June 9, 2022

Lucas Banzoli is a very active Brazilian anti-Catholic polemicist, who holds to basically a Seventh-Day Adventist theology, whereby there is no such thing as a soul that consciously exists outside of a body, and no hell (soul sleep and annihilationism). This leads him to a Christology which is deficient and heterodox in terms of Christ’s human nature after His death.  He has a Master’s degree in theology, a degree and postgraduate work in history, a license in letters, and is a history teacher, author of 25 books, as well as blogmaster (but now inactive) for six blogs. He’s active on YouTube.

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The words of Lucas Banzoli will be in blue. I used Google Translate to transfer his Portugese text into English.

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This is a reply to Lucas’ article,“Catecismo católico refuta a apologética católica” [Catholic Catechism Refutes Catholic Apologetics] (12-18-15).

Lucas cites the Catechism: #818:

“However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers. . . . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church.”

The main argument of Catholic apologetics, and sometimes the only one, is that of the “Protestant division”, about which I have written dozens of articles that can be checked in this tag. Apologetic papists argue that all evangelicals are today under the “sin of division” either because they come from “Luther’s division” or because they are divided among themselves. . . . [T]his ridiculous argument is [refuted in] the Catholic Catechism itself, . . . 

As can be seen, for the Catholic Catechism, those who caused the rupture (in Luther’s case, in their view) have sinned, but those who today are born in communities arising from these ruptures have no sin of division. That is, the Catholic apologist who accuses believers today of incurring the sin of division is going against the determination of their own standard of faith. And that includes 99% of Brazilian Catholic apologists, who do not even know their own catechism, or who deliberately ignore it.

This is a correct point about something rather elementary in discussions of ecumenism and denominationalism, and I’m actually glad to see Lucas make it, because truth is truth. Whoever made the argument that Lucas describes above was wrong, and needs to study the Catechism and recent ecumenical documents. But #818 in the Catechism doesn’t refute Catholic apologetics per se (which is what his title falsely asserts), because a properly informed Catholic apologist would never make an argument contrary to #818 in the first place.

But noting this doesn’t get Protestants totally off the hook with regard to the scandal of denominationalism, as I will shortly demonstrate.

If we evangelicals have no sin of division, then let them find another, more decent argument to accuse us.

I’m more than happy to do so, presently! The sin of schism is only one aspect of denominationalism, and it applies only to those who chose to reject and forsake the Catholic Church in the 16th century. But it doesn’t follow that divisions, sects, and denominationalism thereby become wonderful, defensible, biblical things. This is my eleventh reply now to Lucas and he hasn’t written a single word yet in reply. Nevertheless, exposing his errors is a good thing, whether or not he is willing or capable of defending his own views.

The disease and anti-Protestant fanaticism of Catholic apologists are so blatant that they manage to put them against the Catholic Catechism itself, because only in this way can they keep their speech of hate and intolerance towards evangelicals standing.

As I said, whichever apologists (actual or in name only) who claimed this were wrong. Lucas didn’t document any. I’ve never seen (in 31 years of doing Catholic apologists) an actual credentialed, published, professional apologist writing in English, make this claim. Perhaps Lucas would document this, if he ever gets off his butt and musters up the courage to ever reply to me? I’m not denying that it exists, but I do deny that it represents mainstream Catholic apologetics. Nor does an attitude of hatred.

Now I shall devote the rest of this article to providing the biblical view of the wrongness and never-intended tragedy of endless denominationalism. Protestants today are not responsible for the sin of schism, but they are responsible for understanding the biblical teaching on the Church and to do their best in accepting it and applying it in their own lives.

In John 17:22 Jesus prays to the Father that the disciples would be “one, as we are one.” And in John 17:23, He desires that they (and us) be “completely one” (NRSV). KJV, NKJV: “perfect in one.” RSV, NEB, REB: “perfectly one.” NIV: “complete unity.” NASB: “perfected in unity.” Now, it is pretty difficult to maintain that this entails no doctrinal agreement (and “perfect” agreement at that). And, reflecting on John 17:22, I don’t think the Father and the Son differ on how one is saved, on the true nature of the Eucharist or the Church, etc. So how can Protestants claim this “perfect” oneness, “as we [the Holy Trinity] are one”? Or even any remote approximation?

The Apostle Paul commands: “mark them which cause divisions and offenses contrary to the doctrine ye have learned; and avoid them.” (Rom 16:17). In 1 Corinthians 1:10, he desires “no divisions,” and that Christians should be “perfectly joined together “in the same mind.” No one can say this is simply a “warm fuzzy” love and mutual recognition. Paul goes on to condemn mere “contentions” in 1:11, and asks in 1:13: “Is Christ divided?”

In 1 Corinthians 3:3, Paul says that whatever group has “strife and divisions” are “carnal, and walk as men.” In 1 Corinthians 11:18-19 he seems to equate “divisions” and “heresies.” He calls for “no schism” in 1 Corinthians 12:25, etc., etc. (cf. Rom 13:13; 2 Cor 12:20; Phil 2:2; Titus 3:9; Jas 3:16; 1 Tim 6:3-5; 2 Pet 2:1). Romans 16:17 mentions doctrine (didache). Galatians 5:20 condemns “strife, seditions, heresies”. Etc., etc.

H. Richard Niebuhr (Lutheran) stated that:

Denominationalism . . . represents the accommodation of Christianity to the caste-system of human society. (The Social Sources of Denominationalism, New York: Meridian Books, 1929, 6, 21)

Donald Bloesch (evangelical Protestant) observed:

There will never be real evangelical unity, let alone Christian unity, until there is an awakening to the reality of the oneness and catholicity of the church. (The Future of Evangelical Christianity, Garden City, New York: Doubleday, 1983, 56-57, 65)

And Carl F. H. Henry (a leading evangelical scholar) laments:

By failing to transcend their isolation and independency, evangelical Christians have virtually forfeited a golden opportunity to shape the religious outlook of the 20th century. (Carl Henry At His Best, Portland: Multnomah Press, 1989, 66)

Nevertheless, even the generally brilliant and insightful scholar and apologist Norman Geisler repeats the cliche which is the common Protestant response to these considerations:

Orthodox Protestants differ largely over secondary issues, not primary (fundamental) doctrines, . . . Protestants seem to do about as well as Catholics on unanimity of essential doctrines. (Roman Catholics and Evangelicals, Grand Rapids, Michigan Baker Book House, 1995, 193)

This is special pleading, in my humble opinion, but to get into why that is would require another long paper (which I have written). Besides the factual whopper, who’s to decide what an “orthodox” Protestant is? Geisler? Where does he get his authority? And who’s to decide what qualifies as a “secondary issue”? (oh, so much I could say here, but for time and space . . .).

The mutual anathemas started immediately with the “Reformers.” Martin Luther said Zwingli was “damned” (because he denied the Real Presence in the Eucharist) and John Calvin called Luther “half-papist” and an “idolater” (because he believed in the Real Presence in the Eucharist). I have a whole list of such tragic examples of Protestant “brotherhood.” Luther absolutely detested sectarianism and lamented, “There are as many sects as there are heads.” His successor, Philip Melanchthon, was a great deal more upset about it than Luther was, as we know from many agonized cries from the depths of  his soul.

Yet both neglected to see how Luther’s rule of faith, sola Scriptura, and the principle of private judgment, are literally what brought it all about. After all, if Luther could dissent against the entire 1500-year history of the Catholic Church, on what basis could he deny that anyone could dissent from him? And denominationalism has proceeded thusly ever since: perfectly consistent with the foundational principles of Protestantism, and never able to be solved within that system.

There is no “unity” in Protestantism in the biblical sense. I grant that there is (very broadly speaking) a “mere Christianity” type of unity, but why should anyone accept or settle for this “lowest common denominator” unity? I want all the truth and nothing but the truth. Why should any Christian tolerate error (which we know from logical necessity is rampant within Protestantism), when all lies come from the father of lies, Satan?

At least the so-called “Reformers” believed strongly enough in each of their sects to anathematize the “dissidents” outside of them. Today Protestants wink at differences and pretend that there is a unity in “essentials.” And as a result many of us (including myself, in 1990) have moved from Protestantism to Catholicism and have found at long last a peace and a consistent view of the Church and the rule of faith that isn’t viciously self-defeating.

Here are more Bible verses (RSV) about sectarianism, division, and denominationalism:

Matthew 12:25 . . . Every kingdom divided against itself is laid waste, and no city or house divided against itself will stand

John 10:16 . . . So there shall be one flock, one shepherd.

Acts 4:32 Now the company of those who believed were of one heart and soul, . . .

Romans 2:8 but for those who are factious and do not obey the truth, but obey wickedness, there will be wrath and fury.

2 Corinthians 12:20 For I fear that perhaps I may come and find you not what I wish, and that you may find me not what you wish; that perhaps there may be quarreling, jealousy, anger, selfishness, slander, gossip, conceit, and disorder.

Galatians 5:19-20 Now the works of the flesh are plain: fornication, impurity, licentiousness, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, anger, selfishness, dissension, party spirit,

Ephesians 4:1-5 I therefore, a prisoner for the Lord, beg you to lead a life worthy of the calling to which you have been called, with all lowliness and meekness, with patience, forbearing one another in love, eager to maintain the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call, one Lord, one faith, one baptism,

Philippians 1:27 Only let your manner of life be worthy of the gospel of Christ, so that whether I come and see you or am absent, I may hear of you that you stand firm in one spirit, with one mind striving side by side for the faith of the gospel,

Philippians 2:2 complete my joy by being of the same mind, having the same love, being in full accord and of one mind.

1 Timothy 6:3-5 If any one teaches otherwise and does not agree with the sound words of our Lord Jesus Christ and the teaching which accords with godliness, he is puffed up with conceit, he knows nothing; he has a morbid craving for controversy and for disputes about words, which produce envy, dissension, slander, base suspicions, and wrangling among men who are depraved in mind and bereft of the truth, imagining that godliness is a means of gain. (cf. 2 Tim 2:23)

Titus 3:9-11 But avoid stupid controversies, genealogies, dissensions, and quarrels over the law, for they are unprofitable and futile. As for a man who is factious, after admonishing him once or twice, have nothing more to do with him, knowing that such a person is perverted and sinful; he is self-condemned. (cf. Jas 3:16)

2 Peter 2:1-2 But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction. And many will follow their licentiousness, and because of them the way of truth will be reviled.

I wrote about this problem in my book, The Catholic Verses: 95 Bible Passages That Confound Protestants (2004) [also now available in Portugese]:

Again, we see the very strong biblical and Pauline emphasis on Christian doctrinal unity, yet the Catholic Church is criticized for teaching the same thing (and, naturally, locating the focus for this unity within its own Tradition). It is extremely difficult to rationalize away all of these passages and act as if they did not deal a crushing blow to Protestantism, insofar as it is clearly divided and hopelessly multiplying into further sects.

In my opinion, this is one of the most compelling and unanswerable disproofs of Protestantism as a system to be found in the Bible. But Protestants have no choice. They feel that Protestantism must be bolstered up as an alternative to Catholicism, no matter how many serious contradictions with Scripture exist within it. So they continue to try and explain away these Bible passages.

This is why the Catholic Magisterium, apostolic succession, the papacy, binding ecumenical councils, and the notion of an unbroken, continuous apostolic Tradition preserved uniquely by the Holy Spirit in an actual concrete institution are necessary.

As a remarkable example of this losing, futile battle with Scripture in the area of doctrinal and ecclesiastical oneness, I submit the argument of a Calvinist apologist whom I engaged in a “live chat” debate one night on the Internet. I first asked him, “On what basis — by what criterion — does a person discover truth within the Protestant system, seeing that all parties in that system appeal to the Bible, yet cannot agree on a host of issues?”

In particular, I wondered, why I should believe his view of baptism (Presbyterian: infant, non-regenerative), over against that of Martin Luther (infant, regenerative) and the Baptist position (adult, non-regenerative)?

He said that one should not “consult people but the Bible.” He later fleshed out a second response: the Bible teaches that disagreements are to be expected, thus they pose no difficulty for the doctrinal disunity within Protestantism.

My Protestant friend cited Romans 14 in support of his contention that doctrinal diversity on so-called “secondary issues” was permissible, according to the Bible. I knew a little bit about what was in Romans 14, so I asked him to tell me what particular doctrines were discussed in that chapter which would allow him to conclude that doctrinal division was acceptable.

He cited only the disagreement over the Sabbath, or the day of worship. I replied that this was irrelevant to our discussion since Protestants and Catholics agree on a Sunday Sabbath, and that pretty much the only dissenters are Seventh-Day Adventists. He could give me no other doctrine discussed in Romans 14, though he continued to refer to the chapter as a justification for Protestantism’s relativism-in-practice in many doctrines (what he described as allowable and fully expected “diversity”).

There is a good reason why no more examples from Romans 14 were given: the chapter deals only with quite “undoctrinal” matters, such as what we should eat or not eat (14:2-3, 14-17), and esteeming one day above another (14:5). That is all that is there!

Yet this professional Calvinist apologist appealed to this passage in defense of his notion that doctrinal issues like baptism and the Eucharist are entirely matters of individual discretion, admitting of diverse viewpoints, and that no one should be troubled by the fact that Protestants cannot agree among themselves. This is not only a weak biblical argument; it is expressly contrary to the passages above.

The exceedingly serious problem of denominationalism exists in Protestantism and always will, for it cannot be overcome by any Protestant internal principles, no matter how nuanced or sophisticated or in line with “Reformation heritage.” Protestantism cannot settle its internal differences; each branch or sect can only (ultimately arbitrarily) assert its own authority.

Thus, Calvin asserts his own authority, Luther his, Zwingli and Menno Simons (Mennonites) and George Fox (Quakers) and William Booth (Salvation Army) theirs. Many independent Protestants today claim to be subject to no leaders or traditions, yet inevitably follow their own traditions. Protestants have no way of resolving these “denominational dichotomies.” They will continue to split, and each party or faction will justify its split based on appeals to the one Bible.

To put it in very practical terms: how does the man on the street, who has to choose between competing factions, determine truth under Protestant assumptions? He has to choose whether Calvin or Luther is right (then go on to choose among the competing Lutheran or Calvinist camps. Why should Calvin have any more authority than Luther had? Each simply claimed it for himself (as anointed from on high) and demanded allegiance.

In the final analysis, the Protestant is forced to appeal to one of two equally insufficient and unsatisfactory solutions:

A) Claim that his own brand of Protestantism is the true one to be believed above all others. This was, of course, the standard approach taken by virtually all the early Protestant factions (thus they rather comically and ironically anathematized and damned each other).

B) Pretend that doctrines on which Protestants disagree (almost always doctrines other than those on which they agree even with Catholics and Orthodox) are “secondary” and not important enough to fight over. I often describe this as a de facto doctrinal relativism, and it is the usual course taken today. . . .

“Solutions” A and B are equally unbiblical, unhistorical, and illogical. Calvin’s position is also ultimately incoherent and clashes with his doctrine of the invisible Church (examined earlier). The problems cannot be resolved. Catholics can at least offer internally coherent and consistent answers and solutions to these vexing problems of authority, whereas the Protestant system always inevitably breaks down at some point. (ch. 2, pp. 25-29)

If the above weren’t more than enough to massively prove the unbiblical and anti-biblical nature of denominationalism, there are dozens of verses proclaiming that there is but one “truth” and one “faith” and one “doctrine” and one “teaching.” I compiled these  in my book, Bible Proofs for Catholic Truths (2009). That mostly used the KJV for copyright reasons, but here I will continue to provide RSV:

“The Truth”

Romans 2:8 but for those who are factious and do not obey the truth, but obey wickedness, there will be wrath and fury.

1 Corinthians 2:13 And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who possess the Spirit.

2 Corinthians 4:2 We have renounced disgraceful, underhanded ways; we refuse to practice cunning or to tamper with God’s word, but by the open statement of the truth we would commend ourselves to every man’s conscience in the sight of God.

2 Corinthians 11:10 . . . the truth of Christ is in me . . .

2 Corinthians 13:8  For we cannot do anything against the truth, but only for the truth.

Galatians 5:7 You were running well; who hindered you from obeying the truth?

Ephesians 1:13 In him you also, who have heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and have believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, (cf. 6:14)

Colossians 1:5 because of the hope laid up for you in heaven. Of this you have heard before in the word of the truth, the gospel

2 Thessalonians 2:10-13  and with all wicked deception for those who are to perish, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. Therefore God sends upon them a strong delusion, to make them believe what is false, so that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.  But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God chose you from the beginning to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth.

1 Timothy 2:4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

1 Timothy 3:15 if I am delayed, you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth.

1 Timothy 4:3    . . . those who believe and know the truth.

2 Timothy 1:13-14 Follow the pattern of the sound words which you have heard from me . . . guard the truth which has been entrusted to you by the Holy Spirit who dwells within us. 

2 Timothy 2:18 who have swerved from the truth by holding that the resurrection is past already. . . .

2 Timothy 2:25 . . . God may perhaps grant that they will repent and come to know the truth,

2 Timothy 3:7-8 who will listen to anybody and can never arrive at a knowledge of the truth. As Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so these men also oppose the truth, men of corrupt mind and counterfeit faith;

2 Timothy 4:4 and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander into myths.

Titus 1:1 Paul, a servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to further the faith of God’s elect and their knowledge of the truth which accords with godliness, (cf. 1:14)

Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,

James 5:19 My brethren, if any one among you wanders from the truth and some one brings him back,

1 Peter 1:22 Having purified your souls by your obedience to the truth for a sincere love of the brethren, love one another earnestly from the heart.

2 Peter 1:12 Therefore I intend always to remind you of these things, though you know them and are established in the truth that you have.

1 John 1:6 If we say we have fellowship with him while we walk in darkness, we lie and do not live according to the truth;

1 John 2:21 I write to you, not because you do not know the truth, but because you know it, and know that no lie is of the truth.

1 John 3:19 By this we shall know that we are of the truth, and reassure our hearts before him

1 John 4:6 We are of God. Whoever knows God listens to us, and he who is not of God does not listen to us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error.

1 John 5:7 And the Spirit is the witness, because the Spirit is the truth.

2 John 1:1-4 The elder to the elect lady and her children, whom I love in the truth, and not only I but also all who know the truth, because of the truth which abides in us and will be with us for ever: Grace, mercy, and peace will be with us, from God the Father and from Jesus Christ the Father’s Son, in truth and love. I rejoiced greatly to find some of your children following the truth, just as we have been commanded by the Father.

3 John 1:1,3-4 The elder to the beloved Ga’ius, whom I love in the truth. . . . indeed you do follow the truth. No greater joy can I have than this, to hear that my children follow the truth.

3 John 1:8,12 . . . that we may be fellow workers in the truth. . . . Deme’trius has testimony from every one, and from the truth itself; I testify to him too, and you know my testimony is true.

“The Faith”

Acts 6:7 And the word of God increased; and the number of the disciples multiplied greatly in Jerusalem, and a great many of the priests were obedient to the faith.

Acts 13:8 But El’ymas the magician (for that is the meaning of his name) withstood them, seeking to turn away the proconsul from the faith.

Acts 14:22 strengthening the souls of the disciples, exhorting them to continue in the faith, and saying that through many tribulations we must enter the kingdom of God.

Acts 16:5 So the churches were strengthened in the faith, and they increased in numbers daily.

Galatians 1:23 they only heard it said, “He who once persecuted us is now preaching the faith he once tried to destroy.”

Ephesians 4:13 until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ;

Philippians 1:25,27 Convinced of this, I know that I shall remain and continue with you all, for your progress and joy in the faith, . . . Only let your manner of life be worthy of the gospel of Christ, so that whether I come and see you or am absent, I may hear of you that you stand firm in one spirit, with one mind striving side by side for the faith of the gospel,

Colossians 1:23 provided that you continue in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which has been preached to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, became a minister.

Colossians 2:7 rooted and built up in him and established in the faith, just as you were taught, abounding in thanksgiving.

1 Timothy 1:2 To Timothy, my true child in the faith: . . .

1 Timothy 3:9,13 they must hold the mystery of the faith with a clear conscience. . . . for those who serve well as deacons gain a good standing for themselves and also great confidence in the faith which is in Christ Jesus.

1 Timothy 4:1 Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by giving heed to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons,

1 Timothy 4:6 If you put these instructions before the brethren, you will be a good minister of Christ Jesus, nourished on the words of the faith and of the good doctrine which you have followed.

1 Timothy 5:8 If any one does not provide for his relatives, and especially for his own family, he has disowned the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.

1 Timothy 6:10,12 For the love of money is the root of all evils; it is through this craving that some have wandered away from the faith and pierced their hearts with many pangs. . . . Fight the good fight of the faith; take hold of the eternal life to which you were called when you made the good confession in the presence of many witnesses.

1 Timothy 6:21 for by professing it some have missed the mark as regards the faith. Grace be with you.

2 Timothy 4:7 I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith.

Titus 1:1 Paul, a servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to further the faith of God’s elect and their knowledge of the truth which accords with godliness,

Titus 1:13 . . . Therefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith,

Titus 3:15 . . . Greet those who love us in the faith. Grace be with you all.

James 2:1 My brethren, show no partiality as you hold the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory.

Jude 3 . . . contend for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints.

Revelation 14:12 Here is a call for the endurance of the saints, those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

“The Doctrine”

Romans 16:17 . . . take note of those who create dissensions and difficulties, in opposition to the doctrine which you have been taught; avoid them.

1 Timothy 4:6 If you put these instructions before the brethren, you will be a good minister of Christ Jesus, nourished on the words of the faith and of the good doctrine which you have followed.

Titus 2:10  nor to pilfer, but to show entire and true fidelity, so that in everything they may adorn the doctrine of God our Savior.

2 John 1:9 Any one who goes ahead and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God; he who abides in the doctrine has both the Father and the Son. (cf. also, “the Way”: Acts 9:2; 22:4; 24:14, 22)

The “Teaching”

Acts 2:41-42 So those who received his word were baptized, and there were added that day about three thousand souls. And they devoted themselves to the apostles’ teaching and fellowship, to the breaking of bread and the prayers.

Romans 6:17 But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed,

1 Timothy 4:16 Take heed to yourself and to your teaching; hold to that, for by so doing you will save both yourself and your hearers.

1 Timothy 6:1 Let all who are under the yoke of slavery regard their masters as worthy of all honor, so that the name of God and the teaching may not be defamed.

That’s an awful lot of biblical oneness and unity: expressly contrary to the very notion of a denomination or the rationale used to bolster it up, whereby supposed “secondary” doctrines don’t matter, so that they can be left up to individuals and sects to decide, so that in turn, massive contradiction and therefore, necessarily, massive amounts of error are sanctioned as perfectly fine and dandy: all utterly contrary to the teaching and entire tenor and spirit of the New Testament.

I never feel more sorry for Protestants (my esteemed brothers and sisters in Christ), than when they have to try to prove (or pretend or assume, or “live with the notion” as it were) that denominationalism is actually harmonious with the New Testament. There’s simply nothing that can be said. It’s a lost cause if there ever was one. Imagine formally debating it: “Resolved: Denominationalism is Entirely Consistent with Biblical Teaching”! It would be like arguing in favor of the idea that water isn’t wet, or that eating beef is completely consistent with a vegan diet.

I’m sure this “thorn in the flesh” gives many Protestants great pause, and even agony (as with the admirably conscientious but utterly blind-as-to-cause Luther and Melanchthon). But they feel that there is nothing they can do to resolve it (which is absolutely true within Protestantism), and that the only available solution (becoming Catholic or even Orthodox) is out of the question.

I’m here to try to persuade folks that becoming a Catholic is the most “biblical” thing they can ever do! The Catholic Church (human sins and all, just as all collections of Christians have sin) is the pearl of great price that many good and decent Protestants have been looking for their whole lives, never realizing that it was right in front of them all along, in all its battered, besmirched but unvanquishable and divinely protected glory.

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Photo credit: [Max PixelCC0 public domain]

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Summary: Brazilian Protestant apologist Lucas Banzoli throws out a “gotcha!” potshot against Catholic apologists re denominationalism, but entirely misses the larger NT point.

June 8, 2022

[originally posted on 14 April 2007]

The late Calvinist Greg L. Bahnsen (1948-1995) was an articulate (arguably the foremost and most respectable) exponent of presuppositional apologetics. Rather than summarize that point of view, I’ll let readers unfamiliar with this approach learn of it from one of its ablest proponents in recent times. I’m very interested at this point in going right to the heart of the matter and looking at what Scripture teaches, and how practical evangelism and apologetics (my abiding interest and vocation) can benefit from these insights.

I am delighted to be able to interact with someone who also incorporates much biblical exegesis into his analysis. The article cited below (in its entirety) is “Evangelism and Apologetics,” published in Synapse III (Fall 1974). Dr. Bahnsen’s words will be in blue.

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The very reason why Christians are put in the position of giving a reasoned account of the hope that is in them is that not all men have faith. Because there is a world to be evangelized (men who are unconverted), there is the need for the believer to defend his faith: Evangelism naturally brings one into apologetics. This indicates that apologetics is no mere matter of “intellectual jousting”; it is a serious matter of life and death – eternal life and death. The apologist who fails to take account of the evangelistic nature of his argumentation is both cruel and proud. Cruel because he overlooks the deepest need of his opponent and proud because he is more concerned to demonstrate that he is no academic fool tha[n] to show how all glory belongs to the gracious God of all truth. Evangelism reminds us of who we are (sinners saved by grace) and what our opponents need (conversion of heart, not simply modified propositions).

Agreed.

I believe, therefore, that the evangelistic nature of apologetics shows us the need to follow a presuppositional defense of the faith.

He merely assumes what he is seeking to prove (with the “therefore” and the “need”) that presuppositionalism is the only way to go about this. I will attempt to show why I think his conclusion is incorrect, in replying to his apologia.

In contrast to this approach stand the many systems of neutral autonomous argumentation.

This is a caricature of evidential apologetics, as I will also demonstrate.

Sometimes the demand to assume a neutral stance, a noncommittal attitude toward the truthfulness of Scripture,

This is the presuppositional (and I am using that word in the more generic, philosophical sense in this instance) baggage that Bahnsen assumes from the outset. But it is a false premise. Neither I nor any orthodox Christian evidentialist apologist I know of thinks like this. It’s a straw man. We do not take a “noncommittal attitude toward the truthfulness of Scripture”; there is no reason to believe that non-Calvinist, non-presuppositionalist or evidentialist apologists take, on the whole, a lower view of Scripture than Bahnsen does. I certainly don’t. It is ridiculous, then, to make out that this is the case.

Bahnsen, sadly, falls prey to the tendency in theological argumentation, to paint the opponent as a liberal dissenter from received orthodoxy, and/or one who lacks rudimentary Christian faith. This is not only erroneous and inaccurate; it is downright slanderous and the bearing of false witness against Christian brothers. I don’t have to imply that Bahnsen is a liberal in disagreeing with him. It is simply an honest disagreement on apologetic method. How sad that he seems unable to return the favor to those he disagreed with.

But that is, of course, the strong tendency in the anti-Catholic Calvinist approach (which — I hasten to add — is not that of all Calvinists, by any stretch). It’s not only Catholics who are read out of the faith, but oftentimes, Arminian Protestants also; or they are portrayed as “sub-biblical” (the term James White recently applied to William Lane Craig) or greatly compromised and barely Christian, if they are at all.

is heard in the area of Christian scholarship (whether it be the field of history, science, literature, philosophy, or whatever). Teachers, researchers, and writers are often led to think that honesty demands for them to put aside all distinctly Christian commitments when they study in an area which is not directly related to matters of Sunday worship.

This is true, and indeed an ever-present danger, but I think it is far more true of Christian academics than of apologists.

They reason that since truth is truth wherever it may be found, one should be able to search for truth under the guidance of the acclaimed thinkers in the field, even if they are secular in their outlook. “Is it really necessary to hold to the teachings of the Bible if you are to understand properly the War of 1812, the chemical composition of water, the plays of Shakespeare, or the rules of logic?” Such is their rhetorical question.

The Bible (quite obviously) doesn’t discuss many, many things. One must distinguish between:

1) when it is proper to involve the Bible in a particular discussion,

and

2) one’s own belief in the inspiration and infallibility of the Bible.

One can hold #2 with full vigor, yet not think it is necessary to bring biblical discussion to every particular discussion (the factor of #1). But Bahnsen seems to think that one must always do so, under pain of being accused of an alleged “neutralist” stance concerning the Bible or Christian faith itself.

Hereby the demand for neutrality arises in the realm of apologetics (defense of the faith). We are told by some apologists that they would lose all hearing with the unbelieving world if they were to approach the question of Scripture’s truthfulness with a preconceived answer to the question.

Well, this is a false dilemma. We can (assuming the appropriate education in apologetics and other competing systems) obviously approach the unbeliever (I do this all the time) with the following four propositions, which don’t contradict each other:

1) I believe in Christianity [in my case, Catholic Christianity] and the Bible.

2) I have many reasons why I believe in Christianity [and Catholic Christianity — but that should come later in the discussion] and the Bible, which I would be more than happy to present to you, as the occasion and need may arise to do so.

3) I can submit to you many reasons why you, too, should believe in the Bible and Christianity, according to your own presuppositions (especially the ones that you and I already hold in common).

4) At the same time, I can demonstrate to you how and why your own presuppositions lead to an ultimately absurd and false end result or conclusion, and that, therefore, Christianity is the ultimate truth and spiritual reality.

Now, how does such an approach violate the Christian belief-system or one’s own firmly-held principles or “integrity”? How is this a “neutral” stance? #1 clearly lays out “this is what I believe.” It is the furthest thing from a denial of that belief. But giving reasons for a belief is different from the belief itself, and can be undertaken in many different ways. The “what” and “why” of faith are two different things. This is obvious. And when arguing with someone of a very different belief-system (say, atheism) one has to discuss issues in terms that the person can understand, lest the endeavor of persuasion be completely futile and a waste of time.

If apologetics is collapsed into simply proclamation and preaching, then why bother to give reasons at all? That would be the death of apologetics. The “why” would be irrelevant and only the “what” of doctrinal content would matter. But reasoning presupposes that there are ways and methods to effectively persuade others (as St. Paul noted — see below). Rhetoric and method and “granting for the sake of argument” are not the same as chameleon-like changing of one’s views.

We must be willing, according to this outlook, to approach the debate with unbelievers with a common attitude of neutrality – a “nobody knows as yet” attitude. We must assume as little as possible at the outset, we are told; and this means that we cannot assume any Christian premises or teachings of the Bible. Thus the Christian is called upon to surrender his distinctive religious beliefs, to temporarily “put them on the shelf,” to take a neutral attitude in his thinking.

No one is “surrendering” anything! This is ludicrous. It gets to the heart of the matter, and illustrates the fundamental misconception that Bahnsen has of evidentialism (and this is common: I have encountered this fallacy many times). The crucial, supremely important distinction that must be highlighted here is between the two following propositions:

1) Apologist x believes a set of propositions y, concerning Christianity and the Bible (where y is defined as “Christian orthodoxy”, however determined: which is another huge discussion in and of itself).

2) Apologist x, if he is to do apologetics successfully and wisely, must find a reasonable, plausible method and way to present both y and especially the reasons for y (that we shall call a [apologetics]), without in the least intending to disbelieve any portion of y. In other words, presentation and personal belief are two completely different things. To argue effectively, one must understand his opponent’s point of view (ideally, even better than the opponent does himself). To then effectively counter and refute it, one must utilize methods that the opponent can relate to.

St. Paul expressed the same notion in the following terms:

1 Corinthians 9:19-23 For though I am free from all men, I have made myself a slave to all, that I might win the more. 20: To the Jews I became as a Jew, in order to win Jews; to those under the law I became as one under the law — though not being myself under the law — that I might win those under the law. 21: To those outside the law I became as one outside the law — not being without law toward God but under the law of Christ — that I might win those outside the law.

Note the terms that I have highlighted with green. This is, very much, apologetic / evangelistic methodology. Paul expressly states that he “became as” and “I have made myself” thus and so, according to opinion and state of the hearer he is seeking to reach. But he didn’t become “neutral”. It was a methodological approach, not somehow a temporary change of position, as if Christian doctrine were a chameleon or a wax nose that changes according to whim and situation. Paul makes it clear that his views did not change in so dong (“though not being myself” / “not being without law”).

This is what Bahnsen fails to understand. Methodology is not identical to personal belief, nor is epistemology the equivalent of ontology. One can believe a certain thing, but defend it in many different ways, without surrendering or compromising the belief itself. No one is pretending to be “neutral” simply because they argue something a particular way with a particular target audience. Why this is so difficult, apparently, for Bahnsen and presuppositionalists to grasp, is, I confess, a deep mystery to me. I should think it were self-evident. And it is entirely Pauline and biblical to think in this manner.

Satan would love this to happen. More than anything else, this would prevent the conquest of the world to belief in Jesus Christ as Lord. More than anything else, this would make professing Christians impotent in their witness, ineffective in their evangelism, and powerless in their apologetic.

Yes, if Bahnsen were correct and every time a non-Calvinist, non-presuppositionalist apologist opened his mouth to defend Christianity, it entailed an absurd modus operandi of denying various tenets of Christian faith in order to convince one of it (as if that were sensible or even possible) then he would be right. But it is a straw man from the outset.

The apologetical neutralist should reflect upon the nature of evangelism; such reflection demonstrates that (at least) in the following seven ways evangelism requires a presuppositional apologetic.

Okay; let’s look and see what case he can made. I look forward to it. I love to see people defend their positions from the Bible and reason. But remember that he has started out with a demonstrably false first premise, and keep that in mind as we proceed. It will keep coming up, because false premises have a way of intruding themselves into the later false conclusions that derive from them. Also remember that I vigorously deny that I am a “neutralist” simply because I am not a presuppositionalist. I’m not neutral at all; I am fully committed to Christianity (and more particularly to Catholic Christianity, should the discussion get that far). It’s what I defend after all. How can I defend something that I don’t believe, myself? What sense does that make?

Now, how is that “neutral”? In fact, it is so un-neutral and “partisan” that Bahnsen himself would strenuously object to my position of “Romanism” as not even Christian. But when I am defending things he and I would hold in common (as I almost always do in discussions with atheists or cultists like Jehovah’s Witnesses), it is irrelevant whether I am a Catholic or not. In other words, when I am standing side-by-side with Bahnsen and James White and others who say I am no Christian, and defending the deity of Christ or the Trinity or the bodily resurrection of Jesus , what I argue is true (even in their eyes), so it matters not whether I am a Catholic (which they think is sub-Christian). In any event, I am not “neutral.”

In attempting to bear glad tidings to the unbelieving world, the neutralist is robbed of his treasure

Contrary to neutrality’s demand, God’s word demands unreserved allegiance to God and his truth in all our thought and scholarly endeavors. It does so for a good reason.

But as I have shown, this is not at issue. See how Bahnsen is now building upon the first premise. It’s like the old notion of building a castle of sand, or a house of cards. Even Jesus talked about building a house without a solid foundation. That’s how logic works, too.

Paul infallibly declares in Colossians 2:3-8 that “All the treasures of wisdom and knowledge are hid in Christ.” Note he says all wisdom and knowledge is deposited in the person of Christ – whether it be about the War of 1812, water’s chemical composition, the literature of Shakespeare, or the laws of logic!

From the fact that God knows all things (omniscience) and has made all knowledge possible, it doesn’t follow that we must mention God or the Bible in every conceivable discussion on any imaginable subject. And this is self-evident. So why even bother mentioning it? It simply reduces to my first clause: “God knows all things (omniscience) and has made all knowledge possible”. Great. Wonderful. All Christians know and believe this. No one is denying it.

