2023-02-28T15:25:39-04:00

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The late Steve Hays (please pray for his soul) was a Protestant Reformed, anti-Catholic apologist, very active online, who ran the site, Triablogue. I am critiquing his article about the papacy and Catholic Church government in general, entitled “Back to Babylon-1” (5-2-04). His words will be in blue.

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I anticipate some objecting by thinking, “why go after the writing of a dead man who can’t respond?” My reply is twofold:

1) his material is still out there, and from where Catholics sit, it is still harming those who read it and accept the relentless misrepresentations and trashings of Catholicism found therein.

2) Steve Hays never truly responded to me anyway. He would merely “toy” with my arguments, as if the whole undertaking were a joke, always in an utterly condescending, sophistical manner and in-between ten million personal insults (including his repeated insistence that I was not a real, true-blue Catholic). So there is little difference: there is no dialogue possible now, but it never took pace when he was alive, either. Accordingly, eventually he blocked me at Triablogue and I continue to be utterly ignored when I critique the top guy there now: Jason Engwer (who used to engage in many lengthy debates with me in the early 2000s). The dubious ideas and falsehoods can and should still be responded to by apologists like myself, as long as they remain online for anyone to read. In other words, it’s public material and fair game.

That out of the way, I proceed. See my past responses to Hays, related to the rule of faith:

2 Thessalonians 2:15 & Tradition [5-12-20]

1 Timothy 3:15 = Church Infallibility [5-14-20]

Does Sola Scriptura Create Chaos? [5-15-20]

Debate: Matthew 16:18-19 & the Papacy (vs. Steve Hays) [10-30-21]

Sola Scriptura: Self-Refuting? (vs. Steve Hays) [12-14-21]

Traditionally, Roman Catholicism has held that sola Scriptura is an inadequate rule of faith. And a number of one-time Evangelicals have converted to Rome for the same reason. This contention has two parts: (i) that sola Scriptura is inadequate and (ii) a Magisterium is the logical alternative to (i).

Hays misses the main underlying reason why we reject sola Scriptura: it’s not a biblical doctrine, and was never held by the Church fathers, as I have proven again and again.

Even if (i) were a sound argument, it wouldn’t automatically follow that (ii) is the logical alternative. That demands a separate argument.

That’s technically or logically correct, and we’ll get to that. But there are only so many choices in the real world. If the Protestant system is fatally defective, due to a false rule of faith, then that leaves Catholicism and Orthodoxy as the only live alternatives (assuming there is some remnant of Christianity left in the world).

I have already examined 10 objections to sola scriptura and found them wanting;

And I’ll guarantee that he never proved that sola Scriptura was actually taught in Holy Scripture. I submit that no Protestant has ever shown that. They simply assume it. Once in a while they actually openly admit this. For example, Jason Engwer wrote:

I don’t think the Bible directly, explicitly teaches sola scriptura. Rather, I think sola scriptura is an implication of Biblical teaching. . . . I don’t think 2 Timothy 3:15-17 is saying that Timothy or anybody else at that time should have abided by sola scriptura. Rather, when we combine 2 Timothy 3 with what other sources tell us about scripture and what we know about other factors involved (e.g., ecclesiology), we arrive at the conclusion of sola scriptura.” (“How To Argue For Sola Scriptura,” 1-10-18)

Lutheran pastor Jordan Cooper expressed the same idea in his video, “A Defense of Sola Scriptura (3-12-19):

I think the question that we have is: do we have to find a particular Scripture that says Scripture is the only authority? And I just don’t think we have to. We don’t. There’s nothing in — you can’t find — in any of Paul’s letters, for example, . . . “by the way, Scripture is the only authority and traditions are not an authority and there is no magisterium that is given some kind of infallible authority to pass on infallible teachings.” It seems like a lot of Roman Catholic apologists think that for Protestants to defend their position, that they have to find a text that says that.” [1:39-2:14]

Thanks for your refreshing honesty, guys. You happily confirm what I’ve been arguing for now 32 years. And if it’s not stated in the Bible, it’s self-refuting or self-defeating, period, end of story. Game, set, match.

now I’ll examine the case for the Magisterium—or divine teaching office of the church.

Bring it on!

In principle, sacred tradition (inclusive of Scripture) comprises the Catholic rule of faith. In practice, though, what qualifies as authoritative tradition and authoritative exegesis is determined by the Magisterium, headed by the Pope.

Authoritative interpretation is always logically required in any Christian system. Ours is the “three-legged stool” which is taught in the Bible: Bible-Tradition-Church. Documents can’t interpret themselves. Hence, we have hundreds of thousands of pages of legal analysis of the US Constitution. Protestants play the game that each one is ultimately an individual and “just goes by the Bible,” etc.

In fact, authoritative interpretation or “Protestant tradition” will always be found without much trouble, whether it’s John Calvin (Hays’ master) and his Institutes  or various creeds and confessions. They hasten to add that the private judgment of each Protestant reigns supreme, but if that were truly the case, why have these other documents at all? We can back up our entire system in a way that Protestantism cannot, and in the case of sola Scriptura, we see at least a few of them finally honestly admitting this after 500 years.

Therefore, the case for the Catholic rule of faith (sacred tradition) is contingent on the case for the Magisterium, which is—in turn—contingent on the case for the papacy in particular. So this chapter will emphasize the papacy.

It can all be defended.

I. Supreme teacher in abstentia

According to Catholicism, the Pope is the supreme teacher of the church. But if that were the case, it is passing strange that of the 260 plus men—give or take an antipope—who have occupied the office, not one has been a theologian of the first rank. The intellectual firepower has come further down the chain-of-command, viz., Anselm or Aquinas, Augustine or Bonaventura, Geach or Lonergan, Maritain or Newman, Rahner or Scheeben, Scotus, Suarez or von Balthasar. It seems incongruous, to say the least, that the real shapers of Catholic thought are not the Popes, but lowly priests and laymen, with an occasional bishop thrown in. When papal advisors are more distinguished teachers than the Pope is, it makes me wonder what the job qualifications are for the papacy. It certainly doesn’t seem to be based on the principle of merit pay.

I deny his negative claim. Certainly, even in our own time, Pope St. John Paul the Great and especially Pope Benedict XVI were theologians of the first rank. There were many more, such as Pope Leo XIII, and much further back, Pope St. Leo the Great and Pope St. Gregory the Great: both considered Church fathers (and they are Doctors of the Church as well) and hence included in most collections of those men (such as Schaff’s 38-volume edition).

But that said, being a “great theologian” is not a job requirement of the papacy in the first place. The papacy is the leader and head of the Church, and the final say (“the buck stops here,” so to speak). We believe that he is protected by God when he makes infallible pronouncements, in a way that no theologian is. But it’s often the case, generally speaking, that the real thinking power and intellectual activity occurs further down the “chain of authority” in any institution. A president of a university or large corporation is only very rarely the top mind or cutting-edge intellect. In that sense, the Catholic Church is no different, excepting the aspect of direct divine protection from error in extraordinary circumstances.

But that’s not the worst of it. Whenever a case had to be made in defense of papal prerogatives during the Reformation and Counter-Reformation, who made it? Wouldn’t the Pope be the natural candidate to present the case for his own preeminence? But, no. Once again, none the big guns were Popes, but men who spoke on behalf of the papacy, viz., Fisher, Eck, Cajetan, Bellarmine and Stapleton. Now if the Pope is supposed to be the supreme teacher of the Church, then why can’t he speak for himself? Can’t he even make a case for himself? If he isn’t up to the job of laying out his own credentials for the job, then what does that say about his credentials for the job?

Again, aside from what I stated above, this is usually the case in any Christian communion. So for example, the great figures or minds in Anglicanism, such as John Wesley and John Henry Newman before 1845, were priests, and not Archbishops of Canterbury. Few would say that, for example, the President of one of the Lutheran synods or of the Southern Baptist Convention would or should be the most profound theologian of those communions. Billy Graham was never the head of any denomination. Probably a lot of this has to do with the fact that leaders and bosses are often bogged down with administrative or “business” duties, and thinkers and activists normally hate those things, or are not qualified for them. They have more “pressing” and “exciting” matters and ideas to attend to.

Even John Calvin’s Institutes (though in practice almost regarded as infallible) is not the authoritative document for Reformed Christians. That would be found in their various confessions. Sometimes such men may happen to also be governmental leaders, as in the case of popes, but it’s not their primary purpose. Why make this an issue, then? It’s misguided and wrongheaded (albeit clever, as much of Hays’ rhetoric was).

What would be our impression if a search committee were scheduled to interview a job applicant for a teaching position, yet the applicant didn’t show up in person, but sent a spokesman in his place? The Pope flaunts his divine résumé, but then hides behind a phalanx of handlers and spin-meisters.

This is simply sophistry, based on the false premise exposed above.

On the one hand, Luther and Calvin were quite able to make their own case, even though their critics denied the right of private judgment. On the other hand, their critics had to do all the talking for the papacy.

Yes, they made their case, and they were not denominational leaders in the way that the pope functions (which is precisely my point). They were the intellectual and theological leaders and figureheads of the Protestant Revolt or Revolution. I wish I had a dime for every time a Lutheran (quite needlessly) pointed out to me that Luther’s writings have no binding authority for the individual Lutheran. Rather, that role is played by the Book of Concord (which includes Luther’s and his successor Melanchthon’s writings, but only a small portion of them).

Apples and oranges. Same with the papacy. This ain’t rocket science. Hays could certainly milk a demonstrably false presence for all it was worth (with his followers blissfully unaware that he was doing it). But the conclusions are no more compelling than the miserable foundation of sand that they are drawn from.

II. Bashful Magisterium.

For a denomination that regards the right of private judgment as so spiritually perilous, the Roman Church has shown itself to be remarkably shy about formally and infallibly committing itself on a wide range of fundamental questions in faith and morals.

One can only chuckle that we get slammed for having so many infallible dogmas and doctrines, but also simultaneously for not infallibly expounding on everything, (as if this is what our system is or should be), including the best recipe for apple pie. That’s anti-Catholicism: Catholicism is and must be wrong, no matter what it does or states.

Why has an ecumenical council never issued an infallible catechism?

Because that’s a contradiction in terms. Infallible doctrines are relatively rare occurrences, and so that characteristic could never apply to an entire catechism. This is elementary, but as usual, Hays didn’t get it. And in his stupefied ignorance of Catholicism as it actually is and seeks to be, he inevitably descended to mockery and caricature.

Why has the papacy never produced an ex cathedra commentary?

Again, this fundamentally misunderstands the relationship of Bible commentary and exegesis to Catholic authority. The Church does not force Catholics to believe thus-and-so about every passage in the Bible. In fact, I would say it does so far less than the system of Calvinism does. In fact, Catholic exegetes are quite free, and the Church has only authoritatively proclaimed an binding, authoritative interpretation for only seven to nine Bible verses.

But what we instead witness is an organization that brandishes maximal authority-claims while venturing minimal truth-claims. It bears a sneaky resemblance to a psychic who dons an air of superior foresight while remaining strangely vague about names, dates, and places.

Classic and textbook, quintessential Hays mockery-caricature. This sort of thing is why I mostly refused to interact with his criticisms. It was unworthy of serious response. Yet people are still being led astray by it (and the apologist is duty-bound to try to offer a better way). This is the constant “trial of patience” of the Catholic apologist. How much can we take of such material without being slowly driven insane? Yet by God’s grace only we plunge ahead . . .

Shouldn’t one of the singular advantages of a divine teaching office be to anticipate and head-up a major controversy before it erupts, rather than engage in damage control? How was the Reformation even possible with a living Magisterium on the scene?

Again, a scenario which a Christian communion primarily responds to heresies is nothing unusual or out of the ordinary. It was what the Church fathers did all the time. Entire ecumenical councils were based on that. Their task wasn’t to predict coming heresies, but to dissect existing and increasingly influential ones. Everybody knows this (and Steve did, too, but he simply couldn’t resist sophistry). Cardinal Newman said something like, “no doctrine is defined [i.e., fully developed] until it is violated.”

A so-called “Reformation” was possible because men are rebellious against authority by nature, and because (yes) the Catholic Church needed reform as she always does at all times. The myth, however, is that Protestantism was so extraordinarily superior; as if it had no serious shortcomings in practice (before we even get to doctrine) that it excoriated Catholicism for having. It’s the double standard and myth-making and “Protestant hagiography” that I never ever bow to. I know too much, and can never go back to my former “brainwashed evangelical” ignorance about the history and nature of Catholicism.

III. Without Intertestamental precedent:

A traditional pillar of the papal apologetic has been the contention that unless a living Magisterium, headed by the Pope, existed throughout the life of the Church, the people of God would lapse into heresy and apostasy.

But as a matter of fact, this surmise has already been put to the test. During the Intertestamental period—an interval of about 400 years between the composition of the Old and New Testaments—there was no charismatic office in place to offer the people infallible guidance in faith and morals or unerring interpretations of the law and the prophets. Yet compared with the times leading up to the Assyrian deportation and Babylonian exile, when the people did enjoy special guidance, and went awhoring all the same, this is one of the more zealous chapters in the nation’s history.

During the Intertestamental period, the people’s only recourse was to sola scriptura—which then amounted to the OT canon. In the providence of God, there was nothing equivalent to a Magisterium during the Intertestamental period.

To directly refute Hays’ contentions here, then, we must analyze whether this period was as glorious and “orthodox” as Hays seems to assume. I would point to the emergence of the Sadducees in the 2nd c. BC. They were the “theological liberals” of their time and precisely prove my point. I made an argument about them with regard to the rule of faith in ancient Israel in a 1999 article (abridged for my present purposes): 

The Sadducees were much more “heretical.” They rejected the future resurrection and the soul, the afterlife, rewards and retribution, demons and angels, and predestinarianism. Christian Pharisees are referred to in Acts 15:5 and Philippians 3:5, but never Christian Sadducees. The Sadducees’ following was found mainly in the upper classes, and was almost non-existent among the common people.

The Sadducees also rejected all “oral Torah,” — the traditional interpretation of the written that was of central importance in rabbinic Judaism. So we can summarize as follows:

A) The Sadducees were obviously the elitist “liberals” and “heterodox” amongst the Jews of their time.

B) But the Sadducees were also the sola Scripturists of their time.

C) Christianity adopted wholesale the very “postbiblical” doctrines which the Sadducees rejected and which the Pharisees accepted: resurrection, belief in angels and spirits, the soul, the afterlife, eternal reward or damnation, and the belief in angels and demons.

D) But these doctrines were notable for their marked development after the biblical Old Testament canon was complete, especially in Jewish apocalyptic literature, part of Jewish codified oral tradition.

The very existence of the Sadducees is a testament (no pun intended) to what happens if a principle of sola Scriptura is followed (as in their own case), and tradition (including oral tradition) is rejected: heterodoxy. Therefore, I assert what Hays denied: without a strong theological authority in place, the Jews would and indeed did “lapse into heresy and apostasy”: in the case of the Sadducees. The Essenes, another prominent Jewish sect that began in the 2nd c. BC, also denied the resurrection of the body. The Pharisees (like Christians) affirmed it, and oral law received on Mt. Sinai and oral tradition. So now we see that two of the three predominant Jewish groups of the period “lapse[d] into heresy”: despite Hays’ claims to the contrary. Prior to these unfortunate developments, the Jews had accepted a doctrine of the afterlife, and at length, even a bodily resurrection. See:

Jewish and Old Testament Views of Hell and Eternal Punishment [4-14-04]

Salvation and Eternal Afterlife in the Old Testament [8-31-19]

It developed slowly, but was in place when Jesus came onto the scene. The Sadducees and the Essenes (like the various heretical sects of Church history) did their best to undermine these beliefs, in their heresy. 

IV. Without OT precedent:

Even during the dispensation of OT inspiration, special revelation was sporadic (cf. 1 Sam 3:1). While the nation as a whole fell away, God’s word sufficed to preserve his elect. Rahner himself admits that, “before the church of Christ this absolute authority of a teaching office did not exist. The OT knew of no absolute and formal teaching authority which was recognized as such. Its ‘official’ representatives themselves could fall away from God, his revelation and his grace,” Foundations of Christian Faith (Seabury 1990), 378.

“There was no infallible teaching authority—not even before the death of Christ—in the OT, in the sense of a permanent institution, which had this inerrant character. There were prophets every now and again. But there was no infallible Church,” Inspiration in the Bible (Herder & Herder, 1961), 52.

The is largely untrue. I dealt with this sort of clever but misguided argument in the following dialogue: Dialogue with a Lutheran on Ecclesiology & OT Indefectibility Analogies (vs. Nathan Rinne) [11-22-11] and in my articles:
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Sola Scriptura, the Old Testament, & Ancient Jewish Practice [1999]
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Inspired & Infallible Prophets: Analogy to Infallible Popes [2-2-10]

Levites and the Old Covenant System vs. Sola Scriptura [4-9-06]

OT Levites & Priests: Closer to Sola Scriptura or Catholicism? [4-9-06]

Old Testament Analogies to the Catholic Rule of Faith and Binding Authority / Disanalogies to Sola Scriptura [4-9-06]

V. Nonconformity in the OT:

In this section, Hays delves into the Pharisees and especially Matthew 23:2-3. I have dealt with these issues at extreme length (no need to repeat myself):

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VI. Vox populi, vox Dei?

Vatican II grants that the community of faith is infallible in faith and morals when a popular consensus obtains (Lumen Gentium 12). But if that is so, then why bother with a Magisterium at all?

Hays, very typically of Protestant polemicists, makes what is a shared prerogative (the people and the magisterium) into an “either/or” false dichotomy, as if this is a scenario of the will of the people against the magisterium, or of such a sort that the latter becomes superfluous. Nice try but no cigar. Lumen Gentium is not teaching that at all, as is readily obvious when one simply reads Lumen Gentium 12:
12. The holy people of God shares also in Christ’s prophetic office; it spreads abroad a living witness to Him, especially by means of a life of faith and charity and by offering to God a sacrifice of praise, the tribute of lips which give praise to His name. The entire body of the faithful, anointed as they are by the Holy One, cannot err in matters of belief. They manifest this special property by means of the whole peoples’ supernatural discernment in matters of faith when “from the Bishops down to the last of the lay faithful” they show universal agreement in matters of faith and morals. That discernment in matters of faith is aroused and sustained by the Spirit of truth. It is exercised under the guidance of the sacred teaching authority, in faithful and respectful obedience to which the people of God accepts that which is not just the word of men but truly the word of God. Through it, the people of God adheres unwaveringly to the faith given once and for all to the saints, penetrates it more deeply with right thinking, and applies it more fully in its life. [my bolding and italics]
I ask: “what part of ‘shares’ and ‘agreement’ and ‘under the guidance of the sacred teaching authority’ and ‘respectful obedience’ did Hays not get?” Or was he just playing his usual games (where it is very hard indeed not to conclude that he was deliberately lying). If he had read this portion, it’s almost impossible to conclude that he couldn’t grasp it. He was often wrong, but not stupid.
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VII. The Petrine prooftexts:

Catholicism has invoked three Petrine prooftexts in support of papal primacy (Mt 16:18-19Lk 22:32Jn 21:15-17). But this appeal falls flat on numerous counts:

1. Non-sequitur:

Even if the passages did imply Petrine primacy, that doesn’t imply papal primacy.

Well it does according to frequent scriptural typology and by analogy. The extensive indications of Petrine primacy are not in the Bible for no reason. It has implications. We say this implication is his leadership of the Church and the developing and unbroken papacy of Church history.
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We need to distinguish between consistency and implication. As I’m typing these words, it’s raining outside. These two facts are mutually consistent. But my typing doesn’t imply that it’s raining, or vice versa. So even if the claims made for papal primacy dovetail with promises made to Peter, you cant’ directly papal primacy from Petrine primacy.

We certainly can in precisely the same way that the OT typology of “David as the prototype of the Messiah” implies Jesus Christ, or how Elijah was a prototype for John the Baptist, etc.

2. Hidden assumptions

Catholicism doesn’t take these texts on their own terms, but has instead allowed the papacy itself to supply the comparative frame of reference. If the papacy didn’t already exist in his mind to color his expectations, a Roman Catholic wouldn’t discover it in these passages, for they’re concerned with the role of Peter, which is historically prior to, and logically independent of, the development of the papacy. Just try that mental experiment yourself. Imagine that you’d never heard of the papacy. Would reading these verses suggest the papacy, all by themselves? You can only “see” the papacy in these verses because you’ve seen the papacy outside these verses. What a Catholic reader is sees in these verses in not an image of the papacy, but the historical afterimage of the papacy, superimposed on these verses.

We all have our biases (and that works both ways). I have always granted that. The way to overcome this is to argue one-by-one all of the Petrine / papal passages by recourse to Protestant Bible scholars only, as I did yesterday in my article, Reply to Rodrigo Silva on NT Evidences for the Papacy. Yes, I contend that one (understanding biblical typology and presentation of important figures) would see the papacy, once one was informed of all of the abundant Petrine data in the NT. In writing my reply, I discovered, to my surprise, that Peter is mentioned more times in the NT than Paul: 191 (162 as Peter or Simon Peter, 23 as Simon, and 6 as Cephas) to 184 (23 of those as “Saul”). Protestants routinely assume — and I did myself — that it’s the other way around. And part of that is the inherent Protestant bias towards Paul.
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3. A double-edged sword.

Ironically, Protestants polemicists have historically employed a parallel mode of reasoning to disprove papal claims by finding Mt 23:8-102 Thes 2:3-4,8-9 and Rev 13:6 fulfilled in the institution of the papacy. So the Catholic appeal cuts both ways. It either proves too much or too little. Its method of papal proof could be redeployed as a method of papal disproof.

No; because these alleged disproofs do not have the existence alongside them of massive indications all leading in one direction: Petrine primacy as the model of a papacy. They’re arbitrary and eisegetical and ad hoc in a way that the Petrine proofs are not at all.
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4. Mirror-reading

Insofar as you can find a parallel between the Petrine texts and the papacy, that is in the nature of a self-fulfilling prophecy. With the advantage of hindsight, the papacy has modeled itself on the Petrine texts. Thus, when it reads these verses it sees a reflection of itself staring back. But that’s a case of historical impersonation rather than prophetic foresight—like a vaticinium ex eventu. If, after the fact, the cast yourself in the very terms of fulfillment, then—voila! —you see your own face at the bottom of the well.

This is simply a variation of “2. Hidden assumptions“: and as such, has already been refuted.
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5. From Peter to papacy—a bridge too far:
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[I have rearranged the sections so the themes / arguments are placed together)

Mt 16:18 is the primary Petrine text. But a direct appeal to Mt 16:18 greatly obscures the number of steps that have to be interpolated in order to get us from Peter to the papacy. Let’s jot down just a few of these intervening steps:

a) The promise of Mt 16:18 has reference to “Peter.”
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V18 may not even refer to Peter. “We can see that ‘Petros’ is not the “petra’ on which Jesus will build his church…In accord with 7:24, which Matthew quotes here, the ‘petra’ consists of Jesus’ teaching, i.e., the law of Christ. ‘This rock’ no longer poses the problem that ‘this’ is ill suits an address to Peter in which he is the rock. For that meaning the text would have read more naturally ‘on you.’ Instead, the demonstrative echoes 7:24; i.e., ‘this rock’ echoes ‘these my words.’ Only Matthew put the demonstrative with Jesus words, which the rock stood for in the following parable (7:24-27). His reusing it in 16:18 points away from Peter to those same words as the foundation of the church…Matthew’s Jesus will build only on the firm bedrock of his law (cf. 5:19-20; 28:19), not on the loose stone Peter. Also, we no longer need to explain away the association of the church’s foundation with Christ rather than Peter in Mt 21:42,” R. Gundry, Matthew (Eerdmans 1994), 334.
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b) The promise of Mt 16:18 has “exclusive” reference to Peter.
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Is falsified by the power-sharing arrangement in Mt 18:17-18 & Jn 20:23.
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Again, I disposed of this objection in Reply to Rodrigo Silva on NT Evidences for the Papacy.
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c) The promise of Mt 16:18 has reference to a Petrine “office.”
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The conception of a Petrine office is borrowed from Roman bureaucratic categories (officium) and read back into this verse. The original promise is indexed to the person of Peter. There is no textual assertion or implication whatsoever to the effect that the promise is separable from the person of Peter.
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This involves a deductive and logical argument for succession as an interpretation of what these passages mean. I made the case in my papers:
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Here is the argument in a nutshell:
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One of the apostles (Judas) was replaced with another (Matthias) and that is in the Bible. Therefore, why wouldn’t Peter also be replaced, as the manifest leader of the apostles (and according to Jesus, the leader of the Church)?Secondly, why would there be a leader of the Church only for the lifetime of Peter? No one ever thinks like that about other offices of leadership. If a country is a monarchy, it has a succession of kings. We have a succession of Presidents in America. No one would think in 1789 that we should have George Washington to be our one and only President and then we would no longer need a President at all.
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Sports teams have successions of coaches. Corporations have a succession of CEOs, cities have mayors, schools have principals, etc. The offices or positions don’t simply end. Yet when it comes to the papacy, people think like that. It’s absurd from common sense and analogy alone, but we also have biblical data that expressly contradicts it. Protestants even acknowledge other biblical Church offices of leadership that continue (pastors and deacons, and in some cases, bishops), yet they balk at accepting even a theoretical notion of a papal succession.
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If Peter was the leader of the apostles and first head of the Church, then it only makes sense that he had successors. The burden on the Protestant, then, is to try to deny that Peter was the leader of the twelve and then of the new Christian Church. And that can’t really be done. If there is indeed such a thing as a papacy, then biblically speaking (and from analogy and common sense), there is a papal succession as well.
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d) This office is “perpetual”
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In 16:18, perpetuity is attributed to the Church, and not to a church office.
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This falls under the logical and analogical argument for papal succession, made immediately above. The Church, built upon Peter, would not ever infallibly proclaim error. Since the pope is the head and spokesman for the Church, in effect, the two are the same in terms of authority and indefectibility.
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e) Peter resided in “Rome”
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There is some evidence that Peter paid a visit to Rome (cf. 1 Pet 5:13). There is some evidence that Peter also paid a visit to Corinth (cf. 1 Cor 1:129:5).

There is solid evidence that he did and that his bones were found there, in the area where St. Peter’s is now.

f) Peter was the “bishop” of Rome
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This commits a category mistake. An Apostle is not a bishop. Apostleship is a vocation, not an office, analogous to the prophetic calling. Or, if you prefer, it’s an extraordinary rather than ordinary office.
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It’s not in light of the following:
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Eusebius:

All that time most of the apostles and disciples, including James himself, the first Bishop of Jerusalem, known as the Lord’s brother, were still alive . . . (History of the Church, 7:19, tr. G. A. Williamson, Baltimore: Penguin Books, 1965, 118)

James is called an apostle by St. Paul in Galatians 1:19 and 1 Corinthians 15:7. That James was the sole, “monarchical” bishop of Jerusalem is fairly apparent from Scripture also (Acts 12:17; 15:13, 19; 21:18; Gal 1:19; 2:12).

In Mark 6:30 the twelve original disciples of Jesus are called apostles, and Matthew 10:1-5 and Revelation 21:14 speak of the twelve apostles. After Judas defected, the remaining eleven apostles appointed his successor, Matthias (Acts 1:20-26). Since Judas is called a bishop (episkopos) in this passage (1:20), then by logical extension all the apostles can be considered bishops (albeit of an extraordinary sort).

If the apostles are bishops, and one of them was replaced by another, after the death, resurrection, and ascension of Christ, then we have an explicit example of apostolic succession in the Bible, taking place before 35 A. D. In like fashion, St. Paul appears to be passing on his office to Timothy (2 Tim 4:1-6), shortly before his death, around 65 A.D. This succession shows an authoritative equivalency between apostles and bishops, who are the successors of the apostles.

g) Peter was the “first” bishop of Rome
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The original Church of Rome was probably organized by Messianic Jews like Priscilla and Aquilla (cf. Acts 18:2Rom 16:3). It wasn’t founded by Peter. Rather, it consisted of a number of house-churches (e.g. Rom 16; Hebrews) of Jewish or Gentile membership—or mixed company.
*
We know that Peter died there, and if he did, then it stands to reason that he was the bishop, since he was the leader of the disciples of Jesus. Technically, he wouldn’t have to found the church at Rome in order to be its first bishop.
*
h) There was only “one” bishop at a time
*
NT polity was plural rather than monarchal. The Catholic claim is predicated on a strategic shift from a plurality of bishops (pastors/elders) presiding over a single (local) church—which was the NT model—to a single bishop presiding over a plurality of churches.
*
Even Protestants grant that James was the bishop of Jerusalem. And that’s strongly implied in the Bible and backed up by very early patristic testimony. But Church government developed and was quite fluid and even overlapping at first, as we would fully expect.
*
And even after you go from (i) oligarchic to (ii) monarchal prelacy, you must then continue from monarchal prelacy to (iii) Roman primacy, from Roman primacy to (iv) papal primacy, and from papal primacy to (v) papal infallibility. So step (h) really breaks down into separate steps—none of which enjoys the slightest exegetical support.
*
I’ve written about all these things, but it’s too involved to bring here, in one sub-section.
*
i) Peter was not a bishop “anywhere else.”
*
He may have been at Antioch, or he may not have been. Either way, so what?
*
j) Peter “ordained” a successor
*
By logical extension and analogy, no doubt he did, just as Paul appointed his successor and the disciples replaced Judas by ordaining Matthias
*
Peter also presided over the Diocese of Pontus-Bithynia (1 Pet 1:1). And according to tradition, Antioch was also a Petrine See (Apostolic Constitutions 7:46.).
*
Yes; great, and a non sequitur.
*
k) This ceremony “transferred” his official prerogatives to a successor.
*
Offices in the NT imply this; otherwise, they wouldn’t still exist today. Some sort of succession had to occur.
*
(j)-(k) This suffers from at least three objections:
*
i) These assumptions are devoid of exegetical support. There is no internal warrant for the proposition that Peter ordained any successors.
*
We aren’t claiming that it’s an exegetical argument. It’s a deductive argument based on other “governmental” analogies in Scripture.
*
ii) Even if he had, there is no exegetical evidence that the imposition of hands is identical with Holy Orders.

Acts 9:17 (RSV) So Anani’as departed and entered the house. And laying his hands on him he said, “Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus who appeared to you on the road by which you came, has sent me that you may regain your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit.”

