2023-03-13T15:09:59-04:00

Jason Engwer, a Protestant apologist who runs the Triablogue site, wrote posts entitled, “Agreement Among The Gospels About How Jesus Raised The Dead” (5-29-22) and “Did Jesus offer support for praying to the deceased by speaking to people he raised from the dead?” (3-5-23).  I replied with my article, “Prayers to and for the Dead: Did Jesus & Peter Talk to Dead People Before They Rose from the Dead, and — Along with Elijah and Elisha — Pray for the Dead, or Only Ask Them to Move After They Were Raised?” (3-5-23). Jason then replied to me with his piece, “Do Luke 8:55 and Acts 9:40 support praying to the dead?” (3-9-23). His words will be in blue. My Bible passages are from RSV.

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Jason never mentions my name in his counter-reply. But it’s clearly replying to my piece, since the two verses in his title were prominent in my reply, and he starts out by writing:

Let’s consider some objections to my post earlier this week about whether Jesus and Peter offered support for praying to the deceased when they spoke to people they raised from the dead in the gospels and Acts. Probably the two best passages that could be cited in support of interpreting this material in a way that supports prayers to the deceased are Luke 8:55 and Acts 9:40.

I had answered him on the same day he wrote his second of two articles on the topic, and his current reply came four days after that. It’s not rocket science to put two and two together.

Luke 8 mentions the return of the girl’s spirit to her body after mentioning Jesus’ comment to her. Acts 9:40 says that Peter turned to the woman’s body just before speaking to her, and we don’t normally refer to a living person with a phrase like “the body”. Rather, it’s more common to use that language when referring to a corpse. Shouldn’t we conclude, then, that Jesus and Peter were speaking to the dead in these passages, which offers support for praying to the deceased?

That was indeed my central argument. If he can’t bring himself to link to my article, so that people can read it in context, at least the next best thing is to accurately describe it to his readers. I thank him for this courtesy, which is not always a given in discussions like these, believe me.

I cited several resurrection passages across both the Old and New Testaments. The resurrections often, but not always, occur through touching (1 Kings 17:21-23, 2 Kings 4:34-37, 13:21, Acts 20:10) or occur in passages that mention touching in a way that possibly or probably was instrumental to the raising of the dead person (Matthew 9:25, Mark 5:41-42, Luke 7:14-15, 8:54-55). Notice that the two passages cited in the title of this post are in Luke’s writings and that a few of the passages just cited in this paragraph are from his writings. So, Luke is one of the sources who often associates touching with the raising of the dead.

It’s true that touching is usually involved. Jesus routinely used the physical (analogous to sacramentalism) when healing. In one case He made mud with His own saliva and rubbed it in a blind man’s eyes. The question at hand, however, is whether He and others spoke to, and/or prayed for dead persons while they were dead. This, of course, is anathema to Protestantism, which is why Jason is fighting so hard to try to escape from this interpretation of these passages having to do with raising the dead. I shall contend that he is desperately special pleading, and bring several Protestant commentators as my witnesses.

Jason proves nothing if he can’t establish with a high degree of plausibility that in all cases (or even one undeniable one) the talking and prayers occurred after the person was dead. It will do no good for him to appeal to cases where no words are mentioned. That’s simply an ineffectual argument from silence. Moreover, if the text mentions no words, it’s not proof that none were spoken (only that none were recorded, either because none were indeed spoken, or because the writer chose not to include them, for whatever reason). But that’s an argument from silence, too. In other words, this particular dispute is a wash.

But we can analyze the passages where words are recorded, to try to determine when they were uttered, which is a crucial issue to be resolved in relation to prayers to and for the dead. The first passage that Jason mentions is 1 Kings 17:21-23, where the prophet Elijah raised a child from the dead. But he doesn’t present the passage in full to his readers. I did (with 17:17-20 added):

1 Kings 17:21-22 Then he stretched himself upon the child three times, and cried to the LORD, “O LORD my God, let this child’s soul come into him again.” [22] And the LORD hearkened to the voice of Eli’jah; and the soul of the child came into him again, and he revived.

Now, Jason makes an argument that these texts aren’t necessarily chronological. He wrote:

Why, then, does Luke 8:55 mention the return of the girl’s spirit after Jesus’ comment to the girl? Probably because Luke isn’t mentioning things in chronological order. People often write chronologically, but not always. Go on to verse 56. It mentions that the girl’s parents were amazed. Did their amazement not begin until after the events of verse 55? No, they surely were amazed as soon as they saw their daughter’s body moving. They wouldn’t have waited until after she had gotten up and started walking to be amazed. They would have been amazed as soon as she even started to get up, if not sooner (e.g., seeing her breathing, seeing her eyes open). What Luke is doing is focusing on some events centered around Jesus (verse 54), then focusing on events centered around the girl (verse 55), then focusing on events centered around the parents (verse 56). It doesn’t follow that the events of each of the latter two verses happened after what’s mentioned in the previous verse(s). There could be some overlap in the chronology involved. Maybe an analogy would help here. Let’s say I’m describing what a man and his wife did one day. I mention the man’s activities in chronological order: going to work, going to the bank after work to deposit a check, etc. And I mention his wife’s activities in chronological order: doing some shopping, making dinner, etc. Since I mentioned the wife’s activities after her husband’s, does it follow that everything the wife did occurred after everything the husband did? If the last activity I mentioned in the man’s life was going to bed, and the first activity I mentioned in the woman’s life was getting out of bed, does it follow that she got out of bed, went shopping, etc. after her husband went to bed? Of course not. Rather, their activities overlapped. She was shopping while her husband was at work, she was making dinner while he was going to the bank, and so on. I shifted my focus from the man’s activities to the woman’s without intending to suggest that the woman’s activities occurred later. Given the totality of the evidence, as discussed in this post and my previous two, Luke seems to be doing the same kind of thing in Luke 8.

I’ll get to Luke 8 in due course, and I freely grant that Bible writers not infrequently do not write according to strict chronology. But let’s apply this reasoning to 1 Kings 17:21-22. How does this argument overcome the clear data there? It simply cannot, because included in Elijah’s prayer is proof that he was praying for a dead person (“O LORD my God, let this child’s soul come into him again”). There’s absolutely no way to explain that away, according to hostile Protestant theology, that such an event is supposedly impossible and indeed, wicked.

Resorting to a non-literal “chronology” is powerless against it. Elijah is praying regarding a child whose soul has left him (the very definition of death), and whose soul returns, in answer to his prayer, as indicated by the next verse  (“and the soul of the child came into him again, and he revived”). Like I said last time: game, set, match (that’s a tennis term, for those unfamiliar with it). Maybe this is why Jason ignored this counter-argument of mine. If you have no cogent reply, you can either concede and retract, or ignore your opponent’s argument. Jason opted for the latter, lest he be embroiled in the horrifying and unthinkable circumstance — an existential crisis, in fact — of having to admit that a Catholic has the better exegetical argument.

One of the most well-known principles of biblical interpretation, or hermeneutics, is to interpret the less clear passages from the clear ones. I just did that by presenting 1 Kings 17:21-22. But Jason wants to do the opposite: ignore this crystal-clear verse (as he in effect does by refusing to exegete it) and draw a conclusion from mere speculation about less clear passages, involving the perpetually weak argument from silence logical fallacy. This impresses no one familiar with logic (I took a course in it, in college).

It’s the same dynamic in the similar passage where Elisha raises the dead, which Jason includes in his list (and which I also wrote out in my previous reply, for the convenience of my readers). Elisha “went up and lay upon the child, putting his mouth upon his mouth, his eyes upon his eyes, and his hands upon his hands; and as he stretched himself upon him, the flesh of the child became warm” (2 Kgs 4:34). I think it’s pretty clear that the latter clause is a synonym for “came to life.”

Jason’s other point is that touch is the key factor in play (it certainly is). But again, that tells us nothing about when prayers occurred, unless the text expressly informs us. Here is Jason’s argument (I actually want my readers to read opposing views, so they can better make up their minds):

In addition to that larger context related to resurrections and touching, notice that all three of the versions of the Luke 8 resurrection (found in each of the Synoptics) involve touching. In fact, Matthew’s account mentions the touching without mentioning Jesus’ comment to the girl. Since the touching is the common denominator in all three of these Synoptic passages, whereas Jesus’ comment isn’t even mentioned in Matthew’s account, the touching seems to be the most plausible candidate for the means by which the resurrection was brought about. And Mark and Luke mention the touching before mentioning Jesus’ comment, which suggests that the girl came back to life before Jesus spoke to her. Matthew’s account has Jairus saying that Jesus can resurrect his daughter by touch, saying, “lay your hand on her, and she will live” (9:18). That’s probably why Matthew only mentions the touching, without saying anything about Jesus’ comment to the girl. It was the touch that raised her from the dead.

Further support for that reading is found in the healing that’s narrated just before this resurrection in every one of the Synoptics. Jesus heals a woman with a hemorrhage when she touches his cloak. It would make sense for two miracles brought about through touching to be grouped together in each of the Synoptics. The fact that each of the Synoptic accounts in question is preceded by an account of healing through touch increases the likelihood that the touching is the means of the resurrection mentioned in the next account.

Jason mentions Matthew 9:25:

Matthew 9:25 But when the crowd had been put outside, he went in and took her by the hand, and the girl arose.

Catholics don’t have to deny that touch was a key component. It certainly was, but this doesn’t affect our argument as to prayer for the dead. This passage doesn’t include Jesus talking to her or praying for her, but the cross-reference (Lk 8:54-55) does. Matthew simply omits that part. The individual Gospels often don’t include every detail, or present different (but complementary) details, which we fully understand from reading all of them in harmony. Thus, we interpret the less explicit passage by the clearer one with more detail.

Luke includes these words. Jesus said, “Child, arise” and then the text states: “And her spirit returned.” Thus (since we believe in inspired, inerrant Scripture), we know what happened. Jesus simultaneously talked to the dead and prayed for the dead (that the person would rise from the dead). Protestants maintain that neither thing can or should occur. Then they have a huge problem, don’t they? Flatly disagreeing with Jesus is not a good place for any Christian to be. Another passage Jason mentions is more like Luke:

Mark 5:41-42 Taking her by the hand he said to her, “Tal’itha cu’mi”; which means, “Little girl, I say to you, arise.” [42] And immediately the girl got up and walked (she was twelve years of age), and they were immediately overcome with amazement.

This includes Jesus’ touch and then words which we would say constitute prayer for and in effect also to the dead. Jason, however, argues a thing that is absolutely absent from the text: that the girl had already been raised as soon as he touched her, then, by his saying “arise” she demonstrated to the onlookers that she was raised. I submit that this is not straightforward, common sense exegesis, and that it is, rather, eisegesis (reading into a text what isn’t there).

He argues from silence and sheer speculation, demanded by a prior predisposition; I argue from recourse to the cross-reference parallel text which is clearer and more explicit: “taking her by the hand he called, saying, ‘Child, arise.’ And her spirit returned” (Lk 8:54-55). See the two different methodologies of exegesis and hermeneutics? Which do you (dear reader) find more plausible? Make up your own mind. I have given you both sides of the argument: each from its proponent. That’s what I always do in debates. I assume the intelligence, open-mindedness, and critical capabilities of my readers (whatever their denominational affiliation). Jason provides another example of a raising:

Luke 7:14-15 And he came and touched the bier, and the bearers stood still. And he said, “Young man, I say to you, arise.” [15] And the dead man sat up, and began to speak. And he gave him to his mother.

Again, I submit that the straightforward, common-sense reading is that Jesus commanded the man to rise, then “the dead man sat up” and spoke. He prayed for him (a dead man) and spoke to him, and then he rose from the dead. But Jason would have it, — with no explicit evidence whatsoever — that he was raised already when Jesus spoke to him. This passage is interesting in that Jesus didn’t touch the dead person; He only touched the “bier” (a platform on which a coffin sits). So this doesn’t fit Jason’s proposed pattern, but it perfectly fits our interpretation and theology.

There’s not much more we can say about these matters. All we can really do at this point is appeal to prominent Protestant commentators, in order to see if they think these people were dead when Jesus talked to them and/or prayed for them to be risen, and if the immediate cause of His raising them was His touch or word. Here we go. Let’s take them in reverse order:

Luke 7:14-15

Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary: . . . with a word of command, bringing back life to the dead body . . .

Gill’s Exposition of the Entire Bible: and he said, young man, I say unto thee, arise. The Ethiopic version adds, “and he arose”: Christ spoke as one that had the keys of death and the grave; and divine power went along with his words, which raised the dead man to life . . .

Pulpit CommentaryYoung man, I say unto thee, Arise. The Lord of life performed his miracle over death in a very different fashion to those great ones who, in some respects, had anticipated or followed him in these strange deeds of wonder. Before they recalled the dead to life, Elijah mourned long over the sea of the widow of Sarepta, Elisha repeatedly stretched himself as he agonized in prayer upon the lifeless corpse of the Shunammite boy, Peter prayed very earnestly over the body of Dorcas at Lydda. The Master, with one solitary word, brings the spirit from its mysterious habitation back to its old earthly tenement – “K;m!” “Arise!”

Alford’s Greek Testament Critical Exegetical Commentary: All three raisings from the dead are wrought with words of power,—‘Damsel, arise,’—‘Young man, arise,’—‘Lazarus, come forth.’

Calvin’s Commentaries: Young man, I say to thee. By this word Christ proved the truth of the saying of Paul, that God calleth those things which are not, as they were, (Romans 4:17.) He addresses the dead man, and makes himself be heard, so that death is suddenly changed into life. We have here, in the first place, a striking emblem of the future resurrection, as Ezekiel is commanded to say, O ye dry bones, hear the word of the Lord, [37:4.] Secondly, we are taught in what manner Christ quickens us spiritually by faith. It is when he infuses into his word a secret power, so that it enters into dead souls, as he himself declares, The hour cometh, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God, and they who hear shall live, (John 5:25.)

This is from a web page that presents many Protestant commentaries. I can find none that take Jason’s interpretation. The ones that clearly state when and how the resurrection occurred agree with my position. John Calvin’s take is particularly striking and decisive and completely contrary to Jason’s position.

Mark 5:41-42

Ellicott’s Commentary for English Readers: Talitha cumi.—Here, as in the Ephphatha of Mark 7:34, the Evangelist gives the very syllables which had fallen from the lips of the Healer, and been proved to be words of power.

Bengel’s Gnomen: Talitha was used but once; for Jesus, in raising the dead, did not employ Epizeuxis [repetition of the same word; see Append.], Luke 7:14John 11:43. For His power was always instantaneous in its effect; comp. Numbers 20:11.—σοὶ λέγωI say unto thee). . .

Again, of the commentaries that took a definite stance on our issue, this is what I found. I couldn’t find any that agree with Jason. If there are some, I’m sure he will present them in his next “reply” to me, where I am not named. :-)

Matthew 9:25

Benson Commentary: As if he had been going to awake her out of sleep: and, with a gentle voice, but such as the persons in the chamber could easily hear, he said, Talitha cumi, which is, Damsel, arise. See Mark. And the maid arose — In an instant she revived and sat up, just like a person who, being called, awakes out of a soft sleep. Luke says, Her spirit came again; an expression which implies that she was really dead, and that the soul exists separately after the body dies . . .

Gill’s Exposition of the Entire Bible: His taking her by the hand, was not all that he did, but he called, as to a person asleep, and said unto her these words, “Talitha cumi”, as recorded by Mark, and are also in Munster’s Hebrew Gospel of Matthew; and which, in the Syriac language, signify, “maiden, arise”; and immediately, directly, as soon as ever he had thus said, the maid arose, as out of sleep; she revived, her soul came to her again, and she got off of the bed, and walked about house, and food was ordered to be given to her. All which most fully demonstrated that she was really restored to life, which was as clear a case, as that before she was really dead.

Note that these commentators incorporate Jesus’ words from parallel verses, even though they don’t appear in Matthew 9:25. That’s how importantly they take into account undoubted cross-references, because they believe in biblical inspiration and hence, internal harmony.

Calvin’s Commentaries: he proves the efficacy of the Gospel for quickening men from the fact, that at the last day he will raise the dead by his voice out of their graves.

It’s the same thing again: I can find no commentaries that reason as Jason does, and several that fully agree with my view. And remember, these are all Protestant sources, with no bias towards prayer for the dead.

Luke 8:54-55

Calvin’s Commentaries: It is easy to learn from this the great efficacy of the voice of Christ, which reaches even to the dead, and exerts a quickening influence on death itself. Accordingly, Luke says that her spirit returned, or, in other words, that immediately on being called, it obeyed the command of Christ.

Gill’s Exposition of the Entire Bible: And her spirit came again,…. Her soul, which was departed from her, upon the all-powerful voice of Christ, returned to her body; and “re-entered”, as the Ethiopic version adds: this shows that the soul is immortal, and dies not with the body; that it exists in a separate state from it after death, and will hereafter re-enter the body, and be again united to it in the resurrection . . .

Ditto . . .

Acts 9:40

Gill’s Exposition of the Entire Bible: and [Peter] kneeled down and prayed; it may be, as yet, he had not the mind of God in this matter, and therefore betook himself to prayer, in which he chose to be private and alone: and turning him to the body; the corpse of Dorcas, after he had prayed, and was well assured that the power of Christ would be exerted in raising of it: said, Tabitha, arise; which words were spoken in the name and faith of Christ, and were all one as, if Christ himself had spoken them; for to his power, and not to the apostles, is the following miracle to be ascribed: and she opened her eyes; which, upon her death, had been closed by her friends; . . .

Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges: Asking God that the consolation to be given to these mourners might be the restoration of the dead woman to life.

Calvin’s Commentaries: Turning towards the corpse. This seemeth also to be contrary to reason, that he speaketh unto a corpse without feeling; but this speaking unto the dead corpse was one point of the vehemency whereunto the Spirit of God enforced Peter. And if any man desire a reason, this form of speech doth more lively express the power of God in raising the dead, than if it should be said in the third person, let this body receive life again and live. Therefore, when as Ezekiel doth shadow the deliverance of the people under a figure of the resurrection: “O dead bones,” (saith he,) “hear the word of the Lord,” (Ezekiel 37:4.) And Christ saith, “The time shall come when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God,” (John 5:25.) For this was indeed the voice of Christ, which was uttered by the mouth of Peter, and gave [back] breath to the body of Tabitha. The circumstances following serve to confirm the certainty of the miracle.

Ditto.

I rest my case, as to exegesis and [Protestant] biblical commentary.

Prayer to God is mentioned explicitly and frequently from Genesis onward. The lack of references to praying to the deceased is best explained by a lack of the practice, including in the timeframe leading up to and just after the Luke 8 passage.

Now Jason is trying to defend his predisposition that he brings to this issue: that no one prayed for the dead or even talked to them. This, too, is false. Jesus taught in Luke 16 that the rich man who was dead and in Hades, prayed to the dead Abraham; making both a petition and an intercessory request. Abraham turns him down (just as God declines some prayers), but never says that he shouldn’t ask him these things (as he was bound to do if Jason is right). The usual reply is that this is a parable, and as such, irrelevant. But that won’t do. Parables never include proper names, as this story does.

But even if we grant that it’s a parable, this attempted “escape” from its implications accomplishes nothing, since Jesus couldn’t have taught falsehood and theological error in it. Parables are for moral and theological instruction. No parable contains, for example, admonitions to lust or murder or greed. They cannot and could not do so, for that would be leading people astray and calling evil good. Therefore, even if Lazarus and the rich man is regarded as a parable, Jesus couldn’t teach the false theology (assuming Protestant premises for the sake of argument) of asking a dead man to answer a petition and intercessory request. The fact that He did do so is proof that the thing is correct and permissible. As an extra bonus it comes eight chapters after the disputed passage in Luke 8.

– The Old Testament prohibitions of attempting to contact the deceased include references to consulting mediums and such, but also use language broad enough to include praying to the deceased. I’ve discussed those passages elsewhere, and they suggest that Jesus wouldn’t have prayed to the dead or intended his comments in these resurrection passages to be taken as warrant for praying to the deceased.

This is the usual collapsing of all invocation of the saints or any talking to the dead whatever as necromancy or other forbidden occultic practice. I dealt with this in my article: Invocation of the Saints = Necromancy? [10-18-08].

As with Luke 8, it’s helpful to look at the account that’s just before the one in question in Acts 9. In the healing that occurs just before the resurrection in Acts 9, Peter says, “Aeneas, Jesus Christ heals you; get up and make your bed.” (verse 34) The verse then says the man got up, as instructed. Obviously, the man couldn’t get up and make his bed while he was paralyzed. Rather, Peter is arranging for a demonstration that a healing has already occurred.

And once again, the straightforward (and I would add, obvious) interpretation is that he was healed by Peter’s word. John Calvin, in his Commentaries, wrote about Acts 9:34:

Jesus Christ maketh thee whole. It is certain that the apostles would never have attempted the doing of miracles, unless they had been first certified of the will of God, whereupon the effect did depend. For they had no such power of the Spirit given them that they could heal whatsoever sick persons they would; but as Christ himself used a measure in his miracles, so he would have his apostles to work no more than he knew were profitable. Therefore Peter did not rashly break out into these words; because he might have set himself to be laughed at, unless he had already known the will of God. It may be that he prayed apart. The Spirit who was the author of all miracles, and which wrought by the hand of Peter, did even then direct his tongue, and did move his heart by a secret inspiration. And in these words Peter showeth plainly that he is only the minister of the miracle, and that it proceedeth from the power of Christ; that he may by this means extol the name of Christ alone.

The same is likely occurring in the next account, the one we’re focused on here. Tabitha is being told to arise in the sense of moving her body to demonstrate that she’s already been raised from the dead. She’s described as doing so in verse 40 (“she sat up”), after which Peter “raised her up” (verse 41). In one of my previous posts, I cited the example of Lazarus in John 11:43-44, who’s told to “come forth”, then is described as coming forth from the tomb. He wasn’t being told to come forth from death. Rather, he was being told to come forth from the tomb after a resurrection that occurred earlier (probably what Jesus was referring to when he thanked the Father for having heard him in verse 41, meaning that the resurrection had already occurred before Jesus said “come forth”). That seems to be what’s going on in all of these resurrection passages.

So, why does Acts 9:40 refer to how Peter turned to “the body”, as if the woman was still dead? Luke referred to the resurrected son of the widow of Nain as “the dead man” after he had come back to life, in the process of describing his sitting up and speaking (Luke 7:15). Maybe Luke did that to highlight the significance of the fact that a person who had died was involved. Luke may be doing the same thing in Acts 9:40. That would be unusual, which is problematic, but the alternative under consideration here is of an unusual, problematic nature as well. If Tabitha was still dead when Peter spoke to her, then his turning to her is unusual, since we usually don’t turn to a body to speak to somebody whose spirit has left her body. It would be like turning to your left to speak to somebody standing at your right. Either scenario under consideration here is unusual and, therefore, problematic to some extent. It’s not as though a scenario in which Tabitha is alive when Peter turns to her body is the only one that involves any such unusualness.

More importantly, though, the view that Tabitha was alive when Peter spoke to her doesn’t require that she was alive when the reference is made to “the body”. She could have returned to life between Peter’s turning and the start of his comment to Tabitha or at the same time that he spoke to her. Either of those scenarios would simultaneously avoid an unusual use of the phrase “the body” and avoid the problems involved in Peter’s speaking to a dead woman. One possible scenario is that Peter had, by whatever means, discerned that God had granted his prayer request that Tabitha be resurrected, after which he turned to the body to look for an indication that she had returned to life (by seeing her breathing again, for example), at which point he spoke to her. Or maybe God had revealed to Peter that she would return to life as he spoke to her, meaning that the return to life and the start of the speaking were simultaneous. I see no way to demonstrate that the resurrection didn’t occur until after Peter spoke or began to speak.

This is all desperate special pleading, in my opinion, based on nothing directly expressed in the texts (or even inexorably deduced from them). It’s an argument from silence. I’ve already refuted it via exegesis of the texts. In every case where there is actually enough information to actually decisively allow or determine a fuller interpretation, it is in favor of the Catholic position, as shown. But Jason’s reply gets even weirder:

But what if, for the sake of argument, we granted the view that Jesus and Peter spoke to deceased individuals in these passages? What would follow? We’d still have to explain the problems with praying to the dead that I outlined in my discussion of Luke 8. One potential way of addressing those problems would be to propose that Jesus and Peter held the common ancient Jewish view that spirits of the deceased remain near their body for some number of days after death (Francois Bovon, Luke 1 [Minneapolis, Minnesota: Fortress Press, 2002], 340). That could mean that the deceased individuals were viewed as still being part of life on earth, sort of like Samuel’s return to earthly life in 1 Samuel 28 and the return of Moses and Elijah on the Mount of Transfiguration.

I see. So the ancient Jews held that “spirits of the deceased remain near their body for some number of days after death.” “Days” is one thing, but many centuries? Moses appeared at the Transfiguration more than 1200 years after he died. Elijah (a mere spring chicken, still wet behind the ears) would have been dead some 875 years when he appeared. They both talked to Jesus (and theoretically could have possibly talked to the disciples, too, I submit). But beyond all that, Jesus was omniscient. He knew whether this alleged “common ancient Jewish view was correct or not. The evangelists say that He talked to Moses and Elijah, and Jesus Himself taught that a dead man, Abraham, could properly receive petitions and intercessory requests (i.e., prayers). Jason has to grapple with all that, rather than introduce a desperate “Hail Mary pass” such as the above, as a supposed solid last-ditch “reply.”

But the scenario I’m referring to here illustrates how something like the Roman Catholic or Eastern Orthodox practice of praying to the saints wouldn’t follow even if we were (wrongly) convinced that Jesus and Peter spoke to the dead in these resurrection passages.

I’m sure that is what Jason would love to think. The fact remains that Jesus and Peter (and Elijah and Elisha) praying for and talking to the dead perfectly harmonizes with Catholic teaching, and fatally clashes with Protestant “dogma.” Jason knows this, which is why he is fighting so hard, but alas, with very weak arguments from silence. He knows the stakes are high, but this is all he can come up with. And he delivers up one more frail attempt before concluding:

Another possibility – for those who think that Jesus probably spoke to the dead in one or more of the relevant passages, but that Peter probably didn’t (or are agnostic about the passage involving Peter) – is that Jesus’ deity allowed him to do what the rest of us can’t. That would explain Jesus’ behavior in the passage(s) in question while simultaneously being consistent with the evidence against prayers to the dead in other contexts.

Peter was basically imitating what Jesus did when He raised the dead, and the prophets Elijah and Eisha anticipated our Lord’s miracles. Jesus said, “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do, because I go to the Father” (Jn 14:12). Note the striking word “greater.” These works included raising the dead:

Matthew 10:5-8 These twelve Jesus sent out, charging them, “Go nowhere among the Gentiles, and enter no town of the Samaritans, [6] but go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. [7] And preach as you go, saying, `The kingdom of heaven is at hand.’ [8] Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse lepers, cast out demons. . . .

Obviously, when they did that, they would have followed Jesus’ example and model, which included talking to the dead that He raised (Lk 8:54; Jn 11:43) and prayer preceding raising the dead (Jn 11:41-42): both of which Peter imitated (Acts 9:40). Paul also prayed before he performed a healing: “Paul visited him and prayed, and putting his hands on him healed him” (Acts 28:8). They would have also been familiar with the stories of Elijah and Elisha, who were mere creatures as they were. So this “argument” doesn’t fly. It doesn’t even have any “wings” to fly with.

I tell you, Catholic apologetics is easy as pie, with arguments this weak and fragile to contend with from the other side.

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Photo credit: Cornelis Bloemaert II (1603-1692): The revival of Tabita by the apostle Peter [public domain / Look and Learn: History Picture Archive]

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Summary: Protestant apologist Jason Engwer contends that Jesus, Peter, Elijah, & Elisha never made prayers to & for the dead before raising them from the dead. Wrong!

2023-03-16T19:43:06-04:00

. . . In Which Dr. Salmon Accuses Cardinal Newman of Lying Through His Teeth in His Essay on Development, & Dr. Murphy Magnificently Defends Infallibility and Doctrinal Development Against Gross Caricature


The book, The Infallibility of the Church (1888) by Anglican anti-Catholic polemicist George Salmon (1819-1904), may be one of the most extensive and detailed — as well as influential — critiques of the Catholic Church ever written. But, as usual with these sorts of works, it’s abominably argued and relentlessly ignorant and/or dishonest, as the critique below will amply demonstrate and document.

The most influential and effective anti-Catholic Protestant polemicist today, “Dr” [???] James White, cites Salmon several times in his written materials, and regards his magnum opus as an “excellent” work. In a letter dated 2 November 1959, C. S. Lewis recommended the book to an inquirer who was “vexed” about papal infallibility. Russell P. Spittler, professor of New Testament at Fuller Theological Seminary, wrote that “From an evangelical standpoint,” the book “has been standard since first published in 1888” (Cults and Isms, Baker Book House, 1973, 117). Well-known Baptist apologist Edward James Carnell called it the “best answer to Roman Catholicism” in a 1959 book. I think we can safely say that it is widely admired among theological (as well as “emotional”) opponents of the Catholic Church.