Bahnsen’s fallacy lies in thinking that it is being denied simply because God isn’t mentioned in every sentence the Christian utters (or, as the case may be, an entire essay on any given non-theological subject). If an entire book of the Bible didn’t even mention God (Esther) why must Christians do so at every turn, pray tell? It’s like telling one’s wife that one loves her, at the beginning of every sentence:

“I love you dearly, sweetheart; um, could you get me a new roll of toilet paper?”

“I love you; you’re the greatest. Do you know what time the game is on tonight?”

“I love you more than anything in the world and you are the dearest thing imaginable to me; the greatest woman and wife and mother in world history. I’d gladly die for you. I would drink your dirty bathwater. Oh, by the way, have you seen my light blue dress shirt?”

No one talks like this. In any normally happy marriage, the wife knows she is loved without being told 742 times a day (in fact, arguably that would cheapen and trivialize love and romance because it would become rote and automatic). And for Christians to be required to do something similar with God and the Bible simply makes us look like idiots. We don’t deny anything we believe in not mentioning the basics of what we believe over and over.

And the unbeliever (if he knows us at all) already knows what we believe, at least in general outline, without us beating it into the ground and boring him to death. it is no help to effective evangelism to be regarded as obsessed, weird, odd, socially-maladjusted people who have to repeat things ad infinitum, lest we supposedly deny what we believe.

Every academic pursuit and every thought must be related to Jesus Christ, for Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life (John 14:6). To avoid Christ in your thought at any point, then, is to be misled, untruthful, and spiritually dead.

What does it mean to “avoid Christ”? That’s the question. If I come right out and deny that Jesus is Lord of all of life and all of creation, or say something stupid like “God has no bearing on what I do in the bedroom” (as many millions of Protestants — and Catholics — do when they use contraception or divorce for ultimately sexual and selfish reasons) then that is completely unacceptable; I agree. But if I happen not to mention Jesus in some particular argument (as I have done throughout this response, and as Bahnsen himself has done, too), it doesn’t follow that I have denied same.

To put aside your Christian commitments when it comes to defending the faith is willfully to steer away from the only path to wisdom and truth found in Christ. It is not the end or outcome of knowledge to fear the Lord; it is the beginning of knowledge to reverence Him (Prov. 1:7; 9:10). Paul draws to our attention the impossibility of neutrality “in order that no one delude you with crafty speech.” Instead we must, as Paul exhorts, be steadfast, confirmed, rooted, and established in the faith as we were taught (v. 7).

Absolutely. But I have never denied this; nor has any published, credentialed, reputable evidentialist apologist (Protestant or Catholic) that I am aware of, so it is a red herring.

One must be presuppositionally committed to Christ in the world of thought (rather than neutral) and firmly tied down to the faith which he has been taught, or else the persuasive argumentation of secular thought will delude him. Hence the Christian is obligated to presuppose the word of Christ in every area of knowledge; the alternative is delusion. In verse 8 of Colossians 2, Paul says, “Beware lest any man rob you by means of philosophy and vain deceit.” By attempting to be neutral in your thought you are a prime target for being robbed – robbed by “vain philosophy” of “all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge” which are deposited in Christ alone (v. 3). The unbeliever’s darkened mind is an expression of his need to be evangelized.

This is a very poor commentary of the passage in question because it leaves crucial portions out, thus giving a misleading impression of what Paul is stating. St. Paul (actually considered in context) was not opposed to all philosophy whatsoever, or philosophy per se. He tries to pit philosophy against the wisdom and knowledge of Christ. But Bahnsen didn’t even cite the entire verse:

Colossians 2:8 (RSV) See to it that no one makes a prey of you by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits of the universe, and not according to Christ.

We see that Paul is not condemning philosophy at all (just as he doesn’t condemn all tradition, as many Protestants falsely suppose) but only the philosophy of mere “human tradition” or that which is “not according to Christ.” In other words, there can be a true Christian philosophy (and tradition) that is divine in origin and according to Christ.

If Paul were so opposed to philosophy itself, or even to non-Christian philosophy alone, then why did he cite pagan Greek poets, philosophers, and dramatists (and the Greeks started philosophy and excelled in it): Acts 17:28 (Aratus: c. 315-240 B.C., Epimenides: 6th c. B.C.), 1 Corinthians 15:33 (Menander: c.342-291 B.C.: “bad company ruins good morals”), and Titus 1:12 (Epimenides, described by Paul as a “prophet”)?

In fact, the line that Paul cited on Mars Hill in Athens (Acts 17:28), from Aratus, was actually, in context, talking about Zeus:

Let us begin with Zeus, whom we mortals never leave unspoken.

For every street, every market-place is full of Zeus.

Even the sea and the harbour are full of this deity.

Everywhere everyone is indebted to Zeus.

For we are indeed his offspring… (Phaenomena 1-5).

So Paul used a pagan poet, talking about a false god (Zeus) and “Christianized” the thought, applying it to the true God. That’s Pauline apologetic method, and I seek to imitate him (as he commanded) in this way as in others. The Church has done this, historically, by “co-opting” pagan holidays and “baptizing” them, thus eventually wiping out the old pagan holidays. This is certainly not presuppositionalistic apologetic method (Bahnsen, if consistent, would have to rule this out as an instance of supposedly being “neutral” as to Christian belief in order to effectively persuade the non-Christian pagan Greek). But it’s very biblical and Pauline, isn’t it?

The citation from Epimenides (the poem Cretica) involves the same thing; it was originally written about Zeus; Paul (Acts 17:28 again) takes it and applies it to Yahweh, the true God:

They fashioned a tomb for thee, O holy and high one—

The Cretans, always liars, evil beasts, idle bellies!

But thou art not dead: thou livest and abidest forever,

For in thee we live and move and have our being.

St. Paul expressly cites these pagan Greek poets and philosophers precisely because that is what his sophisticated Athens audience (including “Epicurean and Stoic philosophers” — 17:18) could understand and relate too. He was using wise apologetic method and strategy. This is Paul giving a concrete example of the evangelistic application of his dictum of 1 Corinthians 9:21: “To those outside the law I became as one outside the law — not being without law toward God but under the law of Christ — that I might win those outside the law.”

Paul tells us in Ephesians 4 that to follow the methods dictated by the intellectual outlook of those who are outside of a saving relationship to God is to have a vain mind and darkened understanding (vv. 17-18).

That would be fascinating, wouldn’t it? So the Paul of the Mars Hill sermon-speech contradicted the Paul of Ephesians 4, since he “followed the methods” and utilized the “intellectual outlook” of Greek philosophy, in citing poems devoted to Zeus and mentioning idols he had seen? Nuh-uh. Rather, it is Bahnsen who is self-contradictory, not Paul, who was perfectly consistent (and no presuppositionalist).

Ephesians 4:17-18 is a different context. Paul was saying that a Christian must live and think differently from a pagan. Being a Christian made a difference; a regenerated mind is a massive change. The passage (especially seen in its context to the end of the chapter: verse 4:32) is much more about morals than about false philosophy (“the life of God”, “hardness of heart”, “licentiousness”, “uncleanness”, “deceitful lusts”, etc. But obviously Paul was not teaching that the Gentiles had no truth whatsoever, or else he wouldn’t have cited their own thinkers. So Bahnsen is the one who has trouble synthesizing the two aspects, not St. Paul, because he is of an insufficiently biblical and Pauline mindset.

Neutralist thinking, then, is characterized by intellectual futility and ignorance.

There is plenty of this ignorance and fallacy to go around, as I think I am showing. I should come up with a new name for presuppositionalists, too, since Bahnsen insists on using the false title of “neutralist” for evidentialist or “classical” apologists. But in my case, the description would be true. How about “circularist” — to stand for the viciously circular reasoning that not only characterizes presuppositionalism, but self-consciously and proudly so, on their part? But that would not be nice, even though true.

In God’s light, we are able to see light (cf. Ps. 36:9). To turn away from intellectual dependence upon the light of God, the truth about and from God, is to turn away from knowledge to the darkness of ignorance. Thus, if a Christian wishes to begin his scholarly endeavors from a position of neutrality he would, in actuality, be willing to begin his thinking in the dark.

If anyone actually did this, I’d like to see an example. I deny that it is true of any decent apologist.

He would not allow God’s word to be a light unto his path (cf. Ps. 119:105). To walk on in neutrality, he would be stumbling along in darkness. God is certainly not honored by such thought as he should be, and consequently God makes such reasoning vain (Rom. 1:21b). Neutrality amounts to vanity in God’s sight.

Insofar as this “neutrality” is lack of belief in the Christian tenets that ought to be believed, I agree. I disagree that it is a relevant description of mainstream evidentialist apologists or apologetics.

That “philosophy” which does not find its starting point and direction in Christ is further described by Paul in Colossians 2:8. Paul is not against the “love of wisdom” (i.e., “philosophy” from the Greek) per se. Philosophy is fine as long as one properly finds genuine wisdom – which means, for Paul, finding it in Christ (Col. 2:3).

Good. This was not made clear earlier, but I am delighted to see that Bahnsen states this now.

However, there is a kind of “philosophy” which does not begin with the truth of God, the teaching of Christ. Instead this philosophy takes its direction and finds its origin in the accepted principles of the world’s intellectuals – in the traditions of men. Such philosophy as this is the subject of Paul’s disapprobation in Colossians 2:8. It is instructive for us, especially if we are prone to accept the demands of neutrality in our thinking, to investigate his characterizations of that kind of philosophy.

I already explored some of that in my survey of his use of pagan Greek thought in Athens and in two other passages in his writings.

Paul says that it is “vain deception.” What kind of thinking is it that can be characterized as “vain”? A ready answer is found by comparison and contrast in scriptural passages that speak of vanity (e.g., Deut. 32:47; Phil. 2:16; Acts 4:25; 1 Cor. 3:20; 1 Tim. 1:6; 6:20; 2 Tim. 2:15-18; Titus 1:9-10). Vain thinking is that which is not in accord with God’s word.

Indeed.

A similar study will demonstrate that “deceptive” thinking is thought which is in opposition to God’s word (cf. Heb. 3:12-15; Eph. 4:22; 2 Thess. 2:10-12; 2 Pet. 2:13). The “vain deception” against which Paul warns, then, is philosophy which operates apart from, and against, the truth of Christ.

Amen.

Note the injunction of Ephesians 5:6, “Let no man deceive you with vain words.” In Colossians 2:8 we are told to take care lest we be robbed through “vain deceit.” Paul further characterizes this kind of philosophy as “according to the tradition of men, after the fundamental principles of the world.”

Good. This should have been pointed out in the earlier passage (which, as it reads, presents a half-truth and could potentially mislead or confuse the reader), but better late than never.

That is, this philosophy sets aside God’s word and makes it void (cf. Mark 7:8-13), and it does so by beginning with the elements of learning dictated by the world (i.e., the precepts of men; cf. Col. 2:20, 22). The philosophy which Paul spurns is that reasoning which follows the presuppositions (the elementary assumptions) of the world, and thereby is “not according to Christ.”

But Paul arguably did that himself by arguing from belief in Zeus to the fuller reality and truth of Yahweh. Without denying his own belief in the slightest, Paul argued from Greek presuppositions (also in referring to the Athenian “unknown god” — 17:23, and how “religious” the Greeks were — 17:22). Zeus is not according to Christ at all. The belief was a mere fiction, and statues of Zeus that were worshiped were abominable idols. Yet Paul uses these elements to build a bridge to the pagan Greeks.

Would Greg Bahnsen have done that, given his approach (or, try to imagine James White — whose apologetical hero is Bahnsen — arguing in such a fashion; it’s comical to even picture)? Highly unlikely, because he seems to condemn all points of contact, when it involves use of non-Christian constructs and premises to argue upwards to Christian ones. One can hardly conceive of a presuppositionalist using Paul’s methods at the Areopagus. It directly contradicts their apologetic approach.

The neutralist overlooks that antithesis between the Christian and non-Christian which explains why the believer is in a position to aid the unbeliever

Not at all, as we shall see. The circularist (sorry!) fails to prove this charge . . .

In Ephesians 4:17-18, Paul commands the followers of Christ that they “no longer walk as the Gentiles also walk, in the vanity of their mind, being darkened in their understanding, alienated from the life of God because of the ignorance in them, because of the hardening of their heart.” Christian believers must not walk, must not behave or live, in a way which imitates the behavior of those who are unredeemed; specifically, Paul forbids the Christian from imitating the unbeliever’s vanity of mind.

False philosophy (as well as sin) is to be avoided; absolutely. It doesn’t follow that there is no good whatsoever in pagan and Gentile thinking. Jesus “marveled” at the Roman centurion, after all, and said of him: “Truly, I say to you, not even in Israel have I found such faith” (Matthew 8:10). Note that this is not simply philosophy and thinking, but “faith.” Paul echoes this understanding in Romans 2:12-16. Not all pagan thought is wicked and evil. There is also a lot of truth (and in their morals, as well, as Paul states in Romans 2, and according to how he argued on Mars Hill).

Bahnsen, like many Calvinists, is guilty of painting with too broad of a brush. Whatever truly opposes Christ and Christianity is, of course, wicked and evil and from the pit of hell. I wholeheartedly agree. But not all that is non-Christian is unalterably opposed to Christianity. There is common ground. That’s the point. It even applies to unregenerate souls. We see that Jesus and Paul were quite compassionate and understanding of nonbelievers and didn’t seem to regard them to the man as utterly wicked.

On the other hand, the worst condemnations of Paul and Jesus were directed towards Jewish and Christian religious hypocrites who didn’t rightly act upon what they believed. Hence Paul emphasized what folks did with the knowledge they possessed, whether Christian (Rom 2:6:9-10,13; 1 Cor 3:8-9; Phil 2:12-13; Titus 3:8; cf. 1 Pet 1:17) or non-Christian (Rom 2:6,9-10,14-15), even tying this directly to justification itself. St. Peter speaks the same language in dealing with Cornelius the Gentile (Acts 10:35), saying that a nonbeliever can be “acceptable” to God. Our Lord Jesus emphasized the same thing again and again (Mt 5:20; 7:16-27; 16:27; 25:31-46; Lk 14:13-14; 18:18-25; Jn 3:36; Rev 22:12).

Christians must refuse to think or reason according to a worldly mind-set or outlook. The culpable agnosticism of the world’s intellectuals must not be reproduced in Christians as alleged neutrality; this outlook, this approach to truth, this intellectual method evidences a darkened understanding and hardened heart. It refuses to bow to the Lordship of Jesus Christ over every area of life, including scholarship and the world of thought. Every man, whether an antagonist or an apologist for the Gospel, will distinguish himself and his thinking either by contrast to the world or by contrast to God’s word.

Truth is truth. If a pagan, atheist, or devil-worshiper says “2+2=4” or “water freezes and turns into ice below 0 degrees Celsius” or “the Beatles are unarguably the greatest rock group ever” (just being a little lighthearted!) it is just as true as when a Christian says it. We are not to think false thoughts, and there is plenty of falsehood in Christian circles, and in Bahnsen’s own analysis. The devil is the father of lies.

Unbelievers have no lock on that shortcoming. In fact, Protestants are often lax about falsehood, because they will try to justify, for example, denominationalism and latitudinarianism, where they are quite happy (very unlike the first Protestants and particularly Luther and Calvin) to allow for divergences of opinion about important things. Baptism is the classic example.

Greg Bahnsen is James White’s hero, but White is a Baptist who believes in adult, believer’s baptism, whereas Bahnsen the Presbyterian would have accepted infant baptism. They can’t resolve what “perspicuous” biblical teaching is on this matter. And of course, Luther also believed that baptism regenerated, contrary to both White and Bahnsen.

Now, whenever there is a direct doctrinal contradiction among Protestants of this sort (they may not know where it is located, but it is undoubtedly present somewhere because of the laws of logic and contradiction), falsehood is necessarily present. And falsehood is bad and wicked and does no one any good. But it is routinely winked at and sanctioned in Protestantism when contradictions are allowed — even encouraged — to be maintained. Catholicism, on the other hand, will have none of this (except for latitude on the most complex things, like Thomism and Molinism), but not on any doctrinal or dogmatic issue. So why is Bahnsen so concerned with nonbelieving error (which we fully expect) while seemingly unconcerned with massive falsehood in Protestant ranks?

There can be falsehood among Christians and truth among non-Christians. Thus, it is far better to speak of truth wherever it is found, than to vainly pretend that all Christians have all truth and non-Christians are wicked through and through and have none, or very little truth. It just isn’t so. And thank God that it isn’t: he gives plenty of grace to go around.

The contrast, the antithesis, the choice is clear: either be set apart by God’s truthful word or be alienated from the life of God. Either have “the mind of Christ” (1 Cor. 2:16) or the “vain mind of the Gentiles” (Eph. 4:17). Either bring “every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ” (2 Cor. 10:5) or continue as “enemies in your mind” (Col. 1:21).

No problem there; only in the exaggerated, absurd, fallacious way in which this premise works its way into the method of presuppositionalism.

Those who follow the intellectual principle of neutrality and the epistemological method of unbelieving scholarship do not honor the sovereign Lordship of God as they should; as a result, their reasoning is made vain (Rom. 1:21). In Ephesians 4, as we have seen, Paul prohibits the Christian from following this vain mind-set. Paul goes on to teach that the believer’s thinking is diametrically contrary to the ignorant and darkened thinking of the Gentiles. “But you did not learn Christ after this manner!” (v. 20). While the Gentiles are ignorant, “the truth is in Jesus” (v. 21). Unlike the Gentiles who are alienated from the life of God, the Christian has put away the old man and has been “renewed in the spirit of your mind” (vv. 22-23).

Here we go with the broad brush again. This is not Paul’s entire teaching, or else he couldn’t have written that Gentiles who didn’t even have the law (which was prior to even the Christian gospel and regeneration and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit) still had a conscience that could enable them to know what was right and wrong (Rom 2:14-16) and possibly be saved (2:15-16). That’s why Jesus could say that many Gentiles would be saved, while many of the Jews would be damned (Matthew 8:11-12; 21:21: “Truly, I say to you, the tax collectors and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you.”).

This “new man” is distinctive in virtue of the “holiness of truth” (v. 24). The Christian is completely different from the world when if comes to intellect and scholarship; he does not follow the neutral methods of unbelief, but by God’s grace he has new commitments, new presuppositions, in his thinking.

His mind is renewed and regenerated; no doubt; this doesn’t prove that no good or true thought comes from a non-Christian context. It’s the same false premise over and over again. Repetition doesn’t make it any more true or any less false.

Attempting to be neutral in one’s intellectual endeavors (whether research, argumentation, reasoning, or teaching) is tantamount to striving to erase the antithesis between the Christian and the unbeliever. Christ declared that the former was set apart from the latter by the truth of God’s word (John 17:17). Those who wish to gain dignity in the eyes of the world’s intellectuals by wearing the badge of “neutrality” only do so at the expense of refusing to be set apart, by God’s truth. In the intellectual realm they are absorbed into the world so that no one could tell the difference between their thinking and assumptions and apostate thinking and assumptions. The line between believer and unbeliever is obscured.

For liberals, that is true, but it’s not true of those who have a traditional Christian belief. The manifold compromises (invariably sexual and gender-related in terms of morals) of Protestantism with the world again come into mind. Contraception is clearly a compromise with the sexual revolution; so is divorce and radical feminism and cohabitation and abortion and lack of desire to have children (under zero population growth) and female ordination (that flows from the false feminist premise that difference in gender roles is tantamount to inherent inequality and “patriarchy”).

Catholicism doesn’t allow for any of these things: never has and never will, but Protestantism does (more and more) all over the place. I submit that Bahnsen should have been at least equally alarmed at that massive infiltration of falsehood and immorality into conservative Protestant ranks. No Christians believed in the moral permissiveness of contraception until the Anglicans allowed “hard cases” in 1930. What was formerly evil was then called good.

Now the vast majority of Protestants accept this pagan sexual morality and see nothing wrong with it whatsoever. I did it myself (from 1984-1990: the first six years of my marriage), until some Catholics talked some sense into me and informed me of the historic Christian moral teaching. Who was ignorant there? I was! I was in darkness, as a regenerated, Spirit-filled, wholly-committed Christian (a missionary, an apologist); calling evil good and not having the slightest awareness that I was doing so.

But Bahnsen and his followers today among Calvinists (he seems to be some sort of icon or champion among them, spoken of in awestruck, hushed terms) want to go on and on about how Christians have all truth and the nonbelievers are purely wicked and deluded? Why is it, then, that Muslims, by and large, still believe in having large families and do far better on the whole in that regard than Christians, who should know better (and who used to do the same until the Sexual Revolution)? Why is it that these same Muslims (for the most part) don’t practice fornication or cohabitation or divorce or abortion? They know better than Christians without even the correct doctrine of God and the Holy Spirit and regeneration? How can that be if Bahnsen is correct? There are many pro-life atheists (such as, notably, Nat Hentoff) and many Christian pro-abortionists.

No such compromise is even possible. “No man is able to serve two lords” (Matt. 6:24). “Whosoever therefore would be a friend of the world maketh himself, an enemy of God” (James 4:4).

My point exactly. Jesus told us to get our own house in order first.

The nature of conversion is not continued neutrality and autonomy, but faith and submission to the Lordship of Christ

When one becomes a Christian, his faith has not been generated by the thought patterns of worldly wisdom. The world in its wisdom knows not God (1 Cor. 1:21) but considers the word of the cross to be foolish (1 Cor. 1:18, 21b).

This is correct. Faith and regeneration come as a result of the supernatural work of God, and God alone, through justification, the Holy Spirit, and the sacramental power of baptism, for the remission of sins (Jn 3:5; Acts 2:38; 22:16; Rom 6:3-4; 1 Cor 6:11; Titus 3:5;1 Pet 3:21).

If one keeps the perspective of the world, then, he shall never see the wisdom of God for what it really is; thereby he will never be “in Christ Jesus” who is made unto believers “wisdom from God” (1 Cor. 1:30). Hence faith, rather than self-sufficient sight, makes you a Christian, and this trust is directed toward Christ, not your own intellect. This is to say that the way you receive Christ is to turn away from the wisdom of men (the perspective of secular thought with its presuppositions) and gain, by the illumination of the Holy Spirit, the mind of Christ (1 Cor. 2:12-16). When one becomes a Christian, his faith stands not in the wisdom of men but in the powerful demonstration of the Spirit (1 Cor. 2:4-5).

Yes; properly applied, as we have been seeing . . .

Moreover, what the Holy Spirit causes all believers to say is “Jesus is Lord” (1 Cor. 12:3). Jesus was crucified, resurrected, and ascended in order that he might be confessed as Lord (cf. Rom. 14:9; Phil. 2:11). Thus Paul can summarize that message which must be confessed if we are to be saved as “Jesus is Lord” (Rom. 10:9). To become a Christian one submits to the Lordship of Christ; he renounces autonomy and comes under the authority of God’s Son. The One whom Paul says we receive, according to Colossians 2:6, is Christ Jesus the Lord. As Lord over the believer, Christ requires that the Christian love him with every faculty he possesses (including his mind, Matt. 22:37); every thought must be brought captive to the obedience of Christ (2 Cor. 10:5).

Of course. How many Christians actually do this, though, is the immediate consideration.

Therefore, the evangelistic apologist must come and reason as a new man if he is to direct the unbeliever; his argumentation must be consistent with the end toward which he aims

Sure; what Christian would argue otherwise?

We note that the unqualified precondition of genuine Christian scholarship is that the believer (along with all his thinking) be “rooted in Christ” (Col. 2:7). Paul commands us to be rooted in Christ and to shun the presuppositions of secularism.

That’s tough to do when so many Christians (by the multiple millions) are neck deep in pagan. non-Christian sexual morality. They not only accept pagan thinking, but )as a special bonus) live it out too. And Protestant church leaders (and compromised Catholic priests who don’t even follow their own Church’s teaching) wink at all this and do nothing about it. The Episcopalians (the denomination of C.S. Lewis) even ordain practicing homosexuals as bishops.

In verse 6 of Colossians 2, he explains very simply how we should go about having our lives (including our scholarly endeavors) grounded in Christ and thereby insuring that our reasoning is guided by Christian presuppositions. He says, “As therefore you received Christ Jesus the Lord so walk in Him”; that is, walk in Christ In the same way that you received him. If you do this, you will be “established in your faith even as you were taught.” How then did you become a Christian? After the same fashion you should grow and mature in your Christian walk. Above, we saw that our walk does not honor the thought patterns of worldly wisdom but submits to the epistemic Lordship of Christ (i.e., his authority in the area of thought and knowledge). In this manner a person comes to faith, and in this manner the believer must continue to live and carry out his calling – even when he is concerned with scholarship, apologetics, or schooling.

This is simply reiterating the arguments from before. Again, it is the proper, sensible application of this true biblical teaching that is the problem. I’ve shown why that is, above. This stuff doesn’t teach anyone how to actually do apologetics. I have done that, however, in my analysis of how the Apostle Paul went about it, and how he applied his own teaching to his own evangelistic efforts. Paul is my model for evangelism and apologetics, not some man-made tradition of a minority within a minority of a late arrival in Christian history: presuppositionalism.

Therefore, the new man, the believer with a renewed mind that has been taught by Christ, is no more to walk in the intellectual vanity and darkness which characterizes the unbelieving world (read Eph. 4:17-21). The Christian has new commitments, new presuppositions, a new Lord, a new direction, and goal – he is a new man; and that newness is expressed in his thinking and scholarship, for (as in all other areas) Christ must have the preeminence in the realm of apologetics and evangelism (Col. 1:18b).

Yes; now how does the Christian do it? Maybe Bahnsen deals with that in another article. I shall look for it.

If the evangelist is to be compelling in his witness he must stand on a firm foundation of knowledge

Or, “the 16th way I have devised of saying the exact same thing over and over.” It’s true that repetition is the heart of learning, but the problem comes when what is repeated is either fallacious or unsupported by reason.

God tells us to apply our hearts unto His knowledge if we are to know the certainty of the words of truth (Prov. 22:17-21). It is characteristic of philosophers today that they either deny that there is absolute truth or they deny that one can be certain of knowing the truth: it is either not there, or it is unreachable. However, what God has written to us (i.e., Scripture) can “make you know the certainty of the words of truth” (vv. 20-21). The truth is accessible! However, in order to firmly grasp it one must heed the injunction of verse 17b: “apply your mind to my knowledge.” God’s knowledge is primary, and whatever man is to know can only be based upon a reception of what God has originally and ultimately known. Man must think God’s thoughts after Him, for “in thy light shall we see light” (Ps. 36:9).

Yep. Christian (Protestant) philosophers today like Alvin Plantinga and William Lane Craig and Gary Habermas, are doing a great job of that.

David’s testimony was that “The Lord my God illumines my darkness” (Ps. 18:28). Into the darkness of man’s ignorance, the ignorance which results from attempted self-sufficiency, come the words of God, bringing light and understanding (Ps. 119:130). Thus Augustine correctly said, “I believe in order to understand.” Understanding and knowledge of the truth are the promised results when man makes God’s word (reflecting God’s primary knowledge) his presuppositional starting point for all thinking. “Attend unto my wisdom; incline your ear to my understanding in order that you may preserve discretion and in order that your lips may keep knowledge” (Prov. 5:1-2).

This only goes to demonstrate my long-held opinion that presuppositionalism basically boils down in the end (like many gallons of sap turning into a small amount of maple syrup) to simply preaching (and preaching to the choir at that). The “how” and “why” of belief is hardly differentiated from the “what”. The reader is going along in an article about “evangelism and apologetics” and gets less and less of either as he goes along. The very methodology which is supposedly the topic is hardly dealt with at all, or when so, in broad, fallacious terms that are easily shot down (even from Scripture alone). This is the constant frustration when dealing with the presuppositionalist mindset.

The neutralist forgets the gracious nature of his salvation

Really? I can’t wait to see why this (supposedly) is. I already mentioned that above, so obviously I am one so-called “neutralist” that hasn’t done so.

To make God’s word your presupposition, your standard, your instructor and guide, however, calls for renouncing intellectual self-sufficiency – the attitude that you are autonomous, able to attain unto genuine knowledge independent of God’s direction and standards.

Paul said that this is exactly what men can potentially do (even possibly attain salvation in God’s grace), without even the law, let alone all of God’s revelation (Rom 2). Likewise, Peter and Jesus (passages cited above) seem to think that not only knowledge but faith itself was possible without this knowledge. So if the choice is Bahnsen and James White over here and Jesus, Paul, and Peter over there, folks know where I will go.

The man who claims (or pursues) neutrality in his thought does not recognize his complete dependence upon the God of all knowledge for whatever he has come to understand about the world.

Of course: “In him we live and move and have our being” (Acts 17:28): and Paul was citing a pagan Greek, referring to Zeus. How did the ignorant, unregenerate pagan come up with the same knowledge that Bahnsen is now stating?

Such men give the impression (often) that they are Christians only because they, as superior intellects, have figured out or verified (to a large or significant degree) the teachings of Scripture. Instead of beginning with God’s sure word as foundational to their studies, they would have us to think that they begin with intellectual self-sufficiency and (using this as their starting-point) work up to a “rational” acceptance of Scripture.

I wish Bahnsen would, just once, name names, as to who supposedly does this (again, maybe he does in other articles; I can’t wait to find out). Certainly many liberals do. But I’m not writing about them. I’m writing about apologists who are defending historic Christianity.

While Christians may fall into an autonomous spirit while following their scholarly endeavors, still this attitude is not consistent with Christian profession and character. “The beginning of knowledge is the fear of Jehovah” (Prov. 1:7). All knowledge begins with God, and thus we who wish to have knowledge must presuppose God’s word and renounce intellectual autonomy. “Talk no more proudly: let not arrogance come from your mouth, for Jehovah is a God of knowledge” (1 Sam. 2:3).

More preaching . . . this would be a great sermon. As apologetics and an attempted, sustained piece of reasoning, it isn’t quite as profound, sad to say. And Bahnsen was a highly educated man and highly revered by Calvinists today.

Jehovah is the one who teaches man knowledge (Ps. 94:10). So whatever we have, even the knowledge which we have about the world, has been given to us from God. “What do you have that you have not received?” (1 Cor. 4:7). Why then would men pride themselves in intellectual self-sufficiency? “According as it stands written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord” (1 Cor. 1:31). Humble submission to God’s word must precede man’s every intellectual pursuit.

Amen! Preach it, brother!

Apologetics is evangelistic in nature. The apologist deals with people who have darkened minds, running from the light of God, refusing to submit to the Lord.

Yes! Okay, now tell us how to do this! Please! It’s like waiting at a restaurant for a scrumptious meal that never arrives; only the breadsticks and potato chips do; and skim milk. The main course never comes. All the other is good as far as it goes, it has value, but it ain’t the meat; it’s not the main course that everyone is waiting for. It’s all preliminaries only; wetting the (Christian intellectual) whistle without satisfying it with some sort of specific instruction as to how to go and evangelize the lost; by what method beyond the fact that a Christian is a Christian and believes Christian stuff (like we didn’t know that?) . . . but I have provided that for the reader, using the biblical models of the Apostle Paul and our Lord Jesus.

The apologist must not demonstrate the same mind-set by striving for a neutrality which in effect puts him in the same quagmire. He must aim for the conversion of the unbelieving antagonist, and thus he must discourage autonomy and encourage submissive faith.

The same tired false premises and caricatures about evidential apologists . . .

The apologist must evidence, even in his method of argumentation,

“Method”? Oh, man, he gets so close to what he needs to talk about (gettin’ “warmer”!), but will he?

that he is a new man in Christ; he uses presuppositions which are at variance with the world. He makes the word of God his starting point, knowing that it alone gives him the assured knowledge which the unbeliever cannot have while in rebellion against Christ. The non-Christian’s thinking has no firm foundation, but the Christian declares the authoritative word from God. If he did not, he could not evangelize at all: he could only pool his ignorance and speculation with the unbeliever. In doing so the Christian would be robbed of all the treasure of wisdom and knowledge which is deposited in Christ alone. Besides this, the apologist who attempts to show his intellectual self-sufficiency by moving to a position of neutrality in order that he might “prove” certain isolated truths in the Christian system forgets that grace alone has made him the Christian that he is; he should, instead, continue to think and behave in the same manner in which he received Christ (by faith, submitting to the Lordship of Christ).

Nope; same old same old . . . there’s no hope for this article. The end is near. The “argument” is seen to be completely circular and based on a wholesale caricature of non-presuppositionalist methods.

Therefore, in light of the character of evangelism, the nature of the unbeliever, the nature of the regenerated apologist, the nature of conversion, the nature of genuine knowledge and salvation, the Christian apologist ought to use a presuppositional approach in his defense of the faith. The evangelistic character of apologetics demands nothing less “But set apart Christ as lord in your hearts, always being ready to make a defense to every one who asks you to give an account for the hope that is in you, yet with gentleness and respect,” (1 Pet. 3:15); “we do not war according to the flesh, for the weapons of our warfare are not of the flesh, but divinely powerful for the destruction of fortresses, destroying speculations and every lofty thing raised up against the knowledge of God – we are taking every thought captive to the obedience of Christ” (2 Cor. 10:4-5).

It’s like drinking a hundred gallons of the same flat soda pop, or peeling an onion to figure out what is the core (there is none). He just keeps repeating what all Christians who accept the inspired biblical revelation believe. Big wow. I want to know how to reach the unbeliever . . .

I find it highly ironic that the same person who in 1985 excoriated fellow Calvinists R.C. Sproul and John Gerstner for their supposed cluelessness as to the nature of presuppositionalism (see my paper on this, in response to James White, for the documentation):

[They have] oversimplified, jumbled, or handled with little more than slogans . . . painfully naive, . . . Van Til’s presuppositionalism is so badly misrepresented. . . . Sproul, Gerstner, and Lindsley have simply not taken the time to understand correctly what they have chosen to criticize. . . . he continues to force the good professor into the mold of his preconceptions. This is unreasonable – making a presupposition ride roughshod over the evidence!

. . . it should be the authors of this uncharitable and false representation who should be embarrassed. Anyone can knock down a straw man.

For this reviewer, the authors have not begun to interact meaningfully with presuppositionalism. . . . misconstrual of Van Til, . . . embarrassment. The argumentation is too easy to discredit, . . .

The authors admit that their traditional apologetic “is sick and ailing” (p. 12). Judging from the case made in this book, the diagnosis may be overly optimistic. . . . reliable, logically sound guidance will not be found here. . . . if you are interested in understanding or criticizing contemporary presuppositional apologetics, save your money for another day.

This same person who made these scathing criticisms (of very well-known and widely respected Calvinists!) shows not the slightest understanding of non-presuppositional apologetic method (in fact, systematically distorting same and bashing a straw man). I hope he can do better in another article. As I said, I shall look over what can be found online. I am completely underwhelmed and disappointed. I was really hoping to find something challenging.

Most of what Greg Bahnsen says that is true and helpful is already patently obvious to anyone with the slightest acquaintance with biblical teaching, a biblical, Christian worldview, and who accepts the Bible as God’s word. So it’s not bad (i.e., in its true portions), but it doesn’t teach anyone in that category anything they don’t already pretty much know. It’s literally preaching to the choir. And that is simply not apologetics; sorry.

All Bahnsen has succeeded in showing is what all dedicated, committed Christians of whatever stripe believe about the Bible and God as the font of all true knowledge and wisdom. That is Christian theology, but not Christian apologetics, let alone evangelism. I’m sure Dr. Bahnsen was a fine man, devoted to God and family and his fellow Christians. He was obviously very zealous and intelligent, but he has, in my opinion, and with all due respect, completely failed in the task of this article (by any reasonable analysis of what an article entitled “Evangelism and Apologetics” ought to set out to do).

