March 5, 2024

Incl. Bible-Tradition Relationship; Fathers & Conciliar Infallibility; Popes & Early Councils; Perspicuity (Luther vs. Erasmus); Communion in One Kind; “Late” & Supposedly Unbiblical Dogmas

Rev. Dr. Jordan B. Cooper is a Lutheran pastor, adjunct professor of Systematic Theology, Executive Director of the popular Just & Sinner YouTube channel, and the President of the American Lutheran Theological Seminary (which holds to a doctrinally traditional Lutheranism, similar to the Lutheran Church – Missouri Synod). He has authored several books, as well as theological articles in a variety of publications. All my Bible citations are from RSV, unless otherwise indicated. Jordan’s words will be in blue.

This is my 7th reply to Jordan (many more to come, because I want to interact with the best, most informed Protestant opponents). All of these respectful critiques can be found in the “Replies to Lutheran Theologian / Apologist Jordan Cooper” section on the top of my Lutheranism web page.

*****

This is a response to the first 40 minutes of Jordan’s YouTube video, Sola Scriptura: Scripture Alone (The Five Solas) (2-24-24).

13:54 what we see is that the earliest Christians do use language of tradition but when they define tradition, they’re defining tradition really as things that are also clearly taught within the word of God, not not some kind of separate dogma or separate theological claims that have no basis in the word of God.

There is a middle position (which is the Catholic one). The fathers, I contend, adhered to a three-legged-stool rule of faith: Bible / Tradition / Church, in which all operate in non-contradictory harmony with each other. Martin Luther appeared to accept something like this:

I do enough if I prove that it is not contrary to God’s Word, but consistent with Scripture. (That These Words of Christ, This Is My Body, etc., Still Stand Firm Against the Fanatics, March 1527, Luther’s Works, vol. 37)

In almost all cases, Scripture can be brought to bear. But in a few instances, beliefs that are not explicit in Scripture, such as, for example, infant baptism, were accepted as true on the basis of the authority of the Church and apostolic tradition and succession (in complete opposition to sola Scriptura). This was St. Augustine’s view, and he also wrote more generally:

[T]here are many things which are observed by the whole Church, and therefore are fairly held to have been enjoined by the apostles, which yet are not mentioned in their writings. (On Baptism, v, 23, 31)

Likewise, Luther wrote about infant baptism:

We, however, are certain enough, because it [infant baptism] is nowhere contrary to Scripture, but is rather in accord with Scripture. (Concerning Rebaptism, Jan. 1528, Luther’s Works, vol. 40)

[C]hild baptism derives from the apostles and has been practiced since the days of the apostles. . . . It came to me by tradition and I was persuaded by no word of Scripture that it was wrong. . . . Baptism did not originate with us, but with the apostles and we should not discard or alter what cannot be discarded or altered on clear scriptural authority. . . . Were child baptism now wrong God would certainly not have permitted it to continue so long, nor let it become so universally and thoroughly established in all Christendom, but it would sometime have gone down in disgrace. . . . Just as God has established that Christians in all the world have accepted the Bible as Bible, the Lord’s Prayer as Lord’s Prayer, and faith of a child as faith, so also he has established child baptism and kept it from being rejected . . . You say, this does not prove that child baptism is certain. For there is no passage in Scripture for it. My answer: that is true. From Scripture we cannot clearly conclude that you could establish child baptism as a practice among the first Christians after the apostles. But you can well conclude that in our day no one may reject or neglect the practice of child baptism which has so long a tradition, since God actually not only has permitted it, but from the beginning so ordered, that it has not yet disappeared. (Ibid.)

Here, Luther accepts infant baptism based on ancient tradition, and states outright that “there is no passage in Scripture for it.” Therefore, he has accepted a principle utterly contrary to sola Scriptura; namely, that something can be regarded as infallibly true, not on the basis of Scripture, but rather, apostolic tradition. Sola Scriptura holds that only Scripture is such an infallible authority. Augustine and Luther in these excerpts also contradict Jordan’s claim above. Luther felt so strongly about infant baptism, that he and his successor Philip Melanchthon consented to executing Anabaptists for denying it (a doctrine and practice not even explicitly biblical).

17:10 Read Athanasius’s works against the Arians; he is just expositing Scripture. He’s looking at the text trying to explain the text, trying to demonstrate how the text shows his point.

Of course, the Bible will be his primary argument. No one is denying that in the first place. Refuting Jehovah’s Witnesses (modern-day Arians) was, in fact, my first major apologetics endeavor, back in 1981-1984 (the product of that research is on my blog today). I argued against them almost always from Scripture. I was a Protestant then. Now that I am Catholic I would do the same thing if I set out to refute them.  This doesn’t prove that Athanasius had a Protestant rule of faith (nor that I do now; I argue from Scripture virtually every day in my apologetics writing). St. Athanasius also accepted the infallible authority of ecumenical councils, contrary to sola Scriptura:

. . . the Synod which was held at Nicæa. For the Faith there confessed by the Fathers according to the divine Scriptures is enough by itself at once to overthrow all impiety, and to establish the religious belief in Christ. . . . a monument of victory over all heresy, but especially the Arian, . . . (Letter #59 to Epictetus, 1)

17:59  the foundation of the argument is always the text of Scripture and other figures or authorities are used secondarily.

Largely, yes, but not always (and Jordan used the word “always” and attempted to make a universal claim. St. Basil the Great thought that the Nicene Council was infallible, and arguably inspired as well:

. . . you should confess the faith put forth by our Fathers once assembled at Nicæa, that you should not omit any one of its propositions, but bear in mind that the three hundred and eighteen who met together without strife did not speak without the operation of the Holy Ghost, . . .  (Letter #114 to Cyriacus, at Tarsus)

St. Gregory Nazianzen appeared to believe the same:

I never have and never can honour anything above the Nicene Faith, that of the Holy Fathers who met there to destroy the Arian heresy; but am, and by God’s help ever will be, of that faith; . . . (Letter #102: Second to Cledonius the Priest, Against Apollinarius)

As did St. Cyril of Alexandria:

[H]e opposes the truth and the very symbol of the Church’s Faith, which the fathers once gathered together at Nicea through the illumination of the Spirit defined; he, fearing lest any should keep whole the Faith, instructed unto the Truth by their words, endeavours to calumniate it and alters the significance of the words, . . . against the holy fathers who have decreed for us the pious definition of the Faith which we have as an anchor of the soul both sure and steadfast, as it is written. (Tomes Against Nestorius: I, 5)

. . . the holy Churches in every region under Heaven, and the venerable Fathers themselves who put forth unto us the definition of the right and undefiled Faith, viz. (the Holy Ghost speaking in them) that the Word of God was made flesh and became Man, . . .(Tomes Against Nestorius: IV, 2)

19:00 The other thing that I think really important here is . . . the question of how is it that the church looked at the councils. If you look at something like the Council of Nicaea, the question is: did the church at the time believe that the Senate of Nicaea was necessarily the final arbiter of what was actually true? . . . It’s not the understanding at the time that whatever happened in this Council was necessarily declaratively true forever because of the authority of a church Council.

My citations above regarding Nicaea, from four Church fathers, contradict Jordan’s “take.” Sola Scriptura requires a denial of the infallibility of ecumenical councils. But many Church fathers agree with the high Catholic view of such councils.

20:13 the bishop of Rome actually doesn’t have really any significant role within the Council of Nicaea at all.

A plausible case can be made that he did:

Pope Silvester and the Council of Nicaea [August 1997]

Council of Nicea: Reply to James White: Its Relationship to Pope Sylvester, Athanasius’ Views, & the Unique Preeminence of Catholic Authority. [4-2-07]

20:19 It’s not really until Pope Leo with Caledon that the bishop of Rome has any significant say within these ecumenical councils.

Constantinople, 381 [no pope and no legates]

No bishops from the west were present, nor was the Pope represented. Therefore, this was not really an ecumenical council, though due to later historical confusion and the enthusiastic acceptance by the whole Church of its strongly orthodox creed, including an explicit confession of the full divinity of the Holy Spirit, it came to be regarded and numbered as such. (Dr. Warren Carroll, The Building of Christendom, Christendom College Press, 1987, 62)

With the First Council of Constantinople (381) we are dealing with another case in which there are not extant acts. This council also was convoked by an emperor, Theodosius I. [Ibid.] The language of his decree suggests he regarded the Roman see as a yardstick of Christian orthodoxy. He commands all his subjects to practice the religion which Peter the apostle transmitted to the Romans. In calling the Council, Theodosius did not envisage the assembled bishops debating Roman doctrine as thought it were an open question.

The fact that Meletius of Antioch presided at Constantinople I, and the absence of any Roman legates, might appear to be evidence against the Roman primacy. It must be remembered that the Council was not originally intended to be ecumenical in the same sense as Nicaea.

It included, after all, only 150 bishops from Thrace, Asia Minor, and Egypt and was convoked to deal with certain Eastern problems.[New Catholic Encyclopedia, s.v. “Constantinople, First Council of.”] In fact, it was not recognized as ecumenical by the Council of Ephesus half a century later, and it was left to Pope Gregory the Great to elevate it to that status. (“Papal Authority at the Earliest Councils,” Brian W. Harrison, This Rock, Jan. 1991)

Ephesus, 431 [papal legates Arcadius, Projectus, and Philip]

The pope . . . sent two bishops, Arcadius and Projectus, to represent himself and his Roman council, and the Roman priest, Philip, as his personal representative. Philip, therefore, takes the first place, though, not being a bishop, he could not preside. It was probably a matter of course that the Patriarch of Alexandria should be president. The legates were directed not to take part in the discussions, but to give judgment on them. It seems that Chalcedon, twenty years later, set the precedent that the papal legates should always be technically presidents at an ecumenical council, and this was henceforth looked upon as a matter of course, and Greek historians assumed that it must have been the case at Nicaea. (Catholic Encyclopedia: “Council of Ephesus”; written by John Chapman)

21:28 when you look at something like . . . indulgences you really have no scriptural basis.
*
*
30:33 Luther . . .  has a really great discussion of this question at the beginning of [his 1525 book] The Bondage of the Will, where [he]  addresses Erasmus . . . he has a really great discussion of this and the fact that Scripture defines itself as a light which enlightens our path. It’s not just this obscure book that nobody can really understand without a proper theological degree or without the necessary authoritative tradition, as is passed down within the canons of the Roman tradition.
*
I’m delighted that Jordan brought this up. I have researched this very thing (way back in 2009), along with many other teachings of Luther. Why don’t we be fair and see how Erasmus responded? In other words, examine both sides for a change. . .? But first, at 30:46. Jordan stated that “Luther is maybe a little too harsh to Erasmus at some point . . .” Indeed. Here are some examples from his aforementioned book (from the 1823 Edward Thomas Vaughan translation; available online):
*
[Y]ou only show that you are nourishing in your heart a Lucian, or some other hog of the Epicurean sty, who, having no belief at all of a God himself, laughs in his sleeve at all those who believe and confess one. (pt. 1)
*
Assuredly, any Jew or Heathen, who had no knowledge at all of Christ, would find it easy enough to draw out such a pattern of faith as yours. You do not mention Christ in a single jot of it; . . .  (Pt. I)
*
[Y]our words sound as though, like Epicurus, you accounted the word of God and a future state to be mere fables . . . (Pt. I)
*
Nice ecumenical thoughts there, huh? But this was usually what happened whenever anyone refuted Luther. Luther wrote about interpretation of Scripture in the section of his book, “Erasmus’ Skepticism” (I cite the 1823 Henry Cole translation):
*
What say you, Erasmus? Is it not enough that you submit your opinion to the Scriptures? Do you submit it to the decrees of the church also? What can the church decree, that is not decreed in the Scriptures? If it can, where then remains the liberty and power of judging those who make the decrees? As Paul, I Cor. xiv., teaches “Let others judge.” Are you not pleased that there should be any one to judge the decrees of the church, which, nevertheless, Paul enjoins? What new kind of religion and humility is this, that, by our own example, you would take away from us the power of judging the decrees of men, and give it unto men without judgment? Where does the Scripture of God command us to do this? . . .

This is the distinction which I make; that I also may act a little the rhetorician and logician – God, and the Scripture of God, are two things; no less so than God, and the Creature of God. That there are in God many hidden things which we know not, no one doubts: as He himself saith concerning the last day: “Of that day knoweth no man but the Father.” (Matt. xxiv. 36.) And (Acts i. 7.) “It is not yours to know the times and seasons.” And again, “I know whom I have chosen,” (John xiii. 18.) And Paul, “The Lord knoweth them that are His,” (2 Tim. ii. 19.). And the like.

But, that there are in the Scriptures some things abstruse, and that all things are not quite plain, is a report spread abroad by the impious Sophists by whose mouth you speak here, Erasmus. But they never have produced, nor ever can produce, one article whereby to prove this their madness. And it is with such scare-crows that Satan has frightened away men from reading the Sacred Writings, and has rendered the Holy Scripture contemptible, that he might cause his poisons of philosophy to prevail in the church. This indeed I confess, that there are many places in the Scriptures obscure and abstruse; not from the majesty of the thing, but from our ignorance of certain terms and grammatical particulars; but which do not prevent a knowledge of all the things in the Scriptures. . . .

All the things, therefore, contained in the Scriptures; are made manifest, although some places, from the words not being understood, are yet obscure. But to know that all things in the Scriptures are set in the clearest light, and then, because a few words are obscure, to report that the things are obscure, is absurd and impious. And, if the words are obscure in one place, yet they are clear in another. But, however, the same thing, which has been most openly declared to the whole world, is both spoken of in the Scriptures in plain words, and also still lies hidden in obscure words. Now, therefore, it matters not if the thing be in the light, whether any certain representations of it be in obscurity or not, if, in the mean while, many other representations of the same thing be in the light. For who would say that the public fountain is not in the light, because those who are in some dark narrow lane do not see it, when all those who are in the Open market place can see it plainly?

Sect. IV.—WHAT you adduce, therefore, about the darkness of the Corycian cavern, amounts to nothing; matters are not so in the Scriptures. For those things which are of the greatest majesty, and the most abstruse mysteries, are no longer in the dark corner, but before the very doors, nay, brought forth and manifested openly. For Christ has opened our understanding to understand the Scriptures, Luke xxiv. 45. And the Gospel is preached to every creature. (Mark xvi. 15, Col. i. 23.) “Their sound is gone out into all the earth.” (Psalm xix. 4.) And “All things that are written, are written for our instruction.” (Rom. xv. 4.) And again, “All Scripture is inspired from above, and is profitable for instruction.” (2 Tim. iii. 16.) . . .

Let, therefore, wretched men cease to impute, with blasphemous perverseness, the darkness and obscurity of their own heart to the all-clear Scriptures of God. . . .

[T]he Spirit is required to understand the whole of the Scripture and every part of it. If you speak of the external clearness, nothing whatever is left obscure or ambiguous; but all things that are in the Scriptures, are by the Word brought forth into the clearest light, and proclaimed to the whole world.

Now let’s look at how Erasmus responded, with regard to Holy Scripture. I cite from Peter Macardle and Clarence H. Miller, translators, Charles Trinkhaus, editor, Collected Works of Erasmus, Vol. 76: Controversies: De Libero Arbitrio / Hyperaspistes I, Univ. of Toronto Press, 1999 (I have a hardcover copy in my library):
*
But if knowledge of grammar alone removes all obscurity from Sacred Scripture, how did it happen that St. Jerome, who knew all the languages, was so often at a loss and had to labour mightily to explain the prophets? Not to mention some others, among whom we find even Augustine, in whom you place some stock. Why is it that you yourself, who cannot use ignorance of languages as an excuse, are sometimes at a loss in explicating the psalms, testifying that you are following something you have dreamed up in your own mind, without condemning the opinions of others? . . . Finally, why do your ‘brothers’ disagree so much with one another? They all have the same Scripture, they all claim the same spirit. And yet Karlstadt disagrees with you violently. So do Zwingli and Oecolampadius and Capito, who approve of Karlstadt’s opinion though not of his reasons for it. Then again Zwingli and Balthazar are miles apart on many points. To say nothing of images, which are rejected by others, but defended by you, not to mention the rebaptism rejected by your followers but preached by others, and passing over in silence the fact that secular studies are condemned by others but defended by you. Since you are all treating the subject matter of Scripture, if there is no obscurity in it, why is there so much disagreement among you? On this point there is no reason for you to rail at the wretched sophists: Augustine teaches that obscurity sometimes arises from unknown or ambiguous words, sometimes from the nature of the subject matter, at times from allegories and figures of speech, at times from passages which contradict one another, at least according to what the language seems to say. [De doctrina christiana 2.6.7, 2.9.15] And he gives the reason why God wished such obscurity to find a place in the Sacred Books. [De doctrina christiana 4.8.22] (pp. 130-131)
*
Furthermore, where you challenge me and all the sophists to bring forward even one obscure or recondite passage from the Sacred Books which you cannot show is quite clear, I only wish you could make good on your promise! We will bring to you heaps of difficulties and we will forgive you for calling us blinder than a bat, provided you clearly explicate the places where we are at a loss. But if you impose on us the law that we believe that whatever your interpretation is, that is what Scripture means, your associates will not put up with such a law and they stoutly cry out against you, affirming that you interpret Scripture wrongly about the Eucharist. Hence it is not right that we should grant you more authority than is granted by the principal associates of your confession. (p. 132)
*
But still, if I were growing weary of this church, as I wavered in perplexity, tell me, I beg you in the name of the gospel, where would you have me go? To that disintegrated congregation of yours, that totally dissected sect? Karlstadt has raged against you, and you in turn against him. And the dispute was not simply a tempest in a teapot but concerned a very serious matter. Zwingli and Oecolampadius have opposed your opinion in many volumes. And some of the leaders of your congregation agree with them, among whom is Capito. Then too what an all-out battles was fought by Balthazar and Zwingli! I am not even sure that there in that tiny little town you agree among yourselves very well. Here your disciples openly taught that the humanities are the bane of godliness, and no languages are to be learned except a bit of Greek and Hebrew, that Latin should be entirely ignored. There were those who would eliminate baptism and those who would repeat it; and there was no lack of those who persecute them for it. In some places images of the saints suffered a dire fate; you came to their rescue. When you book about reforming education was published, they said that the spirit had left you and that you were beginning to write in a human spirit opposed to the gospel, and they maintained you did it to please Melanchthon. A tribe of prophets has risen up there with whom you have engaged in most bitter conflict. Finally, just as every day new dogmas appear among you, so at the same time new quarrels arise. And you demand that no one should disagree with you, although you disagree so much among yourselves about matters of the greatest importance! (pp. 143-144)
*
Certainly no one after the apostles claimed that there was no mystery in Scripture that was not clear to him. (pp. 153-154)

You stipulate that we should not ask for or accept anything but Holy Scripture, but you do it in such a way as to require that we permit you to be its sole interpreter, renouncing all others. Thus the victory will be yours if we allow you to be not the steward but the lord of Holy Scripture. (pp. 204-205)

We were talking about your spirit and that of your followers, who profess that there is nothing in Holy Scripture which is obscure to you as long as you know grammar, and we demanded that you establish the credibility of this certainty, which you still fail to do, try as you may. (p. 219)

[I]n Acts, when Paul had taught and admonished them, they compared the scriptural passages with what had been carried out and what had been propounded to them; and there was much they would not have understood if the apostle had not supplied this additional light. Therefore I am not making the passages obscure, but rather God himself wanted there to be some obscurity in them, but in such a way that there would be enough light for the eternal salvation of everyone if he used his eyes and grace was there to help. No one denies that there is truth as clear as crystal in Holy Scripture, but sometimes it is wrapped and covered up by figures and enigmas so that it needs scrutiny and an interpreter, either because God wanted in this way to arouse us from dullness and also to set us to work, as Augustine says, or because truth is more pleasant and affects us more deeply when it has been dug out and shines forth to us through the cover of darkness than if it had been exposed for anyone at all to see . . . (pp. 219-220)

If Holy Scripture is perfectly clear in all respects, where does this darkness among you come from, whence arise such fights to the death about the meaning of Holy Scripture? You prove from the mysteries of Scripture that the body of the Lord is in the Eucharist physically; from the same Scripture Zwingli, Oecolampadius, and Capito teach that it is only signified. (p. 222)

But if you attribute a total understanding of the Holy Scripture to the Holy Spirit, why do you make an exception only for the ignorance of grammar? In a matter of such importance will the Spirit allow grammar to stand in the way of man’s salvation? Since he did not hesitate to impart such riches of eternal wisdom, will he hesitate to impart grammar and common sense? (p. 239)

If you contend that there is no obscurity whatever in Holy Scripture, do not take up the matter with me but with all the orthodox Fathers, of whom there is none who does not preach the same thing as I do. (p. 242)

See my entire seven-part series, “Luther Meets His Match,” which documents this dispute, with Erasmus’ replies (and see more from this particular installment). Erasmus’ replies are generally not available online (I had to pay good money to purchase this book), whereas Luther’s Bondage of the Will is online. So, as usual, folks are usually far more familiar with Luther’s argument against Erasmus, than vice versa (most have never heard of this book from Erasmus). And that is rather one-sided, as I think fair-minded readers would agree.

Luther never responded to Erasmus’ 1526 work in reply to him, Hyperaspistes (“A Defensive Shield”). What a surprise . . . That would have made it a true debate, where both sides interact with each other and respond to counter-replies. Luther was scarcely even capable of that: at least not when he met his match with Erasmus (considered perhaps the greatest Christian scholar of his time), and was way over his head. He could rant and rave, rail and thunder, as he always eventually did in controversy (being a rather excitable sort), but he couldn’t overcome Erasmus’ reasoning, and so once that was fully laid out, he didn’t even try. At least he had wits enough to know when he was bested in debate.

See my related article, 25 Brief Arguments Regarding Biblical “Clearness” [2009].

37:03 What Rome has often done historically [is to] say, “look, when we’ve got a competition between Scripture as the Word of God and tradition we go with [tradition].” Here’s an example . . . communion in both kinds in the medieval church . . . this is a very very late development. There was a lot of superstition that developed around the sacrament of the Eucharist to such an extent that there was this fear of spilling the blood of Christ so that it was taught that only the priests should consume the blood of Christ and the lay person should not receive it at all.

First of all, how it is “superstition” to be concerned about what both sides agree is the Blood of Christ not spilling on the floor? I must confess that I have no idea what he means here, and it’s rather shocking. It seems to me that we can agree that Jesus’ Blood spilled on the ground is not a good thing. The medieval Church was concerned about that. Secondly, Jesus can’t be technically separated under symbols of wafer and wine. Jesus is present Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity in both of what were formerly bread and wine. No one need take my word for that. It’s biblical teaching:

1 Corinthians 11:27 Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the body and blood of the Lord.

Note the bolded “or” and “and.” The way that Paul phrases this proves that he believes that the Body and Blood are present in both species. It’s all in the word “or”. The logic and grammar require it, so that the above can also be expressed in the following two propositions:

Whoever, therefore, eats the bread of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the body and blood of the Lord.

Whoever, therefore, drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the body and blood of the Lord.

I’m glad both kinds are offered in the Catholic Church now, but there is no necessity to receive both, in order to receive Jesus Christ. I myself have received the cup, I think, two times in my entire 33-year Catholic life: when I was received into the Church and once when the consecrated hosts ran out during Mass. My practice has nothing to do with theology; it’s merely a “hygienic” objection. The Catholic Church makes no claim that no one will ever contract a germ, drinking from a common cup with scores or hundreds of others. In any event, no one is “missing” anything. I would throw this objection back onto Jordan, having explained our position, and ask him: what is worse: not receiving the chalice when the host contains all of Christ, or receiving no Body and Blood at all, as in Zwingli’s view, and that of most Protestants besides Lutherans?

Luther himself said he’d rather partake of the Holy Eucharist with Catholics, than drink “mere wine” with the Zwinglians and others who denied the Real Presence. He didn’t deny that Catholics were Christians, but he denied that Zwingli and his followers were. Thus, in light of these considerations, Jordan is majoring on the minors and knocking the Catholic Church, when the vast majority of his fellow Protestants don’t even believe they are truly receiving Jesus at all (and indeed they aren’t, and Catholics contend that Lutherans and the few Anglicans who still believe in Real Presence aren’t, either, since they broke the line of valid ordination). Which is the more important of the two things?

A Calvinist apologist wrote:

I openly challenge the Roman apologists to bring forth any example of a church father who says that after the consecration the bread is the blood of Christ (bolding his own)

I’m happy to oblige, by providing two examples of the logically equivalent converse: the cup described as Christ’s Body:

[W]hen the great prayers and the holy supplications are sent up to God, the Word descends upon the bread and the cup, and they become His body. (St. Athanasius, Sermon to the Newly Baptized, PG 26,1325)

So now repeatedly the bread and wine, sanctified by the Word (the sacred Benediction), is at the same time changed into the Body of that Word; and this Flesh is disseminated among all the Faithful. (St. Gregory of Nyssa, The Great Catechism, 37)

The Catholic Encyclopedia article, “Communion under Both Kinds” makes further biblical arguments and provides a detailed history of many instances in the early Church in which the cup or the host only was distributed, such as the faithful receiving at home (thus implying indirectly that both Body and Blood and the whole Christ were contained in either kind). Example:

It is recorded of St. Basil that he received Holy Communion several times on the day of his death, and under the species of bread alone, as may be inferred from the biographer’s words . . .  These testimonies are sufficient to establish the fact that, in the early centuries, reservation of the Eucharist for the sick and dying, of which the Council of Nicaea (325) speaks (can. xiii) as “the ancient and canonical rule”, was usual under one kind. The reservation of the species of wine for use as the Viaticum . . .  was never the general practice. . . .

I could also bring up the issue of adoration of the consecrated wafer and wine. If indeed Jesus Christ is truly present, then wouldn’t it follow that He should be adored in the sacrament?  That’s what Martin Luther — in consistency — thought:

Now to come back to the sacrament: he who does not believe that Christ’s body and blood are present does well not to worship either with his spirit or with his body. But he who does believe, as sufficient demonstration has shown it ought to be believed, can surely not withhold his adoration of the body and blood of Christ without sinning. For I must always confess that Christ is present when his body and blood are present. His words do not lie to me, and he is not separated from his body and blood. (The Adoration of the Sacrament, 1523, Luther’s Works, vol. 36)

[O]ne should not withhold from him such worship and adoration either . . . one should not condemn and accuse of heresy people who do adore the sacrament. For although Christ has not commanded it, neither has he forbidden it, but often accepted it. Free, free it must be, according as one is disposed in his heart and has opportunity. (Ibid.)

Lutherans do not, however, practice eucharistic adoration now. Why? Jesus is present, so why would they not worship Him? On what basis is the practice neglected? And is this not a far greater omission than merely partaking in one kind (when Jesus is fully present in both kinds)? Catholics worship Jesus in the consecrated elements and receive Him. Lutherans only do the second. Again, I ask: why? So they won’t be too much like Catholics?

Jordan is now almost two-thirds through his talk on sola Scriptura and he has scarcely defended it at all (so I had to change my title). Certainly nothing he has presented in the first 37 minutes presents undeniable arguments that sola Scriptura is true, and that only Scripture is an infallible authority in Christianity. But lots of potshots against the Catholic Church! This is a form of the old “your dad’s uglier than mine!” tactic. When some folks have insufficient arguments to make their own case, they go after the other guy and hope that no one notices.

37:47 This has no precedent in Scripture whatsoever. [When] Jesus talks about the sacrament what does he say?: “take eat, take drink” . . . 

I already mentioned 1 Corinthians 11:27, so there is indeed relevant Scripture. And the second claim isn’t true, either. In John 6:58, Jesus mentions eating His Flesh as salvation-giving, without mentioning drinking His Blood: “he who eats this bread will live for ever” (cf. 6:33, 50-51). Nice try, though.

38:27 here is a very clear example where you have the entirety of Scripture and the entirety of the testimony of the church fathers . . . 

It is true that the Church for its first twelve centuries offered both kinds. But it also offered only one kind in several different instances, as the Catholic Encyclopedia I linked to, documents, thus implying that either element is sufficient. And I have shown how this has scriptural support, in at least five passages.

40:15 You don’t find the bodily Assumption of Mary in the early church; you don’t find the Immaculate Conception of Mary in the early church; you don’t find the dogma of papal infallibility in the early church.

