2024-05-15T13:26:16-04:00

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I will be responding to the video, “A Response to Trent and Suan on the Pauline Parody – ft. A Goy for Jesus” (8-2-22) on The Other Paul [Anglican] YouTube channel. This discussion has quite a history, but many folks reading don’t seem to realize that it initiated with me, thirty years ago. It goes back to one of my most well-known articles:

50 New Testament Proofs for Petrine Primacy & the Papacy [1994]

Evangelical anti-Catholic apologist Jason Engwer replied to that in 2002:

51 Biblical Proofs of a Pauline Papacy and Ephesian Primacy

I responded with:

Reply to Critique of “50 NT Proofs for the Papacy” [3-14-02]

He came back with another attempt:

A Pauline Papacy

And I replied again:

Refutation of a Satirical “Pauline Papacy” Argument [9-30-03]

Suan Sonna and Trent Horn entered the argument 19 years later with their video, The “Pauline parody argument” against the papacy (with Suan Sonna) [7-7-22]

Jason Engwer addressed that, too: Apostolic Primacies [7-27-22]. And now the video I am replying to also enters the fray. The words from the video will be in blue. Jason Engwer’s words will be in green.

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One thing that Jason and some others don’t “get” about my original article (included in my first book, A Biblical Defense of Catholicism), is that it’s not about the alleged overwhelming force of any particular item, but rather, the cumulative effect of all of them together. That was the emphasis of Fr. Peter Stravinskas, when he encouraged me to write the article for his magazine, The Catholic Answer in 1997.

8:42 these are probably our two favorite Catholic apologists. They’re both really nice guys, both smart, . . . even if we disagree with them, they’re not making egregious errors most of the time . . . 

It’s always good to see good faith and courtesy in these debates. Good for them.

11:55 . . . absolutely classic article called “51 Biblical Proofs of a Pauline Papacy and Ephesian Primacy,” which is basically trying to parody an earlier post . . . 

That refers to my original article that kicked off this entire discussion. Jason has been ignoring me since 2010 (he used to reply very vigorously, from 2002 to 2009). So when he reposted his original article from 2002 in 2012, he engaged in the practice of not naming me, which is also notoriously done by anti-Catholic polemicist James Swan, who for years was literally obsessed with my work. It’s an indication of how much they both personally despise me (because I have refuted them so many times). For a while I would respond in the combox at Triablogue, until that site banned me. But Jason only distantly referred to me and my article in 2012:

It was a list of 51 Biblical proofs of a Pauline papacy and Ephesian primacy. I wrote it in response to a Roman Catholic apologist’s list of 50 alleged Biblical proofs of a Petrine papacy. 

“Annoyed Pinoy” in the combox does dare to mention me: 

Jason, I got the impression that you could have included more than 51 “proofs” but that it was enough for you to top Dave Armstrong’s “50 proofs”.

No one could read my original article, to see what Jason was responding to; nor were they made aware of my two later replies. This is standard anti-Catholic (censorship and ignore) practice. It wasn’t always so. In his original reply on his own earlier website in 2002, Jason followed the usual standard practice of naming a dialogue opponent and linking to what was being responded to:

At his web site, Catholic apologist Dave Armstrong has a list of “50 NEW TESTAMENT PROOFS FOR PETRINE PRIMACY AND THE PAPACY” (http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ112.HTM). [see the blog version from 2006]. He says that the evidence “is quite strong, and is inescapably compelling by virtue of its cumulative weight”. In a recent article written in response to me (http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ502.HTM) [defunct link], Dave said:

As I said, Jason is highly encouraged to actually offer reasonable replies to all 50 evidences, as opposed to merely belittling and dismissing them out of hand….

Well, if Jason works up a list of 50 Biblical Proofs Suggesting that John, Not Peter, Was Pope,  I will reply to it, point-by-point, even though Jason won’t grant me that courtesy….

Jason can mock the paper all he wants. The fair-minded reader who seeks truth may wish to take a look at it and see whether the evidences presented, taken together, are as extremely weak and insignificant as he makes them out to be.

Later, Jason kindly linked to my counter-reply [see the article on my original website from 2002] and his reply back. But now I no longer exist, and in fact, never did. How the mighty have fallen . . . 

14:36 it’s a parody showing proof texts for a Pauline Papacy . . . if you’ve been involved with dialogue with Roman Catholics and apologists and scholars . . . you may get the echo in your head [of] certain Petrine proof text arguments . . . a good example [is]:

5. Paul is the only apostle who refers to his authority over all the churches (1 Corinthians 4:177:172 Corinthians 11:28).

like that kind of thing where they point to something uniquely said about Peter, therefore primacy or supremacy, neglecting to consider the possibility that saying something only to someone does not mean that the same was not given to others . . . so it’s kind of a bit of a leap to just say specifically him, therefore only him, but either way, just read through the whole thing. Classic article; absolutely classic.
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Sorry, but I’m not quite as enthralled with it. It was answered rather easily in my first reply:
That’s an authority all apostles had, but it was a temporary office, and so has nothing to do with the question of the papacy as an ongoing office.
I would further add that Paul played a rather minor role in the Jerusalem Council (Acts 15) — his words were not even recorded — , whereas Peter played the leading role. Paul went out proclaiming far and wide what the council had decided (Acts 16:4). That’s precisely “authority over all the churches.” Peter promulgated it, and Paul proclaimed his decree. Jesus specifically commissioned Peter as the leader of the Church in Matthew 16. There’s nothing remotely like that, anywhere, about Paul. So this proves nothing of what it purports to prove, as parody or not.
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16:36 Catholics have been raping the scriptures looking for things . . . any hint . . . I think a lot of this happens with Marian stuff as well, where

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They can describe Catholic apologetics any way they like. In the end, they have to argue points just as we do. The polemics and sweeping derogatory statements prove nothing. I have defended my initial article (twice) and am doing so again now, and will whenever I catch wind of any other critique. It’s not difficult, because these counter-arguments are so weak; many of them missing the point of my article altogether (cumulative evidence).
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30:46 The video shows Catholic Suan Sonna (whose YouTube show I have been on) making an argument that is somewhat critical of one of my 50 arguments:
I see some Catholic apologists use [the argument that] Peter is mentioned this many times in the scriptures and that shows that he has a primacy, I mean it can show that he is an important character, but I think I’ve also seen a lot of accounts that have Paul mentioned more than Peter, but I also don’t think in the first place that’s a good criterion to use how many times someone gets name dropped.
It depends on what one is contending for: what a given argument is intended to prove. As I have reiterated, my argument was a cumulative one. I would never say — and never have — something like, “Peter being mentioned a bunch of times proves he was the pope.” My argument is much more nuanced and subtle. I would say it establishes (as Suan said) “that he is an important character,” which is consistent with the notion that he was the first pope. That’s an entirely different — not nearly as sweeping — argument. I discussed the “numbers thing” in my second reply to Jason:

One must always keep in mind my later clarification and qualification of what I was trying to accomplish (this is now the third and last time I will cite my own words in this vein):

Obviously, passages like the two above wouldn’t “logically lead to a papacy.” But they can quite plausibly be regarded as consistent with such a notion, as part of a demonstrable larger pattern, within which they do carry some force.

Secondly, it should be noted that my original claim was Peter’s frequency of reference in relation to the other disciples, not all the apostles (i.e., the twelve, of which Paul was not one). This makes a big difference. The reasoning thus ran as follows:

1. Peter was the leader of the disciples.

2. This is shown by (among many other indications) the fact that he is mentioned far more than any of the other twelve disciples.

3. By analogy, then, if Peter was the leader of the disciples, then he was the model for the leader of the Church as pope, with other disciples being models of bishops.

If Jason wants to play his reductio game with Paul, he is welcome to do so, but he is responsible for presenting my original claim accurately. As it stands above, it is not at all unreasonable or silly, or anything of the sort. All it is maintaining is that Peter was indisputably the leader of the disciples. The next step to the papacy is one of analogy and plausibility. In any event, I agree with Jason that proofs such as this one, by themselves, do not inexorably lead to a papacy.

I do take exception to the related item in Jason’s 51 arguments:
8. Paul is mentioned more in the New Testament than any other apostle.
As a strictly factual matter, this is untrue. Last November, I revisited this question in an article:

I did a search concerning St. Paul, and his name appears 184 times in the NT (23 of those as Saul). But St. Peter is referenced 191 times (162 as Peter or Simon Peter, 23 as Simon, and 6 as Cephas: derived from the Aramaic kepha; i.e., “rock”). . . .

Moreover, it’s not only the number of times Peter is mentioned; it’s also how he is mentioned. I wrote in my first book, A Biblical Defense of Catholicism:

Peter’s name occurs first in all lists of Apostles (Matth. 10:2; Mark 3:16; Luke 6:14; Acts 1:13). Matthew even calls him the “first” (10:2). (Judas Iscariot is invariably mentioned last.) Peter is almost always named first whenever he appears with anyone else. In one (only?) example to the contrary, Galatians 2:9, where he (Cephas) is listed after James and before John, he is clearly pre-eminent in the entire context (for example, 1:18-19, 2:7-8). . . .

Peter’s name is always the first listed of the “inner circle” of the disciples (Peter, James and John — Matthew 17:1; 26:37, 40; Mark 5:37; 14:37). . . .

31:16 Suan and Trent both acknowledge there’s bad examples that Catholic apologists have have used . . .
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Suan did indeed critique one form of the “numerical argument” that fails. I totally agree with him. My point is that what he critiques was not my own argument, which is much subtler and less sweeping in its ambition.
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31:29  I think the original thing was maybe David Armstrong
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Finally my name got mentioned. It should be, in fairness, since it was my own argument and article (whether it is admired or despised) that kicked off this lengthy discussion, going back 22 years (Jason’s critique) and 30 years to my initial article on Peter’s primacy.
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The video then annoyingly wanders and rambles all over the place, like so many of these videos. It’s immensely frustrating. I submit that written apologetics is exponentially better and more organized . . . Most of these videos need a good editor, if I do say so. I’ve been scrolling through more than an hour of the video, and they scarcely even treat the ostensible topic — Engwer’s Pauline Parody” — (judging by their title).
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1:38:45 Finally they get back to the actual topic, and show Suan Sonna talking about this item in Jason’s list:
1. Paul is the only apostle who is called God’s chosen vessel who will bear His name before Jews and Gentiles (Acts 9:15).
I easily answered this in my first reply:
The RSV reads “a chosen instrument of mine,” not “the chosen instrument . . . ” Nor is it even used as a title or name, like Rock (Petros) is. And it is not exclusive. Peter certainly did both as well.
1:39:42 Suan Sonna is shown giving an excellent counter-argument to #1 on Jason’s list. He brings up this verse:
Acts 15:7 (RSV) And after there had been much debate, Peter rose and said to them, “Brethren, you know that in the early days God made choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe.”
Suan goes on to develop the counter-argument:
So Peter’s also saying that he was distinctively chosen by God to bring the Gentiles to the Church . . . we can’t say that Paul only has this title when we see Peter claim a similar one for himself and with divine authorization claimed with it, . . . obviously that can’t be to the exclusion of Peter . . .
What is said about both Paul and Peter in the NT obviously can’t be an argument (again, satirical or not) for the primacy of one over the other. Therefore, Jason’s argument #1 fails in its purpose. It’s a wash.
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1:45:05 this is Jason’s whole tactic: just laid out to bear they cannot be consistent with their standards, they can’t! The only 
consistency they can have is the pope.
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My two replies and now this one, are the most thorough and direct responses to Jason’s satirical arguments. If my reasoning is so bad and able to be refuted, then why don’t these two guys critique those (and hopefully cease and desist from their constant rambling)?
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The video continues to ramble off-topic. It was very disappointing. I had hoped that a video lasting two hours and 18 minutes would seriously grapple with the topic they (supposedly) chose, but it wasn’t to be. Alas, this is very common with apologetics videos. Anyway, I made a few responses that may be helpful to one or two people out there . . .

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Photo credit: Christ Handing the Keys to St. Peter (c. 1482) by Pietro Perugino (1448-1523) [public domain / Wikimedia Commons]

Summary: I take on a video that discusses (amidst endless rambling) anti-Catholic Jason Engwer’s “Pauline Papacy” parodies: responses to an article of mine, over 20 years ago.

2024-04-30T09:48:57-04:00

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See the introduction in Part 1. James Swan’s word will be in blue.

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TABLE OF CONTENTS 

7. Luther’s Two Conceptions and the Confusion Created Therein

8. Scholarly Consensus on Luther and the Immaculate Conception

9. How Much Did the Immaculate Conception “Matter” to Martin Luther?

10. “Secondary” Doctrine and Luther’s Extraordinary “Prophetic” Infallibility

11. Misconceptions of My Argument & Footnoting & Documentation Controversies

12. Hartmann Grisar, Bias in Historiography, and the “BEST” Protestant Material

13. Swan Song: 12 More Errors and Miscomprehensions

 

7. Luther’s Two Conceptions and the Confusion Created Therein
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C. massa imperdita

. . . From Armstrong’s further comments, it’s hard to tell whether he even understands the issue.  What Armstrong overlooks from his 21st Century theological perspective is that this issue was debated during the centuries previous to Luther during the development of the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception, and is a factor in understanding Luther’s perspective.

I didn’t deny that the issue was debated, so these comments are yet another non sequitur. Rather,  I asserted that “the notion of a ‘pure strain through the centuries’ was never Catholic official teaching,” which is a far different proposition (“official” meaning dogmatic, conciliar, papal, magisterial teaching).

I’m not sure how Armstrong determined I engaged in heretical reasoning, since I have not put forth any of my own opinions on the Immaculate Conception.

Mr. Swan has done so publicly, elsewhere:

TertiumQuid Thu Jun-12-03 05:50 PM
#51318, “RE: Yes I do.”
In response to Reply #2. . . I actively teach that the immaculate conception is false. Just taught it this past Sunday to a group of about 30 adults.

CARM Catholic Discussion Board
(http://new.carmforums.org/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=107&topic_id=51307&mesg_id=51307&page=9&topic_page=1)

Just so the reader is clear where he stands (if it weren’t already obvious) . . . Arguably, this position might tend to create a bit of bias in Mr. Swan against Luther holding the view; hence perhaps this partially accounts for his opinion that Luther minimized it and then abandoned it. But his is not the only view — by any means — of scholars most acquainted with Luther’s Mariology. As a Catholic, on the other hand, what Luther believes on this or any other issue is not a direct concern of mine: he isn’t the founder of my branch of Christianity. Therefore, his views are merely interesting for historical discussion and speculation.

Mr. Swan cites Luther at length, and claims that:

. . . Luther uses this opportunity deny any notion that Mary was purified at her conception. Rather she was purified at the conception of Christ. These comments are from his Genesis Commentary, toward the end of his life in 1544:

. . . Christ was truly born from true and natural flesh and human blood which was corrupted by original sin in Adam, but in such a way that it could be healed. Thus we, who are encompassed by sinful flesh, believe and hope that on the day of our redemption the flesh will be purged of and separated from all infirmities, from death, and from disgrace; for sin and death are separable evils. Accordingly, when it came to the Virgin and that drop of virginal blood, what the angel said was fulfilled: “The Holy Spirit will come upon you and overshadow you”. To be sure, the Messiah was not born by the power of flesh and blood, as is stated in John 1:13: “Not of blood nor of the will of a man, etc.”? ? Nevertheless, He wanted to be born from the mass of the flesh and from that corrupted blood. But in the moment of the Virgin’s conception the Holy Spirit purged and sanctified the sinful mass and wiped out the poison of the devil and death, which is sin. Although death remained in that flesh on our account, the leaven of sin was nevertheless purged out, and it became the purest flesh, purified by the Holy Spirit and united with the divine nature in one Person. Therefore it is truly human nature no different from what it is in us. And Christ is the Son of Adam and of his seed and flesh, but, as has been stated, with the Holy Spirit overshadowing it, active in it, and purging it, in order that it might be fit for this most innocent conception and the pure and holy birth by which we were to be purged and freed from sin. Therefore these things are written for Christ’s sake. The Holy Spirit wanted Him to sink into sin as deeply as possible. Consequently, He had to be besmirched with incest and born from incestuous blood.[footnote 81: LW 7:13]

. . . Christ wanted his beginning to be like ours, but without sin, because he wanted to sanctify us wholly. We begin life in sin, we are conceived in sin, born in sin, no matter whether we be emperor, king, prince, rich, or poor; every human being is conceived in sin according to Psalm 51:5. Only Christ has the distinction and the honor to have been conceived by the Holy Ghost’s power. Since from our conception we are sinful, we are people whose flesh and blood and everything about us are soiled by sin, as indeed we see in ourselves; or when we look at those around us in the world, beset by evil desire, pride, multiple devils, and miserable unbelief. Thus we are conceived and born. For all of mankind is conceived and born in accord with creation’s decree, as recorded (Gen. 1:28): “Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth.” Christ could not be subject to such impure sinful conception and birth. He, indeed, was a genuinely true, natural human being, but not conceived or born in sin as all other descendants of Adam. That is why his mother had to be a virgin whom no man had touched, so that he would not be born under the curse, but rather conceived and born without sin, so that the devil had no right or power over him. Only the Holy Spirit was present to bring about the conception in her virgin body. Mother Mary, like us, was born in sin of sinful parents, but the Holy Spirit covered her, sanctified and purified her so that this child was born of flesh and blood, but not with sinful flesh and blood. The Holy Spirit permitted the Virgin Mary to remain a true, natural human being of flesh and blood, just as we. However, he warded off sin from her flesh and blood so that she became the mother of a pure child, not poisoned by sin as we are.[footnote 82: Martin Luther, Sermons of Martin Luther, Vol. 3, ed. John Nicholas Lenker. ( Grand Rapids: Baker Books, 1996), 291]

Mr. Swan apparently thinks this is some sort of knockout punch to my assertion (in agreement with many Protestant scholars) that Luther held to some form of the Immaculate Conception his entire life. But he neglects to see that I have already answered this sort of reasoning. It seems that I have to so often cite my words and those I have quoted at least twice before Mr. Swan will realize what, in fact, I have argued (emphases added this time):

William J. Cole, in his influential article, “Was Luther a Marian Devotee?”, picks up an important and relevant point . . .: one plausible theory about the interpretation of Luther’s seemingly contradictory remarks about the Immaculate Conception (pp. 121-123):

The objections brought up against Luther’s retention of belief in the Immaculate Conception can usually be solved by the distinction he repeated so many times between the active and passive conceptions on the one hand and the inchoative and perfect passive conception on the other. The active conception, i.e., the generative act on the part of the parents, to which corresponded the beginning or inchoative passive conception on the part of the offspring, interested Luther only inasmuch as he thought along with Augustine that it is by this means that original sin is transmitted. For him this is only the physical conception, i.e., of the body before the animation or the infusion of the soul. Although for moderns, it is difficult even to speak of the body’s being the subject of sin apart from the soul, Luther apparently saw no difficulty in attributing original sin to Mary, but not to Christ, in this sense. [cf. WA 4, 693; 10 (3), 331; 46, 136; 47, 860] But with regard to the infusion of the soul in the perfect passive conception, in which the person comes into being, Luther would not admit any original sin in Mary.

Further down, Mr. Swan acknowledges that Cole’s research is worthwhile, in the context of discussing:

. . . the necessary distinctions between the 1854 dogma, and other types of views. Quite frankly, the only studies that Armstrong utilized that were worthy of discussing this topic were O’Meara’s and Cole’s.

But I also cited Lutheran scholar Eric W. Gritsch:

Luther . . . regarded her Immaculate Conception as “a pious and pleasing thought” that should not, however, be imposed on the faithful. (in The One Mediator, the Saints, and Mary, Lutherans and Catholics in Dialogue VIII, edited by H. George Anderson, J. Francis Stafford, Joseph A. Burgess, Minneapolis: Augsburg Fortress Press, 1992, p. 241)[footnote 43; p. 382: “‘Haec pia cogitatio et placet.’ Exposition of the Ninth Chapter of Isaiah, 1543/44. WA 40/3:680.31-32. Two scholars doubt whether Luther affirmed the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception of Mary: Preuss (n. 11 above came to the conclusion that Luther rejected the doctrine after 1528; O’Meara states that “it is likely, but not certain” that Luther rejected the doctrine (118 [n. 11 above]). But Tappolet (32 [n. 1 above]) demonstrated with the use of texts that Luther did not change his mind. The literary evidence from Luther’s works clearly supports the view that Luther affirmed the doctrine, but did not consider it necessary to impose it.”]

Other similar examples can be consulted in my previous paper. Why repeat everything?

One can see from the context, Armstrong is mistaken.

One can see, by presenting my citations from both Catholic and Lutheran scholars — now for the second time –, that Mr. Swan’s view is contrary not only to my opinion, but (much more importantly) to theirs.

A careful reading will not support an 1854 version of the Immaculate Conception, thus Luther did not hold a lifelong commitment to the Roman Catholic dogma of the Immaculate Conception.

Of course, I did not assert that (if Mr. Swan or any reader mistakenly thinks I did). I asserted that he held to some form of it, and that some scholars (i.e., Schimmelpfennig, a Catholic, and Algermissen and Heiler, Lutherans) believe he held to the Immaculate Conception as described in the 1854 Catholic dogma throughout his entire life.

Nor will this quote support any concept of the Immaculate Conception in which Mary was purified at her conception. One will note from the quote above, Mary’s conception is never mentioned.

It’s true that Mary’s conception is not mentioned. But on the other hand, because Mr. Swan does not seem to understand Luther’s view of the two conceptions (one of body and blood; the other of the soul), he sees contradictions here where there probably are none (though with Luther, certainly contradiction is always a distinct possibility).

At one point Armstrong offers his own commentary and quote to substantiate Luther’s lifelong commitment to the Roman Catholic dogma of the Immaculate Conception:

Again, Mr. Swan is claiming that I asserted something which I never asserted or argued. Quite the contrary:

His views of Mary as Mother of God and as ever-Virgin were identical to those in Catholicism, and his opinions on the Immaculate Conception, Mary’s “Spiritual Motherhood” and the use of the “Hail Mary” were substantially the same.I have not discovered a single scholar who treats this subject who denies that the early Luther believed in the Immaculate Conception in some form.

Mr. Swan criticizes my citation of Luther’s Mariological statement, from Against the Roman Papacy: An Institution of the Devil, (1545):

It is obvious from the context that Luther’s statement on Mary is highly rhetorical and sarcastic . . . Using this reference to substantiate Luther’s lifelong commitment to the Roman Catholic dogma of the Immaculate Conception is quite a stretch.

Note again the false portrayal of what I was arguing . . .

Mr. Armstrong needs to pay closer attention to context. Simply looking for a phrase that seems to say what he wants to prove is not cogent argumentation.

The only problem is that William Cole draws the same conclusion, citing this passage. Cole wrote one of the most extensive and widely-cited articles about Luther’s Mariology, and even Mr. Swan speaks highly of him:

O’Meara’s brief study is one of the better historical inquiries of Luther’s Mariology from a Roman Catholic perspective, if only because of expanded content (usually missing from any examination of this issue, Cole excluded).

So if I am to be severely criticized for using this quote, all I am asking is that Mr. Swan also go after the scholar from whom I discovered this particular argument. I agree that the source is probably the weakest one I provided for my argument, but I am not convinced that it loses all force whatsoever because it occurs in a sarcastic context.

8. Scholarly Consensus on Luther and the Immaculate Conception
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The primary argument that Mr. Armstrong utilizes to prove Luther’s lifelong commitment to the Immaculate Conception is scholarly consensus . . . The primary error with Armstrong’s list is that he doesn’t distinguish between all those scholars who deny Luther held to an 1854 dogma of the Immaculate Conception from [sic] those who do. Hilda Graef, Walter Tappolet, and Max Thurian deny Luther held a lifelong commitment to the 1854 dogma of the Immaculate Conception.
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This (overall paragraph) is untrue, and obviously so, as I made the following summary (note the last three: the only scholars whom I claimed believed that Luther held to the 1854 dogma):

I shall list the scholars from least convinced about the later Luther to most convinced: even to the point where it is thought his view was identical to that of the Catholic dogma proclaimed ex cathedra in 1854:

1.  Hartmann Grisar (Catholic): Luther rejected the Immaculate Conception after 1528 or so.
2.  Horst-Dietrich Preuss (Lutheran): Luther rejected the Immaculate Conception after 1528 or so.
3.  Thomas A. O’Meara (C): later rejection “likely, but not certain.”
4.  Hilda Graef (C): probably accepted, but in somewhat diluted form.
5.  Arthur Carl Piepkorn (L): “life-long” accceptance “(barring two lapses).”
6.  Walter Tappolet (C): accepted (yes).
7.  Max Thurian (Reformed): yes.
8.  William J. Cole (C): yes.
9.  Eric W. Gritsch (L): yes.
10. Jaroslav Pelikan (L): yes.
11. Richard Marius (probably Protestant of some sort): yes.
12. 10 Catholic scholars on the Lutheran-Catholic Dialogue Committee (C): yes.
13. 11 Lutheran scholars on the Lutheran-Catholic Dialogue Committee (L): yes.
14. Reintraud Schimmelpfennig (C): yes, in the same sense as the infallible Catholic dogma proclaimed in 1854.
15. K. Algermissen (L): yes, in the same sense as the infallible Catholic dogma proclaimed in 1854.
16. Friedrich Heiler (L): yes, in the same sense as the infallible Catholic dogma proclaimed in 1854.

Jaroslav Pelikan never gave his opinion in the works Armstrong cited.

This is a false statement as well, as I documented:

A few pages later, Gritsch notes about recent Lutheran opinion on the Immaculate Conception and Luther’s espousal of it:

Jaroslav Pelikan and Arthur Carl Piepkorn may well represent the reaction of contemporary ecumenically committed Lutherans toward this dogma. Pelikan viewed the dogma as the completion of “the chain of reasoning begun by the surmise that the sinlessness of Jesus . . . depends upon His being free of the taint that comes from having two parents. Now Mary may conceive immaculately because she herself has been conceived immaculately.”

[footnote 77; p. 384: “The Riddle of Roman Catholicism (New York and Nashville: Abington, 1959), 131-21.”]

([in The One Mediator, the Saints, and Mary, Lutherans and Catholics in Dialogue VIII, edited by H. George Anderson, J. Francis Stafford, Joseph A. Burgess, Minneapolis: Augsburg Fortress Press, 1992], p. 246)

Arthur Piepkorn says that he “seems” to have held to a lifelong belief in the Immaculate Conception, but does not specify what that means. Richard Marius uses similar vague language to Piepkorn, and likewise gives no analysis at how he arrived at his conclusion. “Seems” is not a definite way of speaking, and its no wonder neither of these men provide analysis of the topic.

I see, so we must, then, accept Mr. Swan’s word on this question over against one of the most prominent Lutheran scholars and translators of Luther’s works, and a recent major Luther biographer? Very interesting . . . “Seems” is a scholarly way of speaking, free from the excessive, insufficiently-proven dogmatisms of Mr. Swan’s way of expressing himself. As for a lack of “analysis,” I only note that Mr. Swan has passed over the analysis of Luther’s notion of two conceptions, which is crucial to the topic and in understanding Luther’s view. Perhaps he does treat that aspect below [he did not, I later discovered], but if so, he has inexcusably neglected to mention it in the context where it was extremely relevant.

Reintraud Schimmelpfennig study is said to be in error by Tappolet and Graef.

Scholars disagree with each other! Another astounding revelation from Mr. Swan . . .

No analysis is provided of the only positions that should matter to Armstrong, those of Friedrich Heiler and K. Algermissen. How did they arrive at Luther holding to the 1854 dogma? Which texts did they use?

Later, Mr. Swan wrote:

He cites three scholars whom he is certain believe Luther held to the 1854 dogma . . . Unfortunately, Armstrong offers no substantiation or discussion from these authors. This would have been pertinent information.

If I had that information, I would have provided it. I think most people would find it interesting that two Lutheran scholars (as well as one Catholic scholar) came to this position.

Interestingly, these two scholars are the definite minority view, and the view which should be most important to Armstrong.

I was not trying to prove the dogma itself; I was only doing a study of what scholars believed Luther held with regard to the dogma. Thus it is completely irrelevant to make statements about what should be “most important” to me in a purely historical study. I guess this statement flows from Mr. Swan’s previous misunderstanding, whereby he thought I was attempting to prove that Luther held to the 1854 dogma.

Almost laughable were these scholars put forth by Armstrong: “10 Catholic scholars on the Lutheran-Catholic Dialogue Committee… 11 Lutheran scholars on the Lutheran-Catholic Dialogue Committee (L): yes.”

I fail to see the humor. It is certainly relevant (and, I think, fascinating and noteworthy) if an impressive  panel of scholars, in the process of a major ecumenical undertaking, agree that “Luther himself professed the Immaculate Conception as a pleasing thought though not as an article of faith.”

No analysis was provided by twenty of these men,

Probably because they produced a creedal statement, and individual opinions from all the participants were not included in the book. Perhaps Mr. Swan expects me to contact all by phone and conduct lengthy interviews, so that my paper will not be so “laughable”? If anything is “laughable,” it is that Mr. Swan cited the same group himself, in a public post on a Protestant discussion board:

TertiumQuid Sat Jun-28-03 06:27 AM
#55787, “Christ the Judge and Mary the Merciful”
Edited on Sat Jun-28-03 06:28 AM by TertiumQuidDuring the Middle Ages Christ was viewed as Judge, while Mary was seen as a great merciful protector, in some instances “deified.” Luther for instance, dreaded Christ the severe judge . . .

The Lutheran and Catholics in Dialogue scholars noted that,

“Luther was convinced that the practice of invoking the saints only continued the medieval tendency to transform Christ the “kindly Mediator” into a “dreaded Judge” who is to be placated by the intercession of the saints and Mary, and by a multitude of other rites.” Lutherans and Catholics in Dialogue VII, 25.

CARM
(http://new.carmforums.org/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=107&topic_id=55787&mesg_id=55787&page=)

Note that (just as in my quote), “no analysis was provided” by the panel. The only difference is that in the first instance they agreed with my position, and in the second they agreed with Mr. Swan’s position. When the latter occurs, they are used by Mr. Swan for his polemical purposes. When the former occurs, however, the same group of men and their scholarly opinions somehow devolve into the spectre of being “laughable.” Perhaps Mr. Swan can explain how his reasoning works in making such bogus distinctions?

Note Gritsch never affirms Luther held to the 1854 dogma.

As I noted this in my own paper, it is no news to me. But he does affirm that Luther held to the Immaculate Conception in some form his entire life (my own position), and this differs from Mr. Swan’s position. Again, in such matters, I defer to the eminent Lutheran scholar and translator of Luther’s works, not a seminary student with a polemical interest.

Some form? It is obvious these scholars understand Luther is not ascribing to the 1854 dogma.

Indeed it is. Then why mention it?

George Yule denies Luther held the Immaculate Conception.
Ian Siggins denies Luther held the Immaculate Conception.
Ewald Plass denies Luther held the Immaculate Conception.
Anna Paulson denies Luther held the Immaculate Conception.
George Merz denies Luther held to the Immaculate Conception.
Reinhold Seeberg denies Luther held to the Immaculate Conception.

Assuming these scholars take a position similar to that of Grisar, Preuss, and O’Meara, then that would make the new grand total: 31 affirmative, 8 negative. I think scholarly consensus is relevant to any discussion. And it is relevant even before specific argumentation is presented, simply by virtue of the fact that they are scholars, who can be presumed to have done their research. Not all statements are arguments.

This is simply a ridiculous way to approach this issue without providing the necessary distinctions between the 1854 dogma, and other types of views.

Since I did indeed provide that necessary distinction, I submit that Mr. Swan’s modus operandi is the one arguably “ridiculous” here. Straw men always are . . .

9. How Much Did the Immaculate Conception “Matter” to Martin Luther?
*
It is obvious that the Immaculate Conception is important to Armstrong.
*

Indeed it is, but not simply on the grounds that I write about it a lot. Mr. Swan also writes about it quite a bit, but it is not important to him, because he doesn’t believe it. I write more about sola Scriptura than anything else, as a Catholic apologist. It is important to me only as something to refute. But in historical discussions, history itself (or how the facts of it can best be ascertained) is what is important. These two papers are historical studies — no more, no less.

It is also obvious that Luther engaged the topic so infrequently that one can only conclude he was not overly concerned with it.

It is not so obvious to scholars who have studied Luther’s views. If he dealt with it once, that would be one time more than virtually all Protestant pastors today deal with it.

1518:
“Second, even if the pope along with a large part of the church should feel thus and so, and even if it were true that he does not err, it is still not a sin, nor is it heresy, to take the opposite position, especially in something which is not necessary for salvation, until the one position has been rejected by a general council and the other approved. But, lest I become too involved, let me state that my position is proved in this one instance, namely, that the Roman church along with the general council at Basel and almost with the whole church feels that the Holy Virgin was conceived without sin. Yet those who hold the opposite opinion should not be considered heretics, since their opinion has not been disproved.”(LW 31:172-173)

This doesn’t prove that the Immaculate Conception did not “matter” much to Luther, as Mr. Swan states. What it proves is that he thought it shouldn’t be a dogma, and that those with contrary opinions should not be considered heretics. Would that the Calvinist Synod of Dort had been so tolerant toward the Arminian Remonstrants . . . Catholics obviously think it should be a dogma. But the fact that Luther did not (which I have also noted more than once previously), doesn’t prove that Luther considered the doctrine unimportant. That would be as foolish as arguing that the Catholic Church didn’t consider Mary’s Assumption important till 1950, when it was defined at the highest level of authority (the same would apply to the Immaculate Conception before 1854 and papal infallibility before 1870).

1521:
“In regard to the conception of our Lady they have admitted that, since this article is not necessary to salvation, it is neither heresy nor error when some hold that she was conceived in sin, although in this case council, pope, and the majority hold a different view.? Why should we poor Christians be forced to believe whatever the pope and his papists think, even when it is not necessary to salvation? Has papal authority the power to make unnecessary matters necessary articles of faith, and can it make heretics of people in matters which are not necessary for salvation?”(LW 32:79-80)

The same argument I made in my last statement applies here.