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Photo credit: [public domain / Freesvg.org]

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Summary: I “dialogue” with the late Greg Bahnsen (1948-1995) and critique his presuppositionalist views, as well as contend in favor of evidentialist apologetics.

June 1, 2022

Lucas Banzoli is a very active Brazilian anti-Catholic polemicist, who holds to basically a Seventh-Day Adventist theology, whereby there is no such thing as a soul that consciously exists outside of a body, and no hell (soul sleep and annihilationism). This leads him to a Christology which is deficient and heterodox in terms of Christ’s human nature after His death. He has a Master’s degree in theology, a degree and postgraduate work in history, a license in letters, and is a history teacher, author of 25 books, as well as blogmaster (but now inactive) for six blogs. He’s active on YouTube.

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The words of Lucas Banzoli will be in blue. I used Google Translate to transfer his Portugese text into English.

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This is a reply to Lucas’ article, “Justino pregava a Sola Scriptura?” [Did Justin preach Sola Scriptura?] (6-5-13).

People who like to stir up controversy

I like to stir up biblical, theological, and historical truth.

have claimed that Justin of Rome (AD 100-165) never taught Sola Scriptura . . . 

True.

Before showing whether or not Justin believed in Sola Scriptura, it is necessary for us to explain to Catholics what Sola Scriptura is, since I tirelessly see misrepresentations of the meaning of the term being put in their mouths.

That is too often true. But of course it’s also true that many Protestants don’t understand the proper definition of it, either. We’ll see if Lucas does. I’m glad that he is taking the time to define the term, since he didn’t in his article about Origen and Tertullian, that I replied to yesterday.

First, let’s get to what Sola Scriptura does not mean: 1st Sola Scriptura does not mean that everything has to be in the Bible.

• It is not in the Bible that Barack Obama would be president of the USA or that São Paulo would be three-time world champion in 2005, and yet I believe that. What has to be in the Bible is not “everything”, as some Catholics erroneously claim, but the doctrines that were taught by the apostles and Jesus Christ. We do not believe that “everything is in the Bible”, but we believe that no biblical writer has “hidden” any important doctrinal truth that was not written by any of them in the 66 books of Holy Scripture.

Good and correct, so far. Catholics agree.

2nd Sola Scriptura does not mean that we should reject all traditions.

• Even Protestant churches have their traditions, with their dress, their hymnals, their liturgies, their customs. Traditions that are rejected by evangelicals are those traditions that invent doctrines that are not found in the Scriptures and cannot be demonstrated from them, as is the case with many Catholic dogmas, which are sustained purely by what is not written.

So he claims. I have shown again and again that sola Scriptura itself is not taught in the Bible. It’s a self-defeating, late-arriving extrabiblical tradition of men. Every Catholic doctrine can be shown to be supported by the Bible in some fashion, and to be in harmony with the Bible. I’ve done this myself in my own work.

Now, let’s show Catholics what Sola Scriptura means:

1st Sola Scriptura means that we have in the Bible everything that is necessary for our salvation.

That’s material sufficiency, and we agree with it.

2nd Sola Scriptura means that the Bible is totally sufficient in matters of faith and practice.

3rd Sola Scriptura means that any doctrinal tradition that has no biblical basis must be rejected.

4th Sola Scriptura means that all moral or doctrinal teaching of the Christian faith must be based on Scripture. Now that we know what Sola Scriptura means and what it doesn’t mean, Catholics can stop arguing in a vacuum, refuting a scarecrow.

The standard definition of sola Scriptura in use among Protestants is that the Bible is the only infallible standard and norm for Christian theology, faith, and practice. Lucas fails to note this, so his definition (while a “fair” one) is inadequate. I went through the definition at length in my paper, Reply to Lucas Banzoli: 2 Tim 3:16 & Sola Scriptura (5-31-22).

It follows that the Church and tradition can never be infallible. Therefore, if  Church father asserts one of the latter two scenarios, he does not believe in sola Scriptura. I will demonstrate  that this is the case for Justin Martyr.

And if you pay a little more attention to Justin’s own works, you will see that he had exactly the same conception as evangelicals of what we really mean by Sola Scriptura:

Not at all, as I will prove. He asserts material sufficiency of Scripture, which is not the same as sola Scriptura, and he also asserts the infallibility of Church and tradition, which expressly contradicts sola Scriptura and proves that he didn’t believe in it.

1st Justin believed that what was not said by the Scriptures was doubtful and suspect.

That is untrue, as I will document, as we proceed.

2nd Justin tried to prove by the Scriptures everything he presented.

That’s great and true, but is not sola Scriptura. Simply arguing from the Bible doesn’t prove what one’s rule of faith is. And for this proposition about Justin to be true, it would have to be shown that he never appealed to anything but Scripture.

-Text: “If, sirs, it were not said by the Scriptures which I have already quoted, that His form was without glory, that through His death the rich would suffer death, that by His stripes we must be healed, and that He was led like a sheep to the slaughter, and if I had not explained that there would be two advents of him who was smitten for you, when you will know him whom you have pierced and your tribes will mourn, then consider what I have said to be doubtful and suspect. But it was through the contents of the Scriptures, dear holy and prophetic among you, that I try to prove all that I have presented, in the hope that one of you may be found to be a part of the remnant, which has been left by the grace of the Lord of hosts, unto eternal salvation” (Dialogue with Trypho, Cap.32)

As we see in the quote above, Justin used to say that if what he said has no Scriptural basis, let it be considered suspect, obscure, doubtful.

That’s not what he was arguing. The point isn’t that everything not in Scripture is “doubtful and suspect” (“dubious and obscure in the English translation from the Schaff set). His point, rather, was that, since Trypho was a Jew, he fully accepted Old Testament revelation as “holy and prophetic”). So Justin is saying, “I’m using your own Scriptures to prove my point. If I didn’t, you wouldn’t believe me.” He’s engaging in good evangelistic method and strategy (utilize what the opponent respects).

Once correctly understood in this way, it’s evident that it has nothing to do with the dispute about sola Scriptura.

But that, on the contrary, it was by the content of the Scriptures that he tried to prove all (and not some part) of what he presented!

Yeah, because the Old Testament was what Jews and Christians heled in common. He’s not even including the New Testament in this particular portion of his argument.

Catholics unfortunately cannot subscribe to Justin’s words, for:

• They believe in doctrines outside the Bible as dogmas of faith, not as “doubtful and suspect.”

• They do not try to prove everything they believe from the Scriptures, as they admit that much of what they believe is not found in the Bible, but in the so-called “oral tradition”.

All Catholic doctrines must be in harmony with the Bible, and that’s what we try to prove: almost always with massive use of Scripture.

So we see Justin contradicting the Catholic pillars of non-biblical oral tradition and reiterating the Christian principles of Sola Scriptura.

Nonsense. This was taken out of context, as shown. Later, I will prove that Justin doesn’t stick to the Bible Alone; hence, he held to a Catholic rule of faith, not a proto-Protestant one.

3rd Justin believed that we cannot fail to constantly refer to the Scriptures.

-Text: “It is a ridiculous thing… that whoever bases his discourse on the prophetic Scriptures should abandon them and refrain from constantly referring to the same Scriptures, thinking that he himself can provide something better than Scripture” (Dialogue with Trypho) , Chapter 85)

Failure to constantly refer to the Scriptures is the most usual thing for a Catholic who is used to basing his doctrines on tradition, for thinking that “it can provide something better than Scripture”.

Justin was saying that if one claims to be making an argument from the Bible, they can’t forget about the Bible and start arguing in another way (which is self-evidently true). Catholics do not say that tradition or Church doctrines are “better than Scripture.” They say that both can be authoritative and also infallible, under the right conditions. That’s not “better, period”; rather, it is “equally authoritative and sometimes even infallible.”

It’s Lucas who is warring against straw men so far. He first presented one of Justin’s citations out of context, and now he doesn’t correctly understand his meaning and misrepresents the Catholic rule of faith. I assume in charity that he is doing so out of ignorance, not deliberate intent to be inaccurate.

4th Justin demonstrated what he said in the Scriptures.

-Texts: “He said he saw a ladder, and the Scripture declares that God was lifted up on it. But that this was not the Father, we demonstrate by the Scriptures… And that the rock symbolically proclaimed Christ, we also demonstrate by many Scriptures” (Dialogue with Trypho, Cap.86)

“Are you familiar with them, Trypho? They are contained in your Scriptures, nay, not yours, but ours. For us we believe in them, but although you read them, you do not capture the spirit that is in them” (Dialogue with Trypho, Chap.29)

“For Christ is King and Priest, he is God and Lord, both of angels and of men, he is captain, he is the stone, and was born a son, and for the first time he was subjected to suffering, and then he returned to heaven, and, again, coming with glory, He is announced as having the everlasting kingdom: so I taste of all the Scriptures” (Dialogue with Trypho, Chap.34)

“Reversing the Scriptures, I must endeavor to convince you that he who is said to have appeared to Abraham and Jacob and Moses, and who is called God, is different from him who made all things numerically” (Dialogue with Trypho, Chapter 56)

“I could have proved to you from the Scriptures that one of these three is God, and is called an Angel” (Dialogue with Trypho, Chap.56)

“Be assured, then, Trypho, who are established in the knowledge and faith of the Scriptures, of the counterfeits which he who is called the devil wrought among the Greeks” (Dialogue with Trypho, Cap.69)

“It is for this reason that I am, through fear, very sincere in my desire to converse with men according to the Scriptures, but not with those who have a love of money, or of glory, or of pleasure” (Dialogue with Trypho, Chapter 82)

Of course he did (but not exclusively so). So do we. It’s the hallmark of my entire ministry: Biblical Evidence for Catholicism (my blog); A Biblical Defense of Catholicism (my first book). But this is neither here nor there, with regard to proving that he supposedly believed in sola Scriptura. It proves nothing whatsoever about that. What’s interesting, then, is why Lucas and so many Protestants equate citing a lot of Bible in making theological arguments with sola Scriptura. That would make me one of the biggest supporters of sola Scriptura on the planet earth, if so. But in fact, I have written three books expressly against it.

It is noteworthy that Justin always insisted that in all doctrinal terms it was necessary to prove from the Scriptures what he was saying. Note that he never adds to “search in tradition”, but only in the Scriptures (=Sola Scriptura), . . .

“Never say never”! Keep reading . . .

which have always been the pillar and foundation of our faith. If there were hidden doctrines in Holy Scripture, then Justin would not be so insistent that what he himself said must be proved by Scripture. After all, why such a need and obligation to “prove something from the Scriptures” if, as Catholics insist on saying, there are a lot of doctrines that are simply not found in the Bible? In this case, such a need to have to prove all doctrines by “many Scriptures” would be useless, for Catholics themselves do not do that!

All Lucas’ citations from Justin so far are from the Dialogue with Trypho. Of course he cites the Old Testament Scripture because Trypho was Jewish, and this is what he accepts (as Justin said, above). It’s a basic misunderstanding to act as if this use of OT Scripture proves that he believed in sola Scriptura. Why would he cite any Christian tradition to a Jewish person, who couldn’t care less about that? He has to use a source that they both revere, which is the Old Testament.

5th Justin believed that it was necessary to prove doctrines by the Scriptures.

Repeating a falsehood over and over does not make it any less false.

-Texts: “But that this was not the Father, we must prove from the Scriptures” (Dialogue with Trypho, Cap.86)

“And that the stone symbolically proclaimed Christ, we must also prove by many Scriptures” (Dialogue with Trypho, Cap.86)

Note the term: “we have to prove it”, which refers to a necessity. Why such a need, if Catholics are more than convinced that there is no such need, in view of the supposed “insufficiency” of the Scriptures and that many doctrines are not there? If Catholic thought is right, what is the real purpose in being absolutely necessary to prove from many Scriptures about the doctrinal subject being treated? Why didn’t Justin just do like the Catholics, saying that nothing has to be in the Bible and that there’s no such need for any specific doctrine to be in the Bible? Note that what is being discussed here is not whether or not the matter in question is in the Bible, but why it is necessary to “have to prove” by the Scriptures, if not all doctrines need to be in them. In this case, even if there was a biblical passage about it, Justin could do like the Catholics and simply say that: “And that the stone symbolically proclaimed Christ, we will show in the Scriptures, although there would be no need for this, for we also have the oral tradition…” But, on the contrary, he says that he had to prove it by many Scriptures! That is, proving a doctrine by Scripture was absolutely necessary!

Already dealt with. Lucas seems completely oblivious as to the background context of the Dialogue with Trypho. And of course he continues to caricature the Catholic rule of faith.

6th Justin believed in the sufficiency of the Scriptures.

-Texts: “Now then, make us the proof that this man whom you say was crucified and ascended into heaven is the Christ of God. For you have sufficiently proved by the Scriptures already quoted by you, that it is declared in the Scriptures that Christ should suffer and enter again into glory, and receive the everlasting kingdom of all nations, and that every kingdom be subordinate to Him: now show us that this man is he” (Dialogue with Trypho, Cap.39)

“But you seem to me not to have heard the Scriptures what I said I had blotted out. For such as have been cited, they are more than sufficient to prove the points in dispute, besides those that are maintained by us, and yet to be presented” (Dialogue with Trypho, Cap.73)

The Scriptures are more than enough to prove the points in dispute! If that’s not proof of the sufficiency of Scripture—which is a principle of Sola Scriptura—then I don’t know what is!

So do we; so this accomplishes nothing in this debate. Lucas correctly notes that [material] sufficiency is a principle of Sola Scriptura”: but it is a principle or premise that is held in common with Catholics. So it doesn’t disprove our view to trot it out, when we already agree with that aspect. I wish I had a dollar for every time I have seen Protestant apologists foolishly repeat this basic category error, times without number. I’d be rich.

7th Justin believed in the inerrancy of Scripture.

-Text: “I am fully convinced that no Scripture contradicts another, and you should endeavor to convince those who imagine that the Scriptures are contradictory, instead of being of the same opinion as I am” (Dialogue with Trypho, Chap.65)

Interestingly, I’ve seen many Catholics claiming that the Bible is not infallible or inerrant, some even say it’s not the Word of God! Justin, however, was incisive in saying that in the Bible there are no contradictions, just as evangelicals do.

There are many individuals who call themselves Catholics but who do not fully accept the Catholic Church’s teachings (theological liberals or nominal Catholics). That has no bearing on what the Church actually teaches.

8th Justin believed in the free examination of the Bible.

-Text:

“I purpose to quote to you the Scriptures, not because I am anxious to make only an artistic exposition of words, for I have no such faculty, but because I have grace from God bestowed upon me for the understanding of his Scriptures.” (Dialogue with Trypho, Chap.58)

Note that Justin tells Trypho that he quotes the Scriptures to him because he had the grace of God to understand the Scriptures, even though he was neither the pope nor a Roman bishop. In fact, nothing in Justin’s biography, which can be read here or here, indicates that he ever held any position of ecclesiastical leadership in the Church. He was not pope, he was not a bishop, he was not a cardinal, he was not a presbyter, he was not born in Rome. It was not part of the “Magistery” [magisterium], according to the Catholic conception. And yet he said that God had given him the grace not only to search and quote the Scriptures, but to understand them!

Catholics don’t deny this possibility at all. We simply say that many others interpret the Bible wrongly (note all the heresies in the early centuries, that Lucas is well aware of), and so an authoritative Church is necessary in order to “check” those errors. Once again, this proves nothing as to whether Justin held to the falsehood of sola Scriptura. Lucas is fighting against air, or windmills, like Don Quixote.

9th Justin believed that doctrinal security comes from attachment to the Scriptures.

-Text: “I have commented to the lord, who is very anxious to be secure in all respects once you hold fast to the Scriptures” (Dialogue with Trypho, Chap.80)

We are not insecure if we have only Scripture to guide us, because holding on to Scripture means being secure in every way. If it is in all respects, then evidently the doctrinal aspect is not excluded from this picture. As we read Justin, we are well aware of the notion that we can be secure in all respects by holding to the Scriptures, and not just in “some” respects, as if the doctrinal aspect were left out and lacked the support of a tradition: extra-biblical oral.

Scripture is great and fantastic. That’s why the Catholic Church authoritatively pronounced its canon and preserved it through all those fifteen centuries before Protestantism existed. Next question?

10th Justin rejects human doctrines and asks to believe only if the Scriptures are frequently quoted.

-Text: “If I undertake to prove this by human doctrines or arguments, you must not agree with me, but if I frequently quote the Scriptures and ask you to understand them” (Dialogue with Trypho, Chap.68)

It is clear that the acceptance of the doctrine, in Justin’s view, was conditional on its substantiation in the light of Scripture, and not on any other human argument that might be offered.

Yes, because Trypho was a Jew.

In view of all this, we can only conclude that Justin believed as strongly or more strongly in Sola Scriptura as any Reformer of the 16th century.

This hasn’t been proven to the slightest degree. Not one whit of proof . . .

FINAL CONSIDERATIONS

In view of all this, it is indisputable that Justin believed in Sola Scriptura in the same way that it was proposed by the Reformers and believed by the early Christians. If such statements were in the mouth of a Luther or Calvin, they would be immediately rebuked by a Roman Catholic, but as it came from a second century man, venerated by the Catholic Church itself, the conversation changes, and they try in every way to omit and distort information, resorting to personal attacks, accusations and real mental juggling to deny everything Justino said so clearly and explicitly.

We don’t have to deny anything that Lucas has presented from Justin, because we agree with all of it. All this shows is that Lucas lacks an accurate understanding of 1) precisely what sola Scriptura means, and 2) the Catholic rule of faith.

• But what about the pagan authors that Justin quoted? Does that mean he doesn’t believe in Sola Scriptura?

Of course not. In the Bible itself there are many quotes from authors outside the Bible, such as the apocrypha of Enoch which is quoted in Jude 14, the book of the Assumption of Moses which is quoted in Jude 9, the Greek comedy Thais (written by the Greek poet Meander ) which is quoted by Paul in 1 Corinthians 15:33, from the work Cretica, by Epimenides (600 B.C.), which is quoted by Paul in Acts 17:28, from the work Phenomena, written by the Greek poet Aratus (315 – 240 B.C.) , or from Cleantus (331 – 233 B.C.) in his Hymn to Zeus, which has quotations from his works mentioned by the same apostle in Acts 17:28.

Very good. It’s correctly noted that it proves nothing as to the present debate.

This obviously does not mean that Paul, Jude or the other biblical writers believed in the inspiration or doctrinal source of such writings, it just means that the specific quote from which it was taken constitutes truth. I myself, who believe in Sola Scriptura, often cite other authors outside the Bible in support of a particular point of view or interpretation of a biblical text, and this in no way means that I stopped believing in Sola Scriptura because of this. The Reformers themselves, such as Luther and Calvin, quoted other authors, and that did not stop them from believing in Sola Scriptura. Why only with Justin would it have to be different?

It proves nothing: just as Lucas’ entire presentation above proves nothing (except that Justin loved the Bible; so do I and so does the Catholic Church) and is one massive non sequitur. Now I’ll give my complete argument, which is completely relevant to the topic:

The algebraic “x” factor here is how Justin Martyr views Church and Tradition in relationship to Holy Scripture. It doesn’t logically follow that he has no opinion on those things. We can’t know one way or the other what Justin believes about the rule of faith, based on only the above information. If it could be shown that he did not grant the Church and Tradition binding authority, and didn’t include them in the rule of faith, the anti-Catholics might have a valid point.

The data in this instance is fairly scarce, since Justin’s three surviving works are primarily philosophical and apologetic in nature, rather than theological, and the theology that Justin does discuss is only rarely related to ecclesiology or the rule of faith as here discussed. It’s highly unlikely, prima facie, that Justin would differ radically from the other pre-Nicene Church fathers. Justin was a major source for Irenaeus, who speaks of apostolic succession and tradition and Church authority all over the place. Yet despite these difficulties, I believe there is enough information to be had, to reject a sola Scriptura interpretation.

Justin doesn’t always mention only Scripture (as if he thinks it is the only source for truth):

. . . the Scriptures and the facts themselves . . . (Dialogue with Trypho, ch. 23)

I bring from the Scriptures and the facts themselves both the proofs and the inculcation of them, . . . But you hesitate to confess that He is Christ, as the Scriptures and the events witnessed and done in His name prove, . . . (Dialogue with Trypho, ch. 39)

In Chapter 76 of the Dialogue with Trypho, entitled “From Other Passages the Same Majesty and Government of Christ are Proved,” Justin referred to “an obscure prediction,” and of prophecies “proclaimed in mystery” and “declared obscurely,” and which “could not be understood by any man” until Jesus Himself expounded upon them. So much for “perspicuity” and the entirely self-interpreting nature of Scripture in the main. Catholics readily agree that Scripture often interprets itself. We simply deny that it always does, or that there is no need for authoritative interpretation from outside itself. Here is the above chapter in its entirety:

“For when Daniel speaks of ‘one like unto the Son of man’ who received the everlasting kingdom, does he not hint at this very thing? For he declares that, in saying ‘like unto the Son of man,’ He appeared, and was man, but not of human seed. And the same thing he proclaimed in mystery when he speaks of this stone which was cut out without hands. For the expression ‘it was cut out without hands’ signified that it is not a work of man, but [a work] of the will of the Father and God of all things, who brought Him forth. And when Isaiah says, ‘Who shall declare His generation?’ he meant that His descent could not be declared. Now no one who is a man of men has a descent that cannot be declared. And when Moses says that He will wash His garments in the blood of the grape, does not this signify what I have now often told you is an obscure prediction, namely, that He had blood, but not from men; just as not man, but God, has begotten the blood of the vine? And when Isaiah calls Him the Angel of mighty l counsel, did he not foretell Him to be the Teacher of those truths which He did teach when He came [to earth]? For He alone taught openly those mighty counsels which the Father designed both for all those who have been and shall be well-pleasing to Him, and also for those who have rebelled against His will, whether men or angels, when He said: ‘They shall come from the east [and from the west], and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven: but the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness.’ And, ‘ Many shall say to Me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not eaten, and drunk, and prophesied, and cast out demons in Thy name? And I will say to them, Depart from Me.’ Again, in other words, by which He shall condemn those who are unworthy of salvation, He said, Depart into outer darkness, which the Father has prepared for Satan and his, angels.’ And again, in other words, He said, ‘I give unto you power to tread on serpents, and on scorpions, and on scolopendras, and on all the might of the enemy.’ And now we, who believe on our Lord Jesus, who was crucified under Pontius Pilate, when we exorcise all demons and evil spirits, have them subjected to us. For if the prophets declared obscurely that Christ would suffer, and thereafter be Lord of all, yet that [declaration] could not be understood by any man until He Himself persuaded the apostles that such statements were expressly related in the Scriptures. For He exclaimed before His crucifixion: ‘The Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected by the Scribes and Pharisees, and be crucified, and on the third day rise again.’ And David predicted that He would be born from the womb before sun and moon, according to the Father’s will, and made Him known, being Christ, as God strong and to be worshipped.”

If no one could have understood these prophecies until Jesus fulfilled and explained them, of what use is Scripture Alone in that case? It would be of no use whatever, without the Teacher to give the proper sense of the prophecies. Compare Justin’s similar statements:

Up to the time of Jesus Christ, who taught us, and interpreted the prophecies which were not yet understood, . . . (First Apology, Chapter XXXII)

But in no instance, not even in any of those called sons of Jupiter, did they imitate the being crucified; for it was not understood by them, all the things said of it having been put symbolically. (First Apology, Chapter LV)

This brings to mind Jesus’ conversation with the two disciples on the road to Emmaus (Luke 24:13-35). Scripture states:

Luke 24:27 (RSV) And beginning with Moses and all the prophets, he interpreted to them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

The two disciples later marveled at how Jesus “opened to us the Scriptures” (Lk 24:32). In other words, those prophecies were not understood until Jesus explained them, and in fact, most of the Jews did not see that they were fulfilled. Thus, Old Testament Scripture was insufficient for these messianic truths to be grasped simply by reading them. One could retort that the Jews were hard-hearted and thus could not understand since they had not the Holy Spirit and God’s grace to illumine their understanding.

But that proves too much because it would also have to apply to these two disciples, and indeed all of the disciples, who did not understand what was happening, even after Jesus repeatedly told them that He was to suffer and to die, and that this was all foretold. They didn’t “get it” till after He was crucified. Justin Martyr noted himself that the disciples had not understood the very Psalms he was expounding:

The rest of the Psalm shows that He knew that His Father would grant all His requests, and would raise Him from the dead. It also shows that He encouraged all who fear God to praise Him, because through the mystery of the Crucified One He had mercy on the faithful of every race; and that He stood in the midst of His brethren, the Apostles (who, after He arose from the dead and convinced them that He had warned them before the Passion that He had to suffer, and that this was foretold by the Prophets, were most sorry that they had abandoned Him at the crucifixion). (Dialogue with Trypho, Chapter 106)

The Phillips Modern English translation renders Luke 24:32 as, “he made the scriptures plain to us.” The Greek word for “opened” is dianoigo (Strong’s word #1272). According to Joseph Thayer’s Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament (Grand Rapids, Michigan: Baker Book House, 1977 reprint of 1901 edition, p. 140), it means “to open by dividing or drawing asunderto open thoroughly (what had been closed).”

This meaning can be seen in other passages where dianoigo appears: Mk 7:34-35, Lk 2:23, 24:31,45, Acts 16:14, 17:3). Obviously, then, Holy Scripture is informing us that some parts of it were “closed” and “not plain” until the “infallible” teaching authority and interpretation of our Lord Jesus opened it up and made it plain.

This runs utterly contrary to the Protestant notion of perspicuity of Scripture and its more or less ubiquitous self-interpreting nature; also to biblical passages such as 1 Peter 1:20: “. . . no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one’s own private interpretation” (cf. Peter’s description of Paul’s letters: “There are some things in them hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures”: 2 Peter 3:16). The need for an interpreter was also illustrated in the story of Philip and the Ethiopian eunuch:

Acts 8:28, 30-31 . . . he was reading the prophet Isaiah . . . So Philip ran to him, and heard him reading Isaiah the prophet, and asked, “Do you understand what you are reading?” And he said, “How can I, unless someone guides me?”

It turns out that he was reading Isaiah 53:7-8, as we are informed in Acts 8:32-33. Philip then interprets the passage as referring to Jesus, and preaches the gospel to the eunuch (Acts 8:35). An authoritative interpreter was needed. And no one can say that the eunuch didn’t understand because of “hardness of heart” because subsequent events show that he was willing to accept the truth (as he got baptized in Acts 8:38). He simply didn’t have enough information. He needed the authoritative (“infallible,” if you will) teacher. Old Testament Scripture (which was Justin’s primary Scripture) was not sufficient enough for him to come to the knowledge of the truth.

One might also note that Justin Martyr’s routine casual assumption that his own interpretations of a host of biblical passages are self-evident, clear, etc., is itself highly questionable. Protestant Bible scholar F. F. Bruce commented upon this, in his analysis of Justin’s Dialogue with Trypho:

Both appeal to the Old Testament, but they cannot agree on its meaning, because they argue from incompatible principles of interpretation. Quite often, indeed, the modern Christian reader is bound to agree with Trypho’s interpretation against Justin’s. For example, they discuss the incident of the burning bush . . . Trypho says, ‘This is not what we understand from the words quoted: we understand that, while it was an angel that appeared in a flame of fire, it was God who spoke to Moses.’ [Dialogue, 60.1] Here Trypho’s understanding is sounder than Justin’s.

. . . Justin’s Greek text of Psalm 96:10) (LXX 95:10) read ‘the Lord reigned from the tree‘ – to him a clear prediction of the crucifixion. Trypho’s Bible did not contain these additional words (and neither does ours). ‘Whether the rulers of our people’, said Trypho, ‘have erased any portion of the scriptures, as you allege, God knows; but it seems incredible.’ [Dialogue, 73] Again, Trypho was right.

. . . Justin Martyr . . . evidently regards the Septuagint version as the only reliable text of the Old Testament. Where it differs from the Hebrew text, as read and interpreted by the Jews, the Jews (he says) have corrupted the text so as to obscure the scriptures’ plain prophetic testimony to Jesus as the Christ. (The Canon of Scripture, Downers Grove, Illinois: InterVarsity Press, 1988, 65-66)

As we would expect at that early stage in the development of the canon of Scripture, Justin Martyr did not have a clear understanding of which books belong in the New Testament. F. F. Bruce contends that he “appears to quote” the Gospel of Peter. He elaborates, in a footnote:

In First Apology 36.6, speaking of the passion of Christ, Justin says, ‘And indeed, as the prophet had said, they dragged him and made him sit on the judgment-seat, saying “Judge us”.’ Compare Gospel of Peter 3:6 f. where Jesus enemies ‘made him sit on a judgment-seat, saying “Judge righteously, O king of Israel!”‘ The prophet referred to by Justin is Isaiah (cf Is. 58:2). The idea that Jesus was made to sit on the judgment-seat could have arisen from a mistranslation of John 19:13 (as though it meant not ‘Pilate sat’ but ‘Pilate made him sit’). (Ibid., 200-201)

Here is the passage from Justin:

And as the prophet spoke, they tormented Him, and set Him on the judgment-seat, and said, Judge us. And the expression, “They pierced my hands and my feet,” was used in reference to the nails of the cross which were fixed in His hands and feet. And after He was crucified they cast lots upon His vesture, and they that crucified Him parted it among them. And that these things did happen, you can ascertain from the Acts of Pontius Pilate. (First Apology, 35 – Bruce appears to have mistakenly cited chapter 36)

Finally, according to the eminent 19th-century Protestant patristics scholar Brooke Foss Westcott, there is some indication in Justin of acceptance of an apostolic Tradition, including an oral component. After an exhaustive, remarkable 75-page exposition of Justin’s understanding of the canon of the New Testament. Westcott concludes:

There are indeed traces of the recognition of an authoritative Apostolic doctrine in Justin, but it cannot be affirmed from the form of his language that he looked upon this as contained in a written New Testament. ‘We have been commanded,’ he says, ‘by Christ Himself to obey not the teaching of men but those precepts which were proclaimed by the blessed Prophets and taught by Himself.’ [Dialogue 48] But this teaching of Christ was not strictly limited to His own words, as Justin explains in another passage:

As [Abraham] believed on the voice of God and it was reckoned to him for righteousness, in the same way we also when we believed the voice of God which was spoken again by the Apostles of Christ, and the voice which was proclaimed to us by the Prophets, even to dying [for our belief], renounced all that is in the world. [Dialogue, 119]

Thus the words of the Apostles were in his view in some sense the words of Christ, and we are therefore justified in interpreting his language generally, so as to accord with the certain judgment of his immediate successors. His writings mark the era of transition from the oral to the written Rule. His recognition of a New Testament was practical and not formal. As yet the circumstances of the Christian Church had not led to the final separation of the Canonical writings of the Apostles from others which claimed more or less directly to be stamped with their authority. (A General Survey of the History of the Canon of the New Testament, Grand Rapids, Michigan: Baker Book House, 1980, from the 1889 sixth edition, 172-173)

Following are the two passages cited by Westcott, along with similar thoughts in Justin Martyr’s Dialogue with Trypho:

For we have been told by Christ Himself not to follow the teachings of men, but only those which have been announced by the holy Prophets and taught by Himself. (Dialogue with Trypho, Chapter 48)

What greater favor, then, did Christ bestow on Abraham? This: that He likewise called with His voice, and commanded him to leave the land wherein he dwelt. And with that same voice He has also called of us, and we have abandoned our former way of life in which we used to practice evils common to the rest of the world. And we will inherit the Holy Land together with Abraham, receiving our inheritance for all eternity, because by our similar faith we have become children of Abraham. For, just as he believed the voice of God, and was justified thereby, so have we believed the voice of God (which was spoken again to us by the Prophets and the Apostles of Christ), and have renounced even to death all worldly things. (Dialogue with Trypho, Chapter 119)

“The twelve bells which had to be attached to the long robe of the high priest, were representative of the twelve Apostles, who relied upon the power of Christ, the Eternal Priest. Through their voices the whole world is filled with the glory and grace of God and His Christ. David testified to this truth when he said: ‘Their sound has gone forth into all the earth, and their words to the ends of the world‘ [Ps 18.5]. [2] And Isaiah speaks as though in the person of the Apostles (when they relate to Christ that the people were convinced, not by their words, but by the power of Him who sent them), and says: ‘Lord, who has believed our report, and to whom is the arm of the Lord revealed? We have preached before Him as a little child, as if a root in a thirsty ground‘ [Isa 53.1-2]. (And the rest of the prophecy as quoted above.) [3] When the passage, spoken in the name of many, states: ‘We have preached before Him,’ and adds, ‘as a little child,’ it proves that sinners will obey Him as servants, and will all become as one child in His sight. An example of this is had in a human body: although it is made up of many members, it is called, and is, one body. So also in the case of the people and the Church: although they are many individuals, they form one body and are called by one common name. (Dialogue with Trypho, Chapter 42)

From Isaiah we know that the Prophets who were sent to carry His messages to man are called angels and apostles of God, for Isaiah uses the expression, ‘Send me’ [Isa 6.8]. (Dialogue with Trypho, Chapter 75)

. . . we Christians, who have gained a knowledge of the true worship of God from the Law and from the word which went forth from Jerusalem by way of the Apostles of Jesus, . . . (Dialogue with Trypho, Chapter 110)

All of this shows the likelihood that Justin Martyr did not hold to sola Scriptura. Nothing seen in Justin is inconsistent with the perennial Catholic understanding of authority. His thought is simply at an early stage of Christian development, as we would fully expect in the 2nd century. Loving Scripture and believing it is materially sufficient is not enough to establish that one believes in sola Scriptura, or else I myself would be an enthusiastic proponent of it, whereas in fact I think it is a dangerous falsehood not found in the New Testament and viciously self-defeating. What Lucas has produced as “proof” in no way, shape, or form, proves what he erroneously thinks it proves.

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Photo credit: Lucas Banzoli, Facebook photo as of 5-3-22, dated 15 January 2018.

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Summary: Brazilian Protestant apologist Lucas Banzoli attempts to show that Justin Martyr held to sola Scriptura, but only proves his belief in the truth of material sufficiency.

May 23, 2022

[book and purchase information]

Pedro França Gaião is, from what I can make out, a former Catholic, and now a Protestant. He is from Rio de Janeiro, Brazil, and currently lives in Sioux City, Iowa. I was drawn into a lively discussion about sacred tradition and the old debate about one or two sources. This occurred in a lengthy thread on the Facebook page of my Brazilian Catholic friend, Leandro Cerqueira. Pedro is one of those delightful anti-Catholic polemicists who condescendingly assumes that he understands Catholic doctrine better than (educated) Catholics do themselves.

He had been writing on this topic of Bible and tradition and material sufficiency of Scripture on his (public) Facebook page prior to the free-for-all discussion that I eventually entered into. I will make preliminary observations, post the Facebook discussion and debate that occurred (including many additional present replies, in brackets).

Pedro’s words will be in blue. He is, of course, most welcome — along with anyone else who is civil and not a troll — to offer further replies in the combox underneath this blog post.