Most doctrines take many centuries to develop. One didn’t have the complete canon of Scripture until the late 4th century. The doctrine of the Holy Trinity was developing in key respects up through the 4th century, and in more particulars even a few centuries more. The view of religious image took many centuries to sort out (with Catholics, Orthodox, Lutherans, and Anglicans coming down on one side and Calvinists and some fundamentalists on the other). So that’s a given. And it’s true for doctrines that we believe in common.

The Blessed Virgin Mary’s Assumption and Immaculate Conception can be strongly deduced from Scripture and by analogies in Scripture. The primacy of St. Peter is very strongly indicated in the Bible and even strongly backed up in many particulars by Protestant scholars. Then we also have solid Protestant scholars noting how sola Scriptura and sola fide were both profoundly absent not only in the fathers but all the way up till Luther. See my article: Bible / Faith “Alone” vs. The Fathers (vs. Gavin Ortlund) [2-13-24]. We can defend our views on these matters (I just gave links where I have done so). Protestants can’t, and usually won’t, when scrutinized and pressed, in depth (as I am doing right now). Jordan has that choice. We’ll see what he decides.

40:27 There are many things that are declared dogma that actually don’t have any roots in Tradition. It’s just traditions that they happen to grab on to [with] many of them being very late . . . 

This is one of those hyper-polemical statements that take a lot of time and effort to refute. Fortunately, I have already done so, in my 33 years of Catholic apologetics writing (now available in 4,500+ articles — on this blog — and 55 books). In all of that work I have offered biblical and traditional arguments for virtually all major Catholic dogmas and doctrines. I’ve never found a single one that had didn’t “have any” biblical or patristic support. I’d be happy to discuss any of them with Jordan or Gavin Ortlund or any other active Protestant apologist.

40:43 infallibility isn’t declared Dogma until 1870 . . . 

That’s right, which means that Catholics were required to believe it after that time. It doesn’t follow that it wasn’t entrenched in Catholic tradition long before. I found a statement from St. Francis de Sales in the 16th century that is identical in many ways to the dogma of 1870. It was clearly believed. Luther makes many statements where he says that such-and-such a doctrine is good and pious but that it’s not required. That’s how Catholics were regarding papal infallibility before 1870. But then it was required, just as Luther would say about the Holy Eucharist or baptismal regeneration. It’s a debate about the precise nature of the level of authority any given doctrine has. Not one Protestant in a hundred understands these distinctions, and even Jordan seems not to (by the way he frames his statement).

One could say the same about the canon of Scripture, which was largely held with more and more certitude for 350 years, and then the church decreed that various books were certainly canonical and everyone accepted it, for the most part. It was fairly certain and then it became certain In terms of the faith of Christians). No one identified all 27 New Testament books as Scripture until 367, when Athanasius did it. Within 30 years, the Church at large agreed and proclaimed these books canon, along with the Old Testament (including the seven deuterocanonical books). So “late” dogmatic proclamations are no new concept with medieval Catholics. Protestants should be the last people to even bring such a thing up, seeing that their two pillars (sola Scriptura and sola fide) are scarcely found at all in the Bible, nor the fathers, nor the medieval Church. It’s a case of “log-in-the-eye disease.”

*

***

*

Practical Matters: Perhaps some of my 4,500+ free online articles (the most comprehensive “one-stop” Catholic apologetics site) or fifty-five books have helped you (by God’s grace) to decide to become Catholic or to return to the Church, or better understand some doctrines and why we believe them.

Or you may believe my work is worthy to support for the purpose of apologetics and evangelism in general. If so, please seriously consider a much-needed financial contribution. I’m always in need of more funds: especially monthly support. “The laborer is worthy of his wages” (1 Tim 5:18, NKJV). 1 December 2021 was my 20th anniversary as a full-time Catholic apologist, and February 2022 marked the 25th anniversary of my blog.

PayPal donations are the easiest: just send to my email address: apologistdave@gmail.com. Here’s also a second page to get to PayPal. You’ll see the term “Catholic Used Book Service”, which is my old side-business. To learn about the different methods of contributing (including Zelle), see my page: About Catholic Apologist Dave Armstrong / Donation InformationThanks a million from the bottom of my heart!

*

***

Photo credit: Lutheran church in Wittenberg, Germany where the Protestant Revolt began, with Martin Luther [Wikimedia Commons / Creative CommonsAttribution-Share Alike 3.0 Unported license]

Summary: Lutheran Jordan Cooper makes six wide-ranging criticisms of the Catholic Church (while supposedly arguing for sola Scriptura). I methodically dispose of each one.

February 27, 2024

1 Corinthians 3:12-15 (RSV) Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw — [13] each man’s work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. [14] If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. [15] If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

Reformed Baptist apologist James White recently engaged in a debate with Catholic apologist Trent Horn, on the topic of purgatory (2-17-24). In his usual “post-mortem” remarks on that exchange: a Dividing Line episode called “Road Trip Morning Dividing Line” (2-22-24), White stated at 37:35:

One of the glaring errors in Rome’s abuse of 1 Corinthians chapter 3 is the fact that “the day will show it.” In Paul’s language there the day is obviously the day of the Lord. It’s the final day of of judgment, but Purgatory doesn’t take place [on] the final day of judgment. Purgatory takes place before then; it takes place as soon as someone dies, and so how can that be relevant . . .?

Well, White assumes that it is the Day of the Lord; i.e., the final judgment, occurring shortly after the Second Coming. But not all Protestant commentators or biblical linguistic scholars agree with that, by any stretch.

Benson Commentary states that “especially the day of final judgment, the great day of the Lord, is here intended,” but it also includes other strains of meaning here that might be seen to include a time other than the day of judgment:

Perhaps, 1st, η ημερα δηλωσει, might be rendered, time will declare itfor time, generally a little time, manifests whether a minister’s doctrine be Scriptural and sound, and his converts genuine or not. If his preaching produce no saving effect upon his hearers, if none of them are reformed in their manners, and renewed in their hearts; if none of them are turned from sin to righteousness, and made new creatures in Christ Jesus, there is reason to suspect the doctrine delivered to them is not of the right kind, and therefore is not owned of God. 2d, The expression means, The day of trial shall declare it(see 1 Peter 4:12 [“do not be surprised at the fiery ordeal which comes upon you to prove you”]) for a day of trial is wont to follow a day of merciful visitation; . . .

Barnes’ Notes on the Bible similarly observes:

Perhaps the word “day” here may mean time in general, as we say, “time will show” – and as the Latin adage says, dies docebit; but it is more natural to refer it to the Day of Judgment.

Matthew Poole’s Commentary is even more “broad-minded”:

For the day shall declare it: what day shall declare it is not so steadily agreed by interpreters. Some by a day here understand a long time, in process of time it shall be declared; . . . Others understand it of a day of adversity and great affliction, the day of God’s vengeance; . . . Others understand by the day here mentioned, the day of judgment, which is indeed often called the day of the Lord, 1 Corinthians 1:8, and described by fire, Joel 2:3 2 Thessalonians 1:8 2 Peter 3:10; but this text saith not the day of the Lordbut only the day.

for the day shall declare it; meaning not the day of judgment, though that is often called the day, or that day, and will be attended with fire, and in it all secrets shall be made manifest; but the apostle intends a discovery that will be made of doctrines in this world, before that time comes: wherefore this day rather designs a day of tribulation; as of persecution, which tries men’s principles, whether they are solid or not; and of error and heresy, when men are put upon a re-examination of their doctrines, whereby persons and truths that are approved are made manifest . . .

Meyer’s NT Commentary holds that it refers to the day of judgment, but notes that there are other opinions, too:

The following expositions are alien to the succeeding context: of time in general (. . . —so Grotius, Wolf, Wetstein, Stolz, Rosenmüller, Flatt, and others); or of the time of clear knowledge of the gospel (Erasmus, Beza, Calvin, Vorstius) . . .

Henry Alford, in his Greek Testament Critical Exegetical Commentary, also thinks it is judgment day, but notes differing views among commentators:

(1) ‘the day of the destruction of Jerusalem,’ which shall shew the vanity of Judaizing doctrines: so Hammond (but not clearly nor exclusively), Lightfoot., Schöttg., . . . (2) ‘the lapse of time,’ as in the proverb, ‘dies docebit;’—so Grot., Wolf, Mosheim, Rosenm., . . . (3) ‘the light of day,’ i.e. of clear knowledge, as opposed to the present time of obscurity and night: so Calvin, Beza, Erasmus . . . (4) ‘the day of tribulation:’—so Augustine, . . .

Obviously, then, there is not one sole interpretation held by one and all, as White seems to casually assume. White’s take is the leading one among Protestants, but not the only one; so it’s not written in stone like the Ten Commandments. The Catholic Navarre Commentary states:

Although St. Paul does not make explicit mention of any judgment but this Last Judgment when Jesus “shall come to judge the living and the dead” (Apostle’s Creed), obviously — as the Church has always believed — there is also a judgment “immediately after death” (Benedict XII, Benedictus Deus, Dz-Sch, 1000). It is described as the “particular” or individual judgment because “when each one of us departs this life, he is instantly placed before the judgment seat of God, where all that he has ever done or spoken or thought during life shall be subjected to the most rigid scrutiny” (St. Pius V Catechism, I, 8, 3).

The Catholic Encyclopedia (“Particular Judgment”) explains this doctrine:

Existence of particular judgment proved from Scripture

Ecclesiastes 11:9; 12:1 sq.; and Hebrews 9:27, are sometimes quoted in proof of the particular judgment, but though these passages speak of a judgment after death, neither the context nor the force of the words proves that the sacred writer had in mind a judgment distinct from that at the end of the world. The Scriptural arguments in defence of the particular judgment must be indirect. There is no text of which we can certainly say that it expressly affirms this dogma but there are several which teach an immediate retribution after death and thereby clearly imply a particular judgment. Christ represents Lazarus and Dives [Luke 16:19 ff.] as receiving their respective rewards immediately after death. They have always been regarded as types of the just man and the sinner. To the penitent thief it was promised that his soul instantly on leaving the body would be in the state of the blessed: “This day thou shalt be with me in Paradise” (Luke 23:43). St. Paul (2 Corinthians 5) longs to be absent from the body that he may be present to the Lord, evidently understanding death to be the entrance into his reward (cf. Philemon 1:21 sq.). Ecclesiasticus 11:28-29 speaks of a retribution at the hour of death, but it may refer to a temporal punishment, such as sudden death in the midst of prosperity, the evil remembrance that survives the wicked or the misfortunes of their children. However, the other texts that have been quoted are sufficient to establish the strict conformity of the doctrine with Scripture teaching. (Cf. Acts 1:25; Apocalypse 20:4-6, 12-14).

[Dave: Luke 16:25 But Abraham said, `Son, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and Laz’arus in like manner evil things; but now he is comforted here, and you are in anguish.

2 Corinthians 5:8, 10 We are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord. . . . [10] For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive good or evil, according to what he has done in the body.

Revelation 20:4 Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom judgment was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony to Jesus and for the word of God, and who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life, and reigned with Christ a thousand years. (this was before the “great white throne” judgment on Judgment Day: see Rev 20:7, 11-15) ]

Patristic testimony regarding particular judgment

St. Augustine witnesses clearly and emphatically to this faith of the early Church. Writing to the presbyter Peter, he criticizes the works of Vincentius Victor on the soul, pointing out that they contain nothing except what is vain or erroneous or mere commonplace, familiar to all Catholics. As an instance of the last, he cites Victor’s interpretation of the parable of Lazarus and Dives. He writes:

For with respect to that which he [Victor] most correctly and very soundly holds, namely, that souls are judged when they depart from the body, before they come to that judgment which must be passed on them when reunited to the body and are tormented or glorified in that same flesh which they here inhabited — was that a matter of which you (Peter) were unaware? Who is so obstinate against the Gospel as not to perceive those things in the parable of that poor man carried after death to Abraham’s bosom and of the rich man whose torments are set before us? (De anima et ejus origine, 11, n.8.)

In the sermons of the Fathers occur graphic descriptions of the particular judgment (cf. S. Ephraem, “Sermo de secundo Adventu”; “Sermo in eos qui in Christo obdormiunt”).

St. Paul writes that “we shall all stand before the judgment seat of God . . . each of us shall give account of himself to God” (Rom 14:10, 12).

See also, Wikipedia, “Particular Judgment,” which provides scriptural and patristic indications.

Related Reading 

*
*
*

***

*

Practical Matters: Perhaps some of my 4,500+ free online articles (the most comprehensive “one-stop” Catholic apologetics site) or fifty-five books have helped you (by God’s grace) to decide to become Catholic or to return to the Church, or better understand some doctrines and why we believe them.

Or you may believe my work is worthy to support for the purpose of apologetics and evangelism in general. If so, please seriously consider a much-needed financial contribution. I’m always in need of more funds: especially monthly support. “The laborer is worthy of his wages” (1 Tim 5:18, NKJV). 1 December 2021 was my 20th anniversary as a full-time Catholic apologist, and February 2022 marked the 25th anniversary of my blog.

PayPal donations are the easiest: just send to my email address: apologistdave@gmail.com. Here’s also a second page to get to PayPal. You’ll see the term “Catholic Used Book Service”, which is my old side-business. To learn about the different methods of contributing (including Zelle), see my page: About Catholic Apologist Dave Armstrong / Donation InformationThanks a million from the bottom of my heart!

*

***

Photo credit: YouTube image from “Gold Refined by Fire Pt. 2” (April 16, 2023); The LifeMission Channel.

Summary: Baptist apologist James White argues that “the Day” in 1 Corinthians 3:13 refers to the Day of the Lord (the Last Judgment). I argue that it’s the particular judgment.

October 31, 2023

vs. Nathan Rinne

Including St. Augustine’s View on the Rule of Faith & the Perspicuity of Scripture; Luther & Lutherans’ Belief in Falling Away

Nathan Rinne is a “Lutheran layman with a theology degree.” He knows enough theology to be able to preach a sermon (“Still Justified by Faith Alone, Apart from Works of the Law”), which he did at the Clam Falls Lutheran Church in Wisconsin on October 29, 2023, in celebration of the Protestant Revolt, or what Protestants call “Reformation Day” (October 31st, when Luther tacked up his 95 Theses in 1517). This congregation is a member of the American Association of Lutheran Churches (AALC), which is a breakaway traditional Lutheran denomination (since Lutheranism as a whole is largely theologically liberal today). It had 16,000 members as of 2008, and is in friendly fellowship with the much larger Lutheran Church – Missouri Synod (1.8 million members). Nathan and I engaged in several substantive and cordial dialogues about a dozen years ago. His words will be in blue. I use RSV for Bible citations.

*****

“For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law.”

– Romans 3:28

The phrase “works of the law” here (a technical phrase that St. Paul uses seven times) is not referring to all good works whatsoever (which is what most think it means), but rather, certain ceremonial Jewish laws. This is what is called the “New Perspective on Paul” (NPP): a Protestant scholarly movement that has a significant affinity with traditional Catholic doctrine in this respect. The Wikipedia article by this title provides a good summary:

The old Protestant perspective claims that Paul advocates justification through faith in Jesus Christ over justification through works of the Law. After the Reformation, this perspective was known as sola fide; this was traditionally understood as Paul arguing that Christians’ good works would not factor into their salvation – only their faith would count. In this perspective, first-century Second Temple Judaism is dismissed as sterile and legalistic.

According to [this view], Paul’s letters do not address general good works, but instead question observances such as circumcision, dietary laws, and Sabbath laws, which were the “boundary markers” that set the Jews apart from the other ethnic groups. . . . first-century Palestinian Judaism was not a “legalistic community,” nor was it oriented to “salvation by works.” . . .

The “new perspective” is an attempt to reanalyze Paul’s letters and interpret them based on an understanding of first-century Judaism, taken on its own terms. . . .

There are certain trends and commonalities within the movement, but what is held in common is the belief that the historic Lutheran and Reformed perspectives of Paul the Apostle and Judaism are fundamentally incorrect. . . .

The historic Protestant perspectives interpret this phrase [“works of the law”] as referring to human effort to do good works in order to meet God’s standards (Works Righteousness). . . . By contrast, new-perspective scholars see Paul as talking about “badges of covenant membership” or criticizing Gentile believers who had begun to rely on the Torah to reckon Jewish kinship. . . .

“New-perspective” interpretations of Paul tend to result in Paul having nothing negative to say about the idea of human effort or good works, and saying many positive things about both. New-perspective scholars point to the many statements in Paul’s writings that specify the criteria of final judgment as being the works of the individual.

Final Judgment According to Works… was quite clear for Paul (as indeed for Jesus). Paul, in company with mainstream second-Temple Judaism, affirms that God’s final judgment will be in accordance with the entirety of a life led – in accordance, in other words, with works.

— N. T. Wright

. . . in the perspective of Luther and Calvin, God graciously empowers the individual to the faith which leads to salvation and also to good works, while in the “new” perspective God graciously empowers individuals to the faith (demonstrated in good works), which leads to salvation.

Catholics, who also believe in merit (a biblical concept itself, which Protestants, including NPP advocates, deny), hold that faith and works cannot be separated, and that the latter is an intrinsic part of the former, without which faith is “dead” (see James 2:17, 26).

Yes, the church had always had to deal with relatively small break-off groups…

And Lutheranism: concocted by Martin Luther in 1517 and especially in his writings in 1521, is one of these. But it was different in that it was still trinitarian and Christian, alongside its errors.

But for the most part, the church was one body, catholic, that is universal – being found across the nations. 

Yes, and it remains so today, and has been so since the time that Jesus Christ established it with St. Peter as the first leader (Mt 16:18-19).

Then there was the Eastern schism some 1000 years ago, when the Eastern churches split from Rome, the Western half of the church.

That’s exactly what happened, as opposed to the Catholic Church departing Orthodoxy, as if it were the one true Church by itself. Eastern Christianity had in fact split off of Rome at least five times before, and in every occurrence they were on the wrong side of the dispute, as Orthodox today concede:

1. The Arian schisms (343-98)
2. The controversy over St. John Chrysostom (404-415)
3. The Acacian schism (484-519)
4. Concerning Monothelitism (640-681)
5. Concerning Iconoclasm (726-87 and 815-43)

1054 was simply a larger and sadly lasting instance of the same schismatic, “contra-Catholic” mentality.

Following this, about 500 years ago, the Protestant Reformation occurred, with Rome expelling Martin Luther and then other Protestants for their perceived rebellion. 

Let no one fool themselves: this was undeniably a schism, just as the Orthodox departure was. Nathan calls that split a “schism” but is reluctant to call the Protestant Revolt the same thing. But what is the essential difference? There is none. He even uses the qualifying term “perceived” in referring to Luther’s rebellion, implying that it wasn’t that, and is wrongly thought to be so by Catholics. It certainly was a revolt or rebellion. In fact, Luther departed from Catholic teaching in at least fifty ways before he was ever excommunicated, as I documented over 17 years ago. I commented upon this, after listing the fifty items:

So that is 50 ways in which Luther was a heretic, heterodox, a schismatic, or believed things which were clearly contrary to the Catholic Church’s teaching or practice, up to and including truly radical departures (even societally radical in some cases). Is that enough to justify his excommunication from Catholic ranks? Or was the Church supposed to say, “yeah, Luther, you know, you’re right about these fifty issues. You know better than the entire Church, the entire history of the Church, and all the wisdom of the saints in past ages who have believed these things. So we will bow to your heaven-sent wisdom, change all fifty beliefs or practices, so we can proceed in a godly direction. Thanks so much! We are forever indebted to you for having informed us of all these errors!!”

Is that not patently ridiculous? What Church would change 50 things in its doctrines because one person feels himself to be some sort of oracle from God or pseudo-prophet: God’s man for the age? Yet we are led to believe that it is self-evident that Luther was a good, obedient Catholic who only wanted to reform the Church, not overturn or leave it, let alone start a new sect. He may have been naive or silly enough to believe that himself, but objectively speaking, it is clear and plain to one and all that what he offered – even prior to 1520 – was a radical program; a revolution. This is not reform. And the so-called “Protestant Reformation” was not that, either (considered as a whole). It was a Revolt or a Revolution. I have just shown why that is.

No sane, conscious person who had read any of his three radical treatises of 1520 could doubt that he had already ceased to be an orthodox Catholic. He did not reluctantly become so because he was unfairly kicked out of the Church by men who would not listen to manifest Scripture and reason (as the Protestant myth and perpetual propaganda would have it) but because he had chosen himself to accept heretical teachings, by the standard of Catholic orthodoxy, and had become a radical, intent also on spreading his (sincerely and passionately held) errors across the land with slanderous, mocking, propagandistic tracts and even vulgar woodcuts, if needs be.

Therefore, the Church was entirely sensible, reasonable, within her rights, logical, self-consistent, and not hypocritical or “threatened” in the slightest to simply demand Luther’s recantation of his errors at the Diet of Worms in 1521, and to refuse to argue with him (having already tried on several occasions, anyway), because to do so would have granted his ridiculous presumption that he was in a position to singlehandedly dispute and debate what had been the accumulated doctrinal and theological wisdom of the Church for almost 1500 years.

No doubt such an argument sounds “harsh” and utterly unacceptable to Lutheran and other Protestant ears, but it’s nothing personal, and hey, their endless oppositional rhetoric against Catholicism (usually filled with caricatures and historical whoppers; even theological inaccuracies) also sounds quite harsh to us, too. It works both ways. The Catholic must respond — and cannot be faulted for responding — to the basic Protestant critique of us, just as Nathan is attempting to do in this sermon. Protestants have a well-honed perspective, but rest assured that we have ours, too, and it is at least as reasonable as theirs. Protestants are so used to no or feeble defenses of the Catholic Church over against “Reformation” rhetoric that they think their view of the Protestant Revolt is the only possible one available. I used to be of the same mind myself, until I actually read both sides. There are always two sides to every human conflict, and both need to be fairly considered.

Was the Reformation necessary? 

If it was a necessity – even one that God deemed necessary – was it a tragic necessity? 

No. What was necessary was a reform within the existing Catholic Church (which is always necessary at any given time, as we say: human beings being the sinners that we are).

Or, should we, perhaps feeling some blame for causing a rupture in the body, feel some shame for being Lutherans?

Current-day Lutherans are not to blame for the sin of schism, as the Catholic Church made clear at Vatican II, but Luther and the original Lutheran — and larger Protestant — movement were responsible for that sin. Lutheranism contains a great deal of truth, as all Protestant denominations do, and that is a very good thing. I thank God and am very grateful for what I learned when I was an evangelical, from 1977-1990.

Catholics contend that Catholicism is the fullness of theological and spiritual truth. It doesn’t have to run down Protestants as wicked and evil (as the tiny anti-Catholic wing of Protestants think of us). Rather, it is a “very good” and “best” scenario, as we see it, rather than “good vs. evil” or “light vs. darkness.” We’re not the ones making the accusation of “antichrists” and mass apostasy from Christianity itself, and supposed idolatry and blasphemy and all the rest. We would say, “we have much more to offer to you, our esteemed separate brethren, that can benefit you in your Christian walk with Jesus.” Its somewhat like the “pearl of great price” in the Bible.

Martin Luther also said some very good and “traditional-sounding” words about the Catholic Church, as I have documented. These came mostly after he was shocked by the further (and I would say, inevitable) inter-Protestant schisms of the Anabaptists, Zwingli, Carlstadt, iconoclasts, and others; as well as the Peasants’ Revolt of 1524-1525. Luther utterly detested these splits, saying that “there are as many sects as there are heads.” His rhetoric was much less fiery and volatile and “anti-traditional” after that; at least some of the time. But he refused to ever admit that he started all of this with his own schism and the new and false premises and presuppositions entailed (such as sola Scriptura and private judgment). How blind we all are to our own faults! When Zwingli was killed in battle, Luther wrote:

And recently God has notably punished the poor people of Switzerland, Zwingli and his followers, for they were hardened and perverted, condemned of themselves, as St. Paul says. They will all experience the same.

Although neither Munzerites nor Zwinglians will admit that they are punished by God, but give out that they are martyrs, nevertheless we, who know that they have gravely erred in the sacrament and other articles, recognize God’s punishment and beware of it ourselves. (Preserved Smith, The Life and Letters of Luther, Boston and New York: Houghton Mifflin Company, 1911, 291-292; letter from Wittenberg, “February or beginning of March, 1532)

In the same letter Luther decried the notion that anyone would “teach against the long and unanimously held doctrine of the Church” and stated that “we must not trifle with the articles of faith so long and unanimously held by Christendom.” In his mind, Catholicism was superior to the Protestants who deemed fit to split off against his own movement (using the same justification that he used to depart from Catholicism).

You see, even admirable men like Sir Thomas More (see the excellent movie A Man for All Seasons!) said that since the church basically owned the Bible they could decide how it was to be used and interpreted!

This needs to be documented, so one can consult the context. I just wrote yesterday about the Catholic Church and the interpretation of Scripture, knocking down the usual numerous myths But even if St. Thomas More — great as he was, as a saint and martyr — is shown to have expressed something contrary to official Church doctrine, he had no authority anyway, compared to the magisterium. Lutherans, in fact, argue the same way. Many times if I cite Luther, they will note that it’s not his view that counts, but rather that of the Book of Concord (and I understand this; I usually cite Luther in the historical sense, of how the early Protestants developed; as I have done in this article). Likewise, with us. Protestant critics need to properly consult ecumenical councils or papal encyclicals if they wish to critique our view, not individual scholars or theologians.

Some of Rome’s highest-ranking theologians, like the Court theologian Prier[i]as for example, even claimed the authority of the Gospel existed because of the Pope’s authority. He stated: 

“In its irrefragable and divine judgment the church’s authority is greater than the authority of Scripture…the authority of the Roman Pontiff…is greater than the authority of the Gospel, since because of it we believe in the Gospels.”)” (see Tavard’s Holy Writ on Holy Church)…

Again, one theologian doesn’t speak for the whole Church (and shouldn’t be presented as supposedly having done so). Not even any given Church father — including the great Augustine — can do so. The authoritative magisterium of the Church in harmonious conjunction with sacred tradition and Sacred Scripture determines these matters. An individual (and not a bishop) is cited, even though he has no binding authority in Catholicism. This is not the way to disprove anything in Catholicism.

Prierias died in 1523, 22 years before the Council of Trent began. Theologians are not even part of the magisterium (it is popes and bishops together in ecumenical councils in harmony with popes). He was simply wrong. The Decree Concerning the Canonical Scriptures, from the Fourth Session of the Council of Trent in 1546 (the year of Luther’s death), doesn’t approach Holy Scripture like Prierias did:

. . . keeping this always in view, that, errors being removed, the purity itself of the Gospel be preserved in the Church; which (Gospel), before promised through the prophets in the holy Scriptures, our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, first promulgated with His own mouth, and then commanded to be preached by His Apostles to every creature, as the fountain of all, both saving truth, and moral discipline . . . (the Synod) following the examples of the orthodox Fathers, receives and venerates with an equal affection of piety, and reverence, all the books both of the Old and of the New Testament–seeing that one God is the author of both . . . as having been dictated, either by Christ’s own word of mouth, or by the Holy Ghost, and preserved in the Catholic Church by a continuous succession. (my italics)

The Catholic Church “receives” and “preserves” and “venerates” the Bible. It doesn’t claim authority over the Bible or the gospel. It’s two different concepts. One statement by one non-authoritative theologian doesn’t change this fact. Vatican I (1870) and Vatican II (1962-1965) elaborated upon this understanding and made it even more crystal clear that the Catholic Church doesn’t consider itself superior to or “over” the Bible:

These the Church holds to be sacred and canonical; not because, having been carefully composed by mere human industry, they were afterward approved by her authority; not because they contain revelation, with no admixture of error; but because, having been written by the inspiration of the Holy Ghost, they have God for their author, and have been delivered as such to the Church herself. (Vatican I, Dogmatic Constitution on the Catholic Faith, chapter II; emphasis added)

The divinely-revealed realities which are contained and presented in the text of sacred Scripture, have been written down under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. For Holy Mother Church relying on the faith of the apostolic age, accepts as sacred and canonical the books of the Old and New Testaments, whole and entire, with all their parts, on the grounds that they were written under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit (cf. Jn. 20:31; 2 Tim. 3:16; 2 Pet. 1:19-21; 3:15-16), they have God as their author, and have been handed on as such to the Church herself. (Vatican II, Dogmatic Constitution on Divine Revelation [Dei Verbum], Chapter III, 11; emphasis added)

Nathan himself stated later on, that “the Church, in it’s truly God-given authority, had recognized, and zealously guarded and passed down its primary tradition, the Holy Scriptures. Exactly! This is precisely what Vatican I and Vatican II clarified.    Likewise, Lutheran Carl E. Braaten wrote eloquently about the relationship of the Bible and the Church: thoughts that Catholics can wholeheartedly accept:

Scripture principle exists only on account of the church and for the sake of the church…The Scripture principle of Reformation theology and its hermeneutical principles make sense only in and with the church . . . The authority of Scripture functions not in separation from the church but only in conjunction with the Spirit-generated fruits in the life of the church, its apostolic confession of faith and its life-giving sacraments of baptism, absolution and the Lord’s Supper. (“The Problem of Authority in the Church,” in: Carl E. Braaten and Robert W. Jenson, editors, The Catholicity of the Reformation, Grand Rapids, Michigan: William B. Eerdmans, 1996, 61-62)

This, to say the least, is a far cry from what Augustine meant. 

