2021-12-06T23:58:33-04:00

I have decided to restore this piece, originally from 8-6-13, to my blog, for reasons that I shared at the end of my revised article, Top Ten All-Time Favorite Insults Sent My Way, underneath Shawn’s entry (which must be read to be believed) that had been restored to its rightful #1 position. What may appear petty or indicative of bitterness is much better understood as not that at all, once all the facts and the backstory are known. I had removed from my blog (except for short periods, before thinking better of it) all of my defenses of myself against these outrageous attacks, brought on by my condemnation of the nuclear bombings of Japan, essentially since 2006 when we first became estranged,

Now, since the attacks from Shawn against me in public keep continuing, I will defend myself by restoring an eight-year-old article. No one can possibly say I have no right to do this, and no Catholic is obliged to always turn the other cheek. St. Paul strongly defended himself at his trial. St. John Henry Cardinal Newman devoted an entire book to refuting scurrilous anti-Catholic public lies he had endured (Apologia pro vita sua): and convinced many in thoroughly Protestant England that he had been greatly wronged. Shawn’s words will be in blue. Most of them were on a public Facebook thread that he later removed, but without (as usual) any apology or retraction)

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His garbage remains up to this day on his old site, Rerum Novarum. Just search for my name there and you’ll find posts like, “On David Armstrong’s Tragic Mental Meltdown”: discussing my “pathetic delusions,” etc. You get the idea. Here’s my absolute favorite of his reams and reams of insults and lies at my expense (I am blessed with no end of belly-splitting laughter over this one, whenever I read it):

[Y]our claim to want to dialogue was a sham exactly as I said it was. You should have had the decency to have admitted to it publicly rather than try to pretend that you wanted to dialogue. Furthermore, if you never intended to interact with my arguments, then you have NO BASIS WHATSOEVER for crying about how soundly I bitchslapped your crap down publicly . . .

Alas, I’m not the only apologist in Shawn’s huge three-car garage doghouse. For example, here he is writing about me in boorish and inane fashion, on 10 December 2006:

For one thing, he tries to bring into the picture Dr. Scott Hahn, Steve Ray, and Pat Madrid as if they are necessarily being viewed by me in the same light as I do Karl Keating, Jimmy Akin, . . . and himself. Secondly, Dave obviously is interested in playing this up in his predictable Jerry Springeresque way . . . Dave, Jimmy, . . . and/or their uncritical and fawning sycophants . . .

For some reason Keating and Akin are in Shawn’s doghouse with yours truly, while Hahn, Ray, and Madrid manage to escape it. What’s the huge difference? Well, none, really (all three of the “good guys” have given very glowing reviews of my work, by the way), except whether ol’ Shawn grants them his Good Housekeeping Seal of Approval or not! As if anyone cares in the first place. . .!

Not many cared at all about Shawn’s endless, War and Peace pontifications, as he consistently used to get about ten readers per day, average, on his site. But no doubt he would say that this was because his sublime profundities were well beyond the grasp of the unwashed masses of ignorant peasantry. At least he had the eventual sense to shut the thing down. In past years (before all he could do was rant against me and other apologists), he actually did quite a bit of valuable work, especially about radical Catholic reactionary errors: some of which I still cite, despite all.

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Everyone knows how utterly fearful I am of one-on-one debate.  That’s why I have about 700 debates posted online, because I am scared to death of them. I guess that’s why I once did a talk (in person) with sixteen atheists and agnostics: me being the only theist (let alone Catholic) in the room. It’s obviously the reason why I have been on national radio shows (Catholic Answers Live twice), answering questions live, with no idea what they might be.

This sort of abject fear led me to debate James White spontaneously one night in his chat room, or take on Matt Slick of CARM fame, or engage anti-Catholic apologist Jason Engwer in hostile territory at CARM, debating whether the Church Fathers believed in sola Scriptura. He did so poorly that he split even before it was halfway done.

And we see (above and below) how Shawn “argues”. He’s the very last person to be lecturing anyone about how to engage in calm, rational, constructive (minimally ethical and charitable) argumentation. I would send my three sons to a rabid hedgehog in heat to learn how to dialogue before I would send them to Shawn. In any event, good will, attribution of good faith, and mutual respect are required for any good dialogue to take place — to be possible at all — , per Plato and Socrates (as I have often noted).

This was just another example of Dave wading onto a thread and subject he did not know as much about as he tried to pretend and could not admit that lest he lose face. Saimo-saimo with The Venerrrrablleeee Daaaaaviiiiid basically but I digress

So now I don’t know anything about “traditionalism” and it’s opposing faction, the radical Catholic reactionaries. That’s odd, since Shawn himself used to be quite effusive in his praise of my apologetics till he and I disagreed on nuclear war and whether incinerating 100,000 civilians is right in line with Catholic just war ethics or not. I’m almost positive that would have included my work in critique of the radical Catholic reactionaries. In fact, this is indeed documented. In his third edition of A Prescription Against ‘Traditionalism’ — dated 17 March 2003, Shawn writes the following in the Acknowledgements (I’m one of four people he thanks at greater length):

David Armstrong whose critique of a few section attempts at a revision in early 2002 (which were subsequently lost in my harddrive crash of May 2002) was nonetheless influential in my approach to this third edition. (And of course being linked to Dave’s ubersite the past few years: a tremendous circumstance that undoubtedly widened the viewing audience of this work.)

I was also thanked in the first edition, with many others. Is this not hilarious? I go from being thanked as “influential” in Shawn’s magnus opus against radical Catholic reactionaries in 1998 / 2003, to being lied about as a more or less ignoramus on the topic, in March 2013.

[D]id I not tell you . . . that Dave would find a way of bringing me into the mix if he could? 

Shawn started gossiping about me as soon as he had opportunity to do so, in one of the attack threads. But if I dare respond to his lies, that’s me trying to drag him into the conflict, and somehow being paranoid / mentally ill / contentious [or insert chosen alternate epithet] . . . this is classic Shawn polemics. This is how cynical revisionism and creation of fairy tales proceed: urinating all over the actual facts of the matter, which are plain as day.

I doubt I have said one word to him in about six years but he is STILL smarting over getting his ass handed to him back in 2005 and 2006 when he bit off more than he could chew with me. 

Humility or truth-telling about his own deficiencies was never one of Shawn’s strong points . . .

I am no psychologist but Dave sure shows symptoms of NPD in the way he reacts to things and the way he cannot let anything drop. 

Oh, of course. No attacks on me would be complete without personality / mental analysis. “NPD” is “Narcissistic Personality Disorder.”  This is the strictly comedic and entertaining aspect of otherwise tedious and ultra-boring ad hominem attacks. The anti-Catholics love to do the same thing (this is one of their favorite slanders; lacking any rational arguments), and Shawn will readily use any lie from their playbook, on the old principle of “my enemy’s enemy is my friend.” Pray for the man. One can only pity one who feels the need to stoop so low.

It’s real simple, folks; makes perfect sense; nothing mentally ill about it at all. I document because people (ones who want to clash with me) have a tendency to revise the past. I know this because it has happened over and over: much first-hand experience. If I didn’t keep people’s words (the ones who feel led to personally attack me), they would simply spin them as if they were no big deal.

After all, a person that is willing to shamelessly lie about another has no compunction about lying about the lies later on, to cover their own tails and present themselves in a saintly (or at least situationally faultless) light that never was the case. I don’t give it a moment’s thought otherwise. If the thing rears its ugly head again, I have the documentation. And oh, how people hate that!!! Shawn agrees completely with this methodology because he does it himself. On the public Facebook group, Banished by Mark Shea: A Support Group, Shawn wrote on 23 March 2013:

[I]f I can offer one piece of advice for anyone who tangles with MS [Mark Shea], it is this: document what happened. Keep copies of all written correspondence either in his comboxes, on your own pages, or whatever and if you can take screenshots for preservation purposes, do that as well. I am glad I kept stuff from years past on this stuff not to relive it but instead to make sure the historical record remains preserved lest folks like him try and play the role of the historical revisionist viz. what actually happened and what he would like to pretend happened.

When I deign to cite Shawn’s own words, however, all of that flies out the window and he comes back with the old mental illness canard and gripes about things being years old. He has to. This is his modus operandi. It’s like a hog scratching his itch. He’s gotta do it!

The actual narcissists and glory-seekers out there wouldn’t last a month in my field, since what they’re about is looking for praise and rapt admiration all the time. That doesn’t exactly coincide with apologetics (to vastly understate it)!

Nothing like the facts . . . They sit in my “Idiotic Comments and Attacks” file. Big Deal! All Shawn can do these days is sit on the sidelines and lob imbecilic attacks and flatulent avalanches of words. If he’s not going after (with his rah-rah buddies patting him on the back and indulging his sin), he can always flail away at his numerous other targets: Karl Keating, Jimmy Akin, the class of apologists as a whole, men, women, human beings, dogs, cats, mice, the ocean; anything on God’s green earth will do, as long as it is a target . . .

I mean, its been more than SEVEN YEARS now and he is still going around digging up tidbits from my mothballed weblog from those conflicts that he spins out of context. He has to do that because context on these things is not his friend and deep down, he knows it.

Yes; down deep (at least in my better, most honest moments) I know that Shawn is my overlord and superior in every way: ethically, mentally, intellectually, as a writer, debater, amateur philosopher, political junkie, as a webmaster (with his ten hits a day average that he never managed to break out of), as a sports fan, athlete, cookie-maker, weed-puller, repairer of can openers, you name it: anything and everything! He’d probably even beat me in chess and arm-wrestling. But he can’t outlaugh me. When I read his drivel, I laugh and laugh till the cows come home: till my gut hurts; till I cry a bucket . . . I think he missed his calling as a comedian.

All this does is illustrate why I proactively blocked him on FB as soon as I found out he was on here: I have no interest in retreading old ground and being trolled by this person.

Oh, that is great news! Delighted to hear it. This is delicious irony. Shawn sits there attacking and gossiping away in the slander-thread, while if I try to defend myself at all there, my comments are deleted. But I am the troll, you see, and he’s pure as the driven snow.

[someone else] “Boy am I clueless. I don’t even know who Dave is.”

Count your blessings, . . .!

Obviously a lot of people have way too much time on their hands, if all they can manage to do is attack and lie about me. As always (I’ve been subjected to 17 years of this sort of thing, online), it doesn’t do the slightest thing to stop the work I am called to. My argument that brought on all the galaxies of manure and imbecilic sewer scum attacks is still here, intact. And that’s all that matters. Who cares about all the other nonsense and verbal diarrhea? Let the nattering nabobs play, pat each other on the back (to rationalize their sin), and pummel away . . .

It was mid-August 2005-Spring of 2006 with flare-ups that summer and fall. I sought to end it in September of 2006 and Dave then sought a “reconciliation” in January 2007 which in retrospect it seems he just used as a ruse to lure me back in and try and get me to affirm his whitewashed version of previous events by default. 
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Even my attempts at reconciliation are a “ruse” . . . you see the cynical spirit at work here. That is the spirit of the father of lies, the accuser (and I’m not trying to be melodramatic at all; just matter of fact); not of the God of the royal commandment and 1 Corinthians 13. This is not the Spirit of Christ. And this is why reconciliation was impossible, with his unyielding demand that I must admit I am an inveterate and deliberate liar, as his first condition. Once I admit that and bow and kiss his feet, everything’s great! Well, hell’s gonna freeze over before I will kowtow and admit (just so he can feel smugly superior) I was a liar and scumbag, when it was not the case at all. My big outrage was to merely disagree with the man.
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I finally took the emails I wrote to him, edited mentions of him out of them, edited any of his actual words out of them, and structured the sequences into three threads that encapsulated the core problems I had with him and blogged them in the winter and spring of 2007. Those three threads are now required interaction by him if he truly wants a reconciliation or not and by all appearances he does not.
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I always did want reconciliation (as I do with anyone with whom I have had a falling-out). I tried everything under the sun: reason, pleading, endless explanations of prior comments and arguments I made that Shawn would relentlessly and cavalierly (not to mention quite pompously and arrogantly) blow off as “grandstanding” or “insincere”.  Finally, I removed all replies about him and anything about him at all from my blog (except a few places where I cite work of his that had some actual value: that he used to do, once upon a time).
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At length, I worked with Dr. Art Sippo, a mutual friend (who agreed with Shawn’s position on the nuclear issue), to try to achieve a breakthrough. He quickly persuaded me to remove the papers, but of course (shock!) Shawn was absolutely inflexible (but I’m the one with the grudge, you see, while his innumerable flatulent attack-papers remain online to this day). Now you can all see how he requires these asinine conditions. Essentially I have to admit that he kicked my butt in the nuclear debate — which is untrue — and that he was absolutely right, and I was dead-wrong, or else I am necessarily (by the singular Shawn “logic”) dishonest and a liar beyond all doubt. He mocks any and all of my attempts at reconciliation as insincere.

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Nothing can be done with him. I mightily tried (far more than most people would have had the patience to do). My conscience is perfectly clear on this. God understands contentious people: that we can’t always get along with them, no matter how hard we try. His present resumption of personal attacks at the drop of a hat, without the slightest attempt to hear or interact with my side, is hardly grounds for hope of a reconciliation. I wish the man well. I have no resentment at all (I don’t waste time with that in my life). I’m simply passionately responding to nonsense and calumny. May God bless him abundantly in all things.

In light of that and other similar issues with other folks . . ., to say that I have a view of apologetics now as a rule that is lower than my view of prostitution is no small exaggeration. But that is another subject altogether for another time.
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I like that! My profession is lower than being a whore. Isn’t that a wonderfully edifying thought? Now the world’s oldest and most disgusting, loathsome professions are not one and the same. It’s a split ticket. We apologists are the lowest of the low: cain’t get no lower than us’n’s!.

But of course ol’ Shawn brings no personal or intellectual bias to the present conversation; not at all (and no one could possibly think that!). No! It’s all sweetness and light and rock-solid objectivity from our friend. I’m over here degrading myself (on a level lower than the ethics of prostitution) by trying to help folks escape from the prison of radical Catholic reactionary nonsense, but it’s all worthless, because I supposedly (like Akin and Keating and others) used one word like a dummy and an ignoramus; and I must be attacked at every turn with lies and calumnies for doing so.

That’s the problem with someone like you who is not interested in the truth but instead just spinning anything they can into whatever revisionist light best suits their inflated ego. I am thinking of going back to where I reviewed one of his books on Amazon and deleting the review -the thought of saying anything nice about someone who acts this way is frankly something I am starting to regret.
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. . . I am through on this thread feeding Dave’s massive revisionist ego. I will pray for him that he seeks the help he so badly needs and accept this as a reminder of why Christian unity in general is such a seemingly insurmountable mountain and only by God’s grace will it ever occur on this side of the eschaton.

[reply to someone who was mockingly saying they “disagreed” with me; as if no one can ever do so] So you were “Denying The Faith” then,. . .?
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Trying to use controversy to create fictitious monsters to then ask for money to “fight the monsters” is part and parcel of the whole schtick. I would actually have loved to be proven wrong on this (and conceivably still could be) but so far, every prediction I made on this whole episode privately has come to pass.

. . . the problem with those who act the way certain parties have been is they lose sympathy where the area of possible misunderstandings are concerned. There is also the issue of objective manifestation vs. subjective intention, something I tried to explain until I was blue in the face to no avail. But as it is apropo here, I will briefly touch on it anew. Essentially, one can say something meaning one intention that if you look at what is said objectively at face value conveys a different meaning altogether. So many problems would not exist if more folks realized that sometimes the way they think they are coming across is not how they actually are. (And of course they would have to look as objectively as they could as to how contextually they come across.) But if you cannot get someone to even consider that they may have run afoul in this area, then you have no hope of ever getting through to them period and that is what [name] has seen in the circumstance she encountered with someone whose name shant be mentioned here. 

Flail away, Shawn! God sees everything you are doing . . . . Reply is perfectly futile at this point. The above is more than enough its own refutation and self-condemnation, for anyone with the slightest acquaintance with New Testament Christian ethics.
Fortunately, I didn’t take up this vocation to win a popularity contest in the first place (or to become rich: another apparent misconception of many: at least in my case).
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ADDENDUM: Documentation
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Lest anyone doubt that much material at my expense remains up on Shawn’s blog, Rerum Novarum (which remains online to this day), here is the documentation: [one / two / three / four / five / six / seven / eight / nine / ten (ultra-hypocritical reply to one of the times I dared to speak out against his nonsense) / eleven / twelve / thirteen / fourteen / fifteen / sixteen / seventeen / eighteen / nineteen / twenty / twenty-one / twenty-two / twenty-three].

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And here is a glowing review (what he used to write about me before I dared to disagree with him). He chose my blog as the best for Catholic apologetics in 2004: about six months before our parting ways. He used to (before I sadly descended into my “tragic mental meltdown”) regularly refer to me as his “good friend” [one / two / three / four] or otherwise commend or cite me as a good apologist and debater [one / two].
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ADDENDUM 2: Facebook Citation

I made the following citation and comment [in a much shorter version] on Facebook. Since Shawn could quite possibly complain (assuming someone informed him) that he can’t read it there (being banned), I have also included it here in a public blog post (in expanded form) that he — like anyone else — can read (though he is banned from commenting on my blog, too). If he wants to respond, he need only have a friend pass it along and I will add it here with response.

Just one example of hundreds from Shawn:
Now, we have his latest attempts at public spectacle for what reason I have no idea. I suppose one could speculate that it was to generate more $$$ for his apologetics endeavours or even simply because he cannot let what happened last year go. But ultimately, his reasons for why he did this do not matter. Once again, I did not in any way compel him to have to respond to anything on that subject. And (furthermore), it was never necessary to make this an issue of personalities though that is what he chose (for some reason) to do.
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Oh and do not be deceived: Dave knows full well that I did not smear him at all -not last year, not earlier this year, and not at the present time. Instead, I made assertions that I more than adequately substantiated. My logic was solid and my reasoning unimpaired. But Dave cannot admit to this because his apologists ego gets in the way.
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The apologetic mindset involves always having to win arguments. And rather than showing some humility and admitting it in circumstances where they may have bit off more than they can chew on something, it is viewed as better by them to shoot the proverbial messenger. I have tried every conceivable way to get through to Dave and nothing has worked. I see no reason to say anything else except to correct his latest attempt at manufacturing some supposed double standard on my part and then bid him farewell. The Bible says that certain kinds of demons are only cast out by prayer and fasting…I am not saying Dave is possessed but this has to be one of those kinds of difficulties where something beyond the normal protocol is needed. (8-27-06, and this is the “revised” version, which he says was toned-down, based on suggestions of a mutual friend! That was done more than seven years later, on 10-2-13)
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He also issued an apology in this added note from 2013, which is in any event only related to this post (out of some twenty total), and was never made known to me. I had never seen it until now (thanks, Shawn, I accept it, but this is only the first step of a thousand-mild journey):
[T]hough I stand by the substance of my original critiques, I do nonetheless profoundly regret letting my anger get the better of me in how I originally responded to Dave Armstrong in this post and extend to him through this effort as well as in words a most sincere apology.
Obviously, he thinks the above “revised” version is fine and dandy and requires no retraction or apology . . . Amazing . . . Among other things revised was the title. It’s now “‘C’est La Vie’ Dept. on the David Armstrong Affair.” Originally, the title was “On David Armstrong’s Tragic Mental Meltdown.” Without, however, seeing the original and how absolutely outrageous and unethical it was, readers could never fully understand my strong reaction and demand for retraction.
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Shawn was so prideful that it took him over seven years to figure out that statements such as those below (in blue) needed to be retracted, removed, or modified. And then even his revised version was still filled with calumnies. I document the following removed material from an archived copy (dated 10-27-06) of the original “no-holds barred” pre-revised version from 8-27-06 (original in blue; revision in green):

I allowed myself to be suckered back into dealing with Mr. Armstrong’s pathetic delusions. [addition at the beginning from 9-28-06] . . . escalating bilge [“revisionism”] . . . David’s fantasies and illogical public grandstanding [“David’s portrayal of events”] . . . grandstands [“publicly proclaims”] . . . Dave has inexorably become another Captain Queeg [Dave’s portrayals are at variance with reality] . . . Obviously, I was wrong again to think Dave was in any way a reasonable person. [to think Dave would handle these matters reasonably] . . . an issue where I knew he would get creamed [I knew he was seriously out of his element] . . . Now, we have his latest attempts at Jerry Springeresque grandstanding [attempts at public spectacle] . . . unless it is because his fragile ego is still hurting from the thrashing he got last year [he cannot let what happened last year go] . . . when they do not “win”, they go about all sorts of disgraceful historical revisionism, tearing their interlocuters words from context, etc. [removed] . . . it is viewed as better by them to demonize [shoot the proverbial messenger] . . . The Bible says that certain kinds of demons are only cast out by prayer and fasting…this has to be one of them [I am not saying Dave is possessed] . . . Oh and these exhortations came each time after Dave publicly said something that I knew I could make mincemeat of. (Or Dave repeating arguments I had already dispatched with as if they were still viable.) Not that any of this matter of course…Dave will continue to misrepresent me it seems. I do not know why he does this and I have given up trying to figure it out since logically it makes no sense. [removed] . . . Dave’s villainizing of me [the manner in which Dave has treated me] . . . to ban or silence serious criticism in order to entertain or puff oneself up against lessor sorts is not the sign of an honourable person [in order to make public displays against more insignificant challenges is not a sign of honour] . . . go ahead with the 96th installment of how . . . you are the incarnation of St. Paul and all that jazz. The rest of us have things in the real world of far more pressing issues to deal with: such as proposing viable approaches to combat the problems in society that would work in reality and not just in fantasy. [removed] . . . There is also the fact that Dave has basically done everything he can to get readership including continually trying to manufacture conflicts as people are naturally drawn to them much as they are to a trainwreck. Dave is also quite good at casting himself as the martyr. There will always be a certain large segment of humanity that is drawn to that sort of thing -even if only out of curiosity. And that is really all one needs to do to manufacture “hits” to a site. [Excerpt from Rerum Novarum (circa August 16, 2006)] [intact]

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Addendum 3: Shawn’s Condescending Attacks in Mary Pezzulo’s Hit-Piece Combox

I had a falling out with The Venerable David over 15 years ago. I remember in the process explaining to him in no small detail how his carefully crafted supposed “dialogues” were actually self centered monologues and how his claims of wanting a dialogue with me on the subject of our disagreement was a sham. (Well that and the reams of argumentation fallacies he engaged in, admittedly I was quite heelish documenting them chapter and verse once he sufficiently pissed me off, mea culpa!) Where am I going with all this?

Well, it is quite nice to finally see so many others realizing after all this time that The Venerable David is quite far from what he presents himself to be. I used to think he was remarkably tonedeaf on these matters not due to disingenuousness but simply because he was blinded by his ego. Now I am not so sure it is not a bit of both.

Apologetics after all can be quite the ego stroking enterprise and without safeguards in place to act as checks on one’s pride, it is not hard to see why so many go astray and make shipwreck of not only their faith but even of basic human decency. It saddens me to see The Venerable David sink to a level not even I thought he would go and bully someone having crisis of faith issues. I do not know who Audrey Assad is but she has my sympathy as well as my prayers. Hopefully she will eventually realize if she does not already that there are folks out there more interested in building bridges than dynamiting them and will not be afraid to reach out.

[for those unfamiliar with this controversy, I had already apologized to Audrey Assad and completely removed my original critique of her deconversion before Shawn even wrote these things. Whether Mary ever even noted this in her combox, I don’t know. Mary, Shawn, and many other hostile, ultra-uncharitable critics of my original post on her blog seem to think that all critiques of deconversions away from Catholicism are fundamentally wrong and uncharitable, and should never be done.
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I removed this one analysis of mine (and publicly retracted it and apologized personally to Audrey) because I had gotten some facts wrong. Period. I didn’t because I denounce all such attempts to criticize deconversions. I explained why I don’t in my post, Why Do I (or How DARE I?!) Critique Deconversions? (10-5-21), and I responded to Proud Mary’s many patronizing and erroneous blasts in my post Proud Mary Keep On Boinin’ . . . (10-6-21). It’s amazing how different a story is if you hear both sides, isn’t it?]

The Venerable David loves to engage in historical airbrushing. It is one reason I have resolutely refused to take down any of our past public exchanges circa 2005-2006 though, in the interest of an attempted rapproachment in late 2013 –encouraged by at the time mutual friends; some of whom VD has since blocked, I did revise four of the pieces where the invective was in retrospect off the charts by removing all polemic from them. I even had a third party on good terms with both him and I review the original threads and recommend modifications to me -the lions share of which I implemented. Though the process went against my instincts, I did it anyway hoping if nothing else to create a kind of detente. Despite those efforts, none of that was good enough for him.

The mere fact that he could be so thoroughly embarrassed publicly in any capacity (irrespective of how irenic the text doing so was) simply was something he could not handle. You would think the solution would be to not shoot ones mouth off on subjects to which they were (and are) so woefully ignorant. But the pride of the apologist keeps them oftentimes from knowing both their own limitations as well as the limitations of the apologetic method even when properly utilized. That is why we are treated to a series of “ready, fire, aim” type ponderous and self serving tomes of text which appear and at times magically disappear from folks like him. It is anything to avoid being accountable for their actions and statements in a nutshell.

I am guessing the problem here is a deeper and perhaps mainly a spiritual one. Despite him thinking I am an agent of the Devil, I will keep The Venerable David in prayer.

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Photo credit: [Pexels.com / Pixabay / CC0 license]
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Summary: After more than 15 years of basically turning the other cheek against the groundless personal insults of Shawn McElhinney, I have decided to say my piece.
2021-12-01T12:57:28-04:00

This article came about as a result of dialogues on atheist Jonathan MS Pearce’s blog, A Tippling Philosopher. Words of atheist Geoff Benson will be in blue; those of atheist eric in green, and Jonathan MS Pearce‘s in purple.

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On the odd occasions I venture to religious Patheos I never fail to be surprised by how little comment they generate.

I’ve explained this several times. We’re preaching to the choir in large part and so our followers agree with what we write.

With atheists, on the other hand, they feel themselves put-upon and persecuted by the larger Christian culture (except maybe not in the extremely post-Christian UK) and so they love to get together and bolster each other’s confidence, by (largely) mocking, insulting, and caricaturing Christians and Christianity and the Bible, so as to rationalize their own disbelief.

This generates tons of comments, whereas no Christian site can be found with an analogous obsession with pummeling atheists. We’re more busy getting on with our lives.

Moreover, we readily see here and in other atheist sites that it is relatively few folks commenting over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again.

So you might have four obsessed atheists making fifty comments each in a thread (that’s already 200 in short order) and a few brave theists going back-and-forth with ’em, for another 150-200 (mostly short, tweet-like utterances) and you’re quickly up to 400, but what does this prove? The truth of atheism? Hardly. It proves that these four people have nothing better to do than to mock and caricature a Supreme Being that they don’t even believe exists.

It’s true obsession and the True Believer syndrome. And it’s mostly an echo chamber and an impervious bubble.

Bert [Bigelow]‘s scorecard shows we could pretty much all do with a bit more focus on content posts and fewer snipes. However if you think the traffic difference is merely a ‘squeaky wheel’ effect of few but greater posting nonbelievers, rather than than an actual difference in what on-line folks are interested in discussing, then I think you’re engaging in a bit of wishful thinking. There’s been a roughly 12-point drop in the last 10 years in USAians who self-identify as Christian, and a corresponding growth in Nones. And young people are on line much more than older people. You don’t think the traffic trends such as the one on Patheos might be related to this very real trend? That it’s just an echo chamber effect not related to the number of real young people turning from religious to nonreligious thought? I would argue that places like here, right here, and places like your site, are where you’re losing the next generation. That traffic differences in places such as Patheos are at the very least a trailing indicator of that real trend, if not a leading cause.

Absolutely. That’s what I didn’t mention: the growth of atheism. That means lots of “young Turks” coming on like gangbusters, full of zeal and fury alike. I spoke generally. There are other factors as well. This is one of them.

Just for the record, my blog at the Catholic channel [at Patheos, the same host as Jonathan’s blog] either gets the most traffic or is near the top and has been for over six years. Also, comments don’t count as pageviews, as I understand it.

So it’s not exactly my blog that is on the leading edge of driving people into atheism. In fact, there are several hundred documented cases of folks crediting my writing for their becoming Catholics or returning to the Church.

Secularism has been growing and expanding since WWII and really took off after the Sexual Revolution. What we see today is no surprise at all. I’ve been saying for years that the US is ten years behind the secularism in Canada and 20 behind the UK. It has all come to pass. We’ll have hell to pay in the long run as a result. Western Civilization is an increasingly unpleasant place to be.

Fun fact: the nonreligious channel produces over half of the traffic to the entire Patheos site.

Exactly: for the reasons I gave. Traffic is not the end-all of significance. Thinking it is is just the ad populum fallacy, and you know better than that. Me, I prefer substantive content and quality to mostly insults and caricatures and quantity.

Porn sites no doubt have exponentially more traffic than atheist sites. Does it follow that they are better or more worthwhile or important? Of course not.

Now you’re shifting the goal posts. Your original claim was that the higher traffic on JP’s site was due to (I’ll quote you): “it is relatively few folks commenting over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again.” What I’ve pointed out is that this is probably not true. Your statement is not true.

Why: because we have statistical trend data to indicate that there is a real shift in the number of USAians expressing None-type ideology vs. traditional Catholic or Protestant theology, and this data shows that the shift is occurring predominantly in the young. Given that young people tend to be more on-line, it seems very reasonable to conclude from our statistical information that the observed predominance of None-type talk over traditional theological talk on places such as Patheos is driven by an actual predominance of None-type viewers over traditional theological viewers amongst the real posters who visit and post on Patheos. Your lower traffic is not due to JP getting ‘four people who post 50 comments each’, it’s due to a higher number of individual visitors – actual people – who would rather read JP’s stuff than yours.

I have no idea whether the traffic on porn sites is due to a few many-repeat visitors or a broader base that visits them less frequently. I’ll take a SWAG and say I bet the distribution follows the power law. But I do know that when someone starts a conversation talking about whether traffic is generated by a few individuals vs. many, and ends by saying they were discussing post quality not quantity of visitors, that that is a goalpost shift.

Well said. And you are right in linking it to trend data and demographic shifts. AFAICT all the Patheos traffic data shows this. Patheos know this too, which presents a dilemma, because they both need us and hate what we say!

Nonsense. I first made a generalized statement about actual commenter behavior (which was backed up, incidentally, by the recent criticisms of site co-operator Bert Bigelow). Then when the phenomenon of growing atheism was mentioned, I readily agreed, saying, “Absolutely. That’s what I didn’t mention: the growth of atheism. . . . I spoke generally. There are other factors as well. This is one of them.”

One generalization doesn’t rule out others, as if there is but one cause for any given state of affairs, or as if my saying the second thing (agreeing with you) contradicts my original observation. So your comment is fundamentally silly. No one is more aware of multiple causation than a sociology major, as I was. We see the results of secularism all around us in the US. My family sees it in our children’s friends: ostensibly Catholic or Protestant, but becoming obviously more secularized and leftist and sexually liberal all the time. It’s happening right before our eyes. I’m the last one to deny that.

Clearly, a rise in atheists will lead to more traffic on atheist sites. DUH! But one must also make a deeper analysis. What we see online is not representative of entire communities, whether we are talking about Christians or atheists. It’s a small sub-sector. Atheists online tend to be of the anti-theist variety: always running down Christianity and Christians and the Bible.

But atheists in real life are quite different (broadly speaking). They’re not as obsessed with Christianity. I know this, too, having been with many of them in person, in their homes (and my home), in extensive dialogue. So I can talk about online atheist behavior, while knowing full well that it doesn’t represent atheists across the board. The same is true of unsavory Christian expression online as well.

People behave very differently online, compared to in person.

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It’s no coincidence that countries recording the highest levels of contentment and happiness are also the most secular. The US is at a strange, I think transitional, stage at the moment where it understands the enlightened world of reason and rationality, but somehow is unable to shake off the yoke of religious belief. I know you are diametrically opposed to this view, but I think I’m seeing it for what it is.