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Pedro made the following absurd comment on his own Facebook page:

The rise of the defense of Material Sufficiency by the enemies of Sola Scriptura is oddly a victory for Sola Scriptura and a general failure for the religions that opposed it. (5-19-22)

That will be mercilessly disposed of below. He took a potshot at me, personally, regarding my views on material sufficiency and also on Augustine’s views of images:

There is also the possibility that he is dishonest or really stupid. In one of his texts he defends that Augustine was an iconodula [one who accepts religious images] and in the other he says that he was an aniconist [iconoclast, or opposer of images as idolatrous] but that the doctrine had developed. Logic, there is no such thing. (5-19-22)
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I have no idea where he is getting this from. He provides no link or even name of a writing where I supposedly stated such a ridiculous thing. St. Augustine does, however, change his mind at times, so there is some possibility that he did as regards images. But I could never say something as stupid and clueless as “the doctrine of images developed from it being idolatry to it’s being okay.” That completely perverts Newmanian development (the very thing that made me a Catholic), and so it’s utterly impossible that I ever argued in such a fashion since my conversion in 1990. Therefore, Pedro is distorting my words. In charity, I will assume it’s because he is incompetent in his research (at least where I am concerned) or ignorant, rather than deliberately lying.
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I think I may have found the passage in my writing that Pedro is talking about. The following is from my article, “Veneration of Images, Iconoclasm, & Idolatry (An Exposition)” [11-15-02]. The words in brown are from Anglican Nonjuror Bishops in 1722:
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To this we may add, that the Council of Constantinople held under Constantine Copronymus, against images, asserts that there was no prayer in the church service for consecrating images, a suggestion which the 2nd Council of Nicaea (i.e., the Seventh Ecumenical Council) does not deny. And St. Augustine, mentioning some superstitious Christians (for so he calls them), says he knew a great many who venerated images (August. De Moribus Eccl. Cath. cap. 34).

[Protestant patristics scholar Phillip] Schaff elaborates:

Even Augustine laments that among the rude Christian masses there are many image-worshippers, but counts such in the great number of those nominal Christians, to whom the essence of the Gospel is unknown. (History of the Christian Church, Vol. III: Nicene and Post-Nicene Christianity, New York: Scribner’s, 5th edition, 1910, reprinted by Eerdmans, Grand Rapids, Michigan, 1974, 573)

This hardly proves that the practice [of veneration of images] was not widespread; only that among the ignorant abuses of it occurred, which is no news, but a self-evident truth which holds in all times and places. Elsewhere St. Augustine writes:

A Christian people celebrates together in religious solemnity the memorials of the martyrs, both to encourage their being imitated and so that it can share in their merits and be aided by their prayers. But it is done in such a way that our altars are not set up to any one of the martyrs, – although in their memory, – but to God Himself, the God of those martyrs. (Against Faustus the Manichaean, c. 400,  20-21, from William A. Jurgens, The Faith of the Early Fathers [Collegeville, Minnesota: The Liturgical Press, 1979, vol. 3, 59] )

I looked up the section brought up above, from On the Morals of the Catholic Church (chapter 34). Here is what St. Augustine wrote:

75. Do not summon against me professors of the Christian name, who neither know nor give evidence of the power of their profession. Do not hunt up the numbers of ignorant people, who even in the true religion are superstitious, or are so given up to evil passions as to forget what they have promised to God. I know that there are many worshippers of tombs and pictures. I know that there are many who drink to great excess over the dead, and who, in the feasts which they make for corpses, bury themselves over the buried, and give to their gluttony and drunkenness the name of religion. . . .

76. My advice to you now is this: that you should at least desist from slandering the Catholic Church, by declaiming against the conduct of men whom the Church herself condemns, seeking daily to correct them as wicked children.

St. Augustine is condemning, of course, those “ignorant” professed Christians who adore or worship images (and tombs!) with an idolatrous devotion that belongs to God alone: which the Church condemns. He is not against the proper veneration of images, as the citation from Against Faustus shows. Augustine also wrote elsewhere:

But in regard to pictures and statues, and other works of this kind, which are intended as representations of things, nobody makes a mistake, especially if they are executed by skilled artists, but every one, as soon as he sees the likenesses, recognizes the things they are likenesses of. (On Christian Doctrine, Book II,  ch. 25, sec. 39)

Typically of anti-Catholics, Pedro seems to be suffering from the self-delusion that material sufficiency of Scripture is somehow logically reduced to an adherence to sola Scriptura. It’s not at all. I had written just two articles on the topic (i.e., with “material sufficiency” in the title), but often mention material sufficiency in passing because of this canard from the anti-Catholics that it represents Catholics caving into a sola Scriptura mentality and departing from historic Catholicism. This is sheer nonsense. Here are those two efforts:

Mary’s Assumption vs. Material Sufficiency of Scripture? [4-22-07]

Material Sufficiency of Scripture is NOT Sola Scriptura [2009]

I made fun of this anti-Catholic foolishness of pretending that any Catholic who heavily cites the Bible must be a secret, subversive believer in sola Scriptura, in my partly tongue-in-cheek paper: Sola Scriptura: Church Fathers (?), & Myself (?), by Analogy [2-7-07]. See also the related: Biblical Argumentation: Same as Sola Scriptura? [10-7-03].

I do have, however, a section entitled, “Material and Formal Sufficiency of Scripture / Rule of Faith” on my Bible and Tradition web page. It lists 31 of my articles. Here are a few key portions of my 2009 paper above (itself largely drawn from books written in 2002 and 2003):

305. All who accept sola Scriptura believe in material sufficiency, but not vice versa. That’s the fallacy often present in these sorts of discussions.

307. Biblical statements about material sufficiency and inspiration of Scripture don’t prove either sola Scriptura or the formal sufficiency of Scripture.

308. If Catholics affirm the material sufficiency of Scripture, then it cannot be the case that “material sufficiency” is essentially a synonym for sola Scriptura.

311. All true Christian doctrines are either explicitly stated in the Bible, or able to be deduced from solid biblical evidences (i.e., I accept the material sufficiency of Scripture). In my opinion, sola Scriptura falls under neither category.

318. Materially sufficiency is the belief that all Christian doctrines can be found in Holy Scripture, either explicitly or implicitly, or deducible from the explicit testimony of Holy Scripture (Catholics fully agree with that). It does not mean that Scripture is the “only” source of doctrine (in a sense which excludes tradition and the Church). That is what formal sufficiency means.

319. I believe in the material sufficiency of Scripture myself, and this is an acceptable Catholic position. I deny that Scripture is formally sufficient as an authority over against apostolic succession, biblically consistent and biblically based Tradition, and the Church (however the latter is defined). I deny that Scripture itself teaches either formal sufficiency or sola Scriptura.

320. Material sufficiency of Scripture is the view that all Christian doctrines can be found in Scripture, explicitly or implicitly; fully developed or in kernel form. Catholics hold to this. Formal sufficiency of Scripture is the adoption of the principle of sola Scriptura as the Rule of Faith. Catholics deny that, and I say that the Fathers (being Catholics from an earlier, less theologically and ecclesiologically developed period) do as well.

321. Binding Church authority is a practical necessity, given the propensity of men to pervert the true apostolic Tradition as taught in Scripture, whether it is perspicuous or not. The fact remains that diverse interpretations arise, and a final authority outside of Scripture itself is needed in order to resolve those controversies. This does not imply in the least that Scripture itself (rightly understood) is not sufficient to overcome the errors. It is only formally insufficient by itself.

322. It is no novel thing for a Catholic (or someone who has a view similar to Catholics regarding the Rule of Faith) to compare Scripture with Scripture. I write entire books and dozens of papers where I consult Scripture Alone to make my arguments (precisely because I am arguing with Protestants and they don’t care what Catholic authorities state on a subject). It doesn’t follow that I have therefore adopted the Protestant Rule of Faith. This is extraordinarily weak argumentation (insofar as it can be called that at all).

323. I write entire books and huge papers citing nothing but Scripture. It doesn’t mean for a second that I don’t respect the binding authority of the Catholic Church or espouse sola Scriptura. St. Athanasius made some extensive biblical arguments. Great. Making such arguments, doing exegesis, extolling the Bible, reading the Bible, discussing it, praising it, etc., etc., etc., are all well and good (and Catholics agree wholeheartedly); none of these things, however, reduce to or logically necessitate adoption of sola Scriptura as a formal principle, hard as that is for some people to grasp.

325. Being “scriptural” and being in accordance with sola Scriptura are not one and the same. This is a clever sleight of hand often employed by Protestant apologists (akin to the fish not knowing that it is in water: to the Protestant, sola Scriptura is the water he lives in or the air he breathes; thus taken absolutely for granted), but it is a basic fallacy, according to Protestants’ own given definition of sola Scriptura, which is, broadly speaking, as follows:

Sola Scripturathe belief that Scripture is the only final, infallible authority in matters of Christian doctrine.

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For something to be “scriptural” or “biblical” on the other hand, is to be in accord with the following qualifications:

“Biblical” / “scriptural”: supported by Scripture directly or implicitly or by deduction from explicit or implicit biblical teaching; secondarily: not contradicting biblical teaching.

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As we can see, the two things are quite different. This is how and why a Catholic can be entirely committed to explaining and defending Catholic doctrine from Holy Scripture (indeed, it is my apologetic specialty and the focus of most of my published books), while not adhering to sola Scriptura in the slightest. Protestants don’t have a monopoly on Scripture; nor is sola Scriptura necessary to thoroughly ground doctrines in Scripture. The Protestant merely assumes this (usually without argument) and goes on his merry way.

Pedro came onto my Facebook page, asking: “could you answer me a question on how Catholic Church view the issue of Material Sufficiency?” (5-21-22) I provided him with a link to my 2009 article (cited at length above) and also, Jimmy Akin’s excellent 2005 article, “The Complex Relationship between Scripture and Tradition.” I now cite highlights from the latter:

The relationship between Scripture and Tradition comes up regularly in contemporary Catholic apologetics. According to one Catholic view, Scripture and Tradition are two sources of revelation. Some divine truths are found in the Bible, while others are found in Tradition. This “two source” model has a long history, but it also has some difficulties. One is that there is considerable overlap between the two sources. . . .

Speaking of Scripture and Tradition as two sources could lead one to overlook this overlap, which is so considerable that some Catholics have pondered how much of the Protestant idea of sola scriptura a Catholic can agree with. Sola scriptura is understood in different ways among Protestants, but it is commonly taken to mean that the Bible contains all of the material needed to do theology. According to this theory, a theologian does not need to look to Tradition — or at least does not need to give Tradition an authoritative role.

This view is not acceptable to Catholics. As the Second Vatican Council stressed in its constitution Dei Verbum, “It is not from Sacred Scripture alone that the Church draws its certainty about everything that has been revealed. Therefore both Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture are to be accepted and venerated with the same sense of loyalty and reverence” (DV 9).

One of the principal architects of Dei Verbum was the French theologian Yves Congar, who thought Catholics could acknowledge a substantial element of truth in sola scriptura.

He wrote that “we can admit sola scriptura in the sense of a material sufficiency of canonical Scripture. This means that Scripture contains, in one way or another, all truths necessary for salvation” (Tradition and Traditions, 410).

He encapsulated this idea with the slogan Totum in scriptura, totum in traditione (“All is in Scripture, all is in Tradition”), which he attributes to Cardinal Newman. According to this theory, Scripture and Tradition would not be two sources containing different material but two modes of transmitting the same deposit of faith. We might call it the “two modes” view as opposed to the “two source” view.

The decrees of Trent and Vatican II allow Catholics to hold the two-mode idea, but they do not require it. A Catholic is still free to hold the two-source view. . . .

One of the most accurate descriptions of the Catholic rule of faith and the view of the early Church that I’ve seen comes from Protestant historian Heiko Oberman:

As regards the pre-Augustinian Church, there is in our time a striking convergence of scholarly opinion that Scripture and Tradition are for the early Church in no sense mutually exclusive: kerygma, Scripture and Tradition coincide entirely. The Church preaches the kerygma which is to be found in toto in written form in the canonical books. 

The Tradition is not understood as an addition to the kerygma contained in Scripture but as the handing down of that same kerygma in living form: in other words everything is to be found in Scripture and at the same time everything is in the living Tradition. 

It is in the living, visible Body of Christ, inspired and vivified by the operation of the Holy Spirit, that Scripture and Tradition coinhere . . . Both Scripture and Tradition issue from the same source: the Word of God, Revelation . . . Only within the Church can this kerygma be handed down undefiled . . . (The Harvest of Medieval Theology, Grand Rapids, Michigan: Eerdmans, revised edition, 1967, 366-367)

Now — having done the preliminary work — onto the exchange with Pedro. I will offer some additional thoughts afterwards:

[A passage from my book, 100 Biblical Arguments Against Sola Scriptura was cited in Portugese in a screenshot (so I couldn’t translate it)]

I know what Armstrong is doing here, you probably don’t.

Who cited me and what was the claim made about my position? What do you mean by “I know what Armstrong is doing here”? (“Eu sei oq o Armstrong está fazendo aqui, você provavelmente não”).

[he never answered]

You’re gonna force me to go talk to him [i.e., myself], and he probably won’t text me back. . . . I don’t think he will answer.

I answered him within three hours on my Facebook page (I had been watching TV the previous few hours), and came into the big Facebook discussion where I engaged him, after being tagged and notified by PM.

The article by Akin explains [this overall issue] fully and my article has further thoughts. But the quick answer is no: Scripture and tradition were both part of the apostolic deposit, but this is not opposed at all to material sufficiency of Scripture; only formal sufficiency (sola Scriptura). Vatican II also referred to Bible and Tradition as the “twin fonts of the same divine wellspring.” A perfect description . . .

In fact that’s not what I was arguing about. My point is that Material Sufficiency is not a Catholic Dogma, an official position or the only position regarding Scripture and Tradition.
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[correct; as Jimmy Akin noted]
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I was arguing that material sufficiency, or One Source Theory or Totum-totum is a position formulated by Geiselman in the 50’s as an opposition to the Two Sources Theory. Leandro is denying Geiselman’s point that Bellarmine, Eck and other Catholic apologists were opposed to material sufficiency (he says all Catholics believe in both of them) and that Catholics believe generally in a definition of Two Source Theory and material sufficiency that work together instead of opposing views like Thomism and Molinism. I noticed you support material sufficiency in your book, but Leandro is arguing you supported the Two Source Theory together with material sufficiency. I was arguing you simply defended a single theory and not both of them, as you didn’t mention both.
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Trent Horn in his book says those two theories are different, but many people in Brazil ignore that, since few people in Catholicism actually distinguish them, so they must either be complementary or [else] it’s generally [seen that] they were compatible.

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[replying to others, referencing me] He didn’t solve anything. They didn’t ask him what was discussed.

[Pedro came to my Facebook page, specifically asking me about material sufficiency, not all this other business about one or two sources of tradition, etc. I responded in kind, there and in this group discussion]

Catholics are free to believe either. You are correct about that. In fact, almost all Catholics today believe in the material sufficiency of Scripture. The partim-partim polemic is largely an irrelevancy from the 16th century. It’s not either/or. Tradition is included in the deposit. But only Scripture is inspired, of course.

But both the Two Source Theory and the One Source Theory (Material Sufficiency) are different Views on Tradition and Scripture, Right? My point here, the main one at least, is that they are different and not “one and the same” or “they can be believed at the same time”.
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[I didn’t directly answer because I felt that the linked Jimmy Akin article answered the question, but I do answer directly now: Yes. That said, I still think Pedro is confused about the relation of all these factors in the Catholic system, concerning Bible and tradition. I know that for sure because he made the erroneous statement on his own page: “The rise of the defense of Material Sufficiency by the enemies of Sola Scriptura is oddly a victory for Sola Scriptura. This alone proves that he is way over his head in discussing this issue]
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Your task is to get beyond all these side-trails and defend sola Scriptura from Holy Scripture. No Protestant has ever done it. I’ve written 3 1/2 books on the topic [one / two / three / four] and recently challenged five prominent Protestants on YouTube [one / two / three / four / five]. None were willing to even grapple with my arguments. But hey, maybe you’ll be the first, huh? The pioneer!
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That’s another subject, [and] we could debate about it, of course. But the current issue is: Two Source Theory is a position, and Material Sufficiency is another position, an opposite position. Do you agree with that?
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[present more direct answer: I agree that one- and two-source theories are competing theories (both allowed in Catholicism, with the former now the majority position), but I don’t think material sufficiency is somehow inexorably opposed to the necessary role of sacred tradition. It’s not at all]
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I gave my main reply in the form of two articles: mine and Jimmy Akin’s. In a constructive discussion, you actually deal with the other guy’s answer; you don’t keep asking the same question. But in the end it’s a non-issue. The Catholic rule of faith is Bible-Tradition-Church. It’s a fully biblical position, whereas sola Scriptura is extra-biblical and unbiblical. It’s a tradition of men.
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The real issue to discuss is whether tradition and Church can be infallible under certain conditions, or if only the Bible can ever be that. Catholics and Orthodox hold to the former; Protestants to the latter. But we can defend our view from Scripture and history; they cannot.
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I think Pedro knows this, which would explain why he refuses to defend what he must: only Scripture is the infallible authority for Christian doctrine. I don’t blame him. I sure wouldn’t want to defend a position that has nothing at all going for it in the Bible (or Church history). It’s an impossible task.
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When you can’t defend what you necessarily must for your system to exist in the first place, then you obfuscate and engage in obscurantism, to make an illusory appearance of strength where there is none. Every unscrupulous lawyer who has no case to make (no facts or evidence on his side) does this.
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Nothing personal; it’s just the self-defeating nature of Protestantism. Pedro might be the smartest man in the world, but as the old saying goes, “you can’t make a silk purse out of a sow’s [pig’s] ear.”
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The answer I expected is: Material Sufficiency is a position formulated to oppose the Two Source Theory and that both have different and opposite views on How Tradition and Scripture Works.
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[present answer. Yes, they are two different views on a very complex, multi-faceted, and nuanced matter. Because it’s so complicated, both are allowed by the Church, just as Thomist and Molinist interpretations of predestination are both allowed, since predestination is one of the most difficult topics in theology and philosophy. My point, that I kept making in the exchange, was that anti-Catholic apologists use this non-issue as a ploy or cynical “gotcha!” tactic to avoid talking about the real bottom-line issue between Catholics and Protestants: sola Scriptura vs. a “three-legged stool” rule of faith. ]
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I’m saying that because normal Catholics who read your book think you’re defending the Two Source Theory, while I noticed in that book you simply downplayed it while arguing for Material Sufficiency. Catholics in Brazil don’t care to teach those things because they “make weak faithful weaker”. I was inside this system. I know how it works. It’s a shame that you [wrote] all of this but couldn’t give direct answers that wouldn’t even be controversial to you as an apologist. It’s simply no monkey business, just helping Catholics to understand their doctrines correctly.
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[present answer: What would we do without your kind, benevolent, wise assistance, Pedro? How would we ever come to understand our own doctrine without a former Catholic Protestant — who detests it — helpfully explaining it to us? (note: heavy sarcasm) ]
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Once again: it’s a non-issue in the larger scheme of things. This is just a game that Protestant polemicists play, in order to avoid what they must do: defend sola Scriptura from Scripture. I’ve dealt with this for 27 years, starting with Bishop “Dr.” [???] James White: probably the leading Protestant debater of Catholics. You won’t come up with anything he hasn’t already dished out from the latrine, believe me. My answers are in the two articles I posted.
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I wasn’t engaged in a three-day discussion on sola Scriptura, but on the poor [job] of Catholic apologists to actually teach their concepts.. . . I’m not saying sola Scriptura shouldn’t be discussed at all, but that this three-day discussion must be [re]solved, and [that] many Catholics have a hard time admitting they are wrong on their own views of their own religion.
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[present answer: there is no “right or wrong” in the sense of what the Church requires concerning this matter, because both views are allowed. This is why it is an irrelevant issue (at least on the lay, popular level), and “beating a dead horse.” I simply noted that the majority view of both allowable positions is currently material sufficiency of Scripture and the one-source theory. I don’t think that came from the 1950s, as Pedro absurdly does. It’s in the Church fathers, arguably in Scripture itself, and was most notably refined and explained by St. John Henry Cardinal Newman in the 19th century]
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I’m not running away from anything. Leandro Cerqueira was a mediator in my debate on sola Scriptura against a Catholic [who did] poorly. And yes, if you are so demanding [regarding] that, I could do the same with you on the YouTube. I challenged Scott Hahn before; it’s no big deal really. But I have to settle some things . . . before eventually discussing our differences.
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[present answer. I do written debates — because I think they have far more substance and seriousness — , and am not on YouTube, as is fairly well-known, though lately I’ve been offering critiques of YouTube videos from Protestants. I’ve done more than 1000 debates of some sort over 25 years online, with almost every imaginable opposing position against Catholicism or Christianity in general. Nor have I been on many radio broadcasts or podcasts, though I have been interviewed on radio about 25 times since 1997. I’m not demanding anything. I simply said that your task is to prove sola Scriptura from the Bible.  In my 31 years as a Catholic apologist, I’ve never seen any Protestant do this. I would be absolutely delighted to see you try to do that. And I guarantee that I will be able to refute whatever you come up with. That’s how supremely confident I am on that issue. I’ve written more about it than any other topic.]
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I defend the “three-legged stool” rule of faith: Bible-Tradition-Church. This sufficiency stuff is just a side-trail to avoid defending sola Scriptura, which is why I have only two articles about it posted on my blog, out of more than 4,000 articles. You have one ultimate burden [as to Bible-Tradition issues] and one alone: defend sola Scriptura from Scripture. People ought to ignore you if you can’t do that and refuse to go on these wild goose chases with you. It simply strengthens your self-delusion if we do that.
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In any of those articles do you say both theories are opposite and different? That’s the issue here.
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[I haven’t written much at all about the one- or two-sources of tradition debate, for the very reasons I give here, so maybe not. But I have clarified in this present paper with additional answers that yes, they are two competing theories.]
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“Material sufficiency” of Scripture is such a non-entity in the daily life of a Catholic, that the term never appears in the Catechism, which is our sure norm of faith. You can try to look it up in the Portugese version. It’s certainly not there in English: at least not those words.
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I’m aware it doesn’t, such as [it doesn’t address] many other things. But if you are saying Catholicism has a position on what Tradition is, or the available positions, those should be made clear by anyone trying to attack Sola Scriptura. Most don’t already know sola Scriptura. If they don’t know what they are arguing, the debate level gets poor on the account of the Catholics.
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[our view on tradition is made clear in Dei Verbum from the Vatican II documents, and in the Catechism. If someone wants abundant popular-level apologetics treatments, they can consult my three books or very extensive collection of articles on my Bible and Tradition web page. The debate over that is utterly irrelevant when it comes to the issue of sola Scriptura. Both views of the source[s] of tradition in Catholicism hold to an infallible tradition and Church under certain conditions. Sola Scriptura denies that. That is the relevant, live debate: not this side-trail.]
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I agree that most Catholics and Protestants don’t understand the proper definition of sola Scriptura.
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It’s not much of use if a Catholic reads your book and doesn’t fully understand what you are arguing.
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[I’m known for being very clear in my explanations to the common man.]
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As I said, discussion is not on sola Scriptura here; we were trying to end a misconception and that’s the sole reason we agreed to show to Catholics what an apologist will say to them regarding both positions (or more than the two). No need to bait me into asola Scriptura argument, especially because the Brazilians are not going to pick up a fight against me again.
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[Challenging someone to exhibit the courage of their convictions is not“baiting.” It’s the thinking process for those who want to properly think through issues and examine both sides of debated matters, as opposed to being isolated in bubbles and echo chambers. I have no idea what is in the minds and hearts of Brazilian Catholics that you know. I suspect that you are exaggerating their fear of your intellectual prowess. But I am not the least bit scared of you: especially if we debate sola Scriptura. I have no idea who you are. But you seem to be a rather vocal and overconfident “big shot” among Brazilian Protestants (now living in good ol’ Protestant-dominated America).
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I’m here waiting to see if you are willing to do that debate, and few things would give me more pleasure (since Protestants are so ultra-reluctant to take up this challenge). I’ve debated many people (many times) far more knowledgeable and experienced than you think you are. But if we do this, you’ll have to try to demonstrate the actual nature and definition of sola Scriptura from Scripture alone. You won’t be allowed to go down rabbit trials and obfuscate and desperately try to change the subject. No one ever gets away with playing those games with me]
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I don’t know what the people here think in all particulars. It didn’t translate very well into English. I may [very well] disagree with some who believe I sided with them, in some specifics. I was asked to give my opinion as a professional apologist and I did. Jimmy Akin is one of the best Catholic apologists today. If you don’t accept his word for what our Church teaches, you won’t accept any Catholic’s, and will keep pretending that you know our doctrine better than we do ourselves. This is standard anti-Catholic Protestant polemicist method. It doesn’t fly.
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I mentioned “material sufficiency” exactly once in my book (I did a search last night). If I recall correctly, it wasn’t even one of the 100 arguments. But I may have forgotten. But I do mention it in several of my articles, such as where I prove that Church Father X did not believe in sola Scriptura. Here is a search result for “material sufficiency” in my writings. There are quite a few mentions, but I think most are just passing references.
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I read them in English. The problem is that I can actually understand what you were intending to say: you promoted Material Sufficiency and ignored Two Source Theory. But a common Catholic, who often have a bad basis on their own theology, will try to find the Second Theory in your book because they aren’t aware they are opposite. I mean, people here doesn’t even realized that when you dismissed the Two Source Theory as an outdated 16th century thing (Cathen would disagree badly), it’s because you don’t support Two Source Theory. That’s the point: have a clear position on the theories as opposed theories. If you don’t answer that, they will keep thinking they aren’t.
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The issue is that many people are thinking that you supported Two Source Theory while saying you support one source Theory. And without a clear admission on the contrary they will keep thinking you do that.
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[Once again, they oppose each other. DUH! And once again, it’s a rabbit trail and side issue, that anti-Catholics cynically utilize in order to avoid what the bottom-line issues are. The most fully developed Catholic views regarding tradition and revelation are found in Vatican II and popes after that, not in Trent.]
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How long do you think asola Scriptura discussion with Armstrong takes? 5 minutes?
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[Yeah, it would take that long if you got honest with yourself and admitted that the false tradition is never taught in Holy Scripture anywhere. Then you could concede and return to the Catholic faith. But if you want to pretend that it does appear in Scripture it could go on for a very long time, because I won’t run (like my Protestant opponents on this issue always have for 31 years now), unless it descends to merely personal insults, which I have no time for.]
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He did it [bring up sola Scriptura] precisely so he doesn’t have to disauthorize the people here who defend what he clearly doesn’t defend.
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[That’s a scurrilous lie. You can’t read my heart and know my motivations. I brought up sola Scriptura because I truly, sincerely believe that it’s the bottom-line issue to be discussed regarding authority (it’s not like that is a controversial position). And I think this “one vs. two” debate is a side-track and a way to avoid the difficulty of finding sola Scriptura anywhere in Holy Scripture. I can say this based on my long personal experience of having tried to debate the issue with Protestants for over 25 years and watching them always try to change the subject.]
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Nonsense. I clearly said in one of my last comments, that it may be that I don’t totally agree on some things with some of the people who feel they are on my side in this discussion. I didn’t come here just to agree with existing friends. I came to present what I believe to be the teaching of the Church. This is what Catholic apologists do. That’s what you specifically asked me. Now you say I didn’t answer. That’s one of the oldest tricks in the book, too. When one disagrees with an answer, just claim that the other never answered . . .
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[Pedro kept stating over and over that I didn’t answer his question specifically about whether the one-and two-source theory of tradition and revelation are “different” from each other. Of course they are different. What is this, kindergarten? I kept saying that I did answer by providing Jimmy Akin’s article, which presupposes throughout that the two theories are different and both fully allowed within Catholicism. He stated things like, “According to one [two-source] Catholic view, . . .”, “According to this theory, . . . We might call it the ‘two modes’ view as opposed to the ‘two source’ view.” He obviously is assuming they are different theories that compete with each other (two-source vs. two-mode). Therefore, I did answer his question by means of giving him Jimmy’s article, in agreement. But I also pretty much answered by saying at the time: “Catholics are free to believe either.”
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In any event, Catholics being allowed to disagree on the precise relationship of Scripture and tradition is not broadly different from Protestants disagreeing with each other on things like baptism, Church government, and the Eucharist. But it is different in that we allow difference mainly on the most complicated issues of theology, like this one and predestination,. whereas Protestant theology is relativistic and allows differences on very major issues like baptism  and the Eucharist. Remember, the early Lutherans and Calvinists both executed Anabaptists for believing in adult believer’s baptism. Luther’s successor Melanchthon advocated the death penalty for disbelief in the Real Presence in the Eucharist, then later stopped believing in it, himself. Needless to say he wasn’t executed . . .
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There is no self-contradiction in our doing this. It’s simply an acknowledgment that complicated issues need not be defined; that allowable differences can exist and need not be acrimonious. We don’t form new denominations over such honest disagreements, as Protestants habitually do, because we believe there is one Church and ultimately one truth: not many hundreds of versions of each where ecclesiological chaos and doctrinal anarchy and relativism — with massive necessary contradictions and falsehood — rule the day.]
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Summary: Brazilian former Catholic and anti-Catholic Protestant Pedro França Gaião brought up the issue of material sufficiency of Scripture & theories on tradition.

April 28, 2022

Gavin Ortlund is an author, speaker, and apologist for the Christian faith, who serves as the senior pastor of First Baptist Church of Ojai in Ojai, California. Gavin has a Ph.D. from Fuller Theological Seminary in historical theology, and an M.Div from Covenant Theological Seminary. He is the author of seven books as well as numerous academic and popular articles. For a list of publications, see his CV. He runs the YouTube channel Truth Unites, which seeks to provide an irenic voice on theology, apologetics, and the Christian life.

I greatly admire and appreciate what Gavin describes as his “irenic” (or what I often call an “ecumenical”) methodology, and viewpoint. It’s extremely refreshing to hear in this age which is so hyper-polarized. He is an exemplary Christian role model of this open-minded, charitable approach. We all learn and “win” when good, constructive dialogue takes place. It’s never a “loss” to arrive at more truth or to recognize one’s own error.

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This is a response to Gavin’s video, “Did Augustine Affirm Sola Scriptura?” (11-8-21). His words will be in blue and I will provide minute markers with his comments. St. Augustine’s words will be in green. I know that several Catholics have responded to this video in other videos and that Gavin has in turn responded to “critics” (11-14-21) and “Lofton and Little” (11-26-21). I haven’t viewed any of these other videos, so I don’t know how they made their cases, and my answers are completely my own.

I’m “late to the game” in replying to videos, since I am solely a writer (apart from some 25 radio interviews). I’ll take a look (in another reply) at Gavin’s replies to others after I am done with my own critique, to see if they have any bearing on my arguments, so that I will have then responded to all the arguments he brings to the table.

I can draw from the abundance of resources on the topic that have already been compiled as part of the book I edited in 2012: The Quotable Augustine: Distinctively Catholic Elements in His Theology. I think that will likely make my citation of St. Augustine a little more extensive than other Catholics who have responded. The hardest, most time-consuming work’s been done and I don’t have to go searching for relevant citations now.

Let’s revisit, as a preliminary, Gavin’s definition of sola Scriptura, from his video, “Sola Scriptura DEFENDED” (12-15-20), so that we are clear about what we are debating:

Sola Scriptura has always been maintained as the view that the Bible is the only infallible rule for theology. . . . There’s a big difference in saying that the Bible is the only source for theology, and  saying the Bible is the only infallible source for theology. . . . The Scripture is is the final court of appeal: the norming norm that norms all other norms but is not normed itself. [between 7:11 and 9:35, with my own bolding, to highlight his central point]

If the Bible is regarded as the only infallible rule, source, or norm for theology, and the final court of appeal, then it inexorably follows from logic that nothing else can function as that. Thus, if a Church father is said to espouse sola Scriptura, by definition, he cannot simultaneously believe in instances of infallibility or what might be called “binding, sublime authority” deriving from the Church, sacred tradition, ecumenical councils, individual bishops, the papacy, or apostolic succession. Gavin expresses this “negative” claim of sola Scriptura by saying, “there’s nothing infallible in tradition” [3:07-3:11]. Moreover, a Church father might be very explicit about Scriptural authority and virtually claim what Gavin has: all except for the exclusivist word “only”. He could state that Scripture is an infallible rule, source, standard, or norm for theology, and even the final court of appeal, and that it is inspired and God’s revelation.

Catholics agree with all of that (no Catholic denies that Scripture is uniquely inspired revelation), and so none of it is proof of an advocacy of sola Scriptura as the rule of faith (in the Protestant understanding), unless the same father expresses it in a way that excludes the infallible authority of the Church, sacred tradition, ecumenical councils, individual bishops, the papacy, or apostolic succession. If a father affirms that any of those non-scriptural things are infallible, then he doesn’t believe in sola Scriptura: period; full stop. He believes in the Catholic “three-legged stool” rule of faith. These are the factors that Protestant apologists almost always neglect to consider in their analyses of the Church fathers and what they believed about the rule of faith.

The previous two paragraphs are key and absolutely crucial for the reader to understand my methodology below. Anyone who is unclear as to my meaning should read them again. All I’m doing is accepting the common definition of sola Scriptura and noting what necessarily follows from it, which is perfectly proper and on-point. I don’t know how many other Catholics and/or Orthodox apologists have used this particular approach to this topic (surely some, if not most), but I have for at least twenty years now. Some of the others may have even derived it from my past writings.

I’m gonna argue that Augustine is very resonant with the idea of sola Scriptura. . . . Augustine couldn’t have been clearer in advocating principles that are basically synonymous with what we call sola Scriptura. [0:03-1:09]

He says he will produce three passages in order to prove his contentions, and stresses that he has not taken anything out of context. He again defines sola Scriptura:

Sola Scriptura is the claim that the Scriptures are the only infallible rule for Christian faith and practice. . . . There is a place for tradition. Creeds and councils can even be binding and authoritative, but all that comes subsequent to the Scripture is reformable in light of Scripture. So there’s nothing infallible in tradition. That is the point of contrast. [2:41-3:12; my bolding; italicized emphases are his own]

Gavin gently complains that with regard to the matter of sola Scriptura, Protestants are routinely caricatured, set up as a straw man”. I agree. I do my best to represent their views with minute accuracy. The definition he presents for sola Scriptura is one I have agreed with for over thirty years, and indeed, was the one I had as an evangelical Protestant and already an apologist (and passionate supporter of the principle at that time).

So I have not misrepresented Protestantism on this score. I know the view from my own experiences as a Protestant apologist and in the course of debating it for 26 years online. But I recognize that too many Catholics (including credentialed apologists) have done that, and that it’s wrong and should be corrected, with retractions and apologies where necessary. We mustn’t misrepresent anyone’s views. That is bearing false witness, and if we know better, it’s dishonest.

What people do is they define sola Scriptura based upon its street-level practice rather than based upon its official expressions. [3:41-3:51]

This is exactly right and a very important point. I had precisely this dispute a few years ago with a fellow Catholic apologist, whom I contended was doing this very thing. I agreed with this faulty tendency in a broader sense in my first reply to Gavin yesterday:

The massive ignorance of the populace in all Christian communions is the reason why we can — in doing apologetics and debates — only compare the “books” of one view with the books (confessions, creeds, catechisms) of another. We can always find bad examples on all sides, but we can’t base any sort of argument on that. We have to know and consult the “official teachings” of any given group.

He made a parallel of looking at examples of some Catholics worshiping Mary and concluding that official Catholic teaching is that Mary should or can be worshiped (which he agreed was not Catholic teaching). He conceded that sola Scriptura is “very routinely practiced poorly or misunderstood by Protestants themselves, but that doesn’t mean we’re not caricaturing when we stray from what the official Protestant teaching is about this.” Again, I couldn’t agree more. Kudos to Gavin for clearly articulating this common error that occurs on all sides, in analyzing other views. It’s a matter of basic fairness, charity, and honesty of presentation.

