2016-12-04T17:53:00-04:00

Explosion

BLU-82 Daisy Cutter Fireball [public domain / Wikimedia Commons]

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Original title: “Man-Centered” Sacramentalism: The Remarkable Incoherence of James White: How Can Martin Luther and St. Augustine Be Christians According to His Definition?

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(11-26-03)

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Bishop James White (one of the most vociferous critics of Catholicism today) and I engaged in a vigorous postal exchange in 1995. I have his letters in my possession, and the “debate” has been posted on my website for many years, with the good bishop’s permission. In it, he stated:

If you feel a communion that replaces the grace of God with sacraments, mediators, and merit, can be properly called “Christian,” then please go ahead and use the phrase. But please understand that if a person shares the perspective of the epistle to the churches of Galatia they will have to hold to a different understanding, and hence may not be as quick to use the term “Christian” of such a person.(4-6-95, p. 2 and 5-4-95, p. 2)

I pointed out (surely he was aware, as a student of the history of theology) that Martin Luther believed in baptismal regeneration and the Real Presence in the Eucharist. I set out to prove — by means of an elaborate but very solid chain of logical deductive reasoning, using White’s own remarks as a premise — that by White’s own stated reasoning, Luther would not be a Christian.

If a communion that supposedly “replaces” grace with sacraments cannot properly call itself Christian, then it seems to me that a person who does the same (since White assumes a “replacement” is occurring rather than an appropriation or application of grace through sacraments) should also not be considered a Christian. Or if they are, then Catholicism should be deemed Christian as well. But that is assuming logical consistency and a sensible, coherent perspective on these matters. Much of the thrust of my argument in my long debate with Bishop White in 1995 was designed to show that his position is not internally consistent and coherent. A close analysis of the present topic demonstrates this, I think, very clearly.

The logical outcome of White’s false premise produces the absurd state of affairs of a non-Christian (who didn’t even comprehend God’s grace) bringing back into practice the gospel and true Christianity (as he and his followers often claimed). Elsewhere in the debate, I proved how (logically), White’s arguments would also mean that C.S. Lewis, Dietrich Bonhoeffer, John Wesley, and Philip Melanchthon were not Christians, either.

Basically, all non-Calvinists would be (doctrinally) excluded from confessing, creedal, or orthodox Christianity if one consistently applied Bishop White’s criteria, which is why he stated in the same exchange that I was never “truly a Protestant to begin with” because I was an Arminian evangelical Protestant (1977-1991) who (as I noted in my conversion story in Surprised by Truth) had always rejected the Calvinist distinctives of double predestination and total depravity.

The men above (Anglicans and Lutherans) also rejected these doctrines; ergo, they, too, were not Protestants and therefore, not Christians (by White’sreasoning; not mine; I admire Wesley and Bonhoeffer very much and Lewis has long been my favorite Christian writer). He has never replied to my reductio ad absurdum. In the next year after our debate, Bishop White was still emphasizing this animus against sacramentalism, in his book against Catholicism, objecting to the fact that:

. . . salvation is mediated through the Sacraments of the Church.. . . God’s grace is said to be channeled through the Sacraments . . . .

(White, 128-129, 179)

This is precisely what Luther believed:

Little children . . . are free in every way, secure and saved solely through the glory of their baptism . . . Through the prayer of the believing church which presents it, . . . the infant is changed, cleansed, and renewed by inpoured faith. Nor should I doubt that even a godless adult could be changed, in any of the sacraments, if the same church prayed for and presented him, as we read of the paralytic in the Gospel, who was healed through the faith of others (Mark 2:3-12). I should be ready to admit that in this sense the sacraments of the New Law are efficacious in conferring grace, not only to those who do not, but even to those who do most obstinately present an obstacle.(The Babylonian Captivity of the Church, 1520, in Steinhauser, 197)

Expressed in the simplest form, the power, the effect, the benefit, the fruit and the purpose of baptism is to save. No one is baptized that he may become a prince, but, as the words declare [of Mark 16:16], that he may be saved. But to be saved, we know very well, is to be delivered from sin, death, and Satan, and to enter Christ’s kingdom and live forever with him . . . Through the Word, baptism receives the power to become the washing of regeneration, as St. Paul calls it in Titus 3:5 . . . Faith clings to the water and believes it to be baptism which effects pure salvation and life . . .

When sin and conscience oppress us . . . you may say: It is a fact that I am baptized, but, being baptized, I have the promise that I shall be saved and obtain eternal life for both soul and body . . . Hence, no greater jewel can adorn our body or soul than baptism; for through it perfect holiness and salvation become accessible to us . . .

(Large Catechism, 1529, sections 223-224, 230, pp. 162, 165)

Luther comments on John 3:5:

Christ says clearly and concisely that the birth referred to here must take place through water and the Holy Spirit. This new birth is Baptism . . . And begone with everyone who refuses to accept this doctrine!

. . . we reply, “Of course, they believed that John purified by his Baptism; for by means of it he joined you to Christ.” Thus one is saved according to the way in which Christ instructed Nicodemus (John 3:5)

(Sermons on the Gospel of St. John, Chapters 1-4, 1540; in LW, 22, 287-288, 429)

Note the terms that Luther uses to describe what baptism does (emphases added). His view is exactly the sort of one that James White condemned above:

Little children . . . are free in every way, secure and saved solely through the glory of their baptism.. . . the sacraments of the New Law are efficacious in conferring grace . . .

. . . the power, the effect, the benefit, the fruit and the purpose of baptism is to save.

. . . baptism receives the power to become the washing of regeneration.

. . . baptism which effects pure salvation and life . . .

. . . being baptized, I have the promise that I shall be saved and obtain eternal life

. . . baptism; . . . through it perfect holiness and salvation become accessible to us …

[Baptism gives] the entire Christ and the Holy Spirit with his gifts. [see below]

Martin Luther holds an even stronger view than the Catholic one on baptism: in his view the grace of baptism cannot be lost:

Thus the papists have attacked our position and declared that anyone who falls into sin after his Baptism must undergo a distinct type of purification.(Sermons on the Gospel of St. John, Chapters 1-4, 1540; in LW, 22, 429-430)

Describing Luther’s view on baptism, the expert on his theology, Paul Althaus, citing Luther, states:

Through baptism, “I am promised that I shall be saved and have eternal life, both in body and in soul.” Baptism does not give a particular grace, not only a part of salvation, but simply the entire grace of God, “the entire Christ and the Holy Spirit with his gifts.” The total gift of baptism is meaningful throughout the Christian’s life and remains constantly valid until he enters into eternity. He lives from no other grace than from that promised and conveyed to him through baptism, and he never needs new grace.(Althaus, 353-354)

John Wesley, the founder of Methodism, but actually a lifelong Anglican (reasoning much like St. Augustine often does) accepts the notion of baptism being a seal, without denying that it is at the same time a means or cause of regeneration. He doesn’t dichotomize as Calvin does, but thinks in far more biblically-oriented terms. Hence he comments in his Notes on the Bible, on John 3:5, Acts 22:16, Titus 3:5, and 1 Peter 3:21:

Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit – Except he experience that great inward change by the Spirit, and be baptized (wherever baptism can be had) as the outward sign and means of it.Baptism administered to real penitents, is both a means and seal of pardon. Nor did God ordinarily in the primitive Church bestow this on any, unless through this means.

. . . Sanctification, expressed by the laver of regeneration, (that is, baptism, the thing signified, as well as the outward sign,) . . .

. . . through the water of baptism we are saved from the sin which overwhelms the world as a flood: not, indeed, the bare outward sign, but the inward grace . . .

Elsewhere Wesley makes this even more clear:

. . . there is a justification conveyed to us in our baptism, or, properly, this state is then begun.(The Principles of a Methodist Farther Explained, 1746; in Lindstrom, 106-107)

. . . the ordinary instrument of our justification.

(A Treatise on Baptism, 1758; in Lindstrom, 107)

Luther holds the same kind of view regarding the Eucharist:

Even if I followed the Karlstadtian teaching and preached the remembrance and knowledge of Christ with such passion and seriousness that I sweated blood and became feverish, it would be of no avail and all in vain. For it would be pure work and commandment, but no gift or Word of God offered and given to me in the body and blood of Christ . . .For whoever so receives the cup as to receive the blood of Christ which is shed for us, he receives the new testament, that is, the forgiveness of sins and eternal life.

(Against the Heavenly Prophets in the Matter of Images and Sacraments, 1525; LW, 40, 213, 217)

But for some reason, Bishop White (as far as I know) is most reluctant to argue that Martin Luther and John Wesley were not Christians, on the basis of believing the same thing that causes him to conclude that Catholicism is not a Christian belief-system. Once in a while it is good to point out anomalies like this.

Likewise, we find St. Augustine (whom James White calls “great” and “the great bishop of Hippo” in his book: pp. 122-123) espousing these ideas which White thinks are hostile to sola gratia and a biblical, Christian worldview:

Just as Judas to whom the Lord handed a morsel, furnished in himself a place for the devil, not be receiving something wicked but by receiving it wickedly, so too anyone who receives the sacrament of the Lord unworthily does not, because he himself is wicked, cause the Sacrament to be wicked, or bring it about that he receives nothing because he does not receive it unto salvation. For it is the Body of the Lord and the Blood of the Lord even in those to whom the Apostle said: “whoever eats and drinks unworthily, eats and drinks judgment to himself.”(Baptism, 5, 8, 9; in Jurgens, III, 68)

Thus St. Augustine reveals that he, too, is not a Christian (i.e., by consistently applying one of White’s thoroughly wrongheaded but dogmatically-stated criteria), since he believes that a “sacrament” can be received “unto salvation.” White praises St. Augustine in various places on his website:

The old truth that Calvin preached, that Augustine preached, that Paul preached . . . [citing Charles Spurgeon in agreement][Dave] Hunt vociferously and unfairly attacks the character of both Augustine and Calvin, who in successive ages were the great exponents of the system of grace . . .

(“Dave Hunt vs. Charles Haddon Spurgeon”)

It does not seem that any discussion of ancient theology can be pursued without invoking the great name of Augustine. But surely by now Roman controversialists should be aware that Augustine is no friend of their cause.

(“Whitewashing the History of the Church”)

Certain men throughout the history of the Christian church capture the imagination. Paul, Augustine, Wycliffe, Hus, Luther, Calvin, Zwingli – each holds the possibility of fascinating reflection and thought.

(“The Sovereign God, the Grace of Christ, and Sinful Man: A Brief Inquiry into the Theology of Jonathan Edwards”)

It’s true that the His Eminence, Right Reverend Bishop White admits St. Augustine was no Protestant, but I’ve yet to see him deny that he was a Christian. White has also reiterated on his website his seeming belief that sacramentalism is not only unbiblical but unChristian altogether:

This . . . demonstrates with clarity the vast differences between the God-centered gospel of Scripture and the man-centered sacramentalism of the Roman system.(“An In Channel Debate on Purgatory”)

In God’s providential wisdom, we live in a time when the church must struggle against false teaching and false teachers (Acts 20:24ff). Specifically, the truth of God’s sovereign grace is attacked by Roman Catholicism, and its man-centered sacramentalism.

(“1 Cor 3:10-15: Exegesis and Rebuttal of Rom,an Catholic Misuse”)

Man’s religions are invariably anthropocentric, always including at their very heart various rites and rituals (in Roman Catholicism, sacraments) designed to control God and His power, removing from Him His sovereign freedom and placing the ultimate power of salvation squarely in the hands of man. This is where biblical Christianity differs from the religions of men, including Roman Catholicism . . .

(“An Excellent Example of Sola Ecclesia: John 6 and Exegesis”)

I continue to pray that God will be merciful in showing you all the power of His grace, the truth of His gospel . . . my God is not dependent upon the actions or sacraments of men . . .

(“The Mass Card”)

. . . the biblical gospel over against Rome’s system of sacraments . . .

(“Key, Keys, What’s the Difference?: An Apologist for ‘Catholic Apologetics International’ Provides Some Interesting Responses to Objections to Roman Catholic Claims”)

So it is clear that Bishop White doesn’t like sacraments at all (putting him at great odds also with Martin Luther) but he manages to like St. Augustine quite a bit (ranking him with great Christian figures such as Calvin, St. Paul, Jonathan Edwards, etc.). Yet St. Augustine was an enthusiastic advocate of the very “man-centered” Catholic system of sacramentalism that James White insists is utterly contrary to “God’s sovereign grace,” the gospel, the Bible, mom, apple pie, baseball, and who knows what else.

Despite this, St. Augustine inexplicably remains, for White, one of the “great exponents of the system of grace” and even “no friend” of the Catholic apologetic “cause.” How does he fit all this together in his head (assuming that he wishes to do so consistently)? It’s very difficult to comprehend. Here are some of St. Augustine’s many relevant utterances on the topic of sacramentalism (emphases added):

It is this one Spirit who makes it possible for an infant to be regenerated through the agency of another’s will when that infant is brought to Baptism . . . The water, therefore, manifesting exteriorly the benefit of grace, both regenerate in one Christ that man who was generated in one Adam.(Letter to Bishop Boniface, 98, 2; A.D. 408; in Jurgens, III, 4)

The Sacraments of the New Testament give salvation . . .

(Explanations of the Psalms, 73, 2; A.D. 418; in Jurgens, III, 19)

. . . God does not forgive sins except to the baptized.

(Sermon to Catechumens, on the Creed, 7, 15; c. 395; in Jurgens, III, 35)

. . . the grace of Baptism . . .

(Baptism, 1, 12, 20; 400; in Jurgens, III, 66)

It is an excellent thing that the Punic Christians call Baptism itself nothing else but salvation, and the Sacrament of Christ’s Body nothing else but life. Whence does this derive, except from an ancient and, as I suppose, apostolic tradition, by which the Churches of Christ hold inherently that without Baptism and participation at the table of the Lord it is impossible for any man to attain either to the kingdom of God or to salvation and life eternal? This is the witness of Scripture too.

The Sacrament of Baptism is most assuredly the Sacrament of regeneration.

. . . there is a full remission of sins in Baptism.

(Forgiveness and the Just Deserts of Sins, and the Baptism of Infants, 1, 24, 34 / 2, 27, 43 /2, 28, 46; 412; in Jurgens, III, 91-93)

With the exception of the gift of Baptism, which is given against original sin, so that what was brought by generation might be taken away by regeneration, — though it also takes away actual sins, such as have ever been committed in thought, word, or deed . . . this great indulgence whereby man’s restoration begins and in which all his guilt, both original and actual, is removed . . .

(Enchiridion of Faith, Hope, and Love, 17, 64; 421; in Jurgens, III, 149)

Christ was carried in His own hands, when, referring to His own Body, He said “This is My Body.”

He took flesh from the flesh of Mary. He walked here in the same flesh, and gave us the same flesh to be eaten unto salvation. But no one eats that flesh unless first he adores it . . . and not only do we not sin by adoring, we do sin by not adoring.

(Explanations of the Psalms, 33, 1, 10 / 98, 9; A.D. 418; in Jurgens, III, 20)

That Bread which you see on the altar, having been sanctified by the word of God is the Body of Christ.

Not all bread, but only that which receives the blessing of Christ, becomes Christ’s body.

What you see is the bread and the chalice . . . But what your faith obliges you to accept is that the bread is the Body of Christ and the chalice the Blood of Christ.

(Sermons, 227 / 234 / 272, 2; in Jurgens, III, 30-32)

How can Luther be the great founder of Protestantism (i.e., true Christianity, in White’s mindset) and St. Augustine the great exponent of “grace” while both believed things with regard to sacramentalism that cause White to condemn (out of the other side of his mouth) as non-Christian the Catholic Church and itssacramental theology? Luther’s conception of baptismal regeneration even goes further than the Catholic view.

St. Augustine believed in baptismal regeneration (calling it the cause of regeneration, grace, salvation, forgiveness, life, life eternal, and the full remission of sins), and (strongly) in the Real Presence in the Eucharist, yet James White can nevertheless describe him as “great,” in the same league with Calvin and the Apostle Paul, and a “great exponent” (with Calvin) “of the system of grace.” How can this be?, since when Catholics believe the same thing, we get described by him as follows:

1. A communion that cannot “be properly called Christian“, because it “replaces the grace of God with sacraments, mediators, and merit.”2. “. . . man-centered sacramentalism of the Roman system,” as opposed to “the God-centered gospel of Scripture.”

3. A system that attacks “the truth of God’s sovereign grace.”

4. A system which uses “sacraments” which are “designed to control God and His power, removing from Him His sovereign freedom and placing the ultimate power of salvation squarely in the hands of man.”

5. “. . . religion[s] of men” which is “anthropocentric” and differs from “biblical Christianity.”

6. A system opposed to “the power of His grace, the truth of His gospel.”

7. “. . . system of sacraments” over against “the biblical gospel.”

Perhaps Bishop White can explain how all these discordant opinions can go together. I don’t have a clue (not on an intellectual plane that presupposes the validity of deductive, classical logic), unless it is simply yet another case of undue hostility against the Catholic Church clouding the reasoning of an otherwise fairly cogent and able mind.

I’ve always considered anti-Catholicism (the belief that Catholicism is not a Christian religion) intellectual suicide (that is, when it is held by a Protestant). In other words, I think it is logically, theologically, and historically impossible to hold that Protestantism is Christian while Catholicism is not. The above examples provide abundant proof for why I think this is so. People like James White want to have their cake and eat it too: St. Augustine can be a Catholic (which he really was) but also a great “Christian” (read, “proto-Protestant”) man. He can be a “great exponent of grace” but scarcely a Christian at all (following through with White’s own criteria) when we look at his sacramentology (and many other things such as his views on purgatory, prayers for the dead, Bible and Tradition, etc.).

Even Martin Luther plainly fails James White’s “quiz” of what it takes to be a good “biblical” Christian. But both get a pass because it looks bad to go after Luther and St. Augustine (and even — on a lesser scale — a man like John Wesley). It’s lousy public relations and counter-productive to boot. People will start getting suspicious and glaring logical ludicrosities such as the ones shown above will be pointed out. That’s embarrassing and too much work, and no one needs that hassle. It is easier to play games with history and theology and words and pretend that people were what they clearly weren’t. But that in turn results in nonsense like the above scenario.

Perhaps the crowning irony of all this is what Luther would certainly have thought of James White and his views, were he to return and be here today. We have very good reason to believe that he would have a more favorable opinion of Catholics such as myself than he would of what he called a “sacramentarian” like White. Luther wrote, for example:

I have often enough asserted that I do not argue whether the wine remains wine or not. It is enough for me that Christ’s blood is present; let it be with the wine as God wills. Before I would drink mere wine with the Enthusiasts, I would rather have pure blood with the Pope.(Early 1520s; in Althaus, 376; LW, 37, 317)

Luther called fellow Protestants Zwingli, Karlstadt, Oecolampadius, and Caspar Schwenkfeld (all men who accepted a symbolic Eucharist) – and by implication those who believe as they do – “fanatics and enemies of the sacrament,” men who are guilty of “blasphemies and deceitful heresy,” “loathsome fanatics,” “murderers of souls,” who “possess a bedeviled, thoroughly bedeviled, hyper-bedeviled heart and lying tongue,” and who “have incurred their penalty and are committing ‘sin which is mortal’,” “blasphemers and enemies of Christ,” and “God’s and our condemned enemies.” He described Zwingli as a “full-blown heathen,” and wrote: “I am certain that Zwingli, as his last book testifies, died in a great many sins and in blasphemy of God.”

(see: Brief Confession Concerning the Holy Sacrament, September 1544; LW, 38, 287-288, 290-291, 296, 302-303, 316)

We know that Luther, in his Commentary on the 82nd Psalm (1830) advocated the death penalty for Anabaptists. These were people who didn’t believe in infant baptism and who practiced adult baptism (just as Bishop White believes, as a Baptist). This is backed up by Roland Bainton, author of the most well-known biography of Luther, Here I Stand:

In 1530 Luther advanced the view that two offences should be penalized even with death, namely sedition and blasphemy . . . Luther construed mere abstention from public office and military service as sedition and a rejection of an article of the Apostles’ Creed as blasphemy. In a memorandum of 1531, composed by Melanchthon and signed by Luther, a rejection of the ministerial office was described as insufferable blasphemy, and the disintegration of the Church as sedition against the ecclesiastical order. In a memorandum of 1536, again composed by Melanchthon and signed by Luther, the distinction between the peaceful and the revolutionary Anabaptists was obliterated.(Bainton, 295)

Historian Preserved Smith writes about this aspect of Luther and the early Lutherans:

All persons save priests were forbidden by the Elector John of Saxony to preach or baptize, a measure aimed at the Anabaptists. In the same year, under this law, twelve men and one woman were put to death, and such executions were repeated several times in the following years, e.g., in 1530, 1532, and 1538. In the year 1529 came the terrible imperial law, passed by an alliance of Catholics and Lutherans at the Diet of Spires [from which first came the term Protestant], condemning all Anabaptists to death, and interpreted to cover cases of simple heresy in which no breath of sedition mingled. A regular inquisition was set up in Saxony, with Melanchthon on the bench, and under it many persons were punished, some with death, some with life imprisonment, and some with exile.While Luther took no active part in these proceedings, and on several occasions gave the opinion that exile was the only proper punishment, he also, at other times, justified persecution on the ground that he was suppressing not heresy but blasphemy . . .

Melanchthon . . . reckoned the denial of infant baptism, or of original sin, and the opinion that the eucharistic bread did not contain the real body and blood of Christ [a doctrine he himself later denied!], as blasphemy properly punishable by death. He blamed Brenz for his tolerance, asking why we should pity heretics more than does God, who sends them to eternal torment?

(Smith, 176- 177)

At the end of 1530, Melanchthon drafted a memorandum in which he defended a regular system of coercion by the sword (i.e., death for Anabaptists). Luther signed it with the words, “It pleases me,” and added:

      Though it may appear cruel to punish them by the sword, yet it is even more cruel of them . . . not to teach any certain doctrine — to persecute the true doctrine . . .

(Grisar, VI, 251)

So it is clear that Luther regarded as “enemies of Christ” those who denied the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist (as James White does), and that he regarded as “seditious” those who rejected infant baptism and who practiced a symbolic non-regenerative adult baptism (as White does), and that the latter was punishable by death in Lutheran territories (with Luther’s and Melanchthon’s express permission), whereas Luther would have largely agreed with the Catholic position on the Real Presence and Baptism, and he didn’t believe in the death penalty for Catholics (he preferred banishment at worst for them).

Martin Luther — in all likelihood, from what we know — would have extended to me the hand of Christian fellowship before he would have done the same to His Eminence, the Right Reverend Bishop James White: whom he would have regarded as a heretic sentenced to hell and a blasphemer (just as he viewed the Sacramentarians such as Zwingli and Oecolampadius), at least hypothetically worthy of the death penalty (as actually occurred in Lutheran territories).

Ironies never cease, and they ought to be pointed out now and then, especially with so many historical myths flying around in theological and apologetic circles . . .

REFERENCES

Althaus, Paul, The Theology of Martin Luther, translated by Robert C. Schultz, Philadelphia: Fortress Press, 1966.

Bainton, Roland (Protestant), Here I Stand, New York: Mentor Books, 1950.

Grisar, Hartmann, Luther, translated by E. M. Lamond, edited by Luigi Cappadelta, six volumes, London: Kegan Paul, Trench, Trubner & Co., 1915.

Jurgens, William A., editor and translator, The Faith of the Early Fathers, Collegeville, Minnesota: The Liturgical Press, three volumes, 1979.

Lindstrom, Harald, Wesley and Sanctification, Grand Rapids, Michigan: Francis Asbury Press, 1980.

Luther, Martin, Luther’s Works (LW), American edition, edited by Jaroslav Pelikan (volumes 1-30) and Helmut T. Lehmann (volumes 31-55), St. Louis: Concordia Pub. House (volumes 1-30); Philadelphia: Fortress Press (volumes 31-55), 1955.

Luther, Martin, Large Catechism, 1529, translated by Dr. Lenker, Minneapolis: Augsburg Publishing House, 1935.