Prominent Protestant apologist Norman Geisler and his co-author Ralph MacKenzie triumphantly but falsely claim, in a major critique of Catholicism, Roman Catholics and Evangelicals: Agreements and Differences (Grand Rapids, Michigan: Baker Books, 1995, 206-207, 459), that Salmon’s book has “never really been answered by the Catholic Church,” and call it the “classic refutation of papal infallibility,” which also offers “a penetrating critique of Newman’s theory.”
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Salmon’s tome, however, has been roundly refuted at least twice: first, by Rev. Dr. Jeremiah Murphy in The Irish Ecclesiastical Record (March / May / July / September / November 1901 and January / March 1902): a response (see the original sources) — which I’ve now transcribed almost in its totality — which was more than 73,000 words, or approximately 257 pages; secondly, by Bishop Basil Christopher Butler (1902-1986) in his book, The Church and Infallibility: A Reply to the Abridged ‘Salmon’ (1954, 230 pages). See all of these replies — and further ones that I make — listed under “George Salmon” on my Anti-Catholicism web page. But no Protestant can say that no Catholic has adequately addressed (and refuted) the egregious and ubiquitous errors in this pathetic book. And we’ll once again see how few (if any) Protestants dare to counter-reply to all these critiques.
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See other installments of the series:

Irish Ecclesiastical Record vs. Anti-Catholic George Salmon, Pt. 1 [3-10-23]

Irish Ecclesiastical Record vs. Anti-Catholic George Salmon, Pt. 3 . . . In Which Our Sophist-Critic Massively Misrepresents Cardinal Newman and Utterly Misunderstands the Distinction Between Implicit and Explicit Faith [3-12-23]

Irish Ecclesiastical Record vs. Anti-Catholic George Salmon, Pt. 4 . . . In Which Dr. Salmon Sadly Reveals Himself to be a Hyper-Rationalistic Pelagian Heretic, and Engages in Yet More Misrepresentation of Development of Doctrine and Cardinal Newman’s Statements and Positions [3-15-23]

Irish Ecclesiastical Record vs. Anti-Catholic George Salmon, Pt. 5: Private Judgment, the Rule of Faith, and Dr. Salmon’s Weak Fallible Protestant “Church”: Subject to the Whims of Individuals; Church Fathers Misquoted [3-15-23]

Irish Ecclesiastical Record vs. Anti-Catholic George Salmon, Pt. 6: The Innumerable Perils of Perspicuity of Scripture and Private Judgment [3-16-23]

Irish Ecclesiastical Record vs. Anti-Catholic George Salmon, Pt. 7 [3-16-23]

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Vol. IX: May 1901
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Dr. Salmon’s ‘Infallibility’ (Part 2)
Rev. Dr. Jeremiah Murphy, D.D.
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[I have made a few paragraph breaks not found in the original. Citations in smaller font are instead indented, and all of Dr. Salmon’s words will be in blue. Words of St. John Henry Cardinal Newman will be in green]
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Dr. Salmon’s second lecture is on ‘The Cardinal Importance of the Question of Infallibility.’ ‘The truth is,’ he says, ‘that the issues of the controversy mainly turn on one great question, which is the only one that I expect to be able to discuss with you: I mean the question of the Infallibility of the Church. If that be decided against us, our whole case is gone’ (page 17). And the book itself is named The Infallibility of the Church: and yet, in the opening sentence of the twenty-second lecture (page 424) he says, ‘the question of the Infallibility of the Pope is that with which I am directly concerned in this course of lectures.’ This is an ordinary instance of the confusion that is manifested, all through Dr. Salmon’s book; and, even without studying the volume, one may safely infer, that the Infallibility of either Church or Pope, is not likely to suffer much from the attack of one, who really does not know which of the two he is assailing.

Random shooting of this sort is not likely to be effective. Perhaps, however, it was his keen attention to our movements that made him so oblivious of his own; and notwithstanding the indefiniteness of his aim, he is sanguine of success. We are, according to him, impervious to argument; continually changing our ground; retreating from one post to another; and our present condition, he says, is this: ‘The Romish champions, beaten out of the open field, have shut themselves up in this fortress of Infallibility, where, as long as their citadel remains untaken, they can defy all assaults’ (page 46). Our fate is, however, sealed; for he says: —

But, though it is on the first view, disappointing, that our adversaries should withdraw themselves into a position, seemingly inaccessible to argument, it is really, as I shall presently show, a mark of our success, that they have been driven from the open field and forced to betake themselves into this fortress. And we have every encouragement to follow them and assault their citadel, which is now their last refuge (page 24).

And the Doctor contemplates with delight, the prospect of our immediate annihilation, saying: — ‘This simplification then of the controversy realises for us the wish of the Roman tyrant, that all his enemies had but one neck. If we can but strike one blow the whole battle is won’ (page 18). Dr. Salmon is in a very heroic state of mind; and, as he is a veteran in the service, his students must have expected wonderful results, when he is let loose on the Catholic Church. Well, the siege has gone on for a long time, and the fortress bolds out defiantly still. No flag of truce has been raised, no signal of distress has been seen. And Dr. Salmon may rest assured, that when he shall have been gathered to his fathers, and his book quite forgotten, that fortress will still stand secure. She has a higher warrant than Dr. Salmon’s to ensure her triumph over the gates of hell.

Dr. Salmon has a theory of the Church, which, if he could only establish it on a solid basis, would save him a great deal of labour, and would completely remove the necessity of disproving Infallibility. He sees no reason why the Church should not be a plastic institution which would change with the times, and adapt itself to the habits of good society. He says: —

May it not be supposed for example that He (God) wisely ordained that the constitution of His Church should receive modifications, to adapt it to the changing exigencies of society; that in times when no form of government but monarchy was to he seen anywhere, it was necessary, if His Church was to make head successfully against the prevalent reign of brute force, that all its powers should he concentrated in a single hand: but that when, with the general spread of knowledge, men refused to give unreasoning submission to authority, and claimed the right to exercise some judgment of their own, in the conduct of their affairs, the constitution of the Church needed to be altered in order to bring it into harmony with the political structure of modern society (pages 40, 41).

Again: —

Let us liberally grant, that an ecclesiastical monarchy was the form of government best adapted to the needs of the Church at the time, when, in temporal matters, the whole civilized world was governed by a single ruler; and yet it might be utterly unfit for her requirements, in subsequent times, when Europe had been broken up into independent kingdoms; and we might be as right now, in disowning Papal authority as our ancestors wore in submitting to it (page 369).

This is none of your cast-iron Romanism, but an up-to-date progressive Church, marching hand in hand with civilization, and never offending against good manners by insisting on any definite articles of faith as necessary conditions of membership. Such a weather-cock Church would be sufficiently fallible to satisfy even Dr. Salmon and his pupils, and would have the unique advantage of showing that they are as right in rejecting Catholic doctrines as their ancestors were in professing them. On reading such passages one is forcibly reminded of St. Hilary’s indignant exclamation (Ad Const) — 0, tu sceleste quod ludibrium de Ecclesia fads? [“0, you are a criminal who makes fun of the Church?”]

Dr. Salmon is quite right in insisting on the ‘cardinal importance of the question of Infallibility.’ If the Church be infallible, that doctrine is a sufficient warrant for the truth of every other doctrine she teaches; and discussion on details becomes needless, and Catholics, who believe that doctrine, accept the Church’s teaching without the slightest difficulty or hesitation. But Dr. Salmon is not content with a priori considerations of the importance of the doctrine. He says: —

I should have been convinced of it from the history of the Roman Catholic controversy, as it has been conducted in my own lifetime. When I first came to an age to take a lively interest in the subject, Dr. Newman and his coadjutors, were publishing, in the Tracts for the Times [link], excellent refutations of the Roman doctrine on Purgatory, and on some other important points. A very few years afterwards without making the slightest attempt to answer their own arguments, these men went over to Rome, and bound them selves to believe, and teach as true, things which they had them selves proved to be false. . . . While the writers of the Tracts were assailing with success different points of Roman teaching, they allowed themselves to be persuaded, that Christ must have provided His people with some infallible guide to truth; and they accepted the Church of Rome as that guide, with scarcely an attempt to make a careful scrutiny of the grounds of her pretensions (pages 18, 19).

This unconditional surrender, Dr. Salmon attributes to the craving for an infallible guide, and ‘the craving for an infallible guide arises from men’s consciousness of the weakness of their understanding’ (page 47). It would be amusing if the matter had not been so serious to find Dr. Salmon charging Newman, Ward, Oakley, and Dalgairns, with ‘weakness of understanding,’ with going over to Rome ‘without making the smallest attempt to answer their own arguments’ against her, and with ‘scarcely an attempt to make a careful scrutiny of the grounds of her pretensions.’ Dr. Salmon frequently refers to Newman’s Essay on Development, and he may, therefore, be presumed to have read it; and on the very first page of it he could have seen a statement of the writer’s objections to Rome, and immediately following it are these words: —  ‘He little thought, when he so wrote, that the time would ever come, when he should feel the obstacle, which he spoke of as lying in the way of communion with the Church of Rome, to be destitute of solid foundation.’

Therefore, before Dr. Newman joined the Catholic Church he satisfied himself that his arguments against her were ‘destitute of solid foundation,’ though according to Dr. Salmon he did not make ‘the smallest attempt to answer’ them. Again, on the last page of the Essay, after his magnificent analysis of Patristic teaching, Newman says: ‘Such were the thoughts concerning the “Blessed Vision of Peace,” of one whose long-continued petition had been, that the Most Merciful would not despise the work of His own hands, nor leave him to himself: — while yet his eyes were dim, and his breast laden, and he could but employ reason in the things of Faith.’ And after a like analysis, in the twelfth of his Lectures on Anglican Difficulties, Newman says: —

What was the use of continuing the controversy, or defending my position, if, after all, I was but forging arguments for Arius and Eutyches, and turning devil’s advocate against the much-enduring Athanasius, and the majestic Leo? Be my soul with the saints! and shall I lift up my hand against them? Sooner may my right hand forget her cunning, and wither outright as his who once stretched it out against a prophet of God: — perish sooner a whole tribe of Cranmers, Ridleys, Latimers, and Jewels — perish the names of Bramhall, Usher, Taylor, Stillingfleet and Barrow, from the face of the earth — ere I should do aught but fall at their feet, in love, and in worship, whose image was continually before my eyes, and whose musical words were ever in my ears, and on my tongue (page 306).

To charge the writer of these magnificent passages — the writer of the Apologia — who had for years devoted all the energy of a giant mind to the earnest pursuit of truth — to charge such a man with going over blindly to Rome without an attempt to answer his own arguments against her, or to examine her claims — is a specimen of recklessness, all the more extraordinary in such a theologian as the writer of these lectures. But he has a much graver charge against Dr. Newman. In a note at page 22, he says: —

I never meant to impute to Newman insincerity in his profession of belief.

But how are we to understand the following?

When Dr. Newman became a Roman Catholic it was necessary for him, in some way, to reconcile this step with the proofs that he had previously given that certain distinctive Romish doctrines were unknown to the early Church. This is the object of the celebrated Essay on the Development of Christian Doctrine, which he published simultaneously with his submission to the Roman Church (page 31). . . . The book having been written before he had yet joined them (page 33).

Now, whatever Dr. Salmon meant by the words quoted, any ordinary reader will take them to mean, that, Dr. Newman had accepted all the teaching of the Catholic Church — had become a convinced Catholic — but that he felt that some justification of his conduct was rendered necessary, by his previous career, and that in order to provide this justification he wrote the Essay on Development,  and published it simultaneously with his public reception into the Church, though he had been during the time of its composition a Catholic on conviction — not publicly, for he had not yet made his public submission, but secretly. This is the meaning of Dr. Salmon’s words. ‘When Dr. Newman became a Roman Catholic it was necessary,’ etc., therefore he was a ‘Roman Catholic,’ at least secretly, before the necessity arose for justifying his action. ‘This is the object of the essay’ etc., therefore while he was engaged in providing this justification he was a Catholic, at least secretly; and when he had his justification ready, he published it, and made his public submission to the Roman Church simultaneously.

This is the ordinary logical meaning of Dr. Salmon’s words, and if there be not a charge of ‘insincerity in the profession of belief’ conveyed by them, words have no meaning. But the charge was answered, once for all, and it is amazing that the spectre of Kingsley, on the pillory, should not have made Dr. Salmon more cautious. Dr. Newman, then, did not leave his own arguments against the Church unanswered — he pronounced them to be ‘destitute of solid foundation,’ like those of the ‘devil’s advocate’; he did not go over to Rome without inquiry; he devoted to the inquiry many years of hard study, and of constant prayer. One would expect that, as Dr. Salmon undertook to convince his students of the cardinal importance of the doctrine of Infallibility, he would have explained the doctrine to them. They could not know its importance unless they knew what it really was.

And, moreover, as he professed to be training them to refute the doctrine, he should have told them what it was. But, instead of doing so, he devotes a very long lecture to a series of mis-statements, well calculated to intensify their ignorance of Catholic teaching, and to strengthen their prejudices against the Catholic Church. Had he put the doctrine clearly and correctly before them, any student of average ability could have seen for himself that the professor’s declamation left it untouched. He said to them: ‘An infallible Church does not mean a Church which makes no mistakes, but only one which will neither acknowledge its mistakes nor correct them’ (page 111). There was no necessity for devoting twenty-three lectures to proving the fallibility of such a Church. It is openly proclaimed. But the teaching of the Catholic Church is not so easily disposed of; and in order to put that teaching clearly before him, it is necessary to call Dr. Salmon’s attention to a few facts that ought to be regarded as first principles by anyone who accepts the New Testament as a truthful record.

When our Blessed Redeemer came amongst us, He proved His divinity, the reality of His divine mission, and the consequent truth of His doctrines, by a series of extraordinary miracles, and by prophecies fulfilled in Him, and spoken by Him, and subsequently verified. For those who witnessed His miracles, and yet rejected His doctrines, there was no reasonable excuse; and He Himself frequently said so. He gathered
to Himself a number of disciples, — the nucleus of His Church — and out of the number, He selected some whom He trained specially to be the future teachers of that Church. He did not write a book which they were to study in order to learn His doctrines. He Himself, in person, taught them orally. In proof of the truth of His teaching, He frequently appealed to the works which He had done; and He exacted from His followers, full unconditional faith in His doctrine, and obedience to His moral precepts; and this faith and obedience, He exacted as a necessary condition of salvation.

This system of oral, personal teaching, our Lord continued during His earthly career; and when that career was about to close He commissioned His Apostles to continue His work and His method as well. He gave them His own authority, and sent them forth to teach as His ambassadors. They were to continue His mission, — that which He had got from His Eternal Father, — and the Holy Ghost was to be with them to ensure their success; and He promised that signs and wonders, even greater than His own, would confirm their mission. And after our Lord’s ascension, we find the Apostles carrying out their commission, both in its matter and in its manner, exactly as they were commanded. They went forth teaching the truths that bad been revealed to them; they represented themselves as His legates, teaching His doctrine, manifesting His power. The miracles they performed were, they said openly, not performed by any power of their own, but by His power and in His name.

They did not write books and hand them to their disciples to be studied by them in order to learn the truths of faith. Few of them wrote anything, and the Church was well established, and widely diffused, before any of them wrote a line at all. Like their Divine Master they taught orally, personally, the truths of faith; and like Him, too, and in His name, they exacted from their followers faith in their teaching and obedience to their moral precepts. And this obedience of faith, too, they exacted as an absolutely necessary condition of salvation. Not for any words of their own, but for God’s Word revealed to them, did the Apostles demand acceptance and faith; and they gave abundant proof of their divine commission to teach in His name; nor did they tolerate amongst their followers a rejection of any portion of their teaching, or any divergence from it. Thus, then, the first Christians believed the Word of God on the authority of God Himself; and that authority was brought home to them by ambassadors divinely commissioned to do so, and divinely assisted in doing so.

The teaching authority of the Apostles imposed on their followers the obligation of believing; the obedience of faith. There was thus an authoritative teaching body established, and the members of the Church accepted, and were bound to accept, from that teaching body the truths of faith, and moral principles, and the explanations of both. Thus was God’s Kingdom on earth established; supernatural in its origin, for it is founded by God Himself; supernatural in its life, the Spirit of God working in it through faith and grace; and supernatural in its end, which is God’s glory and man’s salvation. The kingdoms of this world change with time and die away; the kingdom of today may become the republic of tomorrow, and the pandemonium of some day in the near future. Not so the Kingdom of God. Like the mustard-seed in the Gospel, it becomes the widespreading tree, giving shelter to all that seek it; but its identity remains. It is ever the same — a living, active teaching body, and such it shall continue till its mission shall have been accomplished. When the Christian faith was for some time established, and already widely spread, the Gospels were written, giving our Lord’s personal history and some of His teachings.

The Epistles, too, were written, called forth by special circumstances, and fragmentary in doctrine. They were so far instruments of Revelation in the custody of the Church, which lived and taught as before. This was the system, the method of teaching and propagating the faith, adopted by our Lord, and continued by His Apostles. It is, therefore, the Christian method and system, and there is not in Christian antiquity the slightest grounds for any departure from that system. Such as it was, it was our Lord’s institution, and men could not change it; and such a departure from it as would strip the teaching Church of her authority, and condemn her to silence, and would substitute, as sole source and sole teacher of faith, a written book that is dumb and speaks not — such a change would be a subversion of our Lord’s institution, would be anti-Christian, a triumph for the ‘gates of hell.’

We, therefore, believe that the entire body of Revelation, the entire, complete deposit of faith, was entrusted by our Lord to His Church; that he made her its guardian, interpreter, and teacher; and that, in her office as such, He promised efficaciously to protect her against error or failure till the end of time. In virtue of this promise the Church is infallible; that is, she is exempt not merely from actual error, but from the possibility of error, in believing and in teaching the divine deposit of faith. The Christian Revelation terminated with the Apostles, and the deposit of faith comprises all that was revealed to them, and nothing that was not revealed to them. It can receive no addition; it can suffer no diminution; it is in the Church’s keeping; and she is its infallible custodian’ and teacher. The Church may be considered as a body of believers, embracing both the teachers and the taught, but regarding them as believers; and, so regarded, the Church is infallible in believing the whole deposit of faith. Whatever it believes to be of faith is so certainly, and whatever it rejects as opposed to faith is so with equal certainty.

It is thus a witness to the fact of Revelation in this sense, that the universal belief of any doctrine by the Church, as revealed, is a proof that the doctrine was revealed. This is called passive infallibility, because the Church, so regarded, does not raise its voice in controversy; its teaching must be gathered from it by the teaching body — the Ecclesia Docens. The Infallibility of the Church, in this sense, Dr. Salmon does not discuss, and it shall be alluded to only briefly here. The doctrine is clearly contained in the celebrated text of St. Matthew xvi. 18: ‘Thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build My Church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.’ This text, and many others bearing on the subject, have been beautifully developed by Dr. Murray in his admirable work De Ecclesia. In that work Dr. Salmon will find the arguments for our doctrine fully and ably stated, and had he read it, before delivering his lectures, he would have been able, if willing, to give his students a more accurate conception of the work before them in ‘the controversy with Rome.’

Nothing can be more certain than that our Lord wished that His doctrines should be preserved pure, and perpetuated in their purity. Often did He warn his disciples against false teachers — the leaven of the Pharisees, the Father of Lies, and his agents; and He promised them the Spirit of Truth to preserve them from error. The spirit of their Divine Master animated the Apostles also; and we find them always jealously guarding against any deflection from revealed truth. Even St. John, the Apostle of Charity, forbade his followers to speak to a believer in false doctrine. Therefore, belief in true doctrine, in its integrity and purity, must have been a vital principle of the Church; and any betrayal of truth, rejecting a true doctrine as false or accepting a false doctrine as true, would have made the Church the prey of her great enemy. But, according to St. Matthew the prey of her enemy the Church shall never be. The text speaks of the Church which our Lord was to establish, and contemplates it as a spiritual edifice of the highest degree of stability.

Its foundation is the immovable rock. Its Architect is infinite in wisdom and in power; and the purpose of its construction, one dearest to Him — to serve as a home for His chosen followers, and as a treasury for the blessings He was to leave them. Therefore must it be permanently secured against sudden destruction or gradual decay. Enemies of the most formidable kind were to assail it— in vain. Amongst the worst, the most deadly of these enemies is heresy, that would poison the source of the Church’s life. Were heresy to prevail against the Church, were she to disbelieve a true doctrine, or profess a false one, her Founder’s solemn promise would have been falsified, and Satan would have gained the victory which, according to the promise, never can be won.

This passive infallibility of the body of believers presupposes the active infallibility of the teaching body — the Ecclesia Docens. The Ecclesia Audiens is bound to accept the doctrine of the teaching body; and in its divinely guaranteed fidelity in doing so, its own infallibility consists. This active infallibility — infallibility in teaching — has a twofold seat in the Church. It exists in the body of bishops united with their head — the Pope — whether assembled in a general council or dispersed throughout the world’s wide extent; and it exists also in the Pope himself, when teaching officially, ex cathedra. Each is an article of faith, and if Dr. Salmon could disprove either, or disprove any article of faith so held, he would have simplified the controversy for his students very considerably. But he has not done so, nor even made a clever attempt to do so. He has but reproduced the old stock-in-trade of Protestant controversialists; and that, too, without rising above the usual level of such disputants. And, as already stated, he has so confused the Infallibility of Church and Pope that he does not seem to know which he is assailing. For clearness’ sake the doctrine shall then be kept distinct; thus the interests of truth will be better served, though more labour will be incurred in making order out of Dr. Salmon’s chaotic book.

The bishops of the Catholic Church, in union with the Pope, their head, whether assembled in a collected body or dispersed throughout the world, constitute the teaching body — the Ecclesia Docens — and that teaching body is infallible. This body is the infallible guardian, interpreter, and teacher of the entire deposit of faith, and of all that appertains to faith and morals; and the infallible judge of every controversy in which faith or morals are involved. Whatever it declares to be revealed, and of faith, is so certainly; and whatever it declares to be opposed to faith, or inconsistent with it, is so, with equal certainty; and in virtue of its Founder’s promise it shall continue to fulfil its divine mission as guardian, judge, and teacher of revelation till the end of time. And though the teaching Church is concerned directly with the deposit of faith, its authority extends indirectly to many things not contained in that deposit. As custodian of the faith the Church preserves her precious charge from all admixture of error, and so she detects and condemns those systems and doctrines that aim at impairing the purity of the deposit of faith. It is the shepherd’s duty not merely to feed his flock, but also to ward off the wolf from the fold.

This gift of Infallibility differs very much from Inspiration; though Dr. Salmon either intentionally or inadvertently confounds them, and, as a consequence, makes some very silly charges against us. Inspiration is the direct action of the Holy Spirit on the mind of the writer or speaker, moving him to write or speak; suggesting to him what to write or speak, and often even how to do so. The inspired teacher then is under the direct influence of the Holy Ghost moving him to write or teach what God wills him to write or teach. Infallibility is a much lower gift. The infallible teacher as such receives no interior revelation or suggestion from God. He is under no direct divine influence to teach. The Holy Ghost does not dictate to him what to say or how to say it. It is only his external utterances that are controlled, so that when he does teach officially, he can teach nothing that is not true. He is preserved from error in his teaching by a supernatural providence, an exterior over-ruling guidance of the Holy Ghost. What the inspired teacher says is the Word of God Himself, and is either a new revelation or a divine statement of a truth already known. What the infallible teacher says is a true declaration or explanation of a revelation already made. This is what we mean by the Infallibility of the Church. But Dr. Salmon of course knows our doctrine much better than we ourselves do, and in a note at page 43, he says: —

A Roman Catholic critic accuses me of forgetting that the Catholic claim is not inspiration, but only inerrancy. I consider the latter far the stronger word. In popular language the word ‘inspired,’ is sometimes used in speaking of the works of a great genius, who is not supposed to be exempt from error, but no one can imagine the utterances of a naturally fallible man to be guaranteed against possibility of error, unless he believes that man to be speaking not of his own mind, but as the inspired organ of the Holy Spirit.

This is very clever. Now Dr. Salmon in his Introduction to the New Testament, speaks of its inspiration. Does he use the word there as it is used in ‘popular language’? Ah, no. If he had so used it, there would be an end of the inspiration of the New Testament Scripture. He uses it then as a technical theological term, in its proper sense, to enable him to defend the truth of Scripture (though he does not, and on his principles cannot prove the inspiration), but he uses it here in its ‘popular’ sense — a false sense — to enable him to attribute false doctrines to us. ‘I consider it,’ he says, ‘the stronger word’ — yes; if it be taken in a false sense. And in any case, that he should ‘consider it the stronger word,’ is not a conclusive proof that it is so.

The Infallibility of the teaching Church in the sense here explained Catholics believe as an article of faith. According to Dr. Salmon our great argument for this doctrine is its necessity. ‘The great argument by which men are persuaded to believe, that there is at least somewhere or another an infallible guide, is that it is incredible that God should leave us without sure guidance when our eternal salvation is at stake’ (page 97). Now, so far from this being our ‘great argument’ it is not, in the sense indicated by Dr. Salmon, an argument at all. God could have remedied our shortcomings in many ways besides by the appointment of an infallible guide — even supposing He was bound to remedy them at all. And, again, the creed for which Dr. Salmon says we profess to require an infallible guide, is only a very small fraction of our creed, and for arriving at sufficient knowledge of the few articles contained in it, God might have provided in various ways.

But on the supposition that Christ established a Church, to which he entrusted a Revelation; that this Church was to spread all the world over, and to last till the end of time; that the Revelation was to be preserved pure and unchanged, and preached to all mankind; that it contained many doctrines opposed to human prejudices, and many mysteries impervious to human reason; that faith in this Revelation is necessary for men in order to please God and save their souls; that men are very prone to error, and especially so in matters of faith; taking all this into account the argument for the necessity of an infallible guide becomes too strong for Dr. Salmon’s carping criticism.

But our argument for the Infallibility of the Church is the express and unmistakable Revelation of that doctrine by God Himself, both in His written and unwritten Word. It is clearly contained in St. Matthew xxviii. 18, 19, 20, and in many other Scripture texts besides. And as the argument for this doctrine is given, and fully developed by most of our dogmatic theologians, and developed at great length and with special force by Dr. Murray, it will be sufficient to refer to the matter briefly here.

On the eve of our Lord’s ascension He appeared to His Apostles, and delivered to them His final charge saying: — ‘All power is given to Me in Heaven and on earth: going therefore, teach ye all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost; teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you; and behold I am with you all days even to the consummation of the world.’ [Mt 28:18-20] The object of the Apostles’ mission was to bring men to a knowledge of revealed truth and to teach them the observance of moral laws. To do this at any time, was a tremendous task for a few poor illiterate men, or for any men to undertake. And hence our Lord began His commission to them, by setting forth His own power, as the principle on which they were to rely — the source of their strength, the warrant of their success. It is as if He had said to them: — Fear not the magnitude of the task I impose upon you; but armed with My own power go out into the world; make disciples of the nations; teach them to know and require of them to believe My doctrines, and teach them to observe all My commands, and in the execution of this commission — a difficult one — I shall be with you, aiding you, directing you, protecting you, and ensuring your success for all time.

Now, whatever be the extent of this commission, it was given to the teachers of the Church, it was a teaching commission. ‘Make them disciples,’ and do so by ‘teaching them to observe,’ or rather to ‘guard with care’ (as the Greek text has it) ‘all that I have entrusted to you.’ Now, this commission and the accompanying promise were not limited to the Apostles, but were intended for their successors for all time, because (1) they were to teach all nations which the Apostles could not, or at least did not do, and (2) the work of teaching was to continue till the end of time, which necessarily supposes that others were to continue what the Apostles had begun. And the teaching commission embraced all the truths revealed to the Apostles, and extended to all men without exception: — ‘Teach all nations . . .  to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you.’ And for the successful discharge of this commission, our Lord promised His own special efficacious aid to His Apostles and their successors to ensure this success. ‘I am with you all days.’

Now, according to Scriptural usage, conclusively established by Dr. Murray, this expression, ‘I am with you,’ means a special divine efficacious aid and protection to the Apostles, ensuring the faithful discharge of their mission. And this divine assurance and pledge of success is not limited to the Apostles themselves; it is equally promised to those who are to continue the Apostles’ work till the end of time. Now, were it possible for the Church to teach false doctrines, how could the God of Truth be said to be with her, aiding her in doing so? How could He lend His efficacious positive assistance to the propagation of falsehood? Since, therefore, He has pledged Himself to be with His Church in her work of teaching, the Church’s teaching must be always true.

This is our doctrine. It is intelligible; it is consistent; it ensures to as the possession of that true faith without which salvation is impossible; it secures us against those wretched systems that make shipwreck of the faith. Isaias saw in the distant future the beauty of the Bride of the Lamb, and St. Paul described her admirable symmetry, when the reality was before him; but instead of the beauty foretold by Isaias; instead of the order and symmetry insisted on by St. Paul, heresy shows us a deformed thing, corrupt and corrupting, and asks us to recognise it as the spotless Spouse of Christ. Instead of the harmony which Scripture everywhere attributes to the Kingdom of God on earth heresy presents to us a picture of that other kingdom in which no order but everlasting horror dwells; and we are told that our Lord preached up and propped up this other Babel, and called it the Ark of His Covenant with men; that He left His Church a mistress of manifold error, and called her, at the same time, ‘the pillar, and the ground of truth.’ Surely it can be no difficult task to vindicate the God of Truth against such an imputation as this — and this imputation is the sum and substance of Dr. Salmon’s lectures.

Our dogmatic theologians give several arguments, from the written and unwritten Word of God, to prove the Infallibility of the Church; they develop those arguments at considerable length, and answer the objections both to the doctrine and to the proofs; but Dr. Salmon conveniently ignores the arguments, and repeats the objections, with as much apparent confidence as if they had never been answered. When the powers of his young controversialists come to be tested they will discover that the Doctor’s training of them was not the best. And not only does Dr. Salmon not consider our argument for Infallibility, but he actually maintains that we can have no argument at all; and that he has ‘a perfect right to put out of court all Roman Catholic attempts to prove the Infallibility of their Church, as being attempts to build a fabric without a foundation’ (page 79).

This may be a very convenient, but certainly not a very effectual way of disposing of us. But he goes further, and informs his students, that we ourselves must admit the hopelessness of our case, for ‘there is one piece of vitally important knowledge,’ he says, ‘which Roman Catholics must own, God has not given men never-failing means of attaining; I mean the knowledge [of] what is the true Church’ (page 99). Now Dr. Salmon has given in his book, as an appendix, the ‘Decrees of the Vatican Council,’ and it may therefore be presumed that he has read them. And if he has read them how could he make the extraordinary statement given above that we ourselves must admit that we have no ‘never-failing means’ of finding out what the true Church is? In the chapter on Faith he could have read — he must have read — the following: —

But in order that we may be able to satisfy our obligation of embracing the true faith, and of persevering constantly in it, God, by His only begotten Son, instituted His Church, and gave to it marks of its divine origin so manifest that it can be recognized by all as the Guardian and Teacher of His revealed Word. For to the Catholic Church alone belongs all those things, so many and so wonderful, which are divinely arranged to show the evident credibility of the Christian faith. Nay more, even the Church, considered in herself, because of her wonderful propagation, her extraordinary sanctity, and her inexhaustible richness, in all good things; because of her Catholic unity, her unconquerable stability; she is herself a great and never-failing motive of credibility, and an indisputable proof of her own divine mission.