He then cites Augustine, On Baptism, Against the Donatists, Book II, chapter 3, section 4:

But who can fail to be aware that the sacred canon of Scripture, both of the Old and New Testament, is confined within its own limits, and that it stands so absolutely in a superior position to all later letters of the bishops, that about it we can hold no manner of doubt or disputation whether what is confessedly contained in it is right and true; but that all the letters of bishops which have been written, or are being written, since the closing of the canon, are liable to be refuted if there be anything contained in them which strays from the truth, either by the discourse of some one who happens to be wiser in the matter than themselves, or by the weightier authority and more learned experience of other bishops, by the authority of Councils; and further, that the Councils themselves, which are held in the several districts and provinces, must yield, beyond all possibility of doubt, to the authority of plenary Councils which are formed for the whole Christian world; and that even of the plenary Councils, the earlier are often corrected by those which follow them, when, by some actual experiment, things are brought to light which were before concealed, and that is known which previously lay hid, and this without any whirlwind of sacrilegious pride, . . . 

Respectfully, I don’t think this proves what Gavin thinks it proves at all. The first part is merely expressing the truism that everything in Scripture is true, since it is inspired revelation, and that this can’t be said about any other writing. Every observant traditional Christian agrees, so there is no dispute on that. But it’s beside the point of sola Scriptura, which is not about the higher level of inspiration, but about infallibility. Theoretically (and this is the relevant point of contention), non-scriptural entities may possibly be infallible, too, while not inspired.

Protestants say this isn’t the case; Catholics and Orthodox claim that it is. And that’s the dispute. The fact that anything is wrong if it is contrary to Holy Scripture is something we all agree with. It’s perfectly consistent with the Catholic rule of faith, which holds that all true doctrines are and must be in harmony with Scripture. But this view is itself not sola Scriptura and so, has no bearing on that discussion.

The latter half of the quotation actually — I humbly submit — strongly supports the Catholic view and refutes sola Scriptura, because he’s saying that if something is wrong in “letters” by bishops, it can be corrected not only by Scripture, but also “by the weightier authority and more learned experience of other bishops, by the authority of Councils.” Local councils “must yield, beyond all possibility of doubt, to the authority of plenary Councils which are formed for the whole Christian world.”

That’s Catholic authority, folks, not Protestant: which would say that Scripture is the sole infallible entity that corrects theological errors. Councils might rightly do so (if they are in line with Scripture), so says Protestantism, but the Protestant denies that they are infallible, so they could always be wrong, too, in the final analysis.

Sometimes later councils correct earlier ones when doctrines or aspects of them “previously lay hid.” This is St. Augustine asserting development of doctrine: which Protestants sometimes claim was invented out of whole cloth in the 19th century for the purpose of special pleading and rationalizing Church history, by St. John Henry Cardinal Newman. But this is not true at all, as I have massively documented. St. Vincent of Lerins, St. Augustine, St. Thomas Aquinas, and many others wrote about development long before Cardinal Newman ever did.

Conclusion: nothing in the above citation proves that Augustine held to sola Scriptura. To the contrary, I think it pretty much proves that he didn’t. Gavin notes that Augustine thought ecumenical councils could possibly err. But again, this is not controversial. No Catholic thinker or scholar denies that this can take place, not just in theory but in fact.

The issue is not that councils never err, or are never corrected by future councils, but rather, whether they are ever (i.e., sometimes) infallible under certain conditions. We don’t hold that all utterances of all ecumenical councils are infallible. The levels of authority is a very complex, nuanced aspect of Catholic ecclesiology, that I have written about. This being the case, what St. Augustine noted is a ho-hum for Catholics and no refutation of our view; nor is it proof that he believed in sola Scriptura.

Gavin then cites as his second example from St. Augustine, Reply to Faustus (Book XI, 5):

As regards our writings, which are not a rule of faith or practice, but only a help to edification, we may suppose that they contain some things falling short of the truth in obscure and recondite matters, and that these mistakes may or may not be corrected in subsequent treatises. For we are of those of whom the apostle says: “And if you be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.” [Philippians 3:15] Such writings are read with the right of judgment, and without any obligation to believe. In order to leave room for such profitable discussions of difficult questions, there is a distinct boundary line separating all productions subsequent to apostolic times from the authoritative canonical books of the Old and New Testaments.

Gavin notes that Augustine stated that there can be errors in non-biblical writings (of course!), but that there is no errors in the Bible. I totally agree, which is why I have sent much of the last year refuting alleged biblical “contradictions” brought up by atheists, and hope to make a future book out of those replies. Again, Gavin neglects to see that infallibility of tradition or Church or ecumenical councils obtains only in carefully specified conditions, and is not applicable without such limitations or qualifications. This understood, Augustine’s statement is a non-controversial truism, and again not relevant to the dispute about sola Scriptura‘s truth or falsity.

Moreover, the meaning of the above also hinges upon what Augustine means by “our writings.” To whom is he referring? As best I can make out, he seems to be referring to bishops like himself, or perhaps clerics in general. But he may simply mean all non-biblical writings. Catholics don’t hold that individual bishops or Church fathers or saints possess infallibility: up to and including the most eminent Doctors of the Church, like St. Thomas Aquinas. Augustine may simply be expressing the same sentiment. We hold only that bishops in concert in an ecumenical council — as accepted by the pope — can be infallible under certain specified conditions, and that popes can unilaterally do so under very precise particular conditions and circumstances.

So again, the proper question is whether councils and tradition or popes can ever be infallible at any time. Gavin has denied that this could be the case, as to tradition (“there’s nothing infallible in tradition”), and surely he would make the same negative assertion about any other non-biblical authority. Protestants are also under an obligation to understand how Catholic authority and the Catholic rule of faith operate; just as we must not misrepresent their views as to the rule of faith.

His third example is Augustine’s Letter 82 to Jerome (from 405), chapter 1, section 3.

I have learned to yield this respect and honour only to the canonical books of Scripture: of these alone do I most firmly believe that the authors were completely free from error. And if in these writings I am perplexed by anything which appears to me opposed to truth, I do not hesitate to suppose that either the manuscript is faulty, or the translator has not caught the meaning of what was said, or I myself have failed to understand it. As to all other writings, in reading them, however great the superiority of the authors to myself in sanctity and learning, I do not accept their teaching as true on the mere ground of the opinion being held by them; but only because they have succeeded in convincing my judgment of its truth either by means of these canonical writings themselves, or by arguments addressed to my reason.

This is simply a variation of the argument Augustine made in the other two citations: only Scripture is completely free from error; always infallible. Nothing else is. And again, I say, Catholics agree. Nothing else is inspired or always infallible, but some things are sometimes infallible: contrary to Gavin’s view and sola Scriptura. (and I will show at length that Augustine believes that). What Augustine says right after this portion shows that what he means is in complete accord with the Catholic view:

I believe, my brother, that this is your own opinion as well as mine. I do not need to say that I do not suppose you to wish your books to be read like those of prophets or of apostles, concerning which it would be wrong to doubt that they are free from error. Far be such arrogance from that humble piety and just estimate of yourself which I know you to have, and without which assuredly you would not have said, Would that I could receive your embrace, and that by converse we might aid each other in learning!

Exactly! Neither Augustine, nor Jerome, great as they were, would ever claim that their writings were on the error-free level of “those of prophets or of apostles.” And that is Catholic teaching. We agree that their writings are not of that nature and that only bishops in an ecumenical council, in agreement with the pope, and under certain conditions, can claim infallibility as a collective, and that only a pope can do so by himself, at times (not all the time!). But again, this doesn’t touch upon the truth or falsity of sola Scriptura at all.

But note something else interesting here, that suggests Augustine does (at least possibly) in this larger passage grant infallibility to non-biblical persons. Prophets and apostles wrote a lot of Scripture, and so partook of its gift of inspiration and infallibility from God. But not all utterances of all prophets and apostles is contained in Scripture. The question then becomes, for example: “if someone heard a talk from Paul one night [none of which was recorded in the Bible] would it be an infallible talk?”

I would say that at least some of it would or could be. Augustine simply noted that prophets and apostles were “free from error.” He may have simply meant “biblical writings.” I don’t know. But I think my speculation is permissible and possible as an interpretation. We know that Augustine accepted extra-biblical traditions (e.g., infant baptism) that were passed down through apostolic succession.

“Prophets” are also a New Testament office that the Apostle Paul seems to intend were to continue in perpetuity in the Church. I commented on this at length in a reply to the late Dr. Greg Bahnsen. He had asked:

Now when contemporary Roman Catholic apologists look at II Thessalonians 2:15 and say, “We’re bound to follow the traditions, oral as well as written,” my response to that is not only are oral and written two different ways of saying the same thing; but my response to that is simply, I’m under obligation to listen to the oral teaching of the Apostles; you’re absolutely right, and they’re not around any more! And you know, catch up with what’s happening in the Church, friend — we don’t have Apostles today! Where do you get the idea — even on your misreading of this verse — where do you get the idea that the authority of the Apostles in oral instruction has passed on to other people?
And so I replied:
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The Bible actually teaches that the apostles didn’t cease. But Catholics interpret this as teaching that they continue in the person of the bishops (Acts 1:16-26). Paul shows no sense of the cessation of apostles in these passages:
1 Corinthians 12:28-29 (RSV) And God has appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, then healers, helpers, administrators, speakers in various kinds of tongues. [29] Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles?
Ephesians 4:11-12 And his gifts were that some should be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers, [12] to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ,
Note how “prophets” are also included in both passages, alongside “apostles” and in the same list with categories like teachers, administrators, tongues-speakers, helpers, evangelists, and pastors. If all those offices haven’t ceased, why would we think the office of apostles would? The New Testament continues to refer to existing prophets:
Acts 11:27-30 Now in these days prophets came down from Jerusalem to Antioch. [28] And one of them named Ag’abus stood up and foretold by the Spirit that there would be a great famine over all the world; and this took place in the days of Claudius. [29] And the disciples determined, every one according to his ability, to send relief to the brethren who lived in Judea; [30] and they did so, sending it to the elders by the hand of Barnabas and Saul.
Acts 21:10-11 While we were staying for some days, a prophet named Ag’abus came down from Judea. [11] And coming to us he took Paul’s girdle and bound his own feet and hands, and said, “Thus says the Holy Spirit, `So shall the Jews at Jerusalem bind the man who owns this girdle and deliver him into the hands of the Gentiles.'”
The authority of this prophet Agabus (backed up by “the Spirit”) was so acknowledged, that (in Acts 11) “the disciples” accepted it, as did Paul and Barnabas: through whom relief was sent, following the prophet’s prediction of famine. This was not Holy Scripture. It’s an oral proclamation from a prophet, led by the Holy Spirit, which was accepted and acted upon. And this is after the Church had begun at Pentecost. He then prophesied to St. Paul himself, saying, “Thus says the Holy Spirit” and Paul fully accepts it. This is, again, non-biblical and non-apostolic (and oral, not written) infallibility: utterly contrary to sola Scriptura.
Acts 13:1 Now in the church at Antioch there were prophets and teachers, Barnabas, Simeon who was called Niger, Lucius of Cyre’ne, Man’a-en a member of the court of Herod the tetrarch, and Saul.
Acts 15:32 And Judas and Silas, who were themselves prophets, exhorted the brethren with many words and strengthened them. (cf. Lk 2:36)
Paul matter-of-factly refers to the continuing existence of “prophetic powers” (1 Cor 13:2), and even “revelation” in the following passage (and related ones noted at the end), which has frequent reference to prophets, prophecies, and prophesying:
1 Corinthians 14:26, 29-32, 37, 39 What then, brethren? When you come together, each one has a hymn, a lesson, a revelation, a tongue, or an interpretation. Let all things be done for edification. . . . [29] Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others weigh what is said. [30] If a revelation is made to another sitting by, let the first be silent. [31] For you can all prophesy one by one, so that all may learn and all be encouraged; [32] and the spirits of prophets are subject to prophets. . . . [37] If any one thinks that he is a prophet, or spiritual, he should acknowledge that what I am writing to you is a command of the Lord. . . . [39] So, my brethren, earnestly desire to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues; (cf. 14:1, 3-5, 24; 1 Thess 5:20)
And there are several others as well:
Ephesians 3:4-5 When you read this you can perceive my insight into the mystery of Christ, [5] which was not made known to the sons of men in other generations as it has now been revealed to his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
1 Timothy 1:18 This charge I commit to you, Timothy, my son, in accordance with the prophetic utterances which pointed to you, that inspired by them you may wage the good warfare,
1 Timothy 4:14 Do not neglect the gift you have, which was given you by prophetic utterance when the council of elders laid their hands upon you.
Revelation 11:3, 6, 10 And I will grant my two witnesses power to prophesy for one thousand two hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth.” . . . [6] They have power to shut the sky, that no rain may fall during the days of their prophesying, and they have power over the waters to turn them into blood, and to smite the earth with every plague, as often as they desire. . . . [10] . . . these two prophets had been a torment to those who dwell on the earth. (cf. 10:11)
Acts 19:6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Spirit came on them; and they spoke with tongues and prophesied.
Acts 21:9 And he had four unmarried daughters, who prophesied.
1 Corinthians 11:4-5 Any man who prays or prophesies with his head covered dishonors his head, [5] but any woman who prays or prophesies with her head unveiled dishonors her head — it is the same as if her head were shaven.
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That’s a lot of profound non-apostolic, compelling, infallible authority to completely overlook in Holy Scripture, isn’t it? And by an educated Bible scholar at that . . .
Gavin also cites St. John Chrysostom later in the video. Rather than address that in this context (I have written about his views on this, three times [one / two / three]), I’ll direct readers to another statement of his on the rule of faith:
“So then, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye were taught, whether by word, or by Epistle of ours.”Hence it is manifest, that they did not deliver all things by Epistle, but many things also unwritten, and in like manner both the one and the other are worthy of credit. Therefore let us think the tradition of the Church also worthy of credit. It is a tradition, seek no farther. (On Second Thessalonians, Homily IV)
This concludes my response to Gavin’s three arguments for why he thinks that Augustine held to sola Scriptura. I have shown why I don’t agree. Now I will provide citations from St. Augustine that suggest his belief in the infallibility (at times!) of other things besides Holy Scripture. The burden on the Protestant who cares to pursue the dialogue this far is to variously explain the following quotations, in the way I did with the three Gavin presented.
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The Catholic Church

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This same is the holy Church, the one Church, the true Church, the catholic Church, fighting against all heresies: fight, it can: be fought down, it cannot. (Cat.Creed, 14)

For in the belly of the Church truth abides. Whosoever from this belly of the Church separated shall have been, must needs speak false things: . . . (E.Ps., 58:3 [58, 5] )

[S]ound doctrine, which alone is Catholic, . . . (C.Faust. xx, 23)

[T]hey introduced into their writings certain matters which are condemned at once by the catholic and apostolic rule of faith, and by sound doctrine. (Harm.G. i, 1, 2)

But if, on the other hand, he has fallen upon the productions of some heretic and in ignorance, it may be, has retained in his mind anything which the true faith condemns, and yet supposes it to be catholic doctrine, then we must set ourselves sedulously to teach him, bringing before him (in its rightful superiority) the authority of the Church universal, . . . (Cat.U., 8, 12)

But the right faith of the Catholic Church rejects such a fiction, and perceives it to be a devilish doctrine: . . . Let us therefore reject this kind of error, which the Holy Church has anathematized from the beginning. (L.John, 34, 2)

It is plain, the faith admits it, the Catholic Church approves it, it is truth. (Serm., 67, 6 [CXVII] )

[W]ith all earnestness, and with all prayers, and lastly with groans, or even, if so it may be, with tears, you entreat of God to set you free from the evil of error; if your heart be set on a happy life. And this will take place the more easily, if you obey with a willing mind His commands, which He has willed should be confirmed by so great authority of the Catholic Church. (Believ., 33)

But those reasons which I have here given, I have either gathered from the authority of the church, according to the tradition of our forefathers, or from the testimony of the divine Scriptures, . . . No sober person will decide against reason, no Christian against the Scriptures, no peaceable person against the church. (Trin. iv, 6, 10)

The latter class, indeed, by examining the Scriptures, and considering the authority of the whole Church as well as the form of the sacrament itself, have clearly seen that by baptism remission of sins accrues to infants . . . (Sin.I.Bapt. i, 64)

But this I say, that according to the Holy Scriptures original sin is so manifest, and that this is put away in infants by the laver of regeneration is confirmed by such antiquity and authority of the catholic faith, notorious by such a clear concurrent testimony of the Church, that what is argued by the inquiry or affirmation of anybody concerning the origin of the soul, if it is contrary to this, cannot be true. (C.Ep.Pel. iii, 26 [X] )

Sacred Tradition
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As to those other things which we hold on the authority, not of Scripture, but of tradition, and which are observed throughout the whole world, it may be understood that they are held as approved and instituted either by the apostles themselves, or by plenary Councils, whose authority in the Church is most useful, e.g. the annual commemoration, by special solemnities, of the Lord’s passion, resurrection, and ascension, and of the descent of the Holy Spirit from heaven, and whatever else is in like manner observed by the whole Church wherever it has been established. (Ep. 54 [1, 1]: to Januarius [400] )

[H]e cannot quote a decisive passage on the subject from the Book of God; nor can he prove his opinion to be right by the unanimous voice of the universal Church . . . (Ep. 54 [4, 5]: to Januarius [400] )

[T]he question which you propose is not decided either by Scripture or by universal practice. (Ep. 54 [5, 6]: to Januarius [400] )

. . . moved, not indeed by the authority of any plenary or even regionary Council, but by a mere epistolary correspondence, to think that they ought to adopt a custom which had no sanction from the ancient custom of the Church, and which was expressly forbidden by the most unanimous resolution of the Catholic world . . . (Bapt., iii, 2, 2)

And this is the firm tradition of the universal Church, in respect of the baptism of infants . . . (Bapt., iv, 23, 31)

[W]hat is held by the whole Church, . . . as a matter of invariable custom, is rightly held to have been handed down by authority, . . . (Bapt., iv, 24, 32)

Whence, however, was this derived, but from that primitive, as I suppose, and apostolic tradition, by which the Churches of Christ maintain it to be an inherent principle, that without baptism and partaking of the supper of the Lord it is impossible for any man to attain either to the kingdom of God or to salvation and everlasting life? So much also does Scripture testify, according to the words which we already quoted. (Sin.I.Bapt. i, 34 [XXIV] )

The very sacraments indeed of the Church, which she administers with due ceremony, according to the authority of very ancient tradition . . . (Grace.Orig. ii, 45)

And this custom, coming, I suppose, from tradition (like many other things which are held to have been handed down under their actual sanction, because they are preserved throughout the whole Church, though they are not found either in their letters, or in the Councils of their successors), . . . (Bapt., ii, 7, 12)

For if none have baptism who entertain false views about God, it has been proved sufficiently, in my opinion, that this may happen even within the Church. “The apostles,” indeed, “gave no injunctions on the point;” but the custom, which is opposed to Cyprian, may be supposed to have had its origin in apostolic tradition, just as there are many things which are observed by the whole Church, and therefore are fairly held to have been enjoined by the apostles, which yet are not mentioned in their writings. (Bapt., v, 23, 31)

Ecumenical Councils
*
Nor should we ourselves venture to assert anything of the kind, were we not supported by the unanimous authority of the whole Church, to which he himself [St. Cyprian] would unquestionably have yielded, if at that time the truth of this question [rebaptism] had been placed beyond dispute by the investigation and decree of a plenary Council. (Bapt., ii, 4, 5)

*

[S]ubsequently that ancient custom was confirmed by the authority of a plenary Council . . . (Bapt., iv, 5, 8)

. . . sufficiently manifest to the pastors of the Catholic Church dispersed over the whole world, through whom the original custom was afterwards confirmed by the authority of a plenary Council . . . (Bapt., vi, 1, 1)

My opinion therefore is, that wherever it is possible, all those things should be abolished without hesitation, which neither have warrant in Holy Scripture, nor are found to have been appointed by councils of bishops, nor are confirmed by the practice of the universal Church, . . . (Ep. 55 [19, 35]: to Januarius [400] )

And let any one, who is led by the past custom of the Church, and by the subsequent authority of a plenary Council, and by so many powerful proofs from holy Scripture, and by much evidence from Cyprian himself, and by the clear reasoning of truth, to understand that the baptism of Christ, consecrated in the words of the gospel, cannot be perverted by the error of any man on earth . . . (Bapt., v, 4, 4)

The Papacy / Primacy of Peter and the Roman See

For if the lineal succession of bishops is to be taken into account, with how much more certainty and benefit to the Church do we reckon back till we reach Peter himself, to whom, as bearing in a figure the whole Church, the Lord said: “Upon this rock will I build my Church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it!” [Matthew 16:18] The successor of Peter was Linus, and his successors in unbroken continuity were these:— Clement, Anacletus, Evaristus, Alexander, Sixtus, Telesphorus, Iginus, Anicetus, Pius, Soter, Eleutherius, Victor, Zephirinus, Calixtus, Urbanus, Pontianus, Antherus, Fabianus, Cornelius, Lucius, Stephanus, Xystus, Dionysius, Felix, Eutychianus, Gaius, Marcellinus, Marcellus, Eusebius, Miltiades, Sylvester, Marcus, Julius, Liberius, Damasus, and Siricius, whose successor is the present Bishop Anastasius. In this order of succession no Donatist bishop is found. (Ep. 53 [1, 2]: from Augustine, Fortunatus, and Alypius to Generosus [400] )

Peter is the Church Herself. (E.Ps., 94:18 [94, 17] )

But that after this sin Peter should become a pastor of the Church was no more improper than that Moses, after smiting the Egyptian, should become the leader of the congregation. (C.Faust. xxii, 70)

I suppose that there is no slight to Cyprian in comparing him with Peter in respect to his crown of martyrdom; rather I ought to be afraid lest I am showing disrespect towards Peter. For who can be ignorant that the primacy of his apostleship is to be preferred to any episcopate whatever? (Bapt., ii, 1, 2)

. . . the Roman Church, in which the supremacy of an apostolic chair [apostolicae cathedrae principatus] has always flourished . . . (Ep. 43 [3, 7]: to Glorius, Eleusius, the Two Felixes, and Grammaticus [397] )

For already have two councils on this question been sent to the Apostolic see; and rescripts also have come from thence. The question has been brought to an issue; would that their error may sometime be brought to an issue too! (Serm., 81, 10 [CXXXI] )

I desire with the Lord’s help to use the necessary measures in our Council, and, if it be necessary, to write to the Apostolic See; that, by a unanimous authoritative decision of all, we may have the course which ought to be followed in these cases determined and established. (Ep. 250: to Classicianus [unknown date] )

Apostolic Succession
*

[T]hey admit the necessity of baptizing infants—finding themselves unable to contravene that authority of the universal Church, which has been unquestionably handed down by the Lord and His apostles . . . (Sin.I.Bapt. i, 39 [XXVI] )

We, namely, the catholic faith, coming from the doctrine of the apostles planted in us, received by a line of succession, to be transmitted sound to posterity—the catholic faith, I say, has, between both those parties, that is, between both errors, held the truth. (L.John, 37, 6)

Now who is there that would not be afraid, from the voice of God through the Apostles, the voice of God through the Scriptures, through His clouds? (E.Ps., 104:7 [104, 7] )

The authority of our books, which is confirmed by the agreement of so many nations, supported by a succession of apostles, bishops, and councils, is against you. (C.Faust. xiii, 5)

[I]f you acknowledge the supreme authority of Scripture, you should recognise that authority which from the time of Christ Himself, through the ministry of His apostles, and through a regular succession of bishops in the seats of the apostles, has been preserved to our own day throughout the whole world, with a reputation known to all. There the Old Testament too has its difficulties solved, and its predictions fulfilled. (C.Faust. xxxiii, 9)

[T]his which we hold is the true and truly Christian and catholic faith, as it was delivered of old by the Holy Scriptures, and so retained and kept by our fathers and even to this time, in which these heretics have attempted to destroy it, and as it will hereafter by God’s good will be retained and kept. (C.Ep.Pel. iv, 32 [XII] )

Abbreviations and Links and Dates

400 / 401 Bapt. On Baptism, Against the Donatists (De baptismo) [tr. J. R. King; rev. Chester D. Hartranft; NPNF 1-4]

391 Believ. On the Usefulness of Believing (De utilitate credendi) [tr. C. L. Cornish; NPNF 1-3]

420 C.Ep.Pel. Against Two Letters of the Pelagians (Contra duas epistulas Pelagianorum) [tr. Peter Holmes and Robert E. Wallis, rev. Benjamin B. Warfield; NPNF 1-5]

397-398 C.Faust. Against Faustus the Manichee (Contra Faustum Manichaeum) [tr. Richard Stothert; NPNF 1-4]

393 Cat.Creed Sermon to Catechumens on the Creed [tr. by H. Browne; NPNF 1-3]

400 Cat.U. On Catechizing the Uninstructed (De catechizandis rudibus) [tr. S. D. F. Salmond; NPNF 1-3]

396-420 E.Ps. Explanations of the Psalms (Enarrationes in Psalmos) [tr. J. E. Tweed; NPNF 1-8]

386-429 Ep. [#] Letters (Epistulae) [tr. J. G. Cunningham; NPNF 1-1]

418 Grace.Orig. On the Grace of Christ and on Original Sin (De gratia Christi et de peccato originali) [tr. Peter Holmes and Robert E. Wallis, rev. Benjamin B. Warfield; NPNF 1-5]

400 Harm.G. Harmony of the Gospels(De consensu evangelistarum) [tr. S. D. F. Salmond; NPNF 1-6]

406-430 L.John Lectures on the Gospel of John(In euangelium Ioannis tractatus) [tr. John Gibb; NPNF 1-7]

393-430 Serm. Sermonson the New Testament (Sermones) [tr. R. G. MacMullen; NPNF 1-6]

412 Sin.I.Bapt. On Merit and the Forgiveness of Sins and on Infant Baptism (De peccatorum meritis et remissione et de baptismo parvulorum) [tr. Peter Holmes and Robert E. Wallis, rev. Benjamin B. Warfield; NPNF 1-5]

399-419 Trin. On the Trinity (De trinitate) [tr. Arthur West Haddan; NPNF 1-3]

***

Gavin replied to a portion of my argument in his combox:

Dave, thanks for engaging my videos, and for the kind words. I’m reading this post now and I’ll just give a response to your interaction with the first quote.

The contrast here between Scripture and subsequent councils is not, as you say, that the former is merely inspired revelation, but that it alone is infallible. That is explicit in what he says: “that about it we can hold no manner of doubt or disputation whether what is confessedly contained in it is right and true.” He is not talking about biblical inspiration. He is talking about how you can know the bible is true, unlike everything subsequent, which can err. The Scripture is confined in its own limits in this specific sense, per Augustine’s words; not because it alone is inspired, but because it alone must be true.

That is why it is so significant that he includes the “plenary Councils which are formed for the whole Christian world” as those that can err, such that “the earlier are often corrected by those which follow them.” Every time the verb “corrected” appears in the context, it has to do with doctrinal error (e.g., in the next sentence dealing with Cyprian’s error). This is not doctrinal development; this is error needing a correction. Augustine is evidently thinking of the official declaration of the council (hence needing to be corrected by a subsequent, separate council), and Catholic teaching does hold that that is infallible, per Vatican 1. Trying to apply Augustine’s statement to something short of that happening at a council vitiates the whole point of his sentence and would then undermine his originating point at the climactic point (because then the Scripture would no longer be confined within its own limits such that about it alone do we know it’s true).

In terms of Augustine’s views on apostolic succession, tradition, etc. (regarding the quotes you provide at the end), I got into this in my response videos somewhat. The basic point would be these things are not inconsistent with sola Scriptura. E.g., believing in an authoritative council doesn’t mean believing in infallible councils. Or believing in apostolic succession is manifestly not at odds with sola Scriptura. And so forth. They don’t tell you whether the bible alone is infallible. My response to Lofton and Little especially stresses this point.

Anyway, let me know if you watch the later videos (if you have time) and have any further thoughts. Take care and thanks again!

Thanks for your reply (again very quick!).

You make your point vigorously, but I still don’t see it. It remains true that 1) only Scripture is completely error-free, and that 2) nothing else rises to that level. We all agree on that. One can quibble about whether he is referring to inspiration or infallibility, but I don’t think that changes my argument. Catholics don’t think that tradition or councils or papal encyclicals are always infallible everywhere. You seem to be assuming otherwise. If universal infallibility were what we believed about those other things, I’d agree with you, but since we don’t . . .

He’s certainly talking about doctrinal development in the final sentence. That’s what I was referring to. We know that he wrote about development elsewhere; e.g., City of God , Book XVI, ch. 2:

For while the hot restlessness of heretics stirs questions about many articles of the catholic faith, the necessity of defending them forces us both to investigate them more accurately, to understand them more clearly, and to proclaim them more earnestly; and the question mooted by an adversary becomes the occasion of instruction . . .

Likewise, Commentary on Psalm 55 (section 21; I rephrased some things and changed sentence order for syntactical improvement, due to the very awkward, almost unreadable literal translation):

[B]y heretics the Catholic Church has been vindicated, . . . For many things lay hidden in the Scriptures: and when heretics, who had been cut off, troubled the Church of God with questions, then those things which lay hidden were opened, and the will of God was understood . . . Many men that could understand and expound the Scriptures very excellently, were hidden among the people of God, and they did not declare the solution of difficult questions, until a reviler again urged them. For was the doctrine of the Trinity perfectly expounded upon before the Arians snarled at it? Was repentance perfectly treated before the opposition of the Novatians? Likewise, Baptism was not perfectly understood, before rebaptizers from the outside contradicted; nor even the very oneness of Christ . . .

Philip Schaff wrote, accordingly, about Augustine’s views:

Augustine . . . manifestly acknowledges a gradual advancement of the church doctrine, which reaches its corresponding expression from time to time through the general councils; but a progress within the truth, without positive error. (History of the Christian Church, vol. 3: Nicene and Post-Nicene Christianity, Grand Rapids, Michigan: Eerdmans, 1974 [orig. 1910], 344)

Schaff wrote elsewhere:

Within the limits of the Jewish theocracy and Catholic Christianity Augustin admits the idea of historical development or a gradual progress from a lower to higher grades of knowledge, yet always in harmony with Catholic truth. He would not allow revolutions and radical changes or different types of Christianity. “The best thinking” (says Dr. Flint, in his Philosophy of History in Europe, I. 40), “at once the most judicious and liberal, among those who are called the Christian fathers, on the subject of the progress of Christianity as an organization and system, is that of St. Augustin, as elaborated and applied by Vincent of Lerins in his ‘Commonitorium,’ where we find substantially the same conception of the development of the Church and Christian doctrine, which, within the present century, De Maistre has made celebrated in France, Mohler in Germany, and Newman in England. (Editor’s Preface to City of God, 38-volume set of the Church Fathers, December 10, 1886)

I suppose one could interpret all the quotes I compiled in that way, but I don’t find it plausible. And I don’t because it is evident (to me, anyway) that Augustine doesn’t think like a Protestant. He doesn’t “answer” the way a Protestant would. Thus, time and again, when he says an error must be corrected, he doesn’t appeal to Scripture alone, as I think you or most Protestants would, but he includes the church, universal tradition, councils, and apostolic succession. The habitual conclusion of those things proves to my satisfaction that he is indeed thinking in terms of the Catholic “three-legged stool” rule of faith. He doesn’t appear to be assuming that Scripture is the only “final court of appeal” as you put it.

If he is wrong concerning the rule of faith, it causes no harm to Catholicism. He could have been wrong, just as he was on some aspects of predestination, according to our dogma on that. But I don’t think he is wrong. I think it’s just as “clear” that he was thoroughly Catholic in this regard, as you think it couldn’t be clearer in your quotes that he thought more like a proto-Protestant.

My view of Augustine and the rule of faith is not just my own. Several reputable Protestant historians and scholars agree (and I am happy to defer to them as experts; I’m just a lay apologist): Historian Heiko Oberman notes concerning St. Augustine:

Augustine’s legacy to the middle ages on the question of Scripture and Tradition is a two-fold one. In the first place, he reflects the early Church principle of the coinherence of Scripture and Tradition. While repeatedly asserting the ultimate authority of Scripture, Augustine does not oppose this at all to the authority of the Church Catholic . . . The Church has a practical priority: her authority as expressed in the direction-giving meaning of commovere is an instrumental authority, the door that leads to the fullness of the Word itself.

But there is another aspect of Augustine’s thought . . . we find mention of an authoritative extrascriptural oral tradition. While on the one hand the Church “moves” the faithful to discover the authority of Scripture, Scripture on the other hand refers the faithful back to the authority of the Church with regard to a series of issues with which the Apostles did not deal in writing. Augustine refers here to the baptism of heretics . . . (The Harvest of Medieval Theology, Grand Rapids, Michigan: Eerdmans, revised, 1967, 370-371)

J. N. D. Kelly, the great Anglican patristic scholar, wrote:

The three letters [Epistles 175-177] relating to Pelagianism which the African church sent to Innocent I in 416, and of which Augustine was the draughtsman, suggested that he attributed to the Pope a pastoral and teaching authority extending over the whole Church, and found a basis for it in Scripture. (Early Christian Doctrines, San Francisco: Harper & Row, fifth revised edition, 1978, 419)

According to Augustine [De doct. christ. 3,2], its [Scripture’s] doubtful or ambiguous passages need to be cleared up by ‘the rule of faith’; it was, moreover, the authority of the Church alone which in his eyes [C. ep. Manich. 6: cf. De doct. christ. 2,12; c. Faust Manich, 22, 79] guaranteed its veracity.” (Ibid., 47)

Philip Schaff again:

[I]n a certain sense, as against heretics, he made the authority of Holy Scripture dependent on the authority of the catholic church, in his famous dictum against the Manichaean heretics: “I would not believe the gospel, did not the authority of the catholic church compel me.” . . . The Protestant church makes the authority of the general councils, and of all ecclesiastical tradition, depend on the degree of its conformity to the Holy Scriptures; while the Greek and Roman churches make Scripture and tradition coordinate. (History of the Christian Church, vol. 3: Chapter V, section 66, “The Synodical System. The Ecumenical Councils,” 344-345)

He adopted Cyprian’s doctrine of the church, and completed it in the conflict with Donatism by transferring the predicates of unity, holiness, universality, exclusiveness and maternity, directly to the actual church of the time, which, with a firm episcopal organization, an unbroken succession, and the Apostles’ Creed, triumphantly withstood the eighty or the hundred opposing sects in the heretical catalogue of the day, and had its visible centre in Rome. (Schaff, ibid., Chapter X, section 180, “The Influence of Augustine upon Posterity and his Relation to Catholicism and Protestantism,” 1019-1020)

Lutheran Church historian Jaroslav Pelikan concurs with this general assessment of St. Augustine’s views:

This authority of orthodox catholic Christendom . . . was so powerful as even to validate the very authority of the Bible . . . But between the authority of the Bible and the authority of the catholic church (which was present within, but was more than, the authority of its several bishops past and present) there could not in a real sense be any contradiction. Here one could find repose in “the resting place of authority,” [Bapt. 2.8.13] not in the unknown quantity of the company of the elect, but in the institution of salvation that could claim foundation by Christ and succession from the apostles. (The Christian Tradition: A History of the Development of Doctrine: Vol.1 of 5: The Emergence of the Catholic Tradition (100-600), Chicago: Univ. of Chicago Press, 1971, 303-304)

Augustine, writing against the Donatists, had coined the formula, ‘the judgment of the whole world is reliable [securus judicat orbis terrarum].’ [Parm. 3.4.24] Catholicity was a mark both of the true church and of the true doctrine, for these were inseparable.” (Ibid., 334)

So what can I say? If I look over relevant Augustine texts, and — taken cumulatively –, they seem to point to what I recognize as the Catholic rule of faith, and not only that, I find that these great Protestant scholars (Schaff, Kelly, Oberman, and Pelikan) — who can’t be accused of a natural Catholic bias, as I could be — agree with me in their interpretation of all the data, that seems to me compelling. Their job is to summarize what Church fathers held regarding any given doctrine, and this is their judgment. It fits with what I see, and I accept it on their authority and based on a congruence with my own amateur observations and speculations.