I found an article from a site called Philanthropy Roundtable, entitled, “Less God, Less Giving?: Religion and generosity feed each other in fascinating ways” (Karl Zinsmeister, Winter 2019). I shall cite it at length (because there is so much great and relevant information in this article):

When researchers document how people spend their hours and their money, religious Americans look very different from others. Pew Research Center investigators examined the behavior of a large sample of the public across a typical seven-day period. They found that among Americans who attend services weekly and pray daily, 45 percent had done volunteer work during the previous week. Among all other Americans, only 27 percent had volunteered somewhere. (See graph 7)

The capacity of religion to motivate pro-social behavior goes way beyond volunteering. Religious people are more involved in community groups. They have stronger links with their neighbors. They are more engaged with their own families. Pew has found that among Americans who attend worship weekly and pray daily, about half gather with extended family members at least once a month. For the rest of our population, it’s 30 percent. (See graph 8)

Of all the “associational” activity that takes place in the U.S., almost half is church-related, according to Harvard sociologist Robert Putnam. “As a whole,” notes Tim Keller,  “secularism is not good for society.” Secularism “makes people very fragmented—they might talk about community, but they aren’t sacrificing their own personal goals for community, as religion requires you to do.”

Religious practice links us in webs of mutual knowledge, responsibility, and support like no other influence. Seven out of ten weekly church attenders told Pew they consider “work to help the needy” an “essential part” of their faith. Most of them put their money and time where their mouth is: 65 percent of weekly church attenders were found to have donated either volunteer hours or money or goods to the poor within the previous week. (See graph 9)

Philanthropic studies show that people with a religious affiliation give away several times as much every year as other Americans. Research by the Lilly School at Indiana University found Americans with any religious affiliation made average annual charitable donations of $1,590, versus $695 for those with no religious affiliation. Another report using data from the Panel Study for Income Dynamics juxtaposed Americans who do not attend religious services with those who attend worship at least twice a month, and made fine-tunings to compare demographic apples to apples. The results: $2,935 of annual charitable giving for the church attenders, versus $704 for the non-attenders. (See graph 10) In addition to giving larger amounts, the religious give more often—making gifts about half again as frequently.

In study after study, religious practice is the behavioral variable with the strongest and most consistent association with generous giving. And people with religious motivations don’t give just to faith-based causes—they are also much likelier to give to secular causes than the nonreligious. Two thirds of people who worship at least twice a month give to secular causes, compared to less than half of non-attenders, and the average secular gift by a church attender is 20 percent bigger. (See graph 11) . . .

America’s tradition of voluntary charitable giving is one of the clearest markers of U.S. exceptionalism. As a fraction of our income, we donate over two and a half times as much as Britons do, more than eight times as much as the Germans, and at 12 times the rate of the Japanese. . . .

Other research shows that of America’s top 50 charities, 40 percent are faith-based.

An even more inclusive 2016 study by Georgetown University economist Brian Grim calculated the economic value of all U.S. religious activity. Its midrange estimate was that religion annually contributes $1.2 trillion of socioeconomic value to the U.S. economy. This estimate includes not only the fair market value of activity connected to churches (like $91 billion of religious schooling and daycare), and by non-church religious institutions (faith-based charities, hospitals, and colleges), but also activity by faith-related commercial organizations. That $1.2 trillion is more than the combined revenue of America’s ten biggest tech giants. It is bigger than the total economy of all but 14 entire nations. . . .

[M]embers of U.S. churches and synagogues send four and a half times as much money overseas to needy people every year as the Gates Foundation does! . . .

Over the last couple decades, soaring interest in the poorest of the poor by evangelical Christians in particular has made overseas giving the fastest growing corner of American charity. One result: U.S. voluntary giving to the overseas poor now totals $44 billion annually—far more than the $33 billion of official aid distributed by the U.S. government.

There are many other types of charity and social healing where religious givers are dominant influences.

  • Religious Americans adopt children at two and a half times the overall national rate, and they play a particularly large role in fostering and adopting troubled and hard-to-place kids. (See graph 13)
  • Local church congregations, aided by umbrella groups like Catholic Charities, provide most of the day-to-day help that resettles refugees and asylum seekers arriving in the U.S.
  • Research shows that the bulk of volunteers mentoring prisoners and their families, both while they are incarcerated and after they are released, are Christians eager to welcome offenders back into society, help them succeed, and head off returns to crime. . . .
  • Faith-based organizations are at the forefront of both care and recovery for the homeless. A 2017 study found that 58 percent of the emergency shelter beds in 11 surveyed cities are maintained by religious providers—who also delivered many of the addiction, health-care, education, and job services needed to help the homeless regain their independence. (See graph 16)
  • Local congregations provide 130,000 alcohol-recovery programs.
  • Local congregations provide 120,000 programs that assist the unemployed.
  • Local congregations provide 26,000 programs to help people living with HIV/AIDS—one ministry for every 46 people infected with the virus.
  • Churches recruit a large portion of the volunteers needed to operate organizations like Habitat for Humanity, Meals on Wheels, America’s thousands of food pantries and feeding programs, Big Brothers Big Sisters, the Red Cross, and other volunteer-dependent charities. . . .

It isn’t just a matter of serving and healing others. People of faith also behave differently themselves. There is lots of evidence that in addition to encouraging a “brother’s keeper” attitude that manifests itself in philanthropy and volunteering, religious participation also inculcates healthy habits that help individuals resist destructive personal behavior themselves.

A classic study by Harvard economist James Freeman found that black males living in inner-city poverty tracts were far less likely to engage in crime and drug use if they attended church. Church attendance was also associated with better academic performance and more success in holding jobs. Follow-up studies found that regular church attendance could even help counterbalance threats to child success like parental absence, low school quality, local drug traffic, and crime in the neighborhood.

Regular religious participation is correlated with many positive social outcomes: less poverty, fewer divorces and more marital happiness, fewer births out of wedlock, less suicide, reduced binge-drinking, less depression, better relationships. This is true among Americans of all demographic backgrounds.

Given all the evidence linking religious practice with both healthy individual behavior and generosity toward others, recent patterns of religious decline are concerning. . . .

It’s clear that America’s unusual religiosity and extraordinary generosity are closely linked. As faith spirals downward, voluntary giving is very likely to follow.

I’m suspicious of this study. Basically there’s a Templeton connection with one of the Board members, and Templeton connections never end well. You’ll criticise me for being so readily dismissive (probably rightly!) but I’m always suspicious of these sorts of study which, I think, run contrary to reality.

Of course this is the one that says Christians do more good stuff.

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The link is clear, and sociology (my major in college) confirms it. It’s not just Christians saying we are better than others (circular argumentation). And to the extent we are better, in the Christian view it is all ultimately God‘s doing. God’s grace and enabling power transform our lives and make us capable of doing good and righteous and loving, charitable things. We merely cooperate with that grace. This is the teaching of Catholicism, Orthodoxy, and historic Protestantism alike: human beings (including atheists) can literally do no good thing without the enabling power of God’s grace.

But the above information from social science clearly shows that if we want a better society, we will encourage religion, not discourage it. If we want a less caring, more heartless, less charitable, less other-directed society, we will encourage atheism and neglect of church attendance. That’s not my subjective, biased opinion as a Christian; it’s the objective data of sociology. Of course, I would have predicted precisely this, and the secular science backs up what Christianity has said all along: that God (i.e., when we actually cooperate with Him and let Him be the primary purpose of our lives) produces better, more loving and caring human beings on the whole.

See also:

Secularization: Thoughts on its Many Historical Causes [9-13-03; rev. 1-20-04]

Christian Sexual Views and Support from Sociology (Discussions About Christian Sexual Morality and Marriage with Atheists) [12-8-06]

Is America a “Moral Sewer” (Due to Secularism)? [9-5-15]

Sociology: Absence of Mother or Father Harms Children [6-23-16]

Christian Civilization Self-Demolition [8-5-16]

Debate: Do Liberal Social Policies Lessen Abortion & Poverty? [4-12-17]

Gun Control & Deep-Rooted Societal Causes of Massacres [10-5-17]

Social Science: Religion Leads to Lower Suicide Rates [6-9-18]

Seidensticker Folly #1: Atheist vs. Christian Generosity [8-12-18]

Sexual Revolution: Not “Liberation” But Societal Tragedy [9-6-19]

Sociology: Devout Married Christians Have Best Sex [2-29-20]

Sociology: Undeniably, Religion Makes Us Better Human Beings [5-10-21]

It depends on what one means by “happiness” also. The UN puts out a “World Happiness Report.” According to that, here are the happiest countries (note that they are overwhelmingly first world / western countries):

  1. Finland
    2. Denmark
    3. Switzerland
    4. Iceland
    5. Norway
    6. Netherlands
    7. Sweden
    8. New Zealand
    9. Austria
    10. Luxembourg
    11. Canada
    12. Australia
    13. United Kingdom
    14. Israel
    15. Costa Rica
    16. Ireland
    17. Germany
    18. United States
    19. Czech Republic
    20. Belgium

It looks to me like it basically boils down to the richest countries producing happier people. This is the myth that money supposedly makes one happy more than any other factor. If you believe that, I have some oceanfront property in Kansas to sell you. Hence, we see a lot of overlap between this list and a listing of the highest median income in nations:

1) Luxembourg – 26,321
2) United Arab Emirates – 24,292
3) Norway – 22,684
4) Switzerland – 21,490
5) United States – 19,306
6) Canada – 18,652
7) Austria – 18,405
8) Sweden – 17,625
9) Denmark – 17,432
10) Netherlands – 17,154

No I don’t think that’s the correlation necessarily, except insofar as poverty leads to unhappiness. Having always to wonder where your next meal comes from is a miserable existence. Wondering what your next new car might be does not necessarily generate happiness. The generally accepted view isn’t one of wealth, but of social programmes. Countries that have succeeded in achieving a mutually satisfactory social contract with its citizens, whereby the state offers care and services in return for duties and responsibilities is, more probably, the answer.

So let’s run with the UN chart a bit. Finland (Sibelius!) is the happiest country in the world? How religious is Finland?:

Most Finns are Christians. The largest religious community in Finland is the Evangelical Lutheran Church of Finland (Suomen evankelis-luterilainen kirkko), to which about 70% of the population belongs. . . .

Approximately one third of the people living in Finland do not officially belong to any religious community. [source]

Doesn’t sound atheist-dominated to me. But #2 Denmark fits much better, being 68% atheist, and the tenth most atheistic country, according to a website about the most atheistic countries.

China and Japan are the most atheist (91% and 87%), and they are nowhere to be seen on the above “happiness” chart.

#3 Switzerland is 64.6% Christian and just 27.8% unaffiliated [source].

#4 Iceland fits your schema better. It has about a 75% rate of claimed religious affiliation, although it is said that “A large part of the population remain members of the Church of Iceland, but are actually irreligious and atheists, as demonstrated by demoscopic analyses.”

#5 Norway is similar to Iceland. Religious nominalism abounds. So the Wikipedia page on its religiosity states:

“Most members of the state church are not active adherents, except for the rituals of birth, confirmation, weddings, and burials. Some 3 per cent on average attend church on Sunday and 10 per cent on average attend church every month.” . . .

[O]fficially belonging to a religion does not necessarily reflect actual religious beliefs and practices. In 2005, a survey conducted by Gallup International in sixty-five countries indicated that Norway was the least religious country in Western Europe, with 29% counting themselves as believing in a church or deity, 26% as being atheists, and 45% not being entirely certain.

It’s a mixed bag so far, with three countries of the “top 5” fitting into your view and two (including the supposedly “happiest”) more into mine.

#6 Netherlands is very secular:

The majority of the Dutch population is secular. . . . In 2015, 82% of the Netherlands’ population said they never or almost never visited a church, and 59% stated that they had never been to a church of any kind. Of all the people questioned, 24% saw themselves as atheist, . . . [source]

#7 on the happy list, Sweden, is 78% atheist.

The rest is comprised mostly of rapidly secularizing countries (since this is the case in the west, as opposed to Africa, where the trend is precisely the opposite). So you could make a case for secularism leading to more “happiness” on this basis, but again, I question the premise, which seems to be basically that more money makes a person happier (a typical secularist / non-religious view, with money becoming an almost religious and idolatrous pursuit). If the criteria were different, then there would be countries other than western ones on the list. It seems rather narrow-minded and bigoted against the non-western world.

These are almost all lily-white countries, save for Israel, Costa Rica, and the US with its large black and Hispanic minorities (which themselves are highly religious, as everyone knows). Are we to believe that to be happy, you gotta be white and rich? That is essentially the thinking of the UN in this list. I vehemently deny it. Being white and having a lot of money has very little relationship to true contentment, happiness, peace of mind, purpose, etc. I think it’s a shallow and (yes) bigoted, xenophobic analysis.

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Summary: What makes for “happy” people, and how is “happy” defined? Are atheist, secularist countries filled with “happier” people than Christian-dominated ones?

2021-11-12T12:55:54-04:00

Atheist and former Christian “eric” is a regular commentator at Jonathan MS Pearce’s Tippling Philosopher blog, where this exchange took place. His words will be in blue.

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[with heavy sarcasm and a mocking intent] It’s all quite easy. The story is literally true. You just have to remember that:

-“Wipe out mankind” means “wipe out just some mesopotamians living in the lowlands”

-“and animals as well, and crawling things” means “some local varieties of only those animal species living in mesopotamia that can’t find their way to higher ground”

-“and birds of the sky” means “a few birds, basically just those incapable of flying above a local flood level. You know, like baby chicks caught in nests.”

Of course, for any serious scholar concerned with understanding God’s message rather than critics seeking to find ways to quibble with it, the true meaning I’ve described above is obvious and clear. God’s focus on mesopotamians and those local regional animal varieties is just the plain writing of the text, people! How else could anyone of unbiased clear mind interpret those words?!?

So your position is that the Bible is always intended to be absolutely literal and that ancient Hebrew and the OT have no non-literal, metaphorical figures of speech (I have a book that details how it has over 200, with many subcategories)? “All” in the Bible always means literally “every single one, without exception“; there is no hyperbole, etc.?

Is this your position that you wish to defend? Are you truly that out to sea regarding the Old Testament?

My position is that the above interpretations specifically has no basis in scripture.
It’s a post-hoc attempt to save a literal flood story but while remaining consistent with science.

If you want to say the flood story is an allegory or myth intended to teach a moral lesson, we can discuss that. Or if you want to discuss the Song of Solomon or Psalms and the nonliteral meanings in those, we can do that too. Jesus’ parables? Sure. But if you want to say that “wipe out mankind” meant “wipe out some mesopotamians in a local flood,” no, I see no justification for thinking that’s what those words mean, and I’d ask to you provide one before I change my mind.

I long since provided evidence for non-literal aspects of the Flood language, and linked it here (and in direct reply to you), but you ignored it at the time. It’s from my article, Local Flood & Atheist Ignorance of Christian Thought. Here is the argument:

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For further reading on the interpretation of a local Flood, see geologist Carol A. Hill’s article, “The Noachian Flood: Universal or Local?” (Perspectives on Science and Christian Faith, Volume 54, Number 3, September 2002). She writes:

Earth. The Hebrew for “earth” used in Gen. 6–8 (and in Gen. 2:5–6) is eretz (‘erets) or adâmâh, both of which terms literally mean “earth, ground, land, dirt, soil, or country.” In no way can “earth” be taken to mean the planet Earth, as in Noah’s time and place, people (including the Genesis writer) had no concept of Earth as a planet and thus had no word for it. Their “world” mainly (but not entirely) encompassed the land of Mesopotamia—a flat alluvial plain enclosed by the mountains and high ground of Iran, Turkey, Syria, and Saudi Arabia (Fig. 1); i.e., the lands drained by the four rivers of Eden (Gen. 2:10–14). The biblical account must be interpreted within the narrow limit of what was known about the world in that time, not what is known about the world today.

Biblical context also makes it clear that “earth” does not necessarily mean the whole Earth. For example, the face of the ground, as used in Gen. 7:23 and Gen. 8:8 in place of “earth,” does not imply the planet Earth. “Land” is a better translation than “earth” for the Hebrew eretz because it extends to the “face of the ground” we can see around us; that is, what is within our horizon. It also can refer to a specific stretch of land in a local geographic or political sense. For example, when Zech. 5:6 says “all the earth,” it is literally talking about Palestine—a tract of land or country, not the whole planet Earth. Similarly, in Mesopotamia, the concept of “the land” (kalam in Sumerian) seems to have included the entire alluvial plain. This is most likely the correct interpretation of the term “the earth,” which is used over and over again in Gen. 6-8: the entire alluvial plain of Mesopotamia was inundated with water. The clincher to the word “earth” meaning ground or land (and not the planet Earth) is Gen. 1:10: God called the dry land earth (eretz). If God defined “earth” as “dry land,” then so should we. . . .

An excellent example of how a universal “Bible-speak” is used in Genesis to describe a non-universal, regional event is Gen. 41:46: “And the famine was over all the face of the earth.” This is the exact same language as used in Gen. 6:7, 7:3, 7:4, 8:9 and elsewhere when describing the Genesis Flood. “All (kowl) the face of the earth” has the same meaning as the “face of the whole (also kowl) earth.” So was Moses claiming that the whole planet Earth (North America, Australia, etc.) was experiencing famine? No, the universality of this verse applied only to the lands of the Near East (Egypt, Palestine, Mesopotamia), and perhaps even the Mediterranean area; i.e., the whole known world at that time.

The same principle of a limited universality in Gen. 41:46 also applies to the story of the Noachian Flood. The “earth” was the land (ground) as Noah knew (tilled) it and saw it “under heaven”—that is, the land under the sky in the visible horizon, and “all flesh” were those people and animals who had died or were perishing around the ark in the land of Mesopotamia. The language used in the scriptural narrative is thus simply that which would be natural to an eyewitness (Noah). Woolley aptly described the situation this way: “It was not a universal deluge; it was a vast flood in the valley of the Tigris and Euphrates which drowned the whole of the habitable land … for the people who lived there that was all the world (italics mine).”

Regarding specifically the water covering “all the high mountains” (Gen 7:19), Hill states:

[T]he Hebrew word har for “mountain” in Gen. 7:20 . . . can also be translated as “a range of hills” or “hill country,” implying with Gen. 7:19 that it was “all the high hills” (also har) that were covered rather than high mountains.

This being the case, Genesis 7:19-20 could simply refer to “flood waters . . . fifteen cubits above the ‘hill country’ of Mesopotamia (located in the northern, Assyrian part)”. The Hebrew word har (Strong’s #2022) can indeed mean “hills” or “hill country”, as the Brown-Driver-Briggs Lexicon defines it. Specifically for Genesis 7:19-20, this lexicon classifies the word as following:

mountain, indefinite, Job 14:18 (“” צוּר); usually plural mountains, in General, or the mountains, especially in poetry & the higher style; often figurative; הָרִים, הֶהָרִים, covered by flood Genesis 7:20 compare Genesis 7:19; . . .

In the New American Standard Version, that Jonathan Pearce believes is “renowned as the most accurate” (7-2-21), har is rendered as “hill country” many times in the Hebrew Bible: Genesis 10:30; 14:10; 31:21, 23, 25; 36:8-9; Numbers 13:17, 29; 14:40, 44-45; Deuteronomy 1:7, 19-20, 24, 41, 43-44; 2:37; 3:12, 25; Joshua 2:16, 22-23; 9:1; 10:6, 40; 11:2-3, 16; 11:21; 12:8; 13:6; 14:12; 15:48; 16:1; 17:15-16, 18; 18:12; 19:50; 20:7; 21:11, 21; 24:30, 33; Judges 1:9, 19, 34; 2:9; 3:27; 4:5; 7:24; 10:1; 12:15; 17:1, 8; 18:2, 13; 19:1, 16, 18; 1 Samuel 1:1; 9:4; 13:2; 14:22; 23:14; 2 Samuel 20:21; 1 Kings 4:8; 12:25; 2 Kings 5:22; 1 Chronicles 6:67; 2 Chronicles 13:4; 15:8; 19:4.

The same version translates har as “hill” or “hills” nine times too: Deuteronomy 8:7; 11:11; Joshua 13:19; 18:13-14, 16; 1 Kings 16:24; 2 Kings 1:9; 4:27.

Even the location of the present-day Mt. Ararat as the landing place of the ark is not required in the biblical text. Hill continues:

[T]he Bible does not actually pinpoint the exact place where the ark landed, it merely alludes to a region or range of mountains where the ark came to rest: the mountains of Ararat (Gen. 8:4). Ararat is the biblical name for Urartu (Isa. 37:38) as this area was known to the ancient Assyrians. This mountainous area, geographically centered around Lake Van and between Lake Van and Lake Urmia (Fig. 1), was part of the ancient region of “Armenia” (not limited to the country of Armenia today). “Mountain” in Gen. 8:4 is plural; therefore, the Bible does not specify that the ark landed on the highest peak of the region (Mount Ararat), only that the ark landed somewhere on the mountains or highlands of Armenia (both “Ararat” and “Urartu” can be translated as “highlands”). In biblical times, “Ararat” was actually the name of a province (not a mountain), as can be seen from its usage in 2 Kings 19:37: “… some escaped into the land of Ararat” and Jer. 51:27: “… call together against her (Israel) the kingdoms of Ararat, Minni, and Askkenaz …”

She additionally noted that:

Only in the eleventh and twelfth centuries AD did the focus of investigators begin to shift toward Mount Ararat as the ark’s final resting place, and only by the end of the fourteenth century AD does it seem to have become a fairly well established tradition. Before this, both Islamic and Christian tradition held that the landing place of the ark was on Jabel Judi, a mountain located about 30 miles (48 km) northeast of the Tigris River near Cizre, Turkey (Fig. 1).

Jabel Judi is 6,854 feet in elevation. The current Mt. Ararat wasn’t even known by that name until the Middle Ages (see more on its names in Wikipedia).

1. Your limited interpretation is not consistent with history or the story.

Your flood doesn’t cover Egypt or the Indus valley, and the people of Mesopotamia knew about both. Archaeologists have found Indian shells and beads in Mesopotamian tombs dating to 2500 BC. So I think you’re historically wrong in claiming the writers at the time thought of ‘earth’ as referring to just Mesopotamia. The other problem with your earth-as-how-the-authors-knew-it theory is that the story reports God’s words. God’s words will be based on what God knows, not what the human scribes know. Unless you’re saying that the human authors of the story made up God’s words, and so ‘earth’ and ‘mankind’ refer to earth and mankind as they, the scribes, knew it?

2. Your interpretations, applied consistently, cause the story to lose all sensible meaning.

In my opinion you want to have it both ways. When the story talks about God seeking the wickedness of mankind on the earth, you want to interpret that as being all mankind on all the earth. But then when it comes to God talking about drowning the wicked in a flood, you want interpret that as referring only to Mesopotamians. That doesn’t work. It’s the same referent. The same wicked people. Mankind in verse 6 refers to the same group as mankind in verse 7. So when verse 6 says God was sorry to have created mankind on the face of the earth, and verse 7 says he’s going to wipe out all mankind, and you Dave say that the rational way to interpret “mankind” in verse 7 is that it refers only to Mesopotamians, then that means in verse 6 God was only sorry to have created Mesopotamians, that he only views them as wicked, and he’s totally cool with the Chinese, Egyptians, Indians, Mesoamericans, and so on. Because it makes no sense to switch the meaning of mankind so radically in the middle of a single set of verses. Similarly, translating ‘all the mountains’ to mean regional low-lying hills might get you out of geological record trouble, but it renders the ‘wipe out mankind’ part of the story dubious and the ‘wipe out birds’ part of the story completely insensible.

So yes, there are word interpretations you can use that support your position. But when you put those word interpretations in the story consistently, that story no longer makes any sense. At least, not to me. God’s going to wipe out birds with a 100′ flood? Really? God thought the Mesopotamians were especially wicked, when the Olmecs were almost certainly practicing human sacrifice of children. Really? Or maybe it’s the case that God saw the wickedness of the Olmecs, and determined to wipe out the Mesopotamians in order to start mankind anew. Really?

As for your #1, the text I cited stated: “in Noah’s time and place, people (including the Genesis writer) had no concept of Earth as a planet and thus had no word for it. Their “world” mainly (but not entirely) encompassed the land of Mesopotamia.” So you are already fighting straw men.

I’m not wrong about what people at that time and place thought the “earth” was, and I provided exhaustive data showing that this was how the Bible viewed the matter. So you say “God’s words will be based on what God knows, not what the human scribes know.” Actually, it’s both. God knows everything, but in communicating His message to human beings limited in education and understanding, He has to condescend and express it ways that are comprehensible to us, and that brings us to the anthropomorphism and anthropopathism that atheists almost to a person can’t comprehend as part of the worldview of the biblical writers.

As for #2, you write, “When the story talks about God seeking the wickedness of mankind on the earth, you want to interpret that as being all mankind on all the earth.” I addressed this in my paper, Noah’s Flood: Not Anthropologically Universal + Miscellany.

I’ve already addressed at length what “earth” meant in these early chapters of Genesis, from my cited article above (by Dr. Hill). Genesis 6:11-12, 17 refers to “all flesh” three times, so that God chose to judge them, due to “wickedness” and “evil” (6:5) and being “corrupt” (6:11-12).

So it comes down to the meaning and scope of “all”. Is it meant absolutely literally, or figuratively, as an example of very common Hebrew hyperbole in the Bible? I say the latter. It’s easy to show that “all” in Scripture often means less than literally “every one.” It’s used in a hyperbolic way. As an example of that, we could examine how Scripture views the issue of the righteousness of men in a non-literal way. The following is from a lengthy article of mine:

*****

[L]et us briefly look at how the word “all” was regarded by the ancient Hebrews. In a related paper on the exegesis of Romans 3:23, I wrote:

. . . the word “all” (pas in Greek) can indeed have different meanings (as it does in English), . . . It matters not if it means literally “every single one” in some places, if it can mean something less than “absolutely every” elsewhere in Scripture. . . .We find examples of a non-literal intent elsewhere in Romans. . . . Paul writes that “all Israel will be saved,” (11:26), but we know that many will not be saved. And in 15:14, Paul describes members of the Roman church as “….filled with all knowledge….” (cf. 1 Cor 1:5 in KJV), which clearly cannot be taken literally. Examples could be multiplied indefinitely, and are as accessible as the nearest Strong’s Concordance.. . .

Kittel’s Theological Dictionary of the New Testament (Abridged Ed.) states: “Pas can have different meanings according to its different uses . . . in many verses, pas is used in the NT simply to denote a great number, e.g., “all Jerusalem” in Mt 2:3 and “all the sick” in 4:24. “(pp. 796-7)

See also Mt 3:5; 21:10; 27:25; Mk 2:13; 9:15, etc., etc., esp. in KJV. Likewise, Thayer’s Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament gives “of every kind” as a possible meaning in some contexts (p. 491, word #3956). And Vine’s Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words tells us it can mean “every kind or variety.” (v.1, p. 46, under “All”).

. . . One might also note 1 Corinthians 15:22: “As in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive” {NIV}. As far as physical death is concerned (the context of 1 Cor 15), not “all” people have died (e.g., Enoch: Gen 5:24; cf. Heb 11:5; Elijah: 2 Kings 2:11). Likewise, “all” will not be made spiritually alive by Christ, as some will choose to suffer eternal spiritual death in hell.

So much for an overly-literal (or rationalistic) interpretation of “all” as necessarily meaning “without exception.”

St. Paul appears to be citing Psalm 14:1-3:

1: The fool says in his heart, “There is no God.” They are corrupt, they do abominable deeds, there is none that does good.
2: The LORD looks down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there are any that act wisely, that seek after God.
3: They have all gone astray, they are all alike corrupt; there is none that does good, no, not one.

Now, does the context in the earlier passage suggest that what is meant is “absolutely every person, without exception”? No. We’ve already seen the latitude of the notion “all” in the Hebrew understanding. Context supports a less literal interpretation.

In the immediately preceding Psalm 13, David proclaims “I have trusted in thy steadfast love” (13:5), which certainly is “seeking” after God. Indeed, the very next Psalm [14] is entirely devoted to “good people”:

1: O LORD, who shall sojourn in thy tent? Who shall dwell on thy holy hill?
2: He who walks blamelessly, and does what is right, and speaks truth from his heart;
3: who does not slander with his tongue, and does no evil to his friend, nor takes up a reproach against his neighbor;
4: in whose eyes a reprobate is despised, but who honors those who fear the LORD; who swears to his own hurt and does not change;
5: who does not put out his money at interest, and does not take a bribe against the innocent. He who does these things shall never be moved. (complete)

Even two verses after our cited passage in Psalms David writes that “God is with the generation of the righteous” (14:5). In the very next verse (14:4) David refers to “the evildoers who eat up my people”. Now, if he is contrasting the evildoers with His people, then obviously, he is not meaning to imply that everyone is evil, and there are no righteous. So obviously his lament in 14:2-3 is an indignant hyperbole and not intended as a literal utterance. Such remarks are common to Jewish poetic idiom. The anonymous psalmist in 112:5 refers to a good man (Heb. tob), as does the book of Proverbs repeatedly (11:23; 12:2; 13:22; 14:14,19), using the same word, tob, which appears in Ps 14:2-3.

And references to righteous men are innumerable (e.g., Job 17:9; 22:19; Ps 5:12; 32:11; 34:15; 37:16, 32; Mt 9:13; 13:17; 25:37, 46; Rom 5:19; Heb 11:4; Jas 5:16; 1 Pet 3:12; 4:18, etc., etc.).

We see Jewish idiom and hyperbole in other similar passages. For example, Jesus says: “No one is good but God alone”(Lk 18:19; cf. Mt 19:17). Yet He also said: “The good person brings good things out of a good treasure….” (Mt 12:35; cf. 5:45; 7:17-20; 22:10).

Furthermore, in each instance in Matthew and Luke above of the English “good” the Greek word used is agatho.

Is this a contradiction? Of course not. Jesus is merely drawing a contrast between our righteousness and God’s, but He doesn’t deny that we can be “good” in a lesser sense.

Psalm 53:1-3 is very similar (perhaps the very same writing originally, or close parallel):

1: The fool says in his heart, “There is no God.” They are corrupt, doing abominable iniquity; there is none that does good.
2: God looks down from heaven upon the sons of men to see if there are any that are wise, that seek after God.
3: They have all fallen away; they are all alike depraved; there is none that does good, no, not one.

All the same elements are present: it starts with a reference to atheists or agnostics, then moves on to ostensibly “universal” language, which is seen to admit of exceptions once context is considered. Like Psalm 14, there is the following contrast in the next verse:

Psalm 53:4 Have those who work evil no understanding, who eat up my people as they eat bread, and do not call upon God?

And Like Psalm 14, we see other proximate Psalms refer to the “righteous” or “godly” (e.g., 52:1, 6, 9; 55:22; 58:10-11). David himself eagerly seeks God in Psalms 51, 52:8-9; 54-57; 61-63, etc. Obviously, then, it is not the case that “no one” whatsoever seeks God. It is Hebrew hyperbole and exaggeration to make a point. And this is, remember, poetic language in the first place. Therefore, it is fairly clear that there — far from “none” — plenty of righteous people to go around.

***

So (back to our immediate dispute), can “all” not mean literally all (i.e., every single one)? Absolutely. I have shown how this is often the case in the Bible, and it is in the case of the Flood, which is described in non-literal terms “all flesh” and was in fact a local Mesopotamian phenomenon.

It’s completely consistent interpretation: a real event, expressed in some metaphorical, non-literal terms. You can come up with your present critique only because you have utterly ignored key and crucial parts of my argument in our past interactions.

But you have interacted more than almost anyone else here, so I don’t want to be too hard on you. You simply need to be more educated with regard to biblical literary forms and biblical exegesis.

And what kind of Christian were you in your past life? Were you up on all these sorts of things? Or did you interpret almost everything in the Bible hyper-literally, as you basically do now, most of the time?

***

Related Reading

Old Earth, Flood Geology, Local Flood, & Uniformitarianism (vs. Kevin Rice) [5-25-04; rev. 5-10-17]

Adam & Eve, Cain, Abel, & Noah: Historical Figures [2-20-08]

Noah’s Flood & Catholicism: Basic Facts [8-18-15]

Do Carnivores on the Ark Disprove Christianity? [9-10-15]

New Testament Evidence for Noah’s Existence [National Catholic Register, 3-11-18]

Local Flood & Atheist Ignorance of Christian Thought [7-2-21]

Local Mesopotamian Flood: An Apologia [7-9-21]

Tower of Babel, Baked Bricks, Bitumen, & Archaeology (Also, Archaeological Verification of Sufficiently Available Bitumen and Wood for the Building of Noah’s Ark) [8-26-21]

Pearce’s Potshots #47: Mockery of a Local Flood (+ Striking Analogies Between the Biblical Flood and the Great Mississippi Flood of 1927) [9-30-21]

Pearce’s Potshots #48: Flood of Irrationality & Cowardice [10-1-21]

Noah’s Flood: Not Anthropologically Universal + Miscellany [10-5-21]

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Photo credit: Smimbipi (9-2-19) [Pixabay / Pixabay License]

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Summary: An atheist insists that the biblical description precludes a Local Flood. I explain how the Flood was historical, but that said language was non-literal and hyperbolic.

