2025-02-26T13:13:35-04:00

Does a traditional literal reading of “this is my body” entail “a thousand absurdities and contradictions”? The book of Job is instructive

Photo credit: The Last Supper, by Carl Bloch (1834-1890) [public domain / Wikimedia Commons]

Vs. Turretin #11: Eucharist, Pt. 1

François Turretin (1623-1687) was a Genevan-Italian Reformed scholastic theologian and renowned defender of the Calvinistic (Reformed) orthodoxy represented by the Synod of Dort, and was one of the authors of the Helvetic Consensus (1675). He is generally considered to be the best Calvinist apologist besides John Calvin himself. His Institutes of Elenctic Theology (three volumes, Geneva, 1679–1685) used the scholastic method. “Elenctic” means “refuting an argument by proving the falsehood of its conclusion.” Turretin contended against the conflicting Christian  perspectives of Catholicism and Arminianism. It was a popular textbook; notably at Princeton Theological Seminary, until it was replaced by Charles Hodge‘s Systematic Theology in the late 19th century. Turretin also greatly influenced the Puritans.

This is a reply to portions of a section of Institutes of Elenctic Theology (Vol. 3, 19th Topic: The Sacraments / 26th Question: The Meaning of the Sacramental Words). I utilize the edition translated by George Musgrave Giger and edited by James T. Dennison, Jr. (Presbyterian and Reformed Publishing Company, Phillipsburg, New Jersey: 1992 / 1994 / 1997; 2320 pages). It uses the KJV for Bible verses. I will use RSV unless otherwise indicated.  All installments of this series of replies can be found on my Calvinism & General Protestantism web page, under the category, “Replies to Francois Turretin (1632-1687).” Turretin’s words will be in blue.

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Are the words of the Supper to be understood properly and literally . . . or figuratively and sacramentally? The former we deny; the latter we affirm against the Romanists and Lutherans. [italicized in the original]

This is the debate in a nutshell. Does one take the words at face value (literally) or hold that they are metaphorical and symbolic only? The Church fathers, the medieval theologians, Catholicism, Orthodoxy, Lutheranism, and at least some “high” Anglicans take them literally, making this by far the majority position in historical and current Christianity.

The body of Christ reclined at the table in the first Supper, so therefore it could not have been handed to the disciples; rather the bread which was set before them on the table was handed to them. . . . 

The disciples . . . could not have given to these words any other sense than the tropical. (1) They saw at the same time the body of the Lord reclining at the table and the bread which he took, as things separated from each other, both as to nature and as to place, so that they must have conceived the most diverse ideas concerning them. . . . 

The sixth class is drawn from the rules of discourse, which in this argument do not allow a proper sense, but necessarily demand a figurative. The first is: “When a literal interpretation involves an absurdity and a contradiction, we must necessarily have recourse to the figurative sense.” Since the human intellect cannot comprehend how a thing can be and not be at the same time, it is forced to recur to a figure. Now it is evident that the sacramental words, taken properly and literally . . . involve a thousand absurdities and contradictions . . .

None of this is successful argumentation, because 1) it limits God in His omniscience and omnipotence, and 2) it’s unbiblical. Broadly speaking, God is everywhere and simultaneously can be said to be “in” certain things. God becoming a man in the incarnation is the most amazing manifestation of His taking on physical properties (God the Father and God the Holy Spirit being immaterial spirits). For example, the Bible asserts the equation of God (in some very real sense) with the pillars of cloud and of fire:

Exodus 13:21 And the LORD went before them by day in a pillar of cloud to lead them along the way, and by night in a pillar of fire . . .

Exodus 14:24 And in the morning watch the LORD in the pillar of fire and of cloud looked down upon the host of the Egyptians . . .

Exodus 33:9 When Moses entered the tent, the pillar of cloud would descend and stand at the door of the tent, and the LORD would speak with Moses.

Numbers 12:5 And the LORD came down in a pillar of cloud, and stood at the door of the tent, and called Aaron and Miriam . . .

Numbers 14:14 . . . thou goest before them, in a pillar of cloud by day and in a pillar of fire by night.

Deuteronomy 31:15 And the LORD appeared in the tent in a pillar of cloud . . .

Psalm 99:7 He spoke to them in the pillar of cloud . . .

Lest Turretin counter that this is merely symbolic, too, I submit this passage:

Exodus 33:10 And when all the people saw the pillar of cloud standing at the door of the tent, all the people would rise up and worship, every man at his tent door.

Only God can be worshiped; hence God truly was in the cloud. If He wasn’t, this act would have been rank idolatry (worship of mere matter). But the inspired text gives no indication whatsoever that it was improper. Likewise, God was in the burning bush in a very special way:

Exodus 3:4-6, 16 . . . God called to him out of the bush, “Moses, Moses!” And he said, “Here am I.” [5] Then he said, “Do not come near; put off your shoes from your feet, for the place on which you are standing is holy ground.” [6] And he said, “I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.” And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look at God. . . . [16] “Go and gather the elders of Israel together, and say to them, ‘The LORD, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, of Isaac, and of Jacob, has appeared to me’ . . . “

God was also specially present in the tabernacle and temple, in the Holy of Holies, and specifically between the cherubim on top of the ark of the covenant. Yet we are to believe that Jesus (Who is God) can’t will to enter — and actually enter — into what was formerly bread and wine and become substantially, bodily present in a miraculous way? To deny this is mere rationalistic special pleading, that lacks faith in God and belief in His omnipotent power.

If God could enter into a cloud or a fire, or in the holiest spaces in the ark, tabernacle, and temple, then He can do this by the same token, and the literal reading of the text is the fulfillment of it. Turretin put rationalistic philosophy in a higher place in this instance of his reasoning, than the Christian faith, and specifically faith in the supernatural.

Jesus was sovereign over the laws of nature and nature (matter) itself. He calmed a violent storm at sea (Mt 8:24-27). After His resurrection (when He had a body), Jesus passed through walls (Jn 20:19, 26). He raised the dead and in fact raised Himself (Jn 2:19-21; 10:17-18) because He had “the power which enables him even to subject all things to himself” (Phil 3:21) and because “in him all things hold together” (Col 1:17; Heb 1:3). He was omnipotent. Even some of Jesus’ followers had rather extraordinary and unusual miraculous gifts. Philip bilocated:

Acts 8:39-30 . . . the Spirit of the Lord caught up Philip; and the eunuch saw him no more, and went on his way rejoicing. [40] But Philip was found at Azo’tus, . . .

Philip was in Gaza with the Ethiopian eunuch when he was “caught up”. Then he appeared in Azotus, which is modern-day Ashdod: some 27 kilometers or about 17 miles from the northernmost point of Gaza. So a created human being could do that, by God’s power (and the prophet Elijah could stop rain for 3 1/2 years: Jas 5:16-18), but Jesus, Who is the omnipotent God, supposedly cannot do whatever amazing thing He desires to do? Such a notion is ludicrous and thoroughly anti-biblical. Turretin might deny that the ascended Jesus was omnipresent, but this is untrue as well:

Matthew 18:20 “For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I in the midst of them.”

Matthew 28:20 “. . . lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age.”

Ephesians 1:22-23 . . . the church, [23] which is his body, the fulness of him who fills all in all.

Colossians 3:11 . . . Christ is all, and in all.

Note that the Matthew 18 passage records Jesus’ words before He was resurrected or ascended, and He was already speaking in the present tense of an extraordinary trait akin to or consistent with omnipresence. Therefore, He certainly could have been sacramentally present in the former bread and wine even at the Last Supper, and this interpretation is at least as plausible as the merely symbolic one. If the objection is that He can be present spiritually or immaterially, but not physically, we reply that Paul equated the Church (an actual thing) with Jesus’ “body” in Ephesians 1:22-23 above.

Moreover, the risen, ascended, and glorified Jesus told the just-about-to-be-converted Paul, “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting” (Acts 9:5; cf. 22:7-8; 26:14-15). But the New Testament elsewhere — including his own words — states that Paul persecuted “the church” (Acts 8:1-3; 22:4; 26:9-11), which Paul later agreed was Jesus Himself (1 Tim 1:13). If Jesus, then, can equate Himself — including physically — with the “body of Christ”: the Church (and Paul follows suit), then by the same token, He can equate Himself with what was bread and wine; and He does so not only at the Last Supper, but repeatedly in John 6. St. Paul is every bit as literal as Jesus, since he wrote, “Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the body and blood of the Lord” (1 Cor 11:27).

He took bread from the table, blessed, broke and gave it to his disciples. He did and said nothing of this about his own body. 

Really?:

Matthew 26:26 Now as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed, and broke it, and gave it to the disciples and said, “Take, eat; this is my body.” (cf. Mk 14:22; Lk 22:19; 1 Cor 11:24)

They had often heard the Lord speaking figuratively (who had accustomed them by the frequency of his parables to this mode of speaking), which could be understood only tropically and by analogy (as in Mt. 13 and elsewhere).

Again, this no more has to be interpreted non-literally, than the pillars of cloud and fire and the burning bush do. They were literally outward physical manifestations of the presence of God (clouds are material and are composed of water); therefore, by analogy, the accidents or appearance of bread and wine can do the same thing. Granted, this takes things even further into the supernatural realm, but this is the omnipotent God, Who can do anything that is possible to do.

The time in which they lived, the business about which they were engaged, was mystical and full of various figures. For in the sacrament of the Passover, which Christ was celebrating, this tropical locution was constantly occurring.

That’s a very poor and unfortunate example for Turretin to use in his argument, since Jesus was literally the Passover lamb (Jn 1:29, 36; Acts 8:32; 1 Cor 5:7: “Christ, our paschal lamb, has been sacrificed”; 1 Pet 1:19; Rev 5:6, 12; 12:11; many other NT usages of “lamb” referring to Jesus). Passover lambs were real lambs with real blood, and Jesus’ crucifixion and shedding of blood on our behalf (Rom 3:25; 5:9; Eph 1:7; 2:13; Heb 9:14; 10:19; 1 Pet 1:19; 1 Jn 1:7; Rev 1:5) were quite real and sacrificial and sufficient to save the entire human race.

Nay, unless this had come into their minds that the bread was figuratively called a body, how could they have helped being disturbed by a thing so monstrous? They, who in the least difficulties were perplexed, who dispute among themselves how Christ was about to go to the Father; and moved the question how he would go out of the world; who understood nothing of what he had said concerning his heavenly Father, how could they have been so ready to believe what all reason repudiates—that Christ was reclining at the table in their sight and that he was invisibly included under the bread?

They didn’t have to fully understand; at this point they were not yet indwelt with the Holy Spirit, as all Christian believers are. But they were called to accept His mysterious word because He was God and had proven that He was to them over and over with signs and various teachings. What they needed to do, therefore, was to believe in faith. This is precisely what they did do as described in John 6, after other “disciples” objected to Jesus’ “hard saying” that they claimed no one could “listen” to (Jn 6:60) and “did not believe” (6:64), with the result being that they “drew back and no longer went about with him” (6:66) because He taught the Real Presence. But St. Peter, still faithful, said:

John 6:68-69 . . .  “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life; [69] and we have believed, and have come to know, that you are the Holy One of God.”

They did what Job did in the face of utter mystery and confusion: they believed God — though confused and perplexed — because He was God. God drives home this point over and over in that book:

Job 9:3, 8-12 If one wished to contend with him, one could not answer him once in a thousand times. . . . [8] who alone stretched out the heavens, and trampled the waves of the sea; [9] who made the Bear and Orion, the Plei’ades and the chambers of the south; [10] who does great things beyond understanding, and marvelous things without number. [11] Lo, he passes by me, and I see him not; he moves on, but I do not perceive him. [12] Behold, he snatches away; who can hinder him? Who will say to him, ‘What doest thou’?

Job 38:1-2, 4-5 Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind: [2] “Who is this that darkens counsel by words without knowledge? . . . [4] “Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth? Tell me, if you have understanding. [5] Who determined its measurements — surely you know! Or who stretched the line upon it?

Job 38:31-33 “Can you bind the chains of the Plei’ades, or loose the cords of Orion? [32] Can you lead forth the Maz’zaroth in their season, or can you guide the Bear with its children? [33] Do you know the ordinances of the heavens? Can you establish their rule on the earth?

Job 40:1-2 And the LORD said to Job: [2] “Shall a faultfinder contend with the Almighty? He who argues with God, let him answer it.”

Job 42:1-3, 6 Then Job answered the LORD: [2] “I know that thou canst do all things, and that no purpose of thine can be thwarted. [3] ‘Who is this that hides counsel without knowledge?’ Therefore I have uttered what I did not understand, things too wonderful for me, which I did not know. . . . [6] therefore I despise myself, and repent in dust and ashes.”

I wrote in my cover story in Patrick Madrid’s Envoy Magazine, Jan/Feb 2000 issue, entitled, “Is This God?”:

The Eucharist was intended by God as a different kind of miracle from the outset, requiring more profound faith, as opposed to the “proof” of tangible, empirical miracles. But in this it was certainly not unique among Christian doctrines and traditional beliefs – many fully shared by our Protestant brethren. The Virgin Birth, for example, cannot be observed or proven, and is the utter opposite of a demonstrable miracle, yet it is indeed a miracle of the most extraordinary sort.

Likewise, in the Atonement of Jesus the world sees a wretch of a beaten and tortured man being put to death on a cross. The Christian, on the other hand, sees there the great miracle of Redemption and the means of the salvation of mankind – an unspeakably sublime miracle, yet who but those with the eyes of faith can see or believe it? In fact, the disciples (with the possible exception of St. John, the only one present) didn’t even know what was happening at the time. . . .

Many Christian beliefs require a great deal of faith, even relatively “blind” faith. Protestants manage to believe in a number of such doctrines (such as the Trinity, God’s eternal existence, omnipotence, angels, the power of prayer, instantaneous justification, the Second Coming, etc.). Why should the Real Presence be singled out for excessive skepticism and unchecked rationalism? . . .

This pervasive anti-eucharistic bias smacks of an analogy to the Jewish and Muslim belief that the Incarnation as an unthinkable (impossible?) task for God to undertake. They view the Incarnation in the same way as the majority of Protestants regard the Eucharist. For them God wouldn’t or couldn’t or shouldn’t become a man. For evangelicals God wouldn’t or couldn’t or shouldn’t become substantially, sacramentally present under the outward forms of bread and wine. I think the dynamic is the same. “Coulda woulda shoulda” theology is not biblical theology. Every Christian exercises faith in things which are very difficult to grasp with the natural mind, because they are revealed to be true by God in the Bible. I have attempted to show why I think Protestants inconsistently require a higher criterion of “proof” where the Holy Eucharist is concerned.

Turretin, following Calvin and Zwingli, wants to play the role of the unbelieving and rebellious disciples and of Job’s miserable “comforters.” He finds it too difficult to believe that God could or would become bodily present in what was bread and wine. That unbelief and denial of the supernatural and God’s omnipotence and the plain words of Jesus (however incomprehensible they may have been at first hearing) are, I respectfully submit, the things that are truly “monstrous” and what bring about “a thousand absurdities and contradictions.”

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Practical Matters:  I run the most comprehensive “one-stop” Catholic apologetics site: rated #1 for Christian sites by leading AI tool, ChatGPT — endorsed by popular Protestant blogger Adrian Warnock. Perhaps some of my 5,000+ free online articles or fifty-six books have helped you (by God’s grace) to decide to become Catholic or to return to the Church, or better understand some doctrines and why we believe them. If you believe my full-time apostolate is worth supporting, please seriously consider a much-needed monthly or one-time financial contribution. “The laborer is worthy of his wages” (1 Tim 5:18, NKJV).
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Photo credit: The Last Supper, by Carl Bloch (1834-1890) [public domain / Wikimedia Commons]

Summary: Renowned Calvinist theologian François Turretin contended that Jesus’ words “This is my body” must necessarily be figuratively interpreted. But I show why this miserably fails.

2025-01-29T20:34:10-04:00

Photo credit: Direction Paradox Contradiction, by CDD20 (12-3-21) [Pixabay / Pixabay Content License]

Chapter 10 of my book (available for free online), Inspired!: 198 Supposed Biblical Contradictions Resolved. See the Introduction and ch. 1: How Do Atheists Define a “Biblical Contradiction”? All Bible passages RSV unless otherwise noted.

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  1. “Then the Lord God formed a man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being” (Gen. 2:7). Breath is central to the Genesis idea of life. In the verse above, “the man became a living being,” is literally translated as, “the man became a breathing creature.” Breath is roughly synonymous with life. Not only does the Bible say that the “breath of life” is what living things have, it’s what they don’t have when they die (Gen. 7:22; Deut. 20:16). “You formed my inward parts; you knitted me together in my mother’s womb” (Psalm 139:13). “Knitted” is more literally “wove,” as would be done with a protective screen or fence woven from branches, and by implication it can mean to fence in, cover, or protect. Yes, it’s important for a fetus to be in a protective womb when it is developing, but this simply acknowledges the gestation process. During that process, you aren’t you, but (with luck) you will be by the end.

The fallacy here is thinking that breath is all there is to a living being — the totality of its “living principle” — , or that the Bible supposedly states that. The Bible simply notes the obvious fact that a living person breathes and that a dead person ceases to breathe. But does this logically deny or preclude other factors such as brain waves and a heartbeat? No. If I say, for example, “all baseball pitchers are able to throw a baseball,” I state a true and universal statement regarding baseball pitchers. But I have not exhausted all that they have to do to pitch with any success. They also have to 1) control the ball (i.e., throw strikes, and try to throw down and away, inside and outside, etc.), 2) be able to throw fast, 3) be able to throw a curve ball, and 4) be able to combine different pitches, to fool batters. Likewise, if I say, “all persons who are alive breathe” I haven’t exhausted all that is true about them; most notably, that they must also have brain waves and a heartbeat.

The atheist wants to play games with Psalm 139:13, but neglects to see the obvious presupposition that the Bible is obviously equating the preborn person with the person who continues to grow before birth and is eventually born, since the writer, King David, refers to “my inward parts” and “you knitted me” and “my mother’s womb.” It’s simple logic: 1) I am “me.” 2) If I refer to myself before I was born as “me”, it must refer to the same person. In other words, if a = b and b = c, then a = c. It’s one of the most basic rules of logic (called the transitive law). It’s the same person before or after birth. It’s easy to show that the Bible regards the preborn person as a person, indistinguishable in essence from a born person. I already showed how Psalm 139:13 presupposes this, by very basic logic. But there are more passages along these lines:

Genesis 25:21-22 And Isaac prayed to the LORD for his wife, because she was barren; and the LORD granted his prayer, and Rebekah his wife conceived. The children struggled together within her; . . .

Judges 16:17  “. . .  I have been a Nazirite to God from my mother’s womb. . . .” 

Ruth 1:11 Have I yet sons in my womb . . .?

Job 3:3 . . . “A man-child is conceived.”

Job 31:18 (for from his youth I reared him as a father, and from his mother’s womb I guided him);

Psalm 51:5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me.

Isaiah 49:1, 5 . . . The LORD called me from the womb, from the body of my mother he named my name. . . . And now the LORD says, who formed me from the womb to be his servant, . . . (cf. 44:2, 24)

Jeremiah 1:5 Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I appointed you a prophet to the nations.

Tobit 4:4 Remember, my son, that she faced many dangers for you while you were yet unborn. . . .

Wisdom 7:1 I also am mortal, like all men, a descendant of the first-formed child of earth; and in the womb of a mother I was molded into flesh,

Sirach 49:7 . . . he had been consecrated in the womb as prophet, . . .

2 Maccabees 7:27 . . . I carried you nine months in my womb, . . .

Luke 1:15 . . . he will be filled with the Holy Spirit, even from his mother’s womb.

Luke 1:36 And behold, your kinswoman Elizabeth in her old age has also conceived a son; . . .

Luke 2:21 . . . he was called Jesus, the name given by the angel before he was conceived in the womb.

Romans 9:10 . . .  Rebecca had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac,

Galatians 1:15 . . . he who had set me apart before I was born, and had called me through his grace,

  1. What is the difference between these golden cherubim (Exod. 25:18-12) and the golden calf (Exod. 32:4-35)? Why is it permitted to fabricate golden cherubim and not the golden calf?

Short answer: because one was intended to be gross idolatry (the calf) and the other was a permitted non-idolatrous religious image, sanctioned by God. There are many examples of permitted images in Old Testament worship, including the temple and ark of the covenant (in other words, not all images were forbidden “graven images” or idolatrous). The ark of the covenant, which included the two golden cherubim on top, was never intended to be a representation of God. One can search the Bible in vain and never find the slightest hint of any such thing. But nowhere in the Bible are the Jews permitted to build a calf as an “image” of God. This was an outright violation of the injunctions against “molten images” (Exod. 34:17; Lev. 19:4; Num. 33:52; Deut. 27:15: all condemn such idols, using the same Hebrew word which appears in Exod. 32:4, 8, 17 (massekah). God made it clear that this was outrageous idolatry, in proclaiming: “they have made for themselves a molten calf, and have worshiped it and sacrificed to it” (Exod. 32:8; cf. Ps. 106:19-21).

  1. Is anger in and of itself a sin (Matt. 5:22), or not necessarily (Eph. 4:26)?

Matthew 5:22 is a proverbial-type, non-literal utterance, which by nature allows of exceptions. The exception is precisely shown in Ephesians 4:26: “Be angry but do not sin; do not let the sun go down on your anger.” If it’s possible to be angry without sin, as this passage proves, then we can’t possibly make a blanket statement that all anger is sin, period. Matthew is not asserting that, anyway, because Jesus is uttering a proverb. But Paul in Ephesians is being literal. It’s apples and oranges being compared; therefore, no contradiction.

