2021-03-11T13:18:51-04:00

Fr. Z, a radical Catholic reactionary, who appears to take the position (among many other strange and scandalous things) — or at the very least has seriously considered the notion — that Pope Benedict is still the pope, mentioned my friend, Catholic theologian Dr. Robert Fastiggi, in a recent post (3-8-21).  I’ll cite Dr. Fastiggi’s words below in regular black font color and Fr. Z’s words in blue henceforth:

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It’s interesting that defenders of “tradition” like Fr. Zuhlsdorf and others don’t realize that they are departing from some very traditional sources by endorsing a book that claims that Pope Francis (and therefore other popes) can teach heresy. In Book 4, chapter 3 of De Summo Pontifice, St. Robert Bellarmine states that “without doubt” (sine dubio) the privilege has been handed down to Peter’s successors, which insures that “in his chair there would never be found someone who would teach contrary to the true faith” (in sede ejus numquam inveniretur qui doceret contra verum Fidem).

Bellarmine’s position was endorsed by Vatican I in chapter 4 of Pastor Aeternus, which states:

For the Holy Spirit was not promised to the successors of Peter that they might disclose a new doctrine by his revelation, but rather that, with his assistance, they might reverently guard and faithfully explain the revelation or deposit of faith that was handed down through the Apostles.. Indeed, it was this apostolic doctrine that all the Fathers held and the holy orthodox Doctors reverenced, FULLY REALIZING THAT THE SEE OF PETER REMAINS ALWAYS UNTAINED BY ANY ERROR, according to the divine promise of our Lord and Savior made to the prince of the disciples: “But I have prayed for you that your faith may not fail; and when you have turned again, strengthen your brethren” (Lk 22:32).” Now THIS CHARISM OF TRUTH AND NEVER-FAILING FAITH was conferred upon Peter and his successors in this chair in order that they may perform their supreme office for the salvation of all; that by them the flock of Christ might be kept away from the poisonous bait of error and be nourished by the food of heavenly doctrine; that, the occasion of schism being removed, the whole Church might be preserved as one and, resting on her foundation, might stand firm against the gates of hell. (Denz.-H, 3070-3071; emphasis mine).

The question that Fr. Zuhlsdorf needs to answer is this: how does he reconcile endorsing a book that claims a pope can teach heresy with the clear teachings of St. Robert Bellarmine and Vatican I? Does he believe that Peter and his successors were given the “charism of truth and never-failing faith” or not? If not, then he’s claiming that Vatican I taught error, and he’s in deep theological trouble. (3-6-21)

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Commenting on that site in the combox is also Robert Fastiggi, a pretty smart guy who teaches at Sacred Heart in Detroit.

Fastiggi says a) I embrace “tradition” (why he added scare quotes, I’m not quite sure) but b) I did an un-trad thing by “departing from some very traditional sources by endorsing a book that claims that Pope Francis (and therefore other popes) can teach heresy.”

very traditional sources as opposed to … what?… merely traditional?

Anyway, Fastiggi brings up a position St. Robert Bellarmine takes in De Summo Pontifice about Popes which was endorsed by Vatican I.   Prof Fastiggi wonders how I can “reconcile endorsing a book that claims a pope can teach heresy [mentioned at the top, etc.] with the clear teachings of St. Robert Bellarmine and Vatican I?”

Did I?  No, on both counts.

Firstly, I didn’t “endorse” the book in the sense Prof Fastiggi intended to convey: eagerness, etc. , as in “Wow, what a great book, surely it’s right.”  I wrote about it because it is useful.  Someone who is really into the question will find this a useful book.  Frankly, I think the fact that books like this are coming out at all is pretty darn sad.   But this is the deck we’ve been dealt.  These are our times.  Maranatha.

Second, Prof Fastiggi seems to have confused, conflated Vatican I’s teaching about infallibility with the notion that a Pope can never get anything wrong about faith or morals, or anything else, either in private thoughts or public statements, a kind of ultramontanism on piety steroids.

Vatican I didn’t say that Popes can’t err at all.  Popes can be wrong, about a lot of things.  They can even say in public things that are wrong about faith and morals.  While St. Robert Bellarmine personally believed that a Pope cannot publicly teach heresy (he was in the minority on this point), he also admitted that his opinion was not certain.  On the other hand, Bellarmine did hold as certain that a Pope cannot define a heretical teaching that the faithful are bound to believe.   That is what the Church teaches.  That is what Vatican I endorsed.  Vatican I didn’t endorse Bellarmine’s (minority) belief that a Pope can’t ever be wrong. Vatican I endorsed Bellarmine’s correct position that Popes cannot err when they define doctrine that must be accepted on faith and morals.

There is a good post with quotes from Bellarmine on this at Eric Giunta’s Laboravi Sustinens.   That would be a good starting place to untangle what Bellarmine thought.  Ironically, the post is entitled “Where Peter Isn’t”. (3-8-21)

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I read what Fr. Z said in reply to my citations of St. Robert Bellarmine and Vatican I. He ignores the passages of Bellarmine that I quote as well as the passages of Vatican I that I highlight. Then he cites a post by the lawyer Eric Giunta who has stated he believes Pope Francis is a heretic. He also calls me an “Ultramontanist” which seems to be a name some traditional-minded Catholics use when someone manifests the proper reverence and obedience to the Roman Pontiff according to Vatican I and Vatican II. I don’t believe either Fr. Z or Eric Giunta have come to grips with what Bellarmine says in book IV of De Summo Pontifice or what Vatican I actually teaches about the divine protection of the Roman Pontiff from error. (3-9-21)

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Fr. Z has called me an “utltramontanist.” I’m not sure what he means by this term. I am simply trying to understand papal authority according to ecumenical councils such as Florence, Vatican I, and Vatican II. I’ve ordered the “Compendium” that Fr. Z mentions. If time permits, I’ll write a review of the book, . . . (3-9-21)

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Fr. Z wishes to appeal to his followers and put his own spin and commentary on what he selectively provides. We wish no ill towards him, and we pray for him. (3-10-21)

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Whether or not Fr. Z is endorsing the book in question or merely encouraging its usefulness can be debated. The book edited by John Lamont and Claudio Pierantoni, though, promotes the thesis that Pope Francis is guilty of heresy, which assumes that Popes can formally teach heresy. If Fr. Z believes that Popes cannot teach formal heresy, let him make that clear. If he believes that Popes can teach formal heresy, let him make that clear.

As can be seen, my comments on Where Peter Is were on the question whether Popes can teach heresy. I wasn’t dealing with the question whether Popes can never err. Fr. Z, though, brings up this issue as if that was my point. The quotes I supplied by Bellarmine and Vatican I provide evidence that the Popes will never formally teach heresy. Vatican I’s affirmation of the charism of truth and never-failing faith conferred upon Peter and his successors is incompatible with the belief that Popes can teach formal heresy. That was my point, but Fr. Z chose to obscure the issue. Moreover, Vatican I does not teach that Popes are only immune from the possibility of heresy when they are defining a doctrine ex cathedra. The article by Eric Giunta (that Fr. Z links) fails to take this point into consideration. These are topics, though, that would require a long article to explain.

This pamphlet by Fr. Joseph Iannuzzi brings out the general points that I hold (even though there are a few points in the pamphlet that need qualification).

This article by Emmett O’Regan might be helpful.

These articles by Ronald Conte, Jr are likewise helpful.

I’ve ordered the book edited by John Lamont and Claudio Pierantoni with a foreword by Archbishop Viganò. When time permits, I’ll read through it and offer a critique.

Let’s continue to pray trusting in the Holy Spirit’s protection of the Roman Pontiff from heresy. (3-10-21)

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Photo credit: anonymous portrait of St. Robert Bellarmine (1623) [public domain / Wikimedia Commons]

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Summary: Dr. Robert Fastiggi (under criticism from Fr. Z) explains his view on papal indefectibility (i.e., the view that popes cannot fall into heresy: dogmatically promulgated by Vatican I in 1870).

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2021-03-09T15:07:08-04:00

One Peter Five‘s Page Views Have Decreased by Two-Thirds Due Possibly to Highlighting More “Positive” Materials

It’s a rare occasion that I totally agree with a Steve Skojec article (since he is almost Exhibit #1 of a textbook radical Catholic reactionary), but as one who rejoices in 1) truth and 2) Christian unity, I’m happy to see it. Steve (head honcho at One Peter Five), recently wrote a piece called “Negativity is a Drug, And We’re Hooked” (3-5-21). He opined:

Social media is bad. The word “toxic” is overused, I suppose, but it’s also probably an understatement. We get online and we think we’re just going to read a few things or have a couple of interesting discussions, but the next thing we know, our blood starts boiling, we start throwing elbows, and maybe we even lob a few jabs below the belt.

I do it. I know I do it. I’m angry about so much that’s going on, and sometimes I just want a good scrap, so I dig in.

Ironically, this is the opposite of what I’m trying to do with the content here. I want it to be educational, enlightening, and encouraging.

But I have to admit, I’m frustrated.

Last night, I complained (on social media; where else?) about how we published a fantastic, moving, uplifting story about an incredible saint — St. Marianne Cope — who took the awful lives of lepers and turned them into something full of beauty and wonder, but that it only had 27 shares.

Meanwhile, my snarky post about Cardinal Wuerl getting millions of dollars in retirement hit 500 shares right out of the gate. . . .

But it had me up last night thinking about all of this stuff. About the fact that since I started trying to do a lot more St. Marianne Cope-type pieces and fewer Wuerl-type pieces, traffic on this website has dropped faster than Gavin Newsome’s approval rating. Whereas in 2018, at the height of all the Vigano revelations, we were getting somewhere between 25-30K pageviews a day, lately, we’re at fewer than 10K. In fact, we haven’t broken the 10K barrier in the past 30 days. Not even once. There could be several reasons for this, but traffic metrics over time tend to be a semi-reliable indicator about whether the content you’re producing is what your audience wants to consume.

This is utterly fascinating. Steve is nothing if not an angry, pessimistic, furious, doom-and-gloom, highly uncharitable ranter: particularly on his Twitter page, where he does little else, as I have thoroughly documented:

Steve Skojec: Mini-Pope & Oracle of Doom & Despair [4-20-20]

Apocalypse! Steve Skojec’s Pontifications vs. Vatican II [4-22-20]

Pseudo-Pope Skojo III Rebukes Real Pope Benedict XVI [5-9-20]

Pope Francis vs. the Gospel? Outrageous & Absurd Lies! (Anti-Catholic Protestant James White and Catholic Reactionary Steve Skojec Echo Each Other’s Gigantic Whoppers) [5-26-20]

Steve Skojec vs. Pope Francis: “Evil, the Devil’s Own, Deceiver, Destroyer, Monster, Heretic, Blasphemer, the Enemy Within, Bad Man, Hypocrite, Attacker of the Faithful, Pretender, Insincere, Unconverted” [6-23-20]

Steve Skojec’s De Facto Schism is Complete: By His Own Report [1-11-21]

Apparently, however, he is sincerely trying — to his credit — to now do something different on his website. I take him at his word. He does appear to let out his seemingly endless anger and fury on his “Mr. Hyde” Twitter page (which often gives one an impression of “late-at-night / half-drunk” ravings), and the (now increasing in frequency) amiable, good ol’ guy “Dr. Jekyll” stuff on his web page.

That said, what he writes above is of real interest, from a “religious sociology” perspective. I’ve long noted that an overall mindset of “negativity” and pope-bashing are all the rage and fashionable and chic as can be. People can’t wait to jump onto this bandwagon, because they want to be liked by their buddies and because people are sheep. Just today in a private Facebook PM I wrote, “The fashionable thing today is obviously pope-bashing.”

Twenty years ago, Catholic apologetics was reaching perhaps its peak popularity. It has since drastically declined and bitching and moaning ad nauseam about Pope Francis (for illegitimate and irrational reasons) is all the rage (pun half-intended).

I’ve been writing about the spiritual harmfulness and dead end of negativity and the pessimistic outlook for over twenty years (delighted to have Steve “on-board” at long last). Chapter two of my 2002 book,  Reflections on Radical Catholic Reactionaries was entitled, “Faith and Optimism vs. Pessimism.” Here are some excerpts:

Complaints, undue criticism, condemnation, disobedience, dissent, bickering, moaning and groaning, silly and self-important pontifications, whining, waxing eloquently cynical: that’s what we so often see in the reactionary movement. It’s extremely unseemly, unedifying, and unappealing.

It is denied that the reactionary position is characterized by an attitude of pessimism and lack of faith. “Out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks” (Matthew 12:34). One reads the sort of comments reactionaries habitually make, and one is more than justified in arriving at certain conclusions, if words mean anything at all. If individual proponents of these viewpoints happen to have a joyful heart, then they would do well to include some positive remarks in public also. How about an article once in a while like “What’s Good in the Church?”? A gloomy “quasi-defectibility” outlook is contrary to a truly Catholic faith in God’s guidance of His Church. Many reactionary writings do not convey this sort of hope and sunny optimism at all.

The alarmist reactionary rhetoric gets worse and worse, as with all conspiratorial schemes and theories trumped-up in order to explain things that people find themselves unable to comprehend or understand (therefore, they disobey and lose confidence in their ecclesiastical superiors). Like Job’s comforters, reactionaries fail to see that God is at work: though mysterious and inexplicable His ways may continue to be. A little reading of Church history (the bleak periods) might do wonders.

Faith and perseverance must enter in, in such troubled times in the Church. We need to understand that Church history repeatedly shows this pattern; that even the early Church had tremendous scandal and hypocrisy, and — above all — that the Church is indefectible. That’s why the orthodox Catholic remains forever an optimist. We readily acknowledge that modernism is rampant; we deny that it can ever overthrow the Church. One must have faith. reactionaries ought to read the book of Job. Tough times afflict the Church as well as the individual. It is to be expected. Why does that surprise reactionaries? Liberalism, heterodoxy, and unbelief are never surprising, but a Church that remains orthodox despite all is perpetually a delightful and heartening “surprise.” The glory of the Church (like that of the saints) is not that it has no problems, but that it always sees a way through the problems. It always conquers them. Heresy has no life of its own, so it always fails eventually, while the Church marches on (as in Chesterton’s marvelous reflections on “orthodoxy”). It does so because it is God’s own Church, and God cannot fail.

Reactionaryism is profoundly pessimistic, which is fitting for Buddhists, Hindus, or nihilists, but not Christians. So God has given up on His Church? Even our Lord Jesus had His Judas, and St. Paul had his Corinthian church. God saw fit to include in the ancestry of Jesus a harlot (Rahab) and a murderer and adulterer (David). There was no “golden era,” if by that one means a period without serious ecclesiastical problems. I think reactionaries continue to believe in original sin, and the world, the flesh, and the devil. The Church is to be reborn in the caves and backwaters of Pharisaical reactionary gatherings? I think not.

Things take time. The pessimist always concentrates on present miseries, while the optimist, idealist, or person exercising faith look at the good things that will come in the future, as the present decadent cycle comes to a close and the new revival starts to gradually pick up momentum. We need only look back at Church history to see what is coming next (excepting Christ’s return, of course). If the Second Coming isn’t imminent, then it is almost certain that major revival will come in this century.

The indefectibility of the Catholic Church and its divine protection from the Holy Spirit is our grounds (in faith) that things will get better, and are, in fact, not as bad as they seem in the first place (at the deepest, spiritual level). Joy rests on grounds other than circumstances. Joy comes from inner peace of the soul, by the grace of God, and a Christian can possess it even in a concentration camp, or with incurable cancer. The saints even truly embraced suffering with joy, as a privilege and honor and a way to help save souls. I am referring to the optimism of the eye of faith: the assurance that God knows what He is doing, and that history has a purpose: that all things are in His Providence, though He obviously doesn’t will all things in His perfect will. He allows bad things, and then uses them for His own purposes. The modernist crisis is no different than anything else; God uses it for His benevolent ends, and is not mocked. Doom-and-gloom and Chicken Little pessimism are contrary to faith and the true Catholic spirit.

I suspect that a lot of the reactionary analysis of the crisis in the Church comes down to temperament. Some people are of a state of mind and emotional make-up that they are naturally pessimists. They may struggle with depression or find it difficult to be of good cheer, with regard to day-to-day life. They might be going through any number of things that are legitimately troubling. Sensitive souls will be harmed and troubled more by evil and “things gone wrong” than less sensitive types. We mustn’t pretend that temperaments and personality types have no effect on our worldviews. They certainly do. Nevertheless, I think there are real, objectively measured grounds for optimism with regard to the Church situation, other than simply a feel-good delusion based on mere temperamental factors and circumstances.

But getting back to our immediate topic: the traffic at One Peter Five has declined by two-thirds in about two-and-a-half-years? And the reason Skojec offers is much more deliberate emphasis on “uplifting” stories like that of St. Marianne Cope? Is his analysis of the cause correct? I suspect that he is half-correct.

The indisputable fact is that negativity, pope-bashing, moaning about the Church and bishops, etc. will garner great interest and hits (as Skojec proves by noting the immediate impact of the Cardinal Wuerl article). That’s what we know for sure. Examples today are innumerable, so I need not even provide any here. So does it follow simply because Steve and One Peter Five have decided to actually put more emphasis on optimistic, uplifting material, that this is why they are losing hits?