10. “Secondary” Doctrine and Luther’s Extraordinary “Prophetic” Infallibility
*
Without getting into a huge, multi-faceted discussion about infallibility, authority, sola Scriptura, Tradition, the proper, reasonable extent of binding dogma, etc., I would simply throw Luther’s principle back upon himself.  He moans: “Why should we poor Christians be forced to believe whatever the pope and his papists think, even when it is not necessary to salvation?” Very well, then: why should we poor non-Protestant Christians “be forced to believe” whatever Luther and his Lutherans believe? Here are a few examples:

If your Papist makes much unnecessary fuss about the word (Sola, alone), say straight out to him, Dr. Martin Luther will have it so, and says, Papists and donkeys     are one and the same thing. Thus I will have it, thus I order it, my will is reason enough . . . Dr. Luther will have it so, and . . . he is a Doctor above all Doctors in the   whole of Popery. (in Henry O’Connor, Luther’s Own Statements, New York: Benziger Bros., 3rd ed., 1884, 25; Letter to Wenceslaus Link, 1530)I am certain that I have my teaching from heaven. (in O’Connor, ibid., 19; Against Henry VIII, King of England, 1522)

Whoever teaches differently from what I have taught herein, or condemns me for it, he condemns God, and must be a child of Hell. (in O’Connor, ibid., 15; Against Henry VIII, King of England, 1522)

. . . from now on I shall no longer do you the honor of allowing you—or even an angel from heaven—to judge my teaching or to examine it. (Against the Spiritual Estate of the Pope and the Bishops Falsely So-Called, July 1522. Martin Luther, Luther’s Works, edited by Jaroslav Pelikan [volumes 1-30] and Helmut T. Lehmann [volumes 31-55], St. Louis: Concordia Pub. House [volumes 1-30]; Philadelphia: Fortress Press [volumes 31-55], 1955.  This work from Volume 39: Church and Ministry I (edited by J. Pelikan, H. C. Oswald, and H. T. Lehmann); pages 239-299; translated by Eric W. and Ruth C. Gritsch; this quote from p. 248)

I shall not have it judged by any man, not even by any angel. For since I am certain of it, I shall be your judge and even the angels’ judge through this teaching (as St. Paul says  [I Cor. 6:3 ]) so that whoever does not accept my teaching may not be saved — for it is God’s and not mine. Therefore, my judgment is also not mine but God’s. (Ibid., p. 249)

For much, much more material along these lines, see: Martin Luther the “Super-Pope” (?) and de facto Infallibility (?): With Extensive Documentation From Luther’s Own Words [11-13-02; rev. 5-15-03 and 6-18-06]

Luther himself admits that “the Roman church along with the general council at Basel and almost with the whole church feels that the Holy Virgin was conceived without sin.” Despite that, he would like this belief to not be binding on the faithful, and desired that dissenters should not be called “heretics.” How, then, does his rhetoric above fit into this scenario? It’s okay to not believe in the Immaculate Conception, even though Luther accepts it and the “majority” and “almost the whole Church” does too, yet anyone who disagrees with Luther (alas, even an “angel from heaven”) or dares to even “examine” his teaching, is a “child of hell” who “condemns God” simply because Luther is a self-proclaimed, self-anointed “Doctor above all Doctors”, whose judgment and doctrine is, in fact “God’s”? This is very curious reasoning. But Luther was never accused of being logically consistent.

Who is being overly dogmatic here? Luther condemned, for example, fellow “reformer” Zwingli, because he didn’t accept the Real Presence in the Eucharist. He thought Zwingli was “damned” and “out of the Church” (because, as we know, all Luther’s teaching was straight from God and thus obviously super-infallible in a fashion far beyond any papal proclamation ever was). So according to Luther, Mr. Swan himself must be damned, since if he held to Calvin’s “mystical presence” view of the Eucharist, he would (like Zwingli) be at odds with Luther. But I would not be damned in Luther’s eyes for believing in the Immaculate Conception. I certainly would be on other grounds, though, because I am outrageously arrogant enough to not believe that Luther is a super-infallible super-pope and super-prophet or a Doctor above all Doctors”.

Mr. Swan’s master, John Calvin took a few shots at Luther:

What to think of Luther I know not . . . with his firmness there is mixed up a good deal of obstinacy . . . Nothing can be safe as long as that rage for contention shall agitate us . . . Luther . . . will never be able to join along with us in . . . the pure truth of God. For he has sinned against it not only from vainglory . . . but also from ignorance and the grossest extravagance. For what absurdities he pawned upon us . . . when he said the bread is the very body! . . . a very foul error. What can I say of the partisans of that cause? Do they not romance more wildly than Marcion respecting the body of Christ? . . . Wherefore if you have an influence or authority over Martin, use it . . . that he himself submit to the truth which he is now manifestly attacking . . . Contrive that Luther . . . cease to bear himself so    imperiously. (in John Dillenberger, editor, John Calvin: Selections From His Writings, Garden City, New York: Doubleday Anchor, 1971, 46-48; from Letter to Martin Bucer, January 12, 1538)

I am carefully on the watch that Lutheranism gain no ground, nor be introduced into France. The best means . . . for checking the evil would be that the confession written by me . . . should be published. (Dillenberger, ibid., 76; from Letter to Heinrich Bullinger, July 2, 1563)

We readily see how far Protestantism has advanced in unity since those heady days! Where now all are marvelously united and doctrinal latitudinarianism largely prevails, in the beginning Calvin could call Luther an enemy of “the pure truth of God” possessed of ignorance and the grossest extravagance, and Lutheranism “evil.”

It is refreshing, at least (in one sense), to see that the earliest Protestants were consistently anti-[other]Protestant[s] as well as anti-Catholic. See: Protestant Inquisitions: “Reformation” Intolerance & Persecution [June 1991; rev. 10-31-03, 3-7-07, 9-14-17], for numerous examples of this sort of intolerance and hypocrisy; strange from men who rail loudly against Catholic “dogmatism” and excessive binding of men’s consciences, and who ostensibly, supposedly champion the freedom of the individual and private judgment.

11. Misconceptions of My Argument and Footnoting and Documentation Controversies
*
Armstrong seems to realize that it’s highly probable that Luther did not hold to a position similar to the 1854 dogma,
*

Now Mr. Swan finally “gets” it, but in doing so, contradicts his earlier assessment of my beliefs in this regard (e.g., “Using this reference to substantiate Luther’s lifelong commitment to the Roman Catholic dogma of the Immaculate Conception is quite a stretch”).

He’s content that Luther held to some form of the Immaculate Conception; the fact that it doesn’t take the form of the 1854 dogma does not seem to be a concern.

Why would it be, in a purely historical discussion (whose aim is simply to determine the facts of history)? That no more concerns me than does the historical fact that St. Thomas Aquinas also took a different view than the 1854 definition of the dogma. But Mr. Swan seems quite hung up on this. Perhaps that is because he is finding it difficult to successfully refute the facts and arguments I have presented?

It’s fairly obvious from my citations above that Luther moved further away from a doctrine similar to that put forth in 1854.

It’s not quite so obvious to many Catholic and Lutheran scholars. I give their opinions much more credence than Mr. Swan’s (no offense). The supposed change in Luther’s opinion has been explained, now twice (but ignored by Mr. Swan in his latest paper), in terms of Luther’s notions of two distinct conceptions for every person.

What Armstrong ends up doing is presenting that either Luther held to some form of the Immaculate Conception, or the 1854 dogma his entire life.

I did the former (and I didn’t “end up” with this position; I have held it for approximately 12 years now). Mr. Swan needs to learn the distinction between one’s own views and a presentation of the views of others — in this case, those of scholars (the “survey” or overview of the literature” approach). I will simply refer readers to the most relevant section of my previous paper (rather than repeating arguments endlessly because Mr. Swan oddly refuses to deal with them in his huge paper):

*

VIII. The Use of Footnotes in My Paper and Mr. Armstrong’s Response

The form of my footnotes annoyed Mr. Armstrong.

Not quite. Rather, it was the double standard employed by Mr. Swan in his criticism of my use of footnotes (after one looked at how he often used his).

If any will take the time to look over my footnotes, one will see that the majority are references to the English edition of Luther’s Works.

That’s fine. I was simply asking that he give the name of the source cited (“Sermon on Christmas, 1534,” etc.).

Indeed, it is expected that anyone wishing to study Luther should have Luther’s Works. These volumes are readily available.

I can hardly afford a 55-volume set (even used — but I have never seen it used), as I am a relatively poor apologist with a wife and four children to feed. I would love to have this set. Perhaps Mr. Swan would consider a donation to my ministry, since we are both very interested in Martin Luther? Meanwhile, I have to drive ten miles to a library to consult it. I’ve dealt with most of Mr. Swan’s objections concerning footnoting already, and the discussion is tedious for readers, but I will offer a few more comments:

Mr. Armstrong though takes a different approach in his Luther research. In version #3 of his response he references the German Weimar edition 33 times (he cites the English Luther’s Works only 4 times).

I cite whatever source my scholarly source cites, in the desire for thorough documentation in my research. Paul Althaus, in his standard work, The Theology of Martin Luther (translated by Robert C. Schultz, Philadelphia: Fortress Press, 1966) usually cites the Weimar edition (WA). One would expect this, since he originally wrote in German. LW [“Luther’s Works“] (the English set) is also often cited (perhaps added by the translator), but oftentimes, only the reference to WA is listed.

Does that mean that all these references are somehow suspect or inadequately documented because they don’t refer to LW? Or that we shouldn’t cite them till we can get a solid English reference? I understand that WA is much larger than LW, so citing the former without the latter will often be necessary. My point is that there is nothing intrinsically wrong with, or suspect (in terms of scholarly competence), in doing this. This work is an English translation, after all, yet doesn’t always give a reference to an English edition of Luther’s writing.

I ask any to compare my footnotes with any of Mr. Armstrong’s Luther pages. As an example, please see Mr. Armstrong’s footnotes for his on-line Paper “Martin Luther: Beyond Historical Myth to Fact.” Primary references to Luther are mostly to Luther’s Works in German.

Again, I simply gave the references as I had them. If Mr. Swan wants to claim that the scholars are not to be trusted, that is another issue. Mr. Swan acts as if this is some terrible thing, when, in fact, it is quite common. I shall illustrate by citing the examples of just five works I have in my library, all written or edited by non-Catholic scholars:

1. Here I Stand, by Roland Bainton (New York: Mentor, 1950): probably the most well-known and widely-read biography of Luther, gives no less than 27 references (which he uses often) on page 315: most in German, some in Latin, none in English. He refers to WA dozens of times, if not well over a hundred times. Granted, the 55-volume English set was not yet available, but there was at least a smaller set (Philadelphia: Holman, 1930 ff., six volumes — I have four volumes in my library) to which he does not seem to ever refer.

2. Luther’s Progress to the Diet of Worms, by Gordon Rupp (London: S.C.M. Press, 1951), another famous book, likewise routinely cites the WA (at least 59 times in just the first two chapters: pages 9-35), as well as numerous German and French works. What is interesting is that he also lists the Philadelphia edition of Luther’s works in English in his “Abbreviations,” yet does not cite it nearly as often as WA. I didn’t notice it in the first two chapters. He does cite it more later on, but less than WA, which is the point. And the Harper Torchbook edition was from 1964, so the references to the 1955 LW could have easily been added on. Mr. Swan cites Rupp’s negative opinion of Hartmann Grisar.

3. Young Man Luther, by Erik Erikson (New York: W.W. Norton & Co., 1958), another famous work, uses exclusively German editions of Luther’s works and not the English editions, even though the 55-volume set was then published.

4. Likewise: Luther: Early Theological Works, edited and translated by James Atkinson (Philadelphia: Westminster Press, 1962). The author writes on page 365: “All references to the Luther text are made to the Weimar text, volume, page, line, and where significant to the title and date of the work cited.” Mr. Swan cites Atkinson’s negative opinion of Hartmann Grisar.

5. Alister E. McGrath, Luther’s Theology of the Cross (Grand Rapids, MI: Baker Books, 1985): we find exclusive reference to the German Weimar edition (WA). The English edition is not used at all.

Once again, then, we see that Mr. Swan’s criticisms fall flat, as I was doing nothing other than what a great many Luther scholars (in fact, arguably the very best) do.  No one is obliged to always cite the English versions. If they were, then the six works cited above are immediately suspect. If they are not suspect, then neither is my work (i.e., simply on this basis — I am not a scholar, and am not trying to imply that I am).

Readers can immediately see that such a “requirement” is entirely absurd, for it would mean that if any of the prominent books above were cited, along with the German primary reference given, that this would be somehow methodologically-deficient simply by virtue of that fact.  Since this can hardly be the case, Mr. Swan’s objection collapses. The English edition was also “readily available” to scholars like McGrath and Atkinson, yet they chose not to use it. And I take it that they could afford it if they wanted a copy (unlike myself).

Similarly, A large amount of Mr. Armstrong’s Luther references are given merely as titles of a particular treatise, with the readers’ job being the arduous task of tracking down a volume that contains said treatise.

On the other hand, Mr. Swan habitually cites the primary source (LW) but not the name of the tract or book or sermon (which might then be able to be located in other collections of Luther’s writings that one might have — I possess approximately 26 books by or about Luther and many more about the Protestant Reformation in general). That was my complaint. It was not a major aspect of my paper at all; it was simply a response to his complaint about my own methods in documentation.

Either Mr. Armstrong is fluent in German or Mr. Armstrong does not have the most basic tool for Luther studies: the English edition of Luther’s Works, so he relies on secondary sources . . .

It is true that Mr. Armstrong does not know German (nor does he wish to). It is also true that Mr. Armstrong (being a devoted, less-than-rich apologist and writer) does not possess Pelikan’s Luther’s Works, and that Mr. Armstrong often relies on secondary sources. It is also true that people like Dr. McGrath probably know German and do have the set; however, the bulk of Dr. McGrath’s English readers do not know German, so it remains for Mr. Swan to explain why Dr. McGrath does not utilize the English set at all; he doesn’t even cross-reference it to the German set, as, for example, the Althaus English translation often does. Thus, Dr. McGrath (like the hapless Mr. Armstrong) — to use Mr. Swan’s words — “complicates the task of any [non-German readers] who would check his references or contexts.” Thus Mr. Swan ought to criticize Dr. McGrath (and others like him) for the same “shortcoming.” But we are not surprised to see that he does not.

For my part, I’m much more interested in the beliefs of Luther than in this sort of “majoring on the minors” nitpicking nonsense, but so it often goes in Catholic-Protestant discussions (unfortunately). It’s not my choice.

Mr. Armstrong’s response provided many references that are virtually impossible to track down. One wonders why these sources were offered.

Because scholars offered them, and one purpose of scholars is to inform their readers of subjects, with documentation. If I hadn’t offered the further documentation, we can be sure that Mr. Swan would have vigorously criticized “Mr. Armstrong’s appalling lack of necessary documentation (!!!!!).”

Mr. Swan then curiously includes in his examples of “difficult” sources:

“Was Luther a Devotee of Mary?” Marian Studies, 21, 1970; Marian Studies 18 (1967)

This is the article by William Cole, which Mr. Swan cites several times, and even commends, so I find it fascinating that it is now being criticized as “impossible to track down” (I found it in the same theological library where I could also consult Luther’s Works in English), and Mr. Swan wonders “why” the source was offered. Well, it was obviously offered because it is one of the major pieces on Luther’s Mariology! I should think that would be more than sufficient reason and justification to cite it, regardless of how “difficult” it might be to track down.

In contrast, I have made the readers’ task of locating a context for Luther’s words quite easy; all you need is access to Luther’s Works, which are available in many college libraries, and some public libraries. Used volumes can still be purchased, even singularly (individual volumes can be as cheap as $15-25).

I see. Even at the lowest price, the set comes in at $825. Perhaps Mr. Swan grew up in (and lives in) considerably more affluence than I did (and do). For most non-upper class persons, paying that much for a set of books is not that easy of a task. I appreciate all the references; all I’m saying is that they are not necessary, and that one would prefer that the sermons and tracts were identified with something beyond “LW xx:xxx.”

Mr. Swan then recounts the “Luther quote” controversy that I described above. It seems to be his desire to try to “embarrass” me by showing how shoddy my research is:

In his first response to my paper, Armstrong said he had done the search and found English references: “Luther’s works, ed. Jaroslav Pelikan, volume 4, 694.” He seemed fairly confident he had succeeded in proving my total incompetence. Not only was he able to find Catholic sites providing a reference, he found those references to be for the English edition of Luther’s Works.

This of course proved to be a bogus reference. Volume 4 does not have a page 694 . . . Perhaps if Mr. Armstrong had Luther’s Works to check his research, this embarrassment could have been avoided.

Towards this end, we find the following exchange on a board filled with anti-Catholics:

Re: Luther on Mary  Tertiumquidd. . . I made mention of checking the versions of Luther’s Works to not further embarrass Mr. Armstrong who posted a non-existent reference as a response to my paper. I know the English version has a uniformity to it.

. . . It is amazing to me how little Luther discussed the Immaculate Conception, and how big of a deal certain RC apologists make out of one Luther quote they can’t produce a context for, nor is the date “1527” even certain.

Edited by: Tertiumquidd at: 5/2/03 4:48:14 pm

Areopagus Board
(http://pub84.ezboard.com/fntrmindiscussionboardfrm9.showMessage?topicID=186.topic&index=1)

As I recall, Mr. Swan was challenging me to find a primary reference source for the 1527 sermon on the Immaculate Conception (which Catholic historian and Luther biographer Hartmann Grisar cited). I found two on the Internet which listed a volume and page number in the English edition. It turns out that the volume and page number were incorrectly listed from one of the German editions and wrongly attributed to the English edition. I noticed this later in my research — that the reference lined up with a German citation. Mr. Swan has since made much of this, along with the fact that I revised my paper, as if this were some extraordinary or scandalous thing. But I see it as a simple human error. My mistake was in passing on the mistaken information.

The ironic and somewhat humorous part of all this, however, is Mr. Swan’s second paragraph above, where he suggested that even the date of this sermon was not “certain” (because he could not find it in the English edition of Luther’s Works — it is only in the German Weimar edition [WA, 17, II, 287-289]; and in other German collections as well, such as the Erlangen set). So he commits an error at least as (if not more) serious as the botching of the source (from a German edition rather than the English). Of course it is indeed from 1527, as I have since verified, under Mr. Swan’s challenge and failed attempt to “embarrass” me:

Thomas A. O’Meara (whose research Mr. Swan has commended), wrote:

In 1527 Luther preached a long sermon on the conception of Mary.

Lutheran Eric Gritsch concurs:

Sermon on the Feast of the Immaculate Conception (December 8?) 1527 . . . In 1527 Luther dealt with the Immaculate Conception of Mary, . . .

William J. Cole also mentions it:

Festpostille — two 1527 editions, WA 17 (2), 287-289.

As does Hilda Graef, without the date:

He still believes in the Immaculate Conception in the full Catholic sense, saying that “one believes blessedly that at the very infusion of her soul she was also purified from original sin.[WA, 17-II, 288 in her footnote]

Undaunted (all of the above was in my last paper), Mr. Swan blithely asserts:

While doing my research, I contacted the Webmaster from Project Wittenberg (a highly respected web site on Luther) who informed me that the date for this sermon was not certain. He informed me that this sermon was more likely from 1517; hence Luther’s devotion to Mary would be more intact than it was later in his career.

So again, scholars’ statements count for little or nothing, since they are ignored by Mr. Swan. It is sufficient for him to rely on an undocumented suggestion (we aren’t given any documentation, if the Wittenberg webmaster provided any) of the date 1517. I suggest that in the future Mr. Swan might want to consider avoiding trying to “embarrass” or “trap” Catholic apologists simply because friends of his (who post his papers on their website) think said apologists do “extremely poor research.” Sometimes such missions fail miserably and backfire. And if this is attempted publicly, the potentially “embarrassing” refutation will also be done publicly. I’m not embarrassed at all by a simple mistake that I made. But Mr. Swan ought to be quite embarrassed by his petty exploitation of the incident.

12. Hartmann Grisar, Bias in Historiography, and the “BEST” Protestant Material
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Mr. Swan then launches into a lengthy critique of the bias of Jesuit Church historian and Luther biographer Hartmann Grisar. I need not spend any time on that (nor did he need to) since I have always agreed that all scholars (especially in religious or socio-political matters) have a bias. This is to be expected. My only point was that a scholar’s research cannot be simplistically dismissed because of the presence of bias, especially when he heavily documents from primary research (as Grisar invariably does). I understand that Grisar is not nearly as favorable or “ecumenical” towards Luther as later Catholic historians. But then later historians are often theologically-liberal, which presents another set of difficulties altogether.
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The point is that Grisar’s books are used by some current Catholics, even though later scholarship has shown their vast short comings. [sic]

And so are the rantings of Luther and Calvin against the Catholic Church, even though later scholarship has shown their vast shortcomings.  Furthermore, Mr. Swan somehow forgets to apply this high and lofty standard of “minimization of bias” when it comes to anti-Catholic apologists. He glowingly recommends, for example, the historical writings of mere amateurs and anti-Catholic polemicists David King and William Webster:

TertiumQuid Sat Jun-28-03 01:05 PM
#55860, “Webster and King book on Sola Scriptura”Have any Roman Catholics picked up the new 3-volume set on Sola Scriptura by David King & William Webster?

Info: http://www.gospelcom.net/ligonier/review/revheader.php?resourceid=657

I frequently go through books written by Roman Catholics. I wondered if any of you ever read the BEST material put out by Protestants. It’s always good to see exactly what the other side is saying firsthand. If you’re not doing this: shame on you . . .

CARM Catholic Board
(http://new.carmforums.org/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=107&topic_id=55860&mesg_id=55860&page=)

I have shown how ignorant these two men are of Catholic theology (and history) in three papers (all unanswered):

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I’m happy to let readers decide how “factually-challenged” both men are, with regard to Catholicism (and development of doctrine), since they refuse to respond to the above critiques. Mr. Swan considers their books the “BEST material put out by Protestants”, and spends hours compiling quotes about the bias of Grisar’s historical research.  Yet King’s and Webster’s extreme historical, highly partisan and polemical bias poses no problems at all for him (we again see his severe double standard). And the reason for that is, I believe, because they are anti-Catholics; they’re on his “side”; therefore, they offer the “best” material on Catholicism, no matter how biased they are (bias only applies as a criticism of Catholic historians and apologists). David King, writes things in public like (for instance):

I already have a very low view of the integrity of non-Protestants in general, and you aren’t helping to improve it.Areopagus Discussion Board
(4-15-03)
(http://pub84.ezboard.com/fntrmindiscussionboardfrm9.showMessageRange?topicID=96.topic&start=41&stop=60)

. . . It’s only a mystery to those who wish to ignore the evidence of the fathers themselves, which I have repeatedly found to be typical of the average Roman apologist like yourself. Ignore the evidence and belittle it. I guess that’s what works in the world of Roman apologetics.

Areopagus Discussion Board
(6-3-03)
(http://pub84.ezboard.com/fntrmindiscussionboardfrm9.showMessage?topicID=252.topic&index=30)

Yes Mr. Armstrong, I do believe Grisar’s “opinions are altogether suspect.

One can only hope that Mr. Swan will, then, find historical opinions by people like King and Webster “altogether suspect” as well, by the same criteria. They have an axe to grind, too, don’t they? What’s good for the goose is good for the gander . . .

13. Swan Song: 12 More Errors and Miscomprehensions
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The really puzzling thing is why Armstrong would cite Grisar for proof that Luther held a lifelong belief in the Immaculate Conception, . . .
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The truly “puzzling thing” is why Mr. Swan would think I did this, when it never occurred!  Mr. Swan shows himself (as so often) “contextually-challenged.” The original context was my paper, Martin Luther’s Devotion to Mary (written in 1994). If one reads that paper carefully, they will see that I cited only the eminent Lutheran scholar Arthur Carl Piepkorn as someone who believed that Luther held this view his entire life. Then I proceeded to cite Luther’s own words, and I started with the 1527 sermon, which I knew of at that point only from Grisar’s reference to it. Nowhere did I state that Grisar offered or provided “proof that Luther held a lifelong belief in the Immaculate Conception,” and I even mentioned that “there is some dispute, over the technical aspects of medieval theories of conception and the soul, and whether or not Luther later changed his mind.”

This is simply fair-minded historical analysis, in the interest of historical truth, whatever it is, not making Luther’s view exactly identical to the Catholic one, at all costs, etc. Nor did I assert that Luther’s view was the same as the 1854 Catholic dogmatic definition. Therefore, Mr. Swan’s argument is much ado about nothing. He needs to read much more carefully than he does and assume a lot less about what his dialogical opponent is trying to accomplish or “prove.”

. . . and then when one checks the quote, Grisar informs us that the quote was taken out of the sermon during Luther’s lifetime. Grisar also informs his readers Luther rejected the Immaculate Conception after 1527. Nowhere in his response does Armstrong try to make sense of these facts, . . .

That’s not true. I provided an entire theory and discussion on whether Luther’s opinions later changed, alluded to above, now for the second time, and thus far entirely ignored by Mr. Swan. I’m answering as I read, so I maintain hope that he will deal with that portion of my paper further down in his own [he didn’t].

. . . nor do I understand why Armstrong would use Grisar when Grisar disagrees with him.

All I did was cite Luther’s words from Grisar: the secondary source, in the original paper. I made no claims for Grisar, and didn’t cite Grisar making his own claims. I didn’t hide anything; I didn’t commit any logical or ethical error. I stated the view of Piepkorn; I didn’t deny that Grisar disagreed with it (rather, I made a general statement that there was dispute about that). I “use” whatever historical source is available to me, within the constraints of time I set for myself, for any given research project. Why this should be such a novelty is a mystery. Perhaps it is puzzling to Mr. Swan because he is wrongly attributing to me a view and an argument that I neither hold, nor have made. He sets up his straw man and then wonders why I am inconsistent or why I “use” the straw man (that I never used) at all. One can’t fail to be somewhat amused by this recurring methodology of Mr. Swan’s, which I have demonstrated him using time and again in my current reply.

I simply cannot accept Mr. Armstrong’s argument by authority in this case [the citation of Piepkorn], since that authority provides no proof or discussion of relevant Luther quotes. Perhaps Mr. Armstrong’s Catholicism allows him to be swayed towards accepting authority without question. As a Protestant, I am more inclined to actually engage in research, weigh the evidence, and draw a conclusion.

Strange, then, that when I provided documentation from many more scholars (as a result of his very challenge), that Mr. Swan decided to not interact with them, or with the reasoning they used, that I cited. He dismisses summary statements by scholars as insufficient “appeals to authority” if they don’t include argumentation, yet when the latter is provided, he ignores it (apparently because it disagrees with his own conclusions). If a person were cynical, they might be inclined to speculate, then, that Mr. Swan simply ignores what he is unable to reply to, and hopes that readers won’t notice either the argument he finds difficult or his non-response to it. But alas, I am here to point out these troubling and inconvenient facts, so he isn’t let off the hook . . .

Mr. Armstrong attempts to use Mary Through The Ages to prove that Jaroslav Pelikan believed Luther held a lifelong commitment to the Immaculate Conception:

In his footnotes 24 and 25 for his chapter 11 of Mary Through the Ages…Jaroslav Pelikan recommends three works of Protestants about Mary, including Wright’s, and one from a Lutheran scholar whom I myself have cited … as a scholarly source for the view that Luther always accepted the Immaculate Conception…

One tires of relentless misrepresentation of one’s views. Again, this fanciful scenario never occurred. I argued (in this particular passage) that Pelikan recommended the work of Arthur Piepkorn: the same scholar I cited concerning Luther’s view on the Immaculate Conception. Piepkorn was the “scholarly source” above, not Pelikan. A few paragraphs down, I reiterated this, mentioning:

. . . the wholehearted agreement of the esteemed non-Catholic scholar, Dr. Pelikan, concerning the excellence of my Protestant source regarding Luther’s lifelong acceptance of the Immaculate Conception (Arthur Carl Piepkorn).

Somehow, Mr. Swan concludes from the above that I was claiming (i.e., on this basis, and from this book) that Pelikan believed what Piepkorn did. Wonders never cease . . .

Armstrong tried a second attempt at establishing Jaroslav Pelikan as a scholar who believed Luther held a lifelong commitment to the Immaculate Conception, this time via Eric Gritsch:

I did indeed do this, and cited Gritsch’s comments above. Mr. Swan is free to demonstrate otherwise. The passage is ambiguous enough that I may have misinterpreted it. But at least my claim was accurately understood for a change.

Mr. Armstrong references Heiko Oberman as a scholar who supports the notion that Luther held a lifelong commitment to the Immaculate Conception.

I did no such thing. If I thought I had evidence that Oberman believed this, I would have added him to my list of 35 scholars’ opinions on Luther and the Immaculate Conception: pro and con (but I didn’t know what his opinion was, either way). Mr. Swan has simply read my words wrongly yet again. I don’t think for a second that Mr. Swan’s shortcoming is deliberate misrepresentation, so I truly wonder why it is that he is almost perpetually getting my opinions wrong (and then proceeding quixotically to tear them down). The rest of his section on Oberman, therefore, is merely a wrongheaded non sequitur. The last sentence gets it right: “Oberman does not discuss Luther’s view of the Immaculate Conception in this article, and neither does Pelikan think that Oberman does.” Unfortunately, however, Mr. Swan doesn’t realize that I agree with this conclusion, rather than disagree with it.

The section following, on the Lutheran confessions, is essentially silly, since Mr. Swan again thinks that my paper was confined solely to replies to his paper. It was not. I found this material historically interesting, so I added it. Period. End of story.

Then Mr. Swan makes much of my comments about Paul Althaus’s book, The Theology of Martin Luther, claiming that I was advocating a “Protestant Conspiracy” and a “Protestant cover up.” because Mary was not much discussed in that book. I’m delighted that Mr. Swan is having so much fun “proving” that I am a conspiratorial nut, but one would hope that he could get his facts right much more often than he does. First of all, I alluded to Protestant “suppression.” The word “suppression” was in quotes, and was partly tongue-in-cheek, indicating that I didn’t advocate a conspiracy or cover-up.  I made quite clear what I was asserting not far below my initial comments:

My point is only that current-day Lutherans and Protestants in general emphasize Mariology far less than the “Protestant Reformers” did (Luther, perhaps, above all). I don’t see that this is even arguable.

Mr. Armstrong in the first instance announces Paul Althaus as suppressing Luther’s Mariology, but then backs off by saying, “It is neither my intention nor purpose to cast aspersions upon professor Althaus’s generally excellent and helpful research.”

This is what is known in writing and discourse as a clarification and/or statement of purpose.

How are Mr. Armstrong’s comments about suppression not casting doubt upon the intellectual honesty of Paul Althaus? This is an example of Mr. Armstrong taking away with one hand (Paul Althaus’s scholarship), and then attempting to give it back with the other (Paul Althaus’s scholarship).

It does not require a charge of dishonesty to simply point out the bias of a work. As I stated above, my position is that the scholars on both sides are naturally biased; that this is normal and to be fully-expected. Mr. Swan can write reams about Hartmann Grisar’s terribly-biased research, yet if I do the same thing much more respectfully concerning a Lutheran historian, all of a sudden it is tantamount to a charge of intellectual dishonesty. I am not the one making that charge. I’m merely pointing to the bias and what I think is a change in emphasis on Mariology, when one compares Luther to later Lutherans and Protestants. Mr. Swan himself does not accept the Immaculate Conception or the perpetual virginity of Mary. So why is this even at issue? It is self-evident.

Mr. Swan is the one who has stated outright that “I do believe Grisar’s “opinions are altogether suspect.’” I have not made the corresponding claim about Paul Althaus; rather, I simply objected to what I felt was an omission in his work.

I have no particular quibbles with Mr. Swan’s treatments of Catholic historians Hilda Graef and Thomas O’Meara and their opinions on Luther’s Mariology, so I need not offer further comment.

Max Thurian provides sparse comments on Luther’s Mariology. It is hardly a thorough treatment, yet Thurian makes Armstrong’s list of scholars that support the notion that Luther held a lifelong belief in the Immaculate Conception . . . It should be clear that Thurian is not putting forth Luther ascribing to the 1854 dogma, but rather one of the earlier differing views. In Armstrong’s summary list, this is not specified. One is left with the impression that Thurian is putting forth Luther’s ascribing to the 1854 dogma, which he is not.

This is untrue, as I clearly specify in the list the distinctions between the views, and I asserted that only three scholars thought Luther held to the 1854 dogma, “in the same sense as the infallible Catholic dogma proclaimed in 1854,” as I worded it. This is the way English works: I specified this in the last three instances; therefore when it was not mentioned, the intent was to claim that the scholar did not believe that. Here is how I prefaced the chart:

I have not discovered a single scholar who treats this subject who denies that the early Luther believed in the Immaculate Conception in some form. The only dispute is over whether he later rejected his earlier views. I shall list the scholars from least convinced about the later Luther to most convinced: even to the point where it is thought his view was identical to that of the Catholic dogma proclaimed ex cathedra in 1854:

I made no claim about David Wright’s views on Luther and the Immaculate Conception (which is why he, too, wasn’t listed on my chart, as my opponent himself noted). Mr. Swan is still laboring in that section under the illusion that I claimed that Jaroslav Pelikan asserted three scholars’ belief in Luther’s lifelong acceptance of the Immaculate Conception. But I only cited him as recommending the excellence of Piepkorn’s scholarship.

Eric Gritsch also makes it to Armstrong’s list of scholars affirming Luther’s lifelong commitment to the Immaculate Conception. However, again Armstrong fails to note that it is probably not the 1854 dogma.

I did indeed clearly note this, if the chart is read correctly, as explained above. It is also obvious in his own statements on the subject, which I cited.

And that concludes my counter-reply (thanks be to God).

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Photo credit: Portrait of Martin Luther (1546), by Lucas Cranach the Elder (1472-1553) [public domain / Wikimedia Commons]

Summary: Part two of a dialogue with anti-Catholic Reformed apologist & polemicist James Swan, about Protestant founder Martin Luther’s view of the Blessed Virgin Mary.

 

2024-04-30T09:53:58-04:00

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This is the original reply and back-and-forth exchange (see the archived version on my original website: dated 6-28-03, and the abridged version, revised on 7-19-20). It was a rebuttal of Anti-Catholic Reformed Protestant polemicist James Swan’s paper, Luther’s Theology of Mary: A Response to Catholic Apologist Dave Armstrong (June 2003), which was in response to my paper, Martin Luther’s Mariology: Reply to James Swan: . . . Particularly the Immaculate Conception / Has Present-Day Protestantism Maintained the Classical “Reformational” Heritage of Mariology? (4-26-03; rev. 4-6-23), which in turn was a reply to his 2003 article, “Martin Luther’s Theology of Mary.” Swan’s words will be in blue.

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See Part 2

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This paper is far too lengthy for me to respond to absolutely every point (it has 201 footnotes, many themselves quite long), and besides, I do not disagree with many of the statements and contentions in the paper , hence there is no particular reason to reply to portions with which I already concur. Thus, I will reply only to sections where I feel that my thought or some statement or other was misrepresented or misunderstood by Mr. Swan (which turned out to be quite numerous), and to areas where we would actually disagree, and/or where I feel I have some further relevant information or research to present. Readers can assume that I either agree with anything in Mr. Swan’s paper that I haven’t responded to below, or that I have no particular objection, or think it not worth spending time arguing about, or researching further.
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Part of the dispute between us (as far as I can tell) has to do with what Mr. Swan thinks I am claiming with regard to Luther’s Mariology (he exaggerates my claims and tries to make “rhetorical hay” out of some of them — seemingly for apologetic and polemical purposes). Apart from his disturbingly frequent inadvertently false portrayals of my own views, I commend Mr. Swan for an educational and interesting piece of research. As a student of Church history (I love history almost as much as theology — especially the history of Christian doctrine), I always appreciate such in-depth work, particularly where Martin Luther is concerned, as I find him a fascinating figure on many levels.
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Words of mine from my previous paper or elsewhere will be indented, in order to distinguish them from present replies. If I cite Mr. Swan’s words from sources other than his latest paper above, they will also be indented and still in blue. That way, I need not always mention that it is an earlier comment of his. The indentations will serve as a “code.”

TABLE OF CONTENTS 

1. Preliminaries

2. “Hostility, “Ad Hominem,” & the Notorious “BJ Bear”

3. My Supposed “Ever-Changing” Paper, “Extremities,” and “Complexities”

4. Luther’s Mariological Development and Qualifiers in My Viewpoint

5. Cardboard Caricatures of Medieval Marian Piety / St. Alphonsus de Liguori as a “Test Case” of Marian Excess

6. The Immaculate Conception and the Gospel According to James

1. Preliminaries

This paper is a response to the multiple versions of Dave Armstrong’s “Counter Reply: Martin Luther’s Mariology (Particularly the Immaculate Conception).”

