pleasure to work with (I happened to visit their office in New Hampshire just last month). I’m sure they will take steps to rectify the mistake. Meanwhile, I will post below my letter to my editor, Todd Aglialoro, since White has challenged me (and Sophia) to do so with these provocative lines, but far more importantly, because it is the truth, and a correction of a big mistake:

This would have made a funny parody on a Protestant site, but given that this is being used to try to bilk people out of their money, it is not humorous at all. If young Dave Armstrong was a “lifelong Protestant Scripture scholar” then the US is filled with literally millions and millions of “lifelong Protestant Scripture scholars” and the phrase no longer has meaning. In fact, my small church has dozens of them. My youth group is filled with lifelong Protestant Scripture scholars. . . .

This isn’t an advertisement. It’s a travesty. But, it does provide an insight into the mindset of those who market Romanism.

Could it be that Armstrong has deceived Sophia Institute? I suppose. Or, could it be that some over-zealous copy writer for Sophia Institute went off on a tangent and Armstrong is not responsible for it? Sure. And if that is the case, I’m sure I will see an article on DA’s website tomorrow correcting the advertisement. But the chances of that are about as good as my finding a retraction and apology for his absurd accusation of implicit Trinitarian heresy based upon his inane handling of a single Latin term.

Here now is the letter I wrote to my publisher, Sophia Institute Press:

I have a concern about a Sophia piece written about me that is now being severely criticized by the anti-Catholic apologist James White. He makes a number of perfectly valid points because there are serious inaccuracies in this blurb. Here is the excerpt that James White put up on his blog, along with his usual hit piece against my apologetic competence and character (that has been occurring for now twelve years and running): [I then posted the excerpt seen above]

Who wrote this (or was it not really from Sophia, as claimed)? It has several glaring inaccuracies that could have easily been corrected by a reading of one of the several versions of my conversion story (particularly the one in Surprised by Truth). I shall detail them, one-by-one:

1) I am not now, nor have I ever been, a “scholar”, if by that one means (as most people assume, I think) some sort of academic, formerly trained (graduate-level college or seminary courses). I certainly don’t want to be called this, seeing that I have taken great pains to deny that I am one or ever claimed to be. One oft-heard strain of the “anti-apologetics” mentality is that apologists pretend to be scholars when they are not; this doesn’t help matters any.

2) Nor can it be said that I am a “lifelong” Scripture “scholar” or student. I was raised in a nominal Methodist home and cared very little for Christian theology until I was 18 and converted to evangelical Christianity. I didn’t do any serious apologetic study until I was 23, in 1981. I started reading the Bible itself only in 1977. Why would someone describe me by this title? I could see “avid student of the Bible” (i.e., since 1977!) or “Bible-based apologist” or “amateur biblical exegete” or suchlike but the “scholar” and “lifelong” part are untrue.

3) It is also untrue that my conversion was caused solely by a study of the biblical basis for Catholicism. It was in fact caused primarily by three things (one moral matter and two historical ones):

A) The contraception issue;

B) Development of doctrine as a key to understanding the progression of Church history and the historical background of distinctively Catholic doctrines;

and:

C) A deeper study of the so-called “Reformation”, incorporating Catholic as well as Protestant historical accounts.

The “biblical evidence for Catholicism” theme that is what I am known for now came immediately after my conversion, when I undertook in-depth study along those lines (that eventually became A Biblical Defense of Catholicism), in order to explain my conversion to my Protestant friends, and to defend the Church herself in terms that they could relate to.

4) It is false to say that my “odyssey began decades ago”. It began in early 1990 and ended in October 1990. Prior to that I was fairly happy as an evangelical. I started my eventual conversion journey (without knowing it at the time) by thinking more deeply about the issue of contraception.

5) Nor did my odyssey commence as a result of disputes among fellow Protestants. Most of us agreed that contraception was fine and dandy, and that is what I first started questioning. It was pro-life Catholics, if anything (in the rescue movement that I was a part of) who influenced me to think more deeply about that issue.

6) I wasn’t trying to find the one true Church when I began this spiritual and intellectual odyssey. I didn’t even think in those terms, being a very “low church” evangelical with a theology more Baptist than anything else. In fact, I fought vigorously (with Catholic friends) against papal infallibility in particular, utilizing such anti-infallibilist sources as George Salmon, Hans Kung, and Joseph Dollinger. Like Newman (and with his aid), I more or less backed into the truth of the Catholic Church being the apostolic Church of history. I converted, one might say, because of giving my best shot fighting Catholicism, and in the end failing in my attempts to demonstrate the superiority of evangelical Protestantism. It was not the result of a quest to answer the question of “who is the true church?” I was fighting against Catholicism and its vision of ecclesiology and then ran smack dab into Newman and development, at which time I conceded that I couldn’t answer his analysis or refute it, and was, therefore, convinced by it.

7) Now, it is indeed true that I have since found that the Catholic Church is far more biblical, and uniquely so, as a result of my intense study of biblical Catholic apologetics. Every time I have done biblical apologetics (often in the course of Internet debates with Protestants) these past seventeen years I have found this to be the case, without exception. But that started right after my conversion, not before, therefore was no cause of that conversion.

8) It is false to say that I “undertook nearly two-decades of study to resolve, once and for all, the core issues that divide Catholics and Protestants.” As I wrote above, my entire conversion process occurred within the space of one very intense year: 1990. I’ve been doing apologetics ever since, but not in the sense of “resolving” anything, for the apologist, by definition, is a strong advocate of a position already; not trying to “resolve” differences. The apologist proclaims what he already strongly believes and gives reasons for it.

Needless to say, if this description is being used to promote my books or those from Sophia in general, it should be pulled at once, due to all these serious errors. Obviously, someone was too hastily making unfounded assumptions about my life and conversion process. But such a description has to be in compliance with the facts. My conversion story has been “out there” in a bestselling book [Surprised by Truth] since 1994 (and in three magazines and website and blog articles), so I don’t see any reason why those facts could not have been ascertained, so as to avoid this mishap, now being exploited by enemies of the Church in a deliberate effort to harm my name and reputation, that of Catholic apologetics in general, and that of Sophia Institute Press.

White has issued his “Armstrong Update” (added to the original hit-piece). This is about as charitable as he ever gets towards me, admitting that something I wrote is actually sincere (wow!; I’m so flattered by his immense graciousness that I’m speechless):

UPDATE: Dave Armstrong has posted a letter to Sophia Institute asking them to explain the inaccuracies in the book-promotion e-mail noted above. I speculated on the possibility that an over-zealous copy writer was to blame, and according to Armstrong, that’s the case. I have no reason to question him. His letter seems sincere. Sadly, he still can’t bring himself to admit that his “vicar” argument is as empty as Mahmoud Ahmadinejad’s eschatology, but that is just part of the “persona,” as is the wacked-out picture he has included in his reply (another warped picture of yours truly).