Acts 13:1-4 Now in the church at Antioch there were prophets and teachers, Barnabas, Simeon who was called Niger, Lucius of Cyre’ne, Man’a-en a member of the court of Herod the tetrarch, and Saul. While they were worshiping the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said, “Set apart for me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them.” Then after fasting and praying they laid their hands on them and sent them off. So, being sent out by the Holy Spirit, they went down to Seleu’cia; and from there they sailed to Cyprus.

1 Timothy 4:11-16 Command and teach these things. Let no one despise your youth, but set the believers an example in speech and conduct, in love, in faith, in purity. Till I come, attend to the public reading of scripture, to preaching, to teaching. Do not neglect the gift you have, which was given you by prophetic utterance when the council of elders laid their hands upon you. Practice these duties, devote yourself to them, so that all may see your progress. Take heed to yourself and to your teaching; hold to that, for by so doing you will save both yourself and your hearers. (cf. 1 Tim 5:22; Heb 6:2)

2 Timothy 1:6 Hence I remind you to rekindle the gift of God that is within you through the laying on of my hands;

iii) Even if we went along with that identification, Popes are elected to papal office, they are not ordained to papal office. There is no separate or special sacrament of papal orders as over against priestly orders. If Peter ordained a candidate, that would just make him a pastor (or priest, if you prefer), not a Pope.

He’s a bishop of bishops. Hence, no need for further ordination. He simply becomes the highest and most sublimely gifted of the body of bishops.

l) The succession has remained “unbroken” up to the present day.
*
(l) This cannot be verified. What is more, events like the Great Schism falsify it in practice, if not in principle.
*
From the presence of a counterfeit pope it doesn’t inexorably follow that there is no genuine pope.
*
These are not petty objections. In order to get from Peter to the modern papacy you have to establish every exegetical and historical link in the chain. To my knowledge, I haven’t said anything here that a contemporary Catholic scholar or theologian would necessarily deny. They would simply fall back on a Newmanesque principle of dogmatic development to justify their position.
*
And the Bible and reason . . .
*
But other issues aside, this admits that there is no straight-line deduction from Mt 16:18 to the papacy. What we have is, at best, a chain of possible inferences. It only takes one broken link anywhere up or down the line to destroy the argument.
*
Since they are all weak links, they don’t succeed in overcoming the strong biblical evidence.
*
Moreover, only the very first link has any apparent hook in Mt 16:18. Except for (v), all the rest depend on tradition and dogma. Their traditional support is thin and equivocal while the dogmatic appeal is self-serving.
*
This is also untrue, as I have demonstrated over and over.
*
6. Tension between Petrine & Papal primacy:

But to put a sharper point on things, every argument for Petrine primacy is an argument against papal primacy since the more that Catholicism plays up the unique authority of Peter, as over against the Apostolic college, the less his prerogatives are transferable to a line of successors. There’s a basic tension between the exclusivity of his office vis-à-vis the Apostolate and the inclusivity of his office vis-à-vis the Episcopate.

Not at all, as long as one thinks in biblical / Hebraic “both/and” terms and not with the relentless false dichotomies of Protestantism.

In the text before us, the promises were made to the person of Peter, in contradistinction—as Catholicism would have it—to the person of James, John, or Paul. They were all apostles. That is not the distinguishing feature. And the Petrine texts don’t draw a distinction between the office and office-holder. Of course, the papal apologist is free to multiply his own distinctions, but these are devoid of textual support.

Any Christian thinker can understand the distinction between office and office-holder with just a little reflection. St. Paul illustrated the difference:
Acts 23:1-5 And Paul, looking intently at the council, said, “Brethren, I have lived before God in all good conscience up to this day.” [2] And the high priest Anani’as commanded those who stood by him to strike him on the mouth. [3] Then Paul said to him, “God shall strike you, you whitewashed wall! Are you sitting to judge me according to the law, and yet contrary to the law you order me to be struck?” [4] Those who stood by said, “Would you revile God’s high priest?” [5] And Paul said, “I did not know, brethren, that he was the high priest; for it is written, `You shall not speak evil of a ruler of your people.'”
Hays then goes off in directions far from the original topic. To spare the reader further tedium and exhaustion by this point — I’m at 6800 words — (not to mention my own sanity, after having to deal with relentless error), I’ll stop here.
***
*

Practical Matters: Perhaps some of my 4,000+ free online articles (the most comprehensive “one-stop” Catholic apologetics site) or fifty-one books have helped you (by God’s grace) to decide to become Catholic or to return to the Church, or better understand some doctrines and why we believe them.

Or you may believe my work is worthy to support for the purpose of apologetics and evangelism in general. If so, please seriously consider a much-needed financial contribution. I’m always in need of more funds: especially monthly support. “The laborer is worthy of his wages” (1 Tim 5:18, NKJV). 1 December 2021 was my 20th anniversary as a full-time Catholic apologist, and February 2022 marked the 25th anniversary of my blog.

PayPal donations are the easiest: just send to my email address: [email protected]. You’ll see the term “Catholic Used Book Service”, which is my old side-business. To learn about the different methods of contributing, including 100% tax deduction, etc., see my page: About Catholic Apologist Dave Armstrong / Donation InformationThanks a million from the bottom of my heart!

***

Summary: I systematically dismantle the caricatures of the papacy invented by the late anti-Catholic Reformed Protestant apologist Steve Hays, from the Bible and logic.

2023-02-21T16:31:46-04:00

Textbook Anti-Catholic Sophistry Tactics

[originally posted on 12-7-22 on Facebook; slight changes added on 12-26-22]

Lucas Banzoli is a very active Brazilian anti-Catholic polemicist, who holds to basically a Seventh-Day Adventist theology, whereby there is no such thing as a soul that consciously exists outside of a body, and no hell (soul sleep and annihilationism). This leads him to a Christology which is deficient and heterodox in terms of Christ’s human nature after His death. He has a Master’s degree in theology, a degree and postgraduate work in history, a license in letters, and is a history teacher, author of 25 books, as well as blogmaster (but now inactive) for six blogs. He’s active on YouTube.

This is my 55th refutation of Banzoli’s writings. For almost half a year (5-25-22 to 11-12-22) he didn’t write one single word in reply. Why? He says it’s because my articles are “without exception poor, superficial and weak . . . only a severely cognitively impaired person would be inclined to take” them “seriously.” Despite this childish rationalizing, he remarkably concluded at length that my refutations are so “entertaining” that he will “make a point of rebutting” them “one by one.” I disposed of his ubiquitous slanderous insults in Facebook posts dated 11-13-22, 11-15-22, 11-23-22, and 12-22-22. I will be ignoring them henceforth, and I thank him for so many blessings (Matthew 5:11-12).

Google Translate is utilized to render Lucas’ Portugese into English. Occasionally I slightly modify clearly inadequate translations, so that his words will read more smoothly and meaningfully in English. His words will be in blue. Words from my article that he was “critiquing” will be in green.

*****

“Lyin’ Lucas” Banzoli wrote an article is entitled, “Was Mary immaculate, sinless and the greatest creature that ever lived? (Reply to Dave Armstrong)” [12-7-22]. It’s so ridiculous that it deserves no full response. But I take this opportunity to (one last time) expose some of his endless and boorish sophistical methods: the usual, typical, never-varying anti-Catholic methodology in dealing with Catholicism.

Even if it takes a hundred years, I will make a point of responding to my newest fan’s articles one by one. . . . for Dave and many other papists, just say this and you are automatically accused of “hating” Mary . . . it is the Protestant who “hates” Mary, not the papist who idolizes her in a way that the Bible never refers to her. That’s why, if Dave ever responds to this article, it will be with more victimization and emotional attacks, not exegesis, of which he has none.
*
I specifically denied that I believe Banzoli “hates” Mary near the beginning of my article. He completely ignores that. I wrote:
*
I didn’t (and don’t) claim that Protestants “hate” Mary. Nor do I think that most Catholics believe this (though there certainly are some). I contend that they simply don’t understand the importance and crucial nature of Mariology in the overall framework of Christianity. They haven’t been properly taught. Their theological formation was deficient and insufficient. They have become spiritually impoverished or stunted. This wasn’t true — I’m delighted to report — of the original Protestants. It crept in later, as a result of the corrosion of early manifestations of cynical, skeptical theological liberalism.
*
Accordingly, I chose the word “denigration” to describe Lucas’ stated opinions. He regards the Blessed Virgin Mary as far “lower” in significance and holiness than she actually is. Although he does (happily) concede several points about her blessedness (even singular blessedness), due to her being the mother of Jesus, he doesn’t present her as the Bible does (sinless).
*
If in fact Catholics believed that Mary was a “goddess” then surely the term would appear in official [magisterial] Catholic documents somewhere. But of course it does not. If Lucas or any Protestant denies that, let them produce the documented evidence. “Put up or shut up!” Best wishes in that endeavor!
*
I never spoke of “official magisterial documents” that declare Mary a goddess. I talked about her being treated like a goddess by most Catholics, which is quite different. . . . We don’t need a paragraph in the catechism that expressly says “Mary is a goddess and we worship her”; we need only see how it is dealt with in practice, which in no way differs at all from any heathen worshiping his gods and goddesses. . . .
*
In short, the Roman Church does not really write with all the letters in an “official magisterial document” that “Mary is a goddess and needs to be worshipped”, but she exalts those who refer to her, beatifies the most idolatrous beings that ever existed , recommends the reading of these idolatrous books, recognizes terrifyingly idolatrous Marian “apparitions” and does absolutely nothing to curb the immense wave of idolatry among lay Catholics who do not miss the first opportunity to prostrate themselves before a piece of wood and stone. Of course, with all this, an “official magisterial document” is not even necessary – as if drawing was needed to make things more obvious.
*
This is pathetic. The first rule in all apologetics is to document what a theological opponent believes, from their own words or (especially) official documents. But Banzoli is beyond all that. He has magical powers to see into the hearts of “most” Catholics who treat Mary like a “goddess”: so he says in his omniscience and infinite wisdom. By this criterion of “evidence” anyone can “prove” anything.
*
But then he decides that he will document alleged Mariolatry, from no other than (you guessed it!): St. Alphonsus de Liguori; his book, The Glories of Mary. He cites twenty passages from it. This is perhaps the anti-Catholics’ favorite Catholic book. They love it. The only problem is: they only cite the parts about Mary. They virtually never cite what the same book says over and over about the primacy of Jesus as God, not Mary as a supposed goddess. I dealt with this at length over twenty years ago now:
*
*
If that’s not enough, I have similar papers about St. Louis de Montfort (2009) — whom Banzoli mentions and says is “even more scandalous” and “more idolatrous than Liguori” — , and St. Maximilian Kolbe (2010).
*
Mary was simply exceptionally holy: so much so that she was holier than any other human being created: and this as a result of God performing a special miracle of removing original sin from her at conception.
*
Dave only claims this, without proving the point anywhere in the article . . .
*
*
Banzoli then pulls out many of the usual examples of “grace” regarding others, that I dealt with way back in 2004 . . . none of them is remotely like what we have in Luke 1:28. He pulls out “all have sinned . . .” Yep; I dealt with that in 1996. He mentions Revelation 12. I’ve written five or six articles just about that, in addition to book material.
*
It is curious that we have not seen a single one of these “eminently biblical reasons” throughout Dave’s article – perhaps he is keeping an ace up his sleeve and waiting for the opportune moment to show us this bombastic text, which until today no one has ever seen. In the entire article, the only biblical text cited is the one calling Mary “blessed,” which Dave tortures to the point of turning it into a declaration of sinlessness and superiority over all of God’s creatures. This is the level of Catholic apologetics when it ventures to try to appear “biblical.”
*
I guess Banzoli has never heard of a “link”: or if he has, he doesn’t know how to click on it and go to another page online. He needs to learn that soon. I don’t repeat myself unnecessarily if I’ve already written about something. I simply link to it.
*
Perhaps that is why many Catholics literally see her as a kind of deity – just like the words of Alphonsus de Liguori . . . They pay lip service to “veneration,” but in practice, everything they do is indistinguishable from true worship . . . Only a completely alienated or ill-intentioned person would not be able to understand how Mary has a place of primacy in Catholicism that goes far beyond Christ – whether we call it “worship” or not.
*
No proof; just the idiotic “many” or “most” Catholics supposedly believe Mary is a goddess. This is beneath contempt. It’s simply pure bigotry towards and prejudice against Catholics.
*
***

Practical Matters: Perhaps some of my 4,000+ free online articles (the most comprehensive “one-stop” Catholic apologetics site) or fifty books have helped you (by God’s grace) to decide to become Catholic or to return to the Church, or better understand some doctrines and why we believe them.

Or you may believe my work is worthy to support for the purpose of apologetics and evangelism in general. If so, please seriously consider a much-needed financial contribution. I’m always in need of more funds: especially monthly support. “The laborer is worthy of his wages” (1 Tim 5:18, NKJV). 1 December 2021 was my 20th anniversary as a full-time Catholic apologist, and February 2022 marked the 25th anniversary of my blog.

PayPal donations are the easiest: just send to my email address: [email protected]. You’ll see the term “Catholic Used Book Service”, which is my old side-business. To learn about the different methods of contributing, including 100% tax deduction, etc., see my page: About Catholic Apologist Dave Armstrong / Donation InformationThanks a million from the bottom of my heart!

***

Photo credit: The Ghent Altarpiece: Virgin Mary (detail; bet. 1426-1429), by Jan van Eyck (c. 1390-1441) [public domain / Wikimedia Commons]

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Summary: Anti-Catholic Brazilian polemicist Lucas Banzoli pulls out all the stops in inventing a warped, twisted, caricatured “Mary”. I dismantle his myths one-by-one.

2022-12-15T13:42:36-04:00

Atheist and anti-theist Bob Seidensticker runs the influential Cross Examined blog. I have critiqued 80 of his posts, but he hasn’t counter-replied to any of them. Nevertheless, he was gracious enough to send me a free e-book copy of his new volume, 2-Minute Christianity: 50 Big Ideas Every Christian Should Understand (May 2022). He (unsurprisingly) declined to discuss it back-and-forth, but at least we were civil and cordial. Since I have responded to so much of his material, over four-and-a-half years, I decided to see how many of the 50 issues raised by this book have already, in effect, been “resolved” in my existing writings. And I’ll add a few present responses as well. His words will be in blue.

*****

Bob writes in his Introduction: “Is Christianity true? If it is, it can withstand critique. If you have a religious belief, it should be grounded by evidence and reason.” The blurb on the Amazon book page adds: “If God wanted mindless faith, he wouldn’t have given you a mind.” Yep; I couldn’t agree more. That’s what I have devoted my life’s work to: offering evidence and reason for all aspects of the Christian faith (what is called “apologetics”). And so I’ll apply that goal to this book. It offers critiques; here I offer solid, superior Christian answers to them. Let the reader decide who has made a better, more convincing case. 

1 Map of World Religions

Let’s return to the map of world religions. Religions claim to give answers to life’s big questions, answers that science can’t give. . . . But the map shows that the religious answers to those questions depend on where you are. . . . We ask the most profound questions of all, and the answers are location specific? What kind of truth depends on location?

38 Christianity Without Indoctrination

39 The Monty Hall Problem

48 Religion Reflects Culture

No truth depends on location; I fully agree. I don’t deny that people’s opinions mostly arise from their environment (“we are what we eat”). But I go on to note that atheists are no different. So, for example, in England about 50% of the population is non-religious (which comes down to atheist or “practical atheist” — which I used to be, myself, up until age 18: living one’s life as if God doesn’t exist).

Therefore, by the very same reasoning that Bob offers, I’d bet good money that in twenty years from now, the atheist population will remain at least this high and maybe grow. And why would that be, if so? It’s precisely because most people adopt the religion or other worldview of their parents. So the atheist growing up in an intensely secularized English home will (big shock!) likely turn out to be an atheist, just as ostensibly Christian environments churn out Christians: at least in name only (sadly, often not much more).

Bob’s buddy and fellow Internet anti-theist John Loftus is very big on this argument. He calls it “the outsider test of faith.” I answered his argument over fifteen years ago, and (as usual) he decided not to grapple with my critique. Here is part of what I wrote:

Religion needs to be held with a great deal more rationality and self-conscious analysis for the epistemological basis and various types of evidences for one’s own belief. I believe everyone should study to know why they believe what they believe.

This “one becomes whatever their surroundings dictate” argument can be turned around as a critique of atheism. Many atheists — though usually not born in that worldview — nevertheless have decided to immerse themselves in atheist / skeptical literature and surround themselves with others of like mind. And so they become confirmed in their beliefs. We are what we eat. In other words, one can voluntarily decide to shut off other modes and ways of thinking in order to “convince” themselves of a particular viewpoint. That is almost the same mentality as adopting a religion simply because “everyone else” in a culture does so, or because of an accident of birth. People can create an “accident of one-way reading” too.

My position, in contrast, is for people to read the best advocates of any given debate and see them interact with each other. That’s why I do so many dialogues. John Loftus could write these papers, and they may seem to be wonderfully plausible, until someone like me comes around to point out the fallacies in them and to challenge some of the alleged facts. Read both sides. Exercise your critical faculties. Don’t just read only Christians or only atheists. Look for debates where both sides know their stuff and have the confidence to defend themselves and the courage and honesty to change their opinions if they have been shown that truth and fact demand it.

Another related “turn the tables” argument along these lines is to note that many famous atheists had either no fathers, or terrible ones, with whom they had little relationship (as I have written about). They projected that onto God as the Cosmic Father and rejected Him.

This was true with regard to atheists such as Freud, Marx, Feuerbach, Baron d’Holbach, Bertrand Russell, Nietzsche, Sartre, Camus, Schopenhauer, Hobbes, Samuel Butler, H. G. Wells, Carlyle, Madalyn Murray O’Hair, and Albert Ellis. Theology based on family relations or lack thereof? That’s hardly a rational or objective analysis. That proves nothing. But there you have it: many atheists have this background: a “map of atheist families” so to speak.

2 A Leaky Ark

This is not one sustained argument, but the typical atheist “100 questions at once” routine. No one can possibly answer all these questions at once (which is why this cynical tactic is often used), unless they have made a sustained, in-depth study of the matter, as I have.

To see the many articles I’ve written about it, please visit my Bible & Archaeology / Bible & Science collection, and  word-search “Noah’s Flood” and “Flood & Noah” for all the resources. Here I’ll make brief replies to a sampling of four of Bob’s innumerable rapid-fire “gotcha”” questions.

It would have required tens of thousands of big trees. Where did the wood come from?

We know that wood was available in northern Mesopotamia around 2900 BC (when and where I posit that a local Flood occurred) and could be shipped down the Tigris and Euphrates rivers to the plains where wood was scarce.

How could all the world’s species fit on board?

They didn’t have to, since it was a local Mesopotamian flood.

What did the carnivores eat while on the voyage?

I suggested a possible solution to that in a 2015 article.

A worldwide flood would have buried the bodies of animals from the same ecosystem together. . . . The fossil record doesn’t show this. . . . Geologists tell us there is no evidence for a worldwide flood, . . . 

Again, educated Catholics and Protestants alike have believed that the Flood was local, not worldwide (and that the Bible, rightly interpreted, is fully harmonious with this view), for well over a hundred years now. I addressed this straw man in a reply to atheist Jonathan MS Pearce a few months back.

3 The Bible’s Shortsighted View of the Universe

Here Bob mocks biblical cosmology, which he clearly doesn’t understand very well; and so he presents the usual caricatured, warped view of the biblical skeptic. I’ve written many articles along these lines:

Biblical Flat Earth (?) Cosmology: Dialogue w Atheist (vs. Matthew Green) [9-11-06]

Flat Earth: Biblical Teaching? (vs. Ed Babinski) [9-17-06]

Genesis Contradictory (?) Creation Accounts & Hebrew Time: Refutation of a Clueless Atheist “Biblical Contradiction” [5-11-17]

Seidensticker Folly #21: Atheist “Bible Science” Absurdities [9-25-18]

Seidensticker Folly #23: Atheist “Bible Science” Inanities, Pt. 2 [10-2-18]

Carrier Critique #3: Bible Teaches a Flat Earth? [3-31-22]

4 Christianity as Society’s Burden

The period when Christianity was in charge in Europe didn’t stand out for the flowering of science and technology. There was innovation during the medieval period (eyeglasses, the water wheel, metal armor and gunpowder weapons, castles, crop rotation, and others), but that was in spite of Christianity, not because of it.

10 The Society that Christianity Gave Us

47 Christianity’s Big Promises

This is sheer nonsense and myth. Eminent physicist Paul Davies (as far as I can tell, a pantheist) stated in his 1995 Templeton Prize Address:

All the early scientists such as Newton were religious in one way or another. … science can proceed only if the scientist adopts an essentially theological world view.

Philosopher Alfred North Whitehead (1861-1947) expressed the same notion in his book Science and the Modern World (1925):

The inexpugnable belief that every detailed occurrence can be correlated with its antecedents in a perfectly definite manner … must come from the medieval insistence on the rationality of God …

My explanation is that the faith in the possibility of science, generated antecedently to the development of modern scientific theory, is an unconscious derivative from medieval theology.

One of the leading philosophers of science, Thomas Kuhn (1922-1996), elucidated the medieval background in his book, The Copernican Revolution (New York: Vintage Books / Random House, 1959):

After the Dark Ages the Church began to support a learned tradition as abstract, subtle, and rigorous as any the world has known … The Copernican theory evolved within a learned tradition sponsored and supported by the Church … (p. 106)

The centuries of scholasticism are the centuries in which the tradition of ancient science and philosophy was simultaneously reconstituted, assimilated, and tested for adequacy. As weak spots were discovered, they immediately became the foci for the first effective research in the modern world. … And more important than these is the attitude that modern scientists inherited from their medieval predecessors: an unbounded faith in the power of human reason to solve the problems of nature. (p. 123)

Loren Eiseley, an anthropologist, educator, philosopher, and natural science writer, who received more than 36 honorary degrees, and was himself an agnostic in religious matters, observed:

It is the Christian world which finally gave birth in a clear articulated fashion to the experimental method of science itself … It is surely one of the curious paradoxes of history that science, which professionally has little to do with faith, owes its origins to an act of faith that the universe can be rationally interpreted, and that science today is sustained by that assumption. (Darwin’s Centenary: Evolution and the Men who Discovered it, New York: Doubleday: 1961, p. 62)

In my research, I have discovered that Christians or theists were the founders of at least 115 different scientific fields (see the entire list). Here are a select 49 from that list (an asterisk denotes a Catholic priest):

  • Anatomy, Comparative: Georges Cuvier (1769-1832)  Astronomy, Big Bang Cosmology: Georges Lemaître (1894-1966*)
  • Atomic Theory: Roger Boscovich (1711-1787*) John Dalton (1766-1844)
  • Bacteriology: Louis Pasteur (1822-1895)
  • Biochemistry: Franciscus Sylvius (1614-1672) / Antoine Lavoisier (1743-1794)
  • Biology / Natural History: John Ray (1627-1705)
  • Calculus: Blaise Pascal (1623-1662)
  • Cardiology: William Harvey (1578-1657)
  • Chemistry: Robert Boyle (1627-1691)
  • Dynamics: Isaac Newton (1642-1727)
  • Electrodynamics: André-Marie Ampère (1775-1836) / James Clerk Maxwell (1831-1879)
  • Electromagnetics: André-Marie Ampère (1775-1836) / Michael Faraday (1791-1867) / Joseph Henry (1797-1878) /
  • James Clerk Maxwell (1831-1879)
  • Electronics: Michael Faraday (1791-1867) / John Ambrose Fleming (1849-1945)
  • Genetics: Gregor Mendel (1822-1884*)
  • Geology: Blessed Nicolas Steno (1638-1686*) / James Hutton (1726-1797)
  • Geophysics: Jose de Acosta (1540-1600*)
  • Hydraulics: Leonardo da Vinci (1452-1519) / Blaise Pascal (1623-1662)
  • Hydrodynamics: Blaise Pascal (1623-1662)
  • Mechanics, Celestial: Johannes Kepler (1571-1630)
  • Mechanics, Classical: Isaac Newton (1642-1727)
  • Mechanics, Quantum: Max Planck (1858-1947) / Werner Heisenberg (1901-1976)
  • Mechanics, Wave: Erwin Schrödinger (1887-1961)
  • Meteorology: Evangelista Torricelli (1608-1647) / Lazzaro Spallanzani (1729-1799*)
  • Neurology: Charles Bell (1774-1842)
  • Paleontology: John Woodward (1665-1728)
  • Paleontology, Vertebrate: Georges Cuvier (1769-1832)
  • Pathology: Marie François Xavier Bichat (1771-1802) / Thomas Hodgkin (1798-1866) / Rudolph Virchow (1821-1902)
  • Physics, Atomic: Joseph J. Thomson (1856-1940)
  • Physics, Classical: Isaac Newton (1642-1727)
  • Physics, Experimental: Galileo Galilei (1564-1642)
  • Physics, Mathematical: Johannes Kepler (1571-1630) / Christiaan Huygens (1629-1695) / Isaac Newton (1642-1727)
  • Physics, Nuclear: Ernest Rutherford (1871-1937)
  • Physics, Particle: John Dalton (1766-1844)
  • Physiology: William Harvey (1578-1657)
  • Probability Theory: Pierre de Fermat (c. 1607-1665) / Blaise Pascal (1623-1662) / Christiaan Huygens (1629-1695)
  • Scientific Method: Francis Bacon (1561-1626) / Galileo Galilei (1564-1642) / Pierre Gassendi (1592-1655*)
  • Seismology: John Michell (1724-1793)
  • Stellar Spectroscopy: Pietro Angelo Secchi (1818-1878*) / Sir William Huggins (1824-1910)
  • Stratigraphy: Blessed Nicolas Steno (1638-1686*)
  • Surgery: Ambroise Paré (c. 1510-1590)
  • Taxonomy: Carol Linnaeus (1707-1778)
  • Thermochemistry: Antoine Lavoisier (1743-1794)  Thermodynamics: James Joule (1818-1889) / Lord Kelvin (1824-1907)
  • Thermodynamics, Chemical: Josiah Willard Gibbs (1839-1903)  Thermodynamics, Statistical: James Clerk Maxwell (1831-1879)  Thermokinetics: Humphrey Davy (1778-1829)
  • Transplantology: Alexis Carrel (1873-1944) Joseph Murray (b. 1919)
  • Volcanology: Athanasius Kircher (1602–1680*) / Lazzaro Spallanzani (1729-1799*) / James Dwight Dana (1813-1895)  Zoology: Conrad Gessner (1516-1565)

See also:

Reply to Atheist Scientist Jerry Coyne: Are Science and Religion Utterly Incompatible? [7-13-10]

Christianity: Crucial to the Origin of Science [8-1-10]

Books by Dave Armstrong: Science and Christianity: Close Partners or Mortal Enemies? [10-20-10]

Albert Einstein’s “Cosmic Religion”: In His Own Words [originally 2-17-03; expanded greatly on 8-26-10]

Atheist French, Soviet, & Chinese Executions of Scientists [10-22-15]

Loftus Atheist Error #7: Christian Influence on Science [9-9-19]

The Bible is Not “Anti-Scientific,” as Skeptics Claim [National Catholic Register, 10-23-19]

The ‘Enlightenment’ Inquisition Against Great Scientists [National Catholic Register, 5-13-20]

Embarrassing Errors of Historical Science [National Catholic Register, 5-20-20]

Seidensticker Folly #44: Historic Christianity & Science [8-29-20]

5 Jesus, the Great Physician

15 The Bible Has No Recipe for Soap

In addition to soap, the Bible could have then added the basics of health care—when and how to use this soap, how boiling will purify water, how to build and site latrines, how to avoid polluting the water supply, how to respond to a plague, how germs transmit disease, the basics of nutrition, how to treat wounds, and so on. After health, it could outline other ways to improve society—low-tech ways to pump water, spin fiber, make metal alloys, keep livestock healthy, or improve crop yields.

Bob goes after the Bible as supposedly anti-medicine, because healings took place, and there is no recipe for soap. It’s not. I’ve written about this several times, too.

Demonic Possession or Epilepsy? (Bible & Science) [2015]

The Bible on Germs, Sanitation, & Infectious Diseases [3-16-20]

Bible on Germ Theory: An Atheist Hems & Haws (. . . while I offer a serious answer to his caricature regarding the Bible and genetics) [8-31-21]

6 Argument from Desire

Theistic Argument from Desire: Dialogue w Atheist [12-2-06]

Theistic Argument from Longing or Beauty, & Einstein [3-27-08; rev. 3-14-19]

Dialogue with an Agnostic: God as a “Properly Basic Belief” [10-5-15]

Implicit (Extra-Empirical) Faith, According to John Henry Newman [12-18-15]

Argument for God from Desire: Atheist-Christian Dialogue [8-7-17]

7 Psalm 22 Prophecy

Reply to Atheist on Messianic Prophecies (Zech 13:6, Ps 22) [7-3-10]

8 Ontological Argument

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9 Original Sin
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Trent Horn, “Is Original Sin Stupid?” (Catholic Answers, 7-10-18)
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Fr. Jerry J. Pokorski, “Original Sin, the Decoder of Human Nature” (Catholic Answers, 2-25-22)
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11 Paul’s Famous Creed
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Jesus “raised on the third day according to the Scriptures” is a reference to the book of Jonah (“Jonah was in the belly of the fish three days and three nights”), but the resurrection can’t be “according” to this scripture when the author of Jonah wasn’t making a prophecy. And this “prophecy” fails since Jesus was dead for only two nights, from Friday evening to Sunday morning.
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12 Christianity Answers Life’s Big Questions
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19 Kalam Cosmological Argument
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The only “begins to exist” we know of is the rearrangement of existing matter and energy. An oak tree begins with an acorn and builds itself from water, carbon dioxide, and other nutrients, but God supposedly created the universe ex nihilo (“out of nothing”). The apologist must then defend “Whatever begins to exist from nothing has a cause,” but there is no evidence to support this claim.
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16 Christianity Meets its Match [Mormonism]
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17 Euthyphro Dilemma
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Does God have such a fixed, external source of morality that he consults? Then Christians are caught on one horn of the dilemma. Or does the buck have to stop somewhere, and God is it? Then Christians are caught on the other horn. Neither makes God look good.
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18 Morality, Purpose, and Meaning
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Morality, purpose, and meaning don’t come from outside our world but have always been ours to define.
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34 Why Is Christianity Conservative?
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Perhaps most surprising is that Paul taught nothing about the Trinity, . . .
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This is dead-wrong and astonishingly ignorant . . . see his many many statements about the Trinity and deity of Christ in my compilations:
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Jesus is God: Hundreds of Biblical Proofs (RSV edition) [1982; rev. 2012]
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50 Biblical Proofs That Jesus is God [National Catholic Register, 2-12-17]
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21 God Loves the Smell of Burning Flesh
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22 Thought Experiment on Bible Reliability
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The time between when Matthew was written and our best copies, averaging the gap chapter by chapter, is two hundred years. It’s a little less for Luke and John and a little more for Mark. How do we know those books made it through that obscure dark period without significant change?
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31 25,000 New Testament Manuscripts
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I just wrote yesterday, in replying to another atheist:

The oldest extant manuscript for the Histories of the Greek historian Herodotus (c. 484 – c. 425 BC), for example, is Codex Laurentianus LXX, from the 10th century (see more information on his manuscripts). By my math that is 1300-1500 years after it was written. The History of the Peloponnesian War was written at the end of the 5th century BC by Thucydides (c. 460 – c. 400 BC). The earliest manuscript for it dates from the 11th century (1400-1500 years later). The Geography by Strabo (c. 64 BC – c. 24 AD) was composed shortly before the birth of Christ. The best manuscript is from the end of the tenth century (900-1,000 years later).