  1. How can Paul teach us to not covet (Rom. 7:7; 13:9), but also teach that it’s okay (1 Cor. 12:31; 14:39)?

Clearly, different senses of the word “covet” are in play here. The Romans passages reiterate one of the Ten Commandments, where “covet” means “sinful desire for” or “jealousy”, “envy” etc. The Greek word used in both is epithumeó. It’s used mostly in this negative sense, but not always. 1 Corinthians 12:31, on the other hand, in RSV reads “earnestly desire.” The antiquated language of “covet” in the verse appears in only 6 out of 61 English translations that I have consulted. The Greek word in both passages in 1 Corinthians (also 14:1 in the same sense) is zéloó. It can be used in both senses: in a bad sense (envy, jealousy: see Acts 7:9; 17:5; 1 Cor. 13:4) and a good one, as in these two passages and 1 Corinthians 14:1): meaning “to desire earnestly or pursue.” The usage of the word “covert” is exactly the same in English. It has a “bad behavior” definition and a “good / neutral” one, much like the word “pride”: one of the deadly sins, but also used in a morally neutral sense of having pride in one’s children or spouse, etc.

  1. How can the Bible teach that we must obey the laws of men as the will of God (Rom. 13:1-4; 1 Pet. 2:13-15), yet also teach that we must obey God, not men (Acts 5:29), with an example of disciples disobeying a Jewish council (Acts 5:40-42)?

Rules almost always have exceptions. Paul and Peter both gave the general good principle that — all in all — we obey laws and governments and rulers. But the Jewish council in Acts laid down an unjust law that no Christian could follow: “they . . .charged them not to speak in the name of Jesus.” Early Christians were murdered by the Roman government because they wouldn’t swear an oath to Caesar that violated their consciences. We mustn’t do the latter, and that sometimes means going against laws. Many laws have been unjust and wicked, such as those upholding slavery and legalizing childkilling and infanticide, along with a host of other immoral practices that laws sometimes protect and sanction.

  1. How could Paul teach against stealing (Eph. 4:28), but then admit to stealing (2 Cor. 11:8)?

His statement, “I robbed other churches” (2 Cor. 11:8) is clearly sarcastic, arising from the circumstance of being falsely accused. He was graphically making the point that he had accepted monetary support from other local churches (“by accepting support from them in order to serve you”: 11:8; “my needs were supplied by the brethren who came from Macedonia”: 11:9), so that the Corinthians did not have to support him in that way (“I preached God’s gospel without cost to you”: 11:7; “I refrained and will refrain from burdening you in any way”: 11:9).

  1. How could Paul state that he doesn’t use trickery (1 Thess. 2:3), but elsewhere admit that he did (2 Cor. 12:16)?

Paul does no such thing in 2 Corinthians. He was falsely accused of same by the Corinthians (“I was crafty, you say, and got the better of you by guile”). He asks rhetorically, in denial, in the next verse: “Did I take advantage of you . . .?” And he defends himself for two more verses, proclaiming in 12:19: “It is in the sight of God that we have been speaking in Christ, and all for your upbuilding . . .”

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Practical Matters:  I run the most comprehensive “one-stop” Catholic apologetics site: rated #1 for Christian sites by leading AI tool, ChatGPT — endorsed by popular Protestant blogger Adrian Warnock. Perhaps some of my 5,000+ free online articles or fifty-six books have helped you (by God’s grace) to decide to become Catholic or to return to the Church, or better understand some doctrines and why we believe them. If you believe my full-time apostolate is worth supporting, please seriously consider a much-needed monthly or one-time financial contribution. “The laborer is worthy of his wages” (1 Tim 5:18, NKJV).
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PayPal donations are the easiest: just send to my email address: [email protected]. Here’s also a second page to get to PayPal. You’ll see the term “Catholic Used Book Service”, which is my old side-business. To learn about the different methods of contributing (including Zelle and 100% tax-deductible donations if desired), see my page: About Catholic Apologist Dave Armstrong / Donation Information.
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You can support my work a great deal in non-financial ways, if you prefer; by subscribing to, commenting on, liking, and sharing videos from my YouTube channel, Catholic Bible Highlights, where I partner with Kenny Burchard (see my own videos), and/or by signing up to receive notice for new articles on this blog. Just type your email address on the sidebar to the right (scroll down quite a bit), where you see, “Sign Me Up!” Thanks a million!
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Photo credit: Direction Paradox Contradiction, by CDD20 (12-3-21) [Pixabay / Pixabay Content License]

Summary: Ch. 10 of Dave Armstrong’s book, “Inspired!”: in which he examines 198 examples of alleged biblical contradictions & disproves all of these patently false claims.

2025-01-09T17:18:20-04:00

De Fide Dogma on Communion in One Species Only; Theological Discord; Sola Scriptura
Photo credit: 1679 edition of Gerhard’s Confessio Catholica (Frankfurt) [public domain / Internet Archive]
Many Lutheran scholars and apologists consider Johann Gerhard (1582-1637), a Protestant scholastic, to be the most knowledgeable Lutheran apologist in history. What’s particularly notable about him is that he actually directly interacted with the best Catholic apologetics and theological sources (such as St. Robert Bellarmine: 1542-1621). According to the 1911 Encyclopaedia Britannica article on Gerhard, he was “regarded as the greatest living theologian of Protestant Germany.” And it described his multi-volume book, “the Confessio Catholica (1633–1637)” as “an extensive work which seeks to prove the evangelical and catholic character of the doctrine of the Augsburg Confession [1530, written by Philip Melanchthon] from the writings of approved Roman Catholic authors.”
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Gerhard’s words will be in blue. The first volume of this work is 1008 pages, and is in the public domain. I will be utilizing Google Translate to render the original Latin into English (with my own slight modifications to make it more readable). I use RSV for scriptural citations.

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Since they demonstrate the uncertainty of the very papal dogma that we are attacking, they thereby confirm our opinion opposed to the same papal dogma. But since those differences argue the uncertainty of papal dogmas, the matter itself is proved, and can be confirmed in detail from Bellarmine himself. For he, in Book 4. On the Eucharist, Chapter 23, Prop. 4, forms the following proposition: “No spiritual fruit is taken from two kinds, which is not taken from one”; he adds: “this proposition is not at all certain, since theologians think variously about it, nor does the Council openly define it.” Therefore, transferring the hypothesis to the theory, we can say that those statements, about which theologians variously argue, either before or after the definition of the Council of Trent, are not really certain, and therefore those differences of theologians and pontiffs are not to be rendered by the papal dogmas, which confirm our opinion opposed to them.

He’s either citing St. Robert Bellarmine out of context or erroneously  or interprets him wrongly, since Trent was clear on this point. In its 21st session in 1562, in the Decree on Communion Under Both Species, chapter 3, it stated:

That Christ whole and entire, and a true Sacrament are received under either species.

It moreover declares, that although, as hath been already said, our Redeemer, in that last supper, instituted, and delivered to the apostles, this sacrament in two species, yet is to be acknowledged, that Christ whole and entire and a true sacrament are received under either species alone; and that therefore, as regards the fruit thereof, they, who receive one species alone, are not defrauded of any grace necessary to salvation. (my italics and bolding; Denzinger 1729; p. 415 in the 43rd edition, 2012)

Moreover, in its session 13 in October 1551, the Council had also declared in the Decree on the Sacrament of the Eucharist:

Wherefore it is most true, that as much is contained under either species as under both; for Christ whole and entire is under the species of bread, and under any part whatsoever of that species; likewise the whole (Christ) is under the species of wine, and under the parts thereof. (Chapter 3; Denzinger 1641, p. 394)
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If any one denieth, that, in the venerable sacrament of the Eucharist, the whole Christ is contained under each species, and under every part of each species, when separated; let him be anathema. (Canon 3; Denzinger 1653, p. 397)
The Council of Florence had stated the same doctrine in November 1439, in the Bull of Union with the Armenians: Exsultate Deo:
The whole Christ is contained under the species of bread and the whole Christ under the species of wine. Further, the whole Christ is present under any part of the consecrated host or the consecrated wine when separated from the rest. (Denzinger 1321, p. 341)
So had the Council of Constance in its session 13 on 15 June 1415: Decree on Communion Only under the Species of Bread: “The whole Body and Blood of Christ are truly contained under both the species of bread and the species of wine. . . . It should be held as a law . . .” (Denzinger 199, p. 326)
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Moreover, Ludwig Ott’s widely used reference work, Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma (2018 revision), asserts (p. 409) that these doctrines are classified as de fide; that is, the very highest level of dogmatic certainty. Lastly, the Lutheran belief in some sort of “divided Christ” in Holy Communion (if one form is received, as I always do, myself) is theologically, philosophically, and logically inadequate, as well as unbiblical:
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The Host and Chalice Both Contain Christ’s Body and Blood [National Catholic Register, 12-10-19]
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Giovanni Pico della Mirandola states the same thing in different words in his Apology, writing: “Discord in writers is an argument for falsehood, when it is necessary that what one of the disagreeing parties says is false, because necessarily the other part of the tradition is false.” For this reason Augustine, in book 16 of the City of God, proves the truth of Scripture from the mutual concord of its writers, in which all agree and none disagree with another, which is attested by the fact of Scripture, to indubitable and infallible truth.
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It’s pretty humorous and the very height of irony when a Lutheran cites a Catholic philosopher talking about discord and contradictory opinions, and seeks to (wrongly) apply that against Catholicism, rather than addressing the innumerable contradictions inherent in Protestant denominationalism, which will never be — and never could be — resolved, due to the fundamentally flawed nature of their rule of faith. This is certainly the sort of approach that Jesus condemned, when He said,
Matthew 7:3-5 Why do you see the speck that is in your brother’s eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? [4] Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when there is the log in your own eye? [5] You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother’s eye.

The beginning of the truly Catholic religion is this, that the word of God, contained in the prophetic and apostolic writings, should perfectly inform us of all things necessary for faith, and consequently be the only norm and rule of all controversies of faith which are discussed in the Church. Therefore, the first principle is that Scripture is perfect. For example, 1. By the praise of perfection attributed to Scripture, we understand this, that it fully and perfectly informs us of all things which are necessary for faith and morals. 2. We do not call Scripture perfect because all things which are necessary for faith and morals are contained in the Scriptures in a large number of letters and in as many words, but we say that some are contained explicitly, some implicitly in them, so that they can be deduced from them by legitimate and immutable confluence.

He offers a fairly standard definition of sola Scriptura: the historically novel and unbiblical Protestant rule of faith.

Rev. 22. v. 18. & 19. wherefore the Apostle warns, that no one should do more than what is written 1. Cor. 4. v. 6.

Revelation 22:18-19 I warn every one who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if any one adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book, [19] and if any one takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.

This has nothing do do with the question of whether legitimate unwritten traditions exist. It simply warns about adding to or taking anything away from the one book of Revelation. Once we enter into Protestant defenses of sola Scriptura, non sequiturs are ubiquitous. They never cease to amaze me, in their wrongheadedness and argumentative bankruptcy. I’ve already dealt with the failure of 1 Corinthians 4:6 as an alleged prooftext, so it need not detain us any further.

From a perfect voluntary cause, willing and not hindered to produce a perfect effect, a perfect effect proceeds. Such is the cause of Scripture, since He willed that the Scriptures should be written and come forth for that end, that from His own power and will they should fully lead us to faith, and no impediment to the production of this effect intervenes or could intervene.

This is clearly untrue (and equally as clearly, silly), and it is because human free will can and does interfere with God’s will for His inspired Scripture. Hence St. Peter wrote about St. Paul’s writings: “There are some things in them hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures” (2 Pet 3:16). And Paul refers to those who “will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own likings, and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander into myths” (2 Tim 4:3-4).

Thus, the perfect effect” of the truth of Scripture is and always can be prevented by willful human obstinacy and pride. A perfect Scripture doesn’t guarantee that all will accept and understand and follow this perfect Scripture and come to total agreement because God wills that. Any three-second pondering of Protestant division proves this.

Rom. 1:1-2, explains all the parts of Christianity, so that from it we may have faith in Christ and the doctrine of good works.

It does no such thing:

Romans 1:1-2 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, set apart for the gospel of God [2] which he promised beforehand through his prophets in the holy scriptures,

This refers only to the gospel. St. Paul defines the gospel in Acts 13:30-33 as the resurrection of Jesus and as His death, burial, and resurrection in 1 Corinthians 15:1-8. Therefore, Romans 1:1-2 does not explain “all the parts of Christianity.”

nothing should be added or taken away, Deuteronomy. 4. v. 2. chap. 12. v.32. (which is to be understood of the word written is evident from Deuteronomy. 28. v. 58. &  Jol. i. v. 8.) Prov. 3o. v.5. Galatians .i .v. 8.

This is the same repeated fallacy dealt with in regard to Revelation 22:18-19 above.  Deuteronomy 4:2 and 12:32 teach that Scripture (at that time, the Torah, or the first five books of the Old Testament) shouldn’t be added to or subtracted from. It’s very simple. This is not the same thing as saying that “no oral tradition can also exist.” In the same book, after all (8:20-22) it’s stated that prophets speak the “word” of the Lord, “in the name of the Lord.” Such prophecies go beyond Scripture itself. Thus, Deuteronomy doesn’t prove sola Scriptura; it disproves it.

Proverbs 30:5-6 states that “Every word of God proves true . . . Do not add to his words.” It’s the same concept again. Protestants assume that “word of God” is the equivalent of “Bible.” But it’s not. It (like “word of the Lord”) also refers to God’s personal revelation to prophets: “the word of God came to Shemai’ah” (1 Kgs 12:22); “the word of God came to John the son of Zechari’ah in the wilderness” (Lk 3:2). 1 Corinthians 14:30 even refers to extra-biblical continuing new covenant prophecy as “revelation.”

Galatians 1:18 is about false gospels, not about whether Scripture is the only infallible rule of faith. It gets very wearisome having to point out these obvious things. But it happens in every discussion about sola Scriptura because Protestants have no genuine biblical proof of it at all, let alone compelling ones. So instead we get irrelevant nonsense such as the above, even (the most amazing thing) from brilliant minds and scholars like Gerhard.

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Photo credit: 1679 edition of Gerhard’s Confessio Catholica (Frankfurt) [public domain / Internet Archive]

Summary: Second of two replies to the “Confessio” of Lutheran theologian Johann Gerhard (1582-1637), in which he sought to confirm Lutheran doctrines by various Catholic statements.

2025-01-09T00:53:52-04:00

Ecclesial Infallibility; Trent: Protestants Are Regenerated Christians By Virtue of Baptism; Total Clearness of Scripture?; St. Bernard & the Catholic Church on Meritorious Works

Photo credit: Johann Gerhard (1582-1637) [public domain / Internet Archive Open Library: Confessio Catholica]
Lutheran scholars and apologists widely consider Johann Gerhard (1582-1637), a Protestant scholastic, to be the most knowledgeable Lutheran apologist in history. What’s particularly notable about him is that he actually directly interacted with the best Catholic apologetics and theological sources (such as St. Robert Bellarmine: 1542-1621). According to the 1911 Encyclopaedia Britannica article on Gerhard, he was “regarded as the greatest living theologian of Protestant Germany.” And it described his multi-volume book, “the Confessio Catholica (1633–1637)” as “an extensive work which seeks to prove the evangelical and catholic character of the doctrine of the Augsburg Confession [1530, written by Philip Melanchthon] from the writings of approved Roman Catholic authors.”
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Gerhard’s words will be in blue. The first volume of this work is 1008 pages, and is in the public domain. I will be utilizing Google Translate to render the original Latin into English (with my own slight modifications to make it more readable). I use RSV for scriptural citations.

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Paul the Apostle, arguing against the Gentiles, produces testimony from three gentile poets, . . . First, he opposes the philosophers of the Athenians from the Phenomena of Aratus [Acts 17:28] . . . The Corinthians, some of whom deny the flesh, adduce a different refutation from . . . Menander [1 Cor 15:33]. . . . The third is . . . Epimenides of Crete [Acts 17:28; Titus 1:12]. . . . Moses, Christ, and Paul . . . bring to light the power of truth from the fact that it bursts forth even from the mouths of the unwilling.

Gerhard is explaining how one can appeal to certain portions of one’s opponents’ views (in this instance, Catholics) in order to bolster one’s own arguments, and how St. Paul used the same technique in his preaching and epistles. I fully agree with the principle, insofar as it is applicable in a given case. I edited an entire book consisting of “traditional / Catholic” utterances of Martin Luther.

I deny, of course, that Lutheran doctrine is entirely in accord with Catholic doctrine (so would, I’m pretty sure, the vast majority of Lutherans today), as Melanchthon seems to have vainly imagined in 1530; and that will be the thesis lying behind my replies in this series. But it’ll be fun to see Gerhard reiterate Melanchthon’s endeavor and give it the old college try.

Gerhard will be citing arguments from Catholics that he deems to be in harmony with Lutheran doctrine, just as I often happily note many points of teaching of Luther and Calvin that are perfectly consistent with our view. Truth is truth, wherever it is found (and unity is always to be sought as much as possible), and there is a lot of truth in Protestantism, unfortunately mixed with significant error.

Bellarmine, . . . Book 4, on Ecclesiastes, chapter 16, § 1, among the notes of Ecclesiastes, in the thirteenth place, refers to the confession of adversaries, and adds: “Such is the force of truth, that it sometimes compels even adversaries to give their testimony.”

He shows that Catholics like St. Robert Bellarmine also argue in the same fashion: citing opponents in agreement on particular points. I think virtually any good debater would be found doing the same.

The papal writers are fond of boasting the most. 1. Of the infallibility of the Roman Church. Our argument is, writes Bellarmine, lib. 3. de Ecclesiastes, chap. 14,The Church cannot err absolutely, neither in absolutely necessary things, nor in others, which it proposes to us to believe or do, whether they are expressly stated in the Scriptures or not.” . . . We do not construct such an argument against this boasting. When the sons of the Roman Church bring forth such things in controversial dogmas, which confirm our belief, then they either err or do not err. If the former is stated, the boasting of the Pontiffs that the Roman Church does not err is false. If the latter, the accusation of the Pontiffs that our churches are promoting erroneous dogmas is false.

The famous baseball pitcher of the 1930s, Dizzy Dean, once remarked that “it ain’t braggin’ if you can do it.” The first task in this discussion is to determine what the Bible teaches about the Church. Is it infallible in matters of doctrines made binding on Christian believers? And of course we argue that it is, and we do because we believe that the Bible teaches it.

The two clearest reasons why are the Jerusalem Council (Acts 15), in which a decision was made — confirmed by the Holy Spirit Himself (15:28) which makes it not only infallible but inspired — that was binding on Christians many hundreds of miles away, in Asia Minor (Turkey: see Acts 16:4). The second compelling prooftext is 1 Timothy 3:15 (“. . . the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth.”), which, when analyzed deeply enough, strongly asserts ecclesial infallibility.

Once this is determined, then the relevant question is how to locate and identify the one true Church that is assumed to be in existence in Holy Scripture, as opposed to whether this Church is infallible or not. Gerhard assumes that the very claim is ridiculous “boasting” out of necessity, because, I submit, no Protestant can dare assert an infallible Church, lest their own claims become immediately ridiculous: seeing that in their relentless divisions, they can never completely agree with each other on doctrine. In that profoundly unbiblical scenario of denominationalism, infallibility isn’t even on the radar screen, since Protestants can’t even agree on things as basic as baptism and the Holy Eucharist. I have pointedly described this tragi-comic state of affairs as “the Protestant quest for uncertainty.”

Therefore, rather than seriously grapple with the biblical teaching regarding the Church, they must belittle one of our self-consistent claims to be in adherence to that same biblical teaching. This argument (or, rather, accusation, I should say) is just plain silly and unserious. It’s also fascinating and telling that Gerhard uses the term “our churches” — whereas Bellarmine is presupposing and discussing the biblical terminology of “the Church” and (for many and various other reasons) identifying this with the Catholic Church.

2. On the denial of the truth of our Churches. Bellarmine, book 4, on Ecclesiastes, chapter 16, writes: “Catholics are nowhere found praising the doctrine or life of any heretics.” Therefore, if it were demonstrated that the sons of the Roman Church in many ways praised and approved our doctrine, differing from the common confession of the Roman Church, and indeed in those very chapters about which there is controversy between us and the Pontiffs, Bellarmine would be forced to admit that either that boasting was vain and futile, or that we were not heretics.

There is a middle position here, which I think is the actual true state of affairs. Catholics don’t assert that Protestants are utter heretics in the sense that, say, Arians and Sabellians (those who deny the Holy Trinity) are. It’s a mixed bag of many lesser errors, but not the most dangerous and heretical ones, that remove one from the category of Christian altogether. And in fact, most Lutherans (including Luther and Melanchthon in the beginning) believe the same about Catholics. We hold that Protestants are partially heretical in those instances where they depart from constant apostolic tradition, passed down in the Catholic Church from the beginning.

The Council of Trent (which occurred before Gerhard was born), in its Canon IV on baptism stated that “baptism which is even given by heretics in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, with the intention of doing what the Church doth, is . . . true baptism” and even anathematizes those who would deny this. It inexorably follows that Protestants are fellow Christians in the Body of Christ. Contrary to a widespread myth, these notions were not invented in Vatican II in the 1960s. They are actually rooted in St. Augustine, who argued that Donatist baptisms were valid.

The Catholic Church has always taught that baptism regenerates; brings about the new birth (Council of Florence, 1439: “Through baptism . . . we are reborn spiritually”: Denzinger 1311; cf. 239). Trent itself  in a different section (Decree on the Sacrament of Penance, ch. 2: Denz. 1671-1672, plainly states, by logical deduction (by the nature of baptism), that Protestants are fellow Christians in the Body of Christ:

The Church exercises judgment on no one who has not entered therein through the gate of baptism. . . . It is otherwise with those who are of the household of the faith, whom Christ our Lord has once, by the laver of baptism, made the members of His own body . . . For, by baptism putting on Christ, we are made therein entirely a new creature, obtaining a full and entire remission of all sins . . .  baptism itself is for those who have not as yet been regenerated.