2021-09-30T18:49:04-04:00

“From Noah to Joshua”: the Hebrew Scripture is Extraordinarily Accurate & True to History

For preliminary background information on the dispute about biblical maximalism vs. minimalism, and the dates of the patriarchs and major OT events, see my article on those topics. This paper is basically a chronological “bullet-point” survey of some of the fascinating things I have found in studying archaeology (and in several cases, science in general) in relation to the Old Testament over the last six months or so (originally stimulated by atheist skepticism).

Nothing is very in-depth; however, I will systematically provide links to the papers that do deal in greater depth with any given topic. Readers, therefore, may peruse the overall topic as much as they like by following the links to more substantial treatments, extensive documentation from scientific studies, etc.

*****

Three Great Books About Biblical Archaeology (Maximalist Outlook)

Kenneth A. Kitchen (b. 1932), On the Reliability of the Old Testament (Grand Rapids and Cambridge: William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company, 2003)

James K. Hoffmeier (b. 1951), Israel in Egypt: The Evidence for the Authenticity of the Exodus Tradition (Oxford University Press, 1996)

James K. Hoffmeier, Ancient Israel in Sinai: The Evidence for the Authenticity of the Wilderness Tradition (Oxford University Press, 2005)

***

1) Noah’s Ark & the Flood

a. I have compiled an extensive scientific argument for a local Flood in the Mesopotamian plains, near the Tigris and Euphrates rivers (present-day Iraq). The Bible doesn’t require a universal Flood. This was noted as early as the old Catholic Encyclopedia from 1910.

b. At Shuruppak and Uruk in this area, can be found clay deposited by a flood: nearly two feet and five feet thick, respectively: dated at approximately 2900 BC. The Sumerian King List [22nd-21st c. BC] informs us that Noah (Ziusudra) lived in Shuruppak [Tell Fara]”: excavated back to 3,000 BC.

c. The traditional landing-site of the ark (up till the 11th century) was not the current Mt. Ararat, but rather, Jabel Judi (just north of the flat floodplain), which is 6,854 feet in elevation. The biblical text doesn’t require the ark resting on top of a mountain. It says “came to rest upon the mountains of Ar’arat” (Gen 8:4), in other words, a region. The Mt. Ararat in present-day Turkey near Armenia wasn’t even known by that name until the Middle Ages.

d. Noah’s Ark, built (as we deduce from many historical clues) in the Mesopotamian plain, was covered “inside and out with pitch” [same thing as bitumen / tar / asphalt] (Gen 6:14). We know that this was readily available in the area at this time: used as waterproofing for reed boats on the Euphrates by the early 4th millennium BC (early 3000s).

e. Wood for the ark wasn’t available locally, but we know that wood was available for trade and purchase by 2900 BC in Syria, Elam (now Iran), and Anatolia (Turkey): floated down the Euphrates River. It was likely either cedar or cypress.

f. One skeptical argument against Noah’s Ark is the taunt that the carnivores would have insufficient food. This is answered in many ways. There is salt-cured meat and dried and salted cod. The Wikipedia article “Food Drying” notes that “Dehydration has been used widely for this purpose since ancient times”: many thousands of years before Noah’s Ark.

g. There is a significant analogy between my proposed local Mesopotamian flood and the Great Mississippi Flood of 1927. The latter had: 1) sustained heavy rain for six times as long as the biblical flood (240 days to 40), 2) flood waters remaining for a year, compared to 10 1/2 months in Genesis, and 3) coverage over an area larger than my proposed local Mesopotamian flood (likely twice as large or more). Moreover, 1) both are (in the costal areas) very flat, 2) lie near a large body of water (Gulf of Mexico / Persian Gulf), 3) have a large river or rivers running through them (Tigris & Euphrates / Mississippi), 4) probably have similar climates as well (without verifying it, but they are located virtually at the same latitude), 5) both have “rings” of mountains or much higher elevations around the flat basin and flood plain on three sides: in the US South there are mountains in Arkansas, Tennessee, and northern Alabama and Georgia.

2) The Tower of Babel

a. Genesis 11:2-3 (RSV, as throughout) And as men migrated from the east, they found a plain in the land of Shinar and settled there. [3] And they said to one another, “Come, let us make bricks, and burn them thoroughly.” And they had brick for stone, and bitumen for mortar.

b. Four historical clues: i) Shinar: early word for Babylon, ii)”Plain”: Mesopotamian floodplain, iii) burned bricks = kiln-fired bricks, iv) bitumen for mortar.

c. Ziggurats: about 25 in ancient Sumer, Babylonia, and Assyria: the earliest dated to 3500 BC at the latest.

d. In the ancient Near East, and also anywhere else in the world, baked bricks were “rarely used in architecture until c. 3100 B.C.”

e. As for bitumen, the Anu Ziggurat in Uruk (modern Warka) — built in c. 3517-3358 BC. — was coated on its top with bitumen and overlaid with brick.

For much more information, see: Tower of Babel, Baked Bricks, Bitumen, & Archaeology (Also, Archaeological Verification of Sufficiently Available Bitumen and Wood for the Building of Noah’s Ark)

3) Abraham and “Anachronistic” Camels

[Kitchen thinks Abraham was “born . . . earlier in the nineteenth century at the latest”: i.e., 1800s BC]

Mention of Abraham and camels is made in Genesis 24. Apparently, he received them from the Pharaoh of Egypt (Gen 12:16). This has been claimed as historical anachronism, but excavations have shown that the presence of camels in Egypt dates back at least to the First Dynasty (3100 B.C.) with domestication preceding the age of the patriarchs. Orthodox rabbi Joshua Berman stated: “read Genesis carefully and you see that all its camels come from outside of Israel, . . . nowhere in Genesis does anyone ride a camel originating in Canaan.” Genesis 42:26-27 shows us that Joseph’s brothers went to Egypt on donkeys (cf. 43:24; 44;3, 13; 45:23). Further reading: Abraham, Moses, Camels, & Archaeological Evidence and OT Camels & Biblically Illiterate Archaeologists.

The consensus atheist skeptics and archaeologists is that domestication of camels in Israel occurred in the 9th century BC. The Bible (rightly understood) agrees. 1 Chronicles 5:21 notes that camels were owned by the Hagrites (5:19), who lived east of Gilead in present-day Jordan. Note that the Israelites “carried off fifty thousand of their camels” (5:21): certainly enough to start widespread domestication in Israel. This was “in the days of Jerobo’am king of Israel” (5:17).  Jeroboam was the first king of the northern kingdom of Israel (as opposed to Judah). He reigned for 22 years, sometime in the last third of the 10th century BC. In other words, this was right before the first archaeological evidence of widespread camel use in Israel, in the 9th century BC. Further reading: When Were Camels Domesticated in Egypt & Israel?

4) Abraham’s Journeys

His presence at Beersheba is said to be an anachronism, as the city didn’t exist in his lifetime. But the Bible refers to it as “the wilderness of Beer-sheba” (Gen 21:14) in Abraham’s time. It’s never called a “city” in eleven times in Genesis, save for 26:33, which is clearly a later added editorial note (“the name of the city is Beer-sheba to this day”). See: Abraham & Beersheba, the Bible, & Archaeology. He lived in Haran (Gen 11:31; 12:4-5). It’s known from  cuneiform sources, in both Eblaite and Akkadian, to date back to 3000 BC. See: Abraham Lived in Haran, Which Did Exist at the Time! Abraham was in Shechem (Gen 12:5-6; 33:18). Archaeology shows that it was re-settled c. 1900 BC, just before Abraham was born. See: Abraham’s Shechem Lines Up With Archaeology. Abraham dwelt at Hebron (Gen 13:18; 23:2, 19; 35:27). Archaeology tells us that it was established c. 2700-2200 BC, destroyed by fire but rebuilt c. 1800 BC: all long before Abraham’s birth. See: Abraham & Hebron: Archaeology Backs Up the Bible. Abraham met Melchizedek in Salem (Gen 14:17-18): believed by most Bible scholars to be Jerusalem, and was willing to sacrifice Isaac on Mt. Moriah: where the temple was later built (Gen 22:2). Is that too early? No problem. Archaeology holds that the city was first established no later then 3500 BC, if not much earlier and rebuilt, c. 1800 BC. See: Abraham, Salem, Mt. Moriah, Jerusalem, & Archaeology.

5) Sodom and Gomorrah

Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed in Abraham’s time (Gen 19:24-29). Recent excavations highly suggest that it was located north and east of the Dead Sea, rather than further south (Tall el-Hammam in Jordan). The most interesting thing about the excavations is evidence of a possible meteor explosion in the area, dated to 1750-1650 BC. A pottery sherd found on the site melted under extreme temperatures, and has a glass surface as a result. See: Sodom & Gomorrah & Archaeology: North of the Dead Sea?  and Was Sodom Destroyed by a Meteor in Abraham’s Time?

6) Joseph: Sold Into Slavery

[Kitchen estimates that the patriarch Joseph was born c. 1737-1717 BC]

Genesis 37:25, 28 . . . looking up they saw a caravan of Ish’maelites coming from Gilead, with their camels bearing gum, balm, and myrrh, on their way to carry it down to Egypt. . . . [28] Then Mid’ianite traders passed by; and they drew Joseph up and lifted him out of the pit, and sold him to the Ish’maelites for twenty shekels of silver; and they took Joseph to Egypt.

Atheists try to deny that this trade route existed at this time (1720-1710 BC). The beginnings of this incense trade and the Incense Road have been dated to 1800 BC (prior to Joseph’s birth). Egypt (not far away) had been importing myrrh from further south in Africa for the previous thousand years. Genesis 37:17 informs us that the incident where Joseph was traded into slavery occurred at Dothan (now the archaeological site Tel Dothan, which is roughly in the middle on a line between the sea of Galilee and Tel Aviv.  Dothan was located on a different trade route, later called the Via Maris. The Wikipedia article on it states that it dated “from the early Bronze Age“: which age in Mesopotamia lasted from c. 3300–1200 BC. See: Genesis, Joseph, Archaeology, & Biblical Accuracy.

The price of slaves in the ancient Near East from 2000-1400 BC (we know from various texts) was 20 shekels: exactly what the Bible states Joseph was sold for in the early 18th century.  After that it became 30 shekels. If this story was written in the 6th BC or later, as skeptics claim, the price would have been 90-100 shekels: the going rate at that time. See: Joseph in Egypt, Archaeology, & Historiography.

7) Joseph: Investiture

Genesis 41:41-42 And Pharaoh said to Joseph, “Behold, I have set you over all the land of Egypt.” [42] Then Pharaoh took his signet ring from his hand and put it on Joseph’s hand, and arrayed him in garments of fine linen, and put a gold chain about his neck;

[Donald] Redford . . . [analyzed] over forty scenes spanning from the reign of Thutmose III to the Twenty-first Dynasty (ca. 1479-950 B.C.). These scenes typically show the king sitting on a throne, often under a canopy, while the recipient stands before the monarch wearing a gold necklace and adorned in white linen. . . . An important diagnostic feature of investiture scenes is the presence of some sort of insignia of the new office (standard, staff, or seal). . . . (Hoffmeier, Israel in Egypt, 91)

Huy, Viceroy of Cush under Tutankhamun . . . [is shown] receiving a rolled-up linen object along with a gold signet ring. (Hoffmeier, ibid., 92)

Of the Egyptian nature of the trappings for royal appointments to high office — linen robe, gold collar, state seal, etc. – there can be no doubt whatever. (Kitchen, 478). See: Joseph in Egypt, Archaeology, & Historiography.

8) Pitch for Baby Moses’ Basket?

[Moses’ birth and death dates, deduced by Kenneth Kitchen, are c. 1340-c. 1210 BC]

[see Ex 2:2-3]

I discovered an atheist making a claim that got me started on this lengthy excursion into biblical archaeology (thanks much!). He said, “pitch was not available in Egypt at the time of Moses, but was in Sumeria.” Even he conceded that it was available somewhere at the time. Bitumen and pitch are essentially synonymous terms (tar and asphalt also similarly used). Lo and behold, it turns out that bitumen was available in Egypt by trade at this time. A 1992 scientific article concluded:

This study is the first evidence of the trade and export of raw bitumens from the Dead Sea area within Canaan and to Egyptian trading centers on the mainland route to Egypt between 3900 and 2200 BC . . .

This study demonstrates that detailed organic geochemical analysis permits the identification in Maadi excavations (3900-3500 BC) in Egypt of asphalt imported from the Dead Sea and enables the reconstruction of the bitumen trade routes within Canaan and to Egypt.

See: No Pitch / Bitumen in Moses’ Egypt? and Atheist Throws a Screwball Pitch (Part II of “Pitch / Bitumen in Moses’ Egypt”).

The same article also noted that bitumen is found in Egypt itself:

[A]sphalt is found in only a few localities in Egypt (in oil springs at Jebel Zeit, termed Mons Petrolius by the Romans, or in sandstones at Helwan, south of Cairo; . . .

Our atheist friend had also wrongly concluded: “Contrary to Moses [sic] account, bitumen does not exist in the Nile river or the Nile delta.” Wrong! Helwan “is part of Greater Cairo, on the bank of the Nile”, and its delta begins just 12 miles north of Cairo (20 kilometers).

9) Hebrew Slaves in Pi-Ramesses

[see Gen 47:11; Ex 1:11; 12:37; Num 33:3, 5]

Pharaoh Ramesses II (1279–1213 BC) built a new capital Pi-Ramesses at Qantir, near the old site of Avaris on the then-easternmost branch of the Nile. Archaeology has determined that it had a population of over 300,000, and was 3.7 miles long by 1.9 miles wide. This Pelusiac branch of the Nile began silting up c. 1060 BC, leaving the city without water, at which time the capital was moved to Tanis, 12 miles away. Thus, the name used in the Bible fits the time period (roughly 210 years) perfectly. See: City of the Exodus (Pi-Ramesses), Bible, & Archaeology.

10) Hebrews Build Pithom

Exodus 1:11 . . . they built for Pharaoh store-cities, Pithom and Ra-am’ses.

Archaeological consensus appears to be that Tell el-Retaba is the site of ancient Pithom. Wikipedia elaborates: “Here was found a group of granite statues representing Ramesses II, two inscriptions naming Pr-Itm (Temple of Atum), . . .”

Polish-Slovakian excavators in 2017 concluded: “In the 13th century BC, during the reign of Ramesses II, a fortress surrounded by ‘Wall 1’ was established.” As for the biblical reference to “store-cities” the researchers described various structures on the site that would be consistent with that notion, such as “stables for animals”, “granaries”, “burial chambers”, and “small silos.”

Thus, we see that the Bible is dead-on accurate as to: 1) the name, 2) its function as a store-city, and 3) its being built (or technically, rebuilt / fortified) at the same time as the reign of Ram’eses. See: Moses’ “Store-City” Pithom & Archaeology.

11) Hebrew Slaves, Mud Bricks, and Straw

Exodus 5:6-8, 18-19  The same day Pharaoh commanded the taskmasters of the people and their foremen, [7] “You shall no longer give the people straw to make bricks, as heretofore; let them go and gather straw for themselves. [8] But the number of bricks which they made heretofore you shall lay upon them, you shall by no means lessen it; . . . [18] Go now, and work; for no straw shall be given you, yet you shall deliver the same number of bricks.” [19] The foremen of the people of Israel saw that they were in evil plight, when they said, “You shall by no means lessen your daily number of bricks.”

Straw (we know from archaeology) was added to the standard mud bricks in ancient Egypt because it reduced shrinkage and prevented cracking. About a half pound of straw was needed per cubic foot of mud. A leather scroll from Ramesses II’s reign and a papyrus Merneptah’s reign [1213-1203 BC] refer to brick making. According to the scroll, the daily quota was 2,000 mud bricks. See: Egyptian Mud Bricks and Straw: Bible = Archaeology.

12) How Many Hebrews Left Egypt in the Exodus?

[Egyptologist Kenneth Kitchen’s estimated date of the Exodus is c. 1260-1250 BC]

Several sources indicate that Pi-Ramesses had 300,000 people. One scholar (John Madden) estimated that slaves in Egypt were never more than 10% of the population. Madden cited other scholars who thought the number was closer to 13.5% (40,500), while physicist Colin Humphreys concluded (by analysis of odd use of numbers in the early books of the Bible, and the concurrence of three other credentialed Bible scholars) that the number leaving in the Exodus was 20,000 (6.7%). Averaging the three estimates, we get 30,167, or almost exactly one-tenth of the population of Pi-Ramesses (back to Madden’s guesstimate). See: Archaeology: How Many Hebrew Slaves in Pi-Ramesses? (And Could 20,000 Nomadic Hebrews Survive in the Sinai Desert for Forty Years?)

The Bible refers to about 600,000 men leaving in the Exodus, which is really approximately two million people total. This has long been a loud skeptical objection to the Exodus story. As we have seen, this would be almost seven times the estimated population of the city they departed from. But if those numbers aren’t literal, the overall equation changes quite a bit, and the data fits nicely. See:  How Many Israelites in the Exodus?  On the question of biblical numerology, see also: 969-Year-Old Methuselah (?) & Genesis Numbers

13) How Could 20,000 Nomads Survive in the Sinai Peninsula?

They could. How do we know that? It’s because we have an analogous group of people today: the portion of Bedouins who are still nomadic:  about 115,000 in the Negev Desert: the southern portion of Israel that is similar in topography and arid climate to the neighboring Sinai Peninsula. The Negev is 4700 square miles in area, whereas the Sinai Peninsula is 23,166 square miles, or 4.93 times larger. The ancient wandering Hebrews had 29 times more area to live in than the current-day Bedouins, in similar conditions and an estimated six times fewer people. This is a non-issue. See: Archaeology: How Many Hebrew Slaves in Pi-Ramesses? (And Could 20,000 Nomadic Hebrews Survive in the Sinai Desert for Forty Years?).

14) Quails in Sinai: Possible and Plausible Natural Explanation

[see Ex 16:11-13; Num 11:4-5, 13, 18-20, 31-34; Ps 78:26-31]

Kenneth Kitchen noted observable migration patterns of quail:

Twice on their travels (down to, and up from, Mount Sinai), the Israelites got involved with migrating quail. The first time, in the Desert of Sin (west coast; Exod. 16:13) [should be 16:1], quail alighted one spring evening [“on the fifteenth day of the second month”: also 16:1]; the second time, again in the spring (Num. 11:31-34; date, cf. second month, 10:11) [“second month, on the twentieth day”], a flight of quail was blown the few miles inland (up the seaward end of Wadi Sa’l?) and fell to the Israelites. It is a fact that quails do migrate via Sinai twice a year. They fly from farther south up to Europe in the spring, going through the Suez and Aqaba gulfs in the evenings (hence their presence on the Sinai Peninsula’s west and east flanks then). (p. 273)

Thus, the Bible informs us that (again, positing a natural event):

1) quails migrate through the Sinai Peninsula,

2) particularly along the coastlines, and

3) they do so in the spring.

Season (down to the day) and specific places are both recorded. A map of quail distribution from the Birdlife International website, shows that one area is the west coast of the Sinai Peninsula (between the words “Egypt” and “Israel” on the map): precisely where the biblical accounts locate them. It involves scores of millions of birds every year. The second Hebrew month is Iyar, which usually falls into April-May of the Gregorian calendar.

Another article from Birdlife International (3-21-19) states that “Having journeyed across the sea they fly low, heading for a place to rest . . ” This may coincide with the description of Numbers 11:31: “a wind from the LORD,. . . brought quails from the sea, and let them fall beside the camp, . . . about two cubits above the face of the earth.” A biblical cubit is about 19-23 inches.

Thus, this passage could be saying that they were flying 38-46 inches above the ground (3’2″ to 3’10”), alongside the sea, as the article, says, looking for a place to pitch. If so, it’s yet another of innumerable examples of minute (in this case, botanical or ornithological) biblical accuracy, from about 3,300 years ago.

Scholars speculate as to what caused the “very great plague” resulting from eating quail, up to and including death (Num 11:33-34). Numbers 11:32 describes what seems to be a drying-out of the quail: “they spread them out for themselves all around the camp.” Before long, bacteria would develop; likely a variety of Salmonella, leading to severe sickness and even death. See: Quails, Wandering Hebrews, & Biblical Accuracy.

15) Location of Mt. Sinai

Jebel Musa (or Jabal Musa or Gebel Musa: “Mount Moses”) in the Sinai Peninsula is the leading candidate for the biblical Mt. Sinai. Jebel Musa and Ras es-Safsafeh sit at opposite ends of a three-mile long granite ridge. Ras es-Safsafeh (or Gebel Safsafeh or Willow Peak) also has much in its favor. Holman Bible Dictionary (“Mount Sinai”) states:

Ras es-Safsafeh (6,540 ft.) [lies] on the north, northeast of Jebel Musa. Many explorers think Ras es-Safsafeh is the biblical Sinai because it has a plain, er Rahah , on its northwest base, which is two miles long and about two thirds of a mile wide. This plain was certainly large enough to accommodate the camp of the Israelites.

The er-Rahah plain is adjacent to Ras es Safsafeh, not Gebel Musa. The Bible states that “Israel camped there in front of the mountain” (Ex 19:2, NRSV; cf. NIV, NASB, Moffatt, REB, Confraternity, NAB, Goodspeed: “in front of”; Amplified: “at the base of”; Knox: “in full view of”; NEB: “opposite the mountain”).

Secondly, the top of Ras es-Safsafeh, unlike that of Jebel Musa, can be seen from the plain, which the Bible requires:

Exodus 19:11 . . . on the third day the LORD will come down upon Mount Sinai in the sight of all the people.

Exodus 24:17 Now the appearance of the glory of the LORD was like a devouring fire on the top of the mountain in the sight of the people of Israel.

Thirdly, Jebel Musa has an indistinct border at its base, making it difficult to determine where it begins, so as to not be killed for touching it: as a matter of ritual impurity (Ex 19:12). Ras es-Safsafeh, on the other hand, rise abruptly and dramatically from the plain, much like El Capitan in Yosemite National Park. See: In Search of the Real Mt. Sinai (Fascinating Topographical and Biblical Factors Closely Examined)

16) Moses Wouldn’t be Able to Write / Written Hebrew Didn’t Exist in the 13th century BC (?)

Egyptologist Kenneth Kitchen, armed with a mountain of relevant research, begs to differ with the usual skeptical / minimalist viewpoint:

[F]rom the fourteenth/thirteenth century onward, the [Canaanite] alphabet could be freely used for any form of communication. The contemporary north Semitic texts found at Ugarit in north Phoenicia illustrate this to perfection . . . the Amarna evidence [c. 1360-1332 BC] and handful of pottery finds prove clearly that Canaanite was the dominant local tongue and could be readily expressed in alphabetic writing . . . Thus we should consider a Moses or a Joshua writing on papyrus, skins, or even waxed tablets in alphabetic late Canaanite. (Kitchen, 304-305)

[T]he recently invented West Semitic alphabet [was] a vehicle deigned by and for Semitic speakers (and writers). The oldest known examples have been the Lachish dagger epigraph from a seventeenth century tomb and the Tell Nagila sherd (Middle/Late Bronze, ca. 1600); we now have also the Wadi Hol graffiti in Egypt from northwest of Thebes, about the seventeenth century. These oldest examples occur in homely, informal contexts, showing that it could be, and was, readily utilized by anyone who cared to do so, and not solely by government elites. To these must be added the proto-Sinaitic inscriptions of disputed date — circa 1800 or circa 1500. This system of not more than thirty simple, semipictographic letters would have been very easy to use in writing up (on papyrus) a “first written edition” of the patriarchal traditions from Abraham to Jacob, to which a Joseph account could be added. This set of basic narratives could then be recopied from circa 1600 to the thirteenth century, then given a “late Canaanite” editing in that phase of the script, eventuating into early standard Hebrew language and script from the united monarchy [c. 1000 BC] onward. . . . This straightforward view is at least consistent with all the factual data that we currently possess, and keeps theorizing to a minimum. (Kitchen, 370-371)

See: Archaeology, Ancient Hebrew, & a Written Pentateuch

17) Near Eastern Treaty-Type Covenants and the Sinai Covenant

Kenneth Kitchen wrote in his his article, “Archaeology and the Hebrew Exodus”:

At the heart of Exodus + Leviticus (and almost all of Deuteronomy) we have two exposés of a treaty-type covenant between Israel and its heavenly King, echoed also in Joshua 24.  . . . From the ancient biblical world, between c. 2800 BC and Julius Caesar (46 BC), we have from the Near East over 100 examples of such documents. Importantly, the format varies from age to age – and that of Ex-Lev., Deut. & Jos 24 is consistent in all 3 cases exclusively with the forms current within c. 1350 to c. 1180 BC, and with no other period, earlier or later.  In short, those three are contemporary with the dates of Moses and Joshua as now known, and neither earlier nor later. . . .
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“Learned in all the wisdom of the Egyptians”, was Moses, as Acts 7:22 so well puts it.  As a foreigner at court, he surely was put to serve in the Egyptian “foreign office” (yes, the ancient Egyptians actually had one, that early in history…!) There, he would be involved with treaties, laws, etc.  And it is shown off to perfection in Ex-Lev. and Deut.
Dr. Kitchen is in a position to know about such things. He co-wrote (with PJN Lawrence) three volumes called Treaty, Law and Covenantpublished in 2012, 1700 pages total. See: City of the Exodus (Pi-Ramesses), Bible, & Archaeology. Moreover, in his book cited at the top, he observed:

Exod. 2:10 notes the full adoption of the boy [Moses] by his princess patron; that implies his becoming a member of the ruling body of courtiers, officials, and attendants that served the pharaoh as his government leaders under the viziers, treasury chiefs, etc. . . .

Both Sethos I [r. c. 1290-1294-1279 BC] and Ramesses II signed treaties with the Hittite kings; the surviving one of Ramesses I shows the format so familiar in the whole “Hittite” corpus. What is more, the documents in this case were not just sent to Egypt by the Hittites for Egypt’s approval. The scribes at both courts produced drafts to be exchanged for mutual approval or amendment before the final document was settled. So anyone in Egypt’s “foreign office” would be able to learn of such documents in this epoch. . . . This . . . does explain how a Hebrew leader might later come to use this convenient and appropriate framework for the Sinai covenant. (Kitchen, 297-298)

See: Archaeology, Ancient Hebrew, & a Written Pentateuch (+ a Plausible Scenario for Moses Gaining Knowledge of Hittite Legal Treaties in His Egyptian Official Duties).

18) Tabernacle and Egyptian & Babylonian Precursors

Kitchen contends that every aspect of the Hebrew tabernacle (a portable tent for worship that was a prototype of the temple) has similarities to prior such structures in surrounding cultures: especially Egypt. All of these parallels suggest (by analogy and correspondence to the biblical text) a 13th century origin, and not a later one:

[I]n the 1920s, . . . a brilliant discovery by Reisner at the Giza pyramids in Egypt opened up the final tomb of Queen Hetepheres, mother of Khufu, the builder of the Great Pyramid, circa 2600. He found the disassembled parts of a “secular tabernacle” . . . It consisted of a wooden framework, gold covered, that fitted together with tenon and socket joints. The top horizontal beams were supported by vertical poles set in base beams. The corners were held by special fitments, a feature also of the biblical tabernacle (Exod. 26:23). The whole framework was once draped with curtains that had not survived. . . . (p. 276).

Recent publications of texts from the famous kingdom of Mari on the Middle Euphrates of circa eighteenth (or seventeenth) century now yield mention of tents or “tabernacles” borne on wooden frames . . . and units of (seemingly) fencing, latticework, perhaps to form an enclosure as with the biblical tabernacle (Exod. 27:9-10). . . .

Thus large tents over wooden frames set in socketed bases were used for both ritual and royal purposes at Mari, still half a millennium before any Moses. (p. 277)

He provides further similar examples from the tomb of Tutankhamun (ca. 1336 1327 BC): “concentric tabernacle-like shrines . . . gold-plated, dismountable, and fitted together with tenons  in sockets like the Hebrew tabernacle . . . a wooden framework carrying a pall of faded linen decorated with gilded bronze rosettes, for all the world like a skeletal tabernacle” (p. 278).

Pharaoh Ramesses, around 1275 BC — very near the time of the Exodus, had a “rectangular tent . . . divided into two parts, with an outer room twice the length of the inner room of the king himself. In some representations the inner room has figures of divine falcons facing each other and shadowing the royal name with their wings, much as the cherubim did for the cover of the ark in the tabernacle” (p. 278)

On furnishings we may cite the ark of the covenant (Exod. 25:10-22; 37:1-9) and the special silver trumpets of Num. 10:1-10. The former was essentially a gilded box on four feet, with four rings (two each side) to take two carrying-poles. The arrangement is identical to that of a famous box from Tutankhamun’s tomb, with just such rings and poles. . . . Thus the ark is a typical Late Bronze Age item. (p. 280)

See: The Tabernacle: Egyptian & Near Eastern Precursors (Archaeology Entirely Backs Up the Extraordinary Accuracy of Holy Scripture Yet Again)

19) Ark of the Covenant and Acacia Wood

The Bible gave instructions for acacia wood to be used to construct the ark of the covenant (Ex 25:10, 13; 26:15, 26, 32; 27:1; Deut 10:3). This is one of the evidences for the extended stay in the Sinai desert. Hoffmeier writes:

One of the few types of trees found in dry climates such as the Negev, the Arabah, and Sinai suitable for making wooden furniture and instruments is the acacia . . .

Given the prominence of these trees in Sinai, it is not surprising, then, that acacia is the principal word used in the construction  of the tabernacle . . . the ark of the covenant . . . the altar . . .

The facts that sittim [acacia] is a word of Egyptian origin and that this tree provides the only suitable wood for construction use, lend authenticity [to] this element of the wilderness tradition. (Ancient Israel in Sinai, p. 209)

Jewish tourism page devoted to acacia notes: “In large areas of the desert lands of the Negev and Sinai, acacia trees are the only trees.” Acacia was the wood of choice in Sinai; almost the only choice at all, and so we conclude that the Bible is reflecting an accurate picture of conditions there during the time of Moses (13th century BC). See: Acacia, Ark of the Covenant, & Biblical Accuracy.

20) Water from the Rock

[see: Ex 17:6; Num 20:7-13; Deut 8:15; Neh 9:15; Ps 78:16, 20; 105:21; 114:8; Is 48:21]

We know that sandstone and limestone are porous and can contain water (“hydrologic aquifer properties”), and that both (especially the former) are common in the Sinai Peninsula, particularly in the northern portion. It has been observed that such stone can be struck, and that water can come out. Even in the southern part of Sinai, where granite predominates, the Bedouins have learned to find places in the rock (including right near Mt. Sinai itself) where ancient springs can be tapped for water. See: Moses and (Natural?) Water from a Rock

21) Earth Swallowing Up Rebellious Hebrews?

[see Numbers 16:25-33]

Kitchen observes:

[In the] the Arabah rift valley between the Dead Sea and the Gulf of Aqaba . . .  There exists there kewirs, or mudflats. Over a deep mass of liquid mud and ooze is formed a hard crust of clayey mud overlying layers of hard salt and half-dry muds, about thirty centimeters thick. Under normal conditions one may readily walk over or stay upon the crust without any problem, as if on firm ground; but increased humidity (especially with rainstorms) causes the crust to soften and break up, turning everything into gluey mud. (pp. 191-192)

Another natural possibility is an earthquake. A scientific article from 2000 noted:

The Dead Sea fault zone is a major left-lateral strike-slip fault. South of the Dead Sea basin, the Wadi Araba fault extends over 160 km to the Gulf of Aqaba. The Dead Sea fault zone is known to have produced several relatively large historical earthquakes. . . .

[W]e suggest that the Dead Sea fault along the Araba valley should produce an Mw 7 earthquake about every 200 years on average . . .

Or it was simply a supernatural miracle, directly brought about by God. That scenario is always possible in the biblical view, as are natural events that come about at just the right time, by God’s providence, or a combination of the two.  See: Moses & Earth Swallowing Sinners: a Miracle?