I think readers get the idea, without need of further examples. The moral of the story is: “don’t try to make out that biblical manuscripts or editorial / linguistic revisions, etc., are something wholly unique, or uniquely problematic.”

The classic example of extraordinary preservation of biblical texts is the complete Isaiah scroll from the Dead Sea Scrolls. One Christian website summarizes:

A significant comparison study was conducted with the Isaiah Scroll written around 100 B.C. that was found among the Dead Sea documents and the book of Isaiah found in the Masoretic text. After much research, scholars found that the two texts were practically identical. Most variants were minor spelling differences, and none affected the meaning of the text.

One of the most respected Old Testament scholars, the late Gleason Archer, examined the two Isaiah scrolls found in Cave 1 and wrote, “Even though the two copies of Isaiah discovered in Qumran Cave 1 near the Dead Sea in 1947 were a thousand years earlier than the oldest dated manuscript previously known (A.D. 980), they proved to be word for word identical with our standard Hebrew Bible in more than 95 percent of the text. The five percent of variation consisted chiefly of obvious slips of the pen and variations in spelling.”

So a measly two hundred years? That’s nothing . . .

23 Isaiah 53 Prophecy
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this suffering servant is likely the nation of Israel, punished through the Babylonian exile. This is also the traditional Jewish interpretation. In addition, any parallels between the Isaiah 53 “suffering servant” and Jesus are easily explained by the gospel authors using the Jewish scripture to embellish the gospels.
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24 Atheists Need the Christian Worldview
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“God did it” is no more useful or informative than “logic and arithmetic are just properties of our reality” or “that’s just the way it is” or even “I don’t know.” An interesting question has been suppressed, not resolved. In fact, by the theologian’s own reasoning, his answer rests in midair because he gives no reason to conclude God exists. His claim is no more believable than that from any other religion—that is, not at all.

The person who stops at “God did it” has stated an opinion only—an opinion with no evidence to support it. It doesn’t advance the cause of truth at all. Mathematics is tested, and it works. God is an unnecessary and unhelpful addition to the mix.

25 Transcendental Argument

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26 Women at the Tomb
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If Bob’s argument here were coherent and clear, I would provide some answer for it. But I read it three times and, for the life of me, I can’t figure out what in the world he is contending (it’s not the usual claim in resurrection disputes, of allegedly contradictory accounts), so I’ll pass. Bob’s writing — wrong though it invariably is  — is usually quite easy to understand. Since Bob won’t dialogue with me, I guess I’ll likely never find out. Not that I will lose any sleep over it or have an existential crisis . . .
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27 When God Lies
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God once lied through a prophet. King Ahab of Israel consulted his 400 prophets about an upcoming battle, and they assured him of success. Only one prophet predicted disaster, but he was correct. God wanted Ahab to die and authorized a spirit to cause the other prophets to lie to lure him into the battle.
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In the Exodus story, God hardened Pharaoh’s heart to prevent him from releasing the Israelites. The New Testament has God doing the same thing. To those destined for hell, “God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.”

The Jewish opponents of Jesus were treated the same way. They saw his miracles. They didn’t believe, but not because the evidence was poor, because they didn’t understand, or because they were stubborn. No, they didn’t believe because God deliberately prevented them from believing. “[God] has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts, so they can neither see with their eyes, nor understand with their hearts.” But why harden the hearts of bad people? Were they going to do bad things of their own accord or not?

Perhaps atheists also don’t believe because God hardened their hearts. If so, why do they deserve hell?

God “Hardening Hearts”: How Do We Interpret That? [12-18-08]

28 Fruits of Christianity

Now consider hospitals. Christians might point to medieval hospitals to argue that they were pioneers in giving us the medical system we know today, but without science, a hospital can do nothing but give food and comfort. Church-supported hospitals centuries ago were little more than almshouses or places to die.

Seidensticker Folly #59: Medieval Hospitals & Medicine [11-3-20]

Seidensticker Folly #60: Anti-Intellectual Medieval Christians? [11-4-20]

Medieval Christian Medicine Was the Forerunner of Modern Medicine [National Catholic Register, 11-13-20]

Carrier Critique #4: Bible & Disease & Medicine (+ Medical Advances Made in the Christian-Dominated Middle Ages) [3-31-22]

“Medieval medicine of Western Europe” (Wikipedia)

“Forget folk remedies, Medieval Europe spawned a golden age of medical theory” (Winston Black (professor of medieval history], The Conversation, 5-14-14)

“Medicine or Magic? Physicians in the Middle Ages” (William Gries, The Histories, Vol. 15, Issue 1, 2019)

“Top 10 Medical Advances from the Middle Ages” (Medievalists.Net, Nov. 2015). The ten advances are the following:

Hospitals / Pharmacies / Eyeglasses / Anatomy and Dissection / Medial Education in Universities / Ophthalmology and Optics / Cleaning Wounds / Caesarean sections / Quarantine / Dental amalgams

Scientific & Empiricist Church Fathers: To Augustine (d. 430) [2010]

Christian Influence on Science: Master List of Scores of Bibliographical and Internet Resources (Links) [8-4-10]

33 Empiricist Christian Thinkers Before 1000 AD [8-5-10]

23 Catholic Medieval Proto-Scientists: 12th-13th Centuries [2010]

St. Augustine: Astrology is Absurd [9-4-15]

Catholics & Science #1: Hermann of Reichenau [10-21-15]

Catholics & Science #2: Adelard of Bath [10-21-15]

A List of 244 Priest-Scientists [Angelo Stagnaro, National Catholic Register, 11-29-16]

A Short List of [152] Lay Catholic Scientists [Angelo Stagnaro, National Catholic Register, 12-30-16]

29 Christianity Looks Invented

historians of religion tell us Yahweh looks like other Canaanite deities of the time. There were other tribes in Canaan, and the Bible mentions these—for example, Ammon, Midian, and Edom, as well as Israel—and each had its own god. This I’ve-got-my-big-brother-and-you-have-yours approach is henotheism, halfway between polytheism (lots of gods, and each affects our world) and monotheism (just one god—any others are imposters). With henotheism, each tribe assigned itself its own god. They acknowledged the existence of the other tribes’ gods but worshipped only one. Moloch was the god of the Ammonites, Chemosh was the god of the Midianites, and Yahweh was the god of the Israelites.

Yahweh looks like nothing but one more invented god.

35 Biblical Polytheism

42 The Combat Myth

46 God’s Kryptonite

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The Bible Teaches That Other “Gods” are Imaginary [National Catholic Register, 7-10-20]
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30 The Ten Commandments

Most Christians know the story of Moses and the Ten Commandments, but few realize that God created two very different versions of the Law.

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Or look at the practice of Christianity today. Why is there a Bible Answer Man radio program, and why does GotQuestions.org boast that it has more than half a million Bible questions answered? Shouldn’t God’s message be so clear that there would be no questions to answer? Why are there 1600-page books on systematic theology—why would the study of a perfect god need this? Why is it so complicated? 

Bible “Difficulties” Are No Disproof of Biblical Inspiration [National Catholic Register, 6-29-19]

“Difficulty” in Understanding the Bible: Hebrew Cultural Factors [2-5-21]

An Omniscient God and a “Clear” Bible [National Catholic Register, 2-28-21]

33 Recreating Christianity

Now imagine that all knowledge of Christianity were lost as well. A new generation might make up something to replace it, since humans seem determined to find the supernatural in our world, but they wouldn’t recreate the same thing. There is no specific evidence of the Christian God around us today. The only evidence of God in our world is tradition and the Bible. Lose them, and Christianity would be lost forever.

Bob comes up with this thought experiment and then provides the Christian and biblical answer to it:

The Bible comments on our thought experiment. It claims, “Since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.” [Romans 1:20] But that’s exactly the problem—God is not clearly seen.

Having solved the problem, Bob simply denies that God is seen in His creation. Well, that’s his opinion. Virtually all of the greatest minds in the first several hundred years of scientific development agreed with this and were theists or Christians. So were many of the greatest philosophers in western civilization. They all saw what Bob can’t see. So how do we decide who is right? Even Einstein stated:

My religiosity consists of a humble admiration of the infinitely superior spirit that reveals itself in the little that we can comprehend about the knowable world. That deeply emotional conviction of the presence of a superior reasoning power, which is revealed in the incomprehensible universe, forms my idea of God. (To a banker in Colorado, 1927. Cited in the New York Times obituary, April 19, 1955)

Everyone who is seriously involved in the pursuit of science becomes convinced that a spirit is manifest in the laws of the universe — a spirit vastly superior to that of man . . . In this way the pursuit of science leads to a religious feeling of a special sort . . . (To student Phyllis Right, who asked if scientists pray; January 24, 1936)

Then there are the fanatical atheists . . . They are creatures who can’t hear the music of the spheres. (August 7, 1941)

My point is that perceiving God in the universe that He made is not utterly implausible or unable to be held by the most rigorous, “non-dogmatic” intellects, such as Albert Einstein and David Hume (who — contrary to a widespread myth — was a deist or “minimal theist” and actually accepted one form of the teleological argument). And the atheist has to account for that fact somehow, it seems to me. Hume wrote:

The order of the universe proves an omnipotent mind. (Treatise, 633n)

Wherever I see order, I infer from experience that there, there hath been Design and Contrivance . . . the same principle obliges me to infer an infinitely perfect Architect from the Infinite Art and Contrivance which is displayed in the whole fabric of the universe. (Letters, 25-26)

The whole frame of nature bespeaks an intelligent author; and no rational enquirer can, after serious reflection, suspend his belief a moment with regard to the primary principles of genuine Theism and Religion . . .

Were men led into the apprehension of invisible, intelligent power by a contemplation of the works of nature, they could never possibly entertain any conception but of one single being, who bestowed existence and order on this vast machine, and adjusted all its parts, according to one regular plan or connected system . . .

All things of the universe are evidently of a piece. Every thing is adjusted to every thing. One design prevails throughout the whole. And this uniformity leads the mind to acknowledge one author. (Natural History of Religion, 1757, ed. H.E. Root, London: 1956, 21, 26)

Now, I ask atheists: whence comes Einstein’s “deeply” felt “conviction” or Hume’s conclusion of “an infinitely perfect Architect”? Is it a philosophical reason or the end result of a syllogism? They simply have it. It is an intuitive or instinctive feeling or “knowledge” or “sense of wonder at the incredible, mind-boggling marvels of the universe” in those who have it. Bob doesn’t have this sense. But he has no rational or objective or logical basis with which to mock those — like Einstein and Hume — who do. Their experience is their own, just as Bob’s is his own: all equally valid in terms of the person’s subjective perspective or epistemological warrant.

36 Virgin Birth Prophecy

Reply to Atheist Jonathan MS Pearce: “Mistranslation” of “Virgin”? (Isaiah 7:14) (with Glenn Miller) [7-26-17]

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37 God’s Hiddenness
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40 Historians Reject the Bible Story
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Here Bob says that historians reject the Gospels because they contain miracles. It’s too broad of a statement. Not all historians do so. Meanwhile, there continues to be a lot of archaeological and historical confirmation of the Gospels’ historical trustworthiness:
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Pearce’s Potshots #64: Archaeology & 1st Century Nazareth [2-25-22]

Ehrman Errors #11: Luke the Unreliable Historian? (Debunking Yet More of the Endless Pseudo-“Contradictions” Supposedly All Over the Bible) [3-28-22]

King Herod Agrippa I (d. 44 AD) Eaten By Worms: Pure Myth & Nonsense or Scientifically Plausible? [Facebook, 10-8-22]

41 Who Wrote the Gospels?
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How do we know the apostle Mark wrote the gospel of Mark? How do we know Mark recorded the observations of Peter, an eyewitness?

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43 The Crucifixion
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Here, Bob delves into deep waters of Christian soteriology (the theology of salvation): talking off the top of his head. There is no point in wrangling with him about such matters. He doesn’t even understand the elementary things of Christianity. He could no more grasp this than a two-year-old could comprehend calculus or the theory of relativity. As Paul explained in 1 Corinthians 2:14: “The unspiritual man does not receive the gifts of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.”
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44 Finding Jesus Through Board Games
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This is scarcely an argument. It’s basically a totally subjective, biased thought experiment. It carries no force or challenge, and so it need not be replied to.
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45 Jesus on Trial
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This is no argument, either. Rather, it is a plea for folks to remain open-minded and open to a change of mind. As one who has undergone many major changes of mind in my life: in religion, morals, political positions, and other matters, I completely agree!
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49 Religions Continue to Diverge
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This gist of this is that “religious folks disagree, therefore, no single religious view can possibly be true, or even largely true.” This is “epistemological kindergarten” thinking, and as such, deserves no further attention.
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50 The Great Commission
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Here, Bob preaches to Christians, authoritatively interprets several biblical injunctions, and suggests we be more like atheists. Not an argument . . .
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Photo credit: cover of Bob Seidensticker’s 2-Minute Christianity: 50 Big Ideas Every Christian Should Understand [Amazon book page]

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Summary: I provide answers to atheist anti-theist Bob Seidensticker’s “2-Minute” anti-Christian arguments: neatly compiled into fifty two-page provocative, polemical queries.

 

 

2024-01-02T11:45:16-04:00

Reply to Atheist “Lex Lata”

This is a reply to a guest article on Jonathan MS Pearce’s atheist blog, by “Lex Lata”: a sharp and fairly civil atheist commentator (a professor?), with whom I have had some stimulating dialogue now and then. It’s entitled, “A study in straw: Apologetics, alphabets, and the Torah” (11-30-22). His words will be in blue.

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The prevailing consensus among modern scholars of the Bible and Semitic philology (the study of structure and history of languages) is that the Torah—or Pentateuch, if Greek is your cuppa—was largely composed or compiled in its present form during the first millennium BCE. 

“Composed” and “compiled” are two different things. The latter allows for the possibility of it having been written in the 13th century BC (the period of Moses), but later edited and translated according to the changes in language, sometime after King David’s reign (c. 1000 BC), when classic Hebrew was formulated. This is what I shall contend. The two things aren’t mutually exclusive.

This would place it compiled some centuries after the latest period depicted in it. . . .

Our earliest confirmed Old Testament manuscripts are papyrus fragments and scrolls dated to at least a thousand years after the time of Moses, and are written in first-millennium Hebrew with a late first-millennium script. We have zero extant inscriptions, tablets, or papyri of the Torah itself—not even fragmentary—from the second millennium.

It’s interesting that Lex exclusively uses the word “compiled” in the first excerpt above. He’s being very cautious and “academically nuanced.” Compilations, later editions, manuscripts, etc. are always relevant factors for ancient works: especially those that rely heavily or solely on oral traditions at their onset. This is nothing novel at all, even for biblical books (which can possibly undergo revision like any other books). If we compare the pentateuch or Torah (the first five books of the Old Testament) to secular works, this is readily apparent.

The oldest extant manuscript for the Histories of the Greek historian Herodotus (c. 484 – c. 425 BC), for example, is Codex Laurentianus LXX, from the 10th century (see more information on his manuscripts). By my math that is 1300-1500 years after it was written. The History of the Peloponnesian War was written at the end of the 5th century BC by Thucydides (c. 460 – c. 400 BC). The earliest manuscript for it dates from the 11th century (1400-1500 years later). The Geography by Strabo (c. 64 BC – c. 24 AD) was composed shortly before the birth of Christ. The best manuscript is from the end of the tenth century (900-1,000 years later).

I think readers get the idea, without need of further examples. The moral of the story is: “don’t try to make out that biblical manuscripts or editorial / linguistic revisions, etc., are something wholly unique, or uniquely problematic.” Lex clearly exhibits his bias in his next sentence:

Yet certain advocates of an orthodox or fundagelical bent cling to the tradition that Moses himself wrote the first five books of the Bible, ca. 1450-1250 BCE. 

In other words (reading in-between the lines), “some fanatical, irrationally religious folks [complete with a derogatory term for them] ‘cling’ to the antiquated, thoroughly refuted notion that Moses actually wrote the pentateuch.” Following his line of reasoning, this appears to mean that Lex rules out as a virtual impossibility the scenario whereby Moses wrote the books, which were then subject to revision in later centuries (mostly due to evolving language). But it’s not impossible at all. Compilations and revisions do not change the fact that a human being or collection of people originally wrote what is being edited.

My own proposed dates for the life of Moses, by the way, that I utilize in my upcoming book, The Word Set in Stone: How Science, History, and Archaeology Prove Biblical Truth (Catholic Answers Press,  2023) are c. 1340 or 1330 B.C.-c. 1220 or 1210 B.C. (extrapolating from Egyptologist Kitchen A. Kitchen’s date for the Exodus: c. 1260-1250 BC). Some Christians (mostly Protestant) follow a chronology which is about two centuries earlier than the one I follow, and which most Christian archaeologists espouse.

Lex then goes into the analysis which forms the main thrust of his article: Christian apologists often assert a straw-man argument which is a protest against academics who have supposedly argued in recent times that Moses couldn’t have written these books because the precursors of Hebrew did not exist, and (in some instances) they claim he was also illiterate, etc. These were arguments that have indeed been made, but almost always a long time ago (18th-19th centuries), by the infallible, oh-so-intellectually-superior “higher critics”.

Christian apologetics does have a bad habit of “being stuck in the past” too often, and fighting against skeptical positions that have long since been modified or refined (but to be fair, it’s also true that skeptic-types often take many decades to admit that they were wrong about anything). I know, because I’ve been part of this community for forty years, both in evangelical and Catholic environments. Lex makes a big fuss about this:

most scholars across the spectrum of belief—Protestant, Catholic, Jewish, None, etc.—doubt Mosaic authorship for numerous other reasons that have nothing to do with any supposed absence of an adequate script.

Lex then provides what he thinks is an example of this error, citing Sean McDowell, son of the famous Protestant apologist Josh McDowell:

Let us look at a few such examples from the apologetics community. Sean McDowell states in this recent clip, “As an apologist, I’ve heard sometimes that there was not even an alphabet during the time of Moses, so he couldn’t have written the first five books of the Bible.”  

Now look closely at what he stated (with the aid of my added italics and bolding). He simply said that he has “heard sometimes” this notion that the Hebrew alphabet didn’t yet exist. He didn’t claim it was even scholars saying this (and there is no further context to determine more precisely what he was referring to). Therefore, his reference could apply to any atheist or skeptical, theologically liberal Tom, Dick, or Harry: not solely the academic eggheads. Yet Lex later in his article makes a big deal about the scarcity of present skeptical scholars asserting this sort of thing. His example is scarcely even relevant to his overall argumentation. Hence, it turns out that he trots out a straw man, in his indignation about too many straw men in apologetics. The irony, if I do say so, is quite delicious and comical.

His next reference, from Scott Stripling of the Associates for Biblical Research, is much more to the point, since Scott mentioned “Our friends from the other side of the academic aisle . . .” Here, Lex has a valid point. If Dr. Stripling claims there are such opinions among academics, I fully agree, he ought to document them. Perhaps he did in the 57-minute video clip that Lex linked to. I don’t have time to spend an hour listening to that, to find out. If he didn’t, Lex’s gripe is valid in his case. And a third example he provides is of this second type. He complains:

We’re not even given names. Who are these “skeptics,” these “friends” from liberal academia, these “some” scholars? It’s a mystery.

Again, I agree. They should be named. These men could have brought up a guy like Bart Ehrman: the famous anti-theist atheist, who is indeed an academic: in the Dept. of Religious Studies at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. He is so clueless that he stated the following, three days before the time of this writing:

One [“problem”] involves a reality that ancient Christians may not have taken into account, but that scholars today are keenly aware of.  Most of the apostles were illiterate and could not in fact write. They could not have left an authoritative writing if their soul depended on it. (“Writing Forgeries to Show the Truth,” The Bart Ehrman Blog, 12-10-22)

Ehrman doesn’t even think that Jesus could read and write:

Could Jesus Read? Probably Not [sub-heading] My strong sense is that Jesus could not write. . . .  I am slightly inclined to the view that Jesus could read. (“Could Jesus Read?,” The Bart Ehrman Blog, 4-20-21; bolding and italics in the original)

The next question from the atheist at this juncture would be: “what does Ehrman think about Moses’ literacy?”  Ehrman doesn’t know, so he tells us:

Let’s find out a bit more about Moses. As you may have noticed, on a number of occasions I get asked questions that I simply can’t answer.  I received one such question this week, about the history of the Hebrew language.  Here is how the questioner phrased it:

What is our earliest evidence for Hebrew as a written language? I’ve been to apologetic seminars where they say it’s long been said by atheists that the Hebrew Bible can’t be trusted because the Hebrews didn’t have a written language until well after the stories in the OT would’ve taken place. . . .

It’s actually amazing how many topics I’m not familiar with at all!  So, not knowing the answer, I asked a colleague of mine who is an expert in Hebrew philology, [who provided Ehrman with a nuanced explanation of evolving language, similar to my own beliefs: “It depends on what you define as Hebrew,” etc.] . . .

When Ehrman asked his colleague the question, he wrote:

Someone has asked me the question below.  Damn if I know!

Ehrman then asked his friend a “follow-up” question:

The questioner was not a scholar, but an interested lay person, who was especially interested in the question of whether, if there was a Moses living in say the 13th c BCE, he would have been able to write.  Do you have an opinion?  (I myself  don’t think there *was* a Moses, but still,  assuming there was…) (“Could Moses Write Hebrew & What Language Could Moses Speak?,” The Bart Ehrman Blog, 8-25-17)

So there you have it: a present-day, widely-known atheist NT scholar, who denies that Moses existed, but thinks that if he did, he himself — remember, a widely published religious studies professor — can’t figure out whether he would have been able to read or write, or whether any form of “Hebrew” existed in his time. I used his example in my upcoming book. Lex wants names? I gave him one.

Then Ehrman cited his friend across the hall: Joseph Lam, who is Associate Professor in the Dept. of Religious Studies at the same college (see his curriculum vitae):

The texts of the Pentateuch, whoever wrote them, are NOT in the 13th-century language; they are in classical 1st millennium Hebrew. Whatever a hypothetical 13th century Moses wrote, whether, in Egyptian or Canaanite or something else, that’s NOT what we have preserved in the Pentateuch.

This gets to the crux of the issue! Rather than dealing with crackpot blowhards like Ehrman, we can sensibly, constructively discuss this serious issue, whatever our own beliefs are: how do we get to the classic Hebrew text of the Torah that we have, and explain the process by which Moses supposedly wrote the initial text, which was revised over time to a type of Hebrew that developed long after his death?” There is a way to preserve Mosaic authorship, while acknowledging an editorial and linguistic development. Egyptologist Kenneth A. Kitchen sums up this position:

The recently invented West Semitic alphabet [was] a vehicle deigned by and for Semitic speakers (and writers). The oldest known examples have been the Lachish dagger epigraph from a seventeenth-century tomb and the Tell Nagila sherd (Middle/Late Bronze, ca. 1600); we now have also the Wadi Hol graffiti in Egypt from northwest of Thebes, about the seventeenth century. . . . To these must be added the proto-Sinaitic inscriptions of disputed date—circa 1800 or circa 1500. This system of not more than thirty simple, semipictographic letters would have been very easy to use in writing up (on papyrus) a “first written edition” of the patriarchal traditions from Abraham to Jacob, to which a Joseph account could be added. This set of basic narratives could then be recopied from circa 1600 to the thirteenth century, then given a “late Canaanite” editing in that phase of the script, eventuating into early standard Hebrew language and script from the united monarchy [c. 1000 B.C.] onward. . . . This straightforward view is at least consistent with all the factual data that we currently possess, and keeps theorizing to a minimum. (On the Reliability of the Old Testament [Grand Rapids, Michigan and Cambridge: William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company, 2003], 370-371)

From the fourteenth/thirteenth century onward, the [Canaanite] alphabet could be freely used for any form of communication. The contemporary north Semitic texts found at Ugarit in north Phoenicia illustrate this to perfection. . . . The Amarna evidence [c. 1360-1332 B.C.] and handful of pottery finds prove clearly that Canaanite was the dominant local tongue and could be readily expressed in alphabetic writing. . . . During the two centuries that followed, circa 1200-1000, standard Hebrew evolved out of this form of Canaanite, probably being fully formed by David’s time. Copies of older works such as Deuteronomy or Joshua would be recopied, modernizing outdated grammatical forms and spellings, . . . (Ibid., 304-305)

Lex then goes on to what is, in effect “Part 2” of his article:

So if the existence of writing is not a problem, why does the modern consensus reject the traditional assumption that Moses himself wrote the Torah? The reasons are legion, and would—indeed, do—fill copious books and articles far longer than this article, as many readers here know. But perhaps a few key factors warrant mentioning. (What follows is by no means exhaustive.)

I know the feeling. Below, I will provide 50 reasons why we think a Mosaic authorship in the 13th century BC is suggested. The skeptics think they have their multitudinous reasons justifying their views. So do we. It’s just that very few ever seem to learn about ours, and our beloved skeptics are usually quite unfamiliar with them (hence, rarely interact with them). Maybe Lex will be the exception to the rule, if he ever reads this.

The Torah’s description of the Ancient Near East aligns far better with the perspective and archaeology of the first millennium BCE than the second. Certain elements of the narrative likely have their roots in events of the Bronze Age Collapse of the late second millennium, but numerous place names, peoples, geographical features, and other data “are most closely associated with the Saite and Persian periods, or about the seventh to fifth centuries BCE.”  (Lester L. Grabbe, Ancient Israel: What Do We Know and How Do We Know It? (2017), p. 97.)

What I will provide below will be expressly contradictory to this outlook. Lex and others can and may interact with it if they so choose. But if my long experience attempting serious discussions with atheists (both online and in person) is any indication, no one will. But I’d never be more pleased to be wrong.

The books of the Torah contain several statements that make little sense coming from MosesFor example, the early story of Abram/Abraham tells us the Canaanites were still then in the land west of the Jordan (Genesis 12:6, 13:7), suggesting a date of composition after the Canaanites were displaced or replaced by the Israelites—in other words, years after the death of Moses.

This would be precisely the sort of thing that would have been a clarifying small addition later on. I have addressed several of those in my voluminous writings on alleged biblical contradictions (which I hope to make into my next book). In these cases, we agree: Moses didn’t write them.

Deuteronomy 1:1 depicts Moses speaking to the Israelites beyond (on the other/east side of) the River Jordan, a word choice indicating the author was writing from the west side, on which we’re told Moses never set foot.

This doesn’t prove that Moses wrote from west of the River Jordan, only that terminology is used that was later common: “beyond the Jordan.” That is, Moses was addressing folks east of the river, where he was: in the area that later was referred to as “beyond the Jordan”. See my previous response.

Deuteronomy 34 describes the death and interment of Moses, obviously a difficult passage for a deceased man to compose, no matter how well-educated he was at the Egyptian court. 

This is typical, garden variety, intended “gotcha!” polemics from atheists. And the logical answer is that Joshua, Moses’ successor, wrote the obituary. Moreover, Lex assumes that Deuteronomy 34 makes statements suggesting that Moses was its author (hence, the basis for his mockery). It does not. The book of Deuteronomy starts out (1:1) by proclaiming: “These are the words that Moses spoke to all Israel beyond the Jordan in the wilderness, in the Arabah over against Suph, between Paran and Tophel, Laban, Haze’roth, and Di’-zahab.” Deuteronomy 34 is not Moses speaking to “all Israel.” It’s someone else describing his death and the circumstances leading up to it. It’s an obituary or memorial. Likewise, in the book of Jeremiah, at the end of chapter 51 (51:62), it states: “Thus far are the words of Jeremiah.” But the book has one more chapter.

Moreover, it’s impossible to overlook the brute grammatical reality that the Torah refers consistently to Moses in the third person, not the first.

So what? Julius Caesar did the same in the Gallic Wars. So did Thucydides in his History of the Peloponnesian War, where he wrote: “Thucydides, an Athenian, wrote the history of the war . . .”, and in 4.104.4: “The opponents of the betrayers . . . sent to the other commander of the areas in Thrace, Thucydides, son of Olorus . . .” Roman Jewish historian Josephus wrote in his work, The Jewish War: “John, son of Ananias, was appointed commander of Gophna and Acrabetta, and Josephus, son of Matthias, of each of the two Galilees” (2.568).

It’s also very common in the Bible. In the book of Jeremiah, both first person and third are used (I cite RSV):

First Person

Jeremiah 1:11 And the word of the LORD came to me, saying, “Jeremiah, what do you see?”  . . . (cf. 1:12-14)

2:1 The word of the LORD came to me, saying,  (cf. 13:3, 8; 16:1; 18:5; 24:4)

24:3 And the LORD said to me, “What do you see, Jeremiah?” . . .

Third Person

Jeremiah 7:1 The word that came to Jeremiah from the LORD: (cf. 11:1; 18:1; 21:1; 25:1-2; 27:1; 28:12; 30:1; 33:1)

14:1 The word of the LORD which came to Jeremiah concerning the drought:

19:14 Then Jeremiah came from Topheth, where the LORD had sent him to prophesy, and he stood in the court of the LORD’s house, and said to all the people: (cf. 20:1-3)

26:7 The priests and the prophets and all the people heard Jeremiah speaking these words in the house of the LORD.