Again, I think that is partially correct. My theory is that his page views are considerably declining not because people like “negative” material more than positive — which is true enough — but (more deeply) because the very raison d’être of the existence of One Peter Five is negativity and pope-bashing. People have visited there to read the “latest” in alleged, imaginary Pope Francis scandals and to despise and rant and rave against Catholics who don’t see everything in utterly dark, tragic tones as they do.

All the leading, most popular reactionary Catholic sites (e.g., The Remnant, Michael Voris’ Church Militantly Angry, Lifesite News, Rorate Caeli, Taylor Marshall’s video pontifications) are of this nature, because (to be a bit cynical) they know that doing so is 1) their distinctiveness over against other sites, and 2) what will bring in umpteen visitors and subscribers (which in turn generates good ol’ $$$). They view their mission to “save the Church” from Pope Francis, Vatican II et al, as of the utmost importance and necessity.

This theory may be true or not. I offer it as a long-time social media participant myself (website since 1997) and also as an amateur religious sociologist (my major in college was actually sociology). But whether it is true or not, Steve and the folks at 1P5 have a big and momentous decision to make:

1) keep producing positive and non-polemical, non-polarizing articles and see the page views continue to drop (but do it because it is right and edifying),

or

2) retain the formerly dominant negative emphasis and get plenty of people coming round.

That’s their choice, and to decide which route to go will require much internal discussion as to what is their essential self-conceived mission. Jesus said that “the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few” (Mt 7:14, RSV). And He also noted that “the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many” (Mt 7:13). And: “when the Son of man comes, will he find faith on earth?” (Lk 18:8). He told us to expect to be hated by “all” (Hebraic hyperbole, but still almost true) if we follow Him as we should, and to take up our cross of discipleship, and “Woe to you, when all men speak well of you, for so their fathers did to the false prophets” (Lk 6:26).

Steve knows all this. Christianity’s not a popularity contest. Thus, every Catholic apostolate has to decide for itself whether it will seek purely a “business model” or “Madison Avenue” approach and motivation, or a far less popular, go-against-the-grain “discipleship” orientation. Is the main goal is to be “popular” and appeal to the most people possible (which usually amounts to some sort of fundamental compromise of principle), or is it to follow Jesus and present the “narrow way” that He taught, no matter what personal and/or financial cost is involved?

I’m not saying that all business techniques and strategies are wrong, or that it’s a total “either/or” dichotomy. Not at all; I’m only noting that business and worldly “success” (meaning big numbers and big money) cannot be our ultimate allegiance, just as Jesus taught that riches could not be the ultimate allegiance of the rich young ruler. In order to follow Jesus, he had to give them up. The Bible is not against riches per se, but rather, riches (or any pet project or endeavor, for that matter) that have become a person’s idol.

Steve Skojec is onto something, and in my opinion, he is at a crossroads. He “knows too much.” If he follows his seeming “gut instinct” expressed in this article he will have to take a hit, business-wise, and lose many previous supporters (and will have to fight and endure much turmoil and misery to do so). But it would be the right thing to do. If he rejects this path, on the other hand, the opposite result will occur: lots of continuing visitors and enough income to keep on the path he has usually taken with 1P5, but eventual spiritual ruin and shipwreck, or at the very least, severe personal disenchantment and burnout.

His choice. This is a potentially momentous development to keep an eye on and to pray much about.

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Photo credit: Anthony Parkes: narrow path around Grindslow Knoll, near Edale, Derbyshire, Great Britain [Geograph / CC BY-SA 2.0 license]

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Summary: Steve Skojec of One Peter Five has expressed criticism of the emphasis on “negativity” and noted that his site’s page views have dropped quite a bit, presumably as a result of trying to be more positive. I draw out the implications of his analysis.

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2021-03-05T12:57:00-04:00

Phil Lawler is the author of Lost Shepherd: How Pope Francis is Misleading His Flock (2018). One can tell from the title that Phil was making some pretty serious accusations. In my many critiques of it (perhaps more than from any other Catholic), he seemed to be declaring that Pope Francis was a heretic: at least in a vague, broad way. For example, in the Introduction, he stated that Pope Francis is:

. . . leading the Church away from the ancient sources of the Faith. . . .  a source of division. . . . radical nature of the program that he is relentlessly advancing. . . . encouraged beliefs and practices that are incompatible with the prior teachings of the Church. If that complaint is justified, he has violated the sacred trust that is given to Peter’s successors. . . . a Roman pontiff who disregarded so easily what the Church has always taught and believed and practiced on such bedrock issues as the nature of marriage and of the Eucharist . . . a danger to the Faith . . .

That sure sounds to me (as an apologist) that he believed the pope was guilty of some sort of heresy (and entails even judgments of his motivations and the inner workings of his heart and mind). Wouldn’t you agree? In chapter two, p. 20, Lawler opined that “Francis . . . appeared to cast doubt on the existence of hell.” That would most certainly be heresy, if true, as the existence of hell is a de fide dogma that can’t be doubted.

In his chapter six, writing in the context of reception of the Holy Eucharist, Lawler contended that the pope “has deliberately avoided the exercise of his authority, giving the impression that formal Church teachings and laws do not really matter and can safely be ignored.”

If things like these (assuming for the sake of argument that they are accurate) aren’t heresy, they certainly are an excellent impression of same.

Yet when push came to shove, and Lawler had to agree or disagree with the many “statements” or “rebukes” put out by overwhelmingly reactionary signees, Phil Lawler essentially argued that we don’t know for sure whether the pope is a heretic and so we shouldn’t claim that he is. To me, this is a very positive development in his thinking. Let’s look at what he stated in this regard. On 3 May 2019, Phil wrote the article, “Is the Pope a heretic? The danger of asking the wrong question” (Catholic Culture), in which he wrote:

Was it sheer frustration that prompted a group of Catholic scholars to issue their open letter charging Pope Francis with heresy? If so, I can understand. I share the frustration. The silence of the Catholic hierarchy, in the face of confusion that is tearing the Church apart, is maddening.

. . . Nevertheless I fear that this letter does more harm than good, compounding the problem that loyal Catholics now face.

Well, is the Pope a heretic? I am not qualified to address that question. . . . Who could make the authoritative judgment that the Pope had fallen into heresy and therefore lost his authority? Certainly not a handful of independent scholars.

To their credit, the authors of the Easter Letter recognize the need for an authoritative statement, for a judgment by the world’s bishops. But if that is their goal, should they not have approached sympathetic bishops privately, quietly, to make their case? . . .

Peter Kwasniewski, one of the principal authors of the letter, now says that the document lists “instances of heresy that cannot be denied.” This, I’m afraid, is a demonstrably false statement. The “instances of heresy” mentioned in the letter have been denied, and repeatedly. The authors of the letter are convinced of their own arguments, but they have not convinced others. In fact they have not convinced me, and if they cannot persuade a sympathetic reader, they are very unlikely to convince a skeptical world. . . .

It will be easier, now, to classify anyone who challenges the Pope as a member of the same group that is making charges of heresy. Consequently life will be more difficult for those of us who are not calling for the deposition of the Roman Pontiff, but simply for a clarification of Church teaching. . . .

Now, by asking bishops to do something that none of them is likely to do, the authors of the Easter Letter have given timid bishops one more excuse for their silence. Pleas for clarity can now conveniently be lumped together with charges of heresy, as evidence of “extremism.”

In a follow-up article of 16 May 2019, Phil added: “the authors of the open letter made a tactical mistake, because the charge of heresy is very difficult to prove . . .”

On 31 May 2019, Phil objected to the “unjust” banishment of John Rist, — one of the signees of the notorious “Easter Letter” — from the Patristic Institute Augustinianum. Phil says that “Rist’s orthodoxy is not in question” and that “He is being punished for questioning the orthodoxy of another prominent figure. And since the target of his criticism is the Bishop of Rome, a special rule applies.” Indeed it does. To his credit, Phil (almost unwittingly) illustrates the legitimacy of Rist’s censure:

In that 2018 document Veritatis Gaudium, amending the rules of the pontifical faculties, Pope Francis stipulated that the professors must be loyal to the Church. The wording of the relevant clause (26.2) is noteworthy:

Those who teach matters touching on faith and morals are to be conscious of their duty to carry out their work in full communion with the authentic Magisterium of the Church, above all, with that of the Roman Pontiff[emphasis {– Phil’s own –} added]

It looks to me like the action was perfectly justified, when we examine some of the outrageous things Rist has stated. For example:

I stop there to ask again whether harsh actions of this sort — combined with the well-documented rigging of the Synod on the Family — indicate that the Pope’s ‘paradigm shift’ should be recognized as an attempt — under cover of offering solutions to genuine social problems in Western society — to impose on the Church radical changes of doctrine, developed not by laity but largely in Germany by a group of relativist Hegelian theologians? . . .
I regard this papacy as a disaster and Bergoglio as possibly — because of his tampering with established doctrine — as possibly the worst pope we have ever had. . . .
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The whole thing amounts to a heresy on the scale of the Arian heresy. That took some 60 years to work out. I fear that this set of moral heresies may last even longer. (“Scholar stumps Cardinal Cupich, asks if Pope’s ‘paradigm shift’ means ‘radical’ doctrinal change,” Dorothy Cummings McLean, LifeSite News, 2-15-18)
Phil Lawler appears very confused. He wants to be able to object to the pope’s teachings (and/or perceived lack of actions) in very strong terms, yet when asked if he is a heretic, he hesitates. I think the hesitation is the natural reaction of a pious Catholic. But it’s inconsistent with his other rhetoric. Lawler has in effect strongly insinuated that Pope Francis is heretical, many times, including, notably, in his pathetic book.
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So what explains his hesitancy to use the “h word”? It’s pure speculation, but I think it’s plausible that he has observed the extreme reactionary nonsense of folks like Taylor Marshall and the crazed, virtual schismatic Archbishop Vigano and has stepped back a bit, so that he can still be taken seriously by serious orthodox Catholics. Perhaps an influence in this regard is his (presumed) good friend and associate at his website, Dr. Jeff Mirus, who absolutely excoriated and eviscerated Marshall’s trash-book, Infiltration: in a review published the same day as Phil’s defense of John Rist:

Infiltration is certainly an all-time classic…in the category of conspiracy theories.

It is hard to know where to begin a review, since discussing the book is rather like pointing out the absurdity of a crazy relative who always has an answer to every objection, pulled out of a world that exists only in his head. The fundamental stupidity of the book arises from the author’s felt need to explain the normal human condition in terms of a series of conspiracies. Developments and ideas the author considers bad—from the loss of the Papal States through the Second Vatican Council and right up to the current pontificate—are ascribed to the secret machinations of the Masons, the Modernists, the Communists, the gays, the St. Galen Mafia, you name it.

The technique is reminiscent of McCarthyism in America in the 1950s. If you have an idea that is similar to one held by one of the conspiratorial groups, it is a sure sign of the effectiveness of the conspiracy. If you happen to know someone in one of the conspiratorial groups, it is a sure sign that you have been successfully recruited. . . .

Infiltration, as I have indicated, displays an understanding of human history typical of your mad relative. What else can we expect from a book which makes wild assertions about plots, conspiracies and complex theological or institutional problems, each of which the author claims to treat decisively and beyond doubt in roughly three to five pages! Moreover, Marshall seems not even to realize that culture cannot be explained by conspiracy, and conspiracy cannot be proved by correlation. (Infiltration: An idiot’s guide to the problems of the Church”, Catholic Culture, 19 May 2019)

This is not to say that Mirus doesn’t take his own shots at Pope Francis, too. In an article dated 10-22-20 he referred to “the disastrous papacy of Francis.” He was reacting to one of the never-ending tempests in a teapot; this one about homosexuals and family rights. The pope’s words have been quite sufficiently explained (as having been butchered and taken out of context) , so that there is no problem here whatever:
Pope Francis and Civil Unions: Critical Context (Mike Lewis, Where Peter Is, 10-22-20)
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Those Pope Francis quotes: Video editing and media controversy” (Dr. Pedro Gabriel, Where Peter Is, 10-22-20)
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Pope Francis’s Words on Civil Unions Distorted by Editing (Fr. Matthew Schneider, Through Catholic Lenses, 10-22-20)
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Has Pope Francis changed Church teaching on same-sex civil unions? (Dawn Eden Goldstein & Robert Fastiggi, Where Peter Is, 10-22-20)
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Full Text Proves Francis Meant Civil Unions INSTEAD OF “Gay Marriage” (Fr. Matthew Schneider, Through Catholic Lenses, 10-24-20)
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Nuncio Further Clarifies Pope on Civil Unions (Fr. Matthew Schneider, Through Catholic Lenses, 11-5-20)
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Has Pope Francis changed Church’s doctrine on Homosexuality? (Francis Figuero, The Reproach of Christ, 10-22-20)
The problem, then, seems to be that folks like Jeff Mirus and Phil Lawler aren’t willing in charity to withhold scathing judgment of the pope, until the full story of any given [almost always trumped-up] “incident” is heard. They’re lightning quick to judge. Mirus was falsely judging the Holy Father on the very date that several people above were explaining (indeed, proving) that the pope had done nothing wrong; overturned no Church precedent or tradition or moral teaching at all. So he likely never even read them.
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As with so many people today, otherwise good Catholics and good men like Phil Lawler and Jeff Mirus have bought a cynical, hostile, outrageously false narrative regarding Pope Francis (a thing I’ve been strongly opposing these past eight years, as have many others): against which mere facts and reason — within this mentality — are oblivious and irrelevant, almost disallowed.
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But I’m delighted that Phil Lawler has at least the sense and wits to not proclaim that Pope Francis a heretic. Credit where due . . .
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Photo credit: An auto-da-fé of the Spanish Inquisition and the execution of sentences by burning heretics on the stake in a market place. Wood engraving by Bocort after Henty Duff Linton. This file comes from Wellcome Images, a website operated by Wellcome Trust [Wikimedia CommonsCreative Commons Attribution 4.0 International license]
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Summary: Phil Lawler, author of the hit-piece against Pope Francis, Lost Shepherd, hesitates to classify him as a heretic. This is good, but it’s inconsistent, given what he does state about the pope.
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2021-09-16T11:20:44-04:00

Dr. Peter Kwasniewski is a radical Catholic reactionary writer and speaker. His words will be in blue.

*****

“What shall we do about Vatican I?” This past Sunday, December 8, marked the 150th anniversary of the opening of a council that would forever change the way Catholics perceived and interacted with the papacy — the impetus for a runaway hyperpapalism capable of leveling centuries of tradition. In many ways, we are more threatened today by the spirit of Vatican I, which it will take a mighty exorcism to drive away. (“The Second Vatican Council Is Now Far Spent,” One Peter Five, 12-11-19)

This is a remarkable and striking development within the reactionary movement, but it’s also quite predictable if one ponders it a bit, as I shall argue below. People usually think consistently within their own paradigm, so that if they go down one wrong road, they will also go down several more that flow from the same false premise(s). I’ve been making two related points for many years now:

1) If a person habitually bashes and trashes a sitting pope (which Catholics by nature ought not do), then he or she will start bashing other popes besides the current one, as well.

2) If a person habitually bashes and trashes popes, then by the same “diabolical logic” he or she will start trashing the other (and most recent) largest source of authority in the extraordinary magisterium: the Second Vatican Council (1962-1965).

We’ve seen both of these tendencies come to pass before our eyes, in the increasing bashing of Popes Benedict XVI and St. John Paul II and St. Paul VI in particular (even among those who are not reactionaries: just so-called “conservative” Catholics), and also St. John XXIII: in other words, all of the “post-Vatican II popes.” I won’t even document instances here. They can be found on my Traditionalists & Reactionaries page and Papacy & Infallibility page (search their names), and on my Church page (search Vatican II); also in my collection of defenses of Pope Francis (now numbering 181).

Now this new element is starting to creep in, and it makes sense, once the quasi-schismatic and anti-authoritarian nature of the reactionary mindset is properly and fully understood. It’s a Luther-like (i.e., Protestant-like) and liberal Catholic-like aversion to binding Church authority, in the form of popes and councils. Holy Mother Church teaches us that these are infallible, generally speaking: lots of complexities and nuances in the application.

But those who champ at the bit against authority willfully rebelled against popes and councils. Luther made it a plank of his entire revolution that they contradicted themselves, hence, were not infallible, and — following the logic through — were therefore not in the final analysis part of the rule of faith. Only Scripture was a final and infallible guide (sola Scriptura). That was actually the biggest sea-change of the Protestant Revolt: far more than faith alone / sola fide (because Catholicism actually agreed far more with Protestants on grace and justification and soteriology, than they realized.

Liberal and nominal Catholics think similarly, since in their tragic lack of supernatural faith they disavow both an inspired Scripture and infallible popes and councils. They dismissed Vatican II by simply — cleverly — talking more about its supposed “spirit” than its actual documents and complete continuity with existing Catholic tradition. Orthodoxy accepts the authority of ecumenical councils, but only the first seven; then it arbitrarily dismisses any others past that time (the eighth century). And of course, it rejects papal supremacy and infallibility, granting the bishop of Rome only a more or less egalitarian “primacy of honor.”

