March 14, 2019

. . . Specifically, the Biblical (and Patristic) Teaching on Abortion

“DagoodS” is a very thoughtful atheist with whom I have enjoyed many challenging dialogues (see them listed under his name on my Atheism web page). I’ve also met him in person several times. This critique of mine has to do with his deconversion from Christianity. It seems self-evident that if an atheist did not have an adequate understanding of Christianity or the Bible when he or she was a Christian, it would explain a lot as to why they left the faith (basically, I respectfully submit, they rejected a straw man rather than the real thing). This is why I critique deconversion stories: a thing that atheists absolutely detest (though they constantly criticize all aspects of our belief and personal faith). Goose and gander, I say! His words will be in blue.

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I thought it would be interesting to try and get some of DagoodS’ thoughts about the Bible, in order to establish more about his hostile presuppositions. And so I ran across on his blog, a piece entitled, “This Leopard Can’t change its Spots” (6-27-08).

How did he view the Bible as a Christian? Well, there were already many indications and danger signs that he was misinterpreting it even then: so many that I could have easily predicted that he had a good chance of forsaking his faith and going atheist if I had met him ten years ago. He talks about what Christians do, as he observes them now: 

They don’t want to discuss the creation, content or context of the Bible. They want to discuss, ‘I feel.’ They want to discuss their perception of God.

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Then he acknowledges that he (the “leopard”) used to do exactly the same:

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I realize, in retrospect, this is exactly what I did as a Christian. Christians wanted Bible study to be, ‘Let’s read a verse and tell each other what we feel about it.’

So now we have one of the hundreds of cases in which a former Christian, who wasn’t adequately informed of his faith when he still had it, projecting his past shortcomings onto most Christians that he meets. He rejected a straw man in the first place and now he fights straw men incessantly in order to justify his decision to abandon the straw man. 

This is what we learn in examining deconversion stories. It’s always the same [I’ve critiqued some twenty of them by now]. I’ve yet to find one that is any different (perhaps I will one day if I keep looking hard enough).

DagoodS proceeds to give examples of what he didn’t believe the Bible taught, even as a Christian. He didn’t think it taught equality of the sexes. And sure enough, he didn’t hold (as a Christian) that the condemnation of abortion was taught (directly or indirectly) in the Bible:

I was squeamish on the topic of abortion. Oh, there are plenty of arguments against abortion without needing to go to the Bible, but when people say, ‘God is against abortion’ I became very, very silent. All the verses regarding God recognizing children in the womb are glorifying his knowledge. There is no specific verse saying ‘deliberate abortion is wrong.’ Inferences and exegetical manhandling—yes. Specifics; no. Without those specifics, I thought it was better to be quiet than find out some day, in heaven, I was wrong.

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Wow. Isn’t it strange?! I look at the very same Bible and find about 100 passages (take out the deuterocanonical ones if you must) having to do with abortion in many of its aspects: The Bible’s Teaching on Abortion.

But DagoodS couldn’t “see” all those! I guess he didn’t know his Bible very well, and since he is a leopard who can’t change his spots (his own description, not mine), he continues to not know it very well today. So he fights against it, to justify his decision to stop believing that it is inspired and infallible. 

There is no question whatsoever that the Bible condemns abortion: in many different ways. It defines the preborn child as indeed human and a person, and it forbids murder of persons. Case closed. End of story. That is really all that is required: A+B. Elementary logic. Moreover, when it condemns, e.g., child sacrifice, logically, the preborn are included, since they are considered children as well. It has passages like:

2 Kings 15:16 At that time Men’ahem sacked Tappuah and all who were in it and its territory from Tirzah on; because they did not open it to him, therefore he sacked it, and he ripped up all the women in it who were with child.

It’s wrong to do such things; therefore, abortion (as an act that is exactly the same in essence: “ripping up” a woman with child) is also wrong. The goal is to murder the child, which is an especially evil and despicable act.

But is this an exercise in logic that was too difficult for DagoodS as a Christian and now? It’s not difficult to grasp these simple logical deductions.

It appears that the reason why DagoodS thought that the Bible didn’t prohibit abortion is because he was demanding an explicit passage (“There is no specific verse saying ‘deliberate abortion is wrong.’”). But this itself is a peculiarly Protestant and most unbiblical way of approaching biblical exegesis.

The Bible never teaches that explicit Bible passages must be found in order to believe in a doctrine or tenet. It’s a myth. I’ve written about this many times (see. e.g., “Explicit” Bible Proofs and Protestant Double Standards) and have challenged Protestants to show how I am wrong, and they always go silent or retreat to irrelevant platitudes or Bible verses.

Yet he says, “What I don’t see are Christians who actually know their Bible.”

To use another well-known proverb (like the leopard and its spots): talk about the pot calling the kettle black . . .

What method do you propose I could utilize to objectively determine why I deconverted? 

To dialogue with Christians who understand the Bible and Christianity far more than you did before and do now.

Was it for intellectual reasons? Was it because I was angry at God? Was it for moral reasons? Was it because I thought it would be cool? Was it to get the atheist discount card?

I concentrate on the first one. It is quite obvious to me that you greatly lacked skills in biblical hermeneutics and exegesis, simply from looking at the conclusions you came to. You could look at the Bible and not see that it condemned abortion. You didn’t get it that Christianity teaches the equality of men and women.

So the problems were in place long ago, and they were primarily what caused you to deconvert, in my opinion, because you believed in a caricature of Christianity and so rejected the same caricature when you found it inadequate. As Hosea 4:6 states (RSV): “My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge;. . .”

Understand, I am NOT looking for the reasons you think I deconverted.

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Sorry; already gave them . . . as usual, the atheist despises any analysis of his deconversion, because that is what he hangs his hat on. It’s scary to realize how flimsy the rationales are. They don’t wanna go there . . . 

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(Because you have the same rationalization problem as a human as I do. And you have significant lack of data, by not knowing me either as a Christian or now.)

I know this little tidbit of information that you offered: your atrocious exegesis of the Bible and inability to decipher its contents in areas like abortion. You yourself said such things caused you to start questioning biblical inspiration. It’s not even speculation on my part to note what you said about yourself. And so that is an objective way to analyze your defection: you say there is nothing about abortion; I say there are about 100 passages. You can try to explain all those away if you wish. I won’t hold my breath, given the way you are systematically ignoring dozens of questions and arguments in this combox thread.

I am looking for a method to apply where I can step back, and as objectively as possible determine what motivated me to deconvert.

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I just gave you one. I’m sure you’re absolutely delighted that I have done so, right?

I will tell you I came up with a method and employed it. But I don’t want to tell you what it is, yet, to prevent tainting your own suggestion.

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I’m not interested in games and ring-around-the-rosey, but serious analysis and comparison of the plausibility of opposing positions. The abortion-in-the-Bible discussion offers us one of many ways to do so.

Only internet apologists are unsatisfied I was ever a Christian.

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I have never claimed that and I am an Internet apologist if there ever was one. Calvinism requires that (since it denies that a true Christian can ever fall away from Christianity), and I am not a Calvinist. I wouldn’t have said that as a Protestant, either, because I was an Arminian, and they believe that Christians can fall away and commit apostasy. Therefore, I call you a “former Christian.” Pretty hard to do that if I thought you never were one, ain’t it? It’s possible, of course, that you never were one, but I don’t assert that. I accept your report at face value.

I have said that I think your knowledge of important issues within your Christianity was woefully deficient. In other words, you seem to have had only a poor acquaintance with the apologetics that may have kept you a Christian. It’s why I do what I do. So many times people reject Christianity because they falsely believe that it is something that it is not. My job as an apologist is to show that it is 1) a great thing; 2) a true thing; and 3) that the reasons in favor of it are far better than those against it.

This causes the Christian to have confidence and to be spared from various counter-influences. And of course within the Christian paradigm I argue that Catholicism is the fullest and most true expression of Christianity. Generally when dealing with atheists, though, I defend general Christianity and don’t get into Catholic issues unless I am asked something specific about that.

To dialogue with Christians who understand the Bible and Christianity far more than you did before and do now.

Aye…and there’s the rub. I did. I spoke with Pastors and Deacons and Professors and learned men. I spoke with friends I respected, men I revered, and strangers recommended. I spoke in person, through e-mail and on-line. And they were unable to provide satisfactory answers.

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Then why do you still seek them out? You still think someone out there can convince you to return to Christianity? Are you trying to do the Karl Popper falsification thing? You will always find the answers unsatisfactory, no matter how good they are. That is the whole point! You do, I believe, because of the reasons I have outlined, not because the answers were always insufficient in and of themselves, or untrue.

Apparently what you are claiming is I spoke to the wrong ones.

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I have no idea about these people unless I see something concrete. What I have seen myself shows me that you were abysmally ignorant of sensible, proper biblical interpretation, at least in those particular areas. But you refuse to pursue that line of critique, to try to prove me wrong. I’d be happy to go over my hundred or so proofs of the biblical prohibition of abortion (the example I have highlighted), that you claim are actually not there, and therefore that Scripture is wildly eisegeted and mishandled by those with a pro-life agenda that they then wrongly project onto the Bible.

Fair enough. What method do I use to determine who the “correct” Christians who “understand Christianity far better” are, in order for me to dialogue with them?

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The same one that enabled you to figure out who the best defenders of the Resurrection are. You managed to find those. So you can figure out who the best defenders of Scripture are. But you have to truly interact with them (assuming they have the time and/or interest to do it with you). You can’t skirt and evade the issues and refuse to answer direct questions and ignore direct critiques, as you have been mostly doing with me. People don’t have the patience for that. It has to be a real dialogue.

Considering one Christian group tells me “that particular Christian group” is wrong, yet “that particular Christian group” tells me the first Christian Group is wrong, and they ALL agree the Mormon Christian group is wrong. The Calvinists tell me the non-Calvinist group is wrong; the Protestants tell me the Catholic group is wrong. The Seventh-day Adventists, Lutherans, Presbyterians, Charismatics…all bickering and fighting as to who the “correct” group of Christians must be.

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Yes, that is a real problem, and a major reason I am Catholic, but that is not your immediate issue. That comes later. Right now you need to even be convinced of matters that all these groups (apart from rank heretics like the Mormons who reject historic Christianity) hold in common: does God exist; Who Jesus was, etc. First things first.

But in passing, note that Catholics do not claim to be the sole true or correct group. We claim to be the fullness of Christianity, but we don’t deny for a second that other Christians possess large amounts of Christian truth as well. We’re not like the anti-Catholic Protestants who ridiculously deny that we are Christians at all.

All I am looking for is a method. What method do I use to determine whom I should be dialoguing with?

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At a bare minimum, If they know their faith well and can offer up halfway decent defenses of it and substantive critiques of your view. If you think I fill these criteria, dialogue with me. If you don’t, find someone else.

And of some humor to me (demonstrating you don’t know me very well)

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Never said I did, so that is neither here nor there. But I can tell if you don’t know something, when I read statements on your blog that prove that.

the very people I was dialoguing with would agree with your position the Bible teaches men and women are equal. Separate…but equal. The very men I was talking with would whole-heartedly agree the Bible addresses numerous verses toward abortion. Not sure you understand Christianity I came from if you think otherwise.

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Of course they did. So what? This is a problem in your thinking; not necessarily theirs. You won’t even tell me what brand of Christian you were, Why not? Maybe you’re like the hostile guy I met at Jon [Curry]’s meetings. Turns out he was a former Jehovah’s Witness. So he was never a Christian at all.

I was asking you why you think anti-abortion is not taught in the Bible. I think that is a ridiculous position to take. It couldn’t be any more untrue than it is. Keep ignoring the challenge if you must. People reading this will see who had the better argument. They can read my linked paper with the biblical data and compare that to your ignorant bald statement to the contrary and see who knows what they are talking about when it comes to the Bible on that issue.

The problem came when I stopped being convinced by their claims. THAT is the question I am asking; THAT is the method I am looking for. Why did I stop believing their arguments?

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Lots of reasons, I’m sure.

What method can I use to determine why I was no longer convinced by the arguments I had heard (and employed myself) for decades previous?

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I have already dealt with that. Talk about concrete issues and deal with them one-by-one.

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Phil Stilwell, another former Christian, wrote:

When I was 7 years old and pleading with god every evening to make sure he had accepted my faith, I was assured by all the christians around me that I was indeed a child of god. After I was 8, I never doubted my salvation…until I actually began to doubt the coherency of the god-myth. When, as an adult, I went door-to-door witnessing and leading people to the lord on my own apart from any church program prompting me to, I was lauded as a fine example of a christian. Now I find christians claiming I was never at any time a real christian. I guess I’m too far removed from that cute 7 year old I once was. It’s rather ridiculous to watch christians desperately attempting to rewrite the histories of apostates, and their own assurances they gave those apostates when they were young. Google “reasons for my deconversion” to learn more about my apostasy.

I don’t have to do any of this, Phil. It is perfectly possible, biblically, that you were a Christian and later fell away. Lots of passages. So I say “former Christian” and speak of apostasy; that means falling away from something actually possessed in the past. “Deconversion,” likewise, refers to converting to one belief away from another. I take the report at face value. I lose nothing in doing that, anyway (from a purely tactical perspective). If you were not in fact, my argument doesn’t suffer from assuming that you were.

This particular argument is with Calvinists. Let them defend their own beliefs. I just wrote a book where I devoted more than a hundred pages refuting TULIP from the Bible. TULIP is a non-biblical tradition of men. 

So if someone wants to deny that you or DagoodS or any number of atheists were ever Christians, they should at least be careful to be more precise in their terminology.

My critiques of deconversions don’t have to distort or deny what anyone was before at all. I ain’t fightin’ straw men, but [self-reports about] “former men.” Thus, I am now analyzing what DagoodS says about his past Christian self, and I think I am showing that, though he was a Christian, he was an abysmally ignorant one when it came to understanding the Bible (abortion being our present test case).

So I am taking him at his word and critiquing what he himself tells me he thought as a Christian, and I’m showing that the seeds of his apostasy were already quite apparent. Like I said, if I had known him then, I could have easily posited a real possibility of his falling away, because he wasn’t grounded firmly enough. He didn’t know his apologetics; nor did he know how to properly exegete the Bible.

This is what I invariably discover when analyzing deconversion accounts. If it is not the case with you, it’ll be the first time, and I’ll congratulate you for being a pioneer and will buy you a cigar and bottle of wine (being the wine-bibbing Catholic that I am).

Wrong thoughts, bad logic, lack of acqaintance with relevant facts: all of these can eventually cause a lack of faith, or erode a real, true faith, because the mind is always involved in the overall equation. This is why truth and true doctrine (and apologetics) are supremely important. The soul or the heart cannot rejoice and abide by what the mind rejects as false.

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[further discussion in the original combox]

Let’s try something different. I’ll start where we agree and then move to areas we may not. 

You state, “…[the Bible] forbids murder of persons.” I quite agree.

You also state, “It [the Bible] defines the preborn child as indeed human and a person…”

I am not persuaded this is necessarily true, however I agree that if one defines life (or personhood or humanity—whatever word you choose to use) to start at conception, one can use verses to support that argument.

In other words, I agree the Bible condemns murder of humans. And I agree one could use verses referring to fetuses, and events surrounding fetuses, to imply the fetus carries the characteristics of being human, as well as the rights thereof. And by combining those two concepts, one could reasonably argue the Bible condemns abortion.

However…

There are a few sticking points that cause me concern. Primarily the approach. If one first concludes life starts at conception, and then looks for support (a top-down method), they can find biblical support. But if one starts with the data to then derive a conclusion (a bottom-up method) it is not nearly as clear. I’ll address individual concerns:

Poetic Inferences

“Psalm 139:15 says babies are made underground. That’s not true. The Bible is false.”

Okay, Okay, I’m not really claiming that; but what would your response be if I did? You would (I presume) correctly note this is poetic literature, and not meant to be literally read. The Psalmist didn’t mean people were literally sharpening their tongues (Ps. 139:3) or had poison on their lips; the Psalmist is using symbolic language to convey a meaning. 

According to the great Lutheran Hebraist scholar Franz Delitzsch (1813-1890):

As Adam was formed from the earth, so “the mother’s womb out of which the child of Adam comes forth is the earth out of which it is taken.”

So sure, it is a poetic expression, but it refers to literal things, just as poetic expressions of love ultimately refer to real things: the woman we love. Just because something has a poetic element does not automatically, intrinsically exclude literal referents. You can concentrate on this sort of detail, but it doesn’t overcome the overall thrust of the passage. It teaches that God formed every person, and that they were human and persons from conception:

Psalm 139:13-16 For thou didst form my inward parts, thou didst knit me together in my mother’s womb. I praise thee, for thou art fearful and wonderful. Wonderful are thy works! Thou knowest me right well; my frame was not hidden from thee, when I was being made in secret, intricately wrought in the depths of the earth. Thy eyes beheld my unformed substance; in thy book were written, every one of them, the days that were formed for me, when as yet there was none of them.

From our biological knowledge now, we know that a new person is formed as soon as the DNA of his or her two parents is combined. That is when a new person begins. We know that. It’s undeniable. There is no other non-arbitrary starting point. The ancient Hebrews didn’t know this, but when they are referring to God forming and knitting together this “thing” in the womb, they referred to “it” as “me”; therefore they obviously thought of “it” as a person; a human being; identical with the same “biological entity” that it developed into after “it” was born. Thus, Mary was “with child” etc.

There is not the slightest question about any of this.

To claim a “contradiction” by literally applying poetic symbolism is an atrocious exegesis. 

In the same way, we need to be careful to avoid the same error by using poetry to make literal claims—that somehow a fetus obtains humanity by reference within poetry. Job 38:7 says stars have mouths and Job 38:8 says the sea has a womb. Do we grant stars and the sea to have actual human characteristics because poetry ascribes it certain attributes? Of course not.

Psalms is not without many literal utterances, too. After all, even poetry cannot exist without real, literal things that are the subject of the poetry.

But it is easy to determine what is meant to be literal by simple cross-referencing. If a passage (about preborns, in our discussion) in the Psalms can be cross-referenced in other biblical literature that is not primarily poetic, then we can safely assume that it is meant to be taken literally.

In any event, the biblical argument does not rest on just the Psalms, anyway, by a long shot. You can try this argument, but it fails, and there are still scores more passages you have to explain (away).

Again, one could certainly use these verses to bolster the argument a fetus has special significance—I just don’t see the verses themselves making the argument.

When does life start?

Ancient Near East had a different concept of gestation due to the influence of an agricultural society. They understood one plants a seed under dirt. Waits a bit. And a plant begins to grow right where the seed was. Since the seed disappeared, and they weren’t stupid, they understood the plant came from the seed.

In the same way, a man ejaculates into a woman. After a bit, she starts to swell with the “plant” or baby growing inside. Eventually the baby breaks the surface, and is born. It was reasoned–just like a plant–the man planted a seed; it grew in the female, and then came forth.

What was not clear was when life particularly started. The Bible repeatedly refers to life=breath. No breath; no life. Life; breath. I wrote on it here. While I think an argument can be made that the Bible indicates life begins at conception, I think equally an argument could be made the Bible states life begins with breath. A slightly better argument, in fact. 

Unfortunately, we don’t have the actual authors to interview as to their meaning. Yes, one can use the top-down approach, first concluding life begins at conception and then finding verses to support it. But equally one could use the same method and first conclude life begins with breath and equally find verses to support it.

I wonder whether the method is the correct one to use.

Of course the Greek philosophers concentrated on when ensoulment happened, arriving at 40 days after conception for boys and 90 days after conception for girls.

The Bible on life beginning at conception (RSV):

Psalm 51:5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me.

[What was conceived was David (“I / “me”). As soon as he began to exist, he had iniquity (original sin)]

Jeremiah 1:5 Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I appointed you a prophet to the nations.

[What was “formed” was indeed Jeremiah. That takes it right back to the very beginning. The Jews may not have known their biology, but God knew about it. But the Jews could say, “God formed me” without knowing all the details. Now, if God knew Jeremiah even before he was conceived, he could hardly have not been Jeremiah when he was conceived, as if he existed more so before he was conceived than after. Therefore, he was a person from the instant of his conception]

Numbers 5:28 But if the woman has not defiled herself and is clean, then she shall be free and shall conceive children.

Isaiah 49:5 And now the LORD says, who formed me from the womb to be his servant, . . .

Luke 1:36 And behold, your kinswoman Elizabeth in her old age has also conceived a son; and this is the sixth month with her who was called barren.

The Bible supports the fact that human life and persons begin at conception. It’s not a prior assumption merely eisegeted into the Bible. It’s really there. That’s why the Church Fathers condemned abortion and all Christian traditions did as well until 40-50 years ago or so when many liberal denominations began caving into the secularist zeitgeist. There is a reason for that. It is because this is what the Bible had always taught.

Intentional termination of Pregnancy

Here is the crux of the matter. There are no biblical verses explicitly condemning intentional termination of pregnancy. You mention 100 passages “having to do with abortion in many of its aspects.” Great! Out of those 100—give us one (1) that says explicitly states, “Don’t have an abortion.” 

(I didn’t respond to all 100 passages, which will probably disappoint you. I concentrate on passages that have to do with abortion—intentional termination of pregnancy. Not verses that mention someone is pregnant. Not verses referring to infanticide. In my opinion, by listing verses such as Gen. 25:21, stating “Rebekah became pregnant” as having to do with abortion only weakens the argument. Makes it look like the person is reaching; if this is what they rely upon to get to some magical number like “100.”) 

Again (because I fear this will get lost) one can infer it from combining other passages—I am asking for one statement directly on point. 

. . . the New Testament writings . . .  don’t say a word condemning abortion. (Or the infanticide, either.) One could argue it was not mentioned because the option was not available to Christians. . . . 

Non-canonical Christian writings directly addressed abortion—condemning it. Yet the canonical writings of the Bible are silent.

Finally, we should note this article on the historical fluctuations regarding abortion in the early church.

And I counter that linked article with these:

Abortion and the Church Fathers (Catholic Answers)

Abortion, Contraception and the Church Fathers (Fr. Mitch Pacwa, S. J.)

Early Church Fathers: Excerpts Pertaining to Abortion (Priests for Life)

Pro-Life Activist’s Encyclopedia, American Life League: Chapter 43: “Abortion and the Catholic Church”

Excerpt:

Both Saints Thomas and Jerome recognized that ensoulment and abortion were two distinct and separate issues. They both condemned abortion in the strongest possible terms (see Figure 43-2 for one of St. Jerome’s statements against abortion).

In any case, the matter of when the body is ‘ensouled’ has historically made no difference to the Catholic Church; see the quotes in Figure 43-2 by Saints Basil and Jerome, for proof. It is quite obvious from the language he uses that St. Basil had extensive experience in dealing with Fourth Century pro-abortion doublespeak.

DagoodS’ link above also dishonesty sought to enlist St. Augustine (354-430) as a pro-abortion “witness”. In fact, he (like Basil and Jerome and many other Church fathers) made his opposition to all abortion quite clear:

Sometimes this lustful cruelty or cruel lust goes so far as to seek to procure a baneful sterility, and if this fails the fetus conceived in the womb is in one way or another smothered or evacuated, in the desire to destroy the offspring before it has life, or if it already lives in the womb, to kill it before it is born. If both man and woman are party to such practices they are not spouses at all; and if from the first they have carried on thus they have come together not for honest wedlock, but for impure gratification; if both are not party to these deeds, I make bold to say that either the one makes herself a mistress of the husband, or the other simply the paramour of his wife. (De Nuptius et Concupiscus [“On Marriage and Concupiscence”], 1.17)

It remains rather self-evident that the Bible condemns abortion in the fashion that I have described. Human beings are conceived by God and are regarded as persons from the beginning, and not to be murdered, just like any other person. There doesn’t have to be a statement specifically about abortion because it is included in the broader condemnations of murder already. It is unreasonable to demand it.

Frankly, I was not that interested in this discussion as it was.

That would explain the lack of interaction with my arguments! We all have our interests. I understand that.

My viewpoints regarding exegetical arguments on abortion are not exactly riveting. I only commented out of courtesy to you, because you seemed so fired-up about it. You are free to reply or not. It is the internet, after all.

Okay. My perspective was that it was an illustrative test case of how a Christian loses his way, in misunderstanding biblical teaching (which, in this area, remains quite clear, in my opinion).

I have nothing personally against you. My task as an apologist is to offer counter- arguments and show that the arguments against Christianity and the traditional interpretation of the Bible do not succeed.

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Related Reading:

“DagoodS” Deconversion Story: Critique and Truncated Dialogue [9-20-07]

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(originally 12-13-10; expanded on 3-14-19)

Photo credit: [Max PixelCreative Commons Zero – CC0 license]

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April 21, 2017

ShatteredGlass

Photograph by “||read||” (5-28-09) [Flickr / CC BY 2.0 license]

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(9-20-07)

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“DagoodS” is a friendly atheist with whom I have had many enjoyable dialogues in the past (usually about alleged biblical contradictions) [later we met in person several times]. Recently on his blog I asked him if he could write out his “deconversion” story for me to critique, and he has commenced doing so. His words will be in blue:

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Where is your deconversion story? May I critique it, or would you be likely to get all angry and throw a hissy-fit like John Loftus did when I critiqued his? :-)

I highly suspect you would not, based on my pleasant past experience in discussions with you, but it never hurts to ask. I didn’t think he would get angry, either, based on his sublime, lofty rhetoric on good discourse, posted on his blog.

. . . There is something to be said for good old-fashioned flat-out disagreements talked about amiably. That’s about as rare as ice on the sun anymore, sadly . . . but it’s something that all open-minded thinkers of any stripe hold in common. Thus I can feel that affinity with you (as I would with, e.g., the ancient Greeks), despite disagreements on theism, etc.

I have never written out, nuts-to-bolts, my deconversion story. Partly because it is not that interesting, partly because I am far more interested in the arguments themselves, not necessarily the background of the person (hence my own background fades in importance), and partly because it seems sowellnarcissist, perhaps? Does the world really care as to the mechanics of yet another deconvert?

I am uncertain what there is to critique. I am on fairly safe ground to presume you think I did something wrong, because I ended up a non-theist, and you are a theist. Where is the surprise in that?

But if you are truly THAT interested, I can put together something. It would help to know what you are looking to critique. Do you want me to start with being born in a log cabin I built with my own hands? Do you only want the point from There is something rotten in Denmark or where?

Thanks.

Yep, I’m highly interested indeed. Since I consider you one of the best, most reasonable atheist dialogue partners I have encountered, I’m very curious as to the actual process that led to your forsaking of Christianity. And of course I want to critique that (as you would expect, me being an apologist and all) and try to show that the reasons were inadequate.

. . . what I am interested in the most in your deconversion story [is] the validity or invalidity of the arguments that brought about your change.

Thanks for being willing to put something together for my sake.

I’d like to see exactly what you believed — broadly speaking — as a Christian (what tradition), and then see exactly what caused you to lose confidence in that worldview and how that process worked.