And so on and so forth . . . Both forms occur in Ezekiel in the space of four verses (1st person, then 3rd person, then back to 1st):

Ezekiel 1:1 In the thirtieth year, in the fourth month, on the fifth day of the month, as I was among the exiles by the river Chebar, the heavens were opened, and I saw visions of God.

Ezekiel 1:3 the word of the LORD came to Ezekiel the priest, the son of Buzi, in the land of the Chalde’ans by the river Chebar; and the hand of the LORD was upon him there.

Ezekiel 1:4 As I looked, behold, a stormy wind came out of the north, . . .

The book of Ezra switches suddenly to first person, from its usual third person perspective; for example: Ezra 7:28; 8:1, 15-16; 9:1, 3-4.

Jesus frequently talks about Himself in the third person, such as when He refers to the “Son of Man” (which is a messianic title) and refers in context to this person (Himself) as “he” or “his”. “Son of Man” appears 82 times in the Gospels, so this is not an uncommon occurrence.

Matthew 9:6 But that you may know that the Son of man has authority on earth to forgive sins” — he then said to the paralytic — “Rise, take up your bed and go home.”

Matthew 17:22 As they were gathering in Galilee, Jesus said to them, “The Son of man is to be delivered into the hands of men,”

Matthew 20:28 “even as the Son of man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.”

Matthew 26:2 “You know that after two days the Passover is coming, and the Son of man will be delivered up to be crucified.”

Luke 7:34 “The Son of man has come eating and drinking; and you say, `Behold, a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!’

Luke 9:58 And Jesus said to him, “Foxes have holes, and birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man has nowhere to lay his head.”

Luke 22:48 but Jesus said to him, “Judas, would you betray the Son of man with a kiss?”

John 9:35-37 Jesus heard that they had cast him out, and having found him he said, “Do you believe in the Son of man?” [36] He answered, “And who is he, sir, that I may believe in him?” [37] Jesus said to him, “You have seen him, and it is he who speaks to you.”

All of this shows that merely noting that Moses is referred to in the third person in the Torah is no unassailable argument against his authorship.

few passages in the Torah depict Moses writing specific things down, but thePentateuch never claims divine or Mosaic authorship.”  The books of the Torah are broadly anonymous on their face. The tradition of Mosaic authorship appears to be an extrinsic phenomenon that likely developed in ancient Hebrew culture during the middle or last half of the first millennium BCE.

Let me take the first of two separate claims first: does the Pentateuch “never” claim divine authorship (i.e., never assert that it is inspired revelation)? This is massively false, and it’s another notorious instance of the dumbest thing anyone can ever do in an argument (don’t do it!): assert a “universal negative.”

In Exodus, the phrase “The LORD said” appears 62 times. 54 of those times, it’s followed by “to Moses.” In Leviticus it’s even more clear: “The LORD said” appears 34 times, and every time it’s followed by “to Moses.” In Numbers, the same two figures are 72 and 64. In Deuteronomy, “The LORD said” appears 18 times, and “The LORD said to Moses” three times. But, “The LORD said to me” appears 14 times. And guess who is the “me” every time? You got it: Moses. That leaves one more instance of “the LORD” talking to someone in Deuteronomy: “And the LORD said to him, . . . ” (34:4). In context (34:1, 5-8), this, too, is directed to Moses.

From the textual facts we learn that these books claim to be inspired. Revelation is God’s communication to mankind. So “the LORD said” is a clear indication of this inspired revelation. The phrase occurs 186 times in Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy combined. 170 of those instances (or 91%) are directed towards Moses. Therefore, it doesn’t take a rocket scientist to conclude that these books:

1) claim to be inspired,

and

2) claim to be communicated from God to us primarily by one man, who is relentlessly identified as its author and/or messenger: Moses.

So where does Lex get off claiming that “the Pentateuch never claims divine authorship”? What kind of convoluted, discombobulated “reasoning” is this? Whether one believes in the text or not, it clearly asserts certain things; and these books claim to be (at least 186 times) revelation from God, passed through Moses.

There are additional sorts of arguments within the Bible for Mosaic authorship (remember, Lex’s claim — agreeing with a link title, was, “the Pentateuch never claims . . . Mosaic authorship”):

Exodus 24:3-4 Moses came and told the people all the words of the LORD and all the ordinances; and all the people answered with one voice, and said, “All the words which the LORD has spoken we will do.” [4] And Moses wrote all the words of the LORD. . . .

Exodus 34:27 And the LORD said to Moses, “Write these words; in accordance with these words I have made a covenant with you and with Israel.”

Numbers 33:1-2 These are the stages of the people of Israel, when they went forth out of the land of Egypt by their hosts under the leadership of Moses and Aaron. [2] Moses wrote down their starting places, stage by stage, by command of the LORD; and these are their stages according to their starting places.

Deuteronomy 31:9 And Moses wrote this law, and gave it to the priests the sons of Levi, who carried the ark of the covenant of the LORD, and to all the elders of Israel.

Deuteronomy 31:22 So Moses wrote this song the same day, and taught it to the people of Israel.

Baruch 2:28 as thou didst speak by thy servant Moses on the day when thou didst command him to write thy law in the presence of the people of Israel, . . .

Mark 10:3-5 He answered them, “What did Moses command you?” [4] They said, “Moses allowed a man to write a certificate of divorce, and to put her away.” [5] But Jesus said to them, “For your hardness of heart he wrote you this commandment.

The phrase, “law of Moses” appears 14 times in the Old Testament books agreed to by all Christians. “written in the book of the law of Moses” occurs three times in these books. Nehemiah 8:1 states: “. . . they told Ezra the scribe to bring the book of the law of Moses which the LORD had given to Israel.” “Law of Moses” appears eight times in the New Testament, including two direct references from Jesus (Lk 24:44; Jn 7:23). The word “Moses” appears 80 times in the NT: many of these casually assuming that he wrote the books that are being cited or otherwise referred to as being written by him:

Matthew 8:4 And Jesus said to him, “. . . offer the gift that Moses commanded, . . .”

Matthew 19:7-8 They said to him, “Why then did Moses command one to give a certificate of divorce, and to put her away?” [8] He said to them, “For your hardness of heart Moses allowed you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so.

Mark 1:44 and [Jesus] said to him, “See that you say nothing to any one; but go, show yourself to the priest, and offer for your cleansing what Moses commanded, for a proof to the people.” (cf. Lk 5:14)

Mark 12:26 And as for the dead being raised, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the passage about the bush, how God said to him, `I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’?

Luke 20:37 But that the dead are raised, even Moses showed, in the passage about the bush, where he calls the Lord the God of Abraham and the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob.

Luke 24:27, 44 And beginning with Moses and all the prophets, he interpreted to them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself. [44] Then he said to them, “These are my words which I spoke to you, while I was still with you, that everything written about me in the law of Moses and the prophets and the psalms must be fulfilled.”

John 1:45 Philip found Nathan’a-el, and said to him, “We have found him of whom Moses in the law and also the prophets wrote, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.”

John 5:46-47 If you believed Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote of me. [47] But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe my words?”

John 7:19, 23 Did not Moses give you the law? Yet none of you keeps the law. Why do you seek to kill me?” . . . [23] . . . so that the law of Moses may not be broken . . .

Acts 7:44 “Our fathers had the tent of witness in the wilderness, even as he who spoke to Moses directed him to make it, according to the pattern that he had seen.

Acts 26:22 . . . I stand here testifying both to small and great, saying nothing but what the prophets and Moses said would come to pass:

Hebrews 9:19 . . . every commandment of the law had been declared by Moses to all the people . . .

Additional biblical evidence:

Joshua 1:7-8 . . . being careful to do according to all the law which Moses my servant commanded you; . . .  [8] This book of the law shall not depart out of your mouth, . . .

2 Kings 21:8 “. . . if only they will be careful to do according to all that I have commanded them, and according to all the law that my servant Moses commanded them.”

Malachi 4:4 “Remember the law of my servant Moses, the statutes and ordinances that I commanded him at Horeb for all Israel.”

It seems like there is not a single passage in the Bible which claims that the pentateuch was written by anyone but Moses. At any rate, I have not seen such a verse, to my knowledge (after 45 years of intense Bible study and apologetics). If anyone finds such a passage, please let me know.

Suffice it to say that practicing scholars explore any number of serious archaeological, geographical, historical, literary, paleographical, and philological reasons to think that the Torah as we know it is a comparatively late product of a complicated developmental process. 

Great. Two can play at that game. So here are 50 external reasons from archaeology and history for why traditional Christians and scholars in general who maintain an open mind, believe that Moses originally wrote the lion’s share of the Pentateuch in the 13th century BC:

1) Third Millennium BC Egyptian Tabernacle Parallels: Kitchen (ibid., 275) noted that biblical skeptics and minimalistic archaeologists have long since decreed that “the tabernacle is an exilic or postexilic figment of the imagination of Jewish priests (ca. sixth to fourth centuries B.C.), seeking to glorify their cult . . . by projecting a ‘tented’ form of Solomon’s temple back to the time of Moses . . .” He then proceeded to discuss “clear analogues from earlier epochs, and in particular before the Hebrew monarchy” (p. 276). In the 1920s, the tomb of Queen Hetepheres, mother of Khufu, builder of the Great Pyramid (c. 2600 BC), yielded a “secular tabernacle” with a gold covered wooden framework, fitted together with tenon and socket joints, with vertical and horizontal beams or poles, corners with special fitments (Ex 26:23), draped with curtains. In the shaft down to her tomb, a more religious similar structure was found, with limestone socket-bases (cf. silver bases in the biblical tabernacle: Ex 26:19-25). Four different Egyptian tombs, c. 2500 BC. yielded large tents with poles linked by horizontal rods along the top (cf. Ex 26:26-28). Kitchen concluded: “Thus, in Egypt, most of the biblical tabernacle’s technology was literally ‘as old as the Pyramids,’ . . . a thousand years before even a Moses, never mind exilic priests” (p. 276). So much for this skeptical myth . . .

2) Mari [Syrian] Tabernacle Parallels: texts dated 18th-17th century BC (four or five centuries before Moses) describe “tents or ‘tabernacles’ borne on wooden frames, using the same term (but in form qersu) as the Hebrew qerahim, ‘frames'” (Kitchen, p. 277). The texts refer to 43 men needed to transport these portable tents, with its cover, frames, bases (cf. Ex 26:18-25), and seeming units of latticework, perhaps to form an enclosure, as in the Bible (Ex 27:9-10). One of the texts also references sacrifices of an ass within this tent.

3) Ugaritic [Syrian] Tabernacle Parallels: from the 13th century BC, but with archaic language hearkening back to much earlier times, discovered tablets describe the supreme god El dwelling in a tent “(qershu), using the same term as found at Mari and Exodus” (Kitchen, p. 277). “Tents” and “tabernacles” are described “using the words ahl and mishkan(atu) in parallel, precisely as in Hebrew . . . contemporary at latest . . . with our Sinai tabernacle” (p. 277).

4) No Mesopotamian Tabernacle Parallels: “Father east, by contrast, Mesopotamia proper (Assyria and Babylonia) shows almost no use at all of such tents/tabernacles, at any period” (Kitchen, ibid., p. 277).

5) Second Millennium BC Egyptian (Striking!) Tabernacle Parallels:

Tuthmosis III (cs. 1479-1425) built . . . at Karnak temple what was a translation into stone of a pillared tent. Throughout the New Kingdom, but famously illustrated by the finds in the tomb of Tutankhamun (ca. 1336-1327), the pharaohs had concentric tabernacle-like shrines nested over their coffins, like huge wooden “boxes,” gold-plated, dismountable, and fitted together with tenons in sockets like the Hebrew tabernacle . . . faded linen decorated with gilded bronze rosettes . . . (Kitchen, ibid., p. 278)

Pharaoh Ramesses II (c. 1275 BC) had a rectangular tent divided in two parts (like the biblical tabernacle). The smaller inner room had figures of divine falcons facing each other and shadowing the royal name with their wings, as the cherubim did in the biblical tabernacle (Ex 25:20, 22; Num 7:89; eight others). “The concept of an empty sacred throne for a present but invisible deity was already current long since in Egypt” (Kitchen, p. 280).

6) First Millennium Assyrian Camps Not Analogous to the Tabernacle: these were “regularly  round or oval” (Kitchen, ibid., p. 278)

7) Tutankhamun’s Tomb Very Similar to the Ark of the Covenant: “[T]he ark of the covenant (Exod. 25:10-22; 37:1-9) . . . was essentially a gilded box on four feet, with four rings (two each side) to take two carrying poles. The arrangement is identical to that of a famous box from Tutankhamun’s tomb [c. 1336-1327], with just such rings and poles” (Kitchen, ibid., p. 280)

8) Silver Trumpets of Numbers 10:1-10:

In contrast to the curly ram’s-horn shofar, the silver trumpets (hasoseroth) were long tubes with flared mouths. These too were in type and use characteristic of New Kingdom Egypt. From Tutankhamun’s tomb (again!) we have two such trumpets, one of silver, one of copper or bronze overlaid with gold. Such instruments are commonly shown in scenes, used exactly in the functions decreed in Num. 10. (Kitchen, p. 280)

9) Tabernacle Workers Parallels: inside the biblical tabernacle’s sanctuary priests alone served; in the outer court the Levites worked (Num 18:1-7; cf. 3:7-10). This was the case at Hittite temples in the 14th and 13th centuries. Punishments were also analogous in Hatti, Israel, and Egypt during this period. (see Kitchen, p. 280)

10) Tabernacle Consecration Rituals: Exodus 20 and Leviticus 8-9 describe these rituals, lasting seven days, for appointing the high priest (originally Aaron, Moses’ brother) and other priests. These were formerly claimed (and maybe still: who knows?) to have originated from the postexilic period (6th c. BC or later), because parallels had not been found. Now that has changed. Findings at Emar: another present-day Syrian site, from the 1970s, revealed elaborate nine-day rites which included anointing with oil (cf. Lev 8:2, 12, 30). Also, the Hittite ritual of Ulippi for inducting a deity into a new shrine shows strong similarities, and lasted six or seven days. (Kitchen, pp. 280-281)

11) Animal Sacrifices Atoning for Human Sin: this can be found in Hittite rites in the 14th-13th centuries BC. (see Kitchen, p. 281)

12) Graded / Differential Offerings: this was common in Hittite and Emar offerings  in the Late Bronze Age, compete with the disdain for blemished offerings: both aspects very familiar from the Bible. (see Kitchen, p. 282)

13) Seven-Year Cycles / Year of Jubilee (Lev 25): this is found in surrounding cultures from the early second millennium BC. The zukru festival at Emar was every seven years, with preparatory rites in the sixth.  (see Kitchen, p. 282)

14) Mosaic Law: Especially in Deuteronomy (Hittite Parallels: 1380-1180 BC):

Sinai and its two renewals — especially the version in Deuteronomy — belong squarely . . . within 1400-1200 [BC], and no other date. The impartial and very extensive evidence (thirty Hittite-inspired documents and versions!) sets this matter beyond any further dispute. It is not my creation, it is inherent in the mass of original documents themselves, and so cannot be gainsaid, if the brute facts are to be respected. (Kitchen, pp. 287-288)

There can be no further squirming and wriggling away from the facts; old subterfuges must be discarded. . . . The Sinai documents have an indubitably fourteenth/thirteenth century format . . . (Ibid., p. 289)

The whole matter of treaty and covenant goes back most of half a century to a pair of seminal articles by G. E. Mendenhall published in the Biblical Archaeologist in 1954. There he pointed out the clear congruences between the format of the Hittite corpus of treaties and part of Exodus plus Josh. 24, suggesting that the Sinai covenant might well have had thirteenth-century roots. . . . However, this whole development was not acceptable to the “old guard”: in biblical studies, for whom a nineteenth-century belief in a late “law” (sixth/fifth centuries), after the prophets, and 621 as the definitive date of Deuteronomy were absolute dogmas to be fanatically defended, even at the cost of facts to their contrary. . . .

The “formulation of the Hittite treaties” is unique to the period between 1400 and 1200 (more exactly, ca. 1380-1180), precisely because the body of known documents from before 1400 is radically different in format — and so is the more limited group of documents from circa 900-650. And factually, that is the end of the matter. (Ibid., p. 289-290)

15) Prologues of Treaties:

The stark fact remains, that out of eighty or more documents, all known prologues (historical and otherwise) precede the twelfth century, and none is attested in the first millennium. . . . Biblicists must stop evading the clear mass of evidence, and face up to the facts as they are. (Kitchen, p. 291)

16) Ancient Pedigree of Deuteronomic Curses: it has been argued by the skeptics and minimalists that the curses in Deuteronomy derived from Neo-Assyrian treaties of the seventh century BC. But this tradition was widely in existence for almost two thousand years  before the seventh century. (Kitchen, p. 291) “forty correlations with earlier periods (thirty before 1200)” . . . (Kitchen, p. 294)

17) Bonds and Oaths in Treaties: in late second-millennium documents and not in the first millennium, a “bond” was referred to “only before the oath element of blessings and curses, and then the joint expression of bond and oath after that feature (so in Deut. 29:12, 14, English text; Heb. is 29:11, 13); this could not be reinvented six hundred years later without its cultural context.” (Kitchen, p. 294)

18) The Term “People for His Own Possession” [RSV] in Deuteronomy (4:20; 7:6; 14:2; 26:18):

The term segulla, “especial treasure,” . . . is not some special, late term coined by seventh-century “Deuteronomists,” but is common coin throughout the Semitic world from the early second millennium onward. Old Babylonian examples (Akkad, sikiltu) occur in the laws of Hammurabi and at Alalakh (eighteenth century), and at Nuzi in the fifteenth century. It recurs (as sglt) at Ugarit in the thirteenth century, and occasionally thereafter. These usages are old, not late, and do not depend on strictly Hebraic “Deuteronomism,” be it real or illusory. (Kitchen, p. 294)

19) Egyptian Treaties with the Hittites: Kitchen notes how Pharaohs Sethos I (r. c. 1294-1279 B.C.) and Ramesses II (r. 1279-1213 B.C.) signed treaties with Hittite kings and that “scribes at both courts produced drafts to be exchanged for mutual approval or amendment”—which would in turn “explain how a Hebrew leader might later come to use this convenient and appropriate framework for the Sinai covenant.” (Kitchen, pp. 297-298)

20) Seasons in the Torah: these are Egyptian and not Palestinian; for example, the reference to crop sequence in Exodus 9:31-32: “(The flax and the barley were ruined, for the barley was in the ear and the flax was in bud. But the wheat and the spelt were not ruined, for they are late in coming up.)” (See, Gleason L. Archer, Jr., A Survey of Old Testament Introduction [Chicago: Moody Press, 1964], p. 105)

21) Non-Palestinian Acacia Tree in the Torah: the acacia tree is indigenous to Egypt and Sinai, but not Palestine. It’s a desert tree, used for tabernacle furniture (see 27 examples in the pentateuch). (see Archer, ibid., p. 105)

22) Non-Palestinian Geographical Terms and Descriptions: In Genesis 13:10, the “Jordan valley” was described as “like the land of Egypt, in the direction of Zo’ar.” In Genesis 23:2, Hebron is called by its Canaanite name, “Kir’iath-ar’ba (that is, Hebron).” Numbers 13:22 states: “Hebron was built seven years before Zo’an in Egypt.” Passages like these show a familiarity with Egyptian geography and events. (see Archer, p. 106)

23) Children By Handmaidens: “Notably in the legal documents discovered at Nuzi and dating from the fifteenth century we discover references top the custom of begetting legitimate children by handmaidens (as Abraham did with Hagar).” (Archer, p. 107)

24) Definite Article in Hebrew: it has been objected that the definite article would not have been used in Moses’ time. But it was precisely during the 18th Dynasty of Egypt (1550-1292 BC) that the definite article appeared, and the Torah exhibits a full-fledged use. (see Archer, pp. 107-108)

25) “Ishmaelites coming from Gilead, with their camels bearing gum, balm, and myrrh” (Gen 37:25): “gum” (tragacanth) and “the balm of Gilead” are acknowledged in secular science today as substances from ancient Israel or Palestine, including Gilead (modern-day Jordan), precisely as the Bible accurately states. The “balm of Gilead grew only around the Dead Sea Basin in ancient times. Archaeological and historiographical evidence massively shows that trade routes for at least myrrh (and likely also balm of Gilead and tragacanth) were long established by the time of Joseph (the larger passage referred to his being sold into slavery).

26) Price of Slaves: Kenneth A. Kitchen contends that we know from “ancient Near Eastern sources” the price of slaves in that region in significant detail, from 2400 B.C. to 400 B.C., and that we know “from the Laws of Hammurabi and documents from Mari and elsewhere” that the price was twenty shekels: precisely as the Bible states. I maintain, based on Kitchen’s extraordinary multi-faceted scholarship, that Joseph lived in the eighteenth century B.C., so these sources perfectly corroborate the biblical view, since they derive from the nineteenth and eighteenth centuries B.C. Kitchen goes on to note that Exodus 21:32 (in the Mosaic Law) required a payment of “thirty shekels” to a slave owner “if someone else’s ox gores the slave to death.” Sure enough, this was the price of slaves in the fourteenth and thirteenth centuries, when Moses lived. Kitchen concluded by asking a pointed question, in effect towards biblical skeptics:

If all these figures were invented during the Exile (sixth century B.C.) or in the Persian period by some fiction writer, why isn’t the price for Joseph 90 to 100 shekels, the cost of a slave at the time when that story was supposedly written? And why isn’t the price in Exodus also 90 to 100 shekels? It’s more reasonable to assume that the biblical data reflect reality in these cases. (“The Patriarchal Age: Myth or History?”, Biblical Archaeology Review 21:02, March/April 1995)

27) Famine Mentioned in Genesis: Another aspect of the story of Joseph that can be verified or questioned by means of archaeology and historical research is the alleged famine in Israel during the times of both Abraham and Joseph (Gen 12:10; 26:1-2; 42:5; 43:1 and the contrasting abundance of food in Egypt (Gen 12:10; 41:57; 42:1-2; 47:12), though, Egypt, too, suffered to a relatively lesser degree (Gen 47:13). Archaeologist James Hoffmeier noted that this lines up with what we know regarding Egypt, Canaan, and famine, as well as
migratory patterns:

For a period roughly from 1800 to 1540 B.C., Egypt was an attractive place for the Semitic-speaking people of western Asia to migrate. . . . This span of time coincides with the traditional “Patriarchal Period” and therefore fits the period and circumstances described in Genesis when Abraham, Isaac (almost), and Jacob went to Egypt in search of food, water, and green pastures. (James K. Hoffmeier, Israel in Egypt: The Evidence for the Authenticity of the Exodus Tradition [Oxford University Press, 1996], p. 68)

28) Joseph the “Overseer”: Genesis 39:4 informs us that Joseph was an “overseer” of the house of Potiphar (39:1), a high-ranking official under the Pharaoh. Hoffmeier backs up the existence of such an office at that time:

Papyrus Brooklyn 35.1446 [dated 1809-1743 B.C.] lists the Semitic names of dozens of male and female servants attached to a particular estate. The third column from the right on the papyrus contains their trade or occupation. Interestingly, a number of these servants are identified as hry-pr, literally, “he who is over the house,” which is translated “domestic servant.” (Ibid., p. 84)

29) Egyptian Names in the Joseph Story: The names in question are Potiphar, Joseph’s master (Gen. 39:1), his wife Asenath and father-in-law Potipherah, and Zaphenath-paneah, Joseph’s Egyptian name, given to him by the Pharaoh (41:45). Hoffmeier stated about these four names: “all agree that they are undeniably Egyptian” (ibid., p. 87). Kitchen believes that the dating of Zaphenath is “Middle Kingdom to early New Kingdom (early to mid-second millennium)” and Asenath also to the Middle Kingdom. (Kitchen, On the Reliability . . . p. 346). This scheme fits into the known time frame for the life of Joseph very nicely.

30) “Pharaoh” vs. “Pharaoh So-and-So”: “Pharaoh” is used by itself many times in Genesis and Exodus. Hoffmeier noted a change in this practice: “In subsequent periods [after 1100 B.C.], the name of the monarch was generally added on. This precise practice is found in the Old Testament . . . after Sheshak (ca. 925 B.C.), the title and name appear together (e.g., Pharaoh Neco, Pharaoh Hophra).” (Hoffmeier, ibid., p. 87)

31) Joseph’s “Investiture” in Egypt:

Genesis 41:41-43 And Pharaoh said to Joseph, “Behold, I have set you over all the land of Egypt.” [42] Then Pharaoh took his signet ring from his hand and put it on Joseph’s hand, and arrayed him in garments of fine linen, and put a gold chain about his neck;

This event is known as Joseph’s investiture. Over forty Egyptian depictions of this sort of investiture ceremony have been discovered, from 1479 to 950 B.C. showing a Pharaoh on a throne, with a prince figure wearing a gold necklace and white linen, and some sort of insignia (seal, staff, ring, etc.) (see Hoffmeier, ibid., pp. 91-92). Hoffmeier noted: “Huy, Viceroy of Cush under Tutankhamun [r. 1333-1323 B.C.] . . . [is shown] receiving a rolled-up linen object along with a gold signet ring.” (ibid., p. 92) Kitchen added: “Of the Egyptian nature of the trappings for royal appointments to high office — linen robe, gold collar, state seal, etc. – there can be no doubt whatever” (Kitchen, On the Reliability . . . p. 478).  It all lines up with the biblical account, in quite striking detail.

32) Egyptian Embalming: Egyptian physicians “embalmed” Jacob (Gen. 50:1-3) and Joseph was “embalmed” and “put in a coffin in Egypt” (Gen. 50:26). Neither practice was known in the land of Canaan during this time or the entire Bronze Age. (see Hoffmeier, ibid., p. 95).

33) Joseph Obtaining High Egyptian Office?: Is it plausible to believe that a Semite or Israelite or Hebrew could have attained such a high office in Egypt as Joseph (and later Moses) did? Isn’t that stretching credulity too far? No; the evidence again corroborates the biblical narrative about Joseph in Egypt. A tomb was discovered in Saqqara (or Sakkara) in the 1980s that included a Semitic man, Aper-el. His titles included
“vizier,” “mayor of the city,” and “judge,” and he served Pharaoh Amenhotep III (r. c. 1387-c. 1350 B.C.) and Pharaoh Akhenaten (r. c. 1350-c. 1335 B.C.) as overseer or Lower Egypt.

34) Sodom Destroyed by a Meteor Blast During Abraham’s Time?: there is hard scientific evidence that this may indeed have been the case. A meteor is thought to have exploded in the air over Sodom and Gomorrah, in c. 1750-1650 BC. Yet more confirmation of biblical accuracy, and the ancient, Mosaic pedigree of the Torah.

35-45) Details of Hebrew Bondage Verified by Archaeology:  in my upcoming book, The Word Set in Stone: How Science, History, and Archaeology Prove Biblical Truth (Catholic Answers Press,  2023). I write about eleven of these:

1) the specific time frame of the city of Ram’eses / Raamses;
2) the specific time frame of the city of Pithom;
3) the name of the city of Pithom;
4) the name of the city of Ram’eses / Raamses;
5) Pithom being made [solely] of [mud] bricks;
6) The function of Pithom as a store-city;
7) The function of Ram’eses as a store-city;
8) Pithom being built (or technically, rebuilt / fortified) at the same time as Ram’eses, during the time of Pharaoh Ramesses II;
9) straw (or chaff) being an important cohesive ingredient in the bricks (bricks without straw were far inferior);
10) A daily quota of brick-making for workers to meet;
11) The extreme difficulty of finding enough straw without the Egyptians providing it for them.

Concerning #5, 9-10:

Egyptians collected top–soil because it had the right composition of clay, silt and sand and formed the hardest and most durable brick. . . . To create bricks capable of bearing the weight of large structures and surviving the elements, straw temper is added. . . .

Two New Kingdom Egyptian sources—a leather scroll from the fifth year of Ramesses II’s reign and Papyrus Anastasi III from the third year of Merneptah’s reign, both from the 13th century—refer to brick making. According to the former, the daily quota was 2,000 mudbricks. . . .

An Egyptian leather scroll in the Louvre, dated to year 5 of the reign of Ramesses II (1275 B.C.E.), relates that 40 stable masters (junior officers) were each responsible for a quota of 2,000 bricks produced by men under them. . . . (Robert J. Littman, Jay Silverstein, and Marta Lorenzon, “With & without straw: How Israelite slaves made bricks,” Biblical Archaeology Review (March 2014); citations from 60-61, 62, and 63)

This daily quota, documented from the time of Pharaoh Ramesses II, is reflected in the biblical texts Exodus 5:8: “number of bricks” and 5:19: “your daily number of bricks.”

46) The Egyptian Plague of Darkness (Ex 10:22-23): This plague has traditionally been associated with desert sandstorms, or khamsins that frequently occur in Egypt in March. These sorts of sandstorms that regularly occur in Egypt between March and May are likely similar to what happened during the famous “Dust Bowl” period in the Great Plains of the United States in the 1930s. One particularly frightening storm took place on what was called on “Black Sunday”: 14 April 1935 in Oklahoma and Texas. A National Weather Service article described it:

[A] mountain of blackness swept across the High Plains and instantly turned a warm, sunny afternoon into a horrible blackness that was darker than the darkest night. . . . a massive wall of blowing dust that resembled a land-based tsunami. Winds in the panhandle reached upwards of 60 MPH, and for at least a brief time, the blackness was so complete that one could not see their own hand in front of their face. (“The Black Sunday Dust Storm of April 14, 1935” [Norman, Oklahoma])

47) The Parting of the Red Sea: Possible Scientific Explanation?: Believe it or not, there is a serious, evidence-based, plausible and possible explanation, published in a peer-reviewed scientific journal.

48) Moses Drawing Water from a Rock?: We know that sandstone and limestone are porous and can contain water. The Bible refers to “flint” in this regard twice (Deut. 8:15; Ps. 114:8). It could be that this was a reference to it being mixed with limestone or chalk, since this is often how it occurs in nature. Sandstone, shale, and limestone are common in the Sinai Peninsula. Porous sandstone is “widespread in the northern Gulf area.” (see: “Sinai Peninsula: An Overview of Geology and Thermal Groundwater Potentialities”: pages 25-38 of the book by Mohamed Ragaie El Tahlawi, Thermal and Mineral Waters (New York: Springer, 2014).

