2021-04-19T12:22:10-04:00

Michael J. Alter is the author of the copiously researched, 913-page volume, The Resurrection: a Critical Inquiry (2015). I initially offered  59 “brief” replies to as many alleged New Testament contradictions (March 2021). We later engaged in amiable correspondence and decided to enter into a major ongoing dialogue about his book. He graciously sent me a PDF file of it, free of charge, for my review, and has committed himself to counter-response as well: a very rare trait these days. All of this is, I think, mightily impressive.

Mike describes himself as “of the Jewish faith” but is quick to point out that labels are often “misleading” and “divisive” (I agree to a large extent). He continues to be influenced by, for example, “Reformed, Conservative, Orthodox, and Chabad” variants of Judaism and learns “from those of other faiths, the secular, the non-theists, etc.” Fair enough. I have a great many influences, too, am very ecumenical, and am a great admirer of Judaism, as I told Michael in a combox comment on my blog.

He says his book “can be described as Jewish apologetics” and one that provides reasons for “why members of the Jewish community should not convert to Christianity.” I will be writing many critiques of the book and we’ll be engaging in ongoing discussion for likely a long time. I’m quite excited about it and eagerly enjoy the dialogue and debate. This is a rare opportunity these days and I am most grateful for Mike’s willingness to interact, minus any personal hostility.

I use RSV for all Bible verses that I cite. His words will be in blue.

*****

Alter wrote:

Another reason that it may be speculated that Jesus’s crucifixion did not take place in Nisan is because of the branches and palm trees detailed
in several of the narratives. Mark 11:8 and Matthew 21:8 reported that “branches from the trees” were cut down and used as straw on the road but omitted details about what type of tree the branches came from. Nonetheless, Mark and Matthew clearly implied two significant facts: (1) these trees were standing in Jerusalem and (2) the branches were leafy. . . . 

[I]n Mark, the branches are leafy and such is the literal reading in the NSRV. (pp. 55-56)

Having asserted that both Matthew and Mark refer to “leafy” branches, he then examines the opinion of some linguistic aids and contradictorily concludes that “Matthew has either omitted or deleted any allusion or suggestion of leafy branches” (p. 56). With this confusion, it’s hard to  know exactly what he is arguing. But then he adds another layer of argument by claiming:

The problem with Mark’s narrative is that there are no leafy branches in March (Nisan) during the time of Passover in Jerusalem because it is the wrong season. Therefore, either the narrative or the time sequence, the six days before the Passion and as a prelude to the Passover, is fallacious. (p. 56)

Not so fast. There is this famous hill in Jerusalem called the Mount of Olives, which was, in fact, where Jesus was (Mt 21:1; Mk 11:1) before His entry into Jerusalem (Mt 21:10; Mk 11:11; Jn 12:12). And of course, it has a lot of olive trees (at the base of it is also the Garden of Gethsemane: with many old olive trees). I was there in October 2014 and saw all this myself.

Now, would olive trees have leaves in March or April? Yes. On the Quora website is an article: “Do olive trees lose their leaves in winter?” Andy Lee, who studied Bacteriology & Cell Biology in college, commented: “Olive trees are evergreen trees and not deciduous. Olive trees lose some of their leaves in cycles throughout the year but never all at one time on purpose.” At Louisiana State University, extensive research has been done on olive trees. In a university article on the topic, it’s observed that:

They are considered evergreen tropical trees . . .

Olive trees are winter-hardy down to 10 to 15 degrees Fahrenheit . . .

Some of the characteristics that make this plant interesting for landscapes are its simple elliptic leaves that display a green-blue-silver color year-round.

So much for Alter’s attempted refutation of Mark’s account. He claimed, “there are no leafy branches in March (Nisan) during the time of Passover in Jerusalem.” This is untrue. Leafy branches of olive trees are present year-round. See a photograph of several olive trees on the Mount of Olives during snowfall, taken on 2 March 2012. One can see that they all still have their foliage.

So this fits the bill in every respect for a tree with 1) leafy branches, 2) with foliage in early spring (March or April), 3) in Jerusalem, and 4) even in the immediate vicinity of where Jesus entered Jerusalem and was hailed with “Hosanna!” Since (as Alter agrees) Mark didn’t specify which tree he was referring to, one can reasonably opine that it is the olive tree, since everything matches up perfectly. Nehemiah 8:15 is similar: “. . . “Go out to the hills and bring branches of olive, wild olive, myrtle, palm, and other leafy trees to make booths, . . .”

Alter cites Leviticus 23:39-40 as related to “the fall harvest festival of Succoth” (p. 56). Here is the second verse in RSV: “And you shall take on the first day the fruit of goodly trees, branches of palm trees, and boughs of leafy trees, and willows of the brook; . . .” He had noted that the word for “branches” in both KJV and RSV for Matthew 21:8 is klados (Strong’s word #2798).

In the Greek Septuagint for Leviticus 23:40, it’s used for “branches” and (I believe, but not sure) also “boughs.” In Jeremiah 11:16 it’s used for “branches” of an “olive tree.” In Ezekiel 31:7 and 31:9 it is again translated “branches” in RSV, and refers to “a cedar in Lebanon” (31:3). In Daniel 4:12, 14, 21 it’s rendered as “branches” of an undisclosed type of tree of “great” height (4:10). In Hosea 14:6 it is rendered as “shoots” in RSV: of (strongly implied) an olive tree. Zechariah 4:12 again has “branches” of “olive trees.”

Moving over to the New Testament, we find that klados is used ten other times (always rendered “branch[es]” in RSV). In Matthew 13:32, Mark 4:32, and Luke 13:19 it refers to a mustard tree (see Mt 13:31 and Mk 4:31), in Matthew 24:32 and Mark 13:28, a fig tree. In Romans 11:16-19, 21 (five usages) it refers again to an olive tree (see 11:17, 24). The balance of deductive and biblical cross-reference evidence, then, points to Matthew 21:8 referring to an olive tree. But it doesn’t specify the type of tree, so we can’t know for sure.

The mustard tree is an “evergreen shrub” with green oval leaves. But the leaves of fig trees do fall in the winter.

Therefore, there is no insuperable problem of season and a complete lack of “leafy branches” in Jerusalem in the early spring. This is simply not an issue. Both Matthew and Mark (as we saw from the word study) could be referring to (much more likely) olive leaves, or also (in either case) possibly mustard leaves. Olive trees, however, were a lot more common in Israel (mentioned in the Hebrew Bible 46 times), whereas mustard trees receive zero mentions in the Hebrew Bible and only five references in the New Testament.

This leaves us with the consideration of the only mention of palm leaves connected with Palm Sunday:

John 12:13 So they took branches of palm trees and went out to meet him, crying, “Hosanna! Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord, even the King of Israel!”

Alter thinks this is a “controversy.” Why? He thinks the issue is “whether or not palm trees grew in Jerusalem and were readily available” (p. 57). Alter raises these issues but then helpfully resolves them himself. He cites a Bible scholar saying that palm trees and many other trees had disappeared from Jerusalem by Jesus’ time. But he cites another scholar saying that palm leaves could be obtained from the Jordan Valley. He cites a third scholar who points out that date palms are the plant or tree in question and that they require mean temperatures of 65 to flourish and become harmed if the temperature is below 20 Fahrenheit.

He then notes that date palms grew in Jericho, which is 3,280 feet lower in elevation than Jerusalem, and only 25 miles east. Jericho is called the “city of palms” in Deuteronomy 34:3 and 2 Chronicles 28:13. A thorough botanical description of the date palm states:

Depending on variety, age of a palm and environmental conditions, leaves of a date palm are 3 to 6 m long (4 m average) and have a normal life of 3 to 7 years. . . .

Unlike other fruit trees, dead or old leaves are not shed and do not drop on their own, but are removed under cultivation. An adult date palm has approximately 100 to 125 green leaves with an annual formation of 10 to 26 new leaves. The functional value of the leaf to the palm declines with age and no two leaves are the same age.

Date palms easily survive in Jericho all year-round, based on temperature data and averages. The mean minimum never dips below 43 degrees Fahrenheit in January or February or below 47 in December, while the mean maximum temperatures for those months are 53-58 degrees. The mean maximum is higher than 65 degrees for seven-and-a-half months of the year and is above 82 for three months. See a short video clip of date palms in Jericho, from March 2015.

In conclusion, none of the passages pose the slightest problem for the harmony of the Gospels. Mark and Matthew very likely refer to the leaves of olive trees, which could be obtained in Jerusalem, and the palm tree branches referred to in John 12:13 were easily obtainable at this time of year from date palms  in Jericho: just 25 miles away. The most likely scenario is that the crowds hailing Jesus had both olive leaves and palm tree “branches” or leaves. The texts do not contradict each other. Luke doesn’t mention the people having leaves, but so what? It’s not required that he do so. He doesn’t deny it.

***

Photo credit: 858106 (3-26-15): olive trees with flourishing leaves in late March [PixabayPixabay License]

Summary: Michael Alter asserted that during spring in Jerusalem, when Jesus entered the city on “Palm Sunday”, neither leafy branches (Mk, Mt) nor palm branches (Jn) were available. Wrong!

Tags: alleged Bible contradictions, alleged Resurrection contradictions, Bible “contradictions”, Bible “difficulties”, Bible Only, biblical inspiration, biblical prooftexts, biblical skeptics, biblical theology, exegesis, hermeneutics, Holy Bible, inerrancy, infallibility, Jewish anti-Christian polemics, Jewish apologetics, Jewish critique of Christianity, Jewish-Christian discussion, Michael J. Alter, New Testament, New Testament critics, New Testament skepticism, Resurrection “Contradictions”, Resurrection of Jesus, The Resurrection: A Critical Inquiry, palm leaves, Palm Sunday

2021-04-20T11:46:24-04:00

Michael J. Alter is the author of the copiously researched, 913-page volume, The Resurrection: a Critical Inquiry (2015). I initially offered  59 “brief” replies to as many alleged New Testament contradictions (March 2021). We later engaged in amiable correspondence and decided to enter into a major ongoing dialogue about his book. He graciously sent me a PDF file of it, free of charge, for my review, and has committed himself to counter-response as well: a very rare trait these days. All of this is, I think, mightily impressive.

Mike describes himself as “of the Jewish faith” but is quick to point out that labels are often “misleading” and “divisive” (I agree to a large extent). He continues to be influenced by, for example, “Reformed, Conservative, Orthodox, and Chabad” variants of Judaism and learns “from those of other faiths, the secular, the non-theists, etc.” Fair enough. I have a great many influences, too, am very ecumenical, and am a great admirer of Judaism, as I told Michael in a combox comment on my blog.

He says his book “can be described as Jewish apologetics” and one that provides reasons for “why members of the Jewish community should not convert to Christianity.” I will be writing many critiques of the book and we’ll be engaging in ongoing discussion for likely a long time. I’m quite excited about it and eagerly enjoy the dialogue and debate. This is a rare opportunity these days and I am most grateful for Mike’s willingness to interact, minus any personal hostility.

I use RSV for all Bible verses that I cite. His words will be in blue.

*****

Alter claimed on page 53 of his book that “Jesus never taught publicly that he was the Messiah” (his italics). Some question arises as to what he meant by “publicly”. I take it to mean that saying it to His disciples only (Mt 16:16-20; see 24:3: “the disciples came to him privately”) or to single persons like the woman at the well (Jn 4:25-26), or the two disciples on the road to Emmaus (Lk 24:25-27) are not public.

On the other hand, when He said it to the high priest (Mk 14:61-62; cf. Mt 26:63-65; Lk 22:67-71) there was a group present:

Mark 14:53, 55-56, 64 And they led Jesus to the high priest; and all the chief priests and the elders and the scribes were assembled. . . . [55] Now the chief priests and the whole council sought testimony against Jesus to put him to death; but they found none. [56] For many bore false witness against him . . . [64] . . . they all condemned him as deserving death.

Matthew 26:57, 59-60 Then those who had seized Jesus led him to Ca’iaphas the high priest, where the scribes and the elders had gathered. . . . [59] . . . chief priests and the whole council sought false testimony against Jesus that they might put him to death, [60] but they found none, though many false witnesses came forward. . . .

Luke 22:66 . . . the assembly of the elders of the people gathered together, both chief priests and scribes; and they led him away to their council . . .

Alter could, I suppose, maintain that this is still not public, since it was a private meeting of high dignitaries. In any event, Jesus claimed to be the Messiah in this instance with many people present. Pontius Pilate also said to “the crowd” (Mt 27:15) twice: “Jesus who is called Christ [Greek for Messiah]” (27:17, 22). Moreover, Jesus’ appearance before Pontius Pilate as reported in Luke was before the “multitudes” and included a messianic claim:

Luke 23:1-4 Then the whole company of them arose, and brought him before Pilate. [2] And they began to accuse him, saying, “We found this man perverting our nation, and forbidding us to give tribute to Caesar, and saying that he himself is Christ a king.” [3] And Pilate asked him, “Are you the King of the Jews?” And he answered him, “You have said so.” [4] And Pilate said to the chief priests and the multitudes, “I find no crime in this man.”

But there is much more data to consider. The best proof that Jesus claimed to be the Messiah in public is His constant use of “son the man”: a well-known messianic description drawn from Daniel:

Daniel 7:13-14 I saw in the night visions, and behold, with the clouds of heaven there came one like a son of man, and he came to the Ancient of Days and was presented before him. [14] And to him was given dominion and glory and kingdom, that all peoples, nations, and languages should serve him; his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom one that shall not be destroyed.

Jesus clearly alluded to this and meant that He was identical to “the son of man” in this passage; that is, the Messiah, in the same context in which He was responding affirmatively to the question, “Are you the Christ [Messiah]?”:

Mark 14:61-62 . . . Again the high priest asked him, “Are you the Christ, the Son of the Blessed?” [62] And Jesus said, “I am; and you will see the Son of man seated at the right hand of Power, and coming with the clouds of heaven.”

Matthew 26:63-64 And the high priest said to him, “I adjure you by the living God, tell us if you are the Christ, the Son of God.”
[64] Jesus said to him, “You have said so. But I tell you, hereafter you will see the Son of man seated at the right hand of Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.”

Luke 22:67-70 “If you are the Christ, tell us.” But he said to them, “If I tell you, you will not believe; [68] and if I ask you, you will not answer. [69] But from now on the Son of man shall be seated at the right hand of the power of God.” [70] And they all said, “Are you the Son of God, then?” And he said to them, “You say that I am.”

The reactions and words of the high priest and the assembly show beyond all doubt that they accepted the messianic nature of Daniel 7: applied by Jesus to Himself, and also that claiming to be Messiah and “son of man” is the equivalent to being the “Son of God” as well (cf. Mt 16:16: “Simon Peter replied, ‘You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.’ “; also John 19:7: “The Jews answered him, ‘We have a law, and by that law he ought to die, because he has made himself the Son of God.’ “).

Jesus claimed to be the “Son of God” at “the feast of the Dedication at Jerusalem; . . . Jesus was walking in the temple, in the portico of Solomon” (Jn 10:22-23). At that public place at a public feast the following exchange occurred:

John 10:24-36 So the Jews gathered round him and said to him, “How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Christ, tell us plainly.” [25] Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father’s name, they bear witness to me; [26] but you do not believe, because you do not belong to my sheep. [27] My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me; [28] and I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish, and no one shall snatch them out of my hand. [29] My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. [30] I and the Father are one.” [31] The Jews took up stones again to stone him. [32] Jesus answered them, “I have shown you many good works from the Father; for which of these do you stone me?” [33] The Jews answered him, “It is not for a good work that we stone you but for blasphemy; because you, being a man, make yourself God.” [34] Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your law, `I said, you are gods’? [35] If he called them gods to whom the word of God came (and scripture cannot be broken), [36] do you say of him whom the Father consecrated and sent into the world, `You are blaspheming,’ because I said, `I am the Son of God’? (cf. the similar but apparently less public John 5:17-40)

In these extraordinary public words, Jesus directly claimed to be the Messiah (10:24-25), and the equivalent “Son of God”: both directly (10:36) and by very strong indirect deduction, by constant reference to God being His “Father” in a profound sense that didn’t apply to every Jew. He claimed to be God, by claiming equality with God the father (10:30): which the Jews perfectly understood (10:33), and reacted to by attempting to stone Him for blasphemy (10:31, 33, 36), and He claimed to be the Savior of mankind (10:28): a thing which can only apply to God (Is 43:3, 11; 45:15, 21; 49:26; 60:16; 63:8; Hos 13:4).

Solomon’s portico or porch was undeniably a public gathering place. It’s referred to again in Acts:

Acts 3:11-12 . . . all the people ran together to them in the portico called Solomon’s, astounded. [12] And when Peter saw it he addressed the people, . . .

Acts 4:1-2 And as they were speaking to the people, the priests and the captain of the temple and the Sad’ducees came upon them, [2] annoyed because they were teaching the people . . .

This is the same place where Jesus gave His address in John 10:24-26, according to John 10:23. PUBLIC! The Jewish historian Josephus (Ant. xx.9.7) described it as having “walls that reached 400 cubits [in length].” 400 cubits is equal to 600 feet (almost 183 meters): which is two (American) football fields in length. Clearly, then, this was a large gathering place, is described as such in Acts 3:11-12 and 4:1-2, and is, therefore, quite “public.” Jesus explicitly claimed to be Messiah there and not only the Son of God but God the Son (which is why He was almost stoned for blasphemy, because the scribes and elders obviously disbelieved Him).

Does Jesus ever refer to Himself as “the son of man” (which we know is a messianic reference) in public besides in the “council” of the Jewish leaders and the “multitudes” addressed by Pilate? The answer is yes, and here’s the proof:

Mark 8:38 “For whoever is ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, of him will the Son of man also be ashamed, when he comes in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.” [spoken to “the multitude with his disciples”: 8:34]

Luke 11:29-32 When the crowds were increasing, he began to say, “This generation is an evil generation; it seeks a sign, but no sign shall be given to it except the sign of Jonah. [30] For as Jonah became a sign to the men of Nin’eveh, so will the Son of man be to this generation. [31] The queen of the South will arise at the judgment with the men of this generation and condemn them; for she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon, and behold, something greater than Solomon is here. [32] The men of Nin’eveh will arise at the judgment with this generation and condemn it; for they repented at the preaching of Jonah, and behold, something greater than Jonah is here.

We’ve thus seen lots of New Testament documentation of Jesus publicly claiming to be the Messiah. Yet Michael Alter curiously claimed in his book: “Jesus never taught publicly that he was the Messiah”. Lastly, the now manifest falsity of Jesus supposedly never claiming to be the Messiah in public also nullifies another of Alter’s arguments, that he had built upon that false premise. He wrote:

All the gospel accounts, except Luke’s, describe Jesus’s entry into Jerusalem with the people declaring Hosanna. “Hosanna” is the Greek rendering of a Hebrew phrase meaning “Save now” (Ps 118:25); “Blessed be he that cometh in the name of the LORD” is the next verse of that Psalm (Ps 118:26). From a Christian perspective, the crowds naturally connected this royal procession to the common hope in the coming of the Son of David, and the reception that they gave Jesus supposedly identified him as the Davidic Messiah who would deliver them from oppression. However, the Christian rationale behind this reception is impossible . . . (p. 53)

The “crowds” (Mt 21:9, 11) / “a great crowd” (Jn 12:12) / “all the city” that was / were “stirred” (Mt 21:10) cried, “Hosanna to the Son of David!” (Mt 21:9), “Blessed is the kingdom of our father David that is coming! Hosanna in the highest!” (Mk 11:10), and “Hosanna! Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord, even the King of Israel!” (Jn 12:13). Jesus not only did not rebuke such utterances; to the contrary, He accepted and defended them:

Matthew 21:15-16 But when the chief priests and the scribes saw the wonderful things that he did, and the children crying out in the temple, “Hosanna to the Son of David!” they were indignant; [16] and they said to him, “Do you hear what these are saying?” And Jesus said to them, “Yes; have you never read, ‘Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings thou hast brought perfect praise’?”

The parallel “Palm Sunday passage” in Luke elaborates upon the same oppositional dynamic and Jesus’ defense of the people’s acclamations of Him:

Luke 19:37-40 As he was now drawing near, at the descent of the Mount of Olives, the whole multitude of the disciples began to rejoice and praise God with a loud voice for all the mighty works that they had seen, [38] saying, “Blessed is the King who comes in the name of the Lord! Peace in heaven and glory in the highest!” [39] And some of the Pharisees in the multitude said to him, “Teacher, rebuke your disciples.” [40] He answered, “I tell you, if these were silent, the very stones would cry out.”

Therefore, this constitutes yet another public affirmation that He believed Himself to be the Messiah. The priests and scribes and “some of the Pharisees” were indignant precisely because they knew this was messianic language, which meant that He was accepting — in Jerusalem, near the holy temple — the public acclamation of Himself as the Messiah (a claim they utterly rejected). Earlier, it’s true that He wanted to avoid public recognition that He was the Messiah:

Matthew 16:20 Then he strictly charged the disciples to tell no one that he was the Christ.

Mark 8:29-30 And he asked them, “But who do you say that I am?” Peter answered him, “You are the Christ.” [30] And he charged them to tell no one about him.

That is, no doubt, some of the reason why Alter argued as he did. But later that “policy” changed, as evidenced by all the passages I produced above (which he somehow managed to overlook), to the extent that Jesus was telling all and sundry in the two-football-field-large Solomon’s portico that He was the Messiah and indeed, the incarnate God, referring to Himself with the messianic terminology “son of man” among the “multitude” and “crowds” and accepting messianic praise hearkening back to Psalm 118 on Palm Sunday. The latter event could hardly be more public than it was.

Case closed.

***

Photo credit: Selva Rasalingam as Jesus in the The Gospel of Luke (2016, Netflix USA) [Wikimedia CommonsCreative Commons CC0 1.0 Universal Public Domain Dedication]

Summary: Michael Alter asserted that Jesus never “publicly” claimed that He was the Messiah. I show how this is factually incorrect: particularly in light of His constant messianic self-identification as the “son of man”.

Tags: alleged Bible contradictions, alleged Resurrection contradictions, Bible “contradictions”, Bible “difficulties”, Bible Only, biblical inspiration, biblical prooftexts, biblical skeptics, biblical theology, exegesis, hermeneutics, Holy Bible, inerrancy, infallibility, Jewish anti-Christian polemics, Jewish apologetics, Jewish critique of Christianity, Jewish-Christian discussion, Michael J. Alter, New Testament, New Testament critics, New Testament skepticism, Resurrection “Contradictions”, Resurrection of Jesus, The Resurrection: A Critical Inquiry

***

2021-04-20T11:47:21-04:00

. . . Including the Analogy of Historical Skepticism Against Many Renowned Persons from the Hebrew Bible

Michael J. Alter is the author of the copiously researched, 913-page volume, The Resurrection: a Critical Inquiry (2015). I initially offered  59 “brief” replies to as many alleged New Testament contradictions (March 2021). We later engaged in amiable correspondence and decided to enter into a major ongoing dialogue about his book. He graciously sent me a PDF file of it, free of charge, for my review, and has committed himself to counter-response as well: a very rare trait these days. All of this is, I think, mightily impressive.

Mike describes himself as “of the Jewish faith” but is quick to point out that labels are often “misleading” and “divisive” (I agree to a large extent). He continues to be influenced by, for example, “Reformed, Conservative, Orthodox, and Chabad” variants of Judaism and learns “from those of other faiths, the secular, the non-theists, etc.” Fair enough. I have a great many influences, too, am very ecumenical, and am a great admirer of Judaism, as I told Michael in a combox comment on my blog.