I think it would be good for you to sort out your own thoughts and opinions and give them a form that you can present to others. I know that always helps me when I am trying to clearly express something or other in my writing. You get it down on paper and then it is good for future reference and for “taking stock” of where you have been and where you are now.

[The first installment of his deconversion — dealing only with his childhood — was then posted on his blog; please read before continuing, or my replies will be considerably more difficult to follow]

Certainly this couldn’t be the level of sophistication and complexity that you had of what Christian theology teaches about God as you got older . . .

God as a ticked-off babysitter of errant adolescents trying to get one more ride on the Demon Drop?

No; I refuse to believe that this will be the sort of thing that ultimately made you become an atheist. I look forward to your future installments, whereby you show me that you have / had a decent adult understanding of Christian theology and the Christian worldview.

* * *

Dave Armstrong, I had hoped that one could see a bit more depth than a childhood tale of Cedar Point. (Liked the reference to the Demon Drop.) . . .

Do you see what I did as a child? I created a God in my own image. I (generally) liked the rules with an occasional infraction. My God liked the rules with an occasional infraction. I tended to be rebellious, and lo and behold, what does my God like? A child with a bit of rebellion in him.

Is that not what most humans do? If they believe by faithby golly their God likes faith. If they are an intellectby golly their God is proven by logic and reason. Hate gays; so does their God. Love gays; so does their god. If their God makes them lose their job; it is a punishment, or a testing or an opportunity. Because that is what they would do as a God.

While this may be a very simplistic childish depiction of God, coming out of a simple childish human, it is only the greater sophistication of adulthood, and greater ability to rationalize that creates a greater god. The god may change, but the method stays the same.

I fear my presentation of subtlety is not going to get any better. Hey YOU are the one that started me on this jag; are you complaining already? grin

This is one of the standard, garden variety atheist arguments: religion is simply infantile projection and thinking. Adults grow out of that and get smart and become atheists, but alas, Christians and other theists stay infantile.

If that is where you are going with this, then I am not impressed. I never am with the “psychological” argument against Christianity as a crutch or mere projection, etc.

I want to see if you had (as an adult), an intelligent, self-consistent apologetic and theological understanding. And why you rejected that; not simply psychological analysis.

The god may change, but the method stays the same.

Of course I dispute this. Many people may well indeed think like this (I don’t deny it; lotsa folks think all kinds of goofy things) but that is irrelevant to the truth claims of Christianity. It only reveals truths about these peoples’ method or interior disposition, not about Christianity itself. And hence it is irrelevant.

Unless you deny that Christianity makes truth claims that can be objectively weighed and then accepted or rejected, we can’t talk about it at all. What do I care about the psychological states of other people in relation to God (i.e., as a totality of why they believe or disbelieve in God, wholly apart from theological considerations and propositions)? How does that resolve whether there is a God or not, to the slightest degree?

Besides, if you want to play the game like that, the tables can be turned, and we can argue that many atheists become that because they had no father or a lousy relationship with their fathers, and projected this onto God, and hence rejected Him. Psychiatrist Paul Vitz has made this very argument:

The Defective Father Psychological Theory of Atheism / Christian Emotionalism and Fideism

I wrote in the above paper, near the end:

Paul Vitz’s argument is a completely justifiable rhetorical, turning-the-tables tactic along the lines of “you wish to argue that Christians are psychologically warped and in need of infantile crutches?; very well then, I submit the same sort of speculations a, b, and c with regard to atheism.” Such an argument, it should be noted, does not necessarily mean that the one making it agrees with all (or even any) of the content.

. . . It is always easier, it seems, to dish out a particular criticism (the psychological arguments as to why Christians hold their beliefs) than it is to see its possible relevance to one’s own view. I readily admit that some Christians do indeed need psychological crutches (but so what, I say; who cares about the poorest representatives of any view?). But I have seen precious little of atheists admitting similar types of shortcomings to any extent amongst atheists. I maintain that the percentage of psychological abnormality is likely to be the same in both groups.

 

* * * * *

Micah Cowan is another former evangelical Protestant, now atheist (see his views on religion). His words will be in green:

If DagoodS had concluded that his theological understanding had been intelligent and self-consistent, he would not have rejected it; that’s kind of the whole point.

That doesn’t follow. Consistency is only one test of truth. The truth or falsity of premises is equally important (and how one arrives at them, etc., and what axioms one accepts and why). If the premises are rejected, then the consistent system built upon them is also rejected.

What I was driving at was whether DagoodS even had a decently consistent, cogent worldview as a Christian. I want to know how much he thought through things then, while he still had his Christian presuppositions.

Did he only really start seriously thinking in a skeptical direction? If so, then to compare his later view to his incomplete and insufficient earlier view would be unfair. One would have to compare it with a theistic view that had been appropriately and sufficiently thought through: the best of one school against the best of the other.

It tells us nothing of the truth or falsity of Christianity or of theism for DagoodS to simply tell us that he gave up one inadequate, fallacious, inconsistent worldview for another. I will be examining what he used to believe very closely. So far we have gotten psychology, which proves nothing whatever by means of ontology and metaphysics.

Christians, especially those who had primarily “happy and rewarding” experiences with Christianity, generally become Ex-Christians only through the conviction that all Christian theological and apologetic understanding is fundamentally inconsistent.

But presuming that they didn’t believe their own Christian views (when they held them) were absurd and incoherent, this is where they changed their mind: from believing that they had a consistent system, then reversing that opinion. But why did they do it? Something objective has to be present to cause them to reject one system for another (if we can talk at all about it).

So the answer to your question, by definition, is “no”, he did not have an intelligent and self-consistent apologetic and theological understanding,

That doesn’t follow, because it makes no sense. Obviously, if he was a thinker at all, he must have thought that his old belief-system had coherence and was plausible while he held it. Then he rejected it for whatever reasons he shall reveal to us in due course. He either held that sort of belief and rejected it, or did not have anywhere near a self-consistent, respectable Christian belief-system.

My job is to show that the reasons he gives for rejecting Christianity fail. I’ve done that with his first observation: the psychological stuff. It not only fails; it is no argument at all to become a Christian or atheist or cross-eyed vegetarian homosexual Rastafarian.

From reading your past several comments, two things are becoming apparent to me: one is that you do not seem to be remotely open to the possibility that he could actually have a sound and reasonable conclusion that has lead to his deconversion;

It would be quite difficult for a Christian to hold such a view. But I’m looking to see what his reasons are precisely because I respect his thinking abilities. Likewise, any atheist worth his or her salt cannot admit, by definition, that a Christian has sufficient reason to adopt that view. That’s just the nature of competing propositions. It has nothing necessarily to do with arrogance or intolerance or anything of the sort (though it could in certain hands).

your very request for a deconversion story made it clear that your aim was to discredit, and not to evaluate for reason, rationality or truth.

If DagoodS succeeds in showing us why we all ought to reject Christianity and proves his case, then I will be more than happy to join him in the atheist fold.

In other words, you already have the truth, so anyone who holds an opposing view could not possibly be right.

I believe what I hold to be true, just as an atheist does. No difference. One always holds open the possibility that another view could be more correct. I’ve yet to see an atheist argument that persuaded me; atheists haven’t seen a persuasive Christian argument. No difference again. So why stress such a moot point that applies to everyone? Everyone believes something.

For this reason, I was mildly surprised that DagoodS actually responded with a deconversion story (though he has not yet completed doing so ;) ). There is little to be gained in presenting arguments to someone who has already indicated an unwillingness to listen.

If DagoodS thinks that of me, I shall leave his blog and never comment here again, nor interact with him. But that is up to him to decide, not you or anyone else. He hasn’t been persuaded by Christian arguments, either. I fail to see the essential difference. Because he hasn’t yet, therefore he must be closed-minded and has already made up his mind, etc.? It doesn’t follow. One can be open-minded, but simply not persuaded of something else.

I’ve changed my mind about many major things. I used to believe in the occult and pro-choice and was virtually a secularist, then an evangelical, then a Catholic. I was far more politically and sexually liberal in the past. So I don’t need the smarmy lectures about being closed-minded until you learn more about my own past history of being persuaded of different viewpoints.

If I know anything from what I’ve seen of DagoodS’ refreshingly modest style of writing, then I can confidently state that he, on the other hand, is willing to be proved wrong.

So am I, as I just proved from my own past history. You can’t demonstrate that he is any more open than I am to changing his mind. You really think it is likely he will become a Christian again? It’s not very likely. Nor is it that I will become an atheist. Doesn’t mean people can’t talk.

He is willing to honestly evaluate arguments and points being made to him, but has found them so far to be wanting.

Exactly the same in my case, and you can’t prove any differently. You act as if Christian arguments and apologetics MUST be closed-minded and couldn’t be otherwise. But that is sheer emotional bias.

But by now he is also battle-wizened, and I doubt he will spend much effort towards attempting to convince the obviously inconvincible.

Again, that is up to him, not you. I enjoy my dialogues with him. If he finds me wearisome and invincibly ignorant and intellectually obstinate, then he can say so, instead of a third party speculating about such things.

The other thing that is apparent to me is that you are expecting people to come up with convincing arguments against God, where in fact Ex-Christians never have those (it is logically impossible to disprove God).

I never stated such a thing. I’m interested in why DagoodS rejected Christianity: on what basis? Many things appear to be “apparent” to you about me that simply aren’t true, or don’t follow.

Instead, they are people who have become convinced that there are no substantial arguments for God, and realize that a rational person must not presume that something exists until a reasonable case can be made that it does.

I will read on with great interest. Thanks for the lecture. How, alas, could I have lasted another day (or live with myself) without it?

* * * * *

Thank you, micah cowan for your outstanding and encouraging post.

Well, I suppose it would be if someone says you are the greatest open-minded thinker since Socrates and runs your opponent down as intolerably dogmatic. I shall wait and see if you accept his jaded speculations in his “outstanding post” about my interior states of mind as well. If so, then our days of discussion are numbered.

Dave Armstrong wanted my story, as it were. Yes, I could write, My Christian Doctrine Held X and here are all the arguments for and the arguments against. I was persuaded by the arguments against. Next, my Christian Doctrine Held Instead I decided to dive headlong into self-absorbed narcissism and write my story in such a way that it would be of interest to people who already knew me AND would not quite be the same boring historical account.

Then it may not be for me, since I was interested in what you claimed to be centered upon: “I am far more interested in the arguments themselves.”

Simply put I am unabashedly writing my own story in my own idiom. Because it is my story, there will be bits that are not persuasive, bits that seem silly, and bits that may not conform to internet debate. I would dearly love to write how I read Eusebius entire works by age 8, read both Koine Greek and Hebrew by age 9, and was translating Coptic Manuscripts by age 11.

Good for you. A thirst for knowledge . . .

No, Dave Armstrong, I was not saying that all Christianity is infantile projection or thinking. (Some Christians do. But, as you correctly point out, this is a mark of humanity, not Christianity. Some atheists, agnostics, skeptics, deists, Jews and any other theistic demarcation do as well.)

Good. One remark near the end sounded to me like this was going to be the central thesis of the deconversion. I’m happy to see that is not the case.

Unless you deny that Christianity makes truth claims that can be objectively weighed and then accepted or rejected, we can’t talk about it at all.

Ah and there we return to the perpetual question between you and I, eh? Weighed by whom? Accepted or Rejected by whom?

You and I. Unless we agree upon some objective standards at the presuppositional and axiomatic levels, then we can’t talk in terms of competing and disputing opposing ideas.

I agree that Christianity makes truth claims. I agree that those claims can be weighed objectively by neutral parties. And those claims can be accepted or rejected by neutral parties.

There are no neutral parties. But admitting that does not mean that therefore no objective discussion is possible. If that is your position, then all discussion is futile. You’re just preaching to the choir, in which case, it would be perfectly ridiculous for me to offer my respectful dissent as a Christian outsider to your worldview.

But you used to hold something akin to my worldview, and that is what interests me. If you’re out there saying that Christianity fails because of a, b, c, and d, and no one in your former circles could ever answer your hard questions, etc., then I should think you would be happy that I am here to fill that role that you longed for someone to fill and never found. And my interest is in showing Christians that your arguments against Christianity fail, just as you think there are no compelling arguments in favor of Christianity.

But you claim (if I recall. And I do) that there ARE no such thing as neutral parties.

Yes! I did it again right now! Good memory.

If we have no neutral parties, how can Christianity’s claims be objectively weighed?

To the best of our abilities, fairly, and with as much rational objectivity as non-neutral parties can muster up. That’s how it is in any field of study. It’s just how it is. There ain’t no clean slates.

Which one of us denies Christianity makes truth claims that can be objectively weighed?

You, if you believe that because no one is perfectly objective, therefore objective propositions cannot be discussed with a modicum of attempted objectivity. I am not nearly that epistemologically skeptical. I simply admit the truism that we all have biases and axioms, and all have unproven and unprovable assumptions. That actually is a commonality between atheists and theists, but oftentimes the atheist will pretend that he has no such axioms, which is absurd.

***

I had set about critiquing the deconversion story of atheist DagoodS. He actually started writing it at my request. Alas, now that he has barely started to get to some actual reasons why he or anyone else should reject Christianity, he is expressing such trepidation, and predicting that I won’t agree with his reasoning (wow, what a revelation there!) that I have no choice but to back out altogether.

I have less than no desire to find myself embroiled in another tremendous controversy (a la the sad fiasco with John Loftus) over daring to disagree with an atheist’s reasoning (i.e., insofar as it is at all) for why he is an atheist. I’m tired of (usually needless) controversy, period. I’ve had enough of that with the anti-Catholics and was seeking some good discussion. But if there is ill feeling and uneasiness it just isn’t worth it for me. I’m sick to death of it.

DagoodS even incorporated the recent controversy over my referring to an anti-Catholic as an “ass” (thoroughly deserved and justified, and on biblical grounds) as supposedly evidence that my reasoning was no better than the goofy legalist fundamentalism that he forsook in due course. Clever, original, and nice try (one can’t help but admire the eccentricity  of it), but no cigar there. Here is the latest exchange on his blog (his words in blue):

Using Pharisees as a justification for calling another person names? Those legalistic fundamentalists are nodding and slapping themselves on the back with approval of this tactic.

Come on! This is hardly even original. [ link ] (Although I ask a good question in that blog. Just because you have a right to do it, do you have to do it?)

Dave Armstrong, I am telegraphing that I believe you will be disappointed in our discussion. I have considered, off and on, writing my deconversion story. Your offer to critique it was obviously just the spur I needed to do so. Thank you.

But Part of my job entails predicting outcomes. The smart money is predicting that you will find that I had the wrong sort of Christianity. That is not terribly interesting to me. Whether I was, in your estimation, 99% correct or 99% incorrect, it is my past. Absent a time machine, there is nothing I can do about it.

If that is the conclusion, as I strongly suspect it will be, I can only shrug. (Remember, I think ALL Christianity is theologically incorrect, so telling me [again] my former belief was wrong is not exactly a news flash.)

I can only move forward; not backward. So where do I go from here? I would think the best route would be to inspect what you claim is the most correct Christianity; presumably yours.

And as I look at yours, I am not convinced. Calling someone an ass is not prone to generate peace. It is not edifying. Rom. 14:19. It is not loving another. It is not loving your enemy. It is not helpful for building up others. Eph. 4:29.

But I guess none of that means much to you. You think you are justified to do so, and will hold your ground in that regard, no matter what. (Again, the legalistic fundamentalists nod their heads in approval.)

I see this eventually ending with you telling me that my Christianity is wrong. I shrug. You then inform me your Christianity is correct. I look at it, and likewise shrug. If that is correct Christianity, I was unconvinced by it when I believed in a god. I am sure to be even less convinced now that I do not.

Hi DagoodS,

Very well, then. I’ll stop critiquing now and stop reading further installments. It’s obviously too sensitive to you and I’d like to discuss other things, so I will desist.

You haven’t dealt with my reasoning. You simply restated your opinion, but it is no better now than it was the first time. If Jesus can describe someone as a “viper” when they richly deserve it, then I can call someone a donkey when they richly deserve it. Sin can be rebuked. That is quite biblical.

If I sinned in doing so, then so did Jesus. If Jesus didn’t, then there are times one can do this and I didn’t sin, either, since I have more than abundant reason to call this person an ass.

Not only can it be rebuked, but we are commanded again and again to avoid divisive people who engage in worthless conversation:

2 Timothy 3:2-5 For men will be lovers of self, . . . proud, arrogant, abusive, . . . implacable, slanderers, . . . swollen with conceit . . . Avoid such people . . .

1 Timothy 1:4, 6 . . . nor to occupy themselves with myths and endless genealogies which promote speculations rather than the divine training that is in faith . . . vain discussion . . .

2 Timothy 2:14 . . . avoid disputing about words which does no good, but only ruins the hearers.

Titus 3:9-11 But avoid stupid controversies, genealogies, dissensions, and quarrels over the law, for they are unprofitable and futile. As for a man who is factious, after admonishing him once or twice, have nothing more to do with him, knowing that such a person is perverted and sinful; he is self-condemned.

Romans 16:17 Mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine ye have learned; and avoid them.

2 Timothy 2:23 Have nothing to do with stupid, senseless controversies; you know that they breed quarrels.

1 Timothy 6:3-5 If anyone teaches otherwise and does not agree with the sound words of our Lord Jesus Christ and the teaching which accords with godliness, he is puffed up with conceit, he knows nothing; he has a morbid craving for controversy and for disputes about words, which produce envy, dissension, slander, base suspicions, and wrangling among men who are depraved in mind and bereft of the truth, imagining that godliness is a means of gain.

There are tons of passages with biblical rebukes. According to your mentality, you would have to say that all of them are sinful and improper and unethical. For example:

Philippians 3:17-19 Brethren, join in imitating me, and mark those who so live as you have an example in us. For many, of whom I have often told you and now tell you even with tears, live as enemies of the cross of Christ. Their end is destruction, their god is the belly, and they glory in their shame, with minds set on earthly things.

I am telegraphing that I believe you will be disappointed in our discussion.

And that is why it’s doomed and I’ve already gotten out of it. Your choice.

April 12, 2016

ContradictionFractal

A rendering of a Lyapunov fractal, a type of bifurcational fractal named after Russian mathematician Aleksandr Lyapunov. Image from BernardH: a French mathematician: 28 July 2006 [Wikimedia Commons / Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike 3.0 Unported license]

*****

These exchanges were fun, and in my opinion, prime examples of the inability of atheists (even former Christian ones, as this person is) to do cogent, sensible, plausible Bible interpretation. They just can’t do it. They are caught up in their own inconsistencies and hostility to established facts time and again (and, frankly, ignorance of the biblical text and a broad knowledge of Christian systematic theology). I’ve always noted that an atheist approaches the Bible the way a butcher approaches a hog. They’ll never understand it (even before they determine if they believe it or not) with this mentality.

***

“DagoodS” is a very thoughtful, sharp guy who likes to write about Christianity and particularly the Bible. He used to be what he calls a “fundamentalist” Protestant. He’s a lawyer. I have met him in real life several times. He’s part of a group of atheists that I have hung around with, now and then, and gotten along well with, for the most part.

***

Most of these exchanges (but not all) had to do with alleged Bible difficulties.

The posts and debates formerly listed here are now all posted on my Atheism and Agnosticism page, under the category of “DagoodS”.

***
July 16, 2021

Atheist anti-theist Jonathan M. S. Pearce is the main writer on the blog, A Tippling Philosopher. His “About” page states: “Pearce is a philosopher, author, blogger, public speaker and teacher from Hampshire in the UK. He specialises in philosophy of religion, but likes to turn his hand to science, psychology, politics and anything involved in investigating reality.” His words will be in blue.

*****

I am responding to a portion of Pearce’s article, Exodus Sidebar: Replying to Armstrong about Camels (5-24-21). Pearce enlists Donald B. Redford, whom he describes as an “eminent Canadian Egyptologist and archaeologist” for his cause of biblical skepticism:

[A]nachronisms do indeed abound, robbing the book [Judges] of the credence one might have placed in it. Iron is common for chariots and implements (cf. Jud. 1:19; 4:3 13; cf. 1 Sam. 13:19-21), although historically it did not replace bronze until well into the monarchy. [Egypt, Canaan, and Israel In Ancient Times, Princeton University Press, 1992, p. 277]

Let’s look at those Bible passages (and another related one):

Joshua 17:16 (RSV) The tribe of Joseph said, “The hill country is not enough for us; yet all the Canaanites who dwell in the plain have chariots of iron, both those in Beth-she’an and its villages and those in the Valley of Jezreel.”

Judges 1:19 And the LORD was with Judah, and he took possession of the hill country, but he could not drive out the inhabitants of the plain, because they had chariots of iron.

Judges 4:2-3 And the LORD sold them into the hand of Jabin king of Canaan, who reigned in Hazor; the commander of his army was Sis’era, who dwelt in Haro’sheth-ha-goiim. [3] Then the people of Israel cried to the LORD for help; for he had nine hundred chariots of iron, and oppressed the people of Israel cruelly for twenty years.

Judges 4:13 Sis’era called out all his chariots, nine hundred chariots of iron, . . .

1 Samuel 13:19 . . . Now there was no smith to be found throughout all the land of Israel . . .

Redford seems to assume that “smith” in the latter passage presupposes work with iron, but historically, blacksmiths were not confined to working with iron. Wikipedia (“Blacksmith”; section, Before the Iron Age”) noted that “During the Chalcolithic era and the Bronze Age, humans in the Mideast learned how to smelt, melt, cast, rivet, and (to a limited extent) forge copper and bronze.” So it’s not a foregone conclusion that “smiths” here is referring to a blacksmith who worked with iron; and even if this was the intent, note that it said there was no such person in Israel; the Philistines dominated the trade in the area (1 Sam 13:20). In 1 Samuel, in RSV, “iron” appears only once, referring to shekels (coins): in 17:7. The Hebrew word here, charash (Strong’s word #2796) is defined by the Brown-Driver-Briggs Lexicon as “worker in metal.”

Joshua, the successor of Moses, is thought by many to have lived in the 13th century BC, and this is the time of the “conquest” of Canaan by Israel. Judges 1:1 announces his death. I gave evidences from archaeology for these events in my papers, No Evidence for Joshua’s Conquest? (5-28-21), and Joshua’s Altar on Mt. Ebal: Findings of Recent Archaeology (7-22-14). This period is right at the end of the Bronze Age and the beginning of the Iron Age (1200 BC). I shall argue that iron chariots, or at least, iron-plated chariots, were indeed historically plausible in Canaan at this time. And this is the claim: that Israel’s enemies possessed them and were, therefore, difficult to defeat in battle.

The book of Judges (whether compiled later or not) deals with the historical period from approximately 1200 BC (again, the beginning of the Iron Age) to the appearance of Saul as Israel’s first king, around 1037-1010 BC: which event is dealt with in 1 Samuel. Thus, the first thing to recognize is that we are already in the Iron Age; thus, use of iron in chariots would seem to be at least possible, though perhaps not prevalent. Remember, the skeptical claim is that iron chariots in these passages are anachronisms, that ought not be there at all. They are supposed to be historically inaccurate.

But let’s examine this question a bit more detail, shall we? Is what Judges reports so far-fetched, and some kind of myth? Wikipedia (“Blacksmith”) noted:

The Hittites of Anatolia first discovered or developed the smelting of iron ores around 1500 BC. They seem to have maintained a near monopoly on the knowledge of iron production for several hundred years, but when their empire collapsed during the Eastern Mediterranean upheavals around 1200 BC, the knowledge seems to have escaped in all directions.

The empire of the Hittites (c. 1600-c. 1180 BC), as one educational article devoted to it explained, took up roughly the eastern half of Asia Minor (present-day Turkey) and extended into the Levant, down to the city of Byblos (present-day Lebanon / ancient Phoenicia), as a map of the empire illustrates. The same article stated:

The Hittite military made successful use of chariots. Although their civilization thrived during the Bronze Age, the Hittites were the forerunners of the Iron Age and were manufacturing iron artifacts from as early as the 14th century BCE. Correspondence with rulers from other empires reveal a foreign demand for iron goods.

Wikipedia (“Canaan”) is clear that the Hittites played a key role among the Canaanites. It observes:

Canaan had significant geopolitical importance in the Late Bronze Age Amarna period (14th century BC) as the area where the spheres of interest of the Egyptian, HittiteMitanni and Assyrian Empires converged.

This article mentions the Hittites 13 times. The book of Judges mentions them twice (1:26; 3:5). Its map of ancient Canaan overlaps the map of the Hittite Empire, with three cities north of Byblos.

Nathaniel L. Erb-Satullo, an archaeologist who specializes in ancient metallurgy, wrote the article, “The Innovation and Adoption of Iron in the Ancient Near East” (Journal of Archaeological Research volume 27, pp. 557–607 [2019]). He wrote in the Abstract:

Current evidence supports an Anatolian origin for extractive iron metallurgy on a limited scale sometime in the early 2nd millennium BC. However, the first major expansion of iron, both in Anatolia and across the wider Near East, occurred in the late second and early first millennium BC.

This exactly corresponds to the Hittites being in the forefront of iron production. We know that they had chariots (very good ones), and that they were part of the Canaanites. Everything fits into the scenario that the Bible describes. There is no anachronism here!

The Biblical Archaeology Society’s Bible Review (April 1990) included a fascinating little snippet: “Did the Canaanites Really Have Iron Chariots?” It noted:

As recently as 1983, one commentator [J. F. A. Sawyer] has told us, “It is historically highly improbable… that the Canaanites were equipped with iron chariots before the end of the second millennium B.C.”

But the archaeological evidence is clearly to the contrary. The biblical text does not require us to suppose that the Canaanite chariots were wholly iron, but only that they were strengthened with it, as several commentators have realized. But as the evidence in the accompanying article [link] shows, iron was sufficiently available in the Late Bronze Age to make iron-plated chariots plausible. . . .

It is noteworthy that after the Book of Judges, the Hebrew writers never again describe chariots of “iron.” Either the metal was later a normal component of a chariot and so did not deserve mention, or “iron chariots” were in fashion only for a short period, perhaps as an experimental weapon. In any event, the evidence indicates that there is no reason to conclude that the Canaanite chariots of iron are an anachronism inserted by a later editor.