So, going back to Gerhard’s argument, Protestants are regarded as fellow Christians by Catholics because of baptism. We agree with Lutherans and some other Protestants, too, that baptism brings about spiritual regeneration and ushers one into the kingdom of God, in a state of good graces and initial total forgiveness of sins. Agreeing on this is highly significant, but it doesn’t follow that we deny that Lutherans are heretical in several other particular areas. Gerhard offers a false a vs. b choice of how to classify Lutherans from a Catholic perspective. The anathemas of Trent are complex as well, and do not sweepingly condemn all Protestants, let alone Lutherans. Even Pope Benedict XVI, when he was a theologian before becoming pope, confirmed that.

Bellarmine, in lib.3. on the Word of God chapter 1, argues among other things that the obscurity of Scripture is proved.

I’m sure he wasn’t contending that all Scripture is utterly obscure, but rather, that parts of it are obscure enough to require an authoritative interpreter, in order to bring about doctrinal unity. Protestants lack that very thing, and claim that Scripture is perspicuous (clear) enough for any layperson to understand it. Bellarmine had good solid scriptural grounds to argue in that way. When Ezra read “the book of the law of Moses which the LORD had given to Israel” to the people (Neh 8:1), note that reading / hearing alone wasn’t sufficient. Levites “helped the people to understand the law, . . . and they gave the sense, so that the people understood the reading” (8:7-8).

St. Peter described St. Paul’s letters as follows: “There are some things in them hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures” (2 Pet 3:16). And he stated, “no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation” (2 Pet 1:20). St. Philip heard the Ethiopian eunuch “reading Isaiah the prophet, and asked, ‘Do you understand what you are reading?’ And he said, ‘How can I, unless some one guides me?’ ” (Acts 8:30-31). The risen Jesus’ encounter with the two men on the road to Emmaus is also very instructive in this regard:

Luke 24:25-27, 32, 45 And he said to them, “O foolish men, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken! [26] Was it not necessary that the Christ should suffer these things and enter into his glory?” [27] And beginning with Moses and all the prophets, he interpreted to them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself. . . . [32] They said to each other, “Did not our hearts burn within us while he talked to us on the road, while he opened to us the scriptures?” . . . [45] Then he opened their minds to understand the scriptures,

St. Paul noted how learning the Scripture and the Christian faith itself properly takes time; it’s not a simple process: “I fed you with milk, not solid food; for you were not ready for it; and even yet you are not ready” (1 Cor 3:2). The writer of Hebrews reiterates the same point:

Hebrews 5:11-14 About this we have much to say which is hard to explain, since you have become dull of hearing. [12] For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need some one to teach you again the first principles of God’s word. You need milk, not solid food; [13] for every one who lives on milk is unskilled in the word of righteousness, for he is a child. [14] But solid food is for the mature, for those who have their faculties trained by practice to distinguish good from evil.

St. Paul warns about people who are “burdened with sins and swayed by various impulses, who will listen to anybody and can never arrive at a knowledge of the truth” (2 Tim 3:6-7) and those who “will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own likings, and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander into myths” (2 Tim 4:3-4).

Jesus also warned about the potential dangers of following one’s own inclinations in theological matters, rather than true spiritual leaders in the Church: “many false prophets will arise and lead many astray” (Mt 24:11); “if any one says to you, ‘Lo, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. [24] For false Christs and false prophets will arise and show great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect” (24:23-24). Jesus even rebuked Nicodemus, a Pharisee sympathetic to Him, who would have been a teacher, in the matter of baptismal regeneration: “Are you a teacher of Israel, and yet you do not understand this?” (Jn 3:10).

This is why we need the Church to guide us. The Bible is clear that it’s not always clear just by reading it. If we try to do it on our own, much error will be present in too many people, and that’s exactly what we observe in Protestantism, where innumerable internal contradictions mean that either both or one of the parties who disagree with and contradict each other in any given instance are believing in falsehood. And that’s not good. It’s the devil who is the father of lies and all false doctrine. Erasmus, the great Catholic scholar, in opposing Martin Luther in 1526, wrote brilliantly about the shortcomings of perspicuity:

And then, as for what you say about the clarity of Scripture, would that it were absolutely true! But those who laboured mightily to explain it for many centuries in the past were of quite another opinion. (p. 129 of Hyperaspistes)

But if knowledge of grammar alone removes all obscurity from Sacred Scripture, how did it happen that St. Jerome, who knew all the languages, was so often at a loss and had to labour mightily to explain the prophets? Not to mention some others, among whom we find even Augustine, in whom you place some stock. Why is it that you yourself, who cannot use ignorance of languages as an excuse, are sometimes at a loss in explicating the psalms, testifying that you are following something you have dreamed up in your own mind, without condemning the opinions of others? . . . Finally, why do your ‘brothers’ disagree so much with one another? They all have the same Scripture, they all claim the same spirit. And yet Karlstadt disagrees with you violently. So do Zwingli and Oecolampadius and Capito, who approve of Karlstadt’s opinion though not of his reasons for it. Then again Zwingli and Balthazar are miles apart on many points. To say nothing of images, which are rejected by others, but defended by you, not to mention the rebaptism rejected by your followers but preached by others, and passing over in silence the fact that secular studies are condemned by others but defended by you. Since you are all treating the subject matter of Scripture, if there is no obscurity in it, why is there so much disagreement among you? (pp. 130-131)

Nor did I say that some places in Scripture offer difficulties in order to deter anyone from reading it, but rather to encourage readers to study it acutely and to discourage the inexperienced from making snap judgments. (p. 135)

But still, if I were growing weary of this church, as I wavered in perplexity, tell me, I beg you in the name of the gospel, where would you have me go? To that disintegrated congregation of yours, that totally dissected sect? Karlstadt has raged against you, and you in turn against him. And the dispute was not simply a tempest in a teapot but concerned a very serious matter. Zwingli and Oecolampadius have opposed your opinion in many volumes. And some of the leaders of your congregation agree with them, among whom is Capito. Then too what an all-out battles was fought by Balthazar and Zwingli! I am not even sure that there in that tiny little town you agree among yourselves very well. Here your disciples openly taught that the humanities are the bane of godliness, and no languages are to be learned except a bit of Greek and Hebrew, that Latin should be entirely ignored. There were those who would eliminate baptism and those who would repeat it; and there was no lack of those who persecute them for it. In some places images of the saints suffered a dire fate; you came to their rescue. When you book about reforming education was published, they said that the spirit had left you and that you were beginning to write in a human spirit opposed to the gospel, and they maintained you did it to please Melanchthon. A tribe of prophets has risen up there with whom you have engaged in most bitter conflict. Finally, just as every day new dogmas appear among you, so at the same time new quarrels arise. And you demand that no one should disagree with you, although you disagree so much among yourselves about matters of the greatest importance! (pp. 143-144)

You quarrel so much among yourselves, each of you claiming all the while to have the Spirit of Christ and a completely certain knowledge of Holy Scripture, how can you still . . . be outraged that an old man like me who knows nothing of theology should prefer to follow the authoritative consensus of the church rather than to join you, who dissent no less from the church than you dissent from each other? (p. 144)

You offend precisely in that you continually foist off on us your interpretation as the word of God . . . in interpreting Scripture I prefer to follow the judgment of the many orthodox teachers and of the church rather than that of you alone or of your few sworn followers . . . (pp. 180-181)

And so away with this ‘word of God, word of God.’ I am not waging war against the word of God but against your assertion; nor is the word of God inconsistent with itself but rather human interpretations collide with one another. If you are influenced by the judgment of the church, what you assert is human fabrication, what you fight against is the word of God. (p. 181)

I am not making the passages obscure, but rather God himself wanted there to be some obscurity in them, but in such a way that there would be enough light for the eternal salvation of everyone if he used his eyes and grace was there to help. No one denies that there is truth as clear as crystal in Holy Scripture, but sometimes it is wrapped and covered up by figures and enigmas so that it needs scrutiny and an interpreter. (pp. 219-220)

You say this as if I said that all Scripture is obscure and ambiguous, though I confess that it contains a treasure of eternal and most certain truth, but in some places the treasure is concealed and not open to just anybody, no matter who. (p. 223)

For which of them [the Church Fathers], in explaining the mysteries in these volumes, does not complain about the obscurity of Scripture? Not because they blame Scripture, as you falsely charge, but because they deplore the dullness of the human mind, not because they despair but because they implore grace from him who alone closes and opens to whomever he wishes, when he wishes, and as much as he wishes. (pp. 244-245)

Bernard . . . rejected . . . the merits of works . . . 

Not at all. He taught precisely that which the Catholic Church teaches about merit (“both/and”), in harmony with 50 Bible passages: all the grace that alone and necessarily brings about good works comes from God, Who works with the person, who in turn cooperates with God; then God crowns His own gifts, in regarding the resultant voluntary good works as meritorious (as Augustine said). This is what the Catholic Church has always taught.

Hence, Trent, in its Decree on Justification, chapter 16, stated, “Jesus Christ Himself continually infuses his virtue into the said justified, — as the head into the members, and the vine into the branches, — and this virtue always precedes and accompanies and follows their good works, which without it could not in any wise be pleasing and meritorious before God . . .” (Denz. 1546). St. Bernard of Clairvaux [1090-1153] agrees:

If both the words and the works are not Paul’s, but God’s, Who speaketh in Paul or worketh through Paul; wherefore, in such case, are the merits Paul’s? Wherefore is it that he so confidently affirmed: “I have fought the good fight, I have finished the course, I have kept the faith: henceforth there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give to me at that day”? Was it, perchance, that he was assured that the crown was laid up for him, because it was through him that those deeds were done?

But many good things are done by means of the wicked, whether angels or men; yet they are not reckoned unto them as meritorious. Or was it rather because they were done with him, that is to say, with his good will? “For,” saith he, “if I preach the gospel unwillingly, a stewardship hath been entrusted to me, but if willingly, I have whereof to glory.”

Moreover, if not so much as the very will, on which dependeth all merit, is from Paul himself; on what ground doth he speak of the crown, which he believeth to be laid up for him, as a crown of righteousness? Is it because whatsoever is even freely promised is yet asked for justly and as a matter of due? Finally he saith: “I know Whom I have believed, and I am persuaded that He is able to keep that which I have intrusted unto Him.” The promise of God he calls his deposit; and because he believed Him that promised, he asketh for the fulfilment of the promise. What was indeed promised in mercy is yet due in justice. Thus it is a crown of righteousness that Paul expecteth; but of God’s righteousness; not of his own. It is forsooth just that God should pay what He oweth; but it is what He hath promised that He oweth.

This then is the righteousness upon which the Apostle presumeth, namely, God’s fulfilment of His promise; lest, if, disdaining this righteousness, he would establish his own, he be not subject to the righteousness of God; when it was all the while God’s will that he should be partaker of His righteousness, in order that He might also make him meritorious of a crown. For He constituted him partaker of His righteousness, and meritorious of a crown, when He deigned to take him as His fellow-worker in the works as a reward for which the crown of righteousness was laid up. Further He made him His fellow-worker, when He made him His willing worker, that is to say, consentient with His will. Accordingly the will is held to be God’s aid; the aid it gives is held to be meritorious. If then, in such a case, the will is from God, so also is the merit. Nor is there any doubt but that both to will, and to perform according to the good will, are from God. God therefore is the author of merit, who both applieth the will to the work, and supplieth to the will the fulfilment of the work. (Concerning Grace And Free Will, chap. 14)

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Photo credit: Johann Gerhard (1582-1637) [public domain / Internet Archive Open Library: Confessio Catholica]

Summary: First of two replies to the “Confessio” of Lutheran theologian Johann Gerhard (1582-1637), in which he sought to confirm Lutheran doctrines by various Catholic statements.

2025-07-05T10:13:30-04:00

Photo credit: cover of my 2013 book (self-published).

 

Bible Proofs for Catholic Truths [over 2,000 biblical passages] [book, August 2009]

Catholic Salvation: 1871 Bible Passages [12-27-24]

Revelation! 1001 Bible Answers to Theological Topics [book: October 2013]

601+ Bible Passages Disprove Sola Scriptura (Featuring an Emphasis on the Scriptural Data Regarding the Strong Influence of Jewish Tradition in Early Christianity) [1-6-25]

Bible on the Nature of Saving Faith (Including Assent, Trust, Hope, Works, Obedience, and Sanctification) [380 passages] [1-21-10]

Jesus is God: Hundreds of Biblical Proofs (300 Biblical Proofs + Many Additional Related Cross-References) (RSV edition) [1982; rev. 2012 and 11-26-24]

150 Reasons Why I Became (and Remain) a Catholic (Featuring 300 Biblical Evidences Favoring Catholicism) [1992; revised 9-28-05]

Holy Trinity: Hundreds of Biblical Proofs (RSV edition) [1982; rev. 2012]

Reply to Lucas Banzoli’s 205 Potshots at St. Peter (4 Parts) [5-30-22]

Banzoli’s 45 “Faith Alone” Passages; My 200 Biblical Disproofs [6-16-22]

Inspired!: 198 Supposed Biblical Contradictions Resolved [book: June 2023]

Refutation of 194 Biblical “Contradictions” (8 Parts) [4-11-22]

Falling Away (Apostasy): 150 Biblical Passages (+ Catalogue of Sixty Traits That Apostates Formerly Possessed When They Were in God’s Good Graces) [11-19-24]

Transformation of Believers in the NT: 150 Passages (Regeneration is Only the Beginning . . .) [12-16-24]

St. Augustine: Thoroughly Catholic: 135 Proofs [8-30-12]

Christmas Carols and Songs: An Alphabetical, Chronological, and Geographical Catalogue [135 carols] [December 2005]

Eternal Hell: 125 Biblical Evidences [12-2-24]

The Holy Spirit is a Person: 125 Bible Passages [12-26-24]

Christians or Theists Founded 115 Scientific Fields [8-20-10]

Purgatory: 110 Related Biblical Themes [10-31-24]

Minor Prophets: Their Theology of Salvation [107 passages] [8-2-23]

100 Biblical Arguments Against Sola Scriptura [book: Nov. 2011]

Bible vs. “Faith Alone”: 100 Proofs (100 Bible Passages On Catholic Justification, Sanctification, and Faith + Works [from 22 out of 27 NT Books]: All Disproving Protestant “Faith Alone” Soteriology) [10-8-24]

Doctrinal Development: 80 Bible Passages [12-10-24]

Salvation Caused by Actions: 80 Bible Passages (. . . Proving That “Faith Alone” is a False Doctrine) [10-5-24]

Faith Alone? 80 Bible Verses Say Otherwise [National Catholic Register, 10-31-24]

Salvation as a Process: 75 NT Passages [11-16-24]

Scripture on Being Co-Workers with God for Salvation [72 passages] [2013]

67 Possible NT Deuterocanonical References in the Gospels [7-13-05]

60 Possible NT Deuterocanonical References (Philippians to Revelation) [8-10-05]

God’s “Fellow Workers” Help Spread Salvation & Grace (We “Impart Grace”, “Save” Others, Win Souls, Help Them “Obtain Salvation”, Etc., In Our “Work of the Lord”) [55 passages] [10-29-21]

Refutation of Atheist Paul Carlson’s 51 Bible “Contradictions” [4-6-21]

Final Judgment & Works (Not Faith): 50 Passages [2-10-08]

Meritorious Works: 50 Biblical Proofs [10-4-24]

Bible on Faith / Belief, etc. “Alone” [?] for Salvation (Fifty Bible Passages Stress Faith or Belief, Regarding the Question of Salvation, Compared to a Hundred that Emphasize or Highlight Works) [10-11-24]

Jesus Had No Siblings: 50 Biblical Arguments [7-1-25]

St. Paul on Grace, Faith, & Works (50 Passages) [8-6-08]

50 New Testament Proofs for Peter’s Primacy & the Papacy [1994]

Reply to Critique of “50 NT Proofs for the Papacy” [3-14-02]

50 Biblical Indications of Petrine Primacy and the Papacy [National Catholic Register, 11-20-16]

Jason Engwer, Trent Horn, & My 50 NT Petrine Proofs [7-28-22]

Honoring Jesus Thru Mary: 50 Biblical Reasons [4-21-15]

50 Biblical Reasons to Honor Jesus Through Mary [National Catholic Register, 7-24-19]

50 Bible Passages on Purgatory & Analogous Processes [2009]

50 Biblical Indications That Purgatory is Real [National Catholic Register, 10-24-16]

50 OT Messianic Prophecies Fulfilled by Jesus [initial research from 1982; slightly revised in 1997; revised and reformatted for RSV edition in 2012; separated from the larger article on 11-26-24]

50 Ways In Which Luther Had Departed From Catholic Orthodoxy by 1520 (and Why He Was Excommunicated) [3-29-06]

50 Reasons Why Martin Luther Was Excommunicated [National Catholic Register, 11-23-16]

50 “Catholic” John Calvin Views [3-18-10]

50 Biblical Proofs That Jesus is God [National Catholic Register, 2-12-17]

50 Biblical Evidences for the Holy Trinity [National Catholic Register, 11-14-16]

Moses Wrote the Torah: 50 External Evidences [12-14-22]

Evangelist Luke & Archaeology & History (50 Separate Extrabiblical Verifications of Luke’s Historical Accuracy) [2-4-22]

Reply to Seidensticker’s 50 “2-Minute” Anti-Christian Arguments [12-15-22]

Isaiah’s Catholic & UnProtestant Soteriology [45 passages] [8-1-23]

Jeremiah’s Catholic & Very UnProtestant Soteriology [44 passages] [7-31-23]

44 Possible NT Deuterocanonical References (Acts to Ephesians) [7-27-05]

“Blameless” & “Pure” in the Bible (Sinless?): 40 Passages [12-12-24]

Works & Sanctification Partly Cause Salvation: 34 Passages [1-30-25]

33 Empiricist Christian Thinkers Before 1000 AD [8-5-10]

Limited Atonement Biblical Arguments Refuted (33 NT Passages Against Limited Atonement and in Favor of Universal Atonement) [11-21-24]

Bible On Mortal & Venial Sin (vs. Anglican Stearns #5) [31 passages] [3-20-25]

Church Fathers vs. “Faith Alone”: Handy Capsule Proofs [30 Church Fathers] [4-9-24]

Apostolic Tradition: 28 Passages in Paul’s Epistles (Including Incisive Commentary from the Anglican Tractarian John Keble: 1792-1866) [1-29-25]

Pearce’s Potshots #11: 28 Defenses of Jesus’ Nativity (Featuring Confirmatory Historical Tidbits About the Magi and Herod the Great) [1-9-21]

The Deuterocanon: 27-Point Catholic Summary [3-19-02]

Salvation and Eternal Afterlife in the Old Testament [26 passages] [8-31-19]

25 Bible Passages on Purgatory [1996]

25 Descriptive and Clear Bible Passages About Purgatory [National Catholic Register, 5-7-17]

The “Catholic-Sounding” Luther: 25 Examples [6-16-08]

25 Arguments Regarding Binding Church Authority [1-13-09]

25 Brief Arguments for Binding Catholic Tradition [2009]

25 Brief Arguments Regarding Biblical “Clearness” [2009]

25 Brief Arguments on the Biblical Canon & Protestantism [2009]

OT & Archaeology: 25 Fascinating Confirmations [9-21-21]

Pearce Pablum #72: Flood: 25 Criticisms & Non Sequiturs [3-8-22]

The Sacrifice of the Mass in Hebrews & Revelation [25 passages] [3-6-25]

24 Biblical Passages on Meritorious Works [National Catholic Register, 9-30-24]

23 Catholic Medieval Proto-Scientists: 12th-13th Centuries [2010]

22 Reminders That St. Augustine Was 100% Catholic [National Catholic Register, 4-23-20]

Salvation and Justification in the Gospels and Acts [21 passages] [1996]

Invocation of Saints: 20 Biblical Proofs [1-15-24]

Top 20 Biblical Proofs of the Papacy [12-12-15]

Top 20 Biblical Evidences for the Primacy of St. Peter [National Catholic Register, 1-8-18]

Defending 20 Biblical Proofs for the Papacy (vs. Lucas Banzoli) (two parts) [2-13-23]

Star of Bethlehem & Magi: 20 Fascinating Aspects [1-22-21]

St. Paul’s Use of the Term “Gift” & Infused Justification [19 passages] [2013]

Salvation: By Grace Alone, Not Faith Alone or Works [19 passages] [2013]

Gospel of John & Archaeology & History (17 Extrabiblical Verifications of the Gospel of John’s Historical Accuracy) [2-8-22]

Worshiping God Through Images (vs. Anglican Stearns #4): Including the Biblical Case for Icons  [17 passages] [3-20-25]

16 Church Fathers vs. Faith Alone [National Catholic Register, 4-23-24]

15 Theistic Arguments (Copious Resources) [11-3-15]

15 Times Martin Luther Sounded Surprisingly Catholic When Talking About Suffering [National Catholic Register, 2-25-21]

Top 15 “Catholic” Beliefs of John Calvin [8-22-15]

Defending John Calvin’s “Top 15 ‘Catholic’ Beliefs” [9-2-15]

John Calvin’s 15 Surprisingly Catholic Views [National Catholic Register, 10-10-17]

15 Archaeological Proofs of Old Testament Accuracy (National Catholic Register, short summary points from my book, The Word Set in Stone) [3-23-23]

15 Archaeological Proofs of New Testament Accuracy (National Catholic Register, short summary points from my book, The Word Set in Stone) [3-30-23]

Perfectly Keeping the Law: 15 Bible Passages [12-12-24]

Biblical Evidence: Personal Relationship with Jesus [14 passages] [2013; expanded on 1-18-19]

14 More Church Fathers vs. Faith Alone [National Catholic Register, 4-30-24]

James White’s Top Ten Questions for “Romanist” Converts Answered [9-4-07]