22) Crossing the Jordan

[see Joshua 3:13, 15-17; 4:18, 23]

Kitchen noted:

Some sixteen miles north of a crossing opposite Jericho, Adam is present-day Tell ed-Damieh. It is specifically in this district that the high banks of the Jordan have been liable to periodic collapses, sufficient to block the river for a time. Thus in December A.D. 1267 a high mound by the rover collapsed into it, stopping its flow completely for sixteen hours. In 1906 a similar event occurred, and then during the earthquake in 1927. That time the west bank collapsed, taking the road with it, while just below this a 150-foot section of riverside cliff fell across the river, damming it completely for twenty-one hours. Such an event in antiquity would have readily facilitated the crossing by the early Israelites. (p. 167)

The Israel Tours web page, “Earthquakes in History and Archaeology” observed in agreement: “Historically known quakes have dammed the Jordan River repeatedly, sometimes for several days, in 1160CE, 1267, 1534, 1834, 1906 and 1927.” See: Joshua & the Parting of the Jordan: A Natural Event?

23) Jericho

[see Joshua 6:20-21, 24]

Kitchen wrote about the erosion of the site:

[A] great deal of the former Middle Bronze Age township was entirely removed by erosion . . . of the Late Bronze settlement from the mid-fourteenth century onward, almost nothing survives at all. . . . 200 years of erosion sufficed to remove most of later Middle Bronze Age Jericho . . . (p. 187)

I submit a possible and plausible explanation of this high level of erosion in Jericho. The ancient city is only 21 miles (34 kilometers) from the Dead Sea, which is “the deepest hypersaline lake in the world. With a salinity of 342 g/kg, or 34.2% (in 2011), it is one of the world’s saltiest bodies of water [ranked seventh in the world] – 9.6 times as salty as the ocean . . . This salinity makes for a harsh environment in which plants and animals cannot flourish, hence its name” (Wikipedia).

One might suspect that this much salt in the environment might affect man-made structures as well. In fact, this is true of the famous city of Petra in present-day Jordan, which is 123 miles (198 kilometers) from the Dead Sea. A National Geographic article (“Weathering”) discussed a salt-induced erosion process called haloclasty, and its effect on some buildings in Petra:

Salt also works to weather rock in a process called haloclasty. Saltwater sometimes gets into the cracks and pores of rock. If the saltwater evaporates, salt crystals are left behind. As the crystals grow, they put pressure on the rock, slowly breaking it apart.

Wikipedia (“Haloclasty”) states: “It is normally associated with arid climates where strong heating causes strong evaporation and therefore salt crystallization. It is also common along coasts.” The Dead Sea is the lowest elevation on earth: 1,412 ft (431 meters) below sea level. Jericho is the lowest city in the world, at 846 feet (258 meters) feet below sea level. As stated above, it’s 21 miles from the coast of the Dead Sea and has a very arid climate (hot desert climate).

Jericho sat uninhabited for 400 years, from about 1275-875 BC. Certainly the salt from the nearby Dead Sea had something to do with (if not being a primary cause of) the extraordinary erosion seen at the site. . . . There is a perfectly plausible explanation: the arid, hyper-saline environment, possibly also 400 years of winter rains, and the long period without habitation (i.e., no repair of any crumbling buildings or other structures). See: Joshua’s Conquest & Archaeology (Including a Plausible Theory as to Why Late Bronze Age Jericho (after 1550 BC) has Virtually Completely Eroded)

24) Joshua’s Altar on Mt. Ebal

Moses wrote about a future altar on Mt. Ebal, which is near the present city of Nablus in the West Bank (biblical Shechem). Joshua 8:30-35 describes it. Sure enough, there is a stone structure up there that seems to look very much like an ancient Israelite altar (the design of which is described in the Bible). Pottery sherds on the site were dated to the early part of Iron Age 1 (1220-1000 B.C.): precisely the period in biblical chronology during which the Israelites conquered Canaan. The primary excavator, Dr. Adam Zertal, wrote:

The bones proved to be from young male bulls, sheep, goats and fallow deer. . . . The first chapter of Leviticus describes the animals that may be offered as sacrifices. A burnt offering must be a male without blemish (Leviticus 1:3). It may be a bull (Leviticus 1:5) or a sheep or a goat (Leviticus 1:10). The close match of the bones we found in the fill with this description in Leviticus 1 was a strong hint as to the nature of the structure we were excavating.
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. . . 942 bones were examined, representing 50-100 specimens. These were attributed to four kinds of animals: goats, sheep, cattle, and fallow deer. The latter is a light-spotted animal which inhabited the woodlands of our country in antiquity. Examination of the sex and age of the animals revealed that all those that could be diagnosed were young males, approximately one year old. This correlates remarkably with the laws of sacrifice in the book of Leviticus [1:1-3] . . .
*
With respect to the Mt. Ebal altar, . . . all the scientific evidence fits very well with the Biblical description. The three main factors that correlate precisely are the period, the nature of the site, and the location.
Notice that not a single pig or wild boar bone has been found on the site (and they did inhabit this area). The Jews were forbidden in Mosaic law from eating the meat of pigs. They were permitted to sacrifice and eat all these other animals, including deer (Dt 14:4-5). See: Archaeology & Joshua’s Altar on Mt. Ebal.
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25) Documentation of Canaanite Cities After Israelite Occupation

Archaeological digs of the many Canaanite cities mentioned in the book of Joshua confirm the events that took place, c. 1200, during the Joshua’s “conquest”. These include Hazor, Lachish, Bethel, and many others. As just one aspect of the multi-faceted evidence, one Bible scholar noted:

The force of this argument is further enhanced by certain negative evidence. Some cities which the biblical sources exclude from the conquests have on excavation shown no signs of destruction in the thirteenth century.

These include Gibeon (el-Jib) (Joshua 9), Taanach (Tell Taaannak) (Judg 1:27), Shechem (Tell Balatah) (Josh 24), Jerusalem (el-Quds) (Josh 15:63; 2 Sam 5:6-9), Beth-shean (Tell el-husn) (Judg 1:27-28), and Gezer (Tell Jezer) (Josh 10:33).

Summaries of the archaeological evidence that backs up the biblical accounts are found in the following articles:  No Evidence for Joshua’s Conquest?; Joshua’s Conquest & Archaeology; and Archaeology Verifies 13th c. BC Cities Listed in Joshua.

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I’d like to strongly emphasize that none of this absolutely proves biblical inspiration. We must be accurate in what we think our arguments establish. But what this evidence does strongly enforce is an aspect that would definitely be present in an inspired document and revelation from God: historical and scientific and geographical accuracy. In other words, if the opposite held true: if the Bible was shown to be inaccurate in many or all of the examples above, then that would be strong evidence against biblical inspiration.

But since this is untrue, the data (from a scientific perspective) supports the possibility that the Bible might be inspired revelation, which would obviously account for its extraordinary accuracy. To put it another way: it doesn’t rule it out. What we see is perfectly consistent with what we would expect from an inspired writing.

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Photo credit: Blake Patterson (5-24-15). Steven Spielberg’s artistic impression of the Ark of the Covenant from the film Indiana Jones and the Raiders of the Lost Ark; exhibit at the National Geographic Museum in Washington D.C. [Flickr / CC BY 2.0 license]

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Summary: I provide a broad summary of the most spectacular confirmations of the OT & archaeology, showing that the Bible is relentlessly accurate in archaeological & historical details.

2021-09-09T14:20:24-04:00

Fr. Hugh Somerville Knapman, OSB has taken umbrage at my citing of a few of his words in my recent article, Traditionis Custodes Results: No Fallen Sky (I Called It) (9-6-21). His reply, posted on his site, One Foot in the Cloister, is entitled, “Apologetics or Polemics” (9-7-21). His words will be in blue.

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I always hate to disagree with a priest (whether privately or publicly). I have immense respect for all priests. But (as they are the first to admit), they can be wrong at times, just like the rest of us, and in this case, seeing that many priests have been extremely critical of the Holy Father, it seems to me a case of “goose and gander.” If they can do that, I can do this.

Sadly, in this instance, the criticism sent my way is a variation on a theme that I have encountered off and on through the years:

1) I criticize radical Catholic reactionary thinking: usually with regard to Pope Francis or Vatican II or the New (Pauline) Mass.

2) Rather than deal with my specific criticisms (and/or defenses of what particular thing they are lambasting), a person who disagrees with me attacks me personally.

3) Generally, the ad hominem attacks involved at that point are calling me a “papolater” or “ultramontanist” or “modernist” (I just dealt with this approach 13 days ago). In this case, it is chiefly mischaracterizing me as a mere “polemicist” as opposed to an “apologist.”

4) As a common variation on the latter theme, the tactic is to pretend that I “used” to just devote myself to [good and helpful] apologetics, but I supposedly no longer do, and am now solely or overwhelmingly doing “polemics” or “attacking” the reactionaries as my raison d’être. Quite often, a blast at me being a “convert” is included in this.

5) #4 is demonstrably untrue, as I will prove beyond doubt as I proceed. Criticizing reactionaries is a tiny part of my overall work, and I have been doing it (as a tiny part) for the entire 25 years I have been online. It’s nothing new. If Fr. Hugh had simply perused my website for ten minutes, he would have readily observed this.

6) As an extra bonus, rhetoric of this sort is often accompanied by unsubtle insinuations that I am filled with pride; that “it’s all about him [me]” etc. Thus, it entails judging my interior motivations and my soul, which is always ill-advised and a very tricky business (to put it mildly).

THERE IS ALWAYS a little frisson of alarm through my frail flesh whenever Google Alerts tells me my name has appeared afresh on the internet. Thankfully it is rare, and overwhelmingly the mention proves to be benign, often merely incidental. Occasionally it is not. Today is such a day.

I’m glad it is rare for Fr. Hugh. I have to deal with such mentions almost on a weekly basis (since my 3,800+ articles and 50 books are “out there”), and usually they are negative in nature (as presently). It’s all part of the package of being an apologist.

[he cites Scott Hahn as an apologist marked by “happy zeal”]

Not all convert apologists are so positive. America seems to have a goodly share of convert apologists who began well and have deteriorated into polemicists. 

This is the shot taken against converts (#4 above), as if we are especially prone to error in a way that cradle Catholics are not. And we already have the either/or caricature of “once a helpful apologist, now only a useless polemicist” (also #4). This is bearing false witness, if he is trying to apply it to me, as I will show.

They even seem to manifest what is called by many now hyper-papalism, and any word of criticism, however mild, oblique or muted, against Pope Francis is the dog-whistle for them to attack. And attack is the word.

This is the tired “papolater” / “ultramontanist” accusation (#3 above), so often sadly trotted out at the slightest criticism of reactionary thinking and behavior. It’s simply not true of myself, as I recently clarified for the 100th time. I wrote tongue-in-cheek there:

It’s the usual canard that any papal defender must be an “ultramontanist” or “papolater” who thinks the color of socks that the pope picks out or a weather report from the Holy Father are infallible.

They do not practise apologetics any more; the trade they now ply is polemics. It is not attractive. In fact, there is something sinister about it.

What’s sinister is that this is a lie; it’s a falsehood, a whopper, bearing false witness. It is not true about me and never has been. I have about 50 separate and distinct web pages on my blog. Only one — though it is extensive; but so are most of my web pages — is devoted to the reactionaries (about 2% of the whole). I’ve written fifty books. Just two (4%) are devoted to reactionaries. Note that my first one on the topic was dated December 2002 in its first edition. That’s almost 19 years ago. Obviously, I was dealing with the topic back then, and it was a small minority of all that I dealt with, then, just as now. Nothing has changed at all.

If it is true that I do so at least “more” than I used to, that would be due to the fact that Pope Francis is daily attacked by reactionaries, and so there is more occasion to counter-respond, in a way that wasn’t present with Pope St. John Paul II (though he was assuredly attacked, and I defended him) and Pope Benedict XVI (ditto). Apologetics is often driven by the events of the day. It’s my duty as an apologist to defend the Holy Father, generally, and particularly if he is unjustly attacked. So I do so. Then I get falsely — and absurdly — accused of doing only this.

If anyone doubts that I have been dealing with this topic during the entire time I have engaged in online apologetics, they ought to be made aware of papers of mine on these topics dated 7-30-99 and 8-1-99: listed on my appropriate web page. That’s over 22 years ago. I have many other papers from years ago listed there. For example:

Syllabus of 60 Radical Catholic Reactionary Errors [2000]

Debate on the Reactionary Group, The Remnant [1-24-00]

Critique of The Remnant [2000]

Debate: My “Syllabus of 60 Catholic Reactionary Errors” [11-24-00]

Radical Catholic Reactionaries vs. an Optimistic Faith [1-21-01]

Dietrich von Hildebrand & Legitimate Traditionalism (2-27-02; terminology and a few other minor things revised on 4-18-20)

Why Not Kick Modernist Dissenters Out of the Church? [3-7-02]

2nd Conversion? Reactionary Absurdities Satirized [10-7-03]

Vatican I on Papal Infallibility: “Ultramontanism”? [3-29-04]

Mark Shea is one such. Indeed his worsening online content caused the termination of his connection with EWTN and its journal, National Catholic Register.

That’s right. At the time I was a vociferous (public and private) defender of National Catholic Register, against his attacks. Partially as a result, they hired me and I started regularly writing for them in September 2016 (258 articles from then till now). In all those articles, neither “traditionalist” nor “reactionary” ever appears. I wrote about Pope Francis exactly one time (on 9-30-17), and that was a mild criticism: urging him to answer the dubia. It’s all apologetics and theology. Yet Fr. Hugh claims all I do is polemics.

Another is Dave Armstrong.

Again, this is a lie, as I have already shown is the case, and I will offer more undeniable proof before I am done.

Armstrong began his convert’s apologetical career with very useful works demonstrating to Protestants how the Catholic Church is more biblically faithful than the so-called bible-based evangelical, reformed and generally Protestant denominations. They were just as useful for cradle Catholics. But now he has become a polemicist, but with a twist. More on that later.

This is absolute nonsense; hogwash! I’ve done exactly the same from the beginning. I take on all major errors, both outside and inside the Church. If Fr. Hugh insists on claiming that all I do is criticize reactionaries, then how does he explain the list of my forty most recent blog papers (over the last six weeks)? Here they are:

“Pope Francis is SO Confusing!”: A Spirited Reply (9-7-21) [trad / reactionary / Pope Francis issues #1]

Traditionis Custodes Results: No Fallen Sky (I Called It) (9-6-21) [trad / reactionary / Pope Francis issues #2]

The Orthodoxy of Pope Francis (9-6-21) [trad / reactionary / Pope Francis issues #3]

Hebrews 10:12, Vulgate, & the Mass (James White’s Lie) (9-3-21) [contra-Protestant / pro-Catholic apologetics #1]

COVID: Catholics Can’t Avoid “Remote Cooperation with Evil” (9-3-21) [COVID #1]

Pearce’s Potshots #46: Who Wrote the Gospel of John? (9-2-21) [contra-atheist / pro-Bible apologetics #1]

Limited Atonement: Refutation of James White (9-1-21) [contra-Protestant / pro-Catholic apologetics #2]

Bible on Germ Theory: An Atheist Hems & Haws (8-31-21) [Bible & Science apologetics #1]

Pearce’s Potshots #45: “Unholy Questions” for God (8-29-21) [contra-atheist / pro-Bible apologetics #2]

A “Biblical” Immaculate Conception? (vs. James White) (8-27-21) [contra-Protestant / pro-Catholic apologetics #3]

Baptismal Regeneration: Refutation of James White (8-27-21) [contra-Protestant / pro-Catholic apologetics #4]

Tower of Babel, Baked Bricks, Bitumen, & Archaeology (8-26-21) [Bible & Archaeology apologetics #1]

My Supposed “Papolatry”: Outrageous Reactionary Lies (8-26-21) [trad / reactionary / Pope Francis issues #4]

Reply to Engwer’s Alleged “Absence of a Papacy” (8-25-21) [contra-Protestant / pro-Catholic apologetics #5]

Genesis 10 “Table of Nations”: Authentic History (8-25-21) [Bible & Archaeology apologetics #2]

Acacia, Ark of the Covenant, & Biblical Accuracy (8-24-21) [Bible & Archaeology apologetics #3]

Natural Immunity from COVID: Four Scientific Studies (8-22-21) [COVID #2]

COVID Vaccines, Conscience, & the Pope: a Catholic Dialogue (8-21-21) [COVID #3]

Quails, Wandering Hebrews, & Biblical Accuracy (8-17-21) [Bible & Science apologetics #2]

Pearce’s Potshots #44: Jairus’ Daughter “Contradiction”? (8-17-21) [contra-atheist / pro-Bible apologetics #3]

In Search of the Real Mt. Sinai (8-16-21) [Bible & Archaeology apologetics #4]

Debate: Conscience vs. COVID Vaccines / Natural & Herd Immunity (8-16-21) [COVID #4]

Unvaccinated People, Conscience, Condescension, & Coercion (8-14-21) [COVID #5]

Overly Strict Parenting: Catholic Traditionalist Self-Critique (8-13-21) [trad / reactionary / Pope Francis issues #5]

The Amsterdam Apparitions: Where Are We Now? (8-13-21) [Catholic apologetics #1] [25]

Parting of the Red Sea: Feasible Scientific Explanation? (8-11-21) [Bible & Science apologetics #3]

Plagues of Egypt: Possible Natural Explanations (8-11-21) [Bible & Science apologetics #4]

Joseph in Egypt, Archaeology, & Historiography (8-7-21) [Bible & Archaeology apologetics #5]

Why Folks Like the New Catholic Answer Bible (8-5-21) [Catholic apologetics #2]

Archaeology Verifies 13th c. BC Cities Listed in Joshua (8-5-21) [Bible & Archaeology apologetics #6]

Pearce’s Potshots #43: Joshua’s Conquest & Archaeology (8-3-21) [Bible & Archaeology apologetics #7]

Dialogue w Traditionalist “Hurt” by Traditionis Custodes (8-2-21) [trad / reactionary / Pope Francis issues #6]

Traditionis Custodes: Sky Hasn’t Fallen (Bishops) (8-2-21) [trad / reactionary / Pope Francis issues #7]

Archaeology, Ancient Hebrew, & a Written Pentateuch (7-31-21) [Bible & Archaeology apologetics #8]

Abraham, Warring Kings of Genesis 14, & History (7-31-21) [Bible & Archaeology apologetics #9] [35]

Pope St. Clement of Rome & Papal Authority (7-28-21) [contra-Protestant / pro-Catholic apologetics #6]

Was Sodom Destroyed by a Meteor in Abraham’s Time? (7-27-21) [Bible & Science apologetics #5]

Abraham & Hebron: Archaeology Backs Up the Bible (7-24-21) [Bible & Archaeology apologetics #10]

Abraham, Salem, Mt. Moriah, Jerusalem, & Archaeology (7-24-21) [Bible & Archaeology apologetics #11]

Abraham’s Shechem Lines Up With Archaeology (7-23-21) [Bible & Archaeology apologetics #12]

We see, then, that there were only seven articles out of 40, about the reactionary / traditionalist / Pope Francis stuff , or 17.5% of the whole. That is hardly “all” I do, is it? Here’s the entire breakdown:

Bible & archaeology (12 = 30%)

reactionary / traditionalist / Pope Francis stuff [7 = 17.5%]

contra-Protestant / pro-Catholic apologetics (6 = 15%)

COVID (5 = 12.5%)

Bible & science apologetics (5 = 12.5%)

contra-atheist / pro-Bible apologetics (3 = 7.5%)

Catholic apologetics [i.e., non-debate treatments] (2 = 5%)

28 out of 40 (70%) are about apologetics, and I would say the reactionary criticism is apologetics, too, because as I see it, I am defending Holy Mother Church and the Holy Father. So it’s really 35 out of 40, or 87.5% apologetics, with five additional articles on COVID (of obvious import).

The article begins with the perpendicular pronoun, and this is the key to understanding the apologetic polemics of such as Armstrong. It is all about them. A man has to earn his living, of course, but when a Catholic apologist becomes the product, there is a grave problem.

More personal attacks . . . I was simply noting:

I catch so much hell from radical Catholic reactionaries for my criticism of their errors and excesses that I do think it is worthwhile (not to mention educational: if they will accept it) to point out to them that I was dead-on in my predictions about what would happen after the issuance of Pope Francis’ Motu proprio Traditionis Custodes.

Yes, it’s polemics, which is not always a bad thing; in this case it was educational; in effect, “learn from history!”. It depends on what the polemics are about and how they are done. Jesus and Paul and the prophets engaged in tons of polemics and jeremiads. The latter word is even derived from the prophet Jeremiah. So they can’t possibly all be “bad.” Most of the polemics against Pope Francis are, I submit, “bad.”

So Armstrong, ignoring the bishops who have outright forbidden the old Mass in toto, looks at the many bishops who have not suppressed the old Mass but have allowed the status quo ante to continue. 

I’m simply observing at this point. I have inquired as to the reasons why particular bishops have totally prohibited the Old Mass. So far I haven’t seen any reasons. One person showed me how two bishops did that but provided no reasons. I immediately responded that this was a bad thing: that they should explain why, with reasoning and fact, per Traditionis. I am all for traditional liturgy. That’s why I was a member at a parish that performed Latin Masses (ordinary form) for 25 years. And it’s why I’ve written a lot about liturgical abuses.

What he does not acknowledge is that in these cases the bishops have been clear that this indulgence is temporary, while they decide a more lasting response, since the motu proprio caught them on the hop (collegiality did not extend to warning the bishops it seems).

Time will tell. My position is clear and has been constant: the Old Mass should only be suppressed in cases where there is rampant radical Catholic reactionary thinking in the immediate environment, which does no good for anyone.

So, Dave is right that the sky has not fallen in for traditionalists…yet. We’ll see how prophetic he is in a year’s time.

Yes we will. If the rough percentage of suppression is the same, will Fr. Hugh admit that I was an accurate prognosticator then? Of course, many of the alarmists in July were confident that the Old Mass was gonna be entirely prohibited. That is plainly not happening anytime soon, if ever. So they are already manifestly shown to be hysterically wrong. Fr. Hugh’s own statement that I cited (because he was cited — along with myself — in a survey by Peter Kwasniewski) was:

the old Mass was good in the “old days” (all 1400+ years of them) but is not good for today, and so cannot be countenanced in the modern Church. [link]

This implies that the goal of the pope is total abolition of it. So far there is no sign of such a thing; quite the contrary. So we’ll see how prophetic he is, too, in a year’s time. But my original citation of Fr. Hugh from the same article, shows how radical his views really are:

Color coding:

red = defectibility; the idea that the Church and/or pope can fall away from the faith and apostatize. It’s the most radical reactionary idea of all. * purple = Pope Francis is a bad man, tyrant, deceiver, uncaring, cruel, modernist, stinkin’ theological liberal, pulls the wings off of flies, burns ants with magnifying glasses, is stupid & ignorant, is not to be respected or believed, etc. * green = Vatican II stinks, is of lesser authority than Trent & other ecumenical councils; it was a liberal revolution, cause of all ills in the Church, etc. [in one case, Vatican I was also trashed].
the old Mass was good in the “old days” (all 1400+ years of them) but is not good for today, and so cannot be countenanced in the modern Church. It is the liturgical expression of situational ethics, and the relativisation of absolute truthWhatever it is, this is not Christianity in any authentic sense, one could reasonably argue that this is a bitter fruit not of Vatican II, but Vatican I, Collegiality has disappeared as a meaningful doctrine, This is not a pastoral document; it is a political one, If anything, it is Jacobin, It is hard to recall an exercise of authority as self-defeating as TC, Though in his name, TC was not written by Francis, TC is not progress, but aggressive defensiveness.

But it is really about Dave anyway. It is him the whole way through:

Nonsense. It’s a piece of provocative polemics and “I told you so!”: just as I made very clear at the beginning. But it’s not all I do. That’s the lie that has motivated me to write this response. I don’t like being lied about and grossly misrepresented. Nobody does. I respond for the sake of my apostolate. I am literally harmed by “hit pieces” like this: both my reputation and name, and my livelihood. So I respond for the sake of the ministry: which is a good thing, because it is ordained by God, through calling, just as Fr. Hugh was called to be a priest.

There seems to be a radical insecurity underlying polemics like this. 

Right. Now we’re into pseudo-psychoanalysis. He thinks he can read my heart and my inner states of being.

Having converted to popery, . . . 

Um, I converted to the Holy Catholic Church, thank you. Part of that is an infallible pope, not an inspired one or impeccable one. As I noted in reply to the last attack on me, in my conversion story in Surprised by Truth, the pope was never mentioned as any sort of reason why I converted. That’s a matter of record. Fr. Hugh can either criticize / debate me, or a straw man caricature that is supposedly “me.”

these ex-evangelical converts must now double-down on hyper-papalism to shore up their own faith. Or so it seems.

This is the lie, reiterated, that I am a “hyper-papalist” / “ultramontanist” blah blah blah: which has never been the case at all. I came in largely because of Cardinal Newman’s reasoning, and he is the furthest thing from that. Yes, I was an evangelical, and I am proud of the great deal of truth I learned while in their ranks. They often are far more committed to Bible study, prayer, and evangelism than Catholics are. We can learn much from them in practice. And they can learn a lot from us.

My involvement comes in that I am listed, indiscriminately among writers of often quite different hue and tone, as one of those who offered an “hysterical, unhinged, and ridiculous” response to the motu proprio.

They don’t have to all be exactly the same. What I was citing was what I thought was excessive reaction to Traditionis. I found out about him because Peter Kwasniewski listed him as a responder. For him to say that the old Mass “cannot be countenanced in the modern Church” (as if that is the pope’s thinking) is indeed a “ridiculous” response. Strong words, yes, but it’s directed to the folks who never have a second’s hesitation to use many strong words against the pope (most undeserved). They simply can’t take their own medicine. They insulate themselves from criticism and usually have no interest in critical comments or analysis of outsiders.

Moreover, he has not bothered to note subsequent posts which reflect further not only on the document itself but also on the impolitic attitudes of some traditionalists

It wasn’t my purpose. All writings have (or should have) a specific purpose and goal. I’m busy writing about apologetics 70% of the time, and about issues like COVID for another 13%. But I’m happy to hear it. Fr. Hugh would be welcome to highlight those comments of his in further dialogue, but he has already stated that he won’t be writing about me again (I’m persona non grata), so that includes (and precludes) any possible dialogue. He simply wants to “hit and run.”

But perspective and context would spoil the force of his self-promoting polemic:

More personal attacks . . .

It is of note that Armstrong does not really engage with the arguments of any of these writers, most but not all of whom are traditionalists.

That’s right. It wasn’t my purpose, which was to simply document what they said and what has been the actual result so far (which appears to not warrant their alarmism and hysteria). As I wrote when I first cited Fr. Hugh and others:

I am particularly documenting the personal trashing and sinful attempts to read the pope’s mind and heart; judging his motives. This is the purpose of this article; not to exhaustively engage in every argument against Traditionis custodes. That is for another time and another article. [italics and bolding in original]

My recent article that Fr. Hugh objects to was a piece of “polemical sociology.” People like Erasmus and St. Thomas More and many others (Malcolm Muggeridge in recent years) have done similar things throughout history.

Nor does he engage in any way with the upset that prompts them to express their misgivings and hurt. He does not care about them or their feelings. 

That doesn’t follow from what I have written. I would say that I care about them in telling the truth to them (a loving rebuke), even if in this case it is forceful and a “hard truth” to accept. The prophets did the same; so did Paul and Jesus. People often didn’t like hearing what they said (leading to both being killed). That is love. One can’t simply take one polemical piece and act as if that is all a writer does. It would be like pretending that all Jesus ever did was excoriate the Pharisees (Matthew 23) and whip the moneychangers. If that’s all we knew about Jesus we’d have a radically different view of Him, wouldn’t we? But we must speak the “whole truth and nothing but the truth” about other people.

Nor does he try to argue how the attempt to curtail the most vigorous part of the western, first-world Church might be justified in any pastoral or evangelistic way, nor what it says that most of the vigour and new life in our section of the Church lies precisely in the more traditional observance.

I dealt with these sorts of things, at least in part, in my first response to Traditionis and some subsequent ones: including a dialogue. Fr. Hugh seems to think I am incapable of dialogue with a traditionalist or what I would classify as a reactionary. He is obviously unaware of my seven cordial dialogues with Timothy Flanders: associate of Taylor Marshall and currently editor at the major reactionary site, One Peter Five:

Reply to Timothy Flanders’ Defense of Taylor Marshall [7-8-19]

Dialogue w Ally of Taylor Marshall, Timothy Flanders [7-17-19]

Dialogue w 1P5 Writer Timothy Flanders: Introduction [2-1-20]

Dialogue w Timothy Flanders #2: State of Emergency? [2-25-20]

Is Vatican II Analogous to “Failed” Lateran Council V? [8-11-20]

Dialogue #6 w 1P5 Columnist Timothy Flanders [8-24-20]

Dialogue #7 w 1P5 Columnist Timothy Flanders (Highlighting Papal Indefectibility, Pastor Aeternus from Vatican I in 1870, & the “Charitable Anathema”) [12-1-20]

We have a pretty warm relationship. And we will keep dialoguing. And we do because he doesn’t pretend that all I do is this kind of stuff. He recognizes that I am a legitimate Catholic apologist who is — by God’s enabling grace — helping to bring people into the Church and others to stay there.

For you see, he is a polemicist, not an apologist.

Now we’re back to the either/or slanderous lies.

Vitriol drips from his pen. It is sad to behold. Read him by all means, but at your own risk, for you will be exposed to what is essentially Catholicism à l’Armstrong, and not the faith of Christ unadulterated. If you can stomach it, go for it. But you might want to vaccinate yourself first.

Your choice, readers!

Or far better, read some Frank Sheed, Fulton Sheen, Scott Hahn, Carol Robinson… the list is longer of apologists who will nourish your faith rather than fan your passions.

By all means, go read them. I have about thirty books in my own library from the first three. Scott Hahn wrote the Foreword to my second book (he volunteered; I didn’t even ask him), so he must have seen something in me. He has written glowing recommendations and once asked me to be a speaker at the Defending the Faith Conference in Steubenville (I respectfully declined because I hardly do any speaking). He once wanted me to directly work with him as well (finances precluded it at the time). I have defended him several times when he was attacked (with his thanks expressed). So this is hardly a “Hahn vs. Armstrong” scenario.

It should be said that no further word will be offered on Armstrong here, no matter what fresh outrage he might commit.

As I said, Fr. Hugh clearly has no interest in actual dialogue, or hearing any other side. It’s strictly “hit and run.” And that is infinitely more objectionable than one piece of mine in which I indulged in “I told you so!” polemics: for a good cause.

***

Photo credit: geralt (7-27-17) [Pixabay / Pixabay License]

***

Summary: A priest decided that because I criticized reactionary overreaction to the regulation of the Old Mass, that I no longer do any apologetics at all; that I am supposedly only a “polemicist” now.

 

2021-07-28T16:57:48-04:00

This is a reply to an article from a (Reformed) Protestant apologist, Matt Hedges, entitled, “Does Clement of Rome’s Letter to the Corinthians Prove Papal Authority?” (7-27-21). His words (every single one is cited) will be in blue.

*****

One of the earliest examples in church history appealed to by Roman Catholic apologists is when Clement (bishop of Rome at the time) wrote a letter to the Corinthians settling a disruption which had taken place there. Basically what had happened was that the congregation was deposing some of their presbyters. Clement (though his name is not in the letter, virtually everyone today accepts him to be its author) wrote to the church in Corinth to settle the controversies

Roman Catholic apologists claim that this letter has the tone of a superior speaking to an inferior, and that this thus proves the idea of papal authority over other churches. [my bolding and italics added]

This aspect shouldn’t be lightly passed over.  Why is it that Clement is speaking with authority from Rome, settling the disputes of other regions? Why don’t the Corinthians solve it themselves, if they have a proclaimed bishop or even if they didn’t claim one at the time? Why do they appeal to the bishop of Rome? These are questions that I think Matt needs to seriously consider and offer some sort of answer for.