He says his book “can be described as Jewish apologetics” and one that provides reasons for “why members of the Jewish community should not convert to Christianity.” I will be writing many critiques of the book and we’ll be engaging in ongoing discussion for likely a long time. I’m quite excited about it and eagerly enjoy the dialogue and debate. This is a rare opportunity these days and I am most grateful for Mike’s willingness to interact, minus any personal hostility.

His words will be in blue.

*****

Michael Alter devotes 18 pages (pp. 31-48) to the date that Jesus was killed. I contend that it’s all to no avail in the end because the New Testament (like the Hebrew Bible) exhibits virtually no concern for actual dates and precise, exact chronology. That sort of thinking is largely inherited from Roman culture. On page 34, Alter announces CONTRADICTION #1: The Year Jesus Was Crucified.” But it’s not a biblical contradiction at all because the date is never asserted. Therefore, what he is describing as a “contradiction” is only the usual, inevitable differences and disputes among historians, archaeologists, and various sorts of Bible scholars. That can hardly even be called a “contradiction” since it’s one of thousands of disagreements that scholars have amongst themselves. Alter states precisely that:

Theologians, New Testament scholars, historians, standard reference sources, evangelicals, and even evangelical organizations are divided regarding the exact “year” Jesus was crucified and resurrected. (p. 34)

To which I say: “ho hum” and “so what?”

Alter — in his usual excruciating and impressive detail (he read about 5,000 books and articles in the course of his research) — goes through all the various theories for different dates, summarizing their rationales. Most of the “eleven selected years” (p. 34) have one or only a few advocates: at least judging by the ones he references in his book. Three dates have quite a few more listed proponents: AD 29, 30, and 33. But Alter opines about the year 29:

The year 29 can absolutely be eliminated because in that year the Passover occurred at the beginning of the week. In addition, the date assumes a one year ministry. Consequently, this cannot be reconciled with any of the other evidence. The Passover cannot occur that early. (p. 40)

Prima facie, this sounds good enough for me. So that leaves two likely years, according to Alter’s survey of many scholars. He cites (on p. 41) a bunch of scholars who opt for AD 30. Finally, he concludes about AD 33: “Perhaps AD 33 is one of the most often cited years for Jesus’s death” (p. 43). Then he states in the objections section: “Others argue that year 33, with a Friday crucifixion does not provide for a literal seventy-two hours in the tomb” (p. 44). But 72 hours aren’t required to fulfill the saying, “three days and three nights”: according to how the ancient Jews construed time and these sorts of statements (as I have written about). In other words, it’ not a literal 72 hours being referred to. That’s our modern, precise Greek- and Roman- influenced thinking about time and sequence: not Hebraic thought.

In his Conclusion for the chapter he observes:

It must be remembered that Christian apologists . . . maintain that the year Jesus died and was resurrected is the most important and significant event in the history of mankind. (p. 47)

Sure; but again we must remember that it is not the exact year that is important; it’s the event. The above sentence ought to read (I submit): “Christian apologists maintain that Jesus’ death and Resurrection are the most important and significant events in the history of mankind.”

Alter then contrasts (on p. 47) this uncertainty with several events of known dates, such as the deaths of Alexander the Great, Julius Caesar, Herod the Great, Caesar Augustus, and Caligula, and the birth dates of Julius Caesar, Tiberias, etc. Most of the people and events mentioned were Roman. They kept precise dates. And this is my point. They thought like the Greeks, because they emulated them in many respects. But the Hebrews did not follow Greek thought. They had been Hellenized, it’s true, but they maintained key aspects of their culture and ways of thinking through the New Testament period.

Since Alter provided us with this chart of 16 precise dates, I’d like to share a lot of imprecise dates (even among the Greeks themselves), in order to show that this particular aspect of the debate is quite a mixed bag:

1) Strabo, Greek geographer and historian, died at some unknown date after AD 20.

2) Herodotus, the Greek “father of history” died around 408 BC.

3) Xenophon, Greek historian, died around 359 BC.

4) Aristophanes, Greek comic poet, died around 380 BC.

5) Thales, Greek philosopher, died around 546 BC.

6) Pythagoras, Greek philosopher and Mathematician, died around 495 BC.

When it comes to founders of some other religions, it gets far more inaccurate:

7) Siddhartha Gautama (Buddha), according to Wikipedia, is said to have been born in “c. 563 BCE or 480 BCE” and died “c. 483 BCE or 400 BCE.”

8) About Lao-Tze or Lao Tzu, founder of Taoism, it is stated in Wikipedia: “A semi-legendary figure, Lao Tzu was usually portrayed as a 6th-century BC contemporary of Confucius, but some modern historians consider him to have lived during the Warring States period of the 4th century BC.”

9) As for Zoroaster or Zarathustra: founder of Zoroastrianism, Wikipedia pitifully declares:

There is no scholarly consensus on when he lived. Some scholars, using linguistic and socio-cultural evidence, suggest a dating to somewhere in the second millennium BCE. Other scholars date him in the 7th and 6th century BCE . . . By any modern standard of historiography, no evidence can place him into a fixed period and the historicization surrounding him may be a part of a trend from before the 10th century CE that historicizes legends and myths.

How about the famous and influential figures in the Hebrew Bible and Judaism? How much do historians agree about them?:

10) Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob: if Jonathan wants to rely on historians for his arguments, and regard them as the “last word” when it comes to Christianity, let’s see how these three patriarchs of Judaism fare. Wikipedia (“Abraham”) summarizes:

In the early and middle 20th century, leading archaeologists such as William F. Albright and biblical scholars such as Albrecht Alt believed that the patriarchs and matriarchs were either real individuals or believable composites of people who lived in the “patriarchal age“, the 2nd millennium BCE. But, in the 1970s, new arguments concerning Israel’s past and the biblical texts challenged these views; these arguments can be found in Thomas L. Thompson‘s The Historicity of the Patriarchal Narratives (1974), and John Van Seters‘ Abraham in History and Tradition (1975). Thompson, a literary scholar, based his argument on archaeology and ancient texts. His thesis centered on the lack of compelling evidence that the patriarchs lived in the 2nd millennium BCE, and noted how certain biblical texts reflected first millennium conditions and concerns. Van Seters examined the patriarchal stories and argued that their names, social milieu, and messages strongly suggested that they were Iron Age creations. By the beginning of the 21st century, archaeologists had given up hope of recovering any context that would make Abraham, Isaac or Jacob credible historical figures.

There we go. If modern scholarship is the “hill we want to die on” then we have to die on it across the board. I don’t accept the research of the more skeptical historians and archaeologists (Albright being the quintessential “non-skeptical” example), because it’s based on erroneous premises. I stood in Israel in the place where Abraham is said to have met Melchizedek (according to our guide). I stood as close as I could get to the rock where Abraham was willing to sacrifice Isaac: where the first temple (and perhaps the later temples) stood. I’ve also written about possible archaeological evidences for Sodom and Gomorrah.

11) Moses: it’s the same as with Abraham: so declares Wikipedia (maybe even worse):

The modern scholarly consensus is that the biblical person of Moses is a mythical figure while also holding that “a Moses-like figure may have existed somewhere in the southern Transjordan in the mid-late 13th century B.C.” and that archeology is unable to confirm either way. Even though his name is Egyptian, no references to Moses appear in any Egyptian sources prior to the fourth century BCE, long after he is believed to have lived. No contemporary Egyptian sources mention Moses or the events of Exodus–Deuteronomy, nor has any archaeological evidence been discovered in Egypt or the Sinai wilderness to support the story in which he is the central figure.

I have argued that archaeology has not disproven the Exodus, as part of my apologetics replies to atheists, and I have also presented stunning archaeological evidence for Joshua’s altar on Mt. Ebal.

12) Joseph: let’s follow the scholars and “higher critics” to see what they think of this great biblical figure. Wikipedia summarizes:

The historicity of the Joseph narrative cannot be demonstrated. [footnote: “The majority of current scholars believe that the historicity of the Egyptian sojourn, exodus, and wilderness wandering that the Bible remembers cannot be demonstrated by historical methods.”] . . .

Hermann GunkelHugo Gressmann and Gerhard von Rad identified the story of Joseph as a literary composition, in the genre of romance, or the novella. As a novella, it is read as reworking legends and myths, in particular the motifs of his reburial in Canaan, associated with the Egyptian god Osiris. Others compare the burial of his bones at Shechem, with the disposal of Dionysus‘s bones at Delphi. For Schenke, the tradition of Joseph’s burial at Shechem is understood as a secondary, Israelitic historical interpretation woven around a more ancient Canaanite shrine in that area.

13) King David is barely considered as historical, and even when he is, for most of these “skeptical” / ultra-“critical” scholars neither he nor events related to him are anything like what the Bible describes; that is, if we are “gullible” enough to believe that they ever happened at all (see Wikipedia for the gory details).

Christians like myself, on the other hand, fully believe that he reigned over a significant kingdom starting around 1000 BC. I visited my namesake’s original city in 2014 when I visited Jerusalem. I walked beside the hill where ancient Jerusalem was and kept looking up at it in awe. I saw where David battled Goliath and collected stones from where he would have gotten them (souvenirs for my kids). I visited Khirbet Qeiyafa: a town from his time, and collected pottery there that may be 3,000 years old. So I believe it, because I believe the Bible, which has been shown to be historically accurate times without number. But the bulk of scholars apparently don’t (so we are now told).

Mr. Alter (here’s the thing) can’t have it both ways: accept the Hebrew Bible and Judaism in some semblance of traditional fashion, and at the same time the “word” of a head count of scholars, which he recruits for the purpose of skepticism towards the New Testament accounts of Jesus. The two don’t mix very well. If he wants to enlist them to question events in Jesus’ life, then all the more will they also take “down and out” pivotal events and people in Judaism.

14) Daniel: Wikipedia: “The consensus of modern scholars is that Daniel never existed, . . .”

All of this is going on with these skeptical, anti-biblical scholars and Michael Alter thinks it is significant and a “contradiction” that the bulk of scholars have basically concluded that Jesus died in either 30 or 33 AD? Seriously?

The uncertain dates extend well into the current era also. For example, I have compiled three books of quotations from the Church fathers: eminent men and teachers from the first to the eighth centuries. Oftentimes, the dates of their deaths and/or births are not known with certainty. I list 52 in one of my books. Out of those, 45 (an astonishing 87%) have dates of death or birth that are uncertain. Here they are:

Pope Clement of Rome (d. c. 101)

Ignatius of Antioch (50 – c. 110)

Theophilus (fl. 185-191)

Clement of Alexandria (c. 150-c. 215)

Tertullian (c. 160-c. 225)

Hippolytus (d.c. 236)

Origen (c. 185-c. 254)

Dionysius of Alexandria (d.c. 264)

Lactantius (c. 240-c. 320)

Eusebius of Caesaria [Church historian] (c. 265-c. 340)

Aphraates (c. 280-c. 345)

Hilary of Poitiers (c. 315-368)

Athanasius (c. 297-373)

Ephraem (c. 306-373)

Basil the Great (c. 330-379)

Optatus of Milevis (c. 320-c. 385)

Cyril of Jerusalem (c. 315-387)

Gregory Nazianzen (c. 330-c. 390)

Gregory of Nyssa (c. 335-c. 394)

Ambrose (c. 336-397)

Epiphanius (c. 315-403)

John Chrysostom (c. 345-407)

Jerome (c. 343-420)

Theodore of Mopsuestia (c. 350-428)

John Cassian (c. 360-c. 435)

Cyril of Alexandria (c. 376-444)

Theodotus (d.c. 445)

Sozomen [Church historian] (c. 375-c. 447)

Socrates Scholasticus [Church historian] (c. 379-c. 450)

Vincent of Lerins (d.c. 450)

Peter Chrysologus (c. 405-450)

Prosper of Aquitane (d.c. 455)

Patrick (c. 390-c. 460)

Pope Leo the Great (c. 400-461)

Theodoret of Cyr (c. 393-c. 466)

Caesar of Arles (c. 470-542)

Gregory of Tours (538-c. 594)

Pope Gregory the Great (c. 540-604)

Augustine of Canterbury (d. c. 605)

Sophronius of Jerusalem (c. 560-638)

Maximus the Confessor (c. 580-662)

Germanus of Constantinople (c. 634-c. 733)

Venerable Bede (c. 673-735)

Andrew of Crete (c. 660-740)

John Damascene (c. 645-c. 749)

Nor does it stop there. I wrote in one of my articles about 23 Catholic “proto-scientists” of the 12th and 13th centuries. Again, we find the same lack of precision: with uncertain birth or death dates or both for 17 of the 23 (74% ): including many men who are quite famous (e.g., St. Albert the Great and Roger Bacon). I could find many more historical examples, but I trust that my point is adequately made by now.

Alter states:

In fact, the precise year that Jesus died as well as the date or day of his birth is not known. Obviously the date of these occurrences should be
the most knowable events of the history of mankind, yet how is it possible that the dates of . . . the supreme events in the history of our world are totally unknown? . . . 

From this issue it is clear that nobody has the faintest idea when Jesus died! The year of Jesus’s crucifixion is unknown, . . . (p. 48)

Not the “faintest” idea? Is this not quite a bit of rhetorical exaggeration? Good ol’ Wikipedia informs us, after all, that, regarding the date of Jesus’ birth, “a majority of scholars assume a date between 6 BC and 4 BC.” So we have (even among our blessed scholars) a range of three years and two likely and plausible dates for His death  (30 or 33) and a range of three years for His birth. In light of everything else we have seen above, that’s very good.

And since the Bible never asserted either date as such, and doesn’t “care” about such things generally speaking, I contend that it is a non-issue altogether. We know enough. Yes, Christians indeed regard the events of His life as “supreme events in the history of our world” but it doesn’t follow at all (not in the slightest) that we must know the exact dates when they occurred in order to rationally believe them. We know more than enough, and according to biblical thinking the things themselves are far more important than exactly when they happened.

The analogy of Judaism is again instructive. Observant Jews for over 3,000 years have devoutly celebrated Passover every year. It commemorates an actual event (and a supernatural one at that), that occurred about the time of the Exodus. Yet the “consensus” of historians is that we have no evidence of the Exodus or that (even more strongly) it never happened at all, and they (and we) don’t know exactly when Moses was born or died.

Needless to say, these same historians would mock and deny the notion of Moses going up to a holy mountain, talking to God and receiving tablets with the Ten Commandments written by God Himself; as well as receiving also a great deal of oral tradition from God, to be passed down for thousands of years, as it has turned out. They would laugh about and deride what they consider foolish notions such as a parting of the Red Sea, the several plague miracles in Egypt, pillars of smoke and fire leading the Hebrews through the desert, manna falling from the sky, and Moses going up to Mt. Nebo and being buried by God. Nor would they believe that God was specially present above the ark of the covenant, between the wings of the golden cherubim. It’s all nonsense and mythology to them.

Does this historical skepticism stop Jews from observing Passover and the more traditional ones from continuing to painstakingly keep all 613 commandments of the Law of Moses: assuming all the while that both things are based on real history and a real person: Moses, who had a unique relationship with God? No. Why, then, is a date discrepancy (in opinions) of two or three years for Jesus’ birth and death supposedly an “issue” or a “contradiction”? I confess that I cannot for the life of me comprehend such an argument.

I believe all these things recorded in the Hebrew Bible, and it matters not a whit to me whether a bunch of hyper-critical, anti-supernaturalist, sometimes secular or atheist historians (and even less traditional adherents of Judaism), operating on a host of false and unsubstantiated (and often downright hostile) premises disbelieve all of them or not. There are also historians and archaeologists who do not deny these things, or at least take a neutral / non-hostile approach. It all depends on the premises that one chooses to accept and assume, in doing historiographical research.

Likewise, Jews celebrate Hannukah, or Chanuka every year, which commemorates a miracle when the temple was rededicated: most likely in 164 BC. It’s precisely the miraculous [historical] event that occurred, which is recalled and celebrated. The Talmud states:

For when the Greeks entered the Sanctuary, they defiled all the oils therein, and when the Hasmonean dynasty prevailed against and defeated them, they made search and found only one cruse of oil which lay with the seal of the kohen gadol (high priest), but which contained sufficient [oil] for one day’s lighting only; yet a miracle was wrought therein, and they lit [the lamp] therewith for eight days. The following year these [days] were appointed a Festival with [the recital of] Hallel and thanksgiving. (Shabbat 21b)

Yet the Wikipedia article on this Jewish holy day informs us that “The miracle of the oil is widely regarded as a legend and its authenticity has been questioned since the Middle Ages.” Once again, then, Judaism finds itself clashing with the all-knowing, unquestionable skeptical historians. Which is to be believed? I go with the reported miracle and Jewish religious belief and practice.

But back to Jesus: the view that He never existed is still considered fringe and extreme and is held by very few historians, though (oblivious to such trifles) atheists are currently becoming increasingly enthralled with this ultra-ludicrous mythology. It’s also obvious to one and all that we basically know when Jesus was born, too, because our entire system of determining what year it is (the “BC” and “AD” system) is derived from His life (specifically, the approximate year of His birth). The very terminology of “CVE” and “BCE” was designed to extricate itself from the historical connection to Jesus. As Wikipedia explains:

The term “Common Era” . . . became more widely used in the mid-19th century by Jewish religious scholars. Since the later 20th century, CE and BCE are popular in academic and scientific publications as culturally neutral terms. They are used by others who wish to be sensitive to non-Christians by not explicitly referring to Jesus as “Christ” nor as Dominus (“Lord”) through use of the other abbreviations.

I say that monotheists need to stick together and defend the Hebrew Bible against the atheists and radical secularists who only wish to tear it (along with the faith of traditional religious people) down. Abraham is regarded as a “father” by Jews, Christians, and Muslims alike. Are they all supposed to believe (because a bunch of pointy-headed historians “concluded”) that Abraham (along with many other notable biblical figures) was a mere mythical or legendary figure: akin to Odysseus, Hercules, Thor, Odin, or King Arthur? Do we really want to go down that road? The whole point of him being a father and patriarch is that he actually existed.

This is what Michael Alter is left with (by logical reduction and consistent logic across the board) if he insists on the “magisterium of the head count of scholars.” Given all of the massive skepticism outlined above, dates of Jesus’ birth and death within a range of just three or four years for both are almost literally “nothing” in comparison. I’ve scarcely given it a moment’s thought and I dare say that is probably true of 99.999% of all Christians who have ever lived.

In the same manner, every devout Jew observes Passover, without knowing what date the Exodus occurred, or the dates of Moses’ birth and death. All they care about is that the Passover miracle and the glorious Exodus actually happened in history, and were wrought by the hand of God. The lack of knowledge of exact dates are neither essentially important, nor any kind of “contradiction” against or disproof of Jewish religious belief in the actuality of this person and these events.

This is why I have no plans to write a book called, The Passover [or, Abraham or Moses, etc.]: A Critical Inquiry. But if I were, hypothetically, to write such a book, then I could use precisely the same “counting the heads of scholars” method that Mr. Alter uses to critique Christianity. And that ought to give him great pause, because it also demolishes any of his own Jewish beliefs (whatever the particulars of those may be) that claim to be based on historical events.

I would strongly contend that the historical component is altogether essential to Judaism — in any of its variant forms — and can’t possibly be removed from it, anymore than it can be removed from Christianity. Judaism minus the traditionally believed history is no longer Judaism at all, just as the New Testament ceased to be itself when Thomas Jefferson (a Unitarian) ridiculously took the scissors to it and removed all the miracles. A non-miraculous Christianity is no longer Christianity at all because (above all) if Jesus’ Resurrection is removed (as Michael Alter agrees), it is deprived of its essence. The same is true of a hollowed-out “Judaism” without the historical Exodus, God’s giving of the law specifically to the ancient Hebrews (in time and history), and historical persons Abraham and Moses.

***

Photo credit: Selva Rasalingam as Jesus in the The Gospel of Luke (2016, Netflix USA) [Wikimedia CommonsCreative Commons CC0 1.0 Universal Public Domain Dedication]

Summary: In “Resurrection Debate #2” Michael Alter makes an issue out of the inexact date of Jesus’ death. I retort that the Bible is indifferent and do a reductio ad absurdum of skeptical scholars and what they think of the historicity of figures from the Hebrew Bible.

Tags: alleged Bible contradictions, alleged Resurrection contradictions, Bible “contradictions”, Bible “difficulties”, Bible Only, biblical inspiration, biblical prooftexts, biblical skeptics, biblical theology, exegesis, hermeneutics, Holy Bible, inerrancy, infallibility, Jewish anti-Christian polemics, Jewish apologetics, Jewish critique of Christianity, Jewish-Christian discussion, Michael J. Alter, New Testament, New Testament critics, New Testament skepticism, Resurrection “Contradictions”, Resurrection of Jesus, The Resurrection: A Critical Inquiry

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2021-04-16T16:51:38-04:00

Michael J. Alter is the author of the copiously researched, 913-page volume, The Resurrection: a Critical Inquiry (2015). I initially offered  59 “brief” replies to as many alleged New Testament contradictions (March 2021). We later engaged in amiable correspondence and decided to enter into a major ongoing dialogue about his book. He graciously sent me a PDF file of it, free of charge, for my review, and has committed himself to counter-response as well: a very rare trait these days. All of this is, I think, mightily impressive.

Mike describes himself as “of the Jewish faith” but is quick to point out that labels are often “misleading” and “divisive” (I agree to a large extent). He continues to be influenced by, for example, “Reformed, Conservative, Orthodox, and Chabad” variants of Judaism and learns “from those of other faiths, the secular, the non-theists, etc.” Fair enough. I have a great many influences, too, am very ecumenical, and am a great admirer of Judaism, as I told Michael in a combox comment on my blog.

He says his book “can be described as Jewish apologetics” and one that provides reasons for “why members of the Jewish community should not convert to Christianity.” I will be writing many critiques of the book and we’ll be engaging in ongoing discussion for likely a long time. I’m quite excited about it and eagerly enjoy the dialogue and debate. This is a rare opportunity these days and I am most grateful for Mike’s willingness to interact, minus any personal hostility.

*****

You’ll soon discover that I have particular interests and am uninterested in other things. That will be true with regard to your book. I am primarily interested in demonstrating that alleged NT contradictions really aren’t so, or “defeating the defeaters”: as Protestant philosopher Alvin Plantinga likes to say. The idea is to question whether internal contradictions are present, and to refute each one that is alleged. That’s what I did so far in my 59 replies to your book: based on what I could read of it. So you already see what I will mostly be doing as I proceed.