Smith, Preserved, The Social Background of the Reformation, Book II of The Age of the Reformation, New York: Collier Books, 1962 (originally 1920).

Steinhauser, A.T.W., translator, Martin Luther: The Babylonian Captivity of the Church, 1520, from Three Treatises, Philadelphia: Fortress Press, revised edition, 1970; taken from the American edition of Luther’s Works, edited by Jaroslav Pelikan (see above), volumes 31, 36, 44.

Wesley, John, Explanatory Notes on the Whole Bible, 1765. Available online.

White, James R., The Roman Catholic Controversy, Minneapolis: Bethany House Publishers, 1996.

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For much more about James White, see: Bishop “Dr.” [?] James White: Anti-Catholic Extraordinaire (Index Page)

2017-04-19T11:13:27-04:00

GayFlag

– Photo credit: ‘Theodoranian’, CC-BY-SA-3.0, via Wikimedia Commons

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This exchange came about in response to comments underneath my National Catholic Register article, “History of the False Ideas Leading to Same-Sex ‘Marriage'” (11-2-16). Mark  is a lawyer (actually a former one and currently a PhD student). I love tangling with legal minds, so that makes it all the more fun. But I think I demonstrate below that even great legal minds somehow miss the most crucial details in opposing views, and hence argue fallaciously or irrelevantly. Mark’s words will be in blue.

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I highly doubt the National Catholic Register will publish my comment so I decided to send it to you personally. 

It is obvious that NCR allows free speech and dissent against expressed opinions, isn’t it? One of the respondents wrote personally to me, in fears that his comment wouldn’t be printed here. It was.

I am at least one of the commentators who emailed you personally (perhaps there are others, I do not know). And yes I did assume that the NCR would not post my comment. I applaud the fact that they did so. They deserve credit for allowing a discussion and I should not have assumed that they would shrink from it.

I appreciate your fair-mindedness.

If someone actually interacts with the arguments I have made (rather than phantom ones that I have not made here), I’ll be happy to interact with that. This is my standard policy on my blog, Facebook page, etc. I have neither time nor desire to contend about everything under the sun. I make specific arguments and am committed to defending those against scrutiny, not to wrangling about  straw men and caricatures of caricatures and stereotypes that were never my arguments in the first place.

Marriage has never been solely about pro-creation. We have always allowed elderly couples to marry. We have always allowed the infertile to marry. Not once have we ever revoked a marriage because a couple decided not to procreate. Not once have we even bothered to ask an engaged couple if they intended to procreate. You can repeat this line as much as you like but repetition will not make it true.

To clarify one thing that has been brought up which is at least somewhat related to my argument: There is nothing in Catholic teaching which forbids sex at times when it is determined that the woman is infertile, or in the case of a post-menopausal woman, or one who cannot bear children at all, or a sterile man. That’s fine, because it doesn’t involve a deliberate decision to ignore fertility and frustrate its natural course.

Sex during pregnancy or post-menopause is fine, because no one is deliberately trying to avoid conception. That has been taken out of the equation by God’s will for the ending of the reproductive capacity in the post-menopausal woman and the inability of a pregnant woman to conceive during that time.

Being open to life means there is no contralife will, wherein the evil lies. The Church has never opposed sex during menstruation or other infertile times in the woman’s cycle (Natural Family Planning incorporates all those things), or between a man and a woman who is infertile, or between a man with an inadequate sperm count and a woman, or for older couples (i.e., post-menopausal women). These situations do not involve the deliberate artificial suppression of what might or could happen, because fertility is rendered impossible or highly unlikely due to reasons other than the couple’s deliberate acts of artificial prevention. We hold that one must be open to life in the sexual act, or else abstain if the woman is fertile and a child is not desired at that particular time.

This claim has been shot down in dozens of courts.

Mine was not essentially a legal argument, though it touched upon legal decisions such as Griswold and of course Roe v. Wade. So this is a non sequitur in terms of my argument, which was exactly what the title conveyed.

Your claim that homosexuality leads to bad health outcomes has been roundly debunked, but even if we accepted your claim: so what?

Really? Here is a list of some of the diseases found frequently and disproportionately among male homosexual practitioners:

Anal Cancer
Chlamydia trachomatis
Cryptosporidium
Giardia lamblia
Herpes simplex virus
Human immunodeficiency virus
Human papilloma virus
Isospora belli
Microsporidia
Gonorrhea
Viral hepatitis types B & C
Syphilis
hemorrhoids
anal fissures
anorectal trauma
retained foreign bodies

See:

Anne Rompalo, “Sexually Transmitted Causes of Gastrointestinal Symptoms in Homosexual Men,” Medical Clinics of North America, 74(6): 1633-1645 (November 1990)

“Sexually Transmitted Diseases and Infections” (Remedy’s Health.com Communities) [7-31-01]

“Anal Health” (Remedy’s Health.com Communities) [7-31-01]

“Anal Sex Safety and Health Concerns” (WebMD)

“Anal Sex,” Dr. David Delvin / NetDoctor (11-25-13)

See much more related medical data about increased health risks entailed in homosexual sex, in one of my many past papers on the general topic. As for your “so what?” reply, it’s loving to inform people of behaviors that may subject them to serious health risks, not loving to pretend that they aren’t there, and to refuse to inform people of what they are entitled to know.

Yet invariably, folks are blasted for mentioning these factors. So be it. I don’t stop being loving stop telling the truth because I get called names and am despised for it.

Soldiers and coal miners also fare worse than the average individual. Do we deny them the right to marry? Children raised by the poor fare worse than those raised by the rich. Do we deny them the right to marry? Would you ever even consider such an argument – so why do you consider it when homosexuals are involved? I think I know the answer.

Non sequiturs all. As I said, I’m not arguing about rights in this immediate context. I’m simply recounting the evolution of the ideas leading to “gay marriage”: from a Catholic perspective. I understand many don’t agree. That doesn’t change Catholic teaching and certain indisputable facts as to how the current cultural-legal situation came about. The essential element of the discussion is, of course, the definition of marriage. Until just last year, that meant a legal (and for Catholics, also sacramental and mystical, as well as physical) union between a man and a woman. So, call me a bigot or whatever you like, for holding what US law maintained its entire history until last year; for holding what even President Obama and Bill and Hillary Clinton held till just a short time ago (or were they lying and being insincere, as so often?), and for holding to Catholic teaching.

I believe the Catholic Church has always required the ability to procreate for marriage to be allowed (though they routinely look the other way with elderly couples and the like). At least that’s what the Jesuits taught me.

They require the willingness to be open to children and to not contracept, if fertility is present. But if a couple is involuntarily infertile, that is no impediment to marriage. Thus, for example, the Church has no objection to two 80-year-olds marrying (say if both are widowed). It doesn’t object to the marriage of a man or woman who (after marriage) become infertile due to disease, etc.

The idea that any God would give a damn how two consenting adults express love towards one another, when that expression doesn’t harm a solitary soul, should be absurd on its face.

First of all, it does at least potentially harm people: both those who engage in the forbidden activities, and possibly others, due to the health risks, some of which are contagious. Secondly, of course if there is a God Who created sex, then it is altogether to be expected that He will have something to say about what proper / natural and improper / unnatural sex is. That gets into natural law and the very nature of things. What’s ridiculous is the notion that (granting God’s existence), God couldn’t care less about how human beings behave, He cares very deeply, which is why He gave us rules for conduct, for our own good and fulfillment.

If I actually thought that God was obsessed over consensual love, and determined to torture human beings eternally for expressing it,

People choose to reject God in their own free will, and that is why they end up in hell, not because God is supposedly some Divine Sadist. Do you really think I’d be stupid enough to get sidetracked in a discussion about hell? I only give it these three sentences in passing.

then I sure as hell wouldn’t worship that God. A God like that would be an immoral monster by any definition. You might as well tell me that God will torture people eternally for liking basketball because he likes baseball. It makes equal sense.

Basketball doesn’t violate natural law. A denial that marriage is exclusively between a man and a woman, and a denial of procreation as the most important essence of that union is a denial of natural law. You would agree (I assume) that rape or pedophilia are wrong and/or violate the natural order. We simply believe that of more acts than you do, and we have many reasons for why we believe so.

As for your comment that you would engage non-straw-man arguments, I don’t know if you were referring to my arguments specifically –

Some of them, as I have noted above. Virtually none of the comments I have seen, have directly dealt with my particular argument. It’s mostly boilerplate pro-homosexual polemics, that I have seen a million times, and know backwards and forwards by now.

but I do note that you have seemingly not responded to any critiques of your argument.

Precisely because I have seen almost none . . .

My concern, however, is with my critiques.

Naturally so!

I claim you have argued that the ability to procreate is “primary and essential” to the institution of marriage. If you consider that a straw-man please explain how I have miss-characterized your claim.

I didn’t argue it here; I assumed it (“The primary, essential purpose of marriage is procreation: producing of children as the fruit of the sexual oneness of a married couple.”). I have argued and defended it many times, elsewhere. This particular piece was written in a Catholic magazine primarily to Catholics. When one is targeting a specific audience (by and large), they need not defend and detail every commonly held premise. And so I did not. And I also had just 1000 words to make my fairly complex and multifaceted historical argument.

I responded that the legal conception of marriage has never considered the ability to procreate to be primary or essential because that ability has never been required for marriage at any point in our nation’s history, either at the licensing phase or thereafter:

And that was perfectly irrelevant to my argument, which was not primarily a legal one, but an analysis of how false ideas evolve, from a Catholic and broadly “traditional marriage” perspective. Legally, I agree, but if we talk in terms of culture, it was understood and assumed that the married couple would produce children. No one had to argue that. In the past, the average number of children was considerably higher than it is now. My father had five siblings. My mother-in-law had four. My wife has five. I had two. Now the average children per couple is about 1.8 or so. My wife and I (believing in the goodness of procreation and Catholic teaching) have four children, and would have had more, but for miscarriages and other health problems, and a low income.

If you are referring to your particular, religious conception of marriage, as I said previously I do not care.

Yeah, I know, but this page is about my argument, not yours. I’m talking about a Catholic conception of the history of ideas concerning marriage, and you only care about the legal history, which is an entirely distinct topic.  This is totally to be expected: you being a lawyer, and me being a Catholic apologist. But the topic remains mine, not yours. I defend my arguments. I don’t follow every rabbit trail just because someone wants to do that. In another time and place, fine, but here the topic is what the title of my paper says it is.

This debate concerns the legal institution of marriage.

That’s your concern, not mine in this paper, except for tangentially (because law necessarily reflects — as well as influences — the surrounding culture). My argument here is not, “why same-sex unions should not be legal” but rather, “how same-sex unions came about.” It’s an historical survey, and throughout I assume many Catholic views, rather than contending for them at every turn.

You can have whatever religious conception of marriage you like. My claim is that the ability to procreate has never been considered primary or essential to the legal institution of marriage.

I don’t dispute that, if we mean solely a civil legal perspective. It has nothing to do with my article.

Your argument – as it applies to the legal institution of marriage -is not new. As I noted it has been offered to, and rejected by, dozens of courts. It has been rejected because it is demonstrably false.

You just can’t get away from law . . . I think if you try hard enough, you really can walk and chew gum at the same time. I think you have it in ya.

. . . I do not believe that there was ever a point in our nation’s history where the majority of the population would look at a childless couple and claim: they are not truly married. I do not believe there has ever been a point in our nation’s history where the majority of the population would point to the marriage of an elderly couple and say: they are not truly married. Nor do I believe that there has ever been a time in our nation’s history when a married couple has announced their intent to not have children and the majority thus concluded: they are not truly married.

In the past, it was understood that married couples should have children; that this was fundamental to it. One rarely found a (fertile) couple who expressly decided not to have children. Now it’s common. My brother did this, and two of my wife’s brothers have also. And that is because up till the 60s our society was a more or less Christian culture, and contraception was regarded in those circles as gravely sinful. That was true of Protestants, Orthodox, and Catholics alike. The first time in history any Christian body accepted contraception as permissible (and only in hard cases) was the Anglicans in 1930. That very fact, when I was informed of it, was a bombshell to me, and was the first area where I changed my mind, in my conversion from evangelical Protestant to Catholic, in 1990.

As time has gone on, Protestants have largely accepted contraception and a certain anti-child mentality, leading to most of their major denominations being in favor of legal abortion. Thus, today, Catholics alone fully preserve the older outlook as regards marriage and children (procreation), and this is why you think my view is strange and a cultural backwater: thoroughly antiquated and non-mainstream. In our secular culture of today you are, of course, correct. As I already noted, elderly couples, etc., do not pose any contradiction to Catholic teaching. The fact that you think it would only shows that you are unfamiliar with our actual teachings on the life issues and procreation.

Your argument, frankly, is awash in logical fallacies and falsehoods.

That’s funny; this is what I think of yours: at least in part.

It fails to understand constitutional jurisprudence in ways that I can’t even begin to catalog (and yes, I am a lawyer).

I wasn’t dealing with constitutional jurisprudence. I only mentioned some of the legal highlights on our way to legal abortion and same-sex “marriage.” That’s your area. Mine is Catholic apologetics and the history of ideas (which I happen to love as an area of study).

It also seethes with the tendency to treat homosexuals differently than any other group. There is a reason that 64 of 65 courts that have considered the matter within the last 40 years have found no legal reason to deny homosexuals the right to marry (and the solitary exception, the precursor to Obergefell, did not find merit to the anti-SSM marriage arguments; it merely stated that it was bound by precedent).

The Supreme Court certainly wasn’t thinking this way in Bowers v. Hardwick in 1986, when it upheld anti-sodomy laws. That’s 30 years ago, not 40. But we would fully expect the Christian notion of marriage to be progressively broken down over time, because secularism is at war with most tenets of Christianity and many tents of traditional morality.

This is not a fight you are going to win. I think you know that.

Legally, no, but in terms of what is true and right, one “wins” by proclaiming it.

But your loss is not a valiant defeat in the pursuit of the good fight. It is a failed attempt to solidify bigotry and injustice.

Right; I’m a hateful troglodyte bigot. I expected more from you. But it really doesn’t surprise me, because this is so common, and indeed I predicted it in my paper: “Today, no one can disagree with what anyone else does without being accused of being “hateful” and “intolerant.” To disagree is to be a bigot and a bad person. That is the fruit of moral relativism.” You have now made civil, constructive dialogue impossible. But I’ll answer what you have stated so far. Then we’re through, because I refuse to continue on with someone who is convinced I am a bigot and hateful person.

And like those who enlisted religion in the defense of segregation before you, history will not look kindly upon your efforts. I truly hope you reconsider.

I am not likely to reconsider Catholicism. I’ve been a Catholic for 26 years and I only become more and more convinced of its truthfulness across the board, as I defend its doctrines.

I’m probably  going to far afield here but this post also resuscitates what I like to call the “solitary purpose” fallacy. It essentially rests on the notion that sexuality has one purpose, procreation, and no other.

That’s news to me. You seem to have some difficulty reading (and/or comprehending views not your own. I made it clear enough in my article (2nd paragraph): “That’s not to deny the unitive/pleasurable function of marriage, but it [procreation] is the most important purpose.”

This simply makes no sense. Things can have more than one purpose. My mouth has the purpose of both breathing and eating. Likewise sexuality can have the purpose of procreation and pleasure. Catholic theology, from Aquinas to George, has never squared this circle.

We agree totally. That’s why Pope Paul VI in his famous 1968 encyclical, Humanae Vitae, which reiterated the Catholic prohibition of contraception, talked about the unitive and procreative purposes of marriage. Every time a man has sex with a pregnant or menstruating, or otherwise non-fertile, or post-menopausal woman, the primary purpose is unitive and pleasure.

It could also rest on the related argument, the primary purpose argument. It goes like this, the PRIMARY purpose of sexuality is procreation -thus using it for pleasure alone is wrong. This also makes no sense.

At least here you present actual Catholic teaching, rather than a straw man distortion of it. Congratulations!

The mere fact that one uses something for a function outside of its primary purpose does not make it wrong. The primary purpose of my hands is most certainly not to walk upon them. And yet no one here would declare it “morally wrong” for me to walk upon my hands. This is what the author is arguing here. He asserts that the primary purpose of sexuality is procreation and thus using it for pleasure alone is wrong.

There are various arguments that can be made, and I have made many of them. One analogy I like to use is to eating. Eating has two components: health, and the pleasure of the taste buds and flavor. Most would readily agree that the primary purpose of food is nutritional. But they also acknowledge that the pleasure of taste is also a key component, if not the most deeply essential one.

Now, let’s examine for a moment how people regard eating; how they casually think about it, without thinking too much about it. How do we regard folks who deliberately separate the two functions? How do we regard a guy who only eats terrible-tasting food, like bark or something, and avoids good taste altogether? Well, we think he is very eccentric, and, um, unnatural. Conversely, what do we think of the person who eats only for pleasure: the junk food junkie? We think he or she is very weird, too, and doesn’t “get” it. That’s one example of two things relating to one activity that we assume without thinking ought to go together and not be separated.

It doesn’t mean that we never have a banana split. It means that we know that a human being does not properly only eat banana splits and Butterfinger candy bars and cotton candy at every meal.

That does not logically follow no matter how you slice it. You have to establish WHY using sex for pleasure is wrong.

That’s a long discussion (about why sex for pleasure to the exclusion of procreation, and with a contralife will is wrong), and most in today’s culture cannot grasp it: at least not at first exposure to traditional natural law moral reasoning. Pope Paul VI told us in Humanae Vitae (read it!) what would happen if society went down this path, and almost all of it has come to pass. The bad fruit indicates that the thing itself is bad and evil. I’ve debated and dialogued about contraception many times through the years (asterisked papers mean that they are from Internet Archive and take a minute or two to load):

Contraception: Early Church Teaching (William Klimon) [1998] *

Dialogue on Contraception [1998] *

Dialogue on the Ethical Distinction Between Artificial Contraception and Natural Family Planning (NFP) [2-16-01] *

Books by Dave Armstrong: Family Matters: Catholic Theology of the Family [Dec. 2002]

Why Did God Kill Onan? Luther, Calvin, Wesley, C.S. Lewis, & Others on Contraception [2-9-04] *

Contraception and the “Fewer Children is Better” Mentality: the Opposition of Martin Luther, John Calvin, and Other Protestants [2-21-04] *

Biblical Evidence Against Contraception [5-3-06]

Dialogue on Contraception & Natural Family Planning (NFP) (vs. Grubb) [5-16-06] *

Secular Social Science Vindicates Catholic Moral Teaching / Important Evangelical Protestants Rethinking Contraception (W. Bradford Wilcox) [12-12-06] *

Dialogue: Why Did God Kill Onan? Why is Contraception Condemned by the Catholic Church? [3-15-07] *

Protestant Compromise, Radical Secularism, and Racist Eugenics: The Contraception Debate: 1900-1940 [5-19-07] *

Replies to Questions on Catholic Teaching Regarding Contraception and Sexual Morality [1-1-08] *

Critique of the “Quiverfull” and “Divine Family Planning” Positions on Childbirth (That Oppose Catholic Natural Family Planning) [9-20-08] *

Bible on the Blessing of [Many] Children [3-9-09]

Discussion Thread About NFP, Contraception, and Marriage [Facebook, 8-3-11]

Protestants, Contraception, the Pill, & NFP [8-12-11]

Demographics, Large Families, and Spiritual Revivals [3-24-12]

NFP and “Contraceptive Intent” [Facebook, 8-28-13]

Biblical Data Against Contraception: Onan’s Sin and Punishment: a Concise “Catholic” Argument  [3-7-14]

Catholics Reproducing Like “Rabbits”: The Essential Silliness of the Clueless Perceptions of Pope Francis’ Perfectly Catholic and Orthodox Remarks [1-21-15]

Was Pope Francis Correct in Publicly Rebuking as “Irresponsible” a Woman Who Had Had Seven C-Sections?  [1-23-15]

Why for instance, is masturbation morally wrong? Merely stating that masturbation is not the primary purpose of the parts involved does not cut it.

I’ve dealt with that also, but not nearly as much as contraception and abortion:

Dr. James Dobson Sanctions Masturbation (+ Part II) (with E. L. Hamilton) [3-14-04 / 9-7-05] *

Debate on Masturbation (vs. Steve Hays) [1-6-07]

Response to Steve Hays’ Further Defense of (Oops, Sorry, “Neutral” Stance on) Masturbation [1-6-07] *

Masturbation Reference in Sermon on the Mount? [10-18-11]

You’re a self-described apologist. Maybe you can take a stab.

As you can see, I have. Many hundreds of people have informed me that my writings played a role in their becoming Catholics, so I have been fairly successful at what I do, too.  I’ve defended the Catholic faith, and have persuaded (by God’s grace and with the necessary primary influence of the Holy Spirit) those people to become Catholics.

If you want to see how I argue about homosexuality, I have plenty of those interactions, too, listed on my Sexuality and Gender web page. Thus, I’m the last person you can sensibly protest against for not having explained and defended my positions (at the greatest length). You know from my sidebar blurb that I am a Catholic apologist. This is what I have been doing for the last 35 years. I have 49 published books and 2000+ papers online (counting the older Internet Archive ones).

Ok. First of all, I really don’t give a damn about your theology. Your theology is your own and you’re entitled to it (I would strongly defend your right to it as well). If you want to claim that your article was not attacking the LEGAL recognition of same sex marriage then fine. As I said in my response I am only concerned with the legal institution of marriage. I think I made that clear. Though we should be honest with one another, I strongly suspect that you oppose the legal recognition of same sex marriage as well. Am I wrong? 

No. That’s quite obviously presupposed throughout my entire article. I deny that it is “marriage” at all, which is why I refuse to give it the title, and always put it in quotation marks if the word “marriage” is in the description. Quite obviously, then,  I can hardly favor legal same-sex “marriage” if I deny that it is marriage at all. 

I was merely noting (in reply to your constant “legal-only” emphases) that my approach in the article was not a legal approach (only tangentially at best), but rather the history of ideas, which is much more philosophy and ethics (with theological underlying assumptions) than law.

As for your response to the “dire health consequences” of homosexuality: that entire list appears to apply to heterosexual conduct as well. And you are aware, I hope, that heterosexuals also engage in anal sex.
*
The argument is exactly the same in either case, and is actually part of my overall argument: sex that is non-procreative by its very nature (whether heterosexual or homosexual) is wrong, unnatural, and unhealthy. Catholic theology condemns it, no matter who does it: gay or straight. That’s why I built my whole case against homosexual “marriage” from the building block of contraception, because that seeks to separate sexuality from the procreation which is its essence. 
*
Moreover I assume, by your logic, that you’re just fine with lesbian sex; many of the maladies you cite would not apply to them (while they would apply to heterosexual sex).
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Again, since it is entirely non-procreative, it is mortally sinful according to Catholic teaching.
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In fact I believe they are far less likely to contract or pass STDs then even heterosexual couples. So you’re cool with that right?
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I’m glad they have less risk of serious disease, but that doesn’t make the behavior moral or natural. Many lesbians, we know, are promiscuously bisexual, so they expose themselves to much risk in that way
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Because obviously, what’s at issue here isn’t just that you find homosexuals gross, it’s that you’ve conducted a fair assessment of the risks involved and made an objective cost-benefit analysis.
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You assert natural law. You have no basis to do so (that which is presented without evidence can be dismissed without evidence). It sure as hell doesn’t have any LEGAL relevance which, again, is all I care about. 
*
Legally, I agree, but if we talk in terms of culture, it was understood and assumed that the married couple would produce children. No one had to argue that.
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I literally have no idea how you can argue that. Where in God’s name are you getting this from?  It’s also not even supporting your point, which was: the ability to procreate is considered essential to marriage (culturally). As I pointed out earlier, we have always allowed the elderly to marry. No one at any point considered their marriages false, and they sure as hell didn’t expect them to have children.  Sorry but you can’t get out of this one; the ability to procreate has NEVER been considered essential to marriage. Not legally, and not culturally either (religiously perhaps – but again, don’t care). Your assertion that people assumed most married couples would have children in no way proves that the ability to procreate was culturally considered to be essential to marriage.  The example of the elderly couple quite clearly disproves your point. 
 