St. Clement writes (I use the standard Schaff translation: no Catholic “bias” there!):

You therefore, who laid the foundation of this sedition, submit yourselves to the presbyters, and receive correction so as to repent, bending the knees of your hearts. Learn to be subject, laying aside the proud and arrogant self-confidence of your tongue. For it is better for you that you should occupy a humble but honourable place in the flock of Christ, than that, being highly exalted, you should be cast out from the hope of His people. (57)

If, however, any shall disobey the words spoken by Him through us, let them know that they will involve themselves in transgression and serious danger; . . . (59, my bolding and italics)

Joy and gladness will you afford us, if you become obedient to the words written by us and through the Holy Spirit root out the lawless wrath of your jealousy according to the intercession which we have made for peace and unity in this letter. (63, my bolding and italics)

Clement definitely asserts his authority over the Corinthian church far away. Again, the question is: “why?” What sense does that make in a Protestant-type ecclesiology where every region is autonomous and there is supposedly no hierarchical authority in the Christian Church? Why must they “obey” the bishop from another region (sections 59, 63)? Not only does Clement assert strong authority; he also claims that Jesus and the Holy Spirit are speaking “through” him.

That is extraordinary, and very similar to what we see in the Jerusalem Council in Acts 15:28 (“For it has seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things”: RSV) and in Scripture itself. It’s not strictly inspiration but it is sure something akin to infallibility (divine protection from error and the pope as a unique mouthpiece of, or representative of God).

Moreover, Max Lackmann, a Lutheran, makes the observation:

Clement, as the spokesman of the whole People of God . . . admonishes the Church of Corinth in serious, authoritative and brotherly tones to correct the internal abuses of their ecclesiastical community. He censures, exhorts, cautions, entreats . . . The use of the expression send back in the statement: Send back speedily unto us our messengers (1 Clement 65,1), is not merely a special kind of biblical phrase but also a form of Roman imperial command. The Roman judge in a province of the empire sent back a messenger or a packet of documents to the imperial capital or to the court of the emperor (Acts 25:21). Clement of Rome doubtless also knew this administrative terminology of the imperial government and used it effectively. (In Hans Asmussen, et al, The Unfinished Reformation, translated by Robert J. Olsen, Notre Dame, Indiana: Fides Publishers Association, 1961, 84-85)

Catholic apologist Joe Heschmeyer adds:

It’s also worth noticing that Clement is involved in this situation at all. It’s clear from the outset of the letter, in which he apologies for being “somewhat tardy in turning our attention to the points respecting which you consulted us,” that it was actually the Corinthians who reached out to Clement and the Church at Rome. This isn’t a case of a meddlesome Roman bishop but of a Greek church reaching out to the Roman bishop to settle a strictly internal dispute.

Consider also the reception of St. Clement’s letter. If the early Church were Protestant, we might expect them to pay little heed to St. Clement, treating him merely as another churchman or as a threat to the apostolic order . . . 

[T]he mere fact that there was a question on this point tells us something about how Church members beyond Rome viewed the bishops of Rome following St. Peter. . . . 

What makes Pope Clement’s involvement in the Corinthian dispute more shocking is that it happened around the year 96, while the apostle John is still alive. In a colorful 1914 anti-Catholic sermon, pastor George Rutledge proclaimed to a crowd of about 1,500 people that the Catholic claims to the papacy couldn’t be true because “the apostle John lived a number of years after Peter’s death. Yet Rome declares a fellow by the name of Linus was made pope while an apostle was living!”

Rutledge argued that since apostles are the highest order within the Church (1 Cor. 12:28), St. John would have “had a just grievance and could have bankrupted the whole business.” Yet St. Clement’s letter is evidence that St. Peter’s successors did play a central role in the governance of the early Church, even during the lifetime of the apostle John—and that John, as far as is recorded, did not object. (“The Papacy in the Early Church”, Catholic Answers, 10-23-19)

There have been many responses from Reformed folks concerning this argument in the past (especially during the 19th century around Vatican I when you have tons of books from both sides on the historical facts surrounding the papacy). One popular argument against Rome in this situation is to say that Clement was writing not on behalf of himself solely, but on behalf of the church of Rome. 

Even if we assume that to be true, I submit that the essential questions I have asked, remain: why does Corinth have to obey Rome? Who determined that set-up? Why does it even cross their mind to write to a local church far away to settle their problems, and why does Clement assume that they should obey him, and that it would be “transgression and serious danger” if they don’t? Why does Matt pass over these crucial questions, that cry out for an answer?

While this argument may be true, I take a slightly different approach to answering the Roman Catholic argument. 

Well, give it a shot! Frankly, Matt’s argument so far is distinctly unimpressive. He’s raised more unanswered questions than given plausible answers. I am thankful, however, for the opportunity to strengthen this particular argument (Clement’s authority) more than I ever have in 30 years of Catholic apologetics. I always learn new things in defending Holy Mother Church and Holy Scripture, and that’s a great blessing.

Take notice of the following language from Clement:

“But not to dwell upon ancient examples, let us come to the most recent spiritual heroes. Let us take the noble examples furnished in our own generation. Through envy and jealousy, the greatest and most righteous pillars [of the Church] have been persecuted and put to death. Let us set before our eyes the illustrious apostles. Peter, through unrighteous envy, endured not one or two, but numerous labours and when he had at length suffered martyrdom, departed to the place of glory due to him. Owing to envy, Paul also obtained the reward of patient endurance, after being seven times thrown into captivity, compelled to flee, and stoned. After preaching both in the east and west, he gained the illustrious reputation due to his faith, having taught righteousness to the whole world, and come to the extreme limit of the west, and suffered martyrdom under the prefects. Thus was he removed from the world, and went into the holy place, having proved himself a striking example of patience.” (Chapter 5 in Epistle to the Corinthians)

Clement speaks of Peter and Paul here on the same level, language which would seem to be inconsistent with the RC view of Peter’s authority and position. This part of the letter would seem to be a proper place for Clement to at least say something of Peter’s authority as the bishop of Rome. But he does not, for the simple reason that he knew of no such thing.

The last section is an argument from silence, which amounts to no argument at all. As for the rest, I have at least seven separate replies:

1) Philippians 4:2-3 (RSV) I entreat Eu-o’dia and I entreat Syn’tyche to agree in the Lord. [3] And I ask you also, true yokefellow, help these women, for they have labored side by side with me in the gospel together with Clement and the rest of my fellow workers,

Note that Paul commanded Eu-o’dia and Syn’tyche “to agree in the Lord.” So he was higher in authority than them. Yet he calls them (along with Clement) “fellow workers”. Doe this “prove” then, that Eu-o’dia, Syn’tyche, St. Paul, and St. Clement are all “on the same level”: because they are “fellow workers”? No, of course not.

2) 1 Peter 5:1 So I exhort the elders among you, as a fellow elder . . . 

This also illustrates the biblical and Catholic “both/and” outlook (which is crucial to understand throughout this whole discussion). Peter humbly calls himself a “fellow elder.” But it doesn’t follow that he has no more authority than the other bishops. In fact, he assumes authority throughout his epistle: “gird up your minds” (1:13); “be holy yourselves in all your conduct” (1:15); “love one another earnestly from the heart” (1:22); “So put away all malice and all guile and insincerity and envy and all slander” (2:1); “long for the pure spiritual milk” (2:2); “abstain from the passions of the flesh” (2:11); “Maintain good conduct among the Gentiles” (2:12); “Be subject for the Lord’s sake to every human institution” (2:13); “Honor all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honor the emperor.” (2:17); ” wives, be submissive to your husbands” (3:1); “Likewise you husbands, live considerately with your wives, bestowing honor on the woman” (3:7); “have unity of spirit, sympathy, love of the brethren, a tender heart and a humble mind.” (3:8); “Do not return evil for evil or reviling for reviling” (3:9); “in your hearts reverence Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to make a defense” (3:15: apologetics!); ” keep your conscience clear” (3:16); “keep sane and sober for your prayers” (4:7); “hold unfailing your love for one another” (4:8); “Practice hospitality ungrudgingly to one another” (4:9); “As each has received a gift, employ it for one another” (4:10); “Tend the flock of God that is your charge” (5:2: addressed specifically to other bishops); “you that are younger be subject to the elders” (5:5); “Humble yourselves therefore under the mighty hand of God” (5:6); “Be sober, be watchful” (5:8); and “Resist him, firm in your faith” (5:9).

Are all these simply optional pseudo-commands? It’s authority!

3) St. Paul and St. Peter at the Jerusalem Council. Paul is by no means even Peter’s equal, let alone superior, as evidence from the council proves, in my opinion. I wrote elsewhere:

From Acts 15, we learn that “after there was much debate, Peter rose” to address the assembly (15:7). The Bible records his speech, which goes on for five verses. Then it reports that “all the assembly kept silence” (15:12). Paul and Barnabas speak next, not making authoritative pronouncements, but confirming Peter’s exposition, speaking about “signs and wonders God had done through them among the Gentiles” (15:12). Then when James speaks, he refers right back to what “Simeon [Peter] has related” (15:14). To me, this suggests that Peter’s talk was central and definitive. James speaking last could easily be explained by the fact that he was the bishop of Jerusalem and therefore the “host.”
St. Peter indeed had already received a relevant revelation, related to the council. God gave him a vision of the cleanness of all foods (contrary to the Jewish Law: see Acts 10:9-16). St. Peter is already learning about the relaxation of Jewish dietary laws, and is eating with uncircumcised men, and is ready to proclaim the gospel widely to the Gentiles (Acts 10 and 11).
This was the secondary decision of the Jerusalem Council, and Peter referred to his experiences with the Gentiles at the council (Acts 15:7-11). The council then decided — with regard to food –, to prohibit only that which “has been sacrificed to idols and from blood and from what is strangled” (15:29).

4) Paul’s Rebuke of Peter. This was for hypocrisy, and doesn’t imply a denial of Peter’s authority. Likewise, in Catholic history, popes have been rebuked by saints and laymen: St. Catherine of Siena, St. Dominic, and St. Francis of Assisi, to name three. See my papers:

Is St. Paul Superior to St. Peter? (Dialogue) [1998; expanded 5-13-02]

Paul Rebuked Peter: Disproof of Papacy? [2007]

Pitting Paul Against Peter (Pathetic, Pitiful Pedantry): Reply to Failed Anti-Catholic Protestant Attempts to Tear Down St. Peter and His Papal Authority [8-10-12]

Did St. Paul Seek St. Peter’s Approval for His Ministry? (+ Does The Word Order in Galatians 2:9 Suggest a Lowering of Peter’s Primacy?) [4-27-17 and 9-4-17]

Does Paul’s Rebuke of Peter Disprove Papal Infallibility? [National Catholic Register, 3-31-18]

5) Paul Referred to Himself as a “Deacon”

I wrote in my book, A Biblical Defense of Catholicism:

It is also incorrect to regard St. Paul as some kind of spiritual “lone ranger,” on his own with no particular ecclesiastical allegiance, since he was commissioned by Jesus Himself as an Apostle. In his very conversion experience, Jesus informed Paul that he would be told what to do (Acts 9:6; cf. 9:17). He went to see St. Peter in Jerusalem for fifteen days in order to be confirmed in his calling (Galatians 1:18), and fourteen years later was commissioned by Peter, James, and John (Galatians 2:1-2,9). He was also sent out by the Church at Antioch (Acts 13:1-4), which was in contact with the Church at Jerusalem (Acts 11:19-27). Later on, Paul reported back to Antioch (Acts 14:26-28).

The New Testament refers basically to three types of permanent offices in the Church (Apostles and Prophets were to cease): bishops (episkopos), elders (presbyteros, from which are derived Presbyterian and priest), and deacons (diakonos). Bishops are mentioned in Acts 1:20, 20:28, Philippians 1:1, 1 Timothy 3:1-2, Titus 1:7, and 1 Peter 2:25. Presbyteros (usually elder) appears in passages such as Acts 15:2-6, 21:18, Hebrews 11:2, 1 Peter 5:1, and 1 Timothy 5:17. Protestants view these leaders as analogous to current-day pastors, while Catholics regard them as priests. Deacons (often, minister in English translations) are mentioned in the same fashion as Christian elders with similar frequency (for example, 1 Corinthians 3:5, Philippians 1:1, 1 Thessalonians 3:2, 1 Timothy 3:8-13).

As is often the case in theology and practice among the earliest Christians, there is some fluidity and overlapping of these three vocations (for example, compare Acts 20:17 with 20:28; 1 Timothy 3:1-7 with Titus 1:5-9). But this doesn’t prove that three offices of ministry did not exist. For instance, St. Paul often referred to himself as a deacon or minister (1 Corinthians 3:5, 4:1, 2 Corinthians 3:6, 6:4, 11:23, Ephesians 3:7, Colossians1:23-25), yet no one would assert that he was merely a deacon, and nothing else. Likewise, St. Peter calls himself a fellow elder (1 Peter 5:1), whereas Jesus calls him the rock upon which He would build His Church, and gave him alone the keys of the kingdom of heaven (Matthew 16:18-19). These examples are usually indicative of a healthy humility, according to Christ’s injunctions of servanthood (Matthew 23:11-12, Mark 10:43-44).

Upon closer observation, clear distinctions of office appear, and the hierarchical nature of Church government in the New Testament emerges. Bishops are always referred to in the singular, while elders are usually mentioned plurally. (pp. 251-252)

I elaborated upon the “Paul as a Deacon” theme in another paper:

St. Paul calls himself a “deacon” (i.e., Greek diakonos) in many places, as I noted in the book (RSV):

1 Corinthians 3:5: What then is Apol’los? What is Paul? Servants through whom you believed, as the Lord assigned to each.

2 Corinthians 3:5-6: Not that we are competent of ourselves to claim anything as coming from us; our competence is from God, who has made us competent to be ministers of a new covenant, not in a written code but in the Spirit; for the written code kills, but the Spirit gives life.

2 Corinthians 6:3-4: We put no obstacle in any one’s way, so that no fault may be found with our ministry [diakonia], but as servants of God we commend ourselves in every way: through great endurance, in afflictions, hardships, calamities,

2 Corinthians 11:22-23: Are they Hebrews? So am I. Are they Israelites? So am I. Are they descendants of Abraham? So am I. Are they servants of Christ? I am a better one . . .

Ephesians 3:7: Of this gospel I was made a minister according to the gift of God’s grace which was given me by the working of his power.

Colossians 1:23,25: . . . the hope of the gospel which you heard, which has been preached to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, became a minister. . . . of which I became a minister according to the divine office which was given to me for you, to make the word of God fully known, . . .

Compare Paul’s similar use of diakonia as a description of what he does:

Acts 20:24: But I do not account my life of any value nor as precious to myself, if only I may accomplish my course and the ministry which I received from the Lord Jesus, to testify to the gospel of the grace of God.

Romans 11:13: Inasmuch then as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry

Romans 15:31: . . . that my service for Jerusalem may be acceptable to the saints,

2 Corinthians 4:1: Therefore, having this ministry by the mercy of God, we do not lose heart.

1 Timothy 1:12: I thank him who has given me strength for this, Christ Jesus our Lord, because he judged me faithful by appointing me to his service,

And also diakoneo:

2 Corinthians 8:19-20: and not only that, but he has been appointed by the churches to travel with us in this gracious work which we are carrying on, for the glory of the Lord and to show our good will. We intend that no one should blame us about this liberal gift which we are administering,

So that is at least fifteen times (I may have missed some) that the Apostle Paul uses the term deacon or related term for himself (diakonos: 7; diakonia: 6; diakoneo: 2). 

6) The Bible Firmly Establishes Petrine Primacy and the Papacy

I demonstrated this in my article, 50 New Testament Proofs for Petrine Primacy & the Papacy [1994]. In many places, I have collected Protestant commentaries on the issue of Peter’s authority. Two of my favorites come from the great Bible scholar F. F. Bruce:

The keys of a royal or noble establishment were entrusted to the chief steward or majordomo; . . . About 700 B.C. an oracle from God announced that this authority in the royal palace in Jerusalem was to be conferred on a man called Eliakim . . . (Isa. 22:22). So in the new community which Jesus was about to build, Peter would be, so to speak, chief steward. (The Hard Sayings of Jesus, Downers Grove, Illinois: InterVarsity Press, 1983, 143-144)

A Paulinist (and I myself must be so described) is under a constant temptation to underestimate Peter . . . An impressive tribute is paid to Peter by Dr. J.D.G. Dunn towards the end of his Unity and Diversity in the New Testament [London: SCM Press, 1977, 385; emphasis in original]. Contemplating the diversity within the New Testament canon, he thinks of the compilation of the canon as an exercise in bridge-building, and suggests that

it was Peter who became the focal point of unity in the great Church, since Peter was probably in fact and effect the bridge-man who did more than any other to hold together the diversity of first-century Christianity.

Paul and James, he thinks, were too much identified in the eyes of many Christians with this and that extreme of the spectrum to fill the role that Peter did. Consideration of Dr. Dunn’s thoughtful words has moved me to think more highly of Peter’s contribution to the early church, without at all diminishing my estimate of Paul’s contribution. (Peter, Stephen, James, and John, Grand Rapids, Michigan: Eerdmans, 1979, 42-43)

Here are two more great Protestant observations about Peter:

In the . . . exercise of the power of the keys, in ecclesiastical discipline, the thought is of administrative authority (Is 22:22) with regard to the requirements of the household of faith. The use of censures, excommunication, and absolution is committed to the Church in every age, to be used under the guidance of the Spirit . . .

So Peter, in T. W. Manson’s words, is to be ‘God’s vicegerent . . . The authority of Peter is an authority to declare what is right and wrong for the Christian community. His decisions will be confirmed by God’ (The Sayings of Jesus, 1954, p. 205). (New Bible Dictionary, edited by J. D. Douglas, Grand Rapids, Michigan: Eerdmans Pub. Co., 1962, 1018)

Just as in Isaiah 22:22 the Lord puts the keys of the house of David on the shoulders of his servant Eliakim, so does Jesus hand over to Peter the keys of the house of the kingdom of heaven and by the same stroke establishes him as his superintendent. There is a connection between the house of the Church, the construction of which has just been mentioned and of which Peter is the foundation, and the celestial house of which he receives the keys. The connection between these two images is the notion of God’s people. (Oscar Cullmann, St. Peter: Disciple, Apostle, Martyr, Neuchatel: Delachaux & Niestle, 1952 [French edition], 183-184)

7) Jason Engwer and the Half-Serious “Pauline Papacy” Counter-Argument

Protestant apologist Engwer, reacting to my above list, tried to create a rhetorical / satirical tongue-in-cheek one for Paul being more likely to be a pope: if there was one (which he, of course, denies). See:

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Peter and Paul are both referred to as “spiritual heroes”, “the good Apostles”, “the greatest and most righteous pillars of the Church”, and “noble examples”.
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So what? I don’t see that this proves anything; especially not in light of all of the above data I brought to the table (most of it from Holy Scripture). The “heroes of the faith” passages in Hebrews 11 does similarly, but we need not consider all of these heroes as equal in stature (Rahab with Moses and Abraham, etc.).
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Clement does not seem to view Peter as being “above” Paul in the sense that Roman Catholicism would (i.e. as the Vicar of Christ on earth who possesses universal jurisdiction over the entire church). 
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This is largely an argument from silence again. But Clement in effect assumes that Peter had this authority, in how he exercised his own authority, received through apostolic succession and papal successions. It remains for Matt to explain why the Corinthians treat Clement they way they do (as an authority who can resolve their problems), and why St. Clement claims to speak as the mouthpiece of Jesus and the Holy Spirit. 
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St. Paul also referred to “James and Cephas and John, who were reputed to be pillars” (Gal 2:9). Does it follow that they were “on the same level”. I doubt that even many Protestants would claim that James and John were on the same level of authority as Peter.

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More than that, the idea of a monarchial episcopate does not seem to present in Clement’s letter. Notice this portion from chapter 44:

“Our apostles also knew, through our Lord Jesus Christ, and there would be strife on account of the office of the episcopate. For this reason, therefore, inasmuch as they had obtained a perfect fore-knowledge of this, they appointed those [ministers] already mentioned, and afterwards gave instructions, that when these should fall asleep, other approved men should succeed them in their ministry. We are of opinion, therefore, that those appointed by them, or afterwards by other eminent men, with the consent of the whole Church, and who have blamelessly served the flock of Christ in a humble, peaceable, and disinterested spirit, and have for a long time possessed the good opinion of all, cannot be justly dismissed from the ministry. For our sin will not be small, if we eject from the episcopate those who have blamelessly and holily fulfilled its duties. Blessed are those presbyters who, having finished their course before now, have obtained a fruitful and perfect departure [from this world]; for they have no fear lest any one deprive them of the place now appointed them. But we see that ye have removed some men of excellent behaviour from the ministry, which they fulfilled blamelessly and with honour.” (Chapter 44) 

This seems to put presbyters and bishops on  the same level.

The word is monarchical, by the way (with a second “c”). This was already dealt with in my data concerning Paul calling himself a deacon, and the semi-fluidity of the offices as presented in the New Testament. “Episcopate” still is directly concerned with bishops, since the Greek episkopos = bishop.
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St. Clement three times distinguishes between deacons and bishops in section 42. This doesn’t (neither logically nor ecclesiologically) imply a “same level” anymore than similar biblical language implies a “same level” that no Christian would assert (all differentiating between bishop and deacon). Paul refers to “bishops and deacons” in Philippians 1:1. But Scripture clearly differentiates their roles: bishops in 1 Timothy 3:1-2; Titus 1:7 and deacons in 1 Timothy 3:8, 10, 12-13; Romans 16:1.
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“While Clement’s position as a leading presbyter and spokesman of the Christian community at Rome is assured, his letter suggests that the monarchical episcopate had not yet emerged there, and it is therefore impossible to form any precise conception of his constitutional role.” (J.N.D. Kelly, Oxford Dictionary of Popes [Oxford University Press 2005], pg. 8)
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This reply disposes of that assertion, too, in my opinion. St. Ignatius of Antioch also has a very strong view of bishops and hierarchical authority shortly after the time of Clement.
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“The unity of style suggests that the letter is the work of a single author. While the letter, which was sent οη behalf of the whole church (see the subscription), does not name its writer, well-attested ancient tradition and most manuscripts identify it as the work of Clement whose precise identity, however, is not clear. Tradition identifιes him as the third bishop of Rome after Peter, but this is unlikely because the offιce of monarchical bishop, in the sense intended by this later tradition, does not appear to have existed in Rome at this time. Leadership seems to have been entrusted to a group of presbyters or bishops (the two appear to be synonymous in 1 Clement; see 44.1-6), among whom Clement almost certainly was a (if not the) leading fιgure.” (Michael Holmes, The Apostolic Fathers, pg. 35)
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I have that book in my library. Again, I think those who take this position need to grapple with the sorts of arguments I have brought forth. But usually in my experience, Protestants split as soon as the discussion gets interesting, and we provide our counter-arguments. If a view can’t be defended against aggressive and substantive criticism, it’s not worth much.

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Photo credit: Delivery of the Keys of the Kingdom to St. Peter (c. 1482), by Pietro Perugino (1448-1523) [public domain / Wikimedia Commons]

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Summary: Protestant apologist Matt Hedges attempts to make the argument that Clement of Rome, in his letter to the Corinthians, is not exercising papal authority. I contest this with many arguments.

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Tags: apostolic succession, Bible & Papacy, biblical authority, biblical ecclesiology, bishops, Christian Church, Church offices, ecclesiology, elders, fathers & the papacy, papacy, patristic ecclesiology, Petrine primacy, popes, primacy of Rome, St. Peter, Clement of Rome, Clement & the papacy, Matt Hedges

2023-01-16T18:23:05-04:00

I am responding to many portions of the article, “New Testament Contradictions” by Paul Carlson (The Secular Web, 1995). His words will be in blue. The numbers in red are my own (for numbering the alleged “contradictions” that I reply to).

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Editor’s note: As with all lists of alleged biblical contradictions, there will be disagreement in at least some specific cases as to whether a given “contradiction” is a genuine contradiction. It is therefore up to the reader to decide for him/herself whether to accept that a listed “contradiction” is, in fact, a genuine contradiction.

I agree that sometimes reasonable folks can disagree about the presence of a contradiction in some complex cases. But reasonable folks ought also never bring up an alleged “contradiction” that is clearly not a contradiction by any stretch of the imagination, according to the well-established rules of logic. Many such faux– / pseudo-“contradictions” are present in any atheist “laundry list” of proposed biblical contradictions that I have ever seen, including this present one. Shame on those who promulgate them. It’s weak, shoddy thinking, period.

1) I. THE BIRTH OF JESUS

A. THE GENEALOGIES OF JOSEPH

Matthew and Luke disagree

Matthew and Luke give two contradictory genealogies for Joseph (Matthew 1:2-17 and Luke 3:23-38). They cannot even agree on who the father of Joseph was. Church apologists try to eliminate this discrepancy by suggesting that the genealogy in Luke is actually Mary’s, even though Luke says explicitly that it is Joseph’s genealogy (Luke 3:23). Christians have had problems reconciling the two genealogies since at least the early fourth century.

See:

Reply to Atheist Jonathan MS Pearce: “Contradictory” Genealogies of Christ? [7-27-17]

Are the Two Genealogies of Christ Contradictory? [National Catholic Register, 1-5-19]

2) Why do only Matthew and Luke know of the virgin birth?

Of all the writers of the New Testament, only Matthew and Luke mention the virgin birth. Had something as miraculous as the virgin birth actually occurred, one would expect that Mark and John would have at least mentioned it in their efforts to convince the world that Jesus was who they were claiming him to be.

Arguments from “expectation” or plausibility are not, strictly speaking, the same as establishing a logical contradiction. This is the argument from silence, too, which is always weak in and of itself. Two Gospels mentioning it is more than enough. The other two didn’t. But who cares? Why must all four mention any particular thing? They all have to do with Jesus and His life. That is what anyone should “expect” to see in them. Details and absences and inclusions can differ in innumerable ways.

3) The apostle Paul never mentions the virgin birth, even though it would have strengthened his arguments in several places. Instead, where Paul does refer to Jesus’ birth, he says that Jesus “was born of the seed of David” (Romans 1:3) and was “born of a woman,” not a virgin (Galatians 4:4).

J. Warner Wallace answers:

We need to be very careful about drawing conclusions from silence. Paul may not have mentioned the virgin conception simply because it was widely understood or assumed. Paul may also have been silent because it was not the focus or purpose of his letters (which are often devoted to issues related to the Church). Remember that Paul was a contemporary of Luke (who was one of the two authors who wrote extensively about the conception of Jesus). Paul appears to be very familiar with Luke’s’ gospel (he quotes Luke in 1 Timothy 5:17-18 and 1 Corinthians 11:23-26). (“Why Didn’t Paul Mention The Virgin Conception?”, Cold-Case Christianity, 12-14-18)

As to the two Pauline passages mentioned, see this same excellent article for a reply.

4) Why did Matthew include four women in Joseph’s genealogy?

Matthew mentions four women in the Joseph’s genealogy.

a. Tamar – disguised herself as a harlot to seduce Judah, her father-in-law (Genesis 38:12-19).

b. Rahab – was a harlot who lived in the city of Jericho in Canaan (Joshua 2:1).

c. Ruth – at her mother-in-law Naomi’s request, she came secretly to where Boaz was sleeping and spent the night with him. Later Ruth and Boaz were married (Ruth 3:1-14).

d. Bathsheba – became pregnant by King David while she was still married to Uriah (2 Samuel 11:2-5). . . . 

That all four of the women mentioned are guilty of some sort of sexual impropriety cannot be a coincidence. Why would Matthew mention these, and only these, women? The only reason that makes any sense is that Joseph, rather than the Holy Spirit, impregnated Mary prior to their getting married, and that this was known by others who argued that because of this Jesus could not be the Messiah. By mentioning these women in the genealogy Matthew is in effect saying, “The Messiah, who must be a descendant of King David, will have at least four “loose women” in his genealogy, so what difference does one more make?”

Taylor Halverson replies:

Because of Mary, the mother of Jesus.

Mary was an unusual mother. Found to be pregnant before she was married, she could have easily been outcast, thrown into slavery, or executed. She could have lived her life with terrible accusations thrown against her, and according to some ancient traditions, many people did think she was nothing more than an immoral harlot. And if so, such ancient critics reasoned, how could God ever do any good through someone so fallen, so morally compromised?

This is where the four women of Matthew’s genealogy answer the critics: Tamar (daughter-in-law to Judah), Rachab (the Jericho prostitute), Ruth (the non-Israelite Moabite), and Bathsheba (the woman unlawfully taken by David). Not only are each of these women ancestresses to Jesus, but each of them came from unusual, unexpected circumstances or were involved in what appears to be sexually improper situations. (“Why Are Four Women Mentioned in the Genealogy of Matthew 1?”, 1-10-19)

5) To have women mentioned in a genealogy is very unusual.

Not really. Bible scholar Dr. Funlola Olojede comments:

In an essay entitled Observations on women in the genealogies of 1 Chronicles 1-9, [1] Ben Zvi (2006:174-184) already noted that the genealogical section of the book of Chronicles refers to more than fifty different women, whether named or unnamed. [2] The study classifies the women into two categories based on their roles. The first category includes women involved “in lineage roles often associated with female members of an ancient household”. These include the roles of mother-wife (e.g., the daughter of Machir who married Hezron and gave birth to Segub in 1 Chron 2:1); mother-concubine (e.g., Ephah, Caleb’s concubine and the mother of his sons in 1 Chron 2:46); mother-divorcee (e.g., 1 Chron 8:8-11); daughter-in-law-mother (e.g., 1 Chron 2:4), and identity as daughter or sister (e.g., 1 Chron 3:2, 5; 4:18).

The second group consists of “women in roles that were commonly assigned to mature males in the society” (Ben Zvi 2006:184-186). These include women who were heads of families (e.g., Zeruiah and Abigail in 1 Chron 2:16-17), and women who built cities (the only instance in this category was Sheerah). (“Chronicler’s women – a holistic appraisal”, Acta Theologica, January 2013)

6) B. THE ANGEL’S MESSAGE

In Matthew, the angel appears to Joseph in a dream and tells him that Mary’s child will save his people from their sins. In Luke, the angel tells Mary that her son will be great, he will be called the Son of the Most High and will rule on David’s throne forever. A short time later Mary tells Elizabeth that all generations will consider her (Mary) blessed because of the child that will be born to her.

It’s simply two different messages, to two people for two different reasons. There is no “requirement” that they be exactly the same.

7) If this were true, Mary and Joseph should have had the highest regard for their son. Instead, we read in Mark 3:20-21 that Jesus’ family tried to take custody of him because they thought he had lost his mind.

This is untrue. As I have pointed out, the family was trying to rescue Jesus from the people claiming that he had lost his mind. See:

Mark 3:21-22 (RSV, as throughout) And when his family heard it, they went out to seize him, for people were saying, “He is beside himself.” [22] And the scribes who came down from Jerusalem said, “He is possessed by Be-el’zebul, and by the prince of demons he casts out the demons.” (cf. Jn 10:20-21)

For further reading, see:

Jesus’ “Brothers” Were “Unbelievers”? (Jason also claims that “Mary believed in Jesus,” but wavered, and had a “sort of inconsistent faith”) (vs. Jason Engwer) [5-27-20]

Dialogue on Whether Jesus’ Kinfolk Were “Unbelievers” (vs. Dr. Lydia McGrew) [5-28-20]

Did the Blessed Virgin Mary Think Jesus Was Nuts? [7-2-20]

Seidensticker Folly #50: Mary Thought Jesus Was Crazy? (And Does the Gospel of Mark Radically Differ from the Other Gospels in the “Family vs. Following Jesus” Aspect?) [9-8-20]

Jason Engwer and a Supposedly Sinful Mary (Doubting Jesus’ Sanity? / Inconsiderate (?) Young Jesus in the Temple / “Woman” and the Wedding at Cana) [11-16-20]

8) And later, in Mark 6:4-6 Jesus complained that he received no honor among his own relatives and his own household.

Mark 6:4 And Jesus said to them, “A prophet is not without honor, except in his own country, and among his own kin, and in his own house.”