*
It’s a “negative” sort of evidence for NT trustworthiness and internal consistency and cohesion. It doesn’t prove inspiration, but it is consistent with it; that is, inspired revelation would not and could not contain real contradictions. And it’s an objective enterprise: one of logic. Orthodox, traditional Christians like myself believe that the NT (and the OT) are ultimately “supervised” (quite different, however, from “dictated”), guided, and protected from error by God Himself, and that the results, therefore, are infallible (in the original autographs) and therefore, non-contradictory.
*
Where human authors, writing of their own accord, but inspired by God, may not have been intentionally seeking logical harmony with all other NT books (often not even knowing they existed), God saw to it that this harmony was in fact achieved. This is my presupposition, and it lies behind my view that the NT books are a coherent whole, and that cross-references from any one book are relevant to similar subject material in all the other books (one of the key premises of systematic theology, which I love).
*
Of course, this is a tenet of faith. One can hardly “prove” such a thing. Faith itself is (we say) consonant with reason and not antithetical to it at all. Reason can bolster it in quite a few ways; yet faith can never reduce to mere reason or philosophy. It is its own entity. And it is enabled by God’s grace. If “most” modern scholars reject these sorts of things, it is of little concern to me. From where I sit, they have adopted various false premises, leading to a loss of a faith they may have once had (whether Jewish or Christian), or preventing the attainment of such faith in the future. In our view, loss of faith, or never having had faith can’t help but harm their thinking processes as well.
*
In a word, they lack wisdom. I think much of liberal biblical scholarship and atheist “biblical scholarship” is outright and intrinsically dishonest. It is not approaching the Bible as it actually is, and is dedicated to forcing it into conceptions that it is not. I’m not a scholar and I can’t say that I have read 5,000 books like you or deal with this stuff on that level, but I do have some 40 years of experience debating atheists and defending the Bible and Christianity and (more broadly) theism.
*
Christianity cannot be reduced to philosophy or scholarship of the “pointy heads.” I’m not “anti-scholarship” at all; but I take a dim view of skeptical and theologically liberal scholarship (as you saw in my vigorous criticism of Fr. Raymond Brown). Catholics in particular believe that biblical scholarship from professed Catholics must seek to be in harmony with Church teachings and dogmas.
*
A lot of people don’t like that. Again it comes down to the beliefs of faith and one’s premises. Bertrand Russell maintained that St. Thomas Aquinas was not a philosopher because he was also a theologian and orthodox Catholic. For Russell, those two things were utterly incompatible. For St. Thomas (drawing largely from Aristotle) and virtually all Catholics, they are not at all. It’s two different things that are in harmony, just as science and faith / theology are also in harmony.
*
Many people view me as a fundamentally dishonest person, a sophist or special pleader, or even an outright liar because I am an apologist and defend a particular viewpoint. I respond that everyone has a viewpoint or a worldview, whether they acknowledge it or not, and they accept many axiomatic premises that cannot themselves be proven. A Catholic apologist simply has a few more ironclad premises than most, but it’s not an intrinsically dishonest enterprise.
*
This will give you an idea of how I approach these things, and where my main interest in your book lies. I will still have a lot to respond to, because you allege many contradictions. With atheists who propose many of these, the discussion often gets down to one about plausibility. I think I decisively refute a proposed contradiction, and they don’t see it at all, because they have these (arbitrary) notions that “the text shouldn’t read as it does, and should read a different way.” And of course they reject all miracles and even the honesty and integrity of the NT authors.
*
But on what basis can they say that (what the Bible writers should or shouldn’t have written if they were “honest” etc.)? It’s all arbitrary: as are all the convoluted, cynical theories they have about the NT writers being agenda-driven; special pleading sophists. Belief in biblical inspiration and internal coherence, on the other hand, is indeed a tenet of faith, but at least it leads to a consistent methodology of both respecting and analyzing the NT. It’s not inherently hostile to the NT.
*
These things that atheists constantly throw out as if they are Gospel Truths (ah, the irony!) can’t be objectively, reasonably argued, because there is nothing to base them on. You yourself wrote:  “there is no way to know what the writers were thinking when they constructed their narratives” (p. 26). Well, I think we can often have a good idea, but for sure no one can possibly “know” all these cynical theories that atheists dream up and fantasize about, regarding the construction of the NT and its purpose to deceive and manipulate: as they think. These are the true myths in play here, in my opinions; not the NT stories.
*
But most of the time, in resolving these “difficulties” the argument comes down to (from my perspective) atheist ignorance of biblical / Hebraic thinking (particularly the many non-western or non-Greek elements) and ancient near eastern culture and the meaning of the Hebrew or Greek words involved, as well as not grasping what is said about the same topic in other parts of the NT and OT.
*
Lastly, though I won’t be arguing matters of philosophy of religion (e.g., whether miracles occur, etc.) much at all, you might be interested in knowing that the book along these lines that profoundly influenced me was An Essay in Aid of a Grammar of Assent, by St. John Henry Cardinal Newman: who is my “intellectual hero” and the primary intellectual influence on my conversion to Catholicism from evangelical Protestantism in 1990 (development of doctrine as classically analyzed by him being the main element).
*
My Quotable Newman was published by a major Catholic publisher, and I self-published two more books of his quotations. His thinking in that book was absolutely extraordinary and anticipated subtle and profound aspects of philosophy of religion and religious and philosophical epistemology (tacit knowledge or implicit knowledge) later expounded upon by Michael Polanyi some eighty years later. It’s by far the most difficult and complex book I have ever read, but one of the most rewarding in its incredible richness and depth.
*
I’m rambling a bit, but perhaps you will find this helpful to understand my presuppositions and methodology.

***

Photo credit: Selva Rasalingam as Jesus in the The Gospel of Luke (2016, Netflix USA) [Wikimedia CommonsCreative Commons CC0 1.0 Universal Public Domain Dedication]

Summary: In the first of a series of dialogues (“Resurrection Debate”) with Jewish author Michael Alter, I lay out my fundamental premises with regard to biblical inspiration and alleged “contradictions.”

Tags: alleged Bible contradictions, alleged Resurrection contradictions, Bible “contradictions”, Bible “difficulties”, Bible Only, biblical inspiration, biblical prooftexts, biblical skeptics, New Testament critics, New Testament skepticism, biblical theology, New Testament, exegesis, hermeneutics, Holy Bible, inerrancy, infallibility, Jewish anti-Christian polemics, Jewish apologetics, Jewish critique of Christianity, Jewish-Christian discussion, Michael J. Alter, Resurrection “Contradictions”, Resurrection of Jesus, The Resurrection: A Critical Inquiry

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2021-04-10T16:11:04-04:00

Mark 16:17-18 and the Various Sign Miracles

Dr. David Madison is an atheist who was a Methodist minister for nine years: with a Ph.D. in Biblical Studies from Boston University.  I have replied to his videos or articles 44 times as of this writing. Thus far, I haven’t heard one peep back from him  (from 8-1-19 to 4-9-21). This certainly doesn’t suggest to me that he is very confident in his opinions. All I’ve seen is expressions of contempt from Dr. Madison and from his buddy, the atheist author, polemicist, and extraordinarily volatile John Loftus, who runs the ultra-insulting Debunking Christianity blog. Dr. Madison made his cramped, insulated mentality clear in a comment from 9-6-19:

[T]he burden of the apologist has become heavy indeed, and some don’t handle the anguish well. They vent and rage at critics, like toddlers throwing tantrums when a threadbare security blanket gets tossed out. We can smell their panic. Engaging with the ranters serves no purpose—any more than it does to engage with Flat-Earthers, Chemtrail conspiracy theorists, and those who argue that the moon landings were faked. . . . I prefer to engage with NON-obsessive-compulsive-hysterical Christians, those who have spotted rubbish in the Bible, and might already have one foot out the door.

Only preaching to the choir from Dr. Madison! One can’t be too careful in avoiding any criticism or challenge. John “you are an idiot!” Loftus even went to the length of changing his blog’s rules of engagement, so that he and Dr. Madison could avoid replying to yours truly, or even see notices of my substantive replies (er, sorry, rants, rather). He wrote in part:

Some angry Catholic apologist has been tagging our posts with his angry long-winded responses. . . . If any respectful person has a counter-argument or some counter-evidence then bring it. State your case in as few words as possible and then engage our commenters in a discussion. . . . I talked with David Madison who has been the target of these links and he’s in agreement with this decision. He’s planning to write something about one or more of these links in the near future.

Needless to say, I still await these long-promised replies to any of my critiques from good ol’ Dr. Madison. His words will be in blue.

Presently, I am replying to his article, “Remarkable Resistance to Rational Inquiry” (2-19-21).

*****

Many of the faithful . . . sense that religion has claimed too much. They know that the famous promise of the risen Jesus in Mark 16 just isn’t true, i.e., that baptized Christians—using Jesus’ name—will be able to “…cast out demons; they will speak in new tongues; they will pick up snakes in their hands, and if they drink any deadly thing, it will not hurt them; they will lay their hands on the sick, and they will recover.” (vv. 17-18)

These verses quality as Bible silliness (not really excused because they’re in the fake ending of Mark) and are disconfirmed by Christians in their daily lives. But there are still great expectations of God the Great Healer, with little more than faith to go on.

The only silly and dumbfounded person here is Dr. Madison: who should know much better than to make such a clueless argument. As so often, this involves non-literal genre of the Bible: a not uncommon occurrence. For example, hyperbole (exaggeration) is often used by Jesus. But in this instance it’s proverbial language: general statements that are often true, but which admit of many exceptions. In other words, this is not some hyper-literal statement that any and every Christian will be able to do any of these things anytime, at will.

No; rather, it’s a proverbial statement that among Christians as a whole, one will be able to observe all of these phenomena: demons being cast out (mostly the domain of the exorcist today), speaking in new tongues, not being hurt by poisonous snakes or poison in a drink, and healing the sick by touch.  We can easily show in several ways that this saying was not meant literally; that is, wasn’t intended to describe universal application.

I’ve already educated Dr. Madison three times (one / two / three) with regard to the true biblical teaching on healing, which is not universal or on command. I dealt with the topic of healing in the Bible early on in my apologetics apostolate (1982). But he never learns anything because he refuses to engage any criticism, let alone to be corrected; so he repeats the same hogwash over and over (apparently thinking his argument improves by repeating lies). He even buys the same tripe that some of the silliest, most gullible, and scripturally ignorant Christians (that he despises) accept. How ironic, huh? The “smart” atheist who believes the same ridiculous and unbiblical thing that fundamentalist ignoramuses do (i.e., that God supposedly heals all the time, upon command, as if He were a genie in a bottle) . . .

The way Jesus phrases it shows that He is talking generally about the collective of Christians: “these signs will accompany those who believe: in my name they will cast out demons; they will . . .” (Mk 16:17, RSV).

It’s like saying, “these things will accompany those who play basketball in the NBA: slam dunks, 55% three-point-shooting, triple-doubles, 20 rebounds a game, scoring of 50 points a game, and averages of 10 or more assists per game.”

We can see examples of individual Christians doing these things in the Bible. Speaking in tongues occurred on the Day of Pentecost (Acts 2:4-12) and on other occasions of new believers receiving the Holy Spirit (Acts 10:45-46; 19:6). St. Paul talks about “gifts of healing . . . the working of miracles . . . various kinds of tongues” (1 Cor 12:9-10) but specifically states that not everyone has every gift: “All these are inspired by one and the same Spirit, who apportions to each one individually as he wills” (12:11).

He nails down this point of diversity and not unanimity of every gift by comparing the spiritual gifts and the Church itself to different parts of the body (12:12-27). Then he reiterates the notion of different gifts for different Christians: “Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? [30] Do all possess gifts of healing? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret?” (12:29-30). This is a literal explanation of what Jesus expressed in a proverbial fashion. St. Paul is described as not being hurt by a snake:

Acts 28:3, 5-6 Paul had gathered a bundle of sticks and put them on the fire, when a viper came out because of the heat and fastened on his hand. . . . [5] He, however, shook off the creature into the fire and suffered no harm. [6] They waited, expecting him to swell up or suddenly fall down dead; but when they had waited a long time and saw no misfortune come to him, they changed their minds and said that he was a god.

Acts 8:7 states: “For unclean spirits came out of many who were possessed . . .” References to healing can be found in Acts 5:16 and 8:7.  The first says “all” were healed; the second says “many.” So it’s not true that all are supposed to be healed all the time. See my healing paper above for much more along those lines. Acts 28:8 refers specifically to Paul healing a man by laying his hands on him.

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Photo credit: St. Paul, shipwrecked on Malta, is attacked by a snake which he shakes off into a fire; it does not harm him and the onlookers take him for a god. Etching after J. Thornhill. This file comes from Wellcome Images, a website operated by Wellcome Trust, a global charitable foundation based in the United Kingdom. Refer to Wellcome blog post (archive). [Wikimedia CommonsCreative Commons Attribution 4.0 International license]

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Summary: Atheist Dr. David Madison appears to take everything in the Bible literally: leading him to the same silly conclusions as uneducated fundamentalists. I explain biblical proverbial language, so he (and many atheists like him) can get up to speed.

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Tags: alleged biblical contradictions, anti-Christian bigotry, anti-theism, anti-theists, atheism, atheist exegesis,  atheist hermeneutics, atheists, Bible “contradictions”,  contradictions in the Bible, critiques of Christianity, David Madison, Debunking Christianity, Madison Malarkey, biblical proverbial language

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2021-04-09T10:22:44-04:00

BensNewLogin (former adherent of Judaism and for a short time, Christianity) is an atheist who responded to my paper, “Problem of Good: More Difficult than Problem of Evil?” (4-3-21) in the combox underneath. His words will be in blue.

*****

So, you have asked me about the “problem of good“. Now I have some more time to write, but not as much time as I would like.

Thanks for responding and remaining civil, too.

I may not get around to answering your other questions about abortion, but this will do for now.

No need. I made the socratic point I wanted to make with DC Kurtz.

I don’t see that the existence of good is any kind of a problem,

“Good” itself is not a problem. The “problem of good” is in terms of atheism not being able too produce a rationale for why all human beings should be bound to some particular set of ethics, and how any atheist framework for same is inevitably arbitrary.

but then I don’t believe that humankind is inherently corrupt and evil. That would be Christians, and the basis for the Christian religion.

We believe in original sin, but we also believe that the way is open for any human being to be a very good human being, by way of God’s grace. All human beings have the capacity in their free will to be good and to do much good. It’s atheism that can only explain evil by environment, but that is often not nearly as sufficient an explanation as atheists seem to think. Christianity and Judaism before it uniquely explain the curiosity of human beings having the capacity for great good but also of sinking to the most depraved, wicked levels of evil.

As I will discuss later, good is no kind of a problem at all. We are social beings, and we must have morality in order to live together. It’s a simple as that.

No one disagrees with that. It’s not at issue. I presuppose it in my outlook and this current discussion.

For the record, I tried Christianity when I was in my late teens. I read everything I could by CS Lewis. He had a lot to say that was good, and a lot that was absolute nonsense. Eventually, I found I could not buy the Christian story. But it was Christianity itself that convinced me of that.

Or a caricature of it; what you falsely thought it was. No deconversion story I have ever seen lacked massive use of straw men and caricature as the basis for rejecting “Christianity.”

But back to your query. There are three assumptions that your question rests on.

Of course.

The first is that morals somehow exist apart from people. There is practically no evidence that this is so, though there are plenty of assertions that it is so. If there is such a moral principle, I suspect it would be labeled love. I also suspect that you and I would mean very different things by the use of the word. That has been my experience for most of my life: what religion means by love and what the rest of us might mean by love.

I think its objective existence is explained by the fact that all cultures in the world at all times basically agree on fundamental moral precepts. If individuals and circumstances were actually the cause, I don’t believe this would be the case.

The simplest definition of love is “desiring the best for others.”

The second assumption is that there is such a thing as an immutable moral principle. There has never been a moral principle in the history of the world that has been immutable.

Violation in practice (which is what I believe you are implying here) is not proof that the principle itself does not exist.

When we’re discussing the death penalty, we are told that all life is sacred, and killing another person is wrong. If it is immutable, then killing another person is ALWAYS wrong. But of course, there are immediate exceptions always to be made.

It’s the distinction between killing and murder. They are two different things. “Thou shalt not kill” is an unfortunate translation in the KJV, which has confused millions of people for five centuries now. The correct rendering of the Hebrew is “Thou shalt not murder”.

And funny about that, they are almost always made by people who are deeply religious. I learned this 43 years ago when I formed my initial opposition to the death penalty. Antiabortion people, calling themselves “pro-life”— a sarcasm if there ever was one— were suddenly pro death penalty.

I am against the death penalty. But there is still a great (and indeed, essential) distinction to be made between, say, executing a terrorist who blew up thirty people and torturing and murdering a helpless, innocent child and (in atheism) depriving it of 99.999999% of the only existence he or she would ever have.

They were happy to talk about taking the “innocent life“ of a fetus, but had no problem with the uninnocent life of a criminal.

Precisely because he is “uninnocent.”

I was in a discussion with a very Catholic woman a few weeks ago, who went into some length about the drugs in George Floyd’s system and his criminal history, and how his execution wasn’t really murder, but a consequence of his criminality and drug use. Please. Officer Derek Chauvin had 17 instances of violence against people he was arresting. That didn’t impress her. She wanted to justify Floyd’s death. Right to life, my ass.

That issue will be decided by a jury, which is how our justice system works. I’m all for throwing the book at the guy, myself, but of course, degrees and type of crime may be debated on legal grounds. I don’t know everything about it. This is why we have juries: to weigh the known facts and arrive at a unanimous decision. And the people should accept that and not riot in the streets if they don’t get what they want. I accept the judgment of juries and grand juries and judges, even though there are sometimes miscarriages of justice, as we all know.

I could also discuss here the conservative religious response to the coronavirus pandemic. Right to life Christians are falling over themselves to deny that the mask mandate is a good idea, or that vaccinations are a good idea.

I object to masks because they don’t do what they are purported to do. It’s based on science, not stupidity. I have no problem with anyone wearing a mask, and I do where the law requires it. But science has expressed itself, too. I wrote the post, “Face Masks: Is Scientific Evidence Unanimous?”  In it, I cited far-right, fundamentalist, extremist publications like:

American Journal of Infection Control
Epidemiology and Infection
Influenza and Other Respiratory Viruses
CMAJ (Canadian Medical Association Journal)
Clinical Infectious Diseases
JAMA (Journal of the American Medical Association)
J Evid Based Med
Journal of Virology
BMC Infect Dis
BMC Med
Emerg Infect Dis.
Reviews of Infectious Diseases
Risk Analysis
Nature Medicine
PLoS Pathog
Lancet
BMC Public Health
Food Environ Virol

Vaccinations are a separate issue. I think it is a good thing overall (the polio vaccine being the case of spectacular success), but one can object to vaccinations on various grounds. And no one should be forced to be vaccinated. In any event, my views are not from knee-jerk extremism or even directly from the Bible. I form them based on reason and my own study of science, including a holistic understanding of health issues.

But whaddya know? Here we are yet again talking about Christians, in a thread devoted to a proposed problem of atheism. Happens every time, doesn’t it? If the discussion gets uncomfortable, then immediately obfuscate and switch it over to the reliable old tired saws about Christians and the Bible . . .

I had a conversation last year with a self described, right to life Christian who was for immediately opening up the economy because he had money to make, despite the death toll. He would move mountains to”save” the Fetus borne by a woman he did not know, but anything to protect the lives of others during the pandemic was a bridge too far that he had no desire to cross. He had to earn his living. If other people died because of that, that was their lookout.

The current data shows little correlation between open and closed states and the rate of infection and death. Here are some stats I analyzed, from the end of March:

The CDC reports that Michigan [very strict policy] recorded the most new cases in the past 7 days with 36,100. [10 million population; one new case out of 277 people]

Florida [completely open] was second with 35,357 new cases, over 4,000 more than the previous week. [21.5 million; one new case out of 608 people]
New Jersey [very strict policy] was third with 31,236 new cases, nearly 3,000 more than a week ago. [8.9 million; one in 285 people]
New York [very strict policy] was fourth with 27,068 new cases, over 2,000 more than the previous week. [19.5 million; one in 720]
Texas [completely open] was fifth with 22,672 cases. [29 million; one in 1279 people]

Controlled for population, then, here are the percentage rates (worst to best) for the five states with the most new cases:

1) Michigan [closed]: 1 in 277.
2) New Jersey [closed]: 1 in 285.
3) Florida [open]: 1 in 608.
4) New York [closed]: 1 in 720.
5) Texas [open]: 1 in 1279.

Thus, one is, statistically, 4.6 times more likely to get the virus in closed Michigan than in open Texas, and 2.2 times more likely compared to open Florida.

[My home state of] Michigan had the highest rate of cases with 361 cases per 100,000 residents over the past 7 days.

New Jersey was second with 351 cases per 100,000 residents, followed by Connecticut at 246 per 100,000 residents and New York with 244 per 100,000 residents.

So my state of Michigan is the hot spot in the whole country right now and we have one of the strictest policies. What good has the latter done, when “open” Florida and Texas are doing far better than we are? That is statistics and rational analysis: not mere party politics. All this stuff has done in the long run is put thousands of small businesses out of business (or get thousands of people in nursing homes unnecessarily killed, as in Cuomo’s New York).

And no. I am not exaggerating this. I’ve had this conversation more times than I can count, and read more new stories about pro – life pastors and priests ignoring sound medical science because as far as they were concerned, church was more important than lives. There was a huge story last summer about a wedding in San Francisco, conducted and promoted on the sly by the archdiocese. Seven people, including the bride and the groom, got sick because some woman had to be a princess for a day. I believe there was one death. But I could be wrong about that.

I eagerly await your analysis of the science and CDC statistics that I provided above. You give me the standard liberal talking-points. I provide actual science and facts.

The third assumption is that religion has a thing to do with morality, an exclusive pipeline to morality, a definition of morality, or any particular insight into morality. I understand that that is what the religious press kit says, but there isn’t the slightest bit of evidence for that. In fact, there is a great deal of counter evidence for that, some of which I just cited.

I presuppose that all people have a moral sense. I believe that only religion can ground morality in a way that is sensible, non-arbitrary, and for the best good of all, but that’s a separate issue from the first thing.

Religion has been used to justify every atrocity, every war, every injustice, every meanness, every spitefulness. In fact, small-G god and big-G God are frequently what are used to justify what cannot be justified by any other means.

Any system can have its “dirty laundry” bandied about again and again (with huge distortion of degree and nature), while ignoring the exponentially greater good that it also produced (in the case of Christianity). Many lies are pressed into service for that end, in order to make Christianity and God look as bad and unappealing as possible for possible enquirers and believers. I don’t spend my time lying about and caricaturing atheists and atheism. Rather, I spend much of it defending Christianity and the Bible from the innumerable lies that are spread about them. So, for example:

Refutation of Atheist Paul Carlson’s 51 Bible “Contradictions”

Refuting 59 of Michael Alter’s Resurrection “Contradictions”

Michael Alter himself just wrote to me, questioning one of my 59 refutations. We’ll see how well he can defend his contentions, and how willing he is to do so. The latter thing is always the toughest thing to get atheists to do.

You and your respondents ask if there are immutable moral principles which both the religious and nonreligious can use and agreed upon. I’ve already looked a bit at the question of immutability, but barring immutable moral principles… Of course there are MORAL PRINCIPLES. That’s what enables society to exist, which in itself argues that morality in the most general sense is both a product of natural evolution and social evolution, not a function of which god or gods society happens to be following at the moment. Or not following at all. We are social creatures with personal agency— what you call free will. Morality is what enables us to live together in societies. As at least one other commenter has noted, morality is a shared social agreement.

As I wrote in my paper above this combox:

It can be shown that all societies agree on basic moral principles. C. S. Lewis in fact did this at the end of his book, The Abolition of Man. (what he called the Tao). We would say that is natural law and the human conscience, grounded in God. Commonalities don’t “prove” God’s existence, but this is perfectly consistent with what I wrote above, and what we would fully expect to find if God did exist. All societies, for example, have prohibitions of murder, as inherently wrong. They may differ on the parameters of murder (the definition). But they don’t disagree that there is such a thing as murder: that ought not be done, and for which there are strict penalties.

To answer to the question asked most directly, as to what My moral principles are, is fairly simple. I don’t treat other people in the way that I would not like to be treated myself.

The golden rule, of course. DC Kurtz (diabolically consistent) even attacked that. But you and I can have a rational and productive discussion because we agree on these basic ethical principles. Kurtz has simply lowered himself to the level of the beasts (and, I say, the Nazis).