The first version lasted only two days, and was modified after I discovered I had made a significant mistake, so the earlier versions are now irrelevant. My present Internet upload of the above paper is my final version and the one I now stand by. I shall comment more on this below, as Mr. Swan comments on now-obsolete statements of mine.

Currently, I have three different versions of Mr. Armstrong’s response to my paper, varying in layout and content.

The one above is the only relevant one.

Anyone familiar with Internet theological bulletin boards have at some point come across Roman Catholic criticism of Martin Luther. Fairly common topics include: . . . his alleged desire to be a Protestant pope, . . .

I have good reason to believe that Mr. Swan may be referring to my paper: Martin Luther the “Super-Pope” (?) and de facto Infallibility (?): With Extensive Documentation From Luther’s Own Words [11-13-02; rev. 5-15-03 and 6-18-06]. This argument of mine is often misunderstood by Protestants, and the above characterization is misleading in its simplicity and how it will likely be interpreted. I refer readers to my paper above, to better understand how I approach the issue of Luther’s self-anointed authority over against the papal authority which is always a large target of Protestant polemics. It is an instance of “turning the tables.” But one must try to make a valiant effort to take off their “Protestant glasses” when reading the paper, lest it be misunderstood in both content and intent (as it often is in fact).

Interestingly though, when it comes to the topic of Mary, Roman Catholic sentiment towards Luther shifts considerably. Luther becomes the staunch supporter of Mary; a leader that all contemporary Protestants should learn a great lesson in Mariology from. This drastic shift is puzzling; particularly since Luther’s abandoning of the intercession of the saints and his doctrine of justification significantly changes his Marian approach.

I don’t see why it should be “puzzling” at all. Luther’s Mariology is much closer to the Mariology of Catholicism than that of Protestantism, even of his own branch of it: Lutheranism. This is what a Catholic finds interesting and of note. It’s one of those fascinating tidbits of history that makes the study of history so enjoyable. Furthermore, it follows that if “going back to one’s roots” and being a so-called “Reformation Protestant” are worthwhile endeavors (it is for many thoughtful, historically-conscious Protestants today), then I think it is significant that Protestantism has largely rejected the Mariology of Luther and other early Protestants (the shift with regard to the perpetual virginity of Mary is a particularly striking evolution of doctrine within Protestantism — in most cases today a 180-degree reversal).

As for Luther’s stance on intercession of the saints, I have already long since acknowledged that this is a difference from the Catholic view, but (in my opinion) not enough of a difference to make his Mariology closer in content to current Protestant Mariology than to Catholic Mariology.

My paper was not written for the intention of inviting Mr. Armstrong to debate. Rather, it was posted . . . for the broader Protestant Internet community. I understand why Mr. Armstrong would feel the need to respond, since I referenced his web page as an example of popular Roman Catholic approaches to Luther’s Mariology.

I was interested in the subject matter.

2. “Hostility, “Ad Hominem,” & the Notorious “BJ Bear”
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C. Hostility and Ad Hominem
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In his initial response to my paper, Mr. Armstrong confused me with another person whom he dialogued with a few months ago. His response was quite offensive, regardless of whom he was critiquing.

This is highly interesting, in that Mr. Swan regards a simple case of mistaken identity as a breach of ethics or methodological flaw serious enough to devote a section of his paper to it and to go on and on as if this proves some terrible deficiency in my character or intellectual abilities. I also find it fascinating that he finds my response offensive, no matter who it was critiquing. This is a clear instance where context means everything. Unless one knows the original context, then one cannot properly judge the prima facie harshness of my words. Mr. Swan provided none, and so this becomes a classic exercise of giving only half the story, which amounts to a half-truth, which is not much better than a lie.

In his catalogue of my colorful “hostile” remarks, he mixes in some which were directed towards the other person whom I initially thought was him, with others directed toward the arguments of his first paper. The first category is no longer relevant; many of the comments of the second category were edited out when I myself considered them too harsh and uncharitable. But I guess this is not good enough for Mr. Swan. Rather than commend me for editing out overly-harsh remarks, he takes the opportunity to try to “prove” (or so it would seem) that I am a loose cannon who raves uncontrollably (in the vein of Luther himself). Somehow he seems to think that this proves something scandalous and unsavory in my case, but not in the case of Martin Luther, who say far worse things about far more people, and with far less warrant and justification.

The case of mistaken identity is easily explained. The person on whose website Mr. Swan’s first paper appeared mentioned in his announcement ran across Mr. Swan on a discussion board where he was engaging in discussion with me, and allegedly revealing my “extremely poor research methods.” I assumed that this was another person, who goes by the nickname “BJ Bear” (I still don’t know this person’s real name), because he was the one who accused me of incompetence in matters of citation and documentation, in a lengthy dialogue about some of Luther’s statements about his own authority. Mr. Swan (as I recall) was also interjecting comments “on the sidelines” during that debate, but was not the main participant, by any means.

The confusion was strictly due to the annoying habit of many people on bulletin boards, of using nicknames only and not their real names. So James Swan was known to me only as “TertiumQuid” until I discovered his paper on Tim’s website. I thought he was “BJ Bear” at first, but within a day or so he informed me that he was not. I promptly apologized and modified my paper accordingly. Yet Mr. Swan continues to talk about the earlier versions. The reader can decide for himself what his purpose is in doing this. I find it rather petty and unnecessary.

As for the other person, “BJ Bear,” whom I described (in my first version of the paper) as “critical and overbearing,” and one who put forth much “tedious insulting material” — this is all absolutely true. I think any fair-minded person who read my exchange with him on Luther would agree that his attitude left much to be desired. I was trying to discuss the import and meaning of a statement of Luther’s, and instead, “BJ” turned the discussion into one long examination consisting of (as I described it) “snide insinuations of my alleged profound incompetence and dishonesty.” Unfortunately, I recently edited out his comments from the paper. I did not keep a back-up copy and it was too old to retrieve from the original bulletin board exchange (probably for the better, as the exchange was excruciatingly boring and tedious — precisely why I edited it down). Mr. Swan, however, did cite a few of the comments in a public post. They give a good and representative flavor of the overall tone and tenor of “BJ Bear’s” remarks:

Propaganda isn’t as effective when specific references are given. The severe editing of the text in the original post and the following commentary betrays an incredible lack of understanding and/or deliberate bias. Using your style of citation and interpretation an atheist can easily prove that the Bible teaches there never was a god. Using your method it would go like this, “In the beginning … There is no god … You are gods.”I leave you with a definition and recommended reading.

Context: the parts of a written or spoken statement that precede or follow a specific word or passage, usually influencing its meaning or effect. Webster’s Unabridged Dictionary.

How To Read A Book, by Mortimer J. Adler. Glad to be of help in your acquisition of knowledge. I’m looking forward to reading an effective Roman Catholic apologetic argument.

The entire discussion was about a quote in one of my papers that was from Luther. “BJ” complained that it deleted large portions of material that he found in the 55-volume version of the words under consideration in Luther’s Works in English. He argued / insinuated that because I didn’t include ellipses [i.e., . . . ], and because there were several pages of material in-between, that I was therefore incompetent and had not the slightest clue of how to document information.

Well, it turned out that the mistake was not mine at all, but, in fact, that of Will Durant, the noted historian and author of the well-known multi-volume Story of Civilization (from which I got my quote). As far as I can tell (though it is speculative), it turned on the fact that he was citing a German version of Luther’s writings, which differed from the English version of that particular excerpt.  I take it as uncontroversial that I, as a non-academic lay apologist, can cite a professional historian (Mr. Swan cites dozens of them in his latest paper, in the same fashion) and trust that he has checked out the primary sources, and so forth. Since Durant made this egregious mistake that “BJ Bear” made so much of, this only goes to show that either the German version of Luther’s words was different (in which case it wouldn’t be a “mistake” at all, but a case of differing versions) or that professional historians make mistakes in citation (which I already knew, as they are human beings like the rest of us).

But did this error (or differing translation) prove (following my opponent’s convoluted reasoning) that Will Durant suffered from “an incredible lack of understanding and/or deliberate bias”? I think not. After I pointed these inconvenient facts out, “BJ Bear” understandably went rather silent (and, strangely, I have never heard from him since). His task was to embarrass me and show me up as an incompetent boob, not to do that to the secularist historian Will Durant (who wasn’t exactly an “RC apologist”)! The amusement of such folly and comic turn of events more than made up for the offensiveness of the false charge. Now, thanks to Mr. Swan’s insistence on bringing up the “embarrassing” incident again, readers can make up their own mind as to who is failing to attain a certain level of “scholarly respectability” and refraining from “hostility and ad hominem.”

He also seems to insinuate that since I am merely a “seminary student” I couldn’t possibly have an accurate opinion on Luther.

I did no such thing. One must read words in context, and once again Mr. Swan neglects it and so gives a most misleading impression. Mr. Swan is simply being overly-sensitive. Here is the context of the remark he refers to (emphasis added):

In light of the context of his entire paper, it is clear that Mr. Swan is skeptical of such a description of early Protestant views; he does not accept it. He neglects to inform the reader, however, that Pelikan himself (a far more authoritative voice on such matters than Mr. Swan, a seminary student) is not nearly so skeptical. I shall cite his statements from the same book. Mr. Pelikan noted the vigorous opposition of early Protestants to idolatry and excesses of the communion of saints — as I did, in my article above — (much of which was in full agreement with Catholic teaching, rightly-understood). But Pelikan maintains that that is not the entire picture of
early Protestant Mariology:

. . . it would be a mistake, and one which many interpretations of the Reformation both friendly and hostile have all too easily fallen, to emphasize these negative and polemical aspects of its Mariology at the expense of the positive place the Protestant Reformers assigned to her in their theology. (24) They repeated . . . the central content of the orthodox confession of the first five centuries of Christian history. (25) (Pelikan, ibid. [Mary Through The Ages, New Haven: Yale University Press, 1996], 157)

Mr. Swan needs to ponder the essential, profound logical difference between the following two propositions:

1) A well-known and well-respected Church historian carries more authority when he gives his opinion on early Protestant Mariology, than a seminary student does.2) A seminary student couldn’t possibly have an accurate opinion on Luther, or his Mariology, or early Protestant Mariology.

I (in effect) asserted the first proposition, as seen by the context of the “offensive” (?) remark, above. I did not assert the second at all, nor would I ever state it, and in fact, if I had stated such a silly, foolish thing, it would immediately backfire on me, since I have no formal theological education at all, and thus if I believed this I would have to stop writing about Luther myself. Furthermore, proposition one above is not only not insulting, it is (or should be) completely non-insulting and is, I think, self-evidently true. Yet Mr. Swan was somehow offended by it (??).

His final comment was perhaps the most telling of his attitude toward my abilities:

As the inquirer gets deeper and deeper into the subject, many other more advanced treatments (including dialogues with educated, theologically-literate Protestants) can be found in my papers and links…

This is an even more groundless charge and needless offense than the remark explained above. Mr. Swan completely misunderstands my statement and makes an unwarranted assumption (viz., that my words in the parentheses were somehow intended to be a subtle, belittling swipe at him, as if I was contrasting such a person to him). Nothing could be further from the truth. This came after a list of recommended papers of mine about Mary — for readers who wanted to delve more deeply into the subject. All I was saying was that I have on my website many dialogues with educated Protestants (as opposed to uneducated ones). I seek out the best Protestant opponents I can find. That’s all this meant. Period. Mr. Swan assumes rather a lot about my internal attitudes. He assumes falsely. And I sure hope this sort of “analysis” from him will cease if we dialogue in the future.

Thus we see that Mr. Swan’s examples of my “hostility and ad hominem” include:

1) Some true remarks about another person (at first incorrectly directed towards Mr. Swan, for reasons explained) who falsely accused me of gross apologetic incompetence.
2) Remarks that I removed within two days, after self-reflection.
3) An example which was based (in proper context) on an utterly illogical conclusion that doesn’t follow at all from the words I wrote.
4) An example of an utterly mistaken and overly-sensitive interpretation by Mr. Swan.

Whatever else “personally offensive” that remains on my paper should be discussed in context, as well. Simply creating a laundry list of colorful critical remarks with absolute neglect of context will not do, and amounts to a wholesale distortion of my thought-processes, and an unseemly cynicism.

Nor will the reader find any slander against Mr. Armstrong in my original paper.

This is true. Nor have I slandered Mr. Swan. I am quite critical of some of his arguments and comments. But that is not slander. It is merely disagreement (even if expressed in colorful terminology — which I have been known to do at times).

This situation was ‘somewhat’ rectified when I pointed out Armstrong’s error of misidentification.  When he realized he was firing at the wrong target, Mr. Armstrong edited his response and toned down some of his hostile language. Some of the above comments are still contained in later versions of his paper.

They need to be read in context and discussed individually. I contend that no slander is present once my words are accurately interpreted.

3. My Supposed “Ever-Changing” Paper, “Extremities,” and “Complexities”
*
Perhaps with the ever-changing nature of Mr. Armstrong’s web page response, we can expect to see further editing.
*

I find this very amusing. I uploaded the paper on April 24th. Upon learning that Mr. Swan was not “BJ Bear” I edited it two days later, also adding some new material and re-organizing it. It’s called “editing.” It’s called “refining.” A single change within two days somehow gets described as “ever-changing”?

Earlier versions of Mr. Armstrong’s response followed no apparent order. His response was filled with a fair amount of tangential material, sending the reader in a multitude of directions (directions worthy of study, yet tangential to my paper).

Again: who cares about earlier versions? Why even mention it now? This is precisely why I better-organized it, two days later. My paper is not simply a response to Mr. Swan’s and nothing else. As is my usual custom, I often use dialogical opportunities as “springboards” to explore wider subject matter (what interests me and what I feel will be helpful to my website readers): in this case the Mariology of the early Protestants, generally-speaking. Thus, not everything in my paper is to be regarded as a “counter-response.”  This miscomprehension comes up often in Mr. Swan’s paper.

It is my contention that Mr. Armstrong’s material on Luther’s theology of Mary reflects an extreme position: the great Reformer was primarily in agreement with Rome in both doctrine and practice, with only minor conflict.

I would say that my view and approach to this topic is more so the belief that Luther’s Mariology is closer in content and spirit to Catholicism than to present-day Lutheranism (and far closer, compared to present-day Protestantism-in-general). In other words, I am examining its relative position between the two camps, not simply the Catholic camp. I fail to see how this position is extreme, in light of statements in my first paper such as the following from Protestants:

[T]he Churches that look back to the Reformers have on the whole been less affirmative about Mary than most of the Reformers themselves. (Chosen by God: Mary in Evangelical Perspective, London: Marshall Pickering, 1989, 123 [David Wright])

Another Lutheran scholar, Basilea Schlink, believes that:

[T]he majority of us have drifted away from the proper attitude towards her, which Martin Luther had indicated to us on the basis of Holy Scripture … (Mary, the Mother of Jesus, London: Marshall Pickering, 1986, 114-115)

Elliot Miller, of the evangelical Christian Research Institute (founded by the eminent cult researcher, the late Dr. Walter Martin), confesses:

[I]t is regrettably true that some Protestants—no doubt in reaction to Catholic excesses—have almost forgotten Mary . . . (“The Mary of Roman Catholicism,” Christian Research Journal, Summer 1990: 9-15; Fall 1990: 27-33; quote from p. 33)

It seems to me that I am not asserting much more than these Protestants. Is Mr. Swan prepared to call their view “extreme” too? I believe my contention here is rather obvious. Luther believed in some form of the Immaculate Conception. He believed in Mary’s Assumption. He believed in her perpetual virginity. He freely called her “Mother of God” (Theotokos). He spoke of honoring her, and preached eighty Marian sermons. Most Protestants today deny the first three tenets outright, are reluctant to say “Mother of God” (usually due to Nestorian tendencies and a misunderstanding of what the term means, and how it historically developed), “honor” Mary (if at all), only at Christmastime or during sentimental moments while singing Silent Night, and preach and talk about her hardly at all (I don’t recall ever hearing a Marian sermon in my 13 years as an evangelical Christian). Yet Mr. Swan would have us believe that my view is “extreme” in simply asserting that Luther’s views are closer to Catholicism than Protestantism? It’s a strange world . . .

Studying Luther is no easy task, and the studies of Luther throughout the past 500 years can sometimes be both help and hindrance.

I wholeheartedly concur. I don’t deny that Luther’s thought developed (Mr. Swan implies that I do deny that). But it is also true that he was contradictory (even beyond his characteristic rhetorical contrasts and exaggerations) and that his later years were less coherent (at least in expression) than his earlier years. I think all these things are true. This is Luther. He was complex and fascinating and often (from a Catholic dogmatic perspective) exasperatingly and stubbornly dead-wrong. Mr. Swan himself wrote on a Protestant bulletin board, on 4-24-03:

I am acutely aware of how difficult it is to present an accurate picture of Luther. Hence, I welcome any of you that take historical studies seriously to correct me where I miss the mark . . .   Where Luther had warts, there is no need to cover them up. Where Luther did not have warts, shame on anyone who puts them there.Areopagus (http://pub84.ezboard.com/fntrmindiscussionboardfrm9.showMessage?topicID=155.topic)

Why is he being so hard on me, then, in describing my thesis on a complex question about a complex person as “extreme”? His descriptions are what are “extreme” here, not my views. I’m sure Mr. Swan knows a lot more about the details of Luther’s thought and life than I do. My interest in Luther is only one of dozens of theological interests that I have and in which I engage in my work as an apologist. Mr. Swan can specialize. I don’t have that luxury in my line of work. Yet I don’t think this means I have offered no support for my opinions about the “contradictory” Luther. I cited Roland Bainton (author of probably the most well-known biography of Luther: Here I Stand), who showed that Luther developed, but was also “an irascible old man, petulant, peevish, unrestrained, and at times positively coarse.”

Likewise, in my paper about Luther’s anti-Catholicism, [Dave (4-29-24) since removed, and I have changed my opinion somewhat since then] I cited a scholar, Mark U. Edwards, Jr. (Protestant, I believe), and his book, Luther’s Last Battles: Politics and Polemics, 1531-1546 (Ithaca, New York and London: Cornell University Press, 1983). Writing about Luther’s work, Against the Papacy at Rome, Founded by the Devil (March 1545), Edwards states:

The last major polemic of Luther’s life . . . was intended to inform Protestants of the true horror of the papal antichrist and to discredit the council convened at Trent . . . Without question it is the most intentionally violent and vulgar writing to come from Luther’s pen. (p. 163)

Luther even commissioned Lucas Cranach to do a series of eight cartoons to give graphic expression to his evaluation of the papacy. He provided instructions for what the cartoons were to show and penned satirical verses to accompany them. The violence and vulgarity of the treatise carried over to the cartoons . . . And he continued:

Next one should take the pope, cardinals, and whatever servants there are of his idolatry and papal holiness, and rip out their tongues at the roots (as blasphemers of God) and nail them on the gallows. . . Next, let them hold a council or whatever they want on the gallows or in hell.

One of the cartoons depicts the pope and cardinals, and their tongues, being treated in just this brutal fashion . . . Another example, this one of the vulgarity with which Luther felt the papacy should be treated, came in his discussion of the keys . . . ‘In addition, we may in good conscience,’ he wrote, ‘take his coat-of-arms, which features the keys, and his crown to the privy and use them to relieve our needs [and] afterwards throw them into the fire (it would be better if it were the pope himself).’ The associated cartoon shows a peasant defecating into the papal tiara while two other peasants await their turn . . . A third cartoon shows the Pope and three cardinals being expelled from the anus of a female devil while three furies are nursing and caring for three infant popes. The cartoon was titled ‘origin of the pope’ and was a graphic echo of Luther’s assertion in his treatise that the pope had been born from the devil’s behind . . . (pp. 189, 199)

Roland Bainton describes this “art” (my quotation marks) as “outrageously vulgar . . . in all of this he was utterly unrestrained” (Here I Stand: A Life of Martin Luther, New York: Mentor, 1950, 298).

4. Luther’s Mariological Development and Qualifiers in My Viewpoint
*
Mr. Armstrong attempts to use O’Meara and Lortz to deny this growth and development.
*

My paper sees Luther as a gifted thinker whose theology grew and developed, rather than a man whose later years were plagued by incoherence and ravings.

I deny the first comment and agree with the first clause of the second comment. I think Luther’s “incoherence and ravings” spanned his entire lifetime. The two are not mutually exclusive. As a serious theologian, his thought developed and expanded. The other aspect (second clause above) had mainly to do with his portrayal of Catholicism and Catholics. His caricatures of Catholic doctrine and practices became more outrageous and vulgar as he grew older. But that is a different thing from his own theology. So I say that both aspects are true.  I need not deny either. It’s a false dichotomy.

. . . I pointed out that “Luther did indeed have a Mariology.” Mr. Armstrong though seems to think I am denying that Luther (and the Reformers) had a Mariology.

No; I denied Mr. Swan’s assertion that Luther’s Mariology was closer to Protestantism than to Catholicism. That was my underlying thesis, and the one which Mr. Swan so strongly (but curiously and strangely) disavows. It is not the same statement as “denying that Luther . . . had a Mariology.” It’s a matter of degree rather than “existence vs. nonexistence.” Mr. Swan apparently thinks I am special pleading and distorting the historical picture for Catholic polemical reasons. I need not distort anything. I think history clearly tells us (above and beyond scholarly disagreements on various details) that Luther and also the other early Protestant leaders were far more interested in and devoted to Mary than present-day Protestants. Mr. Swan can “work around the edges” of this truth but it won’t change the fact.

This is a major charge against Mr. Armstrong’s response: throughout his paper he documents that Luther had a Mariology (as well as other early Reformers), but then fails to explore the content of that Mariology by citing and exploring the primary source writings of Luther.  Mr. Armstrong infrequently cites Luther in his response, . . .

My main interest was in his view of the Immaculate Conception. Thus the subtitle: “Particularly the Immaculate Conception.” I cited plenty of his own writings in that regard.

. . . and rarely interacts with the quotes of Luther I used. One would think he would have scoured contexts in order to prove my interpretation of Luther faulty. Such argumentation is missing from the bulk of his response.

Of course it is, because I agreed with most of these Luther quotes from Mr. Swan. How could I not? These were Luther’s own words about his Mariology. That was not an area of disagreement. The same thing will apply to much of his present paper, when we get into Luther’s words and scholarly appraisals of his Mariology. That Luther’s Mariology was Christocentric and “non-dogmatic” and lacking the intercessory aspect is utterly uncontroversial. But Mr. Swan seems to think it is controversial to contend that Luther’s Mariology is more akin to Catholicism than to present-day Protestantism. And that is why all the quotes from Protestants suggesting a view like mine were relevant to my purpose and argument (if not his), despite Mr. Swan’s protests of their irrelevance. But Mr. Swan (though continuing to describe my view of the matter as “extreme”) has softened his position a little bit in his second paper, stating:

There are similarities because both Rome and Luther have a Mariology, employ similar terms, and are aware of Christological teaching about Mary.

It is the content and progress though of Luther’s Mariology that is the focal point of my paper.

I dealt with that somewhat (mostly within scholarly quotations, and mostly about the Immaculate Conception). Most of this will be uncontroversial, and I will have no comment because I accept it just as Mr. Swan does. His paper, in many respects, complements rather than contradicts my first paper and the present one.

Mr. Armstrong thinks that I incorrectly summarized his view of Luther’s Mariology when I said he drew a picture of Luther espousing a doctrine of Mary that reflects Roman Catholic theology, with little or no conflict with Luther’s Reformation ideals.

I was responding by taking into consideration the context of how you introduced (or prefaced) your remarks, which was as follows:

. . . A quick search for information about Martin Luther on the World Wide Web reveals that polemics against Luther remain frequent and high-pitched, as different groups create the villain they find in  his writings. The basic elements of Luther’s thought are generally missing, distorting the man, his theology, . . . Others present a more “Catholic” Luther . . .  Such is the case with Luther’s theology of Mary.

Then the example of a statement from my website is offered. In context, the insinuation (at least as I interpreted it) is that I am offering a skewed, distorted picture and special pleading; making Luther out to be a “Catholic” in this regard, at the expense of his distinctively Protestant emphases. This is false. I simply present Luther as he was, as far as I can ascertain with the help of the historians. And, as I said, I offered several qualifications (about eight, as it were) where I contrasted Luther with the Catholic view. That doesn’t sound “extreme” or like some sort of pre-planned “knee-jerk” reaction to me. Mr. Swan then denied that the Mariological situation in Protestantism had changed much:

By reading selected quotes [of] Luther, it does indeed appear that Protestantism has deviated from his veneration of Mary.

He though would rather be thought to hold, “several nuanced [sic] qualifying remarks, contrasting Luther’s Marian views with those of the Catholic Church.” The only qualifier he actually mentions is Luther’s rejection of the intercession and invocation of the saints.

This is simply untrue. In the very same context, following my words above, I wrote:

. . . Immaculate Conception . . . Concerning this question there is some dispute, over the technical aspects of medieval theories of conception and the soul, and whether or not Luther later changed his mind . . .  . . . In later life (he died in 1546), Luther did not believe that this doctrine should be imposed on all believers, since he felt that the Bible didn’t explicitly and formally teach it.. . . he was highly critical of what he felt were excesses in the celebration of this Feast [of the Assumption].

Luther did strongly condemn any devotional practices which implied that Mary was in any way equal to our Lord or that she took anything away from His sole sufficiency as our Savior. This is, and always has been, the official teaching of the Catholic Church.

His attitude towards the use of the “Hail Mary” prayer (the first portion of the Rosary) is illustrative. In certain polemical utterances he appears to condemn its recitation altogether, but he is only forbidding a use of Marian devotions apart from heartfelt faith, . . .

Furthermore, in my citations of scholars concerning the Immaculate Conception, many disagreements are explored. So this is six or seven more qualifiers and contrasts. It’s another frustrating instance of Mr. Swan not reading or understanding my words very well at all. And this was from my paper, Martin Luther’s Devotion to Mary [see a later revised version with one clarification], which was cited by Mr. Swan in his first paper, and which was written in 1994! I hope this doesn’t become a pattern: Mr. Swan reads something of mine about Mary; he goes on (despite reading it) to make a false claim about my understanding of Luther’s Mariology. I quote portions of the same material again; he continues to make a false charge; I cite it a second time (now) . . . one wonders if three times reading it will cause him to stop misunderstanding my viewpoint? Why should I have to cite again in this paper what I already cited in the last one?

Mr. Armstrong’s approach to Luther is an excellent example of the “drastic shift” I noted above. When Luther makes positive comments in regard to Mary, Luther is seen as a positive theological beacon that all Protestants should flock towards.

Here we go with the melodramatic words again. First, we had “extreme,” now “drastic.” My views are neither, as far as I am concerned. First of all, the argument at a deeper level is a comment on the internal dynamics of Protestantism, with regard to the relationship of current Protestants to their origins (perhaps this aspect was misunderstood — my arguments against Protestantism often are, because Protestants are so completely unacquainted with such vigorous critiques and Catholic modes of thinking and argumentation are very foreign to them):

1) Luther founded Protestantism.
2) Many Protestants today are seeking to revisit, incorporate, or re-establish the “Reformation heritage.”
3) Part of that heritage is Luther’s Mariology, which is far more robust than present Protestant Mariology.
4) Protestants ought to ponder why this is, and consider that it may suggest that there is a bit more to Catholic distinctives than meets the eye, seeing that Luther’s principle was sola Scriptura, not adherence to all dogmas of the Catholic Church.

Secondly, I don’t see why it is somehow a questionable notion that Catholics would commend Luther when his views are similar or identical to theirs. After all, Protestants do this all the time in their polemics, the other way around. They will quote some Catholic or a Church Father whom they think sounds like a Protestant (St. Augustine is routinely utilized in this way). They will extoll him to the heavens. But when the same person speaks in some shockingly Catholic way (say, about purgatory or allegiance to the pope), then he is (rhetorically) cast off like a pair of dirty socks. Protestant histories of the early Church are often typified by this love-hate relationship with early Christians.

Philip Schaff, in particular, comes to mind. He will often praise the “Protestant” elements of some Father and then immediately rail against the “Catholic” stuff that was widespread at the time — to his obvious dismay and bewilderment. Schaff is quite opinionated, but he sticks to facts and tells it like it was, which is why I like him so much. When Luther is right, the Catholic will commend him! That this is an amazing, “drastic” phenomenon is “extremely” curious to me. It’s just common sense. Truth is truth.

After spending time reading Armstrong’s articles about Luther, why should anyone believe Luther about anything?

Because the standard of truth is a separate entity from Luther. If he is right about something, then he is right, regardless of how wrong he is on many other points. This is elementary.

Why is it that when Luther speaks about Mary, anybody should listen?

Protestants should listen, because he is the founder of their system and highly respected by them. The more relevant question, in my mind, would be, “why should Protestants ignore Luther when he teaches about Mary, and why should they paternalistically dismiss his Mariology as, e.g., an unfortunate ‘holdover’ from the Catholicism that he only recently emerged out of?”

It is hard to take Mr. Armstrong’s views on Luther seriously.

One wonders, then, why such a huge paper (the longest direct response to my work that I have yet encountered) is devoted to them . . .

What Armstrong rips away with one hand (Luther as an authority: The great Reformer), he attempts to give back with the other (Luther as an authority: Protestant Mariology).

This is wrongheaded insofar as it misunderstands what I am trying to state and achieve in my argument (as I am trying to clarify throughout this paper). Secondly, Catholics oppose Luther, Calvin, and other Protestants only as far as they dissent from received Tradition. Where they agree with us, we rejoice. In other words, we oppose their heresy (from the perspective of Catholic orthodoxy).

Mr. Armstrong stayed away from denying my point that Luther’s Mariology was Christocentric.

It doesn’t seem to occur to Mr. Swan that this was because I agree with his point! Of course, I also assert that Catholic Mariology is Christocentric. That was the point of it from the beginning: its development was always for the purpose of safeguarding the divinity of Jesus. This was especially true in the controversies with the Nestorians over the title Theotokos (Mother of God).

5. Cardboard Caricatures of Medieval Marian Piety / St. Alphonsus de Liguori as a “Test Case” of Marian Excess
*
In another place, Gritsch explains Luther’s Mariology is presented in the context of “a christocentric theology which Luther saw affirmed in apostolic and patristic thought, but no longer in the normative scholastic tradition of the medieval Western church.”  This is a striking implication and indictment of the medieval church.
*

It certainly is, but I haven’t seen anything to prove that this was indeed the case in the “normative scholastic tradition.” I understand this is discussed in greater depth later in Mr. Swan’s paper, so I’ll see if he can “deliver the goods” then, in terms of some actual proof from definitive Catholic doctrinal statements [he did not].

In my description of the medieval climate and Luther’s own admission of partaking in Mariolatry (while a faithful son of the Catholic Church), Mr. Armstrong’s charges that I put forth a “Cardboard Caricatures of Medieval (and Orthodox Catholic) Marian Piety.”

Indeed I did, and rightly so, for Mr. Swan made absurd statements like the following:

Mary had taken the role of intercessor, co-redeemer, and had been elevated to the status of a “goddess” who would defeat Satan.  She had become an idol. In the worship of idols, there is no salvation. Mary takes on the attributes of Christ and thus becomes an idol . . .

While Luther could call Mary the “Mother of God,” he was far more concerned to say something about the work of God in Christ than about her, thus, he un-deified her by definition.  His usage was not intended to be a quasi-divine statement of veneration similar to medieval or current Roman Catholic trends.  When Luther abandoned aspects of Mariology like the Immaculate Conception, it served to further un-deify the goddess . . . making sure that Mary was not to be deified . . .

Her attributes were worshipped in order to gain her favor.

He saw that she had been adorned with attributes that only belonged to Christ.

What Mr. Armstrong fails to do in these criticisms is to put forth doctrinal standards of Marian piety within the Sixteenth Century to correct my (alleged) caricature.

That’s not my task. Rather, it is Mr. Swan’s task to show that any of these absurd claims can be demonstrated by official Catholic teaching. I say that they cannot. The burden of proof is on him, since he is making the charge. I’m not interested in doing a giant study on the Marian folk piety of the Middle Ages. But if Mr. Swan can show me some documentation that the Church ever taught the nonsense he describes above, then I would surely respond.

He cannot seriously be suggesting the latest version of the Catholic catechism was the doctrinal standard for Marian piety four hundred years ago, or for that matter the Second Vatican Council.

Development occurs, of course, but it has been a consistent development with regard to Mary. It was never taught that she was a “goddess” or an “idol” or that she was “deified” or “quasi-divine.”

What he fails to document is whether sixteenth century elite Catholics knew what excessive Marian devotion was.

It’s not my burden. If Mr. Swan thinks he has seen something suggesting this, then he needs to produce it and we can continue the discussion. I don’t waste my time trying to disprove straw men. Mr. Swan needs to demonstrate his extraordinary claims with some solid documentation.

It seems apparent that many of the theologically educated of the sixteenth century participated in excessive Mariology and deviant piety.

By all means, then, I would like to see this “apparent” truth documented by citing official documents and orthodox Catholic theologians who taught the goofy stuff that is alleged by Mr. Swan. He cites in his Appendix C lengthy comments by Jaroslav Pelikan (then Lutheran, now Orthodox). It is obvious that Mr. Swan’s main concern in with the notion of Mary Mediatrix, which he interprets (as far as I can tell) as involving making Mary a “goddess” or an “idol” or  “deified” or “quasi-divine.” Of course this is not true, and the subject is quite involved and deserving of its own in-depth treatment. This I have done on my website, in the following papers:

Several of these are of particular relevance to our present dispute. In the last paper, I have several sections devoted to extensive biblical evidences and analogies to Mary Mediatrix. The notion is not as utterly absent from Scripture as most Protestants assume:

II. Biblical Evidence: Mary, Paul, and “Spirits” as Distributors of Grace
III. Biblical Evidence: John 19:26-27, Revelation 12, and the Daughter of Zion: Mary as Spiritual Mother
IV. Biblical Evidence: Unilateral Atonement and Redemptive Suffering Among Christians as a Direct Analogy to Mary’s Preeminent Role

In my paper, St. Alphonsus de Liguori: Mary-Worshiper & Idolater? [8-9-02], I catalogued how this saint, in the very book which is considered by many to be the epitome of Catholic Mariological, supposedly “idolatrous” excess, made it very clear that he, too, was Christocentric (precisely the thing that Mr. Swan claims that even “educated” Catholics lacked till Martin Luther came along to set them straight). Now it is true that St. Alphonsus lived in the 18th century, yet he was perhaps the foremost (or most “notorious,” depending on one’s perspective) exponent of what many Protestants like Mr. Swan would see as an outrageous, blasphemous Mariology which supposedly raises the Blessed Virgin to a “goddess” or an “idol” or “deified” or “quasi-divine” state. Therefore, it is highly relevant and important to examine closely how he speaks about Jesus Christ, and the centrality of the Lord. I did this. Here are his own statements (all fully documented in the above paper):

 1) “My most loving Redeemer and Lord Jesus Christ”
 2) “graces that I have received from God”
 3) “his precious blood in which alone is our salvation, life, and resurrection.”
 4) “the plenitude of all grace which is in Christ as the Head, from which it flows, as   from its source”
 5) “God is the source of every good, and the absolute master of all graces”
 6) “Mary is only a pure creature”
 7) “Mary . . . receives whatever she obtains as a pure favor from God”
 8) “Jesus Christ is the only Mediator of justice”
 9) “by his merits he obtains us all graces and salvation”
10) ” receiving all she obtains through Jesus Christ, . . . in the name of Jesus Christ”
11) “. . . all graces that have been, that are, and will be dispensed to men . . . through the merits of Christ”
12) ” the mediation of Christ alone is absolutely necessary”
13) “Jesus . . .  has supreme dominion over all, and also over Mary”
14) “a mediator, . . . his Son Jesus, who can obtain for thee all that thou desirest.”
15) “He has given thee Jesus for a mediator; and what is there that such a son cannot obtain from the Father?”
16) “Jesus . . . having satisfied divine justice for them [our sins] by his death, he has already effaced them from your souls”

I commented after this list:

Does this sound like — as Len believes — the Catholic Church places Mary “above God,” or that she “can manipulate God,” or “can get things for Catholics from God that Jesus can’t”? Hardly. The truth of the matter is plain to see. Len has gotten his facts wrong. He may believe — based on his own Protestant theological and hermeneutical presuppositions (themselves not above all critique) — that the notion of Mediatrix is thoroughly unbiblical, and in fact, untrue, but he can’t prove that the Catholic system teaches it in such a way that God is lowered and Mary raised to a goddess-like status. That simply is not true, . . .