My editor at Sophia, Todd Aglialoro [now the editor at Catholic Answers], has written, clarifying matters. He gave me permission to post his words:

We will make sure that all website copy about you is in conformity with the facts as you’ve listed them below, and of course in all future statements. Meanwhile you would be quite right to say that the error was the fault of “an over-zealous copy writer.” We’re a small group of over-busy people at Sophia, and under deadlines it is all too easy to fall both into imprecision and into handy marketing boilerplate that is usually quite harmless — unless a hostile party were to comb through them trying to establish some malicious intent to deceive.

. . . rather than edit the link to the eblast on our website, we’ve simply disabled it completely. There’s nothing we can do to take back the emails that have already gone out, but at least there are no more active links to that text.

***

(originally 9-7-07)

Photo credit: [PublicDomainPictures.NetCC0 Public Domain license]

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2018-04-24T18:51:32-04:00

Exodus From Rome, Volume 2: A Biblical and Historical Critique of Roman Catholicism (The Scofield Institute Press, 8 April 2018), by Todd D. Baker, is the latest of a long line of anti-Catholic critiques of Catholicism (i.e., from the perspective that Catholicism isn’t a species of Christianity, and is a “false gospel”).

Dr. Todd Baker is president of B’rit Hadashah Ministries and Pastor of Shalom Messianic Congregation in Dallas, Texas. He holds a Bachelor of Science Degree in Biblical Studies, a Master of Theology degree from Dallas Theological Seminary, and a Ph.D. in Philosophy and Apologetics from Trinity Seminary under the auspices of Liverpool University at Liverpool, England. He is a professor at Scofield Bible Institute and staff theologian and writer for Zola Levitt Ministries.

Dr. Baker’s words, from his book, will be in blue.

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Yesterday I refuted Dr. Baker’s arguments over against my own regarding tradition and sola Scriptura issues, Mary (Spouse of the Holy Spirit, New Ark of the Covenant, and Mediatrix) and his silly pretense that I supposedly define the Protestant pillar of sola fide (“faith alone”) as antinomianism (antipathy to laws and moral rules and the importance of good works).

Today I will reply to his hyper-uncharitable, uninformed, and exceedingly ignorant swipes at the reasons for my conversion to Catholicism in 1990 (a thing I have written about at length, many times). I’m the world’s biggest expert on my own motivations and internal reasoning, and I think it is reasonable to assume that Dr. Baker is not a mind-reader, nor can he read souls. He certainly hasn’t come within a million miles of understanding me. Thus, his analysis here amounts to a farce. But I’ll spend a few humorous and entertaining hours on it and move on.

Dr. Baker is critiquing the most well-known version of my conversion story, as found in the bestseller, Surprised by Truth (edited by Patrick Madrid, San Diego: Basilica Press, 1994). My original draft (Pat added a few words to it here and there) is found on my website.

Dave Armstrong was an ex-Protestant now a Roman Catholic convert since 1991. Armstrong is a published and televised Catholic apologist.

I’ve never been on television, doing apologetics. It’s curious, then, where Dr. Baker ‘found” this supposed “fact.” Perhaps if he reads this, he can enlighten us all.

He is one of the leading spokesmen for The Catholic Answers website.

The organization that Karl Keating founded is called Catholic Answers. I am not now, nor have I ever been, a spokesman for it (“leading” or otherwise). The folks at CA are my apologetics colleagues, and I have great respect for them. I’ve worked with CA on radio, in their magazine and with one book of mine that they published. But I’ve never been employed by them, and none of this makes me a “spokesman.”

He has had a website/blog, Biblical Evidence for Catholicism, since 1997. Armstrong is the author of over forty-five books such as A Biblical Defense of Catholicism, The Catholic Verses, and Bible Proofs for Catholic Truths.

It’s refreshing to see that Dr. Baker got a few facts right.

His testimony of apostasy to Rome begins with the beginnings of his childhood.

On page 242 of Surprised By Truth, Armstrong gives a revealing admission that should immediately raise a red flag to the Bible discerning Christian. He tells of visiting a fundamentalist Baptist church where he says he went up to the altar and got “saved.” But he doubts the genuineness of this simply because he lacked “the knowledge or force of will required.” First of all spiritual regeneration is not up to the exertion of human will. Scripture says it is the sovereign work of the Holy Spirit quickening the dead sinner and giving the person the supernatural will and ability to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ for salvation. Those who are truly saved and born-again by the Spirit of God are given the divine power to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ “which are “born [again] not of blood [family heritage] not the will of flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God” (John 1:12–13).

This is really stupid and inane. No  one (last of all, me) is denying that salvation is by God’s grace alone. This is Catholic teaching. It’s right in the Council of Trent: if someone doesn’t want to believe my report. Every good thing whatsoever that we do is entirely caused and enabled by God’s prior grace. That’s not the issue here at all, and Dr. Baker distorts what I said (about an incident when I was 10 or 11 and abysmally ignorant of theology) to try to force it into a denial of sola gratia. To do such is dishonest sophistry.

This goes beyond Protestant-Catholic differences as regards justification, regeneration, being born again, and salvation. It’s simple common sense. I was merely saying that I didn’t know any theology at all at that point (having been raised as a nominal Methodist). I didn’t know what I was doing. I went up front because my father did, and possibly my brother Gerry. It was an impulse action (with “peer pressure” so to speak): not done in either knowledge or full sincerity. Now, it wasn’t in Surprised by Truth, but in my longest account of my conversion (in my book on that topic, and also published on my website, in ten parts), I gave a little bit more detail about this incident, in Part I:

I went up front to get “saved,” perfectly sincere (I even talked about it later with my friends), but with nowhere near the knowledge or force of will required (by more thoughtful evangelical standards) to carry out this temporary resolve. The person up front asked me to recite John 3:16, and I knew a little of it, but not the whole thing, so he had to finish it off with me.

Now, it’a beyond our purview here to get into how Protestants view such altar calls. Most would not agree with Dr. Baker that a person does nothing at all as regards salvation. Most would say we have to accept (an act of will and a “decision”) what is entirely by God’s grace, just as a prisoner accepts a pardon. We have to know something of what it entails and means. Extremely few Protestants would, for example, accept a comatose person up at the altar and declare he or she is “saved” because, after all, we humans do nothing whatever when we get saved. No! The person has to be conscious and to at least know what he is doing.

Armstrong starts off on a completely unbiblical note when assuming spiritual rebirth is dependent on the exertion of human will power.

I never claimed any such thing. This is a lie.

Hence, though he says he made a decision for Christ in 1969, there was no actual spiritual rebirth that took place, as is evidenced by the fact Mr.
Armstrong then goes on to recount how he got deeply involved with occult activity after his so-called conversion to Christ.

I did not say I made such a decision in 1969. I stated the opposite. I say that I did in 1977, when I knew what I was doing, and understood evangelical  Christian soteriology. As he himself noted, in 1969 I had neither sufficient “knowledge or force of will required” and in the same paragraph I also called it a “temporary resolve.” And now, since Dr. Baker wants to make an issue of extreme [Calvinist] monergism, as if the Christian believer does nothing at all when they are saved or born again (in Protestant theology), I shall point out some inconvenient Bible passages that contradict his extreme, fringe position (even among his fellow Protestants); passages that show that we do indeed cooperate with God’s freely given grace for salvation. God causes all of it, but we still do something:

Acts 2:40 (RSV) And he testified with many other words and exhorted them, saying, “Save yourselves from this crooked generation.”