With this text before him (page 480), which he must have read, it is amazing that Dr. Salmon should have made the extraordinary statement given above, and at the same time have supplied so readily the means of refuting his calumny. But the proof of the statement is more extraordinary still. He says: — ‘They must own that the institution of an infallible Church has not prevented the world from being overrun with heresy’ (page 100). And he develops this argument (?) at great length. Of course we own it; but what follows? Does the admission disprove Infallibility? The vast majority of those who heard our Divine Lord teaching, and who witnessed His miracles, rejected Him, called Him a demon, and cried out, ‘Crucify Him. Does this prove that He was not the Son of God?

If I had not come, and spoken to them, they would not have sin; but now they have no excuse for their sin. . . . If I had not done among them the works that no other man hath done, they would not have sin; but now they have both seen and hated both Me and My Father. [Jn 15:22-24]

They disbelieved Him, therefore, in the face of most conclusive proof of His Divinity. ‘And shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect.’ [Rom 3:3] As well might Dr. Salmon have quoted the pagan millions of China, India, Africa, and Japan, against Christianity, as quote the prevalence of heresy against the teaching of the true Church. As the Vatican Council well and truly says the Catholic Church bears on her brow the mark of her divine institution. She is her own argument by reason of her extraordinary history. Pagan persecutors, heretics in each succeeding age, the jealous enmity of worldly powers, enemies from without and from within, she has confronted with a wisdom, a fortitude, a success that must have been divinely given. Each age has had its Dr. Salmon to asperse her, and its Dr. Cumming to predict her fall; but she, calm in the consciousness of divine protection, has gone on discharging her heavenly mission, whilst they have been wafted on the stream of time to oblivion. Such has her history been in the past, and such too shall it be in the future — always a fulfilment of her Founder’s promise to be with her ‘all days even to the end of the world.’

As already stated, Dr. Salmon does not meet the arguments of Catholic theologians in favour of the doctrine of Infallibility. He aims rather at bringing the doctrine into doubt by a series of assertions and charges, none of which really touches the doctrine at all, and most of which are false. The readers of Oliver Twist will recollect the cleverness, and the tone of lofty indignation, with which the Artful Dodger always managed to charge some one else with the crimes of which he was himself guilty. Dr. Salmon must have taken lessons from this able tactician. He says the Church of Rome is perpetually changing her doctrines, and that which changes is not true; she has been always boasting that she never changes, and she has before our eyes quite recently promulgated doctrines never heard of before. This, Dr. Salmon told his students, was a conclusive proof of her fallibility. He says: —

The idea that the doctrine of the Church of Rome is always the same is one which no one of the present day can hold without putting an enormous strain on his understanding. It used to be the boast of Romish advocates that the teaching of their Church was unchangeable. Heretics, they used to say, show by their perpetual alterations that they never have had hold of the truth. . . . Our Church, on the contrary, they said, ever teaches the same doctrine which has been handed down from the Apostles, and has since been taught ‘everywhere, always, and by all.’ Divines of our Church used to expose the falsity of this boast by comparing the doctrine now taught in the Church of Rome with that taught in the Church of early time; and thus established by historical proof that a change had occurred. But now the matter has been much simplified, for no laborious proof is necessary to show that that is not unchangeable which changes under our very eyes. This rate of change is not like that of the hour hand of a watch, which you must note at some considerable intervals of time in order to see that there has been a movement, but, rather, like that of the second hand, which you can actually see moving (pages 19, 20).

Again : —

The old theory was that the teaching of the Church had never varied. . . . No phrase had been more often on the lips of Roman controversialists than that which described the faith of the Church as what was held always, everywhere, and by all (page 33).

This was always our boast; but now the logic of facts, brought borne to us by theologians like Dr. Salmon, has compelled us to abandon this boast, and to admit that we, too, are changing with time. He says: —

You will find them now making shameless confession of the novelty of articles of their creed, and even taunting us Anglicans with the unprogressive character of our faith, because we are content to believe as the early Church believed, and as our fathers believed before us (pages 31, 32).

It is to be regretted that Dr. Salmon did not give the names of the ‘Romish advocates’ who charge Protestants with ‘the unprogressive character’ of their various creeds. The charge could certainly not be sustained, for the authors of the ‘Higher Criticism’ are all Protestants; and they have so far progressed as to have left the Bible far behind them. And it would be equally unfair to charge the Protestant Church with ‘the unprogressive character’ of her teaching, for she teaches nothing. Individual Protestants may take their creed from the Bible, or from any other source they please; but their Church cannot tell them whether they are right or wrong. She has received ‘the divine commission not to teach,’ and she is discharging it with admirable fidelity.

But now as to the Catholic Church. Dr. Salmon’s great charge is that she is boasting to be always the same, and yet is perpetually changing. If he bad given the language in which the boast is conveyed by the ‘Romish advocates,’ we should be able to judge of its meaning; but be has not done so. He has given a paraphrase of the teaching of Dr. Milner and of Bossuet, perverted in both cases; and he has given an extract from a popular lecture of Cardinal Wiseman which proves nothing for him. If he were anxious, as he should have been, to give his students a correct version of our doctrine, he should have consulted our standard theologians, such as St. Thomas, Suarez, De Lugo, Dr. Murray, Franzelin, or Mazzella; and if he had consulted them, he would find them all flatly contradicting him as to the sense of the ‘boast’ which he attributes to us.

He would find them, and every dogmatic theologian who has written on faith, asking the question whether there is any growth or increase in faith with lapse of time — utrum fides decursu temporis augeatur? Now, the very fact of our theologians putting this question shows that the sense put upon our boast by Dr. Salmon is a false sense, and their answer makes this more clear, and gives the true sense. The invariable answer is that since the Apostolic age there has been no growth, no increase in faith, considered in itself (simpliciter); that the divine deposit of faith remains unchanged and unchangeable; but that there has been a growth, an increase in a qualified sense (secundum quid), limited to the interpretation — the explanation of the divine, unchangeable deposit by the infallible authority of the Church.

St. Thomas says: Articles of faith grew with the lapse of time, not, indeed, as to their substance, but as to their explanation and explicit profession; for what has been explicitly and more fully believed in later times was implicitly and in fewer articles believed by the early fathers [Summa Theologica, 2, 2ae, q. 1, a. vii]. Suarez has this same doctrine stated more at length in his Disp. 2°, s. vi., on Faith, and De Lugo has it in his Disp. 3, s. v. ; Dr. Murray has it Disp. 1, s. iv., n. 55. It is, and always has been, the universal teaching of our theologians. And Dr. Salmon could have read this same doctrine in his own book, for it is distinctly stated in the fourth chapter of the Constitution De Ecclesia of the Vatican Council, which he gives in his Appendix (page 482). The Council says: —

Neither is the doctrine of faith, which God has revealed, put forward like a philosophical system to be improved by human ingenuity; but as a divine deposit given to the Spouse of Christ to be faithfully guarded and infallibly declared . . . therefore, let the understanding, the knowledge, the wisdom of each and all, of every age and time, of each individual, as well as of the entire Church, increase and progress very much; but let the progress be within its own kind only; that is, in the same truth, the same sense, and the same sentiment.

He must have known, therefore, from his own book, what our teaching was when he misrepresented it. The body of doctrines which constitute the divine deposit of faith comprises the revelation made by our Lord to His Apostles during His life on earth, supplemented by the revelation made to them by the Holy Ghost after our Lord’s ascension. With the death of the last of the Apostles, the deposit of faith was completed. Into that deposit, henceforward, no fresh revelation could enter. New revelations may, perhaps, have been made subsequently to individuals; but they form no part of the deposit of faith, and no article of Catholic faith can be grounded on them. The deposit of faith can receive no increase; it can admit of no diminution.

It remains in the custody of the teaching Church, as its infallible guardian, interpreter, and teacher. As its infallible guardian the Church maintains that deposit in all its purity and integrity. She will permit no new doctrine, however true, to enter into it; she will not permit even the smallest portion of it to be lost. Her commission is to guard it faithfully, and under the guidance of the Holy Ghost to interpret it and teach it to us, as times and circumstances demand. From this one source of divine truth all the Church’s teaching comes; and the Holy Ghost is with her assisting her in drawing her teaching from this one source of truth. It is to this complete body of doctrines that our Lord referred when He commissioned His Apostles to teach all that He had commanded them; to it also He referred when He promised to send the Holy Ghost to teach them all things, and to bring to their minds all that He had told them. The Apostles themselves were the first promulgators and teachers of this body of truth. Their commission of teaching passed on to their successors, and shall continue with them till the end of time.

Now, from the very nature of the case, it is clear that the Apostles did not, and could not, put forth all revealed truths, to all men at the same time; there must be some order, some succession in their teaching. And we find quite abundant evidence in the New Testament to convince us that all the truths contained in the deposit of faith were not put forward at first with equal prominence. St. Paul told the Corinthians: — ‘I judged myself not to know anything among you, but Jesus Christ, and Him crucified.’ And he added: ‘Howbeit we speak wisdom amongst the perfect.’ [1 Cor 2:2, 6] Again: ‘And I, brethren, could not speak to you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal. As unto little ones in Christ. I gave you milk to drink, not meat; for you were not able as yet.’ [1 Cor 3:1-2] And again: ‘For everyone, that is a partaker of milk, is unskilful in the word of justice: for he is a little child. But strong meat is for the perfect; for them who by custom have their senses exercised to the discerning of good and evil’ [Heb 5:13-14].

It is then clear that in communicating religious knowledge the Apostles took into account the circumstances of their hearers, and their capacity for receiving instruction. And the above texts are understood in this sense by the best Protestant commentators— by Dr. Lightfoot, Dr. Ellicott, Dr. Westcott, Dr. Evans, in the Speaker’s Commentary; Alford, Bloomfield, and MacKnight. It must be, then, that the deposit of faith contained doctrines of so sublime a character, that neophytes could not readily take them in; and, at the same time, it is clear that it also contained doctrines so absolutely necessary to know and to believe, that without knowledge and belief of them, no adult could be saved. ‘For he that cometh to God, must believe that He is, and is a rewarder to them that seek Him’ [Heb 11:6]. Such truths are said to be necessary as means of salvation (necessitate medii).

Then there are other truths, the knowledge and belief of which are so necessary for our spiritual well-being that it is our duty to know and to believe them. The necessity of faith in such truths is called the necessity of precept. Now, it is clear that truths of this sort by reason of this necessity should occupy, and did occupy, a more prominent place in Apostolic teaching than the more recondite and speculative truths of faith. Such truths should enter into the public, obligatory profession of faith of the Church ; they were explicitly proposed to the faithful, and explicitly believed by them; while other truths, equally contained in the deposit of faith, were not thus explicitly put forward, and were believed only implicitly. But the Church was to teach all that her Lord commanded her, and this implied the obligation of believing all on the part of the faithful; and they fulfil the obligation by believing explicitly all that is proposed to them by the Church, and in accepting her as a divinely authorized teacher they have implicit belief in all else that is contained in the divine deposit of faith.

Now, in this deposit there are doctrines that are either obscure in themselves, or that have not been prominently set forth, for a time, in the Church’s teaching; and there are doctrines also, apparently clear, and explicitly proposed which, in time, are found to require further explanation. Regarding such doctrines controversies necessarily arise, and the Church, assisted by the Holy Ghost, decides the controversy, and by a new definition, or rather by a new and more explicit statement of an old truth, makes known to her children the divinely revealed truth on the disputed question. Then again, we know how busy Satan is in this world, and how often he succeeds in bringing the vagaries of men’s minds, in various departments of knowledge so called, into conflict with God’s revelation. And when such conflicts arise it is the duty of the Church to ward off error from the faith of which she is the custodian. Thus more explicit statements of revealed, truths become necessary, in order, more clearly, to point out to the faithful where the error lies.

And as difficulties of such kinds are arising in every age of the Church they are to be met in every age by like action on her part. And by such definitions no new truth is announced; a truth, always contained in the deposit of faith, and thus hitherto an object of implicit faith, is by the definition authoritatively proposed to the faithful, and thus enters into their explicit faith — a divinely revealed truth passes from the category of implicit into that of explicit faith. This is the meaning of each new definition of faith by the Church, and the decrees of Councils, and of Popes as well, prove this most conclusively. And the moment the definition is announced the faithful accept it unhesitatingly, and it passes into the public obligatory profession of their faith; controversy ceases, and doubts disappear. And hence it is, that all over the Church there is always one profession of faith, and in that profession all Catholics of every tongue, and tribe, and nation agree with the most absolute unanimity. Just as there is no fear that any doctrine shall be defined that is not already contained in the deposit of faith, so there is no fear that a doctrine once defined shall ever be withdrawn or contradicted — all is harmonious and consistent because infallibly true.

And, were any professing Catholic to refuse to accept a doctrine defined by the Church, he is by the very fact cut off from his communion, and left to herd with the heathen and the publican abroad. We have a divinely appointed teacher, securing to us absolute unity of faith, and we follow her guidance. This is our proud ‘boast,’ or rather our grateful acknowledgment of God’s mercy towards us. But this is not the sense of our ‘boast’ according to Dr. Salmon. According to him our boast ‘was that the teaching of the Church had never varied’; that is, that our explicit faith, the articles of faith defined and obligatory, were always the same, and that no addition could be made to their number, and consequently that no definition of faith could be admitted — a ‘boast’ which no Catholic ever made or could make, for it would be a denial of the mission of the Church. Now, when Dr. Salmon undertook to lecture on ‘Infallibility,’ as held by us, he owed it to his students, at least, to learn himself the doctrine he was training them to refute. If he did so, why has he so greatly misrepresented us? If he did not learn our teaching (and it is charity to him to suppose that he did not), then he was lecturing his students on a subject of which he was himself ignorant, an insult to any self-respecting body of young men.

By all means, let him refute our doctrines, if he can, and let him teach others to do so; but to represent our doctrines as a series of childish absurdities is to act as if he had been lecturing in a lunatic asylum. He fancies that he has an explicit and final condemnation of all new definitions of faith in the celebrated saying of St. Vincent of Lerins — Quod ubique, quod semper, quod ab omnibus [“That which is believed everywhere, always, and by all”]. We have been in the past always quoting this, saying, that our teaching has never varied (pages 20, 33, 183). New definitions have, however, completely falsified our boast, and we quote St. Vincent no longer. Now, though Dr. Salmon thinks St. Vincent’s rule a serious difficulty for us he does not appear to expect much advantage from its use himself. He says, ‘it is obvious that this rule can give us no help in a controversy’ (page 270); and in a note he modifies ‘no help’ into ‘little help.’ But whether it ‘gives no help,’ or ‘little help,’ he thinks it useful against us. St. Vincent says that our faith must be what was held ‘everywhere, always, and by all,’ and as this must refer to explicit faith, it excludes all new definitions. This is Dr. Salmon’s case against us, from St. Vincent of Lerins, and it is one of the commonest Protestant objections.

Again Dr. Salmon is misleading his students, and if they had read for themselves the chapter of St. Vincent from which the words are taken, they would have seen that their professor’s inference was groundless. In the second chapter of the Commonitorium St. Vincent says that he had frequently inquired from holy and learned men how he could find some safe general rule to enable him to distinguish Catholic faith from heresy, and the rule he gives is this: In the Catholic Church itself, then, we must take special care to hold what was believed everywhere always, and by all; for this is truly and rightly Catholic.’ The Protestant inference from this is that nothing cam be believed except what was held everywhere, always, and by all, and therefore that there can be no new definition.

But St. Vincent did not say this nor did he mean it. He said that what was held everywhere, always, and by all, was Catholic faith; but he did not say that nothing else was. The fact that a doctrine was thus always universally held showed that it was of Apostolic origin, and therefore of faith, but St. Vincent did not say that a doctrine could not be of Apostolic origin unless it was thus universally held. Had this been his meaning, several truths controverted, and decided before his time, could not have been defined at all. He did not intend by his maxim, therefore, to exclude future definitions of faith, and he has himself taken care to make this clear and indisputable. In forcible and eloquent language he has himself anticipated, and answered, the Protestant objection. In chapter xxxiii. he says : —

But, perhaps some one shall say, shall there then be no progress of religion in the Church of Christ? By all means, let there be, and very much progress. For who is he, so envious to men, so hateful to God, that would try to prohibit this? But let it be a real progress of faith, not a change. It is the character of progress that each thing should grow in itself; but it is the character of change that a thing should pass from one thing into another. It is right, therefore, that the understanding, the knowledge, the wisdom of each and all, of every age and time, of each individual as well as of the entire Church should increase, and progress very much, but each in its own kind only, that is in the same truth, in the same sense and sentiment.

He then goes on to compare the growth of faith in the Church with the growth of the human body, and he shows that just as the grown man is the same as the child, though his limbs have grown and progressed, so, too, is the defined article of faith the same as the truth out of which it has
grown. And he says: —

It is lawful that the original truths of the heavenly philosophy should in the course of time be systematized, explained, illustrated; but it is not lawful that they should be changed, robbed of their meaning, or mutilated. Let them receive evidence, new light, classification; but let them retain their fulness, their integrity, their distinctive character.

And after saying that if one doctrine could be corrupted, all would soon be corrupt, and a shipwreck of faith would follow, he says: —

But the Church of Christ, the careful, watchful guardian of truths entrusted to her, never changes anything in them; never takes anything from them, never adds to them; she cuts away nothing necessary, she adds nothing superfluous; she loses nothing of her own, she takes nothing that is not her own, but with all zeal and care she aims at this one thing, that by faithfully and wisely handling her ancient dogmas she might explain and illustrate whatever was originally obscure and vague, that she might strengthen and confirm what was express and clear, and that she might guard what was already confirmed and defined. Finally, what else has she ever aimed at by the decisions of her Councils, except that what was hitherto simply believed, may henceforth be believed more diligently; that what was hitherto rarely preached may henceforth be preached with greater emphasis; that what was hitherto remissly cultivated may henceforth be cultivated with greater solicitude. This, I say, and nothing else, has the Catholic Church, when assailed by heretical novelties, done by the decrees of her Councils. What she received at first by tradition alone, from those who went before, this she has handed down, even in written documents, giving a great deal of truth in a few words, and very often for clearness’ sake giving a new name to an old truth of faith.

This is Catholic doctrine and practice to the letter, taken literally from a saint who is called up as a witness against both. And St. Vincent gives an instance of a definition which fully and forcibly illustrates the transition of a revealed truth from implicit to explicit faith. In chapter vi. he speaks of the controversy between Pope Stephen and St. Cyprian on the validity of Baptism given by heretics, and alter referring to the writings and disputations on the question he says: —

What then was the result of it all? What surely but the usual, the customary result, the ancient doctrine was retained, the novelty was rejected. And o, wonderful change! the authors of the opinion are accounted Catholics, its followers are heretics; the teachers are acquitted, the disciples are condemned, the writers of the books shall be the children of the kingdom, but hell shall receive the upholders of them.

Thus, then, we have a controversy in which up to the time of its definition Catholics were free to hold either side, but the moment the question was authoritatively settled by the Church, the adherents of the condemned doctrines were heretics. The authors of the writings, such as St. Cyprian and Firmilian, are accounted Catholics because they submitted to the voice of authority; but those who persisted in their opposition to that voice are declared heretics. One would imagine that St. Vincent is writing the history of the Vatican Council, that he has before him the history of the Catholic Church for all the centuries of her life — so accurately, so vividly, does he describe her working in the discharge of her divine commission as guardian and teacher of all revealed truth.

And if Dr. Salmon had read St. Vincent’s Commonitorium, he could not have indulged in his silly charges against the Catholic Church. With a confidence not begotten of knowledge, he quotes glibly four words from the entire book, as if they were to be the epitaph of the Catholic Church; and he poses before his students as a fountain of Patristic lore, though his book is a monument to his ignorance of the fathers, and nowhere is the ignorance less excusable than in his reference to St. Vincent of Lerins. What, then, becomes of his charges against us of ‘new doctrines,’ of changing faith? The charges are groundless: the whole life and action of the Church brands them as false, the Church is only doing now what she was doing in the days of St. Vincent of Lerins, what she shall continue to do till the end of time; fulfilling her office as guardian of revelation by condemning errors, and faithfully discharging her teaching office by the promulgation and explanation of all revealed truth.

And the ‘proud boast,’ attributed to us by Dr. Salmon, we have never made at all, and therefore have never retracted. The ‘boast’ we did make, and do make, has been traced down from St. Vincent to the Vatican Council, and it is the same all along the line; and there is nothing in Dr. Salmon’s lectures by which it can be in the slightest degree imperiled. His arguments against us are in reality arguments against his own reputation for learning and prudence. He should have taken the advice of the ‘judicious Hooker’[:]

Being persuaded of nothing more than this, that whether it be in matters of speculation or of practising, no untruth can possibly avail the patron, and defender long, and that things most truly are likewise most behovefully said.

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Photo credit: George Salmon, from Cassell’s universal portrait gallery: no later than 1895 [public domain / Wikimedia Commons]
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Summary: Jeremiah Murphy, D.D. made a devastating reply to anti-Catholic George Salmon’s rantings in a multi-part review in The Irish Ecclesiastical Record in 1901-1902.
2023-02-21T16:47:40-04:00

Lucas Banzoli is a very active Brazilian anti-Catholic polemicist, who holds to basically a Seventh-Day Adventist theology, whereby there is no such thing as a soul that consciously exists outside of a body, and no hell (soul sleep and annihilationism). This leads him to a Christology which is deficient and heterodox in terms of Christ’s human nature after His death. He has a Master’s degree in theology, a degree and postgraduate work in history, a license in letters, and is a history teacher, author of 27 self-published books, as well as blogmaster (active on and off) for six blogs. He has many videos on YouTube.

This is my 61st refutation of Banzoli’s writings. For almost half a year (5-25-22 to 11-12-22) he wrote not one single word in reply, because my articles were deemed to be “without exception poor, superficial and weak” and he believes that “only a severely cognitively impaired person would be inclined to take” them “seriously.” Despite this childish rationalizing, he found my refutations so “entertaining” that he bravely decided to “make a point of rebutting” them “one by one”; this effort being his “new favorite sport.”

He has now replied to me 15 times (the last one dated 2-9-23). I disposed of the main themes of his slanderous insults in several Facebook posts under his name on my Anti-Catholicism page (where all my replies to him are listed). I shall try, by God’s grace, to ignore his innumerable insults henceforth, and heartily thank him for all these blessings and extra rewards in heaven (Matthew 5:11-12).

Google Translate is utilized to render Lucas’ Portugese into English. Occasionally I slightly modify clearly inadequate translations, so that his words will read more smoothly and meaningfully in English. His words will be in blueWords from past replies of mine to him will be in green.

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See Part I: Defending 20 Biblical Proofs for the Papacy (vs. Lucas Banzoli) (2-13-23)

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This is my reply to Lucas Banzoli’s article, “Refutando as “20 maiores provas bíblicas” que Dave encontrou do papado de Pedro (Parte 2)” [Refuting the “20 Greatest Biblical Proofs” Dave Found for the Papacy of Peter (Part 2)] (2-9-23). Despite his heroic resolve to refute any and all of my [now 61] critiques of his arguments “one by one,” for some odd reason he chose to pass over my massive four-part counter-reply, “Reply to Lucas Banzoli’s 205 Potshots at St. Peter” (5-26-22) and to concentrate on my older article (not directed towards him): “Top Twenty Biblical Proofs for the Office of the Papacy” (12-12-15). Obviously, twenty arguments are easier to address than 205, but one hopes to see him defend his larger effort, which I disposed of over eight months ago now.

Here we will look at the other ten, more for entertainment than anything else, as the arguments that were already laughable in Part 1 become even more catastrophic in Part 2 (which is the “leftover” of the previous arguments).

I’m sure, then, since my arguments are so “laughable” and “catastrophic” according to Banzoli, that his takedown of my 205 refutations of his anti-Petrine / anti-papacy arguments will be appearing soon.

11. Peter alone among the apostles is exhorted by Jesus to “strengthen” the Christian “brethren” (Lk 22:32).

This in no way implies rule over the Church, because Jesus did not use a word to designate authority or leadership. The word Luke uses here is sterizo, which means “to strengthen, to make firm” (Strong’s #4741), and throughout the Bible we are taught that it is the duty of all of us to strengthen one another. 

Of course we are to do so, but this misses the point (yet another non sequitur: Banzoli’s stock-in-trade). The actual point is that only Peter “among the apostles” (technically meaning here the twelve disciples) is told to do this. It is this constant singling out of Peter that indicates his primacy among the disciples, and by analogy and the historical working-out of Petrine primacy, the pope’s primacy among the bishops.

There is a reason why Peter is portrayed as the leader of the disciples and the early Church in the NT (just as there is a reason for absolutely everything in the inspired, infallible revelation of the Bible), and that reason is his role as the prototype of the pope and his being the first pope.

The author of Hebrews says that it is the overall mission of Christians (not just Peter) to “strengthen the feeble hands and the feeble knees” (Heb. 12:12); James asks to “strengthen your hearts” (James 5:8); Paul says to “be strong in the Lord and in the power of his might” (Eph 6:10), to “comfort one another” (1 Thess 4:18) and to “Exhort one another and build one another up” (1 Thess 5:11).

Yep. This has nothing to do with my point, as explained. It would be nice if just one time, Banzoli actually comprehended, grasped, understood the nature of an argument that I made. That would be such a refreshing change. I think I’d go out and celebrate of that ever happened: take my wife to a play or something; even take my whole family (my treat!). A real cause for celebration . . .

Banzoli then uses an argument that he has brought up several times now: trying to explain away or rationalize all of these evidences of Petrine primacy:

Christ had predicted in the previous verse that Satan would tempt Peter (v. 31), as indeed he did, causing him to deny the Lord three times, as he says would shortly thereafter (v. 34). So, within this context, he says that, when all this was over, Peter would be used by God to strengthen his brothers . . . 

This “singular weakness of Peter” canard can’t be used for every single one of my fifty Petrine proofs (from which these twenty are drawn). Even if it is a factor at all (and it may have been, to a minor degree), it simply can’t explain away everything I have made note of. When Jesus called Peter the Rock and said He would build His Church upon Him, it wasn’t (by all indications in the immediate context) because Peter was weak and had to be given a “vote of confidence” from the Lord.

It was because Peter proclaimed that He was “the Christ [Messiah], the Son of the living God” (Mt 16:16), to which Jesus replied: “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven” (Mt 16:17). And then He made him the Rock in the next verse.

Now, what does any of this have to do with Peter being weak or the one who temporarily lost his resolve (under the threat of possible death) to follow Jesus, denying Him? Absolutely nothing! Even those who don’t like Petrine primacy and despise the very notion of a papacy freely admit that it was Peter’s faith (before the Day of Pentecost, when all Christians were indwelt with the Holy Spirit) that led Jesus to change his name to Rock.

And true faith has nothing to do with the weaknesses that we also all have. Critics of Peter (who in effect represents the dreaded, detested  Catholicism) and those who run down things like my 50 Proofs, love to bring up the fact of Peter’s three denials.

As I pointed out elsewhere, that was a matter of a strictly temporary weakness or cowardice, under the threat of possible death, as one of Jesus’ followers. He made the denials, heard the cock crow, and then immediately “went out and wept bitterly” (Mt 26:75; Lk 22:62); “broke down and wept” (Mk 14:72); that is, he repented. The entire incident may have lasted no more than five or ten minutes.

Contrast that with Paul, who persecuted and actually killed who knows how many Christians, for who knows how long of a time (“ravaging the church”: Acts 8:3); who stood by “consenting” (Acts 8:1) when St. Stephen was stoned to death. It took God virtually forcing him to convert, with a dramatic vision, to stop the killing. This is why Paul described himself as “the foremost of sinners” (1 Tim 1:15), noting how he had “formerly blasphemed and persecuted and insulted” Jesus (1 Tim 1:13).

Which sin was worse, between those two? But both repented, and both were mightily used by God. Both were martyred (Paul by beheading, which takes half a second; Peter by being crucified — by his request — upside down: many hours of the most agonizing torture). Yet I never see Protestants like Banzoli arguing that God used Paul as he did only because Paul was such a notorious, murdering sinner before he became a Christian; therefore God told him (through Ananias) the great things he would do for the kingdom (“you will be a witness for him to all men”: Acts 22:15), to restore his confidence in himself.

That’s never heard; it’s only applied to Peter, and only — I submit — because we say he was the first pope. Thus, there exists an irrational bigotry towards Peter from anti-Catholics like Banzoli, or Jason Engwer: with whom I’ve gone through these discussions several times, too, whereas there is no similar animus towards Paul, even though (if we are to compare) he was a far greater sinner before his conversion to Christ.

12. St. Peter is the first to speak (and only one recorded) after Pentecost, so he was the first Christian to “preach the gospel” in the Church era (Acts 2:14-36).

That’s right, the logic is “Peter was the first to speak; therefore he was pope.” Believe me, this is literally how Dave tries to “prove” the papacy! . . . in Dave’s tiny mind, the fact that Peter was the first to speak at Pentecost makes him a pope, . . . [this] would automatically make any talkative person a leader – which is just plain stupid. . . . If being the first to speak were a criterion that necessarily identified a supreme leader, Moses would have taken the lead and spoken directly to the people and Pharaoh, instead of urging God that Aaron do it for him. . . . But Dave can’t understand something so simple, either because of obvious cognitive limitations or because of his traditional intellectual dishonesty. He really thinks that Peter being the first to speak on one occasion can only be explained by the fact that he is “pope”, which shows the extent to which he is committed to duping his readers and how he sees them only as putty; an amorphous, mindless mass that will trust any dumb argument without question. . . . it’s really hard to imagine how anyone would follow such a guy for any reason other than to laugh.

Of course (“cognitive limitations” or “intellectual dishonesty” or not), this is not my argument because (as seemingly always!) Banzoli has not comprehended what it is in the first place. So he caricatures and ridicules it. His goal is not to understand my arguments and provide rebuttals to them. Rather, he is always trying to “prove” that I am the dumbest person and apologist to ever walk the face of the earth (as we can readily observe above in his supercharged polemic). This is why he loses — and will continue to lose — every debate with me (by virtue of his vastly underestimating the ability of his opponent).