One more thing. You wrote: “believing in apostolic succession is manifestly not at odds with sola Scriptura. And so forth. They don’t tell you whether the Bible alone is infallible.” I would say it’s so at odds with sola Scriptura that the Calvinists and most of the Lutherans and certainly the Zwinglians and more radical Anabaptists, etc. all rejected it. I don’t see Protestants today appealing to that, except for perhaps some Anglo-Catholics. It’s simply not on their radar screen. You don’t appeal to it. You act consistently with sola Scriptura: the Bible is always the final norm and appeal.

Augustine and the fathers, generally, on the other hand, don’t approach the issue that way at all. For them, the appeal to apostolic succession and the (somewhat exaggerated language of) the Vincentian canon, “what was always believed everywhere by all . . .” was conclusive in and of itself and especially a “slam dunk” against heretics with no early history at all. It was very useful because the heretics could always come up with heretical interpretations of Scripture, but they couldn’t make up a history that didn’t happen. So for the fathers, appeal to unbroken apostolic succession was usually central to their defenses of orthodoxy.

Thanks for reading all this and interacting! I plan on taking a look at your other two videos tomorrow.

Thanks for the comment Dave! A few replies:

Whether Augustine is talking about inspiration or infallibility is not a quibble. If the scripture were confined to its own limits merely in the sense that it alone is inspired, then your argument would work and that would not be at odds with the Catholic position. But he is saying that the scripture is confined to its own limits in the sense that it alone is infallible. This is the explicit claim of the passage: he locates his contrast between the scripture and subsequent councils on the grounds that former is infallible and the latter are fallible. That is, The Bible must always be true, but in contrast even the plenary councils can err. The passage says nothing about inspiration.

I am not assuming that traditions and councils and papal encyclicals always are infallible, but rather, per Vatican 1, that the official and formal deliverances of ecumenical councils are considered infallible by the Roman Catholic Church. I’ve not had this point contested before by other Catholics. Vatican II has the same understanding. Later magisterial teaching can clarify but not contradict earlier magisterial teaching.

The fact that Augustine believes in some conception of doctrinal development does not mean that the verb “corrected” does not have reference to an error here. In the context, I think it’s obvious that it does. But it sounds like we’ll just have to disagree on that, and that is OK!

I fail to see the relevance of the quotes from Oberman and Schaff and others. They’re basically saying things that are consistent with sola Scruptura, such as the fact that the authority of the church and the authority of Scripture are not at odds with one another. There is no problem for that with sola Scriptura. A real contradiction with sola Scriptura would be if Augustine maintained that the church possessed infallibility in some sense. You were very clear and charitable to define sola Scriptura accurately early on in the post so I don’t really understand this aspect of your response. It sounds like you’re reverting to the claim that sola Scriptura is somehow at odds with authoritative councils. It is not. It is only at odds with infallible councils.

I’ll leave it there for now as I’m at the park watching the kids! Forgive if my comments seem blunt or forceful, I am typing this out by my voice automation so there may be typos as well. Thanks again for the engagement.

Thanks for this reply. At this point, I truly don’t know what else to add or say. We seem to be at a total impasse. Of course, as you know, that’s often what happens, in these discussions of deeply-held beliefs, but we have done it without acrimony and perhaps we have both learned something in the conversation, so that makes it worthwhile. One thing I’ve I’ve learned — though we disagree on this — is that you are a very good debater, and I always respect that because it challenges me (a person who loves debates and challenges both). It’s my honor and privilege to interact with you.

You said somewhere that you hope that at least Catholic viewers can see how someone might take a different view on these matters. I do see that. As I’ve always said, everything goes back to premises, and at some point, people disagree on some premise that they follow. These determine what is built upon them. I think that’s largely what we have in Protestant-Catholic disputes (when examined closely).

The premises split at some point (usually the 1500s) and that in turn caused the two parties to think differently about a lot of things. They may be internally consistent and perfectly honest but arrive at different conclusions because of these different premises. And both sides sincerely, honestly “see” the same things differently: whether in Scripture or patristic quotations. I think our present dialogue shows that quite clearly.

Your other two videos will offer fresh material for me to critique, but this particular discussion seems exhausted. Let readers judge . . .

Thanks Dave. Yes, I have observed that it is very common for discussions to reach an impasse, and I agree with you that having different starting points often is a factor for that. When that happens at any rate it is always pleasant and good to be able to recognize it and remain charitable in the process, so I truly appreciate your observations and remarks, which I will continue to think on as well! Take care.

See the follow-up discussion: Augustine & Sola Scriptura, Pt. 2 (vs. Gavin Ortlund) [4-29-22]

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Summary: Baptist Gavin Ortlund provides three proofs about Augustine & sola Scriptura. I offer counter-replies & additional counter-evidence from many Augustine citations.

April 25, 2022

Rev. Dr. Jordan B. Cooper is a Lutheran pastor, adjunct professor of Systematic Theology, Executive Director of the popular Just & Sinner YouTube channel, and the President of the American Lutheran Theological Seminary (which holds to a doctrinally traditional Lutheranism, similar to the Lutheran Church – Missouri Synod). He has authored several books, as well as theological articles in a variety of publications.

*****

I will be responding to Jordan’s two-part YouTube series on sola Scriptura: “An Explanation of Sola Scriptura (3-11-19), and “A Defense of Sola Scriptura (3-12-19). When I cite his words directly, they will be in blue, and citations and descriptions of his arguments will be accompanied by the time in the video as well.

For a Lutheran, it [sola Scriptura] means something very different than what it means for an Anabaptist or someone who’s part of the churches of Christ . . . even for the Reformed, who have kind of a similar view in some ways to the Lutheran tradition, but differ in other ways as well. And we’re all kind of lumped together . . . in reality, we have very different views in terms of what is the role of tradition, and is there any role of tradition whatsoever; is tradition an authority at all? [4:16-4:56]

Granted. Many on both broad sides (Protestant, Catholic) are too often guilty of ignoring fine and crucial distinctions in terms of defining views that they disagree with, among other Christians. This topic is notorious for that. I have a very good Catholic friend and fellow Catholic apologist with whom I differed on the definition. I contended that he was caricaturing the Protestant position and essentially opposing a straw man. He replied that I was over-intellectualizing it.

No! It’s important — absolutely essential in apologetics and theology — to get definitions and particularities / fine points right and to be intellectually honest when we oppose some theological position of a fellow believer, and to be charitable to them in presenting their own views. So I totally agree with this sentiment.

Sola Scriptura . . . recognizes that there are many authorities, but Scripture is the sole infallible authority, so Scripture has preference over all other authorities we might have. [5:16-5:27]

I totally agree again. The key is saying that the Bible is the sole infallible authority. It has to be qualified in that way. The logical corollary to that is to say that sacred or apostolic tradition and the Church are not infallible, as the Bible is. Jordan goes on to note that Scripture only is inspired or God-breathed (and I would add, it’s the only public revelation as well). Of course it is. No one denies that.

Catholics maintain, on the other hand, that the Bible is not the only infallible authority or source of the rule of faith (infallibility being a distinct and lesser gift over against inspiration). The true dispute, then, is whether the Church and tradition are ever infallible, as the Bible always is. That’s where the heart of he “battle” over these competing ideas lies. We say yes; Protestants, consistently following the definition of sola Scriptura, say (and must say) no.

I’m answering as I listen, so at this point I am very curious to see what Jordan thinks is the distinctively Lutheran version of sola Scriptura. What he says about it so far is identical to the working definition I have used in my extensive critiques (including three books): drawing from the definitions of Protestant apologists Keith Mathison, James White, and Norman Geisler: that of the first two came from their books on this topic.

There is a uniqueness in terms of the role of Scripture that nothing else can have, whether it’s traditions, whether it’s councils, whether it’s the authorities in the Church. And so it’s not to say that none of those things have any authority at all, but they’re not God-breathed, in the sense that Scripture is, so they don’t have  the same status that Scripture itself has. And so Scripture is the thing that norms everything else. . . . all of those [other] things are to be submitted to Scripture. If there is a disagreement between a council and Scripture, or a Church father and Scripture, it is Scripture, ultimately, that is the higher authority, so that has the ultimate and final say. [5:34-6:18]

Inspiration is unique to Scripture, but it doesn’t follow that infallibility is also unique to Scripture: especially not if the Bible itself teaches that there are other infallible authorities, as I will show in due course. Catholics agree that Scripture is materially sufficient: all true Christian doctrines are taught in Scripture, either explicitly, implicitly, or as a deduction from clear biblical passages.

There is also development of doctrine (the great Lutheran theologian Jaroslav Pelikan wrote a lot about that), and some doctrines will be in Scripture only in a bare “kernel” or “acorn” form, but Catholics agree that there is something in Scripture about every true doctrine.

Accordingly, as a Catholic apologist specializing in “Biblical Evidence for Catholicism” (the name of my blog), I have produced biblical arguments for every Catholic doctrine that I have defended. Some evidences are much stronger than others, but I come up with something in every case.

As to councils and Church fathers, Catholics hold that (ecumenical) councils — like popes — are infallible only under certain conditions (including agreement with the pope, who “ratifies”: them). It follows that there can be non-infallible parts of them that are in error and/or are contrary to Scripture. Because of our qualifications, it doesn’t necessarily become a difficulty for the Catholic position when there is such a conflict.  We believe that what has been proclaimed as infallible from councils and popes, is and will and must be in harmony with Holy Scripture.

As for Church fathers, we don’t teach that any of them are infallible. We hold that if they have a substantial (not literally unanimous) agreement on a given doctrine, that this is a fairly failsafe indication that the doctrine is in fact true, and part of authentic apostolic tradition. But by themselves they have no such authority, and that goes for even Doctors of the Church like St. Augustine (who was wrong in some ways about predestination), and St. Thomas Aquinas, who was wrong on the Immaculate Conception: but mainly due to the primitive biology of the time.

The Lutheran and Anglican positions would be pretty much on the same page here in terms of trying to find a balance between on the one hand holding to the unique authority of Scripture that is above all others, while also holding that tradition and councils and the historic worship of the Church: those things are important and we don’t have a right to just throw them out altogether. But, recognizing that they have limitations, that they’re not God-breathed . . . [7:12-7:45]

This is my understanding, too. It’s good as far as it goes (as far as it can go in Protestantism). But I think it ultimately breaks down and becomes inconsistent and self-defeating: in terms of what flows in the real world from such ideas. The difficulties in implementing such a position derive from the relationship of the Christian individual and these supposedly non-infallible teachings of tradition and an authoritative Church. Jordan says that they are “important”: and not at all worthless; we mustn’t discard them.

So far so good. On the other hand, sola Scriptura holds that they are always non-infallible. So the Protestant has to somehow decide which teachings of them are true (in which case I would note that they are — ironically — de facto or in a practical sense “infallible”) and which are not.

The Protestant would reply (I know, from many hundreds of debates) that all that is determined by adherence to Scripture. But of course (as we all know), Protestants have fairly serious disagreements amongst themselves about what Scripture teaches on a given doctrine. Scripture always has to be properly interpreted, and therein lies the perpetual dilemma for Protestants.

One example I always bring up is that they have five different major positions on baptism (infant regenerative, adult regenerative, infant symbolic, adult symbolic, and no baptism at all). They can’t agree about what “clear and perspicuous” Scripture teaches on baptism, and there is no end in sight for this disagreement. Blessedly, Lutherans and Catholics basically agree about baptism.

Protestants broadly agree with the earlier councils, when they were dogmatically defining the Holy Trinity, the Two Natures of Christ, the divinity of the Holy Spirit, the canon of the Bible (apart from the deuterocanon), and suchlike. But the third ecumenical council of Ephesus in 431 defined Theotokos (“Mother of God”) as a dogma. Lutherans and Anglicans have no problem with that; the Reformed / Calvinists do. The perpetual virginity of Mary was defined as orthodox dogma in the same council and also the Second Council of Constantinople in 553. All of the Protestant reformers (including Calvin) agreed with that doctrine; most Protestant today do not (and they do not, I argue, because of the inroads of theological liberalism starting in the 18th century).

The seventh ecumenical council at Nicaea in 787 condemned iconoclasm (the antipathy to images in worship and the Christian life). Lutherans agree (they have no problem with, for example, crucifixes and stained glass portrayals of the Bible); Reformed and Calvinists did not at all in the beginning of their existence, and often continue to not agree today. Both sides think that the Bible supports their position (as with all the other contested issues).

Catholics say that when a council of bishops from all over the world decides something important as binding on the faithful or not binding, with the agreement of the pope, that it’s infallible, and discussion on it ends. We have a way to end the controversy, whereas Protestants do not. Their only “solution” is to split from each other and form more denominations. Jordan is very familiar with this in his own Lutheran realm. I think it’s good (from within his paradigm) that his denomination followed Lutheran tradition and split from those who don’t, but the process of splitting itself is most unfortunate, because whenever disagreements of this sort continue on among Protestants, it means that error is necessarily institutionalized and sanctioned somewhere (wherever contradictions exist).

Someone must be wrong, or both are wrong, when they contradict each other. And errors and falsehood are bad things. Protestantism can’t resolve this. Catholicism and Orthodoxy can, because we reject sola Scriptura, which brings about this institutional chaos and doctrinal relativism, because (we would say) it denies what the Bible actually teaches about the rule of faith. I could go on and on about these matters, but I have to move on.

Jordan discussed [7:43-10:20] how the Reformed conception of authority differs from the Lutheran, by noting how in Reformed confessions (like Westminster), what is stated is backed up by Scripture in the footnotes, whereas in Lutheran Confessions / Book of Concord, “it consistently cites both Scripture and the Church fathers.” Very interesting. I didn’t know that. And it’s one more reason for my existing respect for Lutheranism as the best (and most “catholic”) Protestant tradition.

I do know, however, that many Reformed apologists seek to assert that the Church fathers back up their position, and Calvin’s Institutes certainly massively cites the fathers — as Jordan did note — (Augustine being the particular favorite among them). But I take Jordan’s word that Lutherans stress patristics more than Reformed.

He goes on to argue that the different views of the value of tradition play out differently in Reformed worship and Church government. What he discusses in the final section is an “in-house” fight and not directly related to questions of the validity of sola Scriptura itself, so I need not comment on it. In that dispute, I am firmly on the Lutheran rather than Reformed side.

The definition he gives in my second citation from him above is precisely the one I have been using in my critiques, going back literally 31 years now, since I was received into the Church. That being the case, my critiques accurately apply to the Lutheran conception of sola Scriptura. I have the same understanding of the proper definition that Jordan has.

In ending my reply to the first video, I’d like to quote a wonderful and positive (downright ecumenical) statement written in 1528 by Martin Luther, that rather strikingly backs up what Jordan says about Lutheranism and tradition:

We on our part confess that there is much that is Christian and good under the papacy; indeed everything that is Christian and good is to be found there and has come to us from this source. For instance we confess that in the papal church there are the true holy Scriptures, true baptism, the true sacrament of the altar, the true keys to the forgiveness of sins, the true office of the ministry, the true catechism in the form of the Lord’s Prayer, the Ten Commandments, and the articles of the creed . . . I speak of what the pope and we have in common . . . I contend that in the papacy there is true Christianity, even the right kind of Christianity and many great and devoted saints. . . . The Christendom that now is under the papacy is truly the body of Christ and a member of it. If it is his body, then it has the true spirit, gospel, faith, baptism, sacrament, keys, the office of the ministry, prayer, holy Scripture, and everything that pertains to Christendom. So we are all still under the papacy and therefrom have received our Christian treasures. . . . We do not rave as do the rebellious spirits, so as to reject everything that is found in the papal church. For then we would cast out even Christendom from the temple of God, and all that it contained of Christ. . . . They take a severe stand against the pope, but they miss their mark and murder the more terribly the Christendom under the pope. For if they would permit baptism and the sacrament of the altar to stand as they are, Christians under the pope might yet escape with their souls and be saved, as has been the case hitherto. But now when the sacraments are taken from them, they will most likely be lost, since even Christ himself is thereby taken away. (Concerning Rebaptism, written against the Anabaptists in January 1528; translated by Conrad Bergendoff; Luther’s Works, Vol. 40, pp. 229-262 [words above from pp. 231-233], from the original German in WA [Weimar Werke], Vol. 26:144-174)

***

Now I will reply to the second video, “A Defense of Sola Scriptura (3-12-19). Here Jordan gets into a biblical defense, which for my money is the most fascinating aspect of the debate (what I solely concentrated on in my most well-known book on the topic), and the area where I always challenge my Protestant friends to back up their views, because I think that it must necessarily be based on Scripture itself in order to not be viciously self-defeating (as a mere unbiblical “tradition of men” with no particular authority, failing that grounding in Scripture). Let’s see how Jordan makes his case. I look forward to it!

Again, I will be answering as I listen to the tape, which is how I like to reply to things. As I write this, then, I haven’t yet listened to the second presentation. So far, I greatly appreciate and admire Jordan’s clear, articulate, heartfelt presentation, and look forward to interacting to many more of his videos in the future, in a friendly, respectful fashion, with a fellow Christian worker and committed disciple of Jesus. We agree on a lot; where we disagree, I’m confident that it can be done within a context of friendliness, Christian fellowship and theological interaction (out of love for theology and for God), and mutual respect.

If you’re talking to a Roman Catholic apologist, when they’re speaking about sola Scriptura, they’re always gonna raise the same statement. Over and over again, you’re gonna hear this, . . . and that is, “Scripture never teaches sola Scriptura, so you are holding Scripture as the ultimate authority; however, Scripture itself never says that it is the only authority, therefore, you’re contradicting yourself, because necessarily, you’re going outside of Scripture to say that Scripture is the only standard, and therefore we can throw out sola Scriptura“; so the Bible doesn’t teach sola Scriptura, therefore sola Scriptura is false. [0:47-1:25]

Yep; that’s what we Catholic apologists hone in on, and we do because it’s always important to focus on premises, and whether they can be supported (I learned that from Socrates in my philosophy courses in college). Secondly, its called for by the nature of sola Scriptura: if everything must be backed up by Scripture, and if lacking such support, a position must be false, then obviously, sola Scriptura, as a theological (technically ecclesiological) notion, must itself pass this test as well. The Protestant can’t escape this burden of proof.

The problem with how he presents Catholic apologetic polemics in this respect (above) is that he referred to the caricature of a radical “Scripture alone” position, rather than the true definition of sola Scriptura (where he and I fully agree). That is, he didn’t include the crucial distinction of “Scripture is the only infallible authority.” Some Catholic apologists indeed make this mistake. I mentioned a friend of mine, above, who did so, so I know it happens, and heaven knows I know (as a veteran of some thousand or more online debates over 25 years) how often Protestant apologists distort and caricature our beliefs. It’s an unfortunately common human failing and the bane of attempted constructive debate.

But I do not make this serious mistake, and I believe I’ve written more about this topic than any other Catholic apologist alive. If Jordan notes that “Catholic apologists” too often are fighting straw men, I’ll always readily agree (though we might quibble about how common it is, and how many professional / credentialed apologists like myself do so). But in any event, this doesn’t allow him to escape his task of finding sola Scriptura in Scripture itself. I say from thirty years of intense study of the topic that it’s not there, period.

Thus, I am intensely interested to see where Jordan thinks he can find it in Holy Scripture, in any sense (indirect or otherwise). I want to know why he believes it, and as a Protestant, the basis has to always be primarily, first and foremost, a biblical rationale I think that is also true, by the way, of a Catholic defending any position. They must always grapple with the relevant scriptural data, and I consistently do so in my work.

I think the question that we have is: do we have to find a particular Scripture that says Scripture is the only authority? And I just don’t think we have to. We don’t. There’s nothing in — you can’t find — in any of Paul’s letters, for example, . . . “by the way, Scripture is the only authority and traditions are not an authority and there is no magisterium that is given some kind of infallible authority to pass on infallible teachings.” It seems like a lot of Roman Catholic apologists think that for Protestants to defend their position, that they have to find a text that says that.” [1:39-2:14]

It’s not required for there to be one text that explicit and detailed. It can be a combination of texts: all of which assert part of the equation, or an indirect deduction from same. But the idea has to be there somewhere, since the Protestant says that Scripture is the norm. Jordan himself said in his first video:Scripture is the thing that norms everything else. . . . all of those [other] things are to be submitted to Scripture.” That includes the notion of sola Scriptura itself. How could it not?

If it doesn’t line up with the norm of Scripture, it’s false, according to the principle of sola Scriptura. It has to pass the test that it itself asserts as normative for everything else. The stream can’t rise above its source. It’s supremely important to line it up with the Bible, particularly because Protestants have made it one of their pillars, and a thing that determines whether all other doctrines are true or false. That supreme authority for the rule of faith can’t be a view that’s not even found in the Bible itself. Is this not self-evident?

I think, more so, what we have to do is just speak about the unique authority of Scripture and the unique nature of Scripture, and just to say that Scripture does present itself as God-breathed. 2 Timothy 3:16 is kind of the famous text that says this . . . [2:15-2:35]

This is the argument usually used, but it’s entirely beside the point and carries no force whatever. No Christian disagrees that only Scripture is God-breathed (inspired). It doesn’t follow that it is the only authority, as a result. Jordan already conceded that other authority exists in the Christian life (Church, tradition, fathers), but he denies (like a good Protestant always does) that they are infallible. But Scripture being the only inspired document doesn’t annihilate other infallible authorities. If it did, that would have to be stated in Scripture, and it never states such a thing.

On the other hand, the Bible does assert and support the Catholic / Orthodox rule of faith, in teaching the infallible authority of the Church in 1 Timothy 3:15 and at the Jerusalem Council (Acts 15), and it says that the Holy Spirit would guide the Church, as well as individual Christians. Here are relatively brief defenses of the first two arguments. I wrote about 1 Timothy 3:15 in my book, 100 Biblical Arguments Against Sola Scriptura (Catholic Answers: 2012, pp. 104-107, #82):

1 Timothy 3:15  [RSV] if I am delayed, you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth.

Pillars and foundations support things and prevent them from collapsing. To be a “bulwark” of the truth, means to be a “safety net” against truth turning into falsity. If the Church could err, it could not be what Scripture says it is. God’s truth would be the house built on a foundation of sand in Jesus’ parable. For this passage of Scripture to be true, the Church could not err — it must be infallible. A similar passage may cast further light on 1 Timothy 3:15:

Ephesians 2:19-21 . . . you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, [20] built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, [21] in whom the whole structure is joined together and grows into a holy temple in the Lord;

1 Timothy 3:15 defines “household of God” as “the church of the living God.” Therefore, we know that Ephesians 2:19-21 is also referring to the Church, even though that word is not present. Here the Church’s own “foundation” is “the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone.” The foundation of the Church itself is Jesus and apostles and prophets.

Prophets spoke “in the name of the Lord” (1 Chron 21:19; 2 Chron 33:18; Jer 26:9), and commonly introduced their utterances with “thus says the Lord” (Is 10:24; Jer 4:3; 26:4; Ezek 13:8; Amos 3:11-12; and many more). They spoke the “word of the Lord” (Is 1:10; 38:4; Jer 1:2; 13:3, 8; 14:1; Ezek 13:1-2; Hos 1:1; Joel 1:1; Jon 1:1; Mic 1:1, et cetera). These communications cannot contain any untruths insofar as they truly originate from God, with the prophet serving as a spokesman or intermediary of God (Jer 2:2; 26:8; Ezek 11:5; Zech 1:6; and many more). Likewise, apostles proclaimed truth unmixed with error (1 Cor 2:7-13; 1 Tim 2:7; 2 Tim 1:11-14; 2 Pet 1:12-21).

Does this foundation have any faults or cracks? Since Jesus is the cornerstone, he can hardly be a faulty foundation. Neither can the apostles or prophets err when teaching the inspired gospel message or proclaiming God’s word. In the way that apostles and prophets are infallible, so is the Church set up by our Lord Jesus Christ. We ourselves (all Christians) are incorporated into the Church (following the metaphor), on top of the foundation.

1 Peter 2:4-9 Come to him, to that living stone, rejected by men but in God’s sight chosen and precious; [5] and like living stones be yourselves built into a spiritual house, to be a holy priesthood, to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. [6] For it stands in scripture: “Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone, a cornerstone chosen and precious, and he who believes in him will not be put to shame.” [7] To you therefore who believe, he is precious, but for those who do not believe, “The very stone which the builders rejected has become the head of the corner,” [8] and “A stone that will make men stumble, a rock that will make them fall”; for they stumble because they disobey the word, as they were destined to do. [9] But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God’s own people, that you may declare the wonderful deeds of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light. (cf. Isa 28:16)

Jesus is without fault or untruth, and he is the cornerstone of the Church. The Church is also more than once even identified with Jesus himself, by being called his “Body” (Acts 9:5 cf. with 22:4 and 26:11; 1 Cor 12:27; Eph 1:22-23; 4:12; 5:23, 30; Col 1:24). That the Church is so intimately connected with Jesus, who is infallible, is itself a strong argument that the Church is also infallible and without error.

Therefore, the Church is built on the foundation of Jesus (perfect in all knowledge), and the prophets and apostles (who spoke infallible truth, often recorded in inspired, infallible Scripture). Moreover, it is the very “Body of Christ.” It stands to reason that the Church herself is infallible, by the same token. In the Bible, nowhere is truth presented as anything less than pure truth, unmixed with error. That was certainly how Paul conceived his own “tradition” that he received and passed down.

Knowing what truth is, how can its own foundation or pillar be something less than total truth (since truth itself contains no falsehoods, untruths, lies, or errors)? It cannot. It is impossible. It is a straightforward matter of logic and plain observation. A stream cannot rise above its source. What is built upon a foundation cannot be greater than the foundation. If it were, the whole structure would collapse.

If an elephant stood on the shoulders of a man as its foundation, that foundation would collapse. The base of a skyscraper has to hold the weight above it. The foundations of a suspension bridge over a river have to be strong enough to support that bridge.

Therefore, we must conclude that if the Church is the foundation of truth, the Church must be infallible, since truth is infallible, and the foundation cannot be lesser than that which is built upon it. And since there is another infallible authority apart from Scripture, sola scriptura must be false.

The Jerusalem Council (recorded in the Bible) demonstrated the sublime authority of the Church to make binding, infallible decrees (something sola Scriptura expressly denies can or should be the case). It claimed to be speaking in conjunction with the Holy Spirit (“it has seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us”: Acts 15:28) and its decree was delivered as such by the Apostle Paul in several cities (“As they went on their way through the cities, they delivered to them for observance the decisions which had been reached by the apostles and elders who were at Jerusalem”: Acts 16:4). I’ve written about this council’s authority and its “Catholic” implications many times.

In other words, the Bible asserts what sola Scriptura expressly rules out (infallible entities other than Scripture), and in doing so, it directly refutes sola Scriptura. So it’s not just a matter of Protestants having to find proof of sola Scriptura in the Bible, but the fact that the Bible — God’s inspired revelation — contains strong disproofs of it. Going on and on about biblical inspiration doesn’t accomplish one whit towards a defense of sola Scriptura.

Jordan brings up 2 Timothy 3:16, which is always inevitable in any Protestant presentation. But it proves nothing of the sort. It never denies that Church or tradition can also be infallible (whereas 1 Timothy 3:15 and Acts 15-16 prove that they certainly can be). I made a counter-argument about it in my first book, A Biblical Defense of Catholicism: (1996, published in 2003):

Ephesians 4:11-16 (RSV) And his gifts were that some should be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers, [12] to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, [13] until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ; [14] so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the cunning of men, by their craftiness in deceitful wiles. [15] Rather, speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ, [16] from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by every joint with which it is supplied, when each part is working properly, makes bodily growth and upbuilds itself in love.

The “exclusivist” or “dichotomous” form of reasoning employed by Protestant apologists here is fundamentally flawed. . . . Note that in Ephesians 4:11-15 the Christian believer is “equipped,” “built up,” brought into “unity and mature manhood,” “knowledge of Jesus,” “the fulness of Christ,” and even preserved from doctrinal confusion by means of the teaching function of the Church. This is a far stronger statement of the “perfecting” of the saints than 2 Timothy 3:16-17, yet it doesn’t even mention Scripture.

Therefore, the Protestant interpretation of 2 Timothy 3:16-17 proves too much, since if all nonscriptural elements are excluded in 2 Timothy, then, by analogy, Scripture would logically have to be excluded in Ephesians. It is far more reasonable to synthesize the two passages in an inclusive, complementary fashion, by recognizing that the mere absence of one or more elements in one passage does not mean that they are nonexistent. Thus, the Church and Scripture are both equally necessary and important for teaching. This is precisely the Catholic view. Neither passage is intended in an exclusive sense. (pp. 15-16)

The burden is really on them [Catholics or Orthodox] to prove that anything else has those characteristics . . . [3:35-3:41]

I have shown above from Scripture two instances, illustrating an infallible Church. Again, I have to stress that the issue in dispute is not inspiration (where all traditional, historical, trinitarian Christians fully agree), but rather, the scope of infallibility. One is a Pauline passage and the other a description of what happened in history, with the Jerusalem Council exercising infallible, binding authority for the Church universal. What it proclaimed in Jerusalem was preached by Paul (Acts 16:4) as binding throughout Asia Minor (Turkey). So I’ve already met his challenge. Jordan hasn’t met our perfectly reasonable and scriptural challenge at all. But there are thirteen minutes left in this tape. Maybe he will attempt it before it’s over.

I fundamentally deny that principle at all that to prove sola Scriptura you have to prove that the Bible says sola Scriptura somewhere. [4:40-4:50]

I don’t see how a Protestant can possibly say that, by the nature of sola Scriptura, and because of the arguments I have made above. Of course they have to prove that it is taught in Scripture, or at the very least is harmonious with what clearly is taught there, just as they have to do with every other doctrine they believe (and as we Catholics also have to do).

You have to prove that something else has that uniqueness that Scripture itself has, and claims for itself, and I don’t think that tradition, in the various forms . . . has that. [4:55-5:09]

Jordan has, more and more, as he goes on, shifted the discussion from infallibility, where it belongs, and which he mentioned in the first video as essential to the definition of sola Scriptura, to the “uniqueness” of Scripture (i.e., its inspiration). I think this is obfuscation. I don’t say he is deliberately doing it. He probably doesn’t realize it, but all of a sudden he’s implying that we have to prove that tradition and the Church are “God-breathed” as Scripture is. No one (of note) has ever said that they are that, — and anyone who did was clueless and theologically uneducated or heretical –, because it’s 1) untrue, and 2) isn’t the issue! The issue is “what is infallible? Does only the Bible have that characteristic?”

The high irony in this sort of argumentation is that Protestants always point out (as Jordan did in his first video) how so many Catholics botch the definition of sola Scriptura, leaving out the “infallibility” aspect. But then when it comes to having to defend the belief from Scripture, all of a sudden they completely neglect the infallibility aspect and talk only of inspiration, which is a completely separate issue and topic. It’s switching horses in mid-stream and it won’t do. Jordan has literally refused to defend it from Scripture; in effect he has conceded the entire discussion in so doing and has literally reduced his strongly held belief in sola Scriptura to a self-defeating proposition.

He then goes back to the “classic” text of 2 Timothy 3:16-17. What he argues is defeated, in my opinion, by reading Ephesians 4:11-16, which says much of the same thing, while never even mentioning Scripture. He mentions that it 2 Timothy said that the Bible was sufficient “to equip for every good work.” Yes it does. But so, too, does Ephesians 4:12, which states “to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ” while never mentioning Scripture in the entire context. Instead, the cause of those things are the offices of the Church and God’s gifts.

In conclusion, Jordan hasn’t offered us anything in the Bible to prove that the Bible is the only infallible authority, or anything in the Bible that denies that the Church or tradition can also possess that characteristic under carefully defined conditions. He gives us nothing that is of any force against Catholic tradition, and nothing that supports Protestant traditions where they differ with us.

He goes on to comment on Matthew 15: a passage about the Pharisees and their traditions, ultimately drawing an analogy between the first-century Jews and their traditions, added to Scripture, and Catholic tradition, and says that when they conflict, Scripture trumps tradition. This is the classic Protestant argument: implying that “tradition is a dirty word” in the New Testament. The big problem I have with it is that Jesus, several times, contrasts the bad traditions of men with the good apostolic — or longstanding Jewish — tradition, so that it’s not a clear-cut case of “Bible good, tradition bad.” Tradition can be (and is, in the NT) good or bad. Hence, these passages (“bad traditions” in red and “good” ones in green):

Matthew 15:3 He answered them, “And why do you transgress the commandment of God for the sake of your tradition?”

Matthew 15:6 So, for the sake of your tradition, you have made void the word of God.

Matthew 15:9 In vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the precepts of men.

Matthew 16:23 But he turned and said to Peter, “Get behind me, Satan! You are a hindrance to me; for you are not on the side of God, but of men” (cf. Mk 8:33).

Mark 7:8-9, 13 You leave the commandment of God, and hold fast the tradition of men.” And he said to them, “You have a fine way of rejecting the commandment of God, in order to keep your tradition! . . . thus making void the word of God through your tradition which you hand on. And many such things you do.”

Now, if Jordan and other Protestants want to quibble and say that Jesus doesn’t positively use the specific word “tradition” (paradosis), I retort that the usages above are (in context) equivalent. This is borne out all the more in Paul’s epistles, where he seems to have no such consciousness that tradition per se is a bad or almost always corrupt thing. He is so far from that, that he actually appears to place tradition on a par with Scripture, the gospel, and “the faith” (in terms of authority):

1 Corinthians 11:2  Maintain the traditions . .  . . even as I have delivered them to you.

2 Thessalonians 2:15  Hold to the traditions . . . .  taught . . . by word of mouth or by letter.

2 Thessalonians 3:6  . . . the tradition that you received from us.

1 Corinthians 15:1  . . . the gospel, which you received . . .

Galatians 1:9  . . . the gospel . . . which you received.

1 Thessalonians 2:9  We preached to you the gospel of God.

Acts 8:14 Samaria had received the word of God.

1 Thessalonians 2:13 You received the word of God, which you heard from us, . . .

2 Peter 2:21  . . . the holy commandment delivered to them.

Jude 3  . . . the Faith which was once for all delivered to the saints.

It is obvious from the above biblical data that the concepts of tradition, gospel, and word of God (as well as other terms) are essentially synonymous. All are predominantly oral, and all are referred to as being delivered and received. Tradition is right in there with them, without distinction. In St. Paul’s two letters to the Thessalonians alone we see that three of the above terms are used interchangeably.

In 2 Thessalonians “gospel” is mentioned twice (1:8 and 2:14), “tradition” twice (2:15 and 3:6), but neither “Scripture” nor “Scriptures” appears. “Word of the Lord” appears once (3:1), but it appears not to refer to the Bible. Likewise, in 1 Thessalonians “Scripture” or “Scriptures” never appear. “Word,” “word of the Lord,” or “word of God” appear five times (1:6,8, 2:13 [twice], 4:15), but in each instance it is clearly in the sense of oral proclamation, not Scripture.

Clearly then, tradition is not a dirty word in the Bible, particularly for St. Paul. If, on the other hand, one wants to maintain that it is, then gospel and word of God are also bad words! Thus, the commonly asserted dichotomy between the gospel and tradition, or between the Bible and tradition is unbiblical itself and must be discarded by the truly biblically minded person as (quite ironically) a corrupt tradition of men.

Paul is elsewhere almost unanimously positive about tradition. In the one place where he wasn’t (Col 2:8), he made a contrast of good and bad tradition, just as Jesus did:

Philippians 4:9 What you have learned and received and heard and seen in me, do; and the God of peace will be with you.