He, for one – like many others before and after him – also said things like, “Let us… yield ourselves and bow to the authority of the Holy Scriptures, which can neither err nor deceive…”

A citation would be nice for this one, too (many people online also cite it without documentation). But there is nothing contrary to Catholicism in these words, even without consultation of context. Every Christian ought to do so. Since we’re now gonna engage in the rather common exercise of “competing” St. Augustine citations, I’m more than happy to cull from the book that I edited, The Quotable Augustine (2012). It devotes six-and-a-half pages to the question of thoroughly Catholic Augustine‘s view of the rule of faith. Here are some of his words:

There is a third class of objectors who either really do understand Scripture well, or think they do, and who, because they know (or imagine) that they have attained a certain power of interpreting the sacred books without reading any directions of the kind that I propose to lay down here, will cry out that such rules are not necessary for any one, but that everything rightly done towards clearing up the obscurities of Scripture could be better done by the unassisted grace of God. . . . No, no; rather let us put away false pride and learn whatever can be learned from man; . . . lest, being ensnared by such wiles of the enemy and by our own perversity, we may even refuse to go to the churches to hear the gospel itself, or to read a book, or to listen to another reading or preaching, . . . Cornelius the centurion, although an angel announced to him that his prayers were heard and his alms had in remembrance, was yet handed over to Peter for instruction, and not only received the sacraments from the apostle’s hands, but was also instructed by him as to the proper objects of faith, hope, and love. [Acts x] And without doubt it was possible to have done everything through the instrumentality of angels, but the condition of our race would have been much more degraded if God had not chosen to make use of men as the ministers of His word to their fellow-men. For how could that be true which is written, “The temple of God is holy, which temple you are,” [1 Corinthians 3:17] if God gave forth no oracles from His human temple, but communicated everything that He wished to be taught to men by voices from heaven, or through the ministration of angels? Moreover, love itself, which binds men together in the bond of unity, would have no means of pouring soul into soul, and, as it were, mingling them one with another, if men never learned anything from their fellow-men. (On Christian Doctrine, Preface, 2, 5-6)

The authority of our books, which is confirmed by the agreement of so many nations, supported by a succession of apostles, bishops, and councils, is against you. (Against Faustus the Manichee, xiii, 5; cf. xi, 5; xiii, 16; xxxiii, 9)

[W]e hold most firmly, concerning our Lord Jesus Christ, what may be called the canonical rule, as it is both disseminated through the Scriptures, and has been demonstrated by learned and Catholic handlers of the same Scriptures . . . (On the Trinity, ii, 1, 2)

My opinion therefore is, that wherever it is possible, all those things should be abolished without hesitation, which neither have warrant in Holy Scripture, nor are found to have been appointed by councils of bishops, nor are confirmed by the practice of the universal Church, . . . (Epistle 55 [19, 35] to Januarius [400] )

St. Augustine also wrote about the perspicuity (clearness) of Scripture:

[L]et the reader consult the rule of faith which he has gathered from the plainer passages of Scripture, and from the authority of the Church, . . . (On Christian Doctrine, 3, 2, 2)

For many meanings of the holy Scriptures are concealed, and are known only to a few of singular intelligence . . . (Explanations of the Psalms, 68:30 [68, 36] )

For him, the authority of the church was embodied in the living tradition, admittedly spearheaded by the Pope, and that was because the Scriptures were also the ultimate wellspring of that authority, the sum and substance of that authority. 

The Catholic Church wholeheartedly agrees, in affirming that the Catholic “teaching office is not above the word of God, but serves it, teaching only what has been handed on, listening to it devoutly, guarding it scrupulously and explaining it faithfully in accord with a divine commission and with the help of the Holy Spirit . . .” (Vatican II, Dei Verbum, ch. II, 10).

The same document stated that “Easy access to Sacred Scripture should be provided for all the Christian faithful” (ch. 6, 22); “the study of the sacred page is, as it were, the soul of sacred theology” (ch. 6, 24); “all the clergy must hold fast to the Sacred Scriptures through diligent sacred reading and careful study . . . The sacred synod also earnestly and especially urges all the Christian faithful, especially Religious, to learn by frequent reading of the divine Scriptures the ‘excellent knowledge of Jesus Christ’ (Phil. 3:8); “For ignorance of the Scriptures is ignorance of Christ.” (ch. 6, 25); “we may hope for a new stimulus for the life of the Spirit from a growing reverence for the word of God, which ‘lasts forever’ (Is. 40:8; see 1 Peter 1:23-25).” (ch. 6, 26); “the force and power in the word of God is so great that it stands as the support and energy of the Church, the strength of faith for her sons, the food of the soul, the pure and everlasting source of spiritual life.” (ch. 6, 21)

And the church in Luther’s day was failing, to say the least. In his day, the Pope was going so far as to say things like “since God has given us the papacy, let us enjoy it.” 

How is this inconsistent with what St. Paul wrote: “let every one lead the life which the Lord has assigned to him, and in which God has called him” (1 Cor 7:17)? Is the pope supposed to go around with a long face, and not “enjoy” his work? It’s a mere drudgery? Paul asserted that God “richly furnishes us with everything to enjoy” (1 Tim 6:17). Yet somehow the office of the papacy is to be devoid of such joy? Biblically, this makes no sense. “Joy” is mentioned 60 times in the NT. The disciples were “filled with joy” (Acts 13:52; cf. Rom 14:17; 15:13; 2 Cor 2:3; Gal 5:22; Phil 1:25; Col 1:11; 1 Thess 1:6; 1 Pet 1:8). This should be the case even when we “meet various trials” (Jas 1:2). James says to “Count it all joy.”

Clearly, here was a leader of God’s church who – so taken up with worldly power – was culpably ignorant of not understanding what God really intended for him to do. 

How does this follow from the words cited? Nathan attempts to judge a man’s heart, and for no sufficient reason: a thing which we ought never do. If these words (assuming they are authentic) indeed carry some nefarious or sinister meaning, then we would have to have some context, to judge that. Prima facie, I see nothing wrong or unbiblical about them. But whatever the man’s real faults, we point out that impeccability is not the same as papal infallibility. There were a few “bad popes.” Just as sinners wrote the inspired revelation of the Bible, so can sinners make infallible pronouncements. Most popes, however, have been good, pious Christians and holy men.

Luther . . . brought nothing new.

To the contrary, as I have documented, he brought at least fifty novel, new things into Christian theology: and all before he was ever excommunicated.

We can therefore never emphasize enough that Luther and the “Lutherans” – Rome’s term of abuse – never intended to leave the Roman Catholic Church but were ejected by them.

If “Lutherans” is a “term of abuse” then why was it retained by the denomination [s] that continued Luther’s split? Lutherans free to reject the term, just as we are to reject “papism” or “Romanism,” etc. Until they do, the above objection is a non sequitur.

The intention to leave is clearly latent in the fact that Luther came to espouse fifty things contrary to existing Catholic tradition, which showed his spirit of rebellion and arrogance (thinking he knew better than the Church and all of Church history and doctrinal precedent), just as lust in the heart precedes actual physical adultery. He spread these radical ideas far and wide, with the help of the printing press. It’s how every radical movement has functioned ever since: start promulgating ideas, to get people to believe them, and then appeal to the fact that they have (the ad populum fallacy).

And then, over and against their Roman Catholic opponents, the claim of these “first evangelicals” who agreed with Luther was not that they were doing anything new, but that their teachings truly were “holy, catholic and apostolic…” 

This claim is a demonstrable falsehood. Many things remained the same (thank God), but there were also many novel innovations and inventions, and no one who knows the facts of the matter can possibly deny that. It was a “mixed bag” from the Catholic perspective.

“The churches among us do not dissent from the catholic church in any article of faith,” they insisted. 

Right. And what would they call Luther’s fifty dissenting opinions, that Lutheranism largely followed? Permissible variations?

In addition to the nonsense about the role the Scriptures played in the church,

What’s “nonsense” is this accusation against the Catholic Church, as I thoroughly explained above.

the Pope had insisted he had full authority over temporal political matters and one had to believe this to be saved.

This was a widespread medieval understanding, and not exclusive to Catholicism. Luther thought that the Anabaptists were “seditious” and subverted not only the theological and ecclesial, but also civil order. He thought the same about the violent hordes of the Peasants’ Revolt, and Carlstadt and his image-smashers, Zwingli’s shocking rejection of the eucharistic Real Presence, etc. The medieval mind didn’t make much of a separation between the realms of Church and state.

In fact, Luther — along with Butcher Henry VIII — brought in the Church state, so that people were required in Germany to be a Lutheran simply by being born in a Lutheran-controlled territory of Germany. He treated princes as if they had authority in the Church, as if they were bishops (the old error of caesaropapism to some degree). How is that not meddling in temporal affairs? Yet Protestant polemicists so often have tunnel vision and a double standard, contending that only the Catholic Church had all these (real or merely imagined) problems, while ignoring the myriad of scandals and problems and endless sectarianism and radical mentalities and doctrinal errors / contradictions of many in the young Protestant movement and ever since.

Priests were forbidden to marry, in direct contradiction to Scripture.

This is not unscriptural at all. The Catholic Church was following St. Paul’s express recommendations for achieving an “undivided devotion to the Lord” (1 Cor 7:35) by celibate individuals (cf. “he who refrains from marriage will do better”: 1 Cor 7:38). Jesus said, “there are eunuchs who have made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. He who is able to receive this, let him receive it” (Mt 19:12). I guess Protestants can’t “receive” it.  They’re picking and choosing again, what will be accepted in the Bible, and what will be rejected. Priestly celibacy is a good thing, not a bad thing. We simply follow Jesus’ and Paul’s advice to a greater extent than Protestants do. But — here’s the thing — it’s difficult to be celibate, so Protestants throw it out, contrary to Scripture, which doesn’t do so, simply because something is difficult.  The Bible teaches that “I can do all things in him who strengthens me” (Phil 4:13). I add that priests are allowed to marry in the eastern rites of the Catholic Church, because this is a “disciplinary” or pastoral matter, not a doctrinal or dogmatic one.

In conjunction with secular authorities, the offices of the bishops were often given to the highest bidders. 

Yes; that was scandalous; so were Lutherans and other Protestants pretending that secular bishops (many of whom cared not a whit about Christianity or morals in general) were quasi-bishops. There is enough sin and corruption and ignoring of the Bible to go around.

People became monks specifically because the Roman church taught and promised it was the surest way to achieve salvation by their increased merit. 

Heroic, exceptionally sacrificial sanctity or what is called the “evangelical counsels” is indeed one way to be more sure that we will attain heaven. See the many Bible passages about merit and sanctification tied directly to justification.

Laypersons were told that they could eliminate thousands of years of painful purging fire for their ancestors by “prayerfully” providing donations to the church.

The Papacy had recently expanded indulgences to include the claim of granting forgiveness itself… 

The Catholic Church — in the Catholic Reformation — reformed the practice of indulgences (which is itself a notion taught in the Bible). See my article, Myths and Facts Regarding Tetzel and Indulgences (11-25-16; published in Catholic Herald).

Also, men and women were given the body of Christ, but not the blood, which was reserved for the clergy. 

There was no theological / spiritual reason to receive both. There were considerations of the sacred blood possibly dripping, etc. But Christ can’t be divided, and is fully present in both the consecrated hosts and the chalice. I myself always receive only the consecrated host. See my article, The Host and Chalice Both Contain Christ’s Body and Blood (National Catholic Register, 12-10-19). Of course, we now allow both. It’s another pastoral / disciplinary matter, which can change according to place and circumstance; not doctrine.

In the Mass itself, the priests spoke of re-sacrificing Christ, and achieving salvation through this and other merits…

It’s not a “re-sacrifice” but rather, the one sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the cross supernaturally made present again.

But, above all, people were told that they could not be certain that they would even be saved… even make it to purgatory (for note that if you got to purgatory, you’d eventually get to heaven…). 

No one can be absolutely certain of what the future holds, because we are in time and simply can’t know that information. That includes the question of our own eternal destiny. Even John Calvin stated that no one but God can know who is of the elect. It’s folly and unbiblical (as well as irrational) to pretend otherwise.  We know that people fall away from the faith. We can’t be certain that we won’t. Catholics believe in what we call a “moral assurance of salvation.” I’ve always said that I am just as confident of my salvation (without being certain) as a Catholic, as I was when I was a Protestant. Catholics examine their consciences to make sure they are not in a state of mortal sin, that separates them from God and could possibly lead to damnation, if not repented of and absolved.

Right around the same time that Luther nailed the 95 theses to the Church doors in Wittenberg, the theologian Johann Altenstaig (in his Vocabularius theologiae, Hagenau 1517) was saying that the devil led people astray by making them think there was good evidence for their being saved. 

“No one, no matter how righteous he may be”, Altenstaig said, “can know with certainty that he is in the state of grace, except by a revelation”.

We can believe there is good evidence that we will be saved if we die in the next minute, through the examination of our consciences and confession if necessary (moral assurance) and the absence of subjective mortal sin, but it’s not certainty. He’s correct. Anyone who thinks they are absolutely certain of this is deluding themselves, short of an extraordinary revelation, just as he says. St. Paul argues the same way many times. He doesn’t assume he is saved once and for all time. That’s just Protestant man-made tradition. Martin Luther agrees with us: “one cannot say with certainty who will be [called] in the future or who will finally endure . . .” (Sermon on John 17; Luther’s Works, Vol 69:50-51). All agree that the elect will be saved and cannot not be saved, because God predestined it (yes, we believe in the predestination of the elect, too). But we can’t know with certainty who is in their number. That’s the problem.

In like fashion, one of the most important movers and shakers in the church, Cardinal Cajetan, wrote a few weeks before confronting Luther at Augsburg, wrote that “Clearly almost all come to the sacraments of penance and the Eucharist in reverent fear of the Lord and uncertain of being in grace. In fact theologians praise their continuing uncertainty and ordinarily attribute its opposite to presumption or ignorance” (both quotes from Cajetan Responds, a footnote from p. 269 and p. 66).

Once again, one Cardinal is cited; nothing from Trent or earlier ecumenical councils or papal encyclicals (which constitute the magisterium). So it carries no weight. I won’t bother checking context (I appreciate the documentation), but it looks to me like he is referring to a specific situation: the penitent approaching confession, which means they are conscious of some sin, and possibly mortal sin. I could see that they might have some uncertainty until they are absolved, at which point they are restored back to grace, and have a reasonable and fairly “high” moral assurance of salvation, were they to die on the way home, etc.

I don’t know why Nathan makes this a Catholic-Protestant issue, since Lutherans agree with us that a person can fall away from the faith and grace. One Lutheran, Joseph Klotz, in a helpful article entitled, “Three Examples of How Lutherans Deny Justification by Faith Alone: A Response – Part Two of Two” (6-29-15, SteadfastLutherans.org) observed:

The fact that confessional Lutherans teach that believers can fall away from the faith, while at the same time teaching that God earnestly desires all men to be saved shows that confessional Lutherans confess what the Bible teaches, . . .

This very issue comes into play when St. Paul discusses with Timothy the case of Hymenaeus and Alexander.

This charge [Timothy’s duty to order certain teachers not stray from pure doctrinal teaching] I entrust to you, Timothy, my child, in accordance with the prophecies previously made about you, that by them you may wage the good warfare, holding faith and a good conscience. By rejecting this, some have made shipwreck of their faith, among whom are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan that they may learn not to blaspheme (1 Timothy 1:18-20).

St. Paul is not saying here that Hymenaeus and Alexander will be judged in the temporal realm, by dying or some such thing, and suffer a loss of reward at the judgment seat of Christ on the Last Day, but still march into the New Heavens and New Earth, “as through fire.” He is saying that the very thing through which they would be saved, their faith, has been “shipwrecked.” It has been destroyed. The faith, which they once had as members of the Ephesian congregation, is no more. They have passed from life to death, so to speak. . . .

St. Paul similarly warns the Corinthians not to fall away from their faith into idolatry. . . .

It is revealing that St. Paul [in 1 Cor 10:6-11] uses the words “fell” and “destroyed” when describing what happened to those who continued in their unbelief. Again, he is not describing merely a temporal consequence of sin. Scripture tells us that these people, who were graciously delivered from bondage, persisted in unbelief. They resisted the working of God the Holy Spirit and eventually fell from the faith they had been given and were destroyed. Why does St. Paul recount this to the Corinthians? It is to be an example to them so that they do not similarly fall into sin, away from God, and be destroyed.

James Swan, a Reformed defender of Martin Luther (hundreds of articles) documented Luther’s belief in apostasy:

Through baptism these people threw out unbelief, had their unclean way of life washed away, and entered into a pure life of faith and love. Now they fall away into unbelief (Commentary on 2 Peter 2:22).

Verse 4, “Ye are fallen from grace.” That means you are no longer in the kingdom or condition of grace. When a person on board ship falls into the sea and is drowned it makes no difference from which end or side of the ship he falls into the water. Those who fall from grace perish no matter how they go about it. … The words, “Ye are fallen from grace,” must not be taken lightly. They are important. To fall from grace means to lose the atonement, the forgiveness of sins, the righteousness, liberty, and life which Jesus has merited for us by His death and resurrection. To lose the grace of God means to gain the wrath and judgment of God, death, the bondage of the devil, and everlasting condemnation. (Commentary on Galatians, 5:4; Luther’s Works, Vol. 27).

These words, “You have fallen away from grace,” should not be looked at in a cool and careless way; for they are very emphatic. Whoever falls away from grace simply loses the propitiation, forgiveness of sins, righteousness, freedom, life, etc., which Christ earned for us by His death and resurrection; and in place of these he acquires the wrath and judgment of God, sin, death, slavery to the devil, and eternal damnation. (Ibid.)

Cajetan incidently – like all of Rome’s “court theologians” – also placed the authority of the pope above that of a council, Scripture, and everything in the church… 

He is above a council and the Church, but not above Scripture. This is Catholic teaching. So even if good ol’ Cardinal Cajetan and all these “court theologians” were wrong, it wouldn’t hurt our viewpoint in the slightest. They have no binding authority. It’s just non-magisterial opinions. We don’t determine truth by the majority vote of a bunch of pointy-head theologians, as so many Protestants in effect do. When we do count heads and take votes (such as in ecumenical councils and papal elections), it’s from the bishops, who have biblically sanctioned authority in the Church.

Luther . . . was not about to give up the teaching about confession and absolution that his spiritual father, John Staupitz, had modeled for him and shared with him – and that Luther said had made him a Christian! 

But he modified an essential aspect of them, so in fact he did give them up.  Luther appears to apply the function of hearing a confession and giving absolution to all Christians, not solely to ordained Lutheran pastors: “. . . confession, privately before any brother, . . .” (The Babylonian Captivity of the Church, 1520, in Three Treatises, 214). The Apology for the Augsburg Confession, written by Luther’s close friend Philip Melanchthon in 1531, and binding on Lutherans, describes absolution as a sacrament.

For Paul, clearly, says that we are justified by faith in many places, without mentioning anything else.

That doesn’t logically rule out a role for works, as part and parcel of faith. Initial justification by faith is a thing we agree on. Justification by faith alone all through one’s life is where we have an honest disagreement. I have compiled fifty Bible passages that teach that works play a central role at the time of the judgment and in determining who will enter heaven (as the Lutheran Braaten noted above). Faith is only mentioned once in all of them (yes, once!), alongside works. I didn’t make this up. It’s in the Bible: fifty times! I’ve also collected 150 more passages that contradict “faith alone” and connect sanctification with justification in a way that Protestantism rejects, and that teach the doctrine of merit as well.

Nathan ends by citing Joseph Ratzinger (Pope Benedict XVI), and thinks he supported faith alone. I congratulation him for finally citing a magisterial source, right before he concluded. But even this may be from the time before he was pope (hence, not magisterial, if so). He provides no documentation, so we don’t know what it’s from, but I’ll have to take his word for its accuracy. The words as he presents them, however, do not support faith alone; quite the contrary. The pope writes:

Faith is looking at Christ, entrusting oneself to Christ, being united to Christ, conformed to Christ, to his life [which entails works, which he equates with faith]. And the form, the life of Christ, is love [love involves works and action as well]; hence to believe is to conform to Christ [works] and to enter into his love. So it is that in the Letter to the Galatians in which he primarily developed his teaching on justification St Paul speaks of faith that works through love (cf. Gal 5:14). [exactly; the Catholic position, and not harmonious with Protestant soteriology! Works cannot be formally separated from the overall equation] [my bracketed comments]

Related Reading 

William of Ockham, Nominalism, Luther, & Early Protestant Thought [10-3-02; abridged on 10-10-17]

*
Medieval Catholic Corruption: Main Cause of Protestant Revolt? [6-2-03; revised slightly: 1-20-04; 10-10-17]
*
Luther Film (2003): Detailed Catholic Critique [10-28-03; abridged with revised links on 3-6-17]
*
*
*
*
Critique of Ten Exaggerated Claims of the “Reformation” [10-31-17; its 500th anniversary date]
*
Papal Infallibility Doctrine: History (Including Luther’s Dissent at the Leipzig Disputation in 1519) (Related also to the particular circumstances of the origins of sola Scriptura) [10-8-07]
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*

*
*****

*

Practical Matters: Perhaps some of my 4,500+ free online articles (the most comprehensive “one-stop” Catholic apologetics site) or fifty-three books have helped you (by God’s grace) to decide to become Catholic or to return to the Church, or better understand some doctrines and why we believe them.
*
Or you may believe my work is worthy to support for the purpose of apologetics and evangelism in general. If so, please seriously consider a much-needed financial contribution. I’m always in need of more funds: especially monthly support. “The laborer is worthy of his wages” (1 Tim 5:18, NKJV). 1 December 2021 was my 20th anniversary as a full-time Catholic apologist, and February 2022 marked the 25th anniversary of my blog.
*
PayPal donations are the easiest: just send to my email address: apologistdave@gmail.com. You’ll see the term “Catholic Used Book Service”, which is my old side-business. To learn about the different methods of contributing, including 100% tax deduction, etc., see my page: About Catholic Apologist Dave Armstrong / Donation InformationThanks a million from the bottom of my heart!
*
***
*

Photo credit: Portrait of Martin Luther (1528), by Lucas Cranach the Elder (1472-1553) [public domain / Wikimedia Commons]
*

***

Summary: I take on a sermon about the essential points of the Protestant so-called “Reformation”, by Nathan Rinne, and show that Catholicism is more biblical & historical.

 

September 14, 2023

Mortgage Interest / Inflation / Taxes / “Rainy Day” Fundraiser

Day Four: Fifteen Books That I Have Edited
*
*
I habitually say that I have “written” 54 books (this latest tally includes my book-length debate with a Calvinist on justification), but that’s not precisely accurate, since I only edited fifteen of those books, leaving 39 that I actually “wrote” myself.
*
Today I want to present little summaries of these fifteen edited books, to give readers and followers an idea of the scope and range of my research / writing projects.
*
*
Collection of writings from the Church fathers that exhibit support of distinctively Catholic doctrines and rejection of distinctively Protestant ones.
*
2) The Wisdom of Mr. Chesterton: The Very Best Quotes, Quips, and Cracks from the Pen of G. K. Chesterton (completed Oct. 2008; “officially” published Dec. 2009 by TAN Books / St. Benedict Press)
*
Collection of quotations from the great writer who is widely considered the preeminent Christian and Catholic apologist in the first third of the 20th century.
*
3) Bible Proofs for Catholic Truths: A Source Book for Apologists and Inquirers (August 2009; published by Sophia Institute Press)
*
Over 2,000 Bible verses presented in their entirety and specifically categorized in order to provide abundant biblical support for various Catholic doctrines. Only a small amount of “summary” writings of my own.
*
4) The Quotable Newman: A Definitive Guide to His Central Thoughts and Ideas (completed Aug. 2011; published Oct. 2012 by Sophia Institute Press; Foreword by Joseph Pearce)
*
Collection of quotations from this giant of 19th century Christianity: a brilliant thinker, preacher, apologist, teacher and famous convert to Catholicism.
*
Arguments from 12 great apologists: More, Erasmus, Suárez, Francis de Sales, Bossuet, Pascal, Wiseman, Ullathorne, Benson, Gibbons, Prat, and Adam.
*
6) The Quotable Wesley (completed May 2012; published April 2014 by Beacon Hill Press, a Protestant publisher)
*
Quotations from the wise and spiritual Anglican founder of Methodism, and zealous Christian reformer and evangelist; many affinities with Catholicism.
*
Quotations from St. Augustine: widely considered the greatest Church father, and often claimed as the direct forerunner of Reformed Protestantism.
*
8 )
 The Quotable Summa Theologica (Jan. 2013)
*
A helpful alphabetical summary of the theological ideas and arguments of St. Thomas Aquinas’ masterwork, designed to make his thought more accessible.
*
Writings of eight Doctors of the Church: Basil, John Chrysostom, Gregory Nazianzen, Athanasius, Cyril of Alexandria, Ephraim, Cyril of Jerusalem, & John Damascene.
*
290 more pages of quotes on a wide variety of topics from the 19th century Churchman, with emphasis on his personal letters, and lesser-known topics.
*
A “biblical catechism.” The idea is simple but unique: 1001 questions are “answered” with a Bible passage: with 18 broad categories and 200 sub-topics. I wrote only in brief introductory questions: all leading to a biblical passage. So I painstakingly organized it, but the “star” is the Bible itself. It’s also available in Spanish and French.
*
Compiled from fourteen classic Catholic mystics and contemplatives or works, drawn from 22 books, compiled under 215 categories, chronologically by date.
*
My “own” NT!: a “selection” from two Elizabethan era Bibles (KJV / Rheims), and four British Victorian-era versions (Moffatt / 20th Century / Young’s Literal / Weymouth).
*
Collection of Luther statements that Catholics would agree with. Nine broad sections and 113 individual categories, arranged chronologically within each category.
*
Almost a “systematic theology” from Cardinal Newman, by use of many topical categories. Of particular usefulness for possible converts, as well as “uncertain” Catholics.
*
The links to all these books provide much information, samples, and purchase information. Your generous financial support and shares and likes and comments and prayers and word of mouth recommendations help make all of this work possible. I can’t do it without you.
*
I solicit only very rarely (as my regular followers / readers are well aware) but I’m in a financial place at the moment (through no fault of my own, but things like inflation and cars prematurely dying), where I have no choice. I explained all of that in my first fundraiser post, dated September 6th.
*
Here’s the link to donation information, including 100% tax-deductible option, should you prefer that. If you think my work is worthwhile, and/or especially if it has helped you personally, please seriously consider supporting it with a generous contribution or commitment to a monthly recurring donation (even $10 or $20 a month is very helpful).
*
*******************************
*
Day Five: Sixteen Free Books That I Offer
*
Recently, I decided to offer 13 of my books for free (as PDF files). And there are three more “books” that I offer in online links (one being five volumes long). It’s another example of many of how I keep putting out material at no cost to inquirers. I’m happy to do so. At the same time I do hope that some people will “recognize” such a willingness to offer free material, and financially support this ministry. You have the opportunity to do so today! Any amount is greatly appreciated.
*
NOTE: During this fundraiser only, the 13 books offered for free will be available for a minimum donation of $10 for three books.
*
1) Bible Proofs for Catholic Truths: A Source Book for Apologists and Inquirers (published in August 2009 by Sophia Institute Press)
*
Over 2,000 Bible verses presented in their entirety and specifically categorized in order to provide abundant biblical support for various Catholic doctrines.
*
Critical analysis of the biblical arguments(or lack thereof) in favor of “sola Scriptura” from the two men who are considered its very best historical defenders.
*
Perhaps the three “hottest” topics in Catholic apologetics are dealt with in a dialogue format, from actual discussions engaged in online with Protestants.
*
Many aspects of the journey to Catholicism examined, conversion stories, and the most extensive account of my own conversion (75 pages).
*
Thorough presentation of biblical arguments in favor of trinitarianism, the divinity or deity of Christ, and classic orthodox theism. Bible verses in their entirety.
*
Catholic and biblical analyses of the family-related issues of abortion, contraception, extramarital sex, divorce, homosexuality, and radical feminism.
*
7) More Biblical Evidence for Catholicism (Feb. 2002; Foreword by Dr. Scott Hahn)
*
Biblical arguments in support of distinctively Catholic doctrinal positions, with an emphasis on informality and dialogue; mostly drawn from real discussions.
*
Selection of some of the best of my numerous theological and apologetic arguments, on a wide variety of issues: always emphasizing the Bible.
*
Why does the Catholic Church and her doctrines appear different in many ways from the early Church? Development of doctrine is a crucial explanatory key.
Multi-faceted commentary on the various flaws and errors of Protestantism, in the style of Pascals Pensees: categorized brief thoughts or sayings.
*
Critique of two very serious errors: that Catholicism is not truly Christian, and that one can pick and choose or modify Catholic doctrines as they so choose.
*
12) Mere Christian Apologetics (Sep. 2002)
*
A work of general Christian apologetics, without Catholic “distinctives”: intended as an introductory treatment of many of the basic apologetics issues.
*
Devoted to an apologetic of general Christianity, over against secularism, agnosticism, and atheism; demonstrating that Christianity is rational and plausible.
*
Compilation of 307 articles of mine for the National Catholic Register (29 September 2016 to 30 August 2023): enough material for five 215-page books (about 3 1/2 pages for each 1000-word article). This is a complete catechetical and apologetical explanation of the Catholic faith)
*
We have a huge task in defending Holy Scripture in light of a rapidly growing, militant and condescending anti-theist brand of atheism and an aggressive anti-traditional secularism in general. They’re demanding (not always sincerely!) “evidence” and those who would or do believe want to see reason and science harmonized with faith, and I believe apologists can provide both things, and solidly so, in terms of arguments that can withstand scrutiny.
*
The answers theists and Christians can provide are, I believe (perhaps surprisingly), solid and strong, very exciting, faith- and confidence-building, and informative. I’m not the “expert” here; I’m simply a lay Christian apologist discovering wonderful things about the Bible, archaeology, and history, and I’m thrilled and privileged to be able to share them with you: 100 sections of immersion in “Bible paradise” for those who love Holy Scripture, as I do, or those (believers or nonbelievers) who read out of curiosity and openness to being persuaded by the scientific and historical evidence presented.
*
16) Justification Debate (vs. Calvinist Francisco Tourinho) (Sep. 2023)
*
I recently concluded a huge debate on this topic, which will soon be published in a paperback in Portugese in Brazil. The English version consists of my replies and most of Francisco’s text as well (with links to his complete texts). When this fundraiser is done I’ll put up a web page with all those links. “Faith Alone” (sola fide) is one of the two great “pillars” of the so-called “Reformation” along with “Scripture Alone” (sola Scriptura), and I believe that I thoroughly disprove it, with scores and scores of scriptural prooftexts.
*
See the links provided to all these books, for much information, samples, and purchase information. Your generous financial support and shares and likes and comments and prayers and word of mouth recommendations help make all of this work possible. I can’t do it without you.
*
I explained my financial situation in my first fundraiser post, dated September 6th.
*
See donation information, including 100% tax-deductible option, should you prefer that. If you think my work is worthwhile, and/or especially if it has helped you personally, please seriously consider supporting it with a generous contribution or commitment to a monthly recurring donation (even $10 or $20 a month is very helpful).
*
Thanks as always for reading and God bless you!
*
Summary: Explanation of the rationale and need for funds to support Dave Armstrong’s full-time apologetics apostolate. Please seriously consider a generous donation today!
July 3, 2023