I try always to understand the difference between what I can change and what I cannot change— and as importantly, whether I SHOULD change it. I tell the truth. I don’t demand dominion— that word is chosen very carefully— over the lives of other people.

All laws do that, so we all do this indirectly, by the people we elect to office.

I keep my hands off of other peoples stuff. I try always to choose kindness. Violence is rarely a solution, because what you put out in to the world is what you get back. I believe that good is better than evil because it’s nicer.

No disagreement here, as far as it goes. I only point out that your problem comes at the level of definition and application to all. I laid out my case in the paper above. Feel free to directly interact with it if you like: to actually respond to what I specifically argued.

You see, I actually believe in free will.

That’s another reason why we can talk. Many atheists I have come across deny this.

Every moment of our lives, we are faced with choices. What we choose determines who we are. Where we put our attention is what we create in our lives. What we put out in the world is what we get back.

Very true. As the Bible says, “what you reap is what you sow.” Or eastern religionists talk about karma.

But the question I actually believe you were asking is this one: where did I get my moral principles, If I didn’t get them from your God or someone else’s God. And that is another way of asking how they could be moral principles or immutable moral principles if the fount of morality didn’t give them to me. Such a statement ignores entirely a great deal of human knowledge: sociology, psychology, social psychology, anthropology, history, literature, socio-biology, evolutionary theory, and a host of other fields.

I got my morals the same way everyone gets their morals: from their parents, families, community, books that are read, churches that are gone to, experiences with other people, lessons that learned, observations that are made, history, culture, art, poetry and on and on and on. I read George Herbert and John Donne when I was a teenager; “no man is an island entire of itself“ still sticks in my mind 50 years later.

Yeah, we are all products of our influences, and we are what we eat. But this doesn’t go deep enough. I don’t believe mere environment and experience can explain the huge commonalities in ethics and morals that almost all human beings share. I think it’s because there really is a God Who embodies Good, and Who put our conscience and moral notions in us. And there is a real thing called evil which results from the deliberate rejection (using this free will you accept) of God and the Good.

I doubt anyone has ever read the Bible and said, “that’s going to be my moral system from now on.” They would have had to have been raised in a vacuum and become Bible believers when they were three years old for that to happen. That is not how anyone reads the Bible or any other religious text. Nobody reads the Bible and says, “I’m going to be that guy.“ They were already that guy, and they read in the Bible to justify that.

I agree that causation is multifaceted and complex.

Above all, as the summation and culmination of these simple principles, I don’t believe in a God, especially a god that tells me I can do whatever I want to do to other people as long as that God gives me his OK, or I believe that he gives me his OK, or an ancient book from thousands of years ago tells me that it’s OK. The history of the world is replete with people who say, “God said it. I believe it. That settles it.” The history of the Bible is also replete with that.

This is the usual jaded, distorted view of the Bible and God that I deal with in particulars, in replies to atheists.

When I was studying for my bar mitzvah nearly 60 years ago, our teacher in religious school was discussing the plagues of Egypt, and explained how “God hardened pharaoh’s heart“ after each and every plague, apparently so that he could send another plague. There seemed to be no other purpose to it but that. Pharaoh was ready to let the Hebrews go, and each time, God hardened his heart. I raised my hand and said to the teacher: “but that’s not fair.“ Even to 12 year old me, that was obvious. The teacher replied, “we are not to question God.“ The light went on. The principles of fairness were not important. All that did was make me question the teacher, then my cantor, whom I really admired, then my entire faith.

Then (as always in deconversions: from traditional Judaism as well as Christianity) your forsaking your faith was based on an elementary misunderstanding of biblical idiom and thinking. This “hardening” issue comes up quite a bit and I have explained it many times. It’s not rocket science. See: God “Hardening Hearts”: How Do We Interpret That?

Your story here precisely illustrates how people lose their faith and reject God: they pick one thing, twist and distort it and never truly understand even what it is, but nevertheless utilize it for an irrational and emotional rejection of a thing, that isn’t even truly the thing that is purportedly rejected. It’s classic. This is what I always find — without exception — in now about 30 such analyses of deconversion stories.

A few years later, I realized that the murder of all the firstborn sons of Egypt was even more unfair. They weren’t responsible for the enslavement of the Hebrews, especially the little children who couldn’t have enslaved anyone even if they wanted to.

That gets into judgment, which is another huge topic too complex to address here in an already long reply. I’ve addressed that many times, too.

I’m not about to take my moral lessons from the likes of that, much less proclaim it a fount of all morality. I have a lot of other stories and/or lessons that I could explain, but that’s where it all started.

You based it on untruths and distortions of what the Bible and Judaism teach.

There are no cosmic rewards, and there are no cosmic punishments. There are simply consequences. And because my entire life has taught me that what I put out into the universe is what I get back from it— there is an immutable moral principle if ever there was one— I want to put out the good stuff as much as possible, and bad stuff as little as possible.

You get nothing in the end but meaninglessness and despair and annihilation. Life ultimately has no purpose in the atheist view consistently applied. I’m delighted that you don’t consistently follow atheist false premises, as DC Kurtz does. You have to borrow from Judaism and Christianity to even get to the moral point that you have attained. You yourself implicitly agree with this in your point about everyone’s influences.

I don’t want bad consequences in my life, so I make my choices carefully. That’s not to say that bad things don’t happen; absolutely, they do. But I am quite clear about the consequences of MY bad actions.

Good.

But here’s the thing: that point of view requires an ACTIVE moral life, a constant examination of who I am, how I act, and who I am in the world. That is how people grow morally. I’m not the same man I was 20 years ago, when I met my husband. I’m not the same man I was 40 years ago; I’ve learned a lot in that time. I’m certainly not the same person I was 60 years ago. I’ve learned a lot in that time, frequently the hard way. The pretense that anyone lives a “Christian life” based entirely on the Bible, or what the church says, is perhaps the laziest of all of the lazy lies some people tell themselves to simply get through their days.

I see. Not sure what you mean by this, so I’ll let it pass for now.

The Christian God I’ve read about for most of my life would, I think, be offended by the laziness of that lie. Matthew 25:31 onwards is all about that.

Another complex discussion . . .

That’s all I can write for now. I will try to write more later as I have time.

Thanks for taking all this time to express your views. I appreciate that: even though we disagree on much. We do have some substantial agreements, too.

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[he wrote the following before I replied above. He had written a comment that was mostly about Christianity (rather than atheism’s “problem of good”), which I felt was off-topic, so I deleted it (the only one I deleted in a very long combox: currently at 77 comments), and wrote: “The topic is the problem of good as a proposed weakness of atheism. If you keep trying to switch the topic, as here, your comment will be deleted.”]

If the topic is the problem of good as a proposed weakness of atheism, then a counter example of the problem of Good as a proposed weakness of theism should be a valid point to make. That was my point, of course. And I have addressed what you claim is the issue in several posts, none of which were responded to.

But actually, my real point was that neither theism nor atheism have any kind of a lock on goodness, or a reason for being good. My point was that goodness has no more to do with god than evil has to do with atheism. I said it quite clearly, in fact. This was the conclusion of the post that you deleted: “Here is the reality of the situation. Moral people act morally. Good people act goodly. Immoral people act immorally. Evil people act evilly. Religion has very little to do with morality, despite its press kit. But here’s a thought for you. If you need religion to tell you that Rape is wrong, murder is wrong, sexual abuse of children is wrong, Then your problem is that you lack empathy, not religion.”

That addresses quite clearly the “problem“ of “good“ in atheism. My point was, and remains, that you were asking the wrong question in favor of your own “partisan” point making. “Atheism=immorality or amorality or morality-on-a-whim. Religion=morality, consistent morality, rock-of-ages solid morality.”

No, it does not.

But, Absolutely you’re right— it’s your blog. And you also also entitled to your own echo chamber. But I will not agree that you are being honest about it by ignoring the point I’m making. Again, I have no interest in claiming that religion is evil. I don’t think that, and I’ve never thought that. I really don’t give a small gosh darn what people believe. We all of us need our metaphors. What I care about is what they do with it. You can go back in my comment history for nearly 20 years. I have never wavered from that.

So, given all that, I think I’ll just make my departure from your blog. You guys can all talk among yourselves, and assure yourselves that you are the holders of morality, and that you have a good reason for being moral, and that we atheists aren’t and don’t.

That doesn’t make it true.

I made a very in-depth reply to your longest reply to me just now. Most of what you have posted here was in dialogue with Jim Dailey, so I was happy to let him have that discussion. He does a fine job on his own. But now you want to depart? That was short-lived. And I thought it was a good discussion, too, and that we had significant areas of agreement, as I noted several times.

I simply deleted one post that went on and on about Christianity, to make the point that this thread is not about that (the “your dad’s uglier than mine” syndrome). Once in the history of the world we will attempt to discuss atheism with no reference (let alone incessant ones) to Christianity. Even so, you couldn’t help yourself bringing up religion again and again in the comment I replied to. I patiently answered your objections.

In any event, I have looked for your comment that I deleted, in order to restore it, but I can’t find it in Disqus or on your own Disqus profile. So, sorry about that. I should have just let it be, despite it straying into Christianity as the topic. If that has made you now want to leave, when we were just starting to have some good dialogue, then it was an unwise move on my part.

It’s pretty rich to accuse us here of being an echo chamber, when every atheist forum known to man is indeed that, and places where Christians and Christianity are constantly insulted and mocked and routinely ganged-up on (often 10- or 15-to-one) as fools and idiots and anti-science, anti-reason, flat-earther troglodytes every minute of the day.

Jim and myself know firsthand of what I speak, believe me. But here you and DC Kurtz have been treated with total courtesy and civility. You don’t see us mocking and insulting you. You haven’t seen anyone say you are automatically going to hell due to homosexuality. We haven’t said atheists aren’t moral, either (I think we’ve both taken the greatest pains to deny that). It’s simply vigorous discussion and honest disagreement about ideas (which are not you).

I sincerely hope you will hang around. I thought it was good discussion and was looking forward to more. It was a most refreshing change from the usual atheist-Christian “discussion” [choke and ha ha]. At least, I hope (if nothing else) you will read my long reply and see if it is a dialogue you think is worth continuing.

Take care.

***

Photo credit: Matryx (4-19-20) [PixabayPixabay License]

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Summary: This enjoyable discussion started out ostensibly about the problem of good in atheism, but inevitably it started wandering into critiques of Christianity and the Bible. Oh well, I tried.

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2021-04-03T13:13:24-04:00

Atheists love to discuss the problem of evil, which they consider a knockout punch to Christianity: or at least to the notion that God is good and all-powerful. Recently an anti-theist atheist polemicist noted that someone “constructed an annotated bibliography of more than 4,200 philosophical and theological writings on the problem of evil published from 1960 to 1990—nearly one publication every 2½ days, and that is only in English.” They milk it for all it’s worth.

And for our part, many Christian apologists and theologians (including myself) agree that the problem of evil is the most difficult issue that Christians have to deal with and explain: though we do believe (over against atheists and other skeptics) that it’s not fatal to Christianity or the belief in a good God at all, and that we have more than adequate answers to it.

We hear a lot less, however, about the corresponding (and I contend, even more difficult) issue that atheists have to explain from their own perspective: “the problem of good.” After seeing yet another treatment of the problem of evil on my favorite atheist blog (A Tippling Philosopher), I decided to produce this paper, drawn from three previous efforts (the first listed is my favorite debate ever, with anyone):

The “Problem of Good”: Great Dialogue with an Atheist (vs. Mike Hardie) (+ Part Two) [6-5-01]

Dialogue w Agnostic/Deist on the “Problem of Good” [7-18-18]

The “Problem of Good”: Dialogue w Atheist Academic [9-11-19]

I will be selecting “highlights” of my own comments (with a word or a capital added here and there), in order to produce a more succinct or compact version of the argument. Three asterisks will separate the excerpts from each other.

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The atheist:

1) Can’t really consistently define “evil” in the first place;

2) Has no hope of eventual eschatological justice;

3) Has no objective basis of condemning evil.

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Atheist justifications for morality (i.e., logically carried through) will always be — i.e., in their logical reduction and/or ultimate result — either completely arbitrary, relativistic to the point of absurdity, or derived from axiomatic assumptions requiring no less faith than Christian ethics require.

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Atheists are usually as moral and upright as a group as any other group of people. But to the extent that they are moral and good, I argue that this is inevitably in conflict with their ultimate ground of ethics, however it is spelled-out, insofar as it excludes God. Without God it will always be relative and arbitrary and usually unable to be enforced except by brute force. Atheists act far better than their ethics (in their ultimate reduction).

The Communists, though, acted fairly consistently with their atheistic principles (as they laid them out — not that all atheists will or must act this way, which is manifestly false). God was kicked out, and morality became that which Marx (or Lenin) decreed.

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In the atheist (purely logical and philosophical) world, Hitler and Stalin and Mao and other evil people go to their graves and that’s it! They got away with their crimes. They could have theoretically gone out of the world (as well as all through their lives) laughing and mocking all their victims, because there literally was no justice where they are personally concerned. Why this wouldn’t give the greatest pause and concern to the atheist moralist and ethicist is beyond me.

In the Christian worldview, though, the scales of justice operate in the afterlife as well as (quite imperfectly) in human courts and in gargantuan conflicts like World War II where the “good guys” (all in all) managed to win. Hitler and Stalin do not “pull one over on God” (or on an abstract notion of justice). They don’t “get away with murder.” They are punished, and eternally at that, barring a last-minute repentance which is theoretically possible, but not likely. All makes sense in the end. . . .

That doesn’t make it a bed of roses for us, by any means, but it is sure a lot easier to endure than under atheist assumptions, where one returns to the dust and ceases to exist, quite often having utterly failed at life, or having been abused their entire life, with nothing significant to ever look forward to. Where is the hope and purpose in that?

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This is not so much an argument, as it is pointing out that the logical conclusion to atheist ethics is utter despair at what goes on in the world, and the ultimate meaninglessness of it all. It is not arguing that:

1) All is meaningless in the end; therefore no morality (in practice) is possible, and therefore all atheists are scoundrels.”

but rather:

2) The ultimate meaninglessness of the universe and the futility of seeing tyrants like Stalin do their evil deeds and never come to justice in this life or the next, ought to bring anyone who believes this to despair, and constitutes a far greater (“existential”) difficulty than the Problem of Evil — which has a number of fairly adequate rejoinders — represents for the Christian.

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Meaning is put into all human beings by God. But more accurately, I am simply acknowledging — with Sartre — that it is a sad and troubling, devastating thing if God does not exist, that a universe with no God is (when all is said and done) a lonely, tragic, and meaningless place. This is presupposed by the very Argument from Evil that is used against us! So you can scarcely deny it! Most lives on this earth are not all that happy or fulfilled.

And you would have us believe that after miserable, ragged lives lived all through history (e.g., the millions who don’t have enough to eat right now, or the Christian victims of genocide and slavery in the Sudan), the persons die and go in the ground, and that they ought to be happy during their tortured lives? Why? What sense does it all make?

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It is clearly far worse to have a Hitler and a Stalin do what they did and go to their end unpunished, than it is to believe in an afterlife where monster-morons like that are punished for what they did, and that those who lived a far better moral life are rewarded at long last (for many, the only significant “happiness” they ever had).

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Atheist ethics will always end up being self-defeating, and/or relativistic to the point of being utterly incapable of practical application. Failing God, the standard then becomes a merely human one, therefore ultimately and inevitably arbitrary and relativistic and unable to be maintained for large groups of people except by brute force and dictatorship (which is precisely what happened, if Stalinism or Maoism are regarded as versions of consistent philosophical atheism to any degree, or even corrupt versions of it).

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The atheist problem is: how to arrive at an objective criteria; how to enforce it across the board; how to make such a morality something other than the end result of a majority vote or the power of governmental coercion.

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Christians have the universal and absolute standard: God. What do humanists have? How are worldwide ethics to be determined and lived out? If there is an atheistic ethical absolutism (as I suspect), then that will have to be explained to me: how it is arrived at; why anyone should accept it, etc.

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1. Objective morality must be non relativistic (not relative to cultures, governments, or individuals).

2. Without a higher being, all behavioral imperatives logically and in practice reduce to (ultimately arbitrary) relativism, in the sense that no single standard will be able to be enforced for, or applied to one and all (which is what “objective morality” — #1 — requires); and that because no substantive or unquestionable criterion is given for the grounds for such a standard, as an alternate to the Christian axiomatic basis of God, in Whose Nature morality resides and is defined.

3. Therefore, there cannot logically be a self-consistent objective morality (one able to be consistently practiced by one and all in the real world) without a higher being; all merely human-based efforts will end in arbitrariness (and often, tyranny), due to the inability to arrive at a necessary, non-relative starting point and systematic moral axiom.

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We defeated the Nazis’ and put an end to it. Great (thank God), but how does that bring justice to the 6 million Jews and many thousands of others who perished in the camps and in battle? In the Christian view there certainly is justice, because there is the Judgment and the sentence of damnation for evil persons. This is how we view the world in terms of ultimate justice and meaning, and seeking your alternative system of making sense of such monstrous evils as Nazism and Stalinism.

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You just admitted (as far as I can tell) that “good” is relative to the individual. How, then, can there be an objective standard of “good” applied to all? By what standard do we decide what is good for everyone to do (what obligates them)?

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Hitler thought the Holocaust was good. Stalin thought the starvation of the Ukrainians was good. Corrupt Crusaders in the Middle Ages thought slaughtering women and children was good. Timothy McVeigh thought blowing up a building and killing 168 people was good. Terrorists think blowing up cars in crowded market places is good. The American government (and most of its people) thought annihilating civilians in two entire Japanese cities by nuclear bombs was good. America thought slavery was good (and later institutional racism and discrimination). Pedophiles think molesting children is good. Etc.

How do we resolve this inherent relativism? The Aztecs thought human sacrifice was good; the Catholic Spaniards thought it was a hideous evil. How do we resolve such conflicts? Was Aztec sacrifice good or evil (or neither)? And if the latter, how do we convince someone of a different culture that what they are doing is evil?

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I am trying to understand the atheist rationale for the most important, fundamental issues that all human beings face: Who am I? Why am I here? What is the purpose of life? Is there life after death? What is right and wrong? What is justice? How does one end injustice? What is love? What is truth? Etc.

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I’m saying, “assume that all this afterlife and God business is false and untrue; now tell me how purpose, hope, and meaning is constructed in such an atheistic worldview.”

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Is the atheist view simply existentialism, where one believes whatever they want, so as to achieve “meaningfulness”? That would be no better than the pie-in-the-sky which atheists so despise, of course. It simply substitutes pie-in-the-head (no pun intended).

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Human beings are very curious mixtures of both great evil and great capacity for good and love. This is another thing that the Christian view explains far better than any other I have seen.

Atheists always have to chalk evil up to environment, because they don’t look at it in metaphysical, ontological, or spiritual terms. So McVeigh had a Bircher for a father; Hitler was done in by his anti-Semitism; Stalin by his lust for power, the killers at Columbine High School by the availability of guns and right-wing fanaticism, etc., and what-not. Christians say that all people are capable of great evil or great good, depending on the courses of action they take, and how they respond to God’s graces. Environment is a factor, but not the sole or overwhelmingly primary factor.

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How about committing genocide or child molestation, or deliberately oppressing people through wealth or political power? What if those things gave a person “meaning,” since you have admitted that these things are relative to the person, and strictly subjective? No one else can tell the person who does these evils (which we all — oddly — seem to agree are “evil”) that they are wrong — it being a relative matter in the first place. This is now very close to the heart of my logical and moral problem with atheist morality (which, in my opinion, always reduces to relativism and hence to these horrendous scenarios).

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The atheist is simply living off the cultural (and internal spiritual) “capital” of Christianity, whether he or she realizes it or not.

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I am talking about the ultimate logical implications of atheism, regardless of how one subjectively reacts to them. The very fact of objectivism and subjectivism (assuming one grants both as realities) allows the possibility that the atheist is not subjectively facing the objective logical implications of atheism (which I maintain are nihilism and despair).

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Just because I think atheism has bad logical implications, doesn’t mean that I think atheists are therefore “bad” people.

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When all is said and done, the Christian believes there is a certain sort of God, and this affects everything else, and the atheist says there is no such God, and that affects everything in their view.

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Atheism doesn’t account for the evil person whose reflection amounts only to a ruthless, Machiavellian calculation as to how he can get ahead, indifferent to how many others suffer in the process. If your “standard” is rationality and a sort of abstract utilitarian outlook, then it breaks down when we get to the quintessential evil, selfish person.

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[2nd dialogue]

I used Hitler and Stalin in order to highlight and make it clear (by using the worst-case scenarios) what atheism entails, in terms of “cosmic justice.” It’s a scenario which is both incomprehensible and outrageous to me, and I don’t believe that the universe is like that: whatever it turns out to be in the end. In any event, Christianity (whether true or not) at least offers final justice and ultimate meaning in a way that atheism never has, and never will.

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It is this inherent quest for meaning and happiness (which I believe is put into us by God), that causes atheists (who still have it within them too!) to deny that the universe is meaningless. I think their view that it is meaningful without God is an “unconscious” carryover from the Christian worldview. In my opinion, they have not fully grappled with the implications of a universe without God. For the Christian, such a universe would be like hell: the ultimate horror.

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[3rd dialogue]

The problem of good is at least as big of a problem for atheism, as the problem of evil is for theism (it’s a classic turn-the-tables argument).

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The problem of good is well  summarized in Dostoevsky’s statement, “If there’s no God and no life beyond the grave, doesn’t that mean that men will be allowed to do whatever they want?” [see more on this quotation from The Brothers Karamazov (1880)]. The way I used the argument (back in 2001) was not to assert that it proves God exists. Rather, I think it helps to establish that theism (considered as a whole) is more coherent and plausible than atheism.

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In the Last Judgment the scales will be weighed and divine / cosmic justice will be applied. Evil people will be judged and sent to hell, and those who are saved by God’s grace will be allowed to enter heaven. Atheism obviously has no such scenario, since it denies the existence of God, the afterlife, human immortality, heaven, and hell, so my statement is absolutely true, as to atheism. It has no such thing, and cannot, by definition. And from where we stand, this is a huge problem. It’s central to the problem of good.

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“Objective” in this context means a binding, non-arbitrary standard of absolute morals within the framework of atheism. I’m not denying that individual atheists have such moral / ethical standards for themselves. Of course they do. What I’m saying is that they are all ultimately arbitrary and relativistic without a God to ground them in, and that large atheist systems act in accordance with this moral relativism and/or amorality (Mao, Lenin, Stalin et al): and we see what they produced.

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Any good and noble impulses within atheist consciences are there because they are innate in human beings: put there by God in the first place. If there were no God, they wouldn’t be there and evil would be far, far greater than it is now (and it is a huge and troubling problem now).

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In the atheist outlook, the next person can always say, “who cares what you think about morality; that’s just you, and your view is no more worthy of belief or assent than the next guy’s . . .”

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The Christian “rock bottom” is God. The atheist rock bottom is like peeling an onion: it’s nothing.

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Many atheists (at least those in power) did indeed conclude that any evil was possible in a godless universe. If there is no ultimate morality and justice, of course this is true. It comes down to raw power and “might makes right” and reducing human beings to the “red in tooth and claw” state of primal nature and the animal kingdom, where the strong rule, in an amoral state of affairs.

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What is the measure? And how and why would all human beings be bound to it, in a godless ethical system?

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On what absolute / objective basis do you define “kindly” and how and why would all human beings be bound to it?