As for the bigotry. I don’t think you’re a bigot, but if you believe that legal marriage should be denied to homosexual couples then I certainly find that belief bigoted. Just as I would consider the belief that blacks could not marry whites racist. 

*

See ya. You say I’m not a bigot, yet you say I defend beliefs that you find bigoted. Isn’t that what we call a distinction without a difference? I simply say that we have an honest disagreement. Why isn’t that sufficient anymore? Why must the bigot card be played every time? But in any event, we’re done because of that. I don’t put up with it.

You’re not even following my arguments, and seem to be increasingly exasperated. I don’t expect anyone to understand Catholic reasoning anymore (especially in the realm of procreation), because they have had so little exposure to it. You abundantly show that here.

Lastly (it just occurred to me right now), as you kept commenting, you increasingly challenged me to explain my views in more depth: to — in effect — be an apologist and argue like one. You wrote: “You have to establish WHY using sex for pleasure is wrong.” And: “Why for instance, is masturbation morally wrong? . . . You’re a self-described apologist. Maybe you can take a stab.” So I did that, which necessarily involves theology, because that forms much of the basis for my objection (along with more secular or “theologically neutral” arguments such as health risks and analogies such as the one to eating).
*
Then you come back with,
“I really don’t give a damn about your theology.” Okay! That’s clear! But then, why ask me about it? You can figure that out. I can’t . . . In any event, I’ve always found thoroughgoing secularism to be self-defeating and ultimately incoherent upon any scrutiny, so it doesn’t surprise me that your analysis would suffer from the usual deficiencies of that worldview.

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Meta Description: Debate on various aspects of “gay marriage” with a secularist lawyer.

Meta Keywords: Gay marriage, homosexuality, lesbianism, LGBT, Marriage, same-sex marriage, same-sex unions

2017-02-27T14:09:34-04:00

. . .Including Replies to Reformed Baptist Anti-Catholic Polemicist James White

TempleHerod

Reconstruction of Herod’s Temple (at the time of Jesus), with Robinson’s Arch in the foreground [Wikimedia CommonsCreative Commons Attribution-Share Alike 2.5 Generic license]

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(9-2-04)
*****

This is a continuation of my series of responses to anti-Catholic luminary James White’s response to a talk I gave on Sola Scriptura on the radio show, Catholic Answers Live. [I offer a free download of this interview from 10-10-03]

I have decided to provide a lengthy response to White’s “rebuttal” of just one of the ten points I presented in that appearance. Remember (as I noted before), my talk was a mere summary. I estimated that I had about three minutes to elaborate upon each point, due to radio time constraints. So this was no in-depth analysis (which the extremely multi-faceted and complex topic of sola Scriptura ultimately demands). It doesn’t follow, however, that I am unable to provide a much more in-depth treatment of the topic.

White, after dodging my critiques of his work for nine years now, seized upon this great “opportunity” of my introductory talk on the radio to pretend, on his Dividing Line webcast, that I have “no clue” what I am talking about and “not a bit of substance” (his stock “responses” and insults where I am concerned). In his eyes, I am a complete ignoramus, a pretender, and utterly over my head in this discussion. White was trying to turn this into a half-baked “oral debate” and (as always, as with all his Catholic opponents) to embarrass me as a simpleton and lightweight apologist. We know he thinks this, because he made a statement like the following on his second show:

The problem, of course, is that this is, quite seriously, one of the things I’ve said about Mr. Armstrong and about many Catholic apologists, from the very beginning. They don’t do exegesis, and they don’t know how to. Um, of course, I could argue that they’re not allowed to.

Be that as it may, for my part, I replied that I have dealt with most or all these points (agree or disagree) in lengthy papers elsewhere, which he is most welcome to attempt to refute as he pleases. This one point is no exception. Here is the material upon which I based my radio presentation (I added just a little on the air, but rather than do more tedious transcription, I will cite the original “notes”: indented):

* * * * * 

In the Jerusalem Council (Acts 15:6-30), we see Peter and James speaking with authority. This Council makes an authoritative pronouncement (citing the Holy Spirit) which was binding on all Christians:

Acts 15:28-29: For it has seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things: that you abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols and from blood and from what is strangled and from unchastity.

In the next chapter, we read that Paul, Timothy, and Silas were traveling around “through the cities,” and Scripture says that:

. . . they delivered to them for observance the decisions which had been reached by the apostles and elders who were at Jerusalem. (Acts 16:4)

This is Church authority. They simply proclaimed the decree as true and binding — with the sanction of the Holy Spirit Himself! Thus we see in the Bible an instance of the gift of infallibility that the Catholic Church claims for itself when it assembles in a council.

That’s it! Obviously, this is a bare-bones summary of one argument, that can be greatly expanded, with many aspects and facets of it examined. Also, it is important to note that I was writing a refutation of sola Scriptura, not an apologia for the full authority of the Catholic Church, and papal infallibility, etc. The two things are logically and categorically distinct. One could easily reject sola Scriptura without accepting the authority of Rome and the pope. Many Christians, in fact, do this: e.g., Anglicans and Orthodox. The subject at hand is “whether sola Scriptura is the true rule of faith, and what the Bible can inform us about that.” I made a biblical argument that does not support sola Scriptura at all (quite the contrary). But White, using his usual illogical, wrongheaded, and sophistical techniques, which he has honed to perfection, tried to cleverly switch the topic over to Catholic ecclesiology. 

Beyond that, he also foolishly (but typically) implied that my intent in this argument was some silly notion that I thought I had demonstrated all that (Catholic ecclesiology, the papacy and magisterium, etc.) by recourse to this reasoning. This is part of his opinion that I am so stupid that I am unaware of such elementary logical considerations. Vastly underestimating one’s opponent makes for lousy debates and embarrassing “come-uppances” when the opponent proceeds to demonstrate that he is not nearly as much of a dunce and clueless imbecile as was made out. The Democrats have used this tactic for years in politics. It is disconcerting to see anti-Catholic Baptists follow their illegitimate model in theological discourse.

He is way ahead of the game, of course, and this is a straw man, since I believe no such thing at all. Sola Scriptura means something. It has a well-established definition among Protestant scholars. In the next excerpt, we will see it defined by the well-known, influential Reformed Presbyterian R.C. Sproul. The question at hand is whether sola Scriptura is indicated in the Bible. I gave ten reasons in my talk which suggest that it is not. This particular case, in fact, offers not only non-support, but also direct counter-evidence.

This argument concerning the Jerusalem Council was used in expanded form in my book, The Catholic Verses: 95 Bible Passages That Confound Protestants. Here is that portion of the book, in its entirety (indented):

THE BINDING AUTHORITY OF COUNCILS, LED BY THE HOLY SPIRIT

Acts 15:28-29: “For it has seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things: that you abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols and from blood and from what is strangled and from unchastity. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well. Farewell.”

Acts 16:4: “As they went on their way through the cities, they delivered to them for observance the decisions which had been reached by the apostles and elders who were at Jerusalem.”

These passages offer a proof that the early Church held to a notion of the infallibility of Church councils, and to a belief that they were especially guided by the Holy Spirit (precisely as in Catholic Church doctrine concerning ecumenical councils). Accordingly, Paul takes the message of the conciliar decree with him on his evangelistic journeys and preaches it to the people. The Church had real authority; it was binding and infallible.

This is a far cry from the Protestant principle of sola Scriptura — which presumes that councils and popes can err, and thus need to be corrected by Scripture. Popular writer and radio expositor R.C. Sproul expresses the standard evangelical Protestant viewpoint on Christian authority:

For the Reformers no church council, synod, classical theologian, or early church father is regarded as infallible. All are open to correction and critique . . .

(in Boice, 109)

Arguably, this point of view derives from Martin Luther’s stance at the Diet of Worms in 1521 (which might be construed as the formal beginning of the formal principle of authority in Protestantism: sola Scriptura). Luther passionately proclaimed:

Unless I am convicted by Scripture and plain reason – I do not accept the authority of popes and councils, for they have contradicted each other – my conscience is captive to the Word of God. I cannot and I will not recant anything, for to go against conscience is neither right nor safe. God help me, Amen. Here I stand, I cannot do otherwise.

(in Bainton, 144)

One Protestant reply to these biblical passages might be to say that since this Council of Jerusalem referred to in Acts consisted of apostles, and since an apostle proclaimed the decree, both possessed a binding authority which was later lost (as Protestants accept apostolic authority as much as Catholics do). Furthermore, the incidents were recorded in inspired, infallible Scripture. They could argue that none of this is true of later Catholic councils; therefore, the attempted analogy is null and void.

But this is a bit simplistic, since Scripture is our model for everything, including Church government, and all parties appeal to it for their own views. If Scripture teaches that a council of the Church is authoritative and binding, then it is implausible and unreasonable to assert that no future council can be so simply because it is not conducted by apostles.

Scripture is our model for doctrine and practice (nearly all Christians agree on this). The Bible doesn’t exist in an historical vacuum, but has import for the day-to-day life of the Church and Christians for all time. St. Paul told us to imitate him (see, e.g., 2 Thess. 3:9). And he went around proclaiming decrees of the Church. No one was at liberty to disobey these decrees on the grounds of “conscience,” or to declare by “private judgment” that they were in error (per Luther).

It would be foolish to argue that how the apostles conducted the governance of the Church has no relation whatsoever to how later Christians engage in the same task. It would seem rather obvious that Holy Scripture assumes that the model of holy people (patriarchs, prophets, and apostles alike) is to be followed by Christians. This is the point behind entire chapters, such as (notably) Hebrews 11.

When the biblical model agrees with their theology, Protestants are all too enthusiastic to press their case by using Scriptural examples. The binding authority of the Church was present here, and there is no indication whatever that anyone was ever allowed to dissent from it. That is the fundamental question. Catholics wholeheartedly agree that no new Christian doctrines were handed down after the apostles. Christian doctrine was present in full from the beginning; it has only organically developed since.

John Calvin has a field day running down the Catholic Church in his commentary for Acts 15:28. It is clear that he is uncomfortable with this verse and must somehow explain it in Protestant terms. But he is not at all unanswerable. The fact remains that the decree was made, and it was binding. It will not do (in an attempt to undercut ecclesial authority) to proclaim that this particular instance was isolated. For such a judgment rests on Calvin’s own completely arbitrary authority (which he claims but cannot prove). Calvin merely states his position (rather than argue it) in the following passage:

. . . in vain do they go about out of the same to prove that the Church had power given to decree anything contrary to the word of God. The Pope hath made such laws as seemed best to him, contrary to the word of God, whereby he meant to govern the Church;
This strikes me as somewhat desperate argumentation. First of all, Catholics never have argued that the pope has any power to make decrees contrary to the Bible (making Calvin’s slanderous charge a straw man). Calvin goes on to use vivid language, intended to resonate with already strong emotions and ignorance of Catholic theology. It’s an old lawyer’s tactic: when one has no case, attempt to caricature the opponent, obfuscate, and appeal to emotions rather than reason.

Far more sensible and objective are the comments on Acts 15:28 and 16:4 from the Presbyterian scholar, Albert Barnes, in his famous Barnes’ Notes commentary:

For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost. This is a strong and undoubted claim to inspiration. It was with special reference to the organization of the church that the Holy Spirit had been promised to them by the Lord Jesus, Matthew 18:18-20; John 14:26.

In this instance it was the decision of the council in a case submitted to it; and implied an obligation on the Christians to submit to that decision.

Barnes actually acknowledges that the passage has some implication for ecclesiology in general. It is remarkable, on the other hand, that Calvin seems concerned about the possibility of a group of Christians (in this case, a council) being led by the Holy Spirit to achieve a true doctrinal decree, whereas he has no problem with the idea that individuals can achieve such certainty:

. . . of the promises which they are wont to allege, many were given not less to private believers than to the whole Church [cites Mt 28:20, Jn 14:16-17] . . . we are not to give permission to the adversaries of Christ to defend a bad cause, by wresting Scripture from its proper meaning.

(Institutes, IV, 8, 11)

But it will be objected, that whatever is attributed in part to any of the saints, belongs in complete fulness to the Church. Although there is some semblance of truth in this, I deny that it is true.

(Institutes, IV, 8, 12)

Calvin believes that Scripture is self-authenticating. I appeal, then, to the reader to judge the above passages. Do they seem to support the notion of an infallible Church council (apart from the question of whether the Catholic Church, headed by the pope, is that Church)? Do Calvin’s arguments succeed? For Catholics, the import of Acts 15:28 is clear and undeniable.

Sources

Bainton, Roland H., Here I Stand, New York: Mentor Books, 1950.

Barnes, Albert [Presbyterian], Barnes’ Notes on the New Testament, 1872; reprinted by Baker Book House (Grand Rapids, Michigan), 1983. Available online.

Boice, James Montgomery, editor, The Foundation of Biblical Authority, Grand Rapids, Michigan: Zondervan, 1978, chapter four by R.C. Sproul: “Sola Scriptura: Crucial to Evangelicalism.”

Calvin, John, Calvin’s Commentaries, 22 volumes, translated and edited by John Owen; originally printed for the Calvin Translation Society, Edinburgh, Scotland, 1853; reprinted by Baker Book House, Grand Rapids, Michigan: 1979. Available online.

Calvin, John, Institutes of the Christian Religion, translated by Henry Beveridge for the Calvin Translation Society, 1845 from the 1559 edition in Latin; reprinted by Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Co. (Grand Rapids, Michigan), 1995. Available online.

Now let’s examine White’s reply to my argument on his Dividing Line webcast, and see if it can stand up under scrutiny. Let’s see how cogent and biblical it is, and how well the good, exceedingly-wise Bishop White can survive (what he calls a) “cross-examination” (he, of course, claims that I would utterly wilt under his sublime, brilliant questioning, which is supposedly why I refuse to debate him orally). I have given my argument in summary, in depth; I’ve responded to some historic Protestant objections to it; the argument is in print in a published book from a reputable Catholic publisher: Sophia Institute Press) and now I will counter-reply to White’s own sophistical commentary. Whether he wants to respond back, or flee for the hills as he almost always has before, for nine years, when I critique him, remains to be seen. Let his followers closely note his actions now, if they think he is so invulnerable and unable to be “vanquished.”

[White’s words below will be in blue. I am directly citing his words from the Dividing Line webcast of 8-31-04]:

[start from the time: 23:00. This portion ends at 25:00]

Hello, Mr. Armstrong! Acts 15, apostles are there; the Holy Spirit is speaking; the New Testament’s being written; hellooo! This is a period of inscripturation, and revelation! The only way to make that relevant is to say, “you still have apostles and still receive revelation,” but you all believe the canon’s closed, so that doesn’t work. This isn’t some extrabiblical tradition! This is the tradition of the Bible itself! It’s revelation! Uh, again, see why, as long as you don’t allow anyone to cross-examine you; remember Proverbs 18. The first one to present his case always seems right, until his opponent comes along and questions him. That’s what live debate allows to take place. [mocking, derisive, condescending tone throughout]

This is White’s entire answer. On the next Dividing Line of 9-2-04, which I just listened to live, he also added a few brief comments about the same argument:

. . . [the Jerusalem Council is binding] “as a part of Scripture.”

“The Church does have authority; not infallible authority.”

Now let’s see how this stands up, when analyzed closely. I shall respond to each statement in turn:

Hello, Mr. Armstrong!

Hello, Your Eminence, the Right Reverend Bishop Dr. James R. White, Th.D.!

apostles are there

So what? How does that change anything? Are not apostles models for us? Of course, they are. St. Paul tells us repeatedly to imitate him (1 Cor 4:16, Phil 3:17, 2 Thess 3:7-9). White would have us believe that since this is the apostolic period and so forth, it is completely unique, and any application of the known events of that time to our own is “irrelevant.” He acts as if the record of the Book of Acts has no historical, pedagogical import other than as a specimen of early Christian history, as if it is a piece of mere archaeology, rather than the living Word of God, which is (to use one of Protestants’ favorite verses) “profitable for teaching . . . and for training in righteousness” (2 Tim 3:16-17). So now the historical passages of the New Testament are “irrelevant”? Only the straight-out doctrinal teaching can be used to ascertain correct doctrine? If so, then where is that taught in Scripture itself, etc.? Passages like Hebrews 11, which recount the deeds of great saints and biblical heroes, imply that they are a model for us.

White’s viewpoint as to the implications of the Jerusalem Council is theologically and spiritually naive or simplistic because it would force us to accept recorded, inspired apostolic teaching about the Church and ecclesiology (whatever it is), yet overlook and ignore the very application of that doctrine to real life, that the apostles lived out in that real life. We would have to believe that this council in Jerusalem had nothing whatsoever to do with later governance of the Church, even though apostles were involved in it. That, in effect, would be to believe that we are smarter and more knowledgeable about Christian theology than the apostles were. They set out and governed the Church, yet they were dead-wrong, or else what they did has no bearing whatsoever on later Christian ecclesiology. Since this is clearly absurd, White’s view that goes along with it, collapses.

Moreover, this is a foolish approach because it would require us to believe that Paul and other apostles were in error with regard to how Christian or Church authority works. The preached a certain thing in this instance. If they believed in sola Scriptura (as models for us), then they would have taught what they knew to be Scripture (in those days, the Old Testament), and that alone, as binding and authoritative (for this is what sola Scriptura holds). If they didn’t understand authority in the way that God desired, how could they be our models? And if the very apostles who wrote Scripture didn’t understand it, and applied it incorrectly in such an important matter, how can we be expected to, from that same Scripture? A stream can’t rise above its source.

Lastly, White implicitly assumes here, as he often does, that everything the apostles taught was later doctrinally recorded in Scripture. This is his hidden premise (or it follows from his reasoning, whether he is aware of it or not). But this is a completely arbitrary assumption. Protestants have to believe something akin to this notion, because of their aversion to authoritative, binding tradition, but the notion itself is unbiblical. They agree that what apostles taught was binding, but they fail to see that some of that teaching would be “extrabiblical” (i.e., not recorded in Scripture). The Bible itself, however, teaches us that there are such teachings and deeds not recorded in it (Jn 20:30, 21:25, Acts 1:2-3, Lk 24:15-16,25-27). The logic is simple (at least when laid out for all to see):

1. Apostles’ teaching was authoritative and binding.
2. Some of that teaching was recorded in Scripture, but some was not.
3. The folks who heard their teaching were bound to it whether it was later “inscripturated” or not.
4. Therefore, early Christians were bound to “unbiblical” teachings or those not known to be “biblical” (as the Bible would not yet be canonized until more than three centuries later).
5. If they were so bound, it stands to reason that we could and should be, also.
6. Scripture itself does not rule out the presence of an authoritative oral tradition, not recorded in words. Paul refers more than once to a non-written tradition (e.g., 2 Tim 1:13-14, 2:2).
7. Scripture informs us that much more was taught by Jesus and apostles than what is recorded in it.
8. Scripture nowhere teaches that it is the sole rule of faith or that what is recorded in it about early Church history has no relevance to later Christians because this was the apostolic or “inscripturation” period. Those are all arbitrary, unbiblical traditions of men.

One could go on and on about the falsehood of White’s opinion here. His view is simply wrongheaded and not required by the Bible at all. It is an unsubstantiated, unbiblical tradition within Protestantism, that has to exist in order to bolster up the ragged edges of another thoroughly unbiblical tradition: sola Scriptura. As the latter cannot be proven at all from Scripture, it, and all the “supports” for it such as this one, are all logically circular.

. . . the Holy Spirit is speaking . . .

Exactly! This is my point, and what makes the argument such a strong one. Here we have in Scripture itself a clear example of a Church council which was guided by the Holy Spirit. That is our example. It happened. White can go on and on about how these were apostles, but the apostles had successors. We know from Scripture itself that bishops were considered the successors of the apostles.

There was to be a certain ecclesiology. The New Testament speaks of this in relatively undeveloped ways (just as it speaks of fine points of Christology and trinitarianism in an undeveloped sense, which was developed by the Church for hundreds of years afterwards).

If the Holy Spirit could speak to a council then, He can now. Why should it change? This doesn’t require belief in ongoing revelation. That is another issue. The disciples were clearly told by our Lord Jesus (at the Last Supper) that the Holy Spirit would “teach you all things” (Jn 14:26) and “guide you into all truth” (Jn 16:13). This can be understood either as referring to individuals alone, in a corporate sense, or both. If it is corporate, then it could apply to a church council. And in fact, we see exactly that in the Jerusalem Council, after Jesus’ Resurrection and Ascension.

Of course, if white wants to assert that the Holy Spirit can’t speak any more, after the apostolic age and the age of revelation, that is up to him, but that is equally unbiblical and unnecessary. He can give us non biblical proof that this is the case, anymore than some Protestants (perhaps white himself) are “cessationists,” who believe that miracles and the spiritual; gifts ceased with the apostles also.

. . . the New Testament’s being written . . . This is a period of inscripturation and revelation!

So what? What does that have to do with how these early Christians regarded authority and how they believed that councils were binding? Where in the Bible does it say that this period is absolutely unique because the Bible was being written during it? The inspired Bible either has examples of historical events in it which are models for us, or it doesn’t. If it does, White’s case collapses again. If it doesn’t, I need to hear why someone would think that, based on the Bible itself, which doesn’t even list its own books, let alone teach us that we can’t determine how the Church was to be governed by observing how the first Christians did it .

The only way to make that relevant is to say, “you still have apostles and still receive revelation” . . .

On what basis is this said? I don’t see this in the Bible anywhere. Why do we have to still have apostles around in order to follow their example, as we are commanded to do? What does the ending of revelation have to do with that, either? Therefore, it is (strictly-speaking) an “extrabiblical tradition.” If so, then it is inadmissible (in the sense of being binding) according to the doctrine of sola Scriptura. If that is the case, then I am under no obligation to accept it; it is merely white’s arbitrary opinion. Nor is White himself. He contradicts himself, and this is a self-defeating scenario, involving the following self-contradiction:

In upholding the principle which holds only biblical teachings as infallible and binding, I must appeal to an extrabiblical teaching.

This is utterly incoherent, inconsistent reasoning, and must, therefore, be rejected.

You all believe the canon’s closed, so that doesn’t work.

The question of the canon is irrelevant to this matter as well. Protestants and Catholics agree as to the New Testament books. So what is found in the New Testament is inspired, inerrant, and infallible. That’s why I cite it to make my arguments about ecclesiology and the rule of faith, just like I defend any other teaching I believe as a Catholic.

This isn’t some extrabiblical tradition! It’s the tradition of the Bible itself! It’s revelation!

Bingo! Why does he think I used it in the first place?! Exactly!!! Dr. White thus nails the lid on the coffin of his own “case” shut and covers it with a foot of concrete. This “tradition of the Bible” in Acts 15 and 16 teaches something about the binding authority of church councils, and it is not what sola Scriptura holds (which is the very opposite, of course). Case closed. White can grapple with this portion of what all agree is inspired revelation all he wants, and offer pat answers and insufficiently grounded, circular reasoning all he likes; that doesn’t change the fact.

Then White stated that the Council is binding “as a part of Scripture.”

This is equally wrongheaded and off the mark. It was binding, period, because it was a council of the Church, guided by the Holy Spirit (a fact expressly stated by inspired Scripture itself). It would have been binding on Christians if there had never been a New Testament (and at that time there was not yet one anyway). Whether this was recorded later in Scripture or not is irrelevant. If Dr. White disagrees, then let him produce a statement in the New Testament which teaches us what he claims: that it was only binding because it later was recorded in Scripture. If he can’t, then why should we believe him? I am the one arguing strictly from Scripture and what it reveals to us; he is not. He has to fall back on his own arbitrary opinions: mere extrabiblical traditions of men.

Of course, the Church later acts in precisely the same way in its ecumenical councils, declaring such things as that those who deny the Holy Trinity are outside Christianity and the Church, or that those who deny grace alone (Pelagians) are, etc. They make authoritative proclamations, and they are binding on all Christians. The Bible and St. Paul taught that true Christian councils were binding, but Martin Luther, James White, and most Protestants deny this. I will follow the Bible and the apostles, if that must be the choice, thank you.

The Church does have authority; not infallible authority.