Philippians 2:12-13 . . . work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; [13] for God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.

Philippians 3:10-12 . . . and may share his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, [11] that if possible I may attain the resurrection from the dead. [12] Not that I have already obtained this or am already perfect; but I press on to make it my own, because Christ Jesus has made me his own.

1 Timothy 4:16 Take heed to yourself and to your teaching; hold to that, for by so doing you will save both yourself and your hearers.

Beyond this, the Bible often refers to our “working with God” or even being “co-workers” with Him:

Mark 16:20 And they went forth and preached everywhere, while the Lord worked with them and confirmed the message by the signs that attended it. Amen.

1 Corinthians 3:9 For we are God’s fellow workers; you are God’s field, God’s building.

1 Corinthians 15:10 But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace toward me was not in vain. On the contrary, I worked harder than any of them, though it was not I, but the grace of God which is with me.

1 Corinthians 15:58 . . . always abounding in the work of the Lord, knowing that in the Lord your labor is not in vain.

2 Corinthians 6:1 Working together with him, then, we entreat you not to accept the grace of God in vain.

Bottom line: my description of what happened in 1969 is perfectly biblical and reasonable, as is my “synergistic” soteriology, because it is entirely, thoroughly biblical, as shown. If Dr. Baker wants Bible, I gave him plenty of that (here and in my previous reply); but anti-Catholics are fully capable and willing to casually reject any part of the Bible that doesn’t conform with false tenets in their theology, derived from mere “traditions of men.”

This is made all the more evident when he does admit on page 242 that he was “like most nominal Christians.”

Exactly. I was referring to the early 70s, and back to my prior nominalistic Methodism. It’s understood (among serious, committed Christians) that “nominal Christian” means one who in fact is not a Christian, or who technically is (by various criteria: notably, baptism), but is living as if Christianity wasn’t true, or as if there is no God. That was me, till 1977. Dr. Baker skips over portions where I describe exactly how ignorant of theology I was:

. . . for the next nine years [1968-1977] rarely attended church. (p. 241)

I began to comprehend [in 1977], with the help of my brother, the heart of the gospel for the first time: what the Cross and the Passion meant, and some of the basic points of theology and soteriology (the theology of salvation) that I had never thought about before. I also learned that Jesus was not only the Son of God, but God the Son, the Second Person of the Trinity, which, incredibly, I had either not heard previously, or simply didn’t comprehend if I had heard it. I started to read the Bible seriously for the first time in my life . . . (pp. 243-244)

Thus, I was technically a Christian in terms of being baptized as a Methodist, as a baby in 1958, but I had neither interest nor commitment till 1977; thus, I was what is called a “nominal Christian” during those years. But I have also described the period as one in which I was a “practical atheist”. The late Presbyterian pastor R. C. Sproul described this condition as “when we live as if there were no God.” Bingo! That was me, too, up to 1977, and largely all the way up to 1980 when I was 22 and got really serious and “fired-up” about God.

Belief in the Gospel for salvation is a one-time experience: you can only be born-again once, and after that you are regenerated and made into a child of God for all time (see John 3).

Catholics agree. Regeneration occurs at [usually, infant] baptism. This is when Catholics believe one is “born again.” But we also believe that one can be filled with the Holy Spirit to a greater degree (as in the sacrament of confirmation), and commit oneself to Christ anew; reaffirm one’s discipleship (including, notably, in confession). I had a profound conversion experience and serious commitment to Jesus Christ in 1977, and again, far more powerfully and actually ongoing ever since, in 1980.

This is emphasized because Armstrong says he got saved again in July of 1977 (page 244).

I did no such thing. I never said 1969 was a legitimate instance of “being saved” (even as evangelical Protestants understand that). I said that I didn’t know enough on that occasion to make such a commitment or even accept God’s free gift of salvation. Nor did I say that I “got saved again” in 1977. This is an outrageous interpretation of my words. Perhaps that’s why Dr. Baker doesn’t actually cite them, so the reader can learn how I actually interpreted my experience in 1977 (he would rather spin and distort them):

It was the combination of my depression and newfound knowledge of Christianity that caused me to decide to follow Jesus as my Lord and Savior in a much more serious fashion, in July 1977 — what I would still regard as a “conversion to Christ,” and what Evangelicals view as the “born-again” experience or getting “saved.” I continue to look at this as a valid and indispensable spiritual step, even though, as a Catholic, I would, of course, interpret it in a somewhat different way than I did formerly.

Note, then, that I didn’t state here that I got “saved again.” I called it a “conversion to Christ” and explained that evangelicals think it is being born again or getting saved. I agreed with the latter description in 1977 but not now. I continue to believe that it was a valid and authentic conversion to Christ, in terms of committing my life fully to Him as a disciple.

But then he says he went lukewarm again only to yield his life completely to God in August of 1980. So it appears he got “saved” three times in a period of eleven years. Obviously, his understanding and experience of spiritual regeneration is questionable because the Bible teaches spiritual rebirth occurs once and that happens when true repentance and faith in the Gospel happens.

Let’s get this straight. The Catholic view is that I was regenerated in 1958 upon my infant baptism. I became nominal in practice up till age 18, when I had a serious conversion to Christ and committed myself to Him. Three years later I had an even more powerful, Spirit-filled renewal of my commitment in 1977, and that has lasted ever since.

In my former evangelical view I eventually came to believe in adult, “believer’s” baptism, and so did not accept my 1958 baptism on that basis. According to that outlook, I was ‘saved” in 1977, experienced a powerful “baptism in the Spirit” in 1980, and also decided to be “baptized” by immersion in 1982.

Neither view (my view then or now) entails this nonsense that I supposedly believed that I was “‘saved’ three times.” We used to see people going up to the altar every week to get “saved” at the Assemblies of God church I attended from 1982 to 1986. I used to mock and make fun of that precisely because I believed that you could only be saved once. Catholics believe, too, though, that one can fall from grace and salvation (and return back to Christ if they repent). And they do because that is a biblical position as well.

Armstrong’s devoted interest in Roman Catholicism began when he noticed how Catholics in the pro-life organization Operation Rescue were more committed than his fellow evangelicals (page 245).

I didn’t say they were “more committed.” I said they were “just as committed.” And I thought that and was surprised by it, because, as I wrote: “I had met countless Evangelicals who exhibited what I thought to be a serious walk with Christ, but rarely ever Catholics of like intensity.”

Had his interest been biblical in nature, he would have seen that the particular doctrines of Roman Catholicism militate against the teaching of the Scriptures. His interest was not biblically based, but determined only by the fact the Catholics seemed more dedicated than evangelicals. This is a dubious way to determine what is true and in keeping with the Word of God.