This particular argument is part of an overall cumulative argument (fifty such observations), that, taken together, lead one to believe that Peter was being portrayed as the leader of the disciples and the Church; that is, the first pope. No single argument is sufficient to do this by itself. Ron J. Bigalke (BS; MApol; MTS; MDiv; PhD), [Protestant] professor in apologetics and theology, explains the nature of cumulative apologetics arguments:

Cumulative case apologetics is a method that argues for the existence of God (or another complex truth claim) by demonstrating that it is the more reasonable view in correspondence with all obtainable evidence than some alternate hypothesis. As an argumentative methodology, the cumulative case would employ various arguments but none would be regarded resolutely. Each argument, however, results in clear and definite conclusions evidentially, which assert the probability of the existence of God. Various theistic arguments are intended as proofs that assert the probability of belief in the existence of God. For instance, arguments for the existence of God are not entirely formulated definitively; rather the argumentation is developed progressively, according to conditions of probability, until theism explains natural theology better than any alternative hypothesis and becomes more probable as truth than it not being true. (“Apologetics, Cumulative Case”, 25 November 2011)

I explained this in my 50 New Testament Proofs for Petrine Primacy & the Papacy. And Banzoli read my explanation then, since he responded to this article of mine before I ever started refuting his materials (which was in May 2022):

The biblical Petrine data is quite strong and convincing, by virtue of its cumulative weight, especially for those who are not hostile to the notion of the papacy from the outset. (my bolding and italics now)

In March 2002, I elaborated upon this in reply to Protestant apologist Jason Engwer, who had critiqued my 50 Proofs:

[T]hey are part of a long list of indications of the primacy of Peter. As I said, it is a “cumulative” argument. One doesn’t expect that all individual pieces of such an argument are “airtight” or conclusive in and of themselves, in isolation, by the nature of the case. I certainly don’t do so. I was probably assuming at the time that the sort of thing that Jason brings up was self-evident, because that was my own opinion (therefore, I thought it quite unnecessary to state it). Obviously, passages like the two above wouldn’t “logically lead to a papacy.” But they can quite plausibly be regarded as consistent with such a notion, as part of a demonstrable larger pattern, within which they do carry some force. It’s true that I should have made my logical and epistemological viewpoint on this more clear in the original paper, but I am happy to have the opportunity to do so now.

I made an analogy to biblical evidences for the Holy Trinity, which I had compiled two long lists of proofs for (one / two), twenty years earlier, in 1982:

Obviously, the Jews are quite familiar with Isaiah 9:6 and Zechariah 12:10, but they don’t see any indication of trinitarianism at all in them, nor do the three passages above “logically lead” to trinitarianism, if they are not interconnected with many, many other biblical evidences. Yet they are used as proof texts by Christians. No one claims that they are compelling by themselves; these sorts of “proofs” are used in the same way that my lesser Petrine evidences are used, as consistent with lots of other biblical data suggesting that conclusion. And Jews who reject trinitarianism beforehand as a form of blasphemy, will not see the relevance, let alone compulsion, of any of these indications, as their presuppositions do not allow them to interpret within that framework. Likewise, with many Protestants and the papacy and its biblical evidences.

I further explained my methodology:

I approached the Petrine list with the thought in mind: “Paul is obviously an important figure, but how much biblical material can one find with regard to Peter, which would be consistent with (not absolute proof of) a view that he was the head of the Church and the first pope?” Or, to put it another way (from the perspective of preexisting Catholic belief): “if Peter were indeed the leader of the Church, we would expect to find much material about his leadership role in the New Testament, at least in kernel form, if not explicitly.” . . .

As for the nature of a “cumulative argument,” what Jason doesn’t seem to understand is that all the various evidences become strong only as they are considered together (like many weak strands of twine which become a strong rope when they are woven together). . . . Apart from the first three evidences of the 50 being far more important (as indicated by the space given to them), many of the others are not particularly strong by themselves, but they demonstrate, I think, that there is much in the New Testament which is consistent with Petrine primacy, which is the developmental kernel of papal primacy.

The reader ought to note, also, that in the original paper I wasn’t claiming that these biblical indications proved “papal supremacy” or “papal infallibility” (i.e., the fully-developed papacy of recent times). . . .

I did not assert — didn’t get anywhere near claiming — that the papacy as understood after 1870 was present in full bloom in the pages of the New Testament. Quite the contrary; I stated that the doctrine was “derived from” Petrine primacy — as opposed to “proven in all its fully-developed aspects by the biblical presentation of Peter,” or some such thing –, and that it developed from the essential elements shown with regard to St. Peter in Scripture (just as, e.g., Chalcedonian trinitarianism developed from far simpler biblical and early patristic teachings on the Trinity).

I repeated much of this when I started refuting Banzoli’s 205 anti-Petrine arguments, so (barring a nonexistent memory) he is fully aware of it. Yet he continues to mock and ridicule various evidences, as if he has no inkling of how relatively little I claim for most of them. This is either outright dishonest or extremely shoddy scholarship on his part.

My overall argument in my 50 Proofs is far more subtle and sophisticated than Banzoli seems to understand. Or he does understand its nature and has simply chosen to misrepresent and caricature it in order to make me look like a simpleton and an idiot for his already anti-Catholic and “willing to believe anything and everything about Catholicism and its defenders, no matter how ridiculous” reading audience.

Banzoli even distorts and twists the specific point I made here, mocking the notion of Peter speaking first, even though he didn’t at the Jerusalem Council. It’s not the fact that he happened to be the first speaker on this occasion (as if that would prove anything); it’s the fact that he was the only one recorded to have spoken on the Day of Pentecost, which makes him “the first Christian to ‘preach the gospel’ in the Church era.” Certainly this has significance, and there is a reason that it happened and is recorded in the Bible. It’s the beginning of the Church, and at that time, Peter was clearly its leader.

So this is not a failed evidence. It works perfectly well, as long as one properly understands how much I would claim for it, in the context of the other 49 proofs. But if they make no attempt to comprehend and grasp that which they are critiquing, then we will get the asinine, vapid, fatuous analysis that he provided above, only making a fool of himself.

13. Peter works the first miracle of the Church Age, healing a lame man (Acts 3:6-12).

Wow! Peter performed a miracle; therefore, Peter was pope! It is increasingly difficult to think that anyone reads this citizen’s articles without being for comic reasons… Again, if you have an evangelism group, be very careful about performing a miracle – you don’t want someone to identify you as the pope.

He repeats the same basic, elementary noncomprehension of the nature of each individual argument, per my explanation immediately above. He notes that Paul performed seven miracles in the book of Acts, to Peter’s four. But this is perfectly irrelevant; my point being that Peter being the first has a symbolic meaning, according to the nature of biblical portrayals.

As a matter of fact, we have no way of knowing whether the first miracle was really the one performed by Peter in Acts 3; all we know is that it was the first recorded miracle. 

That’s right, and this is a valid point. But this is part of my argument, too: there is a reason why Peter either performed the first or is the first person recorded as having done so.

Or maybe Dave thinks that only doing the “first” miracle is important,

Yes it is, insofar as it is viewed in conjunction with 49 other proofs: all leading to the same conclusion: Petrine primacy.

In summary, from the moment that Paul is converted, Luke focuses almost entirely on him, and Peter is practically forgotten.

Since Peter and Paul were the most important figures in first century Christianity, Luke devotes the first half of his book to Peter and the second to Paul: exactly as we would expect. Once need not pit them against each other. There is no warrant to use the polemical language of Peter being “forgotten.” His deeds and words were simply recorded first in the book and then Paul’s.

14. Peter is regarded by the common people as the leader of Christianity (Acts 5:15: “as Peter came by at least his shadow might fall on some of them.”).

It’s hard to know for sure whether it’s dishonesty or backwardness (probably a combination of the two, from what we know of him). Dave picks up a text that says Peter’s shadow healed, and says that makes him the “leader of Christianity.” If he weren’t so dishonest, I’d say it’s a serious case of psychiatric impairment. . . . it’s hard to know the line between stupidity and dishonesty. 

See my explanations above, under #12. Apparently, it’s impossible to have any honest differences with anti-Catholics, without being accused of being nuts (James White, James Swan, Steve Hays all having made this charge), as well as good ol’ dishonesty.

We see Banzoli (in his reply here and often elsewhere) constantly pitting Paul against Peter, in the same manner that Jason Engwer tried to do. I answered all of that years ago:

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15. Peter was the first traveling missionary, and first to exercise the “visitation of the churches” (Acts 9:32-38, 43). Paul’s missionary journeys begin in Acts 13:2.

Dave’s ability to expose himself to ridicule is impressive. It even looks like he took a course on how to embarrass himself for free on the internet. I confess I have never seen anything like it before. . . . It really does sound like a five-year-old arguing . . . It is only in Dave Armstrong’s bewildered mind that whatever Peter does first is used as “proof” that he did it first because he was pope . . . In the end, anyone with a minimum of mental capacity is capable of realizing that these “arguments” are nothing more than crude, barbaric and senseless tricks to make Peter a pope at any cost – even if all logic and common sense have to be sacrificed in the process. Anything Peter does is used as “proof” of his primacy . . . and what others do is largely ignored, like the good con man that Dave is. If there are those who fall for this ruse, it’s only because his readers tend to be as ignorant as he is.

We often note and honor people who were the first to do something: the first to sail around the world, or to fly in an airplane, or the first to reach the North and South Poles, or to discover radioactivity, or to climb the highest mountain in the world (Mt. Everest) or walk on the moon. It would be reasonable to note that all these people were the “leaders” in their fields when they accomplished these things.

Likewise, there is nothing unreasonable in the slightest in making a cumulative argument about Petrine primacy which includes many items where Peter was the first, or first recorded to have done something important related to Christianity. This is a relevant factor, regardless of how much Banzoli wants to mock and ridicule, having not grasped the very nature of my overall argument in the first place. Solomon predicted such things in the tenth century BC:

Proverbs 29:9 (RSV) If a wise man has an argument with a fool, the fool only rages and laughs, and there is no quiet.

16. Cornelius is told by an angel to seek out St. Peter for instruction in Christianity:

Acts 10:21-22 And Peter went down to the men and said, “I am the one you are looking for; what is the reason for your coming?” [22] And they said, “Cornelius, a centurion, an upright and God-fearing man, who is well spoken of by the whole Jewish nation, was directed by a holy angel to send for you to come to his house, and to hear what you have to say.”

That is, Peter is pope because an angel sent Cornelius to look for Peter. 

Nope. That isn’t my argument, which would accurately be described as: “Peter is so important in early Christianity that an angel sends an open-minded inquirer to him. This clearly suggests that (or is at the very least consistent with the notion that) Peter was the leader, which in turn suggests (or is at the very least consistent with the notion that) he was the first pope (as the first leader of the Church), when understood in conjunction with 49 other indications of his primacy, forming together a cumulative argument.”

17. Peter is the first to receive the Gentiles into the fellowship of the Christian Catholic Church, after a revelation from God (Acts 10:9-48).

It is also based on the same logic already refuted in the penultimate argument, which is that if someone did something first, this someone must be superior to the others . . . 

See my answer under #15 above.

18. Peter presides over and is preeminent in the first Church-wide council of Christianity (Acts 15:7-11).

If the other arguments were simply silly, this one is an outright lie. It’s surreal that someone reads Acts 15 and still thinks that Peter led the council. Although Peter was present at the council, he neither opens nor closes it; he only speaks “after much discussion” (Acts 15:7), and after him the debate continues, with the speeches of Paul and Barnabas (v. 12). Who gives the final word (a typical attitude of those who preside over an assembly) is James, the brother of Jesus (vs. 13-20). His speech extends over 9 verses (vs. 13-21), four more than Peter’s (vs. 7-11). More importantly, the letter sent to the churches with the council’s decisions is based entirely on his words, not Peter’s: . . . 

James does most of the talking, James has the final word, James’ words are literally the council’s decisions (copied almost directly from what he said ) , but even so, in this troubled mind, it is Peter who “presides and is pre-eminent” in the council. It just reinforces the fact that his mind is so conditioned to deception and used to lying that it does it out of habit, even when all the evidence weighs to the contrary.
 
Apologists like Dave aren’t the least bit concerned about what the text says; they are only concerned with how to distort it to use it in favor of their previous views, to which they are psychologically conditioned. So, instead of doing exegesis, which is extracting from the text what it actually says, all they know is doing eisegesis – when someone tries to graft their own ideas into the text, even if the text doesn’t say any of that. So if a verse doesn’t say what Dave would like it to say, he tortures him until he says what he wants to hear. This is how Catholic apologetics works as a whole, which Dave exemplifies so well.

From Acts 15, we learn that “after there was much debate, Peter rose” to address the assembly (15:7). The Bible records his speech, which goes on for five verses. He was the first to speak definitively, and with authority. Peter claimed authority in a special way: “Brethren, you know that in the early days God made choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the Gospel and believe” (15:7). Peter sternly rebuked the opposing view of strict observance of ceremonial law: “Now therefore why do you make trial of God by putting a yoke upon the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear?” (15:10).
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After Peter spoke, the debate was essentially over, and it’s reported that “all the assembly kept silence” (15:12). Paul and Barnabas speak next, not making authoritative pronouncements, but confirming Peter’s exposition, speaking about “signs and wonders God had done through them among the Gentiles” (15:12). Then when James speaks, he refers right back to what “Simeon [Peter] has related” (15:14). James did not hand down the main decree or add anything new to what Peter had already proclaimed. To me, this suggests that Peter’s talk was central and definitive. James speaking last could easily be explained by the fact that he was the bishop of Jerusalem and therefore the “host.” Those who talked after Peter did not disagree with his decision, and merely confirmed it (15:12-21).
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James states, “Therefore my judgment …” but this does not prove that he presided, as anyone could say that (similar to saying, “my opinion is …”). The judgment was reached by consensus (“it seemed good to the apostles and elders, with the whole Church” in 15:22; “it has seemed good to us, having come to one accord” in 15:25; “it has seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us” in 15:28; cf. 16:4). This, too, is exactly like Catholic councils throughout history: they decide matters as a group, yet popes preside. Nothing in this text suggests anything other than St. Peter being the leader.
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Peter indeed had already received a relevant revelation, related to the council. God gave him a vision of the cleanness of all foods (contrary to the Jewish Law: see Acts 10:9-16). Peter is already learning about the relaxation of Jewish dietary laws, and is eating with uncircumcised men, and is ready to proclaim the gospel widely to the Gentiles (Acts 10 and 11). This was the second major decision of the Jerusalem Council, and Peter referred to his experiences with the Gentiles at the council (Acts 15:7-11). The council then decided — with regard to food –, to prohibit only that which “has been sacrificed to idols and from blood and from what is strangled” (15:29).
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Paul is not shown as having any special authority in the council. (Many think he had more authority in the early Church than Peter). Instead, we learn that he and Barnabas “were appointed to go up to Jerusalem to the apostles and elders about this question” (15:2). Paul and Barnabas merely give report of their experiences (15:12) and then they are sent by the council to report what had been decided (15:25, 30; 16:4).

This raises several questions for Protestants. When was the last council held a particular location, with the elders of the entire Church — at that time, Paul and Peter and others — binding for Protestant Christians at large in other locations, far away? Don’t Protestants always have the right to say that it was in error, since Scripture alone is their rule of faith? After all, that’s precisely what Luther said (councils can err, so he went by Scripture and plain reason), so why couldn’t Christians reject the decisions of Acts 15 and defy Paul’s injunction, described in Acts 16:4? Could or should a Protestant dissent from the decisions of the Jerusalem council (i.e., before portions of it became part of the New Testament? Martin Luther’s “councils err” notion doesn’t apply to it?

Instead, Paul and Timothy traveled “through the cities” (in Turkey; then called Asia Minor) and “delivered to them for observance the decisions which had been reached by the apostles and elders who were at Jerusalem.” Thus Paul proclaimed teaching that was binding, that was formulated by Peter as the leader of the first Christian council in history.

So there we have two competing interpretations of this council. Let the reader decide which is more plausible and accurate and true to the biblical account.

Banzoli shows himself utterly incapable of s=understanding the nature and subtlety of #19, so I won’t even bother repeating his inane “replies”; my patience hanging by the thinnest of threads by now, and utterly sustained only by God’s merciful grace.

20. St. Peter’s name is mentioned more often than all the other disciples put together: 191 times (162 as Peter or Simon Peter, 23 as Simon, and 6 as Cephas). John is next in frequency with only 48 appearances.

What Dave forgot to inform his readers (he forgot nothing, he left it out of purpose to bait them) is that Paul (and “Saul”, his other name) is mentioned by name no less than 240 times (not counting all the times appearing by the pronoun “he” and the like). . . . This is the typical dishonesty of Catholic apologetics and even more typical of Dave Armstrong, . . . he leaves not the slightest margin of doubt that he is dishonest.

What Banzoli forgot to inform his readers is that his argument is not a response to mine. I was comparing the mention of Peter’s name compared to the other disciples, meaning the original twelve disciples. Paul was not one of these, so his example is utterly irrelevant to my point, which is (as throughout my 50 Proofs) that Peter is presented as a leader of the disciples, therefore, by logical extension and analogy and the usual typological and prototypical understanding of Holy Scripture, he is to be regarded as the leader of the Church: particularly since Jesus said He would build His Church upon the Rock of Peter.

As we read the NT, it seems clear that Peter was more prominent than the other eleven disciples, 

Exactly! At last Banzoli actually makes some sense, and this is precisely what I was trying to establish with my 50 Proofs, so he winds up conceding the argument I made there. I wrote, “The Catholic doctrine of the papacy is biblically based, and is derived from the evident primacy of St. Peter among the apostles.” What I stated was “evident” Banzoli agrees is “clear.”  He obviously then denies that this primacy suggests the papacy, but that becomes a separate argument of a different epistemological nature and with different parameters and specifics.

He would have to understand my initial argument before we went on to that stage, but he shows no signs of doing so. He’s not even aware that he just conceded, above, the central point of my 50 Proofs. Peter, in his own words, “was more prominent than the other eleven disciples”. Thus far, we agree. I go on to say that this means something, that it has further implications, according to biblical prototypical and typological thinking, and that what we Catholics conclude from it is that Peter is being presented as the first leader of the Church: the first pope.

Of course that can be discussed and disagreed about, like any other topic (and has been these past 500 years), but in order to sensibly, rationally do so, those who disagree with my overall argument and its particulars, construed within the larger framework, must first understand both. Banzoli does not. Therefore, mostly what he does is mock and reiterate how supposedly stupid and/or dishonest I am, whereas I simply make my argument, presented so that anyone can make up their own mind as to whether I am onto something in this line of thinking or not.

Armstrong . . . exposes like no one else the notorious weakness of Catholic apologetics, with its famous poverty of arguments that leads it to manipulate the simplest texts in the most bizarre way possible. Although it serves as a source of entertainment, it is at the same time a sad and shocking portrait, which makes us reflect a lot on the extent to which a human being is capable of going to support his ideological fanaticism. Dave’s articles are all of these things at once, blending the comic with the surreal, and bringing out the worst in apologetics.

May God bless Lucas Banzoli with all good things, and bring him into the knowledge that Jesus is God, so that he can come back to Christianity again. He’s got the zeal in spades; he just needs God’s saving grace and the knowledge of what is true. If Paul could come to the true Jesus and become one of the greatest Christians ever, Banzoli can be made to see that Jesus is God, and to give up his unbiblical view of the soul, that caused him to reject the divinity of Jesus. Please pray for him and for God to fill him with His Spirit and educate and correct him where he is wrong.

He thinks I am his enemy and that I hate him. I’m not and I don’t. I want the best for him. I want him to be saved. This is what all Christians are commanded to do with regard to all people and I try my best, with God’s help and by His grace, to maintain this outlook. If he has made himself my enemy, then I love him all the more, according to Jesus’ command. One way to love is to correct someone when they are in theological error. That’s what I am educated to do as an apologist.

It does no one any good at all to believe in falsehood, and writers like Banzoli will be responsible for those whom they lead astray: “Let not many of you become teachers, my brethren, for you know that we who teach shall be judged with greater strictness” (James 3:1). I tremble over that verse every time my fingers touch my keyboard, in order to teach. 

***

Practical Matters: Perhaps some of my 4,000+ free online articles (the most comprehensive “one-stop” Catholic apologetics site) or fifty-one books have helped you (by God’s grace) to decide to become Catholic or to return to the Churchor better understand some doctrines and why we believe them.

Or you may believe my work is worthy to support for the purpose of apologetics and evangelism in general. If so, please seriously consider a much-needed financial contribution. I’m always in need of more funds: especially monthly support. “The laborer is worthy of his wages” (1 Tim 5:18, NKJV). 1 December 2021 was my 20th anniversary as a full-time Catholic apologistand February 2022 marked the 25th anniversary of my blog.

PayPal donations are the easiest: just send to my email address: [email protected]. You’ll see the term “Catholic Used Book Service”, which is my old side-business. To learn about the different methods of contributing, including 100% tax deduction, etc., see my page: About Catholic Apologist Dave Armstrong / Donation Information. Thanks a million from the bottom of my heart!

***

Photo credit: Detail of Christ Handing the Keys to St. Peter (1481-82) by Pietro Perugino (1448-1523) [public domain / Wikimedia Commons]

***

Summary: Brazilian anti-Catholic apologist and polemicist Lucas Banzoli responded to my “20 Biblical Proofs for the Papacy”. This is Part II of my systematic counter-reply.

***

2023-01-30T17:08:59-04:00

+ Near Eastern Archaeological Periods and Timeline of the Patriarchs

 

[click on the cover to see a much larger image]

[to be published by Catholic Answers Press on March 20, 2023; 320 pages]

[pre-order from Amazon ($21.95 for the paperback) ]

Introduction

What we may call biblical archaeology flourished from the 1930s to the 1950s, under the leadership of the great Methodist archaeologist and polymath William Foxwell Albright (1891–1971) and Jewish archaeologist and rabbi Nelson Glueck (1900–1971). In his 1959 book, Rivers in the Desert, Glueck summed up his and Albright’s high view of the Bible and their belief that archaeology strongly supports it:

It may be stated categorically that no archaeological discovery has ever controverted a biblical reference. Scores of archaeological findings have been made that confirm, in clear outline or exact detail, historical statements in the Bible. By the same token, proper evaluation of biblical descriptions has often led to amazing discoveries. (1)

This is roughly what is now called a biblical maximalist position within archaeology. Arguably, today’s most prominent maximalists are Scottish evangelical Protestant Egyptologist and archaeologist Kenneth A. Kitchen (b. 1932) and American archaeologist James K. Hoffmeier (b. 1951). Kitchen, though a firm defender of the historicity of the biblical accounts (and in that sense a “traditionalist”), doesn’t, however, uncritically accept the overall outlook or (especially) the methodology of Albright and his cohorts, like G. Ernest Wright (1909–1974) and Cyrus Gordon (1908– 2001). He rather bluntly made this clear:

The treatments given here by me are not based on Albright, Gordon, or the vagaries of the little local (and very parochial) United States problem of the long-deceased American Biblical Archaeology/Theology school. (2)

Biblical minimalism, on the other hand, has dominated the archaeology of Israel and the Near East since the 1970s. Prominent minimalist Thomas L. Thompson, professor of theology at the University of Copenhagen from 1993 to 2009, made this grandiose proclamation:

The results of my own investigations, if they are for the most part acceptable, seem sufficient to require a complete reappraisal of the current position on the historical character of the patriarchal narratives. (3)

I want to deal with specific objective matters in relation to the text of the Bible that can be addressed by archaeology or other forms of science, starting with premises (for the most part) that Christians and non-Christians accept in common. I’m not trying to prove biblical inspiration. That’s a much more involved and complex argument. What I’m doing is “defeating the defeaters” offered up by biblical skeptics, anti-theist atheists (who specialize in and constantly focus on criticizing the Bible, Christians, Christianity), and archaeological minimalists.

If they argue, for example, that a particular city wasn’t in existence when the Bible says it was, then, in response, I seek archaeological data to prove or at least offer strong evidential support for the biblical view. This approach defends the Bible’s accuracy.

Skeptical arguments against biblical accuracy are often incorrect and fallacious. In other words, if a skeptic contends, “The Bible is inaccurate history and therefore clearly not inspired because of errors a, b, c, d, e, and f,” I will  argue via secular science—most often, but not exclusively, archaeology—that supposed errors a, b, c, d, e, and f are actually not errors and can almost always be resolved in a way that is consistent with belief in biblical inspiration. If the Bible is inspired, then it should be historically accurate and not self-contradictory. It becomes, to put it another way, a strong cumulative argument.

This book deals with objective, historical issues that we can analyze through the means of scientific (mostly archaeological) analysis. It’s what Christians are often asked to do: give solid evidence for what we believe.

The format throughout the chapters is simple:

1) Present the material to be considered.

2) Summarize how Bible skeptics, archaeological minimalists, or anti-theist atheists question and cast doubt upon this material.

3) Refute the skeptical concerns and give a positive case for the biblical data from secular research.

Lastly, I must add a clarifying note regarding miracles and the supernatural, a common theme in the Bible and in this book. In many of my chapters, I speculate about possible natural causes for events that Christians usually regard as purely miraculous. In doing so, I’m not being “theologically liberal” or hostile to the possibility of miracles. I fully believe in them—that they happened and that they still happen today.

God can and does do whatever he wants, and the process of salvation is supernatural. Moreover, many biblical events can hardly not be miraculous, such as the killing of the Egyptian firstborn, the raising of the dead, walking on water and through walls, and Balaam’s talking donkey, not to mention transubstantiation, the Incarnation, the Virgin Birth, the atonement, Jesus’ resurrection and ascension, and other directly “theological” miracles.

On the other hand, as a clear example of God’s using non-miraculous means to accomplish his ends, we see that when he decided to judge his chosen people, he used the Assyrians to conquer the northern kingdom of Israel, in about 722–720 B.C. (Ezek. 23:1–10), and the Babylonians, led by Nebuchadnezzar, to conquer the southern kingdom of Judah (including the destruction of the Temple) in 586 B.C. (vv. 11–34). Then, not long afterward, God used the Persian king Cyrus to help the exiled Jews return to Jerusalem and rebuild their temple (2 Chron. 36:23; Ezra 6:3–5; Isa. 45:1–6,13). None of this was miraculous, but it was all in the “service” of God’s expressly stated will.

Standard Christian understanding of God’s sovereignty holds that God’s providence is large and complex enough to include natural events and extraordinary timing (as a function of his omniscience and being outside time) for the accomplishment of his purposes.

For example, a meteor—that God utilized for judgment—may have destroyed Sodom. If that was indeed the case, God knew that a meteor would be approaching soon and used the natural event in conjunction with his warning about the judgment. It was still his will to judge for sin. How he did it is a separate question.

Other times, it may be a mixture of the natural and miraculous. In these cases, I throw out interesting possibilities or theories, not necessarily taking a position. I never claim that things must have been the way I suggest.

As another example, let’s consider the incident of God providing quails for the wandering Hebrews to eat in the desert. As always, God could have worked through outright miracles if he so chose (he could have created a million quails on the spot and sent them down to the complaining Hebrews), or he could have marvelously arranged in his providence for lots of quails to appear right at the time when he said they would appear. Both are entirely in his capability, and each is an extraordinary event, showing his power (omnipotence) and his omniscience and sovereignty over nature. He knew from all eternity that the ancient Israelites would complain in the wilderness about not having meat (longing for their wonderful time of slavery in Egypt), and he knew (if the natural explanation is what actually happened) that quail would migrate across their path at precisely the time this murmuring came about.

I’m not opting for any of these scenarios. I’m simply saying that it is entirely possible (and no less glorying to God) that a natural explanation (that can be explored through our knowledge of bird migration) could account for the abundance of quail. If that is the case, the inspired, infallible Bible would again be accurate in reporting what happened (as it always is).

A theologically liberal or skeptical mentality does exist, whereby every miracle in the Bible is “explained away” by natural processes because of disbelief in all miracles from the outset. I detest that, and it’s not at all my own position. Rather, mine is a view that fully accepts the possibility and factuality of actual divine, supernatural miracles, while at the same time recognizing that God’s omniscience and omnipotence, providence and sovereignty are such that he can and does also incorporate natural events into his divine plans for the human race and the accomplishment of his will.

Near Eastern Archaeological Periods

Bronze Age (3300 B.C.–1200 B.C.):

Early Bronze Age I 3300 B.C.–3000 B.C.
Early Bronze Age II 3000 B.C.–2700 B.C.
Early Bronze Age III 2700 B.C.–2200 B.C.
Early Bronze Age IV 2200 B.C.–2000 B.C.
Middle Bronze Age I 2000 B.C.–1750 B.C.
Middle Bronze Age II 1750 B.C.–1650 B.C.
Middle Bronze Age III 1650 B.C.–1550 B.C.
Late Bronze Age I 1550 B.C.–1400 B.C.
Late Bronze Age IIA 1400 B.C.–1300 B.C.
Late Bronze Age IIB 1300 B.C.–1200 B.C.

Iron Age (1200 B.C.–586 B.C.):

Iron Age I A 1200 B.C.–1150 B.C.
Iron Age I B 1150 B.C.–1000 B.C.
Iron Age II A 1000 B.C.–900 B.C.
Iron Age II B 900 B.C.–700 B.C.
Iron Age II C 700 B.C.–586 B.C.

Timeline of the Patriarchs

Following the scholarly maximalist timeline of Kenneth
Kitchen and others (none “fundamentalists”) who regard
the Bible as historically accurate, here are the approximate
dates of early biblical figures and patriarchs and events. I
will be provisionally utilizing these dates in my treatment
of these figures and events in this book. (4)

Noah and the Flood—c. 2900 B.C.

Patriarchs—c. 1900–1600 B.C.
(“2000–1500 at the outermost limits”)

Abraham—born c. 1880–1860 B.C.

Isaac—born c. 1850–1820 B.C.

Jacob—born c. 1775 B.C.

Joseph—born c. 1737–1717 B.C. The Bible states that he
was seventeen when sold into slavery (Gen. 37:2).

Moses—c. 1340 or 1330–c. 1220 or 1210 B.C.,
extrapolating from Kitchen’s date for the Exodus

Exodus from Egypt—c. 1260–1250 B.C.

Israeli “Conquest” of Canaan—c. 1220 or 1210–c.
1170 or 1160 B.C.

