2019-02-21T22:38:35-04:00

Fairy

Take the Fair Face of Woman, and Gently Suspending, With Butterflies, Flowers, and Jewels Attending, Thus Your Fairy is Made of Most Beautiful Things, by  Sophie Gengembre Anderson (1823-1903) [public domain / Wikimedia Commons]

* * *

This took place in the combox for my post, “Fairies, Atheism, God, & Ad Populum Fallacy.” The words of TheMarsCydonia will be in blue.

* * * * *

P1. A position for which serious thinker have given consideration cannot be blithely dismissed.
P2. Holding a position for which serious thinker have given consideration is reasonable.
P3. Serious thinkers have given consideration to theism
C. Therefore, theism cannot be blithely dismissed and is reasonable (from p1-3).

You have spent two blog posts arguing for the above so I have little doubt you agree that the premises and therefore the conclusion are sound (I could be mistaken of course).

So the unanswered question remains, does argument apply to atheism?

P1. A position for which serious thinker have given consideration cannot be blithely dismissed.
P2. Holding a position for which serious thinker have given consideration is reasonable.
P3. Serious thinkers have given consideration to atheism
C. Therefore, atheism cannot be blithely dismissed and is reasonable (from p1-3).

Yep. I think atheism should be given serious consideration (which is why I have written a lot about it and have debated many atheists). It’s rational (in a broad sense), and atheists are generally very sharp and thoughtful people, but it starts from false premises, which is the problem. The castle is only as good as its foundation.

I was making the argument, of course, as to how belief in God is to be distinguished from belief in the tooth fairy and other imaginary figures, which is what is thrown at us.

And so I came up with the notion that many many great thinkers and philosophers have accepted and built up theism and theology, whereas there is no “tooth fairyology” or “leprechaunology.”

I’ve also maintained for many years that the problem of evil is the most serious objection to Christianity, and it is one of the primary atheist objections. So it is a serious objection from a serious position, that should be given serious consideration (and I have done so, with many treatments of it).

But don’t you think that the “Santa Claus argument” is simply a reductio ad absurdum variation of a lack of evidence argument? That saying comparing Santa Claus, feathered fishes, tooth fairy, etc. with God is invalid “because serious thinkers” is red herring that avoids actually answering the soundness of the premises?

Because really, what the “santa claus argument” is a “lack of sound justification argument”. And the aim is not to disprove the existence of god but to demonstrate that it is reasonable for atheists to withhold belief in god:

P1. It is reasonable to withhold acceptance of a position for which you have no sound justification for. 
P2. Belief in the existence of Santa Claus has no sound justification
C. Therefore, it is reasonable to withhold acceptance of a position of belief the existence of in Santa Claus.

The “Santa/Tooth Fairy/etc.” is a comparison meant to use something for which theists will also agree with. I doubt theists (in general) will dispute P1 and P2 are sound and therefore the conclusion is sound.

The problem is when you flip the argument to another subject: God.

P1. It is reasonable to withhold acceptance of a position you have no sound justification for. 
P2. Belief in the existence of God has no sound justification
C. Therefore, it is reasonable to withhold acceptance of a position of belief in the existence of God

This explains why atheists come to that conclusion. Theists then should have to explain why premise 2 is unsound. Saying “a lot of serious thinkers disagree with premises 2” doesn’t show that premise 2 is unsound, it just burden shifts the responsibility to the “serious thinkers”.

And all of the above concerns theism, not christianity. The problem of evil may be an objection to the existence with the characteristics of the classical christian god (and I agree that is a considerable problem) but not to a god “in general” (a deistic god or a god that is not omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent and omnibenevolent).

The “Santa Claus argument” is not an argument against a particular and specific god but against the belief (and not the existence) in any god “in general”.

And the only foundation my atheism has is: “I have not been presented a convincing case (which means a sound case) that a god exist”. It has not other premise. If I could convince myself that a god exist without the case being sound we wouldn’t be having this conversation and I would still be a catholic.

Unfortunately there came a time when I realized that what I wished to be true and what I knew to be true were two different things and I could no longer pass the first as the second. In regards to Santa Claus, I made that realization when I was a kid. When it came to God it took me decades more.

Of course we deny that there is no evidence or justification or warrant for our beliefs. I compiled the various different arguments in hundreds of links, so people like you can peruse them if you wish. I have collected seven lengthy collections of links:

Cosmological Argument for God (Resources)

Teleological (Design) Argument for God (Resources) 

Ontological Argument for God (Resources) 

15 Theistic Arguments (Copious Resources)

Science and Christianity (Copious Resources)

Atheism & Atheology (Copious Resources)

God: Historical Arguments (Copious Resources) 

The evidences and arguments are there for anyone who wishes to read them. But you can bring the horse to water; you can’t make it drink.

When the atheist claims there is no evidence whatsoever and no reason to be a Christian, then I produce this.

If they want to dismiss it all as of no import, they may. God gives them free will to do so if they so choose. The consequences will be dire, but they have the freedom.

All this does not nothing to really address the issue raised in my previous comment Mr. Armstrong:

Is the “Santa Claus argument” a valid argument for atheists to explain why they do not believe? 

No. I don’t consider it serious argumentation. It is more along the lines of mere mockery and derisive dismissal. Hence, we see the unsavory accompanying attitudes (quite often) among those who utilize it.

Finding it mocking does nothing to invalidate the soundness of an argument. If that is the case, your whole “faith of atomism” post suffers from the same.

[not at all. See that post of mine, which is a true, legitimate reductio ad absurdum and turning the tables argument, with use of sarcasm and parody, and my lengthy defense of it against attacks and widespread miscomprehensions]

* * * 

Is saying “serious thinkers have given consideration to” a proper rebuttal to it?

Yes. Like I said, if there were well-established academic fields of “tooth fairyology” or “leprechaunology” then the argument might have some weight. But since there are not . . .

I haven’t seen you respond to my point that is a red herring. Saying “other people disagree with the premise” does nothing the invalidate the premise. It just shifts the burden to someone else.

I’ll say again what I have stated over and over: the presence of a long and noble history of theistic thought among philosophers goes to show (I think) that theism as a worldview is vastly different in kind from “tooth fairyism” and “leprechaunism” (infinitely more substantiated academically and philosophically); not that theism is true (the latter would be the ad populum fallacy). Unless you grasp what I am dealing with and specifically what I am replying to when I make an argument, you won’t grasp the argument, because you have removed it from context. This is part of the reason why I refused to reply to your long counter-reply, because it had several frustrating errors of this sort, and I simply didn’t have the patience. I’m painstakingly careful and minute in argumentation, and many times, thoughts that you assumed were in my head or reasoning in making a particular argument had nothing whatsoever to do with it; never crossed my mind.

* * *

Its true that there remains some “leap of faith” with regard to any and all theistic arguments. They’re not airtight, but that is of small concern, since very few arguments of any sort or type are airtight.

I would say that the cosmological argument is strong and plausible because there seems to be no plausible alternative [i.e., explanation of the origin of the universe]. It’s by far the most plausible of the options available. And that makes it a strong argument.

* * * 

The “is there evidence” is another question. Of course theists will say there is evidence. As you yourself said “95% or more of Christians are not convinced because of intellectual arguments” but once that’s pointed out to them, they will try to justify holding to their beliefs by claiming evidence or justification.

People are very good at finding intellectual arguments for conclusions they reached for non-intellectual reasons. The question then becomes, are those intellectual reasons sound?

Yes, but there is nothing necessarily wrong, fallacious, or improper about that. We all do that all the time, regarding things we don’t fully understand.

I agree, which is why there was this part too that you did not quote: “The question then becomes, are those intellectual reasons sound?”

I believe that when I turn on a light switch, that a light bulb will come on. In a remote sense, it’s a sort of faith. I may not know the ins and outs of electricity. If I learned those, I could later explain what I previously perceived on a more elementary level.

Piece of advice Mr. Armstrong, no atheists (generalization) takes that kind of equivalence seriously. I recommend avoid equating faith in a god with faith that the light will turn on when flipping a light switch.

Of course I didn’t do that (once again you are out to sea with one of my many analogies).

No analogy is perfect, of course, but this one was to believing in things we don’t fully understand, and later perhaps giving more intellectual reasons for it (replying directly to your statement); not an utter equation of “faith in God” with “faith in electricity”: which is ridiculous and not an “argument” I would ever advance.

* * * 

Examples are legion. We trust our senses for giving us accurate information about the external world. Indeed, all of science is built upon this initial premise.

We all do that naturally. A baby can do it. Does that mean it’s not valid or trustworthy or “serious” until and unless we can fully explain it? Clearly not.

It’s only recently, in fact, that we have advanced in neuroscience to the extent that we can actually explain the particular processes that go into sight and storage of such information obtained by sight into our brains.

But we all had trusted our eyesight (and other senses) all those years before we had technical explanations of it. We had created modern science before we could “prove” all the ins and outs of sensory perception.

I have yet to meet any which is why I am still an atheist. Either you are convinced by the arguments or you are not. I find the arguments unconvincing because I find them unsound.

Take the cosmological argument. Even if all its premises were sound (they are not), it still is a leap to go from “there is an uncaused cause” to “that cause is God” as Thomas of Aquinas did.

I will actually be doing a presentation next week on theological arguments (cosmological, teleological, ontological and moral) and why they are not convincing.

* * *

I don’t think the errors are coming from where you think they are. It may be me but it seems that your “it’s more substantiated academically and philosophically” actually has little to do with the “Santa Claus argument”.

P1. It is reasonable to withhold acceptance of a position for which you have no sound justification for. 
P2. Belief in the existence of Santa Claus has no sound justification
C1. Therefore, it is reasonable to withhold acceptance of a position of belief the existence of in Santa Claus.

This you agree with.

pA. It is reasonable to withhold acceptance of a position you have no sound justification for. 
pB. Belief in the existence of God has no sound justification
cA. Therefore, it is reasonable to withhold acceptance of a position of belief in the existence of God

This you do not.

I unfortunately do not see how you support the second opinion. I’ll concede that to you, I really do not understand.

Of course I completely deny pB. The justification I would give is summarized in all of the theistic arguments I have compiled [see the list of seven links-posts above] (which cannot be compiled to defend Santa Claus, which was my initial point). I think those provide plenty of justification and warrant for theism and Christianity.

Also, when I say “reasonable” I’m not using it as a synonym for “true.” Remember, above, I stated that I thought atheism was reasonable, but I certainly don’t think it is true or even plausible.

In other words, I’m saying that it is a reasonable viewpoint (very broadly speaking) that can be argued with / by means of serious rational arguments, as opposed to pure irrationality. I deny several of its premises, and therefore, its conclusions.

This is what I strive to get atheists to see regarding Christianity. We utilize reason; we love reason; we love science; we love evidence. We don’t espouse blind faith, but rather, a rationally informed faith, not inconsistent at all with either reason or science. We’re not against any of those good things. We simply come to different conclusions than atheists do.

Yet it seems that the majority of atheists regard us as purely irrational, gullible, infantile. Many Christians think that of atheists, or that they are also invariably evil and wicked.

Both attitudes are dead wrong.

2018-06-16T15:55:38-04:00

Hitchens

Christopher Hitchens (1949-2011): one of the most famous of the “new atheists”; image by Surian Soosay (12-16-11) [Flickr / CC BY 2.0 license]

* * * * *

Alphabetical by Author

 

ATHEISM, CRITIQUES OF 

Atheist Demands for “Empirical” Proofs of God (Dave Armstrong, 2015)

Atheism: More Rational & Scientific than Christianity? (Dave Armstrong, 2015)

On Critiquing Atheist “Deconversion” Stories (Dave Armstrong, 2015)

The Atheist Obsession with Insulting Christians (Dave Armstrong, 2015)

Atheism: the Faith of “Atomism” (Dave Armstrong, 2015)

The Atheism of the Gaps (Stephen M. Barr, 1995)

The Presumptuousness of Atheism (Paul Copan, 1997)

Cosmology – A Religion for Atheists? [Hawking] (William Lane Craig)

Theistic Critiques Of Atheism (William Lane Craig, 2007)

Is Unbelief Culpable? (William Lane Craig, 2010)

Straw men and terracotta armies [atheists & the cosmological argument] (Edward Feser, 2009)

Grow up or shut up [atheists & the cosmological argument] (Edward Feser, 2011)

The road from atheism (Edward Feser, 2012)

Clarke on the stock caricature of First Cause arguments  [atheists & the cosmological argument] (Edward Feser, 2014)

Repressed Knowledge of God (+ Part II) (Edward Feser, 2015)

There’s no such thing as “natural atheology” (Edward Feser, 2015)

My Pilgrimage from Atheism to Theism: A Discussion between Antony Flew and Gary Habermas (2004)

Answer to an Atheist: Are Humans Nothing More Than Bodies? (Hank Hanegraaff, 2000)

Christianity and Pagan Literature (James Hannam, 2003)

Ten quick responses to atheist claims (John Lennox, 2014)

Atheists and the Quest for Objective Morality (Chad Meister, 2010)

God on the Brain (Angus Menuge, 2010)

Ghosts for the Atheist (Robert Velarde, 2009)

The Psychology of Atheism (Paul C. Vitz)

 

CONCILIATORY EFFORTS / COMMON GROUND

Secular Humanism and Christian Humanism: Seeking After Common Ground (Dave Armstrong and Sue Strandberg, 2001)

Can Atheists be Saved? Are They All “Evil”? (Dave Armstrong, 2003)

Constructive, Enjoyable Atheist-Christian Discussion Perfectly Possible (Dave Armstrong, 2007)