Top Ten Remarkable “Catholic” Beliefs of Martin Luther [1-19-15]

10 Remarkably “Catholic” Beliefs of Martin Luther [National Catholic Register, 10-6-17]

Martin Luther’s Ten Important “Catholic” Views [2-2-25]

John Calvin’s Ten Striking “Catholic” Views [2-11-25]

Critique of Ten Exaggerated Claims of the “Reformation” [10-31-17]

Archaeology & Ten (More) Kings of Judah & Israel [4-20-23]

Ten Church Fathers & Sola Scriptura: Reply to anti-Catholic Protestant apologist Jason Engwer’s Catholic But Not Roman Catholic Series on the Church Fathers [8-1-03]

Quick Ten-Step Refutation of Sola Scriptura [10-10-03]

10-Point Biblical Refutation of Sola Scriptura [National Catholic Register, 12-11-16]

Nutshell Biblical Intercession of the Saints & Angels [10 Points] [2-3-24]

9 Ways Jesus Tells Us He is God in the Synoptic Gospels [National Catholic Register, 10-28-20]

Svendsen’s Dissertation on Mary: 2. “Brothers” of Jesus (Including a Handy, Nine-Point Summary of Solid Exegetical Arguments for the “Cousins” Theory of Jesus’ “Brothers”) [2-2-23]

Patristic Eucharistic Doctrine: Nine Protestant Scholars [12-1-96]

Did St. Augustine Accept All Seven Sacraments? [National Catholic Register, 11-15-17]

St. Augustine Accepted All Seven Catholic Sacraments [9-25-10]

7 Takes on Satan’s Persecutions and the Balanced Christian Life [National Catholic Register, 11-24-18]

Papal Participation in the First Seven Ecumenical Councils [4-22-09]

Seven Replies Re Interceding Saints (vs. Lucas Banzoli) [5-25-22]

Veneration of Human Beings: Seven Biblical Examples (Apostles Paul and Silas, Kings David and Saul, Prophets Daniel and Samuel, Patriarch Joseph) [3-4-19]

Prayers to Saints & for the Dead: Six Biblical Proofs [6-8-18]

My First Six Christmas Poems [1996-2003]

5 Replies to Questions About Catholic (and Biblical) Prayer [National Catholic Register, 11-30-22]

CARM Forum Wrong About Biblical Prayer to Creatures (Five Biblical Examples Provided) [11-21-24]

Archaeology Confirms Dates of Five Biblical Battles: Battles at Beth She’an (c. 926 BC), Beth Shemesh (c. 790 BC), Bethsaida & Kinneret (732 BC), and Lachish (701 BC) [2-6-23]

4 Biblical Proofs for Prayers to Saints and for the Dead [National Catholic Register, 6-16-18]

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Practical Matters:  I run the most comprehensive “one-stop” Catholic apologetics site: rated #1 for Christian sites by leading AI tool, ChatGPT — endorsed by popular Protestant blogger Adrian Warnock. Perhaps some of my 5,000+ free online articles or fifty-six books have helped you (by God’s grace) to decide to become Catholic or to return to the Church, or better understand some doctrines and why we believe them. If you believe my full-time apostolate is worth supporting, please seriously consider a much-needed monthly or one-time financial contribution. “The laborer is worthy of his wages” (1 Tim 5:18, NKJV).
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Photo credit: cover of my 2013 book (self-published) [see book and purchase information].

Summary: Compilation of my own articles that feature a large number of arguments (e.g., “Bible vs. ‘Faith Alone’: 100 Proofs”), including also a few books and one bestselling pamphlet.

Updated on 5 July 2025

2024-10-26T23:47:29-04:00

Including Proof That Jesus Wasn’t Totally Silent During His Trial; That is, He Didn’t “Turn the Other Cheek”

Photo credit: Adolf Harnack (1851-1930): Project Gutenberg eText 13635 – http://www.gutenberg.net/dirs/1/3/6/3/13635/13635-h/13635-h.htm; User Tagishsimon on en.wikipedia [public domain / Wikimedia Commons]

On 24 October 2024, The Amateur Exegete website (its title a great irony in light of this article), published, “Adolf von Harnack: Apologetics Is in a Deplorable State”. Words of the first anonymous commenter will be in green; words of webmaster “Ben” (aka “The Amateur Exegete”) will be in blue. I have made a few very slight changes to the original comments I made on his site.

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The article consists solely of a citation:

Adolf von Harnack, What is Christianity? translated by Thomas Bailey Saunders (Fortress Press, 1986 [originally published in 1957]), 7-8

Harnack (1851-1930) was a German Lutheran theologian. And here is the entire article, taken from his book, published in 1900:

Apologetics holds a necessary place in religious knowledge, and to demonstrate the validity of the Christian religion and exhibit its importance for the moral and intellectual life is a great and a worthy undertaking. But this undertaking must be kept quite separate from the purely historical question as to the nature of that religion, or else historical research will be brought into complete discredit. Moreover, in the kind of apologetics that is now required no really high standard has yet been attained. Apart from a few steps that have been taken in the direction of improvement, apologetics as a subject of study is in a deplorable state: it is not clear as to the positions to be defended, and it is uncertain as to the means to be employed. It is also not infrequently pursued in an undignified and obtrusive fashion. Apologists imagine that they are doing a great work by crying up religion as though it were a job-lot at a sale, or a universal remedy for all social ills. They are perpetually snatching, too, at all sorts of baubles, so as to deck out religion in fine clothes. In their endeavour to present it as a glorious necessity, they deprive it of its earnest character, and at the best only prove that it is something which may be safely accepted because it can do no harm. Finally, they cannot refrain from slipping in some church programme of yesterday and “demonstrating” its claims as well. The structure of their ideas is so loose that an idea or two makes no difference. The mischief that has been thereby done already and is still being done is indescribable.

This is the usual nauseating, condescending, academic snob drivel along the lines of, “apologetics is so wonderful and necessary, but unfortunately not a single apologist can be found who does it well: especially not those pretentious amateurs — whom we never name — who are abominably stupid, unlike us academics!” He doesn’t give any specific examples, so one can’t rationally respond to it. Maybe in the book he does, but if so, one would never know that from this excerpt.

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Then the first comment from “Anonymous” (as always!) continued the tired, vapid, virtually content-less polemics against apologetics and apologists, with the extra bonus of a gratuitous swipe at yours truly:

A hit, a very palpable hit. If von Harnick thought things were bad in 1901, I can’t imagine what he’d make of the apologetics enterprise in 2024. (The subtext of your post, I imagine.) There are reasons apologists cite the works of various historians, archaeologists, and linguists, while historians, archaeologists, and linguists don’t cite apologetics.

I’m reminded of the frequent disconnect between the believing scholars who’ve rigorously studied Greek, Hebrew, ANE history, etc. and many conservative apologists who have not. The discomfort of certain Catholic apologists with mainstream critical biblical scholarship is a recurring example. The commentary and notes in the NAB/NABRE–currently the sole English translation available on the Vatican website, and prepared by prominent experts under USCCB leadership–incorporate a broad version of the Documentary Hypothesis, acknowledge the complicated composition of Isaiah, date Daniel to the Hellenistic period, etc. (Same with The Jerome Biblical Commentary, the most recent edition of which includes an introduction from Pope Francis himself.)

But then look at content from Catholic Answers, SJ Thomason, Dave Armstrong, and other like-minded folks. They tend to be conspicuously quiet about the commentary in the NAB/NABRE, and seem to argue that mainstream critical scholarship is suspect at best, modernist malarkey at worst. So if I were a new Catholic, where should I turn for The Most Correct Information? To the NAB/NABRE prepared by scholars under Church auspices in alignment with the magisterium, or to lay Catholic apologists? Von Harnick’s observation, “it is not clear as to the positions to be defended,” is especially on point here, by my reckoning.

And this is how I responded:

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Care to make specific criticisms of my work rather than the broad swipe (since you brought up my name)? That’s only fair, isn’t it? Let a man defend himself? Scholarship is a mixed bag. There is heterodox stuff and there is very orthodox stuff. The popes are scholarly and orthodox, and I have been known as a vigorous defender of the three popes who have been in office since my conversion in 1990. Pope Francis is considered a “liberal” by many but he isn’t, as I have shown again and again.

For some reason, people are always pitting lay apologetics and academic scholarship against each other, as if they are antithetical or competing with each other. I have never pretended to be a scholar. I cite them all the time, as one who strives to be a serious semi-scholarly thinker.

As I always point out, Chesterton never obtained any degree at all. Most of his college courses that he did take were art classes. Yet Thomist scholars have regarded his book on St. Thomas Aquinas as virtually the equal of any other. Those scholars certainly cited an apologist, didn’t they? There are many good lay apologists and a great many also who never had formal theological education (C. S. Lewis, Peter Kreeft, Malcolm Muggeridge, Thomas Howard, Frank Sheed, ad nauseam). C. S. Lewis is massively cited by scholars of many types, both in theology and philosophy. He was trained as an English scholar.

The Catholic Church has always encouraged lay apologetics, as I have documented. It’s not a requirement of catechetics, evangelism, or apologetics, to have a degree in theology. It helps, of course, but those enterprises are larger than that. The attempted false dichotomy is boorish and silly.

My work has received three Imprimaturs. Funny you bring up the NAB, too. Our Sunday Visitor, the largest Catholic publisher, published The Catholic Answer Bible in 2002, with an NAB text and my 44 short apologetics articles (my notes received the Imprimatur from James P. Kelleher, S.T.D., Archbishop of Kansas City and the Nihil Obstat from Gary Applegate, J.C.L.). It was revised in 2005 as The New Catholic Answer Bible, with additional work from Dr. Paul Thigpen; this time with an Imprimatur from J. Kevin Boland, D.D., bishop of Savannah, and Nihil Obstat from Douglas K. Clark, S.T.L.).

Is that “kosher” enough for ya? So there I am working with an academic, with my work overseen and confirmed as orthodox and helpful to educate, by bishops and other Catholic scholars. Pretty hard to do your false dichotomy there, isn’t it? I’m currently also partnering on YouTube with Kenny Burchard, who has a Master’s Degree in NT.

I am very good friends with and often ask theological advice from Dr. Robert Fastiggi, who is a professor of theology at Sacred Heart Seminary in Detroit and editor and translator of the latest version of Denzinger’s Enchiridion symbolorum (Ignatius, 2012): the premier scholarly source for Catholic dogma and magisterial pronouncements. He loves my work: has said so innumerable times. My first book, A Biblical Defense of Catholicism (1996) received a glowing endorsement in the Foreword by Fr. John A. Hardon, SJ: one of the foremost catechists in the world. Was he wrong to do that because I wasn’t a scholar? Dr. Scott Hahn wrote the Foreword to my book, More Biblical Evidence for Catholicism (2002). Did I have him fooled, too?

My latest “officially published” book is The Word Set in Stone: How Archaeology, Science, and History Back Up the Bible (Catholic Answers Press: 2023). In it, I massively cite scholars (mostly archaeologists and historians): 393 footnotes. I think it’s a good book. You would have to judge that for yourself. I’ll send you a free PDF copy if you like. At least read a serious piece of apologetics from me before you want to publicly blast me, and safely anonymous at that. Write to me at apologistdave [at] gmail [dot] com and I’ll send it along.

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“The Amateur Exegete” then started interacting:

I’m curious as to what the phrase “its title a great irony in light of this article” means as it pertains to my website. Is that also a swipe?

It was a pointed observation (perhaps a swipe, but a justified one). The irony as I saw it is a site called “The Amateur Exegete” running a very strongly worded section from Harnack excoriating amateur apologetics, as if those of us who do it ought to be ashamed, and as if no one in his environment was out there doing it well at all. I’m quite sure that there were respectable Lutheran apologists in his Germany of 1900, because Lutheranism is a respectable Protestant position and there’s no way that they wouldn’t have been there.

And if that is true, as I think it almost certainly is, then Harnack should have acknowledged them rather than issue this literally prejudicial, broad-brushed caricature of apologetics per se. He names neither the bad ones nor the good ones and documents nothing. It’s simply a poisoning of the well that should have been beneath him. Again, maybe in his book he did, but you decided to put up this excerpt: presumably because it fits into your own pet peeves.

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When you hit “About” at this website it provides Ben’s short bio:
My name is Ben but I go by the moniker the Amateur Exegete: “amateur” because I am by no means a scholar and “exegete” because my main interest lay in understanding the meaning and import of texts, particularly the biblical texts. Though I spent three years at the fundamentalist bastion Pensacola Christian College, I ultimately graduated with a Bachelor of Science degree from Williamson College. I’ve also done some work toward a graduate degree in apologetics from Luther Rice Seminary but please don’t hold that against me! My religious journey began in King James Only fundamentalism, evolved to Reformed evangelicalism, and is currently flourishing in the absence of religion altogether. One thing hasn’t changed: my love for and interest in the Bible.
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This website has a few goals: to counter poor takes on the Bible whether they are from believers or unbelievers, to promote sound scholarship by writing pieces full of citations to the work of credible scholars, and to educate people who are interested in the Bible but don’t know a lot about it. The Bible remains one of the most read but least understood works in the world. My hope is that my small, non-professional contribution to the discussion about it will make things clearer for those less familiar with it.
So he has no degree in theology, either (though he has some courses under his belt), has a radical fundamentalist background, and now his views are characterized by “the absence of religion altogether.” Yet he continues to feel that he is more qualified to discuss the Bible and apologetics — and educate folks on biblical teaching — than lay Christian apologists.
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Von Harnack doesn’t name names probably because the quotation in question comes from a lecture series he delivered at the end of the 19th century that was put into print in 1900. He very rarely names specific persons in the series. Additionally, he prefaces his comments about apologists by noting that to answer the question “What is Christianity?” he is more interested in answering it “in its historical sense” rather than spend time on “the view…taken by the apologist and the religious philosopher” (p. 6). He doesn’t denigrate apologetics (as you claim) but the methods and manners of contemporary apologists. Their approach he finds problematic, turning Christianity into something that it is not on his view.

He being dead yet speaks.

There is a reason that so much of what passes for apologetics is written not with skeptics in mind but with fellow Christians. It is an insularly task, designed to protect against doubt and loss of faith rather than convince those without faith of the cogency of the Christian message. And often its practitioners are less than scrupulous with their propaganda, either not reading well, not reading enough, or, as I’ve seen especially in social media spaces, not reading at all. Additionally, the manner of so many of these apologists is sufficient reason to disbelieve their message. In my many encounters with Thomists and Reformed apologists, it is clear that there is nothing transformative about their gospel such that I should believe it. What good is being “right” if it turns you into a spiteful, miserable soul?

I’m obviously not claiming all apologists are like this. I do find it interesting that you felt the need to comment on the post after your name had been mentioned. How did you discover it? Do you frequently search for your own name on the Internet? Do you feel it necessary to respond to every perceived slight? And what about taking a swipe at me makes you think that I’m going to find your particular approach to apologetics convincing? From my point of view as a mere amateur, it seems that you value being “right” more than you value promoting Christ, the one who “[w]hen he was abused, he did not return abuse” (1 Peter 2:23).

You are free to defend yourself and your views; I have no problem with that. But I’ve always found it curious that so many Christians, when they feel wronged, feel it necessary to lash out. I suppose it is because they do not have the faith to trust “the one who judges justly” to handle it. And at least on that we are in complete agreement.

You make the same mistake again: you start going after me, without actually dealing with anything I have written, just as Harnack did with apologetics and apologists. This is pure content-less bigotry. If one wishes to make some point about the futility of apologetics or the utter inability to find an apologist who does anything worthwhile, then by all means, pick and name someone and actually interact with their arguments and/or perceived deficient methodology.

It’s very much like the spirit of demonization that goes on in politics. “Republicans are racist, sexist homophobes.” “All Democrats are communists.” Etc. There is very little actual argumentation or dialogue or discussion across the party lines.

I defend myself not because I am so wounded or hurt; not at all! I couldn’t care less what strangers think of me, or my work: especially if they provide no cogent criticism. I do because it’s not me, personally that the commenter was attacking, so much as what I do; what I represent. I refuse to let what I love be besmirched and tarnished in such an illegitimate fashion: with prejudicial broad-brushing and no actual discussion occurring.

Yes, I do searches of my name and that’s how I found this. Why do I do it? Is it your theory: I’m full of myself and “value being ‘right’ more than you value promoting Christ”? Thanks for judging my soul and supposedly reading my heart. No! The reason is to defend what I love and have devoted my life and career to: defending Christianity and Catholic Christianity in particular. And I also have the old-fashioned, antiquated view that a person ought to have the opportunity to defend himself against unwarranted public attacks. Since I am rarely informed of such attacks, I have to find them myself. And then I respond, on the principle of fair play and the “right” of readers to actually hear both sides, rather than only one biased and negative outlook.

Do you agree with that principle? Well, you assert that you do: “You are free to defend yourself and your views; I have no problem with that.” Yet on the other hand, you don’t strike me as being enthralled by the fact that I actually did it.

You appear to have a view that I have encountered many times: the notion that the Bible and Jesus allegedly teach us to never respond to any attack (physical or verbal). It’s not true. “Turn the other cheek” is a typical piece of proverbial Hebrew practical wisdom. As a general rule, it’s a good policy. But it doesn’t follow that it must be done in every situation or that no one can ever defend himself. How do I know that? It’s because such responses are also displayed in the Bible. The biggest example is Paul defending himself vigorously at his trial. Even Jesus was not absolutely silent at His trial: as is the erroneous perception of many:

Matthew 26:62-64 (RSV) And the high priest stood up and said, “Have you no answer to make? What is it that these men testify against you?” [63] But Jesus was silent. And the high priest said to him, “I adjure you by the living God, tell us if you are the Christ, the Son of God.” [64] Jesus said to him, “You have said so. But I tell you, hereafter you will see the Son of man seated at the right hand of Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.” (in the parallel passage Mark 14:62, Jesus says, “I am . . .”)

Note how Jesus was silent in reply to the first question, but not the second. We see the same mixture in the next chapter:

Matthew 27:11-14 Now Jesus stood before the governor; and the governor asked him, “Are you the King of the Jews?” Jesus said, “You have said so.” [12] But when he was accused by the chief priests and elders, he made no answer. [13] Then Pilate said to him, “Do you not hear how many things they testify against you?” [14] But he gave him no answer, not even to a single charge; so that the governor wondered greatly.

In the Gospel of John, however, an extensive conversation between Pontius Pilate and Jesus is recorded, and also the fact that Jesus was sometimes — not always! — silent:

John 18:33-37 Pilate entered the praetorium again and called Jesus, and said to him, “Are you the King of the Jews?” [34] Jesus answered, “Do you say this of your own accord, or did others say it to you about me?” [35] Pilate answered, “Am I a Jew? Your own nation and the chief priests have handed you over to me; what have you done?” [36] Jesus answered, “My kingship is not of this world; if my kingship were of this world, my servants would fight, that I might not be handed over to the Jews; but my kingship is not from the world.” [37] Pilate said to him, “So you are a king?” Jesus answered, “You say that I am a king. For this I was born, and for this I have come into the world, to bear witness to the truth. Every one who is of the truth hears my voice.”

John 19:8-11 When Pilate heard these words, he was the more afraid; [9] he entered the praetorium again and said to Jesus, “Where are you from?” But Jesus gave no answer. [10] Pilate therefore said to him, “You will not speak to me? Do you not know that I have power to release you, and power to crucify you?” [11] Jesus answered him, “You would have no power over me unless it had been given you from above; therefore he who delivered me to you has the greater sin.”

So I defend myself because Jesus did so, too: for the sake of truth and the defense of what I believe to be right. Another model of this is St. John Henry Cardinal Newman: my theological hero. He wrote an entire book, called, Apologia pro vita sua, which was an elaborate defense of himself against various scurrilous lies that were directed his way in anti-Catholic Anglican England. The result was that he basically won over the country, and brought out the English sense of “fair play.” For a while, he was actually more popular among Anglicans than among Catholics.

You are quite correct that most apologetics is directed to, and most effective with those who are already Christian believers. There is nothing wrong with being more educated as to why one believes what one does as a Christian. The heart can’t reject what the mind deems to be false. We must have rational reasons to believe as we do, and not blind faith.

But there is also apologetics alongside evangelism: giving reasons for why we believe and trying to persuade nonbelievers. I do both. My latest book was about biblical archaeology, and was an effort to do both things at one time: give Christians more confidence and persuade agnostics and atheists of the profound, extraordinary  historical trustworthiness of the Bible: utilizing mostly secular archaeology and history to do so.

It literally came about when I spent over a year hanging out in an atheist venue (Jonathan M. S. Pearce). I’ve written hundreds of articles — and a book — responding to atheists who attack the Bible: mostly falsely claiming that it contradicts itself in every other sentence. Pearce counter-responded a few times: most never do. They simply insult and dismiss.

Why you have left the faith would be a long discussion. I’d be happy to have such a discussion, but it will never occur while you are lobbing attacks at me and what I do and foolishly trying to read my heart. So that’s up to you. “A man convinced against his will retains his original belief still.”

But you brought up all this stuff and I have answered, according to the command of 1 Peter 3:15: “Always be prepared to make a defense to any one who calls you to account for the hope that is in you” and Jude 3: “contend for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints.”

Thanks for allowing me to do so on your site!

One last question: you leave a little window for a few apologists actually doing that task well (“so much of what passes for apologetics . . . so many of these apologists . . . I’m obviously not claiming all apologists are like this”). Who would these people be? Can you actually name a few apologists whom you think do not fall under your broad criticisms and those of Harnack: respectable people with respectable views worth interacting with, rather than dismissing and insulting en masse?

Dave, I am utterly uninterested in engaging with you further. You accuse me of things I have not done and then take to your own website to further attack me. I wish you well.