The context is Jesus visiting His hometown of Nazareth, where He was mistreated and disbelieved. Jesus is not merely talking about Himself, nor is it either a complaint or pique at not being honored. Rather, he was offering a proverbial observation, with a long sad history of fulfillment in Jewish history (which now included His own rejection):

Matthew 23:34-35 Therefore I send you prophets and wise men and scribes, some of whom you will kill and crucify, and some you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from town to town, [35] that upon you may come all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of innocent Abel to the blood of Zechari’ah the son of Barachi’ah, whom you murdered between the sanctuary and the altar. (cf. Lk 11:49-51)

Acts 7:51-52 “You stiff-necked people, uncircumcised in heart and ears, you always resist the Holy Spirit. As your fathers did, so do you. [52] Which of the prophets did not your fathers persecute? And they killed those who announced beforehand the coming of the Righteous One, whom you have now betrayed and murdered,” [St. Stephen speaking, just before he himself was martyred] (cf. 1 Kgs 18:13; Neh 9:26)

Hebrews 11:36-38 Others suffered mocking and scourging, and even chains and imprisonment. [37] They were stoned, they were sawn in two [thought to be the fate of the prophet Isaiah], they were killed with the sword; they went about in skins of sheep and goats, destitute, afflicted, ill-treated — [38] of whom the world was not worthy — wandering over deserts and mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth.

He taught (or predicted) the same thing to His own disciples: generalizing about all Christians:

Matthew 10:21 Brother will deliver up brother to death, and the father his child, and children will rise against parents and have them put to death; (cf. Mk 13:12)

Matthew 10:36 and a man’s foes will be those of his own household.

Luke 12:52-53 for henceforth in one house there will be five divided, three against two and two against three; [53] they will be divided, father against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against her mother, mother-in-law against her daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law.”

9) C. THE DATE

According to Matthew, Jesus was born during the reign of Herod the Great (Matthew 2:1). According to Luke, Jesus was born during the first census in Israel, while Quirinius was governor of Syria (Luke 2:2). This is impossible because Herod died in March of 4 BC and the census took place in 6 and 7 AD, about 10 years after Herod’s death.

Some Christians try to manipulate the text to mean this was the first census while Quirinius was governor and that the first census of Israel recorded by historians took place later. However, the literal meaning is “this was the first census taken, while Quirinius was governor …” In any event, Quirinius did not become governor of Syria until well after Herod’s death.

See:

The Census, Jesus’ Birth in Bethlehem, & History [2-3-11]

“The Lukan Census” (Glenn Miller, A Christian Thinktank, Sep. 2014)

“Miller vs Carrier on the Lukan Census” (J. P. Holding, Tekton Apologetics)

“Some Neglected Evidence Relevant To The Census Of Luke 2” (+ Part 2 / Part 3 / Part 4 / Part 5 / Part 6) (Jason Engwer, Trialblogue, 12-12-07)

“Is Luke’s Census Historical?” (Jason Engwer, Trialblogue, 8-19-10)

10) D. THE PLACE

Both Matthew and Luke say that Jesus was born in Bethlehem. Matthew quotes Micah 5:2 to show that this was in fulfillment of prophecy. Actually, Matthew misquotes Micah (compare Micah 5:2 to Matthew 2:6). Although this misquote is rather insignificant, Matthew’s poor understanding of Hebrew will have great significance later in his gospel.

Luke has Mary and Joseph travelling from their home in Nazareth in Galilee to Bethlehem in Judea for the birth of Jesus (Luke 2:4). Matthew, in contradiction to Luke, says that it was only after the birth of Jesus that Mary and Joseph resided in Nazareth, and then only because they were afraid to return to Judea (Matthew 2:21-23).

In order to have Jesus born in Bethlehem, Luke says that everyone had to go to the city of their birth to register for the census. This is absurd, and would have caused a bureaucratic nightmare. The purpose of the Roman census was for taxation, and the Romans were interested in where the people lived and worked, not where they were born (which they could have found out by simply asking rather than causing thousands of people to travel).

For the reply, see the last-mentioned paper of mine and also:

Reply to Atheist Jonathan MS Pearce: Bethlehem & Nazareth “Contradictions” (Including Extensive Exegetical Analysis of Micah 5:2) [7-28-17]

“Do the ‘Infancy Narratives’ of Matthew and Luke Contradict Each Other?” (Tim Staples, Catholic Answers Magazine, 11-21-14)

“Do the Infancy Narratives Contradict?” (Steven O’Keefe,  ACTS Apologist Blog, 11-21-14)

“Are the Infancy Narratives Historically Reliable?” (Joe Heschmeyer, Shameless Popery, 11-17-11)

“How the accounts of Jesus’ childhood fit together: 6 things to know and share” (Jimmy Akin, National Catholic Register, 2-20-14)

“Why Are The Infancy Narratives So Different?” (Jason Engwer, Trialblogue, 11-19-06)

“The Nativity Stories Harmonized” (J. P. Holding, Tekton Apologetics)

“Miller vs Carrier on the Lukan Census” (J. P. Holding, Tekton Apologetics)

“Jesus’ Birthplace (Part 1): Early Interest And Potential Sources” (Jason Engwer, Trialblogue, 12-15-06)

“Sources For The Infancy Narratives” (Jason Engwer, Trialblogue, 11-12-06)

“Were The Infancy Narratives Meant To Convey History?” (Jason Engwer, Trialblogue, 11-11-06)

“Agreement Between Matthew And Luke About Jesus’ Childhood” (Jason Engwer, Trialblogue, 11-30-13)

“Jesus’ Childhood Outside The Infancy Narratives” (Jason Engwer, Trialblogue, 12-9-13)

“Evidence For The Bethlehem Birthplace” (Jason Engwer, Trialblogue, 12-5-12)

11) E. THE PROPHECIES

Matthew says that the birth of Jesus and the events following it fulfilled several Old Testament prophecies. These prophecies include:

1. The virgin birth (Isaiah 7:14)

This verse is part of a prophecy that Isaiah relates to King Ahaz regarding the fate of the two kings threatening Judah at that time and the fate of Judah itself. In the original Hebrew, the verse says that a “young woman” will give birth, not a “virgin” which is an entirely different Hebrew word. The young woman became a virgin only when the Hebrew word was mistranslated into Greek.

This passage obviously has nothing to do with Jesus (who, if this prophecy did apply to him, should have been named Immanuel instead of Jesus).

See:

Reply to Atheist Jonathan MS Pearce: “Mistranslation” of “Virgin”? (Isaiah 7:14) (with Glenn Miller) [7-26-17]

Dual Fulfillment of Prophecy & the Virgin Birth (vs. JMS Pearce) [12-18-20]

12) 2. The “slaughter of the innocents” (Jeremiah 31:15)

Matthew says that Herod, in an attempt to kill the newborn Messiah, had all the male children two years old and under put to death in Bethlehem and its environs, and that this was in fulfillment of prophecy.

This is a pure invention on Matthew’s part. Herod was guilty of many monstrous crimes, including the murder of several members of his own family. However, ancient historians such as Josephus, who delighted in listing Herod’s crimes, do not mention what would have been Herod’s greatest crime by far. It simply didn’t happen.

See:

“The Slaughter of the Innocents: Historical or Not?” (J. P. Holding, Tekton Apologetics)

“Is The Slaughter Of The Innocents Historical?” (Jason Engwer, Trialblogue, 8-18-10)

“Herod’s Slaughter of the Children / The Return from Egypt” (Glenn Miller, A Christian Thinktank)

13) The context of Jeremiah 31:15 makes it clear that the weeping is for the Israelites about to be taken into exile in Babylon, and has nothing to do with slaughtered children hundreds of years later.

Carlson doesn’t understand frequent dual application of prophecies in Scripture.

14) 3. Called out of Egypt (Hosea 11:1)

Matthew has Mary, Joseph and Jesus fleeing to Egypt to escape Herod, and says that the return of Jesus from Egypt was in fulfillment of prophecy (Matthew 2:15). However, Matthew quotes only the second half of Hosea 11:1. The first half of the verse makes it very clear that the verse refers to God calling the Israelites out of Egypt in the exodus led by Moses, and has nothing to do with Jesus.

Dual application of prophecies in Scripture again . . . If an atheist or other sort of skeptic doesn’t grasp this aspect of the Bible, they will continue to make the same dumbfounded mistake over and over.

As further proof that the slaughter of the innocents and the flight into Egypt never happened, one need only compare the Matthew and Luke accounts of what happened between the time of Jesus’ birth and the family’s arrival in Nazareth. According to Luke, forty days (the purification period) after Jesus was born, his parents brought him to the temple, made the prescribed sacrifice, and returned to Nazareth. Into this same time period Matthew somehow manages to squeeze: the visit of the Magi to Herod, the slaughter of the innocents and the flight into Egypt, the sojourn in Egypt, and the return from Egypt. All of this action must occur in the forty day period because Matthew has the Magi visit Jesus in Bethlehem before the slaughter of the innocents.

See the many related articles under #10 above.

15)  Matthew made a colossal blunder later in his gospel which leaves no doubt at all as to which of the above possibilities is true. His blunder involves what is known as Jesus’ triumphant entry into Jerusalem riding on a donkey (if you believe Mark, Luke or John) or riding on two donkeys (if you believe Matthew). In Matthew 21:1-7, two animals are mentioned in three of the verses, so this cannot be explained away as a copying error. And Matthew has Jesus riding on both animals at the same time, for verse 7 literally says, “on them he sat.”

Why does Matthew have Jesus riding on two donkeys at the same time? Because he misread Zechariah 9:9 which reads in part, “mounted on a donkey, and on a colt, the foal of a donkey.”

Anyone familiar with Old Testament Hebrew would know that the word translated “and” in this passage does not indicate another animal but is used in the sense of “even” (which is used in many translations) for emphasis. The Old Testament often uses parallel phrases which refer to the same thing for emphasis, but Matthew was evidently not familiar with this usage. Although the result is rather humorous, it is also very revealing. It demonstrates conclusively that Matthew created events in Jesus’ life to fulfill Old Testament prophecies, even if it meant creating an absurd event. Matthew’s gospel is full of fulfilled prophecies. Working the way Matthew did, and believing as the church does in “future contexts,” any phrase in the Bible could be turned into a fulfilled prophecy!

See:

David Madison vs. the Gospel of Mark #10: Chapter 11 (Two Donkeys? / Fig Tree / Moneychangers) [8-20-19]

16) A. WHAT DID JOHN THE BAPTIST KNOW ABOUT JESUS AND WHEN DID HE KNOW IT?

John’s first encounter with Jesus was while both of them were still in their mothers’ wombs, at which time John, apparently recognizing his Saviour, leaped for joy (Luke 1:44). Much later, while John is baptizing, he refers to Jesus as “the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world”, and “the Son of God” (John 1:29,36). Later still, John is thrown in prison from which he does not return alive. John’s definite knowledge of Jesus as the son of God and saviour of the world is explicitly contradicted by Luke 7:18-23 in which the imprisoned John sends two of his disciples to ask Jesus, “Are you the one who is coming, or do we look for someone else?”

See:

Seidensticker Folly #27: Confusion Re John the Baptist [10-9-18]

17) B. WHY DID JOHN BAPTIZE JESUS?

John baptized for repentance (Matthew 3:11). Since Jesus was supposedly without sin, he had nothing to repent of. The fact that he was baptized by John has always been an embarrassment to the church. The gospels offer no explanation for Jesus’ baptism, apart from the meaningless explanation given in Matthew 3:14-15 “to fulfill all righteousness.”

Catholic writer Kirsten Andersen explains:

Since Jesus didn’t have any sins that needed forgiving (original or otherwise), was already fully himself and fully God’s son and had no need of salvation, baptism would seem redundant . . .

So what’s the deal? Why did Jesus insist on receiving baptism from John, even though John himself flat-out objected, arguing that it was Jesus who should baptize him?

The easy answer is that Jesus was simply setting the example for his followers. “WWJD” bracelets may be out-of-fashion and clichéd, but they do express the rather profound truth that as long as we keep our eyes on Jesus, and do what he showed us how to do in both word and deed, salvation can be ours. . . .

[T]he baptism Jesus received from John wasn’t the same sacrament we celebrate today. How could it have been? Jesus had not yet established his Church, so the sacraments didn’t exist yet. The “baptisms” John performed were actually ritual washings (mikveh/pl. mikvaot) given to converting and reverting Jews, symbolizing the death of one’s old, sinful self, and rebirth as a ritually clean Jew.

Mikvaot were commonly performed to cleanse Jews of any sins and ritual impurities before presenting themselves at the temple, . . . (“If Jesus Was Sinless, Why Did He Need to Be Baptized?,” Aleteia, 1-8-16)

For more on this question, see the appropriate section in:

David Madison vs. the Gospel of Mark #2: Chapter 1 (Why Did Mark Omit Jesus’ Baptism? / Why Was Jesus Baptized? / “Suffering Servant” & Messiah in Isaiah / Spiritual “Kingdom of God” / Archaeological Support) [8-14-19]

18) Other passages, which indicate that Jesus did not consider himself sinless, are also an embarrassment to the church (Mark 10:18, Luke 18:19)

Right. We’re all embarrassed to death. [sarcasm] but I certainly am embarrassed about how ridiculous atheists arguments about “contradictions” are. I would know, having dealt with them hundreds of times by now. Let’s take a look at this nonsense:

Mark 10:18 And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone.” (cf. Lk 18:19)

This was merely a rhetorical retort by Jesus: employing socratic method, as He often did. It has no implication that He Himself was sinful. Besides, He’s saying that God is uniquely good (knowing that this person didn’t think or believe that He was God), while massively asserting many other times that He Himself is God: and this includes many instances in the synoptic Gospels, too. Jesus states in John 8:46: “Which of you convicts me of sin?”

19) Luke, who claims to be chronological (Luke 1:3), tries to give the impression that John did not baptize Jesus. Luke’s account of Jesus’ baptism occurs after the account of John’s imprisonment (Luke 3:20-21).

He does no such thing.

Luke 3:21-22 Now when all the people were baptized, and when Jesus also had been baptized and was praying, the heaven was opened, [22] and the Holy Spirit descended upon him in bodily form, as a dove, and a voice came from heaven, “Thou art my beloved Son; with thee I am well pleased.”

Exact, literal chronology was viewed very differently by the Jews than it is by Greek-dominated western thought. So the order here means little. I deal with this issue at length in #79 of my paper, Refuting 59 of Michael Alter’s Resurrection “Contradictions” [3-12-21] and in these two articles:

Genesis Contradictory (?) Creation Accounts & Hebrew Time: Refutation of a Clueless Atheist “Biblical Contradiction” [5-11-17]

The Genesis Creation Accounts and Hebrew Time [National Catholic Register, 7-2-17]

Luke is clearly reflecting other accounts of Jesus’ baptism by referring to the Holy Spirit symbolized as a dove, and God the Father saying He was pleased. Yet Carlson ludicrously claims: Luke . . . tries to give the impression that John did not baptize Jesus.” Will this folly ever end? It is humorous to observe but also sad and tragic, because many people are taken in by this sort of ignorant nonsense and even lose their faith over it.

20) C. WHY DIDN’T JOHN THE BAPTIST BECOME A FOLLOWER OF JESUS?

If John knew that Jesus was the son of God, why didn’t he become a disciple of Jesus? And why didn’t all, or even most, of John’s disciples become Jesus’ disciples? 

John did indeed become Jesus’ follower:

John 3:28-30 You yourselves bear me witness, that I said, I am not the Christ, but I have been sent before him. [29] He who has the bride is the bridegroom; the friend of the bridegroom, who stands and hears him, rejoices greatly at the bridegroom’s voice; therefore this joy of mine is now full. [30] He must increase, but I must decrease.”

Matthew 3:11 I baptize you with water for repentance, but he who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry; he will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire. (cf. Mk 1:7-8)

John’s role was as a prototype of Elijah: the one who came before Christ:

Dialogue w Agnostic on Elijah and John the Baptist [9-24-06]

The gospel writers were forced to include Jesus’ baptism in their gospels so that they could play it down. They could not ignore it because John’s followers and other Jews who knew of Jesus’ baptism were using the fact of his baptism to challenge the idea that Jesus was the sinless son of God. The gospel writers went to great pains to invent events that showed John as being subordinate to Jesus.

Most of John’s disciples remained loyal to him, even after his death, and a sect of his followers persisted for centuries.

There could be such a thing as devotees of John, just as their are various orders in the Catholic Church. But it would be understood that it was a brand of Christianity, and that Jesus was Lord and Messiah, and John the forerunner who announced him, but was much lesser than him (as he himself said), and the last prophet in the Old Testament sense. No problem.

21) III. THE LAST SUPPER

A. WHEN – BEFORE OR DURING PASSOVER?

In Matthew, Mark and Luke the last supper takes place on the first day of the Passover (Matthew 26:17, Mark 14:12, Luke 22:7). In John’s gospel it takes place a day earlier and Jesus is crucified on the first day of the Passover (John 19:14).

See an article by Fr. William P. Saunders on the Catholic Straight Answers site, and Jimmy Akin: “Was the Last Supper a Passover Meal?”

22) C. JUDAS ISCARIOT

It is very unclear in the gospels just what Judas Iscariot’s betrayal consisted of, probably because there was absolutely no need for a betrayal. Jesus could have been arrested any number of times without the general populace knowing about it. It would have been simple to keep tabs on his whereabouts. The religious authorities did not need a betrayal – only the gospel writers needed a betrayal, so that a few more “prophecies” could be fulfilled. The whole episode is pure fiction – and, as might be expected, it is riddled with contradictions.

Of course there is no way to prove any of this nonsense. If there were, surely atheists like Carlson would make their arguments along those lines, but they usually don’t. They merely assert fanciful scenarios out of their own over-abundant imaginations. As I’ve noted many times, bald assertion is not argument. It assumes what it’s trying to prove (which is circular reasoning).

23) 1. The prophecy

Matthew says that Judas’ payment and death were prophesied by Jeremiah, and then he quotes Zechariah 11:12-13 as proof!

See:

Seidensticker Folly #53: Matthew Cited the Wrong Prophet? [9-11-20]

24) 2. Thirty pieces of silver

According to Matthew 26:15, the chief priests “weighed out thirty pieces of silver” to give to Judas. There are two things wrong with this:

a. There were no “pieces of silver” used as currency in Jesus’ time – they had gone out of circulation about 300 years before.

Really? The Roman denarius was, according to the Wikipedia article it was “the standard Roman silver coin from its introduction in the Second Punic War c. 211 BC[1] to the reign of Gordian III (AD 238–244), . . .” It was in use in Israel. The same article states:

In the New Testament, the gospels refer to the denarius as a day’s wage for a common laborer (Matthew 20:2,[21] John 12:5).[22] . . . The denarius is also mentioned in the Parable of the Good Samaritan (Luke 10:25–37). The Render unto Caesar passage in Matthew 22:15–22 and Mark 12:13–17 uses the word (δηνάριον) to describe the coin held up by Jesus, translated in the King James Bible as “tribute penny“. It is commonly thought to be a denarius with the head of Tiberius.

International Standard Bible Encyclopedia (“Coins”) adds:

The coins of Tyre and Sidon, both silver and copper, must have circulated largely in Palestine on account of the intimate commercial relations between the Jews and Phoenicians (for examples, see under MONEY). After the advent of the Romans the local coinage was restricted chiefly to the series of copper coins, such as the mites mentioned in the New Testament, the silver denarii being struck mostly at Rome, but circulating wherever the Romans went.

But Bible commentators appear to usually hold that silver shekels were being referred to:

15covenanted with him] Rather, weighed out for him; either literally or= “paid him.”

thirty pieces of silver] i. e. thirty silver shekels. St Matthew alone names the sum, which= 120 denarii. The shekel is sometimes reckoned at three shillings, but for the real equivalent in English money see note on Matthew 26:7. Thirty shekels was the price of a slave (Exodus 21:32); a fact which gives force to our Lord’s words, Matthew 20:28, “The Son of man came … to minister (to be a slave), and to give his life a ransom for many.” (Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges)

Matthew refers to Zechariah 11:12. These pieces were shekels of the sanctuary, of standard weight, and therefore heavier than the ordinary shekel. See on Matthew 17:24. Reckoning the Jerusalem shekel at seventy-two cents, the sum would be twenty-one dollars and sixty cents. (Vincent’s Word Studies)

So there definitely were silver coins in ancient Israel during Jesus’ time. They may have been in the minority of all coinage, but all we need is to show that they existed, for this biblical assertion to be historical. And the above documentation certainly does that. To claim thatthey had gone out of circulation about 300 years before” is an unwarranted falsehood.

25) b. In Jesus’ time, minted coins were used – currency was not “weighed out.”

By using phrases that made sense in Zechariah’s time but not in Jesus’ time Matthew once again gives away the fact that he creates events in his gospel to match “prophecies” he finds in the Old Testament.

Coined money was in use, but the shekels may have been weighed out in antique fashion by men careful to do an iniquitous thing in the most orthodox way. Or there may have been no weighing in the case, but only the use of an ancient form of speech after the practice had become obsolete . . . (Expositor’s Greek Testament)

As to the latter practice, we do that today in English in many ways. The article, “12 Old Words That Survived by Getting Fossilized in Idioms” (Arika Okrent, Mental Floss.com, 11-4-15; updated 7-5-19) provides four examples:

EKE

If we see eke at all these days, it’s when we “eke out” a living, but it comes from an old verb meaning to add, supplement, or grow. It’s the same word that gave us eke-name for “additional name,” which later, through misanalysis of “an eke-name” became nickname. . . .

ROUGHSHOD

Nowadays we see this word in the expression “to run/ride roughshod” over somebody or something, meaning to tyrannize or treat harshly. It came about as a way to describe the 17th century version of snow tires. A “rough-shod” horse had its shoes attached with protruding nail heads in order to get a better grip on slippery roads. It was great for keeping the horse on its feet, but not so great for anyone the horse might step on. . . .

FRO

The fro in “to and fro” is a fossilized remnant of a Northern English or Scottish way of pronouncing from. It was also part of other expressions that didn’t stick around, like “fro and till,” “to do fro” (to remove), and “of or fro” (for or against). . . .

LURCH

When you leave someone “in the lurch,” you leave them in a jam, in a difficult position. But while getting left in the lurch may leave you staggering around and feeling off-balance, the lurch in this expression has a different origin than the staggery one. The balance-related lurch comes from nautical vocabulary, while the lurch you get left in comes from an old French backgammon-style game called lourche. Lurch became a general term for the situation of beating your opponent by a huge score. By extension, it came to stand for the state of getting the better of someone or cheating them.

Likewise, with the payment to Judas, it may be a case where for centuries coinage based on weight of silver, gold, or copper was weighed out, so that in order to ascertain or measure an exact amount, the coins were weighed. This saying of “weighing out” would then have remained after coins had a definite numerical amount, and was simply synonymous with “counting” except that the older method was still referred to by habit.

26) 3. Who bought the Field of Blood?

a. In Matthew 27:7 the chief priests buy the field.

b. In Acts 1:18 Judas buys the field.

E. W. Bullinger adequately explained seeming but not actual contradiction this in his Companion Bible.

27) 4. How did Judas die?

a. In Matthew 27:5 Judas hangs himself.

b. In Acts 1:18 he bursts open and his insides spill out.

See:

Death of Judas: Alleged Bible Contradictions Debunked (vs. Dave Van Allen and Dr. Jim Arvo) [9-27-07]

28) c. According to the apostle Paul, neither of the above is true. Paul says Jesus appeared to “the twelve” after his resurrection. Mark 14:20 makes it clear that Judas was one of the twelve.

In Matthew 19:28, Jesus tells the twelve disciples, including Judas, that when Jesus rules from his throne, they will sit on twelve thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Protestant apologist Eric Lyons provides the rebuttal:

Numerous alleged Bible discrepancies arise because skeptics frequently interpret figurative language in a literal fashion. They treat God’s Word as if it were a dissertation on the Pythagorean theorem rather than a book written using ordinary language. . . . The simple solution to this numbering “problem” is that “the twelve” to which Paul referred was not a literal number, but the designation of an office. This term is used merely “to point out the society of the apostles, who, though at this time they were only eleven, were still called the twelve, because this was their original number, and a number which was afterward filled up” (Clarke, 1996). Gordon Fee stated that Paul’s use of the term “twelve” in 1 Corinthians 15:5 “is a clear indication that in the early going this was a title given to the special group of twelve whom Jesus called to ‘be with him’ (Mark 3:14).

This figurative use of numbers is just as common in English vernacular as it was in the ancient languages. In certain collegiate sports, one can refer to the Big Ten conference, which consists of 14 teams, or the Atlantic Ten conference, which is also made up of 14 teams. At one time, these conferences only had ten teams, but when they exceeded that number, they kept their original conference “names.” Their names are a designation for a particular conference, not a literal number.

In 1884, the term “two-by-four” was coined to refer to a piece of lumber two-by-four inches. Interestingly, a two-by-four still is called a two-by-four, even though today it is trimmed to slightly smaller dimensions (1 5/8 by 3 5/8). Again, the numbers are more of a designation than a literal number.

Biblical use of “the twelve” as a designation for the original disciples is strongly indicated in many Gospel passages. Jesus Himself did this: “Did I not choose you, the twelve . . .?” (Jn 6:70). He didn’t say, “did I not choose you twelve men.” By saying, “the twelve” in the way He did, it’s proven that it was a [not always literal] title for the group. Hence, John refers to “Thomas, one of the twelve” after Judas departed, and before he was replaced by Matthias (Jn 20:24). Paul simply continues the same practice. It was also used because “twelve” was an important number in biblical thinking (40 and 70 are two other such numbers). For a plain and undeniable example of this, see Revelation 21:12, 14, 21.

29) 5. How did the Field of Blood get its name?

a. Matthew says because it was purchased with blood money (Matthew 27:6-8).

b. Acts says because of the bloody mess caused by Judas’ bursting open (Acts 1:18-19).

It’s not one field, but two being referred to, as E. W. Bullinger explained, adding:

In addition to all the above, the two pieces of land were respectively called “agros of blood” (Matthew 27:8) and “chorion of blood” (Acts 1:19) for different reasons. Indeed, the “agros of blood” that the chief priests bought was called like this because it was bought with the “price of blood” (Matthew 27:7, 9) i.e. with the thirty pieces of silver paid for the blood of the Lord Jesus Christ. However, the “chorion of blood” that Judas bought was called like this because Judas committed suicide there (Acts 1:19).

30) 1. Where was Jesus taken immediately after his arrest?

a. Matthew, Mark and Luke say that Jesus was taken directly to the high priest (Matthew 26:57, Mark 14:53 and Luke 22:54).

b. John says that Jesus was taken first to Annas, the father-in-law of the high priest (John 18:13) who, after an indeterminate period of time, sent Jesus to the high priest (John 18:24). . . . 

d. John mentions only the high priest – no other priests or scribes play a role in questioning Jesus.

John reports that Jesus was first questioned by Annas: “the father-in-law of Ca’iaphas, who was high priest that year” (Jn 18:13), who “questioned Jesus about his disciples and his teaching ” (Jn 18:19). “Annas then sent him bound to Ca’iaphas the high priest” (18:24). Then “they [implied: the Sanhedrin] led Jesus from the house of Ca’iaphas to the praetorium [where Pilate was]” (18:28). And “They answered him, “If this man were not an evildoer, we would not have handed him over” (18:30). Note that Caiaphas was present at the judgment and “monkey trial” of the Sanhedrin, as indicated by Matthew 26:57, 62, Mark (not named, but mentioned as the “high priest”: 14:53-54, 60, 63, 66), and Luke (“high priest”: 22:54).

So it’s all the same overall story, told by four storytellers, with the expected differences in detail and emphases that we would expect in any four different accounts of the same incident. Matthew and John refer directly to Caiphas the high priest as being involved (Matthew mentions also the assembly, whereas John doesn’t (directly), but still indicates their presence by the two uses of “they” in describing the Jewish leaders leading Jesus to Pilate. Mark and Luke don’t name him, but note that the “high priest” was involved, which is no contradiction.

31) b. Pilate’s “custom” of releasing a prisoner at Passover.

This is pure invention – the only authority given by Rome to a Roman governor in situations like this was postponement of execution until after the religious festival. Release was out of the question. It is included in the gospels for the sole purpose of further removing blame for Jesus’ death from Pilate and placing it on the Jews.

According to The Expositor’s Bible Commentary, Frank E. Gaebelein, General Editor, c. 1984, Vol. 8, page 773f: “The custom referred to of releasing a prisoner at the Passover Feast is unknown outside the Gospels. It was, however, a Roman custom and could well have been a custom in Palestine. An example of a Roman official releasing a prisoner on the demands of the people occurs in the Papyrus Florentinus 61:59ff. There the Roman governor of Egypt, G. Septimus Vegetus, says to Phibion, the accused: ‘Thou has been worthy of scourging, but I will give thee to the people’.” (Release Barabbas! Did the Gospel Writers Make That Up”, Sam Harris, The John Ankerberg Show, 8-9-00)

32) Who put the robe on Jesus?

a. Matthew 27:28, Mark 15:17 and John 19:2 say that after Pilate had Jesus scourged and turned over to his soldiers to be crucified, the soldiers placed a scarlet or purple robe on Jesus as well as a crown of thorns.

b. Luke 23:11, in contradiction to Matthew, Mark and John, says that the robe was placed on Jesus much earlier by Herod and his soldiers. Luke mentions no crown of thorns.

See:

“Bible Contradiction? Who put the robe on Jesus?” (The Domain for Truth, 2-16-17)

33) Crucified between two robbers

Matthew 27:38 and Mark 15:27 say that Jesus was crucified between two robbers (Luke just calls them criminals; John simply calls them men). It is a historical fact that the Romans did not crucify robbers. Crucifixion was reserved for insurrectionists and rebellious slaves.

The following crimes entailed this penalty: piracy, highway robbery, assassination, forgery, false testimony, mutiny, high treason, rebellion (see Pauly-Wissowa, “Real-Encyc.” s.v. “Crux”; Josephus, “B. J.” v. 11, § 1). Soldiers that deserted to the enemy and slaves who denounced their masters (“delatio domini”)were also punished by death on the cross. (Jewish Encyclopedia, 1906, “Crucifixion”)

The crucifixion of robbers by the Romans is also verified with many ancient sources on pages 46-50 of the book, Crucifixion, by Martin Hengel, Fortress Press, 1977. But Carlson gives us no documentation. He simply asserts demonstrable falsehood. Atheists often do this, apparently thinking it is impressive. It ain’t.

34) Peter and Mary near the cross

When the gospel writers mention Jesus talking to his mother and to Peter from the cross, they run afoul of another historical fact – the Roman soldiers closely guarded the places of execution, and nobody was allowed near (least of all friends and family who might attempt to help the condemned person).

[C]rucifixion as a public means of execution served as an emphatic warning to onlookers. A quote ascribed to Quintillian explains that “when we [Romans] crucify criminals the most frequented roads are chosen, where the greatest number of people can look and be seized by this fear. For every punishment has less to do with the offense than with the example” (Decl., 274) (in The Governor and the KingIrony, Hidden Transcripts, and Negotiating Empire in the Fourth Gospel, by Arthur M. Wright, Jr., Wipf and Stock Publishers, 2019, see the quotation at Google Books)

Many movies about Jesus show Mary His mother and others including the apostle John right at the foot of the cross. If the tradition is to believed, where they actually stood was at least half a football field in distance away. I myself stood at the traditional spot in the Church of the Holy Sepulchre in Jerusalem in 2o14. The Bible doesn’t indicate exactly how close the lookers were. Luke 23:35 says they “stood by, watching.” Matthew 27:55 states: “There were also many women there, looking on from afar . . .” Mark 15:40 similarly describes it as “There were also women looking on from afar . . . John 19:25 uses the language of “standing by the cross of Jesus.” Once again, an alleges atheist biblical “contradiction” falls flat or sheer lack of substance, plausibility, and coherence.

35) The opened tombs

According to Matthew 27:51-53, at the moment Jesus died there was an earthquake that opened tombs and many people were raised from the dead. For some reason they stayed in their tombs until after Jesus was resurrected, at which time they went into Jerusalem and were seen by many people.

Here Matthew gets too dramatic for his own good. If many people came back to life and were seen by many people, it must have created quite a stir (even if the corpses were in pretty good shape!). Yet Matthew seems to be the only person aware of this happening – historians of that time certainly know nothing of it – neither do the other gospel writers.

See:

Seidensticker Folly #45: “Zombies” & Clueless Atheists (Atheist Neil Carter Joins in on the Silliness and Tomfoolery as Well) [8-29-20]

36-38) Who found the empty tomb?

a. According to Matthew 28:1, only “Mary Magdalene and the other Mary.”

b. According to Mark 16:1, “Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome.”

c. According to Luke 23:55, 24:1 and 24:10, “the women who had come with him out of Galilee.” Among these women were “Mary Magdalene and Joanna and Mary the mother of James.” Luke indicates in verse 24:10 that there were at least two others.

d. According to John 20:1-4, Mary Magdalene went to the tomb alone, saw the stone removed, ran to find Peter, and returned to the tomb with Peter and another disciple.