Dr. Alan Millard, Professor Emeritus of Hebrew and Ancient Semitic languages, and Honorary Senior Fellow (Ancient Near East), at the School of Archaeology, Classics and Egyptology (SACE) in the University of Liverpool, wrote a book chapter in 1992 entitled, “Back to the Iron Bed: Og’s or Procrustes’?” In it, he contends:

Chariots wholly of iron are unlikely; a form of iron plating is the commonly accepted understanding of the Hebrew words in Joshua and Judges (Josh. xvii 16,18; Judg. i 19, iv 3,13). After noting the very lightweight construction of Late Bronze Age chariots found in Egypt, Drews asserted, “iron plating would have immediately collapsed the fragile and flimsy frame” and “an ‘iron plated’ chariot is thus technological nonsense”. Moreover, “nowhere in the ancient world, at any period, are iron plated chariots attested” ([n. 2], p. 18). Initially, the impracticality of iron-plated chariots seems a major objection, but it depends upon the amounts and the application of the iron. Small-scale fittings, holding the axles or hubs, would be insufficient to give a distinctive name to the chariots, so a visible covering of some sort is best envisaged. That it was wholesale plating is not so certain, or necessary. In the Late Bronze Age bronze scales were commonly sewn on to cloth or leather garments to protect men and horses, they even covered helmets, and there are administrative ac counts of “hides for the storehouses for the coats of mail (to equip) 20 war chariots”. Although iron scale armour is not attested until much later, in neo-Assyrian times, the possibility of an experiment with iron in the 13th or 12th centuries B.C. cannot be ruled out. Whether in plates or scales, the iron would add greatly to the weight of the chariots, as Drews emphasized, yet only in proportion to the amount applied. Three or four thin plates hung over the front to protect the charioteer’s legs, which his hauberk did not cover, might have been thought worth the extra load. Once the heavier chariots were moving, they would be hard for opponents, especially foot-soldiers, to withstand. In the relatively rough and uneven terrain of much of Canaan, even in the plains where the iron chariots were stationed, the opportunity for long, fast runs would be limited, unlike Egypt and parts of Syria. Thus iron chariots become intelligible in the contexts where Joshua and Judges place them, and the threat they would pose to the Israelites is seen to be great.

Moreover, we have the evidence of chariot use by the Hittites (against the Egyptians) from the Battle of Kadesh (at a site in present-day Syria, in the Levant), from 1274 BC, or some 74 years or so before the time under consideration, referred to in the book of Judges. According to the Wikipedia article on the topic:

[It] is the earliest pitched battle in recorded history for which details of tactics and formations are known. It is believed to have been the largest chariot battle ever fought, involving between 5,000 and 6,000 chariots in total. As a result of discovery of multiple Kadesh inscriptions and the Egyptian–Hittite peace treaty, it is the best documented battle in all of ancient history.

I couldn’t find anything specifically referencing iron or iron-plated chariots in this battle, but it is a quite reasonable surmise that it was involved, seeing that the Hittites were probably the foremost practitioners of the use of iron in the world at the time.

Lord Edwin E. Hitti’s article, “Hittite Chariots” adds additional fascinating insights, as to how iron might have created a better chariot:

The Hittites were not inventors of the chariot, but did make major modifications, developed and produced chariots in huge quantities. Specifically, by creating the six-spoke wheels for the chariots to make them lighter and faster, yet still durable . . .

The Hittite chariots had a box serving as a cab, with an axle passing beneath it, which held 2 six-spoke wheels. The six-spoke wheel was an innovation developed by them. Other contemporary chariots of the Hittites had eight spoke[s], . . . The six-spoke[s] allowed the chariots to move faster because the wheels were light. Thus, with speed and light wheels, it became maneuverable.

The Egyptian chariot placed the wheels in the back of the box, and only held two men, a charioteer and a warrior. The limitation was weight; with the wheels so far back, leverage placed most of the weight on the horses, thereby slowing them down.

The Hittite chariot, in contrast, placed the wheels farther forward under the center of the box, which put the weight of the warriors over the axle and took the strain off of the horses, This allowed three men to ride, the charioteer and two warriors, which in effect doubled the number of fighting men that could be deployed with the same number of chariots.

The Hittite war chariot was made with iron hub wheels; this made their war chariot stronger, faster, and longer lasting. Also, the warriors in the chariot were armed with superior weapons. Their iron tipped arrows had much greater penetrating power that the copper and bronze arrows of the Egyptians, who were the Hittites main rivals. The war chariot was sometimes equipped with iron swords on the hubs to cut opposing infantry units [Ben Hur-style!].

Likewise, James D. Muhly, Emeritus Professor of Asian and Middle Eastern Studies at the University of Pennsylvania, in his article, “How Iron Technology Changed the Ancient World and Gave the Philistines a Military Edge” (Biblical Archaeology Review, vol. 8:6, Nov/Dec 1982), states:

The actual use of iron must have been confined to fittings, such as the hubs of the chariot’s wheels, perhaps even parts of the wheel itself. (The same explanation probably applies to the iron bedstead of Og, king of Bashan, in Deuteronomy 3:11.) Such iron chariot fittings have been recovered at Taanach, but unfortunately in an uncertain archaeological context.

Thus, it looks like we have two viable theories as to the use of iron in Hittite chariots: either as plating and/or in parts of the wheels only. In both cases, the extra weight wouldn’t be so great as to be a hindrance to performance, but the iron would provide a distinct advantage. This would explain why the Israelites had trouble defeating their opponents with chariots that included iron in some capacity.

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Related Reading

The Hittites: Atheist “DagoodS” Lies About Christian Apologists Supposedly Lying About How Biblical Critics Once Doubted Their Historical Existence [1-10-11, at Internet Archive]

Habitually “Lying” Christian Apologists?: 19th Century “Hittites Didn’t Exist” Radical Skepticism and Examination of Atheist DagoodS’ Replies and Charges [1-15-11, at Internet Archive]

Hittite Skeptics Chronicles, Part III: Specific Citations of Denial (Budge, Sumner, & Conder) and Biblical Historical Accuracy (in the Time of Elisha)  [1-19-11, at Internet Archive]

Great Hittite Wars, Part IV: Lying Christian Egyptologist M. G. Kyle?: Atheist DagoodS Disputes Sir A. E. Wallis Budge’s Reported Hittite Skepticism  [1-21-11, at Internet Archive]

“Higher” Hapless Haranguing of Hypothetical Hittites (19th C.) [7-7-20; abridgement of the four posts above]

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Photo credit: Frank K. (8-12-08). Orthostat relief in basalt; battle chariot, Carchemish, 9th century BC; Late Hittite style with Assyrian influence. Reconstructed panel on the left, original on the right [Wikimedia Commons / Creative Commons Attribution 2.0 Generic license]

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Summary: Critics of the Bible have attacked the mention of Canaanite iron chariots in Judges and Joshua, as alleged proof of historical inaccuracy and anachronism. I show how they are wrong.

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Tags: alleged Bible contradictions, alleged biblical anachronisms, ancient Hebrews, ancient Israelites, ancient Jews, anti-theism, archaeology & the Bible, archaeology & the Old Testament, atheists & the Bible, Bible “contradictions”, Bible “difficulties”, Bible & History, biblical accuracy, biblical anachronisms, biblical archaelogy, Bronze Age, Canaanite iron chariots, Canaanites, Hebrews, Hittites, Holy Bible, infallibility, Iron Age, iron chariots, Judges & iron chariots, Late Bronze Age, Old Testament & history

June 30, 2021

ARCHAEOLOGY AND THE BIBLE / BIBLICAL ARCHAEOLOGY  

Books by Dave Armstrong: The Word Set in Stone: How Archaeology, Science, and History Back Up the Bible [1-24-23]

Introduction for My Book: The Word Set in Stone: How Archaeology, Science, and History Back up the Bible + Near Eastern Archaeological Periods and Timeline of the Patriarchs [1-24-23]

“Dig Deep and Defend the Bible” [promotional article for for my book: The Word Set in Stone: How Archaeology, Science, and History Back up the Bible] [ Catholic Answers Magazine, 10 July 2023]

Free “Book”: The Word Set in Stone: “Volume Two”: More Evidence of Archaeology, Science, and History Backing Up the Bible (100 sections) [5-25-23]

15 Archaeological Proofs of Old Testament Accuracy (short summary points from my book, The Word Set in Stone) [National Catholic Register, 3-23-23]

15 Archaeological Proofs of New Testament Accuracy (short summary points from my book, The Word Set in Stone) [National Catholic Register, 3-30-23]

Abraham

Abraham, Warring Kings of Genesis 14, & History [7-31-21]

Ehrman Errors #1: Philistines, Beersheba, Bible Accuracy [3-18-22]

Sodom Obliterated (Chapter Four from my book, The Word Set in Stone: How Archaeology, Science, and History Back up the Bible) [1-26-23]

Walking the Journey of Abraham (Chapter Three from my book, The Word Set in Stone: How Archaeology, Science, and History Back up the Bible) [3-2-23]

Amorites

Arameans, Amorites, and Archaeological Accuracy [6-8-21]

Bethlehem

Archaeology & First-Temple Period Bethlehem [4-6-23]

Camels, Domestication of

Camels Help Bible Readers Get Over the Hump of Bible Skepticism [National Catholic Register, 7-21-21]

Pearce’s Potshots #67: Camels Make an Ass of a Man [3-1-22]

Chariots, Iron (Judges and Joshua)

Pearce’s Potshots #41: 13th c. BC Canaanite Iron Chariots [7-16-21]

David, Saul, and Solomon / Kingdoms of Judah and Israel

Rarity of Non-Biblical Mentions of King David Explained [9-16-21]

King Hezekiah: Exciting New Archaeological Findings [12-13-22]

Archaeology & Solomon’s Temple-Period Ivory [1-28-23]

Archaeology & King Rehoboam’s Wall in Lachish [1-31-23]

Archaeology Confirms Dates of Five Biblical Battles: Battles at Beth She’an (c. 926 BC), Beth Shemesh (c. 790 BC), Bethsaida & Kinneret (732 BC), and Lachish (701 BC) [2-6-23]

King David: from “Myth” to History (excerpt from my 2023 book, The Word Set in Stone: How Archaeology, Science, and History Back Up the Bible) [3-14-23]

“King David Versus King Arthur” is only available as Chapter Eleven of my book, The Word Set in Stone: How Archaeology, Science, and History Back Up the Bible (Catholic Answers Press: March 15, 2023)

King Solomon’s “Mines” & Archaeological Evidence [3-24-23]

Ziklag (David’s Refuge from Saul) & Archaeology [3-29-23]

King Ahab, Queen Jezebel, & Archaeology [4-7-23]

Fall of Jerusalem (586 B.C.), Archaeology, & Biblical Accuracy [4-10-23]

Assyrian King Sennacherib, the Bible, & Archaeology [4-17-23]

Archaeology & Ten (More) Kings of Judah & Israel [4-20-23]

Solomon’s “Impossible” (?) Wealth & Archaeology [4-25-23]

Solomon’s Temple and its Archaeological Analogies (Also, Parallels to Solomon’s Palace) [4-25-23]

The Queen of Sheba, Solomon, & Archaeology [4-27-23]

Archaeology, Solomon and the Queen of Sheba [National Catholic Register, 6-2-23]

Archaeology and King Solomon’s Mines [National Catholic Register, 6-29-23]

Was King David Mythical or Historical? [National Catholic Register, 7-24-23]

Edomites

Edomites: Archaeology Confirms the Bible (As Always) [6-10-21]

Pearce’s Potshots #42: 12th c. BC Moabite & Ammonite Kings (The Broad Definition of “King” in the Ancient Near East, + Biblical Use of  “Chiefs of Edom”) [7-19-21]

Exodus / Hebrew Bondage in Egypt

Seidensticker Folly #5: Has Archaeology Disproven the Exodus? [8-15-18]

A Pharaoh’s Death (Ex 2:23) & Exodus Chronology [7-27-22]

Egyptian Proof of Hebrew Slaves During Jacob’s Time [2-17-23]

When Was the Exodus: 15th or 13th Century B.C.? [4-15-23]

Evidence for Hebrews / Semites in Egypt: 2000-1200 B.C. [5-3-23]

Did the Hebrews Cross the Red Sea or the “Reed Sea”?: And Which Specific Body of Water Did They Cross, According to the Combined Deductions and Determinations of the Bible and Archaeology? [5-9-23]

Biblical Hebrew Names with an Egyptian Etymology [5-9-23]

Ezra

Garden of Eden

“Search for the Garden of Eden”: available only in Chapter One in my book, The Word Set in Stone: How Archaeology, Science, and History Back Up the Bible (Catholic Answers Press: March 15, 2023)

General

God: Historical Arguments (Copious Resources) [11-9-15]

Archaeology: Biblical Maximalism vs. Minimalism (+ Dates of the Patriarchs and Other Major Events and People in the Old Testament) [9-9-21]

OT & Archaeology: 25 Fascinating Confirmations (From Noah to Joshua”: the Hebrew Scripture is Extraordinarily Accurate & True to History) [9-21-21]

Timeline of the Patriarchs: A Summary [Facebook, 9-28-22]

Genesis: Table of Nations

Genesis 10 “Table of Nations”: Authentic History [8-25-21]

Table of Nations (Gen 10), Interpretation, & History [11-27-21]

Gerasenes / Gadarenes

Gadarenes, Gerasenes, Swine, & Atheist Skeptics  [7-25-17]

Gerasenes, Gadarenes, Pigs and “Contradictions” [National Catholic Register, 1-29-21]

Goliath

Goliath’s Height: Six Feet 9 Inches, 7 Feet 8, or 9 Feet 9? [7-4-21]

Gospels: Accuracy of

Are the Gospels & Acts “Propaganda”? (Unpacking a Statement from Historian A. N. Sherwin-White) [2-16-22]

Hebrew Language

Archaeology, Ancient Hebrew, & a Written Pentateuch (+ a Plausible Scenario for Moses Gaining Knowledge of Hittite Legal Treaties in His Egyptian Official Duties) [7-31-21]

Archaeology & a Proto-Hebrew Language in 1800 BC [1-31-23]

Hittites

The Hittites: Atheist “DagoodS” Lies About Christian Apologists Supposedly Lying About How Biblical Critics Once Doubted Their Historical Existence [1-10-11, at Internet Archive]

Habitually “Lying” Christian Apologists?: 19th Century “Hittites Didn’t Exist” Radical Skepticism and Examination of Atheist DagoodS’ Replies and Charges [1-15-11, at Internet Archive]

Hittite Skeptics Chronicles, Part III: Specific Citations of Denial (Budge, Sumner, & Conder) and Biblical Historical Accuracy (in the Time of Elisha) [1-19-11, at Internet Archive]

Great Hittite Wars, Part IV: Lying Christian Egyptologist M. G. Kyle?: Atheist DagoodS Disputes Sir A. E. Wallis Budge’s Reported Hittite Skepticism  [1-21-11, at Internet Archive]

“Higher” Hapless Haranguing of Hypothetical Hittites (19th C.) [10-21-11; abridged 7-7-20]

“Israelites” as a Title

Pearce’s Potshots #27: Anachronistic “Israelites”? [5-25-21]

Jesus

The Census, Jesus’ Birth in Bethlehem, & History [2-3-11]

“’Bethany Beyond the Jordan’: History, Archaeology and the Location of Jesus’ Baptism on the East Side of the Jordan” [8-11-14]

Archaeology: Jesus’ Crucifixion, Tomb, & the Via Dolorosa [9-18-14]

Reply to Atheist Jonathan MS Pearce: Herod’s Death & Alleged “Contradictions” (with Jimmy Akin) [7-25-17]

Reply to Atheist Jonathan MS Pearce: “Contradictory” Genealogies of Christ? [7-27-17]

December 25th Birth of Jesus?: Interesting Considerations [12-11-17]

Seidensticker Folly #4: Jesus Never Existed, Huh? [8-14-18]

Was Christ Actually Born Dec. 25? [National Catholic Register, 12-18-18]

The Bethlehem Nativity, Babe Ruth, and History [National Catholic Register, 1-1-19]

Are the Two Genealogies of Christ Contradictory? [National Catholic Register, 1-5-19]

Jesus’ Resurrection: Scholarly Defenses of its Historicity [4-12-20]

Jesus’ December Birth & Grazing Sheep in Bethlehem (Is a December 25th Birthdate of Jesus Impossible or Unlikely Because Sheep Can’t Take the Cold?) [12-26-20]

Pearce’s Potshots #11: 28 Defenses of Jesus’ Nativity (Featuring Confirmatory Historical Tidbits About the Magi and Herod the Great) [1-9-21]

Herod’s Slaughter of the Innocents: Myth & Fiction? [2-10-21]

Pearce’s Potshots #52: No Tomb for Jesus? (Skeptical Fairy Tales and Fables vs. the Physical Corroborating Evidence of Archaeology in Jerusalem) [11-10-21]

Pearce’s Potshots #64: Archaeology & 1st Century Nazareth [2-25-22]

Quirinius & Luke’s Census: Resources on the “Difficulty” [2-26-22]

Cana: Archaeological Comparison of “Rival” Sites [3-29-23]

What We Know About Nazareth at the Time of Jesus [National Catholic Register, 11-24-23]

Job

Book of Job, Archaeology, History, & Geography [4-1-23]

John: Historical Accuracy of

Archaeology & the Gospel of John’s Accuracy (Ch. 15 of my book, The Word Set in Stone: How Archaeology, Science, and History Back Up the Bible) [3-2-23]

Joseph (Patriarch)

“Joseph in Egypt”: available only in Chapter Five of my book, The Word Set in Stone: How Archaeology, Science, and History Back Up the Bible (Catholic Answers Press: March 15, 2023)

Joshua’s Conquest of Canaan / Era of the Judges

Pearce’s Potshots #32: No Evidence for Joshua’s Conquest? [5-28-21]

What Archaeology Tells Us About Joshua’s Conquest [National Catholic Register, 7-8-21]

Ehrman Errors #5: Hazor Battles “Contradictions”? (Including Possible Archaeological Evidence for the Battle of Deborah in Judges 4) [3-23-22]

Ehrman Errors #6: Joshua’s Conquest & Science [3-23-22]

Archaeology & Judges-Era Lead & Tin Trade [1-26-23]

“Joshua and the Conquest of Canaan” is now only available as Chapter Ten in my book, The Word Set in Stone: How Archaeology, Science, and History Back Up the Bible (Catholic Answers Press: March 15, 2023)

Samson’s Death-Scene: Archaeological Confirmation [3-27-23]

Did Samson Really Destroy the Philistine Temple With His Bare Hands? [National Catholic Register, 4-28-23]

Joshua’s Conquest: Rapid, Always Violent, & Total? [5-1-23]

Judas & the Thirty Silver Coins

Judas’ “Thirty Coins of Silver”: Archaeology & History [6-18-23]

Luke: Historical Accuracy of

“St. Luke Knows His Stuff” is only available as Chapter Fourteen of my book, The Word Set in Stone: How Archaeology, Science, and History Back Up the Bible (Catholic Answers Press: March 15, 2023).

Moabites & Ammonites

Pearce’s Potshots #42: 12th c. BC Moabite & Ammonite Kings (The Broad Definition of “King” in the Ancient Near East, + Biblical Use of  “Chiefs of Edom”) [7-19-21]

Moses and the Pentateuch

Did Moses Exist? No Absolute Proof, But Strong Evidence (Pearce’s Potshots #35, in Which Our Brave Hero Classifies Moses as “a Mythological Figure” and I Reply!) [6-14-21]

Using the Bible to Debunk the Bible Debunkers (Is the Mention of ‘Pitch’ in Exodus an Anachronism?) [National Catholic Register, 6-30-21]

Archaeology, Ancient Hebrew, & a Written Pentateuch (+ a Plausible Scenario for Moses Gaining Knowledge of Hittite Legal Treaties in His Egyptian Official Duties) [7-31-21]

In Search of the Real Mt. Sinai (Fascinating Topographical and Biblical Factors Closely Examined) [8-16-21]

The Tabernacle: Egyptian & Near Eastern Precursors (Archaeology Entirely Backs Up the Extraordinary Accuracy of Holy Scripture Yet Again) [9-8-21]

Fascinating Biblical Considerations About Mount Sinai [National Catholic Register, 11-23-22]

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Moses, Science, and Water from Rocks [Catholic365, 11-18-23]
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Archaeology Supports the Book of Nehemiah [National Catholic Register, 11-30-23]
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New Testament
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Noah’s Flood

Noah’s Ark: Josephus, Earlier Historians, & Church Fathers (Early Witnesses of the Ark Resting on Jabel [Mt.] Judi) [3-16-22]

Biblical Size of Noah’s Ark: Literal or Symbolic? [3-16-22]

Peter

Archaeology & St. Peter’s House in Capernaum [9-23-14]

Philistines

Pearce’s Potshots #33: No Philistines in Moses’ Time? [6-3-21]

Ehrman Errors #1: Philistines, Beersheba, Bible Accuracy [3-18-22]

Prophets

Prophet Elisha and Archaeology [4-4-22]

Prophet Elijah and Archaeology [4-13-22]

Is There Any Archaeological Support for the Prophet Daniel? [National Catholic Register, 4-25-22]

See “Digging Up Proofs of the Prophets”: Chapter Twelve of my book, The Word Set in Stone: How Archaeology, Science, and History Back Up the Bible (Catholic Answers Press: March 15, 2023).

Sodom and Gomorrah

Sodom & Gomorrah & Archaeology: North of the Dead Sea? [10-9-14]

Sodom Obliterated (Chapter Four from my book, The Word Set in Stone: How Archaeology, Science, and History Back up the Bible) [1-26-23]

Tower of Babel

Pearce’s Potshots #54: Tower of Babel; Who’s the “Idiot”? [11-24-21]

The Tower of Babel, Archaeology, & Linguistics [4-13-23]

Linguistic Confusion and the Tower of Babel [National Catholic Register, 6-21-22]

Tower of Babel: Dialogue with a Linguist [6-26-23]

* * *

Helpful General Articles from Others

53 People in the Bible Confirmed Archaeologically (Bible History Daily / Biblical Archeology Society, 10-13-20)

 

SCIENTIFIC ACCURACY AND THE BIBLE / SCIENTIFIC HARMONY WITH THE BIBLE

Adam and Eve (and Genetics)

Historicity of Adam and Eve [9-23-11; rev. 1-6-22]

Defending the Literal, Historical Adam of the Genesis Account (vs. Catholic Eric S. Giunta) [9-25-11]

Adam & Eve of Genesis: Historical & the Primal Human Pair [11-28-13]

Adam & Eve & Original Sin: Disproven by Science? [9-7-15]

Dialogue with Philosopher Dr. Lydia McGrew on Adam and Eve and the Polygenism vs. Monogenism Genetics Issue [Facebook, 5-11-17]

Only Ignoramuses Believe in Adam & Eve? [9-9-15]

Animals: Mythical

Loftus Atheist Error #9: Bible Espouses Mythical Animals? [9-10-19]

The Bible and Mythical Animals [National Catholic Register, 10-9-19]

Pearce Pablum #71: Dragons in the Bible? [3-4-22]

Demonic Possession

Demonic Possession or Epilepsy? (Bible & Science) [2015]

Disease / Germ Theory

Vs. Atheist David Madison #37: Bible, Science, & Germs [12-10-19]

Seidensticker Folly #36: Disease, Jesus, Paul, Miracles, & Demons [1-13-20]

The Bible on Germs, Sanitation, & Infectious Diseases [3-16-20]

Bible on Germ Theory: An Atheist Hems & Haws (. . . while I offer a serious answer to his caricature regarding the Bible and genetics) [8-31-21]

Earth: Creation of

Cosmological Argument for God (Resources) [10-23-15]

Genesis Contradictory (?) Creation Accounts & Hebrew Time: Refutation of a Clueless Atheist “Biblical Contradiction” [5-11-17]

The Genesis Creation Accounts and Hebrew Time [National Catholic Register, 7-2-17]

Earth: Sphere

Biblical Flat Earth (?) Cosmology: Dialogue w Atheist (vs. Matthew Green) [9-11-06]

Flat Earth: Biblical Teaching? (vs. Ed Babinski) [9-17-06]

Carrier Critique #3: Bible Teaches a Flat Earth? [3-31-22]

Evolution, Theory of

Catholicism and Evolution / Charles Darwin’s Religious Beliefs [8-19-09]

Dialogue with an Atheist on Evolution [9-17-15]

My Claims Regarding Piltdown Man & the Scopes Trial Twisted [10-10-15]

Scripture, Science, Genesis, & Evolutionary Theory: Mini-Dialogue with an Atheist [8-14-18; rev. 2-18-19]

Catholics & Origins: Irreducible Complexity or Theistic Evolution? [6-17-19]

Why I Believe in “Non-Miraculous” Intelligent Design [6-20-19]

Debate: Can Intelligent Design Be “Non-Interventionist”? (vs. Dr. Lydia McGrew) [6-21-19]

Exodus and Moses

Acacia, Ark of the Covenant, & Biblical Accuracy [8-24-21]

Science, Hebrews and a Bevy of Quail [National Catholic Register, 11-14-21]

“Out of Egypt with Moses,” “The Ten Plagues and their Aftermath,” and “The Red Sea, and Miracles in the Desert” are only available in Chapters Seven to Nine of my book, The Word Set in Stone: How Archaeology, Science, and History Back Up the Bible (Catholic Answers Press: March 15, 2023)

Manna: Possibly a Natural Phenomenon? [5-5-23]

Flood & Noah 

Old Earth, Flood Geology, Local Flood, & Uniformitarianism (vs. Kevin Rice) [5-25-04; rev. 5-10-17]

Adam & Eve, Cain, Abel, & Noah: Historical Figures [2-20-08]

Noah’s Flood & Catholicism: Basic Facts [8-18-15]

Do Carnivores on the Ark Disprove Christianity? [9-10-15]

New Testament Evidence for Noah’s Existence [National Catholic Register, 3-11-18]

Local Flood & Atheist Ignorance of Christian Thought [7-2-21]

Local Mesopotamian Flood: An Apologia [7-9-21]

Pearce’s Potshots #47: Mockery of a Local Flood (+ Striking Analogies Between the Biblical Flood and the Great Mississippi Flood of 1927) [9-30-21]

Pearce’s Potshots #48: Flood of Irrationality & Cowardice [10-1-21]

Noah’s Flood: Not Anthropologically Universal + Miscellany [10-5-21]

Debate: Historical Local Flood & Biblical Hyperbole [11-12-21]

Pearce Pablum #72: Flood: 25 Criticisms & Non Sequiturs [3-8-22]

Atheist Jonathan MS Pearce’s Straw Man Global Flood [8-30-22]

Garden of Eden

“Search for the Garden of Eden”: available only in Chapter One in my book, The Word Set in Stone: How Archaeology, Science, and History Back Up the Bible (Catholic Answers Press: March 15, 2023)

General

Dialogue w Atheist on Christianity & the Scientific Method [7-19-01]

God and “Natural Evil”: A Thought Experiment [2002]

Atheist Myths: “Christianity vs. Science & Reason” (vs. “drunkentune”) [1-3-07]

Richard Dawkins & “Religion vs. Science” Mentality (+ Galileo Redux) [3-20-08]

Reply to Atheist Scientist Jerry Coyne: Are Science and Religion Utterly Incompatible? [7-13-10]

Christianity: Crucial to the Origin of Science [8-1-10]