Jim Anderson appears to be a Presbyterian, and is a former Catholic anti-Catholic. The following exchange occurred on a public Facebook page, below a shared meme that I had posted, regarding Catholic liturgy. Jim’s words will be in blue. This is a continuation of the exchange: Dialogue on Meritorious Works & the Gospel (6-30-23).

*****

Dave, speaking to yourself is not a good sign. Please lose the extreme arrogance, and note that I said that I don’t hang around on Facebook waiting for people to comment, but have other priorities.
*
Dave, you spent a lot of time throwing out a lot of comments, and links, likely none of which I will go to, since I have read practically every argument that official or unofficial Catholicism makes, but since you seem so focused on selling everything (per Matthew 10), we can remain there if you prefer. You said that it doesn’t apply to you (a “special situation”) and you haven’t sold everything.
*
You’re not the only one I’m writing to. I take the opportunity to educate the public about these matters. Others may choose to read what you ignore, since you [choke] already know everything about Catholicism and all of the arguments that her defenders make. That being the case, why is it I have to ask you three times to answer simple questions about one Bible scene?

*
Dave, do you think that Jesus was using the “sell everything” as a general requirement for salvation, or a specific test of the young rule? If the former, you are doomed, by your own admission, since you haven’t sold everything.

*
I already answered that above (twice):
*
1) “I never asserted that selling all of one’s possessions is required of *everyone*. You have simply erroneously projected that onto me and (possibly) the Catholic position. The parable of the talents and many other passages contradict such an assertion. So, nice try. Jesus told this one person that a work was required for his salvation. How can this be? How does it square with your unbiblical, extreme ‘absolutely no works or merit’ position?”
2) “Note that this isn’t required of every man to do. It’s not a general rule of Christianity. But for the rich young ruler, it was an absolute necessity. Most commentators think that it was because the ruler had made money his idol, putting it above God in his allegiance. That’s why he had to part with it; so that God would occupy the highest place in his life. In any event, it is a requirement for his salvation. Once again, it is a good work that is made central.”
*
If the latter, then one cannot then generalize that works are needed for salvation, as Pelagius and the Catholic catechism said.
*
Already answered that, too, twice:
*
1) “If you say, then, that this passage is irrelevant for all people, since it was a unique situation, then I counter with Matthew 25 (already presented) which has to do with all of us at the Judgment, and with 48 other passages regarding works and their relation to salvation.”
[Note: I highlighted and cited at length Matthew 25 in particular and several others from my list of 50]
*
2) “This is also notable in illustrating that salvation is not a cookie-cutter matter. What is required for one person (in terms of works that exhibit faith) may not be for the next.”
*
The fact that you weren’t aware that I had answered these questions, proves that you’re not even reading my comments. This is a constant annoyance in “dialogues” with anti-Catholics as well. One gives a reply and it’s like it doesn’t even register and one is forced to repeat what was already stated: making for tedium for poor, unfortunate readers. The other tactic is attempting to switch the topic, in order to evade difficult topics.
*
If the latter, then one cannot then generalize that works are needed for salvation, as Pelagius and the Catholic catechism said. And, do you notice the “follow me” at the end of all that?
*
There is indeed a consistent message of salvation that Jesus taught. He is God. He came down from heaven. He is the Messiah, prophesied in the writings of old, the word of God, throughout history. And He emphasized, over and over and over, that one must believe in Him to be saved. Belief. True, sincere, total belief. That’s more than the demons, who only believed that He was God. One must believe that He is the Heir of all things, the One through Whom the world was created, the Exact imprint of God’s nature, the perfect High Priest, the Messiah, the only One who can forgive sins, by His perfect sacrifice on the cross, accomplished in history (“once for all”). Completely done, and wholly sufficient. You said you have questions. They tend to get buried in your many posts, so please kindly ask them again, numbering them, and not posting dozens of unrelated or repetitive comments that get things lost. Thanks.
*
What are your questions? Number them. I am happy to continue on the topics you present, which are contradictory in your own opinion, but you seem insistent on the questions you have, so please present them clearly, numbered.
*
For the fourth time:
*
When Jesus said, and advised, “You lack one thing; go, sell what you have, and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me” (Mk 10:21), was that 1) salvific, and 2) a [good] work, and 3) a meritorious work? Do you need it in all caps? What is this, The Twilight Zone?
*
Dave, thanks for clearly asking the questions so it is clear. I will bypass the snark, because that’s just how Catholics are.
*
What you see as “snark” is a semi-humorous barb on my part due to the frustration of having to repeat something four times, that was perfectly clear the first time. It’s absurd. Once should be enough. You clearly attempted to avoid the questions, so I kept asking until you answered, because I don’t play games in discussions. If you want to have a serious discussion, great; then respond to provocative questions coming from your dialogical opponent (just as I have to yours: at great length), rather than seek to evade, change the subject, and insult: all of which you have tried without success, because none of that works with me.
*
Of course, I recognize that you ask them not because you actually want to know the answers, but to take whatever I say, disagree with it, and make some sort of Catholic point. So, just be up front and make that point now, if you would be so kind.
*
I converted from evangelicalism to Catholicism and have undergone several other major conversions in my life. I am always open to being convinced and to changing my mind. What I asked were socratic questions (something Jesus often did, too), that flowed from your denial that this passage teaches Catholic soteriology. If you want to take a position I consider unwarranted, and discuss it with me, then expect to be grilled and questioned. I’m an apologist. You’ll have to defend it. If that’s not to your liking, just say so and we’re done. “If you can’t stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen.” You came on like gangbusters at the beginning, so I figured that you could take it.
*
Here are the answers for your questions.
*
“When Jesus said, and advised, “You lack one thing; go, sell what you have, and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me” (Mt 10:21), was that 1) salvific?
*
No, of course not. Man cannot absolve the debt of sin that he was born with my simply selling material things. Jesus in this passage was testing the man’s belief, his commitment. You yourself said that this wasn’t salvific. There aren’t 100 different gospels, different paths to salvation. There is but one, so Jesus did not teach that this work saves this person, but not others.
*
It was certainly, undeniably salvific. Remember, the exchange started with the man asking Jesus: “Good Teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?” (Mk 10:17). That’s what it’s all about. Since that “sets the scene,” therefore, how Jesus answers must necessarily have to do with what we do that merits eternal life and eschatological salvation.
*
You say that Jesus “was testing the man’s belief, his commitment.” Yes, of course He was. He said that he had to give away all that he owned in order to be saved. That was the test, and the answer to his question. It’s clear that grace enabled him to keep the commandments (as Jesus inquired about). It’s equally clear that the man had faith, since he had observed all the commandments since his youth. He was following God and His commandments.
*
What remained was his idolatry to money: the besetting sin of rich and wealthy people. He couldn’t be saved and still have something in his heart that he placed above allegiance to God. And how would he rectify that? It wasn’t by kneeling and saying the sinner’s prayer, and telling Jesus how great and wonderful He was.
*
That didn’t cut it, since Jesus said, “Why do you call me `Lord, Lord,’ and not do what I tell you?” (Lk 6:46). So this was an instance of Jesus telling a person to do something, and to do a thing that would be a requirement for him to be saved. If he does the good work, he’ll be saved, because Jesus said the result of doing so was that he “will have treasure in heaven.” This was the one thing he lacked, according to Jesus; so he had to do it. Therefore, it was a required good work, without which he could not and would not be saved or enter heaven.
“and 2) a [good] work?”
*
It depends on your definition of “good” and that’s not hedging, it’s acknowledging that what God defines as “good” may be different than how men define it. You know this, so hopefully there is no controversy here. Giving help to the poor is a good thing. 
*
Well, that is easily answered in this instance because Jesus defined the thing as the work or action that would allow this man to go to heaven and be saved. Therefore, it must be “good” because certainly a bad work or action (a sin) could not fill that function. So this is a no-brainer. Of course it is a good work, according to God the Son.
*
Your problem and dilemma is that you maintain the standard Calvinist- or Baptist- or evangelical-type position that works have absolutely nothing to do with salvation. But the Bible and Jesus assert that they have a necessary connection, alongside (always) faith and grace. They can’t be removed from the equation. I have collected 50 passages that prove this undeniable connection with regard to going to heaven, and fifty more from Paul alone that teach the intrinsic harmony and togetherness of faith, grace, and works. You can try to ignore and dismiss and rationalize all that away but it’s just not possible.
*
“and 3) a meritorious work?”
*
Not for salvation, no.
*
It’s impossible to assert that because it is directly contrary to what Jesus taught: that this work would be what allowed the man to be saved, alongside his faith and God’s enabling grace that lies behind any and every good thing we do.
*
But, whether for the saved believer, or the unsaved and condemned person, works are “rewarded”. The saved believer receives crowns in heaven based on his or her works, but that is after they are saved.
*
The unsaved, condemned person gets their “reward” that all deserve at birth: an eternity in hell, regardless of whether they give to the poor all their lives. Good works, the ones that are worthy and obedient to God, are those that are done by the saved believer. Ephesians 2:10, but there are lots of teachings on this. This answers your questions fully, and completely.
*
We do indeed receive differential rewards in heaven. Both sides agree about that. But that’s not what is in play here. The question was how a man can attain heaven, not just rewards in heaven. Jesus’ answer proved that the man would be in heaven if he did the required work. It’s a compelling proof of Catholic soteriology and an unanswerable disproof of Protestant soteriology.
*
Jesus didn’t say that the ruler was already saved and that he’d get more crowns in heaven by giving away his riches. He said that doing so would be the immediate or last thing that saved him, per the original inquiry of how to be saved. You’re simply projecting Protestant traditions of men onto the passage when they aren’t there at all. That’s eisegesis, not exegesis.
*
How would a Catholic properly, biblically answer the unbiblical, sloganistic questions of certain evangelical Protestants, like Presbyterian Matt Slick, who runs the CARM website? He asked me: “If you were to die tonight and face judgment and God were to ask you why He should let you into heaven, what would you tell Him? Just curious.”
*
He’s completely well-intentioned and has the highest motivations. He desires that folks should be saved. But he is dead wrong in his assumptions, when they are weighed against the overwhelming, (far as I can tell) unanimous biblical record. Our answer to his question and to God when we stand before Him, could incorporate any one or all of the following 50 responses: all perfectly biblical, and many right from the words of God Himself:
*
1) I am characterized by righteousness.
2) I have integrity.
3) I’m not wicked.
4) I’m upright in heart.
5) I’ve done good deeds.
6) I have good ways.
7) I’m not committing abominations.
8 ) I have good conduct.
9) I’m not angry with my brother.
10) I’m not insulting my brother.
11) I’m not calling someone a fool.
12) I have good fruits.
13) I do the will of God.
14) I hear Jesus’ words and do them.
15) I endured to the end.
16) I fed the hungry.
17) I provided drink to the thirsty.
18) I clothed the naked.
19) I welcomed strangers.
20) I visited the sick.
21) I visited prisoners.
22) I invited the poor and the maimed to my feast.
23) I’m not weighed down with dissipation.
24) I’m not weighed down with drunkenness.
25) I’m not weighed down with the cares of this life.
26) I’m not ungodly.
27) I don’t suppress the truth.
28) I’ve done good works.
29) I obeyed the truth.
30) I’m not doing evil.
31) I have been a “doer of the law.”
32) I’ve been a good laborer and fellow worker with God.
33) I’m unblameable in holiness.
34) I’ve been wholly sanctified.
35) My spirit and soul and body are sound and blameless.
36) I know God.
37) I’ve obeyed the gospel.
38) I’ve shared Christ’s sufferings.
39) I’m without spot or blemish.
40) I’ve repented.
41) I’m not a coward.
42) I’m not faithless.
43) I’m not polluted.
44) I’m not a murderer.
45) I’m not a fornicator.
46) I’m not a sorcerer.
47) I’m not an idolater.
48) I’m not a liar.
49) I invited the lame to my feast.
50) I invited the blind to my feast.

*

I understand your position. You believe that Jesus gave perhaps many different paths to heaven, since when questioned, you acknowledged that you did not, in fact, sell all your possessions and give the money to the poor. You think that that means to salvation was just for one man. So, since I have accurately answered your questions (you disagree, but that only makes it a disagreement), please answer an important one for me.
So, since the entire bible is arguably contemporaneous, is there any message for the unsaved today that is the one gospel, the one path to salvation? And if so, what is it, in succinct terms?
*
The gospel:
*
Romans 1:16-17 For I am not ashamed of the gospel: it is the power of God for salvation to every one who has faith, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. [17] For in it the righteousness of God is revealed through faith for faith; as it is written, “He who through faith is righteous shall live.”
*
Paul cites Habakkuk 2:4: “Behold, he whose soul is not upright in him shall fail, but the righteous shall live by his faith.”
*
So this is faith and works, that go hand in hand, as in 99 other passages I have documented. Paul happens not to mention grace here, but of course he often does; for example, here is Paul discussing both grace and faith for justification and salvation:
*
Romans 3:24-26 they are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus, [25] whom God put forward as an expiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins; [26] it was to prove at the present time that he himself is righteous and that he justifies him who has faith in Jesus.
*
But in the chapter before he also stressed works as part of the equation:
*
Romans 2:13 For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified.
*
So, as I have reiterated again and again, for Paul, salvation is by grace, through faith, which by its very nature is manifested and worked-through by good works, that proceed from this same grace and faith. All of his passages considered together undeniably teach this combination, not faith alone.
*
And of course Jesus agrees with this. He talks about faith in Him, and also many times about works being required for salvation. He doesn’t mention grace, but John 1:16-17 states: “And from his fulness have we all received, grace upon grace. For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.”
*
You said something very profound, perhaps unintentionally:
*
So, as I have reiterated again and again, for Paul, salvation is by grace, through faith, which by its very nature is manifested and worked-through by good works, that proceed from this same grace and faith.
*
Yes, salvation is by faith, belief, in Christ alone and His perfect sacrifice on the cross. That saving faith, which is given by God’s grace and not merited, is manifested in the fruits of salvation, which is works. Thank you. You have now stated biblical doctrine on salvation, though you don’t recognize the many texts that you are told mean that you can earn salvation, but are actually a description of the saved believer. The entire book of 1 John, for example, tells the saved believer of his or her assurance, and what they now have, but it also serves as a test for unbelievers.

*

You still don’t understand our view (or the biblical one). Don’t feel bad. Many many Protestants do not, because they’ve been taught so many caricatures and twisted versions of Catholic soteriology. It’s grace + faith, and an intrinsic and inevitable part of genuine faith — without which it is “dead” — is works. In that specific sense, these good works proceeding from both grace and faith are meritorious and necessary in the overall scenario of how one is saved and goes to heaven.
*
I have not stated Protestant soteriological doctrine (that I used to believe as strongly as you do). You mistakenly think I stumbled into it because you don’t grasp the Catholic position on these matters, and you think I don’t understand yours. In fact I understand it way better than you do because I was an evangelical Protestant, too, was an apologist then as well, and have studied all sides of this issue for the past 32 years as a Catholic, and had innumerable debates and written books about it.
*
Protestants separate good works into a separate, optional category, under the name of “sanctification” and claim that — while they are praiseworthy and important and ought to be present — they have nothing whatsoever to do with salvation. And they claim that they are done in gratitude to God for a salvation already attained (faith alone / imputed / extrinsic justification). You know the playbook and the talking points well, and have stated them in a textbook manner. There was no need because I already know what Protestants teach about it.
*
My 100 passages, which you still blow over and don’t seriously consider, are not saying that. They tie works directly in as one necessary cause of salvation, alongside grace and faith. They don’t make works optional in the question of salvation. I showed, for example, that in the rich young ruler scene, the man’s salvation was directly dependent on whether he gave up his riches, which is a good and meritorious work (all of which you have irrationally denied), not simply mental acceptance of a doctrine in his head. The NT isn’t Protestant. Jesus and Paul would flunk out of Protestant seminaries.
*
The rich young ruler is a quintessential example of what I’m talking about (that’s why it’s such a superb, unanswerable Catholic argument). He was saved by grace, through faith (he kept the commandments — works again — because he was faithful), and this faith would have also expressed its authenticity in an act of giving up his possessions (had he actually chosen that course), which would prove that he is no longer making riches his idol, and this would then allow him to go to heaven. It was the only thing he lacked, said Jesus.
*
An “optional” thing is not described as a thing that one “lacks.” If I had chocolate ice cream for lunch, Jesus wouldn’t have told me, “one thing you lack: you didn’t have vanilla ice cream for lunch.” That’s absurd because one doesn’t talk like that about optional choices.
*
In case anyone missed the point (and you did), Jesus states again that the whole thing had to do with how one is saved and how one goes to heaven:
*
Mark 10:23-25 And Jesus looked around and said to his disciples, “How hard it will be for those who have riches to enter the kingdom of God!” [24] And the disciples were amazed at his words. But Jesus said to them again, “Children, how hard it is to enter the kingdom of God! [25] It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.”
*
In other words, He was expanding upon the meaning of what just happened. The rich young ruler asked how he could go to heaven. Jesus told him how (do a good work proving that he had forsaken idolatry) and the man refused. So Jesus commented how hard it was for rich people to go to heaven. This one declined his chance to do so by not following Jesus’ advice.
*
Yet you sit there and pretend that it has nothing to do with his salvation; only his rewards in heaven. Those notions are not in the text at all. If in fact they were, Jesus would have said, instead, something like, “How hard it will be for those who have riches to receive great rewards in heaven. It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to receive great rewards in heaven.”
*
The entire scene would have read vastly differently if Jesus taught faith alone like Protestants do. He would have simply told the man to have faith in Him, and never would have mentioned the commandments or giving away his riches, just like you would likely never talk that way out on the street witnessing and sharing the gospel (as I have done hundreds of times).
*
It’s extraordinarily clear what was going on there and what it means for soteriology. Only those who already irrationally, inconsistently hold to an unbiblical tradition of men fail to see it, because they refuse to see it. Jesus talked about this sort of thing:
*
John 9:40-41 Some of the Pharisees near him heard this, and they said to him, “Are we also blind?” [41] Jesus said to them, “If you were blind, you would have no guilt; but now that you say, `We see,’ your guilt remains.

*

Concerning your list, all of which are things that were contemporaneous to Jesus’ teaching, and while I believe that the bible is meant to everyone today, your hermeneutic may dispute that.
*
Dave, this is not a snark, or humorous in any way, but your list uses the word “I” in each and every reason that you provide. According to you, your salvation is earned, merited by you. I would humbly submit that your works cannot erase the sin debt that you were born with, and which you earn every day. God is holy. You are not, and thus deserving of an eternity in hell as punishment….just like each and every created human who ever lived, myself included.
*
There is a consistent teaching by Jesus Christ that tells us how we can be reconciled with God, and avoid the eternity of excruciating punishment in hell that we deserve. It is not clear that you know it. It is belief in Him alone, and in His “once for all” perfect sacrifice on the cross.
*
2 Cor 5:21
John 6:37-44 (all of John 6, actually)
Romans 5:1-3
Ephesians 2:1-10
Titus 3:3-7
1 John 5:13

*

Once again, you miss the context and the point I was making by ignoring crucial points and distinctions, in your rush to “prove” that I and Catholics supposedly believe in a works salvation, that we deny. This is always how anti-Catholics argue, because they are ignorant regarding this matter and blissfully unaware of it.
*
I was initially responding to the classic Protestant evangelistic query (often expressed to Catholics). In this case, I cited the actual words to me, of Presbyterian anti-Catholic apologist Matt Slick of CARM: “If you were to die tonight and face judgment and God were to ask you why He should let you into heaven, what would you tell Him? Just curious.”
*
This is why all my answers begin with “I”. I just didn’t say “because” in every one. In other words, instead of answering “Because I did work x and work y,” etc. I just said, “I did x,” “I did y,” etc. In doing so I was citing Scripture directly in every case (50 of ’em), in order to illustrate how the Bible actually answers this question. It turned out to be quite differently from what Slick and Protestants would have predicted.
*
But Catholics don’t believe in salvation by works alone. We believe in the combination of grace-faith-meritorious works that always proceed from grace and genuine faith, as I have explained, and will not bother doing so again. That is not Pelagianism. And if you can’t figure out what the difference is, that fault lies with you, not with us. You’re blinded by your false and unbiblical “either/or” premises. We explain it till we’re blue in the face. I have at least forty articles just on this point alone, if you want to get up to speed.
*
But you have already said you won’t read my links, because you know everything about us, so . . . “You can lead the horse to water, but you can’t make it drink.”
*
You do not understand our teaching. I’ve never once met an anti-Catholic in 32 years who did. You are woefully in error about what we actually teach.
*
If anyone wants to understand Catholic soteriology, I have made it easy for you:
I trust, if you are hermeneutically consistent, that you have sold all your possessions.
*
I’ve never been wealthy, and never will be (as first a Protestant evangelist and a full-time Catholic apologist since 2001). Therefore, riches have never been my idol, so I don’t have to get rid of everything I own in order to get my priorities straight. I have many other sins God is working on, but temptation to great riches and making them my idol has never been a problem. If it were, God would require that of me, too, since Jesus said idolaters would not go to heaven (Rev 22:15; cf. 21:8).
*
And Jesus taught (see John 6) that it is belief in Him alone that saves. “Repent and believe” is the gospel message. What is the will of the Father? John 6:40. Who is saved? John 6:37-39. Can there is assurance of salvation? Same verses.
*
Jesus taught that belief in Him saved, if it is coupled with good works (which He referred to, I believe, more times than to faith). Both are the products of God’s grace. You keep bringing up John 6. I don’t know why. It teaches that reception of the Body and Blood of Jesus (transubstantiation) in the Holy Eucharist will save one:
*
John 6:51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven; if any one eats of this bread, he will live for ever; and the bread which I shall give for the life of the world is my flesh.
*
John 6:53-58 So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you; [54] he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. [55] For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. [56] He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him. [57] As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats me will live because of me. [58] This is the bread which came down from heaven, not such as the fathers ate and died; he who eats this bread will live for ever.
*
Because “Many of his disciples” thought that this was “a hard saying”(6:60), they “drew back and no longer went about with him” (6:66: quite appropriately). It’s the only time in the NT besides Judas that a disciple was said to forsake Him, and it was because of the Real Presence in the Holy Eucharist: and so many folks today disbelieve in this express teaching, and thus possibly endanger their salvation. You’ll say it’s all merely symbolic talk. Nonsense. See my articles:
*
John 6: Literal Eucharist Interpretation (Analogical Cross-Referencing and Insufficient Counter-Arguments) [8-15-09]
*
John 6, the Eucharist, & Parables (Dialogue) [8-16-09]
*
John 6 & Lack of Faith in the Real Presence of Jesus in the Eucharist as a Parallel to Doubting Disciples [2-14-11]
*
Is John 6 About Holy Communion?: A Brief Summary for Those Who Deny the Eucharistic Connection Altogether [3-2-16]
*
Vs. James White #5: Real Eucharistic Presence or Symbolism? [9-20-19]
*
Apostasy of Disciples (Jn 6:66) & Protestant Commentaries [1-28-21]
*
Was Jesus Unclear in John 6 (Eucharist)? (vs. Jason Engwer) [11-16-21]
*
These are all listed on My Eucharist web page.
*
You’re not grappling with the many relevant Bible passages I brought up, which has universally been the case with any Protestant who interacts at all with this reasoning, for fifteen years now, so we’re done here.
*
Dialogue isn’t just one person presenting their view, and the other presenting theirs, and never the twain shall meet, and ships passing in the night. No; it’s interacting directly with the opponent’s arguments and arguing for another position that is sincerely believed to be superior. I don’t do a one-way / double standard routine, where I interact with all of my opponent’s arguments, but they ultimately ignore mine (or give one answer and refuse to address my counter-replies, as you did). I don’t have time for much of that. But I’ll do it for a short time, for teaching purposes.
*
You refuse to do a true dialogue, so I have invested enough energy into this, and it’s time to move on. It did at least result in two helpful educational dialogues for my blog. I heartily thank you for that. I’ve come up with some new fresh biblical and logical arguments, too, which is a good thing, and they came about as a result of your intransigence and profound lack of understanding of Catholicism.
*
God bless you.
*
Last thing:
*
You seem tied up in wealth as preventing salvation. God never once teaches that the wealthy cannot enter heaven.
*
1. I’m “tied up” with it in exactly the same sense that Jesus was: it’s evil and will lead to hell if it becomes an idol.
*
2. I never said that no rich man can enter heaven. I have made the previous point, and say that it is “difficult” for that to happen, precisely as Jesus stated.
*
I wrote on July 1, 2014 in the first comment under my own Facebook post:
*
Wealth is not bad in and of itself. Abraham and Solomon were wealthy; Jesus was buried in a rich man’s tomb. Greed, materialism, using and abusing the poor because of great wealth, and idolatry of money are bad.
*
Related Reading
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
Grace, Faith, Works, & Judgment: A Scriptural Exposition [12-16-09; reformulated & abridged on 3-15-17]

Bible on Participation in Our Own Salvation (Always Enabled by God’s Grace)[1-3-10]

Monergism in Initial Justification is Catholic Doctrine [1-7-10]

Justification: Not by Faith Alone, & Ongoing (Romans 4, James 2, and Abraham’s Multiple Justifications) [10-15-11]

Catholic & Calvinist Agreement on Justification & Works [2012]

Scripture on Being Co-Workers with God for Salvation [2013]

New Testament Epistles on Bringing About Further Sanctification and Even Salvation By Our Own Actions [7-2-13]

Dialogue on Faith and Works and the Relation of Each to the Final Judgment (vs. Bethany Kerr) [10-10-13]

“Catholic Justification” in James & Romans [11-18-15]

Philippians 2:12 & “Work[ing] Out” One’s Salvation [1-26-16]

***

Practical Matters: Perhaps some of my 4,300+ free online articles (the most comprehensive “one-stop” Catholic apologetics site) or fifty-three books have helped you (by God’s grace) to decide to become Catholic or to return to the Church, or better understand some doctrines and why we believe them.
*
Or you may believe my work is worthy to support for the purpose of apologetics and evangelism in general. If so, please seriously consider a much-needed financial contribution. I’m always in need of more funds: especially monthly support. “The laborer is worthy of his wages” (1 Tim 5:18, NKJV). 1 December 2021 was my 20th anniversary as a full-time Catholic apologist, and February 2022 marked the 25th anniversary of my blog.
*
PayPal donations are the easiest: just send to my email address: apologistdave@gmail.com. You’ll see the term “Catholic Used Book Service”, which is my old side-business. To learn about the different methods of contributing, including 100% tax deduction, etc., see my page: About Catholic Apologist Dave Armstrong / Donation InformationThanks a million from the bottom of my heart!