Who did they find at the tomb?

a. According to Matthew 28:2-4, an angel of the Lord with an appearance like lightning was sitting on the stone that had been rolled away. Also present were the guards that Pilate had contributed. On the way back from the tomb the women meet Jesus (Matthew 28:9).

b. According to Mark 16:5, a young man in a white robe was sitting inside the tomb.

c. According to Luke 24:4, two men in dazzling apparel. It is not clear if the men were inside the tomb or outside of it.

d. According to John 20:4-14, Mary and Peter and the other disciple initially find just an empty tomb. Peter and the other disciple enter the tomb and find only the wrappings. Then Peter and the other disciple leave and Mary looks in the tomb to find two angels in white. After a short conversation with the angels, Mary turns around to find Jesus.

Who did the women tell about the empty tomb?

a. According to Mark 16:8, “they said nothing to anyone.”

b. According to Matthew 28:8, they “ran to report it to His disciples.”

c. According to Luke 24:9, “they reported these things to the eleven and to all the rest.”

d. According to John 20:18, Mary Magdalene announces to the disciples that she has seen the Lord.

See:

Pearce’s Potshots #13: Resurrection “Contradictions” (?) [2-2-21]

Pearce’s Potshots #14: Resurrection “Contradictions” #2 [2-4-21]

Dialogue w Atheist on Post-Resurrection “Contradictions” [1-26-11]

Seidensticker Folly #18: Resurrection “Contradictions”? [9-17-18]

Seidensticker Folly #57: Male Witnesses of the Dead Jesus [9-14-20]

Refuting 59 of Michael Alter’s Resurrection “Contradictions” [3-12-21]

39) THE ASCENSION

According to Luke 24:51, Jesus’ ascension took place in Bethany, on the same day as his resurrection.

According to Acts 1:9-12, Jesus’ ascension took place at Mount Olivet, forty days after his resurrection.

See:

Seidensticker Folly #15: Jesus’ Ascension: One or 40 Days? [9-10-18]

40) NO SIGNS, ONE SIGN, OR MANY SIGNS?

At one point the Pharisees come to Jesus and ask him for a sign.

1. In Mark 8:12 Jesus says that “no sign shall be given to this generation.” . . . 

3. In contradiction to both Mark and Matthew, the gospel of John speaks of many signs that Jesus did:

a. The miracle of turning water into wine at the wedding in Cana is called the beginning (or first) of the signs that Jesus did (John 2:11).

b. The healing at Capernaum is the “second sign” (John 4:54).

c. Many people were following Jesus “because they were seeing the signs He was performing” (John 6:2).

This exhibits rank ignorance of Scripture (very common among anti-theist atheists). The difference (not a contradiction) has to do with willingness to believe vs. unwillingness. Jesus knew who would accept His signs and miracles and who would not. With people who did not and would not (usually the “scribes and Pharisees”), He refused to do miracles and signs. This is made clear in the Bible:

Mark 8:11-12 The Pharisees came and began to argue with him, seeking from him a sign from heaven, to test him. [12] And he sighed deeply in his spirit, and said, “Why does this generation seek a sign? Truly, I say to you, no sign shall be given to this generation.”

Matthew 12:39 But he answered them, “An evil and adulterous generation seeks for a sign; but no sign shall be given to it except the sign of the prophet Jonah.” (cf. 16:4)

In Jesus’ story of Lazarus and the rich man, He explains why sometimes it does no good to perform miracles:

Luke 16:27-31 And he said, `Then I beg you, father, to send him to my father’s house, [28] for I have five brothers, so that he may warn them, lest they also come into this place of torment.’ [29] But Abraham said, `They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.’ [30] And he said, `No, father Abraham; but if some one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ [31] He said to him, `If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be convinced if some one should rise from the dead.'”

This also, of course, foretold the widespread rejection of the miracle of His own Resurrection. Belief or willingness to accept the evidence of a miracle is also tied to Jesus’ willingness to do miracles:

Matthew 13:58 And he did not do many mighty works there, because of their unbelief.

With the common folk, it was entirely different, and so we also see a verse like John 6:2 above. Because the atheist hyper-critic refuses to acknowledge or understand these simple distinctions, all of a sudden we have yet another trumped-up, so-called contradiction where there is none at all. E for [futile] effort, though . . .

41) 2. In contradiction to Mark, in Matthew 12:39 Jesus says that only one sign would be given – the sign of Jonah. Jesus says that just as Jonah spent three days and three nights in the belly of the whale, so he will spend three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. Here Jesus makes an incorrect prediction – he only spends two nights in the tomb (Friday and Saturday nights), not three nights.

This is an old and stupid saw of atheist anti-Christian polemics, which exhibits an ignorance of ancient Near Eastern Semitic culture and certain expressions and the reckoning of time. I thoroughly refute it here:

“Three Days and Nights” in the Tomb: Contradiction? [10-31-06]

42) SON OF DAVID?

Matthew, Mark and Luke all contain passages which have Jesus quoting Psalm 110:1 to argue that the Messiah does not need to be a son of David (Matthew 22:41-46, Mark 12:35-37 and Luke 20:41-44).

1. This contradicts many Old Testament passages that indicate that the Messiah will be a descendant of David. It also contradicts official church doctrine.

2. In Acts 2:30-36 Peter, in what is regarded as the first Christian sermon, quotes Psalm 110:1 in arguing that Jesus was the Messiah, a descendant of David.

The Messiah (Jesus) was indeed the Son of David, which is why He accepted this title for Himself, and never rebuked or denied it (Mt 9:27; 15:22; 20:30-31; 21:9; Mk 10:47-48; Lk 18:38-39), and why St. Peter repeated this truth.

The falsehood involved here is thinking that the three passages first listed contradict this understanding. They do not, because they record a certain kind of socratic rhetoric that Jesus frequently used; not intended as a denial at all. The Bible commentaries cited below explain this, so as to get atheists woefully ignorant of biblical teaching and exegesis (and Hebrew literary figures of speech and rhetorical argumentation) up to speed:

“The Pharisees, having in the course of our Lord’s ministry proposed many difficult questions to him, with a view to try his prophetical gifts, he, in his turn, now that a body of them was gathered together, thought fit to make trial of their skill in the sacred writings. For this purpose he publicly asked their opinion of a difficulty concerning the Messiah’s pedigree, arising from Psalms 110 : What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? — Whose son do you expect the Messiah to be, who was promised to the fathers? They say unto him, The son of David — This was the common title of the Messiah in that day, which the scribes taught them to give him, from Psalm 89:35-36; and Isaiah 11:1.” He saith, How then doth David in spirit, rather, by the Spirit; that is, by inspiration; call him Lord — If he be merely the son, or descendant of David? if he be, as you suppose, the son of man, a mere man? “The doctors, it seems, did not look for any thing in their Messiah more excellent than the most exalted perfections of human nature; for, though they called him the Son of God, they had no notion that he was God, and so could offer no solution of the difficulty. Yet the latter question might have shown them their error. For if the Messiah was to be only a secular prince, as they supposed, ruling the men of his own time, he never could have been called Lord by persons who died before he was born; far less would so mighty a king as David, who also was his progenitor, have called him Lord. Wherefore, since he rules over, not the vulgar dead only of former ages, but even over the kings from whom he was himself descended, and his kingdom comprehends the men of all countries and times, past, present, and to come, the doctors, if they had thought accurately upon the subject, should have expected in their Messiah a king different from all other kings whatever. Besides, he is to sit at God’s right hand till his enemies are made the footstool of his feet; made thoroughly subject unto him. Numbers of Christ’s enemies are subjected to him in this life; and they who will not bow to him willingly, shall, like the rebellious subjects of other kingdoms, be reduced by punishment. Being constituted universal judge, all, whether friends or enemies, shall appear before his tribunal, where by the highest exercise of kingly power, he shall doom each to his unchangeable state.” And no man was able to answer him a word — None of them could offer the least shadow of a solution to the difficulty which he had proposed. Neither durst any man ask him any more questions — “The repeated proofs which he had given of the prodigious depth of his understanding, had impressed them with such an opinion of his wisdom, that they judged it impossible to insnare him in his discourse. For which reason they left off attempting it, and from that day forth troubled him no more with their insidious questions.” — Macknight. (Benson Commentary)

He had silenced his opponents, and opened profundities in Scripture hitherto unfathomed; he would now raise them to a higher theology; he would place before them a truth concerning the nature of the Messiah, which, if they received it, would lead them to accept him. It was as it were a last hope. He and the Pharisees had some common ground, which was wanting in the case of the Sadducees and Herodians (comp Acts 23:6); he would use this to support a last appeal. . . . He desires to win acceptance of his claims by the unanswerable argument of the Scripture which they revered; let them consider the exact meaning of a text often quoted, let them weigh each word with reverent care, and they would see that the predicted Messiah was not merely Son of David according to earthly descent, but was Jehovah himself; and that when he claimed to be Son of God, when he asserted, “I and my Father are one,” he was vindicating for himself only what the prophet had affirmed of the nature of the Christ. (Pulpit Commentary)

From the universally recognized title of the Messiah as the Son of David, which by His question He elicits from them, He takes occasion to shew them, who understood this title in a mere worldly political sense, the difficulty arising from David’s own reverence for this his Son: the solution lying in the incarnate Godhead of the Christ, of which they were ignorant. (Henry Alford’s Greek Testament Critical Exegetical Commentary)

43) THE FIG TREE

After Jesus’ triumphant entry into Jerusalem a sees a fig tree and wants some figs from it. He finds none on it so he curses the tree and it withers and dies (Matthew 21:18-20, Mark 11:12-14, 20-21).

1. Since this occurred in the early spring before Passover, it is ridiculous of Jesus to expect figs to be on the tree.

2. Matthew and Mark cannot agree on when the tree withered.

a. In Matthew, the tree withers at once and the disciples comment on this fact (Matthew 21:19-20).

b. In Mark, the tree is not found to be withered until at least the next day (Mark 11:20-21).

Apologist Kyle Butt offers a plausible explanation:

One prominent question naturally arises from a straightforward reading of the text. Why would Jesus curse a fig tree that did not have figs on it, especially since the text says that “it was not the season for figs”? In response to this puzzling question, skeptical minds have let themselves run wild with accusations regarding the passage. . . .

When Jesus approached the fig tree, the text indicates that the tree had plenty of leaves. R.K. Harrison, writing in the International Standard Bible Encyclopedia, explains that various kinds of figs grew in Palestine during the first century. One very important aspect of fig growth has to do with the relationship between the leaf and the fruit. Harrison notes that the tiny figs, known to the Arabs as taksh, “appear simultaneously in the leaf axils” (1982, 2:302) This taksh is edible and “is often gathered for sale in the markets” (2:302). Furthermore, the text notes: “When the young leaves are appearing in spring, every fertile fig will have some taksh on it…. But if a tree with leaves has no fruit, it will be barren for the entire season” (2:301-302).

Thus, when Jesus approached the leafy fig tree, He had every reason to suspect that something edible would be on it. However, after inspecting the tree, Mark records that “He found nothing but leaves.” No taksh were budding as they should have been if the tree was going to produce edible figs that year. The tree appeared to be fruitful, but it only had outward signs of bearing fruit (leaves) and in truth offered nothing of value to weary travelers. . . .

[I]n a general sense, Jesus often insisted that trees which do not bear good fruit will be cut down (Matthew 7:19; Luke 13:6-9). The fig tree did not bear fruit, was useless, and deserved to be destroyed: the spiritual application being that any human who does not bear fruit for God will also be destroyed for his or her failure to produce.

Jesus did not throw a temper tantrum and curse the fig tree even though it was incapable of producing fruit. He cursed the tree because it should have been growing fruit since it had the outward signs of productivity. Jesus’ calculated timing underscored the spiritual truth that barren spiritual trees eventually run out of time. As for personal application, we should all diligently strive to ensure that we are not the barren fig tree.

44) THE GREAT COMMISSION

In Matthew 28:19 Jesus tells the eleven disciples to “go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit.”

1. This is obviously a later addition to the gospel, for two reasons:

a. It took the church over two hundred years of fighting (sometimes bloody) over the doctrine of the trinity before this baptismal formula came into use. Had it been in the original gospel, there would have been no fighting.

First of all, this is another bald assertion that a particular passage was added later to the Bible. No proof, no evidence; just the assertion, which, of course, carries no force or weight whatsoever.

Secondly, trinitarianism is massively present in the New Testament, both in terms of Jesus’ own claim to be God in the flesh (and New Testament agreement), and also the trinitarian teaching that the Holy Spirit is God, as well as, of course, God the Father.

The Didache was a very early Christian document (as early as 70 AD), and it states:

After the foregoing instructions, baptize in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, in living [running] water. . . . If you have neither, pour water three times on the head, in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. (7:1)

That’s hardly “two hundred years” later “before this baptismal formula came into use”: as Carlson ignorantly proclaims.

45) In Acts, when people are baptized, they are baptized just in the name of Jesus (Acts 8:16, 10:48, 19:5). Peter says explicitly that they are to “Repent, and let each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins” (Acts 2:38).

They were baptized in Jesus’ name (as well as in the name of the Father and Holy Spirit). The same book of Acts did not deny trinitarianism at all, since it provided the best single passages that proves  the deity of the Holy Spirit:

Acts 5:3-4 But Peter said, “Anani’as, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back part of the proceeds of the land? [4] . . . You have not lied to men but to God.” . . .

Ananias lied to the Holy Spirit; at the same time he lied to God; therefore the Holy Spirit and God are synonymous: one and the same. Just five verses before Acts 2:38 cited above, Luke provides an explicitly trinitarian utterance:

Acts 2:33 Being therefore exalted at the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he has poured out this which you see and hear.

He did the same again, later in the book:

Acts 20:28 Take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to care for the church of God which he obtained with the blood of his own Son.

Commentaries provide a fuller explanation of the main question at hand:

The question presents itself, Why is the baptism here, and elsewhere in the Acts (Acts 10:48Acts 19:5), “in the name of Jesus Christ,” while in Matthew 28:19, the Apostles are commanded to baptize in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit? Various explanations have been given. It has been said that baptism in the Name of any one of the Persons of the Trinity, involves the Name of the other Two. It has even been assumed that St. Luke meant the fuller formula when he used the shorter one. But a more satisfactory solution is, perhaps, found in seeing in the words of Matthew 28:19 (see Note there) the formula for the baptism of those who, as Gentiles. had been “without God in the world, not knowing the Father;” while for converts from Judaism, or those who had before been proselytes to Judaism, it was enough that there should be the distinctive profession of their faith in Jesus as the Christ, the Son of God, added on to their previous belief in the Father and the Holy Spirit. In proportion as the main work of the Church of Christ lay among the Gentiles, it was natural that the fuller form should become dominant, and finally be used exclusively. (Ellicott’s Commentary for English Readers)

Catholic apologist Karlo Broussard further elaborates:

Why is the Church saying that we can baptize with the Trinitarian formula when all the baptisms mentioned in the Bible are done “in the name of Jesus”? Here are few ways to meet this challenge.

First, a self-professed Christian can’t reject the validity of the Trinitarian formula because Jesus commands the apostles to use it when they baptize: “Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit” (Matt. 28:19). Those who pose the challenge, therefore, at least have to acknowledge that the Trinitarian formula is valid since it comes from the lips of the Master himself.

Second, when compared to Jesus’ instruction to use the Trinitarian formula in Matthew 28:19the passages found in the book of Acts don’t seem to refer to the actual formula that must be used in administering the sacrament.

Notice how in Matthew 28:19 Jesus is privately addressing only the eleven (Matt. 28:16), whom he is sending toperform baptisms. In context, it makes sense that Jesus would be telling them exactly how to do it.

Contrast this with, for example, Peter’s injunction in Acts 2. That takes place in a public setting and is given to those who would receive baptism—not to those who would be performing it. It would not seem to be as vitally important for those receiving the sacrament to know the precise formula as for those performing it, right?

Moreover, Peter’s injunction is not premeditated. Instead, he is quickly enumerating what must be done to be saved in response to those present who, upon hearing his preaching, were “cut to the heart” and asked him, “Brethren, what shall we do?” (v.37). It’s unreasonable to think that Peter would be giving precise instructions as to the words that must be used in baptism when he’s merely saying, “You want to be saved? Okay, here are the things you need to do—repent and get baptized.”

Jesus’s command to baptize in Matthew 28:19 is also distinct from Peter’s command for Cornelius to be baptized “in the name of Jesus Christ” (Acts 10:48). As on the day of Pentecost, Luke records what Peter says to those who would receive baptism, not those who would administer it.

Also, Luke does not record what Peter said specifically. He merely narrates in summary form: “And he [Peter] commanded them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ.” It doesn’t seem that Luke intends to say that the words “in the name of Jesus” were Peter’s instructions for the actual words to be used in administering baptism. (“Baptize in the Name of … Who?”, Catholic Answers, 11-29-18)

46) This contradicts Jesus’ earlier statement that his message was for the Jews only (Matthew 10:5-6, 15:24). The gospels, and especially Acts, have been edited to play this down, but the contradiction remains. It was the apostle Paul who, against the express wishes of Jesus, extended the gospel (Paul’s version) to the gentiles.

Again, this exhibits a profound ignorance and cluelessness as regards actual biblical teaching. I have disposed of this bogus objection at least four times (aren’t links wonderful and so convenient?):

David Madison vs. the Gospel of Mark #7: Ch. 7 (Gentiles) [8-19-19]

Vs. Atheist David Madison #39: Jesus the Xenophobic Bigot? (And did Jesus minister exclusively to Jews and not Gentiles at all: an alleged Gospel inconsistency)? [12-12-19]

Did Jesus Minister Exclusively to Jews and not Gentiles? [7-2-20]

Did Jesus Heal and Preach to Only Jews? No! [National Catholic Register, 7-19-20]

47) ENOCH IN THE BOOK OF JUDE

Jude 14 contains a prophecy of Enoch. Thus, if the Book of Jude is the Word of God, then the writings of “Enoch” from which Jude quotes, are also the Word of God. The Book of Enoch was used in the early church until at least the third century – Clement, Irenaeus and Tertullian were familiar with it. However, as church doctrine began to solidify, the Book of Enoch became an embarrassment to the church and in a short period of time it became the Lost Book of Enoch. A complete manuscript of the Book of Enoch was discovered in Ethiopia in 1768. Since then, portions of at least eight separate copies have been found among the Dead Sea scrolls. It is easy to see why the church had to get rid of Enoch – not only does it contain fantastic imagery (some of which was borrowed by the Book of Revelation), but it also contradicts church doctrine on several points (and, since it is obviously the work of several writers, it also contradicts itself).

The fallacy here is to think that because the Bible cites something, it, too, must be the “Word of God.” This simply isn’t true, since the Bible cites several non-canonical works or aspects of various traditions without implying that they are canonical. St. Paul, for example, in speaking to the philosophical Athenians (Acts 17:22-28), cited  the Greek poet Aratus: (c. 315-240 B. C.) and philosopher-poet Epimenides (6th c. B. C.) – both referring to Zeus. So St. Paul used two Greek pagan poet-philosophers, talking about a false god (Zeus) and “Christianized” their thoughts: applying them to the true God. He also cited the Greek dramatist  Menander (c.342-291 B.C.) at 1 Corinthians 15:33: “bad company ruins good morals”.

For more along these lines, see David Palm, “Oral Tradition in the New Testament” (This Rock, May 1995) and “Non-canonical books referenced in the Bible” (Wikipedia).

48) THE APOSTLE PAUL’S CONVERSION

The Book of Acts contains three accounts of Paul’s conversion on the road to Damascus. All of three accounts contradict each other regarding what happened to Paul’s fellow travelers.

1. Acts 9:7 says they “stood speechless, hearing the voice…”

2. Acts 22:9 says they “did not hear the voice…”

3. Acts 26:14 says “when we had all fallen to the ground…”

Some translations of the Bible (the New International Version and the New American Standard, for example) try to remove the contradiction in Acts 22:9 by translating the phrase quoted above as “did not understand the voice…” However, the Greek word “akouo” is translated 373 times in the New Testament as “hear,” “hears,” “hearing” or “heard” and only in Acts 22:9 is it translated as “understand.” In fact, it is the same word that is translated as “hearing” in Acts 9:7, quoted above. The word “understand” occurs 52 times in the New Testament, but only in Acts 22:9 is it translated from the Greek word “akouo.”

This is an example of Bible translators sacrificing intellectual honesty in an attempt to reconcile conflicting passages in the New Testament.

Several people have made adequate and sufficient refutations of this charge: Erik Manning, J. P. Holding, Bill Pratt, and Jimmy Akin.

49) JESUS CALLS THE DISCIPLES

1. In Matthew 4:18-22 and Mark 1:16-20, Peter and Andrew are casting nets into the sea. Jesus calls out to them and they leave their nets and follow him. Jesus then goes on a little further and sees James and John mending their nets with their father. He calls to them and they leave their father and follow him.

2. In Luke 5:1-11, Jesus asks Peter to take him out in Peter’s boat so Jesus can preach to the multitude. James and John are in another boat. When Jesus finishes preaching, he tells Peter how to catch a great quantity of fish (John 21:3-6 incorporates this story in a post- resurrection appearance). After Peter catches the fish, he and James and John are so impressed that after they bring their boats to shore they leave everything and follow Jesus.

3. In John 1:35-42, Andrew hears John the Baptist call Jesus the Lamb of God. Andrew then stays with Jesus for the remainder of the day and then goes to get his brother Peter and brings him to meet Jesus.

Apologist Eric Lyons has made a direct reply to Paul Carlson concerning this groundless charge.

50) SHOULD THE TWELVE DISCIPLES TAKE STAFFS?

When Jesus summons the twelve disciples to send them out to proclaim the kingdom of God, he lists the things the disciples should not take with them.

1. In Matthew 10:9-10 and Luke 9:3-5, a staff is included in the list of things not to take.

2. In contradiction to Matthew and Luke, Mark 6:8 makes a specific exception – the disciples may take a staff.

At least this appears at first glance to be a real contradiction (unlike virtually all atheist proposed ones I’ve ever seen: and I’ve dealt with several hundred). So it deserves a serious treatment. Protestant apologists Eric Lyons and Brad Harrub (on a site that specializes in alleged biblical contradictions) grant the difficulty of interpreting these passages harmoniously in writing that they were “Perhaps the most difficult alleged Bible contradiction that we have been asked to ‘tackle’ . . . A cursory reading of the above passages admittedly is somewhat confusing.” Then they proceed to explain the apparent discrepancies:

The differences between Matthew and Mark are explained easily when one acknowledges that the writers used different Greek verbs to express different meanings. In Matthew, the word “provide” (NKJV) is an English translation of the Greek word ktesthe. According to Bauer’s Greek-English Lexicon, the root word comes from ktaomai, which means to “procure for oneself, acquire, get” (1979, p. 455). Based upon these definitions, the New American Standard Version used the English verb “acquire” in Matthew 10:9 (“Do not acquire….”), instead of “provide” or “take.” In Matthew, Jesus is saying: “Do not acquire anything in addition to what you already have that may tempt you or stand in your way. Just go as you are.” As Mark indicated, the apostles were to “take” (airo) what they had, and go. The apostles were not to waste precious time gathering supplies (extra apparel, staffs, shoes, etc.) or making preparations for their trip, but instead were instructed to trust in God’s providence for additional needs. Jesus did not mean for the apostles to discard the staffs and sandals they already had; rather, they were not to go and acquire more.

They continue by tackling the additional information from Luke:

As is obvious from a comparison of the verses in Matthew and Luke, they are recording the same truth—that the apostles were not to spend valuable time gathering extra staffs—only they are using different words to do so.

Provide (Greek ktaomineither gold nor silver…nor staffs” (Matthew 10:9-10, emp. added).

Take (Greek airo) nothing for the journey, neither staffs” (Luke 9:3, emp. added).

Luke did not use ktaomi in his account because he nearly always used ktaomi in a different sense than Matthew did. In Matthew’s account, the word ktaomai is used to mean “provide” or “acquire,” whereas in the books of Luke and Acts, Luke used this word to mean “purchase, buy, or earn.” Notice the following examples of how Luke used this word.

“I fast twice a week; I pay tithes of all that I get” (ktaomai) [Luke 18:12, emp. added, NAS]

“Now this man purchased (ktaomai) a field with the wages of iniquity (Acts 1:18, emp. added).

“Your money perish with you, because you thought that the gift of God could be purchased (ktaomai) with money!” (Acts 8:20, emp. added).

The commander answered, “With a large sum I obtained (ktaomai) this citizenship” (Acts 22:28, emp. added).

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[Luke 21:19 is the only place one could argue where Luke may have used ktaomai to mean something other than “purchase, buy, or earn,” but even here there is a transactional notion in it (Miller, 1997)].When Luke, the beloved physician (Colossians 4:14), used the word ktaomai, he meant something different than when Matthew, the tax collector, used the same word. Whereas Luke used ktaomai to refer to purchasing or buying something, Matthew used the Greek verb agorazo (cf. Matthew 14:15; 25:9-10; 27:6-7). Matthew used ktaomai only in the sense of acquiring something (not purchasing something). As such, it would make absolutely no sense for Luke to use ktaomai in his account of Jesus sending out the apostles (9:3). If he did, then he would have Jesus forbidding the apostles to “purchase” or “buy” money [“Buy nothing for the journey, neither staffs nor bag nor bread nor money….”]. Thus, Luke used the more general Greek verb (airo) in order to convey the same idea that Matthew did when using the Greek verb ktaomai.
*

Just as ktaomai did not mean the same for Luke and Matthew, the Greek word airo (translated “take” in both Mark 6:8 and Luke 9:3) often did not mean the same for Luke and Mark (see Miller, 1997). [Understanding this simple fact eliminates the “contradiction” completely, for unless the skeptic can be certain that Mark and Luke were using the word in the same sense, he cannot prove that the accounts contradict each other.] Mark consistently used airo in other passages throughout his gospel to mean simply “take” or “pick up and carry” (2:9; 6:29; 11:23; 13:16). That Luke (in 9:3) did not mean the same sense of airo as Mark did (in 6:8) is suggested by the fact that in Luke 19:21-22 he used this same verb to mean “acquire.” [see also the visual chart in the article that is very helpful]

Now, the anti-theist atheists (who love bringing up things like this) typically respond with “well, see how hard you had to work to solve the contradiction?! It shouldn’t have to be that hard!” We agree that it shouldn’t be so hard, if one understood Greek in the first place. But for those of us who don’t know Greek, it appears contradictory, because the difference hinges upon different Greek words and even different meanings of the same Greek words (in context): just as English words usually have several definitions.

Therefore, it takes a considerable bit of explaining to clarify for the non-Greek speaker. Once that key difference is understood, the so-called “contradiction” is shown to not be one at all, because the writers are using different Greek words and meaning different things. And there are many alleged “biblical contradictions” that are resolved in this same fashion.

51) THE SECOND COMING

1. During the disciples’ lifetime

There are several passages in the gospels where Jesus says he will return in the disciples’ lifetime (Mark 13:30, Matthew 10:23, 16:28, 24:34, Luke 21:32, etc.).

The same expectation held during the period the apostle Paul wrote his letters. In 1 Corinthians 7:29-31 Paul says that the time is so short that believers should drastically change the way that they live. But Paul had a problem – some believers had died, so what would happen to them when Jesus returned?

Paul’s answer in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 shows that Paul expected that at least some of those he was writing to would be alive when Jesus returned – “we who are alive, and remain…” The same passage also indicates that Paul believed that those believers who had died remained “asleep in Jesus” until he returned. However, as the delay in Jesus’ return grew longer, the location of Jesus’ kingdom shifted from earth to heaven and we later find Paul indicating that when believers die they will immediately “depart and be with Christ” (Philippians 1:23).

It is quite obvious that Jesus never intended to start any type of church structure since he believed he would return very shortly to rule his kingdom in person. It is also quite obvious that Jesus was wrong about when he was coming back.

See:

Seidensticker Folly #58: Jesus Erred on Time of 2nd Coming? (with David Palm) [10-7-20]

“The Last Days”: Meaning in Hebrew, Biblical Thought [12-5-08]

Dr. David Madison vs. Jesus #3: Nature & Time of 2nd Coming [8-3-19]

Debate with an Agnostic on the Meaning of “Last Days” and Whether the Author of Hebrews Was a False Prophet [9-13-06]

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Photo credit: darksouls1 (10-10-16) [PixabayPixabay License]

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Summary: I tackle and refute all 51 supposed Bible “contradictions” suggested by anti-theist atheist Paul Carlson in his pathetic hit-piece, “New Testament Contradictions” (The Secular Web, 1995).

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2021-03-26T14:12:25-04:00

[book and purchase information]

Everyone has axioms that they can’t absolutely prove, by definition. That goes for atheist, nominalist, realist, pedestrian, blue-eyed, left-handed moth catcher, everybody. My epistemological position is that nothing can be proven absolutely, in a purely philosophical, logical sense, but that one can have a certitude of faith. I think that would be a supposition common to both Newman and a presuppositionalist.

Cardinal Newman’s theory is a helpful paradigm for understanding development, which is only one aspect of Church history. Personally, I think it is very helpful and important for Protestant-Catholic discussion. Development itself I take to be self-evident. Newman’s theory is one way to look at development. It happens to be the classic treatment, as acknowledged by Protestant as well as Catholic scholars.

Newman explains the basic epistemological and evidential nature of his theory in his Essay on the Development of Christian Doctrine (Introduction, section 21: all emphases added):

The following Essay is directed towards a solution of the difficulty which has been stated, – the difficulty, as far as it exists, which lies in the way of our using in controversy the testimony of our most natural informant concerning the doctrine and worship of Christianity, viz. the history of eighteen hundred years. The view on which it is written has at all times, perhaps, been implicitly adopted by theologians, and, I believe, has recently been illustrated by several distinguished writers of the continent, such as De Maistre and Mohler: viz. that the increase and expansion of the Christian Creed and Ritual, and the variations which have attended the process in the case of individual writers and Churches, are the necessary attendants on any philosophy or polity which takes possession of the intellect and heart, and has had any wide or extended dominion; that, from the nature of the human mind, time is necessary for the full comprehension and perfection of great ideas; and that the highest and most wonderful truths, though communicated to the world once for all by inspired teachers, could not be comprehended all at once by the recipients, but, as being received and transmitted by minds not inspired and through media which were human, have required only the longer time and deeper thought for their full elucidation. This may be called the Theory of Development of Doctrine; and, before proceeding to treat of it, one remark may be in place.

Orthodox and Anglicans would have the same general view on doctrinal development. But one must accept apostolic succession and believe that nothing can radically change doctrinally, using the standard of the apostolic deposit left for us to preserve. If a doctrine fundamentally changes, or is discarded, that is evolution or revolution, respectively, not development. One cannot believe in a mass apostasy (the standard anti-Catholic Protestant, or Mormon, or Jehovah’s Witness view), because that contradicts indefectibility, which is a premise of development of doctrine.

We must compare competing notions of development, and see which one is more plausible, given the facts presented. In my fourth book, I had a “dialogue” with Orestes Brownson, a Catholic convert, who disputed Newman and seemed to think his development was evolution. I hear the same occasionally from “traditionalists.” One of the enduring myths about Newman was that he was a modernist.

[Newman] It is undoubtedly an hypothesis to account for a difficulty; but such too are the various explanations given by astronomers from Ptolemy to Newton of the apparent motions of the heavenly bodies, and it is as unphilosophical on that account to object to the one as to object to the other. Nor is it more reasonable to express surprise, that at this time of day a theory is necessary, granting for argument’s sake that the theory is novel, than to have directed a similar wonder in disparagement of the theory of gravitation, or the Plutonian theory in geology. Doubtless, the theory of the Secret and the theory of doctrinal Developments are expedients, and so is the dictum of Vincentius; so is the art of grammar or the use of the quadrant; it is an expedient to enable us to solve what has now become a necessary and an anxious problem. For three hundred years the documents and the facts of Christianity have been exposed to a jealous scrutiny; works have been judged spurious which once were received without a question; facts have been discarded or modified which were once first principles in argument; new facts and new principles have been brought to light; philosophical views and polemical discussions of various tendencies have been maintained with more or less success. Not only has the relative situation of controversies and theologies altered, but infidelity itself is in a different, – I am obliged to say in a more hopeful position, – as regards Christianity.