Books by Dave Armstrong: Science and Christianity: Close Partners or Mortal Enemies? [10-20-10]

Typical “Science vs. Catholicism” Criticisms (and Myths) from an Agnostic Scientist Refuted [7-29-11]

Science and Christianity (Copious Resources) [11-3-15]

Dialogue with an Agnostic on Catholicism and Science [9-12-16]

Richard Dawkins: D- Grade for Science & Christianity [5-23-18]

Seidensticker Folly #21: Atheist “Bible Science” Absurdities [9-25-18]

Seidensticker Folly #23: Atheist “Bible Science” Inanities, Pt. 2 [10-2-18]

Loftus Atheist Error #7: Christian Influence on Science [9-9-19]

The Bible is Not “Anti-Scientific,” as Skeptics Claim [National Catholic Register, 10-23-19]

Modern Science is Built on a Christian Foundation [National Catholic Register, 5-6-20]

Seidensticker Folly #44: Historic Christianity & Science [8-29-20]

OT & Archaeology: 25 Fascinating Confirmations (From Noah to Joshua”: the Hebrew Scripture is Extraordinarily Accurate & True to History) [9-21-21]

“Nature Miracles”: Natural Hypotheses for God’s Actions (For Example: Noah’s Flood, Parting of the Red Sea, Quails, Earth Swallowing up Sinners, Sodom & Gomorrah, & Water from the Rocks) [10-30-21]

Goliath

Goliath’s Height: Six Feet 9 Inches, 7 Feet 8, or 9 Feet 9? [7-4-21]

Herod Agrippa “Eaten by Worms”

Herod Agrippa I “Eaten By Worms”: Myth or Plausible? [6-20-23]

Jericho

Jericho and Archaeology — Disproof of the Bible? (Here is one possible explanation for the high level of erosion in Jericho) [National Catholic Register, 9-26-21]

Jericho: Did the Walls Collapse Due to Resonance? [5-1-23]

What Made the Walls of Jericho Fall? [National Catholic Register, 5-20-23]

Jesus

Resurrection Debate #4: No “Leafy Branches” on Palm Sunday? [4-19-21]

Resurrection (?) #10: “Blood & Water” & Medical Science [4-25-21]

Carrier Critique #2: Crucifixion Eclipse? [3-30-22]

Darkness at Jesus’ Crucifixion — Solar Eclipse or Sandstorm? [National Catholic Register, 4-15-22]

Jonah

Was Jonah in the Belly of a Whale? Yes, But . . . [3-27-23]

Did God Raise Jonah from the Dead? [National Catholic Register, 4-20-23]

Medical Science

Carrier Critique #4: Bible & Disease & Medicine (+ Medical Advances Made in the Christian-Dominated Middle Ages) [3-31-22]

Miracles and Science

The Resurrection: Hoax or History? [cartoon tract; art by Dan Grajek, 1985]

Silly Atheist Arguments vs. the Resurrection & Miracles [2002]

Biblical and Historical Evidences for Raising the Dead [9-24-07; revised for National Catholic Register, 2-8-19]

Dialogue with an Atheist on Miracles & First Premises [12-18-10]

Exchange on Miracles & Hyper-Rationalism [12-7-15]

Dialogues with Atheists on Miracles [6-8-16]

Does God Still Perform Miracles? (Some Evidence) [5-26-18]

Miracle of the Sun at Fatima: Brief Exchange [7-3-18]

Dialogue w Agnostic on Proof for Miracles (Lourdes) [9-9-18]

Miracles & Scientific Method: Dialogue with Atheist [2-22-19]

Atheist Desire for Amazing Divine Miracles / Incorruptibles [2-23-19]

David Madison vs. the Gospel of Mark #6: Chapters 5-6 (Supernatural & Miracles / Biblical Literary Genres & Figures / Perpetual Virginity / Healing & Belief / Persecution of Jesus in Nazareth) [8-18-19]

Seidensticker Folly #39: “The Sun Stood Still” (Joshua) [4-16-20]

Reflections on Joshua and “the Sun Stood Still” [National Catholic Register, 10-22-20]

Debate On Miracles Vs. An Atheist [1-6-23]

Patriarchs: Old Ages of

969-Year-Old Methuselah (?) & Genesis Numbers [7-12-21]

Souls and Spirits

Seidensticker Folly #8: Physics Has Disproven Souls? [8-16-18]

Seidensticker Folly #71: Spirit-God “Magic”; 68% Dark Energy Isn’t? [2-2-21]

Dark Energy, Dark Matter and the Light of the World [National Catholic Register, 2-17-21]

Star of Bethlehem

Star of Bethlehem, Astronomy, Wise Men, & Josephus (Amazing Astronomically Verified Data in Relation to the Journey of the Wise Men  & Jesus’ Birth & Infancy) [12-14-20]

Timeline: Star of Bethlehem, Herod’s Death, & Jesus’ Birth (Chronology of Harmonious Data from History, Archaeology, the Bible, and Astronomy) [12-15-20]

Who Were the “Wise Men,” or Magi? [National Catholic Register, 12-16-20]

Conjunctions, the Star of Bethlehem and Astronomy [National Catholic Register, 12-21-20]

Star of Bethlehem: Refuting Silly Atheist Objections [12-26-20]

Route Taken by the Magi: Educated Guess [12-28-20]

Star of Bethlehem: More Silly Atheist “Objections” [12-29-20]

Astronomy, Exegesis and the Star of Bethlehem [National Catholic Register, 12-31-20]

Pearce’s Potshots #12: Supernatural Star of Bethlehem? (Biblical View of Astronomy, Laws of Nature, and the Natural World) [1-11-21]

Star of Bethlehem: Natural or Supernatural? [1-13-21]

Bible Commentaries & Matthew 2:9 (Star of Bethlehem) [1-13-21]

Star of Bethlehem: Reply to Obnoxious Atheist Aaron Adair (Plus Further Related Exchanges with Aaron and a Few Others in an Atheist Combox) [1-14-21]

Star of Bethlehem: 2nd Reply to Arrogant Aaron Adair [1-18-21]

Star Researcher Aaron Adair: “Liar, Liar, Pants on Fire!” [1-19-21]

Star of Bethlehem & Magi: 20 Fascinating Aspects [1-22-21]

Ehrman Errors #9: Star Stopping Over a House?! [3-25-22]

Did the Star of Bethlehem Move Like Tinker Bell? (+ Discussion of Micah 5:2: The Prophecy of Jesus’ Birth in Bethlehem) [12-19-22]

Star of Bethlehem: Scientific Verification (vs. an Atheist) [12-20-22]

Was the Star of Bethlehem a Natural Celestial Event? [12-21-22]

“The Star Went Before Them” (The Word Set in Stone) (Retrograde Motion and the Phenomenological Language of the Bible) [7-24-23]

Universe, Origin of: Cosmological Argument / Big Bang

Cosmological Argument for God (Resources) [10-23-15]

Cause of the Big Bang: Atheist Geologist Challenged [4-21-17]

Seidensticker Folly #14: Something Rather Than Nothing [9-3-18]

Seidensticker Folly #38: Eternal Universe vs. an Eternal God [4-16-20]

Seidensticker Folly #42: Creation “Ex Nihilo” [8-28-20]

Creation Ex Nihilo is in the Bible [National Catholic Register, 10-1-20]

Universe, Origin of: General

Atheism: the Faith of “Atomism” [8-19-15]

Clarifications Regarding My Controversial Atheist “Reductio” Paper [8-20-15]

Exchanges with Atheists on Ultimate Origins [11-19-15]

Atheists Seem to Have Almost a Childlike Faith in the Omnipotence of Atoms [National Catholic Register, 10-16-16]

Atheists & Inherent “Omnipotent” Creative Qualities of Godless Matter [7-26-17]

Dialogue w Atheist on the Origin of the Universe [6-23-18]

Dialogue with an Atheist on “God of the Gaps” [6-24-18]

Vs. Atheist David Madison #38: Who is Insulting Intelligence? (. . . with emphasis on the vexing and complex question of the ultimate origins of matter and life) [12-11-19]

Seidensticker Folly #75: Why a Universe at All? [11-5-21]

Debate: a Universe Self-Created from Nothing? [11-9-21]

Universe, Origin of: Teleological Argument / Intelligent Design

Albert Einstein’s “Cosmic Religion”: In His Own Words [originally 2-17-03; expanded greatly on 8-26-10]

Theistic Argument from Longing or Beauty, & Einstein [3-27-08; rev. 3-14-19]

Teleological (Design) Argument for God (Resources) [10-27-15]

Dogmatic Materialist Scientists vs. Intelligent Design [10-29-15]

Seidensticker Folly #41: Argument from Design [8-25-20]

God the Designer?: Dialogue with an Atheist [8-27-20]

Universe: Sustained by God

“Quantum Entanglement” & the “Upholding” Power of God [10-20-20]

Quantum Mechanics and the “Upholding” Power of God [National Catholic Register, 11-24-20]

Books by Dave Armstrong: The Word Set in Stone: How Archaeology, Science, and History Back Up the Bible [1-24-23]

Introduction for My Book: The Word Set in Stone: How Archaeology, Science, and History Back up the Bible + Near Eastern Archaeological Periods and Timeline of the Patriarchs [1-24-23]

***

Photo credit: Kenneth A. Kitchen is the dean of biblical archaeologists in our time. His book, On the Reliability of the Old Testament, was published in 2006. [from the Amazon book page]

***

Summary: I collect hundreds of my blog posts having to do with the Bible & archaeology (scientific evidence that supports its accuracy) & also the relationship between the Bible & science, generally.

Updated on 6 January 2024

May 20, 2021

Jonathan MS Pearce is a prominent online atheist. He runs the blog called A Tippling Philosopher. I have had several dialogues with him, where he is perfectly civil. But his comboxes are a completely different story. Yesterday he put up a post where once again he called for civility in his comboxes. He wrote:

So it’s that time of the month where I am having to talk about commenting again. We have got to a situation where Bert [co-blogger on the site] is getting a little bit frustrated (and that is probably understating it a good deal), and I am even receiving a couple of unsolicited messages about it from randoms. . . . The comment threads here are active. And that is great. But they could be more productive and civil.

I would like polite and civil discourse. But I would also like high-level discourse. And this is where the tension arises. We have two problems:

1) That which is said in the first place.

2) That which is said in reply. . . .

So, what am I asking? Please please simply deal with the ideas and do no[t] attack the person. I am as guilty as the next person in this regard. Fellow skeptics – we should be convincing people to our frame of mind. If they are not ready, attacking their personality forcefully and without civility will not work in our favour.

There should be two courses of action:

  1. Robust and well-formed and evidenced argument.
  2. Ignore them.

If people are exhibiting trollish behaviour, think about what they are seeking – attention. Don’t give it to them. . . .

Anyway, over the next few months, I will be developing a new comments policy. I am going to think long and hard about how best to approach this. As with every moral scenario, it is all about the goal. What do I want? What do I want my gaff to be? What do I expect of my commenters and why?

In the meantime, let’s ALL think about the way we interact, who we are appealing to, who we think our audience is, and why we say what we say in the way we say it.

As the old Chinese proverb goes, if there is a solution, there’s no point getting angry; if there is no solution, there is no point getting angry.

Easier said than done, right? But still…

I hate to be a “wet blanket” over against a worthy cause, but I replied there:

Too little too late for someone like me, who has already become completely fed up with not just the double standards in moderation of this forum, but those of all atheist forums I have ever seen (and, to be fair, almost all Christian forums, too; this is a problem of nonexistent or inherently flawed moderation across the board).

Jonathan had said that he was happy I and other Christians were here, so it wouldn’t be an echo chamber. A few other people (amidst the general clamor, stench, and din) said that I offered a few things of substance now and then, too.

I do commend him for at least seeking a higher (albeit ethically rudimentary or elementary ) ideal, but I don’t believe it’ll ever happen in fact. Atheists simply have too much hostility towards Christians. If they aren’t allowed to express that, soon this won’t be an “echo chamber”, but rather, a ghost town.

Many Christians have had it with ubiquitous atheist verbal diarrhea. I ain’t alone, believe me. Any atheist who actually wants discussion with theists and Christians will soon have to seek it almost exclusively on our sites (I predict).

Now people can blast me as a hypocrite since I already said I had left. Go ahead. Ignore Jonathan’s advice. This is simply an exception (so don’t try to interact with me). I have been trying to have a discussion with atheists for far too long (though there were a few here who could actually sustain an amiable and rational discussion, as I have happily acknowledged), so — patience exhausted — I have now moved on to other areas of my apologetics (and there are many).

Best wishes in trying to find educated Christians (able to engage in real and substantive dialogue), who are willing to endure the ridiculous nonsense that always ensues within minutes. But I suppose you can always find masochists and contentious folks who actually enjoy ludicrous exchanges.

There are atheists who have become fed up with all the incessant mudslinging and lack of substance, too. I mentioned two of them in articles below. One who goes by the nickname “DagoodS”: a worthy opponent with whom I have had several dialogues and met in person as well, gave up on these discussions, just as I have, for the same reason. He wrote:

I still review some theistic discussions and websites, although I very, very rarely post, and even then, it quickly fades to nothing. . . .
I stopped arguing because I became bored. It was interesting for a while, and I had a huge passion for it. . . .
*
[T]he internet became a cesspool of vicious war where it was no longer sufficient to have the best argument; you MUST call the enemy (and every person who disagrees in the slightest is an enemy), every name conceivable, the worst vermin who ever lived, and the most idiotic person walking the face of the earth. It is not enough to disagree-you must destroy. . . .
*
So I have moved on from the internet. Still enjoy lurking and keeping up to date. Still read the memes and the pithy snopes-debunked quotes on Facebook or twitter. But I stay out. . . .
*
Why I have disappeared from internet Christian debates? Because I am busy pursuing other interests with my wife, my family, my friends and my life. (2-27-18)

Of course, he is talking mainly about how Christians treated him. I never denied that many Christians online act like morons and jerks (especially to atheists and leftists). That’s why I already stated above that Christian comboxes are almost as bad as atheist ones, and I rarely visit them, either. Both sides have to realize that the unethical behavior is a disgrace, and to cease doing it. Where DagoodS and I fully agree, as an atheist and a Christian apologist, is that one ought to simply be able to have normal discussions, without the rancor and (as he put it) “cesspool of vicious war.”

It didn’t happen on Jonathan’s blog. I had hoped beyond hope that it could and would. Now Jonathan’s blog partner Bert has had enough of it. I think atheists would do well to learn from my experience and now my decision to leave and cease attempting dialogue with atheists (at least for some time if not indefinitely), and also the report of a thoughtful, articulate atheist like DagoodS. I think Jonathan truly does desire good discussion to occur. But it never will without a “no tolerance for B $” moderation policy. Take it for what it’s worth . . .

“DagoodS” made the move from anti-theist atheist (always trying to prove us wrong and show how silly we supposedly are) to what might be called a “pro-active atheist.” I highly commend him for that, as far as it goes. Rather than concentrating on the negative, he is simply living (and enjoying) his life as an atheist and letting Christians live theirs.
 
I respect that. Me: I have sought to find common ground with atheists: to be ecumenical: to show that we are not anti-science and anti-reason or anti-evidence and that we have many of the same basic human goals as atheists do. It hasn’t worked (the hostility and massive misunderstandings are too great), and I am left hyper-frustrated and disgusted yet again. When idealism dies it’s an ugly and very sad thing.
*

Related Reading

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Photo credit: [Pexels.com / Pixabay / CC0 license]

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Summary: JMS Pearce is one of many atheists who have claimed that their comboxes will be civil and free of [innumerable] insults. My reply: this virtually never happens, and it won’t this time, either.

***

 

March 7, 2021

I’ve done quite a few of these. I thought it would be good, then (for reference purposes) to collect them together all in one place: alphabetically categorized by topic. If people would buy self-published books of Catholic and general Christian apologetics, I’d collect them in a book, but since they don’t (unless the book is massively advertised, which I can’t afford), I won’t.

In any event, you have my rebuttals here for your use, for free. Please prayerfully consider financially supporting my apostolate, if you have been aided by it, or want to support apologetics and evangelism, generally speaking. The laborer is worthy of his hire. I’m not getting rich over here: just working my tail off in defending the Bible, Christianity, traditional morality, and specifically, Catholicism. I’ve written 3,217 articles (and counting) and fifty books, as well as lots of published articles (242 at National Catholic Register, etc.). 2021 is my 40-year anniversary of writing Christian apologetics (the last 30 as a Catholic).

*****

“Contradictions” (Supposed): Examined More Closely

Reply to Atheists: Defining a [Biblical] “Contradiction” [1-7-11]

Debates with Atheist “DagoodS” (“Bible Difficulties”) [2006-2007, 2010-2011]

Review of The Book of Non-Contradiction (Phillip Campbell) [5-9-17]

Critique of Theologically Liberal Bible-Basher [6-6-17]

Alleged “Bible Contradictions”: Most Are Actually Not So [2002 and 6-7-17]

Atheist Inventions of Many Bogus “Bible Contradictions” [National Catholic Register, 9-4-18]

Seidensticker Folly #28: Lies About Bible “Contradictions” (1. Christians don’t sin? 2. Universalism? 3. “Tomb evangelism”. 4. Can human beings see God or not?) [10-23-18]

Bible “Contradictions” & Plausibility (Dialogue w Atheist) [12-17-18]

Seidensticker Folly #32: Sophistically Redefining “Contradiction” [4-20-19]

Seidensticker Folly #37: “What is a Contradiction?” 0101 [4-15-20]

Reply to Atheist Ward Ricker Re “Biblical Contradictions” [5-15-20]

Dialogues on “Contradictions” w Bible-Bashing Atheists [5-16-20]

Alleged Bible “Contradictions” & “Difficulties”: Master List of Christian Internet Resources for Apologists (Links) [7-19-10; links updated on 9-6-20]

Seidensticker Folly #69: “Difficulties” Aren’t Contradictions [1-4-21]

Atheists, Biblical “Contradictions” & the Plausibility Issue [2-4-21]

Refutation of Atheist Paul Carlson’s 51 Bible “Contradictions” [4-6-21]

Refutation of 194 Biblical “Contradictions” (#1-25) [4-5-22]

Refutation of 194 Biblical “Contradictions” (#26-50) [4-6-22]

Refutation of 194 Biblical “Contradictions” (#51-75) [4-7-22]

Refutation of 194 Biblical “Contradictions” (#76-100) [4-8-22]

Refutation of 194 Biblical “Contradictions” (#101-125) [4-8-22]

Refutation of 194 Biblical “Contradictions” (#126-150) [4-9-22]

Refutation of 194 Biblical “Contradictions” (#151-175) [4-11-22]

Refutation of 194 Biblical “Contradictions” (#176-194) [4-11-22]

How Do Atheists Define an Alleged “Biblical Contradiction”?: . . . And What is a So-Called “Bible Difficulty”? [1-9-23]

General Principles / Preliminaries / Premises

An Introduction to Bible Interpretation [1987]

Atheist Bible “Scholarship” & “Exegesis” [3-18-03]

Are All Bible Books Self-Evidently Inspired? [6-19-06]

Are All the Biblical Books Self-Evidently Canonical? [6-22-06]

Were Apostles Always Aware of Writing Scripture? (6-29-06; abridged on 9-25-16)

Is the Bible in Fact Clear, or “Perspicuous” to Every Individual? [2007]

How Do Catholics Approach & Interpret Holy Scripture? [6-17-09]

Catholic Interpretation of Scripture (Hermeneutics / Exegesis): Resource List (Links) [6-28-09]

The Bible & Skepticism: Irrational Double Standards & Bias [8-6-09]

Bible: Completely Self-Authenticating, So that Anyone Could Come up with the Complete Canon without Formal Church Proclamations? (vs. Wm. Whitaker) [July 2012]

The Bible: “Clear” & “Self-Interpreting”? [February 2014]

“Butcher & Hog”: On Relentless Biblical Skepticism [9-21-15]

Dialogue with an Atheist on Bible Difficulties, Plausibility Structures, & Deconversion [6-10-17]

Why We Should Fully Expect Many “Bible Difficulties” [7-17-17]

Richard Dawkins’ “Bible Whoppers” Are the “Delusion” [5-25-18]

Biblical Interpretation & Clarity: Dialogue w an Atheist [5-26-18]

Is Inspiration Immediately Evident in Every Biblical Book? [National Catholic Register, 7-28-18]

Catholic Biblical Interpretation: Myths and Truths [National Catholic Register, 12-3-18]

Bible “Difficulties” Are No Disproof of Biblical Inspiration [National Catholic Register, 6-29-19]

Seidensticker Folly #33: Clueless Re Biblical Anthropopathism [7-24-19]

“Difficulty” in Understanding the Bible: Hebrew Cultural Factors [2-5-21]

An Omniscient God and a “Clear” Bible [National Catholic Register, 2-28-21]

Dialogue: Biblical Inspiration & Bible “Contradictions” [4-13-22]

Abortion

Seidensticker Folly #62: Bible & Personhood of Fetuses [11-10-20]

Abraham

Abraham & Beersheba, the Bible, & Archaeology [6-9-21]

Ehrman Errors #1: Philistines, Beersheba, Bible Accuracy [3-18-22]

Absolution

Resurrection #28: Remission of Sins “Contradictions”? [5-5-21]

Animal Rights

Dialogue w Atheist on Jesus, Demons, Pigs, & Animal Rights [7-5-18]

Arameans and Amorites

Arameans, Amorites, and Archaeological Accuracy [6-8-21]

Bible: Cosmology of

Biblical Flat Earth (?) Cosmology: Dialogue w Atheist (vs. Matthew Green) [9-11-06]

Flat Earth: Biblical Teaching? (vs. Ed Babinski) [9-17-06]

Bodies, Spiritual

Seidensticker Folly #26: Spiritual Bodies R Still Bodies! [10-9-18]

Seidensticker Folly #52: Spiritual Bodies R Physical [9-10-20]

Camels and the Patriarchs / Archaeology

Abraham, Moses, Camels, & Archaeological Evidence [5-22-21]

OT Camels & Biblically Illiterate Archaeologists [5-24-21]

When Were Camels Domesticated in Egypt & Israel? [5-25-21]

David, King

Ward’s Whoppers #13: How Did David Kill Goliath? [5-19-20]

Disciples, Twelve

12 Disciples of Jesus: Alleged Contradictions Debunked [12-9-06]

Resurrection #26: “Twelve” or Eleven Disciples? [5-4-21]

Documentary Theory

Documentary Theory of Biblical Authorship (JEPD): Dialogue [2-12-04]

Documentary Theory (Pentateuch): Critical Articles [6-21-10]

C. S. Lewis Roundly Mocked the Documentary Hypothesis [10-6-19]

Edomites

Edomites: Archaeology Confirms the Bible (As Always) [6-10-21]

Eucharist, Holy

Madison vs. Jesus #8: Holy Eucharist as “Grotesque Magic”? [8-7-19]

Exodus

Seidensticker Folly #5: Has Archaeology Disproven the Exodus? [8-15-18]

Faith & Reason

Seidensticker Folly #66: Biblical “Evidence-Less Faith”? [12-9-20]

Faith & Works

Final Judgment & Works (Not Faith): 50 Passages [2-10-08]

Seidensticker Folly #22: Contradiction? Saved by Faith or Works? [10-1-18]

“Fools” (Calling People That)

The Biblical “Fool” & Proverbial Literary Genre: Did Paul and Peter Disobey Jesus and Risk Hellfire (Calling Folks “Fools”)? Did Jesus Contradict Himself? Or Do Proverbs and Hyperbolic Utterances Allow Exceptions? [2-5-14]

“Foreigners” / “Neighbors”

Ward’s Whoppers #9-10: Parting the Red Sea / “Foreigners” [5-18-20]

Seidensticker Folly #54: “Neighbor” in OT = Jews Only? [9-12-20]

Gadarenes / Gerasenes

Gadarenes, Gerasenes, Swine, & Atheist Skeptics (vs. Jonathan MS Pearce) [7-25-17]

Demons, Gadara, & Biblical Numbers (vs. JMS Pearce) [12-18-20]

Gerasenes, Gadarenes, Pigs and “Contradictions” [National Catholic Register, 1-29-21]

Pearce’s Potshots #62: Gadarenes & Gerasenes #3 [2-17-22]

Pearce’s Potshots #63: Lex, NT Texts, & the Next Town Over [2-18-22]

Galilee, Sea of

Ehrman Errors #7: “Other Side” of the Sea of Galilee [3-24-22]

Genesis: Abraham

Isaac and Abraham’s Agony: Dialogue with Agnostic (vs. Dr. Jan Schreurs) [June 1999]

Ward’s Whoppers #5: Isaac: Abraham’s “Only” Son? [5-18-20]

Ward’s Whoppers #7-8: “God of Abraham…” / Passover [5-18-20]

Genesis: Adam & Eve

Adam & Eve, Cain, Abel, & Noah: Historical Figures [2-20-08]

Historicity of Adam and Eve [9-23-11; rev. 1-6-22]

Defending the Historical Adam of Genesis (vs. Eric S. Giunta) [9-25-11]

Adam & Eve of Genesis: Historical & the Primal Human Pair [11-28-13]

Adam & Eve & Original Sin: Disproven by Science? [9-7-15]

Only Ignoramuses Believe in Adam & Eve? [9-9-15]

Ward’s Whoppers #4: Which Tree Fruit In Eden to Eat?  [5-17-20]

Genesis: Cain & Abel

Adam & Eve, Cain, Abel, & Noah: Historical Figures [2-20-08]

“Where Did Cain Get His Wife?” [3-7-13]

Dialogue on How Cain Found a Wife [6-22-18]

Genesis: Documentary Hypothesis and Chiasmus

Pearce’s Potshots #38: Chiasmus & “Redundancy” in Flood Stories (Also, a Summary Statement on Catholics and the Documentary Hypothesis) [7-4-21]

Pearce’s Potshots #39: Ignoring Chiastic Literary Genre in Genesis [7-5-21]

Genesis & Evolution

Scripture, Science, Genesis, & Evolutionary Theory: Mini-Dialogue with an Atheist [8-14-18; rev. 2-18-19]

Genesis & History

Modernism vs. History in Genesis & Biblical Inspiration [7-23-18]

Genesis: Noah & the Flood

Old Earth, Flood Geology, Local Flood, & Uniformitarianism (vs. Kevin Rice) [5-25-04; many defunct links removed and new ones added: 5-10-17]

Adam & Eve, Cain, Abel, & Noah: Historical Figures [2-20-08]

Noah’s Flood & Catholicism: Basic Facts [8-18-15]

Do Carnivores on the Ark Disprove Christianity? [9-10-15]

New Testament Evidence for Noah’s Existence [National Catholic Register, 3-11-18]

Seidensticker Folly #49: Noah & 2 or 7 Pairs of Animals [9-7-20]

Pearce’s Potshots #36: Noah’s Flood: 40 or 150 Days or Neither? [7-1-21]

Pearce’s Potshots #37: Length of Noah’s Flood Redux [7-2-21]

Local Flood & Atheist Ignorance of Christian Thought [7-2-21]

Local Mesopotamian Flood: An Apologia [7-9-21]

Genesis: Serpent

Exchange w Biblical Skeptic on the Genesis Serpent [6-1-17]

Orthodox Interpretation of Genesis and the Serpent [National Catholic Register, 11-19-18]

Genesis & Time

Genesis Contradictory (?) Creation Accounts & Hebrew Time: Refutation of a Clueless Atheist “Biblical Contradiction” [5-11-17]

The Genesis Creation Accounts and Hebrew Time [National Catholic Register, 7-2-17]

God: Anthropopathism

Anthropopathism and Anthropomorphism: Biblical Data (God Condescending to Human Limitations of Understanding) [1-20-09]

Seidensticker Folly #33: Clueless Re Biblical Anthropopathism [7-24-19]

God: Bloodthirsty?