49) Quails in the Desert:  the Bible informs us that (again, positing a natural event), 1) quails migrate through the Sinai Peninsula, 2) particularly along the coastlines (Exod. 16:1) and 3) they do so in the spring (Exod. 16:1; Num. 10:11; 11:31, 34). Science has confirmed all of this. For example, Kitchen states,

Twice on their travels (down to, and up from, Mount Sinai), the Israelites got involved with migrating quail. . . . It is a fact that quails do migrate via Sinai twice a year. They fly from farther south up to Europe in the spring, going through the Suez and Aqaba gulfs in the evenings (hence their presence on the Sinai Peninsula’s west and east flanks then). (On the Reliability . . . p.  273)

50) Being Swallowed Up by the Earth (Num 16:33)?: Kenneth Kitchen notes a well-known phenomenon in the area involved:

There exists there kewirs, or mudflats. Over a deep mass of liquid mud and ooze is formed a hard crust of clayey mud overlying layers of hard salt and half-dry muds, about thirty centimeters thick. . . . increased humidity (especially with rainstorms) causes the crust to soften and break up, turning everything into gluey mud. (Ibid., pp. 191-192)

Another rather obvious natural possibility is an earthquake. In the article, “Seismic behavior of the Dead Sea fault along Araba valley, Jordan,” the authors state,

The Dead Sea fault zone is a major left-lateral strike-slip fault. South of the Dead Sea basin, the Wadi Araba fault extends over 160 km to the Gulf of Aqaba. The Dead Sea fault zone is known to have produced several relatively large historical earthquakes. . . .

We suggest that the Dead Sea fault along the Araba valley should produce an Mw 7 earthquake about every 200 years on average. (Y. Klinger et al, “Seismic behaviour of the Dead Sea fault along Araba valley, Jordan,” Geophysical Journal International Volume 142, Issue 3 (September 2000): 769-782)

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Photo credit: Moses with the Ten Commandments (1648), by Philippe de Champaigne (1602-1674) [public domain / Wikimedia Commons]

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Summary: I provide more than fifty massive and multi-faceted evidences in favor of the notion that Moses wrote the Torah (the first five books of the Bible), vs. atheist “Lex Lata.”

2022-12-10T15:02:52-04:00

Vs. Protestant Apologist Jason Engwer

Jason Engwer, who runs the Tribalblogue site, wrote a post entitled, “The Authority Debate Between Jimmy Akin And The Other Paul” (10-29-22). This is my reply. His words will be in blue.

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Jimmy appealed to the paradigm of scripture, tradition, and magisterium that he claims we see during the time of the apostles. But he acknowledged that Divine revelation started orally during the Old Testament era, without scripture or a magisterium.

Indeed it did. Before there was a Bible, God communicated with Moses the oral law on Mt. Sinai. This is what Judaism believes, and Christians, to varying degrees, do also. See my paper, Biblical Evidence for the Oral Torah & Oral Apostolic Tradition (10-18-11). In it I provide nine biblical arguments for an oral law that was in place in Old Testament times. Jewish oral tradition was accepted by Jesus and the apostles:

1) Matthew 2:23: the reference to “. . . He shall be called a Nazarene ” cannot be found in the Old Testament, yet it was passed down “by the prophets.” Thus, a prophecy, which is considered to be “God’s Word” was passed down orally, rather than through Scripture.

2) Matthew 23:2-3: Jesus teaches that the scribes and Pharisees have a legitimate, binding authority, based on Moses’ seat, which phrase (or idea) cannot be found anywhere in the Old Testament. It is found in the (originally oral) Mishna, where a sort of “teaching succession” from Moses on down is taught. Thus, “apostolic succession,” whereby the Catholic Church, in its priests and bishops and popes, claims to be merely the custodian of an inherited apostolic tradition, is also prefigured by Jewish oral tradition, as approved (at least partially) by Jesus Himself.

See my huge interaction with Baptist anti-Catholic apologist James White on this topic: Refutation of James White: Moses’ Seat, the Bible, and Tradition (Introduction: #1) (+Part II Part III | Part IV | Part V | Part VI) [5-12-05]

3) In 1 Corinthians 10:4, St. Paul refers to a rock which “followed” the Jews through the Sinai wilderness. The Old Testament says nothing about such miraculous movement, in the related passages about Moses striking the rock to produce water (Exodus 17:1-7; Numbers 20:2-13). Rabbinic tradition, however, does.

4) 1 Peter 3:19: St. Peter, in describing Christ’s journey to Sheol / Hades (“he went and preached to the spirits in prison . . . “), draws directly from the Jewish apocalyptic book 1 Enoch (12-16).

5) Jude 9: about a dispute between Michael the archangel and Satan over Moses’ body, cannot be paralleled in the Old Testament, and appears to be a recounting of an oral Jewish tradition.

6) Jude 14-15 directly quotes from 1 Enoch 1:9, even saying that Enoch “prophesied.”

7) 2 Timothy 3:8: Jannes and Jambres cannot be found in the related Old Testament passage (Exodus 7:8 ff.).

Furthermore, the forms those oral revelations took varied a lot, and we have no reason to think that everything God revealed during the Old Testament era was infallibly maintained throughout Old Testament history by some sort of equivalent of the Roman Catholic paradigm. To the contrary, revelation was sometimes lost or disregarded on a significant scale (e.g., 2 Kings 22:8-13Nehemiah 8:13-17).

Since this was before the Church Age, and the much greater gifts that God provided, full infallibility was likely not maintained in an unbroken fashion. God hadn’t promised that, as He did to Peter. But infallibility did exist in some times and in some persons, and many analogies existed, as I shall explore as we proceed. The prophets, for example, received their inspiration by the Holy Spirit (2 Chron. 24:20; Neh. 9:30; Zech. 7:12) and routinely purported to proclaim the very “word of the LORD”: a sort of “revelation on the spot”:

1 Samuel 15:10 (RSV) The word of the LORD came to Samuel:

2 Samuel 23:2 The Spirit of the LORD speaks by me, his word is upon my tongue. [King David]

1 Chronicles 17:3 But that same night the word of the LORD came to Nathan,

Isaiah 38:4 Then the word of the LORD came to Isaiah:

Jeremiah 26:15 . . . the LORD sent me to you to speak all these words in your ears.

Ezekiel 33:1 The word of the LORD came to me: [“word of the LORD” appears 60 times in the Book of Ezekiel]

Haggai 1:13 Then Haggai, the messenger of the LORD, spoke to the people with the LORD’s message, ‘I am with you, says the LORD.’

Priests in the Old Testament were also highly gifted by God:

Malachi 2:6-8 True instruction was in his mouth, and no wrong was found on his lips. He walked with me in peace and uprightness, and he turned many from iniquity. For the lips of a priest should guard knowledge, and men should seek instruction from his mouth, for he is the messenger of the LORD of hosts.

St. Francis de Sales, in his book, The Catholic Controversy, argued that even the old covenant institutional religious system possessed the characteristic of indefectibility (passages: RSV; all comments are his own, except for a few of my bracketed interjections):

2 Chronicles 15:3 For a long time Israel was without the true God, and without a teaching priest, and without law;

Elijah lamented that he was alone in Israel (1 Ki 19:14) [“I, even I only, am left”]. Answer: Elijah was not the only good man in Israel, for there were seven thousand men who had not given themselves up to idolatry [1 Ki 19:18: “I will leave seven thousand in Israel, all the knees that have not bowed to Ba’al”], and what the Prophet says here is only to express better the justice of his complaint. It is not true again that if all Israel had failed, the Church would have thereby ceased to exist, for Israel was not the whole Church. Indeed it was already separated therefrom by the schism of Jeroboam; and the kingdom of Judah was the better and principal part; and it is Israel, not Judah, of which Azarias predicted that it should be without priest and sacrifice. (p. 61)

Isaiah 1:4-6 Ah, sinful nation, a people laden with iniquity, offspring of evildoers, sons who deal corruptly! They have forsaken the LORD, they have despised the Holy One of Israel, they are utterly estranged. [5] Why will you still be smitten, that you continue to rebel? The whole head is sick, and the whole heart faint. [6] From the sole of the foot even to the head, there is no soundness in it, . . .

. . . these are forms of speaking, and of vehemently detesting the vice of a people. And although the Prophets, pastors and preachers use these general modes of expression, we are not to understand them of each particular person, but only of a large proportion; as appears by the example of Elijah who complained that he was alone, notwithstanding that there were yet seven thousand faithful. [1 Ki 19:14, 18] S. Paul complains to the Philippians (2:21) that all seek their own interest and advantage; still at the end of the Epistle he acknowledges that there were many good people with him and with them. [4:10, 14-18] (p. 61)

And to the extent that Jimmy had fallible oral communication in mind during the Old Testament era, a Protestant paradigm allows for that in the New Testament era as well.

Protestant authority is nothing if not fallible. And that is contrary to New Testament teaching: which constantly expresses the notion that God wants the Christian believer to have certainty of belief; not the relativism and denominational chaos that Protestantism invariably logically reduces to, and as it exists in practice.

There wasn’t a paradigm of scripture, tradition, and magisterium comparable to Roman Catholicism during at least most of the Biblical era.

I strongly disagree. There were strong analogies. The Jews had a very strong paradigm of authoritative interpretation: far closer to the Catholic rule of faith than to the Protestant late-arriving rule of faith (sola Scriptura). Protestants have, of course, teachers, commentators, and interpreters of the Bible (and excellent ones at that – often surpassing Catholics in many respects). They are, however, in the final analysis optional and non-binding when it comes down to the individual and his choice of what he chooses to believe. This is the Protestant notion of private judgment and the nearly absolute primacy of individual conscience (Luther’s “plowboy”). Luther’s own revolt against Catholic authority and (partially) against Catholic tradition presupposes this freedom of the individual Christian.

In Catholicism, on the other hand, there is a parameter where doctrinal speculation must end: the magisterium, dogmas, papal and conciliar pronouncements, catechisms — in a word (well, two words): Catholic tradition. Some things are considered to be settled issues. Others are still undergoing development. All binding dogmas are believed to be derived from Jesus and the apostles. Now, who did the Jews resemble more closely in this regard? Did they need authoritative interpretation of their Torah, and eventually, the Old Testament as a whole? The Old Testament itself has much to “tell” us:

1) Exodus 18:20: Moses (with his brother Aaron: Lev 10:11) was to teach the Jews the “statutes and the decisions” — not just read it to them. Since he was the Lawgiver and author of the Torah, it stands to reason that his interpretation and teaching would be of a highly authoritative nature.

2) Deuteronomy 17:8-13: The Levitical priests had binding authority in legal matters (derived from the Torah itself). They interpreted the biblical injunctions (17:11). The penalty for disobedience was death (17:12), since the offender didn’t obey “the priest who stands to minister there before the LORD your God.” Cf. Deuteronomy 19:16-17; 2 Chronicles 19:8-10.

3) Deuteronomy 33:10: Levite priests are to teach Israel the ordinances and law. (cf. 2 Chronicles 15:3; Malachi 2:6-8 — the latter calls them “messenger of the LORD of hosts”).

4) Ezra 7:6, 10: Ezra, a priest and scribe, studied the Jewish law and taught it to Israel, and his authority was binding, under pain of imprisonment, banishment, loss of goods, and even death (7:25-26).

5) Nehemiah 8:1-8: Ezra reads the law of Moses to the people in Jerusalem (8:3). In 8:7 we find thirteen Levites who assisted Ezra, and “who helped the people to understand the law.” Much earlier, in King Jehoshaphat’s reign, we find Levites exercising the same function (2 Chronicles 17:8-9). There is no sola Scriptura, with its associated idea “perspicuity” (evident clearness in the main) here. In Nehemiah 8:8: “. . . they read from the book, from the law of God, clearly [footnote, “or with interpretation”], and they gave the sense, so that the people understood the reading.” So the people did indeed understand the law (8:12), but not without much assistance — not merely upon hearing.

The Old Testament and Jewish history attest to a fact which Catholics constantly assert, over against sola Scriptura and Protestantism: that Holy Scripture requires an authoritative interpreter, a Church, and a binding tradition, as passed down from Jesus and the apostles.

Many people do not realize that Christianity mostly developed from the Pharisaical tradition of Judaism. It was really the only viable option in the Judaism of that era. Since Jesus often excoriated the Pharisees for hypocrisy and excessive legalism, some assume that He was condemning the whole ball of wax. But this is throwing the baby out with the bath water. Likewise, the Apostle Paul, when referring to his pharisaical background doesn’t condemn Pharisaism per se.

The Sadducees, on the other hand, were much more “heretical.” They rejected the future resurrection and the soul, the afterlife, rewards and retribution, demons and angels, and predestinarianism. Christian Pharisees are referred to in Acts 15:5 and Philippians 3:5, but never Christian Sadducees. The Sadducees’ following was found mainly in the upper classes, and was almost non-existent among the common people.

The Sadducees also rejected all “oral Torah,” — the traditional interpretation of the written that was of central importance in rabbinic Judaism. So we can summarize as follows:

1) The Sadducees were obviously the elitist “liberals” and “heterodox” amongst the Jews of their time.

2) But the Sadducees were also the sola Scripturists of their time.

3) Christianity adopted wholesale the very “postbiblical” doctrines which the Sadducees rejected and which the Pharisees accepted: resurrection, belief in angels and spirits, the soul, the afterlife, eternal reward or damnation, and the belief in angels and demons.

4) But these doctrines were notable for their marked development after the biblical Old Testament canon was complete, especially in Jewish apocalyptic literature, part of Jewish codified oral tradition.

5) We’ve seen how — if a choice is to be made — both Jesus and Paul were squarely in the “Pharisaical camp,” over against the Sadducees. We also saw above how Jesus and the New Testament writers cite approvingly many tenets of Jewish oral (later talmudic and rabbinic) tradition, according to the Pharisaic outlook.

Ergo) The above facts constitute one more “nail in the coffin” of the theory that either the Old Testament Jews or the early Church were guided by the principle of sola Scriptura. The only party that believed thusly were the Sadducees, who were heterodox according to traditional Judaism, despised by the common people, and restricted to the privileged classes only. The Pharisees (despite their corruptions and excesses) were the mainstream, and the early Church adopted their outlook with regard to eschatology, anthropology, and angelology, and the necessity and benefit of binding oral tradition and ongoing ecclesiastical authority for the purpose (especially) of interpreting Holy Scripture.

Therefore, based on the many reasons just presented, Jason’s claim:There wasn’t a paradigm of scripture, tradition, and magisterium comparable to Roman Catholicism during at least most of the Biblical era” is false.

Even during the time of the apostles, was there an infallible magisterium in any relevant way? Jimmy’s appeal to the inclusion of the elders in Acts 15:23 is insufficient. 

I’ve addressed the question of the magisterial authority of the Jerusalem Council many times. It’s one of my favorite topics. What we know about it proves in several ways, I believe, that a self-perceived infallible authority (in this instance, conciliar in nature) existed in the early Church:

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Apostolic Succession as Seen in the Jerusalem Council [National Catholic Register, 1-15-17]
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Were the Jerusalem Council Decrees Universally Binding? [National Catholic Register, 12-4-19]
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First Clement is written in the name of the church of Rome. It doesn’t follow that everybody in the Roman church at the time, both leaders and laymen, had equal authority.
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I agree! Clement was a pope. He wrote the letter (dated c. 96 AD). And in it he stated:

If, however, any shall disobey the words spoken by Him through us, let them know that they will involve themselves in transgression and serious danger … (59)

Joy and gladness will you afford us, if you become obedient to the words written by us and through the Holy Spirit root out the lawless wrath of your jealousy according to the intercession which we have made for peace and unity in this letter. (63)

Jason loves to ask provocative questions. I have a few of my own for him (but alas, he has refused to reply to me for some ten years now; he used to, quite a bit):

Catholics would respectfully ask Protestants or Orthodox: Why is it that Clement is speaking with authority from Rome, settling the disputes of other regions? Why don’t the Corinthians solve it themselves, if they have a proclaimed bishop or even if they didn’t claim one at the time? Why do they appeal to the bishop of Rome? These are questions that I think need to be seriously considered.

Clement definitely asserts his authority over the Corinthian church far away. Again, the question is: Why? What sense does that make in a Protestant-type ecclesiology where every region is autonomous and there is supposedly no hierarchical authority in the Christian Church? Why must they “obey” the bishop from another region? Not only does Clement assert strong authority — he also claims that Jesus and the Holy Spirit are speaking “through” him.

That is extraordinary, and very similar to what we see in the Jerusalem Council in Acts 15:28 (“For it has seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things”) and in Scripture itself. It’s not strictly inspiration but it is sure something akin to infallibility (divine protection from error and the pope as a unique representative of God).

Why do the Christians atCorinth have to obey Romein the first place? Who determined that set-up? Why does it evencross their minds to write to a local church far away to settle their problems, and why does Clement assume that they should obey him, and that it would be “transgression and serious danger” if they don’t?

Similarly, Acts 15:23 could cite the elders who were present without their having the attributes Jimmy assigns to them. We know from other evidence, such as what’s discussed here, that the apostles had more authority than non-apostolic elders. The Jerusalem elders mentioned in Acts 15:23 were respected leaders who were worth citing (after the apostles) in that context, but it doesn’t follow that they had the role Jimmy assigns to them. Verse 22, like First Clement, even refers to “the whole church”, but we don’t conclude that the laymen, deacons, etc. involved were acting as an infallible magisterium.

Of course, overall, apostles had more authority than elders as a general matter, yet in this council, they acted in concert. This has tremendous implications, as I have written about in one of my articles on that council:

The Jerusalem council presents “apostles” and “elders” in conjunction six times [Acts 15:2, 4, 6, 22-23; 16:4]. What is striking is that the two offices in the Jerusalem council are presented as if there is little or no distinction between them, at least in terms of their practical authority. It’s not an airtight argument, I concede. We could, for example, say that “bishops and the pope gathered together at the Second Vatican Council.” We know that the pope had a higher authority. It may be that apostles here had greater authority.

But we don’t know that with certainty, from Bible passages that mention them. They seem to be presented as having in effect, “one man one vote.” They “consider” the issue “together” (15:6). It’s the same for the “decisions which had been reached” (16:4).

Therefore, if such a momentous, binding decision was arrived at by apostles and elders, it sure seems to suggest what Catholics believe: that bishops are successors of the apostles. We already see the two offices working together in Jerusalem and making a joint decision. It’s a concrete example of precisely what the Catholic Church claims about apostolic succession and the sublime authority conveyed therein. There are three additional sub-arguments that I submit for consideration:

1) The council, by joint authority of apostles and elders, sent off Judas and Silas as its messengers, even though they “were themselves prophets” (15:32).  Prophets were the highest authorities in the old covenant (with direct messages from God), and here mere “elders” are commissioning them.

2) St. Paul himself is duty-bound to the council’s decree (16:4), which was decided in part by mere elders. So this implies apostolic succession (and conciliarism), if elders can participate in such high authority that even apostles must obey it.

3) Paul previously “had no small dissension and debate” with the  circumcision party (15:1-2), but was unable to resolve the conflict by his own profound apostolic authority. Instead, he had to go to the council, where apostles and elders decided the question. All he is reported as doing there is reporting about “signs and wonders” in his ministry (15:12). He’s not the leader or even a key figure. This is not what the Protestant “Paulinist” view would have predicted.

Appeals to other passages, like 1 Timothy 3:15, are likewise insufficient for reasons Protestants have discussed many times.

I’m sure they have, but they (including Jason himself) haven’t interacted with my particular argument from that passage (see especially the first article):

1 Timothy 3:15 = Church Infallibility (vs. Steve Hays) [5-14-20]
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[S]omebody like Irenaeus could have good reason to reject sola scriptura (e.g., reliable information about extrabiblical apostolic teaching from Polycarp), but it wouldn’t follow that Irenaeus’ position is equivalent to Roman Catholicism’s (it’s not) . . . 
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St. Irenaeus’ position sure was a lot closer to the present — and historic — Catholic position than any sort of Protestantism, as I massively documented way back in 2003, in a big debate with Jason himself on the CARM discussion board (one which he departed long before he should have):
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See also:
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Chrysostom & Irenaeus: Sola Scripturists? (vs. David T. King) [4-20-07]
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When Paul and Peter are anticipating their death in 2 Timothy and 2 Peter, for example, they presumably don’t know whether every other apostle will also be dead soon. So, how Paul and Peter prepare their audiences for their (Paul and Peter’s) death isn’t equivalent to preparing them for the post-apostolic age. But it does have some relevance. For one thing, Peter was a Pope under a Roman Catholic scenario, so any apostle who was still alive after Peter’s death would have a lesser authority than Peter and his successors. And even though Paul and Peter knew that one or more of the other apostles could outlive them, their own deaths would have underscored the potential for the other apostles to die and the need for preparing for that scenario. Yet, they show no awareness of anything like a papacy or infallible magisterium. The pattern in these passages of referring to sources like past apostolic teaching and scripture without referring to anything like a papacy or infallible magisterium makes more sense under a Protestant paradigm.
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I have many arguments about this: most over against Jason himself:
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In addition to the three portions of the New Testament I discuss there (Acts 20, 2 Timothy, 2 Peter), think of the writings of John. He probably wrote in his elderly years, and, like Paul and Peter, he keeps calling on his audience to remember things like apostolic teaching and scripture, but shows no awareness of anything like a papacy or infallible magisterium.
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There is a lot of indication of it, as I have been showing, but it developed slowly. What we do know is right in line with what we would expect to see in these early years (from the perspective of development of doctrine). St. John Henry Cardinal Newman wrote about this:
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From: Essay on the Development of Christian Doctrine, 1878 edition, University of Notre Dame Press, 1989, pp. 148-155; Part 1, Chapter 4, Section 3:
Let us see how, on the principles which I have been laying down and defending, the evidence lies for the Pope’s supremacy.
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As to this doctrine the question is this, whether there was not from the first a certain element at work, or in existence, divinely sanctioned, which, for certain reasons, did not at once show itself upon the surface of ecclesiastical affairs, and of which events in the fourth century are the development; and whether the evidence of its existence and operation, which does occur in the earlier centuries, be it much or little, is not just such as ought to occur upon such an hypothesis.
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. . . While Apostles were on earth, there was the display neither of Bishop nor Pope; their power had no prominence, as being exercised by Apostles. In course of time, first the power of the Bishop displayed itself, and then the power of the Pope . . .
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. . . St. Peter’s prerogative would remain a mere letter, till the complication of ecclesiastical matters became the cause of ascertaining it. While Christians were “of one heart and soul,” it would be suspended; love dispenses with laws . . .
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When the Church, then, was thrown upon her own resources, first local disturbances gave exercise to Bishops, and next ecumenical disturbances gave exercise to Popes; and whether communion with the Pope was necessary for Catholicity would not and could not be debated till a suspension of that communion had actually occurred. It is not a greater difficulty that St. Ignatius does not write to the Asian Greeks about Popes, than that St. Paul does not write to the Corinthians about Bishops. And it is a less difficulty that the Papal supremacy was not formally acknowledged in the second century, than that there was no formal acknowledgment on the part of the Church of the doctrine of the Holy Trinity till the fourth. No doctrine is defined till it is violated . . .
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Moreover, an international bond and a common authority could not be consolidated, were it ever so certainly provided, while persecutions lasted. If the Imperial Power checked the development of Councils, it availed also for keeping back the power of the Papacy. The Creed, the Canon, in like manner, both remained undefined. The Creed, the Canon, the Papacy, Ecumenical Councils, all began to form, as soon as the Empire relaxed its tyrannous oppression of the Church. And as it was natural that her monarchical power should display itself when the Empire became Christian, so was it natural also that further developments of that power should take place when that Empire fell. Moreover, when the power of the Holy See began to exert itself, disturbance and collision would be the necessary consequence . . . as St. Paul had to plead, nay, to strive for his apostolic authority, and enjoined St. Timothy, as Bishop of Ephesus, to let no man despise him: so Popes too have not therefore been ambitious because they did not establish their authority without a struggle. It was natural that Polycrates should oppose St. Victor; and natural too that St. Cyprian should both extol the See of St. Peter, yet resist it when he thought it went beyond its province . . .
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On the whole, supposing the power to be divinely bestowed, yet in the first instance more or less dormant, a history could not be traced out more probable, more suitable to that hypothesis, than the actual course of the controversy which took place age after age upon the Papal supremacy.
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It will be said that all this is a theory. Certainly it is: it is a theory to account for facts as they lie in the history, to account for so much being told us about the Papal authority in early times, and not more; a theory to reconcile what is and what is not recorded about it; and, which is the principal point, a theory to connect the words and acts of the Ante-nicene Church with that antecedent probability of a monarchical principle in the Divine Scheme, and that actual exemplification of it in the fourth century, which forms their presumptive interpretation. All depends on the strength of that presumption. Supposing there be otherwise good reason for saying that the Papal Supremacy is part of Christianity, there is nothing in the early history of the Church to contradict it . . .
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Moreover, all this must be viewed in the light of the general probability, so much insisted on above, that doctrine cannot but develop as time proceeds and need arises, and that its developments are parts of the Divine system, and that therefore it is lawful, or rather necessary, to interpret the words and deeds of the earlier Church by the determinate teaching of the later.
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Photo credit: St. Peter as Pope (1610-1612), by Peter Paul Rubens (1577-1640) [public domain / Wikimedia Commons]

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Summary: I address Jason Engwer’s all-out assault on many levels against early Catholic authority and ecclesiology, utilizing a great many scriptural and historical arguments.

2023-02-21T15:55:06-04:00

Was Mary Full of Grace and Therefore Sinless? And If So, Was This Necessary or Only “Fitting”?

Lucas Banzoli is a very active Brazilian anti-Catholic polemicist, who holds to basically a Seventh-Day Adventist theology, whereby there is no such thing as a soul that consciously exists outside of a body, and no hell (soul sleep and annihilationism). This leads him to a Christology which is deficient and heterodox in terms of Christ’s human nature after His death. He has a Master’s degree in theology, a degree and postgraduate work in history, a license in letters, and is a history teacher, author of 25 books, as well as blogmaster (but now inactive) for six blogs. He’s active on YouTube.

This is my 21st refutation of articles written by Lucas Banzoli. As of yet, I haven’t received a single word in reply to any of them (or if Banzoli has replied to anything, anywhere, he certainly hasn’t informed me of it). Readers may decide for themselves why that is the case. His words will be in blue. I use RSV for the Bible passages unless otherwise indicated.

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I’m replying to Lucas’ article, “Maria pecou?” [Did Mary sin? ] (2-5-15).

Yes, [Mary] sinned. If all have sinned (Rom.3:23; 5:12), Mary has sinned. Case closed.

It’s not case closed at all. I dealt with this in my article, “All Have Sinned” vs. a Sinless, Immaculate Mary? [1996; revised and posted at National Catholic Register on 12-11-17]. I addressed the issue that “all” in Scripture often does not mean “absolutely every, without exception.” Mary’s sinlessness is not a logical impossibility, or absolutely ruled out based on the meaning of pas [“all”] alone.

To give three quick examples of what I am talking about: Paul writes that “all Israel will be saved,” (Rom 11:26), but we know that many will not be saved. And in Romans 15:14, Paul describes members of the Roman church as “filled with all knowledge”, which clearly cannot be taken literally. 1 Corinthians 15:22 states: “For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.” As far as physical death is concerned (the context of 1 Cor 15), not “all” people have died (e.g., Enoch: Gen 5:24; cf. Heb 11:5; Elijah: 2 Kings 2:11). Likewise, “all” will not be made spiritually alive by Christ, as some will choose to suffer eternal spiritual death in hell.

But I think an even more effective explanation is the following:

Mary was included in the “all” in the sense that she certainly would have been subject to original sin [and almost certainly would have actually sinned] like all the rest of us but for God’s special preventive act of grace – a “preemptive strike,” so to speak. This is why she can rightly say that God was her Savior too (Lk 1:47). . . .

[This] allows one to take “all” here in its most straightforward, common sense meaning, but with the proviso that Mary was spared from inevitable sin by means of a direct, extraordinary intervention of God, . . .

1. Mary never sinned, because her womb gave birth to an immaculate person.

And? If Mary is immaculate, then Mary’s mother’s womb also produced an immaculate person, but Catholic apologists do not claim that Mary’s mother is immaculate either. If this “logic” were minimally followed, it would lead us to Eve:

• Every immaculate being can only be generated by another immaculate being.

• Mary is immaculate for generating a sinless being.

• Mary, as a sinless being, could only then be generated by another sinless being.

• Mary’s mother, therefore, was also immaculate.

• But if Mary’s mother was immaculate and only sinless people can beget immaculate beings, then Mary’s mother’s mother was immaculate too.

• But if Mary’s mother’s mother was immaculate, then…

We already know what this will lead to, in papist “logic.” Do not try to reason with papists too much; otherwise the heads of these “apologists” will explode. This is the sort of reasoning we see from someone who lets the pope reason for them.

This is ludicrous: as is Lucas’ entire article; clueless, out to sea. And it is all these things because this is not how the Catholic Church understands or defends the Immaculate Conception of Mary in the first place. Hence my title. It’s a straw man. Lucas can go out and find Catholic apologists (real and credentialed or so-called / self-proclaimed) who make arguments like this, but so what? What does that prove? It only establishes that:

1) these particular people don’t know what they are talking about,

and

2) they aren’t familiar with how the Church explains this doctrine.

In other words, they’re as ignorant as Lucas is about Catholic Mariology. Consequently, all Lucas “proves” by silly pseudo-“arguments” like this is that there are misinformed or downright ignorant Catholics out there who unwillingly misrepresent Holy Mother Church and Catholic Mariology alike. One can always find such people in any religious group. And this is why one must always document from official ecclesiastical sources.

It’s easy enough to do so. Catholicism teaches that Mary’s Immaculate Conception was not necessary in order for her to bear the incarnate God in the virgin birth. She wasn’t required to be without sin in order to be Jesus’ mother. Rather, the Church teaches that it was appropriate or “fitting” for this to be the case. Mary herself became immaculate, not because of her mother or any other ancestor, but because God chose to perform a special miracle of grace in her case, at the moment of her conception.