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You certainly believe (or act like you believe) that rape is a thing that is essentially a moral absolute [i.e., absolutely immoral] in all times and places. It’s presupposed in your arguments . . . But Japanese troops during the Rape of Nanking (not particularly religiously observant) did not do so, did they?:

In the mere six weeks during which the Japanese perpetrated the Nanking Massacre starting on Dec. 13, 1937, an estimated 20,000-80,000 Chinese women were brutally raped and sexually assaulted by the invading soldiers. They sometimes went door-to-door, dragging out women and even small children and violently gang-raping them. Then, once they’d finished with their victims, they often murdered them. . . .

The invaders, though, didn’t even stop at simply murder. They made these women suffer in the worst ways possible. Pregnant mothers were cut open and rape victims were sodomized with bamboo sticks and bayonets until they died in agony.

You don’t think that rape is a moral absolute, and that it is wrong at all times? If you don’t, then you just justified the Rape of Nanking, or at least provided the “ethical” basis for someone else (in power) to justify and rationalize it. In atheist “eschatology” there is  no ultimate justice for perpetrators of monstrous crimes such as these. In Christian cosmology there is ultimate justice and hell awaiting those who do such things and who do not repent of them.

I think you would agree with me, on the other hand that the nuclear bombing of Japan was immoral insofar as it killed innocent civilians (the US then became as evil as their enemy). But in an atheist world of morality, there is no compelling reason to explain why it is immoral, and must never be violated.

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The problem of evil presupposes that there are things that are indisputably wrong, and agreed to be so by all, as virtually self-evident. Otherwise, the atheist indictment against God (which fails, even as is) could not even begin to succeed. In other words, the atheist has to tacitly admit that the problem of good is a problem for atheism, in order to proceed against God and theism; and that is incoherent and self-contradictory. He or she winds up arguing as much for God as against, by utilizing such weak arguments.

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I’m saying, “these are the consequences on the ground of atheism, taken consistently to its logical extreme.”

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Societies construct legal systems, which hold that certain behaviors are wrong, and therefore, punishable by law. Law presupposes moral absolutes. Jails and judges and laws all presuppose an absolute system of morals and right and wrong. Otherwise, there could be no laws at all, and “everything would be permitted” (legal and moral anarchy). We would be back to Dostoevsky.

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You have to casually assume moral absolutes to discuss morality at all (i.e., if you condemn any particular behaviors).

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It can be shown that all societies agree on basic moral principles. C. S. Lewis in fact did this at the end of his book, The Abolition of Man. (what he called the Tao). We would say that is natural law and the human conscience, grounded in God. Commonalities don’t “prove” God’s existence, but this is perfectly consistent with what I wrote above, and what we would fully expect to find if God did exist. All societies, for example, have prohibitions of murder, as inherently wrong. They may differ on the parameters of murder (the definition). But they don’t disagree that there is such a thing as murder: that ought not be done, and for which there are strict penalties.

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Related Reading

I have written a lot of material on the problem of evil as well (the first listed being my most in-depth effort):

Problem of Evil: Treatise on the Most Serious Objection (Is God Malevolent, Weak, or Non-Existent Because of the Existence of Evil and Suffering?) [2002]

God and “Natural Evil”: A Thought Experiment [2002]

Dialogue on “Natural Evil” (Diseases, Hurricanes, Drought, etc.) [2-15-04]

Replies to the Problem of Evil as Set Forth by Atheists [10-10-06]

The Problem of Evil: Dialogue with an Atheist (vs. “drunken tune”) [10-11-06]

Dialogue w Atheist John Loftus on the Problem of Evil [10-11-06]

“Logical” Problem of Evil: Alvin Plantinga’s Decisive Refutation [10-12-06]

Reply to Agnostic Ed Babinski’s “Emotional” Argument from Evil [10-23-06]

“Strong” Logical Argument from Evil Against God: RIP? [11-26-06]

Why Did a Perfect God Create an Imperfect World? [8-18-15]

Blaming God for the Holocaust (+ Other Such Bum Raps) [11-1-17]

Atheists, Miracles, & the Problem of Evil: Contradictions [8-15-18]

Alvin Plantinga: Reply to the Evidential Problem of Evil [9-13-19]

Ward’s Whoppers #14: Who Caused Job’s Suffering? [5-20-20]

God, the Natural World and Pain [National Catholic Register, 9-19-20]

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Photo credit: Billie Burke (1884–1970), playing Glinda, the Good Witch of the North, in The Wizard of Oz (1939) [WizardofOz.com]

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Summary: Atheists love to discuss the problem of evil, which they consider a knockout punch to Christianity. But we rarely hear about the equally or even more difficult atheist “problem of good.”

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2021-04-03T10:45:41-04:00

[see book and purchase information]

According to Wikipedia:

Greg L. Bahnsen (September 17, 1948 – December 11, 1995) was an American Calvinist philosopher, apologist, and debater. He was a minister in the Orthodox Presbyterian Church and a full-time Scholar in Residence for the Southern California Center for Christian Studies (SCCCS). He is also considered a contributor to the field of Christian apologetics, as he popularized the presuppositional method of Cornelius Van Til.

I am replying to an article, “Is Sola Scriptura a Protestant Concoction?: A Biblical Defense of Sola Scriptura by Dr. Bahnsen; transcribed by David T. King. I ran across it by perusing Bishop “Dr.” [???] James White’s blog. Dr. Bahnsen’s words will be in blue.

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The issue of Scripture and Scripture Alone (or what Protestants have come to call the principle of sola Scriptura) is a matter that divides professing Christians as to the foundation of their faith and what defines their faith. Back in the days of the Reformation when there were men who felt that the Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ had been not only corrupted by the Roman Catholic Church, but had virtually disappeared under the mask of human traditions and rituals and things that kept people from actually hearing the good news of Jesus Christ, in order to reform the Church, in order to have the grace of God more clearly proclaimed to people, Protestants realized they had to take a stand not only for ‘Sola Gratia’ (i.e., in Latin, ‘By Grace Alone’ for our salvation), but that had to be proclaimed on the basis of sola Scriptura (‘Scripture Alone’) because the Roman Catholic Church used its appeal to human tradition in the Church (or what they considered divine tradition in the Church) as a basis for its most distinctive doctrines.

I can’t deal with every falsehood thrown out in this article (i.e., Catholics supposedly buried the gospel and denied grace alone), so I will stick to sola Scriptura. What is notable, right off the bat, is that Bahnsen never clearly defines even what he is defending (probably because he was “preaching to the choir” and assumed that they knew it). For a very clear definition of sola Scriptura from three Protestants who vigorously defend it (a definition I fully agree with), see: Definition of Sola Scriptura (Get it Right!).

When Martin Luther was called before the ‘Diet of Worms’ and there told that he had to recant his teaching about ‘Justification by Faith Alone’ (you may know the story very well), Luther (which was the better part of valor) asked for a night to think it over before he gave his answer to the Council. And then on the next day in appearing before that tribunal which was demanding that he recant of this teaching which really amounted to the purity of the Gospel, Luther responded with those famous words: “Here I stand, I can do no other!” Now what do we make of that? Is that just the stuff of which dramatic movies can be made? Or is there something about what Luther said that is crucial to what it is to be a Christian, crucial to the purity of the Gospel and the truth of the Scriptures themselves?

The backdrop to that scene (that I have written about) and the origin of sola Scriptura was a bit more complex. Luther had already proclaimed in the Leipzig Disputation of July 1519, a year and a half before the Diet of Worms (January to May 1521):

I assert that a council has sometimes erred and may sometimes err. Nor has a council authority to establish new articles of faith. . . . Councils have contradicted each other, . . . A simple layman armed with Scripture is to be believed above a pope or a council without it. . . . I say that neither the Church nor the pope can establish articles of faith. These must come from Scripture. For the sake of Scripture we should reject pope and councils.

But Luther in (always the vacillating and self-contradictory one), in 1532 virtually accepted the infallibility of apostolic Church tradition, writing with regard to the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist:

Moreover, this article has been unanimously believed and held from the beginning of the Christian Church to the present hour, as may be shown from the books and writings of the dear fathers, both in the Greek and Latin languages, — which testimony of the entire holy Christian Church ought to be sufficient for us, even if we had nothing more. For it is dangerous and dreadful to hear or believe anything against the unanimous testimony, faith, and doctrine of the entire holy Christian Church, as it has been held unanimously in all the world up to this year 1500. Whoever now doubts of this, he does just as much as if he believed in no Christian Church, and condemns not only the entire holy Christian Church as a damnable heresy, but Christ Himself, and all the Apostles and Prophets, who founded this article, when we say, ‘I believe in a holy Christian Church,’ to which Christ bears powerful testimony in Matt. 28.20: ‘Lo, I am with you alway, to the end of the world,’ and Paul, in 1 Tim. 3.15: ‘The Church is the pillar and ground of the truth.’  (Letter to Albrecht (or Albert), Margrave of Brandenburg and Duke of Prussia, dated April 1532 by some and February or early March by others; italics are Protestant historian Philip Schaff’s own; see further background and bibliographical information)

This gets us back to the question of the definition of sola Scriptura (that Bahnsen never clearly references). It refers to Scripture as the only infallible norm or final authority for Christians. Logically, then, if only Scripture is infallible, then the Church and councils and tradition are not infallible. Thus, Luther denied the infallibility of non-scriptural authority in 1519 and 1521, but contradictorily asserted it in 1532. Take your pick of which “Luther” you like best.

The response of Roman Catholics to Luther’s dramatic stand that he would not recant unless he could be shown to be wrong from the Bible…the response of Roman Catholics (for years) has been, “Well, Protestants simply have their ‘paper’ pope (the Bible)!”

That may be. For myself, I have documented how Luther had rejected 50 doctrines of received Catholic tradition by 1520: before the Diet of Worms even began. He was (overall) no “reformer” of what originally was; he was a radical and a revolutionary. As for the Bible being the standard of all things, that wasn’t the case — for Luther or anyone ever in the history of Christianity —  in the case of the canon of the Bible (i.e., which books are included in it). The Bible never lists its own books; therefore the Church — interpreting existing tradition — had to declare which ones were canonical and inspired. This is only one of numerous undoubted internal contradictions of sola Scriptura.

Back when I was a seminary student, I had a student in my class who was very antagonistic to the conservatism and theology of the school where I was studying. And he used to make that point over and over again in debates with other students that “You Protestants simply have your paper pope; we have our ‘living’ pope; you have your ‘paper’ pope!”

Of course in saying that, it seemed to me that he was really demonstrating why it is Protestants have to hold out for sola Scriptura, because when he pits the ‘paper’ pope of the Bible against the ‘living’ pope who sits in Rome, what he is telling us is that finally that person who sits on the papal chair in Rome is more authoritative than the Bible itself! 

That doesn’t follow at all. All it’s saying is that the pope is also infallible (though not inspired). His authority need not be in opposition to Scripture at all, but rather, in complete harmony with it, just as the canon (determined by the Church and tradition) is in harmony with the Bible. This unbiblical and logically unnecessary “either/or” mentality is altogether typical of Protestant thought.

And that’s exactly what Luther was concerned about. That’s what the Protestant Reformers were concerned about. And frankly, that’s what I’m concerned about tonight! Because we have in our day and age something of a mini-movement (it’s not big enough to be considered even a trickle), but a mini-movement of former Protestants going into the Roman Catholic communion. And they are being convinced that it’s an appropriate thing for them to do, and they are being told that the doctrine of sola Scriptura (the formative principle of theology presented in the Reformation, namely that the Bible alone is sufficient) is not itself authoritative, and in fact is not even itself taught in the Bible! “If sola Scriptura is so important,” they tell us, “then why isn’t it taught in the Bible alone? Why do Presbyterians prove their doctrine of sola Scriptura by going to the Westminster Confession of Faith, rather than to the Bible?” And so with rhetoric like this, they convince the minds (I think) of weak and unstable people that really Roman Catholicism is not that big a threat. After all, everybody has their traditions; we have to live with traditions as well as Scripture!

Indeed, it is not found in Scripture (not even indirectly or by deduction), which it must be in order to not be a viciously circular concept. And contrary concepts are found in many places in the Bible. I will demonstrate this and the illegitimacy and empty essence of the sola Scriptura and Dr. Bahnsen’s argumentation as we go along, just as I have in three books on the topic [one / two / three] and innumerable articles.

Well, what I’d like to do in our short time this evening is offer a defense of the Protestant doctrine of sola Scriptura. I’m not embarrassed by that doctrine. I believe it is absolutely necessary to the health of the Church, and I am convinced (as Luther was convinced) that if we give up sola Scriptura, we will inevitably give up sola Gratia as well. Because the giving up of the Protestant authority (the principle of sola Scriptura) simply opens the door for other ways of pleasing God to enter in that are not based upon His own revelation.

The canon of Scripture already is an example of that, which has existed (authoritatively) since the late 4th century. There are a host of Protestant concepts that are also not found in Scripture. I wrote way back in May 1995 about some of these:

 The Bible doesn’t say a lot of things Protestants do now and accept as gospel truth. . . .

(Evangelical) Keith Green wrote a tract in 1981 in which he criticized elements that he thought were added to the gospel by Protestants, such as: the Altar call, sinner’s prayer, “1-2-3 steps to salvation” booklets (Campus Crusade), the “Poor Jesus” syndrome, bumper stickers, “Christian” slogans, and the “follow-up” program. I could add many more, e.g., mandatory tithing, fund-raising letters, “prayer cloths,” church buildings, public relations schemes, numerical church growth (over against individual spiritual growth), the biblical Canon, denominations, tongues for every believer, congregational government, “self-help” Christian psychology, the word “Trinity,” missionary and TV evangelist pleas for financial support, “accepting Jesus as your personal Savior,” sola Scriptura, and evangelistic tracts.

And it’s a very short step from thinking that I can follow a religious tradition that cannot be verified objectively by the Word of God to the idea that I can please God by something that He has not provided. It is a very short step from the denial of sola Scriptura to the denial of sola Gratia when it comes to salvation.

And it’s a very short step from sola Scriptura to accepting sola fide (faith alone), which (like sola Scriptura) is also utterly absent from Holy Scripture; whereas sola gratia (grace alone) is biblical, which is why Catholics fully agree with Protestants about that.

So I will try to keep you up to date on where I am in presenting this case, and I am going to begin by asking: What does the Bible itself tell us about the authority for our doctrinal convictions? When two people who profess to be Christians disagree with each other over some premise or dogma, how does the Bible tell us these disagreements should be adjudicated?

Well, the Bible records one such huge disagreement in the early Church, regarding the necessity of circumcision or not, for Gentile Christians (Acts 15:1-5). As a result, a council was called at Jerusalem (Acts 15:6), which included St. Peter, St. Paul, St. James, and other apostles and early Church leaders (“elders”). The men in this council claimed to be led directly by the Holy Spirit (“it has seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us”: 15:28, RSV [as throughout]) and issued a binding decree so authoritative that St. Paul went around to various cities proclaiming it (“As they went on their way through the cities, they delivered to them for observance the decisions which had been reached by the apostles and elders who were at Jerusalem”: 16:4).

That is infallible conciliar authority: expressly contradictory to sola Scriptura, which denies that anything other than Scripture is finally authoritative or binding upon the entire mass of Christians.

Secondly, St. Paul in his letters refers in a multitude of ways to Church authority and tradition, rather than some “rule of faith” of always consulting the Bible alone. He states, for example:

2 Thessalonians 2:15 So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter.

Paul constantly asserts and presupposes a received tradition, which he calls by that name (in the above passage and 1 Corinthians 11:2 and 2 Thessalonians 3:6) and by synonymous words such as “the faith”, “the truth”, “the commandment”, “the doctrine”, “the teaching”, “the message” and “the gospel.” This body of existing teaching or tradition is “delivered” and “received” (apostolic succession) and anyone who dissents against it is outside the fold (Paul urges separation from them in obstinate cases). All of this is far more consistent with the Catholic rule of faith than Protestant sola Scriptura.

Thirdly, the Ethiopian eunuch was reading Isaiah and Philip didn’t assume that simply reading it was sufficient to “solve any problem.” When he heard him reading, he asked, “Do you understand what you are reading?” (Acts 8:30). Even the eunuch comprehended that the Bible needed authoritative interpretation, since he replied: “How can I, unless some one guides me?” (8:31). It turned out to be a messianic passage about Jesus (Isaiah 53), which the eunuch inquired about (8:34) and Philip explained (8:35), sharing the gospel in the process. That’s not “Bible alone“. It’s Bible with authoritative interpretation: precisely as in Catholicism. And it’s completely consistent with Old Testament practice of authoritative teaching and interpretation from the Levites and others.

Fourthly, St. Peter notes that some difficult passages in St. Paul are twisted:

2 Peter 3:16 . . . There are some things in them hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures.

He is obviously assuming the need for authoritative interpretation, to avoid such eventualities. The prophet Hosea in the 8th century BC lamented such things: “My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge” (Hosea 4:6). Some things never change.

I. And the first step, which I hope is an obvious one but becomes crucial as we move ahead, the first step is for us to recognize that the Bible teaches that our convictions are not to be based upon human wisdom! Human wisdom isn’t always wrong; sometimes people used their intellect and their independent ability to research, and find facts and come to truths which are very valuable. The problem is not that human wisdom is always wrong. The problem is that human wisdom is (1) fallible, and (2) not a sufficient foundation for believing anything about God. Because only God is adequate to witness to Himself!

If this were the case, how could the early Christians meet in Jerusalem and decide that circumcision was no longer required for Gentile Christians? Were they fallible? There was not a single verse in the existing Scripture (Old Testament at that time) that would indicate such a thing. Even Paul had Timothy circumcised (Acts 16:3), at the same time he was preaching against its necessity. How could Philip help the Ethiopian eunuch understand Scripture, being merely human? How could the Levites in the Old Testament do the same thing? Dr. Bahnsen himself is doing this in this very talk. Why accept his word? He’s interpreting the Bible a certain way (wrongly, as it were). Thus he contradicts himself as well as the Bible. Everyone has interpretation and tradition of some sort. The only question is “which one?”

Therefore our doctrinal convictions are not (should not) based upon human wisdom. The Christian faith is rather based upon God’s own self-revelation rather than the conflicting opinions of men or the untrustworthy speculations of men.

You mean, like denominations?

Therefore our doctrinal convictions are not (should not) based upon human wisdom. The Christian faith is rather based upon God’s own self-revelation rather than the conflicting opinions of men or the untrustworthy speculations of men. If you have your Bibles with you tonight, turn to I Corinthians 2:5, and notice the burden of the Apostle Paul as to how to control the beliefs of the Christians there in Corinth. I Corinthians 2:5, in verse 4 he says, “And my speech and my preaching were not in persuasive words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power…” Why?… Why is Paul making that point? Why is this necessary to emphasize? Verse 5: “…that your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.” (ASV)

Yes: accept God’s inspired revelation, but also accept authoritative interpretation of it, which Paul was providing at that time before anyone knew he was actually writing Scripture, too. After all, he said it was “my speech and my preaching”. It was also his in the same way that he wrote elsewhere: 

1 Corinthians 15:10 But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace toward me was not in vain. On the contrary, I worked harder than any of them, though it was not I, but the grace of God which is with me.

1 Corinthians 3:9-10 For we are God’s fellow workers; you are God’s field, God’s building. [10] According to the grace of God which was given to me, like a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building on it. But each man must be careful how he builds on it.

Philippians 2:12-13 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; for God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.

Mark 16:20 And they went forth and preached everywhere, while the Lord worked with them . . .

It’s all by God’s grace; we decide in our free will (enabled by His grace) to participate or cooperate with God and His plan or not. The Calvinist draws an unbiblical dichotomy between our works and the works of God in us.

Think about Paul’s conceptual scheme here as you read this verse. Notice how he puts the power of God over here on one side, and the wisdom of men on the other. And not only is the power of God and the wisdom of men in two different categories, he said, “Your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men.” In I Corinthians 2, verses 10 and 13 (you’ll notice while you’re right there) that Paul draws a sharp contrast between the words which man’s wisdom teaches and those which God reveals unto us through the Spirit. On the one hand, you have words taught by the wisdom of men, and on the other hand you have words revealed through the Spirit. Those are contrasted in Paul’s theology. And he makes the point in verse 4 of chapter 2 that the apostolic message did not originate in words of human wisdom or insight; but rather the apostolic message rests in the power of God and comes through the wisdom of God’s own Spirit!

There is a sense in which that is true, but also a sense in which God and man work together in harmony and synergy, as in my passages above. Dr. Bahnsen deliberately ignores those passages.

The Bible would have us beware of the uninspired words of men. God’s people must not submit to the uninspired words of men. Jeremiah 23:16, the prophet says, “Thus saith Jehovah of hosts, Hearken not unto the words of the prophets that prophesy unto you: they teach you vanity; they speak a vision of their own heart, and not out of the mouth of Jehovah.” (ASV) There again we see in the Old Testament this contrast between a message that comes out of the heart of a man and that which comes from the mouth of Jehovah!

Yes, because Jeremiah was referring to the false prophets. It’s not a matter of “inspired vs. uninspired” but true vs. false messages. Jeremiah preached for sixty years (and with no “success” at all). Not all of his preaching was inspired and/or later recorded in Scripture. He would have preached at a bare minimum as much text as the length of a hundred Bibles. All of his preaching was infallible and true, but not all inspired. Therefore, the existence of a prophet like Jeremiah is proof that authoritative, non-scriptural traditions do in fact exist. The same applies to the Apostle Paul. One long teaching from him on one evening would contain many more words than all his epistles put together and they were just as authoritative as the words that made it into the New Testament. His words didn’t have to wait to get into the Bible to be authoritative (the false Protestant notion of “inscripturation”).

It’s not as though the heart of man can’t ever speak the truth; it’s not as though human wisdom never gets anything right, but God’s people cannot rest secure in anything that does not come from the mouth of Jehovah Himself.

That’s simply not true as a blanket statement. The canon of the Bible immediately contradicts it.

In the New Testament, in Colossians 2 and verse 8, Paul warns God’s people not to allow their faith to be compromised by any philosophy which he says is “after the tradition of men… and not after Christ!” There you have it again, the contrast between man’s authority and Christ’s authority, the tradition of men on the one hand, and the authority of Christ on the other.

This is the contrast between good and bad traditions. It’s not condemning all tradition whatever. See my paper: “Tradition” Isn’t a Dirty Word [late 90s; rev. 8-16-16].

The Father and Jesus Christ revealed the Word to Apostles — and they are taught by the Holy Spirit (as John 14:26 tells us) that Jesus would give the Spirit to lead them into all truth and remind them what He had taught. And the Bible tells us it’s in virtue of this revelatory work of the Apostles — as they reveal the Father and the Son in the power of the Spirit — it’s in virtue of this revelatory work that Christ builds His Church upon the foundation of the Apostles.

It’s not just the apostles. The Holy Spirit led the men at the council of Jerusalem, who were not all apostles; it included also plain “elders” (Acts 15:6; 16:4) who participated in the decision process (precisely as in ecumenical councils): 15:22-23.

And now this teaching of the Apostles was received as a body of truth which was a criteria for doctrine and for life in the Church of Jesus Christ. The teaching of the Apostles was received as a body of truth that was the standard for doctrine and for life. To make my point here, let me just refer to what the Apostles had as the truth. Now this truth comes from God (we’ve already seen that it’s a revelation of the Father and the Son and the power of the Spirit) — this truth from God (I’m saying) was the standard for doctrine and life in the early days of the Church.