If the liberals and modernists insist on doing a hatchet job on Christian history with their so-called “higher criticism” and so forth, then it is incumbent upon Christians to present an alternate Christian view of history. That goes all the way back to Augustine and Eusebius. One can have varying interpretations of history, as it is subjective and dependent upon how one organizes and views its events. So Newman offered up a hypothesis and tested it by facts to see if it worked. It did. Just as Butler turned deist analogical reasoning against the deists, turning the tables, so Newman used Church history in reply to secularists and Protestants alike (eventually even against the Anglican via media).

[Newman continues] The facts of Revealed Religion, though in their substance unaltered, present a less compact and orderly front to the attacks of its enemies now than formerly, and allow of the introduction of new inquiries and theories concerning its sources and its rise. The state of things is not as it was, when an appeal lay to the supposed works of the Areopagite, or to the primitive Decretals, or to St. Dionysius’s answers to Paul, or to the Coena Domini of St. Cyprian. The assailants of dogmatic truth have got the start of its adherents of whatever Creed; philosophy is completing what criticism has begun; and apprehensions are not unreasonably excited lest we should have a new world to conquer before we have weapons for the warfare. Already infidelity has its views and conjectures, on which it arranges the facts of ecclesiastical history; and it is sure to consider the absence of any antagonist theory as an evidence of the reality of its own.

If we are to be salt and light to our culture, we must meet it on its own ground. That’s what a wise apologist or spokesman of Christianity tries to do. We are to be in the world, and attempt to transform it by all means at our disposal, but not of the world. That has always been the trick to achieve for Christians who are not hermits or drop-outs from society-at-large. We are to be, like Paul, “all things to all people” that we might “win” them. He meant, of course, to adopt methodological tactics which the recipient can understand from within their own paradigm. That’s precisely what Paul did on Mars Hill in Athens.

Adopting similar ways of arguing, taking into account the opponents’ paradigm, so as to better reach them, and actually adopting the competing paradigm are two different things. Newman does nothing unChristian in arguing the way he does.

[Newman] That the hypothesis, here to be adopted, accounts not only for the Athanasian Creed, but for the Creed of Pope Pius, is no fault of those who adopt it. No one has power over the issues of his principles; we cannot manage our argument, and have as much of it as we please and no more. An argument is needed, unless Christianity is to abandon the province of argument; and those who find fault with the explanation here offered of its historical phenomena will find it their duty to provide one for themselves.

Newman’s theory was nothing essentially new. It contained no concept that was not already set forth in some fashion by St. Augustine, St. Vincent of Lerins, and St. Thomas Aquinas. Yet people like Dr. James White and the 19th century Anglican controversialist George Salmon have claimed that Newman “came up with” the theory out of mid-air; made out of whole cloth (in order, of course, to special plead for the absurdities of Catholic corruptions and screwing around with the historical data). This is manifestly false. Newman’s genius was in the application of his more explicitly formulated theory to many, many facts of Church history, considered in order to test the claims of the “expedient hypothesis.” No one else had ever made such a wide-ranging argument, seeking to incorporate and explain so many divergent facts of doctrinal development and history of theology.

Also, he was unique in that he made much use of analogy. That comes straight from his high regard for Anglican Joseph Butler’s Analogy of Religion (1736), the classic work of apologetics, considered by many to be one of the best apologetic works in Christian history. The skeptic philosopher David Hume thought it was the best defense of Christianity he had read. Baptist theologian Bernard Ramm writes at length about Butler’s Analogy:

In philosophical background he was deeply committed to Locke . . . Locke was famous for his attack on the notion of innate ideas . . . Butler’s attack on deism was then a sort of within-the-camp attack . . . by accepting Lockian epistemology and the deist’s theory of analogy Butler enters within their camp and by hand spikes their guns. So capable, so thorough, so devastating was Butler’s attack upon deism that no real formal answer was ever made . . . Cardinal Newman was also much impressed with the Analogy and believed Butler to be the most authoritarian voice in Anglican theology . . .Butler placed himself within this Lockian empirical tradition with its emphasis upon limitation of knowledge . . . Butler renounced both rationalism and idealism and cites Descartes as an example of a philosopher resting his case upon hypotheses, i.e., upon unverifiable contentions . . . He defends a strict empiricism and a strict inductionism. It is a system which attempts to make both theology and apologetics vigorously empirical and deductive contrasting sharply with any speculative approach to these two areas . . .

Butler follows the pathway of common sense, a reserved agnosticism, and a rejection of speculative metaphysics. He seeks to ground religion – to use a recent expression – in brute fact. He is against Plato, Augustine and Thomas in so far as Thomas represents a speculative metaphysics. The ultimate data of religion must be of the same stuff as the ultimate data of science. It must be that sort of stuff which has unquestionable authority to the man of common sense . . .

Butler is telling the world that there is no a priori knowledge of God that is coercive. God’s existence and ways are to be deciphered from His handiwork, and our conclusions are not absolutes but probability statements . . . According to Butler no absolute proof for anything exists [my own position of long standing]. The prudential man acts on the slope of the evidence, and when he detects the direction towards which the evidence slopes he acts accordingly . . .

His apologetics proper is built upon the combined principles of probability and analogy, although he does warn us that the proof of Christianity is essentially the total impact of the evidence. Probability provides the grounds for action and analogy the direction. (Varieties of Christian Apologetics, Grand Rapids, Michigan: Baker Book House, 1962, 107, 109-113, 116)

The profound influence of Butler on Newman is rather obvious, and well-known. His style and outlook pervades the Essay on Development and his philosophical work, Grammar of Assent. Mentions of Butler are numerous. Thus Newman’s theory is not within the rationalistic tradition, but the empirical one, as with Butler.

Newman’s theory is but one schema. I think it succeeds, and I will hold to it until someone refutes it and shows me something better. It is far more history than philosophy (somewhat like Augustine’s in his City of God). It is a “lens,” but a lens can’t change the facts of history themselves; only, perhaps, in how they are arranged or organized, and what they tell us, just as, e.g., Stephen’s sermon before he was stoned gave a Christian interpretation of salvation history. We don’t say that is “philosophy.”

Newman’s development was philosophy primarily in the sense of methodology: analogy and falsifiability. Both of those concepts are biblical, however: parables are analogies, and eyewitness claims of the Resurrection lend themselves to falsifiability: the Jews only had to produce the body of Jesus to overcome it. His theory is not an axiom, but an hypothesis to account for the facts of Church history, as he states.

Newman starts with the same presuppositionalist axiom that every Christian begins with, if they think through the issues properly and long enough. Here are some examples of Newman’s axioms, in his Grammar of Assent:

Now certainly the thought of God, as Theists entertain it, is not gained by an instinctive association of His presence with any sensible phenomena; but the office which the senses directly fulfil as regards creation that devolves indirectly on certain of our mental phenomena as regards the Creator. Those phenomena are found in the sense of moral obligation. As from a multitude of instinctive perceptions, acting in particular instances, of something beyond the senses, we generalize the notion of an external world, and then picture that world in and according to those particular phenomena from which we started, so from the perceptive power which identifies the intimations of conscience with the reverberations or echoes (so to say) of an external admonition, we proceed on to the notion of a Supreme Ruler and Judge, and then again we image Him and His attributes in those recurring intimations, out of which, as mental phenomena, our recognition of His existence was originally gained. And, if the impressions which His creatures make on us through our senses oblige us to regard those creatures as sui generis respectively, it is not wonderful that the notices, which He indirectly gives us through our conscience, of His own nature are such as to make us understand that He is like Himself and like nothing else.

I have already said I am not proposing here to prove the Being of a God; yet I have found it impossible to avoid saying where I look for the proof of it. For I am looking for that proof in the same quarter as that from which I would commence a proof of His attributes and character, – by the same means as those by which I show how we apprehend Him, not merely as a notion, but as a reality. The last indeed of these three investigations alone concerns me here, but I cannot altogether exclude the two former from my consideration. However, I repeat, what I am directly aiming at, is to explain how we gain an image of God and give a real assent to the proposition that He exists. And next, in order to do this, of course I must start from some first principle;- and that first principle, which I assume and shall not attempt to prove, is that which I should also use as a foundation in those other two inquiries, viz. that we have by nature a conscience.

I assume, then, that Conscience has a legitimate place among our mental acts; as really so, as the action of memory, of reasoning, of imagination, or as the sense of the beautiful; that, as there are objects which, when presented to the mind, cause it to feel grief, regret, joy, or desire, so there are things which excite in us approbation or blame, and which we in consequence call right or wrong; and which, experienced in ourselves, kindle in us that specific sense of pleasure or pain, which goes by the name of a good or bad conscience. This being taken for granted, I shall attempt to show that in this special feeling, which follows on the commission of what we call right or wrong, lie the materials for the real apprehension of a Divine Sovereign and Judge.” (Chapter Five, section 1: “Belief in One God”)

This is a sort of moral argument for God’s existence. But Newman is presupposing all along that this knowledge is innate, put there by God. He would disagree with Locke’s tabula rasa. He thinks that God put these notions or affinities within us, just as the presuppositionalist does.

It is interesting to read the Introduction to this work (Doubleday Image edition) by the eminent Thomist Etienne Gilson:

The third and last mistake to avoid in interpreting Newman’s doctrine is to see it as a rational probabilism redeemed by a belated appeal to religious faith . . . this Essay . . . is precisely and exclusively about our assent to that kind of truth which, because it is accepted on the strength of the word of God alone, cannot possibly be received otherwise than by religious faith. Here again, let us not attribute to Newman a fideism entirely foreign to his authentic thought. He knows very well that we cannot assent to a proposition unless we have some intelligent apprehension of its meaning; only, because the Grammar of Assent is about religious dogma, the propositions which it discusses are not susceptible of proof properly so called. Newman himself makes this clear at the very beginning of his book: ‘In this Essay I treat of propositions only in their bearing upon concrete matter, and I am mainly concerned with Assent; with Inference, in its relation to Assent, and only such inference as is not demonstration: with Doubt hardly at all” (p. 28). The importance of the effort pursued by reason, even in matters whose very nature excludes demonstration, could not be overlooked by Newman. It was at the very core of his subject. (p. 15)

There is no concept of “thesis” and “antithesis” in Scripture. There is one Apostolic Tradition, and it doesn’t change. Change is anathema to the notion of both Tradition and development (not to mention the Vincentian canon). Church historian Philip Schaff’s view on development, then, appears to be a species of the liberal, modernist idea of “evolution” of dogma, rather than development. In his schema (if I understand it correctly), doctrines can actually change into something else, and not be traced back in an unbroken succession to the apostles (which is what happened with Protestantism when it differed from received tradition).

I don’t think this can be squared with the Bible or the Fathers’ outlook at all. It is the heretical principle of authority: innovation might be the “new” truth because that is how “the Spirit is progressing,” etc. This strikes me as the theological version of legal positivism, whereby the Constitution evolves due to cultural conditions, increased knowledge, and so forth; or the old Calvinist postmilleniallism, secularized into the Idea of Progress (which even made its way into evolutionary thought). That cannot be synthesized with the “faith once delivered to the saints” (Jude 3).

Newman operated in modes of thought and paradigms quite different from the Thomist ones. To the extent that he utilizes a sort of “psychological” criterion for truth and falsehood he is more closely approximating nominalist modes of thought, where the individual is more key than the universal concepts. So his whole notion of the “illative sense” and certitude and assent, etc., is a very different way of approaching religious truth claims than Aquinas would have taken. Pope St. John Paul II — like Newman — works through the issue of epistemology in an “inclusive” fashion, trying to weave together different strands. I am very much in the same general disposition.

Christianity is not bound to any one philosophy. That would place philosophy higher than Christianity, or faith, or revelation, and that is what I vehemently oppose, because it makes theology the handmaiden of philosophy, rather than vice versa, and possesses the danger of reducing Christianity to philosophy altogether, so that it would become something akin to deism or Unitarianism, as we know and love that denomination today. Newman’s theory can also be falsified. One need only demonstrate an alternate historiographical framework.

One must also have faith, with regard to doctrinal development, as with Christian faith in general. The Catholic is not like the Protestant: ever uncertain, ever tentative and unsure whether their denomination might be wrong on this and that; always searching; on a perpetual quest that never seems to be able to be fulfilled. By its very nature, Protestantism doesn’t offer certainty. Catholics look at it very differently. We believe in faith that Jesus established one visible Church and protected it from error through the centuries, and that the Catholic Church is that one Church; while not excluding other Christian groups altogether, as also parts of the Church in some fashion.

We believe this in faith. Faith cannot be proven under a microscope, but we think we can plausibly back our views up from Scripture, history, and reason, alike. That’s all anyone can ask of any view. Whether it is true or false has to be shown by refuting its claims and/or offering better ones in its place. I’ve only become more and more confident in my work as an apologist, which is the blessing of apologetics: we strengthen our own faith a great deal in trying to help others to strengthen theirs.

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Related Reading

How Newman Convinced me to Become a Catholic [1996]

Importance & Influence of Blessed Cardinal Newman [5-22-03]

Was Cardinal Newman a Modernist?: Pope St. Pius X vs. Anti-Catholic Polemicist David T. King (Development, not Evolution of Doctrine) [1-20-04]

Cardinal Newman’s Philosophical & Epistemological Commitments [10-19-04]

The Certitude of Faith According to Cardinal Newman [9-30-08]

The Quotable Newman (Dave Armstrong): Foreword by Joseph Pearce [9-5-12]

Books by Dave Armstrong: The Quotable Newman, Vol. II [8-20-13]

Books by Dave Armstrong: Cardinal Newman: Q & A in Theology, Church History, and Conversion [2-24-15]

Introduction to my book: Cardinal Newman: Q & A in Theology, Church History, & Conversion [5-23-15]

Blessed John Henry Cardinal Newman: “Father” of Vatican II (Old Links Page) [4-18-16]

St. John Henry Cardinal Newman on Apologetics [11-19-20]

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(originally uploaded on 1 October 2002; revised on 4 December 2002)

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Summary: St. John Henry Cardinal Newman’s theory is the classic paradigm for understanding doctrinal development, which is demonstrably & historically inevitable for all Christian doctrines.

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2021-03-25T15:38:11-04:00

[book and purchase information]

Reply to a Protestant apologist’s comments (in blue) on a public discussion board:

*****

Do you even comprehend that whether Newman’s theory is seen as “development” or “evolution” largely depends on one’s philosophical presuppositions . . . ?

No, because that is a non sequitur. You seem to believe that one’s philosophy almost entirely colors their perceptions of theology, ecclesiology, and Church history. I don’t buy that (not nearly to the extent that you do). I continue to maintain that Christianity is not a philosophy. Faith is not philosophy. And all Christians have faith. To the extent that they do, they are not acting or believing on solely philosophical grounds. Development can be understood as a way to view Church history, without recourse to complicated philosophical discussions.

Consider that for someone who doesn’t believe in “essences” and doesn’t invest “Church history” with the power to legislate belief and practice, a theory that approaches history with such a priorism cannot help but look like a theory that justifies mutation and evolution,

With evolution (at least macroevolution, at any rate), something changes into something else entirely different. Development is like an acorn changing into an oak tree, or a human embryo growing into an adult person: an organic continuity where the essence stays the same even though outward appearances differ. This is not even a Catholic-Protestant issue. Christians of all stripes (i.e., those who think about and respect Church history at all) have always accepted development in some form or other.

The argument between Catholics and Protestants on this is not over whether development occurs at all, but over which doctrines are developments and which are corruptions. Even [anti-Catholic apologist] James White believes that. He (and most Protestants) think distinctive Catholic doctrines are unbiblical, nonbiblical, extra-biblical, and therefore corruptions, and no developments. Catholics think Protestant distinctives are late-arising novelties (as well as unbiblical) and therefore clearly not developments of what came before, as there was no “before.”

This is a standard concept amongst Church historians of whatever stripe. Lutheran (now Orthodox) Jaroslav Pelikan’s views (and admiration of Cardinal Newman) are well-known. Any Church historian you could find accepts the notion of development and understands that it is not evolution. Protestant historian J. N. D. Kelly, for example, starts out his widely-used work, Early Christian Doctrines (San Francisco: Harper, revised edition, 1978) with these words:

The object of this book is to sketch the development of the principal Christian doctrines . . . (p. 3)

He goes on to state that the student of the “patristic age”:

. . . must not expect to find it characterized by that doctrinal homogeneity which he may have come across at other epochs. Being still at the formative stage, the theology of the early centuries exhibits the extremes of immaturity and sophistication . . . it is a commonplace that certain fathers (Origen is the classic example) who were later adjudged heretics counted for orthodox in their lifetimes. The explanation is not that the early Church was indifferent to the distinction between orthodoxy and heresy. Rather, it is that, while from the beginning the broad outline of revealed truth was respected as a sacrosanct inheritance from the apostles, its theological explication was to a large extent left unfettered. Only gradually, and even then in regard to comparatively few doctrines which became subjects of debate, did the tendency to insist upon precise definition and rigid uniformity assert itself. (pp. 3-4)

Likewise, widely respected Protestant historian Philip Schaff. In his General Introduction to his multi-volume History of the Christian Church (Grand Rapids, Michigan: Eerdmans, 1975, reprint of 1910 edition from Scribner’s, New York, p. 10), he writes:

[T]he mind of the Church has gradually apprehended and unfolded the divine truths of revelation, . . . the teachings of scripture have been formulated and shaped into dogmas, and grown into creeds and confessions of faith, or systems of doctrine stamped with public authority. This growth of the church in the knowledge off the infallible word of God is a constant struggle against error, misbelief, and unbelief; and the history of heresies is an essential part of the history of doctrines.Every important dogma now professed by the Christian church is the result of a severe conflict with error. The doctrine of the holy Trinity, for instance, was believed from the beginning, but it required, in addition to the preparatory labors of the ante-Nicene age, fifty years of controversy, in which the strongest intellects were absorbed, until it was brought to the clear expression of the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed. The Christological conflict was equally long and intense, until it was brought to a settlement by the council of Chalcedon.

Most Protestant apologists or students of history are well-acquainted with the outlines of Church history and the early theological struggles to define orthodoxy. To reiterate, then: the existence of doctrinal development itself it is not a Protestant-Catholic argument; the real dispute is over which particular doctrines are the legitimate developments.

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Related Reading

Development of Doctrine: A Corruption of Biblical Teaching? [1995]

Development of Doctrine: He Will Teach You . . . [2-17-91; rev. May 1996]

Overview of Development of Doctrine (TV Interview) [5-1-99]

William Webster’s Misunderstanding of Development of Doctrine [2000]

Development of Doctrine: Patristic & Historical Development (Featuring Much Documentation from St. Augustine, St. Vincent of Lerins, St. Thomas Aquinas, Vatican I, Popes Pius IX, Pius X, Etc.) [3-19-02]

Catholic Synthesis of Development & “Believed Always by All” [3-19-02]

Was Cardinal Newman a Modernist?: Pope St. Pius X vs. Anti-Catholic Polemicist David T. King (Development, not Evolution of Doctrine) [1-20-04]

A Brief Introduction to the Development of Doctrine [8-30-06]

Development of Catholic Doctrine: A Primer [National Catholic Register, 1-5-18]

C. S. Lewis on Inevitable Development of Doctrine [2-17-19]

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(originally posted on my website on 17 October 2002)

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Summary: All Christians have always accepted development of doctrine. Catholics and Protestants dispute which doctrines are developments and which are (actually or supposedly) corruptions.

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2021-03-09T15:07:08-04:00

One Peter Five‘s Page Views Have Decreased by Two-Thirds Due Possibly to Highlighting More “Positive” Materials

It’s a rare occasion that I totally agree with a Steve Skojec article (since he is almost Exhibit #1 of a textbook radical Catholic reactionary), but as one who rejoices in 1) truth and 2) Christian unity, I’m happy to see it. Steve (head honcho at One Peter Five), recently wrote a piece called “Negativity is a Drug, And We’re Hooked” (3-5-21). He opined:

Social media is bad. The word “toxic” is overused, I suppose, but it’s also probably an understatement. We get online and we think we’re just going to read a few things or have a couple of interesting discussions, but the next thing we know, our blood starts boiling, we start throwing elbows, and maybe we even lob a few jabs below the belt.

I do it. I know I do it. I’m angry about so much that’s going on, and sometimes I just want a good scrap, so I dig in.

Ironically, this is the opposite of what I’m trying to do with the content here. I want it to be educational, enlightening, and encouraging.

But I have to admit, I’m frustrated.

Last night, I complained (on social media; where else?) about how we published a fantastic, moving, uplifting story about an incredible saint — St. Marianne Cope — who took the awful lives of lepers and turned them into something full of beauty and wonder, but that it only had 27 shares.

Meanwhile, my snarky post about Cardinal Wuerl getting millions of dollars in retirement hit 500 shares right out of the gate. . . .

But it had me up last night thinking about all of this stuff. About the fact that since I started trying to do a lot more St. Marianne Cope-type pieces and fewer Wuerl-type pieces, traffic on this website has dropped faster than Gavin Newsome’s approval rating. Whereas in 2018, at the height of all the Vigano revelations, we were getting somewhere between 25-30K pageviews a day, lately, we’re at fewer than 10K. In fact, we haven’t broken the 10K barrier in the past 30 days. Not even once. There could be several reasons for this, but traffic metrics over time tend to be a semi-reliable indicator about whether the content you’re producing is what your audience wants to consume.

This is utterly fascinating. Steve is nothing if not an angry, pessimistic, furious, doom-and-gloom, highly uncharitable ranter: particularly on his Twitter page, where he does little else, as I have thoroughly documented:

Steve Skojec: Mini-Pope & Oracle of Doom & Despair [4-20-20]

Apocalypse! Steve Skojec’s Pontifications vs. Vatican II [4-22-20]

Pseudo-Pope Skojo III Rebukes Real Pope Benedict XVI [5-9-20]

Pope Francis vs. the Gospel? Outrageous & Absurd Lies! (Anti-Catholic Protestant James White and Catholic Reactionary Steve Skojec Echo Each Other’s Gigantic Whoppers) [5-26-20]

Steve Skojec vs. Pope Francis: “Evil, the Devil’s Own, Deceiver, Destroyer, Monster, Heretic, Blasphemer, the Enemy Within, Bad Man, Hypocrite, Attacker of the Faithful, Pretender, Insincere, Unconverted” [6-23-20]

Steve Skojec’s De Facto Schism is Complete: By His Own Report [1-11-21]

Apparently, however, he is sincerely trying — to his credit — to now do something different on his website. I take him at his word. He does appear to let out his seemingly endless anger and fury on his “Mr. Hyde” Twitter page (which often gives one an impression of “late-at-night / half-drunk” ravings), and the (now increasing in frequency) amiable, good ol’ guy “Dr. Jekyll” stuff on his web page.

That said, what he writes above is of real interest, from a “religious sociology” perspective. I’ve long noted that an overall mindset of “negativity” and pope-bashing are all the rage and fashionable and chic as can be. People can’t wait to jump onto this bandwagon, because they want to be liked by their buddies and because people are sheep. Just today in a private Facebook PM I wrote, “The fashionable thing today is obviously pope-bashing.”

Twenty years ago, Catholic apologetics was reaching perhaps its peak popularity. It has since drastically declined and bitching and moaning ad nauseam about Pope Francis (for illegitimate and irrational reasons) is all the rage (pun half-intended).

I’ve been writing about the spiritual harmfulness and dead end of negativity and the pessimistic outlook for over twenty years (delighted to have Steve “on-board” at long last). Chapter two of my 2002 book,  Reflections on Radical Catholic Reactionaries was entitled, “Faith and Optimism vs. Pessimism.” Here are some excerpts:

Complaints, undue criticism, condemnation, disobedience, dissent, bickering, moaning and groaning, silly and self-important pontifications, whining, waxing eloquently cynical: that’s what we so often see in the reactionary movement. It’s extremely unseemly, unedifying, and unappealing.

It is denied that the reactionary position is characterized by an attitude of pessimism and lack of faith. “Out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks” (Matthew 12:34). One reads the sort of comments reactionaries habitually make, and one is more than justified in arriving at certain conclusions, if words mean anything at all. If individual proponents of these viewpoints happen to have a joyful heart, then they would do well to include some positive remarks in public also. How about an article once in a while like “What’s Good in the Church?”? A gloomy “quasi-defectibility” outlook is contrary to a truly Catholic faith in God’s guidance of His Church. Many reactionary writings do not convey this sort of hope and sunny optimism at all.

The alarmist reactionary rhetoric gets worse and worse, as with all conspiratorial schemes and theories trumped-up in order to explain things that people find themselves unable to comprehend or understand (therefore, they disobey and lose confidence in their ecclesiastical superiors). Like Job’s comforters, reactionaries fail to see that God is at work: though mysterious and inexplicable His ways may continue to be. A little reading of Church history (the bleak periods) might do wonders.

Faith and perseverance must enter in, in such troubled times in the Church. We need to understand that Church history repeatedly shows this pattern; that even the early Church had tremendous scandal and hypocrisy, and — above all — that the Church is indefectible. That’s why the orthodox Catholic remains forever an optimist. We readily acknowledge that modernism is rampant; we deny that it can ever overthrow the Church. One must have faith. reactionaries ought to read the book of Job. Tough times afflict the Church as well as the individual. It is to be expected. Why does that surprise reactionaries? Liberalism, heterodoxy, and unbelief are never surprising, but a Church that remains orthodox despite all is perpetually a delightful and heartening “surprise.” The glory of the Church (like that of the saints) is not that it has no problems, but that it always sees a way through the problems. It always conquers them. Heresy has no life of its own, so it always fails eventually, while the Church marches on (as in Chesterton’s marvelous reflections on “orthodoxy”). It does so because it is God’s own Church, and God cannot fail.

Reactionaryism is profoundly pessimistic, which is fitting for Buddhists, Hindus, or nihilists, but not Christians. So God has given up on His Church? Even our Lord Jesus had His Judas, and St. Paul had his Corinthian church. God saw fit to include in the ancestry of Jesus a harlot (Rahab) and a murderer and adulterer (David). There was no “golden era,” if by that one means a period without serious ecclesiastical problems. I think reactionaries continue to believe in original sin, and the world, the flesh, and the devil. The Church is to be reborn in the caves and backwaters of Pharisaical reactionary gatherings? I think not.

Things take time. The pessimist always concentrates on present miseries, while the optimist, idealist, or person exercising faith look at the good things that will come in the future, as the present decadent cycle comes to a close and the new revival starts to gradually pick up momentum. We need only look back at Church history to see what is coming next (excepting Christ’s return, of course). If the Second Coming isn’t imminent, then it is almost certain that major revival will come in this century.

The indefectibility of the Catholic Church and its divine protection from the Holy Spirit is our grounds (in faith) that things will get better, and are, in fact, not as bad as they seem in the first place (at the deepest, spiritual level). Joy rests on grounds other than circumstances. Joy comes from inner peace of the soul, by the grace of God, and a Christian can possess it even in a concentration camp, or with incurable cancer. The saints even truly embraced suffering with joy, as a privilege and honor and a way to help save souls. I am referring to the optimism of the eye of faith: the assurance that God knows what He is doing, and that history has a purpose: that all things are in His Providence, though He obviously doesn’t will all things in His perfect will. He allows bad things, and then uses them for His own purposes. The modernist crisis is no different than anything else; God uses it for His benevolent ends, and is not mocked. Doom-and-gloom and Chicken Little pessimism are contrary to faith and the true Catholic spirit.

I suspect that a lot of the reactionary analysis of the crisis in the Church comes down to temperament. Some people are of a state of mind and emotional make-up that they are naturally pessimists. They may struggle with depression or find it difficult to be of good cheer, with regard to day-to-day life. They might be going through any number of things that are legitimately troubling. Sensitive souls will be harmed and troubled more by evil and “things gone wrong” than less sensitive types. We mustn’t pretend that temperaments and personality types have no effect on our worldviews. They certainly do. Nevertheless, I think there are real, objectively measured grounds for optimism with regard to the Church situation, other than simply a feel-good delusion based on mere temperamental factors and circumstances.

But getting back to our immediate topic: the traffic at One Peter Five has declined by two-thirds in about two-and-a-half-years? And the reason Skojec offers is much more deliberate emphasis on “uplifting” stories like that of St. Marianne Cope? Is his analysis of the cause correct? I suspect that he is half-correct.

The indisputable fact is that negativity, pope-bashing, moaning about the Church and bishops, etc. will garner great interest and hits (as Skojec proves by noting the immediate impact of the Cardinal Wuerl article). That’s what we know for sure. Examples today are innumerable, so I need not even provide any here. So does it follow simply because Steve and One Peter Five have decided to actually put more emphasis on optimistic, uplifting material, that this is why they are losing hits?

Again, I think that is partially correct. My theory is that his page views are considerably declining not because people like “negative” material more than positive — which is true enough — but (more deeply) because the very raison d’être of the existence of One Peter Five is negativity and pope-bashing. People have visited there to read the “latest” in alleged, imaginary Pope Francis scandals and to despise and rant and rave against Catholics who don’t see everything in utterly dark, tragic tones as they do.

All the leading, most popular reactionary Catholic sites (e.g., The Remnant, Michael Voris’ Church Militantly Angry, Lifesite News, Rorate Caeli, Taylor Marshall’s video pontifications) are of this nature, because (to be a bit cynical) they know that doing so is 1) their distinctiveness over against other sites, and 2) what will bring in umpteen visitors and subscribers (which in turn generates good ol’ $$$). They view their mission to “save the Church” from Pope Francis, Vatican II et al, as of the utmost importance and necessity.

This theory may be true or not. I offer it as a long-time social media participant myself (website since 1997) and also as an amateur religious sociologist (my major in college was actually sociology). But whether it is true or not, Steve and the folks at 1P5 have a big and momentous decision to make:

1) keep producing positive and non-polemical, non-polarizing articles and see the page views continue to drop (but do it because it is right and edifying),

or

2) retain the formerly dominant negative emphasis and get plenty of people coming round.

That’s their choice, and to decide which route to go will require much internal discussion as to what is their essential self-conceived mission. Jesus said that “the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few” (Mt 7:14, RSV). And He also noted that “the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many” (Mt 7:13). And: “when the Son of man comes, will he find faith on earth?” (Lk 18:8). He told us to expect to be hated by “all” (Hebraic hyperbole, but still almost true) if we follow Him as we should, and to take up our cross of discipleship, and “Woe to you, when all men speak well of you, for so their fathers did to the false prophets” (Lk 6:26).

Steve knows all this. Christianity’s not a popularity contest. Thus, every Catholic apostolate has to decide for itself whether it will seek purely a “business model” or “Madison Avenue” approach and motivation, or a far less popular, go-against-the-grain “discipleship” orientation. Is the main goal is to be “popular” and appeal to the most people possible (which usually amounts to some sort of fundamental compromise of principle), or is it to follow Jesus and present the “narrow way” that He taught, no matter what personal and/or financial cost is involved?

I’m not saying that all business techniques and strategies are wrong, or that it’s a total “either/or” dichotomy. Not at all; I’m only noting that business and worldly “success” (meaning big numbers and big money) cannot be our ultimate allegiance, just as Jesus taught that riches could not be the ultimate allegiance of the rich young ruler. In order to follow Jesus, he had to give them up. The Bible is not against riches per se, but rather, riches (or any pet project or endeavor, for that matter) that have become a person’s idol.

Steve Skojec is onto something, and in my opinion, he is at a crossroads. He “knows too much.” If he follows his seeming “gut instinct” expressed in this article he will have to take a hit, business-wise, and lose many previous supporters (and will have to fight and endure much turmoil and misery to do so). But it would be the right thing to do. If he rejects this path, on the other hand, the opposite result will occur: lots of continuing visitors and enough income to keep on the path he has usually taken with 1P5, but eventual spiritual ruin and shipwreck, or at the very least, severe personal disenchantment and burnout.

His choice. This is a potentially momentous development to keep an eye on and to pray much about.

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Photo credit: Anthony Parkes: narrow path around Grindslow Knoll, near Edale, Derbyshire, Great Britain [Geograph / CC BY-SA 2.0 license]

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Summary: Steve Skojec of One Peter Five has expressed criticism of the emphasis on “negativity” and noted that his site’s page views have dropped quite a bit, presumably as a result of trying to be more positive. I draw out the implications of his analysis.

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