16 Atheists / Agnostics and Me: Sounds Like a Good Ratio! Further Adventures at an Atheist “Bible Study” Group (Dave Armstrong, 2010)

Clarifications re: Atheist “Reductio” Paper (Dave Armstrong, 2015)

NT on God-Rejecters vs. Open-Minded Agnostics (Dave Armstrong, 2015)

Legitimate Atheist Anger (Dave Armstrong, 2015)

My Enjoyable Dinner with Six Atheist Friends (Dave Armstrong, 2015)

 

EVIL, PROBLEM OF 

Treatise on the Problem of Evil (Dave Armstrong, 2002)

Some Christian Replies to the Problem of Evil as Set Forth by Atheists (Dave Armstrong, 2006)

Dialogue #2 with an Atheist on the Problem of Evil (Dave Armstrong vs. “drunken tune”, 2006)

Dialogue #3 with an Atheist on the Problem of Evil (Dave Armstrong vs. John W. Loftus, 2006)

“Logical” Problem of Evil: Alvin Plantinga’s Decisive Refutation [Dave Armstrong, 2006]

Is the “Strong” Logical Argument From Evil Largely Discredited If Not Dead, Or Alive & Well? (Atheist Confusion) (Dave Armstrong, 2006)

Why Did a Perfect God Create an Imperfect World? (Dave Armstrong, 2015)

How Can God be Just and Ordain Evil? (John A. Battle, 1996)

The Connection-Building Theodicy (Robin Collins, 2012)

Debate: God, Morality, and Evil (William Lane Craig vs. Kai Nielsen, Feb. 1991)

Freedom and the Ability to Choose Evil (William Lane Craig, 2008)

Animal Suffering (William Lane Craig, 2009)

The “Evil god” Objection (William Lane Craig, 2011)

Problem of Evil without Objective Moral Values (William Lane Craig, 2011)

Molinism and the Soteriological Problem of Evil Once More (William Lane Craig, 2011)

On the Goodness of God (William Lane Craig, 2012)

The Problem of Evil Once More (William Lane Craig, 2012)

Gratuitous Evil and Moral Discernment (William Lane Craig, 2013)

God’s Permitting Natural Evil (William Lane Craig, 2013)

God’s Permitting Horrific Evils (William Lane Craig, 2014)

Law’s “evil-god challenge” (+ Part II) (Edward Feser, 2010-2011)

The Logical Problem of Evil: Mackie and Plantinga (Daniel Howard-Snyder)

How an Unsurpassable Being Can Create a Surpassable World (Daniel and Frances Howard-Snyder, 1994)

The Real Problem of No Best World (Frances and Daniel Howard-Snyder, 1996)

Transworld Sanctity and Plantinga’s Free Will Defense (Daniel Howard-Snyder & John O’Leary-Hawthorne, 1998)

Is Theism Compatible with Gratuitous Evil? (Daniel and Frances Howard-Snyder, 1999)

God, Evil, and Suffering (Daniel Howard-Snyder, 1999)

On Rowe’s Argument from Particular Horrors (Daniel Howard-Snyder, 2001)

Grounds for Belief in God Aside, Does Evil Make Atheism More Reasonable than Theism? (Daniel Howard-Snyder & Michael Bergmann, 2001)

Theodicy (Daniel Howard-Snyder, 2006)

The Magnitude, Duration, and Distribution of Evil: A Theodicy (Peter van Inwagen, 1988)

The Problem of Evil, the Problem of Air, and the Problem of Silence (Peter van Inwagen, 1991)

Probability and Evil (Peter van Inwagen, 1997)

The Argument from Particular Horrendous Evils (Peter van Inwagen, 2001)

The Problem of Evil: Preliminaries (Robert C. Koons, 1998)

Tough-minded and Tender-hearted Responses to the Problem of Evil (Robert C. Koons, 1998)

The Free Will Defense (Robert C. Koons, 1998)

God’s Answer to Human Suffering (Peter Kreeft, 1986)

Evil (Peter Kreeft, 1988)

Does the savagery of predation in nature show that God either isn’t, or at least isn’t good-hearted? (Glenn Miller, 1999)

Theodicy (+ Part II / Part III / Part IV / Part V) (Glenn Miller, 2000)

Christian Theism and the Problem of Evil (Michael L. Peterson, 1978)

The Perfect Goodness of God (Alvin Plantinga, 1962)

The Probablistic Argument from Evil (Alvin Plantinga, 1978)

Degenerate Evidence and Rowe’s New Evidential Argument from Evil (Alvin Plantinga, 1998)

A New Free Will Defense (Alexander R. Pruss, 2002)

Limiting God to solve the problem of evil (Alexander R. Pruss, 2012)

The argument from partial theodicy (Alexander R. Pruss, 2015)

Why Does God Allow Suffering? (Lee Strobel, 2001)

The Problem of Observed Pain: A Study of C. S. Lewis on Suffering (Robert Walter Wall, 1983)

 

“GOOD: PROBLEM OF”

Dialogue w an Atheist on the “Problem of Good” (Dave Armstrong vs. Mike Hardie, 2001)

 

HELL: “PROBLEM” OF

Friendly Discussion on Presuppositions and Basic Differences (Particularly, Hell), With an Agnostic (Dave Armstrong vs. Ed Babinski, 2005)

Dialogue on Hell and God’s Justice, Part II (Dave Armstrong, 2009)

Debate: Can a Loving God Send People to Hell? (William Lane Craig vs. Ray Bradley, 1994)

Bradley on Hell (William Lane Craig, 2007)

Do the Damned in Hell Accrue Further Punishment? (William Lane Craig, 2008)

Reasonable Damnation: How Jonathan Edwards Argued for the Rationality of Hell (Bruce W. Davidson, 1995)

Hell (Peter Kreeft, 1988)

What kind of a choice is THAT?!: “Love me or Burn”? (Glenn Miller)

A Traditionalist Response to John Stott’s Arguments for Annihilationism (Robert A. Peterson, 1994)

Fallacies in the Annihilationism Debate?  (Robert A. Peterson, 2007)

The Dark Side of Eternity: Hell as Eternal Conscious Punishment (Robert A. Peterson, 2007)

 

HIDDENNESS: DIVINE

Why Isn’t the Evidence Clearer? (John A. Bloom, 1994)

The Argument from Divine Hiddenness (Daniel Howard-Snyder, 1996)

Hiddenness of God (Daniel Howard-Snyder, 2006)

Why Doesn’t God Make Christianity Clearer? (+ Part II / Part III / Part IV / Part V) (Glenn Miller, 2000)

Coercion and the Hiddenness of God (Michael J. Murray, 1993)

 

INQUISITION AND CRUSADES

[see many links on my Inquisition, Crusades, and “Catholic Scandals” Index Page]

 

MORAL “DIFFICULTIES” OF GOD’S (OR HIS FOLLOWERS’) BEHAVIOR IN THE BIBLE / “DIVINE GENOCIDE”

The Judgment of Nations: Biblical Passages and Commentary (Dave Armstrong, 2001)

Debate on the Supposed Irrationality and Immorality of the Psalms (+ Part II / Part III / Part IV) (Dave Armstrong vs. Ed Babinski, 2004)

Did God Harden Pharaoh’s Heart, or Positively Ordain Evil? (Dave Armstrong vs. “DagoodS”, 2006)

Reflections on Original Sin and God’s Prerogative to Judge and Kill as He Wills (Sometimes, Entire Nations) (Dave Armstrong, 2007)

“How Can God [in the OT] Order the Killing and Massacre of Innocents?” [Amalekites, etc.] (Dave Armstrong, 2007)

Did Moses (and God) Sin In Judging the Midianites (Numbers 31)? (+ Part II) (Dave Armstrong, 2008)

Difficulties in Understanding God’s Judgment on Heathen Nations (and other “Problem Passages” in the OT) (Dave Armstrong, 2009)

Jephthah’s Burnt Offering Sacrifice of His Daughter (Judges 11:30-40): Did God Command or Sanction It? (Dave Armstrong, 2009)

Exodus 20:5: God’s “Punishing” or Descendants “to the Third and Fourth Generation”: Proof of an “Unjust” God? (Dave Armstrong, 2010)

Israel as God’s Agent of Judgment (Dave Armstrong, 2015)

Yahweh Wars and the Canaanites: Divinely-Mandated Genocide or Corporate Capital Punishment? (Paul Copan)

Is Yahweh a Moral Monster? The New Atheists and Old Testament Ethics (Paul Copan)

Hateful, Vindictive Psalms? (Paul Copan, 2008)

Slaughter of the Canaanites (William Lane Craig, 2007)

The “Slaughter” of the Canaanites Re-visited (William Lane Craig, 2011)

Once More: The Slaughter of the Canaanites (William Lane Craig, 2013)

How Could a Good God Sanction the Stoning of a Disobedient Child? (Hank Hanegraaff, 2007)

Are Generational Curses Biblical? (Hank Hanegraaff, 2008)

The Inspiration of the Hebrew Bible and the Morality of God’s Commands (Peter van Inwagen, 2010)

Killing the Canaanites: A Response to the New Atheism’s “Divine Genocide” Claims (Clay Jones, 2010)

OT Passages on what God considers worthy of ‘vengeance’ (Glenn Miller)

Is the God of the Bible morally repugnant? (Glenn Miller)

Is God Always Wrathful, Vengeful, Jealous, and Angry? (Glenn Miller, 2000)

Shouldn’t the butchering of the Amalekite children be considered war crimes? (Glenn Miller, 2001)

What about God’s cruelty against the Midianites? [Numbers 31] (Glenn Miller, 2001)

Is God harsh, unlovable, unloving, duplicitous? (Glenn Miller, 2003)

Why couldn’t Israel take in the Amalekites like they did foreign survivors in Deut 20? (Glenn Miller, 2006)

Was God being evil when He killed all the firstborn in Egypt? (Glenn Miller, 2009)

Did you overstate the case for Amalekites being accepted as immigrants into Israel? (Glenn Miller, 2010)

How could a God of Love order the massacre/annihilation of the Canaanites? (Glenn Miller, 2013)

 

NAZI HOLOCAUST AND THE CHURCH / ALLEGED “HITLER’S POPE”

Jewish Recognition of Pope Pius XII’s Support

Exposing Hitler’s Pope and Its Author (William Doino, Jr.)

In Defence of Pius XII and His Aid to the Jews (Rabbi David Dalin)

The Tragic Heroism of Pope Pius XII (George W. Rutler)

The Catholic Church and the Nazis (website)

Pope Pius XI [not Pius XII] and the Nazis (Jimmy Akin)

Hitler and Christianity (Edward Bartlett-Jones, 2009)

Was Hitler a Christian? (Dinesh D’Souza)

Pope Pius XII and the Jews (Sr. Margherita Marchione)

Nazi Policy and the Catholic Church (Karol Jozef Gajewski)

Nazis and Church Locked Horns Early (Zenit)

Hitler’s Pope? (Donald Devine)

Pius XII, co-conspirator in tyrannicide (George Weigel)

Cornwell’s Cheap Shot at Pius XII (Peter Gumpel)

Did Pius XII Remain Silent? (Fr. William Saunders)

Goldhagen v. Pius XII (Ronald Rychlak)

Blaming the Wartime Pope (Kenneth L. Woodward)

800,000 Saved by Pius XII’s Silence (Donald DeMarco)

Pope Pius XII’s Good Fight (Michael Coren)

 

“NEW ATHEISTS”

Critique of Atheist John W. Loftus’ “Deconversion” Story (Dave Armstrong, 2006)

Atheist John Loftus Reacts to My Analysis of His “Deconversion” (Dave Armstrong, 2006)

John Loftus’ Deconversion & Feuds w Atheists (Dave Armstrong, 2015)

What Michael Behe actually wrote in Time [about Richard Dawkins] (Michael J. Behe, 2007)

Richard Dawkins’ Argument for Atheism in The God Delusion (William Lane Craig, 2007)

Dawkins’ “Central Argument” Once More (William Lane Craig, 2008)

Dawkins’ Delusion (William Lane Craig, 2008)

Has Hawking Eliminated God? (William Lane Craig, 2011)

Curiosity With Stephen Hawking (William Lane Craig, 2011)

The New Philistinism (Edward Feser, 2010)

A clue for Jerry Coyne (Edward Feser, 2011)

Why can’t these guys stay on topic? Or read? [Jerry Coyne] (Edward Feser, 2015)

Red herrings don’t go to heaven either [Jerry Coyne] (Edward Feser, 2015)

From Rage to Faith: Peter Hitchens’ The Rage Against God (Joseph E. Gorra, 2011)

The Plight of the New Atheism: A Critique (Gary R. Habermas, 2008)

Village Atheists with Vengeance (C. Wayne Mayhall, 2007)

 

NON-BELIEF, ARGUMENT FROM

Dialogue on the Argument From Non-Belief (ANB) (Dave Armstrong vs. Steve Conifer & Dr. Ted Drange, 2003)

Reply to Atheist John Loftus’ “Outsider Test of Faith” Series (Dave Armstrong, 2007)

 

OBJECTIONS TO CHRISTIANITY AND THE BIBLE: MISCELLANEOUS

What about Those Who have Never Heard the Gospel? (Glenn Miller)

Did the Christians burn/destroy all the classical literature? (Glenn Miller, 1996)

How I would decide between conflicting revelations? (+ Part II) (Glenn Miller, 1997)

 

SEX SCANDALS (CATHOLIC)

[see many links on my Inquisition, Crusades, and “Catholic Scandals” Index Page]

 

SINNERS / HYPOCRISY IN THE CHURCH

[see many links on my Inquisition, Crusades, and “Catholic Scandals” Index Page]

 