Colossians 2:8 See to it that no one makes a prey of you by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits of the universe, and not according to Christ.

2 Timothy 1:13-14 Follow the pattern of the sound words which you have heard from me . . . guard the truth which has been entrusted to you by the Holy Spirit who dwells within us.

2 Timothy 2:2 And what you have heard from me before many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also.

The bottom line of Jordan’s presentation is that the Protestant simply accepts sola Scriptura on faith as a (trusted, venerable, even sentimental) Protestant “tradition of men” and standard for all doctrines, even though it is (admittedly) a doctrine that can’t (with supreme irony) be found in the Bible. Jordan freely admitted that.

I do really appreciate his transparent honesty in admitting that the thing itself can’t be found in Holy Writ (only the uniqueness and inspiration of Scripture, which no serious, observant Christian denies). I’ve been making this point for over thirty years, so the support and agreement of a popular and influential Lutheran pastor in this respect is most welcome: very surprising, but welcome.

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Practical Matters: Perhaps some of my 4,000+ free online articles (the most comprehensive “one-stop” Catholic apologetics site) or fifty books have helped you (by God’s grace) to decide to become Catholic or to return to the Church, or better understand some doctrines and why we believe them.

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Summary: Lutheran pastor and theologian Jordan B. Cooper did two videos on the general subject matter of “Is Sola Scriptura Biblical?” I provide arguments for why it isn’t.

March 28, 2022

Debunking Yet More of the Endless Pseudo-“Contradictions” Supposedly All Over the Bible

Bart Ehrman is one of the most well-known and influential critics of traditional Christianity and the inspired Bible (“anti-theists”) writing today. Formerly, in his own words, he was “a fundamentalist for maybe 6 years; a conservative evangelical but not extreme right wing for maybe 5 years more; and a fairly mainstream liberal Christian for about 25.” The primary reason he gives for having lost his faith is the problem of evil (a very serious topic I have dealt with many times). He stated on 3-18-22 in a comment on his blog: “I could no longer explain how there could be a God active in this world given all the pain and misery in it.” I don’t question his sincerity, good intentions, intellectual honesty, or his past status as a Christian; only various opinions which Christians must (in consistency) regard as erroneous.

Dr. Ehrman “received his PhD and MDiv from Princeton Theological Seminary, where he studied textual criticism of the Bible, development of the New Testament canon and New Testament apocrypha under Bruce Metzger.” He has written 30 books, which have sold over two million copies and have been translated into 27 languages.

Ehrman explains that the purpose of his blog is “to disseminate scholarly knowledge of the New Testament and the earliest periods of the Christian church to a non-scholarly audience, . . . Every post is rooted in scholarship – not just my own but that of thousands of scholars who have worked for centuries on understanding the historical Jesus, the New Testament, and the origins of Christianity.” Well, the conclusions of scholars are only as good as the solidity and truthfulness of the premises by which they are operating.

This is one of a series of reply-papers, in which I will address many of his materials from the perspective of archaeology, history, and exegesis.

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I am responding to his article, “Is the Book of Acts Historically Reliable? The Negative Case.” (3-30-16). His words will be in blue.

There are two major ways to check to see if Luke is historically accurate.   The first is to see if he is internally consistent in his telling of his stories.  If not, then that would show that he is not particularly concerned to get the facts straight.  The second is to compare him with other reliable sources of the time to see if they coincide or not.  As it turns out, a number of things that Luke says about Paul are things that Paul himself talks about, so we can compare the two.  Whenever they talk about the same thing, they are at odds with one another.  Luke does not appear to be historically accurate.

First, internal consistency.  Luke sometimes tells the same story two or even three times.  When he does so, there are striking contradictions, which show, among other things, that Luke is more interested in spinning a good yarn than he is in preserving a historically accurate narrative.   Let me cite two examples.  First, Jesus’ ascension.  In Luke 24 (you can read it for yourself and see) Jesus rises from the dead, on that day meets with his disciples, and then, again that day, he ascends to heaven from the town of Bethany.   But when you read Acts 1, written by the same author, you find that Jesus did not ascend on that day or at that place.  Jesus instead spends forty days with his disciples proving to them that he had been raised from the dead (it’s not clear why he would have to prove it!  Let alone do so for forty days!); and only then — forty days after the resurrection– does he ascend. 

I’ve already refuted this objection in answering another atheist who argued in the same way: Seidensticker Folly #15: Jesus’ Ascension: One or 40 Days? (9-10-18). Summary: Luke in his Gospel was using the well-known literary technique of compression, or telescoping; i.e., condensing or abridging the story and leaving out details in a way which may lead some (not familiar with the technique) to erroneously believe that it all happened on one day. But this methodology was unquestionably used by ancient writers such as Josephus, Plutarch, Cicero, and Quintillian. It was described by Lucian of Samosata (c. 125 AD-after 180 AD), a Syrian rhetorician, in his treatise, How to Write History.

Ehrman himself recognized that the Gospel writers sometimes use the technique, since he wrote about Matthew’s account of the raising of Jairus’ daughter: “Matthew . . . has telescoped the story to make it much briefer” (4-22-19). He claimed that in doing so, Matthew introduced contradictions (what else?!), but nevertheless he still acknowledged that there was such a literary technique and that Matthew used it. Therefore, he can’t rule out at least the possibility that Luke also did in our present case. In other words, our reply is not mere rationalization. It’s plausible and it has demonstrable historical background.

And here he ascends not from Bethany but from Jerusalem.   Luke tells the same story twice, and in two radically different ways.  Historical accuracy does not appear to be his major concern.

I would say that accuracy in reporting what the Bible stated in the first place seems not to be Ehrman’s “major concern.” Here are the two passages:

Luke 24:50-52 (RSV) Then he led them out as far as Bethany, and lifting up his hands he blessed them. [51] While he blessed them, he parted from them, and was carried up into heaven. [52] And they returned to Jerusalem with great joy,

Acts 1:9-12 . . . as they were looking on, he was lifted up, and a cloud took him out of their sight. [10] And while they were gazing into heaven as he went, behold, two men stood by them in white robes, [11] and said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into heaven? This Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven.” [12] Then they returned to Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is near Jerusalem, a sabbath day’s journey away;

There simply is no contradiction here. In Luke 24, the text implies that Jesus ascended from Bethany, and that they “returned to Jerusalem” afterwards. In Acts 1, they also “returned to Jerusalem” (therefore the Ascension didn’t take place in Jerusalem!) after the Ascension took place on “the mount called Olivet, which is near Jerusalem.” Where’s the contradiction? Wikipedia (“Mount of Olives”) explains that “On the south-eastern slope of the Mount of Olives lies the Palestinian Arab village of al-Eizariya, identified with the ancient village of Bethany mentioned in the New Testament . . .” Likewise, John 11:18 states: “Bethany was near Jerusalem, about two miles off,”.

Neither text asserts that Jesus ascended to heaven from Jerusalem. He did so from the Mount of Olives, which Acts rightly distinguishes as separate from Jerusalem (as it was in the first century), while Luke mentions Bethany, which lies on the Mount of Olives. So it turns out that Ehrman (not the eminent historian Luke) is sloppy in his history, Bible reading, . . . and (if I do say so) the geography of first-century Israel.

Second example.  On three occasions Acts narrates the conversion of Paul on the road to Damascus, chapters 9, 22, and 26.  Compare them closely to one another, and you find very odd contradictions.   In chapter 9 Paul’s companions hear the voice of Jesus talking to Paul, but they don’t see anyone; in chapter 22 they see the light but don’t hear anything.  Which is it?  In Chapter 9 the companions are left standing while Paul falls to the ground; in chapter 26 they are all knocked to the ground.  Which is it?

Acts 9:3-7 Now as he journeyed he approached Damascus, and suddenly a light from heaven flashed about him. [4] And he fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to him, “Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?” [5] And he said, “Who are you, Lord?” And he said, “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting; [6] but rise and enter the city, and you will be told what you are to do.” [7] The men who were traveling with him stood speechless, hearing the voice but seeing no one.

Acts 22:6-9 “As I made my journey and drew near to Damascus, about noon a great light from heaven suddenly shone about me. [7] And I fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to me, ‘Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?’ [8] And I answered, ‘Who are you, Lord?’ And he said to me, ‘I am Jesus of Nazareth whom you are persecuting.’ [9] Now those who were with me saw the light but did not hear the voice of the one who was speaking to me.”

Acts 26:14 And when we had all fallen to the ground, I heard a voice saying to me in the Hebrew language, `Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me? It hurts you to kick against the goads.’

The Catholic Encyclopedia (“Acts of the Apostles”) disposed of this objection way back in 1907: 

It is urged that the three accounts of the conversion of St. Paul . . . do not agree. . . . There are many solutions of this difficulty. . . . Pape and others give to the eistekeisan the sense of an emphatic einai, and thus it could be rendered: “The men that journeyed with him became speechless”, thus agreeing with 26:14. Moreover, the three accounts can be placed in agreement by supposing that the several accounts contemplate the event at different moments of its course. All saw a great light; all heard a sound from Heaven. They fell on their faces in fear; and then, arising, stood still and speechless, while Paul conversed with Jesus, whose articulate voice he alone heard. In Acts 9:7, the marginal reading of the Revised Edition of Oxford should be accepted: “hearing the sound”. The Greek is akoyontes tes phones. When the writer speaks of the articulate voice of Christ, which Paul alone heard, he employs the phrase outer phrase, ekousan phonen. Thus the same term, phone, by a different grammatical construction, may signify the inarticulate sound of the voice which all heard and the articulate voice which Paul alone heard.

In chapters 9 and 22 Paul is told to go to Damascus to be instructed by a man named Ananias about what to do next.  In chapter 26 Paul is not told to go be instructed by Ananias, instead Jesus himself instructs him.  Well, which is it?

Acts 9:10-12 Now there was a disciple at Damascus named Anani’as. The Lord said to him in a vision, “Anani’as.” And he said, “Here I am, Lord.” [11] And the Lord said to him, “Rise and go to the street called Straight, and inquire in the house of Judas for a man of Tarsus named Saul; for behold, he is praying, [12] and he has seen a man named Anani’as come in and lay his hands on him so that he might regain his sight.” . . . 

Acts 22:10 And I said, `What shall I do, Lord?’ And the Lord said to me, `Rise, and go into Damascus, and there you will be told all that is appointed for you to do.’

Acts 26:15-18 And I said, `Who are you, Lord?’ And the Lord said, `I am Jesus whom you are persecuting. [16] But rise and stand upon your feet; for I have appeared to you for this purpose, to appoint you to serve and bear witness to the things in which you have seen me and to those in which I will appear to you, [17] delivering you from the people and from the Gentiles — to whom I send you [18] to open their eyes, that they may turn from darkness to light and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me.’

Much ado about nothing, again, as we see by simply reading the texts and applying logic (and not being hostile to and suspicious the texts without reason from the outset).

1) Acts 9: Paul learns (in a vision) that some stranger named Ananias would help him regain his sight after his dramatic conversion experience.

2) Acts 22: Paul is told to go to Damascus to be instructed, then he recounts how Ananias instructs and exhorts him.

3) Acts 26: Paul recalls some things that Jesus told him (having to do with his future mission) at the time of his conversion.

Ehrman first misrepresents the stories of Acts 9 and 22 (I don’t say deliberately, but he should know better, being a NT scholar). It’s just plain sloppy analysis. Acts 9 says nothing about Paul beingtold to go to Damascus to be instructed by a man named Ananias.” He simply saw a man identified as Ananias in a vision, who would, in effect, heal his temporary blindness. Nothing is here about either being sent to Damascus or being instructed by Ananias. The text talks about how Ananias was told by God in a vision to go visit Paul, but even so, it mentions nothing about “instruction.” So why does Ehrman project all these things onto the text that aren’t there? Who knows why?

In Acts 22 Paul is indeed told by God to go to Damascus and that he would be instructed. But God didn’t tell him that Ananias would do so. So Ehrman presents the two texts in an inaccurate way. They don’t contradict each other, though. The information is complementary and internally consistent. Ehrman then tries to make out that Acts 26 contradicts 9 and 22, simply because in that account, Paul recalled how Jesus had directly instructed him. But so what? Where is the supposed contradiction?

The texts taken together never assert that “only Ananias would instruct him” or “only God would instruct him.” If that had been the case, it would have been contradictory. They teach us that he was instructed by both. The more the merrier! First God did, and then Ananias affirmed that God was so speaking (to help Paul avoid being skeptical of his vision), with the evidence of a miracle to establish his own “credentials” as a man verifying what God had said. 

Why do we have to choose between these things (which is it?”), as if they can’t supposedly all exist together? We don’t! They exist in harmony and do not logically contradict. If Bart Ehrman disagrees, I suggest he revisit and refresh his memory as to what he learned in his logic class (if he ever took one), or read a book about logic now if he didn’t take the course in college. I’m not trying to be insulting (really, I’m not). We all have to learn how to think logically, and even when we do so, we can all fall into being so biased that we fail to correctly apply logic to a particular matter. Every textbook on logic provides examples of great thinkers falling into the trap of logical fallacies. If a person wishes to make serious charges against portions of the Bible, in terms of alleged contradictions, then he or she better have their “logical ducks” in a row. 

All these examples simply show that Luke was far more interested in telling a gripping story than he was in being consistent.  His artistic license has seriously undercut his historical accuracy.

They show no such thing, because — as I have now demonstrated — Ehrman’s charges all fall flat under intense scrutiny. Luke’s historical accuracy is demonstrated by being backed up by external archaeology and historiography at least fifty times.

But even more noteworthy are the external contradictions with a reliable source: Paul himself.  Whenever Acts relates an incident from Paul’s life that Paul himself discusses, there are striking and irreconcilable differences.   Sometimes these involve small details.  For example, Acts 17 is clear and unambiguous: when Paul traveled to bring the gospel to Athens, he came by himself, without Timothy or any of the other apostles  But Paul himself is also clear and unambiguous; in 1 Thessalonians 3 we learn that he came to Athens precisely in the company of Timothy, not by himself.  It couldn’t be both.

Acts 17:14-17 Then the brethren immediately sent Paul off on his way to the sea, but Silas and Timothy remained there. [15] Those who conducted Paul brought him as far as Athens; and receiving a command for Silas and Timothy to come to him as soon as possible, they departed. [16] Now while Paul was waiting for them at Athens, his spirit was provoked within him as he saw that the city was full of idols. [17] So he argued in the synagogue with the Jews and the devout persons, and in the market place every day with those who chanced to be there.

1 Thessalonians 3:1-2 Therefore when we could bear it no longer, we were willing to be left behind at Athens alone, [2] and we sent Timothy, our brother and God’s servant in the gospel of Christ, to establish you in your faith and to exhort you,

This is yet another non sequitur and non-contradiction. Let me explain how and why it isn’t. Paul came by himself to Athens, and gave instructions to the sailors who brought him there to inform Silas and Timothy (presumably through some sort of mail, or by going back to where they were) to meet him in Athens “as soon as possible.”

1 Thessalonians, contrary to Ehrman’s skeptical “gotcha!” claim, did not assert that Paul came to Athens precisely in the company of Timothy.” It says nothing at all about who went there with him. It simply says that Paul was writing to the Thessalonians, about whom he was concerned (2:17-18), because of their suffering (2:13-14). So he sent Timothy (who was at this time with him) to exhort and comfort the Thessalonians, to be able to withstand the “afflictions” that are the “lot” of Christians (3:2-7). We know Timothy was eventually with him in Athens, but we don’t know from this text that he went there with him. That comes solely from Bart Ehrman’s zealous and overactive imagination.

Paul had asked that Timothy and Silas come as soon as possible. So Timothy eventually arrived (perhaps Silas couldn’t make it for some reason), and Paul sent him off to comfort other suffering Christians. In an earlier article (9-4-13), Ehrman added another equally false claim of alleged biblical contradiction, contending that “the book of Acts states that when Paul went to Athens, he left Timothy and Silas behind in Berea (Acts 17:10-15) and did not meet up with them again until after he left Athens and arrived in Corinth (18:5). . . . It’s a minor detail.  But it serves to show something about the historical reliability of Acts . . .”

Actually, the book of Acts doesn’t deny that Paul met with Timothy and Silas between the time they all were in Berea and another later time when all were in Corinth. That comes from Ehrman’s fertile imagination only, and can’t be positively proven from the information we have in the Bible. Acts simply says that “Silas and Timothy arrived [in Corinth] from Macedo’nia” (18:5). Since it says absolutely nothing about the in-between time in Athens (neither affirming nor denying either Timothy or Silas’ presence there), it’s perfectly consistent, logically, for Paul to say in 1 Thessalonians that Timothy was with him part of the time (not from the beginning), before he sent him away on a mission.   

So it looks like (but isn’t certain) that Silas never made it to Athens during Paul’s stay. Then in Acts 18: he arrives in Corinth from Macedonia, which makes perfect sense, seeing that Berea (where he was last mentioned as being) is in Macedonia. This is more evidence that he never left Macedonia previously (for whatever reason) to go to Athens and evangelize with Paul. So Ehrman is correct about Silas, but not about Timothy. He was sent by Paul from Athens to Thessalonica, and now he is said to be traveling to Corinth to meet Paul from Macedonia. Yep: this is perfectly reasonable, too, since Thessalonica is also one region of Macedonia. So it all fits perfectly together with no contradiction. Foiled again!  

I reiterate: where’s the contradiction? There “is” one if a person sets up a straw man that can’t be demonstrated in the text itself. This is what Ehrman has done. Shame on him making such an intellectually sloppy and groundless argument and passing it off in public as if it were a “biblical contradiction.”

In another post attacking Acts and Luke (9-5-13), Ehrman pontificates:

We could deal forever with the question of the historical accuracy of Acts. There are entire books devoted to the problem and even to *aspects* of the problem, and different scholars come to different conclusions. My own view is that since Acts is at odds with Paul just about every time they talk about the same thing, that it is probably not to be taken as very accurate, especially in its detail. 

Yes we could, (I for one would be delighted to do more of this), and I highly suspect that Ehrman’s arguments will be just as weak, flimsy, and fallacious as all of them refuted in this article were. He’s come up with a big zero so far; therefore, his triumphalistic attack on Acts falls on deaf ears. He has proven no such thing. If his loyal followers think he has, then I say they need to take a refresher course in logic along with Bart.

Sometimes the differences really matter.  When Paul himself talks about his conversion in Galatians 1 he insists that after he had his vision of Jesus he did not – he absolutely and positively did not (he swears to it!) – go to confer with the other apostles in Jerusalem.  Not for years.  And what happens when Paul converts according to Acts 9?  What is the first thing he does after he leaves Damascus?  He makes a bee-line to Jerusalem to confer with the other apostles.  In Acts he does precisely what he himself swears he didn’t do.

This is clearly another instance of compression, or telescoping. Luke employs it in Acts 9, which is his narrative of Paul’s conversion and his meeting the apostles: just as he did in his Gospel, chapter 24, and Paul does not in Galatians 1. But in Acts 22:17, Paul himself uses the same technique of compression, during his trial. He recounts his conversion, then (desiring to condense the story for whatever reason) skips right over the three years in Arabia at Acts 22:17 and starts talking about being in Jerusalem and the initial skepticism that he had converted, after persecuting Christians. So Paul does it one place and not in another (which is perfectly fine). This is how ancient literature works. And no doubt there are analogous examples in our time as well.

Even more striking than the contradictions in the itinerary and travels of Paul are the discrepancies in his preaching.  Here I give just one example.  In Acts 17 when Paul is preaching to the pagans of Athens, he tells them that they worship idols out of ignorance.  They simply don’t know any better.  And because of that, God overlooks their mistake; but he now gives them a chance to recognize the truth and worship him alone.  

Exactly. Here, Ehrman actually (to his great credit) portrays what is in the text, instead of warring against a straw man that isn’t in the text. But it doesn’t last for long! In Athens, Paul noted and praised the Athenians worship of a “god”: albeit an “unknown” one. So it’s not a question of denying God’s existence altogether, but rather, of worship that lacks particulars as to the nature and identity of the one they are worshiping. Paul then used the opportunity of their lack of knowledge and simultaneous sincere and pious religiosity, to proclaim the gospel of Jesus Christ and the nature of the one true God. He uses what they know and builds upon it, up to and including the Christian message.

That stands in sharp contrast with the views that Paul himself lays out in his letter to the Romans.  In chapter one Paul states his views of pagan idolatry and false worship, and they are completely contrary to what he allegedly said in Acts 17.  In Romans Paul tells us that pagans worship idols precisely because they did know that there was only one God who was to be worshiped, and they rejected that knowledge in full consciousness of what they were doing. And because of that God has cast his wrath down upon them.   Well which is it?  Do they commit idolatry out of pure ignorance so God overlooks their mistake?  Or are they fully aware of what they’re doing so God judges them?  Assuming Paul himself knew what his own views were, you would have to say that Acts has misrepresented the very core of his preaching message.

It’s apples and oranges and another non-contradiction. In Acts 17 in Athens, Paul is addressing a situation where the Athenians had an “altar” with the inscription, “To an unknown god” whom they worshiped (17:23). This he perceived as their being pious and “very religious” (17:22). That’s not atheism: not a deliberate rejection of any god or God (nor even agnosticism), but ignorant religiosity; religion minus knowledge and particulars. Paul in effect praises it and expressly categorizes it as “ignorance” that “God overlooked” (17:30). 

In Romans 1 he is addressing something utterly different than that: “men who by their wickedness suppress the truth” (1:18); people who “knew God” but “did not honor him as God or give thanks to him” (1:21) and “did not see fit to acknowledge God” (1:28). This is a vastly different approach from the Athenians (or at least those who worshiped the “unknown god”). Paul isn’t addressing all pagans whatever, but specifically, people with these characteristics.

Having stated this, he goes right into a very ecumenical, welcoming message in the next chapter (and the original New Testament didn’t contain chapters): one of possible salvation for all human beings (“glory and honor and peace for every one who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek. For God shows no partiality.”: 2:10-11). He teaches that abiding by a good conscience could very well bring salvation to anyone: Jew or Gentile alike (2:14-16). Obviously, then, he is not condemning all pagans and non-Jews with the wave of a hand. In Romans 1 he specifically condemned those who know there is a God and who deliberately reject Him, knowing that He exists.

So, as usual, no contradiction exists here, either. Ehrman simply failed to closely read the text and draw the proper distinctions. I suggest that he read much more carefully, and not be consumed by his excessive skeptical zeal.

Every time you compare what Acts has to say about Paul with what Paul has to say about himself, you find discrepancies.  Just as you find discrepancies internally, whenever Acts recounts the same event more than once.   As valuable as Acts may be as an interesting story about the first years and decades of the early Christian movement, the reality is that the book of Acts is not historically reliable.

That’s his claim. However, upon close examination, none of the examples he provided prove what he is trying to say: that Luke is contradictory and unreliable. Therefore, since I have done my own research and have presented fifty instances where he was reliable, based on archaeology (which is objective science and not arbitrary subjective fluff), and since these contradictions have not been proven (which is putting it mildly), I stand by Luke as a reliable historian.

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Ehrman’s “reply” in his combox:

Paul doesn’t join up with Timothy until later in Acts, not while he is still in Athens.

My counter-reply:

As I already noted, Paul stated that Timothy was eventually with him in Athens, because he sent him somewhere else:

1 Thessalonians 3:1-2 (RSV) Therefore when we could bear it no longer, we were willing to be left behind at Athens alone, [2] and we sent Timothy, our brother and God’s servant in the gospel of Christ, to establish you in your faith and to exhort you,

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Photo credit: St. Paul (c. 1611), by Peter Paul Rubens (1577-1640) [public domain / Wikimedia Commons]

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Summary: Agnostic Bible skeptic Bart Ehrman writes about “Luke the unreliable historian” by suggesting self-contradictions that don’t in fact exist upon a closer look.

March 24, 2022

Bart Ehrman is one of the most well-known and influential critics of traditional Christianity and the inspired Bible (“anti-theists”) writing today. Formerly, in his own words, he was “a fundamentalist for maybe 6 years; a conservative evangelical but not extreme right wing for maybe 5 years more; and a fairly mainstream liberal Christian for about 25.” The primary reason he gives for having lost his faith is the problem of evil (a very serious topic I have dealt with many times). He stated on 3-18-22 in a comment on his blog: “I could no longer explain how there could be a God active in this world given all the pain and misery in it.” I don’t question his sincerity, good intentions, intellectual honesty, or his past status as a Christian; only various opinions which Christians must (in consistency) regard as erroneous.

Dr. Ehrman “received his PhD and MDiv from Princeton Theological Seminary, where he studied textual criticism of the Bible, development of the New Testament canon and New Testament apocrypha under Bruce Metzger.” He has written 30 books, which have sold over two million copies and have been translated into 27 languages.

Ehrman explains that the purpose of his blog is “to disseminate scholarly knowledge of the New Testament and the earliest periods of the Christian church to a non-scholarly audience, . . . Every post is rooted in scholarship – not just my own but that of thousands of scholars who have worked for centuries on understanding the historical Jesus, the New Testament, and the origins of Christianity.” Well, the conclusions of scholars are only as good as the solidity and truthfulness of the premises by which they are operating.

This is one of a series of reply-papers, in which I will address many of his materials from the perspective of archaeology, history, and exegesis.

*****

I am responding to a portion of his article, Internal Discrepancies in the Gospel of John (6-26-18). His words will be in blue.

In John 5:1, Jesus goes to Jerusalem, where he spends the entire chapter healing and teaching. The author’s comment after this discourse, however, is somewhat puzzling: “After this, Jesus went to the other side of the Sea of Galilee” (6:1). How could he go to the other side of the sea if he is not already on one of its sides? In fact, he is nowhere near the Sea of Galilee; he is in Jerusalem of Judea.

This might seem strange to us but it wouldn’t at all to Galilean Jews in the first century who lived on the west side of the Sea of Galilee (Capernaum, where Peter’s house was and where Jesus stayed for a time). The east side was known by them as the “other side” because it was a different culture: a Gentile one. I can think of at least two American examples that are analogous to this usage.

The Grand Canyon in Arizona has, of course, two sides, or rims: the south rim and the north rim. The south rim is vastly more popular and gets ten times as many visitors. I had visited the south rim three times (hiking to the bottom on my second visit), and then in 2019 finally visited the north rim. If I were talking to anyone who had been to the Grand Canyon, I could have said, “we went to the other side of the Grand Canyon this year” and they would know exactly what I was talking about.

Secondly, as a Michigander, if I were to say that “we’re gonna visit the other side of Lake Huron / Michigan / Superior / Erie” (i.e., the Great Lakes), it would be immediately understood by anyone from Michigan that it’s the west side of Lake Michigan (in Illinois and Wisconsin), the east side of Lake Huron and north side of Lake Superior (in Ontario, Canada), and the south side of Lake Erie (in Ohio). And I have visited all those places. It has to do with the side that one is more familiar with (the Michigan side!) and/or where one lives. In that context, “the other side” is immediately understood. This analogy is almost a perfect one.

And that’s exactly what we have with regard to “the other side” of the Sea of Galilee. It was understood by Galileans that the west side was far more familiar and that referring to “the other side” was clearly the eastern Gentile side of the lake. There is still very little on the immediate shores on the east side to this day (I visited the area in 2014). Accordingly, not just the Gospel of John, but the other three Gospels all use this standard title in referring to the east side of the Sea of Galilee: which is precisely how it could be referred to as a destination from any part of the country (in this instance, from Jerusalem):

Matthew (four times): Matthew 8:18, 28; 14:22; 16:5.

Mark (five times): Mark 4:35; 5:1, 21; 6:45; 8:13.

Luke (one time): Luke 8:22.

John (three times): John 6:1, 22, 25.

The title was understood to such an extent that in all but two of fifteen instances of the phrase “other side” occurring in the New Testament, it refers to the eastern shore of the Sea of Galilee (Luke 10:30-31 being a generic, “non-title” usage). They didn’t even bother to say “east side” or “Gentile side” of the lake or whatever the region was called then (Gerasa or Gergesa, etc.) because everyone knew what “the other side” referred to. The Evangelists could have used the phrase “east side” had they chosen to (it appears 33 times in the Old Testament, though not in the new, and “east” appears eight times in the NT). But none of them chose to do that.

In any event, this objection is really “scraping the bottom of the barrel” in terms of alleged biblical “contradictions”: and I’m familiar with hundreds, having replied to a great number of them. Once we understand the reasoning and rationale above, I believe that it vanishes (alongside countless other “faux / pseudo- / alleged ‘contradictions’ “).

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Practical Matters: Perhaps some of my 4,000+ free online articles (the most comprehensive “one-stop” Catholic apologetics site) or fifty books have helped you (by God’s grace) to decide to become Catholic or to return to the Church, or better understand some doctrines and why we believe them.

Or you may believe my work is worthy to support for the purpose of apologetics and evangelism in general. If so, please seriously consider a much-needed financial contribution. I’m always in need of more funds: especially monthly support. “The laborer is worthy of his wages” (1 Tim 5:18, NKJV). 1 December 2021 was my 20th anniversary as a full-time Catholic apologist, and February 2022 marked the 25th anniversary of my blog.

PayPal donations are the easiest: just send to my email address: apologistdave@gmail.com. You’ll see the term “Catholic Used Book Service”, which is my old side-business. To learn about the different methods of contributing, including 100% tax deduction, etc., see my page: About Catholic Apologist Dave Armstrong / Donation InformationThanks a million from the bottom of my heart!

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Photo credit: Zachi Evenor (2-5-14) Sea of Galilee: panorama of the southern end [Wikimedia Commons / Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike 4.0 International license]

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Summary: Agnostic Bible critic Bart Ehrman tries to make out that it’s “contradictory” to refer to the “other side” of the Sea of Galilee without being on the opposite side.

 

March 23, 2022

Bart Ehrman is one of the most well-known and influential critics of traditional Christianity and the inspired Bible (“anti-theists”) writing today. Formerly, in his own words, he was “a fundamentalist for maybe 6 years; a conservative evangelical but not extreme right wing for maybe 5 years more; and a fairly mainstream liberal Christian for about 25.” The primary reason he gives for having lost his faith is the problem of evil (a very serious topic I have dealt with many times). He stated on 3-18-22 in a comment on his blog: “I could no longer explain how there could be a God active in this world given all the pain and misery in it.” I don’t question his sincerity, good intentions, intellectual honesty, or his past status as a Christian; only various opinions which Christians must (in consistency) regard as erroneous.

Dr. Ehrman “received his PhD and MDiv from Princeton Theological Seminary, where he studied textual criticism of the Bible, development of the New Testament canon and New Testament apocrypha under Bruce Metzger.” He has written 30 books, which have sold over two million copies and have been translated into 27 languages.

Ehrman explains that the purpose of his blog is “to disseminate scholarly knowledge of the New Testament and the earliest periods of the Christian church to a non-scholarly audience, . . . Every post is rooted in scholarship – not just my own but that of thousands of scholars who have worked for centuries on understanding the historical Jesus, the New Testament, and the origins of Christianity.” Well, the conclusions of scholars are only as good as the solidity and truthfulness of the premises by which they are operating.

This is one of a series of reply-papers, in which I will address many of his materials from the perspective of archaeology, history, and exegesis.

*****

I am responding to his article, Israel’s Conquest of the Promised Land: Did Any of That Happen? (8-25-21). His words will be in blue.

I want to address a question lots of people typically have about these stories of the Conquest of Canaan in the book of Joshua.   Did any of this happen?

Here’s how I discuss the matter in my book The Bible: A Historical and Literary Introduction (Oxford University Press), a book you should consider getting if you’re interested in knowing both what’s in the Bible and what scholars say about it from historical and literary perspectives. . . . 

[T]he narratives of Joshua . . . are clearly molded according to theological assumptions and perspectives.  There is almost nothing in the accounts that suggest that the author is trying to be purely descriptive of things that really happened.  He is writing an account that is guided by his religious agenda, not by pure historical interests.  That is why, when read closely, one finds so many problems with the narratives. . . . 

  • In the archaeological record there is no support for the kind of violent destruction of the cities of Canaan – especially the ones mentioned in Joshua.  Think for a second: if one were to look for archaeological evidence, or other external verification, to support the historical narratives of Joshua, what would one look for?
    • References to the invasion and conquest in other written sources.
    • Evidence that there were indeed walled cities and towns in Canaan at the time.
    • Archaeological evidence that the cities and towns mentioned actually were destroyed at the time (Jericho, Ai, Heshbon, etc.).  . . . 

And what kind of verification do we actually get for the narratives of Joshua?  None of the above.  There are no references in any other ancient source to a massive destruction of the cities of Canaan.  There were few walled towns at the time.  Many of the specific cities cited as places of conquest did not even exist as cities at the time. 

I addressed Hazor in my previous article. Remember, Ehrman claimed there was “no support . . . none” for “violent destruction of the cities of Canaan – especially the ones mentioned in Joshua”: as I detail below the actual, specific archaeological evidence that he thinks is nonexistent. It’s easy (and very foolish) to make  “universal negative” statements. And it’s easy as pie to shoot them down. Even a single counter-example already logically demolishes such sweeping and “triumphalistic” claims. But I will produce many counter-examples.

This includes, most notably, Jericho, which was not inhabited in the late 13th century BCE, as archaeologists have decisively shown (see box). 

Jericho is a special case, due to the rapid level of erosion caused by the arid climate and the closeness of the Dead Sea: one of the saltiest bodies of water in the world. I explained this in my paper, Joshua’s Conquest & Archaeology.

The same thing applies to Ai and Heshbon.  These cities were neither occupied, nor conquered, nor re-inhabited in the days of Joshua.

The data from Ai is inconclusive and does not thus far appear to positively support the biblical account. Archaeologist Kenneth Kitchen stated that there was a new settlement “at about 1220/1200 or soon after” (1): which is still Joshua’s era. Avraham Negev and Shimon Gibson state:

The Iron Age I village at et-Tell was probably biblical Ai. The “men of Ai” whom Joshua defeated in the wadi north of the site (Josh. 8:1-29) were probably the first inhabitants of the Iron Age I site. (p. 23)

But Kitchen states that “Ai is enigmatic” (3). The evidence is even much less impressive for Heshbon. Christians need not be embarrassed by the occasional lack of confirmation of Scripture or scanty evidence in archaeology. There are many many more instances where the data confirms the Bible: often rather dramatically. So “score two” for Ehrman. He chose his examples wisely. But his sweeping, grandiose claims regarding the “conquest” do not hold up, as I will now show.

Lachish

Joshua 10:31-32 And Joshua passed on from Libnah, and all Israel with him, to Lachish, and laid siege to it, and assaulted it: [32] and the LORD gave Lachish into the hand of Israel, and he took it on the second day, and smote it with the edge of the sword, and every person in it, as he had done to Libnah.

Archaeological Level VII of Lachish has been dated to the 13th century BC, and its destruction determined to be the middle or latter part of the 12th century BC. According to Israeli archaeologist David Ussishkin, “the biblical description (in Josh. 10:31-32) fits the archaeological data: a large Canaanite city destroyed by fire; . . . and complete desertion of the razed city explained by the annihilation of the populace.” As with Hazor, a small Iron Age settlements appeared not long afterwards. (4)

Bethel

Judges 1:22-25 The house of Joseph also went up against Bethel; and the LORD was with them. [23] And the house of Joseph sent to spy out Bethel. (Now the name of the city was formerly Luz.) [24] And the spies saw a man coming out of the city, and they said to him, “Pray, show us the way into the city, and we will deal kindly with you.” [25] And he showed them the way into the city; and they smote the city with the edge of the sword, but they let the man and all his family go.