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Photo credit: Adolf Harnack (1851-1930): Project Gutenberg eText 13635 – http://www.gutenberg.net/dirs/1/3/6/3/13635/13635-h/13635-h.htm; User Tagishsimon on en.wikipedia [public domain / Wikimedia Commons]

Summary: Lutheran theologian Adolf von Harnack (1851-1930) offered up the same tired anti-apologetics rhetoric that we see today; then a commenter futilely tried to apply it to me.

2024-08-17T14:31:57-04:00

Photo credit: dnet (1-11-08) [Wikimedia Commons / Creative CommonsAttribution-ShareAlike 3.0 License]

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Protestant Steve Gregg’s words will be in blue. See his online biography.

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This began with a thread on my Facebook page where I posted a meme. It read as follows (numbers added for the sake of reference):

Protestantism:

[1] Where everyone is a priest except priests,

[2] Where everyone can bind and loose except bishops,

[3] Where you can command angels but not ask their help,

[4] Where you can talk to the devil but not to saints,

[5] Where everyone gets a crown except the Virgin Mary,

[6] Where everyone can interpret Scripture except the Church,

[7] Where every Church is a Church except the Church.

Now, posting a meme doesn’t necessarily mean that one agrees with every particular of it. And this is clearly a proverbial-type of meme, that would allow many exceptions (just as passages in the Book of Proverbs do). Moreover, with Protestantism one has to generalize, since there are so many divisions, but these observations are either broadly true or true of some and sometimes many Protestants, or else I wouldn’t have posted it. There can always be partial exceptions in an individual as well. I will defend this as far as I agree with it and reply to objections that are in the thread. More on this aspect below . . .

All of a sudden this post has received 345 likes or dislikes, 95 comments, and 154 shares in a little less than 24 hours: far more than I usually get on my Facebook page. Readers can see the comments in their original contexts and format by consulting the post (linked at the top). I will be doing my usual back-and-forth (Plato / Socrates / Peter Kreeft) dialogue format. But I have cited all the words of my opponent. No “cynical / hostile” editing here!

I wrote to Steve Gregg on Facebook: “I, too, came out of a Jesus People / Movement background. In the early 80s I wanted to join Keith Green’s ministry, shortly before he was killed. I used to read Cornerstone Magazine, and visited there. I did street witnessing all through the 80s at U of M in Ann Arbor. Etc. I admire all of that. We have much in common because of it.”

I am neither Roman Catholic nor Eastern Orthodox. So I guess I would be called “Protestant”. I prefer the label “believer” or “disciple.” I do not fit your description:
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Yes, you are a species of Protestant. But I understand that many Protestants deem themselves beyond any traditional or conventional theological / denominational labels and call themselves — as you did — merely a “believer” or “disciple” [of Jesus]” or just “Christians.” That’s fine on a certain level, with limitations, but in any event, one must be aware of their own theological pedigree and traditions. No one is beyond this, whatever they claim. We’re all products of some sort of tradition or influence.
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In your biography you referred to many authors you have read. I am familiar with just about all of them. I know where you are coming from. It’s a form of Protestantism. I used to believe many of these same things as a non-denominational Baptist-type Arminian, with many Christian influences. Someone said that “everyone has a [theological] tradition; even if it is an unacknowledged one.”
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You yourself made reference to where your own belief-system came from, historically speaking, in writing in your biography: “I suppose the first new ideas that I developed, from my personal study of the scriptures, were what would best be termed ‘Anabaptist’ convictions.” That’s good. I once angered one of my old evangelical teachers (a converted Jew for whom I had immense respect), by asking him if he were in the Anabaptist tradition. He thought he was above all categories and traditions, which is folly and silliness.
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You, on the other hand, show that you are aware of at least some pedigree. The Anabaptists, of course, began shortly after Martin Luther posted his 95 Theses in 1517 and kicked off the Protestant Revolt. They’re considered to be Protestants who were part of “the radical reformation.” Both Luther and Calvin approved of executing them for heresy and sedition, as you may already know. It’s not just Catholics who killed others for believing what they thought was heresy.
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1) No, everyone is a priest whom Jesus and the apostles acknowledged to be priests;
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This part of the meme clearly refers to the Protestant emphasis on the universal priesthood of believers. That sense is scriptural, and we also believe it. But we differ in thinking that there is an additional specific class of clergy called priests, who preside over the Mass and watch over their flocks, as Protestant pastors do. In other words, there are two senses of “priest” in the Bible. I addressed this topic in my 2007 book, The One-Minute Apologist: Essential Catholic Replies to Over Sixty Common Protestant Claims (pp. 48-49; I use RSV for biblical citations):

The priesthood as we know it today is not a strong motif in the New Testament. But this can be explained in terms of development of doctrine: in the early days of Christianity some things were understood only in a very basic or skeletal sense. This is true even of certain doctrines accepted by all Christians, such as the Holy Trinity or original sin. The canon of biblical books took four centuries to be fully established. . . .

But one can indeed find evidence in the Bible of a Christian priesthood. Jesus entrusts to His disciples a remembrance of the central aspect of the liturgy or Mass (consecration of the bread and wine) at the Last Supper [(Lk. 22:19: “Do this in remembrance of me”]; Paul may also have presided over a Eucharist in Acts 20:11. These same disciples were models of a priestly life: wholly devoted to God, fulfilling a lifelong calling. Jesus had chosen and “appointed” them, and they had become His “friends” [Jn. 15:15-16]. He was their sole master [Mt. 6:24]. There was no turning back in their ministry [Lk. 9:62], and they were called to a radical commitment involving even leaving possessions and their entire families [Mt. 4:22; 19:27; Lk. 14:26]. The priest-disciple must accept hardships and privations and embrace self-denial [Mt. 8:19-20; 10:38; 16:24, etc.], and (if so called) celibacy, for the sake of undistracted devotion to the Lord [Mt. 19:12; 1 Cor. 7:7-9]. They served the Body of Christ [1 Cor. 3:5; 9:19; 2 Cor. 4:5], and dispensed sacraments [1 Cor. 4:1; Jas. 5:14; Mt. 28:19]. A universal priesthood of “offering” (sacrifice) extending to “every place” in New Testament times is prophesied in Isaiah 66:18, 21 and Malachi 1:11.

Protestants sometimes cite 1 Peter 2:5, 9 (cf. Rev. 1:6; 5:10; 20:6) to the effect that all Christians are priests; therefore there is no set-apart priestly ministry. But Peter was citing Exodus 19:6: “you shall be to me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.” This passage couldn’t possibly have meant that there was no priesthood among the ancient Hebrews, since in Leviticus they clearly had a separate class of priests. In fact, this same chapter twice contrasts the “priests” with the “people” [Ex. 19:21-24; cf. Josh. 3:6; 4:9].  Thus, it makes much more sense to interpret “priests” in 1 Peter 2:5 as meaning a chosen, specially holy people. This is fairly clear in context, in both parallel passages. The notion of “spiritual sacrifices” (faith, praise, giving to others) applies to all Christians [Phil. 2:17; Heb. 13:15-16].

The idea that all Christians are priests to the exclusion of a special class of clergy-priests is traceable to Martin Luther, not the Bible.
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2) Bishops are not singled out to be excluded from the activity of binding and loosing;
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The idea in the meme is that most Protestants don’t have bishops at all, despite their being cited as a Church office in the Bible (“bishop” appears four times in the NT in RSV). Technically (where I disagree with the meme), priests — not just bishops — bind and loose as well, in the course of confession, absolution, and penance. But most Protestants don’t have priests, either, so it makes little difference as to the overall point being made. Catholics believe that Jesus’ original disciples represented as a prototype, priests (or pastors, if one “Protestantizes” it).
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Hence, Jesus told Peter to “Feed my lambs” and “tend my sheep” and “feed my sheep” (Jn 21:15-17). And the Apostle Paul, speaking to “the elders of the church” (Acts 20:17), said, “Take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to care for the church of God” (Acts 20:28). Similarly, the Apostle Peter wrote: ” So I exhort the elders among you, as a fellow elder . . . Tend the flock of God that is your charge” (1 Pet 5:1-2).
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Now, one might ask what we mean by “binding and loosing.” International Standard Bible Dictionary (“Bind, Bound”) states:
In a figurative sense, to bind heavy and burdensome (extra) so-called religious duties on men (Mt 23:4). This figurative use of the word in Mt 16:19 and Mt 18:18 has given special interest to it. Necessarily certain powers for administration must be conferred on this company of men to carry out the purpose of Christ. That this power was not conferred on Peter alone is evident from the fact that in Mt 18:18 it is conferred on all the apostles. The use of the word in the New Testament is to declare a thing to be binding or obligatory (Joh 20:23).
New Bible Dictionary (“Binding and Loosing”) affirms that this means “the Church’s power to excommunicate and reconcile the sinner.” Eerdmans Bible Dictionary (“Binding and Loosing”) likewise defines it as “the authority to to determine the rules for doctrine and life . . .” These are all Protestant sources.
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3) Most Protestants do not believe in commanding angels. I don’t…nor does anyone I know;
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Again, it’s a proverbial-type meme. I agree with you that this particular item applies to only a small number of Protestants. Even you assumed that by using the word “most.” If “most” Protestants don’t believe this, then by the same token, “some” do! They exist. You mentioned Kenneth Hagen in your biography. His fellow “Word of Faith” minister Kenneth Copeland teaches this:

2. Command your angels

Can you really do this? In short, yes. Keep in mind, you aren’t commanding them in the same way you are commanding and rebuking the devil. You are releasing them to do the work they’ve been assigned to perform on your behalf.

You have been given the authority of Jesus Christ, as an heir, and you can command your angels to move on your behalf to carry out the Word (Psalm 103:20). Kenneth Copeland advises saying something like this: “In the Name of Jesus, ministering spirits, I assign you according to Hebrews 1:13-14 to see to it that I have protection in this car, in this airplane, in this building. I claim this right as an heir to salvation.” (“5 Ways To Put Your Angels To Work,” Kenneth Copeland Ministries)

Another Protestant site has an article entitled, “You Can Command Angels to Help You!” The Bible passages it cites don’t prove this, in my opinion. A third site states, “Yes, you CAN command angels with your words and your prayers.” There is even a book called Commanding Angels. So this exists. But it would be very difficult to find any Catholic of any note who believes in something this stupid and unbiblical. And this is the point. The error exists in your ranks. It doesn’t in ours. And I think that you have to ask yourself why that is?

It’s important to realize that the meme doesn’t necessarily have to mean that all Protestants believe all these things. That false notion is at the root of many objections in my Facebook thread. It’s implying (at least in my opinion and interpretation) that these beliefs can be or are found among Protestants.
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To use an analogy, I could put up a meme about “The Democratic Party” and list seven things that some or many Democrats believe (free abortion and widespread illegal immigration and opposition to fossil fuels would be three examples). It wouldn’t follow that every Democrat believes all seven things; as Democrats (the men and women on the street; not just the politicians) are quite diverse as a group, just as Protestants are. But the generalizations would hold. Democrats are absolutely overwhelmingly in favor of legal abortion, etc. The fact that some aren’t doesn’t negate the legitimacy of the generalization. And the same applies to this meme.
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It’s not our fault that Protestantism includes many weird and false beliefs within itself. You get angry when we merely point some of these out. But every difference of opinion within Protestantism entails at least one false view or two. They can’t both be true. Therefore, Protestantism by nature contains much false doctrine, simply because of the innumerable contradictions. It’s up to you to change that, but the grossly unbiblical spectacle of denominationalism has never been resolved and never will be because your own rule of faith of sola Scriptura precludes the possibility.  We can solve things because we abide by the biblical notions of authority: an authoritative Church and tradition in harmony with and guided by the inspired revelation of Holy Scripture and the Holy Spirit.
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By the way, I , too, opposed and wrote about the “name it claim it” / “all are healed” heresy and nonsense as an evangelical Protestant (and charismatic) in 1982. It was one of my earliest apologetics projects. I was also refuting the Jehovah’s Witnesses in the same time-period and defending the Deity of Jesus and the Holy Trinity from Scripture.
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The other part of this entry is “not ask[ing] their [angels’] help.” The vast majority of Protestants certainly oppose invocation of angels or departed human beings. That is absolutely indisputable. But this action is biblical. There is even a passage in Scripture where prayer petitions are asked of an angel and granted (!):
Genesis 19:15, 18-21 When morning dawned, the angels urged Lot, saying, “Arise, take your wife and your two daughters who are here, lest you be consumed in the punishment of the city.”. . . And Lot said to them, “Oh, no, my lords; behold, your servant has found favor in your sight, and you have shown me great kindness in saving my life; but I cannot flee to the hills, lest the disaster overtake me, and I die. Behold, yonder city is near enough to flee to, and it is a little one. Let me escape there — is it not a little one? — and my life will be saved!” He said to him, “Behold, I grant you this favor also, that I will not overthrow the city of which you have spoken.
That’s asking an angel to help, and prayer to an angel, and the Bible presents it as perfectly fine and dandy. We’re biblical in this respect; probably 99% of Protestants aren’t (some high Anglicans would agree with us).
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4) I don’t talk to the devil, but he (unlike deceased Christians) is around and might actually hear me;
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I make numerous biblical arguments for the invocation of saints, which this item in the meme mentioned, as a thing Protestants deny. The best one, I think, is the rich man’s prayer petitions to Abraham (Luke 16). Abraham never rebukes him for petitioning him, but he answers “no”: just as God does when we ask something improper or against His will. So that’s one thing. As for talking to the devil, Jesus did that in the wilderness, so we certainly can (He being our model: 1 Cor 11:1; 1 Thess 1:6; Heb 12:2-3).
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I think James 4:7 (“Resist the devil and he will flee from you”) is consistent with the practice of talking to him when resisting him. Jesus said, “Begone, Satan!” (Mt 4:10), so we could say the same thing, applying James 4:7. So the relevant question here for Protestants, is, why are they reluctant to do a thing (talk to the devil) that Jesus Himself did?
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5) Who ever suggested that Mary does not get a crown?
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Again, the meaning behind this is that Protestants resist any mention of Jesus as the Queen of Heaven, etc., as supposed idolatry (“Mariolatry”), even though this is explicitly biblical (Rev 12:1: “on her head a crown of twelve stars”). Why? Several of the points in the meme are criticizing the very common Protestant shortcoming of “either/or” false dichotomies. An entire (brilliant) book was written about this very tendency, called The Spirit and Forms of Protestantism, by Louis Bouyer, a Lutheran convert to Catholicism. My very highest recommendation!

6) Everyone who is in Christ actually IS the Church;
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This point was about interpreting Scripture. Protestants — in the final analysis, or bottom line — essentially give the individual the final say in this, by adopting sola Scriptura, since it removed infallibility for the Church. Therefore, the individual (like Luther, who invented this!) can judge the institutional (Catholic / Orthodox) Church. That’s exactly what Luther did in 1521 at the Diet of Worms. He knew better than the entire unbroken 1500-year tradition of the Catholic Church. I’ll get to what the Church is in my next reply.
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7) The Church is comprised of all who are in Christ. No church building or organization is “the Church.” That identity is reserved for the disciple community—the whole body of Christ globally. No one local congregation can claim to be the whole body of Christ.
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This is untrue. The name of the group which is comprised of “all who are in Christ”: at last in terms of all who are actually saved and go to heaven in the end, is “the elect.” And the problem with that is that no one knows for sure who is in the elect, because we don’t perfectly know the future, and Christians can fall away from the faith. In the Bible, there are many instances of folks who are probably fallen away already, being included in the blanket term as members of the local church. So, for example, when Paul wrote to the Galatians, he addressed them as “To the churches of Galatia” (Gal 1:2). That is, he’s writing to those whom he considers part of the Church.
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Yet in that group were terrible folks, since Paul wrote, “O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified?. . . Are you so foolish? Having begun with the Spirit, are you now ending with the flesh?” (Gal 3:1, 3). It’s the same with the seven churches in revelation. In that instance, Jesus is talking to them, commending and rebuking. But he addresses them as [local] churches. The people in those assemblies are part of the Church, in other words. There are bad people in the Church. And we don’ know who the elect are until we get to heaven and literally see who made it.
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“Church” (ecclesia) is used many times in Scripture in the sense of the entire institutional Church. There are many arguments to be made along these lines, and I have made them. One of my favorites is the Jerusalem Council. This was led by Peter and the bishop of Jerusalem, James, attended by Paul, and consisted of “apostles and elders.” It made a decree that was agreed with by the Holy Spirit (i.e., an infallible or even inspired one) — Acts 15:28 — , which was proclaimed by Paul far and wide as binding on Christians (Acts 16:4).
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That’s undeniably an institutional Church, and one that produced infallible binding decrees in council: all of which is contrary to the beliefs of most Protestants. Sola Scriptura denies that councils can be infallible, but the Jerusalem Council was. You deny that the Church was an organization. Yet here it was. BIG discussion — and if you hang around, we can get into that in far more depth — , but that is my short, nutshell answer for now.
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Who told you these falsehoods about your “separated brethren”?
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I draw these conclusions from my own study as an apologist (over 43 years) and “sociological observer” (I’m a sociology major) and my 13-year history as a zealous evangelical Protestant. I’ve defended them now and have pointed out the broad, general nature of the meme, which is always necessary in any “statement” about Protestantism.
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I simply responded truthfully, line-by-line to the meme.
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And now I have extended to you the same “favor” and courtesy.
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[To someone else] you did not find Christ in a Protestant setting, which tells me you were never actually a “Christian” in Protestantism. . . . you have never known Christ–only religion
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You don’t know that. You can’t say that about him because you don’t know his heart. Only God knows that. You don’t know enough about him to make such a sweeping judgment, because he didn’t say that much about his personal spiritual life. But here you are judging his soul. And the insult is complete with a Protestant slogan: the pitting of Christ against religious observance, as if that is valid to do. Religion is not a bad thing. It’s not a dirty word. It appears six times in the NT in RSV (and religious also appears three times), in an entirely positive sense. So who are we to make it a term of condescending disdain when the Bible doesn’t?
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Since neither Christ nor the apostles affirmed any point in this paragraph, I will assume you take these things to be true on the authority of the particular religious establishment in which you have chosen to place your confidence. 
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All of them are affirmed in the Bible, and I have shown that in many of my articles and books. You make bald statements. I make elaborate biblical and historical, rational arguments. The Mormon comparison is an old tired and boorish saw. Don’t even try that, if I am around.
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this was also true of many early Christian congregations before the idea of apostolic succession was invented.
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Apostolic succession is explicitly biblical. See, for example:
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Apostolic Succession as Seen in the Jerusalem Council [National Catholic Register, 1-15-17]
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Answers to Questions About Apostolic Succession [National Catholic Register, 7-25-20]
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A New Biblical Argument for Apostolic Succession [National Catholic Register, 4-23-21]
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You may have been around Pentecostals. Most Protestants do not believe in such things.
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Yeah, I agreed above. I contend that the meme doesn’t require an interpretation that “all Protestants believe everything in the meme.” Wikipedia (“Pentecostalism”) states that “worldwide Pentecostal and Charismatic Christianity numbers over 644 million adherents.” I was a charismatic evangelical for ten years and I attend a Catholic charismatic parish now (since 2020). I never believed that I could command an angel, but if even, say, a third of pentecostals believe this (I don’t know how many do), that’s about 215 million people (60 million more than all worldwide Lutherans and Presbyterians combined).
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That’s more than sufficiently enough to note this as a belief of [some] Protestants. By contrast, there are 80 million Lutherans worldwide, 85 million Anglicans, 80 million Methodists, 170 million Baptists, and 75 million Presbyterians. There is overlap in the categories, but assuming for comparison’s sake that pentecostals are a distinct group, they have 154 million more people than all of these very mainstream denominations combined. That even brings into question the notion that pentecostals are a minority in Protestantism. Sounds like they are a majority and by far the largest single distinct group.
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I have been in very many different Protestant churches and do not find this to be accepted in the vast majority of cases. No Protestant I know believes in commanding angels.
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Then you must not have been to many pentecostal churches. I have. As I said, I was a charismatic evangelical, and most of my time was spent there (Assemblies of God, where I got married, and non-denominational congregations).
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I have been in (probably) about 100 (I have taught in many around the world over the last 55 years), and have never seen such a reaction to the mention of the mother of Jesus. Your experience seems very limited.
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The mere mention of Mary doesn’t do that (after all, Protestants talk about her quite a bit at Christmas, but not much the rest of the year), but if anyone dares mention “Catholic” views of Mary, even those which all Protestants once believed (like her perpetual virginity) or say she is the “mother of God” there is plenty of scorn.
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What all of these people, including you, have in common is a blind loyalty to a preferred religious system, which has no support from scripture.
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If you believe that, then you may have come to the very last place you want to be online: to the person whose career is centered around “biblical Catholicism.” I hope you stick around. You’ll see how biblical Catholicism is. We can discuss whatever you like. I’ve covered all of the major areas of theology in my 4,800+ articles and 55 books. You didn’t even claim we have “less” support than Protestantism does, but rather, “no support. Every Christian group supports their views from Scripture. We are no exception. I can attest to the fact that as a Catholic, I have learned about Scripture in exponentially more depth than I ever did as a Protestant. And I say that as one with deep respect for Protestantism and for my own former teachers during my evangelical experience.
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If you wish to explore the controversy at a somewhat more thoughtful level, you might be interested in hearing my five debates with Jimmy Akin on Catholic Answers—or my five debates with Tim Staples at my own website
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Good for you. Then perhaps you will be willing to dialogue with me, too. I hope so! You can start by replying to this, or by picking another topic of your choice (but I hope you do that after you respond to this). I’ve done probably over 1,000 written debates.
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I promise never to complain about any truth. However, you have only repeated controversial and unsupportable Catholic talking points, which I have heard hundreds of times, but which I know to have no scriptural case in their favor.
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Then you must not have run across me before. I can defend, and have defended virtually every Catholic “distinctive” doctrine from Scripture: most many times. And this has been done for a long time. A book that highly influenced me was James Cardinal Gibbons‘ book, The Faith of Our Fathers (1876). It’s filled with scriptural arguments. So is St. Francis de Sales’ superb book, The Catholic Controversy, which helped convert over 70,000 Calvinists in France (not to mention St. Thomas Aquinas’ work, too).
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So yeah, Protestants don’t have a monopoly on biblical argumentation, much as you may have deluded yourself is supposedly the case. We all make sincere biblical arguments; we all revere the inspired revelation of Scripture. That’s what we have in common. And that’s why I defend Catholicism from Scripture. We’re by far the most thoroughly biblical communion in Christianity.
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Sadly, you have done nothing to demonstrate that these statements even have the slightest likelihood of being true.
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He may not have (I don’t know), but I have. If you want to get into this discussion, then do it with the person who has devoted his life for now 34 years (the last nearly 23 as a professional, full-time, published apologist), to defending Catholicism from Scripture. That’s what Protestants (generalizing! — but in this instance from long personal experience) are so unwilling to do. They’re very reluctant to engage with Catholics who are willing and prepared to engage their arguments (from Scripture or history) point-by-point and in great depth. I was willing to do that as a Protestant, and as a result I am a Catholic. I knew the superior arguments once I finally came into contact with them.
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No, you are not restricted to one choice, namely, to generalize about Protestants. You admit that Protestants vary broadly from each other, so generalization is simply impossible and irresponsible.
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That’s simply untrue. We generalize all the time about many things. There is nothing wrong with it. I have defended each point of the meme. If you disagree, now is your chance to counter-reply.
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If you have known some Protestants who hold the views you listed, you might mention which brand you are referring to, while pointing out that they would represent a tiny minority of those under the diverse Protestant rubric.
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I have done some of that. I already blew away your insinuation that pentecostals are but a tiny fraction of Protestantism. They are not at all. They are the fastest growing sector, by far.
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Making irresponsible and false generalizations
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I vehemently deny that, per my above argumentation and much more that I could provide. You act as if no one can ever make any generalizations about anything, which is patently absurd. Sociology (my major) and many other fields heavily utilize it. See, for example, “Generic Generalizations,” by Sarah-Jane Leslie and Adam Lerner, in the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy. It states:
It is clear that generics are not equivalent to universal statements, but rather permit exceptions—that is, generics can be true even if some (or sometimes many) members of the kind lack the property in question. Generics also do not mean “most”; it is false that most mosquitoes carry the West Nile virus and true that most books are paperbacks, but our intuitions about the truth/falsity of the corresponding generics are reversed.
I love the following piece about generalizations that I found in a search:
When someone posts a generalization someone will post an exception.
Why is that?
Exceptions do not mean generalization are not generally true.
Generally does not mean always.