So we see the spectacle now of reactionaries deliberately trashing and undermining the authority, not just of Vatican Two, but of Vatican One (1870). They have a motive to go after it (rather than the still sacred and unimpeachable Trent, in their eyes), because it specifically defined papal infallibility. Now, when that occurred, it meant that there was relatively more authority residing in the papacy, and since they tend to dislike papal authority, this would then become a “negative” thing in their eyes.

But in fact, it really changed little or nothing, because, like all doctrinal developments, the proclamation of papal infallibility only dogmatized at the highest level what was already very extensively understood and practiced for many centuries, and in kernel form, from the very beginning of the Church.

The other thing that would bother a reactionary about Vatican I is the fact that its decree on papal infallibility (Pastor aeternus) also made explicit and clear — here is its most egregious error or “trend-setting” mark in their eyes — that popes cannot fall into heresy (i.e., papal indefectibility); certainly not, particularly, in the sense of proclaiming heresies to be truths and binding Catholics to them. I now have two (I think, very important in their topic) articles about this on my blog:

Pope Francis Accusers Reject Magisterial Teaching on Popes (The pope’s teaching is indefectible and cannot be judged or “overruled” by any man: or even an ecumenical council) [7-23-20]

Pastor Aeternus (1870): Can a Pope Ever Make Heresy Binding? (Dr. Robert Fastiggi and Ron Conte; edited by Dave Armstrong, in Response to Timothy Flanders) [12-1-20]

If a pope can’t fall into or teach heresy (so dogmatized Vatican I), then this virtually makes a mockery of the massive currently fashionable bandwagon of trashing and questioning Pope Francis at every turn, doesn’t it? It’s like the dramatic removal of the entire limb that the bashers are sitting way out on, in the giant “tree” of the anti-Francis movement. Once it’s removed, they all come crashing down, along with their false notions and slanders of the pope: complaining and wailing all the way down.

So they must now find a way to start undermining and trashing Vatican I. And so what does quintessential reactionary Dr. Kwasniewski do? He starts talking about the odious, reprehensible “spirit of Vatican I” (his exact words!), which “will take a mighty exorcism to drive away.” He even shamelessly threw in other councils, too, in his disdainful, most un-Catholic dismissal of conciliar authority:

I suggest we leave it [Vatican II] alone, leave it behind, leave it in peace, along with Lyons I, Lateran V, and other councils you’ve never heard of, and turn our minds and hands to better things ahead . . . 

We must, then, add a third defining element to the current sad, pathetic development of reactionary error and rebellion against Holy Mother Church and Sacred Tradition:

3) If a reactionary habitually bashes and trashes the Second Vatican Council, then they will also go on to trash other councils: above all, Vatican I, since it made dogma the truth that popes can never be heretics, which undermines and demolishes the entire papal-bashing premise and primary outward characteristic — and arguably the essence — of the radical Catholic reactionary outlook. 

The reactionaries even have an historical model of rejection of Vatican I that they can draw inspiration from: German hyper-rationalist historian Johann Joseph Ignaz von Döllinger, who outright rejected the decree on papal infallibility, and was excommunicated. He went on to head the schismatic breakaway group called “Old Catholics”, which had precursors going back to the 16th century. It continues on today, with membership of about 115,000.

By the way, here are some of the current beliefs of the “Old Catholic Church”: which supposedly was dedicated to preserving apostolic tradition in its entirety, over against the alleged unacceptable “innovations” of Vatican I:

Christ-Catholic Swiss bishop Urs Küry dismissed the Catholic dogma of transubstantiation because this Scholastic interpretation presumes to explain the Eucharist using the metaphysical concept of “substance”. Like the Orthodox approach to the Eucharist, Old Catholics, he says, ought to accept an unexplainable divine mystery as such and should not cleave to or insist upon a particular theory of the sacrament. Because of this approach, Old Catholics hold an open view to most issues, including the role of women in the Church, the role of married people within ordained ministry, the morality of same sex relationships, the use of conscience when deciding whether to use artificial contraception, and liturgical reforms such as open communion. Its liturgy has not significantly departed from the Tridentine Mass, as is shown in the translation of the German altar book (missal).

In 1994 the German bishops decided to ordain women as priests, and put this into practice on 27 May 1996. Similar decisions and practices followed in Austria, Switzerland and the Netherlands. In 2020, the Swiss church also voted in favour of same-sex marriage. Marriages between two men and two women will be conducted in the same manner as heterosexual marriages. The UU allows those who are divorced to have a new marriage in the church, and has no particular teaching on abortion, leaving such decisions to the married couple. (Wikipedia)

There you have it, folks: pure liberal Protestantism; basically liberal Episcopalianism with Tridentine liturgy to make it falsely appear as “traditional.” Yet in a gathering in Munich in 1871, the stated goals of the schism were, among other things, “adherence to the ancient Catholic faith” and “rejection of new Catholic dogmas.” We see how well they have preserved those worthy goals. My, how things change, huh?

Yesterday I critiqued a pitiful attempt by Dr. Kwasniewski (who edited a book of Newman quotations last year) to enlist St. John Henry Cardinal Newman as a fellow enemy of Vatican I. He miserably failed, and it was an exercise of sophistry from A to Z. It was Newman who excoriated and refuted the grave and wrongheaded hyper-rationalistic errors of Döllinger and explicated exactly how and why he had gone off the tracks. Reactionaries today are following Döllinger’s lead, not Newman’s. Newman fully accepted Vatican I and papal infallibility as a highest-level dogma: since he had accepted papal infallibility even as an Anglican, and very firmly since his reception into the Church in 1845.

On a humorous note, I just discovered that I was mentioned in the same article:

Those who broach such issues are not engaged in a serious way, but are written off as “radical Catholic reactionaries” whom everyone should be strong-armed — or Armstronged? — to avoid like the plague. I suppose that’s one way to deal with uncomfortable truths, but it’s not recommended for those seeking the real causes of today’s crisis.

This is ridiculously laughable. I just finished my seventh installment of an ongoing dialogue with Timothy Flanders, who regularly writes for One Peter Five, where this article of Dr. Kwasniewski’s was published, and who is an associate of Taylor Marshall. We have gotten along with perfect cordiality, finding a fair degree of common ground as we communicate back and forth and listen to each other. I have a great deal of personal respect for him. Yet he basically holds the same views as Dr. Kwasniewski. He’s simply willing to dialogue about them and make common ground with non-traditionalist, passionately orthodox Catholics like myself (one who feels a great affinity to many emphases and beliefs of traditionalists). I think it’s a fabulous and constructive dialogue: one of my favorites I’ve ever been in (and I’ve been involved in well over a thousand by now, in 23 years of constant online apologetics, and another 16 years of apologetics before that).

Because of the almost complete unwillingness of reactionaries to dialogue, I’m banned at The Remnant and One Peter Five and Lifesite News. Steve Skojec treats me with the utmost contempt and mockery. Dialogue? What a joke . . . Taylor Marshall immediately banned me from his Twitter page as soon as I dared disagree with his book, even though he had highly recommended my work for years, and even carried an ad for it for several years on his site. Anytime you wanna talk, Taylor, I’m here . . . Phil Lawler, whose pope-trashing book I have critiqued (though I don’t classify him as a reactionary), engaged in very brief discussion with me, then decided he shouldn’t continue, and falsely accused me of absurd things that never happened. Chris Ferrara and Michael Matt at The Remnant treat me with dripping disdain and wholesale mockery.

Dr. Janet Smith, who has become increasingly reactionary in the last few years, wasn’t willing to dialogue with me about it. I appeared on her Facebook page a few times, but she quickly became hostile and personally insulting and made it clear I was no longer welcome. So I split. Takes two . . . Dr. Eduardo Echeverria first wrote to me regarding his recent book, where he turned against Pope Francis, asking if I’d like to review it (I had reviewed his earlier, pro-Francis version). I said I’d rather engage in public dialogue. He had no interest in that, and only wanted to chat in a restaurant, which is fine — and the exchange was at least cordial — , but I also wanted to have a serious dialogue in public, too. Again, takes two . . . Timothy Gordon commented on my blog after I noted that Taylor Marshall had cast him to the wind, and seemed to be open to dialogue, which I said I was quite pleased to enter into. I followed up several times but nothing has happened. Maybe Dr. Kwasniewski got to him and advised him to avoid me like the plague.

Need I go on with the endless examples? That’s eleven altogether typical ones, and Dr. Kwasniewski himself makes it a dirty dozen. At every turn, it seems, reactionaries — usually self-described as “traditionalists” — (with the very notable and refreshing exception of Timothy Flanders), are unwilling to engage in dialogue. This includes Dr. Kwasniewski, who used to dialogue with me (and I always thought that he was personally a friendly guy): who has no interest anymore to talk to me at all. Yet here he is accusing me of being the one unwilling to interact and talk. It’s the exact opposite of the truth. I’m here anytime he (or any other anti-Francis, anti-Vatican II — and I — reactionary) wants to defend his dubious viewpoints: regarding this article or my last one or any other. Bring it on! But, dear reader, don’t hold your breath waiting for him to do so. I would say it’s about as likely as the Second Coming taking place next week.

Along these lines, Fr. Longenecker still believes in the “hermeneutic of continuity” between the premodern Church and the Church of Vatican II. This hermeneutic died when Pope Benedict resigned. That act of abandoning the flock to the wolves symbolized the practical and theoretical abandonment of this vision of harmony (“if only we could just read what the 16 documents actually say!”) and its replacement by the more sober realization that the Council chose accommodation to the mind and modes of modernity over clear continuity with tradition. We are now reaping the rotten fruits of that choice. [my bolding; Pope Benedict is a bum and a liar, to boot . . . ]

We can see, moreover, the full magnitude of the evils that remained in the Church in spite of, and at times because of, John Paul II and Benedict XVI, . . . [gotta get St. John Paul in there too: with the obligatory non-use of “St.”!]

Remember what I wrote above about the reactionaries going after other popes prior to Francis? . . . this is textbook.

The architects of the Council, who, lucky for us, wrote and spoke freely about their intentions, were trying rather to domesticate the Modernism of the 19th and early 20th centuries, to make it mainstream and acceptable . . . 

That is, Vatican II was flat-out modernist . . .

There’s a lot more untrue slop in this article. I don’t have the patience to address all of it at the moment (I’m a human being, and not an infinitely patient one).

But mark my words: the reactionary mindset / mentality / movement has now moved beyond Pope Francis-bashing to the bashing of all popes since St. John XXIII: which has great similarities to the position (in this regard) of the sedevacantists and SSPX. They’ve moved beyond Vatican II-bashing, to Vatican I bashing: because the latter, in its declaration on papal infallibility and indefectibility, most assuredly doesn’t fit in with its agenda, and so must be discarded (or, more subtly and cleverly, ignored or minimized).

It just keeps getting worse and worse. And as it does, and as some of you now skeptical of my opinions begin to accept them, due to actual events and opinions rendered, please remember me in your prayers and realize that I tried to warn you (and the larger Church) about this, and analyze it, when very few others were willing to do so.

I predicted that they would start trashing Pope Benedict XVI, their former darling and “savior.” They did. Now it’s quite “fashionable” in their ranks. I predicted that they would increasingly go after Vatican II. They did (now we have bishops Vigano and Schneider expressly disavowing it). I didn’t predict this current urge to also diss Vatican I, but it fits the pattern perfectly (I see that clearly now) and I have laid it bare in this paper for all to see. Stay tuned: it will get worse (I do predict that), in all these tendencies. Once one goes down a wrong theological / spiritual path, it never gets better short of a full repentance and reversal. Pray for all these people, and pray for the millions who are, — or will be in the future –, tragically misled and extensively harmed by them.

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Follow-Up Reading

“The Pope’s Boundenness to Tradition as a Legislative Limit: Replying to Ultramontanist Apologetics”—Full Text of Dr. Kwasniewski’s Denver Lecture (7-31-21)

Peter Kwasniewski vs. Papal Authority (Ron Conte, The Reproach of Christ, 8-3-21)

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Photo credit: Joseph Ignaz von Döllinger (1799-1890) [public domain / Wikimedia Commons]

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2024-03-08T00:57:47-04:00

Highlighting Papal Indefectibility, Pastor Aeternus from Vatican I in 1870, & the “Charitable Anathema”

See the previous installments:

Reply to Timothy Flanders’ Defense of Taylor Marshall [7-8-19]

Dialogue w Ally of Taylor Marshall, Timothy Flanders [7-17-19]

Dialogue w 1P5 Writer Timothy Flanders: Introduction [2-1-20]

Dialogue w Timothy Flanders #2: State of Emergency? [2-25-20]

Is Vatican II Analogous to “Failed” Lateran Council V? [8-11-20]

Dialogue #6 w 1P5 Columnist Timothy Flanders [8-24-20]

Presently, I am replying to Timothy’s article, “Conservative/Trad Dialogue: The Unfruitful Council and Our Agreed Solution” (The Meaning of Catholic, 11-16-20). Timothy’s words will be in blue.

“1P5” = One Peter Five.

*****

Dear Dave,

I was pleased to read your rigorous reply to my critique in your most recent post. God willing, depending on my family and financial situation, I hope to prioritize our dialogue and write more frequently now. I hope that by the prayers of our Lady our conversation will give greater glory to God and serve the salvation of souls.

Great, and that’s a very worthy goal indeed for the purpose of a discussion.

I’m going to proceed from what I consider to be the most important matters in your reply and thus may leave off certain other matters which to my view are less important to the discussion. (The most important matter, however, will be left to the end.) We seem to agree that the present Modernist crisis (“Neo-Modernism” if you like) is more or less the “greatest crisis in the history of the Church.” In this I think we are following your mentor of blessed memory, John Hardon, SJ and my own greatest influence, Dietrich Von Hildebrand as you state.

Yes. I have nine books by Dietrich von Hildebrand in my library and 19 by Fr. Hardon.

Thus if we agree on the problem, we may proceed to find agreement on the cause in order to find a solution. There is remarkable agreement on the solution, however, as I was pleased to discover from your last reply. This suggests it may not be necessary to agree on the cause. But more on that later.

Okay. I’ll wait till later!

A Council Can only “Fail” on the Historical Level

The Trad contention asserts that Vatican II is in some way the cause of the present crisis. I conceded that this cannot be asserted on the ontological level, since acts of the Magisterium (such as Vatican II) cannot per se be said to cause anything evil whatsoever. Nevertheless I contended that even an act of the Magisterium can be a cause in the historical sense, in that it might fail to properly address a situation, or be prevented by evil men from achieving its full fruitfulness. I see this happening throughout history, as each Council is very much the work of God through sinful men, even though saints carry the will of God to conclusion.

I think one can say (and hopefully we agree) that though ecumenical councils are protected by God from theological error and heresy, that it will not necessarily be the case that their proclamations render the ultimate and best possible conceivable treatments of any given issue. This follows primarily and inexorably from the understanding that Catholic doctrine is always developing. Therefore, future proclamations will almost certainly be better in the sense that they are more developed and the product of more time in relation to the ongoing Mind of the Church.

In this sense, orthodox Catholics like myself are particularly fond of Vatican II as a specimen of some of the most developed theology of the Church. It’s not an effort to undermine earlier councils or to make Vatican II uniquely insightful; only to acknowledge the greater fullness of development of doctrine.

After I wrote about the parallels that I see on this point between Lateran V and Vatican II, I came across a quotation from Ratzinger which seemed to adhere to my perspective in this matter. In Principles of Catholic Theology, p. 378, Cardinal Ratzinger wrote that, “Not every valid council in the history of the Church has been a fruitful one; in the last analysis, many of them have been a waste of time.” In a footnote, he elaborates: “In this connection, reference is repeatedly made, and with justification, to the Fifth Lateran Council which met from 1512 to 1517 without doing anything effective to prevent the crisis that was happening.”

Lateran V was an act of the Magisterium and cannot be called the direct cause of the crisis. But we may say that it was unfruitful in effectively addressing the crisis. This is my assertion regarding Vatican II specifically for what it did about the existing pastoral approach of the Pian Magisterium. Vatican II did not fail on its ontological level, but only its historical level as I argued previously. Would you agree with Ratzinger’s assertion and concede that a Council can fail in a historical sense but not ontological?

Yes, as I almost always agree with the German Shepherd! But the way that I would put it is that it no doubt could have done better in retrospect, but that what it did produce was excellent and unassailable in its essence; and that, of course, it was hijacked by the liberals. It “failed” only indirectly: insofar as liberal dissidents who lack supernatural faith distorted and lied about it, and thus prevented its full impact from taking place. That’s hardly the fault of the council.

Nor are the wholesale distortions of it (such as, e.g., the false accusation of indifferentism) that are rampant in reactionary circles. Both the theological far left and far right have done their damage to besmirch the genuine council. But hindsight is always 20-20, isn’t it? Problems that have come about in the last 55 years will have to be more ably dealt with in a future council.

The most central aspect of Vatican II was its failure to do that which would have been truly “effective” to prevent the crisis: the charitable anathema. This approach was specifically abandoned by St. John XXIII in his speech about the “medicine of mercy.” This pastoral approach had been used by the Pian Magisterium for generations and the Vatican II Magisterium abandoned it. But this is the approach that we both agree should be renewed as we will discuss below.