I stated no such thing. This is lying spin again. As I said, I didn’t say they were “more” dedicated in the first place. This was merely the spark that got me curious about Catholicism, and it provided an opportunity to talk to educated, committed Catholics for virtually the first time in my life (I can only think of one such person whom I met and talked to prior to that). All Dr. Baker wants to do is mock serious Catholics as infidels or apostate. I talked to them as human beings, because I was not anti-Catholic like Dr. Baker, though I did firmly believe that Protestantism was vastly superior.

It so happens that the issues I studied most during my conversion process were moral and historical (contraception, the religious disputes of the 16th century, and development of doctrine). But it doesn’t follow that Scripture study was not part of that. I also read (eight months before I was persuaded) books like Karl Adam’s Spirit of Catholicism (I mentioned it on p. 246) which has a great deal of Scripture. The only difference was that I was reading a Catholic interpretation for the first time. If we only read one side of a great debate, then of course we will accept that side uncritically. I believe in reading (and understanding) both sides. Bigots and narrow-minded people read only one side, or else read the “other” side in such a bigoted and biased way that they can’t even fully comprehend it, in their fog of disdain and contempt.

The next stage of Armstrong’s drift into apostasy to Rome occurred when he met and talked with two Catholic individuals who challenged him on papal and conciliar infallibility. This led Armstrong to embark on an extensive reading program of Catholic apologetic books, tracts, and materials from Catholic Answers. Never once did Armstrong hold to the reasonable doubt that there was another opposing side that has successfully answered the unbiblical claims Rome makes for itself to be totally false, which has been demonstrated from Scripture and objective history.

This is complete bull[manure]: an out-and-out lie. Far from reading only Catholic stuff, I sought out the very best anti-infallibility material I could find, because I was passionately opposed to infallibility as an outrageous, ridiculous notion. Dr. Baker completely ignores half of a long paragraph in which I described my reading of Protestant or Catholic anti-infallibility materials, so that he can hoodwink his readers into believing that I only read Catholic stuff. Here it is:

Their claims for the Church, particularly papal and conciliar infallibility, challenged me to plunge into a massive research project on that subject. I believed I had found many errors and contradictions throughout history [i.e., in Catholic doctrine]. Later I realized, though, that my many “examples” didn’t even fall into the category of infallible pronouncements, as defined by the Vatican Council of 1870. I was also a bit dishonest because I would knowingly overlook strong historical facts which confirmed the Catholic position, such as the widespread early acceptance of the Real Presence, the authority of the bishop, and the communion of the saints.

In the meantime, I embarked on an extensive reading program of  Catholic apologetics books, as well as the many tracts and booklets produced by Catholic Answers. (pp. 245-246)

Dr. Baker completely (shall we say?) re-imagines the approach I took during this inquisitive year (1990), making out that I was uncritically swallowing Catholic teaching because of “smells and bells” and being impressed by a few friends in Operation Rescue (and ignoring the Bible all the while). Nothing could be further from the truth. I was fighting ferociously.  And I clearly stated this in the account. But Dr. Baker chose to ignore it because it didn’t fit the myth that he sought to invent about my conversion journey:

My Catholic friend, John, tiring of my constant rhetoric about Catholic errors and [unscriptural] additions through the centuries, suggested that I read [John Henry] Newman’s Essay on the Development of Christian Doctrine. This book demolished the whole schema of Church history which I had constructed. I thought, typically, that early Christianity was Protestant and that Catholicism was a later corruption (although I placed the collapse in the late Middle Ages rather than the time of Constantine in the fourth century). . . .

Martin Luther, so I reckoned, had discovered in “sola Scriptura” the means to scrape the accumulated Catholic barnacles off of the original lean and clean Christian “ship.” (pp. 248-249; bracketed words were Pat Madrid’s additions, and brown-colored words are my own that are not in the published book)

In my much-longer, ten-part version of my story (in Part VII), I go into much greater depth about what I was reading and how zealously I fought and raged against infallibility in the middle of 1990:

I’d say, half tongue-in-cheek, “Okay, you guys can be the Church, or Church, but you’re not infallible.” I thought that was totally out of the question: it just couldn’t be: there were too many errors, and there was the scandal of the Inquisition, and so forth.

My friend John McAlpine, whom I had met in the pro-life movement, and with whom I greatly enjoyed conversing, stunned me one night at my ecumenical discussion group when he claimed that the Catholic Church had never contradicted itself in any of its dogmas.

This, to me, was self-evidently incredible and a priori implausible, and so I embarked immediately on a massive research project designed to debunk once and for all this far-fetched notion that any Christian body could even rationally claim infallibility, let alone actually possess it. Spurred on by this “intellectual agitation,” I visited the library at Sacred Heart Seminary in Detroit, trying to shoot down the Catholic Church.

I quickly found some of the leading polemics against Catholic infallibility, such as the Irish Anglican anti-Catholic George Salmon (1819-1904), author of The Infallibility of the Church (1888) and Johann Joseph Ignaz von Döllinger (1799-1890), the German historian who rejected the ex cathedra declaration of papal infallibility and formed the Old Catholic schismatic group. His books, Letters of Quirinus and Letters of Janus, were written during the First Vatican Council in 1870.

Salmon’s work has been refuted decisively twice, by B.C. Butler, in his The Church and Infallibility: A Reply to the Abridged “Salmon” (New York, Sheed & Ward, 1954), and also in a series of articles in The Irish Ecclesiastical Record, in 1901 and 1902.

Yet Protestant apologists Norman Geisler and Ralph MacKenzie still claimed in 1995, in a major critique of Catholicism, Roman Catholics and Evangelicals: Agreements and Differences (Grand Rapids, Michigan: Baker Books, p. 206; cf. p. 459) that Salmon’s book has “never really been answered by the Catholic Church” and is the “classic refutation of papal infallibility.”

Prominent professional anti-Catholic James White, in the same year, claimed that I must have never been familiar with the best Protestant arguments against infallibility and Catholicism in general — hence my eventual conversion on flimsy grounds.

The truth was quite otherwise: the above works are the cream of the crop of this particular line of thought, as evidenced by Geisler and MacKenzie’s citation of both Salmon and [Hans] Küng as “witnesses” for their case (ibid., pp. 206-207). Church historian Döllinger’s heretical opinions are also often utilized by Eastern Orthodox apologists as arguments against papal infallibility.

Using these severely biased, untrustworthy sources, I found the typical arguments used: for example, Pope Honorius, who supposedly was a heretic. I produced two long papers containing difficult “problems” of Catholic history and alleged contradictions and so forth (just as atheists love to do with the Bible), to “torment” my Catholic friends at the group discussions. . . .

As I look back, I wasn’t being objective; I was engaging in special pleading, where one goes in with a preconceived notion and tries to find only what fits in with it. What I was trying to do, and the methodology I used, was ultimately an intellectually dishonest effort. I proceeded with my hostile research, cavalierly assuming beforehand that the early Church was much more Protestant than Catholic. I now know, as an apologist, that there are good, solid Catholic answers to all these so-called charges of heresy and massive Catholic doctrinal self-contradiction.

I was behaving very much like the big bad (cynically chuckling) “Catholic-slayer” and gadfly, who brings up all the “embarrassing” facts of the scandalous history of the Beast (though I was never anti-Catholic, just thoroughly Protestant). I was almost like two persons in one: I had great respect for Catholic moral teachings, but not nearly as much for what I thought was its checkered doctrinal and “behavioral” history.