SLAVERY AND CHRISTIANITY

The issue of ‘slavery’ in the NT/Apostolic world (esp. Paul) (Glenn Miller,  1999)

Does God Condone Slavery in the Bible? (Glenn Miller, 2004)

Christianity and the Slavery Question (Arthur Rupprecht, 1963)

[see many more links on my Inquisition, Crusades, and “Catholic Scandals” Index Page]

 

SOUL / CONSCIOUSNESS / LIFE AFTER DEATH / DUALISM / GENERAL RESURRECTION

 

The Possibility of Resurrection (Peter van Inwagen, 1978)

Resurrection (Peter van Inwagen, 1998)

The Case for Life After Death (Peter Kreeft)

Is there evidence for the existence of the “soul”? (Glenn Miller, 1997)

Is there evidence for the existence of “spirits” and some “spiritual dimension”? (Glenn Miller, 2001)

 

WOMEN, CHRISTIAN / BIBLICAL VIEW OF

Women: The Data From the Life and Ministry of Jesus (Glenn Miller, 1996)

Women: The Data From the Historical Literature of the Apostolic Circle (Glenn Miller, 1996)

Women: The Data From the Monarchy Literature (Glenn Miller, 1996)

Women: The Data From the Divided Monarchy Literature (Glenn Miller, 1996)

“Why do men get all the glory in the bible? Why are women only minor characters?!” (Glenn Miller, 1997)

Are the laws in the OT about rape and virginity indicative of a God who is unfair to women? (Glenn Miller, 2001)

Does female “pain-prone” reproductive physiology indicate that God apparently hates women? (Glenn Miller, 2001)

Women in the Bible: Pushbacks, Objections, Stereotypes [22 Objections] (Glenn Miller, 2001)

Did God treat women’s bodies as property, in the “rape” of David’s concubines by Absalom? (Glenn Miller, 2001)

Women: The Data From the Pre-Monarchy Literature (Glenn Miller, 2004)

Women in the Bible and Early Church (Glenn Miller, 2004)

Women’s Roles in the Early Church (Glenn Miller, 2005)

“Why was Jesus so mean and insulting to the Canaanite woman?” (Glenn Miller, 2006)

***

Bad links last removed: 6-10-18

 

 

2021-11-22T15:57:06-04:00

Allan Ramsay, David Hume, 1711 - 1776. Historian and philosopher

David Hume (1711-1776): portrait (1754) by Allan Ramsay (1713-1784) [public domain / Wikimedia Commons]

He was not, according to his own words, or in the opinion of many Hume scholars:

The order of the universe proves an omnipotent mind. (Treatise, 633n)

Wherever I see order, I infer from experience that there, there hath been Design and Contrivance . . . the same principle obliges me to infer an infinitely perfect Architect from the Infinite Art and Contrivance which is displayed in the whole fabric of the universe. (Letters, 25-26)

[Found in Capaldi, see below]

The whole frame of nature bespeaks an intelligent author; and no rational enquirer can, after serious reflection, suspend his belief a moment with regard to the primary principles of genuine Theism and Religion . . .

Were men led into the apprehension of invisible, intelligent power by a contemplation of the works of nature, they could never possibly entertain any conception but of one single being, who bestowed existence and order on this vast machine, and adjusted all its parts, according to one regular plan or connected system . . .

All things of the universe are evidently of a piece. Every thing is adjusted to every thing. One design prevails throughout the whole. And this uniformity leads the mind to acknowledge one author. (Natural History of Religion, 1757, ed. H.E. Root, London: 1956, 21, 26)

Philo and Cleanthes, in the Dialogues accept the argument from design. Hume scholar Nicholas Capaldi states that:

All of the characters in the Dialogues speak for Hume, and the message of the Dialogues is that morality is independent of religion. (David Hume, Boston: G.K. Hall & Co., 1975, ch. 9, 188-97; Capaldi is an internationally-known Hume expert and founder of the Hume Society)

Capaldi states in the above section:

Hume believed in the existence of God. He rejected the ontological argument. He accepted in one form the argument from design. God exists, but his properties are unknown and unknowable by us . . . In none of his writings does Hume say or imply that he does not accept the existence of God. On the contrary, Hume says in several places that he accepts the existence of God . . .

Guided by basic misunderstandings of Hume’s position on causality or at the very least the negative aspects of Hume’s skepticism, most readers assume that the central question is one concerning God’s existence.

Thus we have, e.g., Sir Isaiah Berlin of Oxford falsely assert:

In 1776 he died, as he had lived, an atheist . . . (The Age of Enlightenment: The 18th Century Philosophers, New York: Mentor, 1956, 163)

This shows that “experts” (this is from a very famous series on the history of philosophy) can often get things – in this case, straightforward factual matters – dead wrong by not examining closely enough a person’s thought, and by often extrapolating their own beliefs and premises onto the other person (long one of my own contentions in discourse). It’s also a function of the over-compartmentalization of knowledge, in my opinion.

Many atheists who write on Patheos (where my own blog is posted) fall prey to the same myth:

From: James Fieser: “Hume’s Concealed Attack on Religion and His Early Critics,” Journal of Philosophical Research, 1995, Vol. 20, pp. 83-101.

Fieser is a Professor of Philosophy at the University of Tennessee (see his publications):

Given Hume’s notorious reputation as an enemy of religion, it is interesting that questions remain about Hume’s precise views on the subject. Capaldi argues that Hume accepted the design argument for God’s existence.(2) O’Higgins and Gaskin argue that Hume was a qualified deist.(3) For Noxon, Hume is an agnostic.(4) Mossner and Livingston argue that Hume advanced his own humanistic religion.(5) Kemp Smith and Williams argue that Hume’s religion consisted of merely holding open the possibility of an intelligent creator.(6) Most of this debate traces back to passages in the Natural History of Religion, and the Dialogues Concerning Natural Religion in which Hume seems to endorse the design argument.(7)

. . . we can never show with certainty that Hume was a strict atheist: we have no record of a direct denial by Hume of God’s existence, either anecdotally or in his philosophical writings.

FOOTNOTES

2. Nicholas Capaldi, “Hume’s Philosophy of Religion: God Without Ethics,” International Journal for Philosophy of Religion, 1970, Vol. I, pp. 233-240.

3. For [James] O’Higgins, Hume accepted the rationality of the design argument, but remained skeptical about the entire enterprise of reasoning. Hume, then, reluctantly concedes to God’s existence, yet denies that God concerns himself with governing the world. See “Hume and the Deists: a Contrast in Religious Approaches,” Journal of Theological Studies, 1971, Vol. 23, pp. 479-501. In Hume’s Philosophy of Religion (Atlantic Highlands, 1988), J.C.A. Gaskin describes Hume’s attenuated deism as a weak probability that natural order results from an intelligence remotely analogous to our own. This unites with our subjective feeling that natural order springs from a designer, hence we assent to the existence of a designer (although this being has no moral claim on us).

4. James Noxon argues that no one of the characters speaks consistently for Hume, and this expresses Hume’s view about the limits of human understanding. For Noxon, this suggests that Hume was agnostic. “Hume’s Agnosticism,” in Hume: A Collection of Critical Essays, ed. V.C. Chappell (New York, 1966), and “In defence of ‘Hume’s Agnosticism,'” Journal of the History of Philosophy, 1976, Vol. 14, pp. 469-473.

5. Ernest C. Mossner argues that Hume denied all supernatural and conventional religion, but advanced a “religion of man” insofar as he optimistically believed that the enlightened determine the fate of humanity and are the measure of all things. See “The Religion of David Hume,” Journal of the History of Ideas, 1978, Vol. 39, pp. 653-663. Donald Livingston argues that Hume offers a “philosophical theism” which is an historically determined natural belief, yet one which eschews the writings and rituals of the theistic tradition. See “Hume’s Conception of True Religion,” in Hume’s Philosophy of Religion (Winston-Salem, 1986), pp. 33-73. Even if Mossner and Livingston have captured Hume’s views, it is difficult to see how this could qualify as a religion by 18th century standards, and it is hard to believe that Hume would want to classify it as such.

6. Norman Kemp Smith argues that religion for Hume consists exclusively in an intellectual assent to the proposition “God exists.” He concludes, though, that religion for Hume ought not to have any influence on human conduct (Dialogues concerning Natural Religion, p. 24). Kemp Smith bases his view on the conclusions to the “Natural History” and Dialogues, and Hume’s 1743 letter to William Mure. B.A.O. Williams argues that Hume did not reject the possibility of a creator with something like human intelligence; see “Hume on Religion,” in David Hume: A Symposium, e.d. D.F. Pears, London, 1963, pp. 77-88.

7. Although the “Natural History” is antagonistic to revealed and popular religious belief, in no less than nine passages Hume seems to defend the design argument. Although the Dialogues is antagonistic to natural religion, Cleanthes, the defender of natural religion, wins the debate, and Philo, the religious skeptic, eventually concedes that “the cause or causes of order in the universe probably bear some remote analogy to human intelligence.” Thus, at face value, both the “Natural History” and the Dialogues support the belief in God through the design argument, yet destroy all other aspects of religious belief.

In another article, Hume’s Solution to the Necessitarian Problem of Evil,” Fieser states:

Although it is popular now in Hume scholarship to interpret Hume as a type of theist, I believe that we should resist this approach, principally because Hume’s contemporaries did not interpret him this way.

In the Oxford University Press publication, Introduction to Philosophy: Classical and Contemporary Readings, Third Edition, Edited by John Perry and Michael Bratman (both of Stanford), 1998, we find these remarks about Hume, in a section entitled “Hume’s Religious Orientation”:

If we take Philo’s pronouncements in Dialogues Concerning Natural Religion (1776) as a guide, the mature Hume was a theist, albeit of a vague and weak-kneed sort. He seems to have been convinced by the argument from design of the proposition “That the cause or causes of order in the universe probably bear some remote analogy to human intelligence”‘ (227). But he was also convinced that the argument does not permit this undefined intelligence to be given further shape or specificity, and certainly not the specificity that would be needed to support any inference “that affects human life, or can be the source of any action or forbearance.” Hume’s inconsequential theism was combined with an abhorrence of organized religion, which Hume saw as composed of superstitions that have had almost uniformly baneful effects for mankind.

In lecture notes from the Philosophy Dept. at the University of Durham (author not given), “Lecture 7: Interpreting the Dialogues,” we find the following analysis (completely reproduced):

THE PROBLEM OF INTERPRETATION

Two closely related textual questions can be raised with regard to theDialogues. Firstly, who speaks for Hume (and when)? Secondly, how do the Dialogues fit into Hume’s other published discussions of religion, and what do they tell us about the reasonableness or otherwise of religious belief? One source of evidence in answering both questions is to see who comes out as the ‘winner’ in theDialogues; another is to compare the claims of Philo, Cleanthes and Demea with Hume’s own philosophy.

WHO SPEAKS FOR HUME?

Commentators have taken different lines here. Let us weigh up the textual evidence for each of the main characters:

Demea puts forward relatively weak arguments, except when joining Philo in his criticism of Cleanthes. His main positive argument is thea priori demonstration of God’s existence set out in Part IX, which is swiftly demolished by Cleanthes. Cleanthes’ argument-that noparticular existence is necessary-strongly resembles a point made by Hume elsewhere, that no matter of fact is demonstrable a priori (see the Enquiry, Sections IV Part 1, and Section XII Part 3). Hume has Cleanthes quoting Samuel Clarke as the source of the kind of reasoning employed by Demea, which indicates that Demea’s argument is modelled on Clarke’s (although Demea is certainly not Clarke). The serious choice for Hume’s mouthpiece must either be Philo or Cleanthes.

Cleanthes puts forward the central argument of the Dialogues, and his views are proclaimed to approach nearest to the truth by Pamphilus in the last paragraph (note, however, that Pamphilus is Cleanthes’ pupil). Also, Cleanthes is the mouthpiece for Humean criticisms of Demea’s a priori argument (see above). Other commentators point out that although Philo consistently criticises Cleanthes’ argument, he never replies to Cleanthes’ basic point that the presence of order in the world causes the presence of a designer to ‘flow in upon you with the force like that of a sensation’ (Part III, para. 7). On these grounds, Noxon, for instance, argues that while the views of none of the interlocutors entirely represents Hume’s views, Hume intended Cleanthes to do so most closely.

Philo is the most common choice for Hume’s mouthpiece: Ayer (Hume, p.93) on the grounds that Philo says the most, Kemp Smith on the grounds that Philo’s criticisms of the design argument closely resemble Hume’s discussion in Section XI of the Enquiry, and elsewhere. Against this, we have Philo’s concession in Part XII that “A purpose, an intention, a design strikes everywhere the most careless, the most stupid thinker” (Part XII, para.2). Philo also suggests that his sceptical stance was adopted only for the sake of argument, and that he felt safe to do so only because on the subject of religion, he is never likely to ‘corrupt the principles of any man of common sense’ (Part XII, para.2). Noxon argues that Hume would not have the character representing his own views recant them in so flippant a way. Kemp Smith, however, put Philo’s admission-along with Hume’s own ritual profession of faith-down to Hume’s regard for the conventions of his time (there is evidence for this in Hume’s correspondence). Noxon replies that Hume was often happy to flout other conventions of his time, and in any case planned the Dialoguesfor posthumous publication. However, that Hume was sympathetic to Philo’s position is supported by his correspondence (see his letter of 10 March 1751).

WHAT SHOULD WE CONCLUDE FROM THE DIALOGUES?