Yes, I made it clear last time (citing my words in a paper dated 1-26-19) that I think more magisterial force against error is called for and overdue:

I think a good case can be made now that the traditionalist (not reactionary) complaint that too little was and is being done about heterodoxy and dissenters (and abusers, as it were) in the Church was correct, and that we should have cleaned house long ago. . . .

I say that the Church didn’t do enough, and that’s a large reason why we’re in the mess we’re in. . . . The liberals have been wreaking havoc, and the Church didn’t sufficiently crack down on them.

Basically, I think the Church went a bit too far with the “honey” approach when it became increasingly clear that a good deal of “vinegar” was necessary to apply, for the sake of souls. The sexual scandals in particular make this quite apparent, I think.

The idea that a Council can “fail” can only be understood on some historical level, not on the level of Magisterial action. As you correctly implied, the Council of Nicea might be called a “failure” in these terms until it was “confirmed” by Constantinople I, even though no man can say that God did not act at Nicea and dogmatize binding doctrine.

Again, in this limited sense I agree, and so should, or would, I think, any orthodox Catholic with a working knowledge of Church and conciliar history. The problem is that reactionaries (and often traditionalists) go way too far in their criticisms of Vatican II and wind up arguing almost precisely as Luther, Calvin, and larger Protestantism did. This does the Church no good. The fundamental enemy is disbelief, false belief, and rebellion: inspired by the devil himself: not orthodox councils.

In other words, every Catholic must agree with your assertion: no definitive act of the Magisterium can “contain literal heresy that binds the faithful.” This, you say is “not possible.” I don’t think any Catholic can assert otherwise.

Amen!

As I have said recently, all the Devil needs to do to destroy the Church is make the Magisterium dogmatize heresy and the Magisterium is compromised and the Church is no more.

But of course we believe that God would not and will never allow such a thing to happen.

I do believe that evil men have invaded the Church (as perhaps you may agree to some extent),

Of course. They’ve always been there since Day One, which is why we see St. Paul repeatedly referencing them. It’s only a matter of degree. There are a lot of them at present.

but I believe they have been unsuccessful in dogmatizing heresy. 

Exactly; and that includes (contrary to all the nattering nabobs of negativism today) all that Pope Francis has proclaimed as binding. No heresy; no false teaching, because Vatican I made clear that this was not possible for popes, either. They are indefectible, as the Church is; in the same sense.

I do not see any text of Vatican II or after which contains a positive error, but the appearance of error or merely ambiguity juxtaposed with prior clarity on a given point.

Well, this is the classic traditionalist / reactionary canard of “ambiguity”: which I have addressed innumerable times in my critiques of the far ecclesiological right.

You critiqued my signing of the Open Letter thanking Vigano for opening the discussion on Vatican II. You made reference to a point in that Open Letter which states that

Such a debate [on Vatican II] cannot start from a conclusion that the Second Vatican Council as a whole and in its parts is per se in continuity with Tradition. Such a pre-condition to a debate prevents critical analysis and argument and only permits the presentation of evidence that supports the conclusion already announced. Whether or not Vatican II can be reconciled with Tradition is the question to be debated…

I would agree these sentences are ambiguous, and these were the only lines in the document that I hesitated to sign on to.

Good.

This is because the Open Letter does not specify in what sense they are negating “continuity with Tradition.” The sentence following seemed to clarify that they meant “continuity” in a sense whereby all debate is silenced without discussion. I don’t think any Trad can argue that Vatican II is not in continuity on the ontological level of the Magisterium. That would amount to saying that Vatican II was not an Ecumenical Council at all. Nevertheless, I understood the lines as noting that the ambiguities were introduced by the documents of Vatican II in areas which had previously been made clear by the Magisterium.

Again, this is classic traditionalist / reactionary thinking. I reject it. You say this document was ambiguous about (as you interpret it) supposed conciliar ambiguity. I must say I get a chuckle out of that irony.

Continuity must be Definitively Defined by the Magisterium

This is what I mean by saying that Unitatis Redintegratio (and other such documents) were issued “without reference to the prior documents on this subject.” You point out this document references prior Magisterium and the Holy Scripture. Certainly. But Ecumenism as a movement predates Unitatis Redintegratio by a few generations.

I don’t see sudden and/or rapid doctrinal development as a problem, as long as it is in harmony with existing dogmatic tradition (always an ironclad requirement). The early Church didn’t talk much about, for example, original sin (a binding doctrine today and fundamental to our soteriology), and a host of doctrines started developing very rapidly in the 4th and 5th centuries, including important aspects of trinitarianism, Christology, and Mariology, as well as the communion of saints, transubstantiation, and ecclesiology (including the papacy).

Ecumenism and related issues are easily grounded in Holy Scripture. These things are there. Jesus and St. Paul were big ecumenists, truth be told. St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas wrote about ecumenical topics. The time had come for them to more rapidly develop and play a greater role.

This is not the Church’s first pronouncements on the subject. The Leo XIII issued Satis Cognitum (1896) and Pius XI issued Mortalium Animos (1928) on this subject, expressing the stance of the Church toward Ecumenism. This policy of the Church was not changed until Unitatis Redintegratio. When the policy changed, I assert that Vatican II could have been made more clear by referencing Leo XIII and Pius XI’s documents in Unitatis Redintegratio so that the continuity would be solid from the beginning. Thus, conceivably, the long clarification Dominus Iesus (2000) would have been unnecessary, since the text of 1964 would include, develop and re-affirm the same teachings contained in Leo XIII and Pius XI.

Whatever was “new” was not dogmatic. The Church used to believe in the death penalty for heresy. Now it no longer does. But that was not magisterial, so it could change. And that ties into the freedom of religious conscience. The Church often has to clarify its latest developments. That’s not surprising at all. But it’s all the more necessary due to the liberal distortions of everything. People wrongly think the Church teaches what it does not teach. I just went through one such thing with sedevacantists, two articles ago.

This is what what would normally happen for large “reversals” of policy before Vatican II, as I state in my Hypothesis:

Ven. Pius XII in Divino Afflante Spiritu changes the attitude toward the Vulgate, and thus includes an explanation using distinctions (20ff) in order to correctly understand how his encyclical does not contradict the Council of Trent. Vatican II and the post-conciliar Magisterium often simply ignore prior teachings, leaving the faithful to wonder how they are to be understood in light of prior Magisterium.

Further clarification is always a good thing. It doesn’t have to always be at the time. It can come later, as further events and any significant confusion make it more necessary. Development doesn’t happen all at once. It takes time, by definition.

The fact that Vatican II makes a reversal on major issues without an explanation is admitted by defenders of the Conservative viewpoint. Would you agree that in 1964 this explanation (which came later in Dominus Iesus) may have been more effective in Unitatis Redintegratio some thirty-six years prior? 

Probably, but of course any such clarification wouldn’t have the benefit of knowing the history that occurred between 1964 and 2000. In that sense, the 2000 clarifications were more effective, because they had the historical hindsight.

Indeed, Ratzinger himself wrote in 1966: “A basic unity—of Churches that remain Churches, yet become one Church—must replace the idea of conversion, even though conversion retains its meaningfulness for those in conscience motivated to seek it.”

He was more liberal back then, and that wasn’t magisterial. He changed later on. But there is probably some helpful truth, too, in what he was saying here: if we look at the whole context.

It would seem that by 2000, Ratzinger could reject the concept of “replacing the idea of conversion” when he helped issue Dominus Iesus, which repudiates most doubts as to the necessity of conversion to the Catholic Church for eternal life (even though the dogma of Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salvus is still not prominent).

Exactly. He became orthodox when his input was increasingly related to the magisterium. This is how God providentially works things out.

This is what I mean by “failure” and “cause of the crisis” when I speak of Vatican II. It is not unreasonable nor schismatic for the Trad to say that the documents “contain error” in the sense that they “miss the mark” of realizing the Hermeneutic of Continuity within the text.

I don’t see that as “error”; rather, as, perhaps, largely unavoidable “incompleteness” and being less fully developed. It’s a matter of category and terminology. These things can be corrected or better (and more fruitfully) expressed over time. That’s how development works.

This is why numerous theologians petitioned Benedict XVI to clarify crucial parts of continuity after he famously coined the phrase, but the faithful were given no answer.

Ah, so they were giving him a hard time, too, just as they do with Pope Francis. Interesting. It looks like it’s probably the same old [reactionary] suspects: as I have noted with many of these critical statements. The very first one mentioned is Paolo Pasqualucci: whose errors about Vatican II I have refuted twelve times. And it wasn’t hard to do at all. Roberto de Mattei is fourth on the list. I refuted his falsehoods about Gaudium Et Spes and procreation. If they are starting with false premises, then I can see why Pope Benedict XVI didn’t waste his time replying to them. It can be left to apologists like me. :-)

I assert that the Magisterium has a duty to issue a definitive document which demonstrates the Hermeneutic of Continuity on all of the disputed points between the Pian Magisterium and the Vatican II Magisterium. But Ratzinger himself says that Gaudium et Spes and other documents play “the role of a counter-Syllabus to the measure that it represents an attempt to officially reconcile the Church with the world as it had become after 1789.”[2] I assert that the current Magisterium has the duty to reconcile the Church to its own prior Pian Magisterium. I have argued this in more detail in another place.

I might agree in principle: at least in part. I’d have to see the particulars. But if it’s the same old wives’ tales, then I wouldn’t necessarily agree if the false premise was blatant and unserious.

Did Vatican I Dogmatize Pighius?

You have countered my assertions by stating that any concept of error contained in a Magisterial Act is contrary to the First Vatican Council which you quote at length. You seem to assert that Vatican I dogmatized Pighius’ sententia regarding a heretical pope. His opinion was that a pope can never be a heretical [sic]. It is simply impossible. This was the opinion defended by Bellarmine, which he says is sententia probabilis in his famous passage on the five opinions on the question of a heretical pope. You seem to assert that Vatican I raised this sententia from probabilis to de fide at Vatican I. Please clarify if I’ve misunderstood you.

That is approximately Dr. Robert Fastiggi’s opinion, and I got this opinion from him (in fact, after he expressed it forcefully on your own webcast). I either didn’t realize it was in Vatican I or had forgotten it. He would be in a position to know, as editor and translator of the latest Denzinger and also the revision of Ludwig Ott. I think we can trust his scholarly authority on this, and the conciliar text seems utterly clear and unambiguous to me. Not that I claim to be any sort of expert on it . . . But the council adopted Bellarmine’s view on one point, not that of Pighius (which Bellarmine partially disagreed with), as Bishop Gasser clarified in his Relatio in 1870. More on that below.

This assertion, however, cannot be proved by simply quoting the passage you did from Vatican I. The phrases you bolded have been used by the Holy See for centuries, and known to the same theologians who argued against Pighius, and continued to do so after 1870. (I am relying here on the work of Mr. Ryan Grant, Bellarmine’s foremost English translator.) Ott even seems to say otherwise when he talks about the decisions of the Holy See:

The ordinary and usual form of Papal teaching activity is not infallible[.] … Nevertheless they are normally to be accepted with an inner assent which is based on the high supernatural authority of the Holy See (assensus religiosus). The so-called silentium obsequiosum, i.e. reverent silence, does not generally suffice. By way of exception, the obligation of inner assent may cease if a competent expert, after a renewed scientific investigation of all grounds, arrives at the positive conviction that the decision rests on an error.[3]

It’s apparent (in the second word) that Ott is talking about the ordinary magisterium there. But Pastor aeternus is referring to the extraordinary magisterium:

. . . matters concerning the faith. This was to ensure that any damage suffered by the faith should be repaired in that place above all where the faith can know no failing. (Ch., 4, 4) . . .

For the Holy Spirit was promised to the successors of Peter not so that they might, by his revelation, make known some new doctrine, but that, by his assistance, they might religiously guard and faithfully expound the revelation or deposit of faith transmitted by the apostles. Indeed, their apostolic teaching was embraced by all the venerable fathers and reverenced and followed by all the holy orthodox doctors, for they knew very well that this See of St. Peter always remains unblemished by any error, . . . (Ch. 4, 6)

These portions lead up to the famous climax which defines papal infallibility. The preceding sections obviously refer in context to the same sort of thing: the highest levels of infallibility.

Since (ultimately) the particular canonical aspects of this matter are above my pay grade, I wrote to Dr. Fastiggi and he sent me three short articles he wrote about Cardinal Bellarmine and conciliar and papal indefectibility, and a long one about the larger topic, from a talk he presented in about 2003 (personally approved of by Cardinal Dulles, who was in attendance). He wrote about the question of papal statements that are part of the ordinary magisterium:

[T]eachings of the extraordinary papal magisterium are infallible as well as definitive judgments by the Pope. The question of the possibility of error in ordinary papal teachings is a delicate matter. In my article I cite Vatican I’s affirmation that “in the Apostolic See the Catholic religion has always been preserved immaculate and sacred doctrine honored” (Denz.-H, 3066) and the “See of St. Peter always remains untainted by any error” (Denz.-H, 3070). Ordinary teachings of the papal magisterium are not definitive, and they are subject revision or reform. This is why the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith in its 1990 instruction, Donum Veritatis, speaks of such magisterial teachings as pertaining to matters “per se not irreformable.” If a papal teaching is not irreformable, it is subject to revision or change. For example, Pope Innocent I in 405 allowed for the use of juridical torture by Christian magistrates. Nicholas I, however, in 866 taught that neither divine nor human law allows such torture (cf. Denz.-H, 648). Innocent IV, however, approved the use of torture by the Inquisition in 1252. In 1993, though, John Paul II included torture among the acts which are intrinsically evil (Veritatis Splendor, no. 80). We can look back and say that Popes Innocent I and Innocent IV were in error about torture, but they were not opposing any definitive teaching on the subject at the times when they made their judgments. Their judgments were not irreformable, and when they made these judgments they were not opposing any settled truths of the faith.

It would take a long time to deal with all these matters in the depth they deserve, but these are some basic responses . . . 

The divine protection of the pope that the Church adheres to clearly doesn’t include everything the pope proclaims. Hence, even though I have defended Pope Francis 178 times, I freely disagreed with him on several political matters when I commented (otherwise glowingly) on Fratelli tutti. And that’s because his opinion on political matters is not magisterial and has no binding authority. It’s not his domain (not in the fullest authoritative sense). He himself made clear that his opinions on science can also be disagreed with, in his encyclical Laudato si, and sure enough, in-between my almost endless praise of it, I respectfully disagreed with the Holy Father on nuclear energy and global warning.

In order to prove your assertion, you would need to show that Vatican I intended to address the well-known discussion on heretical popes and make a definitive pronouncement on this subject. However, the assertions of these theologians mentioned by Bellarmine and held by others before and after the Council are not addressed anywhere. 

The council is under no obligation to do so, though I suspect in the discussions about the documents, those things were brought up.

Moreover, as Mr. Grant mentions in the above-linked discussion, the Acta show that the Council Fathers discussed whether to define one of the sententiae on the subject, but declined to do so.

You seem to assert that the dogma of indefectibility hinges on an alleged dogma of Pighius’ sententia, but this has not been proven. A good point to strengthen your case would be prove that Bellarmine (who held to Pighius) believed that if Pighius was wrong, then indefectibility was compromised. But this seems a tenuous claim, since he admits the other sententiae besides Pighius, and never accuses these others as compromising indefectibility.

I assert that the sententiae mentioned by Bellarmine have not been defined by the Magisterium. The most we can say about them is that one of them may be more probable than the others, but none of them can be said to be sententia communis, before or after Vatican I. I have not seen any evidence to the contrary, but as always I’m willing to be corrected.

Von Hildebrand Agreed with Davies on Vatican II

You assert that Deitrich Von Hildebrand “loved” Vatican II. It is true that in his first two books on the crisis you quote in your linked article, he made no direct critique of Vatican II but seems to place all the blame on the liberal interpreters of the same. To this I would not disagree in principle as I have said, but I do not say those who follow Lefebvre’s opinion of the Council are acting schismatically nor irrationally, since Vatican I did not dogmatize Pighius or your assertion about indefectibility.

I shall now happily yield to Dr. Fastiggi’s scholarly knowledge of dogmatics in order to present a full and adequate reply to your challenge. In one of his papers that I already cited above, he mentioned relevant magisterial material in Denzinger 3066 and 3070. He also referred in his personal letter to me, to “the indefectibility of Catholic doctrine under the special charism of truth and never-failing faith of the successor of Peter (D-H, 3071).”

Here is Denzinger 3071, from Pastor aeternus: from the latest revision (a copy of which always sits immediately to the right of my writing desk):

Now this charism of truth and of never-failing faith was conferred upon Peter and his successors in this chair in order that they might perform their supreme office for the salvation of all; that by them the whole flock of Christ might be kept away from the poisonous bait of error and be nourished by the food of heavenly doctrine; that, the occasion of schism being removed, the whole Church might be preserved as one and, resting on her foundation, might stand stand firm against the gates of hell.

For comparison’s sake, here is the translation from chapter 4, section 7, from the version of Pastor aeternus online at EWTN:

This gift of truth and never-failing faith was therefore divinely conferred on Peter and his successors in this See so that they might discharge their exalted office for the salvation of all, and so that the whole flock of Christ might be kept away by them from the poisonous food of error and be nourished with the sustenance of heavenly doctrine. Thus the tendency to schism is removed and the whole Church is preserved in unity, and, resting on its foundation, can stand firm against the gates of hell.