Sorry to disagree again, but again, that is not what the Bible taught in this instance. Here the Church had infallible authority in council, and was led by the Holy Spirit. This is clearly taught in the Bible. Period. End of discussion. I think White senses the power of this argument, which is why he tried to blithely, cavalierly dismiss it, with scarcely any discussion (an old lawyer’s trick, to try to fool onlookers who don’t know any better). Knowing that, he has to use the “this is the period of inscripturation and the apostles” argument, but that doesn’t fly, and is not rooted in the Bible, as shown. We are shown here what authority the Church has. If White doesn’t like it, let him produce an express statement in the Bible, informing us that the Church is fallible. One tires of these games and this sort of “theological subterfuge,” where the person who claims to be uniquely following the Bible, and it alone, invents nonsense out of whole cloth, when directly confronted with portions of that same Bible that don’t fit into their preconceived theology and arbitrary traditions of men. Our Lord Jesus and the Apostle Paul dealt with this in their time. Sadly, we continue to today.

Addendum: Dividing Line of 9-2-04

This was more of the same silliness, with even less solid reply. It was remarkable (even by White’s low standards) in its sustained juvenile, giggly mocking of Catholics, especially as White sat and listened to the advertising on the Catholic Answers Live show. I found this to be a rather blatant demonstration of the prejudiced mindset and mentality of the anti-Catholic. But as I have known of this tendency in the good bishop for many years, it came as no surprise at all. He started out with the obligatory digs at me:

[derisive laughter throughout]

Dave’s just playin’ along with the game; you know what I mean?
How can you self-destruct two times on your own blog?
. . . I feel sorry for old Dave . . .
We didn’t have a postal debate . . . absolute pure desperation . . .

White even went after Cardinal Newman later on:

[Newmanian development of doctrine is a] convenient means of abandoning the historical field of battle.

He went on to state that this involves a “nebulous” notion of doctrine whereby it can be molded and transmutated into almost anything, no matter how it relates to what went before. Of course, this is a complete distortion of Newman’s teaching (which is an organic, continuous development of something which remains itself all along, like a biological organism), and shows profound ignorance of it by Dr. White, but that is another topic. Those who are familiar with Newman’s thought will see how bankrupt this “analysis” is. But this comes straight from the 19th-century Anglican anti-Catholic controversialist George Salmon (it is almost a direct quote from him). Nothing new under the sun . . .

I hope readers have enjoyed another installment of my writing which has, of course, no substance whatsoever, and where I exhibit yet again my marked characteristic of not having a clue concerning that of which I write. And I’m sure you will enjoy White’s lengthy written reply, too (just don’t hold your breath waiting for that, please!).

*****

Meta Description: Discussion about the relationship of Church authority to inspired Scripture; + exchanges with anti-Catholic polemicist James White. 

Meta Keywords: Anti-Catholicism, apostolic succession, apostolic tradition, Bible Only, Catholic Tradition, Christian Authority, development of doctrine, James White, Rule of Faith, Scripture Alone, Sola Scriptura, Tradition

2017-02-27T14:47:22-04:00

(aka John Q. “Deadhead” Doe)

crybaby2

[public domain / Pixabay]

***

Many of the papers below are archived versions from Internet Archive. Select from July 2015 or earlier, and allow a minute or two for them to upload.

Mr. Swan is of the Reformed Protestant persuasion, and does quite a bit of research on Martin Luther.

*****

Counter-Reply: Martin Luther’s Mariology (Particularly the Immaculate Conception): Has Present-Day Protestantism Maintained the “Reformational” Heritage of Classical Protestant Mariology?(+ Part II | Part III) [4-26-03]

Second Reply Concerning Martin Luther’s Mariology [6-28-03; massive rebuttal! After this, Swan personally despised me]

Dialogues With James White (+ Questions About My Editing of Dialogues) [3-1-04]

Dialogue on My Critique of James White’s Book, Mary — Another Redeemer? (+ Part II) (particularly with regard to the differing views on early Mariology of Protestant Church historians J.N.D. Kelly and Philip Schaff) (vs. James Swan and “BJ Bear”) [3-15-04 and 9-7-05]

“The Lost Liguori”: The Nefarious Protestant Conspiracy to Conceal St. Alphonsus’ Christocentric Mariology [3-26-04]

My Use of Luther Biographer Roland Bainton: Does it Exhibit an Undue, Unfair Bias?: Part I: Introduction and Questions About the Older Luther (Including His Nasty Language & Intemperance) [9-19-04]

My Use of Luther Biographer Roland Bainton: Does it Exhibit an Undue, Unfair Bias?: Part II: Luther and the Artist Lucas Cranach [9-21-04]

My Use of Citations From Luther Biographer Roland Bainton: Part III: Luther’s Views on the Death Penalty and Persecution [9-22-04]

My Use of Citations From Luther Biographer Roland Bainton: Part IV: Luther and the Bigamy of Philip of Hesse [9-23-04]

James Swan’s Opinion and Suggestions Concerning “Lengthy Papers” [9-24-04]

Anti-Catholic James Swan’s Unique, Ambiguous Use of Religious “Anti” Language [12-29-05]

Dispute Over the Word “Ass” as a Supposed “Swear Word” (Even Though it is in Calvin, Shakespeare, & the Bible)  (+ Part II / Part III[April 2007]

Swan vs. Historical Fact: Luther’s Advocacy of the Death Penalty for Anabaptists & Mixed Record in the Peasants’ Revolt of 1525 [Nov. 2007]

The Ghost of Martin Luther Interviews James Swan About Dastardly, Wascally Luther-Basher Dave Armstrong (satire related to Swan’s critiques of my use of Luther biographer Roland Bainton) [3-26-08]

My Comments Deleted from the Boors All Blog For No Reason / Doe’s Ludicrous Double Standards Regarding “Banning” Documented [6-8-10]

Four Open Letters to Doe, Proposing Mutual Removal of Posts (+ Documentation of His Avalanche of Insults) [6-30-10]

How Anti-Catholic Apologists “Argue” (James Swan) [6-30-10]

“Book Reviews” (Alleged) With No Book Title or Author’s Name? More Eccentric and “Erratic” Doe’s Anti-Catholic Goofiness [6-30-10]

Luther and the “Immaculate Purification”: Tao & John Q. Doe Score Some Points In-Between Attacks But Luther & Doe Adopt Blasphemous Semi-Nestorianism [10-2-10]

Doe Still Obsessed With My Work (98 Posts!): Pretense of a “DA-Free” Blog, Removal of My Name, & Anonymous Book Reviews [11-18-10]

Doe Insults Catholic Apologist Scott Windsor, Then (When It Suits His Polemical Purposes) Sez He is a “Man of Integrity” (Esp. Compared to Me) [11-23-10]

Doe Thinks His Cronies “Turretinfan”, Phil Johnson, & Frank Turk “Crave Popularity” Due to Their Blogger “Followers” Widgets [12-16-10]

Blistering Anti-Catholic Attack on Lay Catholic Apologetics (Matthew D. Schultz & all the Usual Suspects at Boors All) [1-22-11]

Humorous Interlude at the Anti-Catholic Boors All Blog [4-11-11]

Luther’s Lie About the Supposed Utter Obscurity of the Bible Before His Translation and Luther “Expert” John Q. Doe’s Usual Erroneous, Revisionist Opinions [6-15-11]

Doe’s Tired Intellectually Dishonest Sophistry (His Anti-Catholic Luther Research and its Nefarious Methodological Tactics) [6-15-11]

Swan’s Glaring Double Standards Regarding “Self-Published” Books (Such as Those by Cronies William Webster & David T. King) [7-18-11]

“Luther / Esther / Canon” Polemics and Swan’s Attempts to Solely Blame Catholics for a Questionable Luther Citation Passed Down by Three Protestants: an Editor, Major Compiler of Luther Works, and Admiring Biographer [8-20-11]

Swan Continues His Ridiculous Blaming of Catholic Apologists for Protestant Mistakes or Honest Scholarship, With Regard to Luther’s View of the Canon [8-27-11]

Am I a Psychotic Madman? (James Swan Sez Yes) [2-8-13]

Viral Anti-Catholic Cluelessness: A Classic Example [Facebook, 4-14-13]

John Calvin’s Flimsy and Unbiblical Objection to the Term, Mother of God and Swan’s Vapid Swipes at Catholic Apologists [5-19-13]

Did the Older Luther’s Illness and Frustration Significantly Impact His Negative Rhetoric? Four Major Luther Historians, Calvin, Bullinger, and I Say Yes; Swan Says No  [6-12-13]

Reply to James Swan’s Request for Documentation of Executions of Anabaptists Sanctioned by Luther, in the 1530s [8-17-14]

James Swan’s Swipes at Paul Hoffer, Ethical Hypocrisy, and the Catholic Answers Forum Suspension Controversy [Facebook, 9-9-14]

Satire on Swan’s Banning Policies: A Must to Avoid [9-10-14]

Martin Luther’s Acceptance of the Perpetual Virginity of Mary, Including “In Partu” Virginity (“at the birth of Christ”): Documentation (+ James Swan’s Belittling Contempt of Luther) [Facebook, 9-23-14]

Did John Calvin Believe in Mary’s Perpetual Virginity? (Debate with Tim Staples + Swan’s Usual Unsavory Tactics and Nonsense) [10-12-14]

James Swan Bolsters His Reputation as a Dense Amateur Church Historian and Hypocritical Nitpicker Yet Again [Re: Melanchthon and the Bishops and Princes / Facebook, 2-4-15]

The James Swan Insultapalooza Post [Facebook, 2-17-15; the massive hypocrisy of his condemning insults: many of which are actually, rather, true statements about his own inveterate lying about Catholics and Catholicism]

Luther & Veneration of Mary: James Swan’s Revisionism: His Anti-Catholic Nonsense with Regard to Martin Luther’s Mariology & Also My Related Research [4-22-16]

*****

Meta Description: James Swan is one of the more colorful, tempestuous anti-Catholics. He’s out to sea when he tries to debate, as repeatedly shown.

Meta Keywords: Anti-Catholic, Anti-Catholicism, Anti-Catholics, antichrist, Catholic Church, Catholicism, damned, idolaters, pagans, papists, Pelagians, reprobate, James Swan, John Q. Doe, John Q. “Deadhead” Doe, Roman Catholic Church, Romanism, totally depraved, unregenerate, unsaved, Whore of Babylon

2017-04-03T17:00:17-04:00

BibleLuther
Martin Luther’s German translation of the Bible; 1534 edition, from his house in Wittenberg, Germany [public domain / Wikimedia Commons]
(6-5-10)

These remarks and dialogues occurred in a combox on the Reformed Protestant-dominated Green Baggins website (starting at comment #259). Paige Britton’s words are in bluerfwhite‘s in green, Jeff Cagle’s in purple. The words of anti-Catholic polemicist Ron DiGiacomo (who entered the discussion blasting with the obligatory repeated personal attacks that I won’t bore readers with below and almost immediately became a parody of himself and of a lousy Protestant apologist), will be in red.

* * * * *

If the Catholic church merely affirms what has always been canonical, does this mean that the Apocryphal books have “always” been canonical (and “authored by God”) just like the rest of the OT & NT?

* * *

Of course, since from our perspective (in line with the Septuagint and the early Church), we regard them as canonical along with the rest. What is truly Scripture is so inherently, being God-breathed. We all agree on that. We disagree on certain books.
* * *

My argument would be to say that Church authority has to necessarily settle that, since the Bible itself does not, and that this has always been a thorny question for Protestants to deal with, since they don’t like binding, infallible Church authority, and a fallible collection of infallible biblical books just don’t cut it.

* * *

…Which is why I raised the original question about church authority in relation to the canon. Maybe there are some good reasons why Protestants reject the Apocryphal books (or at least reasons we think are pretty good). Whitaker gets into these in Ch. 4 of the work Lane has coaxed us to read (there is a link to the Google version at the beginning of the post that heads this thread). But the discussion always spins back around to how God set up the universe — fallible ministers, or infallible magisterium? That “fallible collection of infallible biblical books” line sounds laughable,
* * *

I agree. It was popularized by [Calvinist] R. C. Sproul (in case anyone was unaware of that).

* * *

but if, as we believe (with Luther, that heretic!), we’re in a “fallible minister” universe, then even the wisest of councils can’t give us what Jeff Cagle calls “mathematical certainty,” whether about the canon or about doctrine. But if this is the case, we should expect sufficient certainty in these areas, so that “fallible” does not necessarily always equal “wrong.” So I’ll bite the bullet and accept the “fallible collection of infallible books.”

* * *

Protestants can play games with epistemology and “mathematical certainty” if they like. I’ve heard those tired arguments a hundred times. That was never what Christianity was about, anyway, because it is a religion that requires faith, not mathematics or philosophy.[i.e., as I clarified later under strong, utterly wrongheaded criticism: “I was saying (a variant of what I have stated 100 times on my blog, though I could have stated it more precisely) that religion is not philosophy; Christianity is not philosophy. It can’t be reduced to that. It requires faith. I was not at all saying that there is no such thing as Christian philosophy: a thing I passionately love and use all the time.”]

* * *

Without strong, binding Church authority, it is quite likely that the canon question would have gone on being controversial for a long time, quite possibly up to our present day. [I have here changed some of my words, for the sake of greater precision, compared to my original post] It is a question of knowing what the Bible is in the first place, which is a necessary precursor for sola Scriptura to be able to be practiced at all (to even attempt to practice it).
* * *

Sproul recognizes the conundrum for what it is. One has to have infallible binding authority in order to get to a place where sola Scriptura (the belief that holds that only Scripture is the final, infallible authority) can get off the ground: even theoretically. But since the original premise is directly, expressly contradictory to the new one built upon it, we see that the whole procedure is viciously circular.

* * *

I’ve never seen a decent Protestant argument that resolves this, and I don’t expect to see it here. Perhaps someone will give me a big surprise. I won’t hold my breath.

* * *

One, what must the nature of the church’s authority be for its recognition of the canon to be infallible?

* * * 

 

Obviously, I think, a binding (we would say, apostolic) authority; otherwise, what good is the proclamation? It is no better than you or I saying which books are Scripture. It is clear from Scripture itself that the Church has such authority. We see it most clearly in the Jerusalem Council (Acts 15:28: RSV: “For it has seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things”).

* * *

Even Paul and Timothy proclaimed this binding authoritative pronouncement: “As they went on their way through the cities, they delivered to them for observance the decisions which had been reached by the apostles and elders who were at Jerusalem” (Acts 16:4).

* * *

“Infallibility” is simply another way of saying that something is true (and in this case, protected by the assistance of the Holy Spirit). It is because Protestants often now accept theological relativism or relativistic latitude on a host of issues, that they disparage certitude and infallibility. In other words, since y’all can’t resolve your never-ending internal differences, you relegate large areas of Christianity to mere personal choice.
* * *

That approach is, with all due respect, post-Enlightenment, postmodernist gobbledygook, not biblical or historic Christianity, nor even the Christianity of Luther and Calvin, who felt quite certain of their own beliefs and even damned those who differed from it (e.g., Luther’s opinion of Zwingli, or Calvin calling Lutheranism an “evil”).

* * *

Two, does infallibility apply to the component parts of the canon only or does it extend to the collection as a whole also?

* * *

Catholics believe that all Scripture is infallible (in its manuscripts). We also believe that the proclamation of the canon is an infallible one, since it was finalized at Trent in a dogmatic fashion.

* * *

How can the RCC authoritatively declare that certain books are God-breathed and authoritative, without undercutting their authority by playing the king-maker?
* * *
The same way it could declare that circumcision was no longer necessary for Gentiles, in the Jerusalem council. The same way it could determine that Matthias was a successor to Judas; hence an apostle (hence an operation of apostolic succession), recorded in Holy Scripture itself. It does so because it is the “pillar and foundation of the truth”.
* * *
I’d like to address some of the (rather interesting and thoughtful) questions from Jeff (from #270) that I didn’t have time for up till now.
* * *
. . . this central question has arisen:
* * *
Does the church create truth or recognize truth?
* * *
Obviously the latter in terms of the canon (or indeed, anything, I would say). The truth is what it is. The Catholic Church can create dogmas (just as the Calvinist communion creates the dogma of TULIP) but not truths themselves. And the Church can do neither out of thin air, as we are often charged. I addressed this above in one of my remarks (#254), and cited Vatican I and II to prove that this is in fact what we assert regarding the canon (contrary to many contra-Catholic myths to the contrary).

* * *

Sean’s response (#126):

* * *

Your question, “Does the church create truth or recognize truth?” leaves out a third option: “Does the Church authoritatively declare truth?”

* * *

And so now the question on the table is, What does that third option mean? What is the difference between authoritatively declaring truth and either recognizing truth (as scientists attempt to do) or creating truth (as baseball umpires do).

* * *

I think it is mainly a question of semantics and clarification. I won’t speak for Sean. That is for him to do (being the world’s greatest expert on the thoughts and intentions in his own head). But I have my own thoughts.
* * *
The Church doesn’t “create” the canon in the most technical sense because it is what it is: God-inspired revelation: a thing that is separate from and prior to the Catholic Church (or anyone) recognizing it for what it is. So we can lay that to rest. It makes no sense once we understand what Holy Scripture inherently is, and it is not our claim anyway. So bye-bye, pseudo-objection and false stereotype . . . it comes from the Protestant either/or speculation that the Catholic Church is always trying to place itself above Scripture. That is not our position at all, as I also explained in the same post above (#254).

* * *

I would say that declaring and recognizing truth are basically the same thing. Using either word in a sentence regarding a truth or a fact amounts to essentially the use of what are synonyms. But to use the terminology of “authoritatively declare” as Sean did, brings in the additional element of proclamation of a dogma, which is a different thing.
* * *
This is why I myself use the phraseology of saying that there needed to be a binding, authoritative proclamation of the biblical canon, to settle the question once and for all. It was not completely settled spontaneously in history. There was a significant consensus, granted (especially for the gospels and Pauline epistles), but there were lots of doubts about other books, and many eminent fathers thought books not now included, were Scripture.
* * *
I would disagree, by the way, that a baseball umpire “creates truth.” He does not. If anything, he creates a “dogma”: a certain pitch is now to be regarded dogmatically as a strike or a ball and a play as an out or not or a ball fair or foul, etc. The things involved are what they are: truths, prior to the umpire making a decision on them. In fact, any given thrown pitch was either a strike or not. The umpire may be correct in his assessment or incorrect. But he doesn’t create anything. He declares.

* * *

Conveniently, this was graphically brought home in the recent Detroit Tigers game where our pitcher was deprived of a perfect game because of a clearly blown umpire’s call. Replays revealed that the last base runner was in fact out. But the umpire had created the “dogma” that he was safe. He did not create a new “truth” that he was safe, because in fact he was not safe. Even the umpire knows this now. The commissioner of baseball has decided to uphold the “dogma.”
* * *
In relationship to the canon, that’s what Paige is getting at. What is the difference between “infallibly recognizing the canon” and “infallibly authoritatively declaring the canon”?
* * *
We have established that no one is “creating” anything. Now you are using the word “infallibly.” I don’t see much difference in recognizing vs. declaring. The real question is infallibility, authority, and a binding decree or dogma. Our position is consistent. We believe in the three-legged stool as our rule of faith: Scripture, Church, Tradition. None is “above” the other. They are all of a piece.
* * *
The canon is above all a practical matter: how can the Christian know which books are indeed God-breathed Scripture? The early Christians disagreed too much and couldn’t fully settle it. So the Church did, and did so authoritatively. But Protestants accept no infallible Church declaration, since their only final infallible authority is Scripture. So they are left with a radical circularity and vicious circle: they must adopt, in effect, an infallible Church authority (which they cannot do) in order to have their infallible Scripture, which they make alone the infallible authority in all Matters Christian.
* * *
If the Church was in fact, fallible when it made the decision (and Protestants do actually think this when it comes to the deuterocanon), then Protestants are left with an open canon, and cannot know with the certitude of faith what are indeed the legitimate New Testament books. A fallible collection of infallible books is a contradiction in terms.
* * *
I don’t view this at all as a game, but as the central question surrounding RC authority:
* * *
Good. It is a very serious discussion indeed, with momentous consequences, depending on how one comes down on the question.

* * *

how can the RCC make the claims that it does about authority, without usurping God’s own authority?
* * *
It is not doing so at all, because the Church was given its authority by God, and is guided by the Holy Spirit (Jn 14:26; 15:26; 16:13). Jesus commissioned Peter as the head of the Church (tons of Scriptures for Petrine primacy, that even many Protestant scholars now recognize). Paul was commissioned by the Church and possessed apostolic authority, as did the other apostles. The Jerusalem Council (Acts 15) exercised profound binding, infallible authority, as I have mentioned. Paul went around proclaiming these binding decrees (Acts 16:4). Bishops had a strong authority. Matthias was an apostle in replacement of Judas: thus showing apostolic succession in the Bible itself. The Church has the power to anathematize (Matt 18:17) and bind and loose (Matt 16:19; 18:18; Jn 20:23), forgive sins, and pronounce absolution and penances. Personal infallibility, such as we believe popes possess in certain circumstances, was already foreseen to an even greater extent in the prophets, infallible (and even inspired) Bible writers, and the apostles. It is no novel thing at all. 1 Timothy 3:15 alone, as I have argued, is sufficient to establish a sublime Church authority.
* * *
I have collected literally many hundreds of Bible passages demonstrating all these things. The Tradition, Church, and Papacy chapters of my book, Bible Proofs for Catholic Truths take up its first 161 pages: and it is 95% simply listed Scripture, like Nave’s Topical Bible.

* * *

All this, yet you can’t see ecclesiastical authority in Scripture, and feel as if any such authority must needs be in conflict with God, in classic Protestant “either/or” fashion?

* * *

Reformed churches have authority, too, you know, on a lesser scale than us, but they still do. How does that not usurp God, just as you claim our authority does?
* * *
Allow me to try further to understand your position. You write, 
* * *

If the Church was in fact, fallible when it made the decision (and Protestants do actually think this when it comes to the deuterocanon), then Protestants are left with an open canon, and cannot know with the certitude of faith what are indeed the legitimate NT books….

* * *

My question: is it your position that for the church’s recognition of the canon to be infallible, the nature of the church’s authority must be infallible? If so, why does this follow?

* * *

Fair question. It’s not strictly necessary, of course (your word “must”), for some Christian body to make a declaration (even a binding one) in an infallible way. So broadly speaking, no.
* * *
What I’m arguing is that in order to have certainty that the Bible as we know it (leaving off the question of the deuterocanon for now, and sticking to the 66 books we all agree on) contains certain books, we need a strong authority to proclaim this, so as to put the vexed question to an end and for the sake or unity and theological order.

* * *

This doesn’t have to be infallible authority, but our claim is that the Catholic proclamation was indeed that, because that is how our authority works.
* * *
The problem for you and all Protestants is dealing with this state of affairs. Even assuming such authority was not infallible (as indeed you do), this does not get you out of your epistemological conundrum because you are still relying on the ecclesiastical authority to arrive at your conclusion of the nature and parameters of the biblical canon.
* * *
So, assuming it is a non-infallible proclamation, you are still (for some reason) adhering to it, save for the seven disputed books. If one steps back and ponders that, it is a rather odd state of affairs. If it was not an infallible pronouncement, then Protestants, by the very nature of their own system and rule of faith, would have the “right” to dissent against it. Yet they rarely do. Apart from some wild mostly early statements from Luther about several books and a few liberals, by and large, there has been no dispute. This means that the authoritative proclamation was in effect, accepted, even though it is regarded as itself fallible.
* * *
Logically, if there is no binding and infallible declaration, we should see a lot more latitude of opinion among Protestants. Martin Luther was arguably more consistent on this score than almost all Protestants subsequently.
* * *

Paul Althaus, in his Theology of Martin Luther (Philadelphia: Fortress Press, 1966, pp. 85, 336) opined:

* * *

He thereby established the principle that the early church’s formation and limitation of the canon is not exempt from re-examination . . . the canon is only a relative unity, just as it is only relatively closed. Therewith Luther has in principle abandoned every formal approach to the authority of the Bible. It is certainly understandable that Luther’s prefaces were no longer printed in German Bibles.
One may characterize his attitude in this way: The canon itself was, as far as Luther was concerned, a piece of ecclesiastical tradition and therefore subject to criticism on the basis of God’s word.
* * *
Lutheran Mark F. Bartling (WELS), in his informative paper, “Luther and James: Did Luther Use the Historical-Critical Method?” [no longer online at the URL I found], although unwilling to grant that Luther’s view amounted to subjectivism, arbitrariness, and liberal higher criticism, nevertheless, stated:
* * *

It must be admitted that Luther did develop a personal criterion of canonicity that took its place along side of apostolicity and universality (those books unanimously accepted by the early church, homologoumena) . . . It was, of all people, Carlstadt who condemned Luther for this criterion. Carlstadt said: “One must appeal either to known apostolic authorship or to universal historical acceptance as to the test of a book’s canonicity, not to internal doctrinal considerations.” [De Canonicis Scripturis libellus, Wittenberg, 1520, p. 50]. This position of Carlstadt was also the position of Martin Chemnitz and of C. F. W. Walther [Compendium Theologiae Positivae, Vol. I. p. 149].