. . . when we discussed infallibility (historical issues), I mocked and acted like an atheist who thinks he has found 3,384 contradictions on the Bible: almost all obviously fallacious when scrutinized by someone who understands the hermeneutics and exegesis of Holy Scripture. I didn’t have a clue as to how to properly interpret Church history.

We observe this sort of skeptical, “the Church was massively wrong throughout history” talk all the time, even within the Church, among so-called “progressives,” who are properly classified as modernists, dissidents, or theological liberals; for instance, Hans Küng and his book Infallible? An Inquiry (1971): another book I seized upon when warring against infallibility. There are answers to these revisionist accounts, but unfortunately, Catholics aren’t aware of them, by and large. Fr. Joseph Costanzo wrote a thorough refutation of Küng‘s book that is available online.

Apparently, for Armstrong, Roman Catholicism, not the infallible Word of God, has everything well thought-out for him, so that his apostasy to Rome was assured (page 246).

I do think that great Christian men and women through the centuries (folks like, say, The Church Fathers, and Augustine and Aquinas) have a great deal more wisdom than I do myself. But I don’t dichotomize Holy Scripture against them. It’s all a harmonious whole: Scripture-Tradition-Church. Only Scripture is inspired, but not only Scripture is infallible.

What is conspicuously noticeable from Armstrong’s testimony is that his faith is in Roman Catholicism and not the Gospel and the Holy Scriptures—a serious problem, indeed.

As I said, there is no dichotomy there. When I started very seriously studying the biblical criteria for Catholic belief (immediately after I was persuaded that Catholicism was true), in the effort to explain my conversion to my Protestant friends (what eventually became my first book), I discovered that biblical support of Catholicism overwhelming, and indeed it has been always so ever since.

One of my specialties as a Catholic apologist is “biblical evidence for Catholicism.” It’s such a blessing to be able to constantly observe the invariable superiority of the Catholic arguments from Scripture, in instances where Protestants oppose one or other of our doctrines. I’m more “biblical” than ever. Now I don’t have to ignore large portions of Scripture that don’t fit into some man-made theology. I have loved and immersed myself in Holy Scripture for now 41 years. It’s wonderful.

One intriguing factor for Armstrong that lured him to Rome was the enormous complexity of Catholicism. He even admits that Rome making a complex Gospel is a positive thing. He should have been concerned because the Gospel, though profound in its theological truths, is a simple message. Paul warns believers to beware of the work of the devil who seeks to corrupt the simplicity of Christ and the Gospel (2 Corinthians 11:3). The devil does this by adding other elements besides faith alone in Christ for salvation—and this is what Rome has done by corrupting the Gospel with other things they deem necessary for salvation—the sacraments, indulgences, submission to the pope, the Mass, and on and on has Rome corrupted the simple Gospel of salvation by faith in Christ alone. Armstrong simply traded in the biblical Gospel for the complex, unbiblical Gospel of Rome.

This is laughable and dumb (and ideally should be ignored, but — heaven help me – I’m a “completist”). He makes up this fairy-tale version of what allegedly (particularly) drove me on to the Catholic Church from these few words of mine: “it was a marvelously complex and consistent belief system unparalleled by anything I had ever encountered in Evangelicalism” (p. 246).

On page 247, Mr. Armstrong says that what further turned him away from Protestantism was their view of contraception. In terms of orthodox biblical doctrine, contraception is not a salvation issue, and to make it a major reason for accepting Roman Catholicism and shunning Bible-based Christianity is wrongly making a secondary issue in the church into a major one. The Bible nowhere mentions contraception as a necessary doctrine to believe for salvation.

It was always considered grave sin by all Christians, including Calvin and Luther. To get such a thing wrong, and to accept it at the late date of 1930 was equal parts shocking and absurd to me. It shook me to my core.

Armstrong should look into his own house and see that many Catholic layman and clergy have different views on the subject of contraception.

Yes they do. So what? All that proves is that many Catholics pick and choose what they want to believe. In other words, they think like Protestants in that respect. I’m interested in biblical and apostolic truth; not taking a head count.

But being the good Roman Catholic that he is, Armstrong agrees with the unscriptural papal doctrine that belief in and use of contraception is to commit a mortal sin, and hence to be outside of God’s saving grace in the eyes of the Catholic Church. As with many man-made traditions of Romanism, the Bible does not teach this anywhere in its pages.

I beg to differ. Both the Bible and the early Church are utterly opposed to it:

Contraception: Early Church Teaching (William Klimon)

Biblical Evidence Against Contraception

Bible on the Blessing of [Many] Children

Why Did God Kill Onan? (The Bible on Contraception)

Dialogue: Why Did God Kill Onan? (Contraception)

Biblical Data Against Contraception: Onan’s Sin and Punishment: a Concise “Catholic” Argument

The beauty and mystical qualities of Roman Catholic theology was the tipping point for Armstrong’s conversion to Catholicism (page 248). Here again his decision was not based on a sound biblical theology but strictly on the terms of what was aesthetically pleasing to his religious pallet.

This is one of many distortions that are getting very tiresome. This portion reads as follows: “My attraction to the beauty of the Church’s moral and mystical theology facilitated my conversion process.” Dr. Baker doesn’t even accurately interpret that. To say that something “facilitated” another thing is not the same as making it a “tipping point.” It just means that it helped it along. Merriam-Webster Online defines “facilitated” as “to make easierhelp bring about.”  “Tipping point” as defined by the same source, is a much more momentous thing: “the critical point in a situation, process, or system beyond which a significant and often unstoppable effect or change takes place.”

Dr. Baker is doing the tired canard of “smells and bells” and non-rational, non-biblical aspects as supposedly the things that drive folks to the Catholic Church: corrupt and out of their right minds. He makes this one sentence far more important than it is in the story (because it fits his cynical agenda). He also does a clever bait-and switch, becausemystical qualities of Roman Catholic theology” is not at all the same thought or idea as “beauty of . . . mystical theology.” Not  all Catholic theology is “mystical.” Mystical theology is only one type of theology.

There is an additional slight problem here in that I didn’t even write this portion. Patrick Madrid added it (and this is why I have never cared for those editor’s additions, because it is my story). What I actually wrote in my draft is: “Moral theology and intangible mystical elements began the ball of conversion rolling for me, and increasingly rang true deep within my soul . . .” [italics added now] The fact that these things came at the very beginning of my journey is another proof that they were in no way a “tipping point.” The tipping point was clearly development of doctrine. Dr. Baker didn’t know what he didn’t read, but what he did read, he clearly deliberately distorted. And that stinks.