I then proceeded to document more such statements from St. Alphonsus:

“Either pity me,” will I say with the devout St. Anselm, “O my Jesus, and forgive me, and do thou pity me, my Mother Mary, by interceding for me” . . . my Jesus, forgive me; My Mother Mary, help me.  (p. 79)To understand why the holy Church makes us call Mary our life, we must know, that as the soul gives life to the body, so does divine grace give life to the soul; for a soul without grace has the name of being alive but is in truth dead, as it was said of one in the Apocalypse, Thou hast the name of being alive, and thou art dead. [Rev 3:1] Mary, then, in obtaining this grace for sinners by her intercession, thus restores them to life. (p. 80)

Most certainly God will not condemn those sinners who have recourse to Mary, and for whom she prays, since he himself commended them to her as her children. (p. 76)

. . . in us she beholds that which has been purchased at the price of the death of Jesus Christ . . . Mary well knows that her Son came into the world only to save us poor creatures . . . therefore Mary loves and protects them all. (pp. 60-61)

Thou, after God, must be my hope, my refuge, my love in this valley of tears. (pp. 55-56)

St. Augustine declares that “as she then co-operated by her love in the birth of the faithful to the life of grace, she became the spiritual Mother of all who are members of the one Head, Christ Jesus.” (p. 49)

Jesus our Redeemer, with an excess of mercy and love, came to restore this life by his own death on the cross . . . by reconciling us with God he made himself the Father of souls in the law of grace . . . (p. 47)

Whoever places his confidence in a creature independently of God, he certainly is cursed by God; for God is the only source and dispenser of every good, and the creature without God is nothing, and can give nothing. But if our Lord has so disposed it, . . . that all graces should pass through Mary as by a channel of mercy, we not only can but ought to assert that she, by whose means we receive the divine graces, is truly our hope. (p. 174)

. . . not as if Mary was more powerful than her Son to save us, for we know that Jesus Christ is our only Saviour, and that he alone by his merits has obtained and obtains salvation for us . . . (p. 137)

The Eternal Word came from heaven on earth to seek for lost sheep, and to save them he became thy Son. And when one of them goes to thee to find Jesus, wilt thou despise it? The price of my salvation is already paid; my Saviour has already shed his blood, which suffices to save an infinity of worlds. This blood has only to be applied even to such a one as I am. And that is thy office, O Blessed Virgin. (pp. 140-141)

No one denies that Jesus Christ is our only mediator of justice, and that he by his merits has obtained our reconciliation with God . . . St. Bernard says, “Let us not imagine that we obscure the glory of the Son by the great praise we lavish on the mother; for the more she is honored, the greater is the glory of her Son.” (p. 153)

St. Bonaventure: “As the moon, which stands between the sun and the earth, transmits to this latter whatever it receives from the formerso does Mary pour out upon us who are in this world the heavenly graces that she receives from the divine sun of justice” . . . it is our Lord, as in the head, from which the vital spirits (that is, divine help to obtain eternal salvation) flow into us, who are the members of the mystical body . . . (pp. 159-160)God has enriched thee with so great power . . . from all eternity God had determined by another decree that nothing that she asked should ever be refused to the divine Mother. (pp. 183-184)

The angelical Doctor St. Thomas [Aquinas] says [Summa Theologica 2. 2. q. 25, a.1, ad. 3], that we can place our hope in a person in two ways: as a principal cause, and as a mediate one. Those who hope for a favor from a king, hope it from him as lord; they hope for it from his minister or favorite as an intercessor. If the favor is granted, it comes primarily from the king, but it comes through the instrumentality of his favorite; and in this case he who seeks the favor is right in calling the intercessor his hope. The King of Heaven, being infinite goodness, desires in the highest degree to enrich us with his graces; but because confidence is requisite on our part, and in order to increase it in us, he has given us his own Mother to be our mother and advocate, and to her he has given all power to help us; and therefore he wills that we should repose our hope of salvation and of every blessing in her. Those who put their hopes in creatures alone, independently of God, as sinners do, and in order to obtain the friendship and favor of a man, fear not to outrage his divine Majesty, are most certainly cursed by God, as the prophet Jeremias says. (pp. 109-110; cf. p. 220)

. . . thy son Jesus Christ . . . has willed that thou also shouldst interest thyself with him, in order to obtain divine mercies for us. He has decreed that thy prayers should aid our salvation, and has made them so efficacious that they obtain all that they ask. To thee therefore, who art the hope of the miserable, do I, a wretched sinner, turn my eyes. I trust, O Lady, that in the first place through the merits of  Jesus Christ, and then through thy intercession, I shall be saved . . . “Jesus is my only hope, and after Jesus the most Blessed Virgin Mary.” (pp. 117-118)

. . . St. Augustine says, “that Mary, having merited to give flesh to the divine Word, and thus supply the price of our redemption, that we might be delivered from an eternal death; therefore is she more powerful than all others to help us to gain eternal life.”

. . . St. Bonaventure, who, considering the great benefit conferred on us by our Lord in giving us Mary for our advocate, thus addresses her: “O truly immense and admirable goodness of our God, which has been pleased to grant thee, O sovereign Mother, to us miserable sinners for our advocate, in order that thou, by thy powerful intercession, mayest obtain all that thou pleasest for us.” (pp. 188-189)

This is orthodox Catholic Mariology, from a very high authority: a Doctor of the Church. We see nothing of the “goddess” nonsense that Mr. Swan thinks is entailed in the notion of Mediatrix. Mr. Swan later cites St. Alphonsus as an example of the medieval tendency towards the notion of “Christ as Judge, Mary the Merciful” (thus my citation of him at length is quite relevant to this dialogue):

Later Graef discusses (canonized) Saint Ligouri . . .

Not to nitpick, but most saints (excepting those before the current formal selective process was developed, post-16th century) were canonized. Secondly, this saint is usually referred to as either St. Alphonsus, or St. Alphonsus de Liguori (just as Thomas Aquinas is referred to as St. Thomas or St. Thomas Aquinas, but rarely, “St. Aquinas”). And the spelling is “Liguori.”

Furthermore, Jaroslav Pelikan, in a more recent book, cited St. Anselm with regard to the relationship of Christ as Mediator and Mary as Mediatrix:

The author of the most influential theological treatise ever written about Christ as Mediator, Why God Became Man, Anselm of Canterbury at the end of the eleventh century, also wrote a treatise On the Virginal Conception and on Original Sin, as well as fervent prayers addressed to the Virgin as Mediatrix. As Anselm himself pointed out, the two treatises were closely connected, because consideration of Christ the Mediator provoked the question of “how it was that God assumed a man from the sinful mass of the human race without sin,” which was also a question about Mary. (Mary Through the Centuries, New Haven, CN: Yale University Press, 1996, 129-130)

Pelikan further comments, three pages later:

The countervailing force against what the Protestant Reformation was to construe as Mariolatry and as a diminution of the glory of Christ, the sole Mediator, was the recognition that she had been “exalted through thy omnipotent Son, for the sake of thy glorious Son, by thy blessed Son,” as Anselm put it in one of his prayers. It was, moreover, a consensus that Mary had been saved by Christ, a consensus that had a decisive effect on the eventual formulation of the Western doctrine that by her immaculate conception she had been the great exception to the universality of original sin. (Ibid., 133)

Mr. Armstrong shares the same confusion as O’Meara. For Armstrong though, Luther becomes the champion of Marian piety, correcting medieval excess. Armstrong fails to connect Luther’s autobiographical admissions of Mariolatry with his theological reform.

So Luther was an idolater . . . the fact that he was formerly ignorant of orthodox Catholic Mariology does not mean that everyone else was, and that the Church officially declared Mary as a “goddess,” etc. This was not the last time that a theologically-ignorant Catholic converted to Protestantism and then fought against the errors in his own past, as if they were doctrinal Catholic errors.

D. Armstrong’s Luther ascribes to Vatican II?

. . . I do not think Mr. Armstrong can harmonize Vatican II and Luther.

This is a non sequitur and based on more fallacious reasoning, since all I claimed in this regard was the following:

. . . he also strongly criticized excesses in Marian devotion, just as Catholics also do; particularly in Vatican II.

To suggest that Luther’s “veneration” of Mary is nothing but Catholicism properly understood is mistaken.

Of course it is, and I have never stated this (in fact, I have always expressly denied it, since I’ve always recognized that Luther ditched intercession of the saints which is part and parcel of Catholic veneration). Mr. Swan quotes my words more than once, from which he makes another of his false deductions that are becoming oddly commonplace in his writing, where I am concerned. I wrote that Luther:

. . . didn’t feel compelled to create the absolute (and quite unbiblical) silly dichotomy that characterizes present-day Reformed thought and much of Protestantism, generally-speaking — where no creature can ever be given honor, lest this immediately be an assault upon God and idolatry.

This remains true, despite Mr. Swan’s efforts to make me say something I did not say. Note his lack of coherent logic in this instance, where he is, in effect, equating the following two propositions. The first is what I actually asserted. The second is what he wrongly thinks I asserted, as “deduced” from the same words above:

1) Luther didn’t believe that no creature can ever be given honor, lest the one giving it fall into idolatry.2) Luther’s notion of veneration is essentially the same as that in Catholicism (“nothing but Catholicism”).

Read in context, my argument had much more to do with Luther’s dissimilarity with present-day Protestantism (especially the Reformed variety) than with similarity to Catholicism. I stated that he rejected the common Protestant dichotomies.

I would be curious to see how Mr. Armstrong comes down on this issue, . . . Ligouri [sic] taught it and was canonized.

St. Alphonsus’ thought must be balanced by proper consideration of the many Christocentric thoughts that he offered, as I have compiled above.

On what basis did those in the Sixteenth Century decide the orthodoxy of this doctrine?  Admitting that it is not current Catholic doctrine does not help those in previous centuries who embraced it.

By the simple fact that Jesus is Savior as well as Judge (Mary is neither, since she is not God); also by the clear biblical teaching of universal atonement (Jesus died for all men), which shows Jesus’ mercy well enough. But Calvinists like Mr. Swan reject universal atonement, so I suppose their Jesus is less merciful than the Catholic Jesus, in which case his criticisms would perhaps be better directed towards his own camp, as it persists in this error to this day.

By the Twentieth Century, one finds the Mother of God praised for her sacrifices and attributes, rather than Christ’s. The original understanding has been reversed: Mariological, not Christological. As an example, note the encyclical of Pope Pius XII from 1954. The following excerpts emphasize the greatness of the Mother of God and her role, rather than Christ:

Ad Caeli Reginam (On Proclaiming the Queenship of Mary; 11 October 1954), was (obviously) primarily about Mary (in terms of subject matter), not Jesus. It is unreasonable to expect a person to always talk about related ideas (even closely-related ideas). To use an analogy that Mr. Swan could relate to as a Protestant (Calvinist): must sanctification always be discussed when justification is discussed? No (most Protestants assert the necessity of sanctification, but consider it as a distinct category from justification). Must limited atonement always be discussed when perseverance of the saints is discussed? No, though all Calvinists believe in TULIP (the acronym of five principles that they adhere to). For that matter, must the Father always be discussed when Jesus the Son is discussed? No, of course not.

One is not obliged to always discuss everything at once. It does not follow, furthermore, that to not emphasize one thing in talking about another, proves that the first thing is disbelieved or considered unimportant. This is simply the rampant Protestant dichotomous mindset. It is not a logical deduction from the fact that Pius XII wrote an encyclical about the Queenship of Mary, where he mentioned Mary more than Jesus. What does Mr. Swan expect?: that every time a Catholic mentions Mary, he has to include a footnote: “and I must emphasize the fact that we believe Jesus is Lord and that He is far above Mary in the scheme of things”? Certain things are regarded as givens and need not always be mentioned. This is also true in science, history, philosophy, and pretty much any field of study.

Mr. Swan’s remaining section on Luther’s use of the term Mother of God suffers from gratuitous assumptions of what Catholics mean when they use the term. To consider these thoughts would require another discussion and take us far afield. My main point was simply that Luther used the term, whereas many Protestants today seem most reluctant to. And that is because Luther understood the patristic sense of the term. Mr. Swan, however, accepts the illusion that the Catholic understanding of Theotokos is somehow different from the patristic conception.

In his footnote 60, Mr. Swan cites Protestant historian, Heiko Oberman: “The warm praise which Luther has for the Mother of God throughout his life, his last sermon on 17 January 1546 included, is not based upon the great qualities of Mary herself but upon the grace granted to her.” Precisely! Of course it is all grace. This is exactly why Catholics are fond of saying things like “Hail Mary, full of grace” (Luke 1:28). The Immaculate Conception is nothing, if not total grace. How could, after all, Mary have participated in an act which was applied to her at her very conception? So the notion many Protestants have: that Catholics are attributing to Mary intrinsic qualities that somehow exist apart from the sheer grace of God, is preposterous.

It is true that we highly honor her for her obedience, but so what?, given the fact that in Hebrews 11, many saints are honored for what they did “in faith.” Does this mean that they, too, somehow did their righteous deeds apart from God’s grace? No, of course not. The same applies to Mary. All that she was, was due to God. She cooperated, but the very cooperation is entirely enabled by God. Mary’s glory is that she “did not not cooperate” (not cooperating with God was Eve’s mistake). But Mr. Swan shows only a dim understanding of all this, as indicated in ludicrous statements like:

Mary was the fourteen-year-old girl that God came to (as a gentleman) and asked her permission to save the world.

What he neglects to realize is that God knows in His providence how any person whom He chooses to involve in His plans will respond. Thus, His providence or sovereignty is not dependent upon that response, as Mr. Swan seems to imply that Catholics believe. This is a non-issue. But Calvinists cannot comprehend anyone working with God in a secondary function, entirely enabled by Him to do so. That is really the bottom line. One must understand theological presuppositions, which cause one to view Mariology in a certain way.

This is illustrated superbly in Mr. Swan’s footnote 69, which cited Vatican II:

“The Father of mercies willed that the Incarnation should be preceded by assent on the part of the predestined mother, so that just as a woman had a share in bringing about death, so also a woman should contribute to life. This is preeminently true of the Mother of Jesus, who gave to the world the Life that renews all things, and who was enriched by God with gifts appropriate to such a role.”“Rightly, therefore, the Fathers see Mary not merely as passively engaged by God, but as freely cooperating in the work of man’s salvation through faith and obedience. For, as St. Irenaeus says, she “being obedient, became the cause of salvation for herself and for the whole human race.”

Mr. Swan provided the bolded words, because, for him, this assent of Mary is a scandal. For the Calvinist, such “assent” and “free cooperation” is impossible, due to their notions of “irresistible grace” and “unconditional election.” For them, whomever God grants His grace cannot resist it. So the categories above are meaningless and/or impossible for the Calvinist. But for Catholics, assent and predestination exist together in paradox (as in the first paragraph above): God causes, but man still cooperates, and gets credit for that cooperation insofar as he could have chosen not to do so. Man is free, and he has a free will, so that he can freely follow God, not just follow because he cannot resist when God calls him.

In any event, we see how Mr. Swan’s Calvinist premises affect his reasoning concerning Mary. One must take a step back and reveal the falsehood and unbiblical nature of these Calvinist notions, but that is beyond our purview here.

6. The Immaculate Conception and the Gospel According to James
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V. The Immaculate Conception
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A. Historical Documentation

The bulk of Mr. Armstrong’s response was in regard to the Immaculate Conception. I can only speculate the reason being is similar to that of other Catholic apologists: some argue that the Immaculate Conception is part of the very gospel of Jesus Christ.

The reason was described above. Mainly, it is simply an interesting historical study. As for the gospel, this depends on how it is defined. Strictly speaking, the Bible is clear on what the gospel is, and it seems to me that Protestants (if consistent) would want to rely on the Bible for their own definition of it. I shall cite several non-Catholic reference books as to its definition:

Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, Joseph H. Thayer (Grand Rapids, Michigan: Baker Book House, 1901, 257):

The term comprises the preaching of (concerning) Jesus Christ as having suffered death on the cross to procure eternal salvation for men in the kingdom of God, but as restored to life and exalted to the right hand of God in heaven . . . it may be more briefly defined as ‘the glad tidings of salvation through Christ; the proclamation of the grace of God manifested and pledged in Christ.’ (Rom. 1:16; 10:16; 11:28; I Cor. 4:15; II Cor. 8:18; Gal. 2:2; Eph. 3:6; Phil. 1:5, etc.).

New Bible Dictionary, Ed. J.D. Douglas (Grand Rapids, Michigan: Eerdmans, 1962, 484):

The gospel is the good news that God in Jesus Christ has fulfilled His promises to Israel, and that a way of salvation has been opened to all . . .  The use of ‘Gospels’ as a designation of the first four books of the N.T. is post-biblical (2nd century A. D.).

The New International Dictionary of the Christian Church, general editor: J.D. Douglas (Grand Rapids, Michigan: Zondervan Pub. House, 1974, 424):

The message of God’s redemption in Jesus Christ, which lies at the heart of the NT and the church’s faith. In the NT it is, first, the proclamation by Jesus that the kingdom has drawn near and, then, the proclamation by His disciples that in His life, death, and resurrection the kingdom has been established and that salvation and forgiveness are offered to all who believe.

The trouble is that Mr. Swan does not accept the biblical definition of gospel (as one would expect a Protestant who goes by the formal principle of sola Scriptura to do). He wants to bring in the “man’s tradition” of Calvinism and hold that the gospel is actually not the Good News of the Redemption of Jesus Christ (see, e.g., Catechism of he Catholic Church, #571), but rather, the technical theological construct of Calvinist soteriology, or (briefly summarized), TULIP. This is simply not biblical, and it leads to absurdities, for Catholics, Orthodox, and Protestants all fully concur as to the facts recounted in the above three definitions. But since Mr. Swan falsely defines the gospel, he is led to the ludicrous position that the Catholic and Calvinist gospels are different. He has stated this in public forums:

I think you misunderstand the gospel in the protestant mind. With the sacraments in Lutheranism, they are not the way one in which one acquires righteousness for eventual salvation. Hence, it would be possible for the Lutheran to believe in a form of the “real presense” and still not deny the gospel, like Rome does. . . . One is saved by faith alone.

CARM
#51395, “RE: Quick reply”
In response to Reply #16
Edited on Fri Jun-13-03 02:13 AM by TertiumQuid
(http://new.carmforums.org/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=107&topic_id=51307&mesg_id=51307&page=9&topic_page=2)

. . . Now in my case, I knowingly teach a different gospel than Rome.

CARM
TertiumQuid Sat Jun-14-03 06:50 AM
#51622, “RE: Oh Yes I Do”
In response to Reply #22

I know what Rome teaches, and I deliberately undermine Rome by “preaching” a different gospel than the Roman Catholic Church.

CARM
TertiumQuid Sat Jun-14-03 01:00 PM
#51656, “RE: TQ. I have little faith in anyone’s”
In response to Reply #33
(http://new.carmforums.org/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=107&topic_id=51307&mesg_id=51307&page=9&topic_page=4)

What Mr. Armstrong fails to realize is that my paper was not a complete discussion of the development of the dogma of the Immaculate Conception.

This again illustrates that Mr. Swan fails to comprehend that my paper — while a reply to his in large part — is its own entity, where I explore issues that I find to be of interest. I am not bound to what Mr. Swan desires for me to research and write, according to his own criteria of the moment.

Mr. Swan proceeds to make a rather silly, non sequitur argument, writing, “Mr. Armstrong entertains tangents,” and “I can only speculate his intention was an attempt to make me look incompetent,” and “Armstrong needs to defend his Church’s dogma: the 1854 Immaculate Conception.”  Ironically, then, in his attempt to criticize me for engaging “tangents,” and straying from the subject of his paper, he implies that I ought to do a full-scale defense of the Catholic dogma of the Immaculate Conception (which indeed I have done elsewhere, in several papers and book chapters), as if that had anything to do with the purely historical question of what Luther believed with regard to Mary and (particularly) the Immaculate Conception.

I have no desire to debate this issue. The theological development of the Immaculate Conception is far removed from the topic of my paper.

Nor do I; not in this context. So, alas, Mr. Swan and I agree on something. He then excuses me  “for raising a number of irrelevant tangents and straw men.” Likewise, I return this gracious thoughtfulness by excusing him for his non sequiturs, misunderstanding as to the purpose and scope of my paper, and his straw men of what he thinks are Catholic positions.

. . . my paper had only a brief discussion of Luther’s Position on the Immaculate Conception. My primary point was to note Luther shifted the emphasis from the mother to the Messiah.

That’s not at issue between us; however, it doesn’t necessarily follow from this that he thereby denied that Mary was immaculately conceived. The majority of scholars who have studied that particular issue affirmed that he did believe this his entire life. And that was the central subject of my paper.

Rather than discussing Mary’s sinlessness, Luther insisted Christ’s sinlessness was due entirely to the miraculous work of the Holy Spirit during conception.

If indeed Luther stated this, it is virtually blasphemous. Jesus’ sinlessness is not “due entirely” to His Virgin Birth but “due entirely” to the fact that He is God and thus incapable of sinning, by nature. The contrary assertion is quasi-Nestorianism.

I hold that Luther abandoned this earlier position [on the Immaculate Conception].

Mr. Swan can hold any position he likes, but I showed in my previous paper how many Protestant scholars do not take this view. I am inclined to go with the scholars, rather than with Mr. Swan, just as I would give such scholarly consensus (or near-consensus) much more weight than my own opinion.

[Dave (4-29-24: I later modify my position on this, and agree that Luther did change is opinion to an extent later in life. See:

Luther & Mary’s Immaculate Conception: Lutheran Scholars’ Opinions [9-30-10]
*
Luther & the Immaculate Conception: More Non-Catholic Historians & Scholars [9-30-10]
*
Luther & the “Immaculate Purification” of Mary [10-2-10]

It remains true, however — as I contended and documented –, that many Lutheran scholars hold that he did not do so]

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Photo credit: Portrait of Martin Luther (1528), by Lucas Cranach the Elder (1472-1553) [public domain / Wikimedia Commons]

Summary: Part one of a dialogue with anti-Catholic Reformed apologist & polemicist James Swan, about Protestant founder Martin Luther’s view of the Blessed Virgin Mary.

2024-03-19T14:04:23-04:00

Dr. Gavin Ortlund is a Reformed Baptist author, speaker, pastor, scholar, and apologist for the Christian faith. He has a Ph.D. from Fuller Theological Seminary in historical theology, and an M.Div from Covenant Theological Seminary. Gavin is the author of seven books as well as numerous academic and popular articles. For a list of publications, see his CV. He runs the very popular YouTube channel Truth Unites, which seeks to provide an “irenic” voice on theology, apologetics, and the Christian life. See also his website, Truth Unites and his blog.

In my opinion, he is currently the best and most influential popular-level Protestant apologist, who (especially) interacts with and offers thoughtful critiques of Catholic positions, from a refreshing ecumenical (not anti-Catholic), but nevertheless solidly Protestant perspective. That’s what I want to interact with, so I have issued many replies to Gavin and will continue to do so. I use RSV for all Bible passages unless otherwise specified.

All of my replies to Gavin are collected on the top of my Calvinism & General Protestantism web page in the section, “Replies to Reformed Baptist Gavin Ortlund.” Gavin’s words will be in blue.

This is my 28th reply to his material.

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I am responding to a video from Gavin in debate with Orthodox priest, Fr. Stephen de Young on images and the early Church’s view of them. A one-minute and eleven seconds  portion of it was tweeted on Protestant Collin Brook’s page on March 16th. As I write this (10:16 PM ET on 3-17-24), the excerpt has 110,000 views, 260 likes, and 59 retweets. Baptist apologist James White retweeted it also on 3-16-24. Collin commented, “This part of [the] recent dialogue was savagery.” It will no longer be (if it ever was: meaning that Gavin supposedly mightily prevailed) after I get through with it.

All the evidence that we have favors the view that any sort of cultic use of images was resoundingly rejected by Christians for the first 500 years of Church history . . . it’s everybody; it’s everywhere. It’s resounding, it’s clear, it’s bright. . . . If there’s anything we know about the early Church, we know that’s not what was happening. That is as clear as anything about the early Church. Can you name any advocate of icon veneration before 500 AD, . . . [who] says anything remotely positive about it?

[NOTE: if you want to actually see the context and full discussion on icon veneration, rather than simply this supposedly “gotcha!” soundbite, the entire video is called “Sola Scriptura or Holy Tradition? w/ Dr. Gavin Ortlund And Fr. Stephen De Young” (3-15-24 on The Transfigured Life channel. The portion on icons runs from 1:06:12-1:34:35. So it was over 28 minutes in length, from which Collin Brooks chose 71 seconds (about 4.2% of the whole), pronouncing it “savagery.”]

Once again we observe the spectacle of a Protestant apologist making a universal negative claim. Gavin isn’t claiming that the evidence is scanty or a small minority etc. He implies that no one believed it for 500 years. So, to refute his insinuation, all one has to do is come up with one example. But we have many more than that:

Catholic Encyclopedia (“Veneration of Images”): That Christians from the very beginning adorned their catacombs with paintings of Christ, of the saints, of scenes from the Bible and allegorical groups is too obvious and too well known for it to be necessary to insist upon the fact. The catacombs are the cradle of all Christian art. Since their discovery in the sixteenth century — on 31 May, 1578, an accident revealed part of the catacomb in the Via Salaria — and the investigation of their contents that has gone on steadily ever since, we are able to reconstruct an exact idea of the paintings that adorned them. That the first Christians had any sort of prejudice against images, pictures, or statues is a myth (defended amongst others by Erasmus) that has been abundantly dispelled by all students of Christian archaeology. The idea that they must have feared the danger of idolatry among their new converts is disproved in the simplest way by the pictures even statues, that remain from the first centuries. . . . The Christian sarcophagi were ornamented with indifferent or symbolic designs — palms, peacocks, vines, with the chi-rho monogram (long before Constantine), with bas-reliefs of Christ as the Good Shepherd, or seated between figures of saints, and sometimes, as in the famous one of Julius Bassus with elaborate scenes from the New Testament. And the catacombs were covered with paintings. . . .

Scenes from the New Testament are very common too, the Nativity and arrival of the Wise Men, our Lord’s baptism, the miracle of the loaves and fishes, the marriage feast at Cana, Lazarus, and Christ teaching the Apostles. There are also purely typical figures, the woman praying with uplifted hands representing the Church, harts drinking from a fountain that springs from a chi-rho monogram, and sheep. And there are especially pictures of Christ as the Good Shepherd, as lawgiver, as a child in His mother’s arms, of His head alone in a circle, of our Lady alone, of St. Peter and St. Paul — pictures that are not scenes of historic events, but, like the statues in our modern churches, just memorials of Christ and His saints. . . .

In the catacombs there is little that can be described as sculpture; there are few statues for a very simple reason. Statues are much more difficult to make, and cost much more than wall-paintings. But there was no principle against them. Eusebius describes very ancient statues at Caesarea Philippi representing Christ and the woman He healed there (Church History VII.18; Matthew 9:20-2). The earliest sarcophagi had bas-reliefs. As soon as the Church came out of the catacombs, became richer, had no fear of persecution, the same people who had painted their caves began to make statues of the same subjects. The famous statue of the Good Shepherd in the Lateran Museum was made as early as the beginning of the third century, the statues of Hippolytus and of St. Peter date from the end of the same century. The principle was quite simple. The first Christians were accustomed to see statues of emperors, of pagan gods and heroes, as well as pagan wall-paintings. So they made paintings of their religion, and, as soon as they could afford them, statues of their Lord and of their heroes, without the remotest fear or suspicion of idolatry.

The idea that the Church of the first centuries was in any way prejudiced against pictures and statues is the most impossible fiction. After Constantine (306-37) there was of course an enormous development of every kind. Instead of burrowing catacombs Christians began to build splendid basilicas. They adorned them with costly mosaics, carving, and statues. But there was no new principle. The mosaics represented more artistically and richly the motives that had been painted on the walls of the old caves, the larger statues continue the tradition begun by carved sarcophagi and little lead and glass ornaments. From that time to the Iconoclast Persecution holy images are in possession all over the Christian world. St. Ambrose (d. 397) describes in a letter how St. Paul appeared to him one night, and he recognized him by the likeness to his pictures (Ep. ii, in P.L., XVII, 821). St. Augustine (d. 430) refers several times to pictures of our Lord and the saints in churches (e.g. “De cons. Evang.”, x in P.L., XXXIV, 1049; Reply to Faustus XXII.73); he says that some people even adore them (“De mor. eccl. cath.”, xxxiv, P.L., XXXII, 1342). St. Jerome (d. 420) also writes of pictures of the Apostles as well-known ornaments of churches (In Ionam, iv). St. Paulinus of Nola (d. 431) paid for mosaics representing Biblical scenes and saints in the churches of his city, and then wrote a poem describing them (P.L., LXI, 884). Gregory of Tours (d. 594) says that a Frankish lady, who built a church of St. Stephen, showed the artists who painted its walls how they should represent the saints out of a book (Hist. Franc., II, 17, P.L., LXXI, 215). In the East St. Basil (d. 379), preaching about St. Barlaam, calls upon painters to do the saint more honour by making pictures of him than he himself can do by words (“Or. in S. Barlaam”, in P.G., XXXI). St. Nilus in the fifth century blames a friend for wishing to decorate a church with profane ornaments, and exhorts him to replace these by scenes from Scripture (Epist. IV, 56). St. Cyril of Alexandria (d. 444) was so great a defender of icons that his opponents accused him of idolatry (for all this see Schwarzlose, “Der Bilderstreit” i, 3-15). . . .

Although representations of the Crucifixion do not occur till later, the cross, as the symbol of Christianity, dates from the very beginning. Justin Martyr (d. 165) describes it in a way that already implies its use as a symbol (Dialogue with Trypho 91). He says that the cross is providentially represented in every kind of natural object: the sails of a ship, a plough, tools, even the human body (Apol. I, 55). According to Tertullian (d. about 240), Christians were known as “worshippers of the cross” (Apol., xv). Both simple crosses and the chi-rho monogram are common ornaments of catacombs; combined with palm branches, lambs and other symbols they form an obvious symbol of Christ. After Constantine the cross, made splendid with gold and gems, was set up triumphantly as the standard of the conquering Faith. A late catacomb painting represents a cross richly jewelled and adorned with flowers. Constantine’s Labarum at the battle of the Milvian Bridge (312), and the story of the finding of the True Cross by St. Helen, gave a fresh impulse to its worship. It appears (without a figure) above the image of Christ in the apsidal mosaic of St. Pudentiana at Rome, in His nimbus constantly, in some prominent place on an altar or throne (as the symbol of Christ), in nearly all mosaics above the apse or in the chief place of the first basilicas (St. Paul at Rome, ibid., 183, St. Vitalis at Ravenna). In Galla Placidia’s chapel at Ravenna Christ (as the Good Shepherd with His sheep) holds a great cross in His left hand. The cross had a special place as an object of worship. It was the chief outward sign of the Faith, was treated with more reverence than any picture “worship of the cross” (staurolatreia) was a special thing distinct from image-worship, so that we find the milder Iconoclasts in after years making an exception for the cross, still treating it with reverence, while they destroyed pictures. A common argument of the imageworshippers to their opponents was that since the latter too worshipped the cross they were inconsistent in refusing to worship other images (see ICONOCLASM). . . .

The veneration of images

Distinct from the admission of images is the question of the way they are treated. What signs of reverence, if any, did the first Christians give to the images in their catacombs and churches? For the first period we have no information. There are so few references to images at all in the earliest Christian literature that we should hardly have suspected their ubiquitous presence were they not actually there in the catacombs as the most convincing argument. But these catacomb paintings tell us nothing about how they were treated. We may take it for granted, on the one hand, that the first Christians understood quite well that paintings may not have any share in the adoration due to God alone. Their monotheism, their insistence on the fact that they serve only one almighty unseen God, their horror of the idolatry of their neighbours, the torture and death that their martyrs suffered rather than lay a grain of incense before the statue of the emperor’s numen are enough to convince us that they were not setting up rows of idols of their own. On the other hand, the place of honour they give to their symbols and pictures, the care with which they decorate them argue that they treated representations of their most sacred beliefs with at least decent reverence. It is from this reverence that the whole tradition of venerating holy images gradually and naturally developed. After the time of Constantine it is still mainly by conjecture that we are able to deduce the way these images were treated. The etiquette of the Byzantine court gradually evolved elaborate forms of respect, not only for the person of Ceesar but even for his statues and symbols. Philostorgius (who was an Iconoclast long before the eighth century) says that in the fourth century the Christian Roman citizens in the East offered gifts, incense, and even prayers, to the statues of the emperor (Hist. eccl., II, 17). It would be natural that people who bowed to, kissed, incensed the imperial eagles and images of Caesar (with no suspicion of anything like idolatry), who paid elaborate reverence to an empty throne as his symbol, should give the same signs to the cross, the images of Christ, and the altar. So in the first Byzantine centuries there grew up traditions of respect that gradually became fixed, as does all ceremonial.