In another paper of his, Dr. Fastiggi stated, regarding Bellarmine and Suárez:

What these two Jesuit theologians believed could not happen was confirmed by Vatican I’s affirmation of the “charism of truth and of never-failing faith” conferred upon Peter and his successors” (Denz.-H, 3071). We need to thank God for this charism given to Peter and his successors and have faith it this special charism. 

Dr. Fastiggi’s paper from his 2003 talk is entitled, “The Petrine Ministry and the Indefectibility of the Church.” It was eventually published in Called to Holiness and Communion: Vatican II on The Church (edited by Fr. Steven Boguslawski, O.P. and Robert Fastiggi, Ph.D., University of Scranton Press, 2009). In it, he stated:

In the post-Tridentine era, theologians such as Bellarmine (1542-1621) and Suárez (1548-1617) affirm both the indefectibility of the Church as a whole and the necessity of the Petrine office for maintaining this indefectibility in doctrine. . . . 

The Doctor Eximius [Suárez] [91] likewise upholds the indispensability of the Petrine office for the Church’s indefectibility. He observes that “the Roman Church” can refer either to the particular Church of Rome or to the See of the Roman Pontiff who, when assuming the posture of the teacher of the universal Church, can never err or depart from the faith. [92] For this reason, “the faith of the Roman Church is the Catholic faith, and the Roman Church has never departed from this faith nor could she ever so depart because the chair of Peter presides over her.” [93] . . . 

To be sure, the Petrine ministry is not the only means for insuring ecclesial unity. Much could also be said about the indispensable role of Mary who is “intimately united to the Church” [186] and who cares for the faithful “by her maternal charity.” [187] The central point of this essay, however, is that the Petrine office is essential to the indefectible structure of the Catholic Church. As a “visible source and foundation” [188] of ecclesial communion, the Roman Pontiff fulfills a divinely ordained service of unity. Without the Petrine ministry, the Church would be lacking an essential aspect of what Christ willed for His Church on earth. Without the Petrine office, the Church ceases to be indefectible.

[Footnotes:

91 Pope Paul V (r. 1605-1621) bestowed upon Suárez the title of Doctor Eximius, the Exceptional or Uncommon Doctor.

92 Cf. Suárez, Defensio Fidei Catholicae Adversus Anglicanae Sectae Errores, chap. 5, no. 5-6 in Vivès ed., vol. 24, 21-22.

93  Ibid., chap. 5, no. 7; Vivès, vol. 24, 22. 

[ . . . ]

186 Lumen gentium, 63

187 Ibid., 62.

188 Ibid., 18.

In his correspondence with me, he also recommended an article by Ron Conte, noting that he didn’t “always agree” with Ron (nor do I), but that “he understands papal authority and indefectibility very well.” InBellarmine, Taylor Marshall, and Ryan Grant on Papal Faith” (8-1-20), Ron commented:

First, a review of what Bellarmine says.

In the book On the Roman Pontiff, book 2, chapter 30, Saint Robert Bellarmine considers a proposition called “the tenth argument”.

“The tenth argument. A Pope can be judged and deposed by the Church in the case of heresy; as is clear from Dist. 40, can. Si Papa: therefore, the Pontiff is subject to human judgment, at least in some case.”

He begins by saying there are five opinions on the matter.

1. “The first is of Albert Pighius, who contends that the Pope cannot be a heretic, and hence would not be deposed in any case: such an opinion is probable, and can easily be defended, as we will show in its proper place.”

This opinion was that of Saint Robert Bellarmine as well as Pighius, and it was adopted and confirmed . . . by the First Vatican Council. When Bishop Vincent Gasser, in his relatio before the Council, says that the Council adopted the opinion of Bellarmine, not any extreme opinion of Pighius and his school, he means this opinion, where Bellarmine and Pighius happen to agree. . . . 

And now we come to the fifth opinion, like the first, accepted by Bellarmine. But this fifth opinion is only “the fifth true opinion” if it is the case that Popes can commit or teach heresy. Bellarmine thinks that God does not permit this. He says the first opinion, that Popes cannot teach or commit heresy is probable and easily defended. And since this fifth opinion is predicated on a Pope being heretical, something excluded by Vatican I, it is only an intellectual exercise. One cannot base an accusation against Pope Francis on this fifth opinion.

Marshall and Grant

Dr. Taylor Marshall and Ryan Grant discuss Bellarmine on whether a Pope can be a heretic, in this video. Let’s consider what they say.

Taylor Marshall and Ryan Grant opine that a manifestly heretical Pope could be deposed by an Ecumenical Council. They note that the “first opinion” is the one held by Bellarmine, that a Pope cannot teach or commit heresy. This opinion is dismissed by them, in a common but erroneous manner, by accusing various Popes of grave failures of faith, including Honorius, John 22, and Marcellinus.

The enemies of the Church accused Pope Marcellinus of apostasy, of sacrificing to the pagan gods, which would be a grave sin against faith, even if under duress. But this is also the type of sin which the grace of God prevents. For if the Rock on which the Church is founded, whose faith is never failing, could, even exteriorly and under duress, worship pagan gods, the Church would not be indefectible. For many souls would be lost, following this example of the Pope. Therefore, based on the teaching of Vatican I, we must conclude that Marcellinus was innocent. See my previous post. He was falsely accused by the enemies of the Church, as a way to convince his flock to behave similarly. The fact that this Pope was a Saint who died a martyr, rather than worship pagan gods, is also proof of his innocence. The story that he worshipped false gods exteriorly, repented, and then died rather than commit the same act again is fiction.

But when Marcellinus was accused, he offered to be judged by an Ecumenical Council. Yet the Cardinals and Bishops refused to judge him, saying: “For the first See is not judged by anyone.” And his innocence is defended in this article in the old Catholic Encyclopedia. It is impossible that Marcellinus committed the grave sins against faith of which he is accused, as it is contrary to . . . Vatican I. And even from a mere human perspective, the accusations are untrustworthy and the account clearly spurious.

So Marshall and Grant err gravely by using their own fallible opinions to judge and condemn past Popes for grave sins against faith. Basing a theological opinion on a prudential judgment is a weak argument.

It is interesting to note that, before Vatican I declared the never failing faith of the Pope, they considered the past history of the Popes, looking for any Pope who failed in faith. They found none. Honorius was rather easily defended, as Cardinal Manning states. And the same was true for the other Popes. And the fathers of that Council were well aware of the writings of Bellarmine defending the Popes against accusations of failure of faith. Since the Council did not find any Popes guilty of heresy, this is further proof that the Council intended to define that Popes cannot commit heresy.

The First Vatican Council phrased this . . . in positive terms, that each Pope has a charism from God of truth and a never-failing faith. This is better than merely saying that Popes do not commit heresy and do not teach heresy; it is a fuller statement which includes the negative, but also includes the positive gift. The Pope has a charism from God ordered inexorably toward truth and faith. Unfailing in truth. Unfailing in faith. That is the Vicar of Christ, guided by the Holy Spirit.

But Marshall and Grant err gravely by claiming that the First Vatican Council did not deal with the question of whether a Pope could commit or teach heresy. Grant states: “the Magisterium of the Church punted on the issue, refused to define it….” But if that is true, Mr. Grant, then what is the meaning of this charism of truth and a never failing faith? Grant ignores the teaching entirely. He gives no explanation. . . . 

[I]f Grant believes that Vatican I did not decide the question of whether Popes can teach heresy, what does he think “this charism of truth and never failing faith” means? How can a Pope have a divinely conferred charism of truth and never failing faith, and also teach material heresy and commit formal heresy? Grant does not address the question. This is typical of the papal accusers. . . . 

Teaching heresy from the Chair of Peter is an exceedingly grave failure of faith. It would do grave harm to the indefectibility of the Church. And so the grace of God does not permit this to happen.

The never failing faith of the Pope, the definition of Vatican I, certainly implies that the Pope cannot be a heretic, as then his faith would have failed. Also, the teaching that each Pope has the gift of truth implies that he cannot teach heresy. For material heresy is contrary to truth and formal heresy is contrary to a never failing faith. Thus the gift of truth and never failing faith utterly prevents any type of heresy, material or formal, in any valid Roman Pontiff. . . . 

Consider the following argument. (1) If a Pope commits heresy, he would be automatically cut off from the Church and would lose his authority. (2) If God permits Popes to commit heresy, then the faithful would not know which Popes were valid and which teachings to believe. (3) Not knowing which teachings to believe, makes it all the more difficult to determine which Popes have committed heresy. (4) Councils are only valid if approved by a valid Pope. (5) Not knowing which Popes are valid causes us to not know which Councils are valid. (6) The end of this process is that the faithful would have no way to know which Popes and Councils were valid and which teachings to believe. They would be like lost sheep, and the Church would utterly lose Her indefectibility. (7) Therefore, God does not permit Popes to commit heresy.

The argument is predicated on the true premise that IF a Pope commits heresy, he is no longer the valid Pope. So the proposition is true, in the abstract, but also counter-factual. It is like the assertion: If Christ has not risen, then our faith is in vain. Christ has risen. But it is still true that IF He has not risen, then our faith would be in vain.

Marshall and Grant unfortunately take opinion five as if it were factual, as if a Pope could teach or commit heresy, and be deposed by an Ecumenical Council. This is not possible, as the Roman Pontiff is above the authority of an Ecumenical Council. . . . 

Since the Roman Pontiff governs the whole Church, he also governs the body of Bishops and any Ecumenical Councils. This implies that Councils may not depose a Pope.

“Since the Roman pontiff, by the divine right of the apostolic primacy, governs the whole church, we likewise teach and declare that he is the supreme judge of the faithful, and that in all cases which fall under ecclesiastical jurisdiction recourse may be had to his judgment. The sentence of the apostolic see (than which there is no higher authority) is not subject to revision by anyone, nor may anyone lawfully pass judgment thereupon. And so they stray from the genuine path of truth who maintain that it is lawful to appeal from the judgments of the Roman pontiffs to an ecumenical council as if this were an authority superior to the Roman pontiff.” [Vatican I, Pastor Aeternus, chapter 3, n. 8] . . . 

I am a fan of Ryan Grant’s work. Grant’s contribution to scholarship is invaluable to the Church. But he is not a competent theologian. The ability to understand and write theology is a gift. No matter how intelligent you may be, if you don’t have that gift, then you will not be a good theologian. Despite Grant’s own admission that he is not a theologian, he delves into theology by implying that a Pope can be a heretic and can be deposed by an Ecumenical Council.

Bishop Vincent Gasser, in his famous Relatio on infallibility at Vatican I, noted:

As far as the doctrine set forth in the Draft goes, the Deputation is unjustly accused of wanting to raise an extreme opinion, viz., that of Albert Pighius, to the dignity of a dogma.  For the opinion of Albert Pighius, which Bellarmine indeed calls pious and probable, was that the Pope, as an individual person or a private teacher, was able to err from a type of ignorance but was never able to fall into heresy or teach heresy.  To say nothing of the other points, let me say that this is clear from the very words of Bellarmine, both in the citation made by the reverend speaker and also from Bellarmine himself who, in book 4, chapter VI, pronounces on the opinion of Pighius in the following words: “It can be believed probably and piously that the supreme Pontiff is not only not able to err as Pontiff but that even as a particular person he is not able to be heretical, by pertinaciously believing something contrary to the faith.”  From this, it appears that the doctrine in the proposed chapter is not that of Albert Pighius or the extreme opinion of any school, but rather that it is one and the same which Bellarmine teaches in the place cited by the reverend speaker and which Bellarmine adduces in the fourth place and calls most certain and assured, or rather, correcting himself, the most common and certain opinion. (section 40)

You wrote: “Vatican I did not dogmatize Pighius or your assertion about indefectibility.” It adopted one portion of St. Robert Bellarmine‘s argument that agreed only in part with Pighius, and disagreed in part. That it in fact asserted and confirmed the notion that the pope could not ever bind the Church to error or heresy, is, to me, quite clear also in the inexorable logic (or logical result) of the wording: about which Ron Conte drives home the point in, I think, devastating and unanswerable fashion.

If you or my friend Ryan Grant, or Dr. Taylor Marshall disagree with Ron’s take, then by all means, take a shot at refuting it. I think you will end up in a tangled mess of self-contradiction. Something to seriously ponder, for sure . . . Dr. Fastiggi summarizes the clear Church teaching in this regard:

Any well-formed Catholic knows how essential the papacy is for the Catholic Church. To be a Catholic is to be in communion with the Roman Pontiff. Vatican II teaches that those fully incorporated in the Church “are united with her as part of her visible bodily structure and through her with Christ, who rules her through the Supreme Pontiff and the bishops” (Lumen gentium, 14). The authority of the pope comes from Christ, and it is divinely protected. Vatican I clearly teaches that “the See of St. Peter always remains untainted by any error according to the divine promise of our Lord and Savior made to the prince of his disciples” (Denz.-H 3070; cf. Lk 22:32). This means that Christ and the Holy Spirit will insure that “in the Apostolic See” the Catholic religion will “always be preserved immaculate and sacred doctrine honored” (Denz.-H 3066; cf. the formula of Pope Hormisdas; Denz.-H 363–365). . . . 

Popes, of course, can make mistakes in their prudential judgments, and they are liable to sin in their personal lives. Although popes teach with authority, not all of their doctrinal judgments are irreformable. The Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith [CDF], in its 1990 instruction, Donum veritatis, acknowledged as much. . . . 

Pope Francis has admitted his mistakes in regard to sex abuse in Chile, and he has also expressed his openness to constructive criticism. Some critics of Francis, however, go beyond constructive criticism and try to undermine his moral and doctrinal authority at every turn. . . . 

Although prudential papal judgments require attentive consideration, papal teachings on faith and morals must be adhered to with “religious submission of mind and will” even when the pope is not speaking ex cathedra. (Lumen gentium 25). This religious submission “must be shown in such a way that his supreme magisterium is acknowledged with reverence,” and “the judgments made by him are sincerely adhered to, according to his manifest mind and will” (Lumen gentium 25). Many papal critics, however, fail to manifest proper reverence toward Pope Francis’s teaching authority. They appear to trust their own judgments more than they trust the Holy Spirit’s guidance of the successor of Peter. (“Pope Francis and Papal Authority under Attack”, La Stampa / Vatican Insider, 2-18-19)

First, it should be noted that Von Hildebrand was completely opposed to the New Mass. In the work you cite in your article on him, he also said this: “The new liturgy is without splendor, flattened, and undifferentiated…truly, if one of the devils in C.S. Lewis’ The Screwtape Letters had been entrusted with the ruin of the liturgy, he could not have done it better.”[4] His critique was against the Latin text and rubrics of the New Mass, not merely its implementation. Therefore he wrote “I hope and pray…that in the future the Tridentine Mass will be reinstated as the official liturgy of the holy Mass in the Western Church.”[5] As you point out, he stated that a Catholic must obey these orders regarding the New Mass but he can lawfully advocate for the reversal of these orders as he himself did. Would you call him a reactionary on these grounds? Would you disagree that a Catholic can lawfully advocate what Von Hildebrand advocated using his reasons?

My definition of “reactionary” has four planks, so I can’t say until I found out what he thought about all of those. He seems to have a mixed record, or turned increasingly against the Pauline Mass over time. I would hold that a pious, obedient Catholic could have the opinion that the Tridentine Mass is at least equally as “good” (as a personal choice for preferred worship) as the ordinary form Mass. But this is now a moot point since Pope Benedict in 2007 declared them on equal ground in that respect and gave any Catholic the freedom to worship as he pleases. It’s the scandalous trashing of the ordinary form Mass which is contrary to Pope Benedict and Holy Mother Church.

And so I follow the German Shepherd, and not those like Peter Kwasniewski (or Dietrich von Hildebrand, insofar as he trashed the Mass itself and not just its abuses). We mustn’t follow any non-magisterial Catholic, no matter how noble and profound, if they clash with the magisterium. I even disagreed with Fr. Hardon regarding the Catholic charismatic movement. He didn’t care for it, but the Church has decreed otherwise (or has at the very least, not condemned it: only excesses within it). I also disagreed with him on one particular analogical Mariological argument. He didn’t like it, but Doctors of the Church used it, and so I had to respectfully defer to their greater authority and example. I brought this up to him on the phone one time (the Doctors part) but he would have none of it.

Turning back to the subject of Vatican II itself, Von Hildebrand stated this regarding its authority:

The Second Vatican Council solemnly declared in its Constitution on the Church that all the teachings of the Council are in full continuity with the teachings of former councils. Moreover, let us not forget that the canons of the Council of Trent and Vatican Council I are de fide, whereas none of the decrees of Vatican II is de fide; the Second Vatican Council was pastoral in nature. Cardinal Felici rightly stated that the Credo solemnly proclaimed by Pope Paul VI at the end of the Year of Faith [1968] is from a dogmatic point of view much more important than the entire Second Vatican Council. Thus, those who want to interpret certain passages in the documents of Vatican II as if they implicitly contradicted definitions of Vatican I or the Council of Trent should realize that even if their interpretation were right, the canons of the former councils would overrule these allegedly contradictory passages of Vatican II, because the former are de fide, the latter not. (It must be stressed that any such “conflict” would be, of course, apparent and not real.)[6]

Here Von Hildebrand sets the Council as lower in authority than the prior Councils on the dogmatic level. Would you agree with his principles here? 