***

Photo credit: Christ and the Rich Young Ruler (1889), by Heinrich Hofmann (1824-1911) [public domain / Wikimedia Commons]

***

Summary: Further exchanges with an anti-Catholic regarding meritorious works and the gospel, the rich young ruler, and about how Jesus Himself said we could be saved.

May 25, 2023

Eucharist & Sacrifice; Baptism; Salvation of Non-Christians(?); Confession; Theological Liberals (& Pope Francis); Ordination; Church Indefectibility 

The late Steve Hays (1959-2020) was a Calvinist (and anti-Catholic) apologist, who was very active on his blog, called Triablogue (now continued by Jason Engwer). His 695-page self-published book, Catholicism a collection of articles from his site — has graciously been made available for free. On 9 September 2006, Hays was quite — almost extraordinarily — charitable towards me. He wrote then:

I don’t think I’ve ever accused him of being a traitor or apostate or infidel. . . . I have nothing to say, one way or the other, regarding his state of grace. But his sincerity is unquestionable. I also don’t dislike him. . . . I don’t think there’s anything malicious about Armstrong—unlike some people who come to mind. In addition, I don’t think I’ve ever said he was unintelligent. For the record, it’s obvious that Armstrong has a quick, nimble mind. 

Two-and-a-half years later, starting in April 2009 and up through December 2011 (in the following quotations) his opinion radically changed, and he claimed that I have “an evil character,” am “actually evil,” “ego-maniac, narcissist,” “idolater,” “self-idolater,” “hack who pretends to be a professional apologist,” given to “chicanery,” one who doesn’t “do any real research,” “a stalwart enemy of the faith . . .  no better than [the atheists] Richard Dawkins or Christopher Hitchens,” with an intent to “destroy faith in God’s word,” “schizophrenic,” “emotionally unhinged,” one who “doesn’t trust in the merit of Christ alone for salvation,” “has no peace of mind,” “a bipolar solipsist,” “split-personality,” and a “bad” man. He wasn’t one to mince words! See more gory details.

I feel no need whatsoever to reciprocate these silly and sinful insults. I just wanted the record to be known. I’ve always maintained that Hays was a very intelligent man, but habitually a sophist in methodology; sincere and well-meaning, but tragically and systematically wrong and misguided regarding Catholicism. That’s what I’m addressing, not the state of his heart and soul (let alone his eternal destiny). It’s a theological discussion. This is one of many planned critiques of his book (see my reasons why I decided to do this). Rather than list them all here, interested readers are directed to the “Steve Hays” section of my Anti-Catholicism web page, where they will all be listed. My Bible citations are from the RSV. Steve’s words will be in blue.

*****

[Chapter 4: Catholic Apologetics]

The counsel of Trent, part 2.

The NT sometimes uses sacrificial language for the eucharist because the eucharist is the new covenantal counterpart to the Passover. That doesn’t imply that the eucharist is sacrificial. Rather, that draws attention to the fact that Passover prefigures the eucharist. The eucharist replaces the Passover. [p. 120]

Let me try to follow this: if the NT language for the Eucharist uses sacrificial language, it proves that it’s not sacrificial, because it is the NT counterpart for the sacrificial Passover? Huh? If it didn’t have sacrificial language, then Hays would no doubt argue, “see! It’s not sacrificial!” But if it does use such language, Hays argues, “see! It’s not sacrificial!” Makes perfect sense, right? See my book chapter, The Sacrifice of the Mass: A Lamb . . . Slain [3-8-92; rev. May 1996]. St. Paul is quite clear:

1 Corinthians 10:16-21 The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not a participation in the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ? [17] Because there is one bread, we who are many are one body, for we all partake of the one bread. [18] Consider the people of Israel; are not those who eat the sacrifices partners in the altar? [19] What do I imply then? That food offered to idols is anything, or that an idol is anything? [20] No, I imply that what pagans sacrifice they offer to demons and not to God. I do not want you to be partners with demons. [21] You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons. You cannot partake of the table of the Lord and the table of demons.

1 Corinthians 11:23-30 For I received from the Lord what I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus on the night when he was betrayed took bread, [24] and when he had given thanks, he broke it, and said, “This is my body which is for you. Do this in remembrance of me.” [25] In the same way also the cup, after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me.” [26] For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes. [27] Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the body and blood of the Lord. [28] Let a man examine himself, and so eat of the bread and drink of the cup. [29] For any one who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment upon himself. [30] That is why many of you are weak and ill, and some have died.

Protestants (as with John 6) try to undermine and ignore the obvious realism of these passages, but they fail. It’s too obvious.

Moreover, Scripture makes metaphorical usage of sacrificial imagery. For instance, Paul uses sacrificial language in Rom 12:1, but that’s figurative rather than literal. He’s not advocating that Christians commit self-immolation. [p. 120]

But that’s a different use of the word “sacrifice” altogether, and so is irrelevant to this discussion. It’s similar to Hebrews 13:16: “Do not neglect to do good and to share what you have, for such sacrifices are pleasing to God.” W. E. Vine’s Expository Dictionary of NT Words defines the latter instance as “doing good to others and communicating with their needs.”

Jn 6 foreshadows the crucifixion (Jn 19) rather than the eucharist. Jesus is forecasting his death on the cross. [p. 120]

How does eating Jesus’ flesh and drinking His blood relate to the crucifixion? Hays is really straining at gnats here. Jesus in John 6 compares Himself to the manna in the wilderness:

John 6:48-51 I am the bread of life. [49] Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died. [50] This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that a man may eat of it and not die. [51] I am the living bread which came down from heaven; if any one eats of this bread, he will live for ever; and the bread which I shall give for the life of the world is my flesh.”

Jn 6 can’t refer to communion because Jesus says eating-drinking/believing-coming terminates hunger and thirst (v35). But communion doesn’t put an end to physical appetite. [p. 120]

John 6:35 Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; he who comes to me shall not hunger, and he who believes in me shall never thirst.

Jesus is obviously talking about spiritual things: whoever comes to Him (believes in Him, partakes in the Eucharist) won’t have spiritual thirst and hunger any longer. Hays, in his woodenly literal, fundamentalist-type “exegesis” completely misses this. Compare:

Matthew 5:6 Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they shall be satisfied.

John 4:14 but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst; the water that I shall give him will become in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life.”

John 7:37 . . . Jesus stood up and proclaimed, “If any one thirst, let him come to me and drink.”

So it must have reference to figurative consumption, which is permanently quenched and satiated. It other words: a metaphor for eternal life. [p. 120]

This is closer to the truth. Yes, those who come to and believe in Jesus will have eternal life. But they also obtain it through the Holy Eucharist; not merely belief in one’s head:

John 6:51 . . . if any one eats of this bread, he will live for ever; and the bread which I shall give for the life of the world is my flesh.

John 6:53-54 . . . unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you; [54] he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life . . .

John 6:56-58 He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him. [57] As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats me will live because of me. [58] This is the bread which came down from heaven, not such as the fathers ate and died; he who eats this bread will live for ever.”

For that matter, Catholics don’t think one-time communion is spiritually sufficient. Rather, Catholics are supposed to attend Mass at least once a week. It doesn’t put an end to spiritual hunger and thirst. [p. 121]

Jesus didn’t say it was a one-time thing. He was saying that this was a means to eternal life: partaking of His flesh, made present again at the Sacrifice of the Mass. Hays again employs a silly wooden literalism.  Jesus and Paul talked of partaking in the Eucharist “often” (1 Cor 11:25-26, above). And it’s done in “remembrance” of Jesus, which also strongly implies a regular observance (1 Cor 11:24-25, see above).

[M]odern Catholicism doesn’t regard baptism as essential to salvation. [p. 121]

Nonsense. Nothing has changed, as usual. Only in Hays’ head has the Catholic Church supposedly evolved into totally different belief-systems. It’s a fantasy of his own making. The Church has always held to baptismal regeneration and its being essential to salvation because it’s clearly and repeatedly taught in the Bible. See also the Catholic Catechism on baptism. At the same time the Church has always also recognized rare exceptions to the rule, and baptism of desire, etc.

Indeed, in modern Catholicism, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, and atheists can be saved. [p. 121]

Indeed, in the Bible, Paul alludes to the possibility of salvation for non-Christians:

Romans 2:13-16 For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified. [14] When Gentiles who have not the law do by nature what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. [15] They show that what the law requires is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or perhaps excuse them [16] on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.

There are many other “ecumenical” motifs in the Bible, such as Jesus and the Roman centurion:

Matthew 8:5-12 As he entered Caper’na-um, a centurion came forward to him, beseeching him [6] and saying, “Lord, my servant is lying paralyzed at home, in terrible distress.” [7] And he said to him, “I will come and heal him.” [8] But the centurion answered him, “Lord, I am not worthy to have you come under my roof; but only say the word, and my servant will be healed. [9] For I am a man under authority, with soldiers under me; and I say to one, `Go,’ and he goes, and to another, `Come,’ and he comes, and to my slave, `Do this,’ and he does it.” [10] When Jesus heard him, he marveled, and said to those who followed him, “Truly, I say to you, not even in Israel have I found such faith. [11] I tell you, many will come from east and west and sit at table with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven, [12] while the sons of the kingdom will be thrown into the outer darkness; there men will weep and gnash their teeth.”

We also have the story of Cornelius, the Roman centurion in Acts 10. He is described as “a devout man who feared God with all his household, gave alms liberally to the people, and prayed constantly to God” (10:2), and it’s recorded that an “angel of God” spoke to him (10:3, 7, 30-32), saying, “Your prayers and your alms have ascended as a memorial before God” (10:4). The Holy Spirit Himself told Peter that He had sent Cornelius’ three friends to him (10:17-20), and indeed the Holy Spirit “fell on” Cornelius and his friends (10:44-46). All of this was before he was baptized (10:47-48). Peter testifies: “Truly I perceive that God shows no partiality, but in every nation any one who fears him and does what is right is acceptable to him” (10:34-35).

So none of this is “new” (supposedly only after Vatican II) at all. It’s right in the Bible. The Church fathers (especially Augustine) wrote about it, and so did St. Thomas Aquinas (13th c.). If Hays had actually taken time to study these matters, he would have known this. But here I am correcting him, and educating those who have only learned about Catholicism from Hays or other anti-Catholics. Hays knows the truth now.

There is general agreement that there is no firm evidence for infant baptism before the latter part of the second century. This fact does not mean that it did not occur, but it does mean that supporters of the practice have a considerable chronological gap to account for. Many replace the historical silence by appeal to theological or sociological considerations. [p. 121]

I don’t know who’s agreeing to that, seeing that infant baptism is taught in the Bible (a strong deduction, but still, I contend, taught).

[P]ublic confession . . . [is] hardly equivalent to confessing your sins to a priest in private. [p. 122]

As so often, Hays can’t see the forest for the trees. The essence of confession is declaring sins and repentance to a clergyman. Whether it is public or private is secondary and not of the essence. So public confession is a legitimate evidence for confession. For the true-blue Protestant (with some exceptions), any confession to men at all is senseless, unnecessary, and anathema; all must confess to God only. But the Bible teaches the former, so they have to grapple with it somehow.

You just pick a parish with a sympathetic priest or bishop. That’s easy to find. Lots of liberal priests and bishops to choose from. [p. 123]

See how Hays always has to highlight the liberal dissidents (that every group is blessed with)? Why is it he never seems to say, “lots of orthodox, faithful priests and bishops to choose from”? If I were recommending a Protestant denomination to someone intent to remain Protestant, I would tell him to avoid liberal denominations like the plague, and I’d direct him to one that is honest and actually follows its own stated beliefs; that is, one that is serious about the Christian faith and not just playing games. But for Hays, when he thought of “Catholic” all he could see in his head — for whatever inexplicable reason — was “liberals / heterodox / dissidents.” It’s like shopping for tomatoes at the grocery store and always picking out the squishy, blemished, half-rotten ones, and saying “those represent what tomatoes are supposed to be! They’re the real tomatoes.”

He [Trent Horn] tries to prooftext holy orders from 1 Tim 4:14. But that inference is complicated by alternative explanations: [p. 123]

The passage talks about the “gift” that Timothy had, which “was given” to him “by prophetic utterance when the council of elders laid their hands upon” him. Sounds like it could be ordination to me. But if Hays wants to discount it, then we have “And his gifts were that some should be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers, to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ” (Eph 4:11-12). Those offices are called “gifts” as well, and “ministry” and working for the Church is present in context. Did Hays wish to argue that no one is ordained; that there are no pastors, elders, etc.?

One sinking ship–or many lifeboats?

Protestants were hellbound. And that’s the position Rome used to take regarding everybody who wasn’t in communion with Rome. [p. 127]

That’s a lie, as already explained.

But nowadays, the Magisterium is flirting with hopeful universalism. [p. 127]

That’s a lie, too. There is no universalism taught in Catholicism. Universal atonement, however, is taught (the possibility of any individual to obtain salvation, given certain conditions).

Another problem with his [some Catholic real or alleged apologist’s] tweets is bigotry. To judge by what he said, it seems highly unlikely that he’s had many, if any, conversations, with evangelical philosophers, theologians, Bible scholars, and church historians. His uninformed comments are a textbook case of prejudice. In addition, he’s like a man standing in front of a burning house, which happens to be his own house, while he lectures the neighbors on how their house is an eyesore. We watch him stand there, scolding us, while right behind him we see his own house in flames. [p. 127]

Another problem with Steve Hays’ critiques of Catholicism is bigotry. To judge by what he said, it seems highly unlikely that he’s had many, if any, conversations, with Catholic philosophers, theologians, Bible scholars, apologists, or church historians. His uninformed comments are a textbook case of prejudice. In addition, he’s like a man standing in front of a collection of burning houses, which happens to be his own neighborhood, while he lectures the neighbors on how their house is an eyesore. We watch him stand there, scolding us, while right behind him we see his own row of houses in flames.

Pope Francis is an aggressive modernist . . . [Catholicism] is on fire, and the sitting pope is the arsonist. . . . Francis is unweaving the Catholicism of Benedict XVI and John-Paul II. [pp. 127-128]

He’s not a “modernist” at all, which is, I guess, the reason that Hays doesn’t document this beyond all doubt. It’s what he wishes to be the case, and so he believes it in the face of the facts. First Hays asserts that post-Vatican II Catholicism is already modernist, universalistic, etc. Now he does an about-face and makes out that Popes John Paul II and Benedict XVI were orthodox and traditional, while Francis is a flaming liberal revolutionary. Whatever works! Facts be damned! Consistency: what’s that?

Hays cited a Catholic claiming that Protestants did not have a valid Eucharist, but that the Orthodox did, and asked, “Is that the position of post-Vatican II theology?” [p. 129] Yes it is. That’s why Protestants are not allowed to receive Holy Communion at a Catholic Mass, because they have a different view and don’t agree with the Catholic view.

By the way, why does the Eucharist require a Catholic priest to be valid, but baptism does not? What’s the principle? Or is the distinction ad hoc? [p. 129]

Because the priest represents Jesus at the Last Supper (in persona Christi / alter Christus), and then presides over transubstantiation and the eucharistic sacrifice, whereby the one redeeming, sacrifice on the cross is supernatural made present. Baptism, on the other hand, was done by people other than Jesus from the beginning (“Jesus himself did not baptize, but only his disciples”: Jn 4:2).

“Ecclesial deism”

[N]on-Catholics don’t believe God protects his denomination [Catholicism] from heresy or apostasy. [p. 131]

Non-Catholics don’t believe God protects any denomination or Christian communion from heresy or apostasy. This is a big problem, because the Bible teaches that the one true Church is indefectible.

We don’t believe Christ founded the Roman Catholic church in the first place. [p. 131]

What “church” did He found, then, since we know that He did so, by the words, “I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it” (Mt 16:18). All in one fell swoop, then, we know that there is such a thing as a “church” and it is Jesus’ own, and that it is indefectible. And we know that its first leader was Peter (the early part of the same verse).If the Catholic Church isn’t the one that Jesus is, which claimant is that? Hays could hardly deny that Jesus established a Church, when the text is so clear. The problem then becomes figuring out how the powers of death can’t touch the true Church, when Hays and Protestants deny that any Protestant denomination is infallible or indefectible (which is part and parcel of the definition of sola Scriptura). Quite the conundrum!

Protestants like me don’t believe that God withdrew his protection of his people from apostasy. To the contrary, God preserves the elect from apostasy. [p. 132]

That’s a meaningless abstract notion, since we don’t know for sure who the elect are, and those who think they are in the elect can’t agree on all doctrines anyway. So any sense of observable non-apostasy is nonsensical apart from a claimed denomination that “has it all right.” And that’s exactly what most Protestants will refuse to identify, because their own presuppositions disallow it.

***

Practical Matters: Perhaps some of my 4,300+ free online articles (the most comprehensive “one-stop” Catholic apologetics site) or fifty-one books have helped you (by God’s grace) to decide to become Catholic or to return to the Church, or better understand some doctrines and why we believe them.

Or you may believe my work is worthy to support for the purpose of apologetics and evangelism in general. If so, please seriously consider a much-needed financial contribution. I’m always in need of more funds: especially monthly support. “The laborer is worthy of his wages” (1 Tim 5:18, NKJV). 1 December 2021 was my 20th anniversary as a full-time Catholic apologist, and February 2022 marked the 25th anniversary of my blog.

PayPal donations are the easiest: just send to my email address: apologistdave@gmail.com. You’ll see the term “Catholic Used Book Service”, which is my old side-business. To learn about the different methods of contributing, including 100% tax deduction, etc., see my page: About Catholic Apologist Dave Armstrong / Donation InformationThanks a million from the bottom of my heart!

***

Photo credit: The Whore of Babylon (workshop of Lucas Cranach): colorized illustration from Martin Luther’s 1534 translation of the Bible [public domain / Wikimedia Commons]

***

Summary: The late Steve Hays was a Calvinist and anti-Catholic writer and apologist. This is one of my many critiques of Hays’ “Catholicism”: a 695-page self-published volume.

March 7, 2023

Previously, over 18 years ago, I dealt at length with Luther’s negative comments made about James: that it was a book not written by an apostle, that it supposedly contradicts the soteriology of St. Paul, that it was “an epistle of straw” and either not fit for the biblical canon, or if so, only in a secondary, lesser sense (it was, in fact, included in his German Bible, and not thrown out). I noted how the potshot about James being “an epistle of straw” was removed from his 1545 revision of his Preface to the New Testament. This can all be found in my article, “Luther’s Radical Views on the Biblical Canon” (9-25-04; do a word-search of “James”).

I have written several times about Luther’s soteriology being much more complex than a radical “faith alone” / antinomian outlook, which is unfortunately often falsely attributed to him, by misinformed Catholics and Protestants alike (following polemical stereotypes):

Martin Luther: Good Works Prove Authentic Faith [4-16-08]

Luther on Theosis & Sanctification [11-23-09]

Martin Luther: Faith Alone is Not Lawless Antinomianism [2-28-10]

Merit & Sanctification: Martin Luther’s Point of View [11-10-14]

Calvinist Origin of Luther’s (?) “Snow-Covered Dunghill”? [5-14-19]

Luther’s Translation of “Faith Alone” in Romans 3:28 (Also: Did “Early Erasmus” Agree with Luther?) [12-7-22]

On almost any major issue, it will be found that Luther’s views are either flat-out self-contradictory, or that his positions vacillated throughout his lifetime (in some cases back-and-forth more than once). His view of the book of James was no exception. Presently, I’d like to present some relatively positive statements from Martin Luther about the book of James. The main themes are that works cannot justify by themselves (a position Catholics fully agree with, contra Pelagianism), and that faith must be accompanied by works (we again agree), and that justification is always by faith alone (here we disagree and say that it is by faith, which always includes works as two sides of one coin; therefore works are part of justification as well as sanctification).

So he ultimately disagrees with us in his overall soteriology, and separates sanctification from justification, in a way that Scripture and Catholicism do not. But on the other hand, he is no antinomian: the position that works are more-or-less totally separate and distinct from faith, even in terms of a separated sanctification, and this has welcome affinities with Catholic soteriology. Luther’s words below will be in blue.

In a 1521 sermon Luther preached:

See, this is what James means when he says, [2:26] “Faith apart from works is dead.” For as the body without the soul is dead, so is faith without works. Not that faith is in man and does not work, which is impossible. For faith is a living, active thing. But in order that men may not deceive themselves and think they have faith when they have not, they are to examine their works, whether they also love their neighbors and do good to them. If they do this, it is a sign that they have the true faith. If they do not do this, they only have the sound of faith, and it is with them as the one who sees himself in the glass and when he leaves it and sees himself no more, but sees other things, forgets the face in the glass, as James says in his first chapter, verses 23-24.

This passage in James deceivers and blind masters have spun out so far, that they have demolished faith and established only works, as though righteousness and salvation did not rest on faith, but on our works. To this great darkness they afterwards added still more, and taught only good works which are no benefit to your neighbor, as fasting, repeating many prayers, observing festival days; not to eat meat, butter, eggs and milk; to build churches, cloisters, chapels, altars; to institute masses, vigils, hours; to wear gray, white and black clothes; to be spiritual; and innumerable things of the same kind, from which no man has any benefit or enjoyment; all which God condemns, and that justly. But St. James means that a Christian life is nothing but faith and love. Love is only being kind and useful to all men, to friends and enemies. And where faith is right, it also certainly loves, and does to another in love as Christ did to him in faith. Thus everyone should beware lest he has in his heart a dream and fancy instead of faith, and thus deceives himself. This he will not learn anywhere as well as in doing the works of love. As Christ also gives the same sign and says: “By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.” John 13, 35. Therefore St. James means to say: Beware, if your life is not in the service of others, and you live for yourself, and care nothing for your neighbor, then your faith is certainly nothing; for it does not do what Christ has done for him. Yea, he does not believe that Christ has done good to him, or he would not omit to do good to his neighbor. (The Complete Sermons of Martin Luther Vol. 3:1, Michigan: Baker Books, 2000, 71-72; my bolding and italics)

In another sermon (unknown date), he stated:

This is what St. James means when his says in his Epistle, 2:26: ‘”Faith without works is dead.” That is, as the works do not follow, it is a sure sign that there is no faith there; but only an empty thought and dream, which they falsely call faith. Now we understand the word of Christ: “Make to yourselves friends by means of the mammon of unrighteousness.” That is, prove your faith publically by your outward gifts, by which you win friends, that the poor may be witnesses of your public work, that your faith is genuine. For mere external giving in itself can never make friends, unless it proceed from faith, as Christ rejects the alms of the Pharisees in Matthew 6:2, that they thereby make no friends because their heart is false. Thus no heart can ever be right without faith, so that even nature forces the confession that no work makes one good, but that the heart must first be good and upright. (The Complete Sermons of Martin Luther Vol. 2:2, Michigan: Baker Books, 2000, 308; my bolding and italics)
And in 1524:
For this life is nothing more than a life of faith, of love, and of sanctified affliction. But these three will never be perfect in us while we live here on earth, and no one possesses them in perfection except Christ. He is the sun and is set for our example, which we must imitate. For this reason there will always be found among us some that are weak, others that are strong, and again some that are stronger; these are able to suffer less, those more; and so they must all continue in the imitation of Christ. For this life is a constant progress from faith to faith, from love to love, from patience to patience, and from affliction to affliction. It is not righteousness, but justification; not purity, but purification; we have not yet arrived at our destination, but we are all on the road, and some are farther advanced than others. (A Sermon on Confession and the Lord’s Supper; 1524; in Sermons of Martin Luther, The Church Postils; edited and partially translated by John Nicholas Lenker, 8 volumes. Volumes 1-5 were originally published in Minneapolis by Lutherans of All Lands, 1904-1906; Vol. 2)

In 1530, in reply to the question, “Why does James [2:26] say, ‘Faith apart from works is dead’?,” Luther wrote:

James is dealing with a moral point, not theological, just as he is almost entirely about morality. Morally speaking, it is true that faith without works is dead- that is, if faith does not do works or if outward works do not follow faith. In this way then, faith cannot exist apart from works; that is, it cannot fail to do works, else there is no faith alone.

We, however, are dealing with a theological point here since we are discussing justification before God. Here we assert that faith alone is counted as righteousness before God, apart from works and merits.” (Luther’s Works, Vol. 61 [published in 2021], 183-184; my bolding and italics)

And in his The Disputation Concerning Justification (1536), Luther responded to the proposition: “Faith without works justifies, Faith without works is dead [James 2:17, 26]. Therefore, dead faith justifies”:

The argument is sophistical and the refutation is resolved grammatically. In the major premise, ‘faith’ ought to be placed with the word ‘justifies’ and the portion of the sentence ‘without works justifies’ is placed in a predicate periphrase and must refer to the word ‘justifies,’ not to ‘faith.’ In the minor premise, ‘without works’ is truly in the subject periphrase and refers to faith. We say that justification is effective without works, not that faith is without works. For that faith which lacks fruit is not an efficacious but a feigned faith. ‘Without works’ is ambiguous, then. For that reason this argument settles nothing. It is one thing that faith justifies without works; it is another thing that faith exists without works. (Luther’s Works, Vol. 34, 175-176; my bolding and italics)

Luther even wrote in 1537, sounding very “Catholic” indeed:

Our justification is not yet finished. It is neither something which is actually completed nor is it essentially present. It is still under construction [to be completed in the resurrection]. (Disputation on the Works of the Law and of Grace, 1537; German: WA 39.1:252 / English: Luther’s Works, Vol. 71; cf. Paul Althaus, The Theology of Martin Luther, 245, footnote 96; my bolding and italics)

***

Practical Matters: Perhaps some of my 4,200+ free online articles (the most comprehensive “one-stop” Catholic apologetics site) or fifty-one books have helped you (by God’s grace) to decide to become Catholic or to return to the Church, or better understand some doctrines and why we believe them.