Hippolytus: And they make counterfeit images of Christ, alleging that these were in existence at the time (during which our Lord was on earth, and that they were fashioned) by Pilate. (The Refutation of All Heresies, 7.20)

Basil the Great: Worshipping as we do God of God, we both confess the distinction of the Persons, and at the same time abide by the Monarchy. We do not fritter away the theology in a divided plurality, because one Form, so to say, united in the invariableness of the Godhead, is beheld in God the Father, and in God the Only begotten. For the Son is in the Father and the Father in the Son; since such as is the latter, such is the former, and such as is the former, such is the latter; and herein is the Unity. So that according to the distinction of Persons, both are one and one, and according to the community of Nature, one. How, then, if one and one, are there not two Gods? Because we speak of a king, and of the king’s image, and not of two kings. The majesty is not cloven in two, nor the glory divided. The sovereignty and authority over us is one, and so the doxology ascribed by us is not plural but one; because the honour paid to the image passes on to the prototype. Now what in the one case the image is by reason of imitation, that in the other case the Son is by nature; and as in works of art the likeness is dependent on the form, so in the case of the divine and uncompounded nature the union consists in the communion of the Godhead.  (The Holy Spirit, ch. 18, sec. 45)

Methodius of Olympus (d. c. 311): The images of God’s angels, which are fashioned of gold, the principalities and powers, we make to His honour and glory. (From the Discourse on the Resurrection, Part 2)

John Chrysostom: And it became so frequent that this name [of St. Meletios] echoed around from every direction everywhere both in side streets and in the marketplace and in fields and on highways. But you didn’t experience so much just at the name, but even at the depiction of his body. At least, what you did with names, this you practiced, too, in the case of that man’s image. For truly, many carved that holy image on finger rings and on seals and on cups and on bedroom walls and all over the place so that one didn’t just hear that holy name, but also saw the depiction of his body all over the place and had a double consolation for his loss. (Homily in Praise of Saint Meletios)

Eusebius: For there stands upon an elevated stone, by the gates of her house, a brazen image of a woman kneeling, with her hands stretched out, as if she were praying. Opposite this is another upright image of a man, made of the same material, clothed decently in a double cloak, and extending his hand toward the woman. At his feet, beside the statue itself, is a certain strange plant, which climbs up to the hem of the brazen cloak, and is a remedy for all kinds of diseases. They say that this statue is an image of Jesus. It has remained to our day, so that we ourselves also saw it when we were staying in the city. Nor is it strange that those of the Gentiles who, of old, were benefited by our Savior, should have done such things, since we have learned also that the likenesses of his apostles Paul and Peter, and of Christ himself, are preserved in paintings, the ancients being accustomed, as it is likely, according to a habit of the Gentiles, to pay this kind of honor indiscriminately to those regarded by them as deliverers. (Church History, 7.18)

Theodoret: It is said that the man [St. Symeon] became so celebrated in the great city of Rome that at the entrance of all the workshops men have set up small representations of him, to provide thereby some protection and safety for themselves. (Life of St. Symeon the Stylite, 11)

Philip Schaff’s Summary: [T]he prejudices of the ante-Nicene period against images in painting or sculpture continued alive, through fear of approach to pagan idolatry, or of lowering Christianity into the province of sense. But generally the hostility was directed only against images of Christ; and from it, as Neander justly observes, we are by no means to infer the rejection of all representations of religious subjects; for images of Christ encounter objections peculiar to themselves. . . .

The prevalent spirit of the age already very decidedly favored this material representation as a powerful help to virtue and devotion, especially for the uneducated classes, whence the use of images, in fact, mainly proceeded. (History of the Christian Church, Vol. III: Nicene and Post-Nicene Christianity, New York: Scribner’s, 5th edition, 1910, reprinted by Eerdmans, Grand Rapids, Michigan, 1974, 565, 566-567)

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Now, I’d like to make a comparison between Catholic and Protestant patristic support. The whole point of Gavin’s claim in the video above is to make out that (paraphrasing) “here is this belief held by both Catholics and Orthodox that has absolutely no support from Church fathers in the first 500 years of the Church. How can that be?!” He assumes that this is a strong argument against us. In other words, we can say that there ought to be support in the fathers for any given theological belief that a Christian holds.

We agree with the previous sentence. I think I showed above that evidence for widespread use and veneration of images in the patristic era is not totally lacking. It’s surely and obviously less than that for many other doctrines, but it’s not nonexistent (and that was his claim, which is now decisively refuted), and there is also a line of argument — that is present but not developed in my defense — for why it is less prevalent.

Let’s assume for a moment — for the sake of argument — that it was totally absent, as Gavin claimed (“Can you name any advocate of icon veneration before 500 AD, . . . [who] says anything remotely positive about it?”). Even if that were actually true, the degree of patristic support for the Protestant is much, much less than it is for Catholicism. Veneration of images; even bowing before them, is also an explicit teaching of Holy Scripture, as I have massively demonstrated. See the section, “Veneration of Icons and Images (Including of God) / Statues / Holy Objects / Holy Days” on my Saints, Purgatory, & Penance web page.

But if we look at, for example, one of the two “pillars” of the “Protestant Reformation”: sola fide (faith alone), we find three well-known Protestant apologists and historians making summary statements about its utter lack of support among the Church fathers, and even up until the 16th century when Luther’s successor Philip Melanchthon pulled it out of a hat. First, I cite the late Protestant apologist Norman Geisler (who influenced my own apologetics outlook in many ways):

For Augustine, justification included both the beginnings of one’s righteousness before God and its subsequent perfection — the event and the process. What later became the Reformation concept of ‘sanctification’ then is effectively subsumed under the aegis of justification. Although he believed that God initiated the salvation process, it is incorrect to say that Augustine held to the concept of ‘forensic’ justification. This understanding of justification is a later development of the Reformation . . .

Before Luther, the standard Augustinian position on justification stressed intrinsic justification. Intrinsic justification argues that the believer is made righteous by God’s grace, as compared to extrinsic justification, by which a sinner is forensically declared righteous (at best, a subterranean strain in pre-Reformation Christendom). With Luther the situation changed dramatically . . .

. . . one can be saved without believing that imputed righteousness (or forensic justification) is an essential part of the true gospel. Otherwise, few people were saved between the time of the apostle Paul and the Reformation, since scarcely anyone taught imputed righteousness (or forensic justification) during that period! . . . . . (Roman Catholics and Evangelicals: Agreements and Differences, with Ralph E. MacKenzie, Grand Rapids, Michigan: Baker Book House, 1995, 502, 85, 222; my italics and bolding)

The renowned Protestant scholar Alister McGrath makes virtually the same point:

Whereas Augustine taught that the sinner is made righteous in justification, Melanchthon taught that he is counted as righteous or pronounced to be righteous. For Augustine, ‘justifying righteousness’ is imparted; for Melanchthon, it is imputed in the sense of being declared or pronounced to be righteous. Melanchthon drew a sharp distinction between the event of being declared righteous and the process of being made righteous, designating the former ‘justification’ and the latter ‘sanctification’ or ‘regeneration.’ For Augustine, these were simply different aspects of the same thing . . .

The importance of this development lies in the fact that it marks complete break with the teaching of the church up to that point. From the time of Augustine onwards, justification had always been understood to refer to both the event of being declared righteous and the process of being made righteous. . . .

The Council of Trent . . . reaffirmed the views of Augustine on the nature of justification . . . the concept of forensic justification actually represents a development in Luther’s thought . . . .

Trent maintained the medieval tradition, stretching back to Augustine, which saw justification as comprising both an event and a process . . . (Reformation Thought: An Introduction, 2nd edition, Grand Rapids, Michigan: Baker Book House, 1993, 108-109, 115; my italics and bolding)

And the great Protestant Church historian Philip Schaff concurred:

If any one expects to find in this period [100-325], or in any of the church fathers, Augustin himself not excepted, the Protestant doctrine of justification by faith alone, . . . he will be greatly disappointed . . . Paul’s doctrine of justification, except perhaps in Clement of Rome, who joins it with the doctrine of James, is left very much out of view, and awaits the age of the Reformation to be more thoroughly established and understood. (Philip Schaff, History of the Christian Church, Vol. 2, 588-589)

So two of the three are essentially saying that there is no support whatsoever for “faith alone” in the entire patristic period and indeed all the way up to even past Luther, to Melanchthon, when the novel innovation took place (Schaff’s statement addresses the period up to 325 AD). And this is — all agree — a central teaching, having to do with soteriology (the theology of salvation); how one is saved. If the alleged (but not actual) lack of patristic support for veneration of images is supposedly such a “victory” for Protestantism, why is not the actual lack of any patristic support for sola fide a strike against the Protestant worldview?

Goose and gander . . . I’ve done a lot less work on the soteriology of the Church fathers than I have about their rule of faith, but I plan on doing much more. For now, see what I have in the “Salvation / Justification / “Faith Alone” / Soteriology” section of my Fathers of the Church web page. Even so, I still have seventeen articles in that section, with many more to come. Stay tuned!

Moreover, I contend that interrelated notions of “faith alone” / extrinsic, imputed justification / the formal separation of justification and sanctification / denial of meritorious works are massively contradicted in the Bible as well, and aspects that are supported are those in which Catholics wholeheartedly agree with Protestants (initial monergistic justification, a denial of works-salvation or Pelagianism, sola gratia, etc.). See my debate with Brazilian Calvinist Francisco Tourinho on the topic, which is to be made into a book in Portugese, and is available for free on my blog: Justification: A Catholic Perspective (2023). See also scores of articles in the first (top) section of my Salvation, Justification, & “Faith Alone” web page.

The other self-described “pillar” of the Protestant Revolt is sola Scriptura. Protestants try very hard, but they have not, in my opinion (and I have studied this for many thousands of hours) established that any Church father actually held this viewpoint. I myself have documented how some 40 or so major Church fathers (yes, including the Protestant “hero” St. Augustine) in fact held views that expressly contradict sola Scriptura (see the “Bible / Tradition / Sola Scriptura / Perspicuity / Rule of Faith” section of my Fathers of the Church web page).

And if anyone wants to see how strong the alleged support for this novel doctrine is in Holy Scripture, well, I wrote an entire book demonstrating that there is none, entitled, 100 Biblical Arguments Against Sola Scriptura (2012). I also took on two men who are considered the best historical defenders of the false doctrine, in my book, Pillars of Sola Scriptura: Replies to Whitaker, Goode, & Biblical “Proofs” for “Bible Alone” (2012), and I’ve written more about this topic than anything else, among my 4,500+ articles. See sections III-V on my Bible, Tradition, Canon, & “Sola Scriptura” web page).

Thus, I strongly contend (and I can back it up) that both Protestant “pillars” have neither patristic nor biblical support. Perhaps this is why a very good Protestant apologist like Gavin Ortlund spends time making the now-falsified claim that there is no patristic evidence whatsoever for veneration of images, rather than trying to argue against the true and profound lack of same for the two “pillars” of the Protestant Reformation.

It’s a failed attempt, in other words, to “turn the tables” regarding the issue of patristic support (both sides claiming to have far more than the other). The famous statement of St. John Henry Cardinal Newman (that drives Protestants crazy) remains as true as ever: “to be deep in history is to cease to be a Protestant.” I will do my best to, in effect, defend it by taking on specific instances of Protestants trying hard (E for effort and zeal!) but failing to show that his maxim is untrue.

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Related Reading

Responding to Gavin Ortlund on Icon Veneration (Suan Sonna, 2023) [excellent, thorough 142-page rebuttal]

See Gavin’s brief response on my Facebook page.

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Photo credit: sacred images on the walls of the 3rd-century Dura-Europos church in Syria [Summa Apologia]

Summary: Gavin Ortlund challenged: “Can you name any advocate of icon veneration before 500 AD?” I provide several examples from Church fathers and the catacombs.

2024-03-05T13:22:02-04:00

Incl. Bible-Tradition Relationship; Fathers & Conciliar Infallibility; Popes & Early Councils; Perspicuity (Luther vs. Erasmus); Communion in One Kind; “Late” & Supposedly Unbiblical Dogmas

Rev. Dr. Jordan B. Cooper is a Lutheran pastor, adjunct professor of Systematic Theology, Executive Director of the popular Just & Sinner YouTube channel, and the President of the American Lutheran Theological Seminary (which holds to a doctrinally traditional Lutheranism, similar to the Lutheran Church – Missouri Synod). He has authored several books, as well as theological articles in a variety of publications. All my Bible citations are from RSV, unless otherwise indicated. Jordan’s words will be in blue.

This is my 7th reply to Jordan (many more to come, because I want to interact with the best, most informed Protestant opponents). All of these respectful critiques can be found in the “Replies to Lutheran Theologian / Apologist Jordan Cooper” section on the top of my Lutheranism web page.

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This is a response to the first 40 minutes of Jordan’s YouTube video, Sola Scriptura: Scripture Alone (The Five Solas) (2-24-24).

13:54 what we see is that the earliest Christians do use language of tradition but when they define tradition, they’re defining tradition really as things that are also clearly taught within the word of God, not not some kind of separate dogma or separate theological claims that have no basis in the word of God.

There is a middle position (which is the Catholic one). The fathers, I contend, adhered to a three-legged-stool rule of faith: Bible / Tradition / Church, in which all operate in non-contradictory harmony with each other. Martin Luther appeared to accept something like this:

I do enough if I prove that it is not contrary to God’s Word, but consistent with Scripture. (That These Words of Christ, This Is My Body, etc., Still Stand Firm Against the Fanatics, March 1527, Luther’s Works, vol. 37)

In almost all cases, Scripture can be brought to bear. But in a few instances, beliefs that are not explicit in Scripture, such as, for example, infant baptism, were accepted as true on the basis of the authority of the Church and apostolic tradition and succession (in complete opposition to sola Scriptura). This was St. Augustine’s view, and he also wrote more generally:

[T]here are many things which are observed by the whole Church, and therefore are fairly held to have been enjoined by the apostles, which yet are not mentioned in their writings. (On Baptism, v, 23, 31)

Likewise, Luther wrote about infant baptism:

We, however, are certain enough, because it [infant baptism] is nowhere contrary to Scripture, but is rather in accord with Scripture. (Concerning Rebaptism, Jan. 1528, Luther’s Works, vol. 40)

[C]hild baptism derives from the apostles and has been practiced since the days of the apostles. . . . It came to me by tradition and I was persuaded by no word of Scripture that it was wrong. . . . Baptism did not originate with us, but with the apostles and we should not discard or alter what cannot be discarded or altered on clear scriptural authority. . . . Were child baptism now wrong God would certainly not have permitted it to continue so long, nor let it become so universally and thoroughly established in all Christendom, but it would sometime have gone down in disgrace. . . . Just as God has established that Christians in all the world have accepted the Bible as Bible, the Lord’s Prayer as Lord’s Prayer, and faith of a child as faith, so also he has established child baptism and kept it from being rejected . . . You say, this does not prove that child baptism is certain. For there is no passage in Scripture for it. My answer: that is true. From Scripture we cannot clearly conclude that you could establish child baptism as a practice among the first Christians after the apostles. But you can well conclude that in our day no one may reject or neglect the practice of child baptism which has so long a tradition, since God actually not only has permitted it, but from the beginning so ordered, that it has not yet disappeared. (Ibid.)

Here, Luther accepts infant baptism based on ancient tradition, and states outright that “there is no passage in Scripture for it.” Therefore, he has accepted a principle utterly contrary to sola Scriptura; namely, that something can be regarded as infallibly true, not on the basis of Scripture, but rather, apostolic tradition. Sola Scriptura holds that only Scripture is such an infallible authority. Augustine and Luther in these excerpts also contradict Jordan’s claim above. Luther felt so strongly about infant baptism, that he and his successor Philip Melanchthon consented to executing Anabaptists for denying it (a doctrine and practice not even explicitly biblical).

17:10 Read Athanasius’s works against the Arians; he is just expositing Scripture. He’s looking at the text trying to explain the text, trying to demonstrate how the text shows his point.

Of course, the Bible will be his primary argument. No one is denying that in the first place. Refuting Jehovah’s Witnesses (modern-day Arians) was, in fact, my first major apologetics endeavor, back in 1981-1984 (the product of that research is on my blog today). I argued against them almost always from Scripture. I was a Protestant then. Now that I am Catholic I would do the same thing if I set out to refute them.  This doesn’t prove that Athanasius had a Protestant rule of faith (nor that I do now; I argue from Scripture virtually every day in my apologetics writing). St. Athanasius also accepted the infallible authority of ecumenical councils, contrary to sola Scriptura:

. . . the Synod which was held at Nicæa. For the Faith there confessed by the Fathers according to the divine Scriptures is enough by itself at once to overthrow all impiety, and to establish the religious belief in Christ. . . . a monument of victory over all heresy, but especially the Arian, . . . (Letter #59 to Epictetus, 1)

17:59  the foundation of the argument is always the text of Scripture and other figures or authorities are used secondarily.

Largely, yes, but not always (and Jordan used the word “always” and attempted to make a universal claim. St. Basil the Great thought that the Nicene Council was infallible, and arguably inspired as well:

. . . you should confess the faith put forth by our Fathers once assembled at Nicæa, that you should not omit any one of its propositions, but bear in mind that the three hundred and eighteen who met together without strife did not speak without the operation of the Holy Ghost, . . .  (Letter #114 to Cyriacus, at Tarsus)

St. Gregory Nazianzen appeared to believe the same:

I never have and never can honour anything above the Nicene Faith, that of the Holy Fathers who met there to destroy the Arian heresy; but am, and by God’s help ever will be, of that faith; . . . (Letter #102: Second to Cledonius the Priest, Against Apollinarius)

As did St. Cyril of Alexandria:

[H]e opposes the truth and the very symbol of the Church’s Faith, which the fathers once gathered together at Nicea through the illumination of the Spirit defined; he, fearing lest any should keep whole the Faith, instructed unto the Truth by their words, endeavours to calumniate it and alters the significance of the words, . . . against the holy fathers who have decreed for us the pious definition of the Faith which we have as an anchor of the soul both sure and steadfast, as it is written. (Tomes Against Nestorius: I, 5)

. . . the holy Churches in every region under Heaven, and the venerable Fathers themselves who put forth unto us the definition of the right and undefiled Faith, viz. (the Holy Ghost speaking in them) that the Word of God was made flesh and became Man, . . .(Tomes Against Nestorius: IV, 2)

19:00 The other thing that I think really important here is . . . the question of how is it that the church looked at the councils. If you look at something like the Council of Nicaea, the question is: did the church at the time believe that the Senate of Nicaea was necessarily the final arbiter of what was actually true? . . . It’s not the understanding at the time that whatever happened in this Council was necessarily declaratively true forever because of the authority of a church Council.

My citations above regarding Nicaea, from four Church fathers, contradict Jordan’s “take.” Sola Scriptura requires a denial of the infallibility of ecumenical councils. But many Church fathers agree with the high Catholic view of such councils.

20:13 the bishop of Rome actually doesn’t have really any significant role within the Council of Nicaea at all.

A plausible case can be made that he did:

Pope Silvester and the Council of Nicaea [August 1997]

Council of Nicea: Reply to James White: Its Relationship to Pope Sylvester, Athanasius’ Views, & the Unique Preeminence of Catholic Authority. [4-2-07]

20:19 It’s not really until Pope Leo with Caledon that the bishop of Rome has any significant say within these ecumenical councils.

Constantinople, 381 [no pope and no legates]

No bishops from the west were present, nor was the Pope represented. Therefore, this was not really an ecumenical council, though due to later historical confusion and the enthusiastic acceptance by the whole Church of its strongly orthodox creed, including an explicit confession of the full divinity of the Holy Spirit, it came to be regarded and numbered as such. (Dr. Warren Carroll, The Building of Christendom, Christendom College Press, 1987, 62)

With the First Council of Constantinople (381) we are dealing with another case in which there are not extant acts. This council also was convoked by an emperor, Theodosius I. [Ibid.] The language of his decree suggests he regarded the Roman see as a yardstick of Christian orthodoxy. He commands all his subjects to practice the religion which Peter the apostle transmitted to the Romans. In calling the Council, Theodosius did not envisage the assembled bishops debating Roman doctrine as thought it were an open question.

The fact that Meletius of Antioch presided at Constantinople I, and the absence of any Roman legates, might appear to be evidence against the Roman primacy. It must be remembered that the Council was not originally intended to be ecumenical in the same sense as Nicaea.

It included, after all, only 150 bishops from Thrace, Asia Minor, and Egypt and was convoked to deal with certain Eastern problems.[New Catholic Encyclopedia, s.v. “Constantinople, First Council of.”] In fact, it was not recognized as ecumenical by the Council of Ephesus half a century later, and it was left to Pope Gregory the Great to elevate it to that status. (“Papal Authority at the Earliest Councils,” Brian W. Harrison, This Rock, Jan. 1991)

Ephesus, 431 [papal legates Arcadius, Projectus, and Philip]

The pope . . . sent two bishops, Arcadius and Projectus, to represent himself and his Roman council, and the Roman priest, Philip, as his personal representative. Philip, therefore, takes the first place, though, not being a bishop, he could not preside. It was probably a matter of course that the Patriarch of Alexandria should be president. The legates were directed not to take part in the discussions, but to give judgment on them. It seems that Chalcedon, twenty years later, set the precedent that the papal legates should always be technically presidents at an ecumenical council, and this was henceforth looked upon as a matter of course, and Greek historians assumed that it must have been the case at Nicaea. (Catholic Encyclopedia: “Council of Ephesus”; written by John Chapman)

21:28 when you look at something like . . . indulgences you really have no scriptural basis.
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30:33 Luther . . .  has a really great discussion of this question at the beginning of [his 1525 book] The Bondage of the Will, where [he]  addresses Erasmus . . . he has a really great discussion of this and the fact that Scripture defines itself as a light which enlightens our path. It’s not just this obscure book that nobody can really understand without a proper theological degree or without the necessary authoritative tradition, as is passed down within the canons of the Roman tradition.
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I’m delighted that Jordan brought this up. I have researched this very thing (way back in 2009), along with many other teachings of Luther. Why don’t we be fair and see how Erasmus responded? In other words, examine both sides for a change. . .? But first, at 30:46. Jordan stated that “Luther is maybe a little too harsh to Erasmus at some point . . .” Indeed. Here are some examples from his aforementioned book (from the 1823 Edward Thomas Vaughan translation; available online):
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[Y]ou only show that you are nourishing in your heart a Lucian, or some other hog of the Epicurean sty, who, having no belief at all of a God himself, laughs in his sleeve at all those who believe and confess one. (pt. 1)
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Assuredly, any Jew or Heathen, who had no knowledge at all of Christ, would find it easy enough to draw out such a pattern of faith as yours. You do not mention Christ in a single jot of it; . . .  (Pt. I)
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[Y]our words sound as though, like Epicurus, you accounted the word of God and a future state to be mere fables . . . (Pt. I)
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Nice ecumenical thoughts there, huh? But this was usually what happened whenever anyone refuted Luther. Luther wrote about interpretation of Scripture in the section of his book, “Erasmus’ Skepticism” (I cite the 1823 Henry Cole translation):
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What say you, Erasmus? Is it not enough that you submit your opinion to the Scriptures? Do you submit it to the decrees of the church also? What can the church decree, that is not decreed in the Scriptures? If it can, where then remains the liberty and power of judging those who make the decrees? As Paul, I Cor. xiv., teaches “Let others judge.” Are you not pleased that there should be any one to judge the decrees of the church, which, nevertheless, Paul enjoins? What new kind of religion and humility is this, that, by our own example, you would take away from us the power of judging the decrees of men, and give it unto men without judgment? Where does the Scripture of God command us to do this? . . .

This is the distinction which I make; that I also may act a little the rhetorician and logician – God, and the Scripture of God, are two things; no less so than God, and the Creature of God. That there are in God many hidden things which we know not, no one doubts: as He himself saith concerning the last day: “Of that day knoweth no man but the Father.” (Matt. xxiv. 36.) And (Acts i. 7.) “It is not yours to know the times and seasons.” And again, “I know whom I have chosen,” (John xiii. 18.) And Paul, “The Lord knoweth them that are His,” (2 Tim. ii. 19.). And the like.

But, that there are in the Scriptures some things abstruse, and that all things are not quite plain, is a report spread abroad by the impious Sophists by whose mouth you speak here, Erasmus. But they never have produced, nor ever can produce, one article whereby to prove this their madness. And it is with such scare-crows that Satan has frightened away men from reading the Sacred Writings, and has rendered the Holy Scripture contemptible, that he might cause his poisons of philosophy to prevail in the church. This indeed I confess, that there are many places in the Scriptures obscure and abstruse; not from the majesty of the thing, but from our ignorance of certain terms and grammatical particulars; but which do not prevent a knowledge of all the things in the Scriptures. . . .

All the things, therefore, contained in the Scriptures; are made manifest, although some places, from the words not being understood, are yet obscure. But to know that all things in the Scriptures are set in the clearest light, and then, because a few words are obscure, to report that the things are obscure, is absurd and impious. And, if the words are obscure in one place, yet they are clear in another. But, however, the same thing, which has been most openly declared to the whole world, is both spoken of in the Scriptures in plain words, and also still lies hidden in obscure words. Now, therefore, it matters not if the thing be in the light, whether any certain representations of it be in obscurity or not, if, in the mean while, many other representations of the same thing be in the light. For who would say that the public fountain is not in the light, because those who are in some dark narrow lane do not see it, when all those who are in the Open market place can see it plainly?

Sect. IV.—WHAT you adduce, therefore, about the darkness of the Corycian cavern, amounts to nothing; matters are not so in the Scriptures. For those things which are of the greatest majesty, and the most abstruse mysteries, are no longer in the dark corner, but before the very doors, nay, brought forth and manifested openly. For Christ has opened our understanding to understand the Scriptures, Luke xxiv. 45. And the Gospel is preached to every creature. (Mark xvi. 15, Col. i. 23.) “Their sound is gone out into all the earth.” (Psalm xix. 4.) And “All things that are written, are written for our instruction.” (Rom. xv. 4.) And again, “All Scripture is inspired from above, and is profitable for instruction.” (2 Tim. iii. 16.) . . .

Let, therefore, wretched men cease to impute, with blasphemous perverseness, the darkness and obscurity of their own heart to the all-clear Scriptures of God. . . .

[T]he Spirit is required to understand the whole of the Scripture and every part of it. If you speak of the external clearness, nothing whatever is left obscure or ambiguous; but all things that are in the Scriptures, are by the Word brought forth into the clearest light, and proclaimed to the whole world.

Now let’s look at how Erasmus responded, with regard to Holy Scripture. I cite from Peter Macardle and Clarence H. Miller, translators, Charles Trinkhaus, editor, Collected Works of Erasmus, Vol. 76: Controversies: De Libero Arbitrio / Hyperaspistes I, Univ. of Toronto Press, 1999 (I have a hardcover copy in my library):
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But if knowledge of grammar alone removes all obscurity from Sacred Scripture, how did it happen that St. Jerome, who knew all the languages, was so often at a loss and had to labour mightily to explain the prophets? Not to mention some others, among whom we find even Augustine, in whom you place some stock. Why is it that you yourself, who cannot use ignorance of languages as an excuse, are sometimes at a loss in explicating the psalms, testifying that you are following something you have dreamed up in your own mind, without condemning the opinions of others? . . . Finally, why do your ‘brothers’ disagree so much with one another? They all have the same Scripture, they all claim the same spirit. And yet Karlstadt disagrees with you violently. So do Zwingli and Oecolampadius and Capito, who approve of Karlstadt’s opinion though not of his reasons for it. Then again Zwingli and Balthazar are miles apart on many points. To say nothing of images, which are rejected by others, but defended by you, not to mention the rebaptism rejected by your followers but preached by others, and passing over in silence the fact that secular studies are condemned by others but defended by you. Since you are all treating the subject matter of Scripture, if there is no obscurity in it, why is there so much disagreement among you? On this point there is no reason for you to rail at the wretched sophists: Augustine teaches that obscurity sometimes arises from unknown or ambiguous words, sometimes from the nature of the subject matter, at times from allegories and figures of speech, at times from passages which contradict one another, at least according to what the language seems to say. [De doctrina christiana 2.6.7, 2.9.15] And he gives the reason why God wished such obscurity to find a place in the Sacred Books. [De doctrina christiana 4.8.22] (pp. 130-131)
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Furthermore, where you challenge me and all the sophists to bring forward even one obscure or recondite passage from the Sacred Books which you cannot show is quite clear, I only wish you could make good on your promise! We will bring to you heaps of difficulties and we will forgive you for calling us blinder than a bat, provided you clearly explicate the places where we are at a loss. But if you impose on us the law that we believe that whatever your interpretation is, that is what Scripture means, your associates will not put up with such a law and they stoutly cry out against you, affirming that you interpret Scripture wrongly about the Eucharist. Hence it is not right that we should grant you more authority than is granted by the principal associates of your confession. (p. 132)
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But still, if I were growing weary of this church, as I wavered in perplexity, tell me, I beg you in the name of the gospel, where would you have me go? To that disintegrated congregation of yours, that totally dissected sect? Karlstadt has raged against you, and you in turn against him. And the dispute was not simply a tempest in a teapot but concerned a very serious matter. Zwingli and Oecolampadius have opposed your opinion in many volumes. And some of the leaders of your congregation agree with them, among whom is Capito. Then too what an all-out battles was fought by Balthazar and Zwingli! I am not even sure that there in that tiny little town you agree among yourselves very well. Here your disciples openly taught that the humanities are the bane of godliness, and no languages are to be learned except a bit of Greek and Hebrew, that Latin should be entirely ignored. There were those who would eliminate baptism and those who would repeat it; and there was no lack of those who persecute them for it. In some places images of the saints suffered a dire fate; you came to their rescue. When you book about reforming education was published, they said that the spirit had left you and that you were beginning to write in a human spirit opposed to the gospel, and they maintained you did it to please Melanchthon. A tribe of prophets has risen up there with whom you have engaged in most bitter conflict. Finally, just as every day new dogmas appear among you, so at the same time new quarrels arise. And you demand that no one should disagree with you, although you disagree so much among yourselves about matters of the greatest importance! (pp. 143-144)
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Certainly no one after the apostles claimed that there was no mystery in Scripture that was not clear to him. (pp. 153-154)

You stipulate that we should not ask for or accept anything but Holy Scripture, but you do it in such a way as to require that we permit you to be its sole interpreter, renouncing all others. Thus the victory will be yours if we allow you to be not the steward but the lord of Holy Scripture. (pp. 204-205)

We were talking about your spirit and that of your followers, who profess that there is nothing in Holy Scripture which is obscure to you as long as you know grammar, and we demanded that you establish the credibility of this certainty, which you still fail to do, try as you may. (p. 219)

[I]n Acts, when Paul had taught and admonished them, they compared the scriptural passages with what had been carried out and what had been propounded to them; and there was much they would not have understood if the apostle had not supplied this additional light. Therefore I am not making the passages obscure, but rather God himself wanted there to be some obscurity in them, but in such a way that there would be enough light for the eternal salvation of everyone if he used his eyes and grace was there to help. No one denies that there is truth as clear as crystal in Holy Scripture, but sometimes it is wrapped and covered up by figures and enigmas so that it needs scrutiny and an interpreter, either because God wanted in this way to arouse us from dullness and also to set us to work, as Augustine says, or because truth is more pleasant and affects us more deeply when it has been dug out and shines forth to us through the cover of darkness than if it had been exposed for anyone at all to see . . . (pp. 219-220)

If Holy Scripture is perfectly clear in all respects, where does this darkness among you come from, whence arise such fights to the death about the meaning of Holy Scripture? You prove from the mysteries of Scripture that the body of the Lord is in the Eucharist physically; from the same Scripture Zwingli, Oecolampadius, and Capito teach that it is only signified. (p. 222)

But if you attribute a total understanding of the Holy Scripture to the Holy Spirit, why do you make an exception only for the ignorance of grammar? In a matter of such importance will the Spirit allow grammar to stand in the way of man’s salvation? Since he did not hesitate to impart such riches of eternal wisdom, will he hesitate to impart grammar and common sense? (p. 239)

If you contend that there is no obscurity whatever in Holy Scripture, do not take up the matter with me but with all the orthodox Fathers, of whom there is none who does not preach the same thing as I do. (p. 242)

See my entire seven-part series, “Luther Meets His Match,” which documents this dispute, with Erasmus’ replies (and see more from this particular installment). Erasmus’ replies are generally not available online (I had to pay good money to purchase this book), whereas Luther’s Bondage of the Will is online. So, as usual, folks are usually far more familiar with Luther’s argument against Erasmus, than vice versa (most have never heard of this book from Erasmus). And that is rather one-sided, as I think fair-minded readers would agree.

Luther never responded to Erasmus’ 1526 work in reply to him, Hyperaspistes (“A Defensive Shield”). What a surprise . . . That would have made it a true debate, where both sides interact with each other and respond to counter-replies. Luther was scarcely even capable of that: at least not when he met his match with Erasmus (considered perhaps the greatest Christian scholar of his time), and was way over his head. He could rant and rave, rail and thunder, as he always eventually did in controversy (being a rather excitable sort), but he couldn’t overcome Erasmus’ reasoning, and so once that was fully laid out, he didn’t even try. At least he had wits enough to know when he was bested in debate.

See my related article, 25 Brief Arguments Regarding Biblical “Clearness” [2009].

37:03 What Rome has often done historically [is to] say, “look, when we’ve got a competition between Scripture as the Word of God and tradition we go with [tradition].” Here’s an example . . . communion in both kinds in the medieval church . . . this is a very very late development. There was a lot of superstition that developed around the sacrament of the Eucharist to such an extent that there was this fear of spilling the blood of Christ so that it was taught that only the priests should consume the blood of Christ and the lay person should not receive it at all.

First of all, how it is “superstition” to be concerned about what both sides agree is the Blood of Christ not spilling on the floor? I must confess that I have no idea what he means here, and it’s rather shocking. It seems to me that we can agree that Jesus’ Blood spilled on the ground is not a good thing. The medieval Church was concerned about that. Secondly, Jesus can’t be technically separated under symbols of wafer and wine. Jesus is present Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity in both of what were formerly bread and wine. No one need take my word for that. It’s biblical teaching:

1 Corinthians 11:27 Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the body and blood of the Lord.

Note the bolded “or” and “and.” The way that Paul phrases this proves that he believes that the Body and Blood are present in both species. It’s all in the word “or”. The logic and grammar require it, so that the above can also be expressed in the following two propositions:

Whoever, therefore, eats the bread of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the body and blood of the Lord.

Whoever, therefore, drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the body and blood of the Lord.

I’m glad both kinds are offered in the Catholic Church now, but there is no necessity to receive both, in order to receive Jesus Christ. I myself have received the cup, I think, two times in my entire 33-year Catholic life: when I was received into the Church and once when the consecrated hosts ran out during Mass. My practice has nothing to do with theology; it’s merely a “hygienic” objection. The Catholic Church makes no claim that no one will ever contract a germ, drinking from a common cup with scores or hundreds of others. In any event, no one is “missing” anything. I would throw this objection back onto Jordan, having explained our position, and ask him: what is worse: not receiving the chalice when the host contains all of Christ, or receiving no Body and Blood at all, as in Zwingli’s view, and that of most Protestants besides Lutherans?

Luther himself said he’d rather partake of the Holy Eucharist with Catholics, than drink “mere wine” with the Zwinglians and others who denied the Real Presence. He didn’t deny that Catholics were Christians, but he denied that Zwingli and his followers were. Thus, in light of these considerations, Jordan is majoring on the minors and knocking the Catholic Church, when the vast majority of his fellow Protestants don’t even believe they are truly receiving Jesus at all (and indeed they aren’t, and Catholics contend that Lutherans and the few Anglicans who still believe in Real Presence aren’t, either, since they broke the line of valid ordination). Which is the more important of the two things?