It is unlikely that Hume’s intention was to convince readers to believe in the non-existence (or the existence) of God. Rather, Hume perhaps intended the Dialogues to invite us to reflect on the relation between our belief (either way) and: (i) any relevant evidence we have; (ii) our behaviour. Looking at the arguments presented in theDialogues (and elsewhere), it is evident (from the drubbing received by the design argument) that Hume contends that we don’t know(from the design argument) very much at all about the nature of God. We certainly should not conclude that the Designer with whom the ‘remote analogy’ of the design argument presents us can be identified with the God of any organised religion: given the available evidence, we cannot know that this Designer is omnipotent, or benevolent, for instance. Putting this together with Hume’s other arguments concerning religion: (i) his rejection of the argument a priori; and (ii) his rejection of miracles as a source of evidence for the truth of any revealed religion, we have a powerful critique of the role of reason in supporting religious belief, and a call for caution inacting on any such belief. Hume does, however, leave open the possibility that God might directly cause individual believers to have faith (see Noxon).

However, given Philo’s (and Hume’s) frequent protestations of the obviousness of God’s existence, perhaps we could (with Noxon and Penelhum) draw a parallel with Hume’s position on (for instance) induction (in the Enquiry, Sections IV and V). Reason cannot furnish us with a justification for believing: (i) that there is an external world that is independent of our perception; (ii) that past regularities of our experience will continue to hold in future; and (iii) that the senses are (usually) reliable sources of information about the world around us. However, Hume argues that only excessive (philosophical) scepticism could lead a reasonable enquirer to doubt these beliefs, for they are beliefs which underpin ordinary life, without which it would be impossible to act in the world. The parallel suggests that refusing to believe in God merely because this belief is not grounded in reason would be inconsistent (this is Penelhum’s ‘parity’ argument): belief in God just as naturally suggests itself to the human mind as belief in the external world. This interpretation is disputed by Gaskin. Firstly, belief in God is not in fact universal, and the mechanisms that produce belief in an external world and the other natural beliefs are quite different from the processes that produce belief in God (as investigated by Hume in the Natural History of Religion), for the latter belief is the product of fear of the unknown, and it may be absent in those who inhabit ‘civilised’ societies. Secondly (and crucially), belief in God is not a prerequisite for rational action in the world (see Gaskin chapters 6 and 7).

What we can conclude, however, is that it is quite wrong for religious beliefs to have the effects on behaviour, morals and politics that, according to Hume in the Natural History, they typically do have. ‘True religion’, for Hume, is plain philosophical assent, rather than self-denial or religious activism.

READING

J. Gaskin Hume’s Philosophy of Religion (Chs. 6, 7 and 12)

J. Gaskin ‘Hume on Religion’ in D.F. Norton (ed.) The Cambridge Companion to Hume

N. Kemp Smith Introduction to the Kemp Smith edition of theDialogues

G. Nathan ‘Hume’s Immanent God’ in V. Chappell (ed.) Hume

J. Noxon ‘Hume’s Agnosticism’ in V. Chappell (ed.) Hume

T. Penelhum God and Skepticism Chapters 2, 5 and 6

Mark G. Spencer, Ph.D. Candidate, Department of History, The University of Western Ontario, writes in his paper, “The Dialogues Concerning Natural Religion: Hume’s Response to the Dogmatic and Intolerant,” The Western Journal of Graduate Research 2000, Vol. 9 (1), 1-19:

Sorting through this ever-expanding mountain of commentary reveals that scholars have tended to read the Dialogues in two basic ways. The Dialogues is read either with the presupposition that Hume intended primarily to make a philosophical point about religion (2), or alternatively, it is read with the aim of showing that Hume’s intentions therein were primarily literary. (3)This distinct interpretive divide, moreover, is often commented on explicitly in the literature where it has become an entrenched characteristic. (4)

Proponents of both readings, however, have been of a single mind in their concern to ask one (seemingly) fundamental question: who in the Dialogues speaks for Hume? (5) In answer, most interpreters argue that Hume is represented by one of the characters in theDialogues. Many of Hume’s contemporaries and near contemporaries, for example, thought that Hume spoke through Cleanthes. As Dugald Stewart put it, “[i]t must always be remembered that Cleanthes is the hero of the Dialogues, and is to be considered as speaking Mr. Hume’s real opinions” (1854: I, 605). (6)

In 1935, Hume scholar Norman Kemp Smith challenged this “standard interpretation” of the time, arguing instead that “Philo, from start to finish, represents Hume”(1959: 47). Kemp Smith has often restated his interpretation which has remained influential, with many scholars following his lead but adding their own variations. (7) Others, however, have thought that Philo’s scepticism is different from Hume’s (Noxon, 1964). For others still, Hume is represented by Pamphilus, the Dialogues‘ narrator (Hendel, 1963). More recently, the trend is to argue that none of the characters wholly represents Hume — either because Hume is thought to be speaking wherever something intelligent is said (8), or because Hume meant the dialoguers to be “philosophical types” (Pakaluk, 1984), or because the Dialogues themselves are thought to speak for Hume (9), or finally, because the characters are thought to be part of Hume’s more basic concern with “the structures of consciousness” (Smitten, 1991; see also White, 1988).

FOOTNOTES

5 See almost any of the secondary literature. Basu (1978) sums up the concern of much of the literature in his title: “Who is the Real Hume in the Dialogues?”. The ubiquitous issue is also stated clearly by Noxon (1964: 248): “Who speaks for Hume? Unless this question can be answered, Hume’s last philosophical testament provides us with no clue to his own religious convictions”; and Mossner (1977: 4): “Who, then, represents Hume in the Dialogues?”

6 Many of Hume’s contemporaries also thought Hume spoke through Philo.

7 Mossner (1977): “Hume is Philo and Philo alone”(4), “Philo and Philo alone is Hume’s spokesman”(12); Penelhum (1979: 270): “I must state at the outset that I agree with those scholars, from Kemp Smith on, who identify Hume with Philo”; Wadia (1987: 211): “Incidentally, I will assume throughout the sequel that Kemp Smith’s identification of Hume with Philo is essentially correct”. See also Coleman (1989: 179): “I will support the traditional thesis that Philo represents Hume’s views on religious belief”. Some have also tried to identify the other speakers in the Dialogues. Mossner (1936) argued that Philo is Hume’s voice, Cleanthes represents Joseph Butler, and Demea is best thought of as Samuel Clarke.

8 Bricke (1975: 17): “one must assume that, no matter who the speaker, those arguments which are presented in the most persuasive and compelling way, those arguments which seem most cogent, are probably to be ascribed to Hume”. See also Gaskin (1978): “I shall take it that Hume in the Dialogues is any speaker who appears to be making a good philosophical point”.

9 Livingston (1984 :44): “No character may be taken to represent Hume’s views”. See also Yandell (1990: 37): “None of the actual participants in the Dialogues– Cleanthes, Philo, and Demea – always represents Hume. All of them sometimes represent him”. Tweyman (1993: 174) disagrees: “That the Dialogues is filled with dramatic and literary elements is beyond question. However, that these elements can be so construed as to reveal that, in addition to Demea, Cleanthes, and Philo, there is a fourth main speaker, Hume, is extremely doubtful”.

REFERENCES (selective)

Andre, Shane, 1993. Was Hume an Atheist?, Hume Studies 19: 141-166.

Austin, W. 1985. Philo’s Reversal. Philosophical Topics 13: 103-112.

Basu, D. K. 1978. Who is the Real Hume in the Dialogues? Indian Philosophical Quarterly 6: 21-28. Bricke, J. 1975. On the Interpretation of Hume’s Dialogues. Religious Studies 11: 1-18.

Clarke, B. L. 1980. The Argument from Design. American Journal of Theological Philosophy 1: 98-108.

Coleman, D. P. 1989. Interpreting Hume’s Dialogues. Religious Studies 25: 179-190.

Gaskin, J. C. 1993b. Hume on Religion. In D.F. Norton, ed. The Cambridge Companion to Hume: 313-344. New York: Cambridge University Press.

Gaskin, J. C. 1978. Hume’s Philosophy of Religion. London: MacMillan.

Hendel, C. 1963. Studies in the Philosophy of David Hume (1st ed. 1925). Princeton: Princeton University Press.

Kemp Smith, N. 1947. The Argument of the Dialogues Concerning Natural Religion. In N. Kemp Smith, ed., David Hume: Dialogues Concerning Natural Religion (1st ed. 1935). New York: Bobbs-Merrill Company.

Livingston, D. 1984. Hume’s Philosophy of Common Life. Chicago: University of Chicago Press. Mossner, E. C. 1936. The Enigma of Hume. Mind 14: 335-349.

Mossner, E. C. 1977. Hume and the Legacy of the Dialogues. In G. P. Morice, ed. David Hume: Bicentenary Papers. Edinburgh: Edinburgh University Press.

Mossner, E. C. 1954. The Life of David Hume. Austin, Texas: University of Texas Press.

Noxon, J. 1964. Hume’s Agnosticism. Philosophical Review 73: 248-261.

Pakaluk, M. 1984. Philosophical Types in Hume’s Dialogues. In V. Hope, ed. Philosopher of the Scottish Enlightenment, 116-132. Edinburgh: Edinburgh University Press.

Penelhum, T. 1979. Hume’s Skepticism and the Dialogues. In D.F. Norton, N. Capaldi, and W.L. Robison, eds. McGill Hume Studies: 253-278. San Diego, California: Austin Hill Press.

Smitten, J. R. 1991. Hume’s Dialogues Concerning Natural Religion as Social Discourse, in J. Dwyer and R. B. Sher, eds., Sociability and Society in Eighteenth-Century Scotland, 39-56. Baltimore: John Hopkins University Press, published in association with the Eighteenth-Century Scottish Studies Society.

Stewart, D. 1854. The Collected Works of Dugald Stewart. In W. Hamlton, ed. 1854-1860. Edinburgh: T. Constable and Co.

Tweyman, S. 1987. Hume’s Dialogues on Evil. Hume Studies 13: 74-85.

Tweyman, S. 1993. Hurlbutt, Hume, Newton and the Design Argument. Hume Studies 19: 167-176. Tweyman, S. 1986.Scepticism and Belief in Hume’s Dialogues Concerning Natural Religion. The Hague.

Wadia, P. S. 1987. Commentary on Professor Tweyman’s `Hume on Evil’. Hume Studies 13: 104-112.

Wadia, P. S. 1979. Philo Confounded. In. D.F. Norton, N. Capaldi, and W.L. Robison, eds. McGill Hume Studies: 279-290. San Diego, California: Austin Hill Press.

Wadia, P. S. 1978. Professor Pike on Part III of Hume’s Dialogues.Religious Studies 14: 325-342. White, R. 1988. Hume’s Dialogues and the Comedy of Religion. Hume Studies 14: 390-407.

Yandell, K. E. 1990. Hume’s ‘Inexplicable Mystery’: His Views on Religion. Philadelphia, Pennsylvania: Temple University Press.

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2019-06-26T02:59:01-04:00

NuclearExplosion
Nuclear explosion on April 18, 1953 at a Nevada test site. [public domain / Wikimedia Commons]
(12-6-06)
See my critique of John Loftus’ deconversion story. His words below are in blue.

[Note of 9-23-15] Many of his hysterical, vitriolic reactions to my critique were lost to posterity, because they were on an old commenting system on my older blog. But there are plenty of other representative (and quite humorous) ones preserved below.* * * * *

Will this silliness ever end? John W. Loftus of Debunking Christianity fame just won’t let it rest. With relentless irrationality and hypersensitivity, he keeps calling me names and misrepresenting our past interactions. His latest tirade resulted from one (undeniable) half-sentence I wrote yesterday on his blog, in the midst of commenting on someone else’s deconversion story:

I make no claims on either your sincerity or the state of your soul or moral character. None whatsoever. I simply critiqued the reasons you gave for your deconversion. I don’t see why that would be insulting to anyone (as it is merely entering into the arena of competing ideas), yet John Loftus blew a gasket when I examined his story.

John then responded with his usual irrational vehemence:

You are an idiot! You never critiqued my whole deconversion story. Deconversion stories are piecemeal. They cannot give a full explanation for why someone left the faith. They only give hints at why they left the faith. It requires writing a whole book about why someone left the faith to understand why they did, and few people do that. I did. If you truly want to critique my deconversion story then critique my book. Other than that, you can critique a few brief paragraphs or a brief testimony, if you want to, but that says very little about why someone left the faith. You walk away thinking you have completely analysed someone’s story. But from where I sit, that’s just stupid. That’s S-T-U-P-I-D! If you truly want to critique a deconversion story, then critique mine in my book. I wrote a complete story there.

And (three minutes later):

Dave, I can only tolerate stupidity so long.

I challenge you to really critique the one deconversion story that has been published in a book. It’s a complete story. A whole story. It’s mine.

And (some hours later):

Do you accept my challenge?

I replied:

1) First of all, why would you even want to have your book critiqued by someone whom you routinely call an “idiot,” an “arrogant idiot,” a “joke,” a “know-it-all,” and so forth? I’ve never understood this. I have four published books (soon to be five). The last thing in the world I would want (on amazon or anywhere else) is for a blithering idiot to either praise or bash one of my books. I want respectable people to do so.

I have less than no desire in any of my dialogues to interact with the worst examples of opposing views. I want the best. Of course, if someone has a personal ax to grind, that’s different, isn’t it, John? If your goal is to embarrass and belittle someone who disagrees, then this would explain the big desire to wrangle with so-called “idiots.”

2) It is a hyper-ludicrous implication to maintain that deconversion stories are immune to all criticism simply because they are not exhaustive. It’s embarrassing to even have to point this out, but there it is.