FOOTNOTES

1 Nelson Glueck, Rivers in the Desert (New York: Farrar Strauss and Cudahy, 1959), 31.
2 Kenneth A. Kitchen, On the Reliability of the Old Testament (Grand Rapids and Cambridge: Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing, 2003), 469.
3 Thomas L. Thompson, The Historicity of the Patriarchal Narratives (Harrisburg, PA: Trinity Press International, 2002), 2.
4 The dates in this timeline are drawn from Kenneth A. Kitchen, On the Reliability of the Old Testament.

***

Summary: Introduction to Catholic apologist Dave Armstrong’s volume: The Word Set in Stone: How Archaeology, Science, and History Back up the Bible (Catholic Answers Press).

2023-12-31T18:56:06-04:00

[click on the cover to see a much larger image]

[published by Catholic Answers Press on March 15, 2023; 271 pages]

[See purchase information at the bottom of the page]

[Note: the artifact on the cover is the “Isaiah bulla”: discovered in 2018, and very likely connected with the prophet Isaiah (8th-7th c. BC)]

A Personal Word from the Author: My Excitement Over My Upcoming Book [Facebook, 2-28-23]

15 Archaeological Proofs of Old Testament Accuracy (short summary points from the book) [National Catholic Register, 3-23-23]

15 Archaeological Proofs of New Testament Accuracy (short summary points from the book) [National Catholic Register, 3-30-23]

“Dig Deep and Defend the Bible” [promotional article, Catholic Answers Magazine, 10 July 2023]

Reply to a criticism of the book: God’s Providence, Miracles & Natural Events [4-20-23]

See also my follow-up free “book”: The Word Set in Stone: “Volume Two”More Evidence of Archaeology, Science, and History Backing Up the Bible (100 sections) [5-25-23]

* * * * * See Catholic Answers’ Promotional Video for the Book * * * * *

 

TABLE OF CONTENTS   

Dedication (p. 5) [read below]

Acknowledgments (p. 9) [read below]
Introduction (p. 11) [read online]

1. Search for the Garden of Eden (p. 19) [read at Amazon’s “Look Inside” feature]
2. Noah’s Flood: How It Could Have Happened (p. 29)
3. Walking the Journey of Abraham (p. 48) [read online]
4. Sodom Obliterated (p. 54) [read online]
5. Joseph in Egypt (p. 60)
6. The Curious Case of Camels (p. 72)
7. Out of Egypt with Moses (p. 81)
8. The Ten Plagues and Their Aftermath (p. 96) [excerpt: 6 Biblical Plagues Explained by Science]
9. The Red Sea, and Miracles in the Desert (p. 109) [excerpts: Parting the Red SeaMoses & Water from Rocks]
10. Joshua and the Conquest of Canaan (p. 125)
11. King David Versus King Arthur (p. 139) [excerpt: first 4 1/2 pages online]
12. Digging Up Proofs of the Prophets (p. 152) [excerpt: Daniel & the Lion’s Den & History]
13. Astronomers Track the Star of Bethlehem (p. 174) [excerpt: “The Star Went Before Them”: Retrograde Motion and the Phenomenological Language of the Bible] 
14. St. Luke Knows His Stuff (p. 194) [excerpt: Herod Agrippa I “Eaten By Worms”: Myth or Plausible?] [excerpt: archaeology & Nazareth] [Luke’s minute historical accuracy]
15. St. John Wraps It Up (p. 215) [read online]

Postscript (p. 221) [read below]
Appendix A: Yes, There Were Camels (p. 223)
Appendix B: The Wrath of Joshua (p. 225)
About the Author (p. 237) [read below]
Endnotes [392 of ’em!] (p. 239)

DEDICATION

To my three grandchildren: Cecilia Joy, Estelle Marie,
and Joseph Charles. May you always love and serve our
wonderful Lord, who blessed Judy and me with you,
and we pray that you will always attain your desires and
dreams. Tons of love to you from “Papa” and “G’ma.”

ACKNOWLEDGMENTS

I’d like to express my admiration and appreciation for all the good folks at Catholic Answers—in particular, Jimmy Akin and Tim Staples. God bless all of you at “CA,” and thanks for your dedication and service.

I would like especially to thank the editors of Catholic Answers. I’ve repeatedly worked with Todd Aglialoro since 2003, when he accepted (after a seven-year wait for me!) and edited my first published book, A Biblical Defense of Catholicism. I owe him a great debt of gratitude as an author and apologist. Drew Belsky, the content editor at Catholic Answers, with whom I worked directly on this volume, immeasurably improved it with his suggestions and insight. Editors are the unsung heroes who lie behind good books. I could never do all the hard work that they do (a labor of love), which makes me admire it all the more.

Lastly, I sincerely thank the atheists—particularly Jonathan M.S. Pearce—with whom I engaged in dialogue on archaeological matters for well over a year. This book would not exist were it not for them. My hope and prayer is that some of them will be persuaded (with the necessary aid of God’s grace) by the evidence herein that they invariably demand to see.

POSTSCRIPT

Most of the things I have dealt with in this chapter and throughout the entire book will never be heard about in a Sunday sermon or a Sunday school class or a Wednesday-night Bible study. They should be, because they demonstrate that the Bible and science and reason are not at odds at all, and that is a sorely needed emphasis. But they’re not, so people must deliberately seek them out and learn about them in books like this and related apologetics and archaeological articles.

New archaeological discoveries in relation to the Bible continue to be made all the time. It’s an exciting period for biblical archaeology. Ten years from now (mark my words!), an entire book could likely be filled with just the new Bible-related discoveries in Israel from now until then. The Bible’s historical trustworthiness has been verified in the pages of this book. The new finds that will keep arriving will verify it all the more.

How can I say that before the fact? Because archaeology has remarkably substantiated the biblical text, again and again, over the past 150 years, and especially the last thirty years. Therefore, we have little or no reason to believe that future discoveries won’t continue to do the same thing. The pattern has long since been set.

Perhaps Bible believers like me can be forgiven if we indulge in a little bit of gratuitous “I told you so!” or “That doesn’t surprise me in the slightest!” rhetoric now and then, after hearing of the latest corroboration of the Bible from secular archaeology.

Having reached the end of this volume, I’d like to add a personal touch and a wish. My own Christian faith, though it was fairly strong already, has been strengthened all the more in researching and writing this book. It’s my hope that readers who already identify as Christians (or practicing Jews, for that matter, who can also resonate with most of this book, since it concentrates on the Hebrew Bible) will have the same experience.

Perhaps also skeptics and unbelievers will, after reading this volume, consider more seriously the proposal and the possibility that this Bible we’re familiar with, to varying degrees, is something quite special. I submit that they must admit, in honesty (having read this book and its hundreds of demonstrations), that the Bible is historically accurate—a necessary aspect of divine inspiration, though I have not attempted to prove the latter in this book and don’t expect an atheist to easily accept that much deeper and more complex belief.

This project began in discussions with atheists, and so it’s appropriate to end it with an appeal to reason, open-mindedness, and a challenge to all skeptics. Let them be intellectually courageous enough to open themselves to archaeological and other scientific evidence, and solid historical research, when it comes to the Bible—and to not to make the Bible a special exception to the normal rules of demonstration, as if it can’t possibly be verified by such evidences, just as any other document can.

Thanks for reading, and for joining me on this journey!

ABOUT THE AUTHOR

Dave Armstrong is the author of fifty-one books: ten published by major Catholic publishers, with several bestsellers. He has defended Christianity as an apologist since 1981 and Catholicism in particular since 1990 (full-time since 2001). His blog, Biblical Evidence for Catholicism, went online in 1997 and contains more than 4,000 articles. Dave has been a regular columnist for National Catholic Register since 2016, and has additionally been published in Catholic Answers MagazineThe Catholic World ReportCatholic Herald, and several other well-known Catholic periodicals.

BACK COVER

[click on the cover to see a much larger image]

BLURBS / ENDORSEMENTS

“Dave Armstrong has put together a masterful work that makes the claims of Sacred Scripture & Sacred Tradition shine bright when examined through the lens of archaeology. Dave’s book is not only a powerful tour de force, but it is composed for the scholar and lay reader alike. It is nearly impossible to find such a fantastic piece of work written from a Catholic perspective like The Word Set in Stone. This is a perfect book for any season.” (William Albrëcht: international speaker and debater who has participated in over 65 live and moderated debates. He frequently appears on EWTN and Virgin Most Powerful Radio, and is the author of multiple Catholic apologetics books such as The Definitive Guide to Solving Biblical Questions about Mary. He runs the YouTube channel, Patristic Pillars)

“Archaeology, like other disciplines, can be interpreted differently and used to promote agendas. Often skeptics use certain misinterpretations of findings to debunk or refute the Jewish and Christian Scriptures. But in this punchy book, Armstrong presents evidence in a clear and astute manner that the archaeological evidence does indeed confirm the words and historicity of Scripture. He pushes back on the skeptics and hits on some of the most heated topics, demonstrating that archaeology is actually a bedrock of confirmation. History and archaeology do not contradict the written Word, though many wish they did. Armstrong presents convincing arguments to assure novice and scholar alike that Scripture is accurate, from every discipline by which it is analyzed.” (Steve Ray: apologist, Holy Land tour guide, lecturer, webmaster, author of five books, and host of the multi-part video series highlighting biblical and other Christian sites, Footprints of God)

“Popular works that vindicate the Bible through archaeology and science line bookshelves in evangelical bookstores, but rarely does one find anything comparable in Catholic bookstores; that is, until now. Dave Armstrong has filled this need through a well-written, spirited defense of Holy Scripture, using cutting-edge research and other discoveries. I highly recommend The Word Set in Stone to anyone who wonders whether the Bible is grounded in history.” (Gary Michuta: Apologist, webmaster, lecturer, podcast host, and author of many books, including Why Catholic Bibles Are Bigger, Hostile Witnesses, and Making Sense of Mary. See his website)

“Christian apologist David Armstrong’s new book is a wonderful gift to the believing community. He refutes the disbelieving skeptic’s assertions by providing the reader with positive arguments for the biblical data. I found Armstrong’s offering deeply satisfying intellectually as well as deepening my Christian faith. It’s a fantastic resource. Highly recommended as a book not just to read and put on the shelf, but to access and reference for the rest of one’s life.” (Dr. Paul Patton, former Reformed Baptist pastor, Professor Emeritus of Communication and Media at Spring Arbor University, and writer of over thirty produced stage and radio plays. Learn more about his credentials and activities and read the longer version of this blurb).
***
“Many non-Christians have sought to discredit the events described in the Bible by appealing to archaeology and pointing out the evidence–or lack of evidence–of various places, people, and happenings, and Christians have been on the defensive against such attacks over the past century. But when treated fairly, the archaeological and historical evidence that has been discovered actually offers a compelling argument for the Bible! Armstrong draws out the most important evidence. The book is one of those necessary volumes that we Christians need to readily defend the truth of the Bible on the natural level. Otherwise Catholics are left flat-footed when the village atheist spouts off about how the Bible is so much made up, discredited hogwash. It takes someone like Armstrong carefully going through the studies and literature to piece together a counter-argument so that we faithful people can offer rejoinders and say “not so fast!” The book bolstered the reasons supporting my own faith.” (Devin Rose, apologist, webmaster, and author of seven books, including The Protestant’s Dilemma and Navigating the Tiber)
***
“In The Word Set in Stone, Dave Armstrong has provided us with a fascinating and thought-provoking journey through the biblical record and how it compares with the findings of archaeology.  Once I picked up this book, it was hard to put it down!” (Marcellino D’Ambrosio, Ph.D.; doctorate in historical theology from Catholic University of America, author of Exploring the Catholic Church and Guide to the Passion: 100 Questions about the Passion of the Christ, which was a New York Times best-seller and has sold over 500,000 copies)
***
“The book is scholarly but not abstruse.  He documents every contention carefully. He repeatedly demolishes the contentions of biblical  “minimalists” who attempt to discredit Scripture by claiming that one or another aspect of the Scriptural narrative is not possible. Christian readers who are not Roman Catholics should not simply chalk this up as a “Catholic book” and not read it.  As a Lutheran theologian, I can say that nothing in the book rests on ecclesiastical authority.  It contains a great many things people ought to know and upholds the principle of the Bible’s truthfulness. Much of it is absolutely brilliant. It is all firmly based in Scripture and credible archaeological research.  This book should be on the bookshelf of everyone who is interested in biblical apologetics but has shied away from books on the subject. I would suggest that this book is worthy company to the books of Lutheran John Warwick Montgomery and Anglican C.S. Lewis, and it has my endorsement.” (Rev. Dr. Ken Howes,  STM, JD, Professor of Theology and Lutheran Pastor [LCMS]; former student of the great apologist John Warwick Montgomery)
***
“Dave Armstrong has provided an invaluable service to Christians who feel intimidated by biblical skeptics. After years of dialogue with atheists and painstaking research, he shows that science and archaeology actually support the historicity of the Sacred Scriptures. His approach is neither that of a young-earth biblical fundamentalist nor that of a modernist critic. Instead, his aim is to show that the biblical stories—when properly understood—are authentic historical accounts and not mere myths. Those who wonder whether there is any historical foundation for the Garden of Eden, the Great Flood, the destruction of Sodom, the crossing of the Red Sea, the reign of King David, and the Star of Bethlehem will find this book fascinating and illuminating.” (Robert L. Fastiggi, Ph.D. Bishop Kevin M. Britt Chair of Dogmatic Theology and Christology, Sacred Heart Major Seminary, Detroit, Michigan)
***
“There are dishonest skeptics and honest ones. I’d been both in my past life. I had once attacked Christianity using intellectual-sounding arguments, when my true motive was that I didn’t like the message. But Christ’s love expressed by believers showing me respect won me over (at least part way). Then there was the time when I wanted to believe, but intellectual doubts got in the way. Forty years ago, a book called Evidence that Demands a Verdict by Josh McDowell helped me immensely overcome these difficulties. It didn’t necessarily “prove” Christianity, but gave it an air of credibility, so I could embrace the faith without feeling that I was throwing my brain away. Dave Armstrong’s new book, The Word Set in Stone, addresses both aspects of my former self. He listens and tries to be fair to his critics, even admitting that they may, at times, have a point. This loving approach is very winsome, in my opinion. Regarding myself: the honest skeptic, Dave’s book is in the tradition of McDowell. It is extremely well-researched, presenting in rapid-fire succession, quotes from world-renowned experts in the field of archaeology and other disciplines. This is heady stuff, but The Word Set in Stone is popularly-written so laymen like me can easily understand. Besides all this, I am also impressed by how up-to-date Dave’s information is (as recent as 2022!).” (Dan Grajek, author of Moon People: A Smug Dearborn College Kid Gets Schooled by the Road and the Cult)
***
“In the end, it was a very enjoyable read, and the book continuously amazed and delighted me. For those who enjoy both studying scripture and delving into historical and scientific questions, Dave Armstrong’s The Word Set in Stone is something you will not want to miss.” (Dr. Pedro Gabriel, oncologist and author of The Orthodoxy of Amoris Laetitia [2022]; see full review)
***

REVIEWS AND INTERVIEWS

Soundbites from Glowing Reviews [8-24-23]

Lutheran Professor Ken Howes (A Biblical Defense of Catholicism, 4-17-23)

Interview with John DeRosa of the Classical Theism website [7-14-23]

Fr. Matthew P. Schneider, LC (“the autistic priest”): “Good Apologetic Summary of Biblical Archeology” [read also on my Facebook page] [8-21-23] 

Archaeological, scientific, and historical evidence for the Bible (Dr. Pedro Gabriel, Where Peter Is, 11-6-23)

PURCHASE OPTIONS

[Order from Amazon (Paperback: $21.95 / Kindle: $9.99) ]

[Order the paperback from the publisher: $18.95 / E-Book (ePub + mobi): $12.99]

[Order from Barnes & Noble: paperback: $21.95]

***

Summary: Book page for Catholic apologist Dave Armstrong’s volume: The Word Set in Stone: How Archaeology, Science, and History Back up the Bible (Catholic Answers Press).

***

Updated on 31 December 2023

2022-12-15T13:42:36-04:00

Atheist and anti-theist Bob Seidensticker runs the influential Cross Examined blog. I have critiqued 80 of his posts, but he hasn’t counter-replied to any of them. Nevertheless, he was gracious enough to send me a free e-book copy of his new volume, 2-Minute Christianity: 50 Big Ideas Every Christian Should Understand (May 2022). He (unsurprisingly) declined to discuss it back-and-forth, but at least we were civil and cordial. Since I have responded to so much of his material, over four-and-a-half years, I decided to see how many of the 50 issues raised by this book have already, in effect, been “resolved” in my existing writings. And I’ll add a few present responses as well. His words will be in blue.

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Bob writes in his Introduction: “Is Christianity true? If it is, it can withstand critique. If you have a religious belief, it should be grounded by evidence and reason.” The blurb on the Amazon book page adds: “If God wanted mindless faith, he wouldn’t have given you a mind.” Yep; I couldn’t agree more. That’s what I have devoted my life’s work to: offering evidence and reason for all aspects of the Christian faith (what is called “apologetics”). And so I’ll apply that goal to this book. It offers critiques; here I offer solid, superior Christian answers to them. Let the reader decide who has made a better, more convincing case. 

1 Map of World Religions

Let’s return to the map of world religions. Religions claim to give answers to life’s big questions, answers that science can’t give. . . . But the map shows that the religious answers to those questions depend on where you are. . . . We ask the most profound questions of all, and the answers are location specific? What kind of truth depends on location?

38 Christianity Without Indoctrination

39 The Monty Hall Problem

48 Religion Reflects Culture

No truth depends on location; I fully agree. I don’t deny that people’s opinions mostly arise from their environment (“we are what we eat”). But I go on to note that atheists are no different. So, for example, in England about 50% of the population is non-religious (which comes down to atheist or “practical atheist” — which I used to be, myself, up until age 18: living one’s life as if God doesn’t exist).

Therefore, by the very same reasoning that Bob offers, I’d bet good money that in twenty years from now, the atheist population will remain at least this high and maybe grow. And why would that be, if so? It’s precisely because most people adopt the religion or other worldview of their parents. So the atheist growing up in an intensely secularized English home will (big shock!) likely turn out to be an atheist, just as ostensibly Christian environments churn out Christians: at least in name only (sadly, often not much more).

Bob’s buddy and fellow Internet anti-theist John Loftus is very big on this argument. He calls it “the outsider test of faith.” I answered his argument over fifteen years ago, and (as usual) he decided not to grapple with my critique. Here is part of what I wrote:

Religion needs to be held with a great deal more rationality and self-conscious analysis for the epistemological basis and various types of evidences for one’s own belief. I believe everyone should study to know why they believe what they believe.

This “one becomes whatever their surroundings dictate” argument can be turned around as a critique of atheism. Many atheists — though usually not born in that worldview — nevertheless have decided to immerse themselves in atheist / skeptical literature and surround themselves with others of like mind. And so they become confirmed in their beliefs. We are what we eat. In other words, one can voluntarily decide to shut off other modes and ways of thinking in order to “convince” themselves of a particular viewpoint. That is almost the same mentality as adopting a religion simply because “everyone else” in a culture does so, or because of an accident of birth. People can create an “accident of one-way reading” too.

My position, in contrast, is for people to read the best advocates of any given debate and see them interact with each other. That’s why I do so many dialogues. John Loftus could write these papers, and they may seem to be wonderfully plausible, until someone like me comes around to point out the fallacies in them and to challenge some of the alleged facts. Read both sides. Exercise your critical faculties. Don’t just read only Christians or only atheists. Look for debates where both sides know their stuff and have the confidence to defend themselves and the courage and honesty to change their opinions if they have been shown that truth and fact demand it.

Another related “turn the tables” argument along these lines is to note that many famous atheists had either no fathers, or terrible ones, with whom they had little relationship (as I have written about). They projected that onto God as the Cosmic Father and rejected Him.

This was true with regard to atheists such as Freud, Marx, Feuerbach, Baron d’Holbach, Bertrand Russell, Nietzsche, Sartre, Camus, Schopenhauer, Hobbes, Samuel Butler, H. G. Wells, Carlyle, Madalyn Murray O’Hair, and Albert Ellis. Theology based on family relations or lack thereof? That’s hardly a rational or objective analysis. That proves nothing. But there you have it: many atheists have this background: a “map of atheist families” so to speak.

2 A Leaky Ark

This is not one sustained argument, but the typical atheist “100 questions at once” routine. No one can possibly answer all these questions at once (which is why this cynical tactic is often used), unless they have made a sustained, in-depth study of the matter, as I have.

To see the many articles I’ve written about it, please visit my Bible & Archaeology / Bible & Science collection, and  word-search “Noah’s Flood” and “Flood & Noah” for all the resources. Here I’ll make brief replies to a sampling of four of Bob’s innumerable rapid-fire “gotcha”” questions.

It would have required tens of thousands of big trees. Where did the wood come from?

We know that wood was available in northern Mesopotamia around 2900 BC (when and where I posit that a local Flood occurred) and could be shipped down the Tigris and Euphrates rivers to the plains where wood was scarce.

How could all the world’s species fit on board?

They didn’t have to, since it was a local Mesopotamian flood.

What did the carnivores eat while on the voyage?

I suggested a possible solution to that in a 2015 article.

A worldwide flood would have buried the bodies of animals from the same ecosystem together. . . . The fossil record doesn’t show this. . . . Geologists tell us there is no evidence for a worldwide flood, . . . 

Again, educated Catholics and Protestants alike have believed that the Flood was local, not worldwide (and that the Bible, rightly interpreted, is fully harmonious with this view), for well over a hundred years now. I addressed this straw man in a reply to atheist Jonathan MS Pearce a few months back.

3 The Bible’s Shortsighted View of the Universe

Here Bob mocks biblical cosmology, which he clearly doesn’t understand very well; and so he presents the usual caricatured, warped view of the biblical skeptic. I’ve written many articles along these lines:

Biblical Flat Earth (?) Cosmology: Dialogue w Atheist (vs. Matthew Green) [9-11-06]

Flat Earth: Biblical Teaching? (vs. Ed Babinski) [9-17-06]

Genesis Contradictory (?) Creation Accounts & Hebrew Time: Refutation of a Clueless Atheist “Biblical Contradiction” [5-11-17]

Seidensticker Folly #21: Atheist “Bible Science” Absurdities [9-25-18]

Seidensticker Folly #23: Atheist “Bible Science” Inanities, Pt. 2 [10-2-18]

Carrier Critique #3: Bible Teaches a Flat Earth? [3-31-22]

4 Christianity as Society’s Burden

The period when Christianity was in charge in Europe didn’t stand out for the flowering of science and technology. There was innovation during the medieval period (eyeglasses, the water wheel, metal armor and gunpowder weapons, castles, crop rotation, and others), but that was in spite of Christianity, not because of it.

10 The Society that Christianity Gave Us

47 Christianity’s Big Promises

This is sheer nonsense and myth. Eminent physicist Paul Davies (as far as I can tell, a pantheist) stated in his 1995 Templeton Prize Address:

All the early scientists such as Newton were religious in one way or another. … science can proceed only if the scientist adopts an essentially theological world view.

Philosopher Alfred North Whitehead (1861-1947) expressed the same notion in his book Science and the Modern World (1925):

The inexpugnable belief that every detailed occurrence can be correlated with its antecedents in a perfectly definite manner … must come from the medieval insistence on the rationality of God …

My explanation is that the faith in the possibility of science, generated antecedently to the development of modern scientific theory, is an unconscious derivative from medieval theology.

One of the leading philosophers of science, Thomas Kuhn (1922-1996), elucidated the medieval background in his book, The Copernican Revolution (New York: Vintage Books / Random House, 1959):

After the Dark Ages the Church began to support a learned tradition as abstract, subtle, and rigorous as any the world has known … The Copernican theory evolved within a learned tradition sponsored and supported by the Church … (p. 106)

The centuries of scholasticism are the centuries in which the tradition of ancient science and philosophy was simultaneously reconstituted, assimilated, and tested for adequacy. As weak spots were discovered, they immediately became the foci for the first effective research in the modern world. … And more important than these is the attitude that modern scientists inherited from their medieval predecessors: an unbounded faith in the power of human reason to solve the problems of nature. (p. 123)

Loren Eiseley, an anthropologist, educator, philosopher, and natural science writer, who received more than 36 honorary degrees, and was himself an agnostic in religious matters, observed:

It is the Christian world which finally gave birth in a clear articulated fashion to the experimental method of science itself … It is surely one of the curious paradoxes of history that science, which professionally has little to do with faith, owes its origins to an act of faith that the universe can be rationally interpreted, and that science today is sustained by that assumption. (Darwin’s Centenary: Evolution and the Men who Discovered it, New York: Doubleday: 1961, p. 62)

In my research, I have discovered that Christians or theists were the founders of at least 115 different scientific fields (see the entire list). Here are a select 49 from that list (an asterisk denotes a Catholic priest):

  • Anatomy, Comparative: Georges Cuvier (1769-1832)  Astronomy, Big Bang Cosmology: Georges Lemaître (1894-1966*)
  • Atomic Theory: Roger Boscovich (1711-1787*) John Dalton (1766-1844)
  • Bacteriology: Louis Pasteur (1822-1895)
  • Biochemistry: Franciscus Sylvius (1614-1672) / Antoine Lavoisier (1743-1794)
  • Biology / Natural History: John Ray (1627-1705)
  • Calculus: Blaise Pascal (1623-1662)
  • Cardiology: William Harvey (1578-1657)
  • Chemistry: Robert Boyle (1627-1691)
  • Dynamics: Isaac Newton (1642-1727)
  • Electrodynamics: André-Marie Ampère (1775-1836) / James Clerk Maxwell (1831-1879)
  • Electromagnetics: André-Marie Ampère (1775-1836) / Michael Faraday (1791-1867) / Joseph Henry (1797-1878) /
  • James Clerk Maxwell (1831-1879)
  • Electronics: Michael Faraday (1791-1867) / John Ambrose Fleming (1849-1945)
  • Genetics: Gregor Mendel (1822-1884*)
  • Geology: Blessed Nicolas Steno (1638-1686*) / James Hutton (1726-1797)
  • Geophysics: Jose de Acosta (1540-1600*)
  • Hydraulics: Leonardo da Vinci (1452-1519) / Blaise Pascal (1623-1662)
  • Hydrodynamics: Blaise Pascal (1623-1662)
  • Mechanics, Celestial: Johannes Kepler (1571-1630)
  • Mechanics, Classical: Isaac Newton (1642-1727)
  • Mechanics, Quantum: Max Planck (1858-1947) / Werner Heisenberg (1901-1976)
  • Mechanics, Wave: Erwin Schrödinger (1887-1961)
  • Meteorology: Evangelista Torricelli (1608-1647) / Lazzaro Spallanzani (1729-1799*)
  • Neurology: Charles Bell (1774-1842)
  • Paleontology: John Woodward (1665-1728)
  • Paleontology, Vertebrate: Georges Cuvier (1769-1832)
  • Pathology: Marie François Xavier Bichat (1771-1802) / Thomas Hodgkin (1798-1866) / Rudolph Virchow (1821-1902)
  • Physics, Atomic: Joseph J. Thomson (1856-1940)
  • Physics, Classical: Isaac Newton (1642-1727)
  • Physics, Experimental: Galileo Galilei (1564-1642)
  • Physics, Mathematical: Johannes Kepler (1571-1630) / Christiaan Huygens (1629-1695) / Isaac Newton (1642-1727)
  • Physics, Nuclear: Ernest Rutherford (1871-1937)
  • Physics, Particle: John Dalton (1766-1844)
  • Physiology: William Harvey (1578-1657)
  • Probability Theory: Pierre de Fermat (c. 1607-1665) / Blaise Pascal (1623-1662) / Christiaan Huygens (1629-1695)
  • Scientific Method: Francis Bacon (1561-1626) / Galileo Galilei (1564-1642) / Pierre Gassendi (1592-1655*)
  • Seismology: John Michell (1724-1793)
  • Stellar Spectroscopy: Pietro Angelo Secchi (1818-1878*) / Sir William Huggins (1824-1910)
  • Stratigraphy: Blessed Nicolas Steno (1638-1686*)
  • Surgery: Ambroise Paré (c. 1510-1590)
  • Taxonomy: Carol Linnaeus (1707-1778)
  • Thermochemistry: Antoine Lavoisier (1743-1794)  Thermodynamics: James Joule (1818-1889) / Lord Kelvin (1824-1907)
  • Thermodynamics, Chemical: Josiah Willard Gibbs (1839-1903)  Thermodynamics, Statistical: James Clerk Maxwell (1831-1879)  Thermokinetics: Humphrey Davy (1778-1829)
  • Transplantology: Alexis Carrel (1873-1944) Joseph Murray (b. 1919)
  • Volcanology: Athanasius Kircher (1602–1680*) / Lazzaro Spallanzani (1729-1799*) / James Dwight Dana (1813-1895)  Zoology: Conrad Gessner (1516-1565)

See also:

Reply to Atheist Scientist Jerry Coyne: Are Science and Religion Utterly Incompatible? [7-13-10]

Christianity: Crucial to the Origin of Science [8-1-10]

Books by Dave Armstrong: Science and Christianity: Close Partners or Mortal Enemies? [10-20-10]

Albert Einstein’s “Cosmic Religion”: In His Own Words [originally 2-17-03; expanded greatly on 8-26-10]

Atheist French, Soviet, & Chinese Executions of Scientists [10-22-15]

Loftus Atheist Error #7: Christian Influence on Science [9-9-19]

The Bible is Not “Anti-Scientific,” as Skeptics Claim [National Catholic Register, 10-23-19]

The ‘Enlightenment’ Inquisition Against Great Scientists [National Catholic Register, 5-13-20]

Embarrassing Errors of Historical Science [National Catholic Register, 5-20-20]

Seidensticker Folly #44: Historic Christianity & Science [8-29-20]

5 Jesus, the Great Physician

15 The Bible Has No Recipe for Soap

In addition to soap, the Bible could have then added the basics of health care—when and how to use this soap, how boiling will purify water, how to build and site latrines, how to avoid polluting the water supply, how to respond to a plague, how germs transmit disease, the basics of nutrition, how to treat wounds, and so on. After health, it could outline other ways to improve society—low-tech ways to pump water, spin fiber, make metal alloys, keep livestock healthy, or improve crop yields.