Hypothetical examples:

Someone posts that men are generally stronger than women, so someone will mention a very strong woman they know.
Someone generalizes that hybrid cars are usually driven more slowly than other cars, so someone will mention a hybrid owner that drives fast.
Someone generalizes that cats are more aloof than dogs, so someone will mention a very affectionate cat they know.
Someone generalizes that people with higher education usually make more money, so someone will mention a rich high school drop out they know of, or a person with a master degree working at a low-paying job.

There are a thousand examples here on PS.
I’m sure I’ve done it myself.
Why do we bother post exceptions?
It seems redundant.
Are generalizations somehow upsetting or threatening to people?
Do they think people making generalizations are so stupid that they think there are no exceptions?
Do they think exceptions neutralize what usually holds true?
Is this just PC-ness run amok?
Generalizations are okay.
They are only generalizations, in this article
you are not opposed to misrepresenting those who are not in your camp—giving the profound impression that only such lies make it possible to make your view seem valid.
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As I have shown, I have not done that. All of the points in the meme have been believed by Protestants; often, by many, and sometimes by very many. These are strong words. You need to counter-reply, since I have expended so much effort to refute your charges, and other similar ones in the same thread, in this article.
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I don’t think it is right for one group to mischaracterize the other. It only makes points with the ignorant. 
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I completely agree. Again, I vigorously deny that I have done this, and have now explained why I have done so. You are the one grotesquely misrepresenting, by claiming that Catholics have “no” biblical arguments at all to support our positions. I assume for the sake of charity that you are profoundly ignorant of Catholicism, to say such a silly and outlandish thing. You couldn’t possibly claim this if you had even a rudimentary familiarity with Catholic apologetics and theology.
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[we also had this exchange about how Christian Catholicism is]
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I wanted to clarify one thing with you: can someone who believes and practices all that the Catholic Church teaches be saved, be a Christian, a believer, a disciple of Jesus, and heaven-bound? In other words, is Catholicism a species of Christianity alongside all the other groups or denominations? Or are we out of the fold because we’re Catholic?

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I believe very many Catholics have been true followers of Jesus (St. Francis, Girolamo Savonarola, G.K. Chesterton, and Mother Theresa come immediately to mind).
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Vatican II, likewise, seems to allow that many Protestant believers are also saved (assuming they don’t understand that the Catholic Church is the true church).
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I don’t think it is right for one group to mischaracterize the other. It only makes points with the ignorant. No one needs my permission to choose their church assembly according to their conscience. You may notice that I have not said one word of attack about Catholicism. I simply (without rancor) corrected the misrepresentations of Protestantism in the meme.

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Okay, good, so a Catholic, and a solid Catholic can possibly be saved. St. Francis, St. Teresa of Calcutta, and G. K. Chesterton all accepted all that the Church teaches. So you do believe that Catholicism a species of Christianity alongside all the other groups or denominations?
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I believe there is only one species of Christianity, but several varieties (as there are 200 varieties of dogs, but all the same species). The one species of Christianity in the Bible is comprised only of true disciples of Jesus (Acts 11:26). In biblical times, there was only one variety.
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Over the course of history, disciples have developed various worship forms and theological controversies that did not exist in the original movement, but these differences do not all place a person outside the fold under the Shepherd. These varieties are not all equally valid, of course, but nor do they, if believed by a true follower of Christ, necessarily make that person “not a Christian.”
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So just to be clear, you hold that Catholicism is a “variety” of true Christianity (just as, say, Lutheranism or Calvinism are)? It seems so, by your last sentence, but I just wanted to be absolutely sure. It’s relevant because unless you acknowledge this, you would be dialoguing with me as an outsides, not a brother in Christ, and in a superior-subordinate relationship, not an equal one: as two committed disciples of our Lord and Savior and Redeemer Jesus Christ.
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I do not know you personally, so I hold no theories concerning your salvation. All true disciples of Jesus are saved. They are “Christians” by the only definition of that word found in scripture (Acts 11:26). If you are a disciple of Jesus (I am in no position to have an opinion about that), then you are a Christian. I don’t decide these things about others. You do not need my affirmation about this, if you have God’s.
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I didn’t ask you if I was saved. I asked you (now for the third time): “do you hold that Catholicism is a ‘variety’ of true Christianity (just as, say, Lutheranism or Calvinism are)?”
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You are asking about an institution; I am talking about the community of Christ. In the latter, there are Catholics and Protestants. If you wish to reframe this to say “Catholic (Christians) are Christians, and therefore part of Christianity,” I have no objection, but it is hardly different from what I have said previously every time you asked.
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By the way, why are you so interested in my opinion about this? God’s opinion is the only one that matters. I have never set out to cut any particular group of Christians off from the Christian fold. My point is that Christians are individuals who follow Christ. I don’t care where they sit on Sunday mornings. That is irrelevant to their following of Christ.
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Thank you for the clarification. This is a specific aspect of the larger determination of whether anti-Catholicism is in play or not (i.e., the denial that Catholics who adhere to all of the Catholic Church’s teachings can be Christians or be saved). With this answer you prove that you are not anti-Catholic, so I’m delighted to hear that.
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In light of no responses whatever to my counter-reply blog post in over 8 1/2 hours (after scores and scores of rapid-fire criticisms yesterday), perhaps we could add an 8th point to the list in the “controversial” meme:
[8] Where it’s considered proper to go to Catholic sites to preach, troll, and condescend, but not to dialogue or even to read a counter-reply . . .
Note: several commentators flatly refused to even read my reply. They said so. Very open-minded and confident in their views, huh?
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Oh, pardon me. I didn’t realize that I had signed up for an endless dialogue with you. I actually have a life, and a Facebook page where I am called upon to answer many questions on different subjects.
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I did not troll you. Your meme showed up in the notifications on my page. I read it, and responded to it without rancor or challenge. Your meme was inaccurate, so I thought a person who cared about truth, like yourself, would welcome correction. You were not discussing doctrine, but seeking to describe Protestant beliefs. As a Protestant myself, I simply pointed out that neither I nor any Protestants that I know hold those beliefs. If I had known that you didn’t like to be informed, I would have refrained from intruding. I am not used to visiting pages where the host wants to maintain an amen club echo chamber.
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You extended the discussion beyond my first response, so I interacted with you as long as I had time to do so. Then (you must have made the mistake of thinking I am obsessed with conversing with you), you began posting long and irrelevant responses to Protestantism, using me as your example (I don’t object to that).
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What I do object to is that someone thinks himself so important as to oblige me to take hours of my day to read his essays, and (worse yet) to respond to them. If you want my responses to your familiar talking points, feel free to listen to my responses to Tim Staples and Jimmy Akin (I gave you the website). I am not interested in spending my life making the same points to every Catholic who craves my attention. If Scott Hahn wants to debate, I would give him the time. No offense, but you simply are not that big a priority in my life. In fact, I never heard of you before.
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I do not troll Catholic (or any other websites). I don’t even know where they are, nor go looking for them, because they are not of particular interest to me (sorry, again, if that makes you feel less important). I spend as little time online as I can manage, since (as I said) actually have a life in the real world.
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Of course, none of what I wrote applied to you. It was a generalization, as all of this is. That’s what has been so misunderstood. You apparently have a difficulty with understanding statements in context. I referred to “scores and scores of rapid-fire criticisms”: i.e., posts from many commentators. I was contrasting all of that bustling activity to the dead silence today.
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Then I noted that “several commentators flatly refused to even read my reply. They said so.” That wasn’t you. You never said that (though now you do). I was clearly referring to the general tenor of discussion in a very lively thread with many participants. So what do you do? You casually assume that I am referring only to you. And you call me self-important?
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You had shown arrogance in the thread already, particularly in reply to other people: judging their hearts, as if you can read minds. Now your pharisaical, judgmental attitude comes out again, directed towards me. I have less than no desire to interact with an arrogant pompous ass. You argued well, but your attitude stinks to high heaven. And now you won’t have to reply at all to my reply. How convenient!
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Yes. Very convenient. I like convenience. I also like to dialogue with people whose skin is a bit thicker than that of tissue paper. I will leave you to your unoffending audience.
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After this idiotic childish outburst you now accuse me of having a thin skin and wanting to have an echo chamber? You are too much! You’re blind as a bat to your own faults: at least in this instance, as all can see.
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I have no secrets. I am glad that all can see.
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Photo credit: dnet (1-11-08) [Wikimedia Commons / Creative CommonsAttribution-ShareAlike 3.0 License]

Summary: I reply to & interact with well-known Protestant apologist Steve Gregg, who didn’t like a meme I put up which generalized about certain errors in various sectors of Protestantism.

2024-08-14T23:55:05-04:00

Photo credit: St. Peter’s Cathedral in Worms, Germany (west end), in the same city where the famous Diet of Worms with Martin Luther took place, in January-May 1521. Photo by AndreasThum (4-17-11) [Wikimedia Commons / Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike 3.0 Unported license]

Martin Luther completed his treatise, On the Councils and the Church in March 1539. In Luther’s Works (Vol. 41) it takes up 170 pages (9-178; translated in 1966). In the Introduction included in that volume, the editors observe:

Luther’s On the Councils and the Church represents his final judgment concerning the medieval church as well as the first broad foundation for a new doctrine of the church within nascent Lutheranism. . . . Luther concludes from his analysis that although councils protect the church from error, they have no authority to create new articles of faith. . . .

Experience taught Luther to bury all hopes for any reconciliation with Rome — a sad lesson, climaxing in the conviction that “a free, general, Christian council,” once his dream, was never to become a reality. (p. 5)

I will be utilizing a different public domain translation of Rev. C. B. Smyth: published in London by William Edward Painter in 1847; available at Internet Archive. When I cite Scripture, it is RSV. Luther’s words will be in blue.

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I have bypassed Luther’s Preface, which consists of ranting and raving and little actual argument. Likewise, I will pass over similar material in my reply and stick to portions where Luther is actually lucid and presents some sort of sustained rational argument. Luther is not Calvin, who (like him or not) systematically presents concise, cogent arguments. Unless one wants to essentially descend to a shouting match or polemics and little else (which helps nobody), one must necessarily be selective in what to respond to in Luther.

They will consign the Church to ruin sooner than they will give way in one point — that is, they will first give up councils and fathers before they will abandon anything invented by themselves. For were the councils and the fathers faithfully followed, ah, then, what a sorry figure would the pontiff and modern prelates exhibit? (p. 14)

Of course, we say precisely this against Lutherans and larger Protestantism. It’s because they have departed from the Church fathers and early councils that they have gone astray in many ways. Not only do they massively differ from patristic consensus in several major ways (as I have shown many times: see my Fathers of the Church web page); they also contradict each other innumerable times, since they have split into many hundreds of sects, and have no way to resolve that scandalous problem. Where there are serious differences of opinion, contradictions are massively and necessarily present, on one side or possibly both, in any given conflict.  But Catholicism can trace itself back to the beginning, in an unbroken chain of consistent development of doctrine.

They must go to ruin, and cease to remain as lords in the ascendant. (p. 15)

Thus prophesied Luther in 1539. We’re still here, teaching the same as always, whereas his Lutherans have split into factions: most of them theologically liberal and contrary to historic Lutheranism, while a small portion remains true. If that’s supposedly the “mainstream” of Christianity, it’s a pathetic thing indeed.

Why, the universal vicar is above councils, above fathers, above kingly and divine authority, and angels! Let me see you bring him down to submission, and (if you can) make fathers and councils to dictate to the apostolic vicar. (p. 16)

I guess he’s projecting here, since he wrote 17 years earlier about himself:

I call myself an ecclesiastic by the grace of God in defiance of you and the devil, although you call me a heretic with an abundance of slander. And even if I called myself an evangelist by the grace of God, I would still be more confident of proving it than that any one of you could prove his episcopal title or name. I am certain that Christ himself, who is the master of my teaching, gives me this title and regards me as one. Moreover, he will be my witness on the Last Day that it is not my pure gospel but his. . . . 

I need not have any title and name to praise highly the word, office, and work which I have from God and which you blind blasphemers defile and persecute beyond measure. I trust my praise will overcome your defiling, just as my justice will overcome your injustice. It does not matter if, with your blasphemy, you are on top for the moment.

Therefore, I now let you know that from now on I shall no longer do you the honor of allowing you – or even an angel from heaven – to judge my teaching or to examine it. For there has been enough foolish humility now for the third time at Worms, and it has not helped. Instead, I shall let myself be heard and, as St. Peter teaches, give an explanation and defense of my teaching to all the world – I Pet. 3:15. I shall not have it judged by any man, not even by any angel. For since I am certain of it, I shall be your judge and even the angels’ judge through this teaching(as St. Paul says [I Cor. 6:3 ]) so that whoever does not accept my teaching may not be saved – for it is God’s and not mine. Therefore, my judgment is also not mine but God’s. (Against the Spiritual Estate of the Pope and the Bishops Falsely So-Called, July 1522; from Luther’s Works, Vol. 39: Church and Ministry I, excerpt from pp. 247-249; see much more along these lines)

In stark contrast, popes massively consult with bishops, priests, and even laypeople, before making any major doctrinal or dogmatic pronouncements, as I recently documented. No one could disagree with Luther (if they did he often consigned them to a destiny in hell, in his singular foreknowledge). He was as autocratic and dogmatic (in the worst sense of that word) as they come.

The holy father will not succumb to any reformation of himself and inferior lords, cardinals, and prelates — no council can be of any service — no reformation is to be hoped for in the Catholic Church. Thus he tramples under foot the bare mention of any proposals, and peremptorily bids us to close our lips. Are we required, then, to allow ourselves to be reformed, and benefit the Church with their co-operation, according to conciliar and patristic patterns, when truly the pontiff and papists will not allow it to be put to experiment? . . .

Even in points of importance we would bend, so far as we could, without opposing the Almighty. Yes: we are willing to give way to the very last degree of suffering in order to avert injury and destruction from the Churches, according to the utmost of our knowledge and our power. (pp. 17-18)

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Anyone can talk a good game, but it takes the cooperation of two parties to compromise or come to any resolution of honest disagreements. So what do we observe in the closest thing to any sort of attempt at reconciliation between Catholics and Protestants near the beginning of the Protestant Revolt, at the Diet of Augsburg in 1530? Catholic historian Warren Carroll described the proceedings and the lack of tolerance in the Lutheran party:

Early in July the bishops presented their complaints to the Diet of the plundering and destruction of churches, seizure of monasteries and hospitals, prohibition of Masses, and attacks on religious processions by the Protestants. When Charles called upon the Protestants to restore the property they had seized, they said that to do so would be against their consciences. Charles responded crushingly: ‘The Word of God, the Gospel, and every law civil and canonical, forbid a man to appropriate to himself the property of another.’ He said that as Emperor he had the duty of guarding the rights of all, especially those Catholics unwilling to accept Protestantism or go into exile, who should at least be allowed to remain in their homes and practice their ancestral faith, specifically the Mass; the Protestants replied that they would not tolerate the Mass . . .

On the 13th [of July] Luther announced from Coburg that the Protestants would never tolerate the Mass, which he called blasphemous, and said of the Emperor:

We know that he is in error and that he is striving against the Gospel . . . He does not conform to God’s Word and we do . . .

Luther stated in a letter to Melanchthon [on] August 26:

This talk of compromise . . . is a scandal to God . . . I am thoroughly displeased with this negotiating concerning union in doctrine, since it is utterly impossible unless the Pope wishes to take away his power.

In subsequent letters he declared that no religious settlement was possible as long as the Pope remained and the Mass was unchanged . . .

The Augsburg Confession must endure, as the true and unadulterated Word of God, until the great Judgment Day . . . Not even an angel from Heaven could alter a syllable of it, and any angel who dared to do so must be accursed and damned . . . The stipulations made that monks and nuns still dwelling in their cloisters should not be expelled, and that the Mass should not be abolished, could not be accepted; for whoever acts against his conscience simply paves his way to Hell. The monastic life and the Mass covered with infamous ignominy the merit and suffering of Christ. Of all the horrors and abominations that could be mentioned, the Mass was the greatest.