There are different levels of infallibility and authority involved in different documents, but as an ecumenical council, its authority is the same as Trent, as Cardinal Ratzinger stated in 1985. He wrote:

Vatican II is in the strictest continuity with both previous councils and incorporates their texts word for word in decisive points . . .

Whoever accepts Vatican II, as it has clearly expressed and understood itself, at the same time accepts the whole binding tradition of the Catholic Church, particularly also the two previous councils . . . It is likewise impossible to decide in favor of Trent and Vatican I but against Vatican II. Whoever denies Vatican II denies the authority that upholds the other two councils and thereby detaches them from their foundation. And this applies to the so-called ‘traditionalism,’ also in its extreme forms. Every partisan choice destroys the whole (the very history of the Church) which can exist only as an indivisible unity.

To defend the true tradition of the Church today means to defend the Council.

So to the extent that von Hildebrand disagrees with this, I disagree with him. In his paper, “St. Robert Bellarmine on whether ecumenical councils can err”: sent to me last night by Dr. Fastiggi, he observed (this is the complete paper):

St. Robert Bellarmine, at the end of De conciliis, Liber II, chapter IX says “we hold by Catholic faith that legitimate councils confirmed by the Supreme Pontiff cannot err” (ex fide Catholica habeamus concilia legitima a Summo Pontifice confirmata non posse errare).

Earlier in De conciliis, Liber II, chapter II, Bellarmine makes this point: “A general Council represents the universal Church, and hence has the consensus of the universal Church; wherefore if the Church cannot err, neither can a legitimate and approved ecumenical Council err (Concilium generale repraesentat Ecclesiam universam, et proinde consensus habet Ecclesiam universalis; quare si Ecclesia non potest errare, neque Concilium oecumenicum legitimum, et approbatum potest errare). 

Bellarmine here is speaking of matters of faith and morals. Some teachings of ecumenical councils, especially on matters of discipline, have been superseded, let go, or revised. Rather than speak of such teachings as errors, I believe it’s more accurate to say these were teachings that were not per se irreformable. Some theologians believe that if teachings are not per se infallible, they are, therefore, liable to error. I would rather speak of them as non-irreformable, which is the way the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith speaks of them in numbers 24 and 28 of its 1990 instruction, Donum Veritatis.

It’s possible that ecumenical councils can make judgments on contingent or historical matters that are subject to qualification or correction. For example, Fr. Ludwig Ott, in Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma (Baronius Press, 2018, p. 162) states that the Sixth General Council” (Constantinople III) “wrongly condemned [Honorius I] as a heretic.” Fr. Ott then notes that, when Pope Leo II (682-683) confirmed the condemnation of Honorius I, he did so because of Honorius’ negligence rather than heresy. Ecumenical councils can teach infallibly on matters of faith and morals. Whether Honorius I actually held to the Monothelite heresy is a matter of history not faith and morals.

I hold to the position of Bellarmine. Legitimate ecumenical councils confirmed by the Roman Pontiff cannot err in matters of faith and morals. They can, however, make judgments on discipline, history, or open theological questions that are not per se irreformable. In other words, they are subject to revision or qualification. To speak of such judgments as “errors” is not, in my view, accurate.

The traditionalist is responding to the imposition of at least an apparent break with Tradition. He sees, for example, the advocacy by popes of America-style religious liberty on the basis of Dignitatus Humanae, an advocacy which contradicts prior teaching that he believes to be de fide. Therefore he appeals to the Holy See, as the aforementioned theologians did with Benedict (or the Dubia Cardinals did with Francis) and does not receive a reply. Therefore, according to Von Hildebrand’s principles here, if he receives no answer, he must ignore Vatican II and hold to the de fide teaching from prior Magisterium. Traditionalists appeal to the Holy See and are ready to obey when this definitive definition is proclaimed. And this is where we may find agreement, as I will say below.

I don’t see any such break with prior binding magisterial tradition, as I argued in this paper (vs. Pasqualucci):

#9: Dignitatis Humanae & Religious Liberty [7-18-19]

But ultimately, it appears that Von Hildebrand agreed with Michael Davies’ critique of Vatican II. Mr. Davies read Hildebrand’s words you quoted about Vatican II, and sent him a copy of his critical work on the Council. After Von Hildebrand read it, he wrote back and said concerning Davies’ work that he is “completely satisfied.” He praised Davies’ open letter in opposition to a bishop: “Thank you for writing it.” He said further concerning the Council, consistent with his principles quoted above:

I consider the Council—notwithstanding the fact that it brought some ameliorations—as a great misfortune. And I stress time and again in lectures and articles that fortunately no word of the Council—unless it is a repetition of former definitions de fide—is binding de fide. We need not approve; on the contrary we should disapprove. Unfortunately Maritain said in his last book: the two great manifestations of the Holy Spirit in our times are Vatican Council II and the foundation of the state of Israel.

Then I disagree with him. He’s not the magisterium. He’s just a man, however great.

I don’t think even Lefebvre would disagree with Von Hildebrand’s praise of the Council in comparison to the teachings of the liberal heretics he was attacking. Nevertheless, the issue is that on certain matters the Council failed to act, or acted in a way that was ambiguous. This brought about a situation–as indirect, historical causality alone–which exacerbated the crisis that erupted. Let us now to turn to the most important omission of Vatican II and the Conciliar Magisterium, where we find agreement.

I think that’s wrongheaded: per my many defenses of the council.

Our Agreed Solution: The Charitable Anathema

As I stated above, the pastoral approach of Vatican II sought to reverse the pastoral approach that had been used for about nineteen centuries. This is the charitable anathema. Von Hildebrand beautifully articulates this pastoral action in his book of the same name:

The anathema excludes the one who professes heresies from the communion of the Church, if he does not retract his errors. But for precisely this reason, it is an act of the greatest charity toward all the faithful, comparable to preventing a dangerous disease from infecting innumerable people. By isolating the bearer of infection, we protect the bodily health of others; by the anathema, we protect their spiritual health[.] …

And more: a rupture of communion with the heretic in no way implies that our obligation of charity toward him ceases. No, the Church prays also for heretics; the true Catholic who knows a heretic personally prays ardently for him and would never cease to impart all kinds of help to him. But he should not have any communion with him. Thus St. John, the great apostle of charity, said: “If any man say, I love God, and hateth his brother; he is a liar” (I Jn. 4:20). But he also said: “If any man come to you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into the house[.]” (2 Jn. 1:10)[7]

Yes, I agree. It’s explicitly biblical.

This “act of the greatest charity toward all the faithful” was abandoned by Pope St. John XXIII in his speech at the opening of the Council. He stated that the Church “thinks she meets today’s needs by explaining the validity of her doctrine more fully rather than by condemning” since “people by themselves seem to begin to condemn them.”[8] Thus the charitable anathema was abandoned with the belief that Modern Man could condemn his own errors.

With respect to His Holiness, we feel we must disagree with this approach, as the history of the 60s to the present has shown us. Would you agree with this assessment of St. John XXIII?

In retrospect, yes. It was a well-intentioned move, but I think it has been unfruitful and that the Church should strongly reconsider this particular thing. One might even argue that if it had been followed, pretty much the entire sexual scandal could have been avoided and nipped in the bud. But again, that’s hindsight. It’s always easier to argue strategy with the benefit of knowing the history of the previous 57 years that St. John XXIII didn’t have the benefit of knowing. He didn’t have a crystal ball.

Pope St. Paul VI revoked the Oath against Modernism, but then Pope St. John Paul II instituted a new Oath of Fidelity including canonical penalties against heresy. Still, he did not renew the charitable anathema (except for Lefebvre and De Castro Mayer). This was a prudential error which must be reversed. This is the omission from Vatican II and after which is the “cause” of the crisis on a bare historical level, not on the level of Magisterium.

I think dissidents on the left ought to be excommunicated, too: at the very least in the most severe, willfully obstinate and rebellious cases.

You said that you agreed with the Trad effort to get the Holy See to condemn heretics with the charitable anathema:

I think “the law should be laid down,” and rather forcefully. Recently I conceded that the traditionalists have been correct in calling for this approach for some time. I noted that the “strategy” of the Church of being more tolerant (itself borne out of the fear of schism: which was why St. Paul VI was reluctant) has been a manifest abject failure, and that it was time to go back to the approach of Pope St. Pius X: “kick the bums out” as it were.

We are in complete agreement here. The approach of Pope St. Pius X is the proven approach against Modernists, and indeed all of the history of heresy. That is why it is truly an “act of the greatest charity toward all the faithful.” I will say further that I think this agreement between us is more important than our disagreement about the nature of the Magisterium, the nature of Vatican II, etc. Those things will be debated among historians and theologians and Church may never work them out. But on the issues of manifest heresies, these things must be worked out and quickly, for the love of souls.

Total agreement here, which is nice to have. I think you would expect to find this view from an apologist like me: since I am dealing with the wreckage of apostasy and heresy and schism every day. I’m defending orthodoxy and the orthodox, Holy Mother Church, the Blessed Virgin  Mary, Sacred Scripture, Sacred Tradition, and the Holy Father. I see what is “out” there, and therefore think that strong measures need to be taken to protect the flock.

Therefore I say that Conservatives and Trads must unite around calling for the Charitable Anathema from the Holy See. From my view, the Declaration of Truths is the best example of this. It is a succinct act of a few bishops which clarifies numerous propositions of the faith using the Magisterium from Vatican II and after. From my view, it is the way forward for the Church. This is because the crisis cannot be resolved until the Magisterium definitively defines the Hermeneutic of Continuity and binds all the faithful to it on pain of anathema. The Declaration, to a large degree, achieves this. That is why I advocate that all bishops must confess the Declaration and excommunicate those who oppose it. In my view this is the solution, as bishops have done for centuries but now do not do.

Perhaps in your next response you could share your thoughts on my proposal and how and what you might advocate in regards to the Charitable Anathema. As always, I am happy to be corrected wherever I am in error.

Yours for the cause of the Gospel,

Timothy Flanders

There may be many good parts in this Declaration of Truths, but of course people can and will disagree on its interpretation, just as they disagree on interpreting just about any document. I would say that the Catechism would be the document that best determines orthodoxy or not, and that it functions just fine in that capacity (perhaps in conjunction with the revised Ott). It has the full papal endorsement from Pope St. John Paul II. That’s a lot more authority than Bishops Burke, Schneider et al. Why would or should I defer to them (bishops known to be on the far right), as opposed to popes? 

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Photo credit: anonymous portrait of Doctor of the Church St. Robert Bellarmine (1542-1621), from 1622 or 1623 [public domain / Wikimedia Commons]

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2021-11-20T15:36:40-04:00

I’ve seen this process take place over and over, in my seven-and-a-half years of defending Pope Francis: now literally 176 times:

1) Pope Francis says something (for some people, virtually anything).

2) At first glance (and usually filtered through an increasingly untrustworthy and unbalanced Catholic media; and forget the secular media!), it sounds (especially to jaded cynical “ears”) like it is anti-traditional or downright subversive to the traditional Catholic faith. This accusation quickly becomes the norm in social media discourse, people compete to see who can be the most critical and conspiratorial and ridiculous, and it’s off to the dog races once again.

There is a reason that both G. K. Chesterton (“All that anybody ever really meant as the evil of gossip is much more characteristic of established journalism”) and C. S. Lewis (“I never read the papers. Why does anyone? They’re nearly all lies”) were scathingly critical of the media / press (some things never change).

3) But invariably what the Holy Father said or wrote is either A) taken out of context or B) wrongly or at least dubiously translated, or C) both.

4) Or it is sufficiently “shocking” (or nuanced) within development of doctrine and the hermeneutic of continuity, so that many ears simply can’t “receive” it, which is no scandal to me, knowing that the teachings of Our Lord Jesus and St. Paul were often of this very same nature, and wrongly perceived in much the same way:

John 7:16-24 (RSV) So Jesus answered them, “My teaching is not mine, but his who sent me; [17] if any man’s will is to do his will, he shall know whether the teaching is from God or whether I am speaking on my own authority. [18] He who speaks on his own authority seeks his own glory; but he who seeks the glory of him who sent him is true, and in him there is no falsehood. [19] Did not Moses give you the law? Yet none of you keeps the law. Why do you seek to kill me?” [20] The people answered, “You have a demon! Who is seeking to kill you?” [21] Jesus answered them, “I did one deed, and you all marvel at it. [22] Moses gave you circumcision (not that it is from Moses, but from the fathers), and you circumcise a man upon the sabbath. [23] If on the sabbath a man receives circumcision, so that the law of Moses may not be broken, are you angry with me because on the sabbath I made a man’s whole body well? [24] Do not judge by appearances, but judge with right judgment.” (cf. 8:48-49, 52; 10:20-21)

Mark 3:22 And the scribes who came down from Jerusalem said, “He is possessed by Be-el’zebul, and by the prince of demons he casts out the demons.”

An example would be Pope Francis’ recent reiteration of the “inadmissibility” (which is not the intrinsic immorality of) capital punishment. That was the previous Big Controversy. Now we have another. We can’t stop Catholics from trying to imitate the demeanor and outlook of the corrupt portion of the Pharisees. It’s sad, but what can one do about it, except to attempt to teach and correct?

5) So folks find Pope Francis “confusing” and “hard to understand”? Sounds like Jesus and the Apostle Paul again:

John 6:60, 66-67 Many of his disciples, when they heard it, said, “This is a hard saying; who can listen to it?” . . . [66] After this many of his disciples drew back and no longer went about with him. [67] Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you also wish to go away?”

Matthew 13:13-15 This is why I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. [14] With them indeed is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah which says: `You shall indeed hear but never understand, and you shall indeed see but never perceive. [15] For this people’s heart has grown dull, and their ears are heavy of hearing, and their eyes they have closed, lest they should perceive with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and turn for me to heal them.’

Matthew 15:16  And he [Jesus] said, “Are you also still without understanding?”

Mark 8:17 And being aware of it, Jesus said to them, “Why do you discuss the fact that you have no bread? Do you not yet perceive or understand? Are your hearts hardened?

John 3:10 Jesus answered him, “Are you a teacher of Israel, and yet you do not understand this?”

1 Timothy 1:7 desiring to be teachers of the law, without understanding either what they are saying or the things about which they make assertions.

2 Timothy 3:7 who will listen to anybody and can never arrive at a knowledge of the truth.

2 Peter 3:16 . . . There are some things in them [Paul’s epistles] hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures.

Jude 10 But these men revile whatever they do not understand, and by those things that they know by instinct as irrational animals do, they are destroyed.

6) At length when it is examined closely by those who haven’t jumped on the ultra-popular, fashionable, chic pope-bashing bandwagon, it turns out to be a “tempest in a teapot” and “much ado about nothing.”

We’ve seen it all erupt again, folks. Catholics are soiling themselves en masse and going bananas.  I have defriended about 14 people because I have less than zero tolerance for the irrational, hysterical pope-bashing, and I have for some time now. I am just sick and tired of seeing pseudo-Protestantism and warmed-over, half-baked liberal dissident and quasi-schismatic attitudes come across my feed. One can only take so much of that. It’s not good for the soul. It’s not edifying (to put it very mildly).

Many others among my Facebook friends have simply asked me to clarify things and have not joined in on the nonsense and fanaticism. That’s fine. I respect that, and am happy to respond as an apologist: whose job it is to defend the Holy Father and the holy Catholic faith and to bring reason into the equation, even though we move in two days and the last thing I should be doing right now is tackling a major controversy. In fact, I am here typing at 3:18 AM [finished at around 5:30] because I was thinking about all this stuff and couldn’t sleep.

Dr. Scott Hahn wrote on Facebook:

Holy Father, respectfully and humbly, I beg to differ… if that is indeed what you said. In any case, please clarify and rectify your statement, especially in view of the official teaching of our Lord through the magisterium of His Church

After 14 hours, this has garnered 7400 likes and 2400 comments. Thank God that Scott added the saving qualifier: “if that is indeed what you said”. A-ha! There’s the rub! Scott Hahn’s word (for better or ill) is right up there next to God in the eyes of millions of orthodox Catholics.  It doesn’t help things at all for him to make a quick observation like this.

He’s an apologist (like myself) and a theologian and academic (unlike myself). He could take it upon himself to actually do the hard work of understanding what was said and clarifying and defending it. But instead he gives us the quick soundbite, gets a billion comments and likes, and it is left to folks like myself, Dr. Pedro Gabriel and the other good folks at the Where Peter Is website, Catholic theologian Dr. Robert Fastiggi, Jimmy Akin, and Tim Staples (folks who actually defend the pope) to deal with the resulting mess and “scandal” and do that work.

I’m happy to do it (don’t get me wrong), but our job is made a hundred times more difficult because of the hysteria and din already created, and the noise that drowns out actual detailed analysis. I’ll get more than a few page views in writing about this, but I guarantee it won’t be anywhere near 7400 likes in 14 hours. That’s what the skeptical soundbite gets: simply because it comes from Scott Hahn.

So even if we present a plausible positive interpretation of what Pope Francis says and teaches, relatively few read it, because it goes against the zeitgeist. And so the Francis-bashing mania and hysteria continues to grow in this way. It’s sad and tragic. The devil’s very clever, and he knows how to exploit any weakness he can find among Catholics (and there are many).