Or you may believe my work is worthy to support for the purpose of apologetics and evangelism in general. If so, please seriously consider a much-needed financial contribution. I’m always in need of more funds: especially monthly support. “The laborer is worthy of his wages” (1 Tim 5:18, NKJV). 1 December 2021 was my 20th anniversary as a full-time Catholic apologist, and February 2022 marked the 25th anniversary of my blog.

PayPal donations are the easiest: just send to my email address: apologistdave@gmail.com. You’ll see the term “Catholic Used Book Service”, which is my old side-business. To learn about the different methods of contributing, including 100% tax deduction, etc., see my page: About Catholic Apologist Dave Armstrong / Donation InformationThanks a million from the bottom of my heart!

***

Photo credit: Luther posting his 95 theses in 1517; 1872 painting by Ferdinand Pauwels (1830-1904) [public domain / Wikimedia Commons]

***

Summary: I analyze some lesser-known positive remarks from Martin Luther about James, with regard to faith & works. As usual, he is complex and self-contradictory.

December 7, 2022

Also: Did “Early Erasmus” Agree with Luther?

Luther researcher and anti-Catholic polemicist James Swan, who runs the Boors All blog, recently explored the famous controversy regarding Luther adding the word “alone” to “faith” in Romans 3:28: “Erasmus, Romans 3:28 and Faith Alone: ‘Vox sola, tot clamoribus lapidata hoc saeculo in Luthero, reverenter in Patribus auditur’ “ (11-29-22). He maintained that in his earlier writings Erasmus agreed with Luther about “faith alone” but in his later writings, he split from him in this respect.

Before I get into all that, let me note that I myself have dealt with Romans 3:28 and Luther’s “faith alone” in his German translation very little in my apologetics, even though I have written or edited two books about Martin Luther (one / two), and have huge web pages about Luther and Lutheranism. “Romans 3:28” never appears on my Luther web page or in my two books about him. I did mention it in passing in my 2004 book, The Catholic Verses: 95 Bible Passages That Confound Protestants:

Luther was equally strident when defending his addition of the word alone after faith in Romans 3:28:

Thus I will have it, thus I order it, my will is reason enough…. Luther will have it so, and . . . he is a Doctor above all Doctors in the whole of Popery (. . . Letter to Wenceslaus Link in 1530).

On the same page I described this as one of the “desperate measures and arguments” of Protestants following Luther’s lead. In a very early article of mine, dated 11 June 1991 (since greatly revised), I made a critical observation about Luther’s statement above:

Luther insists on his own (in effect) absolute infallibility. . . . One wonders whether Luther uttered these absurd sentiments with a smile on his face, or with tongue in cheek. In any event, such boastful, essentially silly and foolish rhetoric is not uncommon in Luther’s voluminous writings.

Note that I had serious doubts (back when I had only been recently convinced of Catholicism) whether Luther was even being totally serious. But this is very little emphasis (given my massive amount of writing about Luther and the Protestant Revolution) on an issue that is one of the most famous regarding Luther. In an article of mine, entitled “18 ‘Dumb Catholic Apologetics Arguments’ Analyzed” (5-14-09), I agreed with Catholic writer Ben Douglass’s cited opinion about this argument:

16. Avoid making hay about Martin Luther adding the word “alone” to Romans 3:28. While the word is indeed absent from the Greek text, Luther was not the first to regard it as a justifiable gloss. That it is not in fact justifiable makes Luther’s addition an exegetical error, but this is not the same thing as a blatant perversion.

I’ve never put much stock in this argument, and agree that it doesn’t accomplish much in Protestant-Catholic discussion.

Conclusion for #16: complete agreement. [bolding in original]

This article, accordingly, represents my first in-depth treatment of this issue, after 32 years of writing Catholic apologetics (over 4,000 articles on my blog, and 51 books). The letter of Luther in question was to Wenceslaus Link, dated 8 September 1530. It was published as An Open Letter on Translating. Here is a very extensive excerpt, which makes for fascinating reading (agree or  disagree):

[Y]ou ask why in translating the words of Paul in the 3rd chapter of the Epistle to the Romans, Arbitramur hominem iustificari ex fide absque operibus, I rendered them, “We hold that a man is justified without the works of the law, by faith alone,” and you also tell me that the papists are causing a great fuss because Paul’s text does not contain the word sola (alone), and that my addition to the words of God is not to be tolerated. . . . you can give the papists this answer from me, if you like.

First of all if I, Dr. Luther, had expected that all the papists together were capable of translating even one chapter of Scripture correctly and well into German, I would have gathered up enough humility to ask for their aid and assistance in translating the New Testament into German. However, because I knew (and still see with my own eyes) that not one of them knows how to translate or speak German, I spared them and myself the trouble. It is evident, however, that they are learning to speak and write German from my German translation, and so they are stealing my language from me, a language they had little knowledge of before this. Yet they do not thank me for this, but instead they use it against me. However, I readily grant them this, for it tickles me to know that I have taught my ungrateful pupils, even my enemies, how to speak. . . .

If I have made some mistakes in it (although I am not aware of any, and would most certainly be unwilling to deliberately mistranslate a single letter) I will not allow the papists to be my judges. For their ears are still too long and their hee-haws too weak for them to criticize my translating. I know quite well how much skill, hard work, sense and brains are needed for a good translation. They know it even less than the miller’s donkey, for they have never tried it. . . .

I would like to see a papist come forward and translate even one epistle of St. Paul’s or one of the prophets without making use of Luther’s German or translation. Then we might see a fine, beautiful and noteworthy translation into German. . . .

If your papist wishes to make a great fuss about the word sola (alone), say this to him: “Dr. Martin Luther will have it so, and he says that a papist and a donkey are the same thing.” Sic volo, sic iubeo, sit pro ratione voluntas. [1] For we are not going to be students and disciples of the papists. Rather, we will become their teachers and judges. For once, we also are going to be proud and brag, with these blockheads; and just as Paul brags against his mad raving saints, I will brag against these donkeys of mine! Are they doctors? So am I. Are they scholars? So am I. Are they preachers? So am I. Are they theologians? So am I. Are they debaters? So am I. Are they philosophers? So am I. Are they logicians? So am I. Do they lecture? So do I. Do they write books? So do I.

I will go even further with my boasting: I can expound the psalms and the prophets, and they cannot. I can translate, and they cannot. I can read the Holy Scriptures, and they cannot. I can pray, they cannot. Coming down to their level, I can use their rhetoric and philosophy better than all of them put together. . . .

Let this be the answer to your first question. Please do not give these donkeys any other answer to their useless braying about that word sola than simply this: “Luther will have it so, and he says that he is a doctor above all the doctors of the pope.” Let it rest there. I will from now on hold them in contempt, and have already held them in contempt, as long as they are the kind of people (or rather donkeys) that they are. And there are brazen idiots among them who have never even learned their own art of sophistry, like Dr. Schmidt and Dr. Snot-Nose, [2] and such like them, who set themselves against me in this matter, which not only transcends sophistry, but as Paul writes, all the wisdom and understanding in the world as well. Truly a donkey does not have to sing much, because he is already known by his ears. . . .

I know very well that in Romans 3 the word solum is not in the Greek or Latin text — the papists did not have to teach me that. It is fact that the letters s-o-l-a are not there. And these blockheads stare at them like cows at a new gate, while at the same time they do not recognize that it conveys the sense of the text — if the translation is to be clear and vigorous [klar und gewaltiglich], it belongs there. I wanted to speak German, not Latin or Greek, since it was German I had set about to speak in the translation. But it is the nature of our language that in speaking about two things, one which is affirmed, the other denied, we use the word allein [only] along with the word nicht [not] or kein [no]. For example, we say “the farmer brings allein grain and kein money”; or “No, I really have nicht money, but allein grain”; I have allein eaten and nicht yet drunk”; “Did you write it allein and nicht read it over?” There are countless cases like this in daily usage.

In all these phrases, this is a German usage, even though it is not the Latin or Greek usage. It is the nature of the German language to add allein in order that nicht or kein may be clearer and more complete. To be sure, I can also say, “The farmer brings grain and kein money,” but the words “kein money” do not sound as full and clear as if I were to say, “the farmer brings allein grain and kein money.” Here the word allein helps the word kein so much that it becomes a completely clear German expression. We do not have to ask the literal Latin how we are to speak German, as these donkeys do. Rather we must ask the mother in the home, the children on the street, the common man in the marketplace. We must be guided by their language, by the way they speak, and do our translating accordingly. Then they will understand it and recognize that we are speaking German to them. . . .

Why should I even bother to talk about translating so much? If I were I to explain all the reasons and considerations behind my words, I would need an entire year. I have learned by experience what an art and what a task translating is, so I will not tolerate some papal donkey or mule acting as my judge or critic. They have not tried it. If anyone does not like my translations, he can ignore it; and may the devil repay him for it if he dislikes or criticizes my translations without my knowledge or permission. If it needs to be criticized, I will do it myself. If I do not do it, then let them leave my translations in peace. Each of them can do a translation for himself that suits him — what do I care? . . .

I care nothing about the papal donkeys, as they are not good enough to acknowledge my work and, if they were to bless me, it would break my heart. Their insults are my highest praise and honor. I shall still be a doctor, even a distinguished one. I am certain that they shall never take that away from me until the Last Day.

Footnotes

[1] “I will it, I command it, my will is reason enough.” A quotation from Juvenal’s sixth satire, which Luther often used to characterize the arbitrary power of the pope.

[2] With these abusive terms Luther refers to two prominent Catholic enemies. By “Smith” he means Johann Faber of Leutkirch (whose father was a blacksmith) and by “Snot-Nose” (Rotzlöffel) he means Johann Cochlaeus (“löffel” is the German equivalent of the Latin cochlear).

Swan wrote in his article:

Ironically, it was a Roman Catholic scholar that best defended Luther on this: Joseph A. Fitzmyer pointed out a number of people previous to Luther also saw the thrust of “alone” in Romans 3:28.

We need not — are under no “Catholic necessity” to — deny this. The live question of translation is whether it should be added.  Secondly, if Erasmus’ views are brought into the discussion, it might be interesting to see if he included himself in his famous Textus Receptus Greek edition of the New Testament (or, Novum Instrumentum omne) in 1516. Wikipedia states about it:

The Textus Receptus constituted the translation-base for the original German Luther Bible, the translation of the New Testament into English by William Tyndale, the King James Version, the Spanish Reina-Valera translation, the Czech Bible of Kralice, and most Reformation-era New Testament translations throughout Western and Central Europe. The text originated with the first printed Greek New Testament, published in 1516, a work undertaken in Basel by the Dutch Catholic scholar, priest and monk Desiderius Erasmus.

It turns out that “alone” is not found in Erasmus’ Greek New Testament at Romans 3:28. One web page about this topic posted the Greek from that work:

λογιζομεθα ουν πιστει δικαιουσθαι ανθρωπον χωρις εργων νομου

— The Textus Receptus; base text is Stephens 1550, with variants of Scrivener 1894.

See also an interlinear version with the Greek of Textus Receptus, and English. One might also sensibly ask: “how have translations rendered Romans 3:28 over the past 500 years?” Do they exhibit  Luther’s vehement insistence (apart from the specifically German aspects of the question)? The Bible Gateway site, that has about 30 English translations (specifically for for Romans 3:28), informs us that none of them have “alone” in Romans 3:28. One translation has “only” and that is the Good News Translation (GNT), a well-known very free paraphrase. It reads: “For we conclude that a person is put right with God only through faith, and not by doing what the Law commands.” Likewise, Bible Hub’s parallel Bibles page shows exactly the same thing: none with “alone” and only GNT with “only.”

These include, most interestingly, even Bibles from the 1500s:

Tyndale Bible (1526) For we suppose that a man is iustified by fayth without the dedes of ye lawe.

Coverdale Bible (1535) We holde therfore that a man is iustified by faith, without the workes of the lawe.

Bishops’ Bible (1568) Therfore, we holde that a man is iustified by fayth, without the deedes of the lawe.

Geneva Bible (1587) Therefore we conclude, that a man is iustified by faith, without the workes of the Lawe.

William Tyndale was a Protestant. Myles Coverdale was an Anglican. His Bible was a combination of Tyndale’s, plus his translations of books not included in Tyndale’s collection. The Bishops’ Bible was produced by the Church of England. The Geneva Bible was also basically a revision of and addendum to Tyndale’s Bible, produced by Protestants. Thus, none of these versions can be accused of Catholic bias in translation. The absence of “alone” in the passage is virtually universal. Hence, the most historically influential Bible in English, the King James Version, reads, “Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.” The Catholic English Bible from roughly the same period: the Douay-Rheims, reads, “For we account a man to be justified by faith, without the works of the law.”

One must take a step back from this passage and learn about the issues at stake in the first place. Catholics fully agree that we are “justified by faith apart from works of law” (RSV) because of what we understand by the particular Pauline phrase, “works of law.” I cited my friend Al Kresta in my first book, A Biblical Defense of Catholicism (2003), explaining this:

Unlike the modern evangelical Protestant revivalistic preaching tradition, the Apostle Paul was not preoccupied with his acceptance as a sinner before a holy and righteous God. That was Luther’s crisis. Protestants have tended to read Paul through the lens of Luther’s experience.

  1. . . . Luther said he feared God but clung to the Apostle Paul. All the constitutive elements of the classic Luther-type experience, however, are missing in both the experience and the thought of the Apostle.

Unlike Luther, Paul was not preoccupied with his guilt, seeking reassurance of a gracious God. He was rather robust of conscience, even given to boasting, untroubled about whether God was gracious or not (Philippians 3:4 ff.; 2 Corinthians 10, 11). He knew God was gracious. He never pleads either with Jews or Gentiles to feel an anguished conscience and then receive release from that anguish in a message of forgiveness . . . Paul’s burden is not to “bring people under conviction of sin” as in revival services. Forgiveness is simply a matter of fact.

When Paul speaks of himself as a serious sinner, it is . . . very specifically because . . . he had persecuted the church and missed God’s new move — opening the covenant community to the Gentiles (1 Corinthians 15:9-10; Ephesians 3:8; Galatians 1:13-16; 1 Timothy 1:13-15).

What is now set right in his life is not that he is no longer trying to work his way to heaven, abandons self-exertion and now trusts Christ; it is rather that he now sees that God has inexplicably chosen him to reveal this new and more inclusive covenant community made up of Jew and Gentile . . . (Ephesians 2:11-3:6).

2. Paul’s arguments against works of the law are not fundamentally arguments against human participation in or human cooperation with the saving purposes of God but arguments against Judaistic pride that sought to define membership in the covenant community by reference to Jewish marks of identity, such as circumcision, Sabbath-keeping, etc. and not fundamentally faith in Jesus as Messiah . . .

Contrary to the pronouncements of popular preachers, first century Judaism did not believe in salvation by works. They believed that they were God’s elect people by grace; lawkeeping was their response to God’s grace. Salvation was understood to be granted by God’s electing grace, not according to a righteousness based on merit-earning works. But most Protestant scholars since Luther have read Paul as saying that Judaism misunderstood the gracious nature of God’s covenant with Moses and perverted it into a system of attaining righteousness by works.

Wrong! Luther’s experience was not Paul’s. New Testament scholars, for the most part, now understand ‘works of law’ not as synonymous with human effort but as the activities by which the Jews maintained their distinct status from the Gentiles . . . (pp. 141-142; from unpublished lecture notes entitled Some Further Thoughts on Justification by Faith Through Grace [1993] )

With this understanding, Catholics can and do freely accept the proposition, “justified by faith apart from works of law” because it doesn’t exclude grace-produced, grace-enabled works that accompany genuine faith, according to what is taught in James:

James 2:14, 17-18, 20-22, 24-26 What does it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith but has not works? Can his faith save him?…[17] So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead. [18] But some one will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I by my works will show you my faith. . . . [20] Do you want to be shown, you shallow man, that faith apart from works is barren? [21] Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? [22] You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works, . . . [24] You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. [25] And in the same way was not also Rahab the harlot justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way? [26] For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead.

We have no problem with “justification by faith” nor with justification by grace alone. The Catholic Church fully accepts both. Our problem is with an altogether different proposition: “justification by faith alone.” I’ve written many times along these lines:

Trent Doesn’t Utterly Exclude Imputation (Kenneth Howell) [July 1996]

Council of Trent: Canons on Justification (with a handy summary of Tridentine soteriology) [12-29-03]

Initial Justification & “Faith Alone”: Harmonious? [5-3-04]

Catholic-Protestant Common Ground (Esp. Re Good Works) [4-8-08]

Comparative Soteriology (Salvation): A Handy Chart [7-19-08]

Monergism in Initial Justification is Catholic Doctrine [1-7-10]

Salvation: By Grace Alone, Not Faith Alone or Works [2013]

Scripture on Being Co-Workers with God for Salvation [2013]

Also, Luther’s view on justification, fully understood, is much more complex than a supposed stark dichotomy between faith and works:

Martin Luther: Good Works Prove Authentic Faith [4-16-08]

Luther on Theosis & Sanctification [11-23-09]

Martin Luther: Faith Alone is Not Lawless Antinomianism [2-28-10]

Merit & Sanctification: Martin Luther’s Point of View [11-10-14]

Lastly, Erasmus’ remarks must be understood in light of all of this backdrop, too. Swan cites Protestant exegete D. A. Carson, who claimed that Erasmus accepted some variation of “faith alone” till “1532, when he . . . began advocating for the need of human works in justification.” I don’t have time for an exhaustive review of Erasmus’ soteriology, but I do know that he made the following (perfectly orthodox and Catholic; consistent with Trent) statements in 1526, in his Hyperaspistes, which was a reply to Luther. I have in my own library a copy of Collected Works of Erasmus, Vol. 76: Controversies: De Libero Arbitrio / Hyperaspistes I, (Univ. of Toronto Press, 1999), by Peter Macardle and Clarence H. Miller, translators, and Charles Trinkhaus, editor.  Here are some relevant excerpts:

[I]n my Discussion I so distinctly and so clearly explain that there is no contradiction in saying that the sum and substance of a good deed should be attributed to God and asserting also that the human will does something, however tiny its share may be. (p. 154)

For why should anyone have faith in himself if he knows that he can neither begin nor complete anything without the help of God’s grace, to whom I profess that the sum and substance of all things rightly done ought to be attributed? Nor is there any difference between you and me except that I make our will cooperate with the grace of God and you make it completely passive. (p. 185)

How will a person rise up against God if he knows that he has in himself no hope of salvation without the singular grace of God, if he is persuaded that all human powers are of no avail for salvation without the aid of grace, especially since he is not unaware that everything he can do by his natural powers is the free gift of God? If a person wishes to cross the ocean, is he confident that he can achieve this without a ship and wind? And yet he is not idle while he is sailing. For professing free will does not tend to make a person attribute less to the mercy of God but rather keeps him from not responding to operating grace and gives him reason to blame himself if he perishes. I exalt God’s mercy so much, I diminish human power so much, that in the matter of salvation no one can claim anything for himself, since the very fact of his existence and whatever he can do by his natural endowments is the gift of God. You exalt grace and demean mankind so much that you open another pit which we had closed over by attributing just a little bit to free will, namely that it accommodates itself to grace or turns away from grace. (p. 186)

When you say that a person taken captive by sin cannot by his own power turn his will to good unless he is blown upon by the breath of grace, we also profess this, especially if you mean turning effectively. (p. 188)

. . . you remove grace from free will, but when I say free will does something good, I join it with grace, and while it obeys grace it is acted upon and it acts felicitously. (p. 190)

Now see how you bear down upon me: it effects nothing without grace; therefore it does nothing at all with grace. Is this the trap you have set to catch me? (p. 190)

***

Practical Matters: Perhaps some of my 4,000+ free online articles (the most comprehensive “one-stop” Catholic apologetics site) or fifty books have helped you (by God’s grace) to decide to become Catholic or to return to the Church, or better understand some doctrines and why we believe them.

Or you may believe my work is worthy to support for the purpose of apologetics and evangelism in general. If so, please seriously consider a much-needed financial contribution. I’m always in need of more funds: especially monthly support. “The laborer is worthy of his wages” (1 Tim 5:18, NKJV). 1 December 2021 was my 20th anniversary as a full-time Catholic apologist, and February 2022 marked the 25th anniversary of my blog.

PayPal donations are the easiest: just send to my email address: apologistdave@gmail.com. You’ll see the term “Catholic Used Book Service”, which is my old side-business. To learn about the different methods of contributing, including 100% tax deduction, etc., see my page: About Catholic Apologist Dave Armstrong / Donation InformationThanks a million from the bottom of my heart!

***

Photo credit: Desiderius Erasmus (1466/1469-1536); portrait (1523) by Hans Holbein the Younger (1497/1498-1543) [public domain / Wikimedia Commons]

***

Summary: The controversy over Romans 3:28 and Martin Luther adding “alone” to “faith” in his German Bible is explored from many angles, including the views of Erasmus.

September 20, 2022

[see book and purchase information]

Lucas Banzoli is a very active Brazilian anti-Catholic polemicist, who holds to basically a Seventh-Day Adventist theology, whereby there is no such thing as a soul that consciously exists outside of a body, and no hell (soul sleep and annihilationism). This leads him to a Christology which is deficient and heterodox in terms of Christ’s human nature after His death. He has a Master’s degree in theology, a degree and postgraduate work in history, a license in letters, and is a history teacher, author of 25 books, as well as blogmaster (but now inactive) for six blogs. He’s active on YouTube.

This is my 27th refutation of articles written by Lucas Banzoli. As of yet, I haven’t received a single word in reply to any of them (or if Banzoli has replied to anything, anywhere, he certainly hasn’t informed me of it). Readers may decide for themselves why that is the case. I use RSV for the Bible passages unless otherwise indicated. Google Translate is utilized to render Lucas’ Portugese into English. His words will be in blue.

*****

I’m replying to Lucas’ article, “Breve refutação a dez calúnias católicas sobre a Reforma” [Brief refutation of ten Catholic slanders about the Reformation] (8-19-17).

I am writing a book on the Protestant Reformation, which I intend to have ready by the 500th anniversary of the Reformation on October 31st.

Yes; I like anniversaries, too. I prepared 55 refutations of John Calvin on the occasion of the 500th anniversary of his birth (2009), including a complete reply to Book IV of his Institutes of the Christian Religion. I have more such material in my books, Biblical Catholic Answers for John Calvin (March 2010, 388 pages), and A Biblical Critique of Calvinism (Oct. 2012, 178 pages). I’m sure he was smiling from purgatory when he found out about those “birthday gifts.” If he made it to heaven, we’ll play a few chess games and I’ll assure him it was nothing personal: simply a old-fashioned, “quaint” concern about truth and accuracy.

I was busy on the 500th anniversary of the Protestant Revolution, too, and put out two appropriate new articles and a revision:

Critique of Ten Exaggerated Claims of the “Reformation” [10-31-17]

Catholic Church vs. the Bible? Exchange w Protestant [10-31-17]

Luther on the Deaths of Zwingli, St. Thomas More, & St. John Fisher [11-30-07; expanded on 10-31-17]

I also had some fun on the next day:

*
*
*

To that end, I have been reading as many books as possible on the subject for months, as I intend it to have at least one hundred bibliographic references, which is the minimum required in any serious academic work in history (this is the main reason why I have updated the blog so little lately).

I would have never suspected that, given the uniformly low quality of this article. I can see it if he was simply reading ultra-biased, bigoted anti-Catholic tripe of little scholarly value.

Here I will not argue extensively upon every point that uneducated Papists blatantly distort and lie about: which I will leave to do in depth in the book, with specific chapters referring to each issue below and many others.

Lucky for him, because I would have systematically dismantled it, just as I am going to do with his pathetic existing material now.

In this article I will only give a summary of the rebuttals to each Romanist slander or slander on the history of the Reformation, as many people have asked me to write a brief and to the point explanation of these matters. This article will be the answer to those questions.

I understand the inherent limitations of brief treatments; nevertheless, they ought not contain blatant falsehoods: a thing this article is chock-full of.

Enjoy reading, as this will probably be the only text written by someone who has actually read and studied these topics in depth, instead of just copying and pasting from other sites, as they only know how to do.

Most of my replies, as the reader will soon find out, come from exhaustive existing research of my own. If Lucas thinks my research is shoddy, too, then let him refute it. Unfortunately, he chose not to make any reply whatsoever to my previous 26 installments. I’ll be careful not to hold my breath waiting for him answer to this, because I like being alive.

Slander 1: There was a “Protestant Inquisition”, which killed more than the Catholic Inquisition.

Answer: “Protestant Inquisition” is a term that is completely absent in history books written by reputable historians or in serious academic publications.

This is untrue (on all four counts), and it took me about three minutes to discover that in a search. It turned up in a 362-page scholarly book that I have in my own library: Inquisition, by Edward Peters (University of California PressApr 14, 1989). It contains this excerpt:

The execution of Michael Servetus became the symbol of the dangers of a “Protestant Inquisition” and was used by many supporters of religious toleration as a counterpoint to the Spanish Inquisition. (text for Plate 14 [painting of Servetus]: between pages 218 and 219)

Dr. Peters was a professor of medieval history at the University of Pennsylvania and author of seven more related books about the Middle Ages and religious toleration (or lack thereof).

A bit of friendly advice to Lucas, so he won’t further embarrass himself: try not to ever make “universal negative” statements. They will come back to “bite” and haunt you every time. At least qualify it if you insist on making a sweeping claim.

Another irony is that it is fairly well-known to students of Calvin’s history (I’ve known it for over thirty years), that he was willing at one point to deliver Servetus up to the Catholic inquisition. How ironic, huh? Here is a reference to that in a Protestant source:

Calvin and Servetus corresponded for a time before the former gave up in frustration. He warned that if Servetus came to visit him in Geneva, ‘I would not let him leave alive’.

He wasn’t exaggerating. Calvin informed the Catholic Inquisition of Servetus location – they decreed that he be burned, though the lucky heretic escaped his capture. He was caught out when he came to Geneva however, where he was spotted and the local council had him arrested and sentenced to death. To give some credit to Calvin, he encouraged Servetus to repent, with no success. He also unsuccessfully lobbied for some (relative) leniency for the prisoner, suggesting beheading instead of being burned alive.

But various correspondence shows that even though Calvin didn’t sentence Servetus, he still believed it was right for him to die for his heresy. As for those who criticised his enthusiasm for Servetus’ death, Calvin revelled in their opposition – and said they were just as guilty as the heretics.

One contemporary of Calvin’s, Sebastian Castellio, said that his hands were ‘dripping with the blood of Servetus’. Even though Servetus would have probably faced death without Calvin’s help, it’s not an unfair assessment. (“The dark side of the Reformation: John Calvin and the burning of heretics”, Joseph Hartropp, Christian Today, two typos corrected)

Lucas later admits in this article:

We are not justifying the execution of Servetus, which was arguably a black and extremely regrettable stain on the history of the Reformation.

This myth was recently invented by American Catholic apologetics blogs in an attempt to assuage the Catholic Inquisition (ie, the one that existed), and “imported” by Brazilian Catholic apologetics.

Actually, I myself probably came up with the term that has circulated online, in the first draft of my book, A Biblical Defense of Catholicism: this portion completed on 3 June 1991 (portions of which would turn up online after 1996). One of my original book chapters (later discarded for a shorter book and only used online) was called “The Protestant Inquisition (‘Reformation’ Intolerance and Persecution).” Follow the link to see an archived version of the chapter, dated 17 August 2000. And of course it includes a ton of information precisely about what the title alludes to. As to the supposed “myth” of Protestant persecution, I cited well-known secularist historian Will Durant, who stated:

The principle which the Reformation had upheld in the youth of its rebellion — the right of private judgment — was as completely rejected by the Protestant leaders as by the Catholics . . . Toleration was now definitely less after the Reformation than before it. (The Reformation, [vol. 6 of 10-volume The Story of Civilization, 1967], New York: Simon & Schuster, 1957, p. 456. He was referring to the year 1555, the time of the Diet of Augsburg)

Why did I use this term? It was “turning the tables” on Protestant anti-Catholic polemicists who pretended that Protestant persecution either didn’t exist, or was far less than Catholic persecution. That is the myth here. All religious groups persecuted, as soon as they had the power to do so. And they did because it was believed that heresy was more harmful to a soul than even murder was to a body. And it had some rationale: particularly in the Old Testament, where capital punishment was used for many crimes and violations of the Mosaic Law.