. . . no Catholic of spirit and courage could be expected, let alone morally required, to give up all his religious rights without a struggle; and few Protestants, at this point, would allow Catholics to exercise those rights if the Protestants were strong enough to deny them. These were the irreconcilable positions taken by the two sides at the Diet of Augsburg in 1530, which made those long and bloody years of conflict inevitable. (The Cleaving of Christendom; from the series, A History of Christendom, Volume 4, Front Royal, Virginia: Christendom Press, 2000, 103-107; see more about the council)

These abominable behaviors and positions are supposedly the spirit of “reformation” and “co-operation” that Luther scolded Catholics and popes for not possessing? Protestants were equally as intolerant amongst themselves in the colloquies of Regensburg (1541) and Poissy (1561). There is plenty of inflexibility and unwillingness to change to go around.
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The difference, however, is that Catholics were simply wishing to continue their 1500-year history of development, whereas Protestants were seeking to establish a novel doctrine and “church” which had existed for less than a generation (indeed, for only 13 years at the time of the Diet of Augsburg). Luther burst onto the scene in 1517, and by 1520 had demanded that the Catholic Church change its beliefs and practices in at least fifty ways. No institution can reasonably or sensibly be expected to do that just because one man arbitrarily and irrationally demands it.
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In the first place, it is notorious that the councils not only do not harmonize, but are perfectly contradictory to each other. (p. 23)
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This is a fundamental disagreement. Because Luther and Protestants believe this (part of sola Scriptura: nothing is infallible except the Bible), Luther is bound to argue the position he does. Protestantism doesn’t have enough faith to believe that God could or would protect His Church from error. Catholics, on the other hand, have faith enough — by God’s grace — to believe that He can and does protect His Church from error in terms of infallible pronouncements not being contradictory (non-infallible ones can contradict, by definition; this is a crucial distinction to be kept in mind throughout this analysis): just as He preserved Holy Scripture without error.
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The same charge is equally applicable to the patristic writers. (p. 23)
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Here Luther denies what is called “unanimous consent” of the fathers: a term that is much misunderstood. In an ecclesiological / patristic context, “unanimous consent” doesn’t mean “absolutely every” — as it is commonly used today in general usage, but rather, “consensus of the vast majority” in line with the magisterium of the Church (see more on this issue).
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I strongly contend that Protestantism is doctrinally very often at odds with what the Church fathers taught, and I have documented this time and again. Church fathers clearly do contradict each other in many areas, but a broad consensus can be easily observed. I have documented and summarized the fathers’ teaching regarding, for example, the rule of faith (rejection of sola Scriptura), their rejection of “faith alone” (sola fide): see Part 1 and Part 2, and baptism: all positions in line with Catholicism and in conflict with Protestantism.
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A mighty task, indeed, it would be to select the truth, and reject what is false, in the midst of so much that is unlike and wholly at variance with itself! (pp. 23-24)
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This is precisely why Catholics believe that God ordained an authoritative Church (the magisterium) — protected in its infallibility and indefectibility by God — to make these determinations (including things like the canon of Scripture). Since Lutheranism ditched the magisterium and infallible Church, it can only offer arbitrary and conflicting opinions (often merely a head count of scholars), and that is the Protestant tragedy. Protestants will fight with each other till Kingdom come, with no way of resolving anything, because there is no final say.
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All they can do is split from each other and form new groups, after their endless squabbling produces no resolution. Meanwhile, the Bible teaches that there is one faith, one Church, and not hundreds of competing sects. The latter is roundly condemned in the Bible, especially by St. Paul, and Luther agreed with him; so did Calvin and Melanchthon in their correspondence. Protestantism is institutionally hopeless: doomed to be forever unbiblical and at odds with the 1500-year Christian tradition before it.
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Who is to distinguish on these questions? (p. 24)
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Excellent question! Protestantism can’t answer it.
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St. Augustine . . . mentions no other than [baptism and the Eucharist as sacraments]. (p. 25) 
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Augustine taught that matrimony was a sacrament: “Undoubtedly the substance of the sacrament is of this bond, so that when man and woman have been joined in marriage they must continue inseparably . . .” (Marriage and Concupiscence, 1:10:11 and 1:17:19). So was penance / absolution: “In the Church, therefore, there are three ways in which sins are forgiven: in baptisms, in prayer, and in the greater humility of penance” (Sermon to Catechumens on the Creed, 8:16). And confirmation: “By this ointment you wish the sacrament of chrism to be understood, which is indeed holy as among the class of visible signs, like baptism itself” (Against Petilian the Donatist, 2, 104:239). And holy orders: “There remains in the ordained persons the Sacrament of Ordination” (On the Good of Marriage, III:412).
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He also believed in performing Extreme Unction / Anointing, which is a Catholic sacrament as well (see more about all of these). So Luther was wrong five times about what St. Augustine taught. He falsely believed that Augustine affirmed only two sacraments, and so followed the “practice” that was a myth of his own invention. This is hardly impressive, let alone compelling.
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What are we then to do? Must we subject the Church once more to patristic and conciliar teaching and practice? This is the ground taken by Augustine; but such a step in us would lead us into error. . . . Suppose we banish Austin [Augustine] from their ranks — the residue of them would not be of any great value. (p. 32)
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Huh?! Protestant apologists tell us till they are blue in the face that they follow the Church fathers supposedly far more closely than Catholics do; they honor and esteem them as great authorities in Christianity (though not infallible), etc. But now here is Luther expressly rejecting any subjection to them, and disagreeing even with his (off and on) hero St. Augustine! This strikingly confirms what we have often noted: the ahistoricism, anti-traditionalism and radical subjectivism of Protestantism.
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Protestants reject the fathers and simply casually assume that Luther, Calvin, Bucer, Bullinger, Zwingli et al know better than they do. In other words: get rid of the influence of the early Church and follow instead self-proclaimed “reformers” fifteen centuries after Christ, who want to introduce scores of unheard-of novelties. “The fathers contradicted each other, so we’ll ditch them.” This is the mentality. Like Protestant don’t do the same thing to a much greater degree?! It makes very little sense, once adequately scrutinized. The Bible states, in contrast: “Remove not the ancient landmark which your fathers have set” (Prov 22:28).
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The preachers at this [Jerusalem] council declare that the sentence of the Holy Spirit [Acts 15:28] is that Christians must keep themselves from things offered to idols, and blood, and strangled, &c. Shall we then, constitute the government of a Church after this highest and first model? If so, then none must touch the red interior of the birds, animals, and fishes, and the game that is strangled by hunters. Shall we adopt this prohibition? Are the Hebrews to become directors over our churches and kitchens, who will eat no meat with Pagan or Christian? (pp. 32-33)

This is a clever argument; I’ll give Luther that much. But it ultimately falls short and doesn’t accomplish what he thinks. Faced with a clear example of a conciliar decision guided by the Holy Spirit, he must somehow discount it, lest his novelty sola Scriptura be overthrown by a biblical teaching of an infallible council (which expressly contradicts sola Scriptura). So how does he do that? He notes that it is a timebound or temporary decision, having to do with legal dietary requirements, that obviously haven’t applied to all of history.

In terms of being analogous to the full Catholic notion of an infallible decision, which is that it is irrevocable for all time, Luther’s point has force. It’s true that it’s not analogous in that sense. But the decision also had the other quality of conciliar or ecclesiastical infallibility: being binding upon all Christians at the time it is given. In that sense, the Jerusalem Council still contradicts sola Scriptura. It was binding upon Christians far and wide, as shown by how the text treats St. Paul’s promulgation of it:

Acts 16:4 As they went on their way through the cities, they delivered to them for observance the decisions which had been reached by the apostles and elders who were at Jerusalem.

The decision would be analogous to the original giving of the Law to Moses on Mt. Sinai. Jews were bound to that. Things changed later as the new covenant came into being and the New Testament was written, with a radically developed interpretation of the place of the Law in the Christian life. But for the observant Jew, the Mosaic Law was written in stone (figuratively and literally).

Let us understand these matters well before we commit the Church to the modes of life prescribed by ecclesiastical councils. If the first and highest gives us such embarrassment, how shall we dispose of all the rest? (p. 35)

Luther triumphantly — but prematurely — declares victory concerning this dispute. But he hasn’t understood the second aspect of this, that I just pointed out. The decision was binding on Christians far and wide. In other words, it was not merely local, as many Protestants argue was the case in early Church ecclesiology: authority extended no further than the local church. The Jerusalem Council puts the lie to that. It shows an authoritative and hierarchical (as well as episcopal) Church. Bishops and apostles and elders got together and decided what was what. And their word was law, and was ratified by the Holy Spirit (which makes it impossible to be wrong, when it was decreed, albeit being temporary)

But I must not forget to resume the subject of the Nicene assembly — the best and first general synod after that held by the holy apostles. One of its decrees commands all Christians who have grievously sinned to be debarred from absolution for seven years; and, if they die before the septennial penance be completed, they are to be absolved and to partake of the Eucharist at the point of death. But what is the practice now of the advocates for councils? (p. 35)

The same analysis I made above applies here. It was an authoritative temporary decree, just as the Mosaic Law ultimately was. St. Paul taught that:

Galatians 3:23-26 Now before faith came, we were confined under the law, kept under restraint until faith should be revealed. [24] So that the law was our custodian [KJV: tutor”] until Christ came, that we might be justified by faith. [25] But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a custodian; [26] for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith.

If we set this constitution aside, we may dispense with all conciliar edicts. (p. 36)

True to form, Luther throws the baby out with the bathwater. It was his constant method. But this doesn’t follow. The Jerusalem Council proved that conciliar and hierarchical authority is a feature of Christianity. Pope Peter was the central figure, and James the bishop of Jerusalem also played an important role. The Council of Nicaea showed the same thing, even though it dealt with things that weren’t binding for all time, either.

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Photo credit: St. Peter’s Cathedral in Worms, Germany (west end), in the same city where the famous Diet of Worms with Martin Luther took place, in January-May 1521. Photo by AndreasThum (4-17-11) [Wikimedia Commons / Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike 3.0 Unported license]

Summary: An examination of Martin Luther’s treatise, “On the Councils and the Church” (March 1539), leading to discussions about the rule of faith and sola Scriptura.

2024-08-07T16:21:11-04:00

Including Documentation of Popes’ Massive Consultation with Bishops and Others Before Declaring Dogmas, and Particulars of the Voting at Vatican I

Photo credit: First Vatican Council, contemporary painting, c. 1870 [source] [public domain / Wikimedia Commons]

Rev. Dr. Jordan B. Cooper is a Lutheran pastor, adjunct professor of Systematic Theology, Executive Director of the popular Just & Sinner YouTube channel, and the President of the American Lutheran Theological Seminary (which holds to a doctrinally traditional Lutheranism, similar to the Lutheran Church – Missouri Synod). He has authored several books, as well as theological articles in a variety of publications. All my Bible citations are from RSV, unless otherwise indicated. Jordan’s words will be in blue.

This is my 18th reply to Jordan (many more to come, because I want to interact with the best, most informed Protestant opponents). All of these respectful critiques can be found in the “Replies to Jordan Cooper” section at the top of my Lutheranism web page. Thus far, he hasn’t responded to any of my critiques, for reasons that he explained on my Facebook page on 17 April 2024:

I appreciate your thoughtful engagement with my material. I also appreciate not being called “anti-Catholic,” as I am not. Unfortunately, it is just a matter of time that I am unable to interact with the many lengthy pieces you have put together. With teaching, writing, running a publishing house, podcasting, working at a seminary, and doing campus ministry, I have to prioritize, which often means not doing things that would be very much worthwhile simply for lack of time.

I appreciate the explanation and nevertheless sincerely hope that Dr. Cooper does have more time and desire to dialogue with me in the future. I think we could have some good and constructive — and civil – discussions. In the meantime, I will continue to try to write what he regards as “thoughtful” and “worthwhile” responses.

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I am replying to Jordan’s video, “Papal Infallibility at Vatican I” (8-3-24). See my Facebook post on his introductory remarks regarding Catholic converts.

2:04 I would like to do something that is a little bit more in depth on the issue of of the papacy.

Good!

5:19  Rome really I think does stand or fall with this issue.

It’s certainly central, I agree, just as Protestantism stands or falls on sola Scriptura and sola fide (Bible Alone and Faith Alone): its two “pillars.”

5:32  if we’re really wrestling with Rome and the claims that Rome makes . . . if the pope really is the Vicar of Christ; if Jesus really did set him up as the head of the church then I’ll submit to him; I should, right? And and you should as well.

I couldn’t agree more!

6:44  I’ve looked at a number of sources . . . that I’m working my way through . . . some of them are those that are defenses of papal infallibility, others are critiques of papal infallibility and the critiques come from both Protestants as well as some of those within Rome or who left Rome to form the Old Catholic Church, so I’m trying to get a wide range of texts that are dealing with these questions.

I did exactly the same in 1990 (because this was my biggest objection to Rome; I despised infallibility), examining the excommunicated Dollinger’s objection to papal infallibility, George Salmon’s critiques, and Hans Kung’s, among others. Then I read St. Cardinal Newman on the other side and some other related materials. Perhaps Dr. Cooper will be willing to read some of my many articles devoted to the issue as well.

7:27 what I’m really trying to hone in on for this particular series is what were the actual claims that were being made at Vatican 1 and what were the arguments that were being produced at that time, because something that I have found within a lot of Roman Catholic apologetics is that the arguments made by apologists today seem to be significantly different in some areas than the arguments that were actually being made when certain things were declared Dogma.

There is more than one approach to anything. I concentrate on biblical proofs for infallibility (including massive corroboration from Protestant Bible scholars in various ways). But I’ve also gone into great depth regarding the historical arguments pro and con.

30:04 [Pope Pius IX] releases this document and this document is really essential for the dogma of papal infallibility, and that is Ineffabilis Deus in 1854. It is here that Pius IXth declares that the Immaculate Conception of the Blessed Mother is a dogma . . . Pius IX is really using the dogma of infallibility in his action here, even before that particular dogma has yet been ratified at any council at all.  You don’t really find anything like Ineffabilis Deus prior to this time. Popes certainly condemn people and condemn ideas but you don’t have such a direct declaration of a single pope outside of a council making such a clear dogmatic decree.

I don’t know how he can make that claim, when Protestants themselves are quite fond of bringing up Unam Sanctam: a Bull of Pope Boniface VIII from November 18, 1302. He starts by writing:

Urged by faith, we are obliged to believe and to maintain that the Church is one, holy, catholic, and also apostolic. We believe in her firmly and we confess with simplicity that outside of her there is neither salvation nor the remission of sins, as the Spouse in the Canticles [Sgs 6:8] proclaims: ‘One is my dove, my perfect one. She is the only one, the chosen of her who bore her,‘ and she represents one sole mystical body whose Head is Christ and the head of Christ is God [1 Cor 11:3]. In her then is one Lord, one faith, one baptism [Eph 4:5]. There had been at the time of the deluge only one ark of Noah, prefiguring the one Church, which ark, having been finished to a single cubit, had only one pilot and guide, i.e., Noah, and we read that, outside of this ark, all that subsisted on the earth was destroyed.

We venerate this Church as one, the Lord having said by the mouth of the prophet: ‘Deliver, O God, my soul from the sword and my only one from the hand of the dog.’ [Ps 21:20] He has prayed for his soul, that is for himself, heart and body; and this body, that is to say, the Church, He has called one because of the unity of the Spouse, of the faith, of the sacraments, and of the charity of the Church. This is the tunic of the Lord, the seamless tunic, which was not rent but which was cast by lot [Jn 19:23- 24]. Therefore, of the one and only Church there is one body and one head, not two heads like a monster; that is, Christ and the Vicar of Christ, Peter and the successor of Peter, since the Lord speaking to Peter Himself said: ‘Feed my sheep‘ [Jn 21:17], meaning, my sheep in general, not these, nor those in particular, whence we understand that He entrusted all to him [Peter].

And it ends like this:

This authority, however, (though it has been given to man and is exercised by man), is not human but rather divine, granted to Peter by a divine word and reaffirmed to him (Peter) and his successors by the One Whom Peter confessed, the Lord saying to Peter himself, ‘Whatsoever you shall bind on earth, shall be bound also in Heaven‘ etc., [Mt 16:19]. Therefore whoever resists this power thus ordained by God, resists the ordinance of God [Rom 13:2], unless he invent like Manicheus two beginnings, which is false and judged by us heretical, since according to the testimony of Moses, it is not in the beginnings but in the beginning that God created heaven and earth [Gen 1:1]. Furthermore, we declare, we proclaim, we define that it is absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff.

This is almost precisely exactly what Jordan claimed no pope had stated before 1854, but here it is, 552 years earlier; 28 years after the previous council (2nd Lyons) and nine years before the next one (Vienne). Protestant apologists who critique our doctrine of “no salvation outside of the Church” — which is massively misunderstood, by the way — cite this document all the time. Jordan himself is certainly familiar with it. I again addressed these arguments six months ago, in replies to Jordan’s friend and fellow YouTube apologist, the Reformed Baptist Gavin Ortlund:

Catholicism & Non-Catholic Salvation (Vs. Gavin Ortlund) + How Early Protestants Widely Damned Other Protestants Who Held Different Theological Views [2-9-24]

But Jordan also does well, I think, and is fair-minded in acknowledging that Pope Blessed Pius IX didn’t act alone at all; that in fact he massively consulted the world’s bishops before issuing his declaration (it was simply done informally, outside of an ecumenical council):

29:34 he writes Ubi Primum in 1849 where he is requesting responses from a a variety of bishops regarding certain some of these debated questions about about Mary . . . he’s relying on those bishops who are experts within theological fields, to get some input from them about this. and then he releases this document and this document is really essential for the dogma of papal infallibility. . . . to be clear he does come to this conclusion through the consultation of a variety of bishops, so he’s not just bringing this up out of nowhere.

Exactly! Protestant critics (I speak generally and more broadly now) can’t have it both ways: on the one hand claim that the pope is an autocrat who acts absolutely alone, like some sort of Christian dictator, and complain loudly about that, but then turn around and note (or be informed of) the actual fact that he always works in these sublime doctrinal matters with the bishops: particularly but not exclusively in ecumenical councils. And so we see this in Ubi Primum:

3. Moreover, Venerable Brethren, many of you have sent letters to Our Predecessor and to Us begging, with repeated insistence and redoubled enthusiasm, that We define as a dogma of the Catholic Church that the most blessed Virgin Mary was conceived immaculate and free in every way of all taint of original sin.

Nor do we lack today eminent theologians — men of intellectual brilliance, of virtue, of holiness and sound doctrine — who have so effectively explained this doctrine and so impressively expounded this proposition that many persons are now wondering why this honor has not already been accorded to the Blessed Virgin by the Church and the Apostolic See — an honor which the widespread piety of the Christian people so fervently desires to have accorded to the Most Holy Virgin by a solemn decree and by the authority of the Church and the Holy See.

4. Welcome indeed have such requests been to Us. They have filled Us with joy.. . .

5. . . . Accordingly, We have appointed certain priests of recognized piety and theological learning, as well as several cardinals of the Holy Roman Church who are renowned because of their ability, piety, wisdom, prudence, and knowledge of the things of God; and We have directed them to make, carefully and thoroughly, a most diligent examination into this most important matter and then provide Us with a complete report. Through such a procedure, We feel that We are following in the clearly marked footsteps of Our Predecessors and that We are emulating their example.

6. Wherefore, Venerable Brethren, We sent you this communication that We may effectively encourage your admirable devotion and your pastoral zeal and thus bring it about that each of you, in such manner as you will see fit, will arrange to have public prayers offered in your diocese for this intention: that the most merciful Father of all knowledge will deign to enlighten Us with the heavenly light of His Holy Spirit, so that in a matter of such moment We may proceed to do what will redound to the greater glory of His Holy Name, to the honor of the most Blessed Virgin, and to the profit of the Church Militant.

We eagerly desire, furthermore, that, as soon as possible, you apprise Us concerning the devotion which animates your clergy and your people regarding the Immaculate Conception of the Blessed Virgin and how ardently glows the desire that this doctrine be defined by the Apostolic See. And especially, Venerable Brethren, We wish to know what you yourselves, in your wise judgment, think and desire on this matter.

That’s Catholic ecclesiology (and a wonderfully balanced and practical thing it is): the pope is leader and head, but it doesn’t follow that he lords it over everyone. He works closely with the community: bishops, priests, and laypeople, just as Jesus said that the greatest would be the servant, and called His disciples His “friends.” Likewise, Peter, though the leader of the early Church (as established on many biblical grounds), referred to himself as “a fellow elder” (1 Pet 5:1). Blessed Pope Pius IX, in his Apostolic Constitution Ineffabilis Deus (8 December 1854), in which he defined ex cathedra the dogma of the Immaculate Conception, again highlighted this sought-after (overwhelming) consensus of the bishops:

[O]n February 2, 1849, we sent an Encyclical Letter from Gaeta to all our venerable brethren, the bishops of the Catholic world, that they should offer prayers to God and then tell us in writing what the piety and devotion of their faithful was in regard to the Immaculate Conception of the Mother of God. . . .

We were certainly filled with the greatest consolation when the replies of our venerable brethren came to us. For, replying to us with a most enthusiastic joy, exultation and zeal, they not only again confirmed their own singular piety toward the Immaculate Conception of the most Blessed Virgin, and that of the secular and religious clergy and of the faithful, but with one voice they even entreated us to define our supreme judgment and authority the Immaculate Conception of the Virgin.

After consulting theologians Blessed Pope Pius IX consulted 603 bishops and 546 (91%) had responded affirmatively. Four or five thought it couldn’t be defined, 24 were “inopportunists” (i.e., believed that the time was not right, independently of the truth of the doctrine), and ten wanted a more indirect definition. That leaves only approximately eighteen (or 3%) who — I am assuming — opposed it altogether. So in fact he was acting quite collegially and not “autocratically” 16 years before the conciliar dogmatic definition of papal infallibility,

Ven. Pope Pius XII — following the lead of earlier popes — acted in precisely the same way when he dogmatically defined the Assumption at the highest level in 1950. According to Alan Schreck (Catholic and Christian, Ann Arbor, Michigan: Servant Books, 1984, 180):

In the hundred years before Pope Pius’ declaration, the popes had received petitions from 113 cardinals, 250 bishops, 32,000 priests and religious brothers, 50,000 religious women, and 8 million lay people, all requesting that the Assumption be recognized officially as a Catholic teaching.

That’s no “top-down dictatorship.” It’s anything but. It’s as “democratic” and “collegial” as anything to be found in Protestantism. So where’s the beef?

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31:50 nothing has been quite so pointed in precisely this way and so he is using his own authority directly and singularly to simply say this is true and you are all bound to submit to it now.

In other words, just as Boniface VIII had done in 1302 . . . But the pope acts in harmony with prior tradition, theological speculation, and the massive consultation of bishops and others. That assuredly wasn’t the case with Martin Luther, the founder of Protestantism. If one wants to see how he proclaimed his truths and bound people to them on pain of hell if they refused, I would highly recommend this excerpt:

I need not have any title and name to praise highly the word, office, and work which I have from God and which you blind blasphemers defile and persecute beyond measure. I trust my praise will overcome your defiling, . . . Therefore, I now let you know that from now on I shall no longer do you the honor of allowing you – or even an angel from heaven – to judge my teaching or to examine it. . . . Instead, I shall let myself be heard and, as St. Peter teaches, give an explanation and defense of my teaching to all the world – I Pet. 3:15. I shall not have it judged by any man, not even by any angel. For since I am certain of it, I shall be your judge and even the angels’ judge through this teaching (as St. Paul says [I Cor. 6:3 ]) so that whoever does not accept my teaching may not be saved – for it is God’s and not mine. Therefore, my judgment is also not mine but God’s. (Against the Spiritual Estate of the Pope and the Bishops Falsely So-Called, July 1522, in Luther’s Works, Vol. 39; except from pp. 248-249; see much more along these lines)

This is what I have called, semi-sarcastically, Luther’s “de facto infallibility” or his (absurdly) self-assumed status as a “super-duper pope.” Real popes, almost needless to add, don’t speak in this ultra-dogmatic, “my way or the highway” manner at all, as the above excerpts from Blessed Pope Pius IX abundantly prove. Later, I’m happy to add, his rhetoric cooled quite a bit, after the Peasants’ Revolt of 1525, and he made quite a few “traditional” statements that Catholics could wholly agree with. I compiled an entire book of those (see the Introduction).

32:18 he is exercising this pointed authority that moves beyond the way that popes have spoken in the past . . . he says “we declare, pronounce, and define”; this is unique; you don’t see this kind of language elsewhere.

No? I again remind Jordan of Unam Sanctam (cited above), where a pope wrote in 1302: “we declare, we proclaim, we define that it is absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff.” This isn’t even as strong as what the Jerusalem Council, led by Pope Peter, declared: “it seemed good to the apostles and the elders, with the whole church . . . it has seemed good to us, having come to one accord . . . it has seemed good to the Holy Spirit . . .” (Acts 15:22, 25, 28).