3) I have already long since taken up your “challenge.” I said many weeks ago that if you sent me your book in an e-file for free, I’d be more than happy to critique it. I won’t buy it, and I refuse to type long portions of it when it is possible to cut-and-paste. That is an important factor since my methodology is Socratic and point-by-point. I actually try to comprehensively answer opposing arguments, not just talk about them or do a mutual monologue.

You railed against that, saying that it was a “handout.” I responded that you could have any of my (14 completed) books in e-book form for free.

4) One wonders, however, with your manifest “gnashing teeth” attitude towards me, what would be accomplished by such a critique? You’ve already shown that you can’t or won’t offer any rational counter-reply when I analyze any of your arguments. You didn’t with the deconversion thing and refused again when I wrote about God and time. On both occasions you simply made personal insults. There is no doubt about that. It’s all a matter of record.

Why should I think it would be any different if I were to spend a month writing a detailed critique of your book? Maybe then you would get so mad you would sue me for libel or hire a hit man? LOL

John’s original Cliff Notes version” of his deconversion story, posted on his blog (2-19-06), ran 2701 words. That’s a pretty hefty article. Yet John claims that a summary of this length “says very little about why someone left the faith” and calls it a few brief paragraphs or a brief testimony.” He implies that it is improper to critique such a thing because it is so incomplete; people ought to read his book (nice sales pitch there, by the way; how ingenious).

Why, then, post it at all? Are we supposed to believe that it was posted with no possibility that anyone should respond with any critique of it? Is it merely a sermon; preaching to the atheist choir and rah-rah sis-boom-bah cheerleading “amen” brigade (John used to be a Church of Christ preacher)? What’s the point? Why have comments capability if no one is supposed to interact with posts at Debunking Christianity? If I am told that this is a version which offers far less detail compared to his book, then I readily accept that as a truism (DUH!). But there is no reason to think that it should be immune to all criticisms simply because he has a longer version elsewhere.

My own conversion story to Catholicism, that was published in the bestseller Surprised by Truth and read by (literally) several hundred thousand people, is available online in my original draft. It runs 3,469 words (only 1.3 times larger than John’s; his is 78% as long as mine). I have never stated that no one should ever reply to that because it is so short, or that I have 375 pages somewhere else (actually, all the various arguments I have made in the course of my apologetics, that would be the “full and exhaustive” account as to why I am a Catholic) that anyone would have to read in order to issue any analysis at all: critical or otherwise. To do so would be (how did John put it?): rather S-T-U-P-I-D.

His posting of his story drew 33 comments [it now has 85, in 2015], including many lengthy ones from Christians. But John nowhere hinted that this was improper, or that anyone would have to read his entire book in order to intelligently make a critique of his odyssey into apostasy. He apparently saves that irrational ire, for some reason, for me. But what was so terribly different about my own critique? I just don’t see it. Was it hard-hitting? Yes, for sure; absolutely, like most of my critiques. I don’t mince words. But on the other hand, I don’t personally insult. I stick strictly to the subject and don’t cast aspersions on either motives or intelligence.

Remember, too, that John is arguing against the truth of the Christian faith. This is a very serious charge, and it deserves to be firmly dealt with. A Christian has every good reason to respond. This is a public attack; hence open to public examination and scrutiny. He thinks I was very personal. I deny this (and I have noted that even fellow atheists on his blog have understood that it was not personal, or intended to be so, at all).

A recent critique, strictly on the subject matter of God and time, was even less “personal”, yet John got mad about that, too, and called me more names, rather than simply respond and make some semblance of a counter-argument. Pretty impressive showing for a guy who has the “equivalent” of a Ph.D. and “several” master’s degrees, isn’t it?

But there is more insight we can glean concerning this fiasco, by looking at another stink having to do with his deconversion. This time the person (Protestant apologist and frequent critic of atheism, Steve Hays) actually read his book. Did it matter? Not much. John replied according to his usual modus operandi (even granting that Steve can be quite acerbic and insulting far too often: I know from his anti-Catholic critiques of some of my writing). Nevertheless, granting all that, it is another instance of John not being able to handle at all, any serious critique of his fabled odyssey from Christian to atheist.

John made a “challenge” to a Protestant who had also critiqued his story, similar to the one he made to me, complete with prognostications of inevitable loss of faith upon completeion of his profound and unanswerable tome and Pascal’s wager-like clever sales pitches:

I’m saying the case I make in my new book is overwhelmingly better.

Again, are you going to read it and critique it for yourself? Hey, I dare you! I bet you think you’re that smart, don’t ya, or that your faith is that strong – that you can read something like my book and not have it affect your faith.

If Christianity is true, then you have nothing to fear. But if Christianity is false, then you owe it to yourself to get the book. Either way you win.

And even if you blast my book after reading it here on this Blog, I’ll know that you read it, and just like poison takes time to work, all I have to do from then on is to wait for a personal crisis to kill your faith.

Want to give it a go? The way I see you reason here makes me think it’ll make your head spin with so many unanswerable questions that you won’t know what to do.

But that’s just me. I couldn’t answer these questions, so if you can, you’re a smarter man than I am, and that could well be. Are you? I think not, but that’s just me.

Yet one of John’s droning complaints about me is that I am way too confident! I never claimed that someone would inevitably become a Christian or a Catholic Christian upon reading any of my books or many online papers!

Even fellow atheists can see that John is acting like an ass. One (“amber”) wrote on John’s own blog:

Dave, as a bystander with no axe to grind, I agree John was being a jerk. I don’t know where he gets off ragging on you.

And for the record, I’m an atheist.

Another atheist wrote to me privately (today), and said that I was one of the few polite theists that he had come across. To top it off, in John’s latest insult-post, he makes it clear that he has no interest in dialogue with me (after previously almost begging me to interact with his material; on the problem of evil). All the more reason not to do a critique of his blessed apostate story:

Dave, there are just some people I don’t care to dialogue with and you are one of them, for various reasons I’ll not state. People can come to their own conclusions about why this is so. To me you are the Catholic mirror image of JP Holding [a Protestant apologist that John and his friends intensely dislike]. I can’t hear what you say because you offend me too much with your attitude.

Why you mentioned me at all in response to what Theresa said is beyond me. This is her Blog entry. DO NOT SIDETRACK IT ANYMORE WITH ANY MORE OFF-TOPIC COMMENTS! I’ll delete them if it’s not on topic.

I replied:

I’ll say whatever I want, as long as it is relevant to the subject matter, and/or factual (as that statement was). This is what free speech entails. If you don’t like it, then ban me. I won’t be muzzled by anyone (nor do I muzzle anyone on my blog). If I have insulted you at all, it is one-tenth as bad as all the crap you have thrown my way.

If you keep abiding by a double standard, I will be more than happy to keep pointing it out.

So tell me John: what is the purpose of my critiquing your book if you have no desire to dialogue? I couldn’t care less about the book (just as I imagine you care nothing about any of mine). If you refuse to interact with me about it (big surprise there!), you take away practically the only reason I would have to justify spending my time dealing with it.

[this post was promptly removed by John; so the censoring has already begun; perhaps he’ll reply here, where we allow free speech]

How personal insults against me are on-topic, either, is a great mystery: just one of many where John is concerned. His own “policy paper” on discussion on his blog states:

I invite people on as Team Members who have passion and who wish to test and defend their arguments in a public forum.

. . . Any intelligent comment that is relevant will be allowed here, so long as it’s not disrespectful of us as persons. . . . we reserve the right to ban anyone who abuses this forum by willfully mischaracterizing what we say in order to belittle us, or by personally attacking us.

. . . This Blog is an intelligent and friendly place to debate ideas in a mutually respectful environment.

We think that educated people can disagree agreeably. Only people not fully exposed to alternative ways of thinking will claim their opponents are stupid merely because they disagree.

. . . But we have no animosity toward Christian believers as people.

. . . We will do our best to treat our opponents with some dignity and respect, even if we do not believe what they are claiming. We choose to follow the Golden Rule, for the most part, . . .

All of this high and noble rhetoric about discussion ethics, yet John is on record describing me as all of the following (none yet retracted in the slightest):

You’re a joke. I’m surprised you have an audience. You’re also a psychologist, eh? Wow! . . . Again, you’re a joke.

To think you could pompously proclaim you are better than me is beyond me when you don’t know me. It’s a defensive mechanism you have with people like me.

It’s called respecting people as people, and Dave’s Christianity does not do that with people who don’t agree with him.

I’m just tired of pompous asses on the internet who go around claiming they are superior to me in terms of intelligence and faith. Such arrogance makes me vomit.

. . . self-assured arrogant idiots out there, like Dave, who prefer to proclaim off of my personal experience that they are better than I.

(all on 10-16-06)

You are ignorant

you present your uninformed arguments as if everyone should agree with you

Any educated person would not state the things you do with such arrogance.

with you there is no discussion to be had for any topic you write about.

You are the answer man. Everyone else is ignoring the obvious. And that’s the hallmark of an ignorant and uneducated man.

I am annoyed by people like you, . . . pompous self-righteous know-it-all’s

Now you are attempting to defend the arrogant way you argue.

You’re just right about everything, or, at least you always come across that way.

you are an uneducated, ignorant, arrogant know-it-all.

(all on 11-30-06)

2017-05-20T19:58:40-04:00

BibleCatholicism

[Pixabay released under Creative Commons CC0]

I was on “Meet the Author” with Ken Huck today, talking about my new book, Proving the Catholic Faith is Biblical. He had sent me ten questions, so I could prepare some notes for the interview. We covered maybe 7 or 8 of them in our 23 minutes, but even then I didn’t always use all the material for any given question, so I thought I would make a paper out of it. I spent about two hours preparing it.

* * * * *

1.  You are known as a Catholic apologist.  Many people misunderstand what an apologist does. You address this as your final essay in the book, but I want to talk about this up front.  What is a Catholic apologist?

It’s one who defends the Catholic faith, and tries to show that it is reasonable and plausible. It’s focused on reasons for faith. The word, “apologist” doesn’t mean “saying you’re sorry” all the time. The original meaning comes from Plato’s Apology, which was an account of the trial of Socrates in ancient Greece. He defended himself from false charges. So it had the connotation of elaborate self-defense, rather than “I was wrong and I’m sorry . . .” But even in our usage now, we often will give an explanation, when an apology is given. The same Greek word is a biblical term. It appears in 1 Peter 3:15 (a big passage for apologists). In RSV it reads: “Always be prepared to make a defense to anyone who calls you to account for the hope that is in you . . .”

One way apologists like to describe our work is to say that it removes roadblocks to faith or belief in particular doctrines. We seek to remove those difficulties and so help people be more assured and confident in their faith. But the main thing is always faith and God’s grace. It’s like that old saying: “you can bring a horse to water, but you can’t make it drink.” God’s grace enables a person to drink, so to speak. The apologists help to get the person to the place where they want to drink and understand why they should drink.

2.  Many of your books rely on the proving that Catholicism is in fact a very Biblically based faith.  Does this focus come out of your background as an Evangelical Christian?
Yes and no. It does in the sense that we tried to prove everything from the Bible, as Protestants. It was always front and center; so there is that influence from my past. I think it’s a very good influence, and I have written about how Catholics ought to read and understand the Bible a lot more than they do.

But it wasn’t why I actually became a Catholic (this was back in 1990). I had three main reasons: one moral and two historical ones:

1) the contraception issue,
2) development of doctrine,
3) studying the 16th century advent of Protestantism from both sides: not just reading Protestant accounts.
None of those reasons had much to do at all with biblical analysis or arguments. What happened was that I started writing after my conversion, to explain to my Protestant friends why I had become a Catholic, and to do that, the most sensible way is to use a lot of biblical support, because all Christians accept the inspiration of Scripture (and Protestants are always claiming that Catholic beliefs are so unbiblical). So I started writing long essays about major topics where Catholics have distinctive beliefs, over against Protestants, and that became my first book, A Biblical Defense of Catholicism. That was a bestseller, so I have written several more along the same lines, which were popular, too, but I do write about lots of other things, too; especially Church history. My current book follows the method that I am most known for.But showing how Catholicism is in harmony with the Bible is not the same as accepting the false notion of sola scriptura, or Bible Alone: the view that Scripture is the only infallible authority. It’s simply using a method of argument that Protestants will respect. If we quote to them papal encyclicals and ecumenical councils, it means little to them, because they aren’t accepted as their authority. You have to find common ground; or a common premise. So I specialize in Scripture because I specialize in outreach to Protestants, and that’s what they “hear.” St. Paul said, “I have become all things to all men, that by any means I might save some of them.”
3.  Maybe you can explain to our Catholic listeners why the Bible is so extremely important to many non-Catholic Christians?
They make it their entire rule of faith, or authority in terms of how they determine truth. They do that with very good reason: because it’s God’s inspired revelation, and we fully agree with them about that. But Catholics think it’s an incomplete rule of faith, and that you have to also have an authoritative Church and tradition, within which correct interpretation of the Bible can happen. It’s when you deny the authority of the Church and apostolic tradition, that you get hundreds of competing theologies. I always say that when contradictions are present, someone’s gonna be wrong, and that the devil is the father of lies and falsehood.

The myth is that all we have to do is read the Bible, and it’ll be so crystal clear to anyone who is willing to accept it, that all will agree, and there will be a wonderful harmony. Luther talked about how a plowboy can understand Scripture. I agree that Scripture is clear in many things; yet well-intentioned, holy people have disagreed about a lot of doctrines. The history of Protestantism has shown that! We still need an authoritative guide in order to have unity.
4.  Let’s talk about the new book.  It is a series of short essays.  Tell us about how the book is arranged?
The idea was to deal with each topic in a very concise manner: hitting the major points about it, and to show how the Bible supports the Catholic position. Many of the chapters came from articles that I had written for two magazines or newspapers: The Michigan Catholic and Seton Magazine (which is a homeschooling publication). Those were either 800 or  1000 words, so they fit right into the plan for this book. Some of the chapters are even shorter than that: just one or two pages. I was just trying to present something about each topic that would make people think or challenge them, or maybe be something “new”: if indeed there are any apologetics argument that are actually new. Usually someone else thought of it hundreds of years ago.