I used the term in order to be provocative and to “tweak” the Protestant into understanding that there are two sides to every story, and that Protestants don’t come out totally clean on this score, either. I would prefer to let the past alone about all this, but because Protestants insist on either willful ignorance or a blatant double standard (i.e., only talking about Catholic persecution and intolerance), I document their own sordid past in this respect, too. Lucas seems intent on playing the same self-deluded game. Readers of his will be thoroughly disabused of it if they read this reply.

Lucas stated later in this article:

While hundreds of thousands of people were murdered in a variety of ways in Catholic countries purely for religious reasons, only one was in a Protestant country – and one that wasn’t even Catholic.

This is sheer nonsense: that only Servetus was a victim of Protestant intolerance. There were tens of thousands, as I substantiate immediately below:

Type “Protestant Inquisition” into any search engine and you will only find Catholic blogs . . . 

That’s not what I found. I found the above reference. I have had to spend time refuting ultra-ridiculous claims, such as in this article of mine: Catholic Inquisition Murdered “50-68 Million”? [5-23-17]: that lame-brained anti-Catholic Protestant ignoramuses crank out. On page 87 of his book, Peters states:

The best estimate is that around 3000 death sentences were carried out in Spain by Inquisitorial verdict between 1550 and 1800, a far smaller number than that in comparable secular courts.

Henry Kamen, a Fellow of the Royal Historical Society and professor of history at various universities, including the University of Wisconsin – Madison; author of The Spanish Inquisition: A Historical Revision (London and New Haven: Yale University Press, 1998; fourth revised edition, 2014), gave his professional opinion as to these estimated numbers:

Taking into account all the tribunals of Spain up to about 1530, it is unlikely that more than two thousand people were executed for heresy by the Inquisition. (p. 60)

[I]t is clear that for most of its existence that Inquisition was far from being a juggernaut of death either in intention or in capability. . . . it would seem that during the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries fewer than three people a year were executed in the whole of the Spanish monarchy from Sicily to Peru, certainly a lower rate than in any provincial court of justice in Spain or anywhere else in Europe. (p. 203)

For copiously documented facts and figures, see:  “Beyond the Myth of The Inquisition: Ours Is ‘The Golden Age’”, by Fr. Brian Van Hove, S. J., Faith and Reason (Winter, 1992).

But Lucas made the following absurd statement in another paper of his: “Catholic apologists, . . . when they speak of the Inquisition, usually only mention the death toll taken out of their heads” (Brief rebuttal to five tactics of Catholic revisionists on the Inquisition, 8-30-17).

They are not able to cite a single book other than Catholic proselytizing that defends this concept. Speak of “Protestant Inquisition” in an academic setting and you will be completely laughed at. In short, the infamous “Protestant Inquisition” is completely unknown to historians, although ubiquitous on Catholic blogs.

See Inquisition by a medieval scholar above. The “last laugh” is on Lucas. But even if I couldn’t have found the term, I certainly have found the tactics and the intolerance that the term represents. And that’s the whole point. I have massively documented Protestant intolerance (with an entire web page devoted to it).

As if the creation of the myth of the “Protestant Inquisition” were not enough, they still invented another one: that this Inquisition “killed more than the Catholic”!

That may have been the case, seeing that England was the most powerful Protestant country, and (14 years ago) I documented at least 1375 Catholic martyrs by name:

444 Irish Catholic Martyrs and Heroic Confessors: 1565-1713 [2-27-08]

Secondly, it’s rather well-known by historians also that the persecutions of witches was mostly a Protestant phenomenon. Law professor Douglas O. Linder wrote about this in 2005:

St. Augustine argues witchcraft is an impossibility . . . The late medieval Church accepted St. Augustine’s view, and hence felt little need to bother itself with tracking down witches or investigating allegations of witchcraft. . . .

The Reformation sends kill rates up . . . Over the 160 years from 1500 to 1660, Europe saw between 50,000 and 80,000 suspected witches executed.  About 80% of those killed were women.  Execution rates varied greatly by country, from a high of about 26,000 in Germany to about 10,000 in France, 1,000 in England, and only four in Ireland. (“A Brief  History of Witchcraft Persecutions before Salem”)

Jamie Doward, in an article in The Guardian, in which he cites the research of two economists, Peter Leeson and Jacob Russ of George Mason University in Virginia, observed:

The great age of witch trials, which ran between 1550 and 1700, fascinates and repels in equal measure. Over the course of a century and a half, 80,000 people were tried for witchcraft and half of them were executed, often burned alive.

And then trials disappeared almost completely.

Their appearance was all the more strange because between 900 and 1400 the Christian authorities [Catholics!] had refused to acknowledge that witches existed, let alone try someone for the crime of being one. . . .

They reach their conclusion after drawing on analyses of new data covering more than 43,000 people tried for witchcraft in 21 European countries.

The data shows that witch-hunts took off only after the Reformation in 1517, following the rapid spread of Protestantism. . . .

Germany, ground zero for the Reformation, laid claim to nearly 40% of all witchcraft prosecutions in Europe. Scotland, where different strains of Protestantism were in competition, saw the second highest level of witch-hunts, with a total of 3,563 people tried.

“In contrast, Spain, Italy, Portugal and Ireland – each of which remained a Catholic stronghold after the Reformation and never saw serious competition from Protestantism – collectively accounted for just 6% of Europeans tried for witchcraft,” Russ observes. (“Why Europe’s wars of religion put 40,000 ‘witches’ to a terrible death”, 1-6-18)

Looks like the Protestants easily beat Catholics for the most persecution deaths, since they accounted for the great majority of so-called “witch” executions, in the numbers described above, whereas Catholic Inquisition deaths were only a few thousand. No contest . . . Thus, the documented facts are the exact opposite of what Lucas pretended them to be.

In other words: Protestants created an Inquisition more deadly than the Catholic one, but since all the historians on the planet are very bad and are all in a worldwide anti-Catholic conspiracy, they only talk about the Catholic Inquisition, and it took amateur Catholic bloggers of the 21st century who have never opened a book in their lives to show the whole “truth” to the world! Yes, and Santa Claus exists.

The above information puts the lie to this slop. Protestants did precisely that. It was called “witch-hunts.”

In fact, for a Protestant Inquisition to exist, there would have to be a Protestant ecclesiastical court of that name, which would try people for the “crime” of heresy and condemn them as “heretics”. That, of course, never existed.

Who needs courts, if you whip the public up into a paranoid frenzy and have ridiculous trial rules and tactics, designed to always end up in yet another burning of some poor terrified woman.

Slander 2: Luther is to blame for the death of peasants in the “Peasants’ War”.

Slander 3: The peasants were Protestants, who only revolted because of Luther.
*

I already dealt with this complex topic in an earlier reply to Lucas: “Did Luther Cause the 1525 Peasants’ Revolt? (vs. Banzoli)” [6-20-22].

Slander 4: Protestants persecuted Anabaptists.

I disposed of the lie that this didn’t happen already, too, in reply to Lucas: Protestants Executed Peaceful Anabaptists (vs. L. Banzoli) [6-20-22].

Slander 5: Evil Protestants made the “Sack of Rome” in 1527.

I totally agree that other Catholics did this, so we have no disagreement here. I’ve never seen anyone argue that it was Protestants.

Slander 6: Henry VIII was a Protestant who persecuted Catholics in England.

Answer: Nothing more false. Henry VIII was a Catholic who received the title of “Defender of the Faith” by the pope before the Schism, and who even after the Schism continued to “defend the faith” Catholic, with the same rigor as before. Both his “Ten Articles” and his “Six Articles” were entirely Catholic in essence, and provided, in addition to all the traditional Catholic doctrines of the time, the death penalty for those who rejected these doctrines, such as transubstantiation.

Sure, he was a Catholic (so were Luther and Calvin). But he certainly wasn’t anymore, however, when he divorced his wife (what St. Thomas More became a martyr for) and was willing to take an entire country with him, while he satisfied his sexual lusts and made himself head of the supposed “Anglican” church and rejected the universal headship of the pope.

That’s no kind of traditional “Catholic” (as the term had been known prior to Butcher Henry) that I am aware of. Nor was he any kind of Catholic (or moral person whatever, when he started murdering nuns and priests in the many hundreds for simply desiring to retain the same religion that was the norm in England for the previous 1000 years (often tearing their hearts out, pulling out their intestines, cutting of their limbs, etc.).

I already documented by name many of the Catholics that he murdered, above.

That is why Protestants were severely persecuted by this king and burned as heretics in heaps. Catholics were also punished, but not for heresy, but for “high treason,” that is, for denying the supremacy of the English king over the pope.

And Lucas thinks this is “Catholicism”: where a king is over a pope? It may be like Orthodoxy (which had been sullied over and over by Caesaropapism), but it was not Catholicism. Lutherans and Calvinists also went for the State-Church. But this was not the Catholic view.

Henry VIII was fully willing to murder anyone who opposed him for any reason, so I’m quite sure some Protestants were included in that sad group; but relatively few.

What Henry VIII did was not to introduce Protestantism in England, but only to detach the Catholic Church from the power of the Roman Pope, that is, to create a “national Catholicism”, where the king took the place of the Pope, but preserving the same Catholic doctrines. as before and with the same rigor.

He didn’t. Divorce was never a Catholic teaching. Soon, Anglicanism settled into the chaotic, relativistic mess that it has been ever since.

Protestantism only took place in England in the brief reign of Edward VI, then went through a setback in the following reign of “Bloody Mary”  (who restored Catholicism in communion with the Pope), and was consolidated only in the following reign, of Elizabeth I.

It’s simply a more extreme Protestantism under Elizabeth. It doesn’t follow that Henry’s new religion that he pulled out of a hat (or something else) was not Protestantism at all. I’m saying that if it clearly wasn’t Catholicism as previously defined, and not Orthodoxy, then there is only one other choice: some form of Protestantism. Oxford historian Susan Doran noted that Henry VIII accepted sola Scriptura: the Protestant “rule of faith”: and one of the two “pillars” of the so-called “Reformation”:

Although Henry rejected Martin Luther’s theology of justification by faith alone, he did accept the German reformer’s insistence upon the supremacy of Scripture. After all, the ‘Word of God’ (Leviticus 20.21) had justified the annulment of his first marriage. (“Henry VIII and the Reformation”, Discovering Sacred Texts / British Library, 9-23-19)

Attacking and then plundering and stealing hundreds of monasteries ain’t a very Catholic thing to do, either, is it? The same author noted:

Henry and his newly-appointed ‘Vice Gerent in Spiritual Affairs’, Thomas Cromwell, immediately embarked upon a programme of reform. Cromwell’s Injunctions of 1536, and 1538 attacked idolatry, pilgrimages and other ‘superstitions’. The lesser monasteries were closed in 1536 and the remaining monasteries were dissolved over the next few years. Those men and women who resisted the closures were imprisoned or hanged.

Slander 7: Catholics suffered “terrible persecution” at the hands of Elizabeth I.

Answer: This is probably the greatest of all slander. Elizabeth reigned for nearly fifty years, and only 180 Catholics were executed. That’s an average of four people executed a year, in a Kingdom that was Catholic before her. If she really wanted to kill Catholics for religious reasons, she would have carried out a real massacre, killing thousands or millions of people throughout her reign.

She actually reigned about 44 1/2 years (ironically, I am writing this on the day of the funeral of Queen Elizabeth II): (17 November 1558 – 24 March 1603). Elizabeth was arguably even more intolerant and bloodthirsty (towards Catholics) than her father, the Butcher-Tyrant Henry VIII. During her reign (17 November 1558 – 24 March 1603), there were 312 executions (most involving horrible prolonged tortures) or confessors’ deaths rotting away or starving to death in prisons for the “treasonous crime” of being Catholic. Lucas himself, in referring to the numbers of deaths in the Inquisition in a related paper, acknowledged that deaths in prison should be included in calculations:

The problem with this is that it completely disregards . .. (1) all those who died in prison, awaiting trial or after being sentenced to life imprisonment; . . . (Brief rebuttal to five tactics of Catholic revisionists on the Inquisition, 8-30-17).

Now here he is committing the very same thing that he decried if Catholics do it.

So far we have been counting Elizabeth’s English victims only. There were also about 210 Irish victims, for a grand total of 522 martyrs of the Catholic faith under “Good Queen Bess”.

Henry VIII averaged about 16 executions or horrible starving deaths of Catholics a year, after he started murdering them in 1534. Elizabeth averaged almost 12 per year for her entire 44 years and and 4 months reign. So she showed herself on average to be about 75% as savage and vicious as her illustrious father, in terms of the frequency and rate of the butchery.

Elizabeth was just getting warmed up for the real bloodbath. After 1585 it was “treason” to be a priest and to set foot in England at all. If we do the averages for 1580-1603 it comes out to 20 martyrdoms a year, which rate puts even Henry the Butcher to shame. Here are some delightful examples, from my comprehensive description of all of the English martyrs:

Blessed John Felton was taken to the Tower on 26 May 1570, where he was thrice racked. He was condemned on 4 August and executed in St. Paul’s Churchyard, London on 8 August, 1570. He was hanged but cut down alive for quartering, and his daughter bore witness that he uttered the name of Jesus once or twice when the hangman had his heart in his hand.

Blessed John Story was a member of the English Parliament in 1547. In 1560 he opposed the Bill of Supremacy , and incurred the ire of Queen Elizabeth. In August 1570, he was locked in the Tower of London and repeatedly tortured (including racking). He was hanged, drawn, and quartered at Tyburn on the 1st of June 1571.

Blessed Thomas Woodhouse was a Catholic priest who was executed at Tyburn on 19 June, 1573, being disemboweled alive.

Blessed John Nelson was a Jesuit priest, who was executed at Tyburn on February 3, 1578. He was hung and cut down alive, his heart cut out, then quartered.

Blessed Thomas Nelson was a Jesuit student who was hanged, drawn, and quartered at Tyburn on the same day of February 3, 1578.

Blessed Thomas Sherwood was hanged, drawn, and quartered at Tyburn on February 7, 1579.

St. Alexander Briant was a priest who was arrested on 28 April 1581, sent to the Tower and subjected to excruciating tortures. To the rack, starvation, and cold was added the inhuman forcing of needles under the nails. He was hanged, drawn, and quartered on 1 December 1581.

St. Edmund Campion, the famous Jesuit priest, was subjected to repeated tortures and was questioned in the presence of Elizabeth, who asked him if he acknowledged her to be the true Queen of England. He replied in the affirmative, and she offered him wealth and dignities, but on conditions which his conscience could not allow (rejection of his Catholic faith), so he was hanged, drawn, and quartered on the same day of 1 December 1581. He stated at the end of his “trial”:

In condemning us, you condemn all your own ancestors — all the ancient priests, bishops, and kings — all that was once the glory of England, the island of saints, and the most devoted child of the See of Peter. For what have we taught, however you may qualify it with the odious name of treason, that they did not uniformly teach?

St. Ralph Sherwin was a priest who was imprisoned on 4 December 1577 in the Tower of London, where he was tortured on the rack and then laid out in the snow. He was personally offered a bishopric by Elizabeth I if he forsook his Catholic faith, but he refused, so he was hanged, drawn and quartered at Tyburn on the same day as St. Edmund Campion and St. Alexander Briant.

Blessed John Slade was hanged, drawn, and quartered on 2 November 1583 at Winchester, England.

Blessed George Haydock was hanged, drawn, and quartered at Tyburn on 12 February 1584, and was still alive when he was disemboweled.

Blessed Thomas Hemerford, Blessed John Munden, and Blessed John Nutter were all priests who were hanged, drawn, and quartered at Tyburn on that same blasphemous, murderous day.

St. Richard Gwyn (or, White) was murdered by Good Queen Bess in Wrexham on 15 October 1584. When he appeared dead they cut him down, but he revived and remained conscious through the disemboweling, until his head was severed.

St. Margaret Clitherow: on Good Friday of 1586, for the crime of harboring priests, was laid out upon a sharp rock, and a door was put on top of her and loaded with an immense weight of rocks and stones. Death occurred within fifteen minutes.

This will suffice to show the pattern. Many more gory examples are in my paper where I document all this.

Catholic Bloody Mary killed many more in much less time (almost three hundred burned in just five years).

According to Eamon Duffy, Fires of Faith: Catholic England Under Mary Tudor (New Haven: Yale University Press: 2009, p. 79), she executed 283, most by burning. That’s terrible; I don’t condone it at all (as a passionate defender of religious toleration), and it was a higher rate than Elizabeth,  but the fact remains that Elizabeth’s overall totals were higher (at least 522 Catholic martyrs). If the points being made were that she was tolerant, as a good Protestant over against the wicked bloodthirsty Catholics (and/or represents a supposed typical early Protestant tolerance), they all totally fail. She was no more humane, either. Being racked, disemboweled, or having one’s heart cut out is not exactly a Sunday picnic, either.

Furthermore, in Elizabeth’s first ten full years, no one was killed, which challenges the thesis that she was out to “persecute Catholics”.

This is untrue, since at least twelve died in prison in abominable conditions up to 1568, as I documented (including six Catholic bishops and two priests). If you put someone in prison with little or no food and atrocious living conditions and they die, the one who did that murdered them (this is what the Nazis did in their camps, after all). Lucas himself acknowledged this in another paper of his, as I documented above. But it’s true that she didn’t persecute Catholics as much till 1870. The Elizabeth.org site explains why

It was only as the Catholic threat against Elizabeth from Europe heightened as the reign progressed, that the Elizabethan government had to take a harsher stance against Catholics than they had initially anticipated. Some of Elizabeth’s ministers, such as Sir Francis Walsingham, were zealously committed to the Protestant cause and wished to persecute Catholics in England, but their ambitions were always held in check by the Queen. For the first decade of the reign, the Catholics suffered little. It was not until the Papal Bull of 1570 that the situation changed.

The new pope, Pius V, did not like Elizabeth. Like all Catholics, he believed she was illegitimate, and thus had no right to the throne of England. Catholics believed that the true Queen of the land was Mary Queen of Scots. In 1570 he issued a bull “Regnans in Excelsis” (a papal document) against Elizabeth, that excommunicated her and absolved all her subjects from allegiance to her and her laws. This was a drastic step, and one that was not approved of by Philip II of Spain, or some English Catholics, who knew that this would make things difficult for Catholics in England. (“Queen Elizabeth I and Catholics”)

Lucas also noted this factor in his article. It hardly gets her off the hook or proves the imaginary fiction that Protestants never hurt a flea in those times. But at least it helps explain the increase.

[N]early all of those 180 who were killed in Elizabeth’s reign were Jesuit missionaries

There were plenty of commoners or laymen, too, as I documented. But I don’t have data about the affiliation of all the known priests.

Slander 8: Calvin gave rise to state totalitarianism in Geneva, with its regulations against dancing, drunkenness, gambling, luxury, etc.

Answer: These laws existed long before the Reformation came to Geneva. The Geneva archives of the early 16th and 15th centuries show the existence of these laws and of condemnations in function of them when Calvin and the Protestant Reformation did not yet exist, and Geneva was still a Catholic state.

I’ll take Lucas’ word for it on this issue, because it’s not my topic, anyway. But I want to quibble with one thing in this section:

[T]here was a reason why both the Catholics of old and the Protestant Calvinists maintained such regulations: the extreme immorality of the Genevans, which sometimes led to excesses of laws like these, in a desperate attempt at social control. This immorality was not created by Protestants, but rather a “cursed inheritance” left by Papists from ancient times.

This is inaccurate, and we know so for sure, because Calvin himself (as in many similar letters from Luther) told us so in a letter of 1543 (Letter #100), where he specifically states that the people who had received the “Evangel” (i.e., the Gospel, or Protestantism, from his perspective) were till quite unworthy in behavior:

We acknowledge that point of your letter to be very true, that the plague which we have in our town is a scourge of God, and we confess that we are justly punished on account of our faults and demerits. We do not doubt also, that by this mean he admonishes us to examine ourselves, to lead and draw us to repentance. Wherefore, we take in good part what you have said, that it is time for us to return to God, to ask and to obtain pardoning mercy from him. . . .

[W]e who know by his Evangel how we ought to serve and honour him, do not make strict account in our discharge of duty, so that the word of life is as if it were idle and unproductive among us. We have no wish to justify ourselves by condemning others. For in so far as it has pleased God to withdraw us out of the horrible darkness wherein we were, and to enlighten us in the knowledge of the right way of salvation, we are so much the more blamable if we are negligent in doing our duty, as it is written, “The servant knowing the will of his master, and not doing it, shall be severely punished.” (Luke xii.) So that we ought not to be astonished if our Lord should visit us twofold, on account of our ingratitude which is in us, when we do not walk as children of the light, and produce no fruit of that holy calling to which he hath called us. Moreover, he threatens that judgment shall begin at his own house; that is to say, that he will correct his servants first of all. (1 Pet. iv.) . . .

Calvin had returned to Geneva on 13 September 1541, but here he was in 1543 (probably early in that year) talking about how the Protestants there are “negligent” and guilty of “ingratitude” and “justly punished on account of our faults and demerits.” So this can’t be blamed as a “leftover” from the previous Catholicism of the town.

Slander 9: Protestants “stole” ecclesiastical property in countries that joined the Reformation, and so became rich.

Answer: First, nobody had consulted the people if they wanted to pay tribute to Rome for the maintenance of these “ecclesiastical lands”, which basically were good for nothing other than pilfering the money earned from the hard-earned and honest work of peasant workers. At that time, there were two “tithes”, that of land and that of products, and peasants had to pay the Church obligatorily (in addition to taxes to the government), and not voluntarily, as is the case today in evangelical churches. This generated poverty and popular indignation, not without reason. When Henry VIII took possession of these Church lands in England no one complained, as they reverted to the benefit of the people, since these lands were granted to nobles who allowed the poorest people to work on them.

Lucas is promulgating myths that are the exact opposite of the truth, as I have shown many times:

 *
*
The German Lutherans were already acting in this way by 1530 before Henry began his dirty work. The Holy Roman Emperor Charles V noted this at the Diet of Augsburg in 1530:
Early in July the bishops presented their complaints to the Diet of the plundering and destruction of churches, seizure of monasteries and hospitals, prohibition of Masses, and attacks on religious processions by the Protestants. When Charles called upon the Protestants to restore the property they had seized, they said that to do so would be against their consciences. Charles responded crushingly: ‘The Word of God, the Gospel, and every law civil and canonical, forbid a man to appropriate to himself the property of another.’ He said that as Emperor he had the duty of guarding the rights of all, especially those Catholics unwilling to accept Protestantism or go into exile, who should at least be allowed to remain in their homes and practice their ancestral faith, specifically the Mass; the Protestants replied that they would not tolerate the Mass . . . (Warren Carroll, The Cleaving of Christendom; from the series, A History of Christendom, Volume 4, Front Royal, Virginia: Christendom Press, 2000, 103-107)

Finally, it is a complete daydream to attribute the wealth of Protestant countries solely to the confiscation of Church lands.

It’s a known fact that the Protestants stole all of the monasteries in England and with all that land and wealth the new upper glass “gentry” commenced. Previously, the monasteries — among many other wonderful things — had been the primary welfare system for the poor in England (just as many Catholic social services thrive all around the world today). After they were stolen, no such system replaced that and the lower classes were much worse off: reduced essentially to serfdom. This is common knowledge among historians and anyone with a rudimentary knowledge of 16th century English history. See, for example, the excellent and comprehensive Wikipedia article: “Dissolution of the Monasteries”:

The dissolution of the monasteries, occasionally referred to as the suppression of the monasteries, was the set of administrative and legal processes between 1536 and 1541 by which Henry VIII disbanded monasteries, priories, convents, and friaries in England, Wales, and Ireland, expropriated their income, disposed of their assets, and provided for their former personnel and functions. Although the policy was originally envisaged as increasing the regular income of the Crown, much former monastic property was sold off to fund Henry’s military campaigns in the 1540s. He was given the authority to do this in England and Wales by the Act of Supremacy, passed by Parliament in 1534, which made him Supreme Head of the Church in England, thus separating England from papal authority, and by the First Suppression Act (1535) and the Second Suppression Act (1539). While Thomas Cromwell, Vicar-general and Vice-regent of England, is often considered the leader of the Dissolutions, he merely oversaw the project, one he had hoped to use for reform of monasteries, not closure or seizure. The Dissolution project was created by England’s Lord Chancellor Thomas Audley, and Court of Augmentations head Richard Rich.

Professor George W. Bernard argues that:

The dissolution of the monasteries in the late 1530s was one of the most revolutionary events in English history. There were nearly 900 religious houses in England, around 260 for monks, 300 for regular canons, 142 nunneries and 183 friaries; some 12,000 people in total, 4,000 monks, 3,000 canons, 3,000 friars and 2,000 nuns. If the adult male population was 500,000, that meant that one adult man in fifty was in religious orders. (“The Dissolution of the Monasteries”, History: The Journal of the Historical Association, 9 September 2011, p. 390)

This Wikipedia article has a wealth of information. I highly urge anyone who thinks Lucas’ portrayal of what happened to the monasteries in England is accurate, to read it. It’ll be a huge eye-opener. Secular historian Will Durant gave an apt summary of how a Catholic would have viewed all these sorts of scandalous events:

Your emphasis on faith as against works was ruinous . . . for a hundred years charity almost died in the centers of your victory . . . You destroyed nearly all the schools we had established, and you weakened to the verge of death the universities that the Church had created and developed. Your own leaders admit that your disruption of the faith led to a dangerous deterioration of morals both in Germany and England. . . .

You expropriated Church property to give it to the state and the rich, but you left the poor poorer than before, and added contempt to misery . . . You rejected the papacy only to exalt the state: you gave to selfish princes the right to determine the religion of their subjects . . . You divided nation against nation, and many a nation and city against itself; you wrecked the international moral checks on national powers, and created a chaos of warring national states . . . You claimed the right of private judgment, but you denied it to others as soon as you could . . . (The Reformation, ibid., 936-937)

Slander 10: Protestants are to blame for the wars of religion of those centuries.

I don’t make this argument, either. There was plenty of blame for all parties concerned with regard to the endless wars that occurred in these times.

***

In summary, I’d like to cite Protestant church historian Roland Bainton, who wrote the most well-known biography of Martin Luther, Here I Stand (1950), from his book chapter, “Luther’s Attitudes on Religious Liberty”: from the book, Studies on the Reformation (Boston: Beacon Press, 1963). Bainton (1894-1984) was a congregational minister and Titus Street Professor of Ecclesiastical History at Yale University, where he taught for 42 years. He authored more than thirty books on Christianity. Here is what he thought about Luther’s views and general early Protestant intolerance:

The Protestant Reformation itself has at times been credited with the rise of religious liberty but such a statement can be made only with distinct reserve . . . The outstanding reformers of the sixteenth century were in no sense tolerant. Luther in 1530 acquiesced in the death penalty for Anabaptists and Calvin instigated the execution of Servetus, while Melanchthon applauded. The reformers can be ranged on the side of liberty only if the younger Luther be pitted against the older or the left wing of the Reformation against the right . . . The opinion of the dominant group was expressed with pithy brutality by Theodore Beza when he stigmatized religious liberty as a most diabolical dogma because it means that everyone should be left to go to hell in his own way. . . .

We may sum up Luther’s attitude to the Catholics during this period by saying that in his sober moments, at least, he objected to taking their lives. He was opposed to mob violence, would have the magistrate confine himself to the elimination of abuses, and would leave the work of positive reformation to the clergy. At the same time Luther indulged in incendiary utterances likely to inspire the very lawlessness which he deplored. . . .

By the beginning of March 1530 Luther gave his consent to the death penalty for Anabaptists, but on the ground that they were not only blasphemers, but highly seditious.