A Calvinist apologist wrote:

I openly challenge the Roman apologists to bring forth any example of a church father who says that after the consecration the bread is the blood of Christ (bolding his own)

I’m happy to oblige, by providing two examples of the logically equivalent converse: the cup described as Christ’s Body:

[W]hen the great prayers and the holy supplications are sent up to God, the Word descends upon the bread and the cup, and they become His body. (St. Athanasius, Sermon to the Newly Baptized, PG 26,1325)

So now repeatedly the bread and wine, sanctified by the Word (the sacred Benediction), is at the same time changed into the Body of that Word; and this Flesh is disseminated among all the Faithful. (St. Gregory of Nyssa, The Great Catechism, 37)

The Catholic Encyclopedia article, “Communion under Both Kinds” makes further biblical arguments and provides a detailed history of many instances in the early Church in which the cup or the host only was distributed, such as the faithful receiving at home (thus implying indirectly that both Body and Blood and the whole Christ were contained in either kind). Example:

It is recorded of St. Basil that he received Holy Communion several times on the day of his death, and under the species of bread alone, as may be inferred from the biographer’s words . . .  These testimonies are sufficient to establish the fact that, in the early centuries, reservation of the Eucharist for the sick and dying, of which the Council of Nicaea (325) speaks (can. xiii) as “the ancient and canonical rule”, was usual under one kind. The reservation of the species of wine for use as the Viaticum . . .  was never the general practice. . . .

I could also bring up the issue of adoration of the consecrated wafer and wine. If indeed Jesus Christ is truly present, then wouldn’t it follow that He should be adored in the sacrament?  That’s what Martin Luther — in consistency — thought:

Now to come back to the sacrament: he who does not believe that Christ’s body and blood are present does well not to worship either with his spirit or with his body. But he who does believe, as sufficient demonstration has shown it ought to be believed, can surely not withhold his adoration of the body and blood of Christ without sinning. For I must always confess that Christ is present when his body and blood are present. His words do not lie to me, and he is not separated from his body and blood. (The Adoration of the Sacrament, 1523, Luther’s Works, vol. 36)

[O]ne should not withhold from him such worship and adoration either . . . one should not condemn and accuse of heresy people who do adore the sacrament. For although Christ has not commanded it, neither has he forbidden it, but often accepted it. Free, free it must be, according as one is disposed in his heart and has opportunity. (Ibid.)

Lutherans do not, however, practice eucharistic adoration now. Why? Jesus is present, so why would they not worship Him? On what basis is the practice neglected? And is this not a far greater omission than merely partaking in one kind (when Jesus is fully present in both kinds)? Catholics worship Jesus in the consecrated elements and receive Him. Lutherans only do the second. Again, I ask: why? So they won’t be too much like Catholics?

Jordan is now almost two-thirds through his talk on sola Scriptura and he has scarcely defended it at all (so I had to change my title). Certainly nothing he has presented in the first 37 minutes presents undeniable arguments that sola Scriptura is true, and that only Scripture is an infallible authority in Christianity. But lots of potshots against the Catholic Church! This is a form of the old “your dad’s uglier than mine!” tactic. When some folks have insufficient arguments to make their own case, they go after the other guy and hope that no one notices.

37:47 This has no precedent in Scripture whatsoever. [When] Jesus talks about the sacrament what does he say?: “take eat, take drink” . . . 

I already mentioned 1 Corinthians 11:27, so there is indeed relevant Scripture. And the second claim isn’t true, either. In John 6:58, Jesus mentions eating His Flesh as salvation-giving, without mentioning drinking His Blood: “he who eats this bread will live for ever” (cf. 6:33, 50-51). Nice try, though.

38:27 here is a very clear example where you have the entirety of Scripture and the entirety of the testimony of the church fathers . . . 

It is true that the Church for its first twelve centuries offered both kinds. But it also offered only one kind in several different instances, as the Catholic Encyclopedia I linked to, documents, thus implying that either element is sufficient. And I have shown how this has scriptural support, in at least five passages.

40:15 You don’t find the bodily Assumption of Mary in the early church; you don’t find the Immaculate Conception of Mary in the early church; you don’t find the dogma of papal infallibility in the early church.

Most doctrines take many centuries to develop. One didn’t have the complete canon of Scripture until the late 4th century. The doctrine of the Holy Trinity was developing in key respects up through the 4th century, and in more particulars even a few centuries more. The view of religious image took many centuries to sort out (with Catholics, Orthodox, Lutherans, and Anglicans coming down on one side and Calvinists and some fundamentalists on the other). So that’s a given. And it’s true for doctrines that we believe in common.

The Blessed Virgin Mary’s Assumption and Immaculate Conception can be strongly deduced from Scripture and by analogies in Scripture. The primacy of St. Peter is very strongly indicated in the Bible and even strongly backed up in many particulars by Protestant scholars. Then we also have solid Protestant scholars noting how sola Scriptura and sola fide were both profoundly absent not only in the fathers but all the way up till Luther. See my article: Bible / Faith “Alone” vs. The Fathers (vs. Gavin Ortlund) [2-13-24]. We can defend our views on these matters (I just gave links where I have done so). Protestants can’t, and usually won’t, when scrutinized and pressed, in depth (as I am doing right now). Jordan has that choice. We’ll see what he decides.

40:27 There are many things that are declared dogma that actually don’t have any roots in Tradition. It’s just traditions that they happen to grab on to [with] many of them being very late . . . 

This is one of those hyper-polemical statements that take a lot of time and effort to refute. Fortunately, I have already done so, in my 33 years of Catholic apologetics writing (now available in 4,500+ articles — on this blog — and 55 books). In all of that work I have offered biblical and traditional arguments for virtually all major Catholic dogmas and doctrines. I’ve never found a single one that had didn’t “have any” biblical or patristic support. I’d be happy to discuss any of them with Jordan or Gavin Ortlund or any other active Protestant apologist.

40:43 infallibility isn’t declared Dogma until 1870 . . . 

That’s right, which means that Catholics were required to believe it after that time. It doesn’t follow that it wasn’t entrenched in Catholic tradition long before. I found a statement from St. Francis de Sales in the 16th century that is identical in many ways to the dogma of 1870. It was clearly believed. Luther makes many statements where he says that such-and-such a doctrine is good and pious but that it’s not required. That’s how Catholics were regarding papal infallibility before 1870. But then it was required, just as Luther would say about the Holy Eucharist or baptismal regeneration. It’s a debate about the precise nature of the level of authority any given doctrine has. Not one Protestant in a hundred understands these distinctions, and even Jordan seems not to (by the way he frames his statement).

One could say the same about the canon of Scripture, which was largely held with more and more certitude for 350 years, and then the church decreed that various books were certainly canonical and everyone accepted it, for the most part. It was fairly certain and then it became certain In terms of the faith of Christians). No one identified all 27 New Testament books as Scripture until 367, when Athanasius did it. Within 30 years, the Church at large agreed and proclaimed these books canon, along with the Old Testament (including the seven deuterocanonical books). So “late” dogmatic proclamations are no new concept with medieval Catholics. Protestants should be the last people to even bring such a thing up, seeing that their two pillars (sola Scriptura and sola fide) are scarcely found at all in the Bible, nor the fathers, nor the medieval Church. It’s a case of “log-in-the-eye disease.”

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Photo credit: Lutheran church in Wittenberg, Germany where the Protestant Revolt began, with Martin Luther [Wikimedia Commons / Creative CommonsAttribution-Share Alike 3.0 Unported license]

Summary: Lutheran Jordan Cooper makes six wide-ranging criticisms of the Catholic Church (while supposedly arguing for sola Scriptura). I methodically dispose of each one.

2024-02-27T09:57:02-04:00

1 Corinthians 3:12-15 (RSV) Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw — [13] each man’s work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. [14] If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. [15] If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

Reformed Baptist apologist James White recently engaged in a debate with Catholic apologist Trent Horn, on the topic of purgatory (2-17-24). In his usual “post-mortem” remarks on that exchange: a Dividing Line episode called “Road Trip Morning Dividing Line” (2-22-24), White stated at 37:35:

One of the glaring errors in Rome’s abuse of 1 Corinthians chapter 3 is the fact that “the day will show it.” In Paul’s language there the day is obviously the day of the Lord. It’s the final day of of judgment, but Purgatory doesn’t take place [on] the final day of judgment. Purgatory takes place before then; it takes place as soon as someone dies, and so how can that be relevant . . .?

Well, White assumes that it is the Day of the Lord; i.e., the final judgment, occurring shortly after the Second Coming. But not all Protestant commentators or biblical linguistic scholars agree with that, by any stretch.

Benson Commentary states that “especially the day of final judgment, the great day of the Lord, is here intended,” but it also includes other strains of meaning here that might be seen to include a time other than the day of judgment:

Perhaps, 1st, η ημερα δηλωσει, might be rendered, time will declare itfor time, generally a little time, manifests whether a minister’s doctrine be Scriptural and sound, and his converts genuine or not. If his preaching produce no saving effect upon his hearers, if none of them are reformed in their manners, and renewed in their hearts; if none of them are turned from sin to righteousness, and made new creatures in Christ Jesus, there is reason to suspect the doctrine delivered to them is not of the right kind, and therefore is not owned of God. 2d, The expression means, The day of trial shall declare it(see 1 Peter 4:12 [“do not be surprised at the fiery ordeal which comes upon you to prove you”]) for a day of trial is wont to follow a day of merciful visitation; . . .

Barnes’ Notes on the Bible similarly observes:

Perhaps the word “day” here may mean time in general, as we say, “time will show” – and as the Latin adage says, dies docebit; but it is more natural to refer it to the Day of Judgment.

Matthew Poole’s Commentary is even more “broad-minded”:

For the day shall declare it: what day shall declare it is not so steadily agreed by interpreters. Some by a day here understand a long time, in process of time it shall be declared; . . . Others understand it of a day of adversity and great affliction, the day of God’s vengeance; . . . Others understand by the day here mentioned, the day of judgment, which is indeed often called the day of the Lord, 1 Corinthians 1:8, and described by fire, Joel 2:3 2 Thessalonians 1:8 2 Peter 3:10; but this text saith not the day of the Lordbut only the day.

for the day shall declare it; meaning not the day of judgment, though that is often called the day, or that day, and will be attended with fire, and in it all secrets shall be made manifest; but the apostle intends a discovery that will be made of doctrines in this world, before that time comes: wherefore this day rather designs a day of tribulation; as of persecution, which tries men’s principles, whether they are solid or not; and of error and heresy, when men are put upon a re-examination of their doctrines, whereby persons and truths that are approved are made manifest . . .

Meyer’s NT Commentary holds that it refers to the day of judgment, but notes that there are other opinions, too:

The following expositions are alien to the succeeding context: of time in general (. . . —so Grotius, Wolf, Wetstein, Stolz, Rosenmüller, Flatt, and others); or of the time of clear knowledge of the gospel (Erasmus, Beza, Calvin, Vorstius) . . .

Henry Alford, in his Greek Testament Critical Exegetical Commentary, also thinks it is judgment day, but notes differing views among commentators:

(1) ‘the day of the destruction of Jerusalem,’ which shall shew the vanity of Judaizing doctrines: so Hammond (but not clearly nor exclusively), Lightfoot., Schöttg., . . . (2) ‘the lapse of time,’ as in the proverb, ‘dies docebit;’—so Grot., Wolf, Mosheim, Rosenm., . . . (3) ‘the light of day,’ i.e. of clear knowledge, as opposed to the present time of obscurity and night: so Calvin, Beza, Erasmus . . . (4) ‘the day of tribulation:’—so Augustine, . . .

Obviously, then, there is not one sole interpretation held by one and all, as White seems to casually assume. White’s take is the leading one among Protestants, but not the only one; so it’s not written in stone like the Ten Commandments. The Catholic Navarre Commentary states:

Although St. Paul does not make explicit mention of any judgment but this Last Judgment when Jesus “shall come to judge the living and the dead” (Apostle’s Creed), obviously — as the Church has always believed — there is also a judgment “immediately after death” (Benedict XII, Benedictus Deus, Dz-Sch, 1000). It is described as the “particular” or individual judgment because “when each one of us departs this life, he is instantly placed before the judgment seat of God, where all that he has ever done or spoken or thought during life shall be subjected to the most rigid scrutiny” (St. Pius V Catechism, I, 8, 3).

The Catholic Encyclopedia (“Particular Judgment”) explains this doctrine:

Existence of particular judgment proved from Scripture

Ecclesiastes 11:9; 12:1 sq.; and Hebrews 9:27, are sometimes quoted in proof of the particular judgment, but though these passages speak of a judgment after death, neither the context nor the force of the words proves that the sacred writer had in mind a judgment distinct from that at the end of the world. The Scriptural arguments in defence of the particular judgment must be indirect. There is no text of which we can certainly say that it expressly affirms this dogma but there are several which teach an immediate retribution after death and thereby clearly imply a particular judgment. Christ represents Lazarus and Dives [Luke 16:19 ff.] as receiving their respective rewards immediately after death. They have always been regarded as types of the just man and the sinner. To the penitent thief it was promised that his soul instantly on leaving the body would be in the state of the blessed: “This day thou shalt be with me in Paradise” (Luke 23:43). St. Paul (2 Corinthians 5) longs to be absent from the body that he may be present to the Lord, evidently understanding death to be the entrance into his reward (cf. Philemon 1:21 sq.). Ecclesiasticus 11:28-29 speaks of a retribution at the hour of death, but it may refer to a temporal punishment, such as sudden death in the midst of prosperity, the evil remembrance that survives the wicked or the misfortunes of their children. However, the other texts that have been quoted are sufficient to establish the strict conformity of the doctrine with Scripture teaching. (Cf. Acts 1:25; Apocalypse 20:4-6, 12-14).

[Dave: Luke 16:25 But Abraham said, `Son, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and Laz’arus in like manner evil things; but now he is comforted here, and you are in anguish.

2 Corinthians 5:8, 10 We are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord. . . . [10] For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive good or evil, according to what he has done in the body.

Revelation 20:4 Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom judgment was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony to Jesus and for the word of God, and who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life, and reigned with Christ a thousand years. (this was before the “great white throne” judgment on Judgment Day: see Rev 20:7, 11-15) ]

Patristic testimony regarding particular judgment

St. Augustine witnesses clearly and emphatically to this faith of the early Church. Writing to the presbyter Peter, he criticizes the works of Vincentius Victor on the soul, pointing out that they contain nothing except what is vain or erroneous or mere commonplace, familiar to all Catholics. As an instance of the last, he cites Victor’s interpretation of the parable of Lazarus and Dives. He writes:

For with respect to that which he [Victor] most correctly and very soundly holds, namely, that souls are judged when they depart from the body, before they come to that judgment which must be passed on them when reunited to the body and are tormented or glorified in that same flesh which they here inhabited — was that a matter of which you (Peter) were unaware? Who is so obstinate against the Gospel as not to perceive those things in the parable of that poor man carried after death to Abraham’s bosom and of the rich man whose torments are set before us? (De anima et ejus origine, 11, n.8.)

In the sermons of the Fathers occur graphic descriptions of the particular judgment (cf. S. Ephraem, “Sermo de secundo Adventu”; “Sermo in eos qui in Christo obdormiunt”).

St. Paul writes that “we shall all stand before the judgment seat of God . . . each of us shall give account of himself to God” (Rom 14:10, 12).

See also, Wikipedia, “Particular Judgment,” which provides scriptural and patristic indications.

Related Reading 

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Summary: Baptist apologist James White argues that “the Day” in 1 Corinthians 3:13 refers to the Day of the Lord (the Last Judgment). I argue that it’s the particular judgment.

2023-10-31T10:06:21-04:00

vs. Nathan Rinne

Including St. Augustine’s View on the Rule of Faith & the Perspicuity of Scripture; Luther & Lutherans’ Belief in Falling Away

Nathan Rinne is a “Lutheran layman with a theology degree.” He knows enough theology to be able to preach a sermon (“Still Justified by Faith Alone, Apart from Works of the Law”), which he did at the Clam Falls Lutheran Church in Wisconsin on October 29, 2023, in celebration of the Protestant Revolt, or what Protestants call “Reformation Day” (October 31st, when Luther tacked up his 95 Theses in 1517). This congregation is a member of the American Association of Lutheran Churches (AALC), which is a breakaway traditional Lutheran denomination (since Lutheranism as a whole is largely theologically liberal today). It had 16,000 members as of 2008, and is in friendly fellowship with the much larger Lutheran Church – Missouri Synod (1.8 million members). Nathan and I engaged in several substantive and cordial dialogues about a dozen years ago. His words will be in blue. I use RSV for Bible citations.

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“For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law.”

– Romans 3:28

The phrase “works of the law” here (a technical phrase that St. Paul uses seven times) is not referring to all good works whatsoever (which is what most think it means), but rather, certain ceremonial Jewish laws. This is what is called the “New Perspective on Paul” (NPP): a Protestant scholarly movement that has a significant affinity with traditional Catholic doctrine in this respect. The Wikipedia article by this title provides a good summary:

The old Protestant perspective claims that Paul advocates justification through faith in Jesus Christ over justification through works of the Law. After the Reformation, this perspective was known as sola fide; this was traditionally understood as Paul arguing that Christians’ good works would not factor into their salvation – only their faith would count. In this perspective, first-century Second Temple Judaism is dismissed as sterile and legalistic.

According to [this view], Paul’s letters do not address general good works, but instead question observances such as circumcision, dietary laws, and Sabbath laws, which were the “boundary markers” that set the Jews apart from the other ethnic groups. . . . first-century Palestinian Judaism was not a “legalistic community,” nor was it oriented to “salvation by works.” . . .

The “new perspective” is an attempt to reanalyze Paul’s letters and interpret them based on an understanding of first-century Judaism, taken on its own terms. . . .

There are certain trends and commonalities within the movement, but what is held in common is the belief that the historic Lutheran and Reformed perspectives of Paul the Apostle and Judaism are fundamentally incorrect. . . .

The historic Protestant perspectives interpret this phrase [“works of the law”] as referring to human effort to do good works in order to meet God’s standards (Works Righteousness). . . . By contrast, new-perspective scholars see Paul as talking about “badges of covenant membership” or criticizing Gentile believers who had begun to rely on the Torah to reckon Jewish kinship. . . .

“New-perspective” interpretations of Paul tend to result in Paul having nothing negative to say about the idea of human effort or good works, and saying many positive things about both. New-perspective scholars point to the many statements in Paul’s writings that specify the criteria of final judgment as being the works of the individual.

Final Judgment According to Works… was quite clear for Paul (as indeed for Jesus). Paul, in company with mainstream second-Temple Judaism, affirms that God’s final judgment will be in accordance with the entirety of a life led – in accordance, in other words, with works.

— N. T. Wright

. . . in the perspective of Luther and Calvin, God graciously empowers the individual to the faith which leads to salvation and also to good works, while in the “new” perspective God graciously empowers individuals to the faith (demonstrated in good works), which leads to salvation.

Catholics, who also believe in merit (a biblical concept itself, which Protestants, including NPP advocates, deny), hold that faith and works cannot be separated, and that the latter is an intrinsic part of the former, without which faith is “dead” (see James 2:17, 26).

Yes, the church had always had to deal with relatively small break-off groups…

And Lutheranism: concocted by Martin Luther in 1517 and especially in his writings in 1521, is one of these. But it was different in that it was still trinitarian and Christian, alongside its errors.

But for the most part, the church was one body, catholic, that is universal – being found across the nations. 

Yes, and it remains so today, and has been so since the time that Jesus Christ established it with St. Peter as the first leader (Mt 16:18-19).

Then there was the Eastern schism some 1000 years ago, when the Eastern churches split from Rome, the Western half of the church.

That’s exactly what happened, as opposed to the Catholic Church departing Orthodoxy, as if it were the one true Church by itself. Eastern Christianity had in fact split off of Rome at least five times before, and in every occurrence they were on the wrong side of the dispute, as Orthodox today concede:

1. The Arian schisms (343-98)
2. The controversy over St. John Chrysostom (404-415)
3. The Acacian schism (484-519)
4. Concerning Monothelitism (640-681)
5. Concerning Iconoclasm (726-87 and 815-43)

1054 was simply a larger and sadly lasting instance of the same schismatic, “contra-Catholic” mentality.

Following this, about 500 years ago, the Protestant Reformation occurred, with Rome expelling Martin Luther and then other Protestants for their perceived rebellion. 

Let no one fool themselves: this was undeniably a schism, just as the Orthodox departure was. Nathan calls that split a “schism” but is reluctant to call the Protestant Revolt the same thing. But what is the essential difference? There is none. He even uses the qualifying term “perceived” in referring to Luther’s rebellion, implying that it wasn’t that, and is wrongly thought to be so by Catholics. It certainly was a revolt or rebellion. In fact, Luther departed from Catholic teaching in at least fifty ways before he was ever excommunicated, as I documented over 17 years ago. I commented upon this, after listing the fifty items:

So that is 50 ways in which Luther was a heretic, heterodox, a schismatic, or believed things which were clearly contrary to the Catholic Church’s teaching or practice, up to and including truly radical departures (even societally radical in some cases). Is that enough to justify his excommunication from Catholic ranks? Or was the Church supposed to say, “yeah, Luther, you know, you’re right about these fifty issues. You know better than the entire Church, the entire history of the Church, and all the wisdom of the saints in past ages who have believed these things. So we will bow to your heaven-sent wisdom, change all fifty beliefs or practices, so we can proceed in a godly direction. Thanks so much! We are forever indebted to you for having informed us of all these errors!!”

Is that not patently ridiculous? What Church would change 50 things in its doctrines because one person feels himself to be some sort of oracle from God or pseudo-prophet: God’s man for the age? Yet we are led to believe that it is self-evident that Luther was a good, obedient Catholic who only wanted to reform the Church, not overturn or leave it, let alone start a new sect. He may have been naive or silly enough to believe that himself, but objectively speaking, it is clear and plain to one and all that what he offered – even prior to 1520 – was a radical program; a revolution. This is not reform. And the so-called “Protestant Reformation” was not that, either (considered as a whole). It was a Revolt or a Revolution. I have just shown why that is.

No sane, conscious person who had read any of his three radical treatises of 1520 could doubt that he had already ceased to be an orthodox Catholic. He did not reluctantly become so because he was unfairly kicked out of the Church by men who would not listen to manifest Scripture and reason (as the Protestant myth and perpetual propaganda would have it) but because he had chosen himself to accept heretical teachings, by the standard of Catholic orthodoxy, and had become a radical, intent also on spreading his (sincerely and passionately held) errors across the land with slanderous, mocking, propagandistic tracts and even vulgar woodcuts, if needs be.

Therefore, the Church was entirely sensible, reasonable, within her rights, logical, self-consistent, and not hypocritical or “threatened” in the slightest to simply demand Luther’s recantation of his errors at the Diet of Worms in 1521, and to refuse to argue with him (having already tried on several occasions, anyway), because to do so would have granted his ridiculous presumption that he was in a position to singlehandedly dispute and debate what had been the accumulated doctrinal and theological wisdom of the Church for almost 1500 years.

No doubt such an argument sounds “harsh” and utterly unacceptable to Lutheran and other Protestant ears, but it’s nothing personal, and hey, their endless oppositional rhetoric against Catholicism (usually filled with caricatures and historical whoppers; even theological inaccuracies) also sounds quite harsh to us, too. It works both ways. The Catholic must respond — and cannot be faulted for responding — to the basic Protestant critique of us, just as Nathan is attempting to do in this sermon. Protestants have a well-honed perspective, but rest assured that we have ours, too, and it is at least as reasonable as theirs. Protestants are so used to no or feeble defenses of the Catholic Church over against “Reformation” rhetoric that they think their view of the Protestant Revolt is the only possible one available. I used to be of the same mind myself, until I actually read both sides. There are always two sides to every human conflict, and both need to be fairly considered.

Was the Reformation necessary? 

If it was a necessity – even one that God deemed necessary – was it a tragic necessity? 

No. What was necessary was a reform within the existing Catholic Church (which is always necessary at any given time, as we say: human beings being the sinners that we are).

Or, should we, perhaps feeling some blame for causing a rupture in the body, feel some shame for being Lutherans?

Current-day Lutherans are not to blame for the sin of schism, as the Catholic Church made clear at Vatican II, but Luther and the original Lutheran — and larger Protestant — movement were responsible for that sin. Lutheranism contains a great deal of truth, as all Protestant denominations do, and that is a very good thing. I thank God and am very grateful for what I learned when I was an evangelical, from 1977-1990.

Catholics contend that Catholicism is the fullness of theological and spiritual truth. It doesn’t have to run down Protestants as wicked and evil (as the tiny anti-Catholic wing of Protestants think of us). Rather, it is a “very good” and “best” scenario, as we see it, rather than “good vs. evil” or “light vs. darkness.” We’re not the ones making the accusation of “antichrists” and mass apostasy from Christianity itself, and supposed idolatry and blasphemy and all the rest. We would say, “we have much more to offer to you, our esteemed separate brethren, that can benefit you in your Christian walk with Jesus.” Its somewhat like the “pearl of great price” in the Bible.

Martin Luther also said some very good and “traditional-sounding” words about the Catholic Church, as I have documented. These came mostly after he was shocked by the further (and I would say, inevitable) inter-Protestant schisms of the Anabaptists, Zwingli, Carlstadt, iconoclasts, and others; as well as the Peasants’ Revolt of 1524-1525. Luther utterly detested these splits, saying that “there are as many sects as there are heads.” His rhetoric was much less fiery and volatile and “anti-traditional” after that; at least some of the time. But he refused to ever admit that he started all of this with his own schism and the new and false premises and presuppositions entailed (such as sola Scriptura and private judgment). How blind we all are to our own faults! When Zwingli was killed in battle, Luther wrote:

And recently God has notably punished the poor people of Switzerland, Zwingli and his followers, for they were hardened and perverted, condemned of themselves, as St. Paul says. They will all experience the same.

Although neither Munzerites nor Zwinglians will admit that they are punished by God, but give out that they are martyrs, nevertheless we, who know that they have gravely erred in the sacrament and other articles, recognize God’s punishment and beware of it ourselves. (Preserved Smith, The Life and Letters of Luther, Boston and New York: Houghton Mifflin Company, 1911, 291-292; letter from Wittenberg, “February or beginning of March, 1532)

In the same letter Luther decried the notion that anyone would “teach against the long and unanimously held doctrine of the Church” and stated that “we must not trifle with the articles of faith so long and unanimously held by Christendom.” In his mind, Catholicism was superior to the Protestants who deemed fit to split off against his own movement (using the same justification that he used to depart from Catholicism).

You see, even admirable men like Sir Thomas More (see the excellent movie A Man for All Seasons!) said that since the church basically owned the Bible they could decide how it was to be used and interpreted!

This needs to be documented, so one can consult the context. I just wrote yesterday about the Catholic Church and the interpretation of Scripture, knocking down the usual numerous myths But even if St. Thomas More — great as he was, as a saint and martyr — is shown to have expressed something contrary to official Church doctrine, he had no authority anyway, compared to the magisterium. Lutherans, in fact, argue the same way. Many times if I cite Luther, they will note that it’s not his view that counts, but rather that of the Book of Concord (and I understand this; I usually cite Luther in the historical sense, of how the early Protestants developed; as I have done in this article). Likewise, with us. Protestant critics need to properly consult ecumenical councils or papal encyclicals if they wish to critique our view, not individual scholars or theologians.

Some of Rome’s highest-ranking theologians, like the Court theologian Prier[i]as for example, even claimed the authority of the Gospel existed because of the Pope’s authority. He stated: 

“In its irrefragable and divine judgment the church’s authority is greater than the authority of Scripture…the authority of the Roman Pontiff…is greater than the authority of the Gospel, since because of it we believe in the Gospels.”)” (see Tavard’s Holy Writ on Holy Church)…

Again, one theologian doesn’t speak for the whole Church (and shouldn’t be presented as supposedly having done so). Not even any given Church father — including the great Augustine — can do so. The authoritative magisterium of the Church in harmonious conjunction with sacred tradition and Sacred Scripture determines these matters. An individual (and not a bishop) is cited, even though he has no binding authority in Catholicism. This is not the way to disprove anything in Catholicism.

Prierias died in 1523, 22 years before the Council of Trent began. Theologians are not even part of the magisterium (it is popes and bishops together in ecumenical councils in harmony with popes). He was simply wrong. The Decree Concerning the Canonical Scriptures, from the Fourth Session of the Council of Trent in 1546 (the year of Luther’s death), doesn’t approach Holy Scripture like Prierias did:

. . . keeping this always in view, that, errors being removed, the purity itself of the Gospel be preserved in the Church; which (Gospel), before promised through the prophets in the holy Scriptures, our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, first promulgated with His own mouth, and then commanded to be preached by His Apostles to every creature, as the fountain of all, both saving truth, and moral discipline . . . (the Synod) following the examples of the orthodox Fathers, receives and venerates with an equal affection of piety, and reverence, all the books both of the Old and of the New Testament–seeing that one God is the author of both . . . as having been dictated, either by Christ’s own word of mouth, or by the Holy Ghost, and preserved in the Catholic Church by a continuous succession. (my italics)

The Catholic Church “receives” and “preserves” and “venerates” the Bible. It doesn’t claim authority over the Bible or the gospel. It’s two different concepts. One statement by one non-authoritative theologian doesn’t change this fact. Vatican I (1870) and Vatican II (1962-1965) elaborated upon this understanding and made it even more crystal clear that the Catholic Church doesn’t consider itself superior to or “over” the Bible:

These the Church holds to be sacred and canonical; not because, having been carefully composed by mere human industry, they were afterward approved by her authority; not because they contain revelation, with no admixture of error; but because, having been written by the inspiration of the Holy Ghost, they have God for their author, and have been delivered as such to the Church herself. (Vatican I, Dogmatic Constitution on the Catholic Faith, chapter II; emphasis added)

The divinely-revealed realities which are contained and presented in the text of sacred Scripture, have been written down under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. For Holy Mother Church relying on the faith of the apostolic age, accepts as sacred and canonical the books of the Old and New Testaments, whole and entire, with all their parts, on the grounds that they were written under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit (cf. Jn. 20:31; 2 Tim. 3:16; 2 Pet. 1:19-21; 3:15-16), they have God as their author, and have been handed on as such to the Church herself. (Vatican II, Dogmatic Constitution on Divine Revelation [Dei Verbum], Chapter III, 11; emphasis added)

Nathan himself stated later on, that “the Church, in it’s truly God-given authority, had recognized, and zealously guarded and passed down its primary tradition, the Holy Scriptures. Exactly! This is precisely what Vatican I and Vatican II clarified.    Likewise, Lutheran Carl E. Braaten wrote eloquently about the relationship of the Bible and the Church: thoughts that Catholics can wholeheartedly accept:

Scripture principle exists only on account of the church and for the sake of the church…The Scripture principle of Reformation theology and its hermeneutical principles make sense only in and with the church . . . The authority of Scripture functions not in separation from the church but only in conjunction with the Spirit-generated fruits in the life of the church, its apostolic confession of faith and its life-giving sacraments of baptism, absolution and the Lord’s Supper. (“The Problem of Authority in the Church,” in: Carl E. Braaten and Robert W. Jenson, editors, The Catholicity of the Reformation, Grand Rapids, Michigan: William B. Eerdmans, 1996, 61-62)

This, to say the least, is a far cry from what Augustine meant. 

He, for one – like many others before and after him – also said things like, “Let us… yield ourselves and bow to the authority of the Holy Scriptures, which can neither err nor deceive…”

A citation would be nice for this one, too (many people online also cite it without documentation). But there is nothing contrary to Catholicism in these words, even without consultation of context. Every Christian ought to do so. Since we’re now gonna engage in the rather common exercise of “competing” St. Augustine citations, I’m more than happy to cull from the book that I edited, The Quotable Augustine (2012). It devotes six-and-a-half pages to the question of thoroughly Catholic Augustine‘s view of the rule of faith. Here are some of his words:

There is a third class of objectors who either really do understand Scripture well, or think they do, and who, because they know (or imagine) that they have attained a certain power of interpreting the sacred books without reading any directions of the kind that I propose to lay down here, will cry out that such rules are not necessary for any one, but that everything rightly done towards clearing up the obscurities of Scripture could be better done by the unassisted grace of God. . . . No, no; rather let us put away false pride and learn whatever can be learned from man; . . . lest, being ensnared by such wiles of the enemy and by our own perversity, we may even refuse to go to the churches to hear the gospel itself, or to read a book, or to listen to another reading or preaching, . . . Cornelius the centurion, although an angel announced to him that his prayers were heard and his alms had in remembrance, was yet handed over to Peter for instruction, and not only received the sacraments from the apostle’s hands, but was also instructed by him as to the proper objects of faith, hope, and love. [Acts x] And without doubt it was possible to have done everything through the instrumentality of angels, but the condition of our race would have been much more degraded if God had not chosen to make use of men as the ministers of His word to their fellow-men. For how could that be true which is written, “The temple of God is holy, which temple you are,” [1 Corinthians 3:17] if God gave forth no oracles from His human temple, but communicated everything that He wished to be taught to men by voices from heaven, or through the ministration of angels? Moreover, love itself, which binds men together in the bond of unity, would have no means of pouring soul into soul, and, as it were, mingling them one with another, if men never learned anything from their fellow-men. (On Christian Doctrine, Preface, 2, 5-6)

The authority of our books, which is confirmed by the agreement of so many nations, supported by a succession of apostles, bishops, and councils, is against you. (Against Faustus the Manichee, xiii, 5; cf. xi, 5; xiii, 16; xxxiii, 9)

[W]e hold most firmly, concerning our Lord Jesus Christ, what may be called the canonical rule, as it is both disseminated through the Scriptures, and has been demonstrated by learned and Catholic handlers of the same Scriptures . . . (On the Trinity, ii, 1, 2)

My opinion therefore is, that wherever it is possible, all those things should be abolished without hesitation, which neither have warrant in Holy Scripture, nor are found to have been appointed by councils of bishops, nor are confirmed by the practice of the universal Church, . . . (Epistle 55 [19, 35] to Januarius [400] )

St. Augustine also wrote about the perspicuity (clearness) of Scripture:

[L]et the reader consult the rule of faith which he has gathered from the plainer passages of Scripture, and from the authority of the Church, . . . (On Christian Doctrine, 3, 2, 2)

For many meanings of the holy Scriptures are concealed, and are known only to a few of singular intelligence . . . (Explanations of the Psalms, 68:30 [68, 36] )

For him, the authority of the church was embodied in the living tradition, admittedly spearheaded by the Pope, and that was because the Scriptures were also the ultimate wellspring of that authority, the sum and substance of that authority. 

The Catholic Church wholeheartedly agrees, in affirming that the Catholic “teaching office is not above the word of God, but serves it, teaching only what has been handed on, listening to it devoutly, guarding it scrupulously and explaining it faithfully in accord with a divine commission and with the help of the Holy Spirit . . .” (Vatican II, Dei Verbum, ch. II, 10).

The same document stated that “Easy access to Sacred Scripture should be provided for all the Christian faithful” (ch. 6, 22); “the study of the sacred page is, as it were, the soul of sacred theology” (ch. 6, 24); “all the clergy must hold fast to the Sacred Scriptures through diligent sacred reading and careful study . . . The sacred synod also earnestly and especially urges all the Christian faithful, especially Religious, to learn by frequent reading of the divine Scriptures the ‘excellent knowledge of Jesus Christ’ (Phil. 3:8); “For ignorance of the Scriptures is ignorance of Christ.” (ch. 6, 25); “we may hope for a new stimulus for the life of the Spirit from a growing reverence for the word of God, which ‘lasts forever’ (Is. 40:8; see 1 Peter 1:23-25).” (ch. 6, 26); “the force and power in the word of God is so great that it stands as the support and energy of the Church, the strength of faith for her sons, the food of the soul, the pure and everlasting source of spiritual life.” (ch. 6, 21)

And the church in Luther’s day was failing, to say the least. In his day, the Pope was going so far as to say things like “since God has given us the papacy, let us enjoy it.” 