Jesus’ Death: Proof of a “Bloodthirsty” God, or Loving Sacrifice? (primarily written to and for atheists) [7-21-10]

God: Creator

Seidensticker Folly #14: Something Rather Than Nothing [9-3-18]

Ward’s Whoppers #1-3: Genesis 1 vs. 2 (Creation) [5-17-20]

Seidensticker Folly #41: Argument from Design [8-25-20]

Seidensticker Folly #42: Creation “Ex Nihilo” [8-28-20]

“Quantum Entanglement” & the “Upholding” Power of God [10-20-20]

Quantum Mechanics and the “Upholding” Power of God [National Catholic Register, 11-24-20]

God: Eternal & Uncreated

Seidensticker Folly #38: Eternal Universe vs. an Eternal God [4-16-20]

God & Evil

Problem of Evil: Treatise on the Most Serious Objection (Is God Malevolent, Weak, or Non-Existent Because of the Existence of Evil and Suffering?) [2002]

God and “Natural Evil”: A Thought Experiment [2002]

Replies to the Problem of Evil as Set Forth by Atheists [10-10-06]

“Logical” Problem of Evil: Alvin Plantinga’s Decisive Refutation [10-12-06]

“Strong” Logical Argument from Evil Against God: RIP? [11-26-06]

Is God the Author of Evil? (vs. John Calvin) [Oct. 2012]

Why Did a Perfect God Create an Imperfect World? [8-18-15]

Atheists, Miracles, & the Problem of Evil: Contradictions [8-15-18]

Alvin Plantinga: Reply to the Evidential Problem of Evil [9-13-19]

God: “Evolves” in the OT?

Seidensticker Folly #20: An Evolving God in the OT? [9-18-18]

God: Existence of

Seidensticker Folly #13: God Hasta Prove He Exists! [8-29-18]

God & Free Will

Seidensticker Folly #3: Falsehoods About God & Free Will [8-14-18]

God & “Hard Hearts”

Reply to a Calvinist: Hardening of Pharaoh’s Heart (vs. Colin Smith) [10-14-06]

God “Hardening Hearts”: How Do We Interpret That? [12-18-08]

God: Immutability

Is God in Time? [11-30-06]

Critique of Atheist John Loftus Regarding a Timeless God . . . And of Course, “Jittery John” Again Explodes [11-30-06]

Seidensticker Folly #34: Does God “Regret” or “Repent”? [7-25-19]

God: Judgment

Judgment of Nations: Biblical Commentary and Reflections [9-21-01]

God’s Judgment of Humans (Sometimes, Entire Nations) [2-16-07]

“How Can God Order the Massacre of Innocents?” (Amalekites, etc.) [11-10-07]

God’s “Punishing” of Descendants: Unjust? [7-8-10]

Final Judgment is Not a Matter of “Faith Alone” At All [National Catholic Register, 10-7-16]

Does God Ever Judge People by Sending Disease? [10-30-17]

Is God an Unjust Judge? Dialogue with an Atheist [10-30-17]

God’s Judgment of Sin: Analogies for an Atheist Inquirer [9-6-18]

Seidensticker Folly #17: “to the third and fourth generations”? [9-11-18]

Does God Punish to the Fourth Generation? [National Catholic Register, 10-1-18]

Madison vs. Jesus #9: Clueless Re Rebellion & Judgment [8-7-19]

“Why Did God Kill 70,000 Israelites for David’s Sin?” [4-13-20]

God & Lying

Seidensticker Folly #35: Is God an Inveterate Liar? [7-25-19]

God & Murder

Did God Command Jephthah to Burn His Daughter? [6-8-09]

Seidensticker Folly #12: God Likes Child Sacrifice? Huh?! [8-21-18]

Did God Immorally “Murder” King David’s Innocent Child? (God’s Providence and Permissive Will, and Hebrew Non-Literal Anthropomorphism) [5-6-19]

Loftus Atheist Error #6: Is God “Love” or a “Moral Monster”? [9-9-19]

Does God Cause Miscarriages?: A Farcical Exchange [8-23-20]

God: Name of

Ward’s Whoppers #6: Meaning of “Knowing” God’s Name [5-18-20]

God: Narcissist?

Madison vs. Jesus #6: Narcissistic, Love-Starved God? [8-6-19]

If God Needs Nothing, Why Does He Ask For So Much? (Is God “Narcissistic” or “Love-Starved?) [National Catholic Register, 8-22-19]

God: Omnipresence

God in Heaven & in His Temple: Contradiction? (vs. Dr. Steven DiMattei) [11-23-20]

God in Heaven and in His Temple: Biblical Difficulty? [National Catholic Register, 12-10-20]

God: Omniscience

Ward’s Whoppers #15-16: God & Omniscience / Worship [5-20-20]

God & Rape

Seidensticker Folly #6: God Has “No Problem with Rape”? [8-15-18]

God & Repentance

Madison vs. Jesus #7: God Prohibits Some Folks’ Repentance? [8-6-19]

Does God Ever Actively Prevent Repentance? [National Catholic Register, 9-1-19]

God & Sin

Does God “Want” Men to Sin? Does He “Ordain” Sin? [2-17-10 and 3-16-17]

God: a Spirit

Loftus Atheist Error #8: Ancient Jews, “Body” of God, & Polytheism [9-10-19]

Seidensticker Folly #71: Spirit-God “Magic”; 68% Dark Energy Isn’t? [2-2-21]

Dark Energy, Dark Matter and the Light of the World [National Catholic Register, 2-17-21]

God: Trinity

50 Biblical Evidences for the Holy Trinity [National Catholic Register, 11-14-16]

Seidensticker Folly #9: Trinity Unclear in the Bible? [8-17-18]

Seidensticker Folly #40: Craig, Trinity Definition, & Analogies [4-17-20]

God, Worship, & Praise

Why Do We Worship God? Dialogue with an Atheist [5-11-18]

Ward’s Whoppers #15-16: God & Omniscience / Worship [5-20-20]

Seidensticker Folly #47: Does God Need Praise? [8-31-20]

Seidensticker Folly #51: God and Praise, Part II [9-8-20]

Does God Have Any Need of Praise? [National Catholic Register, 9-24-20]

Golden Calf

Golden Calf & Cherubim: Biblical Contradiction? (vs. Dr. Steven DiMattei) [11-23-20]

Goliath

Goliath’s Height: Six Feet 9 Inches, 7 Feet 8, or 9 Feet 9? [7-4-21]

Hell

Dialogue w Atheists on Hell & Whether God is Just [12-5-06]

Herod the Great

Reply to Atheist Jonathan MS Pearce: Herod’s Death & Alleged “Contradictions” (with Jimmy Akin) [7-25-17]

Hittites

“Higher” Hapless Haranguing of Hypothetical Hittites (19th C.) [10-21-11; abridged 7-7-20]

Homer and the Gospels

Pearce’s Potshots #49: Homer & the Gospels (Mythmaking Scholar Suggests the Story of Priam in the Iliad as the Model for a Fictional Joseph of Arimathea) [10-15-21]

Pearce’s Potshots #50: Obsession w NT Imitation (?) of Homer (Once Again, Archaeology and Legitimate Historiography [i.e., Known Historical Facts] Refute These Ridiculous Claims [10-18-21]

Immigration Issues

Immigration & the Bible (w John Cavanaugh-O’Keefe) (see also the longer Facebook version) [9-18-17]

Do Jesus and the Bible Advocate Open Borders? [9-18-17; expanded on 6-21-18]

Borders and the Bible [National Catholic Register, 1-14-19]

“Israelites”

Pearce’s Potshots #27: Anachronistic “Israelites”? [5-25-21]

Jairus’ Daughter

Pearce’s Potshots #44: Jairus’ Daughter “Contradiction”? [8-17-21]

Jeremiah

Loftus Atheist Error #10: Prophet Jeremiah vs. Mosaic Law? [9-11-19]

Jesus & “Anxiety”

Jesus’ Agony in Gethsemane: Was it “Anxiety”? [National Catholic Register, 10-29-19]

Jesus: Ascension

Seidensticker Folly #15: Jesus’ Ascension: One or 40 Days? [9-10-18]

Jesus: Bethlehem (and Nazareth)

Reply to Atheist Jonathan MS Pearce: Bethlehem & Nazareth “Contradictions” (Including Extensive Exegetical Analysis of Micah 5:2) [7-28-17]

Pearce’s Potshots #65: Who First Visited Baby Jesus? [2-26-22]

Jesus: Burial of

Resurrection #12: Who Buried Jesus? [4-26-21]

Jesus: Census

The Census, Jesus’ Birth in Bethlehem, & History [2-3-11]

Quirinius & Luke’s Census: Resources on the “Difficulty” [2-26-22]

Pearce’s Potshots #66: Bethlehem Joseph / Census Issues [2-28-22]

Jesus: Children of?

Did Jesus Have Children? (“Offspring”: Isaiah 53:10) [5-30-06]

Jesus: Christmas

Vs. Atheist David Madison #36: Matthew & Christmas [12-10-19]

Jesus: Disciples’ Forsaking of

Resurrection (?) #8: Disciples Forsaking Jesus [4-23-21]

Jesus: Divinity of

Was Jesus Confused About His Mission? [9-8-15]

Jesus Had to Learn That He Was God? [12-15-15]

50 Biblical Proofs That Jesus is God [National Catholic Register, 2-12-17]

Seidensticker Folly #55: Godhood of Jesus in the Synoptics [9-12-20]

Ehrman Errors #8: Jesus: Synoptics vs. John? (Jesus “Scarcely” Talks About Himself in the Synoptics? No Parables At All in John?) [3-24-22]

Jesus: Existence of

Seidensticker Folly #4: Jesus Never Existed, Huh? [8-14-18]

Jesus & Families: Leaving of

Dr. David Madison vs. Jesus #1: Hating One’s Family? [8-1-19]

Madison vs. Jesus #4: Jesus Causes a Bad Marriage? [8-5-19]

Madison vs. Jesus #5: Cultlike Forsaking of Family? [8-5-19]

Did Jesus Teach His Disciples to Hate Their Families? [National Catholic Register, 8-17-19]

Seidensticker Folly #50: Mary Thought Jesus Was Crazy? (And Does the Gospel of Mark Radically Differ from the Other Gospels in the “Family vs. Following Jesus” Aspect?) [9-8-20]

Jesus: Genealogies

Reply to Atheist Jonathan MS Pearce: “Contradictory” Genealogies of Christ? [7-27-17]

Are the Two Genealogies of Christ Contradictory? [National Catholic Register, 1-5-19]

Jesus: Great Commission

Seidensticker Folly #30: Small vs. Great Commission? [10-26-18]

Jesus & Jewish Burial Customs

Seidensticker Folly #31: Jesus’ Burial Spices Contradiction? [4-20-19]

Madison vs. Jesus #12: Discipleship & Jewish Burial Customs [8-8-19]

Jesus & Jews & Gentiles

David Madison vs. the Gospel of Mark #7: Ch. 7 (Gentiles) [8-19-19]

Vs. Atheist David Madison #39: Jesus the Xenophobic Bigot? (And did Jesus minister exclusively to Jews and not Gentiles at all: an alleged Gospel inconsistency)? [12-12-19]

Did Jesus Minister Exclusively to Jews and not Gentiles? [7-2-20]

Did Jesus Heal and Preach to Only Jews? No! [National Catholic Register, 7-19-20]

Jesus: Last Words on the Cross

Jesus’ Last Words: Biblical “Contradictions”? [4-8-21]

Jesus: “Many NT Jesuses”?

Seidensticker Folly #56: Many Jesuses in the New Testament? [9-13-20]

Jesus: “Mean”?

David Madison vs. the Gospel of Mark #8: Ch. 9 (“Mean” Jesus) [8-19-19]

Jesus: Messianic Prophecies of the OT

Isaiah 53: Ancient & Medieval Jewish Messianic Interpretation [1982; revised 9-14-01]

Psalm 110: Examples of Jewish Commentators Who Regard it as Messianic / Reply to Rabbi Tovia Singer’s Charges of Christian “Tampering” with the Text [9-14-01]

Isaiah 53: Jewish-Christian Dialogue: Is the “Servant” the Messiah (Jesus) or Collective Israel? (vs. Ari G. [Orthodox] ) [9-14-01, with incorporation of much research from 1982]

Reply to Atheist on “Fabricated” OT Messianic Prophecies (ProfMTH”‘s Video Jesus Was Not the Messiah – Pt. I) [7-1-10]

Reply to Atheist on Isaiah 53 & “Dishonest” Christians [7-2-10]

Reply to Atheist on Messianic Prophecies (Zech 13:6, Ps 22) [7-3-10]

Reply to Atheist Jonathan MS Pearce: “Mistranslation” of “Virgin”? (Isaiah 7:14) (with Glenn Miller) [7-26-17]

Dual Fulfillment of Prophecy & the Virgin Birth (vs. JMS Pearce) [12-18-20]

Jesus & Money

Vs. Atheist David Madison #42: Jesus vs. Financial Responsibility? [12-19-19]

Jesus: Mustard Seed

Seidensticker Folly #25: Jesus’ Alleged Mustard Seed Error [10-8-18]

Jesus: Nativity

Pearce’s Potshots #11: 28 Defenses of Jesus’ Nativity (Featuring Confirmatory Historical Tidbits About the Magi and Herod the Great) [1-9-21]

Pearce Pablum #69: Straw-Man, Mythical “Nativity” [3-2-22]

Pearce Pablum #70: Nativity Book Errors [3-4-22]

Jesus the “Nazarene”

Jesus the “Nazarene”: Did Matthew Make Up a “Prophecy”? (Reply to Jonathan M. S. Pearce from the Blog, A Tippling Philosopher / Oral Traditions and Possible Lost Old Testament Books Referred to in the Bible) [12-17-20]

Jesus the “Nazarene” Redux (vs. Jonathan M. S. Pearce) [12-19-20]

Jesus: Palm Sunday: Olive and Palm Branches

Resurrection Debate #4: No “Leafy Branches” on Palm Sunday? [4-19-21]

Jesus: Parables

David Madison vs. the Gospel of Mark #5: Chapter 4 (Parables) [8-16-19]

Jesus: Passion and Trial of

David Madison: Synoptics vs. John Re Jesus’ Will & Passion? [8-22-19]

Who Seized Jesus & Struck Him During His Trial? (vs. Bob Seidensticker) [2-15-23]

Jesus: “Prince of Peace”

Madison vs. Jesus #11: He’s Not the Prince of Peace? [8-8-19]

Jesus: Resurrection

The Resurrection: Hoax or History? [cartoon tract with art by Dan Grajek: 1985]

“Three Days and Nights” in the Tomb: Contradiction? [10-31-06]

Dialogue w Atheist on Post-Resurrection “Contradictions” [1-26-11]

Seidensticker Folly #18: Resurrection “Contradictions”? [9-17-18]

Seidensticker Folly #57: Male Witnesses of the Dead Jesus [9-14-20]

Pearce’s Potshots #13: Resurrection “Contradictions” (?) [2-2-21]

Pearce’s Potshots #14: Resurrection “Contradictions” #2 [2-4-21]

Refuting 59 of Michael Alter’s Resurrection “Contradictions” [3-12-21]

12 Alleged Resurrection “Contradictions” That Aren’t Really Contradictions [National Catholic Register, 4-7-21]

Resurrection (?) #6: “Three Days and Three Nights” [4-21-21]

Resurrection #15: Luke & Jesus’ Galilee Appearances [4-28-21]

Resurrection #17: Women Who Saw the Risen Jesus [4-29-21]

Resurrection #18: “Touch Me Not” & Mary Magdalene [4-29-21]

11 More Resurrection “Contradictions” That Aren’t Really Contradictions [National Catholic Register, 5-8-21]

Seidensticker Folly #76: Resurrection Eyewitnesses [12-7-21]

Pearce’s Potshots #56: Paul & Jesus’ Resurrection [12-10-21]

Dan Barker’s Easter Challenge (Chronology of Accounts) [3-18-23]

See also:

How the Resurrection Narratives Fit Together (Jimmy Akin, 1-23-17)

Jesus: Second Coming

Dr. David Madison vs. Jesus #3: Nature & Time of 2nd Coming [8-3-19]

Seidensticker Folly #58: Jesus Erred on Time of 2nd Coming? (with David Palm) [10-7-20]

Jesus: Sermon on the Mount

Atheist “Refutes” Sermon on the Mount (Or Does He?) [National Catholic Register, 7-23-17]

Jesus: Thieves Crucified With Him

Resurrection (?) #7: Crucified Thieves Taunting Jesus [4-21-21]

Jesus: “Turning the Other Cheek”

Jesus Didn’t Always Turn the Other Cheek (Proverbs) [7-6-19]

What Does “Turn the Other Cheek” Mean? [National Catholic Register, 7-20-19]

Jesus and Unbelief

Resurrection #27: Jesus’ View of Unbelief & Evidence [5-5-21]

Jesus and the Women at the Crucifixion

Resurrection (?) #9: The Women at the Crucifixion [4-23-21]

Job

Ward’s Whoppers #14: Who Caused Job’s Suffering? [5-20-20]

Who Caused Job to Suffer — God or Satan? [National Catholic Register, 6-28-20]

John, Gospel of (Author)

Pearce’s Potshots #46: Who Wrote the Gospel of John? [9-2-21]

John the Baptist

Dialogue w Agnostic on Elijah and John the Baptist [9-24-06]

Seidensticker Folly #27: Confusion Re John the Baptist [10-9-18]

Jonah

Catholics and the Historicity of Jonah the Prophet [6-27-08]

Joseph (Patriarch)

Pearce’s Potshots #28: Pharaoh Didn’t Know Joseph?! [5-26-21]

Genesis, Joseph, Archaeology, & Biblical Accuracy (+ A Brief Survey of Evidence for “The King’s Highway” in Jordan in the Bronze Age: Prior to 1000 BC) [6-8-21]

Joseph of Arimathea

Dialogue w Atheist: Joseph of Arimathea “Contradictions” (??) (Lousy Atheist Exegesis Example #5672) [1-7-11]

Resurrection #11: “All the Council” / Joseph of Arimathea? [4-25-21]

Pearce’s Potshots #49: Homer & the Gospels (Mythmaking Scholar Suggests the Story of Priam in the Iliad as the Model for a Fictional Joseph of Arimathea) [10-15-21]

Pearce’s Potshots #50: Obsession w NT Imitation (?) of Homer (Once Again, Archaeology and Legitimate Historiography [i.e., Known Historical Facts] Refute These Ridiculous Claims [10-18-21]

Joshua & the Sun

Seidensticker Folly #39: “The Sun Stood Still” (Joshua) [4-16-20]

Joshua’s Conquest

Ehrman Errors #5: Hazor Battles “Contradictions”? (Including Possible Archaeological Evidence for the Battle of Deborah in Judges 4) [3-23-22]

Judas

Death of Judas: Alleged Bible Contradictions Debunked (vs. Dave Van Allen and Dr. Jim Arvo) [9-27-07]

Resurrection #19: When Was Judas Paid? [4-30-21]

Resurrection #20: Motivation of Judas’ Betrayal [4-30-21]

Resurrection #21: Chronology of Judas’ Evil Plans [5-1-21]

Resurrection #22: Did Judas Repent Or Not? [5-2-21]

Resurrection #23: How Did Judas Die? [5-3-21]

Resurrection #24: Judas & the Potter’s Field [5-3-21]

Last Things (Eschatology)

Debate with an Agnostic on the Meaning of “Last Days” and Whether the Author of Hebrews Was a False Prophet [9-13-06]

Biblical Annihilationism or Universalism? (w Atheist Ted Drange) [9-30-06]

“The Last Days”: Meaning in Hebrew, Biblical Thought [12-5-08]

Love of Enemies

“Love Your Enemies”: Old Testament Teaching Too? [9-7-20]

Luke: Historical Reliability 

Gospel of Luke Bashing Examined & Found Wanting (vs. Vexen Crabtree) [2-12-21]

Ehrman Errors #11: Luke the Unreliable Historian? (Debunking Yet More of the Endless Pseudo-“Contradictions” Supposedly All Over the Bible) [3-28-22]

Lust

Vs. Atheist David Madison #40: Jesus: All Sexual Desire is Lust? (Replies to some of the most clueless atheist “arguments” to ever enter the mind of a sentient human being . . .) [12-18-19]

Mark: Gospel of

Dr. David Madison vs. Jesus #2: Weird & Fictional Mark 16? [8-3-19]

Madison vs. the Gospel of Mark #1: Intro. & Overview (Gospels as “Con Job”? / Parables & Repentance / Old Testament Sacrifices & Jesus / “Weird” Mark 16 / Why Jesus Was Killed) [8-13-19]

David Madison vs. the Gospel of Mark #2: Chapter 1 (Why Did Mark Omit Jesus’ Baptism? / Why Was Jesus Baptized? / “Suffering Servant” & Messiah in Isaiah / Spiritual “Kingdom of God” / Archaeological Support) [8-14-19]

David Madison vs. the Gospel of Mark #3: Chapter 2 (Archaeological Support / Sin, Illness, Healing, & Faith / “Word” & “Gospel”) [8-15-19]

David Madison vs. the Gospel of Mark #4: Chapter 3 (Unforgivable Sin [Blaspheming the Holy Spirit] / Plots to Kill Jesus / Rude Jesus? [“Who is My Mother?”]) [8-16-19]

David Madison vs. the Gospel of Mark #6: Chapters 5-6 (Supernatural & Miracles / Biblical Literary Genres & Figures / Perpetual Virginity / Healing & Belief / Persecution of Jesus in Nazareth) [8-18-19]

David Madison vs. the Gospel of Mark #9: Chapter 10 (Christian Biblical Ignorance / Jesus vs. Marriage & Family? / Divinity of Jesus) [8-20-19]

David Madison vs. the Gospel of Mark #10: Chapter 11 (Two Donkeys? / Fig Tree / Moneychangers) [8-20-19]

David Madison vs. the Gospel of Mark #11: Chapter 12 (Jesus Predicts His Passion & Death / Judgment Day / God’s Mercy / God as Cosmic Narcissist?) [8-21-19]

Pearce’s Potshots #15: Gospel of Matthew vs. Gospel of Mark? [2-7-21]

Groundless Gospel of Mark Bashing Systematically Refuted (vs. Vexen Crabtree) [2-9-21]

Mary & Jesus

“Who is My Mother?”: Beginning of “Familial Church” [8-26-19]

Did Jesus Deny That Mary Was “Blessed” (Lk 11:27-28)? [11-19-19]

Did Jesus Denigrate Calling Mary “Blessed?” [National Catholic Register, 12-24-19]

“Who is My Mother?” — Jesus and the “Familial Church” [National Catholic Register, 1-21-20]

Seidensticker Folly #50: Mary Thought Jesus Was Crazy? (And Does the Gospel of Mark Radically Differ from the Other Gospels in the “Family vs. Following Jesus” Aspect?) [9-8-20]

Mary: Sinless

“All Have Sinned” vs. a Sinless, Immaculate Mary? [1996; revised and posted at National Catholic Register on 12-11-17]

Jason Engwer and a Supposedly Sinful Mary (Doubting Jesus’ Sanity? / Inconsiderate (?) Young Jesus in the Temple / “Woman” and the Wedding at Cana) [11-16-20]

Matthew: Gospel of

Seidensticker Folly #53: Matthew Cited the Wrong Prophet? [9-11-20]

Pearce’s Potshots #15: Gospel of Matthew vs. Gospel of Mark? [2-7-21]

Gospel of Matthew Bashing Refuted Point-by-Point (vs. Vexen Crabtree) [2-10-21]

Moses

Did Moses (and God) Sin In Judging the Midianites (Numbers 31)? [5-21-08]

Righteous and Sinful Anger in Moses: Smashing the Tablets and the Rock at Meribah [5-22-08]

Ward’s Whoppers #9-10: Parting the Red Sea / “Foreigners” [5-18-20]

Moses & Aaron & Their Staff(s): Biblical Contradictions? (vs. Dr. Steven DiMattei) [11-21-20]

A Bible Puzzle About the Staff of Moses and Aaron [National Catholic Register, 1-14-21]

Pearce’s Potshots #29: No Pitch / Bitumen in Moses’ Egypt? [5-26-21]

Moses, Kadesh, Negev, Bronze Age, & Archaeology [6-10-21]

Pearce’s Potshots #34: Atheist Throws a Screwball Pitch (Part II of “Pitch / Bitumen in Moses’ Egypt”) [6-12-21]

Did Moses Exist? No Absolute Proof, But Strong Evidence (Pearce’s Potshots #35, in Which Our Brave Hero Classifies Moses as “a Mythological Figure” and I Reply!) [6-14-21]

New Testament: Citation of the Old Testament

Old Testament Citations in the NT Defended (Jn 7:38) [7-4-10]

Pacifism

Pacifism vs. “Just War”: Biblical and Social Factors [April 1987]

Passover

Ward’s Whoppers #7-8: “God of Abraham…” / Passover [5-18-20]

Paul & Atheism

St. Paul: Two-Faced Re Unbelief? (Romans 1 “vs.” Epistles) [7-5-10]

Paul: Knowledge of Jesus

Seidensticker Folly #24: Paul’s Massive Ignorance of Jesus (?) [10-5-18]

Ehrman Errors #4: Paul’s “Neglect” of the Life of Jesus [3-22-22]

Paul & Lying

Pearce’s Potshots #16: Does St. Paul Justify Lying? [2-12-21]

Paul: “Pluralist”?