[“Seditiossimi.” BR, 1532 (end of Feb. 1530). Luther to Menius and Mykonius commending their plan to write against the Anabaptists. When the work appeared, Luther wrote a preface, WA, XXX, p. 211 f. Neither Menius nor Luther was specific as to penalties. Menius’ tract is in the Wittenberg edition of Luther’s works, Vol. 2, pp. 299b-301a (1551) ]

Those who rush into the temple and blaspheme, should, on a second offense, receive the penalty of sedition. Here blasphemy seems to constitute the sedition. [BR, 1578 (June 1, 1530) ] In August he was pleased with the rumor of the execution of Campanus. [BR, 1672 (Aug. 3, 1530) ] In The Exposition of the Eighty-second Psalm in the same year blasphemy was put on a par with sedition. [WA, XXXI, 207] Nothing was said definitely as to the punishment, but death was almost certainly intended, for Luther had long recognized it as the current penalty for blasphemy. [WA, VI, 229. Cf. Volker, p. 91 and Paulus, p. 36, note 4] A direct appeal was made to the example of Moses, who commanded blasphemers to be stoned. [WA, XXXI, 209 (1530) ] Luther was no longer deterred because the Jews persecuted the true prophets. That was no reason for not stoning the false. [WA, XXXI, 213] The executioner should dispose of unauthorized preachers even though orthodox. [WA. XXXI, 212] It is not likely that the unorthodox would fare better, however authorized.

[ . . . ]

Any doors which Luther might have left open in the second period from 1525 to 1530 were closed by Melanchthon in the memorandum of 1531. Rejection of the ministerial office was described as insufferable blasphemy, and destruction of the Church was considered sedition against the ecclesiastical order, punishable like other sedition. Luther added his assent,

for though it seems cruel to punish them with the sword, it is more cruel that they damn the ministry of the Word, have no certain teaching, and suppress the true, and thus upset society. [CR, IV, 739-740 (1531). Wappler, Inquisition, 61-62; Paulus, 41-43]

The second memorandum composed by Melanchthon and signed by Luther in 1536 is of extreme importance in making clear what was involved. The circumstance was that Philip of Hesse who steadfastly refused to go beyond banishment and imprisonment in matters of faith, invited the theologians in a number of localities to give him advice. One of the most severe among the replies was that which came from Wittenberg. In this document the Anabaptists were declared to be seditious and blasphemous, but in what did their sedition consist? The answer was: not by reason of armed revolution, but on the contrary, by reason of pacifism.. . .

This document makes it perfectly plain that the Anabaptists were revolutionary, not in the sense of physical violence, but in the sense that their program entailed a complete reorientation of Church, state and society. For this they were to be put to death.

Luther himself took the initiative in treating absence from Church as blasphemy, to be met with the threat of banishment and excommunication. [BR, 2075 (1533) ] In 1536 he had come to regard imprisonment and death as preferable to banishment, which simply spread the infection elsewhere, [BR, 3034 (June 7, 1536) ] and in 1538 he himself revised the Visitation Articles, omitting the passage which gave consideration to the weak. [WA, I, 625]

There is much, more more, including massive documentation of Luther’s own words, in my abridged (but still very lengthy) version of this article. It was written by a man who loved Martin Luther; one who had no motivation whatsoever to exaggerate or distort Luther’s views in this regard. I can relate. Luther was a huge hero of mine, too, when I was a Protestant, and I still admire several things about him (while detesting many others). Bainton was greatly saddened and disappointed to learn of these things (he could no longer believe the prevalent myths), as he wrote near the beginning of this essay:

My first study of Luther was a paper dealing with his attitude to religious liberty in 1929. It was written at a time when I felt intense resentment against him because he spoke so magnificently for liberty in the early 1520s and condoned the death penalty for Anabaptists a decade later. Having worked eight years on a biography of Luther in the 1940s, anger changed to sadness through the discovery that in this case, as often elsewhere, it is the saints who burn the saints. This essay has been thoroughly rewritten.

Non-Catholic historians and other scholars who have actually studied the period concur with this assessment. Here are two examples:

If any one still harbors the traditional prejudice that the early Protestants were more liberal, he must be undeceived. Save for a few splendid sayings of Luther, confined to the early years when he was powerless, there is hardly anything to be found among the leading reformers in favor of freedom of conscience. As soon as they had the power to persecute they did. (Preserved Smith, The Social Background of the Reformation, New York: Collier Books, 1962 [2nd part of author’s The Age of the Reformation, New York: 1920], 177)

The Reformers themselves . . . e.g., Luther, Beza, and especially Calvin, were as intolerant to dissentients as the Roman Catholic Church. (F. L. Cross  & E. A. Livingstone, editors, The Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church, Oxford: Oxford University Press, 2nd edition, 1983, 1383)

***

See my web page: Protestantism: Historic Persecution & Intolerance.

***

Practical Matters: Perhaps some of my 4,000+ free online articles (the most comprehensive “one-stop” Catholic apologetics site) or fifty books have helped you (by God’s grace) to decide to become Catholic or to return to the Church, or better understand some doctrines and why we believe them.

Or you may believe my work is worthy to support for the purpose of apologetics and evangelism in general. If so, please seriously consider a much-needed financial contribution. I’m always in need of more funds: especially monthly support. “The laborer is worthy of his wages” (1 Tim 5:18, NKJV). 1 December 2021 was my 20th anniversary as a full-time Catholic apologist, and February 2022 marked the 25th anniversary of my blog.

PayPal donations are the easiest: just send to my email address: apologistdave@gmail.com. You’ll see the term “Catholic Used Book Service”, which is my old side-business. To learn about the different methods of contributing, including 100% tax deduction, etc., see my page: About Catholic Apologist Dave Armstrong / Donation InformationThanks a million from the bottom of my heart!

***

Summary: Brazilian Protestant apologist Lucas Banzoli came up with ten “Catholic Slanders of the Reformation”. I refute with facts the many myths & whoppers therein.

 

August 13, 2022

This is taken from a lengthy dialogue from the initial version of my website, dated 23 January 2002. Portions of it were utilized in chapter 13: “The Blessed Virgin Mary” from my 2004 book, The Catholic Verses: 95 Bible Passages That Confound Protestants [see: Luke 1:28 (“Full of Grace”) & Immaculate Conception]. Here I preserve the parts of the original dialogue that were not included in my book. My opponents’ words (from the old God Talk public Internet Bulletin Board) will be in blue.

*****

Acts 6:8 “And Stephen, full of grace and power, did great wonders and signs among the people.

The argument [is] that if the Immaculate Conception is implied by Mary being “full of grace”, then why isn’t Stephen?

In Acts 6:8, the phrase is pleres charitos, not kecharitomene, as in Luke 1:28. I have already noted what the latter phrase means, according to Greek scholars. Greek scholar Marvin Vincent (Word Studies in the New Testament) notes that even Wycliffe and Tyndale (no fanatical supporters of the Catholic Church, they) both rendered kecharitomene in Luke 1:28 as “full of grace,” in their Bible translations. The Revised Version of the KJV (1885) had “endued with grace” in the margin, and this is the literal translation of kecharitomene, according to Vincent (vol. 1, 259).

So it appears that many Bible versions are not applying the principle of literal translation when it comes to Luke 1:28 A.T. Robertson concurs with Vincent, in holding that kecharitomene means “endowed with grace” or “enriched with grace” (Word Pictures in the New Testament, vol. 2, 13). Likewise, W.E. Vine, who defines it as “to endue with Divine favour or grace” (An Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words, vol. 2, 171). These are all Protestant reference works, and cannot, therefore, be accused of Catholic bias in translation or definition.

The bias (if there is any here) would seem, however, to be evident in some Protestant commentaries (on Lk 1:28):

‘Favoured’ means simply that God graciously chose Mary to be the mother of Jesus and not that she was ‘full of grace’. (Eerdmans Bible Commentary)The mistake of the Vulgate’s rendering, ‘full of grace,’ has been taken abundant advantage of by the Romish Church . . . let them listen to the Lord’s own words. ‘Nay, rather blessed are they that hear the word of God and keep it.’ (See on ch. 11:27). (Commentary on the Whole Bible: Jamieson, Fausset, and Brown)

This is what happens when one looks at Bible commentary (or translation, for that matter) as a polemical tool to promulgate prior theological predispositions, rather than letting the Bible speak for itself, and following it wherever it leads.

If Mary’s name was changed to “full of grace” why is she called Mary in every other place she is mentioned in the NT? Simon was called Peter elsewhere, Abram was called Abraham, Sarai was called Sarah etc. etc. etc. It seems to me that if your name is really changed, your new name would actually be used.

The argument was not, technically, that Mary’s name was changed; just that she was called this name by an angel (in the sense of a title, or additional identifier), and that that act could not possibly be without significance, in the Hebraic (and biblical) worldview. Consider this analogy: “If Jesus’ name was ‘Prince of Peace’ [Isaiah 9:6] why is He called ‘Jesus’ in most places He is mentioned in the NT?”

This is the only time that I know of that Jesus is called “Prince of Peace.” It isn’t even used in the New Testament. Yet in Isaiah 9:6, the text (RSV) says that “he shall be called . . . Prince of Peace” (and three other titles which weren’t used all that often referring to Jesus, if at all — two seem to apply more directly to the Father and the Spirit).

The same holds true for “Emmanuel” (Matthew 1:23), derived from Isaiah 7:14 and 8:8. Is 7:14 states “. . .. shall call his name Immanuel.” Mt 1:23 quotes this passage: “. . . ‘his name shall be called Emmanuel’ (which means, God with us).” Yet the title (name?) appears nowhere else in the New Testament, not even in the other Gospels. It doesn’t have to. Once is more than enough, in biblical thought.

The point is that all names in Scripture have a high symbolic and descriptive significance, usually indicative of a person’s character, nature, or leading personality trait (one need only look up “Names” in any Bible Dictionary). A person’s name doesn’t have to be changed — in terms of exclusive use of a different name thereafter (or the specific title used often) for this to apply, as the examples above concerning Jesus have shown.

Thus, the fact that Mary is called “Full of Grace” one time does not lessen the significance of this address at all (particularly since it came from the angel Gabriel). But the fact that this title was applied to her, uniquely, as an individual, is supremely important, and altogether in line with the Catholic doctrine of the Immaculate Conception (though not an airtight “proof” in and of itself — Catholics deny sola Scriptura anyway, so our view doesn’t absolutely require such “proof texts”).

Modern scholarship has dismissed the translation “full of grace” as a nonviable rendition of charitoo. BAGD, for instance, translates the word as ” one who has been favored by God.” Louw and Nida has “you to whom (the Lord) has shown kindness.” Even a Catholic source such as Zerwick avoids the  translation “full of grace,” opting instead for the less theologically loaded phrases “endowed with grace; dearly loved.” The MNT taskforce translates it as “graciously favored by God,” while noting that the Douay Rheims translation, “full of grace,” “is not literal and is gradually being replaced among Roman Catholic translators.” The most recent standard Catholic translations, the NAB and the JB, have followed suit in their renditions ( NAB, “O highly favored daughter”; JB, “So highly favored” . . . [citation from Dr. Eric Svendsen: Who is My Mother?(Calvary Press: 2001), 129]

Translation controversies will go on till kingdom come. In a linguistic dispute such as this, it is necessary to look at the phrase or word in question more closely, which we have done. It may be rendered variously, but the meaning is a deeper project of inquiry: more particular, specific, and nuanced (as words have different meanings in the first place, according to context, the writer’s purpose, type of language or style being used, and exegesis).

Catholics have nothing to fear on this issue from either linguistics or exegesis, whereas the Protestant objections are easily overcome by recourse to both sources of knowledge. Nothing in Scripture is contradictory to the Immaculate Conception. It cannot be shown to be unbiblical or anti-biblical. But it can be shown to entirely consistent with biblical teachings as a whole. I suspect that this is one reason that even such a one as Martin Luther believed in the Immaculate Conception of the Blessed Virgin Mary.

I don’t claim that these biblical and linguistic arguments support Catholic belief with regard to the time of the Immaculate Conception. The exact time of the miracle is not of the essence of the doctrine, which is that Mary is sinless, and was sinless when the Annunciation occurred and the angel Gabriel addressed her in this extraordinary way.

Catholics, it must be understood,  are only arguing that the Immaculate Conception is harmonious with Scripture and matters of Greek language and grammar. I don’t accept sola Scriptura, and I don’t believe that all doctrines have to be proven, whole and entire, and explicitly from Scripture (neither do Protestants, in the final analysis, when it comes to sola Scriptura itself, and the canon of the NT). I have never denied that there is a speculative, deductive element to the doctrine (just as there is with the Trinity and many other Christian doctrines).

But Protestants are compelled by their own belief-system and opposition to so-called “extra-biblical” Catholic doctrines, to demonstrate how the Immaculate Conception is unbiblical or contrary to anything else in Holy Scripture. My observations and apologetic arguments are undertaken always with that perspective in mind, according to Paul’s evangelistic principle, “I have become all things to all people.” “To the Protestant I became as a Protestant.” Etc.

All I have been arguing is that the Immaculate Conception is consistent with the biblical data. Protestants often try to show that it can’t be absolutely proven from the Bible, in a sola Scriptura sense. Since I never claimed that it could be (nor does any apologist I am aware of), those contentions are completely irrelevant to the “case” I have set forth.

Yes, the words are different, but Dr. Svendsen explains how they are from the same Greek root.

So what?

And he points out that Sirach 18:17 uses the exact same word, same tense, everything that Luke uses, which completely disproves your point.

Not at all. That verse is in a general sense. In my RSV translation it refers to a “gracious man.” Besides, this is proverbial, or wisdom literature, and it is a standard hermeneutical principle that this is not exactly the sort of biblical literature that one builds doctrines or systematic theology (or even precise meanings of words) upon. On those grounds alone, it is quite easy to decisively overcome Dr. Svendsen’s rather weak argument. The classic example which illustrates the “non-Greek” nature of proverbial Hebrew literature is the following coupling of verses (RSV):

Proverbs 26:4  Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest you be like him yourself.

*

Proverbs 26:5  Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own eyes.

In a proverbial framework, what may appear to be contradictory is not, because application depends on the situation, timing, prudence, discretion, discernment, the wisdom to know when which response is called-for, and so forth. So use of such a verse in the present context of cross-reference to Luke 1:28 and an angel’s salutation of the Blessed Virgin is no disproof at all.

. . .  you can glean the proper meaning from fool in the whole context. This in no way mitigates the usefulness of Sir. 18:17 in understanding what kecharitomene means.

It does (even if I grant your point, which I do not grant, since meaning still depends on context, as any lexicon will prove in a minute), because the application is of a general nature. Thus, the cross-exegesis runs into the same insuperable problems that Ephesians 1:6 did. Nor do any of these supposed “disproofs” have anything to do with the fact that Mary was addressed as a title (with all that that implies in the Hebrew and biblical mind).

The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia (ed. James Orr, Grand Rapids, Michigan: Eerdmans, 1939, 1956, vol. 4, 2807), confirms my understanding of Sirach, in its lengthy article on the book:

The book follows the lines of the canonical Book of Prov[erbs], and is made up of short pithy sayings with occasional longer discussions . . . Most of the book is poetical in form and even in the prose parts the parallelism of Heb[rew] poetry is found . . . an examination of the book itself confirms, that the compiler and author put his materials together with little or no regard to logical connection . . . The Hebrews never developed a theoretical or speculative theology or philosophy: all their thinking gathered about life and conduct . . . This is the only philosophy which the  Bible and the so-called Apoc[rypha] teach, and it is seen at its highest point in the so-called Wisdom Literature.

And so we find the same sort of non-systematic, practical, “empirical” wisdom in the following pair of couplets from Sirach (aka Ecclesiasticus – RSV):

29:14  A good man will be surety for his neighbor . . .29:18  Being surety has ruined many men who were prosperous . . .

And:

25:19, 24  Any iniquity is insignificant compared to a wife’s iniquity; may a sinner’s lot befall her . . . From a woman sin had its beginning, and because of her we all die. (cf. 25:13, 16-18, 20, 23)

36:24  He who acquires a wife gets his best possession, a helper fit for him and a pillar of support.

I don’t know about the exact term used in Sirach 18:17, but I’ll take Dr. Svendsen’s word for it. The type of literature still must be taken into account. I didn’t pursue this argument primarily because my Greek reference works don’t include the Deuterocanonical books in their analysis, since they don’t regard them as Scripture. And there is no sense arguing about a verse in a Deuterocanonical book with Protestants because if one succeeds, they will always simply say, “but that ain’t Scripture, anyway.” If Protestants and Catholics are to argue about Bible interpretation, they can only limit themselves to books both parties agree are biblical books.

Of course, whether or not a type of literature is developed “theologically or speculatively” has nothing to do with the definition of a term. Words have meaning. All we’re interested in is the meaning of the word kecharitomene. Sir. 18:17 gives us an example of the word in use. If the word kecharitomene has to mean “full of grace” then this must be applied to the “gracious man”. If kecharitomene does not have to mean “full of grace” then your argument collapses.

Words indeed have meaning, but the variance in precise definition, according to context is quite wide, as any lexicon makes abundantly clear. When Little Kittel discusses charis (grace) — it places charitoo under that category — it goes on for seven large pages, giving a host of nuanced meanings of the word. It is not, then, just a simple matter of coming up with one definition and applying it to all usages, across the board. If you believe that, then you are truly a rookie Bible student and have tons of things yet to learn.

If it doesn’t have to mean “full of grace” then how do you know that in Mary’s case it means “full of grace” but for the “gracious man” it only means gracious? Why can’t it mean that Mary is merely a “gracious woman”? We all can agree with that.

Because of context, and because of how the word is applied to her as a title or name.

However, kecharitomene in Luke 1:28 is rendered in English does not nullify or change the fact that it is still a form of charitoo, a word whose root (charis) has the meaning (and translation) of grace in dozens of places in Scripture. That fact cannot be denied, whether one wants to render kecharitomene as “highly-favoured” or what-not. Nor does this overcome my exegetical argument.

If all you are trying to show is that Luke 1:28 does not contradict the IC, then I don’t think anybody would disagree with that. But we’re under the impression that you are trying to present an argument for the IC.

Yes, it is a Catholic biblical argument for the Immaculate Conception, but Protestants must understand that we are not presupposing sola Scriptura as we argue points from the Bible. I don’t adopt a stance just for fun, or for rhetorical purposes only. I try to relate to the view of my opponent as much as possible, but I always argue (even if I am doing an occasional explicitly satirical piece) within my own framework of authority and theology, until someone shows me a superior framework to adopt.

My framework is the acceptance of the material sufficiency of Holy Scripture (within an overall schema or paradigm of development of doctrine within Scripture itself, and in the post-apostolic era, continuing in perpetuity, guided by the Holy Spirit on an ecclesiological level), but not its formal sufficiency, which is what sola Scriptura entails.

I could contend, for example, based on my argumentation, that Lk 1:28 suggests the IC, is harmonious with it, is perfectly consistent with the notion; that the IC is the best interpretation of that verse, taken in conjunction with other related cross-references, that nothing there or elsewhere in Scripture contradicts it or makes it impossible to hold, etc., without logically falling into a category of claiming that the doctrine is absolutely proven by Luke 1:28, in the way that many doctrines are unarguable from Scripture by itself.

Possibly Mary’s sinlessness could be proven by the verse, but I’m not sure I would even (decisively) claim that at this point: only that it is very strongly suggested to me, after studying other instances of charitoo, and the meaning of this particular form of it: kecharitomene. I feel that my present argument is an exploratory one, and I find the opposing arguments thus far very weak, so that confirms my present tentative opinion (as to the merits of this particular biblical argument), and makes it all the stronger, for now, anyway. This is one of the blessings of apologetics. :-)

I thought time was absolutely essential to the IC. I thought for the IC it was important that Mary was endowed with special grace at conception. I’m not too well read on this, but I thought the whole debate between the Dominicans and Franciscans regarding the IC came down to just a few hours. The Dominicans rejected the IC, but actually believed that Mary was still cleansed in utero, just a few hours after conception.

Yes, that is the doctrine itself. But — this is crucial — I am distinguishing between the full definition as now held, and the kernel, or essence of the doctrine. For example, the kernel of transubstantiation is the Real Presence. The former is a development of, and elaboration upon the latter. Likewise, the IC is a development of the notion that Mary is sinless, which was held by the Fathers, and is held by the Orthodox today.

I would deny that the essence of the IC is sinlessness. We think the essence of the IC is that Mary was immaculate at conception.

Again, you are thinking in terms of the present definition. I am looking at the doctrine as it developed through history, and at possible biblical kernels, or implicit indications of it (Luke 1:28 has long been a primary Catholic argument for it, as far as I know). The kernel or essence is clearly sinlessness, in conjunction, particularly, with the New Eve, or Second Eve motif in the Fathers (e.g., Irenaeus). The IC developed from that.

The Church as a whole pondered what it meant to be sinless and what was entailed in being the Theotokos. It was thought that the Mother of God (the Son) would be properly sinless, and that (with the Assumption) she would be immediately resurrected after this life in order to be the “firstfruits” of the resurrection all (created) saints will attain eventually.

And this is the Apostolic Tradition which was handed down, along with the Virgin Birth, perpetual virginity, and other beliefs. So the sinlessness is the essence. Then it develops to pondering how original sin (itself another development) enters into the equation (as opposed to actual sin alone), and in what sense Mary called Jesus her Savior (which was Aquinas’ argument against it — but he was, in point of fact, arguing against something different than our present definition).

Then the notion was arrived at that one can be saved by being prevented from entering into sin from the outset by the grace of God, as well as by being pulled out of the pit of sin (redeemed), having already fallen into it, as we all do, due to original sin. That was how the fully-developed doctrine came about. The propriety (and inevitability) of development of doctrine itself is, of course, another huge subject. I believe I have more material about that on my site than can be found anywhere else on the Internet.

It looks like we agree that Luke 1:28 is not evidence that Mary was immaculate at conception, and for this reason we don’t think it provides any evidence for the IC.

Again, it may not for the belief in toto, but it does in the sense I have described above, which was my intent in the first place. It supports the essence. Most Protestant thinkers and opponents of Catholic doctrine would, I think, all things being equal, assume that the IC could easily be disproven from Scripture. My point is that I don’t think it can be; not that it can be absolutely proven from Scripture alone. This is another crucial point to understand about my argument, and what I claim for it. But if you approach the argument as insufficient because it doesn’t prove every particular aspect of the IC, then in that sense it will not provide “any evidence.”

Yet consistency with Scripture and exhaustive, “airtight” evidence are two different things. Protestants are on shakier ground even in that sense, because they can’t prove Scripture Alone from Scripture alone, yet they make that tenet one of their pillars. It’s a self-defeating endeavor. Catholics, never having accepted the unbiblical notion of Bible Alone as the Final Authority above authoritative Councils, Church, and tradition, do not have any such self-defeating dilemma to grapple with.

For the sake of brevity, please answer this question. Is it your position that Luke 1:28 positively teaches that Mary was immaculately conceived?

No. I have never stated that. You have superimposed that understanding into my argument, presumably because of your prior commitment to sola Scriptura, which leads you to believe that all biblical arguments present doctrines whole and entire in the pages of Holy Writ.

If kecharitomene means highly favored and not full of grace your argument has been disproven.

The word comes from the root word which is used tons of times in Scripture for “grace,” so it is not impermissible to render it as “full of grace” (as even Wycliffe and Tyndale did). Vine, Robertson and other lexicons support this interpretation.

The root word charis is translated in the KJV (I cite Young’s Concordance) as follows:

benefit 1
favour 6
grace 129
liberality 1
pleasure 2
thank 3
thanks 4
acceptable 1
gracious 1
thankworthy 1

The more closely related charitoo is rendered “make accepted” once and “highly favoured” once (at Lk 1:28). It is noted that the marginal rendering is “graciously accepted or much graced”. But you wish to argue that a word derived from a root Greek word which is translated as “grace” 87% of the 149 times it occurs in the KJV, cannot possibly be translated with “grace” anywhere in it? Even in your “proof text” Sirach 18:17, kecharitomene is rendered as “gracious,” so obviously, such a translation is permissible.

I’m much more interested in replies to my exegetical argument, whereby grace is shown to be antithetical to sin, and is in relation to it as water is to the air in an empty glass. The more you pour the water in, the less air there is. A full glass of water has no air. A person full of grace has no sin. Why would that be an impermissible opinion, given what we know about grace in Scripture? Even A.T. Robertson thinks that “full of grace” is a perfectly permissible rendering of kecharitomene in Luke 1:28.

1) Nobody has argued that Lk 1:28 is not harmonious or is inconsistent with the IC.

Good.

2) Some argumentation has been presented to indicate that the IC is not the best interpretation of that verse.

From a Protestant framework, we would expect this. Everyone has a theological paradigm within which they operate.

3) Nobody has made any efforts to show that other things in Scripture indicate that the IC  is false.

Okay.

From what you have posted elsewhere, it seems you have concluded that nobody has responded to you.

No. Mainly I have been saying that no one has responded to my own specifically exegetical argument, having to do with the 14 passages I presented, which showed the (ostensibly uncontroversial notion) that grace is the antithesis of sin and the source of salvation. How I connected that to Luke 1:28 (as a variant of charis/grace) is what I thought was the (perhaps) “new” element of my argument, and what would be fit for vigorous discussion.

It’s the heart of my argument. And, to my knowledge, no one has offered any commentary on that whatever (at least no lengthy, significant reply). What was done was an immediate appeal to arguments against Luke 1:28 by offering Ephesians 1:6, Acts 6:8, and Sirach 18:17 as countering examples of charitoo.

I make a distinction between a self-contained “argument against proposition x” and “counter-reply to an argument for proposition x.” People seem to often get that confused. To me, in a true dialogue, each party will directly reply to the other’s assertions and show how they do not follow (personally, I think that is the most, fun, stimulating, challenging aspect of dialogue). They don’t simply give their arguments without reference to the first person’s argument. I call the second method “mutual monologue.” Maybe this is a weird way of dialoguing; I don’t know. To me it is simply honestly facing the opponent’s challenge and either trying to refute it or conceding ignorance or defeat in that particular.

But I always seem to have trouble getting across analogical arguments. People apparently are not trained in that way of thinking and have a hard time with it, which is strange because it isn’t all that different from OT Hebrew parallelism and NT parables.

Don’t you think it is a significant concession for a Protestant to grant that Mary was, or might be sinless? To me that would be a giant step back towards apostolic tradition, as we view it, and accepting the “essence” of the doctrine, as tied in to the New Eve concept of Irenaeus and others, and the early development of the Theotokos. That’s why I think there is some importance. If a Protestant agrees that the verse is consistent with the IC, Mary would have to then be sinless (for to not be would be an inconsistency with the IC). To me that would be a huge “success” on our part, since that is basically all we’re trying to establish from Scripture, given that there was much development of the doctrine which cannot be explicitly tied to Scripture.

However, if you could show that this kernel inevitably leads to the IC, that would be significant.

It would be quite difficult to convince someone coming from a Protestant perspective of that. One possible way would be to say that she needed a savior, based on her statement in the Magnificat; secondly (if my argument, or the linguistic one succeeds), she is sinless. Connected with those two factors is original sin (which also developed relatively slowly in the early Church, and isn’t even in the Nicene Creed). How a Catholic harmonizes all that, taking into consideration Mary’s role as Theotokos, is to eventually arrive at, or deduce the Immaculate Conception.

But this is all inextricably bound up with (in addition to Scripture) apostolic Tradition, the mind of the Church, the sensus fidelium, the inter-relationship of various doctrinal beliefs, development of doctrine, Christology, pious reflection and practices of veneration, spiritual ponderings, prayer, and so forth. It is a very “un-Protestant” way of “doing” theology. Yet we contend that this was how it was in the early Church.

***

Practical Matters: Perhaps some of my 4,000+ free online articles (the most comprehensive “one-stop” Catholic apologetics site) or fifty books have helped you (by God’s grace) to decide to become Catholic or to return to the Church, or better understand some doctrines and why we believe them.

Or you may believe my work is worthy to support for the purpose of apologetics and evangelism in general. If so, please seriously consider a much-needed financial contribution. I’m always in need of more funds: especially monthly support. “The laborer is worthy of his wages” (1 Tim 5:18, NKJV). 1 December 2021 was my 20th anniversary as a full-time Catholic apologist, and February 2022 marked the 25th anniversary of my blog.

PayPal donations are the easiest: just send to my email address: apologistdave@gmail.com. You’ll see the term “Catholic Used Book Service”, which is my old side-business. To learn about the different methods of contributing, including 100% tax deduction, etc., see my page: About Catholic Apologist Dave Armstrong / Donation InformationThanks a million from the bottom of my heart!

***

Summary: Good discussion about the meaning of “full of grace” in Luke 1:28 & the implications of that for the sinlessness of Mary: suggesting her Immaculate Conception.

 


Browse Our Archives