* * *

Brooke Foss Westcott (1825-1901), the great biblical scholar, strongly disagreed with Luther, too:
* * *
The freshness and power of Luther’s judgments on the Bible, the living sense of fellowship with the spirit which animates them, the bold independence and self-assertion which separate them from all simply critical conclusions, combined to limit their practical acceptance to individuals. Such judgments rest on no definite external evidence. They cannot be justified by the ordinary rule and measure of criticism or dogma. No Church could rest on a theory which makes private feeling the supreme authority as to doctrine and the source of doctrine. As a natural consequence the later Lutherans abandoned the teaching of their great master on the written Word.
(A General Survey of the History of the Canon of the New Testament, 6th edition, 1889; reprinted by Baker Book House: Grand Rapids, Michigan, 1980, 483-484)
* * *

Luther was wrong, but he was self-consistent. For much, much more on Luther’s view of the canon, see my paper: “Luther’s Outrageous Assertions About Certain Biblical Books (Protestant Scholars’ Opinions and “Debate” With John Warwick Montgomery).”

* * *

I argue that Protestants are right (excepting the Deuterocanon) but for the wrong reasons, and inconsistent, because their notions of the canon clash with their rule of faith, sola Scriptura.
* * *
I would say that most Protestants (who, I strongly suspect, never think much about the issue, just as I didn’t much when I was a Protestant) accept it uncritically. Basically, they buy a Bible and certain books are in there and they accept that without further thought.

* * *

Those who do ponder and grapple with it, have not, I think, come up with an acceptable solution to the dilemma. Either flimsy, implausible arguments for a provisional, temporary Church authority are set forth, or they anachronistically apply our present “certainty” back to the early Church, or adopt the position that all biblical books are self-attesting (which has its own host of problems, and even if true, did not lead all early Christians to agreement on the canon).
* * *

Along with the irritating fact that sola Scriptura cannot be proven from Scripture Alone (which it has to be in order to sensibly hold as worthy of belief), the canon issue makes it a double whammy against the Protestant rule of faith: a position that has more logical holes in it than a pin cushion.

* * *

Couldn’t resist turning the tables:

* * *

the fallible cannot know it has identified and received the infallible. . . . After all, if the fallible cannot identify and receive the infallible and know it has done so, then Dave (being fallible) cannot know that the Roman communion is indeed infallible on matters of faith and practice.

* * *

[first of all, this is not my position in the first place, as can readily be seen above, particularly when I plainly answered the re-cited question “no”. My view has been distorted by Ron, as usual. The man can’t get it right where I am concerned, to save his life]
* * *

the fallible cannot know it has identified and received the infallible (let alone the inspired, which is a greater characteristic) . . . . After all, if the fallible cannot identify and receive the infallible (or the inspired) and know it has done so, then Protestants (being fallible) cannot know that Holy Scripture is indeed infallible on matters of faith and practice, and all matters, let alone inspired (God-breathed).

* * *

And this amounts to the theologically liberal position: the Scriptures are fallible and full of errors, therefore we shall pick and choose from it what we deem to be true and reject what we decide is false, outdated, a later textual addition, etc.

* * *

This is what one gets when they epistemologically (for the moment) reduce Christianity and Christian faith to mere philosophy. Protestant fundamentals fall right alongside Catholic ones, should these false and wrongheaded premises be adopted.
2017-05-25T19:31:15-04:00

Cover (555 x 838)

(10-28-13)

***

An anti-Catholic– in scholarly usage – is not merely a person who differs with Catholicism. Nor does it refer to someone who “hates” Catholics or opposes all things Catholic simply because they are Catholic. And it doesn’t refer to emotions or opposition to individuals, but rather, to Catholic theology.
The anti-Catholic is one who thinks that Catholicism is not a Christian system of theology and that to be a good Christian and get saved, one must be a bad Catholic; that is, reject several tenets of Catholicism that differ with Protestantism; or in the case of Orthodox anti-Catholics, with Orthodoxy.
But first let me introduce the man who is the subject of this book. James White (b. 1962) is a Reformed Baptist apologist, author, public speaker and debater, and elder at his church. He does many other things in his apologetics besides oppose Catholic theology, and many of these are good and worthwhile endeavors; for example, his critiques of Islam (his recent emphasis), the King James Only viewpoint, theological liberalism, Mormonism, and atheism.
By and large, in dealing with these topics, he does a good job, in my opinion, and I have often publicly commended him for it. When it comes to Catholicism, on the other hand, it’s quite a different story. In that domain he falls into the typical (and rather outrageous) errors of anti-Catholic thought.
Mr. White is the founder and director of Alpha and Omega Ministries, which began in 1983. In 1990 he started concentrating on critiquing Catholicism, and produced his first two books on the topic: The Fatal Flaw, and Answers to Catholic Claims (both by Crowne Publications: 1990). His other books (out of 26) that are devoted wholly or largely to Catholicism, include The Roman Catholic Controversy (1996), Mary – Another Redeemer? (1998), The God Who Justifies (2001), and Scripture Alone (2004): all published by Bethany House.
White obtained an M.A. Degree in theology from Fuller Theological seminary in 1989. During the mid-90s as the Internet began to flourish, he began devoting a lot of time and energy to that medium, and he started his weekly webcast, The Dividing Line, in September 1998. It often deals with Catholicism. He developed a website and blog, with voluminous writings, as well.
He is probably most known (and renowned) for his formal oral debates. According to his website he has done 117 of these, starting in August 1990, including 38 devoted to various Catholic beliefs: or 32% of all his debates. He engaged in more than one debate with apologists such as Fr. Mitch Pacwa (five), Robert Fastiggi (four), Tim Staples (three), and Patrick Madrid (two).
White also has challenged me to oral debate on three occasions: 1995, 2001, and 2007. Thus, he averages a request every six years (even though – oddly enough – he constantly asserts that I am a profound imbecile and ignoramus in theological and exegetical matters), and is due to ask me again before this year is out. Perhaps this book will be the impetus.
My answer was the same in every instance: I regard oral debates as vastly inferior to written debate and I don’t cultivate public speaking, in any event. I note that White is also a writer, whereas I am a writer only, so that the written medium is where we could and should best interact: the common ground.
“Debating” in the title of this volume is especially apt, as it highlights how Mr. White views himself and how he – by all appearances – especially wants to be known. I love debate and dialogue, myself, as a longtime socratic and apologist. Christian apologists (defenders of the faith: in either its Protestant, Catholic, or Orthodox forms) certainly debate; if they don’t, they are surely not apologists worth their salt.
The question at hand, however, is how to define a debate, what one’s intentions are in undertaking one, and whether the truth is being defended while debating.

Mr. White engages in habitual “boilerplate” regarding his debates and those who (for whatever reason) decline to participate in them with him. One very common theme is his notion that writers “hide behind their keyboards” – they are (he thinks) intellectual cowards and scared to death to face him — the Terrifying and Unanswerable Scourge of Catholics – behind a podium in a public oral debate. Here are three examples:

Dr. Stauffer: Brave Behind the Keyboard, Unwilling to Defend His Assertions (article title: 3-25-06 on his blog)
. . . Armstrong continues to refuse to debate man to man in person, and wishes only to hide behind his keyboard where he knows that no one, and I mean no one, can possibly force him to answer a direct question. As long as you can use the written forum, you can avoid the very essence of debate, the heart of debate, which is answering direct questions that test your position for consistency. Armstrong knows he is simply constitutionally incapable of the task, but he refuses to admit it, opting instead for this kind of rhetoric. (7-12-07 on his blog)
There are far too many folks who hide behind a keyboard on web forums . . . (2-3-09 on his blog)
Mr. White’s typical treatment of yours truly (since 1995) is clearly observed above. I will try as much as is possible in this book to avoid documenting his constant juvenile and sub-Christian resort to personal insult, so as not to afflict readers with silly tedium (I wish to stick solely to theological issues). But removing White’s ubiquitous insults of his Catholic opponents in written records is very often about as easy as removing the white stripe from a candy cane: it’s so intermingled as to be impossible to extricate from the substance. I’ll do my best! 
The other frequent and annoying theme with regard to Mr. White’s debates and his “spin” about them, is the notion that when an oral debate did occur and the other party didn’t make it available in his venue, this “proves” a tacit admission of defeat. Here’s an absolutely classic instance of that polemic, from a website article (9-18-00) reprinted on 12-28-12 on his blog:
I have seen my opponents use many tactics to cover over poor performances in debates. You will find documented on this website at least one imaginative approach taken by Catholic Answers back in 1993 when Patrick Madrid attempted to do damage control after our sola scriptura debate in San Diego by writing “The White Man’s Burden” in This Rock magazine . . . 
 
But never before have we seen such complete and utter admission of defeat than we are seeing from St. Joseph Communications regarding the July debate with Tim Staples on Papal Infallibility in Fullerton, California . . . 
 
. . . we have learned that Saint Joseph’sis still not selling the audio tapes of the debate, and that more than two months after the encounter. We have been making the tapes available since the week after the debate. We made it available as soon as we possibly could. . . . you cannot, as of today (September 18th, 2000), order the debate from Saint Joseph’s. Why not?
Of course, White has never ever linked to our own first lengthy 1995 “postal debate.” He gave me permission to post it on my website, but he has never linked to it. Thus, if we follow his reasoning above, how is that not an admission that he lost the debate (especially given the fact that he left my final 36-page single-spaced response utterly unanswered)? Otherwise, why wouldn’t he encourage folks read our exchange, so they can see how marvelously he allegedly did and how miserably I did?
White would respond that our exchange was not a debate in the first place, because it wasn’t moderated or live in front of an audience. It would be tough to argue with a straight face that a debate must always be oral and can never be in writing. That would take out, for example, many of the famous debates in the 16th century between Catholics and Protestants, such as those between Erasmus and Martin Luther, or John Calvin and Cardinal Sadoleto. It would also entail the absurd position that the ancient philosopher Plato wrote no dialogues or debates (often reconstructions of the great Socrates engaging in dialogue).
For my part, I have had a consistent track record in favor of written, point-by-point exchanges where two parties seriously interact with each other and engage in several rounds of back-and-forth response. I have participated in well over 700 of these on my blog and earlier website, since 1996 when I first went online. I wrote at length about the relative merits of oral and written debate in a website paper dated January 2001:
It is said that in a public, oral debate, obfuscation, or “muddying the waters” is minimized by the other person’s ability to correct errors immediately, and to “call” the opponent on this, that, or the other fact or argument. But this assumes that immediate, spur-of-the-moment corrections are more compelling than a correction which resulted from hours of careful research with primary sources, Scripture, etc. 
It is said that live oral debates are a better use of time; that things can be said quicker than they can in writing. But I respond that truth takes time to find and communicate. Propaganda, on the other hand (such as the norm of today’s political rhetoric) is very easy to quickly spout. Evangelicalism lends itself far more easily to shallow rhetoric and slogans; Catholicism does not. It is complex, nuanced, and requires much thought and study. And thought takes time, no matter how you slice the cake. Again, truth and the acquisition of knowledge and wisdom requires time. 
It is claimed that there is more interest in oral public debates. I’m not so sure about that, especially with the advent of the Internet, but perhaps this is true. In any event, that has no bearing on my own objections. It is not public debate per se I am opposed to, but the perversion of it by unworthy tactics and methods, which is the usual result when one is dealing with anti-Catholics. So I am actually supporting what I consider to be true debate, not the pale imitations of it which pass for “debates.” 
It is asserted that it’s harder to get away with lies and half-truths in the public arena. Quite the contrary, I would maintain; it is much easier to disinform and misinform, because one can put up an appearance of confidence and truth very easily, through rhetorical technique, catch-phrases, cleverness, playing to the crowd, etc. These things are by no means as “certain” as avid proponents of oral debate make them out to be. 
It is stated (by anti-Catholics) that Catholics don’t fare well in public oral debates. Under my thesis, I could readily agree with that. It is true that the Catholic faith is not conducive to an environment where sophistical carnival-barker, used-car salesman types try to distort, twist, and misrepresent it at every turn (and this need not be deliberate at all: it matters not — the end result is the same).
In an earlier paper (11-27-00) I wrote:
The Catholic position is not well-presented at such “debates” (i.e., public, oratorical ones) because it is complex, highly interrelated, and (in its complexity, spiritual profundity, and inner logic) much more a “thinking man’s religion” than Protestantism is. Presenting such an outlook can’t very easily be done in a time-limited debate where our opponent is playing the audience like a carnival barker or a dishonest politician. It can be done in a book or a lengthy article, or in a website which deals with all the interrelated topics (or at least links to them), so that the inquirer can learn how they are thoroughly biblical, coherent, and true to history (and development of doctrine is also another huge and crucial, necessary factor not easily summarized or even understood by many).
 
Again, it has to do with the complexity and interrelatedness of the Catholic position, and the difficulty in promulgating it in sound-bytes, as is the case in so many brands of evangelicalism. Websites are uniquely designed to teach the faith, if this complexity is granted (with the technology of links). I think the only near-equivalent to this in live debate would be a series of debates, one after the other, so that the faith can be seen in its many dimensions and in its marvelous cohesiveness: what I would call a “cumulative apologetic argument.”
 
In a debate about papal infallibility, for instance, it would be necessary to also have debates on apostolic succession, episcopacy, the nature of the Church, indefectibility, the nature of authority, NT teaching on Tradition, development of doctrine, the self-defeating nature of sola Scriptura, etc. I don’t think the average Protestant has any hope of understanding papal infallibility (and “problems” like the Honorius case) without some knowledge of these other presuppositional issues. 
 
In short, then, I think that any number of Catholic apologists could and would win such a debate on content (because our argument is true, and many apologists could convincingly present it), yet “lose” it in terms of impact on the audience, and in terms of the difficulty of persuading even those fair-minded or predisposed to be convinced of our side. We should take before and after surveys of people who attend these “debates” to see whether what I suspect is true or not (and make it a condition of the debate).
 
If we must debate these sophists and cynically clever men, at least we need to make sure they have to also defend their position and not just run ours down with the standard, garden-variety anti-Catholic gibberish, bolstered with “quasi-facts” and half-truths presented in a warped, distorted fashion. Those who don’t know any better will always be taken in by those tactics (which is exactly why anti-Catholics continue to use them, consciously or not).
 
Most public debate formats will not allow a fair exchange to occur, due to complexity of subject matter, and the stacked deck which requires us to defend complex truths, while the anti-Catholic escapes his responsibility of defending the generally unexamined absurdities and self-contradictions of his own position. Many anti-Catholics are never, ever willing to defend their own view beyond the usual trivial, sloganistic, sarcastic jibes.
 
It depends in large part on how one defines “debate” or being “good at it.” If by that is meant that a person is able to be quick on his feet and offer both objections and answers; sure, many anti-Catholics are (especially the more educated ones). If, however, one means by being a good debater, being honest with the facts and honestly dealing with one’s opponents best shots, most professional anti-Catholics are atrocious.
These are my opinions about the shortcomings of circus-like oral “debates” with anti-Catholic apologists, and the main rationale for why I don’t engage in them. If someone thinks that written debate is not debate, then this book is not for them, since it will mostly consist of written debates and point-by-point critiques. But for those who agree with me that written, back-and-forth, substantive exchanges are worthy of the name “debate,” this book will be a (hopefully helpful) close examination of the flawed theology of James White and his critiques of Catholicism. 
In fact, despite his “oral debate only” rhetoric, Mr. White has written or contributed to at least two books that consisted of debates with others: Debating Calvinism vs. Dave Hunt (Multnomah: 2004), and The Plurality of Elders in Perspectives on Church Government: Five Views of Church Polity (Broadman-Holman: 2004). He’s surely debated me, too. 
 
I’m happy, as always, to present both sides and let the reader judge. This is the beauty of dialogue or even non-dialogical exchanges where at least one person defends a true position. The truth will always shine through if one is open to following it wherever it may lead. White’s efforts at debunking Catholicism fail first and foremost because he is opposing what is true. “You can’t make a silk purse out of a sow’s ear.”
The material will be presented chronologically, and Mr. White’s words (excepting the first very long debate) will be italicized. If his position is so superior, it’ll withstand all this close scrutiny, But if not . . . 
* * * * *
 
2017-05-25T19:34:47-04:00

WorksofMercy
Works of Mercy (c. 1680), by Pierre Montallier (1643-1697) [public domain / Wikimedia Commons]

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(10-10-13)

***

This took place spontaneously in a Facebook post announcing a new paper of mine. Bethany is a very friendly evangelical with Calvinist leanings. Her words will be in blue.

* * * * *

We are justified by our faith and our works, and it is not of ourselves. It’s not a contradiction when James says we are justified by works, because if we are saved we will necessarily have works…

For example, you can’t control your own conception or birth, and Jesus metaphorically explained salvation as being “born again”.  A baby is born, not of his own will, but of God’s. A baby cannot will himself into existence, and neither can one dead in trespasses and sins will themselves into being made alive in Christ.

How do we know a baby is alive? By seeing if he is breathing, kicking, sucking, etc. By the baby’s works, we find evidence he has been born. This is the way we come to the conclusion that he is alive.

In the same way, our works “justify” in that they provide evidence for our rebirth. A baby can only be born once, and likewise one can be spiritually born only once.

We don’t disagree on those matters, as I noted.

So you don’t believe we in any way earn our salvation?  

We can’t earn our salvation by our own efforts, considered in isolation from God’s grace (the heresy of Pelagianism). We can, however merit in God’s sight by applying the gift of God that He gave us (as St. Augustine put it: God “crowning His own gifts”), and working together with Him. After regeneration and initial justification we can do meritorious works, enabled and bathed in God’s grace.

These are not abstractly separated from salvation and put in a neat little box of “sanctification only,” as Reformed and other Protestants do. Since true biblical justification is infused and transformative, works are part of justification.

Hence we find that, e.g., in 50 Bible passages I’ve found about the final judgment, only works are mentioned and never faith. One cannot help but to find that striking.

If they’re not completely separated from salvation, isn’t that saying they play a role in achieving salvation?

Yes, in the sense I said. The problem is that Protestants almost always misunderstand the exact sense that Catholics believe in. 90% of all such discussions require time spent simply explaining what we believe, because the misunderstandings are so massive and systematic.

If you read my recent paper vs. James White, I explain much of this in it. I wrote in the paper, citing one of my own books [Bible Proofs for Catholic Truths]:

For the Catholic, justification is not the same thing as salvation or the attainment of eternal life. It can be lost or rejected by means of human free will and disobedience. So, to assert “justification by works,” even in a qualified sense, is not at all the same as asserting salvation by works. Therefore, it is scripturally improper to assert either salvation by works alone or salvation by faith alone. They are never taught in Holy Scripture, and are both denied more than once. Justification by faith or justification by works can be asserted in a limited sense, as Scripture does: always understood as hand-in-hand with the other two elements in the grace-faith-works triumvirate.

Also from the paper:

Catholics believe we are justified by faith and also by grace-based works done by the regenerate believer in conjunction with faith, as a co-laborer with God (1 Cor 3:9; 15:10; 2 Cor 6:1). . . . The Bible elsewhere freely places Rahab’s faith and works together. They are of a piece: neither can or should be ignored:

Hebrews 11:31 [RSV] By faith Rahab the harlot did not perish with those who were disobedient, because she had given friendly welcome to the spies.

Notice the “because” in the verse? Moreover, it is not foreign Scripture, to expressly state that works are the cause of justification or even a central criterion for eternal life. We’ve already noted this in Paul, above. Here it is again (repetition being a good teaching device):

Romans 2:13 For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified.


So you don’t believe the works themselves in any way merit salvation, except in the sense Protestants believe… That our works are the fruit of our salvation and not our means of earning or keeping it?

I did read most of the article… Okay I skimmed it… But I do feel confused about what you’re saying because it sounds like you’re saying two things.

I have talked to many Catholics who believe that you must work in order to enter heaven… Not as a result of salvation but the cause of it. I once had a friend who I asked, if you were standing before God and he asked you why he should let you into heaven, what would you say? She replied, not mentioning Christ once, but listing her various works.

And she was very scriptural, because that is what the Bible always gives as a reason to enter heaven. I found 50 of these passages.

But in the case of Rahab the harlot, the Bible also refers to her faith, which was the cause of her works.

I will send you my book on salvation: e-book in a PM. I also have lots of material on my Justification and Salvation page that goes over all these sorts of questions.

Thanks Dave, I’ll read it.

If we can tell God that he should let us in on the basis of our works, then that nullifies, “lest any man should boast.”

Why does Scripture mention works only every time it discusses the last judgment and being let into heaven or sent to hell? Matthew 25 is the classic . . . I wouldn’t argue that this means faith is no factor, but the fact remains that it is absent in all those accounts. Therefore, works cannot be separated from the equation of final salvation. But they are always accompanied by faith and enabled by God’s free grace.

It’s not boasting about works, but showing one’s genuine faith via works, as in James; showing that it is a real faith and not dead, lifeless, unfruitful faith.

It’s showing faith that on the basis of works, and not Christs atonement, God should allow you into heaven though. The question was “why should I let you in heaven”. If the answer to “why” is “because I was good”, that is boasting in your works to enter heaven.

The Bible talks about works the same reason I say a baby is alive because of his works (breathing, crying, etc.) Could a baby boast that he breathes? Or cries? Those abilities only came through the credit of God. 

Whatever you call it; it’s scriptural. Our answer to God’s question of why we should go to heaven when we stand before Him, could incorporate any one or all of the following 50 responses: all perfectly biblical, and many right from the words of God Himself:

1) I am characterized by righteousness.
2) I have integrity.
3) I’m not wicked.
4) I’m upright in heart.
5) I’ve done good deeds.
6) I have good ways.
7) I’m not committing abominations.
8 ) I have good conduct.
9) I’m not angry with my brother.
10) I’m not insulting my brother.
11) I’m not calling someone a fool.
12) I have good fruits.
13) I do the will of God.
14) I hear Jesus’ words and do them.
15) I endured to the end.
16) I fed the hungry.
17) I provided drink to the thirsty.
18) I clothed the naked.
19) I welcomed strangers.
20) I visited the sick.
21) I visited prisoners.
22) I invited the poor and the maimed to my feast.
23) I’m not weighed down with dissipation.
24) I’m not weighed down with drunkenness.
25) I’m not weighed down with the cares of this life.
26) I’m not ungodly.
27) I don’t suppress the truth.
28) I’ve done good works.
29) I obeyed the truth.
30) I’m not doing evil.
31) I have been a “doer of the law.”
32) I’ve been a good laborer and fellow worker with God.
33) I’m unblamable in holiness.
34) I’ve been wholly sanctified.
35) My spirit and soul and body are sound and blameless.
36) I know God.
37) I’ve obeyed the gospel.
38) I’ve shared Christ’s sufferings.
39) I’m without spot or blemish.
40) I’ve repented.
41) I’m not a coward.
42) I’m not faithless.
43) I’m not polluted.
44) I’m not a murderer.
45) I’m not a fornicator.
46) I’m not a sorcerer.
47) I’m not an idolater.
48) I’m not a liar.
49) I invited the lame to my feast.
50) I invited the blind to my feast.