Dr. Pedro Gabriel: the voice of reason and factuality, as always, has chimed in with an initial reaction on Facebook:

Social media has exploded with a CNA piece quoting Francis in a documentary saying that he favors homosexual unions.
At this moment we are waiting to see the full quote in context. It seems like, when he was bishop of Buenos Aires, he opposed a homosexual marriage bill and proposed, as an alternative, a civil unions law that would give gays some benefits (as for example, hospital visits and the like) without being considered a marriage. Francis’ remarks are probably to be read in light of that, and probably come in the sequence of discussing that. But we should wait to see the quote in context. CNA is not reliable and they have manufactured controversies like this before (the whole pachamama kerfuffle started with their careless reporting).
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Whatever it is, Francis has been consistent in condemning homosexuality and gender ideology, just like he has been consistent in treating LGBT people humanely. So any prudential proposal of his in matters of politics needs to be read in light of that.
So I will await to watch the whole documentary in all its context, as well as read the CDF document and all relevant information I may gather before forming a judgment. I advise people to do the same. We don’t need to jump on the bandwagon.
He has gotten 43 likes in 11 hours and 14 comments. See the difference there? That’s 172 times less likes and 171 tines less comments than Scott Hahn gets with his two sentences. This is what the papal defender is up against. But we do what we can. No one listened to the prophet Jeremiah, either, but he did the right thing in proclaiming the truth to the Israelites. “Success” in God;s eyes is not determined by numbers, and that is the ad populum fallacy, anyway, in logic.
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Carl E. Olson, Catholic author and editor of The Catholic World Report and Ignatius Insight waxed  indignant on Michael Liccione’s Facebook page, in a way that is now (sadly) rather typical among orthodox Catholic papal critics and/or bashers:
Cannot agree, although I understand (and feel deeply) the Francis Fatigue. Countless people now think the Church is changing her teaching on homosexuality and marriage They are incorrect, of course, but there it is. And Francis, I’m convinced, certainly knows how his comments are going to be taken. This sort of weaponized ambiguity has been his pattern from the start of his pontificate; he feints this way and goes that way, all in the apparent service of a sort of sentimentalized, semi-secularized Catholicism. Meanwhile, those who stand by the Church’s clear teaching on, well, nearly everything are hung out to dry.
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I don’t think he’s “teaching heresy.” He’s doesn’t care enough about doctrine to do so. (And he’s too smart to do so). But he certainly is causing more confusion, at a time when the Catholic faithful need clear, firm leadership.
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In essence, Pope Francis seems obsessed with fighting the battles of the 1970s, often employing a sort of squishy, fuzzy Unitarian-ish lingo that is long on vapid sentimentality and mostly devoid of both theological and practical substance.
The Where Peter Is website has come through, as it always does. Mike Lewis wrote the excellent article, “Pope Francis and Civil Unions: Critical Context” (10-22-20). If you want to see something other than the usual stock, standard, anti-papal hysteria, please read it (twice or more, if necessary) Here are lengthy excerpts:
It’s hard to even know where to begin my response, the reactions have ranged everywhere from a US diocesan bishop stating that the pope’s statement “clearly contradicts what has been the long-standing teaching of the Church about same-sex unions,” to a post on the Archdiocese of New York’s official website by a high-ranking diocesan official saying, “the Holy Father has plainly erred,” to Archbishop Carlo Maria Viganò, who in his latest statement says of the pope, “He who ought to be guiding the Barque of Peter has chosen to side with the Enemy, in order to sink it.”
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From the left, and especially in the secular media, many seem to be treating the pope’s words as an epochal shift in the Church’s teachings. While Pope Francis’s statements didn’t mention same-sex marriage or sexuality, they have been construed as some kind of earthquake in Church doctrine. For example, as reporter Edward Pentin displayed on Twitter, British tabloids and other newspapers are running with this. . . .
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First, I want to be straightforward about the level of importance of these statements, with regard to doctrine and how they relate to Church teaching. Let’s be clear about this (whether you agree with them or not): the hoopla is over two sentences spoken by Pope Francis in an interview. They are not official magisterial teachings, nor do they represent official changes in doctrine or discipline. Others have pointed out that we don’t have the full context, but (at least in my opinion) we can fairly easily glean Francis’s meaning based on his previous statements on these topics. . . .
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The Church approaches plenty of people and groups differently than it did in prior centuries: women, non-Catholics, non-Christians, prisoners, the disabled, the divorced, and many others. . . .

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That said, let’s take a look at what Pope Francis actually says. The first of the two statements that set off the firestorm was, “Homosexuals have a right to be a part of the family. They’re children of God and have a right to a family. Nobody should be thrown out, or be made miserable because of it.” The second statement was, “What we have to create is a civil union law. That way they are legally covered. I stood up for that.”

It is difficult to imagine that the first of the two statements—that LGBT people “have a right to be part of a family”—would be all that controversial, except to perhaps the most extreme and least pastoral of today’s Catholics. . . .

We have a right to a family. Francis is trying to teach us that shunning our children is not the Christian way. As a general principle, as parents our doors and our hearts should always be open for our children, even if they are different than we’d like them to be. Our Father in heaven is our model for this; he loves us as we are—unconditionally. He forgives us our trespasses, he welcomes us with open arms when we ask him for forgiveness, and he remains present to us even when we try to run from him.

Once again, the issue of how we should treat family members who are not perfectly living out the Catholic faith falls under what is frequently described as a “prudential” matter, not a doctrinal question. . . .

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For Francis, there is a clear distinction between treating someone with dignity (or, dare I say, with fraternal love), and embracing an idea that contradicts Catholic doctrine. The types of rights that accompany civil unions (things such as health insurance, rights of inheritance, tax laws, the ability to visit a loved one in a hospital or nursing home), should not be contingent on whether that person lives a life in total conformity to Catholic moral doctrine. . . .

Cardinal Bergoglio was not the first prominent archbishop to indicate tolerance for this type of openness to civil unions. In 1997, Archbishop William Levada penned a column in First Things defending what was dubbed the “San Francisco Solution.” As archbishop of San Francisco, Levada (who later went on to become the cardinal prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith), explained how he decided to respond to an ordinance in San Francisco allowing same-sex civil unions. As a result, employers were compelled to provide benefits to the same-sex partners of their employees, just as they would for a spouse.

As a “compromise,” Levada proposed that rather than providing benefits to someone on the contingency that they were either a spouse or same-sex partner, he would provide benefits to a second person in the household, regardless of relationship. . . .

[D]espite his reputation as a strident traditionalist—the current Archbishop of San Francisco, Salvatore Cordileone, provided one of the stronger defenses of Pope Francis’s words from the US episcopate. In an official statement, he explained the Church’s approach:

“In our bishops region’s audience with Pope Francis last January during our ad limina visit (the visit diocesan bishops make every five years to the Vatican), the topic of civil unions came up in conversation. The Holy Father clearly differentiated between a civil arrangement which accords mutual benefits to two people, and marriage. The former, he said, can in no way be equated to marriage, which remains unique.

“I would add that a civil union of this type (one which is not equated to marriage) should be as inclusive as possible, and not be restricted to two people of the same sex in a presumed sexual relationship. There is no reason, for example, why a brother and a sister, both of whom are unmarried and support each other, should not have access to these kinds of benefits. Marriage is unique because it is the only institution that connects children to their mothers and fathers, and therefore is presumed to be a sexual relationship. Indeed, the sexual relationship that marriage is presumed to involve is the only kind by which children are naturally made. The nature of marriage, the place of sex within a virtuous life, these great teachings of the Church come to us from God, are illuminated by reason, and do not change.”

I must admit I was surprised by the overwhelming reaction to this story today. As someone who has followed Francis closely since the beginning of his papacy and has become familiar with his thought and outlook, nothing struck me as unusual or remarkable about his comments. The words Francis spoke were neither unprecedented nor inconsistent with what he has said in the past. Those who were hoping that this was a watershed moment or change in Church teaching on human sexuality will be disappointed. Those who imagined that these words somehow meant that Pope Francis had crossed an integral doctrinal line are also terribly mistaken.

Fr. Agustino Torres, in an Instagram video, (“The Pope Was Misquoted AGAIN!”, expresses his belief that the Holy Father has once again been poorly served by an English translation. I’m so shocked I think I will faint! I’ve seen that so many times I have lost count. It’s about as common as water being next to a fish.

It’s heartening to see that Catholic News Agency: after playing a big role in the initial controversy, has seen fit to clarify in much greater depth. JD Flynn has written the article, “What did Pope Francis say about civil unions? A CNA Explainer” (10-21-20). I again quote at length, for the sake of my readers:

While the pope did not elaborate on the meaning of those remarks in the video, Pope Francis has spoken before to encourage parents and relatives not to ostracize or shun children who have identified as LGBT. This seems to be the sense in which the pope spoke about the right of people to be a part of the family.

Some have suggested that when Pope Francis spoke about a “right to a family,” the pope was offering a kind of tacit endorsement of adoption by same-sex couples. But the pope has previously spoken against such adoptions, saying that through them children are “deprived of their human development given by a father and a mother and willed by God,” and saying that “every person needs a male father and a female mother that can help them shape their identity.” . . .

What did Pope Francis say about gay marriage?

Nothing. The topic of gay marriage was not discussed in the documentary. In his ministry, Pope Francis has frequently affirmed the doctrinal teaching of the Catholic Church that marriage is a lifelong partnership between one man and one woman.

While Pope Francis has frequently encouraged a welcoming disposition to Catholics who identify as LGBT, the pope has also said that “marriage is between a man and a woman,” and said that “the family is threatened by growing efforts on the part of some to redefine the very institution of marriage,” and that efforts to redefine marriage “threaten to disfigure God’s plan for creation.” . . .

Some people have said what the pope taught is heresy. Is that true?

No. The pope’s remarks did not deny or call into question any doctrinal truth that Catholics must hold or believe. In fact, the pope has frequently affirmed the Church’s doctrinal teaching regarding marriage. . . .

What does the Church teach about homosexuality?

The Catechism of the Catholic Church teaches that those who identify as LGBT “must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God’s will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.”

The Catechism elaborates that homosexual inclinations are “objectively disordered,” homosexual acts are “contrary to the natural law,” and those who identify as lesbian and gay, like all people, are called to the virtue of chastity.

Now [I discovered in the morning when I got up], Dr. Pedro Gabriel has contributed his own very helpful article: “Those Pope Francis quotes: Video editing and media controversy” (Where Peter Is, 10-22-20). I quote it at length:

What the Pope says in a documentary in his private capacity does not constitute an official “Vatican stance”, nor is it magisterial.

Still, a cacophony ensued, in which the usual voices used this proof—yet again—that Pope Francis is heterodox.

Fortunately, in the midst of this cacophony, some people on social media were apparently able to get ahold of the incendiary clip. We see it here . . .

After a bit of research, I discovered that these clips are actually not original to the documentary, but are from a 2019 interview that the Pope granted to Mexican journalist Valentina Alazraki. The video of the full interview can be watched here: [link posted]

The part where Pope Francis mentions that homosexuals have a right to a family appears after the 56-minute mark. Please note that the words, the background, the tone of voice, and the gestures of the Pope match the documentary videoclip, so it’s quite clear that this is the primary source.

Here is my translation of what the Pope said in full context. In red, we can see the parts that were quoted.

“Once I was asked a question on a flight—it made me angry afterwards, it made me angry because of how the media reported it—about the family integration of people with homosexual orientation, and I said: homosexual people have a right be a part of a family, people with homosexual orientation have a right to be in a family and the parents have the right to recognize this son as homosexual, this daughter as homosexual. Nobody should be thrown out or be miserable because of it.

Another thing—I said—when we see some sign in children that are growing, and then you send them… I should have said to a ‘professional’, but I said ‘psychiatrist’. I wanted to say a professional, because sometimes there are signs in adolescence or pre-adolescence where they don’t know if it is a homosexual tendency or if the thymus gland atrophied with time—I don’t know, a thousand things, no? So, a professional. The headline of the newspaper: ‘The Pope sends homosexuals to the psychiatrist’. It is not true! They asked me a question and I repeated again: ‘They are sons of God, they have a right to a family, and so forth’. Another thing is… and I explained: I was wrong in using that word, but wanted to say this: ‘When you notice something str’… “Ah, it’s strange…”. No, it’s not strange. It’s something out of the ordinary. In other words, they took a small word to nullify the context. There, what I said was: ‘they have a right to a family’. And that does not mean approving homosexual acts, not in the least.”

I find it interesting how the Pope spoke here about the media taking his words out of context. I also find it interesting that the Pope specifically said that none of this means approving homosexual acts. This completely alters the implication of the quote that was presented to us. Of course, if you read the entire interview, you will see the Pope railing against abortion and saying, explicitly: “I am a conservative.”

What is even more interesting is that the quotes in the clip from the documentary were scrambled. Additionally, there is absolutely no mention of homosexual unions in the interview—or at least the official transcript. . . .

[T]he way the video preview rearranges the order in which his words actually appear in the interview should give us pause. Maybe after we see the interview in its full context, we will have a different impression of his words altogether, especially since the Holy Father uses the Spanish term “convivencia civil,” which can be either “civil union” or “civil coexistence.” If he means the latter, he may well be referring to laws that protect the human rights of homosexuals. . . .

We have already seen, from what we know of the videoclip, that he has been quoted wildly out of context, with separate sentences being cherrypicked and creatively stitched together, giving the impression that he  meant something he really didn’t. The part where he mentions that homosexuals should have a family refers to not marginalizing homosexual people within the family, most especially gay children. But the way it was presented, it induced us to think he was talking about homosexual unions because they had a right to a family. So who knows if he was misquoted again when talking about civil unions?

Lastly, we hear choruses from the pope bashers and even many “papal nitpickers” today: “why do Pope Francis’ words always have to be explained at length by apologists? It wasn’t this way with Pope Benedict and Pope St. John Paul II.” To which I reply:

I spent many hours defending Pope St. John Paul II over the “kissing the Koran” incident and the Assisi ecumenical conferences. By the time of his death, reactionaries regarded him a liberal loose cannon. He was also constantly accused of writing too-long, Byzantine encyclicals.
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And of course Jesus was vastly more misunderstood than Pope Francis ever has been: accused of being demon-possessed and out of His mind, and murdered . . .
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The Bible and orthodox Catholic doctrine and Jesus still need apologists to defend them against nonsense and misinterpretation every day. And they are inspired and infallible and perfect. So this is about as surprising as the sun coming up.

Related Reading

Lawler vs. Pope Francis #2: Homosexuality & “Judging” [Dave Armstrong, 1-2-18]

Pope Francis on Homosexual Unions (Jimmy Akin, National Catholic Register, 3-21-13)

7 things you need to know about what Pope Francis said about gays (Jimmy Akin, National Catholic Register, 7-29-13)

Pope Francis’s new letter to homosexual Catholics (9 things to know and share)  (Jimmy Akin, National Catholic Register, 10-11-13)

What did Pope Francis say about the children of homosexual couples? 8 things to know and share (Jimmy Akin, National Catholic Register, 1-5-14)

Pope Francis on Apologizing to Gays (And More): 6 things to know and share (Jimmy Akin, National Catholic Register, 6-28-16)

On the Pope’s Remarks about Homosexuality (Scott P. Richert, Crisis, 8-1-13)

What Did the Pope Really Say about Gays in the Priesthood?  (Fr. Regis Scanlon, O.F.M. Cap., Crisis, 8-5-13)

Report: Pope Excommunicates Priest for Supporting Gay Marriage, Female Priest (Dr. Susan Berry, Breitbart, 9-24-13)

Judge Not (Tim Staples, Catholic Answers, 2-14-14) [Same-sex couples and homosexuality]

Is Pope Francis Duping Liberals on Marriage? (Paul Kengor, American Spectator, 11-21-14)

Pope Francis Shocks Liberals on Same-Sex “Marriage” (Paul Kengor, Crisis Magazine, 1-23-15)

Pope Affirms Traditional Marriage (Bill Donohue, Newsmax, 4-8-16)

Not heretical: Pope Francis’ approval of the Argentine bishops’ policy on invalid marriages (Dr. Jeff Mirus, Catholic Culture, 9-15-16)

Pope Francis explains why he celebrated the airborne marriage of two flight attendants [+ Facebook discussion] (Nicole Winfield, America, 1-22-18)

Pope Francis’s Words on Civil Unions Distorted by Editing (Fr. Matthew Schneider, Through Catholic Lenses, 10-22-20)

Has Pope Francis changed Church teaching on same-sex civil unions? (Dawn Eden Goldstein & Robert Fastiggi, Where Peter Is, 10-22-20)

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Or you may believe my work is worthy to support for the purpose of apologetics and evangelism in general. If so, please seriously consider a much-needed financial contribution. I’m always in need of more funds: especially monthly support. “The laborer is worthy of his wages” (1 Tim 5:18, NKJV). 1 December 2021 was my 20th anniversary as a full-time Catholic apologist, and February 2022 marked the 25th anniversary of my blog.
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Photo credit: damonj74 (11-26-05): Chicken Little [Flickr / CC BY-NC 2.0 license]