The destruction of the Late Bronze Age town was by fire, and dated by William Albright to around 1240-1235 BC. This was followed by a relatively poor and different Israelite Iron Age I settlement. This was what happened according to archaeologists Amihai Mazar and Israel FinkelsteinNegev and Gibson (5) added that “The last Late Bronze Age stratum is covered by a very thick layer of ashes and charred and fallen bricks.”

Bruce Waltke notes Canaanite cities that underwent “catastrophic destructions”:

Hazor (Tell el-Qedah), Megiddo (Tell el-Mutesellim), Succoth (Tell Deir Alla), Bethel (Beitin), Beth Shemesh (Tell er-Remeileh), Ashdod (Esdud), Lachish (Tell ed-Duweir), Eglon (Tell el-esi), and Debir or Kiriath-Sepher (Tell Beit Mirsim or Khirbet Rabud). . . .

On the other hand, he differentiated cities mentioned in the Bible that show no sign of destruction, in line with the biblical accounts:

Gibeon (el-Jib) (Joshua 9), Taanach (Tell Taaannak) (Judg 1:27), Shechem (Tell Balatah) (Josh 24), Jerusalem (el-Quds) (Josh 15:63; 2 Sam 5:6-9), Beth-shean (Tell el-husn) (Judg 1:27-28), and Gezer (Tell Jezer) (Josh 10:33). (6)

Dr. Kitchen assessed the overall evidence and harmony with the scriptural accounts and concluded “eighteen or nineteen” sites out of twenty “were in being in Late Bronze (II)”, according to what we have determined by archaeology. He stated that Makkedah was an exception to the rule because “most of that site is not accessible, hence is not decisive.” (7)

He concluded from the research: “This review shows up the far greater deficiencies in some critiques of the Joshua narratives and list that are now already out-of-date and distinctly misleading.” (8)

Azekah

Joshua 10:10 And the LORD threw them into a panic before Israel, who slew them with a great slaughter at Gibeon, and chased them by the way of the ascent of Beth-hor’on, and smote them as far as Aze’kah and Makke’dah. (cf. 10:11; 15:35).

Azekah was occupied right through the early, Middle, and Late Bronze periods, as well as through the Iron Age . . . (9).

Libnah

Joshua 10:29-30 Then Joshua . . . fought against Libnah; [30] and the LORD gave it also and its king into the hand of Israel; and he smote it with the edge of the sword, and every person in it; he left none remaining in it; . . .

Libnah . . . can be plausibly identified with Tell Bornat (Tel Burna), which was inhabited in the Late Bronze Age, in agreement with the probable date of Joshua’s raids. (10)

. . . settled in the Early Bronze Age and Iron Age I-II (11).

Eglon

Joshua 10:34-35 And Joshua passed on with all Israel from Lachish to Eglon; and they laid siege to it, and assaulted it; [35] and they took it on that day, and smote it with the edge of the sword; and every person in it he utterly destroyed that day, . . .

Eglon . . . is in all likelihood to be sited at present-day Tell ‘Aitun (Tell ‘Eton), occupied in the Late Bronze II period . . . (12).

Debir

Joshua 10:38-39 Then Joshua, with all Israel, turned back to Debir and assaulted it, [39] and he took it with its king and all its towns; and they smote them with the edge of the sword, and utterly destroyed every person in it; he left none remaining; . . .

Debir . . . is more securely located at Khirbet Rabud . . . this site was inhabited in the fourteenth/thirteenth centuries, in the Late Bronze II period, and was reoccupied directly in Early Iron I (twelfth century). (13).

Gaza

Joshua 10:41 And Joshua defeated them from Ka’desh-bar’nea to Gaza . . . (cf. 14:6-7; 15:3).

Archaeological soundings . . . in 1922 . . . uncovered a series of walls, the earliest of which was associated with Late Bronze Age pottery . . . Egyptian texts dating to the reign of Thutmosis II [r. 1493-1479 BC] refer to Gazat “a prize city of the governor,” indicating at least a 15th century BC date for the occupation of the site. Gaza is also mentioned in the El Amarna [c. 1350 BC] and Taanach tablets [also c. 1350 BC] as an Egyptian administrative center . . . (14)

Shift in cultural patterns: that is, evidence of new people taking over from other peoples of a different culture (as you get in the Americas when Europeans came over bringing with them their own culture, different from that of the native Americans).

Ehrman claimed that there was no evidence for this, which is false. Junkkaala summarized his in-depth study of these cities that are mentioned in the Bible in conjunction with Joshua and the Israeli conquest and subsequent settlement:

This study has included 29 sites, which have been divided into two main categories: the “conquered cities” and the “unconquered cities”. The first category has been subdivided into three groups: excavated cities, surveyed cities and others. In all of the “unconquered cities” excavations have been carried out.
*
Two questions were asked concerning each of the sites: were they inhabited in the periods in question (Late Bronze Age II, Iron Age I and II), and can we know something about the cultural backgrounds of the inhabitants. In most cases it could be determined that the culture was influenced either by the Coastal Plain culture (C) or the Hill Country culture (H). The third possibility was the Sea People culture (mostly Philistines, P). . . .
*
The list of the “conquered cities” contains 19 sites. 12 of them have been excavated, 5 have been surveyed and 2 neither have been carried out. In 10 of the 12 excavated cities C-culture dominated in the Late Bronze Age II and in 3 of them (Ai, Arad and Makkedah) there was no identifiable settlement in that period. The cultural change between the Late Bronze Age II and Iron Age I can be seen in all of the sites, although in some it is not very obvious. This change does not happen simultaneously, in Ai the H-culture begins in Iron Age I as in almost all the other cities in this group, but Arad and Makkedah have no settlement until Iron Age II.
*
In 8 of the 12 excavated sites the new settlers seem to represent H culture. . . .
*
The list of the “unconquered cities” contains 10 sites, all of which have been excavated. C-culture dominated in all the sites in Late Bronze Age II. In the Iron Age I the same culture (C) has been found in at least 4 of them and P-culture or its variations in 5 of them (Gezer, Jarmuth, Dor, Aphek, and Achsaph). . . .
*
The conspicuous difference between the archaeology of the “conquered” and the “unconquered” cities is that in the former ones the H-culture begins during Iron Age I (although not commencing simultaneously), and in the latter it only starts in Iron Age II. (15)
This is strong archaeological confirmation of the biblical descriptions of the conquest. Waltke (backed up by others) (16) made a similar observation:
The sudden emergence of hundreds of new sites by pastoral nomads in Iron I contrasts sharply with the reduced number of sites in LB in comparison with MB. Kochavi (17) wrote: “During the Late Bronze Age, and especially towards its end, new small unfortified settlements are known. However, with the beginning of the Iron Age, they suddenly appear by the hundreds.” I. Finkelstein (18) elaborates:

Altogether only 25-30 sites were occupied in the Late Bronze II (c. 1400-1200 BC) between the Jezreel and Beer-Sheva valleys. Human activity was confined mainly to the large central tells…. It is highly unlikely, therefore, that many additional Late Bronze sites will be discovered in the future, because it is difficult to overlook such major settlements. Other regions were also practically deserted during the Late Bronze period…. In Iron I there was a dramatic swing back in the population of the hill country. About 240 sites of the period are known in the area between the Jezreel and Beer-Sheva valleys; 96 in Manasseh, 122 in Ephraim… and 22 in Benjamin and Judah. In addition, 68 sites have been identified in Galilee, 18 in the Jordan Valley and dozens of others on the Transjordanian plateau.

As I noted in my previous article, Ehrman likes Israel Finkelstein a lot. He thinks his 2002 book, The Bible Unearthed, is “absolutely terrific . . . Really great, in every way”, and that Finkelstein and co-author Neil Asher Silberman are “highly established and incredibly learned scholars who seem to know everything relevant to the Hebrew Bible . . . far more qualified than I to say anything about the history of ancient Israel” (“Did David Exist? And When Did I Know I Lost My Faith?”, 4-15-17).

Archaeology is often a speculative and inexact science. But I submit that there is more than enough verification in the above information to establish that the Bible was (yet again) substantially accurate in its claims regarding the “conquest” of Canaan begun by Joshua, and certainly enough to counter Ehrman’s grotesquely exaggerated claims that there is no evidence or archaeological verification of the historical accounts in Joshua.

Footnotes

(1) Kenneth A. Kitchen, On the Reliability of the Old Testament (Grand Rapids and Cambridge: William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company, 2003), 188.

(2) Avraham Negev and Shimon Gibson, Archaeological Encyclopedia of the Holy Land (New York: Continuum, revised edition of 2001).

(3) Kitchen, ibid., 188.

(4) Eero Junkkaala, Three Conquests of Canaan: A Comparative Study of Two Egyptian Military Campaigns and Joshua 10-12 in the Light of Recent Archaeological Evidence (Finland: Abo Akademie University Press, 2006), 235-236, 238.

(5) Negev & Gibson, ibid., 221.

(6) Bruce K. Waltke, “The Date of the Conquest” (Westminster Theological Journal 52.2 [Fall 1990]: 181-200); citation from pages 197-198.

(7) Kitchen, ibid., 186.

(8) Kitchen, ibid., 189.

(9) Kitchen, ibid., 183.

(10) Kitchen, ibid., 183.

(11) Negev and Gibson, ibid., 299.

(12) Kitchen, ibid., 184.

(13) Kitchen, ibid., 184.

(14) Negev and Gibson, ibid., “Gaza”, 191.

(15) Junkkaala, ibid., 299-300.

(16) Waltke, ibid., 197-198.

(17) M. Kochavi, “The Israelite Settlement in Canaan in the light of Archaeological Surveys,” Biblical Archaeology Today (Jerusalem: Israel Exploration Society, 1985), 55.

(18) Israel Finkelstein, The Archaeology of the Israelite Settlement (Jerusalem: Israel Exploration Society 1988), 39.

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Practical Matters: Perhaps some of my 4,000+ free online articles (the most comprehensive “one-stop” Catholic apologetics site) or fifty books have helped you (by God’s grace) to decide to become Catholic or to return to the Church, or better understand some doctrines and why we believe them.

Or you may believe my work is worthy to support for the purpose of apologetics and evangelism in general. If so, please seriously consider a much-needed financial contribution. I’m always in need of more funds: especially monthly support. “The laborer is worthy of his wages” (1 Tim 5:18, NKJV). 1 December 2021 was my 20th anniversary as a full-time Catholic apologist, and February 2022 marked the 25th anniversary of my blog.

PayPal donations are the easiest: just send to my email address: apologistdave@gmail.com. You’ll see the term “Catholic Used Book Service”, which is my old side-business. To learn about the different methods of contributing, including 100% tax deduction, etc., see my page: About Catholic Apologist Dave Armstrong / Donation InformationThanks a million from the bottom of my heart!

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Photo credit: Egyptologist Kenneth Kitchen’s landmark book on Old Testament archaeology [Amazon book page image]

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Summary: I produce much evidence regarding Joshua’s conquest & science, but agnostic Bible skeptic Bart Ehrman contends that there is little or no such archaeological evidence.

 

March 4, 2022

Atheist anti-theist and “philosopher” Jonathan M. S. Pearce runs the blog, A Tippling Philosopher. He has encouraged me to visit his site and offer critiques, and wrote under a post dated 12-14-21: “I even need to thank the naysayers. Some of them have put up with a lot of robust pushback and still they come. Bravery or stupidity – it’s a fine line. But they are committed, and there is something to be said for taking that commitment into the lion’s den. Dave, you are welcome at my new place. Come challenge me. . . . thanks for your critiques of my pieces. Sorry I couldn’t get to more of them.” This echoes his words about me in a post dated 7-20-17, where he said, “well done . . . for coming here and suffering the slings and arrows of atheists’ wrath. . . . I commend him for getting involved and defending himself. Goodonya, mate.” 

Under a post dated 1-27-22, he stated: “I do welcome disagreements because I don’t want [my blog] to [be] just an echo chamber. . . . [S]omeone like Armstrong does give me ammunition for some of my pieces!” Likewise, on 3-18-14 he proclaimed: “Dissenting views are utterly vital to being sure that you are warranted in your own beliefs and views.” And on 7-20-17“I put my ideas and theories about the world out there for people to criticise. . . . I want to make damned sure that they are warranted. I can’t stand the idea that I could . . . believe something that is properly unwarranted. . . . What’s the point in self-delusion? . . . I put something out there, people attack it, and if it still stands, it’s pretty robust and I am happy to hold it. If not, I adapt and change my views accordingly.”

I’m delighted to oblige his wish to receive critiques and dissenting views! The rarity of his counter-replies, however, is an oddity and curiosity in light of this desire. He wrote, for example, on 11-22-19: “[I can’t be] someone who genuinely is not interested in finding out the truth about philosophy, God and everything. If I come up against any point that is even remotely problematic to my worldview, I feel the absolute necessity to bottom it out. I need to reconcile at least something; I have work to do. I cannot simply leave it as it is. . . . I would simply have to counter the arguments, or change my position.” Whatever; this hasn’t been my experience with him; only in short and infrequent spurts. I continue to offer them in any event, because they aren’t just for his sake.

Here’s what he thinks (by the way) of Jesus: “The Jesus as reported in the Gospels is so far removed from the real and historical figure of Jesus, overlaid with myth, story-telling, propaganda and evangelist agenda, that the end result is synonymous with myth. . . . I’d take mythicism over Christianity any day. And they call mythicists fringe as if the position is absurd? Now that’s crazy.” (8-2-14)

Jonathan’s words will be in blue.

*****

This is part of a series of replies to Jonathan’s book, The Nativity: A Critical Examination (Onus Books, 2012). I am utilizing a text from Barnes & Noble (Nook Book) which has no page numbers, so I can only cite chapter names.

I. Fact or Fiction?

[T]he infancy narratives are (at least mainly) fictional. (Introduction)

This is just to let my readers know what Jonathan thinks of these biblical texts. As we start to closely examine the rationale and arguments he makes, that form his “cumulative case” that he thinks is “water-tight”, we’ll see how flimsy and pitiful it really is. I’ve already strongly critiqued his related arguments several times and never found any significant difficulty in doing so. One can have fifty weak strands of rope or weak links that won’t become any stronger, just because they are collected together.

II. Incidents That Couldn’t Possibly Have Been Recorded?

Pearce marvels at incidents recorded in the Bible “to which there were probably no witnesses (Jesus talking to Herod) available to the Gospel writers. All these speeches seem to have been remarkably well-preserved . . .” (Introduction to the texts)

What an odd choice of example, since “chief priests and the scribes stood by” (Lk 23:10) as did Herod’s “soldiers” (Lk 23:11). All it would take was one or two of these to report about this encounter, which entered into either oral tradition or directly into one of the Gospels. But as it is, Luke records not a single word that Herod said; it only notes that “he questioned him at some length” (Lk 23:9).

Since only Luke reports this incident, there was no secret or “miraculous” knowledge involved. All that is reported is that Herod questioned Jesus. We’re supposed to believe that no follower of Jesus could have possibly known that that happened? It’s ridiculous. It took only one follower to follow the irate persecuting crowds with Jesus from a distance and see them enter into Herod’s palace.

III. “No” Extra-Biblical Corroboration of the Gospels?

[T]he Gospels . . . are not attested by extra-biblical sources. This means that no other source outside of the Bible, and contemporary with the events or with the Gospel accounts, reports and corroborates the events claimed within the Gospels. (Introduction to the texts)

Nonsense! Jonathan also claimed that Christians can produce a few extra-biblical historians, who only proved that Christians “existed.” What?! I recently completed articles in which I demonstrated that there were fifty such corroborations for Luke’s accuracy in the Gospel of Luke and the Book of Acts, and another 17 for the Gospel of John. That’s 67 more than none.

Jonathan gets in trouble here with his mindless “universal negatives”: as so often. I appreciate enthusiasm for a cause (even a well-intentioned bad one), but when it leads to utter misrepresentation and lies because one’s extreme bias is so out of control, it’s no longer worth very much.

IV. Jonathan Unable to Distinguish Between a Newborn and a Toddler

We have [in Matthew] . . . Herod massacring children in the search for this newborn ‘usurper’: (The Gospel of Matthew)

The huge error here is that Jesus wasn’t a newborn when the wise men visited Him. He was most likely between 1-2 years old, but definitely not a newborn. I explained this at some length in my article, Bethlehem Joseph / Census Issues (2-28-22).

So we have the deliciously humorous and ironic circumstance of Jonathan — in the midst of carping on and on about supposedly profound Gospel inaccuracy — not even knowing that this passage is not about the newborn Jesus. It’s quite unimpressive to observe him ignorantly distorting the biblical text wholesale in order to mock and “reject” it (i.e., a straw man of the real thing).

V. Ruth Was a Harlot or Adulterer? And Maybe the Virgin Mary, Too, According to Matthew and Jonathan?

Tamar, Rahab, Ruth and Bathsheba . . . were all known adulterers and harlots. With Mary included as a female in this list [a genealogy], perhaps Matthew is hinting something covertly. (The Virgin Birth)

Tamar (Gen 38:13-24) and Rahab (Josh 2:1) were indeed harlots, and Bathsheba an adulterer (famously with King David). Jonathan got some biblical facts right! Stop the presses! But Ruth? One looks in vain throughout the book bearing her name for any hint of harlotry. She was widowed and got married again. That‘s harlotry (or adultery), according to Jonathan?

Having insulted her with one of the worst accusations that can possibly be hurled at a woman, he then makes the blasphemous charge that the Blessed Virgin Mary herself might be in one of these categories [blasphemy is a category that includes much more than just God], and that Matthew was “perhaps . . . hinting” such an unthinkable thing. This is as ridiculous as it is outrageous. Lying blasphemy is never far from skepticism. This is a prime example of that.

VI. Was “Virgin” Mistranslated from Isaiah 7:14?

Jonathan devotes an entire chapter to this question, claiming that “Matthew misappropriated the passage from Isaiah for his own theological ends.” I already refuted his contentions over three years ago: Reply to Atheist Jonathan MS Pearce: “Mistranslation” of “Virgin”? (Isaiah 7:14) (with Glenn Miller) [7-26-17].

He also claimed in this chapter (“The mistranslation of virgin”) that “dual prophecies have no precedent — there are simply no other examples of such a thing.” Nonsense (and more of his clueless universal negative claims). I refuted that idea, too, over a year ago: Dual Fulfillment of Prophecy & the Virgin Birth (vs. JMS Pearce) [12-18-20].

VII. Do Matthew and Luke’s Genealogies Contradict Each Other?

Next up is Jonathan’s chapter, “The contradictory genealogies“. I dealt with this topic already as well: Reply to Atheist Jonathan MS Pearce: “Contradictory” Genealogies of Christ? [7-27-17].

VIII. Micah 5:2, Bethlehem, and Nazareth

Matthew and Luke . . . mistranslate the prophecy [of Micah 5:2] . . . (To Bethlehem or not to Bethlehem)

Once again I have offered a thorough refutation already: Reply to Atheist Jonathan MS Pearce: Bethlehem & Nazareth “Contradictions” (Including Extensive Exegetical Analysis of Micah 5:2) [7-28-17].

[I]t seems that Jesus was born in Nazareth . . . The Gospel of Mark seems to indicate that Jesus was from Nazareth. . . . Mark 1:9 declares: “Jesus came from Nazareth . . .” (To Bethlehem or not to Bethlehem)

His “argument” is that Mark calls Him “Jesus of Nazareth” and calls Nazareth His “hometown.” So what?! It was His hometown from the age of 1 or 2. It doesn’t follow that He was born there or that Mark’s simply not dealing with His birth means that He denied that Bethlehem was where He was born. This is the well-known “argument from silence” fallacy, and it’s always a flimsy, nonexistent pseudo-“argument” whenever it’s desperately trotted out. I dealt with this nonsense in the above paper:

In all appearances of “Nazareth” in conjunction with Jesus, never once does it say that He was born there. The Bible says that He “dwelt” there (Mt 2:23), that He was “from” there (Mt 21:11; Mk 1:9), that He was “of” Nazareth (Mt 26:71; Mk 1:24; 10:47; 16:6; Lk 4:34, 18:37; 24:19; Jn 1:45; 18:5, 7; 19:19; Acts 2:22; 3:6; 4:10; 6:14; 10:38; 22:8; 26:9), “out of” Nazareth (Jn  1:46), “brought up” there (Lk 4:16), that Jesus called Nazareth “his own country” (Lk 4:23-24), . . . Not one word about being born in Nazareth occurs in any of those 28 references. . . .

Take, for example (by analogy), the singer Bob Dylan. He was born in Duluth, Minnesota, but lived in Hibbing, Minnesota from the age of six (I happened to visit this house on our vacation this year: being a big fan). That‘s where everyone who knows anything about him says and understands that he was raised and where he spent his childhood. Consequently, no one ever says that he is “from” Duluth or “of” Duluth or was “brought up” there. Even many avid Dylan fans don’t even know that he wasn’t born in Hibbing.

All of those things are said about Hibbing: precisely as the Bible habitually refers to Nazareth in relation to Jesus. It’s talking about His hometown, where He was always known to live, prior to His three-year itinerant ministry. In the Bible, people were generally named after the places where they were from. Yet Jonathan seems to expect that the Bible should say that Jesus was “of” or “from” Bethlehem, rather than Nazareth, because He was born there. It doesn’t. It says that He was “of” or “from” Nazareth because that was His hometown. And it says that He was born in Bethlehem; never that He was born in Nazareth. All the biblical data is on my side of this contention. All Jonathan has is silence and empty speculation.

IX. Returning to an “Ancestral” or a Present Tribal Town for a Census?

Luke 2:3-4 (RSV) And all went to be enrolled, each to his own city. [4] And Joseph also went up from Galilee, from the city of Nazareth, to Judea, to the city of David, which is called Bethlehem, because he was of the house and lineage of David,

Luke does provide a reason for Joseph to go —  because Bethlehem is his ancestral town. [typo corrected; he had Luke instead of Joseph] (Why return to an ancestral town for a census?)

What Luke actually writes is that Bethlehem is Joseph’s “own city”; i.e., he lived there (or at least his family did). The last clause above need not be interpreted as “everyone had to go to their ancestral city.” It could simply mean that Joseph went to Bethlehem and lived there because he was descended from David, who also lived there. But “house and lineage of David” could also refer to one’s tribe.

It doesn’t have to be some convoluted calculation going back 41 generations (as Jonathan has fun with: only making himself look ridiculous). First century Jews knew what tribe they were part of. David and Joseph his descendant were of the tribe of Judah, and Bethlehem was in the northern part of that.

Biblical linguist Marvin Vincent, in his Word Studies in the New Testament, concurs: “According to the Jewish mode of registration the people would be enrolled by tribes, families or clans, and households. Compare Joshua 7:16-18.” Even Roman citizens — as Jonathan notes in his next chapter — “were registered by tribe and class.” So Joseph was going to where his tribe (and he himself) lived.

Joseph was taking his betrothed to a home in Bethlehem, where they lived for 1-2 years after Jesus was born (as we know from the visit of the magi). He happened to live in Bethlehem which just happened to be where his illustrious ancestor David was known from Scripture to have been from. This ain’t rocket science.

X. Pearce Embarrassingly Botches the Meaning of the Immaculate Conception  

. . . Mary becoming pregnant via the Holy Spirit . . . she had immaculately conceived . . . (Heavily pregnant? On your donkey!)

As any minimally educated Catholic knows, the Immaculate Conception refers to Mary’s conception and grace received from God, causing her to be free from both actual and original sin. It does not refer to the virgin birth of Jesus. Yet a man this ignorant deigns to sanctimoniously lecture Christians about the supposedly hopelessly contradictory Gospels (that they are almost totally myths). It’s embarrassing. He can’t even get right what they teach in the first place.

XI. “Heavily Pregnant” Donkey Ride?

Jonathan (in the same chapter and its title) describes Mary as “heavily pregnant” on the journey. How does he know that, pray tell? All the text says is that she was “with child” (Lk 2:5). So he makes it up (one of his many fairy tales), to make it look really really bad and callous and cruel on Joseph’s part. At least he restrained his hyper-polemics to some small degree. By the time of his article, Summing up the Nativity as Concisely as Possible (12-2-16), his amazing powers of seeing in Scripture things that aren’t there became exaggerated to describing Mary on this journey as a “9 month pregnant partner.”

XII. Jonathan Still Can’t Figure Out the Difference Between a Newborn and a Toddler

In his chapter, “No work for you, Joseph!” Jonathan finally seems to figure out that the magi visited a 1-2 year old Jesus; not the newborn Jesus. He writes: “These two events . . . appear not to happen concurrently . . . (and many claim that Jesus was a toddler by this time).” He actually got something in the Bible right: just as an unplugged clock gives the correct time twice a day. But alas, as soon as he stumbled into the truth, he went back to the falsehood in his next chapter (“The magi are copied from Daniel and are clearly a theological mechanism“):

They were sent to Bethlehem to praise the newborn king . . . 

Then he cites the ubiquitous Richard Carrier spewing the same error: “Matthew alone depicts Magi visiting Christ at birth . . .”

In his chapter 20 (“The magi and shepherds as evangelists are strangely silent“), he reiterates the error: “The magi . . . had undergone a huge effort just to drop some presents off and praise a baby . . .”

XIII. Mary Doubted That Jesus is the Messiah?

[W]hat could have possessed Mary . . . to doubt the messianic qualities of her son? (Any other business)

There simply is no evidence that this was the case, as I have written about several times (perhaps that’s why Jonathan doesn’t even try to document it):

Jesus’ “Brothers” Were “Unbelievers”? (Jason also claims that “Mary believed in Jesus,” but wavered, and had a “sort of inconsistent faith”) (vs. Jason Engwer) [5-27-20]

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XIV. Nazareth Maybe Didn’t Exist in Jesus’ Time Because a Supposed Catholic Pawn (Actually Jewish) Archaeologist Said it Did?!

Jonathan starts sowing the seeds of doubt and then mentions an archaeological dig in 2009 and concedes (?), stating: “we can see that the Myth of Nazareth theory . . . falls apart.” (Any other business). Having arrived at this ray of truth he immediately qualifies it in the next sentence: “However, things aren’t so simple. . . . Firstly, the dig was being carried out by the Catholic Church . . . We have no evidence, just the word of an archaeologist employed by the Catholic Church.”

I recently tackled this subject: Pearce’s Potshots #64: Archaeology & 1st Century Nazareth (2-25-22). Jonathan is outdoing himself in his fanatical cluelessness this time: more dumbfoundedness and “polemical desperation” than he usually exhibits (and that’s really saying something). The archaeologist in question, that he mentions by name, is Yardenna Alexandre, a British-Israeli Jew, and she was digging for the Israel Antiquities Authority (hardly a Catholic pawn), according to a report in The Times of Israel (7-22-20). Jonathan lays out bullet points as to why he thinks these findings are “suspect”:

Alexandre has not published any of the findings or verified any of the claims.

In volume 98 of ‘Atiqot (2020): the publication of the Israel Antiquities Authority, her 68-page article, “The Settlement History of Nazareth in the Iron Age and Early Roman Period” is found (fully accessible as a PDF file at the preceding journal link).

The Israel Antiquities Authority published a short statement, only to take it off the web soon after.

I see. Sounds like some kind of conspiracy, doesn’t it?! Be that as it may, since its own publication now hosts a 68-page description of the findings (complete with copious photographs and diagrams), it’s a rather moot point, ain’t it?

The Church remains the only port of call for verifying the claims.

That would come as big news to the Israel Antiquities Authority, who sponsored the dig.

The Church (rather conveniently) proceeded to build over the remains meaning it can never be verified.

Really? Oooh: more nefarious conspiracies by those wicked, devious, science-hating Catholics!

No materials exist in any scholarly record.

Well, if they didn’t in 2012 (since the excavation had only finished up the year before, and these things take time: as anyone familiar with the rigorous method of archaeology knows), they certainly do now, and there is additional evidence noted in my article above.

[I]t clearly shows the levels to which the Catholic Church (or any religious organisation) are willing to go to support their worldview. These points make the entire house claim thoroughly dubious. . . . The evidence has since been destroyed, it seems, without any independent and professional corroboration. . . . I remain agnostic as to whether Nazareth existed or was inhabited at the time of Jesus.

Some folks are slow and reluctant to follow the scientifically ascertained facts. Some might say that Jonathan wrote his book in 2012, and that he might change his mind by now, in early 2022. Not so! I pointed out that I had verified the archaeological excavations of early 1st-century Nazareth on his blog, and (rather than thanking me for the update) he became angry at me and stated that I had misrepresented his view and should read his book to see what that was. Now I have done so. At the time (just a week ago as I write), I was going by his own statement on his blog, from 10-29-12:

In my book, The Nativity: A Critical Examination, I think I give ample evidence that allows one to conclude that the historicity of the nativity accounts is sorely and surely challenged. All of the aspects and claims, that is. There are problems, for sure, if one accepts that some claims are false but others are true. But the simple fact of the matter is that all of the claims are highly questionable.

Here are the hoops that a Christian must jump through. They are flaming hoops, and the Christian can do nothing to avoid being burnt, it seems. From my book: 

In order for the Christian who believes that both accounts are factually true to uphold that faithful decree, the following steps must take place. The believer must: . . . 

• Believe that, despite archaeological evidence, Nazareth existed as a proper settlement at the time of Jesus’ birth.

As he said, the last two paragraphs there were from his book. And I see them now, on the very next two pages in the Nook Book version. I did nothing wrong in interpreting his words as I did. It was just “the Christian always has to be wrong in a dispute with an atheist, no matter what!” canard.

As it is, Jonathan wants to play the game of talking out of both sides of his mouth. He pokes fun of the Christian belief in the existence of first-century Nazareth (based on both the historically reliable Bible and archaeology), but falls short of asserting that it definitely didn’t, and remains “agnostic” on the question. How intellectually brave and courageous!  He covers his rear end, to please whoever he happens to be with at any given moment.

He plays the same game regarding Jesus mythicism, as we see in his words cited near the top of this article. He’s not a mythicist himself, but he mocks and derides anyone who thinks it is a fringe position in academia (as it certainly is: believed by no more than 1% of historians: if even that many). He has to “kiss up” like this because of the ever-growing ranks of mythicists among the atheist crowd these days. It’s an utterly pathetic and a disgraceful performance, from someone who refers to himself as a “philosopher.”

XV. Postscript: Jonathan’s Increasing Mockery and/or Silence in the Face of Legitimate and Substantive Critique

Jonathan doesn’t exhibit much of a desire to interact with substantive critiques anymore: such as the many I have lately been offering and posting on his blog. Here is how he responded to me there, on 3-1-22:

STOP IT STOP IT STOP IT. Please stop this. All you are doing is spouting the absolutely debunked drivel apologetics that my book takes to task. . . . I welcome your comments, but these are totally off-topic and you show absolutely no desire to interact with my own material . . . [capitalized “yelling” is his own]
And a day earlier, he waxed: “Oh very dear. This is rather embarrassing for you.” 
As anyone can see, my replies are almost solely devoted to direct interaction with his material. He mostly insults me now, all the while falsely claiming — almost in a semi-paranoid fashion — that my critiques are merely personal attacks on him; and he refuses to offer any intelligent counter-reply.
In other words, he’s melting down, after previously inviting me to come to his blog and offer critiques: see his words at the top of this article. If you persistently refute an atheist’s attacks on Christianity and the Bible (this is my 70th critique of Jonathan), this is what you eventually get. My friend, Paul Hoffer summed up the incongruity of his manifest attitude very well:
If Pearce were a real skeptic, he would thank you for your critical analysis, reexamine his own premises and conclusions and then either defend them if he still thinks he is in the right or adjust his thinking to fit the evidence. Instead, he comes across like a mutton-chopped millennial yelling at the barista at Starbucks who got his latte wrong.
He’s become progressively more hostile and rude. Despite all that sad display, however, I do think he’s basically a nice guy who is a much better person than his putrid, flatulent ideology. I think we’d have a great time in a pub over beer. He simply can’t handle being refuted. He’s like lots and lots of people of all stripes in that respect. And it’s the bane of my existence (as an apologist and lover of socratic dialogue), to see so few people willing to enter into the pleasure of true dialogue.
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This is the fruit of the widely held atheist notion that all Christians are idiots, simply by virtue of the fact that they are Christians. They can’t possibly be honest, either: so tens of thousands of atheists think and express. So the more I replied to him, the more hostile he became, because this just ain’t supposed to happen, you see: that a lowly, imbecilic Christian can actually prevail in a debate (and many debates) over a smarter-than-thou atheist.
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His blog is supposed to be a place for civil, ethical discussion between atheists and Christians. The new venue where it is hosted (OnlySky) — to its credit — has made a huge and sincere, commendable effort to foster civil discussion. Yet massive insults sent my way are freely allowed on Jonathan’s site, and even the guy who co-runs the blog with Jonathan (Bert Bigelow) made the following comment, congratulating a fellow mocker: “Huzzah! For the best, most articulate, and most detailed put-down of Dave A that I have seen. Thanks for taking the time to do it.” (3-3-22).
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See how it works? An atheist blog is a place where the “moderators” [choke] literally encourage the commenters to engage in extended “put-down[s]” of Christians who dare to object to the cynical, lying misrepresentations of Christianity and the Bible. Yet Jonathan and his buddies, almost to a person, are scared to death of coming to my blog and commenting, even though they are treated courteously, and I would disallow personal insults from anyone sent their way.

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They keep lying over there and claiming that I ban everyone as soon as they disagree with me, which is laughably ludicrous and manifestly, patently false. My interactions with Jonathan alone (who is most welcome on my blog, but rarely appears there) disprove the tired slander.
Proverbs 9:8 (RSV) Do not reprove a scoffer, or he will hate you; reprove a wise man, and he will love you.
Proverbs 14:6 . . . a fool throws off restraint and is careless.
Proverbs 29:9, 11 If a wise man has an argument with a fool, the fool only rages and laughs, and there is no quiet. . . . [11] A fool gives full vent to his anger, but a wise man quietly holds it back.
The only person who engaged in a perfectly normal, courteous, serious, substantive, enjoyable, charitable, sustained dialogue with me at Jonathan’s blog (i.e., after Jonathan stopped doing so) was “Lex Lata” (see our two-part dialogue [one / two] on the demoniacs and the pigs, Gerasenes and Gadarenes, etc.). People like Lex give me faith in the continuity of dialogue. I know it’s possible, and I’ve engaged in great dialogues with atheists many times (my very favorite of all of my 1000 + dialogues — way back in 2001 –, was, in fact, with an atheist).
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But it’s rarer than a needle in a haystack, and the patience required to wait until one finds such an ultra-rare golden opportunity (and the willingness to be a “pin cushion” and a “dart board” for months on end) is scarcely humanly possible. But for the grace of God . . .
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I will continue to critique Jonathan’s articles if I find something I haven’t dealt with yet: as opportunity arises. He’ll come to regret his contemptuous attitude, sent in my direction, in full view of all his back-slapping cronies and sycophants, because it only makes me more determined to spend time refuting his (and other atheists’) endless, relentless calumnies and slanders against the faith and the Bible and Christians.
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But to end on a positive note: I do sincerely thank Jonathan for the relatively few times that he did actually offer a substantive counter-response to my critiques of his work (see a listing of those, under my name, in a search on his blog). That’s much more than I can say about his fellow well-known online anti-theist atheist polemicists Bob Seidensticker, Dr. David Madison, and John Loftus, who have never done it even once, after literally 80, 46, and 24 critiques (respectively) sent their way: adding up to 150 unanswered critiques.

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Photo credit: Cover of Pearce’s book on the GoodReads site.

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Summary: I take on anti-theist atheist Jonathan MS Pearce’s Nativity book errors. As always (sorely lacking grace), he demonstrates that he is relentlessly clueless & out to sea.


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