Of course, we’re in an age where people like quick, easy, instant answers; Twitter and the sound byte and so forth. My natural tendency and preference is to write at length about things, but apologists have to recognize what their audience wants, and so I now have five books that provide “short” answers, like The One-Minute Apologist (also with Sophia Institute Press), and The New Catholic Answer Bible (from Our Sunday Visitor). 
5. With your extensive experience as an apologist do these 80 areas cover most of the most common objections that non-Catholic Christians have toward Catholicism?
That’s what I tried to do. Most of them came originally from papers I had written for my website, either from dialoguing with Protestants or replying to some claim they made. My emphasis is usually on how a Protestant would think about theological issues, and what would convince them that the Catholic Church had the correct answer.
But I had a few, too, that were mostly replies to atheists or what I would call  “philosophical defense,” such as chapters called, “A Perfect God Creating an Imperfect World” and “Can God be Blamed for the Nazi Holocaust?” I sort of negotiated with the publisher to keep those in (even though they weren’t strictly “biblical”) because I thought it was important to hit upon the Problem of Evil, which a lot of people (including lots of Christians) struggle with.
6. Tell us about a few of the essay subjects, and the Catholic biblical defense?
Here’s a few in a nutshell. Protestants often say that we shouldn’t call priests “Father” because Jesus said, “call no man your father” (Mt 23:9). But passages have to be understood in context, and in relation to other similar passages. Jesus was using hyperbole or exaggeration, as He often did. The argument I made was that it couldn’t be an absolute prohibition since Jesus Himself referred to “your father Abraham” (Jn 8:56). James 2:21 also refers to “Abraham our father.” St. Paul used the same title for Abraham twice in Romans 4, called Isaac “our forefather” in Romans 9:10, and called himself a “father” to his followers (1 Corinthians 4:15). It’s a classic example of how you can’t just use one supposed “prooftext” in isolation.
Another argument that I think is kind of fun is concerning worship of God through images. Now, many Protestants (esp. Calvinists) tell us that this is absolutely not permitted, and is idolatry, like worshiping the Golden Calf (remember that in the old Ten Commandments movie with Charlton Heston?). The problem is that this is not an absolute in Scripture. In the Old Testament, we see that God revealed Himself in a pillar of cloud and of fire, when the Hebrews were wandering through the wilderness. That is an image, and it is physical matter (water vapor and fire). We also have a passage in Exodus 33:9-11. Part of that reads: “when all the people saw the pillar of cloud standing at the door of the tent, all the people would rise up and worship.” Likewise, in 2 Chronicles 7:1-4, it talks about the “glory of the Lord” descending upon the temple. That was either fire or a cloud , so it says that when the children of Israel saw that, “they bowed down with their faces to the earth on the pavement, and worshiped.” Sounds sort of like eucharistic adoration, doesn’t it?
Another chapter was about biblical analogies for Marian apparitions. I gave several examples, like Samuel appearing to Saul, right before the latter was killed, the prophet Daniel’s extensive visions, Moses and Elijah appearing at the transfiguration (I got to visit that spot last October; it’s amazing), and Paul having a vision in Acts 16:9 where he saw a man saying, “Come over to Macedonia and help us.” I love finding stuff like that, where it’s a little out of the ordinary. So the argument is that there are instances of visions or appearances that are not unlike Marian apparitions.
7.  One of my favorite subjects is the arguments for the Authority of the Church.  What I find interesting, is that many Protestants come into the Church because of the authority.  In other words, they see the fracturing of Christianity because of the last of authority.  So perhaps this topic is as much for Catholics who reject Church authority, but explain the Biblical basis for Church authority.
That’s one of my own favorite chapters (chapter 8), called, “Three Biblical Arguments for the Authority of the Church.” Briefly, they are Matthew 16:18-19, where Jesus gives St. Peter the keys of the Church, which he calls “My Church”, says that the devil won’t prevail against it (what we call indefectibility of the Church), and gives priests the power to bind and loose, which means imposing penance and granting absolution. 

The second is one I love to bring up in debates. In Acts 16:4 it says that St. Paul in his missionary preaching, went around and “delivered to them for observance the decisions which had been reached by the apostles and elders who were at Jerusalem.” That is the Jerusalem Council, which is described in Acts 15. That is sublime Church authority. Everyone was bound to these decisions. It’s as far from Scripture alone as can be imagined.

The third is 1 Timothy 3:15: “the church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth.” When you unpack the meaning of that, it’s a very strong argument. The Church can’t be a “pillar” of the truth without containing all truth (in other words, being infallible). And that is a Catholic notion: one that Protestants have to grapple with.
8.  What is one of the most common challenges you hear as an apologist?
From Protestants, it is that the Catholic Church contradicts the Bible (hence, my specialty, showing that it does not). From atheists, it’s the problem of evil. From Catholics, it’s usually complaints about the Church and people in it. The answer to that is to note that there have always been sinners in the Church, as seen in the early churches of the Corinthians and Galatians, and the seven churches of Revelation that Jesus roundly rebuked. If we’re all sinners, then obviously there will be sinners in the Church, including her leaders!
9.  In recent years the existence of Hell has fallen out of favor with Christians, and many seem to think that if Hell exists then only Hitler and a couple other people actually end up there.  What does the Bible say?
In Matthew 25 is pretty decisive. It’s about judgment day and God is separating the sheep and the goats. Matthew 25:46 couldn’t be any clearer than it is: “And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” It states similarly in Revelation about the Lake of Fire, which is hell, and its eternal torments. There is also the theme of the “book of life,” and passages say that people whose name are in it go to heaven. If someone’s name isn’t in it (some passages say names are “blotted out”), they will go to hell, by their own choice of rejection of God. Jesus also talked about “narrow is the way, and few who find it,” implying that a lot of people will be lost. There is a lot of misunderstanding of hell. It’s always a big topic. But we can pray for any individual to be saved, and should desire that all men be saved (like God does), even while knowing that they won’t be in fact, because of their rebellion.
10. Many RCIA programs are just beginning for the year.  I know a lot of people who are in RCIA may come from other faith traditions and continue to have reservations that the Church is faithful to scripture.  I think this book would be an excellent resource to give to someone is that position, or as a resource for RCIA instructors to help answer those hard questions?  What do you think?
You won’t get any disagreement from me about that! I think also that my book, The One-Minute Apologist (2007) would serve the same purpose. It has about sixty topics: each dealt with in two pages, in a standard format and structure somewhat similar to the Summa Theologica of St. Thomas Aquinas. My current book seeks to be accessible to a wide variety of readers, making the arguments in a straightforward and concise fashion, while still providing readers with something to think about and ponder in each chapter. I’m trying to write to the common man, the person considering Catholicism (especially its biblical basis), and ones who love the Bible as I do, and who like to learn as much about it as they can.

 

2017-05-21T16:44:16-04:00

AngryMan5

[Pixabay /  CC0 Public Domain]

This exchange took place in the combox of my post, Why Did a Perfect God Create an Imperfect World? The words of “MountainDewFan4” will be in blue.

* * * * *

So many people think they could do a better job at being God than God does. Atheists love to do this; but not a few Christians fall into the same foolish trap, too.

OK, I can agree that god can not create perfect humans. Otherwise they would also be gods … but why didn’t he do a better job might be a good question. 
Humans are not perfect … but they are FAR, FAR, FAR from perfect. 
Why are there birth defects?
Why do people get cancer?
Why are some people very smart while others aren’t?
Why do people die?
Why are some people capable of rape and murder?
Why was my former boss such a jerk?
Why are people hungry in the U.S. and across the planet?
Why do so many people get depressed?
Why can’t humans fly?
Why can’t humans grow back limbs?
Why do hawks have better vision than humans, and dogs have better smelling abilities than humans? Why didn’t god give humans the “best” stuff?

It would appear that this “Perfect” god, really didn’t do a very good job creating his people.

Again, original sin / the fall explains much of human evil, that we commit against each other. We’re fallen; we have a propensity to sin, temptations to do it, adverse influences from our surroundings. And so we sin.

In Christian theology, God gives us power to overcome these things and do much better. He gives us grace through the sacraments (physical means of obtaining God’s grace, which is powerful to counter sin). He gives us the Holy Spirit to live inside of us and help us. He gives us the Church and fellow believers and family and friends to guide and encourage and love us. There is prayer; there is intercession of others.

These are the means of improvement, if only we would avail ourselves of them. Many do not (many can’t even figure out that there is a God and that Christianity is true), and so, how can they improve their fallen state?

I don’t need to answer every single question you raise. Most are caused by our fallenness. The natural world has consequences that can be harmful, because of its very nature. If we fall off a building, we’ll get hurt, because the ground is hard underneath. What is God supposed to do? Change the ground to jelly just because we’re falling on it? Then the world would be unpredictable and we couldn’t do things like science (that requires a principle or presupposition of uniformitarianism), which has made life easier and helped people live more comfortably (esp. medical science).

You wanna foolishly blame God for cancer. My father and mother both died of lung cancer. My father was a smoker. We know through science that this directly leads to lung cancer. So he acted stupidly and caused his own final illness. My mother never smoked, but they say second-hand smoke can be very harmful. So maybe I’ll be blessed by that, too, and die of lung cancer, due to someone else’s stupidity; not my own. I’ve never smoked a cigarette in my life. You blame God for what (in this case) was clearly caused by human stupidity and unwillingness to modify behavior. How is that God’s fault? You tell me.

People blame God for the Nazi Holocaust. For Pete’s sake; that whole thing could have easily been prevented if the world had simply listened to Winston Churchill’s warnings, all through the 30s. It’s as simple as that! But they preferred to pretend everything was fine, and put their heads in the sand, all the way up to 1940, even after Hitler had invaded Poland. Now we’re letting Iran get nuclear weapons. We never learn. Malcolm Muggeridge was also warning everyone in the 1930s that Stalin was in the process of starving ten million Ukrainians. No one wanted to listen. The liberals of the time were infatuated with Uncle Joe Stalin, who could do no wrong. Is all this God’s fault, too? Or were people stupid and willfully blind to reality?

You bring up hunger and blame God for that. There is plenty of food on the earth to feed everyone: probably several times over. So why do people starve? Again, human stupidity and greed . . . We know that several governments act in ways that are directly causing hunger: keeping food from people.

That happened (to give two clear examples) in the Irish Famine in the 1840s and in the Ukraine in the 1930s (just alluded to). Communism and socialism bring it about because they are empty-headed economic systems. So why are you so foolish to imply for a second that this is God’s fault? He has given us the wisdom to produce food. If we’d stop sinning and being stupid in our governments and economic systems, there’d be plenty to go around. Or is the evil and stupidity of Stalinism and British oppression of the Irish somehow God’s fault, too?

Can’t you figure these things out without me pointing it out to you? Your list may look very impressive at first glance, but when we start to closely examine it, it’s a very different story.

One thing I know for sure. I’d rather have all these things in a world with God, where they may be sometimes difficult to understand, but where we know God loves us (suffered and died for us!) and has heaven waiting for us if we follow Him; as opposed to a godless universe where nothing has any meaning at bottom and there is no ultimate hope: only death and a despairing, nihilistic sad finality to everything.

That is the really thorny, disturbing problem: the “problem of good“,  which is far more of a difficulty than the problem of evil (the most respectable criticism of theism and Christianity).

That was a very well written and well thought out response.

I”m not saying that all of these things are “God’s fault”. What I’m saying is why doesn’t god do anything to prevent or fix these things?

You state that people there is plenty of food, it’s just people’s greed that causes others to starve.

Well, my point is … if God is so powerful, and so loving … why can’t he do something about that? Why can’t he snap his fingers and make corn grow in Ethiopia?

Here is a question for you. Suppose a man had a son who was in pain and slowly dying. The man never calls a doctor, never gives his son medicine, yet every day his son gets worse and worse. This man does nothing to alleviate his son’s pain, he does instead sits back and watches his child just wither away and DIE !!! What kind of a father would do that? What kind of cruel being would do that???

I’ll tell you exactly what kind of being would do that …. God. This is exactly what your God does EVERY SINGLE DAY! He is supposedly “ALL POWERFUL” … yet he DOES NOT use any of this supposed Power to actually Help his children. He does not use this power to end the suffering of his children …. instead, he just sits back and watches them suffer and slowly wither away and die.

Either this God is not All Loving, not All Powerful … or doesn’t exist.

Glad you liked the response and thanks for your kind comment about it.

“What I’m saying is why doesn’t god do anything to prevent or fix these things?”

He’s under no more obligation to repair everything that we’ve made a mess out of than a parent is to fix and repair every silly thing a child does. At some point the child has to learn to be responsible and live life without mommy or daddy holding his or her hand every moment. Likewise, with God and us. He gave us the ability and knowledge to solve almost all of the problems you cite. Therefore, it is absurd to keep blaming Him for our mistakes.

Yes, God could do any number of miracles and solve the problems that we create in our sin and rebellion (occasionally He does when He deems it purposeful to do so). I don’t see how that would help us. We would never learn responsibility or proper stewardship of what He has given us if God became a big “cosmic Santa Claus” in the sky. Atheists mock us for believing such things, then when God doesn’t live up to what they think He should be, they (quite ironically and comically) propose even more “cosmic Santa Claus” than the caricature of Christianity that we (in their eyes) supposedly believe.