Bob goes after the Bible as supposedly anti-medicine, because healings took place, and there is no recipe for soap. It’s not. I’ve written about this several times, too.

Demonic Possession or Epilepsy? (Bible & Science) [2015]

The Bible on Germs, Sanitation, & Infectious Diseases [3-16-20]

Bible on Germ Theory: An Atheist Hems & Haws (. . . while I offer a serious answer to his caricature regarding the Bible and genetics) [8-31-21]

6 Argument from Desire

Theistic Argument from Desire: Dialogue w Atheist [12-2-06]

Theistic Argument from Longing or Beauty, & Einstein [3-27-08; rev. 3-14-19]

Dialogue with an Agnostic: God as a “Properly Basic Belief” [10-5-15]

Implicit (Extra-Empirical) Faith, According to John Henry Newman [12-18-15]

Argument for God from Desire: Atheist-Christian Dialogue [8-7-17]

7 Psalm 22 Prophecy

Reply to Atheist on Messianic Prophecies (Zech 13:6, Ps 22) [7-3-10]

8 Ontological Argument

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9 Original Sin
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Trent Horn, “Is Original Sin Stupid?” (Catholic Answers, 7-10-18)
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Fr. Jerry J. Pokorski, “Original Sin, the Decoder of Human Nature” (Catholic Answers, 2-25-22)
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11 Paul’s Famous Creed
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Jesus “raised on the third day according to the Scriptures” is a reference to the book of Jonah (“Jonah was in the belly of the fish three days and three nights”), but the resurrection can’t be “according” to this scripture when the author of Jonah wasn’t making a prophecy. And this “prophecy” fails since Jesus was dead for only two nights, from Friday evening to Sunday morning.
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12 Christianity Answers Life’s Big Questions
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19 Kalam Cosmological Argument
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The only “begins to exist” we know of is the rearrangement of existing matter and energy. An oak tree begins with an acorn and builds itself from water, carbon dioxide, and other nutrients, but God supposedly created the universe ex nihilo (“out of nothing”). The apologist must then defend “Whatever begins to exist from nothing has a cause,” but there is no evidence to support this claim.
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16 Christianity Meets its Match [Mormonism]
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17 Euthyphro Dilemma
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Does God have such a fixed, external source of morality that he consults? Then Christians are caught on one horn of the dilemma. Or does the buck have to stop somewhere, and God is it? Then Christians are caught on the other horn. Neither makes God look good.
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18 Morality, Purpose, and Meaning
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Morality, purpose, and meaning don’t come from outside our world but have always been ours to define.
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34 Why Is Christianity Conservative?
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Perhaps most surprising is that Paul taught nothing about the Trinity, . . .
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This is dead-wrong and astonishingly ignorant . . . see his many many statements about the Trinity and deity of Christ in my compilations:
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Jesus is God: Hundreds of Biblical Proofs (RSV edition) [1982; rev. 2012]
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50 Biblical Proofs That Jesus is God [National Catholic Register, 2-12-17]
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21 God Loves the Smell of Burning Flesh
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22 Thought Experiment on Bible Reliability
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The time between when Matthew was written and our best copies, averaging the gap chapter by chapter, is two hundred years. It’s a little less for Luke and John and a little more for Mark. How do we know those books made it through that obscure dark period without significant change?
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31 25,000 New Testament Manuscripts
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I just wrote yesterday, in replying to another atheist:

The oldest extant manuscript for the Histories of the Greek historian Herodotus (c. 484 – c. 425 BC), for example, is Codex Laurentianus LXX, from the 10th century (see more information on his manuscripts). By my math that is 1300-1500 years after it was written. The History of the Peloponnesian War was written at the end of the 5th century BC by Thucydides (c. 460 – c. 400 BC). The earliest manuscript for it dates from the 11th century (1400-1500 years later). The Geography by Strabo (c. 64 BC – c. 24 AD) was composed shortly before the birth of Christ. The best manuscript is from the end of the tenth century (900-1,000 years later).

I think readers get the idea, without need of further examples. The moral of the story is: “don’t try to make out that biblical manuscripts or editorial / linguistic revisions, etc., are something wholly unique, or uniquely problematic.”

The classic example of extraordinary preservation of biblical texts is the complete Isaiah scroll from the Dead Sea Scrolls. One Christian website summarizes:

A significant comparison study was conducted with the Isaiah Scroll written around 100 B.C. that was found among the Dead Sea documents and the book of Isaiah found in the Masoretic text. After much research, scholars found that the two texts were practically identical. Most variants were minor spelling differences, and none affected the meaning of the text.

One of the most respected Old Testament scholars, the late Gleason Archer, examined the two Isaiah scrolls found in Cave 1 and wrote, “Even though the two copies of Isaiah discovered in Qumran Cave 1 near the Dead Sea in 1947 were a thousand years earlier than the oldest dated manuscript previously known (A.D. 980), they proved to be word for word identical with our standard Hebrew Bible in more than 95 percent of the text. The five percent of variation consisted chiefly of obvious slips of the pen and variations in spelling.”

So a measly two hundred years? That’s nothing . . .

23 Isaiah 53 Prophecy
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this suffering servant is likely the nation of Israel, punished through the Babylonian exile. This is also the traditional Jewish interpretation. In addition, any parallels between the Isaiah 53 “suffering servant” and Jesus are easily explained by the gospel authors using the Jewish scripture to embellish the gospels.
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24 Atheists Need the Christian Worldview
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“God did it” is no more useful or informative than “logic and arithmetic are just properties of our reality” or “that’s just the way it is” or even “I don’t know.” An interesting question has been suppressed, not resolved. In fact, by the theologian’s own reasoning, his answer rests in midair because he gives no reason to conclude God exists. His claim is no more believable than that from any other religion—that is, not at all.

The person who stops at “God did it” has stated an opinion only—an opinion with no evidence to support it. It doesn’t advance the cause of truth at all. Mathematics is tested, and it works. God is an unnecessary and unhelpful addition to the mix.

25 Transcendental Argument

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26 Women at the Tomb
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If Bob’s argument here were coherent and clear, I would provide some answer for it. But I read it three times and, for the life of me, I can’t figure out what in the world he is contending (it’s not the usual claim in resurrection disputes, of allegedly contradictory accounts), so I’ll pass. Bob’s writing — wrong though it invariably is  — is usually quite easy to understand. Since Bob won’t dialogue with me, I guess I’ll likely never find out. Not that I will lose any sleep over it or have an existential crisis . . .
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27 When God Lies
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God once lied through a prophet. King Ahab of Israel consulted his 400 prophets about an upcoming battle, and they assured him of success. Only one prophet predicted disaster, but he was correct. God wanted Ahab to die and authorized a spirit to cause the other prophets to lie to lure him into the battle.
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In the Exodus story, God hardened Pharaoh’s heart to prevent him from releasing the Israelites. The New Testament has God doing the same thing. To those destined for hell, “God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.”

The Jewish opponents of Jesus were treated the same way. They saw his miracles. They didn’t believe, but not because the evidence was poor, because they didn’t understand, or because they were stubborn. No, they didn’t believe because God deliberately prevented them from believing. “[God] has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts, so they can neither see with their eyes, nor understand with their hearts.” But why harden the hearts of bad people? Were they going to do bad things of their own accord or not?

Perhaps atheists also don’t believe because God hardened their hearts. If so, why do they deserve hell?

God “Hardening Hearts”: How Do We Interpret That? [12-18-08]

28 Fruits of Christianity

Now consider hospitals. Christians might point to medieval hospitals to argue that they were pioneers in giving us the medical system we know today, but without science, a hospital can do nothing but give food and comfort. Church-supported hospitals centuries ago were little more than almshouses or places to die.

Seidensticker Folly #59: Medieval Hospitals & Medicine [11-3-20]

Seidensticker Folly #60: Anti-Intellectual Medieval Christians? [11-4-20]

Medieval Christian Medicine Was the Forerunner of Modern Medicine [National Catholic Register, 11-13-20]

Carrier Critique #4: Bible & Disease & Medicine (+ Medical Advances Made in the Christian-Dominated Middle Ages) [3-31-22]

“Medieval medicine of Western Europe” (Wikipedia)

“Forget folk remedies, Medieval Europe spawned a golden age of medical theory” (Winston Black (professor of medieval history], The Conversation, 5-14-14)

“Medicine or Magic? Physicians in the Middle Ages” (William Gries, The Histories, Vol. 15, Issue 1, 2019)

“Top 10 Medical Advances from the Middle Ages” (Medievalists.Net, Nov. 2015). The ten advances are the following:

Hospitals / Pharmacies / Eyeglasses / Anatomy and Dissection / Medial Education in Universities / Ophthalmology and Optics / Cleaning Wounds / Caesarean sections / Quarantine / Dental amalgams

Scientific & Empiricist Church Fathers: To Augustine (d. 430) [2010]

Christian Influence on Science: Master List of Scores of Bibliographical and Internet Resources (Links) [8-4-10]

33 Empiricist Christian Thinkers Before 1000 AD [8-5-10]

23 Catholic Medieval Proto-Scientists: 12th-13th Centuries [2010]

St. Augustine: Astrology is Absurd [9-4-15]

Catholics & Science #1: Hermann of Reichenau [10-21-15]

Catholics & Science #2: Adelard of Bath [10-21-15]

A List of 244 Priest-Scientists [Angelo Stagnaro, National Catholic Register, 11-29-16]

A Short List of [152] Lay Catholic Scientists [Angelo Stagnaro, National Catholic Register, 12-30-16]

29 Christianity Looks Invented

historians of religion tell us Yahweh looks like other Canaanite deities of the time. There were other tribes in Canaan, and the Bible mentions these—for example, Ammon, Midian, and Edom, as well as Israel—and each had its own god. This I’ve-got-my-big-brother-and-you-have-yours approach is henotheism, halfway between polytheism (lots of gods, and each affects our world) and monotheism (just one god—any others are imposters). With henotheism, each tribe assigned itself its own god. They acknowledged the existence of the other tribes’ gods but worshipped only one. Moloch was the god of the Ammonites, Chemosh was the god of the Midianites, and Yahweh was the god of the Israelites.

Yahweh looks like nothing but one more invented god.

35 Biblical Polytheism

42 The Combat Myth

46 God’s Kryptonite

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The Bible Teaches That Other “Gods” are Imaginary [National Catholic Register, 7-10-20]
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30 The Ten Commandments

Most Christians know the story of Moses and the Ten Commandments, but few realize that God created two very different versions of the Law.

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Or look at the practice of Christianity today. Why is there a Bible Answer Man radio program, and why does GotQuestions.org boast that it has more than half a million Bible questions answered? Shouldn’t God’s message be so clear that there would be no questions to answer? Why are there 1600-page books on systematic theology—why would the study of a perfect god need this? Why is it so complicated? 

Bible “Difficulties” Are No Disproof of Biblical Inspiration [National Catholic Register, 6-29-19]

“Difficulty” in Understanding the Bible: Hebrew Cultural Factors [2-5-21]

An Omniscient God and a “Clear” Bible [National Catholic Register, 2-28-21]

33 Recreating Christianity

Now imagine that all knowledge of Christianity were lost as well. A new generation might make up something to replace it, since humans seem determined to find the supernatural in our world, but they wouldn’t recreate the same thing. There is no specific evidence of the Christian God around us today. The only evidence of God in our world is tradition and the Bible. Lose them, and Christianity would be lost forever.

Bob comes up with this thought experiment and then provides the Christian and biblical answer to it:

The Bible comments on our thought experiment. It claims, “Since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.” [Romans 1:20] But that’s exactly the problem—God is not clearly seen.

Having solved the problem, Bob simply denies that God is seen in His creation. Well, that’s his opinion. Virtually all of the greatest minds in the first several hundred years of scientific development agreed with this and were theists or Christians. So were many of the greatest philosophers in western civilization. They all saw what Bob can’t see. So how do we decide who is right? Even Einstein stated:

My religiosity consists of a humble admiration of the infinitely superior spirit that reveals itself in the little that we can comprehend about the knowable world. That deeply emotional conviction of the presence of a superior reasoning power, which is revealed in the incomprehensible universe, forms my idea of God. (To a banker in Colorado, 1927. Cited in the New York Times obituary, April 19, 1955)

Everyone who is seriously involved in the pursuit of science becomes convinced that a spirit is manifest in the laws of the universe — a spirit vastly superior to that of man . . . In this way the pursuit of science leads to a religious feeling of a special sort . . . (To student Phyllis Right, who asked if scientists pray; January 24, 1936)

Then there are the fanatical atheists . . . They are creatures who can’t hear the music of the spheres. (August 7, 1941)

My point is that perceiving God in the universe that He made is not utterly implausible or unable to be held by the most rigorous, “non-dogmatic” intellects, such as Albert Einstein and David Hume (who — contrary to a widespread myth — was a deist or “minimal theist” and actually accepted one form of the teleological argument). And the atheist has to account for that fact somehow, it seems to me. Hume wrote:

The order of the universe proves an omnipotent mind. (Treatise, 633n)

Wherever I see order, I infer from experience that there, there hath been Design and Contrivance . . . the same principle obliges me to infer an infinitely perfect Architect from the Infinite Art and Contrivance which is displayed in the whole fabric of the universe. (Letters, 25-26)

The whole frame of nature bespeaks an intelligent author; and no rational enquirer can, after serious reflection, suspend his belief a moment with regard to the primary principles of genuine Theism and Religion . . .

Were men led into the apprehension of invisible, intelligent power by a contemplation of the works of nature, they could never possibly entertain any conception but of one single being, who bestowed existence and order on this vast machine, and adjusted all its parts, according to one regular plan or connected system . . .

All things of the universe are evidently of a piece. Every thing is adjusted to every thing. One design prevails throughout the whole. And this uniformity leads the mind to acknowledge one author. (Natural History of Religion, 1757, ed. H.E. Root, London: 1956, 21, 26)

Now, I ask atheists: whence comes Einstein’s “deeply” felt “conviction” or Hume’s conclusion of “an infinitely perfect Architect”? Is it a philosophical reason or the end result of a syllogism? They simply have it. It is an intuitive or instinctive feeling or “knowledge” or “sense of wonder at the incredible, mind-boggling marvels of the universe” in those who have it. Bob doesn’t have this sense. But he has no rational or objective or logical basis with which to mock those — like Einstein and Hume — who do. Their experience is their own, just as Bob’s is his own: all equally valid in terms of the person’s subjective perspective or epistemological warrant.

36 Virgin Birth Prophecy

Reply to Atheist Jonathan MS Pearce: “Mistranslation” of “Virgin”? (Isaiah 7:14) (with Glenn Miller) [7-26-17]

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37 God’s Hiddenness
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40 Historians Reject the Bible Story
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Here Bob says that historians reject the Gospels because they contain miracles. It’s too broad of a statement. Not all historians do so. Meanwhile, there continues to be a lot of archaeological and historical confirmation of the Gospels’ historical trustworthiness:
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Pearce’s Potshots #64: Archaeology & 1st Century Nazareth [2-25-22]

Ehrman Errors #11: Luke the Unreliable Historian? (Debunking Yet More of the Endless Pseudo-“Contradictions” Supposedly All Over the Bible) [3-28-22]

King Herod Agrippa I (d. 44 AD) Eaten By Worms: Pure Myth & Nonsense or Scientifically Plausible? [Facebook, 10-8-22]

41 Who Wrote the Gospels?
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How do we know the apostle Mark wrote the gospel of Mark? How do we know Mark recorded the observations of Peter, an eyewitness?

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43 The Crucifixion
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Here, Bob delves into deep waters of Christian soteriology (the theology of salvation): talking off the top of his head. There is no point in wrangling with him about such matters. He doesn’t even understand the elementary things of Christianity. He could no more grasp this than a two-year-old could comprehend calculus or the theory of relativity. As Paul explained in 1 Corinthians 2:14: “The unspiritual man does not receive the gifts of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.”
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44 Finding Jesus Through Board Games
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This is scarcely an argument. It’s basically a totally subjective, biased thought experiment. It carries no force or challenge, and so it need not be replied to.
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45 Jesus on Trial
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This is no argument, either. Rather, it is a plea for folks to remain open-minded and open to a change of mind. As one who has undergone many major changes of mind in my life: in religion, morals, political positions, and other matters, I completely agree!
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49 Religions Continue to Diverge
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This gist of this is that “religious folks disagree, therefore, no single religious view can possibly be true, or even largely true.” This is “epistemological kindergarten” thinking, and as such, deserves no further attention.
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50 The Great Commission
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Here, Bob preaches to Christians, authoritatively interprets several biblical injunctions, and suggests we be more like atheists. Not an argument . . .
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***

Practical Matters: Perhaps some of my 4,000+ free online articles (the most comprehensive “one-stop” Catholic apologetics site) or fifty books have helped you (by God’s grace) to decide to become Catholic or to return to the Church, or better understand some doctrines and why we believe them.

Or you may believe my work is worthy to support for the purpose of apologetics and evangelism in general. If so, please seriously consider a much-needed financial contribution. I’m always in need of more funds: especially monthly support. “The laborer is worthy of his wages” (1 Tim 5:18, NKJV). 1 December 2021 was my 20th anniversary as a full-time Catholic apologist, and February 2022 marked the 25th anniversary of my blog.

PayPal donations are the easiest: just send to my email address: [email protected]. You’ll see the term “Catholic Used Book Service”, which is my old side-business. To learn about the different methods of contributing, including 100% tax deduction, etc., see my page: About Catholic Apologist Dave Armstrong / Donation InformationThanks a million from the bottom of my heart!

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Photo credit: cover of Bob Seidensticker’s 2-Minute Christianity: 50 Big Ideas Every Christian Should Understand [Amazon book page]

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Summary: I provide answers to atheist anti-theist Bob Seidensticker’s “2-Minute” anti-Christian arguments: neatly compiled into fifty two-page provocative, polemical queries.

 

 

2022-10-12T16:27:13-04:00

[book and purchase information]

Bruno Lima is a Brazilian Calvinist (and anti-Catholic) writer and apologist.

*****

I am responding to his article, “A Sola Scriptura é Auto-Refutável?” [Is Sola Scriptura Self-Refuting?] (11-3-17). His words will be in blue.

I have already dealt with the arguments most often used by papists against Sola Scriptura (here).

I’m the same on the opposite side. I’ve written three books about it (one / two / three), have an extremely extensive web page about the topic and larger authority issues, and have written and debated more about this than any other apologetics subject, among my 4,000+ online articles and fifty books. So this looks like it will be a good and substantive discussion. I hope Bruno actually defends his articles. I have recently critiqued Brazilian apologist Lucas Banzoli 34 times, and he never did so: not one word. I respect people who have the courage of their convictions.

Today I want to address a specific objection. Catholics claim that Sola Scriptura refutes itself as Scripture itself does not teach the idea.

Indeed, that is exactly the case, as I will demonstrate yet again, as I have many times through the years.

Generally, Protestants respond by attacking the premise and pointing to texts where Scripture teaches its own material and formal sufficiency.

That’s true, too, as a generality; and then Catholic apologists systematically show that all these supposed “proofs” miserably fail in their intended purpose.

I believe the Reformed principle is taught in Scripture implicitly. By this I mean that there is no text that says “Scripture is the only infallible rule of faith,” but there are a number of texts that put together imply the Reformed principle.

I look forward to seeing which passages Bruno thinks do this. This is the latest fad in defending the notion that sola Scriptura is taught in Scripture: that it is, but only indirectly and by deduction. I vehemently deny that, too. It’s fascinating how Protestant apologists are now often applying this new approach to their serious problem in this regard: flat-out admitting that no single text teaches sola Scriptura (true so far). But then they go on to claim (as Bruno will) that it doesn’t matter, anyway. I think, with all due respect, that this is desperation and special pleading.

I was shocked recently to see Lutheran pastor and apologist Jordan Cooper using this same “forfeit argument”. He stated in his video, “A Defense of Sola Scriptura (3-12-19):

I think the question that we have is: do we have to find a particular Scripture that says Scripture is the only authority? And I just don’t think we have to. We don’t. There’s nothing in — you can’t find — in any of Paul’s letters, for example, . . . “by the way, Scripture is the only authority and traditions are not an authority and there is no magisterium that is given some kind of infallible authority to pass on infallible teachings.” It seems like a lot of Roman Catholic apologists think that for Protestants to defend their position, that they have to find a text that says that.” [1:39-2:14]

How pathetic (if I do say so) that Protestant apologists have been so roundly defeated in this particular argument, that they readily concede that no Bible verse teaches it; after having spent some 480 years arguing that a host of Bible verses supposedly did so (with 2 Timothy 3:16 always leading the way!). One can certainly see ironic humor in this state of affairs.

This is the case for several other biblical teachings – the Trinity is an example. There is no text that says “Father, Son and Holy Spirit form a Trinity”. However, if we put together all that Scripture says about the three Persons, the implication is the teaching of the Trinity.

Bad choice of analogy. Literally forty years ago, when I first started writing serious apologetics (as an evangelical Protestant), I compiled the hundreds of biblical passages that — considered together — do definitely demonstrate the truth of trinitarianism. I’m still proud of that research and it has stood the test of time. There is, however, no similar set of passages that allegedly add up to the truth of sola Scriptura. It’s a fantasy; a pipe-dream.

I know; I’ve debated the topic with many of the leading defenders of the false doctrine in our time and have also critiqued the best historical defenders (Whitaker and Goode: highly recommended by James White, Luther, Calvin). The arguments fail without exception. It’s remarkable to observe such a bad and substanceless scriptural case being made for one of the two “pillars” of the Protestant Revolt, and the very basis of their unbiblically narrow rule of faith.

I would like to answer the objection on its own terms. Even though Sola Scriptura was not implicitly in Scripture, the Roman objection is false. Still, it wouldn’t be self-refuting. Let’s see:

(1) Scripture is the only infallible rule of faith;

(2) Only Scripture can say that Scripture is the only infallible rule of faith.

I agree that #2 is an obviously false statement. But it’s framing the issue in a wrong fashion. I would state #2 as follows, as part of my overall argument: “Only inspired Scripture can say infallibly, and as inspired revelation, that Scripture is the only infallible rule of faith.” And that is the basis of Protestantism’s internal difficulty in holding this unbiblical doctrine. Because of my proposition #2, their reasoning entails vicious self-contradiction, with no solution possible from within their own wildly incoherent and inconsistent reasoning. This will all be unpacked and laid out as we proceed.

Note that (1) is the definition of Sola Scriptura

I agree. It’s crucial to agree on definitions in any debate.

and (2) would be the way we could identify the article of faith.

That’s right. But the real issue is the authoritativeness (or rather, lack thereof) of such a statement, and whether it is proper to make it binding or not (from within the Protestant paradigm and rule of faith) if it’s not in the Bible itself. I say that attempting to do so results in insuperable logical difficulties: impossible to resolve. Anyone can state anything, and/or believe anything they want. But why do they believe it? On what epistemological grounds is their alleged “certainty” or (to express it another way) strong adherence based?

It turns out that (2) is not a necessary implication of (1).

I agree again, if we are talking strict logic. But the Christian faith is not mere logic and philosophy. We claim (all of us, in one way or another) to have certainty, based on God’s revelation to man. Simply having someone say, “Scripture is the only infallible rule of faith!” on no ultimate basis derived from Scripture, raises all sorts of problems for Protestantism that can’t be resolved, and which make a mockery of their centuries-old polemic against Catholic conceptions of sacred and apostolic tradition. It does that because it entails a “double epistemological standard”, whereby Catholics have to prove our views from Scripture (and we assuredly can do so, far more than they think) but the Protestant — strangely enough — gives himself a pass from doing so. It’s endless irony that this is how it is in these discussions.

It is entirely possible that there are no other rules even though Scripture does not say so.

I shall argue that there are indeed other rules (though always in harmony with Scripture) precisely because Scripture does say so: which in and of itself refutes sola Scriptura in one elegant step.

Roman apologists confuse the content of the rule with our knowledge of the rule.

We confuse nothing. Protestants have insufficient and inadequate knowledge to assert what they do about the rule of faith. They base everything else on Scripture, but then inexplicably make an exception for this: even when it’s about the nature of scriptural authority. Or if they do have such “knowledge”, it’s based on precisely the notion of “extrabiblical tradition” that they have bashed us for 500 years for believing. Truth is stranger than fiction again!

The content of the rule is infallible, but the epistemological basis on which we identify the rule need not necessarily be infallible.

Then why do they believe it in the first place?: is the question. In the end, in my opinion, it comes down to a reason of mere polemics and the reactionary impulse: “it’s not Catholic, so we believe it, even though we have no biblical or any other good reason to do so.” That’s how it began, when Martin Luther was backed into a corner in a debate in Leipzig in 1519, and adopted sola Scriptura as his “can’t do anything else” default position, and it’s been every bit as arbitrary and baseless and unbiblical ever since.

Now, there would be some ways in which the Catholic objection would be valid. If Protestants claimed that Scripture is the only source of truth (a straw man often used in debates), it would be self-refuting.

That’s right. And it’s true that this is a straw man too often used by Catholics uninformed about Protestant teachings. But I am not in that number. I properly understand it and also understand how it is logically and biblically inconsistent and incoherent.

Or if Scripture itself laid down other infallible rules. Despite attempts to use texts such as Matthew 16:18, Scripture does not point to infallible rules other than itself.

I’m glad to see that Bruno has already forfeited this debate. For indeed there are at least two scriptural arguments showing that the Church, too, is infallible (1 Timothy 3:15 and the Jerusalem Council of Acts 15). Here is my most concise presentation of the argument from 1 Timothy 3:15, from my book, 100 Biblical Arguments Against Sola Scriptura (Catholic Answers: 2012, pp. 104-107, #82):

1 Timothy 3:15  [RSV] if I am delayed, you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth.

Pillars and foundations support things and prevent them from collapsing. To be a “bulwark” of the truth, means to be a “safety net” against truth turning into falsity. If the Church could err, it could not be what Scripture says it is. God’s truth would be the house built on a foundation of sand in Jesus’ parable. For this passage of Scripture to be true, the Church could not err — it must be infallible. A similar passage may cast further light on 1 Timothy 3:15:

Ephesians 2:19-21 . . . you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, [20] built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, [21] in whom the whole structure is joined together and grows into a holy temple in the Lord;

1 Timothy 3:15 defines “household of God” as “the church of the living God.” Therefore, we know that Ephesians 2:19-21 is also referring to the Church, even though that word is not present. Here the Church’s own “foundation” is “the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone.” The foundation of the Church itself is Jesus and apostles and prophets.

Prophets spoke “in the name of the Lord” (1 Chron 21:19; 2 Chron 33:18; Jer 26:9), and commonly introduced their utterances with “thus says the Lord” (Is 10:24; Jer 4:3; 26:4; Ezek 13:8; Amos 3:11-12; and many more). They spoke the “word of the Lord” (Is 1:10; 38:4; Jer 1:2; 13:3, 8; 14:1; Ezek 13:1-2; Hos 1:1; Joel 1:1; Jon 1:1; Mic 1:1, et cetera). These communications cannot contain any untruths insofar as they truly originate from God, with the prophet serving as a spokesman or intermediary of God (Jer 2:2; 26:8; Ezek 11:5; Zech 1:6; and many more). Likewise, apostles proclaimed truth unmixed with error (1 Cor 2:7-13; 1 Tim 2:7; 2 Tim 1:11-14; 2 Pet 1:12-21).

Does this foundation have any faults or cracks? Since Jesus is the cornerstone, he can hardly be a faulty foundation. Neither can the apostles or prophets err when teaching the inspired gospel message or proclaiming God’s word. In the way that apostles and prophets are infallible, so is the Church set up by our Lord Jesus Christ. We ourselves (all Christians) are incorporated into the Church (following the metaphor), on top of the foundation.

1 Peter 2:4-9 Come to him, to that living stone, rejected by men but in God’s sight chosen and precious; [5] and like living stones be yourselves built into a spiritual house, to be a holy priesthood, to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. [6] For it stands in scripture: “Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone, a cornerstone chosen and precious, and he who believes in him will not be put to shame.” [7] To you therefore who believe, he is precious, but for those who do not believe, “The very stone which the builders rejected has become the head of the corner,” [8] and “A stone that will make men stumble, a rock that will make them fall”; for they stumble because they disobey the word, as they were destined to do. [9] But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God’s own people, that you may declare the wonderful deeds of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light. (cf. Isa 28:16)

Jesus is without fault or untruth, and he is the cornerstone of the Church. The Church is also more than once even identified with Jesus himself, by being called his “Body” (Acts 9:5 cf. with 22:4 and 26:11; 1 Cor 12:27; Eph 1:22-23; 4:12; 5:23, 30; Col 1:24). That the Church is so intimately connected with Jesus, who is infallible, is itself a strong argument that the Church is also infallible and without error.

Therefore, the Church is built on the foundation of Jesus (perfect in all knowledge), and the prophets and apostles (who spoke infallible truth, often recorded in inspired, infallible Scripture). Moreover, it is the very “Body of Christ.” It stands to reason that the Church herself is infallible, by the same token. In the Bible, nowhere is truth presented as anything less than pure truth, unmixed with error. That was certainly how Paul conceived his own “tradition” that he received and passed down.

Knowing what truth is, how can its own foundation or pillar be something less than total truth (since truth itself contains no falsehoods, untruths, lies, or errors)? It cannot. It is impossible. It is a straightforward matter of logic and plain observation. A stream cannot rise above its source. What is built upon a foundation cannot be greater than the foundation. If it were, the whole structure would collapse.

If an elephant stood on the shoulders of a man as its foundation, that foundation would collapse. The base of a skyscraper has to hold the weight above it. The foundations of a suspension bridge over a river have to be strong enough to support that bridge.

Therefore, we must conclude that if the Church is the foundation of truth, the Church must be infallible, since truth is infallible, and the foundation cannot be lesser than that which is built upon it. And since there is another infallible authority apart from Scripture, sola scriptura must be false.

Here’s the second argument:

The Jerusalem Council (recorded in the Bible) demonstrated the sublime authority of the Church to make binding, infallible decrees (something sola Scriptura expressly denies can or should be the case). It claimed to be speaking in conjunction with the Holy Spirit (“it has seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us”: Acts 15:28) and its decree was delivered as such by the Apostle Paul in several cities (“As they went on their way through the cities, they delivered to them for observance the decisions which had been reached by the apostles and elders who were at Jerusalem”: Acts 16:4). [see many more papers on this by searching “Jerusalem” on my Church web page]

These two arguments alone already annihilate sola Scriptura, but there are many other arguments against it. I happen to think that these two are the best and most unanswerable ones (and so I look forward to Bruno’s attempted answer!). Very few Protestants have ever tried to knock down these two arguments: at least as I have argued and expressed them. I can only report what my own almost universal experience has been. There’s a reason for that (as James White would say).