It had nothing to do — strictly speaking — with anyone else. Mary herself couldn’t even participate in it since it was at the instant of her conception. Here are actual official, relevant Catholic documents concerning this, rather than “apologetic old wives’ tales”:

Blessed Pope Pius IX, in his 1854 declaration on the Immaculate Conception (Ineffabilis Deus) wrote:

For it was certainly not fitting that this vessel of election should be wounded by the common injuries, since she, differing so much from the others, had only nature in common with them, not sin. In fact, it was quite fitting that, as the Only-Begotten has a Father in heaven, whom the Seraphim extol as thrice holy, so he should have a Mother on earth who would never be without the splendor of holiness.

The Catechism teaches the same:

#722 The Holy Spirit prepared Mary by his grace. It was fitting that the mother of him in whom “the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily” should herself be “full of grace.” She was, by sheer grace, conceived without sin as the most humble of creatures, the most capable of welcoming the inexpressible gift of the Almighty. . . .”

This thinking goes back at least as far as St. Anselm (1034-1109). In his treatise On the Virginal Conception, he  expounded the principle on which the doctrine rests in the following words: “It was fitting that the conception of that man (Christ) should be accomplished from a most pure mother. For it was fitting that that Virgin should be resplendent with such a purity, . . .”

2. Mary never sinned, because blessed was the fruit of her womb.

[. . .]

• The law of Deuteronomy 28 says of those who fulfill it that blessed would be the fruit of her womb.

• Mary was told that “blessed is the fruit of her womb”.

• Therefore, Mary never sinned.

This is as silly and insubstantial as Lucas’ first “argument.” Being “blessed” has no intrinsic relationship with a supposed or possible sinlessness. So it’s simply one huge non sequitur (utterly irrelevant consideration), and as such, deserves no further attention. As his source for this ridiculous argument, Lucas cites a comedian (!). This is supposed to be impressive or compelling? I guess that’s highly “fitting”: since his entire article is a joke and a farce.

3. Mary never sinned because she is the perfect tabernacle.

Believe it or not, there are Catholics going around propagating the idea that Mary is the perfect tabernacle of Hebrews 9:11, which says: “But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things that have come, then through the greater and more perfect tent (not made with hands, that is, not of this creation)” (RSV)

This is yet another variant of #1 and #2. I’ve never heard of this wacko argument in 32 years of [real] Catholic apologetics. What informed Catholics argue is that Mary is the “ark of the new covenant”: based on several fascinating scriptural analogies. But even so, it would not be stated that this requires her to be immaculate; only that it was “fitting” for her to be.

4. Mary never sinned, because she is the ark of the covenant.

huh? What? repeat? Is Maria the ark? Really? Really?

I shouldn’t even waste time on this one, which is the most fun of all. Basically, the argument is that the ark of the covenant was a foreshadowing of Mary, because the ark was a symbol of God’s presence, and Mary was the one who begot Jesus.

I agree that he shouldn’t waste time battling straw men. He makes a fool and an ass of himself. But since he has now brought up at least an actual historic Catholic apologetic argument (congratulations!), why don’t we briefly take a look at the real analogical argument, as opposed to Lucas’ caricature of it, along with the obligatory mocking of the straw man. Here are the actual biblical passages where this notion was drawn from:

Luke 1:35 And the angel said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born will be called holy, the Son of God.”

The Greek word for overshadow is episkiasei, which describes a bright, glorious cloud. It is used with reference to the cloud of transfiguration of Jesus (Mt 17:5; Mk 9:7; Lk 9:34) and also has a connection to the shekinah glory of God in the Old Testament (Ex 24:15-16; 40:34-38; 1 Ki 8:10). Mary is, therefore, in effect, the new temple and holy of holies, where God was present in a special fashion. In fact, Scripture draws many parallels between Mary, the “ark of the new covenant” and the ark of the (old) covenant:

Exodus 40:34-35 Then the cloud covered the tent of meeting, and the glory of the LORD filled the tabernacle. And Moses was not able to enter the tent of meeting, because the cloud abode upon it, and the glory of the LORD filled the tabernacle. (cf. 1 Ki 8:6-11)

The Greek Septuagint translation uses the same word, episkiasei, in this passage. There are at least four more direct parallels as well:

2 Samuel 6:9 And David was afraid of the LORD that day; and he said, “How can the ark of the LORD come to me?”

Luke 1:43 And why is this granted me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?

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2 Samuel 6:15 So David and all the house of Israel brought up the ark of the LORD with shouting, and with the sound of the horn.

Luke 1:42 and she exclaimed with a loud cry, “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb!”

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2 Samuel 6:14, 16 And David danced before the LORD with all his might; and David was girded with a linen ephod. . . . King David leaping and dancing before the LORD . . .

1 Chronicles 15:29 And as the ark of the covenant of the LORD came to the city of David, Michal the daughter of Saul looked out of the window, and saw King David dancing and making merry . . .

Luke 1:44 For behold, when the voice of your greeting came to my ears, the babe in my womb leaped for joy.

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2 Samuel 6:10-11 So David was not willing to take the ark of the LORD into the city of David; but David took it aside to the house of O’bed-e’dom the Gittite. And the ark of the LORD remained in the house of O’bed-e’dom the Gittite three months . . .

Luke 1:39, 56 In those days Mary arose and went with haste into the hill country, to a city of Judah, . . . And Mary remained with her about three months, and returned to her home.

Further reflection on “holy places” and “holy items” brings out the meaning of the striking parallel symbolism. The Temple and Tabernacle were holy, and this was especially the case with the holy of holies, where the ark was kept. God was said to dwell above the ark, between the two cherubim (Ex 25:22). The presence of God always imparted holiness (Duet 7:6; 26:19; Jer 2:3). The furnishings of the Tabernacle could not be touched by anyone, save a few priests, on pain of death (Num 1:51-53; 2:17; 4:15).

This was true of the holiest things, associated with God and worship of God. The high priest only entered the holy of holies once a year, on the Day of Atonement (Num 29:8). The Jews would tie a rope to his leg in case he perished from improper behavior (Lev 16:2, 13), so they could pull him out. This was true of the ark itself. Uzziah merely reached out to steady it when it was toppling over, and was struck dead (2 Samuel 6:2-7). Others died when they simply looked inside of it (1 Sam 6:19; cf. Ex 33:20).

This is how God regards people and even inanimate objects that are in close proximity to Him. Thus, it was altogether fitting that Mary, as the ark of the new covenant, Theotokos (“bearer of God”): the one who had the sublime honor of carrying God incarnate in her womb, would be exceptionally holy.

. . . it should be noted that nothing in the Bible indicates that the ark typifies anything or anyone . . . with Elijah-John there is still a biblical confirmation of the typology, while with the “ark-Mary” there is absolutely nothing.

Right. I provided four striking analogies above, that puts the lie to this claim.

And even if the ark did typify Mary because the ark carried the presence of God and Mary begat Jesus, we could do the exact same thing and spiritualize the biblical texts to the point where we are all “arks”, because Paul told us that, spiritually, Christ is formed within all Christians, not just in Mary: “My little children, with whom I am again in travail until Christ be formed in you!” (Galatians 4:19)

Indeed, God says that we are “God’s temple” because the Holy Spirit, and the Father and the Son as well, live within us. Lucas finally stumbles upon some truth, but (sorry!) it only helps the Catholic Mariological case:

1 Corinthians 3:16-17 Do you not know that you are God’s temple and that God’s Spirit dwells in you? [17] If any one destroys God’s temple, God will destroy him. For God’s temple is holy, and that temple you are.

1 Corinthians 6:17-20 But he who is united to the Lord becomes one spirit with him. [18] Shun immorality. Every other sin which a man commits is outside the body; but the immoral man sins against his own body. [19] Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, which you have from God? You are not your own; [20] you were bought with a price. So glorify God in your body.

2 Corinthians 6:15-17 What accord has Christ with Be’lial? Or what has a believer in common with an unbeliever? [16] What agreement has the temple of God with idols? For we are the temple of the living God; as God said, “I will live in them and move among them, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. [17] Therefore come out from them, and be separate from them, says the Lord, and touch nothing unclean;
then I will welcome you,

See how holiness and proximity to God go hand-in-hand? This is precisely the Catholic point about Mary bearing God the Son; the incarnate God. Perfect holiness is plainly highly appropriate; though not absolutely necessary, as explained. St. Paul nails down that point in his analyses of the indwelling Holy Spirit in all Christian believers, in noting that this should cause us to “shun immorality” and “glorify God in your body” and be “one spirit with him” and “come out from them, and be separate from them”: all because we are temples of the Holy Spirit.

And how is this at all inconsistent with — let alone a disproof of — the notion that it was fitting for Mary to be without sin because she bore God the Son in her body for nine months? It was because God knew that Mary would almost certainly fall into sin like all of us, but for His special act of grace at her conception, that He did that, so that she would be a perfectly holy vessel for the incarnate God: as is utterly appropriate and fitting. It’s absolutely pure “monergistic” grace. Mary knew and did absolutely nothing to receive it, because it was simultaneous with the supernatural creation of her soul and the natural, biological beginning of existence of her body. It was all God, and all grace.

Nor is it at all implausible, “unbiblical” or inconceivable. After all, it merely made Mary like Eve: without sin, and before having committed original sin. This is why the fathers and Catholics call Mary the “new Eve” or “second Eve.” The first one said “no” to God. Mary said “yes.” A sinless person or creature is not impossible. They exist on the earth today, as I write. Adam and Eve were, the unfallen angels have always been sinless, children under the age of reason (in a sense) are, as well as some who are severely mentally disabled, and indeed all of us who are granted final salvation and eternal life will be sinless in heaven.

This is the problem with interpreting the Bible in overly typological terms: we can put anything in it. Even the insanity that Mary was an ark, or that we all are.

It’s not “insanity” at all. It’s an explicit biblical analogy, expressed in several ways. Lucas thinks that is insane. Catholics take all of the Bible very seriously, rather than picking and choosing only what we personally prefer, based on an existing predisposition even before we get to Holy Scripture. And we are all “arks” in an even greater sense: being temples of God the Holy Spirit and all three Persons of the Trinity (many other passages indicate). This is all based on abundant scriptural proof.

5- Mary never sinned, because the Bible does not say that Mary sinned

Wow! What a fantastic argument! So let’s see how many people have never sinned either: [he names twenty]

It’s true that the Bible never shows Mary sinning (though various failed arguments to that end have been attempted; I have a whole section about that on my Blessed Virgin Mary web page). Absence of positive evidence would be the notoriously weak “argument from silence” (I agree). But belief in Mary’s sinlessness is based on much more than we have for these other twenty people. I have made several “Bible-Only” arguments for the sinlessness of Mary. The key is her being “full of grace” (Luke 1:28). Rightly understood, that is a positive proof that she was without sin:

Luke 1:28 (“Full of Grace”) & Immaculate Conception [2004]

The Bible: Mary Was Without Sin [4-1-09]

Mary’s Immaculate Conception: A Biblical Argument [2010]

Annunciation: Was Mary Already Sublimely Graced? [10-8-11]

Biblical Support for Mary’s Immaculate Conception [National Catholic Register, 10-29-18]

A “Biblical” Immaculate Conception? (vs. James White) [8-27-21]

As we see, Lucas gets to one of the actual Catholic arguments (Luke 1:28) next (congratulations again, for actually avoiding irrelevant and absurd straw man battles!):

6-Mary never sinned, because she was full of grace.

So Stephen also never sinned: “And Stephen, full of grace and power, did great wonders and signs among the people.” (Acts 6:8)

In that verse, the phrase is plērēs charitos [πλήρης χάριτος], not kecharitōmenē [κεχαριτωμένη], as in Luke 1:28. If the Greek terminology is different, then the argument loses most or all of its relevance and force. The perfect stem of a Greek verb [as with kecharitōmenē], denotes, according to Friedrich Blass and Albert DeBrunner, “continuance of a completed action” (Greek Grammar of the New Testament [Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1961], 66). Mary, therefore, continues afterward to be full of the grace she possessed at the time of the Annunciation.

Nor the Corinthians: “And God is able to provide you with every blessing in abundance, so that you may always have enough of everything and may provide in abundance for every good work.” (2 Corinthians 9:8)

This gets back to the generalized and non-literal meaning of “all”: as discussed above. Lucas’ translation, rendered into English, is: “And God is able to make all grace abound to you, so that, always having all sufficiency in all things, you may abound to every good work”. But here the phrase is pasan charin [πᾶσαν χάριν], so it’s not the same as Luke 1:28, which is unique.

Nor the Ephesians: “to the praise of his glorious grace which he freely bestowed on us in the Beloved.” (Eph.1:6)

Lucas’ translation (transferred to English) reads in part: “he has filled us with grace”. In looking at about 35 English translations of Ephesians 1:6, I never see the word “filled” in any of them. In any event, it’s again a different Greek construction. According to Marvin Vincent, a well-known Protestant linguist and expert on biblical Greek, the meaning is:

. . . not “endued us with grace,” nor “made us worthy of love,” but, as “grace – which he freely bestowed.” (Word Studies in the New Testament, III, 365)

Vincent indicates different meanings for the word grace in Luke 1:28 and Ephesians 1:6. A.T. Robertson also defines the word in the same fashion, as “he freely bestowed” (Word Pictures in the New Testament, IV, 518). Here the phrase is charitos autou hēs echaritōsen [χάριτος αὐτοῦ ἧς ἐχαρίτωσεν].

As for the grace bestowed here on all believers being parallel to the fullness of grace bestowed upon the Blessed Virgin Mary, this simply cannot logically be the case, once proper exegesis is undertaken. Apart from the different meanings of the specific word used, as shown, grace is possessed in different measure by different believers, as seen elsewhere in Scripture:

2 Peter 3:18 But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be the glory both now and to the day of eternity. Amen.

Ephesians 4:7 But grace was given to each of us according to the measure of Christ’s gift. (cf. Acts 4:33, Rom 5:20, 6:1, James 4:6, 1 Pet 5:5, 2 Peter 1:2)

The “freely bestowed” grace of Ephesians 1:6, then, cannot possibly be considered the equivalent of that “fullness of grace” applied to Mary in Luke 1:28 because it refers to a huge group of people, with different gifts and various levels of grace bestowed, as the verses just cited show. Grace is given in different measure to believers. The mass of Christian believers as a whole possess neither the same degree of grace nor of sanctity, and everyone knows this, from experience and revelation alike.

Nor the apostles: “And with great power the apostles gave their testimony to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus, and great grace was upon them all.” (Acts 4:33)

“Great” or “abundant” grace is obviously not the same as “full of grace.” Accordingly, different Greek words are again used, as in all these supposed “disproofs” of the Catholic argument from Luke 1:28: charis te megalē [χάρις τε μεγάλη]. So why does Lucas even bring this up? It’s dumb: as if he wants to maintain that a “glass that is three-quarters full” is the same as a glass that is absolutely full: to the brim.” It just doesn’t fly.

Neither do the readers of the gospel of John: “And from his fulness have we all received, grace upon grace.” (John 1:16)

Nice try but no cigar again. The Greek phrase is plērōmatos . . . charin [πληρώματος . . . χάριν]. If the Holy Spirit, Who inspired the revelation of the Bible, intended for all these passages to have the same exact meaning as Luke 1:28, then the same or equivalent words would have been used. But the fact remains that none of these other “parallels” read the same or mean the same as Luke 1:28. I’m happy to have this opportunity to clarify that and refute the failed analogies once and for all.

If Mary fulfilled all the law, Jesus would not be necessary

It is precisely because no one was able to fulfill all the law that God had to send His only begotten Son “that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life” (Jn.3:16). If Mary, or any human being in the world, had managed to live without committing any sin, fully fulfilling all the law, and had been born without the stain of original sin, then Jesus would be unnecessary . . . 

We totally agree. Mary would have been subject to original sin like all of the rest of us, and would very likely have committed actual sin, if God had not performed a special miracle of freeing her from original sin at conception. So He saved her as much as He saved the rest of us. One can save a person from a pit in two ways: by pulling him or her out of it, or by preventing him or her from ever falling into it in the first place. The “pit” here is a metaphor for sin. The Immaculate Conception is “salvation by prevention.”

For the rest of us who are to be saved, it comes by pulling us out of — redeeming or rescuing us from — the pit of sin that we were already in. That’s why Mary calls God her Savior, too: because His grace saved her just like it saved anyone else who attains salvation and makes it to heaven.

The rest of this section from Lucas is irrelevant, since he fails to understand this fundamental premise that has been discussed in theology for about a thousand years: the notion of “pre-redemption.” Catholics believe Mary was saved only by God’s grace, too: just in a different fashion. She is not “out of the pool” of those saved by Grace Alone. She was a human being like all the rest of us: whom God decreed and chose to make exceptionally holy because she was the Mother of God the Son; the “God-bearer” (Theotokos).

Lucas then repeats his “all have sinned” mantra. I already dealt with that. but here’s one specific (old, tired) aspect that I will directly reply to:

Paul said that there was no one who was completely perfect: “as it is written: “None is righteous, no, not one; [11] no one understands, no one seeks for God. [12] All have turned aside, together they have gone wrong; no one does good, not even one.”” (Romans 3:10-12)

Psalm 14:2-3 The LORD looks down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there are any that act wisely, that seek after God. [3] They have all gone astray, they are all alike corrupt; there is none that does good, [Hebrew, tob] no not one. (cf. 53:1-3; Paul cites this in Rom 3:10-12)

Yet in the immediately preceding Psalm, David proclaims, “I have trusted in thy steadfast love” (13:5), which certainly is “seeking” after God! And in the very next he refers to “He who walk blamelessly, and does what is right” (15:2). Even two verses later (14:5) he writes that “God is with the generation of the righteous.” So obviously his lament in 14:2-3 is an indignant hyperbole and not intended as a literal utterance.

Such remarks are common to Hebrew poetic idiom. The anonymous psalmist in 112:5-6 refers to the “righteous” (Heb. tob), as does the book of Proverbs repeatedly: using the words “righteous” or “good” (11:23; 12:2; 13:22; 14:14, 19), using the same word, tob, which appears in Psalm 14:2-3. References to righteous men are innumerable (e.g., Job 17:9; 22:19; Ps 5:12; 32:11; 34:15; 37:16, 32; Mt 9:13; 13:17; 25:37, 46; Rom 5:19; Heb 11:4; Jas 5:16; 1 Pet 3:12; 4:18, etc.).

With Adam’s death, all men sinned (note: the word anthropos denotes all mankind, obviously not excluding women when saying that “all men have sinned”): “Therefore as sin came into the world through one man and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all men sinned” (Romans 5:12)

That’s referring to original sin, which is precisely what God removed from Mary at conception. That is the miracle and essence of the Immaculate Conception.

3. The Bible only makes an exception for Jesus

Another important point is that the only person for whom the Bible makes an exception is the obvious exception: Jesus.

“For we have not a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet without sin.” (Hebrews 4:15)

“Which of you convicts me of sin? If I tell the truth, why do you not believe me?” (John 8:46)

Neither of these verses rule out the possibility of a sinless person besides Jesus. They merely assert that He was sinless. Lucas’ description of “only” is misguided. It doesn’t follow from what he presents.

Why, then, did no one make the same exception for Mary, especially considering that it was not at all obvious that she was also an exception to the rule?

One did make an exception for Mary: the angel Gabriel in Luke 1:28. He was the one who referred to her in inspired revelation as “full of grace.” And when we analyze in the Bible the notion that grace is the antithesis and overcomer of sin, we conclude that, therefore, being full of grace means being freed from and free of sin. See:

Romans 5:17, 21 If, because of one man’s trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ. . . . [21] so that, as sin reigned in death, grace also might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Romans 6:14 For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace.

2 Corinthians 1:12 . . . holiness and godly sincerity, . . . by the grace of God.

2 Timothy 1:9 who saved us and called us with a holy calling, . . . in virtue of his own purpose and the grace which he gave us in Christ Jesus ages ago,

Lucas has a section called “Mary needed a Savior”; but he exhibits not the slightest inkling of understanding that Catholics fully agree with this (since we, too, revere the Bible as God’s inspired revelation, and read Luke 1:47 just as Protestants do), and how we reason through it. Now (if he reads this) he will understand that, so perhaps he can write a much more serious and worthy analysis next time, instead of forcing me to have to “reinvent the wheel” because he is so profoundly and inexcusably ignorant of historic and Catholic and biblical theology.

In order to be an effective apologist, one must possess this sort of basic knowledge (I’ve been doing Christian apologetics for 41 years, and specifically Catholic apologetics for 32). And until they obtain it, they ought to drop the pretense of being an informed apologist: trying to educate others. Otherwise, it’s the blind leading the blind, similar to the people St. Paul described as those “who will listen to anybody and can never arrive at a knowledge of the truth” (2 Tim 3:7), or whose “god is the belly” (Phil 3:19: one of my very favorite Bible verses!).

6. Mary could not open the seal, nor look at it

In Revelation, John sees a scroll in the form of a scroll written on both sides and sealed with seven seals. He then says:

“and I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, “Who is worthy to open the scroll and break its seals?” [3] And no one in heaven or on earth or under the earth was able to open the scroll or to look into it, [4] and I wept much that no one was found worthy to open the scroll or to into into it. [5] Then one of the elders said to me, “Weep not; lo, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has conquered, so that he can open the scroll and its seven seals.”‘” (Revelation 5:2-5)

Note that no one except Jesus was worthy to open the book or even look at it! John is quite clear in saying that the reason such people could not even look at the book is because they were not worthy of it.

First of all, this doesn’t necessarily have to do with sinlessness. Being “worthy” to do something can also be related to suitability, ability, appropriateness, etc. The word for “worthy” is axios (Strong’s word #514). It has been translated also as “appropriate” (Acts 26:20: NASB) and “fitting” (1 Cor 16:4; 2 Thess 1:3: NASB).

But beyond that preliminary consideration, Jesus opened the scroll because He was God. Lucas is looking at this passage one-dimensionally. The Ignatius Catholic Study Bible (Scott Hahn and Curtis Mitch, 2nd edition, 2010) commented on it:

Christ qualifies as the executor of the Old Covenant (Rev 5:9) with divine authority to administer its blessings and curses. The sealed book refers to Sacred Scripture, for it was opened by no one except Christ, whose death, Resurrection, and Ascension opened access to all the mysteries it contained. (p. 499)

Obviously Mary has none of those divine qualities, and so she (like every other creature) was not “worthy” to open the scroll. She can’t do what only God the Son can do. This contradicts nothing in Catholic Mariology. As the above citation vaguely alludes to, the larger passage literally explains why only Jesus could open the scroll and break the seal. It “authoritatively interprets” the passage under consideration: “Worthy art thou to take the scroll and to open its seals, for thou wast slain and by thy blood didst ransom men for God” (5:9). Isn’t it amazing how much a little biblical context clarifies things? Lucas should try it some time.

The question then becomes: why is Lucas making this issue an anti-Mary polemic, when she clearly has nothing to do with it, since the Bible itself says that Jesus had to do this since only He was “slain” in order for His “blood” to “ransom men for God” (i.e., He alone was the Redeemer and Savior)? Thus all of Lucas’ mocking and tweaking histrionics and melodramatic polemics about Catholic veneration of Mary are utterly and completely irrelevant:

Queen of Heaven, immaculate, totally without any stain of sin throughout her life, the mother of God himself(!) and the wife of the Holy Spirit(!), the helper, the intercessor, the “mother” of all Christians, the perfect “ark”, the mediatrix of graces and even co-redeemer . . . full of grace and a more important person than all the saints and all the angels put together . . . 

Yes she is all that, and (duh!) none of it makes her God (not within a trillion miles), Whom alone could open this seal, per Revelation 5:9. Why does “mother of God” deserve an exclamation point, as if it is some amazing thing? Mary was Jesus’ mother and He was God. Hence, she was the “mother of God”: literally “God-bearer”: which clearly applies only to Jesus, not the Father (neither the father nor the Holy Spirit had a mother: since they are eternal and immaterial spirits). Why is this controversial? It should be only to someone who denies the Trinity or the incarnation.

“Wife of the Holy Spirit” should ruffle no feathers, either. It’s entirely biblical. Scripture speaks in terms of the bride being the Church, and makes analogies between marriage and Christ and His Church. So why should there be controversy about Mary being the spouse of the Holy Spirit? That Jesus’ conception was of the Holy Spirit as a sort of “Father” is plain in the Bible:

Matthew 1:18-20 Now the birth of Jesus Christ took place in this way. When his mother Mary had been betrothed to Joseph, before they came together she was found to be with child of the Holy Spirit; [19] and her husband Joseph, being a just man and unwilling to put her to shame, resolved to divorce her quietly. [20] But as he considered this, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, “Joseph, son of David, do not fear to take Mary your wife, for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit;” (cf. Lk 1:31, 34-35)

Likewise, “spouse of God” is thought to imply an equality with God, when in fact it’s only a limited analogical description based on Mary’s relation to the Holy Spirit in the matter of the conception of Jesus. This description is no more “unbiblical” or non-harmonious with scriptural thought than St. Paul saying “we are God’s fellow workers” (1 Cor 3:9; cf. 2 Cor 6:1), or St. Peter referring to men becoming “partakers of the divine nature” (2 Pet 1:4; cf. 1 Jn 3:2). These are similarly understood as not entailing equality with God. Along these lines, there are many biblical passages about Israel or the Church being the “bride” of God the Father or Jesus Christ, God the Son:

Isaiah 54:5 For your Maker is your husband, the LORD of hosts is his name; . . .

Isaiah 62:5 . . . as the bridegroom rejoices over the bride, so shall your God rejoice over you.

Jeremiah 31:32 . . . my covenant which they broke, though I was their husband, says the LORD. (cf. 3:20)

Hosea 2:16, 19-20 “And in that day, says the LORD, you will call me, `My husband,’ and no longer will you call me, `My Ba’al.’ . . . [19] And I will betroth you to me for ever; . . . (cf. 4:12; 9:1)

Matthew 9:15 And Jesus said to them, “Can the wedding guests mourn as long as the bridegroom is with them?” (cf. Mk 2:19-20; Lk 5:34-35; Mt 25:1-10)

2 Corinthians 11:2 I feel a divine jealousy for you, for I betrothed you to Christ to present you as a pure bride to her one husband.

Ephesians 5:28-29, 32 Even so husbands should love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. [29] For no man ever hates his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, as Christ does the church, . . . [32] This mystery is a profound one, and I am saying that it refers to Christ and the church (cf. Rev 19:7; 21:2; 21:9)

Given all of this biblical data, saying that Mary is the “spouse of God” should not present any difficulty at all to anyone who accepts the Bible as God’s inspired revelation. The only possible objection would come from not understanding what is meant by the phrase in the first place. And as usual, that is Lucas’ problem, and that of the legion of anti-Catholic “Know-Nothings” with whom he hangs around. Willful ignorance and bigotry apparently have a very strong hold on a great number of people. I try my best to educate folks, so they can be freed from this  intolerable burden and yoke that people like Lucas perpetuate. Truth is the liberator!

“E for effort” though, and thanks for the chuckles. I needed some comic relief at this point, having endured only by God’s grace the fathomless imbecilities and vapid, fatuous nonsense that relentlessly dominates this wretched effort from Lucas.  Some may think I exaggerate. But I think it’s an understatement. Finally — thank heavens –, I reach the final section (thanks for your prayers for my patience!):

7. Mary recognized herself as a sinner

Another New Testament evidence that Mary did not consider herself immaculate, but saw herself as a sinner, just like all other human beings, is in Luke 2:24, which says: “and to offer a sacrifice according to what is said in the law of the Lord, “a pair of turtledoves, or two young pigeons.”” 

By the law the iniquity of the woman who had given birth was atoned for in this way:

“And when the days of her purifying are completed, whether for a son or for a daughter, she shall bring to the priest at the door of the tent of meeting a lamb a year old for a burnt offering, and a young pigeon or a turtledove for a sin offering, [7] and he shall offer it before the LORD, and make atonement for her; then she shall be clean from the flow of her blood. This is the law for her who bears a child, either male or female. [8] And if she cannot afford a lamb, then she shall take two turtledoves or two young pigeons, one for a burnt offering and the other for a sin offering; and the priest shall make atonement for her, and she shall be clean.” (Leviticus 12:6-8). [Lucas mistakenly had “2:6-8”]

If Mary were immaculate, the only sacrifice needed would be that of one pigeon for the holocaust, but never of the other, which was for sins. Mary, once again, shows that she recognized herself as a sinner.

The question involves the relationship of ritual uncleanliness to sin and morality. They are two different things. A Catholic priest who goes by the name of AthanasiusOfAlex explains:

In summary, in Israel, so-called “sin” offerings were offered for transgressions against the ritual law, not so much for offenses against the moral law.

Moreover, just as Jesus submitted himself to the baptism of John, even though he did not need to repent of any sins, Mary wished to fulfill the requirements of the Jewish law out of loving obedience to God.

There is, therefore, no contradiction between Mary’s sinlessness (in the moral sense) and her offering a sacrifice to remove the merely ritual impurity associated with childbirth. . . .

In ancient Israel, women were considered ritually unclean for a few weeks after the birth of her child. (It varied according to the sex of the child; a total of 40 days for a boy, and 80 days for a girl. See vv. 2-6.) That essentially meant that they were unable to partake of the liturgical celebrations until their uncleanliness was over, at which time they were to make a sin offering, or either a lamb or a pair of pigeons or turtledoves (vv. 6-8).

But it is important to note that ritual uncleanliness had nothing to do with moral uncleanliness. Leviticus chapter 4 introduces the concept of sin offerings in this way:

And the Lord spoke to Moses, saying, “Speak to the people of Israel, saying, If anyone sins unintentionally in any of the Lord’s commandments about things not to be done, and does any one of them, if it is the anointed priest who sins … [and it goes on to spell out what each group should do] (Lev. 4:1-3).

Sin offering could only be offered for unintentional transgressions and, in general for the removal of ritual uncleanliness. There was, in fact, no provision in the Law for the forgiveness of moral offenses—and this lack was one of the constant sufferings of the People of Israel. . . .

It should be observed that the Law did not make any exceptions. The moral character of the woman was never considered; all women had to make the sin offering after childbirth. . . .