How is this inconsistent with what St. Paul wrote: “let every one lead the life which the Lord has assigned to him, and in which God has called him” (1 Cor 7:17)? Is the pope supposed to go around with a long face, and not “enjoy” his work? It’s a mere drudgery? Paul asserted that God “richly furnishes us with everything to enjoy” (1 Tim 6:17). Yet somehow the office of the papacy is to be devoid of such joy? Biblically, this makes no sense. “Joy” is mentioned 60 times in the NT. The disciples were “filled with joy” (Acts 13:52; cf. Rom 14:17; 15:13; 2 Cor 2:3; Gal 5:22; Phil 1:25; Col 1:11; 1 Thess 1:6; 1 Pet 1:8). This should be the case even when we “meet various trials” (Jas 1:2). James says to “Count it all joy.”

Clearly, here was a leader of God’s church who – so taken up with worldly power – was culpably ignorant of not understanding what God really intended for him to do. 

How does this follow from the words cited? Nathan attempts to judge a man’s heart, and for no sufficient reason: a thing which we ought never do. If these words (assuming they are authentic) indeed carry some nefarious or sinister meaning, then we would have to have some context, to judge that. Prima facie, I see nothing wrong or unbiblical about them. But whatever the man’s real faults, we point out that impeccability is not the same as papal infallibility. There were a few “bad popes.” Just as sinners wrote the inspired revelation of the Bible, so can sinners make infallible pronouncements. Most popes, however, have been good, pious Christians and holy men.

Luther . . . brought nothing new.

To the contrary, as I have documented, he brought at least fifty novel, new things into Christian theology: and all before he was ever excommunicated.

We can therefore never emphasize enough that Luther and the “Lutherans” – Rome’s term of abuse – never intended to leave the Roman Catholic Church but were ejected by them.

If “Lutherans” is a “term of abuse” then why was it retained by the denomination [s] that continued Luther’s split? Lutherans free to reject the term, just as we are to reject “papism” or “Romanism,” etc. Until they do, the above objection is a non sequitur.

The intention to leave is clearly latent in the fact that Luther came to espouse fifty things contrary to existing Catholic tradition, which showed his spirit of rebellion and arrogance (thinking he knew better than the Church and all of Church history and doctrinal precedent), just as lust in the heart precedes actual physical adultery. He spread these radical ideas far and wide, with the help of the printing press. It’s how every radical movement has functioned ever since: start promulgating ideas, to get people to believe them, and then appeal to the fact that they have (the ad populum fallacy).

And then, over and against their Roman Catholic opponents, the claim of these “first evangelicals” who agreed with Luther was not that they were doing anything new, but that their teachings truly were “holy, catholic and apostolic…” 

This claim is a demonstrable falsehood. Many things remained the same (thank God), but there were also many novel innovations and inventions, and no one who knows the facts of the matter can possibly deny that. It was a “mixed bag” from the Catholic perspective.

“The churches among us do not dissent from the catholic church in any article of faith,” they insisted. 

Right. And what would they call Luther’s fifty dissenting opinions, that Lutheranism largely followed? Permissible variations?

In addition to the nonsense about the role the Scriptures played in the church,

What’s “nonsense” is this accusation against the Catholic Church, as I thoroughly explained above.

the Pope had insisted he had full authority over temporal political matters and one had to believe this to be saved.

This was a widespread medieval understanding, and not exclusive to Catholicism. Luther thought that the Anabaptists were “seditious” and subverted not only the theological and ecclesial, but also civil order. He thought the same about the violent hordes of the Peasants’ Revolt, and Carlstadt and his image-smashers, Zwingli’s shocking rejection of the eucharistic Real Presence, etc. The medieval mind didn’t make much of a separation between the realms of Church and state.

In fact, Luther — along with Butcher Henry VIII — brought in the Church state, so that people were required in Germany to be a Lutheran simply by being born in a Lutheran-controlled territory of Germany. He treated princes as if they had authority in the Church, as if they were bishops (the old error of caesaropapism to some degree). How is that not meddling in temporal affairs? Yet Protestant polemicists so often have tunnel vision and a double standard, contending that only the Catholic Church had all these (real or merely imagined) problems, while ignoring the myriad of scandals and problems and endless sectarianism and radical mentalities and doctrinal errors / contradictions of many in the young Protestant movement and ever since.

Priests were forbidden to marry, in direct contradiction to Scripture.

This is not unscriptural at all. The Catholic Church was following St. Paul’s express recommendations for achieving an “undivided devotion to the Lord” (1 Cor 7:35) by celibate individuals (cf. “he who refrains from marriage will do better”: 1 Cor 7:38). Jesus said, “there are eunuchs who have made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. He who is able to receive this, let him receive it” (Mt 19:12). I guess Protestants can’t “receive” it.  They’re picking and choosing again, what will be accepted in the Bible, and what will be rejected. Priestly celibacy is a good thing, not a bad thing. We simply follow Jesus’ and Paul’s advice to a greater extent than Protestants do. But — here’s the thing — it’s difficult to be celibate, so Protestants throw it out, contrary to Scripture, which doesn’t do so, simply because something is difficult.  The Bible teaches that “I can do all things in him who strengthens me” (Phil 4:13). I add that priests are allowed to marry in the eastern rites of the Catholic Church, because this is a “disciplinary” or pastoral matter, not a doctrinal or dogmatic one.

In conjunction with secular authorities, the offices of the bishops were often given to the highest bidders. 

Yes; that was scandalous; so were Lutherans and other Protestants pretending that secular bishops (many of whom cared not a whit about Christianity or morals in general) were quasi-bishops. There is enough sin and corruption and ignoring of the Bible to go around.

People became monks specifically because the Roman church taught and promised it was the surest way to achieve salvation by their increased merit. 

Heroic, exceptionally sacrificial sanctity or what is called the “evangelical counsels” is indeed one way to be more sure that we will attain heaven. See the many Bible passages about merit and sanctification tied directly to justification.

Laypersons were told that they could eliminate thousands of years of painful purging fire for their ancestors by “prayerfully” providing donations to the church.

The Papacy had recently expanded indulgences to include the claim of granting forgiveness itself… 

The Catholic Church — in the Catholic Reformation — reformed the practice of indulgences (which is itself a notion taught in the Bible). See my article, Myths and Facts Regarding Tetzel and Indulgences (11-25-16; published in Catholic Herald).

Also, men and women were given the body of Christ, but not the blood, which was reserved for the clergy. 

There was no theological / spiritual reason to receive both. There were considerations of the sacred blood possibly dripping, etc. But Christ can’t be divided, and is fully present in both the consecrated hosts and the chalice. I myself always receive only the consecrated host. See my article, The Host and Chalice Both Contain Christ’s Body and Blood (National Catholic Register, 12-10-19). Of course, we now allow both. It’s another pastoral / disciplinary matter, which can change according to place and circumstance; not doctrine.

In the Mass itself, the priests spoke of re-sacrificing Christ, and achieving salvation through this and other merits…

It’s not a “re-sacrifice” but rather, the one sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the cross supernaturally made present again.

But, above all, people were told that they could not be certain that they would even be saved… even make it to purgatory (for note that if you got to purgatory, you’d eventually get to heaven…). 

No one can be absolutely certain of what the future holds, because we are in time and simply can’t know that information. That includes the question of our own eternal destiny. Even John Calvin stated that no one but God can know who is of the elect. It’s folly and unbiblical (as well as irrational) to pretend otherwise.  We know that people fall away from the faith. We can’t be certain that we won’t. Catholics believe in what we call a “moral assurance of salvation.” I’ve always said that I am just as confident of my salvation (without being certain) as a Catholic, as I was when I was a Protestant. Catholics examine their consciences to make sure they are not in a state of mortal sin, that separates them from God and could possibly lead to damnation, if not repented of and absolved.

Right around the same time that Luther nailed the 95 theses to the Church doors in Wittenberg, the theologian Johann Altenstaig (in his Vocabularius theologiae, Hagenau 1517) was saying that the devil led people astray by making them think there was good evidence for their being saved. 

“No one, no matter how righteous he may be”, Altenstaig said, “can know with certainty that he is in the state of grace, except by a revelation”.

We can believe there is good evidence that we will be saved if we die in the next minute, through the examination of our consciences and confession if necessary (moral assurance) and the absence of subjective mortal sin, but it’s not certainty. He’s correct. Anyone who thinks they are absolutely certain of this is deluding themselves, short of an extraordinary revelation, just as he says. St. Paul argues the same way many times. He doesn’t assume he is saved once and for all time. That’s just Protestant man-made tradition. Martin Luther agrees with us: “one cannot say with certainty who will be [called] in the future or who will finally endure . . .” (Sermon on John 17; Luther’s Works, Vol 69:50-51). All agree that the elect will be saved and cannot not be saved, because God predestined it (yes, we believe in the predestination of the elect, too). But we can’t know with certainty who is in their number. That’s the problem.

In like fashion, one of the most important movers and shakers in the church, Cardinal Cajetan, wrote a few weeks before confronting Luther at Augsburg, wrote that “Clearly almost all come to the sacraments of penance and the Eucharist in reverent fear of the Lord and uncertain of being in grace. In fact theologians praise their continuing uncertainty and ordinarily attribute its opposite to presumption or ignorance” (both quotes from Cajetan Responds, a footnote from p. 269 and p. 66).

Once again, one Cardinal is cited; nothing from Trent or earlier ecumenical councils or papal encyclicals (which constitute the magisterium). So it carries no weight. I won’t bother checking context (I appreciate the documentation), but it looks to me like he is referring to a specific situation: the penitent approaching confession, which means they are conscious of some sin, and possibly mortal sin. I could see that they might have some uncertainty until they are absolved, at which point they are restored back to grace, and have a reasonable and fairly “high” moral assurance of salvation, were they to die on the way home, etc.

I don’t know why Nathan makes this a Catholic-Protestant issue, since Lutherans agree with us that a person can fall away from the faith and grace. One Lutheran, Joseph Klotz, in a helpful article entitled, “Three Examples of How Lutherans Deny Justification by Faith Alone: A Response – Part Two of Two” (6-29-15, SteadfastLutherans.org) observed:

The fact that confessional Lutherans teach that believers can fall away from the faith, while at the same time teaching that God earnestly desires all men to be saved shows that confessional Lutherans confess what the Bible teaches, . . .

This very issue comes into play when St. Paul discusses with Timothy the case of Hymenaeus and Alexander.

This charge [Timothy’s duty to order certain teachers not stray from pure doctrinal teaching] I entrust to you, Timothy, my child, in accordance with the prophecies previously made about you, that by them you may wage the good warfare, holding faith and a good conscience. By rejecting this, some have made shipwreck of their faith, among whom are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan that they may learn not to blaspheme (1 Timothy 1:18-20).

St. Paul is not saying here that Hymenaeus and Alexander will be judged in the temporal realm, by dying or some such thing, and suffer a loss of reward at the judgment seat of Christ on the Last Day, but still march into the New Heavens and New Earth, “as through fire.” He is saying that the very thing through which they would be saved, their faith, has been “shipwrecked.” It has been destroyed. The faith, which they once had as members of the Ephesian congregation, is no more. They have passed from life to death, so to speak. . . .

St. Paul similarly warns the Corinthians not to fall away from their faith into idolatry. . . .

It is revealing that St. Paul [in 1 Cor 10:6-11] uses the words “fell” and “destroyed” when describing what happened to those who continued in their unbelief. Again, he is not describing merely a temporal consequence of sin. Scripture tells us that these people, who were graciously delivered from bondage, persisted in unbelief. They resisted the working of God the Holy Spirit and eventually fell from the faith they had been given and were destroyed. Why does St. Paul recount this to the Corinthians? It is to be an example to them so that they do not similarly fall into sin, away from God, and be destroyed.

James Swan, a Reformed defender of Martin Luther (hundreds of articles) documented Luther’s belief in apostasy:

Through baptism these people threw out unbelief, had their unclean way of life washed away, and entered into a pure life of faith and love. Now they fall away into unbelief (Commentary on 2 Peter 2:22).

Verse 4, “Ye are fallen from grace.” That means you are no longer in the kingdom or condition of grace. When a person on board ship falls into the sea and is drowned it makes no difference from which end or side of the ship he falls into the water. Those who fall from grace perish no matter how they go about it. … The words, “Ye are fallen from grace,” must not be taken lightly. They are important. To fall from grace means to lose the atonement, the forgiveness of sins, the righteousness, liberty, and life which Jesus has merited for us by His death and resurrection. To lose the grace of God means to gain the wrath and judgment of God, death, the bondage of the devil, and everlasting condemnation. (Commentary on Galatians, 5:4; Luther’s Works, Vol. 27).

These words, “You have fallen away from grace,” should not be looked at in a cool and careless way; for they are very emphatic. Whoever falls away from grace simply loses the propitiation, forgiveness of sins, righteousness, freedom, life, etc., which Christ earned for us by His death and resurrection; and in place of these he acquires the wrath and judgment of God, sin, death, slavery to the devil, and eternal damnation. (Ibid.)

Cajetan incidently – like all of Rome’s “court theologians” – also placed the authority of the pope above that of a council, Scripture, and everything in the church… 

He is above a council and the Church, but not above Scripture. This is Catholic teaching. So even if good ol’ Cardinal Cajetan and all these “court theologians” were wrong, it wouldn’t hurt our viewpoint in the slightest. They have no binding authority. It’s just non-magisterial opinions. We don’t determine truth by the majority vote of a bunch of pointy-head theologians, as so many Protestants in effect do. When we do count heads and take votes (such as in ecumenical councils and papal elections), it’s from the bishops, who have biblically sanctioned authority in the Church.

Luther . . . was not about to give up the teaching about confession and absolution that his spiritual father, John Staupitz, had modeled for him and shared with him – and that Luther said had made him a Christian! 

But he modified an essential aspect of them, so in fact he did give them up.  Luther appears to apply the function of hearing a confession and giving absolution to all Christians, not solely to ordained Lutheran pastors: “. . . confession, privately before any brother, . . .” (The Babylonian Captivity of the Church, 1520, in Three Treatises, 214). The Apology for the Augsburg Confession, written by Luther’s close friend Philip Melanchthon in 1531, and binding on Lutherans, describes absolution as a sacrament.

For Paul, clearly, says that we are justified by faith in many places, without mentioning anything else.

That doesn’t logically rule out a role for works, as part and parcel of faith. Initial justification by faith is a thing we agree on. Justification by faith alone all through one’s life is where we have an honest disagreement. I have compiled fifty Bible passages that teach that works play a central role at the time of the judgment and in determining who will enter heaven (as the Lutheran Braaten noted above). Faith is only mentioned once in all of them (yes, once!), alongside works. I didn’t make this up. It’s in the Bible: fifty times! I’ve also collected 150 more passages that contradict “faith alone” and connect sanctification with justification in a way that Protestantism rejects, and that teach the doctrine of merit as well.

Nathan ends by citing Joseph Ratzinger (Pope Benedict XVI), and thinks he supported faith alone. I congratulation him for finally citing a magisterial source, right before he concluded. But even this may be from the time before he was pope (hence, not magisterial, if so). He provides no documentation, so we don’t know what it’s from, but I’ll have to take his word for its accuracy. The words as he presents them, however, do not support faith alone; quite the contrary. The pope writes:

Faith is looking at Christ, entrusting oneself to Christ, being united to Christ, conformed to Christ, to his life [which entails works, which he equates with faith]. And the form, the life of Christ, is love [love involves works and action as well]; hence to believe is to conform to Christ [works] and to enter into his love. So it is that in the Letter to the Galatians in which he primarily developed his teaching on justification St Paul speaks of faith that works through love (cf. Gal 5:14). [exactly; the Catholic position, and not harmonious with Protestant soteriology! Works cannot be formally separated from the overall equation] [my bracketed comments]

Related Reading 

William of Ockham, Nominalism, Luther, & Early Protestant Thought [10-3-02; abridged on 10-10-17]

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Medieval Catholic Corruption: Main Cause of Protestant Revolt? [6-2-03; revised slightly: 1-20-04; 10-10-17]
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Luther Film (2003): Detailed Catholic Critique [10-28-03; abridged with revised links on 3-6-17]
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Critique of Ten Exaggerated Claims of the “Reformation” [10-31-17; its 500th anniversary date]
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Papal Infallibility Doctrine: History (Including Luther’s Dissent at the Leipzig Disputation in 1519) (Related also to the particular circumstances of the origins of sola Scriptura) [10-8-07]
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Practical Matters: Perhaps some of my 4,500+ free online articles (the most comprehensive “one-stop” Catholic apologetics site) or fifty-three books have helped you (by God’s grace) to decide to become Catholic or to return to the Church, or better understand some doctrines and why we believe them.
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Or you may believe my work is worthy to support for the purpose of apologetics and evangelism in general. If so, please seriously consider a much-needed financial contribution. I’m always in need of more funds: especially monthly support. “The laborer is worthy of his wages” (1 Tim 5:18, NKJV). 1 December 2021 was my 20th anniversary as a full-time Catholic apologist, and February 2022 marked the 25th anniversary of my blog.
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PayPal donations are the easiest: just send to my email address: [email protected]. You’ll see the term “Catholic Used Book Service”, which is my old side-business. To learn about the different methods of contributing, including 100% tax deduction, etc., see my page: About Catholic Apologist Dave Armstrong / Donation InformationThanks a million from the bottom of my heart!
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Photo credit: Portrait of Martin Luther (1528), by Lucas Cranach the Elder (1472-1553) [public domain / Wikimedia Commons]
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Summary: I take on a sermon about the essential points of the Protestant so-called “Reformation”, by Nathan Rinne, and show that Catholicism is more biblical & historical.

 

2023-09-18T19:52:26-04:00

Mortgage Interest / Inflation / Taxes / “Rainy Day” Fundraiser

Day Four: Fifteen Books That I Have Edited
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I habitually say that I have “written” 54 books (this latest tally includes my book-length debate with a Calvinist on justification), but that’s not precisely accurate, since I only edited fifteen of those books, leaving 39 that I actually “wrote” myself.
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Today I want to present little summaries of these fifteen edited books, to give readers and followers an idea of the scope and range of my research / writing projects.
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Collection of writings from the Church fathers that exhibit support of distinctively Catholic doctrines and rejection of distinctively Protestant ones.
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2) The Wisdom of Mr. Chesterton: The Very Best Quotes, Quips, and Cracks from the Pen of G. K. Chesterton (completed Oct. 2008; “officially” published Dec. 2009 by TAN Books / St. Benedict Press)
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Collection of quotations from the great writer who is widely considered the preeminent Christian and Catholic apologist in the first third of the 20th century.
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3) Bible Proofs for Catholic Truths: A Source Book for Apologists and Inquirers (August 2009; published by Sophia Institute Press)
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Over 2,000 Bible verses presented in their entirety and specifically categorized in order to provide abundant biblical support for various Catholic doctrines. Only a small amount of “summary” writings of my own.
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4) The Quotable Newman: A Definitive Guide to His Central Thoughts and Ideas (completed Aug. 2011; published Oct. 2012 by Sophia Institute Press; Foreword by Joseph Pearce)
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Collection of quotations from this giant of 19th century Christianity: a brilliant thinker, preacher, apologist, teacher and famous convert to Catholicism.
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Arguments from 12 great apologists: More, Erasmus, Suárez, Francis de Sales, Bossuet, Pascal, Wiseman, Ullathorne, Benson, Gibbons, Prat, and Adam.
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6) The Quotable Wesley (completed May 2012; published April 2014 by Beacon Hill Press, a Protestant publisher)
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Quotations from the wise and spiritual Anglican founder of Methodism, and zealous Christian reformer and evangelist; many affinities with Catholicism.
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Quotations from St. Augustine: widely considered the greatest Church father, and often claimed as the direct forerunner of Reformed Protestantism.
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 The Quotable Summa Theologica (Jan. 2013)
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A helpful alphabetical summary of the theological ideas and arguments of St. Thomas Aquinas’ masterwork, designed to make his thought more accessible.
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Writings of eight Doctors of the Church: Basil, John Chrysostom, Gregory Nazianzen, Athanasius, Cyril of Alexandria, Ephraim, Cyril of Jerusalem, & John Damascene.
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290 more pages of quotes on a wide variety of topics from the 19th century Churchman, with emphasis on his personal letters, and lesser-known topics.
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A “biblical catechism.” The idea is simple but unique: 1001 questions are “answered” with a Bible passage: with 18 broad categories and 200 sub-topics. I wrote only in brief introductory questions: all leading to a biblical passage. So I painstakingly organized it, but the “star” is the Bible itself. It’s also available in Spanish and French.
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Compiled from fourteen classic Catholic mystics and contemplatives or works, drawn from 22 books, compiled under 215 categories, chronologically by date.
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My “own” NT!: a “selection” from two Elizabethan era Bibles (KJV / Rheims), and four British Victorian-era versions (Moffatt / 20th Century / Young’s Literal / Weymouth).
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Collection of Luther statements that Catholics would agree with. Nine broad sections and 113 individual categories, arranged chronologically within each category.
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Almost a “systematic theology” from Cardinal Newman, by use of many topical categories. Of particular usefulness for possible converts, as well as “uncertain” Catholics.
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The links to all these books provide much information, samples, and purchase information. Your generous financial support and shares and likes and comments and prayers and word of mouth recommendations help make all of this work possible. I can’t do it without you.
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I solicit only very rarely (as my regular followers / readers are well aware) but I’m in a financial place at the moment (through no fault of my own, but things like inflation and cars prematurely dying), where I have no choice. I explained all of that in my first fundraiser post, dated September 6th.
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Here’s the link to donation information, including 100% tax-deductible option, should you prefer that. If you think my work is worthwhile, and/or especially if it has helped you personally, please seriously consider supporting it with a generous contribution or commitment to a monthly recurring donation (even $10 or $20 a month is very helpful).
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Day Five: Sixteen Free Books That I Offer
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Recently, I decided to offer 13 of my books for free (as PDF files). And there are three more “books” that I offer in online links (one being five volumes long). It’s another example of many of how I keep putting out material at no cost to inquirers. I’m happy to do so. At the same time I do hope that some people will “recognize” such a willingness to offer free material, and financially support this ministry. You have the opportunity to do so today! Any amount is greatly appreciated.
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NOTE: During this fundraiser only, the 13 books offered for free will be available for a minimum donation of $10 for three books.
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1) Bible Proofs for Catholic Truths: A Source Book for Apologists and Inquirers (published in August 2009 by Sophia Institute Press)
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Over 2,000 Bible verses presented in their entirety and specifically categorized in order to provide abundant biblical support for various Catholic doctrines.
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Critical analysis of the biblical arguments(or lack thereof) in favor of “sola Scriptura” from the two men who are considered its very best historical defenders.
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Perhaps the three “hottest” topics in Catholic apologetics are dealt with in a dialogue format, from actual discussions engaged in online with Protestants.
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Many aspects of the journey to Catholicism examined, conversion stories, and the most extensive account of my own conversion (75 pages).
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Thorough presentation of biblical arguments in favor of trinitarianism, the divinity or deity of Christ, and classic orthodox theism. Bible verses in their entirety.
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Catholic and biblical analyses of the family-related issues of abortion, contraception, extramarital sex, divorce, homosexuality, and radical feminism.
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7) More Biblical Evidence for Catholicism (Feb. 2002; Foreword by Dr. Scott Hahn)
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Biblical arguments in support of distinctively Catholic doctrinal positions, with an emphasis on informality and dialogue; mostly drawn from real discussions.
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Selection of some of the best of my numerous theological and apologetic arguments, on a wide variety of issues: always emphasizing the Bible.
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Why does the Catholic Church and her doctrines appear different in many ways from the early Church? Development of doctrine is a crucial explanatory key.
Multi-faceted commentary on the various flaws and errors of Protestantism, in the style of Pascals Pensees: categorized brief thoughts or sayings.
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Critique of two very serious errors: that Catholicism is not truly Christian, and that one can pick and choose or modify Catholic doctrines as they so choose.
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12) Mere Christian Apologetics (Sep. 2002)
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A work of general Christian apologetics, without Catholic “distinctives”: intended as an introductory treatment of many of the basic apologetics issues.
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Devoted to an apologetic of general Christianity, over against secularism, agnosticism, and atheism; demonstrating that Christianity is rational and plausible.
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Compilation of 307 articles of mine for the National Catholic Register (29 September 2016 to 30 August 2023): enough material for five 215-page books (about 3 1/2 pages for each 1000-word article). This is a complete catechetical and apologetical explanation of the Catholic faith)
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We have a huge task in defending Holy Scripture in light of a rapidly growing, militant and condescending anti-theist brand of atheism and an aggressive anti-traditional secularism in general. They’re demanding (not always sincerely!) “evidence” and those who would or do believe want to see reason and science harmonized with faith, and I believe apologists can provide both things, and solidly so, in terms of arguments that can withstand scrutiny.
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The answers theists and Christians can provide are, I believe (perhaps surprisingly), solid and strong, very exciting, faith- and confidence-building, and informative. I’m not the “expert” here; I’m simply a lay Christian apologist discovering wonderful things about the Bible, archaeology, and history, and I’m thrilled and privileged to be able to share them with you: 100 sections of immersion in “Bible paradise” for those who love Holy Scripture, as I do, or those (believers or nonbelievers) who read out of curiosity and openness to being persuaded by the scientific and historical evidence presented.
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16) Justification Debate (vs. Calvinist Francisco Tourinho) (Sep. 2023)
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I recently concluded a huge debate on this topic, which will soon be published in a paperback in Portugese in Brazil. The English version consists of my replies and most of Francisco’s text as well (with links to his complete texts). When this fundraiser is done I’ll put up a web page with all those links. “Faith Alone” (sola fide) is one of the two great “pillars” of the so-called “Reformation” along with “Scripture Alone” (sola Scriptura), and I believe that I thoroughly disprove it, with scores and scores of scriptural prooftexts.
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See the links provided to all these books, for much information, samples, and purchase information. Your generous financial support and shares and likes and comments and prayers and word of mouth recommendations help make all of this work possible. I can’t do it without you.
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I explained my financial situation in my first fundraiser post, dated September 6th.
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See donation information, including 100% tax-deductible option, should you prefer that. If you think my work is worthwhile, and/or especially if it has helped you personally, please seriously consider supporting it with a generous contribution or commitment to a monthly recurring donation (even $10 or $20 a month is very helpful).
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Thanks as always for reading and God bless you!
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Summary: Explanation of the rationale and need for funds to support Dave Armstrong’s full-time apologetics apostolate. Please seriously consider a generous donation today!
2023-07-03T18:42:54-04:00

Jim Anderson appears to be a Presbyterian, and is a former Catholic anti-Catholic. The following exchange occurred on a public Facebook page, below a shared meme that I had posted, regarding Catholic liturgy. Jim’s words will be in blue. This is a continuation of the exchange: Dialogue on Meritorious Works & the Gospel (6-30-23).

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Dave, speaking to yourself is not a good sign. Please lose the extreme arrogance, and note that I said that I don’t hang around on Facebook waiting for people to comment, but have other priorities.
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Dave, you spent a lot of time throwing out a lot of comments, and links, likely none of which I will go to, since I have read practically every argument that official or unofficial Catholicism makes, but since you seem so focused on selling everything (per Matthew 10), we can remain there if you prefer. You said that it doesn’t apply to you (a “special situation”) and you haven’t sold everything.
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You’re not the only one I’m writing to. I take the opportunity to educate the public about these matters. Others may choose to read what you ignore, since you [choke] already know everything about Catholicism and all of the arguments that her defenders make. That being the case, why is it I have to ask you three times to answer simple questions about one Bible scene?

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Dave, do you think that Jesus was using the “sell everything” as a general requirement for salvation, or a specific test of the young rule? If the former, you are doomed, by your own admission, since you haven’t sold everything.

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I already answered that above (twice):
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1) “I never asserted that selling all of one’s possessions is required of *everyone*. You have simply erroneously projected that onto me and (possibly) the Catholic position. The parable of the talents and many other passages contradict such an assertion. So, nice try. Jesus told this one person that a work was required for his salvation. How can this be? How does it square with your unbiblical, extreme ‘absolutely no works or merit’ position?”
2) “Note that this isn’t required of every man to do. It’s not a general rule of Christianity. But for the rich young ruler, it was an absolute necessity. Most commentators think that it was because the ruler had made money his idol, putting it above God in his allegiance. That’s why he had to part with it; so that God would occupy the highest place in his life. In any event, it is a requirement for his salvation. Once again, it is a good work that is made central.”
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If the latter, then one cannot then generalize that works are needed for salvation, as Pelagius and the Catholic catechism said.
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Already answered that, too, twice:
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1) “If you say, then, that this passage is irrelevant for all people, since it was a unique situation, then I counter with Matthew 25 (already presented) which has to do with all of us at the Judgment, and with 48 other passages regarding works and their relation to salvation.”
[Note: I highlighted and cited at length Matthew 25 in particular and several others from my list of 50]
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2) “This is also notable in illustrating that salvation is not a cookie-cutter matter. What is required for one person (in terms of works that exhibit faith) may not be for the next.”
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The fact that you weren’t aware that I had answered these questions, proves that you’re not even reading my comments. This is a constant annoyance in “dialogues” with anti-Catholics as well. One gives a reply and it’s like it doesn’t even register and one is forced to repeat what was already stated: making for tedium for poor, unfortunate readers. The other tactic is attempting to switch the topic, in order to evade difficult topics.
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If the latter, then one cannot then generalize that works are needed for salvation, as Pelagius and the Catholic catechism said. And, do you notice the “follow me” at the end of all that?
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There is indeed a consistent message of salvation that Jesus taught. He is God. He came down from heaven. He is the Messiah, prophesied in the writings of old, the word of God, throughout history. And He emphasized, over and over and over, that one must believe in Him to be saved. Belief. True, sincere, total belief. That’s more than the demons, who only believed that He was God. One must believe that He is the Heir of all things, the One through Whom the world was created, the Exact imprint of God’s nature, the perfect High Priest, the Messiah, the only One who can forgive sins, by His perfect sacrifice on the cross, accomplished in history (“once for all”). Completely done, and wholly sufficient. You said you have questions. They tend to get buried in your many posts, so please kindly ask them again, numbering them, and not posting dozens of unrelated or repetitive comments that get things lost. Thanks.
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What are your questions? Number them. I am happy to continue on the topics you present, which are contradictory in your own opinion, but you seem insistent on the questions you have, so please present them clearly, numbered.
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For the fourth time:
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When Jesus said, and advised, “You lack one thing; go, sell what you have, and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me” (Mk 10:21), was that 1) salvific, and 2) a [good] work, and 3) a meritorious work? Do you need it in all caps? What is this, The Twilight Zone?
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Dave, thanks for clearly asking the questions so it is clear. I will bypass the snark, because that’s just how Catholics are.
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What you see as “snark” is a semi-humorous barb on my part due to the frustration of having to repeat something four times, that was perfectly clear the first time. It’s absurd. Once should be enough. You clearly attempted to avoid the questions, so I kept asking until you answered, because I don’t play games in discussions. If you want to have a serious discussion, great; then respond to provocative questions coming from your dialogical opponent (just as I have to yours: at great length), rather than seek to evade, change the subject, and insult: all of which you have tried without success, because none of that works with me.
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Of course, I recognize that you ask them not because you actually want to know the answers, but to take whatever I say, disagree with it, and make some sort of Catholic point. So, just be up front and make that point now, if you would be so kind.
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I converted from evangelicalism to Catholicism and have undergone several other major conversions in my life. I am always open to being convinced and to changing my mind. What I asked were socratic questions (something Jesus often did, too), that flowed from your denial that this passage teaches Catholic soteriology. If you want to take a position I consider unwarranted, and discuss it with me, then expect to be grilled and questioned. I’m an apologist. You’ll have to defend it. If that’s not to your liking, just say so and we’re done. “If you can’t stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen.” You came on like gangbusters at the beginning, so I figured that you could take it.
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Here are the answers for your questions.
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“When Jesus said, and advised, “You lack one thing; go, sell what you have, and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me” (Mt 10:21), was that 1) salvific?
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No, of course not. Man cannot absolve the debt of sin that he was born with my simply selling material things. Jesus in this passage was testing the man’s belief, his commitment. You yourself said that this wasn’t salvific. There aren’t 100 different gospels, different paths to salvation. There is but one, so Jesus did not teach that this work saves this person, but not others.
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It was certainly, undeniably salvific. Remember, the exchange started with the man asking Jesus: “Good Teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?” (Mk 10:17). That’s what it’s all about. Since that “sets the scene,” therefore, how Jesus answers must necessarily have to do with what we do that merits eternal life and eschatological salvation.
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You say that Jesus “was testing the man’s belief, his commitment.” Yes, of course He was. He said that he had to give away all that he owned in order to be saved. That was the test, and the answer to his question. It’s clear that grace enabled him to keep the commandments (as Jesus inquired about). It’s equally clear that the man had faith, since he had observed all the commandments since his youth. He was following God and His commandments.
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What remained was his idolatry to money: the besetting sin of rich and wealthy people. He couldn’t be saved and still have something in his heart that he placed above allegiance to God. And how would he rectify that? It wasn’t by kneeling and saying the sinner’s prayer, and telling Jesus how great and wonderful He was.
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That didn’t cut it, since Jesus said, “Why do you call me `Lord, Lord,’ and not do what I tell you?” (Lk 6:46). So this was an instance of Jesus telling a person to do something, and to do a thing that would be a requirement for him to be saved. If he does the good work, he’ll be saved, because Jesus said the result of doing so was that he “will have treasure in heaven.” This was the one thing he lacked, according to Jesus; so he had to do it. Therefore, it was a required good work, without which he could not and would not be saved or enter heaven.
“and 2) a [good] work?”
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It depends on your definition of “good” and that’s not hedging, it’s acknowledging that what God defines as “good” may be different than how men define it. You know this, so hopefully there is no controversy here. Giving help to the poor is a good thing. 
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Well, that is easily answered in this instance because Jesus defined the thing as the work or action that would allow this man to go to heaven and be saved. Therefore, it must be “good” because certainly a bad work or action (a sin) could not fill that function. So this is a no-brainer. Of course it is a good work, according to God the Son.
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Your problem and dilemma is that you maintain the standard Calvinist- or Baptist- or evangelical-type position that works have absolutely nothing to do with salvation. But the Bible and Jesus assert that they have a necessary connection, alongside (always) faith and grace. They can’t be removed from the equation. I have collected 50 passages that prove this undeniable connection with regard to going to heaven, and fifty more from Paul alone that teach the intrinsic harmony and togetherness of faith, grace, and works. You can try to ignore and dismiss and rationalize all that away but it’s just not possible.
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“and 3) a meritorious work?”
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Not for salvation, no.
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It’s impossible to assert that because it is directly contrary to what Jesus taught: that this work would be what allowed the man to be saved, alongside his faith and God’s enabling grace that lies behind any and every good thing we do.
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But, whether for the saved believer, or the unsaved and condemned person, works are “rewarded”. The saved believer receives crowns in heaven based on his or her works, but that is after they are saved.
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The unsaved, condemned person gets their “reward” that all deserve at birth: an eternity in hell, regardless of whether they give to the poor all their lives. Good works, the ones that are worthy and obedient to God, are those that are done by the saved believer. Ephesians 2:10, but there are lots of teachings on this. This answers your questions fully, and completely.
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We do indeed receive differential rewards in heaven. Both sides agree about that. But that’s not what is in play here. The question was how a man can attain heaven, not just rewards in heaven. Jesus’ answer proved that the man would be in heaven if he did the required work. It’s a compelling proof of Catholic soteriology and an unanswerable disproof of Protestant soteriology.
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Jesus didn’t say that the ruler was already saved and that he’d get more crowns in heaven by giving away his riches. He said that doing so would be the immediate or last thing that saved him, per the original inquiry of how to be saved. You’re simply projecting Protestant traditions of men onto the passage when they aren’t there at all. That’s eisegesis, not exegesis.
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How would a Catholic properly, biblically answer the unbiblical, sloganistic questions of certain evangelical Protestants, like Presbyterian Matt Slick, who runs the CARM website? He asked me: “If you were to die tonight and face judgment and God were to ask you why He should let you into heaven, what would you tell Him? Just curious.”
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He’s completely well-intentioned and has the highest motivations. He desires that folks should be saved. But he is dead wrong in his assumptions, when they are weighed against the overwhelming, (far as I can tell) unanimous biblical record. Our answer to his question and to God when we stand before Him, could incorporate any one or all of the following 50 responses: all perfectly biblical, and many right from the words of God Himself:
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1) I am characterized by righteousness.
2) I have integrity.
3) I’m not wicked.
4) I’m upright in heart.
5) I’ve done good deeds.
6) I have good ways.
7) I’m not committing abominations.
8 ) I have good conduct.
9) I’m not angry with my brother.
10) I’m not insulting my brother.
11) I’m not calling someone a fool.
12) I have good fruits.
13) I do the will of God.
14) I hear Jesus’ words and do them.
15) I endured to the end.
16) I fed the hungry.
17) I provided drink to the thirsty.
18) I clothed the naked.
19) I welcomed strangers.
20) I visited the sick.
21) I visited prisoners.
22) I invited the poor and the maimed to my feast.
23) I’m not weighed down with dissipation.
24) I’m not weighed down with drunkenness.
25) I’m not weighed down with the cares of this life.
26) I’m not ungodly.
27) I don’t suppress the truth.
28) I’ve done good works.
29) I obeyed the truth.
30) I’m not doing evil.
31) I have been a “doer of the law.”
32) I’ve been a good laborer and fellow worker with God.
33) I’m unblameable in holiness.
34) I’ve been wholly sanctified.
35) My spirit and soul and body are sound and blameless.
36) I know God.
37) I’ve obeyed the gospel.
38) I’ve shared Christ’s sufferings.
39) I’m without spot or blemish.
40) I’ve repented.
41) I’m not a coward.
42) I’m not faithless.
43) I’m not polluted.
44) I’m not a murderer.
45) I’m not a fornicator.
46) I’m not a sorcerer.
47) I’m not an idolater.
48) I’m not a liar.
49) I invited the lame to my feast.
50) I invited the blind to my feast.