The Roman apologist could still say “if all that is necessary to believe in order to be saved is in Scripture, then the Reformed principle must be contained in Scripture.” Once again, it is a straw man caricature of Protestant teaching. Protestants do not claim that you need to believe that Scripture is the only infallible rule to be saved, but that you need to believe the gospel that Scripture presents unadulterated.

Agreed. That’s not an argument I use, because it is a very weak one and largely a straw man.

Therefore, there is no contradiction.

Not in that particular respect, but there are several other self-contradictions, as I have been demonstrating.

We cannot fail to mention the burden of proof. If indeed there is any other infallible rule of faith besides Scripture, it behooves its proponent to evidence it.

I was happy to provide two above. How does Bruno reply to them? How is sola Scriptura salvaged in light of those two things?

If no other infallible rules are laid down, the Protestant is rationally justified in appealing to Scripture alone as unquestioned authority.

I agree. But they have been laid down from the Bible itself.

The Catholic objection is often put another way, “Sola Scriptura is self-refuting because it does not contain the canon.”

That’s a decent argument, too, but forms no part of my present *much more compelling) argument; therefore, I need not address it at the moment.

First of all, I should mention that Catholics despise the canon’s internal and intertextual evidence.

That’s an unfair and inaccurate generalization.

Scripture itself provides the criteria by which the canon can be established.

Usually, but not always:

Are All Bible Books Self-Evidently Inspired? [6-19-06]

Are All the Biblical Books Self-Evidently Canonical? [6-22-06]

Bible: Completely Self-Authenticating, So that Anyone Could Come up with the Complete Canon without Formal Church Proclamations? (vs. Wm. Whitaker) [July 2012].

The Catholic objection to the canon strikes me as hypocritical too, since supposing that there were in Scripture a book which gave us the list of the canon, papists would go on to say “how do you know that the book which lists the canon is a part of Scripture?” 

That’s sheer nonsense. What we would say is that such a list in a book would decisively resolve this issue in and of itself, provided that we have good reason to believe that the book it appeared in is itself canonical and inspired. We would determine the latter by seeing what the Church Church fathers taught about it. Since we (unlike Protestants) believe in the infallibility of authentic apostolic tradition (not all claimed tradition), this is not a difficulty for us, or an inconsistency. There’s no “hypocrisy” here at all. There is epistemological and biblical consistency.

It’s precisely because there is no such list in the Bible, that infallible Catholic Church authority was needed to resolve the issue. Protestants end up accepting that, as an embarrassing exception to their usual methodology (minus seven biblical books that they rejected, following a minority position in the Church fathers), because (just as with the arbitrary sola Scriptura) they have no other recourse. It’s a desperate default position.

This is because the aim of Catholic apologetics is to demote the authority of Scripture in order to elevate the authority of its own Church.

We’ve never done such a thing. This is simply ad hominem smearing. I’ve knocked down dozens of anti-Catholic attempts to try to establish as historical fact some fictional, imaginary animus of the Catholic Church against the Bible. Perhaps Bruno wants to make an attempt (but after we discuss this!)? I’ll be happy to refute that, too.

[I]in the same way that someone might ask “how do you know what is or is not the word of God?”, we asked “how do you know your Church is infallible”. To answer this question, the Catholic will have to either appeal to circular reasoning (the church is infallible because it says it is) or to a fallible private judgment to determine whether his church is infallible. At the end of the day, we all depend on our fallible judgment to know the truth.

This is nonsense. Christianity doesn’t reduce to secular philosophical epistemology. We all have faith, remember? And that faith must derive from God’s grace. In other words, in the final analysis it’s a spiritual, religious thing, not a philosophical thing. We can defend many parts of our beliefs from philosophy and secular learning (I have no problem with that: I often do it as an apologist, and my upcoming book about biblical archaeology — that any Protestant should agree with — does it). But we have to exercise faith, too. Protestants do and Catholics do. It’s religious and theological belief.

The informed, educated Catholic doesn’t say that the Church is infallible merely because it says so. That would be stupid and prove nothing, of course. We say it’s infallible because the Bible asserts it, in 1 Timothy 3:15 and Acts 15. We believe the Bible on many other grounds (including archaeology, which my latest book addresses). We believe it because our Lord Jesus (Who proved He was God by performing miracles and rising from the dead and returning) said that the Holy Spirit would guide us into all truth, and told Peter He would build His Church upon his leadership as first pope, and that “the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it” (Matthew 16).

St. Paul also mentions quite a bit, the notion of “truth” and a set of teachings (he uses many synonymous terms) that are regarded as dogma and unassailable. And he railed against those who would deny this, and go against the “tradition” that he himself passed on to his followers: urging folks to avoid those who cause division. I wrote an entire book of biblical arguments related to this very topic of infallibility (Biblical Proofs for an Infallible Church and Papacy: March 2012).

Why do we believe the Catholic Church is the same Church talked about in the Bible and in early Church history? That’s an historical matter, and we have all kinds of arguments demonstrating historical continuity and apostolic succession (that Protestants glaringly lack for themselves). That’s why we believe it: still in and with faith, by grace, but with ample objective reasons to do so: that can withstand skeptical scrutiny (I do it for a living).

But in any event, it’s not merely “fallible private judgment” (nice try there). Of course it may be for many inadequately taught particular Catholics, just as there are also millions of undereducated Protestants (I know: I was in that group, too, for 32 years). But we can never go by that. We have to examine what “official teachings” assert, not “Joe Blow Catholic / Protestant” in some bar at midnight, spouting off about theology, says, or some loudmouthed ignorant fool on the Internet, falsely claiming to represent something.

Infallible epistemological certainty is something that God did not want to give us.

He wanted to give us an infallible certitude of faith: not the theologically relativistic, ecclesiologically chaotic state of affairs that we have in Protestant denominationalism: a concept never found in the New Testament anywhere: let alone sanctioned as a supposed norm.

Think for a moment. Why an infallible magisterium that needs to be accessed or interpreted by fallible judgments?

It’s not. The premise is wrong. It’s infallibly interpreted in specific highly specified circumstances by ecumenical councils in conjunction with popes, or by popes themselves. That’s how our system works. Bruno seems to have us confused with Protestantism, where the individual is king, and so a a result it has multiple hundreds of competing denominations, where all sorts of errors are necessarily present (by the law of contradiction).

That’s not from God. Any falsehood is from the devil. God would never countenance a system that necessarily contains that much falsehood. That’s why denominationalism is yet another central Protestant belief or reality that is utterly absent from the Bible, just like sola Scriptura and sola fide and several other false doctrines. But thank heavens, we do agree on many things, too, which is cause for rejoicing.

If that were God’s purpose, he would do something better. He would make all Christians infallible.

There is no need to do that. We have more than enough infallible human authority, and inspired Scripture, to guide us to the truth in all these matters.

The whole body of Christ in unison and clear would hold the same opinions and hold the same truths.

That will never happen in fact because of the sinfulness and lack of knowledge of human beings as a whole. But we can have an infallible, inspired Bible and infallible Church and tradition to guide the way. We don’t have to rely on our own miserable, flimsy, fallible selves as the ultimate rule and standard of faith (thank God!). The Bible never teaches that we do: yet Protestantism does: yet another unbiblical tradition of men.

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Now, in closing I will note how fascinating it is that Bruno started out with the assertion:I believe the Reformed principle is taught in Scripture implicitly. . . . there are a number of texts that put together imply the Reformed principle.” But yet, oddly enough, he managed to never produce these supposed Scriptures that “put together” allegedly add up to the principle of sola Scriptura. He just “forgot” about that and hoped that the reader would, too (ah! the thorny and frustrating problems of incoherent theology). What a shock and surprise! But I’m being sarcastic. This is often the methodology of Protestants “defending” sola Scriptura. It’s an ethereal, shadowy thing. The ever-evasive or plain imaginary “prooftexts” are given lip service and then ignored as if they have no importance (or existence). In fact, producing these alleged texts is absolutely crucial to their case.

It’s like the old tale about “the emperor is naked.” Everyone is scared to tell him that he is. Well, the nakedness in the present discussion is the lack of any compelling biblical evidence for sola Scriptura (and I ain’t scared to point it out!). That being the case, Protestants seem to be engaged in a sort of voluntary mass self-deception or self-delusion: by pretending that the proof is there “somewhere” in the Bible, but never producing it (or them).  It’s terribly inadequate, woefully insufficient theology, exegesis, debate, and thinking, period. But it’s not going to end anytime soon. In the meantime, we can only expose the farcical, self-contradictory, and unbiblical nature of the belief so that less people are fooled and harmed by it.

See my related papers, which get into other aspects of this issue that I didn’t address here:

Sola Scriptura is Self-Defeating and False if Not in the Bible (vs. Kevin Johnson) [5-4-04]

Sola Scriptura: Self-Refuting? (vs. Steve Hays) [12-14-21]

Protestantism: Is it Logically Self-Defeating? [9-15-03]

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Practical Matters: Perhaps some of my 4,000+ free online articles (the most comprehensive “one-stop” Catholic apologetics site) or fifty books have helped you (by God’s grace) to decide to become Catholic or to return to the Church, or better understand some doctrines and why we believe them.

Or you may believe my work is worthy to support for the purpose of apologetics and evangelism in general. If so, please seriously consider a much-needed financial contribution. I’m always in need of more funds: especially monthly support. “The laborer is worthy of his wages” (1 Tim 5:18, NKJV). 1 December 2021 was my 20th anniversary as a full-time Catholic apologist, and February 2022 marked the 25th anniversary of my blog.

PayPal donations are the easiest: just send to my email address: [email protected]. You’ll see the term “Catholic Used Book Service”, which is my old side-business. To learn about the different methods of contributing, including 100% tax deduction, etc., see my page: About Catholic Apologist Dave Armstrong / Donation InformationThanks a million from the bottom of my heart!

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Summary: Brazilian Protestant apologist Bruno Lima makes various arguments for sola Scriptura being biblical. I shoot down every one and offer plausible biblical alternatives.

2023-02-21T16:03:46-04:00

Lucas Banzoli is a very active Brazilian anti-Catholic polemicist, who holds to basically a Seventh-Day Adventist theology, whereby there is no such thing as a soul that consciously exists outside of a body, and no hell (soul sleep and annihilationism). This leads him to a Christology which is deficient and heterodox in terms of Christ’s human nature after His death. He has a Master’s degree in theology, a degree and postgraduate work in history, a license in letters, and is a history teacher, author of 25 books, as well as blogmaster (but now inactive) for six blogs. He’s active on YouTube.

This is my 28th refutation of articles written by Lucas Banzoli. As of yet, I haven’t received a single word in reply to any of them (or if Banzoli has replied to anything, anywhere, he certainly hasn’t informed me of it). Readers may decide for themselves why that is the case. I use RSV for the Bible passages unless otherwise indicated. Google Translate is utilized to render Lucas’ Portugese into English. His words will be in blue.

*****

I’m replying to Lucas’ article, “Desafio aos católicos sobre a intercessão dos santos” [Challenge to Catholics about the intercession of saints] (8-16-12).

This . . . [is] not exactly an article, but just a simple question, or, if you prefer, a challenge that I throw at any Catholic. It is basically very simple.

Cool! I love such challenges!

Just answer the following question:

– In what situation is it better or more advisable to pray to a saint than to pray directly to God? In which case would it be more efficient to address your prayers to a saint who has already died and not to the Creator of Heaven and Earth? In what circumstance, for example, is a prayer addressed to a saint answered, where in the same circumstance would the miracle not happen if the prayer were addressed to God?

All of a sudden one “simple question” becomes three not-so-simple questions. But whatever. I can easily answer all three of them.

It’s not technically praying to a saint, but to a living holy person. In essence, it’s the same thing:

James 5:16 (RSV) The prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects. (KJV: . . . availeth much)

This is the principle that if you go to a more righteous or holy person and ask them to pray for x, then x is far more likely to happen than if we go to God directly (because we are less righteous). Therefore, it’s more “advisable” or “efficient” and “better” to do this in these instances rather than go directly to God. The surrounding context of James 5:16 elaborates, with a concrete example from the Old Testament and a prophet:

Is any among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord; [15] and the prayer of faith will save the sick man, and the Lord will raise him up; and if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven. . . . [17] Eli’jah was a man of like nature with ourselves and he prayed fervently that it might not rain, and for three years and six months it did not rain on the earth. [18] Then he prayed again and the heaven gave rain, and the earth brought forth its fruit.

See the related passages:

Psalm 34:17 When the righteous cry for help, the LORD hears, and delivers them out of all their troubles.

1 Peter 3:12 For the eyes of the Lord are upon the righteous, and his ears are open to their prayer.

1 John 3:22 and we receive from him whatever we ask, because we keep his commandments and do what pleases him.

1 John 5:14 And this is the confidence which we have in him, that if we ask anything according to his will he hears us.

Righteous people know God’s will better than those who are not following God with a whole heart, with all their might. Therefore, their prayers are more effective. Accordingly, James 4:3 states about the opposite state of affairs: “You ask and do not receive, because you ask wrongly, to spend it on your passions.”

Moses was another such holy person, whose prayers were very effective:

Exodus 32:30 On the morrow Moses said to the people, “You have sinned a great sin. And now I will go up to the LORD; perhaps I can make atonement for your sin.”

Numbers 11:1-2 And the people complained in the hearing of the LORD about their misfortunes; and when the LORD heard it, his anger was kindled, and the fire of the LORD burned among them, and consumed some outlying parts of the camp. [2] Then the people cried to Moses; and Moses prayed to the LORD, and the fire abated.

Numbers 14:13, 19-20 But Moses said to the LORD, . . . [19] “Pardon the iniquity of this people, I pray thee, according to the greatness of thy steadfast love, and according as thou hast forgiven this people, from Egypt even until now.” [20] Then the LORD said, “I have pardoned, according to your word;

Numbers 21:7-9 And the people came to Moses, and said, “We have sinned, for we have spoken against the LORD and against you; pray to the LORD, that he take away the serpents from us.” So Moses prayed for the people. [8] And the LORD said to Moses, “Make a fiery serpent, and set it on a pole; and every one who is bitten, when he sees it, shall live.” [9] So Moses made a bronze serpent, and set it on a pole; and if a serpent bit any man, he would look at the bronze serpent and live.

Why was Moses different? He was set apart; he was holy, and had a direct, profound relationship with God:

Exodus 33:11 . . . the LORD used to speak to Moses face to face, as a man speaks to his friend. . . .

Deuteronomy 34:10-11 And there has not arisen a prophet since in Israel like Moses, whom the LORD knew face to face, [11] none like him for all the signs and the wonders which the LORD sent him to do . . .

Lucas’ second question was: “In which case would it be more efficient to address your prayers to a saint who has already died and not to the Creator of Heaven and Earth?” 

The answer is: when our Lord Jesus says it is okay to do so. Where does He do that? Well, it’s in Luke 16, in the story (not parable!) of Lazarus and the rich man:

Luke 16:24 And he called out, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy upon me, and send Laz’arus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am in anguish in this flame.’

This is the Abraham of the Bible: long dead by that time, being asked to do something by a “rich man” (16:19, 22). His answer was, in effect, “no” (16:25-26). Thus failing in that request, he prays to him again for something else:

Luke 16:27-28 And he said, ‘Then I beg you, father [KJV: “I pray thee therefore, father”], to send him to my father’s house, [28] for I have five brothers, so that he may warn them, lest they also come into this place of torment.’

His request is again declined (16:29). So, like any good self-respecting Jew (Moses even “negotiated” with God), he argues with Abraham (16:30). But Abraham states again that his request is futile (16:31). God is never even mentioned in the entire story.

If we were not supposed to ask saints to pray for us, I think this story would be almost the very last way to make that supposed point. Abraham would simply have said, “you shouldn’t be asking me for anything; ask God!” If the true theology is that Abraham cannot be asked an intercessory request, then Abraham would have noted this and refused to even hear it. But instead he heard the request and said no.

The passage  shows (in a fascinating way) that not only can dead saints hear our requests, they also have some measure of power to carry them out on their own. Abraham is asked to “send” a dead man to appear to the rich man’s brothers, in order for them to avoid damnation. Abraham doesn’t deny that he is able to potentially send Lazarus to do such a thing; he only denies that it would work, or that it is necessary (by the logic of “if they don’t respond to greater factor x, nor will they to lesser factor y”).

Therefore, it is assumed in the story that Abraham could have possibly done so on his own. And this is all told, remember, by our Lord Jesus. It is disputed whether it is a parable or not (several textual factors suggest that it is not; e.g., parables do not use proper names), but even if it is, it nevertheless cannot contain things that are untrue, lest Jesus be guilty of leading people into heresy by means of false illustrations or analogies within His common teaching tool: the parable.

So there we have it: Jesus Himself teaches a story in which a person prays to and makes intercessory requests of Abraham, not Himself or God the Father. If this were some terrible sin, obviously Jesus could have never taught and endorsed it. If the rich man could pray to Abraham in Hades, then we can pray to him from earth. The principle is already established: someone other than God can be prayed to or (more precisely) can be asked to intercede on our behalf.

Lucas’ third question is simply a variation of his first, and so has already been answered.

I believe that the question is very simple and very easy to assimilate. You don’t even need to stretch too much. Just respond promptly with a clear and direct example of some case where it would be better to pray to a saint than to go straight to God, or when going straight to God doesn’t work, but going to the saints works just fine.

I did so. I thank Lucas for the opportunity!

If any Catholic will be able to answer this question for me with a foundation and a solid basis of argument,

I used Scripture as the most rock-solid foundation anyone could find, and the logic was impeccable.

I will proceed right now to become the most enthusiastic devotee of the dead this world has ever seen, and I will preach the doctrine of the intercession of the saints . . . 

Excellent! I’m delighted that Lucas will be joining us in asking saints to intercede for us. I love the enthusiasm! It’s a lot more rewarding when one is advocating and defending truth rather than falsehood. Perhaps (considering this change of mind and heart) he will become a Catholic, too.

But if no Catholic is even able to answer my question,

Too bad! Sorry to disappoint Lucas . . .

then I think the wisest thing would be to keep going straight to God.

Yes; it’s the best strategy for prayer, unless there happens to be a person more righteous than we are in the immediate vicinity, who is willing to make the same prayer request.

After all, I won’t be missing anything with this, will I? So why take the risk? Why pray to a dead man if I can achieve anything I ask Jesus Christ straight for?

In this case, the Bible has taught otherwise than Lucas assumed. Like so many Protestants (including myself when I was one), he didn’t go nearly deeply enough into the Bible.

Why, instead of taking the risk of knowing if this “saint” has omniscience to have knowledge of my inner being and my desires,

The saint need not be omniscient at all: only aware of earthly activities. We know that they are, from Hebrews 12:1, which described heavenly saints as keen observers and witnesses of the earth. And there is the following passage, which shows saints in heaven praying for those on the earth:

Revelation 6:9-11 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne; [10] they cried out with a loud voice, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before thou wilt judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell upon the earth?” [11] Then they were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been.

This is known as an imprecatory prayer: praying for judgment of one’s enemies by God. Wikipedia, “Imprecatory Psalms” states: “Major imprecatory Psalms include Psalm 69 and Psalm 109, while Psalms 5, 6, 11, 12, 35, 37, 40, 52, 54, 56, 57, 58, 59, 79, 83, 94, 137, 139 and 143 are also considered imprecatory.” king David asked: very similarly to these “souls” of Revelation 6 in heaven: “How long shall my enemy be exalted over me?” (Ps 13:2). And again, he cried to God: “How long, O LORD, wilt thou look on? Rescue me from their ravages, . . .” (Ps 35:17; cf. 74:10; 94:3; 119:84; see other OT instances of “how long . . . ?).

Revelation 6:10 is exactly this sort of prayer, made by those in heaven in relation to people on earth. God did answer it, in effect saying, “just wait a little while longer and be patient, and you will see that I will judge them in due course.” And the Book of Revelation shows how He will do precisely that. So these departed saints (as well as angels) are aware of our prayers and desires. We know that from the two Scriptures above and also the following ones:

Revelation 5:8 . . . the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints;

Revelation 8:3-4  And another angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; [4] and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God.

if he has omnipresence to answer my prayer and at the same time the prayer of thousands of people on the other side? On the other side of the world,

Omnipresence is true only of God. They have great knowledge given to them by God, by virtue of being in heaven. The Bible says they are aware of earthy events and our prayers. I just gave four explicit Bible passages proving that, and it’s more than good enough for me to believe it. Part of being in heaven is functioning in a different time-frame than we have on the earth. That makes it possible for the saints there to have much more “time” or ability to devote themselves to particular things than we have or can do.

if you have pan-omnipotence to have power with God to perform miracles,

Omnipotence isn’t required to do a miracle, either. It sounds so dramatic, doesn’t it? But in fact, these are just stupid, clueless, attempted “gotcha!” questions. They’re non sequiturs and red herrings.

wouldn’t it be better to go straight to Christ Jesus, whose security of intercession is already guaranteed by his own attributes of divinity?

We are going to Jesus, but through a more righteous person to get to Him, just as the Bible teaches in many places that we ought to do in order to virtually guarantee an answered prayer. The Bible even goes so far as to explicitly communicate to us that dead saints are in possession of “the prayers of the saints” in heaven (Rev 5:8). Why do they have them in the first place?  What do they do with them? Obviously God willed that this should be the case.

What they do with them is to present them to God, as Revelation 8:3-4 shows angels doing. That is, they have interceded for us before God: precisely as Catholics believe they do. As is always pointed out to us: we didn’t create the Bible. It’s the inspired, infallible, revelation of God. We’re absolutely delighted to follow it wherever it goes.

If you take a test and pass the above challenge to any Catholic, they will obviously not be able to answer the challenge or effectively show any circumstance where it is better or more efficient to pray to a saint than to go straight to God . . . 

I’ve just proven otherwise, thank you.

It is common to see Catholic websites defending the prayer of the dead saints making use of a number of biblical passages that are always and only about the prayer of the living for the living, but never of a living person for a dead person or vice versa. I wonder why?

I don’t know. But I do know that I produced Scripture to back up Catholic theology in all of these areas. I just produced three Bible passages from Revelation showing that dead saints pray for and regarding those on earth and that angels and dead saints 1) somehow possess our prayers, and 2) present them to God. Hebrews 12:1 proves an intense interest of heavenly saints in our activities on earth. They have perfected love, and so certainly this includes prayers for us. I showed how Jesus Himself taught that Abraham (not God, the last time I checked) can both receive and have the power to answer prayers. All that would seem to be quite sufficient for the purpose, wouldn’t it?

I “wonder” about some things, too. I wonder why Lucas has absolutely refused to even attempt to answer any of my critiques of his work, now 27 times (and I’m quite confident that this reply will be the 28th example)? He seems very confident in making his accusations and charges against Catholicism. But when we return the favor, all of a sudden — for some odd reason — he’s nowhere to be found, and seems to not even exist!

Catholics grotesquely confuse prayer for the living with prayer for the dead. That is, we do not direct our prayer to the pastor or to any brother in the church.

We confuse nothing. We ask the living to pray for us and we do the same to dead saints and angels. Sometimes we say we are praying “to” them (meaning in that instance, “communicating with”), but in the final analysis it means asking them to go to God for us: just as we do with those on earth. In heaven they are more alive than we are now. Accordingly, Jesus told the Sadducees, “who say that there is no resurrection” (Mt 22:23):

Matthew 22:31-32 And as for the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was said to you by God, [32] `I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not God of the dead, but of the living.”

St. Paul talks about the wonders of heaven:

1 Corinthians 13:10-12 but when the perfect comes, the imperfect will pass away. [11] When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child; when I became a man, I gave up childish ways. [12] For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall understand fully, even as I have been fully understood.

“Understand fully” is not the same as “omniscient” but it’s much more knowledge than what we have now.

The most we can do is ask him to pray for us directly to God, not a saint. It is necessary to make this very clear: we, evangelicals, never, never and under no circumstances pray to any saint (whether living or dead).

Then Protestants are thumbing their noses at the explicit biblical example — taught by Jesus Himself in Luke 16 — of a person asking Abraham to intercede for his brothers. And they have to explain why saints and angels in heaven have our prayers and present them to God. We go wherever the truth in the Bible leads. Protestants refuse to if and when the Bible contradicts some prior pet belief of theirs. Folks: that’s what Jesus and the Evangelists called “traditions of men”.

We are waiting. As long as no Catholic is brave enough to come up with a convincing answer, . . . 

Lucas is the last person who should be crying crocodile tears about waiting so long for Catholics to answer his easily-answered questions. He wants to pompously lecture us about about “waiting” and being “brave”? What a scream, and what hilarious irony! I first critiqued one of his papers on May 25th of this year. In five days it’ll be four months, in which he has utterly ignored 27 such critiques from me. I say to him, “put up or shut up” and “if you can’t stand the heat, get out of the kitchen.”

If he thinks he can be (or is) in the “big leagues” of Protestant-Catholic apologetics and interaction and vainly imagines that he can refute to silence and shame every Catholic alive, then he now has a lot of work to get to, answering all of my refutations of his rather poor arguments. And if he can’t and/or won’t do so — not even one lousy time — then he should get out of apologetics altogether as a pretender and a sham. Any serious thinker in any field must be able to back up his or her claims under scrutiny and close examination. If they cannot or will not, they simply can’t be classified as serious thinkers. Rather, they are in actuality mere provocateurs and unserious sophists.

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Practical Matters: Perhaps some of my 4,000+ free online articles (the most comprehensive “one-stop” Catholic apologetics site) or fifty books have helped you (by God’s grace) to decide to become Catholic or to return to the Church, or better understand some doctrines and why we believe them.

Or you may believe my work is worthy to support for the purpose of apologetics and evangelism in general. If so, please seriously consider a much-needed financial contribution. I’m always in need of more funds: especially monthly support. “The laborer is worthy of his wages” (1 Tim 5:18, NKJV). 1 December 2021 was my 20th anniversary as a full-time Catholic apologist, and February 2022 marked the 25th anniversary of my blog.

PayPal donations are the easiest: just send to my email address: [email protected]. You’ll see the term “Catholic Used Book Service”, which is my old side-business. To learn about the different methods of contributing, including 100% tax deduction, etc., see my page: About Catholic Apologist Dave Armstrong / Donation InformationThanks a million from the bottom of my heart!

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Photo credit: Socrates by Leonidas Drosis, at the Academy of Athens [Wikimedia Commons /  Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike 3.0 Unported license]

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Summary: Brazilian Protestant apologist Lucas Banzoli’s “challenge” to Catholics re intercession of saints became a host of questions. But I systematically refuted all of ’em.

 

 

2023-02-21T15:47:33-04:00

Lucas Banzoli is a very active Brazilian anti-Catholic polemicist, who holds to basically a Seventh-Day Adventist theology, whereby there is no such thing as a soul that consciously exists outside of a body, and no hell (soul sleep and annihilationism). This leads him to a Christology which is deficient and heterodox in terms of Christ’s human nature after His death. He has a Master’s degree in theology, a degree and postgraduate work in history, a license in letters, and is a history teacher, author of 25 books, as well as blogmaster (but now inactive) for six blogs. He’s active on YouTube.

The words of Lucas Banzoli will be in blue. I use RSV for the Bible passages unless otherwise indicated.

This is my 17th refutation of articles written by Lucas Banzoli. As of yet, I haven’t received a single word in reply to any of them (or if Banzoli has replied to anything, anywhere, he certainly hasn’t informed me of it). Readers may decide for themselves why that is the case.

*****

I’m replying to Lucas’ article, “E não a conheceu até que…” [“And knew her not until…” ] (8-16-12)

Matthew 1:24-25 (NRSV) . . . Joseph . . . took her as his wife, [25] but had no marital relations with her [RSV: “knew her not”] until she had borne a son . . .

The Catholic Church traditionally teaches the dogma of Mary’s perpetual virginity, according to which Jesus was an only child and Mary never had any other children besides him, and Jesus’ brothers were merely cousins. As it will be too extensive to deal with all the points that involve this dogma and to refute one by one each of the aberrations that are preached by the Roman Church, I will restrict myself to dealing with a single biblical passage, which for me is enough to decide the subject [Matthew 1:25].

It’s not “enough” in and of itself at all, as I will prove.

If Matthew had meant to imply that Joseph never “knew” Mary, he would have simply written that “he never knew her,” not that he just didn’t know her “until” Jesus was born.

He would have this option ready, at hand, which could be perfectly utilized if he wanted to defend the dogma of the “perpetual virginity of Mary”, and he would end this question once and for all.

There is a place for speculation about “what should have been written if specific view x is to be regarded as true” or what I call humorously  “coulda woulda shoulda theology [or exegesis]”. I’ve done it myself on occasion (even in the last few days), and it’s fun. But of course, it’s always an argument from silence (argumentum ex silentio), which doesn’t carry all that much weight in argumentation and logic.

Hence, Sven Bernecker and Duncan Pritchard, in The Routledge Companion to Epistemology (Routledge, 2010) state that “arguments from silence are, as a rule, quite weak; there are many examples where reasoning from silence would lead us astray” (pp. 64–65). In the final analysis, we can only deal with what the biblical text actually asserts and the possible meaning and its interpretation of any given passage.

But, on the contrary, he makes a point of emphasizing that the time they reserved was the one determined until the birth of Jesus, as he would have to be born of a virgin, to fulfill the prophetic Scriptures (Mt.1:23; Is. 7:14).

Yes, He had to be born of a virgin (all Christians agree about that). But what isn’t often considered is the question: why did Joseph abstain from marital relations for the entire pregnancy if in fact he had marital relations with the Blessed Virgin Mary after Jesus’ birth? This wouldn’t affect the virgin birth because it would have occurred after Jesus was conceived. Nor would anyone know whether it had happened or not.