Jesus did something similar when he received the baptism of John. Jesus was also sinless and (unlike Mary) incapable of sinning; and yet he received the baptism of repentance, because it was “fitting … to fulfill all righteousness” (Mt. 3:15). (“How does one reconcile the sinlessness of Mary with her sin offering in Luke 2:24?”Christianity.StackExchange, answer given on 9-15-15)

With regard to the differentiation of moral and ritual impurities or uncleanliness in the Old Testament, in RSV, the word “unwittingly” is applied 13 times to sins where the person was unaware of having committed them. Peter Turner offered another answer on the same web page, on 5-4-18:

Archbishop Fulton Sheen addresses this in his Life of Christ. He notes that this is akin to the Circumcision of Jesus, he says these are two sides sin, one “the necessity of enduring pain to expiate for it” and the “need for purification”. He says that Jesus didn’t need to be circumcised because He was God and she didn’t need to be purified because she was conceived without sin. But, to show “this Child’s dedication to the Father was absolute, and would lead Him to the Cross” all those events took place.

Pastor Ricky Kurth, in his article, “Did Christ Offer Animal Sacrifices?” (Berean Bible Society) offers further analogies of the sinless Christ also participating in such Mosaic rituals:

[T]he Law required men to keep the seven feasts of Leviticus 23, each of which involved an animal sacrifice, and we know the Lord kept Israel’s feasts (Luke 22:15; John 7:2,10). These sacrifices were offered for the people of Israel as a whole, and He was one of the people, and so in this way He identified with them with animal sacrifices.

See also: Protestant Claim: “Mary was a Sinner Because She Offered a Sacrifice” [Kris Smith, Da Pacem Domine, 3-15-20].

I rest my case.

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Photo credit: Immaculate Conception (1635), by Francisco de Zurbarán (1598-1664) [public domain / Wikimedia Commons]

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Summary: Brazilian Protestant apologist Lucas Banzoli foolishly attacks the sinlessness of the Blessed Virgin Mary by absurdly battling several imaginary “Mariological straw men.”

 

2023-02-21T15:51:32-04:00

vs. Lucas Banzoli

Lucas Banzoli is a very active Brazilian anti-Catholic polemicist, who holds to basically a Seventh-Day Adventist theology, whereby there is no such thing as a soul that consciously exists outside of a body, and no hell (soul sleep and annihilationism). This leads him to a Christology which is deficient and heterodox in terms of Christ’s human nature after His death. He has a Master’s degree in theology, a degree and postgraduate work in history, a license in letters, and is a history teacher, author of 25 books, as well as blogmaster (but now inactive) for six blogs. He’s active on YouTube.

The words of Lucas Banzoli will be in blue. I use RSV for the Bible passages unless otherwise indicated.

This is my 18th refutation of articles written by Lucas Banzoli. As of yet, I haven’t received a single word in reply to any of them (or if Banzoli has replied to anything, anywhere, he certainly hasn’t informed me of it). Readers may decide for themselves why that is the case.

*****

I’m replying to a portion of Lucas’ article, “E não a conheceu até que…” [“And knew her not until…” ] (8-16-12).

The fact that Matthew also adds that Mary gave birth to her “firstborn” (v. 25) also indicates that she had other children. Otherwise, he would simply have written that Jesus was his “only son”, as the Bible often states in other cases, where in fact there were no other brothers in the family. . ., as in the case of the widow of Nain, whose “only son” (Lk. 7:12) had died, and of the man who wanted to cast out the devil from his son, because he was his “only son” (Lk. 9:38).

Why is it not written in these cases that they were her firstborn sons? Because they were his only children. When someone was the first of other children of the same mother, it is common for the Bible to call “firstborn”; however, when he is not only the first but also the only one, the word often used is “only child”, . . . 

This is a decent argument, and deserves a reply. I would note, however, that the phrase “only son” (applying to persons other than Jesus) occurs in the New Testament (in the RSV) only twice (Lk 7:12; Heb 11:17), while “only child” appears exactly once (Lk 9:38). This is why Lucas mentioned the two instances in Luke, because they are two out of only three total. For whatever reason, the New Testament uses these terms very rarely.

But I still grant that the argument carries some force, which is why I am writing about it. If Lucas asks me why it is that Jesus is never called an “only son”: a thing that would put this whole controversy to rest (which would have been a good thing!), I reply, “I have no idea.” We can’t figure everything out in the Bible or understand why some things are written and others are not written, which would clarify and put a lot of historic controversies to rest.

Yet our inability to fully understand is to be expected when we are talking about an inspired revelation that comes from an infinitely intelligent, omniscient God. So I don’t know, and I don’t have the slightest embarrassment or shame in admitting that. There are lots of things we don’t know about God, theology, and the Bible.

That said, the Catholic can still “turn the tables” on the Protestant and demonstrate by several solid analogies that this difficulty (of something not explicitly and clearly stated in the Bible that presumably or seemingly ought to be if a thing is true) is not unique to us. Protestants have several major ones of their own, along the same lines. If this factor is a “problem” for Catholics, so it also is for Protestants (and I say, in several far more problematic and more internally inconsistent ways).

The two “pillars” of the so-called Protestant “Reformation” are sola Scriptura (the Bible only as the only infallible rule of faith) and sola fide (justification by faith alone). Yet neither thing is explicitly spelled out in the Bible; not even close. Here is how three prominent modern-day Protestant apologists define sola Scriptura:

What Protestants mean by sola scriptura is that the Bible alone is the infallible written authority for faith and morals. (Evangelical Protestant Norman Geisler: Roman Catholics and Evangelicals: Agreements and Differences, Grand Rapids, Michigan: Baker Books, 1995, 178; co-author, Ralph E. Mackenzie)

The doctrine of sola scriptura, simply stated, is that the Scriptures alone are sufficient to function as the regula fidei, the infallible rule of faith for the Church. (Reformed Baptist James R. White: The Roman Catholic Controversy, Minneapolis: Bethany House Publishers, 1996, 59)

Scripture . . . is the only inspired and inherently infallible norm, and therefore Scripture is the only final authoritative norm. (Reformed Protestant Keith A. Mathison: The Shape of Sola Scriptura, Moscow, Idaho: Canon Press, 2001, 260)

See also various “classical” Protestant definitions: all consistent with the above. Such a thing is never remotely stated in the Bible. It doesn’t exist, period. I’ve written three books about the topic and I have sought for such a verse and asked every Protestant I debate with to come up with one. It’s not there. Even a prominent (and worthy and able) Protestant apologist like the Lutheran pastor Jordan Cooper recently freely conceded this point:

I think the question that we have is: do we have to find a particular Scripture that says Scripture is the only authority? And I just don’t think we have to. We don’t. There’s nothing in — you can’t find — in any of Paul’s letters, for example, . . . “by the way, Scripture is the only authority and traditions are not an authority and there is no magisterium that is given some kind of infallible authority to pass on infallible teachings.” It seems like a lot of Roman Catholic apologists think that for Protestants to defend their position, that they have to find a text that says that.” I think, more so, what we have to do is just speak about the unique authority of Scripture and the unique nature of Scripture, and just to say that Scripture does present itself as God-breathed. 2 Timothy 3:16 is kind of the famous text that says this . . . [1:39-2:35, in the video, “A Defense of Sola Scriptura (3-12-19)]

Does sola Scriptura have to be spelled out in the Bible in order for the view to be self-consistent and valid? Of course it does! I’ve laid out that rather straightforward and solid argument elsewhere. I recently expressed it in a nutshell, in a Facebook reply to another Protestant YouTube Apologist, Collin Brooks (modified slightly):

It’s my contention that sola Scriptura, by its very nature, must be able to be defended from Holy Scripture, or else it is viciously self-defeating, and a mere arbitrary tradition of men: as such, not worthy of allegiance, and of no compelling authority.
*
Protestants have, nevertheless, made it their formal rule of faith, without the grounding in Scripture that it must have in order to consistently be granted such an imposing epistemological status.
*
In my opinion, this must be done before the discussion can sensibly continue. Why do Protestants hold to sola Scriptura in the first place? It becomes an example of “the emperor is naked.” Protestants refuse to grapple with the shocking realization that it has no scriptural basis.
*
Whether or not any given Catholic can defend his own critiques of sola Scriptura and assertions of the infallibility of Church and Tradition or not (I think I can, if I do say so), it remains the burden of Protestantism and Protestant theologians and apologists to demonstrate how and why sola Scriptura is a biblically required doctrine, over against the constant Catholic apostolic tradition that directly contradicts it. And Catholics must press this point, because it’s so absolutely fundamental and necessary for Protestants to adequately explain their rule of faith in a non-self-contradictory manner.
I set forth the argument in much more depth in my article, Sola Scriptura: Self-Refuting? (vs. Steve Hays) [12-14-21]. But this seems not to give Protestants any pause at all. They are absolutely determined to hold on to this invented tradition of men (which suddenly appeared almost fifteen centuries after Christ), despite the fact that the Bible nowhere teaches it. They seem to be blissfully unaware of how viciously self-refuting and epistemologically ludicrous such a scenario is. This is a far greater difficulty for their view than the Bible never stating “Jesus was Mary’s only son” is for the belief in Mary’s perpetual virginity (because we have many other biblical arguments, whereas Protestants have none for the actual definition and concept of sola Scriptura).
*
The second Protestant pillar is sola fide. It, too, is not taught in the Bible, and in fact is expressly denied in at least two passages:
James 2:24 (RSV) You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.
*
James 2:26 For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead.
In a nutshell, as James 2:26 makes the most clear: faith, in order to be genuine, authentic faith, must have the aspect of works inherently connected with it; part and parcel of it; two sides of the same coin. Thus, good works become a crucial part of the process of salvation: not in and of or by themselves (which is the heresy of works-salvation or Pelagianism) but as inevitably a part of faith, by definition. That is the biblical and Catholic view.
*
But Protestants, despite not being able to identify any undeniable biblical teaching of faith alone, nevertheless irrationally and unbiblically insist that works have nothing whatsoever to do with salvation, and put them in a separate, non-salvific box of “sanctification.” For the Catholic, sanctification is organically part of justification. This, too, is a much greater difficulty for their view than the Bible never stating “Jesus was Mary’s only son” is for ours.
*
As a third argument, the Bible never lists the books of its own canon. Whether a book is canonical or not, cannot be determined by utilizing the Bible as the only infallible norm of faith. It is necessarily and inevitably dependent upon historic Catholic Church authority, which decreed which books were in the Bible in the late 4th century. This is an insuperable problem for Protestant authority and its rule of faith. It amounts to what the late Presbyterian theologian R. C. Sproul candidly described as a “fallible collection of infallible books.” But do Protestants as a whole care about this huge internal contradiction? No! They go on about their merry way, assuming that the canon is determined, and hardly ever considering how it was . . .
*
A fourth analogy is denominationalism, which is never taught in the Bible and is expressly contradicted whenever the New Testament refers to “the Church” or “the truth” or “the tradition” and whenever it condemns divisiveness and sectarianism (as it often does). As one aspect of this atrocious denominationalism, Protestants come up with the special pleading of supposed “primary and secondary doctrines”: with the first set required and the second up for grabs (thus allowing countless theological contradictions to exist; even encouraged!). But that, too, is nowhere found in the Bible. So we have an unbiblical tradition of men utilized for the sake of rationalizing the initial unbiblical tradition of men: and this from the folks who supposedly “always go by the Bible alone”: whereas we Catholics — so they never tire of telling us — supposedly look down on the Bible and Bible proofs.
*
A fifth thing I would bring up as an example of a theological doctrine only implicitly outlined in the Bible, is the divinity of the Holy Spirit. The Bible doesn’t state outright: “the Holy Spirit is God” or “the Holy Spirit is the third Person of the Holy Trinity” (“the word “trinity” never appears, either). I went through the argument forty years ago in my massive study of biblical trinitarianism: one of my first major apologetics projects. Probably the best argument for this is the following deductive one:
Acts 5:3-4  But Peter said, “Anani’as, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back part of the proceeds of the land? [4] . . . You have not lied to men but to God.”
This works by the following logic:
1) Ananias lied to the Holy Spirit.
2) The same act of Ananias is also described as his having “lied to God.”
3) Therefore, the Holy Spirit is God.
That may not be readily apparent, and I think most people would miss it, if it wasn’t spelled out to them. I never thought of it myself until I first saw this explained.
So, as in all these cases, we have to ask, in our turning the tables analogical argument:
1) If sola Scriptura is true, why doesn’t the Bible simply state something akin to the classic Protestant definition? And, lacking that, why do Protestants accept it as Gospel Truth anyway and make their entire theology dependent on a thing never asserted in the Bible?
*
2) If sola fide is true, why doesn’t the Bible state something akin to the classic Protestant definition? And, lacking that, why do Protestants accept it as Gospel Truth anyway and make their entire soteriology dependent on a thing never stated in the Bible, and a thing the Bible condemns at least twice (James 2:24, 26)?
*
3) Why didn’t the Bible make it easy for all Christians and state which books are included in it? Instead, the Church had to go through a 400-year process to reach consensus, only to have Protestants decide to throw out (demote) seven Old Testament books 11oo years later, and we have been wrangling about which books are in the Bible ever since. All God had to do to prevent all that was provide a list that was itself inspired and infallible. But He chose not to. Why?
*
4) Why didn’t God state through His inspired revelation: the Bible, that denominations are fine and dandy and part His will for Christianity: with His blessing!? He chose not to. We say it is because the notion is against His will, since it’s condemned over and over in Scripture. Yet Protestants think they’re perfectly acceptable in the final analysis, since they have no way to prevent their proliferation, and so they simply don’t care that denominations are utterly absent from the Bible. Well, some do, but they’re helpless to do anything about it.
*
5) Why didn’t God make the divinity of the Holy Spirit clear in the Bible, or much more clear than He did?
Lots of things for our esteemed separated brethren to think about!
*

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Practical Matters: Perhaps some of my 4,000+ free online articles (the most comprehensive “one-stop” Catholic apologetics site) or fifty books have helped you (by God’s grace) to decide to become Catholic or to return to the Church, or better understand some doctrines and why we believe them.

Or you may believe my work is worthy to support for the purpose of apologetics and evangelism in general. If so, please seriously consider a much-needed financial contribution. I’m always in need of more funds: especially monthly support. “The laborer is worthy of his wages” (1 Tim 5:18, NKJV). 1 December 2021 was my 20th anniversary as a full-time Catholic apologist, and February 2022 marked the 25th anniversary of my blog.

PayPal donations are the easiest: just send to my email address: [email protected]. You’ll see the term “Catholic Used Book Service”, which is my old side-business. To learn about the different methods of contributing, including 100% tax deduction, etc., see my page: About Catholic Apologist Dave Armstrong / Donation InformationThanks a million from the bottom of my heart!

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Photo credit: Virgin and Child with Four Angels, by Gerard David (c. 1450/1460-1523) [public domain / Wikimedia Commons]

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Summary: Why doesn’t Scripture call Jesus an “only child”? Good question! I don’t know why. But I do know that there are at least five similar “problem areas” for Protestants, too.

2022-08-13T13:55:16-04:00

[originally posted on 10 January 2005, incorporating material from 5 June 2003]

A lamentable incident on a discussion board (one of many) revealed certain shortcomings in Dr. Eric Svendsen’s dialogical tactics. One anti-Catholic slanderer wrote on a large Catholic Discussion Board, in early October 2003:

It is true that I have taken Dave to task in the past for attempting, in his self-admitted near-total ignorance of the Greek language, to correct men who have studied Greek professionally for years as to their analysis of grammatical conventions and figures of speech and so forth, . . .

This is another falsehood that this person has been stating about me for about two years now. I have explained myself more than once, but to no avail. He keeps repeating this incident and putting his cynical slant on it. To hear him describe it, I do sound truly ridiculous and like some sort of arrogant know-it-all.

This is based on an actual dispute and ugly Internet exchange, but when one learns all of the facts, they gain an entirely different impression than the one left above. The last time he brought this up I was determined to retrieve the exchange to show people what had happened, but it was too old, and no longer online. The facts are these:

1. I was in a discussion (in January 2002) on this board with Dr. Eric Svendsen about Luke 1:28 and the meaning of kecharitomene (“full of grace” or “highly favored”). It was an argument about Mary’s Immaculate Conception (specifically, whether she was sinless). I cited Greek scholars in favor of the meaning of this phrase here as “completely, perfectly, enduringly endowed with grace.”

The scholars were Blass and DeBrunner (Greek Grammar of the New Testament), and H. W. Smyth (Greek Grammar — Harvard Univ. Press, 1968). They are cited in footnote number 188 in my book, A Biblical Defense of Catholicism (2003, Sophia Institute Press, page 178).

Svendsen said that he had heard of Blass and DeBrunner, but not Smyth. He proceeded to minimize Smyth’s importance and severely criticized me for trying to argue a point of Greek grammar with him (since he knows Greek).

2. I quickly proved (from extensive Internet searches) that Smyth was a very well-known Greek scholar, whose work is used in many important colleges for Greek courses. Now, the point was that Svendsen had hardly even heard of the guy (if at all) and wanted to pretend he was a nobody. That was shown to be clearly false. But what does that show about Svendsen’s attitude and competence in the field of Greek linguistics? When one acts like they know something that they don’t know (in this case, concerning the importance of Smyth), isn’t that at least pretentious?

3. Svendsen later found out (from James White, I think) that Smyth’s Grammar was for classical, not koine NT Greek. This he thought to be a knockout punch and proof of my ignorance and arrogance, in trying to delve into matters of Greek, where I knew nothing.

4. I publicly apologized to him on the board at that time, for some of my words and attitudes, and for questioning his abilities in Greek.

5. On the other hand, I also pointed out that the whole incident reflected much more badly on him, since (despite claiming to be an expert on Greek) he had mocked this important, well-known, prominent scholar and hadn’t even heard of him, and didn’t know that his widely-used work (which is even available online now) was for classical Greek in the first place. He was supposed to know this stuff, whereas I (as a non-scholar) had simply made an innocent mistake. And I apologized, whereas he did not.

6. The most amusing thing in all this was that Eric’s own research associate, Mike Taylor, was utilizing Smyth in some in-depth exegetical research he was doing concerning the Eucharist. So at the very same time I was being blasted as an ignoramus and pretender for merely citing Smyth, Eric’s own comrade was citing him! When I pointed out the incongruity and irony of this to both of them, needless to say I didn’t receive the warmest reception in world history.

Proof of Mike Taylor’s heavy use of H.W. Smyth, whom he used to support his contentions, can be found in a densely argued paper about the Eucharist and aspects of Greek grammar, entitled, “Sungenis and Taylor: An Exchange.” I have compiled below Mike Taylor’s citations of Smyth (with added bolding). Nowhere does he argue that Smyth is 1) unimportant as a Greek grammarian, or, 2) that he is absolutely irrelevant because his grammar is for classical rather than koine Greek.

It’s true that he does mention the classical vs. koine Greek distinction (#12, 14-15), and the implications of that with regard to using Smyth as an authority on the New Testament, but nowhere does he imply that Smyth has no bearing on New Testament grammar at all (let alone that he is a “nobody”). If he believed that, then he would have simply refused to engage the argument (classical Greek being irrelevant to it).

He even cites Smyth in support of the interpretation of NT passages (see #3 below). His comrade, Dr. Eric Svendsen, on the other hand, argued both points as proof of my gross incompetence as an apologist, since I had dared to cite Smyth in support of my exegesis of Luke 1:28:

1) I tracked down one of those grammarians (Smyth) who says no such thing, . . .

2) I looked in Smyth to see if I could find any evidence for your “special case” and simply found no such thing. So if it turns out that you were wrong about Smyth (and you are) then would I be wrong to wonder if you might be wrong about the other grammarians?

3) . . . this really isn’t the section of Smyth that is most relevant to the point in question. In the quote above, Smyth himself refers us to section 1872 (p. 419) wherein we read the following: 1872. “Participle (not in indirect discourse).–The participle, as a verbal adjective, is timeless. The tenses of the participle express only continuance, simple occurrence, and completion with permanent result. Whether the action expressed by the participle is antecedent, coincident, or subsequent to that of the leading verb (in any tense) depends on the context.” The key words here are the following: “not in indirect discourse,” (which would cover both Matthew 26:28 and Luke 22:19f); “in any tense” (which would cover the present indicative main verbs in both Matthew and Luke) and “depends on the context” . . .

4) Here is what Smyth says of the present participle in 1872a . . .

5) We’ve already seen Sungenis’ mishandling of Smyth. Why, then, should we simply take his word for it that Shanz is on his side?

6) But the rule you stated didn’t register for me, so I got out Smyth (which was my textbook at Harvard) and Wallace (the current “Bible” of NT grammars) and did some reading.

7) With that in mind, I went back to Smyth a second time to see if I could find any evidence for such a distinction. So far, no luck. Then I went to Zerwick to see what he says.

8) Essentially, Wallace is saying that the time reference for participles is usually determined by the main verb. This accords with what I learned in Greek class and with what I have read in Smyth and Zerwick.

9) Rather than admit that his Smyth quote really does not support his claims, he instead attempts to play off Smyth against Zerwick.

10) I would respectfully suggest that Mr. Sungenis is in no position to judge between the Zerwick and Smyth.

11) Mr. Sungenis’ attempt to pit Smyth against Zerwick is misguided. Mr. Sungenis rightly notes that Smyth claims that participles not in indirect discourse are “timeless.” Unfortunately, Mr. Sungenis neglects to mention the following: “Whether the action expressed by the participle is antecedent, coincident, or subsequent to that of the leading verb (in any tense) depends on the context” (Smyth: 1872, my emphasis). This is a crucial qualification. Would Zerwick disagree with Smyth on this point?

12) Right away, then, we see that a direct comparison of Smyth to Zerwick is invalid. Smyth’s grammar only deals with classical Greek, whereas Zerwick’s Biblical Greek concerns—you guessed it—Biblical Greek.

13) Second, in full agreement with Smyth, Zerwick states that the context shows the sense to be future.

14) Mr. Sungenis’ case is weakened somewhat by two factors: First, to the extent that he is basing his case on a Smyth, he weakens his case in that Smyth’s scope is classical Greek, not Koine. Second, the rules he had originally quoted from Smyth govern participles in indirect discourse, whereas the participles in question are in direct discourse.

15) There is therefore no fundamental disagreement here with Smyth, who in any case is dealing with classical Greek, not the Biblical Koine and its underlying Semitisms.

16) Does this not suggest that Sungenis was unaware of the fact that the present participle can be future no matter what the tense of the main verb (cf. Smyth 1872, p. 419)?

17) I went back to Smyth a second time to see if I could find any evidence for such a distinction.

Svendsen and I have never interacted in any substantive way since then. My calumnious detractor keeps bringing up this incident in order to “prove” something about me that is untrue. He never mentions, of course, my apology (because that would ruin the effectiveness of the slander; apart from showing that it is highly unethical), and he never gets into the gist of what actually occurred (because that would make Eric Svendsen look really bad, just as he did at the time).

I’ve repeatedly urged him to drop it and decided not to post the argument at the time (as an act of charity), but since he won’t let it drop, and keeps talking about this publicly, I must record the incident now, so it will be a matter of record.

It may seem to be a minor point, but when the incident is fully explained, people can see what I was getting at, and that I was perfectly justified in my observation; it wasn’t a case at all of trying to talk about something (on my own, without the aid of scholars) that I knew nothing about (Greek). If anything, Dr. Svendsen was the one who made statements he knew little or nothing about (about Smyth’s credentials and importance).

***

Practical Matters: Perhaps some of my 4,000+ free online articles (the most comprehensive “one-stop” Catholic apologetics site) or fifty books have helped you (by God’s grace) to decide to become Catholic or to return to the Church, or better understand some doctrines and why we believe them.

Or you may believe my work is worthy to support for the purpose of apologetics and evangelism in general. If so, please seriously consider a much-needed financial contribution. I’m always in need of more funds: especially monthly support. “The laborer is worthy of his wages” (1 Tim 5:18, NKJV). 1 December 2021 was my 20th anniversary as a full-time Catholic apologist, and February 2022 marked the 25th anniversary of my blog.

PayPal donations are the easiest: just send to my email address: [email protected]. You’ll see the term “Catholic Used Book Service”, which is my old side-business. To learn about the different methods of contributing, including 100% tax deduction, etc., see my page: About Catholic Apologist Dave Armstrong / Donation InformationThanks a million from the bottom of my heart!

***

Summary: Anti-Catholic apologist Eric Svendsen & his buddies claimed that I pretended to know Greek grammar. The incident in question provides a very different picture.

2022-08-12T13:17:32-04:00

[originally posted on my blog on 25 April 2010; Eric Svendsen’s words will be in blue]

There was a time (the early years of the 21st century) when Eric Svendsen (of “NTRMin” fame), a former Catholic, was (by all appearances) the second most influential anti-Catholic to be found online, after Bishop “Dr.” [???] James White. I first ran across him in 1996 when I participated in an e-mail list discussion group on sola Scriptura, hosted by Bishop James White himself, that he was also part of. In those days, Eric and I could actually have a civil dialogue (!!!). I thought he was a friendly sort: a bit different from the typical and sadly numerous vitriolic, axe-to-grind, obnoxious, know-it-all (about Catholicism) anti-Catholics online.

But in time everything goes the way of the dinosaur, and our relations inevitably soured (because of his anti-Catholicism). I posted some of our dialogues from that time and place later, and he accused me of deliberately slanting them, to be biased and unfair to him. I offered to work with him to edit them whatever way he wished — trying to be as conciliatory and fair as I could — , but he refused.

Svendsen decided in the late 90s to cease debating Catholics in writing, and hence, refused my offer to take him on in such debate (which is ironic, since I am regularly mocked by anti-Catholics for my 2007 decision to cease trying to debate them any longer). He wrote on Steve Ray’s discussion board in December 2000: ” ‘no written debates’ became a personal policy for me a couple of years ago.

This was a matter of time stewardship for him, as he went on to explain (just as it largely is for me, too). This may also be the key to the demise of his website and blog (it would be my best guess as to his own reasoning). He’s a pastor of a church, after all, and I believe he has some sort of business that has brought him considerable wealth. Hence, he wrote in a letter to me, dated 1-13-01:

I do not think you’ve fairly considered all the things I do that prevent me from engaging in ongoing online discussions. Ministry comes first to me, but I have to choose my battles carefully and focus on those things that make the most efficient use of my time.

That’s a perfectly legitimate, sensible reason. Yet if we refuse to do oral debates with anti-Catholics (as I have always done for several good reasons: none of which include fear or inability on my part), we are always accused of concealing our “real” reasons for doing so. Hence, Eric had to cynically spin and wax condescendingly as follows in a piece from December 2000:

I think the general opposition to oral debates on the Roman Catholic side is not what you assert it is, Dave. I think rather it stems from the fact that Roman Catholics don’t fare well in that venue. . . . The real reason the Evangelical side fares better in these debates is because–surprise!–it is easier to fare better when you hold to a view that is actually supported by the evidence. It’s just that simple. In public debates, anti-Evangelical apologists end up spending their allotted time engaging in highly dubious exegesis that results in convoluted conclusions based on passages that are strung together in patchwork fashion. By the end of the debate, it becomes painfully obvious that they are promulgating untenable positions. Heck, If I had to do that, I wouldn’t want to debate publicly either!

Despite this stated antipathy to online discussions and debate, Svendsen — a year or two later — nevertheless opened up his NTRMin discussion board, called The Areopagus, claiming (on an old — also defunct — prominent Catholic discussion board) that it would be a place where free discussion took place, and no nonsense allowed (right . . .).

Within a few weeks it was the same old same old: massive double standards of what anti-Catholics could say, vs. what Catholics could utter; arbitrary bannings (myself being one, very quickly), absurd fact-challenged rantings from Eric and resident “enforcer” David T. King [the most foul-mouthed, uncharitable anti-Catholic I’ve ever encountered online, bar none]; very few actual dialogues, patronizing lectures, and so forth. When I and fellow Catholic apologist Scott Windsor were banned, Svendsen had the following to say:

We stopped interacting with them because trying to explain their errors to them became much like trying to explain physics to a five-year old. You can explain these things in vain only so many times before the principle of diminishing returns comes into play. (Areopagus, 3-22-04; link now defunct)

I observed Eric behaving in exactly the opposite way of his stated intentions of charitable, civil discourse, expressed to me in a relatively friendly, irenic letter (the last such one from him) of 1-13-01:

I would like to apologize to you for the way in which I communicated my disinterest in an online debate . . . my method of communicating all that to you was caustic and unbecoming a Christian apologist, and for that I apologize. I intend to treat my opponents fairly, and with respect and dignity, and to the extent that I failed to do that, I apologize.

The same goes for my dialog with Mark Shea . . . I came on strong because I felt he took some swipes at my credibility and capabilities as an apologist. In short, I felt he disrespected me . . . I would never dream of calling my opponent’s views “stupid” in a public forum . . . I think such terminology, if not an ad hominem attack, is nevertheless highly insulting. However, in spite of the extent to which Mark wishes to diminish me by labeling my views as “stupid,” I should have continued along the high road that I had been taking since I heard of his comments several months ago. Again, I apologize. From this point on I have resolved not to lower myself to be moved by that kind of insult.

Svendsen would never dream of calling someone “stupid” — that is, until 4-27-03 on his discussion board:

After a while one just gets tired of the stupidity of some people. Some people have emotionally hysterical fits when you tell them there is both an objective and a subjective element to determining the canon. Why? Well, because that makes it more difficult for them pin you against the wall with their grubby little hands so that they can do everything in their power to destroy you. That is, after all, why some on this board persist with the nonsense they do . . . They persist in taunting and flaunting and hounding that they weren’t satisfied with my answers; but neither one of them can make a simple case for their own views . . . To give them even more answers at this point would be to dignify their inane responses and to throw pearls before swine. I decline to do that.

Before we knew it, our hero was even condemning folks to hell and expressing wonderfully irenic, charitable sentiments like the following:

RC apologists will do or say just about anything–true or not–to advance their cause. They engage in the strategy of deception regularly(Areopagus: 4-27-03)

[W]e have experience with those who use the “strategy of deceit” to mislead people down the road to a false gospel. (Areopagus: 6-4-03)
These perceptions are subjective, but I thought that Svendsen seemed to sour and take on a very bitter, angry, sourpuss persona over time. I think that some people are simply not cut out for Internet dialogue, or dialogue, period, with folks who are different from them. A certain cast of mind (presumably insecure in some fashion) has to demonize virtually all opponents. Unfortunately, anti-Catholic ideology accentuates these shortcomings, despite the fact that one can be fully opposed to Catholic doctrine without trashing and insulting individual Catholics. But such an unsavory attitude is very prevalent.
*

Apart from absurd, slanderous statements such as the above, Svendsen through the years has been given to ridiculous histrionics; the most famous and notorious being his ludicrous 1999 offer of $100,000 to anyone who could give proper answers to 18 of his “tough questions” for Catholics. To my knowledge, the $100,000 wasn’t delivered (my, what a shocking surprise!).