Armstrong goes on to say how reading Essay on the Development of Christian Doctrine by Cardinal John Henry Newman completed his conversion to Roman Catholicism (pages 248–249). Armstrong lauds Newman for showing in this work how Roman Catholicism was a constant all throughout the history of the church, and thus is the original faith Jesus passed on to Peter and the apostles. Armstrong’s inability to critically read this work by comparing it first with Scripture and an unbiased view of church history is quite obvious. Newman’s thesis is full of holes both theologically and historically. Rather than get into a full blown analysis and critique of Newman’s book, this author would refer his readers to several excellent critiques of Newman’s flawed thesis that expose his logical fallacies and theological errors in trying to say Roman Catholicism is the true faith, over and against to so-called recent development of Protestantism. 29

[Footnote] 29. Dr. Norman L. Geisler, “An Evaluation of John Henry Newman’s Essay on the Development of Christian Doctrine” . Retrieved on December 20, 2017; J.B. Mozley, The Theory  of Development: A Criticism of Dr. Newman’s Essay on the Development of Christian Doctrine (Oxford: Rivingtons, 1878). etrieved on December 20, 2017.

It never occurred to Dave Armstrong that Newman’s book could be wrong in its claims for Roman Catholicism, because his mind was already made up by that time, and he was only interested in finding authors who already agreed with his acceptance of Catholicism.

The above fuller account of how vigorously I fought infallibility puts the lie to this fairy-tale. Dr. Baker cites Norman Geisler in his footnote 29. I already cited Geisler above, saying [in his 1995 book about Catholicism] that George Salmon’s book, The Infallibility of the Church is  the “classic refutation of papal infallibility.” He also cites Salmon in the paper that Dr. Baker mentions in his footnote. It is also considered one of the big “refutations” of Newman’s theory of development.

I read Salmon’s book in the middle of 1990 because I was fighting vigorously against the Catholic Church in that respect. That’s the actual truth of what occurred. I had found a “refutation” of Newman that is considered one of the best. But here comes mind-reading Dr. Baker stating thatArmstrong’s inability to critically read this work by comparing it first with Scripture and an unbiased view of church history is quite obvious.”

Right. George Salmon was a blowhard sophist and dishonest historical revisionist, and I discovered that when I actually read Newman. But I did indeed read both sides before making up my mind. I changed my mind (which is what honest thinkers do when confronted with better evidences and reasoning). Later I wrote about how Salmon lied and lied about Newman, and above I linked to not just one, but two thorough refutations of his fanciful, special pleading nonsense.

Armstrong goes on to impugn reformer Martin Luther with the standard Roman Catholic defamatory arguments and accusations that have little historical truth or accuracy to them (pages 250–251).

No arguments are offered here, so it deserves no further comment, other than to note that I am so “anti-Luther” that I put together an entire book of his quotations, showing where he agrees with Catholics.

Armstrong cites the six-volume diatribe against Luther written by Counter- Reformation Jesuit priest Hartmann Grisar.

If by this, Dr. Baker means that Grisar lived in the 16th century, he’s wrong. His book is from the early 20th century.

From there, Armstrong says Luther was only a “revolutionary” who created a “novel theology” instead of a reformer that recovered the true Christian faith of the pre-Nicene period of the church. First, Armstrong only did his research on the side that favors Roman Catholicism and slanders the Reformers like Martin Luther.

That’s not true. Luther was my hero as a Protestant. I was an apologist then, too, and obviously read Luther. Dr. Baker mentions Bainton’s famous (and most well-known) biography [Here I Stand]. I remember reading that while my wife was driving, on the way to our honeymoon, which was in October 1984: six years before my conversion.

Secondly, he should have further read more balanced biographies of Luther and his theology. But he chose not to because he was already biased for Rome, and anyone that spoke truthfully against their false doctrines was verboten.

Yeah, I did, as just shown. The bias here is Dr. Baker’s, and those Protestants who refuse to read any Catholic material about what happened during the so-called “Reformation.” My cardinal sin was to actually read both sides. I was supposed to only read one side (as if that is honest investigation). But Bainton was actually pretty fair. He even mentioned that Luther (like Calvin) favored the death penalty for heresy [see another book where he also mentions this]: a fact that many many Protestants are unaware of or will deny (literally refuse to believe) in the face of the documented facts.

Armstrong could have also read more fair and accurate books on Luther that treat him with a balanced view, written by such authors as Roland H. Bainton, John Warwick Montgomery, Nathan Busenitz, and Martin Brecht.

I have all those (save Busenitz) in my library, and many other primary and secondary works about Luther. I also have Luther’s Works (55 volumes) in hardcover.

History has shown Luther was no novel theologian. He possessed an encyclopedic understanding of the Early Church Fathers and knew he was on solid ground when rediscovering that salvation and justification by faith alone was also taught by many of them, a truth that had long been obfuscated and denied by the church of Rome for over one thousand years. 30

I have written a ton of things about this, as seen on my Luther and Lutheranism web pages. I show where we disagree with Luther and why, and also where we (thankfully) have some significant agreements.

[Footnote] 30. There is plenty of scholarly documentation disproving Armstrong and Rome’s belabored slander Luther made up the Protestant Reformation, and that, instead, what he brought to the theological forefront was in fact taught by Jesus, the New Testament, and the early church fathers. See the following works proving this: Nathan Busenitz, Long Before Luther (Chicago: Moody Publishers, 2017); Terry L. Johnson, The Case For Traditional Protestantism: The Solas of the Reformation (Carlisle, PA: Banner of Truth, 2004; Anthony Dodgers, “Lutherans and the Early church fathers” at https://lutheranreformation.org/history/lutherans-early-churchfathers/Retrieved on December 20, 2017. One can peruse many of the Reformation articles on the Protestant doctrine of justification by faith alone originating from Scripture and taught in the early church compiled by Dr. C. Matthew McMahon at http://www.apuritansmind.com/justification/the-early-church-and-justification-compiled-by-dr-c-matthew-mcmahon/. Retrieved on December 20, 2017.

Where Catholics and Lutherans disagree, the Church fathers support Catholic views, as I show in many papers on my Lutheranism and Fathers of the Church web pages. I’ve also edited three books of the Church fathers’ writings (one / two / three): showing that they support Catholic positions all down the line. This includes (very much so) St. Augustine: Protestants’ favorite Church father, by far.

Armstrong’s hypocrisy is never more seen than here. Despite some of Luther’s personality flaws, Mr. Armstrong apparently has no issue with the terrible crimes the Roman Catholic popes and its clergy have committed for centuries. The Roman Catholic Church reeks of criminal behavior. We have the papal pornocracy of the tenth century, the Crusades, the Inquisition, along with the sordid and massive crimes and felonious behavior of past popes, and the ongoing, pervasive problem of pedophilia in the priesthood, which far exceedingly eclipses any personal foibles of Luther. The sword cuts both ways, Mr. Armstrong—and history colorfully records its far, far worse for the corrupt self-serving papacy and its priests than for any of the Protestant Reformers.

I have a web page about that, too. And I dare to also have a page about Protestant persecution and intolerance and sins, and lots of related material on my Luther, Lutheranism, Calvin, Calvinism, and Anti-Catholicism web pages. I write about things such as ridiculously inflated, made-up figures of deaths in the Inquisition, and the myriad lies in Foxe’s Book of Martyrs. Nice try, though. I’m the very last person Dr. Baker wants to run into if the discussion turns to  “skeletons in the closet.” Surprise! Protestants have plenty of their own, too, believe you me.