I don’t think anyone has any problem with that, at this point. But the question is: how did the Church come to know this Truth? How did the Church, in its earliest days, learn of the apostolic truth from God? How did they come into contact with this body of dogma that the Apostles had every right and authority to communicate to God’s people? Well, we know that the body of truth was ‘passed down’ to the Church and through the Church. And because it was ‘passed down’ from the Apostles, it was often called “that which was delivered” or “the deposit”.

See, the truth gets ‘passed down’ to the Church! And because it’s “passed down” or “handed over” — the Greek word paradosis is used which means “to hand over” — it can be translated “the deposit,” “that which is given by hand,” that which is communicated from one person to another. And that is translated into English often as “the tradition,” that which is entrusted, that which is deposited, that which is delivered. Or as I’ve said, handed over or committed to another, the tradition. The Apostles have the truth from God and they hand it over to the Church. They deliver it to the Church. And that comes to be called the ‘tradition’! The ‘tradition’ is just the truth that the Apostles teach as a revelation from God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

 

This apostolic deposit extended beyond just Scripture. Neither Dr. Bahnsen nor anyone else can prove that it did not. St. Paul presupposes this in how he talks about this received teaching. He scarcely even mentions Scripture when doing so.

 

Now what does the New Testament tell us about this ‘tradition’? Let’s look at a few verses together here for a few moments. Turn in your Bibles please to II Timothy 1:13 and 14. II Timothy 1:13, Paul says, “Hold the pattern of sound words which thou hast heard from me, in faith and love which is in Christ Jesus. That good thing which was committed unto thee guard through the Holy Spirit which dwelleth in us.” (ASV) Here Paul speaks of the ‘deposit’ — that which has been committed unto him — the ‘deposit’ that he has received, he passes on and he says is to be guarded! The Apostolic ‘deposit’ then is the pattern of sound words for the Church. Notice that? “Hold the pattern of sound words which you have heard from me, in faith and love which is in Christ Jesus. That good thing which was committed unto thee” — that ‘deposit’, that ‘pattern of sound words’ that is the system of doctrine (‘pattern of sound words’), that system or network of healthy truth and teaching, the ‘pattern of sound words’, is the Apostolic deposit.

In I Timothy 6:20-21, we learn that this is to be guarded: “O Timothy, guard that which is committed unto thee, turning away from the profane babblings and oppositions of the knowledge which is falsely so called; which some professing have erred concerning the faith.” (ASV) The pattern of sound words, the deposit of the Apostles, is to be guarded. People put their faith in jeopardy when they do not! Timothy is warned by Paul that some people professing to know the truth have erred concerning the faith because they haven’t guarded the Apostolic deposit.

Indeed, the Apostolic deposit, “the pattern of sound words,” passed to the Church by the Apostles was the standard for Christian life — look at II Thessalonians 3:6 — “Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which they received of us.” (ASV) Here the English word ‘tradition’ is used — “that which was delivered from us and you received” — if any brother departs from that, then you’re to withdraw yourselves from him! That is the standard for Christian living: “the pattern of sound words” delivered by the Apostles to the Church and received by the Church.

Look at II Peter 2:21, “For it were better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after knowing it, to turn back from the holy commandment delivered unto them.” To turn away from that which has been delivered by the Apostles is a horrible thing to do! It’d be better that you never knew the truth than you should reject it after the Apostolic deposit has been received.

And moreover this ‘pattern of sound words’ which is to be guarded as the standard for Christian living is to be the standard for all future teaching in the Church — II Timothy 2:2, “And the things which thou hast heard from me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also.” The Apostles have a truth (a body of truth, a ‘pattern of sound words’) received from the Father, Son and Holy Spirit — they pass it on to the Church. And the Church is to guard that Apostolic pattern of sound words — they are to mark off as heretics those who depart from it! They are to use that as the standard for all future teachers in the Church.

This is all true, and he is arguing precisely as Catholics argue about the apostolic deposit or tradition. He’s going to have to appeal to “inscripturation” eventually, in order to differentiate the Protestant view (I am answering as I read, so this is in effect, my prediction of where he is headed). But this is precisely what he can’t consistently do, because the Bible never states it. Therefore, by his own criterion, “inscripturation” is merely an undocumented tradition of men and carries no particular authority at all. It’s an unproven Protestant “tradition of men.”

What is this tradition? Is it the holy tradition of the Eastern Orthodox Church? Is it the tradition of the popes in the Roman Catholic Church? No, it is the Apostolic tradition that truth which they have received from the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit! Can you not see that? It should be obvious in the reading of Scripture unless you go to the Bible trying to make it prove some preconceived idea! That tradition, the deposit, that which is handed over or delivered is not Church tradition, papal tradition — it’s rather the pattern of sound words taught by the Apostles. And they teach that on the basis of revelation from God the Father.

The Bible never dichotomizes this tradition / deposit over against the Church or popes as the human leaders of same. Peter, as the prototype pope and first pope, exhibits all kinds of leadership. Peter alone among the apostles is mentioned by name as having been prayed for by Jesus Christ in order that his “faith may not fail” (Lk 22:32). Peter alone among the apostles (not the collective) is exhorted by Jesus to “strengthen your brethren” (Lk 22:32). His two epistles are written to the Church at large, like papal encyclicals (see 1 Pet 1:1; 2 Pet 1:1), and partially to elders and bishops (1 Pet 5:1-4) rather than to individuals or single congregations, like Paul’s letters.

Paul places the custodianship of the apostolic deposit squarely on the Church:

1 Timothy 3:15 . . . the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth.

I wrote about the clear logical and ecclesiological implications of this in my book, 100 Biblical Arguments Against Sola Scriptura (2012, pp. 104-107, #82):

Pillars and foundations support things and prevent them from collapsing. To be a “bulwark” of the truth, means to be a “safety net” against truth turning into falsity. If the Church could err, it could not be what Scripture says it is. God’s truth would be the house built on a foundation of sand in Jesus’ parable. For this passage of Scripture to be true, the Church could not err — it must be infallible. A similar passage may cast further light on 1 Timothy 3:15:

Ephesians 2:19-21 . . . you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, [20] built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, [21] in whom the whole structure is joined together and grows into a holy temple in the Lord;

1 Timothy 3:15 defines “household of God” as “the church of the living God.” Therefore, we know that Ephesians 2:19-21 is also referring to the Church, even though that word is not present. Here the Church’s own “foundation” is “the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone.” The foundation of the Church itself is Jesus and apostles and prophets.

Prophets spoke “in the name of the Lord” (1 Chron 21:19; 2 Chron 33:18; Jer 26:9), and commonly introduced their utterances with “thus says the Lord” (Is 10:24; Jer 4:3; 26:4; Ezek 13:8; Amos 3:11-12; and many more). They spoke the “word of the Lord” (Is 1:10; 38:4; Jer 1:2; 13:3, 8; 14:1; Ezek 13:1-2; Hos 1:1; Joel 1:1; Jon 1:1; Mic 1:1, et cetera). These communications cannot contain any untruths insofar as they truly originate from God, with the prophet serving as a spokesman or intermediary of God (Jer 2:2; 26:8; Ezek 11:5; Zech 1:6; and many more). Likewise, apostles proclaimed truth unmixed with error (1 Cor 2:7-13; 1 Tim 2:7; 2 Tim 1:11-14; 2 Pet 1:12-21).

Does this foundation have any faults or cracks? Since Jesus is the cornerstone, he can hardly be a faulty foundation. Neither can the apostles or prophets err when teaching the inspired gospel message or proclaiming God’s word. In the way that apostles and prophets are infallible, so is the Church set up by our Lord Jesus Christ. We ourselves (all Christians) are incorporated into the Church (following the metaphor), on top of the foundation.

1 Peter 2:4-9 Come to him, to that living stone, rejected by men but in God’s sight chosen and precious; [5] and like living stones be yourselves built into a spiritual house, to be a holy priesthood, to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. [6] For it stands in scripture: “Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone, a cornerstone chosen and precious, and he who believes in him will not be put to shame.” [7] To you therefore who believe, he is precious, but for those who do not believe, “The very stone which the builders rejected has become the head of the corner,” [8] and “A stone that will make men stumble, a rock that will make them fall”; for they stumble because they disobey the word, as they were destined to do. [9] But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God’s own people, that you may declare the wonderful deeds of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light. (cf. Isa 28:16)

Jesus is without fault or untruth, and he is the cornerstone of the Church. The Church is also more than once even identified with Jesus himself, by being called his “Body” (Acts 9:5 cf. with 22:4 and 26:11; 1 Cor 12:27; Eph 1:22-23; 4:12; 5:23, 30; Col 1:24). That the Church is so intimately connected with Jesus, who is infallible, is itself a strong argument that the Church is also infallible and without error.

Therefore, the Church is built on the foundation of Jesus (perfect in all knowledge), and the prophets and apostles (who spoke infallible truth, often recorded in inspired, infallible Scripture). Moreover, it is the very “Body of Christ.” It stands to reason that the Church herself is infallible, by the same token. In the Bible, nowhere is truth presented as anything less than pure truth, unmixed with error. That was certainly how Paul conceived his own “tradition” that he received and passed down.

Knowing what truth is, how can its own foundation or pillar be something less than total truth (since truth itself contains no falsehoods, untruths, lies, or errors)? It cannot. It is impossible. It is a straightforward matter of logic and plain observation. A stream cannot rise above its source. What is built upon a foundation cannot be greater than the foundation. If it were, the whole structure would collapse.

If an elephant stood on the shoulders of a man as its foundation, that foundation would collapse. The base of a skyscraper has to hold the weight above it. The foundations of a suspension bridge over a river have to be strong enough to support that bridge.

Therefore, we must conclude that if the Church is the foundation of truth, the Church must be infallible, since truth is infallible, and the foundation cannot be lesser than that which is built upon it. And since there is another infallible authority apart from Scripture, sola scriptura must be false.

Now, we have to ask the next question. We know what the truth is (it’s the deposit). We know why it’s called tradition (because it’s ‘passed on’ to the Church and through the Church). Now the question is: how was it passed? In what form was it passed to the Church? And to answer that let’s turn in our Bibles to II Thessalonians 2:15. Paul says, “So then, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye were taught, whether by word, or by epistle of ours.” Paul says, “Stand fast in the traditions,” that is, what the Apostles have delivered, handed over to the Church! Stand fast by that pattern of sound words, the truth, the deposit that they have from God to give to God’s people. Stand fast by it! And how did the Church learn about this deposit? How did the Apostles hand it over or deliver it? Well, Paul tells us right here. They did it not only by word but by epistle, by letter, by writing (if you will). “So then, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye were taught, whether by word, or by epistle of ours.”

And so what I want to say is the truth was passed to the Church orally and in writing. In two ways that same deposit (or pattern of sound words) came to the Church. Is there any hint at all in this verse that what Paul means is part of the tradition came orally and part of the tradition came in writing — so make sure you keep the two of them together so you get everything? Is there any hint of that? It’s just the traditions; it’s just the deposit; it’s just the pattern of sound words that is communicated in two different ways! Paul doesn’t suggest that one or the other supplement the opposite. He simply says guard the traditions — and you received them in writing and you received them orally!

Now why am I stressing this point? Because, you see, Roman Catholics maintain that if you only keep to the Written Apostolic Tradition, you haven’t got the whole Word of God! You’ve got to have the Oral Apostolic Tradition as well. Well, there’s just a huge logical fallacy involved in that thinking! Because Paul doesn’t say, “Make sure you hold on to the oral traditions and to the written traditions,” does he? He says, “Hold fast to the traditions whether you heard them orally or in writing.” Can you see the difference there? Do you have one thing that comes to the Church in two ways? Or do you have two things that come to the Church?

I see no essential difference. I think Dr. Bahnsen is trying to create a difference with no distinction at all. He’s just seeing what he wants to see: “oral” or “by mouth” or “heard” and “written” are there together, with no distinction made. And there is much about authoritative written and oral tradition in the Bible: including going back to Moses on Mt. Sinai:

“Moses’ Seat” & Jesus vs. Sola Scriptura (vs. James White) [12-27-03]

Binding, Authoritative Tradition According to St. Paul [2004]

James White’s Critique of My Book, The Catholic Verses: Part I: The Binding Authority of Tradition [12-30-04]

Refutation of James White: Moses’ Seat, the Bible, and Tradition (Introduction: #1) (+Part II Part III | Part IV | Part V | Part VI) [5-12-05]

Biblical Evidence for Apostolic Oral Tradition [2-20-09]

25 Brief Arguments for Binding Catholic Tradition [2009]

Tradition, Succession, Apostolic Deposit (vs. Calvin #25) [7-1-09]

Tradition, Church, & the Rule of Faith (vs. Calvin #27) [7-6-09]

Bible on Submission to Church & Apostolic Tradition + Biblical Condemnation of the Rebellious & Schismatic Aspects of the Protestant Revolt [8-27-11]

Biblical Evidence for the Oral Torah [10-18-11]

Dialogue on Oral Tradition & Apostolic Succession (vs. John E. Taylor) [5-17-17]

The Bereans and Searching the Scriptures: Sola Scriptura? [National Catholic Register, 5-5-19]

Anglican Newman on Oral & Written Apostolic Tradition [10-12-19]

Vs. James White #14: Word of God / the Lord Usually Oral (+ White’s Own Erroneous Definition of Sola Scriptura in 1990 (at the same time I got it right) [11-18-19]

Jesus the “Nazarene”: Did Matthew Make Up a “Prophecy”? (Reply to Jonathan M. S. Pearce from the Blog, A Tippling Philosopher / Oral Traditions and Possible Lost Old Testament Books Referred to in the Bible) [12-17-20]

Oral Tradition: More Biblical (Pauline) Evidence (. . . and an Examination of the False and Unbiblical Protestant Supposed Refutation of “Inscripturation”) [2-27-21]

If I might schematize the two different positions here, and what I have been arguing is that Paul says the Apostolic traditions are the pattern of sound words that govern the Church. And the Church, in that day, learned of them both orally and in writing, because there’s no suggestion when Paul says that there’s an oral aspect to the teaching and a written aspect, and you’ve got to make sure you keep the two together. And I’m emphasizing this because this is the favorite verse of contemporary Roman Catholic apologists where they try to prove that God’s people today must have oral tradition as well, because it says right here that you’re to hold fast to those traditions whether by word or epistle of ours.

And the answer to that, first of all, is that if you have it in either form you’ve got the ‘pattern of sound words’. But more than that, why is it that the truth could be passed through the Church orally and that would be binding on the Church? It’s because the one who was speaking this word had Apostolic authority! Remember Jesus said, “He who receives you receives Me!” So when the Apostles went to various congregations and taught, that was to be received as the very Word of Jesus Christ Himself. When the Apostles speak the Word of Christ, then that binds the Church.

Now he’s starting to depart from the biblical teaching and descending into mere arbitrary Protestant non-biblical tradition. But “hear him out” so you can fully understand how Protestantism is utterly unbiblical when we get down to brass tacks and see how a Protestant teacher explains his unbiblical allegiance to sola Scriptura. We must fully understand the process in order to effectively refute it: from the Bible!

Now when contemporary Roman Catholic apologists look at II Thessalonians 2:15 and say, “We’re bound to follow the traditions, oral as well as written,” my response to that is not only are oral and written two different ways of saying the same thing; but my response to that is simply, I’m under obligation to listen to the oral teaching of the Apostles; you’re absolutely right, and they’re not around any more! And you know, catch up with what’s happening in the Church, friend — we don’t have Apostles today! Where do you get the idea — even on your misreading of this verse — where do you get the idea that the authority of the Apostles in oral instruction has passed on to other people?

Apostolic succession is taught here:

Acts 1:16-26 “Brethren, the scripture had to be fulfilled, which the Holy Spirit spoke beforehand by the mouth of David, concerning Judas who was guide to those who arrested Jesus. [17] For he was numbered among us, and was allotted his share in this ministry. [18] (Now this man bought a field with the reward of his wickedness; and falling headlong he burst open in the middle and all his bowels gushed out. [19] And it became known to all the inhabitants of Jerusalem, so that the field was called in their language Akel’dama, that is, Field of Blood.) [20] For it is written in the book of Psalms, `Let his habitation become desolate, and let there be no one to live in it’; and `His office let another take.’ [21] So one of the men who have accompanied us during all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, [22] beginning from the baptism of John until the day when he was taken up from us — one of these men must become with us a witness to his resurrection.” [23] And they put forward two, Joseph called Barsab’bas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthi’as. [24] And they prayed and said, “Lord, who knowest the hearts of all men, show which one of these two thou hast chosen [25] to take the place in this ministry and apostleship from which Judas turned aside, to go to his own place.” [26] And they cast lots for them, and the lot fell on Matthi’as; and he was enrolled with the eleven apostles.

Acts 1:20 even uses episkopos (“bishop” / “office” in RSV; “bishoprick” in KJV) to describe Judas, who was succeeded by Matthias. This is where Catholics derive the idea that the bishops are the successors of the apostles. Since Paul received and passed on or delivered oral and written tradition, successors to the apostles would do the same thing.

The Bible actually teaches that the apostles didn’t cease. But Catholics interpret this as teaching that they continue in the person of the bishops (Acts 1:16-26). Paul shows no sense of the cessation of apostles in these passages:

1 Corinthians 12:28-29 And God has appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, then healers, helpers, administrators, speakers in various kinds of tongues. [29] Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles?

Ephesians 4:11-12 And his gifts were that some should be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers, [12] to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ,

Note how “prophets” are also included in both passages, alongside “apostles” and in the same list with categories like teachers, administrators, tongues-speakers, helpers, evangelists, and pastors. If all those offices haven’t ceased, why would we think the office of apostles would? The New Testament continues to refer to existing prophets:

Acts 11:27-30  Now in these days prophets came down from Jerusalem to Antioch. [28] And one of them named Ag’abus stood up and foretold by the Spirit that there would be a great famine over all the world; and this took place in the days of Claudius. [29] And the disciples determined, every one according to his ability, to send relief to the brethren who lived in Judea; [30] and they did so, sending it to the elders by the hand of Barnabas and Saul.

Acts 21:10-11 While we were staying for some days, a prophet named Ag’abus came down from Judea. [11] And coming to us he took Paul’s girdle and bound his own feet and hands, and said, “Thus says the Holy Spirit, `So shall the Jews at Jerusalem bind the man who owns this girdle and deliver him into the hands of the Gentiles.'”

The authority of this prophet Agabus (backed up by “the Spirit”) was so acknowledged, that (in Acts 11) “the disciples” accepted it, as did Paul and Barnabas: through whom relief was sent, following the prophet’s prediction of famine. This was not Holy Scripture. It’s an oral proclamation from a prophet, led by the Holy Spirit, which was accepted and acted upon. And this is after the Church had begun at Pentecost. He then prophesied to St. Paul himself, saying, “Thus says the Holy Spirit” and Paul fully accepts it. This is, again, non-biblical and non-apostolic (and oral, not written) infallibility: utterly contrary to sola Scriptura.

Acts 13:1 Now in the church at Antioch there were prophets and teachers, Barnabas, Simeon who was called Niger, Lucius of Cyre’ne, Man’a-en a member of the court of Herod the tetrarch, and Saul.

Acts 15:32 And Judas and Silas, who were themselves prophets, exhorted the brethren with many words and strengthened them. (cf. Lk 2:36)

Paul matter-of-factly refers to the continuing existence of “prophetic powers” (1 Cor 13:2), and even “revelation” in the following passage (and related ones noted at the end), which has frequent reference to prophets, prophecies, and prophesying:

1 Corinthians 14:26, 29-32, 37, 39 What then, brethren? When you come together, each one has a hymn, a lesson, a revelation, a tongue, or an interpretation. Let all things be done for edification. . . . [29] Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others weigh what is said. [30] If a revelation is made to another sitting by, let the first be silent. [31] For you can all prophesy one by one, so that all may learn and all be encouraged; [32] and the spirits of prophets are subject to prophets. . . . [37] If any one thinks that he is a prophet, or spiritual, he should acknowledge that what I am writing to you is a command of the Lord. . . . [39] So, my brethren, earnestly desire to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues; (cf. 14:1, 3-5, 24; 1 Thess 5:20

And there are several others as well:

Ephesians 3:4-5 When you read this you can perceive my insight into the mystery of Christ, [5] which was not made known to the sons of men in other generations as it has now been revealed to his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

1 Timothy 1:18 This charge I commit to you, Timothy, my son, in accordance with the prophetic utterances which pointed to you, that inspired by them you may wage the good warfare,

1 Timothy 4:14 Do not neglect the gift you have, which was given you by prophetic utterance when the council of elders laid their hands upon you.

Revelation 11:3, 6, 10 And I will grant my two witnesses power to prophesy for one thousand two hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth.” . . . [6] They have power to shut the sky, that no rain may fall during the days of their prophesying, and they have power over the waters to turn them into blood, and to smite the earth with every plague, as often as they desire. . . . [10] . . . these two prophets had been a torment to those who dwell on the earth. (cf. 10:11)

Acts 19:6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Spirit came on them; and they spoke with tongues and prophesied.

Acts 21:9 And he had four unmarried daughters, who prophesied.

1 Corinthians 11:4-5 Any man who prays or prophesies with his head covered dishonors his head, [5] but any woman who prays or prophesies with her head unveiled dishonors her head — it is the same as if her head were shaven.

That’s a lot of profound non-apostolic compelling authority to completely overlook in Holy Scripture, isn’t it? And by an educated Bible scholar at that . . .

Well of course, those of you familiar with the Roman Catholic Church know that they have something of an answer to that. However, I’ve never known a Roman Catholic to think that their answer to that question was based on biblical exegesis. They believe that the tradition of the Apostles (or the authority of the Apostles) can be passed through the office, particularly, of the vicar of Christ on earth, the pope, and the pope has been ordained by previous popes ordained by previous popes, the vicar of Christ, the deputy of Christ on earth. The problem is, that’s not biblically founded! And that’s the closest they would to being able to show that the authority of the Apostles continues in the Church.

My argument above was completely biblical in nature. And I’d guess that Dr. Bahnsen never saw anything like it (and he was likely a cessationist as regards the charismatic gifts: which is another quite unbiblical notion). Papal succession is largely a logical argument, but directly based on biblical arguments and analogies:

Petrine & Roman Primacy & Papal Succession (vs. Calvin #14) [6-13-09]

Papal Succession & the Bible: An Exchange [1-27-12]

The Biblical Argument for Papal Succession [12-12-15]

Papal Succession: A Straightforward Biblical Argument [4-28-17]

Here are further biblical arguments for apostolic succession:

Indefectibility & Apostolic Succession (vs. Calvin #10) [5-18-09]

Biblical Arguments for Apostolic Succession [9-9-09]

Dialogues on Various Biblical Arguments for Apostolic Succession [1-5-17]

Apostolic Succession: More Biblical Arguments [1-6-17]

Apostolic Succession as Seen in the Jerusalem Council [National Catholic Register, 1-15-17]

Apostolic Succession: Reply to Certain Misconceptions [7-1-20]

Answers to Questions About Apostolic Succession [National Catholic Register, 7-25-20]

But you see, the authority of the Apostles continues in the Church not by their oral instruction — that should be obvious; the Apostles are dead! The authority of the Apostles continues in the Church through their teaching, through the deposit that they have passed to the Church. And the only way in which we now receive that deposit is in writing. The Apostles are dead! They don’t orally instruct us! But what they taught continues in their writings, in the Scriptures, which we take as the standard of our faith. . . . 

Now, what governs the Church today? Is it the oral teaching of the Apostles? Well, that couldn’t very easily be true; the Apostles are dead (just to repeat that point). And so it has to be the teaching of the Apostles in some objective form. That means it would be the written word of the Apostles.