Now God is supposed to (in order to please atheists’ never-ending irrational demands) prevent or immediately resolve every single calamity that is conceivable to the mind of man or that actually happens. He just swoops down and changes the sharp knife edge to jelly and the speeding bullet to gas. And we supposedly live in Fantasy-Land?

2017-05-21T16:50:23-04:00

Leprechaun

Leprechaun, by Ignacio Leo [Wikimedia Commons  /  Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike 3.0 Unported license]

This was a discussion in one of my comboxes, under my post, Why Did a Perfect God Create an Imperfect World?

* * * * *

Mark MooreI have heard students of Lord of the Rings, Star Trek and other fictional tales discuss them in a similar way, parsing the language, making inferences. Arguing over what an orc or a Klingon might or might not do. Logic without testing in the physical universe can lead to any fancy one would want. It is easy to prove leprechauns exist when you don’t have to find and present them – I have one sitting here beside me now – anyone care to prove that I don’t? He is just a real as any god.

momtarkleWe seem to agree on one thing: Things are. After that ,we disagree. You say that things are, because God. (An omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent, and necessarily Christian God.) I say that I know of no evidence of your, or any other, God, so I cannot accept the belief that there is one. If I do find out why things are, I’ll let you know.

Christianity has plenty of empirical indications in its favor. See. e.g., “Two Dozen (or So) Theistic Arguments,” by the eminent Christian philosopher Alvin Plantinga. This particular piece of mine presupposed that God exists and goes on to deal with an aspect of the problem of evil. I wasn’t trying to prove that God exists.

Next thing you’ll bring up Santa Claus, the tooth fairy, and the Easter bunny. It’s a fun game (ha ha ha), but only shows how fundamentally silly and desperate many atheist arguments are.

The fact remains that many very bright, sharp people, including thousands of brilliant scientists and philosophers have believed in God. There is far, far more to theism than the silly atheist comparisons. We’re not all gullible anti-scientific, non-rational idiots, believe it or not.

Not to mention that atheism, closely examined, involves far more leaps of faith and fantastic beliefs than Christianity ever has. See, e.g., a recent piece I did (that ruffled a ton of feathers and created a huge big stink: almost wholly because of misunderstanding the very nature of my argument and humor): Atheism: the Faith of “Atomism.”

Lastly, it is impossible to absolutely prove that you exist. Yet you casually assume that you do. You can’t absolutely prove that Australia or Manitoba or Andorra exist: at least without having witnessed them yourself. You take their existence as facts because others have testified to it. Yet this is precisely the same sort of data that the Bible provides us with in the case of Jesus. People saw Him, witnessed His miracles, and met Him after He came back from the dead.

Atheists foolishly think they overcome such evidence by simply dismissing the very possibility of miraculous occurrences beforehand, which is an arbitrary piece of logic, apart from empirical observation and testing, precisely like what you condemn above.

God has given us plenty of ways to overcome them, as I noted in another post. We can second-guess God all we like and try to figure Him out, or we can start following His advice and have a much more happy, joyful life.

We have to exercise faith and trust. We’ll never figure everything out about God, anymore than we can figure everything out about His creation. Science still doesn’t have the foggiest idea of how the universe began, how life began, how DNA began . . . They study and seek (and that’s fun and informative), but they don’t yet know. Why, then, do we think we can figure out a God Who is (as we believe) omniscient? It’s absurd to think that we can (assuming acceptance of Christian beliefs about Him).

We can seek and try to learn all we can, of course, but it shouldn’t be a stumbling-block or cause a lack of faith and joy, let alone unbelief.

2017-05-21T17:21:00-04:00

CreationBlake

The Ancient of Days (William Blake, 1794) [public domain / Wikimedia Commons]

When God creates, what He creates is already less perfect than He is, just by the fact that it is created, whereas He is eternal and uncreated. So, for example, human beings are not omniscient, or omnipotent, or omnipresent, as God is. They’re not absolutely perfect, and indeed cannot be, since there is only one God, Who is perfect and self-existent, needing nothing whatsoever. Human beings are limited in knowledge and ability. This is what caused the fall: they did what was not best for them, for lack of knowledge and faith in God.

The fallacy in the atheist premise is that paradise was “perfect.” It wasn’t because it wasn’t God. It was without sin at first and was “good”, but the limitations were there, causing the rebellion and fall.

The basic problem is that there is 1) God and 2) everything else that is not God. What is not God can never be equal to God, and even God can’t make it so. God can’t create a second God, because that wouldn’t be God: not being eternal and self-existent.

All (in this alleged “conundrum”) depends on what “perfect” means. God created the angels, and they had a choice to sin or not sin. Most of them chose not to, and have remained that way ever since. Some, including Satan, chose to rebel against God. Most of what causes pain and suffering is because of man’s sin, and the rest is due to the fixed nature of the physical world (if you fall off a building, matter is hard, and so you die). That’s not God’s fault at all. If we have physical matter, and some of it is sharp or hard, sometimes people will get hurt.

Mary was specially graced by God with the Immaculate Conception, so that she didn’t sin. Otherwise, she would have fallen like the rest of us.

It is one world that is fallen, and being redeemed by God through the cross: not two worlds, which is the heresy of gnosticism: holding that matter is evil.

Nothing is absolutely perfect that isn’t God.

Christianity doesn’t reduce to philosophy. It is a religious faith. That doesn’t mean that it is against reason, but it transcends it: it’s not identical to philosophy or reason; it’s much more than that. Faith is a gift from God and requires grace.

Many atheists just want to play games when it comes to discussions of Christianity. I’ve talked to many dozens of them. It’s usually not a serious discussion. They simply try to “trap” the Christian and make Christianity and Christians look silly (so they can feel better in their self-delusion of atheism, and feel mentally “superior”). That’s child’s play, not serious thinking or seeking of truth.

None of this gibberish about “imperfect worlds” disproves anything about God or Christianity at all. But atheists just keep coming back with more fallacious arguments, based on false premises. If we “solve” one problem (or get them to be speechless: a rare moment!), they simply come up with another “objection” in their bag of tricks. I’ve been through the routine, myself, a hundred times.

Just because we Christians may not always have a ready answer for the atheist’s relentless questioning doesn’t prove anything. Atheists also don’t have answers for many things. I have “cornered” them in logic many times where they didn’t have an answer. It works both ways. But the bottom line is not to “trap” someone but to share truth with them and get them to see what is false.

The really serious problem is not the problem of evil, but the “problem of good”: how does one define “good” without a God?

I’ve written a book about atheism, and one about Christianity and science. And I have web pages about atheism and Philosophy and Science.

2025-06-18T10:22:11-04:00

Maxwell

Engraving of the great Scottish physicist James Clerk Maxwell (1831-1879) by G. J. Stodart from a photograph by Fergus of Greenock. Maxwell was a devout Presbyterian, and formulated the classical theory of electromagnetic radiation, bringing together for the first time electricity, magnetism, and light as manifestations of the same phenomenon. His discoveries helped usher in the era of modern physics, laying the foundation for such fields as special relativity and quantum mechanics. His contributions to the science are considered by many to be of the same magnitude as those of Isaac Newton and Albert Einstein. [public domain / Wikimedia Commons]

*****

TABLE OF CONTENTS

***

Philosophy

I. GENERAL / EPISTEMOLOGY / PHILOSOPHY OF RELIGION

II. THE PROBLEM OF EVIL / SUFFERING

III. THE “PROBLEM OF GOOD”

IV. EDUCATION / HOMESCHOOLING

Theistic Arguments

V. THE COSMOLOGICAL ARGUMENT (BIG BANG, ETC.)

VI. THE TELEOLOGICAL ARGUMENT (DESIGN) 

VII. THE ONTOLOGICAL ARGUMENT
VIII. MISCELLANEOUS
Science
IX. GALILEO
X. EARLY MODERN SCIENCE AND ITS RELATIONSHIP TO RELIGION
XI. PHILOSOPHY OF SCIENCE / SCIENTIFIC METHOD
XII. BIBLE, CHRISTIANITY, AND SCIENCE ISSUES

XIII. NOAH AND THE FLOOD

XIV. CLIMATE CHANGE / GLOBAL WARMING ISSUE
XV. THE KOOKY FUNDAMENTALIST REVIVAL OF GEOCENTRISM
XVI. MIRACLES 
XVII. CORONAVIRUS PANDEMIC
*** 
***

PHILOSOPHY 

 
I. GENERAL / EPISTEMOLOGY / PHILOSOPHY OF RELIGION
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Did Jesus Use “Socratic Method” in His Teaching? [National Catholic Register, 4-29-19]
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Apologetics = Anti-Faith or Absolute “Certainty”? (Or, “Does Christianity Reduce to Mere Philosophy or Rationalism?”) [7-5-20]
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II. THE PROBLEM OF EVIL / SUFFERING
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Problem of Evil: Treatise on the Most Serious Objection (Is God Malevolent, Weak, or Non-Existent Because of the Existence of Evil and Suffering?) [2002]
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The Problem of Evil: Dialogue with an Atheist (vs. “drunken tune”) [10-11-06]
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God, the Natural World and Pain [National Catholic Register, 9-19-20]
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Is God Mostly to Blame for the Holocaust? [National Catholic Register, 5-31-21]
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III. THE “PROBLEM OF GOOD”
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IV. EDUCATION / HOMESCHOOLING
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Homeschooling: Response to Kevin Johnson’s Criticisms [7-12-05]

On Homeschooling & Dilapidated Public Education [1-3-09]  

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THEISTIC ARGUMENTS
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V. THE COSMOLOGICAL ARGUMENT (BIG BANG, ETC.)
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A Variation of the First Way of Thomas Aquinas (+ Part II / Part III) (Dr. Dennis Bonnette) [1982]

How “Creation” Implies God (Dr. Dennis Bonnette) [1985]

Atheism: the Faith of “Atomism” [8-19-15]

Cosmological Argument for God (Resources) [10-23-15]

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Creation Ex Nihilo is in the Bible [National Catholic Register, 10-1-20]
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VI. THE TELEOLOGICAL ARGUMENT (DESIGN) 
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Quantum Mechanics and the “Upholding” Power of God [National Catholic Register, 11-24-20]
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Star of Bethlehem, Astronomy, Wise Men, & Josephus (Amazing Astronomically Verified Data in Relation to the Journey of the Wise Men  & Jesus’ Birth & Infancy) [12-14-20]
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VII. THE ONTOLOGICAL ARGUMENT
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VIII. MISCELLANEOUS
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SCIENCE
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IX. GALILEO
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X. EARLY MODERN SCIENCE AND ITS RELATIONSHIP TO RELIGION
 
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Astrology: Philip Melanchthon’s Enthusiastic Espousal [5-21-06]

Did St. Thomas Aquinas Accept Astrology? [5-30-06]

16th-17th Century Astronomers Loved Astrology (+ Part Two) [5-25-06]

Martin Luther, John Calvin, and Philip Melanchthon Wax Astronomical and Geocentric, Oppose Copernicus [2-5-09]

Christianity: Crucial to the Origin of Science [8-1-10]

Scientific & Empiricist Church Fathers: To Augustine (d. 430) [2010]

Christian Influence on Science: Master List of Scores of Bibliographical and Internet Resources (Links) [8-4-10]

33 Empiricist Christian Thinkers Before 1000 AD [8-5-10]

23 Catholic Medieval Proto-Scientists: 12th-13th Centuries [2010]

Who Killed Lavoisier: “Father of Chemistry”? [8-13-10]

Christians or Theists Founded 115 Scientific Fields [8-20-10]

John Calvin Assumes a Non-Spherical Earth & Severely Mocks Plato for Believing that the Earth is a Globe [9-4-12]

St. Augustine: Astrology is Absurd [9-4-15]

Catholics & Science #1: Hermann of Reichenau [10-21-15]

Catholics & Science #2: Adelard of Bath [10-21-15]

Science and Christianity (Copious Resources) [11-3-15]

Dialogue with an Agnostic on Catholicism and Science [9-12-16]

A List of 244 Priest-Scientists [Angelo Stagnaro, National Catholic Register, 11-29-16]

A Short List of [152] Lay Catholic Scientists [Angelo Stagnaro, National Catholic Register, 12-30-16]

Science, Logic, & Math Start with Unfalsifiable Axioms [1-6-18]

Seidensticker Folly #44: Historic Christianity & Science [8-29-20]

Exclusive Empirical Epistemology?: Dialogue w Atheist [2-25-19]

Modern Science is Built on a Christian Foundation [National Catholic Register, 5-6-20]

The ‘Enlightenment’ Inquisition Against Great Scientists [National Catholic Register, 5-13-20]

Embarrassing Errors of Historical Science [National Catholic Register, 5-20-20]

Scientism — the Myth of Science as the Sum of Knowledge [National Catholic Register, 5-28-20]

Seidensticker Folly #59: Medieval Hospitals & Medicine [11-3-20]

Seidensticker Folly #60: Anti-Intellectual Medieval Christians? [11-4-20]

Medieval Christian Medicine Was the Forerunner of Modern Medicine [National Catholic Register, 11-13-20]