Rabbinic Judaism did not forbid sexual relations during the whole of pregnancy (especially not the final three months). I think we can safely assume that something of that sort was the custom of the Jews of Jesus’ time. So why did Joseph do this? There is no plausible reason to do so, other than the fact that he intended to never have relations with her (she being the Mother of God). Sometimes the most effective and elegant arguments are the small ones like this (that one could almost not notice at all).

Writing against Helvidius, St. Jerome provocatively asked (making precisely the present argument):

Why then did Joseph abstain at all up to the day of birth? He will surely answer, Because of the Angel’s words, “That which is born in her, &c.” He then who gave so much heed to a vision as not to dare to touch his wife, would he, after he had heard the shepherds, seen the Magi, and known so many miracles, dare to approach the temple of God, the seat of the Holy Ghost, the Mother of his Lord?

Perhaps Lucas (if he ever answers any of my critiques of his work) can offer a plausible explanation to me and our readers, as to why Joseph did that.

He could also have written the same as was said regarding Michal, who “had no children until the day she died” (2 Sam.6:23). With that, he would be making it clear that she had not generated children during her entire existential period (“until her death”).

He “could” have done a lot of things, but that’s neither here nor there, since it is the weak fallacy of an argument from silence. 2 Samuel 6:23 actually supports the Catholic interpretation of “until” in Matthew 1:25 because it perfectly illustrates that “until” can and does (in some instances in the Bible) refer to events up to certain point referred to, but not after. In this case, it couldn’t refer to events after, since Michal died and could no longer possibly have children.

That the “until” is conclusive proof that Mary had other children besides Jesus, plus the fact that the evangelist Matthew could well have written differently that was intended to defend the dogma and not put it in doubt, comes from the fact that on several other occasions this same term appears in the New Testament, and the text leaves no doubt that “until” marks the end of one event to give way to another. [he provides Rev 2:25, 1 Cor 11:26, Acts 4:3, Mt 17:9 as examples of this dynamic] . . . Again, the “until” marks the end of an event, designating its limit. 

With so much overwhelming biblical evidence that “until” sets a boundary that is passed with the end of the restriction, why should we think that it is only different in the case of Matthew 1:25? What occurs in the text of Matthew 1:25 is strictly the same structure that occurs in the texts that we have just passed.

We do because there are other examples (conveniently ignored by Lucas) where this pattern is not present. Such variation for until and the Greek it translates either exists in Scripture or it does not. I will shortly show that it does. Once that is established, then Lucas can no longer deny that it ever happens; nor can he deny the possibility that it happened similarly in Matthew 1:25.

That changes everything in the debate. Perhaps that’s why he chose to totally ignore any counter-examples: in order to keep his readers in the dark, and ignorant. I’m not impressed, and I dare say many other people won’t be, either, when they read this critique of such a pitiable, cynical “research” methodology.

The fact that Matthew also adds that Mary gave birth to her “firstborn” (v.25) also indicates that she had other children.

It does not at all. It simply means He was her first son to be born. Hence, God Himself defines the term in Numbers 8:16: “all that open the womb, the first-born . . .” (cf. Ex 13:1-2).  These children “open the womb” whether they later have siblings or not. The two concepts are distinct. When our oldest son Paul was born, he was our “firstborn.” And he would remain the firstborn, whether we had any other children or not, just as our first grandchild (a girl) remains the first and the oldest, whether or not our two married sons and their wives have any more.

Our third grandchild and first grandson (due around Halloween in a little less than two months from this writing) will remain our “firstborn [and oldest] grandson” whether or not any more are born. Additional children don’t change those facts.

Otherwise, he would simply have written that Jesus was his “only son”, as the Bible often states in other cases, where in fact there were no other brothers in the family (Lk.7:12; Lk.9:38). , as in the case of the widow of Nain, whose “only son” (Lk.7:12) had died, and of the man who wanted to cast out the devil from his son, because he was her “only son” (Lk.9:38). ).

More arguments from silence . . . No need to dwell on them, as they have no force.

In short, Matthew neither writes that Joseph never had relations with her,

Nor did he write that he did, as we shall shortly see, in four analogous instances of “until” that carry the same meaning that Catholics maintain is the case at Matthew 1:25.

nor that Jesus was her only son.

That’s true, in terms of that phrase, but on the other hand, it’s also true that Jesus’ “brethren” in Scripture are never called the children of Mary, and Mary is never called their mother, as in the case of Jesus (e.g., Jn 2:1; 19:25). In at least two instances, these “brothers” were mentioned but Mary wasn’t called their mother; only Jesus‘ mother (Mk 6:3; Acts 1:14). Moreover, Luke 2:41-42 states:

Now his parents went to Jerusalem every year at the feast of the Passover. [42] And when he was twelve years old, they went up according to custom;

We don’t see a word about any other children, who certainly would have gone with Joseph and Mary to observe the Passover in Jerusalem. This means that if Mary had other children, there was at least a twelve-year gap, which is hardly likely, feasible, or plausible in those days, with a young married woman of approximately 16-28 years of age. Generally (as it continued to be the case up to very recent times), wives had children one after another.

Then afterwards, the text states that “he went down with them and came to Nazareth” (2:51). If the other supposed siblings had also been there, the text would have presumably read something like, “he went down with his brothers and sisters and parents and came to Nazareth”. But it didn’t, and we submit that it didn’t because those siblings didn’t exist.

Finally, we have the strong evidence that there were no siblings of Jesus at the time He was crucified, since He committed the care of His mother to John: “the disciple whom he loved” (Jn 19:26-27). This would certainly not have happened (particularly in Jewish culture at that time), had any supposed siblings been alive. Lucas argues elsewhere that this person was actually James, and a literal sibling, but the exegetical arguments for his being John are very strong.

These are all arguments from silence, too — I hasten to add –, but if someone skeptical of Mary’s perpetual virginity insists on making them, we can also return the favor. Goose and gander . . . And these things are harder to explain than the “until” Mary and Joseph scenario, where we have perfectly analogous biblical counter-examples of “until” that cast into serious doubt the Protestant skeptical position. In other words, Catholic arguments from silence in this respect (if they must be made) are much better than Protestant ones.

Just as Jesus was the “firstborn among many brethren” (Rom.8:29) in the spiritual realm, he was also the firstborn of many brethren in the natural realm (Mk.6:3). As such, Catholic claims against the validity of Matthew 1:25 are baseless, as are their attempts to defend a dogma that has no biblical framework to back it up.

It’s not just “Catholic claims.” Here are two pretty famous non-Catholics who think Lucas’ (and later — not early — Protestantism’s) theory about Matthew 1:25 and “until” is bunk, too:

When Matthew says that Joseph did not know Mary carnally until she had brought forth her son, it does not follow that he knew her subsequently; on the contrary, it means that he never did know her . . . This babble . . . is without justification . . . he has neither noticed nor paid any attention to either Scripture or the common idiom. (Martin Luther, Luther’s Worksvol. 45:206, 212-213 / That Jesus Christ was Born a Jew [1523] )

The inference he [Helvidius] drew from it was, that Mary remained a virgin no longer than till her first birth, and that afterwards she had other children by her husband . . . No just and well-grounded inference can be drawn from these words . . . as to what took place after the birth of Christ. He is called ‘first-born’; but it is for the sole purpose of informing us that he was born of a virgin . . . What took place afterwards the historian does not inform us . . . No man will obstinately keep up the argument, except from an extreme fondness for disputation. (John Calvin, Calvin’s Commentaries, translated by William Pringle, Grand Rapids, Michigan: Eerdmans, 1949, vol. I, 107)

And now, to conclude, and as promised, here are four examples of the use of “until” in Scripture that are analogous to the Catholic interpretation of Matthew 1:25:

Acts 8:40 But Philip was found at Azo’tus, and passing on he preached the gospel to all the towns till he came to Caesare’a. 

Did Philip never preach again after he arrived in Caesarea? No. In Acts 21:8 he’s called “Philip the evangelist.” So he was still doing the same stuff. But hey, Lucas contended that there is “overwhelming biblical evidence” that ” ‘until’ marks the end of an event, designating its limit.” Therefore, employing his “analysis”, Philip should have retired and set up a lemonade stand by the sea. “Till” in this verse translates the same Greek word as the “until” of Matthew 1:25: ἕως (heós): Strong’s word #2193.

Acts 25:21 But when Paul had appealed to be kept in custody for the decision of the emperor, I commanded him to be held until I could send him to Caesar.”

Was Paul, therefore, not held in jail after he met Caesar, because “until” is in this passage? No. He was to be held in custody while traveling (Acts 27:1) and also when he arrived in Rome (Acts 28:16). But Lucas has informed us that there is “overwhelming biblical evidence” that “‘until’ marks the end of an event, designating its limit.” So according to him, Paul must have been set free. Not! “Until” in this verse is, again, the same Greek word as the “until” of Matthew 1:25: heós.

1 Corinthians 15:25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet.

Will Christ’s reign therefore come to an end? Nope. Luke 1:33 informs us: “he will reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there will be no end” (cf. Rev 11:15). This verse (so Lucas thinks, if he is consistent) would entail His reign ending at some point. 

1 Timothy 4:13 Till I come, attend to the public reading of scripture, to preaching, to teaching.

Does this mean that Timothy would or should stop preaching after Paul arrives? After all, Lucas says that there is “overwhelming biblical evidence” that ” ‘until’ marks the end of an event, designating its limit.” Therefore, employing his “reasoning”, Timothy ought to have ceased preaching and teaching when Paul showed up. But of course he didn’t, and Paul later commissioned him to do precisely those things (see 2 Tim 4:2, 5). “Till” translates the same Greek word as Matthew 1:25 again (heós).

My friend and fellow apologist John Martignoni provided a good summary, in writing about the same topic:

[T]he word “until” does not always and everywhere mean a change of circumstance.  Yes, that is the most common usage – Condition A is true until this point of time then it is no longer true – but it is not the only usage.  As I have clearly shown, from the Bible, “until” can also just be referring to what happens up to a certain point in time, without implying what happens after that point in time.  It does not automatically mean that the condition changed after that point in time.  So, the fact that Joseph did not know Mary “until” Jesus was born, does not necessarily infer anything about what happened between Joseph and Mary after Jesus was born.

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Practical Matters: Perhaps some of my 4,000+ free online articles (the most comprehensive “one-stop” Catholic apologetics site) or fifty books have helped you (by God’s grace) to decide to become Catholic or to return to the Church, or better understand some doctrines and why we believe them.

Or you may believe my work is worthy to support for the purpose of apologetics and evangelism in general. If so, please seriously consider a much-needed financial contribution. I’m always in need of more funds: especially monthly support. “The laborer is worthy of his wages” (1 Tim 5:18, NKJV). 1 December 2021 was my 20th anniversary as a full-time Catholic apologist, and February 2022 marked the 25th anniversary of my blog.

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Photo credit: Saint Joseph and the Christ Child (1640), by Guido Reni (1575-1642) [public domain / Wikipedia]

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Summary: Brazilian Protestant apologist Lucas Banzoli vainly makes a failed linguistic argument that the “until” in Matthew 1:25 means that Mary was not a perpetual virgin.

2022-08-07T15:22:42-04:00

+ St. Augustine’s Enthusiastic Advocacy of Relics

Calvinist apologist Matt Hedges wrote the article, “Did the Church Fathers Teach the Veneration and Worship of Images?” (Soli Deo Gloria Apologetics, 7-28-22).

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Matt brings up Catholic and Orthodox apologetic use of Letter 360 written by St. Basil of Caesarea [known as the Great] (330-379). He notes that many scholars consider it spurious. That’s fine. I will assume that it is (and this probably is the case). The same saint, however, wrote in his work, The Holy Spirit:

[T]he honour paid to the image passes on to the prototype. . . . the image is by reason of imitation, . . . in works of art the likeness is dependent on the form . . . (chapter 18, section 45)

The Council of Trent reflected this reasoning:

Further, the images of Christ, of the Virgin Mother of God, and of other saints are to be kept and preserved, in places of worship especially; and to them due honor and veneration is to be given, not because it is believed that there is in them anything divine or any power for which they are revered or in the sense that something is sought from them, or that a blind trust is put in images as once was done by the Gentiles who placed their hope in idols [cf. Ps 135:15-17], but because the honor that is shown them is referred to the original subjects they represent. Thus, through these images that we kiss and before which we kneel and uncover our heads, we are adoring Christ and venerating the saints whose likeness these images bear. That is what was defined by the decrees of the councils, especially the Second Council of Nicaea, against the opponents of images. (25th session: 1563: On the Invocation, Veneration, and Relics of Saints, and on Sacred Images; but I have modified the text to conform to the 2012 translation of the 43rd edition of Denzinger’s Compendium of Creeds: #1823, p. 430. One of the editors and translators is a personal friend of mine: Dr. Robert Fastiggi)

Matt then claimed that “the Fathers . . . didn’t venerate images, but rather condemned them.” He submits that St. Augustine was one of these, and cites him four times, alongside St. Clement of Alexandria (twice) and Lactantius. That’s not exactly an overwhelming presentation of patristic evidence, commensurate with Matt’s grand, sweeping claim. He incorrectly cites his Exposition of Psalm 113 (it should be 115). There, St. Augustine is condemning the worship of plaster or stone. All Catholics join him in this, and it’s not a condemnation of all veneration of images, but rather, of gross idolatry. Matt cites part of this motif from Augustine:

For they have mouths, and speak not: they have eyes, and see not” [Psalm 113:5] . . . Do we pray unto them, because through them we pray to God? [echoing Basil above] This is the chief cause of this insane profanity, that the figure resembling the living person, which induces men to worship it, has more influence in the minds of these miserable persons, than the evident fact that it is not living, so that it ought to be despised by the living. (5, 7; my bolded italics, as throughout my Augustine citations)

In context, Augustine nails down his valid (and very biblical and Catholic) point:

Employ not then the hands of men, to create a false Deity out of that metal which a true God has created; nay, a false man, whom you may worship for a true God…. (4)

A man then moves himself, that he may frighten away a living beast from his own god; and yet worships that god who cannot move himself, as if he were powerful, from whom he drove away one better than the object of his worship….Even the dead surpasses a deity who neither lives nor has lived…. (5)

[B]y considering these works themselves as deities, and worshipping them as such, they serve the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed forever…. (6)

Trent, cited above, made precisely the same point: Catholics honor and venerate [not worship!] images “not because it is believed that there is in them anything divine or any power for which they are revered or in the sense that something is sought from them . . .”

Matt then cites one sentence from Augustine’s Harmony of the Gospels, Book I, Chapter 10 (16). Unfortunately, he leaves a mistaken impression of Augustine’s meaning in context, so that it sounds iconoclastic. In fact, Augustine’s point was that gullible folks believed that Jesus wrote material dedicated to Paul and Peter, not by consulting the Bible, but rather, from “painted walls.” Here are the two sections with the relevant contextual information included:

15. Nay more, as by divine judgment, some of those who either believe, or wish to have it believed, that Christ wrote matter of that description, have even wandered so far into error as to allege that these same books bore on their front, in the form of epistolary superscription, a designation addressed to Peter and Paul. And it is quite possible that either the enemies of the name of Christ, or certain parties who thought that they might impart to this kind of execrable arts the weight of authority drawn from so glorious a name, may have written things of that nature under the name of Christ and the apostles. But in such most deceitful audacity they have been so utterly blinded as simply to have made themselves fitting objects for laughter, even with young people who as yet know Christian literature only in boyish fashion, and rank merely in the grade of readers.

16. For when they made up their minds to represent Christ to have written in such strain as that to His disciples, they bethought themselves of those of His followers who might best be taken for the persons to whom Christ might most readily be believed to have written, as the individuals who had kept by Him on the most familiar terms of friendship. And so Peter and Paul occurred to them, I believe, just because in many places they chanced to see these two apostles represented in pictures as both in company with Him. For Rome, in a specially honourable and solemn manner, commends the merits of Peter and of Paul, for this reason among others, namely, that they suffered [martyrdom] on the same day. Thus to fall most completely into error was the due desert of men who sought for Christ and His apostles not in the holy writings, but on painted walls. Neither is it to be wondered at, that these fiction-limners were misled by the painters. For throughout the whole period during which Christ lived in our mortal flesh in fellowship with His disciples, Paul had never become His disciple. . . . How, then, is it possible that Christ could have written those books which they wish to have it believed that He did write before His death, and which were addressed to Peter and Paul, as those among His disciples who had been most intimate with Him, seeing that up to that date Paul had not yet become a disciple of His at all? (the lone sentence that Matt cited is italicized)

We see, then, that this has nothing whatsoever to do with a supposed condemnation of all veneration of images. This is shoddy research at best. Matt then cites St. Augustine’s Letter 55 to Januarius (11):

The first commandment, in which we are forbidden to worship any likeness of God made by human contrivance, we are to understand as referring to the Father: this prohibition being made, not because God has no image, but because no image of Him but that One which is the same with Himself, ought to be worshiped; and this One not in His stead, but along with Him.

This one is self-refuting, in terms of Matt’s purpose to establish St. Augustine as an iconoclast. His point is not to oppose veneration of all images whatsoever, but rather, images of God the Father in particular, other than Jesus, “the image of the invisible God” (Col 1:15, RSV). This might be broadly interpreted to include something like a crucifix, which many Calvinists absurdly oppose as an idol as well.

So that’s three down and one to go. Matt offers one more proof of Augustine’s supposed iconoclasm.

“Why have I said this? Please consider carefully the chief point I’m making. We had started to deal with the apparently better educated pagans — because the less educated are the ones who do the things about which these do not wish to be taken to task — so with the better educated ones, since they say to us, “You people also have your adorers of columns, and sometimes even of pictures.” And would to God that we didn’t have them, and may the Lord grant that we don’t go on having them! But all the same, this is not what the Church teaches you. I mean, which priest of theirs ever climbed into a pulpit and from there commanded the people not to adore idols, in the way that we, in Christ, publicly preach against the adoration of columns or of the stones of buildings in holy places, or even of pictures? On the contrary indeed, it was their very priests who used to turn to the idols and offer them victims for their congregations, and would still like to do so now.” (Sermon 198)

This doesn’t appear to be included in the 38-volume Schaff collection. But note that he is not condemning veneration. He’s condemning the same thing that he blasted in Exposition of Psalm 115 above: worshipers of stone and other material objects, as if they were gods or God (rank idolatry). We know from his language: “adorers / adore idols / adorations of columns . . . stones . . . pictures.”

As Matt well knows, the Catholic Church condemns these things in no uncertain terms as well. But Calvinists seem constitutionally unable to distinguish veneration of an image as a representation of a saint, and idolatrous adoration of material things. For them, they all must be the same thing (idolatry) and couldn’t possibly be otherwise. Not so for Augustine. He agrees with St. Basil’s and Trent’s point of representation:

But in regard to pictures and statues, and other works of this kind, which are intended as representations of things, nobody makes a mistake, especially if they are executed by skilled artists, but every one, as soon as he sees the likenesses, recognizes the things they are likenesses of. (On Christian Doctrine, Book II, chapter 25, section 39)

St. Augustine also had a robust and thoroughly Catholic understanding of relics (including their veneration):

Then Thou by a vision made known to Your renowned bishop the spot where lay the bodies of Gervasius and Protasius, the martyrs . . . when they were revealed and dug up and with due honour transferred to the Ambrosian Basilica, not only they who were troubled with unclean spirits (the devils confessing themselves) were healed, but a certain man also, who had been blind many years, a well-known citizen of that city, having asked and been told the reason of the people’s tumultuous joy, rushed forth, asking his guide to lead him there. Arrived there, he begged to be permitted to touch with his handkerchief the bier of Your saints, whose death is precious in Your sight. When he had done this, and put it to his eyes, they were immediately opened. (Confessions, Book 9, 7, 16; my italicized bolding)

The reliquaries of the martyrs and the churches of the apostles bear witness to this; for in the sack of the city they were open sanctuary for all who fled to them, whether Christian or Pagan. To their very threshold the blood-thirsty enemy raged; there his murderous fury owned a limit. (City of God, Book 1, 1)

Certainly we honor their reliquaries, as the memorials of holy men of God who strove for the truth . . . (City of God, Book 8, 27; my italicized bolding)

For were I to be silent of all others, and to record exclusively the miracles of healing which were wrought in the district of Calama and of Hippo by means of [the relics of] this martyr— I mean the most glorious Stephen— they would fill many volumes; and yet all even of these could not be collected, but only those of which narratives have been written for public recital. (City of God, Book 22, 8)

For even now miracles are wrought in the name of Christ, whether by His sacraments or by the prayers or relics of His saints . . . The miracle which was wrought at Milan when I was there, and by which a blind man was restored to sight, could come to the knowledge of many; . . . the occurrence was witnessed by an immense concourse of people that had gathered to the bodies of the martyrs Protasius and Gervasius, . . . By virtue of these remains the darkness of that blind man was scattered, and he saw the light of day. (City of God, Book 22, 8)

Now he had received from a friend of his own some holy earth brought from Jerusalem, where Christ, having been buried, rose again the third day. . . . Hesperius asked us to visit him, and we did so. When he had related all the circumstances, he begged that the earth might be buried somewhere, and that the spot should be made a place of prayer where Christians might assemble for the worship of God. We made no objection: it was done as he desired. There was in that neighborhood a young countryman who was paralytic, who, when he heard of this, begged his parents to take him without delay to that holy place. When he had been brought there, he prayed, and immediately went away on his own feet perfectly cured. (City of God, Book 22, 8)

When the bishop Projectus was bringing the relics of the most glorious martyr Stephen to the waters of Tibilis, a great concourse of people came to meet him at the shrine. There a blind woman entreated that she might be led to the bishop who was carrying the relics. He gave her the flowers he was carrying. She took them, applied them to her eyes, and immediately saw. . . . Lucillus bishop of Sinita, in the neighborhood of the colonial town of Hippo, was carrying in procession some relics of the same martyr, which had been deposited in the castle of Sinita. A fistula under which he had long labored, and which his private physician was watching an opportunity to cut, was suddenly cured by the mere carrying of that sacred fardel, — at least, afterwards there was no trace of it in his body. Eucharius, a Spanish priest, residing at Calama, was for a long time a sufferer from stone. By the relics of the same martyr, which the bishop Possidius brought him, he was cured. Afterwards the same priest, sinking under another disease, was lying dead, and already they were binding his hands. By the succor of the same martyr he was raised to life, the priest’s cloak having been brought from the oratory and laid upon the corpse. . . . A religious female, who lived at Caspalium, a neighboring estate, when she was so ill as to be despaired of, had her dress brought to this shrine [of St. Stephen], but before it was brought back she had gone. However, her parents wrapped her corpse in the dress, and, her breath returning, she became quite well. At Hippo a Syrian called Bassus was praying at the relics of the same martyr for his daughter, who was dangerously ill. He too had brought her dress with him to the shrine. But as he prayed, behold, his servants ran from the house to tell him she was dead. His friends, however, intercepted them, and forbade them to tell him, lest he should bewail her in public. And when he had returned to his house, which was already ringing with the lamentations of his family, and had thrown on his daughter’s body the dress he was carrying, she was restored to life. There, too, the son of a man, Irenæus, one of our tax-gatherers, took ill and died. And while his body was lying lifeless, and the last rites were being prepared, amidst the weeping and mourning of all, one of the friends who were consoling the father suggested that the body should be anointed with the oil of the same martyr. It was done, and he revived. Likewise Eleusinus, a man of tribunitian rank among us, laid his infant son, who had died, on the shrine of the martyr, which is in the suburb where he lived, and, after prayer, which he poured out there with many tears, he took up his child alive. . . . It is not yet two years since these relics were first brought to Hippo-regius, and though many of the miracles which have been wrought by it have not, as I have the most certain means of knowing, been recorded, those which have been published amount to almost seventy at the hour at which I write. But at Calama, where these relics have been for a longer time, and where more of the miracles were narrated for public information, there are incomparably more. . . . At Uzali, too, a colony near Utica, many signal miracles were, to my knowledge, wrought by the same martyr, whose relics had found a place there by direction of the bishop Evodius, long before we had them at Hippo. (City of God, Book 22, 8)

These ladies carry with them relics of the most blessed and glorious martyr Stephen: your Holiness knows how to give due honour to these, as we have done. (Epistle 212: to Quintilianus [423]; my italicized bolding)

St. Augustine, preaching over “the relics of the first and most blessed martyr, Stephen” (1), taught that honor or veneration of a martyr is worshiping Christ:

[W]e haven’t built an altar in this place to Stephen, but an altar to God from Stephen’s relics. (1)

Let the martyr Stephen be honored here; but in his honor let the one who crowned Stephen be worshiped. (3) (Sermon 318: On the Martyr Stephen; dated 425)

This solemn occasion, my brothers and sisters, is being held to the honor of God, on account of a servant of God. When a servant, after all is being honored properly, he is honored in the name of his master. (Sermon 335K: On the Anniversary of the Burial of a Bishop, 1)

When we pay honor to the martyrs, we are honoring the friends of Christ. (Sermon 332: On the Birthday of Some Martyrs, 1)

In Sermon 316 (4), Augustine states: “Saul, for whom it was not enough for Stephen to have been killed, which is something we gladly recollect, because we venerate him . . .” In the Sermon fragment 335G, he proclaims: “let us honor the martyrs.” He also notes: “So let us celebrate Saint Stephen’s birthday, and honor him with due reverence. We have celebrated the Lord’s birthday; let us also celebrate his servant’s” (Sermon 317: On the Martyr Stephen, 6).

St. Augustine wants such honor and veneration to be accompanied by pious imitation of the saints and martyrs:

[T]o honor and not imitate them is nothing more or less than false flattery. (Sermon 325: On the Birthday of the Twenty Martyrs)

It’s easy enough to celebrate in honor of a martyr; the great thing is to imitate the martyr’s faith and patience. (Sermon 311: On the Birthday of the Martyr Cyprian, 1)

The book, Augustine Through the Ages: An Encyclopedia (general editor, Allan D. Fitzgerald, O.S.A., Grand Rapids, Michigan: Eerdmans, 1999), referred to many of the above sermons and a certain change of attitude and belief on Augustine’s part:

The arrival in 416 of the relics of Stephen, . . . had the effect of substantially altering Augustine’s attitude toward the veneration of relics and the problem of miracles worked by these. . . . [I]n 424, with long years of episcopal ministry behind him and moved by the new, stimulating climate of enthusiasm, Augustine . . . has a chapel (memoria) built in Hippo to house the ashes of Stephen and devotes a substantial series of sermons (314-20) to the praise of the holy martyr. . . . In addition, the multiplication of miracles caused by these relics leads him to see to the compiling of detailed and systematic official reports . . . for use as a crushing proof against the stubborn unbelief of pagans [City of God, Book 22, 8]. (p. 162)

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Matt Hedges replied to this on 8-3-22. I decided to let him have the last word (all debates have to end at some point), and in fairness I provide the link to his response. But it did bring home to me again the correctness of my opinion that debates about the views of the Church fathers between Catholics and Protestants are very unfruitful and futile, and accomplish next-to-nothing (“ships passing in the night” is very descriptive of what they almost always descend to). Very few of us in debates on the fathers are patristics scholars or even any sort of experts on them.

It’s much more constructive — and enjoyable –, in my opinion, to do comparative exegesis. What does the Bible teach on thus-and-so? Both sides agree that the Bible is inspired, infallible revelation. It’s something objective to discuss. My next reply to Matt will be of that nature.

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More exchanges on my Facebook page:

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There was certainly controversy [in Church history]. At length the Catholic Church, Orthodoxy, and probably 90% at least of historic Protestantism all decided against iconoclasm. You are in a very tiny minority. The Bible is decisive against it (my second reply to you). I look forward to your reply to that.
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I assume by “90% of historic Protestantism” you are referring to folks such as the Anglicans and the Lutherans. The Anglicans have grown more liberal over the decades, and thus I generally am not too concerned with what their theological positions are issues like this. For example, they practice the ordination of women, which is direct contradiction to 1 Tim. 2.
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The Lutherans hold to a more “middle position” (Jordan Cooper best articulates this). They are okay with making images, but unlike you and the Eastern Orthodox, they do not allow the veneration/adoration of them.
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Of course there are liberal denominations. That’s understood. It’s one of the inherent unbiblical scandals of Protestantism. The fact remains that only a tiny number of historic Protestants have believed in iconoclasm. Even most Calvinists today do not.
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Catholics and Orthodox do not “adore” images. We only venerate (honor) them, which is an essentially different thing and not worship or adoration. Get the terminology and categories right. You may be unable to distinguish those categories but we do and you have a responsibility to not misrepresent what we believe (the commandment to not bear false witness).
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Calvinism today (including even the “orthodox 5-point TULIP ones like yourself) has become liberal, too: for example, regarding the permissibility of artificial contraception, which no Protestant denomination accepted before 1930 (the Anglican Lambeth Conference). All the original Protestants (including John Calvin) also believed in the perpetual virginity of Mary.
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Let me ask you: if you had your way (wholly apart from legal considerations), would you decapitate a statue of our Lord Jesus Christ? Would you tear to pieces a crucifix depicting our Lord’s sacrificial death for us? Would you smash any and all stained glass windows? Would you destroy a beautiful pipe organ, such as the ones that Bach played? Would you burn bare crosses? Would you cover a beautiful painting of a biblical event with white paint? Would you blow up Michelangelo’s “Pieta” (the Blessed Virgin Mary holding the dead body of her Son)? Your Calvinist ancestors have done all these things (save for the latter, which many WOULD do if they could).
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You say it’s all idolatry and the equivalent of the Golden Calf. God said to destroy all such idols. So how could you not do so (again if you could without being tried, sentenced, and jailed), according to your iconoclasm?
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There is a statue of John Calvin at the Geneva wall. That’s okay, but statues of Jesus Christ aren’t? That’s not idolatry, but the ones with Jesus are?
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Regarding violent iconoclasm, I briefly touched on what my position was in my article, which is this: such images and idols should be removed by the government in a Christian state. I would not advocate for random Protestants going into EO or RC parishes and destroying images. In particular, I would like to see Rome (and Constantinople) repent of its error and remove the images from their churches, similar to what St. Epiphanius of Salamis did in one particular church.

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Photo credit: The Consecration of St Augustine, by Jaume Huguet (1412-1492) [public domain / Wikimedia Commons]
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Summary: Calvinist apologist Matt Hedges claimed that St. Basil the Great & St. Augustine opposed the veneration of images and communion of saints. I demonstrate quite otherwise.

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