Even in the disturbing light of the infamous history of the Roman Catholic Church and her popes, Mr. Armstrong has the unmitigated gall to then say that it was out of “an intellectual and moral duty” he abandoned Bible-based evangelical Protestantism to embrace the apostasy of Roman Catholicism. 

That’s correct: based on the Bible, history, and reason. There are sinners everywhere. Dr. Baker won’t be able to escape that fact. It’s a thing called original sin; and another called concupiscence.

On the contrary, had he the intellectual honesty and a real moral conscience, Mr. Armstrong could in no way embrace the unscriptural mess that is Rome—he did so for personal, emotional, and aesthetic reasons, not ones based on biblical truth and moral integrity.

These are flat-out lies and slanderous accusations; calumnies. I’ve told the real story here and in many other accounts of my conversion.

Armstrong fools no one who has the Holy Spirit and the Scriptures at hand to read by His illuminating guidance. And from that platform,
Armstrong’s decision was an act of apostasy and rejection of the biblical gospel for the counterfeit Gospel of Rome.

Dr. Baker is welcome to try to refute one or more of my hundreds of articles defending Catholic theology from Holy Scripture (and early Church history, as the case may be). And I predict that his performance — should he decide to do so — will (almost certainly) be as pitiful and pathetic as what any fair-minded reader can immediately observe of his foolish and silly efforts, above.

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Photo credit: The Whore of Babylon; sitting on the seven-headed beast, St John and the angel looking on from a cloud in top right corner, by Hans Burgkmair the Elder (1473-1531). Colorized; from a series of 21 woodcuts of the Apocalypse for Martin Luther’s translation of the New Testament (Augsburg: S. Otmar, 1523). [public domain / Wikimedia Commons]

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2020-05-11T11:10:24-04:00

David T. King

Anti-Catholic author Pastor David T. King has tried to cast aspersions on Cardinal Newman, by citing his former anti-Catholic opinions and suggesting (ever so subtly) that he “should have known better” (wink, wink) than to convert.

He does this in a paper called “A Discussion on Newman’s Pre- and Post-Conversion Positions on the Historical Legitimacy of Roman Catholic Patristic Work” — originally from a discussion on Eric Svendsen’s NTRMin Areopagus Discussion Board. Here’s a sampling:

Newman came to realize that Rome’s claims could not be substantiated on the basis of patristic evidence or the history of the early Church. Thus he found refuge in his “development of doctrine,” which got Rome off the hook from having to substantiate its claims by means of the early Church.

Translation of the condescending rhetoric: “Newman (sharp as he was) knew the Fathers and the early Church precluded belief in Catholicism, so he came up with this rationalization and canard of ‘development of doctrine’ to explain away facts which should have kept him Protestant”.

But if development proceeds from the seed to the tree (e.g., acorn to the Oak), there has to be the seed from the beginning. But the anachronistic planting of seeds that were never there in the first place is just as barren as the field in which they are imagined.

Translation: “I will engage in self-serving circular reasoning and simply deny that there were even seeds of Catholic doctrines in the early Church, and forget by an act of willful blindness that if I am looking for absence of beliefs in the early Church, my own Protestant view vis-a-vis Church history is doomed to shipwreck. But we mustn’t ever apply the same standards to ourselves as we do to dreaded, deceitful Rome.”

This is the same guy who was trying to argue (quite laughably and ridiculously) that Cardinal Newman was a modernist and that Pope St. Pius X thought him to be so. He wrote:

I think Newman’s theory is rejected by Pius X. And simply assuming he’s not condemning the theory of development of dogma under the language of “the evolution of dogma” is avoiding reality. I can’t play in that kind of fantasy world.

Contrast Newman’s theory of development with the words of Pius X as given in The Oath Against the Errors of Modernism . . . You’ll do your best to explain away these words of Pius X, and do you want to know why? Because you have a precommitment to your erroneous theory, and no amount of historical evidence is going to pry you loose.

It’s a case [of] historical reality vs. historical fantasy. You keep making claims you know nothing about, . . . repeated exposure of grandiose claims made in ignorance . . . It’s this kind of posture that is so typical of the average Roman apologist.

You can weave the web all you desire, but the theory of development is denied and condemned under the language of “the evolution of dogma” by Pius X.

I dismantled all of this ahistorical nonsense and bilge from Pastor King in this paper: Was Cardinal Newman a Modernist? Pope St. Pius X vs. Anti-Catholic Polemicist David T. King (Development, not Evolution of Doctrine) [3-6-02]. After that, he never attempted to debate me about Catholic history or anything else, ever again. Good riddance . . .

And this is the guy who wrote about Catholics in Svendsen’s forum:

I already have a very low view of the integrity of non-Protestants in general, and you aren’t helping to improve it.

[M]ost of you are too dishonest to admit what you really think. (4-15-03)

[T]hose who wish to ignore the evidence of the fathers themselves, which I have repeatedly found to be typical of the average Roman apologist like yourself. Ignore the evidence and belittle it. I guess that’s what works in the world of Roman apologetics. (6-3-03)

It is a typical Roman Catholic tactic to misrepresent one’s opponent purposely in order to “name and claim” a victory. (6-5-03)

I have collected dumb, clueless, ant-factual, fictional things that anti-Catholics have stated about Cardinal Newman (someone’s gotta do it):

Dr. Eric Svendsen

[Newman’s theory of development is] a concept pulled out of the hat by Newman . . .

We don’t believe in the Roman Catholic acorn notion of development of doctrine. Nothing — absolutely nothing — added to the teaching of Scripture is BINDING on the conscience of the believer . . . [note: that would dispose of the NT canon and, with it, the Protestant formal principle of sola Scriptura] No serious inquirer, who is not already committed to Rome, upon reading Kelly or Pelikan will come away with the notion that the early church is the “acorn” for modern Romanism.

William Webster

The papal encyclical, Satis Cognitum, written by Pope Leo XIII in 1896, is a commentary on and papal confirmation of the teachings of Vatican I. As to the issue of doctrinal development, Leo makes it quite clear that Vatican I leaves no room for such a concept in its teachings. (The Repudiation of the Doctrine of Development as it Relates to the Papacy by Vatican I and Pope Leo XIII).

[T]his clear lack of patristic consensus led Rome to embrace a new theory in the late nineteenth century to explain its teachings — the theory initiated by John Henry Newman known as the development of doctrine.

. . . to circumvent the lack of patristic witness for the distinctive Roman Catholic dogmas, Newman set forth his theory of development, which was embraced by the Roman Catholic Church.

. . . But, with Newman, Rome redefined the theory of development and promoted a new concept of tradition. One that was truly novel. Truly novel in the sense that it was completely foreign to the perspective of Vincent and the theologians of Trent and Vatican I who speak of the unanimous consent of the fathers.