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XI. PHILOSOPHY OF SCIENCE / SCIENTIFIC METHOD

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Albert Einstein’s “Cosmic Religion”: In His Own Words [originally 2-17-03; expanded greatly on 8-26-10]
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Flat Earth: Biblical Teaching? (vs. Ed Babinski) [9-17-06]
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Did Darwin Prove Genesis a Fairy Tale? (Dr. Dennis Bonnette) [2007]
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Must Human Evolution Contradict Genesis?  (Dr. Dennis Bonnette) [2007]
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Historicity of Adam and Eve [9-23-11; rev. 1-6-22]
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Modern Biology and Original Sin (+ Part 2) (Dr. Edward Feser) [9-23-11]
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Time to Abandon the Genesis Story? [Dr. Dennis Bonnette, Homiletic and Pastoral Review, 7-10-14]
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Origin of the Human Species (3rd edition, 2014, by Dr. Dennis Bonnette)
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A List of 244 Priest-Scientists (Angelo Stagnaro, National Catholic Register, 11-29-16)
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Reflections on Joshua and “the Sun Stood Still” [National Catholic Register, 10-22-20]
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Quantum Mechanics and the “Upholding” Power of God [National Catholic Register, 11-24-20]
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Dark Energy, Dark Matter and the Light of the World [National Catholic Register, 2-17-21]
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The Theory of Evolution & Catholicism [Ch. 10 of my book, Reflections on Radical Catholic Reactionaries (December 2002; revised in November 2023 for the purpose of the free online version) ] [11-22-23]
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XIII. NOAH AND THE FLOOD

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Old Earth, Flood Geology, Local Flood, & Uniformitarianism (vs. Kevin Rice) [5-25-04; many defunct links removed and new ones added: 5-10-17]

Adam & Eve, Cain, Abel, & Noah: Historical Figures [2-20-08]

Noah’s Flood and Catholicism: Important Basic Facts [8-18-15]

Do Carnivores on the Ark Disprove Christianity? [9-10-15]

New Testament Evidence for Noah’s Existence [National Catholic Register, 3-11-18]

Seidensticker Folly #49: Noah & 2 or 7 Pairs of Animals [9-7-20]

Pearce’s Potshots #36: Noah’s Flood: 40 or 150 Days or Neither? [7-1-21]

Pearce’s Potshots #37: Length of Noah’s Flood Redux [7-2-21]

Local Flood & Atheist Ignorance of Christian Thought [7-2-21]

Pearce’s Potshots #38: Chiasmus & “Redundancy” in Flood Stories (Also, a Summary Statement on Catholics and the Documentary Hypothesis) [7-4-21]

Local Mesopotamian Flood: An Apologia [7-9-21]

Noah’s Flood: Not Anthropologically Universal + Miscellany [10-5-21]

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XIV. CLIMATE CHANGE / GLOBAL WARMING ISSUE
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XV. THE KOOKY FUNDAMENTALIST REVIVAL OF GEOCENTRISM
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(comprehensive website run by David Palm)
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Does the Church Support Robert Sungenis’ Novel Theories? (Jonathan Field) (+ Part Two) [11-8-10, at Internet Archive]
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Geocentrism: Not at All an Infallible Dogma of the Catholic Church (David Palm and “Jordanes”) [11-20-10, at Internet Archive]
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Actress Kate Mulgrew Says she Was Duped Regarding her Narration of the Geocentrist Film, The Principle [Karl Keating article and Facebook discussion and media links, 4-8-14]
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XVI. MIRACLES 
 
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Biblical and Historical Evidences for Raising the Dead [9-24-07; revised for National Catholic Register, 2-8-19]
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My oldest son Paul was healed of serious back and neck problems [You Tube video testimony linked on Facebook, 8-28-18]
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Reflections on Joshua and “the Sun Stood Still” [National Catholic Register, 10-22-20]
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Moses, Science, and Water from Rocks [Catholic365, 11-18-23]
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XVII. CORONAVIRUS PANDEMIC 
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[For related reading, see: Atheism, Agnosticism, and Secularism Page]

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Practical Matters:  I run the most comprehensive “one-stop” Catholic apologetics site: rated #1 for Christian sites by leading AI tool, ChatGPT — endorsed by popular Protestant blogger Adrian Warnock. Perhaps some of my 5,000+ free online articles or fifty-six books have helped you (by God’s grace) to decide to become Catholic or to return to the Church, or better understand some doctrines and why we believe them. If you believe my full-time apostolate is worth supporting, please seriously consider a much-needed monthly or one-time financial contribution. “The laborer is worthy of his wages” (1 Tim 5:18, NKJV).
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PayPal donations are the easiest: just send to my email address: [email protected]. Here’s also a second page to get to PayPal. You’ll see the term “Catholic Used Book Service”, which is my old side-business. To learn about the different methods of contributing (including Zelle and 100% tax-deductible donations if desired), see my page: About Catholic Apologist Dave Armstrong / Donation Information.
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You can support my work a great deal in non-financial ways, if you prefer; by subscribing to, commenting on, liking, and sharing videos from my two YouTube channels, Catholic Bible Highlights and Lux Veritatis (featuring documentaries), where I partner with Kenny Burchard (see my own videos), and/or by signing up to receive notice for new articles on this blog. Just type your email address on the sidebar to the right (scroll down quite a bit), where you see, “Sign Me Up!” Thanks a million!
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Last updated on 18 June 2025
***
2025-05-01T12:47:56-04:00

Stalin2
Portrait of young Joseph Stalin (1878-1953): one of history’s most famous and notorious atheists (I’m not sayin’ all atheists are like him!), from the Stalin Museum in Gori, Georgia. Photo by Adam Jones (6-4-15). He was responsible for some 20 million deaths, according to historian Robert Conquest [Flickr / CC BY-SA 2.0 license]
***
FEATURED:
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TABLE OF CONTENTS
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I. GENERAL
II. THE PROBLEM OF EVIL 
III. THE “PROBLEM OF GOOD”
IV. AARON ADAIR
V. LIBBY ANNE
VI. “ANTHROTHEIST”
VII. “AXELBEINGCIVIL”
VIII. ED BABINSKI
IX. RICHARD CARRIER
X. NEIL CARTER
XI. STEVE CONIFER
XII. VEXEN CRABTREE
XIII. JON CURRY
XIV. “DAGOODS”
XV. RICHARD DAWKINS [THE GOD DELUSION]
XVI. TED DRANGE
XVII. BART EHRMAN
XVIII. “EPRONOVOST”
XIX. “ERIC”
XX. JD EVELAND
XXI. STEWART JAMES FELKER
XXII. “GRIMLOCK”
XXIII. “GUSBOVONA”
XXIV. “HELENINEDINBURGH”
XXV. ADAM LEE
XXVI. LEX LATA
XXVII. JOHN LOFTUS [DEBUNKING CHRISTIANITY BLOG]
XXVIII. DR. DAVID MADISON
XXIX. JONATHAN M. S. PEARCE
XXX. “PROF MTH” (MITCH) 
XXXI. WARD RICKER
XXXII. DR. JAN SCHREURS
XXXIII. BOB SEIDENSTICKER [CROSS EXAMINED BLOG]
XXXIV. SUSAN STRANDBERG
XXXV. EXTENSIVE COLLECTIONS OF SCHOLARLY LINKS DEALING WITH THE QUESTIONS AND CHALLENGES OF ATHEISTS
XXXVI. CHRISTIANITY, ATHEISM, SCIENCE, AND PHILOSOPHY
XXXVII. ANTI-THEISM AND THE SUB-GROUP OF “ANGRY ATHEISTS”
XXXVIII. MIRACLES
XXXIX. COMMON GROUND / CONCILIATORY APPROACHES 
XL. GOD (ATHEIST OBSESSION WITH THE SUPPOSEDLY NONEXISTENT) 
XLI. ABORTION / ANIMAL RIGHTS 
XLII. SEX, MARRIAGE, AND WOMEN
XLIII. SECULARISM AND SOCIETY
XLIV. “THE BUTCHER AND THE HOG”: THE ATHEIST APPROACH TO THE BIBLE
XLV. ATHEIST “DECONVERSIONS”
XLVI. FAMOUS ATHEISTS (REAL AND IMAGINED) 
***
***
I. GENERAL
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The Class Struggle [cartoon tract; art by Dan Grajek, 1985]
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Silent Night: A “Progressive” and “Enlightened” Reinterpretation [12-10-04; additionally edited for publication at National Catholic Register: 12-21-17]
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Clarifications Regarding My Atheist Reductio Paper (referring to the immediately preceding, vastly misunderstood satirical piece) [8-20-15]
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Dialogue with an Atheist on First Premises (vs. Ben McGrew) [9-17-15]
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Yes, Virginia, Atheists Have a Worldview [National Catholic Register, 3-23-21]
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II. THE PROBLEM OF EVIL  
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Problem of Evil: Treatise on the Most Serious Objection(Is God Malevolent, Weak, or Non-Existent Because of the Existence of Evil and Suffering?) [2002]
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The Problem of Evil: Dialogue with an Atheist (vs. “drunken tune”) [10-11-06]
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God, the Natural World and Pain [National Catholic Register, 9-19-20]
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[see more in the “Problem of Evil” section of my Philosophy & Science web page]
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III. THE “PROBLEM OF GOOD”
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VI. “ANTHROTHEIST”
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VII. “AXELBEINGCIVIL”
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Dialogue w Atheist on the Borders of Science & Theology [1-16-23]
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VIII. ED BABINSKI
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XI. STEVE CONIFER
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XII. VEXEN CRABTREE
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XIV. “DAGOODS”
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XV. RICHARD DAWKINS [THE GOD DELUSION]
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XVI. TED DRANGE
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XVII. BART EHRMAN
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XVIII. “EPRONOVOST”
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XX. JD EVELAND
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XXIII. “GUSBOVONA”
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XXIV. “HELENINEDINBURGH”
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XXV. ADAM LEE
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XXVI. LEX LATA
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XXVII. JOHN LOFTUS [DEBUNKING CHRISTIANITY BLOG]
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XXVIII. DR. DAVID MADISON
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XXIX. JONATHAN M. S. PEARCE
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How Anti-Theist Atheists “Argue” Online (I.e., Insult) (Examples from Pearce’s Blog) [3-18-21]
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XXX. “PROF MTH” (MITCH) 
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XXXI. WARD RICKER
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XXXII. DR. JAN SCHREURS
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Dialogue w Agnostic: Relativist vs. Absolute Morality (vs. Dr. Jan Schreurs) [June 1999]
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Isaac and Abraham’s Agony: Dialogue with Agnostic (vs. Dr. Jan Schreurs) [June 1999]
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XXXIII. BOB SEIDENSTICKER [CROSS EXAMINED BLOG]
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Seidensticker Folly #63: Answer Comfort But Never Armstrong? (ditto for Dr. William Lane Craig) [11-24-20]
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XXXIV. SUSAN STRANDBERG
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XXXV. EXTENSIVE COLLECTIONS OF SCHOLARLY LINKS DEALING WITH THE QUESTIONS AND CHALLENGES OF ATHEISTS 
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XXXVI. CHRISTIANITY, ATHEISM, SCIENCE, AND PHILOSOPHY
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Old Earth, Flood Geology, Local Flood, & Uniformitarianism (vs. Kevin Rice) [5-25-04; many defunct links removed and new ones added: 5-10-17]
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Flat Earth: Biblical Teaching? (vs. Ed Babinski) [9-17-06]
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XXXVII. ANTI-THEISM AND THE SUB-GROUP OF “ANGRY ATHEISTS”
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XXXVIII. MIRACLES
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The Resurrection: Hoax or History? [cartoon tract; art by Dan Grajek, 1985]
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XXXIX. COMMON GROUND / CONCILIATORY APPROACHES 
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Secular Humanism & Christianity: Seeking Common Ground (with Sue Strandberg) [5-25-01]

Are Atheists “Evil”? Multiple Causes of Atheist Disbelief and the Possibility of Salvation [2-17-03]

God is Merciful to All! (Fake “Church Sign” About the Possibility of Atheist Salvation) [Facebook, 12-4-06]

16 Atheists / Agnostics & Me (At a Meeting) [11-24-10]

Should We Ignore Atheists or Charitably Dialogue? [7-21-10 and 1-7-11]

My Enjoyable Dinner with Six Atheist Friends [6-9-15]

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XL. GOD (ATHEIST OBSESSION WITH THE SUPPOSEDLY NONEXISTENT) 
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XLI. ABORTION / ANIMAL RIGHTS 
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XLII. SEX, MARRIAGE, AND WOMEN
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XLIII. SECULARISM AND SOCIETY
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XLIV. “THE BUTCHER AND THE HOG”: THE ATHEIST APPROACH TO THE BIBLE
[see also related papers in the “Alleged Biblical Contradictions” section of The Bible, Tradition, Canon, & Sola Scriptura Index Page, and under “Bob Seidensticker” above, and my compilation web page of these sorts of articles: Armstrong’s Refutations of Alleged Biblical “Contradictions”]
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Old Earth, Flood Geology, Local Flood, & Uniformitarianism (vs. Kevin Rice) [5-25-04; rev. 5-10-17]
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Flat Earth: Biblical Teaching? (vs. Ed Babinski) [9-17-06]
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Death of Judas: Alleged Bible Contradictions Debunked (vs. Dave Van Allen and Dr. Jim Arvo) [9-27-07]
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Atheist “Refutes” Sermon on the Mount (Or Does He?) [National Catholic Register, 7-23-17]
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Inspired!: 198 Supposed Biblical Contradictions Resolved (free online book) [6-3-23]
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[see also numerous related posts in the “Dr. David Madison” / “Jonathan MS Pearce” / “PROF MTH” / “John Loftus” / “Ward Ricker” / “Vexen Crabtree” sections above, near the top]
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XLV. ATHEIST “DECONVERSIONS”
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XLVI. FAMOUS ATHEISTS (REAL AND IMAGINED) 
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Albert Einstein’s “Cosmic Religion”: In His Own Words [originally 2-17-03; expanded greatly on 8-26-10]
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Last updated on 6 January 2024
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