St. Paul: Orthodox Catholic or Theological Pluralist? [12-28-18]

Paul & Romans

David Madison vs. Paul and Romans #1: Chapter 1 (Virgin Birth / God in Creation / Human Rebelliousness / Paul’s Loving Tolerance / God’s Forgiveness / Paul on Sex & Marriage / God’s Just Judgment) [8-22-19]

David Madison vs. Paul and Romans #2: Chapter 2 (God’s Fair Judgment / Soteriology / God Knowing Our Thoughts / Chosen People) [8-26-19]

David Madison vs. Paul and Romans #3: Chapter 3 (Pauline / Biblical Soteriology: Faith and Works, Grace and Merit / Hyperbole [“No one is good”]) [8-27-19]

David Madison vs. Paul and Romans #4: Chapter 4 (Development: Law & Grace & Faith / Circumcision & Abortion / Eternal Salvation & Damnation in the Old Testament) [8-27-19]

David Madison vs. Paul and Romans #5: Chapter 5 (Conversion & Apostolic Credentials / Pre-Pauline Evangelism / “Rogue Apostle”? / Falsely Alleged Fears / Universal Atonement / Foolishness of the Cross / Unspiritual Persons) [8-28-19]

David Madison vs. Paul and Romans #6: Chapter 6 (Baptismal Regeneration / Is Paul a Killjoy? / Paul & the Last Days) [8-28-19]

David Madison vs. Paul and Romans #7: Chapter 7 (Stock Atheist Insults / Flesh vs. Spirit / Did Paul Wallow in “Personal Torment”?) [8-29-19]

David Madison vs. Paul and Romans #8: Chapter 8 (Meaning of “Flesh” / Original Sin & Man’s Rebellion / Paul’s Triumphant Solution / Paul & Greek Culture) [8-29-19]

David Madison vs. Paul and Romans #9: Chapter 9 (“Hardening Hearts” and Hebrew “Block Logic”) [8-30-19]

David Madison vs. Paul and Romans #10: Chapter 10 (“Circumcision of the Heart” & the Law / “Being Saved” in Ancient Jewish Scripture) [8-30-19]

David Madison vs. Paul and Romans #11: Chapter 11 (“Scary” & “Vindictive” Yahweh? / Endless Stupefied Insults of God / Judgment Explained Yet Again) [8-30-19]

Peter: Denials of

Seidensticker Folly #48: Peter’s Denials & Accusers [8-31-20]

Philistines

Pearce’s Potshots #33: No Philistines in Moses’ Time? [6-3-21]

Ehrman Errors #1: Philistines, Beersheba, Bible Accuracy [3-18-22]

Polytheism & the Bible

Seidensticker Folly #19: Torah & OT Teach Polytheism? [9-18-18]

Loftus Atheist Error #8: Ancient Jews, “Body” of God, & Polytheism [9-10-19]

Do the OT & NT Teach Polytheism or Henotheism? [7-1-20]

The Bible Teaches That Other “Gods” are Imaginary [National Catholic Register, 7-10-20]

Seidensticker Folly #70: Biblical “Henotheism” [?] Redux [1-31-21]

Prayer

Seidensticker Folly #7: No Conditional Prayer in Scripture? [8-16-18]

Should We Pray for All People or Not (1 John 5:16)? [9-5-18]

Biblical Prayer is Conditional, Not Solely Based on Faith [National Catholic Register, 10-9-18]

We Can’t Demand That God Directly Communicate to Us or Answer Prayer Exactly as We Want Him to (and God’s non-answer is no reason to leave the faith) [blog combox, 2-23-19]

Madison vs. Jesus #10: Universal Answered Prayer & Healing? [8-7-19]

Proverbs

Ward’s Whoppers #17-21: Proverbs Allow of Exceptions [5-21-20]

Salvation

Seidensticker Folly #29: Repentance: Part of Salvation [10-26-18]

Seidensticker Folly #64: A Saved Dahmer & Damned Anne Frank? [11-24-20]

Ehrman Errors #3: Jesus vs. Paul on Salvation? [3-22-22]

Science & the Bible / The Universe

Seidensticker Folly #21: Atheist “Bible Science” Absurdities [9-25-18]

Seidensticker Folly #23: Atheist “Bible Science” Inanities, Pt. 2 [10-2-18]

Loftus Atheist Error #9: Bible Espouses Mythical Animals? [9-10-19]

The Bible and Mythical Animals [National Catholic Register, 10-9-19]

The Bible is Not “Anti-Scientific,” as Skeptics Claim [National Catholic Register, 10-23-19]

Vs. Atheist David Madison #37: Bible, Science, & Germs [12-10-19]

Vs. Atheist David Madison #38: Who is Insulting Intelligence? (. . . with emphasis on the vexing and complex question of the ultimate origins of matter and life) [12-11-19]

Seidensticker Folly #36: Disease, Jesus, Paul, Miracles, & Demons [1-13-20]

Sea of Galilee

Bashing Mark on Geography / “Sea” of Galilee [3-30-22]

Slavery & the Bible

Biblical Inspiration & Cultural Influences: Contradictory? (emphasis on slavery) [8-10-18]

Seidensticker Folly #10: Slavery in the Old Testament [8-20-18]

Seidensticker Folly #11: Slavery & the New Testament [8-20-18]

Souls

Seidensticker Folly #8: Physics Has Disproven Souls? [8-16-18]

Ten Commandments

Seidensticker Folly #16: Two Sets of Ten Commandments? [9-10-18]

Ward’s Whoppers #11-12: Ten Commandments Issues [5-19-20]

Pearce Pablum #68: “Thou Shalt Not Kill” [Murder] [3-2-22]

Tomb of Jesus

Resurrection #14: When Was the Stone Rolled Away? [4-27-21]

Resurrection #16: Peter & John at the Empty Tomb [4-28-21]

Women

Dialogue: Sexist, Misogynist Bible and Christianity? (Debate with Five Atheists. Are Christian Women Abused as “Sheep”?) [9-20-10; abridged a bit on 2-12-20]

“Zombies” (Matthew 27:51-53)

Seidensticker Folly #45: “Zombies” & Clueless Atheists (Atheist Neil Carter Joins in on the Silliness and Tomfoolery as Well) [8-29-20]

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Photo credit: geralt (8-18-16) [PixabayPixabay License]

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Summary: I’ve done quite a few rebuttals of falsely alleged biblical “contradictions”, so I thought it would be good (for reference purposes) to collect them all together in one place, categorized by topic.

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Last updated on 18 March 2023

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February 13, 2021

I recently observed:

Our beloved atheist critics are constantly informing us lowly, ignorant Christians that atheism itself is, alas, not a formulated position, but only the absence of a position (belief in God). It’s not a worldview, etc. I wish I had a dime for every time I’ve heard that. It’s not true, but we hear it all the time. (2-2-21)

Lo and behold, on the very next day, Dr. Richard C. Miller, put up on the notorious Debunking Christianity website (which just banned me again for merely noting that I had refuted one of the big shots there: Dr. David Madison, 44 times, with no reply back) the article, The “Atheist” Misnomer. We shall examine his arguments. His words will be in blue.

Atheist. Let us problematize the term just for a moment, shall we? In classical Greek etymology, the alpha prefix denoted sheer negation, precisely equivalent to the Latin “non.” “Theos,” of course, meant “deity” or “god,” and the Greek suffix “-ismos” became applied in Latin and, as such, pulled up into early English, conveying “adherence toward” or “belief in.” So, an atheist is one who is not a theist, that is, one who does not hold a belief in the existence of any deity.

No one doubts that that is the literal meaning of the word. It doesn’t follow, however, that the atheist believes nothing in a positive sense, or that he or she possesses no worldview or sets of beliefs. They certainly do (as virtually all sentient human beings do, whether they acknowledge it or not). Someone wisely said: “the most dangerous philosophy is the unacknowledged one.”

We often find in the false rhetoric of Christian apologists and of Christian pseudo-intellectuals the claim that atheism is itself a belief.

Technically, “non-belief in God” is not a belief, but a rejection of another; I (and we) agree. However (and it’s a huge “however”), atheists do highly tend to hold to certain beliefs, whether they will acknowledge them or not. And these beliefs do in fact add up to a particular worldview held by the vast majority of atheists. Briefly put, most of them are philosophical materialists, empiricists, positivists, methodological naturalists, enraptured with science as supposedly the sole valid epistemology: making it essentially their religion (“scientism”): all of which are objectively identifiable positions, that can be discussed and either embraced or dismissed.

So it’s not so much that we are saying that there is an “atheist worldview” per se. Rather, we make the observation (from long personal experience, if one is an apologist like myself) that every self-described “atheist” will overwhelmingly tend to possess a particular worldview (whatever they call it or don’t call it) that is an amalgam of many specific, identifiable things that themselves are worldviews or philosophies or ways of life.

Whatever one thinks of the above analysis, it remains the case that atheists call themselves atheists, and that it is highly likely that they will hold to one or more the (usually clustered) belief-systems outlined above. And they will often be blind to the fact that they are doing so, and will talk in terms of their simply following “science” and/or “reason” (with the implication that the non-atheist usually does not do either or is fundamentally irrational or “naive” or “gullible” simply because they reject atheism). Dr. Miller reflects this annoying and condescending attitude as well, when he writes:

We may as well call ourselves the adrogonists or the alephrechaunists, inasmuch as the very identity “atheist” tacitly legitimates the patently ridiculous, as though a genuine rational debate exists between two opposing sides. To carry on with non-belief in fairies, leprechauns, ghouls, gods, angels, genies, or phantoms is merely to be reasonable, not to stake a position in any legitimate debate to be waged in society. The moon is not made of green cheese, and the dismissal of such a “Mother-Goose” characterization of reality does not earn one the tag “a-green-cheese-moonist,” but merely one who is “reasonable.” 

For, belief in mythology is and always has been a conscious, willful indulgence, not a compelling, evidence-driven conclusion; the latter we instead properly term “knowledge.” So, when it comes to the matter of deities, in a more honest world we “atheists” instead would be known merely as the reasonable (in the most literal sense of the term), that is, those compelled by a mental construction of reality determined rather exclusively by evidence and reason.

*

I cannot count how many times and contexts I have come across this ridiculous claim, a claim akin to smokers alleging that non-smokers are also themselves smokers.. Ummm.. huh? No. By very fundamental definition, atheism entails no belief. Indeed, the term affirms nothing other than the negation. By comparison, in the phrase “The man is not a bingo player,” we affirm nothing about the man, except what he is not!

Again, the word does this, but I’m not discussing a mere word; I’m talking about what atheists do in fact believe, and asserting that atheists hold to beliefs and belief-systems (usually quite predictable ones at that). In other words: atheists are just as likely to hold worldviews as anyone else.

In like fashion, the appellation “atheist” stamped upon us has served as a rhetorical misnomer, the binary recessive determined by exclusion vis-a-vis the dominant group, to follow the parlance of Jacques Derrida. Where else do people play such a game with language? Atheism is a non-group, a namespace only by negation.

This is downright comical; as if atheists don’t massively choose to call themselves this name? They could reject it if they like. They’re free to do so. No one is forcing them at gunpoint to use this name for themselves. They could use “agnostic” (and many do, but it is a less certain and less dogmatic outlook), or they could use a word like “humanist” (which a number of them also do). But the fact remains that lots and lots of atheists show no reversion to the term atheist. Quite the contrary, they proudly embrace it.

For heaven’s sake, on the very website where this essay was published, if one looks at the top, we see John Loftus’ books in a photograph: one of which is Why I Became an Atheist (which I have critiqued ten times: with total silence back from Jittery John: he of explosive disposition on the few occasions where we actually interacted).

One can peruse book titles with “atheism” in them at Amazon. The late Christopher Hitchens (a very famous and influential atheist indeed) edited a book entitled, The Portable Atheist: Essential Readings for the Nonbeliever. Loudmouthed anti-theist atheist Dan Barker authored the modestly titled volume, Godless: How an Evangelical Preacher Became One of America’s Leading Atheists. I could note a guy like “DagoodS” whom I have met in person and have debated many times. He used to be very active also at Debunking Christianity. He exhibits no aversion to the term “atheist” at all, and write a post there called “Why is an atheist an atheist?” (1-11-07), in which he opined:

But ask an atheist why they are an atheist, and most times the person is so ready to respond to why the atheist is incorrect in her reply; they literally cannot wait for the poor person to stop talking. . . .

But get into this field, and I have people everywhere almost giddy with the joy of informing me why I am an atheist, regardless of what I say. Yes, sirree! . . .

You want to know why an atheist is an atheist. Ask him. . . .

See, people become atheists for as many and varied reasons as people do just about anything else. Yes, some do because of an emotional reaction. Some are born in atheist homes.

One could easily go on and on, with scores of further examples, but it quickly becomes ridiculous and an insult to everyone’s intelligence.

In conclusion, here are some of the many things that atheists en masse believe:

1) that matter exists.
*
2) that he or she exists.
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3) that matter can be observed according to more or less predictable scientific laws (uniformitarianism).
*
4) that we can trust our senses to analyze such observations and what they mean (empiricism).
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5) in the correctness of mathematics, which starts from axioms as well.
*
6) in the laws of logic, in order to even communicate (not to mention argue) anything with any meaning at all.
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7) in presupposing that certain things are absolutely true.
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8) that matter has the inherent “God-like” / in effect “omnipotent” capability of organizing itself, evolving, inexorably developing into all that we observe in the entire universe. There is no God or even any sort of immaterial spirit that did or could do this, so it has to fall back onto matter. The belief in this without any reason whatsoever to do so is what I have written at length about as the de facto religion of “atomism.”
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9) that the universe began in a Big Bang (for who knows what reason).
*

10) that the universe created itself out of nothing (for who knows what reason), but it’s deemed more rational than the Christian believing that God is an eternal spirit, Who created the universe.

*

11) that science is the only method by which we can objectively determine facts and truth (extreme empiricism + scientism).
*

I’m sure I could come up with many more things if I sat and thought about it a while, but this is more than sufficient to demonstrate my point: atheists (as people) have worldviews, even though the word atheism itself merely means “rejecting a belief in God.”

And that’s what we lowly, despised apologists are saying. If it’s disagreed with, then I’m more than happy to interact and defend this paper. Have at it!

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Photo credit: geralt  (1-23-21) [PixabayPixabay License]
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July 7, 2020

This is a massive abridgment (keeping all the “meat and potatoes”) of a huge exchange with an atheist who goes by “DagoodS”: dating 10-21 January 2011. The original consisted of four parts, linked on my Atheist web page to Internet Archive (one / two / three / four).

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Ah, the irony and humor here . . .

This is one of those familiar cases where — in the past — only the Bible mentioned something or other. So the “smart folks” (at least some among them): those enlightened, progressive souls who alone (so they never tire of informing us) have a lock on truth and inquiry with integrity and an open mind, at one time denied that the Hittites existed as a people in history. It wasn’t sufficient for them that the Bible frequently mentioned them (the only known source that did until 140 or so years ago). They looked down their noses at the Bible as a source for solid historical documentation and information.

Lo and behold, in the last quarter of the 19th century and especially by 1906-1907 a series of archaeological finds placed the existence of the Hittites (as both a distinct ancient people and an empire) beyond the reasonable doubt of any serious scholar in the field. The Bible was right again.

But, alas, now there is apparently a polemical atheist canard that Christians have engaged in shoddy apologetics, insofar as we have claimed that some skeptics once denied the existence of the Hittites. Are we Christian apologists engaged in a cynical cover-up of a truth we either know and have deliberately concealed (in our know-nothing dogmatism), or have long since forgotten (thus displaying our historical ignorance and shoddy research capabilities)?

Now let’s go on to an examination of whether anyone of note did deny the existence of the Hittites, or (a lesser claim) the Bible’s accuracy regarding them. In an article for the British Quarterly Review (July 1882), William Wright states:

I hope not only to prove the Bible true by contemporary and corroborative evidence, but also to show that a great empire, forgotten by ancient and modern historians must be restored to the ancient kingdoms of the world. By confirming the Bible we shall discover a lost empire.

It is desirable that this investigation should be undertaken, because the casual references to the Hittites in the Bible have been used by the enemies of Divine revelation to discredit the historical accuracy of the book, and some of the weak friends of the Bible have begun to propagate doubt where they cannot disprove.

In 1857 Professor F. W. [Francis William] Newman, fellow of Balliol College, Oxford, in his History of the Hebrew Monarchy [pp. 178, 179, Vol. xii], speaks of the Bible references to the Hittites as ‘unhistorical,’ and as ‘not exhibiting the writer’s acquaintance with the times in a very favourable light,’ and the Rev. T. K. [Thomas Kelly] Cheyne, Fellow of the same college, writing on the Hittites, in the Encyclopaedia Britannica, last year [1881], treats the Bible statements regarding the Hittites as unhistorical and unworthy of credence. Referring to the mention of the Hittites in the Book of Genesis, he says, ‘ The lists of these pre-Israelitish populations cannot be taken as strictly historical documents,’ ‘they cannot be taken as of equal authority with Egyptian and Assyrian inscriptions;’ and, carrying out his comparison, he adds, ‘Not less unfavourable to the accuracy of the Old Testament references to the Hittites is the evidence deducible from proper names.’ I shall examine these references to the Bible in the light of Egyptian and Assyrian inscriptions when I come to the passages referred to. It is enough here to draw attention to the manner and progress of unbelief. Professor Newman discredits what he does not understand, and Mr. Cheyne, mistaking the arrogance of scepticism for disproved facts, accepts his predecessor’s conclusions, and gives them the wider currency of his own credit. [pp. 53-54]

[see also the same author’s Hittites Up to Date (1892) for a general treatment of the Hittites and the history of archaeological skepticism]

[see also, Cheyne’s entire article on the Hittites for the 9th edition of Encyclopaedia Britannica]

Note, however, that neither Newman’s nor Cheyne’s positions entail an absolute denial that the Hittites existed: only a severe doubting of many particulars and the general thrust of the biblical accounts, which have since been corroborated by archaeological evidence.

Exact names of the skeptical archaeologists and other scholars who denied the historicity of the Hittites are hard to come by (I’ve spent many hours myself trying to track some down), but (according to reputable reports) they appear to have been numerous to some extent prior to the last quarter of the nineteenth century, when many successful and fantastically fruitful excavations were undertaken. Here are, for example, three allusions to such skepticism, from Christian scholarly sources:

The lack of extra-biblical testimony to their existence led some scholars about a half-century ago to deny their historicity. They scoffed at the idea of Israel allying herself with such an unhistorical people as the Hittites, as narrated in 2 Kings vii.6. But those utterances have vanished into thin air. (Ira M. Price, The Monuments and the Old Testament [Philadelphia: American Baptist Publication Society: 1907], pp. 75-76).

[S]ome scholars in the nineteenth century expressed doubts as to the existence or at least the importance of such an ancient people. (Joseph P. Free, Archaeology and Bible History [Wheaton, Illinois: Scripture Press Publications, Inc., revised edition: 1969], p. 125)

Twenty-five years ago some of the foremost orientalists did not believe in the existence of a Hittite nation. (The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia, edited by James Orr, five volumes [Grand Rapids, Michigan: Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Co., 1956; from the 1929 version], “Hittites,” John Garstang, vol. III, p. 1402 ff.)

Now, of course, the atheist will come back and say, “those are Christian sources, so who cares if they merely make a general statement like that?! Why should we trust them? It doesn’t prove anything. They’re biased, and are just perpetuating the old wives’ tale. They don’t name names or document their contentions.”

Well, I would say we trust them because two of them come from archaeologists who can be trusted to accurately report the history of their own area of study (even if they are biased towards Christianity). Note that archaeology scarcely existed in the mid-19th century, which is why none of the three citations use the term “archaeologist.” An “orientalist” or near eastern historian or biblical scholar would be more what they had in mind.

So if the choice in conflicting statements lies between two Christian archaeologists with a bias towards “pro-biblical” sentiments (one even an expert on the Hittites) and a professor of Semitic languages on one side, and a polemical former Christian atheist lawyer with a strong bias against the Bible on the other, I think (in matters of archaeology and the history of same, and of its precursors) I will go — all things being equal — with the Christian archaeologists: just as I would prefer DagoodS if the question had to do with the law: that being his field.

Joseph P. Free was chairman of the Department of Archaeology at Wheaton College, Illinois. He led extensive excavations at Dothan (associated with Joseph and Elisha in the Bible) from 1953-1964.

John Garstang (1876-1956) was an eminent archaeologist: educated at Oxford, professor at the University of Liverpool (1907-1941), and author of many volumes in the field, including The Burial Customs of Ancient Egypt as illustrated by the Tombs of the Middle Kingdom… (London, John Constable, 1907), The Land of the Hittites… (Constable, 1910), The Hittite Empire... (Constable, 1929), The Heritage of Solomon (Williams and Nortgate, 1934), and (with J. B. E. Garstang) The Story of Jericho (Hodder & Stoughton, 1940). He is listed in the Oxford Dictionary of National Biography.

Ira Maurice Price (1856-1939) was a professor at the University of Chicago and cooperating editor of The American Journal of Semitic Languages and Literatures from 1892 till his death. He had a distinguished scholarly career, receiving his doctorate from the University of Leipzig (1886). He was a professor of Semitic languages and literatures in the University of Chicago from 1900-1939 and author of books such as Syllabus of Old Testament History (New York, 1891), The Great Cylinder inscriptions (A and B) of Gudea, part 1 (Leipzig, 1899), Some Literary Remains of Rim-Sin (Arioch) of Larsa (1905), and The Ancestry of our English Bible (Philadelphia, 1907).

I have no good reason to doubt the above reports: especially that of Garstang, who wrote books about the Hittites and can be fully expected to know the history of his own field and the history of general scholarly thought regarding the Hittites.

I have found more information, from The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia, (“Archaeology,” written by M. G. Kyle, Vol. I, p. 230-231 [italics as they appear in my own hardcover set; green highlighting my own] ):

2. Theories Affecting the Integrity or Historicity of Scripture.
*
Many critical theories attacking the integrity or historicity of Scripture, i.e. reconstructive theories, have been utterly discredited by archaeological evidence, and, in some cases, abandoned by those who held them (compare Driver, Genesis, addenda, 7th edition, xx). . . .
*
Descending now to a few of the great mass of particulars, we may mention:
*
(d) Mythology and Bible:
*
The theory of the legendary character of the four kings of Genesis 14, and of the Hittites; and theory of the generally mythological character of the early portions of the Bible. . . .
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(2) The Hittites:
*
Then grave doubts in the past have been raised concerning the Hittites. Occasionally it has been boldly said that “no such people ever existed” (compare Newman, Hebrew Monarchy, 184-85; Budge, Hist of Egypt, IV , 136). But in addition to the treaty of Rameses II with the “Kheta,” long generally believed to have been the Hittites (RP, 2nd series, IV, 25-32), and the references to the “Hatti” in the Tell el-Amarna Letters, also thought to be the same people, we now have Winckler’s great discovery of the Hittite capital at Boghaz-Koi, and the Hittite copy of the treaty with Rameses II in the cuneiform script. The Hittites are seen to be a great nation, a third with Egypt and Babylonia (OLZ, December 15, 1906).

Dr. M. G. [Melvin Grove] Kyle (D.D., LL.D.) (author of this article) was an Egyptologist and Newburg Professor of Biblical Theology and Biblical Archaeology at Xenia Theological Seminary, associate editor of Bibliotheca Sacra, and author of the books, Moses and the Monuments: Light from Archaeology on Pentateuchal Times and The Problem of the Pentateuch: A New Solution by Archaeological Methods (both Oberlin: 1920). He wrote a chapter entitled, “The Recent Testimony of Archaeology to the Scriptures,” which was Chapter 17 of Volume 1 of The Fundamentals: A Testimony to the Truth (1909): the famous work of Christian defense. In his chapter, he wrote (my green highlighting):

II. The Hittite Vindication

A second recent testimony of archaeology gives us the great Hittite vindication. The Hittites have been, in one respect, the Trojans of Bible history; indeed, the inhabitants of old Troy were scarcely more in need of a Schliemann to vindicate their claim to reality than the Hittites of a Winckler.

In 1904 one of the foremost archaeologists of Europe said to me: “I do not believe there ever were such people as the Hittites, and I do not believe ‘Kheta’ in the Egyptian inscriptions was meant for the name Hittites.” We will allow that archaeologist to be nameless now. But the ruins of Troy vindicated the right of her people to a place in real history, and the ruins of Boghatz-Köi bid fair to afford a more striking vindication of the Bible representation of the Hittites.

Only the preliminary announcement of Winckler’s great treasury of documents from Boghatz-Köi has yet been made. The complete unfolding of a long-eclipsed great national history is still awaited impatiently. But enough has been published to redeem this people completely from their half-mythical plight, and give them a firm place in sober history greater than imagination had ever fancied for them under the stimulus of any hint contained in the Bible.

There has been brought to light a Hittite empire in Asia Minor, with central power and vassal dependencies round about and with treaty rights on equal terms with the greatest nations of antiquity, thus making the Hittite power a third great power with Babylonia and Egypt, . . .

Dr. George Frederick Wright (D.D. LL.D.; [evolutionist] geologist as well as historian and theologian, and prolific author) wrote Chapter 16 in the same volume (I), entitled “The Testimony of the Monuments to the Truth of the Scriptures.” He stated:

Until the decipherment of the inscriptions on the monuments of Egypt and Assyria, the numerous references in the Bible to this mysterious people were unconfirmed by any other historical authorities, so that many regarded the biblical statements as mythical, and an indication of the general untrustworthiness of biblical history. A prominent English biblical critic declared not many years ago that an alliance between Egypt and the Hittites was as improbable as would be one at the present time between England and the Choctaws. But, alas for the over-confident critic, recent investigations have shown, not only that such an alliance was natural, but that it actually occurred. . . .

It is impossible to overestimate the value of this testimony in confirmation of the correctness of biblical history. It shows conclusively that the silence of profane historians regarding facts stated by the biblical writers is of small account, in face of direct statements made by the biblical historians. All the doubts entertained in former times concerning the accuracy of the numerous biblical statements concerning the Hittites is now seen to be due to our ignorance. It was pure ignorance, not superior knowledge, which led so many to discredit these representations. When shall we learn the inconclusiveness of negative testimony?

Rev. F. E. Hartman, in “The Story of Biblical Criticism” (The Expositor, Vol. XXI, No. 241; October 1919), writes:

Vatke regarded the first four books of the Old Testament as largely mythical . . .

The Hittites mentioned in the Bible were claimed by the destructives to be mythical and the numerous statements concerning them an indication of the general untrustworthiness of biblical history, because those statements were not confirmed by any other historical records. But now the Inscriptions on the monuments discovered in Egypt, Assyria, Armenia, Asia Minor, and northward, tell us of the expeditions and wars and widespread power of the Hittite kings. . . . The monuments have confirmed so much of biblical history that the supposed silence of profane history should be considered of small account in the face of the direct statements of the biblical writers. (pp. 785-786)

In the same work, Hartman names several higher critics (he calls them “destructives”): [Johann Gottfried] Eichhorn[Frederick Carl] Eiselen[Wilhelm Martin Leberecht] De Wette[Wilhelm] Vatke[Abraham] Kuenen, [Johann S.] Vater, [Julius] Wellhausen[Heinrich] Ewald, [Edward] Reuss, [George] Graf[David] Strauss[Ferdinand Christian] Bauer, and [Ernest] Renan. He is referring to at least some of these men in his statement above. Perhaps searching these names with “Hittite” will yield some individual skeptical statements.