Here, as predicted above, is the explicit appearance of Protestant special pleading / unbiblical tradition of “inscripturation”. Briefly stated, it is: “all the teachings of the apostles that God intended us to receive for posterity were included in the Bible.” We will look in vain for any biblical proof for any such thing.

Indeed, in the NT, what the Apostles wrote was to be accounted as the very Word of God. Look at I Corinthians 14:37, “If any man thinks himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him take knowledge of the things which I write unto you, that they are the commandment of the Lord.” 

Yes, the contents of the Bible are inspired revelation, and in that sense the “Word of God” (which is itself, however, a concept larger than Scripture itself. But no one (who takes Christianity seriously) disagrees with that, so it’s not a point of contention.

And indeed, what the Apostles wrote was not only accounted as the very Word of God, their written epistles came to have for the Church the same authority as what Peter called “the other Scriptures.” Look at II Peter 3:16! Peter’s talking about “our beloved brother Paul,” and he says, “as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; wherein are some things hard to be understood, which the ignorant and unstedfast wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.” Peter puts the writings of Paul in the same category as “the other Scriptures” (that would be the OT). Paul and what he writes has the same authority as did the Old Testament for God’s people in that day! 

Yes, of course (again, uncontroversial). However, how can Dr. Bahnsen or anyone know that St. Peter was only referring to letters we have in our current New Testament? He cannot. Paul himself possibly referred to one of them (Col 4:16). He has already conceded that the apostles had profound authority, even when they were preaching before the New Testament was formulated and known as a continuance of existing Scripture. If indeed there were other letters of Paul, referred to by Peter, that never made it into the New Testament, then this is one of many contradictions against the false idea of “inscripturation” and against sola Scriptura as well.

There is no continuing supply of new Apostolic oral instruction! But in the Scriptures, written by the Apostles, we find the same authority, the same inspired Word of God as the Old Testament for us. Beyond the first generation of the Church, after the Apostles passed away, the authority of the Apostles was found in their written word in the objective testimony that they left the Church, not in their subjective personal instruction. Because the office of Apostle and the gifts which accompany the ministry of the Apostles were intended to be temporary, they were confined to the founding of the Church.

Say, hypothetically, that we found a new letter of Paul (to the Laodiceans or some other group or person) in a cave by the Dead Sea. If it were somehow authenticated (as from him), then it would have precisely the same authority as his other letters (whether declared to be Scripture or not), since it would be apostolic. Catholics could fully accept that (on the basis in part, of 2 Peter 3:16), and even declare it canonical in a future ecumenical council or through a pope alone. Protestants would likely be befuddled and wouldn’t know what to do with it. Even if they agreed with Catholics in canonizing it, they would be back in their same-old quandary of being forced to accept Catholic binding authority to even get to the notion of binding, non-optional canonicity in the first place.

The office of Apostle is not a continuing office in the Church!

It is, in terms of the bishops being their successors. St. Paul casually assumed their continuing existence, along with prophets, as shown in many biblical passages above.

To be an Apostle it was required to be a witness of the resurrected Christ as we see in Acts 1:22 — also reflected in Paul’s defense of his Apostolic credentials in I Corinthians 9:1. Moreover, it was required that you be personally commissioned by the Lord Himself which is what Paul claims in Galatians 1:1, that He is an Apostle not by the Word of men but by revelation of Jesus Christ! The Apostles were those who were witnesses of the resurrected Christ and personally commissioned by Him. And thus the Apostolic office was restricted to the first generation of the Church.

In the strictest sense, yes; we agree. But Dr. Bahnsen would have to explain why Paul refers to a continuity. Our theory explains that.

Paul considered Himself “the least” (perhaps translated “the last”) of the Apostles in I Corinthians 15. And Paul’s personal successor Timothy is never given that title in the New Testament. 

This backs up our case. Dr. Bahnsen agrees that Timothy is Paul’s “personal successor.” Exactly! This is the essence of the Catholic argument. The bishops continue the office in a lesser fashion, but it’s still “apostolic” succession. When Paul passes on his work to Timothy, he precisely describes the work of a bishop, which Timothy was to do:

2 Timothy 4:1-5 I charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus who is to judge the living and the dead, and by his appearing and his kingdom: [2] preach the word, be urgent in season and out of season, convince, rebuke, and exhort, be unfailing in patience and in teaching. [3] For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own likings, [4] and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander into myths. [5] As for you, always be steady, endure suffering, do the work of an evangelist, fulfil your ministry.

And so it’s not surprising that this written Scripture became the standard for testing even the prophets . . . 

Technically, this is not strictly true. All one needed was knowledge that what the prophet claimed did not come to pass. If a prophet claimed, for example, that the Holy Spirit told him that the world was to end on a particular day, and it didn’t, then that would be adequate knowledge to know that he was a false prophet. It’s true that the Bible does teach that (Dt 18:22), but a person with the prophet would not need to know it in order to correctly discern a false prophet.

Even our Lord Jesus Christ, when not appealing to His own inherent authority, clinched His arguments with His opponents by saying, “It stands written!” or “Have you not read” in the Bible? He said, “Ye search the scriptures, because ye think that in them ye have eternal life; and these are they which bear witness of me.” John 5:39 (ASV) . . . Jesus pointed them to the Scriptures, not to the oral tradition, not to the authority of the scribes, but to the Scriptures. And then He said, “The Scriptures bear witness of Me!”

Usually this was the case, but not always. My friend David Palm provided a counter-example:

Just before launching into a blistering denunciation of the scribes and Pharisees, Jesus delivers this command to the crowds: “The scribes and Pharisees sit on Moses’ seat; so practice and observe whatever they tell you, but not what they do; for they preach, but do not practice” (Matt. 23:2-3).

Although Jesus strongly indicts his opponents of hypocrisy for not following their own teaching, he nevertheless insists that the scribes and Pharisees hold a position of legitimate authority, which he characterizes as sitting “on Moses’ seat.” One searches in vain for any reference to this seat of Moses in the Old Testament. But it was commonly understood in ancient Israel that there was an authoritative teaching office, passed on by Moses to successors.

As the first verse of the Mishna tractate Abôte indicates, the Jews understood that God’s revelation, received by Moses, had been handed down from him in uninterrupted succession, through Joshua, the elders, the prophets, and the great Sanhedrin (Acts 15:21). The scribes and Pharisees participated in this authoritative line and as such their teaching deserved to be respected.

Jesus here draws on oral Tradition to uphold the legitimacy of this teaching office in Israel. The Catholic Church, in upholding the legitimacy of both Scripture and Tradition, follows the example of Jesus himself. (“Oral Tradition in the New Testament”This Rock, May 1995)

Palm goes on to provide several other references in the New Testament to non-canonical traditions.

Why did Paul commend the Bereans? What were the Bereans doing? In Acts 17:11, you’ll read of this commendation because (he says) “they examined the Scriptures daily whether these things were so,” i.e., the things taught by Paul. Paul commends that; and he’s an Apostle!

Acts 17:10-11 The brethren immediately sent Paul and Silas away by night to Beroea; and when they arrived they went into the Jewish synagogue. Now these Jews were more noble than those in Thessalonica, for they received the word with all eagerness, examining the scriptures daily to see if these things were so.

The example of the Bereans does not disprove Catholic authority or suggest sola Scriptura at all. The word that they received with “all eagerness” was Paul’s oral teaching and preaching, which they confirmed as consistent with Holy Scripture (as Catholics believe all legitimate tradition to be), and an additional revelation. Once they had done that, for them, his teaching was on a par with Scripture and of binding authority.

They weren’t opposing one thing to the other. Both were true, and their harmony with each other confirmed that. They didn’t rule out the possibility that the oral proclamation was true (simply because it was oral); they merely confirmed it from existing written, inspired revelation.

If they had been operating with an either/or mentality, on the other hand, and following Dr. Bahnsen’s advice, they wouldn’t have “received the [oral] word with all eagerness.” They would have been highly skeptical of it and would have checked it against Scripture; and even if it lined up with Scripture, they would have denied that it was infallible unless it eventually made it into Scripture. But exactly what Paul said to them is not recorded in Scripture.

Searching the Scripture to confirm or defend some doctrine is not the same as sola Scriptura. The latter means making the Bible the only infallible authority. The mainstream tradition of the Jews at that time (in all likelihood including the Bereans) was Pharisaism, and it accepted oral tradition and an oral Torah received by Moses on Mt. Sinai. The ones who held to a strict Bible-alone view were the Sadducees, who accepted only the written Torah (the first five books of the Bible). But they denied the resurrection of the righteous in the afterlife.

In I Corinthians 4:6, we have what amounts to a virtual declaration of the Protestant doctrine or principle of Sola Scriptura! I Corinthians 4:6, Paul says, “Now these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and Apollos for your sakes; that in us you might learn not to go beyond the things which are written; that no one of you be puffed up for the one against the other.” Paul says, “Brothers, I have applied (I’ve used a figure of speech) I’ve applied these things (I think he’s referring here “these things” about pride in men, or in their ministries) — I’ve applied these things to myself and to Apollos for your benefit in order that you might learn by us,” the saying, “not to go beyond the things which are written.

Dr. Bahnsen thinks this is “a virtual declaration of the Protestant doctrine or principle of Sola Scriptura!” That’s nonsense. Needless to say, it says nothing about Scripture being the only infallible and binding authority. Paul himself often taught contrary notions, and he did in this same letter; even in the same chapter:

1 Corinthians 4:15-17  For though you have countless guides in Christ, you do not have many fathers. For I became your father in Christ Jesus through the gospel. [16] I urge you, then, be imitators of me. [17] Therefore I sent to you Timothy, my beloved and faithful child in the Lord, to remind you of my ways in Christ, as I teach them everywhere in every church.

St. Paul wasn’t a book (or even a letter). When he urges them to imitate him, that’s not written instruction: it is instruction by personal example. Then he says he will send Timothy to “remind” them of his “ways” and what he teaches. None of what Timothy taught them made it into the Bible. Thus. Paul himself went beyond what is written, so that whatever he meant must have had a far more restricted sense than what Dr. Bahnsen would have us believe. And of course he refers to “tradition” in 1 Corinthians 11:2. And he refers many times to prophets and prophesying and even “revelation” elsewhere in the letter, as I documented above (none of which was written, if it came through oral prophetic proclamations).

Isn’t that amazing?

No. What’s amazing is how Dr. Bahnsen and all Protestants who adhere to sola Scriptura can miss so many things in Scripture that expressly and undeniably contradict their view.

Now, let me end here by asking three, maybe four, pointed questions, or making three or four pointed observations rhetorically about the Roman Catholic Church and its appeal to tradition over and above the words of the Old and New Testament.

Oh cool! I love challenges.

(1) The first question is this: What is it precisely that Rome accepts as a source of doctrinal truth and authority in addition to the Scriptures? What is it that they accept? Because, you see, when they talk to some Roman Catholics, they’ll tell you, “We accept the tradition of the Church because it stems from the Apostles!” As though the Apostles orally taught something, and in every generation that teaching has been passed on orally. I don’t know why it would never be (you know) put down in writing! But, it never was put down in writing; it comes down to us only in oral form. Other Roman Catholics will tell you that they are committed to tradition not only from the original teaching of the Apostles allegedly, but also ecclesiastical tradition (i.e., what the Church itself has generated through papal decree or the councils) whether the Apostles originally said it or not!

We accept teachings that had a very broad consensus among the Church fathers, and which are consistent with existing Scripture, as apostolic tradition. Most of it got written down in due course, but not all of it. After all, Jesus did the same. In referring to “Moses’ Seat” He meant an oral Jewish tradition which wasn’t written down until the Talmud, which came after Him. What’s good enough for Jesus and Paul (with his “obsessions” with prophets and prophesying and revelations and continuing apostles) is good enough for us.

Next question?

And so you need to be clear when you’re talking to a Roman Catholic. What is it they would add to the Scripture?

Nothing. It’s Protestants who took away seven books from Holy Scripture. We also think that the deposit of faith was complete in the first century, and only consistently develops itself (as opposed to “evolves”). It develops the way an acorn eventually becomes an oak tree, with the same DNA the entire time.

What do they mean by tradition? And then after they answer that question, we have to ask, “Well, how do you properly identify tradition?” 

Precisely as St. Vincent of Lerins did, in his famous “dictum” “what is believed everywhere and by all.” By this he didn’t mean literal unanimity but a very wide patristic consensus. Any of these traditions had to be in harmony with Holy Scripture.

After all, not all tradition is tradition to the Roman Catholic. There are some things which were done traditionally in the Church which Roman Catholics would say should not have been done, or which they do not consider authoritative. Not all tradition counts then as authoritative tradition! Well, how do you properly identify authoritative tradition?

By the above criterion and by having an unbroken, uninterrupted history in Christian circles.

And then another question, “What are the proper bounds of authoritative tradition?” Has all oral tradition now been divulged? Has everything the Apostles taught now been given to the Church? That has to be answered by Roman Catholics; or are we still waiting for this to build and build and build? Is tradition limited to what was orally taught by the Apostles? Is every tradition allegedly something that traces back to them (the Apostles)? And then, “By what warrant, theological or epistemological, by what warrant does Rome accept this additional source of doctrine or ethical truth?”

By Scripture and consistent historical teaching by the apostles and fathers and doctors of the Church, or consistency with same; in harmony with the Bible. But most things have been written down by now, so it’s not really a very lively issue anymore.

So let me focus all of this in a challenge. (This is still part of number one here in conclusion.) My challenges to my Roman Catholic friends: give me a convincing example of some doctrinal or ethical principle which make the following five criteria. Give me an example of some doctrinal or ethical principle that is (1) not already in Scripture; (2) not contrary to Scripture; (3) based upon what is properly identified as tradition (that’s what all these introductory questions were about); (4) is necessary in some sense to the Christian life or Church (necessary); and (5) could not have been revealed during the days of the Apostles.

Infant baptism: which Bahnsen himself believes. I think there is a strong case from the Bible, which I have made, but it’s deductive and indirect, so one could argue that in a sense it isn’t there. St. Augustine agreed:

The custom of Mother Church in baptizing infants [is] certainly not to be scorned, nor is it to be regarded in any way as superfluous, nor is it to be believed that its tradition is anything except Apostolic. (The Literal Interpretation of Genesis, 10,23:39, in William A. Jurgens, editor and translator, The Faith of the Early Fathers, 3 volumes, Collegeville, Minnesota: Liturgical Press, 1970, vol. 3: 86)

St. Augustine also thought that the notion of not rebaptizing schismatics or heretics was not in the Bible:

I believe that this practice [of not rebaptizing heretics and schismatics] comes from apostolic tradition, just as so many other practices not found in their writings nor in the councils of their successors, but which, because they are kept by the whole Church everywhere, are believed to have been commanded and handed down by the Apostles themselves. (On Baptism, 2, 7, 12; from William A. Jurgens, editor and translator, The Faith of the Early Fathers, 3 volumes, Collegeville, Minnesota: Liturgical Press, 1970, vol. 3: 66; cf. NPNF I, IV:430)

[T]he custom, which is opposed to Cyprian, may be supposed to have had its origin in apostolic tradition, just as there are many things which are observed by the whole Church, and therefore are fairly held to have been enjoined by the apostles, which yet are not mentioned in their writings. (On Baptism, 5,23:31, in NPNF I, IV:475)

Some other aspects of baptism were also placed by St. Augustine in the same category:

The Christians of Carthage have an excellent name for the sacraments, when they say that baptism is nothing else than “salvation” and the sacrament of the body of Christ nothing else than “life.” Whence, however, was this derived, but from that primitive, as I suppose, and apostolic tradition, by which the Churches of Christ maintain it to be an inherent principle, that without baptism and partaking of the supper of the Lord it is impossible for any man to attain either to the kingdom of God or to salvation and everlasting life? (On Forgiveness of Sins and Baptism, 1:34, in NPNF I, V:28)

Technically, he doesn’t even care about sources, as long as a tradition was passed down in the Church:

[F]rom whatever source it was handed down to the Church – although the authority of the canonical Scriptures cannot be brought forward as speaking expressly in its support. (Letter to Evodius of Uzalis, Epistle 164:6, in NPNF I, I:516)

He acknowledges legitimate (strictly) extrabiblical traditions (i.e., not explicit in the Bible):

As to those other things which we hold on the authority, not of Scripture, but of tradition, and which are observed throughout the whole world, it may be understood that they are held as approved and instituted either by the apostles themselves, or by plenary Councils, whose authority in the Church is most useful, . . . (Letter to Januarius, 54, 1, 1; 54, 2, 3; cf. NPNF I, I:301)

Is that enough examples?

If the Roman Catholic Church intends to be taken seriously when it tells us that tradition supplements Scripture, then it should be able to offer an example of something that is not in the Bible, that’s not contrary to the Bible, it’s part of what’s properly considered tradition, is necessary for the Church but could not be revealed in the days of the Apostles. We have to understand why it couldn’t have been revealed in the days of the Apostles! That’s the first problem that I would give to my Roman Catholic friends. Can you even give me a convincing illustration of something that matches all these criteria?

Just did!

(2) Secondly, I want you to notice the problem with the oral nature of tradition, and it’s found right in the pages of the New Testament itself in John 21… John 21 at the 23rd verse… This follows the words of our Lord Jesus to Peter about being “girded about and taken where he does not wish to go”… Verse 19 says, “Now this he spake, signifying by what manner of death he should glorify God.” Verse 20: “Peter, turning about, sees the disciple whom Jesus loved following (John); who also leaned back on his breast at the supper, and said, Lord, who is he that betrayeth thee? Peter therefore seeing him saith to Jesus, Lord, and what shall this man do? Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? Follow thou me.” Now verse 23: “This saying therefore went forth among the brethren, that that disciple should not die: yet Jesus said not unto him, that he should not die; but, If I will that he (John) tarry till I come, what is that to thee?”

In verse 23, we already have an indication in the New Testament of the unreliability of oral tradition. Right there, it’s called down! That is not what Jesus was trying to communicate. And so secondly, you have to understand that, Roman Catholics who think they’re relying upon what orally traces all the way back to the Apostles, already (in the days of the New Testament) what was orally taught was being corrupted — and testimony is given to it!

This is but one example, but it is a classic example of a tradition of men only: not protected by the Holy Spirit. Catholics are well used to observing internally contradictory traditions. We need only look at Protestantism and its hundreds of denominations that teach hundreds of mutually exclusive doctrines. That’s what false traditions literally look like, because every time two Protestants contradict each other, both cannot be right (and both may even be wrong): therefore error is necessarily present, and that’s not of God at all. The Bible talks about one faith, one truth, one Church, not competing mini-fiefdoms.

One counter-example was already given: Jesus’ acceptance of the oral tradition of Moses’ Seat. Somehow it got passed-down uncorrupted: all the way from Moses to the publication of the Talmud after Christ (over 1200 years at the very least).

I can think of another example of false traditions of men:

Mark 14:55-59 Now the chief priests and the whole council sought testimony against Jesus to put him to death; but they found none. [56] For many bore false witness against him, and their witness did not agree. [57] And some stood up and bore false witness against him, saying, [58] “We heard him say, `I will destroy this temple that is made with hands, and in three days I will build another, not made with hands.'” [59] Yet not even so did their testimony agree.

(3) Thirdly, what is a believer to do when Church traditions contradict each other? There are many traditions in the Church and they are not all harmonious.

You mean, like Protestant denominationialism? I don’t know. What do Protestants do to resolve those vicious and innumerable contradictions, entailing massive error somewhere within Protestantism.

Some traditions in the church support the office of the universal bishop; other traditions denounce the office of a universal bishop (read Gregory the Great and Cyprian for instance).

What Catholics do is back it up with Scripture and determine which 1) had the most universality and was 2) most authoritatively proclaimed by a council or a pope or both. So, for example, there were many differences of opinion on the biblical canon. The Catholic Church declared on the canon in the late 4th century, putting an end to that. After that time, we hear no more about various books supposedly in the Bible, according to some, like the Didache or Shepherd of Hermas.

What are we to do with the tradition that was alive in the early Church that said Christ would shortly return and establish an earthly kingdom? Other traditions contradict it! What do we do about the use of images as a help to worship, or a help to prayer? Some traditions in the Church endorse the use of images; other traditions in the Church condemn the use of images! If tradition is authoritative, what are we to do with conflicting traditions?

Matters of eschatology are notoriously unreliable and variable. The Catholic Church has less dogmas in those areas. So we can say that some folks were simply wrong. As for images, Scripture has a lot to say about that, which I have written at length about (whereas early Protestantism in particular — and some Calvinist stragglers today — departed from Scripture and tradition in its absurd iconoclasm):

Early Protestant Antipathy Towards Art (+ Iconoclasm) [1991]

Veneration of Images, Iconoclasm, and Idolatry (An Exposition) [11-15-02]

Bible on Holy Places & Things [1-8-08]

Bible on Candles, Incense, & Symbolism for Prayer [2-16-09]

Bible on Physical Objects as Aids in Worship [4-7-09]

Calvin, Zwingli, and Bullinger vs. Statues of Christ, Crucifixes, & Crosses [9-19-09]

Crucifixes: Abominable Idols or Devotional Aids? [11-10-09]

Eucharistic Adoration: Idolatry or Biblical? (vs. Calvin #47) [12-2-09]

Biblical Evidence for Worship of God Via an Image [6-24-11]

The Bronze Serpent: Example of Proper Use of Images [Feb. 2012]

“Graven Images”: Unbiblical Iconoclasm (vs. John Calvin) [Oct. 2012]

Biblical Idolatry: Authentic & Counterfeit Conceptions [2015]

Should God the Father be Visually Depicted in Paintings? [2015]

Worshiping God Through Images is Entirely Biblical [National Catholic Register, 12-23-16]

How Protestant Nativity Scenes Proclaim Catholic Doctrine [12-15-13; expanded for publication at National Catholic Register: 12-17-17]

“Armstrong vs. Geisler” #9: Images & Relics [3-2-17]

Statues in Relation to Bowing, Prayer, & Worship in Scripture [12-26-17]

Biblical Evidence for Veneration of Saints and Images [National Catholic Register, 10-23-18]

Eucharistic Adoration: Explicit & Undeniable Biblical Analogies [2-1-19]

Crucifixes & Worship Images: “New” (?) Biblical Arguments [1-18-20]

St. Newman vs. Inconsistent Protestant Iconoclasts [3-21-20]

“Turretinfan” Calls a Statue of Jesus Christ an “Idol” (While His Buddy Bishop James White Praises the Statues of “Reformers” Calvin, Farel, Beza, and Knox) [6-8-10; rev. 6-24-20]

(4) And then finally, fourth, I would just make this observation: that the distinctive and the controversial doctrines or practices of the Roman Catholic Church (the distinctive and controversial doctrines, and practices of the Roman Church) are all founded solely upon alleged tradition! Purgatory, the mass, transubstantiation, indulgences, the treasury of merit, penance, the rosary, prayers to Mary, holy water, the papacy, and on and on.

Hogwash. I provide massive support for all these things from Scripture. I’ve easily made purely biblical arguments for Mary’s bodily Assumption and Immaculate Conception. I won’t burden readers with yet more links. My blog is easily searchable and categorized with drop-down menus.

Those things which are distinctive to the Roman Catholic Church, you will find, that when you get into debates with Roman Catholics, they appeal not to biblical exegesis to support, but they appeal to this alleged Apostolic Oral Tradition that supposed to still be alive in the Church. 

Then Dr. Bahnsen apparently didn’t get to discuss things with a Catholic apologist who takes my approach (which is scarcely different in the main from the patristic methodology), and there are many out there now: though there were a lot less — sadly — when Dr. Bahnsen was alive.