No less than St. Paul, with Timothy, then went all around Asia Minor (Turkey) and “delivered to them for observance the decisions which had been reached by the apostles and elders who were at Jerusalem” (Acts 16:4). That’s binding Church authority, led by a pope, in consultation with both bishops and priests (or pastors, if one prefers: “elder” or presbuteros in Greek), right in the Bible.

33:05 his is a dogmatic declaration which usually would be something that would arise out of of the council.

Usually, but not always. The pope always had authority to act on his own. He is not obliged to always consult others, but in fact, popes usually choose to do that, too, because the community and the tradition are intrinsically intertwined with any papal decision.

Jordan starts discussing the notion of (from our perspective, heretical) conciliarism: the idea that ecumenical councils were more authoritative than popes. This has never been Catholic teaching, or practice on any magisterial level. I have written about it several times. The following three articles from twenty years ago were in response to a very zealous Presbyterian apologist named Tim Enloe (no longer active online) who was very “big” on conciliarism as a supposed disproof of Catholic ecclesiology:

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50:27 Those who break off and form the Old Catholic Church after Vatican 1 [thought it] . . . was really unjust that the pope essentially decided that he was going to call people that supported his cause and make them bishops and then give them a significant voice at this Council, even though they were not actually bishops in any real sense or a functional sense. Now this isn’t the first time that this kind of thing has happened but it happened, I believe, at least  [according to] some of the claims of the critics is that this happened to a much greater degree here.
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I’ll take his word for this. But assuming this is true, I would note two things:
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1) This shows again that there was participation of those other than true bishops: laypeople, consultants, etc., which goes against the stereotype of the top-down autocrat. This was like the Jerusalem Council, which had apostles and elders. Jordan cites folks who left the Church and were disenchanted with the council because they disagreed with it (i.e., the were thinking like Protestants, as Luther did: councils can err). But it seems that this should make him happy: to discover that not just bishops were involved in the decision-making process.
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2) We can look at the vote for papal infallibility that took place. Encyclopaedia Britannica (“First Vatican Council of Pius IX”) reports:
Pius intervened decisively to alter the procedure of the council on February 20, 1870, and again on April 29. The outcome was to postpone all deliberation except that upon infallibility. The decisive vote came on July 13 when 451 voted for it, 88 against it, and 62 in favour of some amendment. . . . the final definition was carried on July 18 by 533 votes to 2. Infallibility was confined to those occasions upon which the pope made pronouncements ex cathedra.
So even the initial vote of 601 participants was 75% in favor (451), with 62 (only 10%) in favor of amendment. Even if we discounted 120 whom Jordan (perhaps following the reasoning of disgruntled former Catholics like Dollinger) claims were mere hacks and bootlickers appointed by the pope because they agreed with him, it would still be 55% in favor. Those against (88) constituted only 15% of those who voted. That sounds like pretty strong consensus to me. The final vote was then 99.63% in favor. If we take away the “120” the vote would be 413 to 2. So how are they relevant at all to the final outcome? This is straining at gnats.
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Compare that to the early Protestant colloquies, like Regensburg (1541) and Poissy (1561), where the participants could never bring themselves to any broad agreement at all. Luther and Melanchthon had already clashed miserably over the Real Presence in the Eucharist with Zwingli, Bucer, and Oecolampadius, in the Marburg Colloquy in October 1529. Protestants never healed their divisions, which have scandalously multiplied steadily from that time till ours.
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Perhaps that’s one reason why Protestant apologists so often seek to find divisions and contradictions in our councils. They’ve never managed to have any significant and constructive councils in 500 years, and so they pick away at ours (almost as if they are jealous way down deep because they can’t manage — and never have managed — to come together and reach theological consensus?). Instead we have scandals like the United Methodist Church (that I grew up in) recently voting to allow practicing homosexual clergy, and all mainline Protestant denominations favoring abortion.
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51:08 another critique that is is levied at the council is that Vatican 1 had a strongly disproportionate number of Italian bishops and the Italian

Shortly before the fourth public session a large number of the bishops of the minority left Rome with the permission of the directing officers of the council. They did not oppose the dogma of papal infallibility itself, but were against its definition as inopportune.
That’s not a theological disagreement, but one regarding the timing and prudence of declaring the dogma at that time. This was cardinal  Newman’s position. He agreed with the doctrine (from long before the council, actually, as I have written about) but thought it was inopportune. But when he saw the definition, he was pleased with it and saw God’s providence at work. It’s also my position on declaring Mary Mediatrix of all graces. I think it’s too early, while I firmly believe in the doctrine and vigorously defend it as traditional and biblical. The old article continues, showing exactly who disagreed:
Only a few bishops appear to have had doubts as to the dogma itself. Both parties sought to gain the victory for their opinions. . . . Most of the German and Austro-Hungarian members of the council were against the definition, as well as nearly half of the American and about one-third of the French fathers. About 7 of the Italian bishops, 2 each of the English and Irish bishops, 3 bishops from British North America, and 1 Swiss bishop, Greith, belonged to the minority. While only a few Armenian bishops opposed the definition, most of the Chaldean and Greek Melchites sided with the minority. It had no opponents among the bishops from Spain, Portugal, Belgium, Holland, and Central and South America. The most prominent members of the minority from the United States were Archbishops Kenrick of St. Louis and Purcell of Cincinnati, and Bishop Vérot of St. Augustine; these were joined by Archbishop Connolly of Halifax, Nova Scotia. Prominent members of the majority were Archbishop Spalding of Baltimore, Bishops Williams of Boston, Wood of Philadelphia, and Conroy of Albany.
I would speculate, prima facie, that opposition may have been to some degree due to Protestant cultural and religious influence in Germany and America, and by theological liberalism in France. After all, bishops from countries that had never been Protestant, like Spain, Portugal, and nations in Central and South America, were unanimously in favor. Jordan claimed that English bishops were among “the most critical” due to coming from a “constitutional” nation. But in fact only two English bishops were opposed.

51:48  so the the criticism at the time is that essentially the pope stacked the deck with all the people that are going to agree with him and so he already made this decision. Infallibility is going to become a dogma of the church and in order to do that he basically decides that he needs to appoint those Bishops to make this decision who are going to affirm the decision that he has already made.

As shown, the overwhelming nature of the vote shows this to be a most inaccurate and cynical point of view. It just doesn’t fly. Virtually no one disagreed with the theological rationale. At least 60 who voted against it did so thinking it was not the right time (as opposed to it being a false doctrine). That’s a completely legitimate discussion to have, but it’s not theological or doctrinal. It’s about prudence and when to do what in the Church.

55:34 you have John Henry Newman who’s at least privately very skeptical of this dogma and does not want it to be declared dogma . . . 

The latter is true but the former is absolutely not true, as I have meticulously documented from his own words. He believed in the doctrine even before he became a Catholic:

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St. Cardinal Newman wrote in 1843, 27 years before the council and definition, two years before he even became a Catholic:
In June and July 1839, near four years ago, I read the Monophysite Controversy, and it made a deep impression on me, which I was not able to shake off, that the Pope had a certain gift of infallibility, and that communion with the See of Rome was the divinely intended means of grace and illumination. . . . Since that, all history, particularly that of Arianism, has appeared to me in a new light; confirmatory of the same doctrine. (Letter to John Keble, 4 May 1843; referring to his views in July 1839)
He made many such statements — including lots of private ones — prior to 1870:
As to the Infallibility of the Pope, I see nothing against it, or to dread in it,. . . (Letter to Edward B. Pusey, 17 November 1865)
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As to writing a volume on the Pope’s infallibility, it never so much as entered into my thoughts. . . . And I should have nothing to say about it. I have ever thought it likely to be true, never thought it certain. I think too, its definition inexpedient and unlikely; but I should have no difficulty accepting it, were it made. And I don’t think my reason will ever go forward or backward in the matter. (Letter to William G. Ward, 18 February 1866)
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Applying this principle to the Pope’s Infallibility, . . . I think there is a good deal of evidence, on the very surface of history and the Fathers in its favour. On the whole then I hold it; . . . (Letter to Edward B. Pusey, 23 March 1867)
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I hold the Pope’s Infallibility, not as a dogma, but as a theological opinion; that is, not as a certainty, but as a probability. . . . To my mind the balance of probabilities is still in favour of it. There are vast difficulties, taking facts as they are, in the way of denying it. . . . Anyhow the doctrine of Papal Infallibility must be fenced round and limited by conditions. (Letter to Peter le Page Renouf, 21 June 1868)
Then when the dogma was promulgated, this is what Newman wrote about it:
I saw the new Definition yesterday, and am pleased at its moderation—that is, if the doctrine in question is to be defined at all. The terms are vague and comprehensive; and, personally, I have no difficulty in admitting it. (Letter to the Duke of Norfolk, ch. 8, 1875; Letter to Ambrose Phillipps de Lisle, 24 July 1870)
So much for the Newman mythology that is almost always part of Protestant analyses of this topic and Vatican I.
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Photo credit: First Vatican Council, contemporary painting, c. 1870 [source] [public domain / Wikimedia Commons]

Summary: Lutheran apologist Jordan Cooper makes an analysis of various aspects of Vatican I in 1870 and its declaration of the dogma of papal infallibility. I counter-respond with facts.

2024-06-14T11:39:04-04:00

And James Swan’s Unwarranted Conclusion from Luther’s Sermon, That He Was Accusing Her of Sin

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Martin Luther’s words will be in blue.

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Anti-Catholic Reformed Protestant James Swan wrote an article entitled, “Luther: Mary Sinned” (2-16-06). He drew from Martin Luther’s second sermon on the First Sunday After Epiphany (1525), on Luke 2:41-52 (from Complete Sermons of Martin Luther, Volume 1, Michigan: Baker Books, 2000). What he cites from it, however, doesn’t support his contention that Luther was claiming that Mary sinned:

32. . . .  you can see here how they err and falter, not only in this that they seek Christ and know not where to find him until they accidentally come to the temple, but also that they could not understand these words with which he censured their ignorance and is compelled to say to them: “Knew ye not, that I must be in the things of my Father?” 

39. To this we should reply as is taught in this Gospel: Be they called holy, learned, fathers, councils, or any other name, even though they were Mary, Joseph and all the saints it does not follow that they could not have erred and made mistakes. For here you learn that the mother of Christ though she possessed great intelligence and enlightenment, showed great ignorance in that she did not know where to find Christ, and in consequence was censured by him because she did not know what she should have known.

46. . . .  And although she had been sanctified by the Holy Spirit; yet he permitted her at times to err, even in the important matters of faith.

Why Swan concluded this is a deep, unfathomable mystery, since, first of all, mere ignorance in and of itself is not a sin (Acts 3:17; 17:30). Only obstinate or intransigent ignorance is (Eph 4:18). Luther in the above excerpts was discussing lack of knowledge, or ignorance. He stated in section 33: “God led her in such a way that he concealed much from her and daily permitted many things to happen which she had not known beforehand.”

Secondly, in the same sermon, Luther stated not just once, but twice, that he was not accusing Mary of sin (my italics):

13. Yea, though it may not be a matter of open sin, the devil can make sin of that which is no sin, and so move and terrify the heart that it will plague itself with the thought: . . . 

22. . . . So here, the mother of Christ was forced to contend, even till the third day, with a heavy heart, which accused her as if she had lost the Son of God, a sin the like of which no one else on earth had committed, and she had to fear only the Most High; and yet truly there was no such sin, nor wrath, nor disfavor.

Luther in section 5 also stated that Mary was “greatly blessed with all grace and was a beautiful temple of the holy God.” And in section 33: “he guided and sustained her by his grace, although he had endowed her with many far greater gifts than others.”

Swan wants to constantly lecture Catholics about context in Luther’s writings (saying that we continually neglect it), yet he completely botches that aspect in his vapid analysis in this article? It’s laughable.

Luther does, however, accuse the Blessed Virgin Mary of an unseemly doubt and lack of faith, and I contend that this is absurd and completely unfounded, based on what we know from Luke 2. He projects onto her (and onto St. Paul elsewhere in his writings) the gargantuan and existential struggles with faith that he himself experienced, and this is completely unfounded and based on nothing but his own well-documented internal psychological turmoil and wrestling with recurring depression. Let’s take a look at the biblical passage in play:

Luke 2:42-50 (RSV) And when he was twelve years old, they went up according to custom; [43] and when the feast was ended, as they were returning, the boy Jesus stayed behind in Jerusalem. His parents did not know it, [44] but supposing him to be in the company they went a day’s journey, and they sought him among their kinsfolk and acquaintances; [45] and when they did not find him, they returned to Jerusalem, seeking him. [46] After three days they found him in the temple, sitting among the teachers, listening to them and asking them questions; [47] and all who heard him were amazed at his understanding and his answers. [48] And when they saw him they were astonished; and his mother said to him, “Son, why have you treated us so? Behold, your father and I have been looking for you anxiously.” [49] And he said to them, “How is it that you sought me? Did you not know that I must be in my Father’s house?” [50] And they did not understand the saying which he spoke to them.

I don’t think this is much of a big deal at all. Mary and Joseph were simply perplexed. So they asked, “why have you treated us so?” They didn’t understand. And I’m sure they would have been the first to admit that they wouldn’t always fully understand God the Son. They were simply worried about the whereabouts of their son. If parents didn’t worry in some strong sense about their children, when there was sufficient cause, I submit that they would be negligent, irresponsible parents. The passage doesn’t show Mary as a sinner, but rather, as a very human, normal, concerned parent, as all parents should be. We wouldn’t expect anything less of the Immaculate Mother of God.

Any parent — and I think, anyone, period, to a lesser extent — would immediately understand the emotional dynamics of the story, and Mary being sinless or Jesus being God doesn’t make the reaction any different (just as Jesus felt agonized anxiety in Gethsemane). Mary was a human being with emotions, just like the rest of us, and she experienced the especially intense and excruciating feelings of a mother looking for her “lost” child. I think once one realizes this, her recorded reaction is seen to be extraordinarily mild. Sin isn’t within a universe’s distance to it. This is ultra-normal parental emotions: as far from sin as the east is to the west. Thus, Luther wrote in ection 6:

For let us think for a moment, how she must have felt and grieved. Every father and mother can easily understand the misery and sorrow caused by the unavoidable separation from a dear child, when they know only that the child is lost. And even if the separation should last only an hour, how great are not the sorrow and lamentation, and how many tears are not shed, without consolation, without strength to eat, drink, sleep or rest, and with such misery that they would prefer to die. How much greater the suffering, if this condition were to continue for a day and a night, or even longer, when each hour must seem like a hundred years!

Nor does it necessarily follow at all that Jesus’ usual provocative and rhetorical (indeed, even “socratic”) questioning is implying sin on Mary’s part. He was simply challenging them to realize that He was anticipating His mission to come. Jesus was routinely misunderstood by almost everyone, including (quite often, before Pentecost) His own disciples (Mk 4:13; 6:52; 9:32; Lk 9:45; Jn 12:16). We should fully expect this, since He was the incarnate God, after all, Whose “ways” and “thoughts” are “higher” than ours, “as the heavens are higher than the earth” (Is 55:9).

It’s foolish to rush in and assume it’s because they were rebuked for sin: whether Mary is involved or anyone else. It’s mere rash speculation. This is an attempt to tear down the usual understanding of biblical passages by using a hyper-rationalistic, theologically liberal approach: truth be told. It’s an attitude of relentless skepticism, which is counter to a robust Christian faith. These are the sorts of questions that skeptical, Spirit-deprived atheists cynically ask about biblical texts (I know: I have dealt with such questions at great length).

But there is a further factor to consider, that classic Protestant commentaries (on Luke 2:44) have brought up:

Ellicott’s Commentary for English Readers:
Supposing him to have been in the company.—The company was probably a large one, consisting of those who had come up to keep the Passover from Nazareth and the neighbouring villages. It is not certain, but in the nature of things it is sufficiently probable, that the boys of such a company congregated together, and travelled apart from the others.
Barnes’ Notes on the Bible:
Supposing him to have been in the company . . .
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1. In going to these great feasts, families and neighbors would join together, and form a large collection.
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2. It is not improbable that Jesus was “with” them when they were about to start from Jerusalem and were making preparations. Seeing him then, they might have been certain as to his presence.
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3. A part of the company might have left before the others, and Joseph and Mary may have supposed that he was with them, until they overtook them at night and ascertained their mistake.
Expositor’s Greek Testament:
A company would be made up of people from the same neighbourhood, well acquainted with one another. . . . It is quite conceivable how they should have gone on so long without missing the boy, . . .
Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges:
In the numerous and rejoicing caravans of kinsmen and fellow-countrymen relations are often separated without feeling any anxiety.
This plausible theory fits in well with Luke 2:44. Mary and Joseph assumed Jesus was in the larger “company” of travelers (extended family and friends, per the above commentaries) after “a day’s journey.” But He wasn’t, because He had remained in the temple. They figured out that He wasn’t with them: not even in a possible second group of young cousins and acquaintances, and so they set back to Jerusalem (2:45), which would have taken another day. Thus, the search that took “three days” (2:46) likely, I think, included the day’s journey out, another day back (checking for Him in groups that were leaving Jerusalem, that they passed in their return), and a day looking for Him in Jerusalem. None of this is in the least implausible and it need not include sin at all.
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But Luther takes it to another surreal level, with all sorts of speculations about Mary’s internal psyche and thoughts that have no basis whatsoever in the biblical text. Here are examples of that in the same (second) sermon on Luke 2:

8. The affliction and suffering she was compelled to endure were not of a nature that they had occurred without her fault, but her conscience forced her to remember how God had entrusted the child to her and that no one else was accountable for him, and hence storms burst and thundered in her heart: Behold, thou hast lost the child. This is no one’s fault but thine own; for thou shouldst have waited on him and looked after him, and not permitted him for a moment to go out of thy sight. How wilt thou give an account of this before God, since thou hast failed to watch over him? This is the result of sin and thou art no longer worthy to be his mother; yea, thou hast deserved to be condemned by him before all people, inasmuch as he has conferred on thee the great honor and favor of choosing thee for his mother.

9. Should not her heart have failed and fainted here from anxiety, for two reasons? First, because she lost her son and was unable to find him; secondly, which was the most severe of all and which could not happen to other mothers, making the pain all the more severe, because she must abhor herself before God, the only Father of the child, that he would no longer have or regard her as his mother, and hence she must be more sorrowful and sad at heart than any other woman on earth. In her own heart she regards herself guilty of the same sin as Eve, the first mother, who brought the whole human race to ruin. For what are all sins compared with this one, that she has neglected and lost this child, the Son of God and the Savior of the World? And if he should not be found, or, since he could not be lost, if God should have taken him back to himself, she would be the cause of preventing the completion of the work of the redemption of the world. Such and doubtless many other thoughts filled her heart with great fear, especially since she, as a pious child of God, had a very tender heart and conscience.

10. Here you may see how God dealt with the most holy person, the mother of his Son, even though she had been most highly honored by him and her joy in her Son had been immeasurably great, such as no mother ever had; and yet God so assailed her and she must be so divested of her honor and comfort that she cannot say, I am the mother of the Son. Previously she had been exalted to heaven, now she has been suddenly cast into deepest hell and is in such terror and sorrow that she might have despaired and died, and have wished that she had never seen the child, nor heard of him; and thus she might have committed a more grievous sin than any other person ever committed. . . . 

18. Therefore, this holy Virgin was a real martyr for three days, and these days were heavier to her than was the external pain of martyrdom to other saints. She had had such anxiety on her Son’s account that she could not have suffered any more bitter pain, For that is the greatest torture and woe, when the heart is attacked and tortured. All other sufferings that assail the body are more endurable; yea, amid them the heart can be joyful and can scorn all bodily suffering, as we read concerning St. Agnes and other martyrs. That is only half-suffering when the body alone is afflicted, while the heart and soul remain full of joy; but when the heart alone is compelled to endure suffering only great and noble spirits, and special grace and strength, are able to endure it.

And in his first sermon on the same topic, Luther opined:

6. The great sorrow of the mother of Christ, who was deprived of her child, came upon her in order that even her trust in God might be taken from her. For she had reason to fear that God was angry with her and would no longer have her to be the mother of his Son. Nobody will understand what she suffered who has not passed through similar experiences. Therefore we should apply this example to ourselves, for it was not recorded for her sake, but for our benefit. She is now at the end of her sorrows; therefore we should profit by her example and be prepared to bear our sorrow if a similar affliction befall us.

7. When God vouchsafes to us a strong faith and a firm trust in him, so that we are assured he is our gracious God and we can depend upon him, then we are in paradise. But when God permits our hearts to be discouraged and we believe that he takes from us Christ our Lord; when our conscience feels that we have lost him and amidst trembling and despair our confidence is gone, then we are truly in misery and distress. For even if we are not conscious of any special sin, yet in such a condition we tremble and doubt whether God still cares for us; just as Mary here doubts and knows not whether God still deems her worthy to be the mother of his Son. Our heart thinks in the time of trial thus: God has indeed given me a strong faith, but perhaps he will take it from me and will no longer want me as his child. Only strong minds can endure such temptations and there are not many people whom God tests to this degree. Yet we must be prepared, so that we may not despair if such trials should come upon us.

It’s just Luther projecting his tumultuous inner strife onto Mary: as if everyone in their trials goes through the existential, Chicken Little angst that he habitually experienced.

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Photo credit: Saint Raphael Catholic Church (Springfield, Ohio) – stained glass, Wedding at Cana – detail (Nheyob11-22-14) [Wikimedia Commons / Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike 4.0 International license]

Summary: Anti-Catholic Protestant polemicist James Swan contended that Luther said Mary sinned, in a sermon on Luke 2. He did not, but he also said some very weird things about Mary.

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