See also the Wikipedia listings of German Theologians and German Orientalists. and additional figures listed in Wikipedia, “Higher Criticism”Jean Astruc (mid-18th cent.), Johann Salomo Semler (1725–91), Friedrich Schleiermacher (1768–1834), Ludwig Feuerbach (1804–72), Samuel Taylor ColeridgeBenjamin Jowett.
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William Wright, responding to T. K. Cheyne on 3 April 1885 (in The Academy, Vol. 27, April 18, 1885, No. 676, p. 278), stated:

Dr. Cheyne saw reason more than two years ago to modify his views with regard to the “Hittites of Genesis.”

Dr. Cheyne is pleased to contrast his principles of Old Testament criticism with mine, of course without knowing what mine are. But on this point there need be no mystery. For the purposes of my book it is enough to assume that the Bible is a venerable old document which professes to deal with certain fact.’. These facts I assume to be true until I have reason to doubt them, and on this principle I welcome every discovery and scrap of genuine evidence which add to the reasonable probability of the statements in the Bible. The Saturday Review, referring to the point at issue between Dr. Cheyne and me, fitly sums up the case thus:

“Granting that the sacred writers were unscrupulous, it would still be impossible to imagine why they should fill their early records with the most matter-of-fact references to a purely imaginary people. There is no nonsense that the professors of the Higher Criticism will not talk.”

I have nothing to do with Dr. Cheyne personally. But Dr. Cheyne’s articles in the Encyclopaedia Britannica are public property, and he has no right to demand that I shall omit all references to his assertions. I venture to say that such a demand was never made before by an author. Why should he make such a request, seeing he has nothing to alter? It has been my aim not to misrepresent Dr. Cheyne’s statements, and in the second edition of my book, now in the press, I have softened a few phrases which I feared might give pain; but until he formally withdraws certain assertions discrediting Bible narratives I shall consider it my duty to confront his assertions by the ascertained facts of modern research.

Methodist Review, January 1895, p. 137 ff.: “Archaeology and Biblical Research: The Hittites” (unknown author):

Should the reader take a concordance of the Old Testament and examine the passages referring to the Hittites he would be convinced at once, if he had no theory to maintain, that he was reading history, and not the exploits of some legendary people, the mere creation of some Oriental story-teller. The references are so explicit and numerous as to preclude the idea of a myth or interpolation. . . .

The last three notices, though not as full and explicit as could be desired, yet read like genuine history and show clearly that the Hittites, mentioned, as they are, alongside of the kings of Egypt and Syria, were a people of commanding influence. It is, therefore, strange that, in the face of such evidence as we have and such circumstantial statements in so many places in the Old Testament where there could have been no motives for interpolations or the introduction of myths, there are learned men, like Francis William Newman, who boldly stamp the account of the panic in the Syrian camp at Samaria as an extraordinary creation of the imagination. The story as told in the Bible, according to Newman, “does not exhibit the writer’s acquaintance with the times in a very favorable light. Its unhistorical tone is too manifest to allow of our easy belief in it.” And, as if these statements were not strong enough, the appends the following note: “No Hittite kings can have compared in power with the king of Judah, the real and near ally, who is not mentioned at all. . . . Nor is there a single mark of acquaintance with the contemporaneous history.” Scholars like De Goeze and Merx insist that several references to the Hittites in the Old Testament are either interpolations or unhistorical.

Professor Cheyne is very loath to accept the biblical account of the Hittites, and, were it not for the more sure word of the Egyptian monuments and Assyrian tablets, he, like Newman, would make a short work of this troublesome people. Says the learned professor, in an article on the subject, ” Some confusion has been caused in the treatment of the history of the Hittites by the uncritical use of the Old Testament.” Cheyne, though forced to admit that the Hittites are repeatedly mentioned in the Bible, yet insists that the lists in which they and other pre-Israelitish populations are given cannot be strictly historical documents. To throw greater doubt upon the biblical records he assumes that they were all written centuries after the events described had taken place and, therefore, less worthy of credence than the monuments of Egypt and Assyria. . . .

Though we know, with certainty, neither the language nor the origin of the Hittites, the time has passed when any scholar will relegate this ancient and powerful people to the realm of the mythical. How gloriously God’s word vindicated by the ancient monuments of lost empires!

William Wright responded further to T. K. Cheyne, in The Academy, [Vol. 27, May 2, 1885, No. 646, p. 316] on April 27, 1888:

“THE EMPIRE OF THE HITTITES.”

London : April 27, 1888. In the midst of much that is incoherent in Dr. Cheyne’s letter he has not made very clear his attitude pro tem. to the Bible. My assumption that “the Bible is a venerable old document which professes to deal with facts ” he declares to be “a bold historical heresy.” The assumption is one which no scientific man, whether he believed in the Bible or not, would challenge. For the purposes of my book it was unnecessary to assume any higher authority for the Bible than that accorded to any other venerable book. I thought I should be here on common ground with Dr. Cheyne. I did not even assume that the Bible deals with facts, but only that it professes to deal with facts. Is it this lowly and self-evident assumption that Dr. Cheyne stigmatises as “bold historical heresy”? Or is it simply the word document instead of documents that Dr. Cheyne makes so much of? He speaks of the ” seventy tablets” of Sargon as a “venerable document,” and he would hardly call it heresy to speak in the same convenient way of the collection of books which make up the Bible. If this should be his meaning I am quite willing to use “collection of documents,” or any similar phrase, but without changing my position in any other way.

A few secondary matters in Dr. Cheyne’s letter require correction. He begins by accepting my “concession.” I am not aware that I have made any concession, or that I can make any concession consistently with loyalty to facts.

He says: “No one would guess from Dr. Wright’s letter that the book (not books) of Kings was quite distinct from the book of Genesis.” I have made no reference in my letter to either book or books of Kings. Does Dr. Cheyne’s theory permit him to annotate without consulting his text?

I am not sure if Dr. Cheyne still labours under the impression that I am an American. He thinks it was not uncharitable to account for my criticism “on the assumption of the author’s different nationality.” It is my privilege to know a number of American scholars who, with firm loyalty to the Bible, advocate as I do the fullest critical freedom; and I think Dr. Cheyne would act more charitably if he conceded ordinary morality to scholars of every nationality.

I notice with pleasure the increase of courtesy in Dr. Cheyne’s style, and I think it is to be regretted that he considered it necessary to import personal matters into this controversy, or to raise the absurd cry of ” heresy.”

Having said so much, I think the time has come for closing this controversy. Dr. Cheyne admits that the references to the Hittites in the Book of Kings are in accordance with “recent archaeological discoveries.” He wishes me to mention that he does not object to support “the statements of a Biblical writer by sound archaeological evidence.” He admits that the Kheta of the Egyptian inscriptions, the Khatti of the Assyrian, and the Hittites of the Bible are the same people. He admits that Hittite influence “extended even into Asia Minor.” He considers it proved ” that the Hittites penetrated through the Eastern barrier formed by the Taurus range,” and he recognises evidence of the extension of their power to the shores of the Aegean. He is favourable to the hypothesis that the Hittites were the early civilisers of Asia Minor, and he considers them non-Semitic, and the authors of the Hittite inscriptions.

It would thus seem that we are agreed on all points but one, namely, the accuracy of the account of the Hittites in the Book of Genesis. On this point there should no longer be any difference between us. Dr. Cheyne admits publicly, “that a branch of the Kheta may once have existed in Palestine”; but he adds, “unfortunately there is no historical evidence that it did so.” Since he wrote these words, as I have already pointed out, Dr. Cheyne admitted privately, that he had reconsidered the question, and I cannot understand why his full recognition should be any longer withheld from a cause which his own industry has done so much to promote.

The new edition of my book is delayed by the preparation of additional plates of new inscriptions and sculptures, but I shall not regret the delay if thereby I may be able to add Dr. Cheyne’s maturer conclusions.

Hal Flemings, Examining Criticisms of the Bible (AuthorHouse: 2008, p. 101):

Up until the late 1870s, critics argued loudly that the Hittites were a myth, that the Bible’s references to them were inaccurate and non-historical. Even early editions of the respected Encyclopaedia Britannica referred to the Hittites as “a mythological civilization mentioned only in the Bible.” All that changed when archaeological discoveries produced startling evidence of a thriving Hittite civilization.

From the above information, we have now determined that there were a number of people (essentially, adherents of the school of “Higher Criticism”) who questioned not only the existence of the Hittites, or at least the biblical accounts of same, but also the bulk of the early narrative histories of the Old Testament. 27 of the 46 biblical mentions of the Hittites (or 59%) occur in Genesis, Exodus, Numbers, Deuteronomy, Joshua, and Judges. Here they are:

Johann Philipp Gabler (1753-1826; German)
Johann Severin Vater (1771-1826; German)
Friedrich Wilhelm Joseph Schelling (1775-1854; German)
Wilhelm Martin Leberecht De Wette (1780-1849; German)
Ferdinand Christian Bauer (1792-1860; German)
Wilhelm Vatke (1806-1882; German )
David Friedrich Strauss (1808-1874; German) [lengthy quotation]
Hermann Schultz (1836-1903; German) [quotation]
Theodor Noldeke (1836-1930; German)
*
To a somewhat lesser extent, the following persons were also skeptical of the Hittites, as presented in the Bible:
*
Francis William Newman (1805-1897; English) [Cardinal Newman’s brother] [quotation]
Thomas Kelly Cheyne (1841-1915; English) [quotation]
Sir Ernest Alfred Thompson Wallis Budge (1857-1934; English)
*

It’s much more difficult to find bald statements that “the Hittites didn’t exist”: for a variety of reasons. It’s very old material (before 1881, for the most part); a great deal would be in German (since Germany was the hotbed of “higher criticism”); like much of theological liberalism, the language is highly nuanced and not given to succinct statements of this sort. The bulk of the evidence involves a characterization of the early narratives in the Bible as fiction; therefore, this would include the Hittites among many other alleged myths (such as Abraham, etc.). In other words, if Genesis is a “myth,” then the stories and reports of the Hittites recorded therein are also myths, as opposed to historical fact.

The best ironclad proof at this point appears to be editions of the Encyclopaedia Britannica prior to and including 1881. My task is to track them down. If the reputed quote about the Hittites as “a mythological civilization mentioned only in the Bible” turns out to be accurate, then this pseudo-“debate” is completely over.

Moreover,  it’s simple logic:

1) Six early books of the Bible contain 27 references to the Hittites.

2) Skeptics denied that these six books are historical, or thinks they are mostly mythical / legendary, etc.

3) Therefore, before the time of the confirming archaeological discoveries (mostly after 1875): when most of the higher critics above lived, to deny the historicity of those accounts, was to deny the historicity of the Hittites, since at that time, only the Bible had any information at all about them.

Current research corroborates the biblical account. For example, Trevor Bryce, in The Kingdom of the Hittites (Oxford University Press, new edition, 2005, p. 356) comments on 2 Kings 7:6:

This conveys the impression that the Hittite kings were at least commensurate in importance and power with the Egyptian Pharaohs. A similar impression is conveyed by 2 Chron. 1:17 . . . In these cases the references may well be to the neo-Hittite kingdoms of Syria. . . .

Hoffner [see his many books on the topic] has commented that Hittite cultural influence reaching the Israelites indirectly via the Canaanite kingdoms, after a passage of time, is detectable in many instances. His contention is that through many years of contact with cities in Syria and Phoenicia (Carchemish, Aleppo, Ugarit) Hittite civilization left its mark there. From their Hittite influences may have filtered southwards to Israel just prior to the beginning of the kingdom of David. . . .

[related footnote 142 on p. 487] . . . see most recently the discussion of Singer . . . who regards as conclusive the identification of these [Canaanite, biblical] Hittites with those of the neo-Hittite kingdoms of Syria and southern Anatolia.

On p. 388 Bryce refers to “the period from c. 1100 to 700 BC, i.e., the period of the neo-Hittite kingdoms.”

As a representative example of dozens of similar statements I have seen in my research, we have the following from Bibliotheca Sacra: the oldest theological journal in America: published by Andover Newton Theological School from 1844 to 1884, Oberlin College from 1884 to 1922, Xenia Seminary from 1922 to 1934, and Dallas Seminary ever since. The following is from an article written by M. B. Stearns (my green emphases):

It is also well to remind ourselves of the numerous facts stated in the Bible which were formerly ridiculed by the critics, but which have now been confirmed by archaeology. Among others, there is the early date of writing. It is many a long year since the critics argued that Moses could not write, for tablets are now available dating from about 3500 B.C. written in the ancestor of cuneiform script. Then there is the famous case of Belshazzar of Babylon whose existence used to be doubted, until archaeology came to his rescue. Similarly with the Hittite race, now discovered to have been one of the great peoples of antiquity. It is interesting to know that Sir Leonard Woolley, whose name has become a household word because of his remarkable discoveries at Abraham’s city of Ur, is at present engaged in the excavation of a great Hittite palace near Antioch in Syria, built about 1600 B.C. Of this discovery he himself has written to the London Times“The frequent references in the Old Testament to Hittites living in Syria and Palestine in the Patriarchal age, which have often been rejected as anachronisms, may yet prove sound history.” For if the Hittites were established in Antioch as early as 1600 B.C., there may well have been some members of their race farther South.’ (“Biblical Archaeology and the Higher Critics,” Vol. 96 [July-Sep 1939], 307-318; citation from pp. 316-317; thanks to Douglas E. Ward from Miami University for this information)

I ran across another interesting citation. This person, Claude Reignier Conder, denies that there was such a thing as the “Hittite Empire” and also that the Hittites were a “distinct race” (my green emphases):

I have always felt that the theory of a ‘Hittite Empire’ rested on no very secure base. If we had found the Hittites to belong to some distinct race, the theory might be still necessary, but it is so no longer. On the monuments we hear of the Hittites only as a powerful and civilized tribe of Syria. The tribes of Asia Minor did not bear the name. In the Bible we have no notice of a Hittite Empire, but only of the chiefs of the Hittite country—which was Northern Syria. Herodotus could not have had any personal objection to the Hittites, but he certainly never tells us of a Hittite Empire, nor does any other ancient writer. This empire was not, I think, ‘forgotten,’ for it never existed. The point may seem very unimportant, but I think one reason why the texts have never been previously read is because they were not recognised as Altaic, and because the Hittites were regarded as a distinct stock. (Altaic Hieroglyphs and Hittite Inscriptions, London [?]: Richard Bentley and Son, 1887, pp. 138-140)

There exists no antipathy towards Homer, or secondarily, to the existence of Troy, because Homer is harmless fantasy that has no bearing on anyone’s life. It doesn’t claim to be revelation. No one is obliged to follow any moral commands in the book. Therefore there is no reason to have a strong hostility against it. I submit the following analogy:

A) Many people used to deny that Troy existed because only Homer mentioned it.

B) Many people used to deny that the Hittites existed because only the Bible mentioned them.

A2) No one feels any particular need to document the former skepticism about Troy, because it is so widely understood to have occurred.

B2) Therefore, by analogy, no one necessarily feels any particular need to document the former skepticism about the Hittites, because it is so widely understood (at least by the archaeologists who first challenged it) to have occurred.

C) But the history of pre-archaeological biblical skepticism is not as widely known as the history of the view of Troy and the beginnings of archaeology; therefore, it is demanded that defenders of the Bible have to document to a tee, since the history is more unknown.

D) But none of this proves that the Hittite skepticism didn’t exist. Many reputable, credentialed scholars say that it did, and there is no good reason to doubt their professional opinion about the history of their own field.

The problem is not holding the Bible to the same standard; it is the opposite: holding it to a far different standard than other works. The Bible is not taken at face value when it presents history, even though it has been corroborated by outside evidence again and again. There is exponentially greater skepticism brought to it by the skeptical mentality: that nothing else is subjected to.

The prior [early 19th century] bias, I believe, worked in the following way: “if only the Bible mentions the Hittites, then I cannot trust it, because it is a religious document.” But the Bible is also historical, and presents accurate history. This was denied by some simply because it was also religious, and claimed to be revelation.

In terms of archaeology and historiography, all we’re asking for is that the Bible is treated like any other document, and not approached with extreme hostility, before any particular question is even considered.

Fiction, even historical fiction (Gone With the Wind, etc.), is understood to be just that. I grant that one could still hold that there was a Moses and an Abraham and Hittites, while claiming that the accounts are essentially mythological. But archaeology has shown that the Bible is far more than myth, which is the point. Melvin Grove Kyle (D.D., LL.D.), The Deciding Voice of the Monuments in Biblical Criticism (Oberlin, Ohio: Bibliotheca Sacra Co.: 1912), pp. 105-106 (my green emphases):

Some had even gone so far as to say, though not often for publication, that “no such people as the Hittites ever existed.” Budge, in his History of Egypt, says: “The Kheta, who are, no doubt, the people referred to by the Assyrians under the name of Khatti, have been identified with the Hittites of Holy Scripture, but on insufficient grounds,” and again, “In passing it must be stated that the commonly accepted identification of the Kheta with the Hittites of the Bible is as yet unproved, since it rests only upon the similarity between the Hebrew name Heth, and the Egyptian name Kheta.”

The inhabitants of old Troy were no more in need of a Schliemann to justify their claim to a right of real existence and a place in history, than the Hittites were of some friendly discoverer to deliver them from the serious suspicion of, to say the least, legendary accretions of character, if not even of unreality. In 1906 the deliverer came. Winckler uncovered the ruins at Boghatz-keui and brought to light, in addition to architectural ruins and a treasury of inscriptions in Hittite hieroglyphs, also tablets in cuneiform script. Among these latter was found the Hittite copy of the same treaty of peace between Rameses II and the “Kheta.” What these tablets, when fully understood, may yet reveal concerning the Hittites and what vast and amazing additions to learning may come with the decipherment of the Hittite hieroglyphs themselves, an event which certainly cannot much longer be delayed, no one can tell. Already there is this important result; no one is saying now that “no such people as the Hittites ever existed.”

So one by one the so-called myths and legends of the Bible are being given their place in sober history and the ghostly heroes are walking in common flesh and blood among the other real heroes of life. As this process goes on (and the list of illustrations might be extended to nearly every patriarchal narrative) there is being supplied that complete historical setting into which the narratives of the Bible fit with perfect naturalness. But legends and myths do not receive such confirmation and do not so fit into an historical setting. That they do not do so is one of the characteristics which mark them as myths or legends.

Now, almost by accident, I have managed to discover the identity of the anonymous person above who denied that the Hittites existed at all. This is done by comparing another statement from Kyle: in his piece entitled, “The Recent Testimony of Archaeology to the Scriptures.” When the two passages are examined side-by-side, it is clear that the person who made the striking, sweeping statement of denial was none other than Sir Ernest Alfred Thompson Wallis Budge (1857-1934), someone I had already named as “skeptical of the Hittites” but “to a somewhat lesser extent” (based on the information I had before: which was basically the published statements above). I had also suspected before that he might be the anonymous person (because of being mentioned in the context), but I had no evidence at my disposal to be sure.

The fact that Kyle and Budge were both Egyptologists explains how they would have been friendly enough for Budge to have confided to him privately that he thought the Hittites never existed. Kyle was charitable enough to not name him, but left clues that I managed to decipher (ironically an exercise of a sort of fun “literary archaeology”) by consulting the similarities of the two above accounts.

That Budge would qualify as “one of the foremost archaeologists of Europe” is unarguable, after one looks at his credentials, accomplishments, knighthood, numerous important publications (over 120 books!), etc. (see an online biography that summarizes his incredible academic achievements). In 1904 at the time of the private communication he was Keeper at the British Museum.

Budge is the man who made the statement that removes all doubt as to whether anyone held such a view. And he did this (even more strikingly) in 1904 after it was almost inexcusable to still take such a view.

In his 1929 (originally 1913?) book, The Rosetta Stone, Budge gives indirect indication of his skepticism in print, by putting every instance of the word Hittite or Hittites in the text (pp. 194-196) in quotation marks: thus suggesting a questionable identification, whereas he does no such thing for Babylonians, Assyrians, etc.

Budge writes similarly in his volume, A Guide to the Babylonian and Assyrian Antiquities (London: Harrison & Sons: 1900), where he uses skeptical phraseology such as “. . . which has been called Hittite” (p. 27) and “seals inscribed in the so-called Hittite character” (p. 200).

Our arduous journey has, therefore, come full circle, and we have accomplished our task. Dr. Kyle left the clues as to the identity of this person (Dr. Budge). He didn’t want to say it outright, in deference to a friend and colleague, so as not to embarrass him, but on the other hand, it was valuable information on the presence of such skepticism, and how archaeology eliminated such a radical view, so he felt obliged to leave strong inferences: strong enough that I can stumble upon them almost a hundred years later and put two and two together.

***
Photo credit: Sir Ernest Alfred Thompson Wallis Budge by Bassano, in the National Portrait Gallery, London. [source page]
***
September 7, 2019

Discussions About Christian Sexual Morality and Marriage with Atheists

This topic always generates all sorts of controversy; never fails. This took place in a thread at the notorious Debunking Christianity site. I was foolish enough to think I could get somewhere with sociological data, in dealing with sex and societal trends regarding same. It seems not. But you never know. Some seed of doubt may have been planted one or two readers. If so, my frustration and weariness with the continual misrepresentation of traditional Christian views on sexuality will have been worth it .

The atheists’ words will be in the following colors:

John W. Loftus: orange
Martin Wagner: blue
Daniel: brown
trinity: green
Bruce: purple

*****

Christians feel guilty about their sexual fantasies, and are afraid to bring them up to their spouses, so their sex life goes dull after about seven years of being married.

Is that so? Wow, I never knew that.  I guess I didn’t notice it (as a Christian, very happily married for 22 years now; silly me). Many studies have shown that strongly Christian couples are among the most sexually happy marriages: a lot more than those of the swingers and advocates of free sex and so forth. It’s a known fact that promiscuity before marriage tends to adversely affect monogamous relationships, because one is always fantasizing about the others and comparing them, etc.

God designed sex for one couple, married for life. That is what works best, and there is much secular sociological data to support this.

Likewise, all the things Christians believe in (stable marriages, two-parent families [i.e., male and female!], no divorce, mother staying at home if at all possible, etc.) are now known to be far healthier for children (studies on the adverse effect of day care are now coming out).

I just posted an article about how much of hip hop music contains themes of broken homes. These musicians are expressing the agony of the fruits of the sexual revolution.

* * *

As for this “secular sociological data” which you don’t cite, I can cite the Barna Research study that showed divorce rates for conservative Christians were higher than those of other faith groups, as well as atheists and agnostics.

Yeah, I know. I’ve written about that myself: even in my last published book.

But you have to control for seriousness of religious fervor. When you do that, and you look at couples who, e.g., pray together, do devotions or Bible studies together; go to church every week, etc. the divorce rates go down to 5% or 10%. That’s a very significant statistic indeed.

Without trying to refute your correlation, just pointing out something important: people who do any activity very regularly show the hallmark(s) of devotion and discipline. It could be thought, and I am not aware if such studies are done, that the same correlation may also hold between X and low divorce rate, where X = exercising together regularly, eating at least 4x a week together, setting aside “date nights”, being Buddhist and doing yoga together, being Hindu and praying to Shiva, being atheists and attending a UU church…etc.

I think this is an important consideration in evaluating the likelihood of divorce by criteria that demonstrate the ability of the couple to maintain discipline in their routine and a degree of devotion to each other.

Just a thought.

I agree that many factors could contribute to happy marriages. Common interests are obviously one (whatever they are). When I said regular prayer and Bible study and so forth, I meant that more in the sense of “indication of strong religious commitment” rather than “shared activity” (though it is that too).

As a general observation I would point out that Christian moral teaching fits in perfectly with how we feel ourselves to be; our needs and wants.

Most of us feel that one partner is best for us. That’s Christian teaching.

No one thinks divorce is a good thing. That’s Christian teaching.

Adultery seriously injures the wronged party. Christian teaching says to not do it, as one of the most serious sins.

Try to talk to your wife or husband about numerous sexual conquests or escapades before you met; see how well that goes over. Christian teaching opposes fornication and restricts sex to marriage.

You men: go suggest to your wife that swinging or wife-swapping might be fun. See how well that goes over. Women want you to be devoted to them, and them only, and for this to last forever. Christianity opposes that; but “open marriage” says otherwise. who says that marriage is to death? You know who. Everyone wants that, ideally, yet when we come along and try to make it binding, so it can have every chance of succeeding, everyone thinks it’s legalism and unreality. No; it is exactly reality, to make binding what everyone claims they want and want to try to achieve.

I was watching a special on the Beatles’ wives, and it said that George had a crush on Ringo’s wife Maureen and suggested one night that they swap wives. Everyone was shocked, and this documentary said that contributed to the downfall of Ringo’s marriage (Maureen died of leukemia at age 47, by the way).

Everyone knows that George’s wife Patti was the cutest by far of all the Beatles wives. :-) :-)

And likewise, John told his wife Cynthia in 1968 that he had slept with about 300 women. That went over great. Why is that? why is it that premarital or extramarital sex is glorified by our culture, yet if someone tries to DO it they often get in big trouble with their spouse? Christianity is the belief-system that says that we should stick to one person (of the opposite sex: a whole other discussion). It’s almost self-evident that this works out best. Everyone knows it.

People may choose divorce if their marriage is a failure, but no one wants this, and no one sets out in a serious relationship with separation as a serious option. Almost all of us have that yearning to find one person and make it work forever (as a million love songs are about).

So Christianity simply says what we already know (part of a larger argument I’ve been having with DagoodS: that Christian morals build upon natural law and morals, and what every human being knows within himself).

I could go on and on with this, but you catch my drift . . .

* * *

And certainly if you controlled for premarital sex, that would be highly significant, too (there is no doubt in my mind). In other words, for those who truly believe and consistently live out Christian morality (for the most part: as we all fail now and then), there will be an impact on marriage as in all other parts of life.

Those who don’t do that shouldn’t surprise us if they fall prey to all the prevailing societal trends. Christians are famous for that. But it makes no sense to critique Christianity for failures that occur precisely because folks aren’t following the very Christian teaching that would make a difference if it was faithfully followed.

Baby – bathwater . . . .

* * *

What exactly is this “Christian morality” of which you speak,

Traditional Christian values: that the secular world is so furiously against these days.

and is there any reason to suspect that it’s any more conducive to marital bliss than a non-religious ethical system based on reason and humanism?

I don’t know. I was simply responding to John’s claim that Christian morality made scarcely any difference and that sex in Christian marriages fizzles after seven years (dunno where he got that). I was repeating the studies I have seen many times through the years that this isn’t the case; quite the contrary.