Where does Jesus get glory in all of that list?

It’s not boasting. We understand that it is from God. Yet we still did them, working with God’s grace, as Paul says: “working together with him . . . ” “Boasting” in the sense that Paul condemns would be saying that “I did these works with no help from God’s grace at all; therefore I have earned heaven.” That is the Pelagian heresy.

What he did on Calvary just seems ignored… And that is my main problem. He became sin for us. All of our sin was laid on him. By his stripes we were healed. Sin was inputed to him, and righteousness was imputed to us.

He gets the glory as the source of the grace that enabled all the works. This is what the Bible says: all that is straight from biblical accounts. If you say it is not giving God glory then your beef is with the Bible itself and Jesus and Paul’s and other’s words, not with Catholicism. Read Jesus’ words in Matthew 25:

Matthew 25:31-46 When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, and he will place the sheep at his right hand, but the goats at the left. Then the King will say to those at his right hand, `Come, O blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’ Then the righteous will answer him, `Lord, when did we see thee hungry and feed thee, or thirsty and give thee drink? And when did we see thee a stranger and welcome thee, or naked and clothe thee? And when did we see thee sick or in prison and visit thee?’ And the King will answer them, `Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me.’ Then he will say to those at his left hand, `Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels; for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ Then they also will answer, `Lord, when did we see thee hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to thee?’ Then he will answer them, `Truly, I say to you, as you did it not to one of the least of these, you did it not to me.’ And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.

But notice that the sheep asked him, when did we do these things? They did not recall their goodness for merit. 

I hope you know I’m not trying to be annoying with these questions. 

You’re not interacting with the biblical data . . . . this was the same problem with White’s chapter. He read into the text things that weren’t there, whereas I exegeted it and gave relevant cross-references.

When we stand before a righteous and holy God, can we really see ourselves as righteous except by his imputed righteousness? Isaiah cried, I am a man of unclean lips… Was he not a righteous man?

Yes, and now you’ve stumbled into why purgatory is so necessary. Thanks! We make it to heaven because we’ve exercised faith by God’s grace, in Jesus; accepting His death on the cross on our behalf; exhibited by works. Now we have to be made actually holy and without sin, and that’s where purgatory is necessary for almost all of us.

No; that is the reason that atonement is necessary. That is why when God asks, “why should I let you into heaven?” I can say , “thank you for providing a lamb to take place of me, taking on the full penalty for all of my sins, so that I could enter heaven. Thank you for your promise, your free gift.” Purgatory implies that Jesus payment was not enough.

You can say that; sure. My point was that whenever Scripture deals with this exact topic, that is never what it describes as being said; rather, it’s always works. And that is what you have to grapple with: why that is. The same Jesus also said:

Matthew 7:16-23 You will know them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thorns, or figs from thistles? [17] So, every sound tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears evil fruit. [18] A sound tree cannot bear evil fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. [19] Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. [20] Thus you will know them by their fruits. [21] “Not every one who says to me, `Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. [22] On that day many will say to me, `Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ [23] And then will I declare to them, `I never knew you; depart from me, you evildoers.’

Ok well I will agree to disagree for now.

Like I said, you’re not disagreeing with me, but multiple instances of inspired Scripture. All I’ve done is cite Scripture on this. James explains all of this nicely, and that was the topic of White’s chapter that I replied to:

James 2:14-26 What does it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith but has not works? Can his faith save him? [15] If a brother or sister is ill-clad and in lack of daily food, [16] and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what does it profit? [17] So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead. [18] But some one will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I by my works will show you my faith. [19] You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe — and shudder. [20] Do you want to be shown, you shallow man, that faith apart from works is barren? [21] Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? [22] You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works, [23] and the scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness”; and he was called the friend of God. [24] You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. [25] And in the same way was not also Rahab the harlot justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way? [26] For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead.

Echoed by Paul:

Romans 2:5-13 But by your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God’s righteous judgment will be revealed. [6] For he will render to every man according to his works: [7] to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; [8] but for those who are factious and do not obey the truth, but obey wickedness, there will be wrath and fury. [9] There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, [10] but glory and honor and peace for every one who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek. [11] For God shows no partiality. [12] All who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law. [13] For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified.

I’m sorry I realized that sounded abrupt. I didn’t mean it to sound that way. I had a baby crying in the background so had to tend to him.

We have both cited Scripture. You more than me since I was basically asking questions, but I agree with all the scripture you post. We have disagreement on the interpretation of those scriptures. You agree there, I’m sure.

No problem, Bethany!

*****
2025-05-01T13:21:35-04:00

Cover (555 x 838)

[Nov. 2013; 395 pages. See full book and purchase information]
*****
[James White informed me in a letter dated 10 January 2001 that he was a bishop: “I am an elder in the church: hence, I am a bishop, overseer, pastor, of a local body of believers”. So I have called him that ever since [see more material giving the background and rationale for this, based on White’s own stated beliefs]. As for his supposed doctorate (hence my quotation marks and question mark), see the appropriate section below. Thus we have the double irony of his not wanting to be called what he claims he is (a bishop), while he falsely calls himself what he clearly isn’t (an academic “Doctor” with an authentic, earned doctorate degree]
***
TABLE OF CONTENTS
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I. BASIC ISSUES / ANTI-CATHOLICISM / THE GREAT DEBATE

II. BIBLE AND TRADITION / SOLA SCRIPTURA / RULE OF FAITH / CRITIQUE OF MY BOOK, THE CATHOLIC VERSES

III. CHRISTOLOGY

IV. DEBATE CHALLENGES (WHITE’S PERSISTENT REFUSAL TO ENGAGE IN WRITTEN OR “LIVE CHAT” DEBATE)

V. EUCHARIST / SACRIFICE OF THE MASS
VI. THE BLESSED VIRGIN MARY
VII. THE PAPACY / COUNCIL OF NICAEA / ECCLESIOLOGY / DEVELOPMENT OF DOCTRINE
VIII. PURGATORY AND TEMPORAL PUNISHMENT / PENANCE
IX. APOLOGETIC METHODOLOGY / PRESUPPOSITIONALISM 
X. SOTERIOLOGY / SALVATION / TULIP / JUSTIFICATION / FAITH AND WORKS

XI. CRITIQUE OF MY BOOK, THE ONE-MINUTE APOLOGIST

XII. COMMUNION OF SAINTS / INVOCATION OF SAINTS
XIII. FAKE “DOCTORATE” / TEACHING CREDENTIALS

XIV. INSULTS AND AD HOMINEM ATTACKS 

XV. ANALYSES OF CONVERSION TO CATHOLICISM

XVI. MISCELLANEOUS

XVII. BAPTISM AND SACRAMENTALISM

***

***

I. BASIC ISSUES / ANTI-CATHOLICISM / THE GREAT DEBATE


Is Catholicism Christian or Not? [“Postal Debate”: March-May 1995]

Part I: Introduction and My Initial Form Letter (23 March 1995)

Part II: Mr. White’s 7-Page Initial Reply (6 April 1995)

Part III: My 16-Page First Counter-Reply (22 April 1995)

Part IV: Mr. White’s 17-Page Second Counter-Reply (4 May 1995)

Part V: My 36-Page Second Counter-Reply (15 May 1995) and Mr. White’s One-Page “Reply” (10 November 1995)

My Four Ballyhooed Debates w Anti-Catholics (All Forfeited): My Opponent Split Before It Was Over, Every Time (!) [5-21-20]

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II. BIBLE AND TRADITION / SOLA SCRIPTURA / RULE OF FAITH / CRITIQUE OF MY BOOK, THE CATHOLIC VERSES

Dialogue on “Perspicuous Apostolic Teaching” [May-June 1996]

“Moses’ Seat” & Jesus vs. Sola Scriptura [12-27-03]

Jerusalem Council vs. Sola Scriptura [9-2-04]

James White Critiques My Book, The Catholic Verses (Introduction) [12-29-04]:

Part I: Binding Tradition [12-30-04]

Part II: Rabbit Trail Diversion [12-30-04]

Part III: Ad Hominem [12-31-04]

Part IV: I’m an Ignorant Convert? [12-31-04]

Part V: Deceiver Dave [1-1-05]

Part VI: Penance and Redemptive Suffering [1-2-05]

Refutation of James White: Moses’ Seat, the Bible, and Tradition (Introduction: #1) (+Part II | Part III | Part IV | Part V | Part VI) [5-12-05]

The Catholic Verses: James White Ain’t Got a Clue [10-1-07]

St. Athanasius Was a CATHOLIC, Not a Proto-Protestant (+ Counter-Reply to James White on Tradition, etc.) [12-26-07]

Vs. James White #2: Sola Scriptura Debate w Matatics, Pt. 1 [9-17-19]

Vs. James White #3: Sola Scriptura Debate w Matatics, Pt. 2 [9-18-19]

Rome, the Biblical Canon, & Tradition (vs. Turretinfan & James White) . . . Observed in the Views of John of Damascus (aka John Damascene: c. 676-749) [11-7-19]

Vs. James White #10: Arbitrary Tradition Re the Canon [11-14-19]

Vs. James White #14: Word of God / the Lord Usually Oral (+ White’s Own Erroneous Definition of Sola Scriptura in 1990 (at the same time I got it right) [11-18-19]

Vs. James White #16: St. Basil Held to Sola Scriptura? [11-19-19]

I Refuted James White’s Favorite Defenses of Sola Scriptura [11-11-19; expanded on 5-11-20]

Hebrews 10:12, Vulgate, & the Mass (James White’s Lie) [9-3-21]

“Reformed Biblicism”: Reply to James White [8-17-22]

Jerusalem Council Disproves Sola Scriptura (vs. James White) [2-28-24]

Church Fathers & Sola Scriptura: Reply To James White Claims: Myths Regarding Cyprian, Augustine, Basil the Great, John Chrysostom, Cyril of Jerusalem, Athanasius [3-16-24]

Comment: James White vs. Tim Staples on the Rule Of Faith (Including St. Athanasius’ Rule of Faith & the Indefectibility of the OT “Proto-Church”) [5-9-24]

Debate On Sola Scriptura (vs. Bishop “Dr.” [?] James White) [5-13-24]

Reply to James White On Oral Tradition [5-13-24]

Sola Scriptura: Reply to James White (Akin Debate) [5-16-24]

Luther, Church Offices, + Swan’s & White’s Ignorance [6-11-24]

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III. CHRISTOLOGY

Who’s Ignorant: “Schizo Jesus” or Bishop James White? [10-19-22]

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IV. DEBATE CHALLENGES (WHITE’S PERSISTENT REFUSAL TO ENGAGE IN WRITTEN OR “LIVE CHAT” DEBATE)

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V. EUCHARIST / SACRIFICE OF THE MASS

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Sacrifice of the Mass & Hebrews 8 (vs. James White) [3-31-04]

Vs. James White #5: Real Eucharistic Presence or Symbolism? [9-20-19]


VI. THE BLESSED VIRGIN MARY

*

Assumption & Immaculate Conception: Part of Apostolic Tradition (dialogue) [June 1996]

“Live Chat” Debate on Mary (vs. James White) [12-29-00; “footnotes” added shortly afterwards]

Critique of Mary — Another Redeemer? by James White (Whitewashing History: By William Possidento and Dave Armstrong) [3-12-04; slight revisions and updated links: 6-12-20] 

Defense of Critique of Jame’s White’s Misinformed Mariology (particularly with regard to the differing views on early Mariology of Protestant Church historians J.N.D. Kelly and Philip Schaff) (vs. James Swan) [3-15-04 and 9-7-05]

“Marian Stains”: “Dr.” [???] James White Gets His Wish! [4-23-05] 

Mary Mediatrix and the Church Fathers (+ Documentation That White Accepts the Scholarship of the Protestant Church Historians I Cite [J. N. D. Kelly and Philip Schaff] ) [9-7-05] 

James White’s Relentless Sophistry in Our Live Chat on Mariology [12-2-07]

Perpetual Virginity of Mary Mocked by James White [3-18-17]

Vs. James White #12: Mary the Woman of Revelation 12 [11-7-19]

My Four Ballyhooed Debates w Anti-Catholics (All Forfeited): My Opponent Split Before It Was Over, Every Time (!) [5-21-20]

A “Biblical” Immaculate Conception? (vs. James White) [8-27-21]

The Queen Mother & the Bible (vs. James White) [10-8-21]

Quick Refutation of James White Re Praying to Mary [Facebook, 5-10-24]

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VII. THE PAPACY / COUNCIL OF NICAEA / ECCLESIOLOGY / DEVELOPMENT OF DOCTRINE

*
*
*
*
*

Vs. James White #1: “Papal Pretensions” & “New” Apologists [9-16-19]

James White: Hypocritical Use of “Roman Catholic Church” [11-11-19]

Vs. James White #15: Canon & “Catholic” Traditions [11-18-19]

Thoughts: James White & Cameron Bertuzzi & Catholicism (Primarily Concerning the Papacy) [5-17-22]

Odd James White View Re Matthew 16:19 & the “Keys” [8-15-22]

Yes, James White; the Pope Is Infallible, Now, Just As He Always Has Been (I Educate Him as to Where Caving on the Nature of Marriage Has Actually Occurred) [Facebook, 2-26-24]

Quick Refutation of James White Re Papal Infallibility in the Bible [Facebook, 5-10-24]

Peter the Rock: Only a Catholic View? (vs. James White) [Includes Documentation of 14 Church Fathers Who Thought Peter Was the Rock] [5-11-24]

*

VIII. PURGATORY AND TEMPORAL PUNISHMENT / PENANCE
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IX. APOLOGETIC METHODOLOGY / PRESUPPOSITIONALISM 
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X. SOTERIOLOGY / SALVATION / TULIP / JUSTIFICATION / FAITH AND WORKS
*
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XI. CRITIQUE OF MY BOOK, THE ONE-MINUTE APOLOGIST

 

XII. COMMUNION OF SAINTS / INVOCATION OF SAINTS
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XIII. FAKE “DOCTORATE” / TEACHING CREDENTIALS

James White’s Bogus “Doctorate” Degree (vs. Mark Bainter) [9-16-04]

James White’s Bogus “Doctorate” Degree, Part II (vs. Jamin Hubner) [6-29-10]

James White Bogus “Doctorate” Issue Redux: Has No One Ever Interacted With His Self-Defense? / White Takes His Lumps from Baptist Peter Lumpkins [2-20-11]

Doktor James White on Fudging His Teaching Assignments (by Baptist Peter Lumpkins; see also my Facebook link and further comments and documentation in that combox) [3-23-11]

James White Compared to Adjunct Faculty Members at Golden Gate Baptist Theological Seminary [3-27-11; at Internet Archive]

James White’s “Doctorate”: Dialogue w Seminary’s Rick Walston [4-5-13]

James White is Working on a Doctorate? Huh?! [Facebook, 8-16-22]

***

The Fake Degree of James White, A Cautionary Tale (You Tube Video by Dr. David A. Falk, an Egyptologist)

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XIV. INSULTS AND  AD HOMINEM ATTACKS 

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XVII. BAPTISM AND SACRAMENTALISM

Sacramentalism: James White Proves Augustine & Luther Aren’t Christians [original title: “Man-Centered” Sacramentalism: The Remarkable Incoherence of James White: How Can Martin Luther and St. Augustine Be Christians According to His Definition?] [11-26-03] 

Baptismal Regeneration: Refutation of James White [8-27-21]

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Last updated on 6 March 2025
2025-05-01T12:27:20-04:00

Front Cover (555 x 834)
(December 2012, 205 pages)
[see complete information and purchase options; this book will shortly be available for free online]
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Disclaimer


I highly urge more mainstream “traditionalists” who read any of the papers listed below, to first read my paper:  Definitions: Radical Catholic Reactionaries, Mainstream “Traditionalists,” and Supposed “Neo-Catholics” (Chapter One of my book, Mass Movements: Radical Catholic Reactionaries, the New Mass, and Ecumenism), and also my Introduction to this book, as well as my article, Radical Catholic Reactionaries: What They Are Not. This will preclude needless misunderstandings regarding exactly what I am against, and what I agree with. I am not “against” mainstream “traditionalism.” Thanks! I wrote in my Chapter One, linked above:

I have much in common with “traditionalists”. I admire several things about them: . . . I am usually in agreement with “traditionalists” and consider myself a close ally to them. We disagree on some things, but this is far less than the agreement and unity that is present.. . . I don’t share all of their particular concerns or analyses. Nevertheless, I feel quite close to them, and a strong kinship or affinity.
Also, for a very helpful, thoughtful treatment of the general topic, written by my friend David Palm, the self-described “reluctant traditionalist,” see his essay, What is Traditional Catholicism? I don’t agree with absolutely everything he writes, but I think this is a good aid for drawing the necessary distinctions that are so crucial in discussing these matters.
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See also: Errors of Radical Catholic Reactionaries (Collection): 33 archived older papers (Internet Archive) on almost all the topics below

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TABLE OF CONTENTS

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I. LEGITIMATE CATHOLIC TRADITIONALISM

II. CORDIAL, CONSTRUCTIVE DIALOGUES WITH ONE PETER FIVE EDITOR TIMOTHY FLANDERS

III. RADICAL CATHOLIC REACTIONARIES

IV. THE REMNANT / CHRIS FERRARA / MICHAEL MATT

V. STEVE SKOJEC  (FORMER ONE PETER FIVE EDITOR)

VI. ONE PETER FIVE SITE

VII. DR. PETER KWASNIEWSKI

VIII. FRANK PAVONE LAICIZATION

IX. HILARY WHITE (LIFESITE NEWS / THE REMNANT

X. LOUIE VERRECCHIO (AKA CATHOLIC)

XI. TERMINOLOGY ISSUES: RADICAL CATHOLIC REACTIONARIES AND THE DISCARDED RADTRAD

XII. TERMINOLOGY ISSUES: NEO-CATHOLIC

XIII. TRIDENTINE MASS AND “NEW” (PAULINE) MASS / LITURGICAL DISPUTES

XIV. TRADITIONIS CUSTODES
XV. VATICAN II
XVI. POPE-BASHING
XVII. AMORIS LAETITIA
XVIII. ECUMENISM AND SALVATION “OUTSIDE” THE CATHOLIC CHURCH
XIX. TAYLOR MARSHALL AND HIS BOOK, INFILTRATION: THE PLOT TO DESTROY THE CHURCH FROM WITHIN

XX. MICHAEL VORIS (CHURCH MILITANT)

XXI. ERRORS OF ROBERT SUNGENIS 
XXII. SEDEVACANTISM
XXIII. THE EXCOMMUNICATED ARCHBISHOP CARLO MARIA VIGANO 

XXIV. BISHOP ATHANASIUS SCHNEIDER

XXV. BISHOP EMERITUS JOSEPH STRICKLAND

XXVI. “PACHAMAMA” ALLEGED IDOLATRY AT THE AMAZON SYNOD / “MOTHER EARTH” / CORONAVIRUS & ALLEGED JUDGMENT

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I. LEGITIMATE CATHOLIC TRADITIONALISM

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Dietrich von Hildebrand & Legitimate Traditionalism (2-27-02; terminology and a few other minor things revised on 4-18-20)

Why Not Kick Modernist Dissenters Out of the Church? [3-7-02]

Sunny Optimism re God’s Guidance of His Church [7-22-11]

Am I a Catholic Traditionalist? (You Decide!) [8-7-13]

Dialogue with Traditionalist “Boniface” Regarding Modernism in the Church [8-16-13]

Crisis in the Church: What to Do About It? [9-12-13]

Conciliation: “Traditionalists” and Other Orthodox Catholics [9-20-13] 

On Catholic Hyper-Rationalism & Manufactured “Crises” [12-28-13]

Swishy Bishops, Liberal Dissidents, and “PR” Regarding Pope Francis [10-6-14]

On Traditionalist Use of “Conservative Catholic” [5-8-15]

Do “Right” and “Left” Properly Apply (by Analogy) to an Ecclesiastical Spectrum as well as to Political Analysis? [9-13-15]

Indefectibility, Fear, & the Synod on the Family [9-30-15]

Traditionalism & Apologetics: Allies or Enemies? [1-12-16]

Douthat’s Flawed Critique of “Conservative” Catholicism [3-2-16]

Kevin M. Tierney Trashes Scott Eric Alt, Keating, Madrid et al, and Apologetics [Facebook, 7-1-16]

Traditionalist Fr. Chad Ripperger Critiques Traditionalism [7-21-21]

On the Last Three Popes’ Appointments of Cardinals: Traditionalists Have a Valid Point About Bad Appointments and the Disastrous Appeasement of Theological Liberals in the Church [7-18-22]

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II. CORDIAL, CONSTRUCTIVE DIALOGUES WITH ONE PETER FIVE EDITOR TIMOTHY FLANDERS

Reply to Timothy Flanders’ Defense of Taylor Marshall [7-8-19]

Dialogue w Ally of Taylor Marshall, Timothy Flanders [7-17-19]

Dialogue w 1P5 Writer Timothy Flanders: Introduction [2-1-20]

Dialogue w Timothy Flanders #2: State of Emergency? [2-25-20]

Alexander Tschugguel, Taylor Marshall, & God’s Wrath [3-19-20]

Is Vatican II Analogous to “Failed” Lateran Council V? [8-11-20]

Dialogue #6 w 1P5 Columnist Timothy Flanders [8-24-20]

Comments on My Ongoing Dialogue with One Peter Five Columnist Timothy Flanders, On His Site [Facebook, 11-2-20]

Dialogue #7 w 1P5 Columnist Timothy Flanders (Highlighting Papal Indefectibility, Pastor Aeternus from Vatican I in 1870, & the “Charitable Anathema”) [12-1-20]

Pastor Aeternus (1870): Can a Pope Ever Make Heresy Binding? (Dr. Robert Fastiggi and Ron Conte; edited by Dave Armstrong, in Response to Timothy Flanders) [12-1-20]

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III. RADICAL CATHOLIC REACTIONARIES
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Syllabus of 60 Radical Catholic Reactionary Errors [2000]

Debate: My “Syllabus of 60 Catholic Reactionary Errors” [11-24-00]

Radical Catholic Reactionaries vs. an Optimistic Faith [1-21-01]

Dietrich von Hildebrand & Legitimate Traditionalism (2-27-02; terminology and a few other minor things revised on 4-18-20)

Radical Catholic Reactionaries: Essential Characteristics [2002] [ch. 1 of my free online book, Reflections on Radical Catholic Reactionaries]

Indefectibility of Holy Mother Church: Believe It Or Not [2002]

Faith and Optimism vs. Reactionary Gloomy Pessimism [2002]

Books by Dave Armstrong: Reflections on Radical Catholic Reactionaries [Dec. 2002; revised edition: 8-17-13]

2nd Conversion? Reactionary Absurdities Satirized [10-7-03]

Catholic Fundamentalism & “Insufficiently Converted Catholics” [2-21-06]

Pensées on Radical Catholic Reactionaries [1-5-13]

Pope Francis, Foot-Washing, & Humility (Pete Vere & Dave Armstrong) [3-13-13 and 3-30-13]

Rorate Caeli‘s Pope-Basher, Marcelo González: Holocaust Revisionist [4-8-13]

Why I am Critical of Radical Catholic Reactionaries [8-20-13]

Provocative (?) Thoughts on Radical Catholic Reactionaries [8-23-13]