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2020-09-17T17:07:02-04:00

What would we do without this singularly wise and holy man and his all-wise outfit, One Vader Five? Steve Skojec tweeted on 5-9-20:
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Just because someone thinks about a decision for a while doesn’t make it the right decision. Ratzinger isn’t special. Like the rest of us, he makes mistakes, and the consequences of his decision have been disastrous. Maybe he thought it was the right thing for him to do… 
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And again the same day: … but at least he could have the decency to say he has regrets.
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My friend, Fr. Angel Sotelo commented:
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First, amen to the suggestion that people should quit picking on the emeritus pope. Benedict XVI is 93 years old. Decency and Christian virtue should move us to show some respect for a nonagenarian!!
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And even if the emeritus pope could see problems in the future, which he could not because only God can see the future, he was under no obligation whatsoever to continue as pope.
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Every person has their breaking point. While God gives us health and strength, we should keep up the work of our duties in life. But at his age, Benedict XVI decided that he had more than adequately sacrificed, toiled, and given all he could give to the Church–and that he could no longer stay and give, what the Church needed out of him.
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Only God can judge his decision. As for anyone else, I’ll wait until they are 93 years old and ready to go back to work full time before I’ll bother listening to their opinion on the emeritus pope.
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More attacks from Skojo directed to the German Shepherd (from 9-3-18):
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I am a father. If I told my children I just couldn’t anymore, and moved into a little cottage in the back yard, and stood by nodding approvingly while a new stepdad came in and started abusing them, & covering up for how his friends were doing that too…I didn’t abandon them?
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Fr. Angel Sotelo again responded to this outrageous bilge:
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Going to the dad example is apples and oranges on Skojec’s part.
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The vocations of Pope and dad, have very different duties (to confirm and teach bishops and laity vs. looking after a wife and kids).
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A dad looks after people who have immediate and direct needs that are physical. The Pope is not obligated to provide for our physical needs.
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And if a dad does become mentally or physically incapacitated, to the point where he might neglect his children, he would be obligated to surrender their care to his wife or others.
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In the Pope’s case, he in conscience must also surrender his office if his remaining would be a danger for the Church, or his own soul.
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Extreme reactionary Hilary White tweeted on 7-6-19:
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And isn’t this very much illustrative of the “conservative” idea: “At least JPII/Ratzinger/Burke/Mueller [insert conservative hero of the week] slowed down the rate of change…” Even if this could be proved, the destination remains the same.
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Steve replied on the same day:

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“Conservatism is just liberalism in slow motion” [quotation marks in original]
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I have noted for about eight years now that reactionaries are not only unjustly and falsely accusing and bashing Pope Francis, but also other popes, including (especially) Pope Benedict XVI, their former “darling”:

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Steve — in his infinite sage-like wisdom — , is convinced that Pope Francis is the worst pope ever; tweeting on 2-6-18:

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I flatly disagree we’ve been in worse situations. In terms of personal moral character, yes, you could make the case. In terms of a sitting pope undermining the very faith itself? No.
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(originally posted on 5-9-20 on Facebook)
2020-09-16T10:55:53-04:00

Why does anyone in possession of their rational faculties give these people a moment’s notice anymore? On 4-5-20, Elizabeth Yore wrote:

Jorge Bergoglio is busy rolling out the Abrahamic Faith Initiative—the New One World Religion…at lightning speed!

Jesus Christ has no role in this new religion. . . .

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Francis and his Vatican minions are sponsoring and promoting these global events to launch and celebrate the rollout of the new Abrahamic Faith. The title of Vicar of Christ, held by the Catholic Pontiff is not only an anathema, but more importantly, a theological hindrance, to the creation and rollout of the One World Religion.
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In this new religion of humanism, Jesus Christ is absent, eliminated as the Savior of the world, our Prince of Peace. In the new religion of Humanism, man and nature are equal and they replace God and His Son.
Thus, Francis needed to quickly and subtlety dispense with the title which elevates his role as Vicar of Christ. He placed it in the ash heap of footnotes where he is prone to hide his diabolical machinations of heresy.
Francis cannot afford to anger his globalist minders. (“Francis Footnote Follies: Why Francis Dropped the Title of Vicar of Christ…”, The Remnant; bolding in original)
Dr. Pedro Gabriel Domingues, a great defender of the pope, over at the Where Peter Is website, observed on my Facebook page:
The title “Vicar of Christ” has been a theological hindrance yes, but for those who claim to be Catholics while constantly attacking the current pontiff.
If the Pope is the Vicar of Christ, how can they sustain their erroneous argument that they “follow Christ, not the Pope”? So they are very eager to do away with that title themselves, but since they lack the authority to do so while claiming to be faithful Catholics, they will make up a lame excuse to say that it was Francis who did it for them, so they don’t need to follow him anymore.
Related Reading
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Abp. Viganò, the Pope, & the “Vicar of Christ” Nothingburger (with Catholic Theologian Dr. Robert Fastiggi and Apologist Karl Keating) [4-6-20]
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(originally 4-7-20 on Facebook)
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Photo credit: Peggy_Marco (9-27-12) [Pixabay / Pixabay License]
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2020-09-06T12:00:34-04:00

With Particular Reference to [Traditionalist] Timothy Gordon

This was a discussion on my Facebook page with Kyrby Caluna: a young zealous Catholic. His words will be in blue.

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To lump all “reactionaries” (a term that is unhelpful, and uncharitable) into one monolithic group is unjust, unfair, “reactionary”.

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If indeed Timothy Gordon is not anti-Vatican II in the way that the standard reactionary, is, then he is not reactionary. I’d be delighted if that is the case.
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I coined the term, “radical Catholic reactionary” in 2013 in order to differentiate extreme ways of thinking from legitimate traditionalism. It’s not “unhelpful, and uncharitable.” It’s a sociological necessity and act of charity towards millions of traditionalists (among whom I virtually include myself), who get lumped in with what used to be called “radtrads.”
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I have taken extreme care and have been precise in the definition. If you don’t think so, then be my guest to take on my articles where I define it, point-by-point. I just had this very conversation with Timothy Flanders. But first, I’m curious as to what you think my definition of “radical Catholic reactionary” is. Why don’t you tell me? I’ll know in one minute whether you have actually read or understood my explanations of it or not.
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Reactionary Trads or Catholic Radical Reactionaries believe the following:
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1. The Novus Ordo is invalid or objectively offensive to God.
— This, Timothy Gordon rejects. That is why, as he said, even some Trads are skeptical of him for viewing the Novus Ordo as valid.
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1. Incorrect. Reactionaries view the OF as valid, but “objectively inferior” to the EF. But it is true that now some reactionaries are so extreme (e.g., Abp. Vigano and Taylor Marshall) that they may indeed be rapidly moving towards the position you describe. It doesn’t follow, however, that the bulk of reactionaries, at least at this point, agree with their increasing anti-Catholic fanaticism.
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2. Vatican II is qualitatively different from preceding Councils because it is either invalid, and instrinsically heretical because of modernistic ambiguity.
— To be honest, this definition of yours is so generalized. I think even some of the non-Trads would accept that Vatican II is different in some ways to the preceding Councils and that it is somewhat ambiguous and even optimistic.
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2. Incorrect. Reactionaries (as I have categorized them, from long observation and experience) accept Vatican II as valid and not objectively heretical, but rather hampered by ambiguities deliberately injected into the texts by subversive dissident radicals. Again, as in #1, the cutting edge of reactionaries are moving further right at present, so this wouldn’t be true of them. But as a whole, it is as I have described.
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3. Vatican II is the root cause of the modernist crisis.
— Timothy Gordon rejects that. By textualism, he believes Vatican II does not teach doctrinal error. It is the Intentionalism of the modernists that is the cause of the crisis after the Council.
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3. Correct. This is one of the four hallmarks of reactionaryism, but it co-exists with the understanding that Vatican II is a valid ecumenical council. Reactionaryism (note closely) is all about going up to a “line” but not crossing over it; trying to have it both ways. So, e.g., “Vatican II is valid but we should simply ignore it, or it has harmed the Church,” “The New Mass is valid but it is objectively terrible liturgy and we ought not attend it (having a choice),” etc. etc. ad nauseam.
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4. The Conciliar Popes are either materially or formally heretics.

— Nope! The Credo of the People of God by Paul VI and John Paul II’s CCC attested to their orthodoxy. As Timothy Flanders said, Paul VI was a moderate (like Jacques Maritain), but not a heretic.

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4. Incorrect. Reactionaries accept all the popes as valid. But they want to bitch and complain about and rebuke and second-guess popes all the time (“more Catholic than the pope”). It’s primarily an attitudinal problem and not having an understanding of traditional reverence towards the pope (thinking like Protestants: particularly Anglicans).
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5. Ecumenism, religious liberty are “radical” novelties.
— If we stick to the texts, they are not radical. But some of their implementations are radical, and that’s a different issue.
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5. Correct. Your following statement is correct, but the reactionary rejects ecumenism as explicated in Vatican II and recent ecumenical encyclicals. They’re wrong. It’s a rather striking and rapid development, but is in line with past tradition, correctly understood.
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So you get a 40% grade for understanding my definitions and conceptions of what reactionaries believe. That ain’t very good. It’s a failing score in any class I’ve ever been in.
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Getting a grade of 40 for not exhaustively listing all characteristics of RadCathRs is okay. I never thought there is a grading system here.
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Timothy Gordon is simply not a reactionary, if your report is accurate. He’s a traditionalist, perhaps on the line between the two groups, or holding one or two reactionary beliefs. I think Taylor Marshall’s atrocious behavior (including casting him to the wind) has been a wake-up call for him.
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Again we can go on and on with all the radicalism of these reactionary traditionalists. But that isn’t Timothy Gordon. And I don’t know why I’m defending him. We are not even friends. But maybe because, I believe he is balanced in his assessment of Vatican II. As to his assessment of Pope Francis, that’s a different issue.
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The gist of his traditionalism is that textually Vatican II does not contain errors. But we know that intentionally, some of the drafters of the texts are modernists, and their intentions were weaponized and implemented after the Council.
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The crux of the matter with regards to Vatican II as Timothy Gordon sees it is: the need for a hermeneutics of continuity and the implicit presupposition why it is needed.
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For Richard DeClue Jr.  and Christopher Plance, the texts are clear. The hermeneutic was needed because there is already an on-going hermeneutics of rupture that is imposed on the texts by the modernists.
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For Timothy Gordon, there are some ambiguities in the texts and that is why a hermeneutic of continuity is needed. I think, George Weigel implicitly sides with Gordon for he said in his The Irony of Modern Catholic History and The Next Pope, two of his latest books, that “it took 20 years before the hermeneutical key of Vatican II was discovered” in the 1985 Synod of Bishops. And that implies that Vatican II has ambiguities that even the “Word On Fire FAQ on Vatican II” admits.
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Of course we need a hermeneutic of continuity; that’s simply how orthodoxy operates. The Holy Spirit protects the Church from falling into doctrinal error. The tradition is consistent with itself. That includes Vatican II and papal encyclicals. Duh! It’s simply self-evident for a faithful, orthodox Catholic.
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Everything needs to be (ultimately) authoritatively interpreted, including ecumenical councils, that are protected from error, because human beings are ignorant and sinful.
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It’s the same with the Bible. It’s perfect, inspired, infallible revelation, but without guidance from Holy Mother Church and Sacred Tradition, people believe all kinds of lies about the text and come up with Arianism, Sabellianism, Unitarianism, Christian Science, Mormon polytheism, Protestantism and Orthodoxy (insofar as they are in error), and who knows what else . . .
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I am not saying that I have and need to exhaustively list down all the characteristics of the RadCathRs. That’s a whole chapter in one of your books. I simply quote some of the obvious.
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And not only that, your whole book is all about them, just like the “bible” (as you said) of the RadCathRs written by Christopher Ferrara is all about neo-Catholics.
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Both terms are not helpful. Not all those who you consider as RadCathRs “are radical” with ears closed. And not those Ferrara calls Neo-Catholics have no problem whatsoever with the texts of Vatican II.
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Cardinal Ratzinger, for example, finds Gaudium et Spes as “too French” (referring to the implicit Teilhardism of some in the texts, i.e. too optimistic), and that it needs Luther (a German like him, whose theology of the cross balances the optimism). This Fr. Robert Barron (now a Bishop) explained in one of his talks. Ratzinger also have some problems with the Novus Ordo Liturgy. Though, when he became Pope he did not touched it. He simply encouraged the celebration of the TLM.
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So here’s the point, as I said. Calling people names when one is not aware entirely of their views (i.e. Gordon) is unhelpful. Point to what you think is their error and not lump them into a group you wished to dismiss.
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And if I am incorrect, maybe. Here’s where I quote some of your characteristics (again, this isn’t exhaustive):
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[he was actually citing my 2002 book, Reflections on Radical Catholic Reactionaries, and I didn’t realize it!]
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Cute. So you were largely citing me. The problem is that this book was written almost 18 years ago now. Things have changed a lot since then, especially since Pope Francis, and my own views have evolved. My present views have developed mostly from my definitions formulated in 2012-2013. See also my recent dialogue with Timothy Flanders.
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This is why I appealed to my views since that time, not back to my first book about it in 2002. Categories in actual life are often fluid and not always so clear cut in any given individual case. This is true of traditionalism and reactionaries as well.

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So I spend money for an obsolete book. Kidding! If I am not aware of your development, then a grade of 40 is unfair too. Kidding. Okay, I’ll read those articles.
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It still has some value. If anyone bought these books I would revise them. Mass Movements is more up to date.

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I’m not merely “calling people names.” I’m doing religious sociology (my major was sociology in college) and apologetics both, and being charitable to legitimate traditionalists by noting that those with extreme views ought not to be called by their chosen title.
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If reactionaries insist on bashing the Church, popes, councils, the Mass, and ecumenism, then by the same token they ought to expect to be criticized back. “If you can’t stand the heat, get out of the kitchen.”
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Yup, Gordon is a traditionalist. You called him reactionary. Maybe simply because he teamed-up with Marshall before? Is that an implicit criterion? It’s not helpful.
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I have already conceded that Timothy Gordon seems not to be a reactionary. He’s a traditionalist, who shows some similarity and commonality with reactionaries in some respects. In any event, reactionaries do form a distinct sociological group within the Catholic Church. Few theologians and apologists have analyzed it. Many more need to. I have, and I think my observations are valid and easily backed up by facts.
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Well, when one (Gordon) is making 100 videos with one of the most wacko, conspiratorial reactionaries around, one assumes that there is general agreement between them. Like I said, when Taylor Marshall cast him to the wind, he probably reconsidered some things and perhaps became less reactionary, or never was and concealed some of his opinions.
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I recognize that people sometimes change, and I do in his case. I haven’t followed him closely. I adjust my opinion if evidence and further information warrant it.
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Exactly, we need a hermeneutics of continuity. No one is denying that.
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I laid down some details about Gordon because your post accuses him of being a reactionary, which is unfair. So I clarified where he stood. He advocates for that hermeneutic like all of us. There is no questioning about a need for a hermeneutics of continuity. We all need it. The Pope said so. In fact, the Pope’s exact words are “a hermeneutic of reform, of continuity in the one-subject Church”. And as your friend Prof. Eduardo Echeverria said that because it is a hermeneutic of reform, there are reversals too but not the substance of doctrine but in the way it is explained.
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And as Fr. John O’Malley said in his book What Happened at Vatican II, the real novelty in Vatican II is the change from a juridical-legislative to a more epideictic-panegyric genre in the composition of the texts.
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I would definitely agree with you on Gordon being critical with the Pope. Scott Hahn too, is implicitly a papal critic, for vindicating Archbishop Viganó as an exemplary Bishop.
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Vatican II was first discussed by Timothy and Taylor on their video of the same title. In the surface they agree that there are ambiguities in the texts that needs clarification. But as the two of them elaborated their views on their channels, Gordon is vocal that one cannot read from Nostra Aetate the ecumenical distortions we have today, contradicting Taylor, Schneider, and Viganó’s views.
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Gordon will release a book on Vatican II soon. Maybe there he will clarify a lot.
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When asked what should Trads do? Gordon said, since many of the Trads are not reading the Vatican II texts, they should read them or read his book when it comes out because it will clarify and correct many misconception of some Trads regarding Vatican II.
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Maybe both you and Gordon are more and more in agreement on Vatican II. That’s how I see it. Although both of you are hundred miles apart regarding Pope Francis . . . 
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But unlike Phil Lawler who is quite questioning Vatican II now in some of his articles at Catholic Culture, Gordon is less concern with the text as containing errors, and more concern with the intentions of some of the drafters of the texts which havoc confusion after the Council.
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Well, I am delighted to hear this about Timothy Gordon. I noted a few years back that Lawler was starting to waver on Vatican II (and his wife just signed the big “statement” criticizing it). I have repeatedly defended Vatican II against reactionary criticism: especially in my 12-part reply to Paolo Pasqualucci.
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So I’ve done that work in that series and other papers: replying to what is being charged. I think it can help people who are trying to reconcile Vatican II with sacred tradition. I’ve never had the slightest problem doing so, whenever some [pseudo-]issue came up.
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Photo credit:
Timothy Gordon (right), with former sidekick Taylor Marshall [from The Libertarian Catholic web page]

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