. . . Vatican I, for example, teaches that the papacy was full blown from the very beginning and was, therefore, not subject to development over time. In this new theory Rome moved beyond the historical principle of development as articulated by Vincent and, for all practical purposes, eliminated any need for historical validation. She now claimed that it was not necessary that a particular doctrine be taught explicitly by the early Church.” (Rome’s New and Novel Concept of Tradition: Living Tradition (Viva Voce – Whatever We Say) — A Repudiation of the Patristic Concept of Tradition).

See my take-down of Webster’s altogether spurious and factually erroneous claims: William Webster’s Misunderstanding of Development of Doctrine [2000]. I also did a second rebuttal of Webster’s intellectually bankrupt silliness: William Webster vs. Tradition, Development, & Truth [4-10-03].

George Salmon

George Salmon was prominent 19th-century Anglican contra-Catholic polemicist who clashed with Newman, and who is a frequently cited inspiration and source for the revisionist “historical” contra-Catholic polemics of today.

Romish advocates . . . are now content to exchange tradition, which their predecessors had made the basis of their system, for this new foundation of development . . . The starting of this theory exhibits plainly the total rout which the champions of the Roman Church experienced in the battle they attempted to fight on the field of history. The theory of development is, in short, an attempt to enable men, beaten off the platform of history, to hang on to it by the eyelids

. . . The old theory was that the teaching of the Church had never varied . . . Anyone who holds the theory of Development ought, in consistency, to put the writings of the Fathers on the shelf as antiquated and obsolete . . . An unlearned Protestant perceives that the doctrine of Rome is not the doctrine of the Bible. A learned Protestant adds that neither is it the doctrine or the primitive Church .

. . It is at least owned that the doctrine of Rome is as unlike that of early times as an oak is unlike an acorn, or a butterfly like a caterpillar . . . The only question remaining is whether that unlikeness is absolutely inconsistent with substantial identity. In other words, it is owned that there has been a change, and the question is whether we are to call it development or corruption . . . . (The Infallibility of the Church, Grand Rapids, Michigan: Baker Book House [originally 1888], 31-33, 35, 39)

Salmon’s book has been refuted decisively twice, by B. C. Butler, in his The Church and Infallibility: A Reply to the Abridged “Salmon”  (New York, Sheed & Ward, 1954), and also in a series of articles in The Irish Ecclesiastical Record, in 1901 and 1902 (link one / two / three / four).

I myself exposed Salmon’s absolute butchery of facts regarding Cardinal Newman: John Henry Newman’s Alleged Disbelief in Papal Infallibility Prior to 1870, and Supposed Intellectual Dishonesty Afterwards (Classic Anti-Catholic Lies: George Salmon, James White, David T. King et al) [8-11-11].

Nevertheless, even the ecumenical, respectable Protestant apologists Norman Geisler and Ralph MacKenzie claimed in 1995, in a major critique of Catholicism, Roman Catholics and Evangelicals: Agreements and Differences (Grand Rapids, Michigan: Baker Books, 1995, 206-207, 459), that Salmon’s book has “never really been answered by the Catholic Church,” and call it the “classic refutation of papal infallibility,” which also offers “a penetrating critique of Newman’s theory.”

Yet George Salmon revealed in his book his profound and extremely biased ignorance not only concerning papal infallibility, but also with regard to even the basics of the development of doctrine. In any event, Dr. Geisler, fair-minded and scholarly as always, does note that:

Some evangelicals, however, have overstated the case against Newman’s theory of development . . . Newman is accused of providing the historical/theological framework that would become the “warp and woof” of Roman catholic Modernism in the early years of the present century. Further, it is claimed that Newman’s theory makes any appeal to earlier sources or authorities (such as Augustine, Aquinas, Trent, and Vatican I) dated and irrelevant. This may be the view of liberal Roman Catholic theologians but it is firmly rejected by traditionalists.

He then cites Pope Pius X’s espousal of Newman’s work and notes the “similarity between Newman’s theory of development and the Protestant understanding of ‘progressive revelation'”. Dr. Geisler also cites evangelical writer David Wells:

To be sure, John Henry Newman would have been appalled to see the use to which his formulation had been put by the Modernists. (No Place for Truth: Or Whatever Happened to Evangelical Theology?, Grand Rapids, Michigan Eerdmans, 1993, 120)

The Rt. Rev. Bishop “Dr.” [???] James White

You said that usually the Protestant misunderstands the concept of development. Well, before Newman came up with it, I guess we had good reason, wouldn’t you say? . . . those who hang their case on Newman and the development hypothesis are liable for all sorts of problems . . . And as for Newman’s statement, “to be deep in history is to cease to be a Protestant,” I would say, “to be deep in Newman is to cease to be an historically consistent Roman Catholic. (Letter to me: dated 4 May 1995; part of a lengthy exchange now uploaded as Is Catholicism Christian or Not?)

Jason Engwer

Catholics often quote John Henry Newman saying that to be deep into history is to cease being Protestant. Actually, to be deep into history is to cease using the arguments of Cardinal Newman. If Roman Catholicism is as deeply rooted in history as it claims to be, why do its apologists appeal to development of doctrine so frequently and to such an extent? Evangelicals don’t object to all concepts of development. Different people define development in different ways in different contexts . . . I think the Roman Catholic concept, however, is often inconsistent with Catholic teaching, unverifiable, and a contradiction of earlier teaching rather than a development.

The Catholic Church tells us that there was an oak tree since the first century. Maybe there’s a small amount of growth in the branches, and maybe there’s a new leaf here and there. But the acorn Dave Armstrong, Cardinal Newman, and other Catholic apologists refer to is contrary to the teachings of Roman Catholicism . . . the Catholic Church claims that the papacy, one with universal jurisdiction, is clear in scripture and was accepted by all first century Christians.

When we read the writings of a Dave Armstrong, a Cardinal Newman, or a Raymond Brown, are we seeing the spirit of the Council of Trent? Did the Catholics of the Reformation era argue the way these Catholic apologists have argued in more recent times? Would they agree with today’s Catholic apologists who say that doctrines like transubstantiation and priestly confession only existed as acorns early on, not becoming oak trees until centuries after the time of the apostles?

The argument for development of doctrine, as it’s used by today’s Catholic apologists, is unverifiable, irrational, and contrary to the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church. It’s a nebulous excuse for Roman Catholic teachings being absent and contradicted in early church history. It’s so nebulous, so vague, so speculative, that it can be molded into many different shapes, according to the personal preferences and circumstances of the Catholic apologist who’s using the argument. When you interact with these Catholic apologists enough to get them to be more specific, as I’ve been doing with Dave Armstrong, the results for the Catholic side of the debate are disastrous. We’ve seen Dave not only repeatedly contradict the facts of history, but also repeatedly contradict the teachings of his own denomination. (From: “A Third Response to Dave Armstrong” [link now defunct]. My response to these absurd and a-historical charges is found in my paper: Further Dialogue With an Evangelical Protestant on Various Aspects of Development of Doctrine [3-19-02]; or see the “de-Engwerized” heart of my argument: Catholic Synthesis of Development & “Believed Always by All”)

So much nonsense (filled with factual errors and misrepresentations of Catholic teaching) from small minds, against a great man and theological genius . . .

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(originally 3-19-02 and 9-27-05)

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