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Pope Francis on Cardinal Burke [Facebook, 12-8-14]
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Private Judgment & “Cafeteria Catholics” [Ch. 6 of my book, Reflections on Radical Catholic Reactionaries (December 2002; slightly revised in November 2023 for the purpose of the free online version) ] [11-19-23]
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Fundamentalists & Insufficiently Converted Catholics [Ch. 7 of my book, Reflections on Radical Catholic Reactionaries (December 2002; slightly revised in November 2023 for the purpose of the free online version) ] [11-19-23]
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The Quasi-Schismatic Mentality [Ch. 16 of my book, Reflections on Radical Catholic Reactionaries (December 2002; slightly revised in November 2023 for the purpose of the free online version) ] [11-28-23]
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IV. THE REMNANT / CHRIS FERRARA / MICHAEL MATT
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“The Remnant” Winks at Anti-Semitic Hatred [10-12-17; revised on 9-16-20]
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Chris Ferrara & My Debates w Keating & Lawler Re Pope Francis [1-1-18 and 1-2-18; minor additions and changes: 9-25-20]
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V. STEVE SKOJEC  (FORMER ONE PETER FIVE EDITOR)
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VI. ONE PETER FIVE SITE
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VII. DR. PETER KWASNIEWSKI
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Dialogue: “Bad” Bishops & “Confusing” Francis (vs. Dr. Peter Kwasniewski) [4-28-16]
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Dialogue with a Traditionalist Regarding Deaconesses (vs. Dr. Peter Kwasniewski) [5-13-16]
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VIII. FRANK PAVONE LAICIZATION
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IX. HILARY WHITE (LIFESITE NEWS / THE REMNANT

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Hilary White Wants to Trash & Bury Vatican II; I Defend It [6-16-14]

Hilary White: Radical Catholic Reactionary Extraordinaire [2-13-16]

Debate with Hilary White: Masonic “Bergoglianism” or Catholicism? [2-16-16]

Hilary White & Reactionary Language & “Reasoning” [2-27-16]

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X. LOUIE VERRECCHIO (AKA CATHOLIC)
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XI. TERMINOLOGY ISSUES: RADICAL CATHOLIC REACTIONARIES AND THE DISCARDED RADTRAD

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Radical Catholic Reactionaries: Essential Characteristics [2002] [ch. 1 of my free online book, Reflections on Radical Catholic Reactionaries]

“Radtrad”: Origins, History, & Debates on Definition [3-18-13; rev. 8-1-13 and 8-8-13]

On the Use of “Traditionalist” Preceding the Name of “Catholic”  [7-3-13]

Pope Francis & Pope Benedict XVI Refer to “Extreme Traditionalism” [8-5-13]

Thoughts on the Discarded Term, Radtrad (and on the Discussion About Ditching It, and Attacks on My Sincerity) [8-6-13]

Definitions: Radical Catholic Reactionaries, Mainstream “Traditionalists,” and Supposed “Neo-Catholics” [revised 8-6-13]

Rationales for My Self-Coined Term, “Radical Catholic Reactionaries” [8-6-13]

“Traditionalist” Concerns Over Labeling and Classifications (Karl Keating’s Word Usage as a “Test Case”) [8-8-13]

My Coined Term, “Radical Catholic Reactionary”: Clarifications [10-5-17]

I Coined “Reactionary” [Catholic], Not Michael Voris [2-1-18]

Keating & Double Standards on “Traditionalist” Labeling [6-3-18]

Clarifying My Coined Term, “Radical Catholic Reactionary” [4-3-20]

Definition of “Radical Catholic Reactionary”: Dialogue (With Particular Reference to [Traditionalist] Timothy Gordon) [9-6-20]

Title: “Radical Catholic Reactionaries”: Exchange w Karl Keating [3-4 December 2020]

Radical Catholic Reactionaries: What They Are Not [9-28-21]

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Neo-Catholic (Silly Radical Catholic Reactionary Term) [4-21-05]

Objections to the Reactionary Epithet Neo-Catholic [3-9-07] 

Debate: Am I a Neo-Catholic? (Defined as Theological Liberal / Progressive / Enabler of Modernism) [vs. Mr. X] [6-11-14]

Dialogue: Meaning of “Neo-Catholic” (w Phillip Campbell) [11-27-20]

So-Called “Neo-Catholics” [Ch. 4 of my book, Reflections on Radical Catholic Reactionaries (December 2002; revised in November 2023 for the free online version). [11-17-23]

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XIII. TRIDENTINE MASS AND “NEW” (PAULINE) MASS / LITURGICAL DISPUTES
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What Can Laypeople Do Regarding Liturgical Abuses? [2-19-08]

“New” / Ordinary Form / Pauline Mass: a Traditional Defense (with Massive Historical Documentation, + Summary of Vatican II on Liturgical Reform) [6-18-08]

Reactionary & Traditionalist Reaction to Summorum Pontificum [6-23-08]

Dialogue on Method of Communion & Liturgical Development (vs. David Palm) [6-25-08]

Can Communion in the Hand be Equally Reverent? [7-13-11]

Death of the Reform of the Reform of the Liturgy? (The Reports are Greatly Exaggerated: Dr. Peter Kwasniewski & Fr. Thomas Kocik vs. Pope Benedict XVI?)  [+ Part Two] [2-24-14] 

Karl Keating on the Underlying Causes of Residual Prejudice Against the Tridentine Mass (+ a Defense of Vatican II in the Combox) [Facebook, 3-8-14] 

Two Forms of One Rite (Pope Benedict XVI) [11-4-15]

Critique of Criticisms of the New Mass [11-5-15]

Worshiping the TLM vs. Worshiping God Through It [12-16-15]

Ratzinger “Banal” Quote: Traditionalist & Reactionary Misuse (Regarding the Ordinary Form Mass) [12-17-15]

Pope Francis Foot-Washing Controversy Redux [3-26-16]

Dialogue with a Traditionalist Regarding Deaconesses (vs. Dr. Peter Kwasniewski) [5-13-16]

Superstition About the “Preserved” High Altar at Notre Dame (And Continued Cynical, Highly Selective, “Pick and Choose” Acceptance of the Teaching of Pope Benedict XVI) [4-17-19]

Bishop Schneider: No Jesus Better than Hand-Communion [3-14-20]

Communion in the Hand: Reactionaries vs. St. Cyril [3-15-20]

Is God Judging the World for Communion in the Hand? [4-13-20]

We Attended an Extraordinary Form [Tridentine] Mass Today [Facebook, 8-30-20]

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XIV. TRADITIONIS CUSTODES

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Pope Francis’ Traditionis Custodes is for the Sake of Unity [7-16-21]

Skojec Loathes Traditionis; Illustrates Why it is Necessary [7-19-21]

Catholics (?) Trash, Judge, & Mind-Read the Pope (In 1968, “all” the liberal Catholics rejected Humanae Vitae. Now in 2021, “all” the self-described “conservative” Catholics reject Traditionis Custodes — and none see the outright absurdity and irony of this) [7-20-21]

Traditionis Custodes: Sky Hasn’t Fallen (Bishops) [8-2-21]

Dialogue w Traditionalist “Hurt” by Traditionis Custodes [8-2-21]

Traditionis Custodes Results: No Fallen Sky (I Called It) [9-6-21]

Traditionis Custodes: Sky Still Intact After Two Months [9-14-21]

Traditionis Custodes: Sky is Here After Four Months! (Reports of the Death of the TLM Have Been — Like Mark Twain’s Death Before He Actually Died — Greatly Exaggerated) [11-17-21]

Vatican Further Tightens Restrictions on the TLM: A Few Thoughts [Facebook, 12-18-21]

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XV. VATICAN II

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Infallibility, Councils, and Levels of Church Authority: Explanation of the Subtleties of Church Teaching and Debate with Several Radical Catholic Reactionaries [7-30-99; terminology updated, and a few minor changes made on 7-31-18] 

Dialogue: Vatican II & Other Religions (Nostra Aetate) [8-1-99]

Cdl Ratzinger (Pope Benedict XVI): Vatican II Authority = Trent [5-20-05]

Dialogue: Do Vatican II & Ecumenism Discourage Converts? [Sep. 2009]

Radical Catholic Reactionaries and Vatican II [Facebook discussion, 8-17-13]

Dialogue on Vatican II: Interpretation, and Application (with Patti Sheffield vs. traditionalist David Palm) [9-20-13]

Karl Keating on the Underlying Causes of Residual Prejudice Against the Tridentine Mass (+ a Defense of Vatican II in the Combox) [Facebook, 3-8-14]

Vatican II Defended Against Reactionary (and Some Traditionalist) Charges [4-25-14; expanded and re-edited: 1-23-17]

Defense of Vatican II and Ecumenism (Dave Armstrong and Paul Hoffer vs. Tony Jokin) [Facebook discussion thread, 12-18-14]

Apologia for Vatican II / Misguided Reactionary Criticisms [8-17-15]

Defending Ecumenism and Vatican II vs. Reactionary Catholics [8-10-17]

Indefectibility, Reactionaries, Vatican II, & Defectibility [?] of the Church [Facebook, 10-27-17]

Popes Leading the Church Into False Doctrine (E.g., Paul VI) (+ Facebook discussion) [3-8-18]

Douthat’s Pope-Bashing Book Attacks Vatican II [3-24-18]

Catholic (?) Vatican II-Bashing: Cutting Thru the Crap [4-25-19]

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Series: Vs. Paolo Pasqualucci Re Vatican II
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Vatican II Upheld Biblical Inerrancy (vs. David Palm) [4-23-20]
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“Pre-Conciliar” Church: the “Good Old Days” [Ch. 8 of my book, Reflections on Radical Catholic Reactionaries (December 2002; slightly revised in November 2023) [11-21-23]
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Is Vatican II a “Modernist” Council? [Ch. 11 of my book, Reflections on Radical Catholic Reactionaries (December 2002; revised in November 2023 for the purpose of the free online version)] [11-22-23]
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XVI. POPE-BASHING
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“Nothing New”: Reactionary Attacks on Pope St. John Paul II [4-9-05; with tie-in endnote added on 3-2-18]
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Is Pope Francis Guilty of Mariological Heresy Tradition (His Comments on the Possible Momentary Temptation of Mary at the Cross) [1-19-14]

Who’s Defending Pope Benedict’s  Summorum Pontificum Now? [2-26-14]

Does Pope Francis Think that Jesus Was a Sinner? (. . . Beyond Bearing Our Sins on the Cross; i.e., Partaking / Entering Into Sin)? [2-27-14]

Opposition to Extreme Anti-Francis Bias: Elliot Bougis [2-28-14]

Pope St. John XXIII & Pope Benedict XVI on “Prophets of Doom” [6-9-14]

Reply to Dr. Phil Blosser’s Critique of My Book, Pope Francis Explained [8-23-14]

Pope Francis: Orthodox & Pro-Tradition [Dan Marcum, Catholic Answers Forum, 1-9-15] [see also a compact, abridged Facebook version]

Critique of Chris Ferrara’s Radical Reactionary Hit-Piece in Opposition to Pope Francis’ Christian Environmentalism [6-20-15] 

Are Modern Papal Encyclicals Too Long? [7-9-15]

Michael Voris on Benedict’s “Immoral” Resignation, Questionable Illness [12-15-15]

The Ridiculous “Anti-Francis” Mentality: My Theory in Brief [12-17-15]

Pope Francis Espoused a Sinning Jesus? Think Again [1-8-16]

On the Endless Second-Guessing of Pope Francis [2-25-16]

Pope Francis Foot-Washing Controversy Redux [3-26-16]

Dialogue: “Bad” Bishops & “Confusing” Francis (vs. Dr. Peter Kwasniewski) [4-28-16]

Dialogue: Pope Francis Doesn’t Evangelize? (and on the Nature of Dialogue vs. [?] the Gospel; with a Traditionalist) [4-29-16]Pope Francis: Obsessed with “Change”? [5-14-16]  

Robert Sungenis’ Theological & Scientific Errors + His Groundless Attacks on Pope St. John Paul II and Pope Benedict [compiled 5-31-16]

“Confusing” Pope Francis & Prudent Public Discussion [6-22-16]

Ratzinger: Avoid Criticizing Church in “Mass Media”  [6-26-16]

The Real & the Imaginary Pope Francis [6-28-16]

Radical Reactionary Affinities in “Filial Correction” Signatories [9-28-17]

Did Cardinal Burke Criticize Pope Benedict’s Resignation? [1-13-18]

Reactionary Influence: Correctio & June 2016 Criticism of the Pope [1-24-18]

Popes Leading the Church Into False Doctrine (E.g., Paul VI) (+ Facebook discussion) [3-8-18]

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John Paul II Kissing the Koran: Dialogue with Traditionalists [2012; new Introduction added on 6-4-19] [6-4-19]
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Pastor Aeternus (1870): Can a Pope Ever Make Heresy Binding? (Dr. Robert Fastiggi and Ron Conte; edited by Dave Armstrong, in Response to Timothy Flanders) [12-1-20]
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XVII. AMORIS LAETITIA
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XVIII. ECUMENISM AND SALVATION “OUTSIDE” THE CATHOLIC CHURCH
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Defense of Vatican II and Ecumenism (Dave Armstrong and Paul Hoffer vs. Tony Jokin) [Facebook discussion thread, 12-18-14]
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XIX. TAYLOR MARSHALL AND HIS BOOK, INFILTRATION: THE PLOT TO DESTROY THE CHURCH FROM WITHIN
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XX. MICHAEL VORIS (CHURCH MILITANT)

“Amazing Grace”: “Anti-Catholic” Hymn? (as Michael Voris thinks?) [11-1-10]

Michael Voris’ Denigration of the Ordinary Form of the Mass vs. Pope Benedict XVI’s 2007 Decrees [11-16-12]

Michael Voris’ Ultra-Pessimistic Views Regarding the Church [7-3-13]

Critique of Three Michael Voris Statements Regarding the State of the Church [7-3-13]

Michael Voris’ Anti-Protestant Rhetoric (+ vigorous Facebook discussion) [8-8-13]

Michael Voris and Historic Communion in the Hand (Standing) (+ vigorous Facebook discussion) [8-8-13]

Dave Armstrong’s Opinion on Michael Voris’ Outlook [8-12-13]

Michael Voris’ Critique of Catholic Answers Salaries (and Contention that Two Radio Shows on Radical Catholic Reactionaries Have Harmed CA)  [8-31-13]

Michael Voris vs. “Financially Compromised” Apologists (Thus, “Establishment” Apologists Deliberately Avoid Criticizing Bishop???) [+ Facebook discussion] [9-2-13]

Michael Voris’ Fawning Interview with Extremist and Anti-Semite E. Michael Jones, and Responses [Facebook discussion: 9-3-13]

Discussion on Rising Priestly Vocations in the United States and Worldwide [Facebook, 12-3-13]

Has Michael Voris Espoused Geocentrism? (His Interview with Robert Sungenis and Rick DeLano) [Facebook discussion, 1-9-14]

Michael Voris Strongly Implies that Many (Most?) Bishops Will Go to Hell / How Much Should We Dwell on Criticisms of Bishops? [Facebook, 1-13-14]

Jeremiad Against Michael Voris’ Latest Doom-and-Gloom Video, The New Church (18 June 2014) [Facebook, 6-19-14]

Michael Voris on Benedict’s “Immoral” Resignation, Questionable Illness [12-15-15]

I Coined “Reactionary” [Catholic], Not Michael Voris [2-1-18]

Response to Michael Voris’ Church Militant and Article Author Jim Russell Concerning Criticism of the Patheos Catholic Channel (Where I Also Blog) [Facebook, 3-14-19; posted comment at CM]

Dave Gordon, Former Employee at Church Militant, on the Reasons for Michael Voris’ Dismissal (Active Homosexual Sex), and the Corruption of the Board [Facebook, 12-2-23]

Christine Niles (Michael Voris’ Sidekick for Nine Years) Spills the Beans About What Has Been Going On at Church Militant [Facebook, 12-5-23]

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XXI. ERRORS OF ROBERT SUNGENIS 
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XXII. SEDEVACANTISM
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Some Fun Insults of Yours Truly from a Sedevacantist Wacko Site [Facebook, 9-3-13]

Karl Keating on Gerry Matatics (One-Time Good Friend of Scott Hahn’s and Now a Sedevacantist) [Facebook,  9-4-13]

Reply to a Sedevacantist and Those Toying with this Dangerous Error [Facebook, 11-6-14]

Gerry Matatics: Closer to Donatism or Protestantism? (vs. Pete Vere, JCL) [12-30-14]

Sedevacantists Offer an Absurd and Stupid Insult-Fest of Yours Truly [Facebook, 2-27-19]

Brief Exchange with a Sedevacantist Regarding Pope Francis [Facebook, 6-25-19]

No, Pope Francis Did Not Deny Transubstantiation (Phenomenological Language in Holy Scripture and in the Addresses of Pope Francis) [6-25-19]

Does Pope Francis Deny the Catholic Doctrine of Merit? No [7-1-19]

Pope Francis & Transubstantiation (vs. Sedevacantists) [7-2-19]

The Sedevacantists Strike Back! The Wickedness of Buddy Holly! [Facebook, 7-5-19]

Pope Francis & the Diversity of Religions (The Sedevacantist Outfit Novus Ordo Watch Lies Yet Again About Pope Francis) [11-29-20]

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XXIII. THE EXCOMMUNICATED ARCHBISHOP EMERITUS CARLO MARIA VIGANO 

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Bishops Viganò & Schneider Reject Authority of Vatican II [11-22-19]

Viganò, Schneider, Pachamama, & VCII (vs. Janet E. Smith) [11-25-19]

Abp. Viganò Descends into Fanatical Reactionary Nuthood (. . . Declares Pope Francis a Heretical Narcissist Who “Desacralized” & “Impugned” & “Attack[ed]” Mary) [12-20-19]

Dr. Fastiggi: Open Letter Re Abp. Viganò, Pope Francis, & Mary [2-22-20]

Abp. Viganò, the Pope, & the “Vicar of Christ” Nothingburger (with Catholic Theologian Dr. Robert Fastiggi and Apologist Karl Keating) [4-6-20]

Abp. Viganò Whopper #289: Pope Forbids All Evangelism (?) [4-8-20]

Dr. Dawn Eden Goldstein Speaks Out Against Abp. Viganò’s Continuing Descent Into Madness and Paranoia [Facebook, 4-29-20]

Is Archbishop Viganò in Schism? [Dr. Robert Fastiggi, Where Peter Is, 6-13-20]

Thoughts on Abp. Viganò & the Continuing “Wacko-ization” & Fanaticism of the Anti-Francis Mentality [Facebook, 6-14-20]

Abp. Viganò: Fanaticism, Extremism, and Conspiratorialism (Summary from August 2019 Until July 2020: Alarming, Increasingly Quasi-Schismatic Spirit) [7-13-20]

What’s So Bad About Abp. Viganò? (Traditionalists Ask) [7-14-20]

Viganò’s Outrageous Lie Re Pope Benedict XVI & Tradition (Unwillingness to Make Even Rudimentary Efforts to Consult Context or to Understand a Pope’s Overall Thinking) [8-21-20]

Abp. Viganò Lies Again & Sez Pope Francis is a Heretic Subversive [Facebook, 9-26-20]

Phil Lawler Says that the McCarrick Report “undermines Archbishop Vigano’s most damaging charge” [Facebook, 11-10-20]

Archbishop Viganò Continues His Descent Into Madness, Denial of Catholic Indefectibility, and Conspiratorialism [Facebook, 12-21-20]

Extremist Reactionary Abp. Vigano Thinks it’s “Necessary” to “Disobey” Pope Francis and to Pray for His Death [Facebook, 2-5-21]

Archbishop Viganò is Now a Full-Blown Sedevacantist Heretic and Should be Excommunicated [Facebook, 4-24-21]

Pope Francis Has Answered the Five Dubia in His Teachings (+ Legitimate Biblical & Spiritual Reasons for His Not Directly Answering Particularly Accusatory, Ill-Willed, & Wrongminded Critics) [8-3-23]

Abp. Vigano to Stand Trial for Schism [Facebook, 6-20-24]

Vigano Excommunicated. What Do His Rabid Followers Do Now? [Facebook, 7-5-24]

Dr. Janet E. Smith and Bp. Strickland Wishy-Washy and Compromised Regarding Viganò [Facebook, 7-12-24]

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A Response to Archbishop Viganò’s Letter about Vatican II (Fr. Thomas G. Weinandy, OFM., Cap., The Catholic World Report, 8-13-20)

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XXIV. BISHOP ATHANASIUS SCHNEIDER

Bishops Viganò & Schneider Reject Authority of Vatican II [11-22-19]

Viganò, Schneider, Pachamama, & VCII (vs. Janet E. Smith) [11-25-19]

Bishop Schneider: No Jesus Better than Hand-Communion [3-14-20]

Bp. Schneider Evokes Luther’s Disdain for Councils [7-17-20]

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XXV. BISHOP EMERITUS JOSEPH STRICKLAND

XXVI. “PACHAMAMA” ALLEGED IDOLATRY AT THE AMAZON SYNOD / “MOTHER EARTH” / CORONAVIRUS & ALLEGED JUDGMENT

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Statues [of Mary?] Thrown Into the Tiber River in Rome Controversy (discussion thread + 2nd thread) [Facebook, 10-24-19]

“Pachamama” [?] Statues: Marian Veneration or Blasphemous Idolatry? [11-5-19]

“Pachamama” Fiasco: Hysterical Reactionaryism, as Usual [11-8-19]

“Pachamama” Confusion: Fault of Vatican or Catholic Media? [11-12-19]

Anti-“Pachamama” Doc: “Usual Suspect” Reactionaries Sign [11-14-19]

Vatican II –> Alleged “Pachamama” Idolatry, Sez Fanatics [11-15-19]

Alexander Tschugguel, the Guy (St. Boniface II) who Threw the Statues into the Tiber, is (Quite Likely) Anti-Vatican II [Facebook, 11-23-19]

Pope St. John Paul II Respectfully Referred to Pachamama (+ Orthodox Catholic References to “Mother Earth” and Similar Biblical Motifs) [12-13-19]

Wacko Reactionary Fanatic Claims That I Endorse Homosexual Acts and “Pachamama” Idolatry [Case Study of Fantastically Out-of-Context Citations] / He Sanctions Hatred [Facebook, 12-17-19]

Is “Mother Earth” a Catholic Concept (Church Fathers)? (guest post by Rosemarie Scott) [12-17-19]

“Pachamama” Redux (vs. Peter Kwasniewski & Janet Smith) [12-17-19]

Dialogue: “Pachamama” (?) Statues & Marian Iconography [12-24-19]

Dr. Fastiggi Defends Pope Francis Re “Pachamama Idolatry” [3-3-20]

Taylor Marshall: Pachamama “Idolatry” Judged by Coronavirus (Yet “Antichrist” Pope Francis Walks the Streets of Pandemic-Ravaged Rome Free of the Virus . . .) [3-17-20]

Alexander Tschugguel, Taylor Marshall, & God’s Wrath [3-19-20]

Priest Blasphemes God (Coronavirus = Judgment?) [4-10-20]

Dialogue: Is Coronavirus the Way that God Judges? [4-13-20]

*

Last updated on 30 January 2025

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2024-08-17T18:25:12-04:00

Includes Biblical Arguments for the Catholic Priesthood

Photo credit: cover of my 2003 book, Protestantism: Critical Reflections of an Ecumenical Catholic.

This discussion and dispute began with a meme that I put up. It stated (numbers added):

Protestantism:

[1] Where everyone is a priest except priests,

[2] Where everyone can bind and loose except bishops,

[3] Where you can command angels but not ask their help,

[4] Where you can talk to the devil but not to saints,

[5] Where everyone gets a crown except the Virgin Mary,

[6] Where everyone can interpret Scripture except the Church,

[7] Where every Church is a Church except the Church.

That caused a firestorm of controversy on one of my Facebook threads. The general tenor of the many Protestant critics who showed up was that I was either grossly ignorant of Protestantism, or deliberately dishonest. I contended that much of the furor, in my opinion, was based on a mistaken view of the sort of “literature” this was: proverbial, which allows of many exceptions. I replied to the most vociferous critic, Steve Gregg, a zealous preacher who emerged from the Jesus Movement of the early 70s, in my article, “Various Protestant Errors (Vs. Steve Gregg)” and made the following observation:

Now, posting a meme doesn’t necessarily mean that one agrees with every particular of it. And this is clearly a proverbial-type of meme, that would allow many exceptions (just as passages in the Book of Proverbs do). Moreover, with Protestantism one has to generalize, since there are so many divisions, but these observations are either broadly true or true of some and sometimes many Protestants, or else I wouldn’t have posted it. There can always be partial exceptions in an individual as well. . . .