Eric later explained (with more spinning than a spinning wheel) that it was done in humor: the point being that Catholics can’t possibly answer these things, so that the money could be offered in the first place: there being no conceivable eventuality of any necessity to deliver it to dumb, dense Catholics who would never be able to reply. This stunt was pretty much the end of Svendsen’s credibility in the eyes of most Catholic apologists.

Another astonishing statement was when, on his discussion board on 17 January 2004, he described Catholics as:

. . . those who would raise Mary to the status of the Trinity and proclaim a false gospel that condemns.

Challenged by Reformed Protestant theologian Paul Owen to prove this absurd description, Eric retorted on 19 January 2004:

If what you mean by this is that you’ll find no official RC statement that says “we elevate Mary to the status of the Trinity,” then I’m happy to agree. Of course you’re not going to find anything as overt as that. What you’ll find instead is that Mary is [laundry list of Catholic titles for Mary given] . . . With titles like these, who in the world needs an explicit statement that Mary is on par with the Trinity?

Since Owen dared to disagree with Svendsen and defend the Catholic Church against ridiculous and utterly false charges, he had to be pilloried as a traitor to the cause. Thus, Dr. Owen — a fellow Protestant; even a Reformed one — was supposedly all of the following things, as stated by Eric Svendsen on his discussion board:

1) of questionable motivation.
2) of questionable adherence to Reformed Protestantism (“claims”).
3) has “no knowledge about that which he addresses.
4) is locked up in “an ivory tower.”
5) is insincere when he claims he wants to engage in discussion with different viewpoints.
6) dares to befriend a Catholic apologist!
7) “entertains idolatrous beliefs”.
8) rubs shoulders with “Judaizers”.
9) undermines “evangelistic efforts of others.”
10) is equivalent in character to Alexander the Coppersmith.
11) is “emotionally disturbed.”
12) is “extremely divisive.”
13) has “an unhealthy interest in quarrels.”
14) is a “cowardly antagonist.”
15) is obsessed with “slander” (of Svendsen).
16) wants to destroy ministries that proclaim the gospel.

So much for Svendsen’s stated intentions of 1-13-01:

I intend to treat my opponents fairly, and with respect and dignity, . . . I would never dream of calling my opponent’s views “stupid” in a public forum . . . I think such terminology, if not an ad hominem attack, is nevertheless highly insulting.

Even more unbelievable, perhaps, was his mocking of the looks of a theological opponent (yes, you read that right) — one who happens to be a medical doctor –, in a piece on his website [link now defunct] (around May 2004, I believe, since that was when I documented it):

I’ve included here a photo of Artie Sippo to help the reader get a sense of the situation. Artie’s physical appearance would be completely irrelevant were it not for his “brave” comments above. . . . [It] begins to make profound sense once we take into consideration his physical appearance. While it pains me to point this out, it’s entirely necessary in understanding Artie. Artie is a portly little fellow who somewhat resembles Radar O’Reilly on the hit TV series M.A.S.H. I have seen this phenomenon quite a bit on the Internet. Those who are the most bombastic, the most threatening, those who engage in the most swaggering and in the most bravado, and those who claim to be the “bravest” on the Internet, usually turn out to look a lot like Artie. My personal theory is that it’s an alter-ego issue. Men who share Artie’s physical traits were usually the victims of bullies in childhood. Now that Artie is grown up, he must redeem himself for having allowed bullies to push him around in school the way they did. He feels guilty and angry for not sticking up for himself then; and he has resolved that he will not allow it anymore. To compensate for being bullied, he has now become the bully. The Internet provides Artie with a faceless forum in which to swagger and threaten with impunity; in which to live his dream of being a real “macho-man,” completely without fear of the physical retribution he so dreaded as a child. In short, it gives him a chance to “get even” with his perceived superiors. What is so embarrassingly obvious is that someone who looks like Artie would never dare use words like “sissy boy,” “coward,” and “yellow” to another man’s face in a private room with no one else around—that would be far too harrowing an experience for him. But he is quite willing to do it from cyberspace where no harm can be done to him for spouting such nonsense. Artie Sippo is a very sick, very disturbed individual who is obviously still working through a good deal of baggage that he brought in from childhood. He is to be pitied, and I feel sorry for him. . . . Artie is portly little fellow, who bears an uncanny resemblance to . . . a well-known stuttering cartoon character (see his photo above).

How is that for uncharitable quack psychoanalysis? It is almost beyond rational comprehension, that this came from an educated man — indeed, a pastor — with at least one advanced degree in theology. But there it is. This is how low the man is willing to sink.

Another notable highlight in Eric’s Internet tenure was his National Enquirer-type spoof, primarily directed towards reactionary Catholic Robert Sungenis. Note the swipe at me on the bottom right (not my face there), and supposed association with CAI (a myth) and with Holocaust denial (an outrageous lie, of course). This was removed in fairly short order, but with neither a retraction nor an apology: public or private. Thanks to Internet Archive, we can preserve it in all its pathetic “glory”.

Svendsen mocked Blessed Pope John Paul II when he died, on his discussion board on 4-4-05, falsely claiming that he taught universalism and seriously questioning whether he went to heaven:

Don’t you know by now that the Evangelical way is to come to Christ by faith alone, give personal testimony that God and God alone saved you by his own grace and apart from any good thing you have done, insist in your testimony that you merely believed in Christ and trusted in him alone for your salvation, forsaking any good works as a means to your salvation—and then forget all that and confidently assert that the pope, who spouted Roman Catholic reliance on good works, baptism, the sacraments, Mary and the saints, and believed in a universalism, has “gone home to be with the Lord” and is now in heaven? What’s wrong with you anyway? It doesn’t have to be logical, as long as it sounds spiritual!

This is how anti-Catholics “argue,” folks. If their theological case is so superior (as they claim and brag about till the day is long), why is it that they have to resort to and soil themselves with such silly, juvenile behavior?

Eric Svendsen, like White, [the late] Steve Hays, “Turretinfan,” and other active online anti-Catholics, often exhibited a huge double standard, in objecting to our use of the (quite scholarly and common) term anti-Catholic, while at the same time using his own “anti” terms in the other direction. I documented his own rank hypocrisy on this score in June 2004 and again in June 2oo5.

To be fair, sometimes Eric Svendsen has been unfairly attacked by Catholics, too, and Catholic apologists. I defended him in the case of one attack that occurred on the Crowhill discussion board (run by Greg Krehbiel), in which it was denied that Eric believed in the Incarnation and the Trinity. It was said that he wasn’t a Christian at all.

And to his credit, Svendsen issued the following blanket apology, on 4-30-05 on his blog (“Towards Higher Ground”):

Waddling in the muck of Internet apologetics eventually takes its toll. I’m moving on to higher ground. While I’ll continue to point out the errors of errant theological systems (such as Roman Catholicism), as well as the mis-steps of certain evangelical leaders who seem to walk a bit too close to the edge of the heretical cliff, I am going to pass on the mud-wrestling challenges from Internet e-pologists. To that end, I have deleted a previous entry written in rash response to Dave Armstrong, to whom I apologize along with any others I may have mud-wrestled in the past. While I may continue to check in on their various blogs from time to time, any response to them will be a tempered and measured one.

I accepted the apology to me and apologized in turn for an error in characterizing certain of his remarks. But he never acknowledged my apology, and in the past had said — more than once — that my apologies are insincere.

It didn’t take long, unfortunately, for Svendsen to go against his newfound resolve. Exactly five days later he endorsed a fake blog that was purporting to be written by yours truly: a blog that engaged in wholesale lying, mockery, and smear tactics. He wrote on his discussion board:

[W]hile I don’t normally endorse anonymous blogs, the parady [sic] at the “I’m a Moron, But I Love Myself” blog captures the DA phenomenon exactly [smiley-face icon]. (Focusing on the Follies of Dave Armstrong, 5-4-05, 4:41 am)

I guess “narcissistic moron” is well within Svendsen’s self-imposed ethical restrictions as “a tempered and measured reply.” Wonders never cease. George Orwell’s “doublespeak” and “doublethink” live in all their glory, well past the year 1984! I observed on the same day:

Wow. So now we have observed the sad spectacle of one of the most well-known and influential Protestant anti-Catholic apologists endorsing a blatantly unethical (and probably illegal and legally actionable) attempt of using someone’s name under false pretenses on a fake blog, for the purpose of relentlessly lying about them and harming their reputation. What a world . . .

In the meantime, we’ll continue to chronicle the descent of mainstream anti-Catholic apologetics . . . into the abyss of wholesale smear campaigns and deliberate lying about those persons whom they theologically oppose.[the fake blog was removed by the end of the day on 4 May 2005]

The funniest incident between Eric and I came in January 2005. I had some technical problems for a few days, and he concluded that I had fled in terror from the Internet, cowering in fear from the prospect of daunting, invulnerable critiques from the likes of Bishop James White and himself. He wrote on his blog (original URL intact in the date):

It appears that direct and substantive critiques of his work have proved too much for Dave Armstrong. He has pulled the plug on his little blog experiment gone bad (Read). It seems Dr. White, in his critiques of Armstrong’s arguments that supposedly “confound Protestants,” ended up “confounding” Armstrong himself . . . Wasn’t it Dave Armstrong who criticized me for closing the comments section of my blog . . .? Wasn’t it Armstrong who criticized James White for not opening a comments section on his blog? . . . And now, as poetic justice would have it, Dave Armstrong is not merely closing the comments section of his apologetic blog–he’s getting out of the apologetic blog business entirely! Wow; bravo James [White]! If we had only known earlier that it would take only five consecutive exegetical critiques of Armstrong’s argument to shut him up (Tit 1:10-11), many would have done this a long time ago. Well done! : ) (1-4-05)

How ironic that here I am five years later standing over what may be the “grave” of his website and discussion board. Perhaps it is only a temporary glitch (or ditch, should I say?). I at least allow that to be a possibility (unlike his silly response when my blog went down for a day or two). In this instance, a fellow anti-Catholic and rapt admirer of Svendsen, James Swan has also announced their probable demise at the smear-fest site, Boor’s All, so it looks like it is indeed the case.

But (oddly enough) Svendsen had claimed he was done with Internet apologetics before: on 2 November 2005, on his blog. Perhaps this gives a clue why his sites are now down (possibly for good):

It’s Official

After more than a decade of being involved in Internet apologetics, I am packing it in. I guess I could blame it on the fifty-plus hours of work that I am putting in weekly. But it’s much more than that. My absence from this forum over the past few months (with only occasional exceptions) has given me a renewed sense of appreciation for the importance of doing ministry in and through the local church. The comparison between a focus on that kind of edifying ministry and a focus on constantly correcting the incorrigible and vitriolic pooling of ignorance that comes from self-styled “apologists,” each promoting his own version of a false gospel, is staggering; and it is something that no longer holds a modicum of attraction for me. I have recently been commissioned by the elders of my church to revamp the church’s educational program, and I am eager to get started on it. All the spare time I would otherwise have dedicated to Internet activity will be devoted to that task. I have enjoyed getting to know many, many fine people through this venue over the past decade, and I wish them well. The website, discussion forum, and blog will remain open, and will continue as always. It’s just that I won’t be contributing to it as I once did. I do not anticipate returning to this kind of venue in the future, though there is always that possibility. I would ask the friends of NTRMin.org to pray for me as I refocus on those things that are truly and biblically relevant.

Eric Svendsen has put out several anti-Catholic books with small publishers:

Evangelical Answers: A Critique of Current Roman Catholic Apologists (Reformation Press, 1999)

Who is My Mother? (Calvary Press: 2001)

Upon This Slippery Rock (Calvary Press: 2002)

Here are my own dialogues with and critiques of Eric Svendsen’s views:

Have Heterodox Catholics Overthrown Official Doctrine? (vs. Eric Svendsen, James White, Phillip Johnson, & Andrew Webb) [6-3-96]

Dialogue on the Logic of Catholic Infallible Authority [6-4-96]

Apostolic [Quasi-] Protestantism?: Dialogue with Eric Svendsen [6-26-96]

Debate on the Nature of the Church and Catholicism [7-5-96]

Dialogue on “Tradition” in the New Testament [1996]

Eric Svendsen: Catholics Raise Mary to the Holy Trinity [4-2-04]

Dave Armstrong Fan Club #2: Anti-Catholic Protestant Polemicist Eric “the Yellow” Svendsen [Facebook, 3-3-19]

Anti-Catholics everywhere are bemoaning Svendsen’s departure. They will be wearing black for the next week (perhaps mixed with sackcloth and ashes). I think they have it exactly backwards. Far from being a tragedy, this is great news for the anti-Catholic cause, since Svendsen was one of the most notorious examples of the “angry, irrational anti-Catholic.”

Hence, his Internet presence and his tirades and whoppers hindered the movement and caused many inquirers, no doubt, to look elsewhere, since they would have figured that the truth doesn’t need to be “defended” by such nefarious means. Eric was “bad PR,” in other words. His absence represents a net gain in that sense for anti-Catholicism.

But, rest assured, there are others to take his place and to exhibit the sneering, hissing mentality when any Catholic is within a country mile. So the proud tradition continues and Svendsen’s legacy is alive and well: perpetuated in his followers and his fan club. For those who want to continue to desecrate New Testament ethics and Christian unity: to trample upon the Golden Rule and the Royal Commandment alike, this is good news. For the rest of us, it is a disgrace.

Svendsen’s Real Clear Theology blog remains online: with the final post dated 12 April 2009. I may still refute some of his articles on his site, on boring days when I run out of stuff to do.

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Here are some further clarifying comments of mine from the original combox discussion:

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For the record, I do not myself claim that Svendsen cares nothing for the truth, is insincere, or that he preaches a false gospel (depends how “gospel” is defined, and I think I am going by the Bible there).

The gospel, for both Protestants and Catholics, is the incarnation, redeeming death on the cross, resurrection, and ascension of Jesus. It shouldn’t be a dividing point at all. We can agree on sola gratia and agree that semi-Pelagianism is heresy.

Defined correctly, Svendsen still holds to a saving gospel. He just gets particulars wrong of how that saving gospel is applied to us, and the more minute points. Many Calvinists make the mistake of collapsing the gospel to TULIP. But it doesn’t follow that they deny the gospel (the Good News) insofar as its actual definition, drawn from the Bible itself.

I think he has some false theology, based on false premises, and has often acted uncharitably, and has an anti-Catholic view that I consider intellectual suicide. But I don’t have to go this extra distance and start questioning the state of his soul.

I leave those kinds of ultra-uncharitable judgments to the anti-Catholics. I don’t think we gain anything by stooping down to that level of calumny of others. I would hope that we could be different and exercise as much charity as we can.

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I also have never gotten involved in the heos hou dispute [a huge squabble with several Catholics lambasting Svendsen’s knowledge of Greek]. I’m strictly neutral. I figure that he is probably wrong — wouldn’t be a bit surprised if he was –, but I myself took no stand and it formed no part of my critique of him.

I also thought some of the criticisms of him during that went over the top, along the lines of what I am criticizing above.

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Photo credit: Eric Svendsen’s book Evangelical Answers, from the Amazon book page.

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Summary: Eric Svendsen was once the second most active and influential anti-Catholic Protestant polemicist online, after James White. But in 2010 he disappeared from the Net.

2022-08-05T13:20:57-04:00

[originally posted on my blog on 20 April 2008. See my original post, “Reformation” Theft of Thousands of Catholic Churches (4-12-08). This article was a response to critiques of that earlier article]

I wrote:

It’s been the standard response through the years of Protestants to play up and grossly exaggerate the sins of the Catholic Church to justify the sins of the Reformers.

I wasn’t “lambasting” the Reformers per se here, but rather, historical revisionism (“standard response through the years”) of Protestants, up to the present period.

At the same time, anti-Catholic Protestants so often want to rail about historic Catholic sins that no one denies. I don’t care if they do, one way or the other; let them rail against sin. I have no problem with it. Yet if anyone dares make a similar analysis of Protestant scandals and sins, we hear cries of “foul.” This is rather common (almost a knee-jerk reaction) among those who set out to defend historic Protestantism, if I do say so.

I would like to suggest to those who love to highlight historic Catholic sins, and educate folks about them, to not be so reticent about doing the same regarding Protestant historic sins. No one is gonna buy the scenario that only one side is guilty of these. As for the “Reformers” themselves playing up Catholic sin, there is simply no question about this. Martin Luther, in particular, is notorious for these sins of bearing false witness. Examples are innumerable, but here are just a few examples for good measure:

[T]he popes . . . are bitter enemies of the church . . . Pope, cardinals, bishops, not a soul of them has read the Bible; ’tis a book unknown to them. (#429, p. 243)

The pope and his crew are mere worshippers of idols, and servants of the devil. (#446, p. 249) (Table-Talk, translated by William Hazlitt, Philadelphia: The Lutheran Publication Society: n.d.)

The sum of it all is that pope, devil, and his church hate the estate of matrimony, as Daniel says [17:37]; therefore he wants to bring it into such disgrace that a married man cannot fill a priest’s office. That is as much as to say that marriage is harlotry, sin, impure, and rejected by God; and although they say, at the same time, that it is holy and a sacrament, that is a lie of their false hearts, for if they seriously considered it holy, and a sacrament, they would not forbid the priests to marry. Because they do forbid them, they must consider it unclean, and a sin, as they plainly say . . .

[T]he noises made by monks and nuns and priests are not prayers or praises to God. They do not understand it and learn nothing from it; they do it like hard labor, for the belly’s sake, and seek thereby no improvement of life, no progress in holiness, no doing of God’s will. (On the Councils and the Churches [1539], Part II. From: Works of Martin Luther, Philadelphia: A.J. Holman Co. & The Castle Press, 1931, Vol. 5. Translation by Charles M. Jacobs)

See also:

Medieval Catholic Corruption: Main Cause of Protestant Revolt? [6-2-03; revised slightly: 1-20-04; 10-10-17]

Luther Film (2003): Detailed Catholic Critique [10-28-03; abridged with revised links on 3-6-17]

Myths and Facts Regarding Tetzel and Indulgences [11-25-16; published in Catholic Herald]

Critique of Ten Exaggerated Claims of the “Reformation” [10-31-17; its 500th anniversary date]

Martin Luther: “Our manner of life is as evil as is that of the papists” [12-29-07]

Luther on Early Lutherans: “Ingrates” Who Deserve God’s “Wrath” [2-28-10]

Luther’s Disgust Over Protestant Sectarianism and Radical Heresies [3-1-10; abridged and published in the National Catholic Register: 9-8-17]

Luther on Early Lutheran Degeneracy & Bad Witness [3-2-10]

Was Luther in His Old Age in Agony & Bitter About Lutheranism? [3-3-10]

Luther’s “Agony” Over Sectarianism (vs. a Lutheran) [3-10-10]

Luther: Monks & Priests More “Earnest” Than Lutherans [11-10-11]

Were Vernacular Bibles Unknown Before Luther? (Luther’s Dubious Claims About the Supposed Utter Obscurity of the Bible Before His Translation) [6-15-11]

It’s equally obvious and manifest that Thomas Cromwell and his ilk in the English “Reformation” offered similar ridiculous exaggerations of what was going on in the monasteries, as a pretense to seize them for their own (and the king’s) enrichment, as I documented in my paper. Many historians can be produced to back this up. This isn’t just “militant Catholic apologetics.” It’s historical fact.

No one (last of all, myself) denies that bad things were done by many Catholics. It doesn’t follow from this that Catholic Church properties were not Catholic, and that Protestants were perfectly justified to seize them. That makes no sense. Say, for example, that a church was built with funds obtained by sinful means, amounting to 38% of the total cost of the building. Okay, now the Protestant ragtag armies of righteousness and noble virtue come to steal this same property. But do the Protestants distribute 38% of its value to the Catholic parishioners? Of course not. Not a chance. That ain’t part of the plan. All of those ignorant people are idolaters and don’t deserve anything but to be banished from the territory.

Even Luther noted and decried the greed of some of the folks who “appropriated” property (with his usual naivete in denying that his own words played any role in bringing about such theft in the first place). So Protestants can rant and rave about corruption in building projects while under Catholic auspices, but it doesn’t justify Protestant theft and plunder: not in the least. This is elementary ethics: Christian Morality 0101. And by the same token, I have every “right” to highlight Protestant sins that virtually no one has ever heard about at all. Why is that so objectionable?

It’s an indisputable fact, especially in England, that the monasteries served as a vast network of social support for the peasants. This was all destroyed in the space of a year or less, and nothing replaced it. That’s not just my little old opinion: it is historiographical consensus. It was a similar situation in Germany, which is a major reason why the Peasants’ War took place. Once the bishops were replaced by the greedy princes (that Melanchthon so despised), the peasants were far worse off than before. This is part of the huge wickedness of the theft on a grand scale. The lives of many thousands of people were made a lot more miserable than before.

Evil bishops must be replaced with the pure and saintly Henry VIII and selfless German princes? That wasn’t the will of the English people, since the vast majority of them remained Catholic (even in 1558 when Elizabeth continued the revolution, even deepening it). Melanchthon realized the huge mistake of fleeing to princes rather than retaining the episcopacy. He regretted it to the end of his life.
I cited Erasmus in my paper, right at the beginning:

I greatly wonder, my dear Jonas, what god has stirred up the heart of Luther, in so far as he assails with such license of pen the Roman pontiff, all the universities, philosophy, and the mendicant orders . . .

Perhaps there were some who out of honest zeal favored calling the orders and princes of the Church to better things. But I do not know if they are those who under this pretext covet the wealth of the churchmen. I judge nothing to be more wicked and destructive of public tranquility than this . . . This certainly is a fine turn of affairs, if property is wickedly taken away from priests so that soldiers may make use of it in worse fashion; and the latter squander their own wealth, and sometimes that of others, so that no one benefits. (in Christian Humanism and the Reformation [selections from Erasmus], edited and translated by John C. Olin, New York: Harper & Row, 1965, 152, 157-159, 161-163; Letter to Jodocus Jonas, from Louvain, May 10, 1521)

Erasmus also wrote:

It is part of my unhappy fate, that my old age has fallen on these evil times when quarrels and riots prevail everywhere. . . .

This new gospel is producing a new set of men so impudent, hypocritical, and abusive, such liars and sycophants, who agree neither with one another nor with anybody else, so universally offensive and seditious, such madmen and ranters, and in short so utterly distasteful to me that if I knew of any city in which I should be free from them, I would remove there at once. (in Philip Schaff, The History of the Christian Church, Volume VII: History of Modern Christianity, Chapter IV, section 71, New York: Charles Scribner’s Sons, 1910)

Luther responded to Erasmus with his usual detached rationality and accuracy:

Erasmus of Rotterdam is the vilest miscreant that ever disgraced the earth . . . He is a very Caiaphas. (Table-Talk, translated by William Hazlitt, Philadelphia: The Lutheran Publication Society: n.d., #667, 350-351)

Shame upon thee, accursed wretch! . . . Whenever I pray, I pray a curse upon Erasmus. (Ibid., #668, 351)

Erasmus was poisoned at Rome and at Venice with epicurean doctrines. He extols the Arians more highly than the Papists . . . he died like an epicurean, without any one comfort of God. (Ibid., #675, 355)

This I do leave behind me as my will and testament . . . I hold Erasmus of Rotterdam to be Christ’s most bitter enemy . . . the enemy to true religion, the open adversary of Christ, the complete and faithful picture and image of Epicurus and of Lucian. (Ibid., #676, 355)

Erasmus writes nothing in which he does not show the impotence of his mind or rather the pains of the wounds he has received. I despise him, nor shall I honor the fellow by arguing with him any more . . . In future I shall only refer to him as some alien, rather condemning than refuting his ideas. He is a light-minded man, mocking all religion as his dear Lucian does, and serious about nothing but calumny and slander. (Letter to Montanus About Erasmus, May 28, 1529; from Preserved Smith, Letters of Martin Luther, New York: Houghton Mifflin Co., 1911, 211)

[see many examples of the Luther-Erasmus debates: Erasmus vs. Luther Disputes Documented (3-21-16) ]

Protestants love to cite Erasmus when he talks about Catholic corruptions and vices, but not when he turns his critique on Luther and the “Reformation.” Why the double standard? What is so difficult about admitting and openly acknowledging (and detesting) Protestant sin? We have no problem about admitting ours. This is a distressingly common hypocrisy in Protestant polemics that I will expose until the day I die.

It’s argued that the “Reformation” was God’s judgment against Catholic sins. That scenario is entirely possible (in a merely hypothetical sense). The only problem is that such agents of so-called “reformation” do not automatically become righteous. God used them for His plans, just like He uses the devil (in the case of Job, for example). But no one would assert that the devil became righteous simply because He was a pawn in God’s plan. Nebuchadnezzar was judged by God, after he was used as his agent of judgment against Israel. The Assyrian invasions involved nations warring against each other. In the “Reformation,” however, the Protestants were warring against fellow Christians. That is the sin of schism.

The people in England were, for the most part, perfectly content with the Church and all the social and spiritual benefits of the monasteries. So it has to be asserted against fact that the corruption was so great and intense that this would qualify as a plausible scenario for God’s judgment, with the bloodthirsty tyrant and Clintonian adulterer Henry VIII as God’s agent. St. Thomas More and St. John Fisher and St. Edmund Campion and the other hundreds of martyrs who were butchered were the “bad guys” being judged. Perhaps we can extend this hypothetical to the Russian Revolution too (the historical event that most resembles the English “Reformation”)? The Russian Orthodox Church and the czars were so corrupt that God had to enlist Lenin as His agent to come butcher priests and bishops and steal all the Orthodox churches? Makes about as much sense . . .

The monasteries in England were the charitable system of England at the time. Henry VIII didn’t give a damn about the fate of the peasants after all these properties were stolen. Cobbett (no Catholic) writes at the greatest length about these things. The Anglicans butchered at least 1375 innocent people, as I have documented. This is the sort of mentality that caused Luther to chuckle at the executions of More and Fisher, and wish that there were more kings who could murder saints as Henry VIII had done.

The “Reformers” stole thousands of Catholic properties. Henry and Elizabeth and other Protestant kings tortured and murdered well over 1300 pious Catholics. Henry was an adulterer. Luther sanctioned adultery in Philip of Hesse’s case, and said polygamy was not forbidden in the Bible. The Protestants watered down the criteria for divorce, and started allowing it, and removed matrimony as a sacrament. Henry VIII had to massively lie about the monasteries in order to seize them. He lied to the leaders of the massive Catholic social uprising, known as the Pilgrimage of Grace about beneficial promises, and had them all summarily executed. Luther had to massively lie about Catholic teachings and practices, and spread propaganda far and wide (including vulgar woodcuts) in order for his movement to succeed at all.

It is preciously ironic and pathetic that Protestants blow way out of proportion the abuses of indulgences and rant and rave about how this was exploiting poor people, then they turn around and try to justify the theft of thousands of Catholic churches and monasteries and the removal of a vast network of social services for the poor, as either justifiable outright or an instance of judgment analogous to Assyria or Babylonia judging idol-ridden ancient Israel. They decry theft in one instance and then defend and rationalize a theft a hundred or a thousand times greater magnitude than the first sin.

As we can see, every sin that is attributed to ancient Israel in this judgment prophecy is far more true of the “Reformers” than of the Catholic Church.

The monks of the English monasteries were all godless? This is the false claim made. I guess that justifies stealing their properties and ripping out their intestines and hearts while they are still alive, and chopping off their limbs and putting them up on city gates. Makes perfect sense to me. If they are “godless” then anything whatever can be done to them. They essentially become demons to be pitilessly slaughtered.

Those who have the audacity (or ignorance) to defend the outrages and hellish brutalities of the English “Reformation” act as if Bede would be right in league with Cromwell and Henry, standing there while Fisher and More were beheaded, etc. This is as ridiculous as it is outrageous. Nothing like this had ever happened, since the time of the pagan Viking pillaging, or Genghis Khan or the ancient Roman persecutions. And this had the added hypocrisy of Christians stealing from and slaughtering other Christians. Too often, however, Protestants will try to excuse and explain away absolutely anything that happened as part of their endlessly glorified and whitewashed “Reformation”.

Yet it doesn’t cost Protestants anything to admit historical wrongs. They don’t have to cease believing what they do in good faith, based on these factors alone. No Catholic is telling Protestants that they must become Catholics simply because Protestantism is guilty of institutionalized sin in the past. And we only have greater respect for those Protestants who freely admit that there were plenty of sins on both sides, rather than continue the pretense that Catholics were supposedly exponentially more sinful than Protestants.

The pretentious double standard is the reason why I write these sorts of papers: not as a result of any supposed desire to “bash” Protestants and make them out to be singularly wicked. I say over and over that sinfulness is universally to be found. That’s why we Christians believe in original sin: the most obviously demonstrable notion that one can find in the Bible.

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Practical Matters: Perhaps some of my 4,000+ free online articles (the most comprehensive “one-stop” Catholic apologetics site) or fifty books have helped you (by God’s grace) to decide to become Catholic or to return to the Church, or better understand some doctrines and why we believe them.
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Or you may believe my work is worthy to support for the purpose of apologetics and evangelism in general. If so, please seriously consider a much-needed financial contribution. I’m always in need of more funds: especially monthly support. “The laborer is worthy of his wages” (1 Tim 5:18, NKJV). 1 December 2021 was my 20th anniversary as a full-time Catholic apologist, and February 2022 marked the 25th anniversary of my blog.
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PayPal donations are the easiest: just send to my email address: [email protected]. You’ll see the term “Catholic Used Book Service”, which is my old side-business. To learn about the different methods of contributing, including 100% tax deduction, etc., see my page: About Catholic Apologist Dave Armstrong / Donation InformationThanks a million from the bottom of my heart!
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Photo credit: Whitby Abbey in in North Yorkshire, England, had been a great center of learning since 657 AD. King Henry VIII destroyed it in 1540 and confiscated all its possessions. Photo by Ackers72 (4-12-09) [Wikimedia Commons / Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike 3.0 Unported license]
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Summary: I decry the double standard whereby outrageous wholesale “Reformation” anti-Catholic theft is winked at, while old Catholic sins are overwhelmingly emphasized.

 


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