For example, there is related research that shows how cohabitation before marriage is statistically more likely to coincide with later divorces than ton lower them (as the fallacious “try before you buy” sexual outlook would have us believe). I can’t help it that the studies back up traditional Christian morality. They show what they show, whatever any of us may think about the results.

* * *

In my baptist upbringing we was always told that sex is naughty, dirty, etc. Whenever people were kissing on TV, we’d have to cover our eyes. After being told that your whole life, you believe it. Then all of a sudden on your wedding night, something formerly so bad becomes something you are supposed to share with your life partner. That’s really messed up.

Yes it is. It’s asinine, stupid, and idiotic in the extreme. I was never taught these ridiculous things in the circles I moved in (which incorporate many parts of Christianity).

It’s not Christian or biblical teaching, which holds that sex is good and great, and was created by God for procreation and pleasure, but under certain limited conditions, due to the human propensity for selfishness and lust and destructive tendencies.

To merely limit something is not to equate it with wickedness. No one thinks hot dogs are wicked because everyone should limit how many they eat at a time. Conversely, no one argues that kissing is a good thing and so consequently sets out to kiss every female in a stadium of 40,000.

There are limits to every good thing. Sex is no exception. Human experience has shown that faithful monogamy works best. If you doubt this, then go cheat on your husband or wife and see how they feel about it. It’s instinctive; innate. We all feel this. Yet Christians get a bum rap because we teach that sensible limits to sexual expression are binding, and their violation sin.

But in any event, the real Christian teaching on sex is not what these clowns you grew up with teach. Every belief system (including atheism) has its fringe elements and corrupters, too.

* * *

Of course there are all sorts of reason for happy (and bad) marriages. I’ve always been an advocate of multiple causation for most things. I was responding to John’s running-down of the Christian marriage ethic, as if it makes no difference. I didn’t claim that no one besides Christians could possibly have a happy marriage.

* * *

Sacred implies that it is some sort of gift from God, overriding the biological basis for our sex lives. It is also used to coerce women (and men as well,

Yeah, right. Okay, try this with your wife (if you’re married): tell her that you think sex has no higher ontological meaning or mystical essence of uniting people and making them feel an indescribable oneness (let alone sacredness). Rather, it is simply a biological need and she serves as a convenient biological conduit to fulfill your need to have nerve endings feel wonderful and to give you physical pleasure.

That’s all it means. It has no meaning beyond that. See how well that goes over.

Now I happen to think that if these feelings are so strong and well-nigh universal, that there truly is some basis for them besides mere coincidence or supposed social conditioning.

We’ve had now 40 years of the sexual revolution and 200-300 years of increasing secularization of western civilization, but I see no sign of human nature changing, or acceptance of promiscuity and so forth. Women still feel exactly the same as they always have. Men, too, are just as hurt by adultery as they always were.

Promiscuity and sexual conquest may be glorified in male locker rooms or basketball courts or when women are acting ridiculous and going to see the Foxy Frenchmen or a Brad Pitt movie or something, but at ground level it is still as ugly and as dreaded as ever.

Christianity is trying to spare people tremendous pain by enforcing the rules of common sense morality. You would think that people could figure out just from reason and experience that there is something to this: that Christians and other “traditional” religions were onto something profound and right, and have some wisdom to give to humanity. But the sexual drive and secular societal conditioning is far too strong for many people to get over. So they go and make the same mistakes. And they mock Christian values because, in my opinion, they know down deep that they are right, but find them difficult to live by.

That’s why G. K. Chesterton famously said: “Christianity has not been tried and found wanting; it has been found difficult and left untried.”

* * *

But the act of having sex outside of marriage is not in itself immoral, does not make one impure, does not damage any future marriage(s) . . .

Ah, but it does do damage; this is what you don’t understand. Setting traditional Christian sexual morality aside for a moment (it’s not required for my argument here to succeed), there are known consequences to lots of premarital sex and cohabitation. It tends to lead to (strictly based on scientifically-controlled polling) less stable marriages, more sexual dissatisfaction and a higher likelihood of divorce.

This is almost my entire present point. The mounting sociological, psychological, societal, and experiential evidence is great testimony that traditional sexual morality works best: even for those aspects that all you sexual libertines [by this I did not mean to imply all atheists: only those who recognized themselves in the description] pride yourself on for being so superior to us fuddy-dud, killjoy, puritanical Christians: like long-term enjoyment of sex.

Disagree with him on any part of his recipe for marital perfection, and you’re a “sexual libertine”.

Is there any reason we shouldn’t categorically dismiss you as an idiot from here on out?

Christian morality: lived out consistently, with understanding and dependence on God for the grace to carry it out, works. It works because it is true (not the opposite, or mere pragmatism). If you want a happy marriage, be very selective, keep your pants on till marriage, find a mate who feels the same way, be sure you are temperamentally compatible (and as many other ways as possible), and that is the recipe for success.

In other words, “Be perfect! Like Dave!”

Okay Dave, find me one of these studies you’re not citing which shows that no marriage in history in which both partners remained virginal until their wedding day has ever ended in divorce, and that no marriage in history in which at least one partner had at least one premarital sexual experience has ever not ended in divorce, and maybe we’ll take your bizarre notions about human relationships seriously. Until then, you just sound like a weirdo with some major sexual hangups to us. But then, we’re all libertines, so that figures, eh?

Of course it has to be consistently lived. One could do all that and later, someone falls into lust or irresponsibility or substance abuse, or someone has a serious mental breakdown, and then factors other than Christian influence are introduced and everything can change. But the traditional morality by itself can only be a positive force for lasting, fulfilling relationships.

* * *

So explain why Christians get divorced more. You’re avoiding this like a kid who doesn’t want to brush his teeth.

Hardly; I already answered it; one has to control for the variable of how vigorous and serious the commitment to Christianity is: then the divorce rates go WAY down.

These ideas are hardly unique to Christianity, Dave.

Didn’t say they were, so this is neither here nor there.

Try to talk to your wife or husband about numerous sexual conquests or escapades before you met; see how well that goes over.

Clearly no sensible person would, Dave. Most adults go into a monogamous relationship with the understanding that their new partner has a history, and has had previous partners. If you’re starting a new relationship with someone, why would you talk about past relationships? You clearly don’t have a good grasp of how people outside your little circle conduct relationships,

That had nothing to do with my line there, which was rhetorical and challenging to non-Christian sexual mores and ethics.

I was taking the question a step further: not dwelling on the obvious, as you want to do, making out that I am some backwoods naive simpleton. I was at least as sexually liberal in my past as many of you are. I’ve been around the block. I’ve lived and believed all that nonsense.

So what I’m doing is asking, “why is this a problem if in fact, promiscuity and lots of free sex is such a good, wonderful thing? Why is it that it can potentially become a problem in later marriages, and it is a no-no subject if it is so wonderful? Why is it that we all have that drive to be the lone loved one of our mates, yet at the same time liberal sexual morality does everything it can to undermine that goal, by promoting free, irresponsible sexuality?”

and like many religionists you have a skewed, black-or-white version of the world in which everyone exists at the end of one of two extremes. Here, you’re either a blissfully happy monogamously married sexual saint, or a wild and uncontrollable libertine into wife-swapping and sex with anything that moves. You don’t seem to have much experience with actual, you know, people.

Good grief. It just never ends, does it? It doesn’t matter what we Christians argue; how nuanced we present things; how many times we make clear that we don’t think all atheists are wicked and evil; you’ll still accuse of the same idiotic attitude.

Some Christians hold to this position, but they are in the minority, and I am not among them, as I repeat till I’m blue in the face around here. But you seem new, so it’s the same old nonsense: you meet a Christian and assume he is exactly like the fundamentalist wacko stereotype that does exist, but which is not representative at all of Christianity as a whole. I ain’t a fundamentalist; never have been. I was raised in a liberal Methodist home, became a secularist for ten years, then an evangelical Protestant, and then a Catholic. At no time was I anything like a “fundamentalist.”

You clearly don’t even understand my argument, because (typically of a certain kind of atheist) you casually assume that I am an idiot who lives in a naive Christian bubble. If you could get past all your stereotypes, I think you’d discover that we actually have a lot more in common than you imagine. I know it’s tough but I believe you can do it. You have it in you. You just need a little encouragement to do better.

And yet people who adhere to this belief system have less success with their marriages than people who don’t. Ahh, the cognitive dissonance. If Dave won’t address it, maybe it will go away.

I already did. In charity, I will assume that you simply didn’t read my post where I stated that.

Just keep telling stories about crazy promiscuous rock stars as if that proves a point. Also, keep trotting out false choices and either-or fallacies like this one: . . . Again, you seem to have little experience with how men and women actually interact sexually, outside of your own marriage that is.

That’s untrue, as already explained. But even if I lived in Antarctica and never saw a woman in my life, that wouldn’t change the fact of scientific polling data, which is what it is regardless of the past sexual history and understanding or lack thereof, of the person who presents it.

The more you keep cheerleading for the alleged moral superiority of your belief system the more it sounds like you’re doing so in an effort to hide from uncomfortable facts. I believe it’s called “whistling past the graveyard”, or in this case, “bedroom”.

Right. Why is it that I wrote in my most recent published book, The Catholic Verses (look it up on Amazon): “[D]ivorce rates among Evangelical protestants are virtually as high as that of the general public” (p. 205)?

The only ignoring going on here is your butchery or confused noncomprehension of my argument.

Do you agree with the statement that all instances of divorce and remarriage constitute adultery?

Of course not. That’s why we Catholics have annulments to look into what the situation was, that may have been a serious mitigating circumstances.

Do you believe wives should always be submissive and accept an inferior role to that of their husbands?

The same Paul who taught that also taught (in the verse just before): “Be subject to one another out of reverence for Christ” (Eph 5:21-22), and three verses later that the husband should love his wife the way that “Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her.” Being willing to be crucified for someone else doesn’t exactly strike me as a totally dominant superior-slave relationship. It is not at all, rightly-understood. I’ve never forced my wife to do anything. We decide things jointly.

And do you agree with Paul that ultimately, sex is just a really really bad thing to do,

I don’t agree, because Paul never taught this. It’s a gross distortion; typical of atheist “exegesis.”

but people should marry anyway, only to avoid going to hell for fornication?

Lust is not the same thing as sex. Premarital sex is different from married sex. The same act can be good or bad depending on circumstances. You think not? Okay, then why is rape wrong? Why would incest be wrong, or sex with an eight-year-old. That’s all the same act, but it is wrong in one instance and right in others. We simply say sex outside of marriage is another time that sex is immoral.

I don’t see much “common sense” in that “morality”.

It would help considerably if you actually understood it in the first place, rather than lash out at it before you even know what the opposing view holds. It’s easy for me, on the other hand, to critique the usual secular view of sex, because I used to hold it myself. Nothing like firsthand experience to make one understand something.

* * *

Scientific Findings Supporting The Above Arguments and the Efficacy of Traditional Christian Morality


Couples who live together before marriage are more likely to divorce than couples who do not. See:

Guarting-Gibbs, P.A., “The Institutionalization of Pre-Marital Cohabitation: Estimates from marriage license applications, 1970 and 1980,” Journal of Marriage and the Family, 48 (1986): 2, pp. 423-433.

Premarital cohabitation tends to lead to reduced sexual exclusivity in marriage. See:

Forste, R., and Tanfer, K., “Sexual Exclusivity among Dating, Cohabiting and Married Women,” Journal of Marriage and the Family, 58 (1996): 1, pp. 33-47.

Many more couples live together prior to marriage than in the past – recent estimates are in the range of 60+% (Stanley and Markman, 1997; Bumpass and Sweet, 1991). These couples are less likely to stay married, probably mostly due to the fact that they are less conservative about marriage and divorce in the first place.

Bumpass, L.L, and Sweet, J.A. (1991) The Role of Cohabitation in Declining Rates of Marriage. Journal of Marriage and the Family, 53, 913-927. [cf. Stanley, S.M., and Markman, H.J. (1997) Marriage in the 90s: A Nationwide Random Phone Survey. Denver, Colorado: PREP, Inc.]
*
What is this journal? Well, on a web page describing it [now defunct], it says this:

The Journal of Marriage and the Family (JMF), published by the National Council on Family Relations, is the leading research journal in the family field and has been so for over sixty years. JMF features original research and theory, research interpretation and reviews, and critical discussion concerning all aspects of marriage, other forms of close relationships, and families. The Journal also publishes book reviews.

Contributors to JMF come from a diversity of fields including anthropology, demography, economics, history, psychology, and sociology, as well as interdisciplinary fields such as human development and family sciences. JMFpublishes original theory and research using the variety of methods reflective of the full range of social sciences, including quantitative, qualitative, and multimethod designs. Integrative reviews as well as reports on methodological and statistical advances are also welcome.

[my own major was sociology, with a minor in psychology]

* * *

In a Primetime Live Poll: American Sex Survey (10-21-04), we learn:

. . . most weekly churchgoers say premarital sex and homosexuality are not acceptable; most infrequent attenders hold the opposite view. Ten percent of weekly churchgoers say sex without an emotional attachment is acceptable; it’s 36 percent among the unchurched.

. . . Weekly churchgoers are as satisfied as the unchurched with their sex lives, and 10 points more likely to be very satisfied with their marriage or relationship.

. . . Northeasterners and Westerners are more apt to call themselves adventurous sexually and to say homosexuality is OK. And when it comes to being very satisfied with their sex lives, only in the Midwest does a majority give the thumbs up.

Political ideology follows a similar pattern as religious observance — like weekly churchgoers, conservatives are more conservative sexually, liberals less so. That makes sense, not least because conservatives are more frequent churchgoers.
Conservatives are far less likely to accept premarital sex or homosexuality, and half as likely as liberals to say sex without an emotional attachment is OK. They’re less apt to have had rebound sex, to call themselves sexually adventurous, to watch sexually explicit movies, to discuss their fantasies, to have had sex outdoors, to have had sex on a first date or to have visited a porn site. At the same time, conservatives are slightly more likely than others to be very satisfied with their relationship and sex lives. Liberals, for their part, are more apt to be sexually adventurous.

. . . Republicans are around 10 points more likely than Democrats to think about sex daily, to be very satisfied with their marriages and sex lives and to wear something sexy to spice things up;

. . . This ABC News “Primetime Live” survey was conducted by telephone, by female interviewers only, Aug. 2-9, 2004, among a random national sample of 1,501 adults. The results have a 2.5-point error margin for all respondents; as in any poll, sampling error is higher for subgroups. Sampling, data collection and tabulation by TNS of Horsham, Pa.


Now For Some Good News, Frederica Mathewes-Green, First Things, Aug/Sep 1997, 20-23:

While rising numbers of teens are saying no to sex, the most telling evidence against “liberation” comes from the kids who said yes. A survey published in the American Journal of Preventive Medicine in 1991 asked sexually experienced inner-city junior and senior high students what they thought was the ideal age to begin having sex: 83 percent suggested ages older than they had been. Twenty-five percent of these sexually experienced kids also said that they believe sex before marriage is wrong. (This point of view has continued to grow in popularity. The UCLA Higher Education Research Institute surveys 250,000 new college freshmen every year. In 1987, 52 percent of the students said that casual sex was acceptable; only 42 percent of the 1996 class agrees.)

In the 1994 Roper survey cited above, 62 percent of sexually experienced girls, and 54 percent of all experienced high schoolers, said they “should have waited.” And, most poignant, a study published in a 1990 issue of Family Planning Perspectives described a questionnaire distributed to one thousand sexually active girls, asking them to check off which item they wanted more information about. Eighty-four percent checked “how to say no without hurting the other person’s feelings.”

* * *

Mahoney, A., Pargament, K.I., Jewell, T., Swank, A.B., Scott, E., Emery, E.,
and Rye, M. (1999). Marriage and the spiritual realm: The role of proximal
and distal religious constructs in marital functioning. Journal of Family
Psychology, 13 (3), 321-338.

Abstract: Ninety-seven couples completed questionnaires about their
involvement in joint religious activities and perceptions regarding the
sanctification of marriage, including perceived sacred qualities of marriage
and beliefs about the manifestation of God in marriage. In contrast to
individual religiousness and religious homogamy (distal religious
constructs), these proximal religious variables directly reflect an
integration of religion and marriage, and were consistently associated with
greater global marital adjustment, more perceived benefits from marriage,
decreased marital conflict, more verbal collaboration, and less use of
verbal aggression and stalemate to discuss disagreements for both wives and
husbands. The proximal measures also added substantial unique variance (R2
.08-.49) to specific aspects of marital functioning after controlling
demographic factors and distal religious variables in hierarchical regression analyses.

* * *

Clarification: Barna Research Group on what self-described “born again” Christians believe:

I found a Barna page [link defunct]with the following comment:

“More than four out of five Americans claim to be Christian and half as many can be classified as born again Christians. Nine out of ten adults own a Bible. Most adults read the Bible during the year and a huge majority claims they know all of the basic teachings of the Bible. How, then, can most people say Satan does not exist, that the Holy Spirit is merely a symbol, that eternal peace with God can be earned through good works, and that truth can only be understood through the lens of reason and experience? How can a plurality of our citizens contend that Jesus committed sins and that the Bible, Koran and Book of Mormon all teach the same truths?”

And on another Barna web page [link defunct]:

“Born again Christians” were defined in these surveys as people who said they have made a personal commitment to Jesus Christ that is still important in their life today and who also indicated they believe that when they die they will go to Heaven because they had confessed their sins and had accepted Jesus Christ as their savior. Respondents were not asked to describe themselves as “born again” or if they considered themselves to be “born again.”

“Evangelicals” are a subset of born again Christians in Barna surveys. In addition to meeting the born again criteria, evangelicals also meet seven other conditions. Those include saying their faith is very important in their life today; believing they have a personal responsibility to share their religious beliefs about Christ with non-Christians; believing that Satan exists; believing that eternal salvation is possible only through grace, not works; believing that Jesus Christ lived a sinless life on earth; and describing God as the all-knowing, all-powerful, perfect deity who created the universe and still rules it today. Being classified as an evangelical has no relationship to church attendance or the denominational affiliation of the church they attend. Respondents were not asked to describe themselves as “evangelical.”

And yet another [link defunct]:

“A minority of born again adults (44%) and an even smaller proportion of born again teenagers (9%) are certain of the existence of absolute moral truth.

“. . . Only 1% of all born again adults firmly concurred with each of 13 basic belief statements from the Bible.

” . . . Born again Christians spend seven times as much time on entertainment as they do on spiritual activities.”

The labels may be, as you say, “ethnic”, or in the case of the diverse ethnic groups comprising Protestantism, the labels may represent a “generational” identity. My personal crusade is to chase down (or do it myself) research which has gone beyond categorization by these generic labels which seem to be losing their former meaning, to tease out specific beliefs and “spiritual disciplines” related to mature, committed faith, which may prove to be better predictors (as far as the religious variable is concerned) of enduring marriage and/or divorce. ]

Divorce, American-StyleScientific American, March, 1999:

The reasons for the marked regional disparities are not definitively known, but they probably reflect several factors, including church membership, which may reinforce marriage ties. Not surprisingly, therefore, Florida and most of the western states, where church membership is low, have a higher proportion of divorced people. Migration may contribute to the high proportion of divorced people in the West and Florida, which have a larger proportion of peripatetic individuals than other areas have. The broad swath of counties stretching from North Dakota and Wisconsin down to the Rio Grande is an area with few divorced people, which might be expected in view of high church membership and the relatively few migrants to this area. The low prevalence of divorce in Virginia, North Carolina and South Carolina may stem in part from fairly high church attendance.

Non-US Divorce Rates: According to the report “Profiling Canada’s Families III”, by The Vanier Institute of the Family, unmarried cohabiting couples are four times more likely to break up than married couples. “CANADIAN TREND INCLUDES FEWER LEGAL MARRIAGES” CTV.ca News Staff, NOV 29, 2004. Cited in a posting on the Smart Marriages Listserv Nov. 29, 2004 [link defunct].

Cohabitation Data: 
There is a higher risk, 40 to 85%, of divorce between couples cohabiting before marriage than couples waiting until after marriage to share a home together. (Bumpass and Sweet 1995; Hall and Zhao 1995; Bracher, Stantow, Morgan and Russell 1993; DeMaris and Rao 1992 and Glen 1990) Cited in a posting on the Smart Marriages Listserv, Sep 28, 2004 [link defunct].

* * *

“The Joy of Christian Sex,” Sheila Wray Gregoire [link defunct]:

A large-scale study of 1,100 American adults by the Family Research Council found that 72% of married people who attended church weekly reported being “very satisfied” with their sex lives, thirty points higher than their unmarried counterparts, and thirteen points higher than other marrieds. In these days when we are being bombarded with attacks for our stance on sexuality, perhaps it’s time to remind ourselves why sex, in the Christian context, can be so wonderful.

Christian Sex is Holistic 

One of the best things about the Christian view of sex is that it recognizes that we’re more than lizards. In popular culture, on the other hand, physical pleasure trumps all, reducing sex to something merely instinctual. By doing this, people lose out on the more profound possibilities sex offers to express love, commitment, and even a mystical union. The 1993 Janus Survey on Sexuality found that a key ingredient in religious people’s more satisfying sex lives was that they did associate these spiritual and emotional components with sex far more than other respondents did. Indeed, there’s a reason God calls us his bride – a very sexual image – and and understanding that reason helps us also understand those survey results.

* * *

Sex: What Do Women (and men) Really Want?, Theresa Notare:

Science also sheds light on our emotional well being. Sociological research shows that since the 1960s there has been a steady increase in non-marital sexual activity in Western developed countries. In 1998, the National Opinion Research Center of the University of Chicago reported an average of 7.8 sexual partners after the age of 18 – an increase over the 1990 level of 7.0 partners – but significantly lower than the 9.5 partners mean reported in 1996.8 In May 2003, the Kaiser Family Foundation reported that one in five teens has sex before age 15, 37% between the ages of 15 and 17, and 80% between the ages of 18 and 24.9

Today it is estimated that half of newly married couples cohabited prior to marriage. In the 2000 Census, there were 5.5 million cohabiting unmarried couples (up from 3.2 million in 1990).10

Given these facts, are people happier? Does this behavior aid growth in emotional or sexual maturity? Does it make people more generous or better able to persevere in difficult situations? What impact does this behavior have on marriage and family life? Are those who have multiple sexual partners better able to form lasting relationships? Better prepared to put the needs of loved ones above their own desires? Research provides answers to many of these questions.11

Over 25 percent of sexually active teenage girls 14-17 report being depressed all, most or “a lot” of the time, a rate of depression more than three times that of teenage girls who are not sexually active (7.7 percent).12 Sexually active boys 14-17 report being depressed all, most or a lot of the time at a rate 2 times greater than boys who are not sexually active (8.3 percent vs. 3.4 percent). “A full 14.3 percent of girls who are sexually active report having attempted suicide [in the past 12 months]. By contrast, only 5.1 percent of sexually inactive girls have attempted suicide.”13 The contrast between sexually active boys (6.0 percent of whom attempted suicide in the past 12 months) and boys who were not sexually active (0.7 percent) is even greater – almost 8 times higher. Do teens regret having become sexually active? 72% of sexually active girls and 55% of sexually active boys said they wished they had waited longer before starting to be sexually active.14

And a 2002 study on the attitude of young men toward marriage is telling. Included in the top ten reported reasons why men won’t commit to marriage are: “they can get sex without marriage,” “they fear that marriage will require too many changes and compromises,” “they want a house before they get a wife,” and “they want to enjoy single life as long as they can.”15 Such reasons lend support to the belief that non-marital sexual activity fosters immaturity and materialism.

Current sociological research overwhelmingly demonstrates “strong correlations between the practices of premarital sex and/or cohabitation and divorce.”16 Some of the more prominent studies:

  • As early as 1974 the correlation between premarital sex and divorce was known. Robert Athanasiou and Richard Sarkin. “Premarital sexual behavior and postmarital adjustment,” Archives of Sexual Behavior 3 (May 1974).
  • A 1991 study suggested a “relatively strong positive relationship between premarital sex and divorce.” Joan Kahn and Kathryn London. “Premarital Sex and the Risk of Divorce,” Journal of Marriage and the Family 53 (1991):845-55.
  • In May 2003, a study concluded that women who had their first sexual experience before marriage with partners other than the man they eventually marry, are about 34% more likely to experience divorce than women who did not. This increased risk is not present with women whose only premarital sex involved the man they married. This study also notes that cohabitation is considered to be “one of the most robust predictors of marital dissolution that has appeared in the literature.” Jay Teachmen. “Premarital Sex, Premarital Cohabitation, and the Risk of Subsequent Marital Dissolution Among Women,” Journal of Marriage and Family 65 (May 2003).

Bottom line? It seems safe to say that sex outside of marriage causes emotional harm and also seems to harm marriage and the family. Ultimately, for the emotional health of the individual, the family and society itself, only married couples should engage in sexual intercourse.

Sources:

8. T. Smith, National Opinion Research Center, University of Chicago, American Sexual Behavior: Trends, Socio-Demographic Differences, and Risk Behavior, available at http://cloud9.norc.uchicago.edu/dlib/t-25.htm.

9. Kaiser Family Foundation. National Survey of Adolescents and Young Adults: Sexual Health Knowledge, Attitudes and Experiences, 15 (May 2003) available at www.kff.org, (Last visited August 4, 2003); Quoted by Helen Alvaré, “Saying ‘Yes’ Before Saying ‘I Do’: Premarital Sex and Cohabitation as a Piece of the Divorce Puzzle,” p. 21, paper to be published in the Journal of the University of Notre Dame School of Law. “Married-Couple and Unmarried-Partner Households: 2000,” Census 2000 Special Reports, Feb. 2003.

10. J. Fields and L. M. Casper. “America’s Families and Living Arrangements: March 2000.” Current Population Reports, P20-537, p. 12. Quoted by Alvaré, p. 23.

11. For a summary of classic research and links to studies, see the web sites of the Heritage Foundation, www.heritage.org ; Family Research Council, www.frc.org ; The National Marriage Project, http://marriage.rutgers.edu.

12. R. Rector et al., Sexually Active Teenagers are More Likely to Be Depressed and to Attempt Suicide. A Report from the Heritage Center for Data Analysis, June 2002.

13. Id.

14. Id., citing National Campaign to Prevent Teen Pregnancy, June 2000.

15. B. Whitehead and D. Popenoe. The State of Our Unions, Why Men Won’t Commit.Exploring Young Men’s Attitudes About Sex, Dating and Marriage. The National Marriage Project, Rutgers University, 2002. Available from http://marriage.rutgers.edu/TEXTSOOU2002.htm

16. See note 6, Alvare, p. 25. [D.T. Fleming et al. “Herpes simplex virus type 2 in the United States, 1976 to 1994.” New England Journal of Medicine 1997: 337: 1105-1111.]

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(originally 12-8-06)

Photo credit: Image by Tony Guyton (1-10-15) [Flickr / CC BY 2.0 license]

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