It’s important to realize that the meme doesn’t necessarily have to mean that all Protestants believe all these things. . . . It’s implying (at least in my opinion and interpretation) that these beliefs can be or are found among Protestants.

To use an analogy, I could put up a meme about “The Democratic Party” and list seven things that some or many Democrats believe (free abortion and widespread illegal immigration and opposition to fossil fuels would be three examples). It wouldn’t follow that every Democrat believes all seven things; as Democrats (the men and women on the street; not just the politicians) are quite diverse as a group, just as Protestants are. But the generalizations would hold. Democrats are absolutely overwhelmingly in favor of legal abortion, etc. The fact that some aren’t doesn’t negate the legitimacy of the generalization. And the same applies to this meme. . . .

All of the points in the meme have been believed by Protestants; often, by many, and sometimes by very many.

Gregg soon imploded and launched an avalanche of personal attacks, after misinterpreting remarks I made about the behavior of the Protestants other than him in the thread (he took them all personally), as can be seen at the end of that article. With his departure, no other Protestant (of the many critics who chimed in) was willing to reply to my response-paper, save for one person whose demeanor had been cordial all along (h e wishes to remain anonymous). This is my reply to his comments in the original thread. His words will be in blue. Cited words from my reply-paper will be in green. I use RSV for Bible citations.

1. Recognizing special ministry roles (ones of authoritative leadership and otherwise) is not synonymous with “gap-bridging between God and man” priesthood. The sacramental “gatekeeping access to God” role Protestantism saw in Catholic “priesthood” is not parallel to those roles we see affirmed in the NT.

I agree; hence I wrote, “the universal priesthood of believers . . .  is scriptural, and we also believe it. But we differ in thinking that there is an additional specific class of clergy called priests, . . . In other words, there are two senses of ‘priest’ in the Bible.” Thus, I was not arguing for equation, but rather, differentiation of two groups of people.

All the examples provided fail to establish NT priesthood. They establish ministerial roles (in general and various kinds), certainly, but not a “gatekeeping access to God” role typically referenced specifically as “priests.” It isn’t there. Bishops, overseers, shepherds, many terms are used for authoritative caretaking roles, but not priesthood. Jesus is the high priest, and we merely are kept in perpetual remembrance of his high priesthood.

I wrote: “The priesthood as we know it today is not a strong motif in the New Testament. But this can be explained in terms of development of doctrine: in the early days of Christianity some things were understood only in a very basic or skeletal sense.”

That said, I did offer arguments for the priesthood, particularly as presiding over the Mass (“Jesus entrusts to His disciples a remembrance of the central aspect of the liturgy or Mass (consecration of the bread and wine) at the Last Supper [(Lk. 22:19: ‘Do this in remembrance of me’]; Paul may also have presided over a Eucharist in Acts 20:11.” [“Paul had gone up and had broken bread and eaten”], even though that wasn’t the primary purpose of what I argued in my book (which was the differentiation of “priesthood of all believers” from priests in the Catholic sense). I addressed the “binding and loosing” aspect, which ties into confession and absolution (your “gatekeeping access to God” description), in replying to #2 in the meme. If you want “gatekeeping” you see that in this passage:

John 20:23 If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.

That’s “gatekeeping,” because, note that it’s talking about forgiving the sins of others in a general sense; that is, even if they have nothing to do with the person offering the forgiveness, or penance (“retained”). We see the Apostle Paul doing the same thing with regard to a serious sinner in the Corinthian congregation:

1 Corinthians 5:1-5 It is actually reported that there is immorality among you, and of a kind that is not found even among pagans; for a man is living with his father’s wife. [2] And you are arrogant! Ought you not rather to mourn? Let him who has done this be removed from among you. [3] For though absent in body I am present in spirit, and as if present, I have already pronounced judgment [4] in the name of the Lord Jesus on the man who has done such a thing. When you are assembled, and my spirit is present, with the power of our Lord Jesus, [5] you are to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

This is an example of Paul “binding” (Mt 18:18) or “retaining” sins; i.e., imposing a penance for them. That’s the priestly function in the more specific Catholic sense. Then later he relaxes the punishment, which is the “loosing” function or forgiveness, and is actually an explicit example of what we call an indulgence (the relaxing or removal of temporal punishment for sin):

2 Corinthians 2:6-8, 10 For such a one this punishment [penance!] by the majority is enough; [7] so you should rather turn to forgive and comfort him, or he may be overwhelmed by excessive sorrow. [8] So I beg you to reaffirm your love for him. . . . [10] Any one whom you forgive, I also forgive. What I have forgiven, if I have forgiven anything, has been for your sake in the presence of Christ,

Note particularly verse 10: “Any one whom you forgive, I also forgive.” Paul is forgiving those who did him no (personal) wrong, and that’s because he is functioning as a priest and gatekeeper. He can formally pronounce either forgiveness or penance as a representative of God, and he did both. Paul casually assumes that priests are still operative under the new Christian covenant, by referring to the table of the Lord (or altar) and contrasting it with the table of demons, in a eucharistic context:

1 Corinthians 10:14-21 Therefore, my beloved, shun the worship of idols. [15] I speak as to sensible men; judge for yourselves what I say. [16] The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not a participation in the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ? [17] Because there is one bread, we who are many are one body, for we all partake of the one bread. [18] Consider the people of Israel; are not those who eat the sacrifices partners in the altar? [19] What do I imply then? That food offered to idols is anything, or that an idol is anything? [20] No, I imply that what pagans sacrifice they offer to demons and not to God. I do not want you to be partners with demons. [21] You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons. You cannot partake of the table of the Lord and the table of demons. (cf. 9:13)

Paul is in this same priestly thought-world in another of his statements:

Romans 15:15-17 But on some points I have written to you very boldly by way of reminder, because of the grace given me by God [16] to be a minister of Christ Jesus to the Gentiles in the priestly service of the gospel of God, so that the offering of the Gentiles may be acceptable, sanctified by the Holy Spirit. [17] In Christ Jesus, then, I have reason to be proud of my work for God.

He’s “offering” a “priestly service” to the Gentiles. The Greek word is hierourgeo. Strong’s Concordance defines it as “to be a temple-worker, i.e., officiate as a priest (fig.): — minister.” This classic (non-Catholic) reference work states: “to minister in the manner of a priest, minister in priestly service.” It also notes (from Joseph Thayer’s Greek-English Lexicon) historical etymological definitions of “to be busied with sacred things; to be perform sacred rites” (from Philo), and “used esp. of persons sacrificing” (from Josephus).

Baptist Greek scholar A. T. Robertson, in his famous work, Word Pictures of the New Testament (Nashville, Tennessee: Broadman Press, 1930; six volumes; under Romans 15:16; vol. 4, 520), provides the basic definition: “to work in sacred things, to minister as a priest.” Likewise, Marvin Vincent’s Word Studies in the New Testament (four volumes; New York: Charles Scribner’s Sons, 1887; reprinted: Grand Rapids, Michigan: Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Co., 1946; vol. III, 174) states, for the same passage:

Ministering (ierourgounta). Only here in the New Testament. Lit., ministering as a priest.

Offering up (prosfora). Lit., the bringing to, i.e., to the altar. Compare doeth service, John xvi. 2.

Kittel’s Theological Dictionary of the New Testament defines it as:

‘to perform sacred or sacrificial ministry.’ In Josephus and Philo it always means “to offer sacrifice” and often has no object. (hierourgia means “sacrifice” and hierourgema the “act of sacrifice.”)

None of these reference works are Catholic; thus, no charge of bias based on Catholic affiliation can be made against them. The bottom line is that Paul has called himself a priest – using two different terms.

We get the word liturgy from litourgos (Strong’s word #3011; cf. #3008, 3009, and 3010). Strong’s (word #3008: litourgeo) applies it to, among other things, “priests and Levites who were busied with the sacred rites in the tabernacle or the temple.”

Paul also casually assumes the continued existence of altars among Christians (1 Cor 10:14-21), and altars are mentioned in the New Testament in other places (apart from the many mentions of altars in heaven), as well:

Hebrews 13:9-12 Do not be led away by diverse and strange teachings; for it is well that the heart be strengthened by grace, not by foods, which have not benefited their adherents. [10] We have an altar from which those who serve the tent have no right to eat. [11] For the bodies of those animals whose blood is brought into the sanctuary by the high priest as a sacrifice for sin are burned outside the camp. [12] So Jesus also suffered outside the gate in order to sanctify the people through his own blood.

Therefore, if it is true that – as John Calvin argues in his Institutes: IV, 18:3 –: “the cross of Christ is overthrown the moment an altar is erected”, then the New Testament is against the cross. It’s much more likely that Calvin has misunderstood the passages above.

Priests dispense sacraments (1 Cor 4:1; Jas 5:14), including baptism (Mt 28:19; Acts 2:38, 41). A universal priesthood of “offering” (sacrifice) extending to “every place” in New Testament times is prophesied in Isaiah 66:18, 21 and Malachi 1:11.

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2. If binding & loosing refers to excommunication and reconciliation, we see Paul prompting the Corinthian church to do so as a community rather than tasking a priest/pastor/elder to do so. This binding & loosing would be church-communal rather than limited to a few in authority.

Here you appear to be referring to the passages I brought up, above. What you overlook is the fact that Paul himself was functioning as the priest in that instance, and merely encouraging the assembly to follow-up on his instructions. Paul started the ball rolling, so to speak. Accordingly, he writes with “high” priestly, commanding authority: “Let him who has done this be removed from among you. . . . I have already pronounced judgment in the name of the Lord Jesus . . . you are to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved . . .” (1 Cor 5:2-3, 5).

Paul directed the whole thing: not the Corinthians themselves. He was the priest. He was doing “gatekeeping” — as you described it. Likewise, he led and guided the relaxation of the penance or indulgence, too (which directly contradicts your argument). He commands them and tells them what to do: “this punishment by the majority is enough; so you should rather turn to forgive and comfort him . . . I beg you to reaffirm your love for him. . . . Any one whom you forgive, I also forgive” (2 Cor 2:6-8, 10).

3. Word of Faith / “Prosperity Gospel” figureheads, while they exist, are dismissed by almost all Protestants with contempt as heretical false teachers.
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I agree. As I noted, I rebuked these errors as a young apologist in 1982, and as a charismatic Protestant. But it hasn’t been established that this error occurs only among the “word of faith” extremists. And I can attest to the fact that this mentality is rampant in pentecostal circles. I attended Assemblies of God from 1982-1986 and I personally encountered or witnessed dozens of people talking this nonsense, even though AG doctrine was against it. In this meme, practices “on the ground” are being referred to, not just official doctrines.
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So the whole “commanding angels” thing simply is not something to say “occurs in our ranks.”
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Again, as I noted, there are over 644 million pentecostals or charismatics worldwide. It certainly does occur in your ranks. In five seconds I found this on an Assemblies of God site:
Mark 1:34 says, “He [Jesus] did not allow the demons to speak, because they knew Him” (NKJV). In Mark 5:8, He commands, “Come out of the man, unclean spirit!” This is why believers can take authority in Jesus’ name over demonic activity.
Assemblies of God is usually regarded as the largest pentecostal denomination. It has 68.5 million members, just 6.5 million less than Presbyterians and 11.5 million less than Lutherans and Methodists. Granted, this citation is about demons, but they are angels, too, after all (fallen angels). Other charismatic articles deny that this is the case; for example, “Can Christians Command Angels?” (Samantha Carpenter, CharismaNews, 5-19-21).
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As I’ve reiterated over and over, I don’t believe that the meme was claiming that all Protestants believe any of these points: only that some or many do. If in fact the meme writer didn’t intend that understanding (maybe he or she didn’t), it’s still certainly my own view of the points in it. This particular item probably applies to the smallest number (as I already conceded), but it’s still not nonexistent.
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You may as well be addressing JW or LDS as “a problem in Protestant ranks” as if it is something we can existentially eradicate any more than Catholicism can.
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Those groups are non-trinitarian heresies and not Protestant at all (I wrote against JWs in the early 80s as an evangelical Protestant: it was one of my earliest apologetics projects). The “word of faith” theology and group of folks — bad and dangerous as the theology is — is not in that category at all. They are almost all trinitarian Protestant Christians; more comparable to a group like Seventh-Day Adventists, which contains significant departures from historic Protestantism (denial of hell and assertion of soul sleep), but is not out of the fold of Christianity. That was Walter Martin’s view (the cult expert, in his book, The Kingdom of the Cults) and is my own as well.
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Alternatively, we could point at rogue Catholic bishops maintaining their positions on controversial matters as evidence Catholicism “has that in its ranks.” If that doesn’t count because it “isn’t condoned” or “they’ve been excommunicated anyway,” the same thing holds for how widely Protestants decry Word of Faith / Prosperity Gospel. Take a look at how everyone talks about Joel Osteen. We ostracize that entire way of thinking.
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Yep. I have been very consistent and vocal in my view that the Catholic Church has mollycoddled and pampered and winked at theological liberals and wolves in sheep’s clothing in our ranks for sixty years. We’ve had hell to pay as a result, with the sex scandals (active homosexuals entering the priesthood with those views and practices) and widespread theological illiteracy. We have plenty of serious problems “on the ground” and in practice, just as you do.
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That said, we have a means to correct people like this, by our unified theology (even if often we don’t do it), whereas Protestants can only correct folks in one particular denomination. And then the ones being censured can simply leave and form another denomination or go to another one more amenable to their views (many liberal Protestant denominations to choose from!).
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The example of Lot isn’t even relevant, as Lot was APPROACHED BY an angel commanding him with a message from God, and Lot RESPONDED by appealing that delivered directive. Since God had explicitly used an intermediary, Lot was positioned to respond to that intermediary. This is unrelated to Christians spontaneously “reaching out” to aimlessly command random unknown angels.
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I commend you for addressing the second part of #3: that Protestants don’t pray to angels. Virtually all of the critics consistently missed the aspect of “compare and contrast” in the seven points. That was the second most prevalent error after not understanding the nature of generalizations.
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The question at hand here is whether Protestants believe that we can “ask”: angels for “help”; i.e., basically pray to them. And Protestants deny that we can do so. Therefore, I produced a clear biblical example of someone dong so in the Bible, and this being casually assumed (by Moses, who wrote it) to be altogether proper. For convenience’ sake, here is the passage again:
Genesis 19:15, 18-21 When morning dawned, the angels urged Lot, saying, “Arise, take your wife and your two daughters who are here, lest you be consumed in the punishment of the city.”. . . And Lot said to them, “Oh, no, my lords; behold, your servant has found favor in your sight, and you have shown me great kindness in saving my life; but I cannot flee to the hills, lest the disaster overtake me, and I die. Behold, yonder city is near enough to flee to, and it is a little one. Let me escape there — is it not a little one? — and my life will be saved!” He said to him, “Behold, I grant you this favor also, that I will not overthrow the city of which you have spoken.
Remember, the question is whether we can ask angels for help: to petition them. Standard Protestant theological says that we cannot do so: that we can’t invoke or ask for intercessory assistance either angels or dead human beings. But what you guys forbid is clearly taught here. Lot asks the angel if he can flee to a nearby city. The angel not only allows that, but also says that he won’t destroy the city (!) by “grant[ing]” the “favor” of not “overthrow[ing]” the city. That’s petition or prayer to an angel, which is utterly impermissible in Protestantism.
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You use a rather desperate and irrelevant reply to try to escape this dilemma by noting that the angel approached him first; therefore, it is supposedly essentially different from prayer to an angel. But it’s not. Petitionary prayer is what it is, whether an angel or dead person approaches us or not, and Protestantism forbids it. The aspect of “approaching first” is a non-essential element of it; therefore it doesn’t overthrow the difficulty.
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4. The rich man talking to Abraham is two physically-dead (but spiritually alive?) people talking, which is not comparable to one living and one dead person talking.
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I’ve dealt with this objection countless times. The fact that the rich man was also dead is irrelevant with regard to the absolute Protestant prohibition of invoking anyone other than God.  If that is accepted as a prior premise (as it is), then it matters not that a person who is dead in Hades is making the prayer petition to a man (Abraham in this case). He or she can’t do it, because it’s forbidden. The theology doesn’t suddenly change just because a person dies. And if it is forbidden, as Protestants claim, Abraham would have had to rebuke the rich man for making the petitions. But of course he didn’t, because it is biblically permissible.
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And the denials aren’t “ain’t doing it as that is against God’s will.” Both requests are simply useless, one because it is impossible and the other because even if granted it would make no difference. If anything, it shows the total fruitlessness of engaging in it. There’s nothing to be accomplished from it. There’s an uncrossable gap involved AND we see an implication that intervention by a faithful comforted (and dead) believer would make zero difference.
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All of that is irrelevant to the question at hand, too (what’s known as a non sequitur in logic). All that is relevant is whether Scripture sanctions prayer to a dead man. It does here, right from the lips of Jesus, and Abraham didn’t rebuke the prayer and say, “why are you asking me?! Don’t you know that you can only ask God to answer prayer requests?!” — which he would have to do if this tenet of Protestantism were true.
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The same thing happens again when King Saul petitions the dead prophet Samuel. Samuel tells him that he is going to die in battle the next day, and offers no solace. What he didn’t do was rebuke Saul for offering an impermissible prayer. It all fits with Catholic theology and not at all with the Protestant outlook.
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5. Weak and dodgy. Referring to Protestants saying Mary isn’t “the queen of heaven” — but ignoring the idea of all saints attaining crowns of victory & glory — is begging there to be a point. Even saying Rev 12 = Mary is just bad exegesis someone only engages in if they’re believing what someone else has told them is there.
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This is the point (you verify it in this reply): which is that Protestants love talking about all the crowns believers get in heaven, while denying and warring against virtually any specific honor in Mary’s case as “Maryolatry.” Mary’s crown is referred to in Revelation 12 and Protestants typically deny that the passage is about Mary. But this is exegetically weak, anti-Marian bias.
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There are many good reasons for believing that Revelation 12 has an application to Mary (it also has a dual application to the Church). Who else, after all, “brought forth a male child, one who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron, but her child was caught up to God and to his throne” (Rev 12:5)? The Church didn’t bring forth Jesus, since it was Jesus Who established the Church. I’ve made the exegetical case several times (here are five of those):
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6. No, sola scriptura does not make the individual’s interpretive role absolute. Rather, it makes interdependent communal interpretation that much more crucial, as scripture still means what it means even if we misinterpret it. We remain accountable to scripture itself, not to our interpretation of it. 
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I’ll repeat what I stated last time, because you have not addressed it at all:
The individual (like Luther, who invented this!) can judge the institutional (Catholic / Orthodox) Church. That’s exactly what Luther did in 1521 at the Diet of Worms. He knew better than the entire unbroken 1500-year tradition of the Catholic Church. 
Any Protestant — by the express principle of sola Scriptura — can dissent against his or her denomination, just as Luther did against the Catholic Church, simply by declaring what is dissented against as “unscriptural. And no Protestant can show that that is not what sola Scriptura logically boils down to. Therefore, in the final analysis, the individual indeed reigns supreme in Protestantism.
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If this is denied, then Martin Luther’s very actions to start the whole thing would be nullified; thus discounting the entire Protestant “Reformation” and its initial rationale. You can talk a good game of limited denominational authority, but that only goes so far, when there are hundreds of other denominations to choose from if someone is censured.
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With Catholicism, by contrast, nobody is accountable to scripture itself, but ONLY to what the Magisterium declares it to mean.
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This is patently false, and is one of the most stubborn, intransigent Protestant myths about the Catholic Church. In fact, there are only seven (some think nine) passages out of the entire Bible where the Catholic Church requires only one interpretation. Beyond that, Catholics are as free as any other exegete to interpret Scripture on their own. See my article:
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The Catholic Church, of course, wants that enterprise to be guided in an ultimate sense by the Church (orthodoxy), but that’s no different from every Protestant group offering Scriptures that mean a certain thing, and an overall theology (in creeds and confessions and membership statements), meant to guide its adherents. In other words, this is a wash and a non-issue. But it sounds really good as a potshot against the Big Bad Catholic Church, doesn’t it? If only it were true . . .
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7. Hair-splitting. The passages referenced to not indicate the points being made. If the church means all who are in Christ, but some can fall away, then they are no longer part of the church as they are no longer in Christ.
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Yes, when they fall away, they aren’t, but the problem is that no one can know for sure whether they will persevere till the end (or whether they themselves will). We don’t know the future. We’re not God. We know there is an elect (the eschatologically saved, who make it to heaven). But we can’t know with certainty which individuals are included in that category. And because of that, “bad” individuals, or [terrible] “sinners” are in the Church, and there is abundant biblical indication of that. I only gave a small amount of the proof to be had. I have much more that can be seen on my web page, Inquisition, Crusades, & “Catholic Scandals” (in the section, “Sinners in the Church”). I’ve written about the general topic at least eleven times.
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Addressing churches in a way that condemns some of their “bewitched” beliefs is not a way of saying “you people who count / don’t count as part of the church.”
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Exactly! That was my point. They are part of the Church, too.
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And if Paul meant it that way in saying “to the churches,” he was failing to address them properly because if they were actually Church they’d be infallible.
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I don’t follow this reasoning, and so won’t comment further on it.
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“Churches” is interconnected local gatherings of believers,
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No one denies that.
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whereas “the church” [entire] is all global believers. Nothing you wrote overturns that.
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Protestants deny an institutional, hierarchical, historically verified Church, which is impossible to do. You simply ignored the one compact argument I made for the institutional Church:
[T]he Jerusalem Council . . . was led by Peter and the bishop of Jerusalem, James, attended by Paul, and consisted of “apostles and elders.” It made a decree that was agreed with by the Holy Spirit (i.e., an infallible or even inspired one) — Acts 15:28 — , which was proclaimed by Paul far and wide as binding on Christians (Acts 16:4).
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That’s undeniably an institutional Church, and one that produced infallible binding decrees in council: all of which is contrary to the beliefs of most Protestants. Sola Scriptura denies that councils can be infallible, but the Jerusalem Council was. You deny that the Church was an organization. Yet here it was. BIG discussion — and if you hang around, we can get into that in far more depth — , but that is my short, nutshell answer for now.

Steve Gregg — to whom I was replying there — chose not to stick around, choosing the path of emptyheaded and misdirected insults, so we couldn’t get into “far more depth” — beyond a “nutshell answer.” Maybe you will. I think this is a good dialogue and that we could have many more. What denomination do you attend, by the way? Are you a pastor or theological professor?

As to the basic question here, see my articles and dialogues:

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Is the One True Church a Visible or Invisible Entity? [National Catholic Register, 9-12-18]
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The Authority of the Catholic Church (+ Pt. 2): chapter two of my 2009 book, Bible Truths for Catholic Truths: A Source Book for Apologists and Inquirers [10-16-23]
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Thanks for the cordial discussion and God bless you.
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Practical Matters:  I run the most comprehensive “one-stop” Catholic apologetics site: rated #1 for Christian sites by leading AI tool, ChatGPT — endorsed by popular Protestant blogger Adrian Warnock. Perhaps some of my 4,800+ free online articles or fifty-five books have helped you (by God’s grace) to decide to become Catholic or to return to the Church, or better understand some doctrines and why we believe them.
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Or you may believe my work is worthy to support for the purpose of apologetics and evangelism in general. If so, please seriously consider a much-needed financial contribution. I’m always in need of more funds: especially monthly support. “The laborer is worthy of his wages” (1 Tim 5:18, NKJV). 1 December 2021 was my 20th anniversary as a full-time Catholic apologist, and February 2022 marked the 25th anniversary of my blog.
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PayPal donations are the easiest: just send to my email address: [email protected]. Here’s also a second page to get to PayPal. You’ll see the term “Catholic Used Book Service”, which is my old side-business. To learn about the different methods of contributing (including Zelle), see my page: About Catholic Apologist Dave Armstrong / Donation InformationThanks a million from the bottom of my heart!

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Photo credit: cover of my 2003 book, Protestantism: Critical Reflections of an Ecumenical Catholic (see book and purchase information).

Summary: I reply to and interact with one Protestant who didn’t like a meme I put up which generalized about certain errors in Protestantism. I defend my position in depth.


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