And I think that’s just asking a bit too much of anybody to expect that those heavy and controversial points could be founded not upon an objective Word from God (in the way that we’ve seen at the beginning of tonight’s lecture), but to be founded upon an unverifiable, subjectively adduced tradition that is said to be Apostolic.

I totally agree, which is why I argue first and foremost from Holy Scripture, then if necessary, from written patristic tradition as well: just as I did above a little bit, from St. Augustine: whom Calvinists revere above all other Church fathers.

Now I think that once you think about this and what the Bible has to say about authority in our doctrinal convictions and our practices — when you think about the abuses that arise, and the confusion that arises from trying to follow oral tradition — when you see that even the Apostles were tested by the written Word of God, I think that I would still like to stand with Martin Luther. I’m not willing to recant or to affirm any doctrine unless it can be shown to be taught on the basis of Scripture and Scripture alone! That’s not a Protestant concoction; that, you see, is just honing very closely to the very teaching of God’s Word itself! We should all learn this principle: “Not to go beyond the things which are written!”

If Dr. Bahnsen’s case is so compelling, then surely his followers or those of like mind can make mincemeat of my arguments above. But my virtually unanimous experience in my 30 years of Catholic apologetics is to see Protestants flee for the hills when objections like these to sola Scriptura are brought up. They simply melt down. There are no answers, and I think they see that their man-made, arbitrary, unbiblical, illogical system of sola Scriptura is viciously self-refuting.

***

Summary: I take on the late Dr. Greg Bahnsen, a Calvinist scholar, on the issue of sola Scriptura and related issues of tradition (including oral), apostolic succession, Church authority, councils and popes, etc. Tons of Bible verses!

***

2021-03-26T12:58:17-04:00

Atheist author and polemicist John W. Loftus wrote an article entitled, “Dr. David Madison, Debunker Par Excellence!” (3-25-21). His words will be in blue.

*****

I’m a big fan of former Methodist minister and biblical scholar Dr. David Madison, who no longer believes. He understands how best to debunk Christianity.

Really? I never noticed that. I have refuted his attacks on the Bible and Christianity now 44 times (without a peep in reply) and, frankly, it was always very easy to refute his nonsense: so weak and poor was the argumentation.

Madison expertly presents a cumulative case against Christianity, which is the best way to compel childlike believers to abandon their make-believe fantasies.

And I systematically present a cumulative case against his anti-biblical and anti-Christian fantasies and relentless excursions into myth and illogic. Real thinkers will prefer to read both sides of an argument, rather than just one. Let the best man win! On my blog, I cite tons of the words of my dialogue opponents, so readers can get their views directly, rather than from an opponent biased against them.

Everyone interested in investigating and analyzing the complete undeniable palpable falseness of Christianity should be reading Madison– and everyone should be interested! However, as Madison acknowledges, Christians “assuredly have a long history of not paying attention.” (p. 29) “Even if they’re not oblivious, they are just not interested.” 

Ah, I see. So it’s us Christians who are massively guilty of not reading critical atheist commentary; indeed, running from it. It’s true that many act in this way. Only so many hours in a day . . . But this is absurdly ironic, coming from the guy who has not the slightest interest in any critique of his own work, and from Loftus, who acts in exactly the same way regarding his anti-Christian polemics, too. Loftus expressly challenged me to read his book, Why I Became an Atheist and offer critiques of it. I did so and responded with ten critiques: all utterly ignored by Loftus.

After I had completed 34 of my 44 critiques of David Madison’s polemics, Loftus felt compelled to chime in at his blog, and wrote:

The Rules of Engagement At DC

Some angry Catholic apologist has been tagging our posts with his angry long-winded responses. I know of no other blog, Christian or atheist, that allows for arguments by links, especially to plug one’s failing blog or site. I’ve allowed it for about a month with this guy but no more. He’s not banned. He can still come here to comment. It’s just that we don’t allow responses in the comments longer than the blog post itself, or near that. If any respectful person has a counter-argument or some counter-evidence then bring it. State your case in as few words as possible and then engage our commenters in a discussion. But arguments by links or long comments are disallowed. I talked with David Madison who has been the target of these links and he’s in agreement with this decision. He’s planning to write something about one or more of these links in the near future. [he never did: almost needless to say]

See my extensive reply to this. Recently, I was indeed banned from Debunking Christianity, for the supposed reason of being “obnoxious” (so I saw Loftus comment on another atheist blog). “Obnoxious” is cowardly atheist code for “anyone who dares to 1) confront atheist arguments, and actually 2) refute them. That’s “obnoxious”. That’s being an uppity Christian, and it will not be tolerated by the supremely confident, unvanquishable intellectual titans Loftus or Madison. Such atheists have no interest whatsoever in critique of their charges, because that goes against the illusion of invincibility, you see. They do all they can to ignore such counter-arguments and pretend that they don’t exist. It’s bad for business to not do that.

He notes there are probably no atheist books on a shelf labeled “Our Atheist Critics” in Christian bookstores. 

I have scores and scores of articles dealing with atheist criticism of Christianity on my Atheism web page. There are many books that address so-called “Bible contradictions” from a Christian perspective. These are largely brought up by either atheists or theologically liberal Christians who no longer believe in the inspiration of the Bible. The most famous one is Gleason Archer’s New International Encyclopedia of Bible Difficulties. Recently, I compiled in one place my own many refutations of alleged biblical contradictions. So at least some of us deal with “our atheist critics”: who in turn, ignore these efforts.

Still it’s my hope to introduce Christians and others to Madison, an ordained Methodist minister who became an atheist. They should listen to those of us who have left the Christian fold and found the intellectual freedom to follow the evidence wherever it leads, rather than remaining zombies who just quote-mine from the Bible and the diverse theologies developed from it. What did we learn on the way to heaven that caused us to walk away from any hope of seeing our loved ones again after we die? Surely Christians should want to read one story or two, along with the arguments that convinced us to leave the fold of our upbringing. Surely!

Yes, we should definitely do so, alongside replies to this bilge, such as my own. It will strengthen the faith of any Christian to see how abysmally weak arguments like Madison’s and Loftus’ and those of many other anti-theist atheists are. I write replies to atheist deconversion stories, also, to demonstrate how their reasons for leaving Christianity don’t hold up under logical or factual scrutiny, either. When I did this with Loftus’ deconversion story (a shorter article about it), he blew a gasket and after a very short time could only reply with “you’re an idiot!” and suchlike.

You get the idea. Really intellectual and objective stuff . . . And the reactions to critiques of atheist deconversion stories are always basically the same (I know, having written 30 or so of them): how dare any Christian closely examine atheist reasons for apostasy (i.e., regarding atheists who were formerly Christians). Anger and fury almost immediately surface; and the “fangs” come out (Loftus being the absolute worst case I myself have observed; he had skin so thin even an electron microscope couldn’t detect it). But hey: it’s all fair game. They go after our beliefs and the Bible; we in turn scrutinize their supposedly compelling reasons for unbelief and apostasy.

[after noting Madison’s degrees and languages that he speaks] . . . don’t tell me he’s ignorant. That option isn’t available to you.

Nonsense. He’s certainly ignorant about 1) what the Bible actually teaches, and 2) how to properly interpret the Bible. He is also terrible at logic. I repeatedly demonstrate these things, and there is a good reason why he utterly ignores all that. It exposes him.

It’s David Madison against all the Christian apologetics in the world down through the centuries, and my bet is on him, hands down, no iffs [sic] ands or buts about it. 

Yeah, he’s so superior to all of our combined efforts that he can’t bring himself to tackle even one of my 44 critiques. That’s surely and undoubtedly pure superiority and supreme intellectual confidence. I’ve never seen a clearer example of it!

So it’s no surprise that some atheists are looking down on people who debunk religion when compared to others who are trying to build a better atheist, humanist or secular society. We’re told the latter are doing the harder work, the necessary work and the more important work. Madison disagrees, as I do.

Yeah, me too. I say: do this all you like. It shows again and again (when apologists and others refute them) how exceedingly weak, miserable, inadequate, illogical, and pathetic the atheist anti-biblical arguments are. So this provides a service to the Christian community, insofar as they manage to read the critiques such as my own: that anti-theists do all they can to obscure and make sure that atheists never know of their existence: lest their own lies be exposed for what they are.

I have argued for a test to help believers examine their own faith fairly and honestly, seen in my book The Outsider Test for Faith.

I refuted this argument of his in September 2007 and again in September 2019: to stony silence and crickets each time.

I think his book and writings are doing what needs to be done to disabuse Christians of their faith. We cannot have a piecemeal approach to debunking Christianity, debunking one belief or doctrine at a time. We must assault Christianity as a whole with a cumulative case. Nothing else will do, even if it means we cannot be experts in every area we write about.

And Christian apologists must defeat and demolish these efforts. I try my best to do just that.

He Doesn’t Care That Much If Christian Intellectuals Take Notice. No doubt Madison would like it if they did, but he doesn’t really care since he’s dealing with deluded people, all of them in some measure. So it doesn’t matter what university they graduated from or how many degrees they earned. He doesn’t need their validation as a credential to be proud about. They’re all deluded. Why should we care about their intellectuals (or better, obfucationists [sic] ) so long as we’re reaching people?

Ah, exactly! This at least explains (along with sheer cowardice) why he ignores me. It goes against the plan: as I noted above. As long as Madison can fool and hoodwink people, then it’s in his interest to make sure that his rabid followers never see any replies to his bilge. By contrast, a true thinker welcomes critiques of his or her work; relishes the challenge to either clarify or retract, as they case may be. That’s how actual intellectuals (true to the essence of the category) function. But I am thankful for this transparent (and rare) exposition of how atheist anti-theist polemicists like Madison, Loftus, and many others actually go about their business, minus intellectual integrity.

***
Photo credit: cover of John Loftus’ 2012 book from its Amazon page.
***
Summary: I critique the hypocrisy- & irony-filled analysis of atheist John Loftus regarding the work of his colleague David Madison. Both men ignore critiques & relentlessly display “atheist cowardice.”
***
2021-03-19T00:52:51-04:00

Atheist anti-theist Jonathan M. S. Pearce is the main writer on the blog, A Tippling Philosopher. His “About” page states: “Pearce is a philosopher, author, blogger, public speaker and teacher from Hampshire in the UK. He specialises in philosophy of religion, but likes to turn his hand to science, psychology, politics and anything involved in investigating reality.” His words will be in blue.

This is my fourth piece on Doubting Thomas and third in response to Jonathan. See the previous installments:

Pearce’s Potshots #17: Doubting Thomas & an “Unfair” God [3-17-21]

Debate w Atheists: Doubting Thomas & an “Unfair” God [3-17-21]

Pearce’s Potshots #18: Doubting Thomas & Evidence [3-18-21]

I am presently responding to his post, Doubting the Lessons from Doubting Thomas: Responding to Dave Armstrong Again (3-18-21).

***

I started off this debate the other day with a short piece about the unfairness of the distribution of evidence as exemplified by the Doubting Thomas episode in John. Catholic Dave Armstrong replied, and I duly responded. I then finally found a comment in one of my threads, by Dave, that actually dealt with my points in some way (a novel idea, I know), so have decided to look at that.

Delighted that you think I have actually replied to one of your points. I’m still waiting to experience the same pleasure on this end. :-)

It was a comment in reply to Geoff Benson who also noticed how Armstrong failed to deal with my points in any substantive way… Please read those previous pieces for context.

And of course many of my readers will likewise feel that you have been tiptoeing around all of my arguments thus far. Perhaps this will be the exception (“dear Lord please!”). Hope springs eternal.

Over to Armstrong:

I think God does provide sufficient evidence (of all sorts) for every human being, but human beings have various mechanisms by which they rationalize such things away or reject them. If it’s not efficient enough to bring about belief (I’m not a Calvinist and believe in human free choices and free will) then one can either criticize God or point out that perhaps the person involved has an irrational demand. The fault can conceivably be on either side. God’s not to blame for everything (as many of His critics seem to think).

This is actually contradictory. “Sufficient” does not entail a range. Sufficient means “enough for a particular purpose”. If I need to put oil in my car for the engine to run, then I put in, say, 1 litre. Ceteris paribus, this is sufficient. Of course, if my car has a hole in a pump somewhere, then this is not sufficient. To get to the next town, I need to put in 2 litres to overcome the leak. 2 litres is the sufficient (i.e., required) amount. 1 litre is not sufficient. It should be sufficient if we made inaccurate assumptions about my car by comparing it to another car of the same make and model, but without the leak.

Ceteris paribus.

All other things remaining equal.

But…all other things are not equal. They almost never are.

So, a sufficient amount of oil will change from car to car (as well as the type of oil).

Sufficient evidence (and type of evidence) will change from person to person, no matter what the belief you are talking about.

Yes, exactly (to the last sentence). This is what I am saying: “I think God does provide sufficient evidence (of all sorts) for every human being”: meaning that He considers each person in their uniqueness and communicates to them enough for them to know (taking into account their particular background and outlook) that He exists and that He gives grace for salvation, and indeed is the key to human joy and fulfillment, and happiness.

What Dave is erroneously saying is that 10 units of evidence that the moon landings never happened is sufficient for Harry to believe in the conspiracy theory; therefore, 10 units of evidence is sufficient for Julie.

That’s not my position, as explained, though I can see that how I worded it there might give someone an impression that I meant “one size for all” or suchlike.

But Julie is a scientist and a skeptic whose uncle worked on the NASA team. 10 units simply isn’t sufficient for her.

This is skeptical thinking 101.

We have no disagreement on this particular matter. You have misunderstood me. I take my share of the blame if I wasn’t clear or precise enough in my words. Now I have now clarified, in any event. It’s great to be able to agree on something besides “2+2=4” and “water is wet.”

Dave’s contradiction is obvious:

I think God does provide sufficient evidence (of all sorts) for every human being, but human beings have various mechanisms by which they rationalize such things away or reject them.

should be translated as:

I think God does provide sufficient evidence for every human being, but all humans are different meaning that the evidence isn’t actually sufficient.

Or A ≠ A.

Since I was misunderstood, no contradiction has been shown.

Which he almost begrudgingly accepts, and then says of the entity who knowingly created and designed everything in existence in the full knowledge it would do what it would do because he designed it that way:

The fault can conceivably be on either side. God’s not to blame for everything (as many of His critics seem to think).

I utterly contest that claim. He needs to explain that in light of classical theism and OmniGod. See:

Ah, links, huh? I’ll respond the same way you responded to my links in one of my replies (“I’ll ignore the long tirade of articles Armstrong offers . . .”). Maybe your “tirade” is smaller in number, but following your methodology, I’ll ignore them, just as you did, mine. So, moving on . . . Seriously, though, free will and foreknowledge, etc., is a huge, huge topic in and of itself. At some point it should be discussed, but it’s too “large and lumpy” to visit in the midst of this “unfair God” accusation under present consideration.  Moreover, if you haven’t yet correctly understood my present argument, it would be unfruitful at this juncture for us to venture into predestination, since that is a way deeper and complex topic (among the most difficult in theology).

He continues, unabated:

I think Jesus appeared to Thomas because He knew (knowing all things) that he would respond to such an appearance. But not everyone would or does, as Jesus Himself taught in Luke 16. Therefore, it follows that God would not be required to provide spectacular confirmations to all and sundry. Most of them won’t accept it anyway, and God knows that. A consistent theme in the New Testament is that Jesus performed miracles and taught without parables with and to those He knew would be receptive to both. Hence we have passages like these:

Whoah there. Let’s unpick this theological hot mess[.]

Sure; why not?

So, Thomas was at evidence level 90%, but needed to reach a really really high threshold of 95% to believe. God decided to allow hi[m] this. Dave seems to be on board with this.

But not everyone needs 95%.

Sure.

So God doesn’t allow supernatural evidence for them.

Sure.

But some do. And God doesn’t do that for them. This is the crux of the unfairness argument, and I think Dave secretly gets this, but is struggling to wriggle his way out of it.

People have many many different outlooks and presuppositions; therefore, lesser or greater needs for particular forms of evidence and proofs and indications of any given thing (not all of which are empirical). God meets each of them where they are at (this is what we Christians believe). You’re critiquing our view as inconsistent and incoherent, and I keep saying you are mistaken as to what it is in the first place. You have to get it right before you set out to criticize it.

It’s not about providing supernatural evidence to all and sundry (though Thomas got it, so why shouldn’t everybody?), but sufficient evidence for everyone. Time to continue our analogy.

Exactly. God does that. And many people reject it. The atheist never seems o take into account that something could be objectively evident, but blown off due to emotional or presuppositional hostility, or any number of false notions that work against acceptance.

If I fully designed the transportation network from scratch, and I wanted my vehicles to run smoothly, I would probably design them without needing oil. But if that was somehow necessary, I would make sure they all ran optimally, not having inconsistency across the fleet. There would be sufficient oil need and provision for all vehicles.

As indeed there is, But because of human free will, we have the freedom to pursue erroneous ideas and go down wrong paths of thinking and behaving. And these work against the knowing of God: both His existence and Him, personally. The “God” that atheists reject (and I know something about that, having debated scores and scores of them) is an entity that I don’t know at all. It certainly ain’t the biblical God. It’s a gross distortion of Him, and a ridiculous caricature. That (not the one true God) is what is rejected. And so with this massive amount of ignorance, there is hope that the atheists in bondage to such ignorance and folly can eventually see the light.

Matthew 13:58 (RSV) And he did not do many mighty works there, because of their unbelief.

Mark 8:11-12 The Pharisees came and began to argue with him, seeking from him a sign from heaven, to test him. [12] And he sighed deeply in his spirit, and said, “Why does this generation seek a sign? Truly, I say to you, no sign shall be given to this generation.”

Which is to admit double standards. God/Jesus did do mighty works for Thomas because of his unbelief. A sign was given to “this generation”: hence the Resurrection and the Gospels!

Hogwash. What you don’t get (and what I have explained in these four responses) is that Jesus knew beforehand who would respond to His message or miracles and who would not. He knew Thomas would, so He appeared to Him. He knew that most of the Pharisees and scribes who opposed Him would not accept His message or miracles and so He wouldn’t do them or communicate the gospel to them. With individuals like Simon the Pharisee or Nicodemus, He would (knowing their hearts).

So it’s no unfairness at all. It’s just having more knowledge than we do. If the Pharisees saw Jesus perform a miracle, they simply concluded that he cast out demons by the power of other demons (to which Jesus replied, “a house divided against itself cannot stand”). When He claimed to be God, they accused Him of lying and blasphemy. This is the sort of thing atheists do: having rebelled against God and the Christian belief and behavior system, they come up with inadequate, failed rationalizations to reject all of it.

This doesn’t make much sense, I’m afraid.

Not to you, because you have predetermined (burdened by your many false premises and misconceptions) that it can’t from the outset. Nothing is ever good enough or sufficient enough.

Then Dave tried some tit-for-tat responding to Geoff and went rather off-topic to Tired Tropesville to discuss Einstein’s religious beliefs.

He introduced that topic, by writing “I would also take issue with the claim that Einstein wasn’t an atheist.” I happen to know that indeed he wasn’t, from his own words, and so I replied. If I hadn’t, then you’d be sitting there (or else one or more of your angelic, acid-tongued minions in your comboxes) claiming that Geoff scored this huge “victory” and shut me up.  Instead, you come up with yet another  of your colorful, cynical descriptions which caricature what I actually did (“Tired Tropesville”). It’s just silly. Again, understand a thing first before setting off to deride “it.” That’s universal advice we can all seek to live by.

The key to understanding any of this (and you can apply this to my teacher or transport analogies) is: “What is God’s goal in creation?”

The Bible is quite clear:

2 Peter 3:9 (RSV) The Lord is not slow about his promise as some count slowness, but is forbearing toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.

Matthew 23:37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, killing the prophets and stoning those who are sent to you! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you would not!”

John 5:40 yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life.

As I say, morality is goal-oriented. Purpose is goal-oriented. For God, why he would do anything that seems unfair is a version of the problem of evil, and defences or theodicies of and for the problem of evil are consequentialist in nature: God allows (or designs in) this evil/suffering for a greater good. And that greater good serves a purpose for an even larger overarching purpose or intention.

You work out that, everything else falls into place.

It “seems” unfair to you (great choice of word there!), because you have several false premises that make it falsely appear to be so. Since you refuse to examine those, you will persist in this error.

You work that out, and you might get an answer as to why God is being unfair. But the case is closed for me: God is being prima facie unfair. I really don’t think you can contest that.

I have worked it out by many different arguments: almost all ignored or not understood.

But this is just another version of the divine hiddenness problem.

And they all suffer from the same sorts of fallacies . . . Arguments are only as strong as the premises upon which they are based.

God is far from explicit about anything, and it requires one to be intelligent enough to wade through a parochial ancient holy text with vast effort and intellectual acumen to even remotely start getting there.

This is rich. You complain that God doesn’t sufficiently explain. The King James Bible (Protestant canon) contains: 783,137 words. God explains many things indeed. If I start to get into depth about Hebrew culture, and linguistic aspects (utilizing scholarly books and commentaries) then I get back the complaint that’s it’s all so complicated, and why couldn’t God make things simple?

Atheists always have an instant (and stupid) “gotcha!” mantra to criticize and trash anything and everything about the Bible. You can rationalize your stupefied ignorance all you like, but manure still smells, no matter how much perfume is thrown on it. We explain biblical teachings till we’re blue in the face, but all we get back is endless ignorant contentiousness and stubborn refusal to ever admit that the Christian may actually have a point here and there. That ain’t open-minded seeking of truth. It’s special pleading.

Whilst not doing this for all the other holy texts. And even then, the best minds in the world can’t even agree on how or whether the atonement even works – why Jesus died or even existed!

Believe me, the “best minds” aren’t agonized over whether He existed. Only fringe atheists believe that He didn’t.

It’s all such nonsense.

My exact opinion of atheism!

Atheism is way more coherent. 

Yes, so coherent that scarcely an atheist can be found who is ever willing to refute resolutions of so-called “biblical contradictions” made by apologists and theologians. That doesn’t suggest a robust confidence in one’s own “coherence.”

Problem is, with being a full-time Catholic apologist, Dave has way too much invested in the belief – too much motivated reasoning – to remotely see the light.

Yeah, I could never conceivably change my mind in any serious way: having gone from Methodist to pagan, then to evangelicalism, then to Catholicism, and from pro-choice to pro-life, ultra-liberal to conservative, and many other things: because I am so closed-minded. I was a Protestant missionary, so one could argue like you and say that I could never possibly become a Catholic, having invested that much in my Protestant views. I did. I seek truth always. This is why I am willing to dialogue with anyone: because I’ll follow truth wherever it leads me, and dialogue is an excellent way to find it and to learn many things short of a major “conversion.” My only requirement is that they are civil and offer some serious substance.

And of course you have your atheist books and exposure as an atheist apologist and blogmaster. You are just as invested as I am. I wouldn’t be so quick to go down that polemical road. Just stick to the arguments.

One hopes that articles like this open a chink in the curtains to let ray of light in.

Problem is, Dave’s still asleep upstairs.

And may the Holy Spirit open your eyes (and those of anyone willing to follow truth wherever it leads).

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Photo credit: Christ Crowned with Thorns (c. 1633-1639), by Matthias Stom (fl. 1615-1649) [public domain / Wikimedia Commons]

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Summary: 3rd reply to atheist Jonathan MS Pearce, re Doubting Thomas & the silly notion that this incident proves God is “unfair” to the great mass of mankind, & hasn’t sufficiently revealed Himself.

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