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I understand your position. You believe that Jesus gave perhaps many different paths to heaven, since when questioned, you acknowledged that you did not, in fact, sell all your possessions and give the money to the poor. You think that that means to salvation was just for one man. So, since I have accurately answered your questions (you disagree, but that only makes it a disagreement), please answer an important one for me.
So, since the entire bible is arguably contemporaneous, is there any message for the unsaved today that is the one gospel, the one path to salvation? And if so, what is it, in succinct terms?
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The gospel:
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Romans 1:16-17 For I am not ashamed of the gospel: it is the power of God for salvation to every one who has faith, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. [17] For in it the righteousness of God is revealed through faith for faith; as it is written, “He who through faith is righteous shall live.”
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Paul cites Habakkuk 2:4: “Behold, he whose soul is not upright in him shall fail, but the righteous shall live by his faith.”
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So this is faith and works, that go hand in hand, as in 99 other passages I have documented. Paul happens not to mention grace here, but of course he often does; for example, here is Paul discussing both grace and faith for justification and salvation:
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Romans 3:24-26 they are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus, [25] whom God put forward as an expiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins; [26] it was to prove at the present time that he himself is righteous and that he justifies him who has faith in Jesus.
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But in the chapter before he also stressed works as part of the equation:
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Romans 2:13 For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified.
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So, as I have reiterated again and again, for Paul, salvation is by grace, through faith, which by its very nature is manifested and worked-through by good works, that proceed from this same grace and faith. All of his passages considered together undeniably teach this combination, not faith alone.
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And of course Jesus agrees with this. He talks about faith in Him, and also many times about works being required for salvation. He doesn’t mention grace, but John 1:16-17 states: “And from his fulness have we all received, grace upon grace. For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.”
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You said something very profound, perhaps unintentionally:
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So, as I have reiterated again and again, for Paul, salvation is by grace, through faith, which by its very nature is manifested and worked-through by good works, that proceed from this same grace and faith.
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Yes, salvation is by faith, belief, in Christ alone and His perfect sacrifice on the cross. That saving faith, which is given by God’s grace and not merited, is manifested in the fruits of salvation, which is works. Thank you. You have now stated biblical doctrine on salvation, though you don’t recognize the many texts that you are told mean that you can earn salvation, but are actually a description of the saved believer. The entire book of 1 John, for example, tells the saved believer of his or her assurance, and what they now have, but it also serves as a test for unbelievers.

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You still don’t understand our view (or the biblical one). Don’t feel bad. Many many Protestants do not, because they’ve been taught so many caricatures and twisted versions of Catholic soteriology. It’s grace + faith, and an intrinsic and inevitable part of genuine faith — without which it is “dead” — is works. In that specific sense, these good works proceeding from both grace and faith are meritorious and necessary in the overall scenario of how one is saved and goes to heaven.
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I have not stated Protestant soteriological doctrine (that I used to believe as strongly as you do). You mistakenly think I stumbled into it because you don’t grasp the Catholic position on these matters, and you think I don’t understand yours. In fact I understand it way better than you do because I was an evangelical Protestant, too, was an apologist then as well, and have studied all sides of this issue for the past 32 years as a Catholic, and had innumerable debates and written books about it.
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Protestants separate good works into a separate, optional category, under the name of “sanctification” and claim that — while they are praiseworthy and important and ought to be present — they have nothing whatsoever to do with salvation. And they claim that they are done in gratitude to God for a salvation already attained (faith alone / imputed / extrinsic justification). You know the playbook and the talking points well, and have stated them in a textbook manner. There was no need because I already know what Protestants teach about it.
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My 100 passages, which you still blow over and don’t seriously consider, are not saying that. They tie works directly in as one necessary cause of salvation, alongside grace and faith. They don’t make works optional in the question of salvation. I showed, for example, that in the rich young ruler scene, the man’s salvation was directly dependent on whether he gave up his riches, which is a good and meritorious work (all of which you have irrationally denied), not simply mental acceptance of a doctrine in his head. The NT isn’t Protestant. Jesus and Paul would flunk out of Protestant seminaries.
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The rich young ruler is a quintessential example of what I’m talking about (that’s why it’s such a superb, unanswerable Catholic argument). He was saved by grace, through faith (he kept the commandments — works again — because he was faithful), and this faith would have also expressed its authenticity in an act of giving up his possessions (had he actually chosen that course), which would prove that he is no longer making riches his idol, and this would then allow him to go to heaven. It was the only thing he lacked, said Jesus.
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An “optional” thing is not described as a thing that one “lacks.” If I had chocolate ice cream for lunch, Jesus wouldn’t have told me, “one thing you lack: you didn’t have vanilla ice cream for lunch.” That’s absurd because one doesn’t talk like that about optional choices.
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In case anyone missed the point (and you did), Jesus states again that the whole thing had to do with how one is saved and how one goes to heaven:
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Mark 10:23-25 And Jesus looked around and said to his disciples, “How hard it will be for those who have riches to enter the kingdom of God!” [24] And the disciples were amazed at his words. But Jesus said to them again, “Children, how hard it is to enter the kingdom of God! [25] It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.”
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In other words, He was expanding upon the meaning of what just happened. The rich young ruler asked how he could go to heaven. Jesus told him how (do a good work proving that he had forsaken idolatry) and the man refused. So Jesus commented how hard it was for rich people to go to heaven. This one declined his chance to do so by not following Jesus’ advice.
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Yet you sit there and pretend that it has nothing to do with his salvation; only his rewards in heaven. Those notions are not in the text at all. If in fact they were, Jesus would have said, instead, something like, “How hard it will be for those who have riches to receive great rewards in heaven. It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to receive great rewards in heaven.”
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The entire scene would have read vastly differently if Jesus taught faith alone like Protestants do. He would have simply told the man to have faith in Him, and never would have mentioned the commandments or giving away his riches, just like you would likely never talk that way out on the street witnessing and sharing the gospel (as I have done hundreds of times).
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It’s extraordinarily clear what was going on there and what it means for soteriology. Only those who already irrationally, inconsistently hold to an unbiblical tradition of men fail to see it, because they refuse to see it. Jesus talked about this sort of thing:
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John 9:40-41 Some of the Pharisees near him heard this, and they said to him, “Are we also blind?” [41] Jesus said to them, “If you were blind, you would have no guilt; but now that you say, `We see,’ your guilt remains.

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Concerning your list, all of which are things that were contemporaneous to Jesus’ teaching, and while I believe that the bible is meant to everyone today, your hermeneutic may dispute that.
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Dave, this is not a snark, or humorous in any way, but your list uses the word “I” in each and every reason that you provide. According to you, your salvation is earned, merited by you. I would humbly submit that your works cannot erase the sin debt that you were born with, and which you earn every day. God is holy. You are not, and thus deserving of an eternity in hell as punishment….just like each and every created human who ever lived, myself included.
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There is a consistent teaching by Jesus Christ that tells us how we can be reconciled with God, and avoid the eternity of excruciating punishment in hell that we deserve. It is not clear that you know it. It is belief in Him alone, and in His “once for all” perfect sacrifice on the cross.
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2 Cor 5:21
John 6:37-44 (all of John 6, actually)
Romans 5:1-3
Ephesians 2:1-10
Titus 3:3-7
1 John 5:13

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Once again, you miss the context and the point I was making by ignoring crucial points and distinctions, in your rush to “prove” that I and Catholics supposedly believe in a works salvation, that we deny. This is always how anti-Catholics argue, because they are ignorant regarding this matter and blissfully unaware of it.
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I was initially responding to the classic Protestant evangelistic query (often expressed to Catholics). In this case, I cited the actual words to me, of Presbyterian anti-Catholic apologist Matt Slick of CARM: “If you were to die tonight and face judgment and God were to ask you why He should let you into heaven, what would you tell Him? Just curious.”
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This is why all my answers begin with “I”. I just didn’t say “because” in every one. In other words, instead of answering “Because I did work x and work y,” etc. I just said, “I did x,” “I did y,” etc. In doing so I was citing Scripture directly in every case (50 of ’em), in order to illustrate how the Bible actually answers this question. It turned out to be quite differently from what Slick and Protestants would have predicted.
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But Catholics don’t believe in salvation by works alone. We believe in the combination of grace-faith-meritorious works that always proceed from grace and genuine faith, as I have explained, and will not bother doing so again. That is not Pelagianism. And if you can’t figure out what the difference is, that fault lies with you, not with us. You’re blinded by your false and unbiblical “either/or” premises. We explain it till we’re blue in the face. I have at least forty articles just on this point alone, if you want to get up to speed.
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But you have already said you won’t read my links, because you know everything about us, so . . . “You can lead the horse to water, but you can’t make it drink.”
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You do not understand our teaching. I’ve never once met an anti-Catholic in 32 years who did. You are woefully in error about what we actually teach.
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If anyone wants to understand Catholic soteriology, I have made it easy for you:
I trust, if you are hermeneutically consistent, that you have sold all your possessions.
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I’ve never been wealthy, and never will be (as first a Protestant evangelist and a full-time Catholic apologist since 2001). Therefore, riches have never been my idol, so I don’t have to get rid of everything I own in order to get my priorities straight. I have many other sins God is working on, but temptation to great riches and making them my idol has never been a problem. If it were, God would require that of me, too, since Jesus said idolaters would not go to heaven (Rev 22:15; cf. 21:8).
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And Jesus taught (see John 6) that it is belief in Him alone that saves. “Repent and believe” is the gospel message. What is the will of the Father? John 6:40. Who is saved? John 6:37-39. Can there is assurance of salvation? Same verses.
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Jesus taught that belief in Him saved, if it is coupled with good works (which He referred to, I believe, more times than to faith). Both are the products of God’s grace. You keep bringing up John 6. I don’t know why. It teaches that reception of the Body and Blood of Jesus (transubstantiation) in the Holy Eucharist will save one:
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John 6:51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven; if any one eats of this bread, he will live for ever; and the bread which I shall give for the life of the world is my flesh.
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John 6:53-58 So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you; [54] he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. [55] For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. [56] He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him. [57] As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats me will live because of me. [58] This is the bread which came down from heaven, not such as the fathers ate and died; he who eats this bread will live for ever.
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Because “Many of his disciples” thought that this was “a hard saying”(6:60), they “drew back and no longer went about with him” (6:66: quite appropriately). It’s the only time in the NT besides Judas that a disciple was said to forsake Him, and it was because of the Real Presence in the Holy Eucharist: and so many folks today disbelieve in this express teaching, and thus possibly endanger their salvation. You’ll say it’s all merely symbolic talk. Nonsense. See my articles:
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John 6: Literal Eucharist Interpretation (Analogical Cross-Referencing and Insufficient Counter-Arguments) [8-15-09]
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John 6, the Eucharist, & Parables (Dialogue) [8-16-09]
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John 6 & Lack of Faith in the Real Presence of Jesus in the Eucharist as a Parallel to Doubting Disciples [2-14-11]
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Is John 6 About Holy Communion?: A Brief Summary for Those Who Deny the Eucharistic Connection Altogether [3-2-16]
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Vs. James White #5: Real Eucharistic Presence or Symbolism? [9-20-19]
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Apostasy of Disciples (Jn 6:66) & Protestant Commentaries [1-28-21]
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Was Jesus Unclear in John 6 (Eucharist)? (vs. Jason Engwer) [11-16-21]
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These are all listed on My Eucharist web page.
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You’re not grappling with the many relevant Bible passages I brought up, which has universally been the case with any Protestant who interacts at all with this reasoning, for fifteen years now, so we’re done here.
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Dialogue isn’t just one person presenting their view, and the other presenting theirs, and never the twain shall meet, and ships passing in the night. No; it’s interacting directly with the opponent’s arguments and arguing for another position that is sincerely believed to be superior. I don’t do a one-way / double standard routine, where I interact with all of my opponent’s arguments, but they ultimately ignore mine (or give one answer and refuse to address my counter-replies, as you did). I don’t have time for much of that. But I’ll do it for a short time, for teaching purposes.
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You refuse to do a true dialogue, so I have invested enough energy into this, and it’s time to move on. It did at least result in two helpful educational dialogues for my blog. I heartily thank you for that. I’ve come up with some new fresh biblical and logical arguments, too, which is a good thing, and they came about as a result of your intransigence and profound lack of understanding of Catholicism.
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God bless you.
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Last thing:
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You seem tied up in wealth as preventing salvation. God never once teaches that the wealthy cannot enter heaven.
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1. I’m “tied up” with it in exactly the same sense that Jesus was: it’s evil and will lead to hell if it becomes an idol.
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2. I never said that no rich man can enter heaven. I have made the previous point, and say that it is “difficult” for that to happen, precisely as Jesus stated.
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I wrote on July 1, 2014 in the first comment under my own Facebook post:
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Wealth is not bad in and of itself. Abraham and Solomon were wealthy; Jesus was buried in a rich man’s tomb. Greed, materialism, using and abusing the poor because of great wealth, and idolatry of money are bad.
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Related Reading
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Grace, Faith, Works, & Judgment: A Scriptural Exposition [12-16-09; reformulated & abridged on 3-15-17]

Bible on Participation in Our Own Salvation (Always Enabled by God’s Grace)[1-3-10]

Monergism in Initial Justification is Catholic Doctrine [1-7-10]

Justification: Not by Faith Alone, & Ongoing (Romans 4, James 2, and Abraham’s Multiple Justifications) [10-15-11]

Catholic & Calvinist Agreement on Justification & Works [2012]

Scripture on Being Co-Workers with God for Salvation [2013]

New Testament Epistles on Bringing About Further Sanctification and Even Salvation By Our Own Actions [7-2-13]

Dialogue on Faith and Works and the Relation of Each to the Final Judgment (vs. Bethany Kerr) [10-10-13]

“Catholic Justification” in James & Romans [11-18-15]

Philippians 2:12 & “Work[ing] Out” One’s Salvation [1-26-16]

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Practical Matters: Perhaps some of my 4,300+ free online articles (the most comprehensive “one-stop” Catholic apologetics site) or fifty-three books have helped you (by God’s grace) to decide to become Catholic or to return to the Church, or better understand some doctrines and why we believe them.
*
Or you may believe my work is worthy to support for the purpose of apologetics and evangelism in general. If so, please seriously consider a much-needed financial contribution. I’m always in need of more funds: especially monthly support. “The laborer is worthy of his wages” (1 Tim 5:18, NKJV). 1 December 2021 was my 20th anniversary as a full-time Catholic apologist, and February 2022 marked the 25th anniversary of my blog.
*
PayPal donations are the easiest: just send to my email address: [email protected]. You’ll see the term “Catholic Used Book Service”, which is my old side-business. To learn about the different methods of contributing, including 100% tax deduction, etc., see my page: About Catholic Apologist Dave Armstrong / Donation InformationThanks a million from the bottom of my heart!

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Photo credit: Christ and the Rich Young Ruler (1889), by Heinrich Hofmann (1824-1911) [public domain / Wikimedia Commons]

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Summary: Further exchanges with an anti-Catholic regarding meritorious works and the gospel, the rich young ruler, and about how Jesus Himself said we could be saved.

2023-05-25T09:54:53-04:00

Eucharist & Sacrifice; Baptism; Salvation of Non-Christians(?); Confession; Theological Liberals (& Pope Francis); Ordination; Church Indefectibility 

The late Steve Hays (1959-2020) was a Calvinist (and anti-Catholic) apologist, who was very active on his blog, called Triablogue (now continued by Jason Engwer). His 695-page self-published book, Catholicism a collection of articles from his site — has graciously been made available for free. On 9 September 2006, Hays was quite — almost extraordinarily — charitable towards me. He wrote then:

I don’t think I’ve ever accused him of being a traitor or apostate or infidel. . . . I have nothing to say, one way or the other, regarding his state of grace. But his sincerity is unquestionable. I also don’t dislike him. . . . I don’t think there’s anything malicious about Armstrong—unlike some people who come to mind. In addition, I don’t think I’ve ever said he was unintelligent. For the record, it’s obvious that Armstrong has a quick, nimble mind. 

Two-and-a-half years later, starting in April 2009 and up through December 2011 (in the following quotations) his opinion radically changed, and he claimed that I have “an evil character,” am “actually evil,” “ego-maniac, narcissist,” “idolater,” “self-idolater,” “hack who pretends to be a professional apologist,” given to “chicanery,” one who doesn’t “do any real research,” “a stalwart enemy of the faith . . .  no better than [the atheists] Richard Dawkins or Christopher Hitchens,” with an intent to “destroy faith in God’s word,” “schizophrenic,” “emotionally unhinged,” one who “doesn’t trust in the merit of Christ alone for salvation,” “has no peace of mind,” “a bipolar solipsist,” “split-personality,” and a “bad” man. He wasn’t one to mince words! See more gory details.

I feel no need whatsoever to reciprocate these silly and sinful insults. I just wanted the record to be known. I’ve always maintained that Hays was a very intelligent man, but habitually a sophist in methodology; sincere and well-meaning, but tragically and systematically wrong and misguided regarding Catholicism. That’s what I’m addressing, not the state of his heart and soul (let alone his eternal destiny). It’s a theological discussion. This is one of many planned critiques of his book (see my reasons why I decided to do this). Rather than list them all here, interested readers are directed to the “Steve Hays” section of my Anti-Catholicism web page, where they will all be listed. My Bible citations are from the RSV. Steve’s words will be in blue.

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[Chapter 4: Catholic Apologetics]

The counsel of Trent, part 2.

The NT sometimes uses sacrificial language for the eucharist because the eucharist is the new covenantal counterpart to the Passover. That doesn’t imply that the eucharist is sacrificial. Rather, that draws attention to the fact that Passover prefigures the eucharist. The eucharist replaces the Passover. [p. 120]

Let me try to follow this: if the NT language for the Eucharist uses sacrificial language, it proves that it’s not sacrificial, because it is the NT counterpart for the sacrificial Passover? Huh? If it didn’t have sacrificial language, then Hays would no doubt argue, “see! It’s not sacrificial!” But if it does use such language, Hays argues, “see! It’s not sacrificial!” Makes perfect sense, right? See my book chapter, The Sacrifice of the Mass: A Lamb . . . Slain [3-8-92; rev. May 1996]. St. Paul is quite clear:

1 Corinthians 10:16-21 The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not a participation in the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ? [17] Because there is one bread, we who are many are one body, for we all partake of the one bread. [18] Consider the people of Israel; are not those who eat the sacrifices partners in the altar? [19] What do I imply then? That food offered to idols is anything, or that an idol is anything? [20] No, I imply that what pagans sacrifice they offer to demons and not to God. I do not want you to be partners with demons. [21] You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons. You cannot partake of the table of the Lord and the table of demons.

1 Corinthians 11:23-30 For I received from the Lord what I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus on the night when he was betrayed took bread, [24] and when he had given thanks, he broke it, and said, “This is my body which is for you. Do this in remembrance of me.” [25] In the same way also the cup, after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me.” [26] For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes. [27] Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the body and blood of the Lord. [28] Let a man examine himself, and so eat of the bread and drink of the cup. [29] For any one who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment upon himself. [30] That is why many of you are weak and ill, and some have died.

Protestants (as with John 6) try to undermine and ignore the obvious realism of these passages, but they fail. It’s too obvious.

Moreover, Scripture makes metaphorical usage of sacrificial imagery. For instance, Paul uses sacrificial language in Rom 12:1, but that’s figurative rather than literal. He’s not advocating that Christians commit self-immolation. [p. 120]

But that’s a different use of the word “sacrifice” altogether, and so is irrelevant to this discussion. It’s similar to Hebrews 13:16: “Do not neglect to do good and to share what you have, for such sacrifices are pleasing to God.” W. E. Vine’s Expository Dictionary of NT Words defines the latter instance as “doing good to others and communicating with their needs.”

Jn 6 foreshadows the crucifixion (Jn 19) rather than the eucharist. Jesus is forecasting his death on the cross. [p. 120]

How does eating Jesus’ flesh and drinking His blood relate to the crucifixion? Hays is really straining at gnats here. Jesus in John 6 compares Himself to the manna in the wilderness:

John 6:48-51 I am the bread of life. [49] Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died. [50] This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that a man may eat of it and not die. [51] I am the living bread which came down from heaven; if any one eats of this bread, he will live for ever; and the bread which I shall give for the life of the world is my flesh.”

Jn 6 can’t refer to communion because Jesus says eating-drinking/believing-coming terminates hunger and thirst (v35). But communion doesn’t put an end to physical appetite. [p. 120]

John 6:35 Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; he who comes to me shall not hunger, and he who believes in me shall never thirst.

Jesus is obviously talking about spiritual things: whoever comes to Him (believes in Him, partakes in the Eucharist) won’t have spiritual thirst and hunger any longer. Hays, in his woodenly literal, fundamentalist-type “exegesis” completely misses this. Compare:

Matthew 5:6 Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they shall be satisfied.

John 4:14 but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst; the water that I shall give him will become in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life.”

John 7:37 . . . Jesus stood up and proclaimed, “If any one thirst, let him come to me and drink.”

So it must have reference to figurative consumption, which is permanently quenched and satiated. It other words: a metaphor for eternal life. [p. 120]

This is closer to the truth. Yes, those who come to and believe in Jesus will have eternal life. But they also obtain it through the Holy Eucharist; not merely belief in one’s head:

John 6:51 . . . if any one eats of this bread, he will live for ever; and the bread which I shall give for the life of the world is my flesh.

John 6:53-54 . . . unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you; [54] he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life . . .

John 6:56-58 He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him. [57] As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats me will live because of me. [58] This is the bread which came down from heaven, not such as the fathers ate and died; he who eats this bread will live for ever.”

For that matter, Catholics don’t think one-time communion is spiritually sufficient. Rather, Catholics are supposed to attend Mass at least once a week. It doesn’t put an end to spiritual hunger and thirst. [p. 121]

Jesus didn’t say it was a one-time thing. He was saying that this was a means to eternal life: partaking of His flesh, made present again at the Sacrifice of the Mass. Hays again employs a silly wooden literalism.  Jesus and Paul talked of partaking in the Eucharist “often” (1 Cor 11:25-26, above). And it’s done in “remembrance” of Jesus, which also strongly implies a regular observance (1 Cor 11:24-25, see above).

[M]odern Catholicism doesn’t regard baptism as essential to salvation. [p. 121]

Nonsense. Nothing has changed, as usual. Only in Hays’ head has the Catholic Church supposedly evolved into totally different belief-systems. It’s a fantasy of his own making. The Church has always held to baptismal regeneration and its being essential to salvation because it’s clearly and repeatedly taught in the Bible. See also the Catholic Catechism on baptism. At the same time the Church has always also recognized rare exceptions to the rule, and baptism of desire, etc.

Indeed, in modern Catholicism, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, and atheists can be saved. [p. 121]

Indeed, in the Bible, Paul alludes to the possibility of salvation for non-Christians:

Romans 2:13-16 For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified. [14] When Gentiles who have not the law do by nature what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. [15] They show that what the law requires is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or perhaps excuse them [16] on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.

There are many other “ecumenical” motifs in the Bible, such as Jesus and the Roman centurion:

Matthew 8:5-12 As he entered Caper’na-um, a centurion came forward to him, beseeching him [6] and saying, “Lord, my servant is lying paralyzed at home, in terrible distress.” [7] And he said to him, “I will come and heal him.” [8] But the centurion answered him, “Lord, I am not worthy to have you come under my roof; but only say the word, and my servant will be healed. [9] For I am a man under authority, with soldiers under me; and I say to one, `Go,’ and he goes, and to another, `Come,’ and he comes, and to my slave, `Do this,’ and he does it.” [10] When Jesus heard him, he marveled, and said to those who followed him, “Truly, I say to you, not even in Israel have I found such faith. [11] I tell you, many will come from east and west and sit at table with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven, [12] while the sons of the kingdom will be thrown into the outer darkness; there men will weep and gnash their teeth.”

We also have the story of Cornelius, the Roman centurion in Acts 10. He is described as “a devout man who feared God with all his household, gave alms liberally to the people, and prayed constantly to God” (10:2), and it’s recorded that an “angel of God” spoke to him (10:3, 7, 30-32), saying, “Your prayers and your alms have ascended as a memorial before God” (10:4). The Holy Spirit Himself told Peter that He had sent Cornelius’ three friends to him (10:17-20), and indeed the Holy Spirit “fell on” Cornelius and his friends (10:44-46). All of this was before he was baptized (10:47-48). Peter testifies: “Truly I perceive that God shows no partiality, but in every nation any one who fears him and does what is right is acceptable to him” (10:34-35).

So none of this is “new” (supposedly only after Vatican II) at all. It’s right in the Bible. The Church fathers (especially Augustine) wrote about it, and so did St. Thomas Aquinas (13th c.). If Hays had actually taken time to study these matters, he would have known this. But here I am correcting him, and educating those who have only learned about Catholicism from Hays or other anti-Catholics. Hays knows the truth now.

There is general agreement that there is no firm evidence for infant baptism before the latter part of the second century. This fact does not mean that it did not occur, but it does mean that supporters of the practice have a considerable chronological gap to account for. Many replace the historical silence by appeal to theological or sociological considerations. [p. 121]

I don’t know who’s agreeing to that, seeing that infant baptism is taught in the Bible (a strong deduction, but still, I contend, taught).

[P]ublic confession . . . [is] hardly equivalent to confessing your sins to a priest in private. [p. 122]

As so often, Hays can’t see the forest for the trees. The essence of confession is declaring sins and repentance to a clergyman. Whether it is public or private is secondary and not of the essence. So public confession is a legitimate evidence for confession. For the true-blue Protestant (with some exceptions), any confession to men at all is senseless, unnecessary, and anathema; all must confess to God only. But the Bible teaches the former, so they have to grapple with it somehow.

You just pick a parish with a sympathetic priest or bishop. That’s easy to find. Lots of liberal priests and bishops to choose from. [p. 123]

See how Hays always has to highlight the liberal dissidents (that every group is blessed with)? Why is it he never seems to say, “lots of orthodox, faithful priests and bishops to choose from”? If I were recommending a Protestant denomination to someone intent to remain Protestant, I would tell him to avoid liberal denominations like the plague, and I’d direct him to one that is honest and actually follows its own stated beliefs; that is, one that is serious about the Christian faith and not just playing games. But for Hays, when he thought of “Catholic” all he could see in his head — for whatever inexplicable reason — was “liberals / heterodox / dissidents.” It’s like shopping for tomatoes at the grocery store and always picking out the squishy, blemished, half-rotten ones, and saying “those represent what tomatoes are supposed to be! They’re the real tomatoes.”

He [Trent Horn] tries to prooftext holy orders from 1 Tim 4:14. But that inference is complicated by alternative explanations: [p. 123]

The passage talks about the “gift” that Timothy had, which “was given” to him “by prophetic utterance when the council of elders laid their hands upon” him. Sounds like it could be ordination to me. But if Hays wants to discount it, then we have “And his gifts were that some should be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers, to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ” (Eph 4:11-12). Those offices are called “gifts” as well, and “ministry” and working for the Church is present in context. Did Hays wish to argue that no one is ordained; that there are no pastors, elders, etc.?

One sinking ship–or many lifeboats?

Protestants were hellbound. And that’s the position Rome used to take regarding everybody who wasn’t in communion with Rome. [p. 127]

That’s a lie, as already explained.

But nowadays, the Magisterium is flirting with hopeful universalism. [p. 127]

That’s a lie, too. There is no universalism taught in Catholicism. Universal atonement, however, is taught (the possibility of any individual to obtain salvation, given certain conditions).

Another problem with his [some Catholic real or alleged apologist’s] tweets is bigotry. To judge by what he said, it seems highly unlikely that he’s had many, if any, conversations, with evangelical philosophers, theologians, Bible scholars, and church historians. His uninformed comments are a textbook case of prejudice. In addition, he’s like a man standing in front of a burning house, which happens to be his own house, while he lectures the neighbors on how their house is an eyesore. We watch him stand there, scolding us, while right behind him we see his own house in flames. [p. 127]

Another problem with Steve Hays’ critiques of Catholicism is bigotry. To judge by what he said, it seems highly unlikely that he’s had many, if any, conversations, with Catholic philosophers, theologians, Bible scholars, apologists, or church historians. His uninformed comments are a textbook case of prejudice. In addition, he’s like a man standing in front of a collection of burning houses, which happens to be his own neighborhood, while he lectures the neighbors on how their house is an eyesore. We watch him stand there, scolding us, while right behind him we see his own row of houses in flames.

Pope Francis is an aggressive modernist . . . [Catholicism] is on fire, and the sitting pope is the arsonist. . . . Francis is unweaving the Catholicism of Benedict XVI and John-Paul II. [pp. 127-128]

He’s not a “modernist” at all, which is, I guess, the reason that Hays doesn’t document this beyond all doubt. It’s what he wishes to be the case, and so he believes it in the face of the facts. First Hays asserts that post-Vatican II Catholicism is already modernist, universalistic, etc. Now he does an about-face and makes out that Popes John Paul II and Benedict XVI were orthodox and traditional, while Francis is a flaming liberal revolutionary. Whatever works! Facts be damned! Consistency: what’s that?

Hays cited a Catholic claiming that Protestants did not have a valid Eucharist, but that the Orthodox did, and asked, “Is that the position of post-Vatican II theology?” [p. 129] Yes it is. That’s why Protestants are not allowed to receive Holy Communion at a Catholic Mass, because they have a different view and don’t agree with the Catholic view.

By the way, why does the Eucharist require a Catholic priest to be valid, but baptism does not? What’s the principle? Or is the distinction ad hoc? [p. 129]

Because the priest represents Jesus at the Last Supper (in persona Christi / alter Christus), and then presides over transubstantiation and the eucharistic sacrifice, whereby the one redeeming, sacrifice on the cross is supernatural made present. Baptism, on the other hand, was done by people other than Jesus from the beginning (“Jesus himself did not baptize, but only his disciples”: Jn 4:2).

“Ecclesial deism”

[N]on-Catholics don’t believe God protects his denomination [Catholicism] from heresy or apostasy. [p. 131]

Non-Catholics don’t believe God protects any denomination or Christian communion from heresy or apostasy. This is a big problem, because the Bible teaches that the one true Church is indefectible.

We don’t believe Christ founded the Roman Catholic church in the first place. [p. 131]

What “church” did He found, then, since we know that He did so, by the words, “I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it” (Mt 16:18). All in one fell swoop, then, we know that there is such a thing as a “church” and it is Jesus’ own, and that it is indefectible. And we know that its first leader was Peter (the early part of the same verse).If the Catholic Church isn’t the one that Jesus is, which claimant is that? Hays could hardly deny that Jesus established a Church, when the text is so clear. The problem then becomes figuring out how the powers of death can’t touch the true Church, when Hays and Protestants deny that any Protestant denomination is infallible or indefectible (which is part and parcel of the definition of sola Scriptura). Quite the conundrum!

Protestants like me don’t believe that God withdrew his protection of his people from apostasy. To the contrary, God preserves the elect from apostasy. [p. 132]

That’s a meaningless abstract notion, since we don’t know for sure who the elect are, and those who think they are in the elect can’t agree on all doctrines anyway. So any sense of observable non-apostasy is nonsensical apart from a claimed denomination that “has it all right.” And that’s exactly what most Protestants will refuse to identify, because their own presuppositions disallow it.

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Practical Matters: Perhaps some of my 4,300+ free online articles (the most comprehensive “one-stop” Catholic apologetics site) or fifty-one books have helped you (by God’s grace) to decide to become Catholic or to return to the Church, or better understand some doctrines and why we believe them.

Or you may believe my work is worthy to support for the purpose of apologetics and evangelism in general. If so, please seriously consider a much-needed financial contribution. I’m always in need of more funds: especially monthly support. “The laborer is worthy of his wages” (1 Tim 5:18, NKJV). 1 December 2021 was my 20th anniversary as a full-time Catholic apologist, and February 2022 marked the 25th anniversary of my blog.

PayPal donations are the easiest: just send to my email address: [email protected]. You’ll see the term “Catholic Used Book Service”, which is my old side-business. To learn about the different methods of contributing, including 100% tax deduction, etc., see my page: About Catholic Apologist Dave Armstrong / Donation InformationThanks a million from the bottom of my heart!

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Photo credit: The Whore of Babylon (workshop of Lucas Cranach): colorized illustration from Martin Luther’s 1534 translation of the Bible [public domain / Wikimedia Commons]

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Summary: The late Steve Hays was a Calvinist and anti-Catholic writer and apologist. This is one of my many critiques of Hays’ “Catholicism”: a